# How many winter tyres?



## mfa (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi All

I would be grateful for some advice, albeit covered in parts already but not quite definitive......

I am looking to travel to Germany over the Easter break and wondered if I need to have winter tyres on all axles? 

We currently have Toyo H09 winter/all season tyres on the front drive wheels (and have since last February) but wondered if we need to put them on the rear two axles, under recent German law changes???? 

If so, although I know they should be Toyo H09's, what are the implications if they aren't??? The only reason I ask is that it seems almost impossible to get a set of 225/75 R16 Toyo's on the tinterweb.

Any tyre people who know their stuff and German travelers, I would be grateful for your advice.


cheers


Mark


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

Hi Mark,

What sort of tyres do you have on the back?

If they have the M&S marker on them then you'll be legal in all Euorpean countries.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Tyres*

You should have winter tyres on all axles.

M+S issue has been discussed here before, I think they are a grey area when it comes to acceptance by the German authorities.

The problem you have is, your tyre size are eye watering expensive @ around £180-£300 EACH!

If you axle load permitted, you could fit 215/75/16's on the rear. Falken's come out @ around £100 each.

But you need to check.

If you have Toyo's 225/75/16's on the Front. These will be rated at min of 121 1450kG LI (so 2900kG max tyre load on the front axle).

The Falkens and Standard Toyo in 215/75/16's are only rated at 113. These are 1150 per tyre, 2,300 per axle. So if you have a Tag, 4 tyres will give you 4600kG on the back.

However, you are in-luck. Toyo make a stronger tyre in the 215/75/16 size with a 116 (1250kG) rating per tyre. These are around £120 each.

So 4 x 1250 = 5000kG max on two axles.

If you need any clarification, please ask.

Take a look here!

Hope this helps?

TM

PS:

(1) If you have 121 rated tyres currently fitted to the rear, your max tyre load on the 4 (2 axles) is 5800kG's.

(2) Narrower tyres perform better on/in snow!


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## mfa (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi Bill

I currently have Michelin Camping tyres on the back, which were also originally on the front axle but next to useless on anything but dry tarmc. 

Hi Again Teemyob 

Thanks for your past help in choosing the Toyo’s (only £120 each last February!!!!!), they’ve been great…..the Toyo’s on the front are rated at 118, but the original Michelins were only 113 (same as th Falkens you mention) so I guess there is some flexibility there……the whole van has an MTPLM or MAM is 5000kg, but not sure of the front axle weight. 

Would I be OK with slightly smaller tyres on the back (215/75/16) and would they fit the existing wheels???? If so, what size spare would you opt for and should this also be a Toyo (currently a Michelin)?

Thanks for the info so far….

Cheers


Mark


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*smaller tyres*



mfa said:


> Hi Bill
> 
> I currently have Michelin Camping tyres on the back, which were also originally on the front axle but next to useless on anything but dry tarmc.
> 
> ...


The max recommended +/- differential for tyres is 4%. Fitting 215's in place of your 225's would give you a -2% figure. Even accounting for wear, I doubt you would reach 4%.

Your Speedo and drive ratings would not change as you have FWD. Braking is adversely effected by fitting greatly oversized tyres.

On the Fiat/Alko rating plates, doe it give optional / retro tyre sizes?

TM


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*J's*

Do you know the "J" Size of the wheel, stamped on it (usually on the inside).

I would keep the spare as it is.

TM


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## mfa (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi TM....Not sure of the "J" size but could find out in a week or so, again could also look to see if optional tyre sizes are offered......thanks again.

When I have more info can I PM you if needed?

Cheers


Mark


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

mfa said:


> Hi Bill
> 
> I currently have Michelin Camping tyres on the back, which were also originally on the front axle but next to useless on anything but dry tarmc.
> Mark


Hi Mark,

So in answer to your question " wondered if we need to put them on the rear two axles, under recent German law changes????" the answer is no.


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## trek (May 1, 2005)

I wouldn't mix winter & summers or Winters with all season

I like having same tyre at each corner

see this advice on the Continental tyre web site :-

Winter tires should be fitted to all wheel positions, not mixed with all season or summer tires. If only one axle set of winter tires are used, then it is recommended to install them on the rear axle. Placing greater traction on the rear axle is recommended to prevent a possible oversteer condition and loss of vehicle stability on slippery surfaces
(& this is same reason new tyres should go on rear )

see also this youtube video :-


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

BillCreer said:


> mfa said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Bill
> ...


Hello Bill,

mfa stated

"I currently have Michelin Camping tyres on the back, which were also originally on the front axle but next to useless on anything but dry tarmc. "

I think he should change them. And I am in agreement with trek re the mix.

I am not disputing or knocking your comments re the M+S thing. I am offering my opinion to help out the poster, mfa.

TM


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## Hezbez (Feb 7, 2009)

Our car insurance told us if we were doing winter tyres they had to be fitted to all axles.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*J's 2*



mfa said:


> Hi TM....Not sure of the "J" size but could find out in a week or so, again could also look to see if optional tyre sizes are offered......thanks again.
> 
> When I have more info can I PM you if needed?
> 
> ...


215/75/16's will fit if you have 225/75/16's already fitted.

The Ideal J size for both of the above is in the Range of 6 - 7½ J

TM


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi,

the current legal situation in Germany regarding winter tyres is as follows:

If there is snow, ice, slush or hoarfrost on the road, then you may only drive if your vehicle is fitted with winter tyres on ALL axles. A tyre is considered a winter tyre if it carries the snowflake or the M+S symbol, and the remaining tread profile is at least 4 millimetres deep.

There is an exception, but this only applies for vehicles with a maximum allowed mass of more than 7.5 tons. On such vehicles only the driven axles have to have winter tyres. (In my eyes a courtesy to the transport industry.)

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

I was extemely lucky and picked up 4 215/75/16 never used snow tyres on ebay a couple of weeks ago. It pained be to pay 3 times as much in total for the matching two. :roll: 

They are rated 113 as per van manual. The gross wt of van is 5.999kg was that right TM?

Dick


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*4 Tyres*



Glandwr said:


> I was extemely lucky and picked up 4 215/75/16 never used snow tyres on ebay a couple of weeks ago. It pained be to pay 3 times as much in total for the matching two. :roll:
> 
> They are rated 113 as per van manual. The gross wt of van is 5.999kg was that right TM?
> 
> Dick


If it is 5.999kG, that will be a Sprinter 616CDi.

And I assume you have the 4 plus 2 others (6 in total) on the van?.

So four on one single axle will usually be the lower rating of 111 on the back as opposed to the 113 that they will be for the front axle.

So

4 x the 111 rating on the back single axle = 4,360kG
2 x the 113 rating on the front axle = 2,300kG

Total Absolute Max = 6,600kG.

TM


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Glandwr said:


> I was extemely lucky and picked up 4 215/75/16 never used snow tyres on ebay a couple of weeks ago. It pained be to pay 3 times as much in total for the matching two. :roll:
> 
> They are rated 113 as per van manual. The gross wt of van is 5.999kg was that right TM?
> 
> Dick


You jammy devil, wish i could drop on as lucky.

What make were the ebay ones?

Paul.


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