# Do I need Winter Tyres?



## neilandsue (Jul 13, 2006)

Hi everyone,

I would be grateful for a bit of advice... We are thinking of going over to Austria in January/February for a month and wonder whether I would need winter tyres as well as snow chains :?: We had a hire car ( 4x4 Golf 8) ) last Christmas in Austria with winter tyres and it seemed to make a lot of difference to the grip. Is it worth the hassle of having two sets of tyres?
We have followed the threads on winterising - lots of good advice there!

This will be our first winter trip and a prelude to an 18 months trip starting in the summer   

Thanks,


Neil


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Tyres*

Hi

I am not an expert but I would go for snow chains.

Suggest you contact the AA/RAC etc for a professional opinion. At the end of the day though, that is all it will be - an opinion.

Rapide561


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## rickwiggans (May 10, 2006)

I lived in Switzerland for a couple of years, and was astonished at the difference winter tyres make. Whether it's worth you doing it for one trip depends on where you intend to go. Bear in mind that, also depending where you go, carrying snow chains is compulsory on some roads - so you may find you have to carry them anyway. Can't remember who it is - but it is possible hire winter tyres - that might also be an option.


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## Traveller_HA5_3DOM (May 9, 2005)

The insurers in Germany are insisting on it and refusing claims for cars not fitted with winter tyres. You will need Snow chains to travel on the mountain roads legally in all the Alpine passes and Ski areas this is in addition to any tyre choice. I am not aware of any British insurers who insist on Winter tyres for continental use.


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Hi Neil,

As from April this year it is now a requirement to have winter tyres fitted to be able to drive on snow covered or icy roads in Germany (Gerhard aka Boff would be able to give you further info on this) but I can't find too much about Austria except that its certainly recommended. 
Theres a link >>here<< that says they're not a legal requirement but can be enforced through road signs, how up to date or accurate the information is I don't know, so I would say, if you're going for a month, and in particular around all the mountainous areas and ski resorts then winter tyres would be highly desirable and snow chains essential.

Incidentaly, we're in the market for a set of winter tyres ourselves as we visit Germany a fair bit, so if anyone knows of a good place to get suitable ones for a motorhome please let us all know.

pete.


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## neilandsue (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks to you both, I never thought of hiring the tyres....We would be planning to use them for more than one trip, but yes they are expensive! 
We decided on snow chains whatever, just for peace of mind. Carried a set in the back of the Landrover for years, but only used them once 8O 

I am sure we read that winter tyres were being made compulsory in certain countries during the winter, ring any bells with anybody?

Thanks Pete, saw your post whilst composing this reply!

Neil


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## Don_Madge (May 1, 2005)

neilandsue said:


> Thanks to you both, I never thought of hiring the tyres....We would be planning to use them for more than one trip, but yes they are expensive!
> We decided on snow chains whatever, just for peace of mind. Carried a set in the back of the Landrover for years, but only used them once 8O
> 
> I am sure we read that winter tyres were being made compulsory in certain countries during the winter, ring any bells with anybody?
> ...


Pete,

AUSTRIA has passed a new law as regards snow-chains and winter tyres,

FROM 15th NOV:--until 15th MARCH the following must be carried, Snow-Chains, WINTER tyres must be fitted on the DRIVE--AXLE;

The above ruling is for ALL vehicles in the following classes

N2--3.5tn - to--12tn

N3--12tn plus

N2/M3 --bus -&--Coach

Class N are usually "Goods Vehicles" so it should not apply to motorhomes/RV's, but it is well worth being aware of the new rules.

I will post more info as and when I get it.

Safe travelling

Don


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

> AUSTRIA has passed a new law as regards snow-chains and winter tyres,


Thanks for that Don, do you have any links to the German regs on winter tyres?

pete.


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## Don_Madge (May 1, 2005)

peejay said:


> > AUSTRIA has passed a new law as regards snow-chains and winter tyres,
> 
> 
> Thanks for that Don, do you have any links to the German regs on winter tyres?
> ...


Pete,

I can't find the site to translate the actual law but this is all I can find. It's hard to say when the info was updated.

"There are two relatively new laws, carrying fines and other penalties, that you should be aware of. They concern the passing of buses and driving on snow-covered roads.

Motorists may not pass a bus that signals with its blinker that it is approaching one of its stops. Once the bus has stopped it's OK to pass it, but at what the Germans call Schrittempo. That means moving so slowly that the needle on your speedometer doesn't register. Cars headed in the opposite direction must also use Schrittempo when a bus is stopped with its blinker going. This is because of the danger that people, particularly children, may try to cross the street in an effort to catch the bus. If any do, the car must stop and let them cross.

Driving on snow-covered roads is permitted only if your car is equipped with winter tires. Use of regular tires can result in a fine and, much worse, loss of your insurance coverage in the event of an accident."

A site I recommend to first timers in Germany is HERE

Safe travelling

Don


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## Don_Madge (May 1, 2005)

Pete,

We are talking about Austria here, I'm getting confused again, need to lie down.

Got this from a source in Germany, he's usually on the ball as he's one of the Trucknet News teams, but it could be as GT would say another urban myth  

"Sorry I can,t Quote chapter and verse as i got the news from my german truck mag, but the use of winter tyres applies to all cars 
and motorhomes as well, YOU will require be LAW to HAVE the correct WINTER TYRES fitted, snow chains for cars and R/Vs (MOTORHOMES) WILL be optional.

BUT to be honest if you are going into the regions where SNOW is all ways heavy on the ground, then either HIRE a set OR BUY ONE; ALSO you will need a minimum of 4mm tread depth,MORE would be better, 
BY THE WAY FOR CARS R/Vs all TYRES FITTED MUST BE WINTER TYRES: 

HOPE THIS IS OKAY"

That's it, I'll look further but lets hope Boff can clarify the situation.

Don


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Thanks again Don,

While we're on about chains and tyres, i've just discovered on looking through my manual that fwd transits fitted with 215/75r/16c tyres on the front cannot be fitted with snowchains 
You have to fit the narrower 195/75r/16c's as it seems there is a possibility the chains will foul the suspension struts.
So, the decision about whether to buy winter tyres has been made for me, i'll have to buy the narrower ones in case chains are needed.
This is good and bad news because the chains from my last van wouldn't have fitted the 215 width tyres  but they will fit the 195's 

Any fwd transit owners out there, make sure you check your manual before buying chains. 

pete


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi,

seems that some clarifications are needed... :wink: 

Legal situation in Germany: 
Since April this year it is required by law to have tyres fitted that are "suitable to the actual road conditions" while driving. So you don't have to have winter tyres, but if you have not and the roads are snowy you may not drive. If you can afford to wait some days until the roads are cleared you do not need winter tyres. 

And in Austria: 
Legal situation is similar to Germany. Besides that they quite frequently announce "Winter equipment required" ("Winterausrüstung erforderlich") for certain mountain roads. That means either winter tyres or snow chains.

Besides the legal stuff: 
While it may be legal to have winter tyres only on the drive-axle (in fact I am not at all sure it is), I would strongly recommend to have winter tyres on all wheels. Especially in Austria during January/February. Be aware that sudden weather changes occur quite frequently at this season. If it is +10 degrees and wet in the evening it might very well be -20 degrees and 30 cm of snow next morning. So, unless you really can afford to stay grounded for some days, you should have winter tyres and snow chains.

I have two complete sets of wheels for both my car and my motorhome. During the next two or three weeks I will change over to winter tyres. The snow chains are always in the van, as they also come quite handy in summer if getting stuck in the mud.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## neilandsue (Jul 13, 2006)

Thank you Gerhard and to you all for the excellent posts, It's remarkable the wealth of information to be had on this website!

I have asked our local tyre dealer for a price for winter tyres, mine are Continental Vanco 8, keep you posted on price!

Regards,

Neil

ps Thanks Pete for the maps of Dover and Dunkirk overnight parking...came in very useful


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Thanks Gerhard, knew you'd come up with the goods.

Neil wrote;


> I have asked our local tyre dealer for a price for winter tyres, mine are Continental Vanco 8, keep you posted on price!


Neil, we've got Continetals on ours as well, seems like the ones to go for would be the VancoWinter's, I wonder who they paid to think of the name :wink: .....

>>here<<

>>here<<

Let us know if you get a good price.

pete.


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## Traveller_HA5_3DOM (May 9, 2005)

from boff 

Legal situation in Germany: 
Since April this year it is required by law to have tyres fitted that are "suitable to the actual road conditions" while driving. 
from me
Can someone explain what the phrase "suitable to the actual road conditions" means in a legal seance. Are these tyres marked in some way for ice and snow, rain and slush. I think you will find a similar phrase in the British Construction and use regulations. Then again are not some tyres manufactured for all weathers, do you recall a warning on any tyre that says do no use in these conditions. I think if some tyres were unsuitable a warning would be attached. The reality of packed snow is that chains or studs will give limited traction not much else will.


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Traveller_HA5_3DOM said:


> Can someone explain what the phrase "suitable to the actual road conditions" means in a legal seance. Are these tyres marked in some way for ice and snow, rain and slush.


Hi,

well, that is difficult as this will be the first winter with the new law in practice, so us Germans don't really know yet...

Fact is that an "official" winter tyre:
a) is marked with a "snowflake" icon
b) has at least 4 millimetres of profile.

If you have such "official" winter tyres on you are legally on the safe side, no matter what road conditions there are. (Except if on certain roads snow chains are explicitly required by this sign, then you also need chains:









Fact is also that _rain_ and _wet but not frozen roads_ do *not require* winter tyres.

Another fact is that all over Germany, but especially in the South, sudden heavy snow fall and temperatures below freezing do from time to time occur between approx. October and April. Especially in the mountains, of course. So if you are driving on summer tyres during this period, you have to be aware of the possibility that you might be grounded for some days.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## 96783 (Nov 23, 2005)

Boff is, as always, specific and correct. His advice for Germany bears out my understanding from my son. "Suitable for the actual conditions" has to be tied in with the fact that a fine may/will be levied if you delay or hold up other traffic because you don't have suitable tyres (ergo winter tyres) for the conditions. So, yes you don't have to have them and also yes it might well be foolish not to. You might get away with it but then again you might not!


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## Traveller_HA5_3DOM (May 9, 2005)

What a minefield this topic turned out to be. Found the symbol for winter tyres it is a mountain with a snowflake symbol in it. Problem is the suitable tyre for motorhomes is the Camping tyre because of it's strength an durability. Tried all the manufacturers I could think of and no one does a camping tyre with the winter compounds and tread pattern. It looks like we should only be using them in the nice weather. Alko in particular state that camping tyres should be used. My point therefore is if the winter camping tyre is not made how can it be used?


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Traveller_HA5_3DOM said:


> Problem is the suitable tyre for motorhomes is the Camping tyre because of it's strength an durability. Tried all the manufacturers I could think of and no one does a camping tyre with the winter compounds and tread pattern.


Hi,

no problem. You can have winter tyres with the same dimension and load index as your summer (camping) tyres. Maybe with a lower speed index, but that should not be an issue for a motorhome.

The "secret" of the "Camping" or "CP" tyres is that they can stand in fact a higher load than the load index indicates. However, as long as you do not exceed any axle load limits you should have no problem.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## neilandsue (Jul 13, 2006)

Sorry to create such a minefield 8O .But I would sooner find out now than be stranded on a stellplatz waiting for a thaw!!!

My Merc chassis has Continental Vanco 8's which is the highest rated tyre I can get (115N) and they do these in a winter version called Vancowinter would you believe!

My local tyre dealer says Continental UK does not stock the winter tyres and would have to order them from abroad, takes about two weeks and cost £117 each incl fitting...ouch! They can be found on line at mytyres.co.uk and cost £87.20 delivered, fitting is extra and a link is provided to your local "Mounting Partner".....the mind boggles 

Regards,

Neil


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## 96962 (Dec 16, 2005)

a good point for me to chip in my tuppence worth: I had the same debate and nearly the same post title earlier this year. After all advice i finally decided to get winter tyres only to find I couldn't get hold of them in this country in time for my trip. I tried to arrange it with a German dealer to call in on the way through and he couldn't get hold of any either!

So the motto is order in advance if you decide to get them.


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## haylingchrist (May 15, 2005)

Boff,

You've raised the question I was going to ask - alright saying you legally need winter tyres, but just what qualifies?

I've done 4 ski seasons in Chamonix, the first 3 in a 3.5 tonne Ducato coachbuilt and 1 in a 5 tonne Iveco. We've never had winter tyres and I'd say you don't _need_ them from a practical viewpoint. Though we do pick our time to move around, we've never had to wait more than a few hours - the roads get cleared pretty quickly. 

My chains have got a lot of use though. On a front wheel drive van winter tyres a just a luxury if you're too lazy to put the chains on. You can do it in about 5 minutes with practice. A thick pair of rubber gloves and a bit of carpet to kneel on will make it a much more pleasant experience. Twin rear wheels are another thing though and it can be almost impossible to get the chains on unless you can move the vehicle. 

I've had Michelin Agilis 81s on both vans and recon they are pretty good if newish - much better than the Vanco's I tried one year. My guess is the Micheln 'camping cars' fitted to lots of vans are pretty rubbish too. The standard Agilis has a 'mud and snow' tread according to Michelin (though there is a 'winter' version too) so do these qualify as winter tyres ???

Chris


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

I think a tyre needs to have the snowflake icon on the sidewall to qualify properly as a true winter tyre....










Some text from the >>Continental<< website confirms my thoughts that VancoWinter are the ones I shall be going for (Ford Transit), they have the snowflake icon and are supplied in most sizes suitable for motorhomes. (Michelin also do a winter version of the Agilis). I think It would be prudent to further check that the tyres you choose have a suitable load rating for each axle you intend to fit winter tyres on.
As Dangler mentioned, order early seems to be good advice, most uk companies are unlikely to hold any stocks.

pete.


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## bazzal (Apr 15, 2006)

*winter tyres*

Hi all, I am going to southern Germany for Christmas and have camping tyres on my Autocruise and after reading the posts regarding the winter tyre question I decided to ring the RAC today to get their advice regarding the facts, they said that they have NOT had any instruction to say that winter tyres must be fitted unless you are travelling in the mountains. They told me that if I have snowchains with me then I have taken reasonable actions to cope with conditions and told me that I should not need to fit winter tyres and should go, also the fact that I am only visiting for a few days and will be parked up for most of that they say dont worry!
Cheers Baz...............


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi Chris!



haylingchrist said:


> You've raised the question I was going to ask - alright saying you legally need winter tyres, but just what qualifies?


As I (and peejay) have already written, it is the snowflake icon (plus minimum 4 millimetres of profile depth) that _legally_ qualifies a winter tyre.



haylingchrist said:


> Though we do pick our time to move around, we've never had to wait more than a few hours - the roads get cleared pretty quickly.


Yes, that is true. However, having lived many years in the more mountainous regions of Germany and Austria I have several times been in situations when either so much snow came down in such short time that they simply did not manage to clear the roads in time - OK, admitted, then you are stuck even with winter tyres because the roads are blocked by other cars not having winter tyres. Or that it got so cold that the de-icing salt ceased to function (it only works down to about -13 degrees C).

During this time I have also more than a few times been in situations where I could feel the difference between winter and summer tyres. Even on dry roads! Because at low temperatures winter tyres simply provide a significantly shorter braking distance.



haylingchrist said:


> My chains have got a lot of use though. On a front wheel drive van winter tyres a just a luxury if you're too lazy to put the chains on.


Yes, my chains have also been in use several times. Nevertheless winter tyres, even on front-wheel driven vans like mine, are more than a luxury, because chains only help on snow (and on wet grass, by the way), but are not really good on slush.



haylingchrist said:


> I've had Michelin Agilis 81s on both vans and recon they are pretty good if newish - much better than the Vanco's I tried one year. My guess is the Micheln 'camping cars' fitted to lots of vans are pretty rubbish too. The standard Agilis has a 'mud and snow' tread according to Michelin (though there is a 'winter' version too) so do these qualify as winter tyres ???


The "mud and snow" tread is just a marketing thing, it does not (neither legally nor practically) qualify as a winter tyre. It is the snowflake symbol that counts.

No experience with the Vancos, have always had Michelin. The Michelin "XC Camping" is indeed pretty lousy on snow, especially if it is not pristine anymore. I have no experience with the standard Agilis 81, but I have the "Snow/Ice" version of the Agilis, which is a genuine winter tyre (wearing a snowflake) and it does make a difference.

In fact the reason for the new law in Germany is that up to now every year the same happened: 
First day: The first snow has fallen over night, in the morning mayhem on the roads, thousands of accidents.
Second day: Garages are extremely busy repairing accident damage and fitting winter tyres.
Third day: Winter tyres are sold out.
Fourth day: The snow melts... :wink:

The same will then repeat a few weeks later...

I sincerely hope that the new law will mitigate this to some degree. However, this law is breaking some kind of tradition as it appeals to common sense, while Germans usually know their laws being either obligations or interdictions and nothing in between. With this new law they need to make use of that grey mass between their ears, and I am really interested in the results. :wink:

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## neilandsue (Jul 13, 2006)

Thank you to all who answered my original post... VangoWinter tyres now on order!
On the subject of snow chains :? you might be interested in RUD Chains from ..Snowchainsdirect.co.uk
Fantastic service, delivered within three days and the cheapest I could find for genuine RUD Compact Power/ Grip V for motorhomes or 4x4's £71. delivered  

Regards

Neil


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## 96783 (Nov 23, 2005)

I hope no-one minds me resurrecting this thread one year on. Our new motorhome arrived at the dealer on Friday and he will spend the next week or so fitting the extras - a (very) small dealership and the owner/salesman/mechanic (probably) will do much of the work himself. However, he's totally thrown us by ordering a set of wheels with winter tyres fitted which, if we say so, he will fit to the van and store the alloys, FOC, until we need them. The cost of the 4 wheels is €1,200 which seems to me to be a bit of a good deal unless, as Esther used to say, you know different. The van, by the way, is an A Class on a Mercedes Sprinter chassis. We will collect on the 20th. What I do not know yet is what tyres are fitted as original equipment, nor yet what he's ordered for the winter wheels.

My questions arise purely on our travels for the winter. Last year we went to Spain in November returning in early February and, while we saw snow on the tops of the French Alps as we by passed them, we were never in or near snow or "proper" winter conditions. This winter in early January we depart for Northern Spain and the Atlantic coast of Portugal crossing France from Mons to Biarritz via Paris before running round the Bay of Biscay into Spain. First destination is Santiago de Compostela before travelling down to Porto and Lisbon to be joined by one or both sons for a few days golf. If we get bored with the Atlantic coast we may pop inland and spend some time in the interior.

Now:
1. Is the purchase wortwhile on the basis of better safe than sorry?
2. Are we likely to hit any real winter conditions in central France or crossing the gap between the Pyrenees and the coast?
3. We don't use the van at home so the next trip will probably not be until June to Amboise in the Loire Valley.

Clearly not long term use but the grey matter between the ears is finely balanced between insurance and possibly wasting money. We never needed winter tyres last year and my feeling is that, on present plans, we won't need them this year either. What do others out there think?


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Yes*

Yes you do.

Something I have written a fair bit about on this forum.

However, If you are going to buy winter tyres, research the tyres well before you buy. There is a lot of choice out there. I run all our vehicles on winter tyres all year. In the past I have bough winter tyres with the "Severe Winter" markings and they have been usless in rain let alone snow.

The best place to research is here >>Click Here<<

Select UK at the top right of the page
Select Commercial Van tyres

I buy from mytyres and get them fitted by a family member or locally.

Need any help or when you decide on some tyre(s), I would be happy to give you my opinion of what you have chosen.

Trev.


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## Wupert (Aug 6, 2007)

Don Madge said:


> Pete,
> 
> "
> 
> ...


If you have an accident in Austria and do not have winter tyres on then you are considered to be at fault.


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## richard863 (May 1, 2005)

*Do I need Winter Tyres? & chains*

Good morning all
Reading through this very informative thread. Now it has set me thinking.
I am booked into Sesto in the Dolomites in February. 
While I have a set of Spider spike chains that I use for the front driven wheels. Would it be advisable to have a separate set of chains for the rear wheels and could I get away with just one set for the Tag axle, if so which would be the best set of wheels to have them on? 
Kind regards


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi Richard,

I would be extremely careful with snow chains on tag axles! Keep in mind that centrifugal forces are pulling the chains away from the tyre surface while driving. So if you have chains on both tag-axle wheels, the two chains might catch each other, and if you have chains only on one wheel, they might rip apart the other one. Both seem to me to be quite destructive scenarios...

And anyway, chains only really make sense on the driven wheels.

BTW, from 1st January 2008 on also in Austria winter tyres will be legally required when there is snow on the road.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Tired*

Hello again,

Not a moan at anyone in particular here but this winter tyre subject is getting a bit like the A frame one. Almost every detail has already covered over and over again. From how many chains are needed, tread depth and laws.

I think myself and Boff have answered most if not all of the posts. 
All that needs to be done is to............

Click Forums,
Search,

Type a simple qery like "snowchains" "winter and tyres"

and a good few posts should be revealed.

I can understand newbies posting new topics not regular users.

Richard, If you read the reply I gave in two other topics, there is some information regarding fitting five chains to vehicles. Though I am not too sure about tag axles. As far as I know they are not required. I would suggest that for Tag axles where you feel fitting chains would be beneficial or if the law stated they must be used, that they be fitted to the foward of the two axles. Though as Boff mentioned this could cause problems. Have you tried contacting Alko or Fiat? Does it not state anything in the user manual?. If not then It should.

Five chains are recomended on two axle six wheel vehicles, in certain countries driving laws state yous should carry five.

Trev.

Though


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## Duadua (Feb 16, 2006)

Boff

Have read with interest last year and this year your comments re winter tyres and Austria. Many thanks for that.

Not sure I could afford them however, but even if I could, I could not even find winter tyres for our MH - 275/80R/22.5.

We are off to Austria again just after Christmas, and will not be travelling up into the mountains, instead staying low and after exiting the Arlberg tunnel will take the first turning to the left and will reach the camp site in less than .5 km from the motorway, on a slip road which is used by the ski buses and is snow ploughed 24/7.

As for snow chains on dual tyres at the rear? My human ruler to check the pressure of the rear tyres during the course of the day, only allows two finger joints between the inner and outer tyre walls. So I am not sure about chains either and will assume that motorists are not invited to put chains on on the motorways, and as before will rely upon a cleared road from motorway to camp site. 

So a general question perhaps. Are chains ever expected on Austrian or German motorways, or is it assumed / expected that motorways remain clear. Presumably motorists do not stop on the motorway itself, between service stations, to put chains on if they are caught unexpectedly in snowy conditions?

I understand the common sense of having chains when travelling up and into high mountain resorts etc. 

So I have enjoyed the discussion once again, but fear I may not meet the stricter rules if they are applied.

Many thanks,

Duadua


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## 96783 (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: Tired*



teemyob said:


> Hello again,
> 
> Not a moan at anyone in particular here but this winter tyre subject is getting a bit like the A frame one. Almost every detail has already covered over and over again. From how many chains are needed, tread depth and laws.
> 
> ...


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Duadua said:


> So a general question perhaps. Are chains ever expected on Austrian or German motorways, or is it assumed / expected that motorways remain clear. Presumably motorists do not stop on the motorway itself, between service stations, to put chains on if they are caught unexpectedly in snowy conditions?


Hi,

well, I put on the snow chains when I get stuck without. Not earlier. So far this has never happened to me on a motorway, but I have had it once on a German A-road ("Bundesstrasse").

Though, occasionally it does happen that conditions suddenly turn so bad that snow chains would become necessary on a motorway. In theory at least. In practice they would not help any further, because then the motorway would be blocked for miles by cars not having chains or even driving on summer tyres. Has happened to colleagues of mine on a business trip to Germany one or two years ago, they had to spend the night in their car! In such cases you don't want chains, you want to have a fully-equipped *motorhome* instead of a normal car! :wink:

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Duadua (Feb 16, 2006)

Boff,

Many thanks for that.

It seems that common sense still rules ok on motorways.

If you get stuck without chains on the motorway you will have the company of many others who are similarly stuck and if you are stuck it would be best to be stuck in a motorhome.

If you get stuck and put chains on, you will remain stuck as others may not have chains and if you are stuck it would be best to be stuck in a motorhome. 

It would also be against motorway rules, I imagine, to get out of your vehicle on the motorway to put chains on.

I am also wary of the requirement to remove chains at the earliest opportunity in order not to damage the tyres, vehicle and most importantly to the local or national authority, the road itself. So say you were using chains on the motorway and were some 70 odd kms away from a service areas, and the snow had suddenly stopped and the road was clear. It would neither be advisable to continue driving a further 70 odd kms with chains on a clear road, nor would it be safe to stop on the motorway and take them off.

So if you stick to motorways door to door for skiing, then chains may not be a requirement, in practice at least.

Are winter tyre signs seen on German and Austrian motorways or just in the mountains on lesser roads? As stated winter tyres for us may not be an option at any cost as we haven't found any? You would have thought though that homegrown RVers spending time in Alaska or US winter ski resorts would have a solution.

Perhaps they fit chains around both dualies? But I hear that is a nightmare to fit.

Many thanks again,

Duadua

PS I should confirm the risk is mine and not yours of course, but your local knowledge is once again most useful.


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## 101405 (Oct 15, 2006)

*tyres*

I would check to see if you can fit 2 x drive axel! (front) if a smaller size is recomended you must remember that reduces your axel weight ?


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Duadua said:


> Are winter tyre signs seen on German and Austrian motorways


Well, actually: Never! :wink: Because "winter tyre signs" don't exist.

The equivalent to a winter tyre sign would be a road surface covered by snow or slush. If that occurs and you have summer tyres on, then you have to stop at the nearest legal place (e.g. a service station), and wait there until roads have been cleared. How long it takes.

Some mountain roads (at high altitudes only, not motorways) might not be completely cleared at all during winter.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Wupert (Aug 6, 2007)

Boff said:


> Duadua said:
> 
> 
> > Are winter tyre signs seen on German and Austrian motorways
> ...


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Winter*



Wupert said:


> Boff said:
> 
> 
> > Duadua said:
> ...


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi,

I now have some details about the new winter tyre regulations in Austria. They become active on 1st January 2008:

If between 1st November and 15th April roads should be covered with snow, slush or ice, then driving a motor vehicle is only allowed if it has winter tyres on *all wheels*.

As an alternative it is allowed to drive on summer tyres with snow chains on all powered wheels, but only if the snow layer is so thick that damage of the road surface by the chains is excluded.

BTW, the obligation to have headlights always on in Austria will be cancelled again with the same date.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Duadua (Feb 16, 2006)

As some, but not all of you it seems, may have understood I am not advocating that winter regulations in any alpine country be ignored or openly flouted.

BUT ....

I have tried to ascertain whether or not I could comply should there be a requirement for winter tyres or chains, regardless of the costs involved or the to be imagined difficulty perhaps in fitting chains.

SO ....

The following may only be of interest to Monaco owners, owners of motorhomes with 275 / 80R / 22.5 tyres, or owners for whom winter tyres may not be available for their motor homes, so apologies for the narrow interest, but I still think it worth posting here.

I repeat the following is not my opinion, but the facts as I have found them so far, and thank you once again Boff for your local knowledge, research and advice given so far on this subject.

275 / 80R / 22.5 winter tyres

So far I have not found these tyres to be available either in this country or any other. During the course of looking for winter tyres I have spoken to Goodyear, whose regular RV tyres we have, US Automotive, a specialist in Bedford, as recommended by Goodyear UK, who have been very helpful and Sintons, who can import any tyres to order who have also been helpful. None of the above can find or are aware of a winter tyre in this size.

I have also exchanged emails with the technical dept at Monaco who confirm and are happy that I post comments here.

_" Our coaches that are shipped to cold climates are not equipped with winter only tires, this being mostly in Canada. "_

....

_"You ask my opinion on the tires being changed to winter only tires? In my years of doing technical support and the large tires that are used on motor homes like yours and speaking to many owners who live only in cold weather climates state these tires 295/80R.225 tires handle the cold weather driving very well. Also the cost to have extra tires to be changed is very extreme to something other then the original tires installed. " _

The incorrect reference re 295 / 275 tyres is corrected in later email from Monaco.

....

_"In the US we have many areas that are very cold but we do not change the tires to a winter tire. In my opinion and knowledge of tires and cold weather I would not recommend the tires be changed to a winter only use tire. "_

Chains

_"As the question about tires chains for this size of coach is not really feasible, they would be very hard to install and is little clearance for the chains when installed. "_

I am grateful to Monaco for their input in all this.

The above extracts / quotes are taken randomly from a recent exchange of emails on the subject, are not arranged in any significant order and should not be relied upon. I have not quoted entire emails so as to keep the posting relatively short and succint.

I did enquire whether or not they would be happy for this to be posted on a forum and I received the reply:

_"I have no issues with this being posted on a forum. "_

To recap, it is not my intention to drive up into the mountains, or indeed to travel any further than say 0.5 kms max. off the motorway. We made the exactly the same journey last year and at the same time of year. The 0.5 km is cleared 24/7. I have seen the flashing amber lights of the snow plough at all hours of the day, as it keeps the motorway exit clear all the way to the camp site entrance, for campers and the ski bus, whose continual running through all snow conditions is relied upon by skiers and the local authority alike.

If at any stage the driving conditions on the motorway are so poor as to make travel unsafe or dangerous then I will stop as soon as it is safe to do so, in a safe place bearing in mind the conditions at the time and wait until the conditions improve.

Whether or not we carry chains, we shall be in the same position as many who may be caught out should the weather suddenly turn against us mid-way between service stations on a motorway, as nobody should use chains on cleared roads, or use chains because it might snow. The use of chains on cleared roads, is not allowed, since it ruins the roads, wears out the chains very quickly and could possibly lead to unnecessary and potentially dangerous damage to the tyres, the vehicle and ultimately to other road users.

If I am at a motorway service station and conditions are poor or unsafe, I will remain there until such time as the conditions are safe again.

If I were superstitious I would simply cross my fingers and trust that the motorways are kept clear, which is much more likely in Alpine countries with metres of snow, then in the good old and ill prepared UK where all comes to a grinding halt after 1/2 an inch of snow.

It would be good to balance the above with any owners who have exerience of RV's in winter in the USA and or Alpine countries.

The above exercise and questions asked are in preparation should I get stopped by the Austrian Authorities. Whatever I say may of course count for nothing if stopped! That is my risk which I have tried to assess.


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## richard863 (May 1, 2005)

*New from Michelin*

Hi All
Having researched different manufacturers this seems to be another minefield. I am grateful to Trev (teemyob) for all the advise given. He is now up in Norway somewhere, well prepared I hope.

Below is mail I just got from Michelin it may be of help to someone:-

The new Michelin tyre design 'Agilis Camping' will be the ideal product for all-season use:

215/75 R 16CP 113Q 'Agilis Camping'

'Agilis Camping': Motorhomes
Heavily braced construction, designed to run at higher pressures (up to 80 psi).
New technology to extend tyre life. 
Multiple kerbing protectors for resistance to sidewall scuffing
'M+S' marked: Mud & snow on road, all-season, wide temperature range

Stock is intended during January 2008. Should delay in stock be involved & you require immediate tyre fitments, the following tread patterns relate to the size stated, but these product do not have the overload capability of the 'motorhome' tyres:

215/75 R 16C 113R 'Agilis 81'

215/75 R 16C 113R 'Agilis 81 Snow & Ice'

'Agilis 81': All-season
Fulfils the functions of 'performance, comfort, durability & adherence': all the road performance of a passenger car tyre transferred to light utility vehicles.
'M+S' marked: mud & snow on road.

The above pattern range is soon to be superseded by 'Agilis', no longer 'M+S marked.

'Agilis 81 Snow & Ice': Winter/cold-weather
Fulfils the functions of 'performance, comfort, durability & adherence': all the road performance of a passenger car tyre transferred to light utility vehicles.
Designed to handle all the hazards of winter roads:
Excellent adhesion on deep, hard-packed snow.
Tread pattern can be studded.
'M+S' marked: Mud & snow on road

Both above patterns can be used all-year-round, but the specific 'winter' is biased more towards cold-weather conditions &, as such, may not achieve optimum mileage when used in summer months.

Until actual 'running' individual axle weights have been determined or verified on a weighbridge, I suggest that the following tyre inflation pressure values be used:

Front:	69 psi
Rear 1:	50 psi
Rear 2:	50 psi

Thank you for your interest in Michelin.

Yours sincerely,
Michelin Tyre Public Limited Company


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## alunj (Sep 5, 2007)

i am luck that my hymer seems to have a popular size of 15" tyre.
I run Vanco Winter Contacts 2 from November to April in the UK ad abroad. 
Dont be misled by M&S rating its become meaningless ( My vw had Agilis 51 on it they were 100% useless in the snow)
Most French autorities will now accept the snowflake marking as evidence of a winter tyres and not insist on chains. The vancos have this mark as do the 
Nokian WR C that I now use year round on the T5. Bear in mind they make a big differenece on wet grass / mud too.
I find that mytres keep a good range of all season and winter tyres.


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