# New - Auto-Sleeper - Monocoque



## Auto-SleeperAAA

Hi,

The Team @ Auto-Sleepers have a dilemma!!!

Do they introduce a New Gatcombe/Clubman SWB monocoque on a VW chassis?

Even, if it retailed @ around fifty thousand?

Or should they channel their efforts elsewhere?

And, if Auto-Sleepers did develop a new Gatcombe/Clubman what enhancements should they focus upon compared to the original?

[end]


----------



## geraldandannie

Hiya!

Interesting question. I suppose it comes down to whether you think the sales of such a beast might be impacted by the apparent rise in popularity in high-spec panel van coversions.

If I were looking for a new van, I would either want something like I have now (coachbuilt, 24ft long - I think - and fixed bed, full separate shower and bathroom), or I would want to drop down to a PVC. I wouldn't personally buy a small coachbuilt. But then, what do I know? It seems many manufacturers are making motorhomes that are similar to, or the dead spit of, our old A/S Pollensa - rear kitchen / bathroom, and either settee & pullman or twin settees.

Gerald


----------



## Zebedee

Hi Simon

I'm not familiar with the Gatcombe/Clubman, and a lot of other members may be the same.

This makes it difficult to offer a sensible opinion.

Can you post either some pictures and details, or give us a URL? Can't find anything on your website.


Dave


----------



## Patchworkqueen

Hi Simon 

This is a difficult one in the present economic climate.
As you know we have a Broadway on order but we would have preferred to buy a MH on a VW base to replace our Clubman and we would have been prepared to pay the extra.

The Sandhurst, though a nice MH on VW base, does not meet our needs because it only has a transverse bed, not good as you get older. 

Could you build on VW base offering similar option of layout and profile as the Broadway?

Other than panel van conversions we could not find anything on a VW base to replace the Clubman. I am sure that there are many loyal Autosleeper customers that would welcome a new VW coachbuilt MH.

Best Wishes Chris


----------



## geraldandannie

Zebedee said:


> Can you post either some pictures and details, or give us a URL? Can't find anything on your website.


Hi Zeb

http://www.caravans-for-sale.com/adverts/158/15832/

Spykal has something similar :wink:

Gerald


----------



## Mike48

I'm a big Autosleeper fan. They are very well built, hold their value and the conversion is trouble free. But would I buy another one? There are 2 problems for me. Firstly they no longer provide a smallish vehicle with an automatic gearbox and secondly the conversions are a tad old fashioned. The monocoque design does'nt look that much different to a model produced 20 years ago. 

Many people I speak to while away mostlty abroad tell me they are thinking of trading down to smaller vans as they are more economical to use and can be parked easily at the home. In my estimation more and more people are looking at Panel vans. What about a new Duetto based on a Renault Master or Volkswagon with an automatic gearbox option? I realise this does'nt answer the original question but I thought I would chuck in my own views anyway.


----------



## Zebedee

Panel van conversions.

Great, and I may well have gone for one . . . but I'm 6' 3".

The average height of the population has increased quite a rapidly in recent(ish) years (I used to be unusually tall, but not now!!)

I guess there are a lot of people like me who set one foot inside many vans and spin on their heels, since there's no point in going further. 8O 

Dave


----------



## ChrisandJohn

Zebedee said:


> Hi Simon
> 
> I'm not familiar with the Gatcombe/Clubman, and a lot of other members may be the same.
> 
> This makes it difficult to offer a sensible opinion.
> 
> Can you post either some pictures and details, or give us a URL? Can't find anything on your website.
> 
> Dave


Here's the URL for Todds Motorhomes, where we bought our AutoSleeper Medallion. They have internal views of a Clubman on there.

http://www.toddsmotorhomes.co.uk/online_shop/search.asp

Incidentally, when we bought from Todds last year it was, for us, a choice between a Nuevo ES and the Medallion. The Medallion won in the end because John preferred the VW chassis. If we were in the market for a new motorhome we'd seriously consider something like the Nuevo ES on a VW. Advantages over what we have now would be 4 belted seats and shorter length.

Chris and John


----------



## Mikemoss

£50,000 sounds like an awful lot of money for rather a small motorhome that is bound to look pretty much like one from the 1980s. Correction, £50,000 IS an awful lot of money etc etc

Having said all that, I can see the advantage of a monocoque body, and the benefits that a small coachbuilt should have over a PVC of similar length. 

It's just that £50,000 price tag...but I've always been a cheapskate.

Should have added that it's great for Auto-Sleepers to have taken the trouble to ask us. Much appreciated and they've gone way up in my estimation as a result.


----------



## mgb

Read the test report on the Broadway in this months Which Motorhome.
Happy wheels
MGB


----------



## Mike48

_


Zebedee said:



Panel van conversions.

Great, and I may well have gone for one . . . but I'm 6' 3".

Click to expand...

_


Zebedee said:


> You're right. I'm 6 ft 1" and could do with a bed 2" longer. But that would be possible with a Renault Master as the base vehicle is longer than a Transit.
> 
> Oh. I nearly forgot. Please please please don't buid on a Fiat of Peugeot chassis as there are many of us who would rather anything but these vehicles despite being fantastic looking and great for converters.


----------



## carol

If and when we change it would be to downsize - and a Murvi type motorhome - as opposed to the Timberland type - I don't like chintz - Don calls the Murvi, office looking - well so be it - it suits me - no frills, very good layout - my one criticism is not separate shower - but I am certain there has to be a way to sort that one area out to give you a shower without a curtain - otherwise we would have had one....but under £50k..... otherwise you are dearer than a Murvi

Carol


----------



## tubbytuba

Zebedee, all you have to do is remove a couple of coils off your spring! :roll: :lol:


----------



## peejay

I've owned 2 Autosleepers, a Symphony and a Nuevo, they were both great little vans, well screwed together but the biggest disadvantage to me and one main reason why I didn't buy another is their unsuitability for use in winter conditions. I would be looking at big improvements in this area to tempt me away from the Hymers, Laika's and Euramobils etc.

If I was in the market for a monocoque I would be looking at La Strada Nova and the Wingam range as the opposition. If you could build something along similar lines with all their practicalities and at a similar price then I might be tempted.

Pete


----------



## Zebedee

tubbytuba said:


> Zebedee, all you have to do is remove a couple of coils off your spring! :roll: :lol:


It would be too stiff then though, and I would bounce even higher.8O :lol: :lol:

Dave


----------



## tubbytuba

Zebedee said:


> tubbytuba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Zebedee, all you have to do is remove a couple of coils off your spring! :roll: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> It would be too stiff then though, and I would bounce even higher.8O :lol: :lol:
> 
> Dave
Click to expand...

Good point. You don't want to be too stiff in a small motorhome!


----------



## philoaks

Hi Simon,

We recently parted company with a Gatcombe after 3 years ownership. We've never owned a panel van conversion so can't really give a fair comparison but I would suspect that size wise, they would be very similar.

At 6'1" tall, the interior height was a little tight to say the least. We had to use the 2 singles layout as there was insufficient width to sleep across. Biggest drawback though was the size of the washroom. Just about OK for a quick wash and brushup but definitely too restrictive for a decent shower.

Having said all that, we loved the Gatcombe. The drive of the VW T4 was superb and I was confident that I could drive the van anywhere, and be able to park it when I got there! 

Our reason for changing was to upsize to a van which was more suitable for the CL type camping that we enjoy.

Whilst it's difficult to fault the monocoque built MH I think the £50K price tag would certainly put it outside my budget. There are a lot of panel vans out there at sub £40k (including your own) and I think that would limit your sales of a bijou coachbuilt.


----------



## Steamdrivenandy

If the X250 problems aren't sorted properly to the satisfaction of the motorhoming fraternity then Autosleepers might be glad they stuck with VW, despite the price disadvantage.

Also VW gives customers the option of a well engineered automatic gearbox without the need to go to the dizzy heights of 3 litres.

We considered used Clubmans/Gatcombes before our purchase of the Adria. As I recall the only reason we didn't buy one was because those that were available were all much older models and we wanted something more recent.

Isn't it about time that a UK converter produced a Hymer/Knaus/Hobby Van/Adria Compact look alike? Virtually every Continental brand has jumped aboard but the only UK candidate is the Autocruise Sportstar which isn't quite a Van van (if you know what I mean) with a much wider girth than our 7ft slim baby.

BTW I'm 6ft 2ins tall and I sleep across the Compact and only touch the sides if I really, really stretch out. 

Mind £50K is an eye waterer, especially when other converters pricing (and specs) are heading south.

SDA


----------



## yozz

I know I'm being a bit cheeky not even having a van at the moment, but seems you asked...

I think you should be shying away from that kind of price tag, and looking to something smaller, well made and reasonably priced. That's what Autosleeper is renowned for in the older models and I can't see any reason why you can't do it again.

You could move beyond the competition by incorporating pretty basic stuff like two leisure batteries and solar panels, a SOG system toilet, heating that works from the main fuel tank. Making the van more self sufficient.

If you can do that for a reasonable price I reckon you would on to a winner!


----------



## yozz

As mentioned earlier you also need to find a way to make your beds long enough to take us tall people without our feet hanging over the ends. Us tallies have to stretch out as well.


----------



## Mike48

Yoz wrote:

_"I think you should be shying away from that kind of price tag, and looking to something smaller, well made and reasonably priced...........
You could move beyond the competition by incorporating pretty basic stuff like two leisure batteries and solar panels, a Sog system toilet, heating that works from the main fuel tank. Making the van more self sufficient

If you can do that for a reasonable price I reckon you would on to a winner![/quote]_

The problem with the above post is that all the items mentioned are damn expensive that you might not even find in a £50k van.


----------



## Patchworkqueen

> You could move beyond the competition by incorporating pretty basic stuff like two leisure batteries and solar panels, a Sog system toilet, heating that works from the main fuel tank. Making the van more self sufficient.
> 
> If you can do that for a reasonable price I reckon you would on to a winner!


I'm sorry but I don't agree with the above.

Whilst I agree that a lot of MH users who contribute to this forum like to wild camp / use aires there are many more MH users who use full facility sites and may not want 2 leisure batteries, solar panels, sog and heating from the fuel tank. These are not necessary if you use EHU so why pay for something that you don't want. These are best added as extras.

Personally I don't like the Sog system and I much prefer gas/electric heating in the habitation area.

The age profile of MH owners indicate that there is a large proportion of the older generation who are looking for a well made MH on a reliable base vehicle. It must have comfortable beds (not made up from a cushion jigsaw) that is easy to make up with no ladders or steps to climb to get in and out of it. A washroom of adequate size to be usable and a kitchen that provides good cooking and storage facilities. I am not sure about the merits of a fitted oven as I rarely use it but I may be in the minority on that.
The size of the vehicle needs to be as near to 6 mtrs as is possible and fuel economy is always a factor.

Chris


----------



## Zebedee

What Patchwork said.   

I agree that wild campers must be a small percentage of the motorhoming fraternity, or the landscape would be paved with trucks in the summer months. There are far more wimps like us who prefer the comfort and convenience of a hook-up on a site for most of our trips.  

Most of those items are best fitted as add-ons by the minority who really want them.

In my opinion. :? 

Dave


----------



## Steamdrivenandy

Chris,

I've often wondered if it would be sensible for converters to offer a basic van with several different packages e.g.

The Wild Camper Package with dual batteries, solar panel, sog and diesel heating

The A La Carte Package with full oven, extra worktop, additional pan and wine storage, maybe larger fridge.

The Pet Package with fitted dog/cat crate, space for grooming table/trolley storage, internal hooks for leads etc, external hitching hooks, maybe a folded up windbreak for a secure enclosure and an external shower head.

The Haute Couture Package with additional wardrobe space and extra mirrors plus fitted hairdryer and straighteners, ironing board and fitted steam iron.

The Pedallers Package with fitted, secure, waterproof bike storage, hooks for helmets, external shower.

The Tow Package with fitted towbar and rear view camera system and the fully illustrated 1,000 page MHF Guide to A frames.

The Entertainment Package with TV/DVD/Radio, including surround sound, lighting effects including colours and faders and electric blinds/curtains.

The Drinkers Package with wine bins, additional cooled storage, selection of fitted drinking glasses, fitted corkscrew/bottle opener and a special drawer for hangover remedies.

The Loungers Package with extra cushions, electric adjustable benches/beds, electric awning, electric step, matching top of the range Lafumas and outside table, exterior 240 & 12V sockets for coffee/tea maker or wine chiller

Oh the options are endless and it'd keep the design department busy for years.

SDA


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi Andy

Sounds a really good idea. All the manufacturers have to do is to combine a few (or, preferably all) of those options into one van, and it'll be perfect for everyone! :wink:

Good post, Andy - it just shows what a difficult job the manufacturers have.

Gerald


----------



## Zebedee

Simon

Just a thought about the price tag.

I suspect we are pretty typical motorhomers. Not skint (obviously) but not made of money either, and using a retirement lump sum or similar as the basic funding for a van.

After a very short time we begin to notice the innovations and improvements on newer vans, which (paradoxically) is a bit annoying when we suggested them to you, but that's another story. :wink: 

The resultant mental anguish is inevitable. _"Do we trade up for a newer model (another Autosleeper *of course*!!) or carry on with this one a bit longer?"_

For those of us who currently consider a 40 grand van to be as much (if not more than) we can afford, I think you may be pricing yourself out of the market if your target is 50K.

On the other hand though, you gets what you pays for, and we would rather pay a bit extra and have better build quality and a few refinements. 

Sorry, I've argued myself up my own exhaust pipe, so not much use to you at all.   8O

Dave


----------



## Steamdrivenandy

Thinking on

I'm not exactly sure what sort of package the illuminated pole in our Adria fits into? 8O 

Of course you can take the whole idea further with the Scotch Drinkers Package with tartan upholstery, a stags head mounted over the dinette and a haggis catching net.

The Beer Drinkers Package with fitted spittoon and a bag of sawdust for the floor, plus gas lighting and gas cigar lighters on the worktop. 

The Nouveau Cuisine Package with smaller fridge and tiny microwave plus minute designer plates.

The Fishermans Package with fitted rod cases in the garage, fitted hook and fly drawers. Colour coded keep net. Special gutting surface on the worktop and 'optimistic' tape measure and scales. Wader hooks in the shower room and special drying cupboard for wet clothes.

SDA


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

Old designs, and modern prices is never going to be viable, especially now that money is tight, just looked at the Clubmans on Todds website, and if someone had said they were from the early 90's I would agree.

But if I were to build a new model from scratch not considering the size of the finished article, what would I want, which is a huge question, and why there is so much diversity to pick from.

I would want a Sprinter 316 chassis, with electric everything and cruise control, auto if poss, low profile, I don't need an attic bedroom, a square shower tray, with sloping central drain hole, same for all basins, a draining board, domestic sized piping, switched pump not pressure, Truma hot water/heating, (with some sort of take off for a hair drier, can't be that difficult to run some 2" pipe up to head level) auto switching fridge/freezer, somewhere for a flat screen TV to live, where you could actually sit/lay and watch it comfortably, an oven that you can cook in, a grill you can do toast under, a hob that pans sit on without falling over, built in plate and cup racks, electric panels that we can understand, similar to the old zig ones but up to date with none of these silly pressure panels that split, built in Solar panel, just enough to keep topped up, maybe inside the top of the screen, armrest on the front seats a must, forward dinette, rear fixed bed, a bin that's not in the door, if ever there was a stupid place to put a bin, that must be it.

I can't think of anything else right now, but there will be lots as soon as I post this.


----------



## Zebedee

You forgot to estimate the price Kev, but let me sit down first!! 8O :lol: :lol: 

Dave


----------



## yozz

gelathae said:


> Yoz wrote:
> 
> _"I think you should be shying away from that kind of price tag, and looking to something smaller, well made and reasonably priced...........
> You could move beyond the competition by incorporating pretty basic stuff like two leisure batteries and solar panels, a Sog system toilet, heating that works from the main fuel tank. Making the van more self sufficient
> 
> If you can do that for a reasonable price I reckon you would on to a winner!_
> 
> The problem with the above post is that all the items mentioned are damn expensive that you might not even find in a £50k van.


The sog and an extra leisure battery is only a couple of hundred pound. The direct heating wouldn't cost that much if it was built in at the factory. Most motorhomes have blown air heating now anyway. I'll agree about the solar panels being expensive but maybe it could be prewired for solar panels, so leaving it as an option if you wanted to fit them.


----------



## yozz

Patchworkqueen said:


> You could move beyond the competition by incorporating pretty basic stuff like two leisure batteries and solar panels, a Sog and heating from the fuel tank. These are not necessary if you use EHU so why pay for something that you don't want. These are best added as extras.
> 
> Personally I don't like the Sog system and I much prefer gas/electric heating in the habitation area.
> 
> The age profile of MH owners indicate that there is a large proportion of the older generation who are looking for a well made MH on a reliable base vehicle. It must have comfortable beds (not made up from a cushion jigsaw) that is easy to make up with no ladders or steps to climb to get in and out of it. A washroom of adequate size to be usable and a kitchen that provides good cooking and storage facilities. I am not sure about the merits of a fitted oven as I rarely use it but I may be in the minority on that.
> The size of the vehicle needs to be as near to 6 mtrs as is possible and fuel economy is always a factor.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough Chris it would be boring if we all agreed all the time. I just reeled off a few things from my wish-list really...
Click to expand...


----------



## zappy61

We love our Saturn (Midas) although its not produced at the moment and is probably quite rare. We don't like made up beds, preferring the space in the day, which means that the beds have to be easy to make up and comfortable. Above all the M/H has to have a feeling of space, light, and non- claustrophobic feel about it, which the co-pilot calls the wow factor. We sacrificed a separate shower for this factor as I use the on site facilities most of the time whist she prefers the on board facilities. One hobby horse of mine is the amount of space wasted under the shirts of the van which can only be utilised using (expensive) beeny boxes or other conversion options. Why can't this be addressed at the manufacturing stage? 

Graham


----------



## Steamdrivenandy

Graham,

You're final point re skirt space reminded me that the main reason we went for the type of van we now have is STORAGE.

Our previous PVC was a short wheelbase Tranny and we could seat 4 (facing front and with proper belts), sleep 2 and it had good domestic offices (as they say), but no shower. It had a 2ft deep crate across the back for our two dogs and space on top of the crate for a folded grooming trolley, folded puppy pen, folded chairs, Motordome and various other bits with space at the sides for EHU cable, levelling blocks, hose etc.

Try getting all that tidily into any Autosleeper or Swift Group product that isn't more than twice the length. Virtually impossible.

The Van type van like ours has an enormous garage (under the fixed bed admittedly) and loads of locker/cupboard space. In fact we can't think how to fill it all. If we wanted we could fit two bikes securely in the garage which would curtail the larger item storage somewhat but I'm sure there's a solution for that somewhere.

That's all in a van that's less than 4ft longer than our old Tranny and 6 inches narrower than most coachbuilts.

OK it hasn't got the bench lounging, but it seats 5 at the table and if you're really that whacked just jump into bed, using the famous lighted pole of course.

SDA


----------



## zappy61

Andy, 

You have a garage but at the cost of lounging and entertaining space plus may be a shade of claustrophobia (for us anyway). We love our layout and there is plenty of locker space including a long external locker under the rear bed but I still have some space around the skirts which could be used if I want to fork out for a beeny box etc. I suppose you won't please all of the people all of the time eh? 

Regards, 

Graham


----------



## Steamdrivenandy

I guess the point I was making was really along the lines that Autosleeper's range has been rather static over recent decades with end kitchen and end lounge on a variety of different chassis ad nauseum.

Even the panel van conversions have been samey, although the Warwick is a departure (for Autosleeper anyway) with it's rear lounge.

None of the smaller (say under 25ft) vans have what I'd call real serious storage, and trying to get our folded grooming trolley into the under bench locker of a Nuevo was a dire exercise. In these days when people drag all sorts of gear for all sorts of activities about with them I think they, and Swift to some degree are missing a large and burgeoning market. 

I can count 10 roof lockers in our Adria, plus two kitchen drawers (one standard, one deep), a bulkhead cupboard under the bed (which our girl beardie loves to sleep in), and an under basin cupboard and mirrored vanity cupboard in the shower room. After all that there's the 'garage' which is 6ft 7ins wide, 2ft 7ins deep and 3ft 9ins tall.

What I think I'm saying is that I'd love to buy a British van but nobody makes one to that sort of spec. and maybe Autosleeper ought to try and be a bit revolutionary in a quiet Worcestershire sort of way.

SDA


----------



## zappy61

We spent maybe 4/5 years looking for our next van having had Autotrail previously. We had that van 9 years and again we loved it but wanted something a little bigger. I guess its a matter of individual preference and taste and any manufacturer will have great difficulty satisfying all. Another important factor is colour schemes. When we were searching all of the European models seem to have dark overbearing colour schemes which tend to reduce the feeling of spaciousness. As a test, we always pictured ourselves sitting in the van on a cold wet night would we feel hemmed in or not? So we prefer light pastel or neutral colours schemes which seem to be rare in european models. Even so, do we ever get the perfect model that meets all our individual wants and needs? I think the answer is no and will continue to be so as it is all a matter of individual taste. There will always be a certain amount of customisation needed to tailor to individual preferences. 

A fixed bed for us just would not work and a garage would be too much (wasted) space. We have loads of internal locker space, a decent kitchen with full cooker and microwave and large fridge. A little extra external space under the skirts would have been the icing on the cake, but its a compromise. We have a toad so my fishing tackle, golf clubs etc. are carried in there. 




Graham


----------



## roamingsue

One thing I would be looking at is the ability to seat more than two passengers safely. I am very tempted by your smaller monocoques, I love them in fact BUT I cannot seat more than 1 passengers. (Need 3).

I am a lone camper but my adult children often come on holiday with me but camp separetely. 

Second thing.... I really dislike the 'Beige' theme that is going on in upholstery at the moment. Neutral Beige = boring and depressing for me! (That is personal gripe). T

Worksurface in kitchen area important for me I do cook.

External shower point is on my wishlist...... Then mud, sand etc can be hosed off outside the van. 
Fitted refillable gas system so worrying about gas refills thing of the past would be brilliant too.


----------



## tikki

zappy61 said:


> ... So we prefer light pastel or neutral colours schemes which seem to be rare in european models. Even so, do we ever get the perfect model that meets all our individual wants and needs? I think the answer is no and will continue to be so as it is all a matter of individual taste. There will always be a certain amount of customisation needed to tailor to individual preferences.
> 
> A fixed bed for us just would not work and a garage would be too much (wasted) space. We have loads of internal locker space, a decent kitchen with full cooker and microwave and large fridge. ...
> 
> Graham


Hi Graham

Totally agree with you about pastel or neutral colours. Our Autosleepers Midas always feels warm, spacious and inviting when we return to it - no matter what the weather outside.

A fixed bed for us is really important but, there are only 2 of us so the mid lounge and swivel cab seats work very well. Cycling is one of our hobbies and to have the bikes safe and dry in the garage is a great bonus.
Several years ago before we got into cycling and our daughter was with us we had a Kontiki with mid dinette and large rear lounge which was perfect for us then.
We moved on to a Swift Gazelle 63 High with a garage & fixed bed above. The only lounging space was a cramped dinette and we hated it!!!
Now - the Midas - the best we've had and would be hard pushed to fault it's layout for our needs.

Horses for courses? - of course. We love the fixed bed and rear garage but the majority prefer a rear lounge.

Chris


----------



## zappy61

Hi Chris,

Nice to find someone with a Midas. Yes it is horses for courses we love our layout and at the moment wouldn't change it. On a more technical note do you have the moulded in toilet roll holder in the wash basin cupboard? If so how do you insert the toilet roll in the holder? We find it a bit tricky.

Regards,

Graham


----------



## tikki

Hi Graham.

We don't have the moulded toilet roll holder.
I wonder if the EL and G layouts have different washbasin units?

Chris


----------



## zappy61

Hi Chris,
I think they must have. Its a great innovation because it keeps the roll dry, but the it is a sod to thread through. Had to make a threader for it.

Graham


----------



## maddie

Hi all, I have been reading this with a big smile on my face :lol: While it is nice to have all the things mentioned,beeny boxes, extra cupboards etc etc has anyone thought of why manufacturers put open shelves and silly sunroofs at the front of vans where cupboards should be ? COST 8O and weight  At 50k a van should have all the toys but straight away I can see a premium of 5k on the base unit as opposed to Fiat etc, then the cost of a highly desirable monococ which I assume is going to be a modern looking one :lol: hopefully.The VW is only rated at 3.5 t so again weight is going to be a big factor,ruling out a lot of the above B/Boxe's etc.Do people want cupboards ? as opposed to open shelves ?I know I did(Sorry we did,I did not quite get all my own way :lol: )
Will carry on watching and make further comments later/ more time.
terry


----------



## Zebedee

Yep, I think Terry has highlighted possibly the two most significant factors that influence design. 

_Not having a prod at anyone on this thread_ :wink: , but folk often want to have all the extras and goodies, but then tour the shows looking for the cheapest van they can find. The two criteria are mutually exclusive. :roll:

Then the weight factor, which again is a self destructive philosophy. More goodies equals less payload and lots of anxious nail biting every time you approach a layby full of yellow jacketed gentlemen!!! :evil:

Trouble is, items of equipment that count as "basic essentials" nowadays were largely optional extras a few years ago.

This means that the starting point for both cost and weight has increased quite significantly in comparison with vans of even only 15 or 20 years ago.

Hmmmmmmm. Autosleepers designers have a tough job in hand!! 8O 8O

Dave


----------

