# Extra batteries



## 96088 (Aug 22, 2005)

Hi Folks

I had a plan this afternoon to check out what I would need to do to add an extra 85amp leisure battery wired in parallel to my existing one under the driver's seat.

Sadly, I found that I would not be able to put it alongside the existing one due to a ridge running along the floor.

I then tried to identify a suitable spot near to the existing battery. Initial conclusion was, that the space between the driver's seat and the passenger seat was under-utilised and why not put it there? I know I would have to build secure brackets and box it in. 

Then I wondered why not put two extra batteries there, afterall there is the space and the extra available battery time would be brilliant.

I then stopped, made myself a cup of tea and tried to think this out.

The questions I could not answer myself are these...

1. Is what I am thinking of doing legal?

2. Will I end up gassing myself and the family?

3. Am I creating an unacceptable fire risk?

4. Is there another solution?

Opinions on the above and anything I may have missed would be very much appreciated

I think I understand what kind of wire is required, :-k


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## 88934 (May 10, 2005)

>The questions I could not answer myself are these... 

>1. Is what I am thinking of doing legal? 

I don't see why not. 

>2. Will I end up gassing myself and the family? 

Not if installed correctly. If you have Gel batteries (expensive) then not so much of a problem. However, wet batteries will need to be vented off through the floor to the outside ect. 

> 3. Am I creating an unacceptable fire risk? 

Not if installed correctly. 

>4. Is there another solution? 

Electric hookup


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## 88934 (May 10, 2005)

Ooops, forgot to say..

Usually the batteries will need to be close (next) to each other?


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## 92046 (May 1, 2005)

*Batteries*

Hi Oldskool

I have 1 x 85 ah dry-cell battery under the seat, but also have 2 x 85 ah bats ( a pair ) again dry type, ready to fit, and in the process of making up a carrier to clamp under the MH, on to the chassis, 
1 the weight is lower
2 no batteries will be inside the MH
3 access wil not be good, but was access any good under the seat
4 lots of room under the floor, to have an insulated box
5 and will be fitting a stainless box under the seat !!!

If fitting a wet cell type, it must be vented to the outside.

Good luck with the project Colin R.......


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## 88966 (May 11, 2005)

Hi Oldskool,

I am glad you have got the wire sorted !!

Be aware that batteries when gassing give off Hydrogen, which is highly flammable and lighter than air.

A word to the wise !!


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## 96088 (Aug 22, 2005)

wilecoyote said:


> Ooops, forgot to say..
> 
> Usually the batteries will need to be close (next) to each other?


The two (new) batteries would be adjacent to each other, there would however be a distance of about 15 inches between them and the one under the seat. Is that an issue?


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## 88966 (May 11, 2005)

The distance you mention is not a problem - the size of the connecting wire is, but then you say you know about that. 
It is also worth thinking about how you are going to recharge them, unless you will be regularly on hook-up.


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## 88934 (May 10, 2005)

BillD said:


> Be aware that batteries when gassing give off Hydrogen, which is highly flammable and lighter than air.


The Leisure batteries you install should have a little pipe supplied, which comes out the side of the battery... USE IT!?

Like BillD says, the gas produced is highly flammable. You need to feed the little pipe out through the floor ideally. So the battery gases are forced out of the van and into free space.


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## 96088 (Aug 22, 2005)

OK, I will dare to revisit my understanding of the wiring.

Big and heavy with as minimum a length as possible. I was thinking about visiting a commercial scrapyard to source the connections.

Could I end with cables that are too large?

Meanwhile, I was looking on the net for info about 'gassing' and found the following that was quite interesting...

Ten Commandments...


1. Beware of the thunder and lightning that Lurketh in charged batteries, lest it cause thee to bounce 
upon thy buttocks in a most unseemly manner. Cause thee no spark or short among them. 

2. Again, again I say unto you, Underestimate Not the energy of a shorted battery, for if thou so doest,
thy friends will surely be buying beers for thy lady and consoling her in certain ways not acceptable to thee.

3. Suffer thou any DC installation doth comply with ABYC and or suffer Mightily Of The Plague of Lawyers,
who will separate thee from thy worldly goods .

4.Remember to put in Parallel or Series only Batteries of the same type, age, size, weight and state of charge
or suffer thou a Righteous Ream Job by thy Supervisor, and the miraculous Shrinking of thy Wages. 

5. Tarry thou Not amongst fools that mixeth different Types of Batteries in a Bank, for they are disbelievers but 
make question of them if their Airplane hath different size wings also.

6. Take care when thou takest the measures of high-voltage circuits, or thou shalt incinerate both thee and thy
test meter. Verily, thou hast but small value and can be easily replaced, but the loss of a fine test meter 
bringeth much woe and lamenting back at the shop.

7. Bypass thou not fuses, breakers, or safety devices, nor wire thy vessel if thou be color-blind for this can 
arouse any Survivors to Wrath, and thou shalt suffer severe beatings and Loud Doubts on thine Ancestry, 
Present Worth and Future Prospects. 

8. Covet not thy neighbors true RMS meter and Suffer thou learn well the common, neutral, negative, ground,
earth and bond. Amen, Amen I say unto thee, the Smoke pouring out your ears cannot be putteth back and 
thy Brain worketh not a toss without it.

9. Bedeck thyself not with jewelry or watches whilst working with Acid and Lead substances lest thou compete
with Quasimodo on the ugly scale and thy Wife will have no further use for thee except for thy Wages.

10. Give lasting peace, even amongst the Unbelievers, by letting them wire up their own Electric Toilet.


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## 96088 (Aug 22, 2005)

[/quote] The Leisure batteries you install should have a little pipe supplied, which comes out the side of the battery... USE IT!? [/quote]

Be assured...I Will!

I will also not rush in to this project without a full understanding of all the issues. I will also treat myself to a quality charger so that I can keep them fully charged up on a regular basis.

Thanks to everybody for their help and comments so far.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Pete

A battery box is worth considering

>>Battery Switches & Boxes<<

Jim


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Hi Oldskool
Afraid I'm with cowley here, I would think it is a much better idea to hang these additional batteries off the chassis for a variety of reasons.
Firstly the safety issues associated with having acid around inside the vehicle in the unfortunate event of an accident does not bear thinking about.
The risk of fire or explosion is always present, if the breather pipe gets blocked or dislodged, and I have seen a battery fire on a submarine, defo not a pretty sight and one you never want to see again.
Secondly, given that you take care of the safety issues there is a practical consideration. Try putting a cardboard box in your proposed battery box location and go away. See how many times you tread on it or worse still trip over it, why waste valuable internal space when you don't need to.

I would definitely research mounting the batteries outside and under the MH.

Good luck

Keith


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## 88966 (May 11, 2005)

Hi Oldskool,

There have been a lot of good suggestions here and the 'ten Commandments' that you found have a lot of good points in them (if you can understand them).

You are starting to exhibit doubts, even about wire. If you aren't confident that you know what you are doing - don't.

The wire to interconnect the batteries should be about the size of starter wire, so you may be able to pick it up at a scrapyard. The terminals on the end that connect to the battery should be properly soldered or clamp bolted (I would still solder the ends first).

Ideally any batteries connected in parallel should be of the same size, type and age.


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## 88934 (May 10, 2005)

kands said:


> if the breather pipe gets blocked or dislodged


Heh Heh.. I am paranoid about this 

I check mine daily (when in van), and it is an item which is both on my "depart" check list, and my "arrive" checklist?

When at home, it is an item on my weekly checklist too?

Yeah I know, I am sad !


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## 96088 (Aug 22, 2005)

BillD said:


> Hi Oldskool,
> You are starting to exhibit doubts, even about wire. If you aren't confident that you know what you are doing - don't.
> Ideally any batteries connected in parallel should be of the same size, type and age.


Hi Bill

They are not strictly doubts although I can see where you are coming from.

They are making sure that I 'fully' understand 'all' the issues that I have to take into consideration. I felt that I understood the wiring part of the exercise and as it turns out I did.

However the good people including yourself on here have rightly encouraged me to re-consider whether my understanding was correct, something that I believe I sensibly did.

If that makes sense


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## 88966 (May 11, 2005)

Hi Oldskool,

I am always happy to try and help and it is certainly better to be sure than sorry.


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## 88790 (May 9, 2005)

Hello Oldskool,

A couple of points, the battery gassing although important can be over emphasized and cause exaggerated concern, most MH inbuilt chargers, charge at a rate which is beneath hat at which batteries gas, I believe!

I don't remember also seeing any mention of a fuse in the second battery's +ve lead, I think this is essential.

Charging is a whole new can of worms, but my system, and I use two 85ah. in parallel is to use the MH charger usually but every now and then use a CTEK 3600 stage charger. This charger will charge the batteries to almost full charge and help prevent the aging of of the battery through sulphation because of the inadequate charging of the MH charger. It is important though to make sure that all the 12v system in the MH is turned off. The CTEK charges at a higher voltage and it may be that it would damage some of the on board electrical circuitry. I find the CTEK invaluable and give the cab battery a charge from it as and also our other cars.

I am sure someone will come in and shoot me down in flames, but this system works well for me.

John 8)


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## 88966 (May 11, 2005)

Hi Jabber,

I don't want to shoot you down in flames but I am afraid I must. - the generation of hydrogen gas by a battery when charging must NOT be underestimated and appropriate care must be taken. Some gas will be generated even at normal charging rates. If you doubt me leave your 'van battery on a normal charge with a cell cap off and put a lighted match over it - no for God's sake don't do it !!!

As far as a fuse between the batteries is concerned there is really no point as the cable will probably be capable of carrying several hundred amps.

I have no problem with your bit about charging, there are many ways of skinning this particular cat.


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## 96088 (Aug 22, 2005)

Hi Folks

This has been quite an experience...To have so many quality views/experience/technical issues/safety aspects, etc etc fed back to me in such a short time has been awesome.

I will take a few days to review all the info and make a decision as to the way I want to progress this project

Thank you all for helping me to a better understanding...

If sometime in December you hear a large explosion from the East Glos region, then you will know I got it wrong.

As I understand it...

Get it right and it ain't rocket science
Get it wrong and it could quite possibly be rocket science


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## tonyt (May 25, 2005)

This is why this site is great.
I personally don't have a battery issue but I've followed this thread with much interest and as Oldskool says, so much knowledge and assistance in such a short time is brilliant.
Let's hope the same happens when I need some guidance.


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## 88790 (May 9, 2005)

Hello Tonyt, I am sure the same will happen when you post - try it any time!

John 8)


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Hi Oldskool

Scotjimland posted on the thread below and may I suggest you read the article he has linked, it is really interesting especially for a new install, it gives some points worthy of consideration.
I hope this helps, but credit must go to Jim for the link.

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=9465

Keith


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## 90740 (May 1, 2005)

We've got two 85Ah gel batteries fitted to the van. They were fairly pricey but after two years after having toured most of Europe they are still performing well. Soon we plan to head off again. At the moment I'm fitting a solar panel to the two leisure battery circuit which will allow us to spend more time at preferred remote sites, we hope!
I've read that if we want a third battery we should buy the same manufacturer's battery and preferably it should be the same age. That isn't practical as that would mean buying three new batteries and dumping two expensive units.
Should we -
get a third new 85Ah gel battery, cheaper than the original two, and tie it in with the existing batteries and take the chance.
or
get a larger Ah battery and keep it out of the charging circuit. Charge the battery from a seperate charger, namely 220 v when on site or from a 12v charger when offsite. 
or 
not bother with either of the above.

J


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## peter (May 10, 2005)

Hi Oldskool, I have been thinking along the same lines as you, I am considering fitting two new 85AH Gel batteries, separate from the main leisure battery.
The two new Batteries will be my main source of 12v, they will be charged by a 3 stage charger when we are on hookup. 
At a later stage they will be connected to extra Batteries and charged via Solar panels when the funds allow this.
The thinking behind this is up where I live in Scotland there are a lot of CLs and wild camping spots, which we shall stay at for four or five days then head for a hook up at a campsite so we can shower do washing etc. My 12v needs are not that great at the mo just lighting, but in future a fridge and 12v Tv will be connected up (her indoors demands this). Between the Batteries and fuse panel will be a 20amp circuit breaker.
My motorhome is a home conversion VW mobile Bank of Scotland van, the person who converted it used speaker wires on most of the electrics, so this is why a rewire is needed.
Gassing is not such a problem with Gel batteries but the compartmen which is under the dinette seat will be ventilated to the outside.
Pete


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## 96088 (Aug 22, 2005)

kands said:


> Hi Oldskool
> Scotjimland posted on the thread below and may I suggest you read the article he has linked, it is really interesting especially for a new install, it gives some points worthy of consideration.
> I hope this helps, but credit must go to Jim for the link.
> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=9465
> Keith


Thanks for that, I've put the link in my 'favourites' for perusal maybe tomorrow.

Good work Jim :thumbright:

I'm having a day off batteries today as my head hurts 

Pete


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## 88966 (May 11, 2005)

Hi Pete,

Just a small query - you mention connecting a frig. to 12v. I don't know what type of frig. you have in mind but a conventional 3 way is unsuitable for running off a battery as it's current usage is in the order of 10 amps.

A personal view - I wouldn't waste my money on gel. batteries for a MH. I don't believe they last any longer than ordinary lead acid but they cost about double - there may be a place for them in boats and jetskis.


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## Riggy (May 9, 2005)

here is a link for a general overview (nothing to heavy to take in )

http://www.lcsautosat.co.uk/Docs/fa...WO OR MORE BATTERIES TO GIVE ME MORE CAPACITY

this might help also

http://www.sailgb.com/sshop/tech_info.asp?ID=223

cheers

Riggy


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## peter (May 10, 2005)

Hi Bill, yes your right, the fridge is out, I wasn't thinking. Lead Acid batteries worry me, what with leakage and the serious amounts of gas they give off.
Pete


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## 92046 (May 1, 2005)

*Gell Batteries*

Hi to all

As for gell batteries, i have 1 x 85 ah battery, from 1994, this battery is kept charged with a solar panel, but twice a year i cycle it, by loading it with a 16 amp load and pulling 45 amp out of it, as measured with a amp hour meter in line, then charged with a charger at 14.4 volt for 1 hour, then 13.8 volts until the charge current is below 15 ma, then re-connected to a solar panel a few days later,
I also have a pair 2 x 85 ah batteries, from 1999 that have the same treatment,
These batteries are Sonnenschein dryfit A 500, you can look up the cost of these batteries youself, BIG £$£$£$, i think the saying is ""You Pays Your Money ..............." I would not fit any other battery to MY MH, of course this is only my opinion !!!
But remember, your battery must be "worked" to stay in good condition, we all read the posts about the charging of batteries, but the charging of batteries is only a small part of the care and maintenance of batteries, there are a few of us, who only run a few lights off the batteries, and never run the batteries below 80% charge, this will also shorten the life of batteries.

As i say this is only my opinion ! after testing batteries from 10 suppliers, and finding 5 that did not even meet the makers spec, with the final test a battery was put on the sea bed for 24 hours at a depth of 4 metres, then put on a low load duration test standing on it's side until total failure, (or totaly flat with the load kept on for a further 7 days) you will now find these batteries in deep sea navigation buoys, remote navigation equipment in this country, USoA, Canada, just to name a few user's.

Just a little bit of usless information for you!!!!!!!!!!

Have a nice day Colin R..........


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## 88966 (May 11, 2005)

Hi Cowly,

I am sure everything you say is absolutely right. Certainly you make a very good point about the usage/discharge of the batteries being as important as the charging - if both are done properly.

I can also tell you many true stories of lead acids that have lasted 10 years.

My point was, perhaps not well expressed, that in a MH situation I believe that a lead acid will give (on average) as good a service as a gel and that is good enough for me. At double or more the price of gels if I missout occasionally I am still in pocket. Incidentally I use what are known as Leisure/Marine batteries - they I do believe are worth the small extra. 

I try not to tell people what they should or should not do or buy, unless they are suggesting something dangerous, but give them my opinion based on long experience to help them make a decision.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Colin 
Not useless information at all, these are very expensive batteries and in some applications would be the best if not the only choice. 
On the other hand I come from the school of thought that I can replace my 30 quit 85ah cheapie flooded lead acids 7 times for the price of one Sonnenschein dryfit A 500 85ah at £220 
As you said.. you pays your money ... :wink: 
One battery I recommend is the Elecsol carbon fibre monobloc which are a middle price range .. 
125ah is about £100 , comes with an unconditional 5 year warranty, can be deep cycled and used for starting duty. 
Often it's our wallets that dictate choice..... not what's best ..  

Jim


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