# Deadly European virus



## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

More and more travellers look to eastern europe now for an alternative holiday destination, may or may not be aware of the risk of being infected with a potentially life threatening disease carried by a tick.
Health for travellers website will have more up to date info if you are planning to travel to Austria and Switzerland. I am a member of the NFA and recentlly we updated a map to show the extent of the affected areas. Be aware if you plan to spend time near lakes and rivers when fishing, cycling hiking etc.

More info VIRUS

Regards Dave


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Thanks Dave, good information, 

worthy of a sticky ?


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi cave
I am not wanting to dilute your timely warning about visiting those countries but I do think that although folk should be worried about those countries they should also be worried (or at least informed ) about woodland in the Uk .... it is possible to get a very debilitating disease here ...again carried by ticks.

Lyme Disease

I am sure many of us know about it but it will do no harm to add it to this thread...especiallly if you like the New Forest area or other woodlands.

mike

P.S. I am not scaremongering and It is rare....but not so rare .... a friend has suffered with it.


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi,

there is a vaccination against TBE. When I moved to Vienna 13 years ago I had myself and family vaccinated, as the forests around Vienna are risk-area. Since then I have it refreshed every 3 years. 

Though the probability for an infection is very low ("risk-area" means that between 1 and 5 % of all ticks carry the infection, and the risk of getting the disease if bitten by an infected tick is about 30%), TBE is a very nasty disease and there is no cure. Also the German Schwarzwald area, the Odenwald and large parts of Bavaria are risk-areas. 

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## 88838 (May 9, 2005)

should also be aware of virulant european virus that can only be treated by constant ferry / tunnel trips - accompanied by camper, for indetermined periods of time. Symptoms can be greatly eased by internal application of wine, baguettes and crepes. :twisted: 

8)


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

Mike I agree, a lot of folks are not aware of what harm can come to themseleves and family members on our own shores without looking further afield for hazards!

Boff the vaccine is available to all UK residents, the need for travellers to be aware is the important factor, and to seek advice from their GP before visiting areas 'at risk'.
If you look at the map shown on the link, it's easy to see where the virus is spreading too.

twooks the internal application,...red or white! :lol:


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## 88838 (May 9, 2005)

MandyandDave said:


> Mike I agree, a lot of folks are not aware of what harm can come to themseleves and family members on our own shores without looking further afield for hazards!
> 
> Boff the vaccine is available to all UK residents, the need for travellers to be aware is the important factor, and to seek advice from their GP before visiting areas 'at risk'.
> If you look at the map shown on the link, it's easy to see where the virus is spreading too.
> ...


who cares!!!!!!
especially since I've just discovered I now have to find £195 to tax the van!
colour governed to some extent by where we are, love sitting next to the Rhine sampling German wines by the glass! :roll:

8)


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## MOTORHOMER (May 9, 2005)

Hi


You dont even have to go to the new Forest or similar places to be bitten by a tick infected or otherwise. I was visiting my daughter and one of her cats jumped on my lap. Some time later I thought i had a funny mole suddenly appear on my tum. Keeping an eye on it to make sure it wasnt getting any bigger. Then I noticed a very ditinctive rash. Working for hampshire county council countryside service at the time I knew what this was & went straight to the doctors. All hell broke loose & I was seen immediately & treated for Lyme disease. What I thought was a mole was in fact the tick hooked onto my skin. Ticks and Lyme disease is very prevalent in & around the New Forest.


So are adders. But thats another topic.


Motorhomer


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## 97051 (Dec 27, 2005)

*european virus*

dont want to seem impertinant , but we cant wrap up in cotton wool all our lives , ( a bit of common goes a long way )


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi Motorhomer

that makes two friends that have been affected now :roll: 

Mike


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Thanks Dave, I had not heard of this one before but I am well aware of Lyme disease, so make that three if you want to count me as a friend Mike.

My eldest son contracted it whilst working in Germany. It was highly likely it originated from a tick bite in his garden! He had a period in hospital and had to have regular blood tests for months afterwards to check all was clear.

peedee


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

I too know someone who has had Lyme disease that young lady now needs 24hr care with a ventilator and motorised wheelchair. Ticks are v dangerous and spread quite a few diseases, we always check our dogs over and carry a tick removing kit. Haven't had to use it on ourselves yet. Ticks and the diseases thay carry are the main reason we wont be taking our dogs abroad with us using pet passports.


Frank


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

A reason we never replaced our dog when she died. I don't particularly care for the advice about removing them with a pair of tweezers! I was always told this was a dangerours practice because you run the risk of leaving a bit of the tick behind and possible infection. 

There is a common houshold item which you can simply dab on them with a cotton bud and it causes them to let go and drop off, trouble is I have forgotten what it is at the moment!  

peedee


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

*Re: european virus*



al-bly52 said:


> dont want to seem impertinant , but we cant wrap up in cotton wool all our lives , ( a bit of common goes a long way)


Hi al-bly

I could not agree more but without knowledge even the most "commonsensical" of us may get into trouble at times. If you already knew about ticks and the dangers then that's just great, If not you do now :wink:

P.S. Hi peedee....yes that makes three now :lol:

mike


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## annej (May 27, 2005)

The best way to remove a tic is to suffocate it. Cover the tic very thickly with Vasoline and wait a few minutes before removing.

Anne

PS Just "googled" it and some say it works others disagree so a couple of links
http://www.ehow.com/how_78_remove-tick.html
http://www.canoecampingclub.co.uk/issue258/tics_258.htm
I guess you have to make up your own mind.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Tick removal 

The vet uses a a small plastic device with a very narrow slot (it looks a bit like a sewing machine foot) You press it on the skin and slide it between the tick and the skin you then twist the tool between your fingers. Most vets sell them now they come in a pack of two, (different sizes).

I've removed several dozen this way, careful examination of the tick shows all the mouth parts and legs still attached to the tick, but beware the tick is almost always unaffected by this operation so you then need to kill it, don't let if fall inside the van. On only one occasion has there been any residual infection of the spot and its by far and away quicker than suffocating it. 

I've got a recipe for removing leeches as well. But i'll let you have your breakfast first.


Regards Frank


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## Enodreven (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi, 

Perhaps we could compile a list of possible problems that we can face when out and about

(1) TBE? From Ticks in Forests/woods etc ?
(2) Lyme Disease ??From Ticks in Forests/woods etc ?
(3) Virles Disease ?? from rats on canal/river banks ?
(4) Rabies ? from wild animals inc cats and dogs etc ?
(5) Bird Flu (H1F5) from poultry and wild birds including poultry farms and wet lands ??

not sure of the spelling of "Virles"

Hi i don't think i want to continue ????


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

annej said:


> The best way to remove a tic is to suffocate it. Cover the tic very thickly with Vasoline and wait a few minutes before removing.
> 
> Anne


I did a google too but didn't come up with anything other than use of tweezers! We definitely used to use a common household liquid, vasaline does not ring a bell. The stuff produced an almost instantaneous result, the other half thinks it may have been shampoo but even that I am not too sure about! I know we didn't have to go out and buy it, it was already available in the van. We used to rally quite a bit and farm fields quite often gave our dog ticks.

Someone out there must know for sure?

peedee


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## 2point (Jun 10, 2005)

That map doesn't have any entries for Scotland. I am pretty sure that some areas of the Highlands are affected by TBE.


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## annej (May 27, 2005)

Hi peedee,

One of the links mentions any "fatty" substance like margarine or sun cream, but I do remember an ex neighbour using washing-up-liquid so maybe your other half isn't too far off the mark.
I never attempted to use tweezers after seeing what can happen if it goes wrong. 

Anne


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Enodreven said:


> Snipped:
> Perhaps we could compile a list of possible problems that we can face when out and about
> Hi i don't think i want to continue ????


Hi Enodreven a good list but the dangers arenot a bad as you might think.
Yes the dangers are there but before we all get too paranoid:

1) TBE? From Ticks in Forests/woods etc ?
(2) Lyme Disease ??From Ticks in Forests/woods etc ?
Danger but to get a problem you first have to have a Tick attach itself to you and gorge itself full of blood....this takes it quite a time and you will most likely notice it before that has happened and remove it (see the instructions in the links from my first post).

(3) Weil's Disease ?? from rats on canal/river banks ?
Most mammals can carry the bacteria. The most significant one that causes Weil's disease is the rat.
People become infected when they come into contact with rat's urine: either directly by handling contaminated animals or their urine, or indirectly from touching areas or objects where an infected rat has urinated, such as rivers, lakes, canals or food stuffs. The tiny bacteria get into a person's body through cuts and grazes in the skin or through the fine membranes of the nose, ears and mouth. There are only around 20 cases of human Weil's disease confirmed each year in England and Wales and most of those are farmers or people in jobs that bring them into contact with rat infested areas..

(4) Rabies ? from wild animals inc cats and dogs etc ?
Rabies is not endemic in the UK ...so stay here :lol: Other than that at home, do not pick up a poor little bat, flapping about wildly on the ground...some can be infected with rabies.
Over "there" avoid stray dogs. In general, you should not pick sick animals up and never touch a dead fox. 

5) Bird Flu (H1F5) from poultry and wild birds including poultry farms and wet lands ??
The virus can infect people who are in close contact with infected birds - for example by people inhaling dried faeces that have become trampled into dust or stuck to the feathers or other parts of the body of the infected bird. So how many of us do that :?: 
People cannot catch bird flu from eating cooked chickens.

Mike


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

peedee said:


> annej said:
> 
> 
> > The best way to remove a tic is to suffocate it. Cover the tic very thickly with Vasoline and wait a few minutes before removing.
> ...


Wasn't my earlier answer good enough then?

Frank


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

sallytrafic said:


> Wasn't my earlier answer good enough then?
> 
> Frank


I think any method of pulling out a tick is not good news Frank, I think if you can use a common household item to make them let go of their own free will then so much the better. A bit like the remedie of using the little blue bag you used to have in the house for "whiten" clothes for dulling the pain of a wasp or bee sting.

The better half did also mention washing up liquid so sounds like that is what it was.

peedee


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi

Ticks are incapable of letting go....vaseline, washing up liquid etc are a no no.......it seems that quick and careful removal by the described method (tweezers or a tool) is the only safe way ...for dogs, cats and humans.

Mike


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

So what happens when they have had their fill and drop off then Mike?

peedee


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

If you nip in to any vets you can pick up a couple of different sized tools that in my experience on dogs are very effective. It's like a miniature crow bar with a split end. Stick it underneath the tick, twizzle it around and lever it out. Seems much better than the tweezers I used previously.

Dave


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

peedee said:


> So what happens when they have had their fill and drop off then Mike?
> 
> peedee


Hi peedee

I am no expert so this is just how I see it.....and having made mistakes in the past...with dogs, I have now tried to understand what is happening Now that we have Ticks carrying dangerous viri it is even more important. When the tick attaches it starts to gorge on your (or the dogs) blood. Then if it harbours dangerous bugs these recognise the new blood that has been taken into the ticks stomach and start to multiply at a fast rate, they know a host is ready to be infected...then just before the tick drops off these nasties are secreted into the new host via the ticks saliva...into you or your dog. This process can take up to 24 hours to complete...so plenty of time to remove the tick. The problem with using chemicals or the like to make the tick release is that they will before they release disgorge thier stomach contents ( and the nasties)into the host.

Even using the tweezer or tool method care must be taken not to touch the tick with your bare hands and if you are ultra careful you will pop it into a clean container with a bit of damp tissue to keep it alive ( in the fridge) so that if you or your dog, do go down with anything you will have the tick available for testing.

Mike

P.S. If you are a dog owner who goes "in the wild" then you will have learnt to deal with the tick problem and whatever method you use 9 times out of 10 everything wil be OK ...it is the 10th time when it all goes wrong that you have to worry about .... maybe even more important if it is you yourself that gets a tick......OK maybe not :lol: ...my dogs were always top of the list when it came to getting the best treatment :wink:

Mike


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Ah! Now I see where you are coming from, it not the fact they won't let go its what they do when they do. Thanks for the explanation.

Arsnel 1 Juventus 0 at half time 

peedee


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi,

sorry to say that, but some of the advice I read here regarding tick removal is not exactly the best thing to do. In addition, the two main diseases carried by ticks are totally different. I have some experience here because of the time I lived in Vienna, where the forests around the city are teeming with ticks and TBE is quite widespread. As a matter of fact I had found some ticks on my skin almost after every walk through the forests:

TBE is caused by a virus, that means that there is no cure. Antibiotics do not work against viruses. In addition, in an infected tick the virus resides in the salivary glands, so once the tick has tapped a blood vessel it already spreads the virus. Removal is too late then. Prophylaxis however is possible by vaccination. TBE is (so far) limited to certain risk areas.

Lyme disease is caused by bacteria. There is no vaccination against it, but it can be cured with antibiotics if diagnosed in a timely manner. Typical early symptom is a redness of the skin slowly spreading from the bite after about 5-30 days. You should immediately contact you GP if you observe this after a tick bite. Other than the TBE virus lyme bacteria reside in the tick's intestinal tract, so it takes several hours after the bite until an infection might occur. Lyme disease is endemic in ticks all over Europe.

As a consequence removal of a tick that has already bitten is completely useless against TBE, but quite effective against Lyme disease if done in time. *However:* If you suffocate the tick before removal, it will in its agonal state "vomit" into the blood vessel, thus increasing the risk of a Lyme infection dramatically!

As our common hobby brings many of us into close contact with nature (which is of course very good), two precautionary measures should be taken: First, if you intend to travel to a TBE risk area, get vaccinated. Second, no matter whether you are in a risk area and vaccinated or not, after any walk through the forest or high grass search for any ticks. And if one has already bitten, remove it *without suffocating* as soon as possible.

BTW, certain mozzie repellants (like Autan) also help against ticks.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi

Right that should have cleared the New Forest for our forthcoming trip... :lol: :lol: .


Mike


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

No, you just made us use our last two Front Line capsules. We parted the hair on each other's backs and squirted it in.

Dave


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Tick removal tool that I was and I'm sure DAB was referring to.

Regards Frank


Haven't quite mastered the correct order of attachments but read from bottom to top.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Frank ,
A bit like weeding really.

Thanks Boff a most interesting post and altogether an interesting thread. 

peedee


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