# Engine problem? What should I do?



## barryd

Hi All

the van (swift kontiki Peugeot boxer 2.5td, 1996) is playing up.

We are In the lakes for Christmas and new year. Yesterday when heading to wast water I noticed a slight misfire or lack of power on occassion, mainly when going up hills or accelerating under load. The van has just had a major service. For about six months it's been starting badly like it's only firing on two cylenders and kicking out a lot of smoke. After 30 seconds or so it's fine and has driven perfectly until now. I suggested to the garage that it might need new glow plugs but they said they were fine and I think they said it might be an injector or something not ionisng properly?

It did this a couple of years ago and they changed i think the air or fuel filter and it stopped missing and was fine.

We were going wildng near crommock water but I was worried about breaking down on narrow roads so have jumped onto a CL near the a66 and cockermouth.

I don't know if I should just leave it until we go home later next weekend, go home early, find a garage, call the Aa or just give it the Basil Faulty treatment (a damed good thrashing)

would have to be new years eve of course.

We have the scooter so not exactly stranded

thanks in anticipation!

Barry


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## CliveMott

One guess could be an air leak in the fuel system, perhaps downside of the fuel pump. Maybe its the gasket on the fuel pump filter bowl. Make sure your mobile is charged as it could be a bugger to start!

Take care

c.


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## 747

Hi Barry,

Just got home and read your post.

There is a website called garage finder. They list a number of garages in cockermouth but no detail on Fiat garages. I have checked my Fiat service book and they list no dealers in the area. 

Sorry that I cannot be of more help but somebody local might give you better info. Just get smashed tonight and forget about it.

Regards

Jim.


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## ozwhit

barry as clive suggested fuel filter leaking air in , or dodgy injector , maybe try some injector cleaner , whats your mileage btw . gary


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## loddy

Sorry Barry too far away to be of any help, needs a Garage I think

Loddy :wink:


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## erneboy

Not easy to diagnose long distance Barry. It might go 1000 miles or 10 feet. 

It is almost certainly fuel related.

Sorry I can't be more encouraging.

There are a few basic things you could try if you are at all mechanical and have a few tools, but I guess if you were you wouldn't be asking.

I would remove or disconnect the air filter and see if it improves. What colour is the smoke? Alan.


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## barryd

Thanks all.

The smoke is a white grey with a hint of blue. Garage said it's diesel and nothing to worry about. It was like that starting most of the summer but never missed a beat when running until now. Mileage is just 62k.

I think I might just book a couple of Cl sites nearby and consider driving home at the end o the week or finding a local garage in keswick or somewhere. It's mrs d's birthday on the third which is probably the first day they will be open again and I don't suppose she will want to spend it looking for a garage.

If I is just fuel related, what's the worse that will happen if I keep using it? From keswick it's only 65 miles home.

If it's just a case of it eventually conking out I'll risk it but could I be doing long term damage if it's just fuel starvation? 

I know it's like asking you to look in a crystal ball.

Cheers
bd


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## CurlyBoy

This site has some useful info..

http://www.dieseljones.co.uk/troubleshoot-a-diesel-engine.html

hope it helps.

curlyboy


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## ched999uk

One great thing with diesel is that there is no such thing as a lean mixture! Fuel starvation will only effect power. 

If it has been kicking out excessive diesel then it may well be an injector. I don't know if your engine is direct or indirect injection but to me it sounds like an injector is on it's way out. Basically the nozzles get partially blocked and then the spray pattern is effected. This means that the fuel isn't in a nice mist and has big droplets that may not be combusting properly. I know diesels are not effected as much as petrols on atomisation of fuel but a poor spray pattern from an injector will lead to an increase in smoke from the exhaust.

I would have a look under bonnet and see if you can see any fuel leaks (might indicate air leak in fuel line) in all fuel lines to and from pump, on returns from injectors (leak back), and check for air leaks on air filter and all air hoses.

If it were me I would try and get some injector cleaner for fuel tank and enjoy your trip. Then when convenient take it to a diesel specialist to check injectors etc.

Good Luck.


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## drcotts

Hi Bary

The fact that its just has a service might be relevant. check the air filter clips and associated air intake hoses for loose clips and places where air can get in. If it does it debalances the turbo and it shuts down.

Did you notice any warning lights?

You might need to have it put on an analyser tuner to see if theres anything misfiring etc.


Phill


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## erneboy

ched999uk said:


> One great thing with diesel is that there is no such thing as a lean mixture! Fuel starvation will only effect power.
> Good Luck.


I agree largely Ched, but you forgot to say that it could also cause the engine to stop and not start again. You can be fairly sure that if it does stop it will be in the most inconvenient place. 1000 miles or 10ft who knows, Alan.


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## CliveMott

I was also going to suggest turbo or intercooler hose got soft and blowing off. This results in significant lack of power, lots of black smoke mixed with lots of white unburnt fuel vapour. Could that fit what you have?

A buggered injector woul give the same problem all the time. 

Air leaks give spasmodic and intermittent problems plus make starting a sod sometimes.

C.


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## eurajohn

Barry, one of my previous vans (2.5TD) had the same problem after I serviced it (I am properly qualified to do so) I eventually traced it to the fuel filter leaking air into, not fuel out of, at the time I found that it was a well known problem I only managed to cure it fully with a new fuel filter housing assembly complete.

You say the garage checked and found the heater plugs OK if that is the case I would suggest that the most likely problem you've had for a while was the injectors being less than fully efficient but that would not explain your latest problem, which I would think filter housing related. Two of the four heater plugs are easy to change one other is a little akward and the fourth one is an absolute b******d although having said that it is not uncommon for them to be corroded in, if that's the case they will all be very difficult.

Yours is not a common rail so if it does need injectors it will not be horrendously expensive, diesels are VERY sensitive to correct spray pattern especially on cold start.


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## Fatalhud

One Forum suggests checking the wiring to the injectors, says they are prone to bad connections, Might be worth a look
Alan H


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## eurajohn

Alan H only relevant if it were a common rail engine, which it isn't.


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## sparky20006

Hi Barry

don't forget the motorhomenetwork I started a while back !!

If you head south past me(near Glossop SK14) and it starts coughing and you get in the mire feel free to call me on 07963 161 303

Im not a mechanic but I can run you around locally if needs be.

Paul.

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## Fatalhud

eurajohn said:


> Alan H only relevant if it were a common rail engine, which it isn't.


Oops sorry  
must learn to read all of the OP

Alan H


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## Sideways86

*hi*

There is a very competent Fiat garage in keswick I think they are called Lakeland motors

I am with the air leak theory check all lines and clips fpor tightness, fuel filter etc

Good luck


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## marionandrob

Check the air hoses on the turbocharger are pushed on properly and the clips are done up nice and tight.
Had this the other year while in Spain, diagnosed by a fellow camper (mechanic) He said the slight whistle from under the bonnet was characteristic of a loose turbo hose and he was right.
Instant cure for slight sluggishness, starting problems and slight smell of unburnt diesel in the exhaust.


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## cunny

They are Keswick motor company Fiat dealers. 017687 72064.


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## barryd

Thanks all.

The smoke is a white grey with a hint of blue. Garage said it's diesel and nothing to worry about. It was like that starting most of the summer but never missed a beat when running until now. Mileage is just 62k.

I think I might just book a couple of Cl sites nearby and consider driving home at the end o the week or finding a local garage in keswick or somewhere. It's mrs d's birthday on the third which is probably the first day they will be open again and I don't suppose she will want to spend it looking for a garage.

If I is just fuel related, what's the worse that will happen if I keep using it? From keswick it's only 65 miles home.

If it's just a case of it eventually conking out I'll risk it but could I be doing long term damage if it's just fuel starvation? 

I know it's like asking you to look in a crystal ball.

Cheers
bd


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## erneboy

Very unlikely to do damage Barry, Alan.


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## barryd

Thanks for all the replies. I somehow missed a lot of them. 

I can't be sure but now you mention it I may have heard a whistle before so maybe something is loose. Hope it's not expensive as it's just cost me £750 for service, tyre and brakes and £1400 for an internal refit and to cure some damp! 

We had to pop out on the bike but will check in the light in the morning for hoses etc. Not sure where rlthe turbo is but will just look for anything with a hose attached and see if I can open an put back the air filter.

Thanks for the offer of help Paul.

We have booked another Cl 10 miles down the road for two nights and then another near keswick 10 miles after that so may give the garage you have told me about a ring on the third (assuming I haven't fixed it myself lol)

mrs d has declared new years eve alcohol free as she wants an early start, I have to fix the van and she wants to go walking ! Crap day. I give up.


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## spatz1

erneboy said:


> Very unlikely to do damage Barry, Alan.


you ve never owned a renault megane diesel then, well documented fault developing if theres a lack of fuel which lubricates the injection pump :lol: :lol:


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## teensvan

Hi.

One other little fault that can blight a diesel is low compression. Low compression means not enough heat is generated in the cylinder head to ignight the fuel when cold. I did have a very similar fault on one of my boat diesels. After going down the route of injector problems leaking fuel lines water in fuel it came down to low compression on 2 cylinders. 

The fault was pitted valve seats.

Go to a good diesel specialist and get a compression test done.

You can do this yourself but you must get the correct tester. The tester usually fits where the glow plugs fit in.

steve & ann. ------------ teensvan


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## barryd

Thanks again

I'm not sure I'm up to doing my own compression test though.


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## barryd

Had a look under the bonnet this morning. Scratched my head a bit then checked all the hoses. They all look fine to me but what so I know.

I removed the aire filter and it looks new (well it should be) I'm not sure however if it was housed right as when I put the lid back on there is one sticky out lip that lines up the cover and fits into a hole on the cover, then three clips keep it shut. I'm sure it's gone back in a different position so maybe it wasn't on right.

Two of the clips however are not very tight when fastened.

Last time this happened though this is what they changed and two minutes later it was fine.

Surely it can't be the aire filter though. What difference would it make if the lid wasn't quite on right?

Will be firing her up in an hour or so. Ten miles to next stop, let's hope we are not spending new years day on the a66


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## aircool

Smoking under load or at idle?

If its starting fine then compression is adequate.


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## barryd

The only smoke is when it starts up or is cold when setting off. After a few min it's fine. Haven't noticed any smoke recently either when it's been playng up


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## motormouth

Barry
Sounds as if your big end has developed a leak. I would get a blooming big hammer and give it a good beating. :lol: :lol: 

Seriously, hope you get sorted or get home safely. What's so wrong with staying at home over Christmas and New Year anyway?????


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## barryd

motormouth said:


> Barry
> Sounds as if your big end has developed a leak. I would get a blooming big hammer and give it a good beating. :lol: :lol:
> 
> Seriously, hope you get sorted or get home safely. What's so wrong with staying at home over Christmas and New Year anyway?????


Have no idea what your on about but it sounds rude.

Got to new CL ten miles away. Usual grey blue smoke on start up sounds like its on two cylinders for 30 seconds then fine.

Didn't miss once on the way here. Now I cant be sure but I think it got worse the longer I drove it yesterday but today has also been flattish with very few hills but I gave it some welly and it seemed normal.

I dunno!!!! I cant have fixed it myself, thats just impossible!

Staying at home at Christmas and New YEar is boring for us. No family to speak of and those I can be bothered with usually naff off to the canaries or somewhere.

Had hale stones as big as golf balls last night thought the roof was coming in. Dont get that at home! To cap it all the window that came out in the dinette so that damp repair could be done (that insidentely never leaked) is now flipping leaking!!!!!

ARGGHH.


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## vicdicdoc

I'd try a bottle of this in the [half full] fuel tank 
. . [touch wood] one treatment each year always makes my engine run better
http://www.autocruisers.co.uk/index...id=843&zenid=dde975394adaf880690e0a0ed65ae1e2


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## barryd

Thanks

the garage said as they thought it may not atomizing properly they had added some additive to the fuel to see if it starts better but if anything it's got worse.

I think I'm going to wing it now and see how it goes. As I stayed sober last night I'm gong to stop on this Cl fr a couple of nghts and follow 747's eariier advice and get smashed!


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## barryd

Update

well we are still alive (just)

van seemed a little better bit it seems only to jitter after half an hour or so driving. Today from keswick it wad fine on the Main road up hills in 5th and 4th at 60 mph but when i cut across a b road to ullswater at lower speeds up and down hills it did it a few times and it only seems in third gear but that could be coincidence.

To add to the fun we got marrooned on a Cl for two days between keswick and thirlmere, the weather was wild and I though the van was going over In the night.

Trees down all over the place, when we finally escape to grasmere on the bike we had a flat battery but I managed to kick start it. I then managed to break the kick start at grasmere (10 miles from the van) and had to get the flipping thing recovered.

So all in all it's not going well this trip mechanically. But hey we have a lovely wild spot at hartstop / brothers water and a fridge full of beer and some fab French cheese we found in booths in keswick to remind us of a happier and drier summer!

I guess if we get back to teesdale I'll just have to dump the whole lot at the garage and let them sort it. Another big bill no doubt!


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## joedenise

If they put some injector cleaner in and it has improved a little then remove fuel filter tip out the deisel and fill vith injector cleaner,

start the engine the smoke should clear after 5 minutes (it will be BAD) once smoke has gone you will have clean injectors

joe


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## eurajohn

Barry you mentioned "beers in fridge" so I'm guessing that you got that problem sorted! what was it?


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## 747

I was getting a bit worried by the silence Barry. I normally do worry about you when you are out and about.

Why don't you take the easy option. Sell your van and buy mine.

Cash only. :wink:


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## barryd

Thanks for the advice and concern!

Sell Hank! Never. Well Actually we did ponder it but I've spent a bit on sorting out a few bits so will Have to keep him a bit.

I forgot about the fridge post and will have to update it thanks

turned out to be just a new jet which cost a fiver but the whole thing has to come out to get at it.


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## locrep

*Fuel filter*

I am pretty sure your fuel filter housing is allowing air to be drawn in..


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## barryd

Just to let you know we arrived back home this afternoon. Van flew across the A66 no problem. Foot on the floor up the big hills not a hicup but then nearing home it jittered a couple of times but nothing like it did the other day when I started the post.

Still starts up like a bag off spanners with plenty of smoke though.

Thanks again for all the support and advice, I will pool it together so I can talk to the garage about it tomorrow.


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## barryd

Update 2

I had a phone call from the garage today. Sadly I didnt speak to the guy in charge but from what I can gather they say they found nothing wrong with the Glow plugs. Well I knew that I told them as they tested them at the service when I first complained about the problem back in November!

They say they have replaced the fuel filter. I asked them surely they replaced it at the service. Dunno was the answer but it had jelly in it. FFS (is what I wanted to say) but went along with the jelly story. He said do you use super market fuel? Of course, sometimes I replied. We have had a lot of trouble lately with similar problems with diesels running super market fuel. Apparently they dont put the additives needed in it anymore. 

I couldnt be bothered and was too busy to argue with him but will take it up with the boss tomorrow.

I asked how it started today and he said not as bad but still a but ropey.

I cant say I am over confident that they will get to the root of this problem and are making a concentrated effort to diagnose the fault.

To be honest I hate taking the van there as I think they really dont like working on it as it gets in the way.


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## ched999uk

To be honest I believe that the 'super market' fuel is complete bull ( Sorry, am I allowed to say that?). 
All fuel suppliers in UK submit passes the EU 590 specification. While this isn't mandatory I don't think there is a supplier who delivers to UK forecourts deviates from this spec. This spec details the minimum and maximum of chemical components in the fuel. As far as I remember 'normal UK' diesel does have a 'normal' additive and detergent package in it.

One thing to remember is that Summer Diesel is very different to Winter Diesel. If Summer Diesel is used in Low temps it goes all waxy and can clog things up! Forecourts get Winter Diesel in certain months and Summer diesel for the rest of the year. 

The 'jelly' could be summer fuel getting Waxy in low temp? 

Personally my thoughts are either an air leak in fuel system or a failing injector.

Good luck and thanks for the update. Please let us know what the solution is when you find it.


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## jonse

*running rough*

Had similar probs last week, sounded like a bag nails due to not getting the fuel through
was the injectors so removed the filter put half of injector cleaner in topped up with diesel, smoked like hell did a five mile foot to the floor, goes like a bat out of hell now, so do try some cleaner,good idea to do this before your mot, if you buy the bottle for 60litre tank only have 30 or 40 litres in the tank and give a good hard run surprising how much better it will run after this, Note only 31thousand on the clock there is no mileage one can specify for this problm it just happens can also be dirty fuel that gives this problm


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## BillCreer

Hi,

Jelly in the fuel filter sounds like water contamination.


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## airstream

*Bug?*

Hi,
When this happens in boats we blame "the bug"

Contamination - Bacteria and 'The Diesel Bug'.
Diesel fuel has an inherent bacteria and when water is added this bacteria is able to breed. This 'bug' will form a layer between the fuel and the water and as it breeds it produces waste which is usually evident as black or dark lumps.

Water can also encourage the build-up of microbes, algae and even fungi which can develop many types of sludge and residue within the fuel. This biomass may drop to the bottom of the tank or it may suspend in the fuel. Either way, it will clog up the filters and lead to expensive damage to equipment, with breakdowns in power supply.

These are universally known as 'the Diesel Bug'

Just a thought lots of treatments as once in the tank will stay untill treated

Ray


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## barryd

Thanks

I will speak to them today and see what they say.

I think they added some additive / cleaner before Christmas though.


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## barryd

*Update (again!)*

Im sorry to keep this thread going and hassling you all for advice but I do believe there is greater knowledge on here than our garage!

Got the van back yesterday and some good news and bad news but mainly good (I hope)

They fitted a new fuel filter and a one way valve to stop fuel coming back up the line (or something like that).

Van was fine coming home (15 miles). Decided to use it today for work which involved a good old thrash pretty much up hill all the way up to Middleton in Teesdale.

It still started like a bag of spanners but recovered sooner than before. One thing I noticed is the orange light for the glow plugs went out sooner than before. It used to take about 10 or 15 seconds but now takes about 3. I remember before it used to take about 3 and we had a similar starting problem so they changed the glow plugs, the light started taking longer to go out but always started ok. Despite them telling me the plugs were ok Im sure this is where the starting problem lies (but what to I know :roll: ).

If they haven't done anything with the glow plugs how come the light is now going out quicker?

Anyway the starting problem aside the van went like a bat out of hell, never missed a beat and I gave it a good hard drive there and back so whatever they have done seems to have cured the power and missing problem (for now).

Im going to have to call them again on Monday so any further advice from you lot would be greatly appreciated.

Ill understand if your all down the pub. Wish I was!

Cheers
Barry

EDIT: Do you think as its cured the performance issue and it drives ok we can now rule out it being the injectors as this was the expensive bit if it was?


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## 747

I cannot really help a lot but it sounds better. If the power is there then there cannot be much wrong.

As for the glow plug light, the one on my Fiat (different engine) is barely on for 3 seconds but it starts first time every time.

A bit of Redex or similar once in a while will not hurt. What I would do is ask the garage to fit a new fuel filter after about 1000 miles. If it is gunged up again then you may need to flush out the fuel tank. It is a garage job Barry but may not be necessary.

ps, fancy Croft WMC in February. (see flatcap & whippet thread on your other favourite forum).


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## eurajohn

Barry, I guess they fitted a new complete filter housing assembly (as I suggested some time ago).
With reference to the pre heater plug light, on your van the duration of the light being on (and power being supplied to the plugs) is controlled by a controller box, I'm pretty sure that unlike the newer common rail engines which have an intelligent control for the plugs that reacts to temperature, yours is predominantly a time controller, they normally stay on for a good many seconds, so if yours is going off quickly then it may not be powering up the heaters long enough for them to be effective.
The system really needs to be checked by someone with a meter, if checking the plugs they do not need to be removed just isolated from one another and then tested for continuity.


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## barryd

747 said:


> I cannot really help a lot but it sounds better. If the power is there then there cannot be much wrong.
> 
> As for the glow plug light, the one on my Fiat (different engine) is barely on for 3 seconds but it starts first time every time.
> 
> A bit of Redex or similar once in a while will not hurt. What I would do is ask the garage to fit a new fuel filter after about 1000 miles. If it is gunged up again then you may need to flush out the fuel tank. It is a garage job Barry but may not be necessary.
> 
> ps, fancy Croft WMC in February. (see flatcap & whippet thread on your other favourite forum).


Thanks 747 and thanks John.

Im going to persist with this until its how I want it rather than being fobbed off by the garage.

Right. Off to look at this booze up in Feb!

Thanks for the heads up although you may live to regret it! :twisted:


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## barryd

*Update*

This is really starting to hack me off now. The garage had the van for a month awaiting some part or other for the fan (can heater). I now cant remember what they said they did to sort the starting problem. Not a lot a guess as we never got a bill!

However we have now had a chance to test the van properly as we are away in it. Its no better.

Still starts like a bag of spanners and kicks out a load of blue smoke but then its fine after 30 seconds. No smoke when driving.

Im not calling them again as I dont think they know what the problem is.

Im wondering if I should start a new thread looking for a diesel specialist in the North East unless anyone knows one.

Im convinced its to do with either the glow plugs or the thing that warms them up. It just seems imposible to get a decent mechanic! There must be millions of 2.5 TD engines out there! ARGGHH!


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## erneboy

Barry, few people know more about the various models of Fiat Ducato and their mechanicals than Mark Woods at http://candmauto.co.uk/

Mark was workshop foreman at TB Turbo, who had an outstanding reputation for their work under his direction.

I get all my work done there as do many others on here. There is overnight parking outside his garage so he could see a cold start in action. It's not so far from you and a nice coast to spend a few days on.

Check both TB and C&M in Company Reports. No guarantees of course but he knows his stuff, Alan.


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## barryd

erneboy said:


> Barry, few people know more about the various models of Fiat Ducato and their mechanicals than Mark Woods at http://candmauto.co.uk/
> 
> Mark was workshop foreman at TB Turbo, who had an outstanding reputation for their work under his direction.
> 
> I get all my work done there as do many others on here. There is overnight parking outside his garage so he could see a cold start in action. It's not so far from you and a nice coast to spend a few days on.
> 
> Check both TB and C&M in Company Reports. No guarantees of course but he knows his stuff, Alan.


Thanks Alan

Still a bit of a hike but I suppose we could make a trip of it. Its just frustrating that I cant seem to get someone local. I probably can get someone in Darlington or Richmond etc but its just knowing who to go to. Ill maybe start a separate thread about it.

Regards
Barry


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## erneboy

The way I see it Barry is that when things go beyond the simple and obvious you need a specialist. That holds true in many fields.

Maybe Mark can't help but at least he will be looking at the problem with a full understanding and huge experience.

My brother lives in Baldersby, near Thirsk and I run across to Mark when spending a few days there. It's only a couple of hours each way. I know you are just North of there, Alan.


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## barryd

erneboy said:


> The way I see it Barry is that when things go beyond the simple and obvious you need a specialist. That holds true in many fields.
> 
> Maybe Mark can't help but at least he will be looking at the problem with a full understanding and huge experience.
> 
> My brother lives in Baldersby, near Thirsk and I run across to Mark when spending a few days there. It's only a couple of hours each way. I know you are just North of there, Alan.


Thanks Alan

Ive started a new thread looking for a local specialist but if nothing turns up then your suggestion could be the way to go.


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## raynipper

Hi Barry.
I know it's not Fiat but a Merc.2.7 CRD.
Bought a cheap Jeep at Christmas and brought it to France. It had a couple of problems so put it into local Renault garage.
Three weeks later and €1144 bill they found a duff injector, damaged fuel pipes, broken fixing clamp and renewed auxiliary belt and pulleys.

One day later just before going for an MOT, revved the engine to clear soot and blew the next injector out of the head. Now back in garage awaiting more parts. Looks like someone has bodged all the injector clamps. But I can't point the finger, just have to pay.

Ray.


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## barryd

raynipper said:


> Hi Barry.
> I know it's not Fiat but a Merc.2.7 CRD.
> Bought a cheap Jeep at Christmas and brought it to France. It had a couple of problems so put it into local Renault garage.
> Three weeks later and €1144 bill they found a duff injector, damaged fuel pipes, broken fixing clamp and renewed auxiliary belt and pulleys.
> 
> One day later just before going for an MOT, revved the engine to clear soot and blew the next injector out of the head. Now back in garage awaiting more parts. Looks like someone has bodged all the injector clamps. But I can't point the finger, just have to pay.
> 
> Ray.


Oh god! Thats bad news Ray. This is my worry. Nobody I ever use for anything, car, motorhome, scooter, house! actually inspires confidence in what they are doing.

The Scooter is a joke. I have had three dealers in Darlington do bits on it and they are useless. Either never available or take an age to sort any niggles. Luckily we have found one in Bridlington (where we frequent) that is good but its 100 miles from home.

I think I might take Alans advice and call that specialist in Lancaster.


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## eurajohn

Barry as I said some time back I think your starting problems are linked to the pre heater plugs (I was correct ref the other problem / fuel filter)  . Now on the 2.5 engine 2 of the plugs are an absolute swine to do and the other 2 are not exactly what you would call easy and without the correct tools nigh on impossible, perhaps the garage didn't fancy a struggle. One other point is that it is not unknown for a plug to break off in the head when trying to remove as they often get corroded in, so maybe they were frightened of that possibility.
It's a relatively easy (if a bit of a fiddle) job to check whether the plugs are functioning or not and at the same time to ensure that the controller is supplying power to them (although the fact that it starts at all when cold would suggest that there is power being delivered), you only need a multimeter set to resistance, dis-connect the power leads to the plugs and put one test lead to the screwed connector and the other to earth if the meter shows continuity then that plug is OK if none then it has failed.
To check if power is being supplied, set the tester to dc volts and put the red lead to the wire connected to the plugs and the black one to earth, then get someone else to turn on ignition whilst watching the meter, if it's working OK the meter will register whatever the battery voltage is, but only for a short period usually around 10 - 20 seconds.

Hope that helps, if you were in the Mayenne I'd do it for you.


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## barryd

Thanks for that. The garage say they have tested the plugs but who knows!

There is a chap round the corner from me that does stuff for local maybe ill let him have a look.

If it's not that, then what else can it be? It runs fine.


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## Jezport

Have replied to your other thread.


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## barryd

*Video Update*

Just got back home and somebody on the other thread suggested uploading a movie of the starting problem so here it is.

You need the sound right up. As you will see and hear it struggles to get going, appears not to be firing on all cylinders and then eventually it runs sweet as a nut and the smoke disappears.

Drove it back from the East coast yesterday 100 miles and ran perfect. Just starts like a bag of spanners.






EDIT: forgot to add it smells more of diesel than smoke on start up


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## eurajohn

Having seen that I'm even more convinced that it is a heater plug fault.
It is not as bad as I thought from your posts I'd say probably one maybe two plugs not working.
Is it worse when really cold?

The white diesel smoke would also point to plug problems as the cylinder is just pushing out the unburnt fuel.


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## barryd

eurajohn said:


> Having seen that I'm even more convinced that it is a heater plug fault.
> It is not as bad as I thought from your posts I'd say probably one maybe two plugs not working.
> Is it worse when really cold?
> 
> The white diesel smoke would also point to plug problems as the cylinder is just pushing out the unburnt fuel.


Thanks. Yes it is only like this first thing on a morning. I think it is worse when really cold.

It would appear that its either glow plugs, plug relay or a few people have suggested it could be an injector not atomising properly and leaking fuel onto the piston which causes this problem the next morning.

I called a local farmer freind who has recommended these people in Darlington

http://www.autoinsider.co.uk/local/diesel-fuel-injection-services/ai_21363.php

They dont have their own website but apparently this is the place all the local garages go to to get injectors tested and fixed.

will call them in the morning


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## jonse

*Starting*

Have had similar problem on my 2.8, on starting it sounded like a bag nails but a good dose of injector cleaner seems to have cleared the problem, I am convinced its you injectors not your glow plugs had a few hesitant spots while in Morocco but it cleared and no trouble since


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## devjb

Barry,

I may be wrong, but I thought the 2.5td peugeot and fiat engines of that age, are the same and do not have glow plugs, but a single flame pre-heater in the inlet manifold. It works by literally igniting and burning diesel to warm the inlet manifold and cylinders.

The flame pre-heater only operates below 4 degrees C. Hence above 4 degrees, the orange dash light goes out very quickly. Below 4 degrees, the orange dashlight can be on for up to 10 seconds.

If it's a single pre-heater not functioning, all cyclinders would suffer the same issue.

John


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## barryd

*Update*

Got the van back yesterday finally! (Long story)

The chap that does the internal work recommended a garage in Newton Aycliffe near Darlington so I let them have a look. They said that it looked like glow plugs and indeed it looked like one had never been changed and was rusty and defective. They replaced all four at a cost of £126 (is that a lot?) and guess what....

Its no better!!!

Well perhaps slighltly but it clearly wasn't the problem.

Looks like injectors or fuel pump then. Should I just keep throwing money at garages until they get lucky and guess correctly what the problem is or bin it and get a caravan?


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## sideways

I have been watching this thread with interest.I have refrained from commenting as i have been in Australia while it has been running and internet access has been linitedTheres a good possibility thats its low on compression on more than one cylinder and because its compression ignition i.e no spark if its low it wont initially fire the diesel until the cylinder heats which is only a matter of seconds, white smoke which your video shows is simply unburnt fuel passing through the exhaust.its worth checking to see if you have a 5th heater plug in the intake as previously suggested, Its also true that if the injector is dripping fuel instead of spraying a mist you will get the symptoms. the thing to do is take the injectors out and have them tested properly if they are good do a compression test as you need the injectors out to do one anyway, theres no simple answer with diesels theyre a lot trickier to diagnose. You could of course just grin and bear it,but some people me included can,t do that i know.


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## barryd

sideways said:


> I have been watching this thread with interest.I have refrained from commenting as i have been in Australia while it has been running and internet access has been linitedTheres a good possibility thats its low on compression on more than one cylinder and because its compression ignition i.e no spark if its low it wont initially fire the diesel until the cylinder heats which is only a matter of seconds, white smoke which your video shows is simply unburnt fuel passing through the exhaust.its worth checking to see if you have a 5th heater plug in the intake as previously suggested, Its also true that if the injector is dripping fuel instead of spraying a mist you will get the symptoms. the thing to do is take the injectors out and have them tested properly if they are good do a compression test as you need the injectors out to do one anyway, theres no simple answer with diesels theyre a lot trickier to diagnose. You could of course just grin and bear it,but some people me included can,t do that i know.


Thanks. If there was a compression problem would I not notice a difference in performance. the van is fine once its started after 30 seconds.

I suppose I could leave it but Im concerned that it will get worse and eventually wont start at all or it may cause damage.

The last thing I want is it breaking down in the Alps or somewhere miles from home.


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## sideways

In answer to your question i,m not saying your engine is terminally ill, slightly low compression or more importantly unequal compression can cause your problems, as you say its fine after a few seconds, so i,m suggesting things that affect the first few seconds of running basically you need atomised fuel and the heat generated by high compession to fire it so ok thats simplifying it a bit but i suggest your lacking in one or the other.


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## jonse

*Rough Starting*

Go to Essanjay site , for more info, could be your ECG valve sticking which can happen when the van has stood and would cause this problem, this site will tell you how to clean the ECG, and in your case might solve your trouble


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## sideways

Be amazed to find an exhaust gas recirculation valve on a 16 year old diesel mate!


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## barryd

Thanks for the relpies. Cant find anything on the Essanjay site and sadly they are in Poole.


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## jonse

*Rough*

So would I sideways, DER


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## spatz1

have you had a new timing belt fitted recently ?


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## jonse

*Rough*

I think i would go down Sideways route , your smoke suggest its injection problms did have the same trouble but used a strong injector cleaner (ie) less than half a tank of fuel to the bottle, then a good run taking it to full revs you will get lots of smoke so go somewhere there is no traffic if you can, and drive till it doesn't smoke any more its definitely not the heater plugs ,there is also a pipe that connects to a tee piece like at pipe 2 that is connected to the 
round dome pipe 1 in the pic on mine this was split and affected the running, the pipe gos behind the air filter in my van to a black unit behind the back of the washer bottle,hope this makes sense


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## barryd

Thanks again. No timing belt fitted recently. About three years ago I think.


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## eurajohn

Slight criticism here. It would be very helpful if anyone planning a reply to this thread (or others like it) ensured they were aware of the year and specification of the vehicle in question before making suggestions, many of which are not relevant and often miss-leading.


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## sideways

Well said a lot of well intentioned people have no idea what there talking about.


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## barryd

Thanks

Just to remind everyone its a 1996 Peugeot Boxer 2.5TD Kontiki

Nothing complex (well you would think so)

BD


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## tyreman1

My opinion is that it starts too easily to be glow plugs,first port of call has to be getting the injectors out and get them checked,I know the size of the van rules out a lot of garages but any competent diesel mechanic should be able to get the injectors out and checked,aren't there any mobile mechanics in your area ????....hope you get sorted soon.


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## barryd

tyreman1 said:


> My opinion is that it starts too easily to be glow plugs,first port of call has to be getting the injectors out and get them checked,I know the size of the van rules out a lot of garages but any competent diesel mechanic should be able to get the injectors out and checked,aren't there any mobile mechanics in your area ????....hope you get sorted soon.


I think the garage I took it to recently are ok. They came recommended and when I spoke to them I like their attitude. To be fair to them one of the glow plugs was duff so I suppose we could argue that it was logical to change them. I do think however they should have kept the van and tested it the next morning. Ill discuss it with them tomorrow and see what they say before deciding if I should let them loose on it again or take it further afield to one of the recommended specialists from this thread.


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## erneboy

sideways said:


> I have been watching this thread with interest.I have refrained from commenting as i have been in Australia while it has been running and internet access has been linitedTheres a good possibility thats its low on compression on more than one cylinder and because its compression ignition i.e no spark if its low it wont initially fire the diesel until the cylinder heats which is only a matter of seconds, white smoke which your video shows is simply unburnt fuel passing through the exhaust.its worth checking to see if you have a 5th heater plug in the intake as previously suggested, Its also true that if the injector is dripping fuel instead of spraying a mist you will get the symptoms. the thing to do is take the injectors out and have them tested properly if they are good do a compression test as you need the injectors out to do one anyway, theres no simple answer with diesels theyre a lot trickier to diagnose. You could of course just grin and bear it,but some people me included can,t do that i know.


For my tuppence worth Barry the above is the best advice you have had on this thread. Rule out compression problems and you are left with a fuel problem. Rule out injector problems and you are left with an injector pump problem. The cost of having the injectors done up will not be enormous. The cost of having pumps done up varies greatly depending on the make and type. Try these guys for a quote on an exchange unit: http://www.dieseljones.co.uk/diesel-fuel-pumps-diesel-injector-exchange-terms.html

Alan.


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## eurajohn

Barry whatever course of action you choose, bear in mind that to have the injectors tested will cost and for the type of injector fitted to your van the replacement cost is not great (probably around £60 - £80 each for recon). Take into account that in this day and age the labour element of any work is often more than the parts, it might be as well to just bite the bullet and go for a recon set at least that way you will know beyond doubt and with only one lot of labour costs and normally less delay.


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## barryd

I dont like the sound of this. So really what we are saying is that I could go and get a recon set of injectors and spend another few hundred pounds and this might not be the problem?

Is there no easy way they can actually diagnose what is wrong with the van in say an hour?

I am happy to pay to have it fixed but I am going to get a bit miffed if I keep paying to have stuff fixed that isnt broken until they happen to come across what is actually wrong with it.


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## spatz1

seems you re up against quite a lot....

http://screencast.com/t/bweCSGWum

glow plugs are tested easily by disconecting and one at a time dogging a 12v wire on and watching for the spark...i d also use a test bulb to check the length of time they are powered up on start and an ameter across all four to check the current which was 32a across four glow plugs on a peugeot 205 .....(8a a piece if you use the ameter with the test wire)

and with them ruled out and having searched for a "fifth" you could rule them out...and start crossing off the list above at no cost...

http://screencast.com/t/gNufKNDx

the fact it starts is encouraging...


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## erneboy

I don't know the mileage of your van Barry but it's common at higher mileages to have injectors tested/refurbished. If the mileage is high you may as well exchange or refurb them because even if they aren't faulty now the odds are that they will develop faults.

Your pump may or may not be the problem but by trying the injectors first you will either rule out pump problems or get a strong indication that a fault in the pump is causing the problem.

It may just be due to wear and tear. Pumps and injectors don't last for ever. 

If it was me I would have the injectors tested, that's not a big job, but it might take two hours or so to remove, check and replace them. Longer if they need refurbishing, so maybe exchange units would be a slightly better option, Alan.


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## barryd

erneboy said:


> I don't know the mileage of your van Barry but it's common at higher mileages to have injectors tested/refurbished. If the mileage is high you may as well exchange or refurb them because even if they aren't faulty now the odds are that they will develop faults.
> 
> Your pump may or may not be the problem but by trying the injectors first you will either rule out pump problems or get a strong indication that a fault in the pump is causing the problem.
> 
> It may just be due to wear and tear. Pumps and injectors don't last for ever.
> 
> If it was me I would have the injectors tested, that's not a big job, but it might take two hours or so to remove, check and replace them. Longer if they need refurbishing, so maybe exchange units would be a slightly better option, Alan.


Thanks Alan

The van has done just 63000 miles so not exactly high mileage but it is 16 years old this year.


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## eurajohn

Barry I wasn't suggesting that you should spend hundreds of pounds and still not have the problem fixed.
With and older non single rail diesel I'm not aware of any test that can be made on the injectors, other than a simple pressure test (that's not saying there isn't one) without them being removed and put on a test rig, so if going down the "get them tested" route the labour cost will be to remove the injectors, get them tested and then either replace them if they test OK, or replace if not; so the only price differential will be between the charge for testing as opposed to replacement and as you point out the engine has done 63000 miles so there is likely to be wear on the needles and springs in the injectors if nothing else.

With reference to the other helpful pointers, you have all along reported that the engines performance when warmed has not deteriorated from what you remember it to be, so you can safely dis-regard the likes of cracked cylinder head, burnt valves, blown gasket et. etc. all of which will have other side effects (such as overheating or serious loss of power).


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## barryd

eurajohn said:


> Barry I wasn't suggesting that you should spend hundreds of pounds and still not have the problem fixed.
> With and older non single rail diesel I'm not aware of any test that can be made on the injectors, other than a simple pressure test (that's not saying there isn't one) without them being removed and put on a test rig, so if going down the "get them tested" route the labour cost will be to remove the injectors, get them tested and then either replace them if they test OK, or replace if not; so the only price differential will be between the charge for testing as opposed to replacement and as you point out the engine has done 63000 miles so there is likely to be wear on the needles and springs in the injectors if nothing else.
> 
> With reference to the other helpful pointers, you have all along reported that the engines performance when warmed has not deteriorated from what you remember it to be, so you can safely dis-regard the likes of cracked cylinder head, burnt valves, blown gasket et. etc. all of which will have other side effects (such as overheating or serious loss of power).


Thanks

Ill discuss it with the garage tomorrow and see if I can get them to give me a price for at the least getting them tested.


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## barryd

*Update*

Im not sure where to start with this post.

Started the van the other day before I took it back to the original garage. It was much better but still very rattley on startup but not as much smoke. Mrs D straight away said it was much better. I wasn't convinced.

Anyway I took it down and requested that they get the injectors tested but could they check it out first to see what they thought. They left it overnight and then started it and called me to say that it certainly was better but the starter motor which was brand new last November wasn't working properly and hence the rattle after start up.

This has now been changed under warranty and I have the van back. Just started it an hour ago after its been stood 24 hours and guess what? Its probably as good as it ever was! Still a bit of smoke but only for a second or two and it seems to be turning over much faster and cleaner and no rattles. The garage said they are satisfied that its fine and to be honest I don't see why they would fob me off as they would be getting paid to take the injectors out and get them tested and or replaced if that was the problem. Could it possibly have been a combination of glow plugs and / or a duff starter motor?

I would like to say Im convinced its fixed but I still have my doubts but it does seem certainly as good as I remember it ever being.

Hmmm. Good to go and trundle across the Alps for the summer or not? Maybe the van knows summer is coming and is raring to go!

I wish I could report back a convincing conclusion but thats where I am at with it at the moment. Sailed through its MOT again while it was there by the way.

Interested in your thoughts and I cant begin to say how grateful I am for all your help.


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