# The Best Route to Unlimited Mobile Electricity (off hook-up)



## ChrisWade

Hi all. Some of you have kindly contributed to my thread about the new van which were choosing. Murvi Morello on 3.0 Fiat Comfortmatic won the contest, and an order has been placed. Now we'd like your advice and experiences about keeping our twin 110amp leisure batteries filled with power, so that we can stay away from large sites. We want to use a coffee machine (1260W), as well as power the usual hairdryer, mains kettle and possibly 850W microwave - all off hook-up though not necessarily together!

We currently favour the following kit being built into our new van:
* EFOY 1200 Fuel cell
* Battery-to-Battery charger (such as provided by Sterling Power
* 1800W Inverter
* 85W Solar Panel

The solar panel would be there simply to complement the fuel cell by giving free power.

Any feedback from your technical knowledge or personal experience would be appreciated.


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## loddy

If your using power in short bursts (5mins) and not using large sites why not use a generator ? I know that may be a dirty word but I would consider the option.

Want to dry your hair my Love, just press that button.

Loddy


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

Hi,

Cheapest option and easiest is a diesel powered generator, there are some 2Kw ones about for aprox £200 and you can run it on red diesel (heating gas oil) now about 50p a litre.

Peter


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## DABurleigh

PM answered, Chris


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## LonesomeTwin

Blimey! Your Fuel Cell opened my eyes! For £2,600 you get a generator that can charge a battery at an almost insignificant 4 amps. It's this sort of thing that gives alternative energy a bad name. Your solar panel is almost 50% more powerful, and it's prob only sold as a trickle charger! Plus the van will smell like you've been running remote controlled cars all day (they also use methanol).

Your batteries will not provide much more than 2kw/h in total from a full charge. That's on a slowish discharge, say a small tv. You might get a few days out of a tv, but they derate hugely on fast discharge, and would be lucky to boil a standard kettle (2.2kW) Thats 180A, hope you've got thick wires.

Anything to do with heating should use gas, it's got much more basic heating ability. You'll find that a generator is unavoidable for electrics, but even the smallest 4-stroke unit will drive all lighting and entertainment with no probs, and still make 4 - 8A to charge the batteries with.

Sorry to be a doom-monger, but I think your ambitions are over optimistic.


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## Annsman

You could try what we do, i.e. running your inverter through the vehicle battery instead of your leisure set up. We have then run a cable from the inverter socket to plug sockets fitted into the side of the lounge seat behind the drivers' seat. You should be able to get ones that match your van from any dealers or caravan/camping supply shop. 

The remote switch for the inverter, (which is under the lounge seat), is next to the socket so that when we need to use the inverter we start the engine, turn on the inverter and just plug what ever we are using into the plug hole in the normal way. The engine is only ticking over so there is less noise than a genny and as long as you have diesel you have 240 volt power! We can even run our roof mounted aircon in this way.

We have used this set up in both our vans and it has worked perfectly. 

The leisure batteries are then only used for the 12v stuff, i.e. telly, satellite dish, lights and water pumps etc. With 2X100 amp batteries we can last for 4-5 days easily. When we run the engine for the inverter the vehicle alternator also charges up the leisure batteries.

We have saved ourselves the cost of panels, Efoy or genny and also the extra weight these items have.

You should also try using your van first before you spend a small fortune on some of this gear because depending on how you use the van you may not need such equipment in the first place!


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## Boff

Hi,

with all the power-hungry electrical equipment that you intend to run you would need significantly more than 220 Ah battery capacity. No matter how you produce your energy. At least 400, better 600 Ah would be appropriate. And if you really intend to go that way, then don't use standard leisure batteries, but real traction batteries as they are used in forklifts etc. They are not cheap, but very robust, and you don't have to worry about the maximum current. 

However, unless you have unlimited funding (which might be the case when I look at your plans? :wink: ), I would seriously suggest to strip down on your power requirements: Instead of the electric kettle use a stovetop model (with a whistle like the one your granny used :wink: ) on your gas hob. Same goes for the coffee machine: For normal coffee use the classical funnel filter, and the stovetop kettle to boil the water. And if it shall be Espresso then there are good, Italian-made, manually-operated machines for that. 

If you really need hair-dryer and microwave, then these are not so easy to replace. But again: Before parting with any money, consider how long as an average you will stay on one spot without hookup or driving. And how much you will use them during that period. Based on this evaluation, decide whether you really need a genny, or whether the (maybe increased) battery capacity will suffice.

A B2B charger might however be a good idea, as in contrast to the standard alternator regulator it will make ensure an optimal charging regime while driving.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## olive

If you were to use your 1260w coffee maker, a 1200 w hairdryer, a 2kw kettle and an 850w microwave on mains you would be drawing nearly 25amps ..... there aren't many electrical hookups, certainly in Europe, that wouldn't trip out ... and you want to do it on 12volts .... scary!!!


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## Superk

Made the same considerations for our van but didn't want to increase the height with solar panels or put holes in the roof.

(I have subsequently considered marine semi-flexible solar panels that are only 2mm thick, can be stuck down, fitted to a 3-degree curve and even walked on - but I still have the phobia about having an intact roof - when you're away for a long time in winter the last thing I want is to be mopping up from leaks.)

Looked at the EFOY then worked out how much methanol you had to carry for the amount of power and considered it a joke at this stage.

Settled for a Gasperini Self-Energy generator on the grounds of:
Fits under the van so doesn't take any valuable storage space.
Works automatically - if switched on and battery drops it charges it back up again and switches off.
Remote control allows you to switch it on manually if you want to run a hair dryer, toaster, vacuum or the like.
Fuelled by LPG which is already on board.
VERY quiet and being under the van makes it quieter still for neighbours.
Little maintenance (oil top up but none needed yet).
Works when there's no sun.
Produces 20 amps.

Self-Energy EG20

Coupled it with a 2,000-watt inverter.

It suits us as we spend six months away a lot of it off sites.

You have to tailor your needs to your activities.

 
Keith


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## ChrisWade

*Dirty Jenny*



loddy said:


> a generator ... may be a dirty word Loddy


It's because of that, and the noise, that we don't want a generator.


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## wilse

chris 

is it to power a nespresso machine by any chance??

w


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## ChrisWade

*Nespresso van*

Wilse, 
It sure is, good buddy! The very best coffee imho! Now that I'm curious, please tell me more!


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## ChrisWade

*Interesting ideas!*

Olive: I did say 'not necessarily all at once' - I'm not Popeye! 

Others who've kindly taken the time to reply: some interesting DIY and innovative ideas from people more tech-savvy than I. For this reason I need to stick to mass-market (albeit maybe expensive) solutions, even though cash is tight.

Lonesome Twin suggests methanol will smell. It shouldn't, if the advertising is to be believed. Does anyone with personal experience of EFOY care to comment?


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## Rislar

Superk said:


> Made the same considerations for our van but didn't want to increase the height with solar panels or put holes in the roof.
> 
> (I have subsequently considered marine semi-flexible solar panels that are only 2mm thick, can be stuck down, fitted to a 3-degree curve and even walked on - but I still have the phobia about having an intact roof - when you're away for a long time in winter the last thing I want is to be mopping up from leaks.)
> 
> Looked at the EFOY then worked out how much methanol you had to carry for the amount of power and considered it a joke at this stage.
> 
> Settled for a Gasperini Self-Energy generator on the grounds of:
> Fits under the van so doesn't take any valuable storage space.
> Works automatically - if switched on and battery drops it charges it back up again and switches off.
> Remote control allows you to switch it on manually if you want to run a hair dryer, toaster, vacuum or the like.
> Fuelled by LPG which is already on board.
> VERY quiet and being under the van makes it quieter still for neighbours.
> Little maintenance (oil top up but none needed yet).
> Works when there's no sun.
> Produces 20 amps.
> 
> Self-Energy EG20
> 
> Coupled it with a 2,000-watt inverter.
> 
> It suits us as we spend six months away a lot of it off sites.
> 
> You have to tailor your needs to your activities.
> 
> 
> Keith


I like that, sound like something i'll seriously consider, thanks for posting this


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## wilse

Chris

I've inherited a large inverter 1200 watts+, I've just got another gel battery so I'll have 2 x 85amp. I think for the time the Nespresso will be running, I think this is way to go.
For long term wildcamping an LPG powered genny may be my next thought.

The wifes' hairdryer is also 1200w

You're right about the coffee, they are the best!


Wilse

I'll post my results


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## CliveMott

It all depends on how long you intend to be away from hookup and how much electricity to use and this is affected by the time of year and location. If you do not stay too long without hookup then consider having more leisure battery capacity first.

Camping around the Mediteranean in the summer with sensible use of electrics (like don,t rely totally on an inverter powered microwave for all your cooking) and a decent sized solar panel (80 watts of bigger) should maintain you.

Conversely wild camping around Scotland in the winter and it will not.

Although the EFOY fuel cell amperage output may seem small it helps to put what it can achieve in a different way. The EFOY 1200 you suggest will chuck out 4 amps all day, 96 ampere hours. That is equivalent to you recharging a 110 AH battery back to well above 80% every day. How many people actually fully discharge a 110 ampere hour battery every day?

Generators are without doubt a far less costly way to provide electrical power but the noise police will be after you. (I already warned them!)


If however you have a motorhome with a diesel heater, camp in the winter without hookup for long periods then you can consider the EFOY 1600 (5.4 amps) although a generator remains a far cheaper option.

My priority list is :-
BIG battery bank
BIG solar panel bank
EFOY 1600
DEEP pockets

Had the generator, used it once then sold it! If I couldn't put up with the constant background purr how could I honestly expect anybody else to?

C.


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## LonesomeTwin

A common solution in canal boats is to fit a second dedicated alternator to the engine specifically for domestic electrics. The Sterling catalogue provides an assortment of gadgetry for this purpose. Might it be an option here, or is engine space limited?

Failing that, if noise is the enemy, superK's suggestion of the Self-Energy unit is surely unimpeachable?

As a 12V power guide most starter motors are around 6-800W steady. How long would you be happy to crank your engine for?

Oh, and my favourite coffee is Tesco Extreme Strength filtered. No coffee maker required 

Also since I'm running out of free posts, does anyone have a suggestion where I can get custom windows made?


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## DABurleigh

"suggestion of the Self-Energy unit is surely unimpeachable? "

It's still a reciprocating piston engine genny and specced noise-wise virtually identically to Honda and Yamaha suitcase models.

Dave


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## Superk

DABurleigh said:


> "suggestion of the Self-Energy unit is surely unimpeachable? "
> 
> It's still a reciprocating piston engine genny and specced noise-wise virtually identically to Honda and Yamaha suitcase models.
> 
> Dave


or put another way it is quieter than the Honda. 

It is also more convenient than unloading the Honda from the locker or garage, wiring it up and starting it particularly if its pouring with rain then going out again to switch it off ten minutes after the hairdryer has done its job. But, then convenience has a price. 

 
Keith


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## Rislar

Superk said:


> DABurleigh said:
> 
> 
> 
> "suggestion of the Self-Energy unit is surely unimpeachable? "
> 
> It's still a reciprocating piston engine genny and specced noise-wise virtually identically to Honda and Yamaha suitcase models.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> . But, then convenience has a price.
> 
> 
> Keith
Click to expand...

And thats why i'm looking at them, anything for conveinence gets my vote, thats why i bought the KVH


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## Patrick_Phillips

As a newbie to fulltiming, I'm still coming to terms with power handling.
One of the things that has caught me out is 12v devices such as mobile phone chargers etc that we used to just plug in to a socket in our house and connect to the phones when required forgetting that they still draw current even when not in use but still plugged in.
I am coming to the conclusion hat every 12v device needs a switch and an LED to show when it is on. Easy enough to make but not to buy ready made.
We use a 65w mono solar cell just fitted flat on the roof. We take the wires through a side entry to the control cupboard. It is not the optimum efficiency nor the most discrete fitting but the loss is very small really and I don't look at the roof that often to be offended by cabling crossing it!
Final point is get all your lighting on to LEDs. They save so much power!
Hope that helps.
Patrick


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## Fatalhud

Would it not be cheaper to get a Taxi to Starbucks :wink:


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## Mike48

Is this Murvi a panel van? Where is all this equipment to be stored? Carrying a generator may not be practicable but neither may additional batteries given the need to carry coffee makers and microwaves etc.

In my van I spend days contemplating whether to carry an extra jumper given the limitations on storage. For me coffee makers, microwaves and the like are simply out of the question unless you want to litter the van floor with so much junk that the whole pleasure is taken out of touring.


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## davidcampervanstuff

*Re: Interesting ideas!*



ChrisWade said:


> Lonesome Twin suggests methanol will smell. It shouldn't, if the advertising is to be believed. Does anyone with personal experience of EFOY care to comment?


Hello Chris,

The Efoy system uses valve-sealed cartridges: even when the cartridge cap is removed while you attach the fuel cell's connector there is no chance of smell or fumes escaping. You won't smell anything and you'll hear very little. It just sits there and .... works.

There's a lot of negativity about the Efoys in this forum but bear in mind that Efoy recently announced that its sales had reached 10,000 units. Lots of people on the continent have done the sums and decided that it makes sense, even at the price.

_(Mod Note. Advertising removed)_

Regards

David


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## framptoncottrell

Chris,

I have a Murvi Morello and I did a fairly scientific check on power consumption.

I have twin leisure batteries of 110 amp-hours, like you; I have a solar panel of 85 watts that seems to be very efficient.

The equipment that I have that runs off the leisure batteries is:
Television; Camos satellite dish and tuner; the electric bits of the Eberspacher heating; lighting (though that is all LEDs and fluorescents, like yours); water pump; pump for diesel-fuelled hob; 110 litre refrigerator.

That's not a lot of 12 volt demand.

When wild camping on a sunny day I used 36 amp-hours in 24 hours. That would give me no more than five static days in safety before I had to make a trip for the alternator to recharge the batteries (or overnight on a 'proper' site with hook-up).

I have no idea where I would put a genny or an Efoy in our van; yours is a bit longer, but, even so, the loss of storage would be a big disincentive to us.

Good luck with your quest. (As you can see from my picture, a hair-dryer is not high on my needs......)

Dr (musical, not medical) Roy


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## eddievanbitz

Be careful regarding the EFOY

We were very excited when we imported the first SFC units in 2004 and we tried to work with SFC for some time as we realised that the fuel situation is the biggest stumbling block.

The methanol situation is very very poor. Carriers don't like it and they have to have special licences, the ones that can and do handle it, won't deliver to private address's

It is not negativity as one poster put it but practicality! It is the methanol that is it’s Achilles heel, and it is way too expensive an option to have on the van as a back up. 

The sums are there on the web site but on a Winters day we calculated that you would need a 10L bottle every 3 - 4 days carry the stuff around in quantity is no no (ask your insurance company how many litres of methanol they would allow you to carry!)

As for 10000 sold SFC have been making them from about 2003 so that is about 40 units a week from a multi million pound business, and that 40 a week would include all the units that they sell I suspect, including small units for charging, the ones that they made and branded MAXPOWER for Navimo the marine distributor, plus the units that are used as emergency and stand by power for emergency lighting in remote places, so hardly a ringing indictment of the fuel source 

Getting methanol when your out and about is very difficult. For us in Taunton a round trip of 155 miles is the best that the importers can offer us as the closest stockist!

Truma are currently Beta testing 50 fuel cells that run on LPG! Which is a different concept entirely! Coming to market in the Spring (so if anyone is thinking about selling a Methanol powered fuel cell, now would be a good time!) Voller already have a LPG powered fuel cell selling very well in the marine market.

Bide your time, DAB has PM'd you and he knows everything about fuel cells!

Good luck


Edited as the thing crashed on me 8O


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## DABurleigh

I'm afraid I wouldn't put Voller penetration into the motorhome market any higher than EFOY for many years yet.

The Truma VeGA fuel cell (strange power choice at 250W, by the way, too high for 24hr energy budget needs, too low for high power instantaneous) isn't available in dealers until Autumn 2010, and that's without any slip :-(

It is not through lack of £ or research that I am a battery, solar, Sterling B-to-B and Honda 1kW backup man.

Dave


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## 101405

We dont use or need a microwave or the cafe maker, what we do have every morning is Good cafe , with a simple coffe pot (perc) and ground cafe. made on the gas, My wife is a top class cook , we eat and cook (if needed) outside all summer ?we dont have Tv , we do have a laptop for some Movies ect , we have cards ,games, books.The hair dryer is not a much have for my wife as she takes Gas powered curling tongs, we wild camp this year in portugal /Galicia for 3.1/2 mths using about 3/4 sites to catch up on Washing and a spruce up for the van, 2 big batts which never get out of the green , even parked up over winter, For next year we have bought 2 solar shower bags and shall use them. Surely you can cope without the excess of gadjets.


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## Jezport

Annsman said:


> You could try what we do, i.e. running your inverter through the vehicle battery instead of your leisure set up. We have then run a cable from the inverter socket to plug sockets fitted into the side of the lounge seat behind the drivers' seat. You should be able to get ones that match your van from any dealers or caravan/camping supply shop.
> 
> The remote switch for the inverter, (which is under the lounge seat), is next to the socket so that when we need to use the inverter we start the engine, turn on the inverter and just plug what ever we are using into the plug hole in the normal way. The engine is only ticking over so there is less noise than a genny and as long as you have diesel you have 240 volt power! We can even run our roof mounted aircon in this way.
> 
> We have used this set up in both our vans and it has worked perfectly.
> 
> The leisure batteries are then only used for the 12v stuff, i.e. telly, satellite dish, lights and water pumps etc. With 2X100 amp batteries we can last for 4-5 days easily. When we run the engine for the inverter the vehicle alternator also charges up the leisure batteries.
> 
> We have saved ourselves the cost of panels, Efoy or genny and also the extra weight these items have.
> 
> You should also try using your van first before you spend a small fortune on some of this gear because depending on how you use the van you may not need such equipment in the first place!


One thing I would like to point out is that idling a deisel engine for long periods is not advised as the they do not like it, you will end up with glazed bores etc


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## Jezport

Superk said:


> Made the same considerations for our van but didn't want to increase the height with solar panels or put holes in the roof.
> 
> (I have subsequently considered marine semi-flexible solar panels that are only 2mm thick, can be stuck down, fitted to a 3-degree curve and even walked on - but I still have the phobia about having an intact roof - when you're away for a long time in winter the last thing I want is to be mopping up from leaks.)
> 
> Looked at the EFOY then worked out how much methanol you had to carry for the amount of power and considered it a joke at this stage.
> 
> Settled for a Gasperini Self-Energy generator on the grounds of:
> Fits under the van so doesn't take any valuable storage space.
> Works automatically - if switched on and battery drops it charges it back up again and switches off.
> Remote control allows you to switch it on manually if you want to run a hair dryer, toaster, vacuum or the like.
> Fuelled by LPG which is already on board.
> VERY quiet and being under the van makes it quieter still for neighbours.
> Little maintenance (oil top up but none needed yet).
> Works when there's no sun.
> Produces 20 amps.
> 
> Self-Energy EG20
> 
> Coupled it with a 2,000-watt inverter.
> 
> It suits us as we spend six months away a lot of it off sites.
> 
> You have to tailor your needs to your activities.
> 
> 
> Keith


I saw this unit at Pickering, I wish It was cheaper as it ticks all the boxes.

Automatic, quiet, small, light weight, runs on gas, etc


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## DABurleigh

"Automatic, quiet, small, light weight, runs on gas, etc"

Gasperini fans will think I have it in for them, whereas I don't. I am, however, trying to give a balanced viewpoint.

Compare a Gasperini against a Honda or Kipor 1kW genny:

Noise: Gaserini is 1dB quieter than the Honda. This is on the threshold of a young, healthy human ear being able to detect the difference. I suspect the difference is even less, because the Honda is specced for petrol (and I can kid myself is quieter off LPG) in the open, where the Gasperini is specced off LPG and mounted under the van floor (where you can put the Honda).

Automatic: Gasperini only wins if you consider a reciprocating pistom engine starting up on its own accord a n advantage. I don't.

Convenience: Gasperini wins, but how regularly is it NEEDED? Look how many gennies are rarely used, including mine and others, despite being a self-declared high power user off EHU. For me, a genny is a backup.

Cost: People moan about the price of a Honda compared to a Kipor. Fine, get a Kipor then. As for Gasperini, how many Honda and Kipor gennies would you like instead? 

Dave


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## davidcampervanstuff

eddievanbitz said:


> The sums are there on the web site but on a Winters day we calculated that you would need a 10L bottle every 3 - 4 days carry the stuff around in quantity is no no


All Efoys use 1.3 litres per 100 Ah and therefore the most powerful, the 1600 which produces a maximum of 130Ah per day, cannot consume more than 1.69 litres a day. Which means that a 10 litre cartridge would last for 5.91 days even if the 1600 was running flat out for 24 hours every day.

If you were needing 130 Ah every day, you would be most likely far from a typical power user. Even high power consumers run via inverters can be used judiciously so that, mixed with appliances run from other power sources, you can enjoy your comforts without running the Efoy flat out all the time.

As I said before _(Mod Note. Advertising removed)_ in real-life mixed operating conditions the Efoy fuel can go a long way. And it's not a 'backup' but a central part of an integrated system which provides maximum flexibility and freedom.

Regards

David


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## raynipper

I think the only way to service all Chris's power requirements is to buy a reasonable American RV that has all these things as standard.

Otherwise we have to accept many compromises.

Ray.


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## eddievanbitz

> If you were needing 130 Ah every day, you would be most likely far from a typical power user


 Or be using an invertor :roll:

Elecsol recommend an optimum battery bank of 660 amps to support a 2000w inverter so 130Ah suddenly doesn't look such a lot!

The bottom line is that you intend to leave home for three months and be foot loose and fancy free carrying sufficient methanol for the trip is simple not viable (and probably uninsurable) and getting more along the way is nigh on impossible.



> An M10 fuel cartridge, for example, weights only 8.4 kg but contains enough fuel to produce 11.1 kilowatt hours of energy


That is from the SFC web site So ten containers weights a staggering 84 kilos and would your insurance company allow you to carry 100 litres of Methanol?

Wait for LPG!


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## Superk

> Gasperini fans will think I have it in for them, whereas I don't.
> Dave


Aha 



> despite being a self-declared high power user off EHU. For me, a genny is a backup.


Presumably to solar and hence you rarely use a genny.

As I put in my original post for various reasons I didn't want to use solar hence I was making my choice as a user of a genny who would be away in winter for six months with the vagaries of winter weather and off EHU for long periods with a panel van where storage was at a premium.



> Automatic: Gasperini only wins if you consider a reciprocating pistom engine starting up on its own accord a n advantage. I don't.


That was one of the reasons - the battery drops - the genny switches on, the battery is charged the genny switches off.

Compared to: - the battery is down, its p*ssing with rain, I've got to get the genny out of the back of the van but first I'll have to remove all the other stuff and put it on the wet ground then I've got to top the genny up with fuel and plug it into the van. :? 
Oh the battery is fully charged b*gger I've got to go out again now and it's still p*ssing down unplug it, get all that stuff out of the van and reload it back in.

Or: is it OK to run my hairdryer, microwave etc? Sure, I'll just switch the inverter and genny on - shame about the weather outside I see that guy over there is having to get his genny out because it's been so dull for the past few days with this bad weather and presumably his solar hasn't put enough into the battery. 



> I am, however, trying to give a balanced viewpoint.


But, still very personal to your own circumstances. :lol:

So in the interests of balance I hope you don't mind me requoting my original points:
Fits under the van so doesn't take any valuable storage space or create difficulties loading and unloading.
You don't have to get out of the van to start it up or again to stop it - it works automatically - if switched on and battery drops it charges it back up again and switches off. 
Remote control allows you to switch it on manually if you want to run a hair dryer, toaster, vacuum or the like. 
Fuelled by LPG which is already on board and doesn't require that you carry petrol or diesel for the genny.
VERY quiet and being fixed under the van makes it quieter still. Little maintenance (oil top up but none needed yet). 
Works when there's no sun. 
Produces 20 amps.

and yes it's expensive compared to a free-standing Honda and the end result is the same.

It's rather like having an automated satellite dish on a motorhome - you park up switch on it unfolds and a couple of minutes later your watching TV compared to someone who has to unload the satellite and tripod from the locker where it's been taking up a lot of space, link up the cable, position the dish and all in the pouring rain if the weather is against you.

You pays your money you takes your choice no one's method is better than anyone else's just different routes to the same end.

 
Keith


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## davidcampervanstuff

eddievanbitz said:


> If you were needing 130 Ah every day, you would be most likely far from a typical power user
> 
> 
> 
> Or be using an invertor :roll:
> 
> Elecsol recommend an optimum battery bank of 660 amps to support a 2000w inverter so 130Ah suddenly doesn't look such a lot!
> 
> The bottom line is that you intend to leave home for three months and be foot loose and fancy free carrying sufficient methanol for the trip is simple not viable (and probably uninsurable) and getting more along the way is nigh on impossible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An M10 fuel cartridge, for example, weights only 8.4 kg but contains enough fuel to produce 11.1 kilowatt hours of energy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is from the SFC web site So ten containers weights a staggering 84 kilos and would your insurance company allow you to carry 100 litres of Methanol?
> 
> Wait for LPG!
Click to expand...

Wow! A 660 Ah battery bank - that weighs in with a _truly_ staggering 150 kg - just to put 84 Kg of methanol in proportion. And, in my small T4 based high-top campervan, 80kg of diesel and 50 kg of fresh water ...

But would I carry 100 litres of methanol? Obviously, certainly not: because I would be pretty confident that I could replenish supplies along the way (how _do_ those other 10,000 users manage without any fuel ..?) and because I would not need that quantity, for the reasons below.

The 'optimum' battery size quoted has nothing to do with daily requirements (that is down to us, after all) - it's to do with the high rate of withdrawal of current from the battery when a large inverter is used at maximum rating: a small battery can't give up its charge fast enough to maintain the 'flow' and therefore the voltage drops too far even for short periods of discharge, causing the inverter to switch off.

So I still maintain that for most users 130Ah in 24 hours will do the job in a real-world mixed pattern of usage, and the fuel usage will be very much lower than some posters seem to fear - see my example in 
this MHF topic

This usage included a 1000 watt inverter for Remoska electric cooker, toaster, satellite TV, electric kettle - but not all the time and not at the same time. We varied and managed our usage and our sources appropriately.


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## eddievanbitz

David:

You sell them soI am sure you'll defend them to the death

You are obviously a frugal chap and can make do! I don't like to scrimp with power and many others are like minded. This does not make me right or you wrong! We just use our vans in different ways. Heating a 30 foot RV with twin slides uses about 15 Ah when it is cold, I could put an extra jumper on but I choose not to (It makes me look even fatter than I am, and wife wife pulls "puffer fish" faces at me when I eat and drink)

Put a search in for Methanol on the SFC website in Somerset and you will get "No results found" I know, I just did it

Each to their own! Good luck 

They guy asked for opinions on his choices and he has got some!


----------



## davidcampervanstuff

Superk said:


> That was one of the reasons - the battery drops - the genny switches on, the battery is charged the genny switches off.
> 
> Compared to: - the battery is down, its p*ssing with rain, I've got to get the genny out of the back of the van but first I'll have to remove all the other stuff and put it on the wet ground then I've got to top the genny up with fuel and plug it into the van. :?
> Oh the battery is fully charged b*gger I've got to go out again now and it's still p*ssing down unplug it, get all that stuff out of the van and reload it back in.


Hello Keith,

How I recognise all that, particularly the rain bit .. Don't recognise the 6 months bit though, sigh.

For my pattern of motorhoming the solution is the Efoy. I think it's a solution that will suit the greatest range of circumstances.

Regards

David


----------



## Annsman

I contacted Truma about the LPG fuel cell and it will be on the market in early 2009 and retail at £20,000 per unit. Yes that's right you did read it right 20 THOUSAND POUNDS per unit!

Our engine is only ticking over for the 10 minutes we run the inverter for, or we switch the inverter on while we are driving and charge lap tops, phones and have even run the roof air con whilst in Almeria last summer.


----------



## davidcampervanstuff

eddievanbitz said:


> David:
> 
> You sell them soI am sure you'll defend them to the death
> 
> You are obviously a frugal chap and can make do! I don't like to scrimp with power and many others are like minded. This does not make me right or you wrong! We just use our vans in different ways. Heating a 30 foot RV with twin slides uses about 15 Ah when it is cold, I could put an extra jumper on but I choose not to (It makes me look even fatter than I am, and wife wife pulls "puffer fish" faces at me when I eat and drink)
> 
> Put a search in for Methanol on the SFC website in Somerset and you will get "No results found" I know, I just did it
> 
> Each to their own! Good luck
> 
> They guy asked for opinions on his choices and he has got some!


Hello Eddie,

Indeed I do, but I try not to sell anything that I don't believe in. I do recognise the importance of the fuel distribution (which is improving) and I think that the Efoy is a great product.

I see a list of forty UK sales outlets on the SFC website (including several in Devon and one in Cornwall) which compares to about _zilch_ before Grove Products took over the UK distributorship.

No, the Efoy might not be for the biggest power users in big RVs but I'd suggest that those users do not constitute the majority of motorhomers, not by a long way. In fact the original poster fell into the smaller motorhome category - much closer to us than to you.

And I can tell you that frugal doesn't fit me very well and being cold certainly doesn't. Hate, hate being cold. We are very comfortable in ours and don't lack mod cons. Just in case I have being giving the impression that we have unusually few facilities (and therefore small power requirements), let me list them in more detail:

Diesel heating (Eberspachter); uses 12v for glow-plug start and for fan. 
12v (only) compressor fridge (heavy user) 
12v lighting, plenty 
12v water pumps 
1000w Victron Phoenix inverter / charger 
Remoska 230v cooker. 500watt 
Electric kettle 230v, 900w 
Electric toaster 230 v 
Hairdryer 230 v 
Hair straightener 230v 
Satellite receiver and LCD TV. 
Laptop computer 
230v chargers for multiple devices.. 
Gas cooker 
Fast, efficient gas kettle

We switch between electric / gas cooking and this makes best use not only of our engine charging / fuel cell charging but also our gas - we have only a small gas cylinder.

Before installing the Efoy our power needs were always a big factor in the way we used our motorhome but now our power worries have gone away.

Regards

David


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## eddievanbitz

> I see a list of forty UK sales outlets on the SFC website (including several in Devon and one in Cornwall)


So as I said "None in Somerset" so any one running out of methanol in Somerset has to drive miles to get more fuel!

If they have a Sterling Battery to Battery charger the engine will have charged their batteries up by the time they get back from their round trip anyway :lol:

I also thought that SFC was the answer and had one and used one, and as I said, in 2004 Van Bitz were the first company to import and offer for retail sale SFC products, but like you I can't sell anything that I don't believe in.

Transleisure took it on then :lol:


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## davidcampervanstuff

eddievanbitz said:


> I see a list of forty UK sales outlets on the SFC website (including several in Devon and one in Cornwall)
> 
> 
> 
> So as I said "None in Somerset" so any one running out of methanol in Somerset has to drive miles to get more fuel!
> 
> If they have a Sterling Battery to Battery charger the engine will have charged their batteries up by the time they get back from their round trip anyway :lol:
> 
> I also thought that SFC was the answer and had one and used one, and as I said, in 2004 Van Bitz were the first company to import and offer for retail sale SFC products, but like you I can't sell anything that I don't believe in.
> 
> Transleisure took it on then :lol:
Click to expand...

Fifty-two miles according to my sat-nav doesn't seem too onerous. Around here we have to travel that distance before we get out of our drive. :roll:

I think that the logistics of building up a distribution system for a complex product like the Efoy and its fuel cartridges probably require a bigger company with large resources. This now exists in Grove - which itself is now a part of France's Trigano Group whose 2007 sales were 934 million EUR. Recently Trigano itself underlined the importance of the Efoy with its own order for 600 units:

Trigano orders 600 fuel cells


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## DABurleigh

Annsman said:


> I contacted Truma about the LPG fuel cell and it will be on the market in early 2009 and retail at £20,000 per unit. Yes that's right you did read it right 20 THOUSAND POUNDS per unit!
> 
> Our engine is only ticking over for the 10 minutes we run the inverter for, or we switch the inverter on while we are driving and charge lap tops, phones and have even run the roof air con whilst in Almeria last summer.


Annsman,

If true that makes the higher power Voller an absolute bargain then!  When did Truma tell you this? The Autumn 2010 release date I stated earlier is 18 months later than your early 2009. This is the latest on Truma's website:
"the VeGA fuel cell system will only be available at the dealers in autumn 2010. The latest developments and technical data are regularly updated on this webpage."
http://www.truma.com/truma05/en/products/detail2_en_249238.html

Dave


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## CliveMott

With luck an update on all these fuel cells and others might appear in MMM early next year.
C.


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## Annsman

Hi Dave, I was told by e-mail on 29/9/2008 that they would be available commercially in late 2008/early 2009 and would be 20k per unit.

I have just re-read the e-mail and I apologise for passing on duff gen. This information should be about the Emerald LPG fuel cell by Voller not Truma

Steve


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## DABurleigh

CliveMott said:


> With luck an update on all these fuel cells and others might appear in MMM early next year.
> C.


Just remember, MHF fans, you read the gumpf you need to know on here first. That's the downside of MMM's literary standards, you see. It takes months to proof-read and correct the spelling on Clive's copy 

Voller Emerald - forget it for years unless your 6 numbers have come up.
Truma VeGA- forget it until late 2010, it still won't run aircon or heat the van, and pricing is awaited. 
EFOY - translate your energy needs into methanol volume, then check its supply and storage under your travelling scenario, think of alternative energy solutions for you and what else you can spend £2k-£3k on, then decide.

Dave
[ Gasperini Self-Energy EG20 - it's not a quiet fuel cell; it's a piston-engined genny that only its owners think is quiet. No I'm not joking - when I asked a Gasperini owner I was parked next to at a rally how long his genny would be running, he told me 1) he couldn't tell me as it was automatic and 2) it wasn't a genny anyway, it was a quiet Gasperini ......]


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## eddievanbitz

Betamax video read EFOY
LPG systems read VHS

There will never be enough outlets selling the fuel to make methanol based fuel cells the market leader, however good it may or may not be.

Eddie


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## pippin

What is really sad is that Betamax was technically far superior to VHS in terms of picture quality.

The main reason for the demise of Betamax is that Sony/Toshiba who developed it refused to produce badge-engineered versions for the rental market.

JVC did produce them under lots of different names so VHS became established as rental machines.

Given the staggeringly high cost of purchase - in 1978 some £800!! - it meant that VHS dominated in the mass rental market whilst Betamax remained the system of choice for the discerning moneyed customers who bought outright.

Translate that to MH power generation - hmm.


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## Ecosse

hi Chris....we have a murvi morello which is now 6 years old and have spent 13 weeks away this year in France and GB. We have auxiliary 2/110ah deep cycle batteries with a split charge (as supplied by Murvi ) and we have never had a problem. As others said try the van as is before spending lots of money !

mike


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## eddievanbitz

> Translate that to MH power generation - hmm.


Hi Pippin Easy!

EFOY good piece of kit very expensive ) same as Betamax) and extremely limited fuel availablity (hard to get the tapes!)

VHS units were cheaper and VHS videos were in plentiful supply everywhere!


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## Rislar

eddievanbitz said:


> Translate that to MH power generation - hmm.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Pippin Easy!
> 
> EFOY good piece of kit very expensive ) same as Betamax) and extremely limited fuel availablity (hard to get the tapes!)
> 
> VHS units were cheaper and VHS videos were in plentiful supply everywhere!
Click to expand...

 8O :lol: :lol:


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## DABurleigh

"Translate that to MH power generation - hmm."

Despite being a self-confessed and many times accused gadget freak, I have in my lifetime had just a single videotape recorder, a VHS one.

So if I repeat that performance in motorhome power generation with the early adopters buying EFOY (Betamax) and helping maturing the technology and getting the price down to appeal to a wider market, I will then judge the time right to jump in and buy an affordable LPG powered high power fuel cell to last me a long while. 

But there's plenty of time yet before I reach for my wallet.

Dave


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## Ecosse

:40 pm 

Ecosse 



Joined: Feb 06, 2006 
Posts: 4 



MH: Murvi Morello 

Campsites 
Location: Aberdeen 

Medals: None 




Status: Online 
Found MHF how ?
Google 

Events Attended:0 







hi Chris....we have a murvi morello which is now 6 years old and have spent 13 weeks away this year in France and GB. We have auxiliary 2/110ah deep cycle batteries with a split charge (as supplied by Murvi ) and we have never had a problem. As others said try the van as is before spending lots of money ! 

mike


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## davidcampervanstuff

eddievanbitz said:


> Hi Pippin Easy!
> 
> EFOY good piece of kit very expensive ) same as Betamax) and extremely limited fuel availablity (hard to get the tapes!)
> 
> VHS units were cheaper and VHS videos were in plentiful supply everywhere!


Hang on! The comparison is completely invalid because - 
For a start your VHS equivalent (the Efoy alternatives which have been discussed in this thread) are actually _more_ expensive, not cheaper.

and / or

They are simply not available.

So what we're left with from your comparison is that the Efoys are a 'good piece of kit' (nice to see that acknowledgment from you at last).

So what are you waiting .. and waiting ,,,, and waiting for? Oh, the Truma which is going to cost six times more than the Efoys, will take up far more space, and will be three times heavier?

Regards

David


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## davidcampervanstuff

DABurleigh said:


> "Translate that to MH power generation - hmm."


Well we have diverted into VHS v Betamax because the arguments being deployed against Efoy are rather difficult to sustain when a direct competitor to the Efoy doesn't actually exist in the market.

Efoys have been around long enough to consolidate their technological and market lead and I wouldn't class current buyers as being early adopters. Just people who want a solution that works, now. This is solid, proven stuff.

Regards

David


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## eddievanbitz

David,

No one said that EFOY wasn't a good piece of kit, it's great which is why I bought one! It is too much money and the fuel distribution is dire

No one knows how much the Truma LPG fuel cell will cost so your making a guess, but I bet you a batch of Battery Masters, that Methanol Fuel Cells will not be around in ten years time!

Eddie


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## davidcampervanstuff

eddievanbitz said:


> David,
> 
> No one said that EFOY wasn't a good piece of kit, it's great which is why I bought one! It is too much money and the fuel distribution is dire
> 
> No one knows how much the Truma LPG fuel cell will cost so your making a guess, but I bet you a batch of Battery Masters, that Methanol Fuel Cells will not be around in ten years time!
> 
> Eddie


Hello Eddie

I have already pointed out that there are forty UK outlets listed on the SFC website now, so to describe supply as 'dire' is simply ignoring the vast improvements which have taken place since Grove took over.

Who can say whether the Efoys are too much money or not? The price simply reflects, on the one hand, the cost of developing the technology and the production to its current level - not to mention the development of a safe, sophisticated methanol cartridge and building up the supply infrastructure which - you would agree - is so important.

And on the other hand the price also reflects what customers will pay. Buyers of the 10,000 units which have been sold must have decided that what it does for them is worth the price.

I wouldn't bet on how long petro-chemical derived LPG will be around either, I can't say and you can't say, whether its LPG or methanol. Products tend to endure because there is human optimism and energy driving forward their development. SFC has never stood still so a bet on their products looks as good as any to me. And anyway, I'll be happy to get 10 years of use out of mine....

Regards

David


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## OldWomble

So, just to sum-up and clarify, could somebody with a bit more knowledge than me confirm or correct the following;

If my coffee machine runs at 230v @ 1250w = 5.4amps would that mean if I run it off an inverter it becomes 1250w / 12v = 104amps so 3 mins use would cost about 35amp/hrs of battery?


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## Rislar

OldWomble said:


> So, just to sum-up and clarify, could somebody with a bit more knowledge than me confirm or correct the following;
> 
> If my coffee machine runs at 230v @ 1250w = 5.4amps would that mean if I run it off an inverter it becomes 1250w / 12v = 104amps so 3 mins use would cost about 35amp/hrs of battery?


Sorry i cant help you with that question but i like your signature, made me laugh, how very true


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## DABurleigh

Roughly right. Add ~10% for inverter loss, add a fair bit more because of something called Peukert:
http://tinyurl.com/5c46ow
and don't forget that to maximise typical leisure battery life you shouldn't go below 50% capacity.

Dave


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## davidcampervanstuff

OldWomble said:


> So, just to sum-up and clarify, could somebody with a bit more knowledge than me confirm or correct the following;
> 
> If my coffee machine runs at 230v @ 1250w = 5.4amps would that mean if I run it off an inverter it becomes 1250w / 12v = 104amps so 3 mins use would cost about 35amp/hrs of battery?


Nearly right, up till 104amps; but then you should have divided 104Ah by 60 to get the per minute usage; then x 3 mintes. So = 5.21 Ah per brew which is not so bad.

Do that ten times a day and it mounts up to 52 Ah which is not so good. So the best plan is to use your coffee machine when you really want to, or when you are en route so your battery is going to get a free recharge from the engine. At other times boil a kettle on the gas.

I could have done these calculations for our 900w kettle but it gets very boring doing this all the time. Things were much easier ater I installed a Victron BMV 600 battery monitor - I could watch as it counted out around 7Ah withdrawn from the battery every time we boiled a kettle for two. It's somehow more emphatic when you can actually 'see' the usage.

Now we are actually much more likely to mix and match electric / gas kettle. Same applies to other things, like TV: what a pain to work out the consumption of the TV itself, then the Sky receiver, then the fan which I use to cool the latter. And then the next time I'm wondering how much I'm using I've forgotten what I'd worked out before.

Now much simpler; observe the present current flow on the monitor in amps (to two decimal places), turn on whatever and observe how much it's gone up - there's your answer. Measures absolutely everything that flows in or out of the battery.

There I go again, long answer to a short question. Sorry.

David.


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## DABurleigh

Yup. Long been a fan of Victron and battery monitors. And they calculate Peukert for you as well. Think of them like a 12V fuel gauge.


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## eddievanbitz

> Do that ten times a day and it mounts up to 52 Ah which is not so good. So the best plan is to use your coffee machine when you really want to, or when you are en route so your battery is going to get a free recharge from the engine. At other times boil a kettle on the gas.


 :lol: David there you go again being frugal! We don't all want to scrimp!

Also you keep banging on about 10000 units, a very high percentage of these are commercial units that have methanol delivered in much larger quantities than we are discussing, SFC have not sold 10000 into the leisure market.

40 outlets listed as retailers of the EFOY but I bet they don't all keep methanol. Also, If I spent circa £2500 on something to help keep my battery topped up I would at least expect to be able to buy the fuel in every County, ideally most towns!

By the way like LPG methanol is


> As an industrial product, methanol (CH3OH) is a liquid petrochemical that can be made from renewable and non-renewable fossil fuels


 So when the LPG runs out so does the methanol.

This has been a very interesting debate for you and me and probably bored loads of other people. For the record if you to buy a EFOY www.outdoorbits.com is the place I stopped selling them when I realised that people simply used far more methanol than they could carry, and couldn't and still can't pick it up with out planning where. DAB's power making scenario is pretty close to that, that we would advise people when talking about getting as much independence from mains as they can.

At the risk of us repeating the same arguments again, I withdraw and will let everyone make up there own minds

Regards

Eddie


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## carol

DABurleigh said:


> I'm afraid I wouldn't put Voller penetration into the motorhome market any higher than EFOY for many years yet.
> 
> The Truma VeGA fuel cell (strange power choice at 250W, by the way, too high for 24hr energy budget needs, too low for high power instantaneous) isn't available in dealers until Autumn 2010, and that's without any slip :-(
> 
> It is not through lack of £ or research that I am a battery, solar, Sterling B-to-B and Honda 1kW backup man.
> 
> Dave


Hi Dave

This Truma VeGA cell you mention, do you mean COST to high for 24hr .... bit confused, is there an indication of costs? Not like the Voller you told me about 2 yrs ago...when I spoke to them £15k.... is this likely to be more in line with a genny or efoy?

Carol


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## DABurleigh

Nope. 250W power too high for 24hr energy budget needs (heating excepted, in which case it is far too low, and the Voller is about right!). And then 250W power is too low for instantaneous power needs, or sustained high power such as aircon. So, strange choice. IMHO you either want similar to largest EFOY @ 65W, or 1kW plus.

Cost is unknown for Truma.

Dave


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## davidcampervanstuff

eddievanbitz said:


> For the record if you to buy a EFOY www.outdoorbits.com is the place


and ... Ahem ... other places. I'm not allowed to offer other links on this forum.


----------



## carol

Well as long as their not your own, why not.....

Carol


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## davidcampervanstuff

carol said:


> Well as long as their not your own, why not.....
> 
> Carol


Well I was thinking of my own actually .....


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## CliveMott

Does Eddie wish he was Grove Products then? The current EFOY units have come a long way since the original 2 amp version that Eddie had.

It will be years before there is a cost effective LPG fuel cell which is attractive to motorhomers.
Stephen Voller of Voller Energy resigned his post of CEO a couple of months back and the company are looking for a purchaser. Part of their premesis is up for letting. (I drive past it most days).

Truma will most likely put their "D" day out by another year again. The demo unit I crawled over at Dussledorf was a very noisey unit roaring like an air conditioning unit and compares in this respect I guess with the noise figure of a decent Honda generator. In theory LPG powered is a brilliant idea but in practice the clutter you need to reform the LPG into Hydrogen to run the cell is extensive. 

Lots of outlets in the UK as well as Europe now hold Methanol containers. Its catching on, the efficiency is improving and the price will fall I am sure. Well after we have got over this little blip in the world economy!


You read it first on MHF!! OK

Dave is correct, It takes a long time to correct my spellin mestakes.

C.


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## DABurleigh

Did Truma explain their 250W choice? My guess is it was dictated by their maximum box size, and the ratio of fuel cell volume to reforming ancillaries volume.

You're only kind to EFOY because you have one for free 

Which prompts me to consider that the only aspect I haven't covered in my posts on this thread is if I didn't have my current setup of solar, Sterling B-to-B and Honda EU10i LPG-fuelled backup, and someone offered me for free (because I wouldn't be prepared to pay otherwise) an EFOY 1600 OR a Gasperini Self-Energy EG20, which would I choose?

It would be the Gasperini, which I would operate on remote manual, cued from my Victron battery monitor. I wish I could operate it through my Victron Phoenix Multiplus, however, to pump 50A into my batteries rather than the Gasperini's more miserly built-in 20A, but maybe the Gasperini engine isn't up to it.

That's the answer - double the Gasperini charging current at no extra noise, halve the price, throw in a decent battery monitor, and I would have bought one instead of what I did 

Dave


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## pippin

As an industrial product, methanol (CH3OH) is a liquid petrochemical that can be made from renewable and non-renewable fossil fuels 

Methanol is in fact simply methyl alcohol. 
Similarly ethanol for ethyl alcohol.

The "-ol" name was introduced during Prohibition to disguise the contents of tankers so that desperate alcoholics wouldn't rob them!

Alcohols are generally made by fermentation (as in beer, wine et al).

Industrially, methanol is manufactured by using steam and natural gas or coal gas - I would not regard it as a petrochemical.


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## premiermotorhomes

If you would like to find your local agent for EFOY and for EFOY methanol please contact Grove Products on 0161 367 71 71. Grove will have systems in place to allow fuel to be delivered to all dealers that have a trade account with Grove, so even if dealers do not hold stock they have the facility to order it for you. We prefer to keep fuel in stock, and order up EFOY's for those customers that request it.

Having checked the EFOY website as a dealer ourselves it does not list all outlets as we are not listed, however I have emailed them and asked them to remedy it. I have also contact Grove about this situation and requested that it is looked at.

On a quick side note; remember with EFOY that it is near silent and will work irrespective of external variables. Unlike solar panels which require sunlight and this automatically limits it working time.

Regards,
Chris,
Premier Motorhomes of Chichester


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## CliveMott

Dave,
Truma considered that a 250 watt unit was more than adequate for motorhomes and I would agree. You have to consider if you either want to maintain carefree battery usage or if you want to power substancial mains equipment directly. I was also offered one of the Truma trial units for the duration of the trial - which I declined because of the noise and size. The EFOY units (I have now had 2 different ones on loan) remain the property of SFC. I hope to be able to purchase the one on trial at the moment at the end of the trial - that is of course unless they ask me to trial the new improved more efficient model. 

You did say to me that if you were speccing your van again you would not bother with the habitation aircon, only that for the cab. If you remove this from your equasion you have no requirement for a substancial generator.
I would agree with your thoughts about habitation aircon, we have not specced this for our new van as our experience with it in a Winebago in Australia put us off because of the noise.

Boys and their toys! What next.


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## davidcampervanstuff

premiermotorhomes said:


> If you would like to find your local agent for EFOY and for EFOY methanol please contact Grove Products on 0161 367 71 71. Grove will have systems in place to allow fuel to be delivered to all dealers that have a trade account with Grove, so even if dealers do not hold stock they have the facility to order it for you. We prefer to keep fuel in stock, and order up EFOY's for those customers that request it.
> 
> Having checked the EFOY website as a dealer ourselves it does not list all outlets as we are not listed, however I have emailed them and asked them to remedy it. I have also contact Grove about this situation and requested that it is looked at.
> 
> On a quick side note; remember with EFOY that it is near silent and will work irrespective of external variables. Unlike solar panels which require sunlight and this automatically limits it working time.
> 
> Regards,
> Chris,
> Premier Motorhomes of Chichester


Hello Chris,

Good to see another dealer confirming the positive situation with fuel supplies. I have already been in touch with Grove this week to stress the importance of their publicising the good news about the UK distribution network.

Like you, we usually have the fuel in stock. Our customers have generally bought 3 or 4 x 10 litres at a time, which keeps them going for a long time anyway.

Regards

David


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## DABurleigh

Clive,

Fair enough. Yes, I have said that about roof aircon:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-402811.html#402811
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-290397.html#290397
and that is still my position. If I had my time again with Murvi that is the only thing I would have done differently, though maybe I would have thought more about focal length of the twin rear cameras. (And likewise with my heavily specced Merc car, maybe drop the Xenon headlights but that was about all).

The reason for my 65W as EFOY or 1kW (and therefore puzzled by the 250W middle ground) was that:

1) even for laptop, TV watchers and diesel heater users such as me, a sustained (over 24hr) QUIET 65W is fine, whereas;
2) if you want aircon, OR electrically-based heating you need 1kW+.

Think of the TOTAL SYSTEM simplicity an affordable, reasonably sized Voller spec would achieve. LPG Autogas direct to kWs of mains electricity and waste heat very quietly around the clock. No need for diesel or gas space or water heating boilers and equipment. No need for oil-filled radiators or fan heaters or second heat exchanger matrix in the back. No need for expensive complicated 3 way fridges. Just a high power quiet LPG fuel cell and resistance wires. Surely that should appeal to your preferred KISS philosophy 

Let's hope we are both still kicking when they become available at an affordable cost 

Dave


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## CliveMott

Yes Dave,
I totally agree. I did get a guided tour around the Voller plant a few months back. Interesting!.

Have a google at "Oorja Protonics" More potential here I guess.
Then there is a mob in Southampton playing with one.

C.


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## DABurleigh

Dunno about the Southampton one, but I reckon Voller is holed below the waterline and Truma had better pull its finger out before it gets eclipsed by a UK Imperial College spin-off company working in cahoots with British Gas.

This is aimed at the residential market, but what has been achieved recently looks a damned good spec for motorhomes ('cos it meets my LPG, power, volume and weight criteria):
http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/online/news/articles/2008-09/ceres-fc-meets-target

Small box, 25kg, propane, gives 1kW, technology scaleable, and they are looking where to build a £5m PRODUCTION factory.
http://www.cerespower.com/news/BG_CHP_update_June_2008.pdf
Pg 25 to get a feel for size - essentially it goes inside domestic wall-hanging boiler, producing heat and electricity quietly.

And it's 40 miles from us (the South-East innovative powerhouse of Britain, just to wind up MHF colleagues). Dig out your "Press" card .....

Dave


----------



## leseduts

Cak Tanks are advertising a 'Top Energy' operating locker for Honda Generators. It seems to be an sound insulated locker which is vented so the genny can be used in the locker. Has anyone bought one or seen one. I cannot work out if it fits into an existing locker, or you need to cut a new locker into the skirt of the van. New glasses may make it clearer to me, but I am sure someone out there will make sense of it.


----------



## DABurleigh

"cannot work out if it fits into an existing locker, or you need to cut a new locker into the skirt of the van."

The version I'm reading says "The front of the casing has a hinged multi adjustable mounting frame to attach the section of side skirt cut out to fit the Top Energy."

Dave


----------



## leseduts

Thanks Dave,
If I read things through properly it would save on emails.
Do you have any thoughts on the product? We are going to buy a 1KW Honda. The locker sounds as if it will quiten it down a bit more, but at an obvious expense.


----------



## DABurleigh

My only thoughts are it depends on how often you expect to use the genny. Will the convenience it offers be worth the price, hassle and weight?

Dave


----------



## Superk

DABurleigh said:


> Dunno about the Southampton one, but I reckon Voller is holed below the waterline and Truma had better pull its finger out before it gets eclipsed by a UK Imperial College spin-off company working in cahoots with British Gas.
> 
> Dave


Voller announced to the Stock Market this morning that they will cease trading, return cash as a special dividend to shareholders and be traded on the AIM market as a cash shell.

 
Keith


----------



## olley

Hi nobodys mentioned wind generaters, not cheap and can be noisy, but the wind in the UK is more likely than sunshine.

Olley


----------



## DABurleigh

I looked at those when I was caravanning. If you regularly parked up on the coast in winter, worth thinking about. Otherwise not, IMHO.

Dave


----------



## premiermotorhomes

I have spoken to Grove Products this morning to confirm that they have full Courier coverage of the UK for shipping EFOY methanol fuel, this will take approxomately 2-4 days to arrive from the time of order to a dealer. 

There are about 40 dealers throughout the UK who can support you with the product and accept orders for fuel and systems. They can also arrange for fuel to be delivered to a business address of the customers choice if you are not local to a dealer.

I hope this is of some help.

Regards,
Chris
Premier Motorhomes of Chichester


----------



## DABurleigh

Why won't the couriers deliver to a domestic address, Chris?

Dave


----------



## Tim3

*12v electrical systems*

Hi All,

I'm having similar problems in deciding on a suitable system.

Currently I have a single, tired leisure battery and an on board mains hook up batery charger that doesn't work. Obviously I need to get this sorted before going full time in Europe for 6-9 months. I've done lots of reading on the subject but before going out and spending lots of hard earned cash I'd really welcome any comments anyone might have on the 12V system I think I might need;

We will be using lights, possibly fridge on 12V depending on gas situation, laptop for clearing card on digital camera and occasional movie watching.

We intend to be free camping as much as possible.

Leisure batteries - 2 x 105 Ah Gel batteries

Split charger from alternator with switching to protect engine battery from accidental discharge

Battery charger for mains hook up - Ring Auto RSC 16

Solar panels - 45W 12V monocrystalline solar panel
Open circuit voltage (Voc) - 21,5V
Optimum power voltage - 17,6V
Optimum operating current - 2,56A 
Panel size - 626*535*35mm

Solar charge controller -
Load Disconnect: 11.1V (12V) 
Load reconnect: 12.6V (12V) 
Equalisation Voltage (10 min): 14.6V (12V) 
Boost Voltage (10 min): 14.4V (12V) 
Float Voltage: 13.6V (12V) 
Temperature Compensation (mV/C): -30 mV (12V) 
Temperature: -35 to +55 degrees celsius


----------



## DABurleigh

First reactions are:

Why gel?

Are you ripping out fridge to replace with compressor fridge?

Solar panel too miserly.

What do you mean accidental discharge of vehicle battery?

Dave


----------



## premiermotorhomes

This is because of the insurance and contract in place between Grove and the courier, unfortunately this dictates that the delivery address must be a business address.

I hope this clears matters up. I would like to think that most customers would have access to a business address available to them, or a local dealer which can be found by contacting Grove Products on 0161 367 71 71.

Regards,
Chris
Premier Motorhomes of Chichester


----------



## Andysam

It's a long thread so please excuse me if I've missed something. But in answer to your question the easiest, cheapest and most powerful answer is...a petrol genny. No contest at all. 

If however, you move regularly (allowing the Sterling to fully charge the batts) then higher capacity batts are a must (in whatever amount/configuration i.e. more batts or just larger capacity), and together with a very large solar panel (larger than 85W) you would be totally self sufficient as long as you were not using electric as though you were at home.

The EFOY just isn't there yet. If you buy the fuel in bulk (205l for about £100) it's reasonable enough, but unless you want to take lots with you it's of no use for long trips. 

The underslung genny is an option but probably not cheap and is after all still a genny. It's 1db quieter than a Honda or Kipor but those you can site away from the van whilst the lpg one is attached to the underside so the 51db @ 7m is irrelevant and will in reality be about 60-65db when that close. (A bit louder than a diesel eberspacher).

If you want to please other people and not yourselves get a silent system. If you want power when you need it- get a genny.


----------



## Tim3

*Hi Dave*

I'm new to motorhome ownership and am trying to get advise from people with full timing experience so I get it right first time.

The reason why I am thinking gel is that I'm led to believe that lead acid batteries commonly only operate at around 80% of the Ah the manufacturer claims whereas gel apparently give a more true rating. Also I understand that gel batteries have a longer lifetime in terms of number of cycles.

In terms of fridge, it hadn't occurred to me to replace the fridge. The 3 way currently fitted seemed like a good idea (possibly naively) to me. We're carrying 2 x 12kg gas bottles & I guessed that would last a good couple of weeks before needing to get replacements. Plus we will occasionally be on mains hook up.

I'm looking to protect the engine battery from being run too low if we accidentally run the leisure batteries too low. Currently they are linked which I don't believe is the best thing.

I've been offered a split charger that a friend had fitted in his Land Rover for charging the winch & engine battery from the alternator. This allowed his winch system (our leisure system) to draw from both sets of batteries until the voltage reached 12.4v, then switched to leisure only from then on.

I'm surprised you think the solar panel is miserly, I really thought 45w panel working efficiently for 6-8 hours would provide enough. Am I being naive again in estimating our electricity usage?


----------



## DABurleigh

You are misguided on just about every point, so I think a forum/email exchange is not the easiest to deal with it all! 

Happy to chat over the phone in the evening. Contact via MSN/Skype or leave your email.Dave


----------



## Tim3

*Contact*

xxx


----------



## AberdeenAngus

Tim3

you're asking for a billion spam e-mails by putting your e-mail address on a forum in its true form.

Strongly suggest you edit it sharpish.

Just replace the @ sign with a pound sign or something.....we know what you mean.


----------



## Zebedee

Thanks Angus   

I fix 'em if I see 'em, but missed that one.

A couple of spaces also seem to do the trick.


----------



## Telbell

....or better still Tim3....Subscribe and then PM! :lol: 
(I'm sure you'll get a tenner's worth of advice from Dave :wink: )


----------



## davidcampervanstuff

Andysam said:


> The EFOY just isn't there yet. If you buy the fuel in bulk (205l for about £100) it's reasonable enough, but unless you want to take lots with you it's of no use for long trips.


At the price you are quoting you must be talking about a 'bulk' supply of non-Efoy methanol which you would have to obtain, store and then decant into an Efoy cartridge.

Only the reckless would even think about doing that, in my view: first of all, Efoy methanol is of guaranteed purity and the use of anything else might damage the fuel cell and would invalidate the warranty.

Secondly, Efoy has developed a sophisticated fuel cartridge which is sealed and protects the user against spillage, inhalation of fumes and fire hazard. It is a safe system which is certified for use in motor vehicles.

And anyway I can't see the typical Efoy buyer as looking for bodge ways of saving fuelling costs. The costs of using the correct cartridges is not unreasonable and your comment about long trips ignores the information which has been repeated a number of times in this thread, about the network of supply outlets which is now available.

You are also ignoring the fact that there is a very sizeable body of motorhome users whose trips do not extend for months but rather days and weeks. They still want to be assured of battery power in all conditions without fuss or worry and the Efoy does this perfectly with an amount of fuel that can be easily carried. For very long trips, is it really so difficult to include a retail outlet in the itinerary?

To say that the Efoy 'just isn't there yet' is just ridiculous; I'll go with my customer who reported back to me that theirs was 'absolutely fabulous'.

Regards

David


----------



## Andysam

Hardly an impartial view!

Don't scaremonger! Methanol is widely available at 99.9% purity. It is commonly used by campers instead of using meths (ethanol), myself included and people making biodiesel; also myself included. Using methanol without adding anything to it is no more dangerous than petrol (in fact a lot safer), however I suspect you already know that?

If you think I am wrong please evidence that - coshh sheets however do not mention the inherent dangers of methanol however, since you mention dangers then it is only fair to inform everyone that methanol when burnt is in fact far more toxic than ethanol which the EFOY would burn just as well. The fact that the fuel cells run on methanol I suspect is simply that more profit can be made from the re-selling of methanol as opposed to ethanol as ethanol cost more initially.

I replied to the topic of "Unlimited mobile electricity" which of course anyone wishing to do so using EFOY branded fuel cells will very soon find very limited availability.

Are you suggesting that EFOY is the pinnacle of alternative fuel use? If so, I'll fire off a quick email to OPEC as they may be getting a bit worried- but somehow I think not.

All the best.


----------



## DABurleigh

"Hardly an impartial view! "

Irrespective of the merits of David's arguments, I do note the fact that his last 20 posts are ALL promoting products he sells does risk undermining them. There may be more that 20 in a row but I got fed up with counting 

As MHF prides itself on its impartiality yet welcome dealers, a bit more balance would be nice. Take your cue from Eddie 

Dave


----------



## davidcampervanstuff

Andysam said:


> Hardly an impartial view!
> 
> Don't scaremonger! Methanol is widely available at 99.9% purity. It is commonly used by campers instead of using meths (ethanol), myself included and people making biodiesel; also myself included. Using methanol without adding anything to it is no more dangerous than petrol (in fact a lot safer), however I suspect you already know that?
> 
> If you think I am wrong please evidence that - coshh sheets however do not mention the inherent dangers of methanol however, since you mention dangers then it is only fair to inform everyone that methanol when burnt is in fact far more toxic than ethanol which the EFOY would burn just as well. The fact that the fuel cells run on methanol I suspect is simply that more profit can be made from the re-selling of methanol as opposed to ethanol as ethanol cost more initially.
> 
> I replied to the topic of "Unlimited mobile electricity" which of course anyone wishing to do so using EFOY branded fuel cells will very soon find very limited availability.
> 
> Are you suggesting that EFOY is the pinnacle of alternative fuel use? If so, I'll fire off a quick email to OPEC as they may be getting a bit worried- but somehow I think not.
> 
> All the best.


So it happens to be my view, based on my own experience with my own Efoy.

I'm not a chemistry scientist but I did do some conscientious perusing the internet in order to try to glean some understanding, as best as I could, of a product I was proposing to sell.

So I know that methanol and ethanol are not the same: your suggestion that SFC uses methanol (rather than ethanol) because they can make more profit is to be carried away by cynicism. Unlike bio-diesel used in a combustion engine, methanol in a fuel cell is not burnt; no combustion takes place in the fuel cell as it is a catalytic process which specifically depends on methanol.

If Efoy warns that using other methanol fuel sources might damage the fuel cell then I'm willing to believe them. If you want to take an opposite view then why would you believe that someone else purveying bulk methanol is telling the truth about the purity and suitability of their product?

I would suggest that there is a _tiny_ number of people who are willing to spend their time messing around making their own bio-diesel and taking their chances with amateur setups handling dangerous chemicals which they mix together and then heat up. And even fewer of these are also motorhomers who might also want to top up the old Efoy cartridge.

I'm glad I'm not one of them: I'd much rather be spending my time using my motorhome, having an interesting trip with power from my Efoy and my safe Efoy cartridges. Otherwise I'd be too busy mixing up my bio-fuel (even though my VW manual specifically warns against using bio-diesel, but hell, why should I believe VW?) and filling my Efoy cartridges (oops! slight spill there...)

By the way, 'meths' is not ethanol; it is ethanol with about 10 per cent methanol added; it is added to deliberately make the ethanol toxic to drink and this addition is required by UK Customs to protect revenue from alcohol duties. This does strike me as bizarre: I can go to any old retail outlet and pick up a bottle of meths, splash it about (Henry), breath it in, clean my windows with it etc.; so clearly the government can't have deliberately, carelessly made it all that dangerous, provided you don't drink it, can it? .... Just to keep the coffers full?

Now there's cynicism for you...

And who said anything about Efoy being the pinnacle of alternative fuel use? Not me, I'm not supporting Efoy on any 'alternative' grounds: it's because they do the job that people want from them and they are doing it now.

Regards

David


----------



## davidcampervanstuff

DABurleigh said:


> "Hardly an impartial view! "
> 
> Irrespective of the merits of David's arguments, I do note the fact that his last 20 posts are ALL promoting products he sells does risk undermining them. There may be more that 20 in a row but I got fed up with counting
> 
> As MHF prides itself on its impartiality yet welcome dealers, a bit more balance would be nice. Take your cue from Eddie
> 
> Dave


But of course - it is because I sell them that I have knowledge of them that I think others would find useful.

There are many, many contributors on MHF who are far more knowledgeable than me on many topics; and this applies particularly to contributions from people who are clearly 'in the trade' and therefore it could be said that they are promoting themselves.

In case you think that I spend my time monitoring this forum and then jumping in whenever I see an opportunity for self-promotion, you are entirely wrong. I don't have the time and it could be weeks - even months - between visits.

Sometimes when I visit I see a current topic that I feel I could assist with; mostly I just have a quick browse and quietly leave (time constraints again). However, there is one subject that I confess to watching out for and that is the Efoy. Because - and yes I do have an interest - frankly I find it irritating that there has been a history of knocking the Efoys, usually from the same quarters, every time a forum member asks a question about them.

The Efoy distribution has been evolving and growing, but the negative posters seems stuck somewhere else and keep repeating the same old thing.

So I have tried, now and again, to offer another point of view. Is this not what forum members would want?

Dave, you yourself can hardly lay claim to impartiality when MHF is partly a vehicle to cross-promote your other enterprise, outdoorbits.com. I've no doubt that your own contributions are very knowledgeable and often made simply to help a forum member but realistically everything you do in that respect bolsters MHF and thereby also outdoorbits.com so please don't protest too much innocence.

Regards

David


----------



## DABurleigh

Ooooo, I think you will find I have every right to protest innocence 

Dave


----------



## nukeadmin

> Dave, you yourself can hardly lay claim to impartiality when MHF is partly a vehicle to cross-promote your other enterprise, outdoorbits.com. I've no doubt that your own contributions are very knowledgeable and often made simply to help a forum member but realistically everything you do in that respect bolsters MHF and thereby also outdoorbits.com so please don't protest too much innocence.


lol methinks though dost mistake DABurleigh for moi  thanks for the promotion though


----------



## davidcampervanstuff

DABurleigh said:


> Ooooo, I think you will find I have every right to protest innocence
> 
> Dave


The very picture of... 8)

David


----------



## Andysam

davidcampervanstuff said:


> So it happens to be my view, based on my own experience with my own Efoy.
> 
> I'm not a chemistry scientist but I did do some conscientious perusing the internet in order to try to glean some understanding, as best as I could, of a product I was proposing to sell.
> 
> So I know that methanol and ethanol are not the same: your suggestion that SFC uses methanol (rather than ethanol) because they can make more profit is to be carried away by cynicism. Unlike bio-diesel used in a combustion engine, methanol in a fuel cell is not burnt; no combustion takes place in the fuel cell as it is a catalytic process which specifically depends on methanol.
> 
> If Efoy warns that using other methanol fuel sources might damage the fuel cell then I'm willing to believe them. If you want to take an opposite view then why would you believe that someone else purveying bulk methanol is telling the truth about the purity and suitability of their product?
> 
> I would suggest that there is a _tiny_ number of people who are willing to spend their time messing around making their own bio-diesel and taking their chances with amateur setups handling dangerous chemicals which they mix together and then heat up. And even fewer of these are also motorhomers who might also want to top up the old Efoy cartridge.
> 
> I'm glad I'm not one of them: I'd much rather be spending my time using my motorhome, having an interesting trip with power from my Efoy and my safe Efoy cartridges. Otherwise I'd be too busy mixing up my bio-fuel (even though my VW manual specifically warns against using bio-diesel, but hell, why should I believe VW?) and filling my Efoy cartridges (oops! slight spill there...)
> 
> By the way, 'meths' is not ethanol; it is ethanol with about 10 per cent methanol added; it is added to deliberately make the ethanol toxic to drink and this addition is required by UK Customs to protect revenue from alcohol duties. This does strike me as bizarre: I can go to any old retail outlet and pick up a bottle of meths, splash it about (Henry), breath it in, clean my windows with it etc.; so clearly the government can't have deliberately, carelessly made it all that dangerous, provided you don't drink it, can it? .... Just to keep the coffers full?
> 
> Now there's cynicism for you...
> 
> And who said anything about Efoy being the pinnacle of alternative fuel use? Not me, I'm not supporting Efoy on any 'alternative' grounds: it's because they do the job that people want from them and they are doing it now.
> 
> Regards
> 
> David


David,

My posting was not a personal critique of you and apologise if that's how it came across, however your posts are almost of "flaming" status.

If something can burn or in the case of the EFOY; catalyse methanol it can do the same but cleaner with ethanol. What by the way, is the by product of the EFOY if there is a catalytic reaction, then there must be a by product?

I'm unsure where you are going with the comments re biodiesel but they are a bit off topic and won't help the original poster. No methanol is burnt in BD fuel. Feel free to PM me about BD. Your VW would love it BTW

What I am suggesting is that pure (well the 99.9% purity methanol) will fuel an EFOY just as well as the fuel cells. Yes there is some trouble to go to, just the same as someone on holiday who goes out of their way to buy a fuel cell, or even to buy petrol/diesel at a garage away from the main road that is a few pennies a litre cheaper than the garage they've just passed.

Meths is a mix as you quite rightly point out is a mix. Nowadays not mixed with Methanol though but chemicals (in this country anyway) see here wiki

Now for 2.5k (the price of the 100aH (max) EFOY) you can get state of the art solar panels which *WILL* provide enough energy even in the UK, to power the system which this topic is the subject of.

However, for convenience, power and usability now; the genny (petrol or lpg) is still king, with a few less well titled princes hoping for a jewel from the crown.


----------



## DABurleigh

"Now for 2.5k (the price of the 100aH (max) EFOY) you can get state of the art solar panels which WILL provide enough energy even in the UK, to power the system which this topic is the subject of."

And if you shape them right, you'll be able to take off, too


----------



## davidcampervanstuff

nukeadmin said:


> Dave, you yourself can hardly lay claim to impartiality when MHF is partly a vehicle to cross-promote your other enterprise, outdoorbits.com. I've no doubt that your own contributions are very knowledgeable and often made simply to help a forum member but realistically everything you do in that respect bolsters MHF and thereby also outdoorbits.com so please don't protest too much innocence.
> 
> 
> 
> lol methinks though dost mistake DABurleigh for moi  thanks for the promotion though
Click to expand...

I'm going to tough this out and pretend I knew all along. . . that's it, 'twas a windup. You're welcome.


----------



## Andysam

DABurleigh said:


> "Now for 2.5k (the price of the 100aH (max) EFOY) you can get state of the art solar panels which WILL provide enough energy even in the UK, to power the system which this topic is the subject of."
> 
> And if you shape them right, you'll be able to take off, too


True enough- a 300w is about 4' x 2'!


----------



## davidcampervanstuff

DABurleigh said:


> Ooooo, I think you will find I have every right to protest innocence
> 
> Dave


Blush. Sorry about that; somehow I had it fixed in my head that in another role you were also nukeadmin.

Regards

David.


----------



## davidcampervanstuff

Andysam said:


> David,
> 
> My posting was not a personal critique of you and apologise if that's how it came across, however your posts are almost of "flaming" status.
> 
> If something can burn or in the case of the EFOY; catalyse methanol it can do the same but cleaner with ethanol. What by the way, is the by product of the EFOY if there is a catalytic reaction, then there must be a by product?
> 
> I'm unsure where you are going with the comments re biodiesel but they are a bit off topic and won't help the original poster. No methanol is burnt in BD fuel. Feel free to PM me about BD. Your VW would love it BTW
> 
> What I am suggesting is that pure (well the 99.9% purity methanol) will fuel an EFOY just as well as the fuel cells. Yes there is some trouble to go to, just the same as someone on holiday who goes out of their way to buy a fuel cell, or even to buy petrol/diesel at a garage away from the main road that is a few pennies a litre cheaper than the garage they've just passed.
> 
> Meths is a mix as you quite rightly point out is a mix. Nowadays not mixed with Methanol though but chemicals (in this country anyway) see here wiki
> 
> Now for 2.5k (the price of the 100aH (max) EFOY) you can get state of the art solar panels which *WILL* provide enough energy even in the UK, to power the system which this topic is the subject of.
> 
> However, for convenience, power and usability now; the genny (petrol or lpg) is still king, with a few less well titled princes hoping for a jewel from the crown.


I didn't take anything personally and sorry if I sounded shrill but I'm just making a strong defence of the Efoys.

Wasn't me who raised the topic of bio-diesel 8O but I was pointing out that only a tiny minority of people is going to be interested in messing around with methanol. So it's the cost you quoted for bulk supplies that most likely won't help the original poster.

Life's too short to make you own bio-diesel; where would I have time for my other obsessions?

There's loads of technical stuff on the net about methanol / ethanol as a fuel for fuel cells; I'm not qualified to dispense a preference but SFC is; so why would I want to question it? If there was an alternative actually in volume production that I could go out and buy today or even soon I might be more interested in the question.

Not sure if you were asking, but the by-product of the Efoy's catalytic process is water vapour and carbon dioxide: non-toxic and in any case vented to the outside. On my quick scan methylated spirts in the UK still contains 10 per cent methanol, although there are other types of denatured ethanol which don't.

Anyway, I agree that this has all got very off-topic but I have merely followed your trail.

It would be really interesting to have a comment from the orginal poster, if he has not long since got bored and gone away, on whether he has been moved one way or another by this thread. Maybe moved to tears ...

Where's this solar panel anyway?

Regards

David


----------



## Andysam

Here is one example: 300w solar panel but that's not the dogs doo dahs I was thinking about. I saw some super flexible lightweight ones the other week that were 500w each but I can't find them now!

In any case they would completely take up the roof of a California 8O


----------



## olley

Hi very interesting thread, my own thoughts are that as an LPG powered RV getting Autogas can still be a problem, and thats with over 1000 fuel stations selling it in the UK, with only around 40-50 dealers selling the EFOY cartridges I can imagine getting really fed up going out of my way looking for them.

Start selling them at fuel stations that also sell Autogas and I would be interested, until then I will wait until LPG fuel cells become available. (if ever :lol: )

Olley


----------



## Superk

Andysam said:


> Here is one example: 300w solar panel but that's not the dogs doo dahs I was thinking about. I saw some super flexible lightweight ones the other week that were 500w each but I can't find them now!
> 
> In any case they would completely take up the roof of a California 8O


Looked hard and long but not seen any semi-flexibles above 68W such as those fitted to Ellen Macarthur's yacht. So if you have - be good enough to post.
semi-flexible solar panels

 
Keith


----------



## Andysam

Had a quick look and you'll need to go to the states for them, but now we're no longer 2 for 1 (dollars to pounds) it doesn't makes sense until the exchange rate changes. Here: Solar panels but the ones I was thinking of aren't flexible but slighter smaller and thinner than normal fixed panels, just that technology had gotten a bit better. I think flexibles are going to be VERY expensive for a long time to come, but taking your example of a 68W panel, for £2500 you can get 4 of them = 260W (ish). Theoretically these will produce 260W an hour (not in the UK they won't!) so chop that by 50% x the hours of producing daylight (not necessarily sunlight) to get a daily rate and I would suggest at least 75aH is feasible most days. That output will significantly increase with the larger non flexible panels as you could purchase 600w of panels for £2500= at least 125aH based on a 5 hour production cycle operating at 50%.


----------



## eddievanbitz

So there you have it!

Dave Burleigh is not Dave Burley, So, can say what he likes, as can Dave Burley!

The methanol situation is much better than it was and Eddievanbitz promises not to be so scathing of the fuel situation, I didn't realise that since 2003 they had managed to get 40 outlets! in the UK 8O 

Solar panels are rubbish in the UK in the winter :lol: 

David at campervan stuff sells efoys as well as outdoorbits, and rates them very highly, Eddie at Van Bitz has sold them and in theory could still sell them (having tried very hard to dissuade them as he hates to see disappointed people)  

a lot more batteries and an uprated charging system is a good option  

A quiet generator is the only 100% guaranteed form of mobile power, if you want to long term wild camp in Northern Europe over winter and expect to buy fuel when you need it as opposed to lugging it around with you!

Simple!

Eddie


----------



## OldWomble

eddievanbitz said:


> So there you have it!
> 
> Dave Burleigh is not Dave Burley, So, can say what he likes, as can Dave Burley!
> 
> The methanol situation is much better than it was and Eddievanbitz promises not to be so scathing of the fuel situation, I didn't realise that since 2003 they had managed to get 40 outlets! in the UK 8O
> 
> Solar panels are rubbish in the UK in the winter :lol:
> 
> David at campervan stuff sells efoys as well as outdoorbits, and rates them very highly, Eddie at Van Bitz has sold them and in theory could still sell them (having tried very hard to dissuade them as he hates to see disappointed people)
> 
> a lot more batteries and an uprated charging system is a good option
> 
> A quiet generator is the only 100% guaranteed form of mobile power, if you want to long term wild camp in Northern Europe over winter and expect to buy fuel when you need it as opposed to lugging it around with you!
> 
> Simple!
> 
> Eddie


Typical! Eddie comes in right at the end and with six simple statements puts the entire world right and everyone else in their place. What a guy!


----------



## CliveMott

He's a grumpy git though!
(Takes one to know one)

C.


----------



## eddievanbitz

Thanks Old womble :wink: 

Clive, I've never met David so I will have to take your word for it  

Eddie


----------



## davidcampervanstuff

eddievanbitz said:


> Thanks Old womble :wink:
> 
> Clive, I've never met David so I will have to take your word for it
> 
> Eddie


hrmph.... :evil:


----------



## carol

CliveMott said:


> Dave,
> 
> You did say to me that if you were speccing your van again you would not bother with the habitation aircon, only that for the cab. If you remove this from your equasion you have no requirement for a substancial generator.
> I would agree with your thoughts about habitation aircon, we have not specced this for our new van as our experience with it in a Winebago in Australia put us off because of the noise.
> 
> Boys and their toys! What next.


We decided to do without the roof a/c on speccing our Rapido, as we found what worked for us, mainly being off the mains - was to use the omnivent with a vent open elsewhere (in the Hymer it was over the drop down bed) and that was brilliant at keeping us cool at night....

Carol


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## carol

davidcampervanstuff said:


> But of course - it is because I sell them that I have knowledge of them that I think others would find useful.
> 
> Dave, you yourself can hardly lay claim to impartiality when MHF is partly a vehicle to cross-promote your other enterprise, outdoorbits.com. I've no doubt that your own contributions are very knowledgeable and often made simply to help a forum member but realistically everything you do in that respect bolsters MHF and thereby also outdoorbits.com so please don't protest too much innocence.
> 
> Regards
> 
> David


David I feel you are totally wrong, you are perhaps under a misaprehension - and as I seem to have missed this thread - I am late arriving to it.... my comments

DAB - is in fact a Dave Burleigh -NOT in business - but to me a very clever man who knows - I reckon - everthing - about power - how to - what's best for different situations - and a scientist... and from his position no doubt an excellent one....

Efoy - as many on here know, 2007 Dusseldorf, we nearly specced our Rapido with it, first time we saw it, thought it great, BUT, that little bit of worry about getting the methanol did concern me, and we were not intending at that time to add solars, it was to be our only charging method.... a quick visit here, and several answers from users and DAB showed me that perhaps it was too early to consider it.... so we added 2 x 85w solars...

We are pleased we went that route, if I am honest, and I was rich, I WOULD fit an Efoy, mainly because it would bring peace of mind, but we haven't had a problem at all with only our solars, so really it isn't needed... and we are not rich - but we did see it in dealers in France, and although Chelston are listed as dealers, I didn't see any methanol....and if I had just turned up needing some, 3/4 days to wait for it would not be welcome.

To your other question - surely that is what member's want

Well yes, but not banged on and on about it....you lose your case then...

Sorry

Carol

Edited: Forgot to say Dave Burley - is the owner of MHF and ODB...not DABurleigh..... sounds the same, but two different people!


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## tuftey

can i just add we live full time in our van with only 1x11o leisure battery and a petrol genarator we neven use a hook up to any site or house and we live very confy thanks with all the same as every house in uk


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## CliveMott

There are now over 40 outlets in the UK selling Methanol for the EFOY fuel cells.

If one intends to camp without hookup for long periods then occasional use of a microwave oven should be fine, but I would seriously advise that the coffee machine be left in the cupboard as otherwise it will be left on all day to keep the coffee warm - and eat battery amps via the inverter.
You can purchase a gas fired coffee machine you know!!

C.


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## davidcampervanstuff

carol said:


> davidcampervanstuff said:
> 
> 
> 
> But of course - it is because I sell them that I have knowledge of them that I think others would find useful.
> 
> Dave, you yourself can hardly lay claim to impartiality when MHF is partly a vehicle to cross-promote your other enterprise, outdoorbits.com. I've no doubt that your own contributions are very knowledgeable and often made simply to help a forum member but realistically everything you do in that respect bolsters MHF and thereby also outdoorbits.com so please don't protest too much innocence.
> 
> Regards
> 
> David
> 
> 
> 
> David I feel you are totally wrong, you are perhaps under a misaprehension - and as I seem to have missed this thread - I am late arriving to it.... my comments
> 
> DAB - is in fact a Dave Burleigh -NOT in business - but to me a very clever man who knows - I reckon - everthing - about power - how to - what's best for different situations - and a scientist... and from his position no doubt an excellent one....
> 
> Efoy - as many on here know, 2007 Dusseldorf, we nearly specced our Rapido with it, first time we saw it, thought it great, BUT, that little bit of worry about getting the methanol did concern me, and we were not intending at that time to add solars, it was to be our only charging method.... a quick visit here, and several answers from users and DAB showed me that perhaps it was too early to consider it.... so we added 2 x 85w solars...
> 
> We are pleased we went that route, if I am honest, and I was rich, I WOULD fit an Efoy, mainly because it would bring peace of mind, but we haven't had a problem at all with only our solars, so really it isn't needed... and we are not rich - but we did see it in dealers in France, and although Chelston are listed as dealers, I didn't see any methanol....and if I had just turned up needing some, 3/4 days to wait for it would not be welcome.
> 
> To your other question - surely that is what member's want
> 
> Well yes, but not banged on and on about it....you lose your case then...
> 
> Sorry
> 
> Carol
> 
> Edited: Forgot to say Dive Burley - is the owner of MHF and ODB...not DABurleigh..... sounds the same, but two different people!
Click to expand...

Hello Carol,

I have already acknowledged - and apologised for - my error in confusing the two Davids (which made my accusation unfounded) and what's more I agree that DAB's posts are always very expert and well informed.

My experience of customers who have bought Efoys is that they're not rich and they have thought long and hard and decided that they want what the Efoy offers. And my feedback is that they are very happy with their Efoys.

I'm sorry that you think my responding to negative comments in this thread amounts to 'banging on'. I just have a different view and it also happens to be an informed view.

I don't suggest that the Efoy is right for everybody; it's a pity that much of the views against seem to assert that it's not right for _anybody_. This is a denial of the facts and also dismissive of the choice that many fellow motorhomers have made.

Many of the alternatives which have been put forward during the course of this thread have subsequently bitten the dust on the grounds of cost, availability or demise ( this being revealed not by me banging away but by other contributors - read the thread) and only the Efoy hums along quietly and for real.

At the end of the day all we are left with is the argument about the distribution of the fuel cartridges. This has been well covered and you have to make up your own mind about this - I say that planning several days ahead to secure fuel which will then keep you going for many weeks is not so terrible. Is it?

Regards

David

Not at all grumpy. Or at least not once Christmas is over ..... :twisted:


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## carol

David, I replied whilst reading through the long thread, and of course saw the other comments from eddie and others...so my apologies for saying it again, that is the problem of not knowing when the end of the thread is...

Carol
  :lol:


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## wakk44

I have gone for a large battery bank and solar panel,which for my modest needs of 30/40 A/H per day is self sufficient in summer,and would last 4/5 days in winter before needing a recharge.

But we don't have power hungry coffee machines,microwave,hairdryers,and habitation air-con etc...also we don't use the m/home much in winter,so this set up is fine for us.

The OP asked ''The Best Route to Unlimited Mobile Electricity (off hook-up)''

Having read through this thread and considered the efoy(great idea but refills not readily available),the Gasperini Self-Energy generator(great idea but noisy),and standard generators(noisy),the truma fuel cell looks an attractive proposition:-runs off readily available lpg,quiet,and more than adequate output.

The big question is-how much? If Truma can make it economically attractive to the average man in the street then it could be a winner,if the estimates on this thread are correct (£thousands) then the average bloke is going to get a Honda genny and sod the neighbours !!


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## wakk44

*Truma Vega*

Just been on the Truma website and found >>>THIS<<< animated video for the Vega fuel cell.

Also >>>THIS<<< which explains it all.Will be interesting to see the results of their field trials this year,

even more interesting when it comes on the market in the autumn of next year and the price is announced. :roll:


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