# Well who knows



## aldra

Well Manchester is taking a stance

We cannot take more refugees

Without the government response 

Which isnt happening 

And yes is impacting on our schools and health service 

And we all talk about multi cultural benifits

Without talking about the disadvantages to the indigenises population, and those immigrants already here 

So hear Webby 

I’m really supportive of multi cultural

But a bit reluctant of unicultural 

Which excludes me 

And already were excluded

So what do you suggest ?

Visit the local curry house , gosh there’s dozens here , the local shops, well they are all 

Muslim 

Smile as we stop to let to them cross the road , when they don’t even make eye contact 

Or even acknowledge we’ve stopped 

We are invisible 

Of no account 

But our house is 

Sandra


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## raynipper

Sad innit Sandra. The pendulum has swung too far. All things in moderation.

Ray.


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## aldra

It has

And I’ve supported so many as a social worker but as a manager of the Kosovans

Those who remain

Well they feel I count 

They hug me , and so they should , I went the extra mile for them, and they were Muslims 

The ones Webby is determined to say I don’t care for , maybe I should send names and addresses 

Including those I managed to get home to Kosovo 

Sandra


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## rayrecrok

When I was at school everybody in the schools I went to from infant to senior to College all spoke Yorkshire English, not one person anywhere spoke in a foreign tongue, everybody had a white face just like mine in school and in the folk in the surrounding district.

The first coloured face I saw was on the local bus, he was a clippie I would have been about 9 or 10 years old, I remember I was fascinated by him, he was a great guy who made us laugh..

Now the schools have interpreters as schools have to speak many languages within classes other than English..

How things change.. For the better I wouldn't like to say.

ray.


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## Webby1

Give it a rest Aldra........it's a motorhome forum...........what is it that makes you keep on and keep on posting like this ? (they're not after your house again are they ?)

The point I try to make to you, is that despite your middle of the road,well intentioned posts, people like Tommy Robinson feed and and grow strong on them.

Don't feed the bigots and the racists..................................it's exactly how it started with the Jews.........................................you should know that.

Got to stop now................ before the "brigades" start responding.


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## aldra

It could be

But no way is the Muslim population going to integrate 

It’s against their religion 

We are and remain the infidals 

And only around me?

I don’t think so 

Try all all over Europe 

An upper class English village with one or two professional families , yes 

But here?

We are the minority 

Which doesn’t mean I dislike them , far from it 

It’s just not my cultural norm 

And to be fair I’m not theirs either

And as I’m only a blip, they can ignore us

And they do by and large 

Sandra


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## aldra

Webby1 said:


> Give it a rest Aldra........it's a motorhome forum...........what is it that makes you keep on and keep on posting like this ? (they're not after your house again are they ?)
> 
> The point I try to make to you, is that despite your middle of the road,well intentioned posts, people like Tommy Robinson feed and and grow strong on them.
> 
> Don't feed the bigots and the racists..................................it's exactly how it started with the Jews.........................................you should know that.
> 
> Got to stop now................ before the "brigades" start responding.


No you give it a rest Webby

You don't live here

You don't have to try to fit in to a culture that isn't yours , that has no disire to fit you in

I'm not racist, I just want to live my life , preferabally with those who share my culture

And ignoring that I find it a problem isn't the answer

Accusing me of being racist isn't an answer either

The truth is the Muslim community do not wish to Integrate , here or elsewhere

And once they have sufficient numbers they don't need to

So maybe you should be challenging the Muslim communities

And asking them to become part of the community they live in

Rather than a people apart

Sandra


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## patp

It brings to mind how Norfolk people used to be when "foreigners" moved to Norfolk. They were genuinely scared of people not born and bred in the County. Its geography meant that people did not "pass through" on their travels so, historically, strangers were considered threatening. It has taken more than half a century to change that. It has only changed because the "settlers" changed and adapted to the way of life in Norfolk. Taking things more slowly. Asking locals for advice rather than telling them how to do things. Integrating in other words. 

You rarely hear the Norfolk dialect any more, which is a shame. But people smile and say hello in the street. This comes as a culture shock to city dwellers who move here but they soon "get it". Everybody knows every body else's business. Again it is a culture shock but it soon becomes the norm because they adapt to the local culture. We have still not become as friendly as Northern folk mind you. That might take a few more centuries 

So, I understand where you are coming from Sandra. If only there was an effort to integrate it could all be so different.


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## raynipper

I often hear the Norfolk dialect Pat. My wife is a Norfolk broad and when she is chatting to her sisters it's broad.!!!

Ray.


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## patp

When we first moved here, Ray, I could not understand a word the local butcher said! It was like being in a foreign country. I used to just point and smile


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## rayrecrok

Well for a start we have decided that on the 25th of Dec we have booked a table for four and one kid for our Christmas dinner... At La La's an Indian restaurant.. £25.00 a pop set meal £15.00 for the nipper.. Webby is that multi cultural enough for you?... It was or is now fully booked with us booking, and the only time left was at 12 noon for the last table in the place..

ray.


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## JanHank

patp said:


> When we first moved here, Ray, I could not understand a word the local butcher said! It was like being in a foreign country. I used to just point and smile


I moved to Norfolk from Suffolk 50 years ago, they thought I spoke posh :grin2: then when I moved to Cambridgeshire they thought I spoke like Pam Ayres, then I moved to Germany and I get lots of smiles when I speak.


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## barryd

rayrecrok said:


> Well for a start we have decided that on the 25th of Dec we have booked a table for four and one kid for our Christmas dinner... At La La's an Indian restaurant.. £25.00 a pop set meal £15.00 for the nipper.. Webby is that multi cultural enough for you?... It was or is now fully booked with us booking, and the only time left was at 12 noon for the last table in the place..
> 
> ray.


Now that is an excellent idea. Curry for Christmas lunch with a bucket of lager. Get in!! Can I come?


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## caulkhead

barryd said:


> Now that is an excellent idea. Curry for Christmas lunch with a bucket of lager. Get in!! Can I come?


Two more Lamb Bhunas here! :grin2:


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## JanHank

Wos wrong with you two, rays already said he's nabbed the last table space, standing room only now.:laugh:


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## wug

I wonder how many from the "ethnic minorities" are on here and what they would think of some the expressed opinions?


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## aldra

My granddaughters dad always has a curry for Christmas dinner 

I’m not so fond of English style curries, a bit wet for me 

I like the western Indian curries , they tend to be dryer 

But Christmas for me is turkey, roast belly pork, and lamb

And turkey butties with all the trimmings on Boxing Day 

This year only four of us, our daughter is hosting the family for Christmas and of course we are invited , but we’ll give it a miss , young Albert and his mum will come here, young Albert wants a kebab 

Our Megs will be here Christmas Eve , so it will be a ham cooked in apple juice 

I don’t know yet if I’ll host a party, prob not, I’ll just invite individual families for a meal during the Christmas , new year period

The truth is now that we are getting older we can’t really focus with too much noise , too many people 

Sandra


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## JanHank

My thoughts on that Sandra are, you have carried on this tradition for too many years, it should have been taken over by the youngsters years ago, but I bet you wouldn't let them you old mother hen :grin2:


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## aldra

wug said:


> I wonder how many from the "ethnic minorities" are on here and what they would think of some the expressed opinions?


Wug

If they are from the ethnic minorities

They maybe feel the way I do

Here I'm an ethnic minority

And during my life living in Israel I was always an enthic minority

But we fit in by adopting and respecting the culture around us , not by ignoring it

And we benefited from their culture , and would no doubt benefit from our nieghbours culture

If they didn't ignore us

But of course we have been gradually excluded as the community expands to fit the space and houses available

And we feel excluded

And we are no longer and vigorous

So would appreciate the comfort of our own culture, the familiar , and even our own culture includes the many who over the years have integrated theirs with ours

Sandra


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## Mrplodd

I simply love France, one of the most enjoyable aspect is the number of TOTAL strangers who make the small effort to say a cheery “Bonjour” to Mrs P and I when our paths cross in the street (or anywhere else for that matter) That certainly DOESNT happen in many places in the U.K. does it?

But then of course they are equally happy to grind the country to a halt by blocking the road network because they don’t like what their President (who they elected FFS!) is proposing to try and prevent their economy going the way of Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugal. 

Strange race ain’t they?

Andy


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## raynipper

I like em Andy. We are double booked all the way up to before Christmas here. Very sociable race.

Ray.


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## aldra

Well our granddaughter needs to go to the doctor 

He won’t Renew her prescription withoutshe visits

And she’ll stay here overnight 

And Albert will take her back to work the next day to ensure she there on time 

And we are lonely?

We’re exhausted

Sandra


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## JanHank

Of course you feel lonely Sandra after all that family business your wound up like a coil spring, now you have to unwind, you will find things to occupy your body (praps not) and mind that you haven't had time to even think of before. Blimey, all those memories you and Albert have to talk about and chew over for instance. 
Maybe there is a hobby you have never had time for before, how's your French for instance, learn a new language that would be challenging and occupy your active brain.
Trying to help. :laugh:


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## aldra

Lonely isn’t something we know Jan 

Maybe it’s something we need to try 

Everyone passes through this house 

Are fed and sent on their way 

Kids and grandkids 

And now there is Jane, her two kids and Archie 

Will she be part of those who constantly pass through?

I rather think she will

But it will be her choice 

I put no pressure on any of them to come

Other than I feed them 

And young Albert many years ago

Would burst through the door and announce 

Grandma, she hasn’t fooded me 

And knowing my daughter she prob hadn’t 

She suffered from depression and didn’t food herself 

But I fooded both of them 

And now she’s fine

But I can scarcely food him ,he’s a picky eater

How he ever got to 6fioot 4 , is beyond me

Sandra


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## Pudsey_Bear

Webby1 said:


> Give it a rest Aldra........it's a motorhome forum...........what is it that makes you keep on and keep on posting like this ? (they're not after your house again are they ?)
> 
> The point I try to make to you, is that despite your middle of the road,well intentioned posts, people like Tommy Robinson feed and and grow strong on them.
> 
> Don't feed the bigots and the racists..................................it's exactly how it started with the Jews.........................................you should know that.
> 
> Got to stop now................ before the "brigades" start responding.


If people don't say how they feel, how do we know if there is a problem? it's not racist to say there are too many immigrants is it?, or that you feel an outsider in your own home.

We are a soft touch and the whole world knows it, time to shut the door to all but those genuinely in need.

Back in the 60's the question was often, would you let your daughter marry a black man??? well would YOU? but now religion comes into the frame too, same question. Would you let your daughter marry a ???


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## Drew

In Scotland, after you asked a girl to dance, the first question either you or she asked was, "What school did you go to". In other words, are you a catholic or protestant.

Earlier on this year when I was having a chat with a Scottish consultant heart specialist, the first question he asked was, "What school did you go to" the same question over 50 years later.


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## Webby1

Pudsey_Bear said:


> If people don't say how they feel, how do we know if there is a problem? it's not racist to say there are too many immigrants is it?, or that you feel an outsider in your own home.


No it's not and I often feel exactly the same....................the problem for me is to keep going on about it at every opportunity................feeding and stirring it up again and again.

By the way I would certainly let my daughter marry.................a Rolling Stone ??...................that was the other stupid question raised at the time.


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## JanHank

Webby1 said:


> No it's not and I often feel exactly the same....................the problem for me is to keep going on about it at every opportunity................feeding and stirring it up again and again.
> 
> By the way I would certainly let my daughter marry.................a Rolling Stone ??...................that was the other stupid question raised at the time.


I wish I had a daughter :frown2: or a son :frown2:


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## aldra

I would let my kids marry whoever they choose

Regardless of colour, race or creed 

It’s their life to lead 

I guess they would realise that stepping outside the norm can bring extra pressures to bear on a relationship 

Or I’d hope they would 

Sandra


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## aldra

Webby1 said:


> No it's not and I often feel exactly the same....................the problem for me is to keep going on about it at every opportunity................feeding and stirring it up again and again.
> 
> By the way I would certainly let my daughter marry.................a Rolling Stone ??...................that was the other stupid question raised at the time.


you Just can't help yourself can you Webby ??

It was a news report that I was commenting on

Did you write to the BBC to complain about it?

Sandra


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## raynipper

We all want 'the best' for our kids and we all know what some kinds of entanglements can create. Not always for the best. Not getting into race or religion but parents can often see what young and emotional young brains don't at the time. It's called education, be it academic, life, prospects or just experience. 
I'm sure our prejudices and ambitions filter through to our children. Be it down the mine or on the stage.

Ray.


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## raynipper

JanHank said:


> I wish I had a daughter :frown2: or a son :frown2:


Be happy with what you have Jan. We have now decided we get all the pleasure and none of the anguish petting other peoples pets.

Ray.


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## barryd

My elder sister married a Muslim from Jordan when she was 19 (I was 15) back in 1981. I remember my Granddad at the time being outraged and refusing to go to the wedding but he came round and oddly they became bessie mates. I had a pretty good insight into the Muslim world of that time. They were a smashing bunch of lads really but despite the predigest at that time they did integrate. They stuck together of course as pals but they did integrate. To be fair most of them ended up pretty westernised. They loved me as I used to call them all "Jammy Arabs"  I do wonder if anything the Muslim and Christian world has put up much more barriers since and if anything rather than moving closer together we have become less trusting and less integrated in certain parts of the UK than we were all that time ago. I guess we can blame the actions of a few crazy nut jobs for that. Point is, its a two way street integration but Ive seen the neighbours Sandra talks about and she is right. They are just not interested in integrating. Its not my experience though. Ive worked with and still do have Muslim friends but they dont live in Muslim communities. The same thing happens with Brits abroad though. Just look at parts of Spain or even the Dordogne.


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## raynipper

Is she still happily married Barry?
Sadly the British enclaves in Spain and Dordogne are mainly due to Bits lack of language 'skills'. They tend to stick together which is Catch 22.

Ray.


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## patp

I think the language barrier is a key one Ray. When we were first married we had Indian neighbours. Not that common in those days. No matter how hard I tried I could not engage the lady of the house in conversation. She would smile and nod at me and then disappear as quickly as she could. I used to wonder at how isolated she must feel. 
I worked alongside some West Indians and also some Indian ladies. One day a new Indian lady started, in another department, and we mentioned this to our Indian colleague so that she could, perhaps, welcome the newcomer into our fold. She point blank refused and I later found out that she considered the new lady to be "lower caste".
The West Indian, however, was the life and soul of any party and I greatly enjoyed working alongside his smiley face! His English, I have to say, was excellent as was his ability to laugh at himself.


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## raynipper

To an extent our limited French does restrict our circle of French friends and neighbours to those who appreciate our limitations and slow down to our level. We can spend the whole day in the company of some neighbours but sadly only manage a few minutes with others who diction is like a machine gun.

Ray.


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## JanHank

Do they talk fast in the UK now as well, we often have to ask the professionals to slow down because we don't understand, even when Hans goes to the hearing aid shop they rattle on and he has to ask them to slow up.


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## barryd

raynipper said:


> Is she still happily married Barry?
> Sadly the British enclaves in Spain and Dordogne are mainly due to Bits lack of language 'skills'. They tend to stick together which is Catch 22.
> 
> Ray.


Nah!  Not to him at least. They lasted 16 years I think and got divorced. Nothing unusual or different from many divorces though. My sister remarried as did he and all parties are now the best of friends.


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## aldra

Well that wouldn’t be a yardstick Barry as you rightly point out 

It’s a different world of divorce etc 

But a difference of race, culture and religion can be a tie breaker on a relationship 

It was a worry we had in Israel , we lived in a religious moshav, our son was welcome to all their homes 

He was 13, I’m sure he would not have been as welcome at 16 and onwards 

And who knows maybe they were right 

They wish to preserve their religion and traditions 

Muslims wish to preserve theirs, or their family and culture do 

It’s great to feel there could be a great big melting pot 

But history has shown us it ain’t going to happen 

Sandra


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## raynipper

Cross culture and cross country marriages will always be a problem when children come along and grandparents are distant.

Ray.


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## jiwawa

Drew said:


> In Scotland, after you asked a girl to dance, the first question either you or she asked was, "What school did you go to". In other words, are you a catholic or protestant.
> 
> Earlier on this year when I was having a chat with a Scottish consultant heart specialist, the first question he asked was, "What school did you go to" the same question over 50 years later.


Not where I grew up in Edinburgh Drew.

And I knew nothing about Orangemen till I married and went to live in Portadown, NI.


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## aldra

JanHank said:


> I wish I had a daughter :frown2: or a son :frown2:


I understand Jan

It is a special gift

But it comes with responsibilities

And those responsibilities continue through the grandkids

Sandra


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## JanHank

My Mum had 10 grandchildren, she had no say or part of there growing up, because they didn't live close by. :laugh:


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## aldra

Maybe I live to close Jan 

And I love my grandkids 

Especially those who float in and out of my life on a regular basis

And Archie is lovely, but I’m fed up with his crying , his things all over my house 

His mum I admire, she is a great mum, but not so good on putting things away 

But I think I could admire her from afar 

And she won’t be that far, within walking distance 

So she can choose to come here or not 

And that will be up to her 

He’s my 11 th 

Is it awful that I feel well I can take him or leave him ?

If he doesn’t visit regularly 

Well I’ll leave him 

Proximity is the answer 

It always is 

My three originals lived with me

I know them so well 

And to be fair I know the others too

And they visit regularly and hug me 

I’m their grandma 

I feed them 

And to me feeding equates with love 

Sandra


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## Webby1

aldra said:


> you Just can't help yourself can you Webby ??
> 
> It was a news report that I was commenting on
> 
> Did you write to the BBC to complain about it?
> 
> Sandra


You just can't help getting it wrong can you????

The dated 1970's nonsense comment about marrying a black man or was it a Rolling Stone came from Kev and had nothing to do with you at all.

My request to you once again, is stop stirring it up on a motorhome forum..................................you are the only person on this Forum who constantly

and consistently posts negative comments about Muslim people..................I have to keep asking you to give it a rest.................


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## JanHank

Webby1 said:


> You just can't help getting it wrong can you????
> 
> The dated 1970's nonsense comment about marrying a black man or was it a Rolling Stone came from Kev and had nothing to do with you at all.
> 
> My request to you once again, is stop stirring it up on a motorhome forum..................................you are the only person on this Forum who constantly
> 
> and consistently posts negative comments about Muslim people..................I have to keep asking you to give it a rest.................


You've just quoted something from 14 posts away so who is it that won't give it a rest :serious: it had got onto a lighter level.


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## barryd

I disagree Webby. The problem we seem to face these days is it almost seems taboo to speak of such things in case we might offend someone or appear to be racist. We enjoy freedom of speech in this country. Nobody has said anything hateful IMO or offensive for that matter. Even if you dont agree with what someone has said just silencing peoples views particularly on religion or race doesn't help anyone.


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## rayrecrok

Don't forget to run your reply's through webby first, it appears he is the thought police!..

Once again webby, wind your neck in, it's you who is not coming out of your posts very well. 

ray.


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## aldra

You should all just ignore it 

And leave Webby to me 

I like bouncing bunnies 

I’m not so keen he misrepresents everything I say to mean I hate Muslims 

Which patently isn’t true 

But he clearly needs to understand that many are not as tolerant as me 

On either side 

And there is a growing problem both here and abroad 

And it isn’t down to intolerant, racists, northerners 

They are only part of the problem 

What concerns me is he offers no solutions or suggestions to advance integration 

So does he think integration is not important ?

He says he feels the same ?

But of noble stock he keeps his silence 

Unless he’s riding on the wings of others 

All I’ve heard him say is he enjoys a curry 

Well if a good curry equals integration 

Gosh “up north” we’ve had curries for years 

Since the cotton trade 

And we have the Italians , the Chinese , the Jews and Caribbean’s etc

All who have integrated and remained separate to some degree 

So don’t imagine we don’t understand multi cultural “up North “

So why do the Muslims keep themselves as a people apart ?

It’s an interesting discussion 

Could it possibally be religious directives ?

It’s something that could benefit from discussion on both sides

And the Master of Psychology in me is interested in the answer 

Why would they kill in the host countries ?

Why would they kill other Muslims whose beliefs didn’t tally with theirs ?

And why not kill us whose beliefs certainly don’t tally with theirs ?

The kids at the Manchester Areana, just kids who hadn’t even formulated their beliefs 

Is it just a rogue group who grew in strength , and how did ISIS grow in such numbers, who financed them and why ?

Who finances the Mosques? On what terms?

So Webby you won’t silence me 

Unless you come forward with some answers 

To some deep questions that need an answer 

And I imagine many if not all of the Muslim community would need an answer too

Sandra


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## aldra

But I remember you once asked me how I dared to post living where I do 

It was about was the god of Muslims a gentle God 

And I replied if he was I had nothing to fear from them 

Do you feel you have something to fear ?

And of course they want my house

They want every house in this area and they’ve almost got them all 

But we’ve lived here for 30+ years , slap bang in the middle of them

So we’ve got credence 

Six kids, 11 grandkids and a hound from hell 

We’re almost one of them 

Sandra


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## Pudsey_Bear

JanHank said:


> I wish I had a daughter :frown2: or a son :frown2:


Bet they'd be good at fetching balls Gerty :wink2::wink2:


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## raynipper

Threads gone wrong again. Can't see last post and always get redirected to the first post on last page???

Ray.


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## Drew

jiwawa said:


> Not where I grew up in Edinburgh Drew.
> 
> *And I knew nothing about Orangemen till I married and went to live in Portadown, NI.*


*
*
I'm not surprised Jean, did you attend St George's School in Edinburgh?

In your history lessons, was it ever mentioned that "The Great Bonnie Prince Charlie,"

*Charles Edward Louis John Casimir Sylvester Severino Maria Stuart * was a 4'10" Italian who had never set foot in Scotland until the 1745 uprising? After he was thrashed, the cowardly Italian made his way back to Rome, never to be seen or heard of again.

For the record, he was Born on 31 December 1720 in the Palazzo Muti, Rome, he Died on 31 January 1788 (aged 67) Palazzo Muti, Rome, he is Buried in St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican City.

That is a starter, I'll let you find out the rest for yourself.

During the late fifties and early sixties I danced my way round the coast of Scotland from Girvan to Glasgow and all the other villages in-between. I can't think of a dance hall that I missed. I was asked, and asked* "That" *question everywhere I went. The only time I spent in Edinburgh was when I played rugby, I never danced there, too posh for us. We used to think that the "Edinbuggers" put a gobstopper in their mouth before they left their house.


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## aldra

Well controversial again 

Are you ready Webby ?

A big procession in Blackburn to celebrate the birth of Mohammed, thousands marching through the streets 

Great I have no problem with that 

Except why do we need to dum down Christmas for fear of offending ?

Christmas is no longer coming, the holiday is coming 

No it’s Christmas , the birth of Christ, equal to the birth of Mohammad and possibally just as unlikely 

But Christmas has been part of our culture for years 

And many may not believe 

But many do

And for them and me we celebrate the birth of Christ 

In a Christian country 

And do we really need to understand that people who are not Christian may be offended 

Tough

If I can accept the celebration of the birth of Mohammad 

They can accept The birth of Christ 

It’s Christmas, the celebration of Christ’s birth for so many people 

For many just a celebration 

But it’s still CHRISTMAS 

Not just any holiday 

Sandra


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## raynipper

Agreed Sandra and I'm an atheist. 

Ray.


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## Mrplodd

Well said Sandra and, like Ray I’m a confirmed atheist too! 

Andy


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## barryd

Well we celebrate Christmas here. Nativity plays, Christian services and celebrations. The usual lit up Nativity scene outside the main church in Barnard Castle. Mind you nothing has changed here for decades.


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## Pudsey_Bear

Ditto, atheism is the new christianity. 

Let all religions coexist in harmony, and stop fighting over something which never existed in the first place, worse than bloody football in the 70's


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## dghr272

To any of our Muslim members, I would like to distance myself from some of the comments here and I wish you well in your celebrations.

If we don't have any Muslim members it's no bloody wonder !

Terry

We have Christmas celebrations here, but those bloody Catholics go overboard with this Mary worship/fixation ! (Doesn't sound great does it ?)


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## Pudsey_Bear

Me thinks thou protests too much


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## raynipper

I bet some ijut suggests making Trump a saint.


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## Pudsey_Bear

I think you have to be dead for that, so who'll second the motion.


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## caulkhead

aldra said:


> Well controversial again
> 
> Are you ready Webby ?
> 
> A big procession in Blackburn to celebrate the birth of Mohammed, thousands marching through the streets
> 
> Great I have no problem with that
> 
> Except why do we need to dum down Christmas for fear of offending ?
> 
> Christmas is no longer coming, the holiday is coming
> 
> No it's Christmas , the birth of Christ, equal to the birth of Mohammad and possibally just as unlikely
> 
> But Christmas has been part of our culture for years
> 
> And many may not believe
> 
> But many do
> 
> And for them and me we celebrate the birth of Christ
> 
> In a Christian country
> 
> And do we really need to understand that people who are not Christian may be offended
> 
> Tough
> 
> If I can accept the celebration of the birth of Mohammad
> 
> They can accept The birth of Christ
> 
> It's Christmas, the celebration of Christ's birth for so many people
> 
> For many just a celebration
> 
> But it's still CHRISTMAS
> 
> Not just any holiday
> 
> Sandra


A lot of the stuff that's been in the media in the past about schools etc having to tone down Christmas so as not offend non-Christians has proved to be nothing more than media scare mongering.

You live there, I don't, so I'm not in a position to say that you are wrong, but are you absolutely sure that what you say about Christmas being "dumbed down" is correct and that you are not just swallowing the urban myths that often surroud these events?

In Southampton, the nearest large urban area to me, there is a big mix of cultures and faiths in the schools and in the city in general. Christmas is celebrated here the same as it ever was and so are religious holidays and festivals from other faiths. Tolerance is at a high level, especially in the schools.

Are you absolutely sure that it's not the same where you live Sandra , and that you are not allowing your fears and prejudices to colour your thinking?

Just a thought!

Andy


----------



## barryd

Watch this video 

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/12/15/muslim-man-riaz-kahn-ban-christmas_n_8809220.html


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## raynipper

As an atheist I am 'offended' by all forms of religion. What about my rights?

Ray.


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## aldra

Never said it was the Muslims that want to ban Christmas 

Many of them are shop and market traders who do well out of the festive period

Its the political correctness brigade that appear to want change Christmas to holiday, to include everyone

And give no offence 

And for those who still believe, it’s Christmas to celebrate the birth of Christ, a Christian celebration 

And there is no reason that should give offence to anyone 

Sandra


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## jiwawa

Drew said:


> I'm not surprised Jean, did you attend St George's School in Edinburgh?


No I didn't Drew, I went to an ordinary mixed sen.secondary. I don't even understand the implications of your question but I suspect you think I'm some toffee-nosed upper-class twit. Tho I do have to admit to being an Edinburgher. I was just putting forward that your assertion didn't hold true for all of Scotland.



Drew said:


> I was asked, and asked* "That" *question everywhere I went. The only time I spent in Edinburgh was when I played rugby, I never danced there, too posh for us. We used to think that the "Edinbuggers" put a gobstopper in their mouth before they left their house.


I think that may be your problem rather than mine.

However, you're quite right about the history teaching - we had very little in the way of the history of our own country. The emphasis for my group was the Plantagenets.


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## jiwawa

Drew said:


> I'm not surprised Jean, did you attend St George's School in Edinburgh?


No I didn't Drew, I went to an ordinary mixed sen.secondary. I don't even understand the implications of your question but I suspect you think I'm some toffee-nosed upper-class twit. Tho I do have to admit to being an Edinburgher. I was just putting forward that your assertion didn't hold true for all of Scotland.



Drew said:


> I was asked, and asked* "That" *question everywhere I went. The only time I spent in Edinburgh was when I played rugby, I never danced there, too posh for us. We used to think that the "Edinbuggers" put a gobstopper in their mouth before they left their house.


I think that may be your problem rather than mine.

However, you're quite right about the history teaching - we had very little in the way of the history of our own country. The emphasis for my group was the Plantagenets.


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## aldra

Well these kids here are not mine 

And they are not allowed Christmas celebrations 

Because there are other religions 

The don’t do Jewish 

But the boy kids, nonmuslim were taught how to pray at the mosque , 

And why not 

We are overwhelmed with 

With the Muslim religion up north 

With halal foods 

Even those that are vegetarian and clearly not meat need to be Halal

And I don’t want my meat bled to death 

I want it raised and killed in Britain 

Under humane registration 

I no longer want it from the Eu either 

Sandra


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## caulkhead

aldra said:


> Well these kids here are not mine
> 
> And they are not allowed Christmas celebrations
> 
> Because there are other religions
> 
> The don't do Jewish
> 
> But the boy kids, nonmuslim were taught how to pray at the mosque ,
> 
> And why not
> 
> We are overwhelmed with
> 
> With the Muslim religion up north
> 
> With halal foods
> 
> Even those that are vegetarian and clearly not meat need to be Halal
> 
> And I don't want my meat bled to death
> 
> I want it raised and killed in Britain
> 
> Under humane registration
> 
> I no longer want it from the Eu either
> 
> Sandra


Don't you have supermarkets in your part of the world? I'm pretty sure you do! In which case buy your British, non-halal meat from one of them.

As for being "overwhelmed by the Muslim religion up north", is your heart and soul overwhelmed by it? If you have faith in your heart then surely, no matter what you are surrounded by, then you are secure in your beliefs? Speaking personally, I have no faith, but I'm assured by those who do, that they need no church to be a believer.


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## aldra

My faith is not overwhelmed 

And of course we have supermarkets 

But even halal creeps into those

You don’t know that many large companies need to fly the halal brand even on products that have no halal requirements ?

And they pay for the privilege , or we do 

Schools are gradually adapting all halal food

Yet they were never all kosher werethey ?

Yes this area is almost all Muslim , give or take a few of us, a big area 

If that’s fine so be it 

It’s just one of many in the future 

And no I’m not happy 

Because birth rates gradually reduce the indigenous population 

We will over time become a Muslim country 

And that something the Muslims are openly saying 

Look at Sweden 

Sandra


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## patp

I had heard that a lot of supermarket meat is Halal. I imagine it is since the demise of the small, local slaughterhouses. Animals are transported many miles to the super slaughterhouse where it is very secretive, Since then, I have refused to touch it. I go without or I go to my local traditional butcher who knows the actual farmer he buys his meat from. Occasionally, if forced to shop in a supermarket for meat, I will buy organic, in the hope that the farmer cares about his livestock enough to supervise the slaughter. It is bad enough that we have to slaughter animals but to do so in such a barbaric way is horrendous. 

An elderly aunt of mine, who does not live near a traditional butcher, buys her meat on-line straight from the farm. You might like to investigate this method, Sandra.


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## aldra

I buy British produced meat from Aldi

Raised and killed in this country

I don’t do frozen, I freeze it myself 

I don’t do halal , I don’t do kosher

And I won’t be doing imported from America either 

And it’s a growing trend

We want British produce , apples, fruit and veg

Long May it grow 

Sandra


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## Pudsey_Bear

I think you are right Sandra, no need to bomb us, just wait and they will out breed us, but it'll be expensive as there will be no NHS left.


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## dghr272

Pudsey_Bear said:


> I think you are right Sandra, no need to bomb us, just wait and they will out breed us, but it'll be expensive as there will be no NHS left.


Just what hardcore Protestants say about Roman Catholics, and just as objectionable.

It's not Muslims that'll do the NHS in, it's the Conservatives. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Terry


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## dghr272

aldra said:


> I buy British produced meat from Aldi
> 
> Raised and killed in this country
> 
> I don't do frozen, I freeze it myself
> 
> I don't do halal , I don't do kosher
> 
> And I won't be doing imported from America either
> 
> And it's a growing trend
> 
> We want British produce , apples, fruit and veg
> 
> Long May it grow
> 
> Sandra


"Long may it grow" but who's going to harvest it ?

Terry


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## aldra

Well I don’t think the Muslims ever did, Terry

But to be fair they worked our Northern Mills 

And they have a right to be here

Do they have the right to marry complete strangers in foreign lands and bring them here?

Surely there are enough born here to marry by now 

But male and female “ choose “ partners abroad 

And of course why not it’s a cultural requirement 

But is it a British cultural requirement ?

Or does it mean that once again kids enter school without the English language 

And before you start 

I have two daughters who teach primary school aged children 

And many of our poorer kids are disadvantaged , doubly so when they compete with kids whose first language is not English 

And as I know as an ex hospital social worker

Thousands are spent on interpreters 

Which if you compare to Israel for example 

Everyone enters Ulpan, for 5 months they learn Hebrew, even we did and we were not Jewish , and they are dealing with every language 

Sandra


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## barryd

Well if your worried about Muslims taking over our country then you wont like the latest ONS immigration figures. If you voted for Brexit then you only have yourselves to blame. As predicted EU Immigration has shot down but none EU immigration from Asia has gone through the roof to compensate since the vote.










https://www.shropshirestar.com/news...gration-up-while-eu-figure-continues-to-fall/


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## HurricaneSmith

aldra said:


> I buy British produced meat from Aldi
> 
> Raised and killed in this country
> 
> I don't do frozen, I freeze it myself
> 
> I don't do halal , I don't do kosher
> 
> And I won't be doing imported from America either
> 
> And it's a growing trend
> 
> We want British produce , apples, fruit and veg
> 
> Long May it grow
> 
> Sandra


We wish to support our farmers and rarely buy meat from supermarkets now.

Take Tesco. They have different packs of duck with the Gressingham label. Sounds Norfolk and should be fine.

When you look closely, one pack says reared and packed in Norfolk, which is what you'd expect and is fine.

However, another pack in the same store with the Gressingham label says packed in the UK. When you look closer the birds have been reared in the Far East and flown or shipped to the UK for packing only. I think that's dishonest.

So the supermarket suffers and our local butcher profits. It costs more, but at least he's honest.

.


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## Webby1

As I said many posts ago and in other threads please Aldra just give it a rest............you are the only person on this Forum who constantly and consistently posts this

kind of stuff. I think there were similar posts last Christmas...............I know first hand the pain and upset these kind of comments can create and what they can lead to

I don't want to stop your freedom of speech as @barryd said....................I have my freedom to speak as well I presume.

There is no thought police @rayrecrock..................it's just another "brigade" created to frighten people into towing the right wing agenda.

Finally it's not me keeping it going @JanHank...........................it's 8 pages in and it's still same old same old.

I just ask again that you stop at almost every opportunity having a go at Muslim people........................it just feeds the racists and bigots.

Even your latest thread "They've all gone now" I thought it might be about all the local Muslims moving out.

Why not enjoy your Christmas...........there may be odd Muslim individuals telling you to dumb it down............there may be odd PC folks telling you that Jesus has to be

black (now there's a thought) BUT there will always be individuals like this (and terrorists) it is NO EXCUSE to condemn a whole group of people.


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## aldra

slowly people are becoming concerned about animal welfare, air miles etc 

More interested in British reared and killed 

More interested in grown in Britain, fished in Britain

Mind you the EU are also very interested in fished in British waters 

Providing they have caught it there

Sandra


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## patp

I remember reading, somewhere, that a great deal of the meat in our supermarkets is halal. There is no requirement to label how the animal is slaughtered. It is because the huge slaughterhouses are geared up to slaughter using halal methods so they just carry on using that method and we get that meat in our supermarkets.


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## raynipper

Crackers.

Ray.


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## Drew

raynipper said:


> Crackers.
> 
> Ray.


Christmas Crackers, cheese crackers, wholemeal crackers, what are you on about Ray?


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## Pudsey_Bear

patp said:


> I remember reading, somewhere, that a great deal of the meat in our supermarkets is halal. There is no requirement to label how the animal is slaughtered. It is because the huge slaughterhouses are geared up to slaughter using halal methods so they just carry on using that method and we get that meat in our supermarkets.


If I found any evidence of this I would stop using that supermarket, I think it is unlikely to be true as there are so many whistleblowers out there nowadays it'd be all over facecloth and twotter etc, not to mention TV and Radio.


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## raynipper

Drew said:


> Christmas Crackers, cheese crackers, wholemeal crackers, what are you on about Ray?


Halal meat Drew.

Ray.


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## aldra

Well I’m not sure

We mostly shop for meat at Aldi

If we shop at Asda 

There is a halal meat area 

Fine that’s their religious belief 

But I strongly object to big companies stamping halal on foods that have no halal requirements

Coke a cola for example 

But then again , they are growing in numbers and therefore in strength 

They can call the shots 

They seem to have here in our junior schools 

And our senior schools are fast heading to halal meals 

To please everyone 

They don’t please me

I dont want my kids fed meat that’s bled to death

Either Kosher or Muslim 

Sandra


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## patp

Just Google "halal meat in our supermarkets?" and see what comes up.


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## aldra

Webby1 said:


> As I said many posts ago and in other threads please Aldra just give it a rest............you are the only person on this Forum who constantly and consistently posts this
> 
> kind of stuff. I think there were similar posts last Christmas...............I know first hand the pain and upset these kind of comments can create and what they can lead to
> 
> I don't want to stop your freedom of speech as @barryd said....................I have my freedom to speak as well I presume.
> 
> There is no thought police @rayrecrock..................it's just another "brigade" created to frighten people into towing the right wing agenda.
> 
> Finally it's not me keeping it going @JanHank...........................it's 8 pages in and it's still same old same old.
> 
> I just ask again that you stop at almost every opportunity having a go at Muslim people........................it just feeds the racists and bigots.
> 
> Even your latest thread "They've all gone now" I thought it might be about all the local Muslims moving out.
> 
> Why not enjoy your Christmas...........there may be odd Muslim individuals telling you to dumb it down............there may be odd PC folks telling you that Jesus has to be
> 
> black (now there's a thought) BUT there will always be individuals like this (and terrorists) it is NO EXCUSE to condemn a whole group of people.


Are you for real?

Sandra


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## Pudsey_Bear

I have to wonder where you actually live Webby, and if it is within a large muslim/asian community, because if it isn't it is you who is listening to the media, if you do then open your eyes and ears, take notice of how you are treated in shops etc.


I repeat I am not racist, but by heck they are.


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## Webby1

I have said before...............so listen up you two.............. I also live oop North in a two up two down surrounded by "them" 

Not down South and not in a middle class area, but it just doesn't bother me as much as it does some people on here. Rather I don't let it bother me.

Of course, there are some Asians who are pig ignorant,some abuse young girls and a few become terrorists......................guess what, I don't like that sort !!!

I only have time for the ones who, like me, are just trying to get along and enjoy life,family and friends and not trying to find a scapegoat for the things going wrong in 

their life. Have you looked round some of our estates recently at the state of some of the white underclass who live there (only some of course)

You have been relatively quiet on the issue since you managed to move out of the ghetto but what get's me is Aldra goes on and with the same old insults at almost 

every opportunity................................I owe it to family and friends to always speak out and defend them......................but I just wish she would give it a 

rest........just sometimes. 

Perhaps we could all prepare to enjoy Christmas rather then concentrating on how the Muslims and PC Brigade and Thought Police and Snowflakes have spoilt it !!!


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## Mrplodd

I have stayed out of this thread for long enough now. 

I have but one word to add to the debate.

Tolerance (from EVERYONE) 

Andy


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## Pudsey_Bear

I have loads of tolerance for "them" but it's a two way street, live and let live, but it seems some of "them" are not seeing it that way, I have noticed though that since moving to this town, they are different, very different, they smile at you, let you out of junctions, thank you when you do likewise, they seem much more relaxed, there seems to be less animosity, but they are in more of a minority here than in Bradford.


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## patp

It is those that choose to move away from living cheek by jowl with their fellow countryman that integrate much better. We don't have many immigrants at all in this area but those that we do are never covered up and will respond to smiles and are grateful for any help offered. I find it is just the language barrier that is a problem. Once that is overcome then everyone in this area gets on nicely together.
We could not, however, contemplate returning to where we were when we first married. We would be in the minority and it would feel very wrong to not be able to converse and interact with our neighbours as we do all the time here.


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## Webby1

Mrplodd said:


> I have stayed out of this thread for long enough now.
> 
> I have but one word to add to the debate.
> 
> Tolerance (from EVERYONE)
> 
> Andy


And that is TO everyone as well


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## aldra

Webby1 said:


> I have said before...............so listen up you two.............. I also live oop North in a two up two down surrounded by "them"
> 
> Not down South and not in a middle class area, but it just doesn't bother me as much as it does some people on here. Rather I don't let it bother me.
> 
> Of course, there are some Asians who are pig ignorant,some abuse young girls and a few become terrorists......................guess what, I don't like that sort !!!
> 
> I only have time for the ones who, like me, are just trying to get along and enjoy life,family and friends and not trying to find a scapegoat for the things going wrong in
> 
> their life. Have you looked round some of our estates recently at the state of some of the white underclass who live there (only some of course)
> 
> You have been relatively quiet on the issue since you managed to move out of the ghetto but what get's me is Aldra goes on and with the same old insults at almost
> 
> every opportunity................................I owe it to family and friends to always speak out and defend them......................but I just wish she would give it a
> 
> rest........just sometimes.
> 
> Perhaps we could all prepare to enjoy Christmas rather then concentrating on how the Muslims and PC Brigade and Thought Police and Snowflakes have spoilt it !!!


You are obsessed with me bouncing bunny

I'm not insulting anyone

I'm concerned at the rapid growth of Muslims in this area

So what , I'm concerned

I'm concerned it will alter our way of life, not mine because clearly mine isnt going to last much longer

But others, it's not multicultural , it's becoming uni cultural in some ever increasing areas

No call me old fashioned but this is Britain

And all are welcome to integrate, add their culture to ours

Not exclude us in favour of theirs

And for those that do

Go back to where your culture,?sharia law ect remains predominant

And live your religion fully

If not then don't attempt to change our country

And Webby I've told you over and over again

You ain't going to like me, you ain't going to change me

You ain't going to believe I know much about the Koran

You don't believe I lived side by side with Muslims in another country

And you won't accept I really don't care what you think

Ps I have never insulted your daughter in law

So what do you gain by constantly challenging and misrepresenting me

Make your own points

Explain why you are sure the rise of the Muslim faith is good for Britain , for Europe, for Sweden or really for anyone

Make your point don't hide behind leftist views

Hug a tree

Aldra


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## Webby1

Oh I believe that you know a lot about the Koran and I suspect that your time in Israel taught you a lot about the threat Islam poses to the world.

I don't want to change what you think...........I don't want you to stop..................how could I hope to change either of those things.

I don't believe that the "rise of the Muslim faith " is necessarily a good thing for Britain.

All I ask is that you take a rest from going on and on about the same thing, time after time...........and every Christmas.

I have explained why I will challenge the stuff that you post...................all I ask again is that you give it a rest..................then I can have a rest and we can all have a rest and get on with that wonderful festival of Christmas.

Can we agree to stop all this posting.....................I'd very much like to do that


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## barryd

You could always ignore the thread Webby. Its a community here. People discuss what they like with friends that they have known for years. Nobody is getting abusive or offensive. Just views. Trying to shut people down because you dont like what they have to say is never a good thing IMO.


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## Pudsey_Bear

Liz and I went down into town yesterday, I've lived and worked over here since the the mid 70s so know the are quite well, I moved to Leeds to be with Liz in 2007/8, so it's nice for me to be back over this way.

So local experiences with the local muslims yesterday, we went to a Kitchen/bathroom shop nowhere to park really, but this asian chap mid 20s said hang on a few minutes and I'll move so you can park here, a few minutes later we were parked up, we had to help each other as it was a tight junction with little room for either of us to make space for the other to move, not something which would have happened in Leeds Pudsey or Bradford in my experience.

Keighley is different for some reason, Bradford asians tend to come from Kashmir and are noted for being unfriendly, a lot of them live in Pudsey, as for Leeds, not sure where they emanate from, they seem less tribal, but can still be aggressive, here they seem to be much more friendly, not had too much to do with them so far, but the signs are more positive, I didn't really want to live in this town as it does have a high asian population, but so far so good, we met a few other asian folk yesterday, and all were pleasant polite and smiley, very few burkas too.


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## Webby1

barryd said:


> You could always ignore the thread Webby. Its a community here. People discuss what they like with friends that they have known for years. Nobody is getting abusive or offensive. Just views. Trying to shut people down because you dont like what they have to say is never a good thing IMO.


I value your opinion Barry (especially on the Brexit thread) and I know you have a lot of time for Aldra.

But to repeat, I do not want to shut anyone down,there are plenty of people on here who express very similar views. But Aldra is the only one who constantly and consistently goes on with the same old stuff about Muslims.....................yes ignore this thread and another one pops up.

As I have said, I believe that it is the regular the drip feed of certain views on social media that can be dangerous, especially when apparently backed up with "research and academic knowledge" just like over Brexit. Had there been social media in the 30's I believe this is exactly what would have happened substituting Jews for Muslims.


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## HermanHymer

Funny I keep seeing your threads punting the same old views, Webby.


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## aldra

Webby, youre guessing

Not good to guess what I experienced in Israel 

You could of course ask 

Israel had no bearing on my life here

I was a guest of the Jews and the Arabs

What I learnt was nothing like you think 

But yes 

Christmas blessings 

I am in love with my God 

I hope Jesus is his son 

But I’m not completely sure 

I’m sure that there is God, a God that I’ve had the privalige to delight in 

Who took me on a difficult journey, across lands I never knew existed , sustained me throughout 

But Who as yet hasn’t answered all my questions 

But hey I am a child of God so I’m entitled to keep asking 

Have a lovely Christmas 

And I will set up my crib , and my grandkids will move the shepherds, the oxen, sheep and donkey 

As they’ve always done 

And on Christmas morning I’ll put the baby in the crib 

And wonder 

Sandra


----------



## aldra

No that’s wrong

Israel had every bearing on my life 

Not a bearing I could easily articulate

From travelling 6 months carrying twins, to pulling water from a well to wash clothes ,

From owning nothing 

To owning everything I want 

And I’d love to say I don’t need anything

But my home says I do

But once upon a time I gave up everything to make a journey , and I mean everything

The call was strong 

So I guess if the call was strong again 

I’d give it all up again 

Who knows 

Sandra


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## peribro

I think this thread is in Off Topic which is not where it should be IMHO so I'm going to report my post and suggest it's moved to the Subs Lounge.

So saying, I've only just skimmed through it and what's all the stuff Webby about Christmas? You mentioned it several times but you obviously know that that Christmas is a Christian festival and not a Jewish or Muslim one. Accident or otherwise?


----------



## dghr272

peribro said:


> I think this thread is in Off Topic which is not where it should be IMHO so I'm going to report my post and suggest it's moved to the Subs Lounge.
> 
> So saying, I've only just skimmed through it and what's all the stuff Webby about Christmas? You mentioned it several times but you obviously know that that Christmas is a Christian festival and not a Jewish or Muslim one. Accident or otherwise?


You really did skim read it, the very first post set the tone and it wasn't Webby's !

Terry


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## peribro

dghr272 said:


> You really did skim read it, the very first post set the tone and it wasn't Webby's !


Nope. It's totally escaped me - and as always I'm happy to be corrected.:smile2:


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## Webby1

Oh Aldra you just don't understand how much I admire the journey you have taken through life......................the undoubted difficulties to travel to Israel all those years ago .............to build a home and a family from a difficult start in a childrens home. All worthy of respect..............now the Big But

I think many of us have concerns about similar issues.................I don't like to see young girls fully covered or those in the shops who have not even learnt to say please and thank you etc etc...................but I believe they will ALWAYS be a minority and I know in my own area how so many of the young people want to integrate and move away from looking backwards..............the question is whether they'll be encouraged to do so.......... or put in the Muslims diluting my culture place where you would put them (oh no not those ones I hear you say.........................then don't just lump all Muslims together is all I ask.......as I have many times before.You have influence on other peoples thinking...............not only your children and grandchildren ............but your friends on here......................I 

There are no wood burning stoves in our street but I would rather live here than in some of the "all white and keeping British Culture alive" estates in the area. 

Why not focus on your family and the good things in your life rather than obsessing with Islam.......................you may have negative views as I sure many on here do......................but you are the only one who goes on and on.........even starting threads like this one having a go at " have you heard what Muslims are doing now" and of course that stirs up the clique,or is it a brigade,or just your friends on here.

No one is telling you to dumb down Christmas or eat Halal meat or let your children "marry one"............or that baby Jesus has to be mixed race...................although I am sure the 3 kings might have been a bit gay (frankinsense and myrrh ????) I am sure someone will now come along with a link about making the Christmas Play more inclusive.....................like the EU wanted to impose straight bananas ?????

I have explained why I have to speak out but I am sure we and others need a rest for a while............at least until 2019


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## aldra

I don’t think I am obsessed with Islam

Any more than I am with Judaism , with Buddhism or Christianity for that matter 

Politically I am interested in Islam on a world wide basis ,historically I’m interested in Islam 

You have much more to say about what you think I think or said than I do 

I started the thread with the celebrations of Mohammad’s birthday and linked it to the celebration of Christs birthday 

Never did I suggest either birthday should be suppressed 

Around here the lit signs proclaiming Mohammad’s birth will appear in many window at Christmas 

But I guess some people will keep their Christmas decorations up till well past Christmas too 

You have no idea about my families attitude to multiculturalism , although you did comment on what you thought it was, quite wrongly as it happens 

It’s unlikely Christ would have been mixed race, it’s also unlikely he would have been white ,blue eyed ,
Blond haired either

I think you’ll find that frankincense and myrrh, have symbolic, mystical meanings which is why they are included in the Christmas story 

I don’t think the Muslims are diluting my culture where I live , they are the predominant culture in this area

As for always being a minority, well that’s easier to ascertain , look at birth rates of populations projected forward , in multiculturalism, balance is the key 

Have a very happy Christmas 

Aldra


----------

