# British Pound Or Euro?



## 104477

From the post by Kayg the Express states that 94% of us want to keep the pound. Is this true?
MHF members form a good cross section of society, so I put it to you,
British Pound Or Euro?

Thanks, Rob.


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## wobby

Going into the euro in its self is no bad thing, what is, is at what exchange rate. I lived in Ireland for the last 20 years and when I sold up to go travelling changed a lot of my money into sterling for the better interest rate, a bad move. With the current exchange rate I stand to lose a lot of money so I won't thank Brown if he takes us in at this moment in time. However I see nothing wrong with the euro and from a selfish point of view it make travelling abroad much easier.

But then a could never understand why we insist on keeping the pound, mph, and imperial measurements. Yet teach our children only metric and prosecute people for selling in pounds a ounces. We Brits are a bit strange! :roll: 

Wobby


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## olive

Would some clever person please explain to me what will happen to the prices of goods in the shops.

I have a feeling that we'll get stitched up, yet again, but perhaps I'm wrong!


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## Zozzer

I think the day has long since the government of the day was able to control the economy and keep a grip on the London stock market to prevent it relocating abroad. I think there would more stability economic stability from joining the Euro.


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## colonel

Poll 67 for Euro 32 against.

Not too many Express readers on here then?
:lol:


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## Carper

_*But then a could never understand why we insist on keeping the pound, mph, and imperial measurements. Yet teach our children only metric and prosecute people for selling in pounds a ounces. We Brits are a bit strange!*_

....because we can :lol:

I voted to keep the pound. I believe that it would never be a straight £ to Euro change over. The other countries that have taken up the Euro, have experienced price rises on everthing.

I personaly don't want to classed as a European, i'm not keen on being classed as british...I'm English!!!....but thats another matter :roll:

I worked in Germany in '87 for a very succsesful German businessman. He said to me that if Germany was an island, they would have nothing to do with the rest of Europe and its hangers on..."they will drag us all down" was his view

Doug


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## peedee

rapidorob said:


> MHF members form a good cross section of society,
> Thanks, Rob.


I would refute this Rob but must say I am a little surprised at the comments and voting so far. I think from previous polls MHF members are "knocking on" a bit and I have always thought the older generation were largely against Europe? I have imagined the younger ones either don't care or support full membership!

I also think many of us are much travelled and are definitely not so parochial as stay at home types, perhaps that makes a difference?

Since most of our goods are paid for in Euros, I cannot see it making much difference to the cost of living but without seeing all the arguments, I wouldn't know which way to vote.

peedee


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## Zozzer

Looking at the number of people who have viewed this thread, and couldn't be bothered to vote, there seems a lot of apparthy "I'm allright, couldn't given a stuff" around.


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## Carper

peedee said:


> rapidorob said:
> 
> 
> 
> MHF members form a good cross section of society,
> Thanks, Rob.
> 
> 
> 
> I would refute this Rob but must say I am a little surprised at the comments and voting so far. I think from previous polls MHF members are "knocking on" a bit and I have always thought the older generation were largely against Europe? I have imagined the younger ones either don't care or support full membership!
> 
> I also think many of us are much travelled and are definitely not so parochial as stay at home types, perhaps that makes a difference?
> 
> Since most of our goods are paid for in Euros, I cannot see it making much difference to the cost of living but without seeing all the arguments, I wouldn't know which way to vote.
> 
> peedee
Click to expand...

Hi

What do you class as "knocking on a bit"? I'm in my 40's...just :lol: and i'm anti euro.

I am also much travelled having worked in most countries in Europe, and also spent 5 months this years travelling around euroland. Most of the Dutch and Germans that i met, wish they could turn the euro clock back. If they were to be believed, it cost them all a small fortune when they changed over...the phrase that "prices doubled and savings halved" was mentioned by most

Doug


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## locovan

Zozzer said:


> Looking at the number of people who have viewed this thread, and couldn't be bothered to vote, there seems a lot of apparthy "I'm allright, couldn't given a stuff" around.


I dont believe this to be right.
I dont know which way to vote and Im waiting to read the fore and against before I do.
I usually have an opinion (as you all know on this forum) so why do I hesitate.
Im remembering when we went to decimal and the way it hid price rises.
What do we gain if we go to the Euro.
and what do we loose if we stay to the pound what is the insentive's.
Help me to see. :?
Mavis


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## some-where-in-oxford

A quick check of exchange rates

£1 = $1.47

$1 = £0.68P

$1 = Euro 0.79

1 Euro = $1.26

0.79 Euro = £0.67

I import small amount of products from overseas and pay in dollars. At todays exchange rate it would cost me about the same whether our currency was Euros of Pounds.

One dollar cost me 68p. If I bought dollars in Euros it would equivalent to 67p

http://www.xe.com/pca/

I find the whole thing confusing, on whether we should adopt the euro, it all depends on who's argument for or against, that you believe.

http://money.howstuffworks.com/euro10.htm

I remember when the Euro was introduced friends in Holland and Germany told me that everyone went shopping with a calculator to check the new euro prices with their old currency values, many said that a lot of prices went up in the beginning of the change over.


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## DTPCHEMICALS

At the moment we would be less welll off.
At some point maybe when the pound is one euro i can see our leaders joining and thus making everything from europe even more expensive.
This may lead to higher pay demands and further ruin this island which was called Great Britain.
It is now refered to as Britian.

So i vote no to euro.

Pull out of europe with all its unelected and over expensive snout in the trough beaurocrats and mp`s.
Unfortunatley as the club gets larger it is less efficient and more costly to run, just like the old Russian empire really


Rant over
Dave P

Oh and i am ENGLISH


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## 103279

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> At the moment we would be less welll off.
> At some point maybe when the pound is one euro i can see our leaders joining and thus making everything from europe even more expensive.
> This may lead to higher pay demands and further ruin this island which was called Great Britain.
> It is now refered to as Britian.
> 
> So i vote no to euro.
> 
> Pull out of europe with all its unelected and over expensive snout in the trough beaurocrats and mp`s.
> Unfortunatley as the club gets larger it is less efficient and more costly to run, just like the old Russian empire really
> 
> Rant over
> Dave P
> 
> Oh and i am ENGLISH


Buy this man a drink! I agree. Euro and Europe No No No!


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## 97201

I voted to keep the pound. There is nothing wrong with the Euro coinage as such. What does concern me is the number of times the ECB have got it totally wrong. 

If you think the house price situation is bad, just imagine how much worse it would have been if we had joined earlier and the bank rate in Europe was 2%. People wouldn't have been buying second homes, it would have been third homes. House prices would have been significantly higher so the current depression in the market would have been a lot worse.

Remember the ECB has no treasury department and is controlled by politicians not market forces. Spain is grinding to a halt. Pundits are quoting 40% unemployment here next year. The private building sector has collapsed with developers offering up to 58% discounts or BOGOF promotions. An English couple here stuck flyers on windscreens for an open house day where visitors were asked to bid for their 4 bed, 2 bath property.

Ian


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## peedee

Carper said:


> What do you class as "knocking on a bit"? I'm in my 40's...just :lol: and i'm anti euro.
> Doug


Doug take a look at >this poll< only 3 percent of members are under 35 with the majority over 55.

I think there is far too much nonsense spoken about the EEC. Over the years I have been visiting the continent, yes it has got more expensive but so have things in the UK and it would have probably been the case anyway even without the euro. Most of our trade is with the EU so if the pound falls further and even below the euro it will be more expensive anyway. I don't think increased cost of goods is a valid argument for staying out. It could happen anyway.

peedee


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## tincan

I have no reason to vote not being a UK resident but can vouch for the euro as a great leveller when it comes to travel. Instead of constantly converting currencies every time you go to buy something, the cost and value is instantly evident. No retaining bags of change or attempting to spend every odd coin before you travel home or queueing at banks to change and rechange various notes and coins. It also means certainty for business transactions throughout Europe as no hedging of funds is required.

Noel


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## chrisgreen

the decision to take up the euro,will be left to the people that matter,not the likes of us,we dont matter.
so its not worth debating.
i bet there is not one person on this forum that will have any part in the decision to take on the euro?
me i want to keep the pound.
but it will happen.


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## locovan

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> At the moment we would be less welll off.
> At some point maybe when the pound is one euro i can see our leaders joining and thus making everything from europe even more expensive.
> This may lead to higher pay demands and further ruin this island which was called Great Britain.
> It is now refered to as Britian.
> 
> So i vote no to euro.
> 
> Pull out of europe with all its unelected and over expensive snout in the trough beaurocrats and mp`s.
> Unfortunatley as the club gets larger it is less efficient and more costly to run, just like the old Russian empire really
> 
> Rant over
> Dave P
> 
> Oh and i am ENGLISH


Do you know how much it will cost to pull out are there any figures laid down?

Ray


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## SidT

*Zozzer*, I am not apathetic, I just don't see any point in this vote. If it came to a proper vote I would vote against but only because on our travels in Belgium, Germany and France, they all say we would regret changing to the Euro because they have all seen their prices rise dramatically immediately after changing to the Euro.
Cheers Sid


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## peedee

Thanks Noel,
I was hoping some of MHF members in the euro zone would comment. It would be very interesting to hear first hand more views from you as to whether you have been worse or better off in the euro zone and the reasons why.

peedee


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## Carper

peedee said:


> Carper said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you class as "knocking on a bit"? I'm in my 40's...just :lol: and i'm anti euro.
> Doug
> 
> 
> 
> Doug take a look at >this poll< only 3 percent of members are under 35 with the majority over 55.
> 
> I think there is far too much nonsense spoken about the EEC. Over the years I have been visiting the continent, yes it has got more expensive but so have things in the UK and it would have probably been the case anyway even without the euro. Most of our trade is with the EU so if the pound falls further and even below the euro it will be more expensive anyway. I don't think increased cost of goods is a valid argument for staying out. It could happen anyway.
> 
> peedee
Click to expand...

....I wish i was in the 3% bracket :lol: :lol:

If you look at the bigger picture, then yes you are right, the cost of goods isn't a valid argument. If you look at it from how it would directly effect us, then it is a very valid point. Perhaps we will agree to disagree on that point :lol:

By the way Peedee...i am going to blame you when the Ayatollah wants to know why i haven't finished papering the hall and stairs :lol: :lol:

Doug


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## moblee

Keep the pound & *some* form of identity :!: 
(without being prejudice) If euroland is so much better why is england *swamped* with immigrants illegal or otherwise.With the recession getting worse i don't think joining the euro's going to improve stability either.

Rant OVER


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## zulurita

I vote for having the Euro. i only wish we had changed when when most countries did in 2000 or was it 2001?

Anyway it would make life a lot easier when travelling and wouldn't have to keep worrying about exchange rates.


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## locovan

SidT said:


> *Zozzer*, I am not apathetic, I just don't see any point in this vote. If it came to a proper vote I would vote against but only because on our travels in Belgium, Germany and France, they all say we would regret changing to the Euro because they have all seen their prices rise dramatically immediately after changing to the Euro.
> Cheers Sid


You dont know who watches or takes part in the MHF forum's there are people from all walks of life here and can hide behind their cover name.
So somone from the Goverment (todays or tomorrows) may be watching and taking note or even voting. 
   

Ray


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## 104477

SidT:- The reason I set up a poll was to test the validity of the newspaper poll, also I am very interested in what way people will vote.

The membership here are indeed a good cross section, we have many people from all fields of employment, education and a good dash of civil servants, nursing, police and fire officers etc, still working or retired. All these people are from different backgrounds but with a common interest, motorhomes of one type or another.
I have not yet voted as I did not want to affect the poll.
The number of views will not reflect apathy or otherwise as many people , like myself, will look in to check how the poll is going. I have four times now and I don't believe we are an apathetic bunch of people, apathetics wouldn't care to look at the question. :wink: 

Rob.


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## kayg

I'm in the 3% bracket - Yay!!!!!!!!


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## locovan

kayg said:


> I'm in the 3% bracket - Yay!!!!!!!!


Im jelous I wish I was !!!!!! 

mavis


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## kayg

locovan said:


> kayg said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in the 3% bracket - Yay!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Im jelous I wish I was !!!!!!
> 
> mavis
Click to expand...

If it makes you feel better, it feels like I have the knees of a 97 year old today. They don't like the cold weather. As they say in these parts "I've gone off my back legs"


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## asabrush

Prices went up on everything when Ireland changed to euro :evil: Some shops took huge advantage and took the urine.

I'm in agreement with all who've said it makes travelling easier,except when I come back to the Uk!

I just slipped out of the 3% this July :wink:


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## Annsman

If we changed about this time then with the £ being so low there migh not be much difference in prices....if there was a straight swap. But as someone else said the shops would just creep a few extra Euros on the price because in the confusion who would notice. But to counteract that we could run with joint price tags for say 6-12 months. Trade in Euros but have the equivalent in Euros next to it. Like they do with meat & veg and some shops, (M&S, BHS etc), do now, then the "spivs" could be named and shamed.

From what I've noticed over the past few months the small currencies are the ones that speculators are targetting, the £ now coming into that category from a currency investors view.

Travelling around Europe would be simpler, prices would still differ of course between countries as they do now but banks etc couldn't take a cut of your holiday money.

There are initial downsides to any change I'm sure, but the metric weighing system is here now to all intents and purposes, so the currency can't be that far behind, and I for one ain't that bovvered! As long as you can still pay your bills with it who really is affected by what symbol is used before the numbers?


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## raynipper

Any kind of change and prices go up. Decimalisation or the Euro. I'm sure hard pressed retailers will always err on the side or rounding up as against rounding down.

I was all in favour of the Euro accross Europe. A bit like the Dollar across the states. But it hasn't worked like that. Cash is OK but when you take a German Euro cheque and deposit into a French bank they charge €17 for the service. 
So much for harmony.

Ray, with my pension worth 15% less in 12 months.


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## 101405

*euro*

All good things come to an End,If you join a club you have to abide by its rules, The €URO. All price labels and descriptions will have 2 prices 1 in €'s and 1 in £'s at the exchange rate declared on going In. we are not the only ones thinking off joining.Denmark ,poland ect . "quote"things may still have to get worse before the British conclude they would be better sharing monetary sovereignty with France and Germany or risk the fate of Iceland or Hungary.(New York times 2/12/2008)


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## tincan

Peedee, 
while prices seemed to escalate when we changed over, as they did when we went decimal in '71, that was the fault of greedy retailers rather than the Establishment. Their aim was to keep inflation under control but as our economy was racing along not too many baulked at the price hikes favouring complaining instead of taking their custom elsewhere. One of the disadvantages in the relationship with your pound and the dollar is - when fluctuations favour the retailer prices shoot up immediately but when the punter should see a like reduction the old excuses are dragged out, buying forward etc etc. 
Oil prices are a good example of this, although with the current slowdown we are now seeing diesel at just below €1 for the first time since 2005. But clothing from your leading double barrelled name high street retailer is still based on currency quotes 12 months ago, the excuse is that they pay based on prices quoted when ordered but what are the odds of this ever favouring the shopper ( allegedly) . To avoid queries they now just show the local price where a few months ago prices were displayed in both GBP and €. 
On the plus side we have sales in almost all stores now which would never had happened before the recession but that probably applies over there too.
The real bonus for folks like us who regularly travel to France and Germany is that we know exactly what we are paying for goods and have the convenience of being able to use the regular cash in our wallets. Credit card companies still charge a levy on each transaction for international trading so we tend to use cash using Cirrus or Maestro ATMs when we need to top up

Noel


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## peedee

raynipper said:


> when you take a German Euro cheque and deposit into a French bank they charge €17 for the service.
> So much for harmony.
> 
> Ray, with my pension worth 15% less in 12 months.


That is scandalous! French banks have always been a rip off. I once and only once cashed a sterling travellers cheque in a French bank, the charges were extortionate.

peedee


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## DABurleigh

Well with 33 posts on the subject, IMHO there is much emotion and heat, but little light. This Government posed 5 economic tests, endorsed by the IMF, as criteria for the wisdom of joining the euro, as a precursor to a referendum:



> Are business cycles and economic structures compatible so that we and others could live comfortably with euro interest rates on a permanent basis?
> 
> If problems emerge is there sufficient flexibility to deal with them?
> 
> Would joining EMU create better conditions for firms making long-term decisions to invest in Britain?
> 
> What impact would entry into EMU have on the competitive position of the UK's financial services industry, particularly the City's wholesale markets?
> 
> In summary, will joining EMU promote higher growth, stability and a lasting increase in jobs?


At the most recent assessment, the UK was judged to fail 4 out of these 5. Now, the economic world has changed, and there has been the odd superficial claim from those with a predictable self-interested political line to pursue that things have changed, but AFAIK there has been no argument of substance to counter the status quo. Perhaps someone would enlighten me if I've missed something.

Dave


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## 115421

"Poll 67 for Euro 32 against. 

Not too many Express readers on here then? "

I have just tried to vote and been told I need 5 posts on forum before I can vote. Perhaps this explains some of the lack of votes?

Right, just another 4 posts to go....


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## DABurleigh

Well, welcome to MHF I say, but you are a sad individual to choose this topic for your first MHF motorhome post! 

Dave


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## locovan

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...think+again+about+joining+the+euro/article.do

On this MHF forum where you have put your views it is 11 for the Euro and 9 against

I have found this link to the Evening Standard does it help.

Ray


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## DABurleigh

Thanks Ray. I have found Roland Rudd rather a stuck record on Europe. As a big financial PR man his tactics strike me as if you claim something as fact long and hard enough, more people will believe you. As he originally studied philosophy and theology, perhaps that is where his evangelism comes from.

I find his article utterly uncompelling, mainly from its lack of coherent argument. Still, what do I know, he has more money than I have even if I won the lottery many times over :-(

Dave


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## joedenise

I agree with Wobby - the Euro would be a good thing but not while the exchange rate is so bad.

Den


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## ubuntu1

*Euro v GBP*

It seems that people think that if your pro Europe then you can't be British. Well I'm proud to be English, British and European. My European friends are happy to be German, Dutch, Belgian or Spanish and European.

It doesn't matter what you think, the UK is intrinsically linked to Europe. Most of our major export markets are within Europe. All of the anti-European press must damage UK business in Europe.

I say bring on the Euro, stop whining about the EU and enjoy being part of the most beautiful continent on earth.


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## 107088

*Re: Euro v GBP*



ubuntu1 said:


> It doesn't matter what you think, the UK is intrinsically linked to Europe. Most of our major export markets are within Europe. All of the anti-European press must damage UK business in Europe.
> 
> I say bring on the Euro, stop whining about the EU and enjoy being part of the most beautiful continent on earth.


I'm not whining, I just dont agree with your views, and have my own thoughts on the matter. Incidentally, I think that the most beautifull continent on earth is Antarctica. Mainly 'cos we humans havent had the chance to completley bugger it up yet.


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## peedee

> Are business cycles and economic structures compatible so that we and others could live comfortably with euro interest rates on a permanent basis?
> 
> If problems emerge is there sufficient flexibility to deal with them?
> 
> Would joining EMU create better conditions for firms making long-term decisions to invest in Britain?
> 
> What impact would entry into EMU have on the competitive position of the UK's financial services industry, particularly the City's wholesale markets?
> 
> In summary, will joining EMU promote higher growth, stability and a lasting increase in jobs?


Dave these are hardly questions that people in the street can make a judgment on. They also don't tell us what the impact is on the individual and the country as a whole and our way of life. There is little point in having a referendum and there is no chance of swaying public opinion one way or the other without explaining this to the people even if the government thought the conditions were met.

peedee


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## DABurleigh

peedee said:


> Are business cycles and economic structures compatible so that we and others could live comfortably with euro interest rates on a permanent basis?
> 
> If problems emerge is there sufficient flexibility to deal with them?
> 
> Would joining EMU create better conditions for firms making long-term decisions to invest in Britain?
> 
> What impact would entry into EMU have on the competitive position of the UK's financial services industry, particularly the City's wholesale markets?
> 
> In summary, will joining EMU promote higher growth, stability and a lasting increase in jobs?
> 
> 
> 
> Dave these are hardly questions that people in the street can make a judgment on. They also don't tell us what the impact is on the individual and the country as a whole and our way of life. There is little point in having a referendum and there is no chance of swaying public opinion one way or the other without explaining this to the people even if the government thought the conditions were met.
> 
> peedee
Click to expand...

Which thoughts make me fervently hope that I never get subjected to the justice of "12 good men and true" with anything than can't get explained on the front page of The Sun.

Dave


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## peedee

or the Daily Mail for that matter!

peedee


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## julie798

*euro*

I'm not whining, I just dont agree with your views, and have my own thoughts on the matter. Incidentally, I think that the most beautifull continent on earth is Antarctica. Mainly 'cos we humans havent had the chance to completley bugger it up yet.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## SpeedyDux

Given the current slump in High Street retail sales I seriously doubt if retailers would see joining the Euro as an opportunity to raise prices. In fact this would be the ideal time to join if that was the main objection.

In the long run the Euro would benefit the UK. 

The USA once had States with individual currencies. The arguments against unifying their currencies were similar to those being put forward today in favour of keeping Sterling and not joining the Euro. Would the USA have become an economic superpower with the world's main reserve currency if they had taken the decision not to make the Dollar a common currency for all States?

I resent paying a "tax" on my holiday to the Banks every time I need to buy Euros.


SD


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## JohnH

I voted for keeping the pound; t this moment in time. We should have joined the Euro years ago when the exchange rate would have minimized the impact on prices over here. If we were to join either now or the relative near future the impact on prices and on investments and savings would be a catastrophe.
I believe that joining anything should be done at a moment of strength and at the current point in time we are in a position of weakness against other currencies.
Perhaps in the future, were this poll to be presented we would all have a different opinion but for the moment. sadly, I will be holidaying at home and cutting my cloth accordingly.
John


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## Coulstock

I can't find the option to vote anywhere but I think that as I voted on another thread a couple of days ago it may well be merged into this census -


I've always made a judgement on this issue on the basis of who was against it. ( joining the Euro that is ) The City was and still is against it and if you think the City has always acted in the best interests of the average UK citizen you haven't read the papers in the last year !


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## bognormike

Coulstock - if you haven't voted on this thread, you should be able to - just go to the first post - the options should be there.


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## pnewbery

I resent paying a "tax" on my holiday to the Banks every time I need to buy Euros.

Then you should get a bank account which does not charge for cash machine withdrawals abroad and charges a very reasonable exchange rate. Mentioning no names, but .... there has been a series of adverts highlighting the greed of the big banks and customers opting to take their accounts elsewhere. Follow my drift?

As regards the "success" of the Euro, This from an economist...

"As with every gloomy story, there is always a positive side. One welcome casualty will likely be the misguided climate change agenda being quietly abandoned as it is simply no longer affordable in today’s economic conditions.

The shake-out may also bring an end to the euro as a multinational currency. For as demands on government budgets grow – to prop up banks, provide fiscal stimulus and simply because tax revenue falls in recessions as welfare expenditure rises – some EU government debts are beginning to look unsustainable. The Irish government has sold bonds to borrow €4 billion for three years, and has had to pay 1.2% more interest than the German government would for a similar loan. 

It also looks bad for Italy, whose government has huge debts (109% of GDP) and for Greece, where the going rate on government debt is around 1.5% above German rates. Even our own Debt Management Office, which looks after British government borrowing, is anxious whether financial markets will comfortably digest the £100 billion or so of bonds that it will have to sell in this financial year.

This can only mean that the markets are viewing these sovereign debts as a poor risk. If, as the slump deepens, some euro zone government finds itself no longer able to borrow on any reasonable terms, its only recourse is to go begging to other governments. The EU might be able to help the Irish as theirs is a small economy (perhaps in return for ratifying the Lisbon treaty). But if a large country such as Italy is facing default, there is no way that other EU countries could realistically provide support or guarantees. The only avenue left for Italy would be to re-issue its own currency and devalue, effectively reneging on its debts.

If one or more EU countries should ditch the euro and be forced to go their own way we may hopefully begin to see a wider realisation that, while trade and co-operation between independent countries benefits all, political union is ultimately unworkable."

Guess what, I voted for the Pound!


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## eddied

*Pounds or Euro?*

 Ciao tutti,
well I just voted for the Euro.
If you look at the exchange rate today, £1 = €1.15 if you're lucky; as opposed to 1.45 a year ago; it is patently obvious that you are virtually at a stage of 'eins fur eins' as was called the parity between Swiss Francs and Deutschmarks years ago.
Some people keep telling me that the Euro is grossly overvalued, and the Pound Sterling undervalued, but I don't believe that in the current situation.
It is interesting to note that countries where personal credit (mortgages and credit cards) were historically difficult to obtain e.g. Italy, Spain, are at the monent weathering the credit crunch better,because more personal savings are in Government bonds and Post Offices, and there is much less personal debt to banks and credit card companies.
If and when the changeover happens, it is less likely to cause unjustified price increases in the Sterling area because you are used to using Pounds and pence, and you will watch the 'pennies' or the 'cents'.
When the changeover took place here in Italy, prices increased rapidly because people just were not used to watching the 'cents'. If an item had been say 10,000 lire, and the official changeover rate was 1936.27 lire to the Euro, it should have been tagged at €5.16, but it was oh so easy to tag it at €6, and nobody really took much notice.
People still tend to think of high cost things like houses say in terms of their worth in Lire.
I think it extremely unlikely that the Berlusconi government would consider for one minute reverting to Lire. Italy has a chronic national debt situation, credit crunch or no credit crunch, and changing the currency is not going to change that.
I personally am already suffering, as many like myself, because Pension funds I have in Sterling have rapidly decreased in value. With hindsight (a wonderful thing I know!) should have converted them to Euro months ago. :roll: 
So what does the panel think? Is the pound going to recover?
saluti,
eddied


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## Pusser

I don't understand really why some members whilst supporting the pound which is their entitlement appear not to mention that they are preferring to support a currency that is or very nearly is worthless to the rest of the world. The mass of red has long since gone on the world atlas and we are basically a beligerent little spec of dirt anchored off the mainland still thinking we are a nation to be feared, if not, held in wonderment and desirability. The only thing desireable to Joe foreigner is the amount of things we give them for nothing and/or the jobs which no Englishman should ever be asked to do like jobs that require hard work.

This country is finished and it has surprised me that it has managed to last as long as it has so credit where credit is due. We are masters of the illusion bizarely to ourselves too.

Now, thank God, with the USA to slowly sink into obscurity, we have no big brother that allows us to shout and bully other countries so we had better watch what we do or say in the future particularly if we wish to remain isolated from the EEEC.

We had everything after the sacrifices of millions of Europeans in two world wars and we have, by allowing arrogant and dishonest people to run our country and councils frittered all those immense sacrifices away.

I expect this post will disgust some members but not half as much as I am disgusted with UK Limited. (Now Uk very Limited)


----------



## pippin

Succinctly put Pusser.

However: _or the jobs which no English*man* should ever be asked to do like jobs that require hard work. _

I am glad that you are not lumping the Welsh, Scots and (Northern?) Irish in with the lazy Englanders!

I will leave the bra-burning brigade to deal with the gender issue!


----------



## 107088

Pusser
Whilst I admire and enjoy your humour, and sometimes your ability to cut to the crux of some matters, I do wonder what on earth this country has done to make you hate it so much. Seldom do I ever read a positive post from you regarding the UK? 

Is there nothing about Great Britain which makes you even slightly ok to be part of it?


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## pnewbery

Wow, Pusser, and you think the dishonesty in UK Ltd. is bad. Might I suggest you probe a little deeper into how Europe Ltd is run. I think you'll find we are leaping, by default, from the frying pan into the fire!

The European parliament is anything but democratic, the audits of the accounts have not been signed off for the past 12 (or is it more) years, it is the most corrupt organisation outside of the maffia and even they have standards!

I know you have to take whatever is posted by any political grouping with a pinch of salt, but take a look at UKIP's , OpenEurope's , or Euro Sceptic's web pages for some examples. It might serve to balance the pro Europe rhetoric we are regaled with on a daily basis by other political groupings.


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## bigfoot

Today base rate down to 2% and pound 1.15 Euros-looks like its on it way to the Euro.


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## Pusser

Answering the above 3 posts which have made some very fair and valid comments it is true to say that I got unfairly caught in the legal system and suffered for nothing as did my family for around 2 years. But this was almost a "told you so" event to me as charging around the world in the navy I was able to see first hand what this country has done to others and I hope understand why the Americans in particular and us lumped in with them are so resented.

So I look at history and even the bits we wrote, never mind the history the countries we hurt wrote make it quite clear that many of the worlds problems can be traced back to us. I am sure there are exceptions to the rule but in general terms we are almost singularly responsible for the outcomes to many a troubled country.

Then we look at how we got the Great into GB. Well, the slave trade was a tremendous fillip and example as to UK's fortunes with our historical nautical heroes being the main dealers. It is quite amazing that we entitle slave traders Sir and even more amazing that these titles were not stripped off them even post humously (hope I haven't just written Post Funny)/


I can remember what was called the Confrontation which is so many words were an infliltration of very young teengage Indonesians with arms supplied by Russia.

This was all entwined with the Yanks in Vietnam and I understood the Yanks and UK were fighting the a tide of communism sweeping down through Asia. Well, the Yanks, after killing many asians and many of their youngsters lost. Can anyone tell me what happened and where did the wave of communism go to .

The the good old Falklands, neglected by GB for many years and as near to us as Barbados and yet it apparently it is ours and not Argentinas even though they were in a positon to fund the needs of the islands as regards schools and hospitals but whatever one determines whose it is through history they was no need to kill so many people just to keep our Prime Minister in power for a few months longer.

Iraq and Afghanistan I won't go into as everyone is aware of the stupidity, futility of these wars knowing e.g well ina dvnace that the might of Russia could not do anything against the Taliban but probably due to the fact we were suppling the Taliban with arms. Of course now we are a little upset that the Taliban are getting arms from ex Soviet countries and arab states. My main concern again is the loss of life on both sides and for what and for why.

I suppose I ought to stop here as I am rambling again but in essence, I feel the British public have always been taken for a ride and I know that the majority of British people are good and honest but are susceptable to being whipped up by the media and government who know the deep sense of pride most voters have and abuse this on a daily basis.

Of course none of my views are set in stone and I may be entirely wrong. Oh how I wish.


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## bognormike

Much as Pussers' last post is in response to queries from other members, can we please draw a line under that & get back on to topic?

It was about whether we should join the Euro, remember that? OK :!:


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## Pusser

Sorry BM. That was my fault.


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## 107088

I agree....job done so far as I am concerned.

Now.....where were we? ...oh yes, do we want a politically invented currency, made up by the Germano-french in an attempt to take over the continent, as they failed, by other means, to do so in the past....


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## 107088

Sorted, Pusser done the job.....


So whats the question?

Oh Yes, do we want a currency invented by a Franco-Germanic alliance to take over the continent as they failed to do so in the past, using other means?


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## bigfoot

The Euro was railroaded through and some countries did not adopt it.
IMHO the Germans have succeeded financially what they could'nt do militarily in 1939-45!!


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## SpeedyDux

In reply to pnewberry's post:

_"Then you should get a bank account which does not charge for cash machine withdrawals abroad and charges a very reasonable exchange rate. Mentioning no names, but .... there has been a series of adverts highlighting the greed of the big banks and customers opting to take their accounts elsewhere. Follow my drift? "_

Perhaps I should clarify what I meant about banks charging us a tax on our holidays. Unless you have a foreign currency bank account in the UK denominated in Euros (which I used to have, but the bank paid zero interest on the balance, and I had to pay various charges too) you will end up paying a bit more than is necessary just to get Euros.

Every time you change your Pounds into Euros, you will get the "tourist" rate which is well below the spot exchange rate. The margin the Bank charges you, before any commission, is about 3%. Therefore the Bank levies a 3% tax on your holidays.

I agree with pnewberry that you can avoid the extra charges that some banks add on top e.g. a cash withdrawal charge for using your debit card in an ATM abroad, but it still doesn't get round the basic problem that all the Banks make a lot of money out of the need for retail customers to buy Euros for their holidays.

That's why it always annoys me when I have to buy Euros at below the spot rate. Let's join the Euro and get rid of this nonsense.

All the Eurozone countries, including Italy and Ireland, will sink or swim together. The UK is sinking fast so let's hope they throw us a lifebelt very soon.

SD


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## Waggy

Those who are concerned only with the cost of changing their holiday currency should raise their sights slightly and consider the important issues.

A country that controls its currency and interest rates at least has (or should have) some control over its economy. The 'one size fits all' will never be suitable for everyone from Greece to Eastern Europe.

Rest assured that when the chips are down, the French, Germans, and Italians will look after their own interests and to hell with the rest.


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## 107088

Yes, what Waggy said.........


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## aultymer

> Rest assured that when the chips are down, the French, Germans, and Italians will look after their own interests and to hell with the rest.


In the far North we are accustomed to suffering from policies designed to help the overheated south at the expense of the rest of the UK. 
It could not be any worse to be governed from Berlin or Paris - all capital cities have their share of chancers, thieves and pure ar$ehole$ who are interested in their bonuses and to hell with everyone else. 
Many of us would welcome independence within Europe rather than suffer another London inspired Thatcher dictatorship.


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## 107088

Thats an excellent plan then you could get your subsidies from the whole of Europe instead of relying on the Southern dictatorship.


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## aultymer

> Thats an excellent plan then you could get your subsidies from the whole of Europe instead of relying on the Southern dictatorship.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: all the way to the bank.


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## 107088

Nothing like biting the hand that feeds you.


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## aultymer

I am fed by my customers in Hong Kong, Canada, the USA and Europe and I could do without the hastle of converting Euros to pounds and the fluctuations of the Pound v's the US Dollar. 
I also suffered when the interest rate was raised to 16% to solve a particular London problem under the dictatorship.


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## DABurleigh

I toured Europe in 2000 on work matters, and the EU/Euro was an underlying theme. The short answer was:

1) Germany was in favour of EU/Euro because it didn't trust itself.
2) France wanted to pursue the opportunity of EU/Euroland being a Greater France.
3) Eastern Europe wanted to join to protect themselves against Russia
4) Everyone else just wanted to be looked after by a bigger club.

As to Scotland's subsidies and their independence, the negotiation over the carving up of oil and gas revenues would probably take many years, but with independent reasonable assumptions based on relevant international law, it seems that:

1) Even if Scotland had had the oil revenue, it would still have been receiving a substantial net subsidy from England for the last 18 years.
2) Looking ahead, again with Scotland having the oil revenue, it would still be receiving a net English subsidy so long as the crude barrel price was below $120 (it is currently $45). 
3) WITHOUT the oil revenue, Scotland's fiscal balance (subsidy from England) has tripled under the Scots-led Whitehall politicians leading this UK Government. 

Dave


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## teemyob

*Euro*

I remember when, back in the day when £1 bought €1.61.

If that were the case today, I doubt we would still be living and working in the UK for very long.

Trev.


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## aultymer

I am not sure where oil revenues come into a discussion on Euro or no. 
My point is that it makes little difference whether we are ruled from far away London or just a bit further away Paris - they are both full of merchant bankers who are screwing us all for their own good - and I don't mean just those in Government! 
I suppose that the successful French invasion of England is so far away that the english have forgotten their real roots hence the fear of government from Europe. A by product of this fear is the irrational clinging to 'the Pound' which, after all is known by the Roman symbol for Lira so it is not even an Anglo Saxon currency.


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## thieawin

When did £1 ever buy €1.81?

Until the 1920's of course, and then from1948 to the mid1970's we did have not just a European currency but a world currency

Originally currency value was in precious metal. Sovereigns could be spent on the continent in my great grandparentst day. Currency values were fixed but related tio the gold in their coins

From end WW2 and Bretton Woods we had fixed exchange rates with dollar convertibility into gold the dollar was the world currency

So countries played with interest rates or allowed inflation or eventuallly devalued as economic tools, gaining advantage here or there but usually at a long term price in inflation and exported unemployment or they overheated and revalued

The Euro is not a political tajke over but a long term economic tool clearly part of the European ideal of peace between previously warring nations and betterment for all Europe.

With one currency and one interest rate rate these political movemenst to gain short term advantage disappear. There are still ways ofstimulating local economies, tax, direct and indirect, release of land for building, governmenty expenditure but if run well a single currency should result in low and stable inflation, converging economic growthi and incresdaing freedom of movement of labour so labour comet to where the jobs are so getting rid of, for opnec and for all economic over heating due to lack of skill and population base

Of course there have to be rules about the size of governmmt debt to make it work. The problem of States or Cities going insolvent happens in the US stil, so its bound to be a factor in the Euro zone. Thing is its better than anything anyone has done before and should help guarantee peace to the extent we are all totally interdependent on each other.


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## teemyob

*When*



thieawin said:


> When did £1 ever buy €1.61?
> 
> Until the 1920's of course, and then from1948 to the mid1970's we did have not just a European currency but a world currency
> 
> Originally currency value was in precious metal. Sovereigns could be spent on the continent in my great grandparentst day. Currency values were fixed but related tio the gold in their coins
> 
> From end WW2 and Bretton Woods we had fixed exchange rates with dollar convertibility into gold the dollar was the world currency
> 
> So countries played with interest rates or allowed inflation or eventuallly devalued as economic tools, gaining advantage here or there but usually at a long term price in inflation and exported unemployment or they overheated and revalued
> 
> The Euro is not a political tajke over but a long term economic tool clearly part of the European ideal of peace between previously warring nations and betterment for all Europe.
> 
> With one currency and one interest rate rate these political movemenst to gain short term advantage disappear. There are still ways ofstimulating local economies, tax, direct and indirect, release of land for building, governmenty expenditure but if run well a single currency should result in low and stable inflation, converging economic growthi and incresdaing freedom of movement of labour so labour comet to where the jobs are so getting rid of, for opnec and for all economic over heating due to lack of skill and population base
> 
> Of course there have to be rules about the size of governmmt debt to make it work. The problem of States or Cities going insolvent happens in the US stil, so its bound to be a factor in the Euro zone. Thing is its better than anything anyone has done before and should help guarantee peace to the extent we are all totally interdependent on each other.[/quote
> 
> Not long after introduction, I have just destroyed some old Bank Statements where my exchange rate was just short of 1.61€ to £1
> 
> Trev.


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## thieawin

Pound Euro rate never reached €1.81. You may have been ripped off by some foregn exchange rip off merchant buying back sterling and even then for two very short periods in 2000

worst rate is now €1.15, best was about €1.75

Wen it all satrted it was €1.40 approx. That was too high. It was then in the 1.60's for two yeras but since 2003 has bounced around in the 1.40's


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## tincan

I remember reading an article just before the €uro was introduced. It took a notional sum of £100 and went around Europe changing the £100 into local currency in every country without spending any. By the time they got back home they were left with something of the order of £12 due to bank charges imposed each time the cash was changed. That is gone for us with the few exceptions like the UK. I think its great

Noel


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## 104477

With 169 people voting, thankyou for doing so  , 62% of you voted to go over to the Euro.

So, as I thought, the newspapers are only good for starting the wood burner.
Glad I don't buy them!

Thanks all, Rob.


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## Rapide561

*£ or Euro*

I am all for the pound. I just wish it would strengthen dramatically. Havin just returned from overseas, I shall not be going back until the rate improves.

The cash rate is now virtually one for one, meaning, effectively diesel is dearer in France than here! Yikes.

Of course, when the Euro was 1.5 to the pound, I would have said yes, let's go for it and join up.

Russell


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## 101405

Now you understand how expensive euroland is compared to the uk.
The pound has been overvalued for a long time, thank your lucky stars you dont live in france or Germany ,


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## thieawin

But the thing is from an economic point of view going in when sterling is weak and the Euro is strong makes huge economic sense in terms of competing.

There are three questions we need to ask ourselves

1. Why is the £ so weak. The reason is we have a difficult time ahead of us economically and will have to borrow. The problem is we have huge borrowings already both at National and individual levels. It is no good blaming Tony or Gordon without blaming Thatcher and de regulation which is pure monetarism. De regulation and its adoption by New Labour allowed us to spend spend spend and have a high exchange rate we could not afford, for the last 10 years. You have to blame yourselves. Who of you has not released equity or borrowed on credit cards. It will be a long time before sentiment allows the £ to strengthen

2. Why is the dollar so strong when the US economy and debt is just as bad as the UK. Watch, the dollar will fall. We may see £1.00 to $1.75 or we may stick at £1.00 =$1.50 for sometime. However as commodities are priced in Dollars we have seen a 25% increase in real terms in last 6 months, also in import costs. In theory we should be able to export. Lets not forget, even after all the damage done by Thatcher and the much less damage done by labour (high currency apart) we are still the 5th largest industrial manufacturing economy in the world

3. Why is the Euro so high. Because one or two cases such as Ireland will not pull it down. German productivity and out put is high, borrowng generally is low. Personal borrowing is only a fraction of US UK figures. It has the ability to do a Keynesian borrow and spend out of recession, no one is sure we or the US can

So, looking at the past and examples such as Ireland and spain and even Slovakia and Poland we need to go in at the right level. As the Euro is high that means for all other international trade we need to go in low, similraly with intra EU trade we need to go in low.


Before sterling wass too high and we could not have weakened it artificially, Now it is weak we can go in at £=€ and enjoy the rewards of a recovering and expanding economy.


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## aultymer

thieawin 
Well said!! 
Even the Sun readers should understand your reasoning.


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## hblewett

Carper said:


> _*
> I worked in Germany in '87 for a very succsesful German businessman. He said to me that if Germany was an island, they would have nothing to do with the rest of Europe and its hangers on..."they will drag us all down" was his view
> 
> Doug*_


_*

Perhaps it would be best to re-locate to Switzerland - they have been an 'island' for years - it kept them out of WW2 and gives then a GDP per head about double that of its surrounding EU neighbours. Otherwise Norway - outside EU but with similar GPD/head to Switzerland*_


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## thieawin

so why is the value of the kroner falling in euro and dollar terms


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## 101405

YES YES!! Well said ,when will the average british punter learn .Its beyond sun readers ! you need a nil IQ , But Murdock did help to get Thatcher out, (bite my lip).


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## cabby

My opinion is that we should never have joined the EU in the first place.As to currency, we should keep the pound and the guinea as well. 8) I can understand why we went metric, but I did not agree with the reasoning.
I have read that there is a conspiracy theory that this government wishes to take us all the way into a European state at whatever the cost.all of us must agree that cost have gone through the roof over the last 12 years.
Unemployment figures have been massaged by expanding employment in government.we have to pay the wages. Oh I could go on all night. :roll: :roll: 

cabby


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## jams101

rapidorob said:


> From the post by Kayg the Express states that 94% of us want to keep the pound. Is this true?
> MHF members form a good cross section of society, so I put it to you,
> British Pound Or Euro?
> 
> Thanks, Rob.


Sorry to hijack the thread....I am irish have the euro love the convienence and can't see all the fuss it about....

Anyhow you say mhf is a good cross section of society......no blacks, no asians, or anything else other than saxon white.....correct me if I am wrong and I hope I am......but is mhf like a roving kkk....only jokin off course not but not that diverse in this respect as far as i can see...

Sorry not back to all you brits giving over about the euro, sure on only upwards of 250,000,000 people use it everyday, but i would never trust it....


----------



## 107088

jams101 said:


> Anyhow you say mhf is a good cross section of society......no blacks, no asians, or anything else other than saxon white.....correct me if I am wrong and I hope I am......but is mhf like a roving kkk....only jokin off course not but not that diverse in this respect as far as i can see...
> 
> Sorry not back to all you brits giving over about the euro, sure on only upwards of 250,000,000 people use it everyday, but i would never trust it....


100 million people in Africa have HIV/AIDS, numbers dont make something right, nor offer a convincing reason..... what do I know....apart from the fact that I object to the comment you posted ( as in the quote box); that was uncalled for, ignorant, presumptive and in bad taste,

only joking of course.


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## aultymer

> 100 million people in Africa have HIV/AIDS, numbers dont make something right, nor offer a convincing reason





> about the euro, sure on only upwards of 250,000,000 people use it everyday,


You pick the group you want to be assocciated with Bandaid, but I will stick with the Euro guys!!


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## locovan

jams101 said:


> rapidorob said:
> 
> 
> 
> From the post by Kayg the Express states that 94% of us want to keep the pound. Is this true?
> MHF members form a good cross section of society, so I put it to you,
> British Pound Or Euro?
> 
> Thanks, Rob.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to hijack the thread....I am irish have the euro love the convienence and can't see all the fuss it about....
> 
> Anyhow you say mhf is a good cross section of society......no blacks, no asians, or anything else other than saxon white.....correct me if I am wrong and I hope I am......but is mhf like a roving kkk....only jokin off course not but not that diverse in this respect as far as i can see...
> 
> Sorry not back to all you brits giving over about the euro, sure on only upwards of 250,000,000 people use it everyday, but i would never trust it....
Click to expand...

We didnt have to put creed or colour on our Profile so how do you know who the members on the forum are we are all hiding behind a Avatar :?


----------



## 107088

aultymer said:


> 100 million people in Africa have HIV/AIDS, numbers dont make something right, nor offer a convincing reason
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> about the euro, sure on only upwards of 250,000,000 people use it everyday,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You pick the group you want to be assocciated with Bandaid, but I will stick with the Euro guys!!
Click to expand...

I was merely trying to demonstrate that numbers alone cannot be used to prove or disprove an argument. I would prefer not to be associated with either group given the choice...

I reckon my problem is I'm too British to be Eurpoean or anything else. therefore, to me, nowhere else is as good. Old fashioned maybe, but thats what I think, if nobody else does, then fine, I'm in a minority of 1,


----------



## peedee

I am as British as you are Bandaid and even prouder to be English but you sound just like my father and father-in-law, too stuck in the past to move forward.

peedee


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## bognormike

Well, a somewhat surprising scoreline for a group of what should be Sun & Daily Mail reading white middle class, middle-english, and I forgot - middle aged stereotypical members of this web site (Jams101 - I note your no doubt joking reference, which was somewhat unnneccesary, and has been pointed out, how do you know what the ethnic / age mix of the members on here is?). 

Perhaps a bit of realism from quite a few of us as to the situation in Europe (maybe from quite a few members who actually are experienced in travelling to other European countries) without jingoistic biased reporting & the ability to think for ourselves?
8)

I should declare a bit of pro-european bias, please note the flag in my details on the left. :roll:


----------



## passionwagon

colonel said:


> Poll 67 for Euro 32 against.
> 
> Not too many Express readers on here then?
> :lol:


 :idea: We can now change to the Euro at no cost . Just replace the £ sign with Euro sign and all systems , balances etc are done. Coinage and notes stay unchanged until the next reprint etc.Simple solutions. Before it would have cost millions and taken 2-3 years of planning. :wink:


----------



## Waggy

peedee said:


> I am as British as you are Bandaid and even prouder to be English but you sound just like my father and father-in-law, too stuck in the past to move forward.
> 
> peedee


That's fine if there is somewhere better to move forward to. The grass is always greener......

My theory is that there are a lot of people on here whose main concern is the cost of their jollies in Europe next year.

Now where is that parapet :lol: :lol:


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## roger-the-lodger

Waggy said:


> ... My theory is that there are a lot of people on here whose main concern is the cost of their jollies in Europe next year. ...


And perhaps a few relying on savings income to supplement their pensions who now have much more to worry about than whether or not they can have a "jolly". Those savage reductions in returns to savers caused by exactly the same Brown policy that has so weakened our currency!

And perhaps a few who have concerns about folk losing jobs and homes, even if they themselves are lucky enough to be more secure.

Funny how recessions bring out the mean-spirited! :roll: At least we know what you think of your fellow motor-homers!!!

Roger


----------



## thieawin

This is world wide. How is Brown any more responsible than all the other prime Ministers, Presidents, Finance Ministers and Central bankers who let the good times roll on until we were bust and then had to apply the brakes and lower interest rates


----------



## 107088

peedee said:


> I am as British as you are Bandaid and even prouder to be English but you sound just like my father and father-in-law, too stuck in the past to move forward.
> 
> peedee


No, not stuck in the past, but I dont agree that change or the sake of it is necessarily a good thing, Its too easily forgotten that our history and past are the lessons we learn for the future......

I have looked at the Euro the EU and stuff like that, and frankly I have an immediate and obvious answer to this problem in both the short and long term.

So, briely, why do we import 1,000,000 litres of milk every day, and our dairy farmers are closing up IRO 10 farms per week?....can the European farmers really rpovide milk that cheaply? not really, its our money which is paid thereto that makes it finacially viable....Spainish stuf, is. or at least until very recently been soooo much cheaper, or at least thats what I've read on here or been told by the Ex-pats, who chose to live there....why is this, is it because the Spanish are poor downtrodden people, or is their eonomy bolstered in some way?

If we leav the EU, then the cash we save from our payments could finance lots and lot of stuff which we cant afford to now, we would have to look elsewhere or our trade, but thats what New Zealand did....they have a population greatly less than the UK, and, apart from Tourism, the only thing the Kiwis have is sheep, and yet they prosper. As do Canada, Australia, and a host of other nations which arent involved with the over beaurocrated EU...

.and whilst I'm on the subject, who would argue that Fiat, VW, Audi, Porche, BMW, Fiat, Renault, Peugeot, Citroen, Mieli, Bang and Olufsen, Ariston and all the other companies in europe would suddenly stop selling stuff over in the Uk..oh and also theres of course, Danish bacon, French apples, German, French and Italian wines, Belgian beer (.and in the Uk, apart from the Cars, we could actually buy excellent British fruit, veg, meat) with the price differences via taxation, the stuff from the continent isnt going to be "soooo much dearer if we leave".

Given the one way traffic, I wonder who benefits from our being in Eurpoe at all, doesnt seem that we

So, I think we should stop bleating on about how wonderful being in the EU is, start pushing the UK, stand up for ourselves and be the country we can be......

Oh also, pleae can someone explain it to me, how being in the Euro, will do anything for the pensions which were devalued by a policy followed by Government? only a few months ago, we were enjoying 2x$ per pound and a decent euro exchange.....so, given the replies which predominently mention excnage rates for the euro, and if so many on the forum are supplementing pensions, how was Waggys comment unreasonable when he mentioned holiday cash?


----------



## Waggy

roger-the-lodger said:


> Waggy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... My theory is that there are a lot of people on here whose main concern is the cost of their jollies in Europe next year. ...
> 
> 
> 
> And perhaps a few relying on savings income to supplement their pensions who now have much more to worry about than whether or not they can have a "jolly". Those savage reductions in returns to savers caused by exactly the same Brown policy that has so weakened our currency!
> 
> And perhaps a few who have concerns about folk losing jobs and homes, even if they themselves are lucky enough to be more secure.
> 
> Funny how recessions bring out the mean-spirited! :roll: At least we know what you think of your fellow motor-homers!!!
> 
> Roger
Click to expand...

Hang on Roger, this discussion is about whether we should join the Euro.

No, not mean spirited. I have every sympathy with those having the problems you describe (including the interest on my modest savings which help to eke out my pension.) I just do not believe that any of these problems will be reduced by joining the Euro, certainly not in the present circumstances. That is my opinion, yours may differ

I am not having a go at fellow Motorhomers. We all enjoy our 'jollies'. That is why we have a Motorhome. However we should look beyond the cost and convenience of changing currency and consider the wider implications of joining.

No offence was intended. I am sorry if it came over that way.

I think I need a holiday 

Happy Christmas


----------



## parkmoy

I must admit to being surprised by the poll results so far. However reading through the posts it is apparent that the survey sample is skewed and not representative of the general population. 

The majority of posters seem more concerned by how easy it would make life when travelling abroad and that I suppose is only natural from a 
community such as this. IMO though there are more compelling economic reasons to be taken into account as one or two posters have competently demonstrated.

An interesting poll but, I submit, not likely to be matched by a nationwide referendum.


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## tombo5609

*The Euro*

Hasnt the management of the economy under Gordon been wonderful.

For decades we have strutted around Europe buying cheap motorhomes from Germany, buying cutprice wines and spirits from France and Germany and flicking cigar ash on these poor impoverished foriegners as we talked about rip off Britain as the strength of our currency sheilded us from the real world.

Now we can put some more coal on the fire, book two weeks in the Lake district as we saviour the delights of Cornish pasties, Melton Mowbry pie, a pint of good Cask ale and feel sorry for these poor folks who have to suffer the heat and exhaustion of the south and dont appreciate a walk in the woods on a crisp January day with a stop at the local on your return.

It has made me so nostalgic I feel like selling up in Turkey and moving back.


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## roger-the-lodger

Waggy said:


> ... No offence was intended. I am sorry if it came over that way. ...


No offence intended, so none taken Waggy. And I admit to going a bit off-topic. Anyway thanks for a reply very much in the spirit of the season! 

Back on-topic, my support for the UK joining the Euro comes from a long career in engineering and manufacturing industries, a background in economics and accounting and a view of the UK, and our economy especially, that relates the question to our position in global markets.

I absolutely don't want to run down the UK! I wouldn't choose anywhere else to live although when I got the chance I did forsake the south-east for the true north-west - up here we think of Manchester as being in the Midlands. :wink: But sadly the UK has several specific economic weaknesses - we are not rich in raw materials, we are small and highly populated, we are highly dependent on imports, we are relatively weak on exports, we have focused on service industries (especially financial services), our manufacturing position has been decimated, we have been unable to sustain our strengths in technology and engineering.

In respect of all of these we would be better off in the club not out of it. If the club has its own weaknesses we should have been in there helping to fix them and make it more effective rather than the lukewarm attitude we (i.e. many people and successive governments) have adopted.

Along with many other western countries we have built up a pseudo-boom economy based on services, many of which feed on themselves (just take a look at what has gone on in investment banks and hedge funds) and reliant on over-extension of credit. It was never sustainable. I agree that the eurozone has gone down a similar road, but to a lesser extent - the closest economy to us in policy terms has been the USA, but they have enormous advantages of scale, raw material wealth and a formidable technology lead. The point is that our pseudo-tiger economy fooled many, including those in power into thinking we didn't need to be in a larger club.

Gordon seems still to think like that in spite of everything - hence his "save the world" Freudian slip. This isn't patriotism, it's madness, and so the exact opposite of patriotism. It's not malicious - the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

But this is why the pound will soon sink below the euro (at many retail outlets, after commission, it already has) - the markets will judge us and will be as merciless as markets always are. This is also why Brown's focus on base rate reductions is a terrible mistake. Low or negative rates of return may encourage consumption but much of that will boost imports, and by the same token they discourage investment. The VAT reduction is simply crass.

I have seen the damage done to companies by exchange rate movements at first hand. Devaluation can work in other circumstances but it won't in our situation. Interest rate reduction for fiscal stimulus will work in other circumstances but it won't in our situation. The one thing that might help is increased infrastructure investment, but how much of that can we afford?

Take Swift Group: the devaluation of sterling should help their rather limited initiative to export product. But it will be ages before that is a significant proportion of their output, if it ever is. But consider the proportion of product value (at cost) represented by imported materials - Fiat chassis-cabs, Fiat engines and transmissions, Truma heaters, probably Thetford fridges (sound British made but I don't think so), even Blaupunkt radios and satnavs (are there any British satnavs and if so what market share do they have?). All of that extra expense now when bought in Euros.

The counter-argument might start with the weaknesses of the mediterranean Eurozone economies, and if you want to make the case, even some more northerly ones! So let's hear it - bring it on. There's not been a proper national debate about this, to the shame of modern governments - all part of our wallowing in our own complacency I think. At least there's a debate going on here - so OP, take a bow!

Well Waggy, at least you've got me going, more or less on-topic! :wink: May I reciprocate you by wishing you and your family a very Happy Christmas too. 

Oh, and sorry for so long a post. :roll:

Roger


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## 108370

slightly aside again!

we were talking this am in the office regarding imports and exports.

We are sloley an importing company supplying OEM's with some very low tech components and ofd course the fact we are having to increase our prices in relation to the the €/£ exchange rate.

The question we were asking ourselves is , exactly what do we export and in what quantities.

If we exclude financial services and some cars , both of which have taken a real battering , what else is there?

Can anyone shed some light ?


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## roger-the-lodger

bandaid said:


> ...If we leav the EU ... we would have to look elsewhere or our trade, but thats what New Zealand did....they have a population greatly less than the UK, and, apart from Tourism, the only thing the Kiwis have is sheep, and yet they prosper.


Hmmm! Yes NZ does have a population greatly less than the UK. Here the population is not only larger but has a vastly greater density. So the NZ model of thriving on agriculture and tourism (including a very well-developed outdoor activity industry deeply embedded in the popular culture) can't be applied to the UK. Put another way if we had a population that small, we could have a simply great time farming, running campsites, kayaking, tramping (hiking), bungee-jumping and playing rugby. There'd be no need to worry about full employment, infrastructure development, railway modernisation, road building, road pricing, congestion charging, third runways, climate change targets, nuclear power programmes, renewable energy programmes, social problems ... oh, I could go on. I nearly added the NHS but I was in NZ recently and their health service problems are very similar to ours; I might take social problems off that list too!

More like Britain in the 50s in fact! To quote the song - "Oh, wouldn't that be luvverly?" :wink:

Australia's interesting but it is different again in that it is much more difficult for Australia to help forge and/or join an economic alliance than it is for the UK to join the EU. You talk of history - we have a long cultural and political involvement with mainland Europe (yes I absolutely include the wars) - Australia is quite culturally isolated from its neighbours, and this certainly bothers the Aussies. It's worth going there to experience first hand the current spectrum of attitudes to increased Asian immigration. It's also worth studying the Australian attitude to APEC (Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation). None of that would change my view of either the Euro question or our EU membership.

I've already posted my views and said that there are valid counter arguments on the currency issue - my view about that comes from balancing the arguments. But I think that it would be disastrous for Britain to leave the EU, especially when we face an increasingly dangerous world.

Roger


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## peedee

An excellent couple of posts Roger.

Bandaid, I'm afraid my experience doesn't extend to that of Rogers and I have never placed much faith in statistics unless I knew how, and from where, they were derived! With statements like


> made up by the Germano-french in an attempt to take over the continent, as they failed, by other means, to do so in the past....


 it is difficult not to think you are stuck in the past. It reminded me so much of the views of many who came through the war and are absolutely dead against the EU and no amount of reasoning with them will persuade them otherwise. No doubt some of this has also rubbed off on younger generations too. I have still not voted on this poll but do lean towards the viewpoint that we would be better off as a country and as individuals by fully joining the "club" but I still intend to keep an open mind.

peedee


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## ramos

If you look at this vote 3909 people have visited this topic and only 210 have voted. :? 
What do we export and in what quantities?
I think the answer to that is we don't Manufacture, not alot is home grown is it?
We Import everything we use, wear, or eat.
Maybe that is the answer to all this to start all over again and Manufacture-Manufacture-Manufacture.
I think the only trade we did was in Finance and Investment which turns out we had borowed so they were playing with ficticious figures 8O


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## roger-the-lodger

ramos said:


> ...Maybe that is the answer to all this to start all over again and Manufacture-Manufacture-Manufacture...


Well said, Ramos, though I must admit it's easier said than done. And we need to look hard at the reasons we lost so much of our previous capability. I'd add Engineer-Engineer-Engineer to that - little point in just manufacturing unless you control the R&D - at least little point if you want a decent-wage economy. And now we should consider software production as part of manufacturing, not just hardware.

In fact it's worth considering software and media as promising sectors - neither can be counted as a failure in the UK and the barriers to entry are not impossibly high. Education is a key factor in all of this.

To paraphrase a 60s song (shows how old I am :wink: ) - "Where have all the engineers gone... ? Or physicists, chemists, mathematicians, materials scientists ....

These are the folk who can create longer lasting wealth, not those in the banks or TV, and not celebrities. Bankers and celebrities create wealth all right - for themselves!

It's not dire - there are some good people around; we need to build on that.

Roger


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## aultymer

> To paraphrase a 60s song (shows how old I am Wink ) - "Where have all the engineers gone... ? Or physicists, chemists, mathematicians, materials scientists ....
> 
> These are the folk who can create longer lasting wealth, not those in the banks or TV, and not celebrities. Bankers and celebrities create wealth all right - for themselves!


They were sacrificed to the Dogma of the Thatcher poodles who saw the future as a nice clean one with non striking office workers moving ficticious piles of money around and not in 'dirty' engineering. 
Trouble is, if you don't make things to sell, you have no income since McD and the like can't employ all the Social Science and MBA graduates.


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## ramos

roger-the-lodger said:


> ramos said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Maybe that is the answer to all this to start all over again and Manufacture-Manufacture-Manufacture...
> 
> 
> 
> Well said, Ramos, though I must admit it's easier said than done. And we need to look hard at the reasons we lost so much of our previous capability. I'd add Engineer-Engineer-Engineer to that - little point in just manufacturing unless you control the R&D - at least little point if you want a decent-wage economy. And now we should consider software production as part of manufacturing, not just hardware.
> 
> In fact it's worth considering software and media as promising sectors - neither can be counted as a failure in the UK and the barriers to entry are not impossibly high. Education is a key factor in all of this.
> 
> To paraphrase a 60s song (shows how old I am :wink: ) - "Where have all the engineers gone... ? Or physicists, chemists, mathematicians, materials scientists ....
> 
> These are the folk who can create longer lasting wealth, not those in the banks or TV, and not celebrities. Bankers and celebrities create wealth all right - for themselves!
> 
> It's not dire - there are some good people around; we need to build on that.
> 
> Roger
Click to expand...

Well said Roger but can I add "Apprenticeship Apprenticeship Apprenticeship"
We have to train our youngsters and give them hope.
But first proper Education is needed in the 3R,s as so many leave school and they cant read, write or do maths in their head. They need the basics taught.

All they seem to concentrate on is Computers for Media which is swamped so what will the young people that cant get a job be trained to do.
You have to have a crossed section of Industry to put Apprentices in so we manufacture and become self reliant to be able to then export.


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## peedee

ramos said:


> Well said Roger but can I add "Apprenticeship Apprenticeship Apprenticeship"
> We have to train our youngsters and give them hope.
> But first proper Education is needed in the 3R,s as so many leave school and they cant read, write or do maths in their head. They need the basics taught.


and for all that to happen you need to bring back discipline in schools. Give the teachers back the power they once had to take action against the bad apples. Even those who want to learn come under peer pressure from those that don't. It didn't happen in my day.

peedee


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## ramos

peedee said:


> ramos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well said Roger but can I add "Apprenticeship Apprenticeship Apprenticeship"
> We have to train our youngsters and give them hope.
> But first proper Education is needed in the 3R,s as so many leave school and they cant read, write or do maths in their head. They need the basics taught.
> 
> 
> 
> and for all that to happen you need to bring back discipline in schools. Give the teachers back the power they once had to take action against the bad apples. Even those who want to learn come under peer pressure from those that don't. It didn't happen in my day.
> 
> peedee
Click to expand...

Now aint that the truth :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Good old fashioned Values. and RESPECT.


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## peedee

The pound fell even further today against the euro. At one point it touched 1.10 euros to one pound.

peedee


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## roger-the-lodger

ramos said:


> Well said Roger but can I add "Apprenticeship Apprenticeship Apprenticeship".....


I think you and I and Peedee and Aultymer are in danger of violent agreement here!!! 

Mind you, nothing wrong with Digital Media skills but it is most unlikely ever to employ enough people in the UK to represent a really major share of GDP. When I retired early after redundancy (resulting from the second major company merger within 3 years) I supplemented my reduced early pension by a bit of professional photography and video work. I cracked the mysteries of Photoshop and even made 2 short films though I made very little money on either of those. :roll: Paid hobbies basically. But there's a big difference between a good media production degree and most media studies degrees. And in that industry a hell of a lot of excellent people have made their way up from unpaid grip carriers to be lighting cameramen, DOPs or even directors.

I get mad at the cynical response you get when you talk like we are doing and use words like discipline, respect and so on. As if it's just boring and a bias of only the old and "over-the-hill". Well it's not; these attitudes are definitely related to the mess we're in at the moment.

Anyway, what bloody hill? 

I suppose we should get back on-topic soon, but it's nice to have a good old rant before Christmas, isn't it? :lol:

Roger


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## bognormike

yes, well, er, I was just about to say, aren't we getting just a tad off topic?? :wink: :roll:


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## Zozzer

peedee said:


> ramos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well said Roger but can I add "Apprenticeship Apprenticeship Apprenticeship"
> We have to train our youngsters and give them hope.
> But first proper Education is needed in the 3R,s as so many leave school and they cant read, write or do maths in their head. They need the basics taught.
> 
> 
> 
> and for all that to happen you need to bring back discipline in schools. Give the teachers back the power they once had to take action against the bad apples. Even those who want to learn come under peer pressure from those that don't. It didn't happen in my day.
> 
> peedee
Click to expand...

No for that to happen, the youngsters need to see they will benefit from learning. You cannot beat a child into learning. Today the teenagers are very streetwise, and it's difficult trying to encourage them when they see their parents who have had the benefit of a good education, become engineers and held senior positions suddenly be thrown on the scrap heap in their late 40's early 50's because some foreign competitor has bought the company fired all the workers and moved the production to parts of the globe.

Where has all that education got you Dad,.... the dole.

For education to work you need continuity of employement, you need the skilled engineers to nurcher and encourage the young apprentices and pass on the skills of a lifetime to the next generation and for the next genration to make advances of their own from the knowledge they gained.

Education does not start and end in the classroom.

Sadly, this country has sold it's children future to highest bidder.


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## 107088

Risking being told I'm stuck in the past, but when or if we start, manufacturing, manufacturing, engineering, engineering, apprentic....well, you know it......how do we explain to those who are doing all these, that their salaries, to be comptetitive, must be about £ 100 a month, r that the children we intend to educate, must leave school at 13 to go to work, as thats how the competition is organised?. 


Its all very well making stuff, but its got to be sold, and we, like the rest of the West, have now become overpriced.....and the reason for that is the purchase of cheap goods from the Far East....if you look at load of posts on this forum about " rip off Britain", we complain about the high price of goods, then moan we havent got a manufacturing base any more....Oh, and regarding our most major manufacturing industry...motor cars, who exactly would the blame go t for that failing.....I aint sticking in the past, I merely use tradition and history as the foundation for the future.


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## ramos

bandaid said:


> Risking being told I'm stuck in the past, but when or if we start, manufacturing, manufacturing, engineering, engineering, apprentic....well, you know it......how do we explain to those who are doing all these, that their salaries, to be comptetitive, must be about £ 100 a month, r that the children we intend to educate, must leave school at 13 to go to work, as thats how the competition is organised?.
> 
> Its all very well making stuff, but its got to be sold, and we, like the rest of the West, have now become overpriced.....and the reason for that is the purchase of cheap goods from the Far East....if you look at load of posts on this forum about " rip off Britain", we complain about the high price of goods, then moan we havent got a manufacturing base any more....Oh, and regarding our most major manufacturing industry...motor cars, who exactly would the blame go t for that failing.....I aint sticking in the past, I merely use tradition and history as the foundation for the future.


Your first sentence is what we want (need) to see changed by educating that, cheap imports, must be stopped and we start to manufacture good quality produce in house again and dont get greedy with the prices.
We need to turn the economy around, so something has got to happen.
You write

I aint sticking in the past, I merely use tradition and history as the foundation for the future
There is nothing wrong with that at all tradition and history as the foundation for the future is what we are saying should happen good old values with in the family and workplace. :lol:


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## roger-the-lodger

bandaid said:


> ...we, like the rest of the West, have now become overpriced.....and the reason for that is the purchase of cheap goods from the Far East....


We probably don't agree on some things, Bandaid, but I do agree with this point. I didn't go into any detail in supporting the manufacturing/engineering/apprecticeship arguments because I thought we were all getting a bit off-topic, but I don't think there's anyway we or anyone else can combine a high-wage economy including decent wages across the skill range with a leading position in mass-scale manufacturing. What I think we could do is invest in some lower volume niche manufacturing, often higher margin product and a software industry - it's not pie-in-the-sky - you can see examples in Scandinavia and Germany. It's certainly not the whole solution to our problems either.

It's interesting that most of the really big movements in positive growth of economies, especially manufacturing based ones, a have been supported by a low-wage labour force, often approaching slave labour. True of Britain's industrial revolution; true even of post-war Germany (guest workers from Turkey etc).

I certainly agree too that we should learn from history and we often seem to be very bad at that. :?

Roger


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## 104477

Just been reading through, again, and wondering if I should have added a post script to my original post........

(Lights blue touchpaper and flees country :lol: )

Rob


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## jonegood

We were in Germany and France for about 6 weeks this year and allmost everybody I spoke to complained about the price of goods and most blamed the Euro.

Mind you they think Brits are rich because we can afford to go to britain, I bet they re sorry now!


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## jonegood

How do you vote? 

don t have an 8 year old available to explain it to me


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