# Gas Attacks (with poll added!)



## 89281

Looking in the back of various motohome magazines I see adverts for devices that detect gas - not propane/butane but sleeping gas. These adverts claim that gas attacks from intruders on the increase. 8O

I also saw a letter in one of the magazines from someone saying they were nearly victims. Apparently, these intruders remove the seal from around the quarter light then let themselves into the van. They then spray the gas into the van to knock out the occupants whilst they, wearing gas masks, steal all the worldly goods. The editor of the magazine did say that he hadn't heard of these attacks happening to anyone and I wonder if it is just advertising hype. The detectors are about £130 which sounds a bit steep to me.

As newbies we probably won't go wild camping for a while yet but I was wondering what other peoples views are.


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## 90473

Hi there muncy,

lots of 'stories' on the subject and I'm a natural cynic anyhow but I think you've hit the proverbial nail on the bonce when you question if a lot isn't down to clever marketing.

I'm a bit of a part time heavy trucker (in the truck sense, not me personally) and these stories started to appear in the trucking press also. I've spoken to dozens of guys on various ferries and I've yet to come across a victim of gas attacks (victims of dodgy P&O curries aplenty but that's a whole different gas attack .

There are lots of documented crimes against road users in general including thefts of vehicles/accessories/contents etc. and I (cynical self) cannot see the point of all that trouble (expensive narcotic gases, gas masks, risk of discovery) when the criminally motivated can simply pick out unoccupied vehicles for easier spoils. 

As I said before, 'lots' on the subject including many posts on here. It's really down to the individual as to whether the perceived threat warrants a fancy gadget.


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## 89905

hello
I have last week had a alarm fitted in my motorhome on advise from the company I had two gas alarms fitted one high in the motor and one low to detect different types of gas.
all this may be a urban myth like the head been banged on the roof of the car when your camping as a kid but I dont want to take the risk .
we have all had the storys has it happened to anyone on the forum ??
see you on the road
twodogs


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## androidGB

The best response I have seen to this subject was from a consultant anaesthetist with over 20 years of experience. He stated that even when administering gas through a mask it is very difficult to apply the precise amount to keep the patient unconscious without giving too much, and you have to accurately monitor oxygen levels at all 

His opinion was to administer it directly into a motorhome to achieve the desired effect would require a huge amount of gas and would be impossible to do without frequent fatalities.

What is the sum total of fatalities recorded?

I rest my case


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## Anonymous

I wondered that last time you mentioned it Android. Also, with most people sleeping with roof vents open it would simply rise though if lighter than air or sink to the floor if heavier.


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## 89281

Thanks Guys

I wouldn't blame anyone for being cautious but the general opinion seems to confirm my opinion. :thumbup:


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## Anonymous

I have done some algebra and have calculated that this is the amount of gas that is required to send someone to sleep in an average C class motorhome. Obviously, there are some plus or minus intangibles - wind etc.

http://www.hms-juno.co.uk/shell.jpg


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## 88781

As you say Pusser, but some of the tangibles can not be accounted for







well you did say wind! :roll:


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## Anonymous

I have seen before when people have said that it would be dificult to give people the right amount of gas, however from press reports I read the aim is to just get somebody in a bit deeper sleep than they already are, especially if youv'e had a good meal & alchol. Some report of using engine starting spray through the vans cab air vents. I would be interested to know how much gas could be sprayed into a van using this method & how effective it would be, not forgetting that they are not trying to put a fully concious person to sleep but just induce a deeper sleep than you are already in. It would also be logical to that these attacks would happen when you have been asleep a few hours.


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## Anonymous

Using Mandy and Daves theory, we would be asleep for a few weeks.


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## androidGB

Kontiki said:


> especially if youv'e had a good meal & alchol.


In those words I think you have stated the real reason for all of these "gas attacks".

A combination of sun, heavy meals, too much booze, and a general feeling of well being induce a state of drowziness,

When the occupants awake they have symptoms of nausea, headache,dehydration, partial memory loss (now, when I have experienced those same symptoms?) and find the door unlocked and some valubles missing.

What looks best on an insurance report we were the victims of a gassing attack, or we were "arsed" and forgot to lock the door before we fell asleep


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## Anonymous

*My opinion*

As a Medical Doctor myself, I personally feel these gas attacks are somewhat "Urban Myths" Given the amount of anesthetic that would be required to fill a motorhome, given the amount of ventilation points in a motorhome, would make it highly unlikely on two fronts. The first being quantity, you would require a terrific amount of the stuff, and trying to get the oxygen mix correct would be extremely difficult. Secondly the cost, Anesthetic (any type) is not cheap and not very readily available. Given the small amount of gain they are going to achieve from robbing a motorhome must outweigh the cost of the product.

My personal opinion, and may I say it is merely my personal opinion, is that this gassing myth has all to do with pride. If you awake in the morning after a heavy days drive and you find your motorhome has been robbed. It is much gentler on ones pride to tell the tale of how you were gassed and robbed, rather than say you slept through the whole event. It also makes a better story round the campfire!

Happy Camping

Stewart


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## androidGB

Stewart, it's good to have another medical man expressing their opinion.

I believe for the reasons already mentioned these stories have become an urban myth.

But it's pretty sad that some companies have jumped on board to exploit them.

Particularly as a large proportion of motohomers are elderly and consider themselves more vulnerable


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## Anonymous

I don't really know the answer but I believe those who believe it urban myth have won the argument on several fronts.


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## Anonymous

It's a it like the Loch Ness monster, impossible to to prove it doesn't exist but easy to prove it does. Unless somebody is caught in the act with the neccessary equipment it is easy to say that every robbery that occurs & you wake up with a hangover must mean you were gassed :roll: the excess food & drink the night before were nothing to do with it.

The real point is people are targetted in expensive motorhomes as the pickings are likely to be good, also being on holiday we are perhaps less alert & don't have local knowledge. There is the added problem of trying to deal with local law enforcement in an different language. What is probably more suprising is that more of us aren't robbed, it is up to us to take our own precautions but also be vigilant looking out for others as these thieves have no morals as to who they steal from. It is likely that the thieves operate in their own local areas & warning others of these places would be useful.


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## 92076

I'm another consultant anaesthetist of (too) many years (hence ID) and I cannot believe that this situation ever really happened in the ways reported. Why go to all this trouble (potentially running the risk of killing the occupants - unlikely but the criminal would not know this) when the alternatives seem so much simpler.

Sorry - I'm another cynic -no gas alarm for me- except the wife who often complain!


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## 89429

*gas attacks*

It looks like another victory for the Daily Mail and Torygraph where these stories are believed to emanate from. 
Thank god that there are other papers to read who do not impose their political and moral imperatives on the rest of society.


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## Boff

Hi,

tracking down Nessie is a bit more difficult than proving gas attack myths to be wrong :wink: . I am not an MD, rather a physicist, but with the help of an anesthesist I did some time ago some calculation for a German motorhome forum:

If you want to flood an average motorhome with a very effective narcotic gas (e.g. Isoflurane) so that in the Luton the concentration is high enough to narcotize, then you need about 240 litres of gas, provided that the motorhome is absolutely airtight and the gas spreads homogeneously.
Both assumptions are incorrect, motorhomes are not airtight and all narcotic gases are heavier than air, so probably about 1000 litres would be needed.

Not exactly as much as Pusser suggests, but still quite a lot. And, by the way, as the gas does not spread homogeneously, it would almost certainly kill all inhabitants sleeping below the Luton level.

Engine starting spray mainly consists of Ether, and Ether has in fact been used as a medical narcotic not too long ago. However, being much less effective than modern narcotics, you would need about 14,000 litres (yes, fourteen-thousand!) of gaseous ether for the above mentioned purpose. That would mean about 40 litres of liquid ether. The average engine starting spray can contains 0.2 litres, so just figure out how many cans a thug would need...

In addition Ether is highly explosive, so just the content of 7 cans would suffice to blow up your entire motorhome! 8O 

So the only effective way for thugs would be to break into the motorhome first and then narcotize the inhabitants. But then, of course, any gas alarm device is futile...

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## androidGB

Great response Gerhard, let's hope that this puts an end to all the gassing stories, on this Forum at least


Andrew


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## 89429

everbodies gas is now at a peep! :lol:


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## Boff

A little correction to my previous posting:

Calculations were done for a total narcosis. If the goal is to increase depth of sleep for somebody already sleeping, then lower concentrations may suffice. 

Nevertheless, in the case of ether (engine starting spray) you still need to blow the contents of about 70 spray cans into an average-sized motorhome. And this in very short time, as it will flow out through every little hole it can find. And remember, 7 cans are sufficient for a big BANG.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## 89429

I find that baked beans< Guiness and curries are great for big bangs


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## BadlyOverdrawnBoy

docted said:


> I find that baked beans< Guiness and curries are great for big bangs


What's your van, docted? an Aromahome?


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## 89429

What's your van, docted? an Aromahome?

Yes, made by Hymer


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## Detourer

Oh dear......only just joined and seem to have a lot to say. I think it is all the interesting topics.

I live in Spain etc etc etc.............My son-in-law is a capt in Guarda Civil and use to/is cover coast area and has had postings from Gib to Granada. He has NEVER heard, or has seen a record, of a genuine case of "Gas" related theft. More than likley it's a combination of heavey sleep and skillful/silent bandits! Imagine, you awake, been robbed and can't beleave it happened while you were asleep.........must be a "gas" victim.........sorry, I don't think so. Best anti-theft. tremble alarm on door......I have used one to great effect when over in Mo..........sorry, will try not and mention that place again, but didn't even need it over there.


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## Texas

*Gas attack Fact or Fiction?*

 First off let me say that I can understand your cynicisms regarding the stories of gas attacks in France and other European countries. Also the link between these 'alledged' atttacks and the manufacturers of gas detecting equipment.

I too would have been one of your loyal following except for the unfortunate fact that I, or I should say, my wife and I were victims of a burglary, yes burglary, on one of the French Aire de Repose. Whether they used gas or not is debatable.

I was awakened by my wife at 3am who informed me that the side door was open, and that she thought someone was standing outside. I immediately got up and went outside...I did have my shorts on. Of course there was no-one to be seen. As it was beginning to get light I decided to have a look around. I found the door had been forced.

Returning to the van my wife informed me that the 35mm and the video camera bags, her handbag and most distressing of all, her fully refilled (from the ferry) vanity case had all disappeared. Luckily ( he must have had a heart) the thief left our passports and credit card along with the empty vanity case under the van. From the telephone box which was located close by, I rang the police. A somewhat tired voice answered.

After discovering that he spoke good english I related my story to him, half expecting to be told that someone would be with me forthwith. He proceeded to inform me that if I called round to the police staion after 8.30am -they didn't open until then- they would take a statement.

The visit to the police station is a story worthy of the best comedy writers. But that will have to wait for another time, suffice to say that the sergeants parting words "It's the first time we have heard of that kind of incident"

Why then, the following year, were the CRS police touring Aires informing would be sleepovers to be on their alert, as they had been having trouble for a number of years with gas attacks and burglaries?

They do happen, believe me.


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## Bazbro

There can be a huge difference between an "allegation" and what really happened. Just because people allege that they have been drugged, does not make it so. A proper investigation (sadly lacking in these cases, it seems) would reveal the veracity, or otherwise, of these wild allegations.

Apart from the 'embarrassment factor' of admitting to having your m/home burgled whilst you slept in it, there's always the insurance claim to be dealt with. If you were negligent in guarding your own property, the company may refuse to pay out. On the other hand, if you were the victim of a 'gas attack'.......

A healthy dose of scepticism never hurt anyone. "It didn't happen until it has been proved that it did (and even then it might not have happened!)"

Barry


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## Boff

Hi Texas,

sorry if it gave you this impression, but nobody wants to be cynical here. Especially not regarding this very serious topic. Some people in this forum here (like me) have already become victims of burglars.

Of course, burglaries do happen. No one puts that in doubt.

But what I do not believe are all stories about thugs narcotizing motorhome inhabitants by flooding the van with some peculiar "K.O.-Gas" _from outside_. I don't believe it because it is just physically impossible! Except if real huge amounts of gas are used, so much that it can almost be taken for certain that either some of the inhabitants are poisoned to death or the whole van just explodes before narcotizing gas concentrations are reached.

By the way, what you said about French police sounds very familiar to me. Four years ago our car (we were still travelling with a tent at that time) was completely robbed out in Alsace while we just left it unattended for about 10 minutes in bright daylight. And the reaction of the police was quite similar... 

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Texas

*Gas atacks in Aires*

I do not believe we were gassed, simply because the volumes required would have been ignited by our gas fridge burner jet. What I think happened the cheeky b******ds took advantage of my snoring...and on the down beat forced the door a bit more, a one, and a two, and a one, and a two, etc, etc,.

Never take life too seriously,

Regards

Texas

PS This incident happened in 2002 since when we have had no more probs. I defy anyone to try and get into my van now, without making such a noise it could not fail to wake even I.


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## eurajohn

Hi Texas

Really sorry to hear of your misfortune, as the others have stated, to my understanding no one has suggested that robberies don't take place, I personally know of a few all across Europe (with some in the UK!) it's just the gas element that is in doubt.

As to the French police, my only experience was after my camper was broken into in a car park in Narbonne, it was of every effort being made to help us and apprehend the villains. 

I would advise the fitting of a good quality alarm system that has door switches fitted and allows the activation whilst you are inside the van (can immobilise the internal movement sensors).

Don't let it spoil your enjoyment of France though.

John.


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## 88781

Pusser said:


> Using Mandy and Daves theory, we would be asleep for a few weeks.


 "Dutch Oven" suddenly springs to mind... 8O


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## Detourer

*I have a picture...*

In my mind I have a picture of a couple of "Bandit" types.........stripey T-shirt and all, creaping around some site or car-park carrying a huge gas cylinder, lengths of hose, gas masks, tools and bag for the "goodies". And how come a gas victim has never found the empty cylinder, or a heap of easy-start cans? No, I don't think so. I was burgled once. Got away with my jeans, and contents of, shoes, T-Shirt. All left ready for them on the floor, by the door..........BUT, it was MY fault, with a bit of help from "Southern Comfort".

By the way. If you see anyone wearing faded Levis (34 inside leg), size nine Timberland boots, I Love NY cap, hanging around a cashpoint don't bother to call the Malaga cops. Just get the t-shirt back..........There's a reward!


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## Anonymous

I must confess as a newbie to motorhoming I have been took in by all these horror stories regarding these alleged gas attacks. So much so I was on the brink of sending off for one of these Sopa Alarms that are advertised which is designed to detect this so called sleeping gas ..... the price is approx £135.00. After reading all of the posts on here I am now going to save my money and put it towards some better locks on the doors etc. We have a thatcham approved alarm sytem fitted that you can leave on when you are in the vehicle - but allows you switch off the motion sensor when the van is occupied. However, if someone tries to force the locks from the outside the alarm is still is activated! Hopefully any would be crook would be frightened off if they tried to break in and the alarm went off but it would also wake us up and enable us to take preventative action immediately! 

After reading the posts it is quite logical really when you actually think about it that these attacks must be just a myth - because surely the disrecarded evidence of such gas cannisters or sprays used would be found at the scene of the crime from time to time and no-one has mentioned finding any such cans or cannisters etc. Another point is you would think some of these robbers would actually be caught in the act sooner or later wouldn't you? I mean it must take a good while to spray the amount of gas required into the vehicle in order to knock the inhabitants out and logic tells me that in the law of averages at least some of these robbers would be spotted hanging around someones vehicle for that amount of time! On a busy aire or service surely someone would witness something odd sooner or later and to believe that these villains can actually hang around outside your van - pumping gas in through the vents then carefully dispose of the vessels that contain the gas so as to not leave any evidence around (cos once in they would want their hands free to carry away the stolen loot wouldn't they?) and then make their getaway taking all evidence of this unknown gas with them! It would mean that they manage to do all this and never, ever alert any suspicion! No - when you actually weigh it all up it does all seem a little unbelievable doesn't it? I mean normally thieves in a hurry are not that careful are they? 

When you hear what the medically knowledgeable people who have posted on here have to say - you realise just how very difficult, dangerous and basically impossible this gas would be to administer safely. And to think that these villains are trained enough or more importantly responsible enough to even care enough about their victims to take the trouble to learn about how to adminster just enough doseage so as to not cause any serious harm or fatalities is just too far fetched to be even remotely plausable. Nope - after listening to what the medical opinions are - I think someone would have died by now if these gas attack stories were actually true and so far (thank goodness) there has been no reportings of any fatalities! Therefore. after taking into account all the evidence - it would seem that these gas attack victims have no actual proof they were in fact gassed!

I have no idea how these crooks are managing to rob people in their motor homes without disturbing them though and this is something that really, really does worry me as we are planning on travelling around Europe this winter and hopefully Morocco also and I want to make sure our vehicle is as secure as we can make it and so any advice, tips or recommendations would be most appreciated. I am not only worried about being robbed whilst we are asleep - I am also concerned about leaving the van unoccupied whilst we explore our surroundings etc. So if you know of any good security devices or locks please let me know.

Thanks

Sonesta

Sonesta


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## Jeffus

Sonesta said:


> I must confess as a newbie to motorhoming I have been took in by all these horror stories regarding these alleged gas attacks. So much so I was on the brink of sending off for one of these Sopa Alarms that are advertised which is designed to detect this so called sleeping gas ..... the price is approx £135.00. After reading all of the posts on here I am now going to save my money and put it towards some better locks on the doors etc.


Having been robbed (car) in South of France (us in Hotel that we have stopped at many times in the past) I can comiserate with Texas and anyone else finding themselves in that position. Really sorry to hear of your probs Tex. As you say the French police . . . well a farce is the only way to describe them.

My twopenneth on gas alarms . . . better to be safe than sorry. We had a Sopo Alarm fitted to our Bessie. Marquis fitted it for just over £100. I thought a small price to pay for peace of mind. Having said that when we were away (the last three weeks in England) we felt safe enough not to have it activated. It's nice to know though the alarm is there if we are at all apprehensive about our surroundings in the future. It's a bit like the alarm fitted to your van . . . how many leave it dissabled (when on site) even just for five mins when you go to the site shop or similar and leave it empty? Quite a few of us no doubt. It's not a jot of use if you don't use it. I have an aquaintance who got his motorhome broken in to on holiday in France. They got in through the toilet window he said. I'm suprised the alarm didn't go off I remarked. Oh it wasn't enabled he replied, we were only going for a meal at the site restaurant with the site owners????? Nuff said. Jeffus. 8)


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## Anonymous

The gas the robbers are using if they are is
"Easy Start" which contains Diethyl ether and Naphtha. 

Knocks you for six but on the plus side, the van always starts first time when you need to go to the police station.

p.s. New subject. (What is the term used when you change subject in a forum when you are not supposed to). I bough two plastic carbon monoxide testers. One I put in the kitchen and one I put in the office where the gas pipes enter the house. A while ago, the one in the office went from white to brown and I called the gas board out. The reason it had gone brown was because I smoke which is food for thought. I was also told that these will not detect gas leaks and so really this is a waste of time buying these for this purpose. It is likely that I am the only one on here that didn't know that but just in case there is one other muppet on the forum , I thought I would mention it.


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## 92086

Just read the whole of this thread and cannot resist having my say.

I first heard of gas attacks a couple of seasons ago when a friend, who is a policeman, told me it had happened to him whilst spleeping on a French Air. He recounted the usual story of waking up normally in the morning to find his caravan, in this case, door forced and wifes handbag missing. Not only that, but his travelling companions who were next to them in their own caravan had been similarly robbed. No evidence of the 'modus operandi' just the police who told them that thats whats happens!

I recall this same friend several years ago when we attended a special dinner (nothing to do with profession) We celebrated rather too heavily during which time my friend consumed a number of volovents (however you spell it). He was up half the night being ill and the following morning he insisted it was the volovents that had made him ill. Now pardon me but...

I find it very interesting that not one single person on this forum, nor anywhere else I have ever read, has any hard evidence of being robbed in this way. It seems to be pure speculation as to the method. I'm glad a number of medical men have put their two penneth on this forum to support what I had already concluded. Inferior french wine is a much more likely cause for heavy sleeping! I for one won't be investing in a gas alarm, but a good quality audible alarm of the type described previously is the obvious sensible answer. Unless sombody out there knows differently????????

I was formally a security specialist by the way.

FM


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## Bazbro

Pusser, what you had bought weren't "carbon monoxide testers", but "Smokers Testers". These are for use when people don't know whether they smoke or not - if it turns brown, then they know they're a smoker. :wink:

So now you know that you're a smoker! Simple, eh? 

Whatever will they think of next...

Barry


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## 89271

*re: gas attacks*

interesting subject this one, having just started this motorhome journey its interesting to know these things. Anyway whilst purchasing our vw trooper from west country motorhomes I was speaking to paul pike and he'd just returned from a trip abroad where he'd become a victim of the gas attack. To say he was brassed off was an under statement. regards
jp


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## Anonymous

Thanks B&S for you advice. You will be my first port of call when I get my next techy question. In my defence I joined a smoking group on Monday which is a bit odd because they wouldn't let me smoke while they went through everything.

So I think the next session will expect me to stop. I hope so.


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## Bazbro

Why join a smoking group? You already smoke!!  

Barry


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## autostratus

Sonesta said:


> ........snipped.......
> .......After reading all of the posts on here I am now going to save my money and put it towards some better locks on the doors etc. We have a thatcham approved alarm sytem fitted that you can leave on when you are in the vehicle - but allows you switch off the motion sensor when the van is occupied. However, if someone tries to force the locks from the outside the alarm is still is activated! Hopefully any would be crook would be frightened off if they tried to break in and the alarm went off but it would also wake us up and enable us to take preventative action immediately!
> 
> .......snipped
> 
> Sonesta


.
More food for thought.
Your habitation door and lockers are protected by your 'overnight' alarm and the cab doors by better locks.
The external signal warns the would be thief that you have protection.

I'm told that by using a centre punch and striking the corner of the cab door windows they can be broken easily to allow the entry of a thief through these unprotected areas.

Where is the protection for this vulnerable place?

If you have a fixed bed at the rear or rear lounge used for sleeping you are quite a distance from the noise of breaking glass which isn't great.


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## Anonymous

Good point.... I think smokers are ending up like opium users. They have to use smoking dens.


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## 92086

*Re: re: gas attacks*



kenpoman said:


> I was speaking to paul pike and he'd just returned from a trip abroad where he'd become a victim of the gas attack.jp


Did he say how he knew he had been a victim of a _gas attack_? I just wonder again, was there evidence or did someone suggest to him that thats what it was.

Since I posted my message on this subject earlier this morning I have been told that my friend who thought he had been gassed last year has now changed his mind and thinks it was the result of a long journey followed by a few glasses of wine which caused his heavy sleeping. :wink:

FM


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## 88781

SOOooooo If the bad guys robbing ya aren't using ether, then the smell in the van must be the Victory V lozenge I had earlier!


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## Anonymous

Hi there,

I am no expert - so am not in a position to speak as one so I have just based my opinions on what the medical people have commented on. Surely their knowledge of how this gas works must be an important factor in this discussion? I would just like to know if anyone who believes they have been a victim of a gas attack have actually got solid proof that they have been - cos if they have then it is vital that the public is made fully aware of the danger they are in. Surely - if there is a gas that can render people unconscious this easily it would be headline news and the police would all be put on major alert because if what the medical people have said is accurate, it is only a matter of time before someone is killed from this lethal gas. If it is happening - it is extremely serious and more should be being done about it. Why aren't the police doing more to protect us and why aren't the aires employing some kind of security patrol in order to catch or deter these criminals? It doesn't make any sense! Don't get me wrong - if this is ever proven I will be the first in the queue for an alarm but I would like more concrete evidence of this gas and what it is etc before I waste my hard earned money on what might be a pointless alarm. 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE if anyone has ACTUAL proof that they were robbed due to being gassed then please let us know all the facts so that we can all take the necessary steps to protect ourselves and our loved ones. 

Sonesta


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## Detourer

And remember the Russian fiasco.........and if they couldn't get it right (perhaps they don't have "easy start" over there) then what chance is there that some low-life is an expert.


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## 88790

I seem to remember reading in the past that the active part of these alarms only lasts for about two years!

If this is so, it makes them expensive if you don't use them but then go abroad and find they don't work, when you have been put to sleep.

No having read the medical evidence on this thread I don't think I wll invest in one, which is a pity because I love gadgets!

John 8)


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## Bazbro

I strongly suspect that the thieves who break into occupied motorhomes (and caravans) are, in the main, very skilful at doing this, so in a great many cases they don't wake the occupants.

In those cases where the occupants do wake up, the thieves are off, and the occupants congratulate themselves on having 'foiled a robbery'. Where the occupants don't wake up, the only explanation that they can come up with is "We must have been gassed."

I believe that 'being gassed' is an urban myth that has been latched onto by many genuine victims of attacks as their only explanation for not being woken when very skilful thieves broke into their motorhome.

Barry


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## Anonymous

Isn't it awful that we cannot go away in our motorhomes etc and have peace of mind when we are sleeping? What ever is the world coming to - because let's face it we really should not have to be worrying over such things should we? Here we all are debating whether someone has been gassed or not like they are the guilty party and yet at the end of the day gassed or not innocent people have been robbed of their possessions whilst they were asleep and there is no excuse for anyone doing that to anybody. We all work darned hard to buy these luxuries and to think some low life scum bag can come along and just help themselves to our hard earned possessions not to mention upset our peace of mind. It really is totally disgusting and these rat bags cannot possibly have a conscience can they? I really do think the whole world has gone completely mad and I wonder where on earth it will all end? Bring back the stocks and corporal punishment I say! Public floggings would make em all think twice!

Sonesta


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## autostratus

All the people who have posted on this thread to the effect that gas attacks are an urban myth may well be right.

On the other hand they may well be WRONG.

We just don't_know_, do we?

Sonesta has just stated that we should be able to go away in our motorhomes and have peace of mind while sleeping. That's absolutely right.
We have peace of mind and sleep soundly in ours.
And yes, we have a gas alarm.
We got it as an extra to our alarm system, not because we felt we were in imminent danger of being attacked by gas every time we slept but because it was a possibility that couldn't be ruled out. We felt it was sensible to take what precautions were available.

After all, if one spends thousands of pounds it makes sense to protect it. We have an alarm system but don't expect to be broken into every time we stop and leave the mh unattended. But it is a possibility.


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## Anonymous

I see your point Gillian and I agree that if it helps you to sleep at night and not to worry about being gassed etc then it is worth the money. But isn't it annoying that we HAVE to go to such measures to protect oursleves? We really should not HAVE to? Why oh why can't the world be full of decent, law abiding people? Still this will never be - so we have no choice have we?

By the way - considering there are supposed to be so many gas attacks - has anyone any knowledge of where one of these alarms has actually gone off and alerterd the victims to a possible attempt? If so did they manage to catch the culprits - cos that would be interesting to know cos then hopefully we could then discover exactly what gas etc they are using to commit these crimes with.

Sue


----------



## autostratus

Sonesta said:


> I see your point Gillian and I agree that if it helps you to sleep at night and not to worry about being gassed etc then it is worth the money. But isn't it annoying that we HAVE to go to such measures to protect oursleves? We really should not HAVE to? Why oh why can't the world be full of decent, law abiding people? Still this will never be - so we have no choice have we?
> 
> Sue


I agree with you, Sue.
If the world was as we would want it there would be no police or neighbourhood watch either.
But we do live with these and Courts and magistrates/judges and in the end quite comfortably, even if we fit burglar alarms in order to do so.

We have to live in the world as it is and not as we would wish it, more's the pity.


----------



## Anonymous

It certainly is a real pity and if I had my way there would be far harsher sentences for the culprits. I think the courts are far too lenient with them and as I own a shop and am often on the receivng end of shoplifting etc I see first hand how little power the police often have with the offenders. It makes my blood boil it really does and I get so angry when these people think they have some kind of god given right to help themselves to my property. When I was growing up my mum was widowed with 4 small children and times were indeed very hard for her - yet we were brought up to realise right from wrong and that if we couldn't afford it we couldn't have it and it never entered our heads to go out and steal anything. Being poor is NO excuse for theft or shoplifting and unless a person is absolutely starving hungry I can never ever make any excuses for any one stealing anything! Even then it would have to be for very exceptional circumstances - maybe a child who is badly neglected and hungry or something as tragic and as sad as that but for any other reason absolutely no exceptions can I make for this sort of crime. Most of the time shoplifting is for purely selfish materialistic reasons and they should go out and work for what they want like most of us all have to do! If I sound harsh I make no apologies because in my book it is WRONG - what do others think?

Sue


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## Boff

Hi Sue!



Sonesta said:


> By the way - considering there are supposed to be so many gas attacks - has anyone any knowledge of where one of these alarms has actually gone off and alerterd the victims to a possible attempt?


I have seen many reports about (attempted) motorhome burglaries while owners were sleeping in it. Most of them from people having no alarm system at all.

I have also seen quite some reports about false alarms from gas alarm systems. Even one from a family who had had beans for dinner and then their gas alarm went off several times during the night, reacting on their... (you know what I mean... :wink.

I have also seen a few reports about gas alarms *not going off* during a burglary.

_But I have *never* seen a report about a gas alarm going off due to a crook administering gas into a motorhome._

So not only applied science, but also the odds are very much against the possibility of gas attacks.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


----------



## 92537

Hi everyone

My partner, Jim, and I have just bought our first motorhome, and are soon to embark on a 1-2 year trip around Europe. We're hearing more and more stories about gas attacks from fellow motorhomers and are considering buying a gas alarm with the view that it's better to be safe than sorry.

The majority of people's views seem to be that these gas attacks are an "urban myth" and that it's more likely that the victims of burglaries probably had too much to drink the night before and thus didn't hear a thing! Just because we don't know anyone personally who's been a victim of this kind of attack doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't happen. 

The Foreign & Commonweath Office website tells of 30 cases taking place in the Lyon area alone on 29/30 August this year! Surely they wouldn't be able to show this information on the website unless it was true! Or did the people involved in these 30 cases all go to the same ****-up and didn't want hassle with their insurance companies?

Jim and Lou


----------



## Detourer

Best thing is, stay away from Lyon! 30+ reports involving gas (alledged) that's more than the whole of Europe put together. At least we know no where the "expert" gasser's hang about..........don't think so!


----------



## 88790

I think the alarms are a good idea, at least your insurance company will know that you are not making it up for claims purposes!

Better not eat the beans though!

Come on I can't belive that if these attacks take place we can't find any positive proof.

Perhaps the alarm manufacturers have positive, police backed up proof?

John 8)


----------



## Anonymous

I have a question to pose?

The simple and obvious solution to all this uncertainty regarding this mystery gas - is for a controlled and proper experiment to be carried out under identical situations. This gas (whatever it is called) should be sprayed into a vehicle through the vents and the guinea pig occupants can then be observed! Has this most obvious experiment actually been carried out as yet doers anyone know and if not why ever not? If such an experiment has been conducted - where can we read the reports of this invaluable and important test? If this gas is so easily available and proven to be so easily misused then we the public should be made fully aware of the facts and this information should be made headline news!

What do others think?

Sonesta


----------



## Anonymous




----------



## 91568

> the noise of breaking glass which isn't great


Done right, all you might hear is a very small thump and the tinkle of glass onto any plastic or metal inside the van, probably not enough to wake you.

I'll admit that I'm _still_ inclined to think that gas has been used when breaking into motorhomes, but I think that the incidence is very, very low. For at least two years I've been aware of the possibility of it and we've had two x 3-week holidays in France during that time.

I'd definitely recommend anyone / everyone to fit when-you're-in-the-van security devices, but we still have none (other than door and window locks), nor am I seriously considering fitting any. 8O


----------



## Detourer

I think you have to be a very deep sleeper not to hear any window in a MH being broken. Plastic ones take a hell of a whack before breaking and class (cab windows I assume) break easy (impact tool) but make a lot of noise as they collapse. 

Gass attacts aside (I just do not think they are an issue) I find simple and visible security the best. I have a big F/off chain that I put around steering wheel.........only a fool would attempt to get past that (Yah I know, they ARE fools). And a simple latch chain on the inside of door means it can't be pulled open without noise and/or massive movement of van. Very simple switch on door frame can be wired to turn on interior/exterior lights as door is opened. When wild camping, which I do mostly, I have a heligan lamp with movement sensor (Very cheap from B&Q etc) on roof, simply connected to inverter (again, very cheap from Maplin). Anyone comes near and they are bathed in light.........and ALL crime prevention experts will tell you (Bet there is one out there who will not agree) thieves do NOT like light. All in all very cheap protection. As previous posting said I have been robbed once but it was entirely my own fault. Door left open because it was hot!! But, when I looked out there was noboby about, and it was the Sahara.........But as I have often said.."You are never alone out here".........


----------



## Texas

*Gas attacks*

I like that halogen light on roof idea, as my van is bristling with anti thief devices...including chains and alarms to all doors that seems to be the only area I have overlooked. Thanks for the idea.


----------



## 91568

> you have to be a very deep sleeper not to hear any window in a MH being broken


Try taking a centre punch and a hammer into a scrapyard and tapping a quarterlight.

Or better still - thieves don't want to be found going equipped - don't use a hammer, tap the centre punch with a brick, rock, lump of metal that you find nearby.


----------



## Anonymous

*Could be very dangerous*

Hi again,

I think the point made by "Sonesta" is very valid in an ideal world. But given the dangers associated would be a very dangerous experiment. Any person willing to take part would be extremely foolish.

I'm not an Anesthetist, but a Trauma Specialist. Therefore my knowledge on Anesthetics is not as deep as some of the other specialists whom have added their views. However, when an Anesthetic procedure is taking place it is not a matter of allowing the victim/patient to inhale as much of the Anesthetic as possible, it is a very difficult controlled application of mix. If this mix were to be wrong them the consequences most definitely would be fatal.

I don't think it would be possible under experimental conditions to afford the correct level of application and control required to ensure the occupants paramount safety.

I stand by my previous post. The whole thing in my opinion is a complete "Urban Myth". :x

Happy Camping

Stewart


----------



## Bazbro

I think you'll find they use spring-loaded centre punches (ie push on them until they 'pop'.)

Barry


----------



## 91568

And there's yet another, but I don't like discussing MOs in public!


----------



## autostratus

I think the talk of villains attempting to_anesthetise_the occupants of a motorhome paints the wrong picture.
I agree that it would be well nigh impossible to safely anesthetise a healthy person, fully awake and with all faculties functioning sitting chatting in a well lit well ventilated motorhome.

But surely, that isn't the same as the possibillity that the sleeping occupants of a motorhome who have probably driven quite a few miles on a hot day, possibly eaten late and had a glass or two can be induced to sleep even more deeply. This by the introduction of a noxious substance such as the ether based 'Easystart' into their environment.

I wrote earlier:-


> More food for thought.
> Your habitation door and lockers are protected by your 'overnight' alarm and the cab doors by better locks.
> The external signal warns the would be thief that you have protection.
> 
> I'm told that by using a centre punch and striking the corner of the cab door windows they can be broken easily to allow the entry of a thief through these unprotected areas.
> 
> Where is the protection for this vulnerable place?
> 
> If you have a fixed bed at the rear or rear lounge used for sleeping you are quite a distance from the noise of breaking glass which isn't great.


When we had our alarm installed we asked what provision they made for protecting the cab area overnight when the 'overnight' alarm was set.
We were surprised that there was none offered as part of the available package.
We asked for and had fitted a sensor which covered only the cab area and which operates even though the main full length one is not operating overnight.

The only problem we have had with it is in forgetting it's there and going into the cab area for a map or something after it has been set.


----------



## Anonymous

Stewart - at last we have a Trauma boiler specialist, thank god.  There are always questions about these, mainly how to get it going. And I think the gas opinion is probably right. But with millions of posts about this subject they is that nagging doubt. I suppose when you are camping, particularly in the wild, there must be a lurking worry in the back of your mind about vandally type people mostly, and robbers and drug addicts and psychopaths, axe murderers, gangsters, hooligans, football supporters, aliens, traffice wardens and worse. 8O


----------



## Detourer

futher my previous on simple visible (chain) and Helagen light etc. I found Maplin's to be perfect for easy/simple DIY security....... and effective.

Given that a thief will/may/poss break a cab window they still have to get in and I assume this will be through the door that can now be opened. Again Maplins......simple switch link to your auto cab on/off switch and a buzzer (and you can get them as loud as you like even easly linked to your hazards and horn) and a thief would have to think you have a bit more to take the the average MH on tour before they enter a MH under these conditions.

I have just these 3 simple systems........Chain (also handy if they did get in), Helage lamp (two) and simple connection to existing external alarm system and have never had a breakin and I wild camp most of the time and have border/dockside camped in some horendious locations.

BUT, don't forget if you lock yourself in make sure YOU can get OUT quickly......But that's another issue[/i]


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## 88915

*gas !*

The most telling arguments against these supposed gas attacks is the lack of any evidence that gas has been used. Has anybody found used canisters of the stuff lying around, or are they tidy thieves & dispose of the used canisters in the nearest recycling bin? Have any of the gas warning devices actually worked & alerted anybody being robbed?
If some low life is going to go equipped with gas canisters and the like, 1) where is he getting it? 2)how much is it going to cost him, and what is the cost / reward benefit? It just doesn't add up. 
Most likely is as discussed in various posts - people are very tired after a long drive, and/or several doses of alcohol; very skilled burglars get in by whatever means and shuffle around quitely and nick your stuff. Next morning - I've been robbed, I have a splitting headache therefore I've been gassed. Police are advsied in broken french, or loud english & go along with the gassing story to get rid of them; insurance co pays up for losses. 
If you're not comfortable about an overnight stop, don't stop there; especially on an autoroute aire. Unfortunately there are people out there who are up to no good - don't make it easy for them.


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## 88915

Detourer said:


> I have a heligan lamp with movement sensor ..


is this marketed by the people at the lost gardens? didn't see it in their shop..

:wink: sorry, I know what you mean...


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## elbino

Having survived our first holiday in France, staying on Aires for nearly two weeks, without so much as a knock on the door, let alone a gas attack, I have followed this thread with interest. I find it very strange that as all the learned wisdom points to a gas attack being virtually impossible to mount successfully without killing the occupants,blowing up the m/home or dawn arriving before enough gas has been administered, that there has been a deafening silence from the makers and retailers of gas alarms. Surely, if anyone has statisics on attacks it will be these people and I would like to challenge them to post a case for their not inexpensive products on this site. I doubt we shall see one but I am willing to be proved wrong....it has happened occasionally :!:


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## 89813

If I was going to gas somebody I would either use a piece of hose attached to the exhaust pipe of my car that doesn't have a catalectic converter, and not leave it in long enough to hopefully kill them. There are to chemicals that are readily available to anybody that when mixed together form a gas that in a small amount will knock you out but again too much will kill. I am not going to say what it is as it is very dangerous. 
I don't know if these attacks are true or not but I would not call these people liars one will only no the truth if it happens to themselves.


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## Anonymous

I am just an innocent motorhomer who just wants to enjoy her new motorhome with her husband and family. I am NOT an expert and have no knowledge in the field of science and these gasses. I rely on the knowledge of the experienced and the experts in such matters and just want to pursue my hobby as safely and as problem free as I can. I do not visit discussion forums such as this to argue or fall out with my fellow members and can see no logical reason why any other member should wish to do so either. This is a discussion forum and hopefully we all will discuss various matters in a sensible and adult manner and where the need arises (like we all have to do in our everyday lives) we then draw up and form our own conclusions and opinions based on what we hear, see, read and experience etc. I have formed my own opinion re this gas after reading the posts on here and on another motorhome discussion forum and my personal opinion is that this gas problem has yet to be proved to me - however I respect and accept that not everyone will share my views or my opinions and that is no big deal to me at all and I fully respect this and I cannot see the logic of some people getting rude or annoyed with fellow members who dare to express their own opinions. People seem to get really uptight just because someones feelings differs to theirs - but that is life and thankfully we will all contiunue to form our own opinions otherwise what a very boring and uninteresting world we would all live in.

I personally - just want proof that this mystery gas can disable people as easily as is claimed and although I am not an expert - I am sure those with the skills and the know how, in proper laboratory conditions could surely find some means of testing this product to evaluate its capabilities. So far on this subject the medically qualified who visit this discussion forum are all saying it is nigh on impossible for this gas to be administered safely and therefore are poo pooing these gas attack claims - yet many other members who, as far as I know are just ordinary people like myself (by ordinary - I mean scientifically and medically unqualified etc) seem to be quite adamant that this gas is all that it claims to be! I suppose I have took the advice and the opinions of the "experts" more seriously than the other posters on here and yes I can go out and purchase an alarm just to be on the safe side - but even these alarms have not yet been proven to work from what I can see and at the end of the day I just wanna know the truth! Am I at risk or not?????????

Sonesta


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## Anonymous

You are so right Sonesta. I have been having an up hill battle on here to get people to discuss matters in a sensible and adult manner. I think I'm gradually turning it around.


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## Anonymous

> I have been having an up hill battle on here to get people to discuss matters in a sensible and adult manner. I think I'm gradually turning it around.


Good morning Pusser, dare a newbie ask if you have found an accurate way of measuring your progress with this?


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## Anonymous

Well, I have had one or two probs with Barry and Sue not taking things seriously and Rainey was a problem until she was kidnapped by Turkish Freedom Fighters - Oops - that has just reminded me that I have to send the money off for her ransom. I would like to thank all the 501 members on here that contributed to Raineys fund and the 1p surplus will be retained for expenses.

Rainey should be free at any time now as soon as I can find the postal order.


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## Anonymous

*hi*

a five pound postal order pusser you will have to pay three pounds for it and travel five miles to the nearest post office to get it,i'm sorry she will just have to stop there with the turks
:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## 89481

*Gas attacks*

Hi all
I like many of you thought that gas attacks were a urban myth but this summer I met a Austrian family at Riverside camp site in Plymouth who
had it happen to them in France this summer. They all woke at about 11.30 am ( very late for them as they are normaly all up by 8.00 am ) all feeling very groggy to find that the van had been gone through, bank cards and camera all missing. There motorhome was a Fiat based C class. They had put a large screw driver or something simular in the driver door lock and twisted it forceing the lock to open. He has now made a locking device to hold the
door lock buttons in the down position. These guys had no reason to lie!
Makes you think
Cheers Nort


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## Anonymous

It certainly does make you think Nort - but even so, this again is only assumption! I know it would explain everything and like you say it "makes you think" - especially as theywere all normally not such heavy sleepers but I personally still just want to see some ACTUAL proof! Of course common sense will tell me to be especially vigilante if ever I visit France etc and I would not be so silly as to completely rule out 100% the risk of being attacked because just as I need proof to tell me this can happen - I also would like proof that it CAN'T!

Once again I ask the question "Why doesn't someone prove OR disprove this theory ONCE AND FOR ALL?"

Sue


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## 88797

Im completely with you Sonesta (Sue)

A bit like Ghosts, UFOs etc - Prove it exists and Ill believe it!

If its such a problem the police would be giving information, MMM would be interviewing dozens of victims and everyone would be aware of how they do it and manufacturers would be churning out alarms by the van load AND the net would be full of sites telling you how to do it!!

As I have said before - this urban myth was widespread 10-15 years ago about night trains in Europe - always Aussies/NZ etc who knew someone who met someone etc etc
I have heared far more information as to why it CANT happen (need too much gas, highly explosive etc) than how it CAN (Anyone know how they do it????)

A


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## 88724

Hi Nort

*It is an urban myth without any shadow of a doubt

It as not happened, People would be dead*

Read thru the above posts.

The absolute proof is that there have been no deaths.

Read what aneasthetists say they could not do it and if a trained anaesthetist cant do it how can an untrained thief.

If superpowers cant do it in hostage situations, how can thieves.

This is without the fact of no explosions caused by an highley flammable gas being sprayed into a vehicle.

The evidence is absolutely clear, it does not happen.

You might as well invest in a Santa Claus alarm. But at least believing in Santa Claus is Harmless.


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## 90473

Hi Sonesta,

I have already posted on this subject and it was interesting to read from the British Embassy, France website (mentioned as well by someone else) the following:
"There have also been several cases of burglary during the night whilst travellers have been asleep in their caravans, mobile homes or other vehicles in France. In a number of cases (most recently in the Lyons area during the night of 29/30 August when 30 vehicles were targeted) victims had first been rendered unconscious by the thieves using gas."

I was hoping to have posted a reply to my correspondence by now but my request for further information wasn't even acknowledged. It's good to know that my taxes are used to further the great British tradition of mushroom cultivation.


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## Boff

Sonesta said:


> Once again I ask the question "Why doesn't someone prove OR disprove this theory ONCE AND FOR ALL?"


Hi Sue,

George is absolutely right: In this thread sufficient proof has been delivered by several people that all this is just plain bull****. An urban myth, nothing more.

The only issue is: Mankind has not yet invented any means to effectively shut down a rumour. On the contrary, we have invented the Internet, the greatest and most effective rumour spreading tool of all times. :roll:

So, same story as with UFOs, Nessie or "moon landing fake made in Hollywood": You can deliver as much hardest proof as you want, you will never kill the rumour.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## 88915

*gas*

It's a bit like the ongoing arguments locally about the "tetra" radio transmitters for the police communications - all scientific evidence says that they are completely safe, but hundreds of people say that they have headaches & feel unwell when the things are switched on. Campaigning groups, MP's, local councillors, and the local newspapers are all up in arms against them and more rumours continue.


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## Don_Madge

Sonesta wrote,

"Once again I ask the question "Why doesn't someone prove OR disprove this theory ONCE AND FOR ALL?"

That will never happen because the motorhoming community thrives on rumour and speculation especially while they are abroad. That's what keeps some of the golden oldies going.

Don


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## 88724

Hi Mike

I would say that the Tetra's are different, The goverment is protecting a massive investment in a technology.

http://www.satori-5.co.uk/word_articles/hrs/tetra.html

While there is no conclusive proof of problems, I think they are not as sure as they would like to be.

Strong scientific evidence is mounting that they are actually bad.

George


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## autostratus

*Re: gas*



bognormike said:


> It's a bit like the ongoing arguments locally about the "tetra" radio transmitters for the police communications - all scientific evidence says that they are completely safe,............


Sorry but that isn't a good analogy to use.

In the case of the gas attack stories there is scientific evidence to show that there are substances in use which give off a noxious gas which in certain circumstances can lead to drowziness and in more extreme case unconsciousness and even death.
Ask about solvents used in dry cleaning or in some adhesives and there others.
I once went round the back of a dry cleaning machine to find my friend leaning against a wall conscious but totally unable to move and overcome by fumes. He was immediately taken out into the open air and recovered within minutes although left with a bad headache.

My view FWIW is that while the stories cannot be_disproved_I will remain sceptical but not convinced that it cannot happen.
For that reason we will continue to take precautions against the possibility of gas attacks along with our others for peace of mind. A little insurance.
When all is said and done, what is insurance for? It's against something that isn't going to happen: but it might and if it does.....


----------



## Anonymous

This is off the Foreign Office travel warning page

Quote Mugging incidents have occurred at isolated rest areas on some French motorways, usually those without petrol stations and cafeterias. There have also been several cases of burglary during the night whilst travellers have been asleep in their caravans, mobile homes or other vehicles in France. In a number of cases (most recently in the Lyons area during the night of 29/30 August when 30 vehicles were targeted) victims had first been rendered unconscious by the thieves using gas. Try to avoid parking in isolated or dark areas of camping grounds or car parks, and consider installing an alarm in your caravan or mobile home. Unquote

I suppose they use gas as its cheaper than electricity.

It also says that radar detection equipment is illegal whether being used or not.


----------



## 88724

Hi Gillian



> In the case of the gas attack stories there is scientific evidence to show that there are substances in use which give off a noxious gas which in certain circumstances can lead to drowziness and in more extreme case unconsciousness and even death.


This is the proof by reverse logic, All of the gases etc that have been put forward as candidates, would lead to deaths.

There are no deaths ergo there are no gas attacks.

Mike's analogy fails, because there is mounting proof that the Tetra system is harmful, whereas in the case of gas the overwhelming evidence is that the gas attacks do not accur.

George


----------



## autostratus

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Gillian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the case of the gas attack stories there is scientific evidence to show that there are substances in use which give off a noxious gas which in certain circumstances can lead to drowziness and in more extreme case unconsciousness and even death.
> 
> 
> 
> [quoteThis is the proof by reverse logic, All of the gases etc that have been put forward as candidates, would lead to deaths.
Click to expand...




> There are no deaths ergo there are no gas attacks.


And no victims to prove or disprove the death theory. So the victims lived?



> Mike's analogy fails, because there is mounting proof that the Tetra system is harmful, whereas in the case of gas the overwhelming evidence is that the gas attacks do not accur.
> 
> George


Leaving aside the Tetra argument which I don't wish to get into in this forum I must say that I have never seen any overwhelming evidence that gas attacks do not occur. I can only repeat what I penned earlier.



> My view FWIW is that while the stories cannot be_disproved_I will remain sceptical but not convinced that it cannot happen


And on that basis will take what are relatively cheap precautions.


----------



## 88724

Hi Gillian

Anaesthetists say it cannot without causing deaths be done and they are the professionals in this field and yet you would still insist that vague rumours are possibly right?

re the dry cleaning fluid motorhomes are full of absorbant material yet we have none of the rumours mentioning smells?

No-one could ever be convicted of a crime, if your proof levels where required.

The case against gas attacks is proven beyond any reasonable doubt.

George


----------



## Anonymous

It seems to me that some people just cannot bear to be wrong or admit that they may be wrong and so they will just keep on pushing and pushing their theories - even though they have no evidence one way or another (well no evidence that is 100% proven yet) At the end of the day, each and everyone of us on here are only quoting our theories of what we "THINK" is the true situation with this gas. The experts DO NOT seem to think this gas is able to do what is claimed and surely they must be far better qualified to comment then most of us are - but so far NO-ONE, not even the EXPERTS have actually carried out any intensive tests to confirm or deny these reports. This is what is puzzling me and I just cannot understand why something as hazardous and problamatic as this is not under some kind of investigation. So ..... for me personally, until I have accurate information - I am afraid I will just have to go by my gut instincts.

My thinking is for those that just want to be on the safe side and whom will feel happier - then go out and purchase one of these alarms and I just hope that they do actually work and in the event of a "gas attack" attempt they alert you and prove to be money well spent. I personally will not be spending my money on one just yet as I still want proof one way or another - but then that's me and not everyone will feel as I do!

This debate is now getting very silly and I think we should all agree to disagree and respect each others personal views. Our one main aim should be to get the powers that be to fully investigate this matter and finally put an end to all this speculation! 

Sue


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## autostratus

Sue, never underestimate the power of debate.

There are some very heated debates in Parliament often giving rise to bizarre points of view being put forward.

Nevertheless, in the end good more often than not comes out of them.


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## Anonymous

I have been in touch with the Foreign Office for further info. But either way, who is going to believe a government departement.


----------



## 90473

Bet you I was in touch with them before you Pusser.

Bet you bigger, they don't reply to you either :lol:


----------



## 88790

To end the debate perhaps Sonesta would like to act as a guinea pig and perhaps we could arrange for some of our medically qualified members to be on hand and then have one of our members who seems to know what happens undertake the foul deed.

This would settle once and for all all the doubts we have!

John 8)


----------



## Anonymous

Hi Gillian,

I agree a healthy debate is good and I am sure by debating many subjects - solutions and answers have been found to many problems and situations. But the debate on here is just going round and round in circles now and we are not getting any further to the actual truth. A debate should reach a conclusion where a path is decided upon to take which may hopefully bring about answers etc and this debate is just continually hitting a brick wall. We can discuss it for ever more but sadly that will still not answer the doubts and the fears we all have and until this is done how can any of us say with any certainty that these villains are out there with their cans of gas? Truthfully Gillian - as yet, none of us can say that and I personally want to know the facts and I think we deserve to have some answers to our questions. I am not saying it is or isn't true - I just don't know ..... so instead of us all arguing our opinions like we are doing - why dont we all get our heads together and put our energy into finding out the risks and demand some kind of action and investigation into all this!



I want to feel safe on my travels and the more I hear about this gas the more confusing and conflicting I am finding the whole subject. Therefore I think it's about time something was done so that the public is fully informed of the risks - if indeed there are any!?

Sue

Sue


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## Anonymous

That was a very silly answer John! (Jabber)

Sonesta


----------



## eurajohn

Although I put my twopennoth to this thread at the start, I'll add a couple more thoughts.

Have Caravanners been similarly attacked?
Is it reported, debated in similar forums to ours?

There are several angles to this lot; the main "fors" appear to be the ones that have already paid out for some form of alarm!!

The against are the sceptical "give me some genuine evidence, proof and I'll believe it" types (I'm one of those), or the "Medical" factual types that know their subject!!!

Then of course there are the don't knows and the don't bloody care!!!!

John.


----------



## 88790

There appear to be two main questions 1. Have there been any documented attacks? 2.What proof is there that the details we have actually would produce the effects quoted?

I personally am prepared to go along with comments from our medically qualified members.

Hence my tongue in cheek comment!!!!

John :wink:


----------



## 90473

(eura)John, mine was the second post, pg.1 on this subject and if you check out this link

http://www.professionalsecurity.co.uk/newsdetails.aspx?NewsArticleID=2234&imgID=1

I can't be too critical because I couldn't afford to be sued *but* this is the only mention of the problem



> prevents thieves from entering the cab, even if the driver is gassed


the rest is an advert from a leading supplier of cab safety products, no mention of how, what, when or where these incidents take place. As I stated before, the road transport industry is rife with these claims but no-one can supply any details.


----------



## 88724

Hi

I cannot imagine anyone here as not heard of people dying on the operating table from the anaesthetic.

But Just in case.

"The number of deaths due to an anaesthetic problem is tiny - a recent study put the number at just five per million operations."

This is with trained anaesthetists with close monitoring, a persons age weight and health are all taken into account and then a carefully calculated mixture Of gas and Oxygen is used.

Anaesthetists say this is impossible to do in a vehicle situation, a slight variation cause death or mental impairment, have a look at the site the above quote is from

http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/anaesthesia.html

There are several things that it would not be possible for the thief to do, which would make deaths a certainty, of the Thousands of so called gassing cases not one death is all the proof that is needed.

The above link is playing down the dangers, have look through the following links and see if you can realistically believe it could be done in a vehicle situation.

Quote

"inally, the stage of paralysis of the medulla, when the respiratory and circulatory centres are paralysed, and the heart muscle itself is poisoned and death ensues. e The aim of the anaesthetist is to keep the patient in the third degree of anaesthesia, thus avoiding the movements of the second and the dangers of the fourth; he therefore keeps the patient under close observation, and by watching the respiration, pulse and facial aspect, is able to judge the condition of the respiration and circulation. He has a further guide in the lid-reflex, i.e. the movement of the eyelid when the globe is touched; this and the size of the pupil tell him to what extent the central nervous system is depressed and complete the information he requires.

It will have been observed that the administration of the above drugs is by inhalation, and has to be continued throughout the operation, the reason being that all the drugs are as rapidly excreted as they are absorbed, especially by the lungs, and therefore no other method would be of any avail. That there are drugs which are sufficiently slowly eliminated to allow of an operation being performed between the moment of induction and that of recovery, cannot be doubted, and their discovery and use can only be a matter of time. Even at the present time there is one, urethane, which, if injected with a hypodermic needle, soon produces a profound general anaesthesia. It has only been used on the lower animals, as its depressing effect on the respiratory centre contra-indicates its use in human beings." From the link below

http://43.1911encyclopedia.org/A/AN/ANAESTHESIA.htm

Common side effects even under Professional care

Quote

Following the operation, the anaesthetic is reversed and the patient is woken up. This is a time where it is all too easy to hurry, especially when there is a long operation list, but it is a critical period because a number of complications may occur. The anaesthetist must be vigilant, for example, for biting on the endotracheal tube or post-extubation layngospasm (which is spasm of the throat), both of which can cause acute airway obstruction, or aspiration of gastric acid, which can cause pulmonary oedema (fluid on the lungs). These may ultimately result in Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome, which can be very difficult to treat.

From here

http://www.leighday.co.uk/doc.asp?cat=924&doc=140

George


----------



## 88724

Would any of the *believers* like to conduct an experiment with their van?

No occupants, I really dont fancy a murder or manslaughter charge, but have the fridge switched on I will spray in the gas that features in this urban legend.

Anyone care to guess what the result would be? or do all these campers have the fridge switched off?

There are hundreds of facts that say gas attacks do not happen.

George


----------



## Boff

Hi Sue!



Sonesta said:


> The experts DO NOT seem to think this gas is able to do what is claimed and surely they must be far better qualified to comment then most of us are - but so far NO-ONE, not even the EXPERTS have actually carried out any intensive tests to confirm or deny these reports.


I am sorry but this is just not true.

Such "Tests" are carried out everyday in hospitals all over the world! When patients are narcotized during surgery. Normally by the means of gaseous narcotics. And, at least in the more civilized countries, it is required by law that an anesthesist is present in the OR and constantly monitors the patient. This is because the threshold between narcosis and death is very small.

Luckily, because of this practice, lethal accidents are very rare. But the do happen!

One of the most serious suspects, Ether, was also for quite some time in use for medical anesthesis. So there exists a lot of experience. Reasons why it had been gradually replaced by other substances were (among others) its high inflammability and the high concentrations needed to narcotize.

Another, more dramatic, "test" was carried out by the Russian army two years ago in this theatre in Moscow. And you know what happened: People on the lower levels of the theatre (mostly hostages) died while people on the upper levels (mostly terrorists) were still concious enough to start shooting. 

So the properties of narcotic gases are very well known and thoroughly tested.

Nevertheless you have one point: Thugs, not necessarily being the most intelligent beings on Earth, might actually try to administer a can of engine starting spray or whatever into a motorhome before cracking it. In their superstition that "it works". And in this way they might set off a gas alarm before they enter the van.

Unfortunately I don't know a single case where a gas alarm has actually prevented a burglary. But, even more unfortunately, already several cases are reported where the active gas alarm did *not* go off during a burglary.

So again my recommendation: Invest your money into good passive security measures (locks etc.) and a good "conventional" intruder alarm.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


----------



## autostratus

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi
> 
> I cannot imagine anyone here as not heard of people dying on the operating table from the anaesthetic.


George, I for one would not want to argue with an anaesthetist but to be correct we are not really talking of anaesthetising someone but of being able to induce deeper sleep in someone already asleep.



Sonesta said:


> Hi Gillian,
> 
> I agree a healthy debate is good and I am sure by debating many subjects - solutions and answers have been found to many problems and situations. But the debate on here is just going round and round in circles now and we are not getting any further to the actual truth.


You are quite correct and we now have two camps.
One says it isn't proved therefore I will do nothing until it is proved to be true.
The other says it isn't proved therefore I will take available precautions until it can be discounted.

I don't apologise when I say I belong to the second group.

If you belong to the first group then you are in trouble if it is proved to be a valid modus operandi and they pick on you.
If you belong to the second group the only penalty if it is proved not to be a valid modus operandi is about £100.00

In the end you have to do your best for your family within financial constraints.


----------



## Anonymous

> the rest is an advert from a leading supplier of cab safety products, no mention of how, what, when or where these incidents take place.


& I bet each time there is an advert, there is an article.

Or, is it the other way around? Or do I mean 'round'?

One other thought, which will get me wiped out; as is the fate of all messengers:-

If one is THAT bothered by being broken into, gassed, robbed, clubbed, shot, whatever, ---- why on earth buy a vehicle made of polystyrene, plastic/aluminium that can be accessed with a penknife??

Ok OK -- i'll come quietly ---

Or just mention the 'Van Bitz, phones your mobile afterwards' -- alarm & I will just top myself anyway.

(Sorry Eddie -- no offence, but at that price don't you do a 'gas attack add-on service pack'?)

Hedge -- awaiting his fate, -- but not from Brownhills --- PLEASE.


----------



## 88915

*gas attacks*

the arguments have gone backwards & forwards and we seem to be repeating things rather frequently now. and some members seem to be getting a bit heated or being carried away in too much detail. Can I suggest that we call it a day and close this thread? After all, in the big talking shop in westminster they have time limits & a vote.
Perhaps a vote would be appropriate....


----------



## autostratus

No vote and please don't close it.

The longer this topic remains in the 'top twenty' the more chance there is of someone joining it with hard evidence one way or the other.

I frankly don't care which way the hard evidence goes but keep the topic available so that new members can add to it if they wish.


----------



## 88915

*gas attacks*

Thanks, Gillian, will keep an eye on things for now & see what happens.

(I don't know how to set up a vote anyway!)


----------



## Anonymous

Is that it? 

No death threats? 

-- praise even.
.............................................................................................................................................................

Yes please BognorMike, kill the thread

I think you will save my life.

Many thxs


----------



## 88724

Hi Mike

A vote would be good. Interesting at least

Three possible answers

1. Gas attacks are an Urban Myth

2. I am staying firmly on the fence

3. I believe that gas attacks have occured

George


----------



## Anonymous

If I asked ---'Does it matter in the great scheme George?' --- this will continue to page 16 & beyond 

So I didn't


----------



## autostratus

Hedge said:


> Yes please BognorMike, kill the thread
> 
> I think you will save my life.
> 
> Many thxs


Sorry, I don't understand.
If a thread remains it doesn't mean you have to contribute or even open it.

Why kill it?


----------



## 88724

"If you belong to the second group the only penalty if it is proved not to be a valid modus operandi is about £100.00 "

Not true, there is also your dignity as a rational, inteligent and logical human being.


Mentioning family and danger is a low marketing trick, especially when the danger does not exist. 

If this myth continues and spreads some idiot is going to get the idea and try it though with fatal concequenses.

George


----------



## elbino

As I said before...since everyone else is repeating themselves.. why don't the makers and retailers give us the facts that they must have had in order to start selling these alarms. I agree with Gillian that if there is a risk then it is only common sense to be prepared, but at the moment I cannot see the risk and these alarms are not cheap. I put a belt through the cab door handles and have rigged up my wifes personal alarm so that opening the van door sets off a 120 db siren that will wake the dead and is impossible to stop unless you know where the bits are when it goes off.This in addition to deadlocks,immobilser and internal alarm which although deactivated at night has a panic button which is next to the bed on a hook. Much more is going to take the business of going to bed into the realms shutting down Strangeways.....and I might have to stop drinking, heaven forbid, in order to get the sequences right !


----------



## autostratus

GeorgeTelford said:


> "If you belong to the second group the only penalty if it is proved not to be a valid modus operandi is about £100.00 "
> 
> Not true, there is also your dignity as a rational, inteligent and logical human being.


Sorry, but my dignity will remain intact however anyone else wants to vote and whatever anyone else does about the threat or possible or impossible threat.



> Mentioning family and danger is a low marketing trick, especially when the danger does not exist.


What has my mention of family and financial constraints got to do with marketing?[/quote]



> If this myth continues and spreads some idiot is going to get the idea and try it though with fatal concequenses.
> 
> George


But I thought you said somewhere that it wasn't possible.


----------



## Anonymous

> ...since everyone else is repeating themselves..


Mr.Moderator, am I allowed to resent that please?

O


----------



## 88724

Many of these alarms prey on looking after your family and the fact that money should not be an issue were loved ones are concerned, its a common shyster trick taught to alarm salesmen, you also added it to your post.

Of course spraying gas into a vehicle is possible, its just up to now no-one has tried it (according to all the available evidence. No deaths = no gas attacks)

George


----------



## Anonymous

Hi Boff I think you may have misunderstood my post because I agree 100% with your comments. The experts claim these gas attacks must be myths and personally I have been convinced by their claims. My point was really that tests done under similar conditions (e.g. sprayed into motorhomes or small enclosed areas) should be carried out by experts or those in the know - so as to finally put an end one way or another to these claims. I apologise if I did not explain myself very clearly. As far as I am aware no such tests have been reported. I appreciate tests have been done in operating theatre conditions but not to my knowledge under the conditions that this topic is referring to.

Sue


----------



## Anonymous

Whenever you hear of these so called gas attacks the victims claim to have been robbed during their sleep - so one can only ascertain from this that the victims have ALL been in bed asleep when their attackers have struck and sprayed in the offending gas. Has anyone of these victims ever actually been awake at the time - maybe sat up in a chair reading or something and then awoke to found themselves slumped on the floor or similar? I would imagine if you were awake doing something and this gas sprayed into your van would surely drop to the ground as you were rendered unconscious and this then would really make you suspicious and think something very odd had happened to you. It seems very odd to me that out of all the attacks not one person has reported being awake one minute and then awoke some time later to find themselves slumped on the floor and robbed of all their possessions? I suffer from insomnia and am often awake in the early hours and usually get up and log onto the internet, read a book or watch late night tv etc and I am sure there must be other people out there with similar sleep problems and therefore it does seem strange that no-one has been found unconscious on the floor. 

Do you think these burglars have just been lucky and everyone has been tucked up asleep in their beds making it far easier for them when they strike or do you like me, find the likliehood of this quite hard to believe and therefore throws even more doubt on the gas attack theory?

What do others think?

Sue


----------



## 88741

I too am watching this thread and both, I hesitate to use the word sides as it is divisive, camps shall I say have put up some interesting, thought provoking and informative points. I do not want to lock the thread or delete it as I feel it has real validity. but I will it it degenerates into flaming. The ethos of this forum has been courtesy for the other persons point of view, if we lose that we will lose members and rightly so. So please think before you type, remember what may sound ok when you say it may well have different connatations when read without being able to see the other person. Please don't lets lose this forums friendliness, it just ain't worth it at the end of the day :wink:


----------



## Malc

http://www.peaceofmindusa.com/1st_in_preparedness_168.htm
Malc


----------



## Detourer

Proof..........for me anyway.

Went wild camping last night (testing new bits in MH before a trip). Took a friend along. Late in the night, and after "testing" the contents of a few cans and a bottle, we thought we heard something outside.....the fiasco of our recce of the close area and a bit more "testing" resulted in histerics (spelled?).........there was no real reason for this......as we are grown men!! Laugh? I nearly ### myself. Can't remember falling to sleep but when we awoke in the morning not only did we both have serious head problems BUT there were more cans on the table than either of us remembered from the night before!........I also found a lever type tool that "looked" like the one I had B###### the wife for losing some weeks before, but it may not have been.......the door was un-locked, i'm sure I had locked it. on leaving the MH we found huge amounts of food etc cannisters outside, not there the night before, I think, but it was dark when we camped.

I am now convinced (forget my previous posts) that I/we was victims of a gas attack.......Nitrous Oxide N20 no less, otherwise known a LAUGHING GAS. And if you need more proof look no further than the amount of cans the bandits left behind....... this gas is used in food aerosols as a repe, reapel........whatever (spelling again).........Urban Myth....no chance! Call the cop's.


----------



## Raine

Hm! Well, while having our alarm fitted by vanbitz in taunton, we also had a gas alarm fitted, then MET a couple (retired) who had just bought a new van and were also having alarms fitted (gas included) BECAUSE they had been gassed. They had gone to bed, not drunk, and when they had eventually woken up, found they had been robbed, even of a medallion the chappie had on, but the thieves had missed their holiday money, cos they were sleeping on it, they both felt 'heavy(?) and the wife had to be taken to hospital, it very nearly killed her because she suffered from Asthma, a couple they were travelling with were also gassed and robbed! I wasn't going to argue with them, but was impressed that they weren't going to be put off by it! and i had no reason to doubt them.


----------



## autostratus

Thank you for that contribution, Raine.

It would be useful to know where they were when the robbery took place, can you remember any mention of it?


----------



## Raine

Sorry Gill, I think it was France, heading for Spain, will ask hubby if he remembers, they were a lovely couple. (typical Brits- NOT GOING TO LET THAT STOP US!)


----------



## 88724

Hi Raine

Not really evidence tho is it , you had no reason to doubt them, but when looked at logicaly what reason do you have to believe them either, how did they know they had been gassed?

Anaesthetists have said in this thread it cant be done, Russia killed hostages trying to end a siege situation, and in Breslan they did not need to use Spetznatz (=Russian SAS, what they really needed was a couple of thieving scrotes from France, but you are willing to disregard professional evidence and a major news stories in favour of hearsay from an old couple?

Has anyone got any compelling evidence that Santa Claus does not exist, this is not being facitious, the same kind of logic is saying that gassing as possibly happened.

I am going to withdraw from this debate until something new comes up.

George


----------



## Raine

Yes and Yes George.


----------



## 88724

Hi Raine

At last I get it :idea: , one must ignore all the evidence and just believe, how silly of me to allow facts and logic get in the way of a simple belief system. :wink: 

and with that I'll have to disapear in a puff of logic :!: 


Joking aside there needs to be a least some logical reasoning applied.

I heard it, therefore I believe it

the above is never going to make it as a Philosophical law is it?

At least try and find a flaw in the reasoning and evidence of the majority of people who believe it cannot be done.

George


----------



## Anonymous

Not really sure where this one is heading!

Anyway have added a poll out of curiosity. Personally I feel they are 'probably' an urban myth, however I wouldn't rule it out.


----------



## Anonymous

I'm a firm sitting on the fence because I cannot ignore what has been said by those who believe it true but neither can I get my head around the facts given to support it.
At the back of my mind I can see one of my sons at a wedding, (actually his wedding), sucking in one of those balloons so he could talk funny.

His funny voice only lasted about one sentence despite having breathed in a whole balloon full. He did this with four ballons over the space of 20 minutes and stopped because he started feeling a bit iffy.

I don't know the volumn inside a ballon but it did seem that four balloons being inhaled totally was a lot of gas.

So if we go down the road of commercially available products which use gas as a propellent, not only would it appear that an enormous amount of cans would have to be squirted but presumably, there would be a huge pile of their contents laying about. Plus the noise that most of these cans make must be heard by the occupants, particularly at night as it would sound like a nest of snakes.


Nitorogen is certainly used as an alternative in food stuffs as it is tasteless and smelless but surely a dozen cans of Anchor cream would be noticed after the robbery, if not the cans then the cream.

I'm staying agnositc on this one.


----------



## androidGB

Pusser said:


> Nitorogen is certainly used as an alternative in food stuffs as it is tasteless and smelless but surely a dozen cans of Anchor cream would be noticed after the robbery, if not the cans then the cream.
> 
> I'm staying agnositc on this one.


Is it Nitrogen ?

Because as we spend all of our lives breathing 80% Nitrogen, I wouldn't have thought it would have many any difference.

My personal view is that this thread has now been done to death, points for and against are now being repeated, let's leave it where it is, failing that I may ask to become the first volunteer to lock myself in my van and start spraying the whipped cream and easy start.

Now there's a thought


----------



## Texas

*Gas attacks*

Just to add to the uncertainty....when I said that the French CRS police - see my earlier post - were warning people to be on their alert, because of gas attacks, I forgot to say that the robbers (alledged) method was to knock on your door, when you answered, they sprayed you in the face with a gas of some sort. Believe it or not, that is what the police said.

Sleep tight,

Texas


----------



## androidGB

*Re: Gas attacks*



Texas said:


> Just to add to the uncertainty....when I said that the French CRS police - see my earlier post - were warning people to be on their alert, because of gas attacks, I forgot to say that the robbers (alledged) method was to knock on your door, when you answered, they sprayed you in the face with a gas of some sort. Believe it or not, that is what the police said.
> 
> Sleep tight,
> 
> Texas


So, in that case a gas alarm would make no difference. This is where we all came in I think.


----------



## 89281

Just read all the way through, do I get an award for the most debate prompted by a newbie? :wink: 

Looking at the evidence I now believe that there have been victims but I cannot believe the gas is administered from through a broken window. All the calculations about how much gas it would take are pretty convincing.

However, if the thieves can enter a van silently they could then smother the victim with an ether loaded hankie to knock them out long enough for the thieves to do their deed and be away. I am sure that would leve people feeling 'heavy' in the morning.

Overall I am voting 'myth' but with the greatest of respect to people who hold the opposite view.


----------



## Anonymous

I agree Android and I said a few posts back that we are just repeating oursleves and going round in circles with this debate now. We all have our own opinions and none of us can prove or disprove these theories - so really, we are just wasting our time trying to stuff our opinions down one anothers throats because until we have some hard evidence that has been scientifically proven none of us can confidently say one way or another what is true and what is untrue.

For those that wish to be on the safe side until either theory has been proven then buying an alarm would probably be a wise idea and at least then you can relax when out on the road and for those of us that do not feel that they are at risk - then please let's respect their views also. Remember that we have all formed our opinions based on the facts we have been exposed to - so let's try not to take each others opinions personally. 

I really hope the Foreign Office or whoever it is that is responsible for checking out such claims and threats as this really do investigate these attacks fully and insteasd of just giving out these warnings they actually do their homework so that the public can be fully and properly informed of the dangers.

I think we have debated the socks of this subject now and I personally do not feel I can contribute any more to this debate - so unless some fresh evidence can be brought to this topic I will leave you all to argue amongst yourselves. I am sure some of you will carry on "debating" this thread as I get the feeling that one or two members probably enjoy being confrontational! 

All the best

Sue

P.S. By the way I voted Myth - but like Muncy said in his last post I too do this with the greatest respect for folk who share the opposite view to mine.


----------



## 88724

Hi Muncy

Hanky loaded with ether, chloroform etc would not work its an hollywood myth, I have a link somewhere, but just off to work. Besides which it would lead to sores.

Every single MO that as been suggested here and elsewhere, have been proved by "evidence" to be unworkable.

I think some people are mixing up possibilty with reality, of course it is possible to spray gas in, but I dont think that is what is under discussion.

Opinions are your religion, favourite colour, Blondes brunnettes political views.

Not valid as opinions are things like saying "I believe wood is a non ferros metal" it ignores the facts. Some opinions just dont hold up or completely ignore the facts.

George


----------



## Anonymous

If everyone sends and email to [email protected] asking them for further infomation, maybe we can get a result


----------



## Detourer

At last some sense and real chance of gas attack happening. you open door and are SPRAYED with CS, Pepper or whatever. Not an Urban Myth, this type of attack does, I am sure happen.........don't know about MH's but that's not the point. Rather, you stand a small (very, very small) chance of falling victim to a TYPE of assult, but not because you have a MH, just that you are there and in it.....bad luck, chance, wrong place wrong time. Gas sprays are cheap and easly available. BUT, I will not loose any sleep or let it spoil a night out in the MH. More chance of being attacked (Mugged) walking down any high street in the UK or road/track leading to my parked MH. And you certainly stand more chance of having your home robbed while away in your MH.......In short, no more and no less chance of being a victim than......whatever.


----------



## elbino

Well done Pusser, I have sent my request off via your link and I think everybody else should do the same


----------



## 91917

To gas attack someone with a sedative gas means generally Laughing gas, Nitrous oxide IIRC or Ether and it according to an anethitist ( Spl) I have spoken to today you would require a huge amount. Alternatively incapacitant gas such as CS Sarin, Tabun etc would do far more damage or simply leave to many traces, plus a young lady I have known for years who lives in st Etienne in France has not been able to find any recorded cases in french media sources???


----------



## Texas

*Electric charge*

Slightly changing the thread here. I was reading recently...I think in the August issue of the 'French Hunting Magazine' that you can purchase one of those nasty electrical devices that gives any one it is applied, to a rather nasty knock out ZAP. What on earth would you need - lawfully- one of those lethal sounding things for?

What is this world coming to?

Hairaising or what?

Texas


----------



## 90473

Texas,

no point in changing the course of a very long thread. Post as a separate subject and I'm sure someone will be along to offer an opinion.

I'll even start it off for you


----------



## Anonymous

With the amount I smoke, I could be rendered unconscious by someone squirting oxygen in my face..


----------



## Anonymous

Oh no, ---- (sharp intake of breath) ---- 3 - 4 posts back a man went OFF TOPIC. 8O 

How should this be dealt with?

Another poll perhaps?

Q. If I clear off to the warmer rain for the winter - (hint: isn't that what a camper, sorry, motorhome is for?) - will this thread still be running when I return? It would make me feel more secure if it was.

Thank you.

PS. My apologies to all if this appears not at all amusing if you are sober. I blame Portuguese figo spirit. 
(VERY cheap at a certain Cooperativa in the Algarve.)


----------



## 88790

*Re: Electric charge*



Texas said:


> Slightly changing the thread here. I was reading recently...I think in the August issue of the 'French Hunting Magazine' that you can purchase one of those nasty electrical devices that gives any one it is applied, to a rather nasty knock out ZAP. What on earth would you need - lawfully- one of those lethal sounding things for?
> 
> Texas


Perhaps you could use it when you open the door to the 'Gas' man, get in first!

Mind you I am sure someone would say that's a silly post, John!

:wink: :wink:


----------



## 90473

> I'll even start it off for you


 :lol: you beat me to it jabber, I was going to use that line

S'pose that makes us both a pair of silly posters :wink:


----------



## Anonymous

Oh dear! So sorry if I ruffled someones feathers! 

Sue


----------



## 88790

No Ken it means we both came from the same the same good quality mould.

Like my Autosleeper?

John :wink:


----------



## dave29

Having waded through all the postings on this subject IMHO I think that with a few notable exceptions most have missed the point. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't really matter whether gassing is fact or fiction since its alleged use is to facilitate entry and robbery. So I'm going to spend my time and money strengthening the primary security weaknesses on my van. Cab doors, habitation windows, habitation door. And when I've done that as well as possible that's it. If I do eventually get a gas alarm it will be to detect any internal propane leaks. I've quite got used to my hairy legs and I want to keep them that way!


----------



## 88860

It amazes me to see the current pool result as 66% of the people say it is an urban myth, yet when one reads the motorhome mags that come out every month there is always reported at least one incident that this in not the case. My own view is that it does happen that is why I fiited up one of these alarms. We have this year experienced to incidents , one in Northern Spain and the second in Northern France where people have tried to ambush us and secondly steal our motorhome. We do not have a big fancy motorhome, fortunately it is well alarmed. I think people that travel on a regular basis abroad may well share my view.


----------



## 88724

Hi Justice 

of course robberies occur, its just that narcotic gas is NOT used, if you read thru this thread and take into account the views expressed by professional anaesthetists you will see that it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Do you really believe that some scrotes in France have better gases than super powers? 

Its beyond all reason that anyone even thinks it is remotely possible and the motorhome press do not report verified cases you are reading the adverts, I have all the rags and its only in the "infomercials" that this rubbish is spouted.

George


----------



## peedee

Just a post to say I think it is worth linking this thread to :

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/posts4055-30.html

So for further reading click on the above.

peedee


----------



## 89601

Hello!
I have been away a couple of days in hospital for a kidney surgery. 
I took the opportunity to ask the anaesthetist about gas i MH. He thought it would be impossible to use anaesthetic gas as it would require a great amount and it is hard to get and very expensive to buy. One possibility would be to use carbon monoxide or dioxide which is very easy to get hold of. The disadvantage is that the victims would die and we haven´t heard anything about that, have we? If the victims was killed there would be a post-mortem which would prove that gas had been used. I think we would have heard of that!

No, I´m convinced that it is rumours planted by manufacturer of gas alarms and camping site owners who doesn´t like people not using their facilities.

At least here in Sweden, the camping owners are very sour on wild campers. But thats only because they haven't understood the idea of freedom with motorhoming.


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## Anonymous

*A Professional Opinion from an Expert*

Hi Everyone,

I'm amazed to see this thread is still ongoing.

In an attempt to put it to bed, I have asked a colleague of mine, who is Professor of Anesthetics at Edinburgh University to put a small peice together on why, in his professional opinion it would be "IMPOSSIBLE" for such an event to occur.

He might take a few weeks but I will post as soon as he has completed it. He has even said he is willing to put his name to the piece of work. However it will only be based on his professional opinion and not on any form of research.

Happy Camping,

Stewart


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## 90172

again I will come in on this.
I agree with all that the profeessional guys say. it would be impossible to use an anesthetic gas in these situations.
I. volume 2. danger of explosion 3. danger of killing the victims and a few others.
However there are other things to take into account.
as I stated elsewhere. I have been involved in situations where a soporific is used.
it can't be used in a situation where the potential victim is awake as they would realise they were feeling drowsy and this is why the government agencies do not use it in hostage situations.
exactly what it is I can not tell you, I don't know and my experiences are now 20 years behind the times. 
if the spec forces have it available then it is possible that the criminals can get hold of it or something else similar. my own belief it more a nerve agent that an anesthetic gas but don't have the expertise to confirm it.
having read of the after effects posted earlier in this topic they are identical to those I know to be correct.
I still don't believe in the gas alarms but in addition to my little fan I am now going to fit several personal alarm things to doors and windows. terrific idea and simple and cheap. whether they would actually wake me if I was to become a victim I do not know but then I think the noise would deter them from actually entering. I like the idea of the lights and pir system too, another good , cheap, effective way to protect oneself.

to sum up my views
I am not at all sure these attacks occur but the means DO exist and therefore they are possible if unlikely.
protection is best done before not after an attack has occurred.

I hope it never happens to anyone here even if it does prove it possible

oh and the volume thing, the stuff that we used for a house was the size of a cricketball which is why I suspect nerve agent rather than narcotic or soporific gas. it was also odourless and tasteless.
to the computer wizards perhaps a search for the means would be possible. i understand there are websites that show you how to make a nuclear device so it may be there is one showing how to make something that would safely knock out a couple of people in a van. 
just an idea


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## 90172

and I also agree on the scaremongering tactics of the marketing people to sell devices that may or may not be effective. I would like to see the small print on one of their blurbs or contracts or even better a g'tee.
If anyone has one please e-mail it to me.


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## 88724

Hi Roi

Checked out the Special forces angle, ex SAS recent serving, Quote "hollywood bull****" there is no gas available that would be any use even if half asleep (discounting Nerve gases, most of which would cause more fatalities anyway) Anaeshetist no chance at all, half awake or otherwise. So if its hidden from the SAS which special forces have it? and if the special forces have it, why as it not been successfully used?

Spetznatz would have used in school siege, they tried in theatre seige, result ? How many dead and seriously injured from the rescuers gas?.

Most normal sopo's cause gag/choke reaction and would wake up some one who was fully asleep.

Will be good to see Stewarts colleague the Professor of anaestheticts piece on why it cant be done.

URBAN legend still without a doubt


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## 93469

Let's imaine you are a campsite owner. 


> camping owners .... haven't understood the idea of freedom with motorhoming.


Why would you _not_ want people to stay with you? Please....



> No, I´m convinced that it is rumours planted by ... camping site owners who doesn´t like people not using their facilities


Can you really believe this? Another example of true-life "wild camping" attitude: camp site owners = scaremoungers ?? Why is it that "wild campers" are so often defensive....
If this is true and gas-attack rumours help to stop the awful so-called "wild camping" so often observed then, whilst not in the best of ways, some good is coming out of them.

Personally, I doubt if specalist gas is used... and if it was - how would the victims know it? do the robbers leave information on their modus operandi? calling cards perhaps? but if it is, it is... all you can do is to try and be as safe as you can, park sensibly (on an aire or campsite which _offers security_ maybe?) and not invite attention or trouble

Even if you have some kind of detector - if the gas does its supposed job won't you just hear a few beeps then fall to sleep anyway? Now if you are "wild camping" who else would hear the alarm anyway - let alone act on it?? and what about the robbers - do they wear gas masks, does the gas disperse for their safe entry moments later ????

Common sense must prevail - why would someone obtain (presumably) quite expensive (black market?) specialist gas - carry it around and risk getting caught with it - in order to steal a motorhomers' watch and camera ??? If the gas existed surely there are other much more profitable targets it would be used on.... (and reported in the media)

...and if it is used - entry still has to be gained to the van. wonder if anyone has parked out in the open, fallen asleep after a few bottles of wine, forgotten to lock the door or left a window open, fallen unfortunate victim to an opportunist theif and slept right through it. Admitting that is a lot more embarassing than an intriging gas attack story!

I do feel for anyone who has been robbed - I myself has a tyre slashed at some traffic lights by robbers on motorbikes and was attacked when I had to stop (although put up a fight and nothing was taken) - but its a fact of life that some situations attract more risk than others.

Wonder why the focus is on the method of attack/robbery rather than trying to avoid it (as far as possible) all together?


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## 88724

Hi coolcolly

good points on gassing, but on wild camping, its you that seems to not "get it", I didnt get into camping to spend all my time on paid sites, part of the fun and freedom is being in different places and not having to have the hook up and terraces of other campers.

Camp sites are good, when you want them spent 10 days on a great Belguim site last year, but also 4 days wild camping, its the variaty and oppurtunities that are attractive, we dont need to be stuck on only using sites.

George


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## 93469

Each to their own - as they say! If you were a campsite owner wouldnt it p- you off somewhat if you could see so-called "wild campers" from your site?!
Its a certain type of wild camping that's objectionable as you can see referenced in several of my other posts.

Not to divert from the topic - I was surprised by theory that gas attack rumours are being spread by campsite owners to prevent wild camping? Wild campers vs malicious rumour spreading capitalist campsite owners perhaps?!

Do you believe that is so...?


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## 88724

Hi coolcolly

The fact of site owners spreading rumours is infinately more likely than an actual "gas" attack.

George


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## 89601

coolcolly said:


> Let's imaine you are a campsite owner.
> 
> 
> 
> camping owners .... haven't understood the idea of freedom with motorhoming.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you _not_ want people to stay with you? Please....
Click to expand...

If I was a camping owner I would certainly want guests with tents, caravans and motorhomes. No question about that. But here in Sweden we have the "Allemansrätt" which states that you are allowed to stay one night on public or private ground without the landowners permission as long as the land is not fenced as an garden around a domestic house, an enterprise or farmers fields with crops. But often you can read articles in media written by campsite owners or their guests/friends that make the wild campers look like criminals (more or less). And of course they like to mention the gas attacks at the same time. Which attacks? And why mention them when talking about the benefits of staying in a camp site?


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## 90172

ok George. I obviously wasn't in special forces or maybe I was confused and maybe it was a cricket ball. you believe "Urban Myth" and I'll continue to take precautions. It seems nothing will change your mind.


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## 88724

Hi Roi

Sorry you feel that way, I asked a Recent Ex SAS, maybe they stopped using it because it was totally useless and dangerous?

Can you give me a clue to any operation and in which theater of operations was used in? 

Geo


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## spykal

Hi all

It seems there is a gas that would have the effects described but it may also kill the victims, as happened in Russia recently during a hostage situation. The gas is based on the chemical etorphine which is also used in the darts that vets use to incapacitate wild animals.

Taken from a web news article:

_We all have seen Africa wildlife documentaries, such as on the Discovery Channel, showing researchers immobilizing and capturing big animals such as elephants, giraffes, rhinos and hippos by "darting" them - firing a hypodermic needle into them with a dart gun. The incapacitating chemical the animals are darted with is etorphine, known to animal researchers as M99.

M99 is a synthetic opiate more than 500 times as powerful as morphine, more than 250 times as powerful as heroin. The great danger with M99 is that the lethal dose is only a few (normally three to six, depending on the animal) times higher than the effective incapacitating dose.

M99 is widely and commercially available. The Russians' "secret" is that they made an aerosol spray out of M99 (normally a powder dissolved in water), converting it into a "gas." Their grave mistake was that they guessed too high on what the effective dose would be.

Too much M99 causes respiratory paralysis. The muscles of your lungs and diaphragm can't move. Death from hypoxia - no air, no oxygen - comes quickly. And that's what happened to the 116 dead hostages: They stopped breathing._

_Prior to the assault, the commandos pumped an "incapacitating gas" into the theater via the ventilation system. The gas did its job. All of the terrorists were immobilized, some of them women, wearing bomb belts and sitting among the hostages, who had threatened to blow themselves up along with all the people around them if an attack was made upon them. _

So there you are .....is this the gas that the east european gangs are using on unsuspecting motorhomers and truck drivers?

Mike


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## 88741

Sounds feasible Mike, but why in that case have their been no deaths from a gas like that surely it can't be that they have just been lucky so far?


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## Anonymous

I did a search on dogpile and the only reference I could find re gas attacks was in MotorhomeFacts. This post is making my brain hurt. I was undecided when it first started and still undecided a year later.

On the one hand it seems certain that people have been robbed while they sleep and are convinced gas was used while on the other hand, experts have said it is impossible to do.

So perhaps we should be widening our thoughts as to other methods that may have been used but give the impression that gas is the culprit. Is there a Nightol or Horlicks spray?


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## peedee

Experts are not always right! Take the cases of the women jailed for the deaths of their children by a so called expert and the sitings of UFOs which some pour cold water upon. Of course some are completely false but did't one eventually emerge to be the 'stealth plane' built by the USA?

I for one voted that I do think they occur inspite of all said here. I will be erring on the safe side, I won't go so far as fitting a gas alarm but I will certainly be wary where I park and will be beefing up my security this year.

peedee


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## 88724

Hi Peedee

I think the children case was different in that they could not believe that so many children in the care of the same women all died from cot death, I think the conviction was based on the odds against and the fact that its hard to determine the actual cause of death, which is why the conviction is unsafe. I would think she as not been proved Innocent its more that they have not enough evidence to prove guilt and thats a totally different thing, I have no idea if she is guilty or not

Back to robbery gas attacks, The simple fact that wrong percentages Kill and the fact that with people of different body weights cannot be catered for would make deaths a certainty, also some would be nearer the ingress of gas and some further away, anaesthetists can get it wrong even when up close and personal, how can some scrote spray gas in randomly and do a better Job than an anaesthtist? Old young pregnat etc all effect amount required, take all this into consideration and you still think it possible that some scrote can do it?

Same Special forces as example above, even when they get Carte Blanche to operate, as a soporific ever been used operationally other than the well documented effort above? check out results.

All the ones claimed to have been used are highley flammable, yet no fires or bangs from fridge pilot light? Have the vans ever caught fire next day due to all this flammable gas absorbed into furniture? No-one as ever mentioned the smell. Read up on the gases most iginite with the tiniest hint of static, in theatre they have many precautions because of this.

Every shred of evidence says Its not possible, its never happened, its an URBAN LEGEND without any shadow of doubt. 

Elvis is more likely to be alive and wild camping all over europe.


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## peedee

Whether guilty or not the experts were believed and they are not always right.

I know you will never be convinced otherwise George but the Ruskies must have thought they stood a fair chance of suceding. Doesn't a thief operate on this basis? All villains are not so dumb as people would like to think. Don't some of them make up synthetic drugs or process the raw material to produce them so why could they not make up/get hold of a gas? They sell drugs knowing that it could kill someone so why not use a gas with the possible consequence of an overdose. It must be much easier to get the quantity within safe limits in a confined space to effect a few people than in the huge space of a theatre holding hundreds of people. 

I'll maintain an open mind on the subject.

peedee


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## 88741

So I ask again why no deaths and a post mortem that concludes cause of death that is linked to a gas, I cannot believe some people, especially asthmatics, would not be more vunerable to gas than a 13stone healthy man and if gas had been used would have died as a result of inhalation


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## peedee

Could it be sheer luck? Do we really know the margins for error are very small? Perhaps because no one has died there is a fair amount of tolerance on the other hand unlike drug taking perhaps there have been insufficient incidents for any errors to show up? 

peedee


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## 88724

Hi Peedee


Do you know why dentists at local practices no longer use gas? because of the risks thats with one person under controlled conditions.

The margin for error is a very small percentage by body weight look it up online, not going to post a link otherwise bias will be claimed, run an google search and see.

No given the above and the differences in bodyweight and position in van it could not be luck or educated guess.

The thief actually stands no chance of succeeding without causing deaths.

Peedee having an open mind is one thing, ignoring all the facts to maintian it is another, there is not the slightest chance of it being possible.

We will probably never know whethor the women is actually guilty or innocent and If we ignore all experts should she now be innocent all the second expert did was cast a reasonable doubt, it as not proved anything one way or another.

Every shred of evidence says that gassing is not possible (without deaths and many other side effects)

I'll define possible of course an idiot could march up to a van and spray in a gas, what I say (and all the evidence, is that so far nobody as been stupid enough to try, thankfully)

Why do the police in these countries allow people to drive off? Potentially very dabngerous, why are they not sent straight to hospital, for safety and observation?

Insurance company bod that deals with Euro cover as not come accros any evidence at all, Journalist gave up as could find no evidence and even the French police have no records of any attacks, yet according to the people that sell them "reports of these attacks are increasing!" 

Everytime you see these stories there is an advert right there on same page for a gas alarm !


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## peedee

> Do you know why dentists at local practices no longer use gas? because of the risks thats with one person under controlled conditions.


So villians don't take risks?



> The margin for error is a very small percentage by body weight look it up online, not going to post a link otherwise bias will be claimed, run an google search and see.


Do we know for certain what it is they are using. Until you know that you cannot make any claims.



> The thief actually stands no chance of succeeding without causing deaths.


So why didn't everyone die in the Russian affair? In your judgement they should have done.



> Everytime you see these stories there is an advert right there on same page for a gas alarm !


Not so George many organisations see fit to issue warnings, including the British police to truckers. Ok so they could be being over cautious but they are not advertising.

peedee


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## 88724

Peedee

Lets try a different tack

There is no known gas that is safe to use, so if these clever crooks have invented one why are they so dumb as not to sell it to goverment? would make far more money than trawling Aires to gas people for a few pounds and their camera's and watches.

Are they the Criminal genius types fom Batman movies, but to dumb to make money legally fom their endevours, where did they test for safety?

Its just too far fetched for words.

When I asked the Home office they said its alien Technology that was leaked from area 51, but they arent releasing that to general public to avoid panic in the camping fratenity. Actually they say its just a pecaution due to all the hype OTR they dont believe it either, do ring and ask what evidence they have, last time it was nil.


Quote

"Do we know for certain what it is they are using. Until you know that you cannot make any claims. "

This does not make sense, according to the above anything claimed by anyone will always be possible and you could never discount anything because it could always be something we do not know aout yet.

No Peedee in my Judgement in a large building like that some would die others not, in a van/motorhome which are far smaller would expect far higher casualty rate.


But then again we are dealing with criminal genius/small time crooks dont you see the contradiction?


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## peedee

GeorgeTelford said:


> Peedee
> 
> Lets try a different tack


Yes.... Lets just agree to differ, at least we got another vote added to the poll. Considering this thread has been read over 5000 time 88 votes is a pretty poor showing after all the opinion expressed. Surely 88 of us didn't generate 5000 plus reads. Guess we all grow weary of the subject.

peedee


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## 88724

Hi again

Daneilla Westebrook as today revealed that she was "gassed" with her two very young daughters at home in a £10,000 raid at her french home (the £10,000 is aledgedly made up of designer clothes and Bling)


The story is bottom page 3 Todays SUN No I dont usually read it.

No actual gassing evidence presented.


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## 88724

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005171158,00.html

The Article


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## spykal

Hi George

Interesting but this is clipped from an "sins of the celebs" article about Daniella Westbrook.....do you think she could really tell if she had been gassed?:

_Perhaps the most devastating effects of drugs that the public has witnessed in recent years is that of former EastEnders star, Daniella Westbrook. Surrounded by drugs from an early age, she took her first line of cocaine at 14. By the time she was 21 she was spending up to £400 a day on drugs. 
She once admitted sitting alone in a room thinking that she'd already seen the Richard and Judy show, only to realise that she'd been sitting there for 24 hours. The drug abuse continued. In June 2000 she was photographed leaving an awards ceremony with the septum/colonna of her nose missing. 
_

Mike


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## 88724

Hi Mike

I think we all know that she and her Kids were not gassed, robbed? I think its the 3rd insurance claim in a very short period..........


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## james

I don't know if this has been answered, but what gas are the gas attack alarms designed to test for? Different gasses require different detection methods so the manufactures must have designed them to test for something, or are they just re-badged smoke detectors?
I personally am 100% convinced that these attacks are an urban myth. Any scumbag that decides to rob tourists as his specialist industry will not have the brains, skills or even planning ability to procure, invent, manufacture or even find out about such a gas. Especially since no one else seems to know about it. It is obviously so rare that it must be very expensive to buy. A thief looking to fill his pockets with a few Euros and the odd camera must be in the same league as a handbag snatcher and will hardly be in the market for rare and exotic narcotic gasses unknown to professionals and powerful enough to knock out but not kill anyone sleeping anywhere in the MH including the overcab bed and maybe under a fresh air vent.
It just does not make sense.
James


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## apothecary

*Re: My opinion*



Anonymous said:


> As a Medical Doctor myself, I personally feel these gas attacks are somewhat "Urban Myths" Given the amount of anesthetic that would be required to fill a motorhome, given the amount of ventilation points in a motorhome, would make it highly unlikely on two fronts. The first being quantity, you would require a terrific amount of the stuff, and trying to get the oxygen mix correct would be extremely difficult. Secondly the cost, Anesthetic (any type) is not cheap and not very readily available. Given the small amount of gain they are going to achieve from robbing a motorhome must outweigh the cost of the product.
> 
> My personal opinion, and may I say it is merely my personal opinion, is that this gassing myth has all to do with pride. If you awake in the morning after a heavy days drive and you find your motorhome has been robbed. It is much gentler on ones pride to tell the tale of how you were gassed and robbed, rather than say you slept through the whole event. It also makes a better story round the campfire!
> 
> Happy Camping
> 
> Stewart


I'm a pharmacist and would confirm what Stewart has said. In addition, if crooks are using old fashioned anaethestics like chloroform or ether, they run a very big risk of an explosion. Ether is particularly explosive at the right concentrations. Both crooks and victims are likely to be visible on an air traffic control radar screen.
Enjoy your camping, be safe, but don't get paranoid. (Unless you need some tablets, in which case , drop me a line!)

Dave


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## nofixedabode

A while back in this thread someone asked why had no test been done to prove one way or the other. My thoughts on this are thus

The experiment would be extremely expensive to conduct, what with all the experts and sensing equipment, who would want to spend this amount? Answer the people who have most gain in proving that it is not an urban myth, the sellers of the alarms. Imagine how many they would sell if they could prove their case

So ask yourself why don’t they do so, I think you can all see where this is going.

If people want to spend money on a useless gadgets go ahead, I’ve got a house full of them, but don’t think it will protect you from thefts in the night, after you’ve had a few to drink and forgotten to lock the door. A "reduced intelligence due to alcohol" alarm, would be more use. Hmmmm where did I leave my soldering iron.


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## annej

*Gas Attacks*

Forgive me if this question has been asked on this thread already. I have read seven or so pages so far. In most postings about gas attacks (not just this thread) the gas is reported to have been administered through an open roof vent. Can anyone explain to me how someone manages to climb on to the roof of a motorhome without waking the occupants? How many cannisters of gas does the perpetrator have? Has he worked out how many he needs before he clambers up on to the roof? How many cannisters of gas does it take to "do the job" in an average 6 to 7 metre motorhome? Why do a lot of these cases occur on motorway aires? And why are they not reported to the local police? Just one more question, why is no-one reporting that larger motorhomes, i.e. 6/7 berths, containing all the usual things that families with teenagers have, computerized games, expensive camera mobile 'phones and all the other paraphernalia that they have? I am afraid that I am one of those people who have to "stick their finger in the wound", I think we are called Doubting Thomas's.


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## 89095

Perhaps if anyone here knows Robin Braddow, Technical Support for Club Brownhlls they could ask him to confirm his source

quote from this months MMM supplement "Escape"



> Most of the incidents have taken place where there are a large number motorhomes mostly traveling to or from a resort.
> These bandits are using chemicals like Ether, which they spray into the motorhome through the vents...............


of course he did go on to try and sell a product to deter this from happening to you :?


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## 88724

It really should be made an offence

1. to put forth such nonsense 
2. to con people into buying a detector, this is worse than snake oil (snake oil does have its uses) 
3. to print that rubbish with no evidence (ie the reality is that they would never be able to publish) How they have managed to con the foriegn office into publishing a warning I dont know, having rang the FO they admit to having NOT one SHRED of EVIDENCE and yet they still have not removed this laughable warning.

Do a google and you will see that this con is only for the UK market.


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## 88838

GeorgeTelford said:


> It really should be made an offence
> 
> 1. to put forth such nonsense
> 2. to con people into buying a detector, this is worse than snake oil (snake oil does have its uses)
> 3. to print that rubbish with no evidence (ie the reality is that they would never be able to publish) How they have managed to con the foriegn office into publishing a warning I dont know, having rang the FO they admit to having NOT one SHRED of EVIDENCE and yet they still have not removed this laughable warning.
> 
> Do a google and you will see that this con is only for the UK market.


 :? are you implying that we are particularly gullible in the UK???
just 'cos we keep re-electing the reverend blair :roll:

8)


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## 88724

Hi Twooks

I dont equate the two things, I think maybe Blairs still in because we have the best chancellor ever (IMHO), but thats another debate all togethor.

We do seem to be a nation of people who are completely losing the plot, stranger danger is virtually no existant (last was Sarah Payne 2001) and yet we are virtually imprisoning all our kids.

Nanny as gone mad in this country and people are swallowing petty rules that help no-one and solve in the main non existant problems.

In any other country we would have had the talking heads on the case (gas attacks) and pretty soon realised it was all hype and people were being sold a bill of good's

Only mentioning the above examples to show the climate of worry worts in the UK.


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## 2point

Stranger danger not a problem? Of course the main threat is within the family unit or friends of the family, but to not recognise a threat because it has been subdued due to vigilence is irresponsible.

What utopia do you live in?


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## 88724

Hi 2 point

Its not been subdued due to vigilence, it was never a regular problem before, count all the cases since the 60's then divide even with al the Brady and Hindley cases it doesnt happen very often at all, never as. Any case is one to many, but to isolate all kids to save one in 7 million is ott.

More kids have died in plane crashes should we stop flying?, more have died in fairgrounds should we ban them too, now get this, more have died in school buses and they are the safest form of transport on the planet bar none should we stop then being transported to school or on school trips? Kids get abused in churchs, in the scouts

Some level of sanity needs to be brought to bear, the only way to avoid risk is to do nothing but even then........

This is going off topic, new thread or PM ? PM me or start a new thread lets not post any more in this subject here..


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## 88741

Well done George ,my sentiments are exactly with your last sentence :wink:


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## 88927

Hi Twooks
Just for the record I am not one of the 15 people who voted for the smiling idiot!!! And George I do not agree with the Chancellor being good at all, have you seen Britains debt figures???? Terrifying eh??
Regarding your other comments George, I totally agree with your sentiments.
Very well put. We are becoming a nation of frightened rats and I sometimes wonder if it is not because the Nanny State wraps us all up so tightly that we no longer think for ourselves, we just follow instructions and do what we are told (well some of us I guess).
interesting thread.....
Keith


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## thefman

:lol: we have camped wild allover france and spain with no prob. all you have to do is pick your spot with a bit of forthought use yer noggin, and you will have ball. ps.never heard of or met anyone who has been gassed. :lol:


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## bognormike

Right, this post has been done to death, and certainly has gone off topic. I think it's time to put a lock on it. If anybody has NEW input you are obviously entitled to start a new thread.


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