# Repost about sick Rapido



## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

I am reposting this in the hope that someone who missed the last post might see it and come up with a solution!

Rapido on Ducato 2.8 chassis has performed brilliantly for nearly two years.

Had a major service - no problems.

300 miles later, engine misfire (like running out of fuel) and engine warning light on.

Cleared for two miles, came back again.

No fault code recorded on computer.

Servicing dealer about to change cam sensor and crank sensor (they have already changed fuel filter)

Any thoughts?

Thanks to those who made suggestions in the past.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

I am not a mechanic or diesel expert but one thing comes to my (simple) mind, you describe it as "like running out of fuel" - is the pump delivering the correct pressure?

My simple mind tells me that diesels work by injecting the fuel into the cylinder at the right time of compression - that means the pressure must be high enough to actually do it.

No idea if I am talking through the wrong part of my anatomy but just a thought - feel free to ignore or explain why I am wrong.....

Dave


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

Penquin said:


> I am not a mechanic or diesel expert but one thing comes to my (simple) mind, you describe it as "like running out of fuel" - is the pump delivering the correct pressure?
> 
> My simple mind tells me that diesels work by injecting the fuel into the cylinder at the right time of compression - that means the pressure must be high enough to actually do it.
> 
> ...


That was my thought as well and I did mention it. I can only assume they have checked...............??

Many thanks


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## MrWez (Sep 25, 2011)

Not a mechanic either but I've owned diesels for over 20 years, the only time I had something like this was when I had a cracked injector pipe, it was sucking in air.

MrWez


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

MrWez said:


> Not a mechanic either but I've owned diesels for over 20 years, the only time I had something like this was when I had a cracked injector pipe, it was sucking in air.
> 
> MrWez


Was that an intermittent fault?


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

can I ask,in the major service, did this include a cam belt change.Is a cam belt change due,is there any strange/unusual noises from engine.
I also ask is the garage a Fiat approved and has the correct testing equipement and is updated.It could also be a cracked sensor.Lastly perhaps it might well be best to fit a reinforced clear hose between the the filter and engine to check for air bubbles.I take it that the pipe to the injectors has been disconected on each and checked for delivery amounts, hose and container at hand for this.


cabby


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## rugbyken (Jan 16, 2006)

mine cut out on me then restarted but ran with light on this seemed to clear itself overnight started and ran normally next day, i was panicking over having had it remapped contacted garage and was told it was a valve? in the exhaust fouled up by using cheap fuel add an additive will be fine, did this not another problem in 5000 further miles,
just my luck it will cut out 2morrow


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## Mike48 (May 1, 2005)

Water in the diesel?


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## Hydrocell (Jan 29, 2011)

Hi bazzeruk

It may be worth taken the fuel filter off, cleaning it or better still change it, this is some thing that’s easy to do and if you have any water in there you can kill two birds with the same stone.

The fuel filter can be found on the right hand side looking in the engine bay at the back fixed to the firewall by the side of the heater intake.

Hope this helps

Regards
Ray


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## MrWez (Sep 25, 2011)

bazzeruk said:


> MrWez said:
> 
> 
> > Not a mechanic either but I've owned diesels for over 20 years, the only time I had something like this was when I had a cracked injector pipe, it was sucking in air.
> ...


Initially yes, it could falter under acceleration and almost cut out when you took your foot off the pedal, it soon became a permanent fault which was easy to spot, when you accelerated fuel squirted out of the offending article, as soon as you eased off it would suck air in and begin to die unless you dabbed the accelerator.

Getting it home was a game because as you approached a junction you'd be dancing a little jig changing down using the clutch and braking but giving the accelerator a little dab all at the same time. Fortunately I didn't have too far to go to get home.

The pipe had cracked just behind the flare on the pipe in the union where it connected to the injector.

Good job it was a diesel, I'm sure it would have caught fire had it been a petrol with a similar fault. All that diesel squirting over the engine gave it a good clean though!

MrWez


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## ttcharlie (Nov 29, 2011)

Sorry, I cant add any further ideas about the solution to your problem but I ahve heard friends who have had 'unsolvable problems' with modern diesel engines recommend DTM Diesel specialists in Bristol.

No connection to me but they have helped a couple of friends and not that far from chippenham.

Good luck on getting it sorted.


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

cabby said:


> can I ask,in the major service, did this include a cam belt change.Is a cam belt change due,is there any strange/unusual noises from engine.
> I also ask is the garage a Fiat approved and has the correct testing equipement and is updated.It could also be a cracked sensor.Lastly perhaps it might well be best to fit a reinforced clear hose between the the filter and engine to check for air bubbles.I take it that the pipe to the injectors has been disconected on each and checked for delivery amounts, hose and container at hand for this.
> 
> cabby


No, Cabbie - wasn't major enough for cambelt. No strange noises. The garage isn't Fiat, but has access to latest equipment. I will pass on the comments - thanks


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

Mike48 said:


> Water in the diesel?


 I would hope they have checked the diesel, but will ask - thanks


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

Hydrocell said:


> Hi bazzeruk
> 
> It may be worth taken the fuel filter off, cleaning it or better still change it, this is some thing that's easy to do and if you have any water in there you can kill two birds with the same stone.
> 
> ...


Hi, Ray. Yes, they changed the filter for a Fiat one, as they fitted a pattern one during the service and wanted to make sure that wasn't the problem


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## Spiritofherald (May 18, 2012)

Unfortunately it could be many things. Does it only happen after a few miles? If so try driving with the fuel filler cap (be careful as this against the law) and see if it clears the problem. If so then you have a blocked either in the filler cap or teh filler neck (depends on how it's designed) causing a vacuum as the fuel level drops. This is often accompanied but a sudden inrush of air and a 'pop' as you remove the filer cap.


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

Spiritofherald said:


> Unfortunately it could be many things. Does it only happen after a few miles? If so try driving with the fuel filler cap (be careful as this against the law) and see if it clears the problem. If so then you have a blocked either in the filler cap or teh filler neck (depends on how it's designed) causing a vacuum as the fuel level drops. This is often accompanied but a sudden inrush of air and a 'pop' as you remove the filer cap.


Mentioned this to them - they had not heard of it! Thanks


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## fatboy6 (Feb 26, 2007)

*missing*

Hi bazzeruki a few questions how many miles has it done .how old is the camper . is it turbo. if yes ask them to check the egr valve hope this helps


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

*Re: missing*



fatboy6 said:


> Hi bazzeruki a few questions how many miles has it done .how old is the camper . is it turbo. if yes ask them to check the egr valve hope this helps


30 odd thousand. 2004, 2.8 turbo. Will ask them to check, thanks.

Cheers


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

Silverknight Rescue have now moved it for me to commercial vehicle specialist.


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## sideways (Jun 2, 2008)

If its a JTD which i suspect at 2004 it will be, it wont have any injector pipes as its common rail not mechanical injection. the only constructive thing i can ask you is are you sufficiently mechanically minded to know whether its a general misfire or is it going off a cylinder,
Tthe reason i ask is there was a problem with some of them with the injector wiring being too tight at one end i cant remember whether its 1 or 4 this put strain on the plug and lost the connection to the injector, a shot in the dark but youve nothing to lose.


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## minkymoo (Mar 4, 2008)

*RAPIDO MISFIRE*

Hi, I have a rapido 986f also with 2.8 diesal, we have suffered from similar faults, one caused by poor elecrical connections on num. 4 injector ,caused by tight wiring loom run,this is found under the clipoff cover you can see when you look at top of engine. Also the turbo waste gate stuck open at times and caused a lack of power, this was freed off and we have had no further problems. 
Hope this helps minky regards
MINKYMOO


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## aircool (Jul 13, 2009)

Assuming its common rail your far better off doing some live diagnostics i.e. mechanic with a laptop in the 'van whilst booting it through the gears watching the rail pressure for spikes etc.

Generally fueling issues if its "misfiring". Fairly common on common rail engines especially when the lift pump starts failing.

You will need a FIAT specific ECU reader not some ELM327 reader for the interesting data


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## wakk44 (Jun 15, 2006)

*Re: RAPIDO MISFIRE*



minkymoo said:


> Hi, I have a rapido 986f also with 2.8 diesal, we have suffered from similar faults, one caused by poor elecrical connections on num. 4 injector ,caused by tight wiring loom run,this is found under the clipoff cover you can see when you look at top of engine. Also the turbo waste gate stuck open at times and caused a lack of power, this was freed off and we have had no further problems.
> Hope this helps minky regards
> MINKYMOO


And me too,

Mine is the 2.8JTD,2004 model and had exactly the same problem,apparently it is a known issue with no.4 injector.The wiring loom is tight and causes the engine to misfire and lose power.

New wiring loom cost about £8,diagnostics and labour over £100.


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

sideways said:


> If its a JTD which i suspect at 2004 it will be, it wont have any injector pipes as its common rail not mechanical injection. the only constructive thing i can ask you is are you sufficiently mechanically minded to know whether its a general misfire or is it going off a cylinder,
> Tthe reason i ask is there was a problem with some of them with the injector wiring being too tight at one end i cant remember whether its 1 or 4 this put strain on the plug and lost the connection to the injector, a shot in the dark but youve nothing to lose.


Many thanks - it is a JTD, so your suggestion is valid. I have now put it with a commercial vehicle specialist, they are looking at it on Thursday. I have to say that it is running worse now than when the others first touched it - I think they realised this as they didn't charge me for any of the work or parts fitted.

Hopefully it will soon be sorted.

Cheers

Bazzer


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

sideways said:


> If its a JTD which i suspect at 2004 it will be, it wont have any injector pipes as its common rail not mechanical injection. the only constructive thing i can ask you is are you sufficiently mechanically minded to know whether its a general misfire or is it going off a cylinder,
> Tthe reason i ask is there was a problem with some of them with the injector wiring being too tight at one end i cant remember whether its 1 or 4 this put strain on the plug and lost the connection to the injector, a shot in the dark but youve nothing to lose.


I think you should congratulate yourself as being the closest to the cause!!

Apparently it was a wiring fault on number 2 injector, which took them three hours to find after the diagnostics told them what the fault was.

Got it back today - running like a little gem - fingers crossed for France in September!

Thanks to all who responded with suggestions, much appreciated.

Cheers

Bazzer


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## sideways (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks Bazzer its nice of you to say so.


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

*Re: RAPIDO MISFIRE*



wakk44 said:


> minkymoo said:
> 
> 
> > Hi, I have a rapido 986f also with 2.8 diesal, we have suffered from similar faults, one caused by poor elecrical connections on num. 4 injector ,caused by tight wiring loom run,this is found under the clipoff cover you can see when you look at top of engine. Also the turbo waste gate stuck open at times and caused a lack of power, this was freed off and we have had no further problems.
> ...


You were lucky, mine was £50 diagnostics - 3 hours labour at £50 per hour - £44 Vat - plus sundries - £262!! but I'm happy it's fixed!


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## wakk44 (Jun 15, 2006)

*Re: RAPIDO MISFIRE*



bazzeruk said:


> You were lucky, mine was £50 diagnostics - 3 hours labour at £50 per hour - £44 Vat - plus sundries - £262!! but I'm happy it's fixed!


Pleased you got it fixed Bazzer,was it a fiat dealership?With VAT my total bill was around half of yours.

I try and avoid main dealers if possible as my truck is long out of warranty.I used a local specialist auto electrical garage that has up to date computer diagnostic test equipment for the majority of vehicle manufacturers.

Apparently they had repaired a few Ducato JTD's in the past with exactly the same mis-fire problem caused by the injector wiring loom being too tight,so they had a good idea where to look.

They even had the loom in stock so the job was completed the same day.


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## bazzeruk (Sep 11, 2010)

*Re: RAPIDO MISFIRE*



wakk44 said:


> bazzeruk said:
> 
> 
> > You were lucky, mine was £50 diagnostics - 3 hours labour at £50 per hour - £44 Vat - plus sundries - £262!! but I'm happy it's fixed!
> ...


No - my nearest Fait dealership is 25 miles away and I used to deal with them when I was working and wasn't impressed!. This repair was carried out by a large commercial specialist. They were very efficient and as they were also quick, I didn't really mind paying the money. I now have details of another company that I will use next time for servicing and MOT who won't be as expensive.


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