# Rapido Alko chassie Handbrake fault



## oldroverfart

Rapido 924 2004 model, I have had this since Febuary, I bought it from a dealer and they have replaced a leaking radiator ect but have not been able to fix the handbrake. I have been reading about other peoples problems with handbrakes the bangs ect. wich I have had, but no one as metioned the fault I have yet, the dealer says it is normal, with a alko chassie, my fault is that when I apply the handbrake on a slope the motorhome rolls back before handbrake holds and the steeper the slope the more it rolls. if the slope is up it rolls back and if slope is down it rolls forward. This also makes it difficult if not impossible to level motorhome.
Could someone please advise, I can not see why the motorhome passed the MOT like this


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## 747

If anyone buys a second hand vehicle that comes with a 12 month MOT, it pays to be a bit cynical about the validity of the document. Some members might be upset at my words but it happens. If a garage gets regular work from a dealer, they might just let small things get through.

The AlKo handbrake is not very good and takes some setting up. You need to take it to a good mechanic who has access to a 'rolling road' to set it up. Even when correct, there is still a very slight movement after applying the handbrake.

I dont know what your vehicle is but I have an 8.2 metre Tag axle. I never bother with ramps anymore. They need to be very high to make much difference because of the long wheelbase. A slope does not bother us now ..... unless it is so bad that we keep falling out of bed. :wink:


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## cabby

I never have a problem with my handbrake on an alko chassis 24ft.
I take it you do apply the foot brake then the handbrake before releasing the footbrake.
I would take it to a decent garage and get them to overhaul the brakes and send the bill to the dealer.
You have to de adjust the handbrake cable then adjust the rear brakes (assuming that it has separate shoes from the disc pads) then re adjust the cable, I think from the sound of it the reverse has been done.

keep us updated 

cabby


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## eurajohn

The most common cause of this problem is that the handbrake has been adjusted incorrectly, by using the cable adjuster to remove the slack.
My suggestion would be to remove the rear discs and check and thoroughly clean the handbrake shoes and the drum, then with the brake cable adjuster slackened right off, adjust the shoes until just touching the drums using the shoe adjusters, re-assemble everything and take up the excess slack in the cable but be sure not to tighten the shoes on the drum.
As has been mentioned by others, you will notice a very small movement even when properly set up although it will be negligible.


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## oldroverfart

Thanks for the quick replies, my 924 is just 6 m ie. just under 20' and the movement can be over a foot. I think cabby as the answer, I read on other posts problems caused by adjusting handbrake with cables instead of shoe adjusters. I will ring dealer when they open first


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## oldroverfart

I rang dealer and was told they had dismantled and cleaned shoes and drums and adjusted shoes before cable, they think it is that I can not apply the handbrake as hard as they can, it is booked in to be readjusted on the 6th june.


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## eurajohn

If you were not applying the handbrake hard enough, it simply wouldn't grip at all!
The fact that it eventually takes up indicates the shoes are not adjusted correctly and are "self servo" into a locked position.


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## cabby

May we ask which dealer you are using, is it a motorhome one or a garage.

cabby


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## oldroverfart

The dealer is Hayes Leisure in Darlaston


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## oldroverfart

The salesman also told me they were self adjusting is this true or another pork pie


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## 747

I would think that all drum brakes are self adjusting these days.

However, some work better than others and some are rubbish. They rarely have even wear on the friction material and still need to be looked at occasionally.


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## eurajohn

Yes the handbrake shoes do have a ratchet type "self" adjuster, it doesn't work very efficiently and not at all when the brake cable slack is wrongly adjusted. For it to work at all there needs to be a degree of movement, from brake off to brake on to allow the ratchet segment to advance.


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## greygit

We had a 2003 Rapido once and the mechanic over tightened the handbrake cable I took it back and he slackened it off but not really enough (there should be four clicks on the ratchet) but as we were leaving for Portugal the next day I left it as it was. Big mistake, travelling through France doing around 70mph the handbrake self servoed and smashed the drum and wheel bearing which cost us three days delay and a lot of Euros . 
Make sure the mechanic you use know the vehicle, when we got back to the UK I took the van to a Fiat dealer as I wasn't happy with the way the French guys had set the handbrake and sure enough the brake shoes were burnt to a crisp so again, more money to put it right :evil:


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## cabby

It would seem that they do not really understand the braking system at your dealers. It will cost you money, but take it to the commercial Fiat garage to be accessed and get it done properly and give Hayes the bill when it has been done.

cabby


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## raynipper

I have always been unhappy with the 'travel' of my tag Alco chassis van. The handbrake lever and cable travels as normal but from there the rods hardly move. I think it's some corrosion.
But the van passes the MOT every year so the minimal movement must be just enough to apply enough braking pressure to pass.

Ray.


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## 747

cabby said:


> It would seem that they do not really understand the braking system at your dealers. It will cost you money, but take it to the commercial Fiat garage to be accessed and get it done properly and give Hayes the bill when it has been done.
> 
> cabby


Hi cabby,

No point in using a Fiat commercial garage. It is an AlKo setup on an AlKo chassis.


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## cabby

Am sure that the back axle and brakes and fittings are Fiat, only the chassis and suspension are Alko. just consider whose part numbers you use for parts.

cabby


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## davesport

> Am sure that the back axle and brakes and fittings are Fiat, only the chassis and suspension are Alko. just consider whose part numbers you use for parts.


I know for sure that the torsion spring axle on mine isn't Fiat. I think the axle & the chassis are both made by Alko. I can say hand on heart I've never had any problems with my hand brake in 7 years of ownership. The handbrake gets a very solid grip & there's no rolling back or forwards after it's applied. One difference to bear in mind is that the shoes are never used in a dynamic situation IE for braking. I can't see any reason for them to wear out as they should only come into contact with the drum whilst stationary. Are all of your brake rods/cables fully supported along the length of the chassis ? If not fully supported these can swing causing the brake to apply by a small amount whilst underway. I could see the situation where this would result in the shoes becoming glazed. From the way the OP describes the operation of the handbrake it sounds to me like cause for further investigation. I'd be surprised if there's not an automatic adjuster inside the parking brake. It's simply a clutch to stop the shoes travelling too far back. This leaves the only real means of adjustment at the cable. If adjusting this up isn't having any effect it's time to get the spanners out.

D.


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## oldroverfart

I am taking motor home back to dealer on the 6th and away on the 7th so may not have time to post until I come back, but I will keep you posted.

David


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## Spiritofherald

I'm sure someone with more knowledge of the MOT rules will correct me if necassary, but I think the handbrake only has to operate at 20% efficiency to pass the test. This would probably explain why these poorly adjusted/serviced vehicles scrape through year after year. 

I'm happy with the parking brake power on my vehicles, but even so I always park with first gear selected as a backup should the handbrake fail. I live on a hill and I have a steep driveway but in over 30 years I have never had a car roll away (tempting fate) unlike a couple of others I have witnessed!


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## rayc

Spiritofherald said:


> I'm sure someone with more knowledge of the MOT rules will correct me if necassary, but I think the handbrake only has to operate at 20% efficiency to pass the test.


I am not sure of 20% but lightening the vehicle by removing gear from the garage etc helps as the expected efficiency is dependent on the weight i.e. the handbrake will be more efficient when the vehicle is lighter. I could be talking rubbish of course and deluding myself.

Not much help I know if the loaded vehicle is expected to hold on a leveling block or steep slope.


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## Spiritofherald

Spiritofherald said:


> I'm sure someone with more knowledge of the MOT rules will correct me if necassary, but I think the handbrake only has to operate at 20% efficiency to pass the test.


Check this out, it can be as low as 16% efficiency to pass the MOT - http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_3100.htm


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## Chudders

Just to add a little info,
The MOT testers manual says that the braking efficiency is calculated as follows,
The total brake effort divided by the vehicle weight and multiplied by 100 + % efficiency. 
I have also ben told (rightly or wrongly) that if the wheels lock out the efficiency reading is irrelevant. You cant get it better than wheels locked out.
Presumably the rolling road measures the total brake effort to arrive at these calculations. I don,t think there is any such thing as 100% efficient. 
I Believe Alko tag axle hand brakes are notoriously difficult to balance up and it takes time to get each wheel properly balanced with each other wheel.
I think there is someone on this forum who is an MOT tester and who explained this topic brilliantly in the past. Don,t know who it was though.


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## 747

The best way to get a Tag axle van through the MOT on handbrake efficiency is to remove everything to make it as light as possible. That way, there is a much better chance of the wheels 'locking up'. My van has discs and pads all round, which is a different kettle of fish to a single rear axle AlKo chassis with drums fitted.

Been there, got the T-shirt.


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## eurajohn

747, I think you'll find that just like the axles in this debate (discs all round but with integral drum for handbrake) your tag will have drum handbrake in the rear discs. Unless of course you are referring to the older 244 that did indeed have rear drums as the service brake (incorporating the handbrake mechanism).


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## 747

eurajohn said:


> 747, I think you'll find that just like the axles in this debate (discs all round but with integral drum for handbrake) your tag will have drum handbrake in the rear discs. Unless of course you are referring to the older 244 that did indeed have rear drums as the service brake (incorporating the handbrake mechanism).


No drums on mine I am afraid. The handbrake linkage applies the pads on to the disks. Same as my car.


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## eurajohn

What year is your van 747?


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## Chudders

747 said:


> The best way to get a Tag axle van through the MOT on handbrake efficiency is to remove everything to make it as light as possible. That way, there is a much better chance of the wheels 'locking up'.
> 
> Thanks for that tip, I thought the MOT was based on the tester entering the weight shown on the reg document. (5000Kg,s in my case). Does the rolling road weigh the vehicles axles as each is put on to the rolling road and come up with an overall weight.
> Dave


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## 747

eurajohn said:


> What year is your van 747?


52 reg van

and

I don't think individual weight comes into the MOT as long as it is the correct class. Mine is 5 tonne MAM and is a Class 4 MOT. I think that covers vehicles up to 7.5 tonne (but I am no expert on MOT classes).


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## rayc

[quote="Chudders" 
Thanks for that tip, I thought the MOT was based on the tester entering the weight shown on the reg document. (5000Kg,s in my case). Does the rolling road weigh the vehicles axles as each is put on to the rolling road and come up with an overall weight.
Dave[/quote]

For Class 4 vehicles the ATL system will automatically weigh the vehicle and this presented weight will be used for the brake efficiency calculations. [ATL= Automated Test Lane]

For Classes 5 & 7, brake efficiency must be calculated using the vehicle's DGW (see Section 3.8

http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_370.htm

If the vehicle is registered as a motor caravan it is class 4 irrespective of MGW.

https://www.gov.uk/mot-test-fees

If you have a very old motorhome you do not need to worry as Vehicles designed before 1 January 1905 and constructed before 31 December 1905 do not require a parking brake.


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## gaspode

My understanding is that the weight used to calculate the handbrake efficiency should be the actual weight of the van as presented for MOT. If you think about it, this seems logical.
I base this on an instance some time ago when I took a van for MOT on which the handbrake had been incorrectly adjusted so the efficiency was only just on the verge of reaching a pass figure, the MOT tester asked me to estimate the current weight of the van as presented so he could accurately calculate the actual efficiency.


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## eurajohn

747, the reason I asked what year your vehicle is, was that I thought it might be a very new vehicle of which I have no actual (rather than guessed or incorrect) knowledge of. 
Being a 2002 I can say that every Ducato (Alko) I have actual knowledge of around that build period does indeed have discs all around but is most definitely equipped with a drum parking brake set inside the disc, I'm not aware of any of the "Sevel" vans that have the type of system you suggest.
I only mention this as I'm keen for the "information" given here is of actual use to others rather than leading them down the garden path, as the old saying goes


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## 747

eurajohn said:


> 747, the reason I asked what year your vehicle is, was that I thought it might be a very new vehicle of which I have no actual (rather than guessed or incorrect) knowledge of.
> Being a 2002 I can say that every Ducato (Alko) I have actual knowledge of around that build period does indeed have discs all around but is most definitely equipped with a drum parking brake set inside the disc, I'm not aware of any of the "Sevel" vans that have the type of system you suggest.
> I only mention this as I'm keen for the "information" given here is of actual use to others rather than leading them down the garden path, as the old saying goes


Having never taken one apart, you could be right. There seems to be nothing obvious externally to suggest this. Perhaps there is a member who can clarify this?

I will try to find out some more information if possible. The reason why it would be good to know is because of the inherent weakness in disc brake handbrakes (if that makes sense). If you have discs all round and park on a slope, the vehicle can be insecure as the handbrake loses its grip when the discs and pads cool off. This has happened to my car on our sloping drive (where the van is normally parked). This is why I use purpose made chocks (used for HGV's) and leave the handbrake off the motorhome.


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## rayc

eurajohn said:


> 747, the reason I asked what year your vehicle is, was that I thought it might be a very new vehicle of which I have no actual (rather than guessed or incorrect) knowledge of.
> Being a 2002 I can say that every Ducato (Alko) I have actual knowledge of around that build period does indeed have discs all around but is most definitely equipped with a drum parking brake set inside the disc, I'm not aware of any of the "Sevel" vans that have the type of system you suggest.
> I only mention this as I'm keen for the "information" given here is of actual use to others rather than leading them down the garden path, as the old saying goes


This is the X250 rear hub with integral shoes for parking brake.


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## bjandlin

*alko chassis handbrake.*

Good morning.
Re Alko hand brake. Yes they are normal shoes & drum.
Had to set mine up last week after a fail on the CT. Only 11%.
As has been said the hand brake is just that & isn't used during normal stopping so very little wear & no real need to take drums off. 
Firstly chock front wheels, jack up & take off rears. This can be done individually but both at once is better.
Slacken off both cable adjusters.
Turn the drum until a wheel bolt hole is at approx 12 o'clock.
with the help of a torch you should be able to see a star shape wheel
facing the hole. This is the adjuster. With a small screwdriver turn the star, downwards, this should start to lock the brake. then back it off again until the drum turns freely but with a slight feel of shoe drag.
Repeat for the other side.
You can then set the cable adjusters.
When you backed off the cable at the front you should see the lever on the linkage come back to a stop.Leave this for the moment & go to the adjuster on the rear cable. Just take out the slack, don't put tension on the cable. Now you can go back to the front cable & again take out the slack but leave the lever back against the stop.
You should now find you have a good feel to the brake & a fairly short travel. Plus an improvement in efficiency.
Mine passed, so can more or less be forgotten about for the next couple of years.
Good luck.
Barrie


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## rayc

Handbrake adjustment guide:


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## bigtwin

rayc said:


> Handbrake adjustment guide:


Hi Ray,

Is your guide for the Fiat Chassis or the Alko Chassis?

Cheers

Ian


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## rayc

bigtwin said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Handbrake adjustment guide:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Ray,
> 
> Is your guide for the Fiat Chassis or the Alko Chassis?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Ian
Click to expand...

I guess it is for both. The hubs and brakes on the alko chassis are bog standard Fiat so the adjustment of the brake shoes is the same. I have looked under my alko based 4250kg Heavy chassis and can see nothing on the linkeage that would make that adjustment any different.

An interesting site; 
http://www.al-ko.co.uk/pages/amc-motorhome-chassis.html


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## oldroverfart

My motorhome was brought back to me today, but the handbrake is still the same , the motorhome still moves after handbrake is applied, the mechanic that delivered it could pull it on another click wich stopped movement but I could not release it.
Could anyone please advice of specialist on Alko chassie handbrakes I live in Birmingham


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## philstoke

I started a thread on my Rapido brake pedal having a lot of travel and I am also having the same problem as you with movement after pulling the handbrake on as far as I can.
Will be taking my Rapido to an independant garage to get it checked out.
when the dealers get anything in part exchange they seem to do the very minimum after reselling it, obviously comes out of their profits and they don't seem to worry that you wont use them any more


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## tony50

eurajohn said:


> The most common cause of this problem is that the handbrake has been adjusted incorrectly, by using the cable adjuster to remove the slack.
> My suggestion would be to remove the rear discs and check and thoroughly clean the handbrake shoes and the drum, then with the brake cable adjuster slackened right off, adjust the shoes until just touching the drums using the shoe adjusters, re-assemble everything and take up the excess slack in the cable but be sure not to tighten the shoes on the drum.
> As has been mentioned by others, you will notice a very small movement even when properly set up although it will be negligible.


I totally agree with your suggestion , just to add, make sure the levers /mechanisms are not seized also the inner handbrke cables move easily if they don't replace them don't try to free them off because if they don't move in an out of the outer cable freely there is a fault which could be rust (water ingress) . the times I have seen DIY selfers attempt to get a good handbrake only to find the problem is as simple as eurojohn says .


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## flyinghigh

Just to add my two penny's worth,
Have stripped out my rear bearings and discs last week and on my Alko chassis 2008 year the hand brake works on the brake calliper only,
There are no additional shoes inside the discs,


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## HarleyDave

That's interesting flyinghigh - what is your base vehicle?

Cheers

Dave


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## HarleyDave

Answering my own question - I think it's a Renault Master

I found this info at a car spares site - don't know if it's accurate though...

_Renault Master Brake Cables
A car's handbrake or parking brake system is entirely mechanical and completely bypasses the hydraulic system allowing the vehicle to be brought to a stop even when there is a hydraulic brake failure.

In drum brake systems the Renault Master Handbrake Cable pulls on a lever that is connected to the brake shoes. This system effectively bypasses the wheel cylinder and controls the brake shoes directly.

In disc brake systems an additional lever and corkscrew device is attached to the rear wheel caliper piston. The Renault Master Handbrake Cable pulls on this lever which causes the corkscrew device to push the piston against the brake pads._


This suggests to me that it is possible to have a vehicle with disc brakes which do not have supplementary "handbrake shoes" but have instead an alternative method of operating the disc pads to provide handbrake functionality

I never knew that!!!

Cheers

Dave


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## Jean-Luc

HarleyDave said:


> Answering my own question - I think it's a Renault Master
> 
> I found this info at a car spares site - don't know if it's accurate though...
> 
> _Renault Master Brake Cables
> A car's handbrake or parking brake system is entirely mechanical and completely bypasses the hydraulic system allowing the vehicle to be brought to a stop even when there is a hydraulic brake failure.
> 
> In drum brake systems the Renault Master Handbrake Cable pulls on a lever that is connected to the brake shoes. This system effectively bypasses the wheel cylinder and controls the brake shoes directly.
> 
> In disc brake systems an additional lever and corkscrew device is attached to the rear wheel caliper piston. The Renault Master Handbrake Cable pulls on this lever which causes the corkscrew device to push the piston against the brake pads._
> 
> 
> This suggests to me that it is possible to have a vehicle with disc brakes which do not have supplementary "handbrake shoes" but have instead an alternative method of operating the disc pads to provide handbrake functionality
> 
> I never knew that!!!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


Perhaps Alko use the rear brake/hub/wheel assembly of the of the front end.
Renault gets Renault bits at the back, FIAT gets FIAT bits, etc. etc.
So caliper parking brake for Renault, top hat parking brake for FIAT, etc. etc.


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## flyinghigh

That's the conclusion I came to as well, on checking wheel bearing numbers they came up as SNR FC 40096 these cross over to renault master rear bearings, I will check the brake pads numbers to see if they cross over as well,


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## HarleyDave

Yep - that seems to be the way it works.

*Should* make it simple for base vehicle mechanics (should I put a hyphen between base and vehicle - or not!!) to adjust the brakes on an Alko chassis...

Cheers

Dave


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## tony50

Self adjusting brakes do not always work properly this could be t seized operating parts , but quite often some one will tighten the handbrake cables because they think the handbrake lever comes up too far and consequently the self adjusters won't operate properly , you have to know how many "clicks" your lever on your particular vehicle/ type of brakes should be when you have fully pulled the handbrake lever up ( and I don't mean straining "your pills " ! pulling it on .)
If you feel that the brakes are still no good after the repairer has redone them go to another garage and pay for a brake test you have not got to mention you have had them looked at , just say they don't feel that good , don't let them look at the brakes if they are no good take the printout to the company who looked at them .

Tony A.
ps. if you don't understand the Brake test results PM me if you like


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## oldroverfart

*2004 Alko chassie Fiat*

I managed to get my handbrake to hold by fitting a 6" extension to handbrake lever, that I made myself using a device to make it possible to release the handbrake easier. But it still rolls back a few inches making it difficult to level using ramps. tomorrow I will be making some wheel chocks, the idea is for my partner to fit these behind wheels that are not on ramps while I hold in position with foot brake.


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