# Legionnaire's disease-a problem for motorhomers ?



## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

On the PM programme this afternoon ( 5pm Radio 4) there was an interview with a man who specialises in cleaning up ships after disease outbreaks. He was being interviewed about the recent outbreak of Legionnaire's disease on the cruise ship _Black Watch_ which is just about to dock in Dover after a cruise round the Baltic.

This man was asked if he had any idea how the Legionnella bacteria were picked up by the ship and he pointed out it could be anywhere as ships pick up their water supply from a number of sources and it then sits around in tanks for some time before use.

It occured to me that this could describe any one of us. We try to heat the van water so that the shower temperature is not less than 60deg C ,which I understand is the critical temperature for killing the bacteria, but I can't guarantee that will be so all the time and I don't know how much we can trust all campsites to do the same.

Has anyone ever heard of the disease being caught by campers or am I just unneccessarily concerned ?

G


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## vicdicdoc (May 14, 2005)

I wonder if a regular cleaning / flushing with 'Milton' or similar would alleviate the problem in our vans ?


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Sick Shipmates*

Legionnaire's disease as far as I am aware is usually as a result of poorly maintained Air Conditioning units.

However, this is a specific type of unit and not that used in motorhomes, cars, trucks, domestic homes and small offices.

It is usually caused by the bacteria being able to grow on the condensing units of large commercial buildings.

Indeed it got its name by killing a number of French Legionaires some time ago when it was discovred.

Trev


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

vicdicdoc said:


> I wonder if a regular cleaning / flushing with 'Milton' or similar would alleviate the problem in our vans ?


Just been reading more. Does not look likely and I'd be careful putting Milton in hot water tank:

_Legionellas are commonly found in small numbers in collections of fresh water, but there they probably do no harm. They can survive normal drinking water disinfection, and may enter the mains water supply for homes and industry. Once in the distribution system, they may multiply (particularly if the water temperature is favourable or if the system contains excessive sediment) and susceptible people may be exposed to the organism via sprays generated by water taps or shower heads. This is much less likely to be a problem in domestic water supplies because the turnover of the supply does not allow the water to stagnate and the legionellas to multiply.

Legionellas in the water supply or in air conditioning systems may be almost impossible to eradicate, but a series of control measures is recommended. Hot water should be stored at 60OC, although this may be difficult to achieve in older hot water systems which cannot be relied upon to store all the hot water at a consistent temperature. Cold water should be stored at 25OC or less, but with very large storage tanks this may not be possible at all times of the year. Air conditioning plants, including cooling towers and humidifiers, must be examined and cleaned regularly and all cooling towers must be registered with the local authority. Biocides and anti-scaling compounds may be added to the water. Water fittings and washers should not be made of material which encourages the growth of the organisms, and water distribution systems should be designed to avoid dead-ends which case water stagnation and allow multiplication of the organism._

G


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## ksebruce (Nov 5, 2006)

I think all potable water in UK is ok. Problem (again I think) is with tanks. I used to work for Corus (British Steel) all tanks were disinfected if that's the right word on an annual basis. I wonder if this is a requirement of H&S leglislation? So back to motorhomes I would disinfect my tanks and pipes at least once a year.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Sick Shipmates*



teemyob said:


> Legionnaire's disease as far as I am aware is usually as a result of poorly maintained Air Conditioning units.
> 
> However, this is a specific type of unit and not that used in motorhomes, cars, trucks, domestic homes and small offices.


And showers Trev.

Ken...see my quote above. "normal drinking water disinfection...."
The ship might well have picked up the bacteria in the Baltic.
Water in MH tanks does sit around long enough - and above 20 deg C - for growth to occur

G


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## castaway (May 1, 2006)

It's a scary thought, but lets face it we have been doing it for years and I am unaware of anyone going down with Legionnaires disease in a motor home. 

I think there is more to it than just using stored water, it only ever seems to effect larger systems like those in hospitals etc, and now the cruise liners.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Disease*

Well in short. NO

I do not think you have anything to worry about.

Here is a link

>>>Click ME<<<

However, as a precaution against this or any other bacteria that could build up in your system, I would suggest steralising the system from time to time.

I do ours once a year though I do use addatives to purify the water.

We do not use the water in the system for drinking. For this we bottle water from our filtered water supply at home and use this. If we are away for longer periods, we buy water for drinking from the supermarket.

Hope this helps?

Trev


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## whistlinggypsy (May 1, 2005)

G, don't know if was Legionnaire's disease but about 8 years ago one winter at a site in Altea (you may know the one) dozens of us caught a dreadful illness which nearly killed my wife, she ended up an a life support machine in villajoyosa hospital.

We all thought it was the benidorm flu but i really suspect it was down to the heating of the water in the showers, they where in a very poor state with continuos flowing water running down the drains from the first cubicle to the last (15 in all in a row ) and no proper ventilation

The ceiling was a continuos dripping of condensation, the coughing and spluttering of certain people and spitting into the drain was a great concern with us so much so we only went for a shower when there were few or no people using them.

We also like you heat our van water to maximum temperature before we have a shower, never drink it or use for cleaning our teeth and only use it for washing dishes again after heating the water fully.

The site has cleaned its act up somewhat now but we are always very wary of showering first thing in the morning when lots of people are using them.

Bob


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Its a good point grizzly

Shower systems for public use have to be engineered to empty the water in the line and you can get valves that do it automatically. Most CC sites have them you see a little squirt of water from the tap area when the tap is turned off this is the pipe up to the shower head emptying.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Disease*



teemyob said:


> Well in short. NO
> However, as a precaution against this or any other bacteria that could build up in your system, I would suggest steralising the system from time to time.
> 
> I do ours once a year though I do use addatives to purify the water.
> ...


Trev...you will not catch Legionnaires disease from drinking infected water. It enters the body as droplets in the spray from showers or from air conditioning or cooling systems. If you pick up water with Legionella bacteria in it then, unless that water is heated to over 60deg C ( and that is the temperature of the water leaving your shower head or the campsite shower head so the water in your tank must be heated to above that temperature to counter the cold it is mixed with ) you run the risk of infection.

Add to this that the cold water in your system is probably kept quite warm -either being close to a heater, in the sun or close to a hot road- and is there for several days at a time - unless you flush completely and regularly- then that water has plenty of places in a convoluted water system to stagnate. This is the water you spray from your shower.

Apparently "normal" disinfection is not a solution.

I'm sure UK systems - and that includes CC and C&CC sites and so on, are regularly inspected and checked, as are schools and work places but I am not so sure about small European campsites.

_If_ this infected water was picked up in a ship's supply point then why not in a campsite in ...well, anywhere ?

G
I reckon there is a risk frankly


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## safariboy (May 1, 2005)

Irrelevant; but it was not the French but the American legion after which the it was named. They were having a convention


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## andyman (Aug 31, 2006)

A friend of mine nearly died last year from legionella, the authorities said the shower in his RV was a possible cause. They carried out test's but they were inconclusive. So yes it is a possibility.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Corrected*

Okay G & Co.

I stand corrected. You learn something new everyday.

I must now add this to all the other horrors that await me when we are out in the van

Blow Outs
Being Gassed (OOOPS!)
Ticks
Snakes
Robberies
Insect Bites becoming infected
Road rage

Etc

I think you have more to worry about persoanly but I guess prevention is better than cure (where one exists).

Trev


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Corrected*



teemyob said:


> .
> 
> I must now add this to all the other horrors that await me when we are out in the van
> 
> Trev


You've missed being blown to kingdom come by an exploding battery, the squits from funny foreign food, Lyme's disease, veruccas......

Wonder any of us manage to survive really. Good thing we don't dwell on this though ! It's not enough to put me off thank goodness.



G


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## LPDrifter (Aug 17, 2005)

I have never heard of legionnaire's disease arising from a MH but I would think it is possible.

Not just legionnaire's but lots of other different nasty bacteria are a threat. These are just my common sense (as opposed to any great expertise in Motorhoming) guidelines

1) Periodically flush the system out with milton - at start of the year and a few more times also

2) As far as possible ensure the water supply you are using is good [someone mentioned in a post recently be wary of fresh water hose pipes that are too close to toilet disposal ... I have observed this at an aire where a previous user had left the place is disgraceful state]

3) Sometimes while on a trip, I completely drain the tank and take all new water instead of just topping up

4) Always dump the water as soon as I get home rather than leaving it in the tank

5) Even with that, we usually have bottled water for drinking or washing salad items.


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## sheringham (Mar 24, 2006)

*Water Tank Chlorination*

Cold water storage tanks should be kept below 20*C to prevent the formation and growth of bacteria.

Tanks are chlorinated with a solution of Sodium Hyperchloride (Concentrated Bleach) at the proportion of 50 parts per million to the volume of the water in the tank. Leave for 1 hour then flush out.

Shower heads should be removed regularly and submerged in a similar solution for 1 hour, flushed and refitted.

Ron


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## mygalnme (Jul 12, 2009)

Hi all, our neighbour got it by using a jacuzzi bath when already feeling unwell and thought it would help, but the jets hadn't been used for sometime. We were told by a plumber always switch the shower on first before you get under and let it run for a second or two even if it is used regularly before you get under it, so we do now whether in the MH or house.
Margaret


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

I worked until a year ago in a swimming pool.

Several times a year a man would come and clean/disinfect the shower heads.

We had standing orders to run every hot water tap for five minutes every day/week/month or whatever - it wasn't my job so I can't remember how often it was done.

It must have been effective because none of us ever caught Legionnaires disease.

Mark you, the elephant deterrrant was very effective too!


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## bigbazza (Mar 6, 2008)

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-83628-.html

See this recent post.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Local swimming pool was closed for over a year as they tried to source the legionaires desease.

it was entering via the water mains.

Strangley no other property on the street was infected.

dave p


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## Rodley (May 13, 2009)

Prior to retirement I was a microbiologist. Legionaires disease is primarily a respiratory infection acquired through infected aerosols, eg cooling systems using water that has been standing for a long time in the holding tank. The bacterium does not have high vuriulence and tends to infect people without some kind of impaired immunity. Ingestion is not generally a problem. 
Showers would be a possible way of getting the disease - if the water was not heated to kill the bacteria! However, cleaning the water tank every year without something like Milton's should prevent any problems through water-borne infections of any type, especially those caused by ingestion (eg drinking or washing your teeth with contaminated water).


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## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

Legionella bacteria can grow in a badly maintained, designed or installed hot water + shower system where there are pipework legs in which mains water remains for extended periods of time without being flushed through, or maintaining sufficient temperature to kill bacteria. (This was the cause of an outbreak of Legionaire's disease in a UK NHS hospital.) It should be considered a potential risk in campsite showers. 

So are the mozzies! :roll: 


SD


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

*disinfection of domestic water systems*

Hi All,

Interesting thread. As I was involved in the water industry for many years and the particularly legionella Rodley is correct in that it is no known risk by ingestion, only by breathing in tiny droplets of water from showers or vapour. Industrial and commercial premises are controlled by the Health and Safety at Work Act and the Approved Code Of Practice L8 which briefly means they have to assess the risk, put a system in to control it, keep records etc. but this does not apply to private domestic premises. It has long been a concern that domestic properties are at risk from legionella but I don't think any outbreaks have been attributed to them, but never the less it may be that they have never been reported Legionella and other microorganisms become attached to submerged aquatic surfaces where they live and multiply especially where there is stagnation or low turn over and the water temperature is allowed to become raised to 20 - 25 deg. C. In domestic premises where the hot water is cistern fed, it is good practice to disinfect plumbing systems regularly. Also to ensure that the storage cistern meets water regulation requirements (closed tightly fitting lid, screen air inlets and overflows and insulated against heat gain). To do this use sodium hypochlorite at 20 to 50mg/l the strength dependant on the contact time. My rapid release tablets will accurately do the job (see my blog) as a M/H is not far removed from a house. Shower heads should also be de-limescaled (use common vinegar;acetic acid) and disinfected.
I can prepare a tutorial for domestic plumbing if it is of help.

Regards,

Graham


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: Disease*



teemyob said:


> Well in short. NO
> 
> I do not think you have anything to worry about.
> 
> ...


Well we used to, now have a Naturepure water filter!

™


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

*Re: Sick Shipmates*



teemyob said:


> Legionnaire's disease as far as I am aware is usually as a result of poorly maintained Air Conditioning units.
> 
> However, this is a specific type of unit and not that used in motorhomes, cars, trucks, domestic homes and small offices.
> 
> ...


Sorry Trev but it wasn't the French Foreign Legion but the American Legion of Veterans. It happened in 1976 at a hotel conference in Philadelphia due to air conditioning. It was unknown before then but you can get it from any vapour or water droplet source including showers, Jacuzzis, even baths. It can't be contracted by ingestion. Water filters are OK but the filters need to be replaced at regular intervals or they won't be effective.

Graham


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## Otto-de-froste (May 20, 2005)

It would seem that there is a limited risk of Legionellosis from MH systems, but though aerosols would be most likely generated by shower heads, also consider that running kitchen taps on the first time out may cause air to be expelled until the pump has pulled water through.
This again can cause an aerosol as it coughs out the first drops of water.
I would be more concerned about using on-site sanitary facilities when they are not fully open (off season).

O


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

Otto-de-froste said:


> I would be more concerned about using on-site sanitary facilities when they are not fully open (off season).
> 
> O


That was my concern in the first place Otto. In UK there are all sorts of regulations about water temperature on campsites etc but that does not seem to apply in many places.

We're reassured that all Greek campsites - so far- seem to have scalding hot water. It seems to be mainly solar heated with gas back up.

G


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## blondy (Aug 23, 2007)

As has been said, the droplets have to be breathed in not swallowed. a lot is to do with the temperature of the stored hot water, this has to be stored above a certain temp,
this is usualy acheaved by heating the water to well above the danger level and then fitting a mixer valve to add cold water, which is safe, near the hot water storage and supplying the water to outlets at a safe temperature,
simplesss.


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## doug285 (Apr 30, 2008)

Just thought I would bring this to your attention.

http://uk.autoblog.com/2010/06/14/windscreen--water-could-cause-legionnaires-disease/

Probably nothing to worry too much about, but a head's up is always useful.


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Washers*

I heard about the possible windscreen washer connection last week on Radio 2.

Russell


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

*cleaning water tanks*

Hi all,

I have had a few enquiries about the frequency of cleaning the tanks including legionella. So I have added a post on my blog here

hope it is of interest.

Regards,

Graham


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## baldlygo (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: Washers*



Rapide561 said:


> I heard about the possible windscreen washer connection last week on Radio 2.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/10293519.stm

Paul


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## TR5 (Jun 6, 2007)

*Re: cleaning water tanks*



zappy61 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have had a few enquiries about the frequency of cleaning the tanks including legionella. So I have added a post on my blog here that may be of interest.
> 
> ...


Click on your link, and you get this:

_You do not have permission to preview drafts._

If per tablet treats 50 litres, how long do you leave the treated water in, and, by how much should you flush the tank/system before normal use?


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

*Re: cleaning water tanks*



TR5 said:


> zappy61 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi all,
> ...


Hi TR5, it should be OK now I was doing some amendments on the website.
As to your question, if your tank is 50 litres then 1 tablet for a minimum of 1 hour maximum 2 hours, this is a full treatment at 20mg per litre. In the article ' cleaning tanks - how often' I have tried to answer the 'how often' bit and this all depends on usage. The longer the drinking water tank stands idle the more it is likely it will need treating (see blog post). Conversely with grey tanks the more they are in use and the degree of organic matter, the more they will need treating (again see blog post). Legionella is killed almost immediately it comes into contact with the solution.

Hope this helps,

Graham


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## TR5 (Jun 6, 2007)

Hi Graham

Thanks. 2nd half of question unanswered though - how much do you flush the system after treatment, before it is safe to use - once, twice, ........


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

*cleaning water tanks*



TR5 said:


> Hi Graham
> 
> Thanks. 2nd half of question unanswered though - how much do you flush the system after treatment, before it is safe to use - once, twice, ........


Sorry TR2, fill the tank add the tablets, let it stand, empty via the tank drain off, refill and draw this water through system. Its at this point that if you want to add the tablets for the grey tank you can, and fill it with the water from the drinking water tank. If you don't want to do the grey tank just draw say, half a tank through the system and refill the drinking water tank and use.
Regards,

Graham


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

*Re: Cleaning tanks - how often?*

Hi Everyone,

Re done the Linky

Regards,

Graham


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## HeatherChloe (Oct 18, 2009)

LPDrifter said:


> 3) Sometimes while on a trip, I completely drain the tank and take all new water instead of just topping up
> 
> 5) Even with that, we usually have bottled water for drinking or washing salad items.


Good advice

I keep 6 x 1.5 litre case of evian in the van all the time, for drinking.

Good idea to dump the water before refilling, so that you have all new water.

In our block of flats, we have a tank for our water, and we have it tested at 6 monthly intervals by a testing company, to check no bugs of any kind are lurking there. If the samples are not tip top, the solution is to treat the tank with chlorine - so I guess the suggested Milton solution twice a year is also a good one.


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

HeatherChloe said:


> LPDrifter said:
> 
> 
> > 3) Sometimes while on a trip, I completely drain the tank and take all new water instead of just topping up
> ...


.

Hi heatherChloe,

All buildings under the control of a landlord have to abide by the ACOP 8 to prevent legionella outbreaks see this HSE advisory leaflet I do mine at least once a year with the Rapid Release tablets at 50mg/l for 1 to 2 hours.

Graham


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## relay (May 9, 2005)

The day after we got back from 3 weeks away in the van (Somerset/Devon/Dorset) Ern went down with Legionnaires' disease (not diagnosed immediately, but that's when he first got ill, so must have been caught while we were away). He's in hospital, very poorly, at the moment. Feeling a bit shell-shocked just now. 

-H


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

Nasty ! I'm glad to hear he's recovering. Presumably the wheels are in motion to check the water systems of the campsite you stayed at - ?

Best wishes to Ern and hope he's fine very soon.

G


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## bozzer (Jul 22, 2009)

So sorry to hear this and all the best to Ern.

Jan


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## relay (May 9, 2005)

Grizzly said:


> Nasty ! I'm glad to hear he's recovering. Presumably the wheels are in motion to check the water systems of the campsite you stayed at - ?
> 
> Best wishes to Ern and hope he's fine very soon.
> 
> G


Unfortunately, he's not recovering just yet. They're hoping "he'll turn a corner" (the doctor's words) in the next 2 or 3 days. He's in the HDU at the mo. We've been told to expect a visit from the public health people and that our van and the places we stayed (loads of them!! I'm not even sure I can remember all of the CLs we stayed at) will probably need to be looked at. Funny thing was, I disinfected our system for the first time, just before we went.

Thanks for the best wishes 

-H


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

*Cleaning Tanks and Legionaires disease.*

Hi H, I do hope Ern is getting better it is a very nasty bug. I do hope everyone realises that this is a real threat in M/H's and domestic properties but is so easily and cheaply prevented by disinfection of the water tanks using sodium hypochlorite. See here and here.
The legionella bacteria is eliminated almost immediately it comes into contact with sodium hypochlorite (chlorine).

Did you use any showers at the sites you stopped at?
Regards,

Graham


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

relay said:


> Unfortunately, he's not recovering just yet. .....
> 
> Funny thing was, I disinfected our system for the first time, just before we went.
> 
> ...


I'm sure you have the thoughts and prayers of all who are reading this and we all expect that Ern will be back online before very long.

I can't believe from all I have read on the subject that your van system is at fault; very much more likely that it is in the system of a campsite and will soon be tracked down.

G


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

relay said:


> Grizzly said:
> 
> 
> > Nasty ! I'm glad to hear he's recovering. Presumably the wheels are in motion to check the water systems of the campsite you stayed at - ?
> ...


I agree if you disinfected your tanks before you went its more likely to have originated from the camp site showers or an air conditioning unit or some type of water cooler. Commercial premises and employers have to comply with 
Approved ode Of Practice 8 So I guess all sites with showers from stored water systems would need to comply.

I do hope he is up and about soon.

Regards,

graham


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