# used A class purchase. possibly.



## coppo (May 27, 2009)

If you were buying a used motorhome(2003 reg) and the owner let slip he had a new awning due to a collision with a bus coming the opposite direction, also a new wing mirror, side window and there was minor bodywork damage.

Asked about the bodywork damage and he said he can't remember exactly, it was just minor.

Also the bonnet does not open right up without catching the bodywork, he said this is not related but can't remember how long it has been like this. He says it has not had a new bonnet

I have done a list of 20 faults that I found, fixable ones and costed them up, he has knocked off the money plus some more off. It needs new tyres(2001 dated), 2 interior blinds, waste pipe needs a new one and reconnecting, 2 new blown air heater pipes(crushed), etc.

Would you be able to tell if the damage was more serious, by checking somewhere?

Could the chassis be twisted in some way?

I have looked underneath etc and can't see anything bent etc.

Don't know if I,m being paranoid, he didn't have to tell me it had been in a collision a few years ago did he.

Paul.


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

There are a few things on your list that are easy fixed, but then I'm sure you know them without me telling you. The bonnet might even be down to hinge adjustment as for the wing mirror, well that not much to worry about. I would be more concerned about bodywork damage although unless the van was in a bad collision I would doubt the chassis is damaged, but for peace of mind I would get a professional inspection by the AA or RAC if possible. After all if there is nothing to hide the vendor won't mind and if he does forget it and look else ware, it's a buyers market this time of the year. 

Wobby


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I'd take steps, big ones, to the next one on your list, or make a ridiculously cheap offer.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

If the awning took the brunt of it, I would be bothered about seams being sprung and damp issues afterwards. An A Class front end might not have the same solidity as a coachbuilt (hence the ill fitting bonnet). I would walk away as well.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

I also would walk away, unless ridiculously cheap, and even then I would probably walk. I think that if the guy can't tell you exactly when and what happened, he couldn't give a damn about it and it has not been a cherished possession.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

I would also join the walkers Paul.

From the details you have posted it sounds to me that it hasn't been looked after at all well, and that would concern me.

Two broken blinds, two crushed heater pipes, broken and disconnected waste pipe!

None of them very serious or expensive to fix it's true, but if this is indicative of the TLC and routine maintenance it has *not *received, what else is wrong that you can't detect - until you get it home for a real good look!!

There are plenty more out there which have been cared for. I would wait for one of those.

Dave 

P.S. Just saw Graham's post above. He said the same as me, but much more succinctly!


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Give the seller a bit of cred for fessing up about the prang, he didn't have to say anything and has adjusted the price accordingly.

I wouldn't walk away quite as quickly.

If the tyres are not showing uneven wear across the set then it's probably OK.

Now you can walk away....   

Peter


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

In a nutshell Paul, you are obviously concerned.

That's not the way to enter into a major purchase, so don't!

Elementary psychology. :wink: 

Dave


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

listerdiesel said:


> Give the seller a bit of cred for fessing up about the prang, he didn't have to say anything and has adjusted the price accordingly.
> 
> I wouldn't walk away quite as quickly.
> 
> ...


They are the original tyres Peter, chassis was supplied to converter in 2001, tyres are dated 2001, vehicle is a 2003 reg. Loads of tread left on tyres but a bit cracked and a priority to change. Like you say he didn't have to say anything, you can't tell its had a new wing mirror or awning.

There is a little bit of bodywork damage on the rear wheel arch that's been badly repaired(filled) but nothing else.

Paul.


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## HarryTheHymer (May 1, 2005)

Hi Coppo

Is the vehicle RHD or LHD. If RHD how did the awning get damaged by a bus coming the other way? Unless, the incident happened in Europe.

Is the van a coachbuilt or PVC. Repairing damage on a coachbuilt can be much more expensive than a PVC.

A badly fitting bonnet could indicate the crash damage might be a little bit more serious than the owner has admitted.

Check tyres for uneven wear - indicating a possible distorted chassis.

Tyres 13 years old indicates an owner who hasn't maintained the vehicle very well.

It's strange the owner had a sudden loss of memory when asked for details of the collision. He may be able to provide photos of the damage.

I would walk away unless you are prepared to pay for a mechanical and structural survey.


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Zebedee said:


> In a nutshell Paul, you are obviously concerned.
> 
> That's not the way to enter into a major purchase, so don't!
> 
> ...


Yes I am concerned obviously Zebedee, its a top end motorhome(Le Voyageur). Its just the obvious neglect I am worried about, for instance, all locker doors are really hard to open due to seizing handles, never had a spray of anything, waste pipe not connected, metal waste lever seized up and rusty, fresh water cap doesn't lock etc etc.

Its like Jedi said, routine maintenance not been done and it shows. But is it just cosmetic, he says he has had it dry stored for years(since 2007)

I made a list and got to 21, nearly all easy fixes.

Don't want to miss a bargain but is he a convincing con man, anyone can say they have dry stored it.

Paul.


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

HarryTheHymer said:


> Hi Coppo
> 
> Is the vehicle RHD or LHD. If RHD how did the awning get damaged by a bus coming the other way? Unless, the incident happened in Europe.
> 
> ...


Its LHD, 2003 Le Voyageur A class.

Paul.


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

If I PM one of you with the link to it will you have a gander, I know its hard to tell from an advert.

Paul.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Paul, if it has been stored for 7 years, you are going to get lots of things sticking and not working and failing at a later time, also whayt about the engine, it could be rusty inside. Even marine engines are inhibited with oil for a 6 month winter storage.
If you are seriously interested, I would recommend a very detailed inspection, checking everything, what does and does not work.
The second Hymer we purchased had stood for one year, and we had quite a few sticky things and water piped popping off!
But as you say, it could be a bargain, just check everything.
What about receipt for any repairs, or insurance details?
Surely, he must have more information and know what and when!
I would consider it a trade purchase and should be priced accordingly!
Good luck! and I wish you well with whatever you decide.


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Grath said:


> Paul, if it has been stored for 7 years, you are going to get lots of things sticking and not working and failing at a later time, also whayt about the engine, it could be rusty inside. Even marine engines are inhibited with oil for a 6 month winter storage.
> If you are seriously interested, I would recommend a very detailed inspection, checking everything, what does and does not work.
> The second Hymer we purchased had stood for one year, and we had quite a few sticky things and water piped popping off!
> But as you say, it could be a bargain, just check everything.
> ...


I mean stored dry in between use he said, which wasn't much, he is giving up motorhoming.

Paul.


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## Jmdarr (Oct 9, 2013)

If in any doubt walk away


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

It really is a shame, a higher end motorhome going for a bargain price, and those le voyageur vans are very good, also very expensive, which makes one think it is a real bargain.
However unless he suffers from dementia, how could he forget when he had an accident. If there is no service history then forget it, unless you can get it for a silly price and can afford to spend a large amount to get it fixed. I take it that it is on the Merc chassis, an engine and gearbox stood without use for over 7 years. 
Walk away unless you have the time and money to spend.

If after all those have told you to walk away are not successful then I would arrange to have the mechanicals checked over properly then make a booking with Le Voyageur to have it checked over.

cabby


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

cabby said:


> It really is a shame, a higher end motorhome going for a bargain price, and those le voyageur vans are very good, also very expensive, which makes one think it is a real bargain.
> However unless he suffers from dementia, how could he forget when he had an accident. If there is no service history then forget it, unless you can get it for a silly price and can afford to spend a large amount to get it fixed. I take it that it is on the Merc chassis, an engine and gearbox stood without use for over 7 years.
> Walk away unless you have the time and money to spend.
> 
> ...


Yes on a Merc, I didn't mean it has been stored for 7 years without use, I meant in between use, although that wasn't much.

I agree Cabby he is being a bit evasive about the accident, I maybe need to look at the paperwork which wasn't available when I viewed it, but is now.

Paul.


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## salomon (Apr 20, 2011)

Some people dont take care of their vans as well as others. We are a bit like that. We got our back end biffed a week after we got ours. I remember because we had only just got it.
A couple of weeks ago we got onto a train in Austria and the mirrors are now wearing red paint and are quite scratched. We think its funny. We are unlikely to get it repaired...it adds to the character  and if yiu ask me in 5 years I would know how it happened but I would not have a clue as to when.
Maybe its just LeVoyageur owners ?

Seriously. If you are worried then walk away. They are lovely vans though...


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

It's a Le Voyageur - very high quality van - not to be dismissed lightly if it's the right price.

It's 11 years old - some minor damage is to be expected - if that damage has been repaired to the point where you can't tell then it's probably irrelevent.

Have you done a HPI check? Any past heavy damage will be recorded.

If you buy it, expect a lot of niggling problems, it's clearly been short on maintenance and it'll show until you've sorted them all out.

I'd buy it it if the price was right - but only if a damn good examination all over showed no major concerns, but I do have the skill and knowledge to sort out most technical problems. If you also have that skill and knowledge you should buy it. If you haven't then maybe best to leave it to someone who has (or get yourself onto a steep learning curve).


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Good idea about the HPI check, will get one done before/if I go ahead.

Its just the major issues I am worried about, has it suffered really bad damage, is the chassis slightly twisted, has the aluminium frame moved a bit.

Paul.


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

It's extremely unlikely the chassis has been damaged Paul, a collision heavy enough to damage the average M/H chassis would probably wipe out the body completely. Measure the wheelbase on both sides (or better still across corners) and compare if you're suspicious. Ask the owner to drive it down the road whilst you follow in a car, any "crabbing" will be obvious. If there is no uneven tyre wear it's very unlikely to be twisted.

I've seen M/Hs that have sustained heavy impact damage, it shows from a mile away. Any substantial impact will leave obvious creases that extend right down or across the side and/or roof panels, usually extending from the corners of rigid infills such as window or door frames. Have a look on the roof if you haven't already done so, a heavy impact will always leave ripples on the roof. If it's a GRP body there will be cracks in the gelcoat or evidence of repairs.


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

gaspode said:


> It's extremely unlikely the chassis has been damaged Paul, a collision heavy enough to damage the average M/H chassis would probably wipe out the body completely. Measure the wheelbase on both sides (or better still across corners) and compare if you're suspicious. Ask the owner to drive it down the road whilst you follow in a car, any "crabbing" will be obvious. If there is no uneven tyre wear it's very unlikely to be twisted.
> 
> I've seen M/Hs that have sustained heavy impact damage, it shows from a mile away. Any substantial impact will leave obvious creases that extend right down or across the side and/or roof panels, usually extending from the corners of rigid infills such as window or door frames. Have a look on the roof if you haven't already done so, a heavy impact will always leave ripples on the roof. If it's a GRP body there will be cracks in the gelcoat or evidence of repairs.


Thanks Ken, it drives well and I can see no damage on the roof, I got up to look at it, there is a small repair on the rear wheel arch that has been bodged but that's all, no creases, tyres Knackered but that's because they are dated 2001, no uneven wear though.

Paul.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Don't forget to let us know what you decide to do.

cabby


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## wakk44 (Jun 15, 2006)

The more I read about this potential purchase the more doubtful I am.It has been neglected and not repaired properly by the previous owner so what else has been neglected.I like it when an owner gets everything done in a timely manner and can produce receipts to prove it.

It sound like the OP has been very tempted to buy this van and get it sorted out,I would advise caution and to double check everything before going ahead.That said if a cash adjustment is made for the repairs it could well be a worthwhile purchase.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

The problem with motorhomes (as you well know Steve) is not what you can see but what you cannot see.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

You don't mention price for this van, or the model of Le Voyageur A class as there are a few different ones. so very difficult for anyone but you to decide if it's good value or not.

It may be a bargain, the chances are it isn't from what you've said, if it were 50/50 I'd take a chance but it would have to be no more than 2/3rds the price of a good used one in a private sale or 1/2 from a dealer for exact same model, disregarding any extras fitted, as they never affect the sale anyway very much.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

I'd go for it personally, there's not sufficient evidence of serious damage or neglect, tyres are not a major issue and it is a quality brand. It drives OK according to Paul.

As long as the price reflects the cost of the small list of repairs, I think it is one to go for.

Paul is going in with his eyes wide open and backed by lots of advice on here, so he should be good to make up his mind.

Plenty of time before the 2015 season to sort out the minor problems.

I've got my Mercedes EPC/WIS system running now, so can look up parts and service bulletins by VIN number, so if Paul needs any parts info, I can do that now.

Peter


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Yes Kev, only coppo has the full info and only he can decide.
It obviously has not been cared for, but depending on price and coppo's ability to effect repairs, it could be the opportunity to buy a neglected quality van at a low price. It seems similar to an auction buy, except coppo has the chance of carrying out a proper inspection.
It could turn out to be a bargain or a lemon, you pay your money and take you chance.
I would allow for all of the known defects, double them and be prepared for more. Price with that in mind and consider it a trade purchase.
Don't get carried away by your heart.
Another thought. If a motorhome had been in an accident bad enough to bend the chassis, and make it crab, I would have expected the bodywork to be in bits. This does not appear to be the case.
I suppose gut feeling will come into play!


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I must have missed the bit about crabbing, but it doesn't have to be a bent chassis, a good kurbing in reverse can move the axle etc, it's only a U bolt and a pin holding them in place, as would a good clout on the front wheels, bendin a wishbone etc


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> I must have missed the bit about crabbing, but it doesn't have to be a bent chassis, a good kurbing in reverse can move the axle etc, it's only a U bolt and a pin holding them in place, as would a good clout on the front wheels, bendin a wishbone etc


Kev I don't think it is crabbing, it was just mentioned. As you say, crabbing can easily be sorted, in most circumstances.


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

listerdiesel said:


> I'd go for it personally, there's not sufficient evidence of serious damage or neglect, tyres are not a major issue and it is a quality brand. It drives OK according to Paul.
> 
> As long as the price reflects the cost of the small list of repairs, I think it is one to go for.
> 
> ...


Peter, many thanks for that offer, I may take you up on it I we purchase,

Also thanks to everyone for their response/advice, a bit to think about.

I am leaning towards Peters and Gaspodes thinking at the minute, I don't think it can have any serious damage as the bodywork/roof would show this and it drives well.

Going to arrange another look at it, I can do minor repairs, refit the waste system, new blown air pipes, blinds etc myself, its just a worry when you find out a MH has been in a accident, the owner says it was minor though.

Paul.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

coppo said:


> listerdiesel said:
> 
> 
> > I'd go for it personally, there's not sufficient evidence of serious damage or neglect, tyres are not a major issue and it is a quality brand. It drives OK according to Paul.
> ...


I think most of us would if we'd had a collision, would have taken some pictures of the damage, we might not all have smartphones, but phones with cameras have been around a long time now, or even an ordinary camera, I managed to scrape mine a few years ago and took pictures, it might be worth asking to see them if he admits to having taken any, at least then you can see the extent of any damage.


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Paul, I can appreciate your concerns over this one.
If it had encountered serious crash damage, even professionally repaired it would be likely that some evidence will show, especially after time. Given the van has a GRP construction, it will most likely have self coloured gel coat as the colour and no matter how good a paint match is used for repair it will age differently to the original. Think how many not very old coachbuilts you see that are multi shaded where the painted parts have aged differently to the plastic ones or the GRP bits, not because they have been repaired just a fact of ageing, Swifts seem to be particularly prone (as does my Pilote).
"A" class bonnets rarely fit well and if they have been removed for work in the very cramped engine bay are a pig to get back correctly.
How many miles / Kms has it done?, if not starship then a lack of maintenance records isn't as bad as some would suggest, how many reports of poor dealer maintenance do you see on this forum?

Many owners are totally useless at even noticing things like internal fittings needing attention and use them infrequently anyway so don't bother about it.

Desire to own it and the price you have to pay will most likely be the deciding factor but as others suggest if you are not confident with your own assessment of the major mechanical / structural parts then get an independent inspection carried out before commiting to it.


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> coppo said:
> 
> 
> > listerdiesel said:
> ...


Thanks, I have asked him Kev about photos of the damage, he has not got any.

Paul.


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

eurajohn said:


> Paul, I can appreciate your concerns over this one.
> If it had encountered serious crash damage, even professionally repaired it would be likely that some evidence will show, especially after time. Given the van has a GRP construction, it will most likely have self coloured gel coat as the colour and no matter how good a paint match is used for repair it will age differently to the original. Think how many not very old coachbuilts you see that are multi shaded where the painted parts have aged differently to the plastic ones or the GRP bits, not because they have been repaired just a fact of ageing, Swifts seem to be particularly prone (as does my Pilote).
> "A" class bonnets rarely fit well and if they have been removed for work in the very cramped engine bay are a pig to get back correctly.
> How many miles / Kms has it done?, if not starship then a lack of maintenance records isn't as bad as some would suggest, how many reports of poor dealer maintenance do you see on this forum?
> ...


Thanks John.

Can't see any difference at all in any bodywork colour/panels etc.

Its done 45,000 miles in 11 years, he has got some service records which I will be looking at, just had a big service this year he said.

May do an HPI check and if that's ok will go ahead I think after another look.

Paul.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Good luck, whatever you decide.

You can only make what is for you, the *right decision at the time*. If it all goes wrong later that's unfortunate, but you will have done everything in your power to get it right.

Can't do more than that! 

Dave


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Ditto what he said, Good luck mate.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Pity you're so far away, I'd have been happy to come with you and have a look at it.

Is there anyone else local to Paul that could go along and have a look?

Peter


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Barry, (yeah right) and Jim (747) are up that way too, maybe go mob handed, get some proper discount.

I don't suppose the seller is a member on here is he?

I hold fast to not believing anything anyone says when they're trying to sell me something.

Caveat Emptor

Caveat Emptor. [Latin, Let the buyer beware.] A warning that notifies a buyer that the goods he or she is buying are "as is," or subject to all defects.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

A second opinion is always handy, and Barry is quite capable of looking at it and forming an opinion, just don't let him touch anything!   

Peter


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Jim could cast his 4rse over it too.


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## wakk44 (Jun 15, 2006)

coppo said:


> ......................
> Its done 45,000 miles in 11 years, he has got some service records which I will be looking at, just had a big service this year he said......
> Paul.


Just had a big service he said !!!

Surely he's kept the invoice for the service,it's something that a motorhome owner would do automatically.

Why no pictures of the collision damage?Again something that I and I suspect the majority of motorhomers would do without thinking.

Sorry to rain on your parade Paul but the more I find out about this motorhome the more my antenna is twitching.It may well be a desirable marque but my instinct would be to look for a well maintained and cared for van elsewhere,there are plenty about.This one just doesn't feel right to me.


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

There's an awful lot of people trying to sell motorhomes that are straight.

I don't think I'd want to take the massive financial risk of buying a lemon, when there are so many other well kept, fully maintained and fully documented others to choose from.

All the vague info you're getting (and details/documentation you're not getting) from this seller is just WAY too dodgy for me.

DO NOT let heart rule head.


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

My overview of the "advice" being given here is.

From those mechanically capable: 

Go for it but be careful and get it for a bargain price, be prepared to rectify the minor niggles you have already identified and possibly deal with any other unforeseen problems of whatever magnitude that may surface in the future.

From those that rely on dealers both mechanical and habitation for any problems they encounter:

Leave it alone and go get a documented overpriced example from a dealer that may or may not honour any problems which arise within the warranty period. 
But it is worth taking into account, you'll still foot the bill for any issues after the warranty period expires, no matter how good (or otherwise) the warranty is.

Being in the first camp I'm biased :wink:


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Oh bugger it, you know you fancy it, you know the price, you realise what it may well cost you to put major things right, say up to £10k. Can you buy another for £?? that would be a better buy is the answer, if not check it for HPi. and buy it.

cabby


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

TheNomad said:


> DO NOT let heart rule head.


Paul wouldn't be human if he did that.

We all do it to a certain degree (he says, with a 6-ton Mercedes in bits outside!)

Peter


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

I think the smart move is to ask Caroline whether she is prepared to own the risk ;-)

Dave


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## Jamsieboy (Jan 14, 2011)

DABurleigh said:


> I think the smart move is to ask Caroline whether she is prepared to own the risk ;-)
> 
> Dave


Romance is not dead :wink:


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## HarryTheHymer (May 1, 2005)

Something else to consider - if you bought this van and some years down the line you decided to sell, would you have problems.

I'm thinking of poor service record, LHD and only two Le Voyageur dealers in UK, located in the MIdlands. Does it have an oven which most UK buyers seem to require (perhaps being French it probably does). Does it have a large fridge/freezer which most people nowadays seem to require, especially if travelling for months in Europe.

I'm sure the Le Voyageur is a very well made van (especially on the Merc chassis) but it doesn't have quite the same resale clout as say Rapido, Pilote and the German vans. If you are looking for LHD then the market is mostly limited to French, German and Italian vans. 

There is nothing more demoralising than trying to sell a van which doesn't attract punters. I had a LHD Hymer and it sold very quickly, allowing me to move on and purchase a van with bigger payload (ie. 4250kg MAM).

I assume the van you are interested in, has a decent payload and at least 16 inch tyres, otherwise you might be struggling with payload on a 7m long van.

I wish you all the best.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

If you think a bit of bodywork damage is a worry, we found what we thought was a deliberate cut in the top structural rail of the Mercedes body, but it turns out on closer inspection to be a crack:










It looks as though the bus door operating motor has over-stressed the body where the original structure has been cut out and a new frame inserted.

All repairable, but still would have been unseen if we hadn't stripped the trim away.

Peter


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I could see it was thin and assumed it'd been done with a plasma cutter, but why was the question, it looks very straight for a stress crack too, but a freezer spray on the outside & a TIG weld inside you might get away with not painting.


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