# France Touring



## brockley (Mar 6, 2009)

Away to France again this Sunday, looking through the Vicarious book of Aires third edition and noticed a warning I've never noticed in the second. 

Basically it is a copyright warning saying that we may use co ordinates given in the book in order to reach a destination, however, we may not store them, make lists of them or give them to other people.

Is it just me or does anyone else think this is a bit petty. Yes I know they have to make a living, but like many other people, I had pre paid my copy well ahead of delivery and contributed to those very same co ordinates with photographs as well without so much as an acknowledgement :roll: 

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a very useful book, but personally I think the last lay out was much better. I most certainly won't be contributing any future changes or new Aires we discover for the next edition..


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

That is certainly not a joke!

_Mod Note. Thanks Pippin. Fixed. Zeb  _


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## brockley (Mar 6, 2009)

Ooops!


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Brockley

I don't think they can dictate any conditions regarding the co-ordinates alone, since these are simply digital directions to a destination.

As long as no reference is made to *anything *else published in the book of course, since they are quite justified in copyrighting that.

Just my opinion - and yes, if it is just as you say it does seem a bit OTT. Maybe they meant the details and information, and just included the co-ords without really thinking?? :? (Can't really comment further since I don't have the third edition.)

Dave


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## tonyt (May 25, 2005)

They have no claim on the co-ordinates, neither does anyonne else!


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## Losos (Oct 28, 2009)

brockley said:


> I think it is a *very useful book*, but personally I think the last lay out was much better.


Not so sure aboutthat statement, I bought it in 2009 and found several mistakes, I managed to work out what was wrong after much head scratching. Don't do France all that much so wasn't too much of a problem, but contributions need checking in some way, not sure how the publisher might do that but IMO relying on what unknown MH owners send in is always liable to be inaccurate.


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## tonyt (May 25, 2005)

Losos said:


> Not so sure aboutthat statement, I bought it in 2009 and found several mistakes, I managed to work out what was wrong after much head scratching. Don't do France all that much so wasn't too much of a problem, but contributions need checking in some way, not sure how the publisher might do that but IMO relying on what unknown MH owners send in is always liable to be inaccurate.


I must say I tend to agree.

I know the book gets lots of praise here but really it has only some of the total number of aires, a good number of the co-ords are inaccurate, many of the reviews/comments are old and many have no details at all.

I do use it myself but in conjuction with the very precise co-ords given for the 1900+ aires that I downloaded from another site mentioned here some time ago.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

I think the idea behind it is to prevent some bright spark making a table of all the co-ordinates, saving them onto a CD or a flash drive, and then flogging copies on Ebay of similar  

IF thats the case I consider it to be pretty reasonable


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## tonyt (May 25, 2005)

Mrplodd said:


> I think the idea behind it is to prevent some bright spark making a table of all the co-ordinates, saving them onto a CD or a flash drive, and then flogging copies on Ebay of similar
> 
> IF thats the case I consider it to be pretty reasonable


Well I think my Ebay prices are pretty good - I do have to cover my costs.


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## baldlygo (Sep 19, 2006)

*Check your own*

Seems pretty unlikely anyone would enforce these restrictions, especially on an individual passing co-ordinates to a friend.

If you have visited an Aire that you would recommend to a friend then you could always record your own co-ords when there and make a list of those - no one could quibble that 

Paul


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## Hydrocell (Jan 29, 2011)

We always buy up dated Aires book & yes you are right it is a bit petty.


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## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

I'm somewhat sceptical whether legal copyright can exist in individual co-ordinates of Aires as such. Copyright would probably be upheld in a compilation in book form of co-ordinates with other information, depending on the degree of originality and skill involved. But to claim that any particular co-ordinate is protected by copyright - I think not. Likewise to claim no-one is allowed to pass a co-ordinate to anyone else or make a personal list of them strikes me as a bit over the top. I doubt if such a restriction is enforceable. :roll: 


SD


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## lesanne (May 1, 2008)

*aires in france*

Hi when you arrive in france go to nearest tabac or supermache and buy a 2011 aires de service de campingcar ,all co-ordinates are correct to our knowledge and do take you where you want to go ,we use this version in front of vacarios books one ,(as we like to get to our destations without any hastle) also we are based in France regards Les


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## homenaway (Jul 27, 2005)

I've noticed that statement in the book but not sure how they can claim copyright on physical data.

I've submitted many aires and photos to both the second and third editions and always checked the co-ordinates of the ones we used by recording them when we were there and cross checking on Google Earth.

There may be minor discrepances - I've never understood why co-ordinates are often given to umpteen decimal places which equates to a few centimetres  

At least they acknowledged the copyright for my photos  

Steve


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## brockley (Mar 6, 2009)

tonyt said:


> Losos said:
> 
> 
> > Not so sure aboutthat statement, I bought it in 2009 and found several mistakes, I managed to work out what was wrong after much head scratching. Don't do France all that much so wasn't too much of a problem, but contributions need checking in some way, not sure how the publisher might do that but IMO relying on what unknown MH owners send in is always liable to be inaccurate.
> ...


Vicarious are quite clear about who compiles the data and what to do if you find inaccuracies (see page 6), I continue to think that it is a good guide, being published in english with mini reviews is the big draw for me. My concern is not about the odd mistake (we used the second edition extensively and only found two mistakes), it is about the little notice on page 294 (3rd edition), stating that Vicarious consider the co-ordinates in the book a valuable and unique asset. It goes on to say for the security of their copyright, Do not compile them (co-ordinates) into lists and do not publish, share, or reproduce them anywhere in any format.

That's enough for me, I'm not even interested in the legality of this warning. I will never again share any corrections, new Aires or updates with them, given the attitude this notice conveys. Particularly as they couldn't even be bothered to acknowledge previous submissions and updates. I will however continue to use it as an Aires guide, after all a guide is just that - only a guide.


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## joedenise (Jul 20, 2007)

Not to sure about the new aires book but definitly do not like the maps now to small and having to keep flicking back to the front of the book.

and the last french aires book I bought last year was filled with camp sites

moan over


joe


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## tonyt (May 25, 2005)

homenaway said:


> ........................ - I've never understood why co-ordinates are often given to umpteen decimal places which equates to a few centimetres
> 
> Steve


Hello again Steve.

Interesting point.

I've often wondered how far each decimal place equates to.

I guess it's a simple mathematical calculation but my brain's a bit old to get to grips with that one.

I can get as far as the first decimal point is one tenth of a degree and there's a total of 360 degrees and the earth's diameter is............ then I lose it 

Anyone care to work it out?


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

I'm guessing that the notice is just a standard one that the publishers inserted and think may help. 

Given that most if not all the Aires in "All the Aires" are duplicated in either the MHF database and the French publications, Bord Atlas, Camping-car Infos, etc. etc. makes it all pointless don't you think? Any case would be totally unprovable. Vicarious aren't the only company providing that information.


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## brockley (Mar 6, 2009)

Vennwood said:


> I'm guessing that the notice is just a standard one that the publishers inserted and think may help.
> 
> Given that most if not all the Aires in "All the Aires" are duplicated in either the MHF database and the French publications, Bord Atlas, Camping-car Infos, etc. etc. makes it all pointless don't you think? Any case would be totally unprovable. Vicarious aren't the only company providing that information.


If you look at the warning on page 294, i'ts clearly a statement from Vicarious. The wording would push all the boundaries of 'artistic licence' as far as helpful publishers comments go.


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## Sprinta (Sep 15, 2010)

tonyt said:


> homenaway said:
> 
> 
> > ........................ - I've never understood why co-ordinates are often given to umpteen decimal places which equates to a few centimetres
> ...


This a rough guess, can't be bothered to look it up

earth circumference = 24900 miles = 360 degrees
1 degree therefore is 69 miles-ish
0.1 degree = just under 7 miles
0.01 degree = 100 yards - ish
0.001 = 10 yards

near enough for me


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

brockley said:


> Vennwood said:
> 
> 
> > I'm guessing that the notice is just a standard one that the publishers inserted and think may help.
> ...


Quite right brockley, if its a statement by Vicarious then I agree with you.

I haven't got the latest edition yet.

I still compare the mistakes in the 1st edition with the same mistakes in the French Aires book :?


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## grouch (Oct 1, 2005)

I quite enjoy looking though the All the Aires Book but have found errors in the past. When I have complained to Vicarious Books they just shrug and say that they have to rely on the input of others. Not a good excuse really as they are profitting from mis information. Having said that the errors are few and during last summer I met up with one of their freelance "checkers" who appeared to be doing a very consciencious job which is good news.


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## brockley (Mar 6, 2009)

You have hit the nail on the head grouch, when you complained to Vicarious they shrugged and told you who was responsible - you and I  

Well it won't be my fault any more because like I've said they don't deserve support when they don't answer e mail and pass criticism off like this.


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