# no marker board - fined in Portugal!



## provencal (Nov 5, 2008)

Have been fined €120 on a deserted road in Portugal today for not having a board on the back. No question about it, the copper said it was European wide law and necessary in all countries. Very apologetic but just doing his job. He asked what I thought about Portugal and I said the food was good and the people friendly, except for the police. 

Any thoughts about challenging this fine would be welcome.

Managed to avoid motorways but with a 50% increase in distance at times. Some roads are in a very bad state and all effort is directed at producing more unused toll roads.

Hoping for a better day tomorrow,
Brian




site admin note - split out from old thread about UK situation


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Well thats news Brian. Sounds a bit iffy to me. I would definitely be looking into appealing that on. Was it an on the spot fine and did you get a proper receipt and paper work?


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Google N332 rear overhang and get it straight from the Spainish Police FB site...

Singal V-20
When an object overhangs from the back of the car, you have to display the signal V-20; a red and white striped reflective warning square on the back of the vehicle.
Regarding bycicles can not overhang any side of the car. But in this case we make an exception if it does not overhang a lot.
On the first photo you can see 2 posibilities:
1. When the bicycle does not hide the headlights of the car, you only need to put the signal V-20. You can use 1 or 2 signals.
2.When the bicycle hides headlights and plate you will have to use extra ligths/registration plate number.
On the second photo, you can see another examples for taking things. Remember to use signal V-20 to take somethig on the back of he car.
In cars the object only can overhang in the back side, and the maximum rear overhang is a 10% when the object can be divided in 2 parts, and 15% when is an indivisible object.
(Read other traffic matters on our Facebook Page: "N332", please share this information.)


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

dghr272 said:


> Google N332 rear overhang and get it straight from the Spainish Police FB site...
> 
> Singal V-20
> When an object overhangs from the back of the car, you have to display the signal V-20; a red and white striped reflective warning square on the back of the vehicle.
> ...


The OP was in Portugal. Keep up!!


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Yeah but see post 16, that twit said he read it wasn't needed in Spain.
Bloody Fruitcake eejit IMHO. He needs to keep up.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

dghr272 said:


> Yeah but see post 16, that twit said he read it wasn't needed in Spain.
> Bloody Fruitcake eejit IMHO. He needs to keep up.


What post 16? Has someone split the threads? WTF is going on?


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Only ever aware it was a requirement in Spain, never heard of any issue in Portugal. 

Keep the fine receipt ( you did get one didn't you?) When you get back to the UK do a bit of research to make sure it wasn't an offence, then write to the Portugese Embassy. Don't bother with the Foreign Office, they won't be interested.


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## MHFAdmin (Jun 21, 2007)

Barry - we split the new posts out from the original thread, which was about marker boards in the UK...


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

That is news to me too, it is certainly NOT EC wide Law - it does not apply in the UK for a start and neither does it in France, AFAIK and from everyone else that has ever reported it the ONLY countries that REQUIRE it are Italy and Spain......

It would be good to see if anyone else has encountered the same thing.....

and certainly I would suggest the OP does some serious asking for the legal support for such a fine.......

Dave

For clarity sake could MHF Admin insert a link to the stated post no. 16 please ? At present this thread has as much clarity as tomato soup......

It appears that Portugal DOES require one if this store is to be believed;

http://www.cuksigns.co.uk/catalogzc1/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1490

There was also a thread which Grath contributed to stating similar in 2008....... obviously we have all overlooked it.....


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

I assume that a rack fitted with a trailer board is OK without the warning board. Anyone know?

Dick


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Glandwr said:


> I assume that a rack fitted with a trailer board is OK without the warning board. Anyone know?
> 
> Dick


No I dont think you need one.

Thanks Admin for clearing that up, thought I was going bonkers.


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

My board is permanently attached to my bike rack whether its in use or not.


tony


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

barryd said:


> What post 16? Has someone split the threads? WTF is going on?


PSA for post 16

And yes a signal board is needed in Spain, even with a trailer board per N332 as posted.

Bonkers mmmmmm yeah


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

I seem to remember that a marker board is NOT compulsory in Portugal, but you are not allowed to have anything on the rear that extends beyond 45cm . Now if only I could find the details of that............:serious:


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## Webby1 (Mar 11, 2012)

Sorry about the €120.......................that's pretty steep. But as far as I know they are needed in Spain and Portugal

We debated whether to get the aluminium one needed for Italy..........got one then didn't need to think twice.

In the event of an accident the insurance company may suggest that you were not actually legal at the time.

We have a lighting/numberplate board at the back and I suppose it is not technically an "overhang" BUT I don't know how 

to explain in the appropriate language that my understanding of the law is better than the policemans .......AND I'm not 

sure I can be bothered 

Surely the answer is to just carry a board.................which probably makes good practice anyway.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Its about time stuff like this was standardised across the EU. Its almost like we are just guessing half the time. I really didnt think I needed a marker board for anywhere as the last thing at the back of my motorhome is a bolted on trailer board with lights and everything on but now it seems you still need one for Spain. Not that I go into Spain very much.


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

bognormike said:


> I seem to remember that a marker board is NOT compulsory in Portugal, but you are not allowed to have anything on the rear that extends beyond 45cm . Now if only I could find the details of that............:serious:


Might have been this post Mike...

http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/20...9-bike-carrier-warning-sign-2.html#post988300

*"Portuguese regulations stipulate that bicycles may not be carried at the rear of a car, but they can be carried at the rear of a motorhome or caravan, provided that they do not extend beyond the width of the vehicle or more than 45cm beyond its length."*

No links in that post to back it up though.

Unlucky Brian, a grovelling letter might get you a refund maybe?

Pete


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## rotorywing (Jul 19, 2010)

*"Portuguese regulations stipulate that bicycles may not be carried at the rear of a car, but they can be carried at the rear of a motorhome or caravan, provided that they do not extend beyond the width of the vehicle or more than 45cm beyond its length."*

45cm (18") is not a lot, the average forearm is 18". Most bike racks I've seen protrude further than that !!


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Check Potugese government website and their tourist websites, including tourist info from Portugese Embassy

If the law is not promulgated, or only in Portugese, you could take the line that, although you understand that ignorance of the law is no excuse, you had searched in these places and found nothing, or nothing in English, and therefore you were not warned of the requirement. 

That if they wish visitors to come to their coutry and spend money they should make it clear how to comply and not fine them because of unavoidable ignorance. Copy of course to Portugese Tourist Board.

Geoff


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

peejay said:


> Might have been this post Mike...
> 
> http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/20...9-bike-carrier-warning-sign-2.html#post988300
> 
> ...


that's it, I found it in a Caravan club summary of legal requrirements

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/overse...lsory-requirements/general-legal-requirements


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

I'm probably wrong but the way I read that is, bikes can be carried so long as they don't extend more than 45cm beyond the rear of the van, no mention of making greater distances acceptable with signs.


Hopefully that is not correct, will try some research of my own as we will definitely be going back to Spain and Portugal early next year, our new van does not have a garage so bikes will need to be on rack on back (if we take them).


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## DBSS (Jun 30, 2013)

120 Euros seems a tad steep to me, hope you got a receipt. Last year I was unfortunate enough to get nabbed just outside Madrid en route to Portugal but got away with a 60 Euro fine as long as I purchased a hazard board at the next motorway services. Which of course I did and definitely glad I did. About another 30kms down the route another UK MH was sat on the hard shoulder with same motorbike coppers as we passed he nodded and a few mins later caught up with me and 'thumbs up' as he passed me.!!

Ian


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## The-Cookies (Nov 28, 2010)

why risk it , for a few quid, plus all the hassle if you get stopped.


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## Littlebt (May 19, 2012)

Interestingly I read that any vehicle inc vehicle/trailer over 12m in length also needs the board!
I am over that with the trailer though I've never been pulled over.


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Littlebt said:


> Interestingly I read that any vehicle inc vehicle/trailer over 12m in length also needs the board!
> I am over that with the trailer though I've never been pulled over.


Pushing your luck :surprise:

tony


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

We are also well over that length. I don't see trucks with those boards on them, Alan.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Quite right Alan, the square signal board is not required, although Goods Vehicles have a vast range of requirements re reflective boards.

In my working days the roadside VOSA checks on my lorry fleet included checking requirements were being complied with in this area.

Although our dispensation to run without Tachos usually was the main talking point for the newer inspectors.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...cuity-marking-requirements-goods-vehicles.pdf

Terry


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I'd like to hear your tacho story one day Tel.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

I posted this on the other similar thread about being fined in Portugal;

_


provencal said:



We were stopped yesterday because I wasn't displaying the board with diagonal stripes and fined

€120 on the spot, on a country road. I always use the board in Italy and Spain because I know it

is required by the authorities, but in Portugal have never bothered because it had seemed such a

tourist friendly country.

Now I know better and Brits are the main targets because the police speak English. According to

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/t...ic-police-in-Portugal-targeting-tourists.html
and http://algarvedailynews.com/news/4900-motorists-contribute-96-more-in-traffic-fines
it is government policy.

Will you want to go again?

Brian

Click to expand...

Brian, as I said on the other thread I was not aware of that requirement for the chevron board for Portugal but am aware that it is a requirement for Spain (plastic or metal) and Italy (must be totally reflective i.e. the metal one only), but if you had bikes on the back, presumably you had them on the back while driving through Spain.

So why did you remove them at the border? I am not being awkward but am simply aware that if I start the journey with the board up, it stays there for the whole journey - France - Spain - France, I would not think of putting g it on at a convenient place near the French/Spanish border - partly because I am not 100% sure where that is now.....

The fine was harsh IMO and I may not wish to revisit the country after being treated like that, but I would be thinking that PERHAPS my actions contributed towards the fine.....

In the same way I would be adopting the advice given to Orange22 above re the fine for parking in the wrong place; I would be sending a letter and attempting to pay the fine a.s.a.p. - unlike the very many UK drivers caught speeding in France who simply do not, or the very many French drivers in the UK who also are caught speeding but never pay up......

The old adage about the cap fitting may be relevant, you did not have a warning board up, the OP on this thread was moved on, he may not have been aware of the restrictions there but he was there......

Dave_

The _italics_ indicates the post copied from the other thread

The reference to orange 22 relates to him being fined after he left by the Portuguese authorities for stopping in the wrong place and can be found here;

orange22 post about being fined

These two threads are obviously similar but in no way should they detract from the welcome that you will receive in Portugal and the superb experiences you will have there - it has been reported widely as being very spectacular with excellent food, wine and people - please do not let two people's experiences stop you visiting.

But perhaps what is happening in the UK in certain parts of the country with the erection of barriers and signs shows the same thing - which is what happens when a small number of people exploit the welcome that they receive.......

Dave


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## provencal (Nov 5, 2008)

Hi Dave, Dave and others,

Thanks for your replies, I am having trouble seeing posts and thought the original one was lost, so reposted. All I get in New Posts is birthdays and My Posts hasn't updated for months.

We drove through Spain and not using the bikes, had the board on the back. We are still in Portugal, so I need to be careful what I say, and have wild-camped in some amazing places. 

Getting a bike off takes twice as long if the board is fitted, so thinking that the board was not obligatory, I didn't fit it, between using the bikes. Mine is the first instance I know of where the law has been invoked.

With regard to the severity of the fine, it seems unjust that, if it is a European wide law, individual countries should be able to determine widely different penalties, according to their fiscal debt. There is confusion egarding where traffic laws are applied across the EU and I would be interested to know of definitive information on the subject.

I am not trying to discourage people from visiting Portugal but I think it is happening anyway because of their intolerant attitude towards people wanting to visit the country. The confusing toll system, bad road conditions and now what Orange22 indicates to be the end of wildcamping, without the risk of subsequent prosecution, will affect my decision on whether to come back.

Brian

PS Just had a superb meal and definitiely want to come back.


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Brian - it sounds like you're still using the old front page as your starting point -

Use the active topics

http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/portal.php?page=active_topics
Or new posts

http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/search.php?searchid=1035370
As your bookmark


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

provencal said:


> Hi Dave, Dave and others,
> I am not trying to discourage people from visiting Portugal but I think it is happening anyway because of their intolerant attitude towards people wanting to visit the country. The confusing toll system, bad road conditions and now what Orange22 indicates to be the end of wildcamping, without the risk of subsequent prosecution, will affect my decision on whether to come back.
> 
> Brian.


Strange in the thread started by Orange22 you ask "Will you want to go again?"

Having wintered in Portugal the last 3 years I can understand the authorities taking a firm stance with motorhomes in general and if they can help their fiscal deficit along the way :wink2: 
I'm not suggesting that you or Orange22 set out to break the law or push the boundaries but there are thousands of vans seriously taking the p**s each year we have visited. Overstaying their welcome, staying where it is signed as forbidden and stealing water and disposing of waste in ways most would not. 
A classic example is Silves the area welcomes with open arms motorhomes but do try to control them, each year we have visited we've witnessed blatant disregard for the rules and then the guilty complain of being hard done by or picked upon.

I do not believe they are trying to stop free camping just stop it getting out of hand and being taken advantage of, there are untold sanctioned free areas to choose from.

Yes the toll road system can be confusing but if you research the correct way to use them, or indeed follow the instructions at the entry point of most of the major border crossings, there will be no confusion.
Yes some of the free roads are in very poor condition but what can you expect of a financially crippled country, I hear that many UK roads give cause for concern nowadays.

For my money it is still a friendly welcoming place to visit, plenty of free or very reasonably priced places to stay and if you comply with the rules and laws you will not be fined for wrong doing.

.

.


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## provencal (Nov 5, 2008)

Thanks Mike for the links. I am surprised I was not redirected.

John,
I thought my response to Orange22, in which I questioned his likelihood of anyone wanting to return after being fined for stopping where there were no warning signs, was reasonable.

Due to the idiosynchrosies of the site I seem to have started this thread without realising it and think admin may have been involved in a tidying exercise causing some confusion.

I agree about following the rules and would wish to do so. The problem is that the rules are so inaccessible and goalposts frequently move. 

Thanks for your interesting comments,
Brian


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