# Winter Tyres for Christmas Markets.



## Debbie10

Hi,

We're heading to the Christmas Markets in Belgium and would also like to go to Valkenburg.

I know there isn't any legislation for winter tyres but one of the campsites in Valkenburg recommended them, I just wondered how many of you did change your tyres. We're not going to head into Germany I know they do have legislation in place.

Thank you.


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## daveil

Hi, I tried winter tyres for the first time last year, and what a difference it made! Especially in the snow, fantastic,well worth the cost.


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## buxom

I can second that had mine for 2 winters and they were bog standard £80 each from Savoy tyres as they were the only ones I could get at short notice right on Xmas , they put them on there fleet and they are wearing very well. I run on them all year round as the ones I replaced were the original Michellin at 9 years old.


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## raynipper

Mee too.!!!
Winter tyres on all vehicles all year.

Ray.


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## nicholsong

Debbie10 said:


> Hi,
> 
> We're heading to the Christmas Markets in Belgium and would also like to go to Valkenburg.
> 
> I know there isn't any legislation for winter tyres but one of the campsites in Valkenburg recommended them, I just wondered how many of you did change your tyres. We're not going to head into Germany I know they do have legislation in place.
> 
> Thank you.


Debbie

I cannot find a Valkenberg in Belgium only NL, but either way I think you are unlikely to encounter much snow in the low countries before Christmas.

I also run on winter tyres all year - saves cost of buying two sets new when they are time-expired but still have tread as they were each only used for 6 months.

If your tyres are due for changeing then put on winter ones and forget. They also help on wet grass/mud.

Geoff


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## Glandwr

Those that do serious mileage in the snowy parts of Europe will have two sets of wheels. One summer one winter. The likes of Aldi and Lidl are full of stands to hold the out of season ones in your garage. On MHs though (lower milage and lower speed) I would run winter tyres, and do, right though the year.

Dick


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## salomon

Glandwr said:


> Those that do serious mileage in the snowy parts of Europe will have two sets of wheels. One summer one winter. The likes of Aldi and Lidl are full of stands to hold the out of season ones in your garage. On MHs though (lower milage and lower speed) I would run winter tyres, and do, right though the year.
> 
> Dick


Yep. 2 sets of wheels here. Costs about € 40 to have them changed twice a year ( 6 wheels ) .

Personally, if it was just for the odd winter trip and you already have summer tyres then a set of snow socks is best. Fulfills legislation and does the job . 6 years ago it was hideously cold and icy in northern France....


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## Stanner

Yes Valkenburg is in Limburg the "tail" of NL. 

And if by "one" of the campsites in Valkenburg, you mean the campsite in Valkenburg that is located right over the caves, you could well need snow tyres to reach it as it is up quite a steep access road. 
We have stayed there twice for the Markets and both times there has been a sprinkling of snow that made getting up (and down!!) quite tricky so we were glad we are year round winter tyre users as well.

They are obviously advising having them based on the experience of their guests.


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## Stanner

salomon said:


> Personally, if it was just for the odd winter trip and you already have summer tyres then a set of snow socks is best. Fulfills legislation and does the job .


Are you sure about that? Most sites appear to disagree with you.

EG
http://www.halfords.com/advice/motoring/expert-advice/snow-chains-or-snow-socks

Also the AA and the RAC.


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## salomon

They are fine here in Andorra. They are fine in Germany and Italy. I cannot vouch for the whole world . And it is true that you need proper socks ( in our case, for a 10 ton truck ) . I do not think that €20 flimsey things would pass muster if stopped. The point of " obligatory winter equipment " is that you have equipment that works.


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## siggie

Stanner said:


> Yes Valkenburg is in Limburg the "tail" of NL.
> 
> And if by "one" of the campsites in Valkenburg, you mean the campsite in Valkenburg that is located right over the caves, you could well need snow tyres to reach it as it is up quite a steep access road.
> We have stayed there twice for the Markets and both times there has been a sprinkling of snow that made getting up (and down!!) quite tricky so we were glad we are year round winter tyre users as well.
> 
> They are obviously advising having them based on the experience of their guests.


Maybe it's Valkenburg near Leiden that is being referred to :wink2:


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## Stanner

siggie said:


> Maybe it's Valkenburg near Leiden that is being referred to :wink2:


Maybe, does it have 2 huge Christmas Markets?

Just asked Mr Google and he can't find any.


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## siggie

Stanner said:


> Maybe, does it have 2 huge Christmas Markets?
> 
> Just asked Mr Google and he can't find any.


May I humbly suggest you re-read the OP.

"We're heading to the *Christmas Markets in Belgium* and would also* like to go to Valkenburg*."

Doesn't state the Christmas markets in Valkenburg. The OP simply said they would "also like to go to Valkenburg", not "also like to go to the markets in Valkenburg". I may be wrong, but I didn't read into it anything other than what is written.


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## Stanner

Of course how silly of me to link the mention of "Valkenburg" and "Christmas Markets" in the same sentence with the Valkenburg in Limburg.

No doubt you are quite correct in your reading of the question posed in the OP and there is no connection whatsoever with the Valkenburg they wish to visit and Christmas Markets or even the need for winter tyres.


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## Mrplodd

Snow socks are only (designed for and) any good in soft fresh snow, once it gets even slightly packed down they are worse than useless !!!

Andy


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## salomon

Mrplodd said:


> Snow socks are only (designed for and) any good in soft fresh snow, once it gets even slightly packed down they are worse than useless !!!
> 
> Andy


Well. Thats a firm opinion !

Smow chains are better on hard ice. But as most countries excessively salt when it snows ( except Austria ) then you rarely encounter hard ice.
I live at 1400m up a steep hill. Good quality snow socks are all that is required. They work in all types of snow and are much better than useless on ice. We drive a 5.5 ton van in the alps every year and have only ever used socks. 
They work. In my opinion.


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## Stanner

As I understand it to be legal in Germany winter tyres require the "Mountain & Snowflake" symbol on them. 

Does fitting snow socks impart that quality to summer tyres? and if so how "good quality" do the snow socks need to be and how can we tell?


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## nicholsong

Stanner said:


> As I understand it to be legal in Germany winter tyres require the "Mountain & Snowflake" symbol on them.
> 
> Does fitting snow socks impart that quality to summer tyres? and if so how "good quality" do the snow socks need to be and how can we tell?


In Germany in generalthe requirement for winter tyres only applies if there is snow or ice, so if on summer tyres one could park up until the road is cleared.

There may be local regulations in areas like Garmisch-Partenkirchen.

Geoff


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## salomon

In general, the regulation regarding winter equipment is only actually checked when it is needed ( In my experience ). When it snows, the police are usually out in force and making sure anybody who is not equipped is taken off the road and usually fined. They can spot a winter tyre from a distance. I have never seen anyone inspect for a mountain or a snowflake...Same with socks, if the vehicle is behaving correctly in the conditions then its fine to continue. I have seen plenty of people stopped for ill fitted chains though, which usually causes them to break.

I am not a snow sock salesperson. But chains are difficult. Many people just try to continue as the thought of putting chains on is just too horrendous. Then they have to get the instructions out etc etc. Socks are easy to put on and take off. They do a helluva a lot less damage to the roads ( chains on salted roads are a menace....you try to find a covered car park that allows snow chains). 

We have winter tyres on our van. But we sometimes put socks on too. They give even more grip. We do carry chains as well. When you go up Alps you would be a fool not to. But that is not the same as visiting winter markets on the odd occassion, where you would have to be very unlucky to find only chains would do the job.


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## Stanner

nicholsong said:


> In Germany in generalthe requirement for winter tyres only applies if there is snow or ice, so if on summer tyres one could park up until the road is cleared.
> 
> There may be local regulations in areas like Garmisch-Partenkirchen.
> 
> Geoff


I am aware of that but it doesn't answer the question.

We have been told that use of snow socks (or rather "good quality" snow socks) complies with the winter tyre regulations in Germany.

Do "good quality" snow socks add "Mountain & Snowflake" qualification to summer tyres? 
And if they do how can we tell which ones are the "good quality" ones that have that functionality.


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## salomon

I cannot see that anyone has said that.
My original comment was to recommend socks. The OP clearly stated that there was no winter tyre regulation where they intended going.

The discussion was over the merits of chains or socks...which I enlarged on above. Where winter tyres are mandatory, I believe they are mandatory . Most likely for the same reasons I mentioned i,e people cannot be bothered to stop and use their equipment until its too late.


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## Stanner

salomon said:


> I cannot see that anyone has said that.
> My original comment was to recommend socks. The OP clearly stated that there was no winter tyre regulation where they intended going.
> 
> The discussion was over the merits of chains or socks...which I enlarged on above. Where winter tyres are mandatory, I believe they are mandatory . Most likely for the same reasons I mentioned i,e people cannot be bothered to stop and use their equipment until its too late.


Sorry, I clearly totally misunderstood this.



> Fulfills legislation and does the job .





> They are fine here in Andorra. They are fine in Germany and Italy.





> Good quality snow socks are all that is required.


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## salomon

Stanner said:


> Sorry, I clearly totally misunderstood this.


You did misunderstand and I had no intention to mislead.
Winter legislation usually falls in 2 categories . Winter tyres and Winter equipment.
Some countries make winter tyres mandatory. Most make them a recommendation.
More countries make carrying winter equipment obligatory.

As it was clear that winter tyres were not a requirement, I assumed it was obvious.

Apologies if that was not the case.


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## Stanner

salomon said:


> You did misunderstand and I had no intention to mislead.
> Winter legislation usually falls in 2 categories . Winter tyres and Winter equipment.
> Some countries make winter tyres mandatory. Most make them a recommendation.
> More countries make carrying winter equipment obligatory.
> 
> As it was clear that winter tyres were not a requirement, I assumed it was obvious.
> 
> Apologies if that was not the case.


But you were the one who said.



> They are fine in Germany and Italy.


All I did was ask if you were sure as just about every source on the internet disagreed.

They aren't fine in Germany, SFAIK.


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## salomon

I was clear that I am talking about winter equipment. You insist I was talking about winter tyres. We shall just have to agree to differ.

If you happen across a sign that tells you that you must employ your winter equipment then I have no issues that to employ snow socks is fine.
As I have already stated, I have never seen anyone stopped using snow socks and the police are usually out in force. This includes Germany. if your winter equipment os doing its job then no one should have an issue. The point is to ensure you are driving safely. .

I have at no stage said that snow socks replace winter tyres. If that were the case then by default you could roll around on snow chains in place of winter tyres which is ridiculous. Equally if you treated snow socks as winter tyres then they would render themselves useless rather quickly.

I am sure you will manage another response but I am quite done on the topic. I have tried to share my experience , that is all.


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## BillCreer

We have this debate most years and the rules for places like Germany and Austria are that tyres must have the *M+S* markings with a requirement, if I remember correctly, of at least 4mm tread depth. If going into alpine areas you must also carry chains.

Full "winter tyres" are desirable but not compulsory.


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## Stanner

Of course I'm going to respond to that blatant backtracking.

YOU first mentioned snowsocks and stated



> Personally, if it was just for the odd winter trip and you already have summer tyres then a set of snow socks is best. Fulfills legislation and does the job


You then, without changing any explanation of what you were talking about, stated



> They are fine in Germany and Italy.


Now you say


> I was clear that I am talking about winter equipment.


and I have no idea where this has suddenly popped up from

I also have no idea what you now mean by "winter equipment" - skis perhaps?

So far as I can see you initially never referred to winter tyres, other than by implying that snowsocks are in some way an acceptable (and legal) substitute.

So please have it your way, just do not change your story when it's challenged.


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## BillCreer

Another good example of why a lot of people don't bother to contribute on this Forum. I'm sure Salomon will think twice about it next time.

I found his contribution helpful and as he lives in Andorra highly relevant.


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## Stanner

He is a her and where they live is irrelevant if their "helpful" information is factually inaccurate and misleading.

I am not the one who said that snowsocks "Fulfills legislation and does the job" without qualification as to where that might apply and then go on to say "They are fine in Germany and Italy." When they are not "fine" in Germany. 
Being a frequent visitor to Germany, I simply asked if she was sure of that.

You may find the contribution "helpful", I consider it to be misleading.

Perhaps it's best if we all keep quiet and allow misleading information to be bandied about.


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## BillCreer

I see no misleading information in what Salomon says as there are a few grey areas when it comes to using socks and I would always value the opinion of someone who has experience and local knowledge.

Misleading information is when someone says " I understand it to be legal in Germany winter tyres require the "Mountain & Snowflake" symbol on them" as this is not true.


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## Stanner

BillCreer said:


> I see no misleading information in what Salomon says as there are a few grey areas when it comes to using socks and I would always value the opinion of someone who has experience and local knowledge.
> 
> Misleading information is when someone says " I understand it to be legal in Germany winter tyres require the "Mountain & Snowflake" symbol on them" as this is not true.


I qualified what I said with "I understand...." and that is what I still "understand" please feel free to post evidence that is wrong.

Saloman used no qualification whatsoever, just straight statements that snowsocks "Fulfills legislation"** and were "fine in Germany..."***

As for your criticism of what I said I could reply that neither is stating that M+S is adequate as well - see below.

_*Check with the tyre supplier if you are in any doubt as some 'M+S' tyres sold in the UK are summer tyres. These would not meet the requirements even though the sidewall marking, 'M+S', might suggest that they do.

From 
http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/snow-chains-winter-tyres.html

_The only way to be "SURE" tyres are legal for use in Germany is to have the Mountain and Snowflake symbol on them, then there can be no doubt they are legal.

_** What legislation where?

*** Fine for what in Germany?
_


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## siggie

BillCreer said:


> I see no misleading information in what Salomon says as there are a few grey areas when it comes to using socks and I would always value the opinion of someone who has experience and local knowledge.
> 
> Misleading information is when someone says " I understand it to be legal in Germany winter tyres require the "Mountain & Snowflake" symbol on them" as this is not true.


Exactly, tyres *must have* the "M+S" (mud and snow) lettering but not the 'mountain and snowflake' symbol - only some winter tyres display that symbol, not all. You need to be careful as some tyres sold in the UK with "M+S" on them are not real winter tyres and therefore not legal in Germany in winter weather.

My understanding with snow socks is that they are to only be used to get a vehicle out of a slippery situation for a very limited time and not as a semi-permanent fixture. They wear out pretty quickly.


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## Stanner

Thank you for confirming that only M+S is required, but that it is not always enough to make the tyre legal for use in Germany.

So as I said the only way to be _*sure*_ is to go for Mountain and Snowflake, as just M+S might get you a "fine in Germany"*

* now where have I heard that before?


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## Stanner

BillCreer said:


> I see no misleading information in what Salomon says as there are a few grey areas when it comes to using socks and I would always value the opinion of someone who has experience and local knowledge.
> 
> Misleading information is when someone says " I understand it to be legal in Germany winter tyres require the "Mountain & Snowflake" symbol on them" as this is not true.


Just realised that you are correct, I missed "As" and "sure of being" from the above.

It is therefore no longer misleading as that is what "I understand".


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## Penquin

OK, being a thickie and to save me going back with a filleting knife to dissect each and every post for what it means and then check with all the other posts whether it is counter-manded by later posts, would anyone care to list in simple terms what *IS LEGALLY* required in order to;

a) drive on normal roads in Germany in the winter,

b) drive on roads where snow may or may not be expected in France in winter time,

c) drive on roads in areas where snow MAY be a problem but is not currently around.....

I hope that makes sense, although b) and c) may well be the same answer.....

Such an answer may well be of benefit to others on here who also do not fancy cross-referencing each and every post.....

Dave


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## adonisito

We're off to Alsace and Germany for Christmas and New Year like we did last year. I have Agilis Campers (new) with an M and S marking . I have snow socks and snow chains. That'll do me and I am not worried, we don't intend heading to high ski stations.


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## Stanner

Penquin said:


> OK, being a thickie and to save me going back with a filleting knife to dissect each and every post for what it means and then check with all the other posts whether it is counter-manded by later posts, would anyone care to list in simple terms what *IS LEGALLY* required in order to;
> 
> a) drive on normal roads in Germany in the winter,
> 
> b) drive on roads where snow may or may not be expected in France in winter time,
> 
> c) drive on roads in areas where snow MAY be a problem but is not currently around.....
> 
> I hope that makes sense, although b) and c) may well be the same answer.....
> 
> Such an answer may well be of benefit to others on here who also do not fancy cross-referencing each and every post.....
> 
> Dave


 Just open either of the links to the AA and RAC sites Dave.

But I'm afraid if you want to find out where snowsocks may or may not be legal/required you will be sadly disappointed as they seem to have no, or at best very grey, legal status.*

*despite what some may think.


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## Penquin

Sadly though Stanner, the AA and RAC links are NOT totally accurate as both still say that breathalysers are required for France, the AA does have what I can only assume is an accurate table, it says that winter tyres are not mandatory for France and that chains should be carried and used "as dictated by local signs or road conditions".

Germany is clearer;

Germany introduced regulations in 2010 requiring all passenger *cars and motorbikes* including vehicles from foreign countries to be fitted with winter tyres or all season tyres on all axles when conditions are wintry. Winter tyres (or 'all season' tyres) should bear the mark M+S* or the snowflake symbol on the side wall.

BUT what about MH? I can see no answer to that from either the RAC or the AA, obviously they are primarily interested in cars, but are the same rules applied to vans, MH, lorries etc (We are 3.85 tonnes, so are NOT a car.....).

So, sadly I am not a lot further on yet........ I am sure there is a definitive answer but it seems as easy to find as hen's teeth.....

Snowsocks are of no interest to me, they seem to suffer badly and only have a very limited life and are of questionable value then......

Dave


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## Stanner

Penquin said:


> as both still say that breathalysers are required for France,


I thought (understood) that "technically" the breathalyser law had never been repealed



> BUT what about MH? I can see no answer to that from either the RAC or the AA, obviously they are primarily interested in cars, but are the same rules applied to vans, MH, lorries etc (We are 3.85 tonnes, so are NOT a car.....).


Well you are not a commercial vehicle either.


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## Penquin

You are correct, the law exists but cannot be enforced as that was never enabled, there are no fines associated with failure to carry and no action can be taken either. There are also no current breathalysers AFAIK as their production stopped shortly after Sarkozy left office, they only had a 3 year life and according to rumours (note rumours) the owner of the ONLY factory making them with the approved NF label was owned by a relative of his.....

and of course he will now NOT be the next President......

but the AA, the RAC, the ferry companies and the Ports Authority all very carefully fail to mention that you cannot suffer if you don't have one...... Indeed at the service stations leading to Dover and the tunnel there was last year a MASSIVE display advising you of the requirement to carry them.... or else....

but why let the truth get in the way of a successful advertising campaign and very few motorists are ever likely to go back and say that they were mis-informed prior to the sale..... it's just not worth it.... as you say the law exists, but cannot be enforced......

(There are probably similar laws on the UK statute books)

Dave


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## BillCreer

I'm not going to dig out the official European Country rules on "winter tyres" again but if anyone cares too search then there is a lot of info in the similar exchanges we seem to have every year.

This from Blackcircles seems to be a fair summary.

http://www.blackcircles.com/tyres/winter-tyres/laws-and-legislation

I don't think there is much difference in resilience between socks and chains on snow or ice but I do know from personal experience that you can destroy chains very quickly in tarmac.


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## Penquin

I found this comparison between socks and chains

I have no experience of using either, on either of our vehicles; car or MH.

This is a Which! report on how they test snow socks;






This one shows the problems of trying to fit to rear wheel drive cars.....






Dave


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## BillCreer

I must admit I was thinking of the Michelin hybrid ones that I'll buy next time.

This is of some interest:- http://www.snowchainsandsocks.co.uk/


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## bc109

When we picked up a Hymer motorhome in Bavaria, some weeks ago, I was worried that we might not exit Germany before the frost arrived. The previous owner assured us that they had fitted " All weather tyres" and that there would not be a problem.
Having read much of this thread, I looked up the receipt for the fitted tyres:

Date of the receipt 13.09.2016

225/70R15 112S Pirelli Carrier All Season

When we looked this up on the Pirelli site, this indeed confirmed that these were tyres for all year use.
It would be a very brave German policeman in his green leather jacket to argue with a company like Pirelli.
So buying tyres for Summer and Winter use might be somewhat over the top.
Unfortunately, the PO only bought 4 tyres. Looking at the spare wheel, it's definitely not the same tyre.
More expense !


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## Stanner

bc109 said:


> It would be a very brave German policeman in his green leather jacket to argue with a company like Pirelli.


That depends on how the tyre is marked, if it does not have the required marking what Pirelli "say" is irrelevant.

The Pirelli site gives no information about sidewall marking and then goes on to say.......



> The new CARRIER™ ALL SEASON completes the Van Family and is the right answer for not severe winter conditions without safety compromises.


.... Which does not bode well for satisfying a German policeman.


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## Stanner

BillCreer said:


> We have this debate most years and the rules for places like Germany and Austria are that tyres must have the *M+S* markings with a requirement, if I remember correctly, of at least 4mm tread depth. If going into alpine areas you must also carry chains.
> 
> Full "winter tyres" are desirable but not compulsory.


http://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-article/winter-tyres-don-t-rely-on-the-m-s-mark


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## Stanner

Penquin said:


> OK, being a thickie and to save me going back with a filleting knife to dissect each and every post for what it means and then check with all the other posts whether it is counter-manded by later posts, would anyone care to list in simple terms what *IS LEGALLY* required in order to;
> 
> a) drive on normal roads in Germany in the winter,
> 
> b) drive on roads where snow may or may not be expected in France in winter time,
> 
> c) drive on roads in areas where snow MAY be a problem but is not currently around.....
> 
> I hope that makes sense, although b) and c) may well be the same answer.....
> 
> Such an answer may well be of benefit to others on here who also do not fancy cross-referencing each and every post.....
> 
> Dave


Is this any better?

http://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-article/winter-tyres-in-europe


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## siggie

Stanner said:


> That depends on how the tyre is marked, if it does not have the required marking what Pirelli "say" is irrelevant.
> 
> The Pirelli site gives no information about sidewall marking and then goes on to say.......
> 
> .... Which does not bode well for satisfying a German policeman.


But this site does. It states the tyres have both the M+S and mountain/snowflake markings :wink2:


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## Stanner

siggie said:


> But this site does. It states the tyres have both the M+S and mountain/snowflake markings :wink2:


So it does - strange that Pirelli don't mention a main selling point like that and also insert the "not" in their text.

But they must have done in their press release.

http://www.tyrepress.com/2016/07/all-season-tyres-added-to-pirelli-carrier-family/


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## bc109

225/70R15 112S Pirelli Carrier All Season

The tyres I mentioned above do indeed have an M&S label followed by a snowflake.
I tried to take a picture, but all black and very small. I hope the German police have super eyesight....or perhaps you don't agree !


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## Stanner

You hadn't mentioned any marking only that Pirelli said they were "All Season".

My only surprise was that

1 - Pirelli did not mention an important selling point like the Mountain and Snowflake marking in their description.
and
2 - If the tyres were compliant why Pirelli felt the need to specify they were for "not severe" winter conditions when such tyres are generally required (in Germany) to be used in severe conditions.

Sources other than the manufacturer have confirmed the marking - that is all you need.

Worth watching





4Wd -v- Winter Tyres





and for those who think they only need to fit 2 winter tyres.


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