# major engine failure



## ardgour

set off for a nice day out this morning, got half a mile down the road when there was a sudden loss of power, then a loud banging coming from the engine. As we were so close to home (and on a major road) we turned around slowly and limped back home. Just as we got back there was a smell of burning oil and noticed oil pouring out from under the van.
The vehicle is less than 2 years old and has covered only 6000 miles. It is a fiat ducato 2.3 euro V engine. From the symptoms it sounds pretty terminal - has anyone else had a problem like this with this engine?

Chris


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## Charisma

Thank goodness for warranties.


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## Penquin

Call out experts and do not try to start it again until it has been checked and probably properly dismantled.....

from the sound of what you have described something has failed somewhere...., it could be as simple a thing as an oil seal, but it could be considerably worse, so DO NOT ATTEMPT TO START THE ENGINE, LET A BREAKDOWN SERVICE TAKE IT TO A SUITABLE AGENT TO DEAL WITH.

The last thing you want is someone saying that any warranty you have (and frankly an engine should last more than 2 years/6,000 miles - so that would NOT count as reasonable wear and tear in anyone's language) has been invalidated as you have run it KNOWING there was a fault....

Put something underneath to catch any oil as once it gets on concrete or stones it is virtually permanent, collect it if you can as evidence of how much it is losing and see if you can identify where it is coming from.....

It could be a stone has hit the sump and cracked it, or a major component failure, you do not know, so leave it and let others deal with it.

PLEASE let us know what transpires......

I am very sorry if this sounds so gloomy........

Dave


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## ardgour

Charisma said:


> Thank goodness for warranties.


and safeguard insurance - they sent AA man to confirm our diagnosis that it could not be driven and he has arranged for recovery truck tomorrow to take it to FIAT dealer. They have already confirmed it is under warranty. Good news is that although it had lost oil there was still just enough in it.
Our initial feeling is that a cylinder has gone - question is will they try to repair or, given that it has only done 6000 miles, a new engine. Should find out next week

Chris


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## pomme1

Chris,

If it were a 'cylinder problem' by which I am assuming that the AA mean perhaps a holed or cracked piston or maybe a dropped valve, then this would not explain the oil pouring out underneath.

If there had been a catastrophic failure, such as a broken con-rod which had cracked the block or holed the sump, thus leading to the oil leak, you most certainly would not have been able to drive home.

To me, it sounds like a major turbo failure, but it will be interesting to hear the final outcome. Thank goodness it's under warranty.

Roger


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## emmbeedee

I had that experience once, very loud banging coming from the engine but still able to run. In fact, at tickover, the engine sounded quite normal. What was the problem? Just a broken crankshaft! :? 
You may wonder how on earth the engine could still run with a broken crank, but it had broken on the front web at an angle of about 45 degrees, so that as the rear part of the crank, (driven by the con-rods), rotated, it pushed the front part around. Revving the engine caused the crack to open up with the resultant banging. No loss of oil in my case though.
This was on my MG Midget which I had tuned extensively (compression ratio over 11 to 1) so not just down to the engine design (BMC "A" series). On later versions of the "A" series broken cranks became such a problem that BMC had to bite the bullet & increase the main bearing diameter to 2", which it should have been in the first place.
As someone said above, thank goodness you have a warranty. In my case I had to buy a new crank & re-build the engine myself.


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## mikebeaches

Gosh, that does sound serious. Glad the van is under warranty and you were so close to home.

Hope you can get it repaired and all sorted out without too much delay. You didn't mention if you had any imminent travel plans that have been messed up?

I always thought modern vehicles were much more reliable these days...

Trust it's not long before you are back on the road. Good luck!

Mike


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## ardgour

A quick update for everyone. The AA have been magnificent, the recovery vehicle arrived as promised on Saturday morning but the alleyway leading to our house, and the tight turn into it, was too narrow so the patrol van was called to tow our van out to a point where it could be loaded up. All done very efficiently and van delivered to the fiat dealer - just have to wait for their verdict.
The oil leak has stopped, it seems that oil was being forced out from somewhere when it was under pressure - the mystery deepens

Chris


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## nicholsong

Chris

Thanks for update.

I just wonder if the prblem started with ovrfill of oil - is that a possibility?


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## ardgour

nicholsong said:


> Chris
> 
> Thanks for update.
> 
> I just wonder if the prblem started with ovrfill of oil - is that a possibility?


not unless the fairies have been putting oil in the van when we weren't looking  
Oil level was fine last time checked, none added since.
The fiat garage rang this morning to say 'it is a 62 plate therefore under warranty as far as we are concerned, we will let you know what we find'
Chris


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## listerdiesel

We blew our Vauxhall Movano 2.8 turbo engine in Spain, the timing belt had come off the week before and we were taken to an Opel dealer in Faro who changed the belt.

What they didn't do was check the compressions as required and a week later a valve head came adrift and chopped up a piston which then pushed out through the side of the block.

Despite our telling the dealership in the UK that it was not driveable, the recovery guy insisted on starting it up with even more damage being done.

It was recovered to a dealer, then drained of all fluids and pressure washed underneath so we could be towed onto the ferry at Santander.

We were met at Plymouth by the AA who had a courtesy car and recovery truck, they took the truck and our trailer and we drove straight home.

It had a complete new engine under warranty, that was in 2000.

Peter


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## ardgour

The garage have just got back to me to say yes there is something very wrong inside the engine  I think we had already worked that one out for ourselves. FIAT have told them to strip it down to find out what has happened but they needed our permission in case it turns out not to be covered by warranty - difficult to see how they can wriggle out of a warranty repair given the age and mileage.
The oil spilling out was caused by compression going down into the sump - so looks like a cylinder gone for some reason. Of course it has also written off the cat, turbo and heaven knows what else is full of oil. Messy job for someone
Chris


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## Penquin

Thanks for the update, I won't press "Like" as that would give totally the wrong meaning......

the thing about warranties is that there have been reports of them trying to wriggle out due to oil level or other peripheral things which are virtually impossible to prove afterwards.......

The process of stripping etc will take time, if possible ask the garage to take pictures as they do it so that there is a full record of the process to verify your points..... but yes the bill will not be cheap for either the parts or the labour......

I would not take a guess what the reason will be, others may wish to do so but my mechanical knowledge is totally inadequate for such a thing.... and it wouldn't help either....

Best wishes,

Dave


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## ardgour

The latest installment.....
2 days have gone by since the garage, North East van and truck at York, phoned to say FIAT had told them to strip the engine so phoned to ask what is happening - the answer? - nothing!
They say they don't have a suitable bay available to do this till next Tuesday, when we pointed out that we had it booked in for last Tuesday with this in mind they just ignored us and said they are now working for FIAT not us so (in not so many words) hard luck we will do it when we feel like it, you are not a priority.
Of course our contract is with the converter who sold us the van but since they don't deal with the mechanical bits I have a feeling this is going to be difficult. Will phone Vantage (the converter) in the morning but have a feeling this could end up a long drawn out affair
Chris


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## p-c

Hi
If the converter supplied the base vehicle then they are responsible. But if you supplied it for them to convert then they aren't.
Of course I doubt they can do much about the garage or Fiat.
Really sorry for the problems you have.
Regards
p-c


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## rayc

When the timing belt idlers blew apart on my leased Mondeo it took over a month before I got it back from a Ford main dealer with new head etc. This was with a major lease company breathing on them as I they had to supply a hire car for the period.
I think you should prepare yourself for the same type of time frame especially if a new engine is required. Perhaps best to get down there and remove as much personal property as you can and make a careful note of any body or internal blemishes.


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## ardgour

The saga rolls on :roll: 
contacted the company we bought the van from (it was new when we bought it, they buy in fiat vans and do the conversion) just to let them know what was happening because if things go wrong, ultimately they are the ones we have the contract with and therefore they are responsible for the 'merchantable quality and fit for purpose' bit, so they have to be happy with the way we are trying to resolve this through fiat. We did do the phone call to trading standards first to double check this point. The pvc company reaction was 'nothing to do with us - it is in the contract that we are not responsible for the mechanical bit' - perhaps they don't understand consumer law in this country, we bought the van from them as a new vehicle, they are responsible. I wonder what the attitude of other pvc companies is like in this situation? They did eventually say they would help us negotiate getting the van moved to another FIAT agent who might do the work more quickly if this one continues to drag their feet.
We also contacted FIAT customer services and found some interesting information. Apparently because the van is under 2 years old and therefore under warranty it is a warranty company that is dealing with the garage direct and nothing shows up on the FIAT system. If we are unhappy with what the warranty company proposes to do to remedy the problem then we can go back to FIAT customer services and they will negotiate with the warranty company on our behalf. Call me naive but I had assumed that the warranty on a new vehicle was dealt with by FIAT. I don't get a good feeling about all this.
Have to wait till Tuesday now to find out what happens next


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## p-c

Hi
I am really sorry that you are having these problems.
I would certainly be putting something in writing to the MH supplier about the problem and their responsibility under consumer law. Perhaps this is one of those times that paying a solicitor would be a good idea. He/she would know the correct wording rather than making an expensive error.
Regards
p-c


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## rayc

> ardgour said:
> 
> 
> 
> We also contacted FIAT customer services and found some interesting information. Apparently because the van is under 2 years old and therefore under warranty it is a warranty company that is dealing with the garage direct and nothing shows up on the FIAT system.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not understand this. When my X250 had the reversing judder is was dealt with directly by Fiat. Perhaps things work differently with a PVC but the garage did say to you "they are now working for FIAT" so I am even more confused. Vantage says "The base vehicle comes with a 2 year unlimited mileage warranty and I2 months roadside assistance" so I would contact them direct for an explanation as I do not have complete faith in Fiat Customer Services.
> http://www.vantagemotorhomes.co.uk/guarantee.php
Click to expand...


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## coppo

That's really poor from Vantage, they should be bending over backwards to help.

You can bet anything that if someone points them to this thread they will change their attitude quickly, bad publicity will cost them money.

Paul.


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## Penquin

Very sad to hear of the continued buck passing that is taking place, it may well be worth sending a letter to the original dealer, with whom you have the contract, containing an extract of the relevant consumer law and sending it by recorded delivery....

"Just in case" so that they are forewarned that they cannot duck out of their liability....

I suspect that you could also make a justifiable claim for all out of pocket expenses and the hire of a replacement vehicle while yours is sorted out - the mere suggestion that you are considering such an action may well encourage the extraction of someone's digit from the relevant orifice.....

Dave


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## ardgour

rayc said:


> ardgour said:
> 
> 
> 
> We also contacted FIAT customer services and found some interesting information. Apparently because the van is under 2 years old and therefore under warranty it is a warranty company that is dealing with the garage direct and nothing shows up on the FIAT system.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not understand this. When my X250 had the reversing judder is was dealt with directly by Fiat. Perhaps things work differently with a PVC but the garage did say to you "they are now working for FIAT" so I am even more confused. Vantage says "The base vehicle comes with a 2 year unlimited mileage warranty and I2 months roadside assistance" so I would contact them direct for an explanation as I do not have complete faith in Fiat Customer Services.
> http://www.vantagemotorhomes.co.uk./guarantee.php
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It may be that FIAT have a completely separate part that deal with all warranty bits but only communicate with their agents, not the main part of the company, and never deal with the customers - the 'juddergate' affair probably made them wary about having anything to do with customers.
> 
> yes the website states base vehicle comes with a 2 year warranty but the response was that they expect you to deal direct with fiat if something goes wrong.
> As is often the case, it is only when there is a problem that you really know how good something is. The combination of a major gas leak shortly after we got the van (faulty connection on fixed gas tank caused leak of over 10 litres of gas - luckily no-one hurt, fixed next day by manufacturer) then this major engine fault has left me feeling a lot less enthusiastic about the vehicle.
> such is life
> 
> Chris
Click to expand...


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## Penquin

Your contract is with the people that sold you the vehicle, they cannot change that level of responsibility. It is a legal requirement of the Sale of Goods Act.

No discussion from them can change that.

Dave


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## organplayer

*Organplayer*

All these converters, dealerships, uncle tom cobbley and all are so very quick to take all our monies to purchase these vans, and it seems that as soon as there are signs of problems, they run away. 
Talk about a mickey mouse cottage industry. I really do wish you all the best in getting this sorted. There but for the grace of God go all of us quite honestly.


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## ardgour

Well Tuesday came and went...... and still no progress.
We phoned the FIAT garage late afternoon and were told that they still hadn't started to investigate further because the bay was still blocked by another vehicle (is this really credible?) 
Anyway, a promise that they will get on with it today, FIAT have told them to take the head off (the compression was being pushed down into the sump so assumed they would start at that end but apparently not). Again they stated that 'there is oil everywhere'. We have told them verbally and followed up with email to service manager that we DO NOT give them permission to go ahead with any repair until we have been consulted and we want a written copy of the report given to FIAT about the fault.
Hopefully next installment by tomorrow..... watch this space (but don't hold your breath :wink: )

Chris


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## rayc

> ardgour said:
> 
> 
> 
> FIAT have told them to take the head off (the compression was being pushed down into the sump so assumed they would start at that end but apparently not).
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> It makes sense to take the head off which should only take an hour or so of an experienced guys time. If there is a hole in a piston or damage to a bore it will be clear to see from there. It will also help them see the wood from the trees if further strip down required.
Click to expand...


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## KARTMAN

emmbeedee said:


> I had that experience once, very loud banging coming from the engine but still able to run. In fact, at tickover, the engine sounded quite normal. What was the problem? Just a broken crankshaft! :?
> You may wonder how on earth the engine could still run with a broken crank, but it had broken on the front web at an angle of about 45 degrees, so that as the rear part of the crank, (driven by the con-rods), rotated, it pushed the front part around. Revving the engine caused the crack to open up with the resultant banging. No loss of oil in my case though.
> This was on my MG Midget which I had tuned extensively (compression ratio over 11 to 1) so not just down to the engine design (BMC "A" series). On later versions of the "A" series broken cranks became such a problem that BMC had to bite the bullet & increase the main bearing diameter to 2", which it should have been in the first place.
> As someone said above, thank goodness you have a warranty. In my case I had to buy a new crank & re-build the engine myself.


Did you have a centre main bearing strap fitted as this helped in preventing the 3 bearing crank from whipping which caused the crank to snap . I used to race a Mini in Special saloons with a Cooper `S` based engine putting out 100 at the wheels.

Rgds Paul


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## emmbeedee

KARTMAN said:


> Did you have a centre main bearing strap fitted as this helped in preventing the 3 bearing crank from whipping which caused the crank to snap . I used to race a Mini in Special saloons with a Cooper `S` based engine putting out 100 at the wheels.
> 
> Rgds Paul


No, but my Midget was a MK 1 with the original 948 cc engine, mostly used for rallying. Never went on a dyno but would not have produced anything like 100 BHP :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## KARTMAN

emmbeedee said:


> KARTMAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you have a centre main bearing strap fitted as this helped in preventing the 3 bearing crank from whipping which caused the crank to snap . I used to race a Mini in Special saloons with a Cooper `S` based engine putting out 100 at the wheels.
> 
> Rgds Paul
> 
> 
> 
> No, but my Midget was a MK 1 with the original 948 cc engine, mostly used for rallying. Never went on a dyno but would not have produced anything like 100 BHP :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

Definitely the rubber cranked engine  but a strap would have helped plus a full balance . Now got a Toyota Corolla 1600 twink, revs to 9 with 185 bhp , how things move on.


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## 747

I remember the pre-crossflow Ford engine with only 3 main bearings. The crankshaft never snapped but the Main bearing shells were only good for 40,000 miles if you nursed the engine and half that if you didn't. :lol: 

I rebuilt a lot of those engines .... usually on nightshift at work. :wink:


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## gaspode

> We phoned the FIAT garage late afternoon and were told that they still hadn't started to investigate further because the bay was still blocked by another vehicle (is this really credible?)


That is indeed credible, especially if it's a commercial dealer.
Most commercial repairers reserve one bay (or maybe 2 for large outfits) for strip down work. If that bay is in use by a HGV waiting for an engine rebuild it could be there for some considerable time. Same applies to a lesser extent to car repairers, although it's easier to push a disabled car off and on the bay than a goods vehicle so less of a problem.

They have to keep all their service bays available on a daily basis to keep work flowing, if they used one for your van they'd have that service bay out of action until Fiat resolved the problem, which may take weeks rather than days. That means they'd also have one technician standing around doing nothing.

No comfort to you I know but that's the way life is these days.


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## ardgour

Well we now know what is wrong - something has blown a hole in a piston, hole in a valve and a badly scored cylinder. 
The garage are suggesting to FIAT that they replace the engine, Apparently they can clean out the exhaust and change the cat to deal with all the oil.
Any theories about why this might happen on an engine that has only done 6000 miles? Standard diesel used, we were half way down a tank of fuel when it happened. Oil level etc. checked monthly and no problems, no warning lights have come on

Chris


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## gaspode

Sounds to me as if a valve head has broken, shrapnel dropped into the bore and punched a hole in the piston. The debris is probably sitting in the sump. If that's the case then probably a manufacturing fault in the valve. The garage should be able to deduce the cause from the damage.

In any event, with that kind of damage I wouldn't want to accept anything short of a new full engine.


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## greygit

gaspode said:


> Sounds to me as if a valve head has broken, shrapnel dropped into the bore and punched a hole in the piston. The debris is probably sitting in the sump. If that's the case then probably a manufacturing fault in the valve. The garage should be able to deduce the cause from the damage.
> 
> In any event, with that kind of damage I wouldn't want to accept anything short of a new full engine.


Yes and not a recon one either!


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## 747

You could always ask here. Some of the members are experienced Fiat mechanics and may have come across this before.

http://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/


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## nicholsong

gaspode said:


> Sounds to me as if a valve head has broken, shrapnel dropped into the bore and punched a hole in the piston. The debris is probably sitting in the sump. If that's the case then probably a manufacturing fault in the valve. The garage should be able to deduce the cause from the damage.
> 
> In any event, with that kind of damage I wouldn't want to accept anything short of a new full engine.


I would have expected the garage to have searched for debris to try to establish what caused the holes.

I am sure Fiat would also want to know, unless they have tld the garage to not disclose.

Geoff


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## gaspode

> I would have expected the garage to have searched for debris to try to establish what caused the holes.


I would assume that at this stage they've only removed the head, the debris will be in the sump. Having now established the extent of the damage I doubt if they'd bother to remove the sump at all unless they intend rebuilding the engine.


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## nicholsong

gaspode said:


> I would have expected the garage to have searched for debris to try to establish what caused the holes.
> 
> 
> 
> I would assume that at this stage they've only removed the head, the debris will be in the sump. Having now established the extent of the damage I doubt if they'd bother to remove the sump at all unless they intend rebuilding the engine.
Click to expand...

Well as it does not take long to remove the sump it might have been prudent to give a clue to what failed first.


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## listerdiesel

Sounds like the same as happened to our 2.8 Turbo Renault.

Peter


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## ozwhit

hi i had my engine fail on my 2.o 03 ducato . 
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-141147-.html

ended up rebuilding the engine new pistons , water pump , little ends , big ends , the list goes on, luckily was able to do most of it myself , 
hope you get sorted gary


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## Penquin

To Fiat, knowing that it is under warranty and knowing that a part has certainly failed at the top end and caused damage to the block and piston then knowing what went first is probably not that crucial....

Unless they could wriggle out by saying there was no oil then the warranty would be involved and the cost of finding out, perhaps, what has failed would be great c/w the chances of them NOT being liable.....

There was obviously oil present since it is now distributed around the vehicle in various unaccustomed places such as the exhaust, the cat and under the engine, n various pieces of concrete/tarmac and so on....

So it could well be that they would simply want a different engine fitted ASAP, without delaying and blocking the works by asking for a forensic examination which is unlikely to alter the outcome..........

If that is the case, it might be resolved quicker - assuming that they can locate a suitable engine or arrange for a complete rebuild of that one......

Dave


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## Zozzer

Penquin said:


> To Fiat, knowing that it is under warranty and knowing that a part has certainly failed at the top end and caused damage to the block and piston then knowing what went first is probably not that crucial....
> 
> Unless they could wriggle out by saying there was no oil then the warranty would be involved and the cost of finding out, perhaps, what has failed would be great c/w the chances of them NOT being liable.....
> 
> There was obviously oil present since it is now distributed around the vehicle in various unaccustomed places such as the exhaust, the cat and under the engine, n various pieces of concrete/tarmac and so on....
> 
> So it could well be that they would simply want a different engine fitted ASAP, without delaying and blocking the works by asking for a forensic examination which is unlikely to alter the outcome..........
> 
> If that is the case, it might be resolved quicker - assuming that they can locate a suitable engine or arrange for a complete rebuild of that one......
> 
> Dave


I would imagine that Fiat would want to get the engine back to the factory ASAP to evaluate if it was an isolated case or a more costly one of a series of engine failures. With it happening with low milage they would want to know if the problem lay in the design of a specific part.

During these extensive tests they would be able to establish if the resultant damage was caused by the vehicle owner, a faulty part or even down a incorrectly assembled part.


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## ardgour

FIAT have accepted that it is a failure under warranty and given the go ahead for a new engine, all parts have been ordered by the garage, won't know a timescale till next week. The injectors have been sent away to be tested in case they were damaged, everything else will be cleaned up and tested. Apart from the initial delay (probable reason explained by Gaspode) the garage and FIAT have been fairly straightforward. 
The same cannot be said of the van converter that we bought from. 
Their attitude when we initially contacted them to let them know this had happened and what we were doing was defensive bluster and trying to say it was nothing to do with them (remember we bought this as a new vehicle from them) even though the sale of goods act is very clear. We phoned again this morning to let them know that FIAT are replacing the engine and to ask if they wanted to check if the leakage of oil had affected any part of their conversion. The response - firstly you have no warranty because you didn't bring it back to us for habitation service (the habitation service was done on time by an approved workshop which was more convenient). Secondly if you bring it back to us and pay for a habitation service we will check everything and you will be charged for anything that needs fixing. 
I think our response has to be a recorded delivery letter stating what has happened, that they have been kept fully informed and that we have offered them the opportunity to reassure themselves that the vehicle is now 'fit for purpose' If it is subsequently found that something has happened to a part of the conversion as a result of this engine failure then it is their responsibility and we will pursue this under the sale of goods act.
As I have said before you only find out how good something is when things go wrong. Would I recommend this particular van converter - what do you think?

Chris


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## Mrplodd

It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that anything associated with the habitation side of the vehicle has been damaged by oil leaking under the bonnet. 

I wouldnt give it another moments thought just wait for the new engine and get back to enjoying yourself with it.

Its an interesting attitude from the convertor though. If they thought about it they could check the vehicle and then charge Fiat for any damage caused by the failure of THEIR engine !! Like I said, highly unlikely as there is basically nowhere the oil can get to that can be damaged by it is there?? (water doesnt get in when driving along and there is LOT more of that around then there was oil when your engine went pop!!)


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## nicholsong

Mrplodd said:


> It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that anything associated with the habitation side of the vehicle has been damaged by oil leaking under the bonnet.
> 
> I wouldnt give it another moments thought just wait for the new engine and get back to enjoying yourself with it.
> 
> Its an interesting attitude from the convertor though. If they thought about it they could check the vehicle and then charge Fiat for any damage caused by the failure of THEIR engine !! Like I said, highly unlikely as there is basically nowhere the oil can get to that can be damaged by it is there?? (water doesnt get in when driving along and there is LOT more of that around then there was oil when your engine went pop!!)


I agree with that, with the exception that it is possible that oil fumes had been sucked into the cab ventilation system which could cause some smells after the engine is running so could require ducting cleaning or replacement. Not strictly the habitation side but still possible colateral damage.

Geoff


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## ardgour

I spoke too soon  
a week ago the garage said that FIAt had accepted a new engine was needed and they were ordering the parts, they would let us know Wednesday (the 15th) if there were any problems. We heard nothing so yesterday afternoon phoned them again to see when we might get the van back. 
They haven't done anything 8O No parts actually ordered because FIAT want a fuel sample analysed and they haven't got around to doing it. Excuses about 'oh it's complicated', 'we haven't got the right kit', 'we haven't found anywhere to do it' and 'anyway I was off sick'.
Steam now coming out of ears

Chris


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## cabby

I would write or email Fiat and ask them why you have such a poor quality service from an accredited Fiat commercial garage. Blah, blah.

cabby


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## Stanner

cabby said:


> I would write or email Fiat and ask them why you have such a poor quality service from an accredited Fiat commercial garage. Blah, blah.
> 
> cabby


.... and point out that you will be claiming for loss of use of the vehicle at motorhome hire rates through the small claims court.

Copy Fiat, the garage and the dealer who sold it, in to that as they could ALL be liable.


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## nicholsong

Chris

Very frustrating.

As per cabby and Seanner I agree it is time to start applying a legal boot to arse - you might need some help there.

Fuel sample? I can only think that they are wondering if the tank was filled with petrol in error - you didn't, did you? Better not answer that on open forum if the answer is yes/possibly/might have etc.

Start rattling a few cages.

Geoff


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## ksblair

*Major engine failure*

I have been following this thread with an increasing level of concern. 
Forum members have provided useful advice but I think you really need proper legal advice.
I had a major issue with a new van and got nowhere with the dealer and converter.
I remembered I had taken out legal cover with my house insurance and contacted the company. They gave me detailed advice on how to deal with the matter, told me how to word letters, quote the relevant consumer laws and set timetables for action etc.
The result - I got a replacement van. The legal advice was free.
Check it out, you have nothing to lose.
Good luck!


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## ardgour

nicholsong said:


> Chris
> 
> Very frustrating.
> 
> As per cabby and Seanner I agree it is time to start applying a legal boot to arse - you might need some help there.
> 
> Fuel sample? I can only think that they are wondering if the tank was filled with petrol in error - you didn't, did you? Better not answer that on open forum if the answer is yes/possibly/might have etc.
> 
> Start rattling a few cages.
> 
> Geoff


No worries about the fuel from our point of view - we were half way down a tank of diesel, no issues with performance for the previous 150 miles. I can even remember the last refuelling, it was at the garage just down the road from us and each time OH fills up I double check that it is the diesel hose being used (call me paranoid).
I can understand that FIAT are desperately casting around for someone else to blame, but we are confident it is not us.
Chris


----------



## 96299

ardgour said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chris
> 
> Very frustrating.
> 
> As per cabby and Seanner I agree it is time to start applying a legal boot to arse - you might need some help there.
> 
> Fuel sample? I can only think that they are wondering if the tank was filled with petrol in error - you didn't, did you? Better not answer that on open forum if the answer is yes/possibly/might have etc.
> 
> Start rattling a few cages.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> 
> 
> No worries about the fuel from our point of view - we were half way down a tank of diesel, no issues with performance for the previous 150 miles. I can even remember the last refuelling, it was at the garage just down the road from us and each time OH fills up I double check that it is the diesel hose being used (call me paranoid).
> I can understand that FIAT are desperately casting around for someone else to blame, but we are confident it is not us.
> Chris
Click to expand...

'I can understand that FIAT are desperately casting around for someone else to blame, but we are confident it is not us.'

Unfortunately in my experience, this is how fiat seem to perform on a regular basis. Sorry to hear of your woes, I know from first hand how frustrating it can be. Good luck.

Steve


----------



## Stanner

If I were in your position I would seriously be thinking of "planning" a "delayed" (due to non-availability of the van) holiday of at least 3 weeks.

Get a quote for hire of an equivalent m/home and inform all the interested parties that you have no option, given the collective lack of action on their parts, but to hire a replacement vehicle for that purpose.

AND that you will of course be looking to them to cover the cost.


----------



## coppo

Best wishes for the outcome of this, I am sure it will be fine.

Really disappointed with Vantage but not surprised.

We went to one of their open days last year, Scott and his partner tried the hard sell, said we hadn't made our mind up yet, ''just pay the deposit and you can choose the van later on'', ''Er, no thanks''

Paul.


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## readyforoff

It's not unreasonable for Fiat to ask for a fuel analysis. You'll probably get your new engine but the garage are letting you down not Fiat. Unfortunately you have little leverage. If you were running 20 Ducatos and replacing them every 3 years you'd have a hire van. C'est la vie in all walks of life. Good luck with it and for Ducato owners reading it's a very rare event. I've seen melted engines under 10000 miles from all manufacturers over the years from Ford cars to artics. Very rare though considering the numbers made........


----------



## ardgour

readyforoff said:


> It's not unreasonable for Fiat to ask for a fuel analysis. You'll probably get your new engine but the garage are letting you down not Fiat. Unfortunately you have little leverage. If you were running 20 Ducatos and replacing them every 3 years you'd have a hire van. C'est la vie in all walks of life. Good luck with it and for Ducato owners reading it's a very rare event. I've seen melted engines under 10000 miles from all manufacturers over the years from Ford cars to artics. Very rare though considering the numbers made........


I agree, fuel analysis is a sensible precaution - would be reassuring for us to know the fuel left in the tank is not going to cause a problem with the new engine. Of course if there is something wrong with it that will be a whole new battle - lets not go there.
Does anyone know how long it should take to get a fuel analysis?

Chris


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## prof20

I hope nobody with a vested interest in the outcome puts/has put any petrol in the tank. Trust nobody. It has taken them quite a while to ask for a sample - would have thought it was one of the first things they would have done.

Good luck.


----------



## gaspode

Presuming that they want to check if you've put some petrol in by mistake, I doubt that will be the case. I expect that every mechanic in the place would have sniffed the fuel within minutes of finding the damage and they'd have instantly detected any petrol fumes. Ask them to supply you with half the sample they send to Fiat so you can arrange your own analysis in the event of a dispute. Also hang on to your last fuel receipt if you still have it.

It's probably just a sensible precaution but yet another thing to cause further delay. It won't change the requirement for a new engine though, whatever they discover so Fiat may as well get another engine sent to the garage anyway.


----------



## Penquin

I am sure that Trading Standards would know who could/would do a fuel analysis....

alternatively contact the garage that supplied the fuel and let them know that Fiat are asking for an analysis and could they help you by letting their supplier do the analysis for you as an independent check and let Fiat know that you are seeking independent analysis so that the results cannot suddenly be altered to suit Fiat......

Time for professional advice YES, and how, and also tile to send them a "Letter before Action" outlining the claim that you intend to pursue for delay, cancellation of holiday and trips, personal expenses, the cost of all items of the claim so far and other "related" expenses......

That claim would have a very high likelihood of success as the delay is not what a "reasonable person" would expect - which is what the court uses as the deciding criterion.

It is certainly time to rattle a few cages and all those that have dealt with it should be copied in such a letter so that all of them are aware of what will be following soon - but get the fuel sample urgently so that it cannot be contaminated "by accident" in the repairing garage.....

Hence the independent analysis.....

Dave


----------



## Tucano

Chris/ardgour,

Sorry to hear of your problems, I do hope it resolves to your complete satisfaction.

Your tale has definitely given me a view of North East Truck and Van that I shall remember when next I need a vehicle service, I shall go elsewhere now.

Good luck and many thanks,

Norman.


----------



## ardgour

The saga rattles on... more like a soap opera
We contacted FIAT customer services by phone (Monday) and were told it would take 48 hours to open a case, even though they had a record of us already contacting them on 3rd October. They also said that it was better to contact them by email and did not give us a postal address. We sent them an email, copied to North East Van and Truck and Vantage Motorhomes, stating the facts of the case and citing the Sale of Goods Act. 
The email response from Vantage beggars belief. The garage phoned us Tuesday lunchtime to let us know the fuel sample had been taken and was being sent off. No response from FIAT customer services - until today.
Phone rang today, FIAT customer services asking us to take part in a customer satisfaction survey :!: 
Just phoned North East Van and Truck and guess what .... the fuel sample has gone missing in the post. Service manager posted it himself first class on Tuesday but it has never arrived at the lab in Wales. The woman from FIAT customer services who is assigned to the case is away from her desk so now waiting for her to return the call.
Keeping a tally of all the time this is taking, phone calls etc. As hubby is employed on consultancy rates his time doesn't come cheap and they are being told that the bill is mounting
Next installment when it happens ......

Chris


----------



## nicholsong

Chris 

Hang in there and don't let the b*stards grind you down.

If no result soon then - CAB/Solicitor. 

Of course there is an Registered Address for FIAT and the letter should be addressed to the CEO, in Italy not UK, unless the warranty is issued in the name of the UK company. In the letter suggest that they may wish to refer it to their lawyers , 'as action is imminent'

Geoff


----------



## ardgour

Finally got the mythical 'Emily' from customer services to phone back  Friday afternoon. She sounded ever so helpful, said she needed to speak to a couple of people and would phone back before the end of the afternoon. By 5.30 no phone call so phoned customer services to speak to Emily. Was told that she was no longer dealing with the case, it was being assigned to someone else because they had not realised it was a motorhome (strictly speaking it is a panel van conversion but the distinction seems to be lost on them) the fact that they had been told it was purchased from Vantage Motorhomes obviously hadn't given them a clue. The new person, when they are identified, will contact us in a couple of days.
Enough is enough. Letter sent by special delivery today to Steve Zanlunghi, CEO/managing director Fiat UK and copied to Dominic Wood, customer care team leader, Fiat UK.
We will see what happens next.

Chris


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## GEMMY

Chris, I feel for you, hope I never have a similar problem, I wouldn't be as patient 8O 

tony


----------



## rosalan

Whilst I feel your pain in this thread, please do not let the problem eat into your life. At the end of the day, nobody is hurt physically but frustrations of this kind can add stress which is hard to shake off and can make people actually ill.
While the whole saga is interesting to the rest of us, for you it must hit much harder. Robbing you of the quiet confidence you initially had in the van and the manufacturers and making you question all of the things you may have done to cause the problem (fuel etc), for which you are not in any way responsible.
Please do not let the whole farce of buck-passing get under your skin. This whole problem is not yours, it is Fiats problem. The middle-men may under some circumstances have to finance part of all this but other than the deprivation of your van, you can sit back and make the odd phone call to allow plans to be made for future travels.
Like everyone else, I am keen to hear the outcome so that in the unlikely event of my having the same problem, I will have some idea of how it should resolve itself.
The very best of good wishes to you.

Alan


----------



## Penquin

I may be wrong, but SURELY the whole problem stays with the dealer that sold you the motorhome?

The SoGA is very clear on that and your contract is with them, not with FIAT, IMO the letter should be sent to the dealer stating that action will follow looking for full redress and compensation for the time loss, the stress and all incidental expenses connected with the breakdown and the delay over the restitution to a fully workable state.

Legal advice is more than overdue and can only follow the legal action route IMO. Check the details of the company that sold you the completed vehicle - that is where your contract lays exists.

The company that you bought it from should be chasing FIAT at their expense and their stress with you breathing down their neck for their failure to supply a vehicle of merchantable quality.

Dave


----------



## Kev1

Wow
I would be on the point of killing some f----r.
I certainly think contacting a specialist solicitor is called for
Get some legal advice and give them a time scale now.
Really sorry for you mate
Kev


----------



## nicholsong

Chris

I think you have to look at this difficult situation as two separate issues-

1. The repair/replacement of the engine.

2 The consequential losses of the use of the motorhome and associated expenses.

No. 1 is covered both by the SoGA, as Dave(penquin') said, and can be a claim against the Dealer. However it would seem to be accepted by Fiat that it is also covered by their warranty, although I amn ot certain they have explicitally accepted that.

No. 2 I doubt that Fiat's warranty covers these losses and may indeed specifically exclude them. If so the only recourse is against the Dealer. I do not know how seriously you value a claim for the loss of use and trouble and expense of dealing with this problem.

I agree with Dave that it is time to seek legal advice, for two reasons: firstly, Fiat may try to avoid liability and the claim under No. 1 will then be against the Dealer. Whichever you claim against, legal advice will be needed about the type of evidence required, which needs to be collected NOW; secondly, if you wish to claim for the ancillary costs in No. 2 you will need the legal advice.

If the cost of a lawyer is an issue, you could seek advice from the CAB, but they will not take action. For action, in the form initially of putting FIAT and the Dealer on notice of what you expect in law, you need to get a Solicitor to start acting now. The cost of the Solicitor should be included in your claim since it has been necessary because of the delay by the parties concerned.

Geoff


----------



## middman

Have followed this thread also, and having been through something similar 12 years ago, can only add that legal advice is crucial. The liklihood is it will all be sorted to your satisfaction in due course, but in the meantime knowing exactly where you stand legally will give you some peace of mind and let Fiat amd Vantage know you mean business. In our case our initial representations were dismissed, but when we started writing with precise legal wording their attitude changed. We obtained legal advice from our household insurers and the Caravan Club, both of whom told us which Acts we should be quoting and how exactly to state this in writing. You need to know exactly which company should be approaching with this, Fiat under their warrantly or Vantage under SoG. 

With best wishes for a positive outcome.

M


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## Stanner

Pre-very-cisely.

Your contract is only with Vantage - their contract is with whosoever supplied the base van to them.



Penquin said:


> I may be wrong, but SURELY the whole problem stays with the dealer that sold you the motorhome?
> 
> The SoGA is very clear on that and your contract is with them, not with FIAT, IMO the letter should be sent to the dealer stating that action will follow looking for full redress and compensation for the time loss, the stress and all incidental expenses connected with the breakdown and the delay over the restitution to a fully workable state.
> 
> Legal advice is more than overdue and can only follow the legal action route IMO. Check the details of the company that sold you the completed vehicle - that is where your contract lays exists.
> 
> The company that you bought it from should be chasing FIAT at their expense and their stress with you breathing down their neck for their failure to supply a vehicle of merchantable quality.
> 
> Dave


----------



## cabby

Rather than go through all the posts again, did I read that it was bought using a finance company, if so they should be doing all this, as they legally are the owners of the vehicle. If this is the case then send a copy of all paperwork to them and ask them to get on with it , but nicely.

cabby


----------



## ardgour

cabby said:


> Rather than go through all the posts again, did I read that it was bought using a finance company, if so they should be doing all this, as they legally are the owners of the vehicle. If this is the case then send a copy of all paperwork to them and ask them to get on with it , but nicely.
> 
> cabby


No, it was 'financed' by us downsizing to a smaller house.
We understand that through the SoGA our contract is with Vantage but all the way through Vantage have denied they have any responsibility and told us to deal with Fiat. If we don't get any satisfaction from the letters to Fiat HQ then we will go down the legal route against Vantage. All the way through we have deliberately referred back to them at every stage but their response beggars belief. We don't want to go into further detail at the moment in case we do have to take them to court but when this is all over .....

Chris


----------



## Mrplodd

Try emailing Watchdog!

If they get involved I suspect things may start happening swiftly, no company likes bad publicity.

Worth a try?


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## ardgour

Quick update ...
Just had the most bizarre phone call from a lady who said she was a 'customer care executive' in Italy. Fortunately, the call came through on the phone that seems to be permanently stuck on speakerphone so every word was witnessed.
Her tone was aggressive/ defensive, she was speaking so fast and non stop that hubby was struggling to get a word in edgeways. She even went down the route of 'don't take that tone with me I am 60 years old and have been doing this job for over 20 years' - he wasn't doing anything other than asking her very politely to note certain things down on the case file, remember this was all on speakerphone so both sides of the conversation could be heard.
She stated that she was phoning because she had just picked the case up but the whole tone and the way she spoke made me wonder if there was more to it. Surely 8.50am is too early for thee recorded delivery letters we sent to have had an impact at head office? - or is someone monitoring this forum?
Anyway no further forward

Chris


----------



## nicholsong

Chris

Sounds as though you should be recording calls as well as listening. If you cannot record at least make notes straight after incl. date and time - if you are not already doing so..

Geoff


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## Pudsey_Bear

Wherever possible if I have to ring and complain or get important info I use my mobile phone or try to get them to ring me back on it as I have this app I make a point of telling them the call is being recorded, I can then download the recording for evidence or just to have the info later, saves me trying to remember or write things down.


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## Kev1

Solicitor
Solicitor
Solicitor


----------



## nicholsong

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Wherever possible if I have to ring and complain or get important info I use my mobile phone or try to get them to ring me back on it as I have this app I make a point of telling them the call is being recorded, I can then download the recording for evidence or just to have the info later, saves me trying to remember or write things down.


For our Readers

One must also tell the person the reason for the recording, to be strictly legal. The reason can be just 'for compliance'(theirs of course :lol: ) or for 'for quality control' - could mean of the phone line :roll: .

For Kev

When I clicked on your app link I got the Polish version of the App advert - clever these Google marketing people!

Geoff


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## anjasola

Sorry to hear of your woes.
My advice would be to instuct a solicitor a.s.a.p.


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## Pudsey_Bear

nicholsong said:


> Kev_n_Liz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wherever possible if I have to ring and complain or get important info I use my mobile phone or try to get them to ring me back on it as I have this app I make a point of telling them the call is being recorded, I can then download the recording for evidence or just to have the info later, saves me trying to remember or write things down.
> 
> 
> 
> For our Readers
> 
> One must also tell the person the reason for the recording, to be strictly legal. The reason can be just 'for compliance'(theirs of course :lol: ) or for 'for quality control' - could mean of the phone line :roll: .
> 
> For Kev
> 
> When I clicked on your app link I got the Polish version of the App advert - clever these Google marketing people!
> 
> Geoff
Click to expand...

I do tell them, it's in my post.


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## nicholsong

Kev 

You only said that you told them it is being recorded, but not that you told them the reason 'Why', which is a legal, albeit superflouous, requirement - just shows how stupid some of the legislation is - passed by a Parliament with, in my opinion, not enough people with legal knowledge.

Geoff


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## Deadmeat

Blimey!! Just been reading through this thread. What a nightmare!

Fair play to you for sticking with it. I think I would have been shouting at someone by now... :twisted:


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## ardgour

Some progress at last.....
phone call from same lady in Italy around lunchtime to inform us that the case had been taken away from their department. We guessed that the letters sent to Fiat HQ had arrived. Sure enough got a phone call late afternoon from lady who said she was from the directorate at Fiat HQ and was ringing to thank us for our letter to the managing director. Things are now moving, fuel analysis was normal (as we expected),garage should get go ahead to start warranty repair tomorrow and we should have van back by Monday at latest.
Well that is the theory.

Chris


----------



## cabby

we wait with abated breath, plus fingers crossed for you.

cabby


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## Pudsey_Bear

nicholsong said:


> Kev
> 
> You only said that you told them it is being recorded, but not that you told them the reason 'Why', which is a legal, albeit superflouous, requirement - just shows how stupid some of the legislation is - passed by a Parliament with, in my opinion, not enough people with legal knowledge.
> 
> Geoff


I do tell them why, otherwise they might think it odd.

I didn't think I had to repeat word for word on a forum though mea culpa mea culpa


----------



## ardgour

Yet more complications ......
we asked the garage for all documentation regarding what had failed and what had been tested/ inspected on the van. Also a written assurance that all parts used are new (not reconditioned) and a 2 year guarantee on the new engine. Garage say their relationship is with Fiat so they can't give us anything. Email to lady at Fiat HQ has hopefully sorted out access to documentation but still waiting for someone to get back to us about it.
Does anyone know how we can tell whether they have used new rather than reconditioned parts?

Chris


----------



## bigaggie

*Re 2 year warentee*

Hi there
After reading your posts and being on the reciving end of fiats repairs to gearbox and then a new box at 4000 miles, you may find that the garentee is only till your new van warentee runs out,as I had lost faith in van we got rid before the van was 2 years old,


----------



## rosalan

Having followed your trials I hope that all of this can be put behind you after next week. It is fair to say that statistics alone will show that the vast majority of vehicles have long trouble free lives but the odd failure inevitably will happen. It is so very irritating when this happens and is then compounded by buck-passing and red tape. However, no garage or company could survive if engines were regularly having to be replaced.
It would be my guess that the garage will do the least possible replacing of labour intensive parts and will try to replace the complete component, which would be their cheaper option. So do not worry too much about re-conditioned parts.
Finally, if your new engine is like 99.99% of engines, it will give you a long and trouble free life. Focus on the future positively if possible and have fun again.

Alan


----------



## Spacerunner

ardgour said:


> Yet more complications ......
> we asked the garage for all documentation regarding what had failed and what had been tested/ inspected on the van. Also a written assurance that all parts used are new (not reconditioned) and a 2 year guarantee on the new engine. Garage say their relationship is with Fiat so they can't give us anything. Email to lady at Fiat HQ has hopefully sorted out access to documentation but still waiting for someone to get back to us about it.
> Does anyone know how we can tell whether they have used new rather than reconditioned parts?
> 
> Chris


You could request the packaging from the parts. :?:


----------



## ardgour

Can anyone bear to read another update or is it all getting too predictable?
As those brave souls who have followed the whole sorry saga will know we set a deadline of 31st October for getting this van back. Then we agreed to an extension till Monday 3rd November in return for full cooperation from Fiat in getting the new engine and all documentation.
It is now Tuesday 4th November - they did contact us yesterday with an 'update' the new engine is in, just transferring and connecting all the other bits. Garage wants to keep the same mechanic doing whole job (sensible idea so long as he knows what he is doing) then do an extensive road test (hope that doesn't mean they are going on holiday in it 8O ).
Latest estimate is we will have it back tomorrow and Fiat head office have confirmed by email that we will get all documentation we requested. Our essential trip up to Scotland has been moved so many times it is becoming a myth but we now have a window of just 3 days early next week to get up there and back before late December.
Crossed fingers

Chris


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## Pudsey_Bear

Nearly there mate, it'll hopefully all be a dim memory once you get up to Jockshire, and you feast your eyes on the beauty up there. although where you are aint too bad on the eye either.


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## rayc

In my experience, limited as it is, the time interval of 5- 6 weeks between the initial breakdown and receiving the vehicle back with a new engine under warranty is not excessive.
When the timing belt tensioner on my lease Mondeo broke up, necessitating a complete new head, it took well over a month for the work to be completed. That was with a major lease company putting pressure on.
Hopefully all will end well and many 10's of thousands of miles will be completed on the new engine with no problems.


----------



## nicholsong

Chris 

I would want to go on the road test.

Check out that all the battery charging, from whatever systems you have(EHU charger, solar panels etc.), has either not been disturbed or has been re-connected correctly.

Get a list of FIAT commercial garages on your route - just in case :wink: Hopefully not needed.

Geoff


----------



## ardgour

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Nearly there mate, it'll hopefully all be a dim memory once you get up to Jockshire, and you feast your eyes on the beauty up there. although where you are aint too bad on the eye either.


trouble is we are only going to Dundee! - beautiful city though it is but not really where you would go to see the scenery  
We still own a student flat up there that hopefully will sell in the very near future (anyone want to buy one?) so we can turn our attention once more to the wide open spaces
Chris


----------



## rayc

Is it back on the road with new engine?


----------



## ardgour

rayc said:


> Is it back on the road with new engine?


Funny you should ask - they put the new engine in last week, connected everything up, tested it and .... it was misfiring 8O 
2 auto electricians had a go at finding the fault and couldn't so on Friday Fiat technical told the garage to replace the ECU. Just had a call from garage, the new ECU is in and road test looks OK. They want one more road test from cold start up in the morning to make sure all is OK then we should get the van back tomorrow afternoon.
When it is safely back home and tucked up with a nice cup of cocoa I will post a final summary of the experience - from all this there are some who deserve praise, and a couple who should be named and shamed :evil:

Chris


----------



## readyforoff

Fantastic it was misfiring on reassembly because that's probably the cause of the original failure. A few thousand miles down the road and out of warranty and it may have recurred......


----------



## ardgour

*major engine failure - the final reckoning*

Well the van is finally back home with shiny new engine, injectors, ECU, catalytic converter etc. The garage showed us the photos of the damage to cylinder 4, the metal had melted at one side of the piston, there was a hole burned straight through the exhaust valve, serious scoring up the side of the cylinder and the injector nozzle had melted 8O There is a suspicion that a fault in the ECU caused it but the damage was to cylinder 4 whereas when they connected it all up again the misfire was on cylinder 1 so a bit of an anomaly. They have replaced the ECU anyway so all is now well and Fiat have agreed to a 2 year warranty on the new engine.
Now for the final reckoning - the good, the bad and the incompetent.
The AA were magnificent and deserve praise. The 2 roadside patrol guys, the recovery truck driver - all friendly, polite, helpful and professional.
The garage, North East Truck and Van in York. About 2 weeks of the delays were down to them. We were not a priority but I think this is more a symptom of modern business methods than anything else. They obviously have a contract to fix home delivery vans for Asda and Tesco and I suspect that fixing vehicles for big boys like that takes priority over us mere mortals with less clout. Frustrating for us and not fair but I can't really blame the garage, they have a business to keep afloat.
Fiat UK - their customer service department needs a good shake up, it is not fit for purpose and certainly not doing anything to help the company reputation. They are based in Italy but all calls and emails apparently go through London. They seem to follow set pathways that simply don't work for anything other than a straightforward dealership/ customer problem and some of their record keeping is less than accurate. Having said that when we did finally lose patience and write direct to head office things started to happen. The lady from head office who took over dealing with the problem was efficient and kept in touch with us. They agreed to provide us with all the documentation we have asked for, a full 2 year warranty on the new engine and agreed to pay for either a replacement van hire or hotel cost for the couple of days trip we had to make to Scotland. OK we had to kick and scream a bit but in the end they came good. This was a very rare and unusual engine failure so it was a bit of a case of unknown territory.
Finally to the people who we bought the van from and who, under the sale of goods act, were responsible for ensuring that the van they supplied was of merchantable quality and fit for purpose. In other words the only people that we actually had a contract with in law and therefore the people who should have got all this sorted. They were Vantage Motorhomes in Leeds. My thoughts about them are probably not printable and this is why. When we contacted them to let them know the engine had a major problem their attitude from the start was 'its nothing to do with us'. They referred back to their contract of sale which denies any responsibility for mechanical bits then sent us an email saying that as we hadn't taken the van back to them for its first habitation service we had no contract with them and anyway they had given us a good deal when we bought it. The first habitation service had been carried out by an approved workshop but we didn't take it to Vantage because we didn't trust their workmanship and this is why. We bought the van new in December 2012. a few weeks after we got it I went out one morning to an overwhelming smell of LPG. There was a leak from the fixed gas tank and about 10 litres of LPG had escaped. Fortunately the van was parked outdoors in a large open space on our premises so nothing exploded. We phoned Vantage, closed the isolation valve on the tank and an engineer came out the next day and replaced a connector that was leaking. We were promised that they would fit one of the new electronic isolation switches to our gas supply free of charge when they had finished testing them but this promise seemed to disappear very quickly. We then found the water tank gauge wasn't working properly, Vantage said they had fixed it but it still doesn't work. When we mentioned all the rattles in the van the workshop manager just shrugged and said there was nothing you could do about it. By this time we were not impressed with their workmanship or after sales care hence the decision to have the habitation service carried out by someone we trusted. The engine failure had nothing to do with the habitation side anyway so it was all just an excuse.
So final verdict - this was an unfortunate but very rare mechanical failure. Fortunately it happened when we were travelling at low speed on a fairly quiet road close to home so it didn't cause a major accident and no-one was injured. It has been just over 8 weeks of hassle and frustration for us but at the end of it all we don't hold any grudges against the garage or Fiat UK who did in the end sort it all out. We won't be recommending Vantage Motorhomes to anyone.
Many thanks to everyone on here who has been supportive and offered suggestions, it helps to know there are friends out there

Chris


----------



## 96299

Hi

Glad it all came good for you in the end, I know only too well about fiat customer 'no-care', I ran into that a few years ago with juddergate and vowed never to buy another fiat product ever again after this one has bit the bullet.

Now get out and enjoy your van like your suppose to  

steve


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## wakk44

Thanks for the update Chris,a very measured and balanced report.It's a shame that you had to kick and scream to get things done but I find that with most things lately.

Fiat came up trumps in the end after you twisted their arm and Vantage come out of it all with no credit whatsoever.It certainly is a rare occurrence,I haven't heard of another catastrophic engine failure with a Ducato of this year.


----------



## Mike48

I thought Vantage had a good reputation but clearly don't function when things go wrong - ie the gas. 

As for the mechanical (non habitation) aspects of a warranty it was always my understanding that responsibility lies with the vehicle manufacturer rather than the converter That is why all problems relating to the mechanicals of the vehicle are covered by Fiat rather than Vantage in this case. If for example an alternator fails who do you take the vehicle to for diagnosis and repair? In this case it has to be Fiat.

Now it seems in this case that Vantage could have been more helpful but in reality it was always going to be Fiat that resolved the problem via the vehicle's warranty. I wouldn't be so dismissive of Vantage as I can't see what they could have done when the warranty is with Fiat even though the Sales of Goods Act might point responsibility somewhere else.

Glad it's sorted and thanks for the update.


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## nicholsong

wakk44 said:


> Thanks for the update Chris,a very measured and balanced report.It's a shame that you had to kick and scream to get things done but I find that with most things lately.
> 
> Fiat came up trumps in the end after you twisted their arm and Vantage come out of it all with no credit whatsoever.It certainly is a rare occurrence,I haven't heard of another catastrophic engine failure with a Ducato of this year.


Chris

I can only reiterate what Wak44 said about thanking you for reporting and a good report.

I would just like to add that I consider the final satisfactory outcome is a lot down to your tenacity, with some support from MHF members with advice and encouragement.

A good, if somewhat delayed , result.

Enjoy the MH from now on 

Geoff


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## ardgour

Mike48 said:


> I thought Vantage had a good reputation but clearly don't function when things go wrong - ie the gas.
> 
> As for the mechanical (non habitation) aspects of a warranty it was always my understanding that responsibility lies with the vehicle manufacturer rather than the converter That is why all problems relating to the mechanicals of the vehicle are covered by Fiat rather than Vantage in this case. If for example an alternator fails who do you take the vehicle to for diagnosis and repair? In this case it has to be Fiat.
> 
> Now it seems in this case that Vantage could have been more helpful but in reality it was always going to be Fiat that resolved the problem via the vehicle's warranty. I wouldn't be so dismissive of Vantage as I can't see what they could have done when the warranty is with Fiat even though the Sales of Goods Act might point responsibility somewhere else.
> 
> Glad it's sorted and thanks for the update.


The bottom line is that Vantage sold the vehicle therefore it is their responsibility in law to deal with the problem if it turns out to be 'not of merchantable quality etc'. Yes they have to get Fiat to fix it but they are the ones who should be doing all the running around and putting pressure on the manufacturer not the customer who actually has no contract with the base vehicle supplier. It is the same as when we bought a bed from John Lewis which had a manufacturing fault - we got the replacement/ repair from JL who then pursued the manufacturer for our costs and theirs, the customer is not expected to go chasing after original manufacturers of goods. This is the whole value of the sale of goods act. Vantage could have come out of this smelling of roses (it was always going to be Fiat who had to bear all the costs) but they chose not to. You might feel you want to defend them but our experience with them since actually handing over the money has been less than positive. You only really find out how good a company is when things go wrong.

Chris


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## nicholsong

Mike 

Chris is right about the Sale of Goods Act which specifically puts the onus initially on the 'Seller' to protect the consumer from being fobbed off.

Of course in practice the Seller would rely on FIAT and for FIAT to cover the cost under their guarantee.

If FIAT refused to honour the guarantee the Seller would still be liable. For that reason alone I am surprised they did not want to get involved with FIAT to protect themselves since, together with the converters, they are part of FIAT's distibution chain for their base vehicle products, and should have more clout with FIAT than a consumer, but in Chris's case he provided the clout, but it should not have been that way.

I wonder what indemnities Dealers have in their contracts with the converters to cover costs of faults? Anyone know?

I have had little contact with Dealers, except the one who accepted my deposit cheque and sold the MH proir to my further inspection, but from what I read there are probably other Dealers who would have taken the same line - a sad reflection on the whole MH marketplace. Is it only UK - what have buyers from Continental Dealers experienced? (Maybe a new topic)

Geoff


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## rayc

> ardgour said:
> 
> 
> 
> The bottom line is that Vantage sold the vehicle therefore it is their responsibility in law to deal with the problem if it turns out to be 'not of merchantable quality etc'. Yes they have to get Fiat to fix it but they are the ones who should be doing all the running around and putting pressure on the manufacturer not the customer who actually has no contract with the base vehicle supplier.
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> Chris, that is what I found most surprising when I bought my first new motor home. The dealer and then the MH manufacturer and then Fiat should be the order of responsibility. It certainly takes the gloss off from buying a new motor home. Ray
Click to expand...


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## wakk44

Vantage could have earned some brownie points in this instance but chose not to and from this account seem unhelpful.It would be interesting to hear their side,I am convinced by Chris's well thought out and considered response but would like to hear what Vantage have to say.

This is an unusual case,a major engine failure on a relatively new vehicle so not many dealers have faced a similar problem.Having considered all this I won't be rushing to spend any money with Vantage in the future.


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## Pudsey_Bear

I'm having much lesser problems trying to sort out a rubbish TV, the seller flatly refuses to do anything, and points me straight at the manufacturer, the manufacturer says the seller should be doing it all, it is a huge minefield if the seller decides they won't help.

The sale of goods act and trading standards are of little help either.


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## nicholsong

Kev_n_Liz said:


> I'm having much lesser problems trying to sort out a rubbish TV, the seller flatly refuses to do anything, and points me straight at the manufacturer, the manufacturer says the seller should be doing it all, it is a huge minefield if the seller decides they won't help.
> 
> The sale of goods act and trading standards are of little help either.


If no response soon you may need to issue a writ in the Small Claims Court, not a very expensive cost which you should get back if you have to go that route, but maybe firstly a letter to the Seller advising them that this is your next course of action. If they are big company copy it to their legal department at HO.

Geoff


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## Pudsey_Bear

Cheers Geoff, I didn't go into details as it is off topic, but briefly, the manufacturer (Cello) has had it back, kept it on soak test for 4 weeks and found no problem with it, despite when I got it back it would still pop and go off, sound problems etc, they have since sent bu email updates to try and sort out the acknowledged sound problem with instructions, and I have followed them to the letter, I even did a video of me trying there so called fix, to show that even if done as instructed , it did not work, and sent it to them.

I'm awaiting a return call from the seller (direct Tvs) to my requesting a refund before I take some form of legal action as a last resort.

Apologies for going off topic ish.


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## nicholsong

Kev

It is on-topic in that it is another example about the problem of who should take responsibility; that as part of Chris(OP) problem.

I will PM you about other aspects re TV(to avoid too much divergence here)

Geoff


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## RS3100

I have recently joined the forum after several years away from caravanning, and now intending to buy a motorhome. I have been seriously considering spending a not inconsiderable sum of money with Vantage next year, and was very interested to read this.

I too would be interested to hear Vantage's side. It's not the fact that things go wrong, but how the seller deals with the situation when they do, and I agree that the company seem to have seriously fallen down in that respect.

I was also recently surprised to see an addition to Shire Conversions website in the form of a notice which states that they are not the same company as Shire Conversions Ltd situated at Unit 1, Pym Street, Leeds, which is Vantage's address.

A bit of digging revealed that Scot Naylor of Vantage is the director of Shire Conversions Ltd, and that the company was registered on 8th October of this year. This also strikes me as a rather underhand business practice and has me questioning whether Vantage Motorhomes are a company that I want to do business with, despite the attraction of their conversions.


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## Pudsey_Bear

I've visited them twice now, and attitude seems to be a problem at the higher level, snagging leaves a lot to be desired, I was pointing out things which should have been picked up before moving to the next stage, like no grommets around cables, cable draped over copper gas pipes, this right before they were about to hide it all behind carpet covered ply.

They do not like potential customers asking if a different sink or hob could be fitted, very closed minded in my view, it's their way or no way, I chose my way & to build my own.


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## coppo

Kev_n_Liz said:


> I've visited them twice now, and attitude seems to be a problem at the higher level, snagging leaves a lot to be desired, I was pointing out things which should have been picked up before moving to the next stage, like no grommets around cables, cable draped over copper gas pipes, this right before they were about to hide it all behind carpet covered ply.
> 
> They do not like potential customers asking if a different sink or hob could be fitted, very closed minded in my view, it's their way or no way, I chose my way & to build my own.


After visiting them and speaking to Scott I totally second what you say, its his way or no way, we walked away.

Paul.


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## rayc

I have no axe to grind one way or the other with Vantage but their response to the OP regarding his problem would be the same from most if not all dealers. Camper UK appear to be one of the exceptions when Sonesta had major problems with the semi auto gearbox on her Fiat based Burstner.
I wouldn't expect to much help from manufacturers after reading the terms of their warranties. Bailey are typical in saying you have to deal with Peugeot direct and your warranty is with them.


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## cabby

Well that would put me and I suspect several others, off buying a Bailey then.
First port of call is via the dealer who sold the vehicle.Then moved up the chain if needs be by the dealer as well.

cabby


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## Mike48

Most motorhome dealers haven't the facilities or abilities to deal with the mechanics of a motorhome. In practice, the Sale of Goods Act is only relevant if warranty issues cannot be resolved and then the seller becomes responsible.

In this case Fiat did the necessary. As for Vantage what precisely could they have done to deal with this issue given that they are incapable of resolving the problem without Fiat. They are simply not competent to deal with major engine failures. Indeed the warranty should have made it clear - and probably did - that problems with the mechanics of a vehicle are covered by the Fiat warranty. Surely if you have a mechanical problem the first port of call should be Fiat and not the manufacturer or company that sold the vehicle. 

Does anyone really bother to go to a motorhome dealer if there is a mechanical problem with the base vehicle?


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## rayc

> Mike48 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone really bother to go to a motorhome dealer if there is a mechanical problem with the base vehicle?
> 
> 
> 
> I was at Essanjay one day and they had a newish motorhome which was banging loudly from underneath when it went over bumps. It was a Swift with Fiat cab and alko chassis. None of them, plus the dealer, wanted to take the lead in investigating and diagnosing the problem. essanjay agreed to look at it being both Fiat and Alko agents.
> I do not know the outcome but multistage vehicles can be a pain when something is wrong and it is not obvious to the owner which bit.
Click to expand...


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## pomme1

Mike,

What Vantage could and should have done, as others have said, is to have taken the lead in dealing with Fiat via their relationship with the supplying base vehicle dealer, thus taking the load off the OP.

I understand what you are saying, but when we buy a 'van, we don't buy a kit of parts all of which no doubt have their own warranty, rather we buy a complete entity which is, contractually, entirely the responsibility of the motorhome dealer.

I don't realistically expect them to fix complex mechanical faults, what I do expect is for them to take reponsibility for ensuring that the matter is properly and expeditiously resolved. i.e. I expect them to look after their customer.

Roger


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## ardgour

A couple of you have said you would like to hear Vantage's side of this. I had intended to post the email from Vantage on here as soon as this problem was resolved so that people can make up their own minds, didn't want to do anything before then in case we had to take further action. 
As soon as I work out how to do it, I will put it up so you can judge for yourselves.
There is much discussion of the fact that the converters and dealers don't have the ability to deal with mechanical bits but in all this I think motorhome converters/ dealers are missing a trick. Knowing that they are selling a particular base vehicle (Fiat/ Renault/ Peugeot/ Merc) why don't they form a relationship with an appropriate workshop who can repair these then both businesses can benefit. Motorhome side can advertise the fact that they can arrange mechanical service/ repairs with a garage who know the vehicles and the garage gets a guaranteed source of work. If major fault such as ours occurs under warranty the dealer has some leverage to get it worked on quickly and the garage know they will get the bill paid by manufacturer anyway - its a win/ win.
This is not an outlandish idea, when we bought a van from Hymer UK in Preston they effectively had this set up and it worked. A couple of minor faults showed up just after we bought it, they took it back in fixed the habitation bit and their garage worked on the base vehicle then the van was returned to us fixed. Seamless service.
Sadly, the problem with all too many British companies these days is that they forget to look after their customers. One very successful company that has built its reputation on customer service is John Lewis and why do people shop there - because of the customer service. It's not rocket science.
Chris


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## 747

A number of Dealers are set up to do Mechanical Servicing of motorhomes and should be able to do more than just changing oil and filters. In your case it was obviously a job for a Fiat dealership.


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## Pudsey_Bear

Isn't the point of the dealer being the one who holds the warranty the whole point of the warranty, IE they are the first place you should go, then they arrange to sort it all out, as if the van is new then they are the customer of the van manufacturer or whoever they get the vans from and the warranty goes back up the chain.

There is also how was the warranty written it might be that they have it in the small print (rascals) that they only warranty the construction of the hab area, as they do not have the facilities to repair the base vehicle, and not the appliances as they do not have facilities to repair them, T&Cs suddenly become extremely important, and should be read before a deposit is made.


I'm not siding with Vantage or any dealer, they should have a person responsible for dealing with all warranty issues on the staff, they may only be able to liaise with the third party, but they will be used to doing that, and know who is the best contact for action on the customers behalf, not, sorry sir, nowt to do with us, which from the posts seems to be the prevailing attitude.


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## Pudsey_Bear

Has anyone emailed this thread to Vantage?


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## pomme1

Chris,

Your last post is absolutely spot on, and exactly how things should be. Indeed, I am aware of at least one other dealer who seems to have this sort of relationship with a Fiat dealer.

Although this may seem like heresy, I am wondering whether we simply have too many dealers and small scale converters in this country. Barriers to entry are low, and I do wonder about levels of technical expertise in some of them. I can think of a couple of high end European motorhome brands which now seem to be represented by dealers who no-one had heard of until a couple of years ago.

Finally, whilst warranties give a useful additional level of protection, that is all they do. The ultimate legal responsibility for the quality of the finished product lies unequivocally with the entity from whom the vehicle was purchased, in this case, Vantage.

Congratulations Chris on your tenacity and the lucid and rant free manner in which you have kept us up to speed.

Roger


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## Kev1

Being positive
I do hope the repair solves things long term
and that you can get back to enjoying your time with your MH.
However it has been an eye opener and something we all need to be aware of 
Good luck enjoy
Kev


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## ardgour

pomme1 said:


> Chris,
> 
> Your last post is absolutely spot on, and exactly how things should be. Indeed, I am aware of at least one other dealer who seems to have this sort of relationship with a Fiat dealer.
> 
> Although this may seem like heresy, I am wondering whether we simply have too many dealers and small scale converters in this country. Barriers to entry are low, and I do wonder about levels of technical expertise in some of them. I can think of a couple of high end European motorhome brands which now seem to be represented by dealers who no-one had heard of until a couple of years ago.
> 
> Finally, whilst warranties give a useful additional level of protection, that is all they do. The ultimate legal responsibility for the quality of the finished product lies unequivocally with the entity from whom the vehicle was purchased, in this case, Vantage.
> 
> Congratulations Chris on your tenacity and the lucid and rant free manner in which you have kept us up to speed.
> 
> Roger


Interesting and important question Roger. Rather than let it get lost in this thread I will start a new one just to hear others thoughts on the matter
thanks
Chris


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## Penquin

I am glad to hear that it has been sorted, although like many others, would suspect that it is down to your tenacity.....

Yes, it would be good if Vantage had taken the lead - but they would not want to as they feared they could be left holding the can (which they do anyway under the SoGA), and so have adopted the ostrich position.....

And I suspect that is common to many finishers and dealers who cannot comprehend what is going on under the bonnet...... and they would probably not have made the progress that you have done....

Perhaps now is the time to hit them with a claim for losses under the SoGA through the Small Claims Court.........

I do hope that you enjoy your Scottish trip....

Dave


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