# Insomnia



## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I know a few folks on here (including myself) struggle with sleeping so I thought I would open a thread to see if we cant start some kind of self help discussions or at worst, at least sympathise/empathise with each other :smile2:

It does help to talk with people who have these issues and don't just infer that I should just 'Pull myself together'

I have had degrading sleep for over 10 years now to the point that I haven't been able to work now for 6 months (hence why I'm on MHF lots :smile2. I average around 3 hours per night...some nights zero, others maybe 4-5 hours (but rarely).

Over the years I have tried over the counter drugs; prescription drugs; habit forming dependency prescription drugs; hypnotherapy; acupuncture; cognitive behaviour therapy; hormones; relaxation techniques; breathing techniques; self awareness; drinking; not drinking; let alone all the 'sleep hygiene' techniques that you could possibly mention! :frown2:

The CBT course also diagnosed mild anxiety and depression :frown2:

Nothing has worked to date.









Not sleeping combined with anti depressants (the current medicine) makes me happy and chatty but if the slightest thing goes awry/wrong, I get extremely irritable and snappy. I am constantly knackered plus my memory is degrading badly. As such, having a duty of care, I cannot teach at the moment :frown2:

I am also constantly apologising to my lovely, long suffering wife to whom I do snap at







...and then hate myself for doing that.

I am now on the last throw of the dice medication wise. If this doesn't work then I am in line for referral to a mental health practitioner first, and then a sleep clinic (the nearest experts are in London so we may get a MH trip out of it :smile2.

I have read several books and oodles of on line stuff. I have also listened to many well meaning people who know nowt but insist that they do! It gets you down after a while...

My current activities include keeping a sleep log of my sleep (zero being no sleep - 10 being full sleep) so I can see if I can identify patterns. Also I have now taken to getting up early rather than just lying there and potentially waking up Mrs GMJ.

Anyway...that's me :smile2:

I am happy to kick experiences around and identify what I have done...and also happy to listen to interesting ideas (but lets move away from the TV off - hot milky drink - hot bath before bed type stuff as none of that works for me alongside getting up and sitting quietly for 15 minutes!)...

...but please can any negative nellies and trolls keep their comments to themselves?

ta

Graham :smile2:


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Over-active brain can be one cause, especially if you spend time at a computer before you go to bed.

I have pain killers for the chemotherapy effects, but also have mild sleeping tablets to get me off to sleep if I need them.

Not doing much physical work during the day means I am not as tired at night.

I slept better last night after taking a 30/500 Cocodamol tablet than I did with a sleeping tablet a couple of nights earlier. 

I try and avoid the tablets if at all possible, just take one if I look as though I won't get off to sleep at all, but I have been dozing all night sometimes, just waking and then back to light sleep again.

Deep sleep is what evades me, I am a very light sleeper.

Peter


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## shingi (Apr 18, 2008)

Hi Graham,

This is more a question rather than an answer, but do you ever partake in any strenuous activity which at the end of the day and prior to going to bed, you find you feel absolutely "knackered" as it's under those circumstances when I get the deepest and lasting sleep? Unless you have some other underlying condition that I don't know about, then I would leave all the pills and potions alone.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Graham

It sounds like a horrible condition to have and you both have my greatest sympathy, but having never been awake for more than an hour or two and only occasionally, I have nothing else to offer, and hope you can find some remedy.

Geoff


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Thanks all :smile2:

I'm a fit and active guy and regularly take good exercise (I have a cross trainer and small gym at home and keep in shape).

It is a slight fallacy to suggest that exercise can cure insomnia. You can run marathons and still not sleep.

Graham


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I, too, have struggled for years with the same problem. 


As you say, all the "lettuce sandwich, milky drink, bottle of scotch" suggestions are pointless to those of us that have tried every remedy under the sun.




I, too, am under my GP for the problem and have tried various pills etc. None of them work to keep me asleep. I have no problem, usually, falling asleep when I first go to bed.


I, too, cannot just lay in bed although this is recommended by a book, written by a psychiatrist. His theory is that you must not give up trying. Ha!
I am having a little success lately and here is what I have done.


I gave up all but one of the doctor's pills as they wear off at between 2am and 4am.
Once awake, now, I just accept it. I do not rant and rave at myself. I just say "hey ho - I think I will get up and read for a while" in a positive way. I then take one 20mg diazepam for the anxiety that I am going to feel when I go back to bed in about half an hour. This is well know to insomniacs and is the hardest to overcome. That dread of lying awake is overwhelming and all consuming.
At the moment this "acceptance" and management of the inevitable is working. I only sleep then for a couple of hours more but it is enough to put my mind at rest over the damage the insomnia is dong to me. 
I also tell myself that I can nap during the day. This is considered another no no by the experts but the thought of catching up with sleep is very comforting indeed.


My long term goal is to train my body to get up, when I need the bathroom, read for a short while and go back to bed and fall asleep. Just leave out the tablet because I have trained my body to sleep after reading for a short while. Eventually, who knows, I may be able to leave out the reading! 


I also have to manage my day to make sure life is not too stressful. Do things I enjoy doing. I have found joining a singing group very helpful 


I could not bear to go to a sleep clinic! The thought of lying awake all night in a strange place fills me with dread.


My insomnia is also affecting my motorhoming as I do not always relish being awake in a tin box in the cold and dark!


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## talogon (Aug 12, 2009)

Hi Graham,
I am not an insomniac but have never been good sleeper. My wife is sleeping within seconds of putting her book down at night, and I find that really annoying.
I recently bought a Fitbit exercise tracker which I wear to bed at night and this tracks my sleep. It says how long I have slept and the amount of times I am awake and the times I am restless.
It doesn't help me sleep but I can now work out how badly I sleep which is a start. Some nights I feel that I have barely slept but when I check the fitbit I find I have had five and a half hours. (good for me) 
I now need to work on getting better sleep , easier said than done.
Brian


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Thanks both

Hi Pat







...I was hoping you would join in as I recall swapping experiences with you before.

For me the 'getting up during the night' strategy doesn't work as I end up sitting downstairs, trying to read, then going back to bed even more awake than before. My problem is that: when I awake, that tends to be it. This could be at midnight or at 3.00 am (the 3.00am thing is a new, encouraging development though). As said, views differ on this: some experts say to get up and others, the opposite!

I think the good news is that this idea can work for some and not for others. All the other sleep hygiene factors as well are proven to work with some and not with others.

*I would URGE anyone who has sleep disruption or is developing it, to take steps now to see if it can be improved before you go down the road myself (and Pat :frown2 are down.*

In terms of my sleep, if there was such a thing as a typical night it would be.

Light off at c.10.45
Sleep within 1 hour
Awake c.1.5 - 2 hours after that (i.e. 1 sleep cycle)
Awake for c.4-5 hours after that
Disturbed sleep for c1 - 1.5 hours after that
Wake up feeling crap!

Not that there is a typical night btw...any/all of the above are subject to change night by night. Latterly under my new drug I have experienced 2 nights where I appeared to put 2 sleep cycles together (approx. 3 - 3.5 hours) which was a real breakthrough....however that was a week ago and it hasn't happened since.

Recently I have taken to getting up early and starting the day early. This could be as early as 5.00am, after lying on bed for hours not sleeping. Its a new strategy aimed at improving the next nights sleep, hopefully.

Talagon - I log my sleep using my own index as described in my first post and the last 9 nights (i.e.. September) since I have been on my new drugs fully have been 2,5,5,3,1,3,3,2,5 [where 0 is zero sleep and 10 is nirvana!). The numbers don't relate to the number of hours sleep but rather the 'feel' of the nights sleep (and how rubbish I feel in the morning!). Its a good idea to do this as long as

1) The results don't worry you
2) You do something with the results

Pat - I am not looking forward to the sleep clinic if/when I eventually get there and I cannot see how lying there wired up to machines in a strange place can possibly be a recipe for a good night! We'll have to see on that one.

I dont sleep any better in the MH but am more relaxed generally whilst we are away, so I think that certainly needs to be part of my remedy :smile2:

Thanks for the input folks - I think its good to talk

Graham :smile2:


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## tugboat (Sep 14, 2013)

I really sympathise with anyone who suffers with insomnia, it must be miserable.

Graham, do you know if you snore when you do sleep? If so, it might be worth getting yourself checked for sleep apnoea. You wear a clip on your finger over one night, and your blood oxygen levels are downloaded to a pooter. 

I've had a longterm problem with it and wear a mask at night that gently blows air into my nose. If anyone suggests I'm fat, I just tell 'em i've been over-inflated!

Seriously though, the pump made a big difference, though as the years pass I'm sleeping worse and worse.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

tugboat said:


> I really sympathise with anyone who suffers with insomnia, it must be miserable.
> 
> Graham, do you know if you snore when you do sleep? If so, it might be worth getting yourself checked for sleep apnoea. You wear a clip on your finger over one night, and your blood oxygen levels are downloaded to a pooter.
> 
> ...


Nice one...but alas no. I sleep on my side so don't have an issue with this.

The good news is that I have been off the beer and it hasn't had any effect yet. I'll carry on with not drinking until the end of the month and then - just for the purposes of science you understand - get back on the ale in October...just to see if it has any difference









btw...If anyone ever said I had a fat arse I used to reply that when you have a big nail you need a big hammer! :wink2:

Graham :smile2:


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Hi pal :grin2:
I am sorry to hear your condition hasn´t improved, I didn´t realise you were still off work.
If you remember, when you started the previous thread about not sleeping I told you that´s been me for about 30 years.
As I get older it seems to have improved, but maybe thats just because I am used to it :serious:
I do find if I have a problem, (such as this week connecting the laptop to the TV,) I am awake trying to figure it out.
I sussed it at 4am :laugh:.
I still have times when my whole body feel agitated and I have to get up and do something, usually make a cup of tea, have a read, (look to see if any jokers have put photo´s of me on the forum >)
Sometimes I can lay awake for ages quite relaxed thinking nice thoughts such as past holiday, how energetic we used to be, our animals (dead ones as well as present)
Sometimes I think of people like you, my pardner, Barry, Kev, Terry 1, Terry 2, cabby and a few more who make I larf, then I definitely have to get up because I get the giggles and don´t want to wake Hans, just think of it,"what are you giggling about" "Oh just been thinking of my men" >
None of this is going to help you Graham, I wish I could give you and all the others the cure, we´re all in the same boat (blimey what a thought).

Jan


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Thanks Jan :smile2:

Its good just to kick stuff about and get it off our chest if nothing else. Plus sharing what we all do might, just might, help someone...if not us but someone reading this thread.

I have a genuine fear now that my teaching days may be over. I was planning on knocking it on the head next summer anyway as we are planning to retire to mid Wales but it could well be earlier.

Graham :serious:


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## havingfun (Oct 31, 2007)

hi graham,

know what you are talking about,i,ve suffered since i was a child, remember dad going mad,catching me again reading under the bedclothes with a torch, and my eldest son suffers as well, when we stay at theirs we watch him on the settee, watching trains, bernard cant understand it, but i realalise it,s his reading, i get up,do a brew and read for a couple of hours, sometimes it,s not bad, and other times i get fedup watching the clock, i,ve had all sorts of jobs, shiftwork, nightclubs, normal hours,makes no difference, 1 hour after falling asleep, wideawake and looking at the clock, BUT i always try a get 1 hours sleep midafternoon, shoes off bra open, belt undone, and flat on the bed, i can sleep as deep as you can for 1 hour, and wake up feeling like i,ve had a nights sleep, dont doze in the chair has to be in the dark and flat.

i feel as i,ve got older its got better, or maybe it,s because i,m not working, and looking at the clock and thinking,i,ve got 80 mins before i have to get up, and i,ve only had 2 hours sleep.

cant give any help on what to do,never took tablets,except once when i was a lot younger,1 week was enough,felt that bad, but i ,ve found not being upset over it seemed to help, tried yoga, lavender oil, chalamine tea, warm baths, whatever at the time made me feel better with myself.

hope you can get some answers at the sleep clinic, best of luck,

mags


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Thanks for sharing Mags :smile2:

I cant do the afternoon nap thing as if I sleep even for 5 mins, I don't then sleep at night :frown2:

Its great that you have a strategy to help you get some sleep. Specialists say that its OK to sleep in the afternoon as long as its before 3.00pm and no longer than 30 mins...shows what they know :wink2:

Last night was interesting as I awoke at 1.00am but then did manage to get some more sleep prior to waking up at c.5.00am...and getting up early (hence my being on here at 7.00am). 

Hopefully by sharing our experiences on here it will help someone who reads it...and may even help us :smile2:

Graham :smile2:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Sorry to hear all this Graham and others. My issue isn't going to sleep, I'm gone in seconds, but I wake up at the slightest sound or perceived movement from Liz who also can't get off or stay asleep, so we keep each other awake, single beds has been mentioned a couple of times, but neither of us want that, but may have to for the sake of sanity.

Once I wake I feel the urge to visit the loo which is overpowering if I don't, is it in my head or my bladder? then my mind decides it want to wander around for hours, mulling over problems etc, going off at tangents, I can't lie in the same position for long so end up tossing and turning till I do drop off, 5-6am is my rescue, I can get up then, which is good for me, I've come down from 3-4am get ups.

Last time we were away in the van, I had a problem with my itchy skin, and Liz try a antihistamine, I used to take one of these every night but I was always drowsy so stopped them, but still have them in the drug box, so I took 2 as I was in a very bad way that night, Gonk, gone, spark out almost all night, and most of the next day too in bouts of long naps, next night back to normal, a few days ago I tried just taking one, I did sleep better again, but not quite as dopey next day but did still need a nap, then back to normal again.

The Antihistamine is Atarax 25mg


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Glad you had a better night Graham  I wonder if talking about it helped? When I first approached my doctor he said they were finding that group sessions of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) were the most helpful. I duly tried them but you do not share your problems at them. They are just classes to teach you how to practice CBT. I found them a little helpful and they set me off down a certain path. It is their opinion that you should not teach your body to lie awake in bed and I agree with them on that one  From there, I investigated more of the alternative therapies. Hypnotherapy was one. The Hypnotherapist I went to was also some sort of counsellor and she identified, in our preliminary chats, some issues left over from childhood and some current issues that might be affecting my sleep. One of these is trying to be too "good", setting impossibly high standards, and so worrying about things. Another was the fact that Chris has had three 999 calls in the middle of the night and that I was still on high alert because of them. This causes chemicals to be released which take a long while to leave the body.
I did not continue with the hypnotherapy as it was not what I expected it to be i.e. a tool to send me to sleep when I awoke. I did, however, benefit from talking things through with the therapist (private). I also got a better night's sleep each time I visited her, and the doctor, and off loaded my frustration on to them. My doctor told me that referral to a psychiatrist costs about £800 per hour!
What I am trying to say is that we get so tired, wound up and frustrated that we need a vent of some sort. I rarely off load to my family because I can see them glaze over the minute I mention "sleep" 
On the subject of family I am sure that some of it is hereditary. My mother was a poor sleeper and my daughter reports that she has to have black out blinds, ear plugs and is struggling to share a bed with her new husband due to them both moving during the night. (She has slept, mostly, alone for 30 odd years). They are considering the zip and link type of double bed.


A book on insomnia, written by Dr Tim Cantopher, a psychiatrist, called "Beating Insomnia" is very good and some might find helpful. I think that he is a fellow sufferer. It gave me some useful paths to follow, one of which, Mindfulness, I am still pursuing.


Pat


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

GMJ said:


> Thanks for sharing Mags :smile2:
> 
> I cant do the afternoon nap thing as if I sleep even for 5 mins, I don't then sleep at night :frown2:
> 
> ...


Was chatting to Liz while typing my earlier post, Glad you got a bit of kip G


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

patp said:


> Glad you had a better night Graham  I wonder if talking about it helped? When I first approached my doctor he said they were finding that group sessions of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) were the most helpful. I duly tried them but you do not share your problems at them. They are just classes to teach you how to practice CBT. I found them a little helpful and they set me off down a certain path. It is their opinion that you should not teach your body to lie awake in bed and I agree with them on that one  From there, I investigated more of the alternative therapies. Hypnotherapy was one. The Hypnotherapist I went to was also some sort of counsellor and she identified, in our preliminary chats, some issues left over from childhood and some current issues that might be affecting my sleep. One of these is trying to be too "good", setting impossibly high standards, and so worrying about things. Another was the fact that Chris has had three 999 calls in the middle of the night and that I was still on high alert because of them. This causes chemicals to be released which take a long while to leave the body.
> I did not continue with the hypnotherapy as it was not what I expected it to be i.e. a tool to send me to sleep when I awoke. I did, however, benefit from talking things through with the therapist (private). I also got a better night's sleep each time I visited her, and the doctor, and off loaded my frustration on to them. My doctor told me that referral to a psychiatrist costs about £800 per hour!
> What I am trying to say is that we get so tired, wound up and frustrated that we need a vent of some sort. I rarely off load to my family because I can see them glaze over the minute I mention "sleep"
> On the subject of family I am sure that some of it is hereditary. My mother was a poor sleeper and my daughter reports that she has to have black out blinds, ear plugs and is struggling to share a bed with her new husband due to them both moving during the night. (She has slept, mostly, alone for 30 odd years). They are considering the zip and link type of double bed.
> ...


Some interesting revelations in there for me Pat, thanks


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Hi folks and thanks :smile2:

Last night was a 4 on my self scaling (where 0 is zero sleep and 10 just pure fantasy!), so slightly better than my average 3! Still felt like sh!t this morning though :frown2:

I tried CBT and share your sentiments Pat. All I came away with was a feeling that everything anyone said was right...even if you disagreed with the lady running the course , both of us were right! Plus I also came away with a diagnosis of mild anxiety and depression! Bonus!!

Hypnotherapy didn't work for me either as the practitioner couldn't put me under. Go figure :smile2:

I too practice mindfulness alongside relaxation and breathing techniques. They work to help relax if I am lying there and getting angry in my head about 'stuff' (not necessarily sleep...I am well past having feelings on that now, which is good).

Kev - My Sarah talks abut the option of single beds and even separate bedrooms but, like you, that will never happen. She doesn't keep me awake anyway and with a memory foam mattress you simply cannot feel if your partner tosses and turns anyway. I couldn't mention it to her but because of her MS she has to get up on average twice a night to use the loo but because she is unsteady on her feet at the best of times, has fallen before when getting out of bed. We have her Zimmer frame next to the bed so she can lean on it when getting up however I am always awake when she gets up...just in case. I know this has added to my problem but I cannot do anything about it.

Graham :serious:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

GMJ said:


> Kev - My Sarah talks abut the option of single beds and even separate bedrooms but, like you, that will never happen. She doesn't keep me awake anyway and with a memory foam mattress you simply cannot feel if your partner tosses and turns anyway. I couldn't mention it to her but because of her MS she has to get up on average twice a night to use the loo but because she is unsteady on her feet at the best of times, has fallen before when getting out of bed. We have her Zimmer frame next to the bed so she can lean on it when getting up however I am always awake when she gets up...just in case. I know this has added to my problem but I cannot do anything about it.
> 
> Graham :serious:


We have a full memory foam mattress too, but we can feel eachother move though, although nothing like an ordinary mattress.

My other problem is functionality during the day, oddly my driving seems to be fine, (no one has died yet) but I lack any sort of concentration otherwise, if I read an instruction book etc, it just doesn't go in, but I've been like that since a child, but it's only got worse over the last 20 or so years, I can watch a instructional video, and grasp most of it, and watch again if I miss something, but reading again just makes it worse, I have a really quick temper, which I find very frustrating, as does Liz, but a terrible memory, so I forget quickly and move on, doesn't help though as she doesn't.

I'd love to find something which will knock me out for 6-8 hours every night, and not leave me like a bloody Zombie the next day, Liz has amitriptyline, but we can't take it.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

That sounds familiar Kev.

My memory is progressively getting worse too. I had amitriptyline (I don't know how to spell it) too in an attempt to cure the insomnia. I started on 10mg and over the years got up to 75mg as it was just not working on me anymore. Its at that point that I started to do so many other things because when you get to 100mg you are into personality suppression territory (It is administered to mentally ill folks at 100mg and over!).

Naysayers will suggest that we cant drive but I too am at my most alert and comfortable when doing so (especially if we are going away in the MH :wink2

Graham :smile2:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

GMJ said:


> That sounds familiar Kev.
> 
> My memory is progressively getting worse too. I had amitriptyline (I don't know how to spell it) too in an attempt to cure the insomnia. I started on 10mg and over the years got up to 75mg as it was just not working on me anymore. Its at that point that I started to do so many other things because when you get to 100mg you are into personality suppression territory (It is administered to mentally ill folks at 100mg and over!).
> 
> ...


Ah, that'll be why Liz has it then, not quite the full head the ball yet though, but she's getting there  (yes she will read this, but she thinks we're all nuts anyway) I think for a few of us driving is almost a fully automatic activity, so the brain is active for things which are wrong etc, it's not having to work overtime just to stay in the right lane, or it may just be the part for driving is never going to be affected by drugs once it's been shifted to a higher level.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

All the drugs I have tried have worn off by 3 or 4 in the morning  They have also left me with side effects for the rest of the day and, in some cases, even longer. The worst of these is a dry mouth and I have traumatised the inside of my mouth and tongue because of them. This has taken ages to heal. Having the dry mouth reminds you all the time of why you are on the drugs and you go into a spiral of worry over sleep.


This is a major factor, in my case, of my insomnia - the worry that comes with it. Will x cause me to have a sleepless night? If I go out after such and such a time will I be too stimulated to sleep that night? If I watch a certain programme on tv will I wake up thinking about it? Do certain food items affect the quality of sleep? What effect does caffeine or alcohol have? The list is endless.


Another helpful technique, taught by CBT practitioners, is to write down thought when you awaken during the night. I, initially, thought that this was ridiculous. I did, in desperation, try it in the end and I have to say I found it helpful!


I have found that mindfulness can help too. A book recommended, by the author of Beating Insomnia, is called "Mindfulness a practical guide to finding peace in a frantic world" by Mark Williams and Danny Penman. I found it very readable and, crucially for me, it comes with a free guided meditation cd. I use the cd almost every day for about ten minutes.


Also of help has been a Wellbeing Choir that I have joined. I had my best night's sleep in ages after we put on a concert for charity. Singing is considered very good for our well being. Could be something to do with the breathing required?
Shall we all start a virtual choir?


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

patp said:


> Shall we all start a virtual choir?


OK..I'll start...

"There were 4 and 20 virgins down from Inverness...."

Your turn >

Graham :smile2:


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I am fortunate that I have moved on from the worry about not sleeping thing. Acceptance is a major part of getting better, apparently!

It hasn't worked for me though ...yet!

I too have side effects from drugs but fortunately not as bad as yours sound (poor you :frown2. I wont go into mine as you might be preparing Sunday dinner and I wouldn't want to put you off !

Graham


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## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

Hey guys... my heart goes out to you!! If I have to tell you how I sleep, you'd hate me forever! I do occasionally have a "nuit blanche" and I get up in the morning thinking I'm going to feel like a zombie, but not so, I'm just overslept. I just have a cup of coffee, or a whisky and hot milk, and go back to sleep, or switch the telly on for half an hour till my eyes droop. I can also hypnotise myself to relax enough to fall asleep again. (Taught by an Indian Swami many years ago.)

That said I have had a taste of it. 27 years ago I was recovering from cancer and I had to take megadoses of progesterone (hormone) to discourage the cancer from recurring (there are better drugs now). The dose was reduced over a 7 year period but there came a time when I went for 3 days without sleeping. What an awful feelin!!! Doc prescribed sleeping tabs which I took for 2 and half years and when I finished with the progesterone eventually, I just stopped the sleepers too, cold turkey. Doc nearly had a heart attack, but I went back to sleeping properly immediately.

Well if you're still reading this ... and my ears aren't burning yet! A couple of probably useless thoughts, but hey Archimedes was just sitting in the bath... not him?? My science knowledge wouldn't fill the back of a stamp!

Re; sleep apnoeia - my sister used to snore to wake the dead and my brother-in-law used to lie awake all night waiting for her to stop breathing. So she went and had splints put in the back of her throat (somewhere) on NHS. Not very pleasant she said, but it worked.

A thought - any association with ADHD???? Many of our generation have ADD or ADHD because it hadn't been invented then but sometimes when the kids/grandkids are diagnosed you can see similar symptoms in the older generation.

Sleepwalking and similar afflictions. My son used to sleepwalk as a kid - neurologist compared it to the "switch" that puts the body into the "off position" doesn't work properly. Is there are similar switch for the "go to sleep" button.

Have you see a neurologist? Sadly, in my (ever so ignorant) opinion, I don't think you easily get to see specialists in UK. It sounds to me (not that I know anything) it is a physical/chemical/structural problem as you have addressed all the emotional/psychological/environmental ones. If it was me, I'd be delighted to get down to the sleep clinic sharp shoot where the store of knowledge must be greater than anywhere else in the NHS.

When I got chronic inner ear dizziness, I went to a string of specialists in the various relevant disciplines, and in the end by a process of elimination, I discovered that a shortage of calcium was causing the problem. Now a regular dose and I hardly ever suffer. If I do, I take Serc 16 for a couple of weeks and it's soon markedly reduced and some day gone.

So GMJ and PatP, keep on fishing, asking,weighing it all up and one day, the bath water may overflow when you sit in it. God Willing. May the force be with you.


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## tugboat (Sep 14, 2013)

Graham, according to Mags, take off your shoes, undo your bra, lie flat and you'll be laughing. I will be, too, I have to say!>


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

...maybe if I lie down and think of Mags undoing her bra that will help.....









The trouble is when I hear the name Mags I think of Thatcher...which certainly doesn't help









Graham :smile2:


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## ardgour (Mar 22, 2008)

I spent my last couple of years of paid employment working as a consultant nurse/ hypnotherapist specialising in phobias, anxiety and stress disorders seeing patients referred by GPs and a consultant psychiatrist. As you can imagine many of them also had difficulty sleeping. A couple of you mention that you have tried hypnosis and found it did not work for you but I am slightly concerned about your experience with it. 
Firstly to deal with Graham's experience of a hypnotherapist who couldn't put him 'under'. Sounds like someone to avoid (the therapist not Graham!) It is a common misunderstanding that you are 'put under' in hypnosis but any properly trained person will tell you that actually all the therapist does is help you to take yourself into a light hypnotic trance, which can then be deepened by the therapist working with you but you are in control at all times. Hypnosis is not mind control - if you don't like what the therapist is suggesting your mind will reject it and that is why many people find they do not benefit from it, the suggestions made to you whilst you are in a hypnotic state have to be very specific to you so that your unconscious mind will accept them. The generic tapes and CD's that you can buy will work for some people but can't possibly work for everyone because they are too general. 
Pat's experience sounds like someone who is primarily working as a counsellor with a bit of hypnotherapy added on. Personally I preferred to use the 'line in the sand' approach - none of us can change things that have happened in the past and if they were traumatic then we certainly don't need to relive them. They are part of who we are, but we can draw a line in the sand and move forward to create the future as we want it without letting the past control us. Sounds simplistic but it is very powerful and is the method I used when working with people who were trapped by experiences in their past.
We all drop into hypnotic states quite naturally several times a day without really realising it - you know the times you have driven somewhere but don't remember passing a certain landmark? That is because you were in a hypnotic state - perfectly safe to drive but your conscious mind was thinking of something else while your unconscious mind got on with the routine task of driving. The key to getting benefit from hypnotherapy is to find a therapist that you feel completely comfortable with and trust implicitly. If you are not 100% comfortable with them and your surroundings then you will not enter that relaxed state that leads to hypnotic trance. Even when completely comfortable some people are much more resistant to the process anyway but that is where the therapists skill and training come in. My greatest test when I was practicing was to hypnotise my 16 year old son who thought any kind of 'alternative' therapy was voodoo but he was desperate to improve his golf swing. I eventually got him into a light trance delivered the suggestions about his golf swing and off he went. It worked really well but he said never again because it scared him silly that his mother had altered his mind.:grin2:
Because the whole process is about entering a deeply relaxed state it is a short step from there to teaching you how you can do this by yourself whenever you need to. It shouldn't be a long process, I used to work on 3 appointments over about a month with perhaps a follow up a month later.
Sadly the profession of hypnotherapy is not regulated and there is no national standard for training so literally anyone could advertise their services. This means that there are all sorts of different people out there, most with the best of intentions, but finding the right person for you is a bit of a lottery. I have been out of that professional world for 4 years now so can't really help you find someone if you want to go down that route but hopefully the information above will help if you do. Before training in hypnotherapy I was a total sceptic and convinced that nobody could 'put me under', I only did the course because I needed a piece of paper to say that I was safe using guided imagery with children. After my first lesson I was completely blown away by the potential of the treatment and went on to use it professionally with a lot of success.
Now I spend my life growing trees and dreaming of time away in the van.:smile2::smile2:


Chris


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Viv - the hormone aspect is a whole other ball game. I have refrained from going there because the thread was started by Graham! Any post menopausal women might like to investigate the hormonal aspects of anxiety related conditions. There is strong evidence that HRT and additional testosterone (not available on the NHS) are very helpful indeed.

Chris - that is very interesting. I had about 3 or 4 sessions with my hypnotherapist. I experienced what you suggest, in that she just asked me to relax and go with the flow. My memory is a bit hazy of exactly what she said but it seemed to have nothing to do with the problem I was seeking help for. She just seemed to talk about random things. I expected to her to give me self hypnosis techniques and that did not happen. I did not sleep better after the sessions. Her insights into why I was experiencing insomnia were, however, quite helpful. Perhaps her talents lay in that direction?


My GP had warned me about the industry being unregulated but could not refer me to anyone other than the, previously mentioned, too expensive, psychiatrist. He did ask me for feedback on the therapist I saw.


I understand the "line in the sand" might be helpful for some but I found that my stress levels affect my sleep. She explained that my body was full of chemicals (fight/flight hormones) and I could not, therefore, relax enough to sleep. She helped me to understand why my body was full of chemicals. I was putting myself under a lot of pressure to be "good" (striving for my parents approval when young) and to do things "properly" (again a childhood thing from my father). I have an over developed sense of responsibility and use the word "should" a lot about myself.
It has helped me to understand that I can let myself off the hook of trying to make everyone happy by being "good", doing things "properly" and using the word "should" all the time. I am learning to be kind to myself and choosing to do things I enjoy before, horror of horrors, I have done all the things I "should" have done.
Still a work in progress though 
The therapist also pointed out that I was beating myself up about not acting more quickly when Chris was taken ill (I "should" have checked on him sooner when I heard him groaning at the bottom of the stairs! - I thought he had cramp, but he had fallen from top to bottom causing a nasty head injury). Was he going to have another heart attack and "should" I be on alert to get him help even more quickly than I did the last time? You get the picture by now.


Unless those chemicals can be banished from the body then sleep is not going to happen.


How does hypnotherapy help in these circumstances?


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Pat

Every time I read your posts I just want to give you a big









Talk about hormones Pat - please do. Lets get anything on here that may help someone. I did the melatonin for 3 weeks desire not being old enough. I didn't help at all with the sleep but it did help with my sun tan which was a bonus :smile2:

Chris - the lady I went to had all the 'stiffcates and I was most happy to be there and in her company; she followed a relaxation routine which took me on a pleasant journey through the countryside and to the sea. I was hooked up to a monitor thingy via my thumb (from memory). I relaxed deeply as I can do this (I have LOADS of practice when not sleeping :smile2; she then 'brought me back' by counting down from 10 however I was perfectly wide awake all the time so didn't need the 10. She was shocked as her monitor told her I was 'under (sorry to use that term) however I wasn't!

Thanks ever so much for the input Chris - its great to get a professional in on this









Graham :smile2:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Another bad night, woke several times, gave up about 5am and got up, Liz 10 minutes later.

I do wonder about the long term effect of all this on us both, Liz has been like this since she lost her daughter about 10 years ago, I've been like it as long as I can remember.

We've tried different bed times, earlier 9ish seems better then at least you're getting some sort of rest, although in the van later works better FSR, if watching TV I like the last prog to be none serious, a comedy etc, then I read a bit on my Kindle, maybe 10-20 minutes, then I'm out like a light, Liz messes about on her iPaf google, games, etc, I feel that's not a good idea, but she takes no notice, however it does wake me up when she makes her final visit to the loo.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Sorry to hear that Kev mate :frown2:

I had another 4 (on my own scale) last night. Was wide awake around 4 times with some drift in between. All in all 2-3 hours kip if that!

Knackered now :frown2:

Graham :serious:


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## ardgour (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi Pat, Graham
I will try to put together a concise explanation of various bits for you which may help (and others might find vaguely interesting). I am tied up most of today and this evening but should have an hour or two tomorrow morning when I can sit down and work out a way of conveying the information in a useful way without rambling into endless pages.
Chris


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## havingfun (Oct 31, 2007)

hi,

will have to stop reading this thread, since i posted i must have had the worst few nights sleep in ages, it must be thinking about how bad it can get at times,as i said over the years it dosent bother me as much, so i,m going to try and not think i might have a bad night, but if i,m on here at 2am you will know its not working.

mags


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I do not suffer from the sort of sleeplessness that many of you have described but I occasionally have an hour or two awake.

One technique that helps me quite successfully is as follows.

I start to ensure my muscles are relaxed, working from my feet upwards, via my calves, thighs, up my back, then my arms, shoulders to my neck. 

Next is the other sensory organs - to close them down. I find smell and taste easiest, then hearing. The eyes are the hardest to stop/relax.

However I have had a 75% success rate. It may just be that concentrating on this method stops me thinking about what was keeping me awake.

I acknowledge that my problem might be minor in relation to others, but I post this in case it helps somebody.

If you are lying awake there is no harm in trying it.

Geoff


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

nicholsong said:


> I do not suffer from the sort of sleeplessness that many of you have described but I occasionally have an hour or two awake.
> 
> One technique that helps me quite successfully is as follows.
> 
> ...


Nice one Geoff - that is standard mindfulness/relaxation stuff which you are doing there.

I do it regularly and it is relaxing but doesn't aid my sleep though :frown2:

Thanks for sharing it though :smile2:

Graham :smile2:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Huge hug accepted Graham  Sorry I did not join in the sing song but I was not sure how rude it might end up!


Isn't it great how many people are trying so hard to help each other  


So sorry to cause sleeplessness Mags! As Graham and I have both discovered worrying about not sleeping is totally counter productive  I don't log on here in the evening.


The hormone information was taken from an article in the Daily Telegraph. A journalist had suffered from insomnia and crippling anxiety for years. After going down all the routes that we have been down, she ended up seeing a hormone specialist in Harley Street. After blood tests, he put her on HRT combined with testosterone. It totally transformed her life! After the original article she received letters and emails from loads of other women who had the same results from the treatment. She gave up on the testosterone, in the end, due to unwanted side effects like hair growth. It just goes to show that we need to take a holistic approach to these problems. Any one of us may be suffering from deficiencies or imbalances in our chemical make up. 


HRT has made a huge difference to my daily confidence levels and this has put me in a better place to deal with the insomnia. I can take the progesterone free version which is safer than the oestrogen containing one. Yes there are risks and the GP took a bit of persuading but I decided, like the journalist, that I would rather die early after a happy life than the alternative.


Perhaps investigating male hormone levels would reveal something?


If you read anything about stress it will tell you that your body is flooded with chemicals like adrenaline and cortisol. I don't profess to fully understand it but have been convinced, over my journey, that there is a lot more to our problems than the surface one of insomnia.


Kev - tell Liz that blue screens are not a good idea in the last hour before bed. They replicate daylight in our brain and make it harder for our brain to switch to sleep mode. Yes, I know she won't listen to you  Get her the book on insomnia mentioned above. That psychiatrist author is obsessed with us avoiding blue light and even energy saving light bulbs late at night. He recommends keeping a torch beside the bed to minimise light entering the eye on bathroom visits at night.
I agree with you about the tv content late at night. Shall we write to the BBC and insist that we have Ronnie Barker on loop after 9pm? Or, what about those two hour silent bus ride programmes? I am planning a tv free room in my house for the sake of marital harmony


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

patp said:


> Huge hug accepted Graham


Anytime











patp said:


> ...Sorry I did not join in the sing song but I was not sure how rude it might end up!


Extremely!











patp said:


> Isn't it great how many people are trying so hard to help each other


Totally agree. That's what I was hoping for.









Graham :smile2:


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## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

My experience with hypnotherapy was very successful. An Indian palm reader had a consulting room that I used to pass on my way to the parking garage. I was having a torrid time at work. A key female employee was making my life a misery. So that prompted me to have my palm read, which he did. He noticed that the area at the base of my thumb was covered in cross-hatching marks, which he said were a sign of stress. Let me hypnotise you he said and you'll be able to relax whenever you wish. Ever adventurous I said yes. I enjoyed the process but never actually felt out of it (as Chris describes). But afterwards when I walked to my car I felt like I was walking on bubbles. My eyes felt like they had been unclamped from the back. Strange sensation but felt very good. I went back for a second session and although this was 30 years ago I can still "assume the position" my arms on the chair arms and I can feel my shoulders melt and my chin settle on my chest. Five breaths and I want to lie down. I can do it with my arms in my lap which is helpful when I'm sitting on the side of the bed. I just lie down at the right moment and I'm gone. If you can crack it, it's great.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I suppose going to bed after a few sleepless nights, could also be a elf fulfilling prophecy too   you expect to wake up and not get back off to sleep again so you don't.

Just a fort like.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Kev

It is a danger which is why it is so important not to let it get to you. As I said before, I am over the 'getting angry 'coz I cant sleep' bit as it does keep you awake, as you say.

Graham:serious:


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

I'm a bit hesitant about adding my bit in case it's seen as criticism - which it isn't at all. 

Somewhere at the beginning of the thread someone mentioned using an app to monitor his/her sleep. I wonder if it would be worth giving that a try Graham? 

At the moment you are monitoring your night's sleep and that takes some mental effort to store the information for the morning. 

Why not hand over the job to a gizmo? It might relieve you of some pressure? 

It might also give you good news. I remember on occasion complaining to my husband that I didn't sleep a wink. "Well, you were breathing very heavily earlier on" (he might actually have said I was snoring!)


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

GMJ said:


> Kev
> 
> It is a danger which is why it is so important not to let it get to you. As I said before, I am over the 'getting angry 'coz I cant sleep' bit as it does keep you awake, as you say.
> 
> Graham:serious:


Been up since 4:15. Liz is working today but can stay in bed til 7ish, but my head is as usual buzzing around over crap, so I gave in and got up, a bit too warm in bed anyway last night too, and my tinnitus seems very loud in the night.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Been up since 4:15. Liz is working today but can stay in bed til 7ish, but my head is as usual buzzing around over crap, so I gave in and got up, a bit too warm in bed anyway last night too, and my tinnitus seems very loud in the night.


I was up at 4.30 too but had been lying there for a while! :frown2:

Graham :serious:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Yeah I woke at 3am, got a lot on my mind though.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

jiwawa said:


> I'm a bit hesitant about adding my bit in case it's seen as criticism - which it isn't at all.
> 
> Somewhere at the beginning of the thread someone mentioned using an app to monitor his/her sleep. I wonder if it would be worth giving that a try Graham?
> 
> ...


I cant see any criticism only an attempt at some good advice. :smile2:

It takes me 1 second to jot down how I slept with very little thought and zero pressure tbh. Plus I prefer the phone to be off at night if I'm honest.

The issue with breathing noises cant be directly related to sleep or indeed the quality of sleep, in my instance. As I explained earlier when I went to the hypnotherapist she was certain that I was 'under' due to my breathing and monitored signs...however I was not. My wife sometimes looks across at me whilst in bed expecting me to have fallen asleep but my eyes are open and I am wide awake...its just that I have learned how to relax and regulate my breathing.

Lying awake for hour after hour, night after night gives great opportunities to practice relaxation techniques, breathing techniques and mindfulness. From these I am able to relax during the long hours which is something and certainly better than just lying there.

Thanks though as this info may help someone :smile2:

Graham :smile2:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I had an app a while back, perhaps it might be worth trying it again, as for the phone it's also my alarm for Liz, but I turn of the WiFi, and put it in plane mode, sound turned down low.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Yeah I woke at 3am, got a lot on my mind though.


This sounds awfully like my situation Kev. I hope you can do something to crack it or it'll get worse mate...

Graham :serious:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

GMJ said:


> This sounds awfully like my situation Kev. I hope you can do something to crack it or it'll get worse mate...
> 
> Graham :serious:


I also get song lyrics going round in my head, usually a song I don;t bloody know so I have to keep going round n round til I get it right, I think I'll have to start wearing a nappy then I can stay in bed, but that brings this to mind.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I get the random song thing too...I think they call it an 'ear worm' :grin2:

Graham :smile2:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Sounds uncomfortable.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Up at 2.30 ish - I don't look at the clock too closely. Made a decision to just visit the bathroom, take the Diazepam and return to bed. No going downstairs to read this time. I made this decision based on my experience of my inner time clock. I have much more chance of going back to sleep before 3 to 3.30 ish. After that time it is a real struggle so I have learned to just, either give in and get up or do what I have been doing lately and take the latest drug, read for a bit and try going back again. This will only, usually, work before 5am. I am fine with being up after 5am anyway. Not so nice in the depths of winter but hey ho. I did go back to sleep until 5.20 


Viv - that is fascinating! Of course being hypnotised is not the same as sleeping - or is it? I am sure Chris will tell us. My hypnotherapist told me that 20 minutes of hypnosis is worth a couple of hours sleep. I never really understood whether I was hypnotised or not. The therapist would go very quiet at the end of the session. I got the feeling she was disappointed so perhaps I did not go under?


Kev - I think you are right about the self fulfilling prophecy. This is what Graham and I say about acceptance. The minute you let that thought "oh no!" into your mind then the chemicals all start flowing through your body and you get pushed further away from sleep. It takes a lot of doing when you know you are going to feel so crap the next day to just accept things. When I first decided to accept it I just cleared my diary as much as I could and went with the flow. I decided that I would just have a lunchtime nap if I was feeling crap. Just so glad I could do that now that I am retired. My brother has taken power naps at lunchtime for donkeys years. The book I recommended is very strong on not doing it and I know that it does not help Graham but I found that a daytime nap made absolutely no difference to my night's sleep. In fact, during a really bad spell, I gave in to napping, had several during the day, including close to bedtime (!) and had one of the best night's sleep I had had for ages. Whether this was pure exhaustion or not I do not know. It did not, sadly, last.


There is lots of opinion out there that us insomniacs sleep more than we think we do. I am sure it is true sometimes. We do, however, come to understand, over time, what is one of those nights when you have "not slept well", thinking that you have been awake most of the night, and true wakefulness with the inability to fall asleep again.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

The problem is mostly of course that we are of a higher intellect and the old noggin is hyper active, solving problems which haven't happened yet, well I keep telling myself that  

I'd open my Kindle and read for a bit, but that would wake Liz, so I'm stuck really, get up or suffer, I mostly suffer.

I'm not averse to an afternoon snooze either, do or don't seems to make no difference really.

Sugar, can have an effect on me though, I'm like a bloody 8 year old if I have too much, or would be if I didn't feel so bloody knackered all the time.

But with type 2 I have to be careful of the sugar, but some days you do seem to get a bit more than normal, and I don't sleep well on those days.


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## ardgour (Mar 22, 2008)

I promised a longer explanation of various things but I am not sure how long a post is allowed to be so I will do it in 2 parts, starting with the hypnosis bit.
First an explanation. The normal progression between fully awake and fully unconscious is: awake > hypnotic state > sleep > unconsciousness 
so you can see that we naturally pass through a hypnotic state every time we go to sleep or wake up (called hypnogogic and hypnopompic states for those who are interested). Because the hypnotic state is a normal precursor to sleep and waking then it is easy to see why a skilled hypnotherapist can use this to help you retrain your brain to go into the deeper sleep state.
The easiest way to explain a hypnotic state is to think about that moment as you begin to slowly fall into a deep sleep, your body is very relaxed and feels heavy, eyes closed but your mind is still awake. You are aware of noises or movement around you and you could respond to them or just get up but it feels like too much effort and then you drift down into full sleep. That is exactly what it feels like to be hypnotised - you sit there with your eyes closed thinking 'this isn't working, nothing is happening, I am just pretending, I could open my eyes and say something - oh I am too comfortable and can't be bothered' and then your mind begins to drift. You may be vaguely aware that the therapist is speaking and may pick up odd words or phrases but not necessarily. What is happening is that you have been guided into a state where the conscious, rational part of your mind is 'disconnected' from the much larger unconscious part of the mind. This unconscious mind is the more primitive,impulsive, child-like part where our memories and experiences are stored and most of our behaviour patterns originate, but it is not under conscious control. It is the area responsible for impulsive actions such as when we jump at a loud noise or when we say why do I always manage to …..' 
Most human behaviour is either conditioned or learned and these patterns are often set down very early in life with all our life experiences contributing to the way we react in various situations. It is like kids walking a path through a cornfield - after a while the path is so well trodden that it becomes a fixture and difficult to change because it is so well trodden. Our behaviour patterns are just paths in the cornfield of our minds :smile2: - and that is why it takes a determined effort to change behaviours (in essence to make a new path and avoid using the old one). Another thing to remember is that behaviour patterns are built up over time and only continue because your mind finds some benefit from them, either a perceived reward or successful avoidance of something unpleasant. You will probably be completely unaware of this happening - the mind is a secretive place! We all have 'bad' habits that we are sometimes unaware of doing but are really difficult to stop. A skilled hypnotherapist can help you change these patterns, but only if you really want to. If you don't really want to change the path for whatever reason then it will not change. Hypnosis can never overrule free will and you can never be made to do something in a hypnotised state that you don't want to do (regardless of what the stage hypnotists may say). Another lesson we learn very early in training is that if the mind sees a benefit from a particular behaviour then removing that behaviour will just result in something else (possibly even worse) taking its place unless an appropriate alternative is put in place. Think of smokers who give up but start comfort eating.
Enough of that and back to your experiences. 
Graham - the monitor you describe sounds like some sort of pulse or HRV (heart rate variability) monitor. This may have shown you were relaxed but a therapist can see that just by observation (and constant observation is necessary throughout a session to know when to deepen the trance or alter suggestions). You already know how to go into a relaxed state so it is just that final step into deep and restful sleep that you need.
Pat - from your description it sounds like the therapist was using CBT (cognitive behaviour therapy) or NLP (neuro linguistic programming) along with hypnosis. There are lots of different approaches when dealing with the mind - it is a deep and mysterious place - and different techniques will suit different people. You ask how hypnotherapy might address the situation you describe of feeling the need to be good etc. It may be necessary to use something like a dissociation technique first but ultimately it comes down to making that new pathway and putting a firmly locked gate across the old one. Sounds bizarre I know but I have seen it work very successfully.
HermanHymer's experience is a common one - once learned the technique is there for life (remember the pathway through the cornfield) I now live hundreds of miles from where I worked but a couple of months ago I bumped into a former patient who was in this area on holiday. When she first came to see me she had been suffering from such crippling anxiety attacks that she struggled to go anywhere. She told me that every now and then she still gets a little shiver of that returning but as soon as it does she can hear my voice and her mind clicks into what she learned with me and it goes away. Sometimes the job satisfaction continues even though I have been retired for 4 years:smile2::smile2::smile2:
If you go to see a therapist then have a clear idea of what you want to achieve from the session and tell them. After an initial chat to get an idea of what you perceive as the problem and want to achieve they should tell you first if they think they can help, how long it is likely to take (number of sessions) and exactly how they will go about it (treatment plan). If they don't or won't do this then walk away and find someone else.
OK hope that helps someone. I will go away and type up the other bit about the 'chemicals' in your body related to stress and post that separately


Chris


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## ardgour (Mar 22, 2008)

Now for explanation part 2.

Pat mentioned the 'chemicals' circulating in the body that are caused by stress. These are both hormones and neurotransmitters that keep us alive and functioning and are part of our 'fight or flight' system. They all naturally fluctuate throughout the day and throughout life. The fight or flight mechanism is very primitive and developed to protect us from danger. When a threat is perceived (you are confronted by a sabre toothed tiger say) the body releases adrenalin which diverts blood to the lungs and muscles and constricts blood vessels to raise the blood pressure to allow you to run away faster, causes glycogen stored in the liver to be converted back to glucose and released into the blood stream to fuel the increased muscle activity and shuts down the blood supply to the stomach and intestines (you don't need to waste energy digesting your dinner) and the higher centres of the brain which dominate rational thinking and memory retrieval (no need to think through the problem, just run fast). From this you can see why when adrenaline is released you feel sick and may vomit (lighten the load in your stomach to run faster) and have trouble thinking clearly. The trouble is this same system which developed to deal with immediate life threatening situations is also triggered by 'modern threats' such as deadlines at work, traffic jams, information overload etc. Because it is raising blood pressure and blood sugar, inhibiting the action of insulin, interfering with digestion and reducing the ability to think clearly and retrieve memory you can see why people suffering from a lot of stress can develop significant health problems. Adrenalin is fast acting and deals with the immediate threat but to sustain a response the body releases cortisone. This continues the body's ability to deal with a life threatening situation and also suppresses pain signals and non-urgent body functions such as the immune system and healing (no point in fighting off an infection or healing a cut if you might be eaten any second now). Because these hormones have put your body on high alert to deal with a perceived threat they are not going to allow you to take a quick nap - hence their impact on sleep. Obviously once you have successfully run away from this sabre toothed tiger you feel elated and have a joyous celebration. This leads to the release of acetylcholine which is the antagonist of adrenaline - it works opposite, adrenaline activates the sympathetic nervous system, acetylcholine the parasympathetic nervous system so everything returns to normal and all is well. Unfortunately we don't tend to get the same sense of joy at meeting a deadline, getting through traffic etc so the adrenalin is not 'mopped up' in the same way and the effects continue.
Cortisol also has an opposite called DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone if you really want to know) the feel good hormone, which happens to be a precursor to both oestrogen and testosterone but it is also often referred to as the 'youth drug' because it has been found that people who stay young looking tend to have very high levels of this hormone. If you are still awake and following this it may be dawning on you that there could be a link between people thinking taking oestrogen/ testosterone supplements helps keep you young and feeling good and this link to DHEA. There are supplements of DHEA available but it is very uncertain what effect they may have when taken by mouth and you really don't want to know how they are obtained.:surprise: There are very simple ways of boosting natural levels of DHEA but I will come to that in a minute.
Unfortunately modern life seems geared to increasing our stress levels. 24 hour information overload, the media who seem to relish negative stories and conflict, 'gritty dramas' as entertainment, even civilised public debate seems to have disappeared into name calling sound bites and general back biting (yes I am talking about our elected representatives). The competition culture, reality TV, advertising tactics designed to make us want more, I feel stressed just thinking about it and that is exactly what is happening in our modern world. Our biology is still the one that evolved slowly over millions of years to deal with our environment but that environment has changed so dramatically in the last 50 years that we struggle to cope with it.
When both adrenalin and cortisol levels are high it leads to frustrated, angry people.
If you are very stressed and just relax then the level of adrenalin will come down but cortisol levels could remain high leading to loss of interest, feeling cynical and tired all the time. Sounds like much of modern society doesn't it? 
However if the cortisol levels can be reduced as well it allows the body to return to a more balanced and positive state.
So now the good bit - how to increase DHEA and reduce cortisol.

1) Have a good laugh. When was the last time you were rolling around helpless with laughter with tears streaming down your face? Pat's suggestion of Ronnie Barker on a continuous loop after 9pm might be a good idea. Fork handles anyone?

2) Touch. Have a massage, get your partner to rub your hands or feet gently, it is incredibly relaxing *and* boosts those feel good hormones. If you don't have a partner handy just stroking a dog or cat has the same effect and the dog/cat will enjoy the same benefits. No partner or pet? Then just gently but firmly rub the fingers of one hand across the palm of the other, it all helps activate the bits you need.

3) Get your shoes off and walk barefoot on grass every day, feel the grass between your toes. If the nosy neighbours look at you a bit strange just wave at them and smile. It will probably make you giggle which raises your DHEA even further - result.:grin2:
Once you have done all that and you are giggling away with your shoes off as you stroke the dog your stress hormones will be down and you can get on with your life (even if everyone else is wondering what you have been taking):smile2::smile2:
Sorry to be so long winded. Hope it helps
Chris


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Wow Chris! Thank you so much. Not only informative but easy to understand.


I was reading recently (about dogs actually, but they have the same stress responses as us) that the cortisol levels can take up to 40 minutes to drop down after a stressful event. Would you say the same thing happens in humans unless we actively intervene to try to raise our DHEA. I wonder if, when we wake in the night it is in response to a stressful thought roo


Now another thought has just entered my head. I have been dealing with my new rescue dog (I used to be a Pet Behaviour Therapist). He has high levels of fear and, therefore, stress. An ex Medical Scientist, now a top Pet Behaviour Therapist has developed a diet that enhances the Serotonin (and others which I forget) levels in a dog's brain. This is a "feel good" chemical. It is working very well on my dog, he is much more relaxed and happy. He sleeps very well!


Is there any research about similar ways, using diet, to enhance our sense of wellbeing (yes I know there is always alcohol but we all know the after effects out weighs the benefits  )? In the dim and distant past, when I qualified, our lecturer made a comment that separating protein and carbohydrate and adding vitamin B6 in our diet (the basis of the dog diet) also works on humans to lift their emotional state. I know there was a slimming diet a while back that told us to eat protein and carbohydrate in separate meals. This may well have caused those taking part to feel good and to, therefore, not comfort eat so much?


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## ardgour (Mar 22, 2008)

patp said:


> Wow Chris! Thank you so much. Not only informative but easy to understand.
> 
> I was reading recently (about dogs actually, but they have the same stress responses as us) that the cortisol levels can take up to 40 minutes to drop down after a stressful event. Would you say the same thing happens in humans unless we actively intervene to try to raise our DHEA. I wonder if, when we wake in the night it is in response to a stressful thought roo
> 
> ...


Although dogs have the same sort of fight/flight mechanism as us there is one big difference - dogs live in the moment, when the threat goes it is gone unless a similar set of circumstances triggers the response again. Us humans tend to think about what has happened/ what could have happened/ what could I have done differently and that continues the stress. However you can push up your DHEA level to reverse the effect very quickly (a minute or two) with strong positive emotions.
Diet does not directly raise serotonin levels, just provides the building blocks needed for the body to make it and a common way of doing it is with carbohydrates - thats why they are so addictive, but the body will naturally restore levels to normal quite quickly so any artificial raising of levels will be counteracted. As for fad diets and eating things separately - remember our biology. We are omnivores who still have the basic biology of a hunter/ gatherer, we eat what is available be it nuts, seeds, fruit, roots or animal protein and fat. If we had evolved to only eat these things separately I suspect the human race would have died out by now.
As for your dog, he has gone from a stressful situation to feeling safe and looked after with regular food and no doubt lots of tactile stimulation. The stress has gone - he sleeps well. No member of the animal kingdom sleeps well if they feel the need to remain on high alert.
The bottom line is that our minds are the biggest and best tool for improving our sense of wellbeing - or destroying it. The great challenge is to learn how to control your mind rather than letting it control you. 
There is a system that uses biofeedback through monitoring your HRV (heart rate variability) that helps to train your mind to naturally increase DHEA levels but it is expensive. I know some on the internet have tried to rubbish it but it is based on very sound science with good research to back it up and I used whilst working in the NHS. When I left the NHS I bought the full system to use for myself and various friends have used it with success. But you could always just remember to have a good chuckle, stroke the dog and walk barefoot in the grass every day then count your blessings and forget the rest:smile2:

Chris


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## Pollydoodle (Aug 18, 2005)

My problem is going to sleep.. I can sit watching the tv and my eyes starting closing, but as soon as I get into bed, its like the lights are on and my brain goes into overdrive. I'm generally not worrying about anything, mostly useless stuff like how do the chinese eat gravy with chopsticks. :laugh: Othertimes I read in bed, the book falls out of my hands several times so I settle down to sleep, fat chance! 

I try to keep off the computer or tablet after 8pm as that is a no no. 

Like everyone else I have tried all the recommended remedies, some work sometimes and mostly they dont. after tossing and turning for an hour, I get up go down stairs and make a cup of tea and an apricot jam sandwich, (has to be apricot!!) read until my head hits the table then go back to bed and I usually drop off. Once asleep I can get up several times in the night and go back to sleep again. I have this problem for years, I can go for several days with a reasonable sleep pattern and then it goes pearshaped (like me lol) for a while.
I think maybe learning to live with it goes someway to help, although one night last week I only had 2 hours sleep and was like a zombie the next day. At least, usually, if I'm like that, I know I will sleep the next night, if only from exhaustion!


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Thank you so much Chris, for that insight.


It is the dog that gives me the stress so no good stroking him, and walking in the grass has to be preceded by a search with a shovel!  Only joking. I take your point and it is where the hypnotherapist was trying to take me during our sessions. All makes good sense when you explain it.


Pollydoodle - I have been in your situation. I feel for you, so frustrating isn't I?. I came to dread going to bed. Such a shame as I used to really look forward to it. I had to resort to drugs to retrain my body that going to bed meant going to sleep not lying awake. I only needed those drugs for a short while. During that time I did all the usual cutting out caffeine, getting lots of fresh air and exercise etc and it resolved eventually. I am still struggling with the staying asleep all night but getting there slowly. The book mentioned earlier in this thread might help you. It is available on Kindle.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Pollydoodle said:


> My problem is going to sleep.. I can sit watching the tv and my eyes starting closing, but as soon as I get into bed, its like the lights are on and my brain goes into overdrive. I'm generally not worrying about anything, mostly useless stuff like how do the chinese eat gravy with chopsticks. :laugh: Othertimes I read in bed, the book falls out of my hands several times so I settle down to sleep, fat chance!
> 
> I try to keep off the computer or tablet after 8pm as that is a no no.
> 
> ...


Oh dear - this doesnt sound too good :frown2: but thanks for sharing...

Learning to live with it certainly helps your mental health but perhaps not your well being. It might be worth doing some research or seeking out some help (GP?) to try and break out of the pattern. Have a good read of this whole thread as there are loads of interesting things that might be worth pursuing

I am now well into my last throw of the dice with prescription drugs. I am due to ring the quack early next week as I am running short. He can recommend doubling the dose again but I suspect he wont. As it stands I am not sure what the future holds but I am beginning to suspect that I may never teach again...let alone sleep properly again :crying:

Please do keep contributing as , if nothing else, you will get some empathy on here and we wont keep telling you to drink a hot milky drink before bedtime...

Graham :frown2:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Well, six month check with doctor and he is really happy with my progress.


He was not keen with me using the Diazepam 2mg, he gave me for travel anxiety, for going back to sleep during the night. He has changed it to Zopiclone 3.75mg. He says that it is quick acting and wears off quickly too. I have tried taking this before but, because I was taking it when retiring for the night, it, like all the others, would wear off at about 4am.
So far the Zopiclone is working, if I awake just once at 2, 3 or 4 am, in enabling me to get back to sleep until about 6ish. I can cope with that!
Diazepam is addictive after several months. Zopiclone can be addictive but it takes longer. I am hoping that, before that happens, I will have retrained my body that getting into bed, after a short session of reading, means it is time to go to sleep.


Of course I am still using Mindfulness, relaxation techniques, lots of exercise, yoga, little caffeine, no screens at night, etc etc etc


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Nice one Pat - I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

I have had 2 bad nights back to back...both a '2' on the Graham scale. I awake prior to 2.00am this morning and got up at 4.00 :frown2:

I'll be ringing the quack tomorrow/Tuesday about next steps

Graham :serious:


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

This is quite apt....

Graham :smile2:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Thanks Graham. Sorry to hear about your bad nights. Hope the doctor has some ideas.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Something, for people to be aware of, popped into my head during the night (!).


Do make sure you are properly hydrated. Lots of people stop drinking fluids to avoid those boring bathroom trips. I went to see an acupuncturist, a few years ago, for help with my insomnia and he recommended - two glasses of water when you get up, two before breakfast, two before lunch and two before dinner. I thought he was a bit cranky and ignored him until, a few months later, I was suffering from a lingering headache. A colleague suggested I might be dehydrated and the acupuncturist's words entered my head. I followed his advice and had the best night's sleep I had enjoyed in months! The headache went too!


The above technique did not cure my insomnia but I am sure it helped. I could not stick to all that water so I drink as much clear fluid as I can and avoid caffeine and alcohol (most of the time  )


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## greygit (Apr 15, 2007)

Meditation?


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

greygit said:


> Meditation?


 We are all there before you greygit  Mindfulness is meditation by another name. At least that is my understanding.
I am finding mindfulness very helpful


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

greygit said:


> Meditation?


...apparently it makes you go blind!

Or have I got that wrong?

Graham :wink2:


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## greygit (Apr 15, 2007)

patp said:


> We are all there before you greygit  Mindfulness is meditation by another name. At least that is my understanding.
> I am finding mindfulness very helpful


 Actually there are two main types of meditation, one is called (I think) concentration meditation and the other, I forget what it's called. Years ago I found meditation very good on lots of levels and I would recommend it to anyone, now a days I find I can slow my mind down and relax without meditating and when I use wine it's even better. :smile2:


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Since retirement I no longer find it a problem 

I usually fall asleep ok 

Wake 3/4 hrs later

And then I read

Morning has no real meaning anymore

I may fall asleep or may not

If not I can have an afternoon nap

Sandr


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

That is a great attitude to have Sandra  I am trying to cultivate it...


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

It's really quite easy patp

If there is nothing on the 24 hour clock to say when you sleep or when you don't 

Then you sleep or wake when it suits you , or suits your body clock 

Great for reading a good book in the wee small hrs in peace and quiet 

A problem if you have an appointment you can't miss

But then you just deal with it 

And fit a snooze in at a later time 

Remember nothing says you need to sleep or get up at a certain time if work is no longer a defining factor 

You are the defining factor

Sandra


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Sorry lost the thread for a day or six, had one really good night in the van, since then it's been hell, tried giving in and getting up, but all that did was make me worserer, I'm starting to lose the plot, Liz is back today so getting in and out of bed won't be an option as it'll wake her too.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I spoke with the quack yesterday as the current meds are not working. So now I have moved to proper sleeping tablets. We have both held out against this due to their habit forming nature however its a last resort to try and 'kick start' my sleep.

I am to take 2 alongside my current anti depressants and if they work after a week cut down to 1; then cut back to none the following week. If they dont work then after 3-4 days Im to ring him again to try a different type.

I have also been signed off work until the end of October now too!

Awake at 3.00 and up at 4.50 this morning :frown2:

Graham :serious:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

It's not good G


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Sorry to hear that guys 


Recently I have been in a pattern of waking between 1.30am and 4.30 am. I get up, take the sleeping tablet, read until yawning, then back to bed and sleep until 6ish. I can cope with that.

Last night, for some reason, I was really cold and just could not drop off when I first went to bed! I got up 3 times (nothing, and I mean nothing, wakes Chris up) and read for a bit. I put several layers on to warm up. Did not want to take sleeping tablet so early in the night but ended up still awake at 1.30am so took it then. Awake again at 5.45.


Chris sleeps like a log. We once had an accident happen right outside our house. It woke me up. I went to the bedroom window and leaned out. It was foggy and someone had crashed into a telegraph pole. I called out and got no response. I heard another car pull up so called out again. A chap from further up the village responded and we had a conversation about the abandoned car wrapped around the telegraph pole. We decided to call the police in case the driver was injured in a ditch somewhere. It was at this point that I decided to rouse Chris to tell him that the police were on their way and might want to put the car in our driveway. He had slept, just feet away from the window, through the whole drama!


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

This is interesting - http://www.cmuse.org/psychological-and-physical-benefits-of-choral-singing/?platform=hootsuite

The last really good night's sleep I had was after I took part in a charity performance organised by a choir that I belong to. It is not a professional type choir just one run for social enjoyment. They call them "Wellbeing Choirs". Might help some on here?


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Well, these new tablets are certainly knocking me out!

I am lying there falling asleep whilst trying to catch up with the news or read a book...which is new. They are taking effect withing 1.5 hours of taking them. However I am still waking up during the night and getting also up early (5.00am today). In terms of waking up during the night, I seem to be getting back to sleep better though.

Early days but fingers crossed.

I'll take the tablets tonight just before lights out and see if that extends my sleep (without delaying it)

Graham :smile2:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Fingers crossed for you Graham. Things look so much better after a good night's sleep.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

patp said:


> Fingers crossed for you Graham. Things look so much better after a good night's sleep.


Thanks Pat :grin2:

I'll let you know when I get one :wink2:

I'l have a play around with the timings and report back...

Graham :smile2:


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## wizzardi (Apr 2, 2011)

The good news for you people is that there is only two more sleeps until christmas


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

wizzardi said:


> The good news for you people is that there is only two more sleeps until christmas












Graham


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

wizzardi said:


> The good news for you people is that there is only two more sleeps until christmas


 Thank goodness for that... Can use it as an excuse for being so disorganised


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

We're getting a new bed delivered today, so hopefully it will help us both get a bit more sleep, although last night I only got up once to the loo, (trying to train myself, so woke a few times, but managed to go back off) took an hour to get back off though, feel groggy as hell now.

New bed is a pocket sprung device, super king, with the zip together single mattresses, Liz has gone for the hard one, me for the softer option, it came from Bensons for beds, and the mattresses are the Staples Grandeur ones.

http://www.bensonsforbeds.co.uk/grandeur-graphite-zip-and-link-divan-bed-set/?variantSku=410807859 these are the mattresses, but our bed is different, full price was £2200, sale price £1499, I offered £1000, and they accepted, we can move independantly and can't feel each other move which has been one of the problem, going super king also gives me an extra 6".

I just noticed it says "The Grandeur exclusively designed for Bensons for Beds", but you can buy them elsewhere if you look at stockist on the Staple web site.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

....nice negotiations Kev









A true Yorkie:wink2:

Graham :grin2:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

We have a zip and link bed Kev. Originally because a full King size would not fit up our cottage stairs but now because we prefer it.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

+1 for zip'n'link. Makes a big difference. 

I don't actually zip them together - makes it much easier to turn and flip when necessary. And that seems quite often :-(


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

jiwawa said:


> +1 for zip'n'link. Makes a big difference.
> 
> I don't actually zip them together - makes it much easier to turn and flip when necessary. And that seems quite often :-(


My instructions say flip every week for first 6 weeks then every 6-8 weeks.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Mine were every week for 6 weeks then every month. Can't remember when I flipped n when I merely turned. 

Having had them more than a year I now turn every month n flip just twice a year at the change of seasons. One side is summer, the other winter - not that I notice any difference. 

Don't know about yours but ours are pretty heavy :-(

But at least not having to struggle with a zip makes it much easier.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

We swear by memory foam, tempour mattresses

Not for everyone, not cheap 

But for us it cushions our joints 

Need to be buying a new one now and will put ours onto the spare bedroom bed 

Still excellent but it's due a change

Can't say it makes a difference to whether I wake or sleep though

Just means I don't wake with backache or other aches 

But I no longer worry about sleep, I read and can always sleep later or not

Some nights in the van I sleep very little, last night I slept all night 

Tonight who knows ?

But I've got a good book 

Sandra


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Do you find the memory foam hot though Sandra? Lots of people do. I already suffer with waking up burning (not sweating) hot. Have to get up to let bed cool. The mattress is, literally, too hot to touch.
Memory foam sounds wonderful, especially on those cold nights when you just want cossetting.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Bed arrived, spent hours last night emptying the ottoman bed and finding paces for all the crap which was hiding in there, vacuumed then found the damned bed bases wouldn't go through the doors, Grr, going to have to remove a window today and bring them in that way, so we camped out on the mattresses last night, very comfortable, not a bad nights kip, got up about 5 though.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

patp said:


> Do you find the memory foam hot though Sandra? Lots of people do. I already suffer with waking up burning (not sweating) hot. Have to get up to let bed cool. The mattress is, literally, too hot to touch.
> Memory foam sounds wonderful, especially on those cold nights when you just want cossetting.


We do at...myself more than my wife. She LOVES being warm and snuggly whereas I am a 'let it all hang oot' type of guy so I stick my arms/torso/ass/legs out to keep my temperature comfortable.

I'm like this during the day: Mrs GMJ has started putting the heating on in the morning and night now (not every day mind) whilst I am still in flip flops, polo short and shorts!

Graham :smile2:


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

My new sleeping pills had some effect in that they knocked me out within 30 mins of taking them. However I was still waking up anytime from 3.00am onwards. After speaking with the quack yesterday I dropped to 1 pill and it appears to have had a similar effect to taking 2. I'll give it a week on 1 to see what happens.

I am seeing the quack again on Monday however I now have a new one so hopefully some fresh perspective will help.

Graham :smile2:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

GMJ said:


> We do at...myself more than my wife. She LOVES being warm and snuggly whereas I am a 'let it all hang oot' type of guy so I stick my arms/torso/ass/legs out to keep my temperature comfortable.
> 
> I'm like this during the day: Mrs GMJ has started putting the heating on in the morning and night now (not every day mind) whilst I am still in flip flops, polo short and shorts!
> 
> Graham :smile2:


I'm the one who's always cold here, have been since I was a nipper, Liz is like a damned furnace, good for cuddling though


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## bc109 (Sep 17, 2016)

*Mind game*

I find that allowing my mind to wander into a theme, the past, the imaginary future, a problem to solve
a worry... what if scenarios.... stops me from falling asleep for some considerable time.
The common theme is that my mind is working, supposedly logically towards some goal imaginary or otherwise.

A recent idea seen in the news somewhere suggests taking a word, then using each letter to find a word
that doesn't connect....making nonsense....so for example "motorhome"....Me, Option, Toga, Organise, Rowboat, Hop, Order, Moat, Every; each word having no connection with the previous one; then do it again and again, so that the mind is totally scrambled and realises there is nothing to think about, worry about, no target to reach.....nothing to do.....so it's OK to allow me to sleep.
I find that about 2 and a half times around the word is as much as I can concentrate on. Lately I realise that short words are all I can manage. I don't know what happens then. I wake up much much later on.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

bc109 said:


> I find that allowing my mind to wander into a theme, the past, the imaginary future, a problem to solve
> a worry... what if scenarios.... stops me from falling asleep for some considerable time.
> The common theme is that my mind is working, supposedly logically towards some goal imaginary or otherwise.


Describes my nights to a T.

Got to sleep on the new bed properly last night, even with the mattresses zipped together feeling eachothers movement is imperceptible, but my side bloody creaks when I get out, I'll try bouncing on it later, and maybe moving it slightly in case it's the floor, if it's still there I'll have to invoke the warranty, which will mean the damned window will have to come out again, which was a real pain in the posterior yesterday, as the frame wasn't fitted square, and I had to jiggle the glass out, and it's not light.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> ...I'll try bouncing on it later...


OY OY...Steady on Kev :wink2:

Seriously, I hope it works out for you

Graham:smile2:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Silly arse.

Re PM, got a scammer last night :roll:


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Silly arse.
> 
> Re PM, got a scammer last night :roll:


PM me mate - I'd like to hear about that

Graham :serious:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Oh Kev! Hope you are ok after wrestling with windows, beds, mattresses and bouncing! Surprised you didn't fall into a deep eight hour kip after that lot!


Graham, I take my sleeping tablet when I wake up in the middle of the night. I rarely have trouble falling asleep at bedtime. It is psychologically comforting to me to know that this, inevitable, wake up in the middle of the night is not going to be "it" for the rest of the night.


I practice yoga before bed and mindfulness when I get up. Would still love to sleep right through the night but I can cope with this pattern at the moment.


Having said I rarely have trouble falling asleep at bedtime, the other night I watched one of those 24 hours to save your life programmes. I love them normally but it was too stressful just before bed. I am also reading a thriller and that did not help either! Had to get up and start over again. Thank god for Kindle as I found a more soothing tome to send me off.


bc109 glad to hear a mind game works for you. I have tried several and just find that I want to solve or finish them. One is to count backwards from 99. I would either wander off onto another train of thought or try hard to reach zero! Either way I was still awake hours later


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

patp said:


> Graham, I take my sleeping tablet when I wake up in the middle of the night. I rarely have trouble falling asleep at bedtime. It is psychologically comforting to me to know that this, inevitable, wake up in the middle of the night is not going to be "it" for the rest of the night.


That sounds like a good idea...I'll discuss it with the Dr on Monday.

ta

Graham :smile2:


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Saw the new Dr yesterday - lovely lady - and had a 20 min appt as I went in 10 mins before surgery started (her idea, so she could get the full story).

The net result is that last night was my first night off the sleeping pills, which tbh, was in line with the last Dr's advice too. I had taken 2 for a week and 1 for a week to try and kick start my sleeping. Well, they did improve my sleeping as I was getting 2 cycles however last night without the tablets, I awoke at 11.40pm...and that was that :frown2:

The sleeping pills I was on have a short life in terms of their effectiveness so they were never a permanent solution.

She is ringing me Thursday to check on how I'm getting on! Then we are going to phase out the anti depressants and she has a better one to try apparently which have a sedative effect.

We had a good chat about my lifestyle and any stress points etc and for the first time a Dr has suggested that perhaps if what we are doing doesn't ultimately work then I should consider changing my profession. Tbh if it doesn't work I'll probably take early retirement...

Oh well, we'll await the next roll of the dice....

Graham :serious:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Sorry to hear you had a bad night Graham 


New doctor sounds dedicated. Nice of her to extend your appointment like that. My brother, who coached a national women's soccer team in the States for 20 years and won all the major titles, swears that female doctors try harder. He says the male attitude is "yeah, yeah coach, can we just get on with it" while the female attitude is " how can I do a better job?" He tries, where he can, to always get a female doctor.
Sounds like retirement might be your best option.


I have to say that, long term. none of the anti depressants helped me. It was the combination of CBT, exercise, mindfulness, acceptance. Not there yet though!


Last night I could not drop off, which is unusual for me. Lots of aches and pains along with a sore throat so got up for pain killers. Resisted the sleeping tablet as I was saving it for later. Back to bed at 12.30 ish and went off again until 4.50. Decided that, what with my cold, and the really busy day I had yesterday I warranted another few hours so took a sleeping tablet rather than get up for the day. Slept from 5.30 to 7.30.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Sorry to hear this G   

I seem to be improving on the new bed, not sure if it's more space (I'm better on the vans big bed) or lack of movement, but I do still wake early but after being in bed for about 7-8 hours, I'm not one for lying awake.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Thanks Kev...same here re lying in bed.

I got up at 6.00am as I was bored. I try to stay in be until at least 5.00am if possible

I've got 'perma-headache' today now so I know it was one of the worse ones

Graham :serious:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Try this on for size.

http://newatlas.com/thim-sleep-trac...ail&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-73d7d9d77c-92463125


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Hmmm. It is similar to the thing I am trying to train myself to do. I get up when I wake up and take a sleeping tablet. After a short while I go back to bed and fall asleep. This teaches my body to not lie awake in bed. It also, hopefully, is teaching my body that when I go to bed I go to sleep. This is the most important thing. I am hoping, eventually, to just get up go to the bathroom and go back to bed and fall asleep because I have been doing that for x number of weeks/months aided by a sleeping tablet.


I am not sure about being woken every few minutes. It assumes I would go straight back to sleep. I do not think that would happen.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I'll pass if its OK with you Kev :smile2:

Graham :smile2:


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## Blizzard (Sep 21, 2009)

After reading each and every post so far, my lack of sleep pales in to insignificance compared to you all. I can attribute my last year to splitting up and all that entails, but since moving in to my own place in July, nothing has improved.

I have been using a FitBit wrist band for a while and to be honest, I don't think I would recommend it as it simply isn't accurate enough. Exercise wise, it picks up and counts hand movements as steps, therefore overestimates the number of steps you do in a day.

I leave it on during sleep to monitor my sleep times and again I find that it is not accurate. It is good at judging when I fall asleep, but if I wake up during the night and loads of stuff starts going through my mind, worrying about things I need to do the next day etc, but I deliberately stay inactive, the FitBit records such periods as being asleep.
If I get up to go to the loo, or toss and turn, it records restless or awake periods accordingly.

I'm fortunate that no matter how little sleep I get, I don't get tired and I can probably count on one hand the number of times that my alarm has woken me over the past 30 years. I dare not 'not' set it, but I'm never asleep long enough for it to go off.

I don't think working a variable shift pattern helps with regular sleep, but nightshift weeks tend to be my worst, as I can't stay asleep during the day, even with earplugs, eye masks, blackout curtains, morning night caps etc etc, and I usually end up going back to bed before work.

The following image is a typical period of 4 night shifts according to FitBit, which shows an average of 5 hours sleep a day. This is broken and very restless sleep, split in to 2 periods and I think is a massive overestimation of my actual average sleep.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Thanks for sharing this :smile2:

I know it sounds crass to say it but if you can work on some strategies to try and fix the broken sleep NOW before it gets a full time grip on you, all the better. My fear is that my patterns are so ingrained now that I may not break out of them.

As a starting point, maybe research some relaxation; breathing; and mindfulness techniques and see if they help you to relax enough to get back off to sleep gently. I thought they were mumbo jumbo but they really can help to relax, which might be all you need. I also use a technique to 'park' random thoughts as well...which also helps to relax.

Above all though please don't get too uptight about the sleep pattern (I'm not saying you are btw) as it can then become a self fulfilling prophesy.

...and do update us and feel very free to keep on contributing to this thread. One day we all hope to find, what could be a very small thing, which could help us with our sleep so your input is really valuable.

Good luck :smile2:


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## Blizzard (Sep 21, 2009)

Once I get away and settled in to a holiday, I find I get my best sleeps, so I'm hopeful that mine is just linked to a stressful job and of late, a stressful lifestyle.

I have 6 months before retiring and getting away from it all, but that itself is a constant thought in my head, sort of like a kiddy waiting for Xmas and not being able to sleep for the excitement ?

.....and on that work note it's shower and commute time !

Ken.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

There is a technique to 'park' thoughts but it takes practice and an be used alongside other techniques as I mentioned above.

When a random thought (or any thought ) pops into your head, acknowledge it and put it to one side...like "I see you thought about the sales meeting today but I'm parking you to one side". Then carry on with the relaxation/breathing/mindfulness techniques as mentioned.

I know it sounds like bollux but it can work:wink2:

Enjoy your commute..when I am in work mine is a tad over 1 mile :grin2:

Graham :smile2:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Yes, sleep is not just about the time that we go to bed. It is all about what else is going on in our lives and how well, or not, we are dealing with it.
The hypnotherapist I worked with pointed out that some people strive for perfection and that does not help us when dealing with trying to sleep. Just going with the flow and accepting what you achieve is helpful. She also pointed out that we are left with a lot of "stuff" from childhood that still bothers us today. A couple of mine are - always trying to be "good" and "responsible". These weigh heavily on the mind and, although not consciously, striving for them can be very stressful.


You will have to search and find out what demons it is that are disturbing your sleep and try to deal with them long term. One technique that I discounted as "stupid" for a long time was writing down what was troubling me at night. Just keep a pen and notepad by the bed and scribble down whatever is on your mind when you wake up. It really is helpful.


I am off for Reflexology today. It is amazingly good at identifying areas of the body that have "blockages" and releasing them. Also very relaxing


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

This week Liz hasn't had to work since Monday, so no imminent alarm to be aware of, new bed is soooooooooooo comfy, 2 days ago I turned off the projection clock, so no matter what time I wake I'm clueless as to the time, I know when 8am comes around if my eyes are open I can see the daylight through the blackout blinds, only got up 20 mins ago, same yesterday.

I still have the waking up for the loo then brain kicking in, but I think I may be better at licking it back out again.

We'll see tomorrow as it's an alarm day again, as will be Monday & Tuesday as Liz is back to work again, but then we're off on us jollies til the 22nd, heading darn Narfark way   for a change, dunno wot Scotland did wrong.


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## greygit (Apr 15, 2007)

Apparently a lot of MS suffers who try cannabis to ease their symptoms say that not only does it work but they also go on to say that they get the best night sleep they have ever had.........just saying.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> *I still have the waking up for the loo*...*but I think I may be better at licking it back out again.*


Unfortunate typo that one Kev









Graham :grin2:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

GMJ said:


> Unfortunate typo that one Kev
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oops    I like to lick the bowl out though, when Liz makes a cake   nowt like a bit of pudding in me lugs


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

8 oclock!!! Was goin on?? Whatever you're taking I want some! 1.30 am and 5 am (when I got up) last night. Can someone please put a cork in Chris's bladder as it was him that woke me at 1.30!


Seriously though, Kev, glad to hear that things are moving in the right direction for you. We like our zip and link bed too. Had some physio the other day and she mentioned the bed. I am up for any changes that are necessary to make life pain free but leave my bed alone! Well, actually, I just said "it is new and very expensive" so she dropped the subject.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Spensive ain't the word, Divan has a creak on it, which is like a thunderclap at silly am, so I rang to invoke the 12m warranty, Oh no you can only re-select or have a full refund, , anyway I convinced them that it was in their best interests to send someone out to fix it or else.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Glad you gave them a lesson in proper customer service!


The place we got ours from offer a service to come and turn the mattress every so often! Only when they are in the area, but blimey were we impressed! As we are fit and agile we declined. The salesman also gave us a discount because we rescued our dog from his favourite sanctuary


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Our memory foam doesn't budge an inch even when I do my whale flopping hurrumphing turns at night :grin2:

After my 11.40pm wake up the other night I got until around 4.00am the next night as I was exhausted (still disturbed but went back to sleep). The last 2 nights have been 3 on my scale so not great.:frown2:

I am now running down from 2 to 1 this week on the anti depressants before starting a new AD for week 2 (1 and 1) and then dropping the original AD for week 3. It could be a tough couple of weeks as I'm basically flying solo again:serious:

Oh well..Im getting loads of stuff put on Ebay though from 5.00 in the morning!:wink2:

Graham :smile2:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Sorry to hear about the sleep scores Graham  Your pockets should be happier though if you sell lots of stuff).


Had an amazing Reflexology session yesterday! I have been going for a couple of years and it has helped with lots of minor ailments such a sinus problems etc.


I suffer, on and off, with pains in my legs which we think are rooted in sciatica. Have had MRI scans and x-rays which just showed mild arthritis. These pains have been bad lately and, as pain killers do not touch it, I took myself off to the physio for some acupuncture and manipulation. She is on holiday this week so no top up acupuncture 


I did learn from her that the, milder, pains in my arm, the palm of my hand, eye socket and, interestingly, a tingling tongue sensation are all symptoms of nerves problems emanating from the spine!


The main pain starts in my pelvis, and moves down my legs to the soles of my feet, and Nicola, the reflexologist, found a trigger point in my heel that was very obvious. She worked on it and I could feel the pain dispersing as she did so! It was so amazing.


As pain is a sleep disruptor I thought I would share this experience in case it might help others.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Had a bloody awful night last night, Liz wants to redo our ensuite :roll: so we went to look at bathroom crap yesterday :roll: she liked the square stuff, I preferred the round stuff :roll: looked at shower enclosures, we saw some we could both live with, but we both like the look of the combination toilet/basin vanity units as we have bugger all storage in the for loo rolls etc, getting rid of the rad so need underfloor heating, going from over bath shower to enclosure, all means a total emptying of the bathroom, (we have another upstairs so no rush) so my mind eventually got around to trying to work out the logistics of me doing all the removal and prep work to keep the cost down to less insane levels.

So I need to get a new 75mm wide SDS chisel bit, & remove all the existing tiles, after cutting the 1800x800mm bath into segments so I can actually carry it out, smash the loo, bidet and basin etc so it can be easily carried to car and on to the dump, 3 trips at least I reckon, then fit the electrics etc for the heated floor and then tile the floor, then temp fit the shower enclosure to mark exactly where I need to tile to (measure twice tile once), prior to that I need to mark where the wall needs relieving for the shower feed pipes, then fill to be tiled over, ditto for loo, bidet and basin, prior to all that I need to re-seal the wall as I bet the previous sealing will come away with the tiles.

Then it's over to our tame plumber to fit it all, then box in any exposed pipes which will be minimal I hope & decorate whatever is left to be done.

Actually writing it down might turn it off in my mind.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

ahhh...but you love a project Kev :wink2:

I spoke with the quack yesterday so am now on 1 AD tablet for a week (down from 2); then will stay on 1 and phase another 1 in as well for a week; then I will be on a the new stand alone AD thereafter...

The next week could be the worse yet...brace yourself Graham :grin2:

Graham :smile2:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Right!! been doing an experiment and it's working, may not work for everyone but it's cheap and quite nice anyway.

For the last week I've been drinking mint tea jsut a the cheapo unbranded one from Asda, bladder seems to be better, (it lowers blood sugar as a side effect) sleeping is much improved 6 hours at one sitting a couple of times, bladder wakes me up, I seem to be a bit more alert too, deffo needed that.

Worth a try.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Sounds great Kev. 

What you ingest certainly can make a difference. 

I'd lunch in Cherbourg on Sunday before getting the boat home n had a last petit café - well, you have to, don't you? - at c. 3pm.

Then I'd an Americano on the boat c. 6pm.

Slept that night for about 2.5hrs then totally awake the rest of the night, my brain absolutely buzzing. 

I'll not do that again :-(


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I have drunk mint tea after lunch and after dinner, for its digestive properties, for years. Had no idea it lowered blood sugar.


How many cups are you drinking per day Kev?


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Still 'flying solo' on a reduced dose of AD's. A communication mix up between myself and the Dr has meant that I am now a week delayed in starting new tablets! I'll be picking them up today and starting them whilst phasing out the old ones! Sleep still pants!

Fingers crossed :smile2:

I have HR and the Faculty Head visiting me at home today for a chat....so that should be fun! :frown2:

Graham :serious:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Sorry to hear that sleep is still eluding you Graham  Hope the new meds help.


Fingers crossed the HR bod and your faculty head have an understanding of the effects that insomnia can have on one's life.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

patp said:


> Fingers crossed the HR bod and your faculty head have an understanding of the effects that insomnia can have on one's life.


...they will have once I've finished with them :grin2:

Thanks for the wishes

Graham :smile2:


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

The impending visit can't be helping your sleep problem. Maybe once that's past things will improve. Hope so!


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Thanks Jean

It was something and nothing really: in and out in 20 mins just checking up on me and seeing if my employer could do anything for me (aka...marking my card that they are watching me! :wink2

Graham :smile2:


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

That's good - relax now!


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Does anyone know if steroids can affect sleep?


The physio flagged up that I was taking steroids when I took my asthma inhaler. They worry over the effect of steroids on bone density. I told her that I have cut down the usage of it and this got me thinking about how much I needed to take it now. So I stopped. I am glad to say that my asthma is fine but, here is the interesting thing, my sleep has improved slightly. This caused me to remember a past time when I had forgotten to take my inhaler and had slept better that night.


Of course, if I have any asthma symptoms, I will take the inhaler. It is a combined preventer and reliever so I shall, perhaps, use it more as a reliever. Will discuss with the GP whether I need just a reliever now.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Good question Pat.

My wife takes an inhaler for her asthma but it doesn't seem to affect her sleep.

Not much help I'm afraid!

Graham :smile2:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

patp said:


> I have drunk mint tea after lunch and after dinner, for its digestive properties, for years. Had no idea it lowered blood sugar.
> 
> How many cups are you drinking per day Kev?


About 4-5 Pat depending on what else I drink, I'm averaging 2 nightly visits now as opposed to 4 or more.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

That's very interesting Kev.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

My turn not to sleep

Feel asleep but woke up a hour ago and couldn't get back to sleep

Can't be bothered reading as I don't feel relaxed, I think is in part because the house is such a mess, the van contents are everywhere and I seem to be moving them from one place to another

That and the fact I'm falling over washing 

It will get sorted but in the early hours everything looks worse than it turns out to be

Every worry is out of proportion

So I decided to getup and continue trying to organise it 

Sandra


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Oh no Sandra! Much as we like your company we would not want it at the expense of your sleep. 
Nothing worse than stuff lying about waiting to be sorted is there? What you need is a Mary Poppins to wave her wand and have it all sorted lickety split


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I can cope with mess, someone once said to me, housework expands to fill the time available, too right, do other stuff, housework will always be there even if you do it


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Well I managed to sort some stuff out

Went back to bed at 7 slept till 10.30

It's not housework Kev, I can't find the house!!!

So much stuff coming out of the van, and loads more to go

And I have two grandkids here staying so need some organisation as my usual storage spaces are no longer available

I'll get there

Just need the son to shine on the bedding hanging limply on the line

Sandra


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

I can sympathise Sandra - but I'm still putting it off!! Haven't even emptied the fridge yet :-( - but I do have it running on gas


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I find I just take some things out each day, Jean
Washing, bedding, tinned food it just goes on and on 
When it's eventually empty then it gets a good clean 
Meanwhile the house needs a good clean too
Imgoingto seal the pillows and bedding in vacuum bags along with cushions etc and keep them in the van this winter
Usually store them in the room that Megan's in but Im trying to empty all the wardrobes and cupboards for her stuff

I'll get there, it's time I sorted out excess bedding and table sets and sent them to the charity shop

Sandra


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

We moved to a much smaller place about a year and a half ago. I did a _lot_ of clearing out then.

It's good for the soul ?


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

My soul just isn't co operating Jean:frown2::serious :smile2::smile2:

Sandra:smile2:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

When we were thinking of downsizing we had a "Clearout Thursday" (the local tip opens on Fridays). I found it very therapeutic Trouble is we didn't move and I was a bit too enthusiastic. Now do not have a chest of drawers in the house  All small items are in boxes in bottom of wardrobes. Lots of other stuff went missing too  
House is so much easier to clean though


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Rubbish night again   6 times to the loo, only had 4 drinks all day too, fortunately went right back off again.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Not a good idea to limit fluid intake Kev. I find it has little to do with needing the loo anyway. There is almost always some other factor in play. A urinary tract infection or prostate problems for example.


Some years ago I found that limiting fluid intake was actually a contributing factor to my insomnia. I put it down to my body being short of fluid and waking me up so that I would drink something. An acupuncturist once told me that we should drink 2 glasses of water when we get up, two more before breakfast, two before lunch and two before dinner. This was in addition to any other drinks that we consume!


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I drink about 2 litres of water a day

Always mineral water as I like it and also because of the calcium, potassium etc it contains

Slept alright last night till cramp woke me at 7, could have fancied a bit longer 

Getting slowly organised in spite of the fact three older grandkids,one daughter ,plus Winston the hound descended yesterday tea time and all needed feeding, hound included

But we had a good laugh and Alex says it's good here because you two are not the age you should be!!

Complement or insult ??

Sandra


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

patp said:


> Not a good idea to limit fluid intake Kev. I find it has little to do with needing the loo anyway. There is almost always some other factor in play. A urinary tract infection or prostate problems for example.
> 
> Some years ago I found that limiting fluid intake was actually a contributing factor to my insomnia. I put it down to my body being short of fluid and waking me up so that I would drink something. An acupuncturist once told me that we should drink 2 glasses of water when we get up, two more before breakfast, two before lunch and two before dinner. This was in addition to any other drinks that we consume!


Something wrong with the thank button on this post Pat, clicked and it went but no thanks pooped up :roll:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

aldra said:


> I drink about 2 litres of water a day
> 
> Always mineral water as I like it and also because of the calcium, potassium etc it contains
> 
> ...


 Is magnesium deficiency implicated in cramp? You might like to check the mineral water to make sure it contains some and if not add it to your diet. Minerals do need to be balanced. We take a 50+ vitamin and mineral supplement and if Chris misses on or two he will get cramp.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I still favour salt and bananas for cramp, rarely get it anymore, and then only when I've had none of the above, salt should be limited to 6g per day, but I don't think we get near to that as we rarely eat processed food.

*
1500 mg of sodium amounts to 0.75 teaspoons or 3.75 grams of salt per day, while 2300 mg amounts to one teaspoon or 6 grams of salt per day. Most people today are eating much more than that. The average intake of sodium is about 3400 mg, most of it coming from processed foods.*

.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Well I've found my house under the chaos

Slept little but the house is now clean and ordered,lots of organisation

Emptying wardrobes, sending stuff to charity 

The van is still semi emptied 

I'm not sleeping, I'm worried about Alberts scan , and in the early hours I think the worse

And I haven't got peace around me

But it's getting there 

I need to have the calm that comes from the house organised , preferabally from the garden also organised

Then I can cope and enjoy the chaos of grandkids arriving , departing, eating , arguing , debating

I have my base firmly in place

Wish it didn't matter 

Sandra


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

So sorry to hear this Sandra. Have you read through this, very long, thread? Lots of tips and advice including a couple of excellent books on the subject.


One of the best tips I found, for anxiety, was to write all the worries down. I refused to do it for years. Various "therapists" and books recommended it but I just thought it was ridiculous. Eventually, in desperation, I thought I would try it. The effect was very marked on my sleep.


Once you stop sleeping you get tired. You start forgetting things and that makes you more anxious. You get more anxious because you worry that tonight will be another night without sleep, leaving you more tired, leaving you more forgetful....


Among the things you forget is to be kind to yourself. Perhaps your little family around you at the moment could come up with some "treat days" for you to look forward to? One I could suggest is a "Sandra does nothing all day" while the grandkids rally round.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

aldra said:


> Well I've found my house under the chaos
> 
> Slept little but the house is now clean and ordered,lots of organisation
> 
> ...


"Wish it didn't matter" it doesn't really Sandra.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

No but to me it does Kev

I really don't mind housework and find it easier when everything is in its place

I really don't mind not being able to sleep if the rest of life is in order, I just read, have an early start and an afternoon rest 

Worrying a bit as the scan draws near, it's how it is, and in the wee small hours worries get out of proportion 

So I find it more productive to get up and carry on organising 

All the van duvets, pillows, protectors etc tossed in the dryer and sealed into vacuum bags as this winter they will remain in the van, very satisfying sucking all the air out of pillows and duvets and seeing them flatten into "flat packs"!!

Doesn't take a lot to please me!!!!!

The garden is still full of flower including the hanging baskets and window boxes so too soon to put it to bed for the winter just yet although the host as have all turned to gold. Still have roses in bloom No one has told the fushia and begonias is winter
It really is a lovely time of year

Sandra


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Is anyone else dreading the clocks going back? I hate it anyway but that long night is something to be endured  All the Rip Van Winkles out there are delighted that they get an extra hour's sleep. Us insomniacs just wonder what we are going to do with that extra hour.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I love winter

Always have

I love a fire, closed curtains, cozying up

I don't need to get up for work so it doesn't really matter where or when I sleep or read

Only when I get anxious about Albert in the wee small hours

And I tell myself it's the the turn of the world when all is bleak

But for someone it really is 

So it doesn't help that much 

Sandra


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Can't say it's ever made any difference to me, I stay in bed the same amount of time if I can, and now we've got no nagging timepieces in the bedroom we let the light announce the daytime, or the alarm if Liz is working, or my bladder if not.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I'm up, anyone else?

I enjoy this period of the day before the rest of the house stirs

Slept very badly the night before last so had a very early night, last night, so although it's early I had had a good nights sleep by 4am

Hope you all have managed sleep ok 

Sandra


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I, too slept very badly the night before last. Last night slept til 3.40am. Got up, let the dog out, took sleeping pill, read for 20 mins then back to bed until 6 am.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Up & down again


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Just thought I would ask how everyone is getting on? Anyone made any major progress?


There was an article in the paper on Saturday by a "sleep guru". I think he knew less than me. His main focus was the blue light problem with many people using their devices and upsetting their daylight/nightime clock rhythm. Exercise was mentioned of course. No mention of the effects of alcohol. He believed that we sleep in 90 minute cycles. If you wake up then wait 90 minutes for the next cycle to come along. Not sure I have ever noticed that and what happened to the four hour sleep cycle?
Apparently we all need super king size beds even if it means getting rid of the bed side table. Mattress and pillows do not matter as long as you find them comfortable.
Curiously he was keen that we wake up slowly and do not reach for computer/phone. We need to allow 90 minutes to prepare slowly for our day. Not sure how that is going to affect sleep later on in the day? Power naps are fine.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I seem to be sleeping a bit better these days, not all night, but I'm getting to about 3am ish some nights now, we did away with any standby lights etc, got rid of the projection clock, we each have a digital watch on a button press if we need to know the time, we both still use tablets prior to nodding off, this is a recent thing for me, but it doesn't seem to bother my sleep patterns, my bladder seems to be the main cause of wakening, to that end I just ordered some of these to try after reading they were good, we also now have a superking bed now, with twin single 32cm thick mattresses, one soft, the other hard, Liz gets pins and needles in her hands for some reason too, I do occasionally.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Nope, still rubbish here.

I am still off work and they are on the verge of sacking me due to the prolonged absence. I have applied for ill health retirement so am waiting for my employer to submit the papers to the pension provider. The Dr agreed that I will struggle to teach again!

P1sser!

Graham :frown2:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Goodish news from Kev  not so good from Graham 


Kev, do get your necks looked at. I have had pins and needles in my hands and in my tongue (!) also an ache around my eye socket. Turned out that it was coming from my neck. Physio worked on it and I now go to Clinical Pilates classes, at her suggestion, to keep things ticking over.


I have always fallen asleep ok it is the 3am wake up that is still a problem. I now just get up and take a Zopiclone, read for a short while, and then go back to bed where I do fall asleep. My long term aim is to teach my body that when it goes to bed it goes to sleep. I had a short period after Christmas where I even dropped the Zopiclone and replaced it with Nytol and Co Codamol for a week or two. Now back to the Zopiclone but looking for a window when I may be able to drop it again.


Another article I read, by a chronic insomniac, cured herself by using Mindfulness. Many CBT counsellors are now recommending it. Chris and I try to have a post lunch nap where I use it relax me.


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