# Motorhome Cab Door Locks



## paulharrison (May 1, 2005)

we are a firm of locksmiths in Worcester marketing a range of Deadlocks for motorhome Cab doors, the lock makes the door dead, it as a high security 7 pin cylinder making it very hard to pick, a burgalar would struggle, you cant slip the door and there is nothing to see on the inside.

I need your comments on the pros and cons of securing your cab doors, if you have a converted box van we have a deadlock 
for all the doors

We are going to market the Locks at £85.00 each D.I.Y and offer a fitting service at most shows with a fitting charge of £45.00 per lock


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## 88741 (May 9, 2005)

Sounds good to me, just wished you had posted earlier as have arranged for lock to be fitted today and would liked to have seen yours, if you want to show us what it looks like, sure Dave would only be too happy for you to post a picture on here, just run it by him first, a contribution to the sites funds should do the job :wink:


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## MOTORHOMER (May 9, 2005)

Hi


We might be interested as wll. Are you at the NEC & do you have extra secure locks for rear doors and slider doors for the Ducato



Motorhomer


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Please be very careful DEADlock, dead could be the operative word.

With cab doors secured this way, thats 2 potential exits blocked.

You would still have the weak caravan door which can be opened at will as easy as winking, windows that are also easy to get past.

I cant see how having these fantastic locks are going to help, on a commercial vehicle fantastic. But on a camper dangerous and pointless.

George


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## 89429 (May 23, 2005)

George there needs to be no problem with deadlocks unless you lock yourself into the van. Remember more vans are broken into when the van is unattended and in these cases the deadlock is of great benefit.


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

First of all welcome to the site paulharrison.

docted wrote;



> George there needs to be no problem with deadlocks unless you lock yourself into the van. Remember more vans are broken into when the van is unattended and in these cases the deadlock is of great benefit.


I'd agree, a more appropriate product for security whilst inside the vehicle (wildcamping etc) would probably be the heo safe product that attaches to, and is locked/unlocked from, the inside of the vehicle.

See http://www.leisure-solutions.co.uk/ELS.pdf

It seems to me that there's a market for a deadlock that can be operated from both inside AND outside the vehicle on cab AND conversion doors for both security and safety.

Over to you paul, if you could come up with a product like that, i'd definately be interested.

pete.


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## paulharrison (May 1, 2005)

*Cab Door Locks*

Thanks to every body who replied,I know there is a need for the locks.
The problem with opening the door for the inside is, if you can do it a crook can, as for the rear of the van most motorhomes are only caravan constrution with plastic windows and fiberglass panels make it easy to enter but makes a lot of noise, but the cab doors can be opened very quicky and silently, ? Did you know it only takes 10 seconds to open a merc sprinter cab door.
Paul


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## 88741 (May 9, 2005)

As said before on the forum, there are always ways around any security system, but I firmly beleive that a good deterrrent is worth it's weight in gold.

The only way to be 100% certain you will not get broken into/van stolen ,is not to have one in the first place. But anything that slows a potential thief down has to be good news, so go for it Paul :wink:


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## Andysam (May 10, 2005)

Are these locks the radial type? Oxford products are recalling ALL of these type locks as they can be opened with a ballpoint pen!


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## claypigeon (May 9, 2005)

Hi Paul where in Worcester are you


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## 88847 (May 9, 2005)

docted said:


> George there needs to be no problem with deadlocks unless you lock yourself into the van. Remember more vans are broken into when the van is unattended and in these cases the deadlock is of great benefit.


Docted,

we, wife and i would dissagree with your statement.......vans are broken into when unattended.....read xmas disaster   

Do agree that deadlocks would be of some use, and i would even use them

I believe that it is time for someone to produce a lockable system the can be as secure on the *inside* as they are on the outside, for example my security handle on the caravan door is of no use when i sleep in the van, nor are the fiamma door locks any use either as they are all on the outside

we now have small length large chains that are attached to the metal seat frame via 10mm eyebolt and at the other end, the doorframe, we have another 10mm eyebolt that has been opened up a little to allow the link to be slipped over, 
The chains are down at the bottom of the doors so not to be easily reached thru broken window, (we had that aswell) a similar chain is fitted on the inside of the caravan door, easy for us to slip off, difficult to open door any wider than 20mm, this stops any cutters coming into play
forgive my rambling.............mission orientated

Paul


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## 89429 (May 23, 2005)

Paul
My reply was to George Telfords assertion:-

"Please be very careful DEADlock, dead could be the operative word. 

With cab doors secured this way, thats 2 potential exits blocked. 

You would still have the weak caravan door which can be opened at will as easy as winking, windows that are also easy to get past. 

I cant see how having these fantastic locks are going to help, on a commercial vehicle fantastic. But on a camper dangerous and pointless." 

If you read these two combined you will understand what my comments refer to.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Docted

So cab doors are scure with super dooper Deadlocks, so does our scrote

A. run away in tears because he cant enter via the cab or.....

B. no all scrote as to do is enter via the flimsy caravan door, which if it could withstand the attack of an effeminate thief who is worried about his new nails for 2 seconds is doing very well...........

So lets recap £140 per front cab door and what have you achieved ? 

Use them when your in the van could be dangerous.

On a van conversion (non flimsy) fit these all round when you are not around and the scrote will think twice about going through the windows (no matter how easy and they are easy) The Windows BTW are far more secure than any caravan door.

George


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## 89429 (May 23, 2005)

George
In your case do you lock your doors at all?
Why bother your scrote :twisted: , lovely term, will appreciate your kindness and not take away anything he/she can lay their hands on and not trash your van.
Advice from the Police is to hinder as much as possible; a deadlock may deter a thief, however if a thief is determined you can say goodbye to your belongings anyway locks , alarms, wheel removal, denver boots etc can only act as a deterrent.
That is why I would suggest use of a deadlock in the approriate circumstances.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Docted

Quote Docted

In your case do you lock your doors at all? Why bother your scrote , lovely term, will appreciate your kindness and not take away anything he/she can lay their hands on and not trash your van. 

Answer :: No point leaving it open and free to be taken, but what is the point of spending £280 on 2 locks for a "STRAW house"?



Quote Docted 

Advice from the Police is to hinder as much as possible; a deadlock may deter a thief, however if a thief is determined you can say goodbye to your belongings anyway locks , alarms, wheel removal, denver boots etc can only act as a deterrent. 

Answer Thats great advice, but dont hinder you own escape either, advice from George and the fire service, nip down to your local fire station and ask them what they think.


Quote Docted : That is why I would suggest use of a deadlock in the approriate circumstances.

Answer : Same here! but on a flimsy its totally inappropriate and possibly dangerous.

George


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Hi george,

Are you saying that an extra deadlock on a caravan door is inneffective?
If it is it's scuppered my plans...

I was considering fitting heosafe internal deadlocks to the front doors and a standard exterior deadlock to the caravan door, then figure out some sort of way of securing the caravan door whilst we're inside, (maybe something that can slide underneath the internal doorhandle and against the internal wall preventing the door from opening, a bit like a security bar). You'd then have the best of both worlds, you can be secure inside the vehicle but be able to get out quick and also be able to deadlock the entire van whilst its annattended. 

I still maintain theres a market out there for deadlocks that fit ALL doors of a m'home and are lockable both internally AND externally.
What do you think?

pete.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peejay

I showed a site owner how easy it is to enter a caravan door (they needed to move one that had been abandoned by the owners) Now bear in mind this was on an older caravan but they used to make the door frames stronger anyway, with the wrong tool I was in very rapidly and I am no thief. Incidently its extremely quiet too.

A Deadbolt would have to have a very large throw to stop that method (bigger than is feasible)

If they could be operated both sides I would agree, but you need really to leave the Key in on inside when sleeping in the vehicle.

But if its £140 per lock with only single sided opening what would dual opening cost?

The other safety issue I could see is that of every day unlocking all the cab deadlocks, how long till it would become a chore and you would be driving with 2 exits blocked.


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## 88741 (May 9, 2005)

OK George so what is the answer to security then?


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## Yorky (May 10, 2005)

[

Answer Thats great advice, but dont hinder you own escape either, advice from George and the fire service, nip down to your local fire station and ask them what they think.


George
The Fire service would probably give the same advice as for a domestic dwelling, get a smoke alarm and prepare a plan of escape.
Regards Eddie


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Helen

Security in what sense? 

when laid up? deadbolts would be ok makes it harder too sell on, they would have to replace all the deadlocks, if its worth enough your van is still gone though, if its been ordered.

when you are in it? Hard balance then between safety of contents or people to me the people are worth far more than contents. Low level steel joining cable between cab doors that can be quickly realeased for escape puposes, bar accross caravan door woul work.

when out and about, but leaving van for a while? Deadlocks would deter the casual scrote from the cab, but he could easily enter caravan door even fitted with deadlock. the fiamma product ok but can be ripped from the side of a Flimsy easily (even our effeminate scrote could muster the strength to rip it off)

I'll reverse the question slightly what good will the deadlocks actually do ?

George


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Eddie

I did post a fire service link last time this came up, they hate the idea of all this security, they attend to many fires where the security as caused deaths. 

What goods the smoke alarm if you cant exit the vehicle?

BTW I have actually spoke to firemen about this and their view is that losing some property is far preferable to losing people.

While on the subject of Dwellings ring and ask what building regs would have to say about fitting your house with deadlocks that can only be keyed from the outside. ask fire service same question. The mistake Paul is making is treating a motorhome the same as a commercial vehicle, the motorhome is a dwelling.

Like Pete says inside and outside keying is important. to me the inside part needs to be keyless and easy to operate (but not easily accessable to scrote reaching in)

On my first Motorhome I asked the kids to exit back of van quickly they could not do it without several demo's and that was in good light, wife has same problem pretty soon I made sure everyone could do it sight unseen

and this was a simple lever to unlock and paddle handle release.


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## smifee (May 17, 2005)

security is like keeping warm. the more layers you have the more effective it is.

however it doesn't matter how many layers of clothing you have if the temperature gets low enough.

it doesn't matter how many layers of security you have if your motorhome is targeted by skilled & determined thieves who are stealing to order.

BUT most motorhome crimes do not involve stealing to order. they are carried out by scroats ( what does everyone have against the serbo-croats?) who usually want cash/cards/property. each layer of security increases the chance that they will give up & leave empty handed.

you just hope that they don't cause to much damage before giving up :roll:


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Smiffee

I agree Security and Ogres are like onions, but how does a deadlock actually help? OK the cab is now Harder to get into, but the Caravan door is a cakewalk even if you fit a deadlock so thats a non starter. 


George


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## smifee (May 17, 2005)

hi george

the layer principle deals with every level of thief. 

the first level is the first time thief. whatever visible deterrent you have may send him on to the next vehicle with no visible deterrent.

a determined thief will rip the fiamma or many other locks from the caravan door because it is an easy way in.

if the level of the thief exceeds your level of deterrents he wins you lose.

i once babysat a burglar and he was facing a 10 yr sentence. he didn't have much to lose and was quite chatty. he had a modus operandi that he never deviated from. he would travel to an area by public transport, always wear collar & tie. he never broke into a house with a light on or a dog barking. the people who left a light on or had a dog never knew that this had prevented their house being broken into.

that's the problem with layer security - you only know that it has worked when a thief leaves evidence that he has tried to get in but didn't succeed. you never know the times when a thief saw your deterrents and just moved on. you always know when it didn't work :roll: 

there is no magic formula. you just have to make it as difficult as possible. nothing will stop an organised gang even if they have to make several visits before taking your pride & joy


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## 93514 (May 1, 2005)

HelenB said:


> OK George so what is the answer to security then?


Bad move HelenB.

I know, I know, civilised, no personal attacks, it's not face to face etc etc :roll: ............

BUT it's not really a discussion is it AND its a very relevant subject to many who must be put off by this constant arrogance, hence not too many join in, apart from a small handful of stalwart individuals who must enjoy the verbal duelling.

We need more actual participants (according to Dave we have the numbers) and less from self opinionated 'experts'.

I read with great interest all the claims and counter claims in relation to gas attacks and several points raised in that debate included "show me the evidence" and "where are all the deaths" so I feel justified in asking where is the evidence from the quoted fire authority experts that occupants of motorhomes have been killed or seriously injured as a result of not being able to exit their vehicles due to being trapped by security devices.

An approximate figure would suffice as I'm not really a fan of pointless debate.

I am a big fan of as many security devices you can possibly fit and I have deadbolts on my van doors.

Kev :wink:


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## 92046 (May 1, 2005)

*The Best Deterrent Ever*

Hi to all

Staying at a France Passion place last year, it was explained to me by a couple (Clive + Margaret from New Zealand) the best deterrent ever, and i had to agree with them, they were on a 2 year holiday, they bought the MH in the UK, cost of the security system £700. yes £700. and what did it consist of!!!. NOTHING, THE £700. was the total cost of the MH. they bought the basic equipment for the holiday, park up in an aire with other MHs, and a burglar would not wast his time, !!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Motorhomersimpson (May 9, 2005)

I have read through most of the posts here, and give George a break; he just examines every angle and explores all alternatives.

I for one admire people who are willing to challenge the norm, and with out exception I think George does that, maybe not to every ones taste, but the outcome is the same.

Going back to the subject.

What is wrong with having deadlocks on the cab doors that are keyed on the inside as well as the outside, and as suggested by Pete (peejay) a bar across the habitat door, surely this would be enough.


MHS…Rob


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## RobMD (May 9, 2005)

No matter what locks are fitted, the constuction of a modern M/H is relatively flimsy, and if damage isn't an issue a van can be entered easily regardless of what locks are fitted.
Nevertheless, good locks are better than poor locks, that are better than no locks at all!

When inside the van where ease of exit is important, I have considered fitting bolts on all doors that can be easily opened. Problem is that a suitable location is not always readily available.
An alternative is to fit a security chain to each door. No keys required, easy to use, and strong - provided a good fixing is possible. This is what I am considering for use when the van is occupied.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2005)

Surely at the end of the day it is whatever makes you feel comfortable. When I bought my van the alarm did not work, so I saved my pennies and paid out a fair amount of money for a cat 1 alarm. My wife complained about the price paid, however, my van is parked on the road and one morning on way to work my heart sank when I went out and caravan door was wide open. It transpired that the alarm had been effective and the would be miscreant left with nothing. I have and still am considering what other options to take but as long as I feel comfortable when the family is in the van then I will be happy. If someone feels my meagre possessions will make them feel happier then I will live with the consequences. 
Ian
P.S. Alarm paid for itself in the one attempt. Wife now silent!


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Kev

You seem to have misread my post, I did not say or imply that the fire service were refering to motorhome deaths the link I posted before showed houses with OTT security and urged people to think again about security versus getting out alive. The fire Service did a door to door in our area and while chatting, I discussed motorhomes they agree that people getting out as got to be more important than protecting a few possesions.

I am totally open to discussion of relevent facts.

BTW do you mean Deadlocks or shoot bolts (deadbolts??)


Hi MotorHomerSimpson

Keyed both sides deadlocks would be good on a solid panel van conversion, would be safe at night with key in, good line of defence when vehicle unattended in public area, out of sight the windows are a weakness.

On a flimsey the caravan door could be barred at night, but in daytime situation you can walk up and open it in a flash even with a deadlock in place, so it would be pretty pointless spending all that money.


Hi Rob

Chains or shoot bolts are a good idea as a nightime "layer" as you say if you can find a secure fixingpoint in a flimsy. This is the main point against deadlocks the throw is not enough to stop a prise attack, the flimsyness of door and frame requires a longish throw.


Hi Ian

Thats exactly my attitude re the value of possesions and Family, Family first every time


George


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## 93514 (May 1, 2005)

I stand by my statement that I do not enter into 'pointless debate' as it invariably detracts from the original subject matter which in this instance was very clear and no-one was under any doubt that the post referred to motorhome cab doors and/or van conversions and the fitting of deadlocks thereof. 

The pros and cons can be discussed in a clear unequivocal manner without resorting to hidden analogies which have absolutely no bearing or relevance to the subject in question. Broad sweeping statements are fine if backed up by hard evidence, but not simply by vague misleading hearsay. Facts and figures feature highly in discussions such as these especially when public authorities have been quoted. 

I did not misread any post and if anyone were to suggest that I did, is a wholly wrong presumption of lack of education and intelligence on my part. I do not take these things personally and it would be wrong of me to suggest that individual contributors need to look to their own grammatical inadequacies before making suggestions to others. 

I feel that expertise needs to be asserted more on an individuals specific skills, for example, engineering ability, electrical/gas installation qualifications, experience of different cultures, languages, etc. I thoroughly enjoy the exchange of technical information but when this becomes clouded by arrogance and over bearing attitudes (commonly known as 'must get the last word in syndrome') then it most certainly becomes less and less of a discussion, technical or otherwise.

Finally, please don't spoil the thread any further by replying with your support for various individuals and how wonderful they appear to be. We are supposed to be intelligent adults and I haven't implied that any individual is more responsible than another. Hero worship isn't a big thing with me but well placed gratitude is.

Kev


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Again


KevKarts Quote

“so I feel justified in asking where is the evidence from the quoted fire authority experts that occupants of motorhomes have been killed or seriously injured as a result of not being able to exit their vehicles due to being trapped by security devices.”

Here is my quotes that lead to the above 

“I did post a fire service link last time this came up, they hate the idea of all this security, they attend to many fires where the security as caused deaths.

BTW I have actually spoke to firemen about this and their view is that losing some property is far preferable to losing people.”

Like I say Kevin you misread my post or were you refering to something else entirely?

Qualifications and experience ? Strange you imply that these should be stated, but do not offer your own.

Briefly

Passed O Level science paper 1.5 hour paper in 20 mins scoring 90 + % as a mock aged 13 having had 2 formal lessons.

Due to the above I was allowed to do a day release course in engineering at the local Technical college, from 14 to 16 yrs old (passed)
along with usual assortment from school.

I have since passed several exams in electronics and computing.

Regularly score in the top 1 % in IQ tests

Took 3 year accountancy course in 18 Months taking all 5 options instead of required 3, at same time passed Sage Course with perfect score, 2 other accountancy qualifications and an IT accounting qualification. 
During mocks spotted that the previous years exam paper was impossible to answer with the information provided, this had not been spotted by the exam writers, the exam takers or the people marking the tests, nor by all the people taking it as a mock, nor by the publishers of the accounting texts for the following year.


Does that make it OK for me to state the Obvious? that locking yourself in a van could prove dangerous in the event of a fire.


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## 89429 (May 23, 2005)

George
Congratulations you are a genius. I and all the other contributors bow down before you and recognise that you are the supreme human being above all others and with a far greater knowledge than the rest of us put together.
If you tell us where you stay we, exact coordinates please we will all bow to you morning and night to recognise your greatness.


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## 88741 (May 9, 2005)

We are wandering off the subject here a bit, and it is also getting a bit too personal for comfort  

Can we all take a deep breath please and cool it 8) 

I've got 2 very sick calves and a round the world record attempt to worry about I do not want to have to sit on here all night with my fire extinguisher.......deadlocks or no deadlocks :wink:


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Playing devils advocate. Why not fit external locks to cab doors? Many “A” class M/H have only the one door, in the living area, and if this is locked as it should be from the inside when occupied, will help prevent access by any intruder, thief, fire-fighter or otherwise and there is invariably an escape route via the windows which is probably quicker than trying to open chained cab doors.

Ken


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## 89057 (May 12, 2005)

Why not make the motorhome completely umpenetrable, using a steel plated habitation door & surround, fit deadlocks to the vehicle doors, motion & doppler shift sensors sweeping the interior 8O 
Then sleep in the awning (with a stanley knife under the pillow to escape in case of fire of course) :? 
Come to think of it someone already did that but without the motorhome :roll: 
They called it camping.


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## Yorky (May 10, 2005)

Hello All
Can I just bring the "Fire thing" into context. I have spent 30 years in a Metropolitan Fire Brigade and I have never attended, investigated, or read in other brigade reports of anyone dying in a fire in a motorcaravan or for that matter a vehicle solely on the use of deadlocks on a vehicle door.
I have been to numerous vehicle deaths where the occupant died because of collision and fire, being drunk and being overcome by fumes and unable to help themselves, suicide, and various other combinations but never just because deadlocks were fitted.
Regards Eddie.


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## Motorhomersimpson (May 9, 2005)

Hi Kev,

Sorry you took my post personally, that was certainly not my intention.

As for hero worship :lol:, forget it mate, no heroes on here in my eyes, we are all the same.

I’m just fed up with all the sniping at a certain member; it has become boring and predictable, it’s got to the stage where I no longer bother looking at certain threads, and that for me is a shame.

Perhaps some of the content in my post was wine influenced :lol: :lol: , but the point was still made, I thought, without any personal insults.

Sorry you feel the way you do, it’s only words after all. :wink: 

Helen has asked for this thread to stay on topic, so I will respond no more here, if you wish to discuss this matter more, you can always pm me, look forward to speaking again soon.


MHS…Rob


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Morton

Look through My posts I have never Claimed that anyone as died through Deadlocks on a Motorhome, I certainly hope it stays that way. All I am asking is that people think twice about blocking their escape routes. The Implication that I did say people have died in motorhomes well that is put forth by KevKarts not me.

Has a Fireman (ex?) would you reccomend blocking the exits by using Deadlocks that can only be keyed externaly while sleeping in the Vehicle?

If building regs applied it would Not be allowed, the Fire service websites that I have seen all reccomend being very careful about blocking yourself in. 

George


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## 88941 (May 10, 2005)

Hmm

Excuse me if i am being a little dim perhaps it is the wine clouding my thinking....

But if you have dead looks fitted that can only be opened externally with a key!!!!

How do you get out of the motorhome anyway fire or not ?? nip out through a window so you can use a key to open the deadlocks, then use the door as normal..

have i missed something here please put me out of my misery before i tell Debs she'll have to jump out the window in the morning to open the front door......

Keith n Debs...


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Keith

No I think the idea is to have all doors covered, but the caravan door will be secured only by "normal" means when sleeping.


George


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## Yorky (May 10, 2005)

All this talk of deadlocks as referred to the cab doors, in my van at least to get to the cab doors I would have to go past the van door, therefore this is the one I would use. If the fire was between me and the van door then it would also be between me and the cab doors, therefore having no relevance.
In my house, if the fire was at the foot of the stairs I would have no access to any downstairs doors to exit the premise therefore I would use a window that is made as an escape route and this is exactly what I would do in the van.
Keith and Debs are spot on you have to have one door that locks or opens from the inside.
As for locking doors in the van that cannot be opened from inside, if they did not constitute part of the means of escape yes, and that also goes for building regulations.
Regards Eddie.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Eddie

What is the point of Deadlocking Cab and leaving rest vunerable?

Its like padlocking the handles of a plastic bag togethor and imagining its secure.

And all doors constitute a means of escape, locking any beyond use is adding to the danger. some vehicles have mid to rear caravan doors, for people sleeping in dinnette or overcab the front (cab) may be the easiest and quickest.

George


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## Yorky (May 10, 2005)

George
If you take the deadlocking scenario to its full extent then you can have the cab doors deadlocked from the outside and the van door deadlocked from the inside, this would create the following situation. All the doors can be deadlocked at the same time, you would still have one door to exit the van in an emergency, ie the van door locked from the inside. When leaving the van, lock the van door from the inside and leave via the cab doors then lock them from the outside when you are away from the van all the doors have a deadlock.
As for means of escape then its up the the occupant to decide what is reasonable in the case prevailing, no two will be alike. I have already stated that in my situation one door would be adequate, that is obviously not the case with you. Some might be happy to rely on the standard locks and set the alarm which will actuate as soon as the door is opened, so be it. 
It's all a case of risk assessment, look around your van reduce the risk of fire to the absolute minimum and fit a smoke detector. With this scenario you will be very unlikely to have a fire and if you do the smoke detector will give you plenty warning to exit the van at a leisurely pace
However it as been well aired and everyone seems to have an opinion and rightly so but this is my last comment on this paticular thread.
Regards Eddie.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Eddie


Happily the Building regs would not allow anyone to leave only one exit useable.

The fire Service too frown on limiting escape options.

Of course if anyone wants to put themselves and or their family in more danger than needed they can block off as many escape routes as they like. 

From the beggining here I have only asked people to think very carefully about fitting deadlocks.

The other point of course is what is the point of having cab doors very secure and what amounts to an open door on the side?

George


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## bigfoot (May 16, 2005)

I've got it! Buy an ex Securicor van and convert that!


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## 89429 (May 23, 2005)

George
We are still waiting for the coordinates!!


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## 93514 (May 1, 2005)

I too like to challenge the norm and look at all the angles or better still I like to put forward an objective point of view. I just hope I've got these in the correct order, no doubt I'll be brought to task sooner rather than later. 

Please forgive the lengthy post. I believe it to be an issue worth pursuing and rather than copying vast tracts of previous material I have analysed the relevant posts in an objective manner and quoted various parts using 
double asterisk symbols. I have tried to show agreement and objection albeit with more of one than the other. 

**Please be very careful DEADlock, dead could be the operative word.** 

Strong emotive word to use in a reply that is too vague in context. 

**I cant see how having these fantastic locks are going to help, on a commercial vehicle fantastic. But on a camper dangerous and pointless.** 

The words "fantastic locks" detract from the actual description used in the original post. No such claim or assertion was made. The second sentence in the hands of a skilled advocate could even be construed as libellous. 

**So cab doors are scure with super dooper Deadlocks.** 

The description used, once again, tries to detract from the original post. 

**You would still have the weak caravan door which can be opened at will as easy as winking, windows that are also easy to get past. The Windows BTW are far more secure than any caravan door.** 

Leaving aside the obvious, ie we're still talking about motorhomes, not caravans, it is widely accepted that from a security point of view, the door into the habitation area of most motorhomes could be regarded as the weakest point. Whether or not they can be opened at will and/or as easy as winking is dependent entirely on the skill and/or determination of the person trying to open it. 
The reference to windows might possibly mean that they too are easy to open by the aforementioned person. 
The second sentence is in my opinion a pure contradiction of terms and has no relevance to the original post. 


**Answer :: No point leaving it open and free to be taken, but what is the point of spending £280 on 2 locks for a "STRAW house"?** 

How was the figure of £280 arrived at? Straw house - bad analogy. We're talking about motorhomes. 

**If they could be operated both sides I would agree, but you need really to leave the Key in on inside when sleeping in the vehicle. ** 

Agreed, that would be the most obvious place to have the key. 

**But if its £140 per lock with only single sided opening what would dual opening cost?** 

How was this figure arrived at? I think from reading the original post that the product has been fully described. It would be the most sensible thing therefore to direct this question to a manufacturer of a dual opening product. 


**The other safety issue I could see is that of every day unlocking all the cab deadlocks, how long till it would become a chore and you would be driving with 2 exits blocked.** 

Assuming of course that the majority of motorhome owners with standard two door cab, base vehicles, would become so lazy that they couldn't even be bothered to use the cab doors anymore in normal day to day usage. Once again, a bad analogy to use which only serves to detract from the original post. 

**I'll reverse the question slightly what good will the deadlocks actually do ?** 
Answered in the preceding paragraph by you with........**Deadlocks would deter the casual scrote from the cab (snipped)** 

No explanation required as this is all that any security system is designed to achieve. If the opportunist thief then decides that there may be an easier way to achieve his/her objective then that is what they will do regardless of how strong/weak your particular security system appears to be. 

**I did post a fire service link last time this came up, they hate the idea of all this security, they attend to many fires where the security as caused deaths.** 

I think this is where my problem begins. I, as any other user of this forum, can only relate to the fact that we choose, rightly or wrongly, to associate certain subject matter with the general ethos of the particular forum we are participating in. The subject matter in this instance related to deadlocks in motorhomes. I am still of the firm opinion that anyone reading the quoted sentence shown above would quite rightly assume that it referred to security in motorhomes, especially when taken in context with the very next sentence shown below. 

**What goods the smoke alarm if you cant exit the vehicle?** 

**BTW I have actually spoke to firemen about this and their view is that losing some property is far preferable to losing people.** 

This is a vague reference to a conversation which involves the loss of property and people. It does not include any direct or indirect link to the subject matter. Simply put, the words, "about this" could refer to any tragedy of whatever proportion anywhere in the world. 

**While on the subject of Dwellings ring and ask what building regs would have to say about fitting your house with deadlocks that can only be keyed from the outside. ask fire service same question. The mistake Paul is making is treating a motorhome the same as a commercial vehicle, the motorhome is a dwelling.** 

From the outset we were never on the subject of dwellings and this only serves to confuse the original post even more. Building Regulations and or the Fire Regulations have no bearing whatsoever on motor vehicles. For the purposes of the law, a motor vehicle is not a dwelling. In relation to a charge of burglary, a motorhome MAY be classed as a 'temporary dwelling' IF it can be shown that it was in full time occupation at the material time and in a permanent location. 

**but how does a deadlock actually help? OK the cab is now Harder to get into, but (snipped)** 

That is all. No ifs, buts, whys or wherefores. 

**You seem to have misread my post, I did not say or imply that the fire service were refering to motorhome deaths the link I posted before showed houses with OTT security and urged people to think again about security versus getting out alive. The fire Service did a door to door in our area and while chatting, I discussed motorhomes they agree that people getting out as got to be more important than protecting a few possesions.** 

I did not misread the post. A previous analysis of the relevant post shows how the confusion was created by you. Can you give information to the relevant link. Of course there always will be a conflict between security and safety in a motorhome but to describe certain security products in the way that you do at the start of the thread is not a very objective way of approaching the subject. Objective reasoning does not include alarmist or scathing attacks or any language which may reasonably be interpreted as such. 

**Keyed both sides deadlocks would be good on a solid panel van conversion, would be safe at night with key in, good line of defence when vehicle unattended in public area, out of sight the windows are a weakness.** 

This is a good example of sensible, reasoned information which should have been included right from the start. 

**On a flimsey the caravan door could be barred at night, but in daytime situation you can walk up and open it in a flash even with a deadlock in place, so it would be pretty pointless spending all that money.** 

This is a contradiction. Think about it. Why couldn't the caravan style door be barred in the same way during the day, with or without a deadlock in place. There are no other variables included, such as occupied or not, therefore your statement that it could be opened in a flash even with a deadlock negates the previous assertion that it could be barred at night. This then leads one to believe that regardless of the barring aspect, the door could be opened in a flash at night too. 

**Chains or shoot bolts are a good idea as a nightime "layer" as you say if you can find a secure fixingpoint in a flimsy. This is the main point against deadlocks the throw is not enough to stop a prise attack, the flimsyness of door and frame requires a longish throw.** 

A reasonably objective statement. The part where you say "this is the main point against deadlocks" was particularly heartening as your previous main points against them were somewhat venomous. 

**Has a Fireman (ex?) would you reccomend blocking the exits by using Deadlocks that can only be keyed externaly while sleeping in the Vehicle?** 

Regardless of being (ex?) or otherwise, an expert has given a reasonable viewpoint which I for one couldn't challenge even if I simply wished to be pedantic. I cannot for the life of me see how the scenario of the above post has been arrived at given the precise wording of the original post. No-one has ever suggested "blocking exits", the subject matter is security of external doors. 
Lets try another pointless analogy - should we recommend not taking alcohol in case we fall into a deep slumber and fail to see, hear or smell an emergency situation. Likewise with medication (snip endless list) and all this regardless of whether doors were locked/unlocked, held together with pieces of string, etc. 

**If building regs applied it would Not be allowed, the Fire service websites that I have seen all reccomend being very careful about blocking yourself in.** 

They don't apply so there's no point introducing this into the debate. Security and safety will always be a fine balancing act. Any Fire Service websites that I have looked at are quite clear on the security and safety issues in dwellings and commercial premises. I have not seen anything specific regarding motorhomes but the average owner should be able to relate to the similar issues. 

**What is the point of Deadlocking Cab and leaving rest vunerable?** 

I think this point has been answered by you and we are all in agreement that it is simply to deter the opportunist criminal. 

**Its like padlocking the handles of a plastic bag togethor and imagining its secure.** 

No it's not. This is such a bad analogy to make and only detracts from your previous objective remarks. 

**And all doors constitute a means of escape, locking any beyond use is adding to the danger. some vehicles have mid to rear caravan doors, for people sleeping in dinnette or overcab the front (cab) may be the easiest and quickest.** 

No-one is suggesting that doors should be rendered "beyond use". The Fire Service are quite clear on this point and you yourself have implemented an escape plan with your family. A forum member has given expert advice on the subject of escape plans and this goes back to the point already made of the fine balance between security and safety. 

**Happily the Building regs would not allow anyone to leave only one exit useable.** 

The Building Regulations are not applicable. 

**The fire Service too frown on limiting escape options.** 

Everyone is agreed on that point, but in relation to the subject matter, ie. fitting deadlocks to motorhome doors, there doesn't appear to be an official Fire Service policy of advice for or against. 


**Of course if anyone wants to put themselves and or their family in more danger than needed they can block off as many escape routes as they like.** 

This is an emotional statement designed to prey on peoples fear. I haven't quoted it exactly but it is something you yourself mentioned in a previous lengthy debate. There is no factual evidence to support the claim that occupants of motorhomes will be placed in anymore danger of death or serious injury by fitting deadlocks. It is something I mentioned in an earlier post but the wording was used to allege that the claim was never made in the first instance. I can only ask again, a direct question this time, is there any evidence to show that occupants of motorhomes will be placed in anymore danger of death or serious injury by fitting deadlocks.That should be clear enough now. Secondly, I may have misread this latest quote above as you mention blocking off as many escape routes etc. etc. You don't actually use the word deadlocks, so maybe it's not relevant in the context of the original post. Deadlocks are only used to secure the doors not block off escape routes. However, word play can be used to confuse security with safety and it would be pointless going over the issues of opening from the inside, outside or both. 

**From the beggining here I have only asked people to think very carefully about fitting deadlocks.** 

Perhaps it was the way you worded your 'request' that led to so much confusion. 

**The other point of course is what is the point of having cab doors very secure and what amounts to an open door on the side?** 

A bad analogy just to round things off. The caravan style door manufacturers make a product which is constricted by the overall design of habitation areas in the 'majority' of motorhomes. A door into the habitation area of motorhomes is no more/ less secure than any other door. It will only stop the opportunist criminal. Statistical evidence shows that this type of criminal is the most prevalent and there are many initiatives in place where objective advice can be readily obtained. The fitting of security measures is part of that general advice. Whether or not it is financially viable or economic to so do will depend very much on individual circumstances such as the value of property and location. Nothing more, nothing less.

Kev


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Kev

My main points

Locking any door beyond use is dangerous, I dont need Building regs or the fire service to tell me that it is dangerous, I rang this morning (Fire service) and they agree anyone who locked any vehicle door externally whilst occupied is a complete and utter **** expletive deleted. He was amazed that a fireman serving or ex would even consider blocking any exit at all when occupied. Easy as wink is true I am not a thief but have opened a vehicle for someone and its really easy, for anyone engaged in that line of work it would be quicker for them to open the door than you with the keys.

Bearing in mind that the caravan door is a breeze (easily demonstrable fact) to enter what is the point of having expensive good locks on the cab doors and then have what amounts to an open door on the side? hence the plastic bag analogy.

Calling a lock super dooper is a compliment and is not libelous, please lock up Libel or take some legal advice.


Re assuming what my fire service link said dont assume. and better yet dont make up your own version of what you imagine it says without looking.

Re your apparent confusion over deadlocks and caravan doors, the throw on a normal deadlock is not enough to prevent a prise attack. At night it could be literally "barred" with bar or Large shoot bolt either of which could be quickly undone in emergency. You could of course BAR during day and leave via cab and deadlock then. BTW Attach a shoot bolt to caravan door, this is only any good because of the noise it would create as scrote prised the door, the door material doesnt hold screws well at all.

Of course its down to the individual if putting expensive locks on makes you "feel" more secure (nothing said so far makes me believe you will be any better off at all) thats up to you.

But please consider the safety aspect and dont lock yourself or your family in.

George


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## 93514 (May 1, 2005)

My points still haven't been addressed. Questions remain unanswered.

You have simply continued in a quite obvious tradition of word play to try and cloud the relevant issues.

I offered you the libel advice free of charge. Please read the relevant post then apply my advice.

I'll leave you with the opportunity of having the last word as always, because like so many others on this and other forums, who try and have a sensible, reasoned debate with you, in the end it becomes a totally pointless exercise.

Kev


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Sorry Kevin

Cant put the points any simpler, they have all been made I think.

George


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## paulharrison (May 1, 2005)

Hi George
Your points are noted the main reson for the deadlocks are to make the cab more secure, every day we hear about people sleeping wild in france being broken into, not by the caravan door but the cab, I am working on a caravan door lock which will be a bar fitted across the door on the inside, key operated on both sides, it is a rack and is moved in and out by the key. With ref to the cab lock I am modifing the ones I fitted on my peugeot cab and fitting a double cylinder making it key operated from both sides the sliding door on my van I fitted a double cylinder to make this my fire escape as its by the bed.

Paul


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## 88741 (May 9, 2005)

Good to see you are still with us Paul, what you are proposing sounds very good to me and I am sure a lot of others on the forum would view such locks with keen interest. Keep us posted please.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Paul

Double keyed sounds promising for the cab ones, or is a simple latch if fitted out of reach to easy to bypass by the crims?

The Caravan rack sounds promising too, are you extending the throw on lock and hinge side?

George

BTW you can send my consultancy cheque to the usuall address.


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## 93514 (May 1, 2005)

Allow me to second that Paul. The bar idea sounds very interesting as I already have additional cab door locks fitted.

Keep up the good work.

Kev


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Hooray!

After wading through all these pages of banter (is that the correct term?) we finally get to the point that I think I tried to explain within the 1st two pages of this post.

IMHO the ideal set up for a m/homer would be deadlocks for both cab AND conversion doors that are lockable from both inside AND outside, in addition i think i explained i was toying with the idea of a safety bar across the caravan door for extra safety whilst sleeping in the van, permitting easy exit if req'd. It seems Paul (harrison) is on the ball!

I'd be interested in your product Paul, any idea of how long before it's ready to market and some rough ideas of cost?


pete.


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## 88826 (May 9, 2005)

paulharrison said:


> I am working on a caravan door lock which will be a bar fitted across the door on the inside, key operated on both sides, it is a rack and is moved in and out by the key.
> 
> Hi Paul
> I'm sure there are many motorhomers more concerned about the fragility of the habitation access door and it would be interesting to see a prototype of the lock you describe.
> ...


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## Brambles (May 12, 2005)

And for the next episode we will deal with deadlocks for the lockers! :? 

Much easier I would think, but needs decent locks as well on some vehicles for when M'home is unoccupied as access into vehicle from lockers is often easy..same for garage.

Jon.


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## paulharrison (May 1, 2005)

Hi Don 

The caravan door lock will go top to bottom of the door locking in the floor and a box striker above the door so even fit someone rips the door open the locking bar will stay in place, as caravan doors are quite narrow it would be hard for anybody to squeeze past. It is key operated on both sides and will work on the same key as the cab deadlocks.

Paul.


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

Hello All

Been reading this thread with much interest and look forward to its progression.....esp the bar on the m/h door. 
As the seats in my m/h swivel round in the cab, surely anyone would have difficulty entering??? Or not?? :?: 

On the same subject of security in M/h/ there is an article in this months' C & CC mag, page 28....

Quote... "How I wish I'd heard of SmartWater before my car was broken into at the end of last year. Using a harmless solution to mark any property with a unique code, it is very difficult to remove from skin, clothing and footwear etc.
So, if a thief nicks your stuff, police can identiy the culprit from the coded particles stuck to him.
The system is ideal for marking and tracing caravans and motorhomes. ATA Security Systems - the company behind a wide range of m/h anti-theft initiatives - has teamed up with SmartWater Technology Ltd to offer us a security package. For £199, you get life membership to SmartWater and a highly effective coding system. A separate coding system for other possessions - awning, laptop, is also included. Your forensic code is stored on the National Security Register anbd is accesible by the police." unquote..... 
It goes on to say that the crims have known about it for years and will be v. put off by a warning in the window.

Not much good abroad, I think, but would it be useful in Uk???

I was always told to take my dog (who is v protective in ALL circumstance) and a baseball bat, but I can't get her to use it!!! :roll:

sugarplum


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## 93514 (May 1, 2005)

Swivel seats - good, from the point of view that the opportunist criminal likes to have unobstructed entry/exit plan. 

Smartwater - excellent product and I have used it extensively for garage contents - tools, karts etc. BUT my usage is restricted to fairy unique items which are restricted to fairly unique activities. Therefore the criminal has a much less chance of successfully disposing of the stolen property. 

I think a more general application of this technology depends very much on the detection rate by police forces and extent of recovery of stolen property. It certainly makes identification very simple. 

As far as the motorhome application is concerned it could be considered as part of an overall security package especially if valuable items are carried onboard. However the main direction of this thread seems to be prevention of access to the vehicle which to many is more important than the monetary value of contents. 

Kev


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

Hi Kev

Yes I agree a lot would depend on the Police follow up, but as you said before, it's perhaps another layer of deterrent if the thief sees the sticker in the window....they may read it as you being v security conscious and therefore other have other devices installed.

A friend of mine also has a personal alarm which, a well as making a noise, it has a spray facility that marks the attacker/intruder for up to 48 hours.

But as you say...this thread is about pevention of access and not how it's acted on.

sugarplum


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Hi paulharrison,

i think you must have missed my query on a previous page in all the banter,



> I'd be interested in your product Paul, any idea of how long before it's ready to market and some rough ideas of cost?


Any ideas yet?

pete.


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## Motorhomersimpson (May 9, 2005)

Hi Paul,

I would be interested as well, and as Pete said, would like to know more if possible please.


MHS...Rob


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## paulharrison (May 1, 2005)

Hi PeeJay

The Caravan door lock will cost about £125.00 D.I.Y and we will be offering a fitting service, I will be fitting at some of the motorhome shows or at our workshop which is near Worcester, I am also developing a web site showing pictures of the locks at different fitting stages. 

Paul


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## paulharrison (May 1, 2005)

Thank you for all your replies, we now have the peugeot boxer cab door locks ready and will be fitting them at the Warrington show at easter, 
I have taken george Telfords comments and made both locks keyed inside and out for Fire escape reasons. if you need any info on the locks call me on 01905 20999 or drop in my shop at Harrison Locks 3 Pump st Worcester WR1 2QX tea pots always ready.

Thanks again Paul


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## Brambles (May 12, 2005)

Hi ,

I was looking at new Motorhomes on Sunday, as one does when ever passing a big dealer... well sometimes anyway.

What I did notice is big improvements on the habitation door locking mechanisms and on an Auto-Trail in particular it had two point locking using a sort of swivelling pin arrangement which also clamps the door closed. The pin having a head to lock into the catch plate making forcing of door hard if not impossible without tearing out the catch plate. being in two places say about 16 inchs from top and bottom of door also adds to security as well as stopping door distorting arising to gaps. Certainly looked impressive and better than the normal set up. But again it's weak point might be the actual key mechanism part. 
Jon.


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## 88741 (May 9, 2005)

Good news about the locks Paul, seeing as the forum has helped with the design, especially George :wink: hope you are going to advertise properly on the site. Just give Dave a PM or go through the adverising portal on the top tool bar, sure he wil be delighted to welcome you on board :wink:


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## paulharrison (May 1, 2005)

Hi Jon

Was the lock on the Auto-Trail keyed on the inside or was it just a knob to open the door, I will have a look when I can 

Thanks Paul

Hi Helen

I will take your advice and post a add 

Paul


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## Brambles (May 12, 2005)

Hi Paul,

The lock cylinder was in the openng handle as normal so security would be as good as the lock barrel and handle mechanism. I do not know if it worked on the disengage or block handle method. Inside was another pull handle for opening the door just like a car. There was a button inside you pushed down to lock. What I liked about it was the actual catch plates and bolting method - neat, secure and could be made as an after fit for any door but the rods for joining mechanisims to handles would have to be enclosed for neatness - same as your system I would imagine.

Also I liked the fact it was the normal catch for the door as well. 
I also saw it on another make of coachbuilt but cannot remember the manufacturer so looks like it is a new standard part. The weakest part seemed to be the external key lock and opening handle. If that is (or could be made) tamper proof I think it would be a pretty good system.
Jon.


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