# Winter Motorhoming



## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

Whilst we are not totally new to motorhoming, we are planning a European trip this coming January and February. We have a new Auto-Trail and will, by then, have frost heaters fitted to both the fresh and waste water tanks. I guess they don't work when under way or do they?

What advice can the seasoned "out of season" travellers give us to avoid embarrassments. 

A couple of years back, we moved home from France to the UK in a February and found wine literally freezing in a trailer. If the frost heaters in the water tanks don't operate under way does one have to run with totally empty tanks in weather when the wind chill factor of simply driving will freeze their contents?

Is there any other advice? Such as do you find that the French Communes turn off the water supplies to their bornes in cold weather (even in the Dordogne you can skate on rivers in a minus 14 deg C February)? I suspect that we can get around this (avoid all frozen rivers?) but it will be useful to know what we can expect and any other advice.

HyFy


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## javea (Jun 8, 2007)

I think you will find that most aires turn off the water supply early in October. When I am in France in winter time I get my water from motorway service stations or from the water supply in the toilet facilities on motorway aires. For the latter I carry some long hoses which I can join together as usually you cannot get very close to the building.


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

It would be a good idea to have the heaters on while driving - If the Auto Trail doesn't have that already then it would be simple to alter the wiring so they can be on during travelling.

Regarding Aires/camp sites - work on the assumption that all water is turned off on a line north of Lyon. Many are turned off south also. Last February in Gruissan on the South coast the only place we could get water was the Fire Service. I don't know much about the Auto Trail but if you are planning on using it in winter then look at ways of lagging the pipes and valves. In many cases we have observed its usually the waste dump valve that freezes so if you can protect that then you will go a long way in protecting your van (as well as keeping the tank heaters on)


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

We keep the van in commission all winter here in the frozen north.
The dump valve is left open and waste water collected in a plastic pail which can be emptied even if frozen.
Fresh water tank is usually inboard so as long as the van is heated then no problem there.
You have a bigger problem with the wine - once frozen and thawed, it will be undrinkable!!


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## joedenise (Jul 20, 2007)

We must have been really lucky last December then as all the Aires we stayed on in December, except one had water available. WE carried bottled water in case we couldn't fill up but didn't need to use any.

Denise


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

The pipework is likely to be more of a problem than the tanks. A small mass of water will freeze very much more quickly than a large one, and the pipes will be very exposed in places.

Think carefully about insulation as well. It will not *prevent *your pipes and tank from freezing - it will only slow it down. By the same token it will equally slow down the thawing process if you do freeze up.

In some extreme circumstances the laws of physics take over, and there ain't a lot you can do about it. :roll:

I don't know much about potable anti-freeze, except that it exists. If you keep your drinking water in separate containers that may be an option in the main tanks.

Dave


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## Christine600 (Jan 20, 2011)

I am new to winter motothoming myself. But I know that some camping sites are open all year. They would have both water and emptying facilities open I take it?

And is there a list over such camp sites?


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Christine600 said:


> I am new to winter motothoming myself. But I know that some camping sites are open all year. They would have both water and emptying facilities open I take it?
> 
> And is there a list over such camp sites?


As a general rule that is the case but not always true. We have visited several "open all year sites" that have turned off their water if the temperatures drop below freezing. That said many of them will allow you to take water from their homes or from within the toilet blocks etc. In the SW Med around Narbonne this year all the sites that were open still had their water turned off with no water to flush the toilets. Very messy

You can search on here for sites that are open all year and in the CC books they place a little star at the end of each entry to denote it is open all year. Like this country there are more and more sites staying open all year these days.

Aultymer,

I agree that leaving it open is the best option however many of the folks that left their valves open also suffered from frozen pipes and valves - as Zebedee says a little water will freeze more quickly than a tank. Each time they ran water through a little stayed behind and the ice built up until it became solid.


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## ob1 (Sep 25, 2007)

You could always buy a Frankia, toasty inside and simply nothing at all externally to freeze up.


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## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

*Thanks for all of your replies...*

We had an idea that the hardened motorhomers would come up with loads of advice and we are really grateful.

When I have finished lagging the new pipework to the new kitchen at home, I will transfer all spare to the external pipework in the van!!!

*"aultymer"* - you were right, all of the wine had to be ditched. But the dog's water also froze. It was hugely expensive at short notice to replace on motorway service areas! Those were pre-motorhome days!

Both the fresh and waste tanks on our Auto-Trail are under-slung tanks and are therefore subject to passing cooling airflow.

*"Vennwood"* - I'm not sure that our dealer will go along with wiring the tank heaters for use underway but I can try!

Also we have a vehicle heated by gas not diesel. I guess that we can't have that running whilst underway?

Once again thanks for all of your most useful advice.

We are proposing to pass through France visiting old neighbours in the Dordogne _en route_ before spending the greater time in Spain where I guess the "cold issues" are less relevant. Mind you the last time (Feb 2005), I was passing Barcelona, in the winter, the AP7 was closed because of snow and the town was at a snail's pace for the same reason!! I still have the gouge mark on my roof from a sharp palm frond weighed down by snow!!!!

So it's the French bit that concerns us. We can pick up water locally from ex-neighbours and take it easy in the bits in between.

"ob1" Yes maybe we should have chosen an alternative! (See our reply to another post) We didn't have the idea of winter travel when we chose the Auto-Trail. The space heating is very sluggish and is prioritised over the hot water. Oh for the days when even the sturdy Elldis used to chuck out loads of heat and hot water at the same time. Now you have to wait for the van to heat up before the hot water gets a chance to give you a shower... It just encourages smelly "vanners" !!!

Keep the advice coming in. It is most gratefully received.

HyFy


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## palaceboy (Mar 9, 2008)

I am not knocking it at all but why are m/h travelling around France in jan/feb . I have travelled top to bottom 3 times in mid winter and found the weather cold and miserable with short daylight hours eg . same as the UK . I can understand it if the Alps or Pyrannes are the attraction what are we missing


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## Christine600 (Jan 20, 2011)

*Re: Thanks for all of your replies...*



HyFy said:


> Also we have a vehicle heated by gas not diesel. I guess that we can't have that running whilst underway?


My MH has a special gas valve (Secumotion) which shuts of the gas if there is an accident. So I can have the heater and fridge on gas while driving.


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

palaceboy said:


> I am not knocking it at all but why are m/h travelling around France in jan/feb . I have travelled top to bottom 3 times in mid winter and found the weather cold and miserable with short daylight hours eg . same as the UK . I can understand it if the Alps or Pyrannes are the attraction what are we missing


For us having spent 6 weeks in Jan/Feb every year for over 8 years we have benefited from some really excellent weather (as well as some very cold) I can recall on 9th Jan 3 years ago when the temp in Le Lavandou reached a balmy 22C. Or the weeks on end when there wasn't a cloud in sight and the temp bumbled along around 15 -16C. Yes we have had wind, rain and frost but you can move along a way and find the good weather like the micro climate around Nice. Its the luck of the draw I know but on average we have had much better weather than in UK


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## ned (Dec 12, 2006)

*M?H in the winter*

Hi,
We did a skiing trip about 6 years ago with an Autotrail 660. It is the only time I have forsaken a continental M/H for an english variety. I did everything I could to stop icing up but to no avail. The only way around it is to take water carriers ( 1 or 2 gallon) and store them full inside the van. Your heating system for the tanks will only work down to -5 degs after that you are just wasting energy and cash. WE also drain off into a bucket so that the giant lollipop can be got rid of. If you are going on campsites and there are plenty open all year round just surf the webb, then we found a large electric oil heater ( 1 Kw = 4amps) keeps the van nice and cosy then use the truma to boost up the heat.

Needless to say, we ditched the 660, too much trouble and went back to a Hymer. Why oh why can't autotrail. autosleepers and all the other 'english' vans have internal tanks. It can't cost more than slinging 12 gallons underneath and as all the vans are now pretty modular in design you woyld only need 2 or 3 different size plastic tanks to fit into your modular system. The designers seem more interested in kitting out a small country cottage rather than a modern, up to date contemporary internal environment.

Cheers............ Ned


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## ttcharlie (Nov 29, 2011)

*Re: M?H in the winter*



ned said:


> Hi,
> The designers seem more interested in kitting out a small country cottage rather than a modern, up to date contemporary internal environment.
> 
> Cheers............ Ned


How true is this!!!!

I like my MH for its basic functionality, I have no interest in taking my lounge on holiday with me.


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## NeilandDebs (Aug 28, 2008)

*france inwinter*

I do not know what type of central heating you have in your van.
If it is a wet system then you can have a heat exchanger fitted. This
will allow you to have the heating on,whilst travelling, and it will be powered by the vehicle cooling system. It is very effective we have used it in our m/h numerous times.

Neil


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## almag (Oct 25, 2009)

We had tank heaters fitted by the factory on our Autotrail and it was a waste of time and money. The drain pipes for both waste and fresh are uninsulated with the drain taps on the end so they are full of water all the time water is in the tank. The fresh drain froze with the tank heater on then when it thawed split the pipe and drained the tank. 

Autotrail Technology at its best.

Alan


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## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

*Thanks again..*

It's all good advice and when I have finished re-building the kitchen (in the house - not the motorhome! I will crawl underneath to see what needs doing to exposed pipes. From what people are saying rubble sacks full of closed foam insulation seems the order of the day!! We expected a change of water routine and the responses are not saying otherwise.

I wil also get the dealer to confirm that he will wire the tank heaters to work _en route_.

I don't think that, in the first instance, I will try to go for gas space heating underway as I don't want the issue of forgetting to switch it off it as I drive into petrol stations. That could be disastrous!!! I have to have a check list to move off/stop. So I guess one before re-fuelling maybe one too many!

Any other tips? They are all really appreciated.

Re: water supplies. I guess that other than fire stations, "_ateliers communales_ (council depots) would be a good source - after all they were the ones to turn off the bornes!!

Keep it coming...

Yours

HyFy


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

Hiya 

Some open all year campsites in Scotland still have the facilities out in the air, so emptying tanks required a hammer and a small crowbar. If the fresh tap was running when we arrived in the evening I'd leave it just dripping overnight so it wasn't entirely frozen in the morning. Or wait a few hours for whatever warmth from the sun hopefully defrosts the above ground pipe sections. 

A couple of aires in France that turn the water off have the stopcock in a box only a few feet from the users tap, so you could turn it on again just for you, then mains off and tap open of course! If the tap is a long way from the stopcock then you'll be putting their pipework at risk, the couple I have in mind there is nothing to drain down on such a short pipe run. 

Ski resort aires often seem to have an insulated box around the water supply and waste facilities so they can definitely be used all year. We never had enough pipe to drain our black tank into these though, so decanting was required. 

We've once had the black tank outlet badly freeze, requiring a direct attack with a sharp tent peg, and several times had the grey outlet freeze. Mostly an hour or so of directing hot water onto a cloth wrapped around the outlet works, if you can get at yours! Leaving our grey gate valve open for too long seems to make the valve gaskets swell and deform a little, so I'm always gentle when reclosing. 

But more recently I've put maybe a mug full of screen wash into the just emptied waste tanks. This seems to get itself into the gate valve and stay there even after several days worth of filling and driving, and I can't remember a time any outlet has frozen since, even when really very cold. Underslung, not heated or insulated but 70l capacity which I'm sure helps in itself.

With an underslung water tank, the pump is still inboard and sucks or is it in the tank? If inboard you could rig a pipe to it from an internal portable water container?


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## joedenise (Jul 20, 2007)

hi hyfy

the tank heaters you are talking about are 12 volt i have one in the waste tank and it does stay on all the time

joe


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## WildThingsKev (Dec 29, 2009)

grizzlyj said:


> Hiya
> 
> Some open all year campsites in Scotland still have the facilities out in the air, so emptying tanks required a hammer and a small crowbar. If the fresh tap was running when we arrived in the evening I'd leave it just dripping overnight so it wasn't entirely frozen in the morning. Or wait a few hours for whatever warmth from the sun hopefully defrosts the above ground pipe sections.
> 
> ...


Good tip about putting screenwash in after emptying. Our grey water tank (like most continental vans) has an outer skin with the air gap warmed by a pipe from the truma. This still didn't stop the valve freezing one night in Switzerland this January as there is little airflow down at the bottom of the void.

Since we spend all of January in the Alps snowboarding I've now taken a belt and braces approach. First I've insulated the whole outer skin by bonding 10mm Plastazote (Karrimat) to it. Then, out of 30mm foam I've built a box around the valve with air-bleed gaps so the truma air can move through the void and exhaust around the valve. The truma runs 24/7 so I'm pretty confident we won't get a problem again, especially with a mug of screenwash in there!

Kev


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

I think sometimes people write YMMV, and I've no idea what that means. Perhaps in this instance Your Mug May Vary? As I said our tank is 70l, but a mug full is probably more than I have used. A good slug, no more or less, is probably more accurate


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