# Bio-Diesel-Has anyone used it?



## jamiealana (Nov 18, 2006)

Hi folks. Just to ask if any other member has made bio diesel, and put it in there motorhome,i have just bought instructions of the internet. for£3.50 to make all types of bio fuel . so went to tesco,s bought 5lts of rapeseed oil and added it to 10lts of diesel added 0.5lt of white spirit mixed it well.then put it it a diesel space heater in the garage and it burned smoke free with no fumes , so my next move is to put it in the motorhome and see how it goes thats a lot better than £1-12 a lt and it has zero emisions and you can make 2500lt before the excice man asks for 21p a gal, Alan


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: BIO-DIESEL*



jamiealana said:


> . . and it has zero emisions Alan


Hi Alan

Before you get flamed by some of the more aggressive "missionary" members among us, may I gently point out that this is patently not so.

It will produce emissions, but probably little or no more than ordinary diesel - though their composition will be different.

Regards


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## johng1974 (Jan 17, 2007)

hi Alan. 

It's my understanding that you can burn 2500 litres a year before informing mr B

that is the case with SVO (straight veg oil)

J


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

>> aggressive "missionary" members

So what is your position on this ?


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## jamiealana (Nov 18, 2006)

*BIO-DIESEL*

HI JOHN.I thought this would be a good topic ,with the cost of fuel and yes john i,v just read the part about making it with just the rapeseed oil or soya oil ang just a couple of additives to put in , but i think the majority of people here are quite happy to give there hard earned cash to to government in tax, well we do a lot of miles a year and anything to save out pennies is good for us :lol: and 2500lts is a lot of fuel and cash alan


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: BIO-DIESEL*



jamiealana said:


> I thought this would be a good topic


Do they claim this concoction if safe for modern high rail diesels ?

ISTR on Fifth Gear they chose an old mechanical Merc for testing chip fat because it was a mechanical injector.

But *anything* to keep our cash from those idiots in Whitehall is a_good_thing.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: Bio-Diesel It's half the cost of garage fuel.*



jamiealana said:


> Hi folks. Just to ask if any other member has made bio diesel, and put it in there motorhome,i have just bought instructions of the internet. for£3.50 to make all types of bio fuel . so went to tesco,s bought 5lts of rapeseed oil and added it to 10lts of diesel added 0.5lt of white spirit mixed it well.then put it it a diesel space heater in the garage and it burned smoke free with no fumes , so my next move is the motorhome and i have all the bumf to register with customns & excise for duty it comes in at 21p for 5lt so it works out at about 52p a lt to make legally thats a lot better than £1-12 a lt and it has zero emisions Alan


Hi again Alan

It's getting late and I've had the nightcap, so please correct me if my maths is haywire - but . . . .

10 litres of diesel @ £1-12/litre = £11.20
5 litres of rapeseed oil @ £1.65/litre = £8.25
0.5 litres of white spirit = about £1.00.

That comes to £20.45 for 15.5 litres of bio-fuel.

*Which works out at £1.32 per litre*, excluding the 21p tax

Am I missing something, or having a senile moment?


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

hilldweller said:


> >> aggressive "missionary" members
> 
> So what is your position on this ?


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Very droll - I like it. :lol:


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## johnandcharlie (May 2, 2007)

hilldweller said:


> aggressive "missionary" members


Does that include me .

There are problems with biodiesel. See here.

Growing crops for biofuels is one of the reasons for the big increase in food prices, and why charities working in the 3rd world are having to reduce their activities, because they can't afford the basics they need to keep people alive. There isn't enough arable land on the planet to feed 6 billion, and rising, people, and provide all the biofuels we all need to keep driving as we do now.

There are small scale producers making biodiesel from waste cooking oil, and this is fine as it's using a waste product. Fresh cooking oil has gone up in price due to increased demand, is taking land away from food crops, and resulting in deforestation to create more land for growing it.

It may be cheaper at the moment, but I don't think I'd like to rely on it staying that way, or being readily available. I think some supermarkets limit the amount of vegetable oil you can buy.


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## jamiealana (Nov 18, 2006)

*BIO-DIESEL*

hi hilldweller , the guy who i got this thing from on the net has a shogun and has done 47thousand miles with no problems no loss of power no smoke no smell of chips lol and the only thing he adds to the oil is (pure mineral oil) which can be purchased from most pharmacies it is baby oil but without the perfume . he adds 1+500ml bottle to 50lts of fuel and that lubricates the top end of his engine and this is even better than the fuel you buy from the garage well im making a batch and putting it in tomorrow so i,l be able to tell you first hand how it works when i get home ALAN


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: Bio-Diesel It's half the cost of garage fuel.*



Zebedee said:


> Am I missing something, or having a senile moment?


Houston we have a problem.

10l to 5l ratio means even free rapeseed is not going to make a terribly significant saving.

The other problem is what do you do for your next fill up ?


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## jamiealana (Nov 18, 2006)

*BIO FUEL*

HI jOHN you are quoting form a report from a goverment scientist well who pays his wages john and the point about the crops and 3rd world countries well when you fill your tank the next time john just think of all the stuff your putting into the air there is no eemotionsfrom FUEL MADE WITH RAPESEED OIL and i,mmaonly thinking i cant do anything about the 3rd world countries but a think by putting this fuel in my motor at least i am doing my little bit for the world instead of just reading and talking about it but when it comes down to it john you still put fuel in your motor and where do all the fumes go up the way well in my opinion john AND ONLY MY OPINION i think bio fuel will help so dent jump down my tonsils all you ego warriors :?: :rollS and i was only quoting one way to make it YOU can make it with just the rape seed oil and no diesel just a couple of additives then it has zero emisions


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: BIO FUEL*



jamiealana said:


> HI jOHN you are quoting form a report from a goverment scientist well who pays his wages john and the point about the crops and 3rd world contries well when you fill your tank the next time john just think of all the stuff your putting into the air there is no emisions from FUEL MADE WITH RAPESEED OIL and i,m only thinking i cant do anything about the 3rd world contries but a think by putting this fuel in my motor at least i am doing my little bit for the world instead of just reading and talking about it but when it comes down to it john you still put fuel in your motor and where do all the fumes go up the way well in my opinion john AND ONLY MY OPINION i think bio fuel will help so dont jump down my tonsils all you eco warriors :?: :roll:


I tried!!!!


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## jamiealana (Nov 18, 2006)

*BIO FUEL*

YOU tried zeb Do i start on monday lol i just want to no if anyone has tried it and how did they get on . GREENPEACE RULES LOL


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## johnandcharlie (May 2, 2007)

*Re: BIO FUEL*



jamiealana said:


> HI jOHN you are quoting form a report from a goverment scientist well who pays his wages john and the point about the crops and 3rd world countries well when you fill your tank the next time john just think of all the stuff your putting into the air there is no eemotionsfrom FUEL MADE WITH RAPESEED OIL and i,mmaonly thinking i cant do anything about the 3rd world countries but a think by putting this fuel in my motor at least i am doing my little bit for the world instead of just reading and talking about it but when it comes down to it john you still put fuel in your motor and where do all the fumes go up the way well in my opinion john AND ONLY MY OPINION i think bio fuel will help so dent jump down my tonsils all you ego warriors :?: :rollS and i was only quoting one way to make it YOU can make it with just the rape seed oil and no diesel just a couple of additives then it has zero emisions


I wasn't making an environmental argument, but an economic one, one of supply and demand. If a relatively small number of people are using biodiesel it may be cheaper, but as demand grows supply problems are likely to push the price up, and you can see this by the rise in cooking oil prices recently. I need to buy more to cook with, and I bet it will cost a lot more than the last litre I bought. I know better than to start environmental arguments around here :wink:


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## jamiealana (Nov 18, 2006)

*BIO-DIESEL*

HI JOHN i can see where your coming from mate after i posted this i thought God i bet i,v just upset all the eco peeps ,i just want to try and save some cash john that last budget there last week they said they would delay putting the fuel up till august then the next morning it was up nearly 8p there is only one winner john number 10 mate PS and hows charlie looks a cracking dog


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## duxdeluxe (Sep 2, 2007)

johnandcharlie said:


> Growing crops for biofuels is one of the reasons for the big increase in food prices, and why charities working in the 3rd world are having to reduce their activities, because they can't afford the basics they need to keep people alive. There isn't enough arable land on the planet to feed 6 billion, and rising, people, and provide all the biofuels we all need to keep driving as we do now.
> 
> There are small scale producers making biodiesel from waste cooking oil, and this is fine as it's using a waste product. Fresh cooking oil has gone up in price due to increased demand, is taking land away from food crops, and resulting in deforestation to create more land for growing it.
> 
> It may be cheaper at the moment, but I don't think I'd like to rely on it staying that way, or being readily available. I think some supermarkets limit the amount of vegetable oil you can buy.


The EU requirement for 2.5% and then 5% biofuels is just plain daft. The view above is 100% right. OK to use and process waste oil but otherwise........

Let's get one thing straight - biodiesel is NOT environmentally friendly. Just look at the destroyed forests in asia and brazil, transport costs, processing costs and make your own (informed) mind up

I personally would not use anything other than fuel from a recognised source in my engines - for the simple fact that they are designed (and they spend massive amounts of money in research) to run on fuel that meets EN590 spec for diesel, which is what you buy at the pumps. Run on used chip fat/whatever and your warranty is out of the window -yes they can tell (I'm in the fuel testing business) and probably all of your fuel system seals will deteriorate as well as a good clog up on a cold morning. Counter that with all the stories of people running vehicles for years (usually older ones) on processed waste oils.

It's a free country and everyone is entitled to their choice - it just is not one that I would make nor recommend to anyone.

Sorry for the rant


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

The only cost I haven't seen factored in is the cost of a new EGR valve once in a while.

All oil when burnt produces harmful emissions (even organic extra virgin olive oil).

I don't understand why you think that Prof Sir Robert Watson is a scientist taking orders just because he advises the government, that is taking conspiracy too far. Read instead this one if you like I don't think friends of the earth is a government department  >click for FOE<


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## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

jamieleana, if we ignore the possible environmental problems, and the possible damage to the engine issues, we still appear to have to overcome the financial disadvantages.

This the only winner here is the guy who is selling the instructions for £3.50, unless of course Zebedee's calculations are in error


Andrew


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## 109659 (Feb 2, 2008)

HI
interesting! Any saving??? would soon be lost if it ruined a new common rail dossal engine. Old diesels would run on almost anything , injectors etc on new versions are a very different matter.
Don


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## teckie (Feb 25, 2007)

My son-in-law started using Bio Diesel in his Nissan Van just to save a few coppers and after a few months the engine seized up !, and he has since spoke to several more people who have had problems using Bio Diesel..looks like something you use at your own risk !... He says you just have to remember that whatever vehicle you drive they were NOT designed to run on it !. 8O 


Teckie


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## jamiealana (Nov 18, 2006)

*BIO-DIESEL*

OH WELL . Looks like a bad idea then , looks like i,l just have to go down the nuclear road,or see if someone can build me a flux capacitator that runs on junk,or what about a sail, but i bet someone would come back moaning that they were not getting there fair share of sunlight. All i asked was if anyone had used it in there motorhomes and as usual not one person had used it,but plenty peeps had READ about all the negative things.that them upstairs want you to read,there is thousand of acres of prime rain forest burnt and sawed down every day,and do people do a lot about it YES they buy the wood and EVERY one of you buy the products that are made from the trees,and the other things that are being ripped out of the ground in those third world countries and where is the cash going for all those things is it planting food or building hospilals or schools for all those poor folks NOT a chance it,so lining the pockets of some people in that countries NO 10. OH and before i forget go out in the country and see all the fields that have nothing in them. And the farmers are getting huge payouts from those careing people in the EU that only care about them selfs and their huge salerys.You guys are moaning at the wrong person IE, ME. All i want to know is has anyone tried bio fuel , and as i see no one has.alan


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

*Re: BIO-DIESEL*



jamiealana said:


> OH WELL . Looks like a bad idea then , looks like i,l just have to go down the nuclear road,or see if someone can build me a flux capacitator that runs on junk,or what about a sail, but i bet someone would come back moaning that they were not getting there fair share of sunlight. All i asked was if anyone had used it in there motorhomes and as usual not one person had used it,but plenty peeps had READ about all the negative things.that them upstairs want you to read,there is thousand of acres of prime rain forest burnt and sawed down every day,and do people do a lot about it YES they buy the wood and EVERY one of you buy the products that are made from the trees,and the other things that are being ripped out of the ground in those third world countries and where is the cash going for all those things is it planting food or building hospilals or schools for all those poor folks NOT a chance it,so lining the pockets of some people in that countries NO 10. OH and before i fidget go out in the country and see all the fields that have nothing in them. And the farmers are getting huge payouts from those careing people in the EH that only care about them selfs and their huge salerys.You guys are moaning at the wrong person IE, ME. All i want to know is has anyone tried bio fuel , and as i see no one has.alan


Your stuff is really difficult to read have you thought about using the return key more often?

Right do a search on here use biodiesel and the post option it comes up with plenty.

If you go to the older entries (before people realised what it did to their warrantees) you will find plenty of 1st hand reports.


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## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

*Re: BIO-DIESEL*



jamiealana said:


> OH WELL . Looks like a bad idea then


I think that's a fair analysis

I notice the emphasis has moved to environmental issues rather than cost saving.

Andrew


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## jamiealana (Nov 18, 2006)

*Bio-Diesel .HAS ANYONE USED IT*

FRANK .Have you looked at your replies, you have just gave me. Sorry i,m not as computer literate as urself,BUT let me say you manage to read the parts that suit you , I see you didnt answer about the fatcats or the rain forests or any thing that really matters , but as you are so quick to answer about me not pressing my return key. All i was asking has anyone tried bio fuel . To the ones that managed to read my badly written posts , thank you. And Frank you must have been a dog of a school master in some previous life you will be sticking me in some corner with a pointed hat on next .NO WONDER A LOT OF PEOPLE DONT POST ON HERE.and the ones that do never get a straight anwser only critisized about not stroking their T,s and putting dots where they matter to you .Dont you realize it puts a lot of people off Frank incase you moan about the way they write their posts. WHO cares Frank only you mate, at least i try Alan


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Morning Alan

*It should be obvious from my comments last night that I was trying to avoid stirring up the trouble which was quite obviously likely to result from your post.*

But since you you have studiously avoided answering the several questions raised about your claims, may I quote you in order to throw in a few spanners, and ask you directly for your clarification?

_1). "guy who i got this thing from on the net"_ You found it on the net, so that means it is 100% genuine and has been subject to extensive validation and research to justify "_the guy's_" claims???? He might have been drinking the stuff for all you know - or something a little more mind-blowing!!!

2). "this guy" was *selling *the instructions!!! Of course the stuff is miraculous then. Did that not make you the weeniest bit suspicious??

3). _"I . . . put it it a diesel space heater in the garage and it burned smoke free with no fumes"_ Burning in a space heater is nothing like the same as "detonating" it due to the huge pressures generated in a diesel engine.

and _"it has zero emisions"_ This I'm afraid is complete nonsense. Of course it creates emissions. The fact that you can neither see nor smell (?) them doesn't mean they don't exist. (What's that stuff called that we are all breathing???)

4). I've had another look at my >>calculations<<  of the costs, and they still look correct to me. £1.32 per litre (without tax) doesn't even come close to your claim of 52 pence per litre - *which I notice you have now edited out of your original post, which unfortunately for you I quoted in full!.*

5). _"so dent jump down my tonsils all you ego warriors :?: "_ Ego warriors????? Was this a typo, or a deliberately snide dig at JohnandCharlie, whose post was as balanced and reasonable as his posts always are!!

6). _"YOU can make it with just the rape seed oil and no diesel just a couple of additives then it has zero emisions"_ Sorry, but once again this is complete nonsense.

7). AndroidGB said, _"This the only winner here is the guy who is selling the instructions for £3.50, unless of course Zebedee's calculations are in error "_ Are my calculations in error??

8.). _"OH WELL . Looks like a bad idea then , looks like i,l just have to go down the nuclear road,or see if someone can build me a flux capacitator that runs on junk,or what about a sail, but i bet someone would come back moaning that they were not getting there fair share of sunlight. All i asked was if anyone had used it in there motorhomes and as usual not one person had used it,but plenty peeps had READ about all the negative things.that them upstairs want you to read,there is thousand of acres of prime rain forest burnt and sawed down every day,and do people do a lot about it YES they buy the wood and EVERY one of you buy the products that are made from the trees,and the other things that are being ripped out of the ground in those third world countries and where is the cash going for all those things is it planting food or building hospilals or schools for all those poor folks NOT a chance it,so lining the pockets of some people in that countries NO 10. OH and before i forget go out in the country and see all the fields that have nothing in them. And the farmers are getting huge payouts from those careing people in the EU that only care about them selfs and their huge salerys.You guys are moaning at the wrong person IE, ME. All i want to know is has anyone tried bio fuel , and as i see no one has.alan"_

Very laudable I'm sure, albeit somewhat sanctimonious! But also quite hypocritical. You are the one who is thinking only of himself I'm afraid, as you freely admit on several occasions that your main motive is to save money.
As JohnandCharlie (and others) point out, it doesn't need many people to follow your lead and the world will be even deeper in the mire, and the worst effects by far will be felt in the Third World countries - precisely the ones you claim you are so concerned about in the quote above.

No. Sorry Alan - too many things don't add up, and I'm not referring to the maths now. I'm beginning to wonder if this was just a wind up???

And finally Alan, please "put your money where your mouth is" - as the old saying goes.This quote is from the attack you just made on Frank (not a wise move incidentally :roll: )

You said, _"NO WONDER A LOT OF PEOPLE DONT POST ON HERE.and the ones that do never get a straight anwser"_ so OK - let me have a straight answer please - there are enough questions to choose from here.

Edited for presentation only. I got told off for too much bold text.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

*Re: Bio-Diesel .HAS ANYONE USED IT*



jamiealana said:


> FRANK .Have you looked at your replies, you have just gave me. Sorry i,m not as computer literate as urself,BUT let me say you manage to read the parts that suit you , I see you didnt answer about the fatcats or the rain forests or any thing that really matters , but as you are so quick to answer about me not pressing my return key. All i was asking has anyone tried bio fuel . To the ones that managed to read my badly written posts , thank you. And Frank you must have been a dog of a school master in some previous life you will be sticking me in some corner with a pointed hat on next .NO WONDER A LOT OF PEOPLE DONT POST ON HERE.and the ones that do never get a straight anwser only critisized about not stroking their T,s and putting dots where they matter to you .Dont you realize it puts a lot of people off Frank incase you moan about the way they write their posts. WHO cares Frank only you mate, at least i try Alan


Your main point was is anyone using biofuels I have answered that.

Just because I choose not to be dragged into your other arguments doesn't make me abad person 

I promise you the return key isn't a difficult option which will mean more people will bother to read it.


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## ed786 (Aug 16, 2006)

*BIODIESEL*

"Biodiesel" usually refers to the product made from a chemical process involving vegetable oil (used or otherwise) and methanol. The vegetable oil is converted to a more volatile "methyl ester" product with glycerine as a by-product. This is probably safe when added to conventional diesel at low levels but as indicated previously would negate any warranties on the diesel engine if within a warranty period.

Ed


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: BIO-DIESEL*



jamiealana said:


> All i asked was if anyone had used it


First rule of computer forums: Never answer the question asked.

Second rule: If you must answer the question make sure it's a useless answer.

.........

Ninety ninth rule: Answer accurately and concisely.

Question: "Is the Windermere CC site any good ?"
Answer: "You can buy LPG in the M6 motorway".

Question: "Can you park in Dover docks ?"
Answer: "We always drive straight on the boat".

Question: "Is it Wednesday ?"
Answer: "Yes".


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## jamiealana (Nov 18, 2006)

*Bio-Diesel .HAS ANYONE USED IT*

well DAVE. I for one won,t be posting on here again, that wasn,t called for. And as for making an attack on your buddy. get a life .You just confirmed what i was saying about putting people off posting on here. You may have got a couple of words after ur name now but it doen,t give you any right to tear me apart in public. I,m just an ordiary guy maybe not as clever as you and your pal. but i for one dont think you are clever . the word that comes to my mind ,starts with a p and ends with a k. Lets see how long it take you and him to work that one out.lets just not forget if it wasn,t for us silly people who are not as clever as you pair paying our subscriptions you would not have your job to make a fool of people


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## badger (May 9, 2005)

Just to be clear.....I don't use bio diesel....nor will I unless the manufacturers of my engine of choice recommends it.

As far as cost saving goes, as I see it you would save only if you used a waste product, and the use of such a product had no adverse effects on your engine and consequently your pocket.

Where environmental issues are concerned, it is my opinion (just my opinion) that it is possible to *reduce* emissions using such a waste based fuel, but deforestation will take place whether we need the space for bio fuel raw materials or not. We all know that its happening, but it's happening for very many reasons not just agriculture. By the way please don't blame the paper industry as paper is mainly made from soft woods, and they are from sustainable forests (cut one plant 2) Incedently all you enviro techs, did you know it does more harm to the environment to produce recycled paper than virgin paper, so all these councils etc that insist that their leaflets etc are produced on recycled paper are doing the opposite to their intention.

Thats my serious stuff out of the way for another 12 months... :roll: :roll:


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## Suenliam (Mar 22, 2006)

Sorry jamiealana if that's the way you feel. However, this forum has a reputation for not degenerating into personal attackes on the posters. Dave and Frank (and John and Charlie) make their points calmly and do not challange the person who made them, only the points that were made. This is the reason I continue to read and post on here unlike other forums. 

If we are not computer literate (or literate in anything else come to that) I think it helpful to receive advice given gererously which will enable me to use the computer (or anything else) more appropriately and in the long run to my own better advantage. After that sentence think I will now receive advice on English composition :roll: 

Sue


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

I have used a from of bio-diesel in my Renault. This is an old fashioned indirect injection 'non-electronic' diesel engine.

It runs very well on even neat vegetable oil. It doesn't start well on it though. It really needs diesel to start when ambient temperature is low.

I have found it to be most satisfactory on up to about a 70/30 ratio of veg. oil to diesel.

I have just mixed vegetable oil with diesel at varying ratios: no other additives.

The '2,500 litres per year' rule applies to making biodiesel / using 'bio' vegetable oil. It does not, as I understand it, apply to adding illegal substances to the mix such as paraffin, turpentine / white spirit or anything else 'non-biological' that does not have the road fuel duty paid on it.

I found out all I needed to know about running 'bio-diesel' by researching the subject on various 'specific subject' web sites and forums. I didn't need to pay anyone £3.50.

I don't know anything much about using any type of bio-fuel in a more modern diesel than mine, except that I have the impression, from what I have read, that it could be problematic.

The warranty issue that some have mentioned will not of course apply if your vehicle is not under warranty: mine most certainly is not.

Everything that I have written should be construed as my opinion given freely with the intention of furthering the discussion and with no intention of being drawn into an O.a. A style war.  

Harvey


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: Bio-Diesel .HAS ANYONE USED IT*



jamiealana said:


> well DAVE. I for one won,t be posting on here again, that wasn,t called for.


It wasn't. I guess his wife has a headache.

Don't be put off, you're next question might not hit so many raw nerves round here.


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

Just an addition to my previous post.

My 'van always struggles a little with the emissions test at M.O.T. time. They have to try it a few times to pass it.

At my last M.O.T. test a few weeks ago I had about a 70/30 ratio of veg. oil to diesel ...... exactly the same result with the emissions test!

Harvey


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: Bio-Diesel .HAS ANYONE USED IT*



jamiealana said:


> well DAVE. I for one won,t be posting on here again, that wasn,t called for. And as for making an attack on your buddy. get a life .You just confirmed what i was saying about putting people off posting on here. You may have got a couple of words after ur name now but it doen,t give you any right to tear me apart in public. I,m just an ordiary guy maybe not as clever as you and your pal. but i for one dont think you are clever . the word that comes to my mind ,starts with a p and ends with a k. Lets see how long it take you and him to work that one out.lets just not forget if it wasn,t for us silly people who are not as clever as you pair paying our subscriptions you would not have your job to make a fool of people


Sorry you are taking it that way Alan.

I clearly wasn't attacking you personally - unless you deliberately choose take it that way. I did exactly the same as you and simply asked for clarification on a few questions.

If my final riposte was a bit sharp it was entirely provoked by your attack on Frank when you accused him and the rest of the members with, "_the ones that do never get a straight anwser only critisized about not stroking their T,s and putting dots where they matter to you _"

All I did was ask you to answer a few points which your original post raised. That wasn't a personal attack nor did it "tear you apart in public".

If I had been guilty of that I would have received a strongly worded warning from the Mods by now - which is what makes this such a good forum. Members are not allowed to make personal attacks on here, and fortunately very few ever transgress.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

*Re: Bio-Diesel .HAS ANYONE USED IT*



hilldweller said:


> jamiealana said:
> 
> 
> > well DAVE. I for one won,t be posting on here again, that wasn,t called for.
> ...


and next time hilldweller will provide you with his free paragraphing service  >see this and next post<


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

*Re: Bio-Diesel .HAS ANYONE USED IT*



Zebedee said:


> jamiealana said:
> 
> 
> > well DAVE. I for one won,t be posting on here again, that wasn,t called for. And as for making an attack on your buddy. get a life .You just confirmed what i was saying about putting people off posting on here. You may have got a couple of words after ur name now but it doen,t give you any right to tear me apart in public. I,m just an ordiary guy maybe not as clever as you and your pal. but i for one dont think you are clever . the word that comes to my mind ,starts with a p and ends with a k. Lets see how long it take you and him to work that one out.lets just not forget if it wasn,t for us silly people who are not as clever as you pair paying our subscriptions you would not have your job to make a fool of people
> ...


I didn't think it was mod worthy until I saw him accusing us of being pals  anyone want a link to our arguments?


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: Bio-Diesel .HAS ANYONE USED IT*



sallytrafic said:


> I didn't think it was mod worthy until I saw him accusing us of being pals  anyone want a link to our arguments?


Quite so Frank - we don't always see eye to eye do we! :?

That's not to say we won't be great pals if we are fortunate enough to meet, as I feel we fully respect each other's differing viewpoints and both enjoy searching for the truth.

Apart from the occasional mention of a motorhome, that's what makes this forum such fun.


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

*BIODIESEL PROBLEMS*

The firm I do a bit of work for build industrial tractors, the sort of things you see at airports carting luggage away from the planes etc. Some are all Electric and some are hybrid with VW engines. Also they manufacture engine powered fork lift trucks. Again with VW or Magrius Deutz engines.
The engine suppliers advise us of the limited warranty period should bio diesel be used (and they can find this out by looking at a knackered engine ECU and other components) High pressure pumps and other parts of the fuel system do not fare well with bio diesel and some of the seals are damaged by the additives put into bio diesel to make it work.
The recommendation is that engines running on bio diesel are totally dismantled before 90,000 miles and re-built with a raft of new bits.
No one yet builds an engine in volume intended for bio diesel.

On the other hand old engines without common rail injection will run on most oils if the viscosity is about right.

So take care.


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## 110886 (Mar 26, 2008)

*BioDiesel*

There are some things you should know before you commit your self to
biodiesel.
One is you need to use a mix. Problem starting in cold weather.
If the weather gets to cold you may need to ad some petrol to 
your mix.
Another annoyance is the aroma. 
The exhaust from a motor burning biodiesel has a different 
aroma which I found objectionable. And it gets in your clothes
so people quickly know if you have been burning biodiesel or
not. The biodiesel that I used came from "reps" seeds.
It's sorta objectionable like the second hand smell of mustard, 
or garlic.
I just thought you would want to know

warp4dennis


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

*Re: BIODIESEL PROBLEMS*



CliveMott said:


> On the other hand old engines without common rail injection will run on most oils if the viscosity is about right.
> 
> So take care.


My inexpert opinion is that this is about spot on : The Diesel engine was designed to run on anything that would combust under compression.

'Diesel Fuel' was designed to be used in Diesel engines.

Modern Diesel engines are designed to run on 'Diesel Fuel'.

I am quite happy with using 'bio' in my Renault but would be very wary about dobbibg it in the tank of a new 'van.

Btw, about ten to twelve years ago, Reading Buses experimented with running their buses on rape seed oil. The whole town smelled of it. They did it for several months to a year or so but then reverted to Diesel.

I am unsure of the exact reasons but I think that it was because it was not commercially viable rather than having any technical problems.

Oh! and the Basingstoke Shuttle Bus is just switching to run on bio.

Harvey


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## johnandcharlie (May 2, 2007)

Looks like I missed all the excitement while I was moving on yesterday!

I haven't had any practical experience of biodiesel yet, but have looked into it a bit.

The options I've thought about are biodiesel made from waste cooking oil by, as far as I know, smallish local businesses. This can be used in unmodified diesel engines, but I get the impression that it's not a good idea in the latest engines because of all the hi-tech stuff in them. There were bulk buying schemes being set up around where I used to live. I would have joined one of these if I still had a home, but it's not practical as I'm fulltiming. I would want to buy from a tested, reliable source, rather than buying anything I can find wherever I happen to be.

You can spend around £1,000 having the engine modified to run on 100% vegetable oil from the supermarket, either in a separate tank to the conventional diesel, or mixed in any ratio in a single tank. The supplier who looked at my van said a single tank would be OK. Ignoring any environmental, exploiting the 3rd world etc arguments, the price of vegetable oil has increased a lot recently, and will keep increasing as demand for using it as a biofuel rises, so on top of a £1k conversion cost probably means it's not cost effective. I also understand that supermarkets limit the amount you can buy at one time, making it a real pain to buy.

Any options in between these, including DIY creations, may be fine on an old car worth a few hundred or thousand pounds, but I'd need a lot of convincing that it's worth risking in a motorhome costing an arm and a leg.


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## 101405 (Oct 15, 2006)

*bio*

I use it a lot , buy it at local filling station same price as normal gasoil .

unless you have an older heavy oil engine .which you can use veg oil in but will smoke a bit . you can only use filling station bio-diesel in modern engines. if you make it yourself it will cost you to get rid of the bi-product
as its a hazard.


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## 97734 (Feb 16, 2006)

God this is hilarious - is there any chance of there being informed or reasoned debate on a subject that could have been interesting and informative instead of a whole load of emotive outbursts.

The argument for and against bio diesel is not just perpetuated by government scientists - its exists amongs us mere mortals as well. I can see that growing crops to produce fuel might be a good idea if it only used land that was already in use for crop production and as long as it was not at the expense of the food crops that are needed to feed us and the animal population.

As for literacy - least said soonest mended but to my way of thinking an argument is better made when it can be read and understood.

So, is biodiesel useful or not? Personally, I doubt it - i think its being used as a marketing tool by certain car makers, politicians and ill informed environmentalists to make themselves feel better. Long term, its unlikely to be a sustainable fuel source.


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## ICDSUN (Oct 10, 2006)

Alan

This is an exert from a post on a caravan forum, It is a lengthy read but very informative to the lay person, the author is I believe involved in someway with testing and proofing of oils and fuels for DIN standards, I know that he has access to a variety of facts and figures etc with regard to these type of fuels, this should answer a lot of questions for you and others contemplating the use of various alternative fuels, his last point would seem to reflect what is so wonderful about the www. :roll: 

****
Have I driven one of my own cars on straight vegetable oil? No, bio-diesel, yes, and I've organised and participated in the bio-diesel and SVO trials that currently define the DIN standard and will become the UK standard. After millions of km and years of trials we now have a very good understanding of the specifications required to meet manufacturer specifications, and the way ahead.

You're obviously familiar with the different vegetable oils; like rape seed (called Canola in the USA), palm, sunflower, peanut, etc. And to help understand the differences between the various oils, you do need to know a little about the structure of each oil - the oil molecule looks like a letter E where the vertical l is a molecule of glycerol, and each of the three horizontal bars _ is a fatty acid bound to the glycerol backbone.

Each oil is different because the fatty oils are different - they range in chain length (the number of carbon atoms) and if the chains are saturated, mono-unsaturated or poly-unsaturated. You've seen this reference to saturated and unsaturated fats on tubs of margarine in the shops, but rather than the different health properties; for fuel and shelf-life purposes you need to know that unsaturated means "unstable" and they tend to go rancid or form gums much faster than oils made (by the plants) from saturated fatty acids.

The chain length of the fatty acid has a direct relationship to the ease of vaporisation - short chain means better operation in the cold - like Propane vs Butane in winter camping - and soya oil has shorter chains than rape seed or any of the other oils. Choosing a short chain oil like soya will mean easier operation in the winter.

For fuel purposes, clean, pure but untreated veg oil is normally known as SVO - straight vegetable oil

The difficulty of using SVO in a diesel engine is that the SVO doesn't spray and vaporise properly in a cold diesel engine, but will function correctly in a hot engine - preheating is a possibility, but you really need SVO fuel temperatures above 150C to get the viscosity right. Some people blend SVO with petroleum diesel, and unless you can easily get soya oil, 25% rape seed to 75% diesel is a sensible blend for winter use. Note to others: Blends of SVO and diesel are prohibited in modern CDI or TDI engines - the viscosity is still too high for the modern high pressure pumps.

So how do you use SVO in a modern car engine? By stripping off the glycerol backbone and reacting the now free fatty acids with methyl alcohol. This is easy "home cooking" - mix SVO with caustic soda (Sodium Hydroxide) and methyl alcohol (Methanol), heat to 70C for an hour or two, and pour off the "Fatty Acid Methyl Ester" - and it is this that is known as bio-diesel.

The glycerol is run off as waste (it can be burnt in oil fired central heating) and it's no bad thing to see it lost - it's a major cause of engine gum in cars run on SVO

In terms of vaporisation properties, bio-diesel made from rape seed oil is almost identical to standard petroleum diesel, soya based bio-diesel has better winter vaporisation, and the "harder oils" like palm are perhaps best dedicated to summer use.

Solvent properties
I'm sure you're familiar with phrases such as "like dissolves like" - for instance, water and alcohols will dissolve one into the other in any proportions - like whisky and water.

SVO is an "oil" and will dissolve quite well in diesel, but if any water is present will form an emulsion (like Ouzo or Pastis mixed with water - the oils are thrown out of solution, making the drink cloudy) - as they say, oil and water don't mix. If you look up the solvent properties of SVO and diesel in a data book, they are similar and we're only talking minor differences, and really if the crud won't shift in diesel, it won't shift with SVO. But actually SVO is more miscible with water than diesel, so any water soluble crud in the tank will tend to be flushed into the filter - and something like cloudy Ouzo is on it's way to the filter.

Bio-diesel has the same "functional group" as Acetone (the nail varnish remover that is the subject of this thread), but it's a much heavier and less volatile member - but will easily strip lacquers and resins from fuel lines just like Acetone will instantly remove nail varnish.

So, filling the tank with pure bio-diesel or any mix above 25%, it has a very aggressive solvent action on the tank, fuel lines, etc., and any dissolved resins - this really will clean out any water soluble, petroleum soluble or dried on resins and waxes. 

The difference between SVO and bio-diesel is really significant - if someone was wearing nail varnish, dipping their fingers in cooking oil won't do them any harm - dip those same nails in an ester, and the expensive nail job will be instantly gone.

The confusion has arisen because people (on a number of forums) incorrectly call veg oil bio-diesel (when they wouldn't confuse petrol with diesel), maybe their thinking is along the lines "it's a fuel from plants so it must be bio-diesel?" Then the real properties of bio-diesel become blurred with SVO by the Internet...

Robert
****

So now you have a hefty chunk of info to help you make a decision
Chris


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## 93309 (May 1, 2005)

hi jamiealana
We have a 97 iveco 2.8 turbo diesel and use cleaned used chip oil and we noticed there was an improvment in power and a good saving on our pocket we us a 50 50 mix and are on our 9th tank full.
We have no problem with starting.
The oil cost us £6 for 20 litres. It is going so well we have justbought a lager 115 litre fuel tank to do longer ditance and add more oil, during the warmer weather i know people using 70% oil to 30% diesel thats a great saving.
In my opinion go for it
Regards
veralin


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## 103279 (Mar 5, 2007)

This doesn't really answer the question but my brother owns a garage, is a fully qualified mechanic and has been fixing cars for the last 34 years. I asked him about bio diesel etc some time ago. 

His answers: Do not use bio if your vehicle is still under warranty because it may invaildate any claim, also many manufacturers state in their small print - or in the case of my Landrover Defender in very bold print - NOT to use bio diesel. In about the last year, my brother has had a few vehicles in for repair with damaged seals, clogged fuel filters and two where the fuel pump drive has sheared off due to the higher viscosity of bio.

Have a good look at the internet, there is some useful stuff and some very dodgy stuff.

Forgot to add that in most of the above problems 100% recycled or a diesel/veg mix were used.


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## 105507 (Jun 29, 2007)

*Re: BIO-DIESEL*

Modern engines would certainly not last long with this concoction.
It is not biodiesel.
In fact white spirit is not licensed as a road fuel so it is illegal to put it in your vehicle.
Biodiesel involves processing the svo/wvo using some fairly nasty chemicals. But it can be done at home with the right equipment.

Well made bio should have no problem in almost any vehicle but even if you buy it from a proffesional supplier there are no standards enforced so it really is buyer beware.

If you are really interested there are some good forums on the subject probably the best in the UK is:
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk

Like most things in life if your gonna do it,do it right. Or in this case risk your pump ,engine or maybe vehicle.

All the best with your quest my homebrewing is just about to start.
Mike



hilldweller said:


> jamiealana said:
> 
> 
> > I thought this would be a good topic
> ...


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## 105507 (Jun 29, 2007)

*Re: bio*



silversurfa said:


> I use it a lot , buy it at local filling station same price as normal gasoil .
> 
> unless you have an older heavy oil engine .which you can use veg oil in but will smoke a bit . you can only use filling station bio-diesel in modern engines. if you make it yourself it will cost you to get rid of the bi-product
> as its a hazard.


What is this hazardous by product of bio diesel manufacture that you have to pay to get rid of then?


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## Gonewiththewind (Nov 17, 2007)

I love these puritans that condem what they have never tried. Have you ever noticed that its always "someone told me". Try it and have first hand knowledge.
I have run a varied makes of vehicles on vegy oil. Any thing from neat in the summer to 50% in the winter. Yes have had a couple of problems , but nothing death defying. 1992 Peugeot, change fuel pipes from rubber. 

After first tank, change fuel filter, no its not the vegy oils fault, well it is, It is such a good cleanser that it losens all the old addatives that are left behind from Diesel.
I am at presant runnung my boxer MH the same way. you can always tell when I am in the area. I smell of sweet Doughnuts. dont know why.

And for the mathmatic geniouses Veg oil at the mment is just under the pound per litre. And my local Bio-Diesel supplier said he will maintain a 30p difference bellow diesel pump prices.


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## 106916 (Sep 8, 2007)

badger said:


> J Incedently all you enviro techs, did you know it does more harm to the environment to produce recycled paper than virgin paper, so all these councils etc that insist that their leaflets etc are produced on recycled paper are doing the opposite to their intention.


This is ill informed opinion - see this link from our website for an informed discussion:
http://www.bigskyprint.com/environmental-printing.html


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## ksebruce (Nov 5, 2006)

Thing that worries me about bio diesel is the amount of crops being diverted to this. In some measure this is pushing up food prices, contributing to food shortages and deforestation to plant crops for bio fuels.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

One of my customers recently gave me a list of products which may be detimental to the plastic components that he manufactures.
One of them is rape seed oil and other vegetable oils when heated to 60deg c
So beware 
See how the price of diesel has gone up since the begining of this post.
Rip off Britain
Dave P


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## alunj (Sep 5, 2007)

1) veg oil + white spirit is not BIODiesel
2) VW warranty my T5 174 hp to run on B100 thats 100% biodiesel

to answer the question , yes I use "real " biodiesel
I make it my self and it costs approx 15p/l
I only ever use waste cooking oil so it recycles something that otherwise would be landfilled. The tree felling/food use has been done so no worries there

VW T5 number 1 2003 B100 from approx 20k miles now has 80k miles no issues
VW T5 number 2 2005 B100 from new no dino at all 56k miles no issues

Merc sprinter 416 (hymer B680 Starline 2002) running B100 since November no issues other that 1 fuel filter needing replacement this is normal after a life of Dino ad changing to B100


If you value your engine DO NOT use plain old veg oil or odd mixes with white spirit, If you dont have trouble now you will later.


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## Patrick_Phillips (Aug 17, 2006)

Rudolph Diesel designed his engine to run on straight peanut oil - the mineral version came later. The problem you may get after a good many miles is the build up of glycerine in the jets. Not a major problem in older non-common rail engines with a good (Bosch) pump but can cause serious problems with newer engines. Your engine manufacturer will tell you if your engine is OK. 
In Wales, the supermarkets will tell the Customs people if you buy unusually large amounts of veg oil. 8O


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