# T25 Best campervan ever?



## 97270 (Jan 14, 2006)

In my opinion, having endured others, I have come to the conclusion after 30 years that the VW t25 auto sleeper/westfalia .is ,has ,the best layout ever, almost like VW "invented" the campervan then perfected it over many years
...reasons?..well there are many, but the overriding ones are a/ layout..b/ tardis effect..c/..usability..d/ cuteness..d/..happiness
I'm afraid, in my opinion the biggest disaster to hit campers was a front engine ,ruining the balance of useful space versus useful engine :roll: 


campers are often the middle ground between tents and fully fledged motor homes..many move on , but many return............to a VW


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## 88797 (May 9, 2005)

well it all depends on what you want but being of the same persuation as yourself I would agree up to a point - comparing with other VWs the T3/T25 is definatly the biggest of the bunch however the space you loose in the front with a T4 is partley made up at the back with extra storage and low level entry. The biggest disadvantage is like everything its been left behind on the mechanics. Im so glad I bought a T4 and not a T3 purely on that fact. As for cute, well yes they do have a face but so does a T4 - its all in the eye etc

A


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## buttons (Dec 19, 2005)

Who am I to disagree T3-T4-T25 were the test bed for the ultimate in VW excellence, the T5 California could only have evolved through the perfection of its predecessors. :wink: 
Buttons


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## 97270 (Jan 14, 2006)

> the T5 California could only have evolved through the perfection of its predecessors.


So sorry but you misunderstand 
If I said E-type Mk 2..... best jag ever ,most folk would agree.
if i said Rover 2000TC...best rover ever, most would agree.
if I said Austin mini cooper ...best mini ever, again most would say yes

To include the T5 a front engined variant of the (in my opinion) superior t4, in the same class of a rear engined T25, is certainly ridiculous, the T5 has no pedigree, except that of a Bedford van.

Getting out of a T25 into a T5 is a leap of V W faith


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## 89358 (May 20, 2005)

I still mourn the sale of my beloved T25 Autosleeper Trident - it seemed to hold everything and the kitchen sink. Despite a move to Fiat Sevel Coachbuilt yuck(how do you guys get a comfortable drive!), to a VW T4 now the Ford - I still rate the T25 above any I have driven.

I don't think the mechanics have been left behind chuggalugs, the independent wishbone suspension of all 4 wheels of the T25/T2 is far superior to the T4 set up. And with rear wheel drive and a good front rear balance ( fuel tank full) in my opinion is much better. I have to admit the 2.4D 5 cylinder engine takes a lot of beating for fuel economy - but oh so slow to accelerate compared with that Oh so quiet (when you are inside) flat four!

True with the T4 you gain a boot on most conversions, but you loose so much space in the roof compared to a T25. In the Trident you have a full 6' bed, space for an adult to get in the roof, and loads of space over the cab. In a T4 you normally have a 5'-5'6" bed at most, and an adult can barely get up through into the roof space, and you have little or no space over the cab, for all but narrow cupboards. 

Give me rear wheel drive anytime when it comes to the mountains!


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## buttons (Dec 19, 2005)

Hello Kev
I have again read your first post and I must except your opinions, and I'm probably in agreement, and talking about a subject that I know little about, however, opinions are made up of a number of things, nostalgia being one that I understand, I too was a young man when the E-type was in the showrooms, ( sorry I cant agree with the Rover 2000TC though) I can remember drawling over the triple SUs and the 0-50 time as if it was yesterday. I think that to an extent you are letting nostalgia mist your view of the T4-T5, the t5 California has 174bhp and 400Nm of grunt top speed of 117mph, the engine and campervan layout are packed with new innervations, the engine is totally drive belt free, the economy is second to none, the refinement is exceptional, it too has a tardis effect with not one but two beds well over 6 ft long, the roof lifts with a single press of a button in the cab. Do I need to go on? 
I wonder in 30 years time will my kids who will be associated with the T5 of today be reminiscing about the t25 or the T5……………..
Buttons


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## Texas (May 9, 2005)

In my humble opinion the 'Westfalia' conversion is the 'Rolls Royce' of the T25 convertions.

I have the Devon conversion in my 26 yr old van, I have adapted it to give me the maximum amount of space. 

If I had a magic wand I would make my rear engined air cooled have a flat floor at the rear....now that would make an ideal campervan (rear engined and a flat floor) I wouldn't call the king me uncle.

Texas


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## 88797 (May 9, 2005)

Overdrive:

we have the T4 Trident and have a cavernus above cab locker with two side cupboards and the bed is 6' 2" I measured it - true the upstears bed is a coffin though!!

A


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## Texas (May 9, 2005)

chuggalugs said:


> Overdrive:
> 
> we have the T4 Trident and have a cavernus above cab locker with two side cupboards and the bed is 6' 2" I measured it - true the upstears bed is a coffin though!!
> 
> A


Well our bed is about the size of a normal single, so you have to be very friendly and stay on speaking terms with your other half....but it aint arf cosy.

Texas


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## 88797 (May 9, 2005)

I was assuming length, width is a 'wide' single and yes very cossy hee hee


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## 97270 (Jan 14, 2006)

Texas said:


> In my humble opinion the 'Westfalia' conversion is the 'Rolls Royce' of the T25 convertions.


I have to agree too, this conversion was indeed the most inovative and creative it enhanced the already spacious van.

Buttons sez


> I think that to an extent you are letting nostalgia mist your view of the T4-T5, the t5 California has 174bhp and 400Nm of grunt top speed of 117mph, the engine and campervan layout are packed with new innervations, the engine is totally drive belt free, the economy is second to none, the refinement is exceptional, it too has a tardis effect


Oh dear still not see it......Power .....speed.........BHP...what on earth has that got to do with a campervan?
I'm on holiday we can take it easy

The diesel lump you have is generic to audi ,skoda, V W, and mercedes, it is certainly not "innovative" :roll: 
and neither is the interior layout which hasn't changed in autosleeper for nearly 30 years apart from the modern materials that are used.
Westfalia were _innovative_

economy??? your's is second to mine then, as my T25 does 55 MPG......LPG It's the future!
If a T5 is a tardis then a T25 is a black hole :!:

well mine is over 20 now and already remembered as a classic campervan by many
The T5 is popular yes.......with British Gas engineers


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## Texas (May 9, 2005)

The funny thing is, when we have had the odd failure whilst on holiday - this usually happens when we are as far South as you can go in France - the van never fails to get us home, broken rear coil spring, seized spigot bearing and dodgy fuel gauge...bring it on... I'll get you home.

It still manages to 'do' mount Ventoux occasionally, albeit down to second gear at times, but after all, Its only got four.

Mind you It does languish in its garage for 10 months a year, being pampered.

In short, they are a well built (If a bit utilitarian) robust tank of a vehicle, not to be confused with the namby pamby newer marques.

Texas


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## rod_vw (May 10, 2005)

I’ve got to jump in here and offer my pennies worth.

Having owned and used a 1969 Bay, 1973 Bay, 1980 T25 (air cooled), 1994 T4 (2.4D). 1999 T4 (2.5Tdi) & 2002 T4 (2.5Tdi), all the T4s being LWB high tops, I can make some comparisons.
The bays were great in their day but soon outdated for family use by the T25. The T25 is wider than the T4 and 14 inches longer in the body than the SWB T4.
Without putting a tape measure to the LWB T4 and the T25 it is hard to believe that the measurement from rear of driver’s seat to rear window is almost identical. Why on earth any converter bothered with the SWB T4 I will never know (except for the higher price).

Yes Texas the bed is cosy in all VWs and I agree the Westfalia is the Rolls Royce in construction but I think the Devon Moonraker had the edge in design. My Son runs a 1982 T25 Westfalia Joker, the one with the wide rear seat, by the way.

As for the LWB / SWB argument Chuggalugs will find with a LWB will give him room to make a cuppa with the bed made up. Again, why did they bother with the SWB for a camper??

No, I haven’t said which I think is best because they all are (were)! It just depends what you want from a camper.

Kevtherev -- BHP etc. matter a lot when the camper is also used as a business motor. I remember attending many of the UK’s VW shows with the T25, the journey was much more of a chore then than now with the 102bhp T4. The blue T4 in my Avatar is the 1999 model.

By the way if you are a VW Camper fanatic have you seen the new book ‘VW Camper - The Inside Story’ by David Eccles? Have a look at my website….


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## 88797 (May 9, 2005)

Actually ours is the SWB and we can make a cup of tea, have a wash and go to the loo (if you get the portapotty out first) with the bed made up!!

and the fact that autosleepers havent changed in 30 years is testiment to the fact that they got it right first time!

A


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## Texas (May 9, 2005)

I measured the interior of our van once, from windscreen to tailgate 11foot X 5 footish wide, what with all the internal fittings I wonder how we manage living in it for 4,000 miles at a time....the mind boggles.

After altering the interior, fitting a 3 way fridge and surface mounted hob, when the bed is made up we can access the toilet compartment and make a cup of tea ...but not particularly in that order.

I often sit in it for an hour or two whilst it is hibernating in the garage...sad I know!

Texas


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## buttons (Dec 19, 2005)

Dare I ask Rod....so what about the t5 California, no I am not looking for browny points, I appreciate that the T25 was good for its day bit like the Sinclair but things do moved on. I would be interested to have your opinion, the t5 and california if that is possible. I can live with the swb, choosing a camper over a larger caravan option is always going to be a compromise but I would appreciate your comments.
Cheers 
Buttons............


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## 88797 (May 9, 2005)

> I often sit in it for an hour or two whilst it is hibernating in the garage...sad I know!
> 
> 
> > Aww bless ya'
> ...


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## 97270 (Jan 14, 2006)

*Rod_vw*

As a member of Club 80-90 I will have great pleasure in recommending your web site ......some nice books there to read
have you any thing on doka's or crew cabs, types 2 and 3 and maybe syncro caravelle's? (what a van!)

*Oh and Here's a picture of my camper it's the water cooled version*








Ps it's celebrating it's 20th anniversary this year :greenjumpers:


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## rod_vw (May 10, 2005)

Hi Kevtherev,

Thanks for the recommendation, maybe see you at Dubfreeze?

Do I take it that the elevation roof blew off the camper then???????

Unfortunately the Syncro has never ben covered in anything other than the Robert Bentley workshop manual. You'll find that amongst the 'Water Cooled vans & Busses' - 'Manuals and handbooks' section.
For Type 2 go back to the 'Aircooled Vans & Busses' section, most T25 stuff is in the water cooled section as most of them were.
If you really mean Type 3 then they are amongst the 'Aircooled Cars' but I suspect you mean T25 (T3) of the Transporter range. Type 3, Type 4 and T3, T4 will always be a confusion.

Sorry to the non-Volkswagen enthusiast reading this it's not a secret code honest.


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## buttons (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks for the private message, that is brill, I must say that I hadn't thought about the safety aspects, the twin air-bags and side curtains are as you say a real innervation in camper design. Thanks again for your honesty. 
Cant wait now for the delivery date.
Regards
Buttons.......


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## rod_vw (May 10, 2005)

I wish that I had the chance to try out the T5 as a camper, I've only driven one of the very early vans up to now. That was great, 130bhp and an empty demonstrator, recipe for point on the licence!!
I see that you have the pleasure of owning one??
I've had a good look at the California at Deepcar etc and others at the caravan shows but as yet not used one. Maybe one day.

Cheers,


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## Texas (May 9, 2005)

According to the 'parts personnel' at my local commercial VW agents computer, it's not a T25...it's a T3.

According to the VW car spares department, the T3 is what is commonly known as the 'fast back' VW saloon/estate car.


Some days it's hardly worth getting out of bed.

texas


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## 97270 (Jan 14, 2006)

rod_vw said:


> Hi Kevtherev,
> 
> Thanks for the recommendation, maybe see you at Dubfreeze?
> .


Yes ,I'm a mug for shows. 



texas said:


> the T3 is what is commonly known as the 'fast back' VW saloon/estate car.


A common occurrence ...now throw in a T1 and you would say thats a splitty.....wouldn't you? :roll:

I agree buttons air bags ,side impact bags with safety belts are better than nothing
Is it your first camper the T5?

* air bags infants and children a warning*
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/childps/csr2001/csrhtml/airBags.html


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## 89358 (May 20, 2005)

Chuggalugs

It's interesting that you say your T4 Trident bed is 6'2 = 74" my Autosleeper brochure says the bed in the T4 Trident is 1727mm = 68". I know this because this was one reason we bought the Holdsworth Villa over a Trident the Villa has a higher roof. I also remember looking at a late Swift conversion on a T4 and that was awkward to get in the roof too. 

The only annoying thing about the Villa conversion was that you cannot get the Portaloo out whist the lower bed is made up. 

T25 or T3 - well T1 = a split, T2 is a Bay, T25 = Brick or wedge!! there is another code for you.

The T25 rides better because of the suspension, it was built to carry 9 stormtroopers over alsorts of terrain. The T4 is a Eurovan in comparison and has no character.


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## 88797 (May 9, 2005)

Overdrive

I was a little confused - the 6'2 is the length and I am shure thats what it was when I measured it. - 1995 Autosleeper Trident.

I too am confused over the numbering I think the T3/T25 has something to do with the part numbers and an american numbering system - seem to have read it somewere but I always call it a T3 - its simpler.

A


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## buttons (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks Rod_vw no only had one drive of a t5 myself, 130bhp also, I visited the E/Court show with something else in mind but ended up with a rhd California, due for delivery march, it was the right decision then and I’m sure it will be in march, but a few not sure’s in between.

Kevtherev no not my first van, had a few in the passed large and small, had a vw campervan from new some years ago have no idea if it was t25 t3 apart from it being an H reg. would have to spend time in the photo draw to confirm it being an auto sleeper, it was a good van and did good service until we moved to something bigger, also run an old beetle for a while rebuilt the engine too. Could never get as enthusiastic as yourself though, your hobby is great and I would never knock it, the feeling of belonging that it obviously brings to your life, I think that is brill.  
Regards
Buttons…………


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## rod_vw (May 10, 2005)

Buttons, I would love to hear your impressions of the T5 when you have had the chance to try it out. No doubt others are interested too.
By the way, which engine version is it?


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## buttons (Dec 19, 2005)

Rod_vw my build date is Jan week 4 hopefully to arrive march 1st will keep you posted. After a lot of indecisions I went for the 174bhp manual, not because I'm a boy racer but the reviews have been favorable and I intend to use it as the only mode of transport.
Is there an interest in t4- t5s at your meets ?


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## rod_vw (May 10, 2005)

Buttons,

Take care of the licence, thats a points earner!!!


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## 97270 (Jan 14, 2006)

*campervan*

some enthusiasts consider the T1 to be the beetle! just to add to the confusion.... :roll:

buttons ...I'm afraid I have more than a hobby....more like a passion... all consuming at that.
Not just for campers..but for all things V W vanwise/buswise.
I can't explain it...I just enjoy it, campers to me are the epitome of freedom.

Modern life ..such as it is , offers a sanitised , P C correct, don't break the rules world,

the camper offers a lifestyle, an idyll, an escape to a time in england that was good,

ah but I digress Whether it a T5 or T25 your a camper, and I'm one too.

Bon chance mon ami!

The rev


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## buttons (Dec 19, 2005)

Yes Trev we are together on that, and we are not alone, your posting has attracted nearly 600 views, that must say something on a site where big is beautiful and motorway tolls for vehicles over 3.5 tons is always a hot topic…….
Maybe we should promote the benefits of down-sizing, bigger is not always better, 
36ft and an “A” frame is too big for 2 people, why tow a 2nd car when you could enjoy all the benefits of your camper in any situation. I get most pleasure from finding a small secluded spot getting the table out and enjoying the surroundings with a glass of something. They are I think missing a great deal.
Regards
Buttons……..


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## 88797 (May 9, 2005)

HERE HERE!

But each to his own


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