# Eberspacher Hydronic problem.



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

My heating, an Eberspacher Hydronic D4W or D5W, won't know which without getting under the van, has been sounding a bit off for a few days. The best way to describe it is to say that the normal constant low roar became a bit wobbly. This was accompanied by a slightly odd smell which I assumed was some unburned fuel in the exhaust even though the smell was more reminiscent of creosote. It also refused to start up at times but switching it off for a few minutes and trying worked.

This morning naturally enough, it being Christmas day, it has been belching out grey smoke and had reached the stage where it must be turned off till it's repaired.

I wondered if there was any simple explanation, blocked air intake, fuel filter or some such.

We are in Spain so we won't freeze but it's our only means or heating the van and of heating water apart from boiling kettles.

Any suggestions would be very welcome.

I have looked on the net and can't find a list of European Service Agents, any help with that would also be appreciated, Alan.


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## spatz1 (May 19, 2011)

can only hazard a guess ...
but i ve only seen gray smoke fron diesel being burnt associated with a lack of diesel being injected/ available for burn.....
( Although modern injection pumps have no adjustment, my old 70 s bedford diesel had 2 simple adjustments on the injection pump and fed up with the black smoke when i climbed 600m up the mountains home i fiddled and was able to lean it off to the point there was no black smoke and any further produced gray......)


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

I only have a list of UK agents. You could try contacting Eberspacher in Germany when they are open:--

J. Eberspächer
GmbH & Co. KG
Eberspächerstraße 24
73730 Esslingen
GERMANY

Phone: +49 711 939-00
Fax: +49 711 939-0634
[email protected]

.best I can do.

Harvey


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Moral support only I'm afraid Alan. I know nothing about those gadgets. :roll: 

A few glasses of grape juice might help the situation. :wink: 

Have a good day anyway!

Dave


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## ozwhit (Feb 29, 2008)

Hi it. Sounds like it Needs a Decoke , here's some eber info : http://www.letonkinoisvarnish.co.uk Happy Xmas. Gary


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks for that, the Hydronic is very different even if the principals are similar. I have had hot air heaters apart in the past but don't know anything about the Hydronic models and am reluctant to dismantle it at least till I know whether there are common service parts which may be required.

Thanks Dave it's not a disaster, just a nuisance and absolutely typical of my luck on Christmas day. I also have the first puncture in my new bike this morning. I hope the heating is as easy to fix as the puncture. 

Merry Christmas all, Alan.



















Humbug.


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

I've had another look and have an address for the Spanish & Portugeuse Eberspacher 'Dealer' as listed in my 'Combitronic' booklet from Eberspacher UK. This may be the Spanish equivalent of 'Eberspacher UK' .

They are:--

Pedro Sans Clima S.L.
Av. Ingeniero Torres Quevedo, 6
E-28022 Madrid

Tel:- 0034 (91) 7613830

Fax:- 0034 (91) 3294231

hopefully they can put you in touch with a local service agent. This could be a company local to a boat marina or a lorry service agent , possibly.

Btw if you are a DIY'er and have suitable tools with you, it may be worth removing the Hydronic unit from the 'van and taking it to the agent for a service rather than paying them the labour charge to remove it. You would of course, have to drain the coolant and refill after and that's assuming that it isn't just a blocked air intake or something simple.

I hope that helps,

Harvey


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

Quote "the Hydronic is very different even if the principals are similar. I have had hot air heaters apart in the past but don't know anything about the Hydronic models and am reluctant to dismantle it at least till I know whether there are common service parts which may be required " end quote
=====

Ah! so further to may last post I see that you are a DIY'er. I have removed and stripped my Hydronic unit to fix the 'coolant' pump which was sticking. It is a bit of a fiddle but quite straightforward. I wouldn't want to be doing it on a campsite though.

There is a you-tube item that demonstrates the stripping of a Hydronic: a guy called Steve if I remeber right and it was very useful to see how to do it: sorry don't have a direct link. A search on Eberspacher Hydronic repair or similar should find it. I also have some PDF files which show the strip down of a Hydronic: I don't rememebr exactly where I got them from: but one of the Eberspacher websites somewhere. I could send to you if you like.

Harvey


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks Harvey. I noticed that video and will take a look. I will PM my email address to you and would appreciate any info. you have too.

The part I was wondering about is the flame gauze. As far as I know these have to be replaced on Webasto heaters but can be cleaned on Eberspacher products, but I am not sure. I also don't know about draining and refilling the coolant. I assumed the heat was transferred via a heat exchanger so that it would not be necessary to drain the the coolant in the radiators etc., can you tell me anything about that please.

Cheers, Alan.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

If it makes you feel any better Alan, I bet our stink is worse than yours! 8O 

We have a split in the sewerage pipe as it leaves the house, and the wind today is in just the wrong direction . . . it's blowing a throat-gripping stench back from the drains into the kitchen.

Yeeeeeeuuuuukkkkkkkkkk!!! 8O 8O 

Fortunately we have been invited next door for Christmas lunch, or I don't think we would have had any.

Can't do anything myself either - so we are hoping a). the wind direction soon changes, and b). that our local friendly builder can fit us in as soon as possible. :roll: 8O 

Dave


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

Alan,

I don't know much about the gauze cleaning / replacement, burner jets etc. but I think that video and the maintenance info. that I have will probably cover that.

As far as the 'coolant' goes: I think that you have an Alde and I have an Eber Combitronic. Mine doesn't have wet radiators so I don't know about that. The 'coolant' in mine is in a header tank and is circulated by the internal pump in the Hydronic; through the 'calorifier' in the hot water tank and through a heat exchanger for the warm air heating. I guess that you will have a heat exchanger of some sort but don't know. the draining of coolant that I mentioned is the water / coolant / antifreeze mix ( whatever it is called ) that circulates through the Hydronic and header tank. This will need draining if you remove the Hydronic unit ( unless of course, the installers have fitted any shut off valves in the circuit so you only lose some liquid from the Hydronic itself: now there's an idea! )

I'll send you anything I have that is useful if you PM me your mail address. I also have some photgraphs of my Hydronic being stripped. I can send those too if you like. I am not sure how 'big' these PDF's and photo's are. Do you have a fast, cheap connection or will large files be a problem?

Harvey


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks Harvey, I can download whatever you send and will be very grateful for it. PM sent with email address, Alan.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I watched this video: 




It makes servicing look quite simple and I would have a go right now except that the bloke says two gaskets are needed, one of them always fails. So till I can find parts there is nothing I can do.

Thanks for the help, Alan.


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## trek (May 1, 2005)

I wonder if you can get at the diesel furnace side of the heater without needing to drain down the coolant - if not clamp the two 20mm rubber hoses with mole grips or similar to stop the coolant leaking out (if they don't stop leaking try two screwdrivers on opposite sides of the hoses at right angles & then clamp the screwdrivers with mole grips) or if all else fails drain it all into clean 5 litre drinking water containers & if its not contaminated you can pour it back into the expansion tank when all finished 


attachment is a manual with a parts list for a similar eberspacher 

I have a full parts list & a service manul but they are
too large to add to the forum I can email if you want them PM me 

does your sprinter have the MB Eberspacher engine heater behind the front left wheel ?? I wonder if you could swap them over or at least use it for spares 

is the fuel pump supplying sufficient fuel - disconnect the fuel line at the heater switch it on & see if the fuel is pulsed out ?


The control unit, temperature sensor, overheat sensor and
flame sensor continually monitor heater functions and will
shut down the heater in case of a malfunction.
• The control unit ensures electrical circuits (fuel pump,
combustion air blower etc.) are complete prior to starting
the heater.
• If the heater fails to ignite within 90 seconds of the fuel
pump being started, the starting procedure will be
repeated. If the heater again fails to ignite after 90
seconds of fuel being pumped, a “no start safety
shutdown” follows. (Fault #52)
• If the heater flames out during operation, the heater
automatically attempts to restart. If the heater fails to
ignite within 90 seconds of fuel delivery, the heater will
turn off the fuel pump and complete a cool down and display
a F052 code. After troubleshooting the problem the
heater can be started again by switching the heater off
and then back on again.
• Overheating due to lack of water, a restriction or a poorly
bled coolant system results in the overheat shutdown
(F012). Fuel delivery will cease and an “overheat shut
down” follows. If heater overheats 3 consecutive times, a
lockout on the control unit will occur. To unlock the control
unit you will need to use the Fault Code Retrieval Device.
See following pages for self diagnostics.
• If at any time the voltage drops below 10.5V for 20 seconds,
or rises above 16.0V for 20 seconds the heater will
shut down and display the associated Fault Code.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks Trek. I am pretty sure I don't even need to drain it to service it. I reckon I can just drop it off the mountings and have enough slack in the water pipes to dismantle it. The trouble is I don't have gaskets or any material to make them, Alan.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks Harvey. I got all the info. you emailed, very helpful.

I note what you say about having to remove it for service. It will be easier that way.

I will now consider whether to have a go without replacement gaskets. I guess that Instant Gasket would not cope with the heat even as a temporary measure. Does anyone know? Alan.

Edit: Found tech data for Instant Gasket: http://www.silmid.com/getattachment...335c6bf/Hylosil-Instant-Gasket-Tech-Data.aspx I wonder what temperature the Hydronic gets to I will now look for that.


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## MiketheWelshman (May 1, 2005)

Hi Alan, hope this has'nt spoilt your Xmas. I have exactly the same set up, so following this thread with great interest. Thanks to all who have contributed. The problem sounds fuel related to me and although my unit works perfectly I have noticed the smell does change with the fuel, diesel does vary a great deal. With that in mind, I was wondering what the ambient air temperature is and wether this might be causing some waxing of the fuel. The build up of wax in a filter or strainer can lead to fuel starvation. We are off to the Alps in a couple of weeks so must check mine over. Thanks again for the heads up. I have looked into adding an Alde unit into the system, but the quote was a good bit over budget for me, but technically feasible.
Mike


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Hello Mike, we are in Spain near the Med. so temperature is not a problem and we are fairly comfortable without heat at the moment.

I am not sure if I mentioned this earlier in the thread. Being unable to find anything about servicing in my handbook I called with an Eberspacher agent in Germany last Spring. He told me there was no requirement for periodic servicing and that all they do is connect a diagnostic machine to it to check if all is as it should be. They did that and gave it the OK.

I doesn't seem wise to let it fail before servicing. Mine is approaching four years old so I guess servicing every second year may be wise for us, although bear in mind we have been full timing in Europe since we bought the van and using it every day, you can do your own guesstimate from there. I imagine that for infrequent users it might run fine for many years before needing service, Alan.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Sorry for several in a row.

I took it off and dismantled it. The combustion chamber gasket has clearly blown. I found one of the screws holding the combustion chamber in place was only finger tight, no doubt causing the blow. The other gasket which the chap in the video said always fails did fail in the dismantling although there was no sign of it's having been blown when in use. That gasket is very thick, maybe 1.5mm at a guess.

Both gaskets would be fairly simple to make if I knew what material to use and could get hold of some. I will see what info. I can find about that now.

I have a final problem though. When I disconnected the unit from the water pipes under the van I had expected the heating system to drain and had some containers ready to collect as much coolant as possible. What happened was that only around three gallons of coolant drained out. I have no idea in what way the this coolant is connected to that which circulates to provide the central heating. If it is separate I have now idea how to refill that part of the system. I am quite familiar with the workings of the van and have found only one header tank which I know supplies the circulated hot water as I had to drain and refill it last year when my boiler sprung a leak. I can't imagine that bleeding is performed with the heater switched on to circulate water. Any information on that would be most welcome, Alan.


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

Hi Alan,

There is a bleed screw on the top of the black plastic water pump housing. I am sure that one of the documents that I sent to you shows it's location. On my Combitronic system, all I did was to refill the header tank and then open the bleed screw until water came out. Job done.

I Don't know how your 'wet' system is set up but I suspect that the 'coolant' which circulates through the Hydronic is also that which is circulated through your radiators. I expect that having drained it, your header tank is now empty. If this is the case I assume that you would need to bleed the individual radiators as well if you have them rather than just those 'finned pipes'. Three gallons sounds like quite a lot of fluid to me.

I will send you one or two more documents. I have a schematic for a system installed in a boat which uses a 'wet' system so it may be similar to yours.

Harvey


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## MiketheWelshman (May 1, 2005)

Hi Alan, 3 gallons sounds about right to me, should be a good percentage of the fluid. Two things come to mind, first, the system is vented and unpressurised, therefore if you re-fill it slowly and open the bleeds all around the system and gradually re-fill shutting the vents as they as the level comes up, most of the air should come out. If you did'nt open any of the vents before removing the unit, then some fluid will be trapped in the system.This will level itself out when open the bleeds at the extremities of the van. The other point to bear in mind is the thermostatic valve which gives priority flow to the hotwater calorifier will be closed, so no circulation around the heating circuit until the hot water return changes the valve over, and the pipework for the summer/ winter valve will have air in it as well,Its right next to the primary pipework near the calorifier. Probably all the air wont come out of the system straight away so you might have to top up several times. The van should be level as well while bleeding.
Looking at the pictures on You tube, standard sheet gasket material suitable for oil etc should be ok. Might be available from a boat yard, but unless you are desperate, it might be better to ring Germany or the UK for the right parts and either pick them up in Spain or have them posted. How dirty was burner chamber when you dismantled it?
Mike


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks again chaps.

I have rebuilt it and refitted it. I made one gasket from ordinary gasket paper I scrounged from a local mechanic and reused the combustion chamber one as it seemed undamaged.

Inside all was pretty well sooted up but no heavy carbon deposits. Cleaned with a toothbrush as the video recommended. There are some minor cracks around what I might describe as the flame focus in the combustion chamber, just what you would expect on thin metal constantly exposed to a flame. I don't think they would effect it's working, but I will replace it when I can get parts.

As I said earlier I had to bleed the system last year after having the boiler repaired so I am pretty well OK with that. The bleed screw on to of the Hydronic has air free water flowing out which means water has got down that far. I imagine the pump in the Hydronic now has to pump the water back up the outlet till it reaches the heat exchanger/boiler which may be a big job for it. The next bleeder I can find after the Hydeonic is on the heat exchanger which is maybe 600mm higher. 

I do remember that it took repeated attempts to start it to bleed it last time.

Thanks Harvey, I got your latest and will read them now.

Any other ideas welcome, Alan.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Me again.

Finally got it bled and running, just a question of starting, running it till it's stops due to lack of water, letting it cool down and trying again after it has cooled down and waiting for it to pump the water up the outlet to the tank. 

It still sounds rough though, just not right. Then as it got dark I noticed a glow from under the van. Got down and looked under to find the first of the two boxes (silencers) on the exhaust glowing red hot. 

It never did that before so I turned it off pending further investigation. I guess it's not burning the fuel properly in the combustion chamber and it does sound as though the ignition is coming and going.

The box is mounted so that it can't damage anything. 

I will have to get the proper parts or find a service centre.

Thanks to all those who have helped or offered support, Alan.


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

Hi

Well done for taking it apart anyway! 

I have taken my 24v D5WS apart quite a few times, which didn't always point to a particular problem.

The small screws between the air intake chamber and the water heating cylinder are a little too soft, so be careful with them, and get some spares!

Mine has both seperate fuel and water pumps so may be different.

So that I wouldn't be in the position of needing a dealer reset I changed my controller to one that would tell me the fault code and allow me to reset it, so that has helped on many occasions.

It boils down to not burning correctly. That is either a problem with the air (too much or too little) or fuel (too much or too little).

So is the intake pipe entirely clear, the filter if you have one unblocked and unobstructed? Mine has some sort of insulation on the inside of the air inlet chamber which had come loose, and only when the fan was spinning a small bit of the insulation got sucked up and slowed the fan a little. I have managed to do the lid to the fan up too tight which also slightly obstructed it spinning.

Same with the exhaust, free and clear? If the combustion chamber was sooty maybe so is that? I took mine off and left a hose running through it for a while.

You may have found the check for fuel pump output? I did that, found it to be OK so looked elsewhere, only to later discover there was an air leak in the first fitting after the pump, so the correct amount of fuel was being delivered but with too much air for it to burn cleanly.

My fuel line is tiny and rigid, connected by fatter rubber sections of about 35mm long. Inside these splicing pieces the joints need to be fully butted home. A small gap creates air bubbles somehow. The rubber bits also degrade with time. I fixed one misfiring a while ago just by tightening the jubilee clips on these. Taking them off a few weeks later showed these to be cracked, and still letting some air in so all got replaced (2 sizes required).

I havn't always replaced the gaskets, only once on fact, one showed a little blow fixed by correct retightening. Same with the wire mesh around the glow plug, but it is supposed to be in a certain position (overlap downwards???).

Some I think have a system where the engine circuit is seperated from the camper circuit with a heat exchanger, but I'd imagine you can tell which header tank has no fluid in it?! As far as my struggles go, the water pump is next to useless without a full circuit. A big air pocket will just sit there. Could you extend the two pipes you took off the heater up to a few feet above the system pipes, and continually fill one and catch the return, pushing the air out yourself? Half inch copper could be used to splice? I don't think food grade is required here  When you're happy crimp as suggested above before reconnecting? I got a pair of hose clamps from Ebay, they are fab 

I also refilled up with pink coolant which seems to give off much more heat.

Isn't a high exhaust temp usually due to too lean a burn? Not enough O2 for the amount of fuel?

Once you've worn yourself out going round in circles trying to guess if the fuel and air is doing what it should it may end up being something electrical not doing what it should requiring a dealer. When I've decided what my next camper will be I'll be carrying an entire second unit, as its the same price as the spares bought seperately and then you have bits like the too soft screws, rubber hose and 5p bits you may not have thought of :roll:

I hope you can fix it!

Jason


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks Jason.

The one gasket I made was a lot thinner than the one which had come to bits. I could have tried making and using three or four but it was quite fiddly and I have no idea whether the gasket paper I scrounger was up to taking the heat anyway. I suspect not as it seemed to be just normal gasket paper.

Also the cracked part of the burner may have an effect.

Your thought about the exhaust is a good one. It has two silencer boxes on it. I wonder if they can clog. I may try shoving the hose up it and see. It might also explain the red hot silencer and erratic running. I think the grey/white smoke may have been a little coolant getting into the combustion chamber where there was a little blow in the gasket.

I intend buying a spare heater unit to carry with us as the van has no other means of space heating or heating water, Alan.


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

I don't think you should be able to shove something straight through the silencer? A sluice may not hurt though.

With mine, any hint of smoke is always white and smelling of unburnt fuel, even if it is just about running. You're not high up are you?

Good luck anyhow.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Not high up Jason no.

I shoved a hose up it and ran a lot of water through. A fair bit of filth came out. Then I blew it out with a little compressor. It still isn't right but I have no faith in the gasket I made and I am not sure it has bled from the heater up to the tank. It's bled down the inlet hose to the heater OK and the bleed screw on top of the heater gives air free coolant. On the up side it must depend on the heater pumping it up. The bleed nipple on the heat exchanger at the top of that pipe lets clean air free water out but the hoses don't feel full.

Smoke and unburnt fuel just about sums it up.

Cheers, Alan


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## mattt (Jul 16, 2011)

Alan,

I had problems with my heater D5 on same mh, it ended up being the flame tube which i think is the piece you say is cracked on yours. Mine gave an error code of F52 which was a failure to ignite. C J Collins in Doagh is the local dealer in NI and sorted it, they commented that the inlet pipe at some stage had sucked up a lot of crud, dont know how, had you yours running whilst driving? Since getting it back I have noticed quite a high pitched whine from the unit which I believe is the intake fan. I would be embarrassed to run it during the night or even if beside someone, would yours be that noisy? 
The bleeding took a while but once the heater was running I just went around the rads starting at the seats then back bedroom letting the gas out, 30 mins sorted it. Just keep an eye on the fluid level as it drops pretty quickly.
Flame tube is about £120 + vat I think.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes Matt, I reckon mine isn't igniting.

I have ordered a new one, should have it here in Spain on Monday. I will get the old one serviced and carry a spare as it's our only means of heating.

Our is quite noisy for maybe 15 or 20 minutes when starting up but not bad after that. I will compare it with the new one and let you know, Alan.


Edit: A point worth knowing about Hydronic heaters is that there are variants of the same model. The D5WSC I have comes in various guises depending on age. That difference is visible, external water pumps etc.

But they aslo vary as to the temperature they warm the water to. A D5WSC 25221905 heats the water to 80 degrees while a D5WSC 25239105 heats the water to 95 degrees. This may be important for anyone trying to buy a new one. I did not find any reference to this on any of the web sites I looked at, and I looked at plenty. I found out in conversation with a very helpful chap atAuto Electrical Solutions in Sunderland.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks for the advice and help everyone.

I fitted the new one today and it's running fine. Now to get the old one serviced so I have a spare. It's a bit of a weakness on our van that we only have one means of heating the accommodation and the water, but in constant use the old heater ran for almost four years. A spare might be a bit extravagant but I reckon I can get half the new price for it if we change the van.

I changed the controller so that the new heater works in exactly the same way as the old one did, there was a difference in the temperature they heated the water to. The old one was 80 degrees and the new one was 95 degrees, Alan.


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