# Taking Legal Action ref New Motorhome



## johnc (May 1, 2005)

I am planing to take legal action to recover some of the costs I have incurred in getting my 2007 new style Peugeot Motorhome to a fit state following all of the problems which have beset these vehicles. I have drafted the following letter advising the Dealer and the Finance Company of my claim. I know is a bit long winded but I would appreciate any advice

Regards
John C



To 
ABC Caravan Company
&
XYZ Finance Finance (Ac/No: 505860137)

12 December 2008

Gentlemen 

Peugeot Motorhome AA07 ZZZ

I refer to the above motorhome purchased from ABC Caravans for £27,165 in March 2007 with a HP loan of £15,000 through XYZ Finance .

As both your organisations are aware, the quality of this vehicle has left much to be desired in terms of the motorhome habitation area and the latent defects within the design of the Peugeot base vehicle which is actually built by Fiat. I do not propose to list all of the problems in this letter but sufficient to say that even after 20 months ownership, I am still waiting on a final solution to the judder problem. 

As far as ABC Caravans are concerned I have no real complaint with all of the warranty work you have carried out in the habitation area other than some of the initial faults which we reported to your Sales Manager, were not rectified when we collected the van. I must say however that I am less satisfied with the reaction to my complaints about the base vehicle. You have previously stated “the rust on the engine and the water ingress was only cosmetic” that “the judder is simply a characteristic of the vehicle” and that “I was the only person to complain about these faults“ For your information, there are literally hundred of dissatisfied owner of Peugeot and Fiat based Motorhomes who have had to battle to get the water ingress problem solve and are now waiting to have new gearboxes fitted. 

My opinion of XYZ Finance is less complimentary in that you have consistently found in favour of the Motorhome vendor taking his opinion on the base vehicle regarding the rust and the judder. I should point out that ABC Caravans are a Caravan dealer not a main Peugeot franchised garage. When they stated in reply to my complaint about the van juddering in reverse that it was simply a characteristic of the vehicle, you, “XYZ Finance ” accepted ABC’s opinion and closed my complaint leaving me to argue the case with Peugeot. 

For your information, I now have documentation from Peugeot advising that the rectification work on the judder will be carried out in January 2009 which may include a new gearbox, new flywheel and an uprated clutch. Hardly something that would be carried out to cure a “characteristic of the vehicle”

One of the reasons I took out a XYZ Finance loan at 7.9% APR in April 2007 was to obtain protection under the “Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Act 1973” as I had been warned that the purchase of a NEW motorhome could be problematic due to quality issues. In hindsight I would have been better off paying cash and used the money I had saved to employ a lawyer 

Leaving my general dissatisfaction for now, I must now turn to the costs I have incurred in trying to get my new Motorhome to be “Fit for Purpose” “of Merchantable Quality” and “Free from Latent Defects” 

Under the Sales of Goods Act and the provisions of the Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Act 1973 (as amended) I am holding ABC Caravan Company and XYZ Finance Finance “jointly and several” responsible for all costs I have incurred.

These cost are based on the following..

Days	Van	Car	Total
1st return trip in Motorhome ABC Caravans to demonstrate all of the initial faults 
2nd trip to ABC Caravans have initial faults rectified 
3rd trip to ABC Caravans to have further faults rectified	
4th trip to ABC Caravans to have leaks on habitation area fixed	
1st trip to 1st Peugeot Dealer in XXX to have engine cover water leak inspected	
2nd trip to 1st Peugeot Dealer in ZZZ to have water leak fixed.	
1st trip to Peugeot Main Dealer to have failed leak repair inspected	12nd trip to Peugeot Main Dealer to have water leak fixed for second time and all other rectification work on engine carried out. 
3rd trip to Peugeot Main Dealer to have faulty springs inspected 
4th trip to Peugeot Main Dealer to have faulty springs replaced	
5th trip to Peugeot Main Dealer to have gearbox and clutch inspected for judder.	
6th trip to Peugeot Main Dealer to have software fault update	
7th trip to Peugeot Main Dealer to have further software fault download 
Total Mileage for car and motorhome	2650
Total days off the road 42 
Total hours driving time 50

The total cost I am claiming “Jointly and Several” based on the above is £2750 between your two organisations. I look forward to your offer of settlement in the above matter,


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

John,

The letter is great, but I would advise that you have it checked and proof read as there are several spelling and grammar errors.
Always find that a letter to an organisation needs to be absolutely correct, even though their reply often is not.
Gerry


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## oilslick (Oct 3, 2007)

*Iwould...*

I would give them a time limit to settle, perhaps 2 weeks, and inform them that you will start county court procedings after that time, and do it!

Firstly it stops it dragging out and secondly it elevates your seriousness to them.

I have taken a lot of people and companies to court and have always won. I generally know when I am in the right! Often I have won before even getting to court, they simply do not want the cost of attending and subsequent bad publicity it can cause, (and know they will loose?)

Judges tend to be very fair, and can certainly understand things from the claimants point of view. They also support costs incured for time. I have always worked out the time some problem has taken and bill it at £20 an hour in my costs. Afterall thats what I charge to do work. One case against Severn Trent which stemed from their inability to correct an error in a bill (which was in the order of pounds - but it is the principle that matters) ended up costing them over £300.

Be sure you document every single thing and remember you must submit ALL evidence up front for scrutiny. You cant bring some pieceof evidence along on the day.

One thing I would say is I think you should show how you arrive at the cost you claim:-

40 hours at £20 an hour = £800
100 miles at 46p a mile = £46
etc
etc

Anyway Good luck!


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

With whom is your contract? Sue them. Without Googling I am unclear on HP arrangements, but I'd avoid going jointly against both organisations unless you are absolutely sure of your ground.

Dave


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

One point on your description of the Peugeot base vehicle "built by Fiat", it's actually made by SEVEL, a company jointly owned by PSA (Peugeot / Citroen) and Fiat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevel_Van


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## xgx (Oct 14, 2005)

the sentence 'As far as ABC Caravans are concerned I have no real complaint with...'

I would re-phrase it; aim for clarity and stick to the bare bone specific facts of your complaint/claim. Remember, you're claiming for what they haven't done plus costs, anything else is irrelevant at this stage ...keep it simple and very formal.

Consider whether the financial ombudsman may be able to help in regard to the finance company...

Good luck!


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Problems*

Hi

I agree with Dave - just sue the party providing the contract, but I am not a legal expert etc, so would suggest that you take some legal advice before marching on.

Russell


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## christopherobin (Mar 26, 2007)

John

You must address your letter to the "company sec" he/she is the person
legally responsible and the one you must serve any court letters etc to.

Good Luck

Chris :wink:


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## lafree (Dec 31, 2007)

Hi, In your list of defects are springs replaced rear leaf springs if so what was the problem with them ?.
Lafree.


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## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

I agree that you ought to get proper legal advice before you do anything. Writing a letter before claim to the supplying dealer is an essential step, but it will probably be more effective if it comes from a Solicitor. 

If your letter doesn't produce the desired result, then what? I know the Small Claims jurisduction up to £5,000 in the County Court is meant to be available for litigants in person (and there is considerable protection against the risk of paying the Defendant's legal costs if you lose) but a claim involving a defective new motorhome is going to be quite complicated, both legally and technically. You need to know what you are doing. You only get one bite at the cherry, so if you do issue a County Court claim and it is dismissed on a legal technicality you can't simply redraft it and then try again.


SD


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

Don't need to address to Co Sectretary, but when you issue you must serve at the Registered Office

The liability is each of them and you are correct it is joint and several

Yes get proof read

Yes impose a reasonable deadline for acceptance and reply

You must justify your figures, not just pull out of the air so many miles at so many pence per mile. You cannot claim for your own time unless you lost an equivalent sum in wages or something else as a result.

Do keep it long, its good, someone new may be reading it. A letter befiore actionshould set out exactly what your case is. The judge will read it

Delete this, it is irrelevant, _One of the reasons I took out a XYZ Finance loan at 7.9% APR in April 2007 was to obtain protection under the "Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Act 1973" as I had been warned that the purchase of a NEW motorhome could be problematic due to quality issues. In hindsight I would have been better off paying cash and used the money I had saved to employ a lawyer _You had that protection against the dealer any way

Delete the reference to Fit for purpose. It was ad is otherwise you would have returned it. You struggled on and are deemed to have accepted it. Your claim is for reimbursement of your out of pocket expenses in travelling too and fro to have it made free of defects, free of latent defects and of merchantable quality. Add on time for the clutch replacement.

Finally as a bargaining counter you have suffered loss of enjoyment in respect of use. 42 days. Try asking for £50 a day


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## Kelcat (Apr 20, 2008)

John, 
Whilst I know that several members on here are from the legal profession - unless they're prepared to actually put their 'name' to it, I'd be loath to proceed on opinion & hearsay. The occassional work I do with the Ombudsman sees so many cases refused for really minor technicalities that I'd always advice getting a solicitor to check it through. 
Good luck however you choose to proceed.


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## johnc (May 1, 2005)

johnc said:


> I am planing to take legal action to recover some of the costs I have incurred in getting my 2007 new style Peugeot Motorhome to a fit state following all of the problems which have beset these vehicles. I have drafted the following letter advising the Dealer and the Finance Company of my claim. I know is a bit long winded but I would appreciate any advice
> 
> Regards
> John C
> ...


Sincere thanks to all who have posted replies. One of the many points I will be taking up is to send the claim through our Lawyer. One point I have found is that the HP company is the one I should go after as it is their responsibility that the product is of merchantable quality etc hence the Jointly and Several
Regards

John C


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## johnc (May 1, 2005)

lafree said:


> Hi, In your list of defects are springs replaced rear leaf springs if so what was the problem with them ?.
> Lafree.


The rear springs clanked and creaked to such an extent, I thought a wheel was coming loose. The sprngs were replaced under warranty with single leaf type.

Regards

John C


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"THE one I should go for"

"hence Jointly and Several"

This is why I would never have made a good lawyer. I think their use of the English language is designed to obfuscate rather than clarify! They argue that it is needed to be unambiguous but I still don't get it! :-(

Dave


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## 111948 (May 6, 2008)

At the top of the letter start with "Without Prejudice" .

This will ensure that this letter can't be produced in court as evidence, this is especially helpful if you have incriminated yourself at all.

Don't admit to having nil problems with anyone, stick to facts and not opinions.

Regards


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## Ecosse (Feb 6, 2006)

John....Best of luck with your claim. It is important that you send the letters with registered mail.

Mike


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

No need for registerd letter or proof of delivery

You must not send it without prejudice. It is a letter before action, it sets out your case. It must be open

If you start to negotiate and you write to say if you do this I will accept that, then do it without prejudice


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## suffolkian (Jul 25, 2007)

You mention that you will submit your claim through your lawyer, you would best advised to give them the facts and let them make your case. They should know the correct procedure to follow, and avoid any technical pitfalls.


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## robrace (Jun 30, 2005)

*court action*

Good luck with your claim!You should be aware that if you do take Court action that even if you win you may not get any recompense.We took a dealer to Court and won!He was ordered to pay us £11500 but we have never had anything.We sent the bailiffs in but that was a waste of money and time.We then obtained a charge on his half of the property that he and his wife owned.But the Land registry say that it is'nt worth the paper it's written on.So two years later,7 Court visits,and charging orders we are no better off.But I would still take the same action.I agree with comments already made !Make sure that you have all the documents to prove all your evidence.


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## time-traveller (Apr 23, 2007)

Based on your letter I think you're wasting your time.
Clutch judder apart - which they're going to fix anyway - everything appears to have been fixed under the terms of warranty - that's what warranties are for. Remember, solicitors cost serious money and if you lose your proposed court action, you'll have to pick up EVERYONE'S tab - and that WILL make your eyes water! If it was me I'd just get on with my life and enjoy my motorhome.



johnc said:


> I am planing to take legal action to recover some of the costs I have incurred in getting my 2007 new style Peugeot Motorhome to a fit state following all of the problems which have beset these vehicles. I have drafted the following letter advising the Dealer and the Finance Company of my claim. I know is a bit long winded but I would appreciate any advice
> 
> Regards
> John C
> ...


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## 118856 (Dec 18, 2008)

*legal action*

i agree with time traveller.
youve left it too late to reject the van, it can be argued that the faults have been tried to fix, and that they are still trying to fix the problems.
if i had one othese fiats with clutch judder, i wouldn't be reversing up any hills.
just use a bit of nonse and drive up hills and reverse down them, should work in 99% of situations.
and wait till there is a fix on the problem

live long and prosper   :twisted:


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## johnc (May 1, 2005)

*Re: legal action*



rollerbev said:


> i agree with time traveller.
> youve left it too late to reject the van, it can be argued that the faults have been tried to fix, and that they are still trying to fix the problems.
> if i had one othese fiats with clutch judder, i wouldn't be reversing up any hills.
> just use a bit of nonse and drive up hills and reverse down them, should work in 99% of situations.
> ...


I think some folk are missing the point. I am not rejecting the van. I am claiming under the sale of goods act for costs and lack of use I have suffered due to all of the problems with the van.

As for using "a bit of nonse" I do not choose to reverse but when in the Western Isles or the highlands and meeting another vehicle, sometimes there is no choice.


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## 118856 (Dec 18, 2008)

hi
i still think your on a hiding to nothing, you should be trying to enjoy your motorhome.
youv'e answered your own question, what are you doing up a single track road in a motorhome which can't reverse properly uphill.
if you plan ahead you can get round the problem.

live long and prosper   :twisted:


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## carolgavin (May 9, 2005)

rollerbev said:


> if you plan ahead you can get round the problem.
> 
> live long and prosper   :twisted:


I might also be missing the point but surely you should be able to jump into your motorhome and not have to engage your psychic powers to prevent a situation where you may have to reverse up a flippin hill!!!!
Also I was led to believe by my wonderful lawyer (that aint sarcasm I love my lawyer he is great great great   ) that getting things fixed under warranty should not be pecuniary.
Good luck John hunny, want the name of good lawyer in Glasgow?????


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

> i still think your on a hiding to nothing, you should be trying to enjoy your motorhome.
> youv'e answered your own question, what are you doing up a single track road in a motorhome which can't reverse properly uphill. [/quote
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> ...


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## viator (May 1, 2007)

rollerbev said:


> hi
> i still think your on a hiding to nothing, you should be trying to enjoy your motorhome.
> youv'e answered your own question, what are you doing up a single track road in a motorhome which can't reverse properly uphill.
> if you plan ahead you can get round the problem.
> ...


How the hell can johnc enjoy his motorhome if he is restricted as to where he can travel and reference your previous post, if you had a juddery Fiat you wouldn't be reversing up hills, you would drive up and reverse down using a bit of 'nonse' is that short for nonsense.
viator


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## 118856 (Dec 18, 2008)

*reversing uphill*

your all still missing the point,
if you have a problem you work round it.
nobody is saying that the fiat has no problem with reversing up a hill.
but if you plan ahead you can get round it.
but perhaps that is beyond your capabilities, and i can't do anything about that.
i said in my original post that you work round it till a fix is available.
but from what i see most of the negative comments are from north of the border.
perhaps your all crap drivers up there.
for the guy who lives on a single track road, perhaps you can turn your motorhome round where you live up this road.
you want to try reversing a double decker bus up a hill with a juddery clutch and crash gearbox.
perhaps i may be silly and stupid but i didn't buy a fiat with a juddery clutch.
i had a 2.8 jtd that had a tendancy to judder when going uphill when cold, but i worked round that.
the original post i said you can work round the problem 99% of the time.
i suggest you take some driving lessons or learn to plan your journeys properly.
i have no axe to grind as regards to fiats i have owned their cars for the past 25 years.

live long and prosper   :lol:

(Mod Note. The contents of this post breaks forum rules a number of times, not to say general politeness and forum etiquette.

The member is new to the forum, but that IMO is no excuse for such offensive comments, so he (or she) has been banned from further involvement on this forum.

This post will be discussed by the Moderating Team, and further action taken if deemed necessary.)


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

> i suggest you take some driving lessons


Now where have I heard that before?

Don't work for Fiat do you by any chance......"Driver technique.....vehicle

characteristics........." ?? :lol:

Pay your tenner, subscribe, do a "Search" and look at ALL the judder Posts!


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## patnles (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: legal action*



rollerbev said:


> but from what i see most of the negative comments are from north of the border.
> perhaps your all crap drivers up there


Or could it just be that a huge percentage of single track roads are north of the border and for some it is necessary to use them to get from A to B.
Planning a journey in parts of Scotland, avoiding single tracks, would just be darn nigh impossible without a helicopter. Instead you lot north of the border should avoids hills :lol: just in case.

No advice johnc, but I wish you well with your action.
Lesley


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## 96299 (Sep 15, 2005)

*Re: reversing uphill*



rollerbev said:


> your all still missing the point,
> if you have a problem you work round it.
> nobody is saying that the fiat has no problem with reversing up a hill.
> but if you plan ahead you can get round it.
> ...


Gotta be a wind up innit. :lol: There cant be anyone really like that out there-can there 8O

steve


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## johnc (May 1, 2005)

*Re: reversing uphill*



rollerbev said:


> your all still missing the point,
> if you have a problem you work round it.
> nobody is saying that the fiat has no problem with reversing up a hill.
> but if you plan ahead you can get round it.
> ...


I find your comments offensive, unnecessary and unproductive. I was looking for advice from my fellow owners not a torrent of abuse.


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Cool down guys!

Remember that as a rule of thumb the validity of a post is in inverse proportion to the literacy of it.

_Nonce_ = for the time being or present.

Should have been: _Nous_ = common sense.

We pedants could have had a field day, but we held off.

Nowt else to it really!


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## Kelcat (Apr 20, 2008)

Rollerbev just sounds lovely :roll: Really well thought out & helpful advice. 

Nonce means something completely different where I come from (Phoenix Nights fans would know) - but still not applicable.


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## johnc (May 1, 2005)

Kelcat said:


> Rollerbev just sounds lovely :roll: Really well thought out & helpful advice.
> 
> Nonce means something completely different where I come from (Phoenix Nights fans would know) - but still not applicable.


I always thought the word was "nouse" but then I am not that clever being North of the Border.


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

After a report by a member, certain posts from this evening have been removed for discussion / action. PLEASE if any posts are offensive etc, report them using the report button, do not inflame things by putting on further posts which may also be offensive, and make the situation worse. 

AS a matter of interest, Rollerbev seems to be "trolling", has signed up to multiple MHF accounts, and both accounts have been de-activated.

Now can I get back to the dancing?
:wink: :roll: 

Bognormike 
Mods team


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

> Now can I get back to the dancing?
> Wink Rolling Eyes


 :lol: :lol: Tom'll get it-popular vote but not the better dancer! :lol:

PS-I eat my words- that last dance of his was ......brilliant!!


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

Tom is tops


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Yes, but can we stay on topic!! :roll: 


do the dancing elswhere!!


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## Autoquest (May 16, 2007)

It was a fix - Tom would have been voted off by the judges last week and Rachael would have won this week. Rigged I tell you.

Oh and good luck with your claim Johnc - I have a few mods for the 115 which I shall PM you when they are complete


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## johnc (May 1, 2005)

johnc said:


> I am planing to take legal action to recover some of the costs I have incurred in getting my 2007 new style Peugeot Motorhome to a fit state following all of the problems which have beset these vehicles. I have drafted the following letter advising the Dealer and the Finance Company of my claim. I know is a bit long winded but I would appreciate any advice
> 
> Regards
> John C
> ...


Well, the die is cast, letters went off by recorded delivery to the Dealer and the Finance Company 3rd January. Have checked with Royal Mail and the letters were received. Have given the two respondents until the 19th January to reply otherwise it off to litigation we go by way of the Small Claims Court.

Many thanks to all who advised on the topic. Will keep you posted unless I have to sign a confidentially agreement to get a settlement.

Happy days.

Regard

John C


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## Autoquest (May 16, 2007)

Best of luck John.


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## carolgavin (May 9, 2005)

Good luck John!!


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## 1happy (Jun 15, 2005)

Hi John
Good luck from me too 8)


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## 105109 (Jun 11, 2007)

*lawyers letter*

Best of luck and for sharing this will all the rest of the Motorhome Facts Forum


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Thank you for posting this, we all hope we never end up HAVING to take the same route for similar problems but the expereince you have been willing to share wth us all will benefit us all for the future.

I have only once been involved in litigation as a victim of some stupid behavious by a manager of a petrol station who had washed off (not) a spillage of diesel fro the forecourt. Having beckoned me forward (in a Peugeot 505 + 20' caravan behind, I discovered how poorly it had been cleared as I got out of the car and slipped breaking my femur. That resulted in 6 months + off work and continual problems in the 20 years since. We took legal action via our family solicitor but would probably have been better to use a specialist legal tme.

An out of court settlement was made the evening before the court date, we had little choice other than to accept it as the legal costs were so high and IF we had rejected the sum offered and then not gained any more in court we would have been liable for the other side's legal expenses as well.

Our legal bill was in excess of £50,000, their's even higher - at one point I was followed by a private detective who filmed me to "prove what i was saying was wrong", unfortuantely for them the video showed that the problems I was having, and still have, were exactly as I had described and actually weakened the defence's case rather than strenghtening it as they had wished!

But the process was very stressfull, when we were sent the "spying" video from the private detective I felt very unhappy at the invasion of privacy. (I could never be a celebrity with the Paparrazzi following me!).

We all wish you the best of luck for the future and hope that the outcome is what you would wish for, if you can please do let us know the outcome - it will benefit all of us.

I hope it goes well,

Dave


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## johnc (May 1, 2005)

Penquin said:


> Thank you for posting this, we all hope we never end up HAVING to take the same route for similar problems but the expereince you have been willing to share wth us all will benefit us all for the future.
> 
> I have only once been involved in litigation as a victim of some stupid behavious by a manager of a petrol station who had washed off (not) a spillage of diesel fro the forecourt. Having beckoned me forward (in a Peugeot 505 + 20' caravan behind, I discovered how poorly it had been cleared as I got out of the car and slipped breaking my femur. That resulted in 6 months + off work and continual problems in the 20 years since. We took legal action via our family solicitor but would probably have been better to use a specialist legal tme.
> 
> ...


Dave
Thanks for the good wishes, I am sorry to hear of your misfortune and of your escalating legal bills. My plan is to limit the amount I am claiming to that which can be set by the Small Claims Court in Scotland which is £3,000 and as such the court fees are very modest.

Regards

John C


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Hi John,

Posting purely as a private individual and not as a dealer, what happens if you lose the case and have to pay the other parties legal costs. (not that I am suggesting you will)

The Court fees in England are purely for filing the case and I would imagine that is the same in Scotland.

Court fees here for a £3000 claim are quite modest, circa £300 from memory although I have lost my price list!

Peter


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