# VW Transporter Alternative?



## grizzlyj

Hi folks 

The wife and I have had a chunking big 4x4 motorhome for a few years now, but are thinking of going small for a while! Small enough for a not too long daily commute, must be auto as the wife can't get on with a stick.

A VW Transporter perhaps from Bilbos is the obvious choice, but I don't think either of us like the idea of DSG, nice idea unreliable in practice?

The recent Hyundai i800 from Wellhouse seems good and is about all we want to spend, has a 6kg gas bottle (Bilbos 3,9kg) and a 5yr warranty. But bad mpg maybe, even for the diesel?

Any other van we should consider? 4 berth 4 seat belts minimum with a double bed, preferably low profile. Or is this too small to even be on the horizon of all you "serious" campers? 

I suppose a small auto car and an older manual VW could also be possible, and there is room on the drive, but is 3 vehicles (inc my commuter) getting a little ott if two could do the job?

Cheers

Jason


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## trevd01

The Wellhouse Hyundai looks fantastic.

We used to have a Wellhouse Bongo. The quality and attention to detail of Wellhouse products is superb.

David Elliot the MD, is a good man to do business with.


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## 1302

There is no alternative to a VW T4 in my view...

A Hyundai doesnt even come close - sorry...

A Bongo - even less so.

Try a Merc  if a VW is out of your league


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## teemyob

*what about*

what about something like This? but with an auto box?

The Latest Sprinter SWB is only inches longer than an Audi Q7

This  Sprinter might be too long and way too expensive.

Here is an older SWB Sprinter

Maybe you could buy a nice motor and get it converted?


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## pneumatician

I have owned a T4 and now have a Merc with other Vans in between.
Nothing compares IMHO.
You pays your money and takes your choice.

Steve


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## Mandale

Word is that Toyota are working on a replacement for the Hi-ace, I think they are going to call it the Hi-ace world van. They have stopped importing the current Hi-ace and are just selling what they have here already. This probably means that the new Hi-ace will land quite soon. I would assume that if it is a ‘world van’ this may mean we will get all the toys like automatic gear boxes that we couldn’t get on the current Hi-ace. I only know of one van that I would rate as being more reliable than a VW and that is definitely Toyota. Another up side to Toyota is the cost. The only down side to the Toyota, is that although they always build a very reliable vehicle, they seem to forget to make the interior attractive. On style, the VW wins hands down but on reliability and value, the Toyota definitely comes first. 

If you can wait, you may find that the van in front is a Toyota!


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## teemyob

*hi ace*



Mandale said:


> Word is that Toyota are working on a replacement for the Hi-ace, I think they are going to call it the Hi-ace world van. They have stopped importing the current Hi-ace and are just selling what they have here already. This probably means that the new Hi-ace will land quite soon. I would assume that if it is a 'world van' this may mean we will get all the toys like automatic gear boxes that we couldn't get on the current Hi-ace. I only know of one van that I would rate as being more reliable than a VW and that is definitely Toyota. Another up side to Toyota is the cost. The only down side to the Toyota, is that although they always build a very reliable vehicle, they seem to forget to make the interior attractive. On style, the VW wins hands down but on reliability and value, the Toyota definitely comes first.
> 
> If you can wait, you may find that the van in front is a Toyota!


The old Hi Ace's are like sewing machines (just oil em, change the odd band and feed them, they go on for ever).

But, they were never that frugal, hardly dynamic to drive and painfully slow.

Automatics were never introduced into the UK.

Lets hope the new ones are good.

TM


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## Stanner

I heard that the AA gave up on T4s because they had too many breakdowns.

And I heard that from an AA patrolman. :wink:


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## teemyob

*Pun*



Stanner said:


> I heard that the AA gave up on T4s because they had too many breakdowns.
> 
> And I heard that from an AA patrolman. :wink:


I am sure there is a Pun in there somewhere!?.

TM


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## Stanner

*Re: Pun*



teemyob said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard that the AA gave up on T4s because they had too many breakdowns.
> 
> And I heard that from an AA patrolman. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure there is a Pun in there somewhere!?.
> 
> TM
Click to expand...

I also know a ex-VW technician and his opinion of T4s and T5s are unrepeatable.

However if some prefer them to such as Mazda Bongos so be it, someone has to keep VW dealers in the manner to which they have become accustomed.


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## Mandale

Stanner said:


> I heard that the AA gave up on T4s because they had too many breakdowns.
> 
> And I heard that from an AA patrolman. :wink:


Good one Stanner, someone else that can see past the VW hype. I run an Audi a6 diesel, every time I start it up a different fault light comes on !. I have had it on the Audi diagnostic computer many times and no fault can be found, then the fault light goes out again.
nothing wrong with the car, it all works fine, but its not convinced !.
I have always run Toyota vehicles for our business, Yaris, Hi-ace, and Hi-lux, cant remember ever seeing a fault light on them. 
Maybe Totoyta vehicles don't have fault lights? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## teemyob

*Fault*



Mandale said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard that the AA gave up on T4s because they had too many breakdowns.
> 
> And I heard that from an AA patrolman. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Good one Stanner, someone else that can see past the VW hype. I run an Audi a6 diesel, every time I start it up a different fault light comes on !. I have had it on the Audi diagnostic computer many times and no fault can be found, then the fault light goes out again.
> nothing wrong with the car, it all works fine, but its not convinced !.
> I have always run Toyota vehicles for our business, Yaris, Hi-ace, and Hi-lux, cant remember ever seeing a fault light on them.
> Maybe Totoyta vehicles don't have fault lights? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

We run a 11 year old Previa for our eldest Daughter and her husband. I think it still has 19 years left on its Previa Warranty! :lol:


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## Stanner

Mandale said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard that the AA gave up on T4s because they had too many breakdowns.
> 
> And I heard that from an AA patrolman. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Good one Stanner, someone else that can see past the VW hype. I run an Audi a6 diesel, every time I start it up a different fault light comes on !. I have had it on the Audi diagnostic computer many times and no fault can be found, then the fault light goes out again.
> nothing wrong with the car, it all works fine, but its not convinced !.
> I have always run Toyota vehicles for our business, Yaris, Hi-ace, and Hi-lux, cant remember ever seeing a fault light on them.
> Maybe Totoyta vehicles don't have fault lights? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

One further bit of info...

I used to do mystery shopping on car servicing for the agency that undertook it on behalf of a well known German motor group (3 letters, based just off the M1 50 miles north of London and NOT BMW!)

If it had been my own money paying for the services I received, at least 3 of them would have been reported for fraud.

Another little factette - the cheapest service (Kings Lynn - £99) was by far the best and the most expensive (Docklands - £265 for exactly the same "Annual Check" service!!!  ) was far and away the worst. 
PS They were on a car that sounds like it ought to be a sheet of paper (297x210)


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## thegamwellsmythes

The Hyundai looks very smart. Looks like a good choice with a good warranty

A freind has a Mazda Bongo which is an automatic diesel which he says is great. A bit small on the inside compared to a VW but very nice. He got that from a place in Manchester that imports them from Japan and fits them with a very nice camping interior.

I drive a Passat with the DSG gearbox which so far has been very good. Following the oil change regime is probably the important bit but not cheap. It's very smooth. Don't know what it would be like on a bigger heavier vehicle.

Good luck there quite a lot of choice in that bit of the market.


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## SpeedyDux

My T4 has never broken down (touch wood) and the fuel economy is excellent. It is comfy, easy to drive, and a long journey is not tiring. The downside is that the maintenance and servicing has been a lot more expensive than I expected over the past 4 years. 

The other difficulty is that the VW dealerships have huge exclusive territories (at least in my part of the world) and seem very complacent towards campervan customers. If you buy a new VW California you will be expected to have it serviced at the VW Van Centre which is in a different world from the shiny car showroom. It is White Van Man central and the fleet customers always get priority. You will be last in the queue. There are no courtesy loan cars. Your campervan will not be washed and vaccuumed. Don't wear clothes that you would care about if they get black grease on them. And so on.

I had a Toyota MR2 and that was the most reliable thing ever. I hope Toyota brings out a new HiAce Van with all the bells and whistles as a base vehicle for conversion. Can't wait.

SD


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## goldi

Afternoon folks, Ihad atoyota hi ace until last year,
bought it new in 2004, sold it with 32000 miles on and did not cost penny except on routine servicing, none of this reverse judder and spare wheels dropping off mularky, even on the day I sold it I would have set off through Africa in it.



norm


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## 1302

*Re: Pun*



Stanner said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> someone has to keep VW dealers in the manner to which they have become accustomed.
> 
> 
> 
> Yawn. :roll:
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Stanner

*Re: Pun*



1302 said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> someone has to keep VW dealers in the manner to which they have become accustomed.
> 
> 
> 
> Yawn. :roll:
Click to expand...

Read my later post about my work experience, or rather my experience at work.

It wasn't all "sheets of paper", some of it involved a "Royal & Ancient" car and yet more a van normally associated with assisting those "Royal & Ancient" players.

...... and believe me it opened my eyes to just how they manage to keep themselves.

<Edit> to sort out the quotes


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## grizzlyj

Thanks for all the replies!

My wife and I went to Bilbos on Wednesday. We looked round most of their new and used stock, including a cute Hylo Romahome  One more seatbelt and its cuteness may have won over speed, size, driving appeal etc etc!

We drove a new manual 140ps Celex which seems the best layout for us in their range. Very nice, comfy seats, firm ride, "crisp" might be a good description! Pulled well fom low revs in all gears, the steering was fine, the wheel too small if anything and annoyingly slightly offset to the right. "They all do that Sir"  I'm told the view from the passenger seat was 50% obscured by the clean/dirty wiper sweep dividing line. Getting one as a camper base from VW means a better spec cab and more sound insulation.

A LWB Celex 140ps with what we may want on it is about £48k without awning, bike rack etc. An ex-demo (?) with off-side rear door is close enough and reduced to £44k

We also drove a Mercedes De Zine, 2009, 3.0CDi V6 auto, 16000miles, similar spec to the demo Celex (top loading fridge though), but really grey, dark and to us unattractive as a conversion. The rear seats folded flat into a bed at the touch of a button, ott use of your leisure battery! To drive it was proper fun, loads of grunt and cruised quietly, less vanlike. Nice! 

Everything of this size at Bilbos had cold water only, the calorifier etc takes up too much valuable storage we were told, but they could fit it if you wanted. 

Yesterday we went to Wellhouse Leisure and looked at the new i800 Hyundai. Its not quite the same any any Bilbo variant, but is maybe closest to the Celex? A bulge in the interior trim helps increase bed width a little though. 2.5l 4 cyl 168bhp, 289lb ft, 5sp manual, or 168bhp, 324lb ft auto, so there is enough go. I'm told internally its half way (5125mm externally) between VW long (5292) and short (4892) lengthwise. Both the same height outside, both offer similar thin solar panels.

It has a rotissarie oven, 2 burners, (smaller) compressor fridge, hot and cold at both the sink and tailgate shower, but only heats the water as its needed so no bulky hot tank. (Is there a down side to this?) Plenty of led lights, only the passenger seat swivels but the drivers seat is central to the steering wheel! Only the drivers seat is heated and I think no heated mirrors. USB for IPod though. The fresh and grey are underslung, can be insulated and the small "fishtank" heaters can be fitted. A bigger gas bottle than Bilbos is appealing, and you can have a Gaslow instead. Bilbos has a slightly larger leisure battery.

The Hyundai is rear wheel drive so would be better for towing, and with no drive gubbins to get in the way at the front the turning circle feels tiny! The floor is possibly higher though, so underbed storage seems less deep, and there is no room between top of window and ceiling for the little cupboards that the VW has. 

The Hyundai still has two big sliding side doors despite one being blanked off by the cupboards etc, so the cupboards can't be as deep as if it was just wall. But, this gives excellant access to the back of everything for fixing if needed, fuses, and draining down. Very good I think.

So at the moment it seems the Hyundai is really a no brainer, even if I could pay £13000 more for a little more storage in a similar layout, less bhp and no hot water, though maybe the VW is better looking? The 5 year Hyundai unlimited mile warranty with breakdown is matched on the conversion too. Bilbos is 2 years 24,000 miles, VW is 2yr unlimited mile, 3rd year van centre warranty, 3yr breakdown.

We will go and look at a more normal sized van conversions, and we're looking at a 4x4 dismountable, but the i800 is looking promising!

Cheers

Jason


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## teemyob

*I800*



grizzlyj said:


> Thanks for all the replies!
> 
> My wife and I went to Bilbos on Wednesday. We looked round most of their new and used stock, including a cute Hylo Romahome  One more seatbelt and its cuteness may have won over speed, size, driving appeal etc etc!
> 
> We drove a new manual 140ps Celex which seems the best layout for us in their range. Very nice, comfy seats, firm ride, "crisp" might be a good description! Pulled well fom low revs in all gears, the steering was fine, the wheel too small if anything and annoyingly slightly offset to the right. "They all do that Sir"  I'm told the view from the passenger seat was 50% obscured by the clean/dirty wiper sweep dividing line. Getting one as a camper base from VW means a better spec cab and more sound insulation.
> 
> A LWB Celex 140ps with what we may want on it is about £48k without awning, bike rack etc. An ex-demo (?) with off-side rear door is close enough and reduced to £44k
> 
> We also drove a Mercedes De Zine, 2009, 3.0CDi V6 auto, 16000miles, similar spec to the demo Celex (top loading fridge though), but really grey, dark and to us unattractive as a conversion. The rear seats folded flat into a bed at the touch of a button, ott use of your leisure battery! To drive it was proper fun, loads of grunt and cruised quietly, less vanlike. Nice!
> 
> Everything of this size at Bilbos had cold water only, the calorifier etc takes up too much valuable storage we were told, but they could fit it if you wanted.
> 
> Yesterday we went to Wellhouse Leisure and looked at the new i800 Hyundai. Its not quite the same any any Bilbo variant, but is maybe closest to the Celex? A bulge in the interior trim helps increase bed width a little though. 2.5l 4 cyl 168bhp, 289lb ft, 5sp manual, or 168bhp, 324lb ft auto, so there is enough go. I'm told internally its half way (5125mm externally) between VW long (5292) and short (4892) lengthwise. Both the same height outside, both offer similar thin solar panels.
> 
> It has a rotissarie oven, 2 burners, (smaller) compressor fridge, hot and cold at both the sink and tailgate shower, but only heats the water as its needed so no bulky hot tank. (Is there a down side to this?) Plenty of led lights, only the passenger seat swivels but the drivers seat is central to the steering wheel! Only the drivers seat is heated and I think no heated mirrors. USB for IPod though. The fresh and grey are underslung, can be insulated and the small "fishtank" heaters can be fitted. A bigger gas bottle than Bilbos is appealing, and you can have a Gaslow instead. Bilbos has a slightly larger leisure battery.
> 
> The Hyundai is rear wheel drive so would be better for towing, and with no drive gubbins to get in the way at the front the turning circle feels tiny! The floor is possibly higher though, so underbed storage seems less deep, and there is no room between top of window and ceiling for the little cupboards that the VW has.
> 
> The Hyundai still has two big sliding side doors despite one being blanked off by the cupboards etc, so the cupboards can't be as deep as if it was just wall. But, this gives excellant access to the back of everything for fixing if needed, fuses, and draining down. Very good I think.
> 
> So at the moment it seems the Hyundai is really a no brainer, even if I could pay £13000 more for a little more storage in a similar layout, less bhp and no hot water, though maybe the VW is better looking? The 5 year Hyundai unlimited mile warranty with breakdown is matched on the conversion too. Bilbos is 2 years 24,000 miles, VW is 2yr unlimited mile, 3rd year van centre warranty, 3yr breakdown.
> 
> We will go and look at a more normal sized van conversions, and we're looking at a 4x4 dismountable, but the i800 is looking promising!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jason


Shame there is no Auto option as yet for the i800.


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## Stanner

*Re: I800*



teemyob said:


> grizzlyj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the replies!
> 
> My wife and I went to Bilbos on Wednesday. We looked round most of their new and used stock, including a cute Hylo Romahome  One more seatbelt and its cuteness may have won over speed, size, driving appeal etc etc!
> 
> We drove a new manual 140ps Celex which seems the best layout for us in their range. Very nice, comfy seats, firm ride, "crisp" might be a good description! Pulled well fom low revs in all gears, the steering was fine, the wheel too small if anything and annoyingly slightly offset to the right. "They all do that Sir"  I'm told the view from the passenger seat was 50% obscured by the clean/dirty wiper sweep dividing line. Getting one as a camper base from VW means a better spec cab and more sound insulation.
> 
> A LWB Celex 140ps with what we may want on it is about £48k without awning, bike rack etc. An ex-demo (?) with off-side rear door is close enough and reduced to £44k
> 
> We also drove a Mercedes De Zine, 2009, 3.0CDi V6 auto, 16000miles, similar spec to the demo Celex (top loading fridge though), but really grey, dark and to us unattractive as a conversion. The rear seats folded flat into a bed at the touch of a button, ott use of your leisure battery! To drive it was proper fun, loads of grunt and cruised quietly, less vanlike. Nice!
> 
> Everything of this size at Bilbos had cold water only, the calorifier etc takes up too much valuable storage we were told, but they could fit it if you wanted.
> 
> Yesterday we went to Wellhouse Leisure and looked at the new i800 Hyundai. Its not quite the same any any Bilbo variant, but is maybe closest to the Celex? A bulge in the interior trim helps increase bed width a little though. 2.5l 4 cyl 168bhp, 289lb ft, 5sp manual, or 168bhp, 324lb ft auto, so there is enough go. I'm told internally its half way (5125mm externally) between VW long (5292) and short (4892) lengthwise. Both the same height outside, both offer similar thin solar panels.
> 
> It has a rotissarie oven, 2 burners, (smaller) compressor fridge, hot and cold at both the sink and tailgate shower, but only heats the water as its needed so no bulky hot tank. (Is there a down side to this?) Plenty of led lights, only the passenger seat swivels but the drivers seat is central to the steering wheel! Only the drivers seat is heated and I think no heated mirrors. USB for IPod though. The fresh and grey are underslung, can be insulated and the small "fishtank" heaters can be fitted. A bigger gas bottle than Bilbos is appealing, and you can have a Gaslow instead. Bilbos has a slightly larger leisure battery.
> 
> The Hyundai is rear wheel drive so would be better for towing, and with no drive gubbins to get in the way at the front the turning circle feels tiny! The floor is possibly higher though, so underbed storage seems less deep, and there is no room between top of window and ceiling for the little cupboards that the VW has.
> 
> The Hyundai still has two big sliding side doors despite one being blanked off by the cupboards etc, so the cupboards can't be as deep as if it was just wall. But, this gives excellant access to the back of everything for fixing if needed, fuses, and draining down. Very good I think.
> 
> So at the moment it seems the Hyundai is really a no brainer, even if I could pay £13000 more for a little more storage in a similar layout, less bhp and no hot water, though maybe the VW is better looking? The 5 year Hyundai unlimited mile warranty with breakdown is matched on the conversion too. Bilbos is 2 years 24,000 miles, VW is 2yr unlimited mile, 3rd year van centre warranty, 3yr breakdown.
> 
> We will go and look at a more normal sized van conversions, and we're looking at a 4x4 dismountable, but the i800 is looking promising!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jason
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shame there is no Auto option as yet for the i800.
Click to expand...

,
or 168bhp, 324lb ft auto  :wink:


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## grizzlyj

*Re: I800*



teemyob said:


> Shame there is no Auto option as yet for the i800.


I know I wrote a lot, but in there somewhere is

"2.5l 4 cyl 168bhp, 289lb ft, 5sp manual, or 168bhp, 324lb ft auto"

The manual is Euro 4, auto is Euro 5 with a lot more torque.


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## 1302

*Re: Pun*



Stanner said:


> 1302 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> someone has to keep VW dealers in the manner to which they have become accustomed.
> 
> 
> 
> Yawn. :roll:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Read my later post about my work experience, or rather my experience at work.
> 
> It wasn't all "sheets of paper", some of it involved a "Royal & Ancient" car and yet more a van normally associated with assisting those "Royal & Ancient" players.
> 
> ...... and believe me it opened my eyes to just how they manage to keep themselves.
> 
> <Edit> to sort out the quotes
Click to expand...

I dont do 'riddles'...

VW's have served us well - we've had 40+ including 2 T4's

Someone asked if T4's/Transporters were good - I told them they were. Thats my opinion. You are welcome to yours - I 'may not' agree with you.


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## Stanner

*Re: Pun*



1302 said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1302 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> someone has to keep VW dealers in the manner to which they have become accustomed.
> 
> 
> 
> Yawn. :roll:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Read my later post about my work experience, or rather my experience at work.
> 
> It wasn't all "sheets of paper", some of it involved a "Royal & Ancient" car and yet more a van normally associated with assisting those "Royal & Ancient" players.
> 
> ...... and believe me it opened my eyes to just how they manage to keep themselves.
> 
> <Edit> to sort out the quotes
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont do 'riddles'...
> 
> VW's have served us well - we've had 40+ including 2 T4's
> 
> Someone asked if T4's/Transporters were good - I told them they were. Thats my opinion. You are welcome to yours - I 'may not' agree with you.
Click to expand...

My turn :roll:


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## 1302

*Re: Pun*



Stanner said:


> 1302 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1302 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> someone has to keep VW dealers in the manner to which they have become accustomed.
> 
> 
> 
> My turn :roll:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> WTF is Royal and Ancient?? and how might it relate to a VW ????
> 
> I'm getting bored...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Stanner

*Re: Pun*



1302 said:


> WTF is Royal and Ancient?? and how might it relate to a VW ????


http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ro...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Any help?


> I'm getting bored...


Ohhh I so know what you mean.....

Driving VAG products for a living had the same effect on me - just no excitement.


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## peejay

Although I don't own one i've always fancied a Bilbos.

Surely VW's can't be that bad >this< couple took one to India and back.

Pete


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## A37

We had a Bilbo's Celeste for six years and loved every minute of it.

It was reliable, cheap to run and wonderfully well built, an absolutely faultless vehicle, we only sold due to a growing family.

The only flaw that I can think of was the engine power, on a motorway it was hard to stay below the limit :lol:

After six years, it took a week to sell, for just under what we had originally paid for it.
I'm sure it'll still be touring in another 20years - can't say that for many vans...

The pic below was taken in 2009, just before we sold it, mileage was 89k.

Full gallery here http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=gallery2&g2_itemId=111074


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## 1302

*Re: Pun*



Stanner said:


> Driving VAG products for a living had the same effect on me - just no excitement.


So a Fiat 'does it' for you then?


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## goldi

Just a point,


Wellhouse claim the I800 to be under 2metres high so good for french motorways tolls.

norm


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## Stanner

*Re: Pun*



1302 said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Driving VAG products for a living had the same effect on me - just no excitement.
> 
> 
> 
> So a Fiat 'does it' for you then?
Click to expand...

................ Or an Alfa or a Lancia :wink:

Or even a (real) Citroen (rather than a "peugeot" one).

I've nothing personal against VAG stuff but you can only take rock hard seats and "uninvolving" driving for so long.

Perhaps it's because they only gave me the bog standard models (and petrol ones at that :? ) to use - but then even the bog standard Fiat/Alfa/Lancias give something back.

As for my remark about the dealers - all true and based on _professional_ experience from as far south as Jersey (excellent service way beyond the call of duty) to as far north as Ft. William where despite knowing who I was and why I was there still didn't manage to get a full score.

I came to loathe 90% of Audi dealers with a vengeance and came to the conclusion that the more they charged - the less they cared.


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## 1302

*Re: Pun*



Stanner said:


> 1302 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Driving VAG products for a living had the same effect on me - just no excitement.
> 
> 
> 
> So a Fiat 'does it' for you then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ................ Or an Alfa or a Lancia :wink:
> I've nothing personal against VAG stuff but you can only take rock hard seats and "uninvolving" driving for so long.
> 
> Perhaps it's because they only gave me the bog standard models (and petrol ones at that :? ) to use - but then even the bog standard Fiat/Alfa/Lancias give something back.
> 
> As for my remark about the dealers - all true and based on _professional_ experience from as far south as Jersey (excellent service way beyond the call of duty) to as far north as Ft. William where despite knowing who I was and why I was there still didn't manage to get a full score.
> 
> I came to loathe 90% of Audi dealers with a vengeance and came to the conclusion that the more they charged - the less they cared.
Click to expand...

I can like a Lancia or an Alfa - but I wouldnt pay for one 

I'm a VW fan as you might have guessed - I love an old Beetle so comfort isnt at the top of the list ...

...dealers - only ever bought twp from a dealer as the rest have been second hand - I agree as they wouldnt do anyone a favour  so even if you dont like the idea we would both agree on that one 

best cars to date include a TT . a new beetle and the wifes current Lupo so you wont convince me that VW / Audi are rubbish 

My 996 is the best car I have ever owned - - but thats not a VW 

We'll agree to disagree if you like


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## Mandale

I do not have anything against VAG vehicles, but dislike the elusions that they are the best vehicle on the road and they never cause any problems. This is simply not the case, most commercial drivers of the new T5 complain about niggles and problems they don’t expect to have on a VW. Perhaps the hype has set the bar a bit high, perhaps like most manufacturers VAG are choosing the cheapest bidder when it comes to electronics or maybe I have just come across the unlucky ones that have problems with their vehicle. 
I can only comment on my own experience, in all the years I have been repairing vehicles I am not aware of any common faults on Toyota vehicles. Toyota vehicles may be underpowered, slow, a bit bland on the interior but if I wanted to cross a desert by myself and with no support, I would choose a Toyota every time. I can’t say I would have the same confidence in any other manufacturer.

Toyota are the only manufacturer who have not yet released a Euro 5 diesel engine into their only commercial van ‘the Hi-ace’, in fact they have actually stopped importing this vehicle into the country for this reason. Surely they didn’t just forget to make the new diesel engine in time for the new legislation? The probability is that they already have the new engine and are doing what they always do, testing it fully so we don’t have to.




Toyota were one of the last manufacturers to resort to the use of ultra high strength light weight steels in the bodywork of their passenger cars. This Is because their vehicle engines already had the capabilities of conforming to the new environmental legislation.
I would expect the new generation of Hi-ace to be a bit special. 

Ps, there is a rumour about a Hi-ace Hybrid vehicle in Japan. A battery powered motorhome, now there’s an idea!


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## trevd01

The rest of the world has had a 'new' Hi Ace since about 2005. I remember Wellhouse importing one a couple of years ago and converting it. This is it:










Very nice it was too.


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## trevd01

Mandale said:


> Ps, there is a rumour about a Hi-ace Hybrid vehicle in Japan. A battery powered motorhome, now there's an idea!


These Toyota Previas/Estimas are hybrid.










I know Wellhouse looked at the possibility of a camper van conversion but could not find a suitable elevating roof that would fit.

Here's one on ebay


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## teemyob

*Toyota*

New Hi Ace


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## grizzlyj

Hi

I read a little about the new Hi Ace converted by Wellhouse while there, it did look good.

I think it had 3 seats in the front, being described as a fab idea for a small family with everyone on the front row. That would mean none swivelled I'd imagine making for a squash around the dinner table? Swings and roundabouts again! 

Edited to add that of course, since it has pretty much no bonnet, that frees up more space in the back, more cupboards etc, which seemed quite obviously bigger than the i800s in the photos.


Having read a little more of the bumf, while the the bed in the i800 felt bigger, the dimensions say narrower and shorter than a Celex. Maybe theres more room outside the mattress in the i800.


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## rod_vw

I'm with '1302' all the way!

We've been into VW now for forty three years, through Beetles 1949, 1964, 1968, Type 2s 1969, 1973, 1977, Type 25 1980, T4s 1994, 1999, 2002, T5s 2006 & 2011 with a 411 & three 412s thrown in for good measure.

All in their own way have been good value for money with the exception of perhaps the 1969 Type 2 which I committed the cardinal sin of buying in the dark!

The T4s & T5s are excellent, no doubt as technology increases DIY maintenance become more difficult but most jobs are possible.

As for being tied into the dealership chain, don't believe it! There are plenty of independent repairers out there just have a look on the T4/T5 Forum http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/

Rod


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## 1302

rod_vw said:


> ... just have a look on the T4/T5 Forum http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/
> 
> Rod


www.volkszone.co.uk and the Just Kampers site are both good for us 'dubbers' Rod


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## jj123vw

FYI Danbury have new model VW T5 conversions for 2012..Starting at under £25k for pre loved low mileage vans with brand new conversions


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## grizzlyj

jj123vw said:


> FYI Danbury have new model VW T5 conversions for 2012..Starting at under £25k for pre loved low mileage vans with brand new conversions


Having just hired an i800 for 5 nights and given it back after one sleepless night on a narrower than expected bed, Danbury will be tomorrow.

The wife and I lying on a Bilbos Celex bed and thinking it may be a bit small, then driving to Wellhouse Leisure near Huddersfield and thinking that bed was wider and comfy were surprised to find a night in the i800 so awkward. Having to drive from Suffolk to Inverness to hire the i800 in the last few days weather, in a hired 107 (arrrggghhhh!), ended up being a good way to waste the time and money because we were almost set on just buying the Hyundai straight off, a slightly bigger loss!

Its slightly odd to be told that for instance the dimensions in the Bilbos blurb is, they say, cushion width, yet the 4' in the Wellhouse blurb was most certainly not the cushion width we had, and debatably not really even a good indication of the free space for you to sleep within. A few more inches would be nice (ahem).

The i800 is a super set up though, and lovely to drive, just not for sprawling sleeping behavior. The ovens good too. The rear seats have three belts but that would have to be kids, and having never camped in a small van like this before, we hadn't thought about relaxing in the evening. The rear seats are like car seats, so 2 with adults sitting as you would while driving they are fine. If I wanted to put my feet up across the bench, one way round my heads on the roof, the other way my back is fully resting on a plastic roller type locker door, neither ideal. Washing up, my head is nudging on the upstairs but hinged out of the way bed base, and I'm only a distinctly tall 5'6".

We need to look at one with a rear bathroom and kitchen in a poptop, two single beds that one can slide over, giving a big bed when down, or a single seat and a sofa, or two single seats (although to get enough bed length the seat base on these is way too long for normal adult legs to be comfy for long. Bilbos Nexa is like this, and the seat type is not their own so I need to find others). This type will have no boot, and even less storage, but after a good nights sleep fewer spare socks is easier to deal with!

Coming from a bigger camper our first thoughts were about if it could work at all, but changing our thinking as if coming from a tent then suddenly its fab within the size it is.


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## SpeedyDux

I just wanted to say that the two of us have never had a bad night's sleep in our T4 Westfalia California in 4 years' use. It's a very well developed conversion. The rock'nroll bed is dead flat; it's also wide and long enough for both of us to find room to move about and turn over without disturbing the other, or getting too warm. We always sleep like logs, even in very hot weather! The mattress which seemed almost too thin and firm at first is suprisingly comfy. There is also a good roof bed for 1 adult or 2 kids, though we normally leave the removable front section at home to give us more headroom when camping. That also frees up some handy storage space on site. 

I think it's difficult to find an elevating roof campervan that ticks all the boxes. The question is which features are must-haves (no oven in ours but we don't need that). Everyone has their own priorities. Originally we looked at converted Bongos including the impressive Wellhouse example, but they were probably too small for us, and the bed too narrow. I also didn't like driving older T3s with a manual gearbox, so binned that idea. 

Converted T4s or T5s are a truly multi-purpose vehicle that can be used for camping trips but only if you are willing to put up with plenty of compromises. That might take getting used to after your bigger motorhome.

If you can live without the auto gearbox, my other suggestion, if Bilbos can't provide what you need on a T5 would be to look at something one size bigger, such as the Westfalia Nugget elevating roof conversion on a Transit. Roy Wood Transits sell them.

SD


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## feeblecat

*Bongo*

Our bongo has never let us down in the 4 years we have had it. Passed every M.O.T and never so much as grumled after lying for weeks at a time in the winter. Last 3 years we have travelled to Europe for our hols in it (see my blog)' this year went to Austria and the Czech Republic.

If we were rich or richer we would perhaps consider another type of campervan, we are not clannish and can see the merits of different other makes and models. However, for value for money we couldnt have done better and I doubt if anyone could get as good a van as ours for what we paid for it- under 12 grand fully converted with awning, tv arial, gas bottles, electric leads and more.


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## grizzlyj

Thanks again for the replies 

My wife really likes a Bongo, but despite for instance Wellhouses super approach with shipping you spares at a moments notice, I don't want an import that leaves me fairly reliant on one firm if I breakdown, especially further afield. And I think the bed is quite narrow?

I don't mind an auto, and Claire needs to pass the test to drive the manual we will probably buy which she'll do. There are a fair few internet stories about the DSG VW box, but equally stories about the dual mass flywheel on manuals. Crystal ball required!

We'd allowed some time today to visit Danbury, and more tomorrow if traffic was bad en route. But they ruled themselves out in an hour  Mucho confusing and contradictory info from the salesman, the only poptop they had outside popped was a brand new Scudo type conversion, the roof lining was sopping, the B pillar was wet behind the driver, the sink had an inch of minty water as it had obviously been leaking for a while. Not good on a demo. Loads of shiny new T2s, one for £47,000!

They also can only accomodate a butane bottle not propane!? The boot lid on the rockandroll but different type bed has holes to receive the headrests, but that means stuff on the bootlid will fall into the boot and forward under the seat if no other stuff stops it. They do have granite worktops, the hob is a decent size, with controls in front, not on top inches from the flame of the other already on burner on the Smevs previously seen, and there are some good touches. The two singles version on a Royale, joining up to a double, isn't yet finished to have a look at, and there isn't much storage under each seat base. A front popping poptop with rear bathroom means on headroom when using the sink. Maybe a side pop would be better?

So tomorrow night we can borrow a Bilbos Celex, and the following night a Nexa, both 140ps, one auto one manual. Borrowing a Danbury is never done, but they sleep in them sometimes and they're fine (!). 

What will be interesting is to go back to Bilbos, which was our first port of call, and instead of thinking its just a bit pricey but fab, will now have many more things to investigate and compare with a more critical eye.

Then CM-C after that.

All well worth doing so far!


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## jazzlover

Hi, when at Bilbo,s ask steve about the lwb Elgan! We purchased a 2011 Bilbo,s Elgan in May and have done over 5000 miles on all types of roads .Absulutely brilliant. 140ps DSG.auto like a car to drive, in fact my wife insists on driving it ,its the only downside !.. Two single beds , cassette toilet, outside cold water shower, sink/3 burner hob, grill, top load 40L fridge, led lights and with LWB 5.4m plenty of storage. Good mpg. We are now in the process of getting it on the road here in Australia, were we live, to do a full circuit of the big brown country.

regards Paul


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## grizzlyj

To any one interested enough to have read any of the above!

Just to kind of conclude my own thread, the answer seems to be there isn't an alternative for us.

There are smaller vans, like the current Hiace and the many Jap imports of varying sizes, Transit connect, Romahome, Scudo sized base etc etc, and normal Transit etc stuff seems all a little bigger. The Merc Viano seems closest but seems more dosh than the already expensive T5, although a lovely V6 makes up for that a little 

The new Hiace may be similar, or end up being so if the cab will have 3 seats, but thats a when and if kind of question.

There is a huge number of VW converters with quite varying details making viewing and even trying essential. Rear hinged pop tops are more breathable so seem to let more breeze through for instance. Bilbos use curtain side material so it won't rot and will let less breeze and rain in, but maybe less condensation out? Some rear hinged roofs have the pivot on the vehicle body, so the pop material is always squashed under this and maybe never dries out? The Reimo roof has a different hinge possibly giving a longer lifespan to that bit of material?

The required ventilation strip as fixed on Wellhouses i800 roof is several inches lower than the fibreglass roof so let some rain in. Others roof vent seemed higher up by an inch or so and maybe were more sheltered?

Even directly asking bed widths sometimes received vague answers. 

We visited Bilbos, both lay on the rock and roll double and felt it may be OK but didn't measure it. We drove the 180 miles and back, hire car and hotel stopover included, to visit Wellhouse, had a good look around, both lay on the bed and found it felt wider, and overal we were so impressed we nearly paid up for the new one sitting there. We held back, and hired one for 5 (for the price of 4) nights, Inverness based Highland Campers being the only hirer. 580 miles each way, 4 nights in a hotel, hire car being cheaper than the train and a lot less hassle than flying from here, proved that we were not correct in thinking the i800 had a wider bed. No sleep on the first night and we took it back, no refunds. A tape measure revealed the bed cushion to be I think 3'7", not quite the unfortunate misprint in the brochure saying a 4' bed. An excellent conversion for one, or perhaps two immobile sleepers!

Cheaper than having bought one anyway, and gave us a free week with a hire car so we drove south and visited some more converters.

The result of which is we like Bilbos T5 Nexa, with a second leisure battery and double convertability, not quite the alternative the thread was looking for!

But, next week we visit the dismountable manufacturer Alaskan who could make something smaller to fit on our current base vehicle, and put our camper box up for sale for fitting to another similar chassis, two hoses, a few wires, ten bolts, 3 fork lifts and maybe 6 blokes for an afternoon to fit. Honest. The dismountable could in theory be dismounted, but it wouldn't be in reality. Its just a hard sided pop top that from a lot of looking no-one else seems to make without spending a lot of cash.

This would give us a very capable off road truck at around 7.5 tons rather than the current 9 and a bit, shorter and lower, similar storage but with less living space, but still maybe 10mpg. So occasional use only, with a view to a big trip in a few years time, and requiring a car as well for daily use for my wife. I've spent a lot on this chassis that I won't get back if I do sell, and if we get the chance of a big trip in the future I'll have to spend the same again. And we like it, impractical as it is for the Tescos run  And neither the CC or the C&C clubs sites, nor anyone else, have ever suggested we are too big or heavy, always welcome so far 

I could buy an older so cheaper VW, but apart from a syncro high roof T3 they don't really appeal, and even then not as much as what we have now. A new posh poptop T5 is very appealing, we won't then require a car as well for my wife, but has many compromises for us when camped and doesn't inspire as our Moglet now does. Future big trip or not it still makes us and many others smile.

The dismountable seems an ideal move in altering our current wheels, a T5 seems ideal if we want new wheels. Next weeks visit I really really hope will reveal all!!!

Cheers for the input folks 

Jason


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## SpeedyDux

Jason,

Never had a problem with water leaks when our rear-hinged Westy roof is up in rainy weather, even during thunderstorms, and the canvas still has no sign of mildew after almost 10 years. It's a well developed simple elevating roof design that seems to work. 

Just a thought - did you look at the demountable range that Bimobil.de has to offer? I don't think they have a UK distributor but I saw them at the NEC in October 2010 and was impressed. If you have enough budget this might be worth considering. 

SD


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