# "Non-potable"water?



## grizzlyj

Hi

When we've travelled to wilder parts of the UK, you often get told the water from the tap is probably OK, is used by the locals with no problem, but perhaps you as a visitor should use bottled (or have a decent filter perhaps?)

Two campsites south of Tagounite in Morocco have tap water from tanks on stilts, open to the elements, birds, sand etc, and as well as having their own seperate and limited drinking water from taps in both cases near their kitchens. The tanks aren't obvious, neither is where the tap water designated for camper filling comes from. When we arrived we were told we could fill the tank with drinking water, but after a few days and we needed some we were told no way could we do that, the site only gets 200l of clean water per day from a tanker, you can have 20l max.

While doing some clothes washing we noticed the water getting sandier, the campsite staff said its just sand, what do you expect, whats the problem etc etc, so we dug out a 50 micron (4euro) filter we'd packed as an after thought to keep the washing as sand free as possible.

As you can see from the video clip linked too, it caught more than we expected! Some bits are sediment, some bits swim back upwards again though!  I'm sure there are smaller bugs too that will fit through this relatively coarse filter, but hopefully mildly dosing the tank at every fill will kill everything!

http://www.youtube.com/user/mogletinmorocco#p/u/0/LVH-3cCUngY

This is probably a rarity at these more basic and remote campsites, but definitely something to bear in mind rather than just trust what the locals tell you. Would you shower in the water from your water butt at home?!

Tagounite location http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en...code_result&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CCkQ8gEwAg


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## aldra

It depends, when we lived in Israel nearly 40 years ago we got all our water from a cistern which was sprayed regularly to kill mosquito larva
and I guess other things

Our next home all water had to be drawn from a well, clothes left to soak in the water from either source were biologically cleaned :lol: :lol:
We couldn't have afforded bottled water and I'm not sure it was available then, and certainly not in our price range

Still we and 6 children survived

Now I use bottled water if its not going to be boiled, the other things are extra protein :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Aldra


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## grizzlyj

aldra said:


> It depends, when we lived in Israel nearly 40 years ago we got all our water from a cistern which was sprayed regularly to kill mosquito larva
> and I guess other things
> 
> Our next home all water had to be drawn from a well, clothes left to soak in the water from either source were biologically cleaned :lol: :lol:
> We couldn't have afforded bottled water and I'm not sure it was available then, and certainly not in our price range
> 
> Still we and 6 children survived
> 
> Now I use bottled water if its not going to be boiled, the other things are extra protein :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Aldra


Its the taps you know! They look cheekily like the ones at home, so having never had a tap that things could swim from under their own steam, my western mentality assumes a tap will at least give you clean water, if not drinkable. The water in the clip above just looks slightly cloudy in a bucket.

Putting all those little critters in your camper tank and leaving in a nice warm place all day is not something I'd choose to wash with, but without the filter I wouldn't have known they were there at all!

We are quite lucky in the UK!

Jason


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## 24Seven

grizzlyj said:


> Tagounite location http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en...code_result&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CCkQ8gEwAg


Off topic, but that area of Morocco is stunning IMO, did you cross the "crater" ? ( ~20 miles N/E from Tagounite)

Here

I have always drunk bottled water in Morocco and after seeing your video I'm glad I did 8O


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## Penquin

Excellent piece of video showing a freshwater shrimp as far as I can see (_Gammarus species_),

not what you'd want to drink, but very common in freshwater. I do not know if they carry any diseases and would not really want to find out.

I suspect a good dose of chlorine would stop their activity.......

I wonder how an AquaPure filter would deal with any potential underlying bugs in the supply?

Dave 8O


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## grizzlyj

24Seven said:


> Off topic, but that area of Morocco is stunning IMO, did you cross the "crater" ? ( ~20 miles N/E from Tagounite)


Hi

Yes.  Locals in Mhamid sell very average looking rocks they may have picked up a few yards from their shop as "maybe" asteroid 










Unfortunately the track had taken its toll on us at that point, and we were keen to find something smoother! The track west from here was atrocious, my wife had her feet on the dashboard to keep her in the seat. Very hot, and surrounded by slopes of black rock, with the evening sun coming through the windscreen!

It was certainly a lovely expanse before that ascent/descent/ascent/descent. Should have some pics soon!

Penguin, can you see the little pinhead dots thats look like a spec of dirt but then decide to swim in another direction?
And since I'm sure you know these things, its possible there would be a large number of animals in such a water sample that could swim straight though a 50 micron hole? Is that a twentieth of a mm?


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## scouter

Hi

Its generally not the live things you can see the in the water but the effects of dead things that cause problems with a water supply. Yes seeing the live things isn't very nice but filtering the water will get rid of most, but a 50micron filter is rather coarse.

A 5 or 1 micron filter is better. A 1micron filter will also remove cryptospiridium and other cysts which give rise to some nasty tummy bugs.

For our camping barn with a spring supply in the Yorkshire Dales, we use a 5 micron roughing filter for all the water and a 1 micron filter for drinking and teeth cleaning etc.

30 or 40 years ago we used fo find stuff like that in some of our water supplies in this country until the rules were changed the water industry privatised and big money put into the infrastrucure, (water treatment works, treated water storage and water mains ). 

The cleanliness of the water in the UK (and Europe) now makes us even more susceptible to tummy upsets abroad as we're not used to the bugs in the wate, so don't build any resistance to them 

Outside europe I would definitely think about adding a filter under the sink in the van.

cheers alan


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## grizzlyj

Hi Scouter and thanks for the info.

We have a PreMac filter in the van which provides safe drinking water (if no excessive levels of heavy metals or fertilisers etc), but I was wondering what sort of livestock the 50 micron filter was still letting through.

This is the first instance of me finding evidence to justify the regime I've been following, Katadyn Micropur Forte in every tankful, and occasioanlly 1 Milton tablet per 100 litres (as recommended by Milton, but frowned on by many!) 

I posted the video to hopefully illustrate what you could be adding to the tank unknowingly, especially if the campsite owners themselves are perhaps ignorant of, or just aren't fussed about the water quality!

This link has a lot of helpful info about water quality and treatment

http://www.katadyn.com/fileadmin/user_upload/katadyn_products/Downloads/Water_Guide_EN.pdf


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## zappy61

Penquin said:


> Excellent piece of video showing a freshwater shrimp as far as I can see (_Gammarus species_),
> 
> not what you'd want to drink, but very common in freshwater. I do not know if they carry any diseases and would not really want to find out.
> 
> I suspect a good dose of chlorine would stop their activity.......
> 
> I wonder how an AquaPure filter would deal with any potential underlying bugs in the supply?
> 
> Dave 8O


Hi Dave,
I think it is more likely to be assellus aquaticus which is more common in water supplies (even in this country) than one might think. They are a fresh water animal similar to a wood louse and sometimes called a 'water louse' and get into the mains by eggs or young animals getting through the filters at treatment works. Although unpleasant they are harmless most of the time unless they are hosting other pathogens which they can sometimes do. They live on the iron oxide and other particulate matter in iron pipes and as more and more polyethylene is used is helping to reduce the problem. They are fairly resistant to low doses of sodium hypochlorite and how we used to remove them was with the use of permethrin by controlled injection which stuns the creatures dislodging them from the pipe wall where they cling, and wash them out into fine meshed sampling nets. Water filters will remove them but the filter medium needs regular maintenance as their decomposition will inevitably created populations of bacteria and become a potential source of infection. From the video clip the turbidity of the sample does give cause for concern and unless you have a very good filter then boiling is the best alternative.

Regards,

Graham


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## Rapide561

*Water*

A bit off topic, but last week I cleaned out my fresh tank as best I could. I drained the tank and took the service hatch hole cover thing off and reached in - not nice - sand, silt, grit and all sorts at the bottom of the tank. I put the hosepipe in the tank and turned it on high and swished all the rubbish out. The sediment settled in my bucket and I was amazed where it had all come from.

That said, after 5 years of drinking motorhome water daily, I am still here to tell the tale.

Russell


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## zappy61

*Re: Water*



Rapide561 said:


> A bit off topic, but last week I cleaned out my fresh tank as best I could. I drained the tank and took the service hatch hole cover thing off and reached in - not nice - sand, silt, grit and all sorts at the bottom of the tank. I put the hosepipe in the tank and turned it on high and swished all the rubbish out. The sediment settled in my bucket and I was amazed where it had all come from.
> 
> That said, after 5 years of drinking motorhome water daily, I am still here to tell the tale.
> 
> Russell


Hi Russell

No different to service reservoirs; the sand and grit comes from borehole sources not harmful in itself. The silt and sludge comes from river or catchment sources and/or airborne infection which supports microbiological growth, which is why they have to be cleaned and disinfected regularly.

Regards,

Graham


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## grizzlyj

zappy61 said:


> similar to a wood louse


Not knowing anything about such things I would have said it looked more like a woodlouse, with legs slightly more outboard than a shrimp perhaps 



zappy61 said:


> how we used to remove them was with the use of permethrin by controlled injection
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Graham


People complain their water bills are too high, yet you imagine all the people behind the scenes with tiny needles, mask and snorkel in place making it even more tricky, chasing all these tiny creatures to keep the UK water supply clean! Amazing! 

Thanks all for the replies


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## Grizzly

As I understand it the problem with a lot of the water in Morocco is that it has a high magnesium sulphate content ( Epsom salts). This will give you the runs in a big way as it is an excellent laxative. Filters and sterilising tablets will deal with biological content and to some extent other contaminants but there is no way of removing the salts other than by distillation - a bit pricey on gas as well as being a faff.

This surely is why you are advised to _ drink _ bottled water.

G

Edit: Those fighting in the deserts in the war were often laid low by diarrhoea caused by epsom salt intake rather than biological agents- or even bullets. It can be dangerous for anyone with kidney problems - or anyone at all ,in exceess


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## TeamRienza

Evening all,

Interesting thread, however the thing I can never understand is;

Whilst advice is frequently given to only drink bottled water in places were the tap water is of unknown or dubious quality:

How can I be sure of the quality of bottled water. Especially if bought in the locality were one would not drink the tap water?

Is there an Internationally agreed standard or process to sourcing and bottling, and surely one of the big marketing ploys is that the water is 100% natural, 'filtered through volcanic rock' etc.

I know that Coca Cola in Northern Ireland had to withdraw their River Rock bottled water when people discovered it was only locally sourced mains supply tap water at hughely inflated prices!! PR faux pas.

I seem to recall that in the UK bottled water would not meet with EU drinking water standards. Too much bacteria I think.

Any way I am sure someone will have a logical answer, for which I thank you all in advance.


Davy


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## Grizzly

TeamRienza said:
 

> How can I be sure of the quality of bottled water. Especially if bought in the locality were one would not drink the tap water?


Good question !

Some of the mineral water available- including expensive designer stuff- contains more dissolved mineral salts than I would consider safe if I was a kidney disease sufferer. I know you are advised to make sure you -not the waiter- open any bottled water you might order in a restaurant to make sure that it has not been taken straight from the tap.

G


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## grizzlyj

Hi

There have been reports on the HUBB forum of people wandering around in souks and discovering a man refilling water bottles and using a resealing lid machine to make his tap water look like branded bottled water, but I don't know how truthful those comments are.

Most of the 5l bottles get delivered to the shops shrink wrapped as pairs, so that another layer of difficulty someone would have to go to resell tap water.

You could fork out for a bottle with a filter in it which is expensive but unobtrusive like I suggested to Grizzly a while back;

http://www.lifesaversystems.com/

Or a filter to sit on top of a glass or bottle which is not perhaps something you'd want to do on a restaurant table like the Travel Well Ranger or Tourer from here, about £60

http://www.pre-mac.com/CIV_P1.HTM

Either of these you could put your shop bought bottled stuff through if you were worried and thought it worth it.


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## Grizzly

grizzlyj said:


> Hi
> 
> There have been reports on the HUBB forum of people wandering around in souks and discovering a man refilling water bottles and using a resealing lid machine to make his tap water look like branded bottled water, but I don't know how truthful those comments are.


I make no judgement about the souks of north Africa but the warning I had was from a London magazine about restaurants in UK !

G


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## grizzlyj

I should have also put in my above post you could use a Steripen with regard to bottled water you don't entirely trust. You immerse the tip in the water, press a button, it emits a light of certain wavelength and the bugs are hopefully entirely dead, but not removed. 

That won't make all water drinkable, but if its filtered, or as clear as tap water should be, a Steripen should kill any remaining nasties, assuming you have batteries and its working properly. Some I think also use a chemical you need to carry too. Some high street outdoorsy shops have them, like Cotswolds for instance. 

If a bottle has been filled in a dirty back street shop however, you could clean the water, but the mouth of the bottle will still be a possible source of disease  The golden rule of doing what the locals do then comes in. Where we founds bugs swimming free most locals didn't drink the groundwater, only bottled, so shops had bottles piled up outside that everyone was buying. A 5l bottle I think was 10Dh, so not too much for locals, and super cheap for a Euro tourist.

If the water is cloudy and you need to filter it, then you may as well have a filter like the 2 above. The PreMac will clog up slowly over its claimed lifespan, so when its full you bin it. The Lifebottle is cleanable, so gets a longer life, and a replaceable cartridge for slightly less than a new bottle. But more use day to day on a long trip I think 

With a clear bottle, in an equatorial country, you could also just leave the bottle in the sun for a few hours, that does a good job too.


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## zappy61

*Drinking Water*

Hi All,

When faced with water from a dubious source testing for a chlorine residual will indicate if the water has been chlorinated or not and if the latter then it is probably not safe to drink (see my article Testing for Chlorine Residual in Drinking Water)
If there is no residual then you could resort to a filter or bottled water or treat the water with the with chlorine of the correct strength (see my article Precautionary or Emergency Treatment of Drinking Water. There have been some instances of water bottles being refilled and sold on so the seal should always be checked to see it is not broken. Countries within the EU conform to the EU directive on water quality which sets out the limits for chemical composition and also the bacteriological condition of the water. Countries outside the EU normally adopt the World Health Organisations Directive on water quality but nothing is guaranteed. 'Epsom Salts' or magnesium sulphate is contained in most waters from underground sources it's what determines the hardness of the water, in Victorian times it considered medicinal and was called 'taking the water's'.

Hope this helps,

Graham


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## Grizzly

*Re: Drinking Water*



zappy61 said:


> 'Epsom Salts' or magnesium sulphate is contained in most waters from underground sources it's what determines the hardness of the water, in Victorian times it considered medicinal and was called 'taking the water's'.


Graham; there is a _vast difference _ - several hundred parts per million- in the magnesium sulphate content of potable water in UK compared with water from low-rainfall, desert areas. Strict rules exist in UK governing the sulphate content of drinking water as it is unsafe to drink water with high concentrations.

Those spa towns - like Epsom- where the ground water contains a considerable amount of magnesium sulphate, were renowned for the laxative effect of their waters- very good for the bloated and constipated but not something most of us would wish to suffer from on a holiday trip with a cassette loo !

G

Edit to add:

"Epsom Spa

......'Epsom' he wrote, 'is a very famous and much visited place, very pleasant, and that because of the water which lies not far from there in a valley, which is much drunk for health reasons, having purgative powers, .

The practice of the drinking of the water is early in the morning and from then until 8, 9, 10 o'clock. It is drunk on an empty stomach from stoneware mugs holding about one pint. Some drink ten, twelve, even fifteen or sixteen pints in one journey, but everyone as much as he can take.

And one must then go for a walk, works extraordinarily excellent, with various funny results. Gentlemen and ladies have their separate meeting places, putting down sentinels in the shrub in every direction. It has happened that the well is drunk empty three times in a morning, in hot and dry summers when the water has more strength."

See also:

Since magnesium is excreted by the kidneys, people with heart or kidney disease should not take magnesium supplements except under their doctor's supervision.

It is very rare to overdose on magnesium from food. However, people who ingest large amounts of milk of magnesia (as a laxative or antacid), epsom salts (as a laxative or tonic), or magnesium supplements may overdose, especially if they have kidney problems. Too much magnesium can cause serious health problems, including nausea, vomiting, severely lowered blood pressure, confusion, slowed heart rate, respiratory paralysis, deficiencies of other minerals, coma, cardiac arrhythmias, cariac arrest, and death.

More common side effects from magnesium include upset stomach and diarrhea.

Magnesium competes with calcium for absorption and can cause a calcium deficiency if calcium levels are already low. Some medications may lower magnesium levels in the body. These include chemotherapy drugs, diuretics, digoxin (Lanoxin), steroids, and certain antibiotics.


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## Pudsey_Bear

The "NOT DRINKING WATER" signs have always puzzled me, and to be honest I've never taken much notice of them as we only use bottled water in the MH for drinking, and teggy brushing.

But I've always wondered if you're going to put water pipes in, why not have it potable, why have two pipes, and where does the NON potable come from.

The above refers to the UK only.


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## zappy61

*Re: Drinking Water*



Grizzly said:


> zappy61 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'Epsom Salts' or magnesium sulphate is contained in most waters from underground sources it's what determines the hardness of the water, in Victorian times it considered medicinal and was called 'taking the water's'.
> 
> 
> 
> Graham; there is a _vast difference _ - several hundred parts per million- in the magnesium sulphate content of potable water in UK compared with water from low-rainfall, desert areas. Strict rules exist in UK governing the sulphate content of drinking water as it is unsafe to drink water with high concentrations.
> 
> Those spa towns - like Epsom- where the ground water contains a considerable amount of magnesium sulphate, were renowned for the laxative effect of their waters- very good for the bloated and constipated but not something most of us would wish to suffer from on a holiday trip with a cassette loo !
> 
> G
> 
> Edit to add:
> 
> "Epsom Spa
> 
> ......'Epsom' he wrote, 'is a very famous and much visited place, very pleasant, and that because of the water which lies not far from there in a valley, which is much drunk for health reasons, having purgative powers, .
> 
> The practice of the drinking of the water is early in the morning and from then until 8, 9, 10 o'clock. It is drunk on an empty stomach from stoneware mugs holding about one pint. Some drink ten, twelve, even fifteen or sixteen pints in one journey, but everyone as much as he can take.
> 
> And one must then go for a walk, works extraordinarily excellent, with various funny results. Gentlemen and ladies have their separate meeting places, putting down sentinels in the shrub in every direction. It has happened that the well is drunk empty three times in a morning, in hot and dry summers when the water has more strength."
> 
> See also:
> 
> Since magnesium is excreted by the kidneys, people with heart or kidney disease should not take magnesium supplements except under their doctor's supervision.
> 
> It is very rare to overdose on magnesium from food. However, people who ingest large amounts of milk of magnesia (as a laxative or antacid), epsom salts (as a laxative or tonic), or magnesium supplements may overdose, especially if they have kidney problems. Too much magnesium can cause serious health problems, including nausea, vomiting, severely lowered blood pressure, confusion, slowed heart rate, respiratory paralysis, deficiencies of other minerals, coma, cardiac arrhythmias, cariac arrest, and death.
> 
> More common side effects from magnesium include upset stomach and diarrhea.
> 
> Magnesium competes with calcium for absorption and can cause a calcium deficiency if calcium levels are already low. Some medications may lower magnesium levels in the body. These include chemotherapy drugs, diuretics, digoxin (Lanoxin), steroids, and certain antibiotics.
Click to expand...

Hi Grizzly,

In the UK the standard for sulphates in drinking water is 250mg/l but this is only a guide and not a strict limit but all suppliers I believe try to conform to it. There is no standard at all on magnesium as this is considered to be naturally occurring and of course determines the hardness of the water. The worst I ever came across was a private well supply which was over 1000 mg/l which they had consumed for many decades with (so they say) no ill effects although they were part of the aristocracy :roll:

As I have never been to Morocco I don't know what the content is but it is probably more likely that the runs will be caused by bacteria due to poor hygiene and/or storage facilities.

Regards,

Graham


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## Grizzly

Kev_n_Liz said:


> The "NOT DRINKING WATER" signs have always puzzled me, and to be honest I've never taken much notice of them as we only use bottled water in the MH for drinking, and teggy brushing.
> 
> But I've always wondered if you're going to put water pipes in, why not have it potable, why have two pipes, and where does the NON potable come from.
> 
> The above refers to the UK only.


Springs, wells etc. If you drink your own non-mains water then that is up to you.

If you are going to make it available to others as drinking water then it must be properly tested and passed fit for consumption.

If all you want to do is use it to wash the farmyard, vans , water gardens etc then it must be labelled as not fit for drinking.

We used to have a supply and it was called "red water" and the tap was also painted red as a reminder.

G


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## Grizzly

*Re: Drinking Water*



zappy61 said:


> As I have never been to Morocco I don't know what the content is but it is probably more likely that the runs will be caused by bacteria due to poor hygiene and/or storage facilities.


Quite possibly Graham, if untreated water is drunk. What I am saying is that the water in desert locations, because of the high magnesium content in the local soils, contains considerably more magnesium than is safe or desirable.

Removing the biological and some heavy metal content via a filter or other treatment, will not make the water potable in that it will still have a considerable laxative effect.

The effect on British and allied troops fighting in these deserts- despite treated water- is well documented !

Many years living and bringing up children in Africa has made us rather aware of the quality of our water and what can be done to make it potable in both biological and mineral content.

G


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## grizzlyj

*Re: Drinking Water*



zappy61 said:


> but it is probably more likely that the runs will be caused by bacteria due to poor hygiene and/or storage facilities.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Graham


Hiya

My wife and I have lived in our camper for the last 3 years, so have a well established cooking and water regime. Every bit of water either comes through the PreMac filter or gets cooked. The campers fresh tank has Micropur Forte always added, and the occasional Milton tablet in a one tablet to 100l as they recommended. While in Morocco for nearly 5 months this year all meat was pressure cooked when we bought it. We didn't eat out very often, so our food was always prepared inside our camper, clean surfaces, no flies etc. The meat from markets was sometimes killed there and then, but wether it was or not soap is a rarity and dirt and flies common. A couple of restaurants and auberge kitchens catering to tourists looked clean enough, but we never saw soap when being nosy. One had no running water either.

We took a month getting as far south as Figuig, then spent 3 weeks there. In those first weeks we had no problem, in Figuig everyone still drank the ground water but through a pressurised managed piped supply. The same water was used for watering the palms, gardens etc, and the salty deposits left once it had evaporated/soaked in was very noticeable, as was a small effect in a laxative way. Because we blindly thought the filter would remove anything that would harm us we carried on drinking the filtered water.

Over the next month we headed further south, until reaching Mhamid and no locals we talked to drank the ground water. It left the same salty edge to where the plants had been watered, and the effect on both of us was quite marked, especially on my wife.

Leaving Marrakech we were heading off into some remotes areas so bought quite a bit of bottled water just to ensure we had enough. Drinking almost only that straight away the laxative effect eased, and stopped entirely with me. From then on we were in the same environment but with minimal upset with my wife only which did take a while to disappear.

Once we headed further north we reverted to the campers filtered water with no further problems.

So broadly speaking, if there were salty deposits where water had been and the locals drank it I was fine my wife was a little upset. Salty deposits and the locals didn't drink it then nor could we.

Contacting the filter manufacturer on return confirmed not only that mineral deposits would be untouched, but the life of the filter would also be slightly reduced.

Entirely circumstantial but to us fairly evident that desert ground water can be bacteria free but still not good to drink in some areas.

Jason


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## NeilandDebs

*water Morocco*

We are in Morocco at the moment and will be until Feb12. We only drink bottled water. Water sourced from tapes at campsites we use for cooking,and showering etc.


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## kanarie

water in marokko 
sources could be open water or sources 
transport channels could be plastic concrete or lead pipes 
storage in watertowers 
all these could give a mineral taste ,chlorid, lead or pollution .
our europe body system is not used with the bacterials and so on in the maroccon water.When you live here you become used to itt .
Still we use bottle water or boiled water .when you eat in a restaurant ask for bottle water and chech the plastic if it ia a original bottle 
greetings kees


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