# Should all drivers be forced to carry their licences



## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

An article in the Mail On Sunday today states that :-
"A senior magistrate wants Britain's 38 million drivers to be forced to carry their documents so that they can prove their identity at all times. He says such a requirement will help police and courts prove who was behind the wheel when offences are committed and stop people caught speeding or drink-driving giving false names and addresses."

The fear is that this is a way of introducing an ID card scheme for all.
What are your feelings?

I have no worries about an ID scheme having regularly travelled to the continent for the last 40 years or so and as a matter of course carried identification in the form of my passport.
What's more I've always carried my driving licence and when abroad insurance and vehicle documents

This seems a much cheaper way to introduce an ID system to a large proportion of the adult population if this really is the basis of the proposal.

What do you think?


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

The way I understand it...anyone who doesn't give their name etc when arrested/held isn't released until they do.

And a driving licence can be falsified (as do passports) so all you are doing is shifting the problem......

Society has survived without the need so far so why now?

A criminal will just find another way to beat the system.


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

I think it's a sensible idea, in fact I was in favour of ID cards. With the amount of information we put out there on a voluntary basis, why is everyone hung up about people knowing who we are, especially if, as in the cases stated, we've caused someone injury or loss.

If you carry a store loyalty card, a credit/debit card, use Facebook/Twitter, have a mobile phone or use mobile broadband, use a cash point, use any carpark where ANPR cameras operate or drive anywhere, anyone working for those people knows all your personal data or where you are exactly anyway, so why worry about another bit of plastic in your pocket! 

Face up to it, the issues raised by ID cards etc. went out of the window a long long time ago!


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Any such scheme would almost certainly become a money spinner.

Imagine the nice little fine for forgetting to carry your ID. £100 a go perhaps? And the inconvenience of being detained till your identity is established because either you would need to have sufficient cash on you to pay a fine or they would need to verify that you are who you say you are to ensure you could be traced if you failed to pay the fine.

That's just a practical objection. More important to me is that I would consider such a requirement to be a serious intrusion and an undue and unwarranted burden on me.

It would be a backdoor to ID cards. Being able only to establish the ID of people who drive would soon become insufficient for those who want to monitor us.

Those who like the idea should go ahead and carry their ID if they want to, Alan.


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## Bill_H (Feb 18, 2011)

Do I need hold my licence up to the windscreen when I'm flashed by a speed camera?


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## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

*Big brother is watching!*

Having lived with ID books all my adult life, and carrying DL I don't have a problem.

In this day and age when integrity has gone down the toilet largely, it's a benefit and a form of protection for law-abiding citizens. Sadly though forgery will be hot on the heels of any introduction of ID cards, and an increase in fraud at issuing offices.

Far greater risk, IMHO, of an invasion of privacy is the internet and Facebook etc.

Just yesterday while searching for a MH valet service what should come up top of the list on Google, but my very own post on MHF.

Further point - have you ever tried googling your own name? No secrets here - be careful what you say/do.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

*Re: Big brother is watching!*



HermanHymer said:


> Having lived with ID books all my adult life, and carrying DL I don't have a problem.
> 
> In this day and age when integrity has gone down the toilet largely, it's a benefit and a form of protection for law-abiding citizens. Sadly though forgery will be hot on the heels of any introduction of ID cards, and an increase in fraud at issuing offices.
> 
> ...


Its not about carrying ID (most people do already).....lets say you forget your wallet when you pop to the shops and get stopped...£100 fine please....'But officer I just forgot it'....does it also include a criminal record for forgetting it??

Who will have the power to look at it?? the rent a cop who works in Tesco?? the traffic warden?? you start giving power to people who shouldn't have power!! Look across the pond at America, their country is in turmiol because of the same thing.

Facebook etc can be private if you have your setting right

People fought in wars for our freedom against a dictator that made its people carry papers and even have tattoo's so they could be identified whenever asked.

No matter how you spin it....it's the exact same thing.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

In France we are obliged to carry driving license and vehicle log book (carte grise).

I don't see anything wrong with it apart from French driving licenses being twice the size of credit cards.

Ray.


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## Spiritofherald (May 18, 2012)

I'm in suport of anything that helps, even if only a little, in keeping criminals from nicking our motors. I've got a photo license and it's almost always (but not always) with me when I'm driving. I wouldn't want to be penalised purely for not carrying it, but if I am stopped for any reason and can't prove my identity then I would expect to be investigated t prove it's my vehicle etc.

No laws broken then nothing to fear.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

Criminals DON'T CARE.....guns are banned in this country yet we still have killings by guns.

These stupid little rules only make life harder for the law abiding guy.


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## tonyt (May 25, 2005)

Don't most of us already keep our photo licence in our wallet?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Spiritofherald said:


> No laws broken then nothing to fear.


Oops, thanked by accident, meant to quote.

No laws broken then nothing to fear, has to be one of the most ridiculous contentions we hear trotted out. Thousands of innocent people get into all kinds of difficulties all the time. At best it's a waste of time and money proving your innocence and at worst you are unable to do that and suffer for some wrong you haven't done.

Bigcats is quite right. God knows who would end up being given the power to ask you to produce ID. Look at the way Councils have been following people about to prove petty offences, looking in bins, fining people for putting them out on the wrong day or for putting the wrong stuff in them.

We need to call a halt to this sort of tripe, there can't be laws for everything, Alan.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

As long as it isn't a 'requirement' to carry ID, then I'd have no issues, especially as most of us carry our licence with us anyway. To make it a requirement to carry would need a big change in how we view ID documents.

In the US, most carry ID of some kind or other as it is often required for credit card transactions over a certain limit.

Most women carry their licence with them in that Black Hole they call their handbag, it's blokes that have an issue, as you either have to carry your wallet or get a special ID card holder.

Peter


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## Jimbost (Aug 25, 2012)

We're free! Well we are are we not? ANPR cameras that check our vehicle movements. Banks that monitor our debit/credit card purchases. A voting and tax system that makes us declare where where we live. My business is required by legislation to publish my home address. I gave up worrying about who knows what I do and made sure that what I need to do is protected from fraud as much as possible. 

It will not belong before we get chipped at birth!


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## MrsW (Feb 8, 2009)

I am a law-abiding citizen and have no worries about carrying my licence and my passport (live in France so required to do so). I carry both whenever I leave my home.


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

What do the UK police do now if they need to find out who you are? 

The reality TV shows seem to suggest the only issue occurs if the info given by the driver doesn't match up, ie they're lying. The sort of person who perhaps would seek out a fake ID?

I wish our licence was just one credit card sized piece though, then I'd carry it more often.


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## Patrick_Phillips (Aug 17, 2006)

bigcats30 said:


> Criminals DON'T CARE.....guns are banned in this country yet we still have killings by guns.
> These stupid little rules only make life harder for the law abiding guy.


I am with you on this one, Bigcats30!

I would say criminals would be in favour of ID cards. It keeps the little guy off your territory until they are big enough to have a proper forgery made.

And, of course, when everyone thinks an ID card proves who you are it is so much easier for the criminal to be who thy want to be at any given time.

Patrick


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

I carry ID everywhere. It is a reduced to credit card size scanned copy of my passport.
It also contains details of my medication, and ICE contact.

One never knows when they will be required, other than when an offence is commited.
dave p


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## Zozzer (Aug 13, 2006)

I think the photo driving license shoul be changed to a Smartcard.
It could then be used to authorise the vehicle to be started by the key, an onboard computer could record all drivers using the vehicle. The smartcard could record all the vehicles the license holder has driven


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

Dave, does your In Car Entertainment break down so often you need to carry a contact number?


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

I agree with the principle and accept it will sooner or later, when our political masters have the courage of their convictions, become a reality so that we must carry a valid ID. On the other hand like many other people, I forget things and lose things, for this I will no doubt be punished.
My cats carry a permanent ID that allows them to use an electric cat-flap, travel abroad and be recognised by a vet.
Alan


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## BrianJP (Sep 17, 2010)

Ok so you are out in your car and some scumbag hits you. He has no Licence on him and no insurance details either are you happy. Perhaps you are ,but I am not.I want his ID etc etc . 
I spend much of my time in Spain where it is mandatory to carry ID cards and also driving licences. I really cannot see the problem especially as I spent much of my working life in an industry where it was the norm to carry and display ID.
Anyone who objects suerely has something to hide. I always have my DL with me when out driving ( force of habit) Lets get real everyone this is the 21st century .


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*insurance*

I like the idea of having to have your insurance details in teh corner of the windscreen, like a tax disc.

No disc, no insurance.

Yes they can be copied etc, but easier to check.

TM


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## BrianJP (Sep 17, 2010)

grizzlyj said:


> What do the UK police do now if they need to find out who you are?
> 
> The reality TV shows seem to suggest the only issue occurs if the info given by the driver doesn't match up, ie they're lying. The sort of person who perhaps would seek out a fake ID?
> 
> I wish our licence was just one credit card sized piece though, then I'd carry it more often.


I did see recently on a Gov website that it is likely that the paper licence could be phased out soon


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## Spiritofherald (May 18, 2012)

bigcats30 said:


> These stupid little rules only make life harder for the law abiding guy.


I disagree - it would help police establish genuine identity rather than someone giving their mates details. Okay, a professional criminal could forge doucments, but not the dumb-arsed uneducated teenagers that commit a high proportion of petty car crime.


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Unless you have something to hide, why should it be a problem?.

As others on here do, I now live in France and as they have said it is compulsory here, the French are serial complainers but not about being identified.

So I guess unless you are a would be criminal or perhaps less than legal in your activities (or maybe a conspiracy theorist) where is the harm?


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## richardjames (Feb 1, 2006)

tonyt said:


> Don't most of us already keep our photo licence in our wallet?


And look at the problem in getting a new one 8O 8O 8O


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I haven't carried a wallet since I was about 15. Just don't like them in my pocket. Ditto driving licence. I found that carrying them in my pocket broke the plastic bit over a few months, Alan.


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## Patrick_Phillips (Aug 17, 2006)

BrianJP said:


> I spend much of my time in Spain where it is mandatory to carry ID cards and also driving licences.


I have a Spanish Residencia -which has it uses - but current law states that you cannot photocopy it and you must carry the A4 size sheet of 90g paper with you! You see, it is cheaper for the authorities than the old credit card photo ID!

And what should I do if it gets wet, burned or just plain lost? Stay home until the Spanish bureaucracy gets around to giving me a new one or should I just quietly sit in a Spanish jail while they verify that I am who I say I am.

And Spain is a comparatively benign state!

Patrick


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

I have no objection to carrying such things in France and do so in both France and the UK - one difference is that in France the number of stops by police seems to be very low whereas some people in the UK seem to get stopped and asked for details quite frequently in the UK - under the "stop and search" rules? :?

In France the insurance and the _Controle Technique_ (MoT equivalent)must be displayed on the windscreen and the _Carte Grise_ (registration certificate) must be carried in the vehicle - that to me seems totally sensible but sadly is not required in the UK........

I would have some concerns about making it a criminal offence since it could well end up as yet another fund raiser like speed cameras in funny places (OK if you don't speed there is no problem - the same goes with carrying ID  ).

As regards carrying ICE (In Case of Emergency details) - it was never something we spent time looking for while working with the ambulance service - there are more important things to do than check for such details in the phone, or the car..... (is it that person's phone or that person's details? What about if the car has been lent to someone else quite legally?).......... Our concern was keeping the patient alive and in as good a condition as possible......

So yes, I have no problem with carrying it vountarily but would have some concerns about such a thing being abused if it was compulsory....... Maybe that's due to too much press coverage of alleged abuses of such privileges by those in authority....... (and that is not me having a go at the police......  )

but it would have to be carried and not left in the vehicle since there is always the risk of some low-life stealing the vehicle and the ID........ 

my difficulty with the questions are the word "forced" i.e. legally required to, that to me is where the problems start and there is no chance of submitting, *yes, but it should be voluntary.........*

Dave


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## Patrick_Phillips (Aug 17, 2006)

Penquin said:


> In France the insurance and the _Controle Technique_ (MoT equivalent)must be displayed on the windscreen and the _Carte Grise_ (registration certificate) must be carried in the vehicle - that to me seems totally sensible but sadly is not required in the UK........


Not now needed - the police can get your insurance, tax and MOT details from just from the number plate - provided the plates are genuine, of course!

That suits me fine - never could seem to lay my hands on them or remember to take them to the police station in time! The "good ole days, huh?"

Patrick


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## leseduts (Jun 3, 2008)

I have no problem with carrying my driving licence and other vehicle paperwork, like others I have to do it in France. My problem is that I hate carrying a handbag, but I have to do in France as I do not have pockets to carry things. I do not fancy taking the dog to the woods in the car and having to carry anything except a lead and poo bags.


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## CPW2007 (Aug 17, 2007)

I voted "Yes, and everyone should carry ID". Why?

'Cos I used to carry ID when I spent 23 years in the Army and wear a photo ID 5 days a week at work. So you see, it's kind of a "natural thing" for me and doesn't bother me in the slightest  Too many people get far too uptight about the "Big Brother" environment in my opinion.

Regards

Chris


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

All HGV drivers, and PSV drivers have to by law carry their license and digi-card when they are behind the wheel of their work vehicle now anyway, so what's the problem with everyone doing it? It's an offence not to, with a fine and points on the license if you don't. 

And anyone relying on their facebook settings for privacy is in for a big shock! To get past all you need do is click onto a mutual friend page, who does have access permission and view everything through theirs. go do! Scare your kids when they find out you know what they're up to. On second thoughts, don't it might scare you more!!


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Scenario:

"Good evening Sir. 
Just a routine stop because we noticed that one of your sidelights is not working.
May we see your driving licence/insurance/MOT?"

If you show the documents to them there and then the response is likely to be:

"Thank you Sir, please fit a new bulb as soon as reasonably possible.
Have a good evening."

You are soon on your way.

No documents?

Closer inspection of the vehicle, details laboriously taken, requirement to present documents at police station of choice within three days.

Delay and inevitably dark and pouring with rain.

*It is a no-brainer as far as I am concerned.*

I am *not* suggesting carrying ID should be *mandatory* it's just that it is so practicable to do so.

I am rarely without some form of ID (my photo driving licence) about my person.
Sometimes I forget, and I feel uncomfortable.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

Spiritofherald said:


> bigcats30 said:
> 
> 
> > These stupid little rules only make life harder for the law abiding guy.
> ...


So what happens if its fake/copy/forged......the Police have achieved exactly the same as not carrying ID. Criminals won't care that you have to carry ID seeing as they don't care its illegal to shoot someone/rob/rape/Fill in crime here.

And again as no one seems to understand.....Currently UNLESS you are breaking the law you do not have to give your details to a Police officer!! (he will help you by telling you that you need/don't need to tell him)

If you ARE breaking the law if you DON'T give your details to the Police officer you are then detained until you either give them (and they are checked) or the Police find out who you are.

So there is NO NEED for ID's because the Police can hold you for not giving your details. ( you have no right to ask for someones details no matter how important you think you are).

The Police aren't stupid they don't just let you go because you said your name was David Cameron....THEY CHECK.

So its a pointless waste of money.....and another way of fining someone for not carrying another card/piece of paper


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

It seems to me that there are a good few on here who would be quite happy to be chipped at birth so they can be monitored all their lives wherever they are.

For me the objection to this kind of thing is that it's obtrusive and inconvenient.

Some have said that if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear.

Let me turn that round. If they don't suspect us of a crime, what we do, where we go and who we are is not their business. For me that's a line in the sand which I believe they have no right to cross. 

I don't think constantly monitoring or identifying everyone is a reasonable crime prevention measure, Alan.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Patrick

Sorry but you are not correct in your post.

Police can tell if there is insurance IN FORCE for any particular vehicle but the only way you can determine if the DRIVER is insured for that vehicle is to demand production of the relevant insurance certificate.

If you borrow your mates car he might only have it insured for himself and his missus, so how does Plod know if YOU are insured without requiring YOU to prove that any insurance you have covers you to drive that vehicle??

Personally my Driving licence is always in my wallet and I never go out (in the car or MH) without 

The poll result is a little surprising with the majority being IN FAVOUR of having to carry driving licences, we (nearly) all carry bank/cash cards with us as its almost impossible to function without them these dsays, so whats the difference??. 

Many countries require driving licences to be carried at all times when driving and no-one seems to get on their high horse about it when they travel there do they :roll: ??


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

snipped


Mrplodd said:


> so whats the difference??.


The bit of paper that very much isn't up to living in my pocket, that we're told must be carried.

I could leave it, the V5 and the insurance certificate in the glovebox but that would be a nice find for a thief. If the certificate is a must to see if the driver is covered then so must the paper counterpart.

I have the smallest wallet I can find with a few notes and a couple of cards, and if the Mrs is with me not even that. Door key and car key only, or less, is my ideal


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

So, what do the people who object to carrying the license, or have small wallets, (!) do when abroad and you are legally required to carry them?


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## Patrick_Phillips (Aug 17, 2006)

Mrplodd said:


> Patrick
> 
> Sorry but you are not correct in your post.
> 
> Police can tell if there is insurance IN FORCE for any particular vehicle but the only way you can determine if the DRIVER is insured for that vehicle is to demand production of the relevant insurance certificate.


See, there you are. That is the difference between a rank amateur and the professional. I had quite overlooked that aspect!

Patrick


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

Annsman said:


> So, what do the people who object to carrying the license, or have small wallets, (!) do when abroad and you are legally required to carry them?


Not just small  Smallest I can find!!

If I have to carry my passport and licence, or anything else, I will. I'm not some sort of subversive with something to hide, I just don't like carrying stuff I don't need to.

I know who I am, and the day that changes I'll carry some ID


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

Mrplodd said:


> Patrick
> 
> Sorry but you are not correct in your post.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but you are wrong......Police have power to hold that vehicle (and you) until you prove that you are insured to drive that vehicle putting the pressure on you and not the Police.........The Officer can decide to either give you a producer or impound the car until proof in obtained. I know this as fact as It's happened to me and the officer explained what he could do and what I can do (and a very nice chap he was to).

I don't get on my high horse about carrying the relevant documents in other countries because its just that, some one elses country, and I abide by their laws....as I expect them to abide by ours. So no need to roll your eyes.....

Currently if your cannot produce said documents/evidence of whatever you've been told to produce......the vehicle will be impounded (at your cost) and if you still fail to give proof then the vehicle will be sold!!! (again at your cost)

Far better deterrent that having to carry a card (that can be forged/faked).


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## plasticplumber (Nov 6, 2008)

I had my eye scanned for access to secure areas when working in the security printing industry. There is no reason that this should not be done for all identification purposes and portable scanners carried by police linked to a database which then shows the photo of the scanned person. There would then be no need to carry any ID and I cannot see any argument against it. It does not even remove the scrotes and thieves rights as it does not involve DNA or fingerprints which the aforementioned may leave behind. You need eyes to drive and cannot forget them. The technology exists and could be implemented when driving licences or othe identification such as pasports ar issued


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Resistance is useless, you will be assimilated.


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

bigcats30 said:


> Criminals DON'T CARE.....guns are banned in this country yet we still have killings by guns.
> 
> These stupid little rules only make life harder for the law abiding guy.


No I don't agree. 
These stupid little rules only make life slightly inconvenient for the law abiding guy but they make life far very difficult for those who are not law abiding.
Those in power have many tools already in use to keep an eye on us i.e. Mobile phone positioning and tracking, all phone calls are scanned by GCHQ, CCTV and number plate recognition cameras everywhere. We would lose no freedom that we have not already lost by having to carry an ID card.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

Maybe they should tattoo us next........Worked for the Germans


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

bigcats30 said:


> Maybe they should tattoo us next........Worked for the Germans


Sorry but that is rather a pointless thing to say.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

BillCreer said:


> bigcats30 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe they should tattoo us next........Worked for the Germans
> ...


You are singling out a group of people

In this case where the majority are law abiding citizens yet you are forcing ALL to conform because of a few.

Some old crusty idiot thinks that a piece of plastic will ensure all criminals will now abide to a law.......nope doesn't work (all ready a proven fact).

Even with the current threat of removal and sale of the vehicle (at the cost of the owner/driver) is not a deterrent so people think a bloody bit of plastic will be....misguided and blind comes to mind.

And once again (as most hair brain schemes) the cost will hit your pocket (Cause the bloody government won't pay).


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Forget it bigcats, you are talking to the Borg,


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

BillCreer said:


> bigcats30 said:
> 
> 
> > Criminals DON'T CARE.....guns are banned in this country yet we still have killings by guns.
> ...


Its NOT the carrying of an ID card thats the problem..........it's the fine you will suffer if you forget (you know like you forget your keys/wallet/watch) how does £100 quid sound?? what about a criminal record also.....but officer I'm a law abiding man and I just left the house in a rush and forgot it....tough.....they have figures to keep and you've just boosted their monthly figures.

THATS the problem. Thats where the law abiding man gets caught up in this stupid little law.


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

bigcats30 said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> > bigcats30 said:
> ...


You'll have to explain the "singling out a group of people " to me.

You have a very simplistic view of how the world works. 
Do you think there is a difference between the money the Government has and the money in your pocket? 
The government was democratically elected to spend money that comes out of your pocket because that is all the money that is available to them.
The Government was democratically elected to take measures that collectively combine to protect the "Collective".


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

BillCreer said:


> bigcats30 said:
> 
> 
> > BillCreer said:
> ...


Singling out a part of the population.....do we include car drivers only?? or all motor vehicles.....pushbikes use the road and have accidents with cars so do they have to carry some form of ID in case of an accident.....what about people on electric bikes!

So carrying a driving licence (because the law says so) protects you from what exactly??

They make travelers carry passports (this is law) to any country in the world.......yet it doesn't stop people blowing up planes or flying them into buildings.....and these passports have to be shown numerous times BEFORE getting in the plane...and it STILL doesn't work. (people will ignore this fact because it doesn't fit in with their argument.....human nature)

Not very good at protecting this carrying a piece of plastic really is it!

I'm sure someone will say a passport is different.....but its not, its a document thats suppose to prove who you are if asked for by the Police etc.

I may be simplistic......yet it seems I'm the one that can see these already used measures failing to protect. (but maybe what we have done is looked like we've done something so people can say....well we did this)


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## Bill_H (Feb 18, 2011)

I always carry a small pocket morror with me at all times.
When I'm asked to identify myself, I pull it out of my pocket, look into it and say 'yes, that's me'


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Bill_H said:


> I always carry a small pocket morror with me at all times.
> When I'm asked to identify myself, I pull it out of my pocket, look into it and say 'yes, that's me'


Along the same light-hearted vein (am I allowed?)

When asked for my date of birth I have sometimes replied (not to police) that I only have 'hearsay evidence' of that - my Mother registered the home birth some 2 weeks after. :wink:

Geoff


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Like all these requirements it only makes life more complicated for law abiding folks and those that wnat to break the law eitehr ignore it or will have false DL.

So no I don't accpet the need or that it will help one jot. It's just one more step towards the state having control over the people.


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

So what would those that dis-agree so strongly suggest?

Basically expand the viewpoint of the most vocal and we will be left with anarchy!

Perhaps that is what they think they would like, until it became reality, then it's survival of the strongest, until they take over and introduce CONTROLS.

Simplistic maybe


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

If you can think back to about before yellow lines and half a crown a gallon of petrol.
We have seen some amazing advances in technology but life is more controlled and curtailed. We are no longer 'free'.
We now have incredible vehicles compared to then but now have to belt up, service when told, have rounded edges, air bags all round us, generally all the same shape and if some component fails that causes more fumes it stops.

Television has also come along way from the square boxes and two channels.
We now have cinema type screens and 500 channels. But apart from most progs are repeats, commercials rule the transmissions, we can see killing, blood and gore in hospital and violent movies but can't show blood in real life on the news. Or a nipple.

Computers and nuclear power were going to revolutionize our lives.
Some countries are decommissioning their nuclear power stations and we are all 'tied' to a wi-fi signal. Manufacturers bring out a so called 'new' model almost every year (3 months) and phase out the old so we are forced to buy, or suckered into buying to boost their profits.

So much for progress.

Ray.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

eurajohn said:


> Basically expand the viewpoint of the most vocal and we will be left with anarchy!


I must stop thanking by accident.

What an incredible and completely unfounded accusation.

I do enjoy it when people make up nonsense and then put it into the mouths of those with whom they disagree, Alan.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

eurajohn said:


> So what would those that dis-agree so strongly suggest?
> 
> Basically expand the viewpoint of the most vocal and we will be left with anarchy!
> 
> ...


You are trying for a perfect society.......it doesn't exist, it can NEVER exist.....Hence why there is still crime (and always has been).

As I said in my previous post (which I said people will ignore).....the passport system currently used still doesn't work and has been round for years and you think making people carry their licence will work......yet you fail to bring that up. Please explain to me how carrying a licence will work?????

The police have enough power to deal with these idiots that drive with no insurance/licence....ie take the car away and sell it and send them a bill...... its working because the number of none insured drivers has dropped....fact


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Alan bit strong but if that's the way you interpret it, then so be it.

What I was really trying to get across (in my opinion), is, in this age whether you agree or not, they that control our lives will continue to do so and the suggestion of having to carry your driving licence (which is the element of the OP that appears to have caused most of the replies) is relatively benign.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

eurajohn said:


> Alan bit strong but if that's the way you interpret it, then so be it.
> 
> What I was really trying to get across (in my opinion), is, in this age whether you agree or not, they that control our lives will continue to do so and the suggestion of having to carry your driving licence (which is the element of the OP that appears to have caused most of the replies) is relatively benign.


So your answer is....well they already control some of our lives (well actually they don't) so here have some more.


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Bigcats, I'll choose to ignore the other aspects of your previous rants and focus on your final comment of the last one, where you mention that the number of un-insured drivers is decreasing, one argument for that will be that with the technology including number plate recognition that allows the authorities to identify and act on such offenders is the reason. (not sue if this is fact  )


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

eurajohn said:


> Alan bit strong but if that's the way you interpret it, then so be it.


Sorry you think so John, but I don't think it's fair to make stuff up.

As to benign, maybe so but it's part of a constant drip and I think it needs to be stopped, Alan.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

eurajohn said:


> Bigcats, I'll choose to ignore the other aspects of your previous rants and focus on your final comment of the last one, where you mention that the number of un-insured drivers is decreasing, one argument for that will be that with the technology including number plate recognition that allows the authorities to identify and act on such offenders is the reason. (not sue if this is fact  )


But what do you do when the number plate is a copy of someone elses vehicle? (which already happens with ANPR and innocent people are accused)

So we've all paid for the privilege of carrying our driving licence electronic number plates...and the system doesn't work.....waste of money if you ask me because only criminals will break the law (the minority).

So your freedom has got tighter and the criminals life hasn't changed. Not really progress is it.


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

Number plates are a good example in that I now need to take the V5 into something like a Halfords before I can get an official number plate made for my car, even if my car is parked within view of the Halfords. I have no idea what that is supposed to prevent.

For a new plate to be official it now has to have the name of the company who made it on the front so its traceable if its illegal in some way. But its cheaper to get a number plate from the likes of Ebay, possibly without the makers ID (which can be so small you need to be up close to be able to see it), so its really entirely possible to duplicate someone else's plate to fool the ANPRs and speed cameras. £10 well spent for those who see insurance and tax as optional, but another little pain for those who do things properly.

And even today if your licence gets stolen thats a very good tool for someone to clone "you" and run up credit, destroying your credit history and taking years to sort out (so I'm told at least).


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## Bill_H (Feb 18, 2011)

grizzlyj said:


> Number plates are a good example in that I now need to take the V5 into something like a Halfords before I can get an official number plate made for my car, even if my car is parked within view of the Halfords. I have no idea what that is supposed to prevent.
> 
> For a new plate to be official it now has to have the name of the company who made it on the front so its traceable if its illegal in some way. But its cheaper to get a number plate from the likes of Ebay, possibly without the makers ID (which can be so small you need to be up close to be able to see it), so its really entirely possible to duplicate someone else's plate to fool the ANPRs and speed cameras. £10 well spent for those who see insurance and tax as optional, but another little pain for those who do things properly.
> 
> And even today if your licence gets stolen thats a very good tool for someone to clone "you" and run up credit, destroying your credit history and taking years to sort out (so I'm told at least).


Two of my local car accessory shops sell both the self adhesive 'plates' and the stick on numbers/letters.
I asked how they were allowed to sell them when you should need your V5 to get plates, they explained that they didn't sell plates, but sold reflective oblongs strips and seperate letteres/numbers - all of which happen to be the same size and shape as DVLA approved numberplates. 
So, it's easy to get a false or copied plate, post your vehicle reg number and I'll get a set made up and rush through a few speed cameras for you to show how easy it all is for anyone determined to break the law, I'll even do it with my licence in my pocket if that helps.


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

Bill_H said:


> So, it's easy to get a false or copied plate, post your vehicle reg number and I'll get a set made up and rush through a few speed cameras for you to show how easy it all is for anyone determined to break the law, I'll even do it with my licence in my pocket if that helps.


:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

The only law that seems to be properly and consistently thought out is the Law of Unintended Consequences.


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

I have not read the previous seven pages: I have been away so this may have been commented on before:-

I have to send my licence to the DVLA every year to renew my bus driving entitlement. They usually keep it for several months therefore I am unable to have it with me at all during that time.

Harvey


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

erneboy said:


> eurajohn said:
> 
> 
> > Basically expand the viewpoint of the most vocal and we will be left with anarchy!
> ...


As I have said before it unethical to selectively edit a when quoting someone as it misrepresents what they are saying.

I then admire your arrogance when you accuse someone of "making up nonsense"

What eurojon originally said was fair comment and absolutely true


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

erneboy said:


> eurajohn said:
> 
> 
> > Basically expand the viewpoint of the most vocal and we will be left with anarchy!
> ...


As I have said before it unethical to selectively edit a when quoting someone as it misrepresents what they are saying.

I then admire your arrogance when you accuse someone of "making up nonsense"

What eurojon originally said was fair comment and absolutely true


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Hello Bill.

I chose to deal with one aspect of John's post. Had I not quoted only the point I was referring to my post would not have been clear.

In no way did I misrepresent what he said or change his meaning. You contend that I did so perhaps you would care to explain? Alan.


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

erneboy said:


> Hello Bill.
> 
> I chose to deal with one aspect of John's post. Had I not quoted only the point I was referring to my post would not have been clear.
> 
> In no way did I misrepresent what he said or change his meaning. You contend that I did so perhaps you would care to explain? Alan.


Hi Alan,

When you quote part of persons full statement, as indeed I also did, you are taking it out of context. 
Etiquette demands that you leave the statement complete and allow others to judge if they agree with your interpretation.

You obviously thought he was talking to you and said:-

"I must stop thanking by accident.
What an incredible and completely unfounded accusation.
I do enjoy it when people make up nonsense and then put it into the mouths of those with whom they disagree, Alan."

You have to allow others to judge your interpretation and I have to say I didn't see anything offensive in what he said or why it should have rattled your cage.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I didn't think he was addressing me at all Bill. I thought his comment was aimed at those who didn't share his view. In fact that is exactly what I said.

As to quoting in full, I disagree with you. If, for instance someone posts 1,000 words and I want to address one or two points it would not be clear which points I was addressing if I quoted the whole post.

In fact there wouldn't be much point in having the quote facility if we were always replying to the entire post. We may as well simply say, "In reply to Bill, I would make the following comments."

Alan.


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

I had promised myself I would not contribute further to this thread.

However as usual others make assumptions about your views and beliefs, which are not necessarily correct.

Believe it or not I don't have any strong views or opinions on this subject, I just can't see / understand why some get so animated about it, I can see that such proposals could be viewed as the thin end of the wedge but hey ho what the F****.


Further to that the most prolific voice (not aimed at you Alan) from this and other threads they have contributed to leads me to the assumption (I know it's wrong to assume) they have a natural tendency to rail against authority and are very opinionated and always believe their view is the correct one and if challenged will choose to selectively edit and denounce what suits them, whilst not addressing all elements.

Point of note the originator of the post has not made one single response.

This will definitely be my final response on this one.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

'Rail against authority'.....because a stupid idea won't work??

What a ridiculous statement.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

People post their opinions, others may disagree and attempt to persuade them that another point of view can or even should be taken.

In most cases this won't change anyone's mind but at least it explores the topic, in detail and with luck draws out all, or at least most of the salient points.

Discussion of this sort may be useful for any "don't knows". Just occasionally exploring a topic in detail does change someone's mind. 

I have changed my mind a few times as a result of discussion. But what I find most valuable is that by reading all that is posted I can learn how others think on many topics.

On any topic relating to erosion of personal choice and freedoms I do hold strong views. I don't object to the introduction of new laws for good reasons, but, and here is the most important bit for me, they must be likely to be effective, they must be well written to avoid misuse and must not confer undue powers on those who should not have them.

Let's not forget that Government is the servant of the people, at least so we are told.

I say thank goodness for the vocal few. How many scandals would have remained hidden had not some single stubborn person or small group kept hammering away till the truth emerged?

I can't do better than to quote Edmund Burke "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

Alan.


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

bigcats30 said:


> 'Rail against authority'.....because a stupid idea won't work??
> 
> What a ridiculous statement.


Sorry but I think that and other comments you have made put you in the "Do Nothing" catagory.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

BillCreer said:


> bigcats30 said:
> 
> 
> > 'Rail against authority'.....because a stupid idea won't work??
> ...


Nice reply....After being shown facts that carrying a licence won't make a blind bit of difference (otherwise all countries would adopt it after seeing it work in countries that already do) all you can come out with is that......nice valid grown up response.

Police have all the power they need.....they can get all the info they want from a phone call, can remove the vehicle on the spot and detain a person for not giving/giving false info.

They have a network of cameras that check vehicle regs on entering pretty much any village/town/city and can instantly know if a vehicle is illegal or not.

Do you really think carrying a licence (that can be faked) work any better?? as I said small mindness because you can't see the bigger picture.

So until you actually come up with a decent argument for, instead of just saying 'anyone who doesn't agree is a criminal/has something to hide/hates authority/does nothing......

I've been a Soldier for over 22 years ...yep I hate Authority and do nothing....or I just like seeing people being free in their own country, after all lots of men and women have died for that enjoyment.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

BillCreer said:


> Sorry but I think that and other comments you have made put you in the "Do Nothing" catagory.


e, by the way, category. Isn't spell checker wonderful?

Oh Bill, can't you think of anything worthwhile to say?

Childish one liners or insults cut the mustard, do they?

I am sure bigcats won't mind if I change sides and help you, he seems to be able to find arguments to advance all on his own.

I enjoy the cut and thrust of discussion but I hate to see someone who can't cope getting tied in knots.

Let me know if you need help. Won't you? Alan.


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

bigcats30 said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> > bigcats30 said:
> ...


Sorry but you have shown little but you own opinion and proved nothing.
The Majority of readers on this thread don't agree with you. Doesn't that tell you something?

Thanks for the "childish" spelling lesson Alan. I won't take up your offer of help.

I'm bored with this.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

BillCreer said:


> bigcats30 said:
> 
> 
> > BillCreer said:
> ...


I haven't proved nothing...I have facts to back up my argument and you've shown NOTHING.

Passports...planes still get blown up

Countries that make you carry your licence....cars are still driven uninsured

There's your fricking proof

What more do you need??? That's as simple as I can put it as you seem to find the facts hard to digest.

(second one of you 'For carrying licence' crowd that have run off after being proven wrong.)


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

BillCreer said:


> I won't take up your offer of help.


But you have Bill, your comment about childishness was lifted straight from my last post.

Glad to have been of help, Alan.


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