# Driving License



## loddy

Hello you big rig drivers

How many of you have taken the class C test to be able to drive your RVs,
The reason I ask is I have been given conflicting information by sellers of Large RVs, some say it's a grey area and you will be alright but when you talk to the DVLA they are very clear what you can and can't drive,

I replied to an advent in the magazine that said car license drive-able and talked to the seller about MGVW and he didn't have a clue, but was driving a large motor home on a car license, (what he did say was that his Rv had the weights in KG) who's been tampering with that ?

This is not a survey but any input would be appreciated

Loddy


----------



## 107088

Ok, so ,if your driving licence says you got C1E, then you can drive up to 7500 kgs.

Over 7500kgs, you need to do what used to be the class 2 hgv, but is now an HGV ( rigid) and even more deep joy, if you're rv is over 7500 kgs, and you want to tow a trailer over, I think 350 kgs, you got to get the C+E licence which was, the Articulated licence.

You need a medical £ 103.00 application for a provisional hgv licence, ( more money) then the course and tests which is around £900.00 

Oh, and the plated weight can be altered, by officialdom, to be in pounds or kilos. 

Anyway, theres NO GREY AREA, its der lorr.


----------



## ksebruce

bandaid said:


> Ok, so ,if your driving licence says you got C1E, then you can drive up to 7500 kgs.
> 
> Over 7500kgs, you need to do what used to be the class 2 hgv, but is now an HGV ( rigid) and even more deep joy, if you're rv is over 7500 kgs, and you want to tow a trailer over, I think 350 kgs, you got to get the C+E licence which was, the Articulated licence.
> 
> You need a medical £ 103.00 application for a provisional hgv licence, ( more money) then the course and tests which is around £900.00
> 
> Oh, and the plated weight can be altered, by officialdom, to be in pounds or kilos.
> 
> Anyway, theres NO GREY AREA, its der lorr.


Hmmm whilst I agree it may be sensible to obtain an hgv licence, my understanding was that in law you do not carry "goods" therefore you do not need an HGV and you do not carry enough passengers to require a PSV therefore the only other licence is a car licence. I believe this was researched by an ex member (G Telford) who went through all the relevant authorties and the conclusion was that in law you do not need an HGV licence to drive a "motorhome" irrespective of weight. I would be happy to be corrected.


----------



## aultymer

From the DVLA pages (it's really easy to find !!)

Copied and pasted.

The entitlement needed on your driving licence

You will need to check that your driving licence gives you entitlement to drive a motorhome. The categories shown on your licence allow you to drive vehicles up to certain weights, known as the maximum authorised mass (MAM).
Category B (car) entitlement

You can drive vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM, together with a trailer not exceeding 750 kilograms. To tow a heavier trailer you will need category B+E entitlement.
Category C1 entitlement

You can drive vehicles over 3.5 tonnes MAM but less than 7.5 tonnes (with or without a trailer up to 750 kilograms). To tow a heavier trailer you will need category C1+E entitlement.

If you passed the category C1+E test:

* before 1 January 1997 (shown as C1+E (107) on the licence) you are limited to driving such combinations up to a combined weight of 8.25 tonnes eg motorhome 6 tonnes, trailer 2.25 tonnes
* after 1 January 1997 you are entitled to drive combinations up to 12 tonnes in weight where the MAM of the trailer exceeds 750 kilograms but does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle

Category C entitlement

You can drive vehicles over 7.5 tonnes MAM. To draw a trailer over 750 kilograms you will need category C+E entitlement. Motorhomes of this weight cannot be driven on a standard category B (car) licence, irrespective of when that category B entitlement was obtained.
The size of the motorhome

The maximum size of a motorhome allowed in Great Britain is 12m in length and 2.55m in width. There is no maximum limit on the height, but if the vehicle is more than 3m tall, then the height must be measured and displayed (in imperial units and preferably metric as well) on a notice clearly visible to you as the driver.

End of pasted section.

There is NO grey area.

Please do a simple check on say Google (other search engines are available) before posting replies to legal questions.


----------



## olley

Hi its all down to FACTS and OPINIONS, the DVLA give an OPINION based on what they believe are the FACTS.

I believe GT's OPINION backed up by a lot of research was that according to the C&U, its not an HGV or a Coach which leaves only "Heavy Motor car" which means you can drive it on a car licence irrespective of weight.

Whether its sensible to do so is an entirly different matter. And I took my "C" because like the DVLA, GT's is only an OPINION.

Olley


----------



## RVNUT

Hi,
I still have the old paper license, I took my motorcycle test in 1960 and car test in 1964. My license says Class A, B, C1, D1, B+E, C1E, D1E, FKL, NP.
But I didn't take any tests other than the two above. I know I'm OK to drive an RV up to 7,500 kg on the C1 cat, and up to 8,250kg (inc trailer) with the C1+E.
I may just be 'grandfathered' in.


----------



## 107088

I got the info on what weights you can and cant drive from the nice welsh lady on the phone from the local DLVA office. 

I believed she'd given me the facts, which is why 
a I am currently taking me HGV test,
b I wasnt over worried about referencing it on a search engine. 

Apparently I stand corrected.

I'l ring the lady and tell her she's obviously given me duff information. :?


----------



## olley

Hi Bandaid, its not duff info its just an opinion, the DVLA's opinion. :lol: until it goes to court that's what it will remain, up to now know-body has every reported an instance of this happening. So maybe the DVLA ain't to sure of their opinion. :wink: 

From all the info that GT posted, in my opinion he was right, but I still did the test, because in my opinion you should have to take some sort of test to drive one. And he could be wrong. :lol: 

Olley


----------



## Rapide561

*Licence*

This is my view.

If I was to buy an RV tomorrow, weighing over 7500kg, I would drive it using HGV qualifications.

You cannot take the HGV test using your RV as the test vehicle.

I personally would base all the whys and wherefores on the weight of the vehicle - ie over 7500kg, HGV licence needed.

Whether that is right or wrong, remains to be seen.

Russell


----------



## 107088

Olly, I came to the conclusion that it was required to have an hgv type licence when I bought the RV.

I'm not certain it would be necessary as a " this is how to drive a large motor " , since, although limited to US roads, I drove 1500 miles in it before I gave it to the shipping company. In real terms, I didnt find it difficult.


But I'd rather be safe than the test case.

and if I need to find another person to drive it for a work commitment, I'll insist that person is hgv qualified. 

Maybe thats not a requirement, but then its my RV and I can make the rules then. :lol:


----------



## 107088

I didnt google this, but did get it straight from the DLVA site,

*10 Motorhomes
When driving a motorhome it is the 'maximum authorised mass'
(the total weight of the vehicles plus the maximum load it can
carry) which is relevant to the driving entitlement you need.
To drive a motorhome with a maximum authorised mass of
between 3.5 and 7.5 tonnes, you need a category C1 licence.
To drive a motorhome with a maximum authorised mass of
over 7.5 tonnes, you need a category C licence.
13*

seems the lady on the phone from the DLVA may have been right after all, unless some one is more expert than she?


----------



## olley

Hi bandaid your simply quoting the DVLA site and saying its the law, that isn't the case, even the DVLA admit they don't make the law they only interpret it. And their interpretion could be wrong.

The fact is that their is no such beast as a motorhome as far as licensing or taxing, look on your driving licence can you see a motorhome category? So they lumped us all in with the cars Class 4 mot. when it came to the heavier ones over 7.5tons they decided we needed a licence, they couldn't insist on a coach licence because thats seat related not weight related, so they called us a PHGV but we don't fit the legal definition of a PHGV.

All the legislation that governs vehicle weights was drawn up to cover HGV's, large motorhomes/RV's hadn't been throught of.

Now this is just mine and others opinion, but until its challenged in a court of law, which up to now it hasn't been, thats all it will remain.

By the way I took my "C" because I am not 100% certain my opinion is correct, :lol: :lol: and I thought it was a good idea anyway.

Olley


----------



## 101405

Just a point? Its Driving licence / not license not quite the U -S of A yet


----------



## olley

Ah pedants strike again. :lol: 

Olley

PS. According to the Oxford English Dictionary either way is correct.


----------



## loddy

Who wants to be the one to challenge it in a court of law? not I

Loddy

License Licence my spell-checker accepts both, but everyone knew what I was on about didn't they ?.


----------



## 107088

I dont want to be the test case either, but, earlier on in this thread I was taken to task, (maybe with others )for not going being absolute, and checking up before posting and saying its der lorr, even tho' I actually researched it before applying to my hgv. and consequently considered that if the DLVA tell me I need to comply with licence( sic) regs that must be at least a regulation.

Therefore, today, I went to the government site to check up, did what another post did, i.e. pasted and copied from the dlva, and .....and now, I'm still not offering the right answer. apparently. Please explain, somebody, how, just how can I be critqued for not copy and pasting the government, and then have the same for doing so?

DLVA Leaflet D100, entitled, ( with great imagination) what *you* need to *know *about *Driving Licences* ( their highlights and spelling) page 13, section 10. if anyones interested, and this is a page can be referenced on the DLVA website.

its like a virtual copy of my house. I'm always wrong there too.


----------



## 100734

olley said:


> Hi its all down to FACTS and OPINIONS, the DVLA give an OPINION based on what they believe are the FACTS.
> 
> I believe GT's OPINION backed up by a lot of research was that according to the C&U, its not an HGV or a Coach which leaves only "Heavy Motor car" which means you can drive it on a car licence irrespective of weight.
> 
> Whether its sensible to do so is an entirly different matter. And I took my "C" because like the DVLA, GT's is only an OPINION.
> 
> Olley


I agree with Olley and for once with George it is not law it is opinion. If you look at the definition of a goods vehicle, heavy or light. it a vehicle designed to carry or bear goods. Or was when I used teach road transport CPC. Certainly a motor home does not fit within that definition and so only leaves a heavy motor car which can be driven on a normal licence. As can 8 wheel plus mobile cranes weighing 40 tons or more.
But like Olley I have a LGV license and would suggest its best to have an LGV license rather than being the person to argue the case in court

Dave


----------



## 107088

Also from DLVA publication D100,

page 12

section 7.


----------



## olley

Hi Bandaid it will all be settled soon, 2010-2012 I believe when European harmonisation of driving licences takes place, nobody will be able to drive any motorhome over 3.5tons without a "C" and that includes "grandfather rights" you lose them.

Olley


----------



## 107088

Olley, I've neen f*rting around trying to make sense of this subject. I really would prefer to avoid 2 things,

(i) to be the test case whether an HGV is required

(ii) to cop for a pair of 3 pointers on my licence.

Mind I'd prefer not to have to pay out over a grand in total for the HGV if I dont need to , but I 'm not risking it.

Its ridiculous. On the DVLA website, it states " that it isnt the law, and you ( the reader) should consult a solicitor, then next to that it say, you need, *need* an HGV to drive a motorhome over 7500kgs.
theres even an offence code LC20 which is for driving a vehicle outside of the licence qualification.

:? :?: :?: :?

If nothing else, I aint gonna get picked up for not quoting references on the forum again I've learned that much anyway.


----------



## olley

Hi Bandaid I agree entirely :lol: 

Olley

PS. I often quote without references, gives people something to shout about. :wink:


----------



## ksebruce

Didn't mean to start a furore, sorry.


----------



## Zuma

Here we go again!! GT WAS WRONG

Now can any of the enlightened who are adamant that a C1/C licence is not required please show me where it states that in the Driving Licence Regs?

The Regs, if you care to read them, only refer to _*vehicles*_ of particular weights (unless its a passenger carrying vehicle where number of passenger seats is the determining factor), nowhere in the classifications do they mention the term HGV/Motorhome/Car/Heavy Motor Car etc.

Loddy, my advice is go and get yourself properly trained and licenced, protect yourself, your family and other road users and enjoy your driving 

Mark


----------



## teemyob

*Driver*

Hello,

Looking at the quotes facts and figures, it makes sense to take the HGV test, as expensive as it is. Lets face it RV's in comparison to your every day car, even a Toyota Landcruiser they are huge. So some training might be of benefit to a lot of people, especialy those who may have been limited to <3,500kG's.

Otherwise I suppose if you are a full timer and have no fixed address you could always tell them you are a Gypsy, they get away with almost everything else don't they?.

Trev.


----------



## loddy

Funny part is I have been driving a RV which weighs 7.5 tonnes for some time and I think I do it quite well. but because the new one I'm planning to buy weighs 1000lb more I will have to spend £1000 to drive an extra 1000lb
Loddy


----------



## 107088

wierd innit?


----------



## sprokit

Zuma said:


> Here we go again!! GT WAS WRONG
> 
> Now can any of the enlightened who are adamant that a C1/C licence is not required please show me where it states that in the Driving Licence Regs?
> 
> The Regs, if you care to read them, only refer to _*vehicles*_ of particular weights (unless its a passenger carrying vehicle where number of passenger seats is the determining factor), nowhere in the classifications do they mention the term HGV/Motorhome/Car/Heavy Motor Car etc.
> 
> Loddy, my advice is go and get yourself properly trained and licenced, protect yourself, your family and other road users and enjoy your driving
> 
> Mark


Couldn't agree more - Mark is 100% correct - if you want it in black and white have a look here - http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19962824_en_1.htm - "The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1996"

This is not a matter of opinion, be it DVLA or anyone else - it's on the Statute Books and is the law in the UK.

Keith (Sprokit)


----------



## 107088

Is this not what I said a hundred million post ago, at the start of this thread? 8O :roll:


----------



## Zuma

bandaid said:


> Is this not what I said a hundred million post ago, at the start of this thread? 8O :roll:


Yes you did!, my post was aimed at the non-believers 

Mark


----------



## 107088

Oh my word, Thank you, thank you, thank you x 10,000 :lol:


----------



## Wytonknaus

Just my two pence worth.

If you were to be driving outside of your licence entitlement, with or without the opinions stated on this thread would your insurance pay up in the case of an accident?????


----------



## Zuma

bandaid said:


> Oh my word, Thank you, thank you, thank you x 10,000 :lol:


******


----------



## 107088

I think, and I havent googled or researched this, but....I think you agree that everything about you and your vehicle must be legal when you take out the policy, 

Therefore, if you drive whilst unlicenced (?) then you're not legal on the road. therefore your insurance company would probably/possibly say your policy is not upheld, if thats the term, but basically I think maybe you could be nicked for driving whilst uninsured. possibly, its a thought, subject for discussion, all that stuff.


----------



## olley

sprokit said:


> [
> Couldn't agree more - Mark is 100% correct - if you want it in black and white have a look here - http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19962824_en_1.htm - "The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1996"
> 
> This is not a matter of opinion, be it DVLA or anyone else - it's on the Statute Books and is the law in the UK.
> 
> Keith (Sprokit)


Before you all start a round of applause why does it say in section ten "restrictions on the grant of large goods and passenger carrying vehicle drivers licences"

The statutory instrument if you bother to read it refers to LGV's "Large Goods Vehicles" which an RV is not.

Olley


----------



## 107088

Still only mentions the MAM of the vehicle, not what you use it for, or carry in it, or if you get paid in money or moneys worth for carrying anything in it.

Unless I'm going completely mental. 



which, on reflection, (especially on this subject) is a fair possibility. :?


----------



## olley

Hi Bandaid, you don't have to be mad to post here, but it helps. :lol: :lol: 

Olley


----------



## 107088

Good thing I'm a tractor. tractors dont have feelings.

Look how they work us, out in all weathers, rub down twice a year with an oily rag...


----------



## olley

oooooooooooooooooh rub down with an oily rag, sounds so gooooooooooooood........... sorry getting carried away their. 

Here is the big post from years ago on this subject, starring GT, read and enjoy, if it doesn't send you mad nothing will: http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-106966.html#106966

Olley


----------



## 107088

Olley, its clear this thread is getting to be the same as that one, 

I have a new theory, which goes along the lines of:

There aint a definitive answer which all will accept.
Therefore, I'm going to suggest that, 

theres some who say you dont and some who say you do need a C class licence for over 7500kgs. So, you can either, take the test or not, it 's up to you. 
Anyone, from either side of the fence who says, " I told you so " if any repercussions happen will be shot. With a blunt bullet. 

My personnal decision is, if I get written undertakings to pay the all my legal costs, I'll risk prosecution and not take the test.

up til then, I'm going to do it.


----------



## 107088

*Oh for crying out loud, more thinking dome, and possibly*

changing my mind now.

After the last few posts, I decided it would be useful to do a bit of checking. 
Now, I know I'm no lawyer, but I do know that the whole system runs on definitions. Definition of theft, definition of murder etc.

SO, clever old me I thought I'd find the definition of a goods vehicle. heavy or otherwise.

I went to the posted Police National database, and realised swiftly that unless you want a political answer you're better of asking a greengrocer than that site.

So, heres a little ditty that I have ( this time ) pasted and copied.

EIM22991 - Heavy goods vehicles: definition
Section 238(4) ITEPA 2003
For the purposes of the exemption from a benefits charge on heavy goods vehicles (see EIM22990), heavy goods vehicle means a mechanically propelled road vehicle that is:
•	of a construction primarily suited for the carriage of goods or burden of any kind and
•	designed or adapted to have a maximum weight exceeding 3,500 kilograms when in normal use and travelling on a road laden.

So, with my limited experience, I decided to see if the definition applied to my Rv, and thereby, probably find out if I need an HGV licence.

Ok. HGV is primarily constructed for the carriage of goods or burden_

see definition of goods

Items of merchandise, finished products, supplies, or raw materials. Sometimes the term is extended to cover all inventoriable items or assets such as cash, supplies, and fixed assets.

Well, my RV aint. most certainly not, the only thing thats a commercial base is the chassis, and I reckon thats a possible 20% of the construction.

so I think, emphasis on think, that because, as I see it, the definition fails in the first sentence, as its not constructed primaruily for, and I certainly couldn't carry goods as defined.

Then its not an HGV and therefore, an HGV isnt required.

Right, so I have, thus far, changed my mind, but would appreciate legal or even any opinion n these few points.

again._


----------



## sprokit

*Oh for crying out loud!!*

Fairly long post - if you're not interested in Driving Licences, hit the back button now 8)

bandaid

It goes a bit deeper than looking on the PNC and a dictionary. 8O

How about the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986 - definitions - 'goods vehicle' - a motor vehicle or trailer constructed or adapted for use for the carriage or haulage of goods or burden of any description.

Up to this point I agree with you. :lol:

But - definition of a 'motor vehicle' - a mechanically propelled vehicle intended or adapted for use on roads.

The Motor Vehicle (Driving Licences) Regulations 1996 has the following to say about driving licences and motor vehicles - 
Classification of vehicles
4. (1) Subject to regulation 5, the licensing authority shall grant licences authorising the driving of motor vehicles in accordance with the categories and sub-categories specified in column (1) and defined in column (2) of Schedule 2 and those categories and sub-categories are designated as groups for the purposes of section 89(1)(b) of the Traffic Act.

(2) In these Regulations, expressions relating to vehicle categories have the following meanings-

(a) any reference to a category or sub-category identified by letter, number or word or by a combination thereof is a reference to the category or sub-category defined in column (2) of Schedule 2 opposite that letter or combination in column (1) of the Schedule,

(b) "sub-category" means, in relation to category A, B, C, C + E, D or D + E, a class of vehicles comprising part of the category and identified as a sub-category thereof in column (2) of Schedule 2, and

(c) unless the context otherwise requires, a reference to a category includes a reference to sub-categories of that category.

The relevant parts of Schedule 2 are below:

Category B	
Any motor vehicle, other than a vehicle included in category A, F or P, having a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 3.5 tonnes and not more than 8 seats in addition to the driver's seat, including-
(i) a combination of such a vehicle and a trailer where the trailer has a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 750 kg, and
(ii) a combination of such a vehicle and a trailer where the maximum authorised mass of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and the maximum authorised mass of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the tractor vehicle.

Category C
Any motor vehicle having a maximum authorised mass exceeding 3.5 tonnes, other than a vehicle falling within category D, F, G or H, including such a vehicle drawing a trailer having a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 750 kilograms.

Category C1
A sub-category of category C comprising motor vehicles having a maximum authorised mass exceeding 3.5 tonnes but not exceeding 7.5 tonnes, including such a vehicle drawing a trailer having a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 750 kilograms.

Category C + E
Combination of a motor vehicle and trailer where the tractor vehicle is in category C but the combination does not fall within that category.

Category C1 + E	
A sub-category of category C + E comprising any combination of a motor vehicle and trailer where-
(a) the tractor vehicle is in sub-category C1,
(b) the maximum authorised mass of the trailer exceeds 750 kilograms but not the unladen weight of the tractor vehicle, and
(c) the maximum authorised mass of the combination does not exceed 12 tonnes.

You will note that nowhere in the Driving Licence Regulations does it refer to 'goods vehicle' - as Mark said in an earlier post (and I agreed with, to the extent of putting the link in for the above regulations) everything relates to weight (or in the case of a Passenger Carrying Vehicle, to seating capacity).

I re-iterate - if your vehicle has a permitted Maximum Gross Weight in excess of 7,500 kilograms - you need a Category C driving licence. :evil:

Have another think - GT was wrong, and one of the unbelievers will get stopped and prosecuted one of these days, perhaps a fine and points on a licence will eventually convince people - do you really want to be the person who falls foul of the law? :roll:

Keith (Sprokit)


----------



## 107088

I gave up on the PNC as it was useless, and found the posted definitions of the Websites for Dept.Transport, therefore I applied the definitions of Goods and HGV as giveen by the legislators themselves. It would be lovely if the people who legislate would have a chat to make sure theyre all on the same page of the book dont you think?

Well, this is the problem for me. As you will have seen by my earlier posts, the DLVA states that, in agreeance with you that anything over 7500 kg, ( in my case) you need an hgv licence. 

MY latest thought is that what actually is required is a specific licence class for motor vehicles over 7500 kg whether or not they have lots of seats or cart stuff about for payment. 

the situation at present has too many apparently contradictory information published by authority, and theres far too much room for debate and opinion. I have searched for ages on verious website which give case law, and cant find anything in the timescales relevant to such sites which are regarding Motorhomes driven without correct licences in the terms which we are discussing it, ( i.e. over 7500kg withhout the hgv licence,)

I cant see that it would be a problem for the beaurocracy to some up with a definitive answer, theres plenty of m/h over the 7500 kg weight line, the same as self propelled rollers etc. 

As I said earlier, I don't want to be the test case, but would prefer not to have the 1000 pounds or so bill for taking an uneccessary test. 

The other noticable thing about your post, (and this obviously isn't your doing,) is that its really wordy, complicated and full of legalese. Its almost as if the author(s) has decided to make the info so entangled its difficult for a single obvious absolute to be found by the " reasonable man", which is, after all, the person mostl likely to need to decide how to proceed without repercussions. 



I took another look at the DLVA published information, and other poster are quite correct, they all have a disclaimer which states the information published is opinion, not the law, and if we got it wrong its not our fault and serves you right for believing us ( which is useful) so, maybe it all boils down to " you takes a risk youpays the price " which is something I for one, am not prepared to do. 

So it looks like I shall be " investing " the thousand odd squid after all.

bugger. ...........

unless I change my mind, again.


I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure.

:roll:


----------



## sprokit

*Oh for crying out loud!!*



bandaid said:


> ...............
> 
> Well, this is the problem for me. As you will have seen by my earlier posts, the DLVA states that, in agreeance with you that anything over 7500 kg, ( in my case) you need an hgv licence.
> 
> MY latest thought is that what actually is required is a specific licence class for motor vehicles over 7500 kg whether or not they have lots of seats or cart stuff about for payment.


No problem - the regulations just doesn't mention HGV - all categories are referred to as 'motor vehicles' - the old HGV licence no longer exists, we now have a "Harmonised European Licence" i.e. the categories are the same throughout Europe - the licence required for 'motor vehicles' over 7,500 kilograms is a Category 'C' not B or C1 (someone also posted about driving a 40 tonne crane on a car licence - not anymore - mobile plant come under the same umberella and it's the Gross Vehicle Weight / Train Weight which triggers the requirement), category 'C' covers all rigid vehicles (irrespective of the number of axles) with a GVW over 7,500 kilograms.



> As I said earlier, I don't want to be the test case, but would prefer not to have the 1000 pounds or so bill for taking an uneccessary test.


If you already have experience of driving vehicles up to 7,500 kilograms, why not ask an HGV driving school to do an assessment of your driving skills with a view to taking the 'C' licence - they'll probably charge you for the assessment, but it won't be anywhere near £1000 - and if it's favourable, arrange to take the driving test and hire their vehicle for the test - again, it isn't going to cost you £1000 to do it this way.



> The other noticable thing about your post, (and this obviously isn't your doing,) is that its really wordy, complicated and full of legalese. Its almost as if the author(s) has decided to make the info so entangled its difficult for a single obvious absolute to be found by the " reasonable man", which is, after all, the person mostl likely to need to decide how to proceed without repercussions.


It's full of legalise because these are direct quotes from the relevant legislation - legislation is written in this fashion to prevent ambiguity - there is no avenue for mis-interpretation.



> I took another look at the DLVA published information, and other poster are quite correct, they all have a disclaimer which states the information published is opinion, not the law, and if we got it wrong its not our fault and serves you right for believing us ( which is useful) so, maybe it all boils down to " you takes a risk youpays the price " which is something I for one, am not prepared to do.


That's always the way I'm afraid - only the courts can decide what is and what is not 'legal' and it's the job of the High Court and failing an agreement from them, the European Court of Justice to make the final decision. Isn't it wonderful - no wonder we have all these arguements about law. :twisted:

Hoping that this is the end of this thread, 'cos I need to get out more, and it's a lovely sunny day.

Keith (Sprokit)


----------



## 107088

I got to get out too. I got 4 trips to the tip sorted out. And thanks for the posts and your tolerance, it makes a change not to castigated, sometimes none too gently, by the more smug and all knowing on here. :wink:


----------



## T4ndy

*Clear as mud?*

 Sorry to muddy the waters a little but can someone clear something up for me?

I notice a lot of dealers say that there vehicle weighs under the magic 7.5 tonnes and can be driven on a normal license. This gives me the impression that if the empty vehicle weighs only a gram under 7.5 tonnes I don't need to get my LGV license, BUT I thought I needed an LGV license if my FULLY LADEN vehicle weighed more than 7.5 tonnes ? ie empty RV (7.49999 tonnes) add a cup of tea (2 grams) = LGV license.

What do you think?

Andy


----------



## loddy

Unfortunately there are dealers who will tell you that the rvs they sell are car licence drivable, but when you check the chassis plate it states max gross weight 22000 lbs ????????

I think they should be taken to task for misleading the purchasers

Loddy


----------



## 107088

Andy I dont think its possible to muddy the waters really, This subject is slurry already, according to whatever you read/hear last, you either do, or dont need a C class licence. 

I read the ( not law apparently) advice from the DLVA, which says, as long as your Maximum Allowed Mass is over 7500 kgs, you need to take the test. So thats the " unladen weight plus the weight of your loading margin"

I appreciate its opinion from the DLVA, and not staute, but.....and this is my opinon... the Courts and Police will take it as law, and possibly you could be reported.

Others read it as theres no motorhome registered as an HGV so you dont apply the Driving licence requirements to motorhomes. 

Dunno mate. All I can say is, I took my test, and now in reality I dont worry about the weight checks, Police cars.

Mind you down here you never have to worry about Police weight checks, as they've all been replaced by cameras , I know its not a joking matter but it drove me mental before I thought Bugger, I'll take it anyway.



Anyway, how did you get your Gulfstream under the 7500 kgs mark, mines 10750 kgs unladen. and just to rub it in, I pick it up temorrer.


----------



## Rapide561

*Rv's*

Hi

I had a close look at a 2007 Damon Daybreak 3272 last year. The bus was sold as "drive on your car licence" - so 7500 kg was the gross weight.

The same Damon, in the US - Workhorse chassis - has a max weight of 18000 lbs - so on the basis of 2.2 pounds to a kilo - that is 8181 kgs.

I fully understand that a chassis can be downrated, but the buyer should be aware of this.

I calculated that, with the particular motorhome I looked at, I could never travel with fresh water in the tanks, in order to keep the weight down.

If I was buying an RV tomo - sold as "drive on car licence", I would insist on taking the thing to the weghbridge - when tanks are full, plus an allowance for the driver - and see the figures just how Swift present theirs. I am certain my Kontiki has a far higher payload than many RVs on the road.

Nothing against RV's - I love 'em.

R

I am going to read the long GT thread now to pass a bit of time.


----------



## T4ndy

Our Gulfstream is not due into Southampton until a week Saturday.

I have heard that the Sunvoyager 8292 has been registered under the magic 7.5 number but I'm not sure if that is ton or tonnes?? (Just to confuse things further)

I haven't seen the DVLA registration form yet so can you tell me does it ask for vehicle weight(does it state tonnes/tons/KG) or do they want the maximium weight that can be carried as stated on the plate?

Thanks,

Andy


----------



## T4ndy

Adrian I've just re-read your post and noticed you've got your LGV license.

Congrats!!

When did you take it and how did it go?

I took my theory on Friday, and I start my 5 day crash (probably not the best word to use) course next week, culminating it taking the test 2 weeks today. Wish me luck.

Andy


----------



## 107088

I cheated slightly, I went to Crawley and did a 2 hour assessment of my driving " abilitiy" The instructor said I would be ok on the basis of that, and I already had the Mulitple guess test etc. done, so I put in for the test, for the crack, and bugger me backwards with a big stick....passed.

Much to my surprise.

and the bestest luck to you. 

I havent looked at the documents for registration yet, but I'll get round to it at some point. I think the weights on the documents, as I recall from the one I brought in from Germany, but the lady behind the counter was confused byt eh thousands of documents I handed over, they were all in german, so she sat down and guessed.


----------



## Rapide561

*RV*

Mmmm

That was not the GT thread I was hoping for. Does anyone know where the long, long GT thread is - the one that (I think) mentioned Travelworld and so on and on and on....

Bandaid - bugger you backwards! Is that sort of talk allowed, especially after all the talk about Avon Skin so Soft!

Goodnight!

Russell

Well done on the test though.


----------



## olley

Hi russell do you mean this one? http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-106966.html#106966

Olley


----------



## kezbea

As a retired HGV/LGV driving instructor D.S.A registered let me say to all about to book HGV course check that your instructor is registered DSA as this not. compulsory.
As for the licence to drive a large motorhome just ring your insurance as i put a lot of motor home owners through the test after they had done just this.
Good luck to all doing the test
Dave


----------



## sallytrafic

For those that like a legal argument and clearly some on here do, try this thread.

>Click here<

I especially commend reading as far as my post on hypothetical chocolate.

You will then note that it goes off topic and perhaps see why GT is no longer with us.


----------



## T4ndy

*Passed my LGV!! Hurrah!!*

 I have just passed my class c lgv \/

Now all I need to do is my C + E test and I'll be able to tow my car!!
:tomcat:

Actually I co-own a Joyner Buggy which is quite light. I wonder if I can tow it without the need for yet another test? :roll:

Any ideas anyone?

Andy

PS Just heard our RV has been delayed. It got moved off the boat that arrived on time last Saturday to another boat that due to arrive on Thursday. Ho Hum


----------



## olley

hi you can tow up a trailer with a MAM of 750kg anything over and you need a C+E. 

Except the Isle of Mann, pass your test there and for some reason you get the code 102 added which allows you to pull a draw-bar trailer, which I reckon an "A" frame or ordinary trailer can be described as.

Olley


----------



## asprn

olley said:


> hi you can tow up a trailer with a MAM of 750kg anything over and you need a C+E.


It's true, and it's an *extremely* annoying restriction when - like others - I can tow up to 8,250 kg with our without my Cat C LGV licence - this meant with the Kontiki, I could tow approximately 4,000kg, but with the RV after passing the LGV test, I can only tow 750kg! Luckily, My Trabant comes just under, but I'm also going to take my C+E soon to get rid of the restriction.

Dougie.


----------



## olley

hi dougie yes it is annoying, and its the MAM of the trailer not its weight that's the deciding factor, without a C+E its illegal to tow my trailer unloaded as its MAM is 1300kg. I would think your Trabant also has a MAM of more than 750kg.

As far as I know only cars like the French Axiam have MAM's under the magic number.  

Olley


----------



## teckie

<<<but I'm also going to take my C+E soon to get rid of the restriction. >>>

Hi Dougie... All this talk about Driving Licence's and towing weights etc is now confusing me and the extract above from your last posting I don't quiet see the reason !

My Licence covers the following Categories... A B B1 C C1 D D1 E so if I have the C and the E does that mean I am covered for what you are talking about ?.

Cheers

Teckie


----------



## 107088

Er....no. the C and E on your licence is not the same as a C+E. The C+E nowadays is the old LGV/HGV Artic qualification.


or it may not be,, cos this licencing stuff is obviously designed to be as complicated with what you can, cant,maydo, possibly, could be, E+MC2.



but no, I dont think that your licence qualifies you .


----------



## asprn

teckie said:


> My Licence covers the following Categories... A B B1 C C1 D D1 E so if I have the C and the E does that mean I am covered for what you are talking about ?


Nope. C+E (or "CE") is a specific category and shows you've passed what used to be called the Class 1 HGV test, i.e. articulated vehicles. I see you've got Category C, but unless you've passed a test for that category (ridgid LGV), it'll either have a qualifier code after it, or it'll be a provisional-only category, for which you have to apply (doesn't come automatically).



teckie said:


> I would think your Trabant also has a MAM of more than 750kg


Wrong [CHING].  It's less, although not by much. Duroplast body & all that.

Dougie.


----------

