# My knees are knackered. Cortizone?



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I am getting very concerned about my knees and in particular my right knee which is today almost useless.

I have Arthritis in both knees and I had an MRI scan about 5 years ago which confirmed this. I am only 48. They just said its quite bad but your way too young and fat so clear off. :? 

IT all got better when I lost a lot of weight and spent a lot of time abroad but just in recent weeks they have got much worse again. I am due to go off to Europe next week and at the moment I wouldnt fancy walking to the Service point to empty the loo let alone clambering up a mountain. 

I heard about Cortizone injections from a friend at the gym who reckons they helped him. Im off to see the GP tomorrow but just wondered if anyone wanted to share their experiences or offer any advice. Can the GP just do them there and then? I heard they can have side effects.

The physio at our gym has had me building up muscles around the knee and this started to work until about a week ago when they have just got worse (well the right one mainly).

Cheers
BD


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## Lesleykh (Apr 13, 2009)

I'm 52 and fat, but they've agreed to knee replacement for me. One look at the x-ray and they said there was no point in doing anything else.

Go back to your GP and pester. Tell them you want a better quality of life and that at the moment you are prevented from doing all the things you want to do. What's the point of waiting until you are old to get them replaced if it means years of pain or inactivity in between?


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

Cortisone is not a cure, but an anttiinflammatory.
If your knee joints are worn enough for replacement then most health authorities prefer to operate later than sooner so they lessen the chances of replacement replacements,usually over sixty.
As for shinning up mountains, you'd most probably find the stairs challenging.


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## fatbuddha (Aug 7, 2006)

Barry - as you know, I have a ferked knee at the mo, but for different reasons.

BUT, I have spoken to a very well respected sports medic in recent years about cortisone injections for other issues and we did talk about one for my knee when we thought it was osteoarthritis, but things have moved on from there now.

The simple answer - yes, they can help BUT they don't work for everyone. It seems in some people they make big changes, in others, nothing. Some get good long term relief, others get temporary.

Most specialists would say they have a place but they are by no means a cure.

And from what I have heard - they hurt like hell during injection as it has to go right to the painful area for success. 

No harm in getting one done if it offers you some relief for your trip.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks for the replies.

I havent pestered them as for some time now they have been much better. I did put a stone back on over winter but I am still nowhere near as fat as I was 5 years ago so Im pretty sure its not that but I will try and loose that when away.

I just dont want to end up in the middle of France next week just sat in the van watching Mrs D through binoculars skipping around the top of some Alp like Julie bloody Andrews laughing her head off!

Maybe I should pester for the op, assuming there is an op. Someone in the gym the other day said some knees with arthritis cant be operated on. 8O 

See what the quack says tomorrow. Left it a bit late really.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

It's the Leffe. Try smaller glasses of Merlot................. :idea: 

Ray.


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## elldwin (Dec 3, 2009)

I don't think my knees are as bad as yours Barry but my Doctor has just prescribed me naxproxen (anti inflammatories) twice daily and that is helping me. As I have high blood pressure when its not controlled I shall have to go back regularly for checks.

I've had cortizone 3 times in my shoulder over the last few years 2 worked and 1 didn't but no side effects.

Jan


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## javea (Jun 8, 2007)

Barry, my wife has been suffering from arthritic knees for some time. Initially we went privately to a knee surgeon recommended by my next door neighbour who is a highly rated cardiologist, now retired. He said he would only be operated on by this chap.

The treatment started with injections, the first one was fairly good for a few months but when she had further injections they made no difference at all.

The surgeon, one of the goods guys, said don't keep coming to this private hospital, I will put you on my NHS list.

Result was that she had one Total Knee Replacement operation in October and the second one in June.

Very occasional twinge still in first one but so much better than before. It is less than 5 weeks since the second op so she is stiil on painkillers but you can see that having had one she still carried on for the second.

You are a lot younger but I think if you push your GP enough you should be able to have replacement knee/s - why be in pain when it can be cured without too much problem. They are unlikely to last you out but you can have them replaced in 15 - 20 years when they wear out.

Pm me if you want any more info.

Mike


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks again everyone. 

I will ask the GP tomorrow about the possibility of an OP. I gather your out of action for quite a while which is going to be a complete pain in the backside for me.

How long are you in hospital for?


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Chris had both his knees replaced at the same time. He was due for two half knee (much smaller op) replacements but one wouldn't balance so they did a total replacement on that one. It was the best thing he has ever had done. The difference is amazing. Only down side is that the painkillers he took after the op gave him a heart attack (we believe). He is fine now and is only allowed to take paracetemol for pain relief which he doesn't bother with.
He thinks the x-rays showed so much wear and tear that they knew cortisone etc would not help.


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## fatbuddha (Aug 7, 2006)

as others have said, knee replacement is a definite answer but I'd be concerned about having them done at what is a relatively young age. 

like all implants, they can have a limited lifetime (15-20 years) and I know that they can be replaced at a later date (revision surgery) if needed but it's not an easy operation and can lead to longer term complications.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks again.

I have just read this

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Knee-replacement/Pages/Recovery.aspx

Seems to suggest up to 5 days in hospital and six weeks to recover.

But get this bit!!!!!!!

*"How will it affect my sex life?

You may find that having the operation gives your sex life a boost. Your surgeon can advise when you can have sex again. As long as you are careful, it should be fine after six to eight weeks. Avoid vigorous sex and kneeling positions."*

Six to eight weeks!!!! Eh!!









Im not having that done!! Mrs D Will be delighted though.


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## richardjames (Feb 1, 2006)

Try FLEXI SEQ


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## javea (Jun 8, 2007)

Barry - wife went in on Saturday, out Wednesday afternoon.

Recovery depends upon the person, 80 year old acquaintance was driving his car after a week, saw him at 4 weeks - wouldn't have known he had a new knee. Think he is exceptional though!

Mike


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## tugboat (Sep 14, 2013)

barryd said:


> Thanks again.
> 
> I have just read this
> 
> ...


Come on, Barry, 6-8weeks is an improvement on the current 6-8 months! :lol:


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## Jamsieboy (Jan 14, 2011)

Hi Barry
Depends on the type of arthritis!!
I have psoriatic arthritis and have had for ten years.
Spent nine years on a mix of meds including Naproxen, Sulfazalizine, and Methotrexate.
After nine years the Naproxen caused acute kidney injury and ended up in hospital. Naproxen stopped!!
Sulfazalizine apparently contributed to me developing stones in my kidneys. Stopped.
Now only on a relative high dose of Methotrexate plus injections from time to time.
Psoriatic arthritis is an inflamatory arthritis as is Rheumatoid Arthritis in both cases injections can help but NOT cure.
If the trouble is osteoarthritis then the meds above will not help, injection may give temporary (very short term) relief but the only answer is knee replacement.
All the best


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## Hawcara (Jun 1, 2009)

Hi Barry,
Sorry to hear of your problems.

People at work have had the OP and recovery times seem to vary, but it seems that fitness is the issue (bit daft if you can't walk)

However, one of blokes spoke about getting your thigh muscles in shape as that will be the bit that holds you back, post op. The older people took longer to get back to work, more like ten weeks, but don't think they were into sex anyway!

Again this is a silly thing to say, but have you tried cod liver oil, if I take it, no aches (mostly) if I don't then aches. I use the oil not the tablets. It is not in any way a solution and may seem somewhat insulting or frivolous but it may stop you getting other problems concerned with painkillers.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

I hope you are not expecting sympathy after all the cruel stunts you have pulled on me. :roll: 

However, I can tell you that I have had Naproxen in the past and they were very effective. They might do as a stop gap measure as you will be doing a lot of driving on your world tour of the seedy areas of Europe. :roll: 

I will put a good edge on my best chisel in case you want a quick operation. I'm not cheap but I am very good with a chisel. :wink:


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Barry listen to me

You are overweight 

( looking good to me my toy boy)

Don't start looking along the the route of steroids or operations just yet

You are still young and you got yourself fit last year

Not a mad dash

But you need to sort out what you need to do

And yes you may need surgery

But believe you can sort it out

Gosh you are still a young whippersnapper

Sandra


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks.

I cant remember what type of Arthritis it is but when I had the MRI scan 5 years ago they said the joints were well worn.

My father was the same, had two hips done at 43 and knees done at least once in his 50's

He had to have one hip redone twice as he broke it and on the third op he ended up having a stroke when he was in his 60's and was never quite the same again so maybe there is a reason they dont like redoing them if you get them done young.

I am usually quite fit. Go to the gym 4 times a week including boxercise on a Saturday. I can do 50 min none stop on the cross trainer normally and was doing that until about a week or so ago. I couldnt do 50 seconds right now.

ITs a bit worrying that it all seems to have degenerated so much quite suddenly.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Liz had both knees replaced 2010-2011, pain gone, odd aches now an then, Metal Michaela I call her, but she could stop a pig in a passage now.

Diclofenac did most for her and the Omeprazole to steady her tum.

Good luck Barry.


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## mikebeaches (Oct 18, 2008)

I think this is the latest guidance from NICE (National Institute for Health and Care Excellence), published February 2014.

http://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg1...referral-for-consideration-of-joint-surgery-2

Mike


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## piggiebank (Jun 12, 2014)

Hi

I have not read all of the other posts as only on my mobile however i wanted to tell you my story. I was 49 when i was told by my police force they did not want me as i was off too much. I went to a private consultant who gave me a double arthroscopy and cleared all the crap out of both knees i was better to an extent but during that time was go
Given morphine patches for the pain still i qas ringing gp in pain crying it hurt so much. At 5o i moved to france i still get pain however it is bearable. The fab french health service spend 3000 euro a month on a transfusion of bio therapy called remicade. After over 10 years i can run again some days i am that pain free i forget myedication. You can only have 3 or 4 cortisone injections and it did not work for me. The other medicine best for getting rid of the pain is predenisole steroid. Uk probably wont let you take it for more than a month but i have been taking it in france for 5 years and would not be happy to have it taken away. Good luck. I am sorry for your pain. If you want any further advice pm me or email and we can get in touch. If you can reduce intake of salt and sugar. Best wishes. Graham


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## Jamsieboy (Jan 14, 2011)

Barry if MRI result indicated badly worn knees this would suggest osteoarthritis rather than inflamatory arthritis such as psoriatic or rheumatoid.
Just reread your post and it may be that you have actually been doing too much in the gym and that has caused your problem to deteriorate?
If you have osteoarthritis in both knees too much strenuous exercise would make it worse.


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## ardgour (Mar 22, 2008)

I have a knackered knee probably caused by a serious injury when I was 12 then another injury 3 years ago both of which have combined to put stress on one side of the joint. GP referred me to physio who gave me exercises to strengthen muscles supporting the joint but they caused a back problem to recur so I went to the osteopath. He did a full assessment and tactfully suggested I junk the exercises from physio because they were causing more problems! The gist of his assessment is to try to strengthen the support around the joint but using non weight bearing exercises aimed at very specific points rather than general muscle strengthening. 
My elderly dad shattered his tibial plateau 7 years ago in a fall and was told by the surgeon he would be lucky to walk 200 yards without pain because the cartilage was gone. A year later the x rays showed perfect cartilage - he had been taking glucosamine/ chondroitin since the accident so even if NICE doesn't recommend it my experience is that it helps when you have cartilage damage (has worked for several other friends as well)
Good luck with it
Chris


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## vicdicdoc (May 14, 2005)

Nah, forget all the medical malarkey . . . Give your knees a good squirt of WD40 :wink: 

- although being serious for a mo, I had keyhole surgery on both my knees 15 / 18 years ago & before that I 'managed' the pain (to a degree)
By following the advice of an old lady who lived nearby . . . Sting your knees with a bunch of nettles ! . . . 
Maybe it was psychology but (apart from the itching) it did help a bit.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Barry

It's my left knee, so between us we are one fit bloke! :lol:

Don't laugh, but are you sure the problem is confined to your knee? I had an arthroscopy in February and although it has improved the condition it's still nowhere near right._ (At my age I suppose it's only to be expected that bits will be wearing out. :roll: )_

Anyway - I'm having physiotherapy at the moment and the 5' 2" bloody sadist who treats me has been working a lot on my lower back, which she says was very "tight" on the left side. This (_she says_) has caused me to put pressure on the wrong bits of the knee joint, which made the problem a lot worse.

It has not stopped the pain entirely, but it's very noticeable (_by Mrs Zeb as well as myself_) that I am now walking far more normally, instead of a sort of "plod" to avoid flexing my knee too much.

Don't know if this will help you at all, but I was a bit sceptical when she said the problem was partly in my back - but she seems to have been right.

Try very hard not to limp. That will only make it worse in the long run, and it's easy to fall into the habit.

Also, consider carrying a sturdy walking stick. You may not need it for actual walking, but it helps with balance, gives you confidence, and it's there for you to climb up if you ever fall over. _(And no - I'm not joking! That's why some old folk carry them, 'cos they/we can't get up off our knees without using the strength of our arms as well.)_

Good luck. You have my empathy.

Dave


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## fatbuddha (Aug 7, 2006)

> By following the advice of an old lady who lived nearby . . . Sting your knees with a bunch of nettles ! . . .
> Maybe it was psychology but (apart from the itching) it did help a bit.


there is also some good scientific evidence that it can work - there's been a couple of clinical studies using nettles to reduce pain (one thumb, the other knee) and both showed reasonable results but patient numbers involved weren't large enough or over a long enough period to provide conclusive evidence.

this is also an interesting article about the use of stinging nettle cream which also backs up some other studies

http://www.healingseekers.com/stinging-nettle/

often something in old wives tales!


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm 68-1/2 and although I do have knee stiffness and some pain, I can get around well and only really have problems on rail depot inspections where I may walk continuously up and down the internal roads, normally I have no problem. I don't do a huge amount of excercise but am pretty active generally.

I do take daily Cod Liver Oil tablets, that does make a difference, but I don't have the same degree of pain and immobility that you are experiencing, so my thoughts go out to you.

Michelle might appreciate not having you chasing her round the bedroom though!   

Peter


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

> Fatty said:- there is also some good scientific evidence that it can work - there's been a couple of clinical studies using nettles to reduce pain.


It's displacement isn't it? That's how I understood it.

If you persuade some nearby nerves to fire they (_to some extent_) over-ride the ones which are giving you stick.

I found this by accident with a bad back when Mrs Zeb accidentally scratched it near the source of the pain (_in bed at the time and I don't wear 'jamas  _) The not very significant pain from her wayward talons seemed to take away the pain from the bad back.

Since then (_avoiding information overload_ :roll: ) when it's bad I get her to rake gently across my back - and it does reduce the pain.

Dunno - it works, so don't let's knock it.  :wink:

Dave


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Have you tried a knee support Barry?

I get occasional pain from my right knee (caused by too many dirty tackles playing football). The quickest way to reduce the pain is to use a support. I also use a stick when out walking every day (mostly for flicking dog poo into the undergrowth) and it does benefit me. When you are in the Alps you will look more manly if you have a stout stick. :lol:


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## MikeE (May 1, 2005)

I've had arthritic knees for many years, I reckon it was due to drill when I was in the Army - but the wife says it's more to do with stamping my feet during tantrums  

As somebody said earlier - try FlexiSeq, it works magic on my knees. It's expensive, but I don't need to use a lot and the freedom and lack of pain are worth quite a few bob!

Mike


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## fatbuddha (Aug 7, 2006)

hmmm - FlexiSeq - seems to be along the same lines as snake oil. unproven and no clinical evidence from double blind controlled trials.

probably no better than a placebo effect


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## salomon (Apr 20, 2011)

You mentioned a cross trainer. They are notorious for buggering up perfectly healthy knees. Something to do with the elliptical nature and knee alignment. In theory, you should get your physio to check that the movement is right for you.
Too much cross trainer perhaps ?


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## mikebeaches (Oct 18, 2008)

fatbuddha said:


> hmmm - FlexiSeq - seems to be along the same lines as snake oil. unproven and no clinical evidence from double blind controlled trials.
> 
> probably no better than a placebo effect


Info from Arthritis Research UK on FlexiSeq:

http://www.arthritisresearchuk.org/...ry-medicines-for-osteoarthritis/flexiseq.aspx

Mike


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## MikeE (May 1, 2005)

fatbuddha said:


> hmmm - FlexiSeq - seems to be along the same lines as snake oil. unproven and no clinical evidence from double blind controlled trials.
> 
> probably no better than a placebo effect


Could well be - personally I don't really care if it's a placebo effect or not - my knees don't hurt when I use it I'm not sure if the improvement is better than using NSAIDs - I can't take them due to a different medical condition.

Actually, the results of what trials there have been (and so far they are few and relatively small) are mixed at best. Arthritis Research UK appear to have an open mind and are looking forward to the results of future long term trials.

Mike


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## fatbuddha (Aug 7, 2006)

> Info from Arthritis Research UK on FlexiSeq:
> 
> http://www.arthritisresearchuk.org/...ry-medicines-for-osteoarthritis/flexiseq.aspx
> 
> Mike


did you read it??

QUOTE:

"Their assessment showed that from the scientific studies available we don't yet understand how it works or whether it's more effective than a completely inactive gel rubbed on to the knee."

QUOTE:

"There haven't been any scientific studies reported which have directly examined these theories, so at the moment we don't understand how it might work."

QUOTE

"Only a fairly small number of participants have used FLEXISEQ in randomised controlled trials. Treatment during these trials lasted for just a few weeks, so we don't know whether longer-term use is linked with safety issues.

We'll have a better understanding of any safety issues when we have data from longer-term studies with more participants.

As FLEXISEQ doesn't include any drug, it's not expected that it would interact with other drugs. However, we don't have enough data at the moment to be confident of this"

there's an awful lot of don't knows and haven't a clue in that lot. probably sold by Arthritis Research as they make money out of it so it helps support better research.

as said, no better than a placebo. but if it works for you - fine


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## MikeE (May 1, 2005)

"did you read it??" 

I did


"there's an awful lot of don't knows and haven't a clue in that lot. probably sold by Arthritis Research as they make money out of it so it helps support better research."

I suspect they have more effective ways of raising money to support research. My guess is that they sell it because - for some people - it works.

"as said, no better than a placebo. but if it works for you - fine"

Since there don't appear to have been any statistically significant trials to measure effectiveness against a placebo it would be difficult to argue your point one way or the other. It would certainly be a hypothesis that needs to be tested in any future trial.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks for the further replies.

Its been a day of hell but I wont bore you with the details.

Anyway the Doctor looked at my notes. it was actually 2009 I had the MRI scan which showed two tears and quite bad Arthritis. Tears in what I dunno. Couldnt take it in.

Anyway she didnt think Cortizone would help, couldnt do it anyway and certainly not before we went away. 

She looked at both knees but mainly the right. Reckons they dont look good and has referred me back to the surgeon for possible surgery. She has put me on Anti inflamitories (it is pretty swollen). So will see how that goes.

Apparently the Hospital were supposed to have had me back in 2010 but I wasnt aware of that and nobody ever contacted me.

It was the flipping surgeon, pyshio and GP that told me the cross trainer was ideal as it was low impact and not putting too much strain on but very good cardio exercise! :roll: 

I wonder if its the bloody Saturday morning Boxercise thats done it. I ended not doing it for 3 weeks after I pulled all the muscles in my back (remember the back thread?) but that could have been down to racing motorbikes up the A19.  

I went last Saturday and its been bad all week.

You do hop around a bit but its mainly upper body stuff really. I do tend to go at it some though.

Maybe I should just be put down. I havent even booked the ferry for next Wednesday yet and after todays nightmares with customers and an ISP that is run by Chimps I dunno if Ill bother.

Utterly Fed up!


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Get the ferry booked

Remember the year you stopped drinking, took up some exercise, lost weight and felt good

Personally I feel the loss of weight is the single most benefit to knees

That and the lack of alcohol to ensure gout isn't hovering in the background

Come on mytoyboy, sort out all aggravating possibilities 

If they are all sorted then maybe surgery is the option if no improvement

Get away, relax and try to turn your health around

Sandra


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## salomon (Apr 20, 2011)

Seriously Barry, do some research on cross trainers. They can be terrible for knees. They force the knee out of alignment if either you are not using it correctly or its not the right machine for you.
My sister, a physio who specialises in sports medicine is quite adamant about this and will happily tell you that most consultants will say go ahead as its low impact. 

If i had knee trouble i would never use one.

Google it.


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