# 2005 Hymer 564 2.8 JTD - Advice on purchase sought.



## Geoff123 (Sep 4, 2006)

Evening all, or should I say good morning! I’m toying with the idea of updating my 1995 564 2.5 TDi to a 2005 564 2.8JTD with the maxi chassis, in readiness for my month in France this year.

I’m ok with most of the habitation stuff and the build quality etc, who wouldn’t be, it’s a Hymer. But, how about the gearbox and engine on the 2nd generation Fiat 2.8 JTD?

Any advice and / or info’ would be much appreciated.

Cheers

Geoff123

PS. Late night typo...654 should read 564 in both cases.


----------



## Baron1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Hi Geoff,
I have a 2005 B584, I have had no trouble at all with the gearbox, no judder when reversing and nice smooth changes.
You will find the 2.8 JTD a revelation after the 2.5 TDI, (my first Hymer was a 2.5 B564) it's quieter, smoother, more powerful and more economical.

Another advantage is, if you need even more power and economy you can have the engine remapped. I've just had mine done by Quantum tuning (WOW) and it's like a different van.

If you can, try to find out if it definitely is a 2005 model, as I'm sure you're aware some vans are sitting in showrooms/stockyards for months before being registered. I'm not sure which years the fiats with gearbox problems were but all I can say is my 2005 is OK.

Mel.


----------



## owl129 (May 21, 2008)

*gearbox*

Hi
no advice but just to bump , I have a 2005 hymer with the 2.8JTD engine not sure what 2nd generation means but just to say that since I have had the motorhome (its now done 22,000 miles), I have had no problems with the engine or the gear box,
I had the cam belt changed in 2010 and looking at the old one it was showing signs of wear and fraying.
hope this helps there will be some one along Im sure with more info

regards

paul


----------



## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

I had a 2000 model 2.8TDI and had no problems, I believe this is what is termed the first generation and this is the model that the 5th gear jumped out and had to be replaced. Mine luckily was OK.
I later had a second generation for 5 years, this was a 2004 model 2.8 JTD and the gearing and the drive was much better.
I did have both the engine ECU and the brake ECU both go faulty. I was just unlucky.
I don't think you should expect many problems.
I now have an Hymer Exsis on a Ford and part of the reason I did this was to get away from having to replace cam belts.
Good luck with your decision.


----------



## Geoff123 (Sep 4, 2006)

*Advice from Mel.*

Thanks for that info' Mel, have found one with 14,500 mile on the clock at £28,500. Going to see it this weekend to see if it's genuine!

Regards

Geoff


----------



## Geoff123 (Sep 4, 2006)

*Bump from Paul.*

Thanks for that Paul.

Regards

Geoff


----------



## Geoff123 (Sep 4, 2006)

*Info' from Grath.*

Thanks for that welcome info' Grath.

Regards

Geoff.


----------



## Baron1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Good Luck Geoff,
That sounds like a real bargain! Hope it's what you're looking for, let us know how you get on.

Mel.


----------



## Chudders (Jul 5, 2008)

As I understand it the gearbox problem was as follows. The original 2.8JTD had a 5th gear that in some instances could be a problem. I was advised however that even if it was a problem the 5th gear was external to the main gearbox and could be repaired/replaced without dropping the gearbox. The problem appeared to be that it was splash fed with oil from the main gearbox and I have seen recommendations that it may be better to wait for the oil to warm up and move around before using 5th gear. (Only a mile or three I think). I am told that the second type of gearbox was not built in the same way and 5th was part of the main gearbox and was properly lubricated and was therefore not the potential problem gearbox as before. The easy way to tell the difference is in the position of the gear stick for reverse. I have had both types. The first and potentially problem 5th gear the gear stick for reverse is towards the driver and down. The later model as on my 2006 2.8JTD is towards the passenger and up. The much talked about reverse judder as far as I am aware is a problem associated with the later X250 model, but a test drive in reverse up a slope would be worthwhile. 
The above is what I have been told so I can,t vouch for it,s accuracy but others here may be able to confirm.
Dave


----------



## Baron1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanks Dave,
Just to clarify the point, in your description of the position of the gear lever for reverse gear, are you describing a RHD or LHD vehicle?
Many Thanks,
Mel.


----------



## Chudders (Jul 5, 2008)

Baron1 said:


> Thanks Dave,
> Just to clarify the point, in your description of the position of the gear lever for reverse gear, are you describing a RHD or LHD vehicle?
> Many Thanks,
> Mel.


Right hand drive, as conventional for UK. In any event the later model would have reverse towards the windscreen. Mine is a right hand drive 2006 model with reverse pushed left and up towards the screen. I had a 2001 Autotrail with what I am told is the earlier gearbox. I do know of many people with the earlier gearbox and have never had any problems so I don,t think it,s an inevitable problem that WILL occur. A mechanic friend of mine says just as a precaution he lets the gearbox warm up before using 5th gear and tries not to labour it too hard. Whether this is necessary I don,t know. I bet there are loads of people on this forum who have the earlier version and have never experienced any problem. 
Bear in mind I,m no mechanic and only relating what I have been told or found out.

Also out of interest there is loads of info on the web if you Google Fiat Ducato 5th gear. andI see for instance that Essanjay ltd, motorhome and fiat specialists fit a modified 5th gear to the 2002 to 2006 models for £299. I bet they would give you an accurate answer if you rang their service dept (or perhaps any Fiat specialist)

Dave


----------



## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

For what it is worth, our 2000 model was the first generation with the 5th gear not in the main gearbox and our 2004 model which was built in 2003 was the second generation with the 5th gear within the main gearbox.
I understand that the change over was around 2001/2002 (build dates)
The two models are quite different with a face lift to the body, particularly noticeable around the head lights, and a different dash and steering wheel. Obviously there will be no noticeable difference to the head lights fitted to an A class vehicle.
Likewise we also had no problems with our earlier model, but the later model had a much better gearing range and was nicer to drive.


----------



## Baron1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanks Chudders and Grath,
I've got the newer gearbox, (reverse over to the left and towards the screen) so hopefully won't have any problems.
On reflection I've had three other Hymers with the older (reverse outside the gearbox) system, and covered in excess of 50,000 miles in them with no problems, so I suppose it's just the luck of the draw!!

Again Many Thanks
Mel.


----------



## Geoff123 (Sep 4, 2006)

*Advice from Mel.*

Hi Mel.

Viewed and purchased, it proved to be a 584 and not a 564.

Genuine mileage at 14,500, drives very well. My only comment so far, it seems a bit juicy, but will need to check it out tank to tank before deciding if it was just me being heavy on the loud pedal.

If that doesn't prove to be the case, I'll ask if you'd kindly dig out the number of your re-map guy.

Regards

Geoff.


----------



## Baron1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Hi Geoff,
Nice van the 584, we've had a 564, 544 and two 584s.

If it's the 2.8 JTD you should get circa 25mpg, if it's doing significantly less than that it may need a service (air & fuel filters impact on the mpg).

I had my remap done by Quantum Tuning AKA WOW, they have engineers all over the country and also provide a mobile service that will come to you, they charge £300 but if you have it done at a show they reduce it to £280 if I remember correctly.

http://quantumtuning.co.uk

They claim to up the power from 127bhp to 160bhp and also give better fuel economy (less gear changing due to increased power).

All I can say is the van seems a lot easier to drive, goes up hill in higher gears and seems quieter too, as for fuel economy I will let you know when I get back from my Hols!!

Enjoy your new van, pics would be nice.
Mel.


----------



## dinger (Jul 30, 2007)

*B584*

We to got a B584 on a 2007 plate , the only thing I had done was change the final 5 th gear .Our van is also on the maxi chassis / double floor , plated at 3500kgs running on 15 inch wheels. Other hymers are running on 16 inch wheels , depending if they have been up plated to 3900 kgs

When we first purchased the van it was pulling something like 3000 revs at 60 mph , then following some research we found that Hymer sent some vans out with different 5th gear ratio

Cutting a long story short with the new 5th gear it has given a more relaxed cruising at 60mph / 2400/2500 rpm. Local garage carried out the work , which was pretty straight forward.

There are details of this mod on the Essanjay (Poole) website.

I am now looking at the wow/ quantum tuning up grade as it seems to be well recommended.

Overall the van ticks all the boxes and has been a great purchase.


----------



## Geoff123 (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: B584*



dinger said:


> We to got a B584 on a 2007 plate , the only thing I had done was change the final 5 th gear .Our van is also on the maxi chassis / double floor , plated at 3500kgs running on 15 inch wheels. Other hymers are running on 16 inch wheels , depending if they have been up plated to 3900 kgs
> 
> When we first purchased the van it was pulling something like 3000 revs at 60 mph , then following some research we found that Hymer sent some vans out with different 5th gear ratio
> 
> ...


Thanks for that, it all helps......Geoff


----------



## Geoff123 (Sep 4, 2006)

*Response to Mel.*



Baron1 said:


> Hi Geoff,
> Nice van the 584, we've had a 564, 544 and two 584s.
> 
> If it's the 2.8 JTD you should get circa 25mpg, if it's doing significantly less than that it may need a service (air & fuel filters impact on the mpg).
> ...


Thanks for that, it all helps to solidify my decision to buy, especially as I've not sold my existing 564....so £40k's worth of vicarious pleasure sitting on my drive...gulp! Will put some pic's up soon and will look forward to hearing if your MPG has improved. Have a great time on your hol's.


----------



## LittleGreyCat (Jun 22, 2008)

*Re: B584*



dinger said:


> We to got a B584 on a 2007 plate , the only thing I had done was change the final 5 th gear .Our van is also on the maxi chassis / double floor , plated at 3500kgs running on 15 inch wheels. Other hymers are running on 16 inch wheels , depending if they have been up plated to 3900 kgs
> 
> When we first purchased the van it was pulling something like 3000 revs at 60 mph , then following some research we found that Hymer sent some vans out with different 5th gear ratio
> 
> ...


Having gone to the Essanjay web site I am now somewhat confused.

Their modification seems to be to reduce the gap between 4th and 5th - which I take to mean lowering the 5th gear ratio.
Which would raise the rpm at 60mph in 5th, but decrease the number of times when you had to change down to 4th because you couldn't pull up a hill in 5th gear.

You seem to have done the opposite - raised your 5th gear ratio and increased the gap between 4th and 5th so you have a lower rpm when cruising but might have to change down more often on hills.

Cheers

LGC


----------



## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

There must be a range of 5th gear ratios.

Mine does about 2,100 rpm at 60 mph. Perfect for cruising on motorways and dual carriageways. Too high for single carriageways as I am restricted to 50 mph (over 3.5 ton).


----------



## LittleGreyCat (Jun 22, 2008)

Chudders said:


> As I understand it the gearbox problem was as follows. The original 2.8JTD had a 5th gear that in some instances could be a problem. I was advised however that even if it was a problem the 5th gear was external to the main gearbox and could be repaired/replaced without dropping the gearbox. The problem appeared to be that it was splash fed with oil from the main gearbox and I have seen recommendations that it may be better to wait for the oil to warm up and move around before using 5th gear. (Only a mile or three I think). I am told that the second type of gearbox was not built in the same way and 5th was part of the main gearbox and was properly lubricated and was therefore not the potential problem gearbox as before. The easy way to tell the difference is in the position of the gear stick for reverse. I have had both types. The first and potentially problem 5th gear the gear stick for reverse is towards the driver and down. The later model as on my 2006 2.8JTD is towards the passenger and up. The much talked about reverse judder as far as I am aware is a problem associated with the later X250 model, but a test drive in reverse up a slope would be worthwhile.
> The above is what I have been told so I can,t vouch for it,s accuracy but others here may be able to confirm.
> Dave


Intreresting stuff.

Friends 2001 Ducato has just broken 5th gear.
The garage advised the replacement of the whole gearbox because they couldn't guarantee that the bits of 5th hadn't gone through the rest of the box and damaged other gears.

This doesn't seem to tie in with the gear being external to the gearbox, but I gues there are various degrees of external.

Both his A Class and our 2002 reg B544 have apparently the same engine - wierd 3 pin ECU external plug for diagnostics.

Reverse gear (RHD) is in towards the steering wheel and back, so older type gearbox apparently.

We have so far had no problems with forward or reverse gears.
{Touches wood}

Cheers

LGC


----------



## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

That is why some ownersw take the big magnets out of hifi speakers and stick them on the 5th gearbox cover.

That box is an old style 4 speed box with an extra gear added on. It is at the top of the box, hence the potential problem with bits and the need for big heavy magnets. :wink:


----------

