# My latest scheme to escape the rat race!



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Most of you who know me will know that for years now I have been banging on about full timing and leaving the rat race behind. I’ve not done badly so far with several long trips (six months last summer). You will also know that I am disillusioned and fed up with life in the IT world. I hate it with a vengeance!

Mrs D doesn’t really want to full time though (although she changes her views all the bloody time). I think she is unlike me and is more risk averse. She is also not keen to rent out our house.

We can’t really afford to properly retire yet (both 47).

This is my latest idea.

Now don’t laugh but I quite like the idea of us both working together for 4-6 months of the year. Some friends of our got jobs as campsite wardens and seem to be doing quite well at this and saving a few bob for their next adventure when the contracts up.

My thoughts were this. Sell the house in Teesdale and buy either a property abroad say in the Dordogne or maybe Devon. Rent it as a holiday property all summer while we work as wardens or assistant wardens somewhere in the UK.

Then in the winter we have the choice of living in the property or taking winter tours down to Spain, Greece, Morocco or wherever.

I am counting on the holiday rental making enough money in 6 months as the rental of our house would in 12 months to a long term tenant.

So the questions are. Is this feasible? Where is the best place to buy a property that will make the maximum amount of holiday rental income (it also has to be somewhere we would want to come back to though), Are we just better off renting what we have and then maybe renting a place in the Canaries for a couple of months if Mrs D get sick of the van and wants bricks and mortar?

Financially I reckon if we could both work for six months even on basic wage and get rental from a property we would be quid’s in (we also would have an income of around £300-400 a month from residual income and investments.

Final question. If not campsite wardens. What other jobs are open to couples that are seasonal or short term contracts?

If I can come up with something that when you present the maths to Mrs D it looks like a no brainer and that she doesn’t necessarily have to be full time in the van and maybe gets to live somewhere she likes then I might, just might persuade her to go for it but don’t hold your breath! :roll:


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## valphil (Sep 5, 2012)

some friends of our did about 5 years working the season with Eurocamps , in France , Germany etc , I think they only got £100 each and they didn,t have a home to rent out , but I do know they had a great time doing it . I dont know how you,d feel about it but they lived off unused food and drink they were given when people moved out , I dont mean half eaten bits of chicken etc but unused bottles of milk and packaged meats etc , so didn,t spend much money .....best of luck with your plans ........Phil


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

valphil said:


> some friends of our did about 5 years working the season with Eurocamps , in France , Germany etc , I think they only got £100 each and they didn,t have a home to rent out , but I do know they had a great time doing it . I dont know how you,d feel about it but they lived off unused food and drink they were given when people moved out , I dont mean half eaten bits of chicken etc but unused bottles of milk and packaged meats etc , so didn,t spend much money .....best of luck with your plans ........Phil


Thanks. £100? What. A week, a day?

The people I have spoken to in the UK are getting minimum wage or just above for a 40 hour week so are earning £2000 a month between them. I wouldnt do it for any less to be honest so probably the UK will be best with one of the clubs.

I gather the thing to do is make sure you are paid by the hour not a salary. Doesnt have to be campsites though. There must be other things we can do together.


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## WildThingsKev (Dec 29, 2009)

Have you thought about about writing for the magazines? You have a talent for entertaining writing and at the moment we are all enjoying it for free!

Kev


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

WildThingsKev said:


> Have you thought about about writing for the magazines? You have a talent for entertaining writing and at the moment we are all enjoying it for free!
> 
> Kev


Thanks for that. Yes I have. I approached MMM three times now and showed them some of my blogs and stories. Nobody ever got back to me. I think Im too radical for them! 

I could start my own alternative travel / motorhome magazine I suppose. Eventually I would like to write a book but all these things are back burner and for fun really. If I ever made a few quid out of writing anything it would be a bonus. Im not sure its something I could make regular income from but would love to do it.

If you ask me these magazines need spicing up a bit and most people could do with a laugh.

I would love to organise tours for people. I know we are all quite capable of going off on our own all over Europe but I reckon a lot of people aren't and would do it only as part of an organized tour. I could do that! They would have the time of their lives!!! Well it would certainly be memorable! :lol:


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## Jamsieboy (Jan 14, 2011)

Barry
Either the CC or C&CC were advertising in their latest mag for folk to lead tours abroad.
Might be worth doing a search on the web site of both clubs
All the best


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## Dill (Jun 3, 2010)

Quote: Thanks. £100? What. A week, a day? 

Barry I bet you could live on what you pay for alcohol . 


:lol: :lol: 

Seriously though for the past 4 years we have had friends come with us to France because it's there first time. I think you would make a great guide. I might even come just for the laugh.

Dill


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## adonisito (Nov 6, 2009)

We've talked about this. Our plan is to teach English while wintering in Spain, a small ad in a paper often brings a first response, if you're any good, more will follow and some students require conversation only. A TEFL qualification helps, but is not essential. I spent 3 years travelling around Spain and S America ago doing exactly that.


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Mentioning humerous writing - why not pen a book about your (abortive?) attempt(s) to give up the ****?

I would need a share of the royalties because of my priceless comments


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Me and the boys are looking for a getaway driver. 8) 8)


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

The last scooter driver fell off and was jumped on by passers by.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...aid-1MILLION-designer-watches-police-say.html

Should have kept his Burkha on.

Barry is your man :lol:

tony


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Luckily I was well away by the time those nosey Parkers intervened.

You just can't get the staff these days. :roll:


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Got any watches left? :lol: 

tony


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I knew I should have known better asking you lot!!

Im starting Hank the Tank Alpine Tours!!  

Who wants to sign up for some white knuckle motorhoming adventures?

White water rafting (rubber rings supplied)

Bear Baiting in Slovenia

Campfires and guitar singalong, wilding at 10000ft

Actually I might have hit on something here.  

How much would you pay to come on one of our trips? 8O


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

I would, but doc says no higher than 6000' :? 

tony


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

GEMMY said:


> I would, but doc says no higher than 6000' :?
> 
> tony


I never thought of that. Dont want the punters exploding on the top of the Col de Bonnette.


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## lesanne (May 1, 2008)

What part of abroad is Devon???????????????????


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## WildThingsKev (Dec 29, 2009)

barryd said:


> I knew I should have known better asking you lot!!
> 
> Im starting Hank the Tank Alpine Tours!!
> 
> ...


I remember reading a book by Nicholas Crane years before he appeared on the telly. He walked from Santiago de Compostella to Istanbul via the Picos, Pyrenees, Cevennes, Alps, Carpathians and Balkan mountains (Took 2 years and he began it about a month after getting married!).

Now THAT you could call a tour.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

lesanne said:


> What part of abroad is Devon???????????????????


Its one of the places Mrs D said she would move to. That and France. I just thought if it was a holiday let it might do well there and its somewhere she likes. Anyway it feels like abroad. It takes longer to get there than France from up here!


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## lesanne (May 1, 2008)

Good choice either way son ,whatever you choose i wish you the best //Regards,,, Les..


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## dpsuk999 (Mar 25, 2012)

Have you looked at www.helpx.net

You can basically get your accommodation (pitch etc if using MH), electricity, food etc for free in exchange for an agreed number of days labour.

Great if you want to full time in say France, Spain or anywhere really for 'free'

Plus you get to lean more skills.


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## alhod (Nov 1, 2010)

Why not start your own camp site? I'm thinking Portugal - great potential in the mountain region and property with land is cheap. You would go down really well as host and it gives you the freedom to travel in the winter months.

Alan


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks for the further replies. Whilst I like the idea of voluntary work I think it would have to be for something really worthwhile and Im not at that stage in my life yet. If we are going to work for half the year I want to make some money to help fund the six months off. 

This is pretty much how we did the last five years touring but sadly those sort of winter projects are no longer available to me.

From what I can gather setting up a campsite needs considerable investment to make any serious money. I could be wrong. Im also not sure I am practical enough to do a lot of the work myself that would be required. Im sure I could cope with the duties on a CC site but setting up my own from scratch? I have watched a few programs about people doing this and they nearly always seem to be a disaster.

I reckon I could have £200000-£250000 to invest in something I could rent out in a holiday area. Not a huge amount and probably not enough for a decent campsite. Could maybe spend more but I would prefer to keep some back in a just in case fund or to maybe buy a small property in the UK just to stay in the property game and get a bit more income.


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## whiskyman (Jul 18, 2012)

Hi Barryd
How about standing on some of the Motor-home / other shows with a niche product that every one will want to buy.
You pick the times you want to work which can be every week or just one show a month throughout the season.

We tried it with dog products (wer'e barking mad) but with a product base of about 200 items the job was hard work to say the least. When we do it again it will be with about 5 to 10 related items.

With your it skills perhaps you could do something similar to
Motor-home Wi-Fi or perfect one of the internet tv connections etc.

If standing at shows appeals to you I will gladly tell you how not to do it and save you a bit of dosh on the learning curve.

Cheers
Whiskyman


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Be careful of holiday lets Barry. Even in a reasonably popular spot it's very unlikely you can expect more that 30% occupancy.

We do holiday lets and flats/apartments in Glasgow. Occupancy = 30% approx vs 100%.

True a holiday let will earn in a week roughly what a city centre flat earns in a month. But the holiday let needs managing, meeting and greeting and turning round between lets, deduct the cost of that from the earnings.

We have both managed by very reliable people and find the residential properties require less looking after provided you have regular inspection reports and leave the running of the places including collecting the rent and the responsibility for ensuring that it is collected to a capable management company.

Our residential properties pay better overall but the investment value (even given the recession) of a well situated, desirable holiday let has proven much more rewarding for us.

I hope that helps, Alan.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*budget*

Hello \Barry,

\On my mates laptop, limited access, so excuse me if it has been asked/mentioned. What is your budget for the house in Dordogne (or wherever).

Trev


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

How about:

http://www.franimo.com/camping/dordogne/perigueux/73724/

tony


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## spence (May 25, 2008)

How about Fruit picking? I am sure i seen this on the TV with motorhome owners earning a living for a short period of time each year in the sun?

No idea how much two of you could earn over a couple of months to support your 6 months away.

Spence


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## spence (May 25, 2008)

Fruit Picking Jobs in France


Looking for a fruit picking job in France? Perhaps you see fruit picking as a way to earn holiday cash in France? Here we provide useful information & facts about fruit picking work in France.

Fruit picking jobs are probably the easiest job to obtain in France without the need for a residence permit, or catre de sejour. Although you technically do need a residence permit to get a seasonal job fruit picking in France, it is widely known that the authorities turn a blind eye to this in France if you are working on a fruit picking job. This is because the large agrictultural sector in France, which constitutes 10% of the economy, needs 100,000 extra workers for only a month long period every year during the grape harvests.

Grape Harvest Time in France

The grape harvest in France is by far the largest annual harvest that is vital to the agricultural industry in France. Although the precise dates of grape harvest across France vary, harvests generally begin in mid September and continue to mid or late October. Recent years have seen an increase in automated grape harvesting using machines which has led to a decrease in fruit picking jobs in France. However, many of the more exclusive grape growing regions refuse to employ automated methods and still rely on hand picking the grapes.

Fruit Picking Seasonal Jobs

The exact harvest dates in France depend on a variety of conditions such as weather and atmospheric conditions. The exact date of a grape harvest is only decided by the prefecture only a few days before the harvest begins. The harvest on any given grape plantation lasts about a fortnight. If you’re looking for a fruit picking job during the grape harvest it’s a good idea to be in town at least a week before the harvest begins.

Fruit Picking Job Conditions

The level of pay for fruit picking jobs is not high. In fact some employers pay below minimum wage if you don’t have a residence permit because they know you cant complain to the French government. Employers on most fruit picking jobs will provide food for you to eat during the working day; however, very few employers provide lodgings. Those fruit picking jobs in France that do include lodgings usually consist of a bed in a dorm room or a room in a house if you’re lucky.

Finding a Fruit Picking Job

There are two ways to find a fruit picking job in France. The official way is to contact the national employment agency in France, the APNE, by written letter sometime after June. They’ll send you a questionnaire and the answers you provide help them assign you a suitable job. However, the majority of people who work on fruit picking jobs just turn up in a region around harvest time and start asking around with the locals. Of course, it helps if you speak a little French.


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## bigclick (Oct 9, 2011)

*me too*

I am also in an IT related profession. I use to enjoy the work so much, but now like you I cant stand it.

I literally feel sick on monday mornings at the prospect of going in to work.


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## bigclick (Oct 9, 2011)

*me too*

I am also in an IT related profession. I use to enjoy the work so much, but now like you I cant stand it.

I literally feel sick on monday mornings at the prospect of going in to work.


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

Sent you a pm Barry


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

*Re: me too*



whiskyman said:


> Hi Barryd
> How about standing on some of the Motor-home / other shows with a niche product that every one will want to buy.


I would not be averse to that if I could come up with a product that I thought was worthwhile. Ive done exhibitions in the past. Yes they are hard work but if you have something everyone wants and it flys off the shelf. Very rewarding.



erneboy said:


> Be careful of holiday lets Barry. Even in a reasonably popular spot it's very unlikely you can expect more that 30% occupancy.
> 
> We do holiday lets and flats/apartments in Glasgow. Occupancy = 30% approx vs 100%.
> 
> ...


Thanks Alan

Yes I think we have touched on this before but if its the idea of not being in a van 365 then we might need something we can use ourselves from time to time. Either that or rent this place as it is, work 6 months for the CC or whoever spend 2 months in a rental place in Spain or the Canaries and 4 in the van touring?



teemyob said:


> Hello \Barry,
> 
> \On my mates laptop, limited access, so excuse me if it has been asked/mentioned. What is your budget for the house in Dordogne (or wherever).
> 
> Trev


Alright Trev! Hope your feeling better! I would have thought budget around £200-250K. Could do more but want to keep some money back either for a small house to rent here to keep a foot hold and extra income or just in a high interest account for an emergency. Maybe its not enough I dont know.

We have no mortgage or debts and wouldnt need to or want to take any on.



GEMMY said:


> How about:
> 
> http://www.franimo.com/camping/dordogne/perigueux/73724/
> 
> tony


Thanks Gemmy but I think its a risk too far. Chances are Ill never get Mrs D to agree to what I am suggesting. I have no chance of getting her to take on a campsite and frankly from what I have seen and heard its a nightmare. Or can be.



spence said:


> How about Fruit picking? I am sure i seen this on the TV with motorhome owners earning a living for a short period of time each year in the sun?
> 
> No idea how much two of you could earn over a couple of months to support your 6 months away.
> 
> Spence


Thanks but definitely not! My knees are not great and it looks like flipping hard work.



bigclick said:


> I am also in an IT related profession. I use to enjoy the work so much, but now like you I cant stand it.
> 
> I literally feel sick on monday mornings at the prospect of going in to work.


I feel your pain brother, I really do! 

Michelle and I have ran our own IT business for 12 years now. Its been a blast, made a lot of money for a while. The recession killed all that and what I am left with is either so stressful it makes me physically sick or so tedious and badly paid that its hardly worth it. Long long story but I really do understand what you mean. I cant sleep before a big job (not that there are many anymore). I would love to carry on with the consultancy I was doing before the recession crippled it all but the work isnt there anymore. Im too old for hands on stuff and it doesnt interest me anymore whatsoever.

I hope you find something better.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

erneboy said:


> Be careful of holiday lets Barry. Even in a reasonably popular spot it's very unlikely you can expect more that 30% occupancy.
> 
> We do holiday lets and flats/apartments in Glasgow. Occupancy = 30% approx vs 100%.
> 
> ...


Re-reading what I have written it sounds as thought the holiday let business is also in Glasgow. I can imagine people thinking "not much wonder he only gets 30% occupancy". It's not. It's a lovely, well appointed 3 bedroom cottage on a lake shore with a marina in a busy tourist area. So even with a perfect location and charging the going rate high occupancy is difficult. Judging from conversations with other owners of similar properties 30% seems to be about the norm.

I have no idea how such a venture would go in France but would caution that either you would need very good French to attract and deal with French people or you would be trying to appeal to a niche market bringing Brits out to stay.

Niches are all very well but in order to make your business known I can't help thinking the costs of advertising and marketing would be considerable and ongoing, Alan.


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

How about getting another job, away from IT, maybe part-time, staying in your house and doing shorter trips away. We,ve packed in fulltiming because Caroline didn't like it, I loved it. We,ve moved back into the house, also in Teesdale.

Paul.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I'm with Caroline Coppo

I would hate ful timing 

Love to go away love to get back home

How is that grandchild??

Barry hope you find the solution my love

We are from the generation that just worked till retirement to support family so it was not an option to do other than that

But if you can work it out to suit both of you go for it but make sure you have a fall back

You have a long life ahead of you

aldra


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

erneboy said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> > Be careful of holiday lets Barry. Even in a reasonably popular spot it's very unlikely you can expect more that 30% occupancy.
> ...


I was thinking I would just buy a house next to Penquin (who clearly is ignoring this thread) and let him run it for me! 

I have worked with loads of holiday let owners here in Teesdale and have set up online booking calenders for them. They are full all flipping summer! Mind you they are cheap compared to villas and cottages in the likes of the Dordogne or Devon (not much cheaper than Devon).

When you talk about occupancy levels being 30% is that over the full year? We would only want it to be full over summer (well the six months we are working). We may well use it over winter.

Its just a case of working out which will make the most money. My house is probably worth £200-250K now (£300K a few years ago) but sadly will only rent for maybe £600-700 a month. Take off fees and what have you I just thought there may be a more profitable way.

The other way of looking at is sell and buy where the maxium rent for the least expenditure is. no idea. Doesnt matter though.



coppo said:


> How about getting another job, away from IT, maybe part-time, staying in your house and doing shorter trips away. We,ve packed in fulltiming because Caroline didn't like it, I loved it. We,ve moved back into the house, also in Teesdale.
> 
> Paul.


Thanks. Well I tried that. Nearly got a job with the Enterprise Agency in Teesdale / Weardale. Part time. Would have been a nice way out of IT but missed it by a whisker.

To be honest Paul. Ive had enough of Teesdale pretty as it is and the UK. My uncle who was my best friend and was responsible for helping me up the ladder very much in my career (he was also in IT) worked like stink and died on the company floor at 61 the year we decided to stuff it and go touring. Im 47. What if the same happens to me?

Lifes too F ing short to spend the last decade or so of your so called "career" life doing something you hate. I want to go out and enjoy it while I can.

Im buggered if I live to be a hundred though (unlikely).


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## bellabee (May 16, 2010)

Just a couple of questions Barry:
If Michelle isn't keen to let out your current house in England would she be likely to feel any differently about a house in France or Devon? Presumably that house would also be your 'home' filled with your own furniture and personal stuff? I can empathise with her on this. I don't think I'd like strangers living in my house.

Have you factored the costs of buying and selling into your financial calculations? I understand that buying costs in France are quite high. If you then decided to buy in England again, you'd not only have legal and moving costs but also stamp duty to add to the equation. 

Not trying to put you off. If a move to France is what you want, then go for it - just be careful not to burn your bridges.

Chris


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

bellabee said:


> Just a couple of questions Barry:
> If Michelle isn't keen to let out your current house in England would she be likely to feel any differently about a house in France or Devon? Presumably that house would also be your 'home' filled with your own furniture and personal stuff? I can empathise with her on this. I don't think I'd like strangers living in my house.
> 
> Have you factored the costs of buying and selling into your financial calculations? I understand that buying costs in France are quite high. If you then decided to buy in England again, you'd not only have legal and moving costs but also stamp duty to add to the equation.
> ...


Thanks and yes I have thought of this. The logical thing would be to rent out our current house. Lets say we got £600 a month from it. We would also have £300+ residual income from other investments so £900 a month. Then if we work for 6 months for CC thats another £12K. We could then do what we like for six months and still save. We dont really need a holiday rental place but can I get my wife to even entertain any of it? Nope.

Im just trying to find a way out of where we are right now. I need for my health (and I am serious now) to do something else. I am not scared of hard work but need a change.


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## 1302 (Apr 4, 2006)

barryd said:


> Im just trying to find a way out of where we are right now. I need for my health (and I am serious now) to do something else. I am not scared of hard work but need a change.


Barry

No one ever felt more than you do now than ME  just over two years ago. At new years 2011 we sat in a pub in Hope (Derbyshire) and complained about our jobs etc, We decide that night to both pack it in. And we did - we then set off on our tour. Now I did return to work for two months (but on my terms and for good money - a years salary for a lot of folk in a manner of weeks)

We can now return to the UK to think about what we want to do. I am 54 so not so far on from your age.

I know exactly what you are feeling - trust me - I felt it ten years ago and am so glad we did what we did last year 

You are here for a good time - not a long time


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

1302 said:


> barryd said:
> 
> 
> > Im just trying to find a way out of where we are right now. I need for my health (and I am serious now) to do something else. I am not scared of hard work but need a change.
> ...


Yep! I agree. I feel bad as I think I am banging on about it to Michelle all the time and she doesnt want change but sadly whatever we decide to do is going to involve change.

I would take another career, go back to a full time job or start a new business if I have to but why should I if there is a more viable and enjoyable option out there.

It just seems that whatever path we take, one of us isnt going to like it. This is starting to put a strain on our relationship and it worries me.

Im going to seriously do the maths and work out what the best options are. I could just carry on I suppose like we are but I dont reckon I can. Despite my humor and happy go lucky attitude on here its been bloody awful these last seven months since we got back from Europe.

There has to be something better.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

30% over the whole year Barry, summer being by far the most popular time for bookings which is what you want. We can depend on being fully booked July and August and pretty well empty November till April with Easter starting the season and Halloween ending it. We get some Christmas bookings too, Alan.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

erneboy said:


> 30% over the whole year Barry, summer being by far the most popular time for bookings which is what you want. We can depend on being fully booked July and August and pretty well empty November till April with Easter starting the season and Halloween ending it. We get some Christmas bookings too, Alan.


Thanks Alan. So lets say my current house which is worth £200-£250K rents for £600 a month. Thats £7200 a year.

I think thats a crap rental amount for what its worth. I reckon I could do better in other parts of the country, but where?

For a £200-250K invesement would I get a holiday place somewhere in the UK, France or wherever that would make more than £7200 over a holiday season once you take off all the costs for cleaning and managing etc?

Is it more hassle than its worth? I wonder if I am just better selling ours and buying something in an area of the UK where long term rents are at a premium.


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## Gretchibald (Jul 22, 2011)

At a campsite in Normandy we met a couple who had a job you would like, they tour campsites, check them and make reports for the Alan Rogers guide.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Gretchibald said:


> At a campsite in Normandy we met a couple who had a job you would like, they tour campsites, check them and make reports for the Alan Rogers guide.


Ironically we did get accepted for this job and were about to start when I got called back to the UK to do a big IT project!! :roll:

The money is diabolical though. I think I worked out we would make £600 over the two months we would be doing it.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*well and property*

Hello Barry,

I am not too bad, thank you Tripped on crutches at the weekend and fell on bad foot. Result, lots of pain, mild shock symptom, badly swollen and lots of bruising.

Anyway, the plan.

I have many times sat and looked at similar plans, only family keeps us here. You may have noticed my posts re property in Spain recently?. Which is a compromise.

We looked at the Javea area last month, viewing around 25 houses in your price range. Javea has quite a lucrative rental market in the summer. Even in the winter, there is a good market for long term winter lets. Problem is, supply often exceeds demand. I prefer Costa Blanca for its almost all year sunny climate.

One of the most rentable markets in the world is the French med from Hyeres to the Italian border. Try finding anything to rent there in July and August, nigh on impossible. Even trying to get a pitch or an aire is a fight. This is where you may find campsite or bar jobs, but a reasonable command of the French Language for most jobs is a must. There are lots of sites that have Keycamp/Canvas/Eurocamp clients. But if you apply for these jobs, you can't usually choose your site.

Where else have you considered in the UK?

The High Peak seems to have quite a demand for weekend cottage rentals?. One of my clients, a solicitor. Shut shop, sold his house in suburbia, bought a small group of properties lives in and rents them out Gite Style.

Trev.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

*Re: well and property*



teemyob said:


> Hello Barry,
> 
> I am not too bad, thank you Tripped on crutches at the weekend and fell on bad foot. Result, lots of pain, mild shock symptom, badly swollen and lots of bruising.
> 
> ...


Bloody Hell Trev. Go to bed. for a month!

Never considered Spain. isnt everyone trying to get out of Spain at the moment? I have also watched too many horror stories on the telly to consider buying there. Med coast though? I would have thought we wouldnt have the budget but could be wrong.

I think if campsite jobs are on a possibility then I reckon the UK in one of the clubs would be the best bet unless anyone knows different. I think from what I have heard you earn peanuts abroad. Again. Just what I have read on here.


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## motormouth (Jul 3, 2010)

Barry
I think you should get yourself a Transit van, and a blooming great big caravan. Lay some tarmac, fix some roofs that don't need fixing, pitch up somewhere that the local council have found for you, upset all the locals, have a few fights, get a few horses, nick whatever you want and move on.
No tax to pay, no council tax, no rent utilities etc etc.
Sorted. :wink:


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## dally1 (Jul 1, 2010)

Here's a thought for you then Barry. If you were to sell up and move to another area where rents are at a premium you could look at this as an example.

We live in Kendal, obviously on the edge of the lakes and an area I know you enjoy. Our house is a fairly modern (40 years old) 3 bed mid terrace and is worth about £150,000. Now, we can command rents here for this in the region of £600 a month, similar to your own house now but you will have a fighting fund left over on your sale of at least £50,000.

I have just looked in the Westmorland Gazette and there's a house for rent on a private and nice estate asking £750 a month. You could buy a house up there for around £200,000. 

Lots of people are renting here and commuting to Manchester apparently.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

barryd said:


> For a £200-250K invesement would I get a holiday place somewhere in the UK, France or wherever that would make more than £7200 over a holiday season once you take off all the costs for cleaning and managing etc?
> 
> Is it more hassle than its worth? I wonder if I am just better selling ours and buying something in an area of the UK where long term rents are at a premium.


You would be doing very well to earn that from a holiday home Barry, especially considering that you will have to employ people to manage it for you if you aren't there. We work on £100 for cleaning and making ready between lets. That includes meeting and greeting the next lot. So say you could get £550 ish a week in high season (a good deal less in mid and low season) which is the going rate for a four star, three bedroom, two bathroom with two receptions where we are and it's the local going rate that counts because you won't get many lets if your price is higher than the local average. You may find areas where the going rate is higher of course.

It's no good adding lots of extras to a cottage and hoping for higher rentals, most people judge one against the other firstly by how many they can sleep and secondly on price.

I don't want to put you off holiday lets. A permanently occupied property near a city centre will earn more while a well located holiday let in a desirable area will almost certainly be more likely to increase in value, Alan.


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## 1302 (Apr 4, 2006)

I understand that CC wardens get paid 'minimum wage' but if you weigh up the fact that two of you are working and you have 'no bills' to pay I reckon you wouldn't feel the pinch too much. We have friends that worked on a site in Portugal and got the princely sum of One Euro an hour each - they clearly weren't in it for the money - they left after the trial month as the owner even tried screwing them our of some extra hours :lol:


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## meavy (Jul 30, 2010)

We let out properties in London and Devon, the latter to help fund nursing home fees for am elderly Aunt. Her bungalow in Tavistock is worth £275k and we rent it out for £700 a month. The problem is that most of that is eaten up in management fees, insurance, all the costs involved in setting up the tenancy and then dealing with tenants' complaints, gas safety inspection etc. The property washes its face,as they say, but you couldn't live off the income.

Have you considered buying for student lets? Our young people have nearly finished the Uni cycle and quality rentals for quality students are hard to come by. If I wanted to rent to students, I would avoid places where property is expensive eg Oxbridge and go for undervalued Home Counties such as Egham in Surrey. Royal Holloway College, Uni of London is there and our son said his landlord made a mint from student rentals.

I went on Rightmove and found a 3/4 bedder for £250k. Great access into Waterloo and probably outside the LEZ if that's what you need.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Some interesting replies thanks.

So it seems there are certainly parts of the country where rental for capital outlay is much better. Of course there is the hassle and cost in selling this place and then purchasing another. 

If it seems holiday rentals are not the way to go (jury still out on that one) then it comes back to either renting this place out or selling and buying something else. Of course another option would be to sell up and buy perhaps two or three cheap properties at the bottom end. Maybe rent to students or the council. My pal is in the building trade and has properties all over Darlington. He showed me round one recently that is renting for £450 PCM. He paid £38K for it, spent £20K doing it up so £58K for a rental not much less than we would get for a house worth well over £200K. 

Could be a load of hassle though which again is something else that will put Mrs D off.

As regards working for minumum wage on a CC site. You would be quids in. No expenses whatsoever apart from food and drink. You could probably manage on £500-700 a month and save well over £1000 a month. With money from rentals and other income as well you would have more than enough to go off travelling for six months I would have thought and maybe save a bit.

It all sounds great in theory. Try convincing SWMO though!


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

meavy said:


> We let out properties in London and Devon, the latter to help fund nursing home fees for am elderly Aunt. Her bungalow in Tavistock is worth £275k and we rent it out for £700 a month. The problem is that most of that is eaten up in management fees, insurance, all the costs involved in setting up the tenancy and then dealing with tenants' complaints, gas safety inspection etc. The property washes its face,as they say, but you couldn't live off the income.
> 
> Have you considered buying for student lets? Our young people have nearly finished the Uni cycle and quality rentals for quality students are hard to come by. If I wanted to rent to students, I would avoid places where property is expensive eg Oxbridge and go for undervalued Home Counties such as Egham in Surrey. Royal Holloway College, Uni of London is there and our son said his landlord made a mint from student rentals.
> 
> I went on Rightmove and found a 3/4 bedder for £250k. Great access into Waterloo and probably outside the LEZ if that's what you need.


That's why our apartments are in Glasgow. £595 to £625 a month and you can buy them for around £80,000 to £90,000 for a good recently built two bed with en suite in the master bedroom. We don't usually do students though. Ours are right beside a major hospital so it's mainly young doctors, Alan.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

erneboy said:


> meavy said:
> 
> 
> > We let out properties in London and Devon, the latter to help fund nursing home fees for am elderly Aunt. Her bungalow in Tavistock is worth £275k and we rent it out for £700 a month. The problem is that most of that is eaten up in management fees, insurance, all the costs involved in setting up the tenancy and then dealing with tenants' complaints, gas safety inspection etc. The property washes its face,as they say, but you couldn't live off the income.
> ...


Bingo! Ill have two then. Job done. Well not done actually. How do I pitch this to Mrs D. Err. We are buying two flats in Glasgow love. You havent seen "the look" but its enough to flatten anyones dreams or hopes!

Exactly the kind of info I was after though. Thanks for all the help guys and PM's. Would I be right in saying you wouldnt pay stamp duty on a £90000 flat?

Then again once you have two properties are they not all sorts of complications with capital gains tax and the like when you come to sell it?


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## motormouth (Jul 3, 2010)

Don't forget income tax as well as any capital gains tax when you sell.
It might be worth setting yourself up as a business so you can pay corporation tax instead of income tax, and fairly easy to break even or even trade at a loss  

As others have said, renting does have it's problems.
Think about:-
Buildings insurance @ £200 per year
Gas safe certificates @ £90 per year
Council tax if property is unoccupied
Agents fees if you go that route @ 10% of the monthly rent + VAT
Ongoing repairs
Non payment of rent, though you can insure for this
Getting rid of tenants
etc etc etc

Having said that, I don't think you can get anywhere near the returns putting your money in anything else but property, even with the ongoing costs etc.


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## Valian (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi
We've stayed on various sites around Cornwall over the last 3-4 months, and have met quite a few couples who winter somewhere warm and then come back to UK for the summer,living in their motorhome and working on sites - not club sites but private ones. One couple, the guy cut grass and did maintenance work while his wife worked on the reception desk. They seemed to think that 4 days a week allowed them a comfortable lifestyle; they were there March-September. I think there were at least 3 couples on the site doing that.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

motormouth said:


> Don't forget income tax as well as any capital gains tax when you sell.
> It might be worth setting yourself up as a business so you can pay corporation tax instead of income tax, and fairly easy to break even or even trade at a loss
> 
> As others have said, renting does have it's problems.
> ...


I dont reckon the income tax would be much for two of us but yes you would have to take it into account. Im not sure how the capital gains tax works though. Say you buy at £100K and sell ten years later at £150K do you get taxed on the £50K profit and how much? Obviously this only applies if you have two or more properties.

From the information I have received both on here and via PM it would seem two properties in the right area are the way to go where a £200K invenstment could well earn in excess of £1000 a month. To be honest if we were full timing we would also have a bit more coming in as well on other investements. With that kind of income you could just about not bother working. Only just though. It would be tight. I think it would be better to work half the year and save a few quid as well.

Or

I could carry on doing bits of IT work from the van which might prove difficult on the move. I would feel more relaxed about it though if I was picking and choosing jobs.

Confusing isnt it??? :?


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

The other option of holiday homes if in the right location would give you a base for winter so you were not in the van all year round.
If you could afford 2 small properties you could still rent the second one for the winter period.
We struggled to rent in January when house hunting in the south of France, some just shut up for the winter and a lot do longer rentals .
We bought our house with the intention of being able to rent it to boost my income but as my pension has ended up being beyond all our expectations (and belief) we don't intend to rent anymore.
We paid around €112k with renovations and if we went down the rental route as a 1 bed sleeping 4/5 we could get £500 a week May - September and £200 for the rest or £500 a month over winter for a long term let.
You don't have the risk of none payment of rent where it takes months to get the tenants out and they trash the place but you do have some extra fees for someone to do the change overs.
If you looked around with cash I am sure you could find a couple of apartments for your budget.

James


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

JP said:


> ........ and if we went down the rental route as a 1 bed sleeping 4/5 we could get £500 a week May - September and £200 for the rest or £500 a month over winter for a long term let. James


Is that your experience of actual occupation James or what you think you might get. Often they are two very different things.



JP said:


> You don't have the risk of none payment of rent where it takes months to get the tenants out and they trash the place but you do have some extra fees for someone to do the change overs.
> If you looked around with cash I am sure you could find a couple of apartments for your budget.
> James


If you have residential properties with a properly set up management deal through competent agents that risk is minimal, Alan.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Barry

I think your foremost concern should be to sit down with Michelle and discuss just what you both want for the future and how best to achieve that 

At times you are coming across as running away from something rather than towards a new beginning

So if you are both in agreement that you want to full time then you have a clear goal in mind

The next stage is how to achieve that TOGETHER

One thing is certain you both have to agree on the way forward or go your separate ways

your starting point is you and Michelle and sometimes dreams need to put on short term hold whilst the details are worked out to suit both of you

You have hopefully a long future together to plan your dreams D   

So relax and give it some time things have a way of working out

There now I sound more like your mum :lol: :lol: 

Aldra


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

Alan

Not personal experience as we have decided we don't need or want to rent but personal experience from friends we have made in the village, some other property owners, one a lady who manages dozens of places and another who is a local estate agent.

I think you have to choose the property and area very carefully, we are about 16km from St Tropez and 10km from the nearest beaches so it is a very sought after area and a lot of rental properties are massive and cost £0000's a week so smaller places are of a premium.

A good management company for a UK let saves a lot of hassle but it still takes months to get a tenant out when going through the courts and although you can insure against this its not cheap.

James


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks James. As I said earlier exactly where you are can make a difference. I don't think full occupancy from May to September could be achieved in many places.

We have a full management deal with our agents for the flats and it covers all eventualities including arranging repairs, looking after council tax during the gaps between lets (not yet more than a couple of weeks) etc. and insurance against non payment. Our agents don't allow anyone who cannot prove their ability to pay in to begin with and they require a guarantor if a prospective tenant is young or doubtful in any way. We pay 5% over the usual management fee for that although obviously bills are paid from the rental income before it's passed on to us. The agents do quarterly inspections of the flat and send them on to us, they take any action necessary if things aren't as they should be. 

We need a fully managed deal like that as we aren't there.

I am only saying all this to show that it can be managed remotely if you can find the right agent to act for you. To begin with we used a national chain and they were completely useless, Alan.


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## Roadhogg (Oct 6, 2012)

I do not believe that you will be able to fully commit to the property rental lifestyle. It is tough going, we have been in the construction business for 30 years & have property for sale since 2007 with nobody even viewing & as for the rental market we currently have 40% non occupancy & with prsi now added to the gross rental amount things are not going to improve anytime shortly.

As a company we have the ability, machinery, workshop facility etc to turn a derelict building into a very desirable residence, but with no finance available to prospective purchasers there is no point.

If the market did improve I would advise that perhaps you & the builder friend that you mentioned bought a small property between you that could easily be converted into small apartments that would sell for small money, completed over a 6 month period, if sold quickly, would give you a small return that may be enough to allow you to tour for the following 6 months & of course you would be your own boss & could work flexible hours.

Or how about this, you obviously have a huge knowledge of various regions of Europe along with places closer to you like the Scottish Highlands so why not try a few guided tours.

For example I would imagine there are many foreign tourists who would love to explore the Highlands but are afraid they will not get the most out of there trip, but if they had a tour guide who could show them the best wild camping spots along with places of interest with a bit of humour thrown in to make there stay even more enjoyable, you could have the makings of a business that would be a working holiday for you.
If you had a well planned, well advertised route say over a 6 month period you could have paying motorhomers joining you for various parts of the trip, the same as holidaymakers join cruise ships at various locations.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Roadhogg said:


> I do not believe that you will be able to fully commit to the property rental lifestyle. It is tough going, we have been in the construction business for 30 years & have property for sale since 2007 with nobody even viewing & as for the rental market we currently have 40% non occupancy & with prsi now added to the gross rental amount things are not going to improve anytime shortly.
> 
> As a company we have the ability, machinery, workshop facility etc to turn a derelict building into a very desirable residence, but with no finance available to prospective purchasers there is no point.
> 
> ...


Thanks John for that considered reply. I take on board your comments especially as your in that business but there must be buy to let opportunities in certain parts of the country. Im not interested in buying something and doing it up to sell just possibly buying outright a couple of properties in a high rent area.

It needs a lot of investigation though.

Your the second person to suggest being a tour guide or organising motorhome tours. I never really considered the UK but its not a bad idea. My knowledge of the Lake District, Scotland and in particular the islands (Ive done 18 of them and many more than once) is pretty good.

Food for thought.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Cheap one here Barry. There are cheaper but this one has van parking space.

https://www.leboncoin.fr/caravaning/1120892815.htm?ca=4_s

Ray.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Blimey Ray! This thread is four years old now. Quite a few names have disappeared sadly. Wonder what happened to JP and Motormouth.

Four years later and nothing has changed.  I certainly would not consider doing a campsite wardens job now for sure after talking to a few. My knees are too knackered now for one thing. 

To be honest any thoughts of buying abroad are completely on hold because of Brexit anyway as is any other investment decisions.


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## Gretchibald (Jul 22, 2011)

You should have bought that little campsite in Ireland - wish I had.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

barryd said:


> Blimey Ray! This thread is four years old now. Quite a few names have disappeared sadly. Wonder what happened to JP and Motormouth.
> Four years later and nothing has changed.  I certainly would not consider doing a campsite wardens job now for sure after talking to a few. My knees are too knackered now for one thing.
> To be honest any thoughts of buying abroad are completely on hold because of Brexit anyway as is any other investment decisions.


But at €2,500 Barry.

Ray.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

I missed that gem, what little campsite in Ireland, we have often on here chatted about owning a communal site, if big enough. Maybe now is the time to take a gamble and invest in europe.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

OK cheaper and younger...........................
https://www.leboncoin.fr/caravaning/1127254211.htm?ca=4_s

Ray.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

cabby said:


> I missed that gem, what little campsite in Ireland, we have often on here chatted about owning a communal site, if big enough. Maybe now is the time to take a gamble and invest in europe.


What? Right when we area very likely to have a major bust up with them over Brexit? It would be a gamble alright.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I wonder if all this doubt over Brexit being better for us may become a self fulfilling prophecy, it can't possibly work so i won't try to make it work is going to defeat us.

It is going to happen, so get with the program and get on with making it a success, you are either part of the problem or part of the solution, you choose. but do something other than continually moan about it, just don't vote the oaf in next week ffs


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> I wonder if all this doubt over Brexit being better for us may become a self fulfilling prophecy, it can't possibly work so i won't try to make it work is going to defeat us.
> 
> It is going to happen, so get with the program and get on with making it a success, you are either part of the problem or part of the solution, you choose. but do something other than continually moan about it,* just don't vote the oaf in next week ffs*


I presume you mean Theresa May Kev? Not a very nice thing to call a lady.

So we should all knuckle down and get behind Brexit even though some of us are completely against it? I could say that IMO its the Brexiteers who are part of the problem to be fair. Its called living in a Democracy. There is no way Ill ever get behind it, ever.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Your choice then is to sit and watch it fail, not very forward thinking is it.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

As for living in a democracy, you seem not to want that since it went against you.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Your choice then is to sit and watch it fail, not very forward thinking is it.


"Forward thinking" about a backward step, great idea ! :grin2:

Terry


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

It is forward thinking though Terry, although you may not agree, it is the future, it will happen, but would you be one to sit back or one of those who will, once the paperwork is signed, get on with making things better, as no one really knows how it will all pan out, but many (the majority) saw a way forward and took it, there has been too many sour grapes since then which doesn't seem to have produced very much at all.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Your choice then is to sit and watch it fail, not very forward thinking is it.


I think it will fail Kev and it will be extremely damaging. I'm not only against it because of the economic cost but also more importantly to me I am against the right wing populist movement that is taking over the west but so far has only been succesful in the usa and uk.

It's the democratic right of anyone in any democratic country to oppose it and hold those to account who chose to steer our country in such a direction. Five years from now we may well be clambering to get back into the EU once we see the error of our ways. I suspect many will continue to campaign for that if brexit goes a badly a I suspect.

That's how democracy works, you don't just give up campaigning for what you want based on what was essentially a poll and a split one at that nearly a year ago.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

barryd said:


> I think it will fail Kev and it will be extremely damaging. I'm not only against it because of the economic cost but also more importantly to me I am against the right wing populist movement that is taking over the west but so far has only been succesful in the usa and uk.
> 
> It's the democratic right of anyone in any democratic country to oppose it and hold those to account who chose to steer our country in such a direction. Five years from now we may well be clambering to get back into the EU once we see the error of our ways. I suspect many will continue to campaign for that if brexit goes a badly a I suspect.
> 
> That's how democracy works, you don't just give up campaigning for what you want based on what was essentially a poll and a split one at that nearly a year ago.


But how can it succeed if almost half the country won't give it a shot just because they don't like it, that is suicide in my opinion, you doom it to fail, why would any sane person do that.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> As for living in a democracy, you seem not to want that since it went against you.


Kev, do you think that democracy means that everybody has to back decisions they disagree with?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> But how can it succeed if almost half the country won't give it a shot just because they don't like it, that is suicide in my opinion, you doom it to fail, why would any sane person do that.


If you think the problem exists because half the country won't give it a chance maybe the majority needed to consider it should have been 60%, 75%?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> But how can it succeed if almost half the country won't give it a shot just because they don't like it, that is suicide in my opinion, you doom it to fail, why would any sane person do that.


Because they think it's insane and want to see it reversed.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> It is forward thinking though Terry, although you may not agree, it is the future, it will happen, but would you be one to sit back or one of those who will, once the paperwork is signed, get on with making things better, as no one really knows how it will all pan out, but many (the majority) saw a way forward and took it, there has been too many sour grapes since then which doesn't seem to have produced very much at all.


Kev, I don't only think it's not forward thinking, I believe it will be a catastrophe for the majority of UK citizens. Oh I do think it'll be fine for those that can afford to ride the storm, but those with the least will suffer the most.

Call it sour grapes if you must, I see it as my right to voice opposition, please allow me that right without disparaging my position.

As to the majority rules position, it's a bit like a waring family voting by a narrow majority in favour of a friendly family get together and expecting all to turn up smiling and getting along as if all is fine and dandy ! It won't happen and is doomed to fail.

Terry


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

dghr272 said:


> Kev, I don't only think it's not forward thinking, I believe it will be a catastrophe for the majority of UK citizens. Oh I do think it'll be fine for those that can afford to ride the storm, but those with the least will suffer the most.
> 
> Call it sour grapes if you must, I see it as my right to voice opposition, please allow me that right without disparaging my position.
> 
> ...


We are certainly far from well off, it is because of this that I feel we need to have a 100% push to make it all better. It may be that I voted wrongly based in the info at the time, but I was not alone in this, hopefully when we (or rather those who matter) need to work together, it will happen, I do hope those who voted to stay will not hold things up hoping for yet another vote, which will make the UK look even more rediculous to the rest of the world.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

erneboy said:


> Kev, do you think that democracy means that everybody has to back decisions they disagree with?


Thats an interpretation of course Alan, mine is thus "control of an organisation or group by the majority of its members" I think that is what happened last June, it's not that I don't feel for those who prefer to stay, I'm not saying that at this time I may feel I could vote differently, but I didn't, and I'm not going to cry about, we cannot **** about with this any more can we really, we need to get on with it.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

erneboy said:


> If you think the problem exists because half the country won't give it a chance maybe the majority needed to consider it should have been 60%, 75%?


Sorry Alan I don't follow you there mate


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

erneboy said:


> Because they think it's insane and want to see it reversed.


But why have a vote in the first place, so do you mean if we have another and have a similar margin either way, we need to have yet another and another until someone decides it bloody stupid to have a vote if no one is going to abide by it.

And can you just quote my post in full with deletions if need be, as I'm getting dizzy going back forth here


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> We are certainly far from well off, it is because of this that I feel we need to have a 100% push to make it all better. It may be that I voted wrongly based in the info at the time, but I was not alone in this, hopefully when we (or rather those who matter) need to work together, it will happen, I do hope those who voted to stay will not hold things up hoping for yet another vote, which will make the UK look even more rediculous to the rest of the world.


I am not sure there will be another vote Kev but who knows? We didnt think there would be another election but there is. Theresa May has done so many U turns everyone is dizzy. Now it seems all is not going well for the Tories which is great news so who knows what might happen. One things for sure to allow them a free reign and for everyone to throw in the towel and back them is not the best of ideas IMO unless your a multi millionaire or running some big conglomerate.

The UK already looks ridiculous. The only people outside the UK who think Brexit is a good idea is Trump and Putin FFS! You have to ask why that is.

Farage himself said a 48% - 52% outcome would not be enough and it was UKIP that started the second referendum petition when they thought it might not go their way.

Thats the big problem here. The country was not decisive about it and they still aren't. Thats why Tim Farron is right. Really like any major decision you need a cooling off period and the ability to have a final say on the deal once you actually know what it means. Sadly the Lib / Dems are a bit of a small voice in the current political climate.

Dont get me wrong, Im not about to go around dressed in a ski mask sabotaging Brexiteers or anything but I cannot get behind it as I am so vehemently against it.

I like the way you have turned my rat race thread into another Brexit thread though.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

barryd said:


> I am not sure there will be another vote Kev but who knows? We didnt think there would be another election but there is. Theresa May has done so many U turns everyone is dizzy. Now it seems all is not going well for the Tories which is great news so who knows what might happen. One things for sure to allow them a free reign and for everyone to throw in the towel and back them is not the best of ideas IMO unless your a multi millionaire or running some big conglomerate.
> 
> The UK already looks ridiculous. The only people outside the UK who think Brexit is a good idea is Trump and Putin FFS! You have to ask why that is.
> 
> ...


I dunno what the answer is, and I have zero facts to have a political opinion, I just feel if we do not pull together in any direction it going to fail, I am also not against another vote as may appear from my posts, but we as to have rules Guv, like what a clear majority % might need to be for it to called the last vote, and what happens if it is not achieved, this should have been in the last one, but clearly was not.

And don't thank me, I didn't take it down the Brexit road cock, you did http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/2597785-post67.html > >


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Are we talking about "The Rat Race" here.??

Ray.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> I dunno what the answer is, and I have zero facts to have a political opinion, I just feel if we do not pull together in any direction it going to fail, I am also not against another vote as may appear from my posts, but we as to have rules Guv, like what a clear majority % might need to be for it to called the last vote, and what happens if it is not achieved, this should have been in the last one, but clearly was not.
> 
> And don't thank me, I didn't take it down the Brexit road cock, you did http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/2597785-post67.html > >


Not really, it is a genuine reason im neither investing or considering a move abroad.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Thing is Barry and I know it's too late but with the Pound plummeting things bought in Euroland prior to last year are worth more. Unlike Sterling assets.

Ray.


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## emjaiuk (Jun 3, 2005)

raynipper said:


> Thing is Barry and I know it's too late but with the Pound plummeting things bought in Euroland prior to last year* are worth more*. Unlike Sterling assets.
> 
> Ray.


Only if you can realize their value Ray

Malcolm


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

emjaiuk said:


> Only if you can realize their value Ray Malcolm


Absolutely which is why we are 'trapped' here.

Ray.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Thats an interpretation of course Alan, mine is thus "control of an organisation or group by the majority of its members" ...........


Quite so Kev. Now where's the but that says that defeated members of that organisation or group can't seek another vote on a matter? Any matter?

If it was for all time we'd only ever have needed one general election which I'm sure you will agree is obviously not the case? So how long must an interval be before any issue may be revisited at the ballot box in your opinion?

Do you think that if the Tories don't do well at the coming election May will remain leader? She was democratically voted in by her party, does that give her life tenure? Maybe she's there for the life of the current parliament but where is that written down? Is she simply there for as long as she enjoys confidence? Are there people in her party who'd see her gone tomorrow? If so is their ambition to replace her undemocratic?

All of it is always up for grabs. That's what democracy is. The current situation, whatever it might be can be opposed by anyone and can be challenged. Thus we oppose brexit. That is our democratic right.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

It can't be all up for grabs though Alan, there would be nothing but votes and elections, until democracy was defeated, that's why there are limits I suppose.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

You cannot say ok let's have a vote on this, but if we don't like the result we'll vote again until we do.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> You cannot say ok let's have a vote on this, but if we don't like the result we'll vote again until we do.


Quite right, but at the same time you can't silence opponents sine die, that's dictatorship not democracy.

Terry


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

dghr272 said:


> Quite right, but at the same time you can't silence opponents sine die, that's dictatorship not democracy.
> 
> Terry


I've not tried to silence anyone though Terry, only perhaps tried to encourage peeps to work together when the time comes and not bury heads in the sand an go la la la.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> I've not tried to silence anyone though Terry, only perhaps tried to encourage peeps to work together when the time comes and not bury heads in the sand an go la la la.


Sorry Kev, I thought you told us to stop moaning earlier and took that as a call to shut up and get in line. :surprise:

Terry


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Well here we are


Remouners remainers

If we stay it will be fine except for the things that are maybe not

If we go it will be fine, except for things that are maybe not

For me whatever I voted

We are out 

Note we are out 

So let's just come together and go for it

And I have a sneaking suspicion 

It could have been the right decision 

Sandra


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> You cannot say ok let's have a vote on this, but if we don't like the result we'll vote again until we do.


No but you could three years down the line once you actually know what the Brexit deal is give the public the final say and if or when we do leave and it all turns out to be the disaster many predict you can give the public the chance to vote again. A lot of Brexiteers have decided its all a bit like a game of Footie. You lost so you should now shuffle off, say nothing and never come back. It dont work like that though. If the Brexiteers dont like it tough titty. Thats democracy for you. Maybe they should have thought about that before taking us out of the EU based on one referendum only that was very marginal and where since nearly all the polls have showed at best 50/50 but the majority and latest ones show those wanting to remain slightly in the majority.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

dghr272 said:


> Sorry Kev, I thought you told us to stop moaning earlier and took that as a call to shut up and get in line. :surprise:
> 
> Terry


I don't think I put it quite like that, but yes, quit moaning and lets get on with it would be my suggestion, however if all the remainers wanted a further vote, then I'd still say stop moaning and get started with trying to get one, but whichever way it went I would still say get on with making the country better, which no one seem to be getting on board with so far, just moaning about what may or may not happen.

I was thinking if this was a man and wife decision about whether to give up motorhoming, I guess the wife would win that one, as to do otherwise in a lot of houses, the moaning would never end and it would be a disaster, not a perfect analogy, but we still have to live together regarding Brexit, constantly banging on about it helps how?


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

It's OK for you lot to keep saying get on with it and stop moaning when the effects of leaving haven't really hit home and emptied your pockets yet.
But us lot across the channel have already had a year of 20% loss and will continue as such. I will be 104 before the 'Good Times' return.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

If you think you're badly off Ray, spare a thought for those who never had money to invest, or have rental properties to help out, I'm not saying you didn't earn it all, but we don't all have that kind of money to start with.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I do frequently Kev. Many migrants have my sympathies but rarely do I have sympathy for those queueing at UK food banks. It's all relative.

Ray.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> It can't be all up for grabs though Alan, there would be nothing but votes and elections, until democracy was defeated, that's why there are limits I suppose.


Tell us about these limits Kev. The only notional one I know of is fixed term parliaments, which as we've just seen aren't for fixed terms at all. It was changed democratically by Mrs May revisiting the matter.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

erneboy said:


> Tell us about these limits Kev. The only notional one I know of is fixed term parliaments, which as we've just seen aren't for fixed terms at all. It was changed democratically by Mrs May revisiting the matter.


That one will do Alan, do you think we should just have votes for eternity, or until you get the one you like.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> It can't be all up for grabs though Alan, there would be nothing but votes and elections, until democracy was defeated, that's why there are limits I suppose.


Votes and elections don't defeat democracy Kev, they facilitate it.

Theresa May became PM last year and assured us there'd be no general election. Then she changed her mind and called one. Was that undemocratic?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> That one will do Alan, do you think we should just have votes for eternity, or until you get the one you like.


Good Kev, we're making progress. You see that revisiting of a matter within one year as democratic.

Now what would the difference be if we revisited brexit between now and the day we leave the EU?


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

erneboy said:


> Votes and elections don't defeat democracy Kev, they facilitate it.
> 
> Theresa May became PM last year and assured us there'd be no general election. Then she changed her mind and called one. Was that undemocratic?


Maybe she thought it would be more appropriate that the PM to take us out of the EU should be an elected one, less chance of it being deemed improper by dissatisfied remainers.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

That is one possible interpretation Kev, however her reasons are not pertinent in this conversation.

All we are addressing is whether it was democratically acceptable for her to do as she's done, which I think we both agree it was. So what is the difference between that and some people wanting to see brexit revisited at some point before we leave? Why do you see one as undemocratic but not the other?


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Looking for yet another argument eh Alan, I'll leave it there as I really do dislike your style on these subjects, very antagonistic I find, you poke until you get a reaction then back off.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

No Kev, just exploring the issue. I had no intention of annoying you.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Probably not Alan, I've said before I think you're decent bloke, but you do seem to like scoring points, it then is no longer a conversation, but an argument, and not what I stay on this forum for, hence why I don't wish to continue in this vein.


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

erneboy said:


> I had no intention of annoying you.


You don't say that to me!:grin2::grin2:


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Tim Farron is right and as it all seems we want to support democracy (or so we say) why would anyone object to the public having a final say on Brexit? Everyone has pretty much admitted that there were lies on both sides (Vote leave were the worst IMO but whatever) and that to many it was not clear what Brexit meant so once we know and have all the facts about what Brexit really means if you truly believe in democracy why not agree to put it to the people again once its all laid out on the table?

The answer of course is that the Brexiteers only shout "Democracy" when it suits them and are terrified of the public actually turning round and saying "hang on a minute this looks a bit sh!t" they would rather plough ahead regardless, even if it were no longer the will of the people. Hypocrites. I cannot believe some of them on social media. Hard core Brexiteers that havent got a pot to pish in voting for the Tories because they are so desperate for a hard Brexit at any cost. They have simply lost the plot and its become the only thing they are focused on as they must have it no matter what!


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I have already said have another vote Barry, but what if it's the same outcome, will you want another, I'm happy to vote again if one is all we have.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

So we can have another vote before it's final. Good.

I don't understand why you tell us we should get behind brexit then Kev. If you agree that another vote is acceptable surely you are acknowledging that we are entitled to be opposed to brexit?


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Well Alan it's simple, Brexit is the only option right now to get behind, if people want a vote there will be a way to get one I assume, so why has it not happened yet? and would one be enough for the remainers if it was still a vote to leave?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I can't answer for everybody Kev but one before we leave would be enough for me, for a while till we saw how it went. Though it wouldn't immediately change my mind if leave won again.

Of course if the brexiters turned out to be right and the UK began to thrive outside the EU I, along with the other remainers, would soon discover that we were wrong. 

As you are granting the vote it follows that you see two options, not just one possibility. You are on one side of that debate and I'm on the other. Both positions are valid.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Well Alan it's simple, Brexit is the only option right now to get behind, if people want a vote there will be a way to get one I assume, so why has it not happened yet? and would one be enough for the remainers if it was still a vote to leave?


It hasnt happened yet and is unlikely to happen because those in power and those behind Brexit dont want one because the will of the people might have changed and it might be a vote to remain! Why do you think everyone is so up in arms about it? Like I said they talk about democracy but are not prepared to take a step back and say "hang on, we are pretty divided on this, maybe we need to look again once we know what Brexit means".

If it was a vote to remain and it was again a small margin to be honest I think that would just show that we were still divided but what it should do is show us that now is perhaps not the right time to leave. For such a massive change we need to be sure that its what the country really wants and is the right thing to do and we simply are not sure. The logical thing to do would be to remain for say five years, stop sending idiots like Farage to the EU and send representatives to the EU who are actually going to work to try to positively change and steer the EU for the benefit of the UK and all the member states. There is nothing to stop us going through the process again in five years time if it doesnt work out. Now is not the time.

As far as I am concerned though, Brexit is not the only option to get behind, even if we actually do go ahead and leave.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

erneboy said:


> I can't answer for everybody Kev but one before we leave would be enough for me, for a while till we saw how it went. Though it wouldn't immediately change my mind if leave won again.
> 
> Of course if the brexiters turned out to be right and the UK began to thrive outside the EU I, along with the other remainers, would soon discover that we were wrong.
> 
> As you are granting the vote it follows that you see two options, not just one possibility. You are on one side of that debate and I'm on the other. Both positions are valid.


Right now I'm not sure which way I'd vote, so much conflicting views.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Exactly. Thats why you need a list of facts Kev when we have some. Then you can decide if its for you or not rather than just having a load of ****e written on the side of a bus or the xenophobic bile spouted by UKIP or indeed figures and speculation by experts for a bit of balance.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I'll be taking no notice of ukip Barry.


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

barryd said:


> Why do you think everyone is so up in arms about it?


Sorry but who is up in arms about what? The Brexiteers who are getting fed up with Remainers wanting another referendum or the Remainers wanting one? If it's the Remainers then let's not overlook the recent polling that said over 2/3rds of the country now supports leaving.



barryd said:


> The logical thing to do would be to remain for say five years, stop sending idiots like Farage to the EU and send representatives to the EU who are actually going to work to try to positively change and steer the EU for the benefit of the UK and all the member states.


Farage has been democratically elected as an MEP. Are you suggesting we should ignore that Barry?


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

Why is every thread turned into a Brexit one?:frown2:

Back on track!:smile2:

What have you decided to do Barry,fulltime.rent out your house,sell and buy a holiday home?
Or just go off for a 6 months tour of Europe?:smile2:


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## emjaiuk (Jun 3, 2005)

People always seem to think that we live in a democracy. But with the British voting system that doesn't happen. Can any one tell me of a goverment that was elected by the majority of the population? The problem with Brexit is that as usual people lie about the result. The majority of the population didn't vote to leave, just a small majority of those who bothered to vote. And for those who say people get the goverment they deserve, that often does' do the country much Google.

None of this will change until we change our system. 

First and foremost it should be compulsory to mark a ballot paper. Note I didn't say vote, and the postal voting system covers those who for any reason can't attend a polling station. If people choose to live in and benefit from a society they should at least take some responsibility for it.

Secondly there should some form of proportional voting. It cannot be right that vast numbers of people do not have a chance of their voices being heard because of where they live.

Thirdly there should be a law against false and misleading claims of fact during an election. A classic case is the claim that a sum equal to our gross contribution to the EU would immediately be transferred to the NHS.


Malcolm


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

peribro said:


> Sorry but who is up in arms about what? The Brexiteers who are getting fed up with Remainers wanting another referendum or the Remainers wanting one? If it's the Remainers then *let's not overlook the recent polling that said over 2/3rds of the country now supports leaving.*
> 
> Farage has been democratically elected as an MEP. Are you suggesting we should ignore that Barry?


That is simply not true Peter and you know it. We discussed it before. Some remainers have said that they respect the decision of the referendum but their views have not changed, they still dont want to leave the EU. You can wrap it up anyway you like but at best the country is still divided and at best only half of us want to leave. I suspect its actually less than that now given the huge amount of young people that didnt vote but the ones that did voted to remain by over 75%. A year on with many more eligible to vote how many more would vote remain. Face it Peter you do not want a second referendum or for the public to have a vote on the final deal which logically makes real sense because you know full well that it will no longer be the will of the people. Just admit it and stop talking about democracy etc.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

jo662 said:


> Why is every thread turned into a Brexit one?:frown2:
> 
> Back on track!:smile2:
> 
> ...


Well I simply mentioned that any decisions have been put on hold because of Brexit, Kev turned it into another Brexit debate.  Its true though. I wont be investing in anything or considering moving abroad until we know what the outcome is or how it all ends. Everything is in limbo as far as I am concerned as I honestly think it is all going to go badly wrong. We dont even know what the fate will be of our citizens who are already living in mainland Europe and it looks highly likely that our movement as travellers in mainland Europe will be restricted as it is for other none EU countries currently. Hardly a good time to consider a move or even a holiday home IMO sadly.


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

jo662 said:


> Why is every thread turned into a Brexit one?:frown2:
> 
> Back on track!:smile2:
> 
> ...





barryd said:


> Well I simply mentioned that any decisions have been put on hold because of Brexit, Kev turned it into another Brexit debate.  Its true though. I wont be investing in anything or considering moving abroad until we know what the outcome is or how it all ends. Everything is in limbo as far as I am concerned as I honestly think it is all going to go badly wrong. We dont even know what the fate will be of our citizens who are already living in mainland Europe and it looks highly likely that our movement as travellers in mainland Europe will be restricted as it is for other none EU countries currently. Hardly a good time to consider a move or even a holiday home IMO sadly.


You should of been a politician Barry,you never give a straight answer!>>>


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I see. Well in that case yes we have decided to go off at the moment and just tour Europe for a few months. (While we still can  )


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Go easy on all those rich foods then Barry.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

barryd said:


> Kev turned it into another Brexit debate.


Ouch, I have already linked to the first mention, and it wasn't moi :kiss::kiss:


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Ouch, I have already linked to the first mention, and it wasn't moi :kiss::kiss:


I simply mentioned in a thread about leaving the rat race that it was Brexit that has put that on hold because its a fact. What am I supposed to do? Make something else up to answer Rays and others questions when the thread was resurrected?

It was you that then threw down the Gauntlet here. http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/20...est-scheme-escape-rat-race-4.html#post2598418

This happens all the time on here, its often one of the Brexiteers that will stir up an old thread and bring it back to life then they complain when there is a reaction that its spoiling the forum which is something I just dont get to be honest as what it really means is stop talking Brexit down, you lost etc.

I dont have a problem discussing it though Kev, in fact I welcome the opportunity to expose it for the madness that it is.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

oh FFS.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

barryd said:


> I simply mentioned in a thread about leaving the rat race that it was Brexit that has put that on hold because its a fact. What am I supposed to do? Make something else up to answer Rays and others questions when the thread was resurrected?
> 
> It was you that then threw down the Gauntlet here. http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/20...est-scheme-escape-rat-race-4.html#post2598418
> 
> ...


Fine discuss away, but you and a few others seem to like introducing it into any thread where you think it'll get a reaction, then somehow it's someone elses Idea, err no Barry, you bring it up, it's your fault.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

So why did you then bring up a whole load of questions about Brexit then Kev? I mentioned it as a genuine reason for not investing or moving abroad as part of the thread. I wasnt inviting a debate about Brexit so why did you feel the need to divert the thread towards a load of questions regarding Brexit? Im not taking the blame for this one, not that I actually care. Here is another one! Thread about flipping lorry drivers! Is that my fault as well? http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/20...lashing-lorry-drivers-after-overtaking-2.html

Personally I would prefer if a Mod cut and pasted all the recent activity from my first recent post to now and put it into the now dead Brexit Facts thread. I preferred it all in there to be honest as it kept the complainers (cough, Brexiteers) at bay.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I've lost the plot on this, but go back to page 7 or wherever and see who said what, I recall it differently.


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

barryd said:


> I see. Well in that case yes we have decided to go off at the moment and just tour Europe for a few months. (While we still can  )


So whats you plan Barry and when does the adventure begin?:smile2:

I do enjoy reading about your adventures,and look forward to when we can take
a little longer than two weeks touring round Europe!:grin2:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Yes let's get back on topic, I can't wait for Barfy to bugger off and start his 2017 tale  

Moreover I can't wait to get off on a trip too, not happening anytime soon though


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Dont worry Kev. Now that the EU have flattened roaming rates it should be easy for me to login and check up on you every day! Guffaw!  (I just cant help myself)

Was supposed to have been 15th June but its now delayed until the week after because of a job. 

Plan is, Moselle in Germany for a few days then down the Romantic road (ish) and into Austria, maybe do the Austrian lakes again possibly. Then over to Venice then the Italian Alps and maybe a few lakes but its going to be peak season by then so probably over to the French Alps, Lac st Croix and the Verdon Gorges (Again), Cote D'Azur (Probably St Tropez area but inland) then just work our way across Provence, Ardeche, Tarn etc and if time down to the Pyrenees before slowly heading north Through the Lot and Dordogne towards Calais. Hopefully not back until end of October all being well.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

barryd said:


> Dont worry Kev. Now that the EU have flattened roaming rates it should be easy for me to login and check up on you every day! Guffaw!  (I just cant help myself)
> 
> Was supposed to have been 15th June but its now delayed until the week after because of a job.
> 
> Plan is, Moselle in Germany for a few days then down the Romantic road (ish) and into Austria, maybe do the Austrian lakes again possibly. Then over to Venice then the Italian Alps and maybe a few lakes but its going to be peak season by then so probably over to the French Alps, Lac st Croix and the Verdon Gorges (Again), Cote D'Azur (Probably St Tropez area but inland) then just work our way across Provence, Ardeche, Tarn etc and if time down to the Pyrenees before slowly heading north Through the Lot and Dordogne towards Calais. Hopefully not back until end of October all being well.


Pm me coords of any decent wilding spot if you can, we may get over there at some point.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Should we start a sweepstake on where or how you break something Barry.:grin2::grin2: work has not completely dried up then, or is it a charity job.>> never mind, I think envy has reared it's ugly head.:frown2::frown2:


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Work always dries up in the summer (I dont do charity jobs!) its just dried up a lot earlier this year. Of course Ill break something. Who doesnt on a long trip? Ive just spent over £1000 revamping injectors and a whole load of other stuff so fingers crossed it will be fine although you have probably given it the kiss of death now Cabby.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

My mistake, I thought you said your main customer was a charity. It was as I said mainly sour grapes on my part. Go have a wonderful trip, but go easy on the beer.:grin2::grin2:


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

cabby said:


> My mistake, I thought you said your main customer was a charity. It was as I said mainly sour grapes on my part. Go have a wonderful trip, but go easy on the beer.:grin2::grin2:


They are indeed a charity Phil but they are also my biggest earner. Yes the beer is a tricky one. Germany, Austria and France (not sure about Italian beer) the best beer in the world and I have to try and avoid it. Bit like putting a Wolf in a chicken coup.


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## suedew (May 10, 2005)

Barry, my son's mate got his class 1, now spends 6 months of the year abroad drinking with his wife, and 6 months at home agency driving and detoxing, 
Worth a thought?

Sue


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Barry

Travel while you can

If you can afford it do it if it's what floats your boat

No pun intended 

Then you go for it

In my experience what you really want you find a way to do , sooner or maybe later

And let's be honest Brexit will not really be upper most in your mind when you peruse your dream 

That's the thing about dreams

I once dreamt I'd travel to Israel , it took six months, we walked a lot of it , booked two seats for five of us on transport , but we made it 

Dreams are peculiar things 

Sandra


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

suedew said:


> Barry, my son's mate got his class 1, now spends 6 months of the year abroad drinking with his wife, and 6 months at home agency driving and detoxing,
> Worth a thought?
> 
> Sue


I hate driving Sue. Well long distances anyway. I dread driving the van long distances. Why do you think it takes me so long to get anywhere in Europe. 

I like it once I get somewhere but that first 24 / 48 hours down to Dover then across or down through Europe is a PIA!

I dont mind what Im doing to be honest now so much as I did when I started this thread. Im semi retired and when work does come along its quite well paid. Nothing compared to what it used to be but then I go off travelling for months on end so its all a compromise. I would like to pack it in all together but while we are in this situation I cant see how thats possible which was the reason for starting the thread four years ago. It is what it is.


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