# Swift Voyager 685FB - Problems with everything



## PFS600 (Jul 6, 2008)

Don't know if i am unlucky or if Swift motorhomes are just rubbish and not put together properly. I purchased my new Swift in October, we have not been able to use it yet, the habitation door locking did not work when we collected the van so it had to go back, then everytime we ventured out in the van the control panel stopped working, Swift sent us a new one, we duly changed it, however it then stopped working, Swift informed us that they had sent out the wrong panel, it had the wrong software in it, they have now sent us another panel, which i might add we are having to change ourselves as the dealer we purchased the van from is in Somerset, we are in the West Midlands, a lesson to be learnt there me thinks. After we had changed the second control panel the fridge stopped working, we took it back to the dealer who fixed it, new thermistor was installed, not bad for something that had not been used. Got the van back home now the leisure batteries are not charging, a problem with the circuit board behind the fuse panel, the dealer's are trying to get us one before Monday. The van has got 800 miles on the clock, 500 of these are from driving backwards and forwards to the dealer. The other annoying thing is the steering wheel, it was sitting to the right when we were driving in a straight line, we asked for it to be centralised, the dealer said they had fixed it, picked it up and it was still the same, we gave them another chance to fix it, they took it to a Fiat dealer down the road, the wheel now sits to the left when driving in a straight line, i have given up with this one, my wife and myself are beginning to loose the will to live with this Swift van, we are wondering if anyone else is suffering with the similar problems, if so perhaps we should all get together and return the vans back as unfit for purpose, Swift would then have to return all the money that they had received for the vans, maybe just maybe it might make them realise that the £40,000 plus price tag on these vans is not really justified. I will definitely be sending Swift a bill for all my time taken off from work to sort out the problems, so if you are reading this Peter Or Cath from Swift, keep your eye on the letterbox, it may arrive with something from the County Court as well. :x


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## carol (May 9, 2005)

Isn't this a case - again - of it is the Dealer's problem, whom you chose not to name..... they are your point of contact, and not the manufacturers, how many times does it have to be repeated on here.

Peter and Kath step in when all else fails, I think, and get the dealers to sort it out, after all they are the ones who took your money.

Carol

Not what you want to hear I am sure


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## rickwiggans (May 10, 2006)

A sorry tale, and I feel for you. To answer your first question, I would suggest you are unlucky. My experience of Swift is that they are not rubbish. I've had several happy years in a Swift, and have been impressed both by my 'van, and with Swift's responsiveness on this forum. I no longer have a Swift, but only because I have particular layout requirements that do not exist in their range. Buying a'van many miles from home is a risk you take, presumably, to achieve a lower price. Swings and roundabouts, I think. I can understand your frustration, but I think I might count to 10 and think things through calmly before trying to involve courts and the like. This is extremely expensive and time consuming, and from what you have told us, the situation is a long way from you having any sort of a case - after all, efforts are being made to remedy the situation, albeit, to date, unsuccessfully. You should also be aware that in law, you don't actually have any immediate recourse against Swift - your contract is with the supplying dealer, not with Swift. I really hope you find a resolution to this. I'm sure it will be worth it in the end, and you will have many thousands of miles enjoying your 'van.  

Rick


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## time-traveller (Apr 23, 2007)

I can never understand why people grumble about the distance they have to go to the dealer when they chose them in the first place. And on the same count I can't understand why people expect they can charge the dealer for the diesel they use in getting there and back. Warranty conditions are usually limited to the actual work and parts and specifically exclude the costs involved in getting there and back. When you buy anything on the internet, for example, you don't get reimbursed for the post and packing should you have to return it. Neither will M&S, Currys, Comet or anyone reimburse your costs and time in returning faulty items to them - so why expect a motorhome dealer to do it?



PFS600 said:


> Don't know if i am unlucky or if Swift motorhomes are just rubbish and not put together properly. I purchased my new Swift in October, we have not been able to use it yet, the habitation door locking did not work when we collected the van so it had to go back, then everytime we ventured out in the van the control panel stopped working, Swift sent us a new one, we duly changed it, however it then stopped working, Swift informed us that they had sent out the wrong panel, it had the wrong software in it, they have now sent us another panel, which i might add we are having to change ourselves as the dealer we purchased the van from is in Somerset, we are in the West Midlands, a lesson to be learnt there me thinks. After we had changed the second control panel the fridge stopped working, we took it back to the dealer who fixed it, new thermistor was installed, not bad for something that had not been used. Got the van back home now the leisure batteries are not charging, a problem with the circuit board behind the fuse panel, the dealer's are trying to get us one before Monday. The van has got 800 miles on the clock, 500 of these are from driving backwards and forwards to the dealer. The other annoying thing is the steering wheel, it was sitting to the right when we were driving in a straight line, we asked for it to be centralised, the dealer said they had fixed it, picked it up and it was still the same, we gave them another chance to fix it, they took it to a Fiat dealer down the road, the wheel now sits to the left when driving in a straight line, i have given up with this one, my wife and myself are beginning to loose the will to live with this Swift van, we are wondering if anyone else is suffering with the similar problems, if so perhaps we should all get together and return the vans back as unfit for purpose, Swift would then have to return all the money that they had received for the vans, maybe just maybe it might make them realise that the £40,000 plus price tag on these vans is not really justified. I will definitely be sending Swift a bill for all my time taken off from work to sort out the problems, so if you are reading this Peter Or Cath from Swift, keep your eye on the letterbox, it may arrive with something from the County Court as well. :x


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## PFS600 (Jul 6, 2008)

I agree with your replies i did purchase the van a long way from home because i saved a considerable amount of money, my point is that the van should not be like this in the first place, i have involved the dealers, but by the time i have taken the van back to them, let them look at it, they order another part, it's another week or two gone, and just another point, Swift sent me a replacement panel a week ago, albeit the wrong one, our local Swift dealer told us to take the van back to where we bought it from for any warranty issues, i have a 12 month old car that i can take to *ANY* dealer to have warranty issues sorted out, why is it different for a motorhome?

I sympathise with our dealer and any other dealer in the country that they have to sort out so many issues with Swift van,so, i will repeat myself again, THE VANS SHOULD NEVER LEAVE THE FACTORY LIKE THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE, why should we be expected to accept anything less than perfect when parting with a lot of hard earned cash


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## PFS600 (Jul 6, 2008)

Sorry, forgot to mention on my last reply, the dealer does reimburse me for my fuel, however they do not reimburse me for my time.


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## colonel (Oct 11, 2008)

I am another 685FB owner and I have had some problems with mine. For example, the habitation door lock, the control panel, the reversing camera image being the wrong way round (not really a fault), cracked passenger seat cowl and various other small issues.

ALL of these have been dealt with by the dealer who is Lowdhams of Reading.

Of course I shouldn't have problems, but I also live in the real world. I also was going to buy from a dealer in Somerset but I worried that if there were warranty problems, how would I get it back to the dealer each time and for that reason I chose another dealer.

As others have said, your gripe is with the Dealer but I can understand how difficult that is if they are so far away.

Like others, I suggest you take a deep breath, count to ten and then list all the current problems, speak with the dealer and get them to plan a programme to deal with them all on the next visit.

Do persevere, you know it's a great MH and once all these things have gone away, and I'm sure they will, you will have a great time enjoying it.

I wish you good Luck.


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## MaxandPaddy (Mar 18, 2006)

Hi PFS600,

You have my complete sympathy,I totally understand your plight and why you are upset and at times angry! :evil: 

We purchased an Autocruise Motorhome after the take over by Swift and it had several serious faults,some similar to yours but a lot of electrical problems and potently hazardous in terms if a fire risk in one case. 8O 

The dealer is the one who should pick up and run with this,the manager who sold the Motorhome to us did not get involved in the aftersales problems leaving the service department to pick up the pieces which was not really acceptable.

Peter and kath have picked up on some of my dilemmas and in times of sheer desperation I have sent them a PM and they do respond.

Having gone through 12 months of continual problems and 11 return visits to the dealer the advice I will give you is get stuck in to the dealers ribs as the Motorhome is not fit for purpose if you are not able to use it.
Do not mess around start by contacting your local trading standards and get advice on how to issue a letter of your intentions .
On reflection I wish I had taken legal action against our dealer as one of the sales people actually turned round to me and said I should have rejected the Motorhome!!!
So although Kath and Peter will try to help out,you must put the dealer under pressure and if involves legal action then so be it!
Good luck.
Val


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## rickwiggans (May 10, 2006)

> Swift dealer told us to take the van back to where we bought it from for any warranty issues, i have a 12 month old car that i can take to ANY dealer to have warranty issues sorted out, why is it different for a motorhome


The reason you can take a car to any dealer for warranty work, but not a caravan or motorhome, is that the contractual warranty arrangements car manufacturers have with dealers, are different to those between M/H and caravan manufacturers, and their dealers. Car dealers who sign up to the franchise deal are obliged to do the work. M/H and caravan dealers are not, unless they sold it. The dealer who sold it has obligations defined by consumer protection legislation. The reimbursment rates are generally less than commercial workshop rates which means it costs a dealer from whom you did not purchase your M/H money. So, in defence of dealers - they are not just being bloody minded - there are sound reasons.


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## buttons (Dec 19, 2005)

rickwiggans said:


> > The reason you can take a car to any dealer for warranty work, but not a caravan or motorhome, is that the contractual warranty arrangements car manufacturers have with dealers, are different to those between M/H and caravan manufacturers, and their dealers. Car dealers who sign up to the franchise deal are obliged to do the work. M/H and caravan dealers are not, unless they sold it. The dealer who sold it has obligations defined by consumer protection legislation. The reimbursment rates are generally less than commercial workshop rates which means it costs a dealer from whom you did not purchase your M/H money. So, in defence of dealers - they are not just being bloody minded - there are sound reasons.
> 
> 
> Not always the case. I have a VW California and all warrantee work, habitation or drive unit can be addressed anywhere in europe.


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## rickwiggans (May 10, 2006)

OK, "in most cases". I guess there are always exception which prove the rule


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Hi,

Any chassis/cab warranty rectifications like the offset steering wheel (most annoying) can be done by ANY Fiat authourised service centre in the UK. You do not have to take the MH back to your Dealer who in fact is not normally authourised to do the work anyway.

As regards the Swift conversion, that is the responsiblity of the *supplying dealer* whatever the make is and that is common throughout the industry irrespective of whoever the converter is.

As others have said, you voted with your wallet and chose to deal with some one miles away from you even though the majority of dealers don't want to know due to the financial costs involved.

Warranty work is subsidised by the original sale of the vehicle.

We, however subject to availablilty will undertake warranty rectifications on all Swift products irrespective of where or from whom the MH was purchased from in order to support the franchise and assist Swift owners.

Peter


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## Jean-Luc (Jul 21, 2005)

As rickwiggans says, the reimbursement rates, or time allowed for a job by a manufacturer can be less that that which the dealer requires to complete a job and is subsidised from the original profit from the sale. I have a similar situation with my Rapido purchased from Brownhills in 2005. 
A botched repair to a manufacturing blemish on the gelcoat by Brownhills in 2007 needs to be redone. Rapido are prepared to extend the warranty for this job to be redone by a competent person at Caravans Rapido in Wokingham, however, I am on notice that there may be a shortfall between the actual cost and that which will be allowed by Rapido, which I will have to make up. Understanding the rational and not wishing to visit Brownhills again I have decided to accept this proposition. 
I also required warranty work (a recall) on the dash which Thompson Leisure in Northern Ireland gladly did, after first getting confirmation from Rapido that they would reimburse them and supply them with the parts. 
Not wishing to expose myself at Brownhills again if I needed warrantee work I first got my chosen dealer to get agreement with the Customer Service Dept at Rapido that they would be reimbursed for the work and once that was sorted all went well.


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## Wytonknaus (Jun 18, 2007)

Hi Peter of JCM

We are fully aware of the dealers responsibility with reguards the warranty work but why should a dealer pick up work when Swift have failed in the pre delivery checks. You cannot just build something and deliver it without ensuring it is a saleable product. Surely it should be up to the manufacturer to produce goods that are of a marketable quality and not just churn out goods un-fit for sale. If the work required to recover the vans to a useable condition should be taken on by the dealer does this mean that the dealers staff are Swift trained?

All people ask is that Swift take a reasonable amount of care with the building of their product, the worst thing is when the dealer who supplied the van is then shown to be inept, there is no where else for us the customer to turn. We were introduced to our dealer by the staff employed by Swift at the NEC and thought we were on to a winner, I will not now take our van into the same county as the dealer who supplied it just in case the person doing the work was trained by them!!!!

It does annoy though when people who do not even own a Swift come on here and tell us how well Swift are responding to customers problems when this is not the case. I know we should not be knocking our UK builders and give them all the support we can which we Swift owners are trying to do, this you cannot say about someone who owns a Rapido!!!

I will be contacting you to do our habitation checks in Feb/March as you do appear to be the only company who take any pride in your work.

Tim


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> As regards the Swift conversion, that is the responsiblity of the *supplying dealer* whatever the make is and that is common throughout the industry irrespective of whoever the converter is.
> Warranty work is subsidised by the original sale of the vehicle.
> Peter


What an insane situation this seems after reading for over a year now of the volume of faults coming out of the factories. You never know if you've made a decent profit until the warranty runs out.

Fixing faults in a factory is pain, fixing after delivery is financial suicide. One of the best examples of this was the British motorcycle industry, they produced junk that leaked and broke down, the Japs arrived with reliable kit and that was end of story. Cars were similar, it was when the Japs moved in that we produced efficiently and with quality.

You can have some wet dreams over Christmas on the lines of opening up for business next year and looking at your stock of Japanese MHs that arrive finished and that never break down. Then you'll waken up and kick the cat.


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Hi Tim,

Thanks for that, look forward to having you as a new customer.

One must bear in mind that Swift like all other converters do not make control panels, fridges, cookers, Truma heaters and other apliances or habitation doors and furniture etc, they assemble them and make them into a completed MH to their design.

These things will go wrong unfortunately, I am sure they are tested and work before they leave the actual manufacturer and again tested once installed by Swift.

On a proper PDI they are then tested again by the supplying dealer before handover.

As regards Swift factory training, no as all our fitters have many years of experience in the industry and a MH is a MH at the end of the day.

As regards training in the various appliances installed, yes, they all go on refresher courses throughout the year to keep abreast of the new technologies being introduced and warranty repairs/rectifications are normally charged directly to those manufacturers being apointed service agents.

Control panels, no. They have to be returned to the actual manufacturer for repair/exchange.

MH's are literally mobile houses with dual voltage supply electrics, fridges, cookers, plumbing, sewage disposal, heating and everything else that goes in a house except that it also has to contend with being made of lightweight materials and not bricks and mortar!

Inevitably there will be teething problems but I can honestly say with Swift they give the best back up in the industry.

We have been aproached by a number of other converters to stock their producta, looked at the back up and said NO.

Peter


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## 94055 (May 1, 2005)

Wytonknaus said:


> It does annoy though when people who do not even own a Swift come on here and tell us how well Swift are responding to customers problems *when this is not the case.* I know we should not be knocking our UK builders and give them all the support we can which we Swift owners are trying to do, this you cannot say about someone who owns a Rapido!!!Tim


Why do you state what is highlighted in your quote above?

Who have you contacted at Swift?

I and many others have had excellent service from Swift.

Have you bought many things new that are as complex as a Motorhome? If you had then you would be aware that teething problems arise.

Steve


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Hello PFS600.
I seem to remember various dissatisfied motorhome owners on both sides of the 'pond' who complained about a variety of defects, one being the off set steering wheel.
Chatting with one of these owners we came to the conclusion rightly or wrongly that this was a way of denoting a 'Friday afternoon' vehicle.

Anyway back to unsatisfatory dealers. In the states the largest two Fleetwood dealers are in Arizona and Florida. Most new owners that end up with defects that can't be fixed by the selling dealers often end up back at the American Coach (Fleetwood) dealer in Indiana up to 2000 miles away to be taken care of. In fact the manufacturer now has such a happy following of loyal owners it's called 'Camp Fleetwood'.
We spent many comfortable weeks there having any fault rectified at cost even on our second hand three year old RV. 

This certainly seems to create a very loyal clientele who would never dream of buying from any other manufacturer.

Ray.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Regarding steering wheel centering, some vehicles are more sensitive to road camber than others. If you are in a mindset to look for faults, this is one area where you can easily kid yourself you have one.

Dave


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## LynneKen (Jan 19, 2008)

We have a Voyager also purchased from a dealer in Somerset, we have had a few niggles and they have been superb and dealt with each and every one with good grace and prompt attention, as for buying away from your locality we nearly bought from our local dealer ( I wont go into the reasons why we chose against) and boy are we glad that we didn't he has now closed down and we have no local dealer and I have no idea where the nearest Swift dealer is? and we don't live in the sticks either, when we have needed anything doing to our van we have just combined the visit to our dealer with a couple of days on a local campsite ( Warren Farm) and made the most of it, but I have to add that our Voyager has had very few problems unlike some of you we have been very lucky.


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## LynneKen (Jan 19, 2008)

We have a Voyager also purchased from a dealer in Somerset, we have had a few niggles and they have been superb and dealt with each and every one with good grace and prompt attention, as for buying away from your locality we nearly bought from our local dealer ( I wont go into the reasons why we chose against) and boy are we glad that we didn't he has now closed down and we have no local dealer and I have no idea where the nearest Swift dealer is? and we don't live in the sticks either, when we have needed anything doing to our van we have just combined the visit to our dealer with a couple of days on a local campsite ( Warren Farm) and made the most of it, but I have to add that our Voyager has had very few problems unlike some of you we have been very lucky.


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

> It does annoy though when people who do not even own a Swift come on here and tell us how well Swift are responding to customers problems when this is not the case.


Tim. Interesting point-though I'm not so much "annoyed" as intrigued.

I do spend time looking at the O&A Forum and from what I've seen there are many more Posters there dissatisfied with Swift than seem satisfied. Swift don't post on O&A I believe.

Makes you think dunnit? :wink:


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## Kelcat (Apr 20, 2008)

As already clearly stated, and as I suspect you already know, your recourse here is with your dealer. I can understand why people on MHF like to 'use' the access they have to Swift - but as you're basically asking them to step in and help you - by apparently sidestepping the chain of liability - wouldn't it seem more prudent to be conciliatory rather then antagonistic? 
Again this seems like a case of ; 
I want the cheap price from Dealer A - but I want the quick & local service of Dealer B - I just don't want to pay for it. 
As you state you 'saved' a considerable amount by choosing the dealer you bought from - you cannot now complain that you have to travel to visit the dealer - why should the local guy get the problems and not the profit? 
As to whether or not the problems should be there, I suspect that Walkers sometimes put the wrong flavour in the bag, Merc ship the wrong colour - mistakes happen - it's regrettable but it's a fact. This is why the dealer does a PDI and you spend hours on the handover.


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

Motorhomes are tested before despatch and Dealers are expected to do a thorough PDI before despatch which should highlight any problems?It is strange how we get problems with product from some Dealers and none from dealers like Johns Cross or is it? All parts are supplied by suppliers who supply the whole European industry.I dont know why we get this intermittent Control Panel problem but for us to change mid season is dangerous but the way the Euro is going we certainly are looking to the UK for next season.Without doubt buying from a dealer some distance away is not recomended unless you have ensured how they intend to service you and buying at a significant discount leaves the dealer with little to play with when it comes to aftercare.Peter.


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

SwiftGroup said:


> Motorhomes are tested before despatch and Dealers are expected to do a thorough PDI before despatch which should highlight any problems?It is strange how we get problems with product from some Dealers and none from dealers like Johns Cross or is it? All parts are supplied by suppliers who supply the whole European industry.I dont know why we get this intermittent Control Panel problem but for us to change mid season is dangerous but the way the Euro is going we certainly are looking to the UK for next season.Without doubt buying from a dealer some distance away is not recomended unless you have ensured how they intend to service you and buying at a significant discount leaves the dealer with little to play with when it comes to aftercare.Peter.


Without wanting to be controversial, I find a couple of your comments a bit strange, Peter.

"It is strange how we get problems with product from some Dealers and none from dealers like Johns Cross or is it?"

Surely the quality of preparation by the dealer is something that you monitor. It cannot be in Swift, the dealer, or the customers interest for vehicles to be poorly prepared.

On the bsis of your comment, Peter, Swift are 'aware' of those dealers doing a good job in preparing vehicles, and those that aren't. Wouldn't it be better to find out why some do a poor job, and sort out the problems?

Or is it cheaper to resolve the problems once the van is delivered to the customer? It shouldn't be difficult to analyse the relative costs and decide on the appropriate course of action.

Secondly,

"...buying at a significant discount leaves the dealer with little to play with when it comes to aftercare."

The customer must surely be entitled to the same aftercare srvice, irrespective of the price paid.

The dealer has to decide on the risk of a van giving warrantable problems down the line, and determine how much discount he can afford.

If he gets this right, he maximises profit, gets it wrong, he loses. That's business.

In such circumstances, giving an excessive discount should surely motivate them to doing the PDI properly and rectifying any minor faults at that time.

I hope you will all forgive me for intruding into a 'swift' thread even though I don't own one!

Merry Christmas

David


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

> I hope you will all forgive me for intruding into a 'swift' thread even though I don't own one!b


I don't think there's any Forum Rules preventing it David- there's at least seven of us on the thread who are of similar belief! :wink:


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

b16duv said:


> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> > Motorhomes are tested before despatch and Dealers are expected to do a thorough PDI before despatch which should highlight any problems?It is strange how we get problems with product from some Dealers and none from dealers like Johns Cross or is it? All parts are supplied by suppliers who supply the whole European industry.I dont know why we get this intermittent Control Panel problem but for us to change mid season is dangerous but the way the Euro is going we certainly are looking to the UK for next season.Without doubt buying from a dealer some distance away is not recomended unless you have ensured how they intend to service you and buying at a significant discount leaves the dealer with little to play with when it comes to aftercare.Peter.
> ...


Good evening David, It is a fact there are good dealers and bad dealers and you are correct in saying we have to sort the wheat from the chaff but this is difficult to do as you can have good dealers with poor facilities and bad dealers with good facilities to me it is all about whether people care or not if they do you will get good service.Without doubt it is cheaper for all problems to be solved before handover but if it was that easy we would have done it by now! Your second point is best answered by a Dealer maybe Peter will respond? I suspect as the market toughens there will be winners and losers and the best ones will survive? Hope this answers your points? Merry Christmas regards Peter.


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

Telbell said:


> > I hope you will all forgive me for intruding into a 'swift' thread even though I don't own one!b
> 
> 
> I don't think there's any Forum Rules preventing it David- there's at least seven of us on the thread who are of similar belief! :wink:


Still awaiting Fleurette's participation?????????


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

SwiftGroup said:


> Telbell said:
> 
> 
> > > I hope you will all forgive me for intruding into a 'swift' thread even though I don't own one!b
> ...


And Niesmann & Bischoff's!

Peter, I wasn't suggesting sorting out the wheat & chaff was easy! If it were, all dealers would be brilliant!

D

Are you happy with your Dealer ?
Yes 54.77% (224)
No 45.23% (185)

Total Votes: 409


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

There arnt many manufactures who have given as much sipport as Swift Group. 

We currenlty have a Hymer which we are in the process of changing to a Swift group vehicle. One of the reasons for this is due to there support and help if things go wrong. 

Thankfully our Hymer has not given us any trouble but if it had I bet we would have had a few problems in getting things fixed, I thing this applys to many makes of Motorhome, but there does seem to be a growing army of happy Swift customers on here.


Richard...


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

RichardnGill said:


> We currenlty have a Hymer which we are in the process of changing to a Swift group vehicle. One of the reasons for this is due to there support and help if things go wrong.
> 
> Thankfully our Hymer has not given us any trouble
> Richard...


Do want to take a sanity check on this ?

Hymer no problems.

But you expect Swift will give you good support for the problems you expect.

That's like saying "I hope I fall off a cliff tomorrow because the UK Air ambulance service is the best in the world."


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

b16duv said:


> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> > Telbell said:
> ...


Without doubt this forum has an influence on the Industry as I quote it all the time!!! Even with Tellbell keeping me on the straight and narrow! Peter.


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

Do want to take a sanity check on this ?

Hymer no problems.

But you expect Swift will give you good support for the problems you expect.

That's like saying "I hope I fall off a cliff tomorrow because the UK Air ambulance service is the best in the world."


> Brian I never said I was expecting problems, just said I am sure IF I get any they will be sorted out.
> 
> I have spoken to a few Swift owners and they have got problem free vans, just because a company has a good reputation for fixing problems does not mean they have more than an average anumber of problems.
> 
> Richard..


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## rowley (May 14, 2005)

Most of your complaints cannot be blamed on Swift who are at the mercy of their suppliers. My son has a company that is working with electronics and he is finding that the lead free solder that is now in use is causing a lot of faults. He has also found many pcbs that have capacitors breaking down prematurely. If this is what might be happening on your motorhome then you cannot blame Swift.


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## ovalball (Sep 10, 2008)

I too have a Swift Voyager,and I am really happy with it.There have been a couple of problems but none that I could say were Swifts fault,just component problems.Any issues which i have raised(through this forum)have been dealt with promptly by the Swift personnel who seem to on this forum 24 hours a day!!My previous MH was an Auto Trail which had far more problems than my new Swift.So I would say to anyone who thinking about purchasing a new Voyager to go for it :lol: Merry christmas and a happy new year to all forum members,2009 has got to be better than 2008 surely?


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## 94055 (May 1, 2005)

hilldweller said:


> Do want to take a sanity check on this ?
> Hymer no problems.
> But you expect Swift will give you good support for the problems you expect.


Well we did exactly the same

Price for price copmarison about £20k for similar model. That was before the crash of the £ on the Euro as well.

To us a NO BRAINER, SWIFT win it for us.

One of the many happy Swift owners.

Steve and Jan


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## 111728 (Apr 28, 2008)

PFS 600- As much as I believe you are correct to be dissappointed with your experience. It appears the real issue is the journey back and forth to the supplying dealer. I acknowledge you think the issues should not be present in the first instance (as do I). But the facts are the facts, it is reasonably common for teething problems ( I do not agree with the fact there is, however, it appears an industry standard) to occur with a new motorhome. 

Reading the many comments, it could be resolved easily, supplying dealer receives X for warranty work and non supplying dealer receives 2xX for warranty repairs. That would encourage Swift to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

Whilst there is no urgency (ie financial cost or additional cost) no manufacturer will solve the problem of poor dealers. I am sure a local dealer will do the work at 2xX and Swift will question why another dealer sells product cheaper then the normal dealer discount to leave customers with poor PDI or additional inconvienence rectifying the warranty work, which maybe should have been found initially on PDI. Punish the quilty by finanically penalising them.

Will it happen in a depressed market?....two chances, a fat one and a slim one!


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Secondly,

"...buying at a significant discount leaves the dealer with little to play with when it comes to aftercare."

_The customer must surely be entitled to the same aftercare srvice, irrespective of the price paid. _

*Absolutey correct, but if you buy something wholesale, don't expect retail service in my book, I don't. I buy fleet cars for reps for another business I own and buy them from my local Ford Main Dealer, do a deal take them away and only come back when I want some more, he is happy, so am I.

You cannot have your cake and eat it.*

_The dealer has to decide on the risk of a van giving warrantable problems down the line, and determine how much discount he can afford._

*True but then one should not do not do silly deals, invariably the buyer wanting huge discounts is the one that gives the most agro and needs to be avoided*

_In such circumstances, giving an excessive discount should surely motivate them to doing the PDI properly and rectifying any minor faults at that time. _

*They should do that anyway irrespective of the margin and who is to say that this particular dealer didn't in the first place.*

If we supply a MH to someone who lives a fair distance away, we ask them to stay in the area for two or three days for a 'settling in' period so that if anything does misfunction or they are unsure about something they can always easily come back to us. 
Depending on the area they live in, we try and make sure there is a back up service agent available.

Peter


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

RichardnGill said:


> Brian I never said I was expecting problems, just said I am sure IF I get any they will be sorted out.


Fair enough.


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

I've been away from the keyboard for a few days so I'm late in replying to this thread and I confess to not reading it 100%

To the OP who started this thread - you are not alone. Look for some of my previous posts on exactly the same issues.

To the person who stated that Swift cannot be blaimed if they are using faulty components - sorry but this is nonsense in my opinion. Swift specify components or have them designed specifically. If they are not suitable for the job or reliable the responsibility lies with Swift - they cannot pass the buck; they chose to use them.

PDIs will not pick up all faults - they would not have picked up any of mine which occured at a later date, quite a good many due to poor design.

PDIs should not be used by manufacturers as an excuse to ship product out the door with faults. Why should a dealer be expected to remove excess sealant poorly applied, door seals that come adrift or loose screws?

If there was a good network of dealers in place them choice of source wouldn't be such an issue.

BTW: I've been waiting months for Swift to ship all the parts necessary to fix my vehicle in one hit. I don't think it will be this side of the New Year.

Colin


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## 111728 (Apr 28, 2008)

*invariably the buyer wanting huge discounts is the one that gives the most agro and needs to be avoided *

Peter

From that comment is PFS600 is agro? Or any other poster after a deal?


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> Secondly,
> 
> "...buying at a significant discount leaves the dealer with little to play with when it comes to aftercare."
> 
> ...


Peter,

I certainly don't expect to have my cake and eat it. There is a huge difference between you buying a number of cars for a business, at a discount, and a punter getting a few thousand off a motorhome. They are still a retail buyer and generally don't understand the implications.

When I bought my van, it was heavily discounted so they could shift it. I didn't ask for the discount, and still expected full backup. And they certainly didn't sell it to me 'wholesale'.

I agree totally about the 'buyer who wants full discount, then gives aggro' etc. But that is up to the dealer to decide. If he is being pushed that hard, he should make it clear that the van is sold 'as is'.

Yes, the pdi should be done correctly, but I virtually had to do it myself, and stayed at the dealer until things were right. The problem is 2.5 years later, the dealer still owes me big time for things they should have done.

My personal opinion now is, push the dealer on price as hard as possible, and accept that I will have to rectify problems myself.

It would be nice to be able to deal with a company like yours who pride themselves in their work. I am not, however, prepared to risk that I will get an acceptable level of aftersales and pay full retail for a van. (I'm talking hypothetically and not referring to JCM)

How would dealers feel if customers retained say 15% of purchase price for 6 months to ensure 'snagging' was done? I bet that PDI's would be done right then.

Having only dealt with 2 motorhome dealers, I can't honestly say I have had a representative experience of the entire market. I have, however, found a manufacturer that cares about its product, and is happy to support it (even though there is a lack of clarity as to who their dealer(s) in the UK are).

Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.

David


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

David,

I merely answered your questions and put my own personal views in as well.

We ocasionally have to shift vans at cost to move them on, we still give the same level of service irrespective of the retained profit.

If we are stuck with it, thats our problem not the retail purchasers.

Peter


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

SandJ said:


> Price for price copmarison about £20k for similar model. That was before the crash of the £ on the Euro as well.
> 
> To us a NO BRAINER, SWIFT win it for us.


I do wonder if this is part of the problem. Just thinking out loud but how much would be gained if Swift added £1000 to the price and spent all of that on extra bodies to more or less live in the MH for a day or two before it got signed off.

Employment up, satisfaction up, good sales angle, warranty costs down.


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## roger-the-lodger (Apr 21, 2008)

Kelcat said:


> Again this seems like a case of ; I want the cheap price from Dealer A - but I want the quick & local service of Dealer B - I just don't want to pay for it.


Another interesting thread that seems to be focusing on the dealer business model in the MH industry. One question I'd like to ask: What do you do if you know that your local dealer isn't much cop? Especially if the next nearest one is far away? Or if you move? Oops, sorry that was 3 questions - let's focus on the first.

Not everyone chooses the dealer on price, believe it or not! I chose my local dealer (4 miles from my house - the next nearest is 80 miles) not on price but simply on location because of the non-transferablility of the Swift habitation warranty. Incidentally there seems to be some uncertainty about this in Swift as I was told (at a senior management level - no names!) that the warranty "should be transferable"! However I notice Peter has not refuted the view in this thread that it isn't (at least not in practice). Anyway, the local dealer gave me a decent discount but not a ridiculous bargain and I bought on locality even though I had picked up rumours that the service there left something to be desired. I have to say that I would have bought locally pretty much regardless of price (though the dealer didn't know that of course! :wink: ). For me a 160 mile round trip is not acceptable for warranty work and I had no definite knowledge that the service standard would be any better. I was buying new and this was my first MH by the way.

You may be interested in my post-sales experience. I am without doubt a lucky Swift customer. I am delighted with my van and have had few problems. Swift has been enormously helpful to me in helping me with retro-fitting some options (a spare wheel and a tank heater). But I did have a teething problem (electrical wiring fault) on delivery. The dealer fixed this after two attempts. So at the next nearest dealer that would have been 320 miles in total then! 8O 8O 8O . He did it with help from me explaining to him how an interface unit worked and with ME providing a wiring diagram. I learned two things from this: (1) the dealer's workshop here lacks vital skills especially in electrics; (2) the dealer appeared to have little or no product documentation necessary for effective servicing and repair of Swift Group product.

I learned a third thing too - the dealer was not evil or lazy - his workshop simply lacked skilled and trained resources. Given that situation, there are almost certainly much worse dealers around, but I would still hesitate to take my MH back there for a habitation service. But if I DO have a problem that is supposedly covered under warranty, what should I do? I have to tell you that I'd be minded, if I couldn't fix it myself, to take it elsewhere and pay myself if necessary to get the job properly done!!!

So please don't assume all of us buy on price, thank you!!!

So there's a lot wrong with the implementation of the dealer model in this industry IMO. But I think it's an industry-wide problem and not specifically a Swift Group one. As for ex-factory build quality I don't know, but I suspect, that Swift is no worse than many others and probably better than most.

Roger

PS My handover took about 3 minutes! Why did I not protest and insist on it being properly done. Because it would have been futile! I knew more about the product than the sales guy before I'd even set foot in the van. His words not mine, by the way!


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Interesting thought hilldweller. I think the problem is that too many MH manufacturers and dealers are driven by the all important sale to an isolated individual who believes people like The Caravan Club and MH magazines are fighting on their side. Yeah, right. Once they have the punter's capital £ it is an unfair fight. Tell me why else people like Brownhills are so successful - aftersales service and value clearly comes way down the priority list going by the accounts we now see.

Which brings me to that I like to think communities such as MHF are turning the tables a bit. 

Dave


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## Kelcat (Apr 20, 2008)

Sadly a lot of customers do purchase solely on price - obviously not all - but a large proportion. In my experience it is most often these customers that go on to experience problems. Obviously individual businesses will have different profit ambitions - however when there is a significant difference in price - especially for the same product- then that cost will almost always be to the detriment of service levels.
To expand on Hildwellers idea - how many Swift (or other) customers would accept paying a premium to allow the transferaable warranty? - I suspect that most would insist that it was the dealers cost to bear.


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

DABurleigh said:


> Once they have the punter's capital £ it is an unfair fight. Tell me why else people like Brownhills are so successful - aftersales service and value clearly comes way down the priority list Dave


So if they came out of the factory gates not needing finishing off at the dealers *everyone* is a winner.

Arguably that £1K should come off the dealers' margin and not be paid for by the punter.

I'm now imagining a large unused area away from Hull, say a closed down factory, vans get driven there, driver sleeps in it, local team do checks by the book and it gets driven back for despatch or rectification.


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Hi,

As far as I am aware the warranty is on the MH, not the owner, we certainly have no problems on pre-owned Swifts taken in part exchange.

Any valid warranty problems in say second and third years are fully covered.

Same with appliances.

Peter


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

Kelcat said:


> To expand on Hildwellers idea - how many Swift (or other) customers would accept paying a premium to allow the transferaable warranty?


I can't understand why a warranty is not automatically transferable.

What possible excuse is there for this restriction ?


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## roger-the-lodger (Apr 21, 2008)

Kelcat said:


> To expand on Hildwellers idea - how many Swift (or other) customers would accept paying a premium to allow the transferaable warranty?


Interesting idea! Well, it wouldn't really help folk like me much, would it? I could pay the premium and still have to do the 160 mile round trip to get a decent job done (or more - how far is the nearest COMPETENT dealer for heaven's sake?). My only option is to buy from the competent guy (having somehow found out who that is) and put up with the high cost and gross inconvenience of travel there and back if I'm unlucky enough to have hit one of Peter's quality/process control problems (many of which I'm sure are with items from infeed suppliers).

Far better that Swift improves the quality and consistency of their dealers and makes sure they have skills and documentation to fix things. The OP seems to be in the classic situation each time he goes back of - 1 thing fixed, 2 new problems created!!! 

Roger


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## 111728 (Apr 28, 2008)

Off at a tangent-..an idea for Swift!

I can remember when the AA or was it RAC use to grade garages by a star system. ie 3 star, 4 star and 5 star. 2 was rare.

Maybe Swift can interface a service 'star' system. ie those that get the least customer complaint issues relative (as a percentage to sales). Therefore, a potential customer can gain some value from contributing comments for other potential customers (ie good or bad) to note if it is worth travelling further to get better service over price. Then the original poster may not have travelled all the way to Somerset. Or, it could prove, that he maybe better off (service wise going in a different direction)

It could used to try to increase the service quality (not the size of the depot or workshop). Swift award the merit from their customer feedback. That would indirectly encourage poorer performing dealers to shape up or pay attention to the fact their own competition is doing better and maybe increasing sales over them because the service award status. 

..only an idea, I do not know how important we would value it?


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## colonel (Oct 11, 2008)

saracen, maybe you could expand that to provide an extra 2% margin for the better dealers and 2% less for the poorer perfoming dealers.

I suspect however that the industry is so set in it's ways that any change would be heavily resisted. Still there is no better time for a manufacturer to weed out the poor performance.


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## duds (Sep 23, 2007)

It seem to me that the problems with new motorhome manufacture in UK is the same with manufacturing of all products today in a mass produced market.

In recent years, manufacturers have had it easy with full order books, demands exceeding supply, and have rushed out products to try to meet targets with grossly inadequate quality control checking at the factory end production line.

I believe the present, and to worsen, economic state of affairs in UK will sort out those manufacturers that survive and those that will fail. The former will take more time with detail of fit and finishing of products and care for reputation to customers and putting this before profit margin.

After all it makes sense when the warranty work caused by failures eats into company profits apart form the hassle.

Dealers will start to fail and those left will only want to sell products from manufacturers with good reputations for quality.


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## Kelcat (Apr 20, 2008)

Duds- I hate to tell you you're wrong, but...
very few UK manufacturing companies (in any sector) have had full order books over the last few years. This has primarily been driven by a consumer obsessed with price; hence the rise of the cheap imported good. I'm not talking about the inane plastic toy that comes from abroad, for the last few years China and others have been supplying increasingly complex (& historically skills led) components & finished goods to the west, putting an alarming amount of pressure onto Western manufacturers. Its not rocket science that they're able to do this through greatly reduced wage structures, component quality and not needing to offer end consumer support. Western manufacturers have had to 'cut their cloth accordingly' to remain in business in the face of competitors we've never seen the like of before & and radically changed level of consumer expectation.
If UK manufacturers are to remain viable, whilst continuing to offer their staff realistic wage levels, and offer their customers the levels of service that we traditionally have AND a quality product, then consumers will eventually need to start to pay a higher price level.
The first boss I ever worked for had a sign in reception that has stayed with me ever since;
We make 3 types of product. Good, Cheap & Fast. You can have any two.
If it's Good & Cheap it won't be Fast. If Its Cheap & Fast it won't be Good. If it's Fast & Good it won't be Cheap.


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

> Without doubt this forum has an influence on the Industry as I quote it all the time!!! Even with Tellbell keeping me on the straight and narrow! Peter.


 :lol: :lol: ... Praise indeed (I think!) :wink:


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## roger-the-lodger (Apr 21, 2008)

colonel said:


> ...Still there is no better time for a manufacturer to weed out the poor performance.


Yes I agree. If Swift were to improve dealer quality now it should give them competitive advantage when the economy eventually improves.

Saracen's idea is along the right lines; however for a manufacturer to rate dealers is hampered by the market buying on price (as it undoubtedly does). The price/quality relationship articulated so well by Kelcat is clearly illustrated in many different markets. If you look at mid-power (standby) generators (petrol or diesel) where the engine is the key component, you find a 4:1 price ratio for the same functional specification between the product using an engine designed in Japan or Europe and built with globally consistent processes and a product where design and manufacture has been vertically integrated in China or India and the engine literally has no name. Sadly the price is far easier for a buyer to determine than the reliability statistics; but industry experts will tell you that the MTBF (mean time between failure) of those products is not only positively correlated with price but spookily the price and MTBF ratios are often similar!

That doesn't mean that Swift can't get a good return on investment by improving accreditation of dealers including inspection, training and documentation as well as using customer feedback - I think they can.

They need to do similar work with supplier quality (sometimes vertically integrating the process if they can't get the required quality outside) and I think they are working hard on that.

But it's unrealistic to expect them to "sack" dealers or even low-rate them when they are selling product in a highly competitive market still driven by price. Rating has to be done by an independent organisation. That's why the RAC rated garages (sadly no more AFAIK).

A "Which" report on motorhome and caravan dealers, anyone?

Roger


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## Kelcat (Apr 20, 2008)

Within my particular industry (manufacture of windows, doors & conservatories) there are several voluntary schemes to offer the consumer various forms of protection and confidence. Most are (unsuprisingly) not worth the paper they're written on. We are Ombusdman registered (&therefore legally bound) and part of the process is that every customer is contacted and this feedback is available independently.
We find that we do get a percentage of "well I'm not paying for that" type customers - who we subsequently don't supply. However we get alot more informed customers who have researched the process and tend to buy into our companies ethos of supplying the best possible product with the best possible service levels. Whilst this may sound trite - I am happy to say that yes we tend to cost more - however we can show the consumer (we make for private individuals through to large national's) the benefits they get through buying an accredited product from a service led company. This has resulted in us not being the largest company in our sector - but we are one of the best thought of and we get alot of repeat business.
Whilst going to the levels of an Ombudsman scheme might be too far - surely the MH industry is large enough to run a similar scheme? The key is that every customer is contacted & the information is independently verifiable.
As an aside there is now a new ISO type Customer Service Standard being launched in 2009 under the banner - Putting Customers First - (a slogan that has been on my companies uniforms & Vans for over 7 years) if consumers were to start putting a monetary value on this aspect of the purchase process then companies would soon start to sign up for it.


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

duds said:


> Dealers will start to fail and those left will only want to sell products from manufacturers with good reputations for quality.


Darwin at work 

Though survival of the fittest does not mean survival of the nicest :-(


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## roger-the-lodger (Apr 21, 2008)

Kelcat said:


> ...Whilst going to the levels of an Ombudsman scheme might be too far - surely the MH industry is large enough to run a similar scheme? The key is that every customer is contacted & the information is independently verifiable...


Thanks for another very good post, Kelcat. I won't try to guess your company but I can't resist making the observation that at a tactical level the conduct of first-line sales agents in that industry can involve some rather dubious practices!!! :wink:

I would like to see the kind of scheme you suggest in the MH and Caravan industry - I think it would have to apply to both these sectors. In fact the National Caravan Council (NCC) does run an Approved Workshop scheme:

click here

But it seems rather ill-publicised and I'm unsure of the criteria for approval. The list contains large dealer chains and independents; it includes my local dealer who, as I have said, tries hard but admits to shortage of service skills; it includes the well-known JCM; it doesn't include the dealer 80 miles from me about whom I have heard good customer feedback - that may be because they do only motorhomes and do not sell or service towed caravans.

But it's a start, and beefing that scheme up and better publicising it could be a way forward. But heaven knows how you get that started!

Roger


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## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

> Hymer no problems.


hmmm as far as i can recall Hymers do have their fair share of common issues, leaking taps / collapsing hydraulics on overcab beds are a couple that i have heard of

ALL manufacturers have issues whether they be car or van manufacturers, the issue with MHs is they are far more complex beasts and so more to go wrong. Swift have had issues in the past but they are here to resolve any issues and if the number of happy recommendations on here for Swifts go then they are succeeding in filling a gap in the customer support model which other manufacturers appear not be doing and like DABs mentioned sites like MHF are forcing the industries to be more pro active which is only a good thing. How many other MH manufacturers on MHF have their directors engaged in ongoing conversations about their ranges and how to improve on them.

As an aside I am working on a dealer questionnaire which will be anonymous entries and which i will pass on to Swift and any other PARTICIPATING manufacturers who are members of MHF the full details and summarise the results on MHF, this will allow you to enter in details and rate customer service / handovers / ongoing care etc etc and will give the manufacturers some very useful information


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

nukeadmin said:


> > Hymer no problems.
> 
> 
> hmmm as far as i can recall Hymers do have their fair share of common issues, leaking taps / collapsing hydraulics on overcab beds are a couple that i have heard of


It seems to me that Swift scoop the board in here for complaints.

Is that just because they take the trouble to appear in here ?

Do they sell more than the others ?

Do they attract whingeing customers ?

Are they, were they, just guilty of poor quality control ?

Or a good mix of the above ?


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## Alfa_Scud (Sep 27, 2006)

hilldweller said:


> It seems to me that Swift scoop the board in here for complaints.
> 
> Is that just because they take the trouble to appear in here ?
> 
> ...


I'm convinced it's a bit of the old Mercedes / Ford principle - they both have problems but only Ford drivers are common enough (what I really mean is honest!) to admit it. If you've paid 40k for a car who are you gonna tell when it breaks down? No-one because they'll call you a snob & laugh at you  . However if you have a Ford (or in my case an Alfa - even worse!!), you don't mind shouting it from the rooftops when it breaks down.

In reality we all know modern Mercs* suffer from awful build quality, but noone talks about it, because they don't like it when Bob's Mondeo is better built!

I'm not saying Swift don't have problems, some probably do, but I also think they sometimes get treated a bit like the fat kid at school, & just get ripped to shreds at every opportunity.

*_Other badly built marques are available, and the above is the personal view of the poster & does not relate to the collective thoughts of the MHF community, or indeed any other community within the known universe - is that a good enough cop-out??_ :roll:


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## roger-the-lodger (Apr 21, 2008)

hilldweller said:


> It seems to me that Swift scoop the board in here for complaints.


You then ask (quoted questions in italics):

_1. Is that just because they take the trouble to appear in here ?_

Almost certainly. Less point in complaining when you know you're not being listened to by those you're complaining about. Much more point in complaining when you know they are listening!

_2. Do they sell more than the others ? _

Can't say - don't know their market share; but they're big enough for an industry average percentage of faults to translate into a number big enough to create lots of scope for complaints.

_3. Do they attract whingeing customers ? _

I shouldn't think any more than their competitors do! But see point 1 - we're gonna hear the whingeing in their case and not so much in the case of the other converters. As well as the complainants who are not whingeing but justifiably concerned, of course.

_4. Are they, were they, just guilty of poor quality control ?_

I did the factory tour recently and I've 30 years experience in manufacturing; my jobs had close involvement with quality. You asked two questions in one here - "are they" and "were they". I don't know about their past quality record, but hearsay suggests they had a bad period, have made strong efforts to improve and have been successful in doing so. I saw plenty of evidence that quality is taken seriously and managed pro-actively not just through inspection. I also detected that many problems relate to quality variance of infeed items from suppliers, because so many material items in any motorhome are outsourced by the final-assembly converter. A good example is the well-known problem with control panels. Another source of problems is undoubtedly the interfacing of vehicle and "habitation" (i.e. converter-installed) electrics (e.g. the reversing camera wiring); these two problem sources act in combination of course.

_5. Or a good mix of the above ?_

Yes, but with a bias towards (1) I think, and not so much towards (2), (3) and (4) - just my opinion, and I would expect others to disagree with that emphasis, particularly those who have encountered an unacceptable level of problems, perhaps made worse by the inadequacies of the dealer model.

Roger


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## Mikemoss (Sep 5, 2005)

Alfa_Scud said:


> In reality we all know modern Mercs* suffer from awful build quality, but noone talks about it, because they don't like it when Bob's Mondeo is better built!


I certainly don't mind admitting that the standad of rust (non)-protection and paint finish on my 1999 Merc estate is truly appalling, while the 1998 Fiat Ducato on Bessie hasn't got a hint of rust anywhere to be seen. Far less has gone wrong on the Fiat, too (and it has better mpg!). Depreciation has been 'interesting' too - from £40K+ when new to maybe £2500 on a very good day now.


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

> t seems to me that Swift scoop the board in here for complaints.


As has been suggested, much to do with coming on here I think. Recently oner Poster was criticised for whingeing on here directly to Swift & told in no uncertain terms that he should have complained to his Dealer.

Unfair I thought because without doubt Swift made the proverbial "Rod for own backs" by responding to Swift complainants & dealing with issues directly right from the onset and not referring them to Dealers. No wonder other Swift owners "try it on".

I join others in praising Swift for for being on here at all. (Honest Peter! :wink: ) What I am surprised at is what seems to be a constant repetition of the same faults reported by different owners which I would have thought should have been sorted at manufacturing level byn ow rather than the "work arounds" which often seem to be suiggested.


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

Y


Telbell said:


> > t seems to me that Swift scoop the board in here for complaints.
> 
> 
> As has been suggested, much to do with coming on here I think. Recently oner Poster was criticised for whingeing on here directly to Swift & told in no uncertain terms that he should have complained to his Dealer.
> ...


Yes we certainly have had trouble with the camera's and control panels and exterior doors the camera was self inflicted and the other items where caused by suppliers and we are doing something about them.For certain we attracy attention by being on the forum BUT I believe it is worth it.We have a market share of over 25% and that was when the UK was flooded with imported product.We try and give value for money and we certainly are very competative on price against all competition.We can do more and we will,we have a great opportunity next year as our competition is weak and we are financially strong we have to do better and I am sure we can build on our progress during 2008.Peter.


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

> .We can do more and we will,we have a great opportunity next year


Fair enough-thanks for prompt reply (now get back to your present wrapping & sherry & mince pies! :lol: :wink: )


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

Just reading through this post again and the title says "Problems with everything" 

I could count 3 Swift problems and 1 Fiat problem. 

Do people put titles like that just to grab attention? 

It does seem a bit OTT to me for 4 problems, which should maybe not have happen in the first place but are easily sorted out with the right attitude and communication. 

Please keep up the good work Swift 



Richard...


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## PFS600 (Jul 6, 2008)

Just for all you people out there who think i haggled for a massive discount and then complain when things go wrong, i bought the van at the NEC show, it was sold to me at £39,000, this is the price the dealer told me in the first instance, i did not get any more discount off it.

With regards to complaining when things go wrong, if more people in this country opened their mouths when things are not right, it would be a much better place, rather than mumbling under their breath, walking away and waiting for someone else to do it, a classic case of supplying the bullets but not prepared to fire the gun.

I stand by my convictions, for the amount of money we pay for a motorhome it should be perfect.


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## EJB (Aug 25, 2007)

I don't know wether it's been already been stated, it's too boring reading the whole thread, but the vast majority of owners, of anything, are very happy with their fault free products.

Obviously forums attract the complainers, a very few justified but many not.


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## roger-the-lodger (Apr 21, 2008)

PFS600 said:


> ...I stand by my convictions, for the amount of money we pay for a motorhome it should be perfect.


Sadly PFS, nothing in life is perfect.

I sympathise with your situation and I can readily understand how you feel. I saw nothing in your post that suggested to me that you were writing "just to grab attention" as implied, most unkindly in my view, by a recent poster. I have been lucky with my Swift motorhome and this has enabled me to see Swift's performance in a way that relates it to the industry as a whole, and takes account of the good points of which there are many. But I have the imagination, as some people do not seem to have, of the intense disappointment anyone would experience when something that they have paid handsomely for specifically to reduce stress in their lives, finds that they, initially at least, suffer the opposite effect and face weeks or months of hassle to put things right.

Yet realistically, the quality of complex product (especially where the supply chain is complex as it so often is) will never be perfect. The postive approach to this, especially by those who have been fortunate enough to escape problems, is to help improve matters so that they get that bit nearer to that ideal. That is, after all, what the product's designers and makers want to do also.

The OP may have succeeded in "grabbing attention" but did it by spawning an interesting and valuable thread. My next move is to go thank the original post!

Roger


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## PFS600 (Jul 6, 2008)

If its that boring, why bother looking at all, you have obviously never had any reason to complain about anything that you have bought, or have you?

Just sit back and relax Ted


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

PFS600...

I'm 100% with you on this subject - not just Swift but the whole MH industry. If you think you have problems then just take a quick look at mine.

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-52676-pixelpusher.html

I still haven't had all my problems fixed.

Colin


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## 96299 (Sep 15, 2005)

PFS600 said:


> Just for all you people out there who think i haggled for a massive discount and then complain when things go wrong, i bought the van at the NEC show, it was sold to me at £39,000, this is the price the dealer told me in the first instance, i did not get any more discount off it.
> 
> With regards to complaining when things go wrong, if more people in this country opened their mouths when things are not right, it would be a much better place, rather than mumbling under their breath, walking away and waiting for someone else to do it, a classic case of supplying the bullets but not prepared to fire the gun.
> 
> I stand by my convictions, for the amount of money we pay for a motorhome it should be perfect.


Absolutely agree with you 100%.I`m from the same stable. 

steve


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## ICDSUN (Oct 10, 2006)

Chigman said:


> PFS600 said:
> 
> 
> > Just for all you people out there who think i haggled for a massive discount and then complain when things go wrong, i bought the van at the NEC show, it was sold to me at £39,000, this is the price the dealer told me in the first instance, i did not get any more discount off it.
> ...


Agreed, the price you pay or discount received should not have any bearing on whether you get a good or bad MH, by the same argument if you paid extra would you get a fault free MH. The fact is that the MH leaves the factory with faults on it, that is un-acceptable, why should the dealer put right poor workmanship from the converter on a new vehicle, the component manufacturers should also ensure that their products are installed in accordance with their specs which is not always the case, leading to early failures.

Swift may be turning their reputation around, but it is still evident that they are still producing MH's that the new owner has to spend his time and effort to get fixed, I bought a German van, it shares a lot of the common habitation products with the Swift range so a judgment can be made about the conversion side of things very easily, the only problems we have had have been from a poor door seal on the Tec Tower oven, fixed while we were passing the dealer, the conversion side nil.

Hope you get sorted before too long as it does get to you the longer things drag on.

Chris


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## Ourduckpond (Sep 10, 2007)

*Swift Voyager 685 - Problems*

We have just completed the process of taking delivery of a new van, formally rejecting it, persuading the Dealership to provide a like-for-like replacement at no cost, and receiving our relacement van in a satisfactory condition.
You, like us, should find the Trading Standards Advice Leaflet "Buying Goods - your rights" to be a vital guide to the regulations of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended)and process.It can be downloaded from the Trading Standard Central - for consumers - advice website. On some local TS sites you will find a draft letter which may be useful - try the Business in Bournemouth - Public Protection - Trading Standards.
For clarification of any legal terms you may find confusing go to website "www.gillhams.com/articles/189.cfm which spells it out in laymans terms.
It is vital to keep a detailed chronology of events, correspondence, and telephone calls - and attach this to your formal letter of rejection - and to be pleasant but businesslike. Although you have signed a Handover Document the complexity of a motorhome allows you redress - Good Luck


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Ourduckpond,

Welcome to MHF and well done!

More details would be very welcome if you are free to do so.

Dave


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## tony50 (Oct 16, 2007)

*motor home faults*

Hi there, as said before under the Sale of Goods Act you must only deal with your problems with the Selling Dealer,not with the Manufactuer ,if you by pass the Dealer you will let him of the hook as i understand it but check this by getting legal advice.
After being in the motor industry for over 40 years i soon realised Motor Home manufactuers are about 20 years behind the Car and Truck Manufactuers in Quality control,I also beleive where companies in the Car and Truck industry have a job (BEG) to get a Main dealer ship,in the Motorhome business the Motorhome Manufactuers appear to (BEG ) Companies to sell their products in many instances,.
The other problem with build quality on motorhomes ,Manufactuers produce relatively few vehicles so they are not tried and tested like cars and not wishing to side too much with manufactuers they cannot afford to go through the same procedures as car manufactuers.

Ill ler gip carbarrundam ( Don't let the so and so's grind you down) Please for all our sakes and yours don't accept anything that isn't correct, another weapon i have used with certain companies ( not motor home companies as yet !) I ask them if they have Heard of WATCHDOG on the BBC ,if they yes, say if you don't soon sort out my problems you will be on it! Good Luck


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## PFS600 (Jul 6, 2008)

*THE STORY SO FAR*

Here we go with the story so far, we have just cut short a 5 day break by 2 days, this was effectively our first outing in the van, we have the new upgraded software version of the control panel 3.02, which to be honest is worse than the original, the panel switches itself off in the middle of the night, meaning should you get up in the dark you cannot switch a light on, we put up with this hoping that it was just a glitch, obviously it was not, we got home at 19.45 when it was dark, we cannot operate the step or the lights as they are all controlled by the panel, we are now of the impression that there is serious problems with the electrics on this van, on Monday we are taking it back to West Country Motorhomes and demanding either a full refund or a new van, will let you know how we get on. Cat if you are reading this thread please reply before Monday, i really need to speak to you.


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