# downgrading GVW to get more trailer weight?



## seanoo (Mar 31, 2007)

hi all, some people on the site here in spain have a 08 autotrail cheiftain with a GVW of 5000kg's and they have a peugeot 107 on a single axle trailer. now, the train weight is 6000kg's.
1. does this mean that their maximum trailer weight is 1000kg
2. the cars kerb weight is 820kg, is this the weight used or the GVW 
of the car which is 1120 kgs to calculate the total weight of the 
trailer. also the trailer weighs 350kg's 

3. to get round this is it just a case of downplating the chassis to 
4800 kg's to get the extra or the trailer? 
thanks for any advice in advance, all the best sean


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

You do not need to downplate the vehicle. Its the total train weight MEASURED so just ensure that you keep the actual loading of the motorhome to a minimum. Check it all out on your local weighbridge, car an all!

C.


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## joedenise (Jul 20, 2007)

On your plate there is another figure that gives GTW (Gross Train Weight). This will be higher than the GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight).

Joe


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Duh, Sean quotes the train weight in his post.................

I agree with Clive, Alan.


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## VJP (Dec 8, 2010)

Three things to consider:
1. Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) of van,
2. Gross Train Weight (GTW) of van
AND
3. GVW of trailer.
For goods and private vehicles, it is the plated weights that are important NOT what they actually weigh.

So in this case, if the GVW is 5000kg and the GTW is 6000kg then you are limited to a trailer that has a GVW of 1000kg irrespective of what is actually on the trailer.

Vic


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## seanoo (Mar 31, 2007)

hi vic, thats the way i thought it worked but we seem to have conflicting views here. so, they have a camper GVW 5000, GTW 6000 and a trailer which has a GVW of 1350(including car) which makes them 350 kg over weight then? i have just spotted another problem in that if we work to this system then because the trailer has a GVW of 1350kg even without the car on they would still be over weight?? confused now, sean

sorry vic , just re-read your post and can see that is what you actually said  

so if they down plate the chassis and load accordingly by the 350kg then they would be ok?


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## hymerb594 (Sep 5, 2010)

I'm confused too! What about towing a smart car on an a frame? the log book states the car's working weight at 780kg but that obviously includes a driver and passenger. When towed on an a frame it has neither and weighs less than 750kg...meaning (surely?!) that it does not need to be braked? The fact that it has brakes fitted should not apply as they are intended for when in use as a car, not in it's effective use now as a trailer...


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## brandywine (Aug 28, 2007)

Sorry to disagree with Vic, but I believe that you are only limited to 1000kg on a trailer if you load the vehicle right up to its GVW.

If you load the vehicle to less, you can have a trailer with higher weight.

The GTW is vehicle and trailer combined, if you are lower on the towing vehicle, you can go up on the trailer.

Bear in mind that the trailer will have its own GVW and you cannot exceed that.

Regards.


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## seanoo (Mar 31, 2007)

hi, thats a whole different story but briefly if a trailer is under 750kg then it doesnt need to be braked but if brakes are fitted they must work regardless of weight, regards sean


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## brandywine (Aug 28, 2007)

Sorry to disagree with Vic, but I believe that you are only limited to 1000kg on a trailer if you load the vehicle right up to its GVW.

If you load the vehicle to less, you can have a trailer with higher weight.

The GTW is vehicle and trailer combined, if you are lower on the towing vehicle, you can go up on the trailer.

Bear in mind that the trailer will have its own GVW and you cannot exceed that.

Regards.


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

I believe that some are interpreting the rules to their disadvantage.

If the GVW of the vehicle is say 4000 Kg
and the GTW is say 5000 Kg
then if the vehicle is actually at 4000 KG then the total trailer can only be up to 1000 KG

But
If the weighed vehicle is 3500 Kg then the trailer can be 1500 Kg.

The vehicle plating does not limit the trailer weight, just the combined weight of the vehicle AND trailer. i.e. if one weighs less then the other can weigh more.
Simples.
C.


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## Chascass (May 10, 2007)

This thread covered a lot of the points, look at Noel post on page 9

Charlie

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-48999-days0-orderasc-80.html


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## exmusso (Jun 18, 2006)

*GTW*

If the Gross Train Weight is 6000 kg that is the maximum to work back from.

If the trailer and car are attached, then actual weight of car (including anything carried inside) and trailer should be deducted from 6000kg. 
Anything over 1000kg would then have to come off the GVW to stay legal.

If you downgrade the GVW, you will lose the payload if not pulling the car and trailer.

As long as the van, payload, car and trailer are within the axle weights and Gross Train Weight, you can mix and match to suit.

If you are pulling car and trailer at 1350kg, you can only load up to 4650kg assuming axles are not overloaded.

Hope this helps,
Alan


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Clive is spot on.
GTW means just that, The combined weight of vehicle and trailer.

Dave p


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## wooly (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Clive is quite correct, people get confused because the there are two sets of rules.
1) For Drivers licensing with trailer - where the gross vehicle weights are applied
2) For goods vehicle weights - where the gross train weight applies.

So for Van and trailer providing that each individual part (ie van or trailer) does not exceed its gross vehicle weight or any axle, then the limit is set by the Gross Train Weight.
The same rules apply throughout the Haulage industry and would be unworkable in the form suggested by some people.


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## lifeson (Sep 13, 2010)

But what if the manufacturers set a maximum towing limit of a 1000kgs?


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## wooly (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi If the manufacturer says max 1000kg they have given you the answer, 1000kg it is, otherwise you are out of warranty and everything else when it pulls off the back of your van!!
Michael


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

Phew, Wooly and Lifeson pull the right answer out of the bag at the last minute.

Clive's absolutely right that it's actual that matters, so in principle if e.g. the max train weight was 6000kg, actual laden weight of motorhome was 4750kg then max weight of the toad (+trailer / +a-frame as applicable) would be 1250kg...MTPLM of the motorhome and max gross weight of toad doesn't come into it (although obviously you need to stay within their individual limits).

However, many Autotrails (can't say if all, RTFM for your own model) have a max trailer weight of 1040kg : I'm assuming it's determined by the strength of the chassis extensions. It would certainly mean that my Fiat 500C couldn't be pulled on a trailer.

Paul


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

You could if it were a genuine original Fiat 500cc air cooled rear wheel drive jobbie and not a modern front wheel drive water cooled 1200cc vehicle of the same name.

Wife wishes she still had hers.

C.


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## goldi (Feb 4, 2009)

Evening all,



do not forget that there will be a weight plate on the trailer as well which should not be exceded.
So load up and down to the weighbridge you go .


norm


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

CliveMott said:


> You could if it were a genuine original Fiat 500cc air cooled rear wheel drive jobbie and not a modern front wheel drive water cooled 1200cc vehicle of the same name.
> 
> Wife wishes she still had hers.
> 
> C.


History through rose tinted glasses :?: She probably wouldn't want it if she actually sat in one now :lol: . Park them next to a modern car and she'll see how tiny they are. Not to mention the safety implications... but I agree an absolute design classic.

(Incidentally mine's a 1.3 diesel...the 1.2 petrol & new twin-air ones are less of an issue but it's the diesel lump that adds approx 80kg to the kerbweight).

All of which is irrelevant to this thread!!


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## lifeson (Sep 13, 2010)

Rosbotham said:


> It would certainly mean that my Fiat 500C couldn't be pulled on a trailer.
> 
> Paul


I had quite fancied a Fiat 500 but never looked at the weight.
I had even got the colour scheme in mind to match an Auto trail


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

500's fine for weight...it's the convertible that adds extra.


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

Yep, Clive is right train weight is the _actual_ weight of the _combination_ each and every time you take to the road or as D f T say LADEN  weight. Still got to keep to all other constraints though e.g. individual MAMs, axle weights, towbar weight, vehicle manufacturer's max towing limit, licence limitation etc etc :roll:

Noel.


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