# Rejecting a Motorhome



## Bovisand (Jan 16, 2008)

Just wondered if any members could offer any advice on 'rejecting' a motorhome after 16 mths of more or less continuous problems with a leaky fuel system.
Or perhaps just what course of action I should take, as poss bit late for rejecting.

Part of problem in later part of this post
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-114072-.html

In a nutshell:
We bought a new Autotrail Savannah from Cranhams in Essex in June 2011
On our first long trip to Europe in Sept when the MH was only a few months old the fuel filter seal failed in Italy. Recovered to Fiat dealer and repaired.

Approx 4 weeks later in UK on our way home the Fuel Filter failed again, more fuel dumped everywhere. New replacement filter unit fitted by local Fiat dealer.

Following year no problems on short journeys around UK but on our next long trip (last month) the fuel filter failed again whilst in Greece. Recovered to dealer, repair done. 
Carried on with trip and filter failed again after approx 80k. Recovered to dealer where a bypass was fitted to around filter unit until a new unit could be ordered from Athens. This took over 2 weeks to sort out and an awful lot of wasted trips to dealers who were supposed to have ordered the unit but hadn't.

Eventually had new filter unit fitted by Fiat Korinthos (Greece) when a new problem arose: the engine Fuel Injection warning light would come on and then the engine would just stop dead. Very dodgy on narrow twisy Greek roads. Back to Fiat Korinthos who spent a full day trying to find the problem, which turned out to be a kink in a rubber fuel line. This was replaced and we were on our way again.

Few days later strong diesel vapors coming from engine and small amounts of diesel dripping from underneath. Check new fuel filter, no obvious leaks so assume its residue from previous leaks and just needs a good clean.

Smell and vapors just get worse. Speak to Fiat Cust Care who arrange for a dealer in Bologna to have a look as soon as we arrive back in Italy.
Call at FIAT Motorhome dealer in Bologna who checks it and says can't find any leaks, gives it a cursory clean and sends us on our way.
As we continue our journey home the situation just gets worse: awful fumes, diesel covering everything under the motorhome, but no obvious leaks.
Keep Fiat Cust Care and Fiat Assist informed.
Driving it and even worse sleeping in it is awful beyond words but just want to get the messy thing home now.

Arrived home last Thur (18th). Came via Cranhams who we purchased it from for some unrelated hab warranty repairs. Mentioned the problem to them and was told to take it up with Aoutotrail.
Took it to my local Fiat dealer as soon as we got home who says he has never seen such a mess - everything is covered and dripping in diesel and the inside just reeks of the stuff as it has permeated through to the habitation areas.
But guess what, they cant find any obvious leaks.
More investigation to be carried out tomorrow (Mon) after they have given it a jet wash first so they can work on it without getting covered in the stuff.

I realise my contract of sale is with Cranhams but would be so much easier if Autotrail would take up the case. Will ring them tomorrow.
Any advice much appreciated.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I would contact your local Trading Standards and see if they can advise, Alan.


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## ardgour (Mar 22, 2008)

Certainly a trading standards issue. I have always found that phoning them on the consumerdirect number gets the ball rolling and points you in the right direction. This one might be complicated because of the length of time so you need expert help.
We have experience of rejecting a MH but it was after only 6 weeks so was a lot more straightforward
Chris


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

I think if you had got your dealer to assist they would only have done the same as you and passed it to a Fiat garage.
I seem to recollect that a rejection can only be within the first 6 months.I would not ask personal questions in public, but is the vehicle on an credit agreement.If so pass the buck onto them.
Fiat seem,according to your comments, to have done as much as they can so far, it is now up to the garage you are at now to see what the fault is and go from there.
Is that garage a Fiat commercial one.
we are all waiting to hear what the garage find. lets just hope it is sloppy workmanship and not a major problem.

cabby


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Serious health risk from the vapour should get the ball rolling with trading standards, carcinogenic fumes, shocking situation.

Cranhams seem to get rubbish reports on here, shame you trusted them initially.

Good luck.

Paul.


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## Corkheader (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi Bovisand -

I rejected within 6 months. You can reject after 6 months but the onus is on you to evidence that the goods were faulty IE an independent engineers report. Within 6 months of the sale the onus is on the garage.

I am a member of the CC and had some very good advice via the clubs legal helpline. If your not a member have you checked your insurance policies for legal aid?

John


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

coppo said:


> , carcinogenic fumes, shocking situation.


Not from diesel... :wink:

It's a relatively benign fuel compared to that nasty toxic petrol stuff which does contain an aromatic carcinogen - Benzene.

Petrol can kill you quickly in many different ways - diesel may just give you a cough.


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Stanner said:


> coppo said:
> 
> 
> > , carcinogenic fumes, shocking situation.
> ...


I have read loads of reports that fumes from diesel is carcinogenic, maybe its just from the exhausts then, it causes both lung and bladder cancer to name just two.

If the smell is so bad as the OP says I can't believe there isn't a life threatening health risk.

Paul.


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## Philippft (Feb 16, 2008)

Stanner said:


> coppo said:
> 
> 
> > , carcinogenic fumes, shocking situation.
> ...


Not quite so! See below:

Health Factors
International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) carcinogenic classification: Group 2B, Possibly carcinogenic to humans (Marine diesel fuel) or Group 3, Not classifiable as to carcinogenicity to humans [Distillate (light) diesel fuels].

Potential symptoms: Irritation of eyes, skin, respiratory tract; dizziness, headache, nausea; chemical pneumonitis (from aspiration of liquid); dry, red skin; irritant contact dermatitis; eye redness, pain.

Health Effects: Irritation-Eyes---Mild (HE-16); Kidney damage (HE3), Potential lung damage (HE-10); Suspected carcinogen (Marine diesel fuel) (HE2)

Affected organs: Eyes, skin, kidneys

Notes:
OSHA does not have a PEL for diesel fuel, but it is designated as an OSHA Select Carcinogen.
Explosive vapor/air mixtures of diesel fuel no. 2 may be formed at temperatures above 52°C.
Some cases of kidney damage from exposure to diesel fuel have been reported.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

This may help: http://www.pacefuelcare.co.uk/Fuelcare_ULSD_GasOil_COSHH.pdf

Alan.


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## sideways (Jun 2, 2008)

i may be wrong but fail to see what you want Autotrail to do its the Fiat thats leaking fuel, nothing to do with the conversion.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

sideways said:


> i may be wrong but fail to see what you want Autotrail to do its the Fiat thats leaking fuel, nothing to do with the conversion.


That sums up what is difficult about buying a motorhome. Presumably Autotrail bought the chassis from Fiat, fitted their bits and pieces to it, including connecting to certain Fiat provided interfaces, such as the side marker lamp connection, and then sold it to a dealer as a complete package.
Has the converter got any responsibility for the 'whole' vehicle?
How is responsibility shared between the various parties when something goes wrong?

Putting all that aside there has to be an underlying fault with the OP's vehicle. Thousands of X250's are on the road without any fuel filter problems so the question has to be what is different about his?


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## airstream (Jan 7, 2009)

*????*

Hi,
Like some others what I cant understand is why the filter is a problem on some individual vehicles and not others

Reading the fitment list for the filter

http://www.partinfo.co.uk/files/ADK85502.pdf

It seems to be used on Chevrolet, Citroen,Fiat, Suzuki,Peugeot and Vauxhall and we have members on here that have fixed a leaking filter housing without bother yet for others its a nightmare

Please keep us advised as it may happen to us all one day

Good Luck Ray


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

coppo said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> > coppo said:
> ...


I used to have a job in which the emissions from brickworks were a matter of concern as we had many complaints about the smell.

The environmental officer for LBC asked me which the complainants wanted no smell or no poisonous emissions as they couldn't have both and yet still have brick production. Just 'cos something doesn't smell doesn't mean it isn't dangerous and just 'cos something smells doesn't mean it is dangerous.

As for the perils of diesel yes there are lost there but almost all hedged with "possibly cause" or "may cause".

Petrol fumes WILL kill you and petrol vapour is massively more flammable (indeed EXPLOSIVE) than diesel vapour.

IF that had been a petrol vehicle the OP would either be doing a lot more than simply complaining about the smell or more probably nothing at all and certainly not asking from beyond the grave what his chances are of rejecting a vehicle after 18 months.

Do the same exercise about the dangers of petrol and see what answers you turn up. :roll:


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Yes I agree that petrol is more dangerous, I used to run my own filling station.

I still would not want to inhale the strong smell from diesel in a confined space, it is from the petrochemical industry and contains loads of poisonous substances.

Paul.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Hedged, yes Stanner but regardless the Safety Sheet is King. I wouldn't fancy trying to persuade a Health and Safety officer that a sheet was exaggerating the risks.

I do agree with you as it happens but what the bits of paper say rule us all these days, Alan.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

coppo said:


> Yes I agree that petrol is more dangerous, I used to run my own filling station.


So did I and so my son still does.

So you will remember that the Petroleum Act only applies to Petroleum not diesel. There is nothing to stop anyone buying and storing any amount of diesel, whereas the Petroleum Act is very specific on who can buy petrol and how much they can store, in exactly what form of container.



> I still would not want to inhale the strong smell from diesel in a confined space, it is from the petrochemical industry and contains loads of poisonous substances.
> 
> Paul.


Neither would I, but at least it's only "you wouldn't like to" compared to "you won't live long if you do".

Alan yes the bits of paper matter in respect of storage and handling of diesel - what do the corresponding bit of paper in respect of petrol say?


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## Philippft (Feb 16, 2008)

I am a recently retired Health and Safety professional.

The MSDS posted on this thread clearly shows the risk of exposure to diesel is far greater than just a little cough!


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I am aware of the difference Stanner but petrol is not the topic here.

My point is that the Safety Sheet should be useful when it comes to the OP making a case in so far as the leaking diesel may be more than just an inconvenience due to the smell.

His is a diesel vehicle and the problem he has is with diesel leaking so I limited what I posted to the COSHH sheet on diesel, Alan.


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Stanner said:


> coppo said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I agree that petrol is more dangerous, I used to run my own filling station.
> ...


Stanner, forget petrol for a minute, what we discussing here is the effect of inhaling diesel fumes in a confined space.(The OP said it was unbearable when driving and at night when sleeping) You think that the risk is minimal, I and others disagree.

I am familiar with the petroleum act and have done more than enough risk assessments for my filling station concerning the adjacent bus stop, businesses and houses.

Paul.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

OK Stanner.

I'll see your petrol data sheet and up you one dynamite data sheet: http://www.industrycortex.com/datas...gelatin-nitroglycerin-dynamite-properties-tec
Alan.


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## Philippft (Feb 16, 2008)

erneboy said:


> OK Stanner.
> 
> I'll see your petrol data sheet and up you one dynamite data sheet: http://www.industrycortex.com/datas...gelatin-nitroglycerin-dynamite-properties-tec
> Alan.


Ha! Ha!
Very funny, well done you!


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## Hawcara (Jun 1, 2009)

If you had a problem you would report it to Vosa, would you do the same for a motorhome?


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Philippft said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> > OK Stanner.
> ...


I wasn't aware you could get dynawotsit powered motorhomes :wink:

What next a neutron bomb powered van?

Anyway back a little less off topic.................
OK, I accept that the diesel leak was worrying and potentially dangerous, but I didn't feel it could have been as disconcerting as a petrol leak because the OP felt able to drive a not inconsiderable distance with an ongoing problem.

I was simply trying to make the point that a similar petrol leak would have been a problem of a much greater magnitude.

PS if you really do want something to worry about this stuff is far more universal in use that either petrol, diesel or dynowotsit and almost ANY use of DHMO can prove fatal - too much or too little - both will kill you.

http://www.dhmo.org/environment.html

.....and just goes to show that anything can be deadly given enough research.


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## Sprinta (Sep 15, 2010)

Stanner said:


> Philippft said:
> 
> 
> > erneboy said:
> ...


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## Mike48 (May 1, 2005)

The base vehicle is under warranty for 3 years. If a Fiat dealer is unable to deal with it speak to the Fiat Warranty Service manager at Fiat HQ in Slough. His name is Barry Paxton.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Sprinta said:


> It's not difficult to misquote on here. Erneboy didn't post any of that.


Tee hee.

Not a problem but erneboy didn't say any of what Sprinta just quoted him as having said. Purely accidental I am sure, Alan.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

has anyone anything useful to contribute to this topic.

cabby


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

Not intended to spoil this thread but dermatitis is a problem that is not to be ignored. I have a mild form but even the smallest presence of diesel can be a big problem for some people.

Alan


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## greygit (Apr 15, 2007)

rosalan said:


> Not intended to spoil this thread but dermatitis is a problem that is not to be ignored. I have a mild form but even the smallest presence of diesel can be a big problem for some people.
> 
> Alan


Back to the thread, I would have thought this was a problem for Fiat and as such I would be jumping up and down until they fixed it! :evil:


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Hi Bovisand.

How are you getting on with the MH and the serious problems with using it.

Paul.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Agree totally that it is an unacceptable problem since there is a considerable risk of causing environmental pollution if diesel fuel dripped onto the ground.....

I broke my hip aged 37 when I got out of a car in a petrol station where a diesel spillage had been mopped over by the manager of the station - 6 minths in a wheelchair and still have problems 24 years later......

A spillage of any fuel is an actionable offence and potentially very serious, the risk of cancers is small c/w the other risks IMO, that would NOT be my primary concern but quite simply the leak has to be identified and sorted before the vehicle is used again.

Your contract is with the dealer, if they wish to take it back to Fiat that is up to them - they must chase it and sort it as the vehicle is not safe to be used in that condition, but I do not believe it can be rejected now.

Dave


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## joedenise (Jul 20, 2007)

diesel or not this thread is now 2 months old and no feed back after 1st post

joe


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## Bovisand (Jan 16, 2008)

Hello all,

Thank you for your continuing interest in this matter and apologies for not posting an update.
Much has happened since my original post:
We have sold our house (happened very quickly) and are now living in said motorhome temporarily.

The diesel problem is still sadly ongoing. A brief summary is .....
Contacted Cranhams who told me to contact Autotrail.
Contacted Autotrail who said they would pass on my email to the ‘right’ people at Fiat (I think implying someone high up) - heard nothing from Fiat.

Local Fiat dealer eventually found the further leak which was on (I think called) the High Pressure Fuel rail, which is under the black cover as you lift up the bonnet, covering the fuel injectors I believe.
Antway this was replaced and appeared to sort out the further leak (this would have been leaking out for nearly a 1000m as we drove back from Greece).
But the more pressing problem was the huge amount do diesel that was pretty much everywhere that turns into vapor and then seeps into the hab area as soon as the engine gets hot. On top of this diesel streaks appear all over the motorhome when driven as the residue slowly comes away from whatever it is covering or stuck to (see pics).

I took it for a commercial steam clean and the stuff poured out from everywhere whilst it was being cleaned - but still the problem remained and it continued to stink and seep into the hab area and also stunk if you where downwind of the engine.

Decided to write to the MD of Fiat with a full case history and a load of photos and got a very concerned phone call the very next day from the MDs office and the lady who has since taken up the case has been helpful in the extreme and asked me to allow them to check for further leaks and to clean up the engine etc and said would discuss compensation when finally resolved.

The upshot of this is that the Motorhome has been looked at twice by a specialist Fiat technician (who came down specially from Scotland) and it has been to Walton Summit (Commercial Specialist) near Chorley FOUR times to try and clean up the diesel residue and get rid of the smell and vapor.
It was only collected last on Sat 16th Dec when the radiator was changed and whilst this was off the other items with small fins and parts (Heat Exchanger, Aircon Condenser unt etc ??) were also steam cleaned.

Trying to get the dealer and indeed the Fiat technician to see the seriousness of this latent diesel that is everywhere but not at all obvious when you look under the bonnet has been extremely difficult and trying.
And compounded by the fact that it is now our home and twice we have had to stay in hotels whilst the dealer has had the vehicle.

But unless we replace a multitude of parts and clean everything microscopically we will never get rid of it all this diesel 
I have kept Cranhams informed who did eventually contact me, probably because I also contacted Trading Standards with what a believe to be a potential health hazard (having to live in what at times seemed like a fuel tank).

I have to say that after it was picked up from the dealer last week after the forth visit to the dealer (since Fiat became involved but have probably made more like 20 trips to Fiat dealers in the last 18 months with leak related issues), the usual obnoxious smell is still there but I’m please to say not as bad and the smell in the living area was reliable. But it was still there.

I don’t want to bring it back for more cleaning (its been to Walton Summit 4 times now and enough is enough). It is something we will just have to live with and hopefully with use the smell will gradually dissipate.
What we really hope and pray for more than anything is that there are no further leaks on our next long trip.

Fiat said they would be in touch in the new year to discuss compensation - I remain skeptical that we will be offered any sort of decent compensation to help redress the extensive inconvenience we have suffered over the last 18 months. We shall see ??

I hindsight I really should have taken it back to the dealer, but when its your home and the dealer is over 200 miles away its just not that simple.

And this is a brief summary.

Thanks again to all who have advised.
And we will still be heading off to some far flung destination later next year.

Stephen and Susan


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## Bovisand (Jan 16, 2008)

Further pic. Don'y know how to post multiple photos


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Thanks very much for that update - as you said an horrendous problem which is now being sorted - we all hope that the outcome will be acceptable but it is well worth making sure that you keep in touch with Fiat so that they are well aware of the continued unpleasant (if not downright dangerous) aroma.......

and of course include it in your discussion about suitable compensation.......

To post multiple photos use the "Post reply" box from the top of the thread (not the bottom one) and go through the adding attachments options that are offered, once you upload one picture you can repeat the whole process for as many times as you wish, providing the overall upload does not exceed the limit......... (can't remember the actual limit but it is on the adding attachment section).

I hope that the progress continues and eventually you will not be asphyxiated by the smell - sadly diesel lingers a lot longer than petrol and clings to surfaces much more efficiently.......   

Dave

PS From your username on here "Bovisand" did you used to live near that Plymouth area? I used to be there virtually every weekend running courses for about 5 years.......


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## Bovisand (Jan 16, 2008)

Dave,
Thanks for your comments and tips on the pics.

Spent many years diving out from Bovisand near Plymouth, used to rent one of the casemates (serious underwater photographers) and also owned for a while one of the ex officers flats just up the road (Bovisand Court).
I'm guessing you ran the BAD lad courses.

Stephen


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

I used to be the BSAC Regional Coach for the SW and ran courses in topics as diverse as boathandling to Open Water Rescue and Instructor courses through to First Class Diver training as well as helping out often with the Basic courses that they ran for amateurs to learn how to dive .....

My wife reckoned (and I would not disagree with her) is that I spent 45 weekends a year there plus about five weeks full time........

I knew the place very well and used to be very friendly with Nic and Linda Ashmore, Jim Gill as well as Alan Bax - who originally opened the Fort for diving.......

Sadly the company Plymouth Ocean Projects Ltd., did not survive I think - shame as the centre was of great interest althought there were a few disasters (like building the accommodation block and undercutting thhe cliff......)

Those were the days......

Dave


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## Bovisand (Jan 16, 2008)

Dave,
Well well !
Like you I was never away from the place and knew the same people.
I used to travel down from Wigan/Bolton probably every other weekend in summer for 15 years or so in the 70/80s.
We must have past many times !!

My diving buddy Peter Rowlands ended up building a house nearby - Andern Estate near Down Thomas and very kindly provided an overnight spot for his motorhoming pal when visiting (pics of our prev none leaking Swift).

(still can't seem to post multiple pics)

Stephen


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Many thanks for the update.

If it was me in your situation I would get rid of it, I can tolerate things going wrong(with a MH you have to get used to it) but I could not tolerate something which causes serious health risks coupled with the fact that you are living in it too..

Best of luck.

Paul.


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