# Screen condensation



## gaspode

Has anyone here solved the windscreen condensation on the Arto?

We took ours to Newark for its maiden trip and the weather was cold. We dropped the front shutter at night and all inside was cosy but the amount of condensation on the inside of the screen first thing in the morning was something else - even with the roof vent open slightly all night.

I've been trying to think of a way around this, outside insulating screens aren't really an option as the screen is so big you'd need to carry a ladder to fix them in place. I'm playing with the idea of a fan system ATM to keep the air circulating but thought I would ask if anyone has come up with a solution already that I hadn't thought of?


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## petie

*antifog*

Hi gaspode,There is a product called rain-x anti fog, which it is claimed can eliminate most of the condensation on your windows.At under £6 a bottle,it might be worth a try.


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## gaspode

Well yes, that's very true, I use it on the Triumph instead of windscreen wipers and very effective it is, but the condensation would just run off and down into the bottom of the screen then and make a bloomin great puddle. 8O 

What I need is something to stop it forming in the first place, either insulation or ventilation of some description.


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## artona

Hi

_ I use it on the Triumph instead of windscreen wipers_ I guess its true what they say about old cars - you have to love em :lol: :lol:

Outside screens are the best Ken. The Euramobil is massive and high but of cause they are strapped at the side so it is easy to put on, you don't have to get to the top. Fans and heaters are ok but you would need hookup, no good at the shows.

Vancomfort are good at making bespoke covers, I think thats going to be your only way but it will be interesting if anyone comes up with another idea.

stew


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## JockandRita

artona said:


> Hi
> Outside screens are the best Ken. The Euramobil is massive and high but of cause they are strapped at the side so it is easy to put on, you don't have to get to the top. Fans and heaters are ok but you would need hookup, no good at the shows.
> 
> Vancomfort are good at making bespoke covers, I think thats going to be your only way but it will be interesting if anyone comes up with another idea.
> 
> stew


Hi Ken,

I have to agree with Stew, the covers are easy to put on, and the temperature difference in the cab area is very noticeable, as is the lack of condensation in the morning. :wink:

The big RV owners have the same problem, as they cannot fit external screens.

Jock.


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## Rapide561

*Condensation*

Ken

If I am pitching somewhere for just one night, I often don't bother messing about with the outer screen covers, but then I do get a lot of condensation on the windscreen.

If I leave the cab windows slightly open - only a tiny amount - the condensation is reduced. It does depend on the cold etc etc.

You could try one of those little plastic things filled with crystals from Woolies etc and leave it on the dashboard. Other option, as seen on RVs was a small heater - shaped like a tube - fixed to the dash. I think these are about 100 watt or something. EAch looked to be about 18 inches long and the RV I saw with them had two in place.

R


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## bognormike

It's a problem which I think is intensified in the A class vans, Ken. In an ordinary coachbuilt, the whole of the cab area is uninsulated, and the normal draughty base chassis cab tends to give some ventilation to counter the heat build up :roll: . In the A class vans. the only uninsulated areas are the big front screen & side windows, and these are the places the condensation builds up - and of course the internal screens / blinds collect it all between the window & blind. 
Stella2 has internal blinds as supplied by Pilote (which are getting a bit tired now), and we now have decent fitting curtains inside these. We get a fair amount of condensation in cold weather. We have thought about externals, but after our initial enquiries (nothing available, Pilote supply internals....) we didn't take it further. Difficulty of fitting and storage of bulky external screens are arguments against them, but I have seen Hymer A class vans with them.

Anybody else got any thoughts?


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## rowley

I have a small 12v/240v peltier type de-humidifier which I use in my loft. I have not tried it in the motorhome although I would have thought that it would reduce the humidity, and therefore the condensation.


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## davesport

Just thinking out loud here.

Having seen the difference that an external silver screen made on my Hymer I'd be concentrating on finding a way to use them. The only solution I've found to windscreen condensation is to leave several widows wide open to allow expired water vapour to escape rather than condense on the glass. 

Would it be possible to fit stiffeners (something like thin tent poles) into the silver screen making it easier to get it to the top of the glass.

Dave.


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## mangothemadmonk

Have you had a look at these Ken?

12v Dehumidy and under £50

They do "hum" quietly but I never put mine on over night as I can't even stand the sound of a ticking clock. Rain on the roof iI love but a ticking clock :silly: :silly: :silly: drives me batty.

Johnny F


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## rowley

There are some portable 12v dehumidifiers on ebay. No bids at the moment.


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## Zebedee

Hi Ken

Not much practical help I'm afraid, but remember that the reason you get condensation on the windscreen is because it is the coldest area in the van. There is just as much water vapour everywhere else, but it obviously condenses far more on the coldest surfaces.

Therefore I think there are only two ways of reducing or preventing it . . . . . 

1). Leave the Heki and cab windows open a crack to let some of it out. Hot air rises and if Mrs Gaspode natters on as much as Mrs Zeb . . . . . 8O :roll: 

2). Find some way of keeping the windscreen as warm as the rest of the van walls and ceiling.

External screen covers are the obvious answer, and I have watched quite a stocky little Dutchman putting them on. He used a short length of what looked like broom handle and managed it very quickly and with no problem.

Being a fan of elderly motors you will remember those little 12 volt demisters with a suction pad at each end. They might work, but I doubt it. They would improve it a bit, but would be fiddly and a bloody nuisance to set up and dismantle.

I think you are stuck with two options. External screen covers or internal scuttlegate!!!!

Cheers


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## artona

HI

_if Mrs Gaspode natters on as much as Mrs Zeb_ careful Dave, never give our lady friends something in common mate otherwise with your spring there will be more than hot air rising :lol: :lol: :lol:

stew


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## 100004

The cynical answer,' if you can afford and N&B, you can afford to have someone keep it wiped down' :lol: :lol: 

Personally, I don't think there is a complete answer, only a partial one. We all know why we get condensation,just not how to completely eradicate it. I would think that bespoke outside screens,plus your interior ones wold be about as good as it gets. Ask N&B as I'm sure they have been asked the question many times . H


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## mangothemadmonk

On the ladder front, what about a set of these...

Telescopic ladders

Closes down to 0.98m, weighs only 10.6kg and 3.8m fully extended and only £99.

Them and a set of screens .....sorted.

Johnny F

Or you could sleep outside in a tent :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: problem solved.


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## JockandRita

Zebedee said:


> He used a short length of what looked like broom handle and managed it very quickly and with no problem.


Tha't's how I planned to do it initially, but didn't need the broom shaft in the end.

*Ken,* the screen on your Arto isn't much taller than Stew's Euromobile, or our Hymer, so I reckon that you'll get on well with the external screens.

As for storage, they are only used from October to March/April time, then store them at home, and use the internal cab blinds, if fitted. This leaves room for the fold away table and chairs in the same boot space. :wink: TBH, they take up no more room than a rolled up, large sleeping bag.

Jock.


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## gaspode

homerdog said:


> The cynical answer,' if you can afford and N&B, you can afford to have someone keep it wiped down' :lol: :lol:


Hmmm

Well that's the problem isn't it? It's like the guy who spends so much buying the Roller he can't afford the petrol.  Anyway, the boss won't let me take the au-pair out in the M/H for the weekend, dunno why? :?

Thanks for all the replies, some interesting suggestions. The obvious cure (as I'm well aware) is to get some outside screens and I have discussed this (if discuss is a word appropriate to this character) with Mr Taylormade at some length. He does a blind for the Arto but there are problems fixing them in place due to the height and the fact that there is nothing to attach them to on the sides. His blind needs an awning channel fixing along the top of the screen and requires having a step-ladder to fix them. He's tried different designs but that's the only one that he reckons is satisfactory, that's why I'd like to find another solution.



> Hot air rises and if Mrs Gaspode natters on as much as Mrs Zeb . . .


Oooh Mr Zeb, wash your mouth out with soapy water 8O You've obviously not met Mrs G, my advice is to keep a low profile at rallies for a while. 8) She was on her PC earlier and shouted at me down the hall "Have you seen what that cheeky **** has said about me on your condensation thread" You're living dangerously, you'll get your spring tempered if you're not careful.

Dehumidifiers? Thanks for bringing the Ebay ones to my attention, now the guy selling those on Ebay is not far from me - and I know the auction where he buys his stock I think. If he can sell them so cheap, maybe I'll have to take a stroll round there one day and see if I can get a job lot for peanuts. :idea: 
The problem with a 12v dehumidifier is of course the current consumption on 12v, far too high to leave them on all night when not on hook-up.

Moisture absorbing granules Russel? Thought of that one and tried it - simply doesn't work.

Stiffeners in the insulating screens? I'd wondered about that one too, may be worth investigating if I can work out how to secure the sides to the van. For those not familiar with the Arto, they have no cab doors and use double glazed cab side windows - yes really - proper sealed glass double glazed units. 8O They also have an insulated roller-shutter that effectively seperates the windscreen area from the living space and creates a sort of isolated section about 30cm wide behind the windscreen.

Tonights experiment will be with a 12v computer fan to keep the air moving across the screen, I'll keep you informed if it works. Meanwhile any more suggestions would be appreciated.


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## crazyhorse

Hi Gaspode
I just had external screens made by Taylormade for my year 2000 Hymer B544.
It already had aluminium channels fitted as an extra above the cab side windows but not the windscreen. I think this is the way the 'Movera' ( Hymer ) screens are attached.
Taylormade supplied a 3 part screen, with the side flaps that fit inside the side windows removed, and a 7mm diameter rope edge added along the top of the side screens.
It fits well, is fitted easily and was delivered in 3 days. The windscreen part is held in place by the three windscreen wipers and seems to be very secure.

I think this may also work for your van.
Hope this helps.


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## gaspode

Hi Crazyhorse

Thanks for that suggestion.

As I said, I've had a detailed discussion with Taylormade on the subject at Newark and he doesn't think that the idea would work on the Arto, maybe due to the extra height of the screen - I don't know, it's hard to tell sometimes with Mr Taylor. :roll:


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## 103618

*humidity at the front*

Hi
On our eura-mobil Integra there is a seperate heater in the front which blows warm air towards the front window this solves the problem, however we tend to use the external screens as they help maintain a more even tempreture through out the van, we carry a light weight platform which is about a metre long and 0.6 metre high, this makes fitting the blinds easy


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## 88781

Internal screens fitted all blinds and shutter closed, if like the euramobil start the front Truma heater in the morning to clear the screen off if not start engine and run dash aircon for 10 mins. No more condensation, that's the fix, but I'm afraid you will never stop it happening in the first instance in the cooler months, unless you sleep in the rear bedroom which helps to reduce it.

Dave


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## oldun

rowley said:


> I have a small 12v/240v peltier type de-humidifier which I use in my loft. I have not tried it in the motorhome although I would have thought that it would reduce the humidity, and therefore the condensation.


How can an electric heater reduce humidity?

It can heat up the screen so that it is above the dew point thus stopping condensation on the screen but all that will happen is the condensation will take place on some other cold surface often in a cupboard hidden from sight.

There are two major causes of condensation.

1. Too much moisture in the air - can only be reduced by more ventilation of proper air-con.

2. Surfaces too cold and below dew point. As stated above this can be reduced by raising the temperature of the surfaces.

There are at least two kinds of humidity measurement.

The first is absolute (or real) humidity and this is simply the measure of water vapour in the atmosphere. Raising or lowering the temperature cannot change this.

The second kind is relative humidity and this is the ratio of the amount of moisture in the air compared to the maximum amount of moisture the air can hold. Hotter air can hold more moisture than colder air so heating the air reduces the relative humidity.

The body responds to relative humidity. A low relative humidity means that the air can absorb a lot more moisture and so the body can sweat more easily as the exposed moisture on the skin will evaporate easily. When the relative humidity is 100% sweating will be almost impossible as the exposed moisture will not be able to evaporate.

So though heating a MH will make the atmosphere seem much drier it will still contain the same amount of moisture as before it was heated and this moisture will condense on any surface cold enough.

The dew point is the temperature the air has to be cooled to to make the relative humidity 100%.

Air con works on the principal that air is cooled to a temperature below that of the existing dew point.

Once the air has fallen to the dew point the relative humidity is 100%. Cooling the air further cannot increase the relative humidity above 100% so moisture is forced from the air leaving it at a "new" 100% humidity.

Confusing!


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## linal

Hi I tried taylormade & silverscreen for external blinds for the new Hymer & was told they had no plans to produce any in the immediate future then tried Vancomfort very very helpful may be worth a call.

Alex.


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## javea

Hi Gaspode,

Wss in France a couple of weeks ago on an aire and the German Hymer A class next to me had an external screen around the windscreen and the drivers door/passenger window on the other side. I wondered how it was secured and discovered that there were 2 round devices on each side, similar to those self adhesive hooks that you can get, although obviously make for the purpose, and the bottom and top of the screen was secured to these points.

Nothing fixed at the top of the screen and the wind was so strong it was difficult to walk against it, screens didn't move all night. Hope this helps.


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## rowley

I am a bit confused by Oldun quoting me on the de-humidifier, and then asking the question how can heating reduce humidity. :?:


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## 109659

Hi 
I tried Taylor-made and Silver screens. Got the response that they did not make them but if I rang again in six months time they would see what they could do. This was for a Dethleff globebus I3. Then I tied Van Comfort. Welcomed with open arms, full of apologies that they had not got that model in stock and there would be a delay.. Two weeks later they arrived with fitting instructions etc. ( Can be viewed on their web site). Quality and fit is really good. Bit more expensive tan the ones I had on previous coachbuilt but thes fit much better. They are going to be at the National show, Staall 157 I think.

Don


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## gaspode

Thanks again for the input all of you.  

The fan idea did seem to work last night, although temperatures here weren't that low this morning so may be a false hope (and there is a noise factor to consider).

Following the suggestion by javea03730 it seems that investigating unorthodox means of securing an outer screen may be in order. :idea:

BTW: Anyone know where you can get some of the nylon material as used on those outer screens? We may have a go at knocking up a "special".


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## takeaflight

Try Here http://www.fabricuk.com/index.php

I bought some waterproof fabric off them and had some bags made.

Worked great.

Roy


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## H1-GBV

Not a solution, more of a workaround.

I lie a microfibre towel at the bottom of the windscreen (inside) and use a large window squegee to turn the moisture into running drops. Start at the top and wipe horizontally, soak up the water and move another towel length sideways. Takes about 3 minutes every morning and the screen is reasonably clear.

Using the screen demister takes at least 15 minutes and is anti-social and environmentally unfriendy. Driving with a wet screen would be dangerous!

As oldun said - not a lot you can do about it.

Good luck

Gordon


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## peejay

Hi Ken;

Unless someone invents double glazed front screens I don't think theres any real solution to the problem, at least N&B fit double glazed side windows.

One thing that might reduce the condensation levels to a more acceptable level.....

As soon as you have arrived on site and pitched up, fully close the front shutter immediately. The theory being that you immediately isolate and hopefully stabilise the area between the screen and the shutter before its affected by the warmth generated by heating/breathing!/cooking in the habitation area.

Worth a try and costs nowt - but of course you would loose the view out of the front window :wink:

The squegee and towel method is a good tip, we often prefer just to use the internal blinds instead of exterior silverscreens and with practice it doesn't take long to clear the screen using this method.

pete


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## 88781

> BTW: Anyone know where you can get some of the nylon material as used on those outer screens? We may have a go at knocking up a "special".


PM Zaskar :wink:


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## Vennwood

Hi Ken,

We have found that in our Dethleffs by using curtains instead of dropping the shutter and leaving the roof vent open a bit we could minimise the problem. 

In our Flair with the Alde heating we switch on the reverse heat exchanger that uses the habitation heating to warm up the engine and this eliminates any cold air coming through the vents and warms up the area between the shutter and screen. A little wasteful maybe but keeps it clear

We also found that by leaving the shutter up a fraction also helped


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## waddy

*Foggy Sreens*

Hi gaspode , 
Aint got an arto but suffer the same problem with my flair 8000i its the vast area of glass behind the steel shutter that causes the problem plain and simple the solution is simple next time you are in france find a motorehome dealer with a good accesory shop they sell foil covered bubble wrap off the roll ( silversceen ) plus suction caps buy sufficient to form interior close fitting screens with suction caps at the top and middway and the same for quarterlight windows if the Arto has them ? it completly eliminates the problem in all weather conditions once trimmed to size easy to fit and remove and can be rolled up and stored on the drop down bed in transit another benifit in hot sunny conditions they reduce heat ingress to a bearable level i purchased mine from the niesman bischoff dealer at Rennes i hope this helps to resolve your dilema i had mine in use from jan to the end of july in central brittany which i consider to be a very good trial period with temperatures ranging from below freezing to the 90s .


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## 101776

Would an electric blanket help?? there must be some way of sorting this out, how do they manage in cold countries like Alaska and Finland??


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## 107088

One of the blokes I work with had the condensation problem you have, and he looked at the curtains in mine. I dont get the condensation, anyway, he made up a set of curtains, ( actually I think it was more likely his wife that made them). He used a thermal curtain material which he bought from a fabric shop. the runner was a proprietory one from an RV accesory shop and the hooks from the same.

So, it may be useful to have some to try, an alternative would be a velcro strip along the whole window and simply velcro the curtain when needed. It just keeps some of the temperature difference betwixt the salloon and front windscreen.


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## 101776

Would this help??

I found it here: http://www.rvtechtips.com/?p=63#more-63

Here is another link that might help???? 
http://ezinearticles.com/?RV,-Motor...revent-And-Get-Rid-Of-Misty-Windows&id=580068


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