# That 5th Gear Again



## Lindsay

Hi all,
My 1999 Fiat Ducato 2.8 idtd has recently aquired the '5th gear syndrome', with a bit of a twist! 
As with most, it started dropping out of 5th when under load, with no prior signs or warnings.
Simple fix I thought, if a bit expensive, but had to get it sorted!
I had 5th gear replaced, by a Fiat garage (gear set, synchro., selector fork and fixings), but it was still dropping out of gear!! They informed me that the gearbox would have to come out, so..... as many others have done in the past, I 'limped' home in 4th.!!
Has anyone else experienced this, or could anyone give me an idea of what the problem is likely to be *inside* the box. 
I have had 5th gear checked again, and everything seems to be in order!!
Any concrete advice, or ideas, would be greatly appreciated, as I'm due to take it to a local gearbox specialist on Tuesday. 
Many thanks
Lindsay


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## Kev1

Gawd
Hope mine doesn't start doing that!!!!!
Sorry didn't intend to sound selfish.


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## denisl

I'm certainly no expert, but I would have thought that if the selctor and gears themslves are ok, then it must down to adjustment of the linkage. 
I don't know if anything else in the gearbox can cause a gear to jump out.


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## Lindsay

Thanks Kev1, I'll take that as a vote of 'sympathy', not selfishness!!
Also, I appreciate your contribution, denisl, but all linkages have also been checked and found to be OK! So basically everything inside the 5th gear cover looks to be as it should be!!!!, but still dropping out!!
HELP !!
Best Regards
Lindsay


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## Noel

Lindsay said:


> Hi all,
> My 1999 Fiat Ducato 2.8 idtd has recently aquired the '5th gear syndrome', with a bit of a twist!
> As with most, it started dropping out of 5th when under load, with no prior signs or warnings.
> Simple fix I thought, if a bit expensive, but had to get it sorted!
> I had 5th gear replaced, by a Fiat garage (gear set, synchro., selector fork and fixings), but it was still dropping out of gear!! They informed me that the gearbox would have to come out, so..... as many others have done in the past, I 'limped' home in 4th.!!
> Has anyone else experienced this, or could anyone give me an idea of what the problem is likely to be *inside* the box.
> I have had 5th gear checked again, and everything seems to be in order!!
> Any concrete advice, or ideas, would be greatly appreciated, as I'm due to take it to a local gearbox specialist on Tuesday.
> Many thanks
> Lindsay


I've had problems with my 2001 1.9TD van and box, firstly with the speedo not working because of a sheared plastic gear wheel, after that was fixed for circa £400 (luckily under dealer guarantee) after another year I couldn't select 4th at all! Nearly £1000 lighter after a box refurb all now is performing well 

The blamed problem? Water getting into the box via the breather hole and turning the oil to mush. Apparently a well known problem on over-cab coachbuilts because when standing still rainwater does not disperse _around_ the bulbous promotory but gallons dump over the front into the windscreen sill drain outlet which is postioned over.... yes the gearbox breather hole :?

The specialist (stick with a specialist NOT a garage) gearbox company I used has now tried to move the rubber sill drain (difficult due to the shaped rubber) but to be on the safe side when parked at home I have a poly sheet over the windscreen sill and all water runs over the bonnet!

Noel.


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## Kev1

buying a groundsheet today


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## Lindsay

Thanks for that Noel,
I had heard of that problem, but thankfully my oil looked to be in good condition when drained down to do the 5th gear job. However, I fear that I'll still be following you down the 'full refurb' route, after I've seen my 'box man' on Tuesday.
Lindsay


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## boswells

*4th Gear problem*

I'm sorry I can't help you directly with this one although I have had to get a new 5th gear. What might be of help, however, is to try the specialists I found after nearly having to re-mortgage the family home to pay a fiat franchise to do the work. I now use Gear Change who specialise in re-manufactured exchange gearboxes. They are very much cheaper and no one I've spoken to has a bad word for them. They are at Robins Lane, Burtle, Bridgwater Somerset TA7 8NT tel 01278 722359 Website www.gearchange.co.uk. email [email protected].
They might be worth a call before you go elsewhere. 
Alan


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## Lindsay

Thanks for that Alan,
I've also 'felt the full force' of a Fiat main dealer and appreciate where you're coming from.
I've got a local Gearbox specialist, just outside Swansea, having a look at it tomorrow. He has a good reputation, so I'm hoping for some positive news. If it comes down to a full re-manufacture job, I will certainly make contact with 'Robins Lane' to compare prices!
Regards
Lindsay


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## aultymer

denisl said:


> I'm certainly no expert, but I would have thought that if the selctor and gears themslves are ok, then it must down to adjustment of the linkage.
> I don't know if anything else in the gearbox can cause a gear to jump out.


A failed bearing will cause a gear to 'jump out' of mesh.
A gearbox expert is the way to go.


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## Chausson

Hi Lindsey
There used to be a brilliant gearbox guy in Swansea sorry cant remember his name but he used to be in the ferry boat area. Sorry I can't be anmore help than that.


Ron


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## Lindsay

Hi aultymer,
That's my thought at the moment, as all of the 5th gear components are now new!
Only thing is, gears 1 to 4 are still working well, with no obvious bearing noise!
It's all down to my 'expert' tomorrow now!
This is worse than waiting for a visit to the dentist!!
Regards
Lindsay


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## Lindsay

Hi there Ron,
That could well be the guy I'm taking my van to in the morning!
Manual Gearbox Repairs, a father and son team who've been about for well over 20 years and are supposedly the best. 
Dad is known locally as 'John the Box'!!
Cheers
Lindsay


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## Pudsey_Bear

From what I can gather, the problem seems to stem from the fact that it's a converted 4 speed box and the 5th gear is actually an overdrive in a gearbox extension housing, not in the main box, and suffers from a lack of oil feed leading to early bearing failure (leading to jumping out of gear) especially on motorhomes due to their spending more time in top gear at relatively low speeds, and not going through the box as a normally used van would, IE winding it up in each gear therefore pressurising the oil and forcing more into the extension box, I'm told that ATF is better than gear oil in the 2.8jtd box as it has a the capacity to splash feed the 5th gear better.

When looking at the 5th gear components it is no wonder they fail as they are basically 2 sets of synchros which mesh together side by side, unlike standard solid gear cogs tooth to tooth, and if they don't get close enough together they wear each other out.

When driving MHs with this box the best way is to wind it up in 4th, and every ten miles or so, lift your right foot off the gas for about 2 mins, and this allows more oil to get into the 5th gear, or if poss change down to 4th for a couple of minutes.

This is advice given by at least 3 gearbox experts.

It would appear the Fiat et al, can't make good gearboxes.


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## Lindsay

Thanks Kev_n_Liz,
I understand what you're saying, but my problem is that all the 5th gear components have been renewed and checked, but the problem still persists. This means the fault must lie within the main box, but could well be a bearing problem. 
I'll let you know the outcome!!
Regards
Lindsay


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## Pudsey_Bear

Lindsay said:


> Thanks Kev_n_Liz,
> I understand what you're saying, but my problem is that all the 5th gear components have been renewed and checked, but the problem still persists. This means the fault must lie within the main box, but could well be a bearing problem.
> I'll let you know the outcome!!
> Regards
> Lindsay


All but the shaft coming into the extension and the bearing supporting it.

I sincerely hope it turns out to be a simple bearing or an adjustment.

Good luck.


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## Lindsay

Spot on, Kev_n_Liz,
It's my 'guess' that it'll be the bearing/s supporting the shaft/s. 
Still a box out job, but fairly straight forward if there's no other major damage. 
Cheers.


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## eurajohn

If it were a bearing problem you would have excessive noise!.
If as you say all of the 5th gear components have been changed, I would suggest that shaft end float can be the only possible cause now, exactly how that is controlled on your box I'm not sure but will normally be via a circlip.
Unless of course the 5th gear synchro has not been installed correctly.


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## Lindsay

Hi eurajohn,
I've been 'paranoid' about noise, from anywhere near the gearbox, since 5th went, but it hasn't been at all excessive! 
The 5th gear cover was removed again this morning and all the new components were removed, checked and replaced by a 'box specialist' who felt everything was A1.
He was very optimistic when he left on a test drive, but came back with bad news. Still dropping out of 5th.!!!
So......, the box is coming out tomorrow morning for splitting and a full inspection, followed by remedial action, as necessary!!
Will probably be a few days, depending on parts needed and availability, but should know where I'm going by Thursday. 
I'd *love* it to be a circlip and live in hope!!
Best regards,
Lindsay


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## inkey-2008

Have the clutch done while it is out.

Andy


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## Lindsay

Definite Andy,
No doubt about that!
Lindsay


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## Pudsey_Bear

It could be end float but I very much doubt it, and I don't think it would be controlled by a circlip anyway, but admit, it's out of my experience, 2 things I don't mess with, gearboxes and brakes, one because I hate the smell of gear oil, and the second because I don't like to drive into things.


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## eurajohn

Kev_n_Liz, both the items you mention I am very familiar with!

Most people that do not understand how an automotive gearbox functions assume that when a gear "drops out" it is the helical gear that somehow dis-engages, that is not the case, the helical gear set of the three shafts are always engaged with their counterpart, it is the small dogs of the synchro hub that does the engaging with the gear and ensures it stays in position.
My reference to float was not specifically at what is normally referred to as end float, rather the actual positioning of the shafts within the bearings and of the bearings in the housing, the positioning of these is almost always controlled via circlips. If a shaft is allowed to "float" it will allow the synchro dogs to come apart sufficiently to dis-engage the gear. The normal reason for the problem originally referred to is wear on the 5th gear and its engaging dogs of the synchro hub.

Lindsay, hope your specialist sorts it out for you without too much expense.


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## Chausson

Lindsay said:


> Hi there Ron,
> That could well be the guy I'm taking my van to in the morning!
> Manual Gearbox Repairs, a father and son team who've been about for well over 20 years and are supposedly the best.
> Dad is known locally as 'John the Box'!!
> Cheers
> Lindsay


Hi Lindsay
That's the fella I took my car to him many years ago because of his reputation long way for me to go I live in the rhondda so he must be good.

Ron


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## Pudsey_Bear

eurajohn said:


> Kev_n_Liz, both the items you mention I am very familiar with!
> 
> Most people that do not understand how an automotive gearbox functions assume that when a gear "drops out" it is the helical gear that somehow dis-engages, that is not the case, the helical gear set of the three shafts are always engaged with their counterpart, it is the small dogs of the synchro hub that does the engaging with the gear and ensures it stays in position.
> My reference to float was not specifically at what is normally referred to as end float, rather the actual positioning of the shafts within the bearings and of the bearings in the housing, the positioning of these is almost always controlled via circlips. If a shaft is allowed to "float" it will allow the synchro dogs to come apart sufficiently to dis-engage the gear. The normal reason for the problem originally referred to is wear on the 5th gear and its engaging dogs of the synchro hub.
> 
> Lindsay, hope your specialist sorts it out for you without too much expense.


That's a much better summation, and I would concur with all of that, as it wouldn't take too much for the synchro not to fully engage the gear allowing it to pop out easily.

Although I can't stand the smell of gear oil nowadays, I did like to strip and rebuild stuff as kid, and did do a few scrap car boxes and engines, it gave a good insight generally into what goes on in there, but it must be 30 years since I stripped anything with oily bit's unless you count HI and oil of Ulay :wink: :wink:


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## Lindsay

Hi Ron,
He still has a great reputation, which hopefully I'll be able to endorse by the end of the week. Watch this space!!!
and...
Kev_n_Liz,
Is that where I've been going wrong, using Semi synthetic oil instead of Oil of Ulay!!


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## Pudsey_Bear

Lindsay said:


> Hi Ron,
> He still has a great reputation, which hopefully I'll be able to endorse by the end of the week. Watch this space!!!
> and...
> Kev_n_Liz,
> Is that where I've been going wrong, using Semi synthetic oil instead of Oil of Ulay!!


A lot of people use ATF, but she says it stings a bit.


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## Lindsay

*That 5th Gear Again! Sorted, at last!*

For information, for all those who offered advice ten days ago, my 5th gear has, at last, been sorted out!!
It was a 'gear box out job', as expected, and on to 'John the box'. 
He split the box, this time, and checked it out thoroughly (shafts, gears, synchros, bearings, etc.)! ..... and found nothing apparently wrong!!!
So it was back to checking the 5th gear components, Fiat Original parts, which I had seen installed straight from the packaging a day or so previously!!
The problem lay with the Synchro., which had been installed as a unit,
hub and ring complete! 
When the synchro. ring was detached, it was found that one of the three locating lugs was non existent! Therefore full gear engagement was not possible. 
Fiat deny that it could have been supplied like this, but it had only been on the vehicle for a ten minute road test, and dropped out of 5th on the first time it was engaged!! SO,.... if it hadn't been supplied like this, there must have been a pretty serious flaw!!! Check out the pics. and see what you think!
On the credit side 'John the box' found a second hand 'ring', that he had in stock, which once fitted solved the problem.
Early days, but all seems well! What a pleasure to cruise in 5th.!!!
Thanks again all,
Lindsay


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## Pudsey_Bear

Fiat will surpass themselves one day and deny that they have ever made any product whatsoever :roll: :roll: 

I'm glad that your back to normal again, and thanks for showing the pics of what to look for.


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## eurajohn

Lindsay, really pleased you are at last sorted although surprised the "specialist" didn't check the 5th gear components before taking the box out.

Just a thought but can't make out from your pictures, is the inner surface of the baulk ring shiny? I'm wondering if perhaps someone had substituted the new one for this old one in the packaging, if this were genuinely a new part the inner faces would be matt appearance, it could not have been manufactured like that.


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## Lindsay

Hi John,
Your 'thought', echoed ours exactly!!
The cardboard box packaging for the synchro did look 'handled' and 'as if it had been opened'!!
However, Fiat claimed that this would have been impossible with their systems!! It would seem that they are in fact infallible!!
With the help of my garage, I'm currently in negotiations with them regarding some form of compensation for the extra work carried out due to their error. 
I'm awaiting a reply, but don't hold out too much hope of a positive outcome.
The one consolation I have is that if they'd carried out the work for me it would have cost twice as much, at least!!!
Regards
Lindsay


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## Lindsay

Hi again John,
Your comment about the shiny inner surface of the baulk ring got me thinking, as it was a really valid point that I hadn't thought of earlier!! However, I have just checked it again and it's matt, no shine whatsoever. 
In fact the only sign of any wear at all is the missing/fractured lug!!
Thanks for your contribution though, it was much appreciated.
Lindsay


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## Pudsey_Bear

Surely whoever took the 5th gear apart in the first place to fit the new parts should have spotted such severe damage, and certainly whoever checked them, I'd be looking to them to pay for at least a portion of the cost of having the box stripped down for no real reason other than they didn't do their job properly.


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## Lindsay

Hi Kev_n_Liz,
Bear in mind, that the 'severe damage' was to the 'baulk ring', which was an 'original *new* fiat part' (synchro hub, etc.), which had done 0 miles!! 
'John the box' has charged me nothing for the extra work, because he missed the damage when fitting, but surely a new unit from Fiat should not need checking, so I feel that the cost of 'box out, box back in' should be borne by fiat!!!
We'll see. We live in hope!
But,..... my Van is back....... and Cruising in 5th.!! Sooooo Cool!!
Best regards,
Lindsay


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## Pudsey_Bear

Good luck Lindsay, but I won't be holding my breath.


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