# Cam Belt Disaster!



## HarleyBiker

Recently retired, my wife and I planned our first trip lasting several weeks in our 8 year old Ducato based van we have enjoyed for the past five years.

In preparing for the trip we decided to have the cambelt changed in May this year even though the van had covered only 36000 miles since new. We chose a locally based cam belt specialist to do the work for which he charged £225 with one years guarantee.

Yesterday morning, 20 miles south of Inverness and 625 miles from home, you guessed it, the cam belt broke. We were suddenly stuck occupying the inside lane of the 70 mph A9 dual carriageway, without the luxury of a hard shoulder. 

We took all the basic safety steps and phoned the RAC to request urgent assistance in view of our precarious position.

On taking our details the lady at the RAC advised that we were not covered for this vehicle due to its size and weight. I informed her that we had been members of their Arrival scheme through the Camping and Caravan Club since 2003. 

I was advised that this endorsement exempting the weight and size restrictions, was not noted on her computer even though it is clearly marked on my membership card. After about 10 minutes on hold she acknowledged that this was the case and that we would be covered!

After about an hour an Inverness based garage turned up in a small 4x4 only to confirm that the cam belt had gone and that I would need a substantial truck to expedite our recovery. He towed us a few hundred yards to a layby.

And there we waited a total of five hours whilst the RAC found a recovery firm with a suitable vehicle.

Eventually one turned up to transport our van back to Kent for repair. We set off on a 625 mile journey with our two dogs in our little Kia Picanto that we tow on a A frame.

Today our van was examined by our chosen repairer and the internal damage is catastrophic. The pistons are destroyed as are the valve guides. Two of the injectors are also damaged. The repair will cost several thousand pounds.

The most devastating news though is that the broken cam belt is the original as fitted to the vehicle when new! I had been charged £225 for absolutely nothing. The work had not been done as specified, charged, receipted and warranted!

My initial verbal approach by telephone to the Cam Belt specialist proved unhelpful, although at that time I was not aware that the belt had not been changed, simply that it had failed.

Whilst I contemplate several courses of action, I would be interested to hear in the meantime any advice or comments from forum readers.

Regards,

John.


----------



## KSH

The most important thing it to KEEP all parts, don't let the garage dispose of them


----------



## Jezport

I would give the repairer the option to pay for all damage plus losses and refund the money paid for the cambelt.

Did you pay by credit card? If so contact them and claim for breach of contract through the terms of the consumer credit act 1974.


----------



## grenwelly

Sorry to hear of your disaster
Get in touch with your local Trading Standards for some advice as soon as you can


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

In a word. Report to trading standards and any association that the "specialist" belongs to.
Then seek a solicitor asap.

Do not use Donnslaw . I am having to push them all the way.

dave p


----------



## JockandRita

Gordon (bl##dy) Bennett.

Hi John,

I am so sorry to hear of your plight, having been down the same route in southern France, but due to a scam engine fitted, with a new cambelt and cover fitted........wrongly.

I am assuming that you have a receipt for new cambelt, including parts and labour. 
This will be significant when pursuing a claim against the repairer, for the cost of repairs/replacement of your engine, and all associated costs regarding recovery, transportation, loss of holiday, etc, etc.

Whatever you do, you must retain the original belt, damaged cam followers, broken valves, and damaged piston heads, etc, etc.

All the very best,

Jock.


----------



## ramblingon

Get an RAC inspection & written report with a view to a court appearance expert witness thingy. ( Leverage)

If the garage hasn't got money no point in taking them to law, you will only loose out.

If they have insurance this job will not be covered as it is fraud.

Try and get them to fix it gratis.


Thieving barstewards!


----------



## gaspode

Sorry to hear of your problems.

If all is as you say, this looks like a simple case of fraud, my personal advice would be:

1) Obtain a written report from your chosen repairers stating unambiguously that they consider the broken belt to be the original article as fitted by Fiat when new.
2) Ensure that all the damaged parts are photographed and retained by the repairer.
3) Ask the AA or RAC to view the damaged parts and provide you with a written report on the cause of the failure and age of the timing belt.
4) Write to the original garage asking for full reimbursement of all your costs for correcting the damage resulting from their fraudulent actions. Include a substantial (but not excessive) amount to cover your consequential losses (including loss of use, loss of holiday, hire costs etc.). Ask them to pay up within 14 days or face legal action.
5) File a claim for damages at your local small claims court.
6) Write to your local newspaper and ask them to investigate the incident for you.

If you are confident of your evidence and can afford the costs it may be advisable to appoint a solicitor to act on your behalf, you should be able to claim the cost back from the garage if you win the action.


----------



## JockandRita

gaspode said:


> Sorry to hear of your problems.
> 
> If all is as you say, this looks like a simple case of fraud, my personal advice would be:
> 
> 1) Obtain a written report from your chosen repairers stating unambiguously that they consider the broken belt to be the original article as fitted by Fiat when new.
> 2) Ensure that all the damaged parts are photographed and retained by the repairer.
> 3) Ask the AA or RAC to view the damaged parts and provide you with a written report on the cause of the failure and age of the timing belt.
> 4) Write to the original garage asking for full reimbursement of all your costs for correcting the damage resulting from their fraudulent actions. Include a substantial (but not excessive) amount to cover your consequential losses (including loss of use, loss of holiday, hire costs etc.). Ask them to pay up within 14 days or face legal action.
> 5) File a claim for damages at your local small claims court.
> 6) Write to your local newspaper and ask them to investigate the incident for you.
> 
> If you are confident of your evidence and can afford the costs it may be advisable to appoint a solicitor to act on your behalf, you should be able to claim the cost back from the garage if you win the action.


Yep Ken, that just about covers it all, and sounds good to me.

Good all round advice John.

Jock.


----------



## Codfinger

*Cam belt*

Sorry to hear of your disaster even tho you went out of your way to prevent this happening, hope you manage to get it sorted.

This is a good reason to to get any tradesmen or workshop/repairers recomended, no harm in asking on here I would have thought?


----------



## androidGB

From what you have said, this appears to be a clear case of fraud.

Think very carefully about legal action, and incurring additional costs however, as these guys could simply disappear and you will be left to cover all of the costs.

Try and find out more about the "cam belt specialists". How long have they been in business? Who are the directors?

If every thing is as you say, I can't see that naming them on here will prejudice your case. Another member may well have experience of dealing with this company. 

Andrew


----------



## some-where-in-oxford

androidGB said:


> From what you have said, this appears to be a clear case of fraud.
> 
> Think very carefully about legal action, and incurring additional costs however, as these guys could simply disappear and you will be left to cover all of the costs.
> 
> Try and find out more about the "cam belt specialists". How long have they been in business? Who are the directors?
> 
> If every thing is as you say, I can't see that naming them on here will prejudice your case. Another member may well have experience of dealing with this company.
> 
> Andrew


If the cambelt specialists are limited company, you could be wasting money on legal action.

I had a reconditioned engine fitted in an XJ6 by a company in London. On the way home the engine started to knock. After several months trying to get a refund through solicitors, it came to the point of taking them to court.

They then wound up the company, and started trading from same premises under a new name.

Solicitor told me not to waste any more money on it.

As already suggested, Trading Standards should be interested, they will be able to offer you all the advice on what you can do.

Good luck, hope it works out ok.


----------



## teemyob

*belt*

Geesus,

So very sorry to learn of your disaster.

Speechless, apart from 8astards.

TM

Actually, after reading the last two posts, I would add that even if the company was wound up by the directors. You could still take the Managing Director to court. Does not matter if his company is limited. You can still hold him accountable. Very difficult but it can be done.

A good while back, we loaned a customer of someone elses (not ours) a piece of machinery. Delivered free, loaned free, collected free. No money changed hands.

That business of mine was already suffering and I had no option but to liquidate it after pumping money in for years.

The 8itch sued my company for £17,500 for slipping on her own glass floor as a result of her negligence. On the day I closed the paperwork arrived from my liability insurers for me to sign. I signed it, much as I did not want her to get any money, simply because I wanted no more legal action after I shut shop.


----------



## TR5

A prime example of why you should purchase legal expenses insurance with your vehicle insurance!

You did buy legal expenses insurance, didn't you?


----------



## teemyob

*engine*



TR5 said:


> A prime example of why you should purchase legal expenses insurance with your vehicle insurance!
> 
> You did buy legal expenses insurance, didn't you?


Now there is a good point!

Maybe they have it?

TM


----------



## androidGB

TR5 said:


> A prime example of why you should purchase legal expenses insurance with your vehicle insurance!
> 
> You did buy legal expenses insurance, didn't you?


Yes a very good point. Certainly worth persuing if someone else is picking up the tab.

But I'd think very hard about going it alone. Wrongful trading or fraudulent trading are very difficult to prove, and there still is the question of whether the company/ directors have sufficient assets to meet the claim.

If you have legal expenses insurance, I guess the first thing they will check out is whether the company has 3rd party liability insurance.

If they do and you go it alone, that's who you'll be fighting.

Andrew


----------



## hymerbeliever

Terrible. I always worry about garages after having once had a main dealer car service where they didn't change but charged for the plugs (that I'd previously marked with felt tip).

I just had our Hymer serviced with a cambelt change and I marked all filters and the position of screws holding the airfilter and cambelt cover beforehand.

I'd certainly claim. It is very easy and inexpensive to submit a county court claim yourself for values up to 5K, though you may find a solicitor willing to handle the matter on a no win no fee / CFA. As stated above you'll need an expert opinion on the age of the belt, proof that you paid for the belt to be changed, and repair estimates.

You'll need to write to the garage (by recorded letter) beforehand telling them your proposed course of action and giving them a period of eg 14 days to settle or repair the damage. Then issue a claim if you hear nothing. I doubt they'll even turn up or they'll settle once the writ is served. Oh, and claim everything inc opinion / evidence costs.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

ps details on how to submit a claim are here: http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdot...ype=RESOURCES&itemId=1073791104&r.t=RESOURCES


----------



## wakk44

B****y hell, 8O 8O 8O 

What an unbelievable story and what a disgraceful garage you chose to change the cam belt.(allegedly)

I had mine done a few months back by a reputable local garage who insisted on showing me the old belt and tensioners(which they also changed).

The OP has been prudent in changing the cam belt to prevent any serious engine damage only for the engine to be wrecked because of a fraudulent garage who do not deserve to be in business. 

I hope you get full compensation and good luck with your claim against them.


----------



## erneboy

I am very sorry to hear your tale. There are some complete rogues out there, how is an unsuspecting public to know? Good luck getting it sorted out and paid for, Alan.


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

Lesson for us all. we cannot see inside the engines.

When my cam belt is changed I shall request the old one.

Dave p


----------



## inkey-2008

Even if they show you a bucket of parts you would be hard pressed to tell if they came out of your engine. Stick with somebody you know.

Andy


----------



## SpeedyDux

There are indeed rogues out there. A company I once worked for had a fleet of company cars that were traded in at 3 years or 80,000 miles whichever came first. They had a contract with a franchised dealer to service all the cars per manufacturer's recommended schedule. 

To cut a long story short, eventually they discovered that all their company cars had been driven for 3 years / 80,000 miles without any actual servicing. Not even an oil change. Nada. The crooked franchised dealer had simply been ripping off its account customers for services not carried out, because they knew that the company car drivers never opened the bonnet except to top up with screenwash; the cars were robust enough not to break down; and would not require MOTs until traded in. Shocking. 8O 

SD


----------



## Tklybeard

When I had the cam belt and tentioners changed in Feb I saw the old ones and luckly enough saw the new ones fitted to the engine as I happened to arrive before it was reassembled


----------



## robrace

*original cam belt.*

Can you 100%prove that the belt is the original?If not you hav'nt a leg to stand on!I am sorry but when i was in the Chamber of Trade we had loads of complaints about a Trader as had Trading Standards.They stated that although they were aware that the rogue trader was charging for parts and work that was'nt being carried out it was impossible to prove.they eventually submitted work to the Trader with marked parts.They were then able to prove that there was dubious practices.They pleaded guilty to 30 odd charges and were fined !£13000!That was about 10years ago and they are still in business and still rippingoff customers.Having taken successfully a Dealer to court for knowingly selling us a stolen motorhome and winning our case we have never received a penny!We tried everything inc Bailiffs,charging order on his house but to no avail.If someone does'nt want to pay they can get away with it.If any debt collectors want to buy a £13k debt for next to nothing!!


----------



## HarleyBiker

Thank you all for your replies to my post. 

I went to see the repairer today who gave me the broken cam belt and confirmed (verbally) that the belt was 'almost certainly' the original and definitely not only three months old.

Following one of your suggestions I contacted Trading Standards today and was frankly very disappointed. Having explained the situation as I did in my post, it appears that their role is simply to advise what I should do, rather than a more proactive role that I niavely expected.

She told me that I could persue action through the small claims court but couldn't tell me what costs I might incur. She did say though that if I lose I would have to pay his costs in defending the action.

She also advised that in his defence he could say that he should have had the opportunity to fix it and that such a defence would most probably be accepted by the court. Bearing in mind that the van broke down 700 miles from his workshop I would have to arrange to have the vehicle taken to him, unless I succeed in my action and he pays up of course.

Whilst I have roadside recovery from the RAC, they presumably will only recover once. If he was unable or unwilliing to carry out the repair, I would have the problem of moving a 5 ton disabled vehicle to another repairer. There is also the matter of time and my lack of confidence in such an outfit as is prepared to charge for work not carried out.

I pointed our to the adviser that, this was not a case of a failed repair where I would naturally return for the work to be put right, but that in this case he 'fraudulently' charged me for work that he did not do. Her response was that whether he was 'guilty' or not did not matter and this would not alter the outcome for me!

If I do take legal action against him, my case rests wholly on the strength of evidence from the repairer and his willingness to present this to the court many miles away from home. Whilst he is confident in expressing his opinion when discussing this with him informally, if he is less so on the day, or the court is not persuaded by his professional opinion, I lose. If I win and he does not have any assets, I still lose! 

I should mention that whilst he has a website in which he claims to be a VOSA approved MOT inspector, he is a sole trader operating out of what I suspect is a rented unit on a small industrial unit.

I will contact the RAC to see if there is a low cost or free service of examination and expert witness, but as is the case with appointing a legal representative I am becomming increasingly wary of gambling more money at such poor odds.

I hadn't thought about legal expenses cover through my insurance. I will look into this.

I am wary of naming him on a public forum, certainly at this stage but if anyone is considering using a 'cam belt specialist' in east Kent, PM me and I will confirm whether I have had dealings with them.

Thank you for your suggestions and sympathy so far. I will keep you posted!

The one piece of good news is that we are expecting to get the van back on Saturday, so if we can afford some fuel, we can be on our way again! I need a holiday!

Regards,

John.


----------



## gaspode

Hi HarleyBiker

In my opinion, without a written statement from the repairer (and preferably confirmation from another "expert") that the failed cambelt was definitely of considerable age you have no case so would be ill advised to take any legal action.


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

The original specialist should have an invoice for the belt he fitted.

dave p


----------



## annetony

I am so sorry to hear about your trouble with the rogue Garage, 

We had a problem with our Garage that failed the van on some welding for the MOT, so Tony told them to do it, picked the van up and when Tony checked underneath they had welded one side and put some filler in the other--we wont be using them again--and ours was trivial towards what happened to you 


I think they should have to pay for the damage and refund you the original money they ripped you off for 

If you are not covered for legal expenses with your vehicle insurance--check with you house insurance, sometimes you are covered there 

Good Luck and I hope you soon get it sorted to your satisfaction 

Anne


----------



## wakk44

I think the important fact is that the ''rogue'' garage should have been given the opportunity to make good the damage caused by the cam belt failure.

I appreciate that logistically it would have been difficult considering the distance involved,nevertheless he should have been given the chance to see his response.

By using a different repairer the chance of a successful action in the small claims court has been compromised in my opinion.


----------



## erneboy

My take on this is slightly different.

Leave aside for the moment whether or not this specialist actually did fit a new belt and all the associated problems of proof etc. if you suspect he didn't.

The van went to this garage to have a new cam belt fitted. The cam belt subsequently failed immediately afterwards. Obviously the job was not done properly and the repair is up to them. I am afraid they should have been allowed the chance to put it right. If you chose to go else where for the repair that was your decision and I am very much afraid that by not giving the first garage the chance to put things right you have severely weakened your case.

Just my opinion and I am sorry that it is unhelpful in your current circumstances, Alan.

Edit: Wakk44, I must have been writing my post as you posted yours. Snap!


----------



## HarleyBiker

I totally apreciate that my decision not to return to the original specialist compromises my case in court. However, peace of mind is also important to me and the cost of repair may well be the price I have to pay for this.

If it had appeared to me that the work *had *been carried out but complications had lead to premature failure, I would not hesitate to go back. But in this instance it appeared to me that the cam belt specialist was dishonest in the extreme in charging for work that had blatantly not been carried out.

In these circumstances I would have been reluctant to leave such a valuable asset in his care. He could have held on the (partly dismantled) vehicle for an unreasonable amount of time, bodged the repair or exacerbated the problem through further 'dodgy' dealings.

On balance, whilst I am now angry, frustrated, cynical and somewhat poorer for the experience I was heartened to hear from the repairer today that the van is fixed and ready for collection tomorrow, repaired in just three days.

Sadly, I have had several disapppointing experiences over the years dealing plumbers, electricians, plasterers, garages etc. and this unfortunately leaves me a little bitter.

The moral of the story is if you happen to have a special relationship with a tradesman you can trust, who is prepared to do a fair days work for a fair price treat him like your brother (or better)!


----------



## erneboy

I agree entirely HarleyBiker, and in your situation I think I would have done exactly the same. I could not have trusted the original garage either. It just makes getting any sort of recompense much more difficult. 

Having worked on vehicles all my life I see bad and incompetent workmanship all the time. Fraudulent bills are all too common. I always want to see what people are doing to my van, with justification I feel, as I often need to do the work over again or finish it properly. The worst aspect of that is that it is often the places with the slick looking business premises which do the worst work, so you can't tell unless you can see, which understandably they don't like. The good ones don't like it because you are checking up on them and the bad ones don't like it because you may prevent them cutting corners or point it out when they go wrong.

Do you mind telling us the cost of the repair, just out of interest, Alan.


----------



## HarleyBiker

Thanks Alan. I felt justified in my decision today when I picked up the van, all work completed in just three days.

After originally quoting for a recon engine (Fiat 2.8JTD) all in supplied and fitted, the poor access to tje engine compartment of my Hymer made this uneconomic and unnecessary. The head was removed and damage was found to the valves, 2 fuel injectors, a one piston. The block remained in situ whilst the piston(s) were removed and replaced with new rings and big end shells. A new cam belt kit was fitted (obviously) together with the fan belt which had also broke being adjacient to the cam belt. The water pump was inspected but found to be ok and refitted.

Total cost £1850. Painfull, but is is good to look out the window as I write and see the van back on our own drive and waiting for the off!

John.


----------



## erneboy

It could have been worse John. Good luck with it, Alan.


----------



## davesport

John I'm glad to hear that your sorted. I haven't had time to read the complete thread, but that one line caught my eye.



> together with the fan belt which had also broke being adjacient to the cam belt.


Alternator or AC belt snapping can if you're unlucky get fouled in the lower toothed pulley for the timing belt :evil: I've seen the consequences. Thinking out loud, I was wondering if this was a possibility in your case.

D.


----------



## HarleyBiker

I understand it is possible in either order. e.g. broken fan belt fouling the cam belt or vice versa. In my case the cam belt was broken.

In any event, the broken cam belt appeared to be original rather than a replacement I have paid for three months earlier!

John.


----------



## grenwelly

I can understand why you don't want to name the culprits.
It would be good to name whoever managed to get you going again in three days though.
Glad you are mobile again


----------



## artona

Send the original garage an invoice and see what happens. Then decided how to react. I am sure they will ignore you but you never know

stew


----------



## JockandRita

davesport said:


> Alternator or AC belt snapping can if you're unlucky get fouled in the lower toothed pulley for the timing belt :evil: I've seen the consequences. Thinking out loud, I was wondering if this was a possibility in your case.
> 
> D.


That's what happened to ours, because matey had fitted the timing belt covers wrongly, and one half of the covers had been fraying the belt nearest to it, which snapped and went in to dislodge the cambelt.
The irony is that had he fitted the covers properly, we might never have known about the engine being an "insurance scam", for which the repairer eventually paid for, dearly .

*John*, I know that you are substantially out of pocket, but you are now able to plan ahead and hopefully put this one behind you .

Best regards,

Jock.


----------



## SaddleTramp

One thing in your favour is that you say the garage is a sole trader, If that is the case he will not want any action to be taken against him.

I would request a report from the garage that did your repair, send it to him stating that you had the repair done 700 miles from home as it was going to cost almost that amount to transport it back and therefore would have cost him more money and would also have taken longer and you were on your holidays.
The possibility is that he instructed an employee to fit a cambelt and because of the difficulty in a MH the employee may be the guilty party.

For major work (I class major work as anything that can result in serious problems) ie Mechanical, I always use main dealers as they have far more to lose if work is carried out incorrectly, it may cost more initially but as in your case could save a fortune, I always change cambelts at no more than 25000 miles.


----------



## pneumatician

*Cambelt*

Where ever possible I am a confirmed DIY man.

I don't feel comfortable having work carried out by others unless its essential due to lack of specialist tools etc.

When I am forced into this situation I check, as far as possible that the work has been carried out, re-torqueing fasteners etc.

I have used the same garage for the last six years for both our cars and Motorhomes.

Finally I hate Cambelts having had failures when driving company cars.

Since retiring I have lost touch with vehicle design but I am advised that several engine manufacturers are returning to chains as is my current Sprinter.

Steve


----------

