# Impending New Seat Belt Law for habitation area?



## LondonMotorhomeHire (Jan 20, 2008)

Please folks, before I ask away, can we not get into a moral debate on people sitting on seats without seatbelts while in motion; but rather stick to the law.

While at the NEC on Tuesday I spoke with one of the major manufacturers technical advisors about general issues. The topic of the new seat belt law came up.
He was adamant that the law coming into effect May 2009 could not and would not be retrospective; saying that an existing 5 berth MH with 3 passenger belts could still carry the 5th person if that person chose to travel without a seat belt. This also applied to side-facing seats.
Consider side facing seats on a bus.....we all willingly sit there.
The law would apply to new vans registered after that date.

Does anyone know, with authority, if this is the case please?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Owners of any motorhome that has belts fitted to any seat in the rear will need to be aware that, from May 2009, it will be illegal to carry passengers in any unbelted seats. 

Dave


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

DABurleigh said:


> Owners of any motorhome that has belts fitted to any seat in the rear will need to be aware that, from May 2009, it will be illegal to carry passengers in any unbelted seats.


And, by inference, if there's no seat belts, it doesn't mean you can't carry passengers, but I would wonder at the wisdom of carrying unbelted passengers in the back of a motorhome.

Chapter and verse (specifically pertaining to children) :: HERE ::

Gerald


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

You should be like me, Gerald, and not go off topic


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

> You should be like me, Gerald, and not go off topic
> 
> 
> > What we need Dave is a moderator 8O


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

nuke can't get the staff nowadays 

(quite topical actually ....)


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

tug66 said:


> Please folks, before I ask away, can we not get into a moral debate on people sitting on seats without seatbelts while in motion; but rather stick to the law.


You'll need a wall to bang your head on in less than 30 minutes ............. see?

Harvey


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## LondonMotorhomeHire (Jan 20, 2008)

Dave,

Where do you get your information from?

'Everyone' is saying what you've said, but is it 100% accurate.

I cannot understand a manufacturer's representative saying otherwise if he wasn't certain.


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## kayg (Aug 20, 2007)

I spoke to someone from Chausson on Wednesday, he said the law only applies to models made after 2007 :?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Um, my post explicitly *disagreed* with your interpretation of what the manufacturer's rep said.

Anyway, to answer your question:
EU Directive (2005/40/EC)
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2005:255:0146:0148:EN:PDF
(good luck ....)

But more helpfully:
http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/faqs.shtml#seatbelts

Dave


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

> I cannot understand a manufacturer's representative saying otherwise if he wasn't certain.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 
As in "no sir, Fiats do not leak nor do any of them judder"!


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

Equally important, most insurance companies will not cover any passengers not using designated passenger seats.
Gerry


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

*Response*

Here is a document from the Motorhome Information Services. We have their permission to put it on here.

Regards
Kath


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## colonel (Oct 11, 2008)

Doesn't say much Kath does it


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## icer (Dec 11, 2006)

I think this is the one Kath means 




MOTORHOMES AND THE LAW
MOTs

Motorhomes are subject to MOT tests from the end of the third year after first registration as for cars and are subject to the same test ie a class IV test.
Seat belts in motorhomes

There have been a number of changes to the laws relating to the fitting and using seatbelts in motorhomes.

Seat belts have been fitted to the front seats of motorhomes since seatbelts were first introduced and it is mandatory to wear them.

In addition, motorhomes first registered on or after October 20th 2007 must have seat belts for forward and rearward facing seats in the rear. These seats must be designated as travelling seats and have a badge stating this. In a vehicle manufactured after this date, if a seat is not badged for travel you should not use it.

Many motorhomes registered before that date have seat belts fitted, Wherever these are fitted, they should be worn; this has been mandatory since April 2006.

EC Directive 2005/39/EC also states that travel in sideways facing seats with a seat belt is unsafe and that from October 20th 2007, it will not be possible to travel in them in new motorhomes.

This legislation is not retrospective so vehicles registered before 20th October 2007, do not have to have seat belts fitted in the rear.

Please note that the Department of Transport also point out that Regulation 100(1) of the Road Vehicles Construction and Use Regulations 1986 and Section 40A of the Road Traffic Act 1988 state that : "A person is guilty of an offence if he uses, or causes or permits another to use a motor vehicle or trailer on a road when
a) the condition of the motor vehicle or trailer or of its accessories or equipment or
b) the purpose for which it is used, or
c) the number of passengers carried by it or the manner in which they are carried or
d) the weight, position or distribution of its load or the manner in which it is secures, is such that the use of the motor vehicle or trailer involves a danger of injury to any person."

The Department for Transport has published this table to summarise the present requirements.

Front Seat Rear Seat Who is Responsible
Driver Seat belt must be worn if fitted Driver
Child under 3 years of age Correct child restraint must be used Correct child restraint must be used. If one is not available in a taxi, may travel unrestrained Driver
Child from 3rd birthday up to 135cms in height (or 12th birthday whichever they reach first) Correct child restraint must be used Correct child restraint must be used where seat belts fitted. Must use adult belt in a rear seat if correct child restraint not available
- in a taxi;
- for a short distance in an unexpected necessity;
- if two occupied child restraints prevent fitting a third Driver
Child 12 or 13 , or over 135cms in height Seat belt must be worn if fitted Seat belt must be worn if fitted Driver
Adult passengers Seat belt must be worn if fitted Seat belt must be worn if fitted Passenger

Source: Department for Transport

Children under 3 years MUST use the child restraint appropriate for their weight in any vehicle (including vans and goods vehicles).

Rear-facing baby seats MUST NOT be used in a seat protected by a frontal air-bag unless the air-bag has been deactivated manually or automatically.

In vehicles where seat belts are fitted, children 3 years to 135cms in height (approx 4ft 5ins) MUST use the appropriate child restraint.

Two exceptions allow children 3 years to 135 cms in height to travel in the rear of a motor home and use an adult belt but only for a short distance in unexpected necessity:

* If the right child restraint is not available; or
* where two occupied child seats in the rear prevent the fitment of a third child seat. 

Medical exemptions:

Certain medical conditions may allow you an exemption from seat belt wearing. You should consult your doctor if you think you should not wear a seat belt on medical grounds.


This information is provided by the Motorhome Information as a guide only. Every effort has been made to ensure that the information is correct but this guide must not be construed as legal advice. Your motorhome retailer or manufacturer will be pleased to advise on your vehicle.
Go Back



icer


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## AberdeenAngus (Jul 26, 2008)

Regardless of the law - if there is a seat belt - use it !

I had a go in a device in which you sat unrestrained and it stopped dead from only 5 mph. You were challenged to stop yourself from hurtling forward.....impossible.
Luckily, in this mock up there was only foam rubber to stop you not a windscreen/bulkhead/back of the drivers head !

I still see people driving their cars with unrestrained kids in the back. But they're wearing THEIR OWN seat belts........good parenting ! 

There may be a lot of things we do in this world for a quite life but sacrificing the kids shouldn't be one of them.


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## Nethernut (Jun 4, 2008)

We are looking at changing from tugging to a motorhome. Biggest problem for us is that so many of the UK manufactured motorhomes only seem to have one designated passenger seat even though they are "4 berth". We need 3 passenger seats and want a low profile 4 berth, oh and 3500 kg or under. We would have liked to buy British (have been customers of Swift for more years than I can remember) but it looks as if the only suitable layout we can find is in continental manufactured vans. Perhaps this will prompt UK manufacturers to put more "proper" passenger seats in.
Jan


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

*Reply*

Thanks Icer - it is the very document.

I have had another go at attaching the document but there is something the system does not like. the computer says no.

Regards
Kath


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Hi all,

I'm sure I read recently that a new law is coming next year that states that where a motorhome has seat belts fitted to seats behind the driver/front seat passenger, then only they may be used when travelling. ie my van has two rear seats with belts, and a third side facing seat without a belt, so I can only carry two passengers in the back from next year.

David


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

People might like the link:
http://www.motorhomeinfo.co.uk/Motorhomes_and_the_Law/mots.xalter

I note it says nothing with regard to the situation from next May.

Dave


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

From theaa.com (www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/child_safety/seatbelts.html)

"From May 2009, where seat belts are provided, the number of people carried in the rear of vehicles may not exceed the number of seats available fitted with seat belts or child restraints."

It appears that this will apply to all vehicles fitted with rear seat belts.

David


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Yes, thank you David, that's what I said in the first answer to the thread question. The point in my last post was the implicit one that the website paid for by the Motorhome Section of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders was rather lacking in this regard and in the absence of this information, merely refers buyers to retailers and manufacturers. 

Dave


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Sorry Dave, I tend to read threads from the last post forward, and often don't get to the start! 

I think that this is an issue that needs to be publicised more as it will affect lots of motorhome users when it comes into force.

David


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"this is an issue that needs to be publicised more "

Fortunately MHF members are privileged in that they merely need to ask a well defined question in context, and an impartial, informed answer will appear by magic.

Dave


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## AberdeenAngus (Jul 26, 2008)

b16duv said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm sure I read recently that a new law is coming next year that states that where a motorhome has seat belts fitted to seats behind the driver/front seat passenger, then only they may be used when travelling. ie my van has two rear seats with belts, and a third side facing seat without a belt, so I can only carry two passengers in the back from next year.
> 
> David


The only difference is that from next year you may get a ticket. So the actual risk has only gone up (proportionately) by a tiny amount compared to the risk of an unrestrained passenger.


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Fully agree with you AberdeenAngus, whilst I have an additional rear seat it's side facing and isn't comfy to travel in anyway, but the danger of an unrestrained passenger is clearly significant.

I think that there is the potential for many people with bigger vans and several rear seats, to be caught out by the new laws next year.

David


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## rumik (Aug 19, 2007)

I've read the posts in this thread and still find the law a little unclear. I understand that if there is a seat belt fitted then it must be worn but the situation with travelling in seats that are not fitted with a seat belt is not clear to me, mainly because of the paragraph quoted from the EU directive.

I have a 2-berth van registered Feb 2008 with two rear, side facing bench seats that are not fitted with seat belts.

Can I legally carry passengers (whilst the van is in motion) sitting on these side facing seats:
a) Now 
b) After May 2009

Please note that I am well aware that it is not safe to carry people in this manner, I am simply seeking clarification of the law.


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## AberdeenAngus (Jul 26, 2008)

In the UK the law is set by the legislature but is interpreted by the courts.
You cannot be sure of the way a law is going to work until its been tested a few times and a body of "case law" has built up.

What does it matter what the law says if you know it's dangerous and have no intention of doing it ?

Unless, of course, you are more worried about the risk to your licence than the risk to the unrestrained passnger ?

No, that can't be it.


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## rumik (Aug 19, 2007)

So you seem to be suggesting that the law in this area is actually not clear to anyone and won't be until someone gets prosecuted?

I understand that a lot of law contains loopholes and unforeseen implications that are only sorted out by the courts but I'd have thought that this particular area ought to be straightforward enough for parliament/EU to legislate for in a clear fashion.

Although I don't intend to regularly carry passengers in an unsafe way, there may be the odd occasion when it is expedient but I would not want to do it if it was illegal, hence my desire for clarification.


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## chrisndeb (Feb 7, 2007)

Hi All
I think im correct in saying Please tell me if ive misunderstood! 
if your MH is registered before October 2007 and has seatbelts you must use them before anyone travels unbelted, ie: 6 berth MH 4 belted seats (2 cab belts 2 rear) with 6 people if you choose 2 can travel unbelted. 
If its registered after October 2007 you can only carry passengers in belted seats.

Thanks Chris


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Now I am sure that there will not be a line of policepersons ready to pounce on us over this regulation to boost income from tickets. :roll: :roll: but when they say from May onwards, does this mean the 1st MAY or the 31st MAY.2009.just a thought. :wink: :wink: 

cabby


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

chrisndeb said:


> Hi All
> I think im correct in saying Please tell me if ive misunderstood!
> if your MH is registered before October 2007 and has seatbelts you must use them before anyone travels unbelted, ie: 6 berth MH 4 belted seats (2 cab belts 2 rear) with 6 people if you choose 2 can travel unbelted.
> If its registered after October 2007 you can only carry passengers in belted seats.
> ...


Chris,

No, that is not my understanding, which remains as the first answer on this thread. I can't word it any simpler or shorter, I'm afraid.

This is based on DfT opinion, as provided to UKMotorhomes.net by:
Rohan Pohl
Department for Transport
Transport Technology & Standards Division 
Branch 4 8 Zone 2/05
and DfT colleague Tom Norman.

If still unclear, you might like to contact them rather than unravel the wording of the law.

Cabby I'd guess 1st May.

Dave


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## chrisndeb (Feb 7, 2007)

Hi
I have had a few chats about this with a few MH dealers and they are all saying "its only for new MH", one dealer said "what about old cars with no belts in the back, they wiould not be able to have passengers".

Confused.Chris.com


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

chrisndeb said:


> Hi
> one dealer said "what about old cars with no belts in the back, they wiould not be able to have passengers".
> 
> Confused.Chris.com


I am confused as to why you are confused when this is consistent with my first answer on this thread. They CAN have passengers.

As to "this is only for new motorhomes", that goes against the Dft opinion, also covered in that one sentence.

Dave


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## short-stick (Jul 23, 2007)

Well it seems pretty clear to me... Regardless of the safety aspect and with respect to everyones personal situation and opinion... You can carry unbelted passengers in the rear of your motorhome now and in 2009 onwards, provided they EITHER only sit in and use seats fitted with seatbelts OR, if there are no seatbelts fitted in the rear they can sit where they like. If they choose to get up and dance or boil the kettle or use the toilet or even go to bed it's their choice and the safety of that and the possibility of it contravening some policemans view of safety etc would only be up to a court to decide.
Come on guys, there must be loads of motorhomers all over the world who walk into the back of a motorhome to do something whilst travelling, even make a cup of tea!! I know tragedies can and do happen, but it is still a free world, the pavements don't all have high fences to keep us from stepping onto the road except ad designated crossings and for petes sake, buses, all 50 or more passengers all travel unrestrained... Sorry, rant over...


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

Hi all,

As an owner of a vehicle with unbelted seating, I have been making enquiries via VOSA Peterborough Goods Testing Station, and VOSA helpline on 0300 123 9000, and guess what? Yep, no one knows anything about any new seat belt legislation/rules/requirements coming in during May 09.
Also the Traffic Dep't of Cambridgeshire Constabulary (Peterborough), can't throw any light on it either. I am awaiting a call tomorrow from the Traffic Sargeant at P/boro.

According to VOSA, these are the current regs, and there are no notices of intention to alter from these regs. Exert from MOT Testers manual

I more than most, appreciate the consequences of carrying passengers without safety restraints, however, to retrofit restraints, where specifically designed anchorage points have not been included in the original build, may well be impossible. Until I hear differently, I have to assume that the current seat restraint rules/laws at the time of build, are the rules/laws that apply to that type of vehicle.

Jock..


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

I better tel wifey to wear a belt when she pops to the fridge for a cld drink an autoroutes

Dav P


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Just improve your fridge loading, door catch setting and driving technique. On more than one occasion I have braked, forcing the dispensing from the fridge of a can of beer which rolled the length of the van to the cab floor, before accelerating again to shut the fridge door. 

All done with seat belts still on. And before anyone complains, it was a ginger beer ....

Dave


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

I usually end up with eggs on the floor.

But yes a serious debate.

Dave p


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