# NHS waiting lists and money does talk



## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

I have been out of hospital for 8 weeks after being admitted with water work problems due to sudden back pain. 
An emergency MRI scan showed I had 2 slipped discs. 
Two months along the line and I am still on the waiting list to get on the main waiting list to have them removed. 
Apparently to keep within the waiting times they have started this waiting list so you are not on the real waiting list over the target time. 
They have told me I will have an appointment by 13th Jan and an operation would be 26 weeks later (July). 
In the mean time I can't do anything, including struggling to get dressed on my own. 
Then work agree to pay for a private operation (£8000). 
Ring on Tuesday MRI Friday second appointment with the consultant next wednesday and operation on 4th January (it would have all been done in 2 weeks if it wasn't Christmas). 
I thought we were supposed to have one of the best health services in the world?
Maybe the lists are so long because the surgeons are busy doing private work? 
Is it about time we scrap the NHS and pay as the do in the US? 
James


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## PAT4NEIL (Jul 21, 2007)

We have Just had a similar scenario, but cant afford private. But we could have used Patients Choices scheme and would have had operation within 13 weeks, instead of 18 weeks to have second consultation and then put on the list for the operation.

Mad, they can play the figures anyway they wish.

Hope yours operation goes okay.

Regard Pat


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## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

Hi its the same with cataracts, my MIL was living alone and had several health issues including cataracts, she was seen early in the year (this was in 2008) on the NHS and was told that it would be Oct before the 1st eye could be done.

All the family encouraged her to see about going private, and my Husband did all the ringing around etc I think from memory it cost about £2,000 for both eyes and it was all done within weeks, on the day of the 1st eye being operated on I took her mid morning and wow she was treated like royalty and the room was lovely, in fact that nice that MIL said she woulddn't have minded a weeks holdiay there. I also parked the car for free, and as soon as they were happy with MIL which was only a couple of hours later she was allowed home. Had she been on the NHS she would have had to be in the hospital some 26 miles away at 8am in the morning and allowed home at tea time when the doctor had done his rounds.

I said at the time that I just wish we had the money to guarantee that if I needed to go in hospital, that I could go private. 

At the beginning of this year MIL ended up in the same hospital but the NHS part and it was a completely different experience for her, when she was at her worst and couldn't get to the loo on her own, there were several occasions when she needed the loo in the night and when ringing the bell no one came, once she ended up on the floor and once she just couldn't wait any longer and had the embarrasing situation of wetting the bed, she is 82.

And then of course there were all the problems we had with the NHS and my own Dad earlier this year.................but thats another story.


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## camper69 (Aug 30, 2007)

Just had my own battle with the NHS in trying to get a physiotherapy appointment for my daughter. First the referral got lost between her doctor and the hospital. Next we received a letter asking if she still wanted an appointment and when I phoned I was told they are not giving any more appointments out till they employ a new member of staff and have them CRB checked. That would be January at the earliest when we would get the appointment which would not necessarly be in January. One formal complaint later and she has an appointment this afternoon and there was actual a selection of dates she could have had. Someone had got something wrong

Derek


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

I think it depends where you live...

FIL had 2 NHS catatact operations about 3 years ago. A matter of 6 weeks from optician recommending visit to GP, GP referring to the local hospital and the first operation. He was collected in a comfortable minibus with 3 others, taken to the hospital, the operation was perfomed in a small theatre and afterwards he waited in a lounge with a constant nurse present and hot drinks and lunch, until he was pronounced fit and taken home in a taxi. 

The second operation was done in the same way a few months later but he came home on the minibus with the others that time !

G


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Not sure you would like the US system JP.

All our American friends pay a big chunk every month for their medical insurance. BUT it's rarely 100% and the odd 5% they can end up paying can run into thousands for just the simplest of opp.

A Cortisone injection cost a friend $250 and that was just the excess on her insurance. She has been having treatment for muscle and joint problems and now owes more than she will ever live long enough to pay off.


This is why 20% of Americans don't have any medical insurance.
I needed some antibiotics for a tooth abscess a while ago. It cost my travel insurance $400 for the prescription and the meds.
I bought the same bottle of tablets the next week in Mexico for $4.49. Americans are being ripped off by the medical 'profession'.
Ray.


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## badger750 (Nov 1, 2009)

my son had grommits fitted when he was about 4ish we went to the nhs normal route but was told it would take ages to see consultant my fil was in the post office when he worked and was a member of benenden had had only just put the wife and son on his list as members so had to wait 2 months before he was seen we went up in december to harley street and he had his operation in january treated very well nice room and nurses when he had another problem with his ears a couple of years later we stayed with the nhs but ended up seeing the same doctor/surgeon as before when private still very good but took abit longer to get treatment as he only worked nhs a couple of days a week


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## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

"Private health insurance" in this country is a misnomer. The treatment may take place in a private hospital, but as has been pointed out uses NHS trained & probably employed consultants.

It's a means of jumping the queue IMO. As such I took out PHI for the whole family through an insurer.

Money well spent & I've Had reason to use it twice already. It's cheap when compared to what our trans-atalantic cousins have to fork out.

The only down side is that you're then dealing with an insurer & their claim department :evil: & they don't like you making claims :twisted: :twisted: 

D.


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## Daedalas (Nov 12, 2009)

Morning All
We had a family member who had a heart attack; went sharpish into A&E: they fortunately put him Coronary Care / Intensive Care, just in case, despite his protestations he was now OK. He then arrested when he was all wired up and plumbed in. The CC / IC team got him going again but called the family together at 0400 hours!
Later his doc and docs in the family said he needed the [scan with dye in arteries ... angiograph?] to know what is going on: his NHS consultant apparently said he had to wait: 3 months for the angio-thingey; 3-12 months for surgery if it proved necessary.
As a family we decided we needed to know and paid £2,500 for the angiograph privately: as far as we know the NHS position was not changed but his docs and family medics said "Needs Action this ... NOW!" One gave us the starkest warning I've ever heard from a doc and events proved he knew his onions.
Fortunately £12,000 could be set aside: he was with the surgeon in 7 days; he then threw a wobberly in the consulting rooms and was admitted there and then - 6 days of stabilisation in CC / IC and then the operation. 
The transformation is ... well spring chickens come to mind. And after that consulting room wobberly the surgeon declared a full emergency so the NHS footed the £12k bill.
Thank goodness the family had the funds but it does make you wonder about the two track system and about the families who cannot face that sort of bill. 
And it wasn't exactly an age-ist thing - he wasn't even drawing his OAP.


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## dinger (Jul 30, 2007)

*Private health*

Had a double disc replacement in my neck some 3 1/2 years ago, C5,6,7
all done in a private hospital, 3 weeks form neuro surgeon making the proposal to performing the op.

The total was in excess of £15k , but luckily our company had made the decision to take private health insurance soon after it started and has to be one of the best things we ever did.

We can argue the moral ethics of the national health service , but when its YOU that is suffering , desperation takes over.

Most of the surgeons as i understand keep their hand in doing work for the NHS , but once the budget for certain ops is exceeded that plays into the hands of the private sector ....... whom will proudly state " we are only fulfilling a need "

My understanding is , the health service provided in some other european countries is a bit more efficient and can support 99% of the population.

France and Germany being two examples.


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## suedew (May 10, 2005)

I agree money can talk, but the resources used are in private hospitals using their staff, with the exception of the doctors who do both NHS and private work.
The people opting for this help to reduce the waiting list.
Being articulate also helps as can shouting the loudest! not right but it does happen.
Needed a biopsy of a lesion on my leg, change discovered day after b.i.l had died from cancer, my partner had lost his first wife to the dreaded C. I wanted to know asap. GP suggested doing it in his surgery, but then said it might need a skin graft though. In his surgery I didn't think so and declined, he then suggested referring met to a general surgeon, which i also declined if i need reconstructive surgery i want an expert. First appointment with NHS, (my employer) would be 13 weeks, pointed out that guidlines say 2 weeks maximum, no joy. Opted therefore to have it done privately, couple of days later.
Consultant, who has patients on our ward sometimes, says you should have spoken to one of the team on the ward, we would have arranged it.
Sackable offence though!!
Benign lesion thankfully, was worth the price for the peace of mind it gave me.
First port of call in disputes should be the PALS team they seem to get things moving.
Sue


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## camper69 (Aug 30, 2007)

suedew said:


> First port of call in disputes should be the PALS team they seem to get things moving.
> Sue


I have had experience of our local PALS. who were going to take up to a week to get back to me when my whole complaint was how sloooow they were going.

I would agree that the more articulate/ who shouts the loudest ( not literally) seem to be seen first, but what else are you to do when you think they are not performing.

Derek


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## havingfun (Oct 31, 2007)

*nhs money does talk*

hi,
yes money does talk,long story,but went for new glasses,good news,dont need them,but eyes still sore,and they found a lesion behind my eye,panic set in.... the story was,letter to doctor,doctor writes to eye hospital,they send letter,with appointment cancelled.....excuse me.,then lose notes,hospital ask me to ask my doctor to write again,doctor not impressed,eye hurts that much,go to casuallty,tell me the pain is dry eye,nothing they can do,age thing,but the teardrops take the pain away,but...i must see a specalist because guess what,i,ve got a lesion behind my eye.

i finally see a specalist,great guy,but he dosent do backs of eyes,and thats where the lesion is,so if i dont get another appointment in 2 weeks phone eye hospital,Guess WHAT,LOST MY NOTES AGAIN.doctor has to write again with my details,he,s not impressed,tell him not my fault.when they finally find my notes,ask when appointment will be,deadly silence,i,m at the bottom of the list again,ask to pay to see specilist,am told they willask,this is friday afternoon,sat morning specalist himself phones me £160 for appointment,monday lunch,yes please,30 min appointment,lesion benign,come back in six months.

now racing around trying to pack flat up to go and live in van for 12 month,hope to go in 10days,maybe,wouldent do anything until i got good news.
mags

oh,i,ve still not got a result on my knee,but that is only pain,not terror.


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

I have no idea what medical insurance costs but I could have been paying for the last 20+ years so maybe it's worth just saving your money and stumping up when needed? 
I am lucky work are paying but if I spread the cost over the 24 years I have been working it is £25 a month. 
Then again my op is a fairly simple disc removal and costs £7278 + my initial visit £220 what would a major op cost ? 
JP


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## 96783 (Nov 23, 2005)

I can empathise with Dinger's point. I was in our local surgery with my wife when the doctor, doing a week's locum before taking over the practice. She looked at me and asked if I was well. My wife reeled off a list of things that were wrong. I was looked over, admitted to hospital within 24 hours and after various tests transferred to the central clinic which specialised in blood disorders, treated amazingly well and discharged after 10 days. Apart from a charge of €10 per day and now monthly injections I am fine but 50 years ago would have died. The other noticeable difference between the German system and the NHS, at least in Dortmund, was that in each clinic I was in a 2 bed ward with en-suite facilities. The food was a bit different but perfectly adequate.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Just received this from a friend in California who I suggested read this thread. Just passing on the view from America.

Ray.

Yes I think James is naive and Ray Nipper at least seems to have some understanding of the issues. Stacey has just been told that her leg problem is “cosmetic” and no longer covered under our “top of the line” policy. We pay over $1,000 for the two of us each month and then we still have a 5% we must pay and also pay for all drugs etc which cost me over $1,000 a yr. Brits who think they have a hard time are in my opinion wining ignoramuses. They should really look at other countries rather than just mouth off based on zero understanding. France is probably the best system in the world as it happens but then one day the bills will truly have to registered and watch things change there too.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

My husband has two brand new knees absolutely free courtesy of our NHS.
Our daughter, a physio, was doing work experience in an amputee unit during her training. One of the amputees had been operated on at the local BUPA hospital privately. His femoral artery popped (ruputured) and he bled to death on the way to A&E. She was told by her more experienced colleagues that this what not an uncommon occurance with patients from the private hospital. They put it down to the fact that the consultant operates on his own without the foot soldier registrars that usually do all the ops!

We also have personal experience of the American system. It is a case of dealing with insurance companies at the most difficult time in your life i.e. when you are ill! 
My brother nearly burst a blood vessel when his wife was dying of breast cancer and he was caring for a toddler and the insurance company kept asking him for money.
We considered moving there and asked for quotes for health insurance. The most basic one was £500 (yes pounds) a month each. We are both fairly healthy if a little bit past our prime :roll: 

I'll stick with the NHS.

Pat


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

patp said:


> My husband has two brand new knees absolutely free courtesy of our NHS.
> Our daughter, a physio, was doing work experience in an amputee unit during her training. One of the amputees had been operated on at the local BUPA hospital privately. His femoral artery popped (ruputured) and he bled to death on the way to A&E. She was told by her more experienced colleagues that this what not an uncommon occurance with patients from the private hospital. They put it down to the fact that the consultant operates on his own without the foot soldier registrars that usually do all the ops!
> 
> We also have personal experience of the American system. It is a case of dealing with insurance companies at the most difficult time in your life i.e. when you are ill!
> ...


Thanks Pat I wasn't looking forward to my op but now I am petrified!!


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

James,

I'm glad work saw sense - although I'm sure they made the decision purely on the grounds of economy. It will shorten your pain by half a year, so I'm pleased for you. Backs are just so troublesome if they get damaged - design fault in my view.

Keep us posted.

Dougie.


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

Thanks Dougie
Hopefully I will be back at work towards the end of January and will probably be up at HQ for a month or two so I will be hiding in your office drinking coffee.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

JP said:


> and will probably be up at HQ for a month or two so I will be hiding in your office drinking coffee.


Hide all you like. I'll be outta there during the first week in February. 

Dougie.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Sorry JP. 

I am sure you will be absolutely fine :lol: 

Pat


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

patp said:


> Sorry JP.
> 
> I am sure you will be absolutely fine :lol:
> 
> Pat


No problem, only joking (I think)


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## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

All of this got me wondering.

Do NHS employees, say doctors, consultants etc need or have private health care. 

Or is there a "rates for mates", back door type of system, all be it unspoken where those in the profession can get access to treatment ASAP :?: 

D.


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## MrsW (Feb 8, 2009)

Well, I saw my GP 3 weeks ago with a shoulder problem. She referred me to a different GP in the practice who saw me 2 days later and told me the problem was too severe for him to inject. Within 2 weeks he had arranged for me to see the specialist to have it injected in the hospital (today) Specialist told me it needed not just an injection but also physio in a weeks time when some of the inflammation and pain should be subsiding. I pointed out it would be Christmas Eve, so then and there he got hold of the physio who saw me and taught me the first lot of exercises I needed to start. She will then send me a further appointment for after Christmas. No payment, no string pulling, just the NHS working as it can.


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## Invicta (Feb 9, 2006)

badger750 said:


> my son had grommits fitted when he was about 4ish we went to the nhs normal route but was told it would take ages to see consultant my fil was in the post office when he worked and was a member of benenden had had only just put the wife and son on his list as members so had to wait 2 months before he was seen we went up in december to harley street and he had his operation in january treated very well nice room and nurses when he had another problem with his ears a couple of years later we stayed with the nhs but ended up seeing the same doctor/surgeon as before when private still very good but took abit longer to get treatment as he only worked nhs a couple of days a week


Worth taking a look at the Benenden scheme mentioned by badger 750, I have recently joined. 

www.benenden.org.uk


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## Middlepits (Nov 1, 2009)

Middlepits hubby posting I have not created my own account.
My views may differ from my wife.
Especially when she is annoying.

NHS Is absolutely useless.
Anyone who has been to casualty lately last five years or so would know. Or in any hospital on any ward anywhere in the uk.
Waiting times are immense ( casualty ) and triage nurses ( casualty ) are in my opinion not educated well enough.
Consultant waiting times are ridiculous.
Operation waiting times are ridiculous.
Mis-diagnosis is rife.
Care is unaceptable.
Hospitals are dirty.
Same goes for local GPs.
Just attending an appointment is a joke.
Turn up a couple of minutes early and wait 45 minutes. Why?

My wife and children I always have referred private instantly.
Very fast, very clean, very nice and not mega expensive ( especially compared to the price of a motorhome ) and so far ( touch wood ) all problems sorted.
Some major, that waiting on nhs could possibly have become much worse.
I could give many details of inept nhs care just within my immediate family but most people who use the nhs will know they are not fulfiling their duty.

By the way JP your employer must be pretty good offering to pay for your operation.

If you are having it done privately you are very unlikely to have any problems. so don`t worry and good luck.


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

Had another consultation yesterday, nice coffee in the waiting room and appointment just a few minuets late. 
I saw the scan from last week and it was amazing to see the details right down to the nerves being squashed. 
I could clearly see the bulging disc which the consultant described as a big boy. 
Two choices, one is to leave it alone and rest for another year to 18 months and it will hopefully have healed. 
The second choice is a keyhole operation in early January, maybe even out of hospital the same day depending on the time of the operation. 
Instant pain relief and back to work in two weeks with some light duties for a month or two. 
Work are willing to pay (£7278) but will they be in a years time? 
Do I want to spend another year in pain? 
Do I want to risk permanent nerve damage while I wait for my body to eat away at the bulge? 
I don't think waiting is a real option. 
James (looking forward to a pain free 2010)


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## blondy (Aug 23, 2007)

I went to have bowel check this morning,they found non aggressive cancer,
Booked in for christmas eve for major check, then first week in jan for cat scan plus opp in feb, I think this is terrific service.


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## Zozzer (Aug 13, 2006)

Yes, money DOES talk, especially if you require specialist treatment that is done at one of those newly formed Patient Care Trusts, such as the one in Wigan.

PCT's are allocated funding from the NHS to meet the clinical needs of the community they serve. However they can aquire additional funding when treating patients who are not resident within the PCT area. 

One such hospital is Wrightington within the Wigan PCT, and is famous for pioneering work in knee, hip, and other joint replacements.

Yesterday at 06:00am, I took Mrs Zozzer to Wrightington Hospital to be booked in at 07:00am in order to have minor surgery at 11:30am (2nd on list).

Today, I returned to pick her up after she was discharged. In all 60 mile round trip (4 journey's) plus £4 car parking charge for disabled parking

While in hospital, she got chatting to lady in the next bed who had travelled all the way from the Isle of Man. As if that wasn't enough of a shock, the lady informed Mrs Zozzer that the NHS had paid for the transports of getting her to hospital. This included taxi to the airport, the airfare to Liverpool airport and a taxi to Wrightington. Yes she said, they also pay the cost each time I came over for a consultation.

Now you don't have to be Einstein to see what is happening or how people are queue jumping.

I don't know what anyone else thinks, but I feel it is fundamentally WRONG that someone living on an Off Shore tax haven should be subsidised like this, when people living within the health trust have no means of getting to the hospital by public transport for designated appointments. And are forced into providing their own transport at their own cost.

Sadly Andy Burham has no control over any of the PCT's as in the new scheme of things when power was handed over they became, effectively a private limited company, contracted to provide medical care.

Another classic case of rip off Britain.


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## Invicta (Feb 9, 2006)

Interestingly the reciprocal arrangements for IOM residents to receive NHS treatment ends on the 1st April 2010. I understand that it was the UK Government that announced it is to terminate its reciprocal health agreement with the Isle of Man.

The 6,500 patients referred to the UK each year for treatment will be unaffected and the Manx Government will pick up the tab as before at a cost of about £6 million annually.

But both Island residents visiting the UK and UK residents visiting the Isle of Man are being urged to take out travel insurance to avoid them facing a potentially very large bill for ongoing medical treatment if they have an accident or incident that requires their emergency admission to hospital.

The termination of the reciprocal agreement, will also blow a £2 million hole in the finances of the Island's already overstretched DHSS.

Island residents who require emergency or immediate necessary treatment while visiting the UK currently have it provided free of charge and funded by the UK.

When the agreement ends, while their initial treatment in the UK will remain free, any resultant admission to hospital for inpatient treatment or surgery will have to be paid for by the patient.

Similarly, UK residents visiting the Isle of Man will receive free initial emergency or immediately necessary treatment but will be required to pay if they are admitted to hospital. Currently the DHSS gets an allowance of £2 million from the UK government to cover this treatment.

This could have major implications on the TT as visiting bikers who have a serious accident while in the Island to watch the races could potentially face a medical bill running to many thousands of pounds unless they take out travel insurance.

People will be treated as Manx or UK residents depending on where their permanent home is and where they are registered with a GP

I would really like to see action taken against the thousands of the 'NHS Tourists' who are not part of the UK such as the IOM and the Channel Islands where I understand the reciprocal arrangements for healthcare for visitors has already ceased. Here I am particularly referring to the USA. Just look at the health insurance we are advised to take out when we travel across the pond!


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Hello Invicta,
I heard the Channel Islands are now coming into a similar reciprocal arrangement with UK.

Ray.


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## Invicta (Feb 9, 2006)

Has already happened Ray!

see below:

Channel Islands - Free Healthcare to End and EHIC Not Valid 
From April 1, 2009 travellers from the UK will need to take out travel insurance when visiting the Channel Islands. The Department of Health issued the recommendation following news that the reciprocal healthcare agreement between the UK and Channel Islands will terminate on March 31. (The agreement with the Isle of Man will terminate a year later, on March 31, 2010).

UK visitors who sustain injuries or become ill while visiting the Channel Islands (which includes Jersey, Guernsey, Sark, Alderney and Herm) will be required to pay for their own medical treatment from April 1, 2009. The same will apply for residents of the Channel Islands when visiting the UK.

Note: The islands lie outside the EU, which means that the European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) is not valid. This is a good time to check the expiration date of your EHIC as, according to the Department of Health, more than three million cards are now out of date.

For more information about the termination of the reciprocal healthcare agreements visit the Department of Health website.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Humphf an darn Invicta.
I can't now hop a ferry to Jersey with my European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) in my hand to get 100% cover for any major ailment. 

Have to make do with the 70% in France I guess.

Ray.


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