# Reversed polarity



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

How do I get over the reversed polarity I have in the storage place, it seems to happen with all the German sockets, Jürgen had to do a lot of fiddling with the wiring here to get a proper connection. Is there something that needs to be done in the van?

I have looked online for remedies they say the 2 wires are reversed, but as the plug can be used either way and I tried turning it and no different still shows reversed polarity.

The hookup I am using is not the big blue connection its the usual for the van and then a normal house plug for the socket. Which wires need to be changed, in the van plug or the normal one ?
Like this but 2 pins and a long cable.


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

JanHank said:


> How do I get over the reversed polarity I have in the storage place, it seems to happen with all the German sockets, Jürgen had to do a lot of fiddling with the wiring here to get a proper connection. Is there something that needs to be done in the van?
> 
> I have looked online for remedies they say the 2 wires are reversed, but as the plug can be used either way and I tried turning it and no different still shows reversed polarity.
> 
> ...


Perhaps the problem is the supply not being a genuine Live And Neutral system but possibly a balanced 220v transformered supply? What are you using for checking for reversed polarity?


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

rayc said:


> Perhaps the problem is the supply not being a genuine Live And Neutral system but possibly a balanced 220v transformered supply? What are you using for checking for reversed polarity?


It´s on the Sargent in the van Ray, there is an orange light for reversed and a green for OK.
I am only using the hookup to charge the batteries, but don´t like leaving it on reversed in case something happens.


----------



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I Didnt think reverse polarity was anything to worry about on modern vans. Seems to have been the general view for some time.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

barryd said:


> I Didnt think reverse polarity was anything to worry about on modern vans. Seems to have been the general view for some time.


I have just read different barry. https://twerntontour.wordpress.com/2015/01/03/how-to-goose-your-leisure-batteries-reverse-polarity/

In yet another forum topic that I had read in the lead-up to full-timing there had been a piece from an electrics expert stating that it is OK to be on Reverse Polarity insofar as appliances will still operate OK - just don't mess with them by exposing wires and fiddling around, etc.

I therefore took the view that we would be OK (as we had been for one week or so) plus it would now be a hassle to call the site geezer back to re-connect the 2-pin Euro plug the other way round.

WRONG!!!!!

What the forum 'expert' had failed to mention and what I had failed to consider was the impact on the Leisure Batteries from the *Sargent PSU Charger which, in essence, reverse the polarity over time in the batteries and render them pretty much useless.*

That had to be what happened!!

I'm not sure what else was happening when the solar was supplying a charge to them through the Fox Regulator!!

It really doesn't bear thinking about - it is possible for batteries to explode when subjected to this kind of treatment - we had been lucky (as had our pitch neighbours no doubt!).

I am no electrics expert but had trusted in what I had read from a forum expert - lesson.

Leisure Batteries are silly money in Spain - saw them @ €275 …..each!! - I had paid something like £220 for both (actual amount is in the 'Set-up £'s' page of this blog.

The decision was made to buy a decent sized car battery and operate with that until we get back to the UK.

I sourced one at the AlCampo Supermercado in Motril and chose the top one that they had - @ 91.5Ah - and paid €94.95 for it - fitted it to Twernt today and tested everything out in isolation and all 12v lights, etc. are working hunky-dory.

The goosed *Varta* batteries are staying with me as I've also read that, in some cases, it may be possible to take them to a battery centre where they have specialist chargers that can recover batteries from this type of cock-up.

I am also thinking that the Oxford Maximiser battery charger that I have may do a similar job - it is designed to restore lead-acid or gell batteries from an almost write-off position back to a usable state. Motorcycle intelligent trickle charge batteries are clever little things so this must be worth a try when we're next on EHU - better still, let's wait until we're back in the UK and can then place the battery 50 yards away from anything an explosion could do damage to.

Should be fun.

I have recorded the above in the hope that it may trigger something for all other newbies to check for whenever they are on EHU.


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

JanHank said:


> It´s on the Sargent in the van Ray, there is an orange light for reversed and a green for OK.
> I am only using the hookup to charge the batteries, but don´t like leaving it on reversed in case something happens.


As I said I suspect that the supply is not a genuine Live/Neutral system. It could be two phases of a 3 phase supply which gives 220v between the two Live phases.

I doubt anything will "happen" if it is left alone. When I worked in Saudi Arabia we used 110 to 220v step up and down transformers extensively and none of these use a Live and Neutral in the real sense of the word.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

rayc said:


> As I said I suspect that the supply is not a genuine Live/Neutral system. It could be two phases of a 3 phase supply which gives 220v between the two Live phases.
> 
> I doubt anything will "happen" if it is left alone. When I worked in Saudi Arabia we used 110 to 220v step up and down transformers extensively and none of these use a Live and Neutral in the real sense of the word.


 Ah yes, but was it charging batteries, see what I copied above.


----------



## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Jan, the problem you are seeing is effectively a UK one, the way UK electrical wiring and control circuitry is configured relies on the live wire being connected to the live side of the supply and negative / neutral to the neutral side because historically all UK single phase switches are single pole i.e. only switch the live.
In Europe for a very long time all switches have been double pole i.e. they switch (turn on or off) both live and neutral at the same time.

Whilst all of your consumers will work if connected to reverse polarity on a live isolated only system, there is the potential for injury as it is possible for you to think an item is safe as is "switched off" whereas in reality only the neutral side is switched off and the consumer, kettle, toaster etc. will still be live, if you then proceed to touch part of the item that is live you will likely complete the circuit through your body to earth, with nasty consequence.

Most modern European vans will be fitted with an RCD on the incoming supply which is a safety electrical device, RCDs are designed to disconnect the supply (trip) when seeing a fault quickly enough to prevent serious injury.

If your van is equipped with an RCD you really don't need to be concerned by reversed polarity, however for peace of mind swop the live and neutral wires in the plug you are using to connect to your source in the storage shed.

There are different answers if referring to different countries but the above is basically why the Europeans don't get concerned over reverse polarity.

Quick thought as to why you had the previous problem, maybe one part of the system you were trying to connect (van or house) had the earth and neutral crossed.

.


----------



## Ozzyjohn (Sep 3, 2007)

Jan,

Fairly detailed and lengthy explanation here:
https://caravanchronicles.com/guides/understanding-reverse-polarity/

If you want extra reassurance scroll down to the last question and answer at the end of the piece.

Regards,
John


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

JanHank said:


> Ah yes, but was it charging batteries, see what I copied above.


Ac does not directly charge the batteries that is done by a dc charger. In my opinion it would be a very poor charger that did not isolate it's ac supply side from it's dc output stage. I rarely bother to do anything about reverse polarity on my jaunts to France and Spain but one thing I do know is that the dc output remains at the correct dc polarity whatever the polarity of the ac supply to the Schaudt Electroblock.
Perhaps Sargent could provide a reason why their charger apparently can reverse the battery voltage?

I am not a disbeliever but it is not easy to reverse the voltage of a battery. 
https://www.batterystuff.com/blog/battery-myth-can-a-battery-reverse-polarity.html


----------



## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Having just read the item you posted above, I'd be really interested in what other educated in the subject people have to say.

A battery charger is basically a transformer and transformers are not polarity conscious.

.


----------



## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Ozzyjohn said:


> Jan,
> 
> Fairly detailed and lengthy explanation here:
> https://caravanchronicles.com/guides/understanding-reverse-polarity/
> ...


Thanks for that and an interesting piece by someone that has a degree of believability and at least someone agrees with me.

.


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

eurajohn said:


> Having just read the item you posted above, I'd be really interested in what other educated in the subject people have to say.
> 
> A battery charger is basically a transformer and transformers are not polarity conscious.
> 
> .


A transformer is a ac device for converting ac voltages. To charge a battery a rectifier is required and its output dc voltage polarity should be independent of the ac input which is in any event reversing itself 50 times a second.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

rayc said:


> A transformer is a ac device for converting ac voltages. To charge a battery a rectifier is required and its output voltage polarity should be independent of the ac input which is in any event reversing itself 50 times a second.


I guess this means I am over reacting and should just plug in and leave it to do its job.

I am trying to contact Sargent, but have waited so long for a technician and still no reply, bit expensive when I am using someone else's phone.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Rang the man to plug it in about an hour ago and just heard the fire siren going


----------



## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

If it bothers you get a Male and female blue plug/socket set. Connect them with a short length of cable. Wire one of them correctly, and the other with the + & - reversed.

That’s what I have done.



Then, if you discover a reversed polarity situation just put the above short lead somewhere between the bollard and your MH. The lead will reverse the reverse polarity, so it will be correct when it gets into your MH.


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Mrplodd said:


> If it bothers you get a Male and female blue plug/socket set. Connect them with a short length of cable. Wire one of them correctly, and the other with the + & - reversed.
> 
> That's what I have done.
> 
> Then, if you discover a reversed polarity situation just put the above short lead somewhere between the bollard and your MH. The lead will reverse the reverse polarity, so it will be correct when it gets into your MH.


But only if the monitoring circuit sees a genuine Live and Neutral. If it is a non referenced supply then as is the case with the OP then reversing wires will not acheive anything.


----------



## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

I really wish I had some idea of what you are talking about Ray! To my understanding ANY electrical supply must have a + & - My device makes sure they are “the right way round” 

I have used the short cross-wired adapter for the last 14+ years (when reversed polarity has been detected) without any issues at all (most of my MH’s had Sargent PSU’s) 

It doesn’t bother me but Mrs P simply cannot be convinced reversed polarity is safe. The lead cost me very little to make up and it keeps her happy. So I thought I would share my way of dealing with the issue in case anyone else wished to copy it.

It simple, it’s cheap, and most importantly, it works!!

Andy


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Mrplodd said:


> I really wish I had some idea of what you are talking about Ray! To my understanding ANY electrical supply must have a + & - My device makes sure they are "the right way round"
> 
> I have used the short cross-wired adapter for the last 14+ years (when reversed polarity has been detected) without any issues at all (most of my MH's had Sargent PSU's)
> 
> ...


That is where the OP started. He has reverse polarity whichever way his continental plug is inserted. Reverse polarity will be detected if it is a floating 220v supply without the negative being referenced to earth. There is no + or - as far as ac is concerned.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

AC polarity is not a problem apart from UK safety. Everything will still work.
DC polarity is very important in more ways than one. Rotation and chassis.

Ray.


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

rayc said:


> That is where the OP started. He has reverse polarity whichever way his continental plug is inserted. Reverse polarity will be detected if it is a floating 220v supply without the negative being referenced to earth. There is no + or - as far as ac is concerned.


'negative' should of course be NEUTRAL in the above reply. It is easy to get ac and dc electrical terms mixed up.


----------



## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

You can only detect the "live" connection by comparing both live and neutral to earth. 
Live and earth will show mains voltage across them neutral an earth will show almost no voltage across them. 
But if you have no earth connection. Then with AC mains there is no real difference between live and neutral and you can't detect polarity. 
Which is why swopping the plug orientation (which effectively swops the 2 wires) makes no difference.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

rayc said:


> That is where the OP started. He has reverse polarity whichever way his continental plug is inserted. Reverse polarity will be detected if it is a floating 220v supply without the negative being referenced to earth. There is no + or - as far as ac is concerned.


Getting our + & - muddled here coz he is a she 😺 and she has learnt a lot and it seems a few more are better informed. 
Thanks everyone for your advice. I hope the batteries will soon be in good working order.


----------



## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

I take it the fire siren wasn't for you Jan?!

Hope you're all sorted. I also have a short lead like Ploddy's. My head hurts trying to understand electricity.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

jiwawa said:


> I take it the fire siren wasn't for you Jan?!
> 
> Hope you're all sorted. I also have a short lead like Ploddy's. My head hurts trying to understand electricity.


That was a joke Jean, it just seemed funny to me that I had phoned the chap to plug in and a short while after the siren went.
I will go tomorrow and check the batteries and look at the short cables we have, maybe there is one for reversed polarity, I know there's at least one for English sockets to German for inside the van.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

As I remember Jan German sockets can be easily reversed. At least they could in my Hobby motorhome.

Ray.


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I wouldn't worry about it Jan. We've had several Autotrails with Sargent control boards. The reverse polarity light sometimes lit and sometimes didn't. At forst I worried about it. Tried reversing wires to make it right but to no avail. Eventually I just stopped worrying about it. The vans we've had since didn't have a warning so now magically we have no problems. 

I have a feeling that the Sargent will warn for more than just one reason, as someone said. I think that any damage that might have been done would have happened quickly and would have been pretty obvious. You know, popping noises, burning smells, flames maybe. In the absence of those I'd forget it.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I will report shortly what happening, if anything, I just want the batteries to come up to scratch before I even think of spending a night away off grid (is that the right expression :laugh
No plans yet, but as we haven´t had any real winter here yet, no snow that is, who knows what I might decide. I still keep chopping and changing my mind about things, different thought every day. I´m missing my home now for instance, there may be a flat becoming free in this road, what would be my chance of finding a place to rent in the UK, etc. etc. What I have decided is I will not buy another house, I´ll rent where someone else can look after the repairs etc.


----------



## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Now this must be a first so make a note of it everybody 

Erneboy and I actually AGREE on something 

Andy

Happy New Year Alan


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

And to you Andy.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I am at the van, both batteries are down,
12.0v 12.1L
The step didn’t drop properly, it still reads reversed p.


----------



## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Doesn't sound good Jan.

Sorry I'm no help, just bringing your post to the top. Maybe it's there already - I'm having my own problems with internet!


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

JanHank said:


> I am at the van, both batteries are down,
> 12.0v 12.1L
> The step didn't drop properly, it still reads reversed p.


Is this after standing outside or now when inside and plugged in Jan.?
Don't moan I haven't been following as I'm sharing myself about.

Ray.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

raynipper said:


> Is this after standing outside or now when inside and plugged in Jan.?
> Don't moan I haven't been following as I'm sharing myself about.
> 
> Ray.


I was plugged in still


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

What Ray said. Are those the voltages when you're plugged in Jan?


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

As said above your post Alan it was still plugged in and the step was ver lazy which shows the battery is not on full power.

I also looked at the gas situation, I must have left the heater on after our trip to the Rhein because both bottles are now empty.
I still can´t see where to turn them off though.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Well two possibilities are buggered batteries or charger not putting out.
If the van has been plugged in and theoretically charging overnight and the batteries are still down at 12v or thereabouts, more checks need to be taken.
Are all other 12v appliances powering up? Is the mains power really 240v.?

Ray.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

raynipper said:


> Well two possibilities are buggered batteries or charger not putting out.
> If the van has been plugged in and theoretically charging overnight and the batteries are still down at 12v or thereabouts, more checks need to be taken.
> Are all other 12v appliances powering up? Is the mains power really 240v.?
> 
> Ray.


It is now plugged into the house with a green light where it charged up before. It can only be the wrong connection at the storage place.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

JanHank said:


> It is now plugged into the house with a green light where it charged up before. It can only be the wrong connection at the storage place.


Ah, does that mean there was no 'green' light when plugged into storage?
Maybe take a small side lamp to check where or where not your getting power.

Ray.


----------



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Still begs the question as to why they were both down to 12.0. Even if they were not charging in the storage. I leave mine off hookup but I disconnect the cab battery and isolate the hab battery. I can leave them all winter like that and when I connect them they are (normally) both fine. Something is draining power on both or they are knackered. Sounds like something is not right with the hookup in the storage to me. Could you just not use the storage hookup and isolate both batteries or at least the hab one then just give them a charge at the house or a run out every few weeks?

Tell the bloke you dont need the hookup and negotiate a discount.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

raynipper said:


> Ah, does that mean there was no 'green' light when plugged into storage?
> Maybe take a small side lamp to check where or where not you´re getting power.
> 
> Ray.


No Raymond dearest thats been the trouble all along, it was reversed polarity which is an orange light.:grin2:


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

barryd said:


> Still begs the question as to why they were both down to 12.0. Even if they were not charging in the storage. I leave mine off hookup but I disconnect the cab battery and isolate the hab battery. I can leave them all winter like that and when I connect them they are (normally) both fine. Something is draining power on both or they are knackered. Sounds like something is not right with the hookup in the storage to me. Could you just not use the storage hookup and isolate both batteries or at least the hab one then just give them a charge at the house or a run out every few weeks?
> 
> Tell the bloke you dont need the hookup and negotiate a discount.


There is a button on the Sargent that shuts down all the electricity (top left) I suppose that may be a possibility.
Colours are a bit different on the picture, but you can see the reversed polarity is a different colour, mine is bright orange.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

JanHank said:


> No Raymond dearest thats been the trouble all along, it was reversed polarity which is an orange light.:grin2:


But it should still charge as long as you do have power.?

Ray.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

raynipper said:


> But it should still charge as long as you do have power.?
> 
> Ray.


Well it didn´t did it, the orange light tells you its on power but reversed and it didn´t buddy work.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Grrrrrrrr. well turn the plug round. Not that it (should) matter.

Ray.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

raynipper said:


> Grrrrrrrr. well turn the plug round. Not that it (should) matter.
> 
> Ray.


Oh dear you really haven´t been concentrating, I have turned it round and it still don´t werk.
Jürgen had to do a lot of fiddling with wires in the fuse box here to get this one socket to work.
It´s all the UK fault having an electrical system which is easy to understand and not complicated like wot it is here.:frown2:


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Just outa interest and it won't make any difference to your 'problem' Jan. But can you take a house bedside light into the van and just see if the mains plugs are all actually working? It should light in every plug irrespective of which way round the polarity is.

Ray.


----------



## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

I'd the only difference between house and storage supply the supply socket? If so, that would indicate a problem with storage supply? Well, maybe not a problem as such but somehow incompatible with your system - especially as Jurgen has modified it?


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

raynipper said:


> Just outa interest and it won't make any difference to your 'problem' Jan. But can you take a house bedside light into the van and just see if the mains plugs are all actually working? It should light in every plug irrespective of which way round the polarity is.
> 
> Ray.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

:frown2:I shouldn´t really be left out on my own.:crying:


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

jiwawa said:


> I'd the only difference between house and storage supply the supply socket? If so, that would indicate a problem with storage supply? Well, maybe not a problem as such but somehow incompatible with your system - especially as Jurgen has modified it?


No Jean he hasn't modified my system he has altered the supply from the house.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

JanHank said:


> :frown2:I shouldn´t really be left out on my own.:crying:


You need a Hurrggggg.

Ray.


----------



## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

JanHank said:


> /images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_sad.pngI shouldn´t really be left out on my own./images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_crying.png


Tip of the Day........

Create a written guide to explain and remind self of the procedures re charging batteries, gas isolation, water heating etc, it'll help the fading memory us aged folk develop.

As to the eyesight, it's Specsavers for you. 😄

Terry


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I don´t know if I feel half as bad now or double as daft because if the green button isn´t pressed in the orange light is off and it was on.
Ray with a big R asked me to take a table light out while it was here and try all the sockets to see if it worked and it did, but at the storage place I plugged in the little heater and it didn´t.
The green battery light over the door I could see moving a tiny bit as if a charge is going in.

Now then, if I switch the whole system off with the shut down switch will the battery charger still work ?(when its plugged into the electric before anyone says anything) coz everyone seems to think I might have a leak :sad1::?


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

It don't seem likely Jan. But suck it an see.

Ray.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

raynipper said:


> It don't seem likely Jan. But suck it an see.
> 
> Ray.


It will have to wait until tomorrow, the chap said he will leave the gate unlocked for me to check whats going on tomorrow.

I keep forgetting to tell you what they all have here on outside sockets, its called FI Schalter which I think in real language is a circuit breaker, this is what Jürgen disconnected here to get it to work, but I am sure he won't be allowed to do the same there.
https://www.dict.cc/?s=FI+Schalter


----------



## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Jan do you know if your EC500 PSU charger needs to have the battery selection button used to determine which battery is being charged, or does it automatically switch to the engine battery once the leisure battery is charged ?

Terry


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

dghr272 said:


> Jan do you know if your EC500 PSU charger needs to have the battery selection button used to determine which battery is being charged, or does it automatically switch to the engine battery once the leisure battery is charged ?
> 
> Terry


 I have a switch where I can use either the engine or leisure battery for habitation supply.

Somewhere I read it charges the engine battery first for 4 hours then switches to the leisure for 4 and so on.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Something else I keep forgetting to say is the AH is right down, almost none existent, how can that be?

Sargent answered my email at 5.30 tonight saying to ring them, but the phone message said they were closed when I rang.


----------



## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Most of those switches don't do a lot as the MH may have a "BatteryMaster" system where power is fed to the leisure battery (ies) and surplus then to the vehicle battery.

We have that and it works well.

The switch on the Control Unit, supposedly allows us to DRAIN the leisure or the vehicle battery to supply the power needed for the habitation circuits. Presumably the intention is that off grid you would use the leisure batteries first, then the vehicle but to me, draining the vehicle battery is something to be avoided as there remains the minor problem of starting the engine which may require a massive drain in cold weather.....

I do not fancy my chances of "bump starting" on a flattish grass field......

I am not sure whether diesels CAN be "bump started". 🙃😥

I am a strong advocate for the BatteryMaster or similar system - we have solar panels fitted and using that the power supplied ensures the leisure batteries are recharged and the vehicle battery remains topped up...

But that's my choice.

PS

If the AH are well down that would suggest the batteries are fully charged,

if high then they would be flat BUT it may be that current cannot get through so the charge would be low..... 

in other words I can sit on a fence. 

If the batteries work reasonably then my first PS may be true, if not, then perhaps he latter... 🤔


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

The Sargent is the only thing it has Dave, what it came with, nothing has been added.

I am beginning to wonder if the fiat people connected everything properly after they had disconnected the batteries.


----------



## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

If things work on 12v then I would suggest they have done it properly, but as has been mentioned before, if the batteries have been flat they may have been damaged and only a battery expert with appropriate instruments can determine that...

It may be necessary to check the voltage when the engine is not running at the battery terminals c/w when it is running.

If all is correct the voltage without the engine should be around 12.4 to 12.8v and with the engine running around 14.4v.

But the voltage reading will remain elevated for up to 45 mins after it has been charging (may be less but that is a safe figure). So expertise with a voltmeter is required to ensure accurate readings are SAFELY achieved. Incorrect connection could cause a dangerous shorting and fire risk.


----------



## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

My AT needed the battery selection button to determine not only the source of 12v but also directed the charger voltage, until I fitted a 'battery master' type controller.

In case you don't have one here's a link to the EC 500 manual.

https://sargentltd.co.uk/shop/product/179/tech-spec/73

Terry


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Modern diesels can't be bump started because the stopper, fuel cut off, is electrically operated.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I can´t do as you suggest Dave because the display goes off when the engine starts up.

I have said earlier when plugged into the house the batteries charged up quite well 12.6v both V and L that was on the 20th Dec. It was standing on the car park until Tuesday I had taken it on a 30 km trip a few days earlier before I took it to the storage. I think I may need to take it to a specialist to find out what is going on.


----------



## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

You may well need a separate voltmeter connected directly to the relevant battery terminals by someone who knows how to use the equipment and how to interpret the readings. That may require the services of an auto-electrician who you should be able to locate in your area using our dear friend Mr Google....

I cannot make any suggestions as to who to use as obviously it is for your locality and I have no clues about "East Germany, from my window I can see Poland". 🤔.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

dghr272 said:


> My AT needed the battery selection button to determine not only the source of 12v but also directed the charger voltage, until I fitted a 'battery master' type controller.
> 
> In case you don't have one here's a link to the EC 500 manual.
> 
> ...


My post no. 42 shows that Terry


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Penquin said:


> You may well need a separate voltmeter connected directly to the relevant battery terminals by someone who knows how to use the equipment and how to interpret the readings. That may require the services of an auto-electrician who you should be able to locate in your area using our dear friend Mr Google....
> 
> I cannot make any suggestions as to who to use as obviously it is for your locality and I have no clues about "East Germany, from my window I can see Poland". 🤔.


I am not in East Germany Dave, I have been in Rheinland Pfalz since October until Feb 29th when I will go home.:smile2:


----------



## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

JanHank said:


> It will have to wait until tomorrow, the chap said he will leave the gate unlocked for me to check whats going on tomorrow.
> 
> I keep forgetting to tell you what they all have here on outside sockets, its called FI Schalter which I think in real language is a circuit breaker, this is what Jürgen disconnected here to get it to work, but I am sure he won't be allowed to do the same there.
> https://www.dict.cc/?s=FI+Schalter


I think you'll find the unit is not what we would refer to as a circuit breaker but what we call an RCD in which case I'd suggest you have a fault on the van.

If the house one had to be disabled to enable your van charger to work, to me that suggests a fault causing the RCD to trip.

RCD's are very sensitive typically needing a fault in excess of only 30 mA to operate.
They are sometimes referred to as earth leakage protection.

.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes John. You can push the reset button in Jan but as John says if you have a preserved fault it will just disconnect again.
I hate em, see if you can find a regular outlet.

Ray.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

eurajohn said:


> I think you'll find the unit is not what we would refer to as a circuit breaker but what we call an RCD in which case I'd suggest you have a fault on the van.
> 
> If the house one had to be disabled to enable your van charger to work, to me that suggests a fault causing the RCD to trip.
> 
> ...


I am living with an electrician in the house, unfortunately he doesn´t get home from work until dark, weekends he is never here so I am kind of goosed.

I think it needs to be a specialist in motorhomes to check it for me.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

After talking with my resident electrician last night I believe the problem I have probably nobody else has had. I am using domestic sockets not campsite sockets, all domestic outside sockets have to be wired in such a way that if something is not right with say an electric lawnmower or a drill etc. The electricity will instantly cut off to prevent the user getting a shock. He believes something has to be altered on the Navajo to overcome the problem and is going to take a day off work on Tuesday to be able to check everything in day light, bless him.

As I said near the beginning of the thread, turning the plug in the socket as suggested on the internet by who seem knowledgeable people makes no difference.
At home it is the outside sockets that have reversed polarity or blow a fuse in the house, when plugged inside the house all is well. The place we normally connect to at home Hans wired the English way and has an English plug on, that never fails :laugh:
Don't forget this is an English van being connected to an alien > supply.


----------



## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

It sounds to me that Hans had it right and if you can, I would stick with what he wired,

If it works, don't change it or in other words "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Penquin said:


> It sounds to me that Hans had it right and if you can, I would stick with what he wired,
> 
> If it works, don't change it or in other words "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".


Hans hasn´t wired anything in the Navajo Dave, he wired a socket from the mains at home.

The trouble is with the domestic German system which I am using both here at the house and it is the same where I *was* going to store it.
This morning the chap gave me back my 30€ because if I can´t get a supply from him, can´t pick up the van whenever I fancy a drive out because the gate is lock and he can´t give me a key, I would rather leave it on the carpark here where I can see it anytime and takes me not even a minute to reach it from the house. Unfortunately it is the other side of a public right of way so can´t be left connected, I have to bring it outside the house and partially block the r-o-w when I do.


----------



## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

Mrplodd said:


> If it bothers you get a Male and female blue plug/socket set. Connect them with a short length of cable. Wire one of them correctly, and the other with the + & - reversed.
> 
> That's what I have done.
> 
> Then, if you discover a reversed polarity situation just put the above short lead somewhere between the bollard and your MH. The lead will reverse the reverse polarity, so it will be correct when it gets into your MH.


That's what I use too.


----------



## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

Why don't you just disconnect the battery Jan? I dont want to tempt fate, but I've never had a problem doing that. I just reconnect the terminal and drive away. The leisure battery has a switch that does the same thing.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Or you could park it in my barn where I have every kind of socket imaginable to accommodate any kind of van including a switchable earth.

Ray.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I have had so many suggestions (non improper,----yet)

Navajo is now out in the open, I have *shut down* the power button. I now need to put the power on because there is some sun for the solar panel.
I will switch it off when the sun has gone.
Jürgen will study the wiring of the Navajo on Tuesday rayc has given me good advice about that, I just hope I can translate it for Jürgen to understand.

Bringing it the your barn *Ray *sounds a sound idea, but I would hope by the time I got there everything would be full.
Not sure if its nearer to you or to home which is approx 650 km. ?:smile2:

BTW after I shut down the power it took me a few seconds to realise why the electric step wouldn´t fold under, back in the van, switch power on, lock doors with fob, step goes in as well of course, shut off and go out of drivers door to be locked with the key. So much to think of.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

*Shut down button on the Sargent*

Very strange, I thought it meant what it said and completely shut the system down, but the fob opened the drivers door, I pressed the door opening button as force of habit and the door unlocked. 
The batteries both read 12.1v, but I never have trouble starting the engine, no laboured sound, it starts first turn.

It looks nice out at the moment, maybe will take a trip somewhere.


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

It won't shut down the cab electrics Jan, only the hab.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

erneboy said:


> It won't shut down the cab electrics Jan, only the hab.


There are 2 switches Alan, 
1. one on the Sargent unit above the door which switches off the hab area (as well as automatically when you start the engine)
2. The another switch in the cupboard that says Shutdown switch, which I assumed did as it says and shuts everything down. Isn´t that logical?:frown2:


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

How stupid, I just went to test and as you say nothing in the cab is off, why do they put a second switch to shut down the hab area when it only seems to prevent the solar panel working.
The hab area is usually switched off when nobody is in there, only left on if we are using the fan when the gas heating is needed to be left on.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

This might be of interest to Jan and others.

https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and...letter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter

Ray.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

None of that is happening, starts first turn of the key even in this cold weather.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Sorry that the storage didn’t work out Jan 

But it looks like you won’t need it anyway

We tend to leave ours on hookup because we rarely use it in the winter although I think it prob/ should be given a run out on a regular basis to keep everything working smoothly 

If the tricycle lessons work then we will be using the van more to transport the bike on days out 

Sandra


----------



## DJMotorhomer (Apr 15, 2010)

I was told by an electrician that is would only be a concern if say for instance you decided to take the back off your computer whilst plugged in and tampered with the wiring,

We have just be to Hotel Regio in Salamanca and their supply was reversed but it hindered us not, everything was fine.

Dave


----------



## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

DJMotorhomer said:


> I was told by an electrician that is would only be a concern if say for instance you decided to take the back off your computer whilst plugged in and tampered with the wiring,
> 
> We have just be to Hotel Regio in Salamanca and their supply was reversed but it hindered us not, everything was fine.
> 
> Dave


Not even then as most motorhomers computers are laptops so powered by an adapter so there is no mains in the computer just the adapter.

If you have an RDC it will trip if live finds a way to ground (via you or any other route) so that should keep you save.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

The fault has been found, I wonder who remembers I had an accident with the hookup cable at home when Hans was in hospital :frown2: it appears it was all my fault.:crying:
So sorry for all the performance, but hopefully we have all learnt something from all the expert advice I have been given. XX. Thank you one and all.

The solar panel managed to charge the batteries a bit yesterday, we are going for a little drive soon which will hopefully give a bit more, then we will plug it into the electricity here for the rest of the day and tomorrow so hopefully by the time we leave on Sunday the batteries will be topped up.


----------



## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

So what was the fault and what was the solution Jan? Great that you've found one!!


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I could suggest the fault, but I think it'd be safer not to.


----------



## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

I think you're being tactful Alan?!

Do I remember rightly that Jan drove off still attached to the hookup? Did that break or dislodge wires in the lead? I suspect the latter for Jurgen would have found the former?


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

jiwawa said:


> I think you're being tactful Alan?!


Well thank you. I'm not often accused of that.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

erneboy said:


> I could suggest the fault, but I think it'd be safer not to.


The fault was obviously mine :crying: Evan though I had put a picture on the forum showing what I had done I managed to switch wires.

I didn't drive away plugged in, I reversed a bit to get nearer to the tap to fill with a short hose and ran over the cable, it pulled the cable out of the plug and I put it back in again, I was really proud of myself. :smile2: Funny that it worked still at home but not here. I now have a special tester to test the live wire before plugging into the Navajo.
Jürgen has marked the hole that has the live wire in and the tester flashes if it is plugged into the electricity the right way round, if it isn´t I just turn the plug around.


----------



## jhelm (Feb 9, 2008)

So I have not really understood this reverse polarization issue as most of the plugs I am familiar with that is German and Italian can be inserted in either direction. In the US they can only go in one way. So trying to understand this a bit with some internet research. In the US the power is single phase 110/120v with a hot and a neutral wire - polarized. In Europe most countries now have dual phase 240v. That is two hot wires and no neutral - non polarized. I think the UK now has 230 or 240 v non polarized but in the past it was 230v polarized, that is it had a hot and a neutral wire. In reading this is not clear to me, as UK plugs are polarized. 


In single phase one wire has the full voltage on it and the other nothing, so it is important the the plug cannot be put in reversed as that would put the hot side on the neutral portions of the appliance, perhaps the base or cover and create a serious risk. In dual phase, non polarized, both wires are hot and the appliance must be fully insulated from contact with either wire. So if you force a polarized appliance plug in to a non polarized outlet you could get voltage on the neutral side of the appliance, that would be dangerous. 

In the end how does this affect UK campers in the EU. I don't know, it must depend on age and how they are wired. If the electrical panel is telling you the polarity is reversed then I would suspect that the camper may be wired with a neutral wire and a hot wire. As long as the neutral wire is well insulated that should not be a problem, but there is no way of knowing that. Also since the non polarized power source has no neutral wire, that is both wires are hot there is no way of fixing it. 

Comments are welcome, I am just an architect not an electrical engineer.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

The difference is John UK have 3 pin plugs which cannot be reversed, over this side of the water it 2 pin.

My batteries have been on charge for 20 hours and now read* V* 12.5v *L* 12.8v
I will keep them on charge until tomorrow, then on Saturday we will see if they have lost any charge.

I keep wondering if the Sargent needs to be reset somehow, I know I can reset the AH as they gave me instructions some time back how to do it, but also said if the batteries are full not to worry what the AH reads. I´ll contact them when I am home next week.


----------



## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Its helpful to have some understanding of Mains distribution.

Mains is generated and delivered as 3 phase meaning it has 3 feeds with 240 volts across any single phase. At this stage there is no neutral the voltage is across each set of phase wires.

Supply at consumer level uses only a single phase so we have one "hot" feed often called live and we use the ground as the return (its not really a return as with AC the current goes back and forth)
At some point in the home or at the substation feeding a street of houses the Neutral is connected to the Ground so we now have live and neutral and AC at 240V (in the UK) flows between them back and forth 50 times a second. 
We also run a separate earth to appliances as we can't connect the neutral to say the outside of your kettle as other loads on that ring main like a washing machine can cause that neutral wire to have a current flow and therefore a small voltage on it. So we avoid that by running a separate Earth wire that normally has no current or voltage and is there as a route for massive current flow should the metal of you appliance become live due to a fault. This would cause the Fuse to blow as intended.
So in the UK if you had reverse polarity the device would still work but a short of neutral to Earth (neutral now being live) would't blow the fuse as there is no fuse in the neutral feed only the live feed.

However RCD protectors measure the flow of current out from live and back from Neutral. A difference of more than 50mA (enough to give you a jolt but not kill you) will cause the RCD to trip out. So reverse polarity is less of an issue for personal safety but the fuse in the plug which is designed to prevent the wire overheating and a fire may not function so reverse polarity can still be a risk.


----------



## jhelm (Feb 9, 2008)

So Pat you are confirming that the UK still uses single phase 240, 50hz? Europe is using 240 double phase with both wires hot and no ground other that the safety third wire to ground. Always good to learn something new.


----------



## Ozzyjohn (Sep 3, 2007)

I've watched a number of this guy's videos - they are always informative. His speaking voice can be a little soporific though.






Regards,
John


----------



## jhelm (Feb 9, 2008)

So I wonder if you switch the UK plug wires around would it make any difference when you get the reverse polarity warning, since there is no actual neutral wire in the EU double phase system.


----------



## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

jhelm said:


> So Pat you are confirming that the UK still uses single phase 240, 50hz? Europe is using 240 double phase with both wires hot and no ground other that the safety third wire to ground. Always good to learn something new.


I can't find anything helpful on Google re dual phase. Its either single or 3 phase. in the US they use Split phase taken across two of a 3 phase circuit. So I think SPlit phase is dual phase so derived from 3 phase/

I can imagine that the local step down transformer from the supplier ends up with 2 AC outputs and at that stage they aren't live and neutral.
But unless one is referenced to earth your earth connection is worthless. Having an earth only works if it has a relationship to the live as a route to flow down.

So typically in the UK at the substation one of the transformer outputs is designated live and the other Neutral. The Neutral is then grounded.
To the home a shielded 2 core cable is fed with Live, Neutral and outer screen or earth.
Some older properties are fed just the live feed and have a local Earth rod that becomes the house earth and the Neutral. The actuall ground is used as part of the AC supply.


----------



## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

jhelm said:


> So Pat you are confirming that the UK still uses single phase 240, 50hz? Europe is using 240 double phase with both wires hot and no ground other that the safety third wire to ground. Always good to learn something new.


Close but not actually true....

The voltage throughout Europe has been standardised since 2003 and has tolerance values which allows some fluctuation.

The actual figure is

230v. -10% +6% which allows for the 240v that has traditionally been found in the U.K. and the 220v found in the EU although even that may not be absolutely accurate.

Some parts of the UK (Islands) have 250v which is still within the tolerance levels, just.

The majority of people in residential properties in the U.K. are on monophase supply. High demand users e.g. Factories, farms etc may be on triple phase which allows greater power consumption without thicker wires being needed. The wiring for triple phase is more complex and may involve different sockets if all three phases are to be used.

In Europe many of the rural properties were once farms using electricity to power heavy machinery e.g. Pumps, saws, mills etc. These properties MAY have triple phase (we do) or monophase.

So the picture becomes even more complex and using triple phase means that the load on each of the three phases should be balanced - we have one master RCD with three linked cutoffs, one for each phase so that if one fails, the others cut off too, there are then three rows of trips, one for each phase and the load on each has to be nearly the same if all switched on at same time.

I can happily supply links to verify this if you are really keen to fall asleep.


----------



## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

That's why you sometimes see warning noticed about 400V between outlets.
You can have sockets or lighting circuits on different phases in a building and each is 240V but across 2 circuits it can be 400V!


----------



## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

And just to add confusion to chaos, 400v is commonly found as a supply voltage on the "upstream" side of a transformer - often seen as green painted objects behind metal fences with warning signs all over them......


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

And some American 240v outputs have a centre tapped earth. Fun on an RV where 'earth' is at a potential above earth.?

Ray.


----------



## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

raynipper said:


> And some American 240v outputs have a centre tapped earth. Fun on an RV where 'earth' is at a potential above earth.?
> 
> Ray.


But don't they ground that centre tap? So you have 2 120V circuits or one 240V circuit for higher current loads.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Basically yes Pat but I have found a couple of American RVs with their earth or chassis being above earth potential with their generators running. Quite a tingle on the door grab handle depending on the floating earth. Usually less than 50v.

Ray.


----------



## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

raynipper said:


> Basically yes Pat but I have found a couple of American RVs with their earth or chassis being above earth potential with their generators running. Quite a tingle on the door grab handle depending on the floating earth. Usually less than 50v.
> 
> Ray.


Yes I have a generator and it states it most have an earth rod or valid earth connection before use. Failing to do that and the van chassis is just floating. You then get capacitance and smoothing filters in some kit that will leak some current to earth so you get a floating voltage.

I guess it would be a sensible precaution to have your own earth stake you hook your van to if on sites of unknown earth


----------



## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Honda specifically say not to....

I asked about that some years ago and was linked to a page in the manual which says in bold and capitals NOT to earth the generator.....

So, I follow their advice when I (very rarely) use the generator.

Correction,

The CURRENT manual says to consult an electrician and follow local guidance and if attached an earthing rod is connected to the metal frame, the non-metal parts etc.

That is all on PAGE 18 of the current EU1.0kva generator.

Sorry to have posted incorrect information, in future I will have to consult a qualified electrician, local agency having jurisdiction for local codes or an electrical inspector.....

Obviously to do that will delay starting it by at least 3 weeks but I will follow the guidance won't I ..... ?


----------



## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

There is a safety advantage to not earthing a generator because you can't get a shock off either live.
However if an appliance shorts live to earth you won't blow the fuse. Every earth in the unit is then live!

Honda probably know the generator output may not be enough to blow a fuse anyway and the odds of an equipment failure is slim.


----------

