# Motorhome Parking Ban Exmouth seafront.



## Devonboy (Nov 19, 2009)

Devon County Council has issued a TRO banning motorhome parking along various parts of Exmouth seafront.: Having read previous posts re Rother Council I cannot see how this is legal. Have spoken to the local council who tell me that there was an update to the relevant laws to specify Motorcaravans. Any ideas? Have only just seen this & the closing date is 22nd March 2018. Not very well advertised, strange that.

Devon County Council (Exmouth Seafront)
(Prohibition of Motor Caravans & Various Restrictions) Amendment Order
Devon County Council propose to make this order under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 to introduce in EXMOUTH
No Waiting At Any Time in specified lengths of Maer Road & Queen’s Drive (eastern spur);
Pay & Display (Tariff Exmouth B) all days 24 hrs: 1st Apr-30th Sep inc bank hols 1 hour £1.10, 2 hours £2.20, 4 hours £4.40, 8 hours £6.60, 24 hours £11, 1st Oct-31st March inc bank hols excl Christmas Day 1 hour 60p, 2 hours £1.50, 4 hours £3, 8 hours £3.80, 24 hours £6.60 in specified lengths of Maer Road & Queen’s Drive (eastern spur);
Prohibition of Motor Caravans At Any Time in specified length of Queen’s Drive;
Prohibition of Motor Caravans 8pm-midnight & midnight-8am in specified lengths of Imperial Road, Maer Road & Queen’s Drive (eastern spur);
Disabled Badge Holders At Any Time in specified lengths of Queen’s Drive (eastern spur).
Draft order, plans & statement of reasons may be seen during usual office hours at the address below in main reception & Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri 9am-6pm, Sat 9am-4pm at Exmouth Library. Draft order, order being amended & statement of reasons at devon.cc/tro from 1st March until 22nd March.
Objections & other comments specifying the proposal & the grounds on which they are made must be in writing to the address below or via devon.cc/tro to arrive by 22nd March 2018. Receipt of submissions may not be acknowledged but those received will be considered. A reply will be sent to objectors if the proposal goes ahead. If you make a submission this will form part of a public record which may be made publicly available.
1st March 2018
reference IMR/B15044-5651
County Solicitor, County Hall, Topsham Road, Exeter EX2 4QD
Statement of Reasons
Following discussion with Exmouth Town Council and East Devon District Council, parking facilities for Motor Caravans will be made available in off street car parks. To encourage Motor Caravans into the new facilities it is proposed to make an order to prohibit overnight parking for Motor Caravans along Imperial Road, Maer Road and Queen’s Drive spur road and to prohibit Motor Caravans at Any Time along sections of Queen’s Drive.
To provide additional parking capacity during the summer months it is also proposed to introduce Pay & Display parking along sections of Maer Road. Additional sections of No Waiting at Any Time are also proposed on Maer Road to prevent obstructive parking.
Specifically, the order is for preserving or improving the amenities of an area through which the road runs.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Surely they must give more notice than this, 21 days effectively.


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## Devonboy (Nov 19, 2009)

Yes it is a very short timescale especially as I have been on holiday, the DCC website states that the order can be viewed & commented upon for at least 21 days.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm not up on such things but there must be rules they have to follow, not just whack out mandates with little or no opportunity to appeal or comment.


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## Devonboy (Nov 19, 2009)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> I'm not up on such things but there must be rules they have to follow, not just whack out mandates with little or no opportunity to appeal or comment.


Opportunity is stated here: Objections & other comments specifying the proposal & the grounds on which they are made must be in writing to the address below or via devon.cc/tro to arrive by 22nd March 2018.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Ask them specify EXACTLY what LEGAL definition of “Motor caravan” they are using and where you might find that legal definition. Point out the fact that motorhomes have never had a legal definition and are (by legal definition) just a motor car. If they say they have come up with their own definition demand to know under what particular statute they have the legal power to do so. Don’t be fobbed off, they will try and waffle, stick at it and insist on them proving to you they have the power to do what parliament has failed to (define a “Motor caravan”) it’s a bit like a “Scooter” (Think Vespa or Lambretta) everyone CALLS them scooters, but by legal definition they are in fact “Motor bicycle” So the council could not legally ban a Scooter, because legally, there is no such thing, same with motorhomes. 

There is NO legal definition of a motor home they are, by legal definition,in the Con and Use Regs, merely “motor cars” the same as there is no legal definition of caravan, they are simply a trailer. 

Good luck and keep us all posted.

Andy


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## Devonboy (Nov 19, 2009)

Mrplodd said:


> Ask them specify EXACTLY what LEGAL definition of "Motor caravan" they are using and where you might find that legal definition. Point out the fact that motorhomes have never had a legal definition and are (by legal definition) just a motor car. If they say they have come up with their own definition demand to know under what particular statute they have the legal power to do so. Don't be fobbed off, they will try and waffle, stick at it and insist on them proving to you they have the power to do what parliament has failed to (define a "Motor caravan") it's a bit like a "Scooter" (Think Vespa or Lambretta) everyone CALLS them scooters, but by legal definition they are in fact "Motor bicycle" So the council could not legally ban a Scooter, because legally, there is no such thing, same with motorhomes.
> 
> There is NO legal definition of a motor home they are, by legal definition,in the Con and Use Regs, merely "motor cars" the same as there is no legal definition of caravan, they are simply a trailer.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info Andy, have done as suggested.


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## Robell (Mar 13, 2013)

Mrplodd said:


> Ask them specify EXACTLY what LEGAL definition of "Motor caravan" they are using and where you might find that legal definition.
> Andy


Isn't the fact that on your V5 document your MH is specified as 'Motor Caravan' going to be their argument back?

.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Good point, not sure how much DVLAs description would have legally, it is more of a descriptive for RFL purposes I think.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Good point, not sure how much DVLAs description would have legally, it is more of a descriptive for RFL purposes I think.


Correct!!

There are in fact very few actual legal definitions of vehicles (lots of types, but that ain't the same)

A motor caravan is a motor car. A council cannot just ban a motor caravan, just like they cannot ban a red car, or a blue estate car, or one with fluffy dice hanging from the rear view mirror etc etc. They can put up a sign but would have huge difficulty if someone (like me) decided to fight any prosecution.

Andy


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Phew, glad about the fluffy dice Andy, was worried for a sec there  D


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## Devonboy (Nov 19, 2009)

*Question re risk assessment*

Still awaiting a response from Devon County Council regarding the question of what constitutes a Motorhome. In the meantime I have managed to obtain the brief from the Project Team and it is amazing what assumptions can be made by people in office.

*4.**Risk assessment and safety standards*

4.1.Taking the step of formally offering a facility for overnight sleeping in campervans and motorhomes does of course open up a new area of risk for this Council. Whilst the most likely customers are those already sleeping overnight in their vehicle on the highway in Exmouth, there will be a number of steps that we will need to build in in order to ensure that risks are properly assessed and managed. One of our key safeguards will be a minimum separation between vehicles staying overnight of 6 metres.

4.2.The key risk to consider will be risk of fire but it is clear that customers will need to take personal responsibility for managing their own risks as well. Whilst fires in tents, caravans and motorhomes are not uncommon due to indoor cooking with gas cylinders, barbecues and smoking indoors, due to separation rules the risk of whole campsite fires is minimal.

4.3.Small sites usually advise people to keep a bucket of water outside their vehicle where there are no on-site fire-fighting facilities. We can also make it a condition that anyone using our facilities has an appropriate fire extinguisher on board.

4.4.Prior to implementing this scheme we will carry out a risk assessment in consultation with the fire officer and we will also produce a management plan that recognises the standards that would apply to licensed touring camp sites. We may also produce a code of practice leaflet to hand to drivers (or leave on their windscreen) when patrolling the car parks.

I have never *ever *come across a small site advising keeping a bucket of water handy. Has anyone?


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

I think the Red painted bucket of water marked FIRE is something that the Camping and Caravan Club used to (still do?) insist is placed externally by the door of a caravan. 

The 6m gap might be an issue. I was on an Aire in Grance many years ago and some muppet parked SO close I couldn’t fully open my habitation door 

At least it would appear that the council are looking at providing a dedicated MH parking facility rather than just banning them all. If you can get an email for whoever is looking into it and publish on here I am certain there are many who will email their support! I had loads when the idea was floated in Weymouth UNTILL a councillor (or 2) with a vested interest got it all knocked on the head!

Stick at it!!

Andy


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## Devonboy (Nov 19, 2009)

Mrplodd said:


> I think the Red painted bucket of water marked FIRE is something that the Camping and Caravan Club used to (still do?) insist is placed externally by the door of a caravan.
> 
> The 6m gap might be an issue. I was on an Aire in Grance many years ago and some muppet parked SO close I couldn't fully open my habitation door
> 
> ...


Just responded to one of the Councillors involved quoting Canterbury Park & Ride: https://www.campercontact.com/en/un...me-parking-new-dover-road-park.aspx?fromsso=1

They do not deem a 6 metre gap necessary.

They are also talking about turning off the gas at night. I have replied to the Councillor pointing out the issue with this idea & offering to show them what modern MH.s contain. Await their reply.


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## Devonboy (Nov 19, 2009)

My response to the council:

Mark Williamson.
Regarding your statements below:

With regard to your request for the Notes, this is being dealt with by the Exmouth Town Clerk. You will understand that these cannot be made available with redacting any names of members of the public who have submitted evidence, photographs etc. over many years. I do not have these Notes on my system*. I am still awaiting a response from the Exmouth Town Clerk.*

Meanwhile, if you let me know where you live in Exmouth I can supply the names of your local councillors with whom you may wish to discuss this subject. *My local councillor for the Brixington area is Maddy Chapman. However her comments at the Exmouth Town Council meeting on 7th August 2017 clearly demonstrate her animosity towards visiting Motorhome owners. Comments including "should be on a caravan park"; "only come here because it is cheap", together with her suggestion of erecting a height barrier at the life boat station then laughing at the prospect of Motorhomes taking the roof off as a result hardly forms a basis for a meaningful dialogue about Motorhome parking on the seafront.*

I think the project to provide overnight parking for Motorhomes in some of Exmouth's carparks is admirable, although unless the proposed supply of fresh water & waste disposal is not forthcoming the idea will not gain full support by the Motorhome visitors. I fully support the idea of restricting overnight or indeed long term parking of Motorhomes along Imperial road & Maer Road. I also fully support any measure to restrict the length of overnight stays along the seafront and to resolve the issue of over length Motorhomes encroaching on the footway along the seafront. However I believe banning Motorhomes from overnight parking along the seafront is a step too far and for no valid reason. Similarly banning Motorhomes from the sand dunes part of Queens Drive is also unnecessary in my view, especially as the bays on the Echelon parking area being restricted to 5.6 meters means that only Campervans & not Motorhomes are able to use the bays. Please note that Campervans will not have the facilities of Motorhomes namely on-board waste tanks; on-board freshwater tanks & toilet cassettes, so the likelihood of the discharge of grey waste onto the highway is potentially higher.

I have other concerns:

The report into the project states:

4. Risk assessment and safety standards

4.1. Taking the step of formally offering a facility for overnight sleeping in campervans and motorhomes does of course open up a new area of risk for this Council. Whilst the most likely customers are those already sleeping overnight in their vehicle on the highway in Exmouth, there will be a number of steps that we will need to build in in order to ensure that risks are properly assessed and managed. One of our key safeguards will be a minimum separation between vehicles staying overnight of 6 metres. *This is over engineering, whilst many sites, especially Caravan & Motorhome Club sites stipulate a 6 metre gap other councils that have implemented an overnight parking scheme have not felt the need to implement this rule e.g. Canterbury Council Park* https://www.campercontact.com/en/un...me-parking-new-dover-road-park.aspx?fromsso=1

4.2. The key risk to consider will be risk of fire but it is clear that customers will need to take personal responsibility for managing their own risks as well. Whilst fires in tents, caravans and motorhomes are not uncommon due to indoor cooking with gas cylinders, barbecues and smoking indoors, due to separation rules the risk of whole campsite fires is minimal. *The Government Fire statistics database from 2016/2017 shows that out of a total of 155,370 reported vehicle fire attendances; 106,882 were car fires ( 31.7m registered = 0.33%); 1882 were caravan fires (500,000 registered = 0.37%) & 1250 were motorhome fires (250,000 registered = 0.5%) so the incidence of Motorhome fires is no greater than either cars or caravans, not exactly a key risk.*

4.3. Small sites usually advise people to keep a bucket of water outside their vehicle where there are no on-site fire-fighting facilities. We can also make it a condition that anyone using our facilities has an appropriate fire extinguisher on board. *In all my years of Motorhome travels both UK & abroad I have never come across a site, no matter how small, that has advised keeping a bucket of water close by. Indeed there are many complex electrical systems on the modern Motorhome that make the use of water extremely undesirable. *

4.4. Prior to implementing this scheme we will carry out a risk assessment in consultation with the fire officer and we will also produce a management plan that recognises the standards that would apply to licensed touring camp sites. We may also produce a code of practice leaflet to hand to drivers (or leave on their windscreen) when patrolling the car parks. *Good idea. Although I understand that one of the T's & C's for using the CP would require turning off the gas overnight. I believe you are misunderstanding the way a modern Motorhome works. Without electric hook up a Motorhome will run all of its systems on gas, to include fridge, freezer, heating & cooking. They are designed to the highest safety standards & are perfectly safe to have the gas on permanently, including whilst travelling as the gas heating can be used whilst travelling. *

I have made a FOI request to EDDC to supply the details of all complaints regarding Motorhome parking on Exmouth seafront. The reply was a total of 5 complaints. 1 was a noise complaint regarding a noisy generator & 4 were regarding the discharge of grey waste onto the carriageway. These issues can be dealt with using current legislation & whilst these incidents should not be tolerated, hardly warrant the banning of all Motorhomes as a result. Indeed by your own figures you believe that around 5000 overnight stays per 26 week season would be envisaged, 5 complaints is hardly justification to ban all Motorhomes.

From the minutes of the meetings regarding the TAFF I feel that the majority of Motorhome owners are being penalized for the actions of a very few. It also seems to me that the TAFF does not fully appreciate the lifestyle of the Motorhome holiday nor the facilities in a modern Motorhome. I would be more than happy to share with you the facilities & workings of a modern Motorhome.

Regards.


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## Devonboy (Nov 19, 2009)

Information on representations:http://eastdevon.gov.uk/consultation-and-surveys/parking-places-order-in-exmouth/

Unfortunately looks like no online way of objecting, only by post.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Mrplodd said:


> I think the Red painted bucket of water marked FIRE is something that the Camping and Caravan Club used to (still do?) insist is placed externally by the door of a caravan.
> 
> The 6m gap might be an issue. *I was on an Aire in Grance many years ago* and some muppet parked SO close I couldn't fully open my habitation door


Is that somewhere between France and Germany Andy? :grin2:

re: fire buckets and the C&MC ...we stay on their sites and they do not insist on having a fire bucket nor have even mentioned it.

Graham :smile2:


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## teljoy (Jul 4, 2005)

Devonboy said:


> Still awaiting a response from Devon County Council regarding the question of what constitutes a Motorhome. In the meantime I have managed to obtain the brief from the Project Team and it is amazing what assumptions can be made by people in office.
> 
> *4.**Risk assessment and safety standards*
> 
> ...


I bet they have never heard of Aires. What on earth would we do in France with those kind of rules. I guess the french assume we have a brain??

Terry


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## Devonboy (Nov 19, 2009)

The Traffic Regulation Order banning overnight parking on parts of Exmouth seafront & totally banning from other parts is to be discussed at the Devon County Council (DCC) Highways And Traffic Orders Committee (HATOC) this Thursday 19th April 2018.

It is listed on the agenda thus:

*"Proposed Prohibition of Motor Caravans & Various Restrictions, Exmouth*

Report of the Chief Officer for Highways, Infrastructure Development and Waste.

Please note that the following recommendations are subject to consideration and determination by the Committee before taking effect.
Recommendation: It is recommended that:

(a) the responses to the advertised Traffic Regulation Order are noted; and
(b) that approval is given to make and seal the Traffic Regulation Order as advertised".

*"Consultations/Representations.*

A statutory consultation was undertaken in March 2018 and 8 representations were received to the proposed prohibition of vehicles order. A summary of the representations is shown in Appendix IV to this report.

After consideration of the comments received it is recommended that the TRO is made and sealed as advertised and a review is conducted after two years".

Interesting that of 8 representations 7 from the public were objecting & 1 from the council supporting but still the Officer recommends approval.

My objection statement to DCC :

I object most strongly to the imposition of this Traffic Regulation Order for the following reasons:

1. How can you ban a vehicle that has no legal definition? What is the legal definition of a Motor Caravan & what statute or regulation have you obtained that definition from? The Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) regulations 1984 defines what the requirements are for the various classes of vehicle. A Motor Caravan does not appear as a specific vehicle class, they are "motor cars".

2. Exmouth Town Council & East Devon District Council have made numerous statements regarding the many complaints received over the years from members of the public. Under the FOI rules I have asked both DCC & EDDC for the number & full details of these "many" complaints. To date DCC has not replied even though the request is overdue & EDDC responded with a list of 5 complaints made. 1 a complaint regarding a noisy generator & 4 complaining about discharge of grey waste. Both of these issues can be dealt with under current legislation so there is absolutely no justification for a blanket ban on Motor Caravan parking on the sea front. EDDC own figures used to estimate the potential income from using the car parks for overnight stays quote usage as 26 weeks at 7 nights for 30 vehicles. This totals 5460 nights spent in one year or 27,300 overnight stays in the last 5 year period but only 5 complaints received in the period. This does not justify the banning order.

3. ETC & EDDC have both stated that they are committed to increase visitor numbers & tourism spend. This scheme will drive Motor Caravan owners away from Exmouth as they will consider the town to be non-friendly to Motor Caravans. Discussions by the council concluded " A number of issues have been considered including the desire to encourage visitors to use one of our legitimate licensed camp sites alongside the fear of undermining their viability by inadvertently creating a cut price alternative camping offer at arguably a more desirable location". This is not the case & I think there is a miss-understanding of the way Motor Caravan owners choose to holiday. There are approximately 250,000 registered Motor Caravan's in the UK & those that choose to visit Exmouth & park on the seafront do so for the view. If banned they will not use one of the "legitimate licensed camp sites" they will simply move to other Motor Caravan friendly towns. One of ETC's Councillors stated at the EDDC Cabinet meeting 29th November 2018 that Motor Caravan owners only come to Exmouth "because it is cheap" & "a height barrier should be erected by the RNLI station". This clearly demonstrates that certain elements within ETC & EDDC wish to ban Motor Caravans for any reason & do not see why "they" should be allowed to overnight on the seafront.

4. You state as one of the reasons for this TRO "Specifically, the order is for preserving or improving the amenities of an area through which the road runs". Whilst I can appreciate this may be true for Imperial Road & Maer Road I fail to see how this can be said of Queen's Drive. This just appears to be a vague catch-all in an attempt to justify the banning of Motor Caravans.

And yet this was supposedly noted & the Officer response was:

"Motor caravan has the same meaning as in Regulation 2(1) of the Motor Vehicles (Type Approval) (Great Britain)Regulations 1979, which is defined as follows: "Motor caravan" means a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users".

"It is not feasible to differentiate between small van based vehicle and large motor homes when signing on-street parking restrictions. Provision for motor caravans is being proposed by East Devon District Council in off-street car parks, including Queens Drive echelon, which has sea views".

Now that is some summarizing. Looks like DCC are intending to ignore all objections & approve this TRO. Interesting that the issue of differentiating has been completely fudged. Also no answer regarding which legal statute has been used.

Still awaiting an answer to my FOI request asking for details of any complaints received by DCC now long overdue & internal review requested.


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