# Retro Fitting Belted Seats To Rear Of Autotrail Cheyenne



## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

Hi

I have previously browsed this thread

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-53693-days0-orderasc-30.html

but not found the answer I was looking for.

I have an Autotrail Cheyenne 2007 build with 2 designated travel seats (driver and passenger). It has opposing side facing seats in the back and Autotrail do offer an option to fit belted travel seats but only when they're building it. This was their somewhat confusing reply to my email asking if they can retrofit the travel seat option

_____________________________________

Hello

I am afraid the designated seating options are only available on new build and it is not possible to retrofit this option, however, it would be possible to retrofit the actual seat option but you would have to approach another company for the fitting of the seat belts, there is a company called Towtal who offer to fit belts but they may only be lap belts.

The cost of fitting the seat option would be in the region of £1200+vat.

Best regards

Colin
__________________________________________

So my question is: Can I fit rear belted seats myself and if so how do I go about legally increasing the number of seats on the logbook?

I am a (very) competant engineer and I have some belted and approved seats from a minibus which will fit nicely. I'll take them out and put it back to standard when I sell it on. I know how to secure them to the chassis to a standard far in excess of the front seats (I have built a few rally cars in my time and we know how to make 'em strong). However I have no idea how the legislation works or VOSA's attitude to increasing the seating capacity. Can I just send off the logbook with a change from 2 seats to 4? Or would I need an engineer's report? I know motorhomes are not currently type approved so there should be no problem with changing from the standard vehicle apart from informing the insurers.

Unfortunately the vehicle, whilst built in early 2007, was actually registered on the 7th November 2007 so I've just missed the important date of 20th October 2007 before which much of this legislation did not apply.

I'm trying my best to do the right thing but, as is often the case with legislation, the powers that be are not making my life very easy! I can find no easy explanation of what I need to do on any of the sites I've searched apart from 'don't touch it' which is not really very useful.

Any information gladly received.

Regards, Mark


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## Carl_n_Flo (May 10, 2005)

Very confusing!!!!

We too have a 696G like yours, but can no way see how to fit belted seats without ripping out the fitted side facing seats.

Is this what you propose to do?

If Autotrail retro-fitted the foward facing seats, it would at least keep the interior 'standard'. I guess they cannot retro-fit their belt system because it would mean cutting the floor to get the steel support system fitted, and wealding/bolting same to chassis....????

They will not retro-fit lap belts as they would not want to be held liable for any injuries..

My suggestion (for what it is worth) would be to talk with a tech person (or the design office) at Autotrail and try to obtain drawings of their forward facing seat system - that way you could fabricate your own belt system to suit BEFORE they fit their seats....

good luck
Carl


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

Hi Carl

I would take out the side facing seat on the driver's side. This is very easy as it just unscrews and leaves a big space. I'd have to move a couple of wires for the fridge but all very easy.

I was going to put a cage under the floor attached to the chassis members by high-tensile bolts (8,8 spec) which I use for my microlight. This is an easy fabrication and fitment as I've already checked under the chassis floor. You can then bolt the mini-bus seats straight to this support cage through the floor as they are completely self-contained with all the seat belts etc. bolted to the frame on which they are supported. This bolts down via four bolts.

The work is easy and I'd be happy for anyone to sit in the result as it would be much stronger than the existing front seats. It's the legal side of it that is the problem. I don't want to spend a day installing seats only to find our great friends the 'bureau-rats' have constructed such a labrinthine and Kafkaesque system to make it legal that it's not worth bothering with.

In reality if I can't find out how to do it I'll probably just put them in and hope no eagle-eyed law enforcement officers note the change and that I don't have an accident involving injury. This would be a shame as I'd like to comply with the law fully as I broadly think this is one of the ones which is actually useful but if the legal people have made it next to impossible I'll just have to get on with it. At any rate it will be a lot better than just carrying the people in the back with nothing holding them onto the side facing seats...

Let's hope somebody knows how I can do it...

Cheers, Mark


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## Steamdrivenandy (Jun 18, 2007)

I'm sure this sort of thing has been gone into loads of times on MHF.

Legally speaking you're right that under the current law you cannot carry anyone in your van unless they have a designated seat with belt. This designation is on your logbook and in the manufacturers blurb and you would invaldate your insurance if you didn't comply.

The rules on older van are less stringent.

The next thing to tackle is that inward facing seats are a no-no for travel, whether belted or not. You will not get any approval from anybody for such seats as they're considered to be more dangerous due to the unsupported sideways forces suffered in most accidents. 

So if you want to add travelling capacity to the van your seats have to face front or rear.

As suggested a personal word with Autotrail to see what they suggest if you're going for the front/rear facing option. They certainly won't help at all with anything else. 

SDA


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## LondonMotorhomeHire (Jan 20, 2008)

Mark, 

I'm not as technical as you clearly are but I have gone through a retro-fit of side-facing belts with an absolute speciallist company so I thought I'd share one or two thoughts.

Firstly, I used 'Quick-fit' who are based in North London, Kingsbury/Stanmore region. Over a decade of experience!!

To say that inward-facing, or I presume you mean side-facing seats are a no-no and noone would approve them is, well, not entirely correct.
We need to leave aside the whole debate over 'would you let someone sit in a side-facing seat, blah blah blah, as you are focussing on the technical and lagal aspect, not the principle.

It is perfectly legal, so long as the installation conforms to certifiable safety standards, ie. strength/resistance testing etc. My installer insists that once fitted, to their standard, they certify in accordance with the DOT legislation. This is where you may or may not have a problem as YOU cannot certify your own work or respond to a claim that your engineering cannot withstand such and such impact/resistance force etc. Tricky, perhaps.

Secondly, my installation was made much simpler as there is a bulk-head (a nice one with pretty wood and padding etc) beside where the side-facing person would sit. Imagine someone sitting behind the driver, side facing, with a bulkhead beside their right arm jutting out about 16". This, the engineers stated, would provide essential protection from forward force on impact.

So, all the above possibly of no use, but thought I'd share with you.


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## Steamdrivenandy (Jun 18, 2007)

Well this is the way that Autotrail (who just happen to be the cconverter's of Mark's van) see the technical and legal aspect http://www.auto-trail.co.uk/page_motorhome_seat-belt-information.htm

If fitting belts to sideways seats is illegal as they say (admittedly maybe only illegal on new conversions) then it makes no sense to try and fit them to older vans, even if it doesn't break the law. If something is inherently unsafe, surely it doesn't make it safe just because it's not illegal on your particular van because it's a little older? As I understand it the ban was put in place because deceleration injuries are much worse in cases where side facing seats are fitted. Put simply the human body copes much better in a forward/rearward facing seat.

Perhaps the other port of call before any angle grinding takes place is to discuss it with your insurance company, after all if they won't allow it in any shape whatsoever then there is no point in even considering it. On the other hand they may have constructive suggestions to make about what they'll accept.

There's an irony here. If you have an older van with sideways facing seats then people can travel quite legally in them without any restraint. You can probably add belts to those seats and don't need to tell anyone because the number of seats doesn't feature on any records. In newer vans where there are legally designated seats any changes have to gain approval, not least from your insurance company. So it's OK if someone is maimed in an older van but not in a newer one. Doh!

SDA


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

With reference to the last two replies my van was first registerd on the 7th November 2007, after the 'watershed' date of 20th October 2007 before which is was legal to allow passengers to travel in sideways facing seats. In essence it was built to the 'old' standards but registered just after the 'new' ones came into force. For this reason I cannot fit sideways facing seatbelts but if the van had cleared the paperwork 2 weeks earlier I could have done. That's the way bureaucracy works sometimes.

So all I can do to remain on the right side of the law (and I know my character well enough to say that if I can't I'll just go ahead and do it anyway...) I need to retro-fit some designated seats. I'm happy and able to pay someone to do it but the rather confusing reply from Autotrail says that the "designated seating options are only available on new build and it is not possible to retrofit this option, however, it would be possible to retrofit the actual seat option but you would have to approach another company for the fitting of the seat belts".

I can't really tell what this means. Does it mean they can fit the seats but don't want to take the respnsibility of putting the belts in or that they are difficult due to anchoring points etc. or that they don't have approval to retro-fit? Or does it mean they can fit them but they won't be legal to use as it's not possible to change the number of the seats on the logbook? In which case why not do it myself to a better standard if it's not going to be legal anyway? Anyone's guess from that reply. I'll have to ring them, I guess as the system they use to reply to emails does not allow me to ask further points to clarify what they've answered.

Any other personal experience or companies I might be able to approach gratefully received...

Cheers, Mark


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## Steamdrivenandy (Jun 18, 2007)

As you say it's a confusing response.

But first of all I'd talk to your insurance company because if they won't agree any change then you'll have wasted all the effort.

Failing that, swap the van for one with the seats you need, the cost may not be much more than getting the current one sorted to the law's satisfaction if that's possible.

Personally I wouldn't want to put friends and family at risk by using something that research has shown is relatively dangerous even if I had an older van where it was still legal. You will note that over the years very few, if any converters have ever fitted safety belts to side facing seats as standard on what is the most popular lounge layout in the UK. Surely that in itself has to make you think?

SDA


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## Carl_n_Flo (May 10, 2005)

How the world and its outlook moves on 8O 

Back in the '70's we, as a family, were quite happy to potter around Europe every year in a motorhome with seatbelts fitted to only the cab seats.......

no airbags
no pre- tensioning belts
no self retracting belts - only fixed ones

me, my brother and sister all sat in the back - me on the nearside dinette, my brother on the offside dinette and my sister (who was 4 years old in 1973) on a 'perch' cushion behind me, looking out of the side window..........................

for some reason, the safety of us kids was never considered!!!!! Not that we thought our parents didnt love us, just that these issues didnt seem to come into the conciencness :? :? 

Whether by luck - or divine intervention - our safety was never put to the test.....................

I guess the modern way of life is called progress...............

stop the world - i want to get off....

carl


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Carl_n_Flo said:


> stop the world - i want to get off....
> carl


You can't - until you've unbuckled your seatbelt. 8O :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dave


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## Carl_n_Flo (May 10, 2005)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Steamdrivenandy (Jun 18, 2007)

Reminds me of my second car.

A LHD 1953 Fiat 500C

It had a watercooled OHV motor right up front with a radiator behind over the gearbox and behind that was the petrol tank, half of which was visible under the dashboard inside the car as it was fitted betwwen engine bay and interior. Luckily I never had a collision in it, but if I'd had a head on one the motor would've been driven through the rad. and into the fuel tank and on into the passenger compartment. In other word a potential fire bomb.

Maybe that's why Fiat opted for a rear engine on the iconic 500D!!!

But I never thought anything of it until years later. It was an acceptable way to make cars at the time.

However that doesn't mean that we shouldn't take full advantage of advances in safety construction when they've been identified and become available does it?

SDA


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## Carl_n_Flo (May 10, 2005)

tug66 said:


> Mark,
> Firstly, I used 'Quick-fit' who are based in North London, Kingsbury/Stanmore region. Over a decade of experience!!


Can you please provide the contact details for this company Tug?
would be interested to speak to them..........
regards
carl


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Setting aside all thoughts of legalities, let's look at the comfort factor.

Our Mazda Bongo had a reversed rear bench seat.
Very comfy to sit in, fitted with lap belts, very safe as most crashes are frontal impact.

Most passengers however did not feel very comfy rear-facing when travelling, especially on wiggly roads.
There were choruses of "slow down!"
Not exactly the Vomit Comet, but close.

A journey that remains seared in my mind several years ago was on a LWB LandRover sitting in rear side-facing seats.
Now that definitely was the Vomit Comet, even though I am not generally travel sick.

Just something to think about.


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## LondonMotorhomeHire (Jan 20, 2008)

Here ya go Carl,

Quickfit Safety Belt Service
Inertia House
Lowther Road
Stanmore
Middlesex
HA7 1EP

Tel:
Fax:
Email:+44 (0) 208 206 0101
+44 (0) 208 206 0599
[email protected]ull-screen

Inertia House
Lowther Road
Stanmore
Middlesex
HA7 1EP
Tel: +44 (0) 208 206 0101
Fax: +44 (0) 208 206 0599 
Map data ©2009 Tele Atlas - Terms of UseMapSatelliteHybrid


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## Pugwash (Jun 12, 2005)

*Retro fitting seatbelts*

Hi Mark,

I import European motorhomes into New Zealand and have to put them through the compliance procedure to get them on the road. This includes certification of seatbelts and their mountings, and seat base strength. New Zealand accepts European standards so the exercise is usually a question of paperwork from my point of view. There are really two aspects to what you're trying to do. One is the engineering, the other is proving the engineering meets the appropriate standard. My understanding of Autotrail's reply is that they can retrofit the seat base and this will comply. They'll have type approval for their production seat base and will be able to supply the documentation to prove it complies with European standards. The belts themselves will need to be fitted to a frame which includes a post rising vertically to about shoulder level for the shoulder strap pivot to be fixed to. I'm not familiar with Autotrail in particular, but other makes I deal with: Swift, Burstner, Hymer, etc all use a standard frame built by AL-KO. (The same people who build chassis). These frames, which bolt through the floor into the chassis rail, come with the European Standard number displayed on a permanent sticker attached to them. Your best bet is to approach AL-KO UK in Warwickshire and see if you can buy one. If the NZ and UK systems are similar (and the NZ one is modelled on the UK one so they should be) you'll still have to have a certified engineer sign it all off. Once that is done and the number of travelling seats is changed on the vehicle's documentation, your insurance company has no grounds for objection as it can be proven that it all meets the correct standards.

With all the rules and regualtions in place these days to protect us against ourselves the paperwork has got bigger then the engineering, but there's no way round it. As someone suggested, it may be cheaper to change the vehicle. It would certainly be a lot less trouble!

By the way, not only is it dangerous to travel on a sideways seat with or without a seat belt (and I could tell you a very sad story that illustrates this point) but within the EC jurisdiction it is now illegal to fit lapstraps to sideways facing seats.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Paul.
Castle European Ltd. NZ.


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## macone48 (Mar 14, 2006)

Pugwash; 
Snippity........ By the way, not only is it dangerous to travel on a sideways seat with or without a seat belt (and I could tell you a very sad story that illustrates this point) but within the EC jurisdiction it is now illegal to fit lapstraps to sideways facing seats........... Snip.

So it seems that it's one law for us motorists and another for our troops then........???????

Doesn't bear thinking about if : 450 knots it all stops !!!

Trev


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## Pugwash (Jun 12, 2005)

*Sideways lapstraps*

Trev,

They're different. They've been specially trained!

Pugwash.


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## Steamdrivenandy (Jun 18, 2007)

If that stopped suddenly then it wouldn't matter which way they were facing 8O 

SDA


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