# V5C and MOT



## sallytrafic

My V5C is two weeks old with an amendment date for the form of 5/06 and has the following relevant info: 

D.3 Body Type MOTOR CARAVAN 
X Taxation Class PRIVATE/LIGHT GOODS PLG 
Y Revenue Weight 3015 KG GROSS

The reason that I have a new V5 is that my converters registered it as a panel van. I requested a new one and queried whether as a Motor Caravan the Revenue weight was a valid statement. They didn't answer just issued a new one as discribed. My MAM is 3015kG.

My reasons for continuing to query this is that the person who had one of the first Trafic high tops and had it converted has just had it through its first MOT.

this is what he said to me:

"Our van is now 3 years old and needed its first MOT yesterday. Our not so local Renault garage could not accommodate our vehicle on their MOT ramp due to the height of the van. I was however able to book it into an independent MOT examiner. Upon arrival at the testing station I was turned away because they are only registered for class 4 vehicles. This means they can only take vehicles up to a maximum of 3000 Kg Gross revenue weight. Our Renault's are 3015 Kg which puts them into the class 7 category. I was fortunate to be able to find a class 7 testing station with a spare slot yesterday afternoon. It passed without any problem."

Now I know that this is a nonsense but wanted to get it sorted now not when trying to get it MOT'd in a year or so. Perhaps Geo could comment?

Regards frank


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## Don_Madge

This an article from www.ukmotorhomes.net

MOTs for motorhomes 
There is sometimes confusion, even within the MOT trade, over the type of MOT test that motorhomes are subject to. Motorhomes are registered with the body type 'motor caravan', in the past this description was applied quite loosely but recently the DVLA and VOSA have been more rigid in aplying the regulations. In fact anyone registering a change of vehicle type after carrying out a conversion, or registering an imported motorhome, is likely to be required to have the vehicle checked at a VOSA Testing Station before DVLA will issue a new registration document.

We asked VOSA about the regulations that apply to motorhomes, as far as the MOT test is concerned. This is their reply:

"A 'motor caravan' is "a motor vehicle (not being a living van) which is 
constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and 
which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which 
are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living 
accommodation for its users". Motor caravans are not classed as goods 
vehicles for MOT test purposes and are therefore in class IV or V depending 
on their seating capacity but regardless of their size or weight.

A 'living van' is "a vehicle, whether mechanically propelled or not, which 
is used for living accommodation by one or more persons and which is also 
used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one 
or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle". 'Living 
vans' are classed as goods vehicles and, depending on their weight, are 
therefore in either class IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or are 
subject to HGV plating and testing.

A 'living van' up to 3000kg dgw (Design Gross Weight) would require a class IV 
test, and the first MOT would be due on the third anniversary of first 
registration.

'Living vans' over 3000kg and up to 3500kg dgw require a class 
VII test and would require an MOT when the vehicle is 1 year old.

If the 'living van' is over this weight then it would be a HGV MOT test that the 
vehicle would require and this also would be due when the vehicle is 1 year 
old. "

We are currently in discussion with VOSA, over their definition of 'living van' and the phrase: 
"... used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle."

When we asked about carrying a small car or motor cycle in a motorhome we had this reply:

"A small car or motorcycle would be classed as goods as it is not needed by 
such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence. When it 
states "for the purpose of their residence" it refers more to things that 
are necessary for the vehicle to be lived in, e.g, cooker, refridgerator, 
beds, etc."

So currently it seems that a motorhome adapted to carry a motorbike or scooter could be classed as a 'living van'. If so it would be regarded as a goods vehicle and, if over 3000kg GVW, be subject to a Class VII MOT test EVERY YEAR FROM NEW. If over 3500kg GVW it would be subject to a HGV MOT test EVERY YEAR FROM NEW.

We regard this as patently ridiculous and are in continuing discussion with VOSA. In particular we have asked where the line is drawn between possessions that may be carried for this purpose, and those that VOSA deems to be 'goods'. One assumes that a motorhome owner may carry some personal possessions 'for the purpose of their residence', eg clothes and food!

Watch this space


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## sallytrafic

WOW what a mess!

look like they treated my friends van as a living van.

Its just as much a motor caravan as mine is and in a converted panel van what goods could I transport?

Regards Frank


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## 97993

Well Frank as always the MOT tester will be the very last to find out about new (if thats what they are) rules, up until reading Dons post (i have not looked at his link yet) I would have said your vehicle was a class 4 test, I will contact Vosa To morrow, to try and clarify, We as Testers Talk to a different section of VOSA than do the general public i think, so hopefully my answer should be just as confusing if not more so, :roll: 
Geo
EDIT---Having considered the context of the article IMO these new descriptions are more than likely aimed at race support vehicles rather than Motor homes as we know them, The rather confusing title of Living Van has been allocated to this type of vehicle and can only add to the confusion,
unless there is now an attempt to regulate MH,s more strictly (and this may be the case) the status quo should remain and "Proper"M/h's will remain class 4, lets wait and see !!!


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## sallytrafic

Thanks Don and Geo (thanks for pm as well) In the meantime I think I will write to DVLA enclosing my V5 and ask about the inclusion of the revenue weight which seems to erroneously trigger the class 7 MOT. 

Regards Frank


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## 97993

Well we live and learn as they say, it would appear your friends van was correctly treated as a living van,if indeed it has the space to carry a load,
it would seem after talking to VOSA that the interpretaion of these regs are open to debate, its seems these are not new rules , just overlooked rules for want of a better description, and they were it appears written to control converted pannel vans and buses as i hinted at in my previous post
and unfortunately due to "normal" MHs now being made with bigger payloads and under bed garages at the rear, more and more are going to fall into the Living Van category, ie over 3000 GVDW and capable of carrying goods, and yes your Motorbike is goods.
Vosa will have to clear this situation up, I fear they will make all Mhs class 7 this being the easy way out
Geo


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## sallytrafic

Geo said:


> Well we live and learn as they say, it would appear your friends van was correctly treated as a living van,if indeed it has the space to carry a load, it would seem after talking to VOSA that the interpretaion of these regs are open to debate, its seems these are not new rules , just overlooked rules for want of a better description, and they were it appears written to control converted pannel vans and buses as i hinted at in my previous post and unfortunately due to "normal" MHs now being made with bigger payloads and under bed garages at the rear, more and more are going to fall into the Living Van category, ie over 3000 GVDW and capable of carrying goods, and yes your Motorbike is goods.
> Vosa will have to clear this situation up, I fear they will make all Mhs class 7 this being the easy way out
> Geo


Thanks for that Geo.

Does it mean tachographs? and MOTs in year 1 not 3? By the way if anything there is less room in my friends wagon than in mine as it has three berths.

Regards Frank

PS What does GWDW mean?


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## sallytrafic

In connection with all the above I have sent the following letter to DVLA. Click on the attachment to read at full size.

Regards Frank


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## 97993

Hi again frank I think we are talking at cross purposes here, if your vehicle has no room for a load IE rear garage it falls into the normal M/H section, as does your friends if he also has no garage/storage (other than normal cupboards etc),
the likes of Hymer and other big a class ,by virtue of the large rear storage room (under bed accesable from outside) are very much Living vans acording to VOSA , but by the sounds of it your letter will meet with some confusion
By GWDW did you mean GVDW (Gross vehicle design weight)
Geo


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## ingram

I have experienced of a situation where the MOT tester insisted that my 'Motor Caravan' required a class 7 MOT "because of the plated weight. See? 3500kg."
The man is an idiot. It plainly states on VOSA's documentation, the one which is and must be, displayed at every testing station, that a 'Motor Caravan' is class 4. It makes no reference to the gross weight.

I had been sent to this particular 'class 7 capable' MOT station because my local station could not fit my 'van on their ramp. The 'van was too long.

The 'idiot' used all sorts of arguments to show that he was right, including that "If it wouldn't fit on the class 4 test station's lift, it must be a class 7."

He also tried to claim that the fact that it was a motor caravan was not relevant ,because of the 3500kg weight making it come under the category of commercial vehicle. Nonsense!

So you see what you may be up against.

Just because your van does not fit on a normal class 4 test station ramp/lift, because of restricted height, or the lift will not take the weight, or is not long enough, does not mean that the 'van is not a class 4. It is.

I doubt that Frank's friend's 'van was being treated as a 'living van' by the MOT tester: more likely another case of a similar experience to mine as above.

Harvey


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## Don_Madge

Don Madge said:


> This an article from www.ukmotorhomes.net
> 
> MOTs for motorhomes
> There is sometimes confusion, even within the MOT trade, over the type of MOT test that motorhomes are subject to. Motorhomes are registered with the body type 'motor caravan', in the past this description was applied quite loosely but recently the DVLA and VOSA have been more rigid in aplying the regulations. In fact anyone registering a change of vehicle type after carrying out a conversion, or registering an imported motorhome, is likely to be required to have the vehicle checked at a VOSA Testing Station before DVLA will issue a new registration document.
> 
> We asked VOSA about the regulations that apply to motorhomes, as far as the MOT test is concerned. This is their reply:
> 
> "A 'motor caravan' is "a motor vehicle (not being a living van) which is
> constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and
> which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which
> are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living
> accommodation for its users". Motor caravans are not classed as goods
> vehicles for MOT test purposes and are therefore in class IV or V depending
> on their seating capacity but regardless of their size or weight.
> 
> A 'living van' is "a vehicle, whether mechanically propelled or not, which
> is used for living accommodation by one or more persons and which is also
> used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one
> or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle". 'Living
> vans' are classed as goods vehicles and, depending on their weight, are
> therefore in either class IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or are
> subject to HGV plating and testing.
> 
> A 'living van' up to 3000kg dgw (Design Gross Weight) would require a class IV
> test, and the first MOT would be due on the third anniversary of first
> registration.
> 
> 'Living vans' over 3000kg and up to 3500kg dgw require a class
> VII test and would require an MOT when the vehicle is 1 year old.
> 
> If the 'living van' is over this weight then it would be a HGV MOT test that the
> vehicle would require and this also would be due when the vehicle is 1 year
> old. "
> 
> We are currently in discussion with VOSA, over their definition of 'living van' and the phrase:
> "... used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle."
> 
> When we asked about carrying a small car or motor cycle in a motorhome we had this reply:
> 
> "A small car or motorcycle would be classed as goods as it is not needed by
> such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence. When it
> states "for the purpose of their residence" it refers more to things that
> are necessary for the vehicle to be lived in, e.g, cooker, refridgerator,
> beds, etc."
> 
> So currently it seems that a motorhome adapted to carry a motorbike or scooter could be classed as a 'living van'. If so it would be regarded as a goods vehicle and, if over 3000kg GVW, be subject to a Class VII MOT test EVERY YEAR FROM NEW. If over 3500kg GVW it would be subject to a HGV MOT test EVERY YEAR FROM NEW.
> 
> We regard this as patently ridiculous and are in continuing discussion with VOSA. In particular we have asked where the line is drawn between possessions that may be carried for this purpose, and those that VOSA deems to be 'goods'. One assumes that a motorhome owner may carry some personal possessions 'for the purpose of their residence', eg clothes and food!
> 
> Watch this space


This is an update from www.ukmotorhomes.net

This is an update from VOSA, it's even more confusing now.
VOSA replied as follows:

"LIVING VANS

I refer to your follow-up e-mail message of 18th October to colleagues in the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) which has been forwarded to me at the Department for Transport as we have responsibility for the legislation governing roadworthiness testing.

First of all, I should mention that there was a slight error in the second message that you received from the enquiry team at VOSA. To clarify, vehicles which require a class VII MOT test (goods vehicles between 3000 and 3500kgs design gross weight (DGW)) are only required to undergo a first MOT three years after the vehicle was first registered and not from the first year following registration as stated in the e-mails from VOSA. I'm sorry if this has caused confusion.

To clarify further, I can confirm that all living vans are regarded as goods vehicles. This is because such vehicles are used primarily for living accommodation but are also able to carry goods which are not needed for the purpose of residence in the vehicle. Section 192 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 defines 'goods' as 'goods or burden of any description'. As such, 'goods' is not a term restricted solely to items carried for gain or reward. It is our view, therefore, that bikes or cars carried in a designated area on a vehicle should be regarded as goods and that vehicles which have the capacity to carry such items within them have to be regarded as living vans and not motor caravans.

Smaller living vans (under 3,500kgs) can be MOT tested as Class IV or Class VII vehicles depending on their weight. The first MOT test would be required from the third year following registration and then every year thereafter. However, many living vans are outside the scope of MOT testing as they exceed 3,500kgs in weight. These heavier living vans should be tested at a VOSA goods vehicle testing station under the Goods Vehicles (Plating and Testing) Regulations 1988. Such vehicles must be tested annually from the first year following registration.

I hope this clarifies the position. "

Well, it doesn't clarify the position at all and we have asked a series of further questions, in particular concerning the properties of a 'designated area' which determine whether the motorhome is classed as a 'living van' or not.


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## Don_Madge

Geo,

Is there any difference between a class 4 mot and a class 7 mot.  

If there isn't what's all the fuss about if the vehicle is over three years old.

Don


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## ingram

Don Madge said:


> Geo,
> 
> Is there any difference between a class 4 mot and a class 7 mot.
> 
> Don


Yes there is,

Harvey


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## sallytrafic

The MOT station concerned got it off the screen that it was a panel van with a revenue weight of 3015 kG (same as mine was originally). As it was the first LWB hitop brought into the country as far as he knows (he badgered Renault for delivery whilst Renault UK denied all knowledge of the vehicle) and went straight to the converters it is likely that his van was the first of this type to go through MOT. The tester said revenue weight 3015, its not a class 4 and we can only do class 4's. 

Regards Frank


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## 97993

> Is there any difference between a class 4 mot and a class 7 mot.


Yes Don but nothing sinister, one of the main differences is the tyres checks are made to check if the load rating and type are suitible,


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## Don_Madge

Geo said:


> Is there any difference between a class 4 mot and a class 7 mot.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes Don but nothing sinister, one of the main differences is the tyres checks are made to check if the load rating and type are suitible,
Click to expand...

Thanks Geo I thought it was something horrendous. 8O

My Timberland goes in next week for it's 2nd MOT, the Fiat dealer does the servicing and takes it to the testing station as they can't manage it on their ramps or what ever there called.

Regards

Don


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## 97993

> The MOT station concerned got it off the screen that it was a panel van


They were wrong,
In such instances were the screen is telling you one thing and your eyes/brain tells you another Ie your M/H comes up as a motorbike or panel van, when it is clearly a M/H I have the capability to change the records and put it right ,why they did not do that God only knows
there are many ways to play the system, if you are adamant you want a class four test , take your scooter out of the garage (for the test) and fit a fridge freezer in there(must be plugged in and working) ergo no longer for goods just every day living equipment for the use of one or more ocuppants,
this is no different to failing an MOT on a cut seatbelt and removing the seat for the re test therefore no seat means its not a seatbelt any more
ps I don't write the rules I just play with them


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## ingram

Just to go back to Frank's first post:- It is important that your motorcaravan is registered as such and not as a 'panel van' ( or whatever the correct term is ).

If a tester is presented with a vehicle registered as a panel van I think he would be correct to insist on testing it as such, so you were correct, Frank to get your's changed and it was very poor of the convertor not to do so.

Mine of course *is* correctly registered although it didn't seem to help *my* tester much!  

H


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## gaspode

Hi Ingram

I don't think you're quite getting the gist of what Geo is saying.

As Geo says, all MOT testers have the ability to alter the description of the vehicle which the system brings up on screen when they log the registration number in for an MOT test. I've seen this many times recently as the new computerised system was being introduced where a car would be entered into the system with an incorrect colour, body style or model. I had the problem when I took my old Triumph Roadster in for its first computerised MOT, the system had no suitable category for it and listed it as the wrong model and body style - so the tester simply altered it to the most appropriate description available on the system. Unfortunately some testers can be pedantic and the best plan in that instance is to take your business elsewhere.


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## 97993

> If a tester is presented with a vehicle registered as a panel van I think he would be correct to insist on testing it as such


Sorry H
He would be totaly and utterly wrong, taking that stament to its limit what would you say if your Mh came up as a 3 wheeler, and I said sorry mate I use a Pit and 3 wheelers fall down em, :lol: cant do it!!!!,
As ken said above I would correct the record and proceed 
Geo


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## sallytrafic

Is there any difference in cost betweena class 4 and 7 MOT?

Regards Frank


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## 97993

Full Fees
Class. 4 £50.35 Class. 7 £53.80
Many class 4 test centres discount that fee by sometimes 50%
class 7 not many discounts around
Partial retest avialable at around £20.00


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## ingram

Gaspode and George,

I didn't misunderstand what George said at all Gaspode. I understood perfectly: actually I wasn't replying directly to his his post but referring to Frank's original point that his 'Motorcaravan' was not registered as such and that he has had it changed; and George, you misunderstood me.

When I said "If a tester is presented with a vehicle registered as a panel van I think he would be correct to insist on testing it as such." I was referring to the V5 registration document, not to what may 'come up' incorrectly on the computer. The V5 is the official document that shows the relevant information about the vehicle, so surely it must be taken notice of.

If I presented you with a Ford Transit with no windows, a bed, a small water storage tank and a washing up bowl, registered on it's V5 as a van, but told you that it was a motorcaravan, what would you test it as?

Harvey ( we are getting away from answering Frank's question perhaps  )


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## sallytrafic

ingram said:


> Gaspode and George,
> 
> I didn't misunderstand what George said at all Gaspode. I understood perfectly: actually I wasn't replying directly to his his post but referring to Frank's original point that his 'Motorcaravan' was not registered as such and that he has had it changed; and George, you misunderstood me.
> 
> When I said "If a tester is presented with a vehicle registered as a panel van I think he would be correct to insist on testing it as such." I was referring to the V5 registration document, not to what may 'come up' incorrectly on the computer. The V5 is the official document that shows the relevant information about the vehicle, so surely it must be taken notice of.
> 
> If I presented you with a Ford Transit with no windows, a bed, a small water storage tank and a washing up bowl, registered on it's V5 as a van, but told you that it was a motorcaravan, what would you test it as?
> 
> Harvey ( we are getting away from answering Frank's question perhaps  )


Now I don't understand - does the MOT tester get to see your V5 these days - (its a while since I had a vehicle MOT'd)

Frank


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## ingram

[quote="sallytrafic
Now I don't understand - does the MOT tester get to see your V5 these days - (its a while since I had a vehicle MOT'd)

Frank[/quote]

He does if you show it to him Frank; and if you do, and it says your vehicle is a MotorCaravan, it will theoretically prevent him from claiming that it is a class 7 although that is only a thoery and doesn't seem always to work in practice. 

I don't believe that there is any requirement to present the V5 at MOT time, maybe there should be. I always take mine anyway and if you think that there may be any misunderstanding about the class of your vehicle, it may be a good thing to do.

Harvey


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## 97993

> If I presented you with a Ford Transit with no windows, a bed, a small water storage tank and a washing up bowl, registered on it's V5 as a van, but told you that it was a motorcaravan, what would you test it as?


 and if the V5 said Motor Bike then it must be a motor bike?????
Sorry again Mate , we are instructed to test what we *SEE.* no amount of paperwork would convince me i was looking at something else,
Just in case yo think I have avoided your question if the Transit was fully fitted out with Fixed living equipment and no room for goods Answer a Motor Caravan, we are at times allowed a certain amount of discretion and usually common sense prevails, if in doubt cover your a**e becaue Vosa wont thank you if you get it wrong
Geo


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