# trust for house



## kenny (Jun 4, 2005)

have had a firm called Prestige tax &trust services, selling lasting power of attorney&trust for the house,it's about the trust i am writing about ,has any one done it ,they said it would stop my house being taken if we had to go into care?But solicitors say no, any one done it ,bit different than motor home bits kenny


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## JLO (Sep 27, 2006)

I used to deal with LPA, I've never heard of this, if you are concerned you could contact the office of the public guardian. They have information on there.

LPA changed a few years ago and you now have one for finances and one for health and well-being. You can give one to one person and one to another they don't have to be with the same person. Most people ask a relative they trust to do this. If you were to become incapable of looking after your finances and you had no one to do it for you an application could be made under Court of Protection. 

Personally I would be cautious 

Jacqui


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## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

If your solicitors are saying "No" then why are you even contemplating it? Sounds like a scam to me.

There are ways of paying for care without having to lose your house, it just depends on age/health etc.

JohnW


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## Pollydoodle (Aug 18, 2005)

We have done what may be similar, through our local trusted solicitor, whom we have known for years
My understanding is that we no longer own the house as joint tenants and that half of the house is held in trust, so that only half the house can be claimed. I dont remember the exact wording and the copies are tucked away safely so I cant check. Cant say I understand it either, but we wanted to protect at least some of our boys small inheritance in the event of one or both of us needing care :roll:


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## philoaks (Sep 2, 2008)

We've done something similar to Polly, via a solicitor, called "Tenants in Common".

My understanding of it is that we both own half the house. When one of us dies their half of the house is transfered to our son and whoever of us remains has the right to live in the house until their death (at which point the full ownership would pass to our son).

The advantage of this is that, if whichever of us survives the longest has to go into care, the house cannot be sold to pay care costs as it is only half owned and (currently) the state cannot force a sale.

Phil


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

What it means Phil is because your son owns half it has no value as an asset in your name. However, the local authority can have a court look at this if they think it's been done specifically to get out of your requirement to pay for your care. For example. If you do this when you are both in good health and are a good few years away from possibly needing care then the court will take that as you haven't tried to be unreasonable. If you've both got chronic ailments and are looking to get some state aid, but have passed the property on to your son they can overturn this and you will then be liable for care costs and any legal bill.

It's called "Intent to dispose of assets". it's there to stop people giving away their assets, making themselves intentionally poor and making us all pay for care the person could reasonably afford.

They, the LA, hardly ever bothered with this but as they are becoming more cash strapped they are looking more closely at these ways people are attempting to avoid paying and passing the bill for their care on to everyone else.

There is a guideline called CRAG, (Charges for Residential Accommodation Guidelines), that explains everything more clearly. You can find it on the NHS website. The LA are well aware of this guideline and use it to their advantage when they can, it might be a good idea to swot up yourself!

Also make your son aware, if he already isn't, that if your joint home isn't his main residence he may become liable for Capital Gains Tax when he tries to sell it when you've gone! This is completely separate from an Inheritance Tax.


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## JLO (Sep 27, 2006)

I agree with Annsman. I used to be an advocate and I advocated for a lady whose family had tried to dispose of her assets and Social Services did pursue them for the money, about £26k if I recall.

Shortly after this I went to work for social services for a year and I used to have to explain what the LA would regard as disposing of assets. 

What is also worth noting is that if a persons care is paid for in their own LA area and you move them to another area, ie nearer to where you live, not every LA pays the same amount for care provided. The LA where I live are (or were) more generous than some other counties, however if our payment was more than the other LA we would only match their payment, which can leave the family having to make up the shortfall.

Another case I dealt with as an advocate was of a lady who lived on the county border and her own county refused to pay for her husbands care as he had his own property to sell (she had her own so wouldn't have been made homeless) so because her own county refused to pay for his care until his property had been sold she put him in a home over the county border and thought that the new LA authority would pay for her husbands care, however she was in for an unpleasant surprise when they refused and she was left with a huge care bill.

However none of the above are to do with Lasting Power of Attorney, which was mentioned in the OP, that is a different thing.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Yes

Be aware that any attempt to escape costs will be studied in fine detail

Otherwise we could all give away our assets to our kids

Inhertance tax has sewn this up well

I can and do give as many 250 pounds as possible, 6 kids 10 grandkids

I've plenty of chances

The gift of 3,000 difficult because of numbers

Once a year to 6

The ones inthe end may miss out lol: :lol: 

We do what we can

And we may yet blow it

If I can think of how to  

But I don't really want anything

I'm not going to fly off to pastures new

A few meanderings in the MH 

With the hound from hell

Alberts health and I suppose mine

Come on we've done OK

Aldra


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## teensvan (May 9, 2005)

Hi.

I have been told by our FA that we can put our rented properties into trust to avoid them being touched but not the house you live in. Downside is that you do not collect the rent as that also goes in the trust so a lot of planning has to be done to make sure you do not skint yourself.

I shall read all posts on this subject as we all get told a slightly different way to go.

steve & ann. -------- teensvan


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

Just to stir up a debate, but still on topic.

If you need care and have a property, or other assets, that would enable you to contribute, or pay the full costs, why should you take action to avoid those costs and pass them on to the rest of the tax paying society?

Finances for local authorities are getting much tighter and many can now only afford to fund basic services. Central government funding has been cut to the same % levels of the 1930's when there was no, or little welfare state. The vast majority of people had no assets, pensions or savings to help fund our old age, and it wasn't as long as present day either. So local authorities were legally tasked with this care. 

These days we have properties, in many cases running into hundreds of thousands of pounds, varied pension pots and a decent state pension system, yet we still expect a cash strapped local authority to fund our longer old age while we pass on these assets to children without a conscience that other people should pick up the tab. 

Fair or just another way of tax evasion? Discuss!


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Don't see it that way

If I spent everything I had 

The state would pick up the tab

If I take care, then they can take the money I've saved

I don't object to paying

But the amount you have to pay until a pittance of savings is left

Is unfair

Why bother to save anything

Of course it's a bet

Will you or won't you need residential care?????

Most don't

So fingers crossed

Aldra


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## JLO (Sep 27, 2006)

I agree with Annsman, someone has to pick up the bill at the end of the day be it the person themselves or the taxpayer. We all end up paying for it one way or another. 

I have seen the other side of it where some families would do anything to avoid paying care home fees, including allowing their relatives to be discharged back home from hospital when it clearly wasn't safe to let them do so and they needed 24 hour care. I have been on the receiving end of the wrath of families who are expected to sell their parents house to pay for the care and I have pointed out on more than one occasion that I didn't make the rules and the same rules apply to me. 

I don't do that job any more because I always felt I was arguing with someone, the hospital ward managers about bed blocking, patients families who didn't want their relatives in a home but didn't want them with them either. It literally drove me up the wall and I take my hat off to the people who are still doing the job.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

In regard to the op question, leave well alone. It is just another way of taking money from you and getting the property at a knock down price.
IF you feel that you want someone to look after your affairs both financial and health, then get your own solicitor to arrange that for you, but make sure you understand what it entails.

cabby


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

I am with Aldra on this. We own our house as Tennants in common and I have set up Discretion Trusts in our wills. Originally this was to avoid/reduce Inheritance Tax when there was a very low ceiling and not to avoid care costs even though the Trusts could be used for this. The surviving partner is one of the trustees so it does not necessarilly mean care cost would not be paid if required. Its for the trustees to decide or risk the wrath of the LA?

Thanks for the info Annsman, I will have to check out CRAG.

peedee


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I have a trust fund

Set up for me for 100,000 pounds prior to inheriting

It pays me a monthly sum

But hasn't gone down much

It can't be included for inheritance tax

The rest can

I don't really understand it

But it may well be worth looking at trust funds

My money is in the hands of a financial advisor, a partner of an investment firm

He seems to be sorting it
At least he has for years

I would not be able to
And to be truthful wouldn't want to
I would gain no pleasure from wheeling and dealing

Aldra


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Complicated business Aldra best left to the likes of solicitors and finacial advisors although I do try and make an effort to gain some understanding. The CRAG was a useful document and worth keeping a copy of for reference. I didn't find anything to be alarmed about in it.  
peedee


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

aldra said:


> Don't see it that way
> 
> If I spent everything I had
> 
> ...


I don't think £ 23,250 is a pittance Aldra. It's not a bad sum of money to be allowed as an asset. Once you get down to this amount the sum you pay reduces for every £250 you drop below that figure. Anns' dad was in a care home for 7 years and we kept his money down to that quite easily. Banks don't pay much interest now so they helped! :roll:

After that if he needed anything for his room, t.v., bedside fridge, electric assist chair, electric assist bed, plus amounts up to £100 for Christmas & birthday presents for family were supplied from his funds. All we did was supply receipts and reasons why we bought stuff to the local council finance team and not once did they quibble. Once they realised I'd read, and understood CRAG I was treated more as an "equal" and our relationship was based on mutual respect and assistance for the remainder of his time in care, until he died.

In the later stages of his illness we applied for Continuing Funding from the NHS to pay for his care package, but after two independent assessments he was refused. Now that was something I did get annoyed about at, and is a different subject!


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I've been retired for many years

23 Th

It didn't used to be that

But I suppose it depends from where you start from

Aldra


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Isn't that less than the average wage these days which rather puts it into perspective.
peedee


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

With care home fees for private fee payers £100+ per day

It doesn't take long to spend savings

There is a degree of subsidising LA residents as the LA set the fees they are prepared to pay much lower

Requesting family to top up LA funding seems to be much more comman now

As the case recently where the family couldn't and the resident had to find a different cheaper home

It remains a minefield in the care system

Aldra


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## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

At least there is a minefield!

In South Africa, you're on your own mate! Although it's much cheaper than UK. I do wonder what I will do when I get old and stupid. 

One of the charities I write for is a welfare organisation for the aged in the area where I live when in SA and they do fantastic work. The state pension here is about R1400 a month and it costs about R7000 a month to keep someone in their frail care units. So the rest, or most of it is sponsored by caring individuals and charitable trusts. 

I know its different in UK you've contributed all your working lives to wards your old age, so its a conundrum - do you EXPECT benefits, or are you going to spend the savings you strived to collect - when others drank/smoked/or simply couldn't manage it? My Dad was in that situation my sister was 'forced' to sell his flat to pay for his care. But they did give them time to do it. Is that fair? We were just happy he was being looked after at that vulnerable time. We didn't miss the money. (The Lord provides - so it is said in the Bible. I believe that although I'm sure some of you will be sceptical of such a belief. NB. I'm not pushing any agendas!!!!)


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