# Autocruise Startrail Report. A quick look and what we found!



## ingram

We recently called on a dealer to look at the accessory shop and spotted a brand new Autocruise Startrail on the sales lot.

We are not potential purchasers: we have a pre-Swift Starblazer and are happy with it.  but thought we'd have a 'quick look'. We were in there for less than ten minutes and found this:--

The overhead locker doors are in three pieces: the main panel with the bottom 2 or 3 inches being a separate piece in a darker 'veneer' and a thin 'plastichrome' strip between the two. I have previously noticed on other Autocruises, that this strip is often cut too short and / or not cut 'square'. I picked a locker at random, opened it and noticed that there was a gap between the main panel and the trim strip. The slightly rough bottom edge of the main panel was visible. Before I could investigate further there was a 'cry' from my wife who had a piece of worktop in her hand  

The Startrail has the 'L' shaped kitchen with the swing out cupboard to give extra worktop. My wife was closing this cupboard and as it seemed to need an extra push to get it to close she pushed it holding the worktop: it came off. When I investigated I found that the 'piano hinge' on the cupboard ( same as on my Starblazer ) 'bottomed out' when the cupboard still had about a one inch gap to close. I found that pushing the cupboard closed caused the panel to which the hinge was fixed to visibly flex under the strain.

Then I looked to see why the worktop had come off. I don't know if it had come off before or not. Instead of using blocks and screws into the vertical panel and worktop, at 90 degrees, they had 'skew screwed' through the vertical cupboard panels ( and the screws had burst through the panel's veneer at the top ). The screws only penetrated the worktop by about 5 or 6mm.

I found another cupboard which didn't close without force but that seemed to have adjustable hinges: they just needed to have been adjusted.

Just inside the habitation door there is a long mirror on the wall. Below the mirror is a piece of 'trim'. It appears to serve no useful purpose: just cosmetic. It is in similar two tone finish to match the overhead lockers. It appears to be the 'veneer' finish on wood, ply, chipboard or mdf. It was badly warped. It appeared to be stuck to the wall and the gluey stuff could be seen between the trim and wall where the trim had warped. I had seen similar pieces of trim on another Autocruise previously,in a similar condition.

When looking at new motorhomes, whatever the make, have a good look at how they are put together: have a look 'under the skin' so to speak.

I don't usually put identical posts on more than one forum but this report may also be seen elsewhere.

Harvey


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## Grizzly

You won't be welcome at that dealer again !

I wonder why these sort of faults are not picked up by the quality control people at the convertors ? It would save so much hassle and unpleasantness -and loss of good will- if vans were not allowed to leave the factory in that state.

G


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## Zebedee

Mrs Ingram was lucky - the whole cupboard might have fallen on her foot. 8O 8O

One of our members has a brand new Star **** (forget which model) and his cupboard did exactly that. 

I have to add however that he and his wife are very pleased overall with the van, which has a lot going for it. We (Mrs Zeb and I) love the design and would have had one if we could get it on our drive.

I think it's the same story with most, if not all vans. Some of the workforce have no real interest or pride in their work, and if the short screws are a bit closer than the longer ones which they are supposed to use, who cares so long as it holds together until it leaves the factory!! 8O 8O

I am not joking either. 8O I just re-hung all the top locker doors on our van (_different problem due to me being very tall_) and the screws in the hinges were only 5mm long . . . well, most of them!! 8O Some were the proper length for the job!! 8O

Like our friends with the Star-whotsit, we are very pleased with our van . . . but only after quite a lot of correction and modification on my part. Fortunately I'm quite handy and have a wood work-shop, but anyone who is a bit cack handed would need quite a few trips back to the dealer. :roll:

Stupid!! Spoiling the reputation of what are basically cracking good vans for the sake of a little care and attention to detail . . . or a good boot up the arse from the Quality Control Manager!! :wink: :lol:

Dave 

Addendum.
Just saw Grizzly's post. 
I think we both "_*assume*_" there is some Quality Control Grizz!! :roll: 
Difficult to check on every detail during manufacture - especially with something like uncaring workmen and the screws I mentioned, but the occasional random inspection would focus their tiny minds. 8O :roll:


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## tonyt

Grizzly said:


> ...................................I wonder why these sort of faults are not picked up by the quality control people at the convertors ?...................
> 
> G


What quality control people?

From my experience of buying a new, British built, motorhome they do very little, if any, quality control. They leave it to the dealer's PDI and the dealer doesn't do one as "it's already been checked by the manufacturer".

I worked in the motor manufacturing trade most of my life and a car plant producing shoddy goods like that would have gone out of business because the customer would have sent the cars back
Buyers of new motorhomes are far, far too tolerant and seem to make excuses FOR the manufacturer - "with so many things on it, it's bound to go wrong somewhere"

We should stop being so "understanding" and expect quality for our £20k/£30k/£4k/£50k purchase - it's not a loaf of bread!


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## Grizzly

Zebedee said:


> I think we both "_*assume*_" there is some Quality Control Grizz!! :roll:
> Difficult to check on every detail during manufacture


Dave and Tony...yes I've assumed some quality control person present in the factory though our last van purchase had many many faults that perhpas indicated there had not been a check before leaving the factory.

WHY is it difficult though Dave ?

Vans don't roll off the converyor belt like frozen chickens. There can't be so many produced per day even by the busiest factory. It would not be rocket science to have someone at the end of the line checking for the sort of faults that Harvey and his wife discovered in a brief visit to the van without checklist or - sorry if this is not so- a skilled knowledge of MH building techniques.

Perhaps the convertors who monitor this site would care to comment ?

G


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## pepandspice

Hi, 

It is for this reason that we have bought IH panel van conversions(we've had three of theirs) and our current van is a Timberland. Everything is finished off to an excellent standard, no loose trim, wires falling down, botched screw holes in woodwork, loose light fittings, ill-fitting doors etc. 

We have not been fortunate enough to buy new, (apart from our earlier Autoroller and Laikas which I mention later on) each of our vans have been preowned but they are well constructed and they do stand the test of time. 

We have looked at Autocruise and Swift panel van conversions and they do not appear to be constructed with the same care and attention as IH and Timberland. 

We have also owned in the past, an CI Autoroller, our fist van which was also well put together and two Laikas, the first one had water ingress to the overcab area which was repaired under warranty, we changed this for a low profile which was of good build quality.

As others have commented on this forum, it is all down to pride in workmanship which is lacking.

Pepandspice.


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## loughrigg

I've had my pre-Swift Autocruise (2002 vintage) for about 18 months now. Looking at some of the current models from Swift (and others), I do get the impression that, 8 years on, they will be looking much rougher round the edges than my old beast does now. The overall build quality and fittings from 2002 just seem much more robust - when I bought "Bertie" (admittedly with a fairly modest 21k on the clock) it was a struggle to find snags for the dealer to fix.

Mike


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## DTPCHEMICALS

More to the point why had the dealer not aproached these obvious problems.
First impresions from a customer count.

QC PDI is mostly left to the consumer.
I cannot recal any ISO 9001/2/3 quality assurances on the build of mh or caravans.
Even then they only certify that a process of manufacture has been followed and is no guarantee of quality.


Dave p


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## Zebedee

Grizzly said:


> It would not be rocket science to have someone at the end of the line checking for the sort of faults that Harvey and his wife discovered . . . G


Why don't the manufacturers keep on an "_old boy_" for (say) two or three mornings a week after he retires from many years on the production line. (_or old girl of course. Have to be so bloody correct these days!_ :roll: )

He (she) could then do nothing other than poke, prod and generally check the build quality and ensure that everything works as it should. It might do the retired person a big favour by supplementing the measly pension, and who would be better qualified to find the faults? :roll:

I would think it makes economic sense too, since only a few faults discovered would remove the need for subsequent warranty work . . . and that would surely save far more than the old boy's part-time salary, with ease. :?

Dunno? Makes sense to me - but what do I know!!! 8O

Dave


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## SpeedyDux

I saw a replay of a Caravan Channel episode running on Sky 216 in which they showed Part 2 of a film made during a visit to the Swift factory in about 2008 (or 2009?). My personal impression is that the production methods relied heavily on the skill of their workforce, and self-certification that the work was completed to a satisfactory standard. Being a caravan-related show there was very little film of the motorhome producion line, which was disappointing.

In the light of this thread, I am left wondering if the cost of employing more factory quality control supervisers / testers would outweigh the cost of warranty claims. 

What also stood out was that it was reported that the Swift factory was producing 12,000 touring caravans and (only!) 2,000 motorhomes each year. That suggests much bigger batches are made of each model of caravan than motorhome, and therefore you might expect the quality of Swift's caravans to be more consistent than the quality of their motorhomes. I could be wrong of course.


SD


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## geraldandannie

Zebedee said:


> Why don't the manufacturers keep on an "_old boy_" for (say) two or three mornings a week after he retires from many years on the production line. (_or old girl of course. Have to be so bloody correct these days!_ :roll: )
> You could say "retired person" Dave :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Zebedee said:
> 
> 
> 
> He (she) could then do nothing other than poke, prod and generally check the build quality. <snip> Makes sense to me - but what do I know!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Quite a lot I suspect, Dave.
> 
> I seem to remember having this conversation at least 12-18 months ago about Sw*ft, and I suggested exactly the same thing as you. And before someone (Peter at Johns Cross, usually :roll: :wink: ) comes along and says how complicated they are and how each one is hand built, blahdy-blah, look at it from the customer's point of view for a change. Sometimes, the £40k, £50k, £60k and more that people are paying for these things are the result of a lifetimes-worth of saving, hard work, pensions contributions, etc etc. Sometimes, it's the one thing they promised themselves when they retired, and probably the most expensive thing they've bought after their house. Try to imagine the devastation a buyer would feel on finding that their *HUGE* investment is a thrown-together box of bits.
> 
> No doubt the dealers would say (on being shown the shoddy finishing) "oh, it'll all be sorted during the PDI, don't worry about that, sir - would you like to borrow my pen to write the cheque?"
> 
> If these are the sort of faults you find on a quick look round, imagine the potential problems there might be on the really technical stuff.
> 
> Anyway, we've been down this road before :roll: Time to get off my soap box.
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...


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## tonyt

Just to even things out a little - the new motorhome I bought in 2006 which had unbelievable things wrong with it clearly showing that nobody, neither manufacturer nor dealer, had even taken a cursory glance at it, was an Auto-Sleepers.


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## erneboy

I reckon few if any of them have quality control. 

Someone has suggested that if they do it may be self certified and that, they think, could be a problem. My company used self certification on quality matters for many years, it works well providing that when a problem is detected is traced back to the source and changes are made to prevent the same thing happening again. 

I think virtually no quality procedures are in place. The 80/20 rule applies as far as I can tell. Just not good enough but I can't see it changing any time soon.

I would happily volunteer to do some quality checks for a manufacturer, I don't expect to be taken up on that offer and if I was I don't suppose I would be welcome back after the first day.

If their products are as good as they think they are why don't they invite a few customers along now and again to have a check round some new vans and report back. A rhetorical question, they do not want to know and rectification would cost too much. The motorhome industry, as has been stated many times before, is a cottage industry producing very poorly finished products, Alan.


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## DTPCHEMICALS

maybe if the dealers had to pay compensation for expenses incurred for returning mh for warranty work along with payment for loss of use things would improve.
But would or should that reflect in higher prices.
Either way finish and service must improve.
Dave p


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## Grizzly

Rivetters in shipyards used to be paid by the rivet sunk (if that is the right word). If however their work was not accepted _they_ had to pay for the badly sunk rivet to be extracted and re-done.

I guess some similar penalty might sharpen the mind of the person slapping in screws and slopping on glue in a motorhome.

G


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## suedew

When we collected our escape, along with all the booklets/manuals was the checklist, each item ticked and initialled by Swift employee and dealer.
Not sure if it had been left in accidentally though :wink: 
Sue


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## Zebedee

suedew said:


> . . . along with all the booklets/manuals was the checklist, each item ticked and initialled by Swift employee and dealer. Sue


Or if the checklist was done in the canteen while they had their tea and biscuits!! 8O 8O

Cynical - me? :roll:

Dave


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## suedew

Zebedee said:


> Or if the checklist was done in the canteen while they had their tea and biscuits!! 8O 8O
> 
> Cynical - me? :roll:
> 
> Dave


My thoughts too Dave

:lol: :lol:

Sue


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## DJMotorhomer

Hi

We have a brand new Startrail and there is nothing wrong with it at all, me thinks someone has an axe to grind per chance ?

Dave


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## ingram

DJBullman said:


> Hi We have a brand new Startrail and there is nothing wrong with it at all, me thinks someone has an axe to grind per chance ?
> 
> Dave


Why do you think that? I reported what I saw and what happened. I didn't slag off the manufacturers or the dealer: I just stated it as it was. Are you suggesting that after our experience I should have kept quiet about it?

Harvey


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## firewood

hi i bought a new starblazer in dec 2008 and it was one problem after another .we nearly gave up on it .untill it went to johns cross these guys sorted all its problems out .now its ok .would i buy another NO WAY


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## Wupert

DJBullman said:


> Hi
> 
> We have a brand new Startrail and there is nothing wrong with it at all, me thinks someone has an axe to grind per chance ?
> 
> Dave


Having an Autocruise Oakmont from new I think you may be one of the lucky ones.

My MH had many unacceptable faults almost all due to shoddy workmanship during build

Wups


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## DJMotorhomer

no not at all, but it seemed all negative and no positives at all

didnt mean to anger you in any way and I apologise if I did
 
Dave


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## Jented

Hi Speedydux.
You may not be right in thinking the caravans are better. A few years back we bought a new Swift Challenger c/van,about a year in,arrived on site to find a top locker door had given up hanging on eighth of an inch screws,(Space frame technology) and settled down on the awning on the floor,it was easier to leave it off. When at the Lawns show at Cottingham,(swifts own back yard),while trying to dissuade my mate from buying a Challenger,he said,"They are different now"......We opened the door of the show model.....Locker door hanging off,in fairness,i told a sales rep about this,but it was half an hour before the unit was shut,curtains drawn. Nuff said.
Ted


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## ingram

DJBullman said:


> no not at all, but it seemed all negative and no positives at all
> 
> Dave


After finding negatives like that I can't believe anyone in their right mind would be hanging around looking for positives Dave.

Harvey


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## iengine

DJBullman said:


> no not at all, but it seemed all negative and no positives at all
> 
> didnt mean to anger you in any way and I apologise if I did
> 
> Dave
> 
> I agree with all you said, Dave, and no one should have been angered. I have had an Auto** Dakota for 4 years (built 2002) and I must say that, apart from some minor defects which shouldnt have been there anyway, it has given no problems. A friend who bought a new van at the time had lots, involving 500miles round trips to the dealers to sort out for which he was not compensated. Something for new buyers to be aware of! We hear of lots of problems with our members' vans at our weekend MCC rallies, and they are generally concerning the m/c construction, never the base vehicle. Quality Control does not exist today, and I am concerned about renewing mine. 3500kg max as I have passed the critcal age, and was looking at your model recently.
> 
> iengine


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## ingram

iengine said:


> DJBullman said:
> 
> 
> 
> no not at all, but it seemed all negative and no positives at all
> didnt mean to anger you in any way and I apologise if I did
> 
> Dave
> 
> I agree with all you said, Dave, and no one should have been angered. I have had an Auto** Dakota for 4 years (built 2002) and I must say that, apart from some minor defects which shouldnt have been there anyway, it has given no problems.
> 
> 
> 
> I am puzzled. What is it that Dave ( Bullman ) said that you agree with? All he said, apart from having a trouble free 'van. was that he thought that I 'had an axe to grind' by reporting what I did. That was tantamount to calling me a liar. Perhaps you are confused about 'who said what' in this thread.
> 
> Anyway, I had a look at a brand new Autotrail Somethingorother' today and just wait 'till you read my report on *that*!.......... although I think that some, or all of it, may be down to the dealer.
> 
> Harvey
Click to expand...


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## b2tus

We are very happy with our 2006 A/Cruise Starspirit and we have been most impressed with the quality of the build, particularly the woodwork.

The only slight niggle we have is the "wet room" type shower room and we would love a separate shower or a swingwall. With this in mind, we had briefly considered a new model Starspirit with the shower swingwall. However, this moment of madness passed quickly after we read more and more threads about the seemingly poor quality of construction of the new models compared with the build quality that we have experienced with our 2006 model. 

We will be keeping our excellent Starspirit and put up with the "mopping out" after each shower. Not really a hardship....more a slight inconvenience. Otherwise, we are delighted with it.


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## nipperdin

*Autocruise Startrail report*

From what I have seen I do not think that the "Swift" Autocruise models are as well finished as our 2003 model.
I cannot understand why they came up with the swing out cupboard idea- the original fixed L shape, as in our Starspirit, works fine.
On a couple of models that I have looked in the bolt to hold the extension did not line up with its hole. You had to lift the cupboard to get it to fit.
And that was with an empty cupboard. I am sure that once it has a few tins in it will drop even more on the hinge.
I thought that it might give access to more shelving behind but it doesn't.
All it does is allow you to put items in from either side.

It is like that pull out extension on the early Rhythms.
Instead of having to allow all of that movement in the water pipes all it needed was to have a simple lift up flap to give extra shelf space. They have not done that in the later models.

I think whoever designed the original Starspirit did a fantastic job of creating so much storage space but the later "modifications" spoilt a lot of it.
Even the most useful 5 drawers by the fridge were done away with- no doubt all down to cost cutting.


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## joedenise

What I cannot understand about everyone moaning about how their vans weren't fit or leaking, why not just reject it as not fit for purpose. It's what we did with a Bailey caravan before we bought the MH.

Joe


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## ingram

*Re: Autocruise Startrail report*



nipperdin said:


> I cannot understand why they came up with the swing out cupboard idea- the original fixed L shape, as in our Starspirit, works fine.
> On a couple of models that I have looked in the bolt to hold the extension did not line up with its hole. You had to lift the cupboard to get it to fit.
> And that was with an empty cupboard. I am sure that once it has a few tins in it will drop even more on the hinge.
> I thought that it might give access to more shelving behind but it doesn't.
> All it does is allow you to put items in from either side.


The 'swing out cupboard' is excellent in my opinion. When 'swung' that extra worktop is very useful even though the worktop area is quite generous without it. On our Starblazer there is a large shelved are behind the swing out. We use this for all the food storage. I think some models have the gas locker there, so no storage which does make the swing out idea less useful.

Yes, I have had to 'adjust' the securing bolt location but it was a ten minute job. I think a 'slide out' would work too for that extra worktop.

Harvey


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