# Over 7500kgs & car licence - DVLA update



## des

I have just been informed by a Driver Training School that they have just received a fax from DVLA stating "all drivers of motorhomes over 7500kgs MUST have a class C licence". (Sadly my own C+E test was declared void as lorry developed brake probs!)


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## olley

des said:


> I have just been informed by a Driver Training School that they have just received a fax from DVLA stating "all drivers of motorhomes over 7500kgs MUST have a class C licence". (Sadly my own C+E test was declared void as lorry developed brake probs!)


What a bummer des, as for the licence, they have been saying this for years, so nothing new there.

Olley


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## TonyHunt

According to George T in his posts on the subject DVLA are the only ones who insist on this. The police and all other departments say different. Be nice to know whos right one day.


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## des

Yes, Tony, and I know this topic has been done to death in the past. Just passing on the latest news; and suspect a crack-down may be on the way.


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## desertsong

Hello all,

Practical Motorhome, July issue, page 60 has an article clarifying this.

MC


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## kijana

Any danger of giving us an idea of what they say?


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## ingram

I have a PCV licence to drive buses; but if I converted a bus to a motorhome I would need a 'lorry' licence to drive it?................. the law as they say is an ass ( is that a British term as in ass /animal or an American term as in ass / bottom ) :? ........

I know that this has been discussed here and elsewhere at length ( or even that it as been  ) but the DVLA do not actually 'make' the laws / rules.

Harvey....under 7.5t


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## desertsong

Hello all,

For the benefit of Kijana, here is in essence what PM says,
If you passed your test before 1 January 1997, a category B, (car licence), allows you to drive stipulated vehicles, including motorhomes, up to MAM 7500Kgs.

If you passed after that date, you need to pass additional tests for category C1 - stipulated vehicles over 3500kgs, no upper limit specified.

All drivers licences expire om 70th birthday, but is automatically renewed every three years provided the driver's health continues to meet the required standards.

There is more, but it's too much to put all in here. 

The reason I didn't put it in before is that many of the subscribers on here also get Practical Motorhome. I was only tellilng you where you could find the information. It is also covered in depth on this site by George Telford.

Hope that helps,

MC


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## kijana

Merci, Monsieur.

Anyone know how much it costs to upgrade a C1 to a C rated licence?

(Just in case, or for the terminally law-abiding)


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## 94055

I have been driving a 7.5 ton vehicle on and of for years. I thought I could also drive a Motorhome up to 7.5 tons but that is not the case.
C1 & C1+e clearly states lorries Medium Sized Vehicles
C & C+E clearly states Large Vehicles 
So i am now :evil: What a load of :roll: :roll: :roll: 
This has now put the future plans up the spout.

See:
http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/vehicle_cat_desc.htm#Note 4

Steve


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## des

hi kijana. C1 to C is the same as car licence to C. i.e. the full LGV (used to be called HGV) rigmarole. This usually involves a week's training (but get an assessment from a driving school if you can) including a test. This will probably cost £800 to £1000. If you fail, retest will be somewhere around £225 for the lorry hire and the test fee. Oh yes, and I forgot, you have to do a new theory test, and pass a medical first. The theory test is not expensive, and DO NOT go for training on this. Buy the book, and buy a DVD or CD with practice hazard perception. Much cheaper, and probably better. Then the medical will cost you anywhere between £25 and £75 depending on who you go to. Took me three goes to pass, and total cost about £1500. Ouch! But in my view well worth it, as driving 8 tons is not the same as driving a car. Des.


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## desertsong

Hello Kijana & Stevercar,

Sorry fellas, looks like one of the few times in life that agism works in our favour with "Grandad rights" and all that.

It might help though if dealers let it be known when people are seriously considering buying something that these restrictions exist. But then, they would claim it's none of their business what licence a buyer has, he might be buying for someone else anyway.

I know George Telford had a posting on this site about it, he raised some good points, i.e., over 3500kgs might be a large vehicle, but as a motorhome it does not carry goods and therefore is not a LGV or Large Goods Vehicle. Maybe a search on here would throw up some more light. 

As for the DVLA, the less we ask people like that the better. If you pander to them they'll grab more power than they have now. They don't pass laws, Parliament does that. The DVLA don't make the rules. Get the information from the right source. If it is a "law", it must have been passed under some act with a name and number. Find it. Don't be bullied.

The Dept of Transport might be of some use. Send them an e-mail.

Happy travelling,

MC aka Willie


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## 97943

Hi All, interesting subject, I am in the process of buying a 34ft RV and having driven transit vans and a jeep with 18ft trailer for the last 5 years felt pretty confident about making the step up to a bigger vehicle, until I went and sat in the driving seat of a 34ft RV! 
We went to all the major dealers in the UK and a couple of shows and every time I asked about the license issue I got the same response with a few exceptions, like this: 
'There are plenty of people out there driving big RV's (over 7.5 tons) on a car license and they havent had any bother - BUT - it is completely and utterly at your own risk.' 
They then went on to explain that while this is a known fact about many RV drivers it doesnt make it right, also if you want to throw into the mix possible insurance hassles. I had a good think about the situation and the costs involved with sitting an LGV test and all things considered I think its a no brainer. I sat my test, somehow passed first go (even though I kerbed it coming out the test centre!) and am now feeling a lot better about driving a vehicle as big as the RV. Its given me experience and knowledge of handling a big vehicle (test lorry was 33ft) and more importantly the confidence to get behind the wheel. All in the costs were about £800 but the piece of mind is worth a lot more, just knowing you're legal rather than worrying every time you see a flashing blue light behind you. 
Just my 2 cents
Cheers
J


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## desertsong

hi there,

Good point Felixcor. We looked at RV's before we settled on our Cheyenne 840, a measily 28ft, but still a long way from a car. When we asked dealers about the licence they looked blank, shrugged and said something to the effect of, "dunno, it's a bit of a grey area." Not good enough when you consider the amount of money they are looking for or the fact that if you can't drive the damned thing you're a danger on the road.

That said, it still isn't a goods vehicle, it's a motorhome, but I take your point about the confidence the test would give you.

Willie


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## kijana

Thanks to all for replies on mine re C licence.

On balance, I think I probably will go for the ticket, as much for the training as anything else. 

I did (voluntary) advanced training when I got back into biking after 30 odd years off, and it did a lot for my skills.

Sure one can argue the toss about legalities. I'm bludgered if I can figure out what my 1972 issue licence actually qualifies me to drive, given that an RV is clearly not a goods vehicle aka lorry.

But if I'm going to be spending all this money, and driving not just a van but my home, then it would seem sensible to bite the licence bullet.

That just leaves the question of what width of vehicle I can drive - and there seems precious few RV's that would genuinely measure in at less than 100.39" on the road.

Oh dear. It all seemed such a good idea at the time. Now I'm working my notice and selling the house, and we STILL don't know what we'll finish up with. 

Please, don't let it be some poky little European panel van that costs 40 grand of our British pounds!



p.s. I'm off to Portugal (working) for a couple of weeks at O silly hundred hours tomorrow morning, so offline now til I get back.


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## des

I'm with you kijana - got to be the sensible approach. good luck, and happy rv-ing.


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## 97785

kijana said:


> That just leaves the question of what width of vehicle I can drive - and there seems precious few RV's that would genuinely measure in at less than 100.39" on the road.


There is much discussion about the width of motorhomes. No one, including the dealers are sure where they are measuring from. There are rumours that all awnings, grab handles, slide topers need to be taken off in order for american motorhomes to be registered here in the UK. Even talks of exhuast pipes to be cut down!

Who knows......

Maybe someone should contact either the DVLA or a main dealer to see what the current state of play is.

Craig


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## 98452

I have a C1 + E passed in 1971.

PRESS

So it's 7500 Kgs + trailer up to 750 Kgs

Then it's goes on to say this on another page:- C1+E HERE

Lorries between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailer over 750kg - total weight not more than 12000kg (if you passed your category B test prior to 1.1.1997 you will be restricted to a total weight not more than 8250kg)


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## 99657

mobile project vehicles - having a maximum authorised mass exceeding 3.5 tonnes and constructed/adapted to carry not more than 8 persons in addition to the driver and carries principally goods or burden consisting of 

i. play/educational equipment and articles required in connection with the use of such equipment

ii. articles required for the purposes of display or of an exhibition, and the primary purpose of which is used as a recreational, educational or instructional facility when stationary

Drivers must be aged 21 and have held a category B licence for at least 2 years. A mobile project vehicle may only be driven on behalf of a non-commercial body. However, drivers who passed their car test before 1 January 1997 are not subject to these conditions.

This is from the DVLC website under driving large vehicles on a car licence, motorhomes/RV no longer exist  rename them mobile project vehicles :twisted:


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## 89348

Well, this will probably upset a few people, but whatever,
I have read nearly all these threads and posts by people who seem to think that because they drive an RV, that they are above the law, the C+U regulations are very clear, as are the licence requirements.Full stop (or should I say period ), the fact that somebody on here will say " in my opinion, you can blah blah blah" will not wash in the event of you being prosecuted. And the way the DOT are cracking down on motorists, that is when, not if.
The licencing laws are set by the DOT and regulated by a goverment agency (you would think that the Driver and Vehicle licencing Agency, would have been a clue).
For vehicle licencing purposes your RV is an LGV regardless of whether you carry goods or not. and to drive a vehicle over 7500kgs requires the appropriate licence (again, despite what some peoples opinions are )
You CANT claim that you can drive an RV up to 8250 kgs on an ordinary licence, that weight applies ONLY if you are towing a trailer. If you want a C1+E licence, take the test like the rest of us, Oh and dont forget that you have to renew it every 5 years if you are over 45 and that the DVLA (remember them, they are the ones that somebody on here said haven't the authority to say who needs a different licence ) have the right to refuse the issue of a C1+E licence for various medical reasons, being an insulin dependant diabetic, for instance, will probably exclude you from getting one, so beware.

Nobody (I hope) on this forum would knowingly take their "tacky little European panel van :evil: ) on the road with no licence, so why do you drivers of oversize, overweight and ultimately uninsured vehicles, think you have the right to do so ?

This rant is aimed at no-one in particular, but everyone in general, as they say "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing ". If you are unsure as to where you stand legally, ask the people who are responsible,i.e the DVLA, dont rely on Johnny's opinions, Do you honestly believe he/she would be able to go to court and get you off a charge of driving without the appropriate licence on the defence that "their opinion is different to the law". 

And remember, the police don't make the law, they uphold it. VOSA can stop any vehicle on the road (not just lorries), and yes they can give you a prohibition notice taking your vehicle off the road immediately.

And before anybody asks, I have held a class 1 HGV as it used to be called, for over 20 years, I have considerable experience in moving loads of over 100 ft,and here's one for you, I was stopped by VOSA whilst under police escort with a long load, they measured the load,looked at the movement order and prosecuted my boss because we were 7 inches over the notified length, So please don't think they have no power over you just because you drive an RV.


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## DABurleigh

euroanchor,

I have no axe to grind, being content with my 3500kgs panel van, and I'm not looking for an argument, but I think you will find, contrary to your claim, that the law is by no means clear on the licensed weight limit for a motorhome.

This post is a good one to start at:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-106966.html#106966

Yes, the DVLA and others are trying to make weight generic in their guidance, etc., but this doesn't change the law.

Dave


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## 89348

DABurleigh said:


> euroanchor,
> 
> I have no axe to grind, being content with my 3500kgs panel van, and I'm not looking for an argument, but I think you will find, contrary to your claim, that the law is by no means clear on the licensed weight limit for a motorhome.
> 
> This post is a good one to start at:
> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-106966.html#106966
> 
> Yes, the DVLA and others are trying to make weight generic in their guidance, etc., but this doesn't change the law.
> 
> Dave


I'm sorry mate, but which law are you talking about ? is it the one that says "all RV owners can make up their own mind about things,just because they drive a motorhome, which in their "OPINION" isn't a vehicle at all. Which, by the way, is how driver licencing has been regulated for many years.

Would you be happy to allow somebody without the proper licence to drive a 17 tonne truck on our roads, I doubt that very much, but what if he said that he has had a few years experience towing a trailer with his transit, would that be any different ?

How about somebody in his 35ft,9000kg RV running into your car, writing it off,injuring your wife/kids, then tells you that this was the first time he'd driven anything this big, a couple of days later the police inform you that because he was driving a VEHICLE that exceeded the weights permitted by his licence,his insurance was invalid (thats why the insurance companies add the little details about cover only being valid if the driver holds the relevant licence), how would you feel then ?

The post you are on about refers to a 5 year old case, things have changed, and George Telford is going on about imports 45 years ago, Just what relevance does that have on todays licencing laws. And this is what these posts are about.

And yet again I will paste this from the DVLA website

If you passed your driving test before 1 January 1997 and have the vehicle category C1 on your licence you can drive a vehicle of a weight between 3500kg to 7500kg MAM with a small trailer weighing up to 750kg.

If you have the vehicle category C1+E you can drive a vehicle of a weight between 3500kg to 7500kg MAM with a trailer weighing up to 750kg or a combined weight, vehicle and trailer, of up to 8250kg MAM.

If you passed your driving test on or after the 1 January 1997 you are limited to driving vehicles up to 3500kg MAM, having not more than 8 passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg

Really people, everybody would be well advised to remember that, even if your opinion is different from the DVLA, it doesn't matter, you are bound by the same laws as everyone else on the road, Ultimately the DVLA grant us an entitlement to drive, it's not a god given right, and rightly or wrongly, they can revoke or refuse a renewal request of that licence at any time.

I dont work for them and I dont agree with the powers that they have been granted, even more so I despise the "little hitler "attitude of a lot of VOSA operators, but it doesn't change the fact that the law is the law, and like it or not, if I want to carry on driving what I do, then I have to comply with the law.

When you import your vehicle from the states or even from Europe, you have to make changes (lighting etc) to comply with british C+U regulations, if your vehicle doesn't comply, you cant use it. what makes you believe you can ignore the regulations regarding driving licences ?

Like I said in my original post, this is not a personal attack on anybody specific, I have absolutely no desire to enter into a slanging match either, but as somebody who has to operate a business that is constanly scrutinised by the DfT, Vosa and all the other bodies, I think I can safely comment on what the licencing laws are. And believe me , there are no more grey areas, everything is black and white and crystal clear :?

And I'm quite content with my 5.6mt (and well under 7500kgs)Hymer, thank you very much.


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## Scotjimland

euroanchor said:


> Really people, everybody would be well advised to remember that, even if your opinion is different from the DVLA, it doesn't matter,


Hi

I have no axe to grind either, but I disagree on this point, because it does matter, the DVLA interpret the law and are bound by the same acts of parliament that you and I are, they do not make the law. 
Can you point to the Act that governs motorhomes, weights and driving licences .. ? 
I sympathise with your concerns but that doesn't change anything, it remains an anomaly that does need clearing up with proper legislation.

A car licence with , group A & E entitles the holder to drive any vehicle except; D, (a motor bicycle); G, (road roller); H, (tracked vehicle).

A PSV is required for Large Passenger Vehicle (more than 9 persons) and an HGV for a Goods vehicle over 7.5 ton.

On this licence the term 'Any Vehicle' covers motorhomes.. and is not weight dependant..

There is, to the best of my knowledge, no law that changed this.


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## 100734

I have to say that I agree with Jim on this. Under the road traffic act a HGV /LGV used to be defined as vehicle designed to carry or bear goods. Wether it still is I dont know. But the fact remains a motor home is not a LGV or a PCV and as Jim says is any vehicle and not weight dependant.

The point which is missed here is yes training is probably required but what training. An LGV ia as different to driving a large RV as riding motorcycle with a sidecar is to riding solo. Yes training in an LGV gives you a better perception of driving a large vehicle but their the similarity ends.
A coach PCV is more similar but again many differences.

At the end of the day to be 100% sure of not being tangled up in red tape yes have a LGV but dont expect your training or test to prepare you for driving an american motorhome because it does not.

Oh yes I do hold an LGV PCV and ran a driver traing school for many years and also taught road traffic national and internatiol CPC courses

Regards

Dave

Dave


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## Scotjimland

Hi Dave 

I forgot to mention, you cannot train nor take your Class 2 test in an RV.. because it is not a goods vehicle.. 
Perhaps we need a new class and test for a recreational vehicle over 7.5 ton


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## 100734

Hi Jim,
Your right again,

Who said the laws an ass

The sensible way forward would be recreational training. but I bet that wont happen. :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Regards

Dave


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## pandj

Hi Guys!

It's really interesting that such an important matter is so tangled and confused! As an LGV/PCV driving instructor, I have to say that Euroanchor is spot on with everything he says (on a quick read through) Jim, I think you are probably looking at an old style licence? The DVLA website (love 'em or more likely loathe 'em) is pretty explicit about what you can drive on which licence. Incidentally, my new motorhome (MAM 3850 Kg) is registered as a private heavy goods vehicle.

Cheers, John


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## Scotjimland

Hi John 

It may be an old style licence but it's legal and in date .. 
My RV, GVW 8.5ton is registered Private/Light Goods and class 4 MOT ..


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## pandj

Hi Jim - I'm sure your licence is fine, just saying that nowadays cars are B, buses are D, E is a trailer when added to another letter eg B+E = car and trailer, D+E is bus and trailer.

As for the registering, I must admit to being ignorant and bemused - the only good thing is that though my licence disc says private HGV, it only cost £165, which is £30 less than my Freelander - don't tell the Chancellor, I gather it's a category he's forgotten about or is not aware of!

As I said, confusion reigns!

Cheers, John


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## 89348

Hi

I have no axe to grind either, but I disagree on this point, because it does matter, the DVLA interpret the law and are bound by the same acts of parliament that you and I are, they do not make the law. 
Can you point to the Act that governs motorhomes, weights and driving licences .. ? 
.

A car licence with , group A & E entitles the holder to drive any vehicle except; D, (a motor bicycle); G, (road roller); H, (tracked vehicle).

On this licence the term 'Any Vehicle' covers motorhomes.. and is not weight dependant..

There is, to the best of my knowledge, no law that changed this.[/quote]
It seems Ironic that the only people argueing (or disagreeing)about my posts, are the ones who are driving illegally in overweight or oversize vehicles.

Yes Jim, you are right, the DVLA do not make the laws on licencing, they are there to issue and control licences for drivers and vehicles, the legislation regarding weights,licences etc etc is passed and ammended by the DfT, then passed on to the DVLA for enforcement.
The following are taken from a direct government website (not the DVLA) and include an address you can write to.

All enquiries concerning maximum weights of rigid vehicles, trailers and articulated combinations should be referred to:

Transport, Technology and Standards
Department for Transport
Zone 2/01, Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DR

Email: [email protected]

The DVLA main web site will direct you also, if you follow the link headed "permitted vehicle weights "

many posters seem to enjoy saying that the law is an ass, but surely, somebody who ignores the law is an even bigger one.

And if your licence still has class A, as your car entitlement, you really need to get a new one, class A is for motorbikes, and has been for a long time.


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## sallytrafic

I know of no rule/law that says Jim has to have a new licence just because his old one uses incorrect terminology. On the other hand and for that very reason Jim can't rely on information on his licence as a statement of law. Likewise relying on what it says on your vehicle registration document can only be safe at the time of issue. Generally (but of course there was one major exception) these documents are not reissued to bring them up to date with legislation.


There is one problem with legislation and that is knowing which parts are retrospective. For example we all know about the weight restriction on licences which don't apply retrospectively to those with licences dated before 1997. 

As a non RV example and therefore I hope non-contentious. The electrical wiring in my house isn't up to current standards for either the wiring ((BS 7671) or building regulations (part P) but again there is no need for me to change it just because the rules have changed. How many of us have an old appliance where the three pin plug hasn't got shielded pins, perfectly legal to use but illegal to sell or so trading standards have told me.

Regards Frank


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## DABurleigh

"It seems Ironic that the only people argueing (or disagreeing)about my posts, are the ones who are driving illegally in overweight or oversize vehicles. "

I'm not (3500kgs panel van). Though I'm not disagreeing per se, merely raising the possibility that your conviction may be misplaced. What you say about DVLA and other authorities' published opinion is correct, but I am not alone in strongly suspecting that opinion (wishful thinking for a more consistent line, if you like) is at odds with the law as it stands. Nothing more, nothing less. I wouldn't want MHF members to be misled.

My understanding is that, in law, a motorhome is not (necessarily) a goods vehicle and that driving a motorhome over 7500kgs on a car licence is also legal.

I also believe DVLA and DofT wish it were different, but as yet, it's not.

Anyway, I've asked them to point me to the law that proves I'm wrong, so when they do, as you are convinced they can, I will be the first to eat public humble pie.

Dave


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## 94055

Has a Lawyer ever commented on this subject? I can not remember seeing any comments on posts before this. I doubt if a Lawyer would comment as it is a nightmare and one day itwill have to be dealt with or one reason or another. Rather sooner than later for me.

For what it's worth I agree with Jim.


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## des

Just in case you haven't noticed, can i suggest you avoid saying "euroanchor" in the pub. could do without this on the forum.


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## desertsong

Hi all,

Interesting debate, chaps, where it seems like everybody it right. Anyway, the crux of the matter seems to be when did you take your test and what test did you take? The thing is, the law could change every other week, but laws cannot be implemented retrospectively. The DOT knows how many licences have been issued in what categories and how long it will take for all the fogies, (young & old), to die off leaving the pitch free for however they want it to be.

The other thing is that under European Law, you have rights that can supercede that of your own country, (if and when it suits your government). All laws have built in escape routes just in case the people who drafted them get caught out. Cynical? Show me a lawyer who isn't. Laws are dreamed up by politicians, who coincidentally, in their other profession outside the house, is lawyer. That's lucky! No wonder we can't beat them.

You used to be able to drive a bus on a car licence as long as you had less than nine passengers, how would the weight and size affect that now then?

So, yes we have rights, but they know how many of us have what and is it worth the DOT worrying about it when they know we will mostly all be seventy fairly soon anyway. What concerns them more at the moment is the number of stretch limos in the country. All very long, carrying too many passengers and "questions are being asked in the House" as they have now realised that there are 11,000 of these things roaming the streets not on Saturday nights. The seem to come in only two colours, white and shocking pink. Ugh!!!!

As to the name Euroanchor, very funny. In fact, I never noticed the joke till it was pointed out. We need some more wit on this site, not less. 

Willie


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## DABurleigh

"Anyway, the crux of the matter seems to be when did you take your test and what test did you take?"

Willie,

It may be for what a lot of people on this thread are talking about, but I believe (maybe wrong) that my statement above:

"My understanding is that, in law, a motorhome is not (necessarily) a goods vehicle and that driving a motorhome over 7500kgs on a car licence is also legal."

is quite general and not dependent on when one passed one's test.

Dave


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## 89348

DABurleigh said:


> "
> What you say about DVLA and other authorities' published opinion is correct, but I am not alone in strongly suspecting that opinion (wishful thinking for a more consistent line, if you like) is at odds with the law as it stands. Nothing more, nothing less. I wouldn't want MHF members to be misled.
> 
> My understanding is that, in law, a motorhome is not (necessarily) a goods vehicle and that driving a motorhome over 7500kgs on a car licence is also legal.
> 
> Anyway, I've asked them to point me to the law that proves I'm wrong, so when they do, as you are convinced they can, I will be the first to eat public humble pie.
> 
> Dave


Well Dave, I'm glad to see you are not taking this personal, and for that I thank you, However, I must point out a couple of things,
Firstly, the Dept for Transport dont publish opinions, they tell you the facts,full stop.

And I really wish everybody would stop trying to use the "my motorhome is not an PSV or a goods vehicle " to justify their beliefs

"My understanding is that, in law, a motorhome is not (necessarily) a goods vehicle and that driving a motorhome over 7500kgs on a car licence is also legal."

Honestly mate, how much clearer does it have to be before people accept that the facts are........... on a standard class c licence you may drive a *vehicle*up to and including 7500kgs
It means "VEHICLE" not lorry, not PSV,not even a space ship. The dictionary defines a VEHICLE as a mechanically propelled means of travel. And the cps would use that wording to prosecute you (I really hope that never happens to anybody on here, but it will)

Slightly off subject, but relevant, is this.....How many people on here would be willing to drive through a police cash point.....sorry speed.....NO wait , it's a safety camera, at well above the speed limit, then justify their actions and refuse to pay a fine by saying that...." according to guidlines fixed cameras must be placed where there has been a specified number of serious accidents" and that nobody had had an accident at that location for a long time ?

You know you wouldn't get away with it, and unfortunately the harsh reality is that you are not going to avoid prosecution for licencing offences if you get caught driving your RV if it's over 7500kgs

PS Cheers Willie, I've been using that name for years, and it usually raises a chuckle


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## des

hi euroanchor. i see you have got carried away. on a standard class c licence you can drive rigid body lgv. i.e. over 7500kgs. des. ps. no need to shout.


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## 89348

My humble apologies Des, it was supposed to say car licence,not class c.  

I wasn't shouting, I just put in some big letters. :roll:


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## Rapide561

*Large vehicles*

Hi

This is clearly a very grey area and one that will no doubt run and run.

As there is no clear ruling - that is crytal clear - then I guess it is at the drivers responsibility.

If I was the owner of a 40 feet motorhome weighing 10 tonnes for example, then would I be legal to drive it?

It is not a car, it is not a lorry and it is not a bus. There are members on here who have licences for all three categories.

Moving slightly off topic, I quote my little 63 year old auntie as an example. We were talking about RVs and she could not believe that she could drive a Suzuki Alto today and then tomorrow be driving a Damon Intruder or similar without any legal requirement for formal training.

In my own opinion the governing factor is the weight - 7500 kgs - that is easily said. It is still not defining the class of vehicle.

Additionally, a colleague has a car licence only. Yet he owns a very old double decker bus and he can drive it apparantly on his car licence as he is not plying for hire or reward.

The whole situation needs some clarification.

But hey - what ever the rights and wrongs - let's not fall out about it.

At then end of the day, if the driver on an RV is prosecuted for driving a 9000 kg vehicle on a car licence after reading threads like this, then it is his bad news. Equally if another member takes the HGV rigid test, pays out £1200.00 or thereabouts and is then never asked to show his documents whilst driving his RV, then ......

We could go on for hours.

HGV licencing in my opinion covers HEAVY GOODS VEHICLES. An RV is a PRIVATE GOODS VEHICLE in law as far as I am aware. So even in this short statement there is conflicting information.

I think this subject is like gas attacks - best left alone.

Rapide561


----------



## 89539

We have a problem too. We bought our current motorhome back in February thinking it was 3500kg (as that is what it says on the V5 form). However, a trip to the VOSA weighbridge 2 weeks ago confirmed that it was 3850kg. We've been driving illegally since then :? 

My wife and I both PASSED our drivers tests in 1983, but the DVLA has applied the 1997 rule to us as we only exchanged them for UK licences after 1997.

My beef, is that the photocard licence shows the pass date as 1983 on all the categories we have been given, has even given us a B + E with "<1997" in the box next to it. So my question, is what part of the legislation did they use to justify their discrimination? We know of several people who passed their tests pre 1997 and exchanged pre 1997 and have all the categories.

I have bought the theory book for the C1, and honestly, there is not a lot in there has has anything to do with driving a motorhome. What do I care what the colour of the brake hoses are and how many copies of what form I need when exporting goods to the EU? Worse, since our motorhome is less than 4000kg, we'll have to hire a lorry to pass the test. It's just plain silly.

Pete


----------



## Rapide561

*Licence*

Hi

I am just on the phone to South Yorkshire Police asking them what they could charge me for if I was stopped driving a 9000kg RV whilst in possession of a car licence obtained prior to 1997.

The gentleman thinks it would not be legal but he has gone away to check.

Back again and he is going to verify it with the traffic law department and will ring me back.

Rapide561


----------



## 89539

Oh, forgot to add. The law IS an ass  

We can happily downrate our motorhome to 3500kg for £65. We would not be overweight with just us inside. I could then tow a trailer with the same motorhome (up to 3500kg) with all our food and possessions inside.

Same motorhome, same licence, greater overall weight by the weight of the trailer and probably another 4m longer?

I still say it's silly and the sooner they come up with a sensible category for motorhomes the better. I'll happily pay for relevant training and a relevant test.

Pete


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## des

Hi Pete. Can't take a lorry test in any sort of motorhome. There are clear definitions of what you can and can't use. See the government webstite linked above. I would recommend to anyone NOT to take a C1 test. It is exactly the same as the C test, except for the weight of the vehicle. Costs the same. There are some training companies with quite small C vehicles (smaller size makes it much easier to keep off kerbs, and if you mount one on test, automatic failure). However, these smaller vehicles will not be legal for test purposes before long. Currently can use a 6 speed box, flat bed. Before long, will have to be an 8 speed splitter box with a box or curtain back. Also will have to be partially loaded, I believe. So, if anyone is contemplating a C test, recommend getting on with it sooner rather than later. In my view, the training received is essential for driving a large vehicle for personal safety. Stuff the law, I just want to survive. Not to mention preserving my rv. Des


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## 94055

> My wife and I both PASSED our drivers tests in 1983, but the DVLA has applied the 1997 rule to us as we only exchanged them for UK licences after 1997.


Pete
I do feel sorry for you, 
I had been driving 7.5 ton vans off and on for years, anyway I sent licence off for change of address. They sent licence back with missing class!!!!!!!!! It took a long but well versed phone call for them to re-instate my driving classes for 7.5 ton.


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## peppermintpattie

Link Here

The link above goes to the Department of Transport web site and is specifically targeted at motor homes. Spells out weights permitted, lengths and widths as well as licences. Also states that motor home retailers are responsible for pointing out weight restrictions! and that driving with the wrong licence will invalidate your insurance.


----------



## des

Hi norwegian blue. sorry to hear of your probs. yes, the law is an ass. but i don't think your combined tow vehicle + trailer can exceed 3500kgs. as usual, could be wrong. des.


----------



## des

hi peppermintpattie. whilst i (probably) agree with you, others will continue to point out that this is just their opinion, untested in law, which does not refer specifically to motorhomes. many on this forum will remember GT's very strongly stated views on this subject! until and unless there is a successful prosecution, this story will run and run. at least i can sit here in comfort with my C+E (cost me £2.5k) knowing that whatever the outcome, i am legal and insured.


----------



## 89539

Thanks Des and others.

According to the guidance on the direct.gov website, I would be entitled to drive a vehicle / trailer combination where the vehicle may not exceed 3500kg and the trailer may not exceed the unladen mass of the vehicle (so probably a 3500kg motorhome with a 2000kg trailer or a total train weight of around 5500kg MAM). But I can't drive just the motorhome at 3850kg. Insane or what? Actually possibly a bit less in practice as the train weight of my motorhome now is stated as 5200kg.

I must admit, my first choice would be to replate the motorhome to 3500kg. I don't want to own or drive an RV and my next motorhome will be smaller again. I certainly never intend to drive a lorry. The motorhome is only this big now to accommodate the kids. I recon another 3 years, it'll just be the 2 of us again and we'll go smaller. I have to wait another 23 years for retirement  but hopefully by then this mess will be sorted out :wink: 

Pete


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## sallytrafic

peppermintpattie said:


> http://www.direct.gov.uk/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/WhatCanYouDriveArticles/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=10037875&chk=rzmt4D
> 
> The link above goes to the Department of Transport web site and is specifically targeted at motor homes. Spells out weights permitted, lengths and widths as well as licences. Also states that motor home retailers are responsible for pointing out weight restrictions! and that driving with the wrong licence will invalidate your insurance.


The website seems to set everything out very clearly and the page is headed "Driving motorhomes". It may be just their view of the law but I doubt that an individual could mount a defence against such clear wording. If have asked them to quote the SIs so I can check it. I wonder where GT is? Is this being discussed on other RV sites.

Regards Frank (neutral observer with C1 and C1E licence but only a 3085Kg van)


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## Sharnor

It seems that only a "test case" will sort the matter out. So does anyone know the name of a firm of solicitors who specialise in "driving license" issues?? 

I tried speaking to the AA legal department, but was told they don't have one anymore. Does the RAC or Green Flag have a legal department for advise?? 

What about Motorhome Facts collecting a "fund" and pushing a test case??? 


Norman


----------



## des

hi norwegianblue
the 3500kgs limit is combined tow vehicle & trailer. trailer not to exceed 50% tow vehicle weight. beware of down-plating. may not have sufficient payload. c1 or c test costs as follows:

theory test - current fee
medical - £25-75 depending on where you go
practical training a £800 -£900 including test
allow at least one retest £225

yes, a lot of dosh, but if you do this as a C, covered for whatever. Good investment in my view. compared to what we spend on our mh's not a vast amount if considered for say a 10 year period, perhaps £150p.a. added to operating costs.


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## 94055

May help further as I can drive up to 8250kg

Another point worth mentioning is codes
I have
B
BE
C1
C1E ......Code 107 I am entitled to drive up to not more than 8250kg
D1.........Code 101 Not for hire or reward
D1E Code 101,119.....119 is Weight limit does not applly (strange? no weight limit????????)

Codes can be found

Codes Here

Plus other Category

Some I am allowed to drive are

Here

But no mention of

L & N What are they? Anyone help

Thanks

Steve


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## 89539

Hi Des,

That is for a category B where the trailer cannot exceed 750kg and the total cannot exceed 3500kg. A "B + E" which I have allows a greater limit. Now why was I given a "B + E" which one doesn't get automatically post 1997 and not a C1? Double standards somewhere, and the DVLA don't appear too keen to explain or help. All the documentation refers to when one "passed" ones licence, not when it was exchanged.

My wife and I both need the licence so it's double your estimates and for an investment for 3 years max is not worth it IMHO. As I said, I have no wish to own or drive an RV or a lorry. Just my current M/H and then we will probably dip down within the 3500kg limit again. By doing nothing wrong myself, the way the DVLA has applied the law has turned me into a criminal, where on a technicality someone my age having passed the same test at the same time is not. Of course I am biased, because I am the one who will be another £3k out of pocket :roll: 

However, by re-plating my M/H for £65 and piling my heavy stuff into my dinghy (and/or trailer) I comply with the law once more. A much cheaper option methinks, but I think it is bizarre and nonsense. If I get pulled over and I am still a bit over the 3500kg limit, I can just pile more into the trailer (assuming that I don't go beyond it's axle load limits). At least I know it is not beyond the vehicles capability and thus no real danger to my family.

I do think this mess needs to be challenged by the legal eagles and a sensible outcome found.

Pete


----------



## Rapide561

*Test case*

Hi

I seem to think there was a case where the police were going to press charges. Unless I have dreamt this, Travelworld RV used their company solicitor to defend the dirver. The case was thrown out.

I just do not know where I read it.

Rapide561


----------



## Scotjimland

*Re: Test case*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> I seem to think there was a case where the police were going to press charges. Unless I have dreamt this, Travelworld RV used their company solicitor to defend the dirver. The case was thrown out.
> 
> I just do not know where I read it.


Try here Russell, http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-847.html

this thread ran for ever ... a lot of info from GT


----------



## Rapide561

*Weights/licences*

Well Jim - what can I say

George certainly added input to that thread!

RW


----------



## sprokit

> On Mon Sep 04, 2006 at 3:22 pm ScotJimland wrote
> 
> Can you point to the Act that governs motorhomes, weights and driving licences .. ?


Hi all
Been following this thread for my sins - I'm one of the guys referred to by one correspondent as "a little hitler from VOSA" (note the capitals - no I'm not shouting - that's the correct acronym), no offence taken by the way - I admit some of my colleagues can go over the top.

Anyway, driver licensing is one of the many subjects I have an interest in - a lot of what's been said is correct, but a lot is urban myth - the Regulations (not an Act, Jim) are contained in "The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1996" and can be found at http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19962824_en_1.htm

As euroanchor said - it doesn't matter whether it's a car, a van, an HGV (or as they like to term it these days - an LGV), it's a vehicle and there is no differentiation between a 7.5 tonne boxvan or flatback and an RV - they're all vehicles and the weight limits apply.

To drive a vehicle in excess of 7.5 tonnes you have to take a Category C driving test - this entitles you to then drive any rigid vehicle (up to and including the biggest 8 legger you can find) irrespective of weight.

If you passed your test before 1997 (January 1) then you will automatically be entitled to drive a vehicle up to and including 7.5 tonnes, but will be limited to a Train Weight of 8,250 kg. (your licence will show 107 in the Codes box). But, not a bus/coach with more than 8 passenger seats (note I did say bus/coach, minibuses up to 16 passenger seats may be driven but not on a hire or reward basis (Code101) unless you take a separate driving test).

By the way, when you reach 70 years young, you revert to the same categories as someone who passed their test after 1 January 1997, unless you take the required medical and pass it. Otherwise I'm afraid the weight limit is 3,500 kg.

The bottom line is - if you can't do the time, do do the crime - unless you have the correct category of licence don't take the risk - points don't make prizes - they cost you more by way of fines and extra premiums from your insurers.

Just my thoughts, people, but it's one of the things I do for a living and I hope it helps clear a few things up..

Keith


----------



## TonyHunt

Sprokit. Shame you didnt get to cross swords with GT.


----------



## Scotjimland

TonyHunt said:


> Sprokit. Shame you didnt get to cross swords with GT.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: now that would be a good thread !!


----------



## 89539

Hi Sprokit,

Since you're in the know mabye you can do some digging for the few of us who PASSED before 1997, but didn't exchange until after. Is that covered by the definitions or is it grey?

As I said I have no wish to drive anything over 4 tonnes, but I own one that is more than 3.5 and I am driving illegally until I either pay to do a C1 or downrate it to 3500kg.

Pete


----------



## sprokit

> On Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 7:43 pm NorwegianBlue
> 
> "mabye you can do some digging for the few of us who PASSED before 1997, but didn't exchange until after"


Perhaps I can ask you a couple of questions before saying I can or not, just so I can be more or less sure of the answers I give you - I've got no problems helping people (with a query relating to transport law) out with advice - provided you accept that it may only be my opinion (based on previous casework I've dealt with) unless I can back it up with quoted legislation.

First: You obviously passed your driving test before 1 Jan 1997, but, why did you have to exchange your licence - have you been out of the UK for a while?

Second: If you've been out of the UK for a while - how long, which country and, did you change your UK licence for a licence in the country where you were living?

Third: Did your driving licence expire whilst you were outside the UK (either your UK licence or that of the country in which you held an exchange licence)?

If you don't want the whole forum knowing the why's and wherefores, you can always send me a private email - if that's the case, pm me and I'll send you my private email address.

Keith


----------



## eddievanbitz

Hi Sprokit



> it doesn't matter whether it's a car, a van, an HGV (or as they like to term it these days - an LGV), it's a vehicle and there is no differentiation between a 7.5 tonne boxvan or flatback and an RV - they're all vehicles and the weight limits apply.


So, if this is the case, why can't I take my test in my camper? The local DOT tell me that it is a RV and therefore not suitable to take a test in IE a non qualifying vehicle.

Also, why has the CPS chickened out regarding prosecution, falling back on "lack of evidence" and withdrawing at the last minute?

Could it be that the licencing bods and the engineers at the transport department can't quiet see "eye to eye" over the "Construction and use" If the Police and the Ministry and the DVLA all agreed I am sure that this situation would have been very lucrative for the powers that be!

However, with no offence meant, as you put yourself forward as the expert on the inside, can you tell me what test I can take, in an LHD automatic RV with conventional brakes, not air over hydraulic?

I saw this with interest as our local DFT office and commercial test center told me that they would not MOT my last motorhome as it wasn't a HGV and it only needed a Class four MOT and to take it to a normal garage!

So, as I say the DFT don't think I need any special licence, and they would be classified as the "experts" in any litigation so perhaps this explains the complete and utter lack of prosecution or even court attendance given that the CPS would have the Engineers on one side and the clerks (DVLA) on the other giving conflicting advice to the judge.

Throw in the fact that the DFT only want a "car MOT" to make it legal, unlike the far more frequent class 7 MOT for a HGV and it would be another example of tax payers money being thrown away! motorhomes and cars in the same list along with Ambulances & taxis

Scroll down the list to class seven and it clearly states "Goods vehicles" So there we have it! The DFT (Department of Transport in old money) clearly sees a licencing difference between a "goods vehicle" and a motorhome. It doesn't say a motorhome up to..... or weighing less than.....Just a motorhome.

I will for one, having cleared everything with my insurers carry on driving my "motorhome" and when the time come for a MOT I will have my Class Four (car) MOT. Should I get stopped by the police I will happily have my day iin court. Whilst this is no personal slight on you Sprokit, I will happily make fun of an official department that can't get gypsies to MOT or tax there vehicles! or even decide which nationality or gender it is!


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## sprokit

> "Shame you didnt get to cross swords with GT."


Read it all - boy, didn't they go on - glad I didn't get involved - neither correspondent seemed to want to quit - and life is meant to be enjoyed, not spent arguing.

As my old boss used to say - Unless you are absolutely sure of your facts, say nothing. (Actually, what he said was "make sure your arse is fireproof" - but it meant the same thing.)

Keith


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## sprokit

> On Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 8:23 pm eddievanbitz wrote
> 
> "the expert on the inside"


No way do I claim to be an expert (ex meaning 'former' and 'spurt' being a jet of useless liquid :twisted - However I do have a good working knowledge of Transport Law and, if you give me a couple of days to look at the legislation, I'll try to answer your questions - don't go away now :roll:

Keith


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## Sharnor

Hi Keith, I also have a problem along the same lines as Pete.

I passed my UK driving test in N. Ireland in 1966.

I moved to South Africa for quite a few years and had to do their driving test in 1978.

When I returned to the UK, I swapped my South African license for a UK license.

When I queried what I could drive, the DVLA originally said 7500kg plus trailer.

Then they changed their mind and said 3500kg plus trailer.

When I pointed out that both of my driving tests had been passed before 01/07/97, they replied that my UK license had expired while I was overseas and therefore did not count. With regard to my South African license they said that the "exchange agreement" only allowed for "small" vehicles i.e. cars and motorcycles.

Since I had also been told that the regulations refer to when you passed your test, and not when licenses had expired or been exchanged, I asked the DVLA for a copy of the exchange agreement. They said that my request has been forwarded to a "specialist" department.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't write to the DVLA under the Freedom of Information Act, and ask for copies of all regulations relating to the license required to drive a motor home, and all information relating to the classifation of a motor home?


Norman


----------



## eddievanbitz

*apology for tone!*

Hi Sprokit

Just re-read my mail and it could be read as rude to Sprokit  It isn't meant to be, it is just that we would love (Lyn my wife drives the camper as much as I do) to have it clearly defined with no grey areas from all departments involved.

As it stands there are differences of opinion and attitude from different government departments which is daft.

Nobody believe me? Try and book the C1+E (or whatever it is) In your RV with a Car - A - Tow on the back (or a normal car trailer of a boat or whatever) Show them the DVLA "guidelines" and insist to book your test and demand your right to take it in your own vehicle which of course isn't DOT plated, doesn't have a tacograph, doesn't have air brakes for the trailer so no suzi lines, it'll have a 2" towball as opposed to a 2 foot slipper plate..... IN short they will tell you to leg it! What court could ever prosecute you for having the licence that the Department For Transport say you should have, and such Department will refuse you the chance to take the test in the vehicle that the DVLA claim you do need a HGV for!!

The lunatics are running the asylum (except Keith of course  as he seems one of the enlightened ones)


----------



## apache

Weight / Driver Restrictions for the information of persons wishing to drive the Auto-Trail Apache 700SE Motorhome.

Auto-Trail Apache 700SE has an unladen weight of 3200kg
Auto-Trail Apache 700SE is MAM 3850kg
The payload of the Auto-Trail Apache 700SE is 650kg

The categories on a driving licence stipulate the type and weight of the vehicle that you are qualified to drive (subject to health restrictions).

If you passed your driving test before 1 January 1997, Category B (car licence) allows you to drive stipulated vehicles including Motorhomes up to MAM 7500kg.
(MAM is Maximum Authorised Mass)

If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997, Category B (car licence) allows you to drive stipulated vehicles including Motorhomes up to MAM 3500kg.

For the Auto-Trail Apache 700SE, the weight of the vehicle including its payload must be kept below 3500kg. This allows for a payload of 300kg. This payload weight will include all passengers travelling in the vehicle and all additional equipment, clothing etc. If weight/driving licence is an issue, all/some unnecessary items can be removed prior to hire.

For detailed information regarding Vehicle Category Descriptions visit:
http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/vehicle_cat_desc.htm#Medium Sized Vehicles

From the DVLA website:

"If you passed your driving test before 1 January 1997 and have the vehicle category C1 on your licence you can drive a vehicle of a weight between 3500kg to 7500kg MAM with a small trailer weighing up to 750kg.
If you have the vehicle category C1+E you can drive a vehicle of a weight between 3500kg to 7500kg MAM with a trailer weighing up to 750kg or a combined weight, vehicle and trailer, of up to 8250kg MAM.
If you passed your driving test on or after the 1 January 1997 you are limited to driving vehicles up to 3500kg MAM, having not more than 8 passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg"


----------



## sallytrafic

Several people have brought up that you can't do the test for a large vehicle in a motor home because it doesn't have a tacho etc if this was proof that a motorhome must be a different category.

Think about it outside the box for a minute. There are plenty of other examples in life where the examinations etc to qualify you for doing Z are necessary even if you only want to do X or Y.

A masters certificate if you only want to be an Solent ferry driver.

A full offshore safety at sea course with first aid, fire, helicopter dunking drill and sea survival if you just want to do five trips a year to a lighthouse.

If they subdivided the driving test classifications down further so that every type of vehicle had its own test where would that get us? How far would you have to go to ensure all vehicles were covered. I would imagine that there must be plenty of drivers of large vehicles that have to learn up on stuff to take the present test because the vehicle they habitually drive doesn't have some tested feature.

Regards Frank


----------



## geraldandannie

sallytrafic said:


> If they subdivided the driving test classifications down further so that every type of vehicle had its own test where would that get us?


Hi, Frank

Slightly off-topic, I was thinking today (as a person driving a VERY LARGE 4X4 nearly wiped me off my bike because they didn't realise how big their car was) maybe they should test everyone in THE car they want to drive. You buy a new car? You take a new test, before you can tax and insure it. It would only be a short competancy test, subject to you having passed the main driving test previously. I'd feel safer on two wheels, and there'd be no argument about what you could and couldn't drive. Your pass certificate (in the form of a round disc, similar to a tax disc) goes in the window.

I know there'd be a squillion more tests. Open more test centres, employ more examiners, charge £20 for the test, and away you go.

Maybe a bit radical.

Gerald


----------



## apache

I'v got something that might interest you/

Weight / Driver Restrictions for the information of persons wishing to drive the Auto-Trail Apache 700SE Motorhome.

Auto-Trail Apache 700SE has an unladen weight of 3200kg
Auto-Trail Apache 700SE is MAM 3850kg
The payload of the Auto-Trail Apache 700SE is 650kg

The categories on a driving licence stipulate the type and weight of the vehicle that you are qualified to drive (subject to health restrictions).

If you passed your driving test before 1 January 1997, Category B (car licence) allows you to drive stipulated vehicles including Motorhomes up to MAM 7500kg.
(MAM is Maximum Authorised Mass)

If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997, Category B (car licence) allows you to drive stipulated vehicles including Motorhomes up to MAM 3500kg.

For the Auto-Trail Apache 700SE, the weight of the vehicle including its payload must be kept below 3500kg. This allows for a payload of 300kg. This payload weight will include all passengers travelling in the vehicle and all additional equipment, clothing etc. If weight/driving licence is an issue, all/some unnecessary items can be removed prior to hire.

For detailed information regarding Vehicle Category Descriptions visit:
http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/vehicle_cat_desc.htm#Medium Sized Vehicles

From the DVLA website:

"If you passed your driving test before 1 January 1997 and have the vehicle category C1 on your licence you can drive a vehicle of a weight between 3500kg to 7500kg MAM with a small trailer weighing up to 750kg.
If you have the vehicle category C1+E you can drive a vehicle of a weight between 3500kg to 7500kg MAM with a trailer weighing up to 750kg or a combined weight, vehicle and trailer, of up to 8250kg MAM.
If you passed your driving test on or after the 1 January 1997 you are limited to driving vehicles up to 3500kg MAM, having not more than 8 passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg"


----------



## 89348

Mr Sprokit,
Glad you didn't take my comment to heart,and nice to see you know a few of the people I mentioned.
:wink: 
Anyway, Unfortunately, I think that even with the knowledge, that you know what you are talking about, many people on the forum will still argue the toss with you, It is far easier for them to bury their head in the sand and continue with misguided opinions, than it is to accept that people like you , many others and indeed myself are posting facts on here.
Not to ridicule people or to get one over them, and in fact not even to be right. But just to ensure that nobody falls foul of the law.

There seems to be an obsession with goods vehicles , and comparing them to motorhomes , why ? And all this talk about taking a C1+E just  to drive their motorhome , correct me if i'm wrong , but dont you now have to take a C1 test first ? And this will cover any weight (up to set limits) if the vehicle is rigid.


Please people , accept that times have changed , the DVLA , VOSA and the DfT, dont publish opinions or views on their websites or leaflets, they provide information regarding rules , the law and regulations. There are dozens of changes to these regulations , which , we as motorists only get to hear about when we get nicked for something we didn't know was wrong.

How many people realise that 99.9% of the stretch limos driving around at weekends are breaking the law simply because they are carrying more than 8 fare paying passengers, and because of this , the driver should hold the relevant PSV licence and the vehicle should be registered as a psv, but it's a car you say,not a bus. The simple point is that because of 1 or 2 simple criteria , the licencing requirements have changed. And that is exactly what happens to your motorhome (vehicle) when it reaches the magic weight of 7500kgs.


----------



## des

hi frank / sallytraffic. good fun this! reason you can't take an lgv test in a motorhome: it does not meet the specified requirements for vehicles for either c1 or c tests. as i was reminded by one of the examiners when i took my tests, you are being tested to drive an lgv, not just a motorhome. and even though i have not intention of driving an lgv, i am now entitled to do so. so it does make sense that vehicles used on test are reasonably representative of the class. i find it somewhat ironic, however, that i am entitled to drive an artic, up to 44 tons but have never even been in the cab of one (i took my c + e with drawbar & trailer - more like rv than artic, and easier to keep off the kerbs) regards to all participating in this debate, which will not be resolved until someone gets prosecuted and appeals are heard. des.


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## sprokit

> that i am entitled to drive an artic, up to 44 tons but have never even been in the cab of one (i took my c + e with drawbar & trailer/quote]
> 
> Just a quickie
> 
> Des
> Because you took a driving test in a draw-bar combination and your licence shows C+E doesn't necessarily mean you can drive an articulated vehicle - check the Code box on your licence - if it shows a Code 102 it means you have a C+E restricted to draw-bar/drag combinations only (i.e. a rigid vehicle plus trailer - either draw-bar or drag (if you don't know the difference, a drag trailer has wheels at each corner and a steerable turntable at the front, a draw-bar usually has an 'A' frame hitch the same as a caravan)).
> 
> Keith


----------



## des

Hi Keith. Had me worried there for a minute. Have checked. Confirms I was right. Suspect the restriction goes back to the time of class 1/2/3, and class 3(i think) entitled you to drive drawbar/trailer up to 11 tons combo? not sure, but anyway, thanks for the thought. des


----------



## 94055

Just a thought

At what weight does a Motorhome change to an Rv or does something else dictate this?
What is the maximum speed of an Rv is it 60mph or 70mph? 
As a van or call it what you like up to 7.5 ton can do 70mph what is max for Motorhome of say 8ton?


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## des

answer re speeed limits: it depends on which side of this debate you take. if an rv/mh (same thing, one us, other eur) is an lgv, then limited to 40 single carriagway, 50 dual, 60 m/way. otherwise (as per attempted prosecution) same as a car. take your pick!


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## sprokit

Okay, I said I'd try to answer eddievanbitz' questions - I've done a bit of checking and will deal with the questions in the order they are in the email.



> "So, if this is the case, why can't I take my test in my camper?"


Your RV obviously does not meet the minimum test vehicle requirements - http://tinyurl.com/fr4zr - for minimum requirements, and please note they changed Oct 2003.



> "Also, why has the CPS chickened out regarding prosecution"


What prosecution are you alluding to? (I have nothing to do with the CPS, we do our own prosecutions.) Yes I'm well aware of the stories that unless the CPS can guarantee winning a case which has had a 'Not Guilty' plea entered, there is a good chance it will get dropped pleading 'lack of evidence', but it could also be because someone has screwed up and some part of the evidence is classed as ineligible, or even that it's just not in the public interest to proceed with the case.



> "Could it be that the licensing bods and the engineers at the transport department can't quiet see "eye to eye" over the "Construction and use"


In my job as an 'enforcement' officer on the legal side of the job, I work quite closely with engineers, in fact I'm also a mechanic (a fitter from the days before they became 'fitters of new parts'). We generally agree on whether something is in order or not. Can't speak for DVLA or the Police. C & U (or to give it the correct title 'The Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986) is not the be-all and end-all of the legislation used (don't forget the Transport Act, the Road Traffic Act, to mention just two of the more important ones, I have six volumes at least 4 inches thick of legislation to which I have to work), C & U covers the various aspects of legislation in respect to the requirements relating to, among others, roadworthiness/dimensions of vehicles used on a public road in the UK.



> "what test I can take, in an LHD automatic RV with conventional brakes, not air over hydraulic?"


As I said right at the start it looks as if your RV does not meet the minimum test vehicle requirements.



> "our local DFT office and commercial test center told me that they would not MOT my last motorhome as it wasn't a HGV and it only needed a Class four MOT and to take it to a normal garage!"


By DFT office and commercial test centre, I take it you mean your local VOSA Testing Station - how big is your RV - if it's the same size as a UK type coach, then they would not refuse you as VOSA have the only testing stations able to test that size of vehicle. However, if your vehicle is of the 'smaller' RV type, similar to Hymers/Dethleffs etc then there are a lot of Class IV testing stations with either a pit or a large hydraulic lift (usually a six post lift) which are capable of testing your vehicle. If you are absolutely set on having your vehicle tested by VOSA - (and I think a Mini Winnie is about 29 feet long?) then you should have a word with the Station Manager and ask why they won't test it. Due to the length of your vehicle, if there is nowhere local which can handle that size of vehicle, they should not be able to refuse. But be nice when you're talking to them, don't demand, ask nicely.



> "as I say the DFT don't think I need any special licence, and they would be classified as the "experts" in any litigation"


Provided your vehicle is below 7.5 tonnes and you passed your driving test before 1 Jan 1997, then, no, you don't need a special licence.

Final point, it's not a goods vehicle, it's a motor caravan (or, as it's of American origin and if we're being pedantic a Recreational Vehicle), a Class IV test is a car test, the same items are checked for compliance on a motor caravan as on a car - it's just bigger, and, most motor caravans in the UK are built on a light commercial vehicle chassis of 3,500 kg GVW, well within the capabilities of most MOT testing stations.

Hope this has been of some help

Keith


----------



## 98452

what about if you have a D1 also D1 + E ???


----------



## eddievanbitz

Hi Sprokit

Thanks for the amount of work that you have done on this for all of us. You have to be fair though and agree that the link that you are quoting is liberally laced with "medium goods vehicle" large goods vehicles" lorry" "closed box cargo compartment" plus many more references to commercial goods vehicles used for hire and reward.

Also, miminum requirements a medium sized lorry! all vehicles must be presented unladend, so if I take all of the furniture (persumably "goods" out of my van I no longer weigh too much! Result!

The prosecution that was dropped was an employee of Travelworld in Telford who have been importing yanks for some thirty years. An employee was stopped in the outside lank in a 15 odd ton yank towing a car. Travelworld still dine out on it I remember it and waiting for the outcome. The exact dates an whatnot are in the George Telford link (where is he when you need him!) George, bless him tracked down all of the information and posted it in that link. Given the contradictions that are rife through all of this you can understand someone not wanting to stand before a court and try to explain all of the ambiguity!

"So, is it a car"
" No sir"
"Is it a lorry?"
"No Sir"
"does it have to have a MOT"
" Yes sir, a car MOT"
"can you carry goods in it?
" No sir, it has a bed and a toilet and a shower"
"So the accused, didn't take the appropriate test?"
"Yes sir" Felling brighter
"Did he try"
"Yes sir"
"what happened?
" The DFT turned him away as it isn't a lorry, but they offered to do a car MOT on it for him"
"NEXT"

I am not suggesting that there should be a test for each type of vehicle, just that the DOT do not see that a motorhome is the same as a goods vehicle, they never have and hopefully never will. If They did they would insist on a Class 7 MOT and they would want driver hours logged and check via a tacograph. 

If I am wrong I will be the first to apologize and I will rush out and book my test, however, in the absence of anything other than a recent re awakening and re-interpretation of the law by the DVLA (Blaming Europe!)(The spanish still kill bulls, Europe hasn't stopped them) I have seen nothing from the DOT or the Courts to suggest that I am wrong. Travelworld have been importing RV's for 30 years, George Dudley started importing Winnebago's into the UK some 40 years ago how come there has never been a single prosecution for driving a large motorhome (call it RV if you like) with a car licence?

The erosion of peoples liberties and freedoms is something that I think we should all question, whether it is the right to drive our motorhomes, park on common ground have a street party or carnival without a health and safety missive and crippling public liability insurance and the threat of closure by modern day safety nazi's. 

The fear of arguing or standing out and questioning things scares me that we are closer to an Orwellian society than I dare think

Most people in this country are sick and tired of being watched checked questioned, fleeced and browbeaten. If we want to fight back we need to say "this is stupid" this is wrong" No I don't accept it because you say so" (Not you Keith) Ask questions, challenge ambiguity say no thank you.

In short, I believe that common sense dictates that you should not be able to pass a test and drive something huge, yet the idiots in Westminster allow a 17 year old pass his test and, if he has enough money can by a 180 MPH car! Stupid in the extreme. 

If I am forced to take a test to drive my RV, how difficult wold it be to have a simple competence test? where a qualified examiner sits with you and drives around for 30/40 minutes. If the examiner feels comfortable with you, you pass, to drive a private motorhome if you scare the examiner, you fail and have to take it again. I would pay for that happily because it would be relevant to what I drive.

I am off to Shepton Mallet now 

Bye


----------



## 98452

eddievanbitz said:


> Hi Sprokit
> 
> Thanks for the amount of work that you have done on this for all of us. You have to be fair though and agree that the link that you are quoting is liberally laced with "medium goods vehicle" large goods vehicles" lorry" "closed box cargo compartment" plus many more references to commercial goods vehicles used for hire and reward.
> 
> Also, miminum requirements a medium sized lorry! all vehicles must be presented unladend, so if I take all of the furniture (persumably "goods" out of my van I no longer weigh too much! Result!
> 
> The prosecution that was dropped was an employee of Travelworld in Telford who have been importing yanks for some thirty years. An employee was stopped in the outside lank in a 15 odd ton yank towing a car. Travelworld still dine out on it I remember it and waiting for the outcome. The exact dates an whatnot are in the George Telford link (where is he when you need him!) George, bless him tracked down all of the information and posted it in that link. Given the contradictions that are rife through all of this you can understand someone not wanting to stand before a court and try to explain all of the ambiguity!
> 
> "So, is it a car"
> " No sir"
> "Is it a lorry?"
> "No Sir"
> "does it have to have a MOT"
> " Yes sir, a car MOT"
> "can you carry goods in it?
> " No sir, it has a bed and a toilet and a shower"
> "So the accused, didn't take the appropriate test?"
> "Yes sir" Felling brighter
> "Did he try"
> "Yes sir"
> "what happened?
> " The DFT turned him away as it isn't a lorry, but they offered to do a car MOT on it for him"
> "NEXT"
> 
> I am not suggesting that there should be a test for each type of vehicle, just that the DOT do not see that a motorhome is the same as a goods vehicle, they never have and hopefully never will. If They did they would insist on a Class 7 MOT and they would want driver hours logged and check via a tacograph.
> 
> If I am wrong I will be the first to apologize and I will rush out and book my test, however, in the absence of anything other than a recent re awakening and re-interpretation of the law by the DVLA (Blaming Europe!)(The spanish still kill bulls, Europe hasn't stopped them) I have seen nothing from the DOT or the Courts to suggest that I am wrong. Travelworld have been importing RV's for 30 years, George Dudley started importing Winnebago's into the UK some 40 years ago how come there has never been a single prosecution for driving a large motorhome (call it RV if you like) with a car licence?
> 
> The erosion of peoples liberties and freedoms is something that I think we should all question, whether it is the right to drive our motorhomes, park on common ground have a street party or carnival without a health and safety missive and crippling public liability insurance and the threat of closure by modern day safety nazi's.
> 
> The fear of arguing or standing out and questioning things scares me that we are closer to an Orwellian society than I dare think
> 
> Most people in this country are sick and tired of being watched checked questioned, fleeced and browbeaten. If we want to fight back we need to say "this is stupid" this is wrong" No I don't accept it because you say so" (Not you Keith) Ask questions, challenge ambiguity say no thank you.
> 
> In short, I believe that common sense dictates that you should not be able to pass a test and drive something huge, yet the idiots in Westminster allow a 17 year old pass his test and, if he has enough money can by a 180 MPH car! Stupid in the extreme.
> 
> If I am forced to take a test to drive my RV, how difficult wold it be to have a simple competence test? where a qualified examiner sits with you and drives around for 30/40 minutes. If the examiner feels comfortable with you, you pass, to drive a private motorhome if you scare the examiner, you fail and have to take it again. I would pay for that happily because it would be relevant to what I drive.
> 
> I am off to Shepton Mallet now
> 
> Bye


Great posting and how true :wink: :wink:


----------



## desertsong

Hi Folks,

Like the rest of you, I've been following this thread with interest. Luckily, I don't have the headache regarding the size of my van or type of licence. Nevertheless, I value the contributions by many of you and I think Keith's input is particularly worthwhile as some insight from the other side of the fence. 

Mind you, one thing Keith says concerns me a littlle and I quote, "C & U (or to give it the correct title ‘The Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986) is not the be-all and end-all of the legislation used (don’t forget the Transport Act, the Road Traffic Act, to mention just two of the more important ones, I have six volumes at least 4 inches thick of legislation to which I have to work), C & U covers the various aspects of legislation in respect to the requirements relating to, among others, roadworthiness/dimensions of vehicles used on a public road in the UK."

Now that is very interesting! However, your average motorists does not have these tomes, nor the legal training and back up necessary to defend himself against the use of them. What are we to do, buy copies and drive around with them in case we get stopped? "Sorry, officer, won't be a minute, just saw it here the other day on page 354, chapter 17. Oh! Sorry. Wrong book. Can I phone a friend?" 

In fact, he/she probably does not even know of their existence. I bet many have never even heard of the VOSA until they have a reason to know, other than seeing it on their MOT.

We all know that ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law, but surely there must be a sense of fairness in order for any law to be successful. It could be said that it you can't enforce a law then it's a waste of time having it, but here is a law that has "enforcement officers" backed by police and anything else they require. Isn't it a pity that the government couldn't apply the same tenacity, dilligence and care for other aspects of our lives, like say, law and order, NHS, people not ending up with malnutrition or MRSA in our hospitals. How about enforcement officers to make sure the patients get fed? Hmm.

Anyway, as I said Keith, kidding aside, I do value your input immensely in this as the manufacturers and dealers are not a lot of help. And as has been said before, too many opinions not enough facts.

Willie


----------



## geraldandannie

As Willie said, I don't think the content of the thread will be a concern to me, but it has certainly been of interest. A lot of people have put a lot of work into the discussion, and fascinating it has been. I think we can see why the law is an ass, and lawyers are employed to argue the law to prove their cases. If law really was watertight, there would be no need for lawyers. You go to court, the Man shows you the section in the book which shows you did wrong, and you take your punishment.

For the vast majority of us, we have no need to concern ourselves with the contents of these tomes. Our vehicle manufacturers have done that for us - or at least, we hope they have. Smaller manufacturers and homebuilds may be an exception.

Still a good read, though.

Gerald


----------



## 88927

> "our local DFT office and commercial test center told me that they would not MOT my last motorhome as it wasn't a HGV and it only needed a Class four MOT and to take it to a normal garage!"


By DFT office and commercial test centre, I take it you mean your local VOSA Testing Station - how big is your RV - if it's the same size as a UK type coach, then they would not refuse you as VOSA have the only testing stations able to test that size of vehicle. However, if your vehicle is of the 'smaller' RV type, similar to Hymers/Dethleffs etc then there are a lot of Class IV testing stations with either a pit or a large hydraulic lift (usually a six post lift) which are capable of testing your vehicle. If you are absolutely set on having your vehicle tested by VOSA - (and I think a Mini Winnie is about 29 feet long?) then you should have a word with the Station Manager and ask why they won't test it. Due to the length of your vehicle, if there is nowhere local which can handle that size of vehicle, they should not be able to refuse. But be nice when you're talking to them, don't demand, ask nicely.

Keith[/quote]

Hi Keith
I am not trying to be pedantic but..... I had our 30 foot RV MOT'd recently and it was carried out by a company called SFS in Northampton http://www.sfs.co.uk/workshop.html
This is a private company and not VOSA, so I just wanted to point out that there are companies out there who will MOT a 7 ton RV to class IV, albeit few and far between, maybe there is a branch near to you as SFS is a somewhat national company, or maybe there are other company's that do the same thing???

Keith


----------



## Rapide561

*Weight/licence*

Hi

I had the reply from the local police this morning by telephone. They said a class C licence is required for an RV 7500 kgs and there were also limitations regarding the RV's max speed on a motorway etc.

Rapide561


----------



## sprokit

Hi guys

Firstly - thanks for your words of encouragement - it's nice to know that even though we often disagree, people do read what you're trying to get across. As someone put it "ignorance is no excuse".

Couple of points from the latest mails - 
RR asked "what about if you have a D1 also D1 + E ???"

A D1 entitles you to drive a minibus with up to 16 passengers. If you had entitlement to drive cars prior to 1 January 1997 you can drive a minibus provided you are 21 or over and the minibus has a maximum of 17 seats including the driver's seat and is not being used for hire or reward.

So check your licence, if it has a Code 101 in the Codes box - you cannot drive the vehicle on a hire or reward basis, a separate test must be taken for this entitlement and you must have a medical to hold this licence (i.e hire/reward).

Subcategory D1 vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM. There is no upper weight limit for subcategory D1 vehicles.

For the full spiel on this visit - http://tinyurl.com/fdjby

Rapide561 wrote "a class C licence is required for an RV 7500 kgs and there were also limitations regarding the RV's max speed on a motorway etc."

A category C1 licence covers vehicles up to and including 7500 kg. At the present time the national speed limit for 7500 kg vehicles is:
70 mph on a motorway
60 mph on a dual carriageway (non-motorway)
50 mph on single carriageway roads
30 mph in a built-up area (with street lights and speed limit signs)

My information came from http://tinyurl.com/mropp - so I don't know where they got their information from, obviously if the vehicle is over 7500 kg then lower limits will apply.

Hope this is of some assistance.

Keith


----------



## 94055

Hi from a previous part of this thread could someone answer



stevercar said:


> Plus other Category
> 
> But no mention of
> 
> L & N What are they? Anyone help
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Steve


What are the L & N entitlements?

Thanks

Steve


----------



## sprokit

Steve asked "What are the L & N entitlements?"

Had no problem with the L, but noticed I also had an N - anyway checked it out and they are:
L = Electric Vehicle.
N = Vehicles used for very short distances on public roads.
Whatever that means!!

Keith


----------



## 94055

Sorry for causing delays officer I am only allowed to drive this Rv for short periods :lol: :lol: 

Thanks Keith

May be a tractor or lawn mower etc


----------



## sprokit

Norman wrote "I passed my UK driving test in N. Ireland in 1966. > I moved to South Africa for quite a few years and had to do their driving test in 1978. > When I returned to the UK, I swapped my South African license for a UK license."

Hi Norman

I asked a colleague who is an HGV driving test examiner with the Driving Standards Agency about your query - he told me, and he believes this came with the 1997 harmonisation of EU driving licences (don't you just love them), the only licences that can be exchanged "like for like" are licences issued within the EU - if your UK licence expired whilst you were living in a country other than an EU country, you are treated as a new driver when you apply to "exchange" your licence and will only receive the minimum entitlement i.e. authorisation to drive a vehicle up to 3500 kg.

==============================================

Pete wrote "for the few of us who PASSED before 1997, but didn't exchange until after."

Hi Pete

Does this sound familiar to you - and does it also cover your case?
I was also informed that someone who passed their driving test before Jan 1997 but didn't submit their pass certificate to DVLA until after 1 Jan '97 only received the 3500 kg entitlement as well.

Sorry guys - please don't shoot the messenger.

Keith


----------



## 88927

Interesting point about the speed limits... I have just looked here http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm and find that whilst there is no suitable definition of a motorhome or RV, it would seem that as our vehicles are going to be over 2 tons, then we are all regulated to a lower speed than a car on single and dual carriageway roads....
You learn something every day eh??? Great peice of info I think...

Keith


----------



## geraldandannie

Tricky point there, Keith. It says "... (including car-derived vans up to 2 tonnes) ..". Note the parentheses. That's a specific case. I don't drive a car-derived van. I drive a van-derived motorhome.

I don't tow, I don't drive a goods vehicle nor a bus/coach. So it's 30/60/70/70 for me.

I think. :? 

Thanks for the link, Keith. 

Gerald


----------



## 88927

Hi Gerald
That was my thinking until I read the above info, now I am convinced that because my RV weighs more that 2 tons (by a long way :lol: :lol: ), whatever we feel it is called, then I am limited to 30,50,60,&70 respectively..... I cannot see that with such an ambiguous set of headings you could possibly get out of it if your vehicle weighs over 2 tons, which it clearly does.......
So with that in mind I guess my fuel consumption will increase anyway :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Keith


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi, Keith

I think that the brackets mean the 2 tonnes applies ONLY to car-derived vans. The Bentley GT DIamond weighs over 2.5 tonnes. What's that restricted to?

Ambiguity in the regulations. Who'd a' thought it?

Gerald


----------



## sallytrafic

There is no ambiguity in the regulations that I can see, its just the highwaycode is not a complete set of rules. This subject has come up again and again I wish there was an FAQ section here.

Go here for table

Everybody should know their speed limits but I came across a guy only a day or so ago who thought the speed limit for a car on a single carriageway was 50mph (well it was for a time when Harold Wilson was PM) I couldn't persuade him otherwise.

Frank

I have the table to attach but for some reason this morning I can't get the upload to work .jpg 274kB should be ok


----------



## DABurleigh

Yes, I've enjoyed this thread.

I also passed it to George, but have yet to hear his reaction.

Similarly, I have yet to hear any reply from the DoT or DVLA beyond an automated "endeavour to reply withing 3 working days".

I will sit on my humble pie pending these contributions 

Dvae


----------



## geraldandannie

sallytrafic said:


> Go here for table


Thanks for that, Frank. Seems there's another weight limit we should be aware of - our MH _unladen_, which limits our dual carriageway speed to 60 instead of 70 if we're over 3050kg :roll:

Must check my plate.

Gerald


----------



## DABurleigh

What's the legal definition of unladen for a motorcaravan? :roll: 

Oh, and sprokit, in gauging the size of this humble pie, I am having trouble tracking down the legal status of grandfather rights. Was the pre-97 situation on vehicle classes and licence (and the relationship or not in law then between motorhomes and goods vehicles) mapped explicitly, in law, to the post-97 licence/ vehicle weight situation, which does, in that SI, seem admirably clear?

Dave


----------



## sallytrafic

DABurleigh said:


> What's the legal definition of unladen for a motorcaravan? :roll:
> 
> Dave


I've asked the D&C police

Frank


----------



## 88927

I too wondered about this new weight Gerald.... I know about the 3500Kgs weight limit but this one is new to me mate...
Sorry Frank but you appear to have pointed out another ambiguity mate, and I do know that the Highway Code is not the complete set of rules but it is the one publication that the vast majority of motorists use to get their advice from (and short of us all becoming lawyers) it is the one that is readily available and mostly in plain text, which is why I offered it as a base line. By the way Frank, this is not having a pop at you, but merely pointing out all the different info available to us without any seemingly cohesive core.

Thanks for the link to that table, I am now left wondering whether I can drive at 50 MPH or 60 MPH or 70 MPH on a dual carriageway and if stopped, which publicly available indicator of the interpretation of the relevant speed limit do I quote??

Keith


----------



## sprokit

Hi guys

Will this ever die - it seems you guys are very good at finding ambiguities in the wording of the various sources of information - you could get well paid jobs as lawyers - it's their job to find just such ambiguities to get their clients off whatever charge has been made.

Anyway, a couple of points from recent mails:

Gerald wrote


> It says "... (including car-derived vans up to 2 tonnes) ..". Note the parentheses. That's a specific case.


Quite correct, a car derived van is a van based on a car design, for example the old Ford Escort estate car or the Vauxhall Astra (van version Astramax) with no windows.

A motor home is based on a light commercial vehicle chassis, not a van (except of course the RV's, which are a tad larger and usually based on a large commercial vehicle/bus chassis), so the "car-derived van" doesn't enter the equation (unless of course you class a Romahome Duo as a car-derived van??).

Dave wrote


> Oh, and sprokit, in gauging the size of this humble pie, I am having trouble tracking down the legal status of grandfather rights. Was the pre-97 situation on vehicle classes and licence (and the relationship or not in law then between motorhomes and goods vehicles) mapped explicitly, in law, to the post-97 licence/ vehicle weight situation, which does, in that SI, seem admirably clear?


I've put the relevant part of the Regulations below - the important part is the phrase "at a time before 1st January 1997" - which confers "grandfather rights to people who previously held a licence for the relevant category.

Section 5 of The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1996 
(2) A licence authorising the driving of motor vehicles of a class included in any category or sub-category mentioned in Part 2 of Schedule 2 may not be granted to a person unless, at a time before 1st January 1997-
(a) in the case of an application for a full licence-
(i) he held a full licence authorising the driving of vehicles of a class included in that category, or
(ii) he passed a test which at the time it was passed authorised the driving of motor vehicles of that class or a Northern Ireland test corresponding to such a test;

(b) in the case of an application for a provisional licence, he held a provisional licence authorising the driving of vehicles of a class included in that category.

As I'm not able to look at the various books until Monday, it will take a while to dig out the relevant bits which cover the pre-97 situation on vehicle classes/weights and driving licence to the post-97 driving licence/vehicle weight situation.

Will leave it for today as I'm off to do something really useful - like go to a rugby match.

Keith S
(as there is more than one)


----------



## DABurleigh

Keith,

Many thanks so far.

As to inconsistencies in law, my theory is that lawyers, who are good at checking for consistency (I must confess I did consider doing a law degree but it seemed so much boring reading ....) deliberately put inconsistent things in proposed legislation to keep their ilk in business.

It would be a lot easier for we common folk if the law was based on common sense. I wonder who was the boy wonder lawyer who recommended maximum legal speeds be based on UNladen weights. I reckon he went far in the profession.

Dave
PS Now got my reply from the DVLA. Looks like anything definitive is down to you, mate, because despite being as pithy as I could regarding asking expressly for references to the law, and the mapping of grandfather rights pre-to-post-97, neither was addressed. All I got was a regurgitation of:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/Motoring/fs/en
and a disclaimer that:
"The information I have given is not intended as a statement of the law. I am afraid that DVLA cannot give legal advice and that interpretation of the law is a matter for the courts."

Perhaps DVLA is staffed by budding politicians.


----------



## Rapide561

*RV*

Hi

Further to my previous post on the subject, West Yorkshire Police advise that, if a driver was stopped whilst driving an RV weighing over 7500 kg, they could issue a £60 fine, put three points on the driver licence and impound the vehicle.

Rapide561


----------



## Scotjimland

*Re: RV*



 Rapide561 said:


> West Yorkshire Police advise that, if a driver was stopped whilst driving an RV weighing over 7500 kg, they could issue a £60 fine, put three points on the driver licence and impound the vehicle.


Hi Russell,

'Advise and could' .. yes , what else can 'they' advise when they themselves don't understand the regulations. The police don't issue on the spot fines or impound, that is the function of the court if the prosecution is successful, we are not a Police State... yet.

To date no one has been successfully prosecuted, the only known case was dropped due to 'lack of evidence' another way of saying they could not find the regulation to prosecute.


----------



## Rapide561

*HGV/RV*

Afternoon Jim

That's the problem with the whole situation. The whole licencing laws are a load of XXXX.

Until there are clear definitions of vehicles, there will never be a real answer.

In the meantime, I resent the fact that my log book classes Avalon as a goods vehicle! In law then, I can park in the lorry areas at services!

LOL

Rapide561


----------



## 89348

*Re: RV*



ScotJimland said:


> Rapide561 said:
> 
> 
> 
> West Yorkshire Police advise that, if a driver was stopped whilst driving an RV weighing over 7500 kg, they could issue a £60 fine, put three points on the driver licence and impound the vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Russell,
> 
> 'Advise and could' .. yes , what else can 'they' advise when they themselves don't understand the regulations. The police don't issue on the spot fines or impound, that is the function of the court if the prosecution is successful, we are not a Police State... yet.
> 
> To date no one has been successfully prosecuted, the only known case was dropped due to 'lack of evidence' another way of saying they could not find the regulation to prosecute.
Click to expand...

Jim, it is obvious that no matter what anybody takes the time to find out and post on here, that you will pick holes in it, and usually, purely on the wording, now maybe this is purely for your own enjoyment, i dont know and to be honest , it's starting to get boring.
You keep quoting this 5 year old case that the the cps "dropped", the facts are that that was 5 years ago, this is today. you want to think yourself lucky that that case never had a conclusion, because that would have then set a precedent for all further prosecutions.

As for your statement about not living in a police state, have you been in a coma for the last few years, the police issue FPNs at the roadside, they have the power to impound a vehicle that is being used to commit a crime.
"on the spot fines" is a generalization, so why be pedantic about its use ?

You seem so sure that you are in the right, that maybe you should take up somebody's suggestion about a test case, so how about this, take your overweight RV down a busy motorway at 70mph in the outside lane, and stay there until stopped by the police, we can then use the outcome of your case to advise others, I'm confident that many on here (including myself) will chip in and pay any fine, but dont forget it goes deeper than a fine, you've got the points on your licence and increased insurance premiums, but they will be your responsibility. but hey, we were only trying to ensure nobody fell foul of the law, not to prove anybody wrong all the time, which unfortunately seems to be your intentions.


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## sprokit

Hi again folks

Dave wrote


> It would be a lot easier for we common folk if the law was based on common sense.


 Although I tend to agree with you common sense doesn't enter into it - I won't tell you the number of occassions I've heard a defendant say "but that doesn't make sense" - they've still been found guilty according to the law.



> and a disclaimer that:
> "The information I have given is not intended as a statement of the law. I am afraid that DVLA cannot give legal advice and that interpretation of the law is a matter for the courts."


That's a standard disclaimer, mainly due to the unscrupulous few who always claim "But I was told by so and so that....." when prosecuted for an offence which they, in all probability, had already been warned about.



> I am having trouble tracking down the legal status of grandfather rights. Was the pre-97 situation on vehicle classes and licence (and the relationship or not in law then between motorhomes and goods vehicles) mapped explicitly, in law, to the post-97 licence/ vehicle weight situation, which does, in that SI, seem admirably clear?


The SI is actually the Driver Licensing Regs in full - have a lookat - 
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19962824_en_1.htm
The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1996 - PART VII - SUPPLEMENTARY Effect of change in classification of vehicles for licensing purposes
70.-(1) In a licence (whether full or provisional) granted before 1st January 1997, a reference to motor vehicles in an old category shall be construed as a reference to motor vehicles in the new category……………

Does this help clear things up.

I said I'd have a look at the regs to see if I could find anything re the correlation between the old licensing categories and the new - I've attached a document laying them out side by side - pre 1997 on the left.

I haven't yet found a definition for a motor home or motor caravan, my excuse being I was out of the office most of the day - I'll have another look when I have a bit of time.

Keith S


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## sprokit

[/quote]I've attached a document laying them out side by side - pre 1997 on the left.


> Well I thought I had - obviously this is not as easy to do as i thought - so tell me - how do you attach a Word doc to an email on this forum??
> 
> Keith S


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## geraldandannie

sprokit said:


> I haven't yet found a definition for a motor home or motor caravan, my excuse being I was out of the office most of the day - I'll have another look when I have a bit of time.
> Keith S


Hiya, Keith

You're doing absolutely stirling work here. What a bonus to have someone like you with THE BIG BOOKS to hand, and who knows his way around them.

Still reading ...

Gerald


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## geraldandannie

You may have run into the maximum Word doc size limit of 500k, Keith :roll: 

Gerald


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## geraldandannie

You might be able to put it into the "downloads" section, on the front (main) page, about half way down on the left.

Gerald


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## sprokit

> Gerald wrote:
> You may have run into the maximum Word doc size limit of 500k


Sure did, looked at the file - 59.8Mb - oops - now has the pictures trimmed off and much, much reduced - so we'll have another go.

Hope this is of some use to those of you who aren't aware of the licensing categories.

Keith S


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## 94055

Hi Keith
Excellent mate thanks
Seems we have no Electric vehicles or invalid carriages no more???

Strange? Still see milk floats and smaller invalid carriages??

Steve


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## sprokit

> I haven't yet found a definition for a motor home or motor caravan


Found a reference to work to:

Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986
Reg (2)In these Regulations, unless the context otherwise requires, the expressions specified in column 1 of the Table have the meaning, or are to be interpreted in accordance with the provisions, specified for them in column 2 of theTable.
Column 1 (Expression)
motor caravan
Column 2 (Meaning)
a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains as permanently installed equipment, the facilitieswhich are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users.

This in turn leads to the meaning of "motor vehicle" for which Column 2 shows:
a mechanically propelled vehicle intended or adapted for use on roads.

I'd suggest this is now put to bed, I need to get at least part of my life back - unless of course you guys have other ideas.

Keith S


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## deanjerrydixon

Sharnor said:


> Hi Keith, I also have a problem along the same lines as Pete.
> 
> I passed my UK driving test in N. Ireland in 1966.
> 
> I moved to South Africa for quite a few years and had to do their driving test in 1978.
> 
> When I returned to the UK, I swapped my South African license for a UK license.
> 
> When I queried what I could drive, the DVLA originally said 7500kg plus trailer.
> 
> Then they changed their mind and said 3500kg plus trailer.
> 
> When I pointed out that both of my driving tests had been passed before 01/07/97, they replied that my UK license had expired while I was overseas and therefore did not count. With regard to my South African license they said that the "exchange agreement" only allowed for "small" vehicles i.e. cars and motorcycles.
> 
> Since I had also been told that the regulations refer to when you passed your test, and not when licenses had expired or been exchanged, I asked the DVLA for a copy of the exchange agreement. They said that my request has been forwarded to a "specialist" department.
> 
> I'm wondering if I shouldn't write to the DVLA under the Freedom of Information Act, and ask for copies of all regulations relating to the license required to drive a motor home, and all information relating to the classifation of a motor home?
> 
> 
> Norman


Hello,
I know this is a very old message but I have a similar issue. I did my test well before 1997 and exchanged my license from Canada in 2003. I have an automatic license only which is fine and want to be able to drive a vehicle that is about 4.5t. However I got the B+E but not the C1 on the exchange. I would have to take the C1 training in an automatic vehicle which basically means a very large vehicle and a big cost. Has anyone managed to get the DVLA to provide the C1 on an exchanged license please? Happy for it to be a C1 automatic.


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## jiwawa

Hello Dean and welcome to the forum. 

I can't imagine the DVLA would entertain a change to something that was processed back in 2003.

But you'll not know if you don't ask them.


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## deanjerrydixon

jiwawa said:


> Hello Dean and welcome to the forum.
> 
> I can't imagine the DVLA would entertain a change to something that was processed back in 2003.
> 
> But you'll not know if you don't ask them.


Thank you. I just wondered if there were other precedents set for people who had exchanged licenses.
We didn't realise the significance at the time of not having the C1 on the license.


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## jiwawa

Is it possible that you could change your idea of what you want regarding the heavy vehicle?


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## GMJ

Hi Jerry and welcome from me.

If you are contacting the DVLA then I'm sure that you are aware that they are experiencing severe backlogs at the mo (if reports on the news or various forums are anything to go by) so best do it sooner rather than later if you have a date by which you need your matter resolved (for a trip away for example).


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## Glandwr

I can vouch for the fact that there is a backlog in the DVLA re processing/renewing driving licences. 

I sent mine in to have the C1 entitlement renewed with all relevant documentation in May. To date, 12 weeks later, all I have received is an acknowledgement of receipt.

3 years ago they kept the licence for 5 months!!!!!!


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