# Problems again ???????????????



## 88966

Hi,

Is there any explanation as to why the site was unavailable yesterday (Sunday) morning ?

Earlier in the morning it was working - but slowly (there were about 90 people on line). Towards noon it was unavailable for a time. A little later (about 12.15) I got back on and there were only about 20 people on line.

It seems to me that whenever the site is busy ( 80 or 90 online) it gets flakey and page reload times increase (30 secs or more is not uncommon).

This is a very popular site and I would like to see it stay that way and I hope I contribute a bit - however I think there is an increasing obligation for it to give good service. If one pays subscriptions or makes regular donations it is moving out of the one man's hobby class and into something more business-like.


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## Pusser

Perhaps they is a bit too much stuff on the home page not that I know much about it.


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## 96097

Hi Bill,

I have seen the problem you are describing, but it appears to happen during the evening as well - irrespective of how many are on line.

A subscription is always a good way to fund modifications to a site, but no matter how small the fee, some people wouldn't 'pay to join' and registered numbers would fall......

Whilst some members might think this a good thing (discouraging 'lurkers' and people who do not post etc) I personally think that encouraging donations is the way to go - perhaps the £150 monthly target is not adequate to fund the changes that keep being suggested in some of the forums and chatroom?

Sharon


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## 88966

Please, please Sharon,

Don't divert this to the subs. versus donation argument - we have done that one to death.

I merely mentioned that if either are taken regularly then IMO there becomes an obligation to provide a reasonable service.


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## 96097

Sorry Bill. 

I obviously missed your point, and the 'subs. versus donation argument'.


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## 88927

Bill
It's the candle in your PC mate. It needs the wick turning up....
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Keith


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## nukeadmin

hi gang
didnt know the site was grinding to a halt every night as its been fine here ?

there was a problem on the server on Sunday am betwen 10-12ish but that was cured and site should have been ok apart from that ?

I am on a nice fast broadband connection here now so my page generation times are less than 0.5s but what are others experiencing ?


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## 88966

Hi Dave,

I am on a nice fast broadband connection too and I do get very fast times - at times !!

For example this one says 3.02 secs. I have experienced very quick, down to 0.?? secs and at times in excess of 30 secs.

As I said earlier my observation is that when the site is particularly busy is when it seems most temperamental - this is not scientific proof !!

I have also read on MMM's site of the difficulties on here.

Good Luck.


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## 96097

The problems are not every night, just some nights.

Sharon


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## 88966

When I went to visit the Virgin mobile site (www.virginmobile.co.uk) this afternoon they were obviously in trouble and had a screen splash saying so - is it possible to do something similar - it would save a lot of frustration.


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## nukeadmin

the problem is Bill is that to do so would actually mean putting some monitoring software in place to check the site response time all the time which would actually incur a little more impact on the site, the virgin spash page is a redirect when they are completely offline or carrying out maintenance whereby they are diverting the requests for their site to an alternative server/web server.


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## olley

Hi Nuke i have an amstrad 1512 circa 1985 if that's any use :lol: :lol: 

olley


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## nukeadmin

lol prob not

ok im experimenting with the front page and i believe it may be the last 30 forum posts block that may be causing the issues.

I am temporarily going to leave it deactivated with a message on front page to explain its off.

Let me know in this thread what your response times are for :-
a. The front page
b. any other pages i.e. forums etc


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## 88927

I've got a wind up torch so you all can see your way in the dark.......

Have all these problems started since the jokes were removed, seemed to work real good before that incident????

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Keith


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## tonyt

Well for me it's definitely a lot slicker tonight - pages reload quicker. 
I'm on dial-up.
As I've mentioned before, I believe the home page is trying to carry too much data so the more you slim it down the better.

However, this is a really great site and I for one thoroughly enjoy watching the chit chat and would like to thank the back room boys (and girls) for a splendid performance.


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## 88966

I agree it is generally working quite quickly but it is very much more difficult to use. Some of the forum pages are taking longer and having to search for what you want takes an age.

One has to have a fabulous memory to remember where things are - I did a search for 'Insurance' and it came up with 'no answers'.

How about replacing the 30 block and removing the random photo's and all the stuff under the 30 block ?


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## nukeadmin

i have removed a few functions on the site temp to test the speed without them,

so far i have disabled the attachments adding in the forums, username colours for staff, front last 30 posts block and a few other meangingless blocks off the front page,

Stu and I are also installing a php accelerator application which should work wonders


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## 88810

We must have the last 30 posts on the homepage. Otherwise the site is unusable for me.
I am sorry if I am using the forums in the wrong way, but the only way I used to follow the threads was by the above.
In the current format, it is pointless.


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## Drummer

And Drummer can't find the chat room! Oh calamity!


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## MOTORHOMER

Oh dear Was away yesterday & today & no access to postes since last visit. All I get now is that old message back gain saying no posts meet criteria/

So lost loads of posts yet again. I dont have time to trawl through the forums


Motorhomer.


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## MOTORHOMER

!7.3 secs to submit that above post before page appeared.


Motorhomer


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## gaspode

Logged on tonight - where have the forum posts gone??????

If the site stays like this it'll run out of punters within a week, the best feature of this site is the useability of the home page. Like everyone else I like to view all the recent discussions and throw my two-penneth in when appropriate, if I have to start searching around I'll loose track - and interest. The home page does seem to load marginally quicker, but what's the use of a fast load if there ain't no content? I have a slow (by current standards) broadband connection and never had problems with speed on this site - except when there are server problems and it's only to be expected that a non-profit making site will suffer from access problems occasionally when traffic is heavy. Too many people expect commercial performance and functionality from a non-commercial site, the reason this site is so successful is that it is non-commercial and presents all that users want in a simple interface - don't go ruining it for the sake of a few seconds loading time!


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## 88781

Why not remove the shout box, ...left hand tool bar, the text size accesibility (if you can't read this font you shouldn't be driving a bloody motorhome anyway!)
right hand tool bar...auctions, top posters box, workboard, and any other useless bits, like the calendar, and out of date (June) notes on 'Road charging' and vat on motorhomes stored in france for 6 mths.

Clean it up, whittle it down and put the 30 recent posts back where they belong.


M&D


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## spykal

Hi all

While Nuke is trying out the changes/tests try using this link to get to the most recent posts in all forums:

>>>>>>>>Link to posts in the last 24 Hours<<<<<<<

When you get there add it to your favorites or right click on the page and click on Create Shortcut to add a Shortcut onto your desktop which will take you directly there with one click.

Mike


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## GypsyRose

Brilliant .... thank you!!! Ana xx


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## Road_Runner_644

Cheers Mike

Was feeling a little lost .. and then i read your post.

Phew - nearly lost me late night fix   

Dave


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## hymmi

Thanks Mike,

What would we do without your links 8O .............Brilliant.............


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## SidT

Mike. Just clicked on your link and it took 18.1 secs to load, and that at 2 minutes after midnite when its usually quiet, something not quite right.
Cheers sid


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## nukeadmin

sorry for the ill feeling gang, but hmmm what am i supposed to do, i have an inbox full of complaints about the site speed, and yes this is completely non-commercial site and hence cant afford to get great big meaty server to run it on on its own. Which leaves me trying to do things on the hop as it were trying to diagnose things.

I did leave a message on front page to warn people it was being disabled temporarily as i try and diagnose things ! and i posted in this thread, cant see what else i could do tbh.

The only thing we have found that is being hammered on the server is RAM utilisation as this site runs on php and MySQL and by its nature creates a lot of queries against the database which in turn eat up resources. The server isnt low spec ram really at 2GB but i have just instructed the host company to throw in another 2gb of ram although this is costing me personaly £299 + VAT dont know the lead time on getting this in yte, but will let you all know as and when.

The forum posts block will be back either tonight or tmrw morning so dont panic !!


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## Paulway

I havn't found the front page loading any quicker as it now is, switching pages between forum post though takes an age, after selecting this thread from the 'Next 5' block at the top of Forums took 2mins!! I thought it was going to come up with the dreaded unable to find server white page but it changed to a blank grey page then took 15secs to load this thread.
I am using a high speed broadband connection and get almost instantaneous response from other sites I visit, so I feel it is a problem with this site.
I fully understand your position Nuke and I appreciate what you are doing just giving you information because the site as slow as it has been, for me anyway, has never been as dog slow as it is being at the moment and I don't think it has anything to do with the front page either.


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## peedee

I'm on BB and didn't think there was anything wrong in the first place. Are you all sure it is not the fault of external sources, the net in general or your ISP?
No doubt Nuke's tests will tell us!

peedee


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## nukeadmin

just found a few corrupt entries in the database and repaired those, has that sped the site up at all ?


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## Paulway

Hi peedee, I am not having any speed problems at other sites I visit, just tried two different ones opening another browser page and they are working virtually instantly, so I don't think it is anything to do with either my setup or my ISP.
Coming back to MHF I have started using Spykals link and that way seems to be working quicker. Just for info.


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## Pusser

Nice one Spykal - I find that most useful. Don't get to peed off Nukey old chap. You are doing a grand job and I for one appreciate it all the work you have to do. "you can please some of the ....etc" seems appropriate. 

p.s. I think Nukey if you work on the website every night say between 0200 and 0500, then 99% of the members will not be put out. This also leaves you the rest of the day simply to enjoy yourself.


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## MOTORHOMER

MandyandDave said:


> ...........left hand tool bar, the text size accesibility (if you can't read this font you shouldn't be driving a bloody motorhome anyway!)
> 
> M&D


Sorry about this moan but I take offence to this remark. This font is far too small for me in the evenings especially BUT that is no reason why I shouldnt be driving. I have regular hospital eye checks - the latest yesterday & there is absolutely no reason whatsover why I shouldnt be driving.

I blow my print up via this computer which is far simpler anyway. Other half changes it back to normal when he is on here.

And I object to the B word.

Motorhomer


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## MOTORHOMER

How about removing the random photos. .
Now wait for the lash back.

Motorhomer


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## nukeadmin

i have made another change that i thinkwould speed the site up and thats to make the forums semi standalone i.e. the left hand nav menu wont show.

now wait for the feedback to that :?


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## nukeadmin

ok another change is i have boosted the recent topics section on the main forums page here:-
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/forums.html

its now showing the last 10 posts in ALL forum sections


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## spykal

nukeadmin said:


> ok another change is i have boosted the recent topics section on the main forums page here:-
> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/forums.html
> 
> its now showing the last 10 posts in ALL forum sections


Hi Nuke

If it is the popularity of the site..ie the number of hits or users accessing the various pages then I suggest that you make it possible to go directly to the last post in any thread if selected from the recent topics list. Ie. the same as if you go from a Forum...Goto page 1, 2, 3, ....

At the moment when a thread is chosen from the "recent list" one is taken to the first post in the thread which then, for all the regulars, entails another page download to get to the last post, most of us are just wanting to see the most recent comment in any thread. If we are all doing this then the extra burden on the site resources will be significant and a change will save you (and the server) a lot of unecessary traffic.

It seems that most of the regular users like to be able to start their visit at a page showing the most recent posts and then they have to navigate down each thread causing endless extra page downloads for your server.

I have looked to see if it is a user setting but cannot find it...sure it was there in the old site? In any case if you cannot code a choice of the landing page why not set it so that we will be served the last post in a thread instead of the first....for the regulars that will be a lot more efficient ...and the new arrivals can navigate back up the thread to see how it started.

Mike

P.S. I quite like the standalone change.


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## MOTORHOMER

Or even go to to the first UNREAD post in a particular thread.


Motorhomer


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## spykal

Hi M

If it could be coded that would be even better.

Mike


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## olley

Hi nuke that Amstrad is still available 1MB memory plus 20MB h/disc :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Olley


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## nukeadmin

lol i have been making changes and by replacing the old navigation menu, user information menu with new versions and by removing the block from the front page for forum posts i have managed to tweak a few other things and get the number of MySQL Queries for the front page down from 330+ to 160ish this is a considerable difference when reflected upon each and every member who hits the site !!

I am now doing some other backend stuff to tweak it, i have a lead time of 2 weeks for the new extra RAM up to 4GB in the server.

Stuart and I are updating the kernel tonight as this is what is causing these random crashes every now and then we believe. This will commence at around 18:30 but shouldnt incur too much downtime as most of the prep work can be done up and running and then a simple reboot on completion.

As for the forum posts, im not sure its in the best interests of the site to bring it back into play as it really hammers the site when its in place on the front page.

Instead i may create a seperate page for it, whereby people can choose to show the most X recent posts and be presented in the same format. Would that appease people ?


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## Paulway

That sounds good to me anyway. I believe it is better to get on the site and then decide where you want to be.
That was why I suggested earlier about haveing a basic front screen that you could select say 'Whole Community' or 'Motorhome Related Forums Only'
Well done, I like the new forum format by the way hope that remains.


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## spykal

Hi Nuke

The forums are, for me anyway, the heart of this site and as far as I can see you have relegated them to an "also ran" in the alphabetical list on the left of the index page...

There is, I agree, loads of content on here but the Forum is the stuff that holds it all together. The Forums and/or the recent posts, or a bold link to them, need to be up front where new arrivals can get at it easily.


Can I be the only one who thinks that?

I may be jumping the gun with this judgement......I can see that it is a "work in progress"...... so sorry if that is so.

Mike


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## 88966

Hi Again Nuke,

I am sure the reason you are getting so much hassle (and suggestions) at the moment is because people care about this site.

Mike, and others, have made a very good point - the success of this site was very largely due to the front page. What is there now will not hold people and attract even fewer.

IMO, apart from the Intro., logo and possible a navigation menu (better than the current though), practically everything else could be relegated to other pages in preference to the 30 block. This is what catches peoples eyes and gives a chance for us to pop in and out easily.

I recognise you are doing trials at the moment and no doubt a lot of hard work - but again in my opinion it is no use trying something that will be no good anyway.


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## nukeadmin

lol this is all just temp stuff atm Mike so dont panic. Im just putting measures in place to keep site ticking over whilst its worked on.

im not going to spend hours tweaking the temp stuff when i need to dedicate this time to actually fixing root causes


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## 88927

Hi Nuke and all.

Can I make a serious comment?
I have belonged to several web based communities and many of them ask for a membership subscription of say £5 per year. Dave it is no use, mate, telling us that you have just had to fork out £299+VAT personally, because IMO no-one will care much. I note that each month you achieve the contribution total and I am assuming that this figure goes toward the running of the site. We have hosting for our company website that costs buttons compared to the £1800 per annum that you ask for and maybe shopping around will bring rewards. Also with regard to asking for membership subs you can then qualify the site as having XXXX number of members as they are all serious enough to pay a trivial amount to belong therefore they are serious "motorhomers" and this could be used to attract fee paying advertisers who will be more interested in advertising with a "serious site" and bring in the revenue that may allow you to have this site professionally maintained and not be a personal burden to you.
I hope you do not take my comments in any way other than intended, and that is of a constructive nature, it is in no way "having a go".
I believe that if you ran a poll to see how many of the 7000+ members would be prepared to pay, you may well get a pleasant surprise, it is my experience Dave that if you don't ask then you won't get.

Good luck

Keith


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## 96097

Hi Nuke,

Don't know if you are tweaking, but chatroom not available, and home page won't load - just keeps flashing - hope nobody suffers with epilepsy who is trying to 'get in'.

Sharon


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## 88934

kands said:


> We have hosting for our company website that costs buttons compared to the £1800 per annum that you ask for
> 
> Keith


Hosting is one thing. It's easy to get cheap hosting. Hosting is just a place for things to live?

However, who designs your web site, who maintains it, ect. I bet that doesn't cost buttons?


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## Road_Runner_644

Hi Nuke

Not sure that the actual site is always the problem. I have a 500k dsl here and a 2 meg dsl at work. both lines are BT, and DENS would be BAT in the first instance. I generally find the site quick enough, and wouldn't class it as a slow site. 

I too get the following problems every now and then. No rhyme or reason for it, can happen anytime of day or evening.

Site has gone - dns error - but usually back in 10 mins

slow page loads - up to 25- 30 secs, but usually quick enough 1.5 to 5 secs

I'm going to run a traceroute every time i get problems, and i'll highlight the results when site problems affect me. i'll run random ones as well so i can see the norm. you never know.

Dave


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## 88781

Just logged on and the site main page (formerly Home Page) is flashing, on/off like a disco light! surely this is a server issue and nothing else!

30 most recent removed has no effect IMO :roll: There has been too many changes on this site recently that may or may not have been an improvement, personally I feel it's time to move onwards, I no longer feel that I could contribute in any way to this site in it's current format, I will take this opportunity to thank the staff and members for almost 3 years of entertaining, informative and sometimes hilarious topics covering all aspects of Motorhomes.

See you all out there! Mandy and Dave


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## nukeadmin

well what a hornets nest this has become !!

firstly Keith we have been down this road so many times in the past i'm afraid. People as a rule want something for nothing, and if they cant get it they go elsewhere online. There is a perception that a website can be done by anyone and run by anyone for buttons.

Subscriptions have been bought up time and time again, and tbh hardly anyone interested, in fact the backlash was huge against actually having any type of subscription even a voluntary one !!!

M&D sorry to hear you feel like that but thanks for work behind the scenes, let me know when you have gone and i will remove your account as part of this clean up i am doing. I am also considering removing any inactive accounts from accounts that havent been used in over 6 months as well to clean out the databases.


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## Pusser

FAO - don't just bugger off Mandy and Dave. You have contributed loads of stuff to this website and all that is happening at the moment is a few trials just to see if there is a better way of doing things. We have loads of brains on this forum but we are a bit short of beautiful people so I'm afraid you cannot go at least until another good looking couple is found.

I also think, changing the subject, that to my knowledge Nukes has made every effort to accommodate members wishes and if all members wishes were the same then life would be easy. But all members are not the same and so some will like somethings and others not. But I think for a free site, we must learn to accommodate some things that are not to our taste and spend more time enjoying those bits which are. It is really unfair using Nukes as a punch bag when things go tits up which will happen from time to time with any website. And finally, it is not through lack of effort that these problems arise.

So please everyone be a little patient and take the pressure of Nukes so he can get things ship shape again. We are all a big family, at least that is how I see it, and arguements are bound to happen from time to time but the world has enough crap happening in it for this website to be a life or death situation.


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## nukeadmin

thx for the support Pusser, and yes a LOT of work is going on behind the scenes to resolve the issues lately, for instance Stuart has just traced the issue with the page refresh on the main page to folder on the server being the wrong filestructure type (for the geeks out there we changed it to ext3 yesterday but for some reason it wants to be ext2 otherwise the page refresh occurs !!)

as for the front page block thing, well the problem here has always been that that particular block is very very database intensive, especially when you consider it is the main page of the site so every single person who goes to the site sees it. That block does around 70 database calls all on its own and when you extrapolate that out to the 1000s visitors (anon and members) that hit the site in 24 hours then you can see how it can bring the server to its knees !!

now there are two options with that block, I am going to see if it can be optmized somehow or feature limited (Maybe remove the sticky section at the top) if that doesnt bring the resource usage down enough then maybe moving that to another page on its own instead, with a drop down on the front page to let you choose how many last posts you want to see. That way if you are away for a day or so you could simply select show me the last 100 posts etc

anyway just an update so im back to the grindstone.


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## 88927

Wile you are right, hosting is cheap and it is a place where websites "live". If M&D are correct then some of the problems are associated with that place. Website build costs??? Minimal and only a one off anyway.
Maintenance costs??? Built into the hosting price. I guess the definition of cost depends upon the persons ability (or willingness) to pay and as it seems that people on here are unwilling to pay a minimal sum to belong to something that is both informative and helpful then I suppose the costs could be construed as Massive.
Dave I would like to say that you get out of life what you put in. I would strongly advocate a subscription for the site and all those drifters that won't pay are then at liberty to wander off. Are you on an ego boost, and get turned on by the high number of free loaders or would you rather see a smaller number of "members" that actually want to see something good and usable for their money? On the forums I have joined I always reckon I get my monies worth over and over again in techy type help. One example was a car I had was flashing an air bag fault, went onto the website for enthusiasts and was told how to correct it. This took under 3 minutes and no technical skill required. Oh yes the main dealer wanted £80 to put the car onto their computer just to find the fault, then a charge to rectify. Cost of joining the website..........£5.00 PA

Please don't be run by the tight and miserable, it looks to me that we have already lost one important member to this crap. I think this all started or at least appears to have got much worse, when you removed J&T from the homepage to appease the PC and moaning brigade, now the site is on a sliding path into mediocrity. The moaners will have the forum they want and all the rest of us will be someplace else. You then will be running around appeasing the moaners and find that you have precious little time left to earn a living and will they help you then?????
You already know the answer. Some people on here have spent tens of thousands of pounds on their hobby surely £5.00 PA would not hurt them, that is not even enough to buy a pint and a packet of ****.......or whatever the PC brigade spend their cash on these days. The reason they wont pay is meanness pure and simple.
Dave please get a grip, this was a great site but recently it has been taken over by moaners IMO and I think it is high time you weeded them out. How many of your 7000+ members actually contribute regularly? 50%, 30%???
Charge them and get it sorted. Ken Livingstone charges people to go into London and they still go by the thousand everyday, and dont give me the "they have to go there" as an excuse. Everyone complained at first and said they wouldn't go into London and for the first couple of weeks that was the case, now however it is back to normal and the charge just went up by 60%.......
Most people who hang out on websites do so for the community spirit and paying for it won't change a damn thing, all you will lose is the people who can "whinge for free" someplace else. Good riddance if you ask me.
Lets get real, this is the 21st century. Charge and deliver.

I am passionate about this as you have gathered and I know that I will get retaliatory snipes but if no-one stands up for the common sense route then we have all lost a valuable asset and please don't take this as personal Dave, I definitely agree with Pusser and support your efforts 100%, they just have to be focussed and effective.

Keith


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## spykal

nukeadmin said:


> lol this is all just temp stuff atm Mike so dont panic. Im just putting measures in place to keep site ticking over whilst its worked on.
> im not going to spend hours tweaking the temp stuff when i need to dedicate this time to actually fixing root causes


Hi Nuke

I was not suggesting a tweak of the temp setup in my post on Page 3. I was suggesting a way to lower the overall load on your server when you finalise the setup......

maybe you missed my point..please read through it again...I do write too much sometimes and instead of making it clear I end up in a fog.... :lol: see I've done it again.

_Added after you put the 30 posts list back 11.30 am ish.....If I go to the listing for this thread I land on the first page of post then I have to navigate to the last page...using up your server resources_

Mike


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## 88934

Maintenance costs are not built into hosting. 

I am not talking about a bloody 13amp fuse going bang, or a hard drive giving up the ghost. I am talking about at software level. A busy website takes a lot of time maintaining. 

As for site subscriptions, I am a subscriber, but I don't want this site to be a subscription only site? WHY.. because I have seen this happen before, and as soon as you make a good site like this one subscription only, folk will drift off elsewhere. And you end up with a few hard core users discussing where everyone has gone? 

What puzzles me though Kands, is that if web hosting is so cheap, and MH sites like this are easy to run and maintain.. then why are there so few of them. Why has someone like yourself not taken their own ideas and created a MH site of the own? 

Cheers


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## spykal

Hi wily

I had considered this option myself shortly before finding MHF (a site that does it all).......there is no shortage of available software and my skills are up to it, but I do not need the extra hassle in my life right now...the income generated when everything is sorted may be nice but I do not need that either, so here I am ......sat on the side hoping Nuke can get it sorted to his satisfaction....let alone mine :lol: 


Mike


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## nukeadmin

> Added after you put the 30 posts list back 11.30 am ish.....If I go to the listing for this thread I land on the first page of post then I have to navigate to the last page...using up your server resources


Already does this, if you click on the actual thread title it takes you to the thread start, if you click on the little icon to the left it takes you to the last post in the thread


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## 88934

spykal said:


> but I do not need the extra hassle in my life right now...the income generated when everything is sorted may be nice
> Mike


What hassle?

If it is so easy, simple and cheap to do.. then where is the hassle ;-)


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## 88934

nukeadmin said:


> it takes you to the last post in the thread


ICONS??

No Icons here old bean????

But hey, don't panic.. in my GPRS imageless world.. I just get to see those wonderful words of text which replace it instead.. "click to go to last post in thread" ;-)


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## spykal

Hi Nuke

well i'm bug***ed! so it does
but in the words of Michael caine "Not a lot of People know that"  :lol: 
So it may be best to have it the other way around :roll: 
(never bl**dy well satisfied eh :lol: :lol: )

Hi wily



wilecoyote said:


> spykal said:
> 
> 
> 
> but I do not need the extra hassle in my life right now...the income generated when everything is sorted may be nice
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> What hassle?
> If it is so easy, simple and cheap to do.. then where is the hassle ;-)
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing with you but

Easy ---No 
Simple --- er No
Cheap ---in money terms --Yes

Hassle is the time and effort ----effort I would be Ok with ----Time --- **** I may be dead this time next year....too many places to go to many things to see...having made my millions already I would want a bigger return on my time :wink:

Mike


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## 2point

As a relatively new member I have these observations -

- I only use the forums, you ask questions, you get answers. Simple.
- The site apparently has other information on it, it's hidden away and disorganised. I'm not going to trawl for it, see Forums for answers.
- Front page too cluttered
- Niggles with forum

I'm very grateful for the provision of this site/forum, these are observations, not things that cause me greif or problems.


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## 88927

Hi wile
Whatever mate..... 
My comments regarding website maintenance were made from my personal experience of our company website. I know very little about websites so we had one built (cost buttons), we have it hosted on a server with built in maintenance and advice, software, hardware, server issues etc (costs buttons). Hit rate was optimised by professional company (cost buttons). A lot of responses to our website lead to work for my company (income substantial).
I would rather not cloud this post with arguments going back and forth as you are obviously better informed than I, however I still think that you get what you pay for and expecting Dave to slog away at providing everyones whims for free is a bit much.
BTW I didn't bother setting up a MH website because like Mike, I found this one and don't believe in re-inventing the wheel, but it isn't beyond the realms of possibility.....
I would also like to know what you get for your subs that I don't get? What motivates you to pay? From what I can see on the subs part of the site there is no benefit in subscribing except that you have a windscreen sticker that I dont.
In my opinion this is hardly likely to attract subscriptions, and I am thinking that I must have been awfully lucky with the sites I belong to (15,000 + members) that we all didn't run off when asked to pay for the site.
Guess we can discuss this further at the Midlands Rally.

Keith


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## badger

Hey Nuke...I'm active....I'm active, dont delete me!!!

I like the site (I'm not moaning) but maybe a navigation bar at left to save keep going back to "home" to see if there are any PM's or how many in chat.....Or am I being silly?


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## Road_Runner_644

Hi

It's very fast now.

I really hope M&D don't go .. So Dave

I loved your jokes and technical replies, and your hospitality together with your Mandy and Ian & Jaquie at York was great.

Bloody nuisance really.

Dam fine pair of Dogs ( You know what i mean)

See you around i hope, You saved me a fortune on a Cv replacement.

Dougal the Westie is still in love.

Come back soon,.

Dave


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## 88966

Hi Dave and All,

As I started this thread a few days ago - it probably seems years to you Dave/Nuke, I think it might be appropriate for me to put an underline on it.

Thanks for all the very hard and dedicated work Dave and Stuart.

The site appears to me back to better than it was before - well done.


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## 88934

Hello folks.. I am now using a wireless connection, so my imageless world is no more for a bit  

Anyway, despite falling into a bottle of red, I feel the need to respond  

Kands. I am not arguing or wanting to fall out with anyone, you especially. 

Just airing my opinions  

In response to Kands last post (I think).. 

> from my personal experience of our company website. 

A company website, often never changes much. An interactive board with thousands of users does. This can be a huge difference?

Some years ago, I ran a (non web) board for a while. The user database was peanuts to what Nuke has on here. 

However, the running and maintaining of it was a nightmare. As soon as you introduce users, your in big styley trouble 8O 

Your site changes with every new member and every new post. Indeed the whole idea of having "moderators" on board (scuse the pun) is so that the Admin can relieve himself of less important matters.. like moderating peoples post etc.. and spend more time actually keeping the thing running. 

>I would rather not cloud this post with arguments going back and forth 

You raise some good points. I don't think these would be classed as argumentative. 

>I would also like to know what you get for your subs that I don't get? 

For me.. Satisfaction  

> What motivates you to pay? 

Because I know how much of a nightmare it can be. I have lost count how many times what appears to many as a "simple problem" has taken me days or weeks to solve. Many nights burning the midnight oil ect. No easy answer. Nuke is welcome to it.. all of it, the whole damm lot 

> there is no benefit in subscribing 

Yes there is. Just like you also mention.. 

> I, however I still think that you get what you pay for 

I couldn't agree more. That is why *I* pay. When I find something good in life, I like to hold on to it if possible. By supporting Nuke I hope that it will help MHF live long into the future? 

Look at this another way... a little question (to all reading this).. 

Q) If you met Nuke in a pub.. would you buy him a drink and say thanks for MHF? 

I won't suggest an answer, what *I* would do is irrelevant. 

But? For those who perhaps initally thought.. "yes" or "maybe so".. Will you ever get the chance? If not, then why not buy an online drink? 

For *ME* personally, subscribing is just that.. it is like buying an online drink for the man, no big deal, simple  

>In my opinion this is hardly likely to attract subscriptions 

You could offer Gold Watches and it still wouldn't. In this day and age, where people want everything for nothing, it is hard to enforce. 

(How many have a wife who would walk an extra half mile to save tuppence on a tin of beans for example ??????) 

Try and charge, and many folk just shrug their shoulders and walk away. I have seen this happen before on a few occasions. This is a great shame, but it is just the way it is :-(

Fortunatley, My old man installed a bit of "old skool" in me, and I have learn't that showing appreication where it is due is often a worthy thing to do. Sometimes this is a financial thing.. so beit. Sure one could be a freeloader, there are no freebies for paying, there are no beneifts as such.

But how much better does it make *ME* personally feel.. lots. Stuff what everyone else does or thinks.. if that makes me a fool, then so beit, I like being a fool ;-)

>Guess we can discuss this further at the Midlands Rally. 

I am quite looking forward to meeting anyone who attends. I always come well armed though... with Red Wine. So be warned ;-)


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## 88927

Thanks for the reply wile....
I'm sure my wife will come well armed to the rally so watch out.
I couldn't agree more with most of your comments, and dinosaur that I am, I really do understand the differences in websites and their platforms etc.
My major point of contention is that we have a fantastic site here with nearly 8000 signed up people. Most of those people (IMO and I do stand to be corrected) do not contribute much and a small percentage contribute hugely. It appears to me that the people who contribute the most get castigated as soon as there is a perceived problem, they take all sorts of flack. Very few offer to help out and in fact many are part of the problem, not willing to be part of the solution. It is easier to moan and groan than actually get off their backsides and do something, even if that something is to offer help and encouragement.
If you then ask those same people to contribute financially, they all turn away and mutter into their beer and continue moaning. That in my view is like being first out of the taxi and last to the bar, they are mean.
The discussion that I was trying to have was that people should be more generous and hand over a fixed sum to the administration of this site so that there is sufficient funding to allow problems to be resolved ahead of time, not being forced to wait for the site to crash and then attending to the faults that you knew all along were going to pull the site down, if you get my meaning?
If there were subscriptions then it allows forward financial planning which will make this site much more stable (long term) in every sense of the word, and more enjoyable for all members.
If certain people would rather trawl around for a "free" site, then so be it, your analogy of wife walking miles to save tuppence is a good one and applicable here. What would be left is a core of people that accepted ownership (to some degree) of the site and its well being, maybe the moaners would have departed, and I suspect that Nuke could then concentrate his efforts to better effect for us all. With a good team all pulling in roughly the same direction and a superb product to begin with, how could it not be successful?
I hope this reply will envoke further comment, because I would love to have my jaundiced view proven wrong, and be told that the vast majority of people here actually supported the site and would be prepared to fund it rather than see it descend into obscurity.

Thanks all

Keith


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## 88966

Hi kands,

I suggested way back in the mists of time (or on the previous site) that there could be a subscription and non-subscription membership. Dave was very concerned that people should not feel excluded because they did not wish to subscribe.

He introduced a subscription facility and continued with the voluntary donation facility, as well as free access. There was considerable discussion about the merits and demerits of each.

I have no idea of how many subscribe or make voluntary donations.

If Dave is happy to run the site in the way it is funded, it is his prerogative.

I like the site and am happy to subscribe and hope that any critical comments I make are viewed as constructive feed-back, what others do must be for their own conscience.


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## nukeadmin

well hi all, i have been reading this thread with interest.

MHF is growing daily as always, but there are many issues that are known about, some annoying, some serious, some niggles, but all of them lessen the site as a whole.

The major problem i have is i am constrained nowadays by plain old simple facts and figures. i.e. i have the down to earth grass roots bills to pay now i am once again settled within the UK and without a full time job as such i have to concentrate on other business interests to help fund these bills.

MHF does bring in donations, ranging from £80-150 on average per month, and we have 56 subscribers in total since that concept was put in place.
Now thanks to those people i have been able to dedicate enough time to the site and its associated hardware to keep it ticking over, but not actually improving it much in its present incarnation. I have ideas a plenty on improvements but simply cant afford to spend the time researching, programming, testing and implementing them.

I am considering options again on the way ahead with MHF as in its present financial methodology it will grow but at a slow pace and with fixes put in place to keep it alive as and when required, however if i could find a happy medium or another way of doing things that could provide sufficiently reliable funding then i could pull back from other business interests to concentrate more on MHF and add all my ideas and those of members of course to the site and really improve on an already fairly good platform.

All comments are welcome


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## 88927

Hi Dave
I think you are correct and I also think that everyone will understand that in order to keep the site at the top of the charts we have to feed the webmaster. If you fall over then there is no MHF.
I am more than willing to help out in any way that I can, as already discussed, and although my time is limited I am sure that if enough people put in a little the net result is a big effort, which will help you out.
I have some thoughts regarding funding and will PM you about these.

It looks as though we have one subsciber to add (thanks Bill D) already so people are willing to help financially and we can soon get the "membership" up to 60.....
Only another 7900+ to go :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Keith


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## 88966

Hi Keith,

I agree with your comments, except for one, I was one of the first to subscribe - so I am sorry you cannot add me !!

However, I would hope that a lot more people will give serious consideration to taking out a "voluntary" subscription.


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## 88927

Hi Bill
You could pay twice mate :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 
OK 7901left to go then....

Thanks
Keith


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## badger

My belief is that you will always get the "few" who will donate/subscribe to this excellent site, and reiterating the needs for contributions to keep the site going will undoubtedly bring in a few more subscribers/donations.

Its clear that the vast majority of so called members "myself included" are thinking "I will only pay, when I can no longer access the best parts of the site for free.

Blocking adverts to subscibers is no good, its not what your advertisers are paying for they want to be sen by as many as possible. Weve already had the "rankings/Badges/premier or standard membership" argument.

A flat annual fee giving access to everything is what's required and to encourage new members, free asscess to most of the site for either a limited period or maximum number of postings, after which they should decide to pay or not.

I prefer not to pay in my own addmittance, but I am not prepared to let the site go from my life through not paying.


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## 88927

Well said badger and thanks for the contribution.
Let's just hope that if it becomes neccessary that more people will have the same philosophy as you and a few others. I don't want to lose this site either or it will mean having to watch the TV for entertainment.... God help us all....

Keith


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## 88934

OK, I am curious, if folk needed to subscribe, what would they consider value for money? 

I.E:

Would you consider £5.00 a year too little or too much?

Would you consider £15.00 a year too little or too much?

Would you consider £25.00 a year too little or too much?


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## olley

how about Nuke putting little halo above your name so that when you post people can see you are a subscriber.

Olley


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## badger

I for one would need quite a lot for my money for £25pa but hey, at the end of the day how much is needed and from how many members and dont expect 7000+ to be signing up cos they wont. I think youll be lucky to keep 1000
(but I'll be one of them)


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## 88934

olley said:


> how about Nuke putting little halo above your name so that when you post people can see you are a subscriber.
> 
> Olley


I shall take that one personally.

I was merely trying to find out what others consider value for money, as I know my own feelings on this?

Sod MHF then eh, is that your attitude?. Everyone use it whilst you can freeload.. and go elsewhere when its dead on its feet.

Sad !


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## nukeadmin

if MHF did go the way of paid subscriptions in some form or other it would be the lowest amount mentioned that would probably be deemed a fair amount i.e. £5, so no worries on being asked to plump up £25 !!


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## MOTORHOMER

We have been here before. We do not agree with subscriptionsm& do not belong to any site where subscriptions are compulsory. If every site we visited were subscription only then we would just not be able to afford it. We would just go elswhere.


Motorhomer 1 & 2


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## 88934

MOTORHOMER said:


> We have been here before. We do not agree with subscriptionsm& do not belong to any site where subscriptions are compulsory. If every site we visited were subscription only then we would just not be able to afford it. We would just go elswhere.
> 
> Motorhomer 1 & 2


You can afford a timberland, but you can't afford a fiver subs?


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## MOTORHOMER

wilecoyote said:


> MOTORHOMER said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have been here before. We do not agree with subscriptionsm& do not belong to any site where subscriptions are compulsory. If every site we visited were subscription only then we would just not be able to afford it. We would just go elswhere.
> 
> Motorhomer 1 & 2
> 
> 
> 
> You can afford a timberland, but you can't afford a fiver subs?
Click to expand...

That is not what I said.

I said if all the sites we visited were to want subscriptions then we would not be able to aford them. Whether we can afford a Timberland or not which I might add was aquired while I was working does not come into it. We will both be pensioners soon and no we would not be able to afford the cost out of our pension if every single site we visited on a regular basis wanted subscriptions. I am sure there are many folk with motorcaravans. We are not all mega rich like some. We worked & saved hard for what we have. Doesnt mean we rae rolling in it.

Nough said so dont get personal

Motorhomer


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## Scotjimland

MOTORHOMER said:


> We have been here before. We do not agree with subscriptionsm& do not belong to any site where subscriptions are compulsory.


£5 is not a lot on it's own but I agree with Motorhomer. 
My wife and I are members of quite a number of forums, if they all had a fiver subscription it would add up to a tidy sum each year. 
If it were introduced I am not saying I wouldn't pay nor that it wouldn't be good value for money but I think the number of members would fall dramatically, perhaps a low as 500 .. this could only be detrimental to the site.. it could sound the death knell ....

Jim


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## 88934

I am not getting personal. 

We are not talking about every site you visit, we are talking about just one? 

And in my honest opinion, anyone who cannot afford a spare fiver in a YEAR for such useful information..should not be on this site in the first place.. cus they sure as hell can't afford the motorhome which goes with it ;-) 

Just my opinion, not a personal dig !


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## olley

wilecoyote said:


> olley said:
> 
> 
> 
> how about Nuke putting little halo above your name so that when you post people can see you are a subscriber.
> 
> Olley
> 
> 
> 
> I shall take that one personally.
> 
> I was merely trying to find out what others consider value for money, as I know my own feelings on this?
> 
> Sod MHF then eh, is that your attitude?. Everyone use it whilst you can freeload.. and go elsewhere when its dead on its feet.
> 
> Sad !
Click to expand...

Don't take it personally its was meant as a joke, if he did do it i would have a halo above mine as i subscribe, after reading a post by your goodself I thought i had better.

In the short time i have been a member i feel i have easily got my moneys worth

Olley


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## MOTORHOMER

wilecoyote said:


> I am not getting personal.
> 
> We are not talking about every site you visit, we are talking about just one?
> 
> And in my honest opinion, anyone who cannot afford a spare fiver in a YEAR for such useful information..should not be on this site in the first place.. cus they sure as hell can't afford the motorhome which goes with it ;-)
> 
> Just my opinion, not a personal dig !


Please keep your opinions to yourself as they are personal. What you will do is up to you. It is not for you to say what you have just said above. Using your logic people shouldnt have cars , homes etc etc.


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## nukeadmin

well this has always been an emotive subject

BUT

subscriptions keep raising their head for one major reason

MHF is growing constantly, and this growth alongside its stability and improvements and enhancements requires lots and lots of hard work in the background. Please consider that MHF isnt like a personal website or a standard static website. Its interactive and its this interaction that makes it complicated and hence needs time to tweak it along its path.

I'm afraid its just getting to the point where i cannot dedicate this time and effort due to other commitments elsewhere, completely out of my hands. I have looked at the site and although we may have 8,000 members on paper, we do not have that many CONTRIBUTORS, i mean contributors in that they give something to the site not in the financial sense but in the adding to the community and to the knowledge base if you will.
The number of members who actually contribute in this way is dramatically lower, i would estimate <10% i.e . <800

as mentioned in this thread it feels good to consider ourselves part of one of the largest MH communities like this but where is this getting us ?
We have rallies and the attendance of these rallies is normally sub 20 vans !
We have an extremely hard working rally volunteer team, but even they must get frustrated at these figures. Even when they mention slush funds to try and build up a nice comeraderie and fund things like vino and nibbles they get shot down in flames. If everyone were paid members then these rallies could be subsidised for members and could become much better attended as people do tend to become more involved and as kands mentioned "take ownership" as they want their moneys worth out of it all 

I can see MHF evolving but it needs some good support from its members to do so. I know this thread will run and run and i am interested in opinions so keep em coming.


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## 88934

motorhomer>Please keep your opinions to yourself as they are personal 

No they are not? 

Why can people not afford to pay a fiver for something they use and enjoy. 

You don't expect to get a pint of beer for nowt, so why expect to get a site like this for nowt !? 

motorhomer> What you will do is up to you. 

What happens to this site is nothing to do with me actually, it's nukes decision. 

motorhomer>It is not for you to say what you have just said above. 

I live in a free country, where free speech is (supposedly) permitted. So long as it is not liable, then I can (within reason) say what the hell I like. 

You might not like my opinion, or you may agree with it. But YOU have no authority in telling me what I can or can't say? 

Motorhomer> Using your logic people shouldn't have cars 

EH! What are you going on about man !? 

Are you drunk !


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## 88934

olley said:


> Don't take it personally its was meant as a joke


Ah righto, sorry I misread that one 

I just thought you were hitting out at the few folk who pay at the moment?


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## MOTORHOMER

nukeadmin said:


> well this has always been an emotive subject
> 
> BUT
> 
> subscriptions keep raising their head for one major reason
> 
> MHF is growing constantly, and this growth alongside its stability and improvements and enhancements requires lots and lots of hard work in the background. Please consider that MHF isnt like a personal website or a standard static website. Its interactive and its this interaction that makes it complicated and hence needs time to tweak it along its path.
> 
> I'm afraid its just getting to the point where i cannot dedicate this time and effort due to other commitments elsewhere, completely out of my hands. I have looked at the site and although we may have 8,000 members on paper, we do not have that many CONTRIBUTORS, i mean contributors in that they give something to the site not in the financial sense but in the adding to the community and to the knowledge base if you will.
> The number of members who actually contribute in this way is dramatically lower, i would estimate <10% i.e . <800
> 
> as mentioned in this thread it feels good to consider ourselves part of one of the largest MH communities like this but where is this getting us ?
> We have rallies and the attendance of these rallies is normally sub 20 vans !
> We have an extremely hard working rally volunteer team, but even they must get frustrated at these figures. Even when they mention slush funds to try and build up a nice comeraderie and fund things like vino and nibbles they get shot down in flames. If everyone were paid members then these rallies could be subsidised for members and could become much better attended as people do tend to become more involved and as kands mentioned "take ownership" as they want their moneys worth out of it all
> 
> I can see MHF evolving but it needs some good support from its members to do so. I know this thread will run and run and i am interested in opinions so keep em coming.


Hello

re rallies.

Part of the reason why the rally attendance count is small is due to short arrangement notice. Folk are very often otherwise engaged. ie abroad on holiday travels etc & other commitments. Also the rally/gettogether needs to be within an attendees reasonable distance to travel. Weare thinking of attending the next Midlands rally but feel the distance for two nights is prohibitive for us. The New Year rally however is a possibility because we also have family in that area that we can also visit if we want to
Unfortunately there is nowhere near where we live suitable to hold a get together.

Motorhomer


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## 88934

MOTORHOMER said:


> Part of the reason why the rally attendance count is small is due to short arrangement notice


How much notice does one require to be reasonable then???

Posted: 2005-06-07, 20:19:13 (by Mandyanddave) Post subject: Northern Motorcaravan show York, September 16-18 2005

"I need a show of hands for MHF members prepared to meet up, in Our Own Club Section at the above event"

<snip>

The York Show was still 3 months away at that point?


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## olley

Wile have you fell in the red again? not everybody wants to rally, i like the site my wife is completely disinterested in it, we want different things, thats life get over it.

Some pay some don't, i have had good advice from this site, i would get less if you had to subscribe. After reading your previous post i about buying nuke a drink i thought yes i would, so i subscribed, but thats me if others don't so what, i am happy.

I prefer white myself just starting on the second bottle.

Olley


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## MOTORHOMER

wilecoyote said:


> MOTORHOMER said:
> 
> 
> 
> Part of the reason why the rally attendance count is small is due to short arrangement notice
> 
> 
> 
> How much notice does one require to be reasonable then???
> 
> Posted: 2005-06-07, 20:19:13 (by Mandyanddave) Post subject: Northern Motorcaravan show York, September 16-18 2005
> 
> "I need a show of hands for MHF members prepared to meet up, in Our Own Club Section at the above event"
> 
> <snip>
> 
> The York Show was still 3 months away at that point?
Click to expand...

Some of the meets have been as short as 2 or 3 weeks notice & then cancelled. Even 3 months for some folks who travel a lot without naming names is too short. Those who work plan their holidays 12 months or even more in advance. I would say a happy medium for a good turn out would be about 6 months. Once diary spaces are filled they are filled. Not every motorhomer is retired free to come & go & not every motorhomer has every weekend off. Perhaps you are retired & with pockets lined in gold but not everyone is, some still have to work.

Motorhomer


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## hymmi

Hi,

Sorry to go of at a tangent on your post BillD,but i must agree with Wile on this and just add that my post for the Midland Rally went up on 20 Sept.and is not untill 18 Nov., have so far 21 units attending out of 8.000 members with space for 50 and this in the exact middle of the country,5mins off M1............what more can anyone try to do.

We do work weekends but thought this would be more convenient for everyone,i know this is our choice but have given up a weekends work too to do this and we are both self employed

Thanks by the way to those who can make it and for the kind words i have received................


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## spykal

wilecoyote said:


> What happens to this site is nothing to do with me actually, it's nukes decision.


Hi Wily

Re the quote from you above:

What happens to this site actually does have something to do with you and with anyone who posts regularily on here.

Since the site started it has, at various times suffered from growing pains ..just like it seems to be at the moment. But IMHO we are , in the forum, losing what did seem to be a true community spirit of common good. We had arguments about all sorts of rubbish but we did always seem to treat each other with some respect. IMHO that does now seem to missing and the emotive subject of subs has reared its ugly head again. I say "ugly head" because as far as I can see there is no "best" solution and as you can see from this thread the "Them and Us" feeling between payers and non payers does nothing to help the overall community of MHF.

You also said

"I live in a free country, where free speech is (supposedly) permitted. So long as it is not liable, then I can (within reason) say what the hell I like. "

IMHO....Well yes you can but normally between friends stating something like that is not usually found to be necessary and personally I always try ....especially when writing on here, to think how my writen words will come over to the reader...It is a bit different when talking one on one to sitting in front of a computer screen and reading it at a distance.

I do hope that all the folks who are determined to just keep on stirring things up will ..just for now anyway, give it a rest. MHF needs a bit of breathing space.

Nuke will, I have no doubt, be thinking and worrying about the revenues from this site just like the revenues from his other sites. He needs to earn a crust....as he says, he is back here now and needs to generate a living from his skills....whether it can be done by making MHF a subscription site remains to be seen.

Nuke could if he wished sell off this foundling web site to one of the big clubs ....In fact that may well be where he is going. The CC or the C&CC could do with a forum like this, ready set up and with a good turnover of readers....change the name and bingo...big bucks.

Mike

P.S. Hi hymmi having just seen your post ...Sorry but although for us this should have been the easiest of rallies to attend ...it does fall on the same weekend as my wifes work "end of season party" and as such we will have to attend that ....still amongst campers though because as a job she helps run a local holiday park!. :wink: Best of Luck with the Rally ...and the weather :lol:


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## hymmi

Hi Mike,

I am sorry you can't make it, it would have been nice to meet you both again,maybe catch up at the C.C.stand at the N.E.C.next year,bring a chair ................. :lol: :wink: .


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## 88934

Right, lets try and pick a few comments off in order here 

Olley> Wile have you fell in the red again? not everybody wants to rally

I completely agree. However, the comment made was that figures were low because of the short notice?

Olley> After reading your previous post i about buying nuke a drink i thought yes i would, so i subscribed, but thats me if others don't so what, i am happy.

Way to go 

Motorhomer>.Perhaps you are retired & with pockets lined in gold but not everyone is, some still have to work.

Far from it. We are in our 30's and have two kids, 8 and 13. Besides all the normal work commitments ect, we also have other serious issues within the family, which dictate what we can do in our life very heavily.

Spykal> Nuke will, I have no doubt, be thinking and worrying about the revenues from this site just like the revenues from his other sites. He needs to earn a crust....as he says, he is back here now and needs to generate a living from his skills....whether it can be done by making MHF a subscription site remains to be seen.

I don't think the issue is about making huge sums from MHF with subs. But what you have to consider, is that if nuke spends just 20 hours a week on MHF, it is 20 hours a week he could have spent elsewhere earning a living. In his profession, that could be quite a tidy sum too 

Getting a bit of an income from MHF, might actually numb the blow a bit.. if you follow?

I would just hate to see it end, simply because he cannot afford to keep it going. And like you said.. pass it off to another establishment. The crazy thing is, that same establishment would then pay someone (maybe Nuke) to maintain it?


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## 88726

hi guys
i've been a bit busy selling and buying a new m/h so im a bit behind here :lol: 

wow ! monster drifting thread :lol: . it's taken me till 01:30 to get here :lol: 

just thinking thru the last 7 pages isnt it great how on this site we can all have a great debate . it's a bit like an online agm .

absolutely top marks to nuke who must have the patience of a saint . dave give youreself a great big halo next to youre name mate . huge thanks from us :wink: 

OK RISKY BIT ---- ive never liked the idea of pay forums,ive seen them die BUT i think where we are now was a good compromise from the previous situation. i know weve done the subs topic before but as it has been resurected may i suggest (having just visited it ) that the subscription area could have a bit where you decide how much you pay for subs yourself . if that were possible i will subscribe . 

i do apreciate that this will mean more work for nuke (sorry) and upsetting maybe everyone that has already subscribed buy hey its a great debate .

i apologise in advance to anyone this upsets so no shouting at me ive already said sorry ! if this post causes any grief could a moderator please just rub it out . :lol:


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## 96097

Kenny + Stella

'could have a bit where you decide how much you pay for subs yourself '

Good point, but isn't that exactly what happens at the moment? I thought there were a few subscribers, half a dozen or so donations a month, and thousands that choose to pay nothing? 

I am not being critical, I fall into the latter category - but I am a fairly new member and view this site as great entertainment and if subs were required and they were affordable (and gave ME value for my money), I certainly would pay to belong rather than lose my right to be here and voice an opinion or add my experiences to a post.

I also notice that donations required to meet the oct target is £87.49 with just 9 days to go. Therefore, in my opinion, the donation system is not achieving much.

Sharon


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## 88726

hi rockie

maybe my fault for being un-clear, if you go to the subscriptions bit ( way at the bottom right of the home page ) it costs £15 with no option to change that , if you subscribe it costs £15 to belong .this is the bit i am talking about .
there is the other donations bit for just donations of any amount to help out but it dosn't buy you any membership type priveledges . i think :?: but i could be wrong .

i can see how this could be a bit confusing if you dont know the history of the site . im sure they both have differing purposes . maybe if they were both sited adjacent to each other then folks would see both and then be faced with a decision . ? sorry dave :lol: thats me moving stuff around now . 
i'll just get me coat !


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## 88927

Hi all 
I would just like to bring to everyones attention a Fact about MHF site.
In the right hand column, near the top of the Home Page is a box indicating numbers of visitors to the site. One of the boxes is "Most ever on line", have a look at it to see the problem. There have been a maximum of 124 visits to the site at the same time (this from a membership of nearly 8000), the figure for guests is more than double the number of members at 84 compared to the maximum on line at one time members of 40. That equates to 0.5% of the membership. Now if all the problems of the site were caused by 0.5% of the members being on line at the same time or if you add in all the people on line (124) which equates to approximately 1.5% of the 8000 membership..... Imagine the catastrophe that would be caused by a 25% on line turn out.
I think the math is easy and what it means is that Nuke is subjected to an immense amount of work for a small percentage of members. Statistics can obviously be read in a number of ways and this is just my interpretation of the figures, which of course are open to margins of error, however Nukes own comment that approximately 10% of the membership are "active" contributors says it all to me.
I do believe that this is a debate worthy of all our input, we certainly dive in on other topics with gusto, so why not have your say on a topic that is very serious with regard the site itself.
I look forward to the many replies that I hope are still to come.
Keep up the good work Nuke, we all appreciate your efforts.

Keith


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## nukeadmin

> Nuke could if he wished sell off this foundling web site to one of the big clubs ....In fact that may well be where he is going. The CC or the C&CC could do with a forum like this, ready set up and with a good turnover of readers....change the name and bingo...big bucks.


That is definately a direction i would never want MHF to go in, i love its independance, it allows us to slate dealers, accessories etc (That are of low quality/provide bad service) this wouldnt happen if it were owned by one of the organisations you mention.



> I don't think the issue is about making huge sums from MHF with subs. But what you have to consider, is that if nuke spends just 20 hours a week on MHF, it is 20 hours a week he could have spent elsewhere earning a living. In his profession, that could be quite a tidy sum too


On the nail there Wiley, i dont want MHF to make me a millionaire (As if that would ever happen) but i do want to dedicate time to the site and as you say in my profession time is money and usually considerable amounts of it, i usually rise in the morning, take brad for a walk and then i can be coding etc from 8am through until 10pm at night on some days with breaks throughout of course, so lets say i code for around 10 hours a day average, well i can tell you on a bad week i may spend 30-40 hours looking after mhf and coaxing more performance, fixing issues, adding enhancements. On a good week it may be as little as 10 hours. Remembering i probably get around 30-40 emails a day from people who cant get through the website registration process, have forgotten passwords, general queries etc. Simply too many emails for me to work on most weeks, and this is very frustrating as well as we are losing members due to it. If i was working in a full time job and doing those sort of hours then there is no way MHF subscriptions would ever match my income  and please remember the unsung hero of my collegue Stuart, he IS in full time employment and gets paid a very good wage but he also dedicates time to this site in some shape or other at least a few times a week.

lol if we were to charge out what we would get paid as a contractor/consultant to MHF then i would need probably around 30 new members a day paying £30 each


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## 88934

RockieRV said:


> I am not being critical, I fall into the latter category - but I am a fairly new member and view this site as great entertainment and if subs were required and they were affordable (and gave ME value for my money), I certainly would pay to belong rather than lose my right to be here and voice an opinion or add my experiences to a post.


Brilliant. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Nuke has already suggested subs may be just a fiver a YEAR?

I personally think that is excellent value for money?


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## 88966

Hi All,

Can I try a slightly different slant on this discussion, please.

I subscribe to several magazines on a variety of subjects. These cost, on average, around £3 each - say £36 per year each. In each magazine I am lucky if 20% is of interest to me. To get direct feedback from any of them is virtually impossible.

This site gives me vast amounts of information, that I can to a large extent view selectively (if people head their topic realistically). I can ignore topics that I have no knowledge of or interest in or that at that time I don't have time to spare for.

What is more important I can help other people from my experience and knowledge. I can also discuss topics (like this one) where there are many viewpoints to be taken into account.

I chose to subscribe because I want to see this site continue and improve and I am happy to contribute. When I compare the value for money I get with my magazine subs. I know which comes out far and away ahead.

I am not going to suggest that it should be a subscription only site far from it - it is up to your own consciences and mind processes.


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## 88790

Bill,

I adopt much the same attitude as yourself. Its the same for me with the CC, I think its magazine is worth the annual fee, so I get all the other benefits for nothing.

With subscriptions at least Nuke has some idea of a sum he can count on, unfortunately it is from a small number at present. Everything has been said about the quality and value of the site, and I can only say it gives me a lot of pleasure.

I might add I also donate to other sites I use that are 'self supporting' in order to show appreciation and support but if they had subs I may equally subscribe to them.

If people use this site properly the help and information they can obtain is truly amazing, I suspect there are very few regular users who have not changed something they do or obtained assistance in some form ro the other.

John 8)


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## 88927

Hi Bill and John
Words of wisdom indeed.

These are the points I have been trying to put across in the main.
This site is fantastic, we are allowed to air our views as we wish, we can ask for help / advice and assistance which we get in abundance. Sometimes we have to weed out the answer from the fog of war, but that also adds to the community spirit in some ways.
During my time on the site I have asked dozens of questions and had really useful answers. The help we have had has saved us thousands of pounds financially and helped us to gain the knowledge required to make good decisions and buy good motorhomes. Once in our possession there has been help and advice to help us fix the problems that crop up whenever you change a vehicle. To some the question may be boring and mundane but to others it is of interest and answers are generally swiftly forthcoming. When we bought our Hymer there were one or two issues that showed no-one had experienced the fault before, so once I had attacked the problem and resolved it I decided to post my experiences on this site to assist others in the same way I had been assisted previously. I know of several people that were helped by this info and I am very glad that I could help someone.
Where else can you get that feeling of satisfaction and achievement???

If we gave 10% of the money we had saved as a result of the help we have had to this site then Nuke would meet his donation target for quite a while, just to put it into perspective, and I KNOW we are not alone in this situation.

My only slight disagreement Bill is that I do not believe that funding for the site should be a conscience thing, because it's easy not to have a conscience and take it all for granted. We come on here for many hours a week for enjoyment and enlightenment, but there is someone (or more) that come on here for at least the same periods of time trying to make it all a pleasant experience for us all. These people are taken for granted and even abused when it is less than perfect.
Let us please try to remember that this is Nuke's site and he is, IMO, allowed to do with it as he wishes, and if we the members don't agree we are free to exercise our right to go somewhere else or lobby to make changes, I personally believe that if funding is not forthcoming in the near future, then the site could well stop being Nukes baby and become a burden that he finds difficult to justify and then we may not have any decisions to make, they will be made for us, and I certainly do not want to belong to a site affiliated to PC and censorship according to the power of the advertiser NO THANKS.....

Food for thought guys

Keith


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## 88790

I like the way the site goes to full page when a thread is chosen and the go to Main Page option at the top.

Nuke a serious question though, I often wander off and leave my PC still connected to the site, I often have two or more sites loaded at the same time. Does this have any effect on the running of the software and cause the site to slow for others?

John 8)


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## nukeadmin

> Does this have any effect on the running of the software and cause the site to slow for others?


Hi John no not at all, connections to sites like mhf are formed using what are called sessions, these have timeout values so after a short period of inactivity the session is killed automatically


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