# VOSA - Amended powers from 1st May 2009



## loughrigg (Nov 10, 2008)

I'm not sure if this has been covered on MHF before - apologies if it has.

The Road Traffic Act regulation published in December 2008 seems to introduce new powers for VOSA inspectors to

impose fixed penalty notices;
take financial deposits against penalty notices awarded; and
immobilise vehicles.

The powers are said to be aimed primarily at foreign drivers in the UK or those without a satisfactory address.

I doubt if this foreshadows any great persecution of overweight vehicles, but in practical terms, I wonder how these new powers might be applied to motorhomers who perhaps err on the generous side when it comes to loading.

Mike


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## oldun (Nov 10, 2005)

loughrigg said:


> I wonder how these new powers might be applied to motorhomers who perhaps *err on the generous side when it comes to loading.*
> 
> Mike


Would this be a very good point to make to the magistarate when charged with overlaoding your MH?

Somehow I think not, overloading is overloading.


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

loughrigg said:


> I'm not sure if this has been covered on MHF before - apologies if it has.
> 
> The Road Traffic Act regulation published in December 2008 seems to introduce new powers for VOSA inspectors to
> 
> ...


'Afternoon folks

Well, I did warn you it was coming - see below, a direct quote from the Transport Office website: www.transportoffice.gov.uk : :wink:

_The Graduated Fixed Penalties and Deposits scheme will introduce penalties for a wide range of offences, including drivers' hours, *overloading* and vehicle condition. In many cases the penalties will be graduated depending upon the severity of the offence.

Penalties will range from £30 to £200 per offence. For those drivers unable to provide evidence of a UK address, a deposit will be immediately payable of a value equal to that of the fixed penalty. Deposits will also be payable for those offences severe enough to be dealt with in the courts.

The scheme will ensure that effective and consistent sanctions can be taken against all drivers from the UK or elsewhere. It is expected to come into force in 2009._

The amount of the fine (penalty / deposit) will depend upon the severity of the offence. In the case of a British National who is able to provide a confirmed UK address, they will have 28 days to pay the fine or elect to have their case heard in a court of law. 8O

Current information available to Examiners is that the scheme will "go live" towards the end of May - so, when all those motorhomes and dare I say it, caravans are out and about during the tourist season, there's a good chance you'll get pulled and checked. :twisted:

Please be aware, our teams use mobile weighing pads, a full blown weighbridge is not needed to carry out checks. I can see a lot of wine and beer being poured away on the routes out of the South Eastern ports. :twisted:

More information on this as it comes to hand.

Keith (Sprokit)


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

Keith are mobile weighing pads, though to be as accurate as a weighbridge?

Just we use them at work to get axel weights for vehicles to recomend tyre pressures. If they are ok to confirm axel and gross vehicle weight it will save me a trip to a weighbridge.

I though that they would be just a rough guide?


Richard...


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

RichardnGill said:


> Keith are mobile weighing pads, though to be as accurate as a weighbridge?
> 
> Just we use them at work to get axel weights for vehicles to recomend tyre pressures. If they are ok to confirm axel and gross vehicle weight it will save me a trip to a weighbridge.
> 
> ...


Hi Richard

Don't know about your mobile weighing pads, ours are calibrated every six months and receive a certificate to say so 8) - obviously, as we use them for enforcement and possible prosecution they have to be certified accurate. :wink:

If your plates are calibrated, there's no reason to use a conventional weighbridge, but I'd check with your "powers that be" to ensure they are calibrated.

Keith (Sprokit)


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

Thanks Keith 

I also have access to an MOT lane which has brake rollers which give axel weight readings. This lane is used by VOSA 3 days a week so the equipment is calibrated. 

Do these give an accurate weight or are they just for brake calculations? 



TIA 

Richard...


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

RichardnGill said:


> Thanks Keith
> 
> I also have access to an MOT lane which has brake rollers which give axel weight readings. This lane is used by VOSA 3 days a week so the equipment is calibrated.
> 
> ...


Hi again Richard

Don't even go there, brake rollers are notorious for incorrect weights - the weights given on the brake roller display are only an indication in connection with the braking effort calculation. :roll:

As an example, one of my tester colleagues came into the office to say he had a vehicle on the rollers giving a 14 tonne axle readout - when it was weighed on our plate weighbridge, it weighed 11.3 tonnes. Just don't trust them. This has happened on more than one occassion. 

Keith (Sprokit)


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

Thanks Keith 

I did have reservations about the weights given, but I checked one day when some identical buses were being tested and the weights were all with in 20kgs of each other, so I then got to think they might be ok. 

Must get the weight plates when the new van arrives next month. 


Richard...


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## lindyloot (May 20, 2007)

Reading between the lines IMO it is probably another way to extract money out of us!. Also it looks like it is aimed at the foreign commercial driver that come over here.
To be on the safe side I think it would be prudent to load up your vehicle as if you were going on a trip ,including water and have it weighed at your local weighbridge and get a ticket.Also keep your MH serviced /maintained regular. An annual service if you dont do the mileage would be a good idea.
Lin


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

lindyloot said:


> Reading between the lines IMO it is probably another way to extract money out of us!. Also it looks like it is aimed at the foreign commercial driver that come over here.
> To be on the safe side I think it would be prudent to load up your vehicle as if you were going on a trip ,including water and have it weighed at your local weighbridge and get a ticket.Also keep your MH serviced /maintained regular. An annual service if you dont do the mileage would be a good idea.
> Lin


As the man said "you may think that, I couldn't possibly comment" 8)

But to be serious, this has been a long time coming - the European mainland authorities have been using this system for many years, we're just playing catch-up. 8O

Yes, in a way it is targetting foreign drivers. At present, our own nationals are reported for prosecution for offences discovered - foreign drivers are simply made to remove the excess weight, or in the case of excessive hours, take an enforced rest. Unlike their UK counterparts, there wasn't any financial penalty. :evil:

The introduction of Graduated Fixed Penalties and Deposits is also seen as a way of removing non-criminal prosecutions from the courts and freeing up court time for more serious offences. :wink:

So, as an Enforcement officer I see it as a step forward - however, I don't want to be an unpaid tax collector. :roll:

Hopefully, everyone who owns a motorhome will heed your final paragraph - I think I've been banging on about it long enough - maybe a few financial penalties, suitably publicised, will change a few minds - the "it'll never happen to me" syndrome is still alive and well. I really do not want to be the one who says "I told you so".

Keith (Sprokit)


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## loughrigg (Nov 10, 2008)

lindyloot said:


> To be on the safe side I think it would be prudent to load up your vehicle as if you were going on a trip ,including water and have it weighed at your local weighbridge and get a ticket.
> 
> Lin


If only it were that easy...... perhaps in an ideal world where everyone has access to an accessible, properly calibrated weighbridge.

In trying to establish my vehicle weight

Weighbridge 1 (30 mile round trip) - in a bulk waste depot; weighing plate liberally coated in muck; no clear access; had to reverse onto weighbridge; ticket machine broken; sum of axle weights 80kg more than total vehicle weight. Would have been £20 if ticket machine not broken.

Weighbridge 2 - in local scrap yard; access to weighbridge ramped and from one direction; total weight and axle weights significantly different to weighbridge 1; sum of axle weights 80kg less than total weight. £20

Weighbridge 2 (second attempt with adjusted load); sum of axle weights now 100kg less than total weight. £20

Weighbridge 3 (10 miles) - good clear and level access; able to drive on / drive off; company not willing/able to provide weight ticket; sum of axle weights now only 20kg less than total weight. No charge but suggested donation to local charity.

I'm still not entirely confident that the weights I have are accurate, but I think its the best I can reasonably get.........but is it good enough?

Mike


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

loughrigg said:


> Weighbridge 3 (10 miles) - good clear and level access; able to drive on / drive off; company not willing/able to provide weight ticket; sum of axle weights now only 20kg less than total weight. No charge but suggested donation to local charity.
> 
> Mike


Mike, It may be useful to others to know where that weighbridge is ..... and the others perhaps!

In fact it would be very useful to have a section for 'Weighbridge Reviews' as for campsites etc. Knowing where they are is only half of it, it seems!

I have had difficulty finding a local weighbridge. Searching the local County Council website lists many, but none nearer than about 30 miles away.

Googling for weighbridge and my local town name however, came up with one about 3 miles away! Haven't tried them yet.

Harvey


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## 92859 (May 1, 2005)

*Weighbridge*

Greetings.

For those interested and live near or are passing the Humber Estuary, there is a weighbridge on the Northern approach road to the Humber Bridge.

This weighbridge measures both axles independently by driving over at a slow speed, at present I believe that there is no cost for this facility.

I have used it a few times with a motorhome.


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## Don_Madge (May 1, 2005)

*Re: Weighbridge*



Humber-Traveller said:


> Greetings.
> 
> For those interested and live near or are passing the Humber Estuary, there is a weighbridge on the Northern approach road to the Humber Bridge.
> 
> ...


Further to Peter's post If you use the rolling weigh scale on the North side of the Humber Bridge there is no need to continue over the bridge. Opposite the weigh scale exit there is a gap in the crash barriers on the centre reservation. Turn right and exit north. This saves paying the bridge toll.

We use the weigh scale every time we are off on our travels. The scale is free and is open for use 24 hours a day. Just follow the instructions and drive over it at crawling pace.

Try to avoid the rush hour periods as crossing the carriage way could be
exciting. If you are approaching from the south cross the bridge, do a 360
at the first roundabout then as above.

Don


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

ingram said:


> In fact it would be very useful to have a section for 'Weighbridge Reviews' as for campsites etc. Knowing where they are is only half of it, it seems!
> 
> Harvey


Its already there Harvey....

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Weighbridges

Pete


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## Alemo (Mar 11, 2008)

I used

http://www.eastsussex.gov.uk/roadsandtransport/roads/largevehicles/weighbridges.htm

to find one local to me.

Alec


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

peejay said:


> ingram said:
> 
> 
> > In fact it would be very useful to have a section for 'Weighbridge Reviews' as for campsites etc. Knowing where they are is only half of it, it seems!
> ...


Thanks Pete, but if you go to the tab 'Reviews' at the top of the home page there is no mention of it. I did look there before suggesting it. There are also no comments about the ones listed, such as Loughrigg has made about access etc............. yet! 

Harvey

edited to remove incorrect comment


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

It's definately there Harvey, you were looking in the wrong place - click on the 'directories' tab  


Pete


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## emmbeedee (Oct 31, 2008)

peejay said:


> ingram said:
> 
> 
> > In fact it would be very useful to have a section for 'Weighbridge Reviews' as for campsites etc. Knowing where they are is only half of it, it seems!
> ...


There seems to be a problem with this directory :!:
Worcestershire is not shown :!: :!: :!: 
Instead, we have "Hereford & Worcester", which was abolished in 1997 :!: 
Anyway, the only weighbridge listed is in Kidderminster, shown as being in Hereford!
I would imagine H&W was abolished before this site was in existence.


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## loughrigg (Nov 10, 2008)

ingram said:


> loughrigg said:
> 
> 
> > Weighbridge 3 (10 miles) - good clear and level access; able to drive on / drive off; company not willing/able to provide weight ticket; sum of axle weights now only 20kg less than total weight. No charge but suggested donation to local charity.
> ...


Hi Harvey & Peejay

My first two attempts were using weighbridges on the county council list (I hadn't found the MHF directory at that point). The third - and more successful - attempt was using one of the weighbridges from the directory.

That said, it took me two trips and about half an hour to find the better weighbridge. The address was a bit vague (the industrial estate mentioned covers a large area) and the depot was tucked away at the extreme end of a side turning (it was the Tarmac depot on Rochehall Way, Rochford, Essex at Lat 51:34:38.95N / Long 0:43:24.24E).

Checking weights could become a hotter topic over the next few months given the new VOSA powers. If we asked nicely, perhaps there might be a chance of having the weighbridge database "tweaked" a bit to include a few information fields that might help in identifying the better weighbridges (in terms of ease of access / whether or not the entrance & exit are flat and level etc. - perhaps Sprokit could come up with a few pertinent headings) and opening up the edit function so that general comments can be added by MHF members who use the weighbridges.

Mike


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## Autoquest (May 16, 2007)

http://www.chrishodgetrucks.co.uk/pageweighbridge/weighbridgeshome.htm


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## loughrigg (Nov 10, 2008)

Autoquest said:


> http://www.chrishodgetrucks.co.uk/pageweighbridge/weighbridgeshome.htm


This is one of the links I looked at while trying to find a weighbridge. The problem is that it doesn't give any indication how accessible the weighbridges are or if they are suitable for getting accurate individual axle weights. I tried phoning a couple that were within reasonable driving distance (less than 30 mile round trip) but just met a fairly disinterested body in an office who knew little or nothing about the weighbridge other than it was there.

Mike


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## camper69 (Aug 30, 2007)

Having looked at this myself due to uprating my van I think that VOSA needs to get their act together regarding being able to check your weight. 

I have looked at the VOSA site and to be honest its useless in trying to find a weighbridge. I found one using this site that I went to, but to be honest it is a scrap merchants and they are only interested in to total weight of the lorries that it is meant for. Weighing axles is a lottery depending on how the weighbridge is installed.

VOSA needs to publicise the weighbridges that are suitable for weighing axles and ensure that there are enough within a reasonable driving distance of where they are needed and given the right to use them without the fear that we will be fined to the hilt for minor/innocent indiscretions

Derek


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

peejay said:


> It's definately there Harvey, you were looking in the wrong place - click on the 'directories' tab
> 
> Pete


OK Pete, but my suggestion was for a 'Weighbridge Reviews' similar to the 'Campsite Reviews'; after reading Loughrigg's problems with finding one that was suitable.

Locations of Weighbridges can be found in various places but knowing whether they have good access, are filthy dirty, or if you can get a ticket or how much they cost, or whether they will weigh separate axles etc. are not.

The MHF weighbridge directory does not give that; it just duplicates information that can mostly be found elsewhere and if a 'bridge that is listed is visited there is no way of editing it to provide such information. A separate entry would need to be made which would lead to duplicate entries, as there are already, and end up being a mess.

So, no Pete, sorry but it ain't 'definitely there'. 

Harvey


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Just what do people see as the problem here ???

You buy a MH and there is a manufacturers plate fitted which tells you the *maximum* permitted weight. That figure is arrived at by the makers for safety reasons. If you choose to load your vehicle over that (set) limit then its exactly the same as exceeding a speed limit.

You know what the rules are, whether its excess speed or excess weight, and what the penalties are for breaking those rule.

If youre MH is overweight then you have three options.

1. Change it for one with a higher max weight.
2. Remove some of "just in case" items !!!
3. Carry on regardless and pay up as and when you get caught.

Dont forget that as well as gross weight you can also be prosecuted for being over your axle weight (its normally the rear axle that is over not the front owing to the rear overhang acting as a lever )

For 90% of the time an overloaded rear axle will not cause you any problems BUT if you have to make a rapid change of direction at speed (dodging something on the motorway???) the extra weight at the rear will act like a pedulum and cause you real problems, its just basic physics reallyl.

DONT RISK IT

Get you MH weighed in full "going away" trim so you KNOW you are safe.

I had an old Renualt based Pilote and when I put in it on a weigh bridge with 2 people, a full tank of Diesel and a full water tank I had the grand total of 14Kg spare on the rear axle (yes thats right fourteen kilogrammes!!) and that was without any food on board.


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## camper69 (Aug 30, 2007)

Mrplodd said:


> Just what do people see as the problem here ???


From my point of view and I think a few other people is that there is not an abundance of weighbridges around that can weigh our vehicles correctly so that we know we are legal.

Most weighbridge seems to be designed to weigh the whole vehicle only not individual axles.

Derek


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

ingram said:


> peejay said:
> 
> 
> > It's definately there Harvey, you were looking in the wrong place - click on the 'directories' tab
> ...


Hi Harvey. Thanks for that, you have some valid points there so perhaps we need to draw it to Nukes attention to see if he can improve on it. He's good at that 

Its like all databases on here though, the info will only be as good and comprehensive if more folk take the time and effort to enter it in the first place, we could certainly do with more input on this one :wink:

Pete


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## loughrigg (Nov 10, 2008)

peejay said:


> ingram said:
> 
> 
> > peejay said:
> ...


Hi Pete

I sent a PM to Nuke on this a couple of hours ago.

Mike


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## carol (May 9, 2005)

Pete - the weighbridge just off the M5 J27 (Tiverton) has a proper maybe VOSA weighbridge that ways not single wheels, but single axles - which we used when we got the motorhome new and were fully loaded - good guys, made no charge, but had warned us if we were overweight we could not proceed until we were the correct weight.

Carol


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## Chausson (Oct 17, 2006)

Forgive me for placing this post here.

I have just added a weighbridge to the data list it's called Lock's Yard in Bridgend Borough


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

camper69 said:


> Having looked at this myself due to uprating my van I think that VOSA needs to get their act together regarding being able to check your weight.
> 
> I have looked at the VOSA site and to be honest its useless in trying to find a weighbridge. I found one using this site that I went to, but to be honest it is a scrap merchants and they are only interested in to total weight of the lorries that it is meant for. Weighing axles is a lottery depending on how the weighbridge is installed.
> 
> ...


Hi Derek

Firstly, I read your post with great interest, But, please tell me why VOSA should get it's act together? :?

We are not there to act as public weighbridges - far from it - we are an Enforcement Agency and the sole purpose of our weighbridges is to carry out enforcement of "overweight" vehicles. 

Most of us will, if asked properly and at a convenient time, weigh your vehicle for you, and give you a certificate of weight - no charge. 

But, it's only out of kindness and we are quite within our rights to prohibit any overweight vehicle from being driven until the weight has been reduced to the legal maximums shown on the VIN plate or, in the case of a "plated" vehicle, to the weights shown on the plate (often referred to as the "Ministry Plate" - the truckers amongst us will know exactly what I mean). :wink:

Congratulations to all those on this forum who take the question of weight (I'm referring to your vehicle, not you personally) seriously. I rejoice in the fact that people do actually come and ask me to weigh their motorhomes - I have never yet failed to advise on what needs to be done to a particular vehicle to get it within the legal limits, and, provided it is not too far over the limit, sent them on their way to get it sorted out, with an invitation to come back again when they think it's right - fined to the hilt - if only! A few well publicised cases involving motorhome overloading might just get the message across. 8)



> Just what do people see as the problem here ???
> 
> You buy a MH and there is a manufacturers plate fitted which tells you the maximum permitted weight. That figure is arrived at by the makers for safety reasons. If you choose to load your vehicle over that (set) limit then its exactly the same as exceeding a speed limit.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that Mrplodd - I was starting to think I was a lonely voice. :roll:

If it was possible to have a fully up to date list of all the weighbridges available in this country it would be great - unfortunately, as I've pointed out on more than one occasion, public weighbridges are few and far between these days, they were all run by County and Borough Councils, and as I'm sure you're aware, cash strapped councils will cut any service which isn't making money - weighbridges being a case in point - they're expensive to install, maintain and need to be manned, therefore wages for the operator. :x I don't think that Chris Hodges site - http://www.chrishodgetrucks.co.uk/pageweighbridge/weighbridgeshome.htm - is up to date either, in fact I know for certain that a couple of the weighbridges shown for Cumbria no longer exist - British Fuels, London Road, Carlisle disappeared some 5 years ago and the site is now a B & Q store

Your only other choice is a privately operated weighbridge, if you can find an animal feed mill or factory producing goods into which raw materials are brought regularly (for instance the "sugar beet" factories in East Anglia) and provided the operator is not averse, then that's your best bet.

Someone mentioned that most weighbridges are designed to weigh only the Gross Vehicle Weight, true, but it is possible, given certain criteria, to split weigh on a plate bridge - I've described how to do this in "A Guide to Motorhome Weights and Terms used " in the 'Useful' downloads section. I've used this method many times with very accurate results

Please, please, don't knock VOSA (never thought I'd be saying that  ), because you aren't able to find a weighbridge close to you - it's not our job to find them - if there is a VOSA weighbridge site database, and I've never come across it, I would hazard a guess that it needs updating, as do all databases, on a regular basis. We do not have the manpower to do everything, we have too many other things, which are considered more important, to take care of without worrying about weighbridge databases.

A bit long, but rant over. Again, congratulations to all who really want to stay legal and are doing something about it - if I'm able to assist with anything in connection with weight and weighing, please don't hesitate to contact me - either on the forum or by PM, just don't expect all VOSA Examiners to be the same - they may have too many other things to do.

Keith (Sprokit)


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Getting the axle weights for a MH is not difficult (providing its not a tag axle jobby)

Position MH with BOTH axles on the weighing plate = Gross weight
Position MH with REAR axle just OFF weigh plate = FRONT axle weight
Position MH with FRONT axle just OFF weigh plate = REAR axle weight.

NONE of the weights must exceed those on your manufacturers weight plate.

Simple or what (as I said multi axles do pose a bit more of a problem !!!


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Mrplodd said:


> Getting the axle weights for a MH is not difficult (providing its not a tag axle jobby)
> 
> Position MH with BOTH axles on the weighing plate = Gross weight
> Position MH with REAR axle just OFF weigh plate = FRONT axle weight
> ...


As long as the approach and exit is approximately horizontal, a local weighbridge to me has very steep access important to consider if you are axle weighing a short wheelbase vehicle.


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## loughrigg (Nov 10, 2008)

Mrplodd said:


> Getting the axle weights for a MH is not difficult (providing its not a tag axle jobby)
> 
> Position MH with BOTH axles on the weighing plate = Gross weight
> Position MH with REAR axle just OFF weigh plate = FRONT axle weight
> ...


The theory is very very simple. The practice is a tad more difficult. I take it that you have access to a weighbridge with flat and level access and exit, so can follow the procedure set out in Sprokit's download.

Many of the weighbridges I have contacted are positioned to allow only one way access and/or have steep metal ramps to access the plate (because they are set *on* the ground rather than *in* the ground. With the MH sitting with the "non-weighed" wheels 18 inches or so below the "weighed" wheels and the MH pitched at an angle of 10 - 15 degrees, the resultant weights are going to be, let us say, a little off.

Mike


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## camper69 (Aug 30, 2007)

sprokit said:


> camper69 said:
> 
> 
> > Having looked at this myself due to uprating my van I think that VOSA needs to get their act together regarding being able to check your weight.
> ...


Keith

What I was trying to say and may have come over too strong was that in order to comply with the law we need to have the correct tools available. One of the ways to do that would be if there was list of weighbridge where we could go to that we trusted the results. Generally at the moment this is only ones operated by VOSA.

If these were more prominently advertised it would help. It seems daft to me that they don't have a list on there web site. Even if they were not manned full time but just left in a state that you could roll over and check your weight it would be a help. At the moment we are using weighbridge and relying on the generosity of the operator to help us out.

Derek


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

camper69 said:


> What I was trying to say and may have come over too strong was that in order to comply with the law we need to have the correct tools available. One of the ways to do that would be if there was list of weighbridge where we could go to that we trusted the results. Generally at the moment this is only ones operated by VOSA.
> 
> If these were more prominently advertised it would help. It seems daft to me that they don't have a list on there web site. Even if they were not manned full time but just left in a state that you could roll over and check your weight it would be a help. At the moment we are using weighbridge and relying on the generosity of the operator to help us out.
> 
> Derek


Derek

As I said, quite plainly I hope, VOSA weighbridges are not "public weighbridges", they are not there for anyone to use except Examiners engaged in carrying out weight checks, so it would be of little use to advertise them, they're simply *not officially available to the general public*. We are not there to provide "the correct tools", no matter whether we'd like to or not.

Don't take this the wrong way, if you want to know where a calibrated weighbridge is located ,don't bother VOSA, ask your local Trading Standards office - they are the people responsible for calibrating all "trade" weighbridges, hey, they're even responsible for calibrating ours.

Oh, by the way, to those with "tag" axles, it's no different weighing a three axle tag to weighing a two axle vehicle - for weighing purposes the two "closely spaced axles" are classed as "compensating axles" and may be weighed together, the separate axle permitted weights are added together (e.g. 2 x 1650 kg = 3,300 kg) and compared against the "actual" weight of the two axles weighed together, provided the sum of the two axles is less than the permitted weight, there's no problem.

Keith (Sprokit)


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

sprokit said:


> I was starting to think I was a lonely voice. :roll:


I've not joined in because you're covering all the bases with panache.  Good thread, well presented.

Dougie.


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