# Fuel Consumption and Biodiesel



## JohnDough (Mar 3, 2006)

I think it would be a good idea to get some feedback on these subjects from our members as with the prices going up all the time it would point would be owners and anyone changing their vehicle in the right direction.

From my own experience I run a 1.9TD Fiat and after covering 4500 miles this summer I reckon my van returned 24mpg which I thought was very low.

Any comments guyz??

BTW I have not had the b**ls to try biodiesel as there are so many variations of mixes B5.B40,B100 etc. and although they say it will not do any damage I would like more assurances on that point.

Anyone using it here???


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

Id like to try it to. From what I read up to B25 (25%) is said to be perfectly fine in all engines. So far I have had no luck in getting any definitive answer from Fiat on using B100. (100%) Its only the older rubber hoses and seals that cause an issue for any surpless methanol in the fuel. Thereas anothe rethread running on this board on BioDesel if you search for that.

If you get any response from Fiat let us know.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi John

I don't think 24mpg is particularly bad with a 1.9 if it's not turbo..

I won't knowingly use bio for the following reason (although I believe it is now added to all diesel in France..)



> Cummins neither approves or disapproves of the use of biodiesel fuel. Cummins is not in a position
> to evaluate the many variations of biodiesel fuels or other additives, and their long-term effects on
> performance, durability or emissions compliance of Cummins products. The use of biodiesel fuel
> does not affect Cummins Material and Workmanship warranty. Failures caused by the use of
> ...


A full write up can be read here .. PDF doc

Cummins and Bio diesel


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

I understand the Cummins statement on the grounds of liability, but ethicaly, moraly, scientificaly even its just plain wrong.

It's a very good reason not to buy a Cummins and to buy VAG Deisel or alternative vehicle with an engine that activly is supporting greener fuels.

Sorry for the rant....


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*24 MPG*

Hi

I would say 24 mpg is a little bit on the low side but I am assuming your CI is a "Luton" type. How do you drive it? Do you give it some pan handle or take it steady?

My previous van 2.2 Peugeot HDI yielded just under 29 mpg on a 2000 mile trip.

The present 2.8 Ducato JTD is yielding just under 25 mpg.

For motorways, I do about 60/62/65 mph.

What does the rev counter indicate at say 60 mph?

Rapide561


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

Due to my burning desire to be as green as I can I have asked Fiat to advise what BioDiesel they support in their engines.

Ill post an answer in this thread when I have a response......


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## JohnDough (Mar 3, 2006)

*Re: 24 MPG*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> I would say 24 mpg is a little bit on the low side but I am assuming your CI is a "Luton" type. How do you drive it? Do you give it some pan handle or take it steady?
> 
> ...


Hi Yes it is a Luton body with a roof box on the back and on the m/ways have to keep her up to about 70-75 in France with all those bloody hills but steady at 60-65 in Belgium ,no rev counter on board my model but your figures of 25mpg for a 2.8 are impressive .

My payload was 3 adults bike rack and a full tank of water which I know is quite heavy also loads of baked beans and 10 kilos of spuds so my 24ish is not to bad after all.


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## JohnDough (Mar 3, 2006)

davebl said:


> Due to my burning desire to be as green as I can I have asked Fiat to advise what BioDiesel they support in their engines.
> 
> Ill post an answer in this thread when I have a response......


Nice one Dave but bet they will skirt the issue!!!


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

We will have to wait and see....either they will or they wont !


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

I noticed that the price is not competitive, no manufacturer has approved it for their engines yet, as far as i can be aware.Everyone is waiting for proof that the fuel does work ok over a period of say 40/60k.miles.A little like LPG it was very cheap now reasonably cheap soon will be cheaper than.but performance is poorer.top grade fuel gives top grade performance, but only on top grade engines.a modern diesel engine should work ok, but think the larger lorry size will cope better.


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

It isnt that competitive comercialy unless you order in bulk, I think theres a company in Dorset selling bulk that is OK.

You can always make your own which is far less expensive....

Also, theres always the trick of mixing, Rape seed oil, about 5% Petrol, 10% Kero and a few other ingredients which is said to work fine.

Not that I remember it of course, but in the late 40's I am told concoctions like this were used in Diesel engines. Any one remember this going on ?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Fiat will say up to a 5% biodiesel blend (B5) to EN590 is warranted.

A well-balanced reference to the issue is:
http://www.greengoldbiodiesel.co.uk/whichbiodieselblendshouldyouuse.htm

Peugeot/Citroen is more proactive on biofuel development, for example see here:
http://www.sustainability.psa-peugeot-citroen.com/en/realisation.php?niv1=4&niv2=42&niv3=2&id=1917

But the truest words are at the bottom left of that page:
"The development in Europe .... will depend in particular on the tax regimes applied to biofuels in each country."

Dave


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## JohnDough (Mar 3, 2006)

DABurleigh said:


> Fiat will say up to a 5% biodiesel blend (B5) to EN590 is warranted.
> 
> A well-balanced reference to the issue is:
> http://www.greengoldbiodiesel.co.uk/whichbiodieselblendshouldyouuse.htm
> ...


Excellent articles on the subject Dave .As PSA are using a B30 mix in there fleet surely their engine ,injectors pump etc. is the same as Fiats so why are they only saying B5 mix ,a little confusing for us MH users. :? :?


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## 97976 (Mar 4, 2006)

I think that I remember reading that VW recommend the use of 100% biodiesel in the T5 engine. Does anyone have any more info on this please?


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

davebl said:


> I understand the Cummins statement on the grounds of liability, but ethicaly, moraly, scientificaly even its just plain wrong.


Hi,

I can understand your desire to be as "green" as possible, I feel the same way. But Bio Diesel might not be exactly the best way to achieve this:

Problem is that in our latitudes the sun only provides a certain, limited supply of energy. So when growing the crops for Bio Diesel the farmer has to apply artificial fertilizers. Producing them costs _lots of energy_. He will have to drive with his tractor over the fields to seed, fertilize and finally harvest the crops. That needs energy. Then the crops have to be refined in an energy-consuming process. All in all it is very doubtful that by using "Bio Diesel" you ever reach break even point, so in the end _more conventional, fossile fuel will be burnt_ than when directly using conventional Diesel!

Sorry, but (at least in our latitudes, as said) selling Bio Diesel is only a way of subsidizing agricultural industry, there are no environmental benefits from it.

That would completely change, of course, if we could produce Bio Fuel from _agricultural wastes_ from food crops. But we are not (yet) that far.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Excellent post, Gerhard. I'm not sure there are NO benefits, but your point is well made.

Weighing environmental pluses and minuses in a system of systems context is a discipline rarely followed by those who are impassioned that they are right and greener-than-thou.

Until this issue is gripped, and environmental issues placed on a sound scientific footing, well-intentioned people like davebl will continue to be left without sound guidance on how they can best do their bit. Worse than that, they will probably be commercially ripped off by being charged a premium to be conned into following a fashionable, but ultimately false, green path.

Dave


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

Hi Gerhard,

You are correct, also most methanol is produced from fossel fuels at this time so isnt that 'green'. Use of ethanol (produced from crops rather than wood or fossel fuels) would improve this situation but not many manufacturers use it.

If more waste oil could be used this would be a good way to improving the situation but this would not be sutainable for too long as vehicles use more oil that the waste from restruants can provide easily.

The use of Strait Vegitable Oil 'SVO' as it seems to be called with the sort of aditives Diesel Secret Energy propose may be a better plan.

Whichever, if there is the possibility of using less fosel fuels so much the better which was more what I was getting at.

Someone reported that in France they are using B5 or a BioDiesel mix in most fuel outlets, can anyone verify this ?

Dave


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Dave, I'm not sure what degre of verification you are looking for, but, yes! 

Just Google on biodiesel and France and you will see oodles of references to that effect.

Dave


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

I'm not sure there are NO benefits, but your point is well made. 

Weighing environmental pluses and minuses in a system of systems context is a discipline rarely followed by those who are impassioned that they are right and greener-than-thou. 

Until this issue is gripped, and environmental issues placed on a sound scientific footing, well-intentioned people like davebl will continue to be left without sound guidance on how they can best do their bit. Worse than that, they will probably be commercially ripped off by being charged a premium to be conned into following a fashionable, but ultimately false, green path.


The fact of the matter is there are benifits (there seem to be many, and a simple web search will show this but there is, as you say, a good deal of nonsense to sift through) and we can all make efforts now. I am certainly not that 'green' but where I can help I hope to do so.

The issue seems to be one of taxation and financial incentives to use 'greener' fuels, if there is a financial incentive then people quite naturaly will use such fuels more widely and also have less detremental impact on the environment. Some of this is achedemic of course since unless there is a big move towards such technoligies then the impact will not be that significant.

Back to my origional points, 1. What mix (B5, B30 etc) of BioDiesel can I run in my 2.8JTD ? (and my other vehicles for that matter) 2. How much does the fuel cost ?

Im not in to mixing the stuff up in my back garden or atleast untill such time as the revolution begins.....


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

Dave,

You are correct, I should have Googled France and BioDiesel first, at least this is a step in the right direction. I wish suppliers on our small island would follow suit, seems Tesco are doing their bit.

Best regards,


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Yes, Tesco is indeed your best bet with 150 locations selling 5% biodiesel at no premium, I understand, which is all you are warranted to run in a 2.8JTD.

Just don't drive out of your way to get to one! 

Dave


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

davebl said:


> You are correct, also most methanol is produced from fossel fuels at this time so isnt that 'green'. Use of ethanol (produced from crops rather than wood or fossel fuels) would improve this situation but not many manufacturers use it.


Hi Dave,

what I said about "Bio Diesel" is essentially also valid for Methanol or Ethanol, even if they are produced from crops and not from fossile fuels. Background is simply that in mid-European latitudes the average amount of solar energy the crop plants can collect during their growth period is simply not sufficient to justify this rather inefficient way of fuel production. This is of course totally different in countries closer to the equator, like Brasil, where methanol and/or ethanol already supply a substantial amount of automotive fuel.

There may be political (or scientific research) reasons to support bio fuels, but seen from a global environmental point of view there is simply (almost) no benefit. No matter whether you use Methanol, Ethanol, "Bio Diesel" or vegetable oils. There may however be _local environmental_ benefits due to reduced pollution in comparison to burning fossile fuels.

But, as said before, this would dramatically change if we could use wastes from crops that are grown for food production. Provided that a reasonably efficient technology to refine these wastes for fuel be developed.

So, there is potential in such technologies for the future and therefore it is definitely worthwile investing in research here. But right now you will not do anything environmentally beneficial if you pour any "Bio Diesel" or vegetable oil or anything like that into your tank.

BTW, the reason why Fiat (and all other manufacturers as well) is so strictly against alternative fuel especially for the latest generation of Diesel engines is very simple: These engines (Fiat calls them JTD, other brands have other names) have all in common that they are so-called "common-rail" engines which use an extremely high fuel injection pressure, up to 1600 bar in the latest generation. This high pressure injection is by itsself very beneficial to the environment, compared to older Diesel technologies, because it significantly increases energy efficiency and reduces pollution and noise levels. But, because of the high pressure, these engines are very sensitive against even the smallest traces of _water_ in the fuel. Small droplets of water, as they can always be found in form of an emulsion in bio fuels, would literally "detonate" into steam when being injected into the engine. Thus destroy the injectors in a very short time.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

Gerhard,

Another excelent post, thanks again.

Dave


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

davebl said:


> It's a very good reason not to buy a Cummins and to buy VAG Deisel or alternative vehicle with an engine that activly is supporting greener fuels.
> .


So, can I keep my Cummins now without being an environmental vandal ? 
I haven't slept for the past two nights worrying about it .. :roll:


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Hi Jim
I am keeping my monster Chevy mate :wink: :wink: :wink: and if the government ever stop stealing from us with mega fuel taxes then we might all decide to use Bio Fuels. I am sure that my Chevy will eat just about anything as it was designed as an agricultural engine :lol: :lol: 
I would like to see some investment in these alternative fuels but they would not make their 88 pence per litre if they invested in alternatives.......

Mr cynical
Keith


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

So, can I keep my Cummins now without being an environmental vandal ? 

The Comitte say no, sell it, buy a sand yacht and a tent


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Keith 

totally agree .. imvho, bio this bio that is just tinkering with the problem, when we can run on H2O the problem will be cracked :wink: but then they will tax it too :roll: 

Mr Cynical #2
Jim

:lol: :lol:


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

davebl said:


> So, can I keep my Cummins now without being an environmental vandal ?
> 
> The Comitte say no, sell it,


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

Well OK then, if you just eat veg, buy a SOG and wear sandels then you can keep it.....


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

davebl said:


> Well OK then, if you just eat veg, buy a SOG and wear sandels then you can keep it.....


Fair enuff, I wear sandals, don't need a SOG, (RVs don't need chemicals), but I'm NOT going vegie nor is George :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## 89358 (May 20, 2005)

Seemed to recall our Sevel based Mobilvetta 52 Coachbuilt 1.9TD did 22/24mpg on a steady 60mph accross to Italy 3 years back.

Just returned from Italy again on Sunday in the Duetto having been away for 3 weeks covering 3,230 miles down to Naples and back - running on 25% mix of Veg oil (SVO) or sunflower oil when we could not get Veg oil. Calculated average 35mpg - non Turbo 2.5di engine.

Why mix with Veg oil you might say? Well it's 50p per litre before tax, the clatter from the Ford engine is subdued, the engine revs freely and ticks over much steadier. No black smoke, and no diesel smell from exhaust!


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

running on 25% mix of Veg oil (SVO) or sunflower oil when we could not get Veg oil. Calculated average 35mpg - non Turbo 2.5di engine.

Jim, would this mix suit your Cummins and sandel's ?.....if it works ill try it in my Fiat....


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

*Fiat JTD Diesel Engines and BioDiesel mix*

Heres the response from Fiat.

Dear Dave Blackham,

Thank you for contacting the Fiat Information Centre.

A 5% mix of diesel and Bio diesel can be used in any of the Fiat Diesel engines. Any more than this mix would invalidate the warranty if there were a problem as a result of using more than 5% mix.

If you require further assistance or need to know the whereabouts of other authorised Fiat dealership please go to www.fiat.co.uk. Alternatively, please do not hesitate to contact the Information Centre on 00800 3428 0000. Office hours are Monday - Friday, 8am - 5pm. Any one of our Customer Service Representatives will be happy to assist with your enquiries.

Best regards,

Fiat Information Centre

======================================================================================

Original message follows:
>Dear Fiat,
>
>I am a Fiat Ducato Motorhome driver, myself and out group of friends would
>like advice on support for Biodeisel for existing Fiat engines and also your
>new range of vehicles that may be available form conversion for Motorhomes.
>
>In particular could you please advise if Biodeisel can be run in your 2.8
>JTD engine and other 2.0, 2,3 and other engines in your range. Also in what
>proportion. I.e. B25, B100 etc.
>
>Any other advice regarding green fuels would be welcome.
>
>I hope to publish your response so users can familiarise them selves with
>your produces and fuels.
>
>Many thanks for your help and advice.
>
>Dave Blackham
>


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## JohnDough (Mar 3, 2006)

Well done to Overdrive on his experiments with 25% mix BTW m8 did you fill up at pumps or mix it yourself and what mileage have you on your vehicle??

If only more stations would stock it more people would use it.

As for all the technical ho haw who cares if the engine only lasts 'till 120K instead of 200k we will reap the benefit of cheaper fuel for years as most of us will have changed our vehicles by the time the 200K mark comes or maybe we will be pushing up the daisies!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol:

BTW normal diesel in Tesco now only 66pence in Ireland so what are u waitng for guyz get that ferry and have a ball of a break!!!!


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## 101368 (Oct 12, 2006)

OverDrive said:


> Seemed to recall our Sevel based Mobilvetta 52 Coachbuilt 1.9TD did 22/24mpg on a steady 60mph accross to Italy 3 years back.
> 
> Just returned from Italy again on Sunday in the Duetto having been away for 3 weeks covering 3,230 miles down to Naples and back - running on 25% mix of Veg oil (SVO) or sunflower oil when we could not get Veg oil. Calculated average 35mpg - non Turbo 2.5di engine.
> 
> Why mix with Veg oil you might say? Well it's 50p per litre before tax, the clatter from the Ford engine is subdued, the engine revs freely and ticks over much steadier. No black smoke, and no diesel smell from exhaust!


Note that if you're driving in the uk that this is illegal unless you make arrangements to pay tax on the veg oil. Do that and it's uneconomic of course. Customs and excise have done people for it in the past.


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## JohnDough (Mar 3, 2006)

So always park and start up outside the chippie!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol:


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## 101600 (Oct 30, 2006)

I wonder what the emmisions test for your MOT would give if you were using the bio mix?

I hope that the govenment realises that this stuff is the future and helps with tax brakes etc to get a good network set up so we can all gain from it. my gues is that they cannot tax so much for a greener fuel so will have no ambitions to get us all using it.


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## boosters (Nov 10, 2006)

*Fuel Economy*

Ref peoples concern to bio diesel the other alternative is to have your engine remapped giving increase in hp and torque upto 35% and improvements in fuel economy by about 10%.The reason you can achieve this is because the vehicle manufacturer has to tune (map) the engine for the worst possible grade of fuel (NIGERIA etc).all ecus have the same software map when manufactured irrespective of what country they are sold in the world and are therefore tuned to run on poor quality fuel,by remapping you can take all the imperfections out of the map and tune the engine to run on good fuel giving you more power and improved fuel economy.If anybody would like more details on remapping please contact me.


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## Proff (Jul 22, 2005)

roboughton said:


> I wonder what the emmisions test for your MOT would give if you were using the bio mix?
> 
> My Emissions went down from 2.1 on the MOT issued 3 weeks before I bought my VWLT35 TDI 1997.
> to .7 8O 4000 miles and 12 months later after running on a 50/50 mix of diesel and svo.
> ...


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