# What does it say on your V5?



## PF13 (Aug 2, 2013)

Just had my V5 through from the DVLA.

Immediately I have noticed that it says that the van is silver (it is black and white), it says that it has 2 seats (it has 4), so I must check the VIN number and engine number etc...

Also it says that the cab is a Peugeot Boxer Zuckoff. Can anyone else with a Bailey let me know what their V5 says and particularly is it referred to as a Zuckoff on theirs too?

Also has anyone got any experience of getting this corrected?

Thanks


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## Camdoon (Sep 21, 2012)

I have a zuckoff, 2 seats (it has 6), silver (it is silver).

I think the info refers to the donor Peugeot cab rather than as a motorhome.


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## tugboat (Sep 14, 2013)

I think the number of seats probably refers to belted seats.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Surely it refers to the number of belted seats that are safe for travelling in.

Could be tricky otherwise. How many seats are there on a U-shaped lounge? Is there a T.U.V. standard bum width?? :lol: 

Dave


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## PF13 (Aug 2, 2013)

I have 4 belted seats as designed and crash tested by Bailey, so I am determined that the V5 should say that. I would be uncomfortable with leaving it saying 2....


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

what on earth is a Zuckoff, and presumably it's not a spelling error


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

bognormike said:


> what on earth is a Zuckoff, and presumably it's not a spelling error


Mistakes like that can come as a bit of a blow. :wink:


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Is it new? 

Get your dealers to put it right, they should have sent the correct details to DVLA. Number of seats should be belted ones.


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## PF13 (Aug 2, 2013)

Dealer referred me to DVLA and yes is new. Sometimes easier to sort stuff out yourself.......

i remember reading in mmm mag that a zuckoff is the 2 cabs attached back to backas delivered from the peugeot factory.


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## camallison (Jul 15, 2009)

PF13 said:


> Dealer referred me to DVLA and yes is new. Sometimes easier to sort stuff out yourself.......
> 
> i remember reading in mmm mag that a zuckoff is the 2 cabs attached back to backas delivered from the peugeot factory.


YES it is - It is a term used to describe the way Peugeot deliver their short cabs to ALKO or the motorhome manufacturer. They are delivered back to back with the rear cab being effectively towed by the front one. When in the factory they are split and the ALKO chassis is bolted on.

Colin


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## bob-in-dav (Aug 11, 2013)

http://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/peugeot_boxer_435_zuckoff_lwb

:wink:


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## LaMB (Oct 20, 2011)

Well our Bailey 760 has 6 belted seats - V5 says 3 seats! So I guess it's half right!


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Sounds like someone at the dealership has just copied the wording on the Certificate of Conformity (or whatever) over onto the DVLA form used to first register the van.

I've had a Renault Master (3litre 140DCi) based McLouis van that was registered as a Renault 30 TX Auto (no I don't know where they got that from either).

This is a 30 TX Auto.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_20/30


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

It has been revealed over many threads over the years that

DVLA will write down any information from a Dealer, or anyone else, without any cross-check - well the staff in the Swansea office may not know a widget from a wodget.

A V5C is not a 'Document of Title' (Unlike a UK Registered Ship) so what use is a V5C to ascertain anything, other than the registered keeper?

If I want to get it corrected can I just send them any old information, just as the original person(s) registering it did? Do they have anyway of checking the revised information? Do they have any competent technical staff to do an inspection?

VOSA do, so why does not Dft employ VOSA to oversea the system of registration? 

I suspect the answer is about collection of tax.

Geoff


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

Stanner said:


> This is a 30 TX Auto.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_20/30


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

At least you could still sleep in it


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

nicholsong said:


> It has been revealed over many threads over the years that
> 
> DVLA will write down any information from a Dealer, or anyone else, without any cross-check - well the staff in the Swansea office may not know a widget from a wodget.


The reply to that is why should they check?

I have had one m/home registered as "CI Motorhome" (2003 registered by Brownhills)

The next was the "Renault 30 TX Auto" (A 2007 McLouis registered by Don Amotts)

and finally

CI Motorhome (2009 registered by Oaktree)

What database would the DVLA or Vosa consult to check what the dealer tells them?

The specs page in MMM?


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Stanner said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> > It has been revealed over many threads over the years that
> ...


Stanner

The V5C is a legal document conforming to international agreements and as such is the information is relied upon by police and other authorities and that information can have legal consequences, e.g. weight, number of seats, exhaust emissions (for low emissions areas) etc.

Some, but not all, of this information can be cross-checked by the owner and a request be made for amendments. For some amendments, e.g. up-weighting, the DVLA require proof, but I doubt if they require proof of down-weighting.

My point is that the information on that legal document should be correct. The responsibility for issuing the document rests with DVLA.

How DVLA exercise their responsibility is not for me to prescribe, but I can think of some possibilities:-

1 Require the person first registering the vehicle to supply a Construction and Use Certificate covering the class of vehicle.

2 Legislation putting onus on dealers to provide correct information.

I think that the police and VOSA in UK are probably aware that there is often a discrepancy between the V5C info and the facts and are quite tolerant. I would not like to rely on such tolerance being exercised in other countries, especially where I cannot speak the language to explain, and the authorities are ready to issue on the spot fines.

I see no point in there being a requirement to have this document, and to carry it or to produce it, if there is not a matching requirement for it to be issued accurately.

Geoff


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## lifestyle (Apr 27, 2008)

Just had a look at my V5 say`s i have 3 seats,but i only have 2 belted seats.
I guess it was registered by Fiat and went to the coach builders with a drivers seat and a double belted passenger seat as you would have in a white van.
My thoughts are ,if the coach builder alters the spec "ie takes out the double seat and replaces it with a single seat " then he should amend the changes, not the dealer.

Les


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## 944T (Apr 23, 2008)

My 745 had only 2 seats on V5.

They let it slip that every MH they had sold had 2 seats on V5.

They put it right and blamed it on Bailey saying Bailey had now sent them the correct paperwork.

When I ask to see the paper work the salesman did this 
 developed a speech impediment and ran off!


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

944T said:


> My 745 had only 2 seats on V5.
> 
> They let it slip that every MH they had sold had 2 seats on V5.
> 
> ...


I thought all salesmen had a speech impediment which is

'L-L-L ...ies'


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

nicholsong said:


> I see no point in there being a requirement to have this document, and to carry it or to produce it, if there is not a matching requirement for it to be issued accurately.
> 
> Geoff


I quite agree.

The problem is getting all the people involved in the exercise to sing from the same songsheet when (so it appears) there is no common songsheet to sing from.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Stanner

It is good that we are in agreement, but where do we take it from there?

I wonder what other countries' authorities do about checking before they issue the equivalent document?

My V5C is only filled in on 12 of the 35, or so, sections printed. And one of those - 'Engine number' the entry is 'NOT KNOWN' . So if stopped I could be accused of having a 'ringer'

To correct this omission/commission I could request that they insert the engine number I give them. So could the guy doing a 'ringer'

No wonder I am a 'Bureaucratic Anarchist'

Geoff


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

On my V5s, counting everything, there are 41 possible fields to be filled.

On one 16 are completed.

On another only 13 are completed - one of the omissions there is the revenue weight.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Stanner said:


> On my V5s, counting everything, there are 41 possible fields to be filled.
> 
> On one 16 are completed.
> 
> On another only 13 are completed - one of the omissions there is the revenue weight.


What a waste of space! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Not you Stanner]


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## Jean-Luc (Jul 21, 2005)

nicholsong said:


> Stanner
> 
> It is good that we are in agreement, but where do we take it from there?
> 
> ...


Our equivalent to the DVLA seem to be just as bad. A friend of mine recently had a new Lunar, with 6 travel seats, registered. The RF101 (our equivalent to the V5) had no less than eight errors or omissions.

The best or worst depending on your viewpoint, is that the vehicle was given an EU Category M2 (minibus) but the number of seats recorded is 2. :roll:


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Jean-Luc said:


> Our equivalent to the DVLA seem to be just as bad. A friend of mine recently had a new Lunar, with 6 travel seats, registered. The RF101 (our equivalent to the V5) had no less than eight errors or omissions.
> 
> The best or worst depending on your viewpoint, is that the vehicle was given an EU Category M2 (minibus) but the number of seats recorded is 2. :roll:


Can someone in the home of "officeocracy" tell us what the situation is on their registration doc?


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## PF13 (Aug 2, 2013)

Well i identified 4 errors although there may be more as i dont know what some of the fields mean such as type and variant and i have no idea on the noise ratings either. But the VIN was correct as were the weights. 

I have sent it back with a covering letter and the appropriate docs to support the changes to: the number of seats, the make, model and colour. 

We will see what response i get.....


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## Carl_n_Flo (May 10, 2005)

I have not long applied to register my wife's, admittedly second-hand, French registered Twingo onto the UK register and have a UK numberplate issued.

To do this, I had to fill in a form, by hand, for all manner of technical aspects including seats, weight, drive-by noise, length, width and other matters.

The point is, it all has to be done by hand by a human and where I could not find the required info (the car was first built in 1993 so does not have a Certificate of Conformity) I just left the box blank. So far to date, the DVLA have not got back to me with any 'issues'.

It is entirely down to the dealer who first registers the vehicle - probably NOT the manufacturer.

BTW, our motorhome is registered on the V5c as an Autotrail, and NOT a Mercedes..........THAT causes problems at times - especially for insurance!!!!!!!

Carl


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## PF13 (Aug 2, 2013)

Well i am trying to cover all bases here.

I have told the DVLA that the make is Peugeot Bailey and the model is Boxer Approach Autograph 750.

We will see if they accept that...

Out of interest the Peugeot certificate of conformity was entirely in French...


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## Carl_n_Flo (May 10, 2005)

PF13 said:


> Well i am trying to cover all bases here.
> 
> I have told the DVLA that the make is Peugeot Bailey and the model is Boxer Approach Autograph 750.
> 
> ...


Naturally......................


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## PF13 (Aug 2, 2013)

I would have thought that the importer would need to translate? We export to russia at work and all docs have to be in russian with an english translation. In any dispute the russian is used which is a bit of a pain as I have to trust the translation when signing....


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## SteveB123 (Jan 28, 2013)

I was concerned about my V5 being wrong because I was going to Spain and didn't know if the French and Spanish police would insist on it being correct, especially because it said 3500kg on the V5 but the plate says 3850kg. I sent my V5 to the DVLA with a copy of the Bailey leaflet showing the number of seats and photo of the Alko plate under the bonnet. A few weeks later I received the correct V5 and a new tax disc because the taxation class had changed to Private HGV. I sent my old disc back and they sent me a refund for the difference. They did phone me with some queries but other than that easy.

Steve


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I have started to query what the standing is of the V5C in international law and whether all countries have documents that are equivalent.

For example 

The DVLA issued V5C states who is the Registered Keeper but not the legal owner - is this the same for other countries documents?

When asked by foreign authorities to produce vehicle documents, what is the legal minimum one must produce? Registered Keeper, Owner, Bill of Sale? What is the legal position?

The DVLA seem to enter anything the original person registering, or subsequent Keeper, tells them and then maybe does not enter it accurately. What is the legal status of this information internationally?
E.G if the the V5C states the MPLM is 4,000kg does the French or German policeman have to accept that, even if it were designed for only 3.600kg?

Do DVLA check against Certificates of Conformity? If so how is it that so many people on this and other threads report that their V5C is wrong? If it is wrong can a driver be prosecuted in another country for producing a false document?

The list of questions goes on for ever.........

But one last one --- Is the DVLA system and its operation 

a) fit for purpose?

b) achieving anything substantial, and/or complying with international law?

Geoff


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

> Naturally......................


 :?

Naturellement?


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## Jean-Luc (Jul 21, 2005)

nicholsong said:



> I have started to query what the standing is of the V5C in international law and whether all countries have documents that are equivalent.
> 
> For example
> 
> ...


The V5 is the UK version of the harminised EU certificate of registration, a certificate of the vehicles details.
For example its called form RF101 here in Ireland.

If you check the details contained they conform to an agreed format, for example S1 is number of seats, J is EU Vehicle Category, F.1 is the vehicles GVW or Maximum Permitted Laden Mass, etc. etc. etc.
Foreign plod therefore can understand the official specifications of the vehicle without needing to understand the language of the issuing country.

If it's any consolation our equivalent of your DVLA is equally not fit for purpose as most of the certificates issued for motor caravans are works of fiction. Presently I am having difficulty getting an Umwelt Plakette from the German authorities as a result of errors and omissions on the cert for my vehicle.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

After 4 pages of posts on this thread we seem not to have had a response from anybody who might have been trained in the legalities/requirements of ths V5C document, e.g ex-policemen/VOSA/DVLA etc.

I have tried to do some further research about the origin of this document, but my research is far from complete.

It seems to originate from a Vienna Convention 1968 (ameneed 1993(?) , the purpose of which was to agree that Vehicles Registered in any Contracting State could freely circulate in the territories of all other Contracting States.

I have so far not found where this Convention was adopted into UK law.

The wording of the Convention says that the document 'shall contain' the following information and lists the standard paragraphs. There are certain derogations permitted.

However from posts on this and other threads it would appear that many V5C issued by DVLA do not comply.

Several posts have stated 'seats' should be belted seats - were there belted seats in 1968?

I would be grateful to anyone with more knowledge of the legal standing of this document would please advise.

I am starting to think it was dreamt up by bureaucrats to be administered by other bureaucrats and to be checked by other bureaucrats.

Maybe somebody can prove me wrong.

Geoff


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Geoff

The fitting of seat let's was compulsory on all new vehicles as from 1965 the WEARING of them only became compulsory in the late 70's

The V5 is a certificate of registration of the vehicle details and details of the vehicle KEEPER it is not proof of ownership. (It might belong to you and you lend it to your son for an extended period of time. He then SHOULD register the vehicle in his name as he is the keeper not you) 

This situation used to cause me no end of bother, someone would ring in to say the driver of a red fiesta reg no xxxxxxx has had 28 pints of draught Drambuie and is driving home from a pub. Yippee thinks me I'll have him!!!! Quick PNC check and the registered keeper is a bloody car leasing company :roll: so the is no way of me knowing where said ****head driver is heading. I tried hard to get a lease company prosecuted for failing to notify change of KEEPER details. CPS wouldn't authorise the prosecution as "the law is unclear" 

I am aware that the V5 is in a EU standard format and that most of the other Eurozone countries require you to carry it with you, but for some reason that is NOT the case in the UK.

Is DVLA fit for purpose??? Probably yes as the vast majority of what they do is done correctly. Remember people only have an opinion when something goes wrong.

As far as the legality of the information being 100% correct a legal requirement I am afraid I have no idea!!


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

Geoff,

Did you find this as part of your research? https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewD...dsg_no=XI~B~19&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg3&lang=en
It could be that whoever signed it on our behalf signed as authorised under the legislation that would have been passed to get us into the United Nations.

Just a thought - probably not much of one 8O


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

Sorry, I've put the intended link into my previous post now :?


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