# At a crossroads



## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

Our first trip out this year has brought it home to us that something has to change if we are going to carry on with motorhoming.

Lots of you have vans much bigger than ours (Rapido 6 metre) but my good lady simply hates going anywhere other than main roads and it is taking the pleasure out of our trips as she doesn't want to use the van for anything other than getting to the site.

For instance, despite the road from Crewkerne to Bridport being closed for over 6 months, our campsite didn't bother to tell us when we booked. So, we ended up down tiny country lanes, upsetting all the locals and with SHMBO having her eyes shut most of the time!

Public transport could be an answer if it wasn't so damn unreliable!

So, we have two options

1) Caravan  (Don't want to change to the dark side)

2) Downsize to a smaller van which we could park on the drive (too small for the Rapido) and I could use as a second car.

We are probably going to look at the Autosleeper Tribute.

Views please - sensible ones!!


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

well

I think you need to look at the facts

And as you say you have two options

Narrowed down to one

So it seems you have your answer

Aldra


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Toad?


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## Tucano (Jun 9, 2006)

Downsize would also mean less gear aboard so could you both be comfortable with that.
If your wife prefers to simply use the van to get to a site would she then be as happy sitting in a smaller van.
I can see the merit in a caravan, good luck whatever you do, just keep doing it :roll: 
Norman.


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

We downsized from a big tag axel Hymer to the first of the Hymer Exsis.
It was a big jump but a great move, you do have to decide what you really need and ditch the junk.
The sitting area is the only downside if its wet but we like to spend most of our time n the sun so that's to a problem as we prefer to be outside.
We now fit in a standard parking space and I often go to the supermarket with no problems.
Aires and Francs Passion are also a lot easier for us now as we just turn up without worrying if we can fit on.
We still managed a 3 week tour of France, Italy and Swizerland with 4 adults and didn't miss the big van.
Altogether a much less stressful experience for us.

James


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

aldra said:


> well
> 
> I think you need to look at the facts
> 
> ...


Unless we pack up altogether, which I don't really want to do


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

barryd said:


> Toad?


Too clever for me


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

Any examples of suitable vehicles?

2 - berth only needed

Must have loo and cooker

Not bothered about shower.

About £25k to spend


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## MikeCo (Jan 26, 2008)

A 6m panel van may be the answer but it's not a lot different to what you have apart from being narrower.
After having motorhomes we did go back to the car/caravan but mainly because we were pitched up in Spain for 4 months. This we still have but I did buy a new Peugeot panel van and did my own conversion for a total cost of £27,000. We are thinking about selling the caravan and using the Panel van for France in Summer and also Winter in Spain.
If we use it in Spain it will be parked up with an awning but will hire a car for everyday use.
I do use the panel van as a day vehicle though and that is no problem.
The problem with most of the panel van conversions is lack of storage which by various means I have mainly overcome on my design, so if you go down that route have a good look first.

Mike


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## pneumatician (May 1, 2005)

We started "Motorhoming " with an Autosleeper Trident VW T4. Just like driving a large car. Main drawback was no washroom and the rock and roll bed was too small.

Our current van is 6m and I find it Ok for most purposes just a large Sprinter. Bit like a large Trident but with a fixed bed, garage and a lot quicker.

Can't find an Autosleeper Tribute to compare ?


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

I have a auto cruise tempo panel van

6m long 2.5 high and the same width as a panel van you see on the road (i believe 2.3m)

Just like driving a car but you sit higher.

It sleeps 2

either 2 single beds or one large double (i'm 6ft 2 and about 18 stone and I fit perfectly when laid down)

has a full sized cooker 2 sinks shower and loo and a large fridge all run off gas (fridge and water heater can also run off electric)

I thought I would regret the size but for what we use it for (we're still working so can't swan off for months on end) it's perfect.

The benefits of a panel van is less likely to worry about damp (its all metal) however the insulation in them is rubbish....i retro fitted mine with loft insulation and has made a massive difference)

The only downside is it's height as in the UK half the car parks are set at 2.2 m

I've never had a problem in Europe yet.


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## Jodi1 (Mar 25, 2010)

I think I am a bit like your wife, bazzeruk, as I'm nervous going along narrow roads in the MH. 
We downsized by three feet in length and 10 inches in width, not much really but I feel happier on the road and may even be tempted into the driving seat ( I've driven it round a campsite). The van is 6metres long and high on storage solutions. There is a bike rack fitted and we have a Fiamma storage bag which is mounted on the bike rack to take things like ramps and the camp chairs. We did have a cull of all the stuff we seem to have accumulated in the old van, but have found the current van holds plenty and is comfortable. Unfortunately there's not many used Bentleys about, it took us a while to find this one.


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## Spiritofherald (May 18, 2012)

I find my Elddis Xplorer 100 (see Avatar) perfectly comfortable despite it's obvious small seating area. It has everything we need including a shower, wardrobe, cooker, fridge, heating and two double beds (one permantley set up) so what else would I need? 

You will easily find one in your price range. In fact I'm thinking of selling mine later this year at a price well within your budget even though it's low mileage and in pretty good condition (this is not meant to sound like an advert, I'm just pointing out what is available).


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Please don't think I am not sympathetic to your quandary.

Here on the coast of mid Wales we have narrow roads aplenty.

The first MH we bought was a lifting-roof Bongo. 
Not much wider than an ordinary car but a bit longer.

My wife said that she would never be able to drive it.
She had a few lessons from a local driving instructor which gave her immense confidence and I could hardly get her out of the driving seat!

A couple of years or so later we changed to our Hymer Van. 
6m long, 2.3m wide and 2.72m high.

She said she wouldn't be able to drive it.
She won a free MH driving lesson by the C&CC in Warwick.
That gave her the confidence to drive and manoevre it and she takes the wheel quite often- no bother at all.

She even drives on the "wrong side" in €U-land!

Absolutely essential to have a co-driver to take over when I get tired.

How about that approach for your wife?

Try asking her to drive just a mile or so along familiar roads for an afternoon picnic.

The other thing that struck me from your original post that you use the MH just for driving to sites.

We rarely do sites as we find the planning too restricting - after all the getting there is usually as much fun as arriving.

Remember, if your wife is driving she cannot close her eyes!

There is no law to say that you have to drive at the speed limit.

We take it very slowly if the road is narrow and windy and always pull over when we can to let people pass.

We reckon that if busses and lorries can drive along a road then we can too!

The high driving position makes things safer too.

We have a double lens rearview camera system which makes backing easier than in our little Peugeot 206 with its tiny wing mirrors.

Just some of my thoughts - I am sure your wife can do it, so show this post to her!


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

pippin said:


> Please don't think I am not sympathetic to your quandary.
> 
> Here on the coast of mid Wales we have narrow roads aplenty.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comments.

However, it is not a problem for her to drive (she drove the girls and their horses round in HGV horse lorries) - it is just that she hates going on narrow roads.

Yes, we do just use the van for going to sites, so are acting more like caravanners than motorhomers and that is part of the problem.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

A few trips ago we saw what I think was a 5th wheeler. It was a caravan body mounted on the back of a pick-up. This one was quite compact but looked to have a reasonable amount of space inside and had an easy to fit awning which must have doubled the living area.

We did talk long about them; they give you a car to explore with but don't have the greater length of a car plus caravan. I didn't notice how wide they are but did notice- as the owner left the site, how manoeuvrable it was on sharp bends.

Perhaps this might be a compromise solution for you ?

G


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

What are you, man or mouse Bazz.
Get Mrs. B a larger blindfold.

Might is right and the bigger you are the more right you are.!!!! Old American proverb... :wink: 

Ray.


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## simandme (Jan 11, 2011)

If the narrow roads are an issue, buy a trucker's map (provide lots of info); and a motorbike/small car and tow that. 

Alternatively, emigrate to Oz/South Africa - plenty of big, wide, empty roads :lol: :lol: 

Seriously though, I understand the closing eyes bit - it is not the road that causes me problems, but the drivers (well...not quite true there have been a few mountain passes that have been 'fun'). So, is it your driving?!?  :lol: 

Goodluck with finding a MH more suited to your requirements - plenty of people on the forum have changed vehicles - live and learn - but don't give up the lifestyle just yet :wink:


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## joedenise (Jul 20, 2007)

Sorry but if you only use sites the i would go back to a caravan but we tour europe using aires but if I only used sites then it would be a caravan for me

joe


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

(I'll await the flames).

Caravan. Get one. Your usage pattern is better suited to it, you'll have a lot more room in the van itself, and ability to go out in a "normal" sized vehicle when you arrive at your destination.

Your budget would buy a nearly new van with matching car to go with it.


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## drcotts (Feb 23, 2006)

Approaching from a different angle there are oter things you can think of.

From a Psycological point it may be that your wife feels out of control if she is the passenger. She is fearful of crashing into things, hitting branches or just getting stuckl. Try not to make comments to make her think your worrying. In fact dont worry. So you may get stuck - so what no one will die..

We have all been in that situation me especially when we first had a van. 

I adopted a few rules which seem to have helped which you may like to consider.
Firstly plan where you going and avoid narrow roads if at all possible. Half the panic sets in when you dont know how long you are going down a particualr road for and then panic sets in. Have you ever driven down a road and worried a bit but when you drive back a few days later the road only seems half as long.

If you cant avoid it then -

1. If i meet someone coming the other way i position the van in the middle of the road (not pull over so they can get past in the first instance) This stops them flying past and almost hitting you or forcing you into the bank.

remember if you get stuck no one will die you just get delayed.

Most people dont know how to behave when meeting big vehicles in narrow places and wont stop or even slow down manily becase they dont know how to drive properly.

2. Get into the habit of looking for passing places in narrow roads and be prepared to pull in and wait for others to pass. Again remember some car drivers are thick as pig ****e when opassing large vehicles in narrow roads and so will gladly pull past a gateway themselves when they could have pulled in. Or they will pull over right opposite a low branch on your side of the road not realizing why you dont want to pull past and rip your sat dish off.

3. Learn how to turn round if your on the wrong road. Dont drive miles hoping for a way out. I drive past a side road and look down the road. if theres no one coming drive past and reverse in like on your test.
Following the kerb or hedge in the wing mirror of the side your turning into makes it easy - look out the back too if you can but you will see any cars approaching your rear end in the side mirror anyway.

You need to convince her that you are confident and are not going to prang the van and that you know what your doing. Nothing winds people up more than if they think you have not considered the finer points.

The other alternative is to not use narrow roads at all of course. We rarely go doen these now execpt for going to my freinds pub in norfolk which we cant help but we have got the hang of that now.`

I do hope you get somethng sorted though.


Phill


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## Pard (May 1, 2005)

Well, you've had the sensible replies. Here's the less helpful one. If you try looking for an Autosleeper Tribute, you might resolve the problem without changing vans. As Autosleeper don't make the Tribute - they are two different manufacturers - it's unlikely you'll ever find one and will just have to tell SWMBO that you must keep the Rapido. Simples.


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## Ozzyjohn (Sep 3, 2007)

bazzeruk said:


> However, it is not a problem for her to drive (she drove the girls and their horses round in HGV horse lorries) - it is just that she hates going on narrow roads.
> 
> Yes, we do just use the van for going to sites, so are acting more like caravanners than motorhomers and that is part of the problem.


Hi,

We had caravans for 15 years or so before changing to our current motorhome. Each have their benefits and disadvantages, of course.

If your wife hates going on narrow roads, what will change with having a caravan rather than a motorhome? Narrow roads won't be any easier to negotiate with a caravan in tow. At least with most motorhomes you have an elevated view of the narrow roads.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Regards,
John


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## jncrowe (Feb 14, 2009)

We had three caravans all five berth and towed with big seven seater shoguns Then we got a 4 berth bessacarr motorhome ,giant rear lounge and double bed over cab 
My husband was a lorry driver and I felt it was unfair that he should drive all week and then again at weekends etc 
So I did all the towing and driving and I was fine with it 
BUT I think with hindsight I may have been confident as I knew if I got stuck John could maneuver us out of trouble
The cab bed in the bessy was very unpopular with everyone : too high, too hot ,tooo stuffy etc, 
So we bought a Autotrail Dakota Fixed bed, large lounge 
large everything still easy to drive but .........
John lost his licence following an accident and was not allowed to drive 
I suddenly found the Dakota too big , we also have a towcar which made the double unit very very long and I felt anxious and afraid every time we went away, when we got onto a site I didnt enjoy it because I was worried about the journey home Etc
SO we decided to get a smaller van and enjoyed many happy hours looking round at vans all over the north west 
We eventually bought a Trigano Tribute Van and I love it Its like driving a tissue box compared with the big motorhomes 
OK its smaller and doesnt have the amount of storage but the bed is massive ( we never really fitted in the fixed bed ! ) and the fridge and bathroom are just about the same size The cooker doesnt have an oven but it has a massive cupboard under it ,I am thinking of getting a halogen oven and it has a very effective Diesel heater which is new to me 
I could go on about our new van for hours but the important fact is we both like it and I love to drive it 
This time Every year we have planned to go to Scotland but never got there but this year in our little van we WILL 
All the best 
Cath


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

It seems to be not so much a size issue as width, almost all coachbuilt and A class vans are within millimeters the same width so getting a shorter one won't make very much difference on the country roads.

Maybe a van conversion would suit better, about 300mm at least slimmer, easier to park, maybe even on the drive, car parks are never going to be easy but a PVC is much better.

If the boss isn't happy, sadly it might come down to a static on a favourite site, and just go by car, assuming it's not travel in general which is the problem.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Bazzeruk

Are you both happy on campsites when you arrive?

I mean does the camping life style suit you both?

I can to some extent understand your wife's concern, the left hand drive Hymer left me very edgy in this country with the illusion that oncoming traffic would hit us and I found myself closing my eyes and leaning in waiting for the crash

funnily enough that doesn't happen in Europe with the Adria, maybe because it's not an A class

although I still enjoy travelling on aires in the Van I do prefer spending longer lengths of time in one place so also enjoy campsites as a period of rest on long holidays

We can no longer walk all day so I am becoming increasingly frustrated at the lack of transport to get to places of interest, and although we have electric bikes I am not confident on roads and hate traffic passing me
it just may be you have both reached a cross road and need to re assess just what you want from your leisure time 

Aldra


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## Jennifer (Mar 24, 2009)

I too have the Autocruise Tempo, and I love it,

I also downsized from my first coach built 27 feet Kentucky, and then traded up to tag axle Euro Mobil Integra, 29 ft, before decided it was uneconomical for me as a solo female motor homer. Both the Kentucky and The Euro were driven by me in both Devon, Cornwall and Wales, although I have to admit, large gin and tonics were needed when set up on site. I used to hire cars from Enterprise when I had these vehicles, as CC members get 10% discount. Have had the Tempo now for over two years and I love it, so if you are thinking "smaller" can thoroughly recommend, but must agree with an earlier poster, that insulation is non existent, so heating when cold is essential.

Good luck.

Jenny


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

Ozzyjohn said:


> bazzeruk said:
> 
> 
> > However, it is not a problem for her to drive (she drove the girls and their horses round in HGV horse lorries) - it is just that she hates going on narrow roads.
> ...


Hi, John. Thanks for your comments.The issue is not so much about getting there, more about using the van to go places once we have arrived.


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> It seems to be not so much a size issue as width, almost all coachbuilt and A class vans are within millimeters the same width so getting a shorter one won't make very much difference on the country roads.
> 
> Maybe a van conversion would suit better, about 300mm at least slimmer, easier to park, maybe even on the drive, car parks are never going to be easy but a PVC is much better.
> 
> If the boss isn't happy, sadly it might come down to a static on a favourite site, and just go by car, assuming it's not travel in general which is the problem.


Many thanks - you are right - it is the width. We can't go much shorter - it's only 6 metres as it is!


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

aldra said:


> Bazzeruk
> 
> Are you both happy on campsites when you arrive?
> 
> ...


Thanks Aldra -

I think that is very much the problem. We thought we would find lots of sites where we could park and then just go walking every day with Pirate, but we have found very few of those so far. The walks become repetitive. e.g We went to a site near Bridport that was advertised in MMM as doggy heaven. True, the dog walk on site was excellent - perversely though they wouldn't allow dogs in the bar - but the main walk was closed due to a landslip. Not their fault I know but there were very few alternatives to that one walk.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

What about those Bentley motorhomes, they are slimmer than the other vans. One of our club members has one and she is delighted with it. She says she can now drive it herself on her own as well.

cabby


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

bazzeruk


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

ignore that :lol: 

Yea it I can be frustrating when you have a dog

They have to be enjoying the holiday

But you and her need to seriously talk through just what would make your holiday special for both of you

if that's not a motorhome

So be it

I have a sneaking suspicion it may not for me for much longer

And Albert he could take it or leave it :lol: :lol: 

aldra


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

aldra said:


> ignore that :lol:
> 
> Yea it I can be frustrating when you have a dog
> 
> ...


I think we are rapidly moving towards a campervan that will then also serve as a second car (so I can go off golfing and Ady stil has transport)!

Looking at VW or Hyundai conversions.

I will really miss the Rapido - fabulous to drive and she just passed the MOT again with only a CV boot to be changed.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I suppose it will come to all of us eventually, hanging up the EHU lead for the last time, giving it it's final wash and brush up before advertising for sale the one thing that gives us a real sense of freedom, we used to go off in the car at weekends, but of course you have to turn around and come home, with the MH we don't have to.

But hopefully for us at least it'll be a while yet, and will most likely be a financial decision as it is not a cheap hobby, but a most rewarding one, not many B&Bs where we like to stay.


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## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

Have you considered a cc motorhome driving course for your wife, not so that she becomes the main driver, but it may give a better understanding and make a country lane journey more comfortable for her.

Roy


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## Zozzer (Aug 13, 2006)

This thread is one of the most important ones I've seen on Motorhome Facts. It highlights the dilemma your faced with should you make the wrong decision when purchasing a motorhome.

There are no easy answers, because at the end of the day you BOTH have to be honest with yourself as to what you want out of the motorhoming lifestyle.

When we bought our Autosleeper Symbol, we bought it because it was small enough to park up on town centre carparks, it was easily manouverable in narrow country lanes could be used day trips, weekends away and it was more than capable of taking us across most of Europe for our main holiday. 

What I would suggest is that you hire a small camper of the type your thinking of downsizing to and see how you like it. Better to spend a few hundred on hiring, than thousands and still regret it. 

I once told my wife that our little Autosleeper, was the Carlsberg of Mtorhomes. When she asked why I replied "Because it reaches parts of the world other motorhomes can't reach".


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## gj1023 (Feb 23, 2010)

I bought a fixed bed low profile when I retired and at the time it suited my circumstances. But to be honest it was an expensive luxury , which when on a modest pension , was a bit of a waste of money, as it sat there more than it was used.

When I met my new partner , I decided to sell it and my car and have only one vehicle. This I did and I bought my Symbol and have not looked back. I have one insurance, no road tax and a vehicle that goes anywhere a white van man goes . It suits my partner and I and our little dog, it is used 2 or three times a week , so now it is worth the little extra in derv I use to have a truly multiple purpose vehicle.

Gary


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

takeaflight said:


> Have you considered a cc motorhome driving course for your wife, not so that she becomes the main driver, but it may give a better understanding and make a country lane journey more comfortable for her.
> 
> Roy


Thanks, but as explained, my wife drove a horse lorry for several years around the lanes of Devon and Cornwall so that isn't the main issue.

It is more a case of convenience when wanting to move around once we have arrived.

Cheers


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## Zozzer (Aug 13, 2006)

bazzeruk said:


> takeaflight said:
> 
> 
> > Have you considered a cc motorhome driving course for your wife, not so that she becomes the main driver, but it may give a better understanding and make a country lane journey more comfortable for her.
> ...


Well I think that all down to choosing the campsite wisely for whatever leisure activity your doing. In the UK we have started to check to see how far the local bus stop is from the campsite using the satelite view on google maps. We've never been bothered about leaving the van onsite whilst going out for the day. If we are fortunate and find a site with good local transport then it's a bonus.

We've never had a caravan so have never had the luxury of having a car on standby at the site.

From day one we have always understood that if your the kind of person who likes to get to a site and park up for the duration of your multiple days stay then your probably better off with a car+caravan. If however you like to tour from site to site then a motorhome wins every time.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

bazzeruk said:


> Thanks, but as explained, my wife drove a horse lorry for several years around the lanes of Devon and Cornwall so that isn't the main issue.
> 
> It is more a case of convenience when wanting to move around once we have arrived.
> 
> Cheers


I think Barry gave the solution on page one then, a toad, it doesn't have to be expensive, even a scooter might work in the summer, keep the van or down size, tow a little smart or something.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> bazzeruk said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, but as explained, my wife drove a horse lorry for several years around the lanes of Devon and Cornwall so that isn't the main issue.
> ...


Yep. A scooter is an excellent addition. A bit chilly in the winter but so much fun in the summer. When I am looking at a place to visit I try and find the nicest place to stay within 10 miles which usually means a free and quiet Aire or wild spot and then use the bike to get in to the city or town of interest.

Its not for everyone which is why I suggested a toad.


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## tonyt (May 25, 2005)

Personally, I think you need to make that big Compromise.

It's hard to do but at heart, you know it makes sense.

Go for something like a Bongo - there are numerous outfits of that size of assorted bases.

That then gives you the ability to use it as a car and still be able to get down those narrow lanes.

Then, if you like to stay on campsites and tour from that base, get yourself a drive-away awning - can be used for extra space/storage and even a washroom.

If that takes up too much space inside then get a box trailer for it (no problem for you to tow with your experience).

If you really want to be mobile, go for the ealier suggestion of a scooter - tow it on your multi purpose trailer.


Lots of different options out there to keep you in the motorhome/campervan world but you'll have to swallow that hard pill called compromise.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

I disagree, based on your last comment I think you are heading into CARAVAN country. If it suits go for it, motorhomes are not the only way to enjoy a holiday. The other alternative is to by a Cabin or Static.

cabby.


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## goldi (Feb 4, 2009)

Morning all,

One of the big advantages of a pvc is on street parking, We find it quite convenient for day trips . I do hoever envy the big coachbuilts when on site for their space. The space under the bed on our Adia twin carries six chairs , isabella sunbed ,two tables and a utility tent. We too spend most of our time on sites for a relativley long duration but I could not be bothered to tow acaravan to southern France or spain even though I would save tens of thousands pounds.


norm


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## DrRoger (Aug 21, 2010)

bazzeruk said:


> aldra said:
> 
> 
> > ignore that :lol:
> ...


Hi bazzeruk,
We've tried allsorts, not the sweets! Our first venture into motorhoming was an AS Trooper on a VW T5 chassis-nippy & economical. It was great to drive & living-the sleeping with the rock'n roll bed was not so good-for us. Porta-potti loo not easily accessible & 6 weeks in France left SWMBO struggling to get up!

However, AS Topaz looks very good. With the Trooper or the Topaz you can wind the electric mirrors in if width is a problem.

I use our motorhomes as a 2nd vehicle so don't lay them up-just drain 'em, so I nip to supermarkets/the doctors'/wherever & whatever I need to do.

Most problematic was our AS Devon on a Sprinter chassis-2.75M wide & umpteen wing mirror 'kisses' & one smash thanks to a lary builders lorry! We had loo' & shower BUT the width was a pig!

We now have a Hymer Exsis i578 that we love-6.7M long & only 2.2m wide. We did the the manoeuvring course @ Diamond at Newark for only 40 quid an hour-great value!

Sounds like a Topaz might really suit you-the new 'uns are proper bobby-dazzlers & there are lots available in your price bracket-go for a T5 if you can. You'll whistle past caravans & most motorhomes! Part of our Hymer-planning was to get a Snooper for Motorhomes BUT no need if you get the VW.

Whatever, make sure you're both happy & enjoy!


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