# Motorhome Virgin - problems with heating & electrics



## Baciko (Jan 9, 2015)

In January this year I took delivery of a Chausson Welcome 78EB, 9,850 miles on the clock, first registered Sept 2012, one previous owner. After driving it for 1,000 miles around the UK and sleeping in it for 5 nights (only one of which was on 230v hook up on a camp site) it appeared that the 75amp leisure battery was not enough to drive the Webasto Dual Top RHA-100 diesel heater. We would wake up in the night with the heater not working and the control panel flashing 3 reds indicating low voltage. That meant switching off the heater; starting the engine, waiting a minute, then restarting the heater. I then had 2 new 110 amp Fuller batteries and a 100 watt solar panel fitted and went off on a 3,000 mile trip to Austria then Denmark then back to the UK. The same problem occurred and I did not experience a single night off hook-up with having to reset the heater and turn on the ignition.

Back in the UK the Auto Electrician noticed that 2v was being lost as the current passed from the Leisure batteries through the Power Control Unit around the wiring to the Webasto. He suggested wiring the Webasto directly to the batteries and testing it on that basis within the dealer's workshop. I agreed to this on the basis that the dealer had said the only reason why Chausson had wired it up that way was to comply with EU directives and what the owner did subsequently was up to them. My phone call later to the insurers confirmed that the cover was invalid if the Motorhome did not comply with EU directives. I am now really worried that I shall not be able to drive it away for lack of cover.

What are my rights in this situation? What can I insist on from the Dealers who sold me the Motorhome? How do I deal with this problem? :frown2:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

You've asked the question and been given the answer, you'll have to comply.

In my view it's sometimes better not to ask.

I'm not sure that your dealer was correct to say that EU directives required it to be wired as it was. We've had similar heating on several vans all wired directly from the batteries. Perhaps you should ask a Webasto Dealer how it should be wired, if he says direct then you won't be breaking any rules. Though having involved the insurer (who wouldn't have had the least idea what you were talking about or about the effect of such an EU directive, if one exists) you would now probably have to inform them too before altering it.

It sounds as though you're suffering voltage drop. Your heating should run for longer that a few hours before flattening the batteries. That needs further investigation, Alan.


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## Agilityman (Aug 17, 2009)

It does sound like a voltage problem. The Wesbasto does need full battery voltage or as close as possible to battery voltage. It is a common problem that the wiring in Motorhomes for the Wesbasto is too small in cross section leading to voltage drop. The wiring needs replacing to a higher cross section, your auto electrian should be aware of this. As for eu directives, I'm not sure, I find that suggestion hard to believe. Ask the auto electrian for more details. You appear to have opened a can of worms by telling the insurance company that you wish not to comply with eu directives, when this not at all clear! I personally do not think you are breaking any eu directives by wiring the Wesbasto directly to the battery via suitable fuses. Others on the forum may give more advice.

Paul.


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

The insurer is almost bound to say what it did once you consulted it so that has made it somewhat more difficult. I would have thought that if you had a reputable auto electrician with appropriate product liability insurance carry out the works then you should be covered i.e. if the van catches fire because of the work carried out you sue the electrician if the insurers refuse the claim. As for the rest of your insurance cover (accidents etc) I can't see that the insurers could deny liability.


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## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

Agilityman said:


> The wiring needs replacing to a higher cross section, your auto electrian should be aware of this. As for eu directives, I'm not sure, I find that suggestion hard to believe. Ask the auto electrian for more details. You appear to have opened a can of worms by telling the insurance company that you wish not to comply with eu directives, when this not at all clear! I personally do not think you are breaking any eu directives by wiring the Wesbasto directly to the battery via suitable fuses.
> Paul.


My thoughts exactly.

I have to confess an interest here as I know Baciko personally and was responsible for giving him multiple advice on starting motorhoming. I will say that there has been considerable misinformation from the dealer from the outset but that's a much longer story.

Webasto supply the unit with the wiring intending it to be wired directly to the battery, but the converters in their wisdom wire it into the power supply unit, but then do not apparently shorten the overlong wiring from PSU to Webasto!

I think that the EU Directives thing was yet another possible piece of misinformation or half truth from the dealer. I cannot conceive that any 12v wiring, properly done and fused would contravene any possibly EU Directive.

JohnW


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## powerplus (Oct 6, 2014)

hi all

i would sugest that it is wired through a heavy relay this can then overcome any voltage drop issues and also retain the original design used by the converters this is i think to stop the unit working when on the road

might be worth speaking to the electricians


barry


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## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

powerplus said:


> i would sugest that it is wired through a heavy relay this can then overcome any voltage drop issues and also retain the original design used by the converters this is i think to stop the unit working when on the road
> barry


Barry,

I am not entirely sure how a relay works but could this not cause a problem with the Webasto not being able to read a true low voltage and turn itself off when it should?

I am pretty sure these units are designed to work on the move too otherwise Baciko would not have been able to get it running by starting the engine. This is a foreign van where presumably the 12v works all the time not like a UK van which switches off as soon as the engine is started.

As you say though, one for the auto electricians to sort.

JohnW


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## powerplus (Oct 6, 2014)

hi john

by installing a big relay
the power can come directly from the battery

the control side would be supplied from the original 12v this would by pass all the bits and bobs supplied from the panel and reduce any load on the panel wiring so that a voltage drop would be avoided

barry


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## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

powerplus said:


> by installing a big relay the power can come directly from the battery the control side would be supplied from the original 12v this would by pass all the bits and bobs supplied from the panel and reduce any load on the panel wiring so that a voltage drop would be avoided
> barry


Thanks Barry, I think I understand that!

JohnW


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## Baciko (Jan 9, 2015)

*A big thank you to all the posters*

These posts are such a big help and so much appreciated. Thank you all very much and I hope that one day I can be as helpful in return.


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

I think it's just a very cunning plan to prevent owners with nasty noisy diesel heaters from running the damn things all night and annoying the neighbors.:grin2:

Seriously though, the suggestion of using a relay switched from the original panel control and wired directly from the battery using heavy gauge cable is spot on. Only thing I would question is why your auto-electrician didn't suggest this solution immediately, it's just so obvious.
I suspect the dealer doesn't know what he's talking about with the EU directive thing, just his way of avoiding any liability.

As for discussing it with an insurer.:surprise:

You need to realise that insurers know nothing about anything except insurance, they'll just go for the easy option and disallow anything that they don't understand.


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## Baciko (Jan 9, 2015)

I have just spoken to the manufacturer who insists that they are duty bound under BS EN 1648-2 (..which relates to Leisure accommodation vehicles/Motor Caravans and 12 V direct current extra low voltage electrical installations) not to connect anything direct to the leisure batteries. They sell hundreds of motorhomes to users in countries in northern Europe where the weather can be extremely cold and, he says, they would not be a successful manufacturer if there was a serious loss of voltage between battery and heater on those units. The manufacturer of the heater on the other hand says they recommend connection direct to the battery. In the event of a claim to the Insurance company my thought is that I would be vulnerable to the Insurers saying that they are not liable because the BS EN 1648-2 standard was not adhered to. Any comments?


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## powerplus (Oct 6, 2014)

hi baciko

if you connect the unit through a relay and you use the original cables to switch the relay this would be fine and normal practice (ADDING A FUSE IN THE LINE)

you would not be connecting the heater directly to the leisure battery

for instance spotlights they are normally switched through a relay from the leads that go to the main beam bulb, s and most heavy load things in a car / van do it this way

there are lots of relays under your dash just for this purpose as that is what relays are for

relays are also called contactors


barry


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## Baciko (Jan 9, 2015)

Thank you Barry - you're a star :smile2:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Baciko said:


> I have just spoken to the manufacturer who insists that they are duty bound under BS EN 1648-2 (..which relates to Leisure accommodation vehicles/Motor Caravans and 12 V direct current extra low voltage electrical installations) not to connect anything direct to the leisure batteries. They sell hundreds of motorhomes to users in countries in northern Europe where the weather can be extremely cold and, he says, they would not be a successful manufacturer if there was a serious loss of voltage between battery and heater on those units. The manufacturer of the heater on the other hand says they recommend connection direct to the battery. In the event of a claim to the Insurance company my thought is that I would be vulnerable to the Insurers saying that they are not liable because the BS EN 1648-2 standard was not adhered to. Any comments?


It's not a big job to do as Barry suggests, it's still controlled as the van manufacturer wants it to be.

That's what I would do, and I wouldn't discuss it any further with the insurer, especially given the answer you've had from the van manufacturer. My view would be that the manufacturer of the heater knows about his heaters and as has already been said they are commonly wired direct and that is what they recommend.

You can make as much or as little more of this as you want to, that's up to you. Best let go and be practical is my view.

I am a little uncertain that such a change will cure your problem, but at least it eliminates one possibility and it's not an expensive option, Alan.


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## suedew (May 10, 2005)

We are having similar problems with our Webasto heating, one problem is the loss of voltage/amperage due to battery temperature, ours is outside the vehicle and temp around zero overnight. Thanks Ray, for your input at Newark. Now looking at having battery relocated to inside vehicle, not sure where as Garage is well away from the charging system and i think they (batteries & charger) should be as close as possible, Our big worry is that on our first night, no hook up, not using heating, the new 110 AH battery (120W solar) failed to run Johns CPAP for one night. We managed 4 nights at new year with a five year old 85AH battery (80W solar panel). 
Sue


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

powerplus said:


> hi baciko
> 
> if you connect the unit through a relay and you use the original cables to switch the relay this would be fine and normal practice (ADDING A FUSE IN THE LINE)
> 
> ...


Hi Barry

In my experience relays are not called contactors.

Although they perform similar roles and work on similar principles, relays are used in low voltage applications whereas contactors are used where high voltages are involved. It is an important difference.


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## Baciko (Jan 9, 2015)

Some points which have come up in discussion with my Motorhome Vendor's service team in the last day:

1. Using a relay prevents the Webasto Heater from going through it's cool down cycle on switch-off. Any comment's Barry?

2. There are circumstances where installing two 110 amp batteries, as I have done, can be a waste of money. The standard 16 amp battery charger which is fitted in the vehicle at the moment is designed to charge the battery up to 95 amps. With the two 110 amp batteries being used now I would need to run the present charger for 2 cycles of 10 hours each – something I was not aware of. Two cycles requires that the Control panel is switched off after 10 hours, left for a couple of minutes, and switched on again for the second charging cycle to take place for another 10 hours. Even under those circumstances each 110 amp battery would only charge up to 95 amps. I wonder how many Motor home buyers bother to ask questions about the installed charger's capacity?

3. Leisure batteries discharge at different rates and there seems to be no league table available or agreed labelling e.g. "This battery you are buying will discharge at x amps per hour under zero loading"

Steep learning curve!


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

I know nothing about the control of the heater in question, however, I would suggest if you wire the power supply to the unit through a relay as already suggested it would not interfere with the operating cycle of the unit.
Utilise the original wiring to control the relay, run a supply of suitably sized fused cabling direct to and from the relay to run the heater, which will ensure the heater does not see a voltage drop caused by an over long / undersized cable run.
So long as the original cabling actually controls all elements of the heater function, then such a set up will eliminate the voltage drop situation.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

You'll find that your fridge is wired the same way to run on 12v while driving, a small wire will come from the alternator which triggers a relay to connect larger cables direct from the leisure battery to the fridge.

For the Webasto you need to do similar, you turn it on as usual, but now instead of it powering the Webasto as before, it simply triggers the relay which connects the battery direct to the Webasto.


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## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

Baciko said:


> There are circumstances where installing two 110 amp batteries, as I have done, can be a waste of money. The standard 16 amp battery charger which is fitted in the vehicle at the moment is designed to charge the battery up to 95 amps. With the two 110 amp batteries being used now I would need to run the present charger for 2 cycles of 10 hours each - something I was not aware of.


I can't agree with your dealer on that one. It's always going to be better to have two batteries to share the load rather than one.

I was told the same by someone else but what both of these people failed to take into consideration was that a discharge of let's say 25 amps will take the same amount of effort for the battery charger to replace whether it's in one battery or two. From a battery point of view the two batteries should be healthier than one battery that's been deep discharged on a regular basis. The drawback is of course that5 you have two batteries to buy and eventually replace.

As I see it a 16 amp charger should be able to cope with two batteries.



Baciko said:


> Leisure batteries discharge at different rates and there seems to be no league table available or agreed labelling e.g. "This battery you are buying will discharge at x amps per hour under zero loading"


Some batteries labelled as '110' are not 110amps, they aren't anywhere near but there is no legislation against this. Have a look at this Caravan Club investigation:

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/13871919/ccmnovtechnical.pdf?type=archive

Unfortunately whilst they tested a number of batteries the results were not fully published and for me they did not go far enough in 'outing' the offending makes/models.

JohnW"


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## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

Baciko said:


> With the two 110 amp batteries being used now I would need to run the present charger for 2 cycles of 10 hours each - something I was not aware of. Two cycles requires that the Control panel is switched off after 10 hours, left for a couple of minutes, and switched on again for the second charging cycle to take place for another 10 hours.


I don't think this information is right either. As I understand it, a three stage smart charger (which you have fitted) initially puts in a large charge which is what you were told I believe, that part is correct but your dealer seemed to think it was time limited, whereas in fact it is voltage limited. When the battery reaches around 13.5v then the charger switches to its second stage. Therefore, the lower the state of charge at the start of charging leads to a longer initial period. Therefore it does not make much difference whether you have one battery or two.

Switching off the charger for 10 minutes will not make it go through another full cycle because it will be reading a battery voltage that is quite high, possibly that high that it will not come back on until the voltage has dropped somewhat.



Baciko said:


> Even under those circumstances each 110 amp battery would only charge up to 95 amps. I wonder how many Motor home buyers bother to ask questions about the installed charger's capacity?


I think you misheard the dealer here. I believe he said that it was only designed to charge the original factory fitted 95amp battery, given long enough and assuming it didn't die of overheating it would charge a battery of any size, certainly a 110amp.

JohnW


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## mgdavid (Nov 27, 2014)

I agree; when I read the post my first thought was 'the dealer's told you a load of old tosh'.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

The charger should be rated high enough to charge the battery bank in a reasonable time, but what is a reasonable time, and at what point of the state of discharge does the charging begin, for instance I have a bank of 3 x 125ah batteries; but only 5 amp smart charger, however it never sees a discharged battery as it only gets used when on my drive and is put on as soon as I get home or more usually some time the next day: so it has very little to do other than top it up and then float charge, of course my system is fully home made form part available, to suite my needs, no need for a large charger, if it ever needs a bigger one due to different usage, it's an easy swap out.


So there is no one size fits all, a general 10% of the batteries amp hours as a starting point, so I have to have a 37.5 amp charger, err, I think not.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Baciko said:


> Some points which have come up in discussion with my Motorhome Vendor's service team in the last day:
> 
> 1. Using a relay prevents the Webasto Heater from going through it's cool down cycle on switch-off. Any comment's Barry?
> 
> ...


I read this post and thought the following.

It is largely incorrect. The dealer obviously has little knowledge of the topic. If you want to believe what the dealer has told you that's fine but please bear in mind that there are a good few people on here who do know what they are talking about. One thing you can be certain of and that is that if a poster on here posts incorrect information several more people will come along and correct them very quickly.

So you need to decide whether you want to believe what's posted here, in public, and open to immediate challenge/correction by what is quite an expert panel or what an individual dealer whose level of expertise is unknown tells you one to one in private, while quite possibly trying to avoid spending money helping you rectify your problem.

By the way, I don't include myself in the expert category, though I have a good many years experience and that leads me to believe that your dealer does not really understand this topic. Alternatively he may be giving you duff information deliberately in order to save money.

It's kind of people to keep on giving good information in the face of what looks rather like a refusal to believe it. I had decided to give up and just read on for the amusement value, Alan.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

*This might help to understand charging and chargers*


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