# Help Needed - What Motorhome Shall We Buy!



## ozdave (Jan 14, 2013)

Hello everybody!

For months I've been waiting for the annual Caravan & RV Supershow to come to Sydney so I can really nail down what we want in our new motorhome for fulltime travel next year.

Well it arrived this weekend and was a massive letdown. In the whole show (the biggest on in Australia), there was just a single A-Class to have a look at. No European brands whatsoever and very few suitable for long term family travel.

So, because I want to get set for when we arrive, I'm now resigned to buying sight-unseen based solely on info I can gain on the internet and, I suspect, mainly from this forum! So please help me choose based on your experience. Here's what we are looking at:

1) A van suitable for 12 months fulltime travel across Europe for a family w 2 kids age 5 and 7
2) Looking to spend around EU100K-130K and will probably buy NEW in Germany or France and then sell in France. Value retention for resale is paramount.
3) Decided on a length of around 8.5m. We'll be getting our HD driver's licence so weight not an issue per se. 
4) Looking at fixed beds at the rear for the kids (or bunks) will a pull down bed at the front for us
5) Thinking of awning, decent size garage and hopefully a 4-bike bike rack as minimum accessories. Winterised as well.
6) Brands I have looked at and am interested in are Hymer, Burstner, Frankia, Dethleffs, Pilote. In general terms I'm looking for a manufacturer that has a solid, reliable reputation rather than one for luxury or style. A Toyota rather than a Mercedes sort of thing

I'd love any feedback on the above. Are these all decent brands that I've mentioned? I know I'm asking for entirely subjective opinions but so be it - wil no opportunity to view them close up, it's the best I can do.

Any other 'must-haves' that I should be considering? Not necessarily general accessories but things that must be ordered from the factory so to speak.

Thanks as alway

Dave


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## uphighlandway (Dec 16, 2010)

*what motorhome*

Hi,
I will leave the exact motorhome recommendation to others, but a couple of things you might like to (re-)consider are:
With 2 kids you might want to consider a U shaped lounge at the rear (not common in European built mh's but more are appearing from European builders) where you can sit/lie down and have plenty to look at rather than all up front sitting in seats where you travel. Also, you MUST take into account the payload of the motorhome. Lots of mh's have large garage space but useless amount of payload. Also, make sure when you check the payload of the vehicle to ask what makes up the normal running weight and you will probably find this includes only the driver's weight (75kgs) only one gas bottle, only part filled water tank, etc... You need to ask whether the vehicle has a spare tyre in case of punctures, etc.. THE MOST IMPORTANT: make sure whatever motorhome you decide to buy, you must get a thorough handover and ask about everything, making sure everything works before you accept the vehicle as many people take on the vehicle without everything checked and then it has to spend weeks in the garage for repairs and your year in Europe is spoilt and a lot more expensive having to find alternative accommodation. DO check both the habitation side of the vehicle and the motor (engine, etc..) side.
Best of luck and enjoy.


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## ozdave (Jan 14, 2013)

Thank you!

With a U-Shape lounge ast the rear (which does sound appealing), where are the sleeping areas. We don't want to be making up beds every day if we can help it so had envisaged 2 fixed beds for the kids then a made up bed that can just be folded down for us. Can't see how that would work with one end out of action?

Thanks for the notes re payload. I think that probably need another thread on it's own...

Thanks again.


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## alhod (Nov 1, 2010)

With the criteria you have and based on your budget I suspect that Frankia may offer the most likely solution but any of those you mention might be contenders. On here, Erneboy is full timing in a Frankia and may be able to offer brand specific advice and experience.
For sure you are already aware of the possible obstacles in finding insurance cover which seem to be a problem for some seeking to do what you're planning. 
Buying in one country and selling in another raises issues of vehicle registration as well so perhaps something else to look into. 

In terms of accommodation, facilities, winterisation etc you should not have any problems as all at the premium end of the market should offer you viable options. Largely a matter of personal preference. 

Good luck! 
Alan


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Buy new and selling after a year, you are in for such a shock a little down the line.

Please, get a used one, it will have have all the toys added and you will be much happier when the time to sell arrives.

Paul.


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## tonka (Apr 24, 2006)

This is a subject we can post pages on but here's a quick one.

Buying new... Yes get ready to loose maybe 30% plus.. VAT (tax) in most European countries now is 20% so you loose that the minute you register it. Plus depreciation and your going to be in hard positition as you need a fast sale for when you leave. 

First check the situation about buying in 1 country and selling in another. Yes. this is "Europe" but the rules per country as all very much different.

My inital thought is buy UK, You speak the language( sort of lol) European vans inc left handers can be bought here. On the forums the members know the "ground" so better chance of sensible advise and help.


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## selstrom (May 23, 2005)

If you buy new the depreciation after 1 year will be very high.

With your budget you could buy 4 to 6 year old Concorde or Cathargo on a 7.5 tonne chassis, which would give you a good payload, full winterisation and very good quality. As these are built on a proper chassis, with none of the original cab the steering wheel is closer to the front of the vehicle thus gaining 600 mm of additional usable space compared to Hymer etc.

U shaped end lounges will not give you the fixed beds you want and waste space by not using 2 of the most comfortable seats.

There are many good dealers in Germany, large MH are scarse in France.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

tonka said:


> My inital thought is buy UK, You speak the language( sort of lol) European vans inc left handers can be bought here. On the forums the members know the "ground" so better chance of sensible advise and help.


The problem with buying and registering in the UK is

1) ANY non-EU licence is only good for 3500kg MAX. Regardless of what your domestic licence allows - I don't know why but that is clearly set out on the Directgov website.

These 2 sites explain - BUT - give conflicting advice.
a) http://uk.angloinfo.com/transport/driving-licences/driving-with-foreign-licence/
b) https://www.gov.uk/non-gb-driving-licence

a) Suggests AU/NZ licences are fully valid in the UK but then refers you to b) which, if you use the interactice tool, clearly states that AU/NZ licences are not valid for vehicles over 3500kg being driven FROM the UK, but OK if they are driven INTO the UK. :? :? :? :?

2) Insurance is almost impossible to arrange and if it is, just one or two companies (HIC & Down Under) will supply it.

So should you decide to buy in and start from the UK check you will be legal.


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## alhod (Nov 1, 2010)

As the advice (all very relevant and valid, of course) comes flooding in you perhaps start to see the complexity of what you are thinking of doing!
One thing to keep in mind is that the bigger the vehicle you get the more limited are your options for parking especially in some countries and particularly near cities.
It is quite common to tow a small car (on trailer or A-Frame tow bar - and there's a whole new topic for discussion!) and that makes the difficult spots more easily accessible. 
It all depends on where you want to go and how long you will be staying in each place.

You have not said how familiar you are already with Europe and what you know about travelling around here. Seasoned visitor or first time this far west (or east, if you fly via the US!)

Lots of help / advice here and all well intentioned but it will take some sorting to get to out what is really relevant for you!

Alan


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## bigtree (Feb 3, 2007)

For that kind of money you will get a lot of vehicle second hand on here,
http://www.mobile.de/

Personally I would buy second hand, 1-2 years old,it will have all the problems sorted and have plenty of extras added.Another van to consider is a Euramobil.


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## ozdave (Jan 14, 2013)

Thank you so much everybody. I'll reply to some of the specific points below...

Buying in UK - yes problem will be licensing so that's out. As mentioned we seem to have found Germany has the most options but we will only have an address in France that's why that's an option

New vs Used- yeah sure if we can get the perfect match a year or two old and save 30% then great. We will jump at it. However I do want/need buy from a dealer and recognize that getting our perfect rig might be hard in used. Worst comes to worst, we buy new at 120k say then sell at 90k then it's cost us 30k for accommodation. That would get you a 2-bed apartment fir a year in Sydney so I can live with that!

Regarding other stuff... Think we are set on the size (thanks to reading this forum largely) even if it might restrict us a little.

We can speak fluent(ish) French and my wife speaks German. We have travelled to a few countries but plan to really 'do' Europe this time... Mainly keeping south in winter and north in summer.

Thanks again... Anyone got anymore advice/opinions on manufacturers?


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## peter_h (Oct 27, 2009)

Depending on where you plan staying you may want to consider, within your base specification toilet, water system & electrical capacities. 

In our case (with two daughters) when care fee "rough" camping we use 50litre per day fresh water and create 15litre per day Black waste, we sized our van for 4 days comfortable self sufficiency between empty / filling sites.

Like wise in care free mode we use 75 12v AH (900 watt hours) per day in Winter and 40 AH (480 watt hours) per day in Summer, for us a silent Efoy Fuel Cell with twin 120 AH batteries works for us perfectly, with one fuel "cartridge" in heavy winter use lasting over 5 days. 

Peter


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## DaveTheFramer (Apr 11, 2013)

Can't help you on makes as we bought a budget secondhand van, but with two young kids, I can't recommend bunks enough. Ours used them as bedrooms, keeping all their junk in one place and as you have said, no need to keep making beds up. Now they are teenagers, I think bunks are less good, as they both want a bit more privacy for themselves. Wherever possible our two now take small tents outside and sleep outside which suits us all.

As others have said your depreciation is going to be huge especially with the treatment youngsters will inevitably give the van.

We paid £22500 for ours 3 years ago, I guess we could sell it now for around £15 - £17K, so depreciation of a couple of grand a year. Bear in mind this was only 2 years old when we bought it, somebody else took a huge hit. 

The other biggy with kids is payload, ours has 1000kg which is fantastic.

My other big tip is disposable bbqs, we use them for breakfast as well as in the evenings when the weather is good. No pots, pans or cooker to clean and it is relatively healthy. If you train your slaves correctly, they will light them while your still in bed and they'll be just ready to cook with once you're up.

Dave


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## selstrom (May 23, 2005)

At 8.5m most sites aires etc are accessible to you, any longer and you will be limited in your choice. Also more difficult to do 3 point turn when you encounter that unforeseen low bridge or 2m wide road.

Beware of Tag axles as these count as 3 axles and will substantially increase toll costs in most European countries. A twin wheel rear axle is a better choice as is rear wheel drive.


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

There are many good well built Motorhomes, many of which come from the Hymer stable (Burstner, Hymer, Dethleffs and others) while some British and French are built down to a price, with Auto-Sleeper, Rapido and Autotrail being some of the exceptions. The Italians and Spanish also build motorhomes but again seem to be price conscious although I am aware of some better builds from those countries.
There will bound to be people who totally disagree with these personal observations and opinions built up over recent years... everyone has the right to be proud of their vans and most will have had trouble free pleasure..... but you asked a question and I gave my opinion.
The bottom line should be that the van you choose has the least compromises from your wish list.

Alan


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## Enock (Nov 11, 2011)

ozdave said:


> Worst comes to worst, we buy new at 120k say then sell at 90k then it's cost us 30k for accommodation.


My view is that, that is extremely optimistic..... The Vat alone 20k.

Buy at 120, sell at 70 will be closer to the mark....IMO


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Enock said:


> ozdave said:
> 
> 
> > Worst comes to worst, we buy new at 120k say then sell at 90k then it's cost us 30k for accommodation.
> ...


Agreed, especially if needed to sell quickly via a dealer, maybe 60 would be more realistic, half your money in 1 year.

Paul.


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## ozdave (Jan 14, 2013)

Thanks all. Yes we will definitely consider used it's just by the time we drill down, even on a monster sites like mobile.de, there aren't that many options. I also like the idea of having all the 'bugs' ironed out too buying used. We will see I guess.

Thanks also peter for the water and power info... Very good to know.


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## Enock (Nov 11, 2011)

Just a quick heads up...

But for the price, something like this might be an option...

I mean why not consider a pre owned, by a member on here?? I suspect this well maintained van will have had any niggles ironed out, is ready to go, and at the end of the trip, you'd probably get most of your money back.....

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftoptitle-138469-6-berth-swift-sundance-630l-for-sale.html 8)


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## 2years2go (Mar 20, 2011)

Hi Dave

This is something we did in 2007 when our 2 children were 12 and 14. At that stage we were able (with difficulty) to get insurance and so we bought a motorhome in England, exported it to Ireland to register it (thereby bypassing the UK 3500 kg limit) and then took off from there.

We bought a Euramobil 810 eb - ie with 2 full length singles (actually longer than single beds) at the back for the children and a pull down double over the cab for us. For a time we even managed to squeeze in my parents (using the dinner area converted).

It had a large garage where we stored 6 bikes plus a long area between the 2 floors where we stored skis and lots of other crap.

I can't remember the length - somewhere around the 8.5 metre mark. You'll get lots of opinions about this - people saying length makes no difference going forward however I found the length to interfere significantly with the roads we wanted to take and was always on the edge of my seat on minor roads. In some countries driving was easy eg large parts of Spain were narrow roads but largely empty. Wales was a complete nightmare.

Your wife may be braver than I but I would definitely look at getting the shortest van you could possibly envisage living in (but you will need a significant payload). We only got one that long as we had 6 adults in it for a significant period of time. You have 2 adults and 2 children. Hopefully the weather will be mostly kind to you and you'll spend a great deal of time outdoors. My thoughts only and you'll get a myriad of opinions on the subject.

BTW the euramobil was dated in decor but solid as a rock and completely reliable.

Cheers
Lisa


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## alhod (Nov 1, 2010)

I would endorse the comments Lisa has made about size of van on smaller roads in some countries (size does matter!).

We were in the mountains in Portugal a couple of weeks ago - fantastic scenery and breathtaking views but at one point we found ourselves driving down a fairly gentle sloping road along a river valley - narrow road comfortably wide enough for our Burstner (2.4m width) but would have been a nightmare if we'd met another MH coming up. Fortunately we ran the entire 18km (yes, really!) without meeting anything at all, with a sheer drop of a couple of hundred metres on the right and a steep cliff face on the left. Almost no passing places, blind bends every 200m or so and no barrier to stop going over! Had I known what it was going to be I would have saved my wife's stress and taken another route! We were actually following a signed route to a campsite so *** knows how two caravans would cope meeting halfway down.

But my point in this is to say that with a big van it is definitely wise to park up in such areas and rent a smaller car to do the sights!

Alan


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## ozdave (Jan 14, 2013)

Thanks Lisa and Alan,

You've got me a little worried about the size after reading this thread

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-94263-days0-orderasc-0.html

I thought I was comfortable with the idea of an 8.5m or even 9m van. Now I'm not too sure. If it were Australia, I'd jump at a 6m knowing that 90% of the time will be spent outside but obviously europe is very different.

Good to know you could fit 6 bikes in a garage, Lisa!


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## 2years2go (Mar 20, 2011)

My husband has just corrected me. It was 4 in the garage and 2 on the back!

The kids nicknamed the motorhome "SIDRAT" - can you work it out???

Any motorhome's going to be a compromise. The motorhome was an A class - one of the downsides is that an awful lot of heat and sun comes in through that big windscreen. On the other hand the drop down bed was a sensible height so you didn't need a ladder to get down at night. 

We hired one in NZ after our year off. Much shorter length and I felt so much happier in it. It was an overcab - problem was the overcab bed was horrible to sleep in - very hot and coffin-like.

We have also had a caravan in England - about 20 years ago. Had just one baby at that stage. It did not have a separate bed - you had to make it up at night. Can honestly say it did not bother us at all and so I'm not convinced you actually need full time beds for all 4 of you. 

A garage is a must in my opinion for that length of time and you tend to get a double bed over that - perhaps the kids could share that. You can get transverse bunk beds, one above the other but you get a really small garage with that. Our 12 and 14 year olds (of differing sexes) shared a bed quite happily for 3 months of the time. When you're trapped in each other's company for that long, you just have to get along!

If I were doing it with 2 smallish children, my requirements would be a place you and your wife could sit comfortably at night - driver and passenger seats that reverse are good. A double over the garage for the kids and a medium length A class with a drop down double for you and the wife. 

We'll be coming back one day with just the 2 of us - will be so much easier!


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## alhod (Nov 1, 2010)

We have no experience of accommodating small people as all our travelling is with just the two of us, not counting the two dogs, which wife thinks are her babies!
Buit with two children on board for the length of time you are doing I would definitely go for the biggest van you can manage, within reason. I agree with the comments from Erneboy - we have not encountered many difficult spots and they have all been due to width or height, never length.
A good satnav combined with a heafty dose of common sense whould see you round most of Europe without too many problems! Avoiding as far as you can prolonged periods where you are all confined inside will certainly help personal relationships! All of Europe is colder/wetter in winter but you can mitigate that by heading for southern Spain, Greece etc for the worst of it in Jan/Feb
I repeat what I said earlier - parking up on a good site and renting a small car for a few days will get you into many places (country and city) where the van might present issues.

Alan


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## selstrom (May 23, 2005)

There are many town and village centers in European countries with restricted access, normally well signed, length is very rarely a problem, it is height and width which case the problems.

Our motor home is 8.5 m and we have not had any major issues with length on the roads, parking is a bigger problem but we have always found a solution. Any MH that will meet your needs is going to have some problems with parking.

Check very carefully on the load capacity of any prospective MHs as many are marketed with a ridiculous low payload some less than 300 kg! Some appear to have a good payload but the front axle is often close to the permitted weight.

A lot of MH only have 100lt water tanks which will not go far with 4 people.

This might suit you, good dealer near Cologne

http://160.fahrzeugbestand.de/inserate/34608.html


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## ozdave (Jan 14, 2013)

Thanks all.

Lisa, would love to hear more from you about your experience as it closely matches ours. What did you do about your visa for example?

I think we are set on seperate beds for the kids whether singles or bunks. So it can be 'their space' for reading, colouring in etc.

Bunk beds would indeed squish the garage but in turn should (in theory) give a lot more internal space. Or, maybe you could put a garage behind the beds and keep the same length?

Regarding the size of the MH and accessibility, we plan to have 4 bikes which we can use to bike in to tight spots. Plus I thought about having one of these as a folding electric bike so that either myself or my wife can whizz off when we get those inevitable 'Bugger, forgot the milk' situations after we're all parked up. Does anyone think that would work?

selstrom, I've seen a few ads for those Concordes. Whilst they look great, they appear to me to be relatively expensive. I mean doesn't something like:

http://suchen.mobile.de/wohnwagen-inserat/hymer-eriba-b-sl-778-luxus-pur-geldern/171460044.html

or

http://suchen.mobile.de/wohnwagen-i...atik-13-000-reduz-mülheim-ruhr/162666191.html

look like pretty good value compared to the 3yr old Concorde above with 100,000kms

What am I missing here?


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## joedenise (Jul 20, 2007)

Ozdave - what you're missing, I think, is that a 3 year old van should have had any "bugs" sorted out. So many new vans have have various things wrong with them which need sorting out in the first few months - there are many examples on this forum.

I would always go with a 2nd hand van over a new one for both this reason and so you don't have a big hit when you come to sell it.

Denise


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## BobandLin (Sep 6, 2011)

Hi Dave
Speak to Shaun at www.eurocaravancompany.com +441825791816
+447756288835. Came highly recommended to me. They also ship motorhomes and caravans to Australia. Worth a try.

Bob


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## selstrom (May 23, 2005)

In my opinion the Concorde will stand up to the heavy use you are proposing where as the Hymer or Dethleffs will suffer very quickly. When we first looked for a MH every Hymer we looked at had internal damage.

The new motor homes you referred to are not fully equipped and will inflate the price significantly. Some items you might wont to consider:-

Awning, TV, Satalite TV Receiver, Inverter, Solar Panel, Barbecue Gas Connection, Oven, Freezer, etc.

The payload at 774 kg looks generous but you will need to deduct from this the weight of any accessories you have fitted, the weight of 1 adult and 2 children.

Both the MH stated come with a 2.3 lt engine as standard, this seems small for a 5 t vehicle.

If you buy used vehicle a lot of the items you want/need will have already been fitted.

If you are going to be in Europe 2X11kg gas cylinders will not last long, try to get one with a large fixed tank. This winter we were using 5 lt a day when not on hook up.


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## 2years2go (Mar 20, 2011)

Hi Dave

Do you have any other citizenship other than Australian? We did not and visas are a problem. You only get 3 months in any six in European countries under the Schwengen agreement. That said we never had our passports checked in Europe.

The UK on the other hand were absolutely ferocious. Every time we exited and entered the UK were hauled out and interviewed. About 4 months into our trip, one nice immigration man actually reendorsed our passports for another 6 months because I think they must have forgotten to endorse them on arrival into the UK. Other than that UK immigration was unremittingly hostile - one official even quizzed us as to how we were educating our Australian children!

Anyhow we just winged it. Luckily we stayed within visa restrictions of the UK (6 months) and luckily no-one checked in Europe. Not a plan I can heartily recommend but what else can you do?

Always have with you your return tickets home - we had to produce them on a number of occasions.

The way I read it, if you plan to stay in the UK and Europe for a full 12 months and you don't have a UK or EU passport you will be in breach of visa conditions.

Cheers
Lisa


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## ozdave (Jan 14, 2013)

Thanks you again, everybody.

Denise, I understand and agree very much with the idea of having bugs ironed out by someone else. However I guess my point is, on the one hand I've been told I can expect to lose up to 50% after one year and yet when I look in mobile.de, even the vehicles a couple of years old seem to be less 20% off the price of a new. (PS I realise now the comparison I made above with the Concorde is not fair)

Thanks selstrom for that great info. Can I ask where did you get the payload figure from? Doesn't appear to be a field on the mobile.de website nor obvious from browsing around.

Lisa, I have a UK passport and therefore the kids have inherited one too. My wife is the problem however we are looking to get a long stay French visa for her and then travel out from there. Whilst it stipulates 'This is not a visa for Europe-wide travel', as you say, we are hoping to be rarely if ever stopped.

Ironic that the schengen visa waiver, intended to make it easier for certain citizens to visit (and does for short-medium visits) actually makes it harder for long term stays. You can't even apply for a lomng-term schengen visa.


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## selstrom (May 23, 2005)

Full spec here

http://www2.dethleffs.de/gb/motorhomes/06_globetrotter_xl.php

Quoted pay load for I7110-2 before by mistake
I7850-2 pay load 664 kg


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

ozdave said:


> Denise, I understand and agree very much with the idea of having bugs ironed out by someone else. However I guess my point is, on the one hand I've been told I can expect to lose up to 50% after one year and yet when I look in mobile.de, even the vehicles a couple of years old seem to be less 20% off the price of a new. (PS I realise now the comparison I made above with the Concorde is not fair)


But that is mainly the buying from and selling back to a dealer margin. Are you going to want to hang around after your trip trying to sell the van for the same price as a dealer would?

It is possible that the margin between buying privately and selling privately may be lower, but have you got the time to hunt around privately when you arrive and hang about to sell it when you want to leave?

If you want to buy from and then sell back to a dealer you have to take his profit and overheads as a hit.


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## ozdave (Jan 14, 2013)

Stanner said:


> But that is mainly the buying from and selling back to a dealer margin. Are you going to want to hang around after your trip trying to sell the van for the same price as a dealer would?
> 
> It is possible that the margin between buying privately and selling privately may be lower, but have you got the time to hunt around privately when you arrive and hang about to sell it when you want to leave?
> 
> If you want to buy from and then sell back to a dealer you have to take his profit and overheads as a hit.


I understand that completely. Of course the dealer has to make a profit and you're quite right that my unique position might mean I cop a hit worse than most.

But my point is, a lot of people are saying (simplified) 'Buy brand new is crazy - you'll lose 50% in a year' but what's the option?

The 12 month old ones are only 10% less as far as I can see.

So the options are, as I see it...

Buy new at $100K. Sell in 12 months for $70K, say and lose $30K
Buy 12mths old at $90K, sell in 12 months for $62K, say and lose $28K

Doesn't it make sense pay the extra $2K and not have to compromise somewhere along the line?


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## Valian (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Dave
I don't envy you making a decision like yours at a distance and with the issues you face which complicate things....it took us 2 years to come to our decision as to what to buy and a further year to find the right one!

I do think you have a third option: buy slightly older but at the highest level of quality you can find. We had 120k to invest in a motorhome which will be our home for as long as we want to carry on...I would estimate between 8 and 10 years. After establishing that there was nothing new or nearly new that met our requirements within that price bracket (and we considered British, European and American) we bought a 5 year old vehicle with 20000 miles under its belt, and paid 40% of the brand new price of 259k. The evidence suggests it has done virtually all of its depreciating; I could sell it now for almost what we paid for it.

The one downside of this is that some of the technology might not be the very latest....we have the Alde 3010 heating system fitted as standard, but if we'd bought a 2008 model we'd have the underfloor heating. You have to weigh these things against each other and decide what you're happy with. Things can always be upgraded...we took out and replaced all the AV stuff in our motorhome within a week of getting it.

I would certainly have been more than happy to travel Europe for a year with my family in the vehicle we have now...except for my kids' taste in music.........

Good luck with your search

Ian


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## Seldo (Feb 19, 2012)

Dave, as another Aussie Dave we went through all the same issues that you're considering, except that our kids are all grown and safely home in Oz.
After 12 months of research I felt that Germany offered by far the best buying value and range in particular, but I didn't want the price hit nor sorting-issues of a new one, so opted for a 25km 18month old Dethleffs which is 7m plus the bike rack making 7.5m. 
Whilst I understand your desire for space I would counsel you to try to keep it to a minimum. We have never had any real issues in normal driving -parking is always an issue and the difference between 7.5m and 8.5m is SFA, but on the road it isn't a problem. 
Weight is more of an issue, and you will often see signs stating
max weight (or translation) of 3.5t, which is about where we end-up, so we regard those as ok...
We bought our van in Germany and last year did a 3month tour from Germany, through Austria, Switzerland, over the Alps through St Moritz, down around the lakes in north of Italy (that's where it gets squeezy!) and width or height is generally the issue, not length.
We went on through Italy, France, Denmark, Sweden, around Norway, and back through Denmark to Germany where we left the van with friends and picked it up again to continue this year, which is where we are at the moment in Spain.
On our current trip we lost a mirror when we met another Ducato in a cutting on a "white" road in France, and a 5m road will not accommodate 2 Ducatos at 2.55 mirror to mirror.....
One of the exercises that I did prior to purchasing, was to visit several local (aust) dealers and sample their wares, and get an idea of what you can fit in a van of 7, 7.5, or 8m, and analyse what features you really like and what are some must-haves, maybe's and don't needs.
I then spent ages looking at the web-sites of all the major German brands, and most have detailed van-layouts and walk-through simulations that will help. 
We plan to use ours for maybe the next 5 years and then sell it, so depreciation will be amortised over that period to make it more palatable, but bear in mind that GST is I think 21%, so it becomes a real factor in a new one...may be 19%, but for the sake of the argument, it's 20%. Much better to buy one that's less than 3 years old and therefore still under new-vehicle warranty. But definitely, Germany is the place to buy, from a cost basis and also selection. Some dealers have a selection of almost 1000 vans!
I also have the Shengen problem although my wife travels under a Norwegian passport , so no probs. I gave up trying to work-out how to do it legally, and it seems to me that you either stay within the 90 day thing or else just wing-it and hope you don't have an issue that brings you to the notice of the authorities, because I understand they just put you on the next plane, no questions asked...
But, all the best with your venture -it's a great way to do it and I thoroughly endorse it. 
Cheers, 
Seldo


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## ozdave (Jan 14, 2013)

Thanks guys

Some great help and info in those posts.

I'm a used car buyer here in Australia and always have been. I wouldn't dream of buying new for my car. However for this venture, I'm leaning towards a new for the following reasons:

1) get exactly what we want
2) will be from a dealer who can help with freight, registration and possibly insurance (these items are particularly important to me)
3) no stuffing around getting things fitted that a used one may not have
4) under warranty
5) depreciation *may* not be that much greater than the depreciation of a 1-2yr old model also bought from a dealer so it effectively could cost only a little more over the whole exercise

Seldo, a personal question (maybe you'd prefer to PM) but can I ask what you paid for your 18mth old MH vs the new price and was that from a dealer?

Sounds like a great trip so far!


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## ozdave (Jan 14, 2013)

Thanks guys

Some great help and info in those posts.

I'm a used car buyer here in Australia and always have been. I wouldn't dream of buying new for my car. However for this venture, I'm leaning towards a new for the following reasons:

1) get exactly what we want
2) will be from a dealer who can help with freight, registration and possibly insurance (these items are particularly important to me)
3) no stuffing around getting things fitted/changed that a used one may not have (this will eat into valuable travel time!)
4) will be under mfr warranty
5) depreciation *may* not be that much greater than the depreciation of a 1-2yr old model also bought from a dealer so it effectively could cost only a little more over the whole exercise

Seldo, a personal question (maybe you'd prefer to PM) but can I ask what you paid for your MH vs the new price and was that from a dealer?

Sounds like a great trip so far!

PS re the GST/VAT... you obviously pay that buying new but you'd also pay it buying used from a dealer too, right? The only way you avoid it is if you buy privately? And in that case, the private seller will price the vehicle in relation to others in the marketplace so it's not as if you can expect get an immediate 19% off the dealers price PLUS a discount due to no dealer margins & overheads


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

ozdave said:


> 3) no stuffing around getting things fitted/changed that a used one may not have (this will eat into valuable travel time!)


If a used van doesn't have something fitted it is highly unlikely a new van will have it either.



> PS re the GST/VAT... you obviously pay that buying new but you'd also pay it buying used from a dealer too, right? The only way you avoid it is if you buy privately? And in that case, the private seller will price the vehicle in relation to others in the marketplace so it's not as if you can expect get an immediate 19% off the dealers price PLUS a discount due to no dealer margins & overheads


Not in the UK at any rate. VAT is charged directly to the customer on the WHOLE price of a new vehicle.

But as I understand it on non-commercial used vehicles a dealer only pays it on the PROFIT they make on a vehicle it is not charged directly to the customer.

This may or may not be different in other countries.


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Best of luck with your search.

Please do come back on here and tell us what you purchased. Then in a year tell us what you got for it.

Paul.


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## ozdave (Jan 14, 2013)

Hello all,

Just to update after all this research, a German dealer came back to us and said 'Why not rent one - we can do it for Euro1,250/month'

I was gobsmacked as the published price (even on that dealer's website) was for between 120 and 160/day depending on season - over 4,000/month.

So, while we initially ruled our renting, we've jumped on this offer. It is for a <1yr old Hymer B680 Starline, auto with alarm, bike racks & awning. It even includes insurance (which for us was proving to be very difficult). We have agreed to pay 500 extra for 2 x 75W solar panels.

I did reconfirm the price ('Are you sure it's that cheap?') and have since sent my drivers licence and passport awaiting the contract.

I know it's a longterm special deal but really did not expect it to be nearly 1/4 of the price. Hoping he's not made a big mistake...

Cheers

Dave


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## joedenise (Jul 20, 2007)

Glad you've managed to sort this out. Have a great time.

Denise


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