# Dealers can detect remaps



## javea

If a remapping company tells you that their remap is undetectable by the dealer don't believe them.

My son always has his BMW's remapped by a very reputable company, cost circa £850. They told him it was not detectable by the dealer, well, it is in for diagnosis of a turbo problem, dealer had not idea that it had been remapped but has emailed him to confirm that their diagnostics have detected the remap and they will have to refer the warranty claim to BMW for their decision as to whether they will honour it.

I think he may be facing a substantial bill!


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## Techno100

Perhaps he should pass the bill to the mapper :idea:


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## aircool

Its quite easy to detect them and dealer software is definitely going to notice during a service.


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## Twm-Twp

javea said:


> If a remapping company tells you that their remap is undetectable by the dealer don't believe them.


Never looked into the do' & don'ts of remapping / chipping etc ...... but to believe that engine modifications can't be spotted by a trained technician during a dealer workshop diagnostics test is wild ..... it's almost like believing you are about to become rich beyond your wildest dreams when some 'Nigerian' solicitor writes you a letter telling you he wants to send you $30 million in exchange for your bank account details or a fee of just £250.

I think if your warranty has expired on your vehicle and you have worked out that it's cost effective to jig about with your engine ... no problem. But to do anything that may void your warranty is (for me) a definite 'no-go'.


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## Kev1

Please give the solicitor
our address 
This sounds an unbelievable offer and all for £250
hard to believe lol


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## javea

Techno100 said:


> Perhaps he should pass the bill to the mapper :idea:


I am sure he will try that but I don't fancy his chances of success.


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## erneboy

A few months ago the engine fault light in our van came on along with the check engine message. I could not see anything wrong. The van was going fine but even so I went to a dealer to have it checked.

They plugged in the diagnostic computer and within minutes told me that the engine had been remapped and that the remapping software was corrupt and needed replacing. Not an issue for me as we are now out of warranty, but it confirms that remaps can be detected, Alan.


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## listerdiesel

There are also insurance implications as these remaps are classed as modifications to the vehicle's original specification, so if you had an accident and hadn't declared the modification, you could end up without cover.

We declared the Discovery as being on LPG as well as petrol, no problem, but when we said we were fitting airbag suspension assisters, the bells started ringing and we had to forward a full description, manufacturer etc etc.

Remaps are fine up to a point, but you'd be better off getting the higher-spec car to start with, assuming that you could afford the higher-spec car in the first place, which is why remaps exist....

There are some available for the Discovery TD5, takes it from 135bhp up to 150hp or 180hp, but I'd just as soon use the V8 in the first place.

Peter


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## Mrplodd

Peter

We would ALL like the bigger engine option I suspect BUT its a lot cheaper to remap an engine you already have than it is to by a new (bigger) engine. especially if you have bought used rather than new. 

I am aware of the yank expression "There aint NO substitute for cubic inches" (but finance does come into the equation) 

Many vehicles have the same engine fitted but with different maps to get different power. Fiat is the prime example in their motorhomes the 2.3 litre comes in 130 & 150 BHP forms. The engine has exactly the same capacity, bore and stroke so the only possible difference has to be the engine map.

One of the Citroen cars (C4 I think) is the same in that it has 2 power outputs for the same engine.


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## aircool

Mrplodd said:


> Peter
> 
> We would ALL like the bigger engine option I suspect BUT its a lot cheaper to remap an engine you already have than it is to by a new (bigger) engine. especially if you have bought used rather than new.
> 
> I am aware of the yank expression "There aint NO substitute for cubic inches" (but finance does come into the equation)
> 
> Many vehicles have the same engine fitted but with different maps to get different power. Fiat is the prime example in their motorhomes the 2.3 litre comes in 130 & 150 BHP forms. The engine has exactly the same capacity, bore and stroke so the only possible difference has to be the engine map.
> 
> One of the Citroen cars (C4 I think) is the same in that it has 2 power outputs for the same engine.


No replacement for displacement?  Apart from boost...

The 2.3 in 130HP has a dumb turbo and the 2.3 in 150HP guise has what looks like a VNT turbo let alone some of the other ancillaries.

So its more than a map.


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## listerdiesel

I think that there are variations on a theme when it comes to diesels.

The Renault Trafic comes with all sorts of 2.5 litre engines, max is 150bhp, that is common rail, variable vane turbo etc etc., but is is significantly different mechanically to the base 2.5's, as you can see by a peek under the bonnet. The 2.2 car diesel goes to 220bhp.

Fiat have various joint agreements on engines with Renault, so you may possibly find a variant of the Renault diesel under a Fiat bonnet.

Certainly the Renault Master 2.8 turbo had a lot of Italian parts fitted!

My main point earlier was that the 'higher output' engine would be the better bet to start with, rather than just 'the bigger' engine.

A low-stressed large engine is always going to last longer than a highly-tuned small engine, as lots of drivers are finding out.

Peter


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## aircool

listerdiesel said:


> I think that there are variations on a theme when it comes to diesels.
> 
> The Renault Trafic comes with all sorts of 2.5 litre engines, max is 150bhp, that is common rail, variable vane turbo etc etc., but is is significantly different mechanically to the base 2.5's, as you can see by a peek under the bonnet. The 2.2 car diesel goes to 220bhp.
> 
> Fiat have various joint agreements on engines with Renault, so you may possibly find a variant of the Renault diesel under a Fiat bonnet.
> 
> Certainly the Renault Master 2.8 turbo had a lot of Italian parts fitted!
> 
> My main point earlier was that the 'higher output' engine would be the better bet to start with, rather than just 'the bigger' engine.
> 
> A low-stressed large engine is always going to last longer than a highly-tuned small engine, as lots of drivers are finding out.
> 
> Peter


No renault lumps in the Fiat 'vans.

Its either Iveco (Fiat basically) or PSA (Peugeot).

The 2.8 in the master is Iveco.


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## CliveMott

There are many pitfalls associated with engine tuning - re-mapping being one way. Anything that allows the engine to provide more power will without doubt increase engine stress and decrease engine life. What it will NOT do is improve fuel economy. Your driving style might but the engine will not.
If your engine in in a motorbike or a car then a boosted engine will provide sparkling acceleration but once up to speed then the power output of the engine is reduced back to normal levels. In a commercial application like a lorry or a laden motorhome which is almost always close to max gross vehicle weight then any extra power will be used for ages climbing hills in higher gears or increased motorway cruising speeds. Not just for initial acceleration like a car or bike.
Don,t get me wrong, I am not against "making them go" but only do it to your toys and not to the transport that doubles as your home.

My own experience is honed after tuning small motorcycles to the point of total unreliability and also Landrover Discovery when I ended up having to fit a heavy duty larger diameter heavier pedal clutch system to take the torque, bigger anti-roll bar to make it corner, better brakes to make it stop, bigger leccy cooling fan and then there is that little smoke test for the MOT when it all had to be turned down a tad for a few days to make it pass!

Yup, been there, done that, been offered free re-mapping for the motorhome but NO THANKS.

Oh yes, What happened to TB turbo?


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## Twm-Twp

CliveMott said:


> There are many pitfalls associated with engine tuning - re-mapping being one way. Anything that allows the engine to provide more power will without doubt increase engine stress and decrease engine life. What it will NOT do is improve fuel economy.


Totally agree.

PS: No offence Mr Mott, but if you are 23 you must have had a bloody tough paper round when you were a kid. Only joking .... just seen your photo of your first camper.

PPS: If I knew how to insert a smiley icon ... I would have done !!


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## listerdiesel

aircool said:


> No renault lumps in the Fiat 'vans.
> 
> Its either Iveco (Fiat basically) or PSA (Peugeot).
> 
> The 2.8 in the master is Iveco.


Ah yes, I'm old enough to remember when Fiat was Fiat and Iveco as a conglomerate was still a twinkle in someones eye!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Iveco, an acronym for Industrial Vehicle Corporation, originally an alliance of European commercial vehicle manufacturers such as Fiat (including OM and Lancia Veicoli Speciali), Unic and Magirus. Iveco is now an Italian truck, bus, and diesel engine manufacturer, based in Turin. The firm is a subsidiary of Fiat Industrial, having been demerged from the Fiat Group at the start of 2011, and produces around 200,000 commercial vehicles and 460,000 diesel engines annually, and for the year ended 2007 the company had €11,196 million in sales (revenues).

Today the company is a significant player in the medium-duty trucks and engine markets, and is near the top for sales of passenger transport and 3.5 ton light vehicles."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iveco
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So really, when we say Iveco we mean Fiat and vice-versa, except when it isn't! 

Peter


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## TJ101

CliveMott said:


> What it will NOT do is improve fuel economy.


Every "proper" remap that i have had in a car, has improved the fuel economy , all by a average of just under 10%

Had a old D2 TD5 for year as a tow workhorse,, that was remaped to 180 bhp odd for 80.000 miles plus out of its 190k we had it for, pulled as well as any V8, gave near 30mpg (up 3.5mpg after mapping)

Done about 15k on the Range Rover (3.6 TDV8), again now with a map,, and again better consumption that it was without

The Camper has a map,, again, an improvement on fuel, and tow 3 tons with greater ease

If a proper remap is carried out on the original manufactures software,,and downloaded by the same method as the manufacturer, very rarely it can be detected by reading the cars info ,

The OP need to have a word with the people who mapped the car,,


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## aultymer

If a remap is "undetectable" how would the engine behave differently.
The management system has to see the remap or it won't do anything!
If the management system can see it then so can the dealers computer.


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## TJ101

The dealers diagnostic reader would only see the "correct original" software part number on a map that has been done correctly, 

So long as all the vehicle "modules" come back as the car was originally supplied with, all will be well


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## ched999uk

It all depends on how sophisticated the dealer software is. It would be very easy for the manufacturers to provide a md5 type code of all official maps. Any maps whose md5 check sum did not match the published ones would be a non authorised map. 

Put simply a md5 code is a 128bit code that is unique to a single piece of code. Even if a single digit was changed in the map the md5 code would be different.

So it all depends on dealers software.


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## erneboy

On the topic of MPG. My van was remapped at the dealership when new. It developed a fault and the remap was replaced when the van was three years old.

I now get three MPG less than I did and the drop off in performance when climbing hills or overtaking is very striking.

I haven't yet decided whether to have another remap, Alan.


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