# max gross weight and payload



## 96405 (Sep 29, 2005)

hi guys
am i wright in thinking that the max weight minus the gross weight equals the pay load?


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## 88810 (May 9, 2005)

Sort of
GVW (gross vehicle weight) or MTPLM (maximum technically permissable laden mass) minus MIRO (mass in running order) equals payload.
MIRO is the weight of the converted vehicle including driver, fuel, gas bottle etc, but no personal effects.


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

jana......can you help me work this out, as I surely can't get the hang of these payloads.
On the plate of our m/h is the numbers 5500k, then under that 3850k, then 2200 (axle)and then 1820(axle). Why does this not add up to 3850k?

We filled up with water and then I filled up with fuel, plus all our regular travelling stuff on board and went to a weighbridge. We have a small unbraked trailer to carry cycles and odds and ends. We stayed in the vehicle (with the dog as well) and the weight was 3895k with the trailer attached but not on the weighbridge. Then we weighed the whole lot and it was 4375k.

I think this was OK but not completely sure and how much leeway do we have?
Help.........................


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## 88810 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Sugarplum.
5500 is GTW or gross train weight, ie the GVW / MTPLM (3850) plus weight of any trailer. 
So in theory, you could tow a trailer of up to 1650kg (braked) with a fully laden 3850kg motorhome. 
Your whole outfit at 4375 is obviously within the 5500 limit. But the m/h at 3895 is 45kg overweight (illegal) This 45 is probably about the noseweight of the trailer, so maybe with no trailer on you are legal. If I were you, I would transfer some more weight to the trailer as loads of spare capacity there before you get to the 750 limit for an unbraked trailer, and empty the water too !
The 2200 front and 1820 rear axle limits do not have to equate to 3850, and must not be exceeded individually either. 
On the bridge, it would have been useful to take each axle reading too, as well as total weight.


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

The 5500 is the Gross Train Weight - fully loaded weight of vehicle and any trailer.

The 3850 is Gross Vehicle Weight, the value the fully loaded motorhome alone must not exceed.

The 2200 and 1820 are the maximum axle weights (I suspect in the order back and front). They add up to more than the allowed GVW of 3850 to give some flexibility in loading front to back, but should not be individually exceeded.

If you wanted to consider it another way, the 3850 is the 'safe' working load for the vehicle brakes (allowing for an unbraked trailer at the allowed weight limit for such). The Axle loads are the 'safe' loads for each axle. Reaching the Gross Train Weight would need a braked trailer, since (AFAIK) the unbraked trailer limit is 750kg .

So, to be entirely sure you are legal, you would also have to weigh the front axle loading and the rear axle as well. Depending on the downforce of the trailer when you weighed the van alone, it looks like you are about on the limit for overall weight in the van, and might have an axle-loading issue if the distribution isn't correct.

Unless, of course, anyone interprets the figures differently.......


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## 91289 (May 1, 2005)

I'm gonna cheat here and reproduce a post which was so good an explanation I copied it in case I couldn't find it again. It refers to a question about German terms but as an explanation for all weight questions it's spot on - Thank you Gerhard 8)

_Hi PGD1, there is an official guideline for all these terms in Germany. That is:

1. "Leergewicht" (English: "Empty weight"): Includes only the van itsself, bolted on accessories, spare wheel (as delivered ex-factory) plus tools to change wheel, legally required accessories (that is warning triangle and first aid kit in Germany). Nothing else. Now the term "Leergewicht" should officially not be used anymore. It should have been replaced by:

2. "Masse in fahrbereitem Zustand" (English: "Mass in Running Order" MRO): This contains in case of a motorhome the "Leergewicht" plus: - Fuel tank filled to 90% - Water tank filled to 90% and water system (like boiler etc.) completely filled - Gas bottles/tanks filled to 90% - Hookup cable - 75 kg allowance for driver Other terms are:

3. "Technisch zulässige Gesamtmasse" (English: "Maximum technically permissible laden mass" MTPLM): This is the maximum allowed gross weight of the vehicle with all it's contents which may (on the Continent, at least) not be exceeded under any circumstances. According to EU standards this MTPLM also determines the validity of your driving license to drive the vehicle. In some countries (e.g. Austria, Switzerland) also the road tax systems are based on the MTPLM. The MTPLM should be mentioned in the car documents and also be plated under the bonnet.

4. "Nutzlast" (English: "Payload"): According to new standards simply the difference between MTPLM and MRO. New EU standards require the payload to cover at least: - 75 kg per legal passenger seat (driver is already part of MRO) - 10 kg luggage per driver and each passenger - 10 kg extra luggage per meter vehicle length.

Now there is still quite some confusion, even among motorhome manufacturers. Even today you can find advertisements where they say "Leergewicht" but mean MRO. And vice versa. Sometimes I cannot avoid the impression that people try to cheat here. E.g. by specifying the empty weight and calling it MRO, which makes the payload look larger. Or writing only in the fine print that they have used aluminium gas cylinders when determining the MRO. Or by "forgetting" some of the bolted accessories.

So the only way to be really sure about all these masses is to go to a weighbridge before signing the deal.

Best Regards,

Gerhard
____________Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. (Finagle's law)_


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

jana.....many thanx for such comprehensive reply....... I will print this off and keep it as v useful info. 
Surprised that the m/h is over weight, as I am careful not to carry a lot of useless stuff (must do a recheck) although i never normally carry a full tank of water, so I must check how many litres that is, and recalculate. Also transfer some more stuff into the trailer.(maybe go on a diet, even)

Cheers for being so helpful......


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

Many thanx also to RobinHood and TandD..................I've printed this off and now going to make a cup of T and digest the info (makes good bedtime reading!)

All good stuff..........


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## 88810 (May 9, 2005)

I am not an expert by any means, but I have just read up a bit on it. Glad I could help you.


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

I don't travel with full water either. On my tank, travelling at 1/3 full saves me 80kg.

One of the main issues is the quoted weights from manufacturers. Reading the small print most quote with a tolerance of 5%. Doesn't sound a lot until you realise that +5% of say 3000kg MIRO eats around 30% of your payload on a 3500kg van!


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

one of the reasons for buying a yank, i have nearly 2 tons of payload, thats at least 1000 bottles of french plonk :lol: 

Olley


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## Road_Runner_644 (May 9, 2005)

Quote Olley

"one of the reasons for buying a yank, i have nearly 2 tons of payload, thats at least 1000 bottles of french plonk"

Road_runner faints - gets up, and starts looking to change his Hymer with it's measly payload. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

Olley...............know what you're saying, but we are just now weighing up the pro's and con's of an RV and though you have this huge payload, doesn't the cost of fuel merit consideration in this?

We currently are getting about 20 to 25 mpg on diesel, (if we don't boot it) . I don't want to buy an RV to travel extensively and then not doing it because of the cost of fuel.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi sugarplum if cost of fuel is a consideration for you then forget RV's mine does 9.5mpg at a stready 55-60, a few months ago pulling a trailor with our micra on and in a hurry (i hit 80) it averaged 6.5 for the journey.

I believe kands said he gets 15mpg from his 6.5 diesel anybody who claims much over 10mpg for the petrol ones is IMHO deluded 

The ford tritons are 6.8l mines a GM 8.1 thats 3 times the size of my old transit based motorhome. which did around 25mpg but only weighed 3500kg my Gross weight is 9390Kg nearly 3 times the amount so getting a bit less than half the consumption for three times weight and engine size seems like a good deal to me, plus the sheer room and luxury.

A chap said to me europeans are for holidays americans are for living in, I agree with him except for me they are for holidays as well. I hope to be living in it in the not to distant future.

Olley


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

Hi Olley .... agree with all that......the space is what we need, especially in the lounge area. .......RV's can't be beaten for that and the separate bedroom is v appealing if you want somewhere quiet to go and read (don't like TV much).

There are no european m/h's at present that have a slide out in the lounge area, which is why we are looking ar RV's. Not going fulltiming till 2007, but doing all the research now as we are selling our house in the spring and that gives us time to buy the m/h we want ultimately. 
In fact Frankia are the only m/h's I know of that have a slide out at all, and that's at the back to create space in the bedroom area. Trouble is when we look a RV's, we think one slide out, then we think if you have one, why not 2 and then why not 3, where do you stop, ends up your travelling around in a bungalow on wheels so to speak!!!

Back to the fuel thingy, I suppose there's always gas, but as it is relatively new, we wonder what it's doing to the engine long term, what do you think about it??

While on about RV's what's your opinion on the best for quality? Winnebago's certainly look one of the best? There are so many....... What we've decided to do is just wait till we have the money and just go and buy what's out there that appeals at the time.


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

sugarplum said:


> Back to the fuel thingy, I suppose there's always gas, but as it is relatively new, we wonder what it's doing to the engine long term, what do you think about it??


LPG has been around for a LONG time. They have only good effects on an engine. Run cleaner than Petrol. Pass the emissions easier (no emissions). When you work it out. The equivalent MPG will not be much worse than your current M/H. The advantages of an RV you have already mentioned. Winnebago are very good. But it's horses for courses as in everything. You get what you pay for. JMHO. :wink:


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

Hi JSW..... thanx for the feed back on gas, it's always good to know. I suppose though you have to weigh up the cost of installation if the one you buy is not converted, although a lot of them now are (secondhand). 

We have been to West Country Homes in Wolverhampton, Travelworld in Telford, and Freedom in Tewkesbury. They just seem to tell you what they want you to hear!!! Good at sales, but not v hot at giving good info.

Do you know of any where not to far from Worcs that we could go and have mooch around and perhaps speak to someone who knows what there talking about?

Cheers................


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

sugarplum said:


> We have been to West Country Homes in Wolverhampton, Travelworld in Telford, and Freedom in Tewkesbury. They just seem to tell you what they want you to hear!!! Good at sales, but not v hot at giving good info.


 8O I have to agree. We bought our first RV from a dealer. Never, ever again. We have also had service and repairs from so-called professionals. Never, ever again. We now do ALL our own repairs. Midlands International near Coventry are pretty good. But to be honest? I would prefer to buy from the USA or from a private seller. JMVHO. :wink:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi sugarplum as JSW points out gas has been around a long time, i had mine converted 2 months ago and i have now covered 1,800 miles in it i would estimate that running on gas is the equivalent of 15mpg max on petrol, its still got to go back for final adjustments so may get slightly better.

Because of the problems I am having completely filling tanks, which according to JSW is common, you need 300litres of tank capacity to get a decent range. i only have 200
yesterday i put in 100litres cost £41.90 does make you smirk :lol:

quality, chap from ARVE club told me when we where looking that either spend over 100k new from a dealer (less if you go private) or buy a good secondhand one, IHO all the new ones under 100k where poor quality, look for things like nails, staples, glue ect. instead of screws and OSB board instead of ply.

I have not found anything on the winnie which i think is poor quality, except the electrical conversion done in this country, electrics are ok. but his wood and metal working skills need attention.

For me getting a newish one gave me the best chance of not working on it, i have a workshop full of tools and they can stay there. :lol:

olley


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

Hi olley

It's looking good for you, (the gas conversion) and in europe it is even cheaper, so it can only get better. 
Know what you mean about the quality thing, some we've looked at, the door handles etc don't look v strong. Can't go to 100k, though not too far away from it. As you say, don't want to be having things fixed all the time. Although most m/h people do look after them,just got to watch out for the DIY'r who hasn't done something right.

Hi JSW

Haven't ruled out going across the water for one, we went to Florida last year and had a v quick look around and was told it would cost about £3.000 to ship and then of course you have the conversion, but well worth looking at.


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Hi sugarplum
If you think you want an RV then I would suggest that you just start looking for the one you want. Don't worry unduly about fuel costs IMO the overall cost of ownership is what is really important and part of that is the satisfaction value.
We have had our Rockwood for about 6 weeks and every day I pass it on the drive and grin like a big kid, the grin gets bigger when I drive it I am reliably told :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Roughly guessing I think we are getting 15 - 18 MPG on our 6.5 turbo diesel and when we get on site and sit in it then it is worth every penny in extra fuel to have got there, compared to a euro MH.
I was impressed with the deal we got from the dealer who sold us our RV, he is in Kent, which is not close to me or you but I've attached a link to his website for you. 
http://castlemotors.org/index.htm
He is shipping new units soon I think but check with him and sit down when he tells you the price because you won't believe it, we will definitely be going back to him when the time comes for us to have a new one.
Good luck with your search and please keep us posted.....

Keith


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

Hi Kands
thanx for sharing your ideas for an Rv. We having been talking some more and am now convinced this is the route we are going to go, RV definitely.
As you rightly say, for the satisfaction of knowing you will have enough space and of course the payload, which did concern me, which started off this thread.

I just wish we as far down the line as you.......I would be grinning big time as well. I have to say I really like the outside look/colour of yours. so many of them seem to look very similar. I see you went for diesel, could I ask what was your reason for that? Don't mean to be too nosy, just interested in everyone's opinion....

Hope you have lots of happy hols in your Rockwood, can't wait now to get things moving. Got to tart up the house this winter and then sell up in the spring, so using this time to research everything.
So I will now look at the website you sent.
cheers.................


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi sugarplum just a few figures from our 1 month trip to france and italy this year, 
Ferry £118
Sites 3 main 2 stopovers £894
Tolls £165
Car hire 2 weeks france and italy £634
Petrol about 2500 miles £891

Comes to £2545 if you then add in food, vino, shopping, trips ect must be over £5000 if we had been in our old van i would have saved about £500 on fuel IMO not worth worrying about in the overall cost.

Next year we will tow our micra and with the LPG conversion to RV will save about £1000 on this years price. more money for vino, or go for longer perhaps both :lol: 

Olley


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Hi sugarplum.
You're not being nosey, that's what these forums are for after all. If I didn't want to answer you then I am at liberty not to!!!
We went for diesel for two reasons....
1. Diesel motors generally get better mileage (MPG) than petrol engines, and have seriously more torque (pulling power) and usually achieve higher mileages before they wear out.
2. The Rockwood had a diesel engine, and it was the best RV that we had seen within our budget, so we bought it :lol: :lol: :lol: 

As Ollie has said fuel cost is not the be all and end all of the equation, I personally would look down the diesel route first but this is only MY preference. I have never had a petrol RV so cannot comment (our Kon Tiki was a 2.0ltr petrol but that doesn't count I think, and anyway it was gutless).
I think Ollies sums show you the real story and with his LPG conversion the story will only improve for him, but the conversion needs to be factored into the purchase price coz it ain't cheap.... And you will need to do a lot of miles to recoup the outlay, so fine if you intend to travel far and often.
There are many things to consider when buying an RV and I'm sure we all miss something or don't get everything that we think we need, it is a lottery, but do as much homework as possible and ask as many questions as possible and you will narrow down the field intelligently. Go visit a load of dealers and look at their wares, lounge around in them for ages, test out the accommodation as much as possible, try to imagine what will happen at bed time (NO not that) and how easily it changes from a lounge to a bedroom etc.
Drive it..... Drive as many as you can so you will have a good picture of the differences in type, make and fuel type ( they all perform differently), then when you have all this info providing you haven't fallen in love with one that you have seen so far and been persuaded to buy, start seriously looking for the one you have identified during your research.
Sorry this is a bit long winded, but it is what we did and we feel it has paid off.

Good luck matey

Keith


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi sugarplug i second what keith has said, we started looking in january and bought in june, two private sellers had a plot each at the Stratford show, one had a 30' Winnebago brave the other a 34' Holiday Rambler Vacationer they where both very good value, low milage and in excellent condition, but the Brave was 4' shorter and 2 years newer.

my wife intended to drive the RV and was concerned about the extra length of the Rambler, if we bought again we would not worry about going bigger, but you don't know that at the time. The Rambler may still be for sale if you are interested, let me know and i will try to contact them.

Olley


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

HI kands...... thanx for the reply and sound advice. I've always had diesel before and as you say less maintenance and a longer life maybe. had a look on the link you gave me and the Mirada looked my cup of tea, though we are not yet in a position to buy, but if we were ............... :lol: :lol: 
I will keep this link handy and check from time to time till it is our turn :lol: 

Hi Olley..same answer for you, love to say we'd have a look with a view to buying, but we are not at that stage yet  But, all in good time hopefully :lol: Although I didn't realise that people sold privately at shows, thought it was just dealers, that's useful to know.

Just want to get on with it all now, we are working through a plan.

Cheers all for the help and advice, much appreciated.


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

kands said:


> I was impressed with the deal we got from the dealer who sold us our RV, he is in Kent, which is not close to me or you but I've attached a link to his website for you.
> 
> http://castlemotors.org/index.htm


 8O That's where I bought my 1988 Coachmen Classic. Read all about it on my Web Site. 8O


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Will do John :wink: :wink: :wink: 

Sugarplum I'll send you a PM mate.

Keith


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

Hi JSW.... just been reading your website... very interesting... and we are very envious!!! . are you planning to update it again? Would make good reading, especially as you now have a different "home". 

We enjoy reading about people who are full timing as that is our target for next year.

have saved all the info on this thread and will put it to good use as soon as we can.

Cheers


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