# Overnight parking - legal definition?



## tonyt (May 25, 2005)

With the ever increasing number of "No Overnight Parking" signs, I wonder if arriving at such a spot at 00h01 would legally mean that said sign doesn't apply?

Exactly what does "overnight" mean?


----------



## gloworm (Nov 21, 2008)

I think it means anywhere someone cant take money from us for parking.


Eric :wink:


----------



## emjaiuk (Jun 3, 2005)

tonyt said:


> With the ever increasing number of "No Overnight Parking" signs, I wonder if arriving at such a spot at 00h01 would legally mean that said sign doesn't apply?
> 
> Exactly what does "overnight" mean?


I think that's a very good and useful question.

Malcolm


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I don't expect there is a legal definition although it may help it it turns out that there is..

I imagine each of the bodies erecting such signs will know how they intend interpreting them and we will only find out if we fall foul of them, Alan.


----------



## Jented (Jan 12, 2010)

Hi. 
Hello,hello,hello,when did you park up? " 00.01 hrs officer" oh,AFTER midnight........... Midnight being 23.59/00.01 hrs. So if midnight is the middle of the night......... Does that help?.Perhaps not,it is me being silly....
Not,"Your fired",but could be,"your nicked" lol.
Ted.


----------



## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

yes, a bit like the "no overnight camping" signs - what is their definition of camping? By parking up & not putting any chairs or stuff outside or similar "setting up camp", I would argue it's not camping, and I believe this is the definition used for most aires in France..

Mind you I wouldn't want to argue the point at 3am :roll: 

Our esteemed local council put up signs saying "no overnight sleeping and no cooking at all times", so if you're parked up on Bognor seafront on a nice sunny afternoon you COULD be booked for preparing lunch :roll: It is obviously put there to stop the "travellers", but when have any of the people who do that sort of thing ever taken notice of such signs? A waste of space, unfortunately the same council put height barriers on most of their off street car parks, so we have no chance of testing the rules there :x


----------



## Bryandh (Oct 6, 2010)

I guess that a loose interpretaion for application of "overnight" might be, as explained to me recently by a "jobsworth"..... "during the hours of darkness." Tried to explain that that could be difficult to enforce during the winter months, jobsworth replied with a shrug of the shoulders.
Good question, one which is worth exploring with authorities...but where to start ?


----------



## Jented (Jan 12, 2010)

Hi.
In testing the "Rules",you may find you shoot yourselves in the foot,if the powers that be decide "No overnight parking" is from 21.00hrs until 06.00 hrs,this will stop people from waiting early evening/morning,to catch ferries,etc. Common sense must prevail,otherwise we will be at the mercy of the very "Jobsworths"(Your words) you mention.
The,"NO HGV Before" signs on the outskirts of London,state the times,but not the day/month or year,where do you draw the line. I think you know in your heart of hearts when overnight is,but,nothing ventured,nothing gained...but lost is another matter.
Ted.
PS . You can be and are,woken up anytime after 03.00 hours and told to move on,if it is a no overnight lay bye,and a member on here has confirmed thtt this is accepted practise,its up to you now.


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I will admit that in rural areas of Ireland I ignore such signs, always have and have never been challenged, Alan.


----------



## tonyt (May 25, 2005)

I guess it is open to interpretation but to me, overnight means from one day, overnight, to the next day (which, in itself, could also be open to interpretation).


----------



## NeilandDebs (Aug 28, 2008)

*overnight parking*

Hello All,
Just read the overnight parking entry. With regard to the parking in laybys designated as 'no overnight parking'. Who wakes you up to move you on at 0030hrs. As a retired policeman I can say that I nor any of my colleagues ever moved anyone on. We were always to busy doing more important things.

Neil


----------



## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Any parking regulation (yellow lines) has to state over what times it operates. as in "No waiting 0800-1800" or "No waiting Monday to Friday 0900-1700 etc. (EXCEPT these days there is NO requirement for "At Any Time" plates to be erected where double yellow lines are in place, you have been warned  ) 

Therefore I would say these "No overnight parking" signs are unenforceable as the actual times that waiting is restricted are clearly not available for you, the motorist, to make any meaningful decision.

Its for that reason that signs in Weymouth (In some places) state "No sleeping or cooking at any time" That pretty much covers anyone sleeping in their vehicle overnight HOWEVER no-one is able to answer the question "How do you prove someone is actually sleeping in a MH if all the curtains are drawn and no-one answers the door??" If they do answer the door does that not show they are clearly NOT sleeping (I was reading a book, look there it is and yes I often sit and read in my pyjamas/naked 8O ). 

There are a number of locations around the Weymouth area where there are motorhome specific parking spaces which have a condition that motorhomes are NOT permitted between 2359 and 0800. That restriction IS enforecable because the times are stated (however how EXACTLY do you define "motorhome"??)

If I am feeling very tired and decide to "take a nap" in my car, as we are all encouraged to do if we feel tired, will I get a ticket??


----------



## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

We have had great success by going into a Police station, telling them that we want to spend a couple of days in the area, and asking where we can park where we wont upset anyone and be legal.

We have had Police car escorts taking us to some great spots, and the best of it, for the price of a quick look around the van, a cup of tea and a couple of Rich Tea, we get a passing Police prescence every couple of hours :wink: 

Result!

I have also always thought that if I arrive ay 00.01 I would simply say that I had arrived early for a day in the area.

Eddie


----------



## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Biggest difference between us and the French (etc) is how the rules are applied.

In France the rules are usually applied only when some pillock goes way OTT and really deserves to be clobbered. Then there are rules already in force that the police can use . . . when and if they are needed.

Unfortunately in this country a "jobsworth" mentality prevails, so officious (_errmmmm_ :roll: ) persons!!! go round looking for rules in order to enforce them, or they rat on others and have the rules enforced.

If only more people would say, "_Who is it bothering_?" . . . and if the answer is "_Nobody_" then get on with their life and let others do the same.

Just my opinion!!

Dave :roll:


----------



## bktayken (Oct 11, 2008)

*Overnight parking*

I would have though that from sunset to sunrise would be considered ..overnight.. As for camping `putting chairs tables and or awning out here is considered camping and as some one previously mention very loosely applied most of the time.

Brian


----------



## passionwagon (Nov 13, 2005)

8O There is no definition. Any such notices on public land or highways only have validity when an appropriate order has been made by the local authority with proper public notices etc. The signs must also be of the prescribed size and lettering. In the same way as speed limits,parking, no entry etc. If challenged ask for details of the order which has to be very specific as to where and when it applies. Interestingly in Hunstanton a couple of streets around the squares have had no overnight camping notices erected because the locals say motorhomes spoil the area! Well no county council (it is they who are the responsible authority for highways) order has ever been made. :idea:


----------



## Jented (Jan 12, 2010)

Hi Neiland Debs.
As said,in another post similar to this one,a retired police officer was working fo a local council and stated that council workers on the 22.00 hrs-06.00 hrs would go around and move people on in these lay-byes,they also stated that they were P****d off,with having to replace the signs that had been removed. I have no reason to doubt your words,as i have been given the benefit of the doubt during my,"Knights?" LOL,of the road days,but i have no reason to doubt their words,they are/were, in a job doing just that at the time,so there you have it. Stay well,stay lucky.
Gearjammer.
PS. Seek and ye shall find,me?,i am off to have another couple of scoops!LOL.


----------



## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

There is no national legal definition set by parliament so it will be down to the individfual wording of each set of city, town, district or county council bye-laws. They are not always worded identically, although there are templates, and some contain definitions and some don't. Over night parking would affect any vehicle, car, van, MH etc unless it specifies what is not to park. Many more have no sleeping rules or vehicle specific rules.
As they are local there should be a notice in sufficient clear detail, if not then you probably have a defence.
Of course in many areas there will be no enforcing officer around at the hours you are worrrying about, the police couldn't give a monkey's, so park up late and leave early and in most cases no one wil bother you.


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*No overnight*

I have seen a lot of these red no overnight parking signs in Scotland.

To be fair, I have only ever seen them in the day when pulling on for a brew. How, you are supposed to see them if you are pulling in when dark, no idea as they are very small.

But, I have never seen them with time or waiting hours alongside them.

I have not parked overnight in them, but would if I had to. But no nightcap!

TM


----------



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

This a valid and relevant thread.

'Mrplodd, 'passionwagon' and 'thieawin',s views combined really come to the same thing: English Law is based on the principle that all things are permitted unless proscribed (forbidden).

To be enforceable laws must be 'legal' (made by Parliament or with Parliament's delegated authority) and 'certain', i.e. the public must be able to understand what is required to comply.

Without knowing whether any of these specific signs mentioned have a 'legal' authority, in that the local authority correctly, within their powers, enacted by-laws, it would seem that many of them could be challenged for lack of 'certainty' re lack of definition re hours, type of vehicle, cooking, sleeping etc. 

Most validly enacted parking restrictions, displayed in detail at car parks, do state the delegated legislation Order under which they are published. Those are enforceable.

But, as posted above, who is going to enforce them - certainly not the police, even if they were trained in all the different by-laws enacted by different councils in their Constabulary area?

I suggest we all 'sleep' on it.

Geoff


----------



## GEOMAR (Mar 16, 2008)

*overnight parking*

Does not apply to gipsys or travellers


----------



## Bill_H (Feb 18, 2011)

Travel at night when the roads are empty and sleep during the day, simples.


----------



## HeatherChloe (Oct 18, 2009)

Mrplodd said:


> Any parking regulation (yellow lines) has to state over what times it operates. as in "No waiting 0800-1800" or "No waiting Monday to Friday 0900-1700 etc. (EXCEPT these days there is NO requirement for "At Any Time" plates to be erected where double yellow lines are in place, you have been warned  )
> 
> Therefore I would say these "No overnight parking" signs are unenforceable as the actual times that waiting is restricted are clearly not available for you, the motorist, to make any meaningful decision.


I think you are correct.

If you are parked overnight on the public highway, then a parking attendant would need to give you a ticket for having parked illegally - so let's look at the signs which are needed for this.... http://www.ticketfighter.co.uk/parking.htm sets out all the situations regarding signs and parking illegally.

So as you say, if the sign does not clearly state which hours of parking are illegal (eg Controlled Zone Mon-Sun 12am - 4am) and comply with the rules regarding signs (which require hours to be stated) then the sign is illegal.

If the parking sign is on private property, then any ticket that you might get can be ignored.

As for the police moving you on, the position is that a parking attendant must give you a ticket first, and then after that, a clamping unit can be sent to move you. The police don't move you.


----------



## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

[quote="HeatherChloe If the parking sign is on private property, then any ticket that you might get can be ignored.

[/quote]

ROFL

If you believe that, you will believe anything, and anyone acting on that advice could end up in deep doo doo.

Cannot be enforced in criminal courts, but they can obtain info under Data Protection from Swansea, sue in civil courts, on line, and will, and once they have judgmenmt they can, and will, send in bailiffs.

By parking on private property where there are warning signs not to park, or about "fines" payable for overstaying, eg motorway services, you are deemed to have seen them, if prominently displayed and to have agreed and formed a contract by parking up.

Most of these no overnighting/sleeping/cooking signs tend to occur on municipal carparks, although some are street parking, especially at seaside resorts. They are unlikely to be striaghtforward yellow line situations.

These are not parking regs but no camping, no overnighting and no sleeping bye laws. Different beast.

BUT always check the signs and the byelaws and regs if someone does ticket you or summons you.


----------



## HeatherChloe (Oct 18, 2009)

thieawin said:


> Cannot be enforced in criminal courts, but they can obtain info under Data Protection from Swansea, sue in civil courts, on line, and will, and once they have judgmenmt they can, and will, send in bailiffs. By parking on private property where there are warning signs not to park, or about "fines" payable for overstaying, eg motorway services, you are deemed to have seen them, if prominently displayed and to have agreed and formed a contract by parking up.


I agree with you.

But how many people will write you a recorded delivery letter saying: "I understand that you parked on my land overnight. I enclose a photograph of a sign which I put on the land which you used which shows clearly that anyone parking there will have to pay a fine. You must have seen this sign and therefore you agreed to pay me if you parked on my land. I therefore request that you pay me the sum of £100 within 14 days or I shall be forced to take you to the small claims court."

They will have to pay a court fee, fill out allocation questionaires, claim that you are in breach of contract, that the contract was reasonable (eg is £100 to stay overnight on a piece of land which has no facilities reasonable? probably not - therefore the whole contract would be unfair and set aside) and so on. As an individual you'd have the right for the case to be heard in your local court, not theirs, so they'd have to travel to the court.

If they were lucky enough to get that far through the courts, as you rightly say if you still didn't pay, then they'd have to get a court order to send baillifs over.

I honestly don't believe that anyone would actually do that for the sake of £20-40 odd quid. Even though you are right that they potentially could. I think they probably just threaten you and hope you'll pay up without going to court and make their money that way.


----------



## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

The parking enforcement agents (nasty debt collectors to you and me) they employ do it all the time. No need to write recorded, its deemed to arrive in due course of business, next day 1st and two days 2nd, unless returned in dead letter service; at least 50% of people pay up on 1st letter and a lot more before on line proceedings are issued.

Price is "consideration", not a "contract term", so you pay what you agree by staying, ie whats on the notice, you can't challenge the amount as an unfair contarct term, unless its a penalty. And they will be able to prove that it isn't by virtue of the cost of writing to Swansae, getting details writing the leter issuing the pretend parking ticket etc.

The issue fee is small and most people do not defend. Noallocation questionaires to fill in. Lucrative business, and I can assure you service stations, tesco car parks etc all are run in the same way, just read the notices.

If its private land you are trespassing anyway and that attracts damages.


----------



## Bill_H (Feb 18, 2011)

thieawin said:


> The parking enforcement agents (nasty debt collectors to you and me) they employ do it all the time. No need to write recorded, its deemed to arrive in due course of business, next day 1st and two days 2nd, unless returned in dead letter service; at least 50% of people pay up on 1st letter and a lot more before on line proceedings are issued.
> 
> Price is "consideration", not a "contract term", so you pay what you agree by staying, ie whats on the notice, you can't challenge the amount as an unfair contarct term, unless its a penalty. And they will be able to prove that it isn't by virtue of the cost of writing to Swansae, getting details writing the leter issuing the pretend parking ticket etc.
> 
> ...


If you are the registered keeper of the vehicle, but were not the driver at the time, are you legally obliged to give the driver's details?


----------



## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

Yes if it is a road authority and a proper fixed penalty, if you do not want to pay yourself.

If it is private, no.

However

If your defence is that it is not you, to a private one, and then you get sued the onus will be on you to prove it was not you, after the claimants have proved you are the legal owner, by showing you were elsewhere at the time and you will be cross examined as to who had the car. If you did not disclose in your defence, or earlier, who that was then you will probably end up being liable for the costs of the claimant of the civil proceedings against you


----------



## Jean-Luc (Jul 21, 2005)

thieawin said:


> [quote="HeatherChloe If the parking sign is on private property, then any ticket that you might get can be ignored.


ROFL

.............. no overnighting/sleeping/cooking ......................[/quote]

Whatever about vehicle parking restrictions, surely ones right to pursue an activity within a legally parked vehicle cannot be 'interfered with' once it does not impact on the external environment in a way which is unlawful. 
As of now, cooking, sleeping, and plenty of other activity   which one can indulge in in ones motorhome is still legal


----------



## HeatherChloe (Oct 18, 2009)

Jean-Luc said:


> plenty of other activity   which one can indulge in in ones motorhome is still legal


what kinds of activity?


----------



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

HeatherChloe said:


> Jean-Luc said:
> 
> 
> > plenty of other activity   which one can indulge in in ones motorhome is still legal
> ...


Jean-Luc

I advise you to plead the 5th Amendment !

Geoff


----------



## tonyt (May 25, 2005)

nicholsong said:


> Jean-LucI advise you to plead the 5th Amendment !Geoff


............or make it understood that it only applies to married people!


----------



## Bill_H (Feb 18, 2011)

The roadside lay-byes around here are packed to the gills with lorry drivers each night, sleeping, cooking et al.
If they have covered their maximum permitted driving hours, presumably they cannot be moved on.


----------

