# Dump stations?



## thesmiths88

We are hoping to do a fair amount of wild camping in our new motorhome, but I wondered if there was a list anywhere of dump stations around the UK? Or, do campsites allow you to use theirs for a fee?

Thanks!


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## Grizzly

thesmiths88 said:


> We are hoping to do a fair amount of wild camping in our new motorhome, but I wondered if there was a list anywhere of dump stations around the UK? Or, do campsites allow you to use theirs for a fee?
> 
> Thanks!


I don't think there is a list as such as they are few and far between but yes, one of the main clubs ( Caravan or Camping and Caravanning- can't remember which ) do allow you to use their facilities for a fee. The fee usually includes use of laundry and showers as well as clean water fill, cassette and grey water dump so, if you only want to dump the cassette you could possibly negotiate a reduction. I would expect CLs and CSs to allow servicing if you offer a small fee.

If you can find a reasonably quiet public loo then there is no reason why you should not dump your cassette there. I'm sure you'd take care to wipe up splashes etc if they occur and take your own bottle of water to avoid having to use a public tap to rinse with.

There are sometimes facilities at coach parks for dumping grey and cassette contents and I think a list of these was once published.

This is a useful website:

http://www.motorhomeparking.co.uk/

and we have always found an email direct to a town or city parking authority is helpful.

G

Edit to add:

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/uk-motorhome-stopovers.shtml


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## Jented

Hi.
I "Think?" the clubs make a charge for emptying loo's,waste,and filling with fresh water,i can see this is because they pay extra water rates. A lot of the Aires on the continent have dump stations,as have some of the service areas you may come across.
A lot of the "Pioneers :lol: " on here,carry TWO cass/receptacles,just in case they are.............. "Caught short? :idea: " Seems a good idea to me,right,its make your mind up time,have fun.
Ted


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## selstrom

For £6.60 the Camping and Caravan Club allow you to use their facilities, link below

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/ukcampsites/clubsites/motorhomeservicepoints/

The Caravan Club does all it can to stop "Wild Camping"


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## Grizzly

selstrom said:


> The Caravan Club does all it can to stop "Wild Camping"


And your evidence for this statement is - ?

G


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## thesmiths88

Thank you all so much for your help


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## barryd

selstrom said:


> For £6.60 the Camping and Caravan Club allow you to use their facilities, link below
> 
> http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/ukcampsites/clubsites/motorhomeservicepoints/
> 
> The Caravan Club does all it can to stop "Wild Camping"


Good grief!!

£6.60. I have paid less for a CL with hookup for a whole night and there are loads of CL and CS sites sub £5 for a nights stay without hookup.

Personally I have never found it a problem, public loos, garages and the odd CL at a fiver a night after four days wilding. Easy peasy


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## jiwawa

But do remember that if you use chemicals in your loo, you shouldn't just throw it down an ordinary toilet - have I got that right?


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## Grizzly

JWW said:


> But do remember that if you use chemicals in your loo, you shouldn't just throw it down an ordinary toilet - have I got that right?


You only possible problem would come if the loo you used was connected to a septic tank or cess pit rather than to mains drainage. If- and it is not very common now- your chemicals were formaldehyde- then there is a chance they would disrupt the natural action of the cess pit or septic tank.

If- as is usual- the loo is connected to mains drainage then you have no more problems flushing your cassette down it than you do flushing it down an official chemical disposal place.

G


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## jiwawa

Thanks Grizzly - I stand corrected!


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## Grizzly

JWW said:


> Thanks Grizzly - I stand corrected!


I think your main problem might come from members of the public who take it upon themselves to object to motorhomers emptying cassettes in public loos !

:roll:

G


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## 747

To avoid upsetting non-motorhomers I do the following:

We normally use pedal bin liners as rubbish bags.

A cassette fits into one very nicely.  

Keep one in the Thetford compartment.

Pop it in and off you go. 8)


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## ptmike

It is quite awful how the UK does not have seemingly the slightest intention to provide aires like in France or at least dump stations like in New Zealand and indeed the Isle of Uist . Bravo to the burghers of Canterbury for their aire the only one in England ? And also to the village near Ballymeana in NI which has a real French aire facility. Considering how many mhs are on the road both uk and foreign well the mind boggles.

It is sorely etched upon our memory of a layby next to a loch in Scotland being covered with the contents of well I will leave it to your imagination.

I would have thought more councils would take the same inititive as canterbury to improve their tourism coffers .

cheers

Mike


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## Grizzly

ptmike said:


> It is quite awful how the UK does not have seemingly the slightest intention to provide aires like in France
> 
> I would have thought more councils would take the same inititive as canterbury to improve their tourism coffers .
> 
> Mike


Mike...look at the links I gave in an earlier post in this thread. Look through the numerous posts in which this topic has been aired before.
There are places to overnight in UK- provided by the town or village- as well as places to dump. You've just not looked, that's all. 
Before you complained, did you write to suggest the idea to your local authority, or one close to you ?

G


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## barryd

I think Mike and Grizzly both have valid points. It's an uphill struggle getting councils to change their minds and attitudes towards Motorhome parking and I have seen many a campaign led by enthusiastic motorhomers (often just one forum member) who picks up the reigns and has a go at persuading the local council to open an aire only after often weeks of emails and letters to hit a brick wall.

Yes there are pockets of success such as canterbury or the aire (if you can call it that) at ambleside but it is still pretty much a none Motorhome friendly country.

If there is ever to be a countrywide change of heart it's going to require some serious and organized effort by a large organisation of enthusiastic motorhomers.

I guess that's us then. As in Motorhome facts! Are we not the largest collection of motorhomers in one club? The cc and c&cc are never going to endorse such a campaign so it would have to come from here.

Are we bothered enough though? Who would be in charge and how do we go about it?

There is definately the right people on here with the right skills and experience to lobby the government or at least get them to sit up and listen.

I remember in the 80's going on a massive rally in convoy to leagalise cb radios. It happened all over the uk and it worked. Sadly it ruined the whole experience when it was legalized and the masses got involved.

I would get involved but I think it would take someone with more passion and determination than I have rght now as I'm just about finished with this country and it's attitude to just about everything let alone Motorhome parking!

Volunteers then??? 

I'll get off me soap box now


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## rowley

Barry wrote---I remember in the 80's going on a massive rally in convoy to leagalise cb radios. It happened all over the uk and it worked. Sadly it ruined the whole experience when it was legalized and the masses got involved. 

Don't you think that the same thing might happen with motorhomes too? If people see a source of free camping then they will all want a bite of the cherry.


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## nicholsong

Barry

While I support your idea of utilising MHF Members to try to achieve more facilities, your idea of lobbying 'government', if you mean Westminster, is that the Government's answer would be that the provision for parking rests with the local council. The only way to involve Central Government would be to lobby for an Act to require  local councils to provide facilities. That would be a long hill to climb.

Re lobbying locally, only Residents paying rates and voting can have a voice (as I have pointed out before) and I suspect their answer to a local resident would be 'why do you need this facility so close to home?'

I do not want to be negative but only to point out some of the difficulties, because starting off on the wrong foot could scupper any campaign.

On a more constructive note can any shed light on how the Aires and Stellplatz came about, and will their history give a clue as to how we could achieve the same in UK? How did Canterbury's Aire happen?

For instance, in either case was it pressure from the local traders?

Is the structure of local government/ planning controls in other countries a factor in the process?

Can anyone please advise?

Geoff


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## selstrom

From the CC FAQ

Is it illegal to stay overnight in a motorcaravan in France?

Casual camping is allowed in certain areas of France, permission must be obtained from the land owner. The Caravan Club does not recommend this practice for safety and security reasons.

http://tinyurl.com/6sydg4k

There have been other comments from the Chairman, of a similar nature, in the club magazine.


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## Bethune

Grizzly said:


> selstrom said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Caravan Club does all it can to stop "Wild Camping"
> 
> 
> 
> And your evidence for this statement is - ?
> 
> G
Click to expand...

As a member of the Caravan Club I asked our local site if I could pay to use their dump station to empty our black and grey water tanks. We do not have a cassette toilet. Our request was refused with he warden saying it is Caravan Club policy not allow this as it encourages wild camping. 
Philip


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## Grizzly

selstrom said:


> Casual camping is allowed in certain areas of France, permission must be obtained from the land owner. The Caravan Club does not recommend this practice for safety and security reasons.


There is a whole world of difference in this statement- which is applied to France, and is for "safety and security reasons" - and your assertion:



selstrom said:


> The Caravan Club does all it can to stop "Wild Camping"


If the Caravan Club ( and the C&CC) are so keen on stopping wild camping you would not think they would both publish, freely available, a list of overnight stopping places for motorhomes !

And yes, we have an aire in my home town and I like to think I might have had a little to do with it.

G


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## nicholsong

nicholsong said:


> Barry
> 
> While I support your idea of utilising MHF Members to try to achieve more facilities, your idea of lobbying 'government', if you mean Westminster, is that the Government's answer would be that the provision for parking rests with the local council. The only way to involve Central Government would be to lobby for an Act to require  local councils to provide facilities. That would be a long hill to climb.
> 
> Re lobbying locally, only Residents paying rates and voting can have a voice (as I have pointed out before) and I suspect their answer to a local resident would be 'why do you need this facility so close to home?'
> 
> I do not want to be negative but only to point out some of the difficulties, because starting off on the wrong foot could scupper any campaign.
> 
> On a more constructive note can any shed light on how the Aires and Stellplatz came about, and will their history give a clue as to how we could achieve the same in UK? How did Canterbury's Aire happen?
> 
> For instance, in either case was it pressure from the local traders?
> 
> Is the structure of local government/ planning controls in other countries a factor in the process?
> 
> Can anyone please advise?
> 
> Geoff


Grizzly

As you posted that you have an Aire in your 'home town', may we know where that is and how you et. al. achieved it?

Geoff


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## Grizzly

nicholsong said:


> [
> 
> As you posted that you have an Aire in your 'home town', may we know where that is and how you et. al. achieved it?
> 
> Geoff


http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Campsites&op=display_results&csid=650

I can't take credit for doing more than establishing with the powers-that-be, in 2007 I think, that they were happy with MHs overnighting there and what a good thing they are as they bring trade to the town. I then put it in MHF and it has since been copied to various other websites and is also in Camperstop.

Ones that do need pushing are the 2 parking areas for MHs in the Oxford P&Rs. These are NOT overnighting places but I have been nagging for ages to get proper signage for the Redbridge one from the A34. The snag is that the ownership of this P&R goes from county to city to county while you blink and no-one is going to take responsibility for signs. Meanwhile it is hardly used while we notice vans struggling to park in town. If you use it I'd be grateful if you put in your two-pennorth with the current organisers of the P&R- Oxford City Council. A couple of standard blue MH signs off the A34 would alert people to the parking here:

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Campsites&op=display_results&csid=4533

It might be of interest to know that the 2 clubs encourage members to nominate places that they think might make a good CL or CS. You don't have to do more than write to the club with your suggestion; they do all the approaches to owners.

G

G


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## selstrom

Who said the C&CC where against Wild Camping?
I have seen no nevidence of this!


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## nicholsong

Grizzly

Went onto your link re Abingdon.

I went there a couple of years ago. Whilst I do not decry your efforts nor fault your description, it is basically a lorry park, with views, which permits MHs to overnight. Not the facilities of a French Aire.

But at 7 quid a night I decided to move on to the club site at Oxford where I paid 8.50 (OK I am over 60 and single) where I had full facilities and it is a short bicycle ride along the river to Oxford City centre.

In the UK anti-MH environment should we just be grateful for 'small mercies' from councils or should we expect more?

Geoff


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## Grizzly

nicholsong said:


> Grizzly
> 
> In the UK anti-MH environment should we just be grateful for 'small mercies' from councils or should we expect more?
> 
> Geoff


But why should we ? We don't have many French-type aires but we are rich in CLs,CSs,pub sites, reduced price campsites rallies and district meets and so on. Using a little prior application of internet, book or phone, there are few places where we can't overnight for a very modest fee. It is becoming more expensive even in that-apparent- nirvana- of France !

We are a smallish country and we have a real or perceived problem with unwelcome travellers who, because of complex laws, are difficult and expensive to evict. Unsurprisingly towns and villages are rather wary of inviting overnighters. We all know of places where overnighters in motorhomes have been welcomed and have left mess and waste.

I have no evidence that UK is " anti-motorhome"and treat such statements as rather OTT ! I'm afraid that many here are obsessed to the point of being unable to think clearly.

(Apologies to OP for hi-jacking this post; my last word. Enough hot air has been expended already ! A new thread perhaps - ?)

G


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## nicholsong

Grizzly

I obviously misunderstood your motivation - I thought you were in favour of 'Aires'

A lot of the CL/CS etc. alternatives you quote are unavailable in winter months when some of us, who have deliberately bought winterised MHs to roam freely, just want the facility to 'dump' and fill water for a reasonable charge.

Maybe some CL/CS sites which have these facilities on hard-standing would like a bit of income for a quick stop for this purpose.

Geoff


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## Zebedee

Nearly the last word Grizz. :wink: 

I wonder if the geographical smallness of our nation is part of the reason we don't have a network of French type Aires.

With few obvious exceptions, most journeys within the UK can be made quite easily in a single day, so "overnighting" en route is nothing like as necessary as in France.

Unless one was taking a genuine touring holiday in the UK, there is perhaps insufficient perceived need for overnighting to stimulate local authorities into providing the "Aires".

I wonder if a network of "Aires" really would get the use we imagine it would?? :? 

Dunno really - just thinking aloud (as it were!).

Dave


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## Grizzly

Zebedee said:


> I wonder if the geographical smallness of our nation is part of the reason we don't have a network of French type Aires.
> 
> I wonder if a network of "Aires" really would get the use we imagine it would?? :?
> 
> Dunno really - just thinking aloud (as it were!).
> 
> Dave


I think this is only a small part of the answer Dave. I genuinely don't think that UK authorities even see that there are a body of people out here who would like to stop overnight in their town or village. I am very much in favour of aires, Geoff ,and have tried to suggest places for them, back provision of them and get them created.

However; we who own motorhomes tend to think that everyone in the country shares with us our interest in having a place to stay. They don't and, unless the matter is brought to their attention, most non-motorhome owners don't have any inkling that there are people roaming round in tin boxes who'd like to stay in their town or village.

So; we bring this wish to their attention. So far so good. There is a bit of land on the car park near the river- do for you ? Great, even nicer with water and a borne. Ah ! yes ! But !...we are a small town, not much money, rate-payers would not stand a substantial outlay when we're closing libraries, shops and pubs closing so rents falling etc etc. Tell you what; we'll try it out. No borne but we'll allow people to overnight. There's a public loo across the road...but you said they're self-contained.

You get the gist ? People come, look and go to Oxford campsite ! "We're not paying £7 for a place to park-even if it is quiet and convenient- and a public loo !"

If we want aires then we must do as other minority interest do. Canal users get out and dig their own for example, they lobby, they work, they volunteer. We can't just sit around and moan that no-one provides us with a free place to park !

G


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## Zebedee

Yep - I agree with all that Grizz. (Preaching to the converted, or what. :wink:  )

Your emphasis on third party perceptions is crucial I think, and unfortunately we are probably viewed as "gypsy-type" undesirables by some of the beaurocrats who make the decisions. Inevitable I guess, since (as you say) they have no conception or understanding of our way of life.

Can't say I blame them in a way, since there are always a few who "dump" the rest of us in it (_so to speak_ :roll: ) by leaving piles of litter, the contents of their Thetford etc., for all to see.

How do we get it across to the authorities that they are only a tiny minority - when the results of their appalling behaviour still have to be cleaned up by those same authorities? 8O

It only takes a couple of incidents, and they are going say "_Enough_" and erect the barriers . . . as they have already in so many places, and probably for that precise reason. :?

Defeatist, or realist? :?:

Dave


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## Grizzly

Zebedee said:


> k, and unfortunately we are probably viewed as "gypsy-type" undesirables by some of the beaurocrats who make the decisions. Inevitable I guess, since (as you say) they have no conception or understanding of our way of life.
> 
> Dave


I don't think it is even as strong as that Dave. Most people are well able to tell the difference between a leisure camper and a traveller.

However, anyone not a caravanner or motorhomer sees a network of campsites and people using them. That's what people who have caravans or motorhomes do isn't it ? They don't even begin to see that some, not all, want to overnight somewhere en route or not be tied to a campsite or simply stay close to their town so they can go and have a meal without having to move.

Ask anyone who has travelled in a car or stayed in a hotel in France if they are aware that aires exist there -ditto Germany or Italy- and I bet you get the same answer: what are aires ? I have relatives who spend time in a river boat in France and have not asked themselves why there are aggregrations of MHs at some marinas !

We have to sell the idea of an aire to the local shops and restaurants. We have to be prepared to use a car park and get our water etc elsewhere. That will be the thin end of the wedge. When these places are seen to be used properly and to bring benefit, then they might be expanded and improved.

G


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## Zebedee

Grizzly said:


> Ask anyone who has travelled in a car or stayed in a hotel in France if they are aware that aires exist there -ditto Germany or Italy- and I bet you get the same answer: what are aires ? G


That is certainly true. Until we got a van we didn't know what an aire is.



Grizzly said:


> Most people are well able to tell the difference between a leisure camper and a traveller.


I'm not so sure about that though?

It assumes that they *want *to tell the difference, and are not just looking for an excuse to ban the majority for the sins of the few. :roll: _(Regrettably we live in a country where the easy option of banning is often a political expedient!)_

I agree entirely that we have to sell the idea, but it's an attitude of mind that we have to change, and that is neither quick or easy.

The French seem to have it built in. We have sometimes asked permission to park overnight in the middle of a town, and the reply is always the same . . . . _"But of course Monsieur. You have money in your pocket and we want some of it!"_

Now if only we could get that across to the shopkeepers, publicans, restaurateurs etc., we would be more than halfway there. 

Regrettably however, I think they often see us as "self contained" with all the food and beer we need carried on board . . . so of little benefit to their trade.

Wish I had an answer! :wink:

Dave


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## Grizzly

Now if I'd paid my £500 annual boat licence I could moor for free only a matter of 50m from the despised Abingdon aire....! That's 71 nights at £7 per night. I wonder how many nights the average boat owner is en passage over a year and how many nights the average motorhomer uses aires ? 

G


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## pomme1

In July, we stopped off in Hawick for a spot of lunch and do do a bit of shopping. The car park there is huge and pleasantly situated by the side of the river.

As we parked we were approached by someone from 'Hawick Hosts', basically the local chamber of commerce I guess, asking if we would support the provision of an Aire type facility in the town and what sort of services we would require. It was clear that they recognised the potential benefits. Obviously we pledged our support.

The council were prepared to provide large bays alongside the river and to provide twenty four hour access to toilets and water. When I mentioned that it would also be useful to have somewhere to empty toilet cassettes, however, his face dropped as it became obvious to him that this would involve spending money that the council probably didn't have.

I think it is positive that, in some areas at least, the potential for local traders is being realised and I still remain optimistic that something will materialise in Hawick.


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## barryd

The thing is for starters even providing parking with no facilities has to be a major breakthrough.

Hundreds and thousands of car parks lie empty on an evening. With a little forward planning you can arrive with a full tank of water and empty loo and stay two or three days and move on.

They don't need to provide anything.

I have come across loads of fantastic spots in the lakes this Christmas that are full of walkers cars during the day but empty by 4pm when it's dark. No overnighting signs everywhere though.

All they need to do is mark a section off for vans or maybe put in a £2 a night option on a pay and display there is normally a charge. I'm not bothered if there is any facilities. I'm only going to be there a night or two.

This way everybody wins.


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## nicholsong

Just on the point of cost of provision of Aire-type facilities-

I would envisage they should be self-financing, although I do not have the information to cost their provision.

Comments about usage have mainly assumed use 'en-route'. Personally I tour around for weeks and hardly use a campsite, but if I want to go out for the evening it usually means a country pub CP (with permission) or nearby lane, so towns lose out [Bridgenorth an exception, welcomed by CP attendants, just pay for time 0800-1800(?), all-night free]

One problem with financial viability of a facility is projecting usage. I do not see any small council wanting to fund market research.

A lot of the local councils contract-out management of parking. Maybe this is a stumbling block in that contracts maybe for only 2-3 years and the capital outlay may need longer to recover. This could be overcome by some financial engineering.

Possibly one could approach the main CP contractors who might be persuaded to do market research, partly based on their own info, and look at it as a business opportunity.

I would not expect any cost to be borne (sorry pun) by Council Tax payers for a facility they would not use.

A subsidy out of the Business Rates might be different, although non-retail units might object.

Just on the point of charges, I think one has to be realistic, even when assessing a project, as to what the market will bear.

In our discussions above Grizzly thought 7 pounds reasonable just for parking (OK toilet across main road, but I am not going to advertise my dump of waste to passing drivers). I thought it high relative to full facilities for 8.50 at CC&C and free at Bridgenorth.

I do nt know what the market would bear, but I am sure there is useful data available on the continent.

NOW

(and yes, I am shouting to get some input from better qualified Members)

Are any of you able to give input from knowledge of local council operations or from market research?

Geoff


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## Grizzly

nicholsong said:


> I would envisage they should be self-financing, although I do not have the information to cost their provision.


Three or four years ago - yet another time when this topic was aired- the cost was gone into in detail by someone with experience in a related field.



> In our discussions above Grizzly thought 7 pounds reasonable just for parking (OK toilet across main road, but I am not going to advertise my dump of waste to passing drivers). I thought it high relative to full facilities for 8.50 at CC&C and free at Bridgenorth.


We have parked in aires etc all over Europe and paid more for less- ie no view, small, fairly dull village. I'm not out for freebies; We can afford to run a motorhome and pay for provision of somewhere to park it. I'm quite happy to use campsites- and enjoy Walton on Thames at £5 per night. We use our van as a hotel and means of transport and so we expect to pay something to overnight in it.



> Are any of you able to give input from knowledge of local council operations or from market research?
> 
> Geoff


If you e-mail the guiding light behind the Canterbury aire- and my apologies to him but his name has slipped my mind- he is an evangelist on the subject and happy to lobby other councils or to give information on the costs and benefits. And he's a very nice man !

G

Edit to add name: Colin Perris


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## 747

There is a growing trend for County Councils to take over parking responsibility and enforcement from the Police. This has happened with the new unitary Northumberland Council and has been bad for motorists and especially motorhomes. This is due to a fortune being spent on Yellow paint and new signs warning of the penalties of parking in the wrong place.

To achieve anything positive means dealing with very large institutions and I expect it will only make changes more difficult. A village or small town might be happy to provide facilities but if the large CC is not interested because it does not fit their overall scheme then it is bound to fail.


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## tulsehillboys

I have often wondered about using the discrimination laws to get height barriers banned as discriminating against a group of society (travellers).
They also have to shop, go to hospital etc.

Am sure a highly contentious issue but worth a punt :lol:


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## ptmike

Some useful discussions on this thread . Grizzlies points bring home how poor the councils in the UK view the thought of Motorhomes bringing tourism revenue into their ( sorry our !) coffers unlike the French view.

Looking at the links for Nottinghamshire they make dire reading .

The key push with Councils should come from the Caravan Club and the Camping and Caravan club but they have vested interests in having their own sites .

So as several corresponders have said it is down to local initiatives from persons like ourselves . Ideally the initiative should come from the likes of Visit England etc in hand with Government

http://www.enjoyengland.com/Contact-us/

cheers

Mike


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## Grizzly

ptmike said:


> . Grizzlies points bring home how poor the councils in the UK view the thought of Motorhomes bringing tourism revenue into their ( sorry our !) coffers unlike the French view.


Does it really ? That is not at all what I believe or what I believed I wrote ! As far as my experience goes, my local council are quite keen to attract tourists. They don't have spare money but still allow - unlike some- motorhomes to overnight in what is a large, quiet, shaded off-road area beside the Thames. Sadly, it is not much used but then, if all motorhomers want free parking and don't want to pay- as seems to be the case- then this will remain the status quo at least in this town !

Please don't attribute something to me that it is clear I *don't * believe.

G

Edit:

I meant to answer your last point:



> The key push with Councils should come from the Caravan Club and the Camping and Caravan club but they have vested interests in having their own sites .


Why should the key push come from the big clubs ? We -motorhomers- want facilities that, as I stated earlier- I don't believe the majority of councils have ever had drawn to their attention. If we want them we must lobby for them. Have you talked to your local authorities ?


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## grizzlyj

Hi

Having enjoyed many a stay either on a French aire, or undisturbed in any number of quiet corners around the small section of Europe we've explored, the times when an aire has cost me a few Euros has hardly registered. 2 Euros for a token, or even 8 each morning from a local doesn't really come in to it. I hadn't really thought about it. 

But paying £4 or £5 for a CL/CS? Booking? You're joking! They're taking the mickey surely! No aires in the UK? A disgrace!

I hadn't thought about the fact that they are the same really, other than the booking? Is it that that grates? Being fixed to a UK pitch at a certain time and date, as opposed to the freedom of just rolling up?

If not that, then what? :? :?

If it is the booking, then why not get rid of it? Turning up at an aire to find it full is no big deal to any here surely? You have a whole book full of alternatives, and you'll probably pass two before you reach the next one listed. 

Same with campsites. So out of season at least, leave CL/CS's unbookable, no work for the owner other than a "full" sign when required and collect the dosh, more freedom for the camper, and it brings the CC and the C&CC back on our side with existing facilities?


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