# Driving an RV and Towing a Race car



## 105298 (Jun 19, 2007)

Hi,

I would very much appreciate some help. We are currently looking at buying a RV. I take part in club motorsport so we are looking to use the RV for family holidays and to provide some comfortable accomadation in the paddock at race circuits.

So I need to tow a race car behind the RV when travelling to the circuit
This has thrown up some wrinkles.
Because I qualified as a driver prior to 97 I am entitled to classes c1 + E
Which is vehicles up to 7.5 tonnes + a trailer where the combination is
less than 8.25 tonnes.

Now my proposed RVis likely to plated at 7.5t Max Allowable
Weight

My trailer is plated at 1500KG Max Allowable Weight. Which would allow me to tow the racer and possibly also my wifes car when we aren't going to the circuit.

The weight of the physical combination is likely to below the 8250 limit on the road. But the combined plated value is 9000Kg... which is over the limit.

DVLA suggest that the driving entitlement is based on the "plated"
values so I would not be entitled to drive this combination, despite the
fact that actual physical weight would be well under the 8250 limit.

So does does this lead to a scenario where I wouldn't be prosecuted for
being overweight, but could lead to a scenario where I might be
prosecuted for driving a vehicle combination to which I wasn't entitled?

Is theres a solution.... a friend has suggested downplating the RV to 6750KG. Is this feasible?

Many thanks in advance.

Plus I guess I'll soon come up with a thousand newbie questions in the near future too

And one just occurs to me. I've driven a 7.5 tonne truck on occasion when helping frinds move house. YOu soon get used to it... is it the same with RVs or are a couple of driving lessons a wise idea?

Cheers

Adrian


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## chapter (May 1, 2005)

you can take a psv test that seems to the rv way to go


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## johng1974 (Jan 17, 2007)

Hi Adrian, others will know soo much more than me, but I am sure your plated wieght wont matter, as long as your combined wieght is legal.... i.e. under 7500

John


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi sorry your plated weight will matter as that is what they go by. don't matter whether the trailer is loaded or not 1500kg is the plated weight.

Olley


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## Bikerbabewing (Feb 22, 2007)

Hi Adrian,
I have in front of me a leaflet which i aquired from the DVLA stand at the peterborough show on Sunday, it's *Driving Licensing requirements for towing trailers in Great Britain, * it states:

*Subcategory C1+E - Large sized goods vehicles 3.5 - 7.5 tonnes MAM plus trailer over 750kg MAM*
Subcategory C1+E allows vehicles to be combined with a trailer over 750kg MAM provided the combination does not exceed 12 tonnes MAM and the laden weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle.

Hope this helps

Wendy

P.S I suppose someone will come along and say that I'm totaly wrong, but I am only quoting from a DVLA official leaflet


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## Superk (Aug 22, 2005)

I think this is the information you need - as already stated it is the Maximum Authorised Mass not the actual weight that counts. I have added the dimension rules for motorhomes as well as many RVs do not comply.

Are you thinking of buying or hiring a motorhome (motor caravan) to get to your holiday destination? Or maybe you want to import one from another country. Before you decide you'll need to check the entitlement you hold on your driving licence and the size of motorhome you are going to drive.
The entitlement needed on your driving licence
You will need to check that your driving licence gives you entitlement to drive a motorhome. The categories shown on your licence allow you to drive vehicles up to certain weights, known as the maximum authorised mass (MAM).
Category B (car) entitlement
You can drive vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM, together with a trailer not exceeding 750 kilograms. To tow a heavier trailer you will need category B+E entitlement.
Category C1 entitlement
You can drive vehicles over 3.5 tonnes MAM but less than 7.5 tonnes (with or without a trailer up to 750 kilograms). To tow a heavier trailer you will need category C1+E entitlement.

If you passed the category C1+E test:

before 1 January 1997 (shown as C1+E (107) on the licence) you are limited to driving such combinations up to a combined weight of 8.25 tonnes eg motorhome 6 tonnes, trailer 2.25 tonnes
after 1 January 1997 you are entitled to drive combinations up to 12 tonnes in weight where the MAM of the trailer exceeds 750 kilograms but does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle
Category C entitlement
You can drive vehicles over 7.5 tonnes MAM. To draw a trailer over 750 kilograms you will need category C+E entitlement. Motorhomes of this weight cannot be driven on a standard category B (car) licence, irrespective of when that category B entitlement was obtained.
The size of the motorhome
The maximum size of a motorhome allowed in Great Britain is 12m in length and 2.55m in width. There is no maximum limit on the height, but if the vehicle is more than 3m tall, then the height must be measured and displayed (in imperial units and preferably metric as well) on a notice clearly visible to you as the driver.
Parts of the vehicle that can be ignored when measuring overall width and length
For width ignore:

driving mirrors
lamps
reflectors
distortion in tyres due to loading
For length ignore:

driving mirrors
rearward projecting buffers made of rubber or other resilient material
Who set the current limits
The Department for Transport (DfT) imposes the current limits that are contained in the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (as amended). Representatives from European countries, including the UK, agreed to impose these limits throughout Europe.
Why these current limits were set
A number of factors were taken into consideration, such as existing restrictions in different countries, vehicle manoeuvrability and typical road specifications. Also, the overall size of large vehicles that can create an unacceptable safety hazard for adjacent property, vehicles and pedestrians, but especially for oncoming traffic.
No plans to change the law
DfT has no plans to change the law on the maximum dimensions of a motorhome, or indeed of any other vehicle.
Whose responsibility is it for the motorhome to meet the law?
Anyone selling, or offering to supply, a motorhome is responsible for ensuring that the size of the vehicle is within the law. It is an offence under the Road Traffic Act 1988 if a motorhome that is too long or too wide is offered for sale.

As a customer, it is a good idea for you to be aware of the law, as ignorance of the law is not a defence in court. Your insurance cover may also be invalid if your vehicle does not meet the requirements of the law.
Why are larger vehicles allowed in North America but not in Europe?
The road traffic laws in Europe have many differences to those in North America, on a variety of subjects not only maximum length and width. Roads in North America are generally wider than in Europe and property is often set back further from the road.


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## 105298 (Jun 19, 2007)

*So is down plating a possibility?*

Many thanks to you all for your prompt replies.

So my options seem to be

a) Take the test and expand my c1+e pre 97 licence to remove the (107) clause that limits me to 8250KGs and gives me C1+ E "Proper" which allows me to to drive a 7.5 tonne MAM RV + 4.5 tonne MAM trailer due to the higher 1200KG combined MAM limit.

b) Get the RV down plated to 6750 KG from 7500KG. To give me a combination value of 7500 which is legal on my existing licence provision. Is this possible, what is the actual weight of an RV? I'm looking at a 99 Holiday Rambler Vacationer without slideouts.

If I down plated it to 6750 would I have any appreciable payload for fuel water, food, family, kit and spares before being illegal due to being overweight?

c) Go the whole hog and update to a full LGV Class C + E Licence

Hmm, how much does driver training cost I wonder.

Cheers

Adrian


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## Superk (Aug 22, 2005)

There is no way that you can down rate a Holiday Rambler Vacationer and carry your self let alone any other goods - we had a 2001 model Vacationer I don't think it was a lot different to the 1999 model. Driving lessons can cost from £600 to £1,000 - if you have an RV that exceeds 7.5 tonnes MAM and a trailer with a MAM over 750 Kgs then you have to take two tests - one in a rigid vehicle the other in an articulated truck or one with a suitable trailer.
Here's a little bit of info from my book due out this month:'How Katie Pulled Boris - Travels with an American RV in Europe':
'Our Vacationer unladen weighed 7.7-metric-tonnes, tempting a down rating to the magic 7.5-tonnes when an LGV licence wouldn't be required. However, that would mean we couldn't carry Kate Moss let alone her wardrobe, whereas it was made to carry 1.9-tonnes of stuff including water, propane, food, and all the people who will eat it plus their gear giving it a Gross Vehicle Weight of 9.3-tonnes. I had to get an LGV licence or, be a 7.5-tonne (fully laden) lawbreaker, and as the insurance company said they wouldn't start cover until I had one there seemed no other option ...............'


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## tuscancouple (Jan 29, 2007)

Adrian

Welcome to licence hell! We like you want to tow our car, a Tuscan, behind the RV however as you've found out not an easy answer. As we would like a RV >7.5T and we want to tow the car, although the total weight will be <12T because the RV is >7.5T it's C+E. Looking forward to driving a artic in my spare time 

Mick


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

Superk is right Im afraid. You cant get away with taking one test in a rigid HGV, if you do that you can drive a larger RV but can still only tow a trailer of 750kg. To pull a car behind an RV legally you are going to have to take two tests, the rigid one then the artic / trailer one. A call to the authorities will confirm all this. Ive had to change my plans now because of it. Theres no way Im spending thousands on an RV plus £2000 to take two tests at my age, plus also have to satisfy the stringent medicals that all HGV drivers have to take over a certain age. Im very fit at the moment but who knows as Im nearing retiring age whats round the corner. The only alternative possibly for you is to buy one of the smaller RVs that weighs 6 ton or under and keep the weight of the trailer and race car under the 2250kg.

Theres a lot of misguided info flowing around concerning RV weights and a lot of people using them on car licences who are clearly overweight and even towing cars. What happens if they have an accident and possibly kill somebody, the police are going to check & double check anything and everything with a fine tooth comb to find something or somebody to blame, it just aint worth the risk in my book so Im staying with my european van which I have the surplus weight allowance for towing with comfortably.


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## 105298 (Jun 19, 2007)

*Yes I'm a letter of the law type person*

I agree. 2k to drive an Arctic is pretty steep and, I just want to tow my racer . Which BTW I can tow with my Peugeot 406 quite legally and that is a much more unstable combination.

Actually you only need to take 1practical test to extend a pre 97 driving licence to the full C1+ e 12 tonne entitlement. You need to take the C1+E practical, the C theory and the medical. 
DVLA confirmed this today and the link is here 
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022564

I've actually discovered today that there are now (well July 1st) very stringent requirements for the c1+e test vehicles, so I cant even buy the RV get some training and then extend my entitlement to the full c1+e 12 tonnes entitlement before I tow anything as the RV doesn't have a manual 8 speed gearbox required from a test vehicle.

Plus guess what? The training companies don't get asked for this upgrade very often so they won't be equipping themselves with suitable test vehicles either. So C+E is the only way, unless I can find someone to lend\loan\rent me a suitable combination

So currently I'm looking for an RV with an unladen\kerb weight in the area of 5.25 tonnes and a MAM weight of 7.5. I can then down rate the RV to 6.75 tonnes and still have 1.5 tonnes payload for family, food, fuel, water, waste and spares. Combine this with my 1.5K trailer MAM and then I'll be legal.

SO anything I'm looking at is going to need a visit to the weighbridge before I part with my cash.

Any Idea how much I should allow for a minimum payload? 1000KG... 1200KG....1400KG?

Now after talking to various dealers it appears that most RVs pre 1999 have less heavy duty chassis and therefore have lower Kerb weights than their later counterparts while still being MAM plated at 7.5K, thus these give me the opportunity of downplating the RV while still having a decent payload. It seems that later models have heavier chassis as at about this time the yank manufacturers started to beef it up so that their maximum payload weights also increased. As this is what is important to to the American market economics.

I too am a letter of the law guy. Insurance comapanies are in general squirmy weasels who will find anyway to get out of paying a claim, But If I am driving an illegal combination then they are quite within their rights to reject a claim and the CPS are quite right to prosecute me.

I'll not take that chance.

Also my trailer only needs to be plated at 1200KG for the racer so I could downplate that for some additional leeway.


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

Just read all this from your link to the DVLA website adrian and am even more confused.

Subcategory C1: Medium sized goods vehicles 3.5 - 7.5 tonnes MAM
Subcategory C1 vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM allowing a combination of up to 8.25 tonnes MAM. But unlike category B, the 750kgs MAM trailer weight limit is an absolute limit.

In order to gain this entitlement category B licence holders have to meet higher medical standards and pass both theory and practical tests for subcategory C1.
Subcategory C1+E: Medium sized goods vehicles 3.5 - 7.5 tonnes MAM plus trailer over 750kgs MAM
Subcategory C1+E allows vehicles to be combined with a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the combination does not exceed 12 tonnes MAM and the laden weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle.

In order to gain this entitlement category B licence holders have to pass further tests - subcategory C1 (theory and practical) followed by C1+E practical. There is no subcategory C1+E theory test. It will not be possible to go directly from category B to subcategory C1+E.

Because EC regulations limit drivers aged under 21 years to driving vehicles or combinations which weigh no more than 7.5 tonnes MAM, drivers under the age of 21 are not allowed to drive subcategory C1+E vehicles up to 12 tonnes MAM. But 18 year old drivers are allowed to take a test for subcategory C1+E which will allow trailers in excess of 750kgs MAM to be towed. Entitlement is limited to a combination weight of 7.5 tonnes MAM until the driver reaches 21 years, at which time the balance of 12 tonnes MAM entitlement automatically becomes effective


So after being told by all and sundry over the years that I needed to take an additional test for a C licence I find that my licence pre 1997 may cover me already for a combined weight of a vehicle ( no more than 7.5 tonnes) + trailer upto 12 tonnes max.

My licence reads like this,
A.B.BE.B1.C1.C1E.D1.D1E,f,k,i,n,p. I only ever took a car test around 1963.

So can somebody a bit cleverer at reading government documents please tell me if I personally need to take a further test to cover me to drive a vehicle no more than 7.5 tonnes but more importantly tow a trailer of more than 750kg behind that vehicle.

Im more confused than ever after reading that document because if you read it word for word one minute theyre telling you if you have CIE you are ok to drive that combination but in the next chapter theyre telling you to get a provisional to take a C1E.


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## 105298 (Jun 19, 2007)

*The Way I read it*

Is as follows (and this was confirmed by DVLA)

If you qualified pre 97 then you are already qualified to C1+E (107). These rights were awarded (The term is grandfathered )in 97

The (107) note is that the combined MAM of the two vehicles is limited to 8250 kg. But you can extend this to 12 Tonnes combined MAM by taking the C1+E test. and in either case the trailer can be >750KG provided the total weight limit is not broken.

Now if you qualified after 97 you do not have the C1+E entitlement. So you have to earn it by passing the tests
Now there are two tests C1 and C1+E to upgrade your B Licence.

Take the C1 and you can drive a 7.5 tonner and an optional minitrailer upto 750KG (Just like post 97 drivers can drive a B car and smaller trailer without the additonal B+E qualification, Pre 97 drivers automatically get B+E so can do bigger trailers). 
In this sense the earned C1 Qualification includes "free" trailers less 750KG.

If you are a post 97 qualified driver you must take C1 test and then C1+E test to further upgrade to C1+E and be allowed larger trailers upto 12000KG combined MAM.

So in summary

Pre 97 Qualified
You have C1 + E (107) and can do a combination of upto 8250KG MAM and the trailer can be bigger than 750KG.provided the total is <8250 Take the C1+E test, The C theory and get a medical to get and "earned" C1+E and gain access to combinations upto 12000KG

Post 97 Qualified
You do not have C1 qualification.
Take the C1 test and get to drive 7.5 tonners and the included "free" trailer entitle ment of Max 750KG.

Top get bigger trailers Take C1+E test and then combinations upto 12000KG become avialable.

The Trick is to know that earned C1 (ie not a pre 97 with grandfathered rights but achieved by taking the seperate test )includes a free mini trailer of max 750KG. so the combination can be 8250Kg

Earned "full" C1+E achieved by taking the test allows combinations upto 12000KG and trailers are not limited to 750KG

Grandfathered C1+E (107) given to pre 97 drivers is a halfway house. It gives 8250KG MAX combination weight but the trailer can be bigger thatn 750KG. This is the loophole I'm hoping to exploit by downplating my RV so that I can get a combination of 8250 with a 1500KG trailer

Your licence may need updating to show your entitlements using the current code letters. They may well have changed over the years and you cannot assume that an entitlement listed on an old version of the license is still in force now.

Does that help?


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

Not really adrian because it still means at my age (over sixty) that I have to arse about taking a further test and spend a £1000 just to be able to tow our car behind a sensible sized RV of 7.5 tonnes max. I also have to hope that I stay fit enough to keep passing quite stringent HGV medicals If you downrate it like your intending then your not going to be able to carry anything. All your trying to do is cheat the figures but they still get you in the end. The only sensible way to go if you want an RV is to go with one of the six tonners surely which will still give you 2.5 tonne towing and carrying capacity for your licence.


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Hi Adrian
Have you considered a Coachmen Mirada? Geo has a 30 foot, 2001 model and it is quite lightweight, well under 7 tonnes anyway. If you contact Geo he will be able to give you the weight etc. It is a really good RV and would give you a reasonable sized motorhome with capacity for towing without messing around with downrating it matey.......

Good luck

Keith


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## 105298 (Jun 19, 2007)

Down plating is indeed a bit of a fudge and a last resort and I don't want to avoid one law just to break another by being overweight on a down plated RV.

Actually We have come around to the idea of a Mirada, I'm going to look at a one this afternoon.

Sorry, I'm new here and don't know Geo... can you point me at his site please

Cheers

Adrian


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## 105298 (Jun 19, 2007)

*Well we found one that fitted the bill *

I thought Id add a postscript to complete this thread. Eventually we found the right machine, at the right price and at the right weight

We (Kate and Adrian) are now the proud owners of a 30ft 98 Winnebago Itasca.

Plated MAM (GVWR) of the Winnebago is 6713
It has a payload of approx 1050KGs
Which when added to my trailer MAM of 1500Kgs
Gives me a combined train weight of 8213 Kgs which puts me nicely under my grandfathered C1+E licence limit of 8250Kg (by a margin of 37kgs)

In fact good Mrs M is keen to drive it too. 
. Inside it seems to be immaculate, bar a couple very minor bits of trim that need sticking down so we pronounce ourselves "Best pleased"

So hopefully I'll be parked next to SteveRobinson in a paddock sometime soon. I just need to get my racer fixed and get the motorhome MOT'd before mid August. Then I'll be looking at a Gas conversion.

To this end can anyone recommend a suitable MOT garage near Peterborough.

Cheers

Adrian


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