# French N Roads Tolls



## missmollie

Are people aware that as from July 2013 at least 10,000kms of RN roads in France are to be tolled for HGV's over 3.5t, GPS toll devices like the ones in Switzerland and Austria will have to be used by trucks. One upside to this is that the RN's will probably be quieter as the trucks may as well stay on the Autoroutes rather than be tolled on the RN's but, is this the thin end of the wedge for everyone to pay tolls?
Why can't the UK government do something similar for all the continental trucks on our roads or at least charge them £25.00 when they get off the boat or tunnel?


----------



## 113016

missmollie said:


> Are people aware that as from July 2013 at least 10,000kms of RN roads in France are to be tolled for HGV's over 3.5t, GPS toll devices like the ones in Switzerland and Austria will have to be used by trucks. One upside to this is that the RN's will probably be quieter as the trucks may as well stay on the Autoroutes rather than be tolled on the RN's but, is this the thin end of the wedge for everyone to pay tolls?
> Why can't the UK government do something similar for all the continental trucks on our roads or at least charge them £25.00 when they get off the boat or tunnel?


I did read a little while ago that the UK was going to implement something, but not heard anything lately.
Not intending to sound clever, but this was one of the reasons we purchased an Exsis, to stay below the 3500kg as I think more and more Countries will bring this sort of thing in. But France is the big one as we all transit it or stay within.
Easier to stay below than have different go boxes or similar for different Countries.

Here

http://roadpricing.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/uk-government-confirms-introduction-of.html


----------



## jedi

Where does this information come from? I have just scoured French autoroute websites and found no reference.

Jed


----------



## 113016

Just found this

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136029

http://www.as24.com/AS24/as24-Website.nsf/VS_OPM/CEA15FDCE15B446FC12579BC003B93C9?OpenDocument


----------



## teemyob

*tolls*

From what I understand. It wil not apply to private non commercial vehicles in France.

TM


----------



## 113016

*Re: tolls*



teemyob said:


> From what I understand. It wil not apply to private non commercial vehicles in France.
> 
> TM


Doesn't say that in the exemption list :?: 
Have you more info?


----------



## selstrom

missmollie said:


> Are people aware that as from July 2013 at least 10,000kms of RN roads in France are to be tolled for HGV's over 3.5t, GPS toll devices like the ones in Switzerland and Austria will have to be used by trucks.
> 
> Where has this info come from?


----------



## 113016

selstrom said:


> missmollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are people aware that as from July 2013 at least 10,000kms of RN roads in France are to be tolled for HGV's over 3.5t, GPS toll devices like the ones in Switzerland and Austria will have to be used by trucks.
> 
> Where has this info come from?
> 
> 
> 
> I have posted links. Read the second one.
Click to expand...


----------



## nicholsong

missmollie said:


> Are people aware that as from July 2013 at least 10,000kms of RN roads in France are to be tolled for HGV's over 3.5t, GPS toll devices like the ones in Switzerland and Austria will have to be used by trucks. One upside to this is that the RN's will probably be quieter as the trucks may as well stay on the Autoroutes rather than be tolled on the RN's but, is this the thin end of the wedge for everyone to pay tolls?
> Why can't the UK government do something similar for all the continental trucks on our roads or at least charge them £25.00 when they get off the boat or tunnel?


Thanks

I was not aware.

So soon if I am taking thr following route from here in Poland-CZ-A-CH-F-E I will need 5 separate boxes, just for a single leisure journey in a vehicle running 200kg over the 3.3t limit.

It makes a mockery of the EU right of movement.

Does anyone know what is the effect of having more than one box, from different countries, in the windscreen at any one time?

Geoff


----------



## peedee

Be interesting to find out for sure if it effects motorhomes above 3.5tons and which roads it is going to apply to. Many of the "N" routes are now "D" roads, hope that means they are exempt.

It also sounds like a good reason to avoid France if travelling to other countries. e.g. The Bilbao/ Santander routes could become much more attractive.

peedee


----------



## Philippft

If i have read this right Motorhomes rated at 3,5 T and below will be exempt.


----------



## 113016

Well, this sounds to be the latest scare, but with AS24 involved, it seems to have substance. Not quite sure if it effects private vehicles, so there is a glimmer of hope.  
Think Lucky  and be Lucky 

another source

http://www.trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=94535

http://uk.foxstart.com/search.php?r...sa=Search#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=france eco road tax


----------



## peedee

I see there is a map of which roads are effected on the AS24 site. Looks like all my favourite routes south will become toll routes. Even the current toll free autoroutes round Bordeaux are included.  

peedee


----------



## peedee

Just done a quick calculation and to get from northern France to the south will cost about £150 

peedee


----------



## 113016

Just been skimming through the links and it looks like teemyob might just have it right and that it is purely for goods carrying vehicles.
The only thing I think of is that heavier M/Hs are registered as Heavy Goods, although private. (PHG)
Think Lucky


----------



## peejay

I hope that its only commercial truck related.

Thinking lucky with a PHGV 3900kg Camping car.

If i'm unlucky would seriously think about kicking France into touch.

Surely we would have heard more about it by now, those French Campingcarites wouldn't take something like this without kicking up a lot of fuss.

Pete


----------



## Penquin

If you read through those links you will find the following;

_Following the council of ministers meeting, government spokesman Najat Vallaud-Belkacem provided further details of the transport minister's roadmap, confirming that the eco tax will be automatically imposed on *goods transporters when lorries exceed 3.5 tonnes *and use the country's non-privatized road network.

The *minister confirmed that the levy is designed to encourage a change in the mode of transport used to carry goods, *to favour more environmentally friendly forms of transport, notably rail and water._

It is aimed at lorries transporting goods, there is no indication that camping cars will be either included or exempted as far as I can see.... at present....

Many other pages relate to TRUCKS but none mention camping cars;

http://www.itsinternational.com/cat...ions-building-for-french-national-truck-toll/

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136029

there seems to be a general consensus that it only applies to vehicles transporting goods, but the cost (12 cents/km) is identical to autoroutes so many vehicles will switch to those as they would be quicker. The current idea is a trial in Alsace for 12 months from April and then the whole scheme rolled out in July (interesting ideas.....).

Our MH has JUST been registered by the French authorities and is no longer registered as an HGV (private or commercial) but as a caravan even though all the details are correct and the engine size mass etc are all quoted accurately - so from that we might not attract that charge if it ever does apply....

But typically French there appears to be little information available in French or English, the number of cameras is only to be 500 to identify vehicles that should have the box but don't..... so they would have to stop every vehicle, weigh it, check the V5 or equivalent and then work from that - there will be a time delay methinks...... 

There is no automatic link with DVLA at present as the UK Government wouldn't pay for it (one good thing perhaps from the budget restrictions.... :lol: ).

There are many suggestions that it has been thought about for more than 3 years partly as a response to UK threats to charge foreign lorries and also as similar schemes for goods vehicles exist in Germany, Russia and a few other countries. So the French would not want to miss out on a chance to get extra money would they......? :lol:

but they have said the N roads to be used are the major ones and if the vehicles using them drop off they will extend the system - i.e. it is a revenue exercise primarily and exclusively.......

Most of the information that is available (including the links Grath posted) are produced by the company that will be operating the system IF IT COMES INTO ACTION. i.e. there is a commercial benefit to them in encouraging more to have such things as they will get the revenue...... The device is the same type of tag as many of us use for autoroutes already - part of it came from the desire to be able to have a SANEF account with a UK based bank account - which has been mentioned on MHF before as becoming possible later this year - presumably as part of this scheme.....

If lorries are required to have these devices fitted (as the pages say) then there has to be a system to charge them - either by payment up front in advance and the company will hold it for you and will not give you any interest or by having an account and getting a 10% discount off the charges...... a total no-brainer obviously.

If anything comes out locally I will let you know......

Dave :roll:


----------



## BrianJP

Also some existing non toll roads will become toll from 2014.
For example a long stretch of the A63 between Bordeaux will become a compulsory toll road for all vehicles.When I drove down it on Monday it looked like the barriers and tollbooths were almost ready for action.


----------



## peedee

If it did apply to HGV motorhomes, and remember the majority of Continental motorhomes are 3.5 tons and under, I would definitely be kicking France into touch apart from the trip into Belgium from Calais.

peedee


----------



## Landyman

Could be Germany for us this year then, instead of France.  

We will await further clarification but the French could be shooting themselves in the foot.

Landyman.


----------



## nicholsong

Dave (penquin) wrote

"There is no automatic link with DVLA at present as the UK Government wouldn't pay for it (one good thing perhaps from the budget restrictions...."

If this is the case the French system will know nothing about UK vehicles, whether above or below 3.5t, PHGV, Motor CaraVan etc.

Unless the company operating it do a deal with DVLA - dobt if it worth there while.

If the GPS automated system does not know about UK vehicles it would be cheaper to use the 'N' roads than the Autoroutes with Peages.

Geoff


----------



## peedee

There is a good zoomable map >here< It looks like it will be impossible to avoid tolls.

The Somport tunnel, the N10 the A28 to Ruen, the A75 Millau etc etc all become toll routes

peedee


----------



## Hymervanman

The thing is how it would be controlled. At the moment the majority of us with vans OVER 3.5tons still manage to pay Class 2 on the peage because the system does not have the ability to differentiate between a 3.5t and a 3.9t vehicle- they do in the majorityof cases look identical apart from a small plate on the side of the van.
The text in any case mentions carriage of goods- motorhomes do not do this for reward and would not be covered.


----------



## peedee

Some of us stand out like a sore thumb!They do refer to freight carrying vehicles but......... Austria, Swizertland and as far as I know the others all simply go by plated weight whether motorhome or not.

peedee


----------



## Rapide561

*Tolls*

The Swiss system is a good example and in my view, great value for money.

Under 3500kg - 40 SFR for the year - any number of trips.

Over 3500kg motorhome - 32.50 SFR for the year, maximum of ten trips

It the French had the same sort of system as the Swiss, we probably would not mind too much.

Russell


----------



## nicholsong

*Re: Tolls*



Rapide561 said:


> The Swiss system is a good example and in my view, great value for money.
> 
> Under 3500kg - 40 SFR for the year - any number of trips.
> 
> Over 3500kg motorhome - 32.50 SFR for the year, maximum of ten trips
> 
> It the French had the same sort of system as the Swiss, we probably would not mind too much.
> 
> Russell


I understand that it is not 10 trips but 10 days in the country whether moving or parked. Of course it could be 10 trips if one just wanted to transit Switzerland in 1 day. But expensive if one wants to go to stay on a site for 2 weeks.

But I agree it sounds better than the French system - if they are going to apply it to Mhs.

Geoff


----------



## 113016

Has anybody actually read in detail, all of the links that I put on, apart from Penguin.
If so, Have you found any more details that I have missed. The only real thing I found was it was for goods vehicles, but it seems a little grey.


----------



## peedee

I had a look at them all. They are aimed at truckers and as such only refer to commercial and freight vehicles. Whether this excludes HGV motorhomes is unclear, nowhere so far have I seen that it doesn't.

peedee


----------



## 113016

From the link below, we will be exempt.

Passenger vehicles etc are exempt!

http://www.ecotaxe-france.com/eco-tax-what-you-need-to-know/who-is-liable/


----------



## Landyman

Grath said:


> From the link below, we will be exempt.
> 
> Passenger vehicles etc are exempt!
> 
> http://www.ecotaxe-france.com/eco-tax-what-you-need-to-know/who-is-liable/


But do we come under bus/coach etc.?
"vehicles for transporting passengers (coach, bus, etc.)"


----------



## Penquin

peedee said:


> There is a good zoomable map >here< It looks like it will be impossible to avoid tolls.
> 
> The Somport tunnel, the N10 the A28 to Ruen, the A75 Millau etc etc all become toll routes
> 
> peedee


That clickable map that you link to contains the following in the legende generale at the right hand side;

*sur les véhicules de transport de marchandises *

that very much confirms what many of us have said - it ONLY relates to vehciles transport merchandise or goods - so commercial vehicles only.

Elsewhere there are specific exemptions for military vehicles and public service vehicles and goods carrying agricultural material (clever that with the very strong French farmers unlikely to take it without a major battle :lol: ).

The more I see of the official pages the more convinced I am that it will relate to goods carrying vehicles ONLY - which is NOT Camping-cars.

This page has a LOT more details;

http://roadpricing.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/frances-ecotaxe-national-truck-tolling.html

it also says TRUCKS i.e. GOODS VEHICLE CARRYING ONLY.

_The French Ecotax is essentially a way to make money from trucks using the government owned highway network, which are currently priced off of the private and publicly owned tolled motorways. It is to generate new revenue, particularly from foreign *lorries* that enter France from Spain, Italy and Germany, some of which are avoiding the heavy vehicle distance charging systems in Germany and Switzerland as well as the French toll motorways. It essentially "plugs the gap" in charging *trucks* to use France's highways._

Dave


----------



## bognormike

Grath said:


> Has anybody actually read in detail, all of the links that I put on, apart from Penguin.
> If so, Have you found any more details that I have missed. The only real thing I found was it was for goods vehicles, but it seems a little grey.


yes, I Have!! 
and everywhere it says that it's for goods vehicles over 3.5 t. Nothing about coaches, motorhomes or any other non-goods vehicles being chargeable. As somebody said, our French camping car-istes would have been shouting very loud about this, (and I recgnise that the proportion of over 3.5t camping cars to under is smaller over there). And wouldn't coach comapnies be shouting as well? (note that Buses are a specific exemption)

see this link as well

http://roadpricing.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/frances-ecotaxe-national-truck-tolling.html

an excerpt from that -

The distance based tax will apply to all goods vehicles weighing over 3.5 tonnes, both French registered and foreign vehicles.

NOTE - * GOODS VEHICLES OVER 3.5 TONNES* !!


----------



## 113016

Penquin said:


> peedee said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a good zoomable map >here< It looks like it will be impossible to avoid tolls.
> 
> The Somport tunnel, the N10 the A28 to Ruen, the A75 Millau etc etc all become toll routes
> 
> peedee
> 
> 
> 
> That clickable map that you link to contains the following in the legende generale at the right hand side;
> 
> *sur les véhicules de transport de marchandises *
> 
> that very much confirms what many of us have said - it ONLY relates to vehciles transport merchandise or goods - so commercial vehicles only.
> 
> Elsewhere there are specific exemptions for military vehicles and public service vehicles and goods carrying agricultural material (clever that with the very strong French farmers unlikely to take it without a major battle :lol: ).
> 
> The more I see of the official pages the more convinced I am that it will relate to goods carrying vehicles ONLY - which is NOT Camping-cars.
> 
> This page has a LOT more details;
> 
> http://roadpricing.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/frances-ecotaxe-national-truck-tolling.html
> 
> it also says TRUCKS i.e. GOODS VEHICLE CARRYING ONLY.
> 
> _The French Ecotax is essentially a way to make money from trucks using the government owned highway network, which are currently priced off of the private and publicly owned tolled motorways. It is to generate new revenue, particularly from foreign *lorries* that enter France from Spain, Italy and Germany, some of which are avoiding the heavy vehicle distance charging systems in Germany and Switzerland as well as the French toll motorways. It essentially "plugs the gap" in charging *trucks* to use France's highways._
> 
> Dave
Click to expand...

Dave,
That, what I said and it was also the first link I posted.
I am pretty sure it is just for goods vehicles as we fall within the exemptions.
Think Lucky seems to be correct!


----------



## bognormike

And see this as well

http://www.direct-ecotaxe.com/27-ecotaxe-overview


----------



## 113016

Mike, this seems more relevant.
The exemptions

http://www.ecotaxe-france.com/eco-tax-what-you-need-to-know/who-is-liable/


----------



## peedee

Grath said:


> Penquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am pretty sure it is just for goods vehicles as we fall within the exemptions.
> Think Lucky seems to be correct!
> 
> 
> 
> I hope so, be nice to see camping cars mentioned under exemptions though rather than being an "etc"
> 
> peedee
Click to expand...


----------



## nicholsong

Graham

I also I have read the links, but as has been said a lot of it is written in 'truckers' websites so they are naturally referring to trucks.

I think the 'exemptions' quoted could be a bit misleading as, although they refer to 'passenger' vehicles it gives examples of 'buses and coaches'.

I am not saying any of the references to 'goods', passenger etc. are wrong but I would like to see a definitive French Govt. website before I will be totally convinced.

Geoff


----------



## bognormike

yes, and just pulled this translation of an FFCC page

FFCC link

so, don't panic!


----------



## 113016

nicholsong said:


> Graham
> 
> I also I have read the links, but as has been said a lot of it is written in 'truckers' websites so they are naturally referring to trucks.
> 
> I think the 'exemptions' quoted could be a bit misleading as, although they refer to 'passenger' vehicles it gives examples of 'buses and coaches'.
> 
> I am not saying any of the references to 'goods', passenger etc. are wrong but I would like to see a definitive French Govt. website before I will be totally convinced.
> 
> Geoff


Yes, it is a little grey, but I do think it is looking a lot more in our favour than against as it is certainly aimed at goods vehicles.
We are passengers and we don't carry any goods


----------



## peedee

bognormike said:


> yes, and just pulled this translation of an FFCC page
> 
> FFCC link
> 
> so, don't panic!


Encouraging but still to be confirmed.
peedee


----------



## Penquin

Methinks many people on MHF are doing a Don Quixote; jousting at windmills in the belief that they are ferocious giants.......

Every page that I have seen is ONLY about vehicles over 3.5t CARRYING GOODS.

Rest easy ftb until it is proven otherwise, I strongly suspect it will not be a problem for MH (Camping-Cars) which are VERY common in France........

If it is going to be an issue the MCC, CC and the C&CC will surely raise the awareness? I am sure that the RAC and AA will also if suddenly every MH over 3.5t needs a permanently installed gizmo - the French are talking about 600,000 being needed for French registered vehicles and another 200,000 for foreign registered......... Someone is going to be very busy installing nigh on a million such machines - the Far East electronics industry will be getting a big boost so China, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan and similar will be rubbing their hands with glea......... :lol: 

I wonder whose rleative runs the company? :roll: 

The introduction was delayed by six months as there was a legal case over the company chosen and the conflict of interests - but that has now been cleared.....

Dave


----------



## 113016

I was surprised that AS24 seem to have the contract. I know they have fuel dumps and have used them, but they are few and far between


----------



## tude

*Toll roads*

Having read all the threads and links its totally clear that private vehicles
Ie cars and motorhomes are exept.it only says exept vehicles over 3.5 tonnes buses and other vehicles because they come under the category .cars are not mentioned any where same as camping cars.nowt to worry
About.


----------



## nicholsong

bognormike said:


> yes, and just pulled this translation of an FFCC page
> 
> FFCC link
> 
> so, don't panic!


Mike

That was posted 11 months ago and they are still awaiting the reply from Madame Ministre.

Quel Surprise!

Geoff


----------



## clive1821

Thanks for this very interesting, I also think we in this country should do the same thing for non uk Goods trucks.... as there seems to be more non UK goods trucks than UK goods Trucks on our FREE roads :roll:


----------



## peedee

Penquin said:


> If it is going to be an issue the MCC, CC and the C&CC will surely raise the awareness?
> Dave


One would hope so. They were quick enough to point out the requirement for breathalisers. Even if it did not apply I would expect them to point this out?

peedee


----------



## 113016

clive1821 said:


> Thanks for this very interesting, I also think we in this country should do the same thing for non uk Goods trucks.... as there seems to be more non UK goods trucks than UK goods Trucks on our FREE roads :roll:


Clive, the Uk are introducing it as I posted in post two of this thread.
About time, well overdue.


----------



## menis

Hi, Reading through the various links, I think it becomes very clear that we motorhomers are not impacted.
There is a statement that this is a tax which is aimed at the final customer and that it MUST be invoiced to that customer so that they begin to consider the impact of moving goods via the road network.

I guess the concern could be that it might be the thin end of the wedge and that we may get dragged in in the future, but I think we're excluded right now.

Menis


----------



## bognormike

a google translation into english of the French Customs site

french customs

and I quote an extract (as auto-translated):-

"This fee is payable for any vehicle registered in France or abroad, jointly by the owner, tenant, sub-tenant, the driver or operator of a vehicle road transport of goods whose total weight authorized load or if the total weight permitted is an articulated, is more than three and a half tons (or greater than or equal to twelve tonnes for the vehicles subject to the Alsace experimental tax)."

unequivocal - goods vehicles.... over 3.5 tons. Why show exemptions for camping cars if it SPECIFICALLY says it applies to goods vehicles only?


----------



## barryd

Has anyone posted on the campingcarinfos forum to ask them Frenchies? I would but I have Jet lag and cant be bothered right now (and I promised not to go on here tonight). Ill do it tomorrow if you like.

Sounds like a storm in a teacup to me like the Gaslow thingy.


----------



## missmollie

*N Road Tolls*

I didn't realise what a can of worms I was opening when I posted this. I was only letting people know that the RN's should be a bit clearer of HGV's with this new system.


----------



## 113016

*Re: N Road Tolls*



missmollie said:


> I didn't realise what a can of worms I was opening when I posted this. I was only letting people know that the RN's should be a bit clearer of HGV's with this new system.


No problem missmollie, it was good that you did and quite interesting getting to the bottom of it, or thereabouts.
Please continue, if you have any other snippets.


----------



## nicholsong

Barry

Welcome back.

Lay your jet-lagged head on the pillow and let Mrs D stroke it - after your hard week in the Sun  

We can wait till tomorrow for your wise words - and a full tenerife report  :lol: 

Geoff


----------



## bulawayolass

Geoff to clarify l liked the Read the full Tenerife report.. not interested on where the old git sticks his head and l doubt Mrs D will stroke it he had the holiday she needs to be loved and relaxed.

:lol:


----------



## GEMMY

:lol: :lol: :lol: Did the cougar join him :lol: :lol: :lol: 

tony


----------



## GEMMY

We seem to be drifting of the N roads into fields :? 

tony


----------



## Jean-Luc

Grath said:


> Just been skimming through the links and it looks like teemyob might just have it right and that it is purely for goods carrying vehicles.
> The only thing I think of is that heavier M/Hs are registered as Heavy Goods, although private. (PHG)
> Think Lucky


The PHGV PLGV issue has been covered in another thread.

Motor Caravans are classed as PHGV and PLGV only for the convenience of collecting Road Tax by the DVLA. Unlike some countries the UK does not have a specific category of 'motor caravan' in its schedule of motor tax rates and it has chosen for its own reasons not to apply private car rates to them.

The principal thing to remember is that motor caravans of any size/weight are an EU Category M vehicle, a vehicles with at least four wheels designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers. 
It is therefore a passenger vehicle not a goods vehicle.


----------



## peedee

*Re: N Road Tolls*



missmollie said:


> I didn't realise what a can of worms I was opening when I posted this. I was only letting people know that the RN's should be a bit clearer of HGV's with this new system.


Don't feel bad about it, its a very good discussion point and it is always best to be clear as to what implications such moves have for motorhome owners.
peedee


----------



## barryd

What happens in Tenerife......!

Anyway. Back on topic

I have posted a thread on the French forum this morning. They sometimes can be quite helpful and Im pretty sure they will know. I couldnt find an existing topic but hopefully they will send me a link or clarify what the score is.

its here. http://forum.campingcar-infos.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=66981

I basically said this.

_"Good Morning

I hope that you camping car experts from France can clarify a question that has arisen on our United Kingdom camping car forum here http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-135634-days0-orderasc-0.html

It would seem that soon (July 2013) in France the government intend to start charging tolls for certain vehicles over 3500KG on some major Roads in France.
It would appear that this is just for commercial vehicles and would not apply to camping cars but I wondered if you good people had any further information or if you could clarify that this is the case for our members in the United Kingdom.

We currently believe that this new law will not apply to camping cars but your advice would be very much appreciated.

Sorry if this has already been discussed on the forum but I could not find it. Perhaps there is a link?

Sorry about my terrible French!

Thank you in advance.
Barry"_

At least I hope thats what I said and havent invited them to war or something! 8O

Will see what they say!


----------



## Zebedee

*Re: N Road Tolls*



missmollie said:


> I didn't realise what a can of worms I was opening when I posted this. I was only letting people know that the RN's should be a bit clearer of HGV's with this new system.


Don't be daft Miss M. 

As others have said it's an interesting topic, particularly for MHF members since nothing seems to be known for certain. They like nothing more than a good speculate (_should that be "pontificate"? _ :lol: ) and if there are any spats arising, you certainly didn't cause them.

We are all suffering from cabin fever, and MHF is an enjoyable diversion - and at least it's a lively forum. I belong to another one (_a classic car forum_) which is excellent in its way - but often as boring as hell, since there are usually only half a dozen posts per day and rarely anything other than technical chat.

Don't let it put you off posting - in fact just the opposite. Keep 'em coming! :wink:

Dave


----------



## Zebedee

barryd said:


> At least I hope thats what I said and havent invited them to war or something! 8O Will see what they say!


Well done Barry. :wink:

I wouldn't worry too much unless the reply begins with, "'Allo sailor". Then you might find yourself in a spot of bother. 8O

Dave :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## barryd

I think we are ok.

Our French motorhome friends provided this link

http://www.ffcc.fr/actualites/277/0/eco-taxe-poids-lourds-et-camping-cars.aspx

IT basically translates to this and was covered a while ago.

A minister has stated it wont effect motorhomes in the heavyweight category which I assume means over 3500KG. 

21/02/2011 - Eco-tax trucks and motorhomes

The Grenelle provided for the establishment of an eco trucks in 2010. During discussions on the bill Grenelle 1, parliamentarians have pushed that date to early 2011. The government has again postponed the project at the end of 2012, due to technical problems.

To our knowledge, this eco-tax will involve the carriage of goods vehicles only. Vehicles transporting persons or transit of people do not seem subject to any such tax.

*As National Federation recognized public utility responsible for representing officially 300,000 users motorhomes, some of which are registered in the heavyweight category, the FFCC wrote to Madam Minister Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet to that she confirms that they will not be affected by this eco-tax.*

We will not fail to bring you this confirmation receipt!

I think its a good thread and its always best to bring these things up. It makes interesting debate and once its been 100% ratified that it isnt going to effect is it will be a good place to point people to each time it is raised by new threads or users as it will inevitably be.


----------



## nicholsong

Jean-Luc said:


> Grath said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just been skimming through the links and it looks like teemyob might just have it right and that it is purely for goods carrying vehicles.
> The only thing I think of is that heavier M/Hs are registered as Heavy Goods, although private. (PHG)
> Think Lucky
> 
> 
> 
> The PHGV PLGV issue has been covered in another thread.
> 
> Motor Caravans are classed as PHGV and PLGV only for the convenience of collecting Road Tax by the DVLA. Unlike some countries the UK does not have a specific category of 'motor caravan' in its schedule of motor tax rates and it has chosen for its own reasons not to apply private car rates to them.
> 
> The principal thing to remember is that motor caravans of any size/weight are an EU Category M vehicle, a vehicles with at least four wheels designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers.
> It is therefore a passenger vehicle not a goods vehicle.
Click to expand...

Jean-Luc

All you say above is correct.

I think some of the confusion for some UK owners of UK vehicles is that the V5C is not clear, for example my V5 (issued originally on 11.04.2003, re-issued 16.08.2009)has the following under the internationally-recognised paras:-

D.3 Body type 'MOTOR CARAVAN'

[X] Taxation class 'PRIVATE GOODS'

[y] Revenue weight '3850 KG GROSS'

J. Vehicle Category [Blank]

It is quite correct that a Motor Caravan is an EU Category M vehicle. Should the V5C show that, and if so under paras. D.3 or J? Or maybe the EU classifications are not internationally recognised, by whatever body formulated the V5C, or equivalent, formula (who did?) ?

Would a policeman in France or elsewhere, expect to see Category 'M' shown and could its absence lead to problems?

I have only just noticed that paras. [X] and [Y] (as well as [B.1] 'Date of first registration in the UK' ) are the only ones in square brackets. I presume this, as Jean-Luc pointed out, is for the convenience of the UK government and that these paragraphs have no international recognition.

If I am correct in my last paragraph that [Y] is for UK use only and since para F.1 'Max permissible mass (exc m/c)' and para G 'Mass in service' are both blank, on my V5C, then internationally I have no weight declared on my V5C.

Am I right? And if all above is correct, what are the consequences where weight and/or vehicle category is an issue, since neither appear on the V5C?

I shall be interested to know definitive answers.

Geoff


----------



## nicholsong

barryd said:


> I think we are ok.
> 
> Our French motorhome friends provided this link
> 
> http://www.ffcc.fr/actualites/277/0/eco-taxe-poids-lourds-et-camping-cars.aspx
> 
> IT basically translates to this and was covered a while ago.
> 
> A minister has stated it wont effect motorhomes in the heavyweight category which I assume means over 3500KG.
> 
> 21/02/2011 - Eco-tax trucks and motorhomes
> 
> The Grenelle provided for the establishment of an eco trucks in 2010. During discussions on the bill Grenelle 1, parliamentarians have pushed that date to early 2011. The government has again postponed the project at the end of 2012, due to technical problems.
> 
> To our knowledge, this eco-tax will involve the carriage of goods vehicles only. Vehicles transporting persons or transit of people do not seem subject to any such tax.
> 
> *As National Federation recognized public utility responsible for representing officially 300,000 users motorhomes, some of which are registered in the heavyweight category, the FFCC wrote to Madam Minister Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet to that she confirms that they will not be affected by this eco-tax.*
> 
> We will not fail to bring you this confirmation receipt!
> 
> I think its a good thread and its always best to bring these things up. It makes interesting debate and once its been 100% ratified that it isnt going to effect is it will be a good place to point people to each time it is raised by new threads or users as it will inevitably be.


Barry

We appreciate your efforts.

The ffcc info about waiting a response from Madam Minister was posted on their website in Dec 2011, as linked somewhere above - I know you were 'swanning' in Tenerife, but see what you miss :wink:

I thought maybe FFCC have a reply but have not posted - let's see.

Geoff


----------



## barryd

nicholsong said:


> barryd said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think we are ok.
> 
> Our French motorhome friends provided this link
> 
> http://www.ffcc.fr/actualites/277/0/eco-taxe-poids-lourds-et-camping-cars.aspx
> 
> IT basically translates to this and was covered a while ago.
> 
> A minister has stated it wont effect motorhomes in the heavyweight category which I assume means over 3500KG.
> 
> 21/02/2011 - Eco-tax trucks and motorhomes
> 
> The Grenelle provided for the establishment of an eco trucks in 2010. During discussions on the bill Grenelle 1, parliamentarians have pushed that date to early 2011. The government has again postponed the project at the end of 2012, due to technical problems.
> 
> To our knowledge, this eco-tax will involve the carriage of goods vehicles only. Vehicles transporting persons or transit of people do not seem subject to any such tax.
> 
> *As National Federation recognized public utility responsible for representing officially 300,000 users motorhomes, some of which are registered in the heavyweight category, the FFCC wrote to Madam Minister Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet to that she confirms that they will not be affected by this eco-tax.*
> 
> We will not fail to bring you this confirmation receipt!
> 
> I think its a good thread and its always best to bring these things up. It makes interesting debate and once its been 100% ratified that it isnt going to effect is it will be a good place to point people to each time it is raised by new threads or users as it will inevitably be.
> 
> 
> 
> Barry
> 
> We appreciate your efforts.
> 
> The ffcc info about waiting a response from Madam Minister was posted on their website in Dec 2011, as linked somewhere above - I know you were 'swanning' in Tenerife, but see what you miss :wink:
> 
> I thought maybe FFCC have a reply but have not posted - let's see.
> 
> Geoff
Click to expand...

Oh I must have misinterpreted it. I took it from that link that they had confirmed that we were excempt. Must still be Jet Lag!

It still looks to me that we will all be exempt. Not much further response on the CC Infos thread so I guess they either are not worried or don't care. I cant believe its the later as they would have driven their motorhomes en masse down the Champs-Élysées by now and dumped the Thetfords on the Arc de Triomphe in protest if it was going to affect them!


----------



## rod_vw

So does a camping car with a 'Toad' on a trailer raising the train weight to over 3500Kg become a goods vehicle liable for tolls?

Sorry I'll go back in my shell now!

Rod


----------



## bognormike

rod_vw said:


> So does a camping car with a 'Toad' on a trailer raising the train weight to over 3500Kg become a goods vehicle liable for tolls?
> 
> Sorry I'll go back in my shell now!
> 
> Rod


Rod , have you been reading all of this thread? :roll: Goods vehicles are vehicles carrying goods!

not cars, coaches, buses, cars towing caravans, motorhomes, motorhomes towing cars, motorbikes, bikes, horses, pedestrians, or any other class of vehicle :!:


----------



## rod_vw

bognormike said:


> rod_vw said:
> 
> 
> 
> So does a camping car with a 'Toad' on a trailer raising the train weight to over 3500Kg become a goods vehicle liable for tolls?
> 
> Sorry I'll go back in my shell now!
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> 
> Rod , have you been reading all of this thread? :roll: Goods vehicles are vehicles carrying goods!
> 
> not cars, coaches, buses, cars towing caravans, motorhomes, motorhomes towing cars, motorbikes, bikes, horses, pedestrians, or any other class of vehicle :!:
Click to expand...

I certainly have, and a 'car' on a trailer may or may NOT belong to the tow vehicle owner so can quite easily be construed as goods in transit. I think of someone collecting a car of a friend that has broken down, a vehicle that is being taken to a motor show or competition or one that has been sold and is being delivered etc. etc. You may well have seen many rigs like that on the ferries or port car parks.

The viewing 'enforcer' cannot tell if you are transporting personal items or goods in transit so toll or no toll?

Opens a whole new can of worms does it not?

Rod


----------



## nicholsong

bognormike said:


> rod_vw said:
> 
> 
> 
> So does a camping car with a 'Toad' on a trailer raising the train weight to over 3500Kg become a goods vehicle liable for tolls?
> 
> Sorry I'll go back in my shell now!
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> 
> Rod , have you been reading all of this thread? :roll: Goods vehicles are vehicles carrying goods!
> 
> not cars, coaches, buses, cars towing caravans, motorhomes, motorhomes towing cars, motorbikes, bikes, horses, pedestrians, or any other class of vehicle :!:
Click to expand...

Mike

On the 'empirical' evidence that has been produced and on the balance of probabilities, you are probably correct.

However, so far, nobody can produce a piece of legislation which I can wave in front of the 'authorities' to prove you correct. ( See my earlier response to Jean-Luc's post re my inability to prove from my V5C that my vehicle is EU Category 'M')

I want to see the law as written, not what a policeman says it is [in French, Slovakian etc.). I consider it a right under the Rule of Law to be able to access legislation, otherwise we are in a Kafkaesque scenario ( - bit like EC Commission Directives really)

When we pass from country to country in the EU it is difficult to know which Directive has been passed into the law of the Nation State, and when it will be effective.

I hope a brighter spark, maybe some of our France resident colleagues, with better French than I, can help.

Geoff


----------



## barryd

bognormike said:


> rod_vw said:
> 
> 
> 
> So does a camping car with a 'Toad' on a trailer raising the train weight to over 3500Kg become a goods vehicle liable for tolls?
> 
> Sorry I'll go back in my shell now!
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> 
> Rod , have you been reading all of this thread? :roll: Goods vehicles are vehicles carrying goods!
> 
> not cars, coaches, buses, cars towing caravans, motorhomes, motorhomes towing cars, motorbikes, bikes, horses, pedestrians, or any other class of vehicle :!:
Click to expand...

So if its goods vehicles carrying goods then all you lot coming back from Spain with 10000 **** and a garage full of cheap booze to sell at your local rally had better watch it. You not only need to worry about being busted at the border you will have to cough up as a commercial vehicle all the way home! :lol:

Sorry. Just a joke. Niether myself or anyone else in the Hank the Tank team condone the smuggling of booty back from Spain. Its wrong if you get caught they WILL send you to the Bastile. :wink:


----------



## cronkle

Does this help?

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affic...&dateTexte=&oldAction=rechJO&categorieLien=id

Google translate also helps


----------



## Jean-Luc

nicholsong said:


> bognormike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rod_vw said:
> 
> 
> 
> So does a camping car with a 'Toad' on a trailer raising the train weight to over 3500Kg become a goods vehicle liable for tolls?
> 
> Sorry I'll go back in my shell now!
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> 
> Rod , have you been reading all of this thread? :roll: Goods vehicles are vehicles carrying goods!
> 
> not cars, coaches, buses, cars towing caravans, motorhomes, motorhomes towing cars, motorbikes, bikes, horses, pedestrians, or any other class of vehicle :!:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Mike
> 
> On the 'empirical' evidence that has been produced and on the balance of probabilities, you are probably correct.
> 
> However, so far, nobody can produce a piece of legislation which I can wave in front of the 'authorities' to prove you correct. ( See my earlier response to Jean-Luc's post re my inability to prove from my V5C that my vehicle is EU Category 'M')
> 
> I want to see the law as written, not what a policeman says it is [in French, Slovakian etc.). I consider it a right under the Rule of Law to be able to access legislation, otherwise we are in a Kafkaesque scenario ( - bit like EC Commission Directives really)
> 
> When we pass from country to country in the EU it is difficult to know which Directive has been passed into the law of the Nation State, and when it will be effective.
> 
> I hope a brighter spark, maybe some of our France resident colleagues, with better French than I, can help.
> 
> Geoff
Click to expand...

THIS is the UK legislation adopting Directive 2007/46/EC which contains the following

DEFINITION OF TYPE OF BODYWORK

SA Motor caravans (See Annex II A item 5.1)

Annex II A item 5.1 says

'Motor Caravan' means a special purpose M category vehicle constructed to include living accommodation which contains at least the following equipment: 
- seats and table, 
- sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats, 
- cooking facilities, and 
- storage facilities. 
This equipment shall be rigidly fixed to the living compartment; however, the table may be designed to be easily removable.

The two links contain all that is required, for the waving under the noses of the said authorities, to proof that the EU Directive has been adopted into UK law.

And yes, field J on the vehicle registration document has the standardised meaning across all EU member states of EU Vehicle Category, which should be filled in with the code M, see above.


----------



## nicholsong

Jean-Luc

Thanks for the references.

Sorry to delve further but I am starting to see cracks - not in your knowledge, but in the whole registration structure and documentation and therefore its relevance to road pricing.

Your references only apply to 'Type Approval' and in the UK were only effective from 2009.

They might, or might not, help in confusing a policeman but if one were ever to end up in Court they would be little use for an owner of a vehicle constructed prior to the relevant dates.

You say

"And yes, field J on the vehicle registration document has the standardised meaning across all EU member states of EU Vehicle Category, which should be filled in with the code M, see above."

Should this apply retrospectively? i.e should those of us with no entry apply for a revised V5C?

Is the V5C format only an EU approved format or is it internationally accepted? Norway, Switzerland, Morocco?

Despite your help a lot of my questions still stand.

I do not expect you to answer all of them, but thanks for your help.

Geoff


----------



## rod_vw

Maybe reading these threads / articles helps to clear up what is a goods vehicle and what is not..

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-135786-days0-orderasc-0.html

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-mot.shtml

Who knows what attitude the French take to our UK definitions but the above seems to be what the department of transport intend.

Rod


----------

