# London Emission Zone Petition



## 94639 (May 1, 2005)

Hi all

There is now a petition on the 10 Downing Street web site petitioning the PM to make motorhomes exempt from the proposed London Emission Zone charges,

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/motorhomes/


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## annetony (May 1, 2005)

signed


Anne


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## oldmokey (May 27, 2007)

Signed, but it closes today with 8 signatures, doesn't send out a good message


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## oldmokey (May 27, 2007)

whoops sorry i am a year out.


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## tokkalosh (May 25, 2006)

Signed.
10 signatures so far ... but 12 months to go :lol:


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## Waleem (Nov 1, 2006)

The petition could have been better worded-for instance, we are not ALL "retired" and this is not clear.
Signed anyway.


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## bigfoot (May 16, 2005)

I still ask the question 'what are CC & C&CC doing about this?
Are they more concerned about selling insurance,credit cards and overseas trips to bother with home. The Caravan Club especially as it will affect their sites at Abbey Wood and Crystal, or is it just not bother its only motorhomes eh?
Oh BTW I've signed.


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

Interesting this, especially as we currently live within the LEZ.

So, why should motorhomes be exempt? The point was made in the petition that many motorhomes are owned by retired people. In which case, they can afford the time to drive around the LEZ, can't they? Why does anyone _have_ to drive through the zone (unless they live there)?

My motorhome is exempt / approved, and it looks like all registered after October 2001 will comply, as well as many others registered before that date. I wonder how many people will really be driving through the zone with an unapproved motorhome.

Anything that tries to improve the environment within the M25 sounds good to me.

Gerald


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## Waleem (Nov 1, 2006)

Gerald
I think you miss the point slightly. My understanding of the LEZ is to reduce the level of pollution within the M25 area-a sound idea, but surely it is mainly targeted at commercial vehicles, trucks vans etc? The point made is that there are so few motorhomes likely to use the area that their contribution to overall pollution would be minute, especially considering that the vast majority of motorhomes are very well serviced and maintained and thus likely to be much cleaner than "white van man's".
I think that this lack of an exemption could be counterproductive as it may well lead to a reduction in overall tourism from our group across Europe. We are not all retired, neither can we all afford a new or very recent motorhome in order to comply. On a personal note, I have friends in the greater London area whom I often call in on when returning from Europe-I won't be able to do this any more- YET, If I buy an 8 litre petrol RV with a knackered engine, I can !!!!
I'm just not sure that the implications been properly considered.


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## 94639 (May 1, 2005)

I live just within the LEZ which is basically anywhere within the M25 perimeter. My van is compliant up to 2012 or so the TFL site tells me. If my van was non compliant the half mile journey to exit the zone would cost me £100, my return a day or so later would also cost me another £100, that makes the meet or rally that I have attended a touch on the expensive side don't you think. I have been told that if the charge is not paid within a certain time frame a fine is incurred and the cost goes up to £1000 per day .There are many retired people living within the zone who I am sure cannot afford to upgrade their van to a compliant vehicle. They do not want to drive around within the zone, they just want to get out of it. Please also consider that the London Congestion Charge is now being touted for application in other towns and cities it will only be a matter of time before the Emission Zone charges are also being levied in a town near to you.


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

brisey said:


> If my van was non compliant the half mile journey to exit the zone would cost me £100, my return a day or so later would also cost me another £100


Is this right? £100 a journey???

Gerald


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## 94639 (May 1, 2005)

Hi Gerald

I have been told that non compiant vehicles will be charged £100 per day to travel within the zone. The following is from the TFL website

How much will the daily charge be? 
£200 for lorries, buses and coaches, and £100 for heavy vans and minibuses, which do not meet the emissions standards. 

You can find out more about paying the charge for the LEZ on our website.

edit got the penalty charge wrong see below for correct info

How much is the penalty charge? 

It is £1000 per day for lorries, buses and coaches that are used inside the Zone and do not meet the required emissions standards (This drops to £500, if it is paid within 14 days).

From October 2010, the penalty charge for heavier vans and minibuses that are used in the Zone and do not meet the required emissions standards is £500 per day. (This drops to £250, if it is paid within 14 days.)

Notification will be sent to the Registered Keeper of the vehicle.

There is more information on the penalty charges section of the website


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## EdsMH (Apr 25, 2007)

*Don't hold your breath everyone*

I signed a couple of days ago as it is good to show one's views however.....

I have signed a few over the period the e petitions have been live but each time months later you get a trite reply that says basically we have looked at it but intend to do what we wanted to all along.

I think the worst one was the road pricing petition (similar to Ken's) which got a tremendous response from the public. Answer was we have no plans at present...lo and behold within months they invited councils to bid for trial areas. I expect they will approve most over time and then roll out universally for even more 'stealth' taxes.

An unusual rant for me but sad that consultation by this government is worthless.

Ed


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## richard863 (May 1, 2005)

Signed up.

Don't forget Chertsey CC&C we use it quite a lot.

Studying the LEZ map that falls within the area. If the information is correct I am exempt for the next 2 years then £250 a day charge, thats 2 weeks pension at todays rate. 8O Look at it another way if I have to get rid of the MH what need will I need for this club MHF.

kind regards


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

*Re: Don't hold your breath everyone*



EdsMH said:


> I signed a couple of days ago as it is good to show one's views however.....
> 
> I have signed a few over the period the e petitions have been live but each time months later you get a trite reply that says basically we have looked at it but intend to do what we wanted to all along.
> 
> ...


So did you miss the announcement that they are not now going ahead with road pricing Ed. It was on the national news a day or so ago.


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## EdsMH (Apr 25, 2007)

*Road Pricing*

Sallytraffic

Guess I did miss that one...... and Gordon bottled out of giving the country a chance to choose so two more years of increasing taxes and nanny state intervention.

I wonder how they will price motorhome use? Hope it is not like the M6 toll.. 8O

Ed


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## MrRob (Jan 15, 2007)

*Particulate Emmissions*



geraldandannie said:


> Interesting this, especially as we currently live within the LEZ.
> 
> So, why should motorhomes be exempt? The point was made in the petition that many motorhomes are owned by retired people. In which case, they can afford the time to drive around the LEZ, can't they? Why does anyone _have_ to drive through the zone (unless they live there)?
> 
> ...


I could understand this argument IF the requirement was for ALL vehicles to be Euro3/4 compliant ....

I wonder if the rest of the general public would "put up" with having to spend £3500 fitting "approved" abatement equipment to allow their cars to be exempted ? (NB this will not make the engines fully Euro3/4 compliant it only tests Particulate Emissions) ...

Edit ... if your visit spans midnight it will cost £400 in a van of GVW over 3.5 ton !!


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emmisions*

Hi 
I have started this petition as I felt the main clubs were sitting back and letting it happen and 2010 would soon be on us but we have a lot of members in the Kent MCC who have to travel in and out of London to Rally and some the 2008 deadline applies.
I live in Kent and travel on the M25 to get to different parts of the country and if there was an accident and the traffic was diverted off the motorway then it would result in a fine.
If we needed a hospital while travelling then it would also result in a fine.
I asked how much would it cost to convert my pre 2002 motorhome and was told there is no conversion buy a new one and scrap yours.
So £24000 goes down the drain.
Im worried that it will spread like the congestion charge is now Manchester, Cambridge and Greenwich by 2010.
Please check out http://www.truckuk.net/publications.asp it is all explained


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## EdsMH (Apr 25, 2007)

Well done locovan for starting the petition to get things going and hopefully some notice will be taken.

The best way though to influence politicians these days is to get as many members of clubs and drivers in general to go and see their MP's and write to them. If MP's feel their personal futures and wealth may be at risk from a bad policy then they act. Otherwise they follow the whip.

This is the key, but us Brits are not very good in general at standing up for what we believe is right...that is until we are really pushed.


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## MrRob (Jan 15, 2007)

*Re: emmisions*



locovan said:


> I asked how much would it cost to convert my pre 2002 motorhome and was told there is no conversion buy a new one and scrap yours.
> So £24000 goes down the drain.


My old van bought in Feb this year was 13 days too old ... CC and C&CC advice at the time seemed to indicate there was an exemption for motorcaravans so I'm doubly hacked off with them!
_
Then considering my options I spoken to Bill at Astra Vehicle Technologies  who are TfL Approved Device manufactures/fitters and he confirmed my(old) Van (a 2.8 Iveco 35c13) could be made LEZ compliant for £3000 (+VAT) ... he also suggested that any other van could be adapted ... he might be worth a call.
_
I was fortunate enough to be able to afford to sell (before the LEZ became common knowledge) a bought a new van, but I reckon the duff/unclear advice from The CC and C&CC (and my ignorance) cost me £7-10k .... I'll drive the new one through London (outside congestion charge times) just as often as I can :wink:


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emmissions*

Thankyou for your info and will look into it.
I e-mailed Technical Department at Fiat and they have not got anything to offer and they have no conversions or suggestions.
So any info like yours is most welcome


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## 96266 (Sep 12, 2005)

This is yet a further example of iniquitous legislation. 

The exempt vehicle status appears to be based on registration date; this will lead to the situation where two identical vehicles will be treated differently, one exempt the other not, depending on whether they were registered a before or after the arbitrary date!


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## MrRob (Jan 15, 2007)

*Re: emmissions*



locovan said:


> Thankyou for your info and will look into it.
> I e-mailed Technical Department at Fiat and they have not got anything to offer and they have no conversions or suggestions.
> So any info like yours is most welcome


I had the same unhelpful response from sister company Iveco (as per this thread) , but there are options out there .... approved by the TfL for the LEZ but not the vehicle manufacturers.


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## Grandma (Jan 25, 2006)

My Van was registered in 2004 so should be compliant at least until 2012. My problem is that as I have Isle of Man registration I will have to pre-register my vehicle with the tfl if I want to enter the LEZ. 
This now comes to the question of all other foreign and Irish registered vehicles, particulary tourist visitors from Europe. According to tfl they should all register prior to getting into the LEZ if they are compliant. If they do not register they will get fined. If not compliant will they all get fined? Will the tfl chase them all up?
As Campervanners we are all away from home for sometimes weeks so any fines will escalate unless someone at home opens your post. I am away for 2 months each summer and my post remains unopened for that time. 
For me it is easier to stay well clear of the M25 and it's contents, but if this Emission Zone repeats itself across the UK cities I can see us all swopping SAFE routes across the country side!


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## 102731 (Jan 30, 2007)

richard863 said:


> Signed up.
> 
> Don't forget Chertsey CC&C we use it quite a lot.
> 
> ...


Just for accuracy, Chertsey is not in the zone., it's outside the M25.
On a broader note: This is a proposal from the Mayor of London and he usually can do what he wants without Government intervention. Why should motorhomes be exempt? White van man has the right to make a living and will not be able to afford these payments especially if he's a courier making several return journeys per day. He will lose his job, we will be inconvenienced.
Also, having read the petition, the writer was well intentiioned but misspelt emotive, unreasoned missives from a retired person will be ignored.
BTW I didn't sign.


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

I have just checked my map and Chertsey is in the M25 Zone by the M3
Remember too Caravanners use 4X4's These to come into it so I have a Motor Home not a white van if I did then I would have started a petition for white vans or 4X4.
Im sorry you think Im a (well intentiioned but misspelt emotive, unreasoned missives from a retired person will be ignored.)
We are all entitled to our opinions of coarse.
Im just a woman who bought a Motorhome to enjoy my Retirement and now I have been told to scrap my prize van and have nothing to part exchange with, I will not be able to sell it ( because it does not comply) so I will have to park it somewhere and let rosies grow around the door.


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emissions zone*

I passed on the question of Class MI to the Minister of Transport Office (reply below) 
My Local MP has written also to the Treasury Minister and asked for her comments I will let you know what these are as soon as I hear. 
I have copied my petition and all the people signing it 243 so far and sent that to Ken Livingstone and that is the all I seem to be able to do. 
I will just let the petition run and keep sending it in to him all through next year 
If you havent signed please do The Link is http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/motorhomes/

FROM The Minister OF Transport Office 
LOW EMISSION ZONE 
Thank you for your emails of 29 October 2007 regarding the European classification of motorcaravans and their operation in the Low Emission Zone (LEZ). 
You are correct in your understanding of the European classification given to your vehicle. Transport for London (TfL) is aware that motorcaravans are legally defined as passenger carrying vehicles and so fall into the M1 category. However, because the emissions from these vehicles may be substantially higher than those from passenger cars, TfL has included the vehicles in this class within the scope of the LEZ and are defined as such in Annex 2 of the Scheme Order. As explained previously, such vehicles have similar emissions characteristics to the Heavy Goods Vehicles (HGVs) and Light Goods Vehicles (LGVs) from which they are derived, and as such TfL considers that they should be applied to the same emissions requirements

Operators of lorries, buses, coaches and all other vehicles over 3.5 tonnes which do not meet the LEZ standards will need to pay a daily charge of £200. There will be a £100 charge for non-compliant minibuses, large vans and all other vehicles 3.5 tonnes and under, affected from 2010, for each charging day they are driving in the zone. I fully appreciate your situation but the level of charge has been set in order to encourage operators to clean up their vehicles rather than pay the daily charge.

I would like to re-iterate that there are still options available to you to comply with the scheme (and thus avoid the daily charge) including: fitting particulate abatement equipment to the vehicle or certifying that an eligible engine meets the required standard. TfL has a set up a dedicated enquiries service to help vehicle owners understand what the LEZ means for them and what they may have to do to comply with the scheme. The call centre can be contacted on 0845 607 0009. Alternatively, further information about the LEZ can be found on TfL's website at: www.tfl.gov.uk/lezlondon.

The LEZ was subject to two rounds of public and stakeholder consultation during 2006-07. The LEZ remains the most effective option for achieving reductions of the most harmful road transport generated emissions in London between 2008 and 2015. Further information on the public consultation and the need to implement the LEZ can be found on TfL's website at: www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/furtherinfo.

Policy Officer

London Low Emission Zone


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## WingPete (Jan 29, 2006)

*MiniCabs*

You could always try registering the motorhomes as minicabs, and only pay an annual fee of £27.50 to TFL, like a Ferrari or Aston Martin. :wink:


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## pagey (Sep 26, 2006)

well done mavis keep going pagey


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emisions*

Make sure you vote for Boris this is a reply I had when I sent Boris the Link to the Petition 
Dear Ms Nye,

Thank you very much for bringing this particular issue to our attention. All your comments and suggestions are greaty appreciated.

Boris Johnson's campaign is at present holding 'working groups' throughout London to develop solutions for London.

We have had a lot of correspondence about the predicted emission charges and we should be putting more information on our website about this issue soon.

I will in the meantime make sure your comments will get forwarded to the relevant people for future discussion groups (as stated below.)

Many thanks again and kind regards,
Georgiana 
Housing

Stephen Greenhalgh 
Sean Bailey - Conservative Candidate for Hammersmith
Angela Harvey 
Mike Freer 
Simon Randall - Chairman of Broomleigh Homes
Mira Bar-Hillel _ Evening Standard.
James Cartlidge - Sharetobuy
Alan de Botton
Tony Pidgley - Berkeley Homes
Peter Redfern - Taylor Wimpey

Planning and Regeneration

John Moss
Terry Farrell
Peter Golds 
Sir Stuart Lipton
Sir Peter Hall
Nick Paget-Brown (K&C)

Peter Thompson (Leader, Hounslow - Heathrow impact, balancing development in west as well as east etc)

Michael Heseltine

Peter Stoker - Commercial Director Bellway PLC

Rail

Steve Norris 
Kulveer Ranger
Stephen Hammond

Matthew Offord, Barnet

Colin Smith, Bromley

Daniel Moylan
James Morris 
Joe Weiss - London Corporation

Value for Money

Ian Corby
Kit Malthouse
Eddie Lister

Olympics

Kate Hoey
Philip Hammond
Brian Coleman
Iain Wilton
David Shaw
Geoff Parsons
Lord MacLaurin

Alan Mendoza

Crime

Ray Lewis
Ian Clement
Greg Smith
Richard Barnes
James Brokenshire MP
Victoria Borwick
John Stevens/Nick Herbert are trying to come up with a police name to help.

Health

1. Professor Nick Bosanquet, Professor of Health Policy at Imperial 
College London
2. Dr. Tim Crayford, DPH & Medical Director, Corydon PCT.
President, Association of Directors of Public Health (UK).
3. Sir Jonathan Michael, former Chief Executive, Guy and St. Thomas 
Trust
4. Henry Pitman - Formerly Chief Executive, Tribal Group
5. Rachel Joyce (PPC Harrow, public health expert used to work for
A PCT)

6. Andy Jones (GP and on candidates list, a leading health expert 
In UK)
7. Margot James
8. Lurline Champagnie! (who is happy with the above)

9. Lynne Hillan (Barnet), Vice-Chair on the Health & Adult Services Forum and Portfolio Holder in Barnet


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## Grandma (Jan 25, 2006)

Discussions have all gone quiet on this subject, even on other places on the net. Does that mean we have all shrugged our shoulders and said 'OK, not a lot we can do about it'? and accepted the situation? Or are we all waiting to see how it all pans out, or are we all converting/selling our older vehicles, or just avoiding the LEZ like the plague. The fines start this coming Feb 2008 on larger Diesel vehicles, no doubt these will be reflected in the rising cost of commodities. 


('Shrugging shoulders') Does anyone have any updates?


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Grandma said:


> Discussions have all gone quiet on this subject, even on other places on the net. Does that mean we have all shrugged our shoulders and said 'OK, not a lot we can do about it'? and accepted the situation? Or are we all waiting to see how it all pans out, or are we all converting/selling our older vehicles, or just avoiding the LEZ like the plague. The fines start this coming Feb 2008 on larger Diesel vehicles, no doubt these will be reflected in the rising cost of commodities.
> 
> ('Shrugging shoulders') Does anyone have any updates?


Hi Grandma, and yes, basically, we're stuffed. They could have put motorhomes as an exception, because they are mostly a different tax class, and are not exactly a significant number. I don't think the CC / CC were sufficiently persuasive in their representations.
The case of foreign motorhomers coming over and getting lumbered with fines because they are not compliant would be a problem; it remains to be seen whether these number recognition cameras are 1) comprehensive on all roads into & out of the zone? and 2) accurate, and whether the "fines" will be applied consistently.

I shall just avoid going in to London in the van - the only reason I would go anyway would be to go to either of the CC sites. But the Chertsey (and Walton on Thames) CCC sites are outside the zone (but inside the M25), according to the Club.

I feel sorry for members like Brisey who live inside the zone, for whom there is no real way out, apart from spending a lot of dosh.


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emissions*

"I do feel like giving up and say well we tried"
Only just over 300 people have signed which just goes to show we are only talking about a small group of Motor Homes.
But I have found many people do not realize it means them.
Most come into the 2010 group so I feel it will bring it home to people then when the fines start arriving on their doorstep. £200 will be a shock for a day in London or just passing through like at the Blackwall Tunnel.
The people Living in London will have the fine every time they move their van.
Travelling around London I have seen the cameras they are in sets of 6 or more and look like blackbirds on an ariel and are on all roads just after the M25.
This is another point people think it just covers London City and are shocked when I say it is the whole of the inside of the M25 ringroad.
Please talk to people and ask them to sign the petition.

Mavis (I love my old MotorHome)


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emissions*

Update to my Petition

From the Minister of State
Rt Hon Rosie Winterton MP

Julian Brazier TD MP
House of Commons
London
SW1A OAA

Dear Julian
Thank you for your letter of 29 October enclosing correspondence from your constituent Mrs Mavis Nye about the classification of motorhomes and the London low emissions zone (LLEZ)
I have noted Mrs Nye's concerns but, following the creation of the Greater London Authority. Transport for London (TFL) (under the Mayors jurisdiction) is now responsible for the day to day management of the transport services in London (with exception of the National Railway at present.)

Parliament gave the Mayor of London the powers to introduce road charging schemes in Greater London in the Greater London Authority (GLA) act 1999 which created the Greater London Authority.
The aim of the scheme is to improve air quality for those living, working or studying in London, as well as to help London and the UK move closer to achieving national and EU air quality targets.
The Government remains committed to improving air quality and the Department for Transport supports the aims of the LLEZ
Mrs Nye is correct in suggesting that in principle, motorhomes are classified as Category M1 vehicles under European Vehicle approval regulations Unfortunately some motorhome converters use the base vehicles type approval details (usually the base vehicle is a truck chassis, which is category N 1) to gain registration and thus the vehicle is recorded within DVLA as N1 category and not M1.
The records held at DVLA will determine the category of emission charges.
If Mrs Nye's registration certificate (document V5C) shows the vehicle as a Motorhome but an N1 type approval category she should return it to DVLA with a covering letter for amendment.
I hope this explains the position
Rosie Winterton

These are some extracts from the original letter.

My next petition will be to stop cutting the rain forest down as we will run out of oxygen soon


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## scottie (May 11, 2005)

done
thanks


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2007)

geraldandannie said:


> Interesting this, especially as we currently live within the LEZ.
> 
> So, why should motorhomes be exempt? The point was made in the petition that many motorhomes are owned by retired people. In which case, they can afford the time to drive around the LEZ, can't they? Why does anyone _have_ to drive through the zone (unless they live there)?
> 
> ...


Pull up the ladder Jack, I'm all right!

WingPete has a MH for sale registered 2003 which apparently does not comply. (see classified ads) He lives in the zone so is directly affected.

I am currently looking for a MH but will not buy one that does not apply, (we have seen a few nice ones already that don't). But I have a feeling that other authorities will follow London's lead (see the conjestion charge) and soon we will have pockets of LEZs all over the country.

I would not think that anyone will drive around in a MH within the LEZ for the hell of it. Mostly those that are directly affected live or have business in the zone and will pay heavily for the privelige.

My son has a bit to do with BRSCA Stock car racing and most of the competitors use transporters built out of coaches and older trucks. He predicts it will see the closure of a well known south London venue as none of the competitors will be able to afford to go there.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2007)

locovan said:


> I have just checked my map and Chertsey is in the M25 Zone by the M3


In point of fact Chertsey C&CC site is whilst within the M25, is _outside_ the LEZ if that comforts anyone.


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## 94639 (May 1, 2005)

In point of fact Chertsey C&CC site is whilst within the M25, is outside the LEZ if that comforts anyone.

Correct, just make sure that your route to and from the site does not take you into the zone. If it does you will be charged.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

brisey said:


> Chertsey C&CC site ......comfort....


An oxymoron? Have you seen their prices? 8O

Dougie.


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## amac (Apr 21, 2006)

I have been trying to raise awareness of the LEZ problems with the CC and with MMM. The latter has now woken up a little, but the former still seems to be ignoring the issue.
My registration certificate V5C has a blank for J - Vehicle Category. I shall ask the DVLA about getting it changed to M1 as suggested in the letter from Rosie Winterton.
M1 does seem to be the correct category (Passenger carrying vehicle for up to 8 passengers).
This blog indicates that the LEZ may have to be more precise and specify M1 as being exempt, in which case we'll be OK?
AAM


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## amac (Apr 21, 2006)

Sorry, I forgot the blog reference:
http://notasheepmaybeagoat.blogspot.com/2007/08/identified-cameras-pt-2.html


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emissions*

amac 
I have looked on our V5C and it is blank but some friends have N1 there but It does state under body type we are a Motor Home and I have been told that is the M1 part, so I to will be checking with the DVLA tomorrow as I think it needs to show it clearly as M1.
I thought it was saying that if we were M1 then we will be exempt but a lot of others are saying that needn't be the case.
I'm getting Emails and phone calls from a lot of people who are now very
confused so It really needs a bigger concern than me to sort it out so we really know where we stand.


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## vardy (Sep 1, 2006)

- Having read the official statement earlier in the thread about targeting 'diesel engined motorcaravans', I am still confused about the difference between N1 and M1.
Even more puzzling are the conflicting comments about conversion i.e. the £3000+ jobbie. Is it true that this would not work, as it is only intended to measure emissions not abate them?
I have had loads of work done to the old beast ( Talbot 1.9D ) and want to keep it as only vehicle/ classic for the future. Mother and relatives are on this route. Plus I reckon Sheffield will 'cotton on' - they never miss a fleecing opportunity! Could anyone clarify in easier language for the dimwitted? Hope you all having good weekend! - Helena.


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## icer (Dec 11, 2006)

Name added
ian


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi apparently Annex 2 of the Scheme Order, specifically includes motorhomes even if they are M class. But even after some time spent searching the net I have been unable to find this order, anybody else know where it is.

Olley


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emissions*

N1 is the classification of the Base ie: Comercial Truck.
M1 is the reclassification after the conversion from a truck to a Leisure Vehicle 
So it is the Engine that is ommitting the Emissions therefore it comes into the LEZ.
Europian Parliment made M1 vehicles exempt and I have tried so hard for that ruling to be in affect in London.
I have sent the letter to the MCC, and Caravan and Camping Head Offices to ask them to Clarify if we all make sure we have M1 on our V5C 
Will we be exempt.
I will let you know of any answer's I recieve.

(Hi
I have had this letter from my MP
I have put it on all forums but some members have N1 and I like others have just Motorhome now is that the M1 category
It has thrown our members as really there are no two V5C's the same.
Infact one member has an MOT that under Emissions it reads 0 so she ask's if My emissions are Zero now can she go through the Zone.
Please this needs someone bigger than me to take this up and tell us 
1) do we have to send our V5C back to get it changed to M1 as no V5C at this present time say's M1
2) If those that read N1 change it to M1 
3) are we then exempt.)

just found another great site http://www.eminox.com/emissions/lez.shtml


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emissions*

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/2526.aspx this is from the Ministry of Transport


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/environment/lowemissionzone/2027.aspx#scheme

here is where M1 is left out but 
Although we are N1 at the base we then get converted to M1 and thats where we are classed as a Leisure Vehicle

Relevant vehicles

4.-(1) A relevant vehicle is a vehicle falling within a specified class that is not-

(a) a compliant vehicle; or

(b) a non-chargeable vehicle.

(2) The classes specified for the purposes of paragraph (1) are Class M2, Class M3, Class N1 subclasses (ii) and (iii), Class N2 and Class N3.


----------



## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

i have found this on a forum
why cant we do it like Germany

From 1 January 2008 a total of 33 German cities will require all motorists to purchase a "Pollution Badge" in the form of a windscreen sticker in order to enter city centre 'Umwelt Zones' (green zones).

The participating cities are: Augsburg, Berlin, Braunschweig, Köln (Cologne), Darmstadt, Dresden, Düsseldorf, Essen, Frankfurt am Main, Hannover, Heidelberg, Islfeld, Karlsruhe, Kassel, Leipzig, Leonburg, Ludwigsburg, Madgeburg, Mannheim, Mühlacker, München (Munich), Neu-Ulm, Nürnberg (Nuremberg), Pforzheim, Pleidelsheim, Regensburg, Reutlingen, Ruhr Area, Schwäbish-Gmund, Stuttgart, Tübingen and Ulm.

You must present your vehicle registration document at Pollution Badge (Umwelt Plakette) sales outlets, including vehicle repair centres, car dealers, MOT (Tüv) stations and vehicle licensing offices, and you will be issued with a badge, coloured (Red/Yellow/Green) according to your vehicle's Euro emission rating.

The cost of the badge is understood to be between €5 and €10 and, once issued, covers you throughout Germany for the life of your vehicle. Failure to display a badge could incur a fine of €40. Enforcement will be managed by the police, local authorities and traffic wardens.

The system seems fairer than the LEZ as it effects all motor vehicles and the badge lasts for the life of the vehicle and covers all the participating cities.

However, legal struggles are still ongoing, especially regarding older motorhomes: The problem is that almost 50% of all German motorhomes are too old to get a Pollution Badge at all, at least without retrofitting a particle filter. And the makers of refit particle filters are not too much interested here, as there would be many different filter models required, each only for a very low total number of vehicles.

So, if it goes as planned then the Umwelt Zone scheme would effectively ground a large number of German motorhomes. To avoid a legal defeat, German authorities currently think about making exceptions: Maybe that owners of affected vehicles who live in an Umwelt Zone will be allowed to travel in and out of their zones. Another discussed model is to make an exception for motorhomes in general.

Meanwhile also the motorhome manufacturers have realized that not - as they had obviously hoped earlier - all owners of such old motorhomes will run and buy shiny new ones. So they now also have started campaigning for exceptions.

The fact that local councils, the federal states, and the federal gouvernment all have their say in this, does not exactly make things easier, so it could even happen that the introduction of Umwelt Zones will be delayed once again.

so please go to my petition and sign it http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/motorhomes/


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Firstly two things strike me about the Boris Johnson thing 

1. The man is clever in his way but has no common sense, he will offend more people in 5 minutes than Ken Livingston has done in his lifetime. (can you imagine the third world countries voting for a London Olympics if Boris had been in the delegation?

2. If the case against older diesel engines is as good as has been expressed I doubt that Boris will change it. Remember promises especially vague ones are very cheap to make.

That said I don't see how residents Motorhomes in the LEZ will make that much difference to pollution. I doubt that many drive one around in London as their vehicle of choice. So perhaps a petition would work but having looked at it I doubt it. If it had been specifically about residents who are already in the LEZ then I think it would have been more compelling.

There is also the issue of retrospective legislation. A lot of legislation enshrines the rights of those who have been doing something that was legal to continue doing it under the new rules (I know there are many exceptions) or when the laws change provide compensation to those affected. That I think is more likely to work as a lever than the current petition. Also the term motorhomes, although well understood here, may conjure up the image of large RVs, 'motor caravan' is what the DVLA call them.

I have signed it but look forward to seeing a better one.

Something along the lines of this draft perhaps.

Exemption for motor caravans for existing owners resident in the LEZ.

Under the currently proposed scope of the LEZ, owners of older motor caravans who reside within the LEZ will have to pay £100 every time they leave and return to their homes. Motor caravans represent an expensive asset but enjoy a long life due to their low mileage and low depreciation. The introduction of the LEZ will force many to sell or scrap their vehicles, and is likely to impact upon the resale value of motor caravans generally. Therefore we call upon the government to either exempt older motor caravans from LEZ charges, (perhaps for a limited number of trips per year) or to adequately compensate them for their loss.


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## 102731 (Jan 30, 2007)

I've said this before and make no apology for repeating it while this topic goes on and on.
Although this petiton is well intentioned, and I'm sure Mavis is working her socks off gathering information etc, it is wrongly targeted. The government devolved powers to the mayor that enable him to do things like this. Having done so, unless he uses those powers to invade France, or anything else a megolomaniac like Ken should get into his head, THEY DON'T GIVE A FLYING F%$& what he does. Get over it!


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## Duadua (Feb 16, 2006)

locovan

Well done and many thanks for your efforts.

bear1

"Get over it" ... I do not find this helpful of friendly. 

£100 per journey to or from your home if you happen to live inside the M25, or in other terms £200 per time away with your MH is not something most people on this planet can contemplate. Whether or not it would be fair or reasonable to charge MH visitors to London and all parts inside the M25, it must surely be unreasonable to penalise those who happen to live within the area and happen to own MH's.

sallytrafic

Thanks, as always, for sensible and balanced response to what I believe has not yet been taken fully on board, by those who happen to live within the M25. 

It may be worth noting that those who live within the Congestion Zone are legible for a much reduced fee to use their motorcars within the Congestion Zone. I think this may be an alternative way to go, rather than to effectively agree a limit on the number of occassions one might use one's MH without penalty. It would seen you could wipe out spontaneous weekend use of the MH very quickly, as it would become altogether too expensive.

To owners of Cummins engines registered in the UK pre October 2006. 

Currently your "imported" engine is unlikely to be recognised by TFL (either on the web site or if you give them a call, as I have done both), and will not therefore be likely to meet the requirements to avoid having to pay £100 per trip to or from your home within the M25 after Jan 2012.

I am currently trying to get advise from Cummins as to what might be required and the order of cost to meet the Euro IV compliance requirements. 

When I have further news I will post again.

What is interesting is that on the Cummins US web page particulate filters are now fitted. But I have no idea, as it is outside my field of expertise, if fitting one of these would solve all our problems. If say it did solve the problems and the cost was reasonable, when compared to the daily "penalty" charge, or say a tank full of diesel, then that may be the only way to go.

Clearly we cannot be against trying to improve our quality of life, but at what cost should also be borne in mind, as we should not be expected to fund every politician's fad or whim.


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

just a thought on this - thinking laterally, maybe,,,

many people have successfully recovered charges from their banks for unreasonable and disproportionate fees when they've gone overdrawn. Surely the £100 a day is a disproportionate charge in relation to the damage suffered to the environment? Could there be a case for suing TFL for any charges on these grounds? 
If they had proposed a fee similar to the congestion charge, or something like the German system, with discounts for residents, or even some sort of carbon offsetting, then this would be more acceptable.


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## 102731 (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: emissions*



locovan said:


> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/2526.aspx this is from the Ministry of Transport


No, it's not. It's from TfL.


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## Duadua (Feb 16, 2006)

Could someone kindly consider joining this thread with

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-329377.html#329377

Just a thought, as they appear similar to me and it might avoid unnecessary duplication if something has already been said on one or other thread.

Many thanks.


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## Duadua (Feb 16, 2006)

For those with American engines I have copied and pasted the following from a Cummins US web site 

"Comparison list of America and Euro standards

Terms for Approximately Equivalent Standards

U.S. EPA ................European Union

Tier 1.....................Stage I
Tier 2.....................Stage II
Tier 3.....................Stage IIIA
Tier 4 - Interim.......Stage IIIB
Tier 4 - Final ..........Stage IV"


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2007)

Just a thought really - I haven't been on London bus for years, last time I did, it was at least twenty years old, (I know because I did some development work on it) Are all the busses in London less than five years old now?

Tco


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## Duadua (Feb 16, 2006)

Probably, if not very nearly.

Again you see Red Ken, if we can call him that, has been spending all our money on new Red buses and Red routes and has scrapped all but two routes of the much loved Red Route Masters.

Furthermore we now have a hell of a lot of Red bendy buses which make an RV, of any colour, look very short! 

From memory Red bendy buses maybe about 18 m long.

So not only have we to pay for these new Red buses but we have also had to replace cyclists, motorcyclists and pedestrians etc. as they have been wiped out at junctions more than ever before.

Never a question asked. Never a Red face. Or, if the question has been asked .... the response has been ignored. But still not a Red face to be seen except, I fear, beneath a new bendy Red bus!


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## Duadua (Feb 16, 2006)

Seems the two threads have been joined seamlessly.

Many thanks.


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emissions zone*

I will keep giving all the info I get as I feel so strongly about it.
There is not a conversion out for my Motorhome and Fiat said they wont do one as It wasnt cost effective and all motorhome manufactures are saying the same. 
anyway read the following 
latest info from the Forum of the MCC
Hi, I dont know how many of you are aware of the new legislation concerning diesel.
As of Jan 08 a new 10ppm diesel compared with the 50 ppm diesel we buy now is being implemented, so surely the powers to be will have to recalculate vehicles emissions, as with 10ppm diesel we will all be producing lower emissions.
Only snag with the new 10ppm diesel is it wil cost about 2p per litre more, as it takes longer to refine, to remove the excess sulphur, this along with the proposed duty increase in March could see us paying another 4p per litre. Later on next year they will be implementing a 10ppm unleaded petrol.
For technical information on the above visit
http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9014507&contentId=7027516

*Now Read this a letter to One of our COM at the MCC *and see what you make of it as one minister is telling me to get the M1 on my V5C and this says we are not M1 but that M1 is exempt or am I reading it wrong

11th December 2007
London Low Emission Zone (LEZ) - L1657776 / LR
Thank you for your recent enquiry received on 10th December 2007, about the LEZ Scheme.
Vehicles classed as M1 are not subject to the LEZ.
All diesel-engined motor caravans that are greater than 2.5 tonnes Gross Vehicle Weight are
subject to the LEZ Scheme.
As the Scheme will have a phased introduction, only diesel-engined motor caravans over 12
tonnes Gross Vehicle Weight will be subject to the Scheme from 4th February 2008. These
vehicles will be required to meet an emission standard of Euro III to be used in the Zone without
paying the daily charge.
From 7th July 2008, all diesel-engined motor caravans weighing between 3.5 and 12 tonnes
Gross Vehicle Weight will be required to meet this standard.
From October 2010, all diesel-engined motor caravans weighing between 2.5 and 3.5 tonnes
Gross Vehicle Weight will also be required to meet the Euro III standard.
From January 2012, all diesel-engined motor caravans weighing over 3.5 tonnes Gross Vehicle
Weight will be required to meet an emission standard of Euro IV.
If the vehicle has been classed as N1 it will be subject to the LEZ. Vehicles classified as M1 are
cars. Motor caravans will not be classified as M1.
If you have any questions regarding the Scheme you may find it useful to visit our website, just
log on to www.tfl.gov.uk/lezlondon. You may also telephone our Contact Centre on 0845 607
0009, Textphone 0207 310 8999 (if you have impaired hearing), where a member of staff will be
more than happy to help.
Thank you for contacting Transport for London.
Daljit Mahal
Operations Manager
Yours faithfully
London Low Emission Zone
MAYOR OF


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## 108784 (Dec 17, 2007)

*New Member - Just Inside Zone*

Hello everyone. Have just joined forum so take it easy on me!

I've just spotted the LEZ signs going up in my area and am literally a few hundred yards inside the zone in Bexley. Whether they'll be cameras on the route to my house I'll have to wait and see...

My question is, on my V5C it states my van's Revenue Weight is 2665kg Unladen. Does this mean that this is the weight of my van without people/clothes etc...? If so, I think I shouldn't be liable until October 2010 , and yet when I put in my registration number to TFL's website, it says I'm liable from July 2008.

Can anyone offer any advice or clarification ?

Many thanks.


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emissions*

Yes it does mean completly empty with no fuel etc.
I dont understand you are well under 3.5 ton so I believe someone has got it wrong as it should be compliant until 2010.
Please check with the DVLA.
this link has everything on it
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/default.aspx?lang=en
This is what I get when I put my Reg and mine is P reg

From date Status 
04/02/2008 Not subject to LEZ Further info 
04/10/2010 Non-compliant Further info 
Further information for 04/02/2008 Not subject to LEZ - Based on the information you have entered and information held by Transport for London (TfL), the Low Emission Zone (LEZ) does not apply to this vehicle. As long as the vehicle remains not subject to the LEZ the daily charge does not have to be paid for this vehicle when it is used in the Zone.

Emissions classification for these dates is based on the Vehicle Type and the age of the vehicle.
As the Scheme will have a phased introduction, only diesel-engined motor caravans over 12
tonnes Gross Vehicle Weight will be subject to the Scheme from 4th February 2008. 
These vehicles will be required to meet an emission standard of Euro III to be used in the Zone without
paying the daily charge.
When the weight is mentioned it states:-
From 7th July 2008, all diesel-engined motor caravans weighing between 3.5 and 12 tonnes
Gross Vehicle Weight will be required to meet this standard.
From October 2010, all diesel-engined motor caravans weighing between 2.5 and 3.5 tonnes
Gross Vehicle Weight will also be required to meet the Euro III standard.
From January 2012, all diesel-engined motor caravans weighing over 3.5 tonnes Gross Vehicle


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emissions*

Please read your MMM's page 207 and get 7 quotes as they ask


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

Hi Just found this on MMM forum and it is a great help to those travelling in germany
From 1 January 2008 a total of 33 German cities will require all motorists to purchase a "Pollution Badge" in the form of a windscreen sticker in order to enter city centre 'Umwelt Zones' (green zones).

The participating cities are: Augsburg, Berlin, Braunschweig, Köln (Cologne), Darmstadt, Dresden, Düsseldorf, Essen, Frankfurt am Main, Hannover, Heidelberg, Islfeld, Karlsruhe, Kassel, Leipzig, Leonburg, Ludwigsburg, Madgeburg, Mannheim, Mühlacker, München (Munich), Neu-Ulm, Nürnberg (Nuremberg), Pforzheim, Pleidelsheim, Regensburg, Reutlingen, Ruhr Area, Schwäbish-Gmund, Stuttgart, Tübingen and Ulm.

You must present your vehicle registration document at Pollution Badge (Umwelt Plakette) sales outlets, including vehicle repair centres, car dealers, MOT (Tüv) stations and vehicle licensing offices, and you will be issued with a badge, coloured (Red/Yellow/Green) according to your vehicle's Euro emission rating.

The cost of the badge is understood to be between €5 and €10 and, once issued, covers you throughout Germany for the life of your vehicle. Failure to display a badge could incur a fine of €40. Enforcement will be managed by the police, local authorities and traffic wardens.

This website gives a lot of information (in German): http://www.umwelt-plakette.de 
Also http://www.umwelt-plakette.de/umwel...o Englisch.pdf?SID=q0j3lb93ftbufcg576a3aq6914


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

*Re: New Member - Just Inside Zone*



jimf said:


> Hello everyone. Have just joined forum so take it easy on me!
> 
> I've just spotted the LEZ signs going up in my area and am literally a few hundred yards inside the zone in Bexley. Whether they'll be cameras on the route to my house I'll have to wait and see...
> 
> ...


In the case of a motor caravan it is the gross vehicle weight (MAM?) (on a plate not on V5C which often quotes the revenue weight) Does your V5C state body type as Motor Caravan many conversions still say panel van this may be your problem.


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## 104712 (May 25, 2007)

signed, im buggered I saw the signs going up last week a mile up the road from where I live, i cant believe it!


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emissions*

Did you honestly not know until the signs went up.
Thats what I find wrong every Camping Club should be advertising it There should be full scale advertising by the goverment as people are only going to know when the fines start coming through the door because we are the only leisure vehicles (I believe) involved most people think it only applies to Heavy Goods and it doesnt it applies to US!!!
Thankyou for signing the petition.


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## 104712 (May 25, 2007)

*Re: emissions*



locovan said:


> Did you honestly not know until the signs went up.
> Thats what I find wrong every Camping Club should be advertising it There should be full scale advertising by the goverment as people are only going to know when the fines start coming through the door because we are the only leisure vehicles (I believe) involved most people think it only applies to Heavy Goods and it doesnt it applies to US!!!
> Thankyou for signing the petition.


HI,

I came home from the christmas break at my parents and saw the signs as i got onto the A224 (orpington, kent)

I live about a mile or so inside where the sign was posted!

I know a few back routes but,will they have cameras on them too!
.
I only got the van last year, Im gutted.


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## THEPOET (May 1, 2007)

Petition Signed. 


This is yet another rip off. If there really is a need to charge a polution TAX.. then the German system seen a far fairer way to do it!

Maybe we should do like the American Embassy staff do with the Congestion TAX and all refuse to pay
(tongue in cheek :evil: )

Pete


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## garye14 (Feb 6, 2006)

Signed

G.


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emissions*

*I know a few back routes but,will they have cameras on them too! 
*

Yes Camera's are going up on all main Exits from the M25 first then all back roads will be covered after that.

*then the German system seen a far fairer way to do it! *

The German and European system is fairer, a one off charge for the life of the Motorhome, as then it would phase in as the new vehicles comply but Kens way means it is going to affect almost everybody in time unless you trade in each year.

If there are 6000 Motorhomers registered in London as they live there but there are many who visit or rally then why are there only 422 people signing??
I think because if they havent a computer and they dont belong to a club there is still many who do not know so Im pleased I ran it for 1year because they are about to find out the hard way.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/motorhomes/


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## B1ondini (Mar 19, 2007)

Signed up.

Every time I sign up to one of these on-line petitions, they are always thrown out (obviously after being given full consideration by our MP's).

Has anyone signed up to one that has been successful in the past?


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emisions*

http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page9709.asp
I have checked back on all the replies to petitions and they at least get an answer.
At least people didnt sit back and do nothing about what they think is an injustice.
E mail petitions have taken away the need to stand in the High Street (in my case standing on the A2 at the traffic Lights) and get people to sign and then have to march up to Downing street to hand over a get pile of papers.
I know all my hard effects may go to pot but I cant stand by and let them fine my London friends £200 per day just because they move their Motorhome to go away for a relaxing holiday and my self when I rally in the London Area or use Blackwall Tunnel.
The LEZ is for Heavy Goods Vehicles not Leisure vehicles used for a holiday or a rally at the weekend by people who for many reasons ie:- because they have children,are disabled, pensioners, have animals, or because they just love the open road and most of all we Love camping.
We havent all got this years model but we love our Motorhomes so all we ask is that we are allowed to live our life how we wish to.


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## 102731 (Jan 30, 2007)

I believe the start of the zone has been postponed by 4 weeks. Anyone know why?


----------



## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emisions*

On the news this morning Transport for London have given everybody another 4 weeks grace to get their vehicles prepared for the emission zone.


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## 102731 (Jan 30, 2007)

Interestingly, at 04:35pm there was nothing about this postponement in the TfL website!


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## 94639 (May 1, 2005)

The story is on the BBC News Web Site. It appears that the LEZ will still start on 4th February but in the first 28 days "Failing vehicles will be issued with a warning letter the first time they are seen in the zone".

Whether that means that if a failing vehicle enters the zone more than once it will be charged for every time except the first remains to be seen


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## LeoK (Apr 21, 2006)

*Petition Signed*

Petition Signed.

Although we all know that 'they' will respond to the effect that the London Emission Zone (LEZ) is the responsibility of Mayor Ken, and that there is nothing that the government can do about it.

Followed by a thorough ignoring.

We must try though !


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

I haven't signed it for several reasons. I guess my bottom line is that something has to be done about polution but;

I agree with Frank, I think it is the wrong approach and I do not agree with the wording. I do however think they could have given residents in the area longer to modify/change vehicles.

I don't know about the CC&C but the CC has two sites in the LEZ and has lobbied for exceptions to be made. In the past it has had some influence on legislation but was not successful this time when it though it was! I doubt they have not lobbied hard enough on members behalf and if they cannot succeed, I doubt a petition will.

There are answers to the problem. For us not living in the zone, stay out of it until you have a compliant vehicle. For those living in the zone, store your motorhome out of it if you do not want/cannot modify/change the vehicle.


peedee


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emisions*

Hi Peedee I agree with what you say but why are they being so greedy about it? Why cant they issue a 1 off price like the Germans which is by far a fairer option.
I keep saying it but £200 per day is some charge.
It wont cure the problem anyway as the whole of the M25 is to blame for much of the Emmisions and the Planes overhead in the sky (they couldnt have helped when they were taking measurements to check what the emmissions were) it isnt only the London Traffic that causes the haze on a summers day.
Until we become a nation of nuclear power and our vehicles are all powered by solar energy there is no answer
Can you afford to throw your vehicle's away every three years up to 2020
(because they are going to reduce emmissions in stages up to 2020) It just wont stay in London. this will be all over the country like the congestion charge.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

*Re: emisions*



locovan said:


> Hi Peedee I agree with what you say but why are they being so greedy about it? Why cant they issue a 1 off price like the Germans which is by far a fairer option.
> I keep saying it but £200 per day is some charge.


For the same reason you are advocating it, it would not be a deterrent.



locovan said:


> It wont cure the problem anyway as the whole of the M25 is to blame for much of the Emissions and the Planes overhead in the sky (they couldnt have helped when they were taking measurements to check what the emmissions were) it isnt only the London Traffic that causes the haze on a summers day.


Well you have to start somewhere, the congestion zone has been a success and I would imagine that traffic in London is the biggest polluter.
It is some time since I have been into London but I certainly used to notice it when I was a commuter.



locovan said:


> Until we become a nation of nuclear power and our vehicles are all powered by solar energy there is no answer


Disagree you can minimise pollution and that is what we should be doing as well as encouraging development of cleaner sources of fuel. You can also convert your motorhome to LPG???



locovan said:


> Can you afford to throw your vehicle's away every three years up to 2020
> (because they are going to reduce emmissions in stages up to 2020) It just wont stay in London. this will be all over the country like the congestion charge.


Of course not that is why I think it would have been fairer to allow residents a longer period of time to comply.

peedee


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## 102731 (Jan 30, 2007)

locovan said:


> Hi Just found this on MMM forum and it is a great help to those travelling in germany
> From 1 January 2008 a total of 33 German cities will require all motorists to purchase a "Pollution Badge" in the form of a windscreen sticker in order to enter city centre 'Umwelt Zones' (green zones).
> 
> The participating cities are: Augsburg, Berlin, Braunschweig, Köln (Cologne), Darmstadt, Dresden, Düsseldorf, Essen, Frankfurt am Main, Hannover, Heidelberg, Islfeld, Karlsruhe, Kassel, Leipzig, Leonburg, Ludwigsburg, Madgeburg, Mannheim, Mühlacker, München (Munich), Neu-Ulm, Nürnberg (Nuremberg), Pforzheim, Pleidelsheim, Regensburg, Reutlingen, Ruhr Area, Schwäbish-Gmund, Stuttgart, Tübingen and Ulm.
> ...


UNFORTUNATELY, this does NOT mean anyone can drive into these green environmental areas. If you look at the first of these web sites (which are available as translations into English) you will find that the badge simply indicates that your vehicle complies with laid down emmissions targets. As a visitor you submit details of your vehicle in advance and, if you comply, you will get a badge, if not you cannot enter these zones. Penalty for illegally entering is from €40/day.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

peedee said:


> I haven't signed it for several reasons. I guess my bottom line is that something has to be done about polution but;
> 
> I agree with Frank, I think it is the wrong approach and I do not agree with the wording. I do however think they could have given residents in the area longer to modify/change vehicles.
> 
> ...


As well as signing the petition which like peedee i didn't agree with i made the following 'complaint' on their website, which was on the lines of my suggested improvement to the petition.

Exemption for motor caravans for existing owners resident in the LEZ.

As I understand the currently proposed scope of the LEZ, owners of older motor caravans who reside within the LEZ will have to pay £100 every time they leave and return to their homes. Motor caravans represent an expensive asset but enjoy a long life due to their low mileage and low depreciation. The introduction of the LEZ will force many to sell or scrap their vehicles, and is likely to impact upon the resale value of motor caravans generally. Therefore I call upon TfL to either exempt older motor caravans from LEZ charges, (perhaps for a limited number of trips per year) or to adequately compensate them for their loss.

Anyone who wants can enter a similar 'complaint' or 'enquiry' at >LEZ<


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emisions*

Im sorry if I hadnt made it plainer but i keep saying on all the forums I raised the petition because we in the MCC and Caravan and Camping have members who live in the London area who will not be able to move their vans.
We also rally at Blackheath to see the fireworks and the marathon and so many of our members will not be able to do this and we are not only talking about old vans like my P reg but anything older than 2002 (at the moment)
My husband has contacted many companies who are in the process of manufacturing conversions but they all say they are concentrating production on Heavy Goods vehicles first and Motorhomes are not classified as HGV they are PLG.

now i have just had an email from the ministry they 2 have put me in my place
Mavis Nye
By e-mail
Our ref: RLTD 4/7/04

Dear Ms Nye

Thank you for your e-mail of 6 January addressed to the Minister of State for Transport, about the London Low Emission zone (LLEZ). As you will appreciate, the Minister receives large volumes of correspondence from members of the public and is, unfortunately, unable to answer each personally. Therefore, I have been asked to reply.

I would like to explain that Parliament gave the Mayor of London the powers to introduce road charging schemes in greater London in the Greater London Authority (GLA) Act 1999 (as amended by the Transport Act 2000), which created the Greater London Authority. Therefore the legislation being used to implement the LLEZ has already been through the Parliamentary process.

Following the creation of the Greater London Authority, Transport for London (TfL) (under the Mayor's jurisdiction) is now responsible for the day to day management of transport services in London (with the exception of National rail at present). The LLEZ is the responsibility of the Mayor of London and is being taken forward by TfL on his behalf. The aim of the scheme is to improve air quality for those living, working or studying in London, as well as to help London and the UK move closer to achieving national and EU air quality targets. The Government remains committed to improving air quality and the Department for Transport support the aims of the LLEZ.

I would also like to explain that all affected vehicles operating within the LLEZ must be registered with TfL, although most vehicles registered in Great Britain will not need to register as this will be done automatically. Registration with TfL only needs to be done once and is free. Only vehicles that are going to be driven in the zone need to be registered. However, a vehicle that is not registered with TfL (London) and driven in the zone will be liable for the daily charge of £200.

If you require further details regarding the proposed operation of the LLEZ, you can call the LLEZ helpline on 0845 607 0009 or write to Low Emission Zone Contact Centre, PO Box 4544, Coventry, CV6 9DW.

I hope this is helpful and that it explains the position.

Yours sincerely

Gordon Rolfe
London Transport Division 5
Department for Transport
Zone 3/26
76 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DR
Tel: 020 7944 8824
Fax: 020 7944 6011


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

*Re: emisions*



locovan said:


> Im sorry if I hadnt made it plainer but i keep saying on all the forums I raised the petition because we in the MCC and Caravan and Camping have members who live in the London area who will not be able to move their vans.
> We also rally at Blackheath to see the fireworks and the marathon and so many of our members will not be able to do this and we are not only talking about old vans like my P reg but anything older than 2002 (at the moment)
> My husband has contacted many companies who are in the process of manufacturing conversions but they all say they are concentrating production on Heavy Goods vehicles first and Motorhomes are not classified as HGV they are PLG.
> 
> ...


If you have replied as a result of my post locovan . It is exactly because the power is devolved to TfL that I have complained to them.


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## LeoK (Apr 21, 2006)

*Re: emisions*



locovan said:


> "I would like to explain that Parliament gave the Mayor of London the powers to introduce road charging schemes in greater London in the Greater London Authority (GLA) Act 1999 (as amended by the Transport Act 2000), which created the Greater London Authority. Therefore the legislation being used to implement the LLEZ has already been through the Parliamentary process.
> 
> Following the creation of the Greater London Authority, Transport for London (TfL) (under the Mayor's jurisdiction) is now responsible for the day to day management of transport services in London (with the exception of National rail at present). The LLEZ is the responsibility of the Mayor of London and is being taken forward by TfL on his behalf. The aim of the scheme is to improve air quality for those living, working or studying in London, as well as to help London and the UK move closer to achieving national and EU air quality targets. The Government remains committed to improving air quality and the Department for Transport support the aims of the LLEZ. "


As I said, Nothing to do with Government, it's all to do with Mayor Ken.

However, Complaint also filed to TfL, who will also give it a good ignoring.


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## 102731 (Jan 30, 2007)

This is my complaint which I have just posted

Whilst agreeing with the need to reduce certain emissions I find that the "penalties" to be levied for those vehicles which do not comply, to be excessive and against natural justice. Looking at the model for cities in Germany, for instance, shows a more tolerable figure of €40. Many owners of non-compliant motorhomes live within the zone and are now virtually captive as they cannot leave home without paying. Surely that is not the intention?

And as I have said in previous posts, although well intentioned, the petition was a complete waste of time! The effort should have been, and still should be, directed at Livingstone and TfL.


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## brendan (May 9, 2005)

*LEZ*

I'm not sure that this is a problem for most Motor Homes. TFL have a section on their site where you can type in your vehicle's Reg No. and they will indicate if you are exempt or not. Mine was given the all clear when I Entered details.
Brendan


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emisions*

If you read back through all my postings you will see I have been a thorn in the side of Ken Livingstone for a long time infact for over a year now and I have got nowhere. I tried on the point that we were M1 vehicles and so exempt and I had the backing of my local MP but even he couldnt get anywhere.

There are about 6000 motorhomes registered for London so even if 20% were Registered before 2002 thats a large amount just stuck on a drive unable to move as conversion kits are not availabl yet because they are concentrating on heavy Goods first not PLG.
We then have the visitors and holiday makers that love to tour around the country in their "older vans" and they wont be able to turn off to the London side of the M25 to the campsites or to attend a Rally or just visit.
I know Im loosing the battle but I did start this off as i was angry at the high amount they are going to fine people and nobody knew about it but at least it is getting around now but there are a lot of Motorhomers that havent a computer and do not belong to a club and Im amazed at the amount of Motorhomer that think it is only about heavy Goods.

A PS to this is please check with the DVLA what weight they have your van registered at as two members in the Kent MCC have found they have theirs registered too heavy and they are down for July 2008 instead of 2010


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## dragstar (Jun 26, 2006)

Just checked to see if i am compliant looks as if i am good till 2010 and mine is just under 4 years old, i think that if you live in the affected area you should pay a lesser charge, i can see that we might have to think about fitting the A frame to the motorhome as well as the car i assume that if it is towed it will not incur a charge.
I take it that travelling on the M25 does not warrant a charge it only applys if you go into the affected areas i hope, all though having said that they should be paying us to use it

It will be interesting to see which of the sat nav companies bring out the LEZ mapping


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emisions*

No the M25 doesnt come under Ken (thank goodness) it is only if you come off on the London side.
Mind you the emissions must travel from the M25 so will he put giant fans up to blow it away from London?
The cameras are roughly within the first mile as you pass the M25 on the A2 but I dont know where they are on all the other roads.
That is what I find hard to understand didnt they know about this before 2004 that they could have started talking to the Manufactures of class N1 so that engines could be cleaner???
Those that are being built now will not comply in 2012 as they havent got the Technology to build a desiel egine that will meet the ommissions predicted for 2012 and as this is going on to the 2020 deadline ??????
That is a very valid point about SAt Nav's they should warn of congestion areas and omission zones


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*emisions*

As the date draws nearer for the start of the LEZ I have had a reply from the European Parliment

Sent: Monday, 28 January, 2008 4:20:19 PM
Subject: A(2007)22511GCH/sm

A(2007)22511GCH/sm

Dear Ms. Nye,
Thank you for your message to the European Parliament concerning classification of motorhomes.
This is a matter for the UK authorities, in this case, it would appear, the DVLA.
The European Parliament has no competence in this matter, which is internal to the UK . 
Even if the classification of vehicles is the result originally of an EU Directive, such Directives, once agreed by the Member States, are then transposed by each member-state into its own national law.
The rules concerning the classification of vehicles in the UK will therefore be found in UK law or ministerial decision.
In your situation, I would contact the Ministry of Transport to find out what the DVLA does not appear to know.
You might also enlist the help of one of the motoring organizations such as the AA or RAC and perhaps the Caravan Club of Great Britain, which must have had similar enquiries.
Sincerely,
Graham R.CHAMBERS
Principal Administrator
-----------------------------------------------
European Parliament
General Directorate for Information
Correspondence with Citizens Unit

So This is as far as I can go
All correspondence indicates that the
power/responsibility is totally that of the GLA and further lobbying
of the EU/Westminster would be fruitless.
Thanks for all the support and I can always say I tried
Regards mavis


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## 108717 (Dec 12, 2007)

I think the sadddest thing about this is that we live in a country somewhat retarded when it comes to motorhomes. We go the Europe and its positively encouraged. However, over here, as homegrowns, most of us would rather poke ourselves in the eye with a sharp object than go into London in a Motorhome so the response is somewhat half-baked. 

Look at it the other way round. What are we saying to our equivalents in mainland Europe? You can come and visit our wonderful capital city but you can't go too close? You'll have to catch our really sh*t public transport system instead and suffer it for 4 times as long as you would if you stayed at a site within the M25?

I used to stay at least once a month at the site behind the UCI cinema on the Lee Valley. I worked not far away but the site was always full of mainland European Motorhomes, some older too, all visiting a vibrant city as we should be encouraging. These people aren't rattling round Trafalgar Square in their Hymers, they just pitch up and hop on the tube. But now they have to pitch miles out.

I travel in Europe all the time and also have an office in London whilst living in the north. And what makes me really angry is that London has the crap*est hotels in Europe (Amsterdam excepted) unless you want to part with minimum £110.00 a night midweek. And that's no joke. Please don't quote Travelodges etc as they vary from fine to truly rancid with no guarantees. I have business associates I meet at London trade shows and I whince when they tell me where they are staying and what they are paying. We should be ashamed of the price to comfort ratio of our hotels. And now you can't even bring your own home with you unless it's fairly new.

I just don't get this motorhome inclusion. If ever there was a bunch of people getting out there and fully appreciating congestion whilst appreciating the value of the environment it has to be motorhomers. It's fine to whizz off for a stag-do in Prague but come to London in an older Motorhome and you will be charged humungous amounts of cash if you don't read the signs right.

Hope I haven't missed the key facts here. i've been watching this from afar for a few weeks but have to confess I haven't studied the fine details. But even from a somewhat ill-informed distant viewpoint I can't see this endearing us to our compatriates the other side of the canal.


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## 108717 (Dec 12, 2007)

*Re: emisions*



locovan said:


> The cameras are roughly within the first mile as you pass the M25 on the A2 but I dont know where they are on all the other roads.


I drove into London last week and they are now prevelant just before London Gateway Services on the Northern approach if you head south down the M1.


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## 102731 (Jan 30, 2007)

Seems to me that someone should bring an action in the European court of Human Rights. What I don't understand is that I thought a common thread to all legislation in this country is that it will not be retrospective. Isn't this legislation retrospective or is there some slimy way of getting round it? If there is then Ken will find it!


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## 102731 (Jan 30, 2007)

I may have made criticism in the past about the methods being used to right this massive wrong being perpetrated on some of our London cousins, but to prove that I care about their plight and that I don't just moan without getting up off my bum and doing something please read on.

*As you can see this was sent to Mr Livingstone last December. To date, despite a reminder, no reply!*

From: "rmurray" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected] .uk
Subject: L E Z
Date: 11-Dec-2007 17:29:15 GMT

Dear Mr Livingstone,

Re London Emissions Zone

I am a member of a number of forums related to motor homes.
As you are aware, many motor home owners are vexed by the
proposals by TfL to charge older, diesel, motor homes which
are non-compliant.
I appreciate that there is a need to reduce harmful
emissions which may be produced by diesel engines, but
cannot believe that it was your intention to so severely
punish the small number of owners of, admittedly,
non-compliant vehicles.
As a result of these proposals, many owners of such vehicles
will be forced to scrap them, as making them compliant is
either not technically feasible or prohibitively expensive.
I know it is within your power to exempt motor homes from
the daily charge and would urge you to give this some more
thought as many people consider the implementation of
charging in this situation to be iniquitous.

Regards, Robert Murray

*This from TfL as a response to my email of 22/1 which is repeated in their email. Again, despite a reminder, no response!*

Murray,
22nd January 2008
Re: London Low Emission Zone (LEZ) Web Enquiry
Thank you for your enquiry.
*Your enquiry was:
Whilst agreeing with the need to reduce certain emissions I find that the "penalties" to be levied
for those vehicles which do not comply, to be excessive and against natural justice. Looking at
the model for cities in Germany, for instance, shows a more tolerable figure of €40. Many
owners of non-compliant motorhomes live within the zone and are now virtually captive as they
cannot leave home without paying. Surely that is not the intention?*
Your reference number is: L1682675
Please retain this number as you will need to quote it should you contact us regarding this
enquiry.
*Our dedicated Contact Centre team will deal with your enquiry, and a response will be sent via
your preferred method of contact within 2 working days*.
Daljit Mahal
Operations Manager
Yours sincerely
London Low Emission Zone


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

As a passing thought, has anyone checked to see if the new Fiat chassis are compliant. When I have looked to see where Mercedes are on a list I do not recall seeing any Fiat engines on the lists of compliance that I have checked?

peedee


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## LeoK (Apr 21, 2006)

Seems that I have had a different reaction to my 'comment' on the LEZ site. 

I have received a nice letter which carefully regurgitated the regulations, already made abundantly clear on their site. 

It would appear that they read no further than the word 'Motorhomes' within my message because I was not requesting that they explained the rules but that they would reconsider because ... 

Ah... for administrators that can read.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

LeoK said:


> Seems that I have had a different reaction to my 'comment' on the LEZ site.
> 
> I have received a nice letter which carefully regurgitated the regulations, already made abundantly clear on their site.
> 
> ...


I had a similar letter and have replied. That will teach Daljit Mahal not to have his name on Form Letters that his underlings send out willynilly.


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

peedee said:


> As a passing thought, has anyone checked to see if the new Fiat chassis are compliant.


Yup, my van is compliant until at least 2010, when the "Euro III" standard will be applied (it's less then 3.5t). The site 'assumes' all vans built after January 1st 2002 will comply with this.

From January 2012 the Euro IV standard will be applied to all vans and lorries *over 3.5t.*

I'm sure mine is compliant with Euro IV anyway, but the "compliance testing" section of the website seems to be very slow :roll: Busy, I expect. :wink: I think I remember it verifying this when I looked a few months ago. I don't know when the Euro IV will be applied to vans under 3.5t - nothing on the website at the mo.

Gerald

_Edit: explanation :: here ::_


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## WingPete (Jan 29, 2006)

*Exempt Vehicles*

Among the few exemptions are "showmens & fun fair travellers vehicles"
so I reckon if you claim to be a juggler or perhaps a clown (!), aven a trapeze artiste, then you can claim to be exempt ?
Its all swings and roundabouts anyway :roll:


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## 102731 (Jan 30, 2007)

Yesterday I posted my enquiry to TfL regarding the LEZ as repeated here:

Whilst agreeing with the need to reduce certain emissions I find that the "penalties" to be levied
for those vehicles which do not comply, to be excessive and against natural justice. Looking at
the model for cities in Germany, for instance, shows a more tolerable figure of €40. Many
owners of non-compliant motorhomes live within the zone and are now virtually captive as they
cannot leave home without paying. Surely that is not the intention?

Today I have received a written reply from the Coventry office of Daljit Mahal (in an envelope on which has been handwritten "AIRMAIL"! Following is his response.

Thank you for your recent enquiry received on 22nd January 2008, regarding the LEZ scheme.
The daily charge of £100 for motor homes is a substantial amount, because if what (sic) was only £20 or £30, most _customers_ (my italics)would be happy to pay this amount, but this would not achieve the objective it was meant to do, as vehicles would still be polluting the air. The objective is cleaner air for Greater London.
The LEZ Scheme isn't designed to be a net revenue generating Scheme. The revenues of the Scheme aren't expected to offset the costs of implementing and operating the Scheme. There may be some gross revenues from the LEZ Scheme raised through charge and penalty charge payments and these would contribute towards the operating costs of the Scheme.

Nice to see that he has read and comprehended my letter and has so succinctly answered the questions posed therein!!


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## 102731 (Jan 30, 2007)

Here's another letter on the subject which I sent to David Cameron via his website:

_Comments:
Although late in the day,I am contacting you with regard to the proposed penalties to be levied on diesel powered motor homes on crossing into and out of this zone. Whilst fully appreciating that harmful emissions need to be reduced the charge of £100 per
crossing is wildly excessive and against natural justice. In Germany, for instance,the charge in their similar scheme is €40. I hope that you may be able to convince Mayor Livingstone of the unfairness of this charge. Does Boris Johnson,when he is elected, plan to address this matter?_

And here's his reply:

_Thank you for your email which has come into David Cameron's inbox via the
Conservative Party website.

We are most grateful to you for your comments and we certainly take note of the points you make. I have also ensured that Boris Johnson's team have your email for their further consideration.

Thank you again for writing.

Yours sincerely,

David Beal
Correspondence Secretary
David Cameron's Office
House of Commons
London 
SW1A 0AA_


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## 102731 (Jan 30, 2007)

Here's the response to my email to Ken:

Our ref: TFL074681

31 January 2008

Dear Mr Murray

London Low Emission Zone: Motorcaravans

Thank you for your email of 12 December 2007 to the Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, regarding the Low Emission Zone (LEZ). As a member of the Low Emission Team I have been asked to respond on the Mayor's behalf. Firstly let me apologise that you have not received a response sooner; this was due to an administrative error.

The aim of the LEZ is to improve air quality in London by deterring the most individually polluting vehicles from driving in the area. London has the worst air pollution in the UK and amongst the worst in Europe. Air pollution affects the quality of life of a large number of Londoners, especially those with respiratory and cardiovascular conditions. It was estimated that in 2005 some 1000 premature deaths and similar number of hospital admissions occurred due to poor air quality in London. Many more people experience discomfort as a result of air quality aggravating existing conditions.

Whilst we are sympathetic to your situation, Transport for London (TfL) does not discount or exempt motorcaravans from the LEZ as there are no technical reasons why such vehicles could not comply with the scheme. Motorcaravans have similar emissions characteristics to the Heavy Goods Vehicles (HGVs) and Light Goods Vehicles (LGVs) from which they are derived, and as such TfL and the Mayor consider that they should be subject to the same emissions requirements whether they are for commercial or private use.

Operators of vehicles which do not meet the specified emissions standards for the LEZ have several options to comply with the scheme including: 
•	Certifying that an eligible engine meets the required standard. 
•	Fitting particulate abatement equipment to the vehicle. It should be possible to fit such equipment to reduce a vehicle's particulate matter emissions sufficiently to meet the LEZ emissions standard. Normally this would either be a particulate trap or a partial filter. Information on approved abatement equipment and suppliers for fitting such equipment can be found on TfL's website at www.tfl.gov.uk/lezlondon, together with the processes for getting approved abatement equipment certified once fitted. 
•	Re-engine a vehicle with an engine that meets the LEZ emissions standards
•	Converting a vehicle to gas
•	Purchasing a newer vehicle that meets the LEZ emissions standards.
•	Paying a daily charge.

If you require any more information on the Low Emission Zone, Transport for London (TfL) have set up a dedicated enquiries service to help vehicle owners understand what the LEZ means for them and what they may have to do to comply with the scheme. TfL's website www.tfl.gov.uk/lezlondon provides much detailed information about the LEZ, alternatively call the dedicated call centre on 0845 607 0009.

Thank you once again for writing, I am sorry this is not the response you were hoping for.

Yours sincerely

Rhona Munck	
Strategy Officer
London Low Emission Zone


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## camper69 (Aug 30, 2007)

When i first read about this I am sure that my m/h was only exempt till July 2008.

I have just been on the LEZ website (here) and checked again and mine m/h is now exempt till Oct 2010.

Great news !

Derek


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

camper69 said:


> When i first read about this I am sure that my m/h was only exempt till July 2008.
> 
> I have just been on the LEZ website (here) and checked again and mine m/h is now exempt till Oct 2010.
> 
> ...


Hi Derek,

I've just checked ours again, and there's no mistaking it....Non Compliant after 07/07/08, ie £200 on the way in and £200 on the way out again. 8O 8O 8O

Not blooming likely. :evil: :evil: :evil:

We have booked into the CC's Abbey Wood site next weekend, in order to do a show and a meal before the cut off date.

Jock.


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## RussandPenny (May 21, 2008)

I've just checked, and luckily our motorhome is old enough to be compliant 

Naturally I've signed the petition anyway, because it's sure to affect me some day...

Anyway, whilst Googling I cam across this seemingly simple and cost effective solution that may be of interest to others:

http://www.per-tec.com/

Website drivel as follows: :? 
Per-Tec was formed by Peter Kukla, in 1998, to develop and commercialise a unique approach to diesel particulate reduction technology, called PowerTrap, principally for small and medium sized commercial vehicle diesel engines.

Per-Tec has now been accredited to supply product to the London Low Emission Zone project and has chosen to concentrate on 3.5t to 28t vehicles.

Per-Tec is dedicated to providing product that is maintenance free, competitively priced and straightforward to install.

The Per-Tec PowerTrap was accredited by the UK Government's Energy Savings Trust as part of their CleanUp Register in 2003. Through that scheme Per-Tec sold over 600 retrofit PowerTrap units during 2004/5 which continue to work well on truck, bus and van fleets across the UK. Initial sales of PowerTrap were subsidised by the EST but in March 2005 the subsidy was withdrawn (on EU state subsidy grounds).


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## Minerva (May 22, 2006)

Done

Bill


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## safariboy (May 1, 2005)

Tio answer Peedee's point my 07 Fiat is shown on the LEZ site as compliant from 2010. My understanding is that Fiat X250 are Euro IV compliant and that there are no plans to extend the requirement beyond Euro IV.

Unless someone knows different?


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

I have seen euro 5 mentioned see Don Madge's thread


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## Hovis (Mar 28, 2007)

*LEZ - Anger*

In response to "geraldandannie " we would like to see the exemption in place for Motorcaravans, as although we do no tintend driving through London, who would with the Congestion charge already in place, our Grandchildren live within the LEZ ( Abbey Wood) and we use the Caravan Club site there,when visitiing them from our home in Grantham.To do this at the moment would cost us £200 - £10 in and £100 out for a three day stay. Picking them up and dropping them off from a trip would also cost. Another point, what about our friends who live within the LEZ and own Motorcaravans which are exempt ? I also take objection to the fact that all retired persons are "loaded££££". We have worked hard for what we have and now want to enjoy it. Yes inprove air quality, but this is but a drop in the ocean with regard to aother abusers.It would appear that "geraldandannie " being exempt, is viewing the subject from only one side.
That's me having put my 2 pennywoth in!!
Hovis :evil:


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## Hovis (Mar 28, 2007)

And another thing ! 
Are we all mising a point?
The LEZ was instigated by the fromer Mayor of London Ken Livingstone,so therefore should the Petition not be directed to the new Mayor Boris and not the PM.
Hovis :?


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Hovis said:


> And another thing !
> Are we all mising a point?
> The LEZ was instigated by the fromer Mayor of London Ken Livingstone,so therefore should the Petition not be directed to the new Mayor Boris and not the PM.
> Hovis :?


I doubt that Boris would listen either, how many old Etonians own a motor caravan I wonder? Plus the transport is now being run by Deputy Tim Parker who is a famous asset stripper/millionaire and would probably like to sell off London's roads.

BTW it is likely that the first promise Boris will renage on is the return of the Routemaster bus.


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## Hovis (Mar 28, 2007)

OOps!!
The LEZ was instigated by the fromer Mayor of London Ken Livingstone,so therefore should the Petition not be directed to the new Mayor Boris and not the PM. 
Should read " Directed to the new Mayor Boris and not the P.M. 
Sorry  
Hovis


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