# Question about V5C after uprating



## Bill_OR

Finally got the V5C back from DVLA after uprating my Apache to 3850 Kg.
The replacement V5C shows the Revenue weight at 3850 but further down the form there is an entry "Max. permissible mass (exc m/c)" with 3650.
This doesn't look right to me. Please would someone else who has been through the process check these fields on their V5C for me?

Thanks,
Bill
P.S. I've emailed SVTech to ask their advice but not heard back from them yet.


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## listerdiesel

Max. permissible mass (exc m/c)

Means excluding motor cars, so should be the higher weight 0f 3850 as far as I can see..

Peter


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## safariboy

I have just had the same problem. I rang up their help line and they agreed that it was a mistake. You need to write them a note and send the book back to get it changed. He told me that if the police interrogated them they would get the correct weight, and of course it shows it on the plate. He also said that there was no urgency and seemed rather relaxed about the problem.
If you go abroad it seemed to me to be a good idea to get it sorted out first though I have never shown anyone the V5.

I think that there are three things that might change:
Tax weight
Tax class
MTPM


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## mgdavid

MPM (max permissible mass) is what used to be known as GTW (gross train weight) and includes any trailer. The V5 for my new 3850kg MH shows a MPM of 5750.
And further down the page, Permissible max towable trailer 1900kg which all adds up correctly.


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## Bill_OR

Just to complete the DVLA story about this uprate, I wrote to them as was suggested by Safariboy and 6 weeks later received a corrected V5C with the MPM set to 3850.
Bill


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## mgdavid

Hope you or any subsequent owner never want to tow!


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## Jean-Luc

If it is the figure at (F.1) Permissible Mass (GVW) it's important that that figure is correct as its the figure which determines the licence required (>3.500kg = C1) and it is a Europe wide standard field so all the Plods understand it. 
The figure also has a bearing on toll rates in countries like Switzerland and Austria to name two.
It's the Vehicle Registration Certificate which must be produced when abroad when registering for tolls etc. I don't see a desk jockey at a public hatch leaving his/her desk to check what's on the plate under the bonnet. 

When we were entering Switzerland a few years ago who had to take our Vehicle Registration Certificate to 'the office' to get our toll classification sorted.


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## rayc

Jean-Luc said:


> If it is the figure at (F.1) Permissible Mass (GVW) it's important that that figure is correct as its the figure which determines the licence required (>3.500kg = C1) and it is a Europe wide standard field so all the Plods understand it.


You and mgdavid have a different understanding of the relevance of F1 Permissible Mass. You appear to think it is GVW whilst he thinks it is GTW. If his understanding is correct then your assumption about it being used for the licence requirement is also incorrect.
My 2013 registered MH has it blank.


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## mgdavid

rayc said:


> You and mgdavid have a different understanding of the relevance of F1 Permissible Mass. You appear to think it is GVW whilst he thinks it is GTW. If his understanding is correct then your assumption about it being used for the licence requirement is also incorrect.
> My 2013 registered MH has it blank.


I'm just going by what's on my COC from the manufacturer plus the guidance notes for the V55/4.
I copied the GVW (COC 16.1) as the V55/4 Revenue weight (3850)
I copied the GTW (COC 16.4) as the V55/4 MPM (5750)
I copied the max braked trailer weight (COC 18.3) as the V55/4 TPMTM of the Trailer (1900)
and DVLA checked and verified it all and issued the V5C with these figures. They may get slagged off a lot - whether justified or not I have no way of knowing - but I'm confident they know more about it than I do, as they do it all the time and I've done it once.


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## Jean-Luc

rayc said:


> You and mgdavid have a different understanding of the relevance of F1 Permissible Mass. You appear to think it is GVW whilst he thinks it is GTW. If his understanding is correct then your assumption about it being used for the licence requirement is also incorrect.
> My 2013 registered MH has it blank.


GTW (Gross Train Weight) is the maximum permissible mass (weight) of the vehicle and a trailer (train)

The GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight), AKA the MTPLM (Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass) AKA the Permissible Mass AKA the Maximum Laden Weight is the maximum permissible mass (weight) of the vehicle itself. It is this figure which determines the category of licence required to drive the vehicle and what toll regime applies to it in places where the GVW determines the toll rate.
It is the weight entered at (F.1) which is the point of reference in relation to the above.

On the UK V5 (Certificate of Registration) the Revenue Weight is the same as the GVW, but Revenue Weight is a 'local' (UK) field associated with the positioning of the vehicle within the UK Road Tax pricing structure and as such would be of no interest or concern to foreign authorities neither would it have any legal standing in the event of them having an interest in a vehicles documents.


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## mgdavid

Jean-Luc said:


> GTW (Gross Train Weight) is the maximum permissible mass (weight) of the vehicle and a trailer (train)
> 
> The GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight), AKA the MTPLM (Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass) AKA the Permissible Mass AKA the Maximum Laden Weight is the maximum permissible mass (weight) of the vehicle itself. It is this figure which determines the category of licence required to drive the vehicle and what toll regime applies to it in places where the GVW determines the toll rate.
> It is the weight entered at (F.1) which is the point of reference in relation to the above.
> 
> On the UK V5 (Certificate of Registration) the Revenue Weight is the same as the GVW, but Revenue Weight is a 'local' (UK) field associated with the positioning of the vehicle within the UK Road Tax pricing structure and as such would be of no interest or concern to foreign authorities neither would it have any legal standing in the event of them having an interest in a vehicles documents.


Not on my V5 it isn't. As I already said in my last post, my V5 states Revenue weight (Y) 3850, MPM (F1) 5750, and braked trailer (Q1) 1900. I can't work out if you're implying DVLA did it wrong?


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## nicholsong

Jean-Luc said:


> On the UK V5 (Certificate of Registration) the Revenue Weight is the same as the GVW, but Revenue Weight is a 'local' (UK) field associated with the positioning of the vehicle within the UK Road Tax pricing structure and as such would be of no interest or concern to foreign authorities neither would it have any legal standing in the event of them having an interest in a vehicles documents.


I agree about Revenue Weight (para. [Y] on the V5C does not appear on the international registration documents of other countries.

However, when no other weights are shown on a V5C, including blank in para. F.1 Max. permissible mass (exc. m/c), it begs the question as to what foreign authorities would consider to be the authorised max. weight.

Could one be infringeing their law by driving with a document which does not conform to internatioal standards or is it the DVLA who have breached the law by issuing such a document? The latter is doubtful since the issuance was done outside the foreign jurisdiction.

I think the matter could be the subject for A.P. Herbert in "Misleading Cases":laugh:

Geoff


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## Jean-Luc

mgdavid said:


> Not on my V5 it isn't. As I already said in my last post, my V5 states Revenue weight (Y) 3850, MPM (F1) 5750, and braked trailer (Q1) 1900. I can't work out if you're implying DVLA did it wrong?


The figure at (F.1) is supposed to be the GVW / MTPLM / MLW of the vehicle.

On your V5 the Revenue Weight is the GVW as it is supposed to be so that the correct Road Tax is levied, (Y) is a local code for that purpose.

However, the figure at (F.1) is supposed to be the GVW, as required by the EU standard, the document is basically a common document with codes to enable foreign officials/police to easily understand the vehicle information and data without the need to understand the written language used.

It is therefore safe to assume that the field (F.1) is incorrect on your document and it contains the Gross Train Weight which is the GVW of the vehicle + the GVW / MTPLM of any trailer drawn by the vehicle. The combined GVW of the vehicle a plus trailer is determined by the manufacturer taking into account the performance capabilities of the engine, brakes and transmission of a vehicle.

As mentioned earlier if the document is presented to a foreign authority/police it would be their understanding that your vehicle has a GVW of 5.750 tonnes and would be treated as such with regard to driving licence, tolls and any other things where vehicle GVW is the measure used.
A Vehicle Registration Certificate is after all a Statuary Document and is supposed to be the true and correct record of a vehicles data.

If its any consolation our equivalent of your DVLA are equally capable of issuing works of fiction William Shakespeare would be proud of.


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