# Efoy fuel cells



## Biglol (Jul 16, 2007)

Can someone please tell me about Efoy Fuel Cells, you've got to explain it like I am 5 years old ( no make that three )  
Are they like a solar panel in that it tops up your batteries. I notice they don't come cheap, so what is it that sells them ? 

I hope I have posted this in the right place  

Biglol


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## 103356 (Mar 11, 2007)

Fuel cells are the 'green' equivalent of generators. They use methanol (or ethanol) rather than petrol, and use a chemical reaction to produce water (as a by-product) and electricity. The process uses hydrogen, generated from the methanol, combined with oxygen, in the presence of a catalyst, to produce the electricity. They are roughly the size of a small Honda generator, and fit in a similar space on a vehicle, or can be portable. They connect to a 5l fuel supply container (which costs around £15  which is why they are not yet more popular), although larger containers are available at slightly better cost per litre.

Their big advantage is that they are relatively silent, especially when compared to a petrol generator. Although like a generator they can produce mains electricity (via an inverter), more normally they supply 12v or 24v (depending on the model), and can be combined with an intelligent charger/controller which will monitor the state of the batteries and top them up as reqd. This means you can leave the fuel cell on all the time, and it will power up only when needed. The other downside, apart from cost, is that the fuel and the fuel cell do not like freezing conditions, so some energy has to be used to keep the installation above freezing, where this is likely to occur. Their huge advantage over solar panels is that they will supply power at the very time you are likely to be using it (i.e. when it is dusk, or dark, when solar panels produce nothing at all, but when you are likely to be using most power for lights, TV, computer, etc) and are not weather dependant.

The following link will provide any further details you might want, including costs:

http://www.premierworldofoutdoors.com/product_details.asp?prod=258


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## Biglol (Jul 16, 2007)

Thanks Chrisdy, that was very informative.


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## Don_Madge (May 1, 2005)

Biglol said:


> Can someone please tell me about Efoy Fuel Cells, you've got to explain it like I am 5 years old ( no make that three )
> Are they like a solar panel in that it tops up your batteries. I notice they don't come cheap, so what is it that sells them ?
> 
> I hope I have posted this in the right place
> ...


Hi,

Clive MG has got one on trial at present full details HERE

Don


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Van Bitz were the first firm in the UK to import them. The problem then, is the same as now in that the fuel distribution is simply far too patchy.

The best advice is wait as there is a whole raft of new generation cells comming along that run on LPG

Voller Energy is the first LPG system to market. Their Emerald range is still too big and too expensive for the majority of motorhome owners, but watch this space. 8O 

In the meantime the only viable alternative for those long winter days (if you don't/can't have hook up) is a generator! Unless your going South when a solar panel may help a bit when it's sunny!

Regards

Eddie


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## Superk (Aug 22, 2005)

Problem with the EFOY is supply of methanol so if you go away for an extended period you have to find room for a lot of the stuff. I worked out that for our winters away I'd have to tow a trailer.

If you're considering going down that track consider a Gasperini LPG generator - it does exactly the same job charging the battery automatically or manually, its neat and is fitted underneath the motorhome, and is quiet. Ours has been a boon and means you can stay anywhere and keep the battery topped up. Also if you want to make a big draw on the battery using an inverter for say a hair dryerthe generator will pump some amps into the battery at the same time.

Costs about the same as the EFOY. One of the best things we've bought. Unlike solar works day, evening or morning grey days and rainy days.

Gasperini Self Energy EG20

 
Keith


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Hi Eddie,

Just browsing through this thread again and wonder if you have any updates on LPG fuel cells. I see Voller have ceased trading and Truma won't have a product until 2010. Are there any other products in the pipeline?

Pete


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## SaddleTramp (Feb 15, 2007)

Superk said:


> Problem with the EFOY is supply of methanol so if you go away for an extended period you have to find room for a lot of the stuff. I worked out that for our winters away I'd have to tow a trailer.
> 
> If you're considering going down that track consider a Gasperini LPG generator - it does exactly the same job charging the battery automatically or manually, its neat and is fitted underneath the motorhome, and is quiet. Ours has been a boon and means you can stay anywhere and keep the battery topped up. Also if you want to make a big draw on the battery using an inverter for say a hair dryerthe generator will pump some amps into the battery at the same time.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with Keith, we have an EG20 and at the side of an EFOY which will charge at up to 5.4 ah according to other posts wow, the EG20 wacks a massive 20a/h when needed, and just like an EFOY it is quiet But unlike an efoy it runs on LPG.

Sorry to put another link in Keith but your link to Conrad Anderson is broken :- http://www.egasperini.it/


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

http://www.conrad-anderson.co.uk/power/generators/generator-SelfEnergy-EG20.htm


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## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

Another link to the Gasperini technical site.

Gasperini technical page

Lots of pictures & videos.

Anyone know if these units can be bought independently in the UK. 2.5 K to Conrad Anderson seems a little excessive to me.

D.


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## Superk (Aug 22, 2005)

Hi

Quoted at £1,895 here - not fitted:

Self-Energy

'Naturally enough costs can vary according to the installation and each motorhome can be surprisingly different due to variations in chassis and in the already installed equipment. '

When I was looking for mine the guys who normally look after my MH enquired about costs with the importing agent - the conclusion they came to was that with fitting they couldn't beat the Conrad-Anderson price. However, the C-A cost has gone up since then. Have to say they did a good job.

 
Keith


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Thanks guys,

With the price of methanol around £74 for 2 x 10 ltrs it does seem expensive to keep running (not to mention the £30 delivery surcharge if mail ordered)

But what about the noise of the EG20 - 51 db doesn't sound that quiet, given that Honda quote 69db for their genny. This is the bit I'm struggling with. We just got back from France where the use of gennies was prevalent - even up to 11pm at night. One English guy had a gas genny in his Carthago and it sounded noisier than the suitcase gennies that were running all day (it was a 4kw 240v version though) Put me right off gennies

Is the EG20 really that quiet?


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

The EG20 is OK noise wise, but still would wind people up on a site.

Methanol! We have now further concern inasmuch that we have been asking insurers and most will not insure vehicles carrying methanol!  

I am not a FSA insurance bod but would advise that you check with your insurers before carrying methanol. Some forbid it, some limit you to 5 Ltrs


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Sooo - if it should suddenly start up (on automatic for example) in the middle of the night then I wouldn't be top of everyones Chritmas Card list - right?


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## SaddleTramp (Feb 15, 2007)

Vennwood said:


> Thanks guys,
> 
> With the price of methanol around £74 for 2 x 10 ltrs it does seem expensive to keep running (not to mention the £30 delivery surcharge if mail ordered)
> 
> ...


Mine is under the floor of the MH and when it is running you really have to listen for it, I have used it on sites and never even had as much as a second glance, I also have a timer on it and I have set it so that after 2200 hrs it doesn't work when on sites, But we have it for wild camping so it is never used on sites with Elec.

I Guarantee it is REALLY quiet


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## Superk (Aug 22, 2005)

Vennwood said:


> Sooo - if it should suddenly start up (on automatic for example) in the middle of the night then I wouldn't be top of everyones Chritmas Card list - right?


Only if it was switched on! You have a manual control - the old on/off button - switch it off at night or when you don't want it. I tend to do it the other way round - switch it on when I know it will be needed.

 
Keith


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## SaddleTramp (Feb 15, 2007)

Vennwood said:


> Sooo - if it should suddenly start up (on automatic for example) in the middle of the night then I wouldn't be top of everyones Chritmas Card list - right?


Mine has the additional Timer and I set it to reasonable times for use ie off between 2200 hrs and 0800 hrs.

But there is an internal switch which you can use to disable or enable or even start it.


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## oldun (Nov 10, 2005)

Can anyone offer us the approx cost of providing a charge of 1 amp for one hour, or some similar type of costing?

Ignoring the initial outlay it still seems to be a very difficult (getting supplies) and expensive process.

I read somewhere that the gas powered fuel cells are much noisier, very much like a generator.


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

LPG fuel cells will be quiet, the gas powered units you refer to are gas generators, and yes they are noisey.

They are not as bad as some make out but noiser than the manufactureres claim


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Hi Oldun,

As a rough guide 100amps with Efoy will cost you £4.16
A petrol genny of 1.5/2.0 KW will cost you £2.04 for 100amps
The EG20 will cost you approx 75p for 100 amps
Solar panels will cost you £0.00 for 100 amps.

However if it rains or you are parked under trees in winter the Solar panels will give you next to nothing, while the other three will continue to provide you power whatever the weather

Gas powered genny's, according to the data sheets, are slightly noisier than their petrol variants but when the gas fuel cells arrive on the market they should be much quieter

Its all a compromise on convenience etc. as other than the small genny the others all cost around £2K+

Hope that helps


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Good answer Vennwood  But he didn't tell us what voltage :wink:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Chrisdy, great post. We have an Efoy fuel cell and it does just what you say. Others are saying fuel can be hard to get, we have spent the winter in France and Spain and have found fuel fairly easy to get, although we do ring first to see if stockists actually keep it. 

There is no doubt that a fuel cell does not provide cheap electricity so if you are going to be on sites do not buy one. If you are going to wild camp it is the bees knees. We have tried a Honda generator but it is noisy, the fuel cell is almost silent, just a gentle ticking sound from the pump, Regards, Alan.


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Hi Alan,

I'd be interested to hear about your running costs with the Efoy?

My worry is that using around 50 and occasionally up to 75amps per day, the ongoing running costs will work out very expensive for what is undoubtably a reliable power source. What sort of prices for Methanol were you paying in France?

Pete


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## 96783 (Nov 23, 2005)

We had an Efoy fitted on delivery of our MH. In nearly 6 months of actual use (not ownership) we have used one and a bit 10 ltr containers. We carry two extra and my insurer knows and has no problems. The 5ltr container here in Germany, home of Efoy, costs €16 and the 10ltr €21. In use it is only a (very) quiet hum. It is an excellent bit of kit, if very expensive.


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Hi Phredc

The lenght of time that the canister lasts is immaterial with respect. If you never turn it on it will last indefinatley.

There is a finite amount of power to be extracted out of each canister. Whether you use it in a few days or a few months is determined by your use. 

Working at its maximum 130 amps it would consume the methanol in a 10 litre container in about 6.5 days, conversely if you only wanted to top your batteries up by a few amps a day it would last much much longer. 

However, if you only need to top your batteries up I would have to ask if spending £3000 on the Efoy was the right thing to do.

Most of our customers that enquire about Efoy are considering it as an alternative to alternative power sources, not necessarily just for topping up batteries. 

Large inverter use can easily mean that the 130amp maximum daily output is easily exceeded so calculating the daily running costs are academic, it it the cost per kilowatt that has more meaning.

As for your insurers knowing that a large amount of methanol is carried, I am simply advising our customer to check, and if possible get in writing that the underwriters are happy to allow methanol to be carried. 

This only came about as we have has customers who have run in to trouble with their own insurance companies. Because of this we made enquiries ourselves and found that of the ones we spoke to 5litres was the maximum.

We just ask our customers to check before buying a Efoy to save any risk in the future.


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## SaddleTramp (Feb 15, 2007)

Eddievanbitz, I am glad you did that, I was trying to find a way to put it without appearing rude.

I recently had a 11kg Gas bottle that lasted me 21 months on a gas fire in my Hut up my garden,

Ok Ok you sussed me out I never lit it.

:lol: :lol: 

Probably because I never went up garden. 


I have read a few mention Generators on Campsites and "If it started up in middle of night on a Campsite" etc etc etc.

If I am on a campsite I use EHU so nothing starts up in middle of night.

If I am wild camping then in middle of night I am asleep and nothing is using electric so it won't start anyway.
and I NEVER park where others are parked when wild camping.

If you use campsites why does anyone need an EFOY or a GENERATOR of ANY type.????? :lol:


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

It's refreshing to get so many different opinions - this is what makes the world go round - right?

I have often wondered how people manage to cope with things like a single 6kg gas bottle that last for over a year when wild camping, Efoy methanol bottles that last all winter on less than 5 ltrs, even generators, gas or petrol, that don't disturb anyone.

I must be doing things all wrong as we have at times, used 44ltrs of gas every 12 days in winter, that's the same as 2 x 11kg bottles. But then I have been seen BBQing in the foulest of weather  

We have 2 x 130W panels that don't keep up with demand and every time we take out our generator in the middle of the day somebody gives us dirty looks and most of the time we wild camp so don't have the option of EHU. 

Unfortunately wild camping is getting busier and I guess we don't mind that, as in this day and age, there is safety in numbers  

The joy and excitment our MH gives us and the freedom to explore new places for longer periods is what it's all about - for us anyway. All my working life we hardly had more than a week away and now we spend more than 20 weeks every year and increasing this every year.

In this and other threads I am trying to discover what power resources other people use so we can refine our set up so that we can really enjoy ourselves without having to duck in to campsites every now and then or disturbe a neighbour by topping up our batteries by use of a generator. 

Keep up the opinions they are all welcome and valid.

Pete


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

eddievanbitz said:


> However, if you only need to top your batteries up I would have to ask if spending £3000 on the Efoy was the right thing to do.
> Most of our customers that enquire about Efoy are considering it as an alternative to alternative power sources, not necessarily just for topping up batteries.


So Eddievanbitz,

I hear what you say and mostly agree with your logic on Efoy as a cost effective power source - what would you recommend in order to extend self sufficiency when wild camping? And to qualify that I would add that er indoors has no intention of ditching the electric toaster or microwave and regarding the hair dryer - don't even go there 

She would argue (and I would have to agree) the grill on our MH is useless for toast (only browns one edge) the microwave is great for rice, fish and things. And we intend to enjoy ourselves with as little compromise as possible


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Hi Vennwood

I like you do not like compromise, I didn't buy a motorhome to be uncomfortable when camping, that's called a tent  

I have a two 125 amp batteries, a self tracking solar panel, which like all solar panels doesn't actually achieve a lot in the UK in the winter, a 2000 watt inverter on autoswitch (comes on on demand when mains is not present, and a generator!

I fitted a good, Sterling four stage charger and a battery computer to tell me what is going on with charge and discharge and how long we have got left. And I have enhanced the charging system to ensure optimum charging from the alternator when the engine is running.

When I do run the genny the system will charge at about 50amps per hour so a couple of hours in the morning while Lyn (my wife) is using the hair dryer and the 220volt water heating is assisting the gas hot water heating, tops the batteries up nicely.

Short bursts of hair drying or anything similar can be provided from the inverter, as does the running of satellite system to both TV's

I have used Efoys and sell them. Frankly I find that I get too little power, for far too much money, for too much inconvenience. However, some people like the concept and will stick with it. 

There is an expression "Come on in lad's the waters fine" :lol:


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Hi Eddievanbitz,

We have similar set-ups in many ways, except I don't have a self tracking panel. I do have 3 x 180AH batteries, 2 x 130W panels and I have the Sterling 4 stage charger (80amps), with a Sterling 2500W invertor, all monitored through the Sterling Battery Management System. Currently I use a genny to top up the shortfall from the panels. During the summer months all works fine with only the rare occasion we need the genny. 

This winter we found the panels pretty useless, even in the South of France and on one hand got cheesed off with the "silent grumbles", mainly from brits hwo were "roughing it" (by that I mean they had no creature comforts such as inverters, tv's etc.) then on the other hand, ourselves got cheesed off with inconsiderate French and Belgians running their genny's from early morning until late at night. The later appeared to be running 240v TV's through the genny. 

So we are just trying to see if what others do and as I say, see if we can refine our setup.

Pete


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## SaddleTramp (Feb 15, 2007)

Vennwood said:


> Hi Eddievanbitz,
> 
> We have similar set-ups in many ways, except I don't have a self tracking panel. I do have 3 x 180AH batteries, 2 x 130W panels and I have the Sterling 4 stage charger (80amps), with a Sterling 2500W invertor, all monitored through the Sterling Battery Management System. Currently I use a genny to top up the shortfall from the panels. During the summer months all works fine with only the rare occasion we need the genny.
> 
> ...


Been there done that, I think what it is Pete is that us Brits tend to Think about our fellow Campers whilst the Germans French Belgians rarely do, That is one of the reasons why I very rarely camp with others now in Europe and if I cannot find anywhere to be on my own I go on a site usually.

about three years ago we were wild camping near Bolzano and we had been there about 2 days when this enormous German unit came in, It was very obviously Home built it was about 4 pm when he arrived and from then until 1145 he had a dirty great diesel Genny running, Next morning at 0645 it started again, I was getting so mad the wife made me pack up and go.

I have the EG20 which is on a timer and will not work between 2200 - 0800 I have 2 X 130ah batteries and I now have 1 X 100 watt Solar, I have a 3000 watt Pure Sine Inverter I find that I rarely run low on power, My Tv is 12v, maybe the reason I rarely run low is that I only usually stay in 1 place about 4 days, I think the max in 1 place was 6 days at Ypres, even when the EG20 is in use it rarely runs for more than 1/2 an hour and it is extremely quiet.

I admit we don't do much via electric except boil kettles for Cha, We dont usually have heating on at night except in real winter


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## 96783 (Nov 23, 2005)

Yes Eddie, your calculations are quite correct I´m sure but as with everything else in his world "you pays yer money and takes yer choice". There are some who drive American RVs and others, like us, who drive a 3500 kg A class French lady. Yes, our 10 and a bit litres have lasted us 6 months of use (not straight calendar months) and on aires and stellplatze mostly with occasional bursts on camp sites. Because one moves on fairly frequently from aires and stellplatzes we usually arrive with a fully charged up battery. Yes, the Efoy is expensive, yes in charging terms there are much easier and cheaper and effective ways of doing so but, and it´s a big but, it suits us! It stays on permanently and so does the job when it needs to, usually charging when we´re asleep. Minbd you I would love to have some of the kit you quote but feel we´ve probably spent enough.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Efoy fuel in Spain around 22 euro per 10lt and in France around 25 euro per 5lt, very expensive I thought but I needed it. Other suppliers in France may be less expensive. Not all the listed stockists keep the fuel in stock so I suggest emailing or ringing to check. Prices seem to vary depending upon how much profit the supplier wants to take on it. 

I would not use it as my primary power source, but in sunny climes we find our solar panel (100w) gives us most of what we require. We just top up using the fuel cell. Our power consumption is around 50 to 60 amp hours per 24 hour period. We have been in France and Spain since last October, during that time we have been connected to mains for around 45 days and have used 22lt of Efoy methanol. Do not be tempted to use other Methanol as any which is less pure than the Efoy fuel may destroy the fuel cell, Regards, Alan.


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

After waiting for over 4 weeks now I finally got a reply from Efoy regarding using Efoy to charge more than 250AH batteries And.....

They say "You should not use 3 x 180 Ah as the bigger the capacity of the battery/s the higher the internal resistance becomes and consequently the loss in charging power rises."

Glad I held off now otherwise I would have been stuck with something that didn't do what I expected

Pete


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Hi Pete, Told you, save your money :lol:

Eddie


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