# How are you sleeping?



## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

A few years ago we had a thread running regarding sleep and mainly lack of it! I know a number of you good folks also suffer as i do.

I have had chronic insomnia for years and tried everything: all the sleep hygiene techniques; all the prescription non addictive drugs; all the prescription addictive drugs that I was prepared to risk; over the counter remedies; CBT; Acupuncture; Hypnotherapy; alcohol; no alcohol; de caffeinated coffee; melatonin; anti histamines ...you name it, I have tried it and all with limited or zero results.

Recently I had a 5 month experiment with my Dr on trying various non addictive prescription drugs which act as anti histamines. I even had a couple of nurses recommend what they use to get their sleep patterns back after night shifts but they didn't work either. The Dr gave up in the end as neither of us could identify anything that would help.

Anyway, something where I am having some success now is using Sleep Reduction. In essence (and it sounds counter intuitive) I get more sleep by being in bed less, trying to sleep. By this I mean that I used to put the light out at 10.30 say and then get up at 8.00. Now I read until 11.00 and get up at 6.00. In many case I could nod back off at 6.00 but I force myself to get up thereby banking some tiredness for the next night.

In reality I now switch the light off earlier than 11 when I feel my eye lids drooping or my concentration on my kindle waning...sometimes as early as 10.15! In terms of the morning I never set an alarm so sometimes don't wake up by 6.00 and have been known to sleep as late as 6.30!!

I have found that I am now getting more sleep than I have had over the last 20 years or so plus I feel less tired during the day. I still drink de caff coffee and still take 50mg of Amitriptyline at 7.30 each night but am now getting more sleep than ever.

It might be worth considering and I'm happy to talk more about Sleep Reduction in my experience if anyone is interested.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I have never had any problems getting off to sleep at night unless something is bothering me or I have to work something out, my problem is getting back to sleep after going to the loo, I don't take any drugs which keep me awake, but not so long ago I stopped taking any which made me drowsy as I was nodding off during the day sometimes, they were also buggering up what bit of concentration I had, maybe it's an age thing with me.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I drop off at the due time about 11.30 OK but somehow wake again around 1.30 to 2.30. Then it's a struggle to drop off again. I do find a walk round the house can put me back to sleep again but invariably I take a leek and don't really want to get into that habit.

Ray.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Don't get me wrong. Some nights I struggle to get off still but they are few and far between now and usually when I too have something on my mind like Kev, churning around, I also still wake up 3-4-5 times during the night but now am finding that I can drop off easier then before and seldom lie there for hours. Prior to this, when I woke up - similar to you Ray - that was it for my nights sleep. So if that was at midnight for example, that was my lot for that night and I used to lie there for 8 hours trying not to disturb Mrs GMJ.

Fortunately I do not need to get up in the night for a pee (yet) so that helps.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I remember the thread well. I have been an insomniac for many years and, like Graham, have tried absolutely every remedy under the sun. None of them worked so I just resigned myself to being Mrs Tired and Grumpy  That very fact has helped  Just accept it. I read, too, about sleep reduction and I also read that humans would, naturally, only sleep for four hours before "going on patrol". This again has helped me to accept disturbed sleep. 
My sleep pattern is so much better now and I put it down to the above plus one other thing. Firstly I just get up at 3am or whatever so that I can restart the "go to sleep" pattern. I come down stairs, usually take a co codamol for my sciatica, read for fifteen minutes and then to back to bed. Usually I will go back to sleep for another three or four hours which is a major achievement! I read that laying in bed "trying to sleep" is counter productive as it teaches the body and mind that it is normal to be awake in bed and you need the opposite train of thought.

The next thing that has, I am sure, had a major effect is Magnesium. I have tried it before but with no success. The difference, this time, is that my Zinc levels have, at last, climbed into the normal range. Magnesium is well recognised as a help to insomnia but I believe that, as in most things, it needs other things to be in normal range in order to be absorbed properly by the body.

Given all the stress I am under at the moment I am still sleeping better than I would have done a year or so ago.

There is a new book out on sleep which has amazing reviews. I started to read it but had to stop because it lists all the negative effects on health that lack of sleep can cause  It is called "Why We Sleep" or similar.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

We are just a bunch of chemicals and they need to have some sort of balance hence the requirement for a balanced diet, so look there first, there may be foods you don't care for that supply the missing link

When I was doing the self-build I would often wake at 3-4 o clock and not even bother, I'd just get up and start researching how to do things, or go on youtube and I bet in the thread I did there are some very early posts as the thoughts came rushing in.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Quite right Kev. My doctor is less than interested and just wants to medicate the end result. He denies the results on lab tests because it means he has got to delve further. I am pretty sure that thyroid is involved but, as you know, they never want to get involved in that.


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## baldlygo (Sep 19, 2006)

My brother had sleeping problems for many years but eventually tracked his problem down to - coffee. He cut it out altogether and has not had a problem since.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I make a point of not consuming any caffeine after about 5pm. Wine yes as that runs straight through me.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

No none alcoholic drink after 4pm for me.

You need to lay down the law Pat, you have the right to proper medical care, liz got it so can you, she is much better on T3.


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## baldlygo (Sep 19, 2006)

raynipper said:


> I make a point of not consuming any caffeine after about 5pm. Wine yes as that runs straight through me.
> 
> Ray.


Cutting down coffee didn't make any difference he had to cut it out completely. I don't think he has had any bad nights due to alcohol consumption :happy7:


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

After my stroke in Jan 2020 it really messed with my metabolism for quite a while, arthritis flare ups, BP issues and something that I never had an issue with insomnia.

My arthritis consultant sorted it by suggesting Amitriptyline, only 20mg an hour before sleep time worked a treat as I regularly get 6-7 hours a night now.

Terry


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I stopped drinking caffeine altogether a while ago. On the very odd occasion when we are out, when I have a normal coffee now it doesn't make any difference to my sleep luckily.

Funny...on the booze i don't have any before 4pm!


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I tried Amitriptyline, very zombie like so stopped using it.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Doesn't have that effect on me Kev I was on it right at the start of my sleep issues and it worked for years albeit that over the years my dosage crept up from 20 to 70mg over a number of years! It was at that stage that I started my journey through everything known to man/woman regarding trying to find a solution.

Now I find myself back full circle and am on 50mg again but with the sleep reduction it seems to be working. I put the light off at 10.20 last night as my eye lids were falling. I woke up at 12.40. In the past I might as well have just got up then but last night, after tossing and turning for a while I dropped back off. the next thing I knew it was 6.10.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> I tried Amitriptyline, very zombie like so stopped using it.


Oh have you really stopped then? >

Terry


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Oi!!! bugger off and go write another book.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I wrote a bit of a complaint on the GP's feedback website about "old people" and people with anxiety issues being labelled as "the worried well". I always feel that when I go there no matter what the problem is.

Because I have had to fight tooth and nail to get the zinc deficiency taken seriously I am now worn out with the battle. When I get the energy I am going to get a private test of thyroid done and go to them with the evidence if that is what is going on. The last time I was in there with a repeat of my double vision it ended up being "due to stress". What a cop out. 

I take 10 mg of Amitriptyline before bed. I never have trouble dropping off so I don't know why I bother. I always wake up about 4 hours later and that is when I have trouble going back to sleep. I am wide awake and could sort out anything I want to. What helps me is to just repeat the earlier "go to bed" routine. Get up, go downstairs, read a book until your eyelids droop, then go to bed as though it is 10.30pm. I had a very bad period when I would just wake up every hour or so but lately, even though there is a lot of stress going on, I have been better. I put that down to the right balance of minerals. I only have one, decaf, coffee a day at about 11am. After that it is all decaf tea or herbal tea night time blend.

Now the strong Zinc medication that I take is no available due to the fuel shortage!


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes you do have quite a few ongoing and underlying things going on Pat. Understand your brain not totally switching off when you go to bed.

Ray.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Pat - is it worth taking the amitriptyline when you wake up after the 4 hours of sleep?


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Yes Ray but I am sleeping better now than before the Magnesium was added in.

Graham, I had wondered that?? I do take a Co Codamol which has Codeine in it which has a mildly sedative effect.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Got to be worn a try for a week Pat, provided you don't lose your 4 hours

Dr's are pretty flexible with Amitriptyline in my experience letting you (me, that is) play around with doses, timings etc to suit. My Dr explained that its an older, clunky 'catch all' type of drug used for numerous purposes. Mrs GMJ takes 20mg for muscle pains for example...


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

That's interesting, Graham. I wonder if it would solve my sciatic pain that only comes on during my "second" sleep? I am tackling that with clinical pilates exercise again since Chris went to a physio about all his back problems and got reminded to do the ones he had forgotten about  They do really work if you do them.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Got to be worth a play around with it Pat. Its a fairly benign drug as far as I know so shouldn't mess around with most other things. Given the huge cocktail of stiff that Mrs GMJ takes, I can't see it being a problem.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Will you lot shut up, trying to have nap here


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

That's another weird thing. I can nap in the afternoon and it has no effect whatsoever on my sleep that night! DID YOU HEAR THAT KEV? 

I think I might give it a go Graham. If nothing else it will be one less drug in my system. I used to be on one of the Z drugs and I used to take that in the middle of the night because it would wear off at about 4am!


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Hardly ever

On a course of steroids 

Watching the clock to stay in bed till 5 am 

Often think 4am will do 

But I’m retired 

Does it matter?

Could have a couple of hours in the afternoon

And those drawers and cupboards won’t clean themselves

Those hoovers won’t strip down themselves

All’s those bitty jobs done in the quite of the night

Sandra


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I have given up worrying about it, if someone asks me how did you sleep I just say “as usual”

They tell me I don’t look (or act) my age, I am still capable of driving my car and Motorhome, so lack of sleep does me no harm.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

😀😃😄


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

From Roger on Fruitcakes.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

That's terrible Jim.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

We were sat sitting in bed last night when I noticed movement, a bloody great hairy spider was sauntering up the middle of the bed, it didn't do much for Liz trying to get off to sleep, I know there is one under the bed anyway but this one was being a bit foolhardy and paid the ultimate price, I slept ok for most of the night though.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Tried the drug shuffle last night. Slept til the usual 4ish, got up and took the Amitriptyline and read for a bit. Slept through til 6am but then dozed off again until gone 7am. That pattern is pretty usual nowadays so will stick with the drug shuffle and pilates and see how we get on.

Another thing that I do is lavender oil on the edge of my pillow each night. There was some research on a geriatric ward where they gave a placebo sleeping pill to half the patients but put lavender on the edge of the pillow and it worked as well if not better.

I also write down (not think of) three things I am grateful for just before settling down to sleep. Bit of a struggle the moment but I get there


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

It will probably take a few days/week to see any difference if there is to be one Pat, I reckon.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Awful sciatica the night before last  Think it was to do with wrestling with the lawn mower.

Still doing two shifts of sleep. Think I would have slept later than 6.30 this morning if the dog had not barked. Our neighbours opposite have just had a new set of electric gates fitted so we wondered if she heard them? The Air B&B properties, that they have, often have workers in them too.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Never sleep well, wake constantly 

Sometimes I read, I enjoy that , sometimes times I watch the clock, 5am I can get up it’s a reasonable time

Always I remember I’m retired so I can always have an afternoon nap

The joy of retirement 

Sandra


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