# Border Terrier - Barking at other dogs



## travelsRus2

Before I consult a 'dog therapist' - doesn anyone know why my 16 month old Border terrier (dog) has started barking at every dog he sees - he is playful off the lead but once on it as soon as he sees a dog he goes quite mad. He either stops and crawls towards them or just barks. we are off to France in a few weeks and at the moment can't even pass a dog in the street without him being quite aggressive. He was attacked by a 'staffy' about 4 months ago and until then would happily meet any dog but now seems to want to 'get in first' no matter the size of the dog. Any advice greatly received.

Chris (and Archie)


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## monkton

Hi. I am no expert on dog behaviour but as a dog owner myself I have read up on these issues. I suspect that the attack on your dog by the 'staffy' is the key to all of this. The 'crawling' is, I suspect, him saying to the other dog.......it's okay, don't attack me, I'm totally subservient. The 'barking' on other occasions is him being a little braver and warning the other dog off. A lot of this behaviour is also to do with the Alpha dog syndrome, where your dog considers himself to be the 'pack leader' and as such feels that he does not have any control of his situation when on a lead. There is a very good book that explains dog behaviour called 'The Dog Whisperer' which is worth a read. I'm sure someone will come along and shoot my theories down in flames but I hope you are able to overcome your difficulties soon.


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## skratt

Mr Monkton is quite right. 
The best thing to do is to let your dog get reaquainted with strange dogs.
At the moment you are probably pulling your dog away and projecting your nervousness onto him. Try just chilling and letting him approach the other dog. If he plays up just calmly let him know your displeasure and gently walk on, then, when he is ready resume his aquaintance with the other dog. This breaks the vicous circle and Eventually both you and your dog will be less nervous.
Alpha dog behavior is to be avoided ... let your dog know whos boss by being quietly in charge at all times. Be pack leader !!!! but be calm.

skratt  

My old man was a racehorse trainer and general animal genius .... he didnt like humans much though.


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## wakk44

Hi Chris and Archie,

I have had a similar problem with my Kerry Blue Terrier and after a couple of months of intensive training he is now much better.It was embarrasing having my dog rearing up on it's hind legs and foaming at the mouth whenever a large male dog walked past,strangely he is lovely with bitches and puppies.

I starting watching 'The Dog Whisperer'on Sky 3 (ch.108 every weekday at 6pm)The results that Cesar Milan achieves particularly with aggressive dogs are remarkable.

He uses dog physcology and tries to anticipate a problem before it arises,if you have got Sky I recommend you watch it.

It sounds like your Border Terrier has decided to attack first after his experience with the staffie,having previously owned a Border for 13 years I am not surprised they are feisty little devils.

You will have to correct Archie before he gets into an aggressive state,to make it clear to him that his behaviour is unacceptable.A sharp tug on the lead and a simultaneous voice command of no or hey.Timing is crucial,watch your dog as another dog approaches and as soon as you see any aggressive signs correct him.

Try to remain calm and assertive,do not shout or this will only make him worse,he will feed off of your negative energy.If this doesn't work then a slight tap on his flanks with your foot or a walking stick-just hard enough to get his attention,do *not* hurt the dog.

If you still have problems then assert your authority by sitting him down and correcting any aggression again with lead and voice correction while the other dog walks past.

If you do not intend to breed with Archie and the aggression is still bad then you may want to consider neutering,this should calm him down.

I can now walk past male dogs and Ky will ignore them,although he still gives them the Kerry glare and I would never let him off the lead,my biggest problem now is other owners with their dogs running loose saying 'it's all right he only wants to play' :x

Good luck and be patient whilst remaining calm,don't forget that the timing of your corrections is the most important thing.

Steve


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## Zebedee

monkton said:


> Hi. I am no expert on dog behaviour but as a dog owner myself I have read up on these issues. I suspect that the attack on your dog by the 'staffy' is the key to all of this. The 'crawling' is, I suspect, him saying to the other dog.......it's okay, don't attack me, I'm totally subservient. The 'barking' on other occasions is him being a little braver and warning the other dog off. A lot of this behaviour is also to do with the Alpha dog syndrome, where your dog considers himself to be the 'pack leader' and as such feels that he does not have any control of his situation when on a lead. There is a very good book that explains dog behaviour called 'The Dog Whisperer' which is worth a read. I'm sure someone will come along and shoot my theories down in flames but I hope you are able to overcome your difficulties soon.


No shooting from me - it's very sound advice.

The book is by Cesar Millan (The "Dog Whisperer"), and its title is "Cesar's Way" ISBN 978-0-307-33797-9.

(He has written a second book entitled "Be the Pack Leader" but I don't know the ISBN number.)

He or his co-writer has a rather strange literary style, and some of it is waffle. He is also a bit keen on name dropping and giving his life history - but it's still quite interesting once you get into it.

There is a lot of really good stuff in there, and it's all broken down into little self-contained sections. A bit laboured at times, but he is writing primarily for an American audience! :roll: One of the really strong points of the book is his attempts to see the world from a dog's viewpoint, and it makes pretty good sense on the whole. (He doesn't understand "intermittent reinforcement" but we can forgive him for that I guess.)

You could always watch a few of his programmes on Sky - he certainly knows how to handle dogs - and people!!

It's one of the best books I have come across, although I believe there's a very good one by Dr. Bruce Fogle (Ben's Dad) but I haven't seen it.

Hope this helps

*P.S. Wish I could type faster - beaten to it again!!!!*


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## Grockel

Hi Chris, I'm no expert either but my experience with a border cross (who sadly died last month) barking at other dogs when he was young was solved by rattling a tin can with stones inside each time he barked followed by a stern NO!
Costs nowt, worth a try?
I now have a 6 month Border terrier who does seem well behaved..... at the moment!
Cheers, Glyn


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## monkton

Hi Wakk44. Good to meet (if not in person) another Kerry Blue owner.


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## Broom

Hi Chris

It is definitely the attack you need to reassure Archie stroke and fuss him in front of the other dogs do not shout or be aggressive with him, he has lost his confidence but with reassurance he will come round.

Is he a blue and tan like Mitsi

Best Regards
Adrian


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## Zebedee

Broom said:


> Hi Chris
> 
> It is definitely the attack you need to reassure Archie stroke and fuss him in front of the other dogs do not shout or be aggressive with him, he has lost his confidence but with reassurance he will come round.
> 
> Is he a blue and tan like Mitsi
> 
> Best Regards
> Adrian


Sorry Adrian, I don't agree. :?

The great danger with fussing him in that situation is that, *in his mind* you may well be *rewarding *precisely the behaviour you want to stamp out.

He meets another dog, gets a bit tense and maybe gives a little growl, so you fuss him. He thinks, "_Oh, the boss is pleased with me. I must be doing the right thing here - I'll growl a bit louder and give this other dog a real bashing. Then the boss will think I'm wonderful and fuss me even more_."

The only way is to instantly stop and calm him down as passively as you can. Don't even speak to him any more than you have to, since this will be perceived as a reward. Definitely offer no fuss or reassurance until he is calm and quiet, and preferably facing away from the other dog. Even then don't go over the top!! Just stroke his ears and tell him he's a good dog.

Now try to get him up and moving again without being aggressive - but the chances are the moment you "break the spell" he will be off again. There's no option but to stop, calm, face away, then a small reward, and continue the cycle again.

If you have a patient friend with a dog which is not aggressive, ask them to sit on a bench and let you approach with your dog. That way the other dog will have much less dynamic influence on the situation and you can concentrate on controlling your own dog.

It won't happen overnight, and you must be very careful never to reward undesirable behaviour. When you have made some progress and he realises it is not acceptable to be aggressive, you may be able to nip the problem in the bud. At the first sign of even a tensing of his body posture, and long before he starts growling, give a quick snatch of the lead (_not a vicious yank - just enough to grab his attention_) and a firm "No" - and sound as if you mean it. You are *telling *him as his pack leader, not *asking him nicely* as his mate!!

Easier said than done I know, but it's the only way. To control a dog you have to think like him - it's no good trying to reason with him 'cos he can't speak your language. You will have to learn his!!!

Hope this helps.


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## Broom

Hi Dave

Well said, my main point was not to be aggressive with him you need to keep the chain of command but not too forcefully, otherwise I agree with all your comment

Best regards
Broom


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## Rapide561

*Dog barking*

Hi

My advice would be to see a dog trainer.

Mum and dad had a dog and she was terrified of thunder, fireworks and so on. By sitting with and stroking the dog etc, it was almost like giving her praise - she became even more anxious.

Many of you will remember Oscar. He was quite afraid of other dogs and I took him to a training class. He tried to sit on my knees, even hide from the other dogs. The teacher told me to simply distract his attention and so on. It was a long old slog, but he could later walk past any dog with no concern. I can remember at Garda walking past a house with Alsations in the garden, and despite their barking, Oscar never battered an eyelid, although he did cock his leg up on the garden gate.

See a specialist. Keith Dickinson in Barnsley has a good reputation - phone for a chat.

Russell


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## wakk44

Zebedee said:


> Broom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Chris
> 
> It is definitely the attack you need to reassure Archie stroke and fuss him in front of the other dogs do not shout or be aggressive with him, he has lost his confidence but with reassurance he will come round.
> 
> Is he a blue and tan like Mitsi
> 
> Best Regards
> Adrian
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Adrian, I don't agree. :?
> 
> The great danger with fussing him in that situation is that, *in his mind* you may well be *rewarding *precisely the behaviour you want to stamp out.
> 
> He meets another dog, gets a bit tense and maybe gives a little growl, so you fuss him. He thinks, "_Oh, the boss is pleased with me. I must be doing the right thing here - I'll growl a bit louder and give this other dog a real bashing. Then the boss will think I'm wonderful and fuss me even more_."
> 
> The only way is to instantly stop and calm him down as passively as you can. Don't even speak to him any more than you have to, since this will be perceived as a reward. Definitely offer no fuss or reassurance until he is calm and quiet, and preferably facing away from the other dog. Even then don't go over the top!! Just stroke his ears and tell him he's a good dog.
> 
> Now try to get him up and moving again without being aggressive - but the chances are the moment you "break the spell" he will be off again. There's no option but to stop, calm, face away, then a small reward, and continue the cycle again.
> 
> If you have a patient friend with a dog which is not aggressive, ask them to sit on a bench and let you approach with your dog. That way the other dog will have much less dynamic influence on the situation and you can concentrate on controlling your own dog.
> 
> It won't happen overnight, and you must be very careful never to reward undesirable behaviour. When you have made some progress and he realises it is not acceptable to be aggressive, you may be able to nip the problem in the bud. At the first sign of even a tensing of his body posture, and long before he starts growling, give a quick snatch of the lead (_not a vicious yank - just enough to grab his attention_) and a firm "No" - and sound as if you mean it. You are *telling *him as his pack leader, not *asking him nicely* as his mate!!
> 
> Easier said than done I know, but it's the only way. To control a dog you have to think like him - it's no good trying to reason with him 'cos he can't speak your language. You will have to learn his!!!
> 
> Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Excellent post Dave,I agree entirely,I can't really see why you should pay for a dog behaviour specialist when there is invaluable information available on this forum.If you want to spend your money then fair enough but you can get the knowledge you need on here.Zebedee obviously thinks like Cesar Millan and he is the best dog trainer there is imo.

Steve


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## travelsRus2

Thank you for your interesting replies. I will try to put into practice some of the things mentioned before consulting an 'expert'. I have plenty of ideas to work with so thank you all very much.


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## Zebedee

travelsRus2 said:


> Thank you for your interesting replies. I will try to put into practice some of the things mentioned before consulting an 'expert'. I have plenty of ideas to work with so thank you all very much.


Good luck Chris.

Don't expect Archie to change his ways overnight. It will take quite a while and a lot of patience, but just think of all the cash you will save (dog shrinks don't come cheap) and far more importantly the satisfaction you will get from helping your little mate to reform!

Cheers


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## Broom

Hi Chris

What about some photos of Archie, lets have a look at him

Best Regards
Broom


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## claypigeon

Is he a blue and tan like Mitsi 

Hi Broom mine is her name is molly and she is 13 months old.

Dave


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## Broom

Hi Dave

They are great dogs Mitsi loves to be on the go walking chasing rabbits ect, post a photo of yours

Best Regards
broom


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## wakk44

Broom said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> They are great dogs Mitsi loves to be on the go walking chasing rabbits ect, post a photo of yours
> 
> Best Regards
> broom


Must agree we had Brandy for 13 years,a wonderful family pet and also a game terrier,rats,rabbits,even foxes she was fearless,still sadly missed 12 years later.

If it wasn't for the fact that they shed hair and our 14 year old suffers from allergic asthma I would have another tomorrow.We have decided to go for a Welsh Terrier pup(see the ticker) as a companion for our Kerry.

Steve


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## 101723

Our Border is called Monty, we were in llanberis at the weekend and spent an hour trying to find him after he ran off chasing rabbits I think! then he just just strolled back as if nothing had happened. 

He only tends to bark at next door's cat even though he is perfectly happy with our cat, but if I firmly say no! he will stop.



This Monty, we always told him not to talk to strangers!


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## 107012

At 18 months, he's going to be bolshy. Go as advised by the other posters and don't make a fuss about it. Dogs feel a lot more threatened on the lead as they feel quite understandinglyl cornered. Imagine that you have your hands tied and someone comes at you with a knife? Not a good feeling eh? There is only one way of escape for the dog on lead and that is attack first, loose dogs have the option of running away.
Good luck with him.


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## annetony

Hi Terrier

, I seem to have seen a picture of that sculpture on the beach in the local evening post, but cant remember where it is, I know its pretty local,
by the way we are not far from you, Chorley, so if you see a little Harmony with MHF sticker on front screen, give us a shout, we usually have a ride to the docks some Sundays, just to get out of the house  


Anne & Tony


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## Zebedee

annetony said:


> Hi Terrier
> 
> , I seem to have seen a picture of that sculpture on the beach in the local evening post, but cant remember where it is, I know its pretty local,
> by the way we are not far from you, Chorley, so if you see a little Harmony with MHF sticker on front screen, give us a shout, we usually have a ride to the docks some Sundays, just to get out of the house
> 
> Anne & Tony


"_That sculpture_" Anne. There are dozens of them  >>here<< 

Cheers


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## annetony

Thanks Zebedee, I thought Southport somewhere, but I guess its not far from there :lol: 

Anne


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## claypigeon

*Molly the border & Jake the Springer*



Broom said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> They are great dogs Mitsi loves to be on the go walking chasing rabbits ect, post a photo of yours
> 
> Best Regards
> broom


if i knew how to i would


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## 107088

*Dog stuff*

Like many of the replies, we watched Cesar, and really, having in a way tried to apply his techniques, our Border collie, who is fear aggressive, has improved dramatically.
Although he still has problems, we now do not treat him as en equal, and is much much happier. He still doesnt like other dogs running up to him, and he will attack given the chance, although if the other dog retreats, then our stops . We are trying to establish the fact that as leaders of the pact, WE make the decision about whether or not an attack is needed, and because we lead, our dog doesn't have the right to decide for himself.
I am not a trainer, nor am I expert in dog behavior, however, since reading the book, and watching the programme, we have made great strides. It is, however, a continual, ongoing, never ending job. One thing we notice with the Whisperer, is that he always trains on a lead, whereas, most of our problems arise when Bill is free. 
Other dog owners seem uncaring about controlling their dogs in the main, but we never, ever, reassure or praise the dog during the inappropriate behavior. Persevere, and you will succeed.


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## claypigeon

Hi Broom i just learned how to do it as in put photos on here.

Dave


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## thieawin

Your dogs behavious is nothing to do with its having been attacked. It is everything to do with owners who should not be allowed to keep dogs because they have no idea how to train or control them.

Ceasr is good, so is dog borstal and so was the "sit" lady. They all teach one thing, apart from the very odd in bred psycopath dog, it is the owners who cause te ptoblems for their dogs by not establishing who is boss from day one.


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## Broom

Hi Dave

Great photos you sorted the posting attachments OK.

Terrier good photo I bet you were tempted to tie off the lead in another place or is that just my mind, keep us posted on their antics

Gone of Topic again 

best regards
broom


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## Zebedee

annetony said:


> Thanks Zebedee, I thought Southport somewhere, but I guess its not far from there :lol:
> 
> Anne


Hi Anne

We were staying on the CC site at Southport when we visited. It's a wiggly journey up the coast and around a few bays and headlands, but not far. Plenty of parking when you get there - think it is free if you go down the far end.

Please try to resist how we saw one young lady posing for a photo. Let's say she found a convenient handle on one of the statues to keep her balance on the uneven sand.   

Cheers


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## Zebedee

thieawin said:


> It is everything to do with owners who should not be allowed to keep dogs because they have no idea how to train or control them.


Well done Thieawin. A simple extension of your theory would solve the world population problem at a stroke. :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: 8O

Don't anybody take this seriously - it is a joke (I think!!) :?: :roll: :?


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## thieawin

No joke

Have three Jack Russells, hard work to train, but all Ok. They know who is top dog

Always on lead except when in garden which is colditz fenced becuase they dig and climb if the challenge is there.

My experience is most dog owners are not fit to be allowed to keep dogs, all this cooing and aahing and anthropomorphising into babies and quasi children for a start. FFS they are dogs, and secondly they have no control over them, allowing them to become a nuisnace to everyone, including other dog owners, letting run looose when they know wthey will not return on command, not clearing up etc


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## Zebedee

thieawin said:


> No joke
> 
> Have three Jack Russells, hard work to train, but all Ok. They know who is top dog
> 
> Always on lead except when in garden which is colditz fenced becuase they dig and climb if the challenge is there.
> 
> My experience is most dog owners are not fit to be allowed to keep dogs, all this cooing and aahing and anthropomorphising into babies and quasi children for a start. FFS they are dogs, and secondly they have no control over them, allowing them to become a nuisnace to everyone, including other dog owners, letting run looose when they know wthey will not return on command, not clearing up etc


I think you missed the point of my quip, but can't argue with the rest of your comments.

My pup is on my lap as I type and we are very fond of her and have nothing against a bit of cooing and aaahing, and I must admit she is being spoiled a bit in some ways.

She is also being very thoroughly trained and is just as headstrong as your Jacks (she's a Welsh) but none of our dogs has been allowed to be a nuisance to others and this one will be the same.

The big problem at the moment is jumping up to greet people, and plastering her muddy paws on their clean clothes. It's a very natural puppy behaviour and is quite difficult to train, but it is NOT helped by people who immediately start cooing and calling her, then wail and moan about the muddy paw prints! :evil: :evil: :evil:

I am training her to sit and wait to be approached for a bit of fuss, and even at six months it does work - but only if the other party will co-operate. What really pees me off is the daft buggers who say, "Oh I don't mind - I love dogs". I'm pleased they do like dogs, but I DO mind when their thoughtlessness is constantly ruining my efforts to train my dog - especially when she goes OTT as puppies always do, and they end up plastered with mud and inclined then to complain.

Rant over, but I agree with you, it is possible to love dogs and still keep them under control and (mostly  ) in their place.

Cheers

P.S. She has just galloped down stairs to attack the hoover, and I'm very pleased to hear my wife controlling her by making her sit quietly at a distance and stop the barking. Two or three barks, and all I can hear now is the hoover. It's hard work as you say, but it can be done without harming or upsetting the dog in any way.

Most of them especially bitches, don't really want to be the pack leader. They try it on of course, but are quite relieved when you establish leadership and accept all the responsibilities that go with it - and they can then relax and enjoy a "dog's life!!


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