# Stop!



## lesanne (May 1, 2008)

hI ,ALL Just come back from evening with our friends ,as reported before ,all retired , still serving Gendarmes in the Vendee DON,T FORGET ,A STOP SIGN MEANS EXACTLY THAT ....AT LEAST 5 SECS,OR 90 euros ..please take heed ...Les


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: STOP*



lesanne said:


> hI ,ALL Just come back from evening with our friends ,as reported before ,all retired , still serving Gendarmes in the Vendee DON,T FORGET ,A STOP SIGN MEANS EXACTLY THAT ....AT LEAST 5 SECS,OR 90 euros ..please take heed ...Les


Yes, spacerunner, John, got the €90 fine, plus a stiff talking to from, if I remember him correctly, a charming young female Officer near to Calais. She went to great lengths to tell him she was fining him for his own good and safety.

It appears though that the French enforcers are no different than the UK ones when it comes to interpreting the law. I wonder where in the regulations that a STOP must be 5 seconds, or long enough to put the handbrake ON and OFF. In the UK they interpret 'using' a mobile phone to 'touching it' and 'whilst driving' to mean parked with the handbrake ON but engine running.


----------



## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

5 seconds is a long time in that situation/

Dick


----------



## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

5 seconds? You'd have half the town beeping at you from behind :roll: . 

They have rather strange 4-way stop lines at some junctions in USA, you're supposed to stop at the line and sort out between you which one goes first - in my experience it's a bit like our mini roundabouts, everybody stops and then somebody goes at the same time as the one on the left :roll: But those american junctions are supposed to be the same as the "Stop"signs in France (and UK)- you have to come to a complete stop.


----------



## MrsW (Feb 8, 2009)

Lots of fines issued near us at the stop signs for those who don't comply. However daft a law it may be, it is a law and they are making lots of money from those who choose to flout it. I stop and count to 5 slowly before proceeding when I see one.


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

MrsW said:


> Lots of fines issued near us at the stop signs for those who don't comply. However daft a law it may be, it is a law and they are making lots of money from those who choose to flout it. I stop and count to 5 slowly before proceeding when I see one.


But is it the law? Does the law put a time limit on it or is that how the Police interpret it? Does the law say something like " The vehicle must come to a complete stop at the stop line" without defining how long it must remain stopped.
Anyway not that it matters, forewarned is forearmed as they say.

It happens all the time with UK traffic laws. It has taken the High Court to try to interpret what Parliament meant with regards to 'using' and 'whilst driving' in relation to mobile phone usage.


----------



## eddied (May 9, 2005)

rayc said:


> MrsW said:
> 
> 
> > Lots of fines issued near us at the stop signs for those who don't comply. However daft a law it may be, it is a law and they are making lots of money from those who choose to flout it. I stop and count to 5 slowly before proceeding when I see one.
> ...


It is the law. French and Italian 'Traffic Codes' are very specific; as they are also in relation to the difference between 'parking' and 'camping'; or the requirements for a back panel in Italy; or anything else for that matter. Forget your notions of 'Common Law'; most of Europe is governed by Roman and Napoleonic written codes (as is the EU of course). e.g. 
www.patente.it/codice/164.htm
No need for a police officer to 'interpret' anything; the law is always very specific.
saluti,
eddied

saluti,
eddied


----------



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

All this reminds me of a case in court (maybe apocryphal )

Defendant charged with not stopping at stop sign.

Defendant's Counsel tosses a coin and asks the Police Officer to tell him when the coin first stops. The officer answers when it arrives back in the hand.

'But surely Officer it stopped at the top of its trajectory - if momentarily'

Case dismissed!

OK maybe not in France, where if you stop for 10 seconds Flic may do you for obstructing the highway?

Geoff


----------



## kaacee (Nov 29, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> All this reminds me of a case in court (maybe apocryphal )
> 
> Defendant charged with not stopping at stop sign.
> 
> ...


Or the one in America, where the officer said to the driver," you did not stop", the motorist said "I slowed right down", so the officer gets out his nightstick and starts beating the s?!t out of him, then says "do you want me to slow down or stop"?


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

eddied said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > MrsW said:
> ...


So you are sure that in French law that it specifically states that at a STOP sign the driver must stop at the STOP line for a minimum of 5 seconds?


----------



## eddied (May 9, 2005)

*Stop*



rayc said:


> eddied said:
> 
> 
> > rayc said:
> ...


Fairly confident of what I say:
www.legifrance.com
Code de la Route
Livre 4
Chapitre V
Article R415-6
We could then of course do as Italian and French lawyers do, in court cases lasting several years; and discuss whether or not it actually says 4 seconds or 6.
saluti,
eddied
saluti,
eddied


----------



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

*Re: Stop*



eddied said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > eddied said:
> ...


Eddie

I was not able to navigate to Article R145-6 using French and English. Please quote what it says preferably in English version.

Geoff


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Give this a go: http://www.codeclic.com/code-de-la-route-test-gratuit.php 
Suggest you use Mode pedegogique to start with 

Test 13 is for the action required at a STOP sign. The answer is oviously to STOP but no mention of a specific time period.


----------



## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

*Re: Stop*



nicholsong said:


> eddied said:
> 
> 
> > rayc said:
> ...


Here you go Geoff - cannot see any mention of 5 seconds!
_
Article R415-6 Learn more about this article ...
At certain intersections indicated by stop signs said, the driver must mark a pause at the edge of the roadway discussed. He must then give way to vehicles on the other, or other roads and not take any responsibility for sure that he can do so safely.

The fact, for every driver to contravene the provisions of this section is punishable by a fine for contraventions of the fourth class.

Any driver guilty of an offense under this section shall also incur the additional penalty of suspension for a period of more than three years, driving license, the suspension may be limited to driving outside professional activity .

These tickets give rise automatically to the reduction of four points in the driver's license._

Keith (Sprokit)


----------



## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

*Re: STOP*



rayc said:


> Yes, spacerunner, John, got the €90 fine, plus a stiff talking to from, if I remember him correctly, a charming young female Officer near to Calais. She went to great lengths to tell him she was fining him for his own good and safety.


Yes, I am that transgressor  .

Not only did I fail to stop at a STOP sign that was obscured by overgrown bushes but failed to respond to the "nice policeman who waved at us" when we let him pass on a narrow street!   .
The gendarmette got even madder when I smilingly presented a 10 euro note. Must really learn my French numbers.

We thought we were on the major road but not only was the stop sign obscured but the road markings had long since disappeared. 
I was so sure that we had been stitched up that on return to UK I checked the area on Google Earth street view and could still not see any stop sign.
It was only on a return visit that we caught sight of the sign almost embedded in roadside trees.

The general concensus of opinion is that the vehicle's wheels must come to a total standstill. Whether that's one second or one nanosecond is not clear.
I always stop, hand brake on change to neutral, count to three, slip into first gear, handbrake off and pull away. Which is most probably the best part of five seconds. A five seconds which could prove expensive if ignored.
I take into account that M. Gendarme could have sneezed, blinked or was distracted by lighting up his/her gauloise at the exact moment that I had ceased to move so tend to make a bit of an act of the whole proceedings. :lol:


----------



## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

*Re: Stop*



sprokit said:


> Any driver guilty of an offense under this section shall also incur the additional penalty of suspension for a period of more than three years, driving license, the suspension may be limited to driving outside professional activity .
> 
> These tickets give rise automatically to the reduction of four points in the driver's license.[/i]
> 
> Keith (Sprokit)


*Reduction* (?) of four points!!

I was awarded no other penalty other than the 90 euro fine. In fact the receipt clearly stated that no points would be added to my driving licence.


----------



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

*Re: Stop*



Spacerunner said:


> sprokit said:
> 
> 
> > Any driver guilty of an offense under this section shall also incur the additional penalty of suspension for a period of more than three years, driving license, the suspension may be limited to driving outside professional activity .
> ...


As I understand from previous posts elsewhere, the system for points on a French licence is that one starts with 12 points 'credit' which can then be 'Reduced'. Whereas UK licence rules add points.

That probably makes it a legal and administrative nightmare to enforce a points penalty in France against a UK licence holder.

Vive la difference!

Geoff


----------



## HurricaneSmith (Jul 13, 2007)

*Re: STOP*



Spacerunner said:


> I always stop, hand brake on change to neutral, count to three, slip into first gear, handbrake off and pull away....... so tend to make a bit of an act of the whole proceedings.


I'm afraid that is what I do too........Make a bit of an act of it. :roll:


----------



## eddied (May 9, 2005)

Think I got over my main point - that everything is codified. A bit more on the subject of 'stop'

http://www.permisecole.com/forum-code-de-la-route/archive/07243-info-sur-l-arret-au-panneau-stop

Rest my case now.
saluti,
eddied


----------



## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

I find it frankly frustrating to read discussions about whether it should 5 seconds or not and to require justification for such statements seems a trifle naive to say the least.

French law is clear - STOP means precisely that, many people add the 5 second part so that they can totally justify that they have stopped and so that it is clear to all around them. It is not easy to say that a vehicle has totally stopped unless it is watched VERY closely - and the French police, like any others, do not spend their time doing just that.

Neither are they trying to catch out drivers from the UK (in spite of what is often said on here), but simply trying to enforce laws introduced for the safety of all road users.

Funnily enough you do NOT get hooted if you do stop for a count of 5 from my (failry extensive) experience. French drivers are often much more considerate than UK drivers in the same position.

We have seen, often, cars, and lorries waiting for considerably more than 5 seconds if they see a vehicle approaching from the side (either side) so as not to cause that vehicle to HAVE to slow down - that is rarely found in the UK where people "nip out into the gap that was (nearly) there" - causing drivers to brake to avoid running into them.

Forget the discussions about timings, slow down STOP and then check it is clear - do not anticipate that it will be clear.......

This has been said so many times on here that is as popular as "gassing", French law works, it is France so don't argue about it, accept it or go elsewhere.

Dave


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Penquin said:


> French law is clear - STOP means precisely that, many people add the 5 second part so that they can totally justify that they have stopped and so that it is clear to all around them. It is not easy to say that a vehicle has totally stopped unless it is watched VERY closely - and the French police, like any others, do not spend their time doing just that.
> Dave


Dave, Thanks for clearing that up. The OP intimated that the 5 seconds was in law and all that has been asked is where does it say that.
I would like to think that if I was a Police Officer I would give the task my full attention and only issue a ticket when I was 100% certain that the offence had been committed beyond reasonable doubt. Spacerunner's experience was that the STOP sign was hidden and the road markings worn away.

I am quite happy to take my chances with the French authorities as I live in Dorset, where the Police are into the 3rd year of their No Excuse campaign. They make no secret of the fact that they are out to catch normally careful drivers who make the occasional error. The prefered punishment is attendance at a Driver Awareness course with the profits from the course being retained by the Police who refuse to disclose what they do with it.

Ray


----------



## BrianJP (Sep 17, 2010)

Same in Spain Stop means Stop and drivers here are taught to do exactly that and pause for a short time.
Not unusual to Police at some junctions check for compliance


----------

