# Motorhome pricing versus caravans



## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

Had an interesting visit to the NEC show and the realisation that either motorhome buyers are totally gullible, or they are being ripped off.
Had a look at the Swift Charisma 535 caravan, which shares a layout and specification with the Swift Bolero 630FB.
The Caravan costs £13000, the motorhome costs £45000.
It has been established on here that the average trade price of a Ducato on the Camping Car chassis is about £15000. If we assume that the caravan chassis costs about £5000, the difference should be about £10000. 
Throw in the cost of inboard tanks etc £1000 and you have a cost to build of approx £24000. So how exactly does anyone justify the cost of a motorhome?
Could it be the snob value to the buyer? Is the buyer prepared to pay any price to show off to the neighbours?
Or is it the leisure market rip off as usual?
Obviously, the manufacturers are not compelled to justify their pricing, but how gullible are those that have ordered a new motorhome at the show?
Gerry

(*Mod Note to Swift*. Please see >> this post << before you continue. These comments are not directed specifically at yourselves.)


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Interesting thought Gerry. :? 

Would you like it moved to the Swift forum . . . just to be inquisitive of course, rather than malicious! :wink: 

I expect there is an answer, but I can't quite spot it myself! :? 

Dave


(Edited for clearer meaning.)


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Move it Dave,lets get a convoluted and dishonest answer. :wink: 

tony


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## Motorhomersimpson (May 9, 2005)

GEMMY said:


> Move it Dave,lets get a convoluted and dishonest answer. :wink:
> 
> tony


Hi Tony,

Well with a post like that I doubt any manufacturer will bother replying, what would be the point as you'll assume they are lying whatever they say :wink:

This thread could have been useful and informative if say Swift were to reply, sadly now I think it will be full of assumptions :wink:

MHS...Rob


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Come on Rob, how are they going to substaniate an enormous mark up without everyone saying 'oh yes' we understand. :roll: .Its a non starter.

tony


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## Motorhomersimpson (May 9, 2005)

GEMMY said:


> Come on Rob, how are they going to substaniate an enormous mark up without everyone saying 'oh yes' we understand. :roll: .Its a non starter.
> 
> tony


Hi Tony,

it would have been better to have given manufacturers a chance to respond and explain wouldn't it, before condemning them outright :wink:

We could have picked through it then and at least we would some facts to work with :wink:

Oh well, as I said, it could have been an interesting thread, but I fear now the moment has passed :wink:

MHS...Rob


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## Mike48 (May 1, 2005)

We all know we are being ripped off don't we? When anything motorhome related (not just motorhomes) the price is horrendous and bears hardly any relationship to the actual cost. Servicing is the ultimate rip off being charged around £300 for little more than an oil change and the price of accessories has gone through the roof.

But if we are all daft enough to pay the price then we get what we deserve. I'm as bad as everyone else having just spent an arm and a leg on a new panel van.


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

The price of any product has nothing to do with what it costs to make (other than to make sure that you don't make a loss) - it's what the purchaser is prepared to pay.

If you compare (to move it away from poor old Swift for a change) a £30,000 panel van conversion like the Trigano Tribute with, say, an IH Tio at £50,000 - what's the difference? A few fancy bits of detailing, a bit more sponge on the seats, perhaps the odd accessory or two. And yet vans like the IH and Timberland command top dollar, for essentially the same thing as a Tribby.

Gerald


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

"Market Forces" is the phrase you're looking for Gerald. :lol: :lol: :lol: 

It always struck me as rather revealing in the days when the £ was worth more than a groat that you could buy the same M/H for 30% less in Germany than it cost in the UK. The German dealers always told me that it was all down to the UK dealers being greedy in their mark-up. I wonder how much truth there was in that - and how much it still holds true?


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## Kees (Jan 15, 2009)

Isn't some of the difference down to development costs? I would think that the development cost of a motorhome is considerably more than a caravan and yet this cost has to be amortised over a smaller sales quantity. 

Kees


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

But there are many instances where the addition of a simple word tends to send the price sky-high; 

try booking a venue for day's event the cost will be £XYZ , then say "Oh, it's for our daughter's wedding! and the cost is suddenly £XYZ + 10,000  

or simply ask for the "marine version" of that thingummyjig and the cost will triple, 

or ask what the salary is for an e.g. bank cashier ? c/w a bank director ? 

We have all seen how the prices are higher for such products as a new set of body armour, or warship, or fighter aircraft - last week's revelations about the overspends on the defence budgets are the same problem, as Gaspode and Kees have both said; "market forces" and "development costs". 

My late father-in-law also added "only a rich man can afford to buy cheaply" - in our experience the quality of build in our MH is excellent. If we had bought cheaply built van without a reasonable profit margin for the converter, dealer and so on, I wonder whether quality would be cut along with price? :? 

But then I teach in a fee-paying independent school where the parents currently pay an extra £9,000 in fees to the school (which is low for the SW and much lower than many other such schools) - they pay that because they believe we offer a better product than the underfunded state schools in the area. But they are of course, still paying for those underfunded schools through their taxes...... 

Just some thoughts on an unanswerable question, but no criticism anyone who believes we are over-paying for our enjoyment. 


But then why do people drink champagne? After all it's only a sparkling white wine (without criticising the Champagne region in any way), so why not drink a sparkling Cava? I suspect we would all answer that point! 
DP :lol: 

Or a 10 year old Port? Or a mature single malt whisky? They are only flavoured water with a little bit of ethanol! 8O So how can the whisky manufacturers get away with charging such an exorbitant price for flavoured water? 

Dave :lol: :lol:


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Would tax have a bearing on the higher motorhome price?

Ray.


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

Anyone that already has a M/H would not be too pleased if they halved the prices of new one tomorrow.

If the pricing was closer to caravans then everyone would want a M/H then the prices would go back up.

What's it matter how much a M/H is as long as people are buying them. If they were though to be to expensive they would not sell.

We all have a choice.


Richard..


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

Kees said:


> Isn't some of the difference down to development costs? I would think that the development cost of a motorhome is considerably more than a caravan and yet this cost has to be amortised over a smaller sales quantity.
> 
> Kees


Personally, I cannot see any difference in the development cost. Certainly there is no difference in the cost of the furniture as the same units are used on both vehicles and the method of construction is similar.
Gerry


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

raynipper said:


> Would tax have a bearing on the higher motorhome price?
> 
> Ray.


The only extra tax is special car tax, which I believe is 5% on the ex factory price.
Gerry


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

Zebedee said:


> Interesting thought Gerry. :?
> 
> Would you like it moved to the Swift forum . . . just to be inquisitive of course, rather than malicious! :wink:
> 
> ...


Dave,
It wasn't aimed at Swift. The only reason for quoting Swift prices is that they are open to comparison. They build identical layouts with identical furniture and identical construction methods.
Unlike later posters I am certainly not accusing Swift or anyone else of lying and wouldn't.
The reason for the post is that having visited the show I realised that to buy a new Motorhome would cost me mine and another £24000. However if I were to go back to a caravan, I could buy a new caravan and a recent used towcar for the current value of my motorhome. Is there £24000 extra value in the motorhome? Certainly not for us.
Gerry


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## Pusser (May 9, 2005)

You have to deduct too the cost of whatever the caravan sits on. I would have thought the M\home hab frame has to be different and thus more expensive and of course there is no snobbery value buying a caravan as it is a gypsy's first choice. Would you buy a tin hut from a tramp? I don't think so. Then why by a caravan I ask?


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

Pusser said:


> You have to deduct too the cost of whatever the caravan sits on. I would have thought the M\home hab frame has to be different and thus more expensive and of course there is no snobbery value buying a caravan as it is a gypsy's first choice. Would you buy a tin hut from a tramp? I don't think so. Then why by a caravan I ask?


Pusser,
In my original post I made an allowance for the cost of the caravan chassis in the same way that I allowed for the motorhome chassis.
Secondly, you need to look around and notice how many travellers are now using motorhomes as a first choice.
Do not understand the tin hut from a tramp, unless you are calling the caravan dealer a tramp. Difficult one as a large proportion of motorhome dealers are also caravan dealers, so the chances are that you bought a motorised tin hut from a tramp.
Gerry


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

*motorhime prices*

Its supply and demand, manufacturers and retailers will charge what the market will stand. If it is a new model that people clammer for they will inflate the price (called skimming), if they have a glut of vehicles they can't sell then the price is very volatile and bargains can be had. Then there is product positioning, where in the market do you place the new model? in the rolls royce or mini bracket? As the chinese say ' in the factories we make perfume in the shops we sell hope'

I went to the NEC first day and thought how the attendance seemed down and the prices seemed up, especially the motorhomes. As Other contributors have remarked 'how do they justify their prices' and are they in danger of over production? One way is to shop atound , I found that stuff I wanted from the show I could get cheaper on the internet and didn't have to carry it either.

Graham


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

My familly thought i was mad when i traded Merc ML and year old Gheist fo a six month old mh plus £8 k.

I sometimes think i was, as the mh only just gets more use than C/van.

Mh dealers have a probable profit of 20% plus. 
They need that to maintain staff levels and luxury sites.
Gerry D
I am sure you know the difference in your companies manufactured goods cost , shipping and store costs relative to sales profit.

No profit = down the swanny. Then we all suffer thro`lack of choice and availability.
Hopefully high values mean that i have a good residual value when i come to giving up mh ing.

Still a rip off though

dave p


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## grumpyman (Sep 24, 2006)

This subject i mentioned a few weeks ago, http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-705657.html#705657


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## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

Gerry the OP makes a persuasive argument. (Although I doubt it costs as much as £5,000 to make a caravan chassis.) He then made another good point in a subsequent post, that there is no difference in the cost of furniture as the same units are installed in both caravans and MHs. The same applies to the 3rd party sourced kitchen and washroom kit.

The method of construction is similar - also true. The big UK caravan manufacturers like Elddis and Swift appear to make floors and walls for coachbuilt MH bodies using exactly the same timber frame panel construction as their caravans, sharing the same machinery for batch manufacture. Economies of scale should apply here because e.g. Swift manufactures 90% caravans and 10% MHs. There is also much less hand-crafting nowadays because numerically-controlled cutting machines do the precision cutting work to make window and door apertures etc. Yet MH prices are still vastly higher than comparable caravans and the suspicion must be that MHs are a very profitable add-on product range for caravan manufacturers (and dealers).

Following from what Gaspode said, a couple of weeks ago I dug out an old Practical Motorhome Issue from 2006 to illustrate just what low prices Palmovski (a German dealer) was advertising then for brand new coachbuilts:

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-73081-days0-orderasc-10.htm

I also still think that the base vehicle manufacturers have been allowed to get away with charging excessive prices in the UK because the buyers want RHD. Not for nothing has the UK been called "Treasure Island" by foreign manufacturers because they can get away with rip-off prices here. [That must of course change due to the fall of Sterling so the bonanza days could be over.]

SD


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

GerryD said:


> Dave,
> It wasn't aimed at Swift. The only reason for quoting Swift prices is that they are open to comparison. They build identical layouts with identical furniture and identical construction methods.
> Unlike later posters I am certainly not accusing Swift or anyone else of lying and wouldn't.


No worries Gerry. 

I never thought for a moment you were getting at Swift, and having had the pleasure of chatting to you at the Global I'm certain you are not the sort of person to accuse them of lying. 

_*I think I will move it into the Swift forum, as it seems only fair to offer them a chance to respond if they want to.*_ (They probably only monitor their own forum closely.)

I will insert a link to this post in your original post so they know where you are coming from, and are reassured that it isn't an attack aimed specifically at them! :wink:  (Just in case they leap to the wrong conclusions.)

I shall be interested in their response, and hope we are made privy to some example figures so that we can base our opinions on fact - rather than having to rely upon supposition as we do at the moment! 

As Motorhomersimpson said, a potentially interesting and informative thread! 

Dave


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

> This subject i mentioned a few weeks ago, http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-705657.html#705657


and I see neither JCM nor (oops-I was going to mention the "S" word :wink: ) any other manufacturer answered on that one so I suppose we shouldn't hold our breath on this thread :wink:

edit-seen it's being moved to "Swift" so perhaps we will....but where's JCM??


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## Senator (Apr 24, 2008)

I remember being at the Birmingham show one year and a couple sitting at a table next to us on a dealers/manufacturers stand were enquiring about the cost of a particular M/H. On hearing the price the lady quickly pointed out that for the same money she could buy a new caravan and the car to tow it!

When we sold our Autotrail in 2005 I traded it in for a brand new top of the range Bailey caravan and had a cheque as well that would substantiate the ladies argument above!

But, we like our motorhomes don't we, and anything else is just not the same!

Comparing the furniture in my Autosleeper I would suggest that it is of a better quality (and heavier) than the furniture found in my Bailey. Added to that the body structure is very different to a caravan, I suspect it needs to be more structurally rigid than a caravan for obvious reasons. These factors will all add to the cost to some degree and I suppose historically more caravans are made than motorhomes,

All that said, Motorhomes are expensive, and judging by the amount of new ones around we are all paying out for them. All I would add is that if you went to the Southampton Boat Show with £100k in your pocket to spend on a new boat you might be disappointed with what you could get!

Interesting thread. Would love to see the prices of new ones come down to a more realistic level so I could afford one, but then what would happen to the residual value of my current van?

Mark


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## Hezbez (Feb 7, 2009)

We were in the USA recently and we visited some dealers (with a view to renting). The 'For Sale' section was mouth watering!
Both new and used vehicles were substantially cheaper than they are here.

How can they do it, but not us?

(I did note however, that diesels were few and far between. The vast majority of their coachbuilts (C Class) were petrol, geeting 8 - 10 gallon)


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## Pusser (May 9, 2005)

GerryD said:


> Pusser said:
> 
> 
> > Difficult one as a large proportion of motorhome dealers are also caravan dealers, so the chances are that you bought a motorised tin hut from a tramp.
> ...


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## 108370 (Nov 20, 2007)

Can anyone suggest what constitutes a ' rip off'

Would a margin of 10% be correct or 50% be OK. ?

What if you have premises in an expensive area as opposed to a cheaper less popular area. Perhaps all companies could work out of near derelict buildings and have an appointment only system for viewing?

Perhaps literature could be scrapped and maybe no exhibitions or maybe no aftersales service at all.

My point is that there has to be a profit, otherwise no company.

Maybe the difference in cost can be down to buying a high value base vehicle for conversion.How many chassis's are held waiting conversion and final sale. There is very little cost in raw materials for a caravan structure as opposed to a rolling chassis.

Also to compare 2006 prices from Europe is not really sensible , the Euro /£ rate has dropped around 30%, so what was a European bargain is now not so. It has little to do with actual costs but simply our over valued pound at the time.


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## Hezbez (Feb 7, 2009)

When you look at the home page it reads:

Motorhome price rip off - Swift Motorhomes

I've read and understood the reasons for moving this thread to the Swift Forum, but I don't think it is particularly fair to Swift that it sits here.
This issue and thread is not restricted purely to Swift, but on first impressions, it looks like it is. :?


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Hezbez said:


> This issue and thread is not restricted purely to Swift, but on first impressions, it looks like it is. :?


Hi Hez

That's precisely why I inserted the Mod Note in the OP, to ensure that nobody gets the wrong impression.  _(You are quite right - it's easily done with the written word! :roll: )_

Gerry has confirmed that he is not targetting Swift, or any other manufacturer, but it seems only fair that Swift should be given the opportunity to have an input . . . if they want to. 

Chances are they would not notice it where it was, since I expect they only monitor their own forum closely.

I hope we are being as fair as possible to all concerned. :?

Dave


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## drcotts (Feb 23, 2006)

I think a lot of Mhers are a bit gullible, I have heard of several people dedicated to one Marque who even though they get problems that pee them off to the extent that they want to change the van..they keep to the same marque from the same dealer.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

drcotts said:


> I have heard of several people dedicated to one Marque who even though they get problems that pee them off to the extent that they want to change the van..they keep to the same marque from the same dealer.


and the same could be said for energy supply companies, telephone providers, banks, garages and so on.

Many people are reluctant to move their accounts with lots of organisations - why? No one is really sure; better the devil you know???

or apathy ?

company loyalty ?

Could be any or all of them.

I am sure others will have their opinion as to why this observation is made so frequently! :? :?:


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## CLS (Jul 25, 2005)

Link to Swift website : 
http://www.swiftleisure.co.uk/swift...-in-sunday-times-fast-track-private-companies

Vast turnover with a pre tax profit of around 2% ....

Hardly ripping people off


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Swift may not be ripping their dealers off. Its the dealers who make the most .Is that 2% after redundancy payments 

Dave p


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

In 2005 we bought a new Hobby motorhome from Ernst, a very large dealership in Germany. While we were waiting for a couple of prep jobs to be completed, one of the Ernst brothers invited us into his office for a glass of wine (that's what I call German hospitality) and we had quite a long chat about the respective UK and German markets, particularly why German prices on Hobby vans were some 30% less than the UK price for the same van.

At the time, the old (pre-management buyout) Brownhills setup was the sole UK agent for Hobby - and Ernst were a major German Hobby dealer. He told us that he couldn't believe the retail price that Brownhills were able to achieve for the same M/Hs that he was selling. He wasn't very complimentary about their service standards either I have to say, but his main gripe was the mark-up. He claimed that to make as much net profit as Brownhills were making on a single M/H sale he would have to sell around ten of the same van. I did ask if the RHD put a lot onto the price but he said it made little difference to the price that the dealer paid.

Maybe that says something about why UK prices are high?

One drawback of course if new prices were to fall, trade-in prices would also fall in proportion. So would existing motorhomers be much better off?


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

CLS said:


> Link to Swift website :
> http://www.swiftleisure.co.uk/swift...-in-sunday-times-fast-track-private-companies
> 
> Vast turnover with a pre tax profit of around 2% ....
> ...


Many high street retailers would be very happy with profit margins as high as that.
Gerry


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## EuropeanCampers (Mar 28, 2008)

GerryD said:


> CLS said:
> 
> 
> > Link to Swift website :
> ...


Maybe, but a pre-tax margin of only 1.88% is hardly profiteering is it.


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## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

GEH007 said:


> GerryD said:
> 
> 
> > CLS said:
> ...


Quite. I haven't seen the audited accounts but contributory factors affecting the bottom line could well be:

1. One-off restructuring costs e.g. redundancies
2. Development costs for new product ranges e.g. Escape
3. Increased cost of imported base vehicles and habitation equipment due to falling Pound.

SD


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## Kees (Jan 15, 2009)

I must admit that this thread has surprised me. So many of you think you were ripped off when you bought your motorhome.

Does it spoil your enjoyment? Do you gaze out of your window at the caravan on the next pitch, thinking "lucky so-and-so, at least he got value for money"?

Apparently I am gullible, but I have always been quite satisfied with the price I paid for my Autotrail. It is well built. A lot of thought (and no doubt hard-won experience) went into it's design. It's in its eleventh year and nothing has fallen off so far. I had always attributed the "high" price to it being a relatively low volume product. Development costs of a product of this type must be astronomical.

I remain a happy (and possibly deluded?) customer.

Kees


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2009)

Kees said:


> I remain a happy (and possibly deluded?) customer.
> 
> Kees


So am I ,(but I bought second-hand). I get the impression that a ten year old MH is likely to be in better condition (body wise) that a towed unit of the same age.

I seem to remember a well known service agent saying that certain manufacturers, struggle to keep the damp out of their caravans whereas their MH's tend to remain as dry as a stick. Just to clarify this remark is NOT specifically aimed at Swift or any other manufacturer in particular. (the fact is I cannot remember whether he named the brand or not)

Tco


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## Rabbiteer (Dec 25, 2008)

No profit. 
No development 
No business 

Among the reasons I am happy to pay a mark up are that I want the people who made my 'widget' to be there for the indefinite future to provide spares and after sales service. 

1] If I were Swift I would put this in the loony complaints bin and ignore it. 
2] I don't think it is a manufacturer specific point.


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

This thread was never started as a dig at Swift. The only reason that I used Swift as an example is that they are a manufacturer who build the identical layout and furniture on a Caravan and Motorhome.
I am and have always been a supporter of Swift products, in fact my family probably have a longer association with Swift than anyone else on here. My father in law bought one of the original Swift caravans in 1965 and we have had several of their products since then. Had they built the layout that we now have on a Swift chassis, we would have one now.
My initial point was simply that there is a massive price difference for what on paper appears to be a similar product other than the chassis.
Regarding longevity of the product, have a look at rally fields up and down the country and you will see caravans easily compete with motorhomes in terms of age.
Gerry


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

I have changed the title to make it less inflammatory.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

GerryD said:


> This thread was never started as a dig at Swift. The only reason that I used Swift as an example is that they are a manufacturer who build the identical layout and furniture on a Caravan and Motorhome.Gerry


I suggest you repeat this statement after every third post Gerry. :roll:

Then it might be noticed and taken account of . . . but don't hold your breath!! 8O 8O 8O

Dave


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