# Baron has Diabetes.



## Baron1

Had a bit of a shock last night, our vet 'phoned at 7.30 pm to inform us that our beautiful boy Baron (Blue Great Dane) has been diagnosed with diabetes.

He has been losing weight for a couple of weeks and also has an insatiable thirst, he has been on Rimadyl for what appeared to be cramps in his legs, on Monday we took him in for a blood test to check that the Rimadyl was not harming his Renal system and the test have shown that he has diabetes.

The vet wants us to take him to Cambridge for further tests and a second opinion but we are worried about the stress this will cause him as he is very nervous at the vets.

Does anyone have any experience of diabetes in dogs?
Do they respond well to treatment or are we putting him through undue stress for limited benefit?


The vet says that it's the first time he has seen it in a Great Dane hence the suggestion for a second opinion.

Mel.

Just noticed this is in sat tv forum, no idea how to change it to pets.


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## aldra

Baron 1

It is treatable and must be treated in much the same way as it is in humans

left untreated then that is a death sentence

loss of weight,excessive thirst, lethargy and often stomach pain are classic symptoms

Take him get the diagnoses confirmed and the treatment started as soon as possible, it can be managed

Aldra


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## inkey-2008

Hope he get treated better than me. 

Andy


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## Suenliam

Sorry to hear about Baron. I have no knowledge of diabetes. However, a friend had a cat with the condition and it was treated with injections for many years - even the cat got used to the regime. Obviously it is dependent on getting it stabilised, but don't be despondent too soon.

All the best

Sue


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## bellabee

We had a Springer bitch who has diabetes. We had to inject her in the scruff of the neck with insulin every day. Not as bad as it sounds because there's so much loose skin at the back of a dog's neck, that she never felt it. It was no problem at all for us to do.
We used to have to check her insulin levels by testing her wee each day. Not so bad collecting wee from a bitch, but could be a bit more 'hit and miss' with a dog, I imagine! Probably a case for long rubber gloves.
She lived for about 2 years after diagnosis and although she stayed thin, she was happy and active. Sadly, we lost her when she was 8 years old. Most of our other Springers have lived to 12-14 years, so the diabetes did shorten her life.
I wish you luck and urge you to start treatment as soon as possible.


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## Baron1

Thank you all for your advice and support, we have cancelled our holiday and are now waiting to hear from the vet.

He wants to do a series of tests on Baron that will probably mean visits to the vets up to four times a day until they work out the correct dosage for the Insulin.

Although Baron is quite old for a Dane (he was eight in March), up until very recently he has been really healthy, his downhill spiral started after he was attacked by another Dane about three months ago which seemed to really shake him up.

He started to lose co-ordination in his hind legs and they also seem weak, if he stands still for a little while his hind legs sag under his weight. There is a condition called "Wobblers" that Danes are prone to but the vet doesn't think it's that.

The vet says that his hind leg problem is probably neurological but could also be connected to the diabetes???

Anyway fingers crossed that the insulin does the trick and helps Baron have a better quality of life than he has at the moment.

Thanks Again
Mel.


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## MrsW

Humans with diabetes can develop a condition called neuropathy where they lose sensation in their extremities. I wonder if the same happens in dogs. (I'm a nurse, know plenty about it in humans but nothing about it in dogs!)


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## Baron1

Thanks MrsW,
Do humans with neuropathy respond well with insulin treatment?

Baron is booked in for his first insulin injection tomorrow morning at 08.30, he will then have blood tests at 12.30, 16.30 and 20.30, providing all seems OK I will be shown how to administer the insulin on Friday morning and he will be continually monitored for the next week.

Here's hoping for an improvement over the coming weeks.

Mel.


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## aldra

Mel,he is so very special

our last dog, long haired German Shepherd had a neuropathology condition in his hind legs

It didn't improve and got gradually worse until he could no longer stand on his rear legs

but we left it until it seemed to be a problem to him and worried about when we needed to make the decision

It worked out one day his stomach twisted, an x ray confirmed it and we said goodbye

but we made ramps for the motorhome and he loved coming with us

you need to ask your vet just what is the prognosis 

and the diabetes is something different, but in your case may cause the symptoms

Keep us posted

Aldra


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## MrsW

Neuropathy is a one way journey in humans. The longer someone is diabetic, the worse it is likely to get, but some people have Type 1 diabetes for 40+ years before neuropathy becomes an issue. Can't make any comment about dogs though and don't know if it has anything to do with Barons loss of use of his back legs.

Just hope your vet can get things sorted for him very quickly.


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## Baron1

Thanks Aldra,
You're right he is very special, but aren't they all.

Baron is our third Dane and they have all had beautiful natures.

We rescued Baron when he was 18 months old and he has been the gentlest and most loving dog you could wish for, without a nasty bone in his body.

When we got him I asked the lady if he was house trained and she said she didn't know as he had never been indoors!
I can honestly say that he has never once made a "mistake" indoors!

He was also very nervous of people at first but now walks up to complete strangers and expects a fuss, much to the concern of some people who have never met him before!

Special....

Fingers crossed for tomorrow.


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## aldra

My fingers and toes are crossed

He looks to be a big, beautiful, gentle giant

Sandra


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## mandyandandy

Hi, My sisters dog has diabetes and they inject him 4 times a day and he is on a special diet. The problem they have is when he goes routing for other titbits and finds things he shouldn't have so walking off lead can be a bit of a problem incase someone has left scraps he shouldn't have around. 

Other than that he is fine and dandy. The vet has been great with her and helps alot with advise and bills of course!!   

If you need any more info please IM me and I can contact her for you. 

Mandy


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## patp

Sorry to hear about Baron. It must be such a worry for you.

A close friend of mine kept her Border Terrier going as a diabetic for ten years. Her vet was amazed.
She had to be absolutely meticulous over his diet. He was put on a good quality complete and it was measured to the last gram and given twice daily. His insulin was given about the same time. She found a way to test his blood rather than his urine as it is a much more acurate way of testing for sugar levels. I think she used a human tester and pricked his paw.


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## Baron1

Hi All,
We have worked out the costs of Barons treatment and it adds up to quite a lot!
On a very low dose of insulin (10 units twice a day) his monthly medication bills will be £400-£500 a month. (Based on the cheapest internet prices for insulin we can find).

If the dose increases the costs will rocket and we are worried that when Barons insurance runs out in November he will be refused cover.

Has anyone had any experience of this situation? 

Mel.


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## aldra

Who are you insured with Mel???

What does it say in the conditions

They are not all sharks especially when you have been with them a while

Cannot speak from experience as I have never made a claim but it goes up every year and over 4 years is double the original monthly rate

Sandra


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## Baron1

Hi Sandra,
Baron's insured with Sainsburys.

Any one condition has a £7,500 pound claim limit with £125 excess.

Last year his renewal went from £43 to £75 per month despite having made no claims up to that point.

I know that he is getting old for a Dane (he was eight in March) and that insurance companies have to cover their backs, but we have paid a lot of money out over the years and now as soon as we start claiming we have been warned that he may be uninsurable at the next renewal date!

How is that fair? 

Mel.


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## patp

It's not fair Mel and it makes me want to spit feathers!!

If you have a "lifetime" policy (which is usually the most expensive one they offer) then you will be covered next year and every year, for the rest of his life, up to the limit for each condition.

If it is a yearly policy then your cover will end *for diabetes* but continue for other conditions not related to diabetes until the new condition reaches the limit.

Would car insurance get away with withdrawing cover if you made a claim? Of course the premium would go up but you would not be left without any cover at all.


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## bellabee

Hi Mel
I really feel for you and am shocked at the cost of treatment for Baron. It's about 15 years since we had the bitch with diabetes, but the cost of treatment for her was negligible. I can't even remember how much it was, but it can't have been much because we were a 'young family' at the time and it would have registered with me if it had been expensive. How can costs have risen to such high levels in that time? 
Sorry I can't help you re the insurance. We've never taken pet insurance as we've always had between 2 and 4 dogs at any one time and have chosen to take the risk rather than pay the premiums. So far, touch wood, the risk has, has paid off.
I do hope you get this sorted out. It's so horrible when you have an ill animal which is dependent upon you.
All Best Wishes
Chris


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## Baron1

Baron had another much smaller dose of insulin this morning and so far all seems OK. Having regular blood tests throughout the day until 20.30 this evening, if all OK then we will start injecting him ourselves tomorrow and fingers crossed he will be on the road to a better life.

How's this for serendipity:

http://www.butcherspetcare.co.uk/butchers/gallery/index.html

Not bad for a poorly dog eh!!

Thanks for everyones support, will keep you posted.

Mel.


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## aldra

He is beautiful Mel

You should use that picture for your Avatar

Butchers is the only dogfood Shadow eats mixed in his All-in-one

A pain on holiday as we have to carry the supplies

Lets hope you have him stabilised on the Insulin and he will improve in leaps and bounds

Sandra


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## patp

Congratulations on the Butchers win.
Glad to hear Baron is settling on his insulin. I remember my friend tinkering for ages to get her boy right.


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## stewartwebr

Hello,

It's not all bad news. Our Border Collie, Pip has been insulin dependant for about 8 years. We inject her 18 units daily given before her breakfast. She is in excellent health and has managed without any issues.

We were lucky to have had a lifetime insurance policy with Tesco who cover us for a total claim of £7500. We are almost at the limit and they have increased the premium each year but the monthly cost is still below what it would be to purchase the insulin, sharps and disposal bins, so we continue to renew.

Pip is know 13 years old and had started to develop typical insulin induced cataracts. The Vet wanted to proceed with surgery in one eye. However, after some research we found a new non surgical solution using eye drops which have been a huge success (bright eye drops)

I hope everything works out okay. If you have any questions or concerns you feel we would be able to help with, dop me a PM

Good luck,

Stewart

Edit - Forgot to add we feed her on Burns Dog Food specifically for diabetic dogs


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## Baron1

Baron is a little better, he is still undergoing regular visits to the vet until we can stabilise his diabetes, as he is such a large dog it is quite hard to find the correct daily dose of insulin.
Hopefully we'll get there soon as he is still losing weight.

Below is a link to a picture in my wifes cookbook of Baron in Yorkshire before he became ill, not a care in the world!

http://www.blurb.co.uk/ebooks/reader.html?e=64005#/4

Sandra,
Glad to hear Shadow is home, plenty of TLC and he'll be up and about in no time.

Rgds Mel.


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## aldra

I love her cookbook and will study it when I have time

He is absolutely gorgeous

did I tell you we had a Gt Dane when we lived in Israel, called Vicky, she wandered in one day, thin as a rake and pregnant
was a beautiful dog once she was fed and the pups were great

Aldra


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## rowley

Glad to hear that Baron is progressing. Best wishes.


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## wworby

*Diabetes in dogs*

We lost our dear schnauzer sam Christmas 2010........miss him loads.

Sam was diagnosed with diabetes and our vet said unless he took his injections, we should put him to sleep. I was distraught....Sam was my first dog, and baby. Sam hated the injections, I hated doing them more! My prayers were answered when our local pet referrals hospital were looking for dogs like sam to trial a new procedure for diabetic dogs. Sam was under their care for 2 years (all treatment at the hospital was free) AND I WASNT INSURED.....I had to learn how to give the injections and Sam tolerated them in the end. The trial sadly didnt work, but Sam was the first dog in the world to be trialled. He was discussed in Seminars and mentioned in papers all around the world. Dick White Referrals (Cambridge) were fantastic. He was VERY special dog.

Diabetes gradually affected other organs, strangely, he also was a bit doddery on his back legs...we put it down to the replaced crutiate ligaments he had at 8..but perhaps it was the diabetes...I dont know..
Sam had good times in between bouts of illness through diabetes....I dont know If I could put another dog through it now - and I CERTAINLY wouldnt cope. Two injections twice a day at the same time morning and night. measured food - Dick White recommended tinned Chappie.

Every dog is different....I wish you luck - all dogs need the chance......hugs...x


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## Hezbez

Sorry to hear about Baron - can I ask what he is fed on?


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## Baron1

Hi Hezbez,
We have changed Barons diet to 800 grams a day of Arden Grange Chicken & Rice for Giant Adults on vets advice, he also has one tin of Butchers Tripe shared out between two of his three meals a day.
He went to the vets last night at 6.00pm and his blood glucose reading was 9.2 which is the best it's been so far, the vet advised to increase his daily dose of insulin to 19 units from this morning (up from 18 UI yesterday).
He is still losing weight, down to 61kg at the moment but we are hoping that now his glucose levels have reduced significantly he will start to gain weight again. (total weight loss atm is approx 24kg).

Fingers crossed for Mondays blood test.

Mel.


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## Hezbez

Arden Grange is a pretty decent quality food. A couple that are really good are Orijen and Fish4dogs.

IMO you want to stay away from the brands which contain a lot of grains (inc. maize). A dog is not really designed for digesting carbohydrates, they have a short digestive tract and a very acidic stomach (PH 1-2), which is better suited to higher levels of protein rather than carbs.

Good luck with getting his blood sugar down. It's such a worry when they are ill.


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## aldra

fingers crossed here too Mel

It does seem to be going in the right direction though

Good for you,keep it up Baron  

Sandra


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## bulawayolass

Easy to deal with just a logistics issue.

You can use a human or the animal Alphatrac reader for glucose. 
To be honest l find no difference between alpat and human glucometer except cost.

We prick the ear vein on the edge of the ear only needs a drop others some one mentioned use a toe but l find ear easier. 

The usual recommend is diabetic food from hills or rcw but chappie is excellent and the only food that l recommend for pancreatitis or diabetic dogs, Poca was on it for several years for her pancreatitis and l know how well it worked any treats and she was rolling around hurting. 
If your pet is stable on other feeds and your vet is happy stick by that just if someone is pushed to the expensive then l always say try Chappie first.


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## zulurita

Fingers crossed for Monday.

Baron seems to be doing well. Keep it up Baron.


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## Baron1

I must admit I was looking at the glucose meters in Boots on Thursday and they are a lot cheaper than dedicated canine ones (£20 as opposed to circa £100).
Does anyone know if the canine ones are calibrated differently to the human ones?

Mel.


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## bulawayolass

Yes a bit different calibration but about 80 to 90% of vets l work at when l locum around the country use human ones and the animal one can be a pain at times to take the drop. For what it measures you may as well stick to human certainly if l ever had a diabetic pet l would have gone for human. And talking to other vet nurses and vets almost all say the same thing. 

Put it this way if he went in for a glucose curve or check at a lot of vets Baron would have the human one used on him and if he went hyper/hypo then it would be that used to do the hourly checks to stabilise him.


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## aldra

Time for an update Mel

How did his readings fare on Monday???

I am really hoping on the upturn

Sandra


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## Baron1

Barons glucose was up again on Monday to 12.1 from 9.2 on Friday on 19UI a day. Vet has recommended 21 UI started on Tuesday. 
Back to the vets on Friday at 6.00pm to see how that goes!.

He is fine in himself and doesn't seem to be sleeping as much during the day, his water intake has also reduced so these, I'm told, are good signs.
Unfortunately the weight is still not increasing and that is our greatest concern at the moment, basically he is not getting the nutrients from his food so he is, in effect, digesting himself.

Again fingers crossed for Friday!!

Sandra, so glad that Shadow is getting back to his naughty self, I will stick another couple of Italian suggestions on later. (sounds rude !!).

Mel.


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## aldra

Mel do you increase the food in line with the glucose readings?

bullawayolass would know more about that

Does sound as though he is moving in the right direction though, his 'highs' have been much higher in the past haven't they?

Will be waiting for the Friday update with crossed everything

Sandra


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## Baron1

Sandra,
We have increased his food slightly trying to get a bit of weight gain, but the vet says we should try to keep everything as stable as possible in order to give a clear indication of the effectiveness of the insulin dose.

His highs have been higher than at present but we are aiming for a reading of between 5 and 8 at 6.00pm, so still a way to go yet, we are just hoping that when we get the dosage right he will start to put on a bit of weight.


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## aldra

Really hoping it will all work out

I feel it will, but its so hard when you just want to give them free reign to eat what they want

in the hope they put back the weight

The vet says Shadow was fine, his ribs covered, but his chest feels like a plucked chicken :lol: :lol: :lol:

But slowly we will get there Shadow and Baron 

Sandra


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## Baron1

I think we're getting there, last nights glucose reading was 8.2 on 21UI.
The best we've ever seen was 6.9 a month ago but we think that may have been a dodgy reading as he's never been anywhere near that since.

The vet has suggested that we put him up to 22UI from this morning and see how he goes, next blood test Monday at 6.00pm.

Just hope he starts to put on a bit of weight!

Mel.


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## aldra

Great news Mel   

I think once you get the insulin stabilised then Baron will start to gain weight

Good for you Baron boy 

Sandra


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## aldra

How was the blood test Mel????

Aldra


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## Baron1

Hi Sandra,
Hope Shadows doing OK?

Barons test on Monday was up again at 11.9, vet has upped his insulin to 24UI starting yesterday morning.
He is quite perky in himself and not sleeping all the time and up for walks but not far atm.
Still no weight gain.
Another blood test on Friday.


Mel.


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## aldra

Shadow is doing well but still very loose

Going to the vet tomorrow to see if there is something that could firm him up a bit

He's not loosing weight though so that's good

Still sounds like Baron is moving in the right direction
 

Aldra


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## Suenliam

Hi both Mel and Sandra - first log on for what seems like ages as we are in France now. So glad both Baron and Shadow are heading in the right direction and I hope the improvement in both continues apace.

Sue


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## aldra

Hi Mel,

How are the blood tests going?

Hoping Baron is continuing to improve

Aldra


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## 100127

Hi Aldra, getting in the swing again, looking after the daughters Lab for a few days.


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## aldra

good practise Bob, yours will be a bit smaller I guess


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## 100127

Yes, a miniature Poodle again me thinks. :roll: :roll:


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## Baron1

Baron collapsed last Wednesday at 10.00pm, his legs just went from under him and he sagged to the floor, thinking he may have gone Hypo we rubbed honey into his gums and rushed him to the emergency vet, she did a thorough examination, blood test 12.8, temp OK, weight gain up by 4.5kg to 65.5 kilos.

She didn't think he had been hypo but could't explain why he'd collapsed, of course as soon as we got to the vets his adrenalin was flowing and he was fine, sods' law.

We have now got our own blood testing kit and are monitoring him frequently, we are aiming for a blood sugar reading of between 5 and 8 for most of the 24 hour period.
Yesterday his tests ranged from 11.4 down to 10.2 and then up to 15.1 at bedtime, he is now up to 28 Units of Insulin a day but we still have a long way to go, I think that we will pass the 34UI that originally took him down to a dangerous blood level of 2.0!!

His vet is, understandably, cautious about upping the insulin dose too fast, but we feel that the risk to his eyesight and general health are high and we would prefer to move slightly faster than we are, but.....we are not vets and can only act on the advice we are given.

Back to the vet Friday for another check and the dose will probably be increased to 30UI. 

And so it goes on.

Mel.


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## aldra

Mel what a frightening experience

Does the amount of food given vary with the amount of insulin given?

I don't now much about Diabetes in dogs, my son in law is a type 1 diabetic

Do hope it will all finally be worked out to leave him stable, its very time consuming for you as well as very worrying

Sandra


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## Baron1

Hi Sandra,
No the food intake and exercise are strictly controlled so that the variables are kept to a minimum whilst we try to find the correct daily dose of insulin.
It seems a very long process and we just want to get him stabilised asap.

He has good and bad days, today is a bad one and he has hardly got out of his bed, yesterday was a good day and he got all his toys out and squeaked them for England!!!

Hope tomorrow is another good one.

Mel.


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## aldra

I hope so too Baron

The stress of it all must be very wearing, its so hard when they are not well and you feel so helpless to make things right

Shadow is not allowed squeaky toys, he has a frog that croaks and a lovely quiet teddy bear that he has had from a pup, some battle scars but holding its own

we are fortunate that Shadow seems to be doing ok, just a bit time consuming on the feeding side to try to get the balance right, but with perseverance both Shadow and Baron will get there I hope 

Sandra


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## Baron1

Baron started a new regime on Saturday, he's now on 2 injections a day of 15 UI each, we have been told to cut out his lunchtime meal and go back to two meals a day at 12 hours apart followed by his jabs.
Don't like to count our chickens but he does seem livelier and dare I say it seems to have gained a bit of weight!!!

We have now got our own blood monitor and are going to do a glucose curve on him tomorrow, basically checking his glucose levels every two hours and charting it on a graph to ascertain how his sugars are over an 18 hour period.
Based on these findings the vet will then adjust Barons insulin accordingly. We will continue doing these curves until he is eventually stabilised.

Fingers crossed!

Mel.


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## aldra

Such good news

I am delighted

a member here sent me some powders to help firm up Shadows stools, and it seems to be working
I've ordered more, not cheap but will enable us to pick up when we go away

cheaper than the vets prescribed which did not work

come on Baron, you can make it   

Aldra


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## Baron1

Good news Sandra!

We are hopefully going away for a week or two fairly locally, West Runton Incleboro Fields CC site on Sunday so that we can get Baron to the vet in an emergency (taking the car with us). It will be a change of scene, we're going stir crazy here.

Hope all goes well for your holiday, when are you off? Don't forget to keep us informed of your travels, I can only holiday vicariously through others at the moment. 

Mel.


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## aldra

Mel enjoy your holiday break

Baron enjoy yours too 

We go on Wed, sail midnight thursday

have ordered Mifi, to arrive tomorrow

If we can source the cards abroad

will be on here pestering all of you

Sandra :lol:


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## 100127

aldra said:


> Such good news
> 
> I am delighted
> 
> a member here sent me some powders to help firm up Shadows stools, and it seems to be working
> I've ordered more, not cheap but will enable us to pick up when we go away
> 
> cheaper than the vets prescribed which did not work
> 
> come on Baron, you can make it
> 
> Aldra


How is Shadow Sandra?


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## aldra

He is doing well Bob

hows your dog sitting going?

bringing back memories and a touch of longing to get your new pup


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## 100127

aldra said:


> He is doing well Bob
> 
> hows your dog sitting going?
> 
> bringing back memories and a touch of longing to get your new pup


Dog sitting has ended, Daughter has reclaimed him.
Still havering though. Glad shadow is getting better.

bob


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## Baron1

RIP Baron Lewis 19-03-04 - 04-08-13

Many thanks to all who contributed to this post when Baron was first diagnosed with diabetes last year, your help was invaluable.

Best Regards 
Mel.


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## Suenliam

Oh dear, I'm so sorry. Baron and you went through the mill, but your persistence gave him so much more time. Be proud of what you did for him. He looks a lovely big softee. 

Run free at the bridge Baron

Sue


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## janet1

So sorry to hear about Baron. You adored him and he wouldn't want you to be sad...so, smile for what you had together.


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## patp

So sorry to hear your sad news.

Run free big boy.


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## jerseyt

so sorry to hear your news RIP Baron x


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