# UK Speed Limits



## Barts (Apr 16, 2007)

Thought That I would share my shock at finding out that the speed limit for my maximum plated weight of 3500 kg motorhome is 50 on single carriageway and 60 mph on dual carriageways. I have always been under the impression that the speed limits were that of a car, however this is only the case for a vehicle plated 3050. Beware!!
For information check out on www.gov.uk and search speed limits.


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## colpot (Jun 9, 2008)

Its based on unladen weight - over 3050 unladen (manufacturers quoted) are subject to the lower speed limit.


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## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

As Colpot says it is 3050 unladen weight where the limits change. Do not confuse unladen weight with MIRO (Mass in Running Order) weights that are quoted by the manufacturers. Unladen weight will be a good deal less than MIRO as it does not include things such as fuel, gas, driver allowance, water etc. I do not think that any 3500kg motorhome would be above 3050kg unladen and indeed many plated at 3850 or 4000 will still be under the limit.

JohnW


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## blackbirdbiker (Mar 12, 2007)

Barry, that old bus of yours can hardly reach 50 😉 no problem mate.

Them..


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## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

As Colpot says it is 3050 unladen weight where the limits change. Do not confuse unladen weight with MIRO (Mass in Running Order) weights that are quoted by the manufacturers. Unladen weight will be a good deal less than MIRO as it does not include things such as fuel, gas, driver allowance, water etc. I do not think that any 3500kg motorhome would be above 3050kg unladen and indeed many plated at 3850 or 4000 will still be under the limit.

JohnW


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> Barts said:
> 
> 
> > Thought That I would share my shock at finding out that the speed limit for my maximum plated weight of 3500 kg motorhome is 50 on single carriageway and 60 mph on dual carriageways. I have always been under the impression that the speed limits were that of a car, however this is only the case for a vehicle plated 3050. Beware!!
> ...


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

There was a post on here a couple of weeks ago from an unlucky MHF member who thought the same and was prosecuted for doing 68mph on a dual carriageway. I think that the police were somewhat hard and that advice would have been more appropriate because it is a matter that causes much confusion.


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## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

> There was a post on here a couple of weeks ago from an unlucky MHF member who thought the same and was prosecuted for doing 68mph on a dual carriageway.


If that is the same person that also posted on another website then he was not actually prosecuted. It would seem that his vehicle had been a white van in a former life and they are subject to a 60 limit on dual carriageways. His van was reclassified as a motor caravan and was under the 3050kg limit. When pointed out to the authorities his NIP was dropped.

JohnW


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## kabundi (Feb 14, 2011)

I went to the trouble of actually weighing my Rapido totally empty. Without fuel, gas, water, spare wheel, driver etc and only including the empty motorhome and any 'bolted down' accessories the unladen weight is 3250kg. There are a number of accessories, the sort of thing nearly everyone has - awning, cycle rack, solar panels, extra battery, air bag suspension upgrade etc that probably add up to 200kg. I am working on the basis that I am restricted to 50/60/70 mph as it is not practically possible to strip the motorhome to get it down to 3050kg.

The plated weight is 3850kg.


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

kabundi said:


> I went to the trouble of actually weighing my Rapido totally empty. Without fuel, gas, water, spare wheel, driver etc and only including the empty motorhome and any 'bolted down' accessories the unladen weight is 3250kg. There are a number of accessories, the sort of thing nearly everyone has - awning, cycle rack, solar panels, extra battery, air bag suspension upgrade etc that probably add up to 200kg. I am working on the basis that I am restricted to 50/60/70 mph as it is not practically possible to strip the motorhome to get it down to 3050kg.
> 
> The plated weight is 3850kg.


I can EASILY remove my bike rack and 2nd battery. The awning also has bolts, so I would argue that the Unladen Weight ie "as it rolls off the production line" *is* below 3050kg.

TBH, I would regard the spare wheel as a much more "included" item than the 2nd battery - Gordon


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Gordon

using that principle, could it be argued that the chassis delivered to the converters from Fiat / Merc / whoever is the base for the assessment of unladen weight? 

I agree with Ray, it's a total nonsense


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

H1-GBV said:


> I would argue that the Unladen Weight ie "as it rolls off the production line"


This is the UK legal definition of Unladen Weight for motor vehicles:
"Unladen weight
The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it's not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.
It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it's used on a road. It doesn't include the weight of the fuel or, if it's an electric vehicle, the batteries."

Is that as it rolled of the production line? It is a load of nonsense and it will take a Magistrate or possibly a Higher Court to decide.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

In my opinion, unless it is clear that the vehicle has an unladen weight of less than 3050kg then drivers should be cautious and if in doubt assume it is 50/60/70 limits which apply.
My Rapido has a MGW of 4250kg and is Ducato based. How can it possibly sensible for me to have a higher speed limit than lighter vans just because it is a Motor Caravan? It is pure and simple madness with no logical safety aspects at all.


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## uncleswede (Apr 16, 2010)

It's 70mph on motorways though for unladen weight > 3050Kg


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## PF13 (Aug 2, 2013)

This might help, I started this thread a while ago.

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-220833-.html


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

> ="rayc"
> 
> This is the UK legal definition of Unladen Weight for motor vehicles:
> "Unladen weight
> ...


When did "logic" ever apply to speed limits?

In this case a "motorcaravan" is a "car" NOT a commercial vehicle and therefore commercial vehicle speed limits do not apply to it.

What is the logic of a "car derived van" having a different speed limit to a van that is/was not based on a car floorpan?

On that basis a Ford Transit Connect has a lower speed limit than a Citroen Berlingo, VW Caddy or a Fiat Scudo solely because it doesn't share it's floor pan with a "car".
WHY?


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

To be prosecuted for any offence it has to be proved, beyond all reasonable doubt, that an offence has been committed.

It is up to the prosecuting authority to prove you HAVE committed an ofence, and produce enough evidence to support that (and where are they going to obtain the ULW of your vehicle from???) you dont have to prove youir innocence.

If you get a notification of prosecution for exceeding class speed limit then all you have to do is point out that its the UNLADEN weight that is relevant and that your vehicle is UNDER that limit. 

You DONT have to prove its under, Police have to prove that its OVER, and like I said where are the Police going to get the unladen weight from? 

Its simply too much agravation and the CPS will discontinue the action. :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Mrplodd said:


> To be prosecuted for any offence it has to be proved, beyond all reasonable doubt, that an offence has been committed.
> 
> It is up to the prosecuting authority to prove you HAVE committed an ofence, and produce enough evidence to support that (and where are they going to obtain the ULW of your vehicle from???) you dont have to prove youir innocence.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with Andy.

I think his post is the definitive answer on this subject which has been brought up more than once.

The rule is obscure as the 3050kg equates to 3ton Imperial so no reation to the 3500kg of some legislation (for which I cannot find the origin except the Vienna Convention on cross-border acceptence).

There also used to be a UK speed limit of 40 mph for ,commercial vehicles' of which one example was a minivan, because it had no rear side windows and was not subject to 'Purchase Tax'. I was 'done' for 52mph on an unrestricted road.

I wonder if the 3ton (3050kg) limit had some connection with tax?

Geoff


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Anything that is bolted down should be included in the unladen weight and not treated as not permanently affixed.

Our Mercedes goes 4000kg empty but with spare wheel, half a tank of fuel and tool kit.

We are taking the floor and support structure out to save 250kgs, but we'll never get it down to 3050kg. It is 5990kg gross.

Peter


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## emmbeedee (Oct 31, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> There also used to be a UK speed limit of 40 mph for ,commercial vehicles' of which one example was a minivan, because it had no rear side windows and was not subject to 'Purchase Tax'. I was 'done' for 52mph on an unrestricted road.
> 
> I wonder if the 3ton (3050kg) limit had some connection with tax?
> 
> Geoff


Geoff, that "Commercial Vehicle" speed limit was 30 MPH, not 40! I know, I had a minivan too (one of the very first) & was also "done" for breaking the 30 limit. As you say, all about our good old Purchase Tax. (That was before the EU made us adopt VAT, probably one of the stupidest taxes ever devised).
Just imagine, no "Commercial Vehicle", of any type, could exceed 30 MPH, except on a motorway & not many of those about back then either (1961). But fit side windows & you could go as fast as you liked or as fast as your vehicle was capable of. No blanket speed limit on cars back then.
Cars were subject to Purchase Tax whereas "Commercial Vehicles" were not, so many impecunious lads like me ended up with minivans or the A35 van or similar.
I suspect the blanket 30 MPH limit on vans led BMC to use up their stock of the too thin wheels that were originally fitted to Minis when they were introduced. These had to be withdrawn after a spectacular accident at Silverstone, where the wheels broke up on a racing Mini on the main straight. The RAC reacted quickly & banned Minis from racing. BMC fixed the problem by increasing the wheel thickness by 25%.
BMC then had a stock of about one million thin wheels, which some bright spark decided could be used up on the vans due to the 30 MPH blanket speed limit. They also limited performance on the vans by fitting an "FA" distributor, which I believe, with good reason, stood for Fixed Advance. (A coincidence?) The BMC cover story was that this allowed the vans to run on "commercial grade petrol", which in reality didn't exist. I soon discovered the main benefit of this distributor, which in my case increased fuel consumption by 6 MPG, so I swapped mine for a car distributor. Alas, I then suffered broken wheel syndrome & only after creating merry hell at Longbridge did I get my wheels changed. Others of my acquaintance were not so lucky & had crashes as a result of broken wheels.
Amazing what companies like BMC got away with in those days.
Apologies for thread drift, got a bit carried away there :lol: :lol:


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## robbosps (Mar 10, 2014)

Do any of you actually do more than 50 on a single carriageway road ? Or 60 on dual carridgeway? 

Seems like your getting your knickers in a twist for nothing. 

Police prosecute at limit, plus10% and 2 mph. That's true speed, not what your speedo tells you, unless it's calibrated or linked to an aftermarket limiter. 

So if your speedo reads 60 on a single carridgeway , your only just about 55mph ish. 

Check the sat nav reading against it.


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## HarleyDave (Jul 1, 2007)

robbosps said:


> ...
> 
> Police prosecute at limit, plus10% and 2 mph. ....


If thats the case why are people getting done for "34 in a 30"??

Cheers

Dave


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

My hymer Exsis has a mass in running weight of 2760kg. I've upgraded the van to a maximum permitted mass of 3750kg. Were do I stand as far as speed limits in the UK and when travelling abroad :lol: 

Wobby


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## Geriatricbackpacker (Aug 21, 2012)

robbosps said:


> Do any of you actually do more than 50 on a single carriageway road ? Or 60 on dual carridgeway?
> 
> Seems like your getting your knickers in a twist for nothing.
> 
> ...


robbosps, the 10% plus 2 is an ACPO recommendation and was used in conjunction with police officers who carried out physical roadside speed checks. It doesn't relate to camera vans and static sites and I have come across people who have been issued with tickets for speeds as low as 2 miles over the limit.

The ACPO recommendation did date back to when speed recording devices were more likely to be challenged in court with regards to their accuracy and the 10%+2 ruling acted as a fail-safe for the speed recorded (you only have to prove that the vehicle was traveling in excess of the speed limit) and for the inaccuracies of mass produced speedo's.

The modern laser type devices are so accurate that the defense solicitors will now question usage procedure and yearly calibration tests rather than the speed recorded.

Personally I found the ACPO recommendation a good rule of thumb and a good starting point for stopping and cautioning drivers that they were exceeding the limit. I was a strong believer that a conversation as to why we were there was more impactive than just sending a notification through the post.

Terry


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> Geriatricbackpacker said:
> 
> 
> > Personally I found the ACPO recommendation a good rule of thumb and a good starting point for stopping and cautioning drivers that they were exceeding the limit. I was a strong believer that a conversation as to why we were there was more impactive than just sending a notification through the post.
> ...


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## PF13 (Aug 2, 2013)

> robbosps said:
> 
> 
> > Do any of you actually do more than 50 on a single carriageway road ? Or 60 on dual carridgeway?
> ...


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## Geriatricbackpacker (Aug 21, 2012)

rayc said:


> > Geriatricbackpacker said:
> >
> >
> > > Personally I found the ACPO recommendation a good rule of thumb and a good starting point for stopping and cautioning drivers that they were exceeding the limit. I was a strong believer that a conversation as to why we were there was more impactive than just sending a notification through the post.
> ...


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## robbosps (Mar 10, 2014)

HarleyDave said:


> robbosps said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


I'd be challenging that. Or are they lying. People do lie.


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## Geriatricbackpacker (Aug 21, 2012)

robbosps said:


> HarleyDave said:
> 
> 
> > robbosps said:
> ...


I stopped a guy for speeding late one evening and he told me he had been issued with a FPN for speeding whilst driving in London a week or so earlier. I didn't believe him until he produced the FPN letter, it was for 33mph in a 30 limit. 
He threw his hands up to speeding on the occasion I stopped him as he had been rushing to get home before midnight and had been driving at a sustained speed in excess of the limit for some time. 
He was miffed (to say the least) at getting a ticket for what he considered a minor infringement and I have to say I would have been had it been me.
We cut a deal and he left with a verbal warning in lieu of the FPN he would have received. 
I guess I was getting soft in my old age.


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

> *robbosps *
> 
> I'd be challenging that. Or are they lying. People do lie.


4 years or so ago, my then 19 year old daughter got a Notice of Intended Prosecution for doing 33mph past a Gatso in a 30mph limit. I wish I could have challenged it or that she had been lying as it was me who had to pay for her Speed Awareness Course as she was a student with no money. :roll:


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## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

> My hymer Exsis has a mass in running weight of 2760kg. I've upgraded the van to a maximum permitted mass of 3750kg. Were do I stand as far as speed limits in the UK and when travelling abroad :lol: Wobby


No change in the UK as your unladen weight is still the same. Abroad though the speed limits are based on Gross Vehicle Weight with the cut-off at 3,500kg so you will normally be limited to a slower speed.

JohnW


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

In my experience HGVs routinely ignore the speed limit on single carriage trunk A roads such as the A470 and A49 and stick to 60 when they should be doing 50! If you are in a car doing less than 60 you have them looming over the back of you.
In the light of that and the immunity that they seem to enjoy, speed limit discussions about MHs seem quite academic  

Dick


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

> *Glandwr *In my experience HGVs routinely ignore the speed limit on single carriage trunk A roads such as the A470 and A49 and stick to 60 when they should be doing 50! If you are in a car doing less than 60 you have them looming over the back of you.
> In the light of that and the immunity that they seem to enjoy, speed limit discussions about MHs seem quite academic


A couple of points Dick. First I think in fact that the speed limit for >7.5tonne vehicles on single carriageway roads is 40mph - although it is due to be raised to 50mph next year. Secondly I think that HGV's are unlikely to be sticking to 60mph (except perhaps on downhills) as they have a speed limiter set at 56mph. I expect that because of speedometer built in inaccuracy, their 56mph often looks like 60mph on the speedo.


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## cavs (Mar 15, 2009)

If I remember correctly, the old 3 ton unladen weight limit (now 3050 kg) was the boundary between vehicle classes: under is a motor car, over is a heavy motor car. Different speed limits applied to each class and still do, although you almost never hear 'class of vehicle' mentioned these days. Note that class of vehicle and taxation class (for road tax or vehicle excise duty) are entirely different.

Edit: Road Traffic Act 1960 (nearly as old as I am) http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/8-9/16/section/253#commentary-c624245


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

cavs said:


> If I remember correctly, the old 3 ton unladen weight limit (now 3050 kg) was the boundary between vehicle classes: under is a motor car, over is a heavy motor car. Different speed limits applied to each class and still do, although you almost never hear 'class of vehicle' mentioned these days. Note that class of vehicle and taxation class (for road tax or vehicle excise duty) are entirely different.
> 
> Edit: Road Traffic Act 1960 (nearly as old as I am) http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/8-9/16/section/253#commentary-c624245


Cavs

In the Act quoted in your Edit the definition of 'Heavy Motor Car' is one of which the unladen weight is 2540 kg.

Geoff


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## cavs (Mar 15, 2009)

Partly true, Geoff. The definition also says "not being a motor car". So, if it's a motor car it can go up to 3050 kg, if it's not, and it weighs more than 2540 kg it's a heavy motor car. 

I learnt all this stuff once - it's amazing (or sad) what sticks in your mind.  

As someone said earlier, it's time the whole lot was rationalised to reflect modern circumstances.

Stephen


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