# Hymer Club International - the Committee Rules OK?



## 96509

I have been in correspondence with the Committee of HCI about their refusal to publish a letter I wrote for publication in the Club Newsletter; it was a suggestion for a better (and fairer) way of allocating places on Rallies which were over-subscribed. Although a rejection of any idea for changing the current system was published, citing three "complaints" which had been received but giving no information about them other than that they proposed change which was not considered apporopriate. My specific request that my suggestion (or complaint, as they would have it) be published so that Members could consider it for themselves was refused.

I then objected to what seemed to me to be suppression of open discussion and the Secretary subsequently confirmed that the Committee do not regard the Newsletter as having a role in open communication, on the grounds that it is only published eleven times per year. The Committee is also unwilling to publish anything which they regard as potentially rude or insulting to other Members. (It has not been suggested specifically that my letter was rude or offense.) It has also been pointed out that if I want my say, the AGM will be my (only) opportunity.

Has anyone else found HCI to be a Club (or rather to have a Committee) which is resistant to new ideas or change to the extent of actively blocking open communication among Club Members?

Would any HCI Memebers who contribute to this forum like to see more open discussion of ideas?

Stuart Ormerod


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## androidGB

I was interested to read your post having just bought a Hymer and considering joining the HCI.

Perhaps it may be an idea to publish your letter on here where members HCI or not are allowed free speech.

Or do you risk being "expelled" if you do?


Andrew


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## 94055

Hi,
I also await your responce to a publication on here. Do you have a copy of the rules & regs related to HCI? 
How do they allocate at the moment?

Regards

Steve


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## Frantone

*HCI*

Please, please post your correspondence here. 
We've recently become Hymer owners and I considered joing HCI (as there is usually a good knowledge base in owner's clubs and often there are benefits too). However, we've been in other owners clubs and found that there can be downsides often manifested by cliquiness and 'rule' mongering. 
It seems to me that this forum fulfills all the needs that owners clubs claim to provide without the committee or proprietors or founders becoming anal!
Frantone


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## takeaflight

I was a member for the first year of M/H ownership, however unless you are into rallies I found it to be of no benefit.


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## 92859

*Hymer club*

Greetings,

I will watch this thread with interest Stuart, I also am purchasing a Hymer in the New Year and have considered whether we should join "the club" or not.


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## geraldandannie

androidGB said:


> Or do you risk being "expelled" if you do?


I wouldn't have thought so. As the originator of the letter, you own the copyright to it, and therefore can do with it what you wish.

Anyway, I'm sure the committee of the HCI are too busy making up new rules to come on here and peruse the threads. If you're really concerned, you can use the members' bar, which is hidden from guests.

Gerald


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## 96509

*My Correspondence with the HCI Committee*

To the Chairman, Hymer Club International

24 July 2006

Dear Mr Stockley,

My wife and I are new members of HCI and this letters aims to provide the viewpoint of a fresh pairs of eyes to what seems to be an old and contentious problem for the Club - the allocation of places on rallies. I tried to book the German Rally only to discover that it was booked up almost immediately and that getting on a popular Club rally is quite difficult. A commentary in the latest Newsletter (as it happens based on the Germany Rally) explains how places are allocated, effectively on a first come first served basis. This system is patently unfair and needs changing.

The vagaries of the postal system will always favour those who get the Newsletter earlier than others have the opportunity to get a Form into the post quickly or deliver it personally. It disadvantages those who live further away (in postal terms) and those are new to the Club or and otherwise inexperienced in the way the system operates. The current system is also unaccountable and clearly open to abuse in a number of ways by the person who receives and sorts the applications. Booking Forms, as currently printed, are not specific to a particular rally and so this will allow someone to fill it in and deliver a Booking Form even before the Newsletter is received. I will explain these weaknesses in more detail if you need me to do so but I think it fairly obvious to anyone who is not naïve or blinkered by vested interest that the present system is unfair.

I suggest that the only fair way to allocate a limited number of places is by means of a ballot. There is no need to make a meal of this process or to spend money on doing it. The ballot should take place once a reasonable period of time to get an application in has passed, say two weeks or a month after the relevant Newsletter went out. In order to protect the organiser from suspicion of fiddling the ballot, the applications would be picked out of a bag in the presence of someone who was credibly impartial.

Of course the system must also be fair to those who take the trouble to organise and lead rallies. Rally Officers may want to ensure that their particular friends are allocated places. An appropriate (declared) number of places on the Rally could be reserved for allocation by the Rally Officer for this reason. I hope this is useful.

Yours sincerely

Stuart Ormerod

I telephoned the Chairman after receiving no reply and this led me to write again as follows:

15 November 2006

Dear Mr Stockley,

Balloting for places on Oversubscribed Rallies

Following our telephone conversation last evening I ask again that my letter dated July 24th is published in the Club Newsletter together with this further letter.

The Committee clearly feel that they have given sufficient consideration to suggestions that a ballot system be introduced for allocating places on over-subscribed rallies. Well the Committee is elected to make decisions on behalf of the Membership so I would not quibble with that - after all the Membership can express its view at the next AGM if it wants the Committee to do differently.

But to suppressing open discussion of a contentious issue by refusing to publish a letter in the Newsletter when specifically requested to do so is not a reasonable way for the Committee to behave. The Rally Coordinator's précis in the November Newsletter, of what he refers to as "complaints", stuck me as distinctly one-sided and is by no means an adequate substitute for allowing the Membership to read and consider my suggestion for themselves. I would also like to read what the other "complainants" have said.

You will perhaps remember that when I telephoned you to chase up the lack of response to my first letter, you volunteered that it looked odd or suspicious that so many Committee Members' names appeared on the Rally lists. I had not made any allegations of impropriety at all (and still have not done so) and was not even aware that Committee Members have been exceptionally successful at getting places on Rallies. But you felt it appropriate to mention this, so presumably this issue is something of an old chestnut. Your decision to refuse publication of my letter has of course started me thinking that there may indeed be something going on of which the Membership would not approve.

I suggest that the Committee will do itself no favours by appearing to want to suppress open discussion on this matter. I enclose a copy of my first letter in case you have lost it. I will also email both letters to you to facilitate publishing.

Yours sincerely

Stuart Ormerod

I then received a letter from the Club Secretary, to which I replied:

1 December 2006

Dear Mr Banks

Thank you for your letter dated 26 November. You have explained why the Committee does not want to adopt balloting for HCI Rallies. I understand that this view is firmly held by the current Committee but I am grateful for the additional trouble you have taken to explain why.

My second letter to the Chairman was however about openness of communication within the Club. I was expressing concern that the Committee is deliberately suppressing open discussion by means of the Club's Newsletter.

I suggested that the Committee should not suppress any contribution to the Newsletter by a Member without very good reason and certainly not merely because the ideas or views expressed do not align with theirs.

I would be grateful if you would make it clear whether my letters are to be published in the Club Newsletter, as I have specifically requested. If the letters are not to be published then I would be grateful if you would explain why.

Yours sincerely

Stuart Ormerod

I received a reply to this letter confirming that my letters would not be published, that the Committee did not consider the Newsletter to be a suitable medium for open discussion because it was only published eleven times per year and that nor were they willing to publish letters which might be rude or insulting to other Members. It was pointed out that if I wished to make any further representation, the AGM would be the place to do it.


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## 94055

Stuart,
Thank you for posting the above, I for one will not be joining the afore mentioned club. If I felt as strongly as you and it was possible I would attend the AGM, I would also try to drum up support from fellow members of this forum.
Good luck with your choice of direction and keep us posted. I am sure other members will have other/similar thoughts.

Steve


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## 96509

*I have invited the Club Sectretary to respond*

In the interests of openness and balance I have written to the Club Secretary to ask permission to publish the replies I received on this Forum.

I have also encouraged him, in the absence of any forum for open discussion within the Club, to post his own comments on this Forum.

Stuart


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## geraldandannie

Well done, Stuart. I think you've been fair and open. You don't even complain about committee members receiving preferential places on rallies - merely that if they do so, it should be made public.

Outright refusal to print your letters is a bit naughty, IMO, and smacks of suppression of opinion.

Gerald


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## androidGB

Stuart, your suggestion to me seems reasonable, logical and fair to everyone.
It therefore seems very strange that it is not adopted or a least put to the members for discussion.

As a result of this post I will not be in a hurry to join the club, and on reflection I believe my needs are better served by "clubs" such as this.

The variety of motorhomes I believe gives a fuller better balanced group than one make clubs, and there are enough knowledgeable Hymer owners on here to answer specifics


Andrew


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## JockandRita

takeaflight said:


> I was a member for the first year of M/H ownership, however unless you are into rallies I found it to be of no benefit.


We were with them for a year, and attended a rally. Apart from the rally organisers, a couple from Essex and a couple from Bury, nobody else really wanted to be sociable.

A complete contrast to our findings at MHF or MCC rallies/meets which have been nothing short of friendly and sociable.

We would be interested in a Hymer Owners Forum mainly for the technical information, tips, contacts, etc, etc.

J & R


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## Don_Madge

JockandRita said:


> takeaflight said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was a member for the first year of M/H ownership, however unless you are into rallies I found it to be of no benefit.
> 
> 
> 
> We were with them for a year, and attended a rally. Apart from the rally organisers, a couple from Essex and a couple from Bury, nobody else really wanted to be sociable.
> 
> A complete contrast to our findings at MHF or MCC rallies/meets which have been nothing short of friendly and sociable.
> 
> We would be interested in a Hymer Owners Forum mainly for the technical information, tips, contacts, etc, etc.
> 
> J & R
Click to expand...

Hi J & R,

There is a Hymer forum on Yahoo at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/myhymer/

Not a great deal of activity on it but they usually manage to answer any queries.

Merry Christmas.

Don


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## JockandRita

Hi Don,

Thanks for that link. Iwill have a look.

Steve (SandJ) sent me a link for an English tranlated site, from Germany.

It looked the business and was full of info, but it would not accept any attempt to register. I cannot remember where the link is.....but now I just have. It's Here :lol: :lol: :lol:

If anyone can find a way to register, I would be pleased to know, as would other Hymer owners on here.

Jock.


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## Don_Madge

JockandRita said:


> Hi Don,
> 
> Thanks for that link. Iwill have a look.
> 
> Steve (SandJ) sent me a link for an English tranlated site, from Germany.
> 
> It looked the business and was full of info, but it would not accept any attempt to register. I cannot remember where the link is.....but now I just have. It's Here :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> If anyone can find a way to register, I would be pleased to know, as would other Hymer owners on here.
> 
> Jock.


Jock,

I've registered OK and I can get on the forum. Ithink, I got this message

Der neueste Benutzer ist Don Madge. which confirms I've registered.

I've also got a confirmation e mail.

You also have to wait for your membership to be activated.

I've translated the text.

Welcomely on HME travel mobile forum Please keep stored this E-Mail, if you should forget your password. Your log in data are the following: --------------------------- Username: Don Madge password: --------------------------- Your account is for the moment inactive. The administrator must activate it only, before you can log in. You get further email, if this happened. The password was stored only coded in our data base, if you thus forgets it, cannot we it to you any longer send. If you should forget it nevertheless, you can request a new however at any time.

Don


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## 96509

*The attraction of joining HCI*

I don't want to appear to be negative about HCI, because it does seem to me to offers a useful propspect of Hymer-focussed companionship and also some useful technical information. It is therefore sensible for thoise who are new to Hymers to consider joining.

I joined when we boughtour first Hymer about 12 years ago but lapsed our Membership after the first year; I cannot remeber precisely why we lapsed the Membership but I vaguely remember having the impression then that it was a cliquey Club which was not easily accessible to newcomers. If I had remebered thsi more clear perhaps we would not have bothered re-joining when we came back to motorhoming in early 2006 when we bought another Hymer. We went along to the Peterborough Show with HCI but it turned out that this coinicided with the Club's AGM, which takes the form of a long weekend with quite a social component. There were nevertheless about 20 HCI Hymers at Peterborough and we chatted with adjacent Hymer owners but as a Club gathering it was not up to much - we did not see the Rally Officer again after being directed to our pitch and the coffee morning he talked about did not seem to happen. Pleasant enough people in adjacent MHs and certainly no complaints but it was by no means an encouraging start.

Next I tried to book a Rally which turned out to be hugely oversubscribed, indeed it was fully booked by half way through the second postal delivery to the Rally Officer, so I missed that boat completely, even though I posted off my form as soon as the Newsletter arrived. The theory of the First Past the Post system of place allocations is that everyone has a fair chance as long as they are quick off the mark.

The attaraction of this Rally was that it was to Bavaria and incorporated a visit to the Hymer factory in Bad Waldsee. I have since discovered (because I needed some guarantee work doing) that anyone can book into the factory's Service Centre to have work done and that they will happily arrange a factory tour while you are there. So no need to go as a Club at all.

An earlier post questioned the value of joining HCI unless you are into single-make rallies and I think this is sensible. No doubt if you are prepared to take the trouble to get yourself known within the Club, learn the ropes of how to make the rally Booking system work for you, you may find that HCI is a way of building friendships with other Hymer owners with whom you can share rallies at home and abroad. I suspect that as last time my wife and I joined, we will allow our Membership to lapse and look elsewhere for motorhoming companionship which more closely suits our aims. Incidentally HCI is quite a well heeled Club which has built up quite substantial reserves; I wonder if lots of people have paid their £31 annual subscription for a first year and not bothered to renew.

Don't be discouraged from joining HCI if Hymer-only rallies will meet your needs but don't have unrealistic expectations of what the club actually offers.

Stuart


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## JockandRita

Don Madge said:


> JockandRita said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Don,
> 
> Thanks for that link. Iwill have a look.
> 
> Steve (SandJ) sent me a link for an English tranlated site, from Germany.
> 
> It looked the business and was full of info, but it would not accept any attempt to register. I cannot remember where the link is.....but now I just have. It's Here :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> If anyone can find a way to register, I would be pleased to know, as would other Hymer owners on here.
> 
> Jock.
> 
> 
> 
> Jock,
> 
> I've registered OK and I can get on the forum. Ithink, I got this message
> 
> Der neueste Benutzer ist Don Madge. which confirms I've registered.
> 
> I've also got a confirmation e mail.
> 
> You also have to wait for your membership to be activated.
> 
> I've translated the text.
> 
> Welcomely on HME travel mobile forum Please keep stored this E-Mail, if you should forget your password. Your log in data are the following: --------------------------- Username: Don Madge password: --------------------------- Your account is for the moment inactive. The administrator must activate it only, before you can log in. You get further email, if this happened. The password was stored only coded in our data base, if you thus forgets it, cannot we it to you any longer send. If you should forget it nevertheless, you can request a new however at any time.
> 
> Don
Click to expand...

Don,

You obviously have that "Midas" touch, or probably I have missed something.

When I tried to register, they asked me to type in the numbers/letters that I saw in the window, but there was nothing in the window other than a red cross, so I got fed up trying.

Thanks for the info.

Jock.


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## androidGB

Don Madge said:


> JockandRita said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Don,
> 
> Thanks for that link. Iwill have a look.
> 
> Steve (SandJ) sent me a link for an English tranlated site, from Germany.
> 
> It looked the business and was full of info, but it would not accept any attempt to register. I cannot remember where the link is.....but now I just have. It's Here :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> If anyone can find a way to register, I would be pleased to know, as would other Hymer owners on here.
> 
> Jock.
> 
> 
> 
> Jock,
> 
> I've registered OK and I can get on the forum. Ithink, I got this message
> 
> Der neueste Benutzer ist Don Madge. which confirms I've registered.
> 
> I've also got a confirmation e mail.
> 
> You also have to wait for your membership to be activated.
> 
> I've translated the text.
> 
> Welcomely on HME travel mobile forum Please keep stored this E-Mail, if you should forget your password. Your log in data are the following: --------------------------- Username: Don Madge password: --------------------------- Your account is for the moment inactive. The administrator must activate it only, before you can log in. You get further email, if this happened. The password was stored only coded in our data base, if you thus forgets it, cannot we it to you any longer send. If you should forget it nevertheless, you can request a new however at any time.
> 
> Don
Click to expand...

I've also just registered successsfully, if you select English as the forum language when registering, your confirmation email comes in English



Andrew


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## Don_Madge

JockandRita said:


> Don Madge said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JockandRita said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Don,
> 
> Thanks for that link. Iwill have a look.
> 
> Steve (SandJ) sent me a link for an English tranlated site, from Germany.
> 
> It looked the business and was full of info, but it would not accept any attempt to register. I cannot remember where the link is.....but now I just have. It's Here :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> If anyone can find a way to register, I would be pleased to know, as would other Hymer owners on here.
> 
> Jock.
> 
> 
> 
> Jock,
> 
> I've registered OK and I can get on the forum. Ithink, I got this message
> 
> Der neueste Benutzer ist Don Madge. which confirms I've registered.
> 
> I've also got a confirmation e mail.
> 
> You also have to wait for your membership to be activated.
> 
> I've translated the text.
> 
> Welcomely on HME travel mobile forum Please keep stored this E-Mail, if you should forget your password. Your log in data are the following: --------------------------- Username: Don Madge password: --------------------------- Your account is for the moment inactive. The administrator must activate it only, before you can log in. You get further email, if this happened. The password was stored only coded in our data base, if you thus forgets it, cannot we it to you any longer send. If you should forget it nevertheless, you can request a new however at any time.
> 
> Don
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don,
> 
> You obviously have that "Midas" touch, or probably I have missed something.
> 
> When I tried to register, they asked me to type in the numbers/letters that I saw in the window, but there was nothing in the window other than a red cross, so I got fed up trying.
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Jock.
Click to expand...

Jock,
When you register to get the code go to the bottom of the page and click ABSENDEN and them the code shoild appear.

Don


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## 94055

I have not got that link either now Jock, but I have found this site.

http://hme.phicus.de/bb/index.php?sid=e39b7a94d7a3b7a0dab74ad7db451de5

This may be of some help?

Steve


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## 92859

*Hymer*

Greetings,

Just joined this site Steve: HME

Also joined the Yahoo group as well, may find some relevant Hymer information useful!!


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## 94055

Nice one Peter keep us informed.
That link is the one I gave jock the first time

Steve


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## Don_Madge

*Re: Hymer*



Humber-Traveller said:


> Greetings,
> 
> Just joined this site Steve: HME
> 
> Also joined the Yahoo group as well, may find some relevant Hymer information useful!!


Peter,

I've been reading some of the translated pages on the site, it's really hard going at times with the electronic translations.

Regards

Don


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## 92859

*Hymer*

Greetings,



> I've been reading some of the translated pages on the site, it's really hard going at times with the electronic translations.


I understand Don, it is confusing at times but I can just probably make out some of the content, maybe have to go back to school to learn German again, and while I am at it, learn some french as well, go these CD's learn French in a week, had them three weeks now and I can still wouold not be able to get by in France!


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## 94055

I posted in English and had replies in English. No good for previous posts but they had no problems about asking questions that may already be on the forum.

Steve


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## 92859

*Hymer*

Greetings,



> I posted in English and had replies in English


I have registered Steve but cannot log on to be able to post, keep getting a blank screen.

:x-mas:


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## 94055

Have they sent you an email confirmation? I think it may be that? Not 100% sure though.

Steve


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## JockandRita

SandJ said:


> Nice one Peter keep us informed.
> That link is the one I gave jock the first time
> 
> Steve


Brilliant, absolutely brilliant . :roll: :roll: :roll: Having followed Don's advice, Rita and I are now, "Der neueste Benutzer ist jockandrita. "

What the bl##dy hell does that mean....registered???

No offence Don, we are only joking. :lol: :lol: :lol: .

Steve, hopefully has the answer, that by confirming the registration via e-mail, we will be able to participate in the forum having chosen English as our language, as per the option.

Watch this space. :? :? :?

J & R


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## 92859

*Hymer*

Greetings,

Got my email notification chaps but still can't log on, the page just goes blank, may try again tomorrow. :? :?


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## 94055

Peter,
You will not be allowed on straight away.
I am unable to log on myself 8O I may have used another username :roll: 
This is a good site when you do get on and very helpfull.

Steve


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## Don_Madge

I must be the only member of the Hymer forum with Timberland 8O 8O 8O 

If they find out I might be told Sie konnten bitten mich, weiter zu gehen und zu multiplizieren.

Merry Chrismas everybody.

Don


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## 96509

*Aren't you on the wrong Thread chaps?*

All this stuff about a foreign website is a bit off Thread isn't it chaps?

And wouldn't all these personal messages be better posted as such?

Sorry to be a killjoy but clutter like this spoils a Thread don't you think?

Stuart


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## JockandRita

*Re: Aren't you on the wrong Thread chaps?*



sormerod said:


> All this stuff about a foreign website is a bit off Thread isn't it chaps?
> 
> And wouldn't all these personal messages be better posted as such?
> 
> Sorry to be a killjoy but clutter like this spoils a Thread don't you think?
> 
> Stuart


    But it is Hymer related. 

Jock


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## Batch

I thought it was OK as well just a small deviation.
   
Merry Christmas!!!!


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## androidGB

A little bit of deviation does you good I think.

Otherwise we may end up like the HCI, without to much flexibility it would appear


Andrew


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## 90936

*Hymer Club International - Bookings*

I sent a similar comments to the Secretary last july:

Dear Mr Stockley,

As an interested bystander (I still have to work!), it was enlightening 
to read of how you dealt with the German Rally applications.

It's obvious that you tried to be as fair as possible, however, I think 
that the system may need tweaking a little.

Given the vagaries of the postal system, the fact that people are not 
always at their home address and the need to avoid half the club 
driving to Essex each month, then, to be fair to all, a slightly different 
system needs to be adopted.

Can I suggest:

* A cut-off date when all applications have to be made which is at 
least 14 days after the magazine is posted.
* All applications to be accompanied by a SAE to receive the result.
* All applications received at the cut-off date to be put in a "hat" and 
the "winners" drawn out, along with "reserves".
* The successful candidates have 14 days to pay their rally fee, 
otherwise the place is offered to reserve 1 etc.

I think this would be fairer for all the membership, whether they live 
round the corner or are away touring (when the can arrange for 
someone to contact them within the 14 day period).

Best wishes

Martin Bennett

PS
We managed 7 days at the Pentewan Rally and would like to thank 
Phil Robinson for organising this - we really enjoyed it.


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## 96509

*Useful Diversions*



androidGB said:


> A little bit of deviation does you good I think.
> 
> Otherwise we may end up like the HCI, without to much flexibility it would appear
> 
> Andrew


OK I give in, sorry I raised it!

Stuart


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## 96509

*Re: Hymer Club International - Bookings*



MartinBennett said:


> I sent a similar comments to the Secretary last july....
> Martin Bennett


Ah! So you were one of the three "Complainers" referred to in the Newsletter too, and of course your suggestion didn't get aired to the Membership either.

Glad to hear to enjoyed an HCI Rally subsequently; comforting to know that you didn't get the cold shoulder for being a Complainer.

Stuart


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## 96509

*Re: No rsponse from HCI Club Secretary*



sormerod said:


> In the interests of openness and balance I have written to the Club Secretary to ask permission to publish the replies I received on this Forum.
> 
> I have also encouraged him, in the absence of any forum for open discussion within the Club, to post his own comments on this Forum.
> 
> Stuart


In way of a postscript to this thread, you might like to know that I have received no reply.

I decided not to renew my Membership of Hymer Club International.

I wonder if lots of people join because they have bought a Hymer and then drop out disappointed after a year or so.

Stuart


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## JockandRita

*Re: No rsponse from HCI Club Secretary*

*[/quote]
I decided not to renew my Membership of Hymer Club International.
I wonder if lots of people join because they have bought a Hymer and then drop out disappointed after a year or so.
Stuart[/quote]*

Speaking from a similar experience, it could well be.   

They certainly don't come across as friendly, as MHF'ers, or MCC'ers. :lol:

J & R


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## smick

*HCI*

To get back to the original post:

Having read all the correspondence between the parties:

Seems to me that this is the type of club referred to by Groucho Marx, when he pointed out that " I wouldn't want to be a member of any Club that would accept me as a member."

Which is how I feel about it. If they're not interested in what their members think about their ways of doing things, they're not worth joining.

Smick


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