# Leisure battery advice sought. I think they're toast.



## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

I think my Gel leisure batteries have expired & I'd like some advice prior to replacing them with Elecsols.

I can feel a longish post coming on so please bear with me.

The Gel's are the same age as the vehicle. (2006) However they could easily have been sitting somewhere for a lot longer.

Symptoms. After about a week of coming off of hook-up the battery voltage is dropping close to 12.2ish volts from fully charged. Loading the batteries up with about 10 A caues the volts top drop to 11.7 which is effectively fully discharged. So the batteries are self discharging over this period. IE not holding a charge. The display panel shows no current being drawn & the only thing connected direct to the leisures is the satellite reciever, which I'm happy is'nt drawing anything. The solar panels are connected in using the Schaudt reg & there are diodes in the charger & panels to prevent discharging whilst dark.

Going back on hook-up the charge current is a meagre 6 Amps dropping to 4 Amps after about five minutes.

To summarise.

Batteries not holding a charge for very long.
Low charging current (high internal resistance I assume ?)

They're knackered are'nt they  

TIA Dave.


----------



## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Probably 

The trouble with gels is you can't get at each cell to check it.

"The display panel shows no current being drawn"
You mean zero milliamps?

The other possibility is an earth leakage/ fault, which is a constant drain on the batteries but doesn't show up on your meter. If you have a multimeter you can set it to max current and insert it between the battery negative and chassis.

Dave


----------



## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi Dave, thanks for the quick reply.

With the Ah meter in series with my batteries there's a draw of 0.02 Amps according to my multimeter. This is with the hab electrics isolated at the contol panel. So there's 20 milli amps going somewhere, I assume into the Electroblock.

Dave.

Edited to add there's also 50 milli amps going into the satellite reciever when I replace its fuse, contrary to my 1st post.


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Very cold temperatures will reduce battery performance. Were you checking batteries over the recent cold snap? My experience with Gels is when they go, they go big time, They don't die gracefully like you explain. I would also expect the voltage to drop as you describe when you load it up. Perhaps they have not gone?????

peedee


----------



## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

The main problem with a terminal voltage around 11.7V is that some loads (inverters, etc) simply shut down.

I agree temperature has a generally underestimated effect on terminal voltage.

Dave


----------



## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

OK, would the current I've measured above (70 ma) be sufficient to drag the voltage down to 12.2 V in one week (2 off, 85 Ah hr gels) ? Bearing in mind that there's also 180 W of solar panels connected. I have to add though that they're in a shady spot & not adding much. Typically less than 1 Amp.

The low charging current (4 Amps) was the other thing that got me thinking. Would the temperature affect this ? Generally with depleted leisure batteries hooking up was putting back 10/11 Amps.

TIA Dave.


----------



## vicdicdoc (May 14, 2005)

I disconnected my 18 month old 130Ah [AGM] gel battery & brought it home putting on my charger, when the charger registered the battery was fully charged I waited 1 hour and my multimeter registered 13.34v . . . over the next 24hrs this progressively reduced down to [and holding at] 13.13v.
Bearing in mind the battery is standing in my [unheated] outhouse do you think this 'final' holding reading is ok ?


----------



## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Yes


----------



## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

''


----------



## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

More information on my batteries for your perusal.

I charged the batteries fully using the vehicle charger on hook-up. I disonnected & allowed them to sit for half an hour. I then switched on lights & appliances to draw 11 Amps.

Voltage on load at start of test
13.4 V drawing 11 Amps

After 1 hour
12.3 V drawing 11 Amps

After 2 hours
12.0 V drawing 10.9 Amps

After 3 hours
11.5 V drawing 10.9 Amps

After the last measurement & the batteries still showing 11.5 volts the relay in the electroblock called a halt & dropped out.

So out of 2 off 85 Ah hr gels I managed to draw 11 Amps for 3 hours. 

The ambient temp was 7 deg C. Should my batteries have more capacity than this.

TIA Dave.


----------



## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Hi Dave,

I may be missing something here but you say that when you re-connect to EHU your charger is only stuffing in 6 amps? This doesn't seem right to me if your batteries are on the blink then your charger should wack in maximum amps before tailing off. Only when your batteries are dead and buried does the charger fail to put in the amps.

Perhaps you should test your charger output. Two year old GELS should last longer than that - are they not still under warranty?

Pete


----------



## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

Pete, today after I flattened the batteries & connected the hook-up again there was 17 Amps going in :? This is more like the figure I was seeing when the batteries were working well. The temperature here today was significantly higher than it was when I was last hooked up which may go some way to explaing the disparity in charging current. 

The batteries are no longer under (Brownhills) warranty.

I know that the batteries are'nt performing nearly as well as they did when I bought the van. My limited understanding of lead acid batteries is'nt helping but the voltages I've measured appear to indicate fully charged 13.7 V after resting & 11.5 V discharged. "Assuming" that at 13.7 volts the batteries are fully charged I should be getting more than 3 hours out of them at the current I was drawing.

I can smell a couple of new Elecsols  

D.


----------



## AberdeenAngus (Jul 26, 2008)

Should be able to get more in when they're cold & get more out when they're hot !


----------



## alunj (Sep 5, 2007)

I have had exactly the same behavior from my two 85 AH Gel batts in the 680 (however they are 7 years old 2001)
the ebl only put a few amps in but loading up the two with say a 12v tv gave less than 1hr until the ebl decided to drop the relay. 
I am assuming they are toast and just put in a 125AH Elecsol 
Dont forget to change the dip switch on the EBL if you change to wet batteries , Elecsol recommend that you treat them as wet.
So far things seem a lot better I can run the same TV for hours and hours and hours at the moment. I will order and add another 125 AH now I know in addition that two will fit very snugly into the hymers battery compartment.
2x 125ah should od the job, next a solar panel


----------



## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Dave,

It may well be they are toast but I would be inclined to disconnect them and test while disconnected before embarking on new ones. You should get a load test done from any decent garage/battery supplier.

When looking around for new batteries I finally went for the Squadron Energy AGM batteries as they have a 9 year sliding warranty (bit more expensive though and extremely heavy at almost 10kg heavier than the equivalent Ecosol) but have worked well for me for the last 2 years and 7 more to go under warranty.


----------



## JeanLuc (Jan 13, 2007)

*In case this info. is of any help*

Below is what my Elektroblock specification shows regarding charging regime on EHU. (Mine is an EBL 99 but I think all Schaudt blocks follow the same stages / curves.)

Stage 1 (discharged batteries) Current max 18A whilst the voltage in the batteries rises to 14.3V. (Actual current delivered depends on the discharged state of the batteries.)

Stage 2 voltage remains at 14.3V for 8 hours (Gel) or 1 hour (Lead-Acid) Current will have fallen back during this stage. The time difference is determined by the battery type selector switch.

Stage 3 float charge at 13.8V


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

I would do as Vennwood suggests get each battery checked, its possible one of them is causing you the lack of capacity. I hate gels, consider them overpriced and unreliable. I think it is more economical to buy run of the mill lead acid and change them every 5 years (their typical life).

peedee


----------



## alunj (Sep 5, 2007)

interestingly I had a chat to our work UPS engineers today, they dont recommend using a garage load tester on AGM or Gel batteries as they put too much current load on the plates risking warping.
When they check our battery chains on the 200KVA ups systems here tey rely on cell / battery voltage and replace if any doubt. All of the batteries are v expensive AGM units with 5 year wty , some last 5 yrs plus some a year or so.


----------



## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

There is some very interesting reading care of exide gel batteries 

I don't have time right now to cut & paste the relevant stuff, but incomplete charging is going to damage your/my gels in short order 

D.


----------



## JeanLuc (Jan 13, 2007)

Very useful brochure Davesport and one I shall keep.

Interestingly, if you refer back to my earlier post re: the charging protocol of the Schaudt EBL, it pretty much follows the Exide requirements to the letter. The only issue I can see is that my EBL99 has a maximum charging current of 18A which is just enough for my 2 x 80Ah Exides.

I note that one can add a second charging unit to the EBL (part number LAS1218). It is in fact this module that is built into the EBL and there is an input block to accept connections from the twin unit. So if you really want to turbocharge on EHU, I guess this might be a sound investment.


----------



## AberdeenAngus (Jul 26, 2008)

alunj said:


> interestingly I had a chat to our work UPS engineers today, they dont recommend using a garage load tester on AGM or Gel batteries as they put too much current load on the plates risking warping.
> When they check our battery chains on the 200KVA ups systems here tey rely on cell / battery voltage and replace if any doubt. All of the batteries are v expensive AGM units with 5 year wty , some last 5 yrs plus some a year or so.


A UPS bank would go nicely under the bench seat


----------



## JeanLuc (Jan 13, 2007)

*Gel Battery discharge - just for interest*

Hi Davesport,

Having read your posting, I thought I would do some experimenting myself. We have 2 x 80 Ah Exide Gels, wired in parallel and fed from an EBL99. All as fitted originally by Hymer. The van was built in 2003 and I don't know if the Gels are the original equipment, so they may be 5+ years old.

After the Carsington Rally, I charged them on EHU for about 36 hours. The settle-down voltage was just over 13V. Now, two weeks later, and with only light use (opening the step a few times) the voltage is down to 11.5V. The van has not moved in that time. So I am wondering whether it is cold weather, normal behaviour, or if the Gels are on the way out!

By the way, I was pleased to see that the vehicle alternator charges at 20+ amps when the batteries are low (clever control system this Elektroblock!). I've never paid attention to the needles before. That's as good as a Self-energy LPG DC Generator, so maybe I will not bother with additional charging devices - I was considering something.

I'll be interested to know the outcome of your tests / decision regarding battery replacement.

Cheers.

Philip


----------



## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi Philip. Thanks for your obsevations.

Between the Exide G80 Gels & the Schaudt panel I was getting some voltage readings that did'nt add up (to me) . The way the battery computer in the control panel works out what's remaining in the batteries is a mystery to me. In the end I decided that 11 Amps for 3 hours before the EBL relay dropped was'nt enough. So I've pushed the button & bought a 270 Ah/hr Elecsol.

To begin with my batteries performed faultlessly. At this point I hadn't installed the solar array yet. I could partially drain the batteries, park the van, come back three weeks later & the voltage & ah/hr remaining would be roughly the same. Depleted a little but close enough to the same state I left them in. 

Roll on to spring this year. I installed 2 90 watt solar panels & the Schaudt charge controller. I did a post on this & was exceedingly happy as I'd done everything myself & the system performed faultlessly. I used the van on several extended wild camping trips during the spring & summer. The batteries were always fully recharged by lunchtime following the previous evenings use. 

The panels nominal battery capacity was set at 180 Ah hrs, slightly higher than it should have been. During normal use I never saw this get below 165 Ah/hr remaining. I incorrectly assumed that I still had the other 165 Ah/hr capacity remaining. 

Cut to the autumn. After a month I check the van & find the leisures discharged to the point where the ELB relay has dropped. It was obvious that with the solar panels which were in the shade were'nt providing enough to keep the batteries topped up so I hooked up. With the batteries fully charged I un-hooked & watched the battery voltages drop on a daily basis. I assume this was self discharge as the current being drawn into the van was in the order of 70 Ma. Through this self discharge the Ah/hr meter never budged from 180 Ah/hr remaining ? even as the battery voltage dropped towards 11.5V & the point where the relay drops out.

So I thought then I'd try hooking up until the batteries were full & then loading them up until they were discharged. I measured the current drawn using my multimeter & the Schaudt panel. I switched evrything on apart from the heating. The end result was 11 amps being drawn from the batteries. Over 3 hours I watched the voltage drop to the point where the relay would let go. Worryingly at this point the panel still showd 155 Ah/hr remaining. Very close to the point where the relay was about to let go the AH/hr display would drop instantly to zero ? So as a reliable measure of remaining battery power my panel was'nt very accurate.

I dont know if the cold weather has had a detrimental effect on the validity of my tests, but short duration of three hours at 11 Amps seemed too short to me. Realistically with the telly on & a couple of lights the load was circa 4.5 Amps.

The only conclusion I came to was that the gels were on the way south. I'll find out when the Elecsol arrives & I do the same test again. 

D.


----------



## JeanLuc (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks for the very detailed briefing. My situation is a bit different. Firstly, I have the old fashioned twin 'meter with needle' control panel, not the LCD, so I get no estimate of Ah remaining. I just go by the voltage shown in the batteries. Secondly, although the off-load voltage dropped from c. 13 to 11.5 in a couple of weeks, we managed three nights off EHU at the Carsington Rally and it was pretty cold. But then we are not big power consumers. Apart from the heating, our heaviest drain is watcjing DVDs on a MacBook Pro and a set of JBL speakers through a 150W pure sine wave inverter. What prompted me to investigate the power supply was a tendency for the inverter to complain form time to time. Now this could be due to overload (the MacBook power supply is rated at 85W, but I don't know what the JBL system draws) or it could be voltage drop. If the latter, then the likely culprits seem to be inadequate cable (but the Hymer supply is rated at 10A) or batteries failing.

More tests to do ......


----------

