# To TAG or not to TAG



## FranknJan (Dec 18, 2007)

Hi to everyone.
We are considering changing our Autotrail Scout for an Arapaho which has a Tag /Twin rear axel.
The question is are there any problems/benefits with the longer vehicle.
We would be grateful for any comments.


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Tag*

Tags

Reduced turning circle
Churns up campsites grass
More rolling resistance
More tyres

Increased payload
Greater stability
Greater Road Holding
Vastly Increased living area

Now Also available With RWD Alko-Mercedes Sprinter 6 Ton Chassis (Not Auto-Trail)


----------



## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*TAG*

Hi

This is my second TAG axle and I love it. The pro's and con's are summed up nicely above.

Another thing, when reversing into a tight space, I feel like the back end is "digging in" and being stubborn - but you get used to handling it.

As for tyres, this van is on 15000 miles and all tyres are tip top.

Fuel economy is worse than a non tag due to extra resistance.

Tolls in France can be horrendous - technically in class 4, although occasionally you might sneak through as a class 2. Italian tolls - again number of axles are a factor in the rate.

Russell


----------



## tony645 (Sep 26, 2010)

My farmyard is quite dificult to manouvre in, I have a burstner tag axle and also us a Transit lwb for work, can`t see any differencs between the two in parking etc apart from the burstner being about 9ft longer, I`d say the difference in turning circle is negligable.
Must admit the tag drives superb, very stable around bends and does`nt suffer from cross-winds or get dragged sideways by large vehicles on the motorway, plus its got 1500kg payload. Tags done 16000miles now and the 4 rear tyres are like new, fronts are about 60% worn. I suppose you could get more tyre scrub on the rear if you constantly turned in very tight corners but as far as rolling resistance can`t be any diferent to a twin wheel set-up


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: TAG*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> This is my second TAG axle and I love it. The pro's and con's are summed up nicely above.
> 
> ...


Never pay class 4 Russel

Demand "Classe Touristique" Charged as II

TM


----------



## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Tolls*

Well on paper, weight and number of axles make mine class 4!

Is there such as thing as tourist class? Where is it documented? If I could be charged class 2, I would use the French motorways.

Russell


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: Tolls*



Rapide561 said:


> Well on paper, weight and number of axles make mine class 4!
> 
> Is there such as thing as tourist class? Where is it documented? If I could be charged class 2, I would use the French motorways.
> 
> Russell


Never read my posts on French Tolls Russel?

When in France, do as the French do.

Manned tolls usually charge ClassII even for Larger motorhomes. If they disagree ague the toss, ask to speak with the management.

If it is Auto Toll, press the "Help" Buttton. Simply state the toll is charging you class III or IV for a Class II Vehicle.

Never been refused yet. If they Did, I would be creating a que, for a while at least. And that they don't need. Simply demand "Classe Touristiques"

TM


----------



## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

FranknJan said:


> Hi to everyone.
> We are considering changing our Autotrail Scout for an Arapaho which has a Tag /Twin rear axel.
> The question is are there any problems/benefits with the longer vehicle.
> We would be grateful for any comments.


Hi FranknJan,

We have owned a tag axle for over 5 years now, and would certainly have another one. All the virtues have been posted above, but the con about tyre wear and scrub only apply to extreme turning circles, and not to everyday driving. For us, the pros far out way the cons.
The most I have been charged for French tolls is Cat 3, simply because I disputed the Cat 4 charge, but now that I am aware of Teemyob's advice, that won't happen again.

Enjoy your Tag axle MH, if you go down that route. :wink:

Cheers,

Jock.


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

JockandRita said:


> FranknJan said:
> 
> 
> > Hi to everyone.
> ...


Best Translation I can give is

"bonjour, s'il vous plaît aidez-moi. la barrière le peage demand a j'ai payer de classe III. Le véhicule est de classe II, Camping Car Touriste."

or Similar

"bonjour, s'il vous plaît aidez-moi. la barrière le peage demand a j'ai payer de classe III. Le véhicule est de classe II, Camping-Car ou classe Touristiques"

TM

PS: We only have one rear axle but four rear wheels. But The same consideration should be given to Tags.


----------



## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

*TAG AXLES*

No No No its not a bl...y Tag axle. Its a Double axle. A Tag axle is a non driven axle in front or behind a rear DRIVEN axle. (Look at many Sainsburys lorries to see them) But I have NEVER seen a Tag axle on a motorhome.

Rant over

C.


----------



## tony645 (Sep 26, 2010)

Anyway I think tags look better on a longer mh, give the impression of less hanging out at the back and a lesser tipping point, only my opinion, just aestetics :wink:


----------



## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

Grrrrrrr!


----------



## olley (May 1, 2005)

*Re: TAG AXLES*



CliveMott said:


> No No No its not a bl...y Tag axle. Its a Double axle. A Tag axle is a non driven axle in front or behind a rear DRIVEN axle. (Look at many Sainsburys lorries to see them) But I have NEVER seen a Tag axle on a motorhome.
> 
> Rant over
> 
> C.


I think the weight of popular parlance is against you Clive. :lol:

Olley


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*axle*

Could be worse, could be calling it a tag axel!

Wicki Axles

States

"A tag axle is a dead axle situated behind a drive axle."


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Has been debated before*

Has been debated here

Click< Me


----------



## clive1821 (Mar 27, 2010)

Yes, I have a twin rear axle, and always get done for cat 4, in reality it is correct and it clearly shows on the pictures which i was shown, but yet I go to the man/woman toll and usually get cat 2 but as i cant speak a word of french, german,itialn I stand no chance.... still the tolls are ok in italy, and only went through 2 french tolls going down so was not that bad, but thanks for the info, the twin axel, is good for the extra cargo, and if one tyre goes you at least have time to sort it i spose, not noticed any problems with reversing, turning circle etc... each to their own  i would like a larger fuel tank if i was asked as i have only 300 mile range, was impressed with access to GPL (LPG) all over Italy, bit different to spain..... strange and wonder why, cant be many gas powered cars there compaired with Italy....


----------



## JeanLuc (Jan 13, 2007)

And just to pour a bit more oil on the fire that Clive has started, he is correct (if a little pedantic). Front wheel driven motorhomes have twin rear axles, not Tag axles. A motorhome with a driven rear axle may have a Tag axle. This explanation in the context of big RVs (that might well need a Tag) sets out many of the pros and cons.

RVs and Tag Axles

Philip

I can hear the groans about pedantry starting already!
:lol:


----------



## tony645 (Sep 26, 2010)

Please will the op buy the tag then we can all go to bed :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Oh!! should I buy a C class or an A class??????????


----------



## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

*Re: TAG AXLES*



CliveMott said:


> No No No its not a bl...y Tag axle. Its a Double axle. A Tag axle is a non driven axle in front or behind a rear DRIVEN axle. (Look at many Sainsburys lorries to see them) But I have NEVER seen a Tag axle on a motorhome.
> 
> Rant over
> 
> C.


You may never have seen one Clive but they do exist. 

In the 1980's Hymer made a 750S on a Mercedes twin rear wheel drive with an unbraked tag axle fitted behind the drive wheels.

That is a total of 8 wheels (to save you working it out  )

After all these years, it had to happen. You have sullied your *very* impressive pedigree. 8O


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: TAG AXLES*



747 said:


> CliveMott said:
> 
> 
> > No No No its not a bl...y Tag axle. Its a Double axle. A Tag axle is a non driven axle in front or behind a rear DRIVEN axle. (Look at many Sainsburys lorries to see them) But I have NEVER seen a Tag axle on a motorhome.
> ...


You can see one below

Available for €14,500

And there is a least one in the UK


----------



## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

*Re: TAG AXLES*



CliveMott said:


> No No No its not a bl...y Tag axle. Its a Double axle. A Tag axle is a non driven axle in front or behind a rear DRIVEN axle. (Look at many Sainsburys lorries to see them) But I have NEVER seen a Tag axle on a motorhome.
> 
> Rant over
> 
> C.


All right Clive, how about Ta................................ndem Axles. :wink:

You are of course correct, and I should have known better having driven many 6 x 2 tractor units where I can lift my tag axle when empty. It automatically comes down into place when loaded.

Cheers,

Jock.


----------



## Chudders (Jul 5, 2008)

TAG axle, twin axle etc whatever you want to call it I,m sure most people understand exactly what the OP means and is asking for advice and most posters have replied in a positive manner with helpful advice both for and against. (Ignore the pedants.) All has been said about the extra tyres , although I can,t say I,ve noticed much difference in turning circle. For me the extra space and payload is invaluable, and the stability on the road is much better than a single rear axle. I find I don,t get 'sucked' in by large coaches etc speeding past on motorways etc. With only two of us I never have to worry about payload, I never get anywhere near the maximum. I do find I have to be careful about the overhang at the rear when turning in tight places but that is true of any vehicle with a substantial overhang 'TAG' or otherwise.


----------



## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Tolls*

Hi

Trev - thanks for the translation, but, the tariff is set at the following criteria - (extracts)

Class 2 - height over 2.0m but less than 3.0m, two axles

Class 3 - two axles and either height over 3.0m or weight over 3500kg

Class 4 - Vehicle (note the type of vehicle not specified) with more than two axles having a height greater than 3.0m

So what ever I do, I am class 4.

I am willing to argus all day long with the French about this and in the past have gone to the automatic booth and pushed the help button and claimed "je suis camping car".

Italian tolls are a bit clearer as there are further "groups".

Here is a link to the French classes

http://www.autoroutes.fr/en/preparatives/vehicle-classification.html

I have send loads of emails to the toll departments in France, and once they have details of the vehicle, the reply is always class 4. Even the Millau Bridge said the same. There are several replies to my emails on the forum somewhere.

Here is the reply from the Viaduc

*Bonjour, Pour votre véhicule de classe 4, le tarif au péage du Viaduc de Millau est de 29,50€ toute l'année. Vous trouverez ci-joint le détail des tarifs et classes de véhicules.

Souhaitant vous revoir prochainement sur le viaduc de Millau, nous vous prions d'agréer, Monsieur, nos plus sincères salutations.

Amandine KELLER Tél +33(0)5 65 61 61 61 Fax +33(0)5 65 61 61 60Nouvelle adresse Mail : [email protected] COMPAGNIE EIFFAGE DU VIADUC DE MILLAUSERVICE COMMERCIALPéage de Saint-Germain, BP 60457, F- 12104 Millau Cedexwww.leviaducdemillau.com *

I am of the opinion that if I get class 2 I have been lucky, but prepare to pay as a 4. I use the motorways only on free sections or to skirt large towns, such as around Perpignan etc

In Italy, I have seen the toll booth attendant look out of the window to check how many axles I have. With a single rear axle, with double wheels on it, it may be easier to pass through in the lower class.

Russell


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*answered*



Chudders said:


> TAG axle, twin axle etc whatever you want to call it I,m sure most people understand exactly what the OP means and is asking for advice and most posters have replied in a positive manner with helpful advice both for and against. (Ignore the pedants.) All has been said about the extra tyres , although I can,t say I,ve noticed much difference in turning circle. For me the extra space and payload is invaluable, and the stability on the road is much better than a single rear axle. I find I don,t get 'sucked' in by large coaches etc speeding past on motorways etc. With only two of us I never have to worry about payload, I never get anywhere near the maximum. I do find I have to be careful about the overhang at the rear when turning in tight places but that is true of any vehicle with a substantial overhang 'TAG' or otherwise.


Just the answer the topic poster will be looking for. Agree with you about the pedants.

I know we have gone off topic slightly with tolls, but still relevant.

TM


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: Tolls*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> Trev - thanks for the translation, but, the tariff is set at the following criteria - (extracts)
> 
> ...


Hello Russel,

Well mine must look much smaller than yours. Or I have a face nobody wants to argue with (but doubt that very much).

I have only ever paid class III once and Class IV once. And that was due to my co-pilocks.

When I press the Help button and explain then the toll has always been remotely re-set to class II. When I have argued my case with toll operators, which has only happened in a few cases, they always give-in and revert to class II charge. Almost always, operators in manned booths charge class II automatically.

If the toll operators / machines were to constantly charge me class III. Then I would have to try and avoid them as the extra cost is staggering, especially for IV.

TM


----------



## txe4man (Apr 7, 2009)

Hi TM, perhaps you just speak very good french? we tried what you said in a post in 2010, pressing the intercom and asking for class2, they refused on both occcasions saying that we were 3 metres high, which is true,we are not twin axle, and they would not budge. our french is not up to argument standard so we payed up!


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Case*

well the 3m is an Excuse, the operator can overide the system for that. A case of being awkward if you ask me.

I would have stayed put for a while until someone came along. Might of asked them for a tape measure!

Well I suggest the more that argue their case the better. As I said, I almost always pay class II. over 3m, over 3500kG and twin rear wheel, single axle.

(Have you tried waving your arms around in-front of the CCTV Cameras - French Style?).

Tell them your card will not work and you only have enough cash for the class II.

TM


----------



## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

On a slight tangent I went to Cardiff over New Year and on the approach to the Toll Booth on the Severn crossing saw the cost for "over 3.5 Tonnes" (which I come into) and had a nasty shock !!!

So breath held I approached the Toll Booth and the very pleasant lady charged me car rate only !!! Is this policy for MH's or was I just lucky boyo ?? (sorry but I couldnt resist the boyo, sad I know :lol: )


----------



## Chudders (Jul 5, 2008)

Mr Plodd, I had exactly the same when I went over the Severn Bridge a couple of months ago. Thought I was gonna get charged I think about £16 but only had to pay the car price. Like a fool I queried it and the operator said we were not a commercial vehicle which have to pay the higher charges dependant on weight etc. I was more than happy. So for the info of the OP even a TAG axle does not pay extra on this bridge. However the Tamar Bridge out of Cornwall does charge more for a TAG axle (Gonna keep using that term) You only pay to get out of the County though.
Dave


----------



## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

I don't wish to get into an argument with teemyob (or anyone else) but having lived in France for 4 years and initially with a double / tag axle (call it what you like) motorhome I would agree that in the past you were able to argue the "I'm a camping car" but nowadays they have very clear guidelines as to what is more than a class 2 and unless you are very lucky with the booth operator you will be required to pay class 3 or 4, if you have 3 sets of wheels each side and more than 3 metres high you are class 4 no argument! as to disputing the height, the toll area is equipped with auto height measuring cells and they will not normally enter into any discussion on that either.


----------



## rrusty (Sep 15, 2007)

*Re: Tolls*



teemyob said:


> If the toll operators / machines were to constantly charge me class III. Then I would have to try and avoid them as the extra cost is staggering, especially for IV.
> 
> TM


What is the approx costs for class 2, 3, and 4 over say 50 miles?


----------



## Jean-Luc (Jul 21, 2005)

Whatever about weight and number of axles, I cant see two french buddies, one with an A class or low profile and the other with an overcab agreeing that each should pay different rates, they would possibly set fire to the toll booth first.


----------



## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Tolls*

Rusty

You can play on www.autoroutes.fr and add destinations, classes etc. There is an English translater button.

Russell


----------



## Chudders (Jul 5, 2008)

The only other point I think worth mentioning is that they are generally associated with a bigger vehicle. However whilst mine is a little higher than a coachbuilt that is due to the double floor and not the axle configuration. The width of most motorhomes, coachbuilt an A class are very similar within an inch or two , so that is not of concern. The length however is likely to be longer. Mine is 27 and a bit feet. Not been a problem though, the length has to follow where ever you go you just need a bit more time before pulling back in from overtaking and a bit more care reversing particularly into spaces on camp sites. As I mentioned the extra space and much larger payload outweighs any disadvantages for me. 
The road fund licence is also cheaper for a PHG as opposed to a PLG. I reckon most TAG axle motorhomes would fall into the Private Heavy Goods category.


----------



## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Tax*

Good point re the tax disc! I think this stems from years ago when lots of horse boxes were in the 3500 - 7500 kg category.

Russell


----------



## Chudders (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Tax*



Rapide561 said:


> Good point re the tax disc! I think this stems from years ago when lots of horse boxes were in the 3500 - 7500 kg category.
> 
> Not sure how long it will be though before the Government catch up and make PHG more expensive than PLG. Seems logical to me that the PHG should be more expensive but lets not tell them.


----------



## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

Actually I was wrong, I have seen a very new Merc based motorhome with that Alco chassis, fully independant suspension and one driven and one non driven rear axle at doozledorfe.

But Its just one of those things that grates .

Fun
C.


----------



## Chudders (Jul 5, 2008)

CliveMott said:


> Actually I was wrong, I have seen a very new Merc based motorhome with that Alco chassis,
> C.


My turn to pedantic. Al-Ko is spelt this way


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Worse*



CliveMott said:


> Actually I was wrong, I have seen a very new Merc based motorhome with that Alco chassis, fully independant suspension and one driven and one non driven rear axle at doozledorfe.
> 
> But Its just one of those things that grates .
> 
> ...


Can't be as bad as people saying Snow Tyres instead of winter tyres!


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Argument*



eurajohn said:


> I don't wish to get into an argument with teemyob (or anyone else) but having lived in France for 4 years and initially with a double / tag axle (call it what you like) motorhome I would agree that in the past you were able to argue the "I'm a camping car" but nowadays they have very clear guidelines as to what is more than a class 2 and unless you are very lucky with the booth operator you will be required to pay class 3 or 4, if you have 3 sets of wheels each side and more than 3 metres high you are class 4 no argument! as to disputing the height, the toll area is equipped with auto height measuring cells and they will not normally enter into any discussion on that either.


Must be my Charm and Killer Handsome Smile!.

But I also keep all my toll tickets from previous booths. If I do enter an argument, I can produce the tickets as additional leverage.

TM


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Grates*



CliveMott said:


> Actually I was wrong, I have seen a very new Merc based motorhome with that Alco chassis, fully independant suspension and one driven and one non driven rear axle at doozledorfe.
> 
> But Its just one of those things that grates .
> 
> ...


I did send you a PM Clive with This Link when I posted it back in November.

Never got a reply!

TM


----------



## rongob (Apr 30, 2007)

I guess i must be just lucky but in 4 years of owning a tag axle and travelling in France on there motorways quite extensively i have never been charged more than class 2


----------



## tony645 (Sep 26, 2010)

Hey teemyob, is that a Tag parachute?


----------



## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*TAG*

I will add that I think the TAG axles do look pretty.

Russell


----------



## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

Chudders said:


> My turn to be pedantic. Al-Ko is spelt this way


 :lol: :lol: :lol:

I too think that Tags, Twins, Duals, Tandems, etc, etc, look great too. :wink:

Jock.


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*spelt*



Chudders said:


> CliveMott said:
> 
> 
> > Actually I was wrong, I have seen a very new Merc based motorhome with that Alco chassis,
> ...


Do (Did) you meeen spellt that way?


----------

