# Electrical isolation switch (RCD)



## 98136 (Mar 14, 2006)

I have purchased a CI Riviera 141.
Does anyone know where the electrical isolation switch is located because I cannot find it?
I understand I need to turn this off when connecting to european sites in case of supply issues.
Thanks

Peter


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peter

I dont know why you would switch the isolator off, I can think of no sound reasoning why this would need to be done.

Being a CI it should already be double pole switched.

I dont know where it would be, but it should with sound practice be just inside the vehicle behind where the hook up point is on the outside of the vehicle.


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Being a CI it should already be double pole switched.


Hi Peter

George I am assuming that you mean that if the van is fitted with continental type outlets they will be double pole switched or that the cutout will be double pole....but if the outlets fitted are normal UK type (13amp square pins) I think they will only be switched on the live so care needs to be exercised when connecting to an unknown supply.
If they are UK standard sockets I would advise getting a socket checker plug available at good accessory shops or Maplin.

I agree that there is no reason to switch off the Isolation switch before connecting. (but it cannot do any harm)

Mike


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Mike

I meant to ask the question does anyone know whether foriegn vans use double pole switched UK sockets?

Really need to test the next foreign van (with UK sockets) that I see.

If they do only use single pole switching, it means all the reverse polarity needs checking/sorting every stop.


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## philmccann (Jun 14, 2005)

Hi George

Mine is single pole switched. Have just come back from 3 weeks in France and FOUR times had to use the reverser to correct L-N reverses.

Definitely worth EVERYONE investing in a mains tester and a reverser plug.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Btw Phil

mathmatically if you are scared half to death twice, you are three quarters of the way there, Half and then half of whats left, so you can take as many scary rides as you like to infinity, you will always have half the previous amount left.

I was going to ask people to check whether their vans are double pole switched, but maybe not some people would probably get hurt.


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## 92046 (May 1, 2005)

*CI Riviera*

Hi

I have the CI Riviera 2000 model, and the isolation switch is built into the back of the input connector inside the MH, the ELCB and the 16 A trip switch with the test button is all part of the input unit, and has 2 x continental sockets also built in, and has a supply from one of the sockets into a junction box, then cables to feed

1 charger

2 3 x 13A sockets

3 Fridge

All lighting is 12 volt, with boiler and heater being gas with 12 volt control,

hope this helps

Colin


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> If they do only use single pole switching, it means all the reverse polarity needs checking/sorting every stop.


Hi George

Can you give one good reason why ?

You and I are both aware that AC equipment isn't polarity conscious, so there is no danger of damaging equipment and we know our 13A sockets are only single pole but unless you were a total idiot and decided to switch of say a toaster then proceed to open it up without unplugging ..... where is the danger ? Yes, it could still be 'live' if the polarity was reversed ... so what ? I can't think of any appliance that could be considered dangerous with reveresed L & N
I have never checked polarity on any site and won't in the future until someone comes up with a good reason to do so.


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## shortcircuit (Mar 19, 2006)

You are correct in that Class II appliances are able to operate with reverse polarity with no danger. 

The main danger from reverse polarity is with a fault in the fixed installation in the vehicle. In that situation a fault with reversed polarity would then make the exposed metalwork of the vehicle live in relation to earth and a highly dangerous situation. 

The sensible precaution is to check polarity on every occasion you connect to an unknown supply.

I hope the above is a good reason to check polarity as it is better to be safe than dead


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jim

_*Can you give one good reason why ?*_

Safety, although reversed polarity is not a danger in and by itself, combined with another fault it can be the error that proves fatal, you have increased the chances of any other fault killing you, certain items will become chassis live, TV aerial can now kill you or someone close to you, or even a passerby touching your van, I have been knocked off my feet by reversed polarity on a van BTW Jim it was an American with earth neutral bonded internally and it didnt operate the GFCI (RCD to you and I) Now even damp hands and using the air dryer, its only takes a few Ma to kill

Luckily the path to earth did not cross my chest directly, imagine your daughter reaching for the handrail to climb aboard, on the wrong day rev Pol could prove fatal.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

> The main danger from reverse polarity is with a fault in the fixed installation in the vehicle. In that situation a fault with reversed polarity would then make the exposed metalwork of the vehicle live in relation to earth and a highly dangerous situation.





> although reversed polarity is not a danger in and by itself, combined with another fault it can be the error that proves fatal, you have increased the chances of any other fault killing you, certain items will become chassis live


Hi George and Shortcircuit ( great name btw, not indicative I hope :lol: )

Neither of these two statements gives an explanation, in the first quote the ELCB would trip whether polarity is correct or not. 
In the second quote " _reversed polarity is not a danger in and by itself_ " the "other" fault.... what other fault? If something becomes "chassis" live why would the ELCB not trip, and why are hundreds of Spanish not electrocuted every year, Spanish plugs ' _grand enchufa_ ' can be used either way..


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi all

The thoughts in this old thread will add to the interest in this new one:

Link to "One For All the Electrical Gurus Out There" thread <<<<click

I do think that sometimes we can become paranoid about certain things....electricity ( the sort that can kill) is one of them.....but a little fear of what for most people is the unknown is not a bad thing. We must I think be careful not to lead these less electrically knowledgeable people into being complacent about safety. Some of the things that many do....like checking the incoming supply, or using polarity changing adaptor cables when necessary, can do no harm and may just once in a while save a someone from harm.

Mike


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

spykal said:


> I do think that sometimes we can become paranoid about certain things....electricity ( the sort that can kill) is one of them.....but a little fear of what for most people is the unknown is not a bad thing. We must I think be careful not to lead these less electrically knowledgeable people into being complacent about safety. Some of the things that many do....like checking the incoming supply, or using polarity changing adaptor cables when necessary, can do no harm and may just once in a while save a someone from harm.


Hi Spykal

The voice of reason and good advice or.... is it a preemptive strike by the moderator ? :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

ScotJimland said:


> Hi Spykal
> 
> The voice of reason and good advice or.... is it a preemptive strike by the moderator ? :lol: :lol: :wink:


No way Jimland ...too easy going me :lol:

mike


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## shortcircuit (Mar 19, 2006)

Shortcircuit I am an electrician and used to race F2 stock cars round the "short circuit"

In the event of a fault consumer side of an RCD, then it will trip. The Spanish use this all the time.

In the event of a fault the supply side of the RCD ie a fault to the chassis from the incoming cable then your are reliant on the RCD(if fitted) at the source to operate.

A simple test is all that is needed.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jim

Mike is suggesting that people do check for Polarity and change where needed, which is the opposite of your stance, you are saying that Mike and I are giving good advice even though its the opposite of yours?

Jim the RCD (ELCB?? how old is your van, GFCI for USA and RCD for us nowadays) did not trip on the American I refered to, thats the point under certain fault conditions you are forming part of the circuit and nothing is leaking to earth ergo the RCD doesnt trip and you (or someone else) could be killed.

Its been said before but other Countries use double pole switching and double insulated everything.

He is an example for Spain

http://www.dbicorporation.com/internat/intpower.htm

now scroll down and you will See Spain uses 2 types refered to as 16 and 18 , scroll down further you will see that one can be used either way round (16) and this product is not earthed ie the product this is for would have total double insulation,

The other is Earthed and polarity regulated, ie the plug can only go one way.

So the product is deciding whethor the polarity matters and is provided with a plug to suit, what you have suggested is that reversed polarity is not dangerous regardless and that it wont matter if the "house" is wired wrongly, obviouly it does, because in all the world there is not a 3 pole plug that can be put in either way.

Most accidents are a combination of two or more errors/faults if you leave the polarity reversed you are one step closer to harm.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

spykal said:


> No way Jimland ...too easy going me :lol:
> 
> mike


Early days yet Mike... give em time.. :lol: :lol:


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Jim
> Mike is suggesting that people do check for Polarity and change where needed, which is the opposite of your stance, you are saying that Mike and I are giving good advice even though its the opposite of yours?


I know that Jim can answer for himself but as an observer of the thread I can only say that what I think Jim is saying is that in his case he is not worried about checking for a polarity reversal himself but he can see no problem with My proposition that advising people with no practical electrical knowledge to do this may be unreasonable and that if someone does check and take steps to correct reversed polarity it can do no harm.

I do not find that a contradictory stance........
but then as I said earlier I am easy going ....and I do wish this attitude was more general on MHF.

Mike


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:
 

> Mike is suggesting that people do check for Polarity and change where needed, which is the opposite of your stance, you are saying that Mike and I are giving good advice even though its the opposite of yours?


Hi George 
I am not advising anyone, whether to check or not, I asked for a good reason to do so ... I don't want to be drawn into a long technical debate.

quote me 
I have never checked polarity on any site and won't in the future until someone comes up with a good reason to do so.
unquote.

and added :

quote me
Hi Spykal 
The voice of reason and good advice
unquote

If there is any doubt then checking makes sense, can do no harm .


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi 

Ok you asked for a reason you have been given several.

Without going into the depths of reasoning, reverse polarity can prove fatal, so check it and sort it.


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Its been said before but other Countries use double pole switching and double insulated everything.
> 
> He is an example for Spain


 8O This has been discussed (many times) before. I do the same as Jim. I don't check. Having spent the best part of 10 years living and sometimes working in Spain. I have seen some of the worst Electrical installations you could think of. Including NEW installations. I do NOT condone it. But have SEEN it. I and many others (majority?) NEVER check the polarity. :roll:


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi John

people also get away with driving like idiots, it doesnt make it safe


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

The other week someone was replacing a light fitting in an office that is on the same site as a shop I help out in. They had turned off the circuit breaker to their lighting circuit but as they remove the luminaire they tripped the 30mA RCD protecting the whole site. [Note for electricians I know that you shouldn't have an RCD in a lighting circuit but this one protects prior to the DB].

After I made my way by emergency lighting to the scene of the crime the two people involved said, how did that happen it was switched off. I explained single pole switching and that a neutral to earth short, probably as they pulled the luminaire off the wires, is enough to trip an RCD.

One of them then said that they had seen a spark! That got my attention there is no way that I would expect to see a spark in an RCD protected circuit with an earth neutral short, there isn't enough energy.

Further investigation revealed that the feed to their DB had Live and Neutral transposed as well and judging by the wire type used (7 strand twin and cpc) had been like that for very many years. When I asked how often the RCD was tested I just got blank looks. So it wasn't a neutral to earth short which catches out a few people but a live to earth fault with probably a sticky RCD.

Four things to learn

Don't let untrained and unauthorised people near electrical systems.
Test (and exercise) RCDs by pressing the test switch monthly.
Before working on a system check to see that you acheived isolation.
Live and Neutral swapped over don't present a problem until either something else goes wrong or you need to do some work.

In the case of these two handling a 6ft metal luminaire that was still live I reckon they had a lucky escape.

Regards Frank


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Now I understand what you tried to say to me,
How you suffered for your sanity,
How you tried to set them free.
*They would not listen, they did not know how.
Perhaps they'll listen now. *

For they could not love you,
But still your love was true.
And when no hope was left in sight
On that starry, starry night,
*You took your life*, as lovers often do.
But I could have told you, Vincent,
This world was never meant for one
As beautiful as you.

With eyes that watch the world and can't forget.
Like the strangers that you've met,

Lie crushed and broken on the virgin snow.

Now I think I know what you tried to say to me,
How you suffered for your sanity,
How you tried to set them free.
*They would not listen, they're not listening still.
Perhaps they never will... *


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi George

That is one of my favorite songs too...but one verse would have got your point across...but since the song lyrics are copyright consider your wrist slapped. Maybe you would like to edit the post yourself as I know you are a stickler for keeping inside the letter of the law. Just because other internet sites publish them it does not make it OK for us here to do it.

Song Lyric story <<<,click

mike


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Mike

as a pennance I have just bought the song again, actually I asked Don for permission and I am awaiting a response.

No Actually I am not a stickler for sticking inside the law, I just dont like the 2 faced people who will happily break the law, Steal, defraud and drive ilegally and yet somehow still consider themselves law abiding.


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi George

Sorry but I cannot wait for Don McLean answer and as you have already asked him for permission to publish but have pre-empted the permission by publishing I suggest that you have already put MHF in danger so, please edit your posting.

Mike


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

hi Mike

I already had before your post, my last was tongue in cheek.


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi George

Yes my last was a little TIC too, but thanks anyway.

Mike


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