# Sticky  PLEASE READ - this could be a life-saver



## Penquin

This very sad event is being reported by BBC News;

Caravan deaths

it concerns two tragic deaths currently being investigated by the Police and HSE as potentially a Carbon monoxide linked incident.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE check you have a properly fitted and functioning carbon monoxide alarm in your motorhome.

It could be YOUR life that is saved, or that of your loved ones.....

Thanks, for bearing with me - you can hopefully see why I "shouted" in the title - for which, my apologies if it has caused offence.

Dave


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## wakk44

A timely warning at this time of year.The most likely scenario is that they had the heating on all night and went to bed and a fault developed with the heating system which caused poisonous carbon monoxide fumes to leak into the caravan.

I haven't got a carbon monoxide detector fitted in the motorhome but intend to get one now,thanks for the heads up Dave P.


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## 113016

Agree Dave! We have two carbon monoxide and two smoke alarms fitted to different area's of our van


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## daffodil

This is not only sad but avoidable ,

This was one of the first posts I got involved with on this site and as qualified Gas fitter I had expounded upon this very scenario,

They should be a legal requirement,Mandatory I.E no arguements what so ever (non of this freedom of choice drivel)

The properties we Rent out in the UK have to have a gas certificate and smoke and carbon monoxide detectors fitted as well as electrical etc

Here is mine in the Daffodil fitted and working (hypocrite I aint)


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## wobby

The cost of carbon monoxide detector is so little that it's a no brainer not having one in a van. Those most at risk are the vans with the old type fire that vent through the roof as these fire are not balance flue and therefore not room sealed. I believe the new ones, such as the Truma S type, are now all room sealed and therefore present no hazard. However better safe than sorry and fit a C/O detector.

Wobby


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## Zebedee

> wobby said:- I believe the new ones, such as the Truma S type, are now all room sealed and therefore present no hazard.


Didn't know that Wobby, so thanks for today's "_something new_"! :wink:

I would still have an alarm though - just in case. I'm a bit cavalier about some of the ultra-safety practices we are told to adopt these days, but carbon monoxide isn't called "_The Silent Killer_" for nothing!

Dave


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## Penquin

I knew that Truma's are room sealed, but the oven and the gas hobs are not of course....

I have also heard of people using the small Cadac inside......

I was told that Lidl have CO alarms cheap w.e.f. Monday but cannot find any link to it, so it may be an old offer, but B&Q have them from £13.74 and if you wait till Wednesday and use your Diamond card that comes down to less than £12.50

What price a life?

Please, encourage anyone that you see or know to ensure that they have one fitted, and that it has been checked to be working.......

Dave


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## rosalan

Fortunately we have both alarms fitted but the sad thing is that many of the least expensive vans and older vans that would perhaps be most susceptible to gas leaks or possibly faulty equipment, may be the last to have extra money spent on alarms.
Either Aldi or Lidles were selling these alarms last year I believe, at a very low cost.

As Pequin says DO NOT DRIVE WITHOUT A MONOXIDE ALARM fitted. .

Alan


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## barryd

I think I got ours from B&Q a few years ago. £10-15 something like that. 

Its housed about chest height 2-3 ft above but set back from the fire in the back lounge. I just got some of those wonderful 3M sticky velcro things and stuck it on the shelf. Dead easy, even for me.

I never leave the heating on all night though anyway.

Years ago a mate of mine and myself nearly copped it on a boat. Flipping thing had no heater so after a boozy lunchtime on a cold day back at the boat in the front cabin I (stupidly I know and I know better now) lit the two gas rings to warm the place up. 8O 

We were both completely zonked out an hour later with both rings still lit and it was only my pal off another boat who came banging on the door to see what we were up to that woke us, just in time I suspect. We both had really bad headaches for ages.


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## blondel

Lidle email today - from 26th Jan. 
http://www.lidl.co.uk/en/our-offers-2491.htm?action=showDetail&id=20221&ar=10


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## wobby

Years ago a mate of mine and myself nearly copped it on a boat. Flipping thing had no heater so after a boozy lunchtime on a cold day back at the boat in the front cabin I (stupidly I know and I know better now) lit the two gas rings to warm the place up. 8O

We were both completely zonked out an hour later with both rings still lit and it was only my pal off another boat who came banging on the door to see what we were up to that woke us, just in time I suspect. We both had really bad headaches for ages.[/quote]

That would've been terrible, seven years of MHF without you, doesn't bear thinking about.

Wobby :wink:


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## barryd

Yes Wobby! Just look how I have enriched all your lives and provided thousands of posts about breaking things and how to fix them.

Near death experiences seem to follow me about for some reason. Never get on a plane or a ferry if Im on it. I am banned from the Channel Tunnel.


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## mistycat

barryd said:


> Yes Wobby! Just look how I have enriched all your lives and provided thousands of posts about breaking things and how to fix them.
> 
> Near death experiences seem to follow me about for some reason. Never get on a plane or a ferry if Im on it. I am banned from the Channel Tunnel.


See why I paid my subs for another year,
just to keep an eye on what this fella gets up too,
:lol: :lol: :lol: 
Misty


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## Penquin

> *mistycat said; * just to keep an eye on what this fella gets up too,


you forgot to add;



> *mistycat should have added; * and stay well clear......


I realise it was probably just a slip of the fingers..... :lol:

Dave


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## barryd

See! I should be on a commission. Get that Virtual Periscope lot to send me a free case of Leffe at least!!!


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## patmyhead

we have a B&Q monoxide detector fitted it states that it does not detect gas only carbon monoxide 
read on another forum that a gas detector is not necessary as the gas is heavy so falls to the floor & as the van is not fully air sealed the gas escapes 
not sure on this may fit a gas detector as well


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## cabby

No one has said with any conviction where to place the detector in relation to the trauma heater. Have we a gas approved person who can enlighten us.

cabby.

Please don't start the ,we put ours here because ,posts on this one, as we really do need the correct knowledge.


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## Penquin

cabby said:


> No one has said with any conviction where to place the detector in relation to the* trauma *heater. Have we a gas approved person who can enlighten us.
> 
> cabby.
> 
> Please don't start the ,we put ours here because ,posts on this one, as we really do need the correct knowledge.


I am not being a smart-ar$e but I hope that you meant Truma heater......

I was sat there thinking what??????

Ours is placed on the ceiling outside the cupboard that houses the Truma - it is where the device said to install it - away from windows and near any possible sources so is mid-way between the hob/cooker and Truma, working on the principle that IF the Truma gives off carbon monoxide the detector is not far from where we sleep and is above us as HOT gases will rise and if it is coming from the Truma it is likely to be warmer than the normal gas in the vehicle, but we don't operate the gas heating when we are asleep......

I don't know if others agree with that placement but it seems to be OK for us.......

Dave


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## cabby

I don't always proof read, sorry Dave, did it get the old palpitations going there.Mind you this blooming presumptuous spelling does not help.

Did I not read that the detector should be around the bed height.

cabby


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## Tissy

wobby said:


> The cost of carbon monoxide detector is so little that it's a no brainer not having one in a van. Those most at risk are the vans with the old type fire that vent through the roof as these fire are not balance flue and therefore not room sealed. I believe the new ones, such as the Truma S type, are now all room sealed and therefore present no hazard. However better safe than sorry and fit a C/O detector.
> 
> Wobby


Just because an appliances is room sealed dosn,t mean its safe.
i am a gas engineer and can confirm that the appliance needs regular servicing and when the seals break down its no longer "Room Sealed"
tissy


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## Penquin

http://www.safefiredirect.co.uk/Page/15/how-and-where-to-install-a-carbon-monoxide-detector.aspx

says at the height of where people are sleeping......

it also says not on a ceiling UNLESS it is more than 15cm from the wall and if n a wall at least 15cm below the ceiling.....

This one (from HSE UK) says that as CO is lighter than air it SHOULD be fitted to ceilings and should NOT be low down.....

http://www.hseni.gov.uk/co_detector_advice.pdf

This one says NOT non a ceiling, but kept at head height and stood on a surface at least 1m from any possible source......

http://www.co-bealarmed.co.uk/how-to-stay-safe/fit-an-alarm/

ALL of them, and many others say "NO SPECIFIC ADVICE CAN BE GIVEN, REFER TO THE MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS" - which IMO is about as much use as a cat flap on a submarine.....

Sorry Cabby, no definitive advice from me......

Dave


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## GMJ

Our MH came with a fitted gas alarm (just plug into 12v socket ) and a battery smoke alarm. I have also fitted a battery carbon monoxide alarm too so we are 'belt and braces'


Silly not to really


Graham:smile2:


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## Easyriders

We have a CO alarm and our Truma warm air heating is balanced flue. However, we would never, ever leave the heating on while asleep! If the van is warm when going to bed, and we have decent bedclothes and perhaps a hot water bottle, why would we need heating as well?

If it was that cold, we'd go home!


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## GMJ

...it might be a bit nippy in the morning?


We were away between Xmas and NY and it was -6 degrees outside when we got up:surprise:


Nice and toasty in the H though with the heating on:smile2:


Graham:smile2:


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## JanHank

We have a _Fire angel carbon monoxide alarm _and a round _Fire angel alarm _which I assume is the smoke alarm. Neither are situated where the Truma gas heater and cooker are, but on the ceiling above the sleeping area. They where obviously put there by Auto trail. Are you telling me they are in the wrong place. We often sleep with the heater on gas.:surprise:
Jan.
BTW Caravans have to have an MOT and gas check every 2 years here in Germany


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## Easyriders

If it's nippy in the morning, turn the heating on, put on the kettle, and get back into bed while everything warms up.


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## prudence

Thank you xxxxx very sad news


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## Benimar owner

hi guys just found this site  my wife and myself have just purchased our very first motor home together we pick (isobel) up on the 23rd june 

whilst talking to the sales guy it was the first thing he mentioned did we want a carbon monoxide detector fitted so we agreed but he also did say that its advisable if on 240 volt hook up to have a small fan heater for night use

i remember my father always turning the gas off of a night and draining the pipes of gas which i have always done in my old converted vans when i was a lot younger

great site 

Ray


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## GMJ

Hi Ray and welcome.:smile2:


As you know gas-wise - propane should be good for winter as butane doesn't turn to gas below a certain temperature (5 degrees I think but its low whatever).


If you are on sites with EHU I guess if you have the option you would be on electric heating anyway. We MH throughout winter so keep the electric heating on low at night so it cuts in as and when. I then turn it up at sparrow fart so that its nice and toasty when Mrs GMJ gets up.


If you wild camp I guess its a personal thing as to whether you leave the gas heating on low or not. If it were me I would have no issue with it as being too cold would mean that our MH days would be over for Mrs GMJ as she does not react well to the cold. I too cant see the fun in coming away from home to be cold :smile2:


Smoke alarm and CO detectors are sensible (and cost so little). We also have a plugged in gas detector as well which cost more but I do like to be belt and braces.


Graham:smile2:


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## nicholsong

Benimar owner said:


> hi guys just found this site  my wife and myself have just purchased our very first motor home together we pick (isobel) up on the 23rd june
> 
> whilst talking to the sales guy it was the first thing he mentioned did we want a carbon monoxide detector fitted so we agreed but he also did say that its advisable if on 240 volt hook up to have a small fan heater for night use
> 
> i remember my father always turning the gas off of a night and draining the pipes of gas which i have always done in my old converted vans when i was a lot younger
> 
> great site
> 
> Ray


Ray

Welcome to MHF which stands, in my mind, for Many Happy Friends - although I have heard different versions of the 'F'

CO alarm sounds sensible.

Turning off the gas at night precludes wildcamping AND running the fridge, so I suppose you gave up one or the other, which?

Geoff


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## dovtrams

Individual responsibility but, why not hard-wire these alarms and a fire one into the 12 volt system when these very expensive vehicles are being built?

Dave


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## 747

My information is that Carbon Monoxide is very close to Air density and should not rise or sink quickly. As Dave (Penquin) pointed out, if it is caused by a heat source then it will rise in the warm air around it.


Nobody has mentioned Fridges yet. I have yet to own a motorhome where the Fridge was sealed off properly from the interior of the van. As we are never on a hookup, our Fridge runs on gas and there is a danger of Carbon Monoxide being formed due to potential problems like rust, cobwebs, blocked Flue etc.


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## barryd

747 said:


> My information is that Carbon Monoxide is very close to Air density and should not rise or sink quickly. As Dave (Penquin) pointed out, if it is caused by a heat source then it will rise in the warm air around it.
> 
> Nobody has mentioned Fridges yet. I have yet to own a motorhome where the Fridge was sealed off properly from the interior of the van. As we are never on a hookup, our Fridge runs on gas and there is a danger of Carbon Monoxide being formed due to potential problems like rust, cobwebs, blocked Flue etc.


Oh thats great. Now the fridge is going to kill us. More likely the contents will get me first! 

Isnt the fridge just using a tiny flame though thats vented out the side of the van so its all contained? Ours runs all the time sometimes for months on end on gas. Mind you on a couple of occasions we have had bother with it where its got muck and rust in the burner so its not lighted. Had to blow it out with an air compressor so not self contained then really. :frown2:


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## 747

barryd said:


> Oh thats great. Now the fridge is going to kill us. More likely the contents will get me first!
> 
> Isnt the fridge just using a tiny flame though thats vented out the side of the van so its all contained? Ours runs all the time sometimes for months on end on gas. Mind you on a couple of occasions we have had bother with it where its got muck and rust in the burner so its not lighted. Had to blow it out with an air compressor so not self contained then really. :frown2:


If it has a nice blue flame ...... you are probably OK ...... for a while. :serious:

If a little spider creeps in through one of the vents ...... it's curtains for you and the Mrs.

ps. Can I have yer boots?


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## aldra

You will be killed by cabon monoxide

If not then gassed

Your phone will pack up

Your mifi password will fail

You grandkids will get through despite all this desperately needing money in order to survive, but they will pay it back sometime , maybe , they are travelling Europe on a gap year in which they are working, obviously not enough

Your keys from the key lock will be locked in the house so no one can get in

Including your cleaner who was to clean everything ready for your return

And you need to pay her anyway because it's not her fault, it's her Christmas money

Your houseplant will be dead from lack of water

So sod it

Open the wine

You will prob be dead soon anyway

So toast life

Sandra


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## MEES

Where are u Sandra?


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## aldra

We are at Haro

Sandra


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## Garcia

Re Barryd's post...I believe the gas is heavier than air so you're better off fitting it at FLOOR level as the gas accumulates there before affecting higher areas....
please correct me if I'm wrong....


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## 747

Garcia said:


> Re Barryd's post...I believe the gas is heavier than air so you're better off fitting it at FLOOR level as the gas accumulates there before affecting higher areas....
> please correct me if I'm wrong....


I am correcting your erroneous information. Please read my earlier post.

I may have saved your life today. 0

You are lucky because I am not renewing my subscription. If I had not been a subscriber you could be a goner. :surprise: :wink2:


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## aldra

What do you mean you are not renewing your subsciption heathcliffe?.

No more on the lonely moors

Heartbroken 

Sandra


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## 747

aldra said:


> What do you mean you are not renewing your subsciption heathcliffe?.
> 
> No more on the lonely moors
> 
> Heartbroken
> 
> Sandra


You only have until 30/11/2015 if you want any rumpy pumpy Sandra. After that, I am gone for good. :kiss: Your 2 toyboys (Barry and Tuggles) will have to step up to the mark. I know they are ill equipped to be gigolos, so just close your eyes and think of England. :frown2:


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## Pudsey_Bear

Odd place to notify us Jim, be sad to see you go though, may we ask why?


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## 747

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Odd place to notify us Jim, be sad to see you go though, may we ask why?


Because of all the trouble caused by the flower boy. Also getting sick of argumentative threads on forums. If I am unable to join in, I will have a quieter life.


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## HermanHymer

So who you gonna argue with now if no forum?
Someone knocked the stuffing outa ya?
Why so glum?


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## Pudsey_Bear

747 said:


> Because of all the trouble caused by the flower boy. Also getting sick of argumentative threads on forums. If I am unable to join in, I will have a quieter life.


I see your point Jim, but he's gone, and it takes two to argue, problem is some will make a point, someone else will disagree with it which is fine, but some will carry on until they either give in or shout them down, I'm happy to give in as there isn't much on here worth arguing about, and life is too short to spend it arguing with A holes who disagree with me when I know I'm right, even if it doesn't happen often, so do stay, I for one value your input, (mostly) and all site need at least one gnome > >


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## Pudsey_Bear

HermanHymer said:


> So who you gonna argue with now if no forum?
> Someone knocked the stuffing outa ya?
> Why so glum?


I'd be glum too having to look art that ugly dog, not sure which end is best either.

I'll get me coat.


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## aldra

Traitor 

Wooed me on the lonely moors

And dumped me

Skinflint £12.50 

And I'm not worth it

Now I'm really devastated

Why

We need you here

Sandra


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## jncrowe

I know smoke alarms are fitted high up 
But are monoxide alarms to be fitted high low or mid level 
I'm about to go to B&Q so I suppose it will say on the box


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## Pudsey_Bear

jncrowe said:


> I know smoke alarms are fitted high up
> But are monoxide alarms to be fitted high low or mid level
> I'm about to go to B&Q so I suppose it will say on the box


I got mine from there for the new owner to fit (still not done it) in the last van, they do both alarms in a box so a bit cheaper and they are good quality, wait til Wednesday and get your 10% discount > >


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## dghr272

Kev_n_Liz said:


> I got mine from there for the new owner to fit (still not done it) in the last van, they do both alarms in a box so a bit cheaper and they are good quality, wait til Wednesday and get your 10% discount > >


Oh oh kev, Wednesday is pensioners discount, she looks far too young 0


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## Pudsey_Bear

dghr272 said:


> Oh oh kev, Wednesday is pensioners discount, she looks far too young 0


Noooooooo


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## pippin

Carbon Monoxide is roughly the same density as air.

I have fitted them (note - plural) at roughly nose level.

One by the (fixed) bed and one in the hab area - but not too close to the hob to avoid constant FAWGIs.


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## Penquin

always nice to see a thread which IMO is SOOO important being chatted on again....

the problem and the answers remain the same, we all need to be aware and act accordingly.

I would say try to follow the instructions in the package as closely as possible and would agree 2 is better than 1....

Thanks,

Dave


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## david-david

I know I'm picking up an old post, but I feel it's really important.

Sometimes I feel like I'm bit of an old fuddy duddy for banging on about "elf and Safety" but it's part of my day job and it's kept me alive more times than I care to remember. I bring that mindset into my private life as well.

I did a video about this not that long ago before I saw this post -


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## JanHank

Question Dave, why don't they do what the used to do and put the fridge exhaust outside the van.?

Here is what I mean on our old Musketeer, the fumes were taken directly out not staying inside the fridge cavity.


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## Pudsey_Bear

Nice to see ya back David.


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## raynipper

Yes, welcome back as I have to keep searching for your very informative videos for others to benefit from.

Ray.


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## david-david

JanHank said:


> Question Dave, why don't they do what the used to do and put the fridge exhaust outside the van.?
> 
> Here is what I mean on our old Musketeer, the fumes were taken directly out not staying inside the fridge cavity.


Hmmmm......That's a very interesting question.

I think your old Musketeer may not have conformed to the latest EU directive....whatever that is!


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## JanHank

One of Hans' s next projects :grin2: has to be something he can remove and plug for the Tüv (mot) :grin2:


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