# School Teachers



## cabby (May 14, 2005)

After watching the tv this morning, it reminded me of a discussion I had some years ago with a group of teachers in the Taxi.

I cannot comment on the standard of teaching, as I am led to believe that the majority of teachers are highly qualified in their subjects.

However in regards to pupils behaviour, I do wonder if the balance of Male and Female staff is of the right proportion.
Are there enough males in the infants group, should the junior schools have more males than Females, Or reverse.

Do we tend to concern ourselves with the child's welfare/feelings more than the education these days.

Basically I am asking where has the respect gone and why.

cabby


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Showing bad behaviour on TV will not have helped.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

The infant sector has always been primarily a female dominated sector - partly because the chances of promotion other than as a Deputy or Head are few and far between, there are virtually no "points for responsibility" in the infant or Junior sectors.

The Senior (11+) sector attracts many more such promotion points e.g. i/c PSME, exam entries & exam conduct, pastoral roles, outdoor education provision, even such mundane but highly stressful provision for staff absence through cover.....

I have one daughter who is a Deputy Head of an infant school - Hampshire's youngest ever, she does not want to become a Head as she has two school aged boys and wants to be able to spend time with them, she also correctly says, that once you take on the Headship role you lose any teaching chances and become a paperworker.....

I went through the senior (independent) sector and went through several career enhancements;; "O" level exam organisation, then Head of a Pastoral House, then organiser of the School's end of term Activities programme and the termly "Field Days" when EVERY child was out of school somewhere ( a requirement for the School CCF unit who visited service establishments). 

Those posts of responsibility meant that by the time that I retired I was on the edge of £40k c/w about £36k if I had not had those points..... my other daughter (a GP - started on about the same salary as me and now, after 10 years is on 3 times that for full time.....

So that is the reason why there is a dominance of females in the younger sectors - most males are looking for career progression and that is hard in the youngest parts of the system..... and generally (sorry for those with equal opportunities leanings), in very many families it has traditionally been the male that is the main breadwinner......


The respect for teachers went about the same time as the respect for the police, and much of that stems from when one Government tended to believe that ALL teachers were untrustworthy and "long haired lefties" and at the same time used the police to flat pack sectors of the public through oppressive and aggressive policing of union disputes.......

Dave


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## GAVLAD (Aug 10, 2014)

Banning smacking kids - a clip around the ear never did me any harm.
Becoming a nanny state - police seem powerless - the local Bobby used to be feared, now nobody bothers.
Everyone knows their rights - or reckon they do. They know the system. This is passed on to the younger generation.
Teachers daredn't do anything to a rowdy kid in class in fear that their parent or big brother will come down to school and threaten them or will threaten them with court action.
Most state schools can't expel a student now. If they want shut of a kid, that kid is transferred to a sister school who then goes through the same issues and they too have to transfer that kid onto another sister school.
Schools are grouped with other schools.
Only a private school or academy can truly expel a kid.
The kids know this.

one of the secondary schools I visited through my work has had £1000's spent on it.
It looks a really nice school from to the outsider.
The caretaker told me that the teachers were frightened of the students, as the students bring their older brothers in if the teacher gets strict. So the teachers don't bother and just shrug their shoulders.
They've had their toilets smashed to bits numerous times and no sooner are they repaired, they're smashed up again - even the ceiling tiles. 

Personally, I don't think it's a case of male/female teacher ratios, I think it's the society that we live in where kids answer back and don't have respect.


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

Once upon a time we brought children up to "be seen and not heard", to "do what I tell you, not what I do" and that "might is right".

Are those the qualities which you would want in today's modern world?

If not, then children have to be listened to, so that their opinions are seen as valid; they have to be given good role models, from adults who are not hypocritical; they need to be defended from violence from adults and older children.

So, as a retired teacher who got good exam results and managed to control most of my pupils for most of the time, I did not "insist on total silence with pupils treated as sponges, soaking up my words of wisdom"; I did not abuse nor ridicule other people, be they adult or child, I did not lie and I did not partake of recreational drugs (except alcohol in moderate amounts at appropriate times :laugh; I did not "clip round the ear" let alone use a cane.

Sadly, respect is something which many children fail to learn and some of that comes from parents who have been taught not to respect others, especially if their pay is low, be they police, teachers, paramedics, firemen etc. Mrs Thatcher famously said "there is no such thing as society" and she was one of the instigators of "we're here for ourselves" and "all that matters is money".

The male/female divide was always like that, as explained by Penguin (although clerical advances eg exam organisation are no longer jobs done by teachers). I do not think there are any quick fixes.

Gordon

PS 2 weeks ago I took my grandkids to a soft play area and observed a little thug, hitting others, restricting access to toys etc. When I politely and quietly asked him his name (so that I could speak to his parent), a woman descended on me complaining that I was abusing her child, who was a "little angel" and who "never upsets others". She complained to the management of the facility and I was approached by a lady who told me that I should deal with such events by talking to her, not by direct action. I said that I believed in a society where we are "all in it together" and if I saw bad behaviour then I would deal with it using techniques and experience from 5 decades of teaching: she said that if it happened again then I might be asked to leave! >


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Unfortunately that was the wrong answer then, for her that is.I totally agree with your comments H1-GBV.

Dave what can I say.

cabby


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## Tezmcd (Aug 3, 2009)

"be they police, teachers, paramedics, firemen etc."

really struggling with that statement - it names some professions that many genuinely low paid workers would love to aspire to


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

it may not make for pleasant understanding but it is true that those professions are sadly NOT valued by those i/c of deciding pay regimes - hence why recommendations from joint pay boards have been repeatedly ignored and extra costs heaped on the same professions.....

Police, paramedics and firemen(and women) are all shift workers on an hourly rate - that is FAR from generous......

It is only when you get to management levels that the pay structure starts to appear reasonable - by which time the person is no longer policing / driving ambulances / tackling fires

Teachers are NOT hourly paid, do have the supposedly "long" holidays - although the Head can require their presence in school if he requests it and that may not even be for teaching roles..... 

Yes, those may well be career aspirations for many, but the hourly rate for e.g. mechanics or plasterers is often much higher than those professions and of course, the emergency professions have to deal with the most traumatic episodes in life and death, imaginable (and note that does not include 3B on a Monday morning for double maths....). 

Dave


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

Tezmcd said:


> "be they police, teachers, paramedics, firemen etc."
> 
> really struggling with that statement - it names some professions that many genuinely low paid workers would love to aspire to


There's a man I meet
Walks up our street
He's a worker for the council
Has been twenty years
And he takes no lip off nobody
And litter off the gutter
Puts it in a bag
And never thinks to mutter
And he packs his lunch in a Sunblest bag
The children call him Bogie
He never lets on
But I know 'cause he once told me
He let me know a secret
About the money in his kitty
He's gonna buy a dinghy
Gonna call her Dignity

From Deacon Blue

Sadly, respect doesn't come easy to any low paid worker - Gordon


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## GAVLAD (Aug 10, 2014)

I'm a firefighter and I agree with you, the money is crap.


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## bob-in-dav (Aug 11, 2013)

I too was a teacher in a previous life and thoroughly enjoyed it for 38 years - starting and finishing in the same school.
I remember well the first parents evening when I saw a colleague talking about a little girl whose mother and grandmother were there and I had taught all three of them.
This brings me to a point from the original post about behaviour then and behaviour now and one that I have often pondered - we taught those earlier generations!
So, what did we done wrong for today's teachers to be confronted by parents (previously our pupils) who defend the thoroughly appalling behaviour of their offspring?
I will mention that "I know my rights" was and probably is thrust at teachers almost daily and used to irritate me in the extreme when it came out of the mouth of a 12 year old.
Mobile phones and the impotence of management in relation to these weapons simply astounds me - problems caused in school by the use and abuse of these technological wonders is massive - unless, of course, the head teacher has the balls to ban them completely and not take any crap from parents who whinge about them being needed for personal safety.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I was working in Teachers' Salaries and Pensions in the seventies. There was a severe shortage of teachers. We worked alongside the teacher recruitment section and I was asked, one day, to collect a new recruit from reception and deliver her for her interview with the recruitment board. I arrived in reception to find a woman dressed hippy style, with grime under her fingernails and smelling less than sweetly. She had a degree in Russian. No teaching qualification.
Having done my duty, I accosted the team leader, who interviewed said woman, later and asked how the interview had gone. I expected him to say she had been given short shrift not least because there were no Russian language lessons in the schools! "Well" he said, "she was upright and breathing so she got the job".


Along with the "selfish society" that encouraged parents to give their children whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted it, we had unqualified teachers of the calibre described above setting them an example. It was nigh on impossible to dismiss an inadequate teacher. Many of them, being ill qualified for the job, went on to retire through ill health.


Before those days, teachers were held in very high regard for the very difficult and demanding job that they do. Parents backed them to the hilt. If your parents found out that you had been in trouble at school you got in more trouble at home. Neighbours would police every one else's children and god forbid your parents ever discovered that neighbour intervention had been necessary!


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I am qualified to teach from age 11 upwards and currently teach (lecture) in a sixth form college in a very nice part of the world.

I came into the profession as a second career after my first one in private industry for 20 years. I retrained to teach Business Studies; secured my PGCE and then my MEd. I trained in 2 comps and then worked in one in Gloucester for 9 months maternity cover for my first post. I left there at the end of my contract and started my current job. I was offered the Head of Dept job back in the comp the following year when the incumbent retired however the current job is c.1m from home and, as I didn't want to build a career again and only wanted to teach, I turned it down. I have been with my current college c.7 years now (from memory).

To start with I hugely enjoyed it: hard work, demanding but rewarding. Some of my students over the years have kept in touch and they are very nice people too. However over the last few years I have become more and more disillusioned with the profession: local management but especially the young people.

To give you some context regarding dealing with young adults let me tell you here that I take no sh1t from any of them. I impress upon them the need to conform to societal requirements from day 1. My job is to help them become employable and equip them with skills to move on in life on their particular pathway - be that Uni, apprenticeship or a job. I run a strict classroom where if you approach my 'line' I growl at you; if you step over it, then I do more than growl. I have been physically threatened once which reported to the Police (as local management wavered) and the student was expelled. *Students enjoy my lessons and the relationship we have*; students also do very well and exceed their own expectations in many, many cases because in the war of attrition I win!

My disillusionment however comes about because of (and this is probably not an exhaustive list and doesn't relate to all students/parents/colleagues)...

- Students not caring
- Their parents not caring
- Weak attitudes in some colleagues
- Poor local management
- Students weakness in basic literacy and numeracy
- Students poor manners
- Students laziness: not willing to work outside of class; not willing to work in class; not willing to read
- Student punctuality; attendance; lack of readiness to learn
- Students deep, deep fascination with mobile phones (I operate a zero tolerance rule in my classes regarding mobiles. They are not even to be seen out on desks or I will confiscate them).
- Students thinking that the world owes them a living and that no doubt an employer will knock on their door offering them a world class career without them having to do anything about it

...as I say, not an exhaustive list and it *certainly does not apply to every student I meet*. Some are very nice individuals indeed.

The situation gets generally worse every year with each cohort.

As a result it has started to affect my health and has turned me into an insomniac. I am on the verge of leaving the profession which deeply saddens me. I love to teach and help young 'uns but I really struggle with the fact that I work harder and care more, than they do. I have not had a day off ill for over 3 years whilst colleagues around me have dropped like flies (some with very long absences due to ill health...and work induced too in some cases).

So I am looking for something else to do. I was going to retire at the end of next year anyway (at 50 :smile2 but am now thinking about doing it earlier. I just want some casual, hourly paid work that will allow me to make good use of my MH every other weekend and for extended trips throughout the year; plus spend quality time with my wife is not well herself (so I cannot afford to be ill!).

The solution to the problem is complex however I do think its tied into parental/home life; over use and reliance on technology ("they've got an App for that"); lack of appreciation of basic manners, punctuality and attendance; the wrong view of education by (successive) Governments; complex and confusing rules/regulations/bureaucracy; lack of basic rewards. Having worked at secondary level I think this is where it is mainly going wrong. *I do not blame colleagues in this sector at all*...I blame the system (many things have already been said in this thread regarding that).

All I know is that it wont be my problem soon.

Graham :smile2:


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

GMJ said:


> ...as I say, not an exhaustive list and it *certainly does not apply to every student I meet*. Some are very nice individuals indeed.
> 
> The situation gets generally worse every year with each cohort.


Interesting reading your list and it reminded me of the frustrations I felt before taking early retirement (then running CPD around the country, using MH as a means of transport with someone else paying for fuel & meals :laugh::laugh::laugh: Britstops provided a useful method for not even paying campsite fees but being able to claim expenses!).

However, I wish to add one (or is it two?) further "nails in the coffin" and that was "accountability" added to "league tables". Suddenly it became "my" responsibility for pupils to pass exams, rather than theirs. I've had kids say "you need to make sure I get a C or you'll be sacked": total rubbish but that is what the media has sold them. I started every Y10 (4th Form!) class with dictating in the front of their books "This department will NOT run revision lessons at any point: if I want to pass the exam then I need to do all of the work." When Easter came in Y11 I would get pupils, parents and senior managers requesting that we "do our bit" to ensure the school was not seen as "failing" and I told them to look at the front of the children's books: "amazingly", my department who all followed my lead on this, was actually the best performing department (by a long chalk) on 14 out of 15 years and we even got into The Times Top 100.

Sadly, government interference coupled with media stories of incompetence have reduced the likelihood of teachers exerting the controls upon which I was brought up, both as a child and as a professional. There were some rogue teachers and some pupils did not get as good an education as they ought, but on the whole, things worked well. Now many ex-colleagues take the line of least resistance, conform to dictat and see school as a job rather than a vocation.

Having said all of that, here in rural Norfolk the vast majority of kids are amenable and almost every one of my ex-pupils who I meet in local towns are polite and respectful, and are developing into mature adults and useful members of society :grin2: keep the faith - Gordon


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

H1-GBV said:


> ............... :laugh::laugh::laugh: Britstops provided a useful method for not even paying campsite fees but being able to claim expenses!).............. - Gordon


As any teacher will, I hope, be able to tell you expenses may be claimed only when you've incurred an expense.

You may quite honestly claim an allowance even if you haven't incurred an expense.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Isn't it sad that so many "former" or "ex-" teachers are singing from the same hymn sheet and describing EXACTLY the same problems in different parts of the UK......

League tables and "you must ensure that my son/daughter gets a grade A* in every subject" has become the norm....

in the same way that if there is an accident (and not just in school) it is more a case of "reach for the lawyer" so that I can shift the blame onto someone else.......

Students, and their parents, no longer recognise that however much excellent teaching is available, unless the student LEARNS it then it is all to no avail...... their ideal would be if the TEACHER did the exam for the child so that the child had to do the absolute minimum and so that they (the child) could spend all day on social media - tweeting, instagramming, FaceBooking and so on - and the growth of these things reflects their increasing use by the young - even during school time....

I also had a mobile phone free lab. - if I found a child with a phone on, I dismantled it and gave the kit of parts (i.e. battery out) to the Deputy Head --who was always VERY slow at returning it...... but even that was not allowed as "they must have their phone in case they need to contact Mum/Dad if there is a problem".......

I left at aged 60 as I was becoming increasingly frustrated at the dumbing down of my subject as well as the way education was heading with the said exam results, league tables, performance grades, report grades, effort grades, mid-term grades, assessment grades and so on.....

When the A level biology course had NOTHING about the brain and the GCSE Science course had NOTHING about the heart I realised that the writing was on the wall...... How Science Works was worth 40% of the A level grade, data analysis another 40% and so the subject content was ONLY worth 20% of the final A level grade...... Excellent so these students k new why shampoo adverts could not be trusted, or how drugs are approved, but might know NOTHING about anatomy and physiology - and 6 weeks later these may be student Doctors........

Worrying, very worrying....... and the students ultimately are the losers from Governmental "influence".....

Dave


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Look on the bright side - the wages of sewage workers are always crap!


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Fortunately I have managed to engineer myself into a position over the last few years where I only teach BTEC National Level 3 assessed coursework courses, with no exams. This is in the process of changing so exams will be introduced shortly (the new spec is out but we are not obliged to switch straight away).

Therefore I am largely exempt from the exam pressure and I WILL NOT be pressurised into marking up students coursework to get them a Distinction rather than a Merit or indeed a Pass. I operate STRICT deadline management with published deadlines (date and time) and allow 1 resubmission as per the examining boards..again date and time managed. If students fail I issue a course failure warning letter to their parents who are free then to meet/speak with me. Some manage an email, most don't. Students then have a resit chance at the end of May. If they still do not conform they fail. Period.

I choose to teach this qualification as I firmly believe that it affords a good number of students a better chance of getting themselves equipped for the workplace should they attend/listen/work etc. I am able to instil the values of the workplace, industry standards and work ethic. Again, there needs to be something to work with though.

I also felt subjected to this notion when teaching examined subjects that if the students didn't get a grade that they felt life owed them, or if they didn't turn up to college and if they didn't do their homework...then somehow this was my fault!

Graham :serious:


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Since when did schoolchildren become "students"?

Children go to school, students study (or not as the case may be).


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

pippin said:


> Since when did schoolchildren become "students"?
> 
> Children go to school, students study (or not as the case may be).


I work at a 6th Form College, hence students (and I am a lecturer).

I teach 16-19 year olds but have one lad this year who is 20! Bless him he has had a tough life as he suffers with cerebral palsy but I managed to get the college to admit him even though we don't get funding for him. He is one of the most resolute, stoical people I have had the pleasure of meeting :grin2:

Graham :smile2:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

GMJ said:


> Fortunately I have managed to engineer myself into a position over the last few years where I only teach BTEC National Level 3 assessed coursework courses, with no exams. This is in the process of changing so exams will be introduced shortly (the new spec is out but we are not obliged to switch straight away).
> 
> Therefore I am largely exempt from the exam pressure and I WILL NOT be pressurised into marking up students coursework to get them a Distinction rather than a Merit or indeed a Pass. I operate STRICT deadline management with published deadlines (date and time) and allow 1 resubmission as per the examining boards..again date and time managed. If students fail I issue a course failure warning letter to their parents who are free then to meet/speak with me. Some manage an email, most don't. Students then have a resit chance at the end of May. If they still do not conform they fail. Period.
> 
> ...


It's a pity you felt the need to use the jargon of your trade when addressing outsiders. I have only the vaguest idea of what you are talking about and certainly don't understand enough of it to grasp any points you might be trying to make.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Such terminology is one of the difficulties faced in the teaching profession...

if you call all children that go to a school "schoolchildren" then the oldest ones are often resentful as they are of the same age as those that have completed their secondary education and moved into tertiary - where they are referred to as "students".

If you use the older term "pupils" then the resentment goes even deeper....

Students are those people that are studying - whether they are 16 or 61 - they are still classed as students - the only thing they must be doing is studying.......

So IMO to use the term "students" simply describes all those studying, "schoolchildren" tends to suggest a younger age group now as the English language gradually progresses - and none of us is immune to such progression howver much we may wish to hold it back......

But, does it actually make any difference what we call those who attend school or sixth form college, or college of further education?

Dave


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

erneboy said:


> It's a pity you felt the need to use the jargon of your trade when addressing outsiders. I have only the vaguest idea of what you are talking about and certainly don't understand enough of it to grasp any points you might be trying to make.


I wouldn't worry about it...its mostly bollix

Graham


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Point taken Graham but in my day a student was someone who went to a tertiary college/uni.

I was still called a schoolboy, even in Upper VI!!

And it was shorts until the V form, long trousers in the Sixth.

Oh - have times changed?!

When I compare the O & A levels that I sat - well, no comparison to those of today.

Some would say that the old methods were not right and that now the methods are right.

I certainly do not think that a single moment of my schooling was wasted on me, or even by me.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

GMJ said:


> I wouldn't worry about it...its mostly bollix
> 
> Graham


Your candour is admirable.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

pippin said:


> When I compare the O & A levels that I sat - well, no comparison to those of today..


I know exactly what you mean....

when I retired at the end of the summer term 2011 I was asked to organise the display for the Biology Department for the Open Evening and I asked if I could compare the way biology was taught in the early 1970's and the way it was taught in 2011......

The event was an outstanding success - we had O and A level papers through the years from 1970 to the 2011 papers (GCSE and A2 of course) - MANY of the parents of the young people in the school had actually sat those papers years ago - and they remembered them.....

The current students could not answer the early papers as they required factual knowledge - not taught in 2011 and the older students (from the 70's and 80's) could not answer the current ones - even though some are now highly qualified professionals in biology related careers - as they required data analysis and knowledge of How Science Works - way beyond their comprehension.....

Most interesting was the practical skills such as dogfish dissection and microscope slide preparation and drawing - common skills from the early years but totally untaught now "fr fear of putting people off from doing biology".

We struggled to get the students AND their parents OUT of the lab. when it was time to close up - there was nearly 100 people taking part in the activities in the room - rarely has such a subject shown such a level of interest and enthusiasm......

So, I left the School on a real high, but sad that the subject that I love so dearly is now so dumbed down and the clock can never be turned back.

Are today's students better equipped for society? IMO no, they do not KNOW so much but they do KNOW HOW TO FIND answers - and of course, many trust the internet implicitly.......








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perhaps sums it up nicely......

Dave


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

erneboy said:


> As any teacher will, I hope, be able to tell you expenses may be claimed only when you've incurred an expense.
> 
> You may quite honestly claim an allowance even if you haven't incurred an expense.


One of the companies for which I worked was happy to pay expenses of up to £150 per night for hotel, dinner (including alcohol :grin2 and breakfast. This could be claimed either by submitting invoices from the hotel or by getting the company to book it. If the cost came to less than £150, no "extra" was paid (amazingly, that never happened > )

However, they would not pay even £10 for a campsite, although they would refund invoices showing meals excluding alcohol :frown2:.

So stopping at a pub-type Britstops enabled me to claim the EXPENSE of a meal - Gordon

IF you want to be pedantic (very appropriate in a thread about teachers), I was paid an ALLOWANCE of 45p per mile, which exceeded the EXPENSE incurred (including tax, insurance, wear & tear) but was in line with HMRC guidance, so there was no implication of making a profit or improper activity.


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## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

I remember Cambridge School Certificate Biology Practical 1962 {O Levels) exceedingly well. It is indelibly etched in my psyche - dissecting, laying out and labelling the mouthparts of a locust well pickled in chloroform. Locusts ... my absolute worst paranoid fear!! Worse even than the white rat we dissected in class. I still love human anatomy though and can remember the name of every bone in the body!


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes Graham, I want to be pedantic because it's a thread about teachers. Expenses and allowances are different things and appreciating the difference should matter to anybody who had to claim either.

Your preference for Britstops is understandable, but if it is outside the rules of the scheme you were presented with then it's not open to you to bend those rules no matter how convenient it might be

Isn't it a bit like your "students" wanting the right grades without fulfilling the requirements? You've made it clear that you won't help them with rule bending. Pots and kettles?


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

erneboy said:


> Yes Graham, I want to be pedantic because it's a thread about teachers. Expenses and allowances are different things and appreciating the difference should matter to anybody who had to claim either.
> 
> Your preference for Britstops is understandable, but if it is outside the rules of the scheme you were presented with then it's not open to you to bend those rules no matter how convenient it might be
> 
> Isn't it a bit like your "students" wanting the right grades without fulfilling the requirements? You've made it clear that you won't help them with rule bending. Pots and kettles?


Not wishing to be too pedantic, but it was I, Gordon, who wrote about expenses & allowances. :crying:
I also didn't write specifically about getting the grades without fulfilling the requirements, although that is something I always worked within. :crying::crying:

To clarify the Britstops position: I stayed on pub carparks free of charge, with no obligation (via the scheme) to purchase anything. I did, however, purchase a meal which qualified as an acceptable expense. No rules being bent IMO. - Gordon

[If you want the total story, I took my wife with me on all of my "MH" trips but only claimed for half of the meal bill, although usually there was no indication that two meals had been taken. Perhaps honesty and integrity is too inbuilt in my psyche? :wink2:]


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## mgdavid (Nov 27, 2014)

H1-GBV said:


> Not wishing to be too pedantic, but it was I, Gordon, who wrote about expenses & allowances. :crying:...............]


I realise that in post 20 erneboy confessed to a remarkable deficiency in comprehension of our language, but I did think he might at least have made the effort to target the correct name when having a dig at somebody > :grin2:


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## mgdavid (Nov 27, 2014)

pippin said:


> Since when did schoolchildren become "students"?
> 
> Children go to school, students study (or not as the case may be).


'Students' is so last-century - aren't they called 'learners' nowadays?
Another execrable example of Newspeak!


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

erneboy said:


> Yes Graham, I want to be pedantic because it's a thread about teachers. Expenses and allowances are different things and appreciating the difference should matter to anybody who had to claim either.
> 
> Your preference for Britstops is understandable, but if it is outside the rules of the scheme you were presented with then it's not open to you to bend those rules no matter how convenient it might be
> 
> Isn't it a bit like your "students" wanting the right grades without fulfilling the requirements? You've made it clear that you won't help them with rule bending. Pots and kettles?


You've messed this up now haven't you Erneboy? >

Graham :grin2:


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

"Learners"? Get real!

Surely they are now "Education Service Users"!!!!


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

pippin said:


> "Learners"? Get real!
> 
> Surely they are now "Education Service Users"!!!!


or as many of us would say;

"Education Service *NON-*Users"!!! >

Dave


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Clients?


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I blame the parents > >


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

mgdavid said:


> I realise that in post 20 erneboy confessed to a remarkable deficiency in comprehension of our language, but I did think he might at least have made the effort to target the correct name when having a dig at somebody > :grin2:


Not having made post number 20 I obviously haven't confessed to anything.

Though I do see that I have been confusing Gordon and Graham and I willingly apologise for that.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

I blame the system - that starts at the top with HMG and spreads down through many layers including league tables, parent expectations and the parents assumption that teachers can make silk purses out of sows ears,,,,,,,

Sadly, IMO the three level system of education that I went through with secondary modern, technical and grammar schools worked very well EXCEPT there were massive inequalities of finance with grammar schools receiving often five times the per capita sum that secondary schools received.....

So that system was discarded rather than being equalised and we went to a "one size fits all" comprehensive system where the most able were not stretched and the least were not supported.......

The failure of that system stemmed from the judgmental 11+ exam which condemned some students to a lower level of education with little chance of gaining a higher standard.... streaming and the like has continued to be banned and no longer is competition regarded as healthy - which of course has also resulted in less competitive sport being available since schools were encouraged to sell off their playing fields for development......

sadly, I don't think any of these negative changes can, or will ever be reversed.......

Teachers are now making the best of a bad job and while it would be wrong for the workman to blame his tools, in the case of teaching too many "advances" have been made such as the dependence on calculators and computers and now tablets.......

What sort of society are these current day students going to "well adapted" for? Certainly not manual or technical work...... although they are all now being taught to think for themselves - which is not bad, they have lost the concept of following what you are told to do.......

Hence why the armed forces have to instill such a concept as part of the intial training - as it is not there after school.....

Dave


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

erneboy said:


> ...I have been confusing Gordon and Graham and I willingly apologise for that.


None taken :smile2:

Gord...sorry....Graham :smile2:


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

Penquin said:


> So that system was discarded rather than being equalised and we went to a "one size fits all" comprehensive system where the most able were not stretched and the least were not supported.......
> 
> The failure of that system stemmed from the judgmental 11+ exam which condemned some students to a lower level of education with little chance of gaining a higher standard.... streaming and the like has continued to be banned and no longer is competition regarded as healthy - which of course has also resulted in less competitive sport being available since schools were encouraged to sell off their playing fields for development......
> 
> Dave


Whilst I have agreed with many of your comments, I cannot allow these to go unchallenged. They may be true in some areas of the country, but not in any of the schools where I have worked nor in the local schools here in Norfolk, of which I have quite good knowledge.

I had pupils every year, assessed on whatever scheme was current, who were placed in "low" streams (WE had them) but who understood and could apply scientific principles much better than pupils in "high" streams. As you will be aware, the 11+ exam results had to be adapted to produce approximately equal numbers of boys & girls, because crude test marks put girls ahead :frown2:: KS2 SATs results did not show any appreciation of the innate gender-related differences and Science (Physics in particular) was one area where this was quite significant. At one point I accused KS2 teacher assessments of being closely correlated to an ability to write neatly and colour pretty pictures.

JARGON: Ignore this if you want! [I regularly had pupils completing Lower School and being placed in CSE groups who I was able to promote to OLevel groups because I insisted on writing Mode3 courses which mirrored the content of the higher qualification (apologies to the non-educational jargon speakers: suffice it to say that I was adopting the system to ensure late developers could be given access to high-grade exams without allowing weaker pupils to flounder.)]

Traditional wisdom might allow folk to think that being in set2 would encourage youngsters to work hard to be promoted to set1. In fact, it often had the opposite effect, with several telling me that "if I'm not good enough, there's no point in trying". *Competition is not always healthy!*

Despite lots of adverse pressure, I often had 3 parallel top sets (clearly with a much broader ability range) and everyone was told that they were aiming for GradeA/A*: only their lack of effort (we never mentioned lack of ability :wink2 could prevent them achieving that goal. That is one of the reasons that we obtained the good results: *no lack of stretch!*

When GCSE was introduced (and I'd jumped the gun by using 16+ courses as soon as they were validated), I chose, again, to select courses which linked to A level where possible but also to run courses with very practical and vocational foundations whilst still permitting transfers for the first term (in case pupils or teachers had made the wrong choices). For many very weak pupils, Science was the only GCSE they obtained (and for some it was the only one they were entered for). *No lack of support!*

Students (as we called them in Sixth Form) regularly achieved the highest grades at Alevel and were entered for Physics Olympiads whenever appropriate, with a moderate degree of success. Similar procedures occurred in other Sciences.

All of this was in an "ordinary" rural comprehensive school. The first thing I was told when I started the job was that rural kids have no ambition: they know they will never go hungry as they can pop into a field at night and help themselves to vegetables and do a bit of poaching for meat >.

*SORRY* that this has deviated from Cabby's original question about M/F mix at Primary Level (but it's not as bad as expenses/allowances :wink2 - Gordon


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Thanks for that, I don't disagree with anything you said - I was teaching O level before the combined O level and CS came along and then the GCSE (Great Conservative Sham Exam).

Mode 3 was useful in that it did allow you to design a course that was better suited to the students - I don't think such things are allowed now?

We always stressed motivation not ability and I totally agree with you there - I was in a school with streamed GCSE science courses - the top 3 sets did the 3 separate sciences, the other the combined double award science and I always asked for, and was allowed, the lowest set of the lot based on their previous scores in years 7, 8 and of course, 9. I loved teaching them and they responded brilliantly - several went on to Uni to do biology and even more went into Medicine - not bad for supposedly "low achievers". I only had ONE student get a grade D (below the previously accepted "pass" standard) in 15 years...... so it shows how positively these late developers CAN respond.

I went back to my old "grammar" school in Bromley to find that one of their most over-subscribed courses was in agriculture..... and the students who gained the GCSE and the A level invariably walked into good University courses and good farming jobs afterwards - they were the sort of youngsters who would probably have benefited from the practical education that could be made available if the wish was there....

Schools have changed, and not always for the better as can be seen if you give a youngster a simple mental arithmetic task such as adding up the cost f a few items - they immediately reach for the calculator..... or ask them to write a letter and many people would be appalled at the result - because such things are deemed not important.....

Dave


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## buxom (Mar 20, 2008)

I see both sides of the argument however I also think because of the nannystate that hands are tied behind the backs of those often in the front line and because of this all discipline and respect tends to go out the window. Tough love certainly worked with us when we were kids but unfortunatlely the dogooders are in charge.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Knocking "The Do gooders" will always get brownie points. I could provide a list of those who would like any comment of that sort then you'd know who will thank you.

You can also get points for dissing lefties, yoghurt knitters, tree huggers, liberals, guardian readers and a whole plethora of other similar terms.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Seems that Masters will be a thing of the past now as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35659685


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

That looks like another step too far. It's about time sensible people resisted. 

Do Americans really think that the term Master as used to describe a post in academia originates in slavery? Well maybe they do, I mean they seem to find that oaf Trump credible and if they can buy that idiot then surely they can buy anything.


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