# Overweight?



## chasper (Apr 20, 2008)

Just received my latest Autosleeper Newsletter which mentions that the VOSA will be targeting caravan/motorhomes in 2009 with respect to weights. Apparently it has 12 automatic cameras on motorways linked to sensors in the road they are directly linked to the DVLA to compare the vehicles actual gross weight with the permitted weight, vehicles then could be pulled over be VOSA to reduce the weight or in extreme cases to impound the vehicle. VOSA are also planning more automatic cameras as well as increasing the number of mobile units on the road. At the moment it is for purely advisory and not a revenue raising opportunity. It also say's that VOSA believes that any motorhome carrying a scooter or motorcycle on the rear will need to have a twin axle on the rear. Interesting. Happy New Year. Chasper.


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## tonka (Apr 24, 2006)

Nothing surprising... I think lots of vans run overweight, especially with scooters on the back... Some intentionally and some out of ignorance..
We have a 3800kg apache... Was parked at a rally near a similar van that had scooter on back plus lots of add on's.. 
The guy was almost bragging about running at 4.5 tonnes !!!!!!!! 
Lots of threads on here about weights etc...


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

"any motorhome carrying a scooter or motorcycle on the rear will need to have a twin axle on the rear" I tend to agree from my own experience with coachbuilts. Been there, hung the bikes on the back trouble free for 7 years until I visited a weighbridge. Ouch! Now tow bikes on an aluminium trailer!

Van conversions with little overhang probably get away with a scooter OK.

C.


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

chasper said:


> Just received my latest Autosleeper Newsletter which mentions that the VOSA will be targeting caravan/motorhomes in 2009 with respect to weights. Apparently it has 12 automatic cameras on motorways linked to sensors in the road they are directly linked to the DVLA to compare the vehicles actual gross weight with the permitted weight, vehicles then could be pulled over be VOSA to reduce the weight or in extreme cases to impound the vehicle. VOSA are also planning more automatic cameras as well as increasing the number of mobile units on the road. At the moment it is for purely advisory and not a revenue raising opportunity. It also say's that VOSA believes that any motorhome carrying a scooter or motorcycle on the rear will need to have a twin axle on the rear. Interesting. Happy New Year. Chasper.


Chasper

They're a bit behind the times - this extract is taken from our website, note the date:

_26-09-06 VOSAs Viper Victorious
VIPER*, VOSA's new system that incorporates ANPR and WIMS technology, has won the ITS United Kingdom (the Intelligent Transport Society for the UK) Technology Award for Excellence. The award will be officially made to VOSA and its partners, Civica and Applied Traffic, by former Transport Minister Steven Norris, at the prestigious ITS World Congress held in London's Excel Conference Centre on 12 October.

Automatic Number Plate Recognition and Weigh In Motion Sensors play an important part in VOSA's move towards targeted enforcement. By integrating these technologies, offending vehicles can be specifically and accurately identified for possible action from a remote location, dramatically cutting the need to inconvenience law-abiding drivers.

This new technology has already surpassed expectations, with a recent pilot recording an impressive 700% increase in identifying and prohibiting overweight vehicles. As a result, up to 14 VIPER sites are currently being identified and installed across the UK motorway network; more will follow.

Stephen Tetlow, VOSA's Chief Executive, said: "Using this technology gives us the ability to target unsafe vehicles accurately and consistently, which not only improves road safety but also reduces the burden on law-abiding operators. Winning this award reflects the hard work of the VOSA team and our partners in introducing the new system."

* Vehicle Identification & Pre-selection Enforcement Resource_

Motorhomes and caravans are targetted on a regular basis throughout the summer "touring" months, but with the increasing winter use, it won't be unusual for them to be pulled in during the current period. :twisted:

Normally, these checks are of the "safety" variety, but as overloading affects braking, they will be prohibited if they are overweight, and it's not just a case of losing a few kilos to get back down to the permitted weight, you could be fined a fair old sum for your transgressions (if I remember correctly, up to £5000, depending on the severity of the overload). :roll:

As others have said in other threads on this subject, and I recommend wholeheartedly, take it to a weighbridge and get it checked, prior to loading so you know what the payload is, and after loading to check it's not overweight. 8)

Please remember folks, if you're stopped on the continent and found to be overweight, it's an on the spot fine as well as reducing to the permitted weight. 8O

No excuses are accepted either in the UK or Europe - overloading is an "absolute" offence - i.e. there is no excuse for it, you're guilty. 

Keith (Sprokit)


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Thanks, Keith. I'd be grateful if you would also comment of the veracity of the Autosleeper newsletter VOSA quote:

"VOSA believes that any motorhome carrying a scooter or motorcycle on the rear will need to have a twin axle on the rear."

Dave


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

*Re: Overweight*



DABurleigh said:


> Thanks, Keith. I'd be grateful if you would also comment of the veracity of the Autosleeper newsletter VOSA quote:
> 
> "VOSA believes that any motorhome carrying a scooter or motorcycle on the rear will need to have a twin axle on the rear."
> 
> Dave


Hi Dave

Not being a "mandarin" just a common or garden foot soldier, I'd hate to say that VOSA have categorically stated two rear axles if you're carrying a scooter /motorcycle.  But, to date there have been no specific instructions re targetting vehicles carrying said items. :wink:

However, we all know (or should know :roll: ) that additional weight on the rear of a vehicle affects not only the weight applied to the rear axle(s) but also that of the front axle (the rear gets heavier - the front gets lighter - see-saw effect). So, it makes a lot of sense to use a twin rear axle vehicle if you're going to carry a scooter / motorcycle. 

But, it can be done with a single rear axle if the permitted axle weights are such that it allows a healthy payload on the rear axle. (A good example is the Laika owned by my buddy - GVW 4.6 tonnes, rear axle in the region of 2.8 tonnes.) 8)

I have a spreadsheet for working out (it's easier than trying to remember the formula) the weights with a particular load on the overhang. If I remember correctly, I've put it on the forum before, but just in case, I'll attach it again. I'm sure most of our members know how to use a tape measure and have the ability to "split-weigh" their vehicle - if not, do a search under "split weighing", that's hiding somewhere on the forum as well. Ah, found it at http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-402816-split.html+weighing#402816

Hopefully that should prevent anyone overloading the rear axle. 8O

Keith (Sprokit)


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Weights*

Hello

Weight watching is something I do closely in respect of the van. Currently we stand at 4800 kg, fully loaded, full fresh water, gas full and full fuel tank. This is also with me and the dog on board.

There is a 110 kg scooter to go in the back though.

Russell

I will however re-weigh the van with the scooter on board.


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

*Re: Weights*



Rapide561 said:


> Hello
> 
> Weight watching is something I do closely in respect of the van. Currently we stand at 4800 kg, fully loaded, full fresh water, gas full and full fuel tank. This is also with me and the dog on board.
> 
> ...


Russell, that's a bit light for a Type 42 - 4,100 tons according to "Janes" :twisted:

Joking aside, I take it you know what the GVW is, I would imagine a six legger like yours has a fairly healthy payload, but make sure before you go throwing extra bits at it. :wink:

Keith (Sprokit)


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Payload*

Yes, quite a decent payload. After water, gas and diesel, or and the driver, I have about 750 kg to pile in.

Trying to weigh the rear axles individually is tricky though.

Russell


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## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

Just as an addendum. Using the calculator I added 50 Kg's of load to the cycle rack in my garage. The overhang to the centre of the rack is 1.6 M
The additional load on the rear axle is 71 Kg's & it takes 20 Kg's from the front. 

Dave.


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

*Re: Payload*



Rapide561 said:


> Yes, quite a decent payload. After water, gas and diesel, or and the driver, I have about 750 kg to pile in.
> 
> Trying to weigh the rear axles individually is tricky though.
> 
> Russell


Don't bother trying - weigh them together, they should be "compensating" and as such the weights are added together to give one larger weight.

The only problem would be in using the calculator - in this case measure from a point midway between the two axles to the centre of the rack or whatever.

Keith (Sprokit)


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## motaman (Mar 25, 2007)

*overweight*

right,my plate shows 3900
5500
1850
2200
at the weighbridge i record front1490 rear 1710 .so one of englands finest tell me i can carry an additional 490kg. as i see it if my scooter and rack add up to less than this i am ok ,or does the 2.mtr from the centre of rear axle to centre of load alter things if so how much the scooter goes 110 kg and the rack the same 
gary


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

For the first time, I took the MH to the weighbridge with me and the Mrs in.
No water but most other things in the van

weighed in at 3000KG evenly between axles.

Need to add 130Ltrs of water which I think is 130KG


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

*Re: overweight*



motaman said:


> right,my plate shows 3900
> 5500
> 1850
> 2200
> ...


Hi Gary

So that's a permitted max GVW of 3,900 kg, a Train weight of 5,500 kg, 1st axle max of 1,850 kg and 2nd axle max of 2,200kg.

Given the figures you've provided, yes, you've got 490 kg to play with on the rear axle. 8)

If you use the calculator it's very easy to work it out the new weights after you've put the motorcycle on the rack - I can't do it for you because I don't know the wheelbase of your Hymer :roll:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're talking about hanging 220 kilograms off the back end? And yes, the overhang does come into it. 8O

Using the wheelbase figure for my own vehicle and your figures for the rest - your new rear axle weight should be in the region of 2,050 kg and your new front axle weight in the region of 1,370 kilos, well within your limits provided you don't throw loads of cases of wine/beer etc into the rear end. 

Hopefully, this answers your question. 8)

Keith (Sprokit)


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## motaman (Mar 25, 2007)

*overweight*

hi sprokit thanks for your reply ,i think my wheelbase of 3.2mtr will be less than yours tho'
gary


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## Chausson (Oct 17, 2006)

Hi

It's all well and good Vosa saying that they will prosecute offenders but in this neck of the wood they have closed all the public weighbridges.
The next best is a quarry weighbridge which you have to go the wrong way up a one way road because the lorries will not allow you to use the correct way for whatever reason, you then also run the risk of doing your tyres or other damage. I don't know how you other guys manage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
I spoke to vosa test station who has a weighbridge to see if I could weigh there, NO was a stern reply.

Ron


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## 2escapees (Nov 28, 2008)

The French Gendarmes regularly have MH weight check days all over the country. They have digital weighing equipment and on the spot fines.


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## WSandME (May 16, 2007)

Not long after we acquired our first (and current) Motorhome, I took it to a local weighbridge.

I weighed the whole machine, then front axle only, followed by rear axle.

This gave me much confidence in its carrying capabilities, as the results showed that even with 80% water and fuel, one empty 13Kg gas bottle, scooter rack and cycle rack, and both me and SWMBO on board, I still had 420Kg available on the front axle, and 340Kg on the rear. 760Kg payload isn't too shabby!

I then purchased a Ludix Blaster scooter (69Kg, plus say 6Kg fuel & ancillaries)

We have travelled through Yourup extensively and suffered quite badly from the rear chassis grounding - to the extent that the deformation (crossmember pulled backwards) pulled together the two chassis extension legs which support the rear bodywork. This caused the catches on the lockers to fail, the door on the o/s to fall open and catch on the road.

(Judicious use of Hydraulic Jacks and a "Birmingham Micro-Adjuster" has restored the extension's configuration)

Tonight, I downloaded the calculator (I've been too lazy to look up the required measurements up to now), plugged in my data and it tells me that with the scooter loaded, I STILL have 220Kgs available on the rear axle!

The attached photo doesn't really show how low down at the back (and high at the front) it is: I've often been quite embarrassed by its appearance even though I'm 99.9% certain I'm legal.

The rear leaf springs on the Hymer have always been flat, so all of this leads me to conclude that I *really* need AirRides - I'm also beginning to wonder whether the vehicle's attitude is as important as it's loading. I suspect that the back-end down stance might be adversely affecting the handling? In any case, there isn't enough room in front of the rear axle to stow the customary dozen cases of Wine :wink:

.


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

*Re: overweight*



motaman said:


> hi sprokit thanks for your reply ,i think my wheelbase of 3.2mtr will be less than yours tho'
> gary


Not a lot of difference Gary - with that wheelbase I calculate your new weights at:
Front - 1,350 kg
Rear - 2,070 kg
or thereabouts (I've rounded up to the nearest 10 kg) 

Still within your permitted weights 8)

Keith (Sprokit)


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

And please tell VOSA that is with a single rear axle and a significant overhang ;-)

Dave


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

WSandME said:


> ......... took it to a local weighbridge.
> 
> .......on board, I still had 420Kg available on the front axle, and 340Kg on the rear. 760Kg payload isn't too shabby!
> 
> ...


Mmmm - but don't forget that if you load up to the maximum permitted for each axle, you're going to be overweight on the Gross Vehicle Weight :twisted:

The problem of Hymer rear leaf springs is well known to me, mine had the same appearance - FLAT  - plus I was overweight with next to nothing on board - now that could have been very embarrassing if I'd been checked by my colleagues. 

Firstly I had the GVW and Axle weights upgraded and I fitted Airides to the rear - now I haven't got the dreaded tail droop and the weights are fine. Expensive, but fine 

You'll just have to stow the wine at the front - put it under the table - it's something to rest your feet on when you're eating - or is there so much that it wouldn't fit there anyway 8O

Pleased the calculator was of some use. 

Keith (Sprokit)


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## DiscoDave (Aug 25, 2008)

I took mine to a weigh bridge and it came out at 2.9t all thanks full all gas full, cupboards stocked etc etc just missing the wife.

my problem is that i don't know what the max weight is, i know it's built on a chassis that has a 1200kg payload , but once it has a caravan bolted to it does this change or is it the same. 

helpfully the instruction book for the van has a bit where i'm assuming the dealer or manufacturer could fill in the vehicle weight and the max weight but they have neglected to fill it in! :roll:


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## 101405 (Oct 15, 2006)

Your vehicle weights are on a plate on the entry step , axle 1 axle 2 max and trainweight (trailer) Ist you need to know its tare weight, thats you the driver and full tank of fuel. take it to a weighbridge .


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

DiscoDave said:


> I took mine to a weigh bridge and it came out at 2.9t all thanks full all gas full, cupboards stocked etc etc just missing the wife.
> 
> my problem is that i don't know what the max weight is, i know it's built on a chassis that has a 1200kg payload , but once it has a caravan bolted to it does this change or is it the same.
> 
> helpfully the instruction book for the van has a bit where i'm assuming the dealer or manufacturer could fill in the vehicle weight and the max weight but they have neglected to fill it in! :roll:


'Morning,

Hope you had a great New Years Eve and will have a super New Year 

I see you have a VW base vehicle - if memory serves, the VIN plate is under the bonnet on the slam panel (that's the bit the bonnet lands on and has the safety catch etc.). There should be 4 weights shown under the VIN (or chassis no. in old money) - they're laid out something like this:

WDBxxxxxxxxxxxxxx _VIN (chassis no.)_
3500 _ Gross Vehicle Weight (max permitted weight)_
5300 _ Train Weight (max permitted vehicle + trailer weight_
1600 _ 1st axle max permitted weight_
2200 _ 2nd axle max permitted weight)_

As has been said by OP, the converters plate may be on the habitation door, if it's not there, you will have to go by the VIN plate - in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, it's the only weights we're allowed to accept under C & U Regs. for enforcement purposes.

HTH

Keith (Sprokit)


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## CurlyBoy (Jan 13, 2008)

*Payload*

Hi Ron(chausson), the Vosa weighbridge at Samford Peverell(M5) have done the weighing test for me on a couple of occasions, although they do point out they are not obliged to, but speak to them nice and they are usually helpful
curlyboy


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## averhamdave (May 21, 2005)

About 3 years ago I fitted a PMS towbar (I think thats what they are called - the ones from Poole). It was fitted to my M/Home of the time a 1999 Cheyenne built on a Ducato 14 chassis. Purpose was to carry our 2 electric bikes with us down to Spain.

Fitted this monstrous towbar, rack and bikes (without batteries), filled with water etc and off to local weighbridge. The overhange was enormous.

Chassis was rated, I think at 3200kg but back axle about 2000kg. Anyway it was over on weight by a lot. Took bikes off and bike rack and it was just within as we set off to Spain. Also on the 14" wheels the Ducato14 tyres were only rated at 1000kg each so air-rides would not solve the problem.

Moral - don't buy a heavy towbar and do your homework first. You are unlikely to carry a scooter on anything with a Ducato14 chassis! Oh and if you are overloaded you deserve to "get done"- you are a danger to yourselves and others on the road.


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

It's not just your addition scooter/bikes. Don't forget anyone adding solar panels, gennys, sat. dishes, aircon units and all the other "non-issue" twiddleybits will reduce you payload by quite a considerable sum.

Even manufacturer added goods SE/Vogue packs, larger water tanks, rear steadies and engine/gearbox upgrades take their toll on the advertised weights in brochures etc.

You can easily get carried away with goodies and forget you've got to get in it too!


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

Just for info, I have taken this from the Autotrail technical brochure.

Upgrade engine from 100bhp to 130bhp +15kg
Upgrade from 130bhp to 157bhp +20kgs
Upgrade engine from 100bhp to 157bhp +50kgs
Merc. 315/318 +40kgs
Comfortmatic gearbox +15kgs
SE pack depending on length of awning +24-39kgs
Corner steadies +10kgs
Loose carpets & lino instead of fixed +15kgs
Roof rack +20kgs
2 cycle rack +10kgs
Circular table +5kgs
Changing the lounge layout, (forward seats & belts) +upto 50kgs
Roof mounted Dometic aircon +35kgs
2nd 110 amp leisure battery +15kgs
Larger water tank (36l) +40kgs 

An Oyster sat dish weighs in at just over 25 kgs 

My Cheyenne 660 weighs in at 3245kgs and has a max authorised weight of 4000kgs but if you start to add a few of the above, (considering you can't buy it without the SE pack anyway!) the payload is cut quite dramatically before we even add gas cyl/tank, water, food, clothing, passengers, dogs, bikes scooters and us!

To add payload can I suggest anyone getting in the van goes on diets before setting off on a trip!


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

Expert advice needed.

My logbook has GW 3500KG
My Vehicle Plate says 1665KG front and 2250KG Rear

The vehicle is a 2.0Tdi 225 FWD Transit

What weight can I carry 3500KG or 3915KG ?


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Jezport said:


> Expert advice needed.
> 
> My logbook has GW 3500KG
> My Vehicle Plate says 1665KG front and 2250KG Rear
> ...


If logbook says 3500kg, that's a good starting point. What other weights are on the VIN plate? There should be one at 3500kg and a much higher one that indicates gross combination weight (for towing a trailer).

The axle weights, when added together are normally greater than the gvw to allow a 'loading tolerance' - It would be difficult, if not impossible to load a vehicle to its GVW if the sum of the permitted axle weights equalled the GVW.

Keith (Sprokit) will be along shortly to give you chapter and verse.

David


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

b16duv said:


> Jezport said:
> 
> 
> > Expert advice needed.
> ...


Got my weights from the black ford sticker inside the drivers door.


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

Found another VIN lable in engine bay From trigano
And another Ford one at the passenger door, both read

3500KG
4500KG
1665KG
2250KG

They dont say what the 4500 and 3500 mean


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

Jezport said:


> Expert advice needed.
> 
> My logbook has GW 3500KG
> My Vehicle Plate says 1665KG front and 2250KG Rear
> ...


Thanks David - chapter and verse have already been written elsewhere :lol:

Suffice to say that the max. permitted axle weights always (or nearly always) add up to more than the permitted Gross Weight 8O - as David said, this is to allow for weight distribution changes - imagine WVM taking his load off from the rear as he does his rounds without re-distributing his load as he removes stuff off the rear 8O - it's like a see-saw, what comes off one end, increases the weight on the other end, :roll: the rear gets lighter, the front gets heavier.

So, what can you carry - no more than the max. Gross Vehicle Weight - 3500 kg. The 4500 figure is the max. permitted Train Weight (the maximum loaded weight of the vehicle and any trailer attached to it).

Keith (Sprokit)


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Jezport said:


> Found another VIN lable in engine bay From trigano
> And another Ford one at the passenger door, both read
> 
> 3500KG
> ...


Jezport,

3500Kg is the gross vehicle weight - that's the van, all your 'stuff' and passengers etc

4500kg is the Gross combination weight (GCW) and that is the max weight of van and any trailer - so a 1 tonne trailer with van laden to GVW

1665kg is max front axle weight
2250kg is max rear axle weight

You have a good loading tolerance of ((2250+1665)-3500) 415kg, so you can be fairly cavalier about distributing loads about the van. (subject to axle weights when van is empty)

Hope this helps

David


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

b16duv said:


> Jezport said:
> 
> 
> > Found another VIN lable in engine bay From trigano
> ...


Still not 100% 
If I load the van upto 2250 on rear axle and 1665 on the front I weigh 3915kg whichis over 3500.


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## sprokit (May 1, 2005)

Jezport said:


> b16duv said:
> 
> 
> > Jezport said:
> ...


Jezport - the maximum you can load your vehicle to is 3500 kg - if you load to axle weights you'll be overweight  - don't do it - it will cost you time and money if you're checked. 

Keith (Sprokit)


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Jezport said:


> b16duv said:
> 
> 
> > Jezport said:
> ...


You can't (legally) do that though! The difference between the sum of the axle weights (3915kg) and the GVW (3500kg) is a tolerance.

Imagine that the motorhome is fully loaded to 3500kg, and your front seat passenger decides to sit in the back instead of the front. The weight of the passenger would transfer from the front axle to the rear axle (in part, but not totally unless they sat behind the rear axle - in a rear lounge for example).

If the sum of the axle weights equalled the GVW, then assuming that both axles were bang on their maximum with the passenger in the front seat, their moving to the rear would overload the rear axle. this would then be an offence.

In order to prevent this happening, the sum of the axle weights is usually greater than the GVW.

You need to know the weight of the van when empty, and each axle weight when empty, then weigh everything that you take with you.

Your payload is the GVW (3500kg) minus the empty weight of the van. You should weigh it with a full tank of fuel, 1 gas bottle and some water in the tank.

Don't get too concerned about axle weights at this stage, as you have a tolerance that will probably equal your payload, so the van won't be too sensitive to where you load things. It's easy to move a few items once the van is loaded if the axle weights are exceeded, but this shouldn't be a problem unless you load everything behind the rear axle.

David


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

So as long as I stay below 3500 as long as I keep below the axle weights I am ok.

I could put 2000Kg load at the back and 1500Kg at the front for example.

The penny has dropped :roll: 

Cheers


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Jezport said:


> So as long as I stay below 3500 as long as I keep below the axle weights I am ok.
> 
> I could put 2000Kg load at the back and 1500Kg at the front for example.
> 
> ...


Well, almost, but the weight of the van is included in the weights you have just quoted. If your axle weights were 1500 kg front and 2000kg rear when loaded, you would be fine. Your van cannot carry 3500kg, that is the weight of the van and its load.

David


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

b16duv said:


> Jezport said:
> 
> 
> > So as long as I stay below 3500 as long as I keep below the axle weights I am ok.
> ...


Thats what I meant, Cheers


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