# Vehicle docs - originals or copies, which are best to take.



## Remus (Feb 10, 2011)

We intend to travel through France and Spain later this year. As regards vehicle documents, insurance, MOT etc, is it best to take the originals or would copies be safer (and acceptable to any authorities who needed to see them)?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Both I think. I may be wrong but I think you are required to produce, if asked to, originals. Copies just save time if some official wants a copy but I don't think they suffice as proof of anything in the first place. Anyway surely you would carry all your originals except possibly your V5, so why not add that and bingo?

Which documents were you thinking of leaving at home? Alan.


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## jedi (Nov 22, 2007)

Hi,

I take originals (kept in the safe) and leave photocopies with a neighbour back home. Not sure photocopies would be acceptable.

Jed


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## Littlebt (May 19, 2012)

*Vehicle Docs*

Copies done correctly front and back on a decent copier and you can't tell the difference,having said that the Authorities Police et al are unlikely to be that difficult with what might be termed "normal people" when you see what and who are on the roads of mainland EU!


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

I am pretty sure that by law, you need the originals.
We take both.
When I was trucking, we always had the originals and I doubt the Companies would have given them to drivers if they did not have to.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Have both originals and copies....

you are not likely to be asked for them if you are reasonably careful and a copy can be given if required when the original is shown..

you need V5, insurance full policy not just certificate, MoT if required, and your driving licence plus photo-id if you have one, foreign travel insurance, EHIC cards....

take the lot, keep them secure, we also used to scan them and then send as an attachment to ourselves so that if needed (e.g. if the vehicle has been destroyed by fire or stolen  ) you can gain access to your e-mails and print off a copy to prove that you are correct in what you are saying.

If you take everything you will probably need none of them, if you forget one that is bound to be the one that you need.... :? 

Hopefully this will be a complete waste of time - we have never been asked to produce any of them in spite of having been driving in France for 40+ years (mainly as holidays for the first 39).  8O  

Dave


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Penquin said:


> Have both originals and copies....
> 
> Hopefully this will be a complete waste of time - we have never been asked to produce any of them in spite of having been driving in France for 40+ years (mainly as holidays for the first 39).  8O
> 
> Dave


 In my trucking days, I was checked at a control point in France on nearly every trip.
My vehicle was showing the orange dangerous goods plate and it was like a red rag to a bull for the French plods :lol: 
Luckily, everything was in order on the vast majority of tugs 
Always be polite if you get a pull, even if you know the plod is wrong.
It will pay dividends.


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## blackbirdbiker (Mar 12, 2007)

We were pulled over and had ours checked 2011 in Ypres Belguim, they were good copies of the original. The officer inspected them and said ok, stopped the traffic for us to pull out and off we went. :wink: 

Keith


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

Yep both.....colour copies and only show them to the Police and unless they ask the originals stay hidden.


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

always take originals - in the safe - when travelling abroad; especially the paper driving licences.


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## Littlebt (May 19, 2012)

*Docs*

I have to say we too have never had to produce in over 30 years, but Penguin is absolutely correct and is " belt and braces" proof, brilliant.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

French drivers are required to have their original Carte Grise (log book) in the car.
I do keep copies "In the cloud" but after so long have now forgotten my access code.
So yes Dave, an attachment to an obscure e-mail address would work.

Now this thread has reminded me, have just done all the latest cards, permits and ID docs saved to PC and sent via e-mail.

Ray.


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## blondel (Jun 12, 2005)

We carry the original, leaving a copy at home - there is also a copy on the laptop and the kindle - hopefully belt and braces,


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## jedi (Nov 22, 2007)

I like the idea of scanning and keeping on lap-top but does this not mean that the hard drive will forever contain information that may be very useful for people for the purpose of identity theft?

Recently scanned my passport and the thought occurred to me that one day this lap-top will have to go - the answer of course will be to destroy the hard drive.

If you save to a memory stick is a copy still kept on the hard drive?

Jed


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

jedi said:


> I like the idea of scanning and keeping on lap-top but does this not mean that the hard drive will forever contain information that may be very useful for people for the purpose of identity theft?
> 
> Recently scanned my passport and the thought occurred to me that one day this lap-top will have to go - the answer of course will be to destroy the hard drive.
> 
> ...


There is plenty of software which will properly delete any file permanently, but a full format the hard drive would get rid of most stuff anyway, then to be sure fill the hard drive with music files, re format, all will be gone.


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## blondel (Jun 12, 2005)

jedi said:


> I like the idea of scanning and keeping on lap-top but does this not mean that the hard drive will forever contain information that may be very useful for people for the purpose of identity theft?
> 
> Recently scanned my passport and the thought occurred to me that one day this lap-top will have to go - the answer of course will be to destroy the hard drive.
> 
> ...


Yes. The last pc we got rid of we removed the hard drive and had fun with a big hammer :lol:

There are so many things you now have to produce documents such as the V5 for ( sticker for German cities, tunnel pass - which is why I scanned it in the first place)

I am more likely to loose a memory stick  
If laptop, Kindle is stolen I agree they have our identity. 8O


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

I never sell my old pc, s/h value isn't much anyway, and I always drill and smash up the hard drive.
Not worth the risk


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

If you send it as e-mail attachment it will stay on the e-mail provider's server till needed so no problem with it being in laptop etc.

I was unaware that, as Dave(penquin) posted, it was a requirement to carry the insurance policy - is that only France and/or only for French reg vehicles?

I had always assumed that for the majority of countries which only require Third Party cover that the Certificate would suffice as evidence of that cover, just as a Green Card does outside the EU.

Do any countries require a translation of the Certificate? Italy does for boats and insures print the Italian version on the reverse of certificates.

Geoff


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> If you send it as e-mail attachment it will stay on the e-mail provider's server till needed so no problem with it being in laptop etc.
> 
> I was unaware that, as Dave(penquin) posted, it was a requirement to carry the insurance policy - is that only France and/or only for French reg vehicles?
> 
> ...


Every insurance certificate that I have had for quite a few years has had at least four translations on the rear side.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Grath said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> > If you send it as e-mail attachment it will stay on the e-mail provider's server till needed so no problem with it being in laptop etc.
> ...


Grath my Safeguard/Allianz one does not have any translation - I checked before posting previous post.

Geoff


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> Grath said:
> 
> 
> > nicholsong said:
> ...


In that case, why don't you ask them to supply translations. I would think that would be good practice anyway.
Could save later problems.
Since green cards finished for Europe, I have always had a translation and I would suggest a green card for non EU Countries.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Grath said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> > Grath said:
> ...


Grath

Unless it is a legal requirement I suspect they would want to charge per translation and there are 24 languages in EU alone:roll:

Even last 24 months' travelling I would have needed French, Dutch, German, Polish and Slovakian. (4 just to get to Dover)

Geoff


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> Grath said:
> 
> 
> > nicholsong said:
> ...


Your choice Geoff.
I am just saying what I would do. I am not saying you must!
It could save you possible future problems.
Just do what you are happy with!


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I am happy with being legal - so awaiting for the answers on those points.

Geoff


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## Zozzer (Aug 13, 2006)

We take the originals vehicle, along with scanned copies, and scanned copies of all other essential travel documents on a micro SD card.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

What the AA say...

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/general_advice.html

I have always understood that you risk having your vehicle impounded until your produce the _original _documents if you don't have them with you.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Stanner said:


> What the AA say...
> 
> http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/general_advice.html
> 
> I have always understood that you risk having your vehicle impounded until your produce the _original _documents if you don't have them with you.


I note Stanner's link to the AA list of documents does not include VED (Tx Disc) nor MOT Certificate.

Geoff

P.S I have e-mailed AA on this point.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

The problem with not taking everything and more is that each different Policeman in every Country can and will interoperate every detail a little different, and although you may or may not need a certain document in the eyes of the law in one Country, it may be different in another.
Speaking as one who has had the pleasure of an exceptional amount of control checks (when I was delivering Dangerous Goods), it is better to have too much, than not enough.
A person may be 100% legal and know they are, but if the Policeman disagrees, you probably will get a fine or at best you will be involved in some lengthy discussion.
Been there, done that, got the T shirt and on one occasion, I was discussing, to put it mildly for nearly two hours.
In the end, the French plod and I agreed to a compromise.
The details were, that my vehicle had DG orange plates up and showing,because I had empty, but unclean tanks. The plod was trying to say that the vehicle should not have the orange plates showing.
Little did he know that empty tanks full of gas are more dangerous than full tanks!
In the end we agreed to put a cross through the plates, but after a few miles, I removed the cross.
But does a person really want to be in that position, just for a few documents?
I know I don't!


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## tony_g (Sep 13, 2010)

jedi said:


> I like the idea of scanning and keeping on lap-top but does this not mean that the hard drive will forever contain information that may be very useful for people for the purpose of identity theft?
> 
> Recently scanned my passport and the thought occurred to me that one day this lap-top will have to go - the answer of course will be to destroy the hard drive.
> 
> ...


No, not if the file was never saved to the resident drive in the first place. Might be residually in a cache but surely flushed or over written by subsequent activity. Mind you, when the laptop is 'retired' a hammer or vice applied to the hard drive is a sensible precaution. We have our docs printedout as copies including double sided colour V5c while awaiting new one following up-plating. Have just been to local dvla to get a temporary reg certificate which I hope will be acceptable for Morocco. Also, we have copies on the laptop, PC at home, memory stick and cloud drive!
Btw, when do you hit Maroc?


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## tony_g (Sep 13, 2010)

jedi said:


> I like the idea of scanning and keeping on lap-top but does this not mean that the hard drive will forever contain information that may be very useful for people for the purpose of identity theft?
> 
> Recently scanned my passport and the thought occurred to me that one day this lap-top will have to go - the answer of course will be to destroy the hard drive.
> 
> ...


No, not if the file was never saved to the resident drive in the first place. Might be residually in a cache but surely flushed or over written by subsequent activity. Mind you, when the laptop is 'retired' a hammer or vice applied to the hard drive is a sensible precaution. We have our docs printedout as copies including double sided colour V5c while awaiting new one following up-plating. Have just been to local dvla to get a temporary reg certificate which I hope will be acceptable for Morocco. Also, we have copies on the laptop, PC at home, memory stick and cloud drive!
Btw, when do you hit Maroc?


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

As to orginal or copies? All the docs I am taking apart from the V5. Are copies anyway. MOT comes off a bog standard printer in the garage, all ins. docs. including the certificate are printed by me from PDFs that were emailed.

I can't see any way Plod would be able to tell whether they were copies or not.  

Dick


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Glandwr said:


> As to orginal or copies? All the docs I am taking apart from the V5. Are copies anyway. MOT comes off a bog standard printer in the garage, all ins. docs. including the certificate are printed by me from PDFs that were emailed.
> 
> I can't see any way Plod would be able to tell whether they were copies or not.
> 
> Dick


Dick

You are obviously correct about taking the original V5C.

Your point about the MOT being printed off but the original does have an original signature on it so a copy could be challenged.

My insurers, Safeguard/Allian, do issue a paper Certificate. Did you not get one? Maybe some insurers have ceased to do so, but I would be surprised, as there are a lot of people without computers and/or printers.

For people who never go outside the UK none of this is a problem because the Police, VOSA etc have access to the DVLA and insurance databases and probably would not rely on a paper copy, which could easily be forged.

In other jurisdictions where it is mandatory to produce originals and where there is no roadside link to DVLA etc. it might raise difficulties.

Just some thoughts Dick.

Geoff


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

http://www.insuranceguardian.co.uk/advice/where-is-my-insurance-certificate


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

nicholsong said:


> Maybe some insurers have ceased to do so, but I would be surprised,


Some now give you the choice of either or both.

It is now not unusual to not have any hard copy paperworkat all from an insurer. Indeed some charge an "admin fee" to supply it, as there is clearly an extra cost involved for them.


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

nicholsong said:


> Glandwr said:
> 
> 
> > As to orginal or copies? All the docs I am taking apart from the V5. Are copies anyway. MOT comes off a bog standard printer in the garage, all ins. docs. including the certificate are printed by me from PDFs that were emailed.
> ...


I've insured the car with Swift for a number of years. They don't give you the choice, the only way to get documentation is via a PDF. This year changed the van to Aviva. they gave me the choice. I took it as I know that it will be available to me whereever I am for it's duration if I can get to a computer.

As to the MOT I take the point about the signature. I have two sets of documents (one hidden in van) my MOT is signed in black biro and short of a forensic scientist I would challenge anyone to tell the difference.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Alan, Stanner and Dick

Thanks for informative replies.

The problem for those of us driving on the Continent is that the Law and practice in the UK seems to be out of kilter with the legislation and technology in many other countries.

While this is so I prefer to carry the originals, at least on the Continent. I never did in the UK.

I think I remember Police advice not to carry the V5C in case of theft of the vehicle. Maybe this advice has changed.

Geoff


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

Biggest writting on the V5 today Geoff is "THIS DOCUMENT DOES NOT PROVE OWNERSHIP". The implication being that it's previous definitive role has gone.  . I suspect that it is the UK keeping up with practice and the rest of Europe falling behind with technology 

Dick


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

Glandwr said:


> Biggest writting on the V5 today Geoff is "THIS DOCUMENT DOES NOT PROVE OWNERSHIP". The implication being that it's previous definitive role has gone.  . I suspect that it is the UK keeping up with practice and the rest of Europe falling behind with technology
> 
> Dick


That's because the "V5 shows the "Registered Keeper", who may in some cases not be the legal owner: Company cars are owned by the Company not the drive.
Additionally, very often Companies, and sometimes individuals, use leasing or hire purchase arrangements, in which case the Leasor or Financial institution may be the actual legal owner.

Certainly here in Spain, you officially are definitely required to show the originals of all and any required vehicle documents (V5, insurance certificate, MOT certificate), and driver documents (both parts of driving licence, and passport) on the spot if required.

Whether or not the actual Guardia officer who pulls you over/inspects you at a checkpoint, will in practice accept photocopies of any of those Brit documents is a gamble. They do have very big, very real, guns.


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

TheNomad said:


> Glandwr said:
> 
> 
> > Biggest writting on the V5 today Geoff is "THIS DOCUMENT DOES NOT PROVE OWNERSHIP". The implication being that it's previous definitive role has gone.  . I suspect that it is the UK keeping up with practice and the rest of Europe falling behind with technology
> ...


So what do you suppose is the situation when like me there are no definitive originals for any documentation other than the V5?

Dick


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

TheNomad said:


> Glandwr said:
> 
> 
> > Biggest writting on the V5 today Geoff is "THIS DOCUMENT DOES NOT PROVE OWNERSHIP". The implication being that it's previous definitive role has gone.  . I suspect that it is the UK keeping up with practice and the rest of Europe falling behind with technology
> ...


So when a Spanish policeman is checking a V5C, what is he checking for? It cannot be ownership, because we all agree the V5C does not confirm that.

Is he checking it is registered to the driver - if so why? There is no legal requirement, at least in the UK, for the driver to be the 'Registered Keeper' otherwise wives, sons and daughters could not drive 'Dad's' vehicle.

Geoff


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