# Urgent-Gas Cylinders freezing Up



## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Hi All
Hope you can help.I am currently in the Haute Alpes long term where it is -4 during the day and -8 at night. I have a Burstner fitted with two gaslow refillable cylinders. I think the gas in them is freezing up. Initially I only had to re-fill each week and kept the heating on low constantly to prevent the van freezing up. I am now having to re-fill every other day and each time I can only put in smaller amounts of gas. I have checked the pipes and cannot detect or smell a gas leak anywhere. I have the van parked in the sun to try to warm the cylinders up. 
Does anybody have any ideas that I can try to warm the cylinders safely how can I prevent this or could there be something else happening that I am not aware of.
Also i have read the winterization topics here and follow all tips. One was to have external pipes boxed in , how do I do this. Also is it safe to put antifreeze down the pipes and into grey water.
That's the lot for now thanks in anticipation of any help offered.

Kind regards 
Jacqui


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Where have you been getting your gas from? I think autogas is propane and that has a freezing point way below what you are experiencing, something like -40 degrees centigrade. The only thing I can think of is perhaps you have some water in the gas pipes which has fozen. Have you
tried warming up your regulator in case that has stuck. Having never experienced this myself these are the only things I can think of.

peedee.


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## 91929 (May 1, 2005)

*gas cylinders freezing up*

Sounds like you are filled with BUTANE it solidifies at a higher temp than PROPANE

You cannot do much.with them now except

1) get a long pipe and take the cylinders into the living quarters this may be enough to get some vapour off the solids to start your heater (hope you have an electric hook up & heater)

2) get a PROPANE (red) cylinder it has to go much lower to solidify
You will also need a REGULATOR for the bottle and possibly a JUBILEE CLIP (in English - clipo Spain)

Easy to cange over just undo the screw clip on the regulator in use & push the pipe onto the new reg & tighten the screw
If the reg has one of those pressure fasteners - Just cut the pipe off as close as poss to the fastener

Call back if problems will leave my m/c on
email [email protected]

all the best PeteC


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

hi jacqui,

I,ve got no magic answers for you but we,ve just returned yesterday from a trip to bavaria where the temperatures ranged from about -3c down to -15c at one place we stayed. In normal temps we normally use about 1ltr of gas a day but when in the really cold stuff we were getting through 2 - 3.5 ltrs a day with the heating on constantly and depending how cold it was. We have 1 x 6kg gaslow along with a 6kg calor as back up and can confirm that we had the same issues, when in normal temperatures down to about freezing we can normally get 10 ltrs (80%) into an empty gas bottle but when the temperature gets into the high minuses we found we could only get about 8 ltrs in from empty. We noticed large amounts of ice forming on the outside of the bottle as well but only filled it twice in these conditions and can't confirm whether the amount you can put in was decreasing or not. I'm not sure if its ice forming inside the bottle or just the fact that you can't get as much in as the temperature gradually drops and maybe the gas expands (?). The only thing i could suggest is to take the bottle inside the van to warm up for a few hours before refilling maybe? Next year we'll definately have a second refillable to compensate for the extra gas usage.

We also have a gaslow gauge fitted which is pretty useless below about -2c as it just showed red all the time.

Fresh tank is internally mounted but the water pump and some of the pipework runs under the settee with part of the blown air duct running nearby, one really cold night i didn't leave the blown air on and the pump actualy froze within the van! Now the blown air runs constantly, lesson learn't.

Our waste tank is externally mounted and we regularly poured salt down the waste pipes each time we used the sinks and always drained it straight to a bucket which worked ok until the really low temps (-8 and below) then it would start to freeze as ice formed on the inside of the pipes eventually blocking the tank outlet, the only option then was to go to a warmer spot for a few days to thaw. Perhaps your idea of anti freeze or bottles of w/screen anti freeze would work, can't see it doing any damage.

Hope you get sorted and let us know how you get on. If i can help any further, PM me.




pete.


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## 91929 (May 1, 2005)

*Gas cylinders freezing*

In MMM or was it Caravan Club?

The advice was NOT to put salt down the sink - if any metals parts are in there salt would form an eletrolitye & may stat corrosion

We use a smallbowl for washing up & empty this into the toilet Then take this to empty - You can then let the flushing water tank run dry - If its empty that cannot freeze


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## Mat7 (May 15, 2005)

I think what your problem is that on a car using lpg, they use liquid gas taken from the bottom of the tank, for heaters you need the gas in its natural state (taken from the top of the tank), the problem you are experiencing is not that the gas is frozen, it will be a liquid but it is simply not warm enough that it will "gas" turning from a liquid to gas probably needs the temp to be up a little, not frozen but no pressure? make sense??? 

how about for example Steam, very hot above 100c it is a gas, cool that to below 100 degrees c it becomes water, not frozen yet, still along way from freezing, but in a enclosed vessel it would offer no pressure. 

if you apply the same pricaples then you have found your fault, and moving somewhere to warm up your bottles may be neccacery.

Cheers for now
Matt
:? 8O :? 8O 
hope it makes sense to you


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

mat7 said:


> I think what your problem is that on a car using lpg, they use liquid gas taken from the bottom of the tank, for heaters you need the gas in its natural state (taken from the top of the tank), the problem you are experiencing is not that the gas is frozen, it will be a liquid but it is simply not warm enough that it will "gas" turning from a liquid to gas probably needs the temp to be up a little, not frozen but no pressure? make sense???
> 
> Matt


Whilst there are differences in take off points, propane should vapourise
at the kind of temperatures being experienced. The act of vaporising itself will cause some cooling but, to what degree I do not know. I still think it is more likely to be external to the tanks and to be problems with the regulator icing up. The fact that little to no gas can be put in on refill would indicate to me it is in fact not being used and is quite full in the first place. I just cannot believe propane is freezing and not vapourising in these temperatures when it is recommend for use outdoors in the winter in places like Canada and Norway.

peedee


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## dodger148 (May 9, 2005)

In cold weather you wont be able to get the draw off rate from the cylinder that is possible in warmer weather 
If you have spare blankets or sacks there is nothing wrong with wrapping the cylinder but dont cover the regulator fully


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## Mat7 (May 15, 2005)

yep sorry i just did a bit of research, i'm talking rubbish, lol aparetly lpg starts vaporising at -42c

see here

http://www.gameco.com.au/lpg.htm

cheers for now
Matt 8O 8O


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

just another one of my crazy thoughts

but is it possible to make a jacket from a set of old silver screens
to keep them warm

will this work 

any thoughts


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

I wonder if a jacket around the bottles might aggravate the situation. As the gas is drawn off the temperature inside the jacket will drop even lower. Just a thought!


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## 93795 (May 1, 2005)

Some areas are quite fussy about what goes down the drains and I think that antifreeze is frowned upon just like formaldehyde.
Phil.


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## 93295 (May 1, 2005)

Just a few facts which may help to clarify the gas situation.....

Lpg. (liquified petroleum gas).....is produced as two distinct types, butane and propane. Both are petroleum derivatives, but have quite different characteristics

When these gasses are pressurised they turn into a liquid, which means you can get an awful lot of gas into a a small space.....liquid gas contains about 250 times more energy than gas vapour.

Most appliances burn gas vapour.......therefore the liquid gas needs to change back into a vapour to be of use. 

As with water, you change liquid gas back into a vapour by heating (boiling) it !!


Fortunately, you need nothing like the heat that water needs to turn it into a vapour.


Liquid butane boils at a temperature of -2C, so if the temperature where the bottle is, is lower than that...........no vapour.



Propane on the other hand boils at a temperature of -42C.......and so should be used if you're going somewhere cold.


Though for the life of me, I cannot understand why people want to go somewhere cold at this time of year........

Personally, I'm busy sewing myself into the thermals.......


JD.


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Hi All
Thanks for the help. I am using Propane.
I managed to warm the cylinders slightly in the Sun this afternoon and the gauge started to show a little green again. I have put a little insulation on the regulator and have put insulation around some of the cylinders but still ensuring I have air circulating. The temperature has now dropped so will have to see how long this works for.
I have also contacted Gaslow so will let you know their response.
Thanks once again

Jacqui


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Be interesting to hear what Gaslow have to say, especially as PJ seemed to have similar problems.

I mentioned that it could be water in the gas pipes, you wouldn't need much at these temperatures to cause problems. I have heard this can happen. We get water due to condensation in a diesel tank so does anyone know if this happens in the case of gas installations or is it an old wives tale?

peedee


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

For what it's worth I would agree with PeeDee that this problem could well be water in the pipes especially if the gas pipes are external and a sag in the pipe would not help either ( collect water), I also remember reading of a chap that hired a M/H in Australia and had to have his refillable bottle topped up every couple of days, it turned out that the bottle had a residue of liquid (not gas) that built up every time it was refilled and every so often they have to be emptied, apparently this was quite common.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

> it turned out that the bottle had a residue of liquid (not gas) that built up every time it was refilled and every so often they have to be emptied, apparently this was quite common.


Thanks Ken, I'm left wondering are the vendors of the refillables not telling everything?

peedee


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi Jacqui,

I assume that you have refilled LPG at a petrol station. Now the LPG you get there, even if it says "propane", may contain a certain amount of _butane_. For automotive usage this is no problem, as the engine taps the liquid gas at the bottom of the tank via a (heated) "evaporator".

In fact, even "pure" propane from your gas dealer is "polluted" with a (minimal) amount of butane.

As others have said before, butane does not vaporize anymore at the temperatures you describe. So you consume only the propane component and the butane remains in liquid condition at the bottom of your bottle. You then refill (again with a mixture of propane and butane). And consume only the propane again. And refill...

So with each refilling cycle the amount of butane in your bottle increases, thus everytime there is less space left for the next refill.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Hi all,

In the original post the question was asked, "how to warm up the gas bottle.......................

One of my hobbies is home brew of beer and wine, and I use a low level heater to keep the fermenting beer at 75f´ this is a plastic strap with a low level heating wire in it, similat to a heqater blanket for your bed.

I think that this would be an ideal way to gently warm your gas bottle, of course gas and electricity should not be mixed but with a little common sense and an eye to safety I belive it would be safe.

PS just got back from south Portugal and its damed cold at nights there.

Doug.


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Something in the back of the (very) old brain box is beginning to stir about a small vent hole in the regulators to atmosphere and that this should be kept clear, I may be talking a load of rubbish or it may be connected with some other regulator, but the outcome was that it upsets the regulating qualities of the diaphram in the regulator. Do any other engineers out there recall anything?

Ken S


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

There is a small vent hole on a regulator and it is provided to allow gas to escape when the relief valve opens to prevent over pressure. I would have thought if this was blocked you would have too much pressure being delivered to downstream appliances rather than no gas?

I am not a gas engineer Ken just happen to have looked into the workings of a regulator at the time we were having debates about the new regulators which can be used for both propane and butane.

peedee


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## 92046 (May 1, 2005)

*Cold Gas*

Hi, 
I now have LPG but I used to have Butane, and used this at -5c with the use of a hot water bottle, no hot water bottle and very low gas, all the best and good luck.
Colin


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## 89213 (May 16, 2005)

As a matter of interest what pressure setting is regulator are you using? As far as I remember there are 3 different types. A lot of foreign M/Hs use 50 Mbar, which may work better with the gas available over there. Of course I may be talking crap. but there's nothing new in that :roll: 
John


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## 89601 (May 31, 2005)

To me it sounds like a ice problem in the regulator. To insulate it would then increase the problem as the vaporization of the gas decreases the temperature and with some insulation you will get in even colder.
Truma have something called Eis-ex wich is a warming device for the regulator. That may solve the problem.


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## 93135 (May 1, 2005)

I am also suspicuous its Butane in your bottle. I would remove the regulator, turn the bottle upside down and keeping my hands well out of line of fire crack open the valve allowing the fluid to escape. When its stopped blowing out liquid use thick gloves to close the valve (it could be a tad cold) and re-fill with PROPANE.

Not sure if this is in any textbook but .......


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## RobMD (May 9, 2005)

Hi All,

The small hole in the regulator is so that the non-pressure side of the diaphragm is maintained at atmospheric pressure.

A small part of the LPG is relatively non-volatile, and if the cylinder is part refilled each time, this fraction increases, so that even when the cylinder stops supplying gas to burn, if it is shaken there is still liquid in the cylinder.
It may be frowned upon, but webwobins suggestion of emptying the cylinder totally prior to having it refilled is a valid one.

As far as lagging the cylinder is concerned, the drop in temp. is caused internally. In warmer weather, the cylinder is kept at an acceptable temp by the ambient temp., in cold weather the cylinder cannot absorb sufficient warmth from the surrounding air to remain warm enough for Butane to continue evaporating. Propane vapourises at a much lower temp., and should operate OK in our (UK) winters.
If you wanted to help it vapourise, heat would have to be supplied to the cylinder from an external source such as a heated blanket (specialist), or possibly by diverting warm air into the compartment (that may also allow gas into the living spaces). Just lagging the cylinder would not help.


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

*LPG freezing Up-Update fm Gaslow*

Hi All
Thanks for all your help on this post. I have recently been informed that in France their LPG is a 50/50 mix of propane and butane which I had not expected. Ok when it is warm but a nightmare in cold temperatures. This is very frustrating as I believed the point to refillable systems was the ease of use. It looks like we will still have to carry additional bottles to help us through the winter months.

I also made an enquiry to Gaslow here is their response to my query.

"From all the information you have given us, there is no question in our minds that you are exeriencing a build up of butane in your cylinders.

Your e-mail has prompted us to ask questions throughout the industry and it has been confirmed that Autogas in the UK is Propane but in some

European Countries they apparently mix the gas.
There must be gas specification for Autogas used in different European Countries which we are now trying to find.

You are right in trying to keep the cylinders warm and ideally you need to warm them sufficiently (+ 4 degrees) so you can use up the Butane.

For your information. the connection on our cylinder is also used in Switzerland, so plan 'B' is to fit a local propane cylinder which fortunately will have the same connection as your refillable. If you choose the plan 'B' route be very careful when disconnecting the Refill Hoses as they will have liquid gas inside, therefore loosen one connection only and release the gas to atmosphere which will take approximately 1-2 mins.

We are obviously disappointed in the problems you have been experiencing and would appreciate if you would be kind enough to keep us informed of developments as your situation has never arisen before and this will help us give better advice to other users." 1st Feb 2005

The gas saga continues!
Jacqui


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

A great piece of information Jacqui, thanks for taking the trouble to report back on your findings. I am sure many will not be aware of this and it is certainly going to make me think again about using refillable cylinders.
I hope you can now get the problem sorted. 

peedee


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

This is quite informative:

http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/lpg/

30% to 95% (UK) propane! :
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=8

Dave


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## 93135 (May 1, 2005)

For your information, recent research has revelaled that commercial LPG is a mixture of Propane and Butane. In the UK it’s about 95% Propane. 
On the continent it alternates between 40% Propane in the summer and 60% Propane in the winter to allow for the reduced ambient temperatures. 

Scandanavia may well have a dfferent mix but I am not sure about what is is.

Hope this helps


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## 91929 (May 1, 2005)

just returned 
Re holes in the regulators
I have (for my sins) worked on many different air/gas regulators related to various aspects of industrial chemical plant control 
All regulators have a bleed hole on the atmosphee side of the diaphragm to prevent any pressure build up as the diaphragms moves.
shoulg the air hole become blocked, air pressure would increase slightly on thr low pressure side of the diaphragm producing a from of negative feedback - in other words a force opposing the diaphragm movement, hence reducing the change in the controlled air/gas pressure

Keep the air hole clear at all times


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

PamNPete said:


> in other words a force opposing the diaphragm movement, hence reducing the change in the controlled air/gas pressure
> 
> Keep the air hole clear at all times


Thanks. Just to clarify, if the diaphragm cannot move I assume the end result is a reduced flow of gas to appliances then because the valve on the HP side will remain closed?

peedee


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

*Freezing LPG Update*

Thanks Peejay for your help.

Today my hubby dissconected the cylinders and we managed to get them indoors for a few hours, both were still frosted up. Ian then managed to empty the bottles as much as possible, we believe only a few litres remained in them. The cylinders have been refilled tonight. So hopefully we will get more than two days out of them. We are planning to be skiing for at least the next 6 weeks so hope we can get a few days of sun to warm the cylinders and will also have to keep emptying them too. Frustrating though as we are only getting to use 50% of the gas each time and as the Butane accummulates even more we are getting less propane in.

If we find a solution to the problem other than above I will let you know.

Jacqui


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## BERTHA (May 21, 2005)

Hi everyone,

I read with great interest and pride the British approach to trying to resolving issues/problems

May I ask 1 question which I am sure there must be an answer already written and that is, why Butane, I mean, why in Europe do we bother with Butane, what has Butane got that we still use it either on its own or mixed with Propane.
:?: 
H


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## dodger148 (May 9, 2005)

Think its mainly historical, Caravanners(tuggers) mainly appear after easter and go into hibernation around October. A few, and motorhomers tend to have a longer season and realised the benefits of propane in cold weather over butane. There is little point in having the two so we now tend to stick with propane all year


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## fjmike (May 10, 2005)

Not that I know anything but to try and answer Jess's question it all has to do with calorific value ie- Butane will burn hotter for longer so if you only use it in the summer months or indoors then there aint' no problem


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## BERTHA (May 21, 2005)

So, further to FJMikes comments, Butane is better value in normal operating temperatures than propane??

H


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## dodger148 (May 9, 2005)

You wont notice the difference


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Jess said:
 

> May I ask 1 question which I am sure there must be an answer already written and that is, why Butane, I mean, why in Europe do we bother with Butane, what has Butane got that we still use it either on its own or mixed with Propane.
> :?:


Hi Jess,

when refining crude oil both Propane and Butane emerge in approx. the same quantities. So of course the oil companies want to make money out of both of them, so they find ways to sell them.

While for (Winter-)camping purposes Propane is much better suited than Butane, it makes no difference for automotive use. And the LPG (or GPL in France) which is used for the self-refillable gas bottles is meant for driving cars. So it is a mixture of both, where the Butane component is responsible for the problems observed here.

Other ways of selling Butane are cigarette lighters and the blue "Camping-Gaz" bottles.

It is correct that Butane has a slightly higher calorific value than Propane, but this is negligible.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## BERTHA (May 21, 2005)

Thanks Gerhard

So when something sensible like Gaslow comes out with something which on first appearances looks like a possible common denominator for all the different gas bottles types in Europe there is a problem with the raw product that reduces this capability

And remind me, there is no "master" regulator than will suit all? :roll: 

Regards
Hugh


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Jess said:


> And remind me, there is no "master" regulator than will suit all? :roll:
> 
> Regards
> Hugh


There is now and all new vans should now have it fitted but it cannot be retrofitted to older vans because the appliance jets must also match the regulator.

It is an interesting question that you raise which I doubt has been given much thought. New vans with the latest regulator fitted and with refillable bottles should be able to cope with gas mixes but how safe is it on older vans not fitted with the latest regulators and appliance jets? Given that the jets will not match, the burn is probably not very efficient on older vans fitted with refillable bottles?

peedee


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## BERTHA (May 21, 2005)

Thanks Peedee,

I am just going to drop my dealer a quick question on what the set-up will be when I collect my van in a couple of weeks

Hugh


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

Hi all
Just been reading this thread from beginning to end and am so impressed by the informative postings...have learned a lot about gas behaviour. It confirms why I keep returning to this site. Thanks everyone. :lol: 

A couple of years ago I had a swift kontiki in the Hautes Alpes at christmastime, with butane gas (not knowing then that there was anything different!) left burning low all the time and had no problem...(lucky or what!) .. was this due to the very adequately insulated tank housing??? 

Which was also of the reasons I didn't have another Kontiki .... everything was internal. When you stopped to park up, the one inside had to pass out the electric cable, hose etc. 
Only one outside "cupboard".. ...obviously good for gas but not much good for anything else. The problem I had was that the gas outlet on the side of the m/h froze as it came out and built up, so I had this big lump on the side of frozen condensation?? (was it)?

I spoke with one of the reps at the M'h show in B'ham this year and he says they now have more outside cupboards due to feedback, but they may now have a gas problem as mentioned, do you think? any connection?

sugarplum


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

ps Peedee

what do you class as an older m/h? would 2001 be able to have a "master regulator" ?



sugarplum


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## Malc (May 9, 2005)

Hi Sugarplum,
I think you will find that the regulations affected all vans built for the 2004 season onwards, they first started to appear on new Sept 2003 onwards vans. 
Hope this helps.
Malc


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## 89499 (May 25, 2005)

Thanx Malc......no good for me then........just thought it was a good idea....


happy trails

sugarplum


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

The new regualations regarding gas fittings were supposed to have been introduced on new 2003 caravans and motorhomes but due to technical problems it was delayed until 2004. This is why as Malc says, fittings started to appear on 2003 vans. All vans built after 2004 should have the new regulators and appliance jets fitted.

PJ did you get any further answers from Gaslow and would it not be a good idea to make this thread a sticky?

peedee


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