# Speeding Tuggers



## blade1889 (Jul 14, 2008)

Last weekend on the M42 & M5 I was overtaken no less than 8 times by caravans doing 70 mph !!
I have noticed that this is on the increase.

Are these people mad? 
Is is it safe?

It is not surprising that every weekend we hear of a Caravan overturned on our Motorways.

Are other witnessing this?


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

All the time, and in lane 3.

60 max and lanes 1 & 2 only, brain dead moronic 4x4 drivers usually with all the family on board and sometimes with teenager in the caravan.

Kev.


----------



## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

I've been overtaken a few times recently by tuggers (when going along at 60mph on cruise control), but it's not exclusively them, some larger motorhomes have also gone past, and of course loads of white vans :roll:


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

bognormike said:


> I've been overtaken a few times recently by tuggers (when going along at 60mph on cruise control), but it's not exclusively them, some larger motorhomes have also gone past, and of course loads of white vans :roll:


Large Motorhomes (up to 7.5t) can do 70 as can white van man on motorways, 7.5t trucks can also do 70 and use lane 3, but there is a cut off year, which I'm not sure of.

Kev.


----------



## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/newsande...-01-05newrequirementsforroadspeedlimiters.htm

Peter


----------



## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> bognormike said:
> 
> 
> > I've been overtaken a few times recently by tuggers (when going along at 60mph on cruise control), but it's not exclusively them, some larger motorhomes have also gone past, and of course loads of white vans :roll:
> ...


did I mention motorways? :lol: On ordinary dual carriageways as well.....


----------



## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

If the rig is stable and is being held up by slow trucks taking forever to pass another truck, and the rig is quick enough to get past then I have no issue with increasing speed to get by, but some caravan owners take it to extremes, lulled into a false sense of security and then it all falls apart when they get hit by a side-draft from a truck or trailer.

We run the trailer at 60mph whenever we can, and generally we are pretty prompt in passing, but haven't tried the third lane yet 

Peter


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

bognormike said:


> did I mention motorways? :lol: On ordinary dual carriageways as well.....


No Mike, but on dual carriageways a Motorhome can do 70 too, but not sure how far up the weight scale that goes, but probably 7.5t, white van man cannot or tuggers, a car derived van can do the same as a car, but the law is a bit grey over vans like the Scudo class.

I should add that I'm not too up on the latest regs, but the above was in force up til about 2009.

Kev.


----------



## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Generally, it's the old 'windows behind the drivers seat' rule, except that it's been tarted up a tad to make it compliant with EU rules.

Dual carriageways are a nightmare for commercial vans, 60mph and the trucks are overtaking you!

Apart from ASDA trucks on the A421 who for some reason are the slowest of all the traffic.

Peter


----------



## Christine600 (Jan 20, 2011)

Here in Germany I've seen tuggers speeding by my MH when keeping to the 100 km/h limit my MH has here.

One of them had quite the wobble on his caravan but he managed to reel it in.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

The best two places I know for watching tuggers get out of shape is either side of Shap, M6 and saddleworth moor down to windy hill M62.

I would think yours will be quite well behaved the Peter.

Kev.


----------



## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

The big trailer just trundles along  It isn't affected by side winds at all. 3.5tonnes keeps the wheels well on the ground!

Being drawbar, you don't get the imposed load from the A-frame, but we do get a bit of 'shunting' over rough roads and motorway bumps.

Holland is best for towing, very flat and they have wind deflection screens in places known to have side wind issues.

Peter


----------



## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> bognormike said:
> 
> 
> > did I mention motorways? :lol: On ordinary dual carriageways as well.....
> ...


A motorhome over 3500kg is restricted to 60mph on a dual carriageway and 50 mph on a single carriageway unless a lower speed limit is in force. So it is not easy to blame caravanners if motorhomers are not aware of the law.
And, yes a modern caravan is perfectly stable up to 100mph or more given the rightweight combination. 
I wonder how many motorhomes are road and track tested as extensively as british caravans. Probably none.
Gerry


----------



## KeithChesterfield (Mar 12, 2010)

It's not the speed you go up - it's the speed you go down!


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

GerryD said:


> A motorhome over 3500kg is restricted to 60mph on a dual carriageway and 50 mph on a single carriageway unless a lower speed limit is in force.
> Gerry


Where did you find that Gerry, I couldn't find anything that specific when I searched earlier, it's all worth knowing, my last MH was 3850kg, and I've quite happily done 70 on dual carriage ways, not knowing I was over my limit.

Kev.


----------



## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

Speed limits


----------



## locrep (Dec 5, 2011)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> The best two places I know for watching tuggers get out of shape is either side of Shap, M6 and saddleworth moor down to windy hill M62.
> 
> I would think yours will be quite well behaved the Peter.
> 
> Kev.


The section heading south on Shap just before Carnfoth (if memory is correct) on the M6 could easily spoil your day even at 32 ton if the side wind caught you out..

Dave.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

aultymer said:


> Speed limits


Thanks I went there this afternoon but it's not specific to motorhomes, only cars bikes and commercial vehicles of which we are non.

A copper stopped me for speeding in 2009 and told me I was OK up to 70 on a dual carriageway.

Kev.


----------



## Zozzer (Aug 13, 2006)

Kev_n_Liz said:



> The best two places I know for watching tuggers get out of shape is either side of Shap, M6 and saddleworth moor down to windy hill M62.
> 
> I would think yours will be quite well behaved the Peter.
> 
> Kev.


The decent down Saddleworth into Greater Manchester is particularily nasty. There is a blind valley on the lefte hand side and when it's windy it blows down the valley then does a U turn at the end. This results in the wind catching many a person out first one way then the other, it's not just tuggers or high sided vehicle, but also cars coming down the outside lane at excessive speeds. Doesn't half make folk grip the seat with the cheeks of their bum.


----------



## Gary1944 (Feb 21, 2009)

Totally agree, many caravanners seem to think they can drive as if solo. We spent many years towing and stuck to the speed limits. I remember one trip on French Autoroutes running at about 70mph (legally and safely) but NEVER did this in UK.

Now stick to 60-65 with 3.5T 7m motorhome with 3 litre engine, not because I can't legally drive faster, but because I don't need to, but do need to keep the fuel consumption to a reasonable level.

Mind you when I get a bit p......d off with some of my fellow road users it don't arf go!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: 

All the best, Gary


----------



## Twm-Twp (Jun 14, 2012)

You beat me to it Aultymer.

I'm amazed at how many people are unaware of the safety regs that apply to their vans. 

I responded to one person (DJMotorhomer) a few days ago who thought his Autocruise Startrails' gross vehicle weight (3.5 tonnes) was his unladen weight. I think he finally accepted the information I politely gave him with what I can only describe as 'less than good grace'........ I was trying to put him wise for his own safety. Don't think I'll bother again.


----------



## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

GerryD said:


> A motorhome over 3500kg is restricted to 60mph on a dual carriageway and 50 mph on a single carriageway unless a lower speed limit is in force. So it is not easy to blame caravanners if motorhomers are not aware of the law.


In fact, I think it is motorhomes with an unladen weight over 3,050 kg (not 3,500kg) that are restricted to 60mph on dual carriageways and 50mph on other roads. Have a look here.


----------



## duxdeluxe (Sep 2, 2007)

That right and people have been ticketed for over 60 on a dual carriageway. I think it was on here or maybe one of the other forums that someone got done 3 times on the A14 for it - had to argue about the unladen weight


----------



## BrianJP (Sep 17, 2010)

OK so who decides what your Unladen weight is . My Rapido has no documentation regarding this only for the max weight ie 3400kg.

Regarding Tuggers I wish they would speed more .In my long driving experience they are a pain in the a**e and hold up other motorists more than any other vehicles on the road including trucks and tractors.


----------



## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

> Thanks I went there this afternoon but it's not specific to motorhomes, only cars bikes and commercial vehicles of which we are non.


Just you drive at the speed you like - it's not me that will get the points!


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Our mh always seems to go faster when we are on the way home.
I used to be a tugger, nowt worse than an unstable outfit overtaking.
I am a silver van man and motorcyclist too.

Speeders in all forms of transport.
Dave p


----------



## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

BrianJP said:


> OK so who decides what your Unladen weight is . My Rapido has no documentation regarding this only for the max weight ie 3400kg.


There was a long thread about this some six months or so ago. From recollection the general consensus was that it is difficult to determine the unladen weight.


----------



## Twm-Twp (Jun 14, 2012)

BrianJP said:


> OK so who decides what your Unladen weight is . My Rapido has no documentation regarding this only for the max weight ie 3400kg.


The short and simple answer to that question is: You do !!!!

Take your van minus all of your luggage, bits and pieces (as it was when you bought it) along to a weighbridge and weigh it. Might cost you about a tenner, probably less. Don't have a full tank of fuel when you weigh and your water and waste tanks should be empty. That will give you an idea of your unladen or tare weight.

Take your tare weight away from your gross vehicle weight and that will give you your payload weight, i.e the weight you are allowed to load into your van, including you, the missus, the dogs and all the clothes, food, water, kit and caboodle you need to carry on your trips.

Checkweighs are not uncommon - especially if your van looks heavy.

'Looks heavy' ..... that might sound stupid to you, but it won't sound stupid to a traffic policeman with time on his hands !!

Although it is very easy to 'unwittingly' exceed your m/h gross weight - the consequences can be disastrous especially when your braking efficiency or steering may be affected.

Worse case scenario (and I'm not scaremongering) is that you are involved in a fatal accident. The police will always impound vehicles involved in fatals pending investigation. If they find the accident was caused by loss of control due to overloading you may find yourself being prosecuted / with a criminal record if not imprisonment / and your insurance company may refuse to pay out leaving you with third party claims to meet ....... or in other words bankruptcy (unless you are very rich !).

PS: Check the DVLA website - their info is what you must obey.


----------



## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Twm-Twp said:


> .......your insurance company may refuse to pay out leaving you with third party claims to meet ....... or in other words bankruptcy (unless you are very rich !).


I don't know if you have any cases of this that you can quote but I would suggest that it is very unusual indeed. I would think that the insurance company would have to prove that you knew that the van was overweight and that you were therefore reckless in the extreme. I do not believe that an insurance company could or would refuse to pay in the event of an unknown overloading - i.e.a mistake.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

aultymer said:


> > Thanks I went there this afternoon but it's not specific to motorhomes, only cars bikes and commercial vehicles of which we are non.
> 
> 
> Just you drive at the speed you like - it's not me that will get the points!


Aultymer it's got nothing to do with what I like, if anyone says there is a law, I say, show me the the limits on the direct.gov site, or VOSA, or any legitimate government site, it's not an argument.

If it's the law it should be written down somewhere, so far all I've seen is the UKMotorhome site, but that is a only a quote at best, not proof of what the limits are, so can't be relied upon either.

I'm quite happy to follow any written law you can show me.

As far as a commercial vehicle is concerned the limits are lower, but the only information I've found is that a "motor caravan" is treated as a private car with associated limits.

Kev.


----------



## cheshiregordon (Sep 24, 2011)

when i go away driving in my van I want it to be fun and enjoyable - not having to worry about speed limits or who is overtaking me etc etc. The engine seems to be comfortable and relaxed ticking along the motorway around 50mph but will if hurried move along alot faster (well above the limit)
So for me I just cruise along around 50 and let all the others do their thing - rushing past, using up fuel and increasing their BP.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

cheshiregordon said:


> when i go away driving in my van I want it to be fun and enjoyable - not having to worry about speed limits or who is overtaking me etc etc. The engine seems to be comfortable and relaxed ticking along the motorway around 50mph but will if hurried move along alot faster (well above the limit)
> So for me I just cruise along around 50 and let all the others do their thing - rushing past, using up fuel and increasing their BP.


Us too 99% of the time, no rush we're on holiday, but things happen, you're on your way home and suddenly you need to get there today as you have a forgotten appointment, what ever you need to go a bit faster, it's useful to know what the limits are for you MH.

I would never go over 70 in an MH regardless as it's a huge lump to stop in a hurry.

I am not condoning speed in any vehicle, but I'm no saint and put me on a nice bike, and I'll wind the wick up a tad on a nice bit of tarmac.

But most of the time I'm a responsible adult :roll: and obey the law, just so long as I know what it is.

Kev.


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

It is surprising how often speed limits for MH's is discused on all sorts of forums;

The speed limit for vehicles including those registerd as Motor Caravans is set in Section 86(1) and Schedule 6 of The Traffic Regulation act 1984.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/schedule/6

Speed Limits for Vehicles of Certain Classes

A passenger vehicle, motor caravan or dual-purpose vehicle not drawing a trailer being a vehicle with an unladen weight exceeding 3·05 tonnes or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers:

(i) if not exceeding 12 metres in overall length 70 60 50 
(ii) if exceeding 12 metres in overall length 60 60 50

By default if under 3.05t unladen weight the speed limit is as for cars.

This link for example from Devon and Cornwall Police is very precise: 
http://www.dcsafetycameras.org/education/carDrivers/index.aspx

Specifically: Detailed Version Of Section 86 (1) and Schedule 6 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984

It is unlikely that any motor caravan driver is aware of the Unladen Weight as defined in the Traffic Regulations. The best they could do is go by the MIRO {Mass in running Order} given by the manufacturer. This will in most cases be heavier than the Unladen Weight.
I suspect that what happens in practice is that with a MH plated at a MGW of over 3.5t there would be an assumption by the authorities that the Unladen Weight was above 3.05t. It would be up to the driver to provide information a part of the defence that refutes this. If the MH is plated at 3.5t maximum or less then there is more likely to be an assumption that the higher speed limits apply. As with all these things it will take an individual court case to rule one way or another unless the Police or CPS accept pre trial submissions.


----------



## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

peribro said:


> GerryD said:
> 
> 
> > A motorhome over 3500kg is restricted to 60mph on a dual carriageway and 50 mph on a single carriageway unless a lower speed limit is in force. So it is not easy to blame caravanners if motorhomers are not aware of the law.
> ...


Yes you're right. It is the 3050kg limit that determines speed. 3500kg determines taxation class.
Gerry


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

rayc said:


> A passenger vehicle, motor caravan or dual-purpose vehicle not drawing a trailer being a vehicle with an unladen weight exceeding 3·05 tonnes or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers:
> 
> (i) if not exceeding 12 metres in overall length 70 60 50
> (ii) if exceeding 12 metres in overall length 60 60 50
> ...


Thanks for that Ray, yet another site, at least a government one though, so I was illegal at 70 on a Motorway, although I never did the unladen weight, with a gross of 3850kg, I probably wouldn't get under 3050kg even if I took the seats out 

I then have to ask when I do the self build is the unladen weight the empty weight of the van before I start the build or when it's finished as there will be a vast difference.

Why is all this info scattered over so many different sites, they say ignorance of the law is no excuse, but they don't make it easy to check it all, there should one site with all laws concerning vehicles, and decent search engine.

Kev.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

GerryD said:


> peribro said:
> 
> 
> > GerryD said:
> ...


They could make it a lot simpler by not having so many different methods of classification for different things.

Kev.


----------



## Twm-Twp (Jun 14, 2012)

peribro said:


> I don't know if you have any cases of this that you can quote but I would suggest that it is very unusual indeed. I would think that the insurance company would have to prove that you knew that the van was overweight and that you were therefore reckless in the extreme. I do not believe that an insurance company could or would refuse to pay in the event of an unknown overloading - i.e.a mistake.


Hi Peribo, I don't want to go off thread on this post .... its turning out to be a useful debate on speed limits.

All I will say is that if the police have enough evidence to prosecute under the C&U regulations for using a vehicle in a dangerous condition, i.e. overloaded to the point where braking efficiency is seriously impaired or steering is adversely affected then your insurer may decline your claim and any other claims against your policy. Read the terms and conditions on your motor policy.

In addition, you will find that your insurers don't have to prove anything .... its the policy holder that will have to prove that his gross overloading was a mistake. Anyone who overloads his vehicle to the point of putting it in a dangerous condition isn't making a mistake .... I would argue that he / she is being downright negligent and ignorance of the law is no defence.


----------



## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> I then have to ask when I do the self build is the unladen weight the empty weight of the van before I start the build or when it's finished as there will be a vast difference.


The DVLA defines unladen weight as "The unladen weight of any vehicle is the vehicles own weight when not carrying any goods or burden. This is inclusive of the body and all parts which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the v
ehicle or trailer when working on a road exclusive of fuel and, in the case of an electrically powered vehicle, the batteries".

It will be the weight when you have finished.


----------



## Twm-Twp (Jun 14, 2012)

peribro said:


> The DVLA defines unladen weight as "The unladen weight of any vehicle is the vehicles own weight when not carrying any goods or burden. This is inclusive of the body and all parts which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the v
> ehicle or trailer when working on a road exclusive of fuel and, in the case of an electrically powered vehicle, the batteries".
> 
> It will be the weight when you have finished.


Wrong interpretation Peribo, the section you have taken this info from relates to goods vehicles.

The tare weight of a motorhome is the weight of the chassis vehicle plus the body and all the stuff / permanent fixtures that goes inside to make it a motorhome, i.e. the cooker, fridge, beds, toilet etc etc etc. It also includes any permanent extras you may have fitted, i.e. bike rack, tow bar, satellite dish etc etc. If you weigh your van in this condition, it is known as the tare weight.

You will then be allowed to load your van (the payload) with the stuff you take with you on holiday, clothes, food, pots, pans, dishes the wife, the dog etc etc up to the gross weight of your vehicle.

My Augusta's GVW is 4.250 tonnes .... my tare weight is just over 3.500 tonnes. I am therefore allowed to carry just 750 kgs of 'stuff' in the van.

I get around this by towing a car (to increase my payload) which I load up with the loungers, the safari room, the table and fold chairs etc. I'm allowed to do this providing I don't exceed my gross train weight (GTW).


----------



## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

rayc said:


> This link for example from Devon and Cornwall Police is very precise:
> http://www.dcsafetycameras.org/education/carDrivers/index.aspx


Go to this page 
http://www.dcsafetycameras.org/enforcement/gatso.aspx
bring up the properties of the image and check out it's caption shown as "associated Text"

Nice to know they think it's funny. :roll:


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Stanner said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > This link for example from Devon and Cornwall Police is very precise:
> ...


I tried but too thick to work out how this morning.

Kev.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Twm-Twp & Peribo, unless I'm missing something you're both saying the same thing.

Peribo succinctly says when it's finished which makes sense.

Twm-Twp (oddest name I've seen yet   ) says "The tare weight of a motorhome is the weight of the chassis vehicle plus the body and all the stuff / permanent fixtures that goes inside to make it a motorhome, i.e. the cooker, fridge, beds, toilet etc etc etc. It also includes any permanent extras you may have fitted, i.e. bike rack, tow bar, satellite dish etc etc." IE finished.

Kev.


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > A passenger vehicle, motor caravan or dual-purpose vehicle not drawing a trailer being a vehicle with an unladen weight exceeding 3·05 tonnes or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers:
> ...


Motor caravans of any weight can legally do 70mph on a motorway.The difference is on dual carriageways and single carriageways where the 3.05t Unladen Weight has an effect on the speed limit for the vehicle.

As far as Unladen Weight goes the only data that a MH owner will have tht is legally acceptable is what the manufacturer provides. They currently give the Unladen Weight in accordance with a EU regulation EC 92/21.

The Rapido website says "When purchasing a RAPIDO, the unladen weight includes the weight of the vehicle's standard equipment. 
The unladen weight of camping-cars is determined in compliance with the laws currently in force and includes the vehicle in working order, the driver (75kg), the gas bottle, fresh water and fuel tanks up to 90 % of their capacitywith a tolerance of +/-5 % (in accordance with European Directive EC 92/21). 
It is therefore the responsibility of the user to adjust the load and the number of passengers on board according to the payload and the weight of any additional equipment he installed or has had installed in the vehicle".

This weight is not the same as the legally defined Unladen Weight, which should be lower.


----------



## camper69 (Aug 30, 2007)

It's not just tuggers who speed. I got over taken by a RV pulling a car on the M1 on Friday. I was doing 70 mph

Derek


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

rayc said:


> Kev_n_Liz said:
> 
> 
> > rayc said:
> ...


My head is starting to hurt now, too many different ways of saying 70 60 50, OK got it, right up until my next ticket.

Thanks for the excellent research Ray.

Kev.


----------



## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Autotrail uses the term Mass in Running Order which it defines as: 

"The mass in running order is the mass of the unladen vehicle with a 75kg allowance for a driver, 90% of the fuel and fresh water capacity and gas cylinders." 

Knowing that the MIRO of my van is 3,450 kg and knowing the capacities of the tanks and the weight of the supplied gas bottle, I can therefore work out that the unladen weight is approximately 3,190kg.


----------



## Twm-Twp (Jun 14, 2012)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Twm-Twp & Peribo, unless I'm missing something you're both saying the same thing.
> 
> Peribo succinctly says when it's finished which makes sense.
> 
> ...


I was assuming that when Peribo refers to finished .... he is thinking that it is the van loaded with all the equipment we might take on our journeys with us, e.g. pots, pans etc etc etc ... finished.

If my assumption is incorrect then I apologise.

This is my favourite photo of Twm and trust me, he is very, very twp. I have never known a dog that likes a cwtch as much as he does


----------



## Twm-Twp (Jun 14, 2012)

peribro said:


> Autotrail uses the term Mass in Running Order which it defines as:
> 
> "The mass in running order is the mass of the unladen vehicle with a 75kg allowance for a driver, 90% of the fuel and fresh water capacity and gas cylinders."
> 
> Knowing that the MIRO of my van is 3,450 kg and knowing the capacities of the tanks and the weight of the supplied gas bottle, I can therefore work out that the unladen weight is approximately 3,190kg.


Autotrail have a great website page on this subject and allows Autotrail owners to calculate weights with a good degree of precision.

This type of easy to understand information should be made available to all motorhome owners. By that I mean this website page should be more widely advertised. I note that the info also includes a warning of the potential consequences of exceeding your GVW.


----------



## philoaks (Sep 2, 2008)

Twm-Twp said:


> This is my favourite photo of Twm and trust me, he is very, very twp. I have never known a dog that likes a cwtch as much as he does


    Da iawn Twm!


----------



## trevd01 (Oct 26, 2007)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> My head is starting to hurt now, too many different ways of saying 70 60 50, OK got it, right up until my next ticket.
> 
> Thanks for the excellent research Ray.
> 
> Kev.


As you are doing a self-build you do have an interesting alternative. Leave the body type as 'box van' on your logbook. The unladen weight of your 'van' will be about 2.8 tonnes, depending on the exact model.

It will save you the hassle of trying to persuade VOSA/DVLA it is actually a 'motor caravan'. :twisted:


----------



## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

So if I bought a 6m van I would think the likes of Mercedes/Fiat/VW etc could tell me the unladen weight, which would probably be below 3,05 tons. 

I could then take it to a converter, or do a Kev_n_Liz, which would end up with a new unladen weight, but also possibly different speed limits will apply, dependant on the weight of curtains my Mrs chooses?! (being slightly silly about it) 

The reality is no-one will know the new unladen weight for a camper. There should be a plate to tell you based on specific guidelines. Is a drivers beer belly incorporated separately in the payload? Is the mattress a fixture, what happens if I change the light foam for a thick futon, or one of those heavy traditional horsehair things? Two big gas bottles that I could swap for one small one if Im in a rush for a short trip, giving a higher legal cruising speed?

There may only be a few things like that which could provide variance, but that could certainly be enough for you to be found guilty of speeding by creeping over 3050kg unladen. 

Trucks in the USA do 70mph. I wonder how much attention you would get importing a 4 axle 30 ton gross box here, converting to a camper and sitting at 70 on the motorway?


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

trevd01 said:


> Kev_n_Liz said:
> 
> 
> > My head is starting to hurt now, too many different ways of saying 70 60 50, OK got it, right up until my next ticket.
> ...


The UW is much lower than that Trev, + the build gear of course, but it's the insurance which gets you, same van, same driver, put a load of expensive gear in it and the insurance goes down, uprate the GVW & the road tax goes down, and we're supposed to understand the logic in that.

My UW=2060kg, I have no idea how much weight the new interior will add.

Hopefully it'll be less than 990Kgs

Kev.


----------



## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Twm-Twp said:


> I was assuming that when Peribo refers to finished .... he is thinking that it is the van loaded with all the equipment we might take on our journeys with us, e.g. pots, pans etc etc etc ... finished.


No. I was using the meaning that Kev had used when he said "I then have to ask when I do the self build is the unladen weight the empty weight of the van before I start the build or when it's finished as there will be a vast difference."


Twm-Twp said:


> If my assumption is incorrect then I apologise.


Thanks!


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

When you assume you put an Ass in front of You & me.

Assumption is what happens when you have to go to so many places to pick up bits incomplete info then try to make sense of it.

So with the greatest of respect for the combined intelligence on here (flattery will get you lots of stamps) where does that leave a self builder such as I?

My van

Original manufacturers UW = 2060Kg
add my building materials of 989Kg hopefully less.
will add up to a new UW of 3049Kg 

Which in theory keeps me legal at 70 on Dual carriageways except it doesn't does it.

Kev.


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> When you assume you put an Ass in front of You & me.
> 
> Assumption is what happens when you have to go to so many places to pick up bits incomplete info then try to make sense of it.
> 
> ...


What is the theory? If you are using the 3050kg Unladen Weight as the criteria then the vehicle must be registered as a Motor Caravan which would allow a speed of 70mph on a dual carriageway. You would have to have some acceptable documented evidence of its Unladen Weight. If you decide to leave it registered as whatever it was before conversion then the limits that applied to it prior to conversion would still apply.


----------



## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

rayc said:


> If you decide to leave it registered as whatever it was before conversion then the limits that applied to it prior to conversion would still apply.


If the unladen weights of a goods vehicle include the "body", wouldn't that include everything thats screwed in?

A van converted to sell fish and chips would include potatoes, oil, and fish as goods and the load carried, but not the fridge or fryers?

The unladen weight of a bus must include the seats?

A bare chassis would have one unladen weight when sold, but then post specialist conversion could have all manners of bodies bolted on changing the unladen weight?


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

grizzlyj said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > If you decide to leave it registered as whatever it was before conversion then the limits that applied to it prior to conversion would still apply.
> ...


Yes the same rules would apply to the chip van as apply to motor caravans. It would be a multi stage build vehicle and the converter would have to stipulate the exworks unladen weight. Motorcaravan manufactures do it in compliance with an EC directive, I do not know what procedures specialist vehicle converters use. There are rules for a self build conversion which is to be registered as a Motor Caravan, is that what you are intending to do?


----------



## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

Me convert something? In the future maybe, but currently just wondering  If I did it will be about 8 tons anyway 

I didn't get how post conversion leaving it described as was allowed more speed if it went past that weight. I'd misunderstood what you were saying, and forgot that the 3050kg only applies to campers, if thats correct?


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

grizzlyj said:


> I'd misunderstood what you were saying, and forgot that the 3050kg only applies to campers, if thats correct?


Not quite, it applies to "A passenger vehicle, motor caravan or dual-purpose vehicle not drawing a trailer or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers:"


----------



## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Which in theory keeps me legal at 70 on Dual carriageways except it doesn't does it.


Why doesn't it? :? If the weight is 3,049kg then I don't see why you think you are restricted to the lower speed limits. Surely once you've finished the conversion, won't you take the van to a weighbridge ensuring that you have nothing on board whatsoever other than the minimum of fuel. Then if you weight it with you on the outside, won't that give you the unladen weight?


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

peribro said:


> Kev_n_Liz said:
> 
> 
> > Which in theory keeps me legal at 70 on Dual carriageways except it doesn't does it.
> ...


Because of what Rayc posted earlier, and I hadn't included in the total added to the UW.

"The unladen weight of camping-cars is determined in compliance with the laws currently in force and includes the vehicle in working order, the driver (75kg), the gas bottle, fresh water and fuel tanks up to 90 % of their capacitywith a tolerance of +/-5 % (in accordance with European Directive EC 92/21). 
It is therefore the responsibility of the user to adjust the load and the number of passengers on board according to the payload and the weight of any additional equipment he installed or has had installed in the vehicle". "

Diesel =0.856kg per litre
water = 1kg per litre
Gas bottle will be about 20kg
Plus my own fat self, would screw up my attempt to keep the unladen weight below 3050kg.

motor caravan NOT exceeding 3050kg unladen
60mph	70mph	70mph

motor caravan, exceeding 3050kg unladen
50mph	60mph	70mph

shortened for relevance to us.

Kev.


----------



## trevd01 (Oct 26, 2007)

Kev

You have a pm


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

trevd01 said:


> Kev
> 
> You have a pm


Redit Redit Redit Redit :lol: :lol:


----------



## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Because of what Rayc posted earlier, and I hadn't included in the total added to the UW.
> 
> "The unladen weight of camping-cars is determined in compliance with the laws currently in force and includes the vehicle in working order, the driver (75kg), the gas bottle, fresh water and fuel tanks up to 90 % of their capacitywith a tolerance of +/-5 % (in accordance with European Directive EC 92/21).
> It is therefore the responsibility of the user to adjust the load and the number of passengers on board according to the payload and the weight of any additional equipment he installed or has had installed in the vehicle". "
> ...


Rayc said at the end of his post that "This weight is not the same as the legally defined Unladen Weight, which should be lower." and he is absolutely correct.

The legal definition in the UK of Unladen Weight is contained in The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, where it states that "unladen weight [is] the weight of a vehicle or trailer inclusive of the body and all parts (the heavier being taken where alternative bodies or parts are used) which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road, but exclusive of the weight of water, fuel or accumulators used for the purpose of the supply of power for the propulsion of the vehicle or, as the case may be, of any vehicle by which the trailer is drawn, and of loose tools and loose equipment.

The EU Council Directive 92/21/EEC of 31 March 1992 does not use the term Unladen Weight but it does define Mass of the Vehicle in Running Order as "..means the mass of the vehicle with bodywork in running order (including coolant, oils, fuel, spare wheel, tools and driver). "

Confusingly, Rapido has used the term unladen weight to describe what other manufacturers and the EU call Mass in Running Order.

The correct UK legal definition of Unladen Weight is therefore what is contained in the UK legislation and not in a French motorhome manufacturer's website or brochure!!


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

peribro said:


> Kev_n_Liz said:
> 
> 
> > Because of what Rayc posted earlier, and I hadn't included in the total added to the UW.
> ...


That is very true but in the unlikely event that you receive a Notice of Intended Prosecution for a speeding offence, where the Unladen Weight of less than 3.05t is to be used as a defence, what official document would you have to back up your defence?


----------



## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

rayc said:


> That is very true but in the unlikely event that you receive a Notice of Intended Prosecution for a speeding offence, where the Unladen Weight of less than 3.05t is to be used as a defence, what official document would you have to back up your defence?


I think it's up to the prosecution to prove that an offence was being committed rather than the other way around. Therefore I think that they would need to prove that the unladen weight of the van was over 3,050kg. In practice though I imagine that may not stop a prosecution being brought and obviously a defendant would want to be able to argue his / her case as strongly as possible. The best way I imagine of proving the weight would be to take the unladen van to a VOSA weighbridge and have them certify the unladen weight. I would imagine that the prosecution would be dropped if you supplied a copy of that certified weight to the prosecuting authorities.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Couldn't the UW simply be established by draining all tanks, emptying all cupboards, and anything else not physically fastened to the van, then weigh it?

Kev.


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

peribro said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > That is very true but in the unlikely event that you receive a Notice of Intended Prosecution for a speeding offence, where the Unladen Weight of less than 3.05t is to be used as a defence, what official document would you have to back up your defence?
> ...


It will be up to you to plead Not Guilty and cast doubt on their evidence. In my opinion that is a lot easier if the MIRO figure issued by the manufacturer is not far in excess of the 3.05t mark and the MGW less than 3.5t.
Still its all preety academic as I have not seen in any of the MH forums I frequent of anyone being in that position. It would only apply on NSL Single and Dual carriageways and in a fairly low speed band of up to 10mph over the more than 3.05t Unladen Weight limit.


----------



## rayrecrok (Nov 21, 2008)

Hmm I have read all this thread as it goes along and the only thing I get out of it is a headache.. Sandra puts it in the van, I think do we need it and take it out when she is not looking only to find we need it and then not have it to the chorus of I "know" I put it in before we set off!..

A couple of days off in the van and you can control the weight problem, go for a few months and it becomes a real challenge especially when wild camping and you have all the water tanks full as it can be hard to get water, so you end up carrying extra water in containers, plus a couple of extra gas bottles oh and of course we will need this and that.. Hmm I have turned into Sandra's mentality..

The answers got to be, buy a lorry :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

ray.


----------



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

peribro said:


> Kev_n_Liz said:
> 
> 
> > Because of what Rayc posted earlier, and I hadn't included in the total added to the UW.
> ...


Peribro

From your helpful quote on the definition of "unladen weight' and in particular the phrase ' necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road' would it be correct to exclude the weight of a towbar, TV aerial, additional mirrors, leisure batteries, fridge, cooker, gas bottles, mattresses/cushions, overhead bed and spare wheel?

I am not being facetious, just trying to establish what is meant by the phrase quoted.

Is there any case law?

Geoff


----------



## trevd01 (Oct 26, 2007)

I went on a 'driver education' course a couple of years ago run by Dorset police. A great deal of the course was about knowing what the speed limit is at all times, and illustrating that with slides different types of road etc.

One guy on the course was driving a van when caught and asked if there were different speed limits, which was easy to answer, as he was driving a 'car derived van'.

I then asked about speed limits for 'motor caravans' (which before this thread started, I had always belived to be the same as cars). The highly experienced instructors (private contractors but ex -police) has no idea...


----------



## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

nicholsong said:


> From your helpful quote on the definition of "unladen weight' and in particular the phrase ' necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road' would it be correct to exclude the weight of a towbar, TV aerial, additional mirrors, leisure batteries, fridge, cooker, gas bottles, mattresses/cushions, overhead bed and spare wheel?
> 
> I am not being facetious, just trying to establish what is meant by the phrase quoted.
> 
> ...


I don't know the answer Geoff, so can only guess but I would think that it would be incorrect to exclude those things you have mentioned other than gas bottles. Certainly Autotrail would appear to think they should be included since they define Mass in Running Order as "the mass of the unladen vehicle with a 75kg allowance for a driver, 90% of the fuel and fresh water capacity and gas cylinders". If they had excluded the other items you mention from the unladen weight then I imagine they would be having to add them back to calculate the MIRO - but since they don't then I presume they must have included them in the unladen weight in the first place.

I don't know if there is any case law on motorhomes and unladen weight but I would doubt it. I imagine that a definitive interpretation could probably be provided by any of the UK manufacturers or by VOSA though.

Peter


----------

