# Burstner Elegance



## tude (Feb 9, 2008)

i was looking at motorhomes this wkend and was a bit confused.a burstner 11 plate 5 k on the clock £84,000. then i thought if you put vat on that price its over £100k it wasnt anything like new. im i missing something tude


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## Ian_n_Suzy (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: BURSTNER ELEGANCE*



tude said:


> i was looking at motorhomes this wkend and was a bit confused.a burstner 11 plate 5 k on the clock £84,000. then i thought if you put vat on that price its over £100k it wasnt anything like new. im i missing something tude


Surely the used price is inclusive of any VAT (unless its been hired or something)?

(Is this it? - http://www.emm-bee.co.uk/burstner-elegance-i821g-5056 )


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## blondel (Jun 12, 2005)

I think that the point being made is that a MH or anything else VAT rated costs a certain amount. The government takes 20% over the top of that. Therefore any used item should cost less than the original amount which includes the slice the government takes. My husband is entitled to free VAT on vehicle purchases and recently we found a used MH which would cost us several thousand pounds more than buying a new one!! Are the dealers making a big profit on these nearly new vans?


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Or are they merely reflecting the value of the m/h considering that a new vehicle has risen in price,

tony


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## tude (Feb 9, 2008)

*new prices*

yes what im saying is take the vat off any new motorhome and see what price it comes out at. the point basicly that price of £84,000 is way to much that vehicle wasnt much more than that new with vat onit get me drift. what the dealer is doing he is selling a 2nd hand one for more than a new one ????


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## Ian_n_Suzy (Feb 15, 2009)

blondel said:


> The government takes 20% over the top of that. Therefore any used item should cost less than the original amount which includes the slice the government takes.


Hi,

This is not strictly true.

On a used vehicle, it will likely be sold under the "Margin Scheme", this means that the VAT part is only paid on the difference between the purchase price and the sale price (i.e the gross profit).


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## Ian_n_Suzy (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: new prices*



tude said:


> yes what im saying is take the vat off any new motorhome and see what price it comes out at. the point basicly that price of £84,000 is way to much that vehicle wasnt much more than that new with vat onit get me drift. what the dealer is doing he is selling a 2nd hand one for more than a new one ????


If the original customer paid, say £90,000 (PLUS VAT), this would be £108,000.

Any customer coming along now is saving £24,000. I don't think that is an insignificant saving.


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

The line that is often stated that "as soon as you drive a new vehicle off the forecourt it depreciates by at least the VAT" is illogical/wrong, in my view.

Like much else, used vehicles work on the basis of supply & demand. What they cost new will impact on demand (how much of a discount the buyer wants, so as not to buy new themselves) and supply (how much of a hit the seller is prepared to take), but how much of that new price goes to the manufacturer, dealer or taxman is irrelevant.


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## tude (Feb 9, 2008)

*new price*

the bottom line for me is if i could buy a motorhome without paying vat ie vat exemption i could buy a brand new 2012 model for less than a 2nd hand 2011 model surely thats not cricket


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## Ian_n_Suzy (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: new price*



tude said:


> the bottom line for me is if i could buy a motorhome without paying vat ie vat exemption i could buy a brand new 2012 model for less than a 2nd hand 2011 model surely thats not cricket


But how many people can actually buy without paying the VAT?


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Me, :lol: 

tony


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## tude (Feb 9, 2008)

*vat*

ian the point im making genuine people can buy vat exempt motorhomes .the dealers are making a 2nd hand one dearer not right in my book.but i suppose if people are willing to pay more for a secound hand one well thats not my business.but if you look at all motorhomes now they have shot up in price but not 2nd hand values


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## Ian_n_Suzy (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: vat*



tude said:


> ian the point im making genuine people can buy vat exempt motorhomes .the dealers are making a 2nd hand one dearer not right in my book.but i suppose if people are willing to pay more for a secound hand one well thats not my business.but if you look at all motorhomes now they have shot up in price but not 2nd hand values


I hear what you're saying. But surely it is only relevant if you are one of the people who CAN buy VAT exempt.

Otherwise, the only price you can compare is the price New (INC VAT) which in my example was £24,000 more expensive new against 12 months old.


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## ThursdaysChild (Aug 2, 2008)

If the Burstner you are considering is second hand and on a dealer's forecourt, I would be very surprised if the price did not include VAT.
You appear, however, to be saying that the dealer wants the forecourt price PLUS VAT. Most odd.
Perhaps you would clarify ?


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## tude (Feb 9, 2008)

*vat*

no there is no vat on the price in lamons tems i can buy a 2011 model with 5k on the clock for £84k my mate who has a vat exempt cert can buy a 2012 model brand new for 78k if you put vat on it i can buy it 78k plus vat £93600


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## dipsie (May 30, 2008)

No one has yet mentioned the fact that you can only buy a new motorhome without having to pay the VAT if you are registered as disabled, and you have to have the vehicle modified to certain spec t o obtain it. If you were a motor trader or similar you would pay the VAT first and then claim it back, and hope you do not get a VAT inspection for some time. Dipsie


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## tude (Feb 9, 2008)

*price*

and before anybody ask there is plenty of burstners around for 94k upwards brand new and im sure that if i went into a dealer with cash i wud get one cheaper than that thanks tude all im saying dealers are over pricing without doubt


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

It's effectively 'marked down' £9600 from new so it's a saving for you, but not for a disabled user. :wink: 

tony


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## ThursdaysChild (Aug 2, 2008)

With difficulty, I think I understand what you are saying, although " lamons tems " had me stumped for a while.

We all think dealers are screwing us, but unless you know what the dealer actually paid for the MH in question it seems a bit unfair to have a go at him.


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## blondel (Jun 12, 2005)

That was the point I was making - the dealer actually told us that it would be cheaper for us to buy the new one. My husband is disabled, needing a wheelchair and hand controls to drive - That adaptation is done before we get the vehicle. My understanding is that there is no VAT payable on 2nd hand vehicles but there is on new - I may be wrong about this and if I am I am sure someone will tell me!!


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## tude (Feb 9, 2008)

*Prices*

Well I can't believe what some people are saying here this vehicle at 84k if you put vat on it it's nearly 102k a new one is less than that I no there is no vat on this cos it's 2nd hand if you are disabled which would you buy.i think what dealers have done is knocked the vat price off full retail price ie over 100 k less vat equals 84 k in other words. you who is disabled buy new 78k ish or 84k 2nd hand ??


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

:?: :?: :?: 

tony


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## Ian_n_Suzy (Feb 15, 2009)

Looking at it completely from a non disabled point of view.

£102,000 brand new or £84,000 12 months old, it wouldn't cross my mind that a disabled person could get it brand new for what I have to pay for a 12 month old one. Because it is irrelevant to myself.

I personally don't think the 12 months depreciation looks that out of line.

As it happens I can afford neither. :?


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## ThursdaysChild (Aug 2, 2008)

just to add to Gemmy's

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:


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## dipper17 (Jul 30, 2011)

VAT is irrelevant when you are buying something. VAT is charged on all sales of motorhomes whether they are new or secondhand. The scheme which allows a motor trader only to pay VAT on the margin to help their cashflow. However, in practical terms VAT is due on both sides of the transaction. The reason I say it's irrelevant is shown below:

New Motorhome £96,000 including VAT - after two years you get £65,000 trade in. Mr Smith, is happy to pay the trader £82,000 which includes VAT of £17000 * 20/80 = £4,250 so if you look at it this way you pay goods of £60,750 and VAT of £4,250 = £65,000.

The point is that an item is worth what you will pay for it. Nothing to do with VAT. The whole country has to pay VAT, therefore it effects all prices equally. After all an item costing £96,000 is made up of £80,000 to the trader and £12,000 to the government - you pay £96,000. A year later the same motorhome is sold for £85,000 so you saved £11,000 is does not really matter who gets you £85,000 you've saved £11,000!!.


Cheers


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

It seem to me that a number of people are looking at this from the wrong angle. Unless you can buy a new motorhome without VAT, then the whole VAT argument is irrelevant and it is most certainly not the case that dealers are profiteering by charging for non-existent VAT. If a dealer is selling a second home motorhome then someone will have purchased it from new and subsequently sold it. The dealer will have paid a market price for it and will be selling it on with a mark up.


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