# LPG/Diesel Systems



## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

I made an enquiry about using LPG with Diesel,here is the reply : 


Thank you for your enquiry about LPG/Diesel systems for your American RV. 
We can supply you a kit which will increase the performance and economy of your diesel vehicle. 

The system adds approx 20% LPG to the existing diesel fuelling which acts as a catalyst and burns the diesel more efficiently. 

Inlet air to the engine is ‘fumigated’ with LPG by means of a gas regulator unit which reacts to the loads on the engine to supply the appropriate quantity of LPG. 

This gives an increase in power, reduction in emissions and improvement in economy. 

It is possible to add a higher percentage of LPG which gives even more power increase, but this is not advised as engine damage could occur due to overfuelling 

Economy depends on driving style, if you use all the power economy will be limited, driving normally typically returns 25 – 30% economy. 

The equipment is simple to fit and contains everything you need for the conversion including instructions. 

A full kit with a tank for your R.V. will cost £400 + vat or you can use you existing domestic tank to feed the system - we can supply the rest of the equipment you need for £295+ vat. 

Please call or email if you need any more details. 

Best Regards 

Richard, Andrew & Tony - Tinley Tech Sales/technical 


I should add that my enquiry related to a 5.9lt turbo charged Cummins engine. 



Jim


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## 89309 (May 19, 2005)

That is very interesting.

I though that to use LPG you had to drill the manifold and install injectors.

Have you tried vegetable oil, it's cheaper than diesel and perfectly legal as long as you register as an alternative energy user.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Trevor

never thought of using veg oil, is it readily available ?
Don't fancy using the old chippy oil .. :lol: :lol:

I'm definately going to have the LPG conversion done though, that plus veg oil might be a winner :wink:

Just found this link on running on veg oil 
http://www.rodbowen.co.uk/daniel/home.htm


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

>>HERE<<is one. >>ANOTHER<< >>ANOTHER<<. There are lot's out there. :wink:


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

I'm surprised that no one on here has had this mod. or perhaps they're keeping quiet, I would love to hear from someone with first hand experience. 

Most of you will have diesel engines and with rising costs 25 - 30 % better fuel consumption is not insignificant. 

I have made further enquiries about the consumption of LPG .. It is typically 200 ml per litre of diesel. 
I will keep you posted of developments.  


Jim


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## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

Hi All
Am I missing something here? If you are infusing LPG into the air intake and that is improving the quality of the burn, would not argue this because I don't know, and in turn this is giving you a saving of 25-30%, on a litre of Diesel that represents a saving of about say 25p (currently Diesel is on sale locally at 94.9p so I have rounded that up). Now with LPG costing, last time I looked, around 70p, that at 200ml / litre of Diesel is costing say 15p that is a saving, 'if you drive carefully', of 10p per litre. Is that worth it? Would you not get savings in that sort of region 'if you drove carefully' anyway?
Not being argumentative but it seems to me a lot to lay out for littlr real improvement, I can see the justification of a petrol engine running on gas, (even that takes alot of miles to justify) but this seems a bit unrealistic to me.


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Hi *Paulway*. There is also the decrease emissions to take into consideration too. :wink:


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## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

Have to say that is of little concern to me, not being a subscriber to Global Warming Theory.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi paulway 
Thanks for your input, but your pricing is a little off .. 

LPG is currently around 35p/lt and even cheaper abroad, so using 200ml per litre of diesel would add 7p to the price of a litre of fuel. 
At present i get around 3 mls per litre (14mpg) , diesel costs 95p then its costing 31.6p per mile. 

Add into the equation 7p fuel now costs 102p/lt 
if i get a 25% improvement i would get 4.75 mls per litre it now costs 
21.5p per mile, a saving of almost 10 p per mile .. 
On a trip of say 2000 mls that's a saving of £200 

I would say that makes it very worth while .. 

Plus an increase in power ( if needed ) albeit at the expense of fuel economy


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## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

Hi there

I accept what you say regarding the cost of LPG I was working on my recollection of seeing it for sale at 63p a while back, but not to many selling it where I live so I cannot say that I have noticed the regular pricing.
However I may be wrong but I cannot see where you are getting your figures from either.
Using your figures you get 14 mpg equating to 3mpl.
With Deisel at 95p /l gives 31.6p/m.
Adding 7p for the 200ml LPG makes the overal cost 102p/l
BUT surely 25% improvement on 3mpl surely is 0.75mile NOT 1.75mile
Therefore should read 3.75mls/l = 27p/litre against the origional 31.6p saving 4.6p/l
Using your 2000miles = £72 saving, a lot less than your suggestion.
As I already have said possibly obtainable by 'driving sensibly' anyway.
Just finding it difficult to justify in terms of saving but I can see the possible power benifit, for the same reason that I fitted a turbo to mine, which by the way also gave me an improvement of about 25% in terms of MPG.


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Another way to increase the power of a Diesel which may also aid in the economy too. Is to inject water. :wink:


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Paulway 

Looks like I made an error in the calculation  thanks for pointing it out. 

I take on board all you say, I already drive sensibly and getting 14 mpg isn't bad for my rv and it already has a turbo. 
Saving around £72 on a 2000 mal trip is still quite a bit , installation costs of about £470 would take about 13,000 mels to recover . as you said, not as attractive as I first suggested .. :? But still worthy of consideration 

Hi John 

tell us more about the water injection system , I've only heard hearsay about it 


Jim


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Hi *Jim*. Take a look at >>THIS <<. :wink:


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

You might also be interested to read >> THIS <<. The following is a USA method of actually producing your own fuel. :roll: :wink:

Biodiesel!

What is biodiesel? Simply put, it is diesel fuel that is made from vegetable oil. It will run in any unmodified diesel engine. It has many advantages over petroleum diesel fuel such as: 1) It burns cleaner 2) It has a higher cetane rating (less knocking) 3) It has better lubricity 4) You can make it yourself from used vegetable oil (a waste product) often for less than the cost of petroleum diesel.

How to make your first batch of biodiesel:

You will need the following things to make your first batch:

1) At least 1 Litre (1.1 Quart) vegetable oil. Canola oil, corn oil, soybean oil, etc will suffice.

2) A variable speed blender with a slow speed option. Use one with a glass pitcher only. The methanol that is used in this process will "eat" a plastic pitcher. Make sure that this blender will never be used for food products again.

3) A scale that will accurately measure 3.5 grams (.12 oz). I use a triple beam balance available through Edmund Scientific. Search the site for the keyword "balance". A good scale will cost between $100 and $200 and is a good investment. However, if you are on a budget, you can get the Edmund Scientific "Carry-With-You Twin Beam Balance" (Stock Number: CR30360-2 which will weigh up to 4 grams. This costs $25.

4) 1 bottle Red Devil Lye Drain Cleaner (Sodium Hydroxide) available from you local hardware store. Make sure the label says "contains sodium hydroxide". Most other drain cleaners are chlorine (Calcium Hypochlorite) based and will NOT work! Notice: Lye is poisonous! Take all necessary safety precautions!!

5) At least 200 milliliters (6.8 fl. oz) of methanol (Methyl Alcohol or "Wood" Alcohol). Methanol is widely available in 12 oz. quantities as "gas tank antifreeze" in auto parts stores, hardware stores and even some grocery stores. Popular brands include "Heet" and "Pyroil". Read the label carefully and make sure it says "contains methanol"! Many gas line antifreeze products contain isopropyl alcohol or "isopropanol" and will NOT work! Methanol is available in larger quantities as racing fuel through some racetracks that cater to drag racers and some "high performance" auto parts stores. Keep in mind that Methanol is both poisonous and flammable. Take all necessary safety precautions!!

6) A glass container that is marked for 200 milliliters (6.8 fl. oz). We like to use a beaker.

7) A glass or plastic container that is marked for 1 liter (1.1 Quart)

A wide mouth glass or plastic container that will hold at least 1.5 litres

9) A common spoon (preferably plastic or stainless steel).

10) Safety Glasses and Rubber Gloves! Methanol and Lye are extremely poisonous and must not come into contact with skin or eyes! Methanol is a poison that attacks the eyes (ocular nerves) even if it comes into contact with your hands. Use extreme care when blending the methanol and lye, as the blender can spash the chemicals around. Put on your glasses and gloves BEFORE opening the chemicals! Do your work close to a sink or hose, or have a bucket of water handy to wash any part of your body immediately if it comes in contact with these chemicals.

Step 1: Get organized in a well lit, well ventilated area! This process is best done at or above room temperature (70 degrees F or 21 Degrees C). Temperatures lower than 60 F or 15 C may cause an incomplete reaction. Plan for spills by spreading paper or plastic on your work surface. Put your safety glasses and gloves on before opening any chemicals!

"Heet" is a popular brand of "gas line antifreeze" in the US. It is widely available in auto parts stores, hardware stores and even some grocery stores.

Make sure that the label says "Contains Methanol"

Measure 200 milliliters (6.8 fl. oz) of methanol

Pour the methanol into the blender.

Notice the glass pitcher on the blender.

Weigh out 3.5 grams of lye on your scale. Notice that we use a white piece of plastic to hold the lye. The weight of the plastic is 4 grams, so we set the scale to 7.5 grams.

Turn the blender on "slow" speed and slowly add the lye to the methanol. You now have a mixture called "sodium methoxide". The methoxide must be used right away to make biodiesel. Do not plan on making a large batch of methoxide and storing it for use later. It loses its potency over time.

After the Lye has completly dissolved into the methanol (about 2 minutes), add 1 liter of vegetable oil to the blender. Blend on low speed for 20 to 30 minutes. The ideal speed for this process just barely creates a vortex or "tornado" in the oil without spashing the mixture around or frothing it up.

After the blending is complete, pour the mixture into the wide mouth jar. It is advisable to label all containers used in this project as "POISON"! And of course, keep all of this stuff away from children!

After about 30 minutes to 1 hour, you will notice a layer of darker colored glycerin settling to the bottom of the container. The lighter layer on top is biodiesel. Wait another few hours for complete settling. At that point, you can carefully pour off the lighter biodiesel from the top and discard the glycerin (or save the glycerin to use in soapmaking). An alternative would be to use a pump to remove the biodiesel from the jar. You are done!

Biodiesel has a solvent effect on natural rubber hoses and seals. While newer diesel engines have polymer hoses and seals (such as Dupont's "Viton" brand), older engines may need to be outfitted with new hoses and/or seals made of viton. Since most diesel injector pumps don't have rubber parts directly in contact with the fuel, it is usually easy to replace hoses and seals without any major dissasembly. A fuel mixture of 20% biodiesel and 80% petroleum diesel (called "B20") will have no effect on older natural rubber hoses.

Biodiesel will "cloud" at temperatures below 55 degrees F (13 degrees C). While this "clouding" is easily reversible by raising the temperature of the fuel again to above 55 degrees, it may cause temporary clogging of your fuel system, thus stopping your engine. Petroleum diesel fuel (Diesel #2) can be used down to -10 degrees F (-24 degrees C). It is advisable to use a blend of at least 50% petroleum diesel with your biodiesel if you are going to be operating in cold weather. You can experiment with different blends of biodiesel and petroleum diesel to determine what works best. Simply mix up batches of fuel with different ratios of petroleum diesel and biodiesel in glass jars and put in a freezer. Use a thermometer to determine the temperature of the fuel. Periodically check on the fuel to determine at what temperature it gets cloudy. This temperature is the "cloud point". It is best to determine this point at home before you head out on the road and get stranded in a snowstorm because your mixture is too rich in biodiesel. Of course, if you are going to be operating during the warm months, or in a warm climate, you can use 100% biodiesel with no problems. 8)


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

yikes ... 8O 8O think i'll try the LPG first .. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

:lol: There is another thing which refers to Diesel economy by Cummins which you may find an interesing read. It is in the form of a PDF file. >> HERE <<. :wink:


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Here is an article about adding Acetone to the fuel to increase MPG? >HERE<. :wink:


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Thanks John .. interesting reading for everyone looking to inprove economy


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

thats some i don't know along with being a mechanic, driver, map reader, electrician, plumber, cook and bottle washer you have to be a chemist too :lol: :lol: open uni. here I come


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

During the 2ww american corsairs flown of british carriers in the far east had water injection fitted, I believe other aircraft had this as well. 

Its been talked about in the press for years as to the possibility of doing this on cars, but conspiracy theory is that the oil companies have stopped this.

The Cummins PDF makes interesting reading, I remember reading years ago that wind resistance increases at the square of the velocity, so steady on the right foot.

Do you think if i fitted skirts (to the van not me) wind deflectors and go faster stripes it would make a differance? :lol: :lol: 

Olley


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## Magnor (May 1, 2005)

Jim
I read with interest your post on LPG / Diesel. I would not touch this type of conversion. The use of a LPG spray into the inlet air track is fraught with problems. The 'fumigation' of the inlet air will inevitably decrease the oxygen content of the combustion air. This is clearly not a good thing for both power and fuel economy (a turbo charger does exactly the opposite) The control of the amount of LPG injected cannot be accurately controlled to meet with engine operational conditions with this type of technology and has on occasions caused major engine fires and or serious damage to the engine. The favorite cause is LPG being introduced during engine overrun (going downhill etc). The cost of repair of any diesel engine is high!.
For a LPG / diesel system to work correctly you have to use an individual cylinder injection system. A number of system are around in the world. Some use two injectors per cylinder(one LPG , one Diesel) and one system uses a combined LPG/ Diesel injector. Both system are control by a separate ECU and are full calibrated for all engine operating conditions.

Hope this helps.

PS. Pure Biodiesel cannot be use on all diesel engines as some not only have problems with compound attack but have major cylinder and injector failures. See owners manual and warranty details of your vehicles. This applies to some current production engines (don't want to name manufactures)

Clive


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Perhaps you may think about this add-on instead? >> HERE <<. :wink:

*olley* Water injection systems were used back in the 60's and also used in drag racing to provide explosive power for short periods. :lol:

8) Of course. In my opinion the way to go is the Hydrogen cell. :wink:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Dylithum crystalsgot to be the ultimate JSW

Olley


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

:lol: Either that or Scotty to do the conversions. :lol:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

it would seem only Petrol to LPG is anywhere near cost effective, and even that is questionable, if you are competent at DIY it is possible to fit your own, which makes the economics much better, but how many people are capable of this? I would imagine most will have someone do it for them.

I estimate it will take me between 20,000 and 25,000 miles to break even, however if petrol keeps going up it might be very difficult to sell without.

most the ideas for Diesel and LPG are very new, and if I had a diesel I would wait to allow the systems to mature before converting, Making your own biodiesel seems very complicated and a little dangerous, would i be right in assuming that you should inform the revenue and pay tax on this?

LPG at the moment has a low tax applied but if the government finds their revenue stream is being eroded by a switch to LPG they will increase this to petrol levels

One of the posters has a signature "go traveling now my friends it later than you think" seems a damm good idea to me

Olley


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Magnor said:


> Jim
> I read with interest your post on LPG / Diesel. I would not touch this type of conversion. The use of a LPG spray into the inlet air track is fraught with problems.


Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

Clive

Your advice has made me think again.. I'll put this on the back burner for now

Cheers

Jim


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Hi *olley*. I agree with your estimate that it will takebetween 20,000 and 25,000 miles to break even. Having used one for 4 years and 23,000 miles. I would say I have just about paid for the original system. Which I have now sold.  I agree a LPG/Diesel conversion takes a lot of thinking about the long term benefits and costs. 
LPG at the moment has a low tax and was said to be fixed for 4 years. I don't think they intend to tax it as high as Petrol or Diesel because it also helps the environment so the use of LPG is being encouraged. :wink:


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

:lol: Another variation on the theme of Vegetable Oil for Diesel engines >> HERE <<


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Thanks John.. and a link from yours to a forum devoted to vegi oils 
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/cfrm/f/898605551


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

8O Very sorry Jim. I thought I had given you that one.


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