# New to Motorhoming, question about electrical system



## HikerG (Nov 20, 2009)

Think I might have a problem with the electrical charging system on my Hymer B564 and want some ideas of where to look first and what to test for!

The vehicle is 1998 2.5 TD on Fiat Ducato. Has 1 85Ah leisure battery installed. First 2 nights were on campsite EHU. Next 2 nights were wild camping. During day I was working so by wild camping I mean a few hours lighting both evenings, nothing else! This morning I was checking the bulbs to quote to campercare for LED replacements and battery meter above habitation door seemed to measure 12v (was slightly higher before wild camping but lights bright). 

Then this evening I made a journey of 40 miles (just over an hour) with the fridge the only thing using 12v). When I arrived at the campsite tonight the habitation lights were really dim, the electronic entry step would not work and battery 1 and battery 2 reading virtually nil! Am I right in thinking battery 1 is the vehicle battery? If so how was this showing nil? I would have thought driving for an hour would partially charge both battery 1 and battery 2.

So what do you think? Old leisure battery perhaps? Something wrong with charger? I've just spent almost £70.00 on blubs and will be spending another £500+ on Gaslow in less than 2 weeks. Whilst I had considered getting 2 high power leisure batteries I've not really budgeted to spend this now. Also seen people recommend these Sterling battery chargers costing £500.00! So in my position what would you do?

Gary


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Gary, do you have a multi meter, if so check the voltages. A fully charged battery, when not being charged by EHU or engine running is around 12.6 volts, anything under 12 volts is very flat. Then try when connected to EHU or with engine running, the voltage at the batteries should go up to over 14 volts. If you do not have a multi meter you can get one for around 10 to 15 pounds. You will use it a lot. Let us know the results of your tests and we will recommend what to do next, Alan.


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## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

I can't add much to Erneboys post. 

The battery & charging voltages need to be recorded accurately for a diagnosis to be made. So record the observed voltages to the first decimal place. 

A fully discharged battery will be at approx 11.7 to 12 V

A fully charged battery will be at approx 12.6 to 12.8 V after resting.

The voltage on charge should be approx 14.2 to 14.5 V

Let us know what you find.

D.


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## jenniedream (Jul 19, 2009)

Well...I thought I had sent an SOS in my sleep. I have a B564 Hymer which seems to be discharging...wait for it...the engine battery. New battery before Christmas, fine whilst staying at Crystal Palace in snow but after 6 weeks laid up under cover (snowed in most of the time) it won't start. Going to stick my Mitsy (Pajero) on to see if I can jump start it.
Now worried about the leisure battery. Will watch this with interest. Anyway we have to have the downs to appreciate the ups!! All the best!


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## Chudders (Jul 5, 2008)

Jenniedream, If I understand your post correctly your engine battery has had no charge for 6 weeks. whilst laid up. Not really surprised battery is low. All sorts of electronics running even while laid up, have you for instance an alarm system, that could help drain a battery and I suppose you have checked that no cab light or anything left on. The radio also uses battery to maintain its memory. Others on here with more knowledge will have other ideas.
Regards, Dave


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## jenniedream (Jul 19, 2009)

Oh that's nice of you..to give me hope...took front off radio and did not set alarm. No - no lights on. All the mechanical blokes round me say battery should have held charge but I have bought a portable charger /inverter thing which weighs a ton and that plus my Pajero should spring it into life. Going back to Crystal Palace in two weeks so will take it to Dave Newell in Telford, he's ace. I just like to understand these things. I have to say I felt more secure with a caravan cos I always had an option whereas with a motorhome it's all or nothing!!


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## HikerG (Nov 20, 2009)

Ok will have to buy a multimeter first thing in the morning, can't say I'm sure how to use it though or if it's possible to do these tests with one pair of hands. 

For most of the time the fridge has been on either 240V or Gas. The van started fine after work and I decided to save gas and switch to 12v. After the 40 mile journey I noticed the habitation lights were very dim and electric step not working. What I could not understand was why both Battery 1 and Battery 2 were reading low on my panel above the door. I thought the vehicle battery was protected from habitation appliances. I've got a manual in English but it often shows diagrams that are different to my vehicle, the panel over the door and the Transformer / Rectifier being cases in point. The manual talks of a switch to change between lead acid and dryfill on the Elektroblock EBL99 but I have the Elektroblock EBL104-3 fitted. The leisure battery is only 75Ah and seems to sit high. The cover does not sit properly because the battery is too high. 

I've attached a photo of my panel above the habitation door. I know what the guage on the left tells me. The 2 switches reveal the state of the freshwater and grey water tanks and the state of Battery 1 and Battery 2. What I don't really understand is what the dial on the right is telling me or what the rocker switches do. One called 12 Ein / Aus seems to kill the 12v power which seems to make sense from my limited schoolboy german. What does the other rocker marked reserve / aus do? Could I have had this rocker set wrong? Also what is the dial itself actually telling me?

Is there a website that shows you with diagrams how to use the multimeter?


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

Hi Gary

I don't know your van, but _I think_

The meter on the right is the ammeter, which shows positive charge or negative discharge from the battery system.

Do battery 1 and 2 say the same thing? It may be that the panel can do 2 leisure batteries, but by having one battery it shows the same on both settings.

Normally, the 12V to power the fridge comes from the engine alternator only, and there is no feed from the leisure battery. This is because the standard fridges used in motorhomes can take a huge amount of 12V dc to run them. I don't know if it's possible with your system to try to run the fridge off the leisure battery, but it's probably not a good idea.

Some fridges can run off 12V battery quite successfully, and these are special, normally used on small panel van conversions.

Hope this is of some help tonight. Hopefully, tomorrow will bring someone along who actually knows more of what they're talking about than me :roll:

Gerald


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

If you are doubtful about how to use the multi meter we should be able to help, the instructions may help too but they can be complicated. Measuring voltage is quite easy, you can just do it across each battery red to +, black to-. 

There is always someone browsing, so ask questions if you need to, Alan.


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## JeanLuc (Jan 13, 2007)

Several things to comment on.

My Hymer has a slightly later version of the Schaudt control panel, but there are similarities, so here goes.
You have worked out that the rocker switch on the far left indicates water tank levels on the left hand gauge - fresh when up, waste when down.
The second rocker switch from the left (to the right of the left-hand gauge) indicates the state of charge in the batteries. The equivalent switch on mine is up for starter battery and down for leisure. This is indicated by icons, rather than 'Batterie 1 / 2' as on yours, but I presume the operation will be the same.
The third switch from the left has got me beaten. You will have worked out the 'Aus' means 'out' or OFF in this case. I cannot think what 'reserve' this controls, unless it is something to do with an increase in fresh water storage - perhaps an electrically controlled overflow valve? Or perhaps it is just a reserve, i.e. spare switch. The equivalent switch on my panel controls the awning light outside above the door, but it is clearly indicated as such by an icon.
The right-hand gauge shows current flow to and from the leisure battery. When charging on hook-up it should show around 15-20 amps in the green segment, and when charging from the alternator, it will go to the extreme right of the dial (at first). When not on hook-up or driving, it will show the drain from the leisure battery in the red segment - I cannot remember seeing ours go beyond about 5-7 amps. This gauge does not indicate any condition to do with the starter battery.
The far right-hand switch is the master control for the 12V habitation circuit. Up (Ein) is on and the green light above will come on to show that power is supplied. This master switch will cut off all 12V hab circuits EXCEPT the step, internal door/entrance light, and the Truma safety dump valve. To switch these off as well (if laying-up for an extended period and wanting to prevent battery drain) you need to switch off the master switch on the face panel of the EBL 104-3.
Finally, the Batt Alarm red light will come on if the leisure battery charge falls to somewhere around 11-11.5 volts and the system will shut down if it falls to 10.5V.

Concerning battery type selection, the switch is a recessed microswitch on the face of the EBL (on my EBL99 it is on the right-hand side). It should be set to 'Blei-Gel' for Gel batteries, or 'Blei-saure' for standard lead-acid (including Elecsol). If this has been wrongly set, it could have damaged the battery; particularly if set to Gel when a Lead-acid battery is fitted. The second stage of the charging regime lasts a lot longer for a Gel battery and could cook a Lead-acid.

Regarding the fridge, this will only work on 12V whilst the engine is running. When stationary, it must run on gas or 230V. Its 12V supply is taken from the vehicle battery, not the leisure battery, as this mode is designed only for use during transit.

If there is no charge to the leisure battery when on 230V hook-up then I suspect a fuse has blown within the EBL. This seems to be fairly common and a search on MHF will reveal info regarding the solution. You should see whether charging is taking place by looking at the right-hand meter on the control panel. If not, check with a multi-meter (set to V DC) across the leisure battery's terminals whilst on charge, and you should see an increase when 230V is switched on.

Finally, a 40 mile trip will do little to re-charge an exhausted leisure battery, particularly if the starter battery needs boosting too.

Hope this helps.

Philip


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## hogan (Oct 31, 2006)

What a great reply thanks Philip
You learn something every day


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I have similar Schaudt panel on my N+B Arto (2003)

The rocker switch to the left of the right hand guage controls the water pump. If it is the same on yours when it is on AUS you will get no water pumping. Mine is marked Wasserpumpe, but yours may just be a reserve switch.

Geoff


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

hikerG can I draw your attention to this MHF forum >Members guides<

the 12V systems that I wrote may help you get your head around some of the basic issues amd that is here

>12V systems<


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## lr147 (Jan 27, 2008)

With regards to the engine battery drain with radios with removable facias they still drain the battery with the front off as they still draw power for memory etc. I had the same issue. My get around was to wire the radio to the leisure battery. Helpped alot. I also now disconnect the engine battery to save it from happening.


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## HikerG (Nov 20, 2009)

Hi,

Thanks Philip for the detailed reply. I've just bought a multimeter and will get to checking the batteries soon. I'm told you really need to disconnect from EHU for 4 hours to test if a battery is on the way out. 

I'm still clueless as to what the rocker switch marked Reserve / Aus does. What I can say is that currently on hookuo battery 1 is reading 13v and battery 2 is reading 13.5v. If I disconnect the hookup lead then they read baterry 1 nil and battery 2 13.5v. This nil reading makes no sense to me. If I'm to assume battery 1 is the vehicle battery and battery 2 is the leisure battery then why do I get the nil reading on battery 1 when I disconnect the hookup lead. 

Also worth noting is that whilst on hookup the dial on the right is in the middle reading zero. From what some replies are saying I should see this shoot up to the right. With hookup disconnected and engine running it still reads zero. With no hookup and no engine running but all lights on it just falls back slightly, reading about negative 3 at a guess. 

I also bought some blade fuses and will check these but does any of the above point to where to look first?

Thanks

Gary


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## Mick757 (Nov 16, 2009)

erneboy said:


> . A fully charged battery, when not being charged by EHU or engine running is around 12.6 volts, anything under 12 volts is very flat. Then try *when connected to EHU or with engine running, the voltage at the batteries should go up to over 14 volts*.


While not wanting to hijack a thread, after reading this ive gone out and 'tested' my own batteries - both brand new. The van battery was showing 12.7 'at rest', but not had a charge for a few days, and 13.8 whilst the engine was running. The leisure battery was showing 12.9 'resting' - but regularly hooked up, and 13.8 whilst hooked up. (no + 14v's there you notice) Do these figures look acceptable, or might the meter be suspect?


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## JeanLuc (Jan 13, 2007)

HikerG said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks Philip for the detailed reply. I've just bought a multimeter and will get to checking the batteries soon. I'm told you really need to disconnect from EHU for 4 hours to test if a battery is on the way out.
> 
> ...


Assuming Battery 2 is leisure, and that at 13.5 V it is pretty well charged, then the needle in the right-hand dial would be registering zero whilst on hook-up. Once the leisure battery is discharged, it will start high when hooked-up (even higher from the alternator when driving) and fall back gradually to the zero centre position as the battery 'fills up'. What you have described above in the penultimate para. is normal behaviour for this meter with a fully-charged battery.

The issue of the apparent disconnection between on and off hook-up and the battery 1 switch position is beyond me.

My inclination would be to visit an auto-electrician who understands motorhomes. I cannot recommend anyone close to you. Alternatively, you might try a phone call to Peter Hambilton (below) and see if he can listen to your symptoms and advise how the control panel should work.

Philip

http://www.friendlyhippo.co.uk/hymerdirect/


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## HikerG (Nov 20, 2009)

Just to update the readings of both batteries when tested with multimeter are as follows:

Vehicle battery off hookup 12.66v
Vehicle battery on hookup 12.66v
Leisure battery off hookup 13.48v
Leisure battery on hookup 13.83v

Seems the leisure battery is receiving charge from the hookup so assume the EBL is working. I might be going out tonight (leaving vehicle on site). I might disconnect from EHU and measure the leisure battery after 4 hours to see what it reads. 

Based on my experiences so far the thing I really want to test is whether the alternator is charging the leisure battery and vehicle battery OK since the problem I experienced was at the end of a drive. I've never used the fridge on 12v until last night and then only when the engine was running. The two nights wild camping I did observe the battery 2 reading drop to about 12v but it never went into the red. Then after the drive I get the red warning light, dim interior lights and the step would not work. 

Whilst off hookup just now I also operated the step which has a much greater impact on the drain than the interior lights all on (as I would expect). I hardly use the step though as I'm tall and can get in quicker without it. 

If anyone can tell me how to test the charging circuit of the alternater would appreciate it. 

Thanks

Gary


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

All batteries are fully charged and your hook up is charging the leisure battery, it may also charge the vehicle battery when the leisure battery is fully topped or you may need to switch it to do that. It all looks OK, Alan.


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## JeanLuc (Jan 13, 2007)

Once the leisure battery has been discharged (I mean pretty low, not just a bit drained) and assuming you are not on hook-up of course, fire up the engine and after a couple of minutes, see what charging current the right-hand dial is showing. It should be right over on the needle stop at the edge of the green segment.

If this is not the case, get your multi-meter and see what voltage there is across the leisure battery terminals. It should be above 13 volts.

By the way, when on hook-up, the Elektroblock (assuming yours works the same as an EBL99) has three charging stages.
Stage 1: Current is 18 amps and voltage rises progressively to 14.3V
Stage 2: Current falls back progressively as battery becomes fully charged whilst voltage stays at 14.3V.
Stage 3: Voltage falls to 13.8V and current flow is negligible (that is why the right-hand meter shows the centre zero position for a fully charged battery).

Stage 3 is simply a float-charge to keep the battery topped up.

If the EBL battery type selector switch is set to Gel (Blei-Gel) stage 2 lasts for 8 hours; if set to lead-acid (blei-säure) it lasts for 1 hour (gels take a lot longer to charge).

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the maximum charging current for your EBL is 15 amps rather than the 18 amps quoted above for an EBL99. Not material though in terms of the explanation.

Of course, the EBL charging regime does not come into play when charging from the alternator. You simply get what the alternator controller will pass to the leisure battery, and since most vans have pretty decent alternator, the initial charging current can be quite high.

Philip


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## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

Gary.

Right, to test the alternator for output. (Quick & dirty test) Connect your new multimeter across the vehicle battery the same way you did when checking the battery voltage. Check the leads aren't going to snagged on any moving parts & start the engine, or have your helper do it.

The reading you took at 12.6 volts should rise to above 14 V Typically 14.2 to 14.4 when the engine's running. 

You might want to find a helper to raise the engine rpm's above idle. Depending on battery state or/& other loads on the alternator you may not get the full regulated output from the alty until the engine's above idle rpm.

Outwardly your battery voltages look OK. Does the engine crank well on the starter ? IE does it crank & start with enthusiasm or is it struggling ?

D.


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## HikerG (Nov 20, 2009)

Hi again,

Ok well following on from last reply I can confirm that at all times in the 5 days I've owned vehicle the starter battery has seemed fine. Cranks engine well and no sign of labouring. Will test alternator as described in morning when light. 

After returning from 4 hours out with friends decided to measure leisure battery again. Bearing in mind that I had removed EHU cable, had no lights on and no drain on the 12v that I can think of the reading was down from 13.48v when tested off hookup last time to 12.76v tonight. I know nothing about car electrics but this seems a sharp drop in 4 hours if no 12v devices were being used. Now on EHU again cannot see the needle on right dial moving above zero which perhaps indicates it thinks leisure battery does not need charge. 

So is the drop noted relevant? Does it indicate a fault with either the battery (not holding charge) or perhaps something draining it that I've not considered. Can I even rely on the readings to be really accurate on a cheap digital multimeter from Maplins?

Gary


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

12.76V represents a fully charged battery as was shown in my earlier link.

13.8V may also represent a fully charged battery on charge.

The effect is caused by surface charge and if you measured the voltage at intervals after taken off charge it will always go from one to the other as the surface charge either dissipates or charges the battery a little more.

This from my link:










Your cheap meter will be good enough to show that.


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## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

> So is the drop noted relevant? Does it indicate a fault with either the battery (not holding charge) or perhaps something draining it that I've not considered


As Frank states, your observations are entirely normal & to be expected. I would go as far as to say encouraging.

Let us know when you've carried out the quick test on the alternator. Something else to do once you've measured the voltage across the battery with the engine running, is to apply more load to the alternator. Switch on anything you can on the base vehicle electrics. Lights, blower, heated screen etc & check the voltage across the battery again. With a big load the alternator may not be able to get the voltage above that of the battery at idle. This is OK but it should very quickly rise to above 14V when you raise the engine rpm's to approx 1500.

If you're getting the expected voltage at the battery during this test then I'd stick my neck out & say the alternators probably OK. If the vehicle battery is "holding" a charge IE is'nt going flat whilst not in use & going by the voltages you've provided that sound healthy too.

Do the above check on the Hab battery after it has been rested to see if the charger's actually doing what it's meant to.

Going back to your OP. I'm assuming that your fridge only operates on 12V whilst the vehicle is running. IE directly from the alternator through the consumer unit. IE it's not possible to run the fridge directly from the Hab battery ? If this was the case it would drain the battery in short order.

Let us know what you find.

I have to say I'm not familiar with your control panel or the van's electrics. What we're carrying out are some elementary checks to establish if the base electrics are doing their job. There could be a handfull of things causing your problem.

Keep going, you'll get there eventually.

D.


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## snailsontour (May 1, 2005)

I think it was mentioned by Gerald but running the fridge on 12v takes a large amount of the available charging rate, i.e. there isn't much left to charge the leisure battery.

On shortish trips we don't bother running the fridge, in order to maximise battery charging - particularly in this weather!
Bob


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## Westkirby01 (Jan 25, 2009)

*Check battery*

Hi there

Why don't go to your nearest garage and ask them to check the battery? A multimeter costs money and a check usually doesn't.

It does sound from your description that one of the battery cell's is kaput.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

snailsontour said:


> I think it was mentioned by Gerald but running the fridge on 12v takes a large amount of the available charging rate, i.e. there isn't much left to charge the leisure battery.
> 
> On shortish trips we don't bother running the fridge, in order to maximise battery charging - particularly in this weather!
> Bob


With a 90A or more alternator the 8A or so that the fridge uses shouldn't bother it. You do need to have an efficient split charger though and also remember that it takes quite a while to recharge a leisure battery even at the 30A that most split charge relays can handle.



Westkirby01 said:


> Hi there
> 
> Why don't go to your nearest garage and ask them to check the battery? A multimeter costs money and a check usually doesn't.
> 
> It does sound from your description that one of the battery cell's is kaput.


I don't think a bad cell is your problem in fact I don't think your battery is faulty at all.


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## Spooky_b329 (Jan 24, 2009)

A free garage check will often result in having to buy a new battery, whether needed or not! A multimeter is pretty cheap compared to a new battery.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

HikerG

Having just re-read your post of 25.02.10 at 1429 and the symptoms described, it sounds like the same problem i had on my Arto, also Ducato 2.8

Off hook-up, no reading on BAtt 1. Engine running no positive charge on Ammeter.

Fault was blown main fuse which is a bolt-on fuse located in the fusebox located on top of the positive terminal of the engine battery (see Ducato Manual p139 fig34 and list of fuses on p142.

If it is the same problem it is fuse F71 (CFO Protection) which the manual says is 80A but I think maybe 125A The Fiat part no. is 10402390 - not sure about the 9 - it might be an 8.

On my Arto the fusebox was difficult to access, which is maybe why the fault had not been found/cured by previous owner.

If this fuse is blown and replaced you may find there is nothing wrong elsewhere. This was the case in my MH as no charge was getting to the leisure batteries from the alternator.

Good Luck

Geoff


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## HikerG (Nov 20, 2009)

Hi,

Thanks for the latest replies. Will try and do some more testing this week. I was away at the weekend, a friend looked after the motorhome. The leisure battery seemed to hold its charge OK so I don't think the battery is duff. 

I would like to check that the alternator is giving charge to the leisure battery as this could explain my problem. I will not run the fridge on 12v any more until I have confidence in what the problem was. It may be that the single 75Ah leisure battery is not enough to wild camp for 2 nights but I've read reports on here about people wild camping for 4 nights and I know they would have been using gadgets with greater electrical draw than me. I was working during the day for both wild camp days and in the evening only had some lights on, no inverters or TV, gadgets etc. 

If the previous owner used campsites all the time then they would never even know there was a problem (if indeed there is). At least I'm now happy that I've ruled out a few things. Once I've been able to determine whether the alternator is charing leisure battery I will know whether I have a blown fuse or other fault or whether I just need to buy 2 higher power leisure batteries for the times I wild camp.

I will post an update here once I get the chance to do some tests. 

Gary


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Gary, 75ah is not a lot. You can do a rough calculation of your power consumption quite easily.

You need to know the power consumption of all the electrical items you are using and estimate how long you use them for.

Watts = Volts x Amps, you want the answer in amps per hour so you can tell how much battery capacity you are using. All your lights etc. are 12v so you need to check the wattage, estimate the time you use them for and work that back into amps consumed per hour, giving you your amp/hour consumption and allowing you to know whether you have sufficient battery capacity to do what yo want to do. A single 75 ah battery is not likely to be sufficient for two nights without charging in between. Having half a dozen power hungry lights (led's will be ok) on they will flatten the battery in two nights.

That is all very approximate, you can calculate it properly, Alan


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

Hi again, Gary

When we first bought our first (2nd hand) van, the previous owner had replaced the hab battery and the water pump, because the pump wouldn't work sometimes. I discovered that the hab battery wasn't charging off the alternator. The charge feed from the alternator was fed through a fuse dangling in the engine compartment, and one of the wires had dropped off. I replaced that, and everything was OK again.

Check the voltage across your hab battery, then start the engine, and check again. You should see an increase in voltage across the battery terminals, whatever its state and whatever else you have switched on.

On our old van, we had 1 X 85Ahr battery, which would just about last two nights with a little light, little or no TV, and water pump for showers and washing up and cooking. We now have 2 X 110Ahr habitation batteries and a stonking great solar panel on the roof. Staying off hookup for a week at a time (and probably longer) is a breeze in the spring / summer / autumn, including all the satellite TV and laptop charging through an inverter and whatever else we want to do  

Owning a motorhome is just so much fun, isn't it? :wink:

Gerald


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## HikerG (Nov 20, 2009)

Hi,

Just a quick update, I think I've sorted the problem. I've marked with a red line 4 places where I found a fuse. The 2 white fuse holders contained old fashioned glass fuses that seemed ok. There are also 2 blade fuses marked, one green 30A and a purple colour one that I think was rated at 3A. 

The green 30A fuse looked odd. I could not tell if the wire was broken, the shape of the wire just was not uniform at all. Anyway with this fuse in place I tested the leisure battery and got the following readings:

Leisure battery engine off - 13.8v
Leisure battery engine on - 13.8v

I then changed this fuse for a new 30A and got the following:

Leisure battery engine off - 13.8v
Leisure battery engine on - 14.47v

I'm hoping this was the problem, perhaps someone with better car electrics knowledge than me can confirm. 

I was curious what the box of tricks at the back of the image was so googled what it said on the lid. Apparently it's a Bitron Video 2044029 which is supposed to help with cold starting.....learning something new every day!

Thanks to everyone who posted advice and suggestions. I was going to take the motorhome to a specialist but the one I called in Kent could not do it until the end of March!

Gary


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## Mistemina (Jan 6, 2010)

I have the same control panel .The third switch from the left is for the outside light. You can check if it is working by opening the locker adjacent to it.


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