# Gas...rights and wrongs???



## Lys520 (Mar 24, 2008)

Hello

Can anyone give me some advice about gas do's and dont's? 

I have always been a little nervous of gas and gas cylinders (its even become a little joke amongst friends  ) Have heard a few scary stories re: "blowing the b****y doors off" etc. Since having the motorhome, though, I have had to chill out a little......not a bad thing!

With regards to using gas, are there any rules? Some people I talk to, turn their gas off, at the cylinders in their caravans and MH's after every use - others leave it on continuosly when parked. (I decided to compromise and generally turn it off at night)

My van is 11 years old and I have recently had the fridge serviced (all fine :lol: ) We are about to head off for a weekend without EHU and I want to run the fridge on gas.....should it be turned off at night, or is it recommended to leave it on?

About to invest in a gas detector too.

I know this probably seems like a really stupid question, I just wondered if there were any general rules, rather than personal preferences.

Cheers

Lys


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## andyman (Aug 31, 2006)

The only time I turn the gas off is when its parked up at home or when I'm driving.


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## Polo (Jul 5, 2007)

*Gas - rights and wrongs*

Hi there. We turn the gas on as soon as our van lands on site and only turn it off as we leave to drive to the next location! Mind you sometimes we even forget to do that.

Enjoy using your van and stop having nightmares about gas.


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## Smilo (Nov 2, 2005)

*Re: Gas - rights and wrongs*



Polo said:


> We turn the gas on as soon as our van lands on site and only turn it off as we leave to drive to the next location! Mind you sometimes we even forget to do that.


Ditto.


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## claypigeon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Gas - rights and wrongs*



Polo said:


> Hi there. We turn the gas on as soon as our van lands on site and only turn it off as we leave to drive to the next location! Mind you sometimes we even forget to do that.
> 
> Enjoy using your van and stop having nightmares about gas.


Ditto

Dave


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## 109334 (Jan 20, 2008)

we leave ours on all the time too except when travelling ..but we dont leave the gas heating on when we go to bed.. thats naughty.


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## Lys520 (Mar 24, 2008)

General consensus seems to be the same here...


So, what's the difference between the gas heating and the fridge? Both are vented to he outside.


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## ladyrunner (Feb 2, 2008)

Hi Lys

I only turn gas off at the mains when I am driving. But I do always turn off the gas air blower heater, cooker and gas water heater at the isolating switch at night time. If no EHU I will keep the gas fridge running as it has a nice big ventilation louvre behind it!

I am a bit of a worrier too. When I was camping last year in the tent I keep waking up in the night and checking behind my gas fridge as I was paronoid about it setting the tent or grass on fire. The pilot light was at the back of the fridge almost touching the ground. In the end I propped it up on metal saucepans and hoped for no gale force winds!! 8O 8O 8O 

I'm am more settled in the MH now as I have purchased smoke alarm and Co2 detector card, and also a brand new fire extinguisher.

Do you have EHU at Camber Sands or are you only paying £3 per night for the cheap pitches??

Julie


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## Lys520 (Mar 24, 2008)

Hi Julie

That's exactly the sort of thing I would do.    

Sometimes I think it is just lack of confidence in knowing how this stuff all works...I'm doing my best but you can't learn it all in one go, eh? This site is a huge help though  

Camber we have electric, but was actually thinking of Peterborough.

Re Camber....just about to PM you!

Lys


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## ladyrunner (Feb 2, 2008)

Lys520 said:


> Camber we have electric, but was actually thinking of Peterborough.


Hi Lys

On Monday morning before Camber I'm heading over to my dads for us to have another stab at mending my water heater. We fitted the new parts on Tuesday but ran out of time (we only had 75 minutes)! Connected it all up but had a water leak on the cold inlet.

Anyway was thinking that if I get it mending in time for Peterborough I will then have to reconnect my shower, which was disconnected by the previous owner, so that I can have a shower and wash my hair at Peterborough as I believe there are no toilet/shower facilities??

But what about a hair dryer - I can't run one off my Leisure Battery!! 8O 8O Do you have a solution other than a weekend of bad hair days? :lol: :lol:

Julie


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## alunj (Sep 5, 2007)

I leave the gas on ALL the time, that said we do have the drivesafe HP hoses and the drivesafe regulator. This means we can have the heating on while driving legally . 
Having just returned from the alps with no hookup we have had the fridge and boiler/heating on continuously for 10 days. No problems.

The most important detector you can buy is a CO (carbon monoxide) and Smoke. Gas would be good but dont forget butane and propane are heavier than air so sink to the floor, mount the detector low down.


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## Lys520 (Mar 24, 2008)

That's so funny! 

I was only talking to my friend today about the possibility of getting my hands on cordless battery straighteners  (if such things actaully exist???)

With no leisure battery anywhere in the van and a dodgy cab battery, its going to be an interesting weekend......no hot water, no hair dryer.

As its our first rally, perhaps we should set a standard of personal hygene that we can only improve upon. If we stand together, they won't know which one of us it is that smells   Perhaps that could be our strategy for winning the boules???? :lol: :lol: 

Lys


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## safariboy (May 1, 2005)

Turn off when driving. (not required on some of the latest vans)
Make sure that the drop vents in each compartment where there is a gas pipe and the van are clear (Butane and propane are heavier than air)
We don't leave the gas heating on over night (but do leave electric on low when on EHU) but if frostbite seemed possible I would.
Use a CO (not CO2) detector
Yearly leakage test

When on a 16A EHU often the gas does not get switched on as the stove has an electric plate. I intend to turn it off at night when on EHU but that does not always happen.

Fridge certainly left on if on gas.


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## krull (Jul 22, 2006)

I leave the gas on alll the time, even when travelling, except when on a ferry. 

When just hopping about, stop-start short journeys, I leave the fridge running on gas rather than 12v so you ar not swapping over the power source (or not as I forget to change over).


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## ladyrunner (Feb 2, 2008)

Lys520 said:


> I was only talking to my friend today about the possibility of getting my hands on cordless battery straighteners  (if such things actaully exist???)
> 
> With no leisure battery anywhere in the van and a dodgy cab battery, its going to be an interesting weekend......no hot water, no hair dryer.


Lys

Yes they do - I have a set of Babylis Gas straighters which I will get packed right away.

Re. Peterborough. Looking on the bright side I do have a new leisure battery, working toilet, working gas fridge, cooker and heater, 12v lights all working as just replaced some light bulbs, cold water and the possiblity of hot water, also got a dodgy engine battery but good if started everyday .... and a set of gas straightners. Oh .... forgot to mention a set of grip tracks for when we get stuck in the field if it rains :lol: :lol: It should be a fun weekend 

Julie


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## Lys520 (Mar 24, 2008)

Ah ha....

off to Amazon 8O


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## RedSonja (May 22, 2006)

Ladyrunner
For Info There are showers and toilets in the rally fields at Peterborough. So no excuse now.
Sonja


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## ladyrunner (Feb 2, 2008)

RedSonja said:


> Ladyrunner
> For Info There are showers and toilets in the rally fields at Peterborough. So no excuse now.
> Sonja


Thanks Sonja for that good news ,

Julie


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## sergeant (Jun 7, 2006)

Hi all, Just to set the record straight to all of you from a professional. All your gas appliances in your vans are designed to be used 24 hours a day in perfect safety. All modern gas appliances are what are called room sealed & therefore exhaust to the outside. The only 2 appliances which are not room sealed are the older wall mounted instantaneous water heaters ie Paloma, Vaillant, Rinnai & Morco to name the common ones & of course the gas cooker. The biggest cause of carbon monoxide in a van is the human bodies within it & a CO detector is a waste of your money as is an LPG detector as it has already been said that LPG is heavier than air & if you have a leak it drops through the purpose made holes. A factory built motorcaravan is far safer gas & ventilation wise than all but the most modern house. The gas isolation taps in your vehicle are there for maintenance & servicing purposes only & are not designed for high level use like the knobs on your cooker so it is advisable for you to leave them alone & just turn the bottle off when not using your van. If you have any specific queries in relation to LPG or your appliances I am more than happy to answer them either in the forums or by PM's , Safe camping, Steve


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## HarleyDave (Jul 1, 2007)

Thanks Steve - I must admit I couldn't quite see the point of all the turning off of the gas - even when driving.

Cheers

Dave


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

Thanks Steve, I was beginning to think I was the only person with this point of view. 
My local LPG supplier even demonstrated what happens if there is a massive leak ( by opening the hose connection on the full refillable bottle) -------- the gas stopped flowing before I could even smell it. 
I keep mine on all the time except when regulations state otherwise ie in the Ch tunnel or on ferries. 
This means that we always have hot water on tap, the fire is ready to start up if we get cold and the fridge is always on. There is a greater danger from food poisoning than explosion if you don't keep the fridge temp low enough when carrying some of that wonderful tasting but to some people, dubious French food.


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## Lys520 (Mar 24, 2008)

Thank you Steve  

That's just what I needed to hear!

From talking to people, there seems to be so many points of view on this. That has boosted my confidence more. Its amazing what some sound technical advice can do.:lol: :lol: :lol: 

I think the fears started after I heard of an article in CC magazine about the fridge doors blowing off due to gas build up and injuring someone asleep in the dinette bed! 

Lys


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

jonnyro said:


> we leave ours on all the time too except when travelling ..but we dont leave the gas heating on when we go to bed.. thats naughty.


Why on earth is that?

Trev.


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## Smilo (Nov 2, 2005)

teemyob said:


> jonnyro said:
> 
> 
> > we dont leave the gas heating on when we go to bed.. thats naughty.
> ...


Wasteful, I guess. Of money and gas.


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

aultymer said:


> Thanks Steve, I was beginning to think I was the only person with this point of view.
> My local LPG supplier even demonstrated what happens if there is a massive leak ( by opening the hose connection on the full refillable bottle) -------- the gas stopped flowing before I could even smell it.
> I keep mine on all the time except when regulations state otherwise ie in the Ch tunnel or on ferries.
> This means that we always have hot water on tap, the fire is ready to start up if we get cold and the fridge is always on. There is a greater danger from food poisoning than explosion if you don't keep the fridge temp low enough when carrying some of that wonderful tasting but to some people, dubious French food.


That's interesting. Are you saying that if there was an accident and the gas pipes in the van were fractured that there is some sort of automatic safety valve that cuts in? Is the same true if the pigtail between the bottle and the regulator were to break?


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## 108401 (Nov 22, 2007)

aultymer said:


> My local LPG supplier even demonstrated what happens if there is a massive leak ( by opening the hose connection on the full refillable bottle) -------- the gas stopped flowing before I could even smell it.


How does that work then? The bottle shuts itself off if it detects too high a flow rate? Is that a feature just of the refillables or do my ordinary Calor bottles have the same safety feature?

I switch the gas off at the bottle when travelling because I don't fancy the idea of a side impact damaging the HP hose from the bottle - which sits just under where the family travel.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Gas*



Smilo said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> > jonnyro said:
> ...


Well In January this year we were in Fagernes Norway -22c outside. Let me tell you I made sure the gas heating was on.

Trev.


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## 94415 (May 1, 2005)

jonnyro said:


> ..but we dont leave the gas heating on when we go to bed.. thats naughty.


What's naughty about that? Do you turn your boiler off at home overnight?  
If it's cold and we're not on EHU the gas fire stays on. The gas gets turned off when in storage and, if I remember, when travelling.
By all means, take precautions and be careful with it but there's no need to be paranoid!


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi,

there seem to be not too many winter campers here... :wink: 

To me, turning off the heating at night when outside temperatures drop below -10 degrees C, seems not such a good idea. And, legal requirement is that gas heaters in MHs and caravans must be completely ventilated to and from the outside. 

Fact is: A properly installed and well-maintained MH gas heater is as safe as your central heating at home. If not safer, or are your domestic gas installations also inspected on a regular base? 

And if it is summer and you don't need the heater, and have no electric hookup: Do you really turn off the fridge at night? I don't.

Don't know about others, but our van's gas installation may be legally operated while driving. So if needed, we do just that. 

Nevertheless, some precautions should be observed: 

1. While changing or refilling gas bottles, make sure that no, absolutely no fire, open flame or anything is nearby. Personally I am a strict non-smoker, but once while I was changing a gas bottle a neighbour came by for a chat, with burning cigarette. In such cases: SHOUT! And tell him where to go to... :wink: 

2. While at a petrol station, all flames must be turned off. 

3. On ferries as well as in the chunnel, all gas appliances must be turned off and all valves closed. 

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## 109368 (Jan 21, 2008)

alunj said:


> I leave the gas on ALL the time, that said we do have the drivesafe HP hoses and the drivesafe regulator. This means we can have the heating on while driving legally .
> Having just returned from the alps with no hookup we have had the fridge and boiler/heating on continuously for 10 days. No problems.
> 
> The most important detector you can buy is a CO (carbon monoxide) and Smoke. Gas would be good but dont forget butane and propane are heavier than air so sink to the floor, mount the detector low down.


Gas detectors are often available from Lidl a few times per year, and only around £29 I recall. They are both 240/12volt but wire them up as 12volt. They also detect LPG/Mains gas. LPG mount it low, mains mount it high. CO detectors are often available from Wilkinsons at only £19.99, and dont forget your smoke detector as well then you're pretty much covered all round. As for gas on or off? Well if you are not using it for some time switch it off then you KNOW it's safe.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"The biggest cause of carbon monoxide in a van is the human bodies within it & a CO detector is a waste of your money"

As chemistry is but a trivial subset of physics I thought I'd better add an oxygen molecule on their behalf. 

Dave
I had a go at Engineers yesterday somewhere so it's Chemists' turn today.


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## alunj (Sep 5, 2007)

DABurleigh said:


> "The biggest cause of carbon monoxide in a van is the human bodies within it & a CO detector is a waste of your money"
> 
> As chemistry is but a trivial subset of physics I thought I'd better add an oxygen molecule on their behalf.
> .


I really hope our resident gas expert didnt just say that.

Humans take in Oxygen and food and exhale CO2 (carbon dioxide) and water vapour
enough CO2 will smother you but the detectors we are talking about are for carbon Monoxide CO and that is a killer.
Badly adjusted gas appliances will emit monoxide but as they are suposed to be room sealed not a problem.
Go back to the threads about fridge drafts then tell me that all the fridges here are properly sealed . If the fridge has an issue it may produce monoxide and if that gets in the van you are not going to wake up.

Unlikely but a posibility, more likely than being gassed by theives


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## alunj (Sep 5, 2007)

cronkle said:


> aultymer said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Steve, I was beginning to think I was the only person with this point of view.
> ...


Newer pigtails have excess flow detectors (the green buttons) and the drive safe regulator from truma does the same, more than x grams of gas per whatever and it will cut off. This is a legal requirement in France if you want to use the heating on the move.


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## 109368 (Jan 21, 2008)

sergeant said:


> Hi all, Just to set the record straight to all of you from a professional. All your gas appliances in your vans are designed to be used 24 hours a day in perfect safety. All modern gas appliances are what are called room sealed & therefore exhaust to the outside. The only 2 appliances which are not room sealed are the older wall mounted instantaneous water heaters ie Paloma, Vaillant, Rinnai & Morco to name the common ones & of course the gas cooker. The biggest cause of carbon monoxide in a van is the human bodies within it & a CO detector is a waste of your money as is an LPG detector as it has already been said that LPG is heavier than air & if you have a leak it drops through the purpose made holes. A factory built motorcaravan is far safer gas & ventilation wise than all but the most modern house. The gas isolation taps in your vehicle are there for maintenance & servicing purposes only & are not designed for high level use like the knobs on your cooker so it is advisable for you to leave them alone & just turn the bottle off when not using your van. If you have any specific queries in relation to LPG or your appliances I am more than happy to answer them either in the forums or by PM's , Safe camping, Steve


Really duff advice and not even on the same subject!! We're talking about carbon monoxide and neat gas. Yes room sealed is supposed to be safe. It is BUT ONLY IF room sealed! That means no wear and tear or the movement of the van dislodging bits and pieces over time etc. (A moving van is a very hostile environment to pipes, fixtures and fittings) AND you have the gas checked EVEY YEAR by a CORGI fitter. Who does? as for leaking gas, yes flame failure etc is supposed to be safe but it isnt, if a pipe comes loose or undone slightly or even blows out (in older vans) it will leak small amounts of gas that will build up on the floor of the van. There are no vents in the floor of the cabin area and even if there were who's to say they would vent enough? Forget these idiots who claim we'll never get struck by lightening, many people do. Play it safe and switch of if you are not using it, and GET the detectors, they're so cheap is it really worth arguing the toss? PS: It's also worth getting a bubble tester installed in the gas locker so that you can test the gas security each and every time you switch on. Be safe be happy.


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Pluto - can you expand on _*bubble tester *_.


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## 109368 (Jan 21, 2008)

pippin said:


> Pluto - can you expand on _*bubble tester *_.


It's a simple device that tests the pressure of the gas and if there is even the sligtest leak it will *bubble* when a button is pressed. Usually used in marine appllications where gas cannot escape to free air hence it's even more dangerous. See http://tinyurl.com/5jqpe7


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

pippin said:


> Pluto - can you expand on _*bubble tester *_.


Hi Pippin

One of  >>these<<  I expect.

Cheers


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## timbop37 (Jun 28, 2006)

I know the issue was touched on regarding an accident but the point was not clarified.

What would be the likely outcome in terms of gas, in the event of an accident. Everybody seems preoccupied with the wrongs and rights of gas on the move but my main (and probably only) concern would be the consequence of being hit by another vehicle. Is my 2008 Compass equipped for such a scenario?

Tim


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## safariboy (May 1, 2005)

There seems to be some confusion here. Carbon monoxide is not the same as carbon dioxide. Carbon monoxide is an active poison and a quite low percentage in the air can be lethal (about 1% or less). I am sure that there have been accidents in motor homes and caravans where people have been killed with carbon monoxide. It is not given out by the body at all but only by incomplete combustion. It is true that all van heaters are room sealed but a leak is not an impossibility. This is what you are guarding against with a carbon monoxide detector.
Carbon dioxide is heavier than air and will kill by suffocation. You do produce carbon dioxide and so there must be some ventilation in the van. 

I would conclude that a Carbon monoxide (CO) detector is worth while.

I have no problem with leaving heaters and the fridge on at night but for most vans you should not drive with the gas on. Modern German vans have a cut out and are designed to be driven with gas on. The danger is fire in an accident or at a fuel station.


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## oldenstar (Nov 9, 2006)

Just got back from MTH where Richard has just fitted me an additional 13kg cylinder in my new van, meaning I now have two 13kg.
As he did not have a steel cylinder in stock the new one is the lightweight alugas type, only thing being that it does not have a gauge.
Therefore Richard has connected them so they will fill together (like one tank really), but I can open or close each individual cylinder-I will use the alugas first and when that runs out, open the steel cylinder which has a gauge, but will know that I shall be needing to refill within a few camping days.
I just love the lpg filler, which is really smart and located in the rear bumper, and is standard with the UK connection.
So just pull up at the pump, slot on the pump nozzle and fill up-no opening the gas locker or fiddling with attachments (in the UK at least).

Took me about 3 minutes this afternoon for my first fill of the new tank plus the small top up of the nearly full older cylinder-24.2 litres at 53.9p cost £13.04.

As the space heater in the new van is gas I am reassured by most comments in this thread, especially as the bed is directly over the gas locker. We never leave the heaters on overnight, just pop out of bed to switch on half an hour before getting up, and that works fine.
Paul


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

safariboy said:


> clipped It is not given out by the body at all but only by incomplete combustion. clipped.


Not completely true if you have a smoker amongst you.

The CO is gradually expelled by the smoker during the night as the Carboxyhaemoglobin (spelling now correct) breaks down, and its often enough to trigger a CO detector.

Edited layout and spelling


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

So, that's another good reason for not smoking!

PS By the way, is CO lighter or heavier than air?


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## safariboy (May 1, 2005)

CO has almost the same density as air.
Thank you for your point about smokers.


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

safariboy said:


> There seems to be some confusion here. Carbon monoxide is not the same as carbon dioxide. Carbon monoxide is an active poison and a quite low percentage in the air can be lethal (about 1% or less). I am sure that there have been accidents in motor homes and caravans where people have been killed with carbon monoxide. It is not given out by the body at all but only by incomplete combustion. It is true that all van heaters are room sealed but a leak is not an impossibility. This is what you are guarding against with a carbon monoxide detector.
> Carbon dioxide is heavier than air and will kill by suffocation. You do produce carbon dioxide and so there must be some ventilation in the van.
> 
> I would conclude that a Carbon monoxide (CO) detector is worth while.
> ...


Tesco have a battery operated digital carbon monoxide alarm for £14.98
Was £29.97 - but not any more!Now £14.98
14 Clubcard points
Save £14.99

http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.100-6185.aspx


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Worryingly, our KIDDE combined fire and carbon monoxide detector has several times activated and announced "Warning - Carbon Monoxide!!.

It occurs when we are cooking on the gas ring.

The gas flames look normal so I am uncertain why it is happening.

We rapidly open wide all doors and windows! 

Any thoughts?


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## safariboy (May 1, 2005)

When the flame hits a cold saucepan it is cooled and combustion will be less complete. This will give a small quantity of carbon monoxide which is always a bad idea but I have never heard of a problem.
When cooking there will be water vapor and carbon dioxide so ventilation is a good thing anyway.
Carbon monoxide detectors are very sensitive but mine seems to give rather variable results. It has never gone above 17 ppm but the literature with it suggests that it is only accurate to 20ppm?


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## 109368 (Jan 21, 2008)

safariboy said:


> When the flame hits a cold saucepan it is cooled and combustion will be less complete. This will give a small quantity of carbon monoxide which is always a bad idea but I have never heard of a problem.
> When cooking there will be water vapor and carbon dioxide so ventilation is a good thing anyway.
> Carbon monoxide detectors are very sensitive but mine seems to give rather variable results. It has never gone above 17 ppm but the literature with it suggests that it is only accurate to 20ppm?


Not sure that is very good information. IF the detector IS going into alarm mode one must presume it is doing it's job, not that it is faulty. Check the coulour of the flame and not just for the cooker, if it's Orange you DO have a problem. Although, Blue does not necessarily mean it's safe either. If you havent had the gas system checked by a CORGI registered fitter for a while then it's time to get it done. Where your life is concerned dont take chances.


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi

I think we are missing something here.

*Carbon monoxide is produced whenever a fuel such as gas, oil, kerosene, wood or charcoal is burned. *

The amount of CO produced depends mainly on the quality or efficiency of combustion. A properly functioning LPG burner has efficient combustion and produces little CO. However, an out-of-adjustment burner can produce life-threatening amounts of CO without any visible warning signs.

So the CO will be present even with a correctly adjusted burner and may be detected by an alarm if there is insufficient ventilation. That is what they are designed to do :roll:

Mike


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