# UK Aires - Lobby Now



## dodger148 (May 9, 2005)

This may well have been posted already, forgive the duplication if thats the case. I found this on the MCC Forum

http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/resto...-aires-and-wild-camping-in-suitable-locations

I have now registered


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks for pointing that out Roger. I hope this can be made a sticky and that many people will contribute, Alan.


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## firewood (Mar 17, 2009)

it would be nice if it was to happen .
then maybe just maybe i may have a holiday in the u.k.
just booked another ferry for france in sept .only £60 return cheaper than a parking fine here.


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## CurlyBoy (Jan 13, 2008)

*Uk aires*

Registered and posted my view

curlyboy


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi

I have made this a sticky ...

Do follow the link in Dodgers post and make your comment heard.

Here is what the "Your freedom" website is all about ...


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## zulurita (May 9, 2005)

Registered and added my two pennyworth.


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## Mike48 (May 1, 2005)

I've done likewise. The more people who respond the greater the chance of something being done.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Great post but the title could be more eye catching. UK Aires Lobby Now! or some such, Alan.


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

Hadn't seen it in the MCC forum, but that could be that it is so boring. I am concerned that nearly all of the respondents have not used their proper names. Surely if it is that important and we want the Government to take notice then at least show the common decency of making yourself recognisable.
I have responded using my full name.
Gerry


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## Mike48 (May 1, 2005)

GerryD said:


> Hadn't seen it in the MCC forum, but that could be that it is so boring. I am concerned that nearly all of the respondents have not used their proper names. Surely if it is that important and we want the Government to take notice then at least show the common decency of making yourself recognisable.
> I have responded using my full name.
> Gerry


Everyone is identifiable because when you register you are required to leave your email address and the first part of your postcode.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

Bluntly this will have about as much clout as all the numerous other petitions that have gone before on the same subject.

Far better to make your feelings known to your local or county authority who _ do _ have the authority to make such decisions. Central government really have no say in the matter and, at the moment, have other things to do of a rather more pressing nature.

G


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## Mike48 (May 1, 2005)

Grizzly said:


> Bluntly this will have about as much clout as all the numerous other petitions that have gone before on the same subject.
> 
> Far better to make your feelings known to your local or county authority who _ do _ have the authority to make such decisions. Central government really have no say in the matter and, at the moment, have other things to do of a rather more pressing nature.
> 
> G


This is not a petition. The Government are trawling for ideas to include in their Freedom Bill. The Government have instigated the idea and it is incorrect to link this with the occasionally wacky online petitions that find their way to Downing St..


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

gelathae said:


> The Government have instigated the idea and it is incorrect to link this with the occasionally wacky online petitions that find their way to Downing St..


Understood, but you are still petitioning (ie requesting /appealing to etc) the wrong people. I'm getting heartily sick of people whinging about the lack of aires and free MH parking in UK and doing _ nothing _ about it that makes sense -or nothing at all.

Write to the people who matter and can make such a decision. That's not government and it is not something that will or should be included in said Freedom Act but it is something over which local authorities have jurisdiction and could be swayed.

This is what the Freedom Act is all about:

_
RSS Feed for 'Restoring civil liberties' discussion 
Civil liberties are the basic rights and freedoms that protect an individual. They prevent the state from abusing power or intruding in citizens' lives unnecessarily. Legislation can help keep people safe, but excessive legislation can erode civil liberties.

We are determined to restore fundamental civil liberties, while still protecting our society. You can read our ideas on how we do this in in Our Programme for Government, but we also really want your views. We hope to include the most constructive of your ideas in our Freedom Bill later in 2010.

Question

Which current laws would you like to remove or change because they restrict your civil liberties?_

Is there anyone here who can honestly say that their civil liberties are in jeopardy because they can't park their MH where they want ?

G


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## rosie66 (Mar 21, 2008)

*Re: UK Aires*



dodger148 said:


> This may well have been posted already, forgive the duplication if thats the case. I found this on the MCC Forum
> 
> http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/resto...-aires-and-wild-camping-in-suitable-locations


Yep, just added our 2 1/2p worth  Interesting new site but of course they are really not going to listen are they? Only to things that they were thinking of doing already!


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Its only a matter of time before you work out that it originated on the FUN and I was the first to back it. Yep the games up. Im a mole for the FUNSTERS. Trouble is they will now think the same thing and I will be binned from both!

Oh well might as well go and shove it on the Wild Side as well!

EDIT: just checked, it went on at 2pm today


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

barryd said:


> Trouble is they will now think the same thing and I will be binned from both!..................


Don't be daft Barry, we will still consider talking to you, probably.

As to this being the wrong thing, I disagree. It is a way to speak directly to Central Government. I think their concern about small liberties is valid and seems genuine. It seems that strictly speaking we are not at liberty to overnight other than in places which have planning permission and that we are restricted as a result of being compared to old time caravans under legislation which has been overtaken by advances in the design and construction of motorhomes. That old legislation would appear to be an easy way out for Councils, unless they provide Aire type facilities they cannot allow overnighting.

It may amount to nothing but if we took that approach to everything in life we wouldn't get up in the morning. I am an enthusiast and as such prepared to give this a try, Alan.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

erneboy said:


> [It may amount to nothing but if we took that approach to everything in life we wouldn't get up in the morning. I am an enthusiast and as such prepared to give this a try, Alan.


Alan...be serious a moment. All that will happen when such a blatantly silly request is put to central government is that they will see MHers as a group of- well, to be blunt- fools who can't tell a civil liberty from a bag of sweets.

Why should you have any rights to park your MH just anywhere ? Next you'll be telling us that your Human Rights are being infringed too !

We've got a lovely MH aire here not a mile from where I sit. It was provided by our local authority, is by the Thames, lovely views, shade, a few minutes walk from town and public transport to Oxford and it's in MHF database. Have I seen anyone use it ? I have not ! I don't know why I bother.

G


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

The Funsters think its a good idea!

Im really asking for it now aren't I?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Grizzly said "Why should you have any rights to park your MH just anywhere ? Next you'll be telling us that your Human Rights are being infringed too !" 

You are completely misrepresenting what I said and indeed what this topic is about. It is about having Aire type facilities in the UK, not having license to do as we please.

As to civil liberties, why not overnight on an Aire in the UK. I am a civilian who would like to be at liberty to do so. I am sure that if the Government view the request as frivolous they will ignore it, but while there is the chance to highlight the issue I will make use of it. 

Do you have another definition of civil liberties?

I really do not want to argue with you over this and am having some difficulty understanding why you find it necessary to admonish me/us on this topic. Disapprove if you want to but please allow those of us who want to try get on with it, Alan.


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## wp1234 (Sep 29, 2009)

Added my bit, lets hope everyone on here adds to it


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

Alan..I am not admonishing you but I am suggesting you- and others- direct their energies where they will be more useful.

Yes, I have clear ideas what constitute my civil liberties; I have lived under Idi Amin, Jomo Kenyatta and Robert Mugabe and have every reason to know.

A good definition:

_Civil liberties 
The basic human or civil rights of the individual. In Britain, the Human Rights Act of 1998 guarantees the right to life, freedom from torture, freedom from slavery and forced labour, the right to liberty and security, right to a fair trial, right to privacy, freedom of conscience, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly and association, and the right to marry and have a family._

I really cannot see where " freedom to park my campervan..." comes into this.

We're remarkably lucky in the country to be free and I would not wish anyone to take it for granted or to debase the meaning of that freedom by trivia.

By all means lobby for aires- a good thing if there were more and i do lobby and try hard to get my local and county authority to set up more- but do it through the right channels and then you will not be knocking on a totally closed door.

G


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## Bernies (Mar 22, 2007)

Been on too...added our bit, there are two threads running on a similar subject - here's the other one:

http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/restoring-civil-liberties/britain-is-noxious-for-motorhomers


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Grizzly, I am impressed by your CV and of course you are correct that big things are paramount.

This is about repealing daft laws, the laws which prevent the provision of overnight parking without facilities are trivial, outdated and unnecessary. Just the kind of thing which gets thrown in with ideas like this to up the number of daft laws which they can claim to have repealed. So while I respect your point of view and your credentials I disagree about the value and possible perception of this approach, Alan.


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## CatherineandSteve (Dec 20, 2005)

Hi all,

Registered and added our bit on both posts.

Cheers C&S


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

Added my 2p too. 


Grizzly; If that string (as opposed to the several others there) is correct, it initially sets out which bits of law could do with refreshing. Is that incorrect? If thats OK then as far as I can see then it fits into Mr Cleggs removal of silly laws aim. That may well then make it easier for people to petition their own council for a more direct and fruitful result? Wether its too small a topic for them to be bothered with at the minute is something else?

Another point, if this hadn't been posted I would have never have known the UK had any Aires at all. It makes no difference where on this site they're listed, since I won't go looking for something I didn't know existed! The CCC site in Canturbury will not be seeing me when I'm passing next time, Aire it is!


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

erneboy said:


> This is about repealing daft laws, the laws which prevent the provision of overnight parking without facilities are trivial, outdated and unnecessary..


Point taken and you are right Alan. I'm sorry to seem uptight about this and hope I have not offended you but, as an excuse, I've read _ so _ many posts on MHF in which people leap on the bandwagon of what-a-dreadful-place-UK-is-because-it-has-no-aires and they * do nothing about it that could be useful. *

It's easy to sign an online petition but why don't people go and see their local council and, using their rights as a citizen, make their case to them ? They do talk to each other- I know from writing to the man who was responsible for the Canterbury P&R aire- and they do have sufficient power, if they have to will, to get changes made. Canterbury did...

G


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

grizzlyj said:


> Added my 2p too.
> 
> Grizzly; If that string (as opposed to the several others there) is correct, it initially sets out which bits of law could do with refreshing. Is that incorrect? If thats OK then as far as I can see then it fits into Mr Cleggs removal of silly laws aim. That may well then make it easier for people to petition their own council for a more direct and fruitful result? Wether its too small a topic for them to be bothered with at the minute is something else?
> 
> Another point, if this hadn't been posted I would have never have known the UK had any Aires at all. It makes no difference where on this site they're listed, since I won't go looking for something I didn't know existed! The CCC site in Canturbury will not be seeing me when I'm passing next time, Aire it is!


Good for you as the Canterbury Council provided a great Aires and I have thanked them personally and told them I advertise it all the time and meet my MHF pals there.
Its so quiet there and so safe.
You can get a meal in the pub by the site or go on the bus to town and eat in some great restaurants.
All towns should have one :wink:


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## Zozzer (Aug 13, 2006)

Registered and backed up the call for change in the law.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

grizzlyj said:


> Another point, if this hadn't been posted I would have never have known the UK had any Aires at all. It makes no difference where on this site they're listed, since I won't go looking for something I didn't know existed! !


I suspect you didn't know they existed because of the prevailing negative attitude when it comes to discussing aires. Too many simply state that there are none.

There are quite a few but you do have to seek them out ! They're often in coach parks and some need you to talk to "central control" via the intercom so they can open the barrier for you.

This site is useful:

www.motorhomeparking.co.uk

and it would be great if people added to it and kept it up to date.

G


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## UncleNorm (May 1, 2005)

I've registered and posted my view...

_*I have to agree with all points thus far. We love going to France for all the reasons stated, especially the fact that we motorhomers are welcomed with open arms. 
I have a dilemma... do I spend £200 on 10 nights at a Caravan Club site in the back of beyond in the UK... OR spend the same £200 on 6 weeks in France, ferry included? 
I'd really like to think that, one day, we'll be able to spend our money and time in the UK, getting the same value for money as in France. Dreams eh?*_


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Maybe they should be renamed as Aires on the campsite map / database instead of PP (Parking place) then we will all know what they are. I know they are not "Aires" as thats French but I never gave them a second glance as I didnt associate PP with Aire.

This post is running across 4 forums that I know of now. I think Grizzly has a point about lobbying local authorities but collectively if all the members on all the forums got together it would make a long list and perhaps a loud voice?

Perhaps its food for thought for the website owners?? 

I think the biggest issue to be honest is we all will readily sign a petition or back something with a click of a mouse but when it comes down to a concentrated slog to really change legislation and the way councils etc think very few (myself included) have the time or commitment to do it.

I still think its worth singing though and will gladly help if I can in anything that moves us towards better MH parking.


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## dodger148 (May 9, 2005)

I have been on the other one as well

http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/restoring-civil-liberties/britain-is-noxious-for-motorhomers


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## dhutchy (Feb 7, 2010)

Done it thanks for posting this thread


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

Grizzly said:


> We've got a lovely MH aire here not a mile from where I sit. It was provided by our local authority, is by the Thames, lovely views, shade, a few minutes walk from town and public transport to Oxford and it's in MHF database. Have I seen anyone use it ? I have not ! I don't know why I bother.
> 
> G


Grizzly,
I am a little confused as the only two car parks in the MHF database listed under Oxfordshire (Abingdon and Redbridge) do not allow overnight habitation. They are therefore only car parks and could never be described as "Aires".
Or is there another one that is not listed?
Gerry


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

http://www.motorcaravanning.com/travel/uk_aires.htm

When you look at this site it really is a poor show that Aires are not really provided.

The argument is we have lots of campsites but we are so different to Caravans as we have all our facilities we need.
We have our water, and Power (solar), shower and our loo on board and yet we have to pay for all the facilities on a Camp site.
We don't need them so Aires are a better alternative.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

GerryD said:


> Grizzly,
> I am a little confused as the only two car parks in the MHF database listed under Oxfordshire (Abingdon and Redbridge) do not allow overnight habitation. Gerry


I wasn't aware that there was any wording that implies the Abingdon one does not allow overnighting. It certainly does and, if you let me know which words to alter I will do it pdq. As you can see from the Streetview shots, the actual MH part is beyond the barried car park and under the trees.

Oxford P&R, no, it does not allow overnighting and I put that in bold lettering. I have tried with the various authorities who control it- it has changed over the past few years- but they are adamant that those who live in the houses adjacent would protest. I suppose my next step there is to actually ask some of them if they'd even notice !

G


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

http://www.worldofmotorhomes.com/advertiser/the-motorhome-stopover.html

The Pub stopovers are an idea though

But the want £30.00 per year for membership
http://www.motorhomestopover.co.uk/subscriptions.asp


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks Grizzly, harmony is restored.

Generally it is worth noting that an Aire is a little more than just overnight parking, I have looked through some of the lists, particularly the link provided by a poster on Your Freedom who was saying that there are many Aires and we could find them on Google. In fact most of the sites that link lead to did not have all the requisite ingredients. Many lack water and/or black or grey disposal, Alan.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

re Abingdon Rye Farm parking: This from motorhomeparking.co.uk

_Abingdon 
Rye Farm - pay and display £7 for 24hrs as at 13/07/08. Park in coach and commercial vehicle section, behind car park (which has height barrier). Just on edge of town when heading south on A415, turn left into it just after crossing bridge over Thames/Isis river. WC across main road (pay). Just a few minutes walk into town centre (Interesting town, with markets and riverside walks, regular buses into Oxford). This location is included in the Camperstop Europe publication, as an overnight location and we used it as such a few days ago. Our parking ticket was checked by a warden whilst we were in the van (without comment)! (Many thanks to CR for this information, received on 17 July 2008) _

True, it has no dedicated borne but this is moving the goal posts a little if you don't mind my saying so ! Initially we were talking about safe pleasant places to overnight and MHs are supposed to be able to be independent of external facilities for a while !

I'll find the Camperstop reference and add it to the review.

G

Edit: Does anyone have a Camperstop book ? It is referred to on page 89 but I'd like to be able to quote.


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

barryd said:


> Maybe they should be renamed as Aires on the campsite map / database instead of PP (Parking place) then we will all know what they are. I know they are not "Aires" as thats French but I never gave them a second glance as I didnt associate PP with Aire.


Barry, have a look on Campingcar-infos, we use a similar system in our database. A lot of people don't realise that you can use the majority of those as overnight stops as well...

They have separate categories for Aires (aires de service)







A service point with (and sometimes without) overnight parking.

.... and Parking (aires de stationement)







The majority of aires de stationement entries permit overnight parking, it should say if not.

..back on topic :roll: .......

Pete


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I see a fundamental problem with trying to persuade local councils.

Local councils are surely only obliged to take into account the views of those who reside in their area and directly, or indirectly, pay Council Tax or pay Business Rates there.

If I write to a council at the other end of the country I can envisage them binning the letter, since it is not from a resident.

If I write to my local council, Richmond, London, I can imagine they would wonder why should anyone want facilities within 5 miles of their own home. If I use the argument that it will bring in more trade then, in the case of Richmond, they would dimiss this on the basis that parking is already at a premium so any outsider would displace a local resident.

For those who live in areas with more space to accomodate visiting MHs the extra business argument may work with their local council.

For the rest of us, it seems we have little clout countrywide by going the local council route.

If we could achieve a change in central government policy, requiring local councils to at least consider the provision of OVERNIGHT FACILITIES (emphasis to avoid policy being hijacked by 'travellers) this might achieve a change of attitude nationally.

I do not believe the Freedom argument has any justification as it only addresses situations where Prohibitions restrict freedoms and is not applicable to a situation, as here, where we are seeking the Provision of facilities, Aires.

Any argument about national freedom to park where we want is spurious since, with a few exceptions in local council rules which can be challenged individually, we have the same right to park as any other vehicle on the road . 

One further problem is that our two biggest clubs who might be used as our National voice have a vested interest, i.e. their own sites, for which Aires would provide competition.

Before anyone shouts 'Defeatist!', I am not being defeatist but trying to objectivelly look at realistic opportunities of being effectively listened to.

Geoff


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

nicholsong said:


> I see a fundamental problem with trying to persuade local councils.
> Geoff


A good post Geoff.

I think, with many local councils, we would be knocking on a door that was already ajar if not actually open.

The elephant in the room which prevents many of them providing a dedicated aire with full services is the possibility that it might be taken over by travellers for their long term use. Now if this bill could be used to overturn the laws which force local authorities and private individuals to resort to long term, expensive court proceedings to evict travllers then I would sign up.

Many coach and car parks will already turn a blind eye to overnighters or- in some case ( Alnwick, Upton on Severn for example) - provide spaces for them. What they baulk at is publicising this because they don't want to encourage travellers.
For MHers who want to know exactly where they can overnight safely this is not very satisfactory.

I think you might be right about the CC discouraging aire-type camping but I'm not so sure about the C&CC.

G

Edit: I'd forgotten about the 6 page list the CC provide of night halts on service stations. It's in the older Big Sites Book or as a download from the member's section of the site. Surely that is an encouragement to use an "aire" rather than a nearby CC site ?


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

Theres a nice big carpark in central Hexham that allows HGVs to park overnight so nice big spaces about 5 mins walk from the town centre, next to tourist info, and Peebles has a nice big car park with free parking when we passed last year.

Slightly O/T, but rather than wait for someone else to produce our Aires, I wonder how many people are in a position to let Motorhomers fill from a tap and dump waste at their home? Park for the night even? If no money changed hands planning/councils etc wouldn't come in to it? There could be so many of these that each individual may not be called on too often? Access via PM from here for instance?


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

Maybe we are approaching this problem from the wrong angle.

If there was a change in the law concerning travellers and the ability to prevent them from setting up illegal camps, and to be able to evict them immediately, without the need for long, drawn out court proceedings.
Then it would give local authorities the incentive and courage to provide OVERNIGHT FACILITIES for bona fide motorhome leisure users.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

Spacerunner said:


> Maybe we are approaching this problem from the wrong angle.
> 
> If there was a change in the law concerning travellers and the ability to prevent them from setting up illegal camps, and to be able to evict them immediately, without the need for long, drawn out court proceedings.
> Then it would give local authorities the incentive and courage to provide OVERNIGHT FACILITIES for bona fide motorhome leisure users.


You took the words right out of my mouth ( or even my post....) !

G


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Would anyone visiting the Your Freedom web site to make a comment also please remember to rate the topic. There is a star rating just below the OP, Alan.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I think we have to be a bit more specific in differentiating between

a) Places just to park overnight with no facilities. 

and

b) French-style Aires/Sellplatz which provide at least water and waste disposal plus maybe EHU.

Not every poster seems to be defining which they are talking about.

This confusion could also cause any government/local authorities lose interest.

Geoff


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

Round here Geoff we are having difficulty finding the money to mend huge potholes let alone provide bornes or CDP. I think any council tax payer,asked to do so, would be entitled to be upset in the light of the financial state we are in.

To find a corner of a car, lorry or bus park however is another thing and yes, we should be able to do it all over the country.

G


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

At say five pounds a night and a pound for water they would be self funding. It only requires a machine with a water supply and an adjacent manhole for it to discharge into, Alan.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

erneboy said:


> At say five pounds a night and a pound for water they would be self funding. It only requires a machine with a water supply and an adjacent manhole for it to discharge into, Alan.


The tap has to connect to a mains water supply and the manhole to a sewer so that is not always a cheap job if there is not a suitable one nearby. There is then maintenance, collection of fees - I don't suppose the machines for doing this come cheap- and so on.

I'd rather concentrate on the network of safe overnighting places and add the bornes, taps and CDP later if possible.

G


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Grizzly and All

When I suggested that the thread should distinguish between Aires and Parking that was before I realised, after re-reading the Lobby document, that I misled myself into believing that the whole subject was about 'Aires' i.e. Parking with Facilities.

The title of both the thread and the Lobby doc include the word 'Aires', but on closer reading of the Lobby doc it seems only to refer to parking. 

Even then the only legislation the Lobby seem to want to correct is the Campsite Development legislation, which from what I can gather only restricts anyone, including local councils, from 'developing a 'site' (presumably including putting down lined spaces etc.) if the parked vehicles are permitted to be used for cooking and sleeping.

But this is about Development of a 'site'. Can anyone point to other UK legislation, other than local bye-laws, prohibiting my sleeping and cooking in my MH in an unrestricted parking place. If so then all the 'Truckers' taking their mandatory tachograph breaks in lay-bys are also breaking those laws, if they exist.

That leaves us with the possible provision of an amendment to legislation to permit local councils to permit sleeping and eating in a vehicle, defined as a 'caravan' on what the existing Development legislation would consider to be a 'Site'

I, and I am sure many wild campers, peacefully park undisturbed in many parts of UK, so what is the problem about 'Parking' - has anyone been told they must not cook or sleep?

So as regards the Parking issue, Hammer, Nuts and Crack come to mind but not necessarily in that order.

IF THE SUBJECT WERE REALLY ABOUT AIRES THEN I WOULD GIVE IT MORE SUPPORT

Geoff


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

True Grizzly, all of this can be done at very little cost as you will have seen on Aires in France. Forget machines they will be expensive, although I cannot find them on the net. 

I know how easily this can be done. An external tap is simple to fit near any existing water pipe, it could be operated by a coin mechanism on a time limit set into the wall of any convenient building or the cost of water could be factored into the price obviating the need for a coin mech. The disposal point should be beside an existing manhole, very little pipe required, a meter maximum. The fresh water and the waste disposal do not need to be side by side. The money could be paid and a ticket issued at a parking machine, the Council Office, a Tourist Office etc. Tickets could be checked using whatever arrangement is in place for checking parking tickets, no extra staff required.

I am not trying to perpetuate an argument I am trying to show that all that is needed can be done very simply and quickly, I was a contractor for 35 years and I reckon three men would do the whole job in a day, Alan.


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## ceejayt (Nov 25, 2005)

dodger148 said:


> I have now registered


Me too. Good initiative


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

erneboy said:


> I am trying to show that all that is needed can be done very simply and quickly, I was a contractor for 35 years and I reckon three men would do the whole job in a day, Alan.


But surely Alan, the expensive bit is running the CDP drain to the mains sewer as well as a mains water supply and dirty water drain ? Anything that requires digging up main roads and laying pipes is not going to be cheap or popular.

We spend a lot of our time when on the road sussing out places where an aire could be built. Most towns and villages have a small area somewhere but many of them are not close to the sewers or the water main.

G


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## viator (May 1, 2007)

The August issue of MMM includes a small booklet, title, MMM Guide to Motorhome Parking and Base Vehicle Servicing, interesting to note that quite a few local and district councils already provide overnight parking (with conditions) for motorhomes. 

As Grizzly mentions, direct your efforts at the councils who are not providing such a facility with maybe a reference to those who do.
viator


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes Grizzly, excavations are expensive. To keep the cost down they should be avoided. That's why the disposal point should be beside an existing manhole, very little pipe required, a meter maximum. The fresh water and the waste disposal do not need to be side by side.

Suitable man holes will be found on pipe runs through many existing carparks, or will be adjacent to any toilet blocks. At worst a new manhole may be required to access the sewer, not a big job. While money is scarce these measures would keep the cost low. I can't see how the price for such a job, including fabricating and galvanising a suitable disposal point could exceed a couple of thousand. Think of the facilities at Canterbury, a manhole with a hinging lid and a tap connected to an existing water supply.

Many French Aires are done in this way to keep the price down, Alan


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## Zozzer (Aug 13, 2006)

I would certainly hope that should this campaign be successfull, it will allow the local councils mandate the maximum number of hours that motorhomes can stay. My reason for this are that if no restrictions are placed on facilities then there are those amongst us that WOULD abuse facilities causing upset amongst the local residence.

I think a change in the by-laws covering caravan and campsite could also bring many of them into modern age by allowing aire / stellplatz facilties adjacent to the main campsite. 

In my opinion, a change in the laws will provide a win win situation, motorhome tourists get access to more of the country and towns and villages will getthe benefit of more trade.


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

> Forget machines they will be expensive, although I cannot find them on the net.


There was an article in a German mag about this and if my dodgy translation is correct, a basic no frills service point (holiday clean) would cost around the €10,000 figure, not sure if that is plumbed in or just supplied.
It also went on the say that a stellplatze for 30 motorhomes would cost circa €70,000 with (I think) all the associated ground work.

Lots of useful info on the following link (except prices) if you put it through a translator....

http://www.r-freizeit-reisch.de/seite2.htm

http://www.r-freizeit-reisch.de/index.html

I have lots of other links/info from other suppliers as well.

Must get out more.

Pete


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

viator said:


> As Grizzly mentions, direct your campaign at the councils who are not providing such a facility with maybe a reference to those who do.
> viator


Viator, this is not our campaign, see the OP for details. There is no MHF campaign although some members have done great work individually, Alan


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

I'd be interested to know how extensively the late night arrivals areas at the entrance to many club sites are used.

It seems to me that an Acceuil Camping Cars system could well be run using them where they exist. 

G


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

erneboy said:


> At worst a new manhole may be required to access the sewer, not a big job.


But Alan, what I am trying to say is that not all sites suitable for an aire have got a sewer anywhere near them or anywhere to get fresh water from.

If you're talking an isolated field on the outskirts of a village then they could be miles away from sewers and mains water. However cheap it is to put in a manhole and a tap they've got to be connected to the right utility !

G


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Grizzly, my suggestions for doing the job cheaply will only work where these amenities are nearby, I thought I had made that clear. I will re-read what I said and edit if I haven't, Alan.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

erneboy said:


> . It only requires a machine with a water supply and an adjacent manhole for it to discharge into, Alan.


Alan..the whole point of my letter previous to this was to say that providing an aire was not cheap and that my local authority was strapped for cash and would not be able to "sell" the idea to the rate payers.

Your reply only states that a machine supplying water and a manhole to drain into is necessary and that you could do it with 3 men in a day and cheaply. No-where do you suggest that the water and sewer have to be already in place.

Anyway: I _ think _ we agree that it will not be cheap and not something we can expect local authorities to take up cheerfully at the moment.

G


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I have edited my previous posts for clarity and added the word existing here and there. I thought I had been quite clear. I did say a meter or so away from a manhole and that excavations would be minimal. However I apologise and hope it is clear now, Alan.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

erneboy said:


> I have edited my previous posts for clarity and added the word existing here and there. I thought I had been quite clear. I did say a meter or so away from a manhole and that excavations would be minimal. However I apologise and hope it is clear now, Alan.


No apology necessary Alan. I think we've all got a bit too involved in this and relay's recent post has put things into perspective for me anyway.

G


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## Dinks123 (Apr 20, 2010)

Have registerd and behalf of Clive as well


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

On our way home from our last trip in France we found a new Aire. Well it wasn't an Aire just a farmers field about 15 miles south of Calais who hAd provided a field for about a dozen vans with I have to say a fab setting with a fantastic sea view. No facilities which was not a problem for us as we were on our way home and had a bit of water and a half full loo.

An Aire is only for a short stay so how easy would it be to set up a similar Aire in the UK with no facilities? At then end of the day if we could get councils to do a 100 of these as appose to a handful of aires with facilities then I would be up for that. You could think ahead, fill up and empty at your CL or a public loo or (god forbid) campsite! and then spend a two days on the aire and move on. 

If all we are asking is for a place to park without much investment then maybe there is more chance of getting some agreement. Once these are in place and it works and they see the benefit then we can start asking for water and waste disposal aires with perhaps a bigger charge

Slowly slowly catch the Monkey!


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## christine1310 (Apr 10, 2008)

If you are interested in voting/leaving a comment then there are actually 4 motorhome items on the HMG website. Just do a search under motorhomes. I think the point is to change the law so local authorities can allow overnight parking if they want to. If this happened I think it would still be a long time before we have proper 'Aires' here. One of the threads is for overnight parking at park and ride schemes, which I think is a good idea. Another was in National Parks - a bit like in Portugal. You have to start somewhere.


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## Spikeyman (Apr 20, 2010)

Why not make this a petition on the no 10 web site and get people to sign it? http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/list
Cameron is asking for idea's but don't hold your breathe waiting for councils to do anything, it will never happen in this nanny state country, we are not allowed to think & take responsibility for ourselves anymore.
Better off in France where they do really welcome the motor home people and provide for them.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

How do we expect councils to provide aires.
They put height barriers on public parking to keep us out.


Dave p


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## tonygel (Nov 17, 2008)

*Aires in the uk*

I can go back 30 years. It was never this bad then.
I have my opinions as to why this has happened, but unfortunately they are very un pc.
If memory serves me correct it all kicked off big in the 80s with certain parts of the population refusing to leave peoples land.


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

While this thread is almost dead, may I add that progress with developing British Aires will occur most effectively where some advantage to the developer outweighs the irritation of having occasional badly behaved motorhomers parking near their homes.
If local shops can bennefit or in order to rationalise unseemly overnight parking, there just may be a chance for local parish councils to support the case but I do not think that philanthropy will be a great motivator.

Alan


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## johnthompson (Jul 29, 2010)

rosalan said:


> While this thread is almost dead, may I add that progress with developing British Aires will occur most effectively where some advantage to the developer outweighs the irritation of having occasional badly behaved motorhomers parking near their homes.
> If local shops can bennefit or in order to rationalise unseemly overnight parking, there just may be a chance for local parish councils to support the case but I do not think that philanthropy will be a great motivator.
> 
> Alan


On the news yesterday it was announced that the Government had issued a notice to local planning authorities, that planning permission was no longer needed for the erection of charging points for electric cars.

These notices are also in force for TV antennas satellite dishes etc.

This type of action is all that is needed by government, to enable local authorities to set up parking places for motorhomes where they can be occupied overnight.

Presumed consent could also apply to the construction of service points.

Private owners would still have to apply for a site licence under the Caravan Sites Act but could be included in the presumed planning consent.

We have situations now where there are parking places where the local authorities have started and withdrawn facilities because they have been informed by their legal departments that although they can set up such facilities under the Caravan Sites Act. The legal guys consider that the authorities have to apply to them selves and go through the expense of meetings to grant themselves permission to set up a parking place that already exists.

It shows that they can do it when they want to.

John


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

thanks John - it would certainly seem to make things easier.


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## andyangyh (May 1, 2005)

Some years ago one of the motorhome magazines had a campaign to get UK aires built. I wrote one article for them and was bombarded (well, 5 emails anyway) from "Risk Assessment Managers" from local councils. (Nope - I didn't realise that post existed or was even needed either) As many people have pointed out the bodies with the power to provide aires (or not) in the UK are local councils and they won't do it while they perceive the risks - vandalism, usage by the "travelling community" the ever-present risk of being sued by someone who trips over etc while using their property and the loss of trade to local campsites etc. - outweighing any advantages.

The Government could only play a part in the provision of aires if they decided to a) make it a legal requirement for councils to provide them (highly unlikely) or b) provide an inducement in the form of subsidies for local councils to build aires (equally unlikely).

Local councillors are answerable to their constituents and the majority of their constituents won't want their Council to spend money on a motorhome aire at the same time as they are closing down their local nursery/library/old people's home.

Good luck with the petition but you are petitioning the wrong people. The bad news is that the RIGHT people aren't interested in your cause - with the honourable exception of a few councils like Canterbury.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

We may be talking to people who don't want to listen but if we don't keep telling them at all levels how will they know what we would like to see or even that the need exists? 

Risk assessments are a very useful tool for people who don't want to do things if used in a negative way but the good news is that risks can be reduced and managed. France and Germany seem to have reduced and managed these same risks.

Are you really saying, "if at first you don't succeed, give up", Alan.


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## andyangyh (May 1, 2005)

erneboy said:


> We may be talking to people who don't want to listen but if we don't keep telling them at all levels how will they know what we would like to see or even that the need exists?
> 
> Risk assessments are a very useful tool for people who don't want to do things if used in a negative way but the good news is that risks can be reduced and managed. France and Germany seem to have reduced and managed these same risks.
> 
> Are you really saying, "if at first you don't succeed, give up", Alan.


No - I'm saying "If at first you don't succeed try a different approach". The situation in France and Germany is different from here. Take France as an example. After the First World War the government of France set up the Municipal campsites as a way of providing cheap holidays for their population. When these started to become too expensive to run or not well used a lot closed. When this happened a lot of French towns, recognising how much business these sites had brought into the towns shops etc. were very open to the idea of an alternative. That tradition never existed here.

France also has a different form of local government. A lot of power is devolved to the communes and the culture of "no win - no fee" is alien to them so French communes (the equivalent to our local council) don't employ Risk Management Managers so they don't see many of the risks that ours do. They also have a very robust approach to any "itinerants" that use the aires. France provides plenty of sites for the "Gens de Voyages" and this means that they can reasonably expect any "travellers" to use their own sites and the local gendarmes will swiftly and "energetically" - if necessary - make this point to anyone with a Hobby caravan and a white van who parks on an aire.

Any strategy to bring about change should first be subject to a SWOT analysis. (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats). At the moment the case for a council providing an aire has (as they see it) few strengths and lots of weaknesses. They don't see the opportunities either. Keep trying, by all means but be aware that, as far as most councils in this country are concerned, the perceived risks of providing a motorhome aire far outweigh any benefits. Just saying that we want aires isn't going to do it. Any campaign needs to have a strong economic case - more business brought into the town's businesses (with real figures to back it up as they have in France). It also needs better support from motorhomers than shown by motorhomers who managed to get the facility at Dawlish closed down by their behaviour. Also remember that many aires in France now charge. Compare the cost of a night at Le Touquet, for example, with the average charge for a CL or CS in this country and you'll find is cheaper to stay on a 5 van site here than on some aires in France.


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