# X250 Wheel Bolts - spanners & Kwikfit fitters



## WildThingsKev (Dec 29, 2009)

I've just swopped my winter wheel/tyres back to my summer ones, in the past I've had this done by Kwikfit but decided I could save time by doing it myself. Ha!

I started on the rear wheels first using the Fiat scissor jack, which I actually found ok. The wheels have only been on 7 months and I found the nuts a bit hard to release but once eased they mostly undid by hand. Except one, see photo, my Fiat box spanner bust in the attempt. I'm only 11st and if I'd been changing a wheel on the roadside I'd have been pretty well stuffed.

That was the easy part.

Front wheels, now using a "made in England" Britool bar on a socket extender. Well I bust that too, see the next picture. It's probably been in the family since my Grandad ran his own garage in the '40's. The front bolts were really tight and not just to release. Nearly all the way out I had to undo 1 turn, tighten 3/4, undo 1 turn, tighten 3/4 etc otherwise they were threatening to lock up on the way out! I guess it took about 10 minutes to undo and free up each front wheel bolt. Whereas the rear bolts still had all their plating the front ones were a bit rusty, see photo. The only way I could put them back in was to use a little copper grease and even then I had tighten and undo a bit most of the way in.

I think it'll be just as well to get new bolts for the front even though the threads look ok the height of the thread is a bit less than on the unused part of the thread.

I watched the fitters torque up the bolts in November, presumably to too high a value but they can't have been wildly over. So why has this happened? Is it the extra heat from the front disc brakes (we do a lot of Alpine driving)? Do I need to be concerned about the thread in the hub?

So, if you carry a spare and think you might be able to change your own wheel at the roadside it might prove more difficult than expected.


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

I've had the problem on a number of occasions that tyre fitters have over-tightened wheel nuts. Fortunately I've had no problem loosening the wheel nuts on my motorhome but I invested in a Halfords breaker bar for about £20 a couple of years ago and I've found that has enabled me to remove even the tightest wheel nuts. I believe I've read somewhere that it's not recommended to use copper grease (or any other grease) on wheel nuts as it may permit them to come loose! I use it on the wheel hubs as I know what a problem it can sometimes be getting wheels off, especially alloys.


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

peribro said:


> I've had the problem on a number of occasions that tyre fitters have over-tightened wheel nuts. Fortunately I've had no problem loosening the wheel nuts on my motorhome but I invested in a Halfords breaker bar for about £20 a couple of years ago and I've found that has enabled me to remove even the tightest wheel nuts. I believe I've read somewhere that it's not recommended to use copper grease (or any other grease) on wheel nuts as it may permit them to come loose! I use it on the wheel hubs as I know what a problem it can sometimes be getting wheels off, especially alloys.


I agree. Threads should be clean and rust free bud no lubricants should be used.


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## camoyboy (May 9, 2005)

The wheel bolt torque for steel rims on the Ducato is 118 lbs ft for 15" rims and 133 lbs ft for 16" rims.

Colin


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

Hi

Those torque figures don't seem too high to make it that hard?!

One thing I have found is undoing the nuts one after the other, rather than alternate as you do when tightening, can leave the last one too tight. Tightening the rest back again then frees up the tight one enough to undo easily.

I would also not lube the threads. I've read that lubing of course makes the nuts easier to turn, so the given turning torque of the nut will be achieved at a much higher tension in the body of the threaded bit which are surpisingly easy to stretch.


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## WildThingsKev (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks guys.

I should point out that one of the spanners bust after the bolt had been freed and was about one turn undone but starting to seize again.

I'm aware it is not normal practice to put any lubrication on the threads but they were just so tight even after being run in and out several times that I considered it the only long term option.

I phoned a Fiat garage for the price of shiny new bolts... £5.83 each + vat! The service manager said spray them with WD40 to help them go back in;  so that seems to be normal garage procedure. The copper grease did actually say for use on wheel nuts. 

I also tested the torque on greased versus ungreased a few times before doing all of them and there was no difference. It is all heavy duty stuff so once the bolt cone comes into contact with the wheel it does not move much more. I applied a thin smear ragged into the thread which will hopefully be enough to stop them seizing again.

The hub thread is open on the inside end and you can see on the photo that the corrosion seems to have worked in from that end.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

If you want to be sure you will not have the trouble again, get a 3/4" drive Tommy bar and the appropriate size Impact Wrench socket (they are much tougher). A piece of pipe would not be a bad thing to carry either.

Me? 

I carry just a mobile phone for these occasions.


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## Dill (Jun 3, 2010)

I have always wire brushed the wheel bolts then lubricated the threads in the hub and the bolt before I have tightened them up. Done that for over 30 years and have never had a problem with them coming loose. The bolts tighten up on the taper not the thread. The problem is where the bolt thread goes through the hub and out the other side, this part is open to the elements and builds up rust at the end of the bolts. I have seen many Fiats damage the thread in the hub when they are taken off with an impact gun. 

Dill


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## anjasola (Jun 24, 2009)

Copper grease is my friend.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

I once had a wheel change at the tyre department of a main ford dealer.
As I always check my wheel nuts, on my arrival at home I got out the wheel brace and one nut could not be budged. This was only about half an hour after they fitted it.
I returned to the garage and even they could not loosen it and had to CUT it OFF  
I now carry a torque wrench and always check my own wheels  
Luckily, my local tyre fitter always torque the last bit by hand


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## loddy (Feb 12, 2007)

BillCreer said:


> peribro said:
> 
> 
> > I've had the problem on a number of occasions that tyre fitters have over-tightened wheel nuts. Fortunately I've had no problem loosening the wheel nuts on my motorhome but I invested in a Halfords breaker bar for about £20 a couple of years ago and I've found that has enabled me to remove even the tightest wheel nuts. I believe I've read somewhere that it's not recommended to use copper grease (or any other grease) on wheel nuts as it may permit them to come loose! I use it on the wheel hubs as I know what a problem it can sometimes be getting wheels off, especially alloys.
> ...


You cannot torque a dry bolt, as I remember from my engineering apprenticeship back in 1966, I have rebuilt vintage Bentley engines and it states in their manuals all threads should be oiled !!

Loddy, who has fitted thousands of wheels with oiled threads


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

I could be wrong but assume that most new bolts will be coated with oil to preserve them.
Alan


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

I had an artic trailer wheel come loose once in Spain.
It broke a few studs and elongated the nut holes. 
and I have seen a wheel come bouncing down the road, and worse still, I have seen a wheel planted through a windscreen and into a person 

It certainly makes you check your wheels :!:


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## airstream (Jan 7, 2009)

*Do as Manufacturer says*

Hi 
The answer is simple

Do as stated by the manufacturer

They do the calcs and the testing - what Joe did to torque up the prop on the Lusitania has no relevance on a fiat X250

Info on lube or no lube and torque here

http://www.zerofast.com/torque.htm

Ray


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## joedenise (Jul 20, 2007)

Have you never noticed that they gun the nut up and then put a torque wrench on but they don't have to go far as it is probably over torqued already.

joe


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## tony50 (Oct 16, 2007)

joedenise said:


> Have you never noticed that they gun the nut up and then put a torque wrench on but they don't have to go far as it is probably over torqued already.
> 
> joe


I agree withyou Joe , the answer was in wild thingys first paragraph Kwikfit changed his wheels last time !, and it's obvoius the air impact tool was ajusted higher than the torque wrench setting , having been in the garage trade , we used to set our impact tools fairly low and finish tightnening with a torque wrench and now I don't change my own wheels / tyres I always ask the fitters not to have the impact tool set too high whether they do or not I dont know but there again I have my own torque wrench , iI loosen off wheels nuts and torque them again myself and aqgain 50 miles later if possible or check them with hand wrench . Don't forget a overtightened wheel nut can be as dangerous as one not so tight ie. it can just fall off through stress.

Tony A


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## Oscarmax (Mar 3, 2011)

I would inspect the bolt hole seats on your steel wheels, it may have cause the seat to distort or in extreme cases to split ?.

I have always clean the threads up using a wire brush and lubricated with plus gas prior to torqueing the bolts


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Do as Manufacturer says*



airstream said:


> Hi
> The answer is simple
> 
> Do as stated by the manufacturer
> ...


Thanks Ray you saved me searching and have provided some very important safety information.

My interpretation of the information you provided is that you should NOT lubricate wheel nuts and bolts.

A lubricated nut/bolt requires less than half the torque to correctly tension it than a "normal" dry one.

Anyone disagree?


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## WildThingsKev (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Do as Manufacturer says*



BillCreer said:


> airstream said:
> 
> 
> > Hi
> ...


HA! I had to take a wheel of my Saab today, looked in the manual (like you should) and it say "lubricate the surfaces indicated with a thin layer of grease", the accompanying diagram indicates the entire thread. However it is an odd wheelnut because the "collar" is loose on the bolt, and the torque is only 110Nm, so I guess the manufacturer has factored all this in.

Back to my X250, I'll be putting the winter wheels (that's your old ones Bill) back on this week so hopefully they will come off easier than last time.

Kev


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

*Re: Do as Manufacturer says*



WildThingsKev said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> > airstream said:
> ...


Hi Kev,

Hope the wheels have been OK.

Going by the "paper" that Ray provided you will have applied the correct torque on lubricated Saab threads and because of the lubrication they will only require a low torque setting.

If you lubricate the threads on the Ducato zinc coated studs then you should not tighten them up as much. As you do not have torque settings for lubricated Ducato studs then you should put them on dry or risk greatly over stressing the studs.


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