# Nightmare Dogs



## Garcia (Mar 5, 2010)

We have 3 rescue dogs, all about 2 years or so now. They’re gorgeous and I love ‘em to bits but , boy , are they a handful. I’ve had dogs all my life so am not inexperi need, but after this week I am starting to think I’m too old for young active boystrous pups!
We have just had a nightmare week.
Last week, I went to the car outside our place and foolishly left the gate open for 1 minute. Didn’t see 2 of them sneak out out. Went back inside and only noticed them missing a half hour later.
Out all night, searched the whole of the following day, using a half tank of petrol....no sign.....they limped exhausted down the road at 6.30 pm and slept for 2 days. God knows where they got to.
Then 2 days ago I drove 8 k to a local forest with lakes. Early in the morning 7 am .
Let em off for a run. They had a swim and disappeared. Spent the day in the forest searching. When I got home I found the cops had brought them home after they killed a neighbours chickens!!!! 
How they got the 8 k from the forest to home i’ll Never know!
Had to pay the old dear for her hens obviously, but that’s it for me now. They are on extendable long leads for the foreseeable future.
There’s just too much wildlife round here and they are obviously hunters. They’d had a rabbit or 2 in the fields around our place but, can’t have them going into neighbours places, there’s farms, goats and small holdings all over....and now they have a taste for a kill!
Garcia


----------



## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

A wise and responsible move to keep them under control as dogs are especially dangerous in a pack scenario, and as you say they have had a taste of it and will only revert to their pack behaviour.

Terry


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Firstly, I feel very sorry for you as I know you love these dogs dearly.
Secondly, why are you telling us this? Do you want advice or is it just to get the worry off your chest?


----------



## Garcia (Mar 5, 2010)

JanHank said:


> Firstly, I feel very sorry for you as I know you love these dogs dearly.
> Secondly, why are you telling us this? Do you want advice or is it just to get the worry off your chest?


Probably......sometimes theres's a need to share a problem....
But any advice from someone who has had a similar experience would be gratefully received......
G


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Sympathise 

We have the hound from hell

Travelling a nightmare 

Yet he has travelled from a pup 

Nothing changes his protective nature , in the van or garden 

Visitors, come in sit down , and introduced , and he’s anyones 

On the road it’s his mission in life to protect 

He’s not keen on other dogs although he will ignore them as long as they ignore him

Unfortunately little dogs don’t 

And owners often feel it’s adorable, how brave they are

Unaware one bite will end their dogs life 

So have them on a long lead 

And we have shadow tight 

So their yapping dogs are safe 

After all they could get stuck in his throat >

Sandra:wink2:


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Garcia said:


> Probably......sometimes theres's a need to share a problem....
> But any advice from someone who has had a similar experience would be gratefully received......
> G


I think you'll be better off talking to people who haven't had that experience and finding out why they haven't. :laugh:


----------



## Garcia (Mar 5, 2010)

JanHank said:


> I think you'll be better off talking to people who haven't had that experience and finding out why they haven't. :laugh:


Maybe
But ,with rescue dogs you never know what they are.....these are clearly hounds and so it's in their nature, and i'm Just going to have to be extra careful in future.....
Thought they'd calm down after they were 2 but ...they are so unpredictable.
Fine on their own...beautiful, gentle, affectionate but 2 or more together and I have a pack !
G


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Jan

You haven’t 

Believe me I had german shepherds for 40 years 

Never have I ever had the hound from hell 

And it may be down to our incommpenace on this one hound 

Or maybe not

I have ten grandchildren

Most academically brilliant , keen on studies 

Two not

One adopted with special needs so academically won’t go far, but hey who knows how far she will go 

One, intelligent , clever but just won’t follow the path 

He’s with Shadow 

Sandra


----------



## greygit (Apr 15, 2007)

As we have had mainly sight hounds we work on the assumption that if anything runs the dogs will go after it so leads have to be used most of the time.
Recently we visited a local beauty spot that had a lake, after looking around and deciding that there was nothing for the dogs to chase we let them off the leads. Our whippet decided there was prey in the shape ducks on the lake and in fact she did seam to run on water before going under. A very embarrassed whippet swam back to the shore while the ducks carried on as if nothing had happened .:grin2:


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Happened to us once

When one of our dogs was a pup

We were walking along side the canal which was covered with duck weed 

The pup was running and continued to run on the canal until he finally sank 

Had to be fished out 

Sandra


----------



## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Yes, Garcia, I have had exactly the same problem as you are experiencing. Never with a herding or working breed always with hounds. First was a Greyhound cross, second was a Whippet and then, the worst, was a Romanian rescue. They were all very obedient and used to win rosettes at obedience competitions that we entered for fun. Recall with all of them was near perfect. Show them some wildlife and their, very strong, hunting instinct took over. With the Romanian rescue we stopped walking him anywhere near fields and forests unless he was on a lead. Beaches were fine or country parks where there were no deer or hare to encounter. Rabbits just bolt to ground and pheasants fly up out of reach. Our new puppy is a Cocker Spaniel! We vowed after the last hound died never to have another one unless we moved to somewhere more suburban. I absolutely love their nature but not their prey drive 


We had a similar incident, with the Romanian hound, to your chicken incident. He chased a hare and disappeared into the distance. He always returned to where we walked so we waited and waited. After about 45 minutes, Chris went off home to get the car to search a wider area. We, eventually, got a call from a farmer who told us that the dog was in a free range chicken enclosure. This enclosure would, normally, contain, thousands of chickens but they were all locked up due to bird flu. Phew! Apparently it was not the first time a dog had chased a hare in there! We reckon the hare played with the dogs and took them under the electric fence into the enclosure, made its escape, and watched the poor dog stay trapped behind the electric fence as it was too scared to get zapped again!
This dog was unapproachable by strangers. We were the only ones he would allow to handle him. The lovely farmer lady told him to "sit" (which he did!) and crawled, on her belly, to read his id tag so that she could phone us. He was more ecstatic to see us than we were to see him when we went to collect him 


As I say, never again.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

We trained a friends Weimaraner, it lived on a farm, was loose all day, no problems.


----------



## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Weimeraners are Gundogs, Jan. Not nearly as much prey drive as a hound. Gundogs are bred to listen to their handler. Hounds are bred to just chase until they catch it or drop from exhaustion trying  When they are not chasing they are the sweetest creatures in the world.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I just do not understand why anyone chooses a dog they *believe* will bugger off at the slightest chance.


----------



## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Well, technically, Weimeraners are Hunt, Point, Retrieve dogs. Still means that they are bred, for generations to listen and respond to commands. The "Point" and "Retrieve" is by far the most dominant trait as most Gundog people, nowadays, do not want the hunting side to take over the other two traits.


Any dog can be switched on to hunting though. It is self rewarding and part of their survival instinct. It is just that hounds get a special buzz out of it that seems to act like a class A drug!


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I just do not understand why anyone would choose a dog they *believe * will bugger off at the slightest chance.
I will never accept these dogs cannot be taught to behave themselves, sorry, don't want to get into an argument, but thats my firm opinion and nobody will ever change my mind, so don't start getting on to me :frown2:


----------



## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

You don't know until you own one Jan. Then you think it was just "that dog". Then you speak to others and you realise that hounds find chasing things such an adrenaline rush that nothing in the world can beat it!
When we train our dogs we reward them with something they enjoy. They perform as we ask in order to enjoy the reward. Nothing can reward a hound, for coming back when called, that beats the thrill of the chase.
Giving them a high value treat, a cuddle, a fantastic game of tug just does not beat that huge surge of adrenaline that they get on a chase. Never taken a Class A drug but I bet it comes close to how these dogs feel when chasing and hunting 

Getting back to Garcia's dilemma. We kept ours on an extending lead when there was any danger of wildlife. He got a good 2 hours per day walking. We also sought out places that had perimeter fences such as large suburban parks. We even considered moving near one as we enjoyed our walks with him so much when he made us proud playing with other dogs and coming when called.
Is there a farmer who will let you use a large fenced field for off lead exercise? Hounds are lazy, when not chasing things, so you would not need it for long every day. It is becoming big business near us for people to fence a field, put a lock on with a numbered code to enter, and rent it by the hour to people with hounds or dogs with aggression issues.

Your problems are far, far worse for owning more than one dog. If one dog goes hunting and loses the prey then he is much more likely to feel isolated and vulnerable and, therefore, come home. Two dogs together will feel that they have "back up" and carry on hunting for much longer. My brother could leave one terrier unattended in his yard but never two because they would bugger off through a gap in the fence to the local quarry for a spot of rabbiting.

I have found an article that you might like to read about how a dog trainer did manage to re train her dog with a strong prey drive but it was not a Hound. http://manchesterdogtrainer.blogspot.com/2010/10/controlling-predatory-chase-behaviour.html


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I see nothing about what you do with the dog at home, training gets very boring for the dog and owner, there needs to be more fun in the dogs life, after getting to know ours, playing with them at home, getting down on the floor with them, talking to them so they hang on to your every word in your conversations in case you say a word they understand, having the dog understand what you want from it, having that _special bond_. When you are the team leader and they willingly follow you, you are their world.

_*Rewarding a dog when it comes back after running off !!!! Oh no no, ignore it if its home.*_

Each one of our shepherds chased deer when we first had them which is natural to *all* dogs from Jack Russell to a Wolf Hound. 
In order to correct whatever it is the dog is doing wrong they have to do it at least once. (i.e. You can´t teach a puppy not to bite if its never gives you a nip)
It is most important for them to be intercepted before they are back and reprimanded all the way home, denied contact with you for half an hour, when let out ignored for a few minutes, not one of ours repeated the act.

Motley number one chased birds when we first had him, for his own safety he was cured of that in a similar way.
There are so many things we do that are not in a book, it just comes naturally.
We teach everything off lead, on lead is restraint and has nothing to do with control. 
As I have said before, none of the dogs we have looked after have ever absconded.

P.S. Except for our first 2 dogs the other 7 were all second, third or fourth hand untrained dogs who hardly new their names so were immediately renamed which took no time.

I could go on forever, but I´ll make these my last comments. Over & out.:laugh:


----------



## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

Anyone remember the episode in the TV Food Heroes series in which Chalky (Rick Stein's jack russell) on a visit to a farm shot off into the veggie garden and came back with a dead bunny in its teeth? (Much embarrassment!)


Dogs will be dogs!


----------



## DJMotorhomer (Apr 15, 2010)

I have never come across a bad dog....just bad owners !!
Dave


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I have videos of our 2 girls chasing rabbits in the Dales, they were allowed to by us and the farmer who owned the land which was covered with sheep and rabbits.
Anyway, Kristel was red hot at catching the rabbits, but poor Yuni was a beginner and didn't manage to catch any. One day, as proud as punch she returned from the rabbit hunt with a mummified rabbit that had been dead for months.
I have videos of the rabbit chases. but they are too long to bore you with.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Jan 
I guess you and Hans are brilliant dog trainers 

So I thought we’re

Until I met the hound from hell 

Nothing dissuades him from his protective role 

Unless he is introduced , when he really is a baby 

Unfortunately those outside the gate, or car or motorhome 

Don’t meet the category of introduced 

Out walking he is totally disinterested in anyone 

Unless they come too close to me when he takes interest 

But we know him well and take precautions

I’d rather we didn’t need to 

Sandra


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

We are just watching a youtube video of Kristel when she was 9 months old being taught to behave herself, its lovely and brings tears to the eyes.
If anyone wants to watch it I can put it on here.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

We have had dogs years ago when the kids were young and we love all animals. But now we enjoy other peoples pets as like grandkids you can give em back to the owners who then have the problems and expense.
And again we now notice their not so likeable habits. Most smell and we always put used clothes on when visiting. We see the hair and dirt low down and in corners and guess ours were just the same. But again like reformed smokers we abhor the stale smell of smoke even standing next to someone in a queue who must have put their *** outside the shop or business. I feel positively revolted when we dine with friends who allow their dog to lay under the table permeating damp dog odours.

Our neighbours hound many years ago ran off with one of our 'pet' chickens and I had to throw rocks at it to make the dog let go. Years later that dog still stays a good distance from me I'm glad to say as it has other revolting habits and has never been trained. Yes bad owner. But that same owner now has another gorgeous dog that is a pleasure to be with and so friendly.

Like people we can't like em all.

Ray.


----------



## Garcia (Mar 5, 2010)

Thanks for all the useful suggestions and comments. I’m still keeping them on a long lead for the time being but I guess i’ll Have to bite the bullit and try again. Don’t know how long the dog will remember the incident, but i’m Sure they know they did something as they’ve been tethered since it happened.
As I said at the start, i’ve Had dogs all my life from pedigrees to rescues. I’ve trained them all as much I I wanted. My dogs have never done tricks and if they come sit and stay that’s good enough for me. 
Even these three....on their own they are fine and really no problem, but 2 or more together and as Pat P said that old herding instinct takes over and no treat will distract them until they tire themselves
out.
I like to think I’m a responsible dog owner. Never let my dogs bother other people. Just sold my van to prove that. Three dogs on a campsite will be almost impossible to keep quiet at all times. Even if they are well behaved they will annoy some other camper. Better to kennel them and holiday with maybe just one. 
The law has just changed here to allow dogs in bars and restos if the patron is willing, but I have always hated loose dogs in bars as were found all over France. Though the Portuguese and Spanish total ban on dogs equally annoyed me. No matter how well behaved, indoors in a bar, the dog should be on a leash and under control and not roaming free.
I will get there with these three tho it will take some time and effort, tho I hope no more dead hens. We have made peace with the old woman who’s hens they killed and paid restitution and big bunch of flowers. 
I think it will be worth it in the end as they are all so affectionate and gorgeous. I am pleased I rescued them from the shelter tho it is a worry and a strain. But once a dog lover ...always a dog lover I guess.
Garcia


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Can you elaborate about the change in the law in Portugal about allowing dogs into Restaurants Garcia please?

Ray.


----------



## Garcia (Mar 5, 2010)

raynipper said:


> Can you elaborate about the change in the law in Portugal about allowing dogs into Restaurants Garcia please?
> 
> Ray.


The change was passed last Feb but came into effect this week.
A bar or resto can elect to allow dogs in , provided they are under control and not in food prep areas.
G


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Like you G

I would never take shadow into a bar or restaurant, regardless of how much people love their pets 

Others should not be subjected to them 

I may if it’s outdoors 

And have on the odd occasion in winter taken him into the climbers bar in the Langdales 

Buts that’s bare wood floors , muddy boots and I think the spittoons are no more >:wink2:

We loved it once upon a time , a day on the mountains and a cool pint amongst fellow walkers as the sun went down

Or out of the rain whichever was applicable :grin2:

But unless I get a poodle , he will be the last of 40 years of Long haired German Shepherds or any other dog

I’ll borrow winston my grandsons dog, my daily border , he hunts lions , in short supply around here :grin2:

Sandra


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

We spent last evening looking at a few videos from way back in 1992 to recently, do you know what, if I were a dog I would want to belong to this family :grin2: what fun all the dogs had.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Yep

If I was a dog I’d want to belong here 

A hound from hell 

Beloved by his family 

Beloved by me for all his faults 

My baby 

Far from perfect , a pain in the neck at times , a travelling nightmare 

A gentle hound at times , at others, no 

But we know this hound of ours 

Sandra


----------



## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Garcia, it is a popular misconception that dogs know they have done wrong. For that to have happened they would have to know the true meaning of right and wrong and that involves having morals. It has never been proved that dogs, or any other animals, have morals. It is the sole preserve of us humans (sometimes  ).

This means that punishment for wrong doing is pointless.

When a dog looks "guilty" what is actually going on in its head is anxiety. They know we are unhappy and they have found, in the past, that this is not good so they feel anxious. 

There is only one way to train a dog and that is to teach it that making the "right" choice is very rewarding. For some dogs this will be a smile and a pat. Others need a little more. The more difficult the task for the dog (read recall for a hound) the higher the reward needs to be. I once was able to call my lurcher off from a deer chase. She was getting on a bit and I had been training it for years (she had perfect recall at any other time). When she arrived I gave her five fantastic treats one after the other, I cuddled her, then, as she got her breath back I played a thrilling game of tug with her  This was all in the hope that the next time she was chasing a deer she would remember what I had to offer her if she came back to me when I called.

Now, if we think about the same dog on a deer hunt that has been punished in any way when it returns what do we think that dog would rather do? She could come back to punishment OR carry on with a fantastic, thrilling adrenaline rush of a deer chase.

To give it a human analogy, punishing a dog is like offering a man a clip round the ear instead of wages for a days work. Is he going to turn up the next day? He might do it once more..............


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

patp said:


> Garcia, it is a popular misconception that dogs know they have done wrong. For that to have happened they would have to know the true meaning of right and wrong and that involves having morals. It has never been proved that dogs, or any other animals, have morals. It is the sole preserve of us humans (sometimes  ).
> 
> This means that punishment for wrong doing is pointless.
> 
> ...


(read recall for a hound) 
Where do I find this Pat?

Afraid I can´t fully agree with all you have said, but I will leave it at that.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

jan 

Could you just have been lucky?

I’m thinking, ignoring all the dogs who went before who were not GS , and there were many 

Pups rescued following the poisoning , Gt Danes who wondered in starving , even a dog plucked from a waste bin , so malnourished it seemed blind 

Odin, Odin 2, so good we named him twice , Ben, Oliver , long haired german shepherds 

All beautiful hounds , obedient 

And shadow , beautiful 

But a hound from hell 

He would die protecting us, and we’ve never convinced him he doesn’t need to 

Adores his family, adores his teddy bear , grabs it whenever family comes to share his joy 

Who knows did his life changing moment occur when his intestines fell out ?

When he fought for his life 

When everything he ate flushed out the other side , and we worried he couldn’t thrive 

We can’t know everything 

We sometimes just need to work with what we are left with 

And we were left with the hound from hell 

And we thought he would die , but he thrived and gradually fought his way back

Was he different before?

I can’t remember anymore 

He’s alpha Mayo 

And maybe it’s what he needed to survive 

And he’s my baby 

A gentle giant

Until he’s not 

But we know the circumstances when he’s not

So take precautions 

Sandra


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Lucky, with 9 dogs?
None of them came well behaved they all had to learn.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Why not?
I was lucky with more than 9 

Sandra


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Dear Sandra, this is not a competition, I am only telling about our dogs and the way we treat/teach them because it may help at least one person to right/rectify a problem.

My videos are to show the way we do things and the relationship we have with all our dogs, you have seen it many times with Shade and Motley and this is the trend with all our dogs.

>
Also I have some followers who like to see my doggy videos, they have privately requested to see more and thats why I put them on the forum.:laugh:


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I love you’re videos 

Of course it’s not a competion

For one I don’t do videos

For two I own the hound from heel

A gentle giant 

Until he's not

But we know when he’s not, so control this hound 

Ask Barry, he was afraid of G shepherds 

Until he met the hound from hell and his teddy bear

He’s un predictable 

No not Barry , although >

We have different experieances 

And just sometimes you do come out as a know it all

And who knows

Maybe you do

Maybe the hound from hell would be so different if he belonged to you 

But he doesn’t 

He’s mine

So thank your lucky stars

Sandra


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

aldra said:


> I love you're videos
> 
> Of course it's not a competion
> 
> ...


Please show me where this has occurred Sandra because that is one trait I definitely do not have as far as I am aware, if my experience with dogs can help someone else then I am pleased, but to say I am a know it all is overdoing it a fraction I think.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Jan you dismiss all problems 

As down to the owner

And you may be right

I’m just saying more than 9 dogs, with never a problem

We actually got a hound from hell

A beautiful hound 

But nevertheless 

A hound from hell 

Sandra


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Show me where I said that Sandra? 
Even though the behaviour of a dog is the owners responsibility.
There are no bad puppies, what they become is solely due to environment and handling.

If Shadow thinks he has to protect you its because he has misunderstood something along the way.

I will give you a simple example of how a dog can misunderstand, simply because the timing is wrong.
Reece a GSD and Brandy a Sheltie. We were teaching Brandy to go over a little home made jump, Reece, who already knew how to do this, ran to jump over and we said " NO Reece" from then on he would not jump over, but he´d crawl under, so we had to move the jump to a different place in the garden before he would jump over it again. Our "*No* Reece" therefore was very bad timing.
The reason I try my hardest to help other people with dog problems is because I would like everyone to get the same pleasure from their dogs as we do from ours.
Of course it does also depend on what people expect from their dogs and I dare say the things we allow ours to do, like licking plates or getting on the bed when invited, roaming amongst sheep, or chasing rabbits whilst still being under our control is not what everyone wants. Sorry if that sounds as if I know everything, but I assure you I do not, We never managed to stop Shade from barking at other dogs when he was in the car, or how to stop Yuni from barking because she was so excitable the same goes for Motley.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Who knows jan

Maybe it stems from the time his intestines were dropping out 

When he fixed eyes with me

Willing me to understand his pain 

And I didn’t until it was almost too late 

But now when we fix eyes 

I sort it

So that makes him the alpha Mayo 

And in return he will protect me 

And he’s 10, so knows how long he’s got 

Or how long I’ve got 

But I doubt we will turn back the clock now

Sandra


----------

