# Leisure battery or engine battery? Confused!!



## kifiad (Aug 20, 2011)

Hi all,

Any guidance would be much appreciated here. Just rang A&N caravans in North Wales, with a view to having a second leisure battery installed in our Hymer B584, 1999 model, and also a new starter battery as ours doesn't seem to be holding charge unless we use the mh every couple of days. Any longer than this and we need to charge on hook up. A&N caravans basically said that starter batteries are far more effective than leisure batteries, and he recommended that as well as replacing the engine battery, we replace the existing leisure and the new to be second leisure with starter batteries. They said we would probably also need a new auxilery charger. He recommended I read the section on battery technology on their website www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk Have done this and from what they say looks like a good idea. Seemed like a knowledgable and genuine guy, some people on the forum have used them before.
Any thoughts much appreciated


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

After advice like that.............get yourself a new supplier and search on this site for info,

tony


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## Fatalhud (Mar 3, 2006)

I have also read that Silver cadmium/start stop type batteries are also well suited for leisure use

Alan H


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

kifiad said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Any guidance would be much appreciated here. Just rang A&N caravans in North Wales, with a view to having a second leisure battery installed in our Hymer B584, 1999 model, and also a new starter battery as ours doesn't seem to be holding charge unless we use the mh every couple of days. Any longer than this and we need to charge on hook up. A&N caravans basically said that starter batteries are far more effective than leisure batteries, and he recommended that as well as replacing the engine battery, we replace the existing leisure and the new to be second leisure with starter batteries. They said we would probably also need a new auxilery charger. He recommended I read the section on battery technology on their website www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk Have done this and from what they say looks like a good idea. Seemed like a knowledgable and genuine guy, some people on the forum have used them before.
> Any thoughts much appreciated


Walk away from them. Quickly.

Go and find any battery supplier who actually knows his arse from his elbow. It doesn't even have to be a Motorhome/caravan dealer, just a good battery supplier.


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## rayrecrok (Nov 21, 2008)

> GEMMY"]After advice like that.............get yourself a new supplier and search on this site for info,
> 
> tony


+1

ray.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

All depends on what you have running off the vehicle battery for a start. If it is the original battery then say your thanks and fit a new one. If it isn't very old, get the alternator checked.

Regarding leisure batteries, I tend to agree that a basic wet battery can be more effective and cheaper than the so-called leisure batteries.

Given proper care and charging, a basic wet battery can give a very good account of itself.

A good cheap 36A charger/shore supply is here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321317354295

We use the 26A versions and they are very good, if only single stage chareging, which is fine for all but a few installations.

Peter


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## rayrecrok (Nov 21, 2008)

Hey up.

A normal vehicle battery and a leisure battery are two completely different animals.

To advise a normal battery is ok to use might seem reasonable but they are designed to give a high amp starting load and are not meant to deep cycle where a leisure battery is designed to give the maximum number of deep cycles, that is what dictates the life expectancy of a battery, the number of cycles it gets..

ray.


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## Fatalhud (Mar 3, 2006)

They are not talking about normal vehicle batteries, they are talking about the new start/stop type battery that have different characteristics to normal vehicle batteries 
http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

Alan H


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

rayrecrok said:


> Hey up.
> 
> A normal vehicle battery and a leisure battery are two completely different animals.
> 
> ...


Ray:

Show me a deep cycle/Leisure battery that isn't marked up as such, and show me the difference between that and a conventional wet battery. You'd be hard pushed to see any significant differences.

'Leisure Battery' and 'Deep Cycle' are terms not used outside of the caravan/motorhome market, and are another word for 'Rip Off'.

The only real development on the past few years has been Lead-Calcium technology, but almost everyone has that now anyway.

A wet battery is far more tolerant of over discharge than any sealed battery on the market.

Peter


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Fatalhud said:


> They are not talking about normal vehicle batteries, they are talking about the new start/stop type battery that have different characteristics to normal vehicle batteries
> http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php
> 
> Alan H


From that.....



> Yet many Motorhomes have Inverters of up to 3,000watts drawing almost 300amps


Really? Hands up all those with an inverter that big.

Or is that careful use of (the meaningless) "up to" so that ANY use of ANY inverter counts?


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Peter.

Thanks for the experts eye view!! I have always been more than a bit suspicious about "Leisure" batteries and you have now confirmed my long held belief that at lead acid battery is a lead acid battery and that providing you look after them (solar panel to keep them charged etc) then they will last longer than most people keep their MH's

By stop/start batteries I am assuming we are talking about the items fitted to cars that are configured to switch the engine off whilst at traffic lights and re-start when the clutch is depressed?? I can see that they would require a lot of initial oomph but I bet they cost a LOT more than the ordinary item

Andy


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

I don't think the batteries are that much more specialised for 'Stop-Start', they will have more AH and the alternator and starter motor will be uprated as well.

Going to Silver-Zinc or another technology is about packaging and toxicity, otherwise they'd go straight to Nickel-Cadmium.

Peter


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I agree with Peter and so does Charles Sterling 




unless perhaps you intend fulltiming off hook up, Alan.


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

A&N Caravans were giving you good advice. They do know what they are talking about and that advice will save you money without risk or performance issues.

The article on their website is well thought out and based good science. I can only assume that those who disagree with what it says have not read it.

Thanks Peter.


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## rayrecrok (Nov 21, 2008)

Hey up.

Ok I am ready to be convinced..

Show me a normal engine battery that will cycle 600 / 800 times that a not very expensive £70 / £90.. 110 amp hour range leisure battery fit and forget will take in it's stride..

There are the new dual use leisure batteries for caravans that have movers on the market now, but are not relevant to us motor home users...

ray.


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## Whatton (Feb 1, 2010)

rayrecrok said:


> Hey up.
> 
> Ok I am ready to be convinced..
> 
> ...


You haven't read the article have you? They aren't talking about a normal engine battery.

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

Read it, it makes a lot of sense.


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## rayrecrok (Nov 21, 2008)

Hey up 

Ok I have read it but I can't see where it says they do between 600 to 800 cycles, maybe me!. It also appears to say if you are using a Sterling type charger and the battery is inside they are not suitable, once again it maybe me!, oh and the physical size is not suitable (for my van).

So...

ray.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

from there own website:

"A & N Motorhome and Caravan Services do not profess to being experts in battery technology. This should be borne in mind when reading the above which is designed to stimulate the reader to do their own research."

That paragraph was added after a lot of words, in bold type.

My impression was that they had an 'in-depth' briefing from a Bosch salesman.

I, like 'A & N' am no expert, but listening to their blurb and Peter's advice, plus Ray's pragmatism, I am happy to carry on with my set-up; 

I have two lead/acid vented batteries for leisure. On the move, they are charged via a Sterling B2B, and we move frequently but not very far on most days. We do not use campsites so no EHU except all the time at home.

I think this sort of usage where the batteries are kept nearly fully-charged means that normal lead/acid batteries are adequate and last a reasonable year/cost time.

Geoff


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## rayrecrok (Nov 21, 2008)

Hey up..

As far as a battery by any name but one that runs the domestic side on the motor home and has to cope with very deep cycles of charge and discharge, and spends a lot of it's life at the discharged end of the cycle I will stick with tried and tested.

If the van spends it's life on the end of an EHU stick any old battery on, in fact an old knackered one will do, you only need a battery to regulate the 12 volt side topped up all the time by the 240volts... But use your van as it is designed to do and be able to function off EHU and make things work and give you enough power off EHU for a long time and give you the best life span of 600 to 800 cycles and a good selection of batteries of various sizes and amperages to suit your van battery compartments, I think we are still in the realms of an existing leisure battery system..

So I am not convinced in a motor home situation, maybe they are not that good a buy, other situations fill your boots they may work wonderfully..

If someone came up with a cardboard one that gave the above performance I would be straight in and get one, I am not a luddite, FF's I have an ipad :lol: :lol: :lol: 

So!.

ray.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

There are two measures of battery life in the industry:

1) Cyclic Life
This is the number of Charge/Discharge cycles that a battery will achieve before its capacity retention falls below the level specified by the battery manufacturer, normally 80% of original capacity.

Note that most people keep batteries until the are just about scrap.

2) End Of Life Capacity
That point in a battery's life where its capacity falls below 80%. See note above.

'600-800 cycles' really needs a bit more information as to what discharge level they are going down to and how quickly they are recharged.

If a cycle is only 30% discharged with 70% remaining, then most batteries would eat that without too much trouble.

If the cycle is 50% then you are getting into the realms of the better quality batteries and better quality material.

If the cycle is 80% discharge with 20% capacity left then very few batteries would do that, especially Lead-Acid.

It is easy to provide 'headline' figures that catch the eye, but the small print is what matters.

So much battery production is far east now, and so many people buy in by the container load and put their own name on, that I'd just as easily buy a cheap battery and take a chance as spend double the money for something else with a brand name.

Peter


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## rayrecrok (Nov 21, 2008)

> listerdiesel"]There are two measures of battery life in the industry:
> 
> 1) Cyclic Life
> This is the number of Charge/Discharge cycles that a battery will achieve before its capacity retention falls below the level specified by the battery manufacturer, normally 80% of original capacity.
> ...


Hey up.

And there's the rub!.. If you find a make that does what it says on the tin.. Stick with it.

ray.


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

I doubt if you need to supplement your Electroblok charger as mine quite happily runs 3 batteries in my 2000 B584 but you will have to be careful to get the correct setting on the gel or "lead acid"(whatever it's called) switch.


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

I cannot commend Allan at A&N Caravans highly enough. His knowledge of batteries, chargers and related equipment seems to be way ahead of most "experts". Based on his advice I am in the process of replacing my "traditional" leisure batteries with two silver- calcium "car" batteries. As has been pointed out, his articles on his website go into some detail about the technical details. I have also spoken to two battery suppliers to confirm that their views on silver calcium batteries are consistent with Allan's. So saying I believe that the type of charger is an important consideration.


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## kifiad (Aug 20, 2011)

Thanks everyone for all your feedback. Still undecided 8O Found it confusing initially. Now totally confused!! Will probably err on the side of caution and go with leisure batteries. Not in a rush so will keep on reading. We are newbies (and I'm no mechanic or electritian)!! Only had our mh since October. Had a mazda bongo before. Planning to go away for a year in July, envisage being off ehu a lot of the time. Any more feedback most welcome, thanks again


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

Which bit do you find confusing?


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

BillCreer said:


> I doubt if you need to supplement your Electroblok charger as mine quite happily runs 3 batteries in my 2000 B584 but you will have to be careful to get the correct setting on the gel or "lead acid"(whatever it's called) switch.


Bill:

GEL batteries ARE Lead-Acid, it's just the technology of the battery construction that makes them different to wet Lead-Acid types.

GEL
VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead-Acid)

All are Lead-Acid.

The settings you refer to are the voltages for the different types of battery.

Peter


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Note that charging voltages for Silver-Calcium batteries are higher than for conventional Lead-Acid types, Ford for example has a Technical Bulletin out on their cars to say that conventional batteries must not be fitted as the alternator output is too high for them.

Peter


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

listerdiesel said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> > I doubt if you need to supplement your Electroblok charger as mine quite happily runs 3 batteries in my 2000 B584 but you will have to be careful to get the correct setting on the gel or "lead acid"(whatever it's called) switch.
> ...


Yes Peter I was being lazy. I was trying to explain the switch which says "gel" and the opposite to gel but in German on the Elektroblok unit.

For many years I used UPSs in Data Centres, some like the ones that you install, so I have a reasonable working knowledge of different types of battery stacks.


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