# Intermittent tyre deflation problem



## Bagshanty

As we were heading across Greece to catch the ferry to Italy, my wife noticed we had an almost flat rear tyre. I then noticed the other rear tyre was also almost flat.

I pumped them up and went to see the local tyre man, who had both wheels off to check. One tyre he found a small leak around the valve, so he replaced that, but the other he could find no leak at all.
Datisfued, we got on the overnight ferry to Ancona, to find them both soft again after 2 days. After that we regularly put in more air every tim we got fuel. Some days the tyre stayed up, other days it dropped from 80 to 30 psi.

We had to put another 50 psi in each at Folkstone after the tunnel, to get us to Dorset - and the tyres are still up after 4 days.

Has anybody got any idea what might be going on? There is nothing worse than an intermittent fault. The tyres are Michelin Camping, and the van is only 2 1/2 years old.

And by the by, free air was no problem anywhere in Europe. At the Total services in the tunnel area at Folkstone, air cost 20p for 2 minutes air - and it didn't work!


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## RichardnGill

It would be my guess that a small nail is in the tread area which is barely noticeable from the out side. When the tyre is check off the vehicle it migh only be leaking very slightly but when traveling as the tyre flexes air will be lost quicker. 

The best way to get this checked is to have the tyre removed and carefully inspected from the inside.

One other possibility is the rim has a slight hairline crack and only leakes when hot or moving.


Hope this helps Richard...


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## aultymer

Try steel valves if they are not already fitted.
If you have the tyres off anyway for checking you might as well fit them then.


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## colian

Bagshanty,

You might have a similar problem to that we had with my wifes car, where one of the tyres kept loosing pressure, I took it to a friends tyre centre and he took all the tyres off the rims and re seated them . This did the trick.
Basically over time some times air starts seeping out between the tyre and the rim and justs needs re sealing and seating. if your tyres are still in good condition give this a try before you spend out no new ones.

ian


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## EJB

The above suggestions make a lot of sense.....now buy yourself a cheap 12V inflator from Halfords...you might need to extend the cable :wink:


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## CliveMott

Stop hitting the kerbs!!


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## exmusso

*Tyre deflation*

Hi Bagshanty,

Apart from the above suggestions, I would certainly consider Ultraseal and this may give a telltale of the leak location.

I tried this successfully a couple of years ago on a ride on mower whose tyre had been punctured in a couple of places with rose thorns or similar.
No longer had to worry about cornering at speed at the bottom of the lawn.  

Cheers,
Alan


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## sideways

Have had this problem, more common on alloys, if there is a small leak on the rim sometimes it will only leak if you stop with the effected bit at the bottom. you may go several days ok and then suddenly lose air, ask your local tyre man to clean and re-seal rims for you.


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## bigfoot

Years ago before we all went hi-tech the answer was to put an inner tube inside.


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## oilslick

*Mark the tyre position when you park!*

Try putting a small chalk mark on the side of the tyre, at the bottom, each time you park, rubbing out the last one. When it goes down you then know where to look in the tread for a small nail or else where to look on the rim for dirt/bad seal etc.


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## johng1974

> No longer had to worry about cornering at speed at the bottom of the lawn.


 :lol: :lol:


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## viator

*Re: Tyre deflation*



exmusso said:


> Hi Bagshanty,
> 
> Apart from the above suggestions, I would certainly consider Ultraseal and this may give a telltale of the leak location.
> 
> I tried this successfully a couple of years ago on a ride on mower whose tyre had been punctured in a couple of places with rose thorns or similar.
> No longer had to worry about cornering at speed at the bottom of the lawn.
> 
> Cheers,
> Alan


To exmusso.
That will be a Lawnborghini then.
viator


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## exmusso

*Re: Tyre deflation*

Hi Viator, Very good.  
Brings a new meaning to go-faster stripes.

Getting off topic but, as you probably know, Lamborghini make tractors and were making them before sports cars.

Ferrari also make garden tractors powered by Lombardini diesel engines - not quite as exciting as their cars.

David Brown also have an association with Aston Martin and that's where the DB designation comes from. Also make industrial gearboxes.

Harley Davidson also make golf carts etc.


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## EJB

David Brown used to own AML Ltd......he wanted something faster than his tractors!


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## Bagshanty

Thanks for all the suggestions, but they are mostly already implemented:

It was a metal valve they was leaking (slightly) where it is screwed on to the wheel;
Ultraseal is already installed;
I always carry an electric inflator - but the large van tyres take so much inflation I tend to over run them, and I'm on my 4th inflator

The sealing of tyre to wheel sounds a possibility - but it is strange that both rear tyres should fail at the same time.

Obviously I'll report back if I find the problem


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## apxc15

Just a point with regards to alloy rims. Tyre fitters use bead lube to prevent damage to the bead seal when fitting the tyres to the rim.
The use of standard water based bead lube on an alloy rim will cause corrosion.
There is a bead lube for alloy rims which fitters often, either ignore, or are not aware of.
So if you are having new tyres or even your current tyres re-fitted (puncture repair) on alloys, insist they use the correct bead lube for the job. 
In fact ask first if they have the correct lube before they start the job, if not then maybe you should consider getting the job done elsewhere.


Pete


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## viator

Apologies for going off thread with my last post. My experience of tyre pressures and types of wheel are that steel wheels were not a problem with pressure leaking but alloys certainly are, the makeup of the alloy rim in my opinion deteriorates with time, my last ,van in seven years one wheel would not maintain pressure, even after removal and re-sealing, tyres fitter's verdict, its the wheel mate. My present van, 12 months old with factory fitted alloys needs checking monthly and pressures adjusted.
viator


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## dragabed

*intermittent tyre deflation*

i was told at ats that the inertube sollution is illegal.


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## tomoo321

*ultraseal*

Has any one used http://www.ultraseal-swiftlysorted.co.uk/home1.htm to buy ultra seal,it is a good price.however it is only a mobile phone number . any one lives in that area that can help


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## Bagshanty

*Problem solved!*

... well not yet solved, but I know what it is.

ATS told me it was a tyre problem, so I ordered and had fitted 2 Vanco Camper tyres from www.blackcircles.com (very good) One week later, and one of the tyres was down to 20 psi. I know from experience it will stay at this pressure, and I had wrecked my 4th tyre inflator a few months ago (they're not man enough for m/h tyres).

So I ordered a Ring 12 volt heavy duty air compressor from CPC, £72 inc delivery (http://cpc.farnell.com/CP04588/tools-storage-handling/product.us0?sku=ring-automotive-rac900) , which arrived in about 20 hours on their standard delivery - impressive or what?). This made short work of inflating to 75 psi. It is an impressive piece of kit and a useful item to keep with you. It comes in a strong canvas bag, and is not too heavy or bulky.

With the wheel off I dunked it in a large tray of water, and quickly discovered a hairline crack in the wheel, near the valve. A new wheel is on order, but it is worrying that a crack should develop in the wheel after less than 3 years. The van has never been overloaded, running at 3.4 tonnes, and we've done 27,000 miles. The wheel is the standard steel, not an alloy.

Has anyone else had anything similar?


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## colian

Bagshanty,

I am no expert but from a lot of comments on this site and my own experience 75psi appears slightly high, I have a Bolero680FB and only inflate them to 65psi, and next time I use it I intend to go to a weigh bridge fully loaded then send details to the tyre company as they often refer to a lower pressure.

Have you confirmed your pressures or are you going by the sticker on the door pillar.

Ian


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## SpeedyDux

This thread doesn't inspire much confidence in Ultraseal.

The cracked steel wheel sounds worrying. Was it a manufacturing defect?


SD


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## RichardnGill

_



It would be my guess that a small nail is in the tread area which is barely noticeable from the out side. When the tyre is check off the vehicle it might only be leaking very slightly but when travelling as the tyre flexes air will be lost quicker.

The best way to get this checked is to have the tyre removed and carefully inspected from the inside.

One other possibility is the rim has a slight hairline crack and only leaks when hot or moving.

Hope this helps Richard...

Click to expand...

_


> I am pleased you got it sorted in the end, I did say that it could well be the rim by the symptoms you described. Things like this are one reason why tyre sealing products can be a bad idea.
> 
> Imagine it did seal the crack up allowing it to develop and then finaly let go. At least without the seal stuff you get the puncture to fix. To be honest it can be very hard to spot a crack in a rim as they sometimes only leak when they have a load on.
> 
> Richard...
Click to expand...


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## smick

*Tyre problem*

Regrettably, Bagshanty, yes it has happened before. My Dad had a Vauxhall which not only leaked, but always seemed to be out of balance. When finally sorted, it turned out that the two halves had been welded together out of true, (hence balance problem) and there was a break in the weld, which was allowing the air to seep out. That was 20 years ago - I sometimes think that we're going backwards...and juddering as we do so!


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## shackman

On the general subject of tyre pressures, and the tyre manufacturer usually advising lower pressures after weighbridge trips, today was a surprising eye opener.

I have a 3-axle jobby which on purchase had 79.5psi front, and 75 rears. I used the weighbridge today and later rang Michelin for the correct pressures.

The 'Michelin Man' advised the fronts could be reduced to 65 psi. However the two rear axles had to go up to the maximum psi as specified on the tyre type; 80psi in my case. This change is a result of EU legislation! Without that legislation, todays weighbridge figures would have given a recommended reduction down to 50psi....

It all just seems to make a mockery of the 'science' of tyre pressures as a measure of safety, wear and comfort etc.


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## RichardnGill

The reason why they will only quote high pressures for Tag axel rears is they can not be sure where the weight is and set the pressure so each axel can more or less carry all the weight. Stupid I know, but as you say no company wants to give info out that might come back at them. 

I run our Tag at 

225/75R16 
70Psi front at 2015 Kgs 
60 Psi rear at 1400 Kgs each axel 


Richard...


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## Rapide561

*Tyres*

Slightly off topic, I run my Tag axle - and the last one - at 80 psi all round. Knocked up over 20,000 miles in 18 months with good economy and, touch wood, no tyre problems.

Russell

80 psi was advised to me by Michelin on the phone, but he did say 65 - 80 would do.


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## BJT

Corrosion to steel rims etc can cause poor sealing of tyre to rim. I have had this on several vehicles in the past. Taking the tyre off the rim, cleaning the rim with a wire brush and cleaning the sealing bead on the tyre before re-fitting normally eliminates the problem. But you should also check the tyre interior for puncture/damage while off the rim.
Either way, go to a decent tyre fitter and explain the problem. Just remember that not all tyre fitters have had the training/experience to identify these sorts of problems, hence making sure the fitter is OK and not some muppet just off the streets.


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## Bagshanty

*Intermittent tyre deflation SOLVED!*

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions. I already had metal valves, and Tyreseal installed, and indeed may have caused the problem. I bought 2 new tyres even though there was stacks of tread remaining on the originals - but a week later both tyres were down again.

Enough of letting the professionals do it - I took the wheels off, dunked them in water, and there was the leak - a minute hole in the WHEEL, close to the valve, on both wheels. As we were heading off to Croatia and Bosnia within a week I had to move quickly to buy 2 new wheels - I didn't have the time to shop around and paid £92 each. ATS changed the covers for me, and now I have 2 Fiat Ducato wheels sitting in the garage.

Making a stab at what could cause 2 wheels to have identical faults at the ame time, my guess is:

The metal valves were clumsily fitted, scoring the protective paint inside the wheel. Leter I added water based Tyreseal, and this attacked the steel where it was unprotected - there is a lot of surface rust in the area generally, which goes deeper where the hole is. Eventually this worked right through allowing air to escape. There were signs that the tyreseal had been building up round the hole, but had failed to seal it. When the pressure dropped to 30 psi or so there was insufficient pressure to force air out, so deflation stopped.

So 2 months, and 4000 miles around Croatia and Bosnia, and the tyres are still up - and I now know I can change the wheel without too much difficulty.

Comments welcomed!


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## Bagshanty

*Fiat Ducato wheel required*

I 1st posted on this topic 2 years ago, when we discovered flat tyres in Greece. These turned out to be due to manufacturing faults in the steel wheels, and as I was about to catch a ferry had to pay £92 each for replacements.

Now the same thing has happened again (not with the new wheels), but I have time to find a cheaper replacement. Does anyone know where I can get Ducato wheels to fit 215 70 R15 tyres at a less than ridiculous cost? Maybe you fitted alloys and have some spare?

An alternative is to get the cracked (hairline, about 1/2" long) welded over


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## Bagshanty

*Ducato wheels - hairline crack*

The saga continues, with some success. I contacted Fiat, and their customer services told me to get stuffed (or words to that effect). Meanwhile, I submitted a report and photo to VOSA http://www.vosa.gov.uk/ - Vehicle and Operators Services Agency. I fairly soon had an email and phone call from Fiat's "Homologation Executive", a very nice guy who arranged for my remaining 3 original wheels to be replaced, and the entire set of original 5 wheels will be returned to Italy for investigation.

I have also been in contact with another MHF member who had an identical problem, so it isn't just me!

If I get more info I'll post it here

NB pics of our recent trip to Switzerland are here: http://www.pippins.me.uk/. We're off to Spain & Portugal in 3 weeks


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## scept1c

Hi Bagshanty, I seem to remember reading a similar topic recently.

I was in Austria in May and one of my rear wheels developed a slow puncture. I took it to a tyre depot and they discovered a small crack on the inside near the valve.

They replaced the rim and regretfully I did not ask to take the faulty rim with me. After hearing that mine was not a one off, I would have approached Fiat with a view to getting a refund.


One of the other posters referred to to the value of sealants such as Ultraseal. I have Ultraseal in my tyres and it would not have helped in this situation. The sealant is thrown onto the tyres by centrifugal force and doesn't coat the rims.


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## grizzlyj

Hi

On an entirely different vehicle, I've occasionally remounted the wheels, and noticed that the lubricating paste I bought from a tyre tool supplier says to only apply it where the tyre will be, and not in the central part of the wheel.

Subsequent refitting has surface rust perhaps only to the extent of the lube. 

Weird coincidence perhaps?


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## PhilK

*tyres*

hi Bagshanty, it was me who wrote the other topic. I had a rapid blow out. My steel wheel split from the valve, about an inch tear in the steel. Fiat accept they have a problem

Phil


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## GEMMY

The saga indeed continues! :evil: 

3000 miles around Europe over the last 7 weeks, park van on the drive. Next morning rear o/s flat. Today I took the wheel into Kwikfit, expecting a nail, the rim is leaking at back of valve on inside the wheel. Took the offending article to local Fiat commercial agent (Guest Motors) it was confirmed and a new rim has been ordered. The service manager said there was a recall about 3 years ago and was surprised to see the problem again. The m/h is only 10 weeks old. 8O 

tony


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## Techno100

Seems to me that almost ALL the problems with base vehicles on the forums are FIAT FIAT FIAT.


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## EJB

Gemmy,
The chassis will be rather older than 10 weeks....1,2 or 3 years???


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## GEMMY

After waiting for 9 months for the new van, with an excuse to start with of we're waiting for chassis' to come from Fiat, then 1 2 or3 years possibly not  

Any hoo just picked up my replacement wheel and fiited to the m/h we'll see if any more go down. 8) 

tony


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## Biznoz

I've had exactly the same happen with both my rear wheels while travelling through France recently. Went to a local tyre garage after testing there was a small leak found in the rim near to the valve after replacing the rims all now is fine.

I would also make sure of getting metal valves!


Phil


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## Bagshanty

In July I wrote to VOSA, Vehicle & Operator Services Agency, at the same time as contacting FIAT. At the same time as the customer services arm of FIAT (isn't that a contradiction in terms?) were giving me the brush off, the technical side had been contacted by VOSA, and were busy arranging to change my rims, so they could investigate. So that was a result.

I heard no more until yesterday when VOSA wrote to me with their results.

"The response from the manufacturer leads us to believe, at this time, that there is insufficient evidence to warrant an action under the terms of the code..........but as the air loss will not be rapid, it does not meet the definition of a safety defect under the Code so VSB has closed the case.

"Please do not hesitate to contact me on the above telephone number (0117 954 3300. John Fitch, Automotive Engineer (Defects Investigations) if there any further points you wish to discuss"

I'd guess, that, unless someone did experience a rapid deflation due to cracked rims, that's the end of the matter. A poor show for FIAT, though


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