# Leisure Battery not charging from engine - Problem



## freewheeler

I have been trawling thru the posts but cannot seem to find the answer I am looking for so here goes.. 
I have suspected that my Leisure battery is not getting charged from the engine when being driven for some time and finally got the multi-meter and a helper to test it today. With engine running and warm, there is no voltage going into the leisure battery. If on hook-up, there is 13.6 going into the Leisure battery and it charges up OK. 
I have checked fuses next to engine battery and fuses in habitation area next to consumer unit and all OK and so do all connections as far as I can see, so could someone tell me where I should look next. I cannot see any fuses right next to the leisure battery. 
My M/H is an Elddis based Buccaneer and the leisure battery is right at the opposite end to the engine, at the rear, which is a b a d design feature I know. Is this a fuse problem or possibly a wire break problem? 

Thanks


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## spykal

> Is this a fuse problem or possibly a wire break problem?


Hi Freewheeler

It could be either ... I would double check the fuses , sometimes converters add a fuse holder in the engine bay, I have experienced a bad connection here that stopped a charge flowing even though the fuse was intact... I would then do a continuity test on the wiring and check all the connections also check that the split charge relay is working ( this should cut in when a the altenator starts to charge).

mike


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## freewheeler

Thanks. 
How do I actually check that the split charge relay is working properly? 
Whereabouts would it be situated - in the engine, in the 'van or near the leisure battery? 
I can't believe how much wiring there is on this M/H - so complex compared to my old Autoquest.......


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## spykal

freewheeler said:


> How do I actually check that the split charge relay is working properly?
> Whereabouts would it be situated - in the engine, in the 'van or near the leisure battery?


Hi Freewheeler

There is a very good diagram of a split charge circuit >> Here <<. 
Using the diagram as a guide you will need to locate the relay and then using a volmeter ( digital multimeter) check that 12v (13+) is available at the terminal marked "87" on the relay. Test between pin 87 and the chassis. It may also be possible to hear/feel the relay latching in when the engine is started and the altenator starts to charge.

The relay which will look something like this 








often there will be two relays mounted together, one for the split charge another controlling the 12v power to the fridge.

It could be anywhere between the Altenator and the battery but common locations are next to the vehicle battery or under one of the seats in the cab.... lets hope someone knows your van and can help otherwise it is just a case of tracing the wires...

best of luck

mike


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## freewheeler

Many thanks Spykal, brilliant info. Something to do when it warms up enough to crawl around the engine and underneath. 
I love a mystery. 
I will report back once I find something.


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## freewheeler

Still struggling with this. Today I crawled around and found the following: 
Coming directly off the battery were 4 extra cables including one thick red and one thick black. (I think one of the others was for the electric step?) These then ran into a loop with fuses and then ran under the van and further into the m/h without any breaks/connections/fuses/relays etc. With engine running there WAS power beyond the fuse. 

I then tracked these cables back. At the leisure battery end there is one thick red and one thick black connected to the leisure battery. There is NO power at the battery. On the red cable before the battery there is an in-line fuse - there is NO power before or after the in-line fuse. 

The difficult bit is in the middle. Both ends of the thick black and thick red disappear in to the m/h and up into the power centre where the MCB, control panel and charger are. Once they go into there it gets very complicated, cramped and difficult to track 

I cannot see any relays and cannot see any other cables e.g running from alternator back the leisure battery. 

I am not sure what to do next apart from delve into all the cables in the control centre area. Every fuse I have found I have checked and double checked. Every block connector I have clicked to make sure of good connection. 

If anyone has anymore clues I would gratefully listen. Thanks.


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## freewheeler

If Spykal is on-line I would really appreciate your thoughts on this, or any others who might have knowledge on this problem.

Thanks.


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## spykal

freewheeler said:


> snipped: The difficult bit is in the middle. Both ends of the thick black and thick red disappear in to the m/h and up into the power centre where the MCB, control panel and charger are. Once they go into there it gets very complicated, cramped and difficult to track
> I cannot see any relays and cannot see any other cables e.g running from alternator back the leisure battery. .


Hi Freewheeler

It sounds like you have had an "interesting" few days...

What we need is someone who knows your van... or has a wiring diagram of your van.

The only online wiring diagrams of an Elddis van that I know of are at :

Elddis Eclipse Wiring link<,

Brians Elddis Eclipse Home Page <<

Not anything like your van but it may be some help to you in describing what is a typical van wiring diagram.

Having traced the wiring as you have my guess is that the relays controlling the 12v power from the altenator to the leisure battery and fridge must be inside the control box. If you are going to take a look .. un hook the hook up before you go in there :roll: (sorry I know that is obvious)

I am still hoping that someone with exact knowledge of your van will come along and put us right.

Mike


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## sergeant

Hi Freewheeler, Under your bonnet roughly central there is a black plastic cover held on by 2 X 10mm nuts, look under there first, you are looking for two relays together, one of which will have a thick red wire with yellow or orange tracer. That is your fridge & habitation relay, the other relay is the split charge relay. If they aren't there look in the base of the wardrobe or if there are drawers next to it take the drawers out & look behind them. I know it is no consolation to you but Elldis are one of the worst for inaccessibility to some of the wiring. Failing all that take of your fridge vents & with a mirror inspect behind the fridge as several vans have the relays there but i dont think yours is one of them, hopefully this will help, if you need anymore help just shout, Steve


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## maddie

Hi why not buy a new relay (about £7/8) run new wiring under van to l/batt thus eliminating poss of broken wire,it may be quicker and better since you will know where your wires now go.
Terry


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## wakk44

hi Freewheeler,

just a thought on this problem-is your fridge working on 12 volt when the engine is running?It could possibly have an illuminated rocker switch which you alter for gas/240v/12v operation.

If it is then it would prove that at least one of the 12v relays that feeds to the habitation area is working,they could have spurred off the same 12v supply for the split charge relay or it could even be a double relay that supplies both the fridge and the leisure battery charging when the engine is running.

If the fridge isn't working on 12v then you have to find the relays as spykal has said above.

If all else fails then I think maddie's solution is the best and cheapest,fit a new split charge relay in the engine compartment and run a new cable under the van to the leisure battery at the rear.

Steve


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## sallytrafic

Hi Freewheeler

The cable from the split charge relay to the leisure battery is often surprisingly small - too small some would say. Just a thought on something that might be misleading you.

Regards Frank


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## 102098

Might be easier to find the relay from tracing the small wire off the back of the alternator (the one that works the battery light on the dash) and seeing can you trace a cable from there back to a relay. It may be close to the alternator in the engine bay?


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## freewheeler

Many, many thanks to you all. I have an enquiring mind and this little problem is driving me crazy until I find the solution. 

Getting to see the alternator is very difficult but I am sure there are no wires coming off it that then connect to the leisure battery circuitry - could this mean that there is no charging system (in a 2002 m/h)? 
(But there are cables coming directly off the vehicle battery running back to the power control centre.) 

I have taken the wardrobe to bits to track all the cables but lots and lots of them and no obvious relays so drawn a blank there. 

I will check the fridge on 12v scenario tomorrow. 

In the engine compartment there are something that could be relays and these have fuses (big ones) on the top. But there does not seem to be any connection/relation to the cables that run back to the M/H and leisure battery area. I have checked the fuses and connections in these relays (and they are not marked 85,86,87 etc) and they all check OK. 

I know pieces of string can be any length but how soon does a split relay kick in to start giving off enough to start charging the leisure battery? I know it is has not been working because I have checked with a multimeter after a long journey. But I am now doing all this work/checking readings etc with the m/h just running/idling in the drive. A few second or quite a few minutes. 

I think I had better stop now..... 

I will report back if I make any progress. Thanks to all so far and if you think of anything else please let me know, specially Elddis owners!!


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## freewheeler

Re-reading all these it is apparent that I must get back under the engine and have a closer inspection of the alternator and trace the cables coming off there. 
If there are no cables that run off the alt apart from the engine type cables can I assume that something is missing from the electrical set-up in my M/H??


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## spykal

freewheeler said:


> I know pieces of string can be any length but how soon does a split relay kick in to start giving off enough to start charging the leisure battery?


Hi Freewheeler

Just wondered how you were getting on with sorting out the problem and to answer your question:

When you switch the ignition on there will be a red light ( somewhere amongst all the others) on the dash .. after starting the engine this will go out , this indicates that the altenator is charging and the elusive split charge relay will be energised.

So the answer is charging starts a couple of seconds (ish) after the engine gets going...

mike


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## freewheeler

Thanks - obvious when you think about it!! The power of this forum is the collective knowledge of it's members - hurrah! 
Today I had a comprehensive look at the alternator and there are no wires coning off it and then going anyway near the leisure battery or any other cables etc in that area. At the risk of answering my own question does the absence of such wires mean that my m/h leisure battery has no means of being charged up from the vehicle battery when being driven?? 

As previously mentioned there are wires coming direct from the vehicle battery but I cannot see any relays or other fancy boxes. 

If it is the case that the answer to my question is No it cannot charge, then will fitting & using a split charge relay such as shown at Marcel Leisure (other sites available...) solve this?? But how will this affect the fridge operation on 12v when driving along? 
(I have not conclusively checked the fridge on 12V vehicle operation - I was going by the fridge interior light but then read the handbook and that recommends not having that connected to 12V vehicle..) 

How easy is to fit a relay?


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## 102098

Ok, I'll attempt to try to answer this without it getting confusing!

I'm assuming that there is already some form of split charging system fitted to the van. There should ba a cable taken from the positive side of your engine battery and led from there (via the split charge relay) to the positive terminal of your leisure battery. The earths will probably be taken off the van chassis, but may be run by a cable. The purpose of the relay is that when the vehicle engine isn't running, it 'splits' the 2 systems, that way when you are using the laisure battery, it's no longer connecvted to the engine battery and won't flatten it.

When you start the van, the alternator starts charging and the red batteery warning lamp goes out. This warning lamp is generally connecvted via a small fly lead coming off the back of your alternator and this is usually tapped into as the power supply to energise the split charge relay, so if you can locate this small diameter cable, you may be able to trace it back and find the relay itself.

Split charge relays are nothing other than a repackaged standard switching relay. In fact i used a std. 30A switching relay in my last van via an inline fuse with no issues.

Once (hopefully!) you have located the split charge relay, you can check with a test lamp or multimeter as to whether is's energising when the engine is started and from there, whether the cahrge from the alternator which is fed via the engine battery, then through the relay, is getting to the leisure battery.

Phew!

There's a handy diagram of a split charging circuit
here.....


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## freewheeler

Sorry Bearkit this is where it goes wrong, because I cannot find the relay. I have traced so many cables all over the m/h and looked behind control panels and underneath wardrobes and still cannot find the relays, which I think, led me to the original query about the leisure battery not getting charged whilst driving along. 

Therefore, as well as asking about if there is no such relay, can the leisure battery get charged, I was asking how easy is to fit a split charge relay, from scratch assuming there is not one in the first place, and how this affects fridge operation on 12v when driving. 

Thanks for your input. I just wish there were split relays in the first place!!


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## 102098

Apologies....

If there was no relay, then the 2 batteries would effectively be linked together all the time and as you use electrical equipment for the leisure side of things, the starter battery would be draining at the same time. Now starter batteries don't like slow gradual loads, they like a large initial load and then once started, the alternator charges them back up again; another reason split charge relays are used.

To answer your question - yes, it's possible to fit a split charge relay from scratch fairly easily. i've done it myself in fact. Have a read through that link I posted in the last post. It's explained quite well how to do it there. You will still need to find where the main positive cable from the leisure battery meets the charging system as this will need to be connected to one side of the relay, so you will still need to do a bit of digging. My guess is that the relay is in there somewhere!!!! It could be near the starter battery, or near the leisure battery, or if the manufacturer has decided to be really awkward, it could be anywhere else! 

Might be worth a few quid spent letting a sparky take a look at it. Probably fairly easily fixed once found.


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## safariboy

I have an Elddis sunseaker 2005 model. Yours is a bit more complicated but two things might help.
The back to front wiring is in a plastic tube under the van. I suspect that the relays are in the engine compartment behind the main battery.
There is a great mass of wires going into a complicated connector just aft of the wardrobe near the mains charger unit. Even if they look OK I would ease them off and replace.
I sometimes manage to switch the vehicle/habitation battery switch to the mid position and I don't think that it charges at all then.
One last thought more faults are caused by a bad earth than bad relays. Have you checked that all the earths are OK?


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## freewheeler

Many thanks Safariboy. 
The mass of wiring in the wardrobe is pretty intimidating but there is no main connector, just a mass of wires taped together and going in various directions and into various smaller connections, again all checked for good fit. 

I can see the cables in the conduits running under the m/h but again cannot see any relays. 

I have tried the battery switch in different positions but this seems to make no difference. The handbook gives no guidance. 

I am still convinced the relays must be somewhere - I am going to have to remove the vehicle battery again to look behind it. Joyous. 

I have checked so many cables and connections so am not suspecting a bad earth. 

I will continue to hunt this particular problem down. 
If there are any other Elddis owners of a similar vintage out there (2002) I would love to know if you can confirm that the leisure battery gets charged up when you drive the vehicle. 

Many thanks


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## safariboy

Do you know that there is a 2003 handbook on the explorer group website. not yours but probably quite close and there is a circuit diagram of sorts in it.
I think that I can see the relays but that of course does not help you find them. The diagrams are rather scematic but might help. I would still suspect an earth fault for instance on the relay. Even if they look good corrosion can be a problem.
if you want the book put explorer group into google, then downloads takes you to a page from 2003 onwards.


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## freewheeler

Thanks again Safariboy. 

I have got the handbook and yes the wire diags are schematic rather than a physical 'map', so struggling a bit. I am still on the scent but have got an untrained (in auto-electrics) nose.


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## 102160

Perhaps your looking for the wrong thing. If your leisure battery is being charged off the mains then you should be looking for a charger unit rather than the relay as the charging will have to go through one of those to get to the battery. Purely and simply so the battery receives a charge somehow and not from two sources at once. On our Knaus this has yet to be found (ok I'll be honest, I've not looked) but on the previous Roller Team it was under the drivers seat in the 'boxes' that the seat is bolted to. IIRC this had it's own set of fuses and I blew one messing about with batteries (which should have been under the passenger seat but had been relocated under the left hand side locker under the side seat).


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## freewheeler

Hurrah - found the relays. 
Thanks to Sergeant who told me where to look and I overlooked it, and then to Colin at Wellsbridge MH (thanks again) for telling me to look in the same place. (For the record, in the engine bay under a cover right in the middle. As far as I can see there is are no cables running back from the alternator to this area, so these modern M/Hs are far too complex for me!! 

So I have checked voltages with engine running and there is no voltage at Terminal 87 - so this points to a dead relay. The relay I am looking at is rated 50A - would this be the one for the split charge bit? 

I presume it need to be replaced by a relay the same rating - if I was to use a relay rated 30A would it blow/fail straight away?


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## vicdicdoc

Just as a footnote, I had the problem of leisure battery not charging . . I also double checked all the fuses everywhere - all looked ok but then took each fuse out and put a multi-meter across to check the continuity, one 30amp fuse looked ok but didn't pass the continuity test ! it looked ok but was burned out in the plastic part of the fuse casing.
Perhaps you also have been fooled at just a visual look at the fuses ?
Worth checking with the meter.


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## spykal

freewheeler said:


> Hurrah - found the relays. So I have checked voltages with engine running and there is no voltage at Terminal 87 - so this points to a dead relay.


Hi freewheeler

I knew you could do it....... :lol:

But just to make sure:-
You say there is no voltage at terminal 87... I am presuming that you have checked that there IS voltage at pin 86, the wire from the altenator when the engine is running... this is the voltage that latches the relay.
Also that there is voltage at pin 30 the wire from the vehicle battery... if either of these pins have no voltage then probably a fuse is blown or a cable is broken

if all these voltages at pins 86 and 30 check out then the relay is not latching.

Mike


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## freewheeler

Yep, should have mentioned, I have got voltage at all terminals, including 85. I would have thought that this one would give me a minus voltage reading but seemed to give the same as the others.
So all except 87.
So far so good.......??


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## safariboy

12V on all the terminals is suspicious. One end of the relay coil should be zero (i.e. the same as the chassis). Can you detect the relay switching?


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## freewheeler

Thanks for your continued interest Safariboy. 
Just to clarify - I have got the relay plugged into the connector and the connector/relay is unclipped from its mounting so I can get to it easier. Obviously all the wires/cables are connected. 
I am placing the red probe from the multimeter on each pin in turn - just 'gettable at' on the fitted relay - and the black probe on the neg terminal on the battery. 

With engine OFF there is 13V+ at pin 30 but nothing on the other pins. 
With engine ON there is 13V+ at pin 30, 85 and 86 but nothing at 87. My understanding was that pin 85 was to earth so was expecting a O or neg (?) reading there. 
As you said, I was suspicous so would value your input and thoughts..... 

Continuing the saga - the original relay was 50A. I tried a 30A and results the same as above. I went round some auto electric places today and they said they did not normally supply 50A relays, only 30A, so does this look like a problem with the earth on pin 85, rather than the relay????


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## safariboy

My feeling is still that it is an earth fault. If 85 is not properly earthed it will rise to 12V when the alternator brings 86 up to 12 V. The reason is that there will be no current through the relay coil and so no voltage drop across it. If 85 was properly earthed it could not be anything other than OV (all voltages with respect to the chassis) 87 should become 12v if the relay was switching but as no current flows through the relay coil it would not switch. so I would measure the resistance from 85 to ground it should be less than 0.2 ohms i.e. effectively zero. If it was not check the resistance of the coil it should be about 100 ohms I would think. If it was OK earth 85 and all should work.
Be careful because if you earth the alternator lamp output (i.e. the lead to 86) I suspect that the alternator might burn out and that is very expensive.
I hope that this sorts it out an best wishes.


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## 101368

freewheeler said:


> Thanks for your continued interest Safariboy.
> Just to clarify - I have got the relay plugged into the connector and the connector/relay is unclipped from its mounting so I can get to it easier. Obviously all the wires/cables are connected.
> I am placing the red probe from the multimeter on each pin in turn - just 'gettable at' on the fitted relay - and the black probe on the neg terminal on the battery.
> 
> With engine OFF there is 13V+ at pin 30 but nothing on the other pins.
> With engine ON there is 13V+ at pin 30, 85 and 86 but nothing at 87. My understanding was that pin 85 was to earth so was expecting a O or neg (?) reading there.
> As you said, I was suspicous so would value your input and thoughts.....
> 
> Continuing the saga - the original relay was 50A. I tried a 30A and results the same as above. I went round some auto electric places today and they said they did not normally supply 50A relays, only 30A, so does this look like a problem with the earth on pin 85, rather than the relay????


Not sure what you mean by the relay is unclipped from it's mountings but the ones I've played with need the mounting to get an earth connection. That is they need to be screwed to chassis. Yours may be different but worth a thought.


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## freewheeler

Thanks Emgee, the relays all clip together like Lego bricks, to each other, so I don't think there is an earth connection at that point. 

Typically, when I seem closer to sorting this it is raining the proverbial cats and dogs out there........


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## freewheeler

Well, just about to admit defeat on this problem and call in the professionals. 

Under the cover in the engine bay there are 5 relays. 4 same size (1 red, 3 black) and 1 other black which is larger. This larger one had a thick red cable, a simil size brown cable and 2 much thinner cables going into it. This is the one I am testing (tinkering?) with.

As per my previous post, I checked pin no 85 again and confirmed that there was 12V+ on this pin with engine running. But there should not be, as per advice from previous posters. 
But still no voltage on pin 87. 

So I traced the cable to pin 85 back thru the loom but it then disappeared into an even bigger bit of the loom. So, I made the decision to cut into this cable and make a good earth to pin 85. I made the other bare end safe and started the engine. Hurrah, no voltage on pin 85 and, darah, hurrah, 12V+ on pin 87. So I though yes, yes, there now must be voltage running to the leisure battery. 

I then connected the multi-meter to the L battery terminals but no, no, NO voltage here. Totally dejected now. Tried the control panel switch in various positions (OFF, VEHICLE, VAN) but same result. Still NO voltage going to L battery. 

Bugger this. I put the cables back as they were and walked away. Where are those yellow pages? 

Incidentally, with engine running I checked some more fuses near the MH control panel and got some sparky bits from the fuse marked Fridge, which seems to indicate maybe power from vehicle battery IS getting to fridge.

Many thanks to all who contributed so far to this thread and gave me many hours of fun trying to figure it out. Once I get chance to go to an expert (I know you are all experts as well) and he/she can have a look. I will report back but it will be a few weeks yet.


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## safariboy

A disappointing end to the tale - I would love to know what the expert finds. I have been encouraged to have a look at the circuit diagram for my Elddis and am starting to understand how it works. If anyone is interested I think that the Fridge and split charge relay are in a box as part of a batch of fuses in a locker under the rear bed so that may be a place to look.


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## safariboy

I hope all is going well with this one. it would be good to know what trhe problem was.


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