# Grey water from kitchen sink getting into shower tray



## duetto96

The subject says it all really. I'm having terrible problems with a very slow draining kitchen sink and bathroom basin on my 2007 Tracker EK. My dealer promises to look at it when a replacement shower tray arrives but that is probably weeks away.

If I pull the plug on a significant amount of water in the kitchen sink, it drains very slowly and then perculates up through the shower tray plug hole. I know its not life or death but it is very unpleasant and jolly frustrating.

I'm guessing the slow draining feature is possibly related to the back flow up into the shower tray. Has anyone had similar to this or is there a budding plummer who could tell me if this sounds like a pipe run problem or a blockage? Even without a plug in either sink or basin, when either tap is turned on, the basin or sink immediately fills up. Its almost like the whole plumbing pipework is full of water right up to the plug holes.

I have ruled out any problem with van levelling and its the same whether the external grey water drain valve is open or shut. I'm planning to get underneath the van tomorrow (again) and see if I can find any pipework to check out. When I last looked there wasn't much to see at all and no connections to undo. There does appear to be an inspection panel under the shower tray though so I guess thats a starting point.

Any guidance greatly appreciated.

David


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## Zebedee

Give it some welly with a good old fashioned sink plunger David.

Chances are it's partially blocked somewhere, as the pipework is probably that awful narrow bore convoluted stuff which is guaranteed to collect gunge.

You may have to shove the plug(s) tightly into the shower tray drainage hole(s) to ensure the pressure is directed where you want it.

I plunge each drain separately while blocking all the others with their plugs when I do it.

Try a kettle of boiling water down the sink first in case it's a grease based blockage.

Hope it works for you. It does for me - far too frequently. :evil: :evil: :evil:


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## blondy

Could'nt agree more Dave, could be a good idea to get someone to hold the plugs down tight when using the plunger with vigour


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## 88870

I have had this problem .. not with the kitchen sink as it is a different drainage system but our bathroom sink used to spurt up into the shower. It drove me mad for a while until I had a complete brain fart one morning and just knew the answer!

The issue was that the overflow (air hole) on the tank under the van had become blocked (with scum). This meant that if water was to flow downwards, air had to come up wards and this involved displacing water into the shower tray. 

I had a poke around under the van around the drainage tank, it took me about 20 minutes to find the wee finger sized hole that existed at the top edge of the tank, then I poked my finger in to clear it and our problem was solved.

After typing this I have just re-read your post and realised that you say it is still the same with the drain hole open .... doh ... my answer would not help you then - sorry - but I am still going to post it as it took me so long to type and may help someone else I guess! Sorry


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## MikeH

*Sink to shower waste water*

Had the same problem on my EKS. You need to fit a non return valve between the shower waste pipe and the t junction where it meets the sink waste pipe. Dealer fitted mine and did others in stock at same time. The problem is the water doesn't know it has to turn left at the junction (inside rear locker) and it goes sraight on and up the shower tray. Mike H.


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## maddie

Hi in total agreement with zeb & blondy,if you fit a non reurn valve it may slow your drainage more.Water will always find the lowest point so in theory that will be your tank unless the pipes are blocked making it divert to the next lowest point of resitance, :lol: 
terry


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## duetto96

<<Give it some welly with a good old fashioned sink plunger David.>>

Zebedee... and this is why I'm also waiting for a replacement sink!! I didn't use excessive force (in my opinion) but I still ended up with a cracked basin, or maybe it was already cracked.

Let me re-emphasize part of my analysis. First, I think the grey water in the shower is the result of the problem, not the main problem. I hoping this will go away when whatever the problem is, is solved.

What I can't understand is that the kitchen sink will eventually drain, takes ages but it drains, irrespective of the external drain valve being open/closed. What I can't get my head around is that long after the sink has emptied, if I turn the tap on, without the plug in, the sink immediately fills. It isn't like the water goes down to the point of the blockage and then stops, its almost like the blockage is right there at both the kitchen sink plug hole and basin plug hole.

Without the plug in, I would have expected tap water to at least empty down either plug hole for a while and then backfill when the blockage/airlock/dead rat is reached and the plumbing is all full.

I think the habitation side of this van was virtually unused before I bought it a month ago so I really don't think it is a fat build up. It seems more of a design thing to me.

David


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## Zebedee

duetto96 said:


> <<Give it some welly with a good old fashioned sink plunger David.>>
> 
> Zebedee... and this is why I'm also waiting for a replacement sink!! I didn't use excessive force (in my opinion) but I still ended up with a cracked basin, or maybe it was already cracked.
> 
> David


At least great minds think alike David - pity you gave it too much welly, but I give ours quite a going over every so often so perhaps I've been lucky.

Only further thing I can suggest is get a tube of some kind to fit in the sink plughole quite snugly (_easier said than found_) and blow down it - making sure all the plugs, drain tap etc. are open. That way you will find out for certain whether it's a blockage or not and can progress from there.

You may have to shift a weight of water out of a dip in the pipe, so a good prolonged puff may be necessary, or you will think you have a blockage when you are only trying to blow a pint of water uphill. _(Does that make sense?)_

Sounds to me as if you have tried everything else, other than dismantling the system for a visual inspection and a firtle with a flexible poking device like a length of polythene tubing.

After that I'm stumped.

Hope this helps a bit anyway

Cheers


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## putties

My brother had the same problem Look under the back of the vehicle and you will see that the outlet pipe is higher than the rest of the pipe work so there is not a natural outlet flow, especially if you are slightly high on the rear when parked up. A few minor adjustments fixes the problem

Putties


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## clodhopper2006

Hi Dueto.

Same van here and same problem experienced by me. When I bought my van last year and this happened I reported it to my dealer, Perthshire Caravans. They advised me that there is a recall for this fault and a pipeing mod is done to fix it. They took it in to do this and a few other issues and whatever they did I've never had the problem again. 


Bob


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## duetto96

putties said:


> My brother had the same problem Look under the back of the vehicle and you will see that the outlet pipe is higher than the rest of the pipe work so there is not a natural outlet flow, especially if you are slightly high on the rear when parked up. A few minor adjustments fixes the problem
> 
> Putties


I'v just spent a pleasant hour on my back under the van. The plumbing is pretty much all hidden from view. I removed an inspection panel but no sign of any The first bit from the kitchen sink is visible in the cupboard underneath but then it disappears, never to be seen again.

I guess I need to wait for the experts to fix it. Hopefully they will make a better job of it than the habitation check the van had before I picked it up but, then again, perhaps a habitation check doesn't involve turning the taps on.

Thanks guys...


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## vmeldrew

I have the same problem and mentioned the recall Bob referred to in a previous thread to my dealer, who claimed Autotrail denied any recall, however dealer apparently has piping now to remedy the problem and my van was left with them today so here's hoping.


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## robrobrob3

We have EXACTLY the same probs with our 2007 Tracker! Suggest its to do with the pipe layout rather than your individual motoehome.
Robrobrob3


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## duetto96

I think I'v got to the bottom of this with the help of some AutoTrail expertise. First, this is a known problem but there isn't/wasn't a recall as such, presumably because it is not safety related. However, AutoTrail service agents should know about the problem, and fix, via the AutoTrail dealer service bulletin process.

I recommend you speak to your dealer direct and take what I say with a pinch of salt. However, my summary of what I believe is wrong is as follows:

The slow draining is (or can be) the result of too much waste pipe being left inside the waste tank at installation. The waste pipe should only protrude into the tank by 50mm but in some cases it can be significantly longer. If that doesn't fix the slow draining, it may be that the waste tank doesn't have the breather holes it should have in its top surface, one 20mm hole at either end. 

The problem with backfill from the sink into the shower tray is caused by a 'T' piece that joins the bathroom and kitchen waste to the waste pipe. This 'T' piece is directing sink water straight across the 'T' towards the bathroom rather than off to the waste tank. In my case, it only seaps into the shower tray when a reasonable amount of kitchen sink water is emptied. It is probably exacerbated by the slow draining problem. 

The fix is to put an offset in the pipe so waste water flows in the direction of the waste tank and not the shower. 

I'm hoping to get mine sorted next week. I'll let you know if it does the trick.

David


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## 90487

> duetto96 The fix is to put an offset in the pipe so waste water flows in the direction of the waste tank and not the shower.


A far better permanent fix would be to take out the "T" and have the shower & sink waste hoses extended. Drop the tank and drill another hole to accept the shower hose. Each hose has it's own hole. You now have less restrictive system 8) .

Introducing more bends to a bad system will only make it worse :roll:

Carol


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## 100004

Why do what the makers should have done in the first place? Bet the Germans don't have this prob. H


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## duetto96

duetto96 said:


> I think I'v got to the bottom of this with the help of some AutoTrail expertise. First, this is a known problem but there isn't/wasn't a recall as such, presumably because it is not safety related. However, AutoTrail service agents should know about the problem, and fix, via the AutoTrail dealer service bulletin process.


I'v now had my slow draining and shower tray 'fix's' applied which were not exactly successful. The first thing I did when I got the van back was fill the sink and basin, pull the plugs and watch the shower tray fill up! However, I have done a lot more testing and have found some interesting points which lead me to believe this van has a fundamental design problem causing the slow draining and as a consequence, the shower tray backfill.

First, I have checked that the dealer did in fact shorten the excess pipe inside the waste tank, and drill out the two breather holes in the tank per AutoTrail service bulletins. I also know that there is no blockage in the pipe that takes the waste water from the kitchen sink right through to the waste tank.

The problem, in my opinion, is compounded by a combination of the small bore pipework used on the waste side and the non existant drop in the waste pipe which runs from the rear of the van into the waste tank. That waste pipe is effectively horizontal, it being secured to the underside of the floor of the van.

Now, if I fill the sink quite full with water and pull the plug, the water drains (slowly) but it drains. (Because of the small bore waste pipe, it can't get through the waste pipe quick enough so it backfills into the shower tray but thats a side issue). Assume that this was greasy washing up water that coated the sink with grease. Now I need to fill the sink with a more miserly amount of water to swill the sink around but when I do that, that water just sits there. Visually, it looks like that water isn't going to go anywhere but after a minute or two, it eventually does, leaving behind the original greasy sink.

So, the key to this seems to be the amount of water in the sink. A big sink full will very slowly drain. A small sink full will sit there for an eternity even though there is no physical blockage or air lock.

I can only conclude that a large volume eventually creates a slow syphon effect but the small volume doesn't create enough gravitational pressure to get past the 'U' bend immediately under the sink or to create enough of a flow to create the syphon that the large volume does. In an ideal world I guess gravity and adequate venting alone should do the trick.

What really worries me is that I'm beginning to think that without larger bore pipework and a half decent drop into the waste pipe this van will always have this problem.

Your thoughts greatly appreciated.

David


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## baldybazza

Hi David

We have similar problem on our new Cheyenne, large volume of water in either kitchen or bathroom goes down fairly well but small amount can sit there forever. We were told by our dealer that Autotrail knew there was a design fault with last years vans but it has been fixed for this years but it obviously hasn't. We have used a plunger but will be careful now in case we crack the basin. 

I think we will have to get our dealer to sort it out because its so frustrating.

Jan


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## maddie

Hi David, did you try the squashed up dishwash cloth/ plunger? This has a forcing effect and suction.I found it worked a treat in the old van :wink: It is a fault all makers get and the only way to avoid it would be to higher the shower tray which is not ideal :lol: The one way valve slows your dranage even more,Try the small plunger, I think you will be suprised and will find it more able to live with .
terry


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## duetto96

maddie said:


> Hi David, did you try the squashed up dishwash cloth/ plunger? This has a forcing effect and suction.I found it worked a treat in the old van :wink: It is a fault all makers get and the only way to avoid it would be to higher the shower tray which is not ideal :lol: The one way valve slows your dranage even more,Try the small plunger, I think you will be suprised and will find it more able to live with .
> terry


Hi Maddie,

The problem with the backfill into the shower tray is a secondary problem (IMO) and symptomatic of sink water not being able to drain through the waste pipe quick enough. There is no blockage as such, just small bore drainage pipe, a dependency on the volume of water being emptied and a bad design.

I do have a small plunger and I can and have used it to some effect. I just can't get away from the feeling that a van that cost practically £40k shouldn't need such actions to perform such a basic function every time you pull the plug. I just think the plumbing is flawed and it really takes the edge of enjoying the van when you are constantly left with a dirty sink and/or basin that you can't swill around.

It isn't just my van either. I think a lot of people either use plungers or put up with the problem, or in the case of the person who owned the van before me, didn't even use the sink.

David


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## duetto96

I have just done some 'scientific' experiments with fixed quantities of water (using readily available plastic milk bottles) and how quick various volumes of water takes to drain. It confirms my previous thoughts and that of other contributors.

First, I filled our standard domestic sink with 6.75 litres of water (12 pints) just to check what is 'normal' and acceptable in a typical household setting. It took just on 10 seconds to empty our household sink from the time the plug was pulled out.

Now I filled the Tracker sink with the same volume for comparison purposes. (This equates to 3 inches depth in the middle of the sink). It took 41 seconds to empty. Four times as long as the domestic sink. If this was greasy washing up water it would leave a tide mark that needed further swilling around. 

Next I used 1 litre of water to 'swill' the sink around. Just pulling the plug on 1 litre took between 78 seconds and 101 seconds to empty. This is barely a half an inch of water!

Finally, I agitated, swirled and plunged (using my palm) 1 litre of water and the best I achieved was 54 seconds to empty the sink. 54 seconds to empty just 1 litre and just 41 seconds to empty nearly 7 times as much! The equivalent in our domestic sink takes less that 2 seconds to drain. 

To summarize:

6.75 litres (3"  depth) = 41 seconds
2.27 litres (1" depth) = 30 seconds
1.00 litres (1/2" depth) = 90 seconds average 
1.00 litres (1/2" depth) = 54 seconds with significant agitation

There is a fundamental design problem with this van and I'm locked in a stalemate between dealer and manufacturer regarding who should fix it and from my own perspective, what is acceptable given that we all know most vans do not have domestic plumbing.

If there is anyone out there who could perform similar tests on their own van to help me determine what is normal and acceptable I would be so grateful.

David


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## baldybazza

Hi David,

Our dealer has drilled a further vent hole in the top of our waste tank and it seems to have made quite a difference to the speed of draining, although we have only tested it on our driveway (level) and not on a campsite/wildcamp spot (usually not level).So at present it looks acceptable but watch this space. :roll: 

Barrie


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## 110587

*grey water from kitchen sink*

We recently sent our new cheyenne back to the dealer for a modification, they installed a separate supply for the shower, however it take still takes over 10 minutes to empty a full sink, the dealer says it a problem with autotrails, it the best hey can do ?.

We taken to carrying a waste master and leaving the waste tank open, what is the point of having a onboard tank ?


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## zulurita

We must be reasonably lucky then. This is our 2nd Cheyenne 660. No problems on the 2004 model. 

Our 57 plate 2008 model Cheyenne 660 seems to drain ok at the kitchen sink. not noticed any water going into the shower tray but then we have a couple of buckets etc in the shower area and a mat but haven't noticed any wetness when removing items for a shower.

I did notice the toilet sink is a little slower (at times) to drain but only slightly.

Our main issue is when filling the freshwater tank that we lose some of its contents when driving off (reported in another post) we have a temporary bung in the freshwater overflow pipe. This seems to be effective and we are careful not to over fill.

The dealer is supposed to be doing work on this come monday but I am a bit unsure about the modification as other members have reported the freshwater tank collapsing after this modification! Will discuss this with the dealer on monday.


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## cunny

Your Dealer should know that this is a problem. I have just had my 2008 Autotrail cheyenne re- plummed. A bulletin came out about this problem to all autotrail dealers.


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