# Solicitor needed or can I go it alone?



## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Some may remember the saga with our self build bungalow and the water main running right underneath it. All has been, physically, sorted and the build has re started.

I am, however, furious at the amount Anglian Water have charged to do the work. They have had to divert the water main around the perimeter of our plot. I think it was about 56 m of new pipe needed, together with the trenches and valves etc. The total cost was over £17K!
I did enquire if a contractor could do the work and they do run a Lloyds List of "approved" contractors. Those on the list can supply and do most of the work, leaving AW to just connect the old pipe to newly laid pipe with valves and to flush and test afterwards. With great difficulty I found just one contractor prepared to quote and his body language said it all, when he came, that he was wasting his time. 

After he quoted around £7K for doing most of the work, I asked AW to quote for the connection and flush/test. They bumped up that cost so that the total of the contractor's quote and their new quote came to more than their original quote!

I have written to complain and they got the engineer, with whom we had a good relationship, to phone us and plead their case. I asked him to reply in writing which he has done. They absolutely refuse to itemise the bill more than sweeping "Admin Costs" "Labour Costs" etc. They just keep repeating that those are the charges that apply to the job.

My next step, now that I have complained, is to take it to Ofwat the ombudsman, Do I need legal help to do this or is it a user friendly process does anyone know?


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Hi Pat. I would assume (guess) the Ofwat system should be user friendly. At least initially. Lawyers costs are often so huge as to make any gains pointless.

Ray.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Pat


Before even taking it to the Ombudsman I would first get a Quantity Surveyor with knowledge of pipework to assess the overall cost of the work.


The QS report could be useful in two ways; firstly, to substantiate your complaint against the water company.; secondly, as evidence before the Ombudsman.


You do not specifically say whether AW have formally rejected your complaint in writing. This is normally a requirement before any Ombudsman scheme will entertain a referral.


I think a Solicitor would give the same advice, so hold off appointing one until you have taken those steps.


Geoff


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

The problem you are up against is that it’s their bat, their ball, their playground, and their rules. 

I would make contact with Ofwat and just check it’s something they would become involved with. They MAY turn round and say that it’s a commercial operation and they can charge whatever they want.

Whilst working for the highway authority I had a battle with the electricity supplier as I wanted a new feed to an illuminated road sign (elderly pedestrians sign and they must be lit!) The nearest supply was less than 2m at a lamp column. They charged me (or rather the Council) £7K The job took three and a bit hours start to finish. It appears they have a total monopoly and can literally pluck a number out of the air.

I wish you the best of luck but I fear you have a battle on your hands. Might be worth writing to your local MP with full details. Don’t waffle just include facts, best laid out as bullet points as it’s easier to read/understand in that format. Nothing to lose but everything to gain.

Keep us posted.

Andy


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Mrplodd said:


> The problem you are up against is that it's their bat, their ball, their playground, and their rules.
> 
> I would make contact with Ofwat and just check it's something they would become involved with.* They MAY turn round and say that it's a commercial operation and they can charge whatever they want.
> *
> ...


A 'commecial operation' with a monopoly over certain activities. That is why Ombudsman systems were set-up to ensure their monopoly was not used to the detriment of the public/consumer.


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## GMLS (Dec 2, 2010)

nicholsong said:


> A 'commecial operation' with a monopoly over certain activities. That is why Ombudsman systems were set-up to ensure their monopoly was not used to the detriment of the public/consumer.


Totally agree. Get the Ombudsman involved and you might even get the local paper interested if a quiet week for news


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Thanks guys. I will get on to it.


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## AAB (Mar 6, 2012)

I agree with Nicholsong but, as he says, you will have to have exhausted the water company's complaints procedure before you can approach Ofwat. (or CCW)

You may find this helpful https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/c...-supply/complaining-about-your-water-company/


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Thanks, the CCW are for domestic complaints. As our complaint is for our development then it is Ofwat that should deal with it.

I think that, as I have only had a response from the engineer in charge of the project, that I should find out what/who is the next level up and ask for their response. 

Someone pointed out to us that if you went to have work done by a garage they would itemise each and every item and set out the hourly charges etc. AW just give a lump sum for "materials", a lump sum for "adminisitration" etc. I have asked them to break these down to something that we can compare to the contractor's quotation but they just say they do not do that


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

patp said:


> Thanks, the CCW are for domestic complaints. As our complaint is for our development then it is Ofwat that should deal with it.
> 
> *I think that, as I have only had a response from the engineer in charge of the project, that I should find out what/who is the next level up and ask for their response. *
> 
> Someone pointed out to us that if you went to have work done by a garage they would itemise each and every item and set out the hourly charges etc. AW just give a lump sum for "materials", a lump sum for "adminisitration" etc. I have asked them to break these down to something that we can compare to the contractor's quotation but they just say they do not do that


Have you actualy written a 'Letter of Complaint' and had a complaint number asigned and the complaints procedure described to you? If so, have you followed the complaints procedure?

You must have completed all of that and received a rejection of your complaint before referring it to the Ombudsman process.

If you have not followed the Complaintrs procedure it may not have reached the Complaints Officer, and is being dealt with by a line manager who may or may not be familiar with what they have to follow.

I was a Complaints Officer, albeit in Financial Services.

Geoff


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Thanks Geoff. I have written a letter headed "Complaint" to the Development Services department. It is they who raised the quotation and then the final invoice. The response I received was from the design engineer in that department. There is a woman in the "financial side" of that department but we fell out at the start of the whole process and she has not communicated with me since. I do not know if she is senior to, or junior to the design engineer. 
I was just about to find the whereabouts of the next level up from them as it is obvious that they would defend their own estimating and costing.

I deduced that he was not trained in complaints handling when he offered to email his response to my official letter of complaint.

I will try to find out who/what the next stage is from their website. If all else fails I will tell them that I am not satisfied and ask them where to go from here. The design engineer is a really nice chap and has been nothing but helpful all the way through. It might be why he has been asked to do their dirty work. I might be wrong and it could be that he has responsibility for estimating and costing.

Pat


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

patp said:


> Thanks Geoff. I have written a letter headed "Complaint" to the Development Services department. It is they who raised the quotation and then the final invoice. The response I received was from the design engineer in that department. There is a woman in the "financial side" of that department but we fell out at the start of the whole process and she has not communicated with me since. I do not know if she is senior to, or junior to the design engineer.
> I was just about to find the whereabouts of the next level up from them as it is obvious that they would defend their own estimating and costing.
> 
> I deduced that he was not trained in complaints handling when he offered to email his response to my official letter of complaint.
> ...


I think the next move is to write a letter addressed to the 'Compliance Officer' with a copy to the Company Secretary' stating that you have not had an acknowledgement of your Complaint, nor a Complaint Ref. No. Enclose a copy of the letter headed 'Complaint'. Maybe the switchboard can give you the name of the Compliance Officer, to whom to address the letter.

AW are slowly building a case against themselves.

Pat keep a chronological record of all contacts and correspondence so far and keep it up-to-date. It will all be ammunition for the future.

I told you earlier that I was a Complaints Officer, this was combined with my job as a Compliance Officer. Both of which I enforced stricly both on our staff and the Regulators, who lost a few times. I do not take prisoners.

Geoff


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Before I could draught such a letter I had a call, after office hours, from the Programme Manager at Anglian Water Development Services. A very nice man, as was his underling, who tried to explain that all procedures in the costing of our project were followed.

He told me that their contractor, over a five year period, is Kier. They have been through a rigorous process to gain this contract that gives them the work on all of AW's territory. He repeated all the same old stuff about how rigorous they are to get the best prices out of their contractors. He had, however, no answer, as to why digging a trench and laying some pipe would cost such a huge amount of money. He tried to knock down the small contractors quote by bigging up Kier's "essential" side of the contract. Interestingly he, finally, produced actual prices for some of the work. These figures, he reminded me, were "commercially sensitive" so could not be shared with me when I asked, at the outset, for them to be shown on the quotation. We went round in circles for a while and discussed the lack of competition that Kier have. He assured me that the Lloyds Register that contains all the certified contractors, was designed to prevent any idea that the tendering process was fixed in any way. When I told him that all but one of the contractors on that list either did not respond to emails and phone calls or told me that they did not cover our area. Now that smells to me! Do people like Kier get the contract with a water authority and then agree with other contractors not to tender for jobs in their areas? It certainly looks like it from our perspective!

As I tried to wind up the call he looked into some details on the computer and "noticed" that we had been charged £327 too much VAT, If he thought that was going to sweeten us up then he is sorely mistaken. I pointed out to him that as self builders we do not even pay VAT!


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

It sounds to me like AW are getting a bit "nervy" over your persistence !!!

Such actions on their part would encourage me to press on. As has been said before you just go through their published complaints procedure. You can ONLY go to the Ombudsman once you have received their "Final answer" to your complaint. ALL of that should be detailed in the complaints documentation they _*should *_ have sent you by now.

Keep going, there is a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

Keep us posted eh?

Andy


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I agree with Andy's view.


As I said before AW are slowly building a case ahainst themselves.


Geoff


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

If you google Anglian Water and Ombudsman you might find and interesting case that they lost a few years ago.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Here it is.

https://www.ofwat.gov.uk/publicatio...ges-for-a-series-of-water-mains-requisitions/

What makes me mad is the bit at the end that says something about AW being allowed to pass the costs on in their water bills! Have I read that right?


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

patp said:


> Here it is.
> 
> https://www.ofwat.gov.uk/publicatio...ges-for-a-series-of-water-mains-requisitions/
> 
> What makes me mad is the bit at the end that says something about AW being allowed to pass the costs on in their water bills! Have I read that right?


I like the part about "sector taking on the responsibility to ensure that their transactions are open, honest, fair and transparent"

That is a phrase worth quoting back to either them, or more likely, Ofwat when you contact them..... :nerd:


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## AAB (Mar 6, 2012)

> Thanks, the CCW are for domestic complaints. As our complaint is for our *development* then it is Ofwat that should deal with it.
> 
> Sorry, had not appreciated that. The complaints procedure on the AW website is pretty opaque and seems to invite online form filling or telephone call. You could simply ask them what the complaints procedure is and then follow it or ask them to invoke the complaints procedure based on your letter of complaint, or just follow Geoff's advice!


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Update -

After emailing and asking for a complaint number and getting a reply that they would contact me I had to chase them yet again for it. This resulted in a letter from the Manager of the Development Services just saying the same things as before. Interestingly he did not put in writing the details that he gave me over the phone. It all, apparently, comes down to Kier (their contractor) and their table of charging which is tendered and agreed every five years. We discussed by phone how "smelly" this looked to us customers when access to other "approved" contractors is so difficult to get.

I had to phone again to insist upon being given a complaint number and this has just arrived by email.

Now that I have it I thought I would go back to the original solicitor that we consulted. It was she who advised us to push for a breakdown of costs from AW. They have persistently failed to satisfy us on this breakdown by just quoting that it is Kier who make these charges. I think, therefore, that as long as she doesn't charge too much it might be worth asking her to cast her eye over all the questions and replies and see what she thinks about the case that we might have. I assume that the ombudsman is user friendly for the general public and so I may be able to take it there on my own. I notice from the link I shared above, however, that a solicitor was used by several building contractors to fight their case with the ombudsman.


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