# Help with seatbelt legallity, Im new!!!!



## MullburyAP (Jul 18, 2013)

Hi all, Im new to this forum & new to motorhoming this year (best thing i ever did i have to say)

I have a 2010 Autotrail Apache 4 berth and could do with knowing the legality of carrying passengers. I ask as i only have two seats with seat belts (driver & passenger) Is it legal to carry passengers in seats without belts or do i need to add belts to seating. :?: 

Look forward to hearing from you experts. Thanks in anticipation


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

hello and welcome!

It is possibly legal to travel with passengers in side facing seats, but can be very dangerous, and not just for the passenger who may get thrown about in a crash, they may hit those in the "legal" seats when flying through towards the windscreen......

there's been alot of posts about this old conundrum. :roll: Here's one

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-138342-0-days0-orderasc-seat.html

why manufacturers make motorhomes with more berths than they can legally carry passengers is beyond me. :x


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

MullburyAP said:


> Hi all, Im new to this forum & new to motorhoming this year (best thing i ever did i have to say)
> 
> I have a 2010 Autotrail Apache 4 berth and could do with knowing the legality of carrying passengers. I ask as i only have two seats with seat belts (driver & passenger) Is it legal to carry passengers in seats without belts or do i need to add belts to seating. :?:
> 
> Look forward to hearing from you experts. Thanks in anticipation


See page 8 of the link below;
http://www.auto-trailvr.co.uk/media/downloads/brochures/2010 brochure.pdf

Specifically the comment from Autotrail that;
"New European Legislation (EC Directive
2005/39/EC) states that to travel in a
sideways facing seat with a seat belt 
is unsafe and that from 20th October
2007, new vehicles will not be allowed
to be registered with sideways facing
designated travelling seats"

What does your V5c say is the number of designated seats?


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

What may be legal pales into insignificance with what your insurer says.

You need to ask them their attitude to the carrying of unbelted passengers.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

Have a look at what your V5 says

If it only says 2 then you can only carry 2

its that simple

You can argue the toss all you like but THAT document is what they will throw in your face in court as the vehicle is only designed to carry what your V5 says.

end of


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## tonyt (May 25, 2005)

bigcats30 said:


> Have a look at what your V5 says
> 
> If it only says 2 then you can only carry 2
> 
> ...


I wish it were that simple.

A lot of V5's have no entry in that box (S1).


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

Stanner is right here. If your insurance says you have two belted seats then that's all you will be insured to carry. No one else will be covered in the event of an accident. Legally though if the belts aren't fitted then it's not illegal to carry passengers without them.

I don't think it's possible to retro fit side seat belts safely either. No anchourage points etc.

Personally I take the view I'm carrying passengers in a none crash tested, plywood and polystyrene vehicle anyway, so if it gets smacked by something bigger than a Smart Car it's going to completely spoil their day anyway, belted or not!

Don't have nightmares!


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

tonyt said:


> bigcats30 said:
> 
> 
> > Have a look at what your V5 says
> ...


Then you have an arse covering

the law will simply gather evidence and if your V5 says 2 then that all you can carry

I have a feeling that only vans manufactured AFTER 2006 will have the numbers filled out

anything manufactored after 2006 or 7 you are not allowed to tarvel in side facing seats at all


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

tonyt said:


> bigcats30 said:
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> > Have a look at what your V5 says
> ...


My 2008 registered one does. Is it not the norm in 2010 ones?


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

rayc said:


> tonyt said:
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> > bigcats30 said:
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does what??


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## MullburyAP (Jul 18, 2013)

Hey guys thanks for the help on this one. I thought id be waiting days for a response, Great forum

V5 states 2 seats including the driver so it looks like two i carry only, ill check also the insurance docs.

Thanks again guys & ill be in touch again soon no doubt 

(The newby)


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

bigcats30 said:


> rayc said:
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> > tonyt said:
> ...


"A lot of V5's have no entry in that box (S1)."


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

rayc said:


> bigcats30 said:
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> > rayc said:
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I even answered that previously


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

rayc said:


> tonyt said:
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> > bigcats30 said:
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again does what?


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## suedew (May 10, 2005)

Glad this has come up, our van, 6X3 point seatbelts is registered as having 5 belted seats including the driver, will need to take it up with the DVLC.

Sue


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

bigcats30 said:


> I have a feeling that only vans manufactured AFTER 2006 will have the numbers filled out
> anything manufactored after 2006 or 7 you are not allowed to tarvel in side facing seats at all


Who are what says this? If designated seats are fitted then they have to be used first but I'm not aware that there is a prohibition on non-designated seats being used in the event that the designated seats are being used. Indeed Autotrail, on its website, states

"The law relating to the use of seatbelts in the back of motorhomes is more complicated, but the trend is towards the introduction and use of designated forward-facing travel seats with three-point seatbelts. Optional rear-facing seats with belts also meet the latest legislation.
Further changes to the law look likely in the future, when travelling in the rear of motorhomes without designated travel seats may become illegal." This seems to imply that it is not illegal at the moment.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Interesting. Just checked our V5C and it shows 2 seats including driver for S.1. So that's going straight off to DVLA to be corrected as it was built by Swift with 4 seat belts and we've had a rear facing lap belt fitted (its a pre Oct 2007 van)


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

peribro said:


> bigcats30 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a feeling that only vans manufactured AFTER 2006 will have the numbers filled out
> ...


and nothing you have added includes side facing seats in vehicles manufactured after 2007

this is about side facing seats in vehicles manufactured after 2007.

and if your V5 says only 2 then by law you can only travel with 2

again as I stated in my first post you can argue the toss all you want but the V5 is what the police will ask for IF they decide to prosecute you.

also your insurance company will quite happily pull the 'your not insured' card because you haven't followed the V5....which is a legal document

Not the manufactures bloody handbook

arguing with me with achieve nothing.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

My understanding is that vehicels registered after October 2007 must have seatbelts fitted to all seats that carry passengers.
Earlier vans aren't legally required to have seatbelts but a PEO could decide the unsecured passenger is an unsecured load and presents a danger. That's a different offence.

That's why we fitted a lap belt so our extra 5th passenger isn't "unsecured" and as we are pre Oct 2007 we aren't covered by the current legislation.


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## chiefwigwam (Jan 23, 2013)

Peribo is correct, adults can legally sit in the rear unbealted where there are no seat belts, providing there is of course a designated seat, forward facing , side facing or otherwise


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

bigcats30 said:


> arguing with me with achieve nothing.


You may well be right but until this point I wasn't aware that I was arguing with you. I asked you to tell me (and others) who or what it is that says that in vans built post 2007 passengers can only travel in designated seats. I was hoping that you would point me to some law, directive, article etc that supports your views. You haven't done this so I will presume that you haven't come across any such authority.

Instead I will point you to this previous discussion on MHF http://www.motorhomefacts.com/forum-printtopic-1-116770-10-0-asc-viewresult-1.html in which some very helpful answers from the police and the DFT are included. This confirms my understanding that there is no legal requirement that prevents passengers being carried in non-designated seats (so long as any designated seats are in use) although that is always subject to the proviso that the police may prosecute on the grounds that "the manner in which passengers are being carried is such that the use of the motor vehicle or trailer involves a danger of injury to any person". However that "offence" applies regardless of whether the vehicle was built pre or post 2007 and regardless of whether or not it has designated seats and regardless of what it says on the V5.

I've never seen any reports of motorhome drivers having been prosecuted on these grounds and I imagine that were there to be a general policy by the police to prosecute then one would start to see reports.


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## icer (Dec 11, 2006)

Agree Peribro, and of course they are within weight limit.

Ian


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## oldun (Nov 10, 2005)

chiefwigwam said:


> Peribo is correct, adults can legally sit in the rear unbealted where there are no seat belts, providing there is of course a designated seat, forward facing , side facing or otherwise


but may not be insured.

Usually when insuring a van you are asked the question "how many seats with seat belts?"

If you carry unbelted passengers you are greatly increasing the potential payout after an insurance claim so it's not surprising that insurance companies are very wary.

It's a good idea to ask your van insurer to clarify what is covered.

Also it's a good idea to make sure that your passengers (family!) are transported as safely as possible.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

As was stated earlier a side facing seat cannot be a "designated" travelling seat and you will not see a "designated seat" sticker next to one.

This is why previously 9 seater Land Rover Defenders are now only 5 seaters and the rear side facing seats are only "seats" for "off road" use.

PS This could end up happening to "side seat" motorhomes.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motoring/uk-insurers-retreat-side-seat-defenders


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Good news for us.
I noticed our V5C showed only 2 seats as listed anf yet the an came with 4 3 point seatbelts so had been miss registered.
We'd added a 5th belt (lap belt) to one of the rear facing seats and DVLA have sent back a new V5C with 5 seats listed.
Great!


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## rockjedi (Oct 30, 2011)

Most of the answers refer to side facing bench seats. Is there any difference for passengers travelling in U or L shape lounge at rear? Is it possible to get seatbelts fitted to the lounge areas?


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Pat-H said:


> Good news for us.
> I noticed our V5C showed only 2 seats as listed anf yet the an came with 4 3 point seatbelts so had been miss registered.
> We'd added a 5th belt (lap belt) to one of the rear facing seats and DVLA have sent back a new V5C with 5 seats listed.
> Great!


From what I have read DVLA will put down on the V5C anything that is told to them. Unlike VOSA who do have people with vehicle knowledge the DVLA seem to be mostly pen-pushers.

I have elsewhere suggested that DVLA's technical functions, as opposed to tac-collecting, be put under VOSA, but maybe it is too expensive to employ real engineers instead of pen-pushers.

Geoff


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

rockjedi said:


> Most of the answers refer to side facing bench seats. Is there any difference for passengers travelling in U or L shape lounge at rear? Is it possible to get seatbelts fitted to the lounge areas?


I suppose if you are sitting in the middle of a U shape lounge (i.e. facing the front of the van) then that could be safe if a seatbelt could be mounted there. As for other angles on the U shaped seat or the sideways facing part of an L shape seat, you have the problem that in the event of a rear or front end collision, you are not going to be adequately restrained whether you are wearing a belt or not. As for retro fitting seat belts this can be done by specialists in certain circumstances but it is difficult and usually expensive as the anchorage points have to be attached to parts of the floor that can take the load in the event of the belt tensioning.


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## caz650s (Feb 15, 2009)

PatH .. I think the five on your new V5 will include the driver ? When I had my swift V5 corrected because the supplying dealer did not even know how to register the vehicle from new .. I had to get a letter of conformity from Swift before DVLA would ammend the V5 .. did they change your V5 just because you said how many seatbelts it had fitted ?


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## oldun (Nov 10, 2005)

chiefwigwam said:


> Peribo is correct, adults can legally sit in the rear unbealted where there are no seat belts, providing there is of course a designated seat, forward facing , side facing or otherwise


That may well be so but ARE YOU INSURED TO CARRY THEM?

Most insurers ask you to state the number of seats with seat belts. I imagine that they ask this question for a reason!!!!

Why not ask your insurer what cover you have?

My V5 sates "Number of seats including driver - 4". There bis no mention of seat belts.

I have reread my Safegauard policy and I cannot see any reference to seat belts. It does say that it will pay up tp £300 per "Passenger carried" for dental work necessary after an accident.

Si it's not very clear at all.


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

oldun said:


> chiefwigwam said:
> 
> 
> > Peribo is correct, adults can legally sit in the rear unbealted where there are no seat belts, providing there is of course a designated seat, forward facing , side facing or otherwise
> ...


I'm somewhat intrigued by this "but you may not be insured" argument....I've heard it quite a few times now, but as yet whenever I've asked anyone to verify this suggestion I've never heard or seen anything to convince me.
Maybe this time it will be different?

The liability of the insurance policy holder in the event of an accident and injury to carried passengers (however carried, whether belted or not, whether in designated seat of not), seems to me to be covered by the "third party" element of the vehicle insurance.

So far as I am aware, no insurer has ever refused to pay out on that third party element of such a policy, because they are obliged to do so by law.

Please can anyone point me towards any case law, ever, where any UK court has found that the insurer does NOT have to pay out in full on a third party liability, due to a minor infringement in road traffic or Construction & Use regulations by the driver that rendered the insurers legal obligation to be void?


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## oldun (Nov 10, 2005)

TheNomad said:


> oldun said:
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> > chiefwigwam said:
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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

oldun said:


> TheNomad said:
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> > oldun said:
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## pete4x4 (Dec 20, 2006)

I also feel the need to add that I have never been asked how many seats my motorhome has so my insurer has no idea.


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## sideways (Jun 2, 2008)

The answer to many queries on this web site is " you wont be covered by insurance" or the old favourite "you will invalidate your insurance" mostly from people who i,m afraid to say base this on hearsay hands up how many members have actually been refused a payout as they had done something wrong?.Insurance companys take your premium and are legally oblidged to cover you unless you have lied to them and in some cases then they still have to payout albeit less the increase in premium that would have resulted had you told the truth. if it isnt illegal to sit in a sideways facing seat while travelling how can you not be covered?


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## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

pete4x4 said:


> I also feel the need to add that I have never been asked how many seats my motorhome has so my insurer has no idea.


Ditto


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

rogerblack said:


> pete4x4 said:
> 
> 
> > I also feel the need to add that I have never been asked how many seats my motorhome has so my insurer has no idea.
> ...


They in effect "asked" for it when they asked for the reg. no. as it is set out (or should be) on your V5C.

That sets out clearly the seating capacity of the vehicle they have contracted with you to insure - seats, passengers and all.


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

It's scaremongering with no basis in law or case history to suggest that insurers would decline a claim. At best (or worst) they may reduce a payment to the driver if they could prove that he or she suffered injury as a result of carrying passengers in a manner that he or she knew was unsafe and was likely to cause him or her injury in the event of an accident. As for passengers, it would be necessary for the insurer to prove that they knew that they were at greater risk and didn't attempt to mitigate that risk. Easy to prove if they had a seatbelt available and hadn't used it but can't see how the insurers can argue it if there is no belt available. Back again to the argument about Land Rovers with side facing unbelted seats, older cars, buses etc etc .


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## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

Stanner said:


> rogerblack said:
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> > pete4x4 said:
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My V5C does not include that information.


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## pete4x4 (Dec 20, 2006)

My V5 states I have 3 seats, news to me so I can now carry an extra passenger unbelted excellent!


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

pete4x4 said:


> My V5 states I have 3 seats, news to me so I can now carry an extra passenger unbelted excellent!


You need to ask the dealer who sold (and presumably registered) it which one it is. If it is a "designated" seat it should be marked nearby with a little picture of a seatbelt.

As for no seats at all, again a question for the dealer/DVLA.


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## oldun (Nov 10, 2005)

sideways said:


> The answer to many queries on this web site is " you wont be covered by insurance" or the old favourite "you will invalidate your insurance" mostly from people who i,m afraid to say base this on hearsay hands up how many members have actually been refused a payout as they had done something wrong?.Insurance companys take your premium and are legally oblidged to cover you unless you have lied to them and in some cases then they still have to payout albeit less the increase in premium that would have resulted had you told the truth. if it isnt illegal to sit in a sideways facing seat while travelling how can you not be covered?


I am happy with this with one small addition as follows "Insurance company's take your premium and are legally obliged to cover you unless you have lied to them and or the cover is not specifically excluded in one of their clauses".

As to the question "how can you not be covered?" the answer is simple - the cover is excluded by a clause in the policy.

For example my wife broke her clavicle whilst on a campsite in France and afterwards could not get onto the fixed bed due to restricted access (PVC). So it was absolutely necessary for us to stay in cheap hotel accommodation on the way home. This is a clear cut case of actions necessary to get home after an accident so it must be covered. NO it was not covered as there was a clause saying that only pre-booked accommodation was covered. Even the ombudsman agreed with the insurers.

So do not believe that you can second guess the cover supplied - please (unlike us) read all the clauses and exclusions carefully.


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## grumpyman (Sep 24, 2006)

Here are the views of Caravan guard.

http://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/motorhome-seat-belt-regulations-explained-861/

Interesting point if a person is arrested and deposited in the rear of the Police Vans, side facing seats and no seat belts from memory.


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## oldun (Nov 10, 2005)

grumpyman said:


> Here are the views of Caravan guard.
> 
> http://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/motorhome-seat-belt-regulations-explained-861/
> 
> Interesting point if a person is arrested and deposited in the rear of the Police Vans, side facing seats and no seat belts from memory.


I think you will find that they have a specialist policy for their trade not a bog standard motorhome insurance policy so the comparison is not reaaly valid.

I have just checked with Safeguard and they say that passengers carried in a motorhome should use seat with belts where possible but extra passengers in seats without seat belts are covered. So there is no problem with safeguard


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## doesie (Sep 15, 2010)

*Oh dear, how does this all work....*

Hmm. Last year I re-registered a converted bus with DVLA as legally allowed to carry 7 people. 2 of these were on a side seat with no seat belt. I registered it with DVLA just by sending in photos of how people fit on the seats. It was a 1984 vehicle. Simple, if unsafe . I have now sold that vehicle.

Now I am looking to buy a more "sensible" Ford Duetto/peugeot autosleeper, 4 berth, from the years 1995-2001 (as late as I can afford). These things have 3 belted seats - but are 4 berth in terms of sleeping capacity. There is no entry on the V5. So, presumably I have the option of sending in the photo to DVLA to prove that it can seat 4, albeit without seatbelt on a side facing bench seat? before buying, thought I'd better check... Nice lady at DVLA says though "we normally go by number of seat belted seats" which threw me.
Is this because of the later year of the vehicle? Has something changed? Did she just not have the specialist knowledge??
Anyone out there know??
Or better still - can recommend a small 4 berth camper/motorhome with 4 travel seats with seat belts, with a loo, that costs no more than £15000 and isn't huge?? The Ford Duetto fits all my requirements - apart from the travel seats 

Why oh why fit out a camper as a 4 berth and not register it as such!!!


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## doesie (Sep 15, 2010)

*Interesting, but...*

So, if I am buying the Peugeot Symphony 2001 model (viewing it Friday), the following will apply according to age of vehicle:

2. Motorhomes manufactured after 1st October 1988…
… must have seat belts fitted for the driver and any forward facing front passengers. Three point belts are required for the drivers and specified passenger seats. Other front belts may be two point belts if the passengers head cannot strike the windscreen. Any optional rear belts can be two or three point belts.

There are seat belts for front passengers + the third forward facing specified seat in rear. 
Does this therefore man that as regards the side facing rear bench seat, seat belts are optional (and in fact not advised to be used by DOT - they tell me its safer without) - OK; but if you travel on this seat, are you covered by insurance? I think "yes" - the moral/is it safe argument is a seperate question, not a legal/insurance one.
Does that make sense? Or am I missing something?


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