# Vehicle Classification - Again



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Firstly, Apologies, as I know that some of this has been discussed on MHF before, but I am unable to find it despite a long trawl.

I am uncertain whether DVLA are correctly classifying MHs over 3500kg when they classify them as PHGV.

Can somebody with good knowledge please straighten out my understanding.

I am aware that the definition of a 'Goods' vehicle is 'one adapted for the carriage of goods'.

Leaving out, for the moment, the argument about whether certain items in the garage are necessary for the private use of the vehicle, if a MH described by DVLA on the V5 as 'BODY TYPE - Motor Caravan' does this description mean they have accepted the vehicle as not being a 'Goods Vehicle'?

PHGV is defined as a 'Goods Vehicle with Revenue weight in excess of 3500kg, used privately' To be a PHGV it would follow that it first has to be a 'Goods' vehicle, if not it is not a PHGV. Is this correct?

On another point;

DVLA 'Notes', so not the definitive law, state:-

"NOTES ABOUT TAX CLASSES

INTRODUCTION
Vehicles are classified for tax purposes according to their construction and the purpose for which they are used. The main classes and eligible vehicles are listed below:-

CLASS TYPE OF VEHICLE AND/OR USE

Private/Light Goods (PLG)

Vehicles registered before the 1.3.01: Private motor cars; goods vehicles not more than 3,500kg revenue weight; vehicles used for "private" (non-trade or business) purposes (including 3 wheeled vehicles over 450kg unladen). Vehicles registered after 1.3.01: vehicles that do not come into the scope of the first six tax classes, listed below."

[The next six categories are all specifically for vehicles under 3500kg so not relevant]

So, according to the paragraph above, a vehicle over 3500kg registered after 1.3.01, for which there is no reference to weight, and not and not falling within the six categories, is a 'Private/Light Goods (PLG)' vehicle.

Are the Notes contrary to the definitive law on this point?

I know that P/LGV are taxed higher, but I have a couple of reasons why a re-classification might be advantageous.

Any help please - even if it is just to where the answer is that I may have missed?

Geoff


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## Jean-Luc (Jul 21, 2005)

There are two 'types' of categorisation.

One is the EU DEFINITION OF VEHICLE CATEGORIES AND VEHICLE TYPES. this categorises motor caravans within 'Motor vehicles with at least four wheels designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers 
The other is the rate charged for road tax (fund) purposes is a local issue. Here it has been decided to accommodate the vehicle into an existing rate structure (probably as a result of laziness and no interest in assigning a dedicated category)

Here in Ireland 'motor caravans', for road tax purposes' are in the same charging structure as cars used on offshore islands and some road going construction equipment.

Here Body Type and Motor Tax class, in line with EU directive above as motor caravan, as is the EU category which is M (passenger vehicle).

While DVLA can impose whatever road fund licence rates the Government wishes, the category assigned to any vehicle is set out in the above directive.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Jean-Luc

Thanks. Unfortunately your EU link did not work, but I seem to recall that Directive and those vehicle category definitions apply to vehicles registered after mine (April 2003). Am I correct?

Re the laziness, I suspect DVLA might have applied the same 'scientific' approach!

Geoff


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

I'm not sure if this will help but the definitions are laid down in the C&U Regs. They are:

goods vehicle-a motor vehicle or trailer constructed or adapted for use for the carriage or haulage of goods or burden of any description.

passenger vehicle-a vehicle constructed solely for the carriage of passengers and their effects.

The department of transport has decided that a motorhome is a passenger vehicle (with the exception that you want to avoid getting into actually demonstrating the thinking). I have seen it described on their website as a modified passenger vehicle. It is this thinking that allows motorhomes to fall into the car speed limit categories. (Yes, I know - the 3050kg thing - don't go there :roll: )

As I understand it the taxation class is purely a weight thing around the 3500 kg figure. Oddly the heavier vehicle is cheaper to tax :? 

I'm not sure that any of this is any help to you.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Cronkie

I think that you are correct, however you say;-

'As I understand it the taxation class is purely a weight thing around the 3500 kg figure. Oddly the heavier vehicle is cheaper to tax Confused'

Certainly the DVLA use it for tax purposes, but other agencies state that the DVLA are the statutory authority for recording vehicle details and therefore those authorities are entitled to rely on DVLA records, unless challenged. I have not delved into the law on DVLA's authority - maybe tomorrow.

Geoff


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

There is a BIG difference between "vehicle type" classification as in Motor Car, Large Goods Vehicle, Motor bicycle etc etc and "vehicle taxation" class.

For some odd reason one has little bearing on the other and taxation class is weight dependant, therefore a "motor caravan" over 3500Kg MAM is classed as a Private Heavy Goods Vehicle and attracts a lower Road Fund Licence (tax disc) cost than a lighter vehicle. No I have nom idea why, just gratefull for the cheaper annual bill !! 

If you look at a coach weighing something like 12000 Kg you will see the annual Road Fund Licence is only about £350, many cars are a LOT more than that and which ones damage the roads the most ????? Dont try and apply ANY logic, there isnt any :roll: 

Of course once you gte over 3500Kg you are into another driving licence category UNLESS you passed your car test before 1st Jan 1997


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

I think that this may be what you are after:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/contents

I started to check but could feel a head ache coming on :?


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Mr.Plodd wrote

"...therefore a "motor caravan" over 3500Kg MAM is classed as a Private Heavy Goods Vehicle..."

Can you please explain why it is a 'Goods Vehicle' at all? Was it because DVLA could not find a category and made an executive decision, which may not be based on legislation?

I am not concerned with taxation rates. I am concerned, because other agencies rely on DVLA classification, on the basis DVLA are the statutory body for classification.

Can you shed light on the legal basis for other agencies entitlement to rely on the DVLA info please?

Also, since Mr.Plodd used the term MAM and other agencies use GVW, can anyone explain the legislative difference between the two? 

Geoff (aka 'Dog with a bone')


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Cronkie

Thanks for your last post

I started to read into it too and will get back to it tomorrow, but on the face of it, the Secretary of State may make regulations for the provision of data (at a price)

BUT has the S. of S. done that? And what entitles another agency to rely on it, even if provide by DVLA, rather than collect their own information?

I will pursue. Probably by FOI requests to the agency - let them do the work!

Geoff


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> Also, since Mr.Plodd used the term MAM and other agencies use GVW, can anyone explain the legislative difference between the two?
> 
> Geoff (aka 'Dog with a bone')


In the context you are talking about they are the same thing;
'Maximum authorised mass'

The term maximum authorised mass (MAM), used in the context of driving licences, is the maximum weight of a vehicle or trailer including the maximum load that can be carried safely while used on the road. This is also known as gross vehicle weight (GVW) or permissible maximum weight. It will be listed in the owner's manual and is normally shown on a plate or sticker fitted to the vehicle. The plate or sticker may also show a gross train weight (GTW).

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022708

Obviously besides driving licences the same interpretation is used where it effects Vehicle Excise Duty groups.

Vehicle classifications are detailed in Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994. DVLA are the Licencing authority and they apply the rules in line with the act and as interpreted by the DTF.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Edit 

Having re read Rays post my reply was not correct but for some reason I am unable to delete it, so I have deitted the text out.

Doh


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

In the UK we always used the term Gross Vehicle Weight in the past. When we agreed to combine our rules to those used in the EU the term Maximum Authorised Mass was agreed on !

They mean exactly the same and MAM has been the "standard" across the EU for many years now


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

Mrplodd said:


> Sorry to disagree with you Ray BUT
> 
> MAM (GVW) and Train weight are NOT the same.
> 
> ...


Ray has quoted directly from the link that he posted. He makes the point that it is in relation to driving licences.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Cronkle

I agree 100% and realise that I had not properly read Rays post before adding my post
  

I have since tried to delete my post but for some reason I am unable to do so. Therefore I have edited the text out (see above confession )            

Doesnt sackcloth and ashes itch ???????


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Mrplodd said:


> Cronkle
> 
> I agree 100% and realise that I had not properly read Rays post before adding my post
> 
> ...


No problems. It may have been better if I had not pasted the whole paragraph and stopped before "The plate or sticker may also show a gross train weight (GTW)" which had no relevance to the question.

By the way it wasn't you responsible for the gas leak on Canford Bottom roundabout was it? Is your office responsible for ensuring the CAT scan is carried out before digging commenced. 

I tried to post this but I got the auto response from Nuke that I couldn't as it has too many smilies in it - only 15 allowed apparently so have deleted a few of Mr Plodds quote


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

Another thing that is different apparently. After a couple of month's SORN I went down to the postoffice in the village, not being able to tax it online.

Opps Dot said I can't do this (6000kg PHGV) you'll have to send it off. I put my winning smile on and she relented "if all they have got to do is chase me down good luck to them" and stamped my disc! "But I shouldn't" she said with a giggle :wink: 

Dick


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## harveystc (Sep 20, 2008)

*vehicle classification*

Hi, I had a problem with the same info,mine is over 3.500,but after going to my local dvla and showing them a picture of the motorhome they told me to send the picture with a letter to swansea,my logbook i.e v55 now reads motorhome private hgv it is the motorhome bit thats important to dvla,and tax at any post office,hope this helps.regards H :roll:


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## harveystc (Sep 20, 2008)

*vehicle classification*

Hi, I had a problem with the same info,mine is over 3.500,but after going to my local dvla and showing them a picture of the motorhome they told me to send the picture with a letter to swansea,my logbook i.e v55 now reads motorhome private hgv it is the motorhome bit thats important to dvla,and tax at any post office,hope this helps.regards H :roll:


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Didnt have any sort of problem with taxing mine (4000kg) at the Poast office after a period of SORN !!


Ray 

NO it was nuffink to do wiv me guv !!!! honest :lol:


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Mrplodd said:


> In the UK we always used the term Gross Vehicle Weight in the past. When we agreed to combine our rules to those used in the EU the term Maximum Authorised Mass was agreed on !
> 
> They mean exactly the same and MAM has been the "standard" across the EU for many years now


Tfl are still using GVW in relation to the LEZ legislation.

When did the agreement to use MAM come into effect?

I wonder whether GVW still has legal effect? or could it make Tfl legislation invalid as being uncertain in law? Unless there was some provision in the legislation for GVW to still be valid.

Geoff


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> Mrplodd said:
> 
> 
> > In the UK we always used the term Gross Vehicle Weight in the past. When we agreed to combine our rules to those used in the EU the term Maximum Authorised Mass was agreed on !
> ...


I would think that any reasonable Judge or Magistrate would rule that GVW and MAM, or indeed MGW, are interchangeable terms for the same thing. The terms are used widely within the transport industry and it is accepted that they do.
If you were considering, for example, to challenge Tfl on the LEZ because they state the regulations in GVW then good luck to you but I will be very surprised if you get very far.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

rayc said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> > Mrplodd said:
> ...


Ray

You may well be right re Tfl - it would be a long shot.

But I have just won against their refusal to accept a filter for my UK-reg MH fitted in Germany. Unfortunately for others they tied their decision my particular circumstances so it may not be any help to others.

I am still interested in whether DVLA are correct in classifying MHs as PHGV.

Geoff


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > nicholsong said:
> ...


DVLA are not classifying Motor Caravans over 3500kg MAM as PHGV. It is classified as a Motor Caravan but for vehicle duty purposes put in Taxation Class (TC10) PHGV. If other authorities are using the Taxation Class for their regulatory policies then that is not a DVLA responsibility.


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## Jean-Luc (Jul 21, 2005)

We seem to be well sorted compared to you guys in this classification/categorisation issue in our equivalent of your DVLA.
See HERE scroll down to 'MISCELLANEOUS VEHICLES', very sensibly 'motor caravans' have their own tax classification and the same tax rate as other low use vehicles. This was achieved some years ago following lobbying of the government by one of the bigger clubs here.

What has the might of the CC and C&CC achieved in getting recognition of the overall low impact of motor caravans on road use/polution translated into appropriate regulations/legislation/tax rates, sod all.

Also here our VF101, our equivalent of your V5C, is bang in line with EU vehicle categorisation and makes no reference 'goods' anywhere, all references related to 'passenger' vehicle.

The major clubs and the manufacturing industry do really need to get behind the interest of their members/customers and lobby effectively to have motor caravans recognised as low use hobby vehicles in legislative matters.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Ray

This is not to contradict you, just to state what my V5C says:-

On my V5C 'Motor Caravan' appears under para D3 Body Type

Para J, Vehicle Category is blank.

(Interestingly para F.1 is labelled 'Max. permissible mass (exc. m/c)' - neither GVW nor MAM and what is 'm/c'? not motorcycle surely?) That is also blank.

You say that DVLA are just classifying it as PHGV, but that is for 'Goods' vehicles. If it is not a 'Goods' vehicle why are they taxing it as such, when their notes say that any vehicle registered after 1.3.2001 and not in the six categories below is a P/LGV?

If a vehicle is P/LGV no weight shows on the records.

This would be advantageous for a couple of reasons.

Sorry to be a dog-with-a-bone, but I am not being pedantic for the sake of it -this is quite important to me and I still do not have some answers to my original Qs.

Geoff


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Jean-Luc said:


> We seem to be well sorted compared to you guys in this classification/categorisation issue in our equivalent of your DVLA.
> See HERE scroll down to 'MISCELLANEOUS VEHICLES', very sensibly 'motor caravans' have their own tax classification and the same tax rate as other low use vehicles. This was achieved some years ago following lobbying of the government by one of the bigger clubs here.
> 
> What has the might of the CC and C&CC achieved in getting recognition of the overall low impact of motor caravans on road use/polution translated into appropriate regulations/legislation/tax rates, sod all.
> ...


Jean-Luc

In UK MH under 3500kg is taxed as a P/LGV and those over 3500kg as a PHGV. The former is taxed higher than the latter, so going into the former category is more expensive for some.

However the reason for my Qs is not related to rate of tax.

Geoff


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

nicholsong said:


> Jean-Luc said:
> 
> 
> > We seem to be well sorted compared to you guys in this classification/categorisation issue in our equivalent of your DVLA.
> ...


It could be that the best way is to ask the DVLA which regulations and/or ministerial orders are the basis for the categories. It does look like the link I posted yesterday could be the enabling Act. (Still got the head-ache from going through that one)


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Cronkie

You are probably right, but I thought I might tap into MHF knowledge first.

I usually find that a 

'polite request to avoid having to invoke the FOI Act'

produces some results. 

Geoff


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