# Sorning a van while overwintering in Spain



## thesnail

I noticed a van without a current tax disc here in Spain.

when I pointed this out to the owner I was told "its ok we Sorned on the internet today the van before we came.

I asked about driving it back to the UK and the owner seemed to think it would be ok !!!!.

I feel this raises a few questions.

I think that for a vehicle to be legal in an EU country it must be fully legal in its country of registration. 

For insurance purposes It must be taxed and display a current road fund certificate,

I have also seen some where that Spanish police have been stopping vehicles with uk plates before they cross the border if they have been guilty of traffic infringements especially speeding.

So over to the brains trust, am I right or as been proven many times before wrong.

While I Have this opportunity can we wish all our friends a very Happy CHRIST MASS and a peaceful new year.

Bryan and Rosemary


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## Philippft

yes! you are dead on.


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## Stanner

From Form V14 - Refund/SORN Application

"You cannot make a SORN if the vehicle is taken abroad temporarily."

http://www.ftreg.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/v14.pdf


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## sideways

If you get caught on camera or by plodd driving while on sorn they will take a dim view of it as you have made a false declaration ie lied, they can fine you an astronomical amount i think its £10K.
In many cases people say incorrectly you will invalidate your insurance, in this case you may well do as its deception,not just "i forgot" or i wasnt in UK but a deliberate act.


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## listerdiesel

Cannot see the point in not keeping it fully legal, as has been said, the countries you are driving through require that your vehicle is correctly licenced in your own country of residence, and if you get a pull in France, they won't be happy if they find out that you are not fully legit.

Peter


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## autostratus

What a ridiculous situation to put oneself in for the sake of a few pounds.
No one can be that hard up that they could do that and then spend a considerable amount of money going off to Spain for the winter.

In effect he's uninsured and the consequences of that to himself and any other road user involved are hard to imagine.


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## DTPCHEMICALS

The mans a fool. I would not like him to crash into me.
A line to DVLA may bring him to his senses. :wink: 
Dave p


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## H1-GBV

Stanner said:


> From Form V14 - Refund/SORN Application
> 
> "You cannot make a SORN if the vehicle is taken abroad temporarily."
> 
> http://www.ftreg.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/v14.pdf


When I read the original post, I thought this sounded like a "cunning plan": drive to some sunny campsite (possibly towing a second vehicle), sign up for a 3 month stay, SORN over the internet. Re-tax before leaving the site to come home. The vehicle is not being driven, so surely it is legal?.

I haven't followed Stanner's link, so this may be addressed there.

Rushing off to make the most of a dry sunny day - Gordon.


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## erneboy

autostratus said:


> What a ridiculous situation to put oneself in for the sake of a few pounds.
> No one can be that hard up that they could do that and then spend a considerable amount of money going off to Spain for the winter.
> 
> In effect he's uninsured and the consequences of that to himself and any other road user involved are hard to imagine.


He won't be uninsured unless it's a condition of his insurance that he be taxed, some policies do require that these day it seems.

Equally many policies only say a vehicle must be in roadworthy condition, not that it must have a current MOT.

What he is doing is silly though, Alan.


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## damar1

We were near Granada a couple of years ago, and a big man dressed in green and had a gun, ( police ) asked we where my tax disk was, luckily it had fell of due the heat of the sun. So no problem and he left on good terms. I think that guy is so stupid when you are abroad you have to have things right or it could cost you a lot of money


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## raynipper

Ere we go again. This ole chesnut keeps recurring every now and again.
Then comes all the guesswork and suppositions of what people and the DVLC (who change day by day) giving their interpretations.

RFL is a UK tax and nothing to do with legality in another country. You will be saying we need a TV license to watch Spanish TV next.... :roll: 

Ray.


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## listerdiesel

raynipper said:


> Ere we go again. This ole chesnut keeps recurring every now and again.
> Then comes all the guesswork and suppositions of what people and the DVLC (who change day by day) giving their interpretations.
> 
> RFL is a UK tax and nothing to do with legality in another country. You will be saying we need a TV license to watch Spanish TV next.... :roll:
> 
> Ray.


Ray:

I will stand to be corrected, but you cannot use a vehicle in any EU country unless it is legal on the roads of the country of origin.

Otherwise nobody need bother with tax etc.

Peter


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## erneboy

Let's assume for a moment that you are correct Peter. If a Policeman in another country found an untaxed British vehicle what charges could he bring? He can't enforce UK law as it does not apply in his country. That doesn't mean they won't look for tax but I do believe it means they have no power to do anything about an untaxed vehicle.

I know we haven't heard a definitive answer on this but I tend to take the same view as Ray, Alan.


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## rayc

If a EU registered vehicle is used in the UK what requirements that are compulsory in the country of registration are checked by the UK Police on a stop?

Insurance would be top of the list as there is no doubt about that as it is a requirement by law that the minimum cover is provided for throughout the EU.

Tax, do the UK Police know the regimes in place in all EU countries and how proof of having it is demonstrated?

MOT, Same as above? Incidentally why is it in these days of calls for standardisation throughout The EU that the UK MOT regime is different from the rest of Europe. Why is it that the same vehicle registered in the UK is tested under a 3/1/1 yearly regime but Spain, France, Germany and others use 4/2/2. Does that mean that their vehicles are likely to be in less state of road worthiness than ours?


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## Penquin

OK let's add another little fuel to the fire......

Our MH is in France and for the past 6 months we have been trying to re-register it in France, it has French insurance on a UK plate, it has a _controle technique_ on a UK plate (=MoT), the paperwork went to the Prefecture in Bergerac in June for them to issue the _carte grise_ and registration number..... (=V5). They have the orginal V5, the original _controle technique_, the import certificate and every piece of paper they need....

With me so far? 

*They cannot find the eurotype number *on the computer - Swift have been *VERY* helpful and have gone to the French registration Head Office in Paris and ensured it is in the system (now...... after a little hiccup or three), the Head Office has given us (and Swift) a copy of the entry in the French system but still Bergerac cannot find it...... we even have a copy of the CNIT notice which should allow any French bureaucrat to locate it - except those in Bergerac :roll: 

Our VED runs out at the end of January......

Our UK MoT ran out in September 2012, we do not have UK based insurance......

We cannot SORN it as such a thing is not allowed for vehicles overseas as was correctly linked earlier........

*
So what should we do?*

The Paris Head Office has now asked us to ring another Head Office (France has lots of them) called ANTS (don't ask what it stands for.... but just in case you did; (Agence Nationale des Titres Sécurisés), so what should we do with DVLA?

Tell them we have permanently exported it but cannot send in the V5 as it is with the French authorities?

Tell them we want to SORN it ? (Illegal and has a hefty fine)

Do nothing ? (Automatic £200 fine)

Run around in circles, scream and shout (my favoured option :lol: )

Wait for Paris to sort their act out and do what ............?

Tell DVLA it is in the hands of the guillotine mob and if they don't like it they can put their neck on the block, 'cos I a'int volunteering for an even shorter haircut.......

Oh, by the way, under French Law it is illegal for a French resident to drive a vehicle registered outside France for more than 6 months in France (which we have now exceeded by one month at least  )

All suggestions, serious and otherwise will be genuinely welcomed to lighten a feeling of Frankie Howard "Woe, woe and thrice times woe!"

Dave


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## erneboy

I am sorry to hear that your saga still isn't resolved Dave. I have no advice to offer but I do think it's high time these things were standardised so that we can easily be legal wherever we want to be, Alan.


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## tony_g

Whether you are 'legal' or not in another EU country, the matter is more likely to hinge on your own motor insurance. I know for certain that insurance is invalidated for on the road cover if a UK registered vehicle does not have a valid MOT certificate, even if not in the UK. I wouldn't like to bet that my insurer would take a benign view over lack of road fund licence, either. I would rather be completely road legal at all times than make an insignificant saving.


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## erneboy

tony_g said:


> Whether you are 'legal' or not in another EU country, the matter is more likely to hinge on your own motor insurance. I know for certain that insurance is invalidated for on the road cover if a UK registered vehicle does not have a valid MOT certificate, ..............................


What you know for certain is wrong I am afraid. YOUR insurance may contain a condition which requires that YOUR vehicle has a valid MOT and if it does then YOUR vehicle would be uninsured without it. You can know that for certain.

My insurance says that my van must be in a roadworthy condition, it does not mention MOT. Policies may be worded either way, Alan.


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## 1302

Tax disc required. Next question.


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## erneboy

1302 said:


> Tax disc required. Next question.


In order to travel in Europe or in order to be insured?

Sorry, hit thank instead of quote but it won't hurt your total to have another, Alan.


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## rayc

tony_g said:


> Whether you are 'legal' or not in another EU country, the matter is more likely to hinge on your own motor insurance. I know for certain that insurance is invalidated for on the road cover if a UK registered vehicle does not have a valid MOT certificate, even if not in the UK. I wouldn't like to bet that my insurer would take a benign view over lack of road fund licence, either. I would rather be completely road legal at all times than make an insignificant saving.


It is certainly not a condition of my insurance policy that it must have a current MOT certificate to be valid. It does though make it a requirement for 'full timing' but that is a different matter.

It is perfectly legal for you to drive a vehicle to and from a booked MOT test and to a place of repair and back to the MOT station for retest and so on. If the insurance were to be cancelled at the failure of the MOT then you would never have cover to take it for repair / retest etc.
My policy also does not make any mention of it having to be taxed for the it to be valid.

Much better to be road legal at all times but we cannot make our own decisions on what is legal.


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## erneboy

Legally it is quite clear that Insurance cannot require anything which isn't a condition of that insurance, otherwise any condition could be tacked on to any policy at the whim of the insurer.

"We have decided to invalidate your cover you because you have a big nose/pimple on your behind" etc., Alan.


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## cabby

I might as well throw my bit in, :roll: the RFL is a tax, if you do not have one you can be fined and taken to court, but it is a civil matter not a criminal charge,but it is a criminal charge for not displaying the rfl.Used to be a law saying lower left corner, not sure if it still is.

cabby


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## rayc

erneboy said:


> Legally it is quite clear that Insurance cannot require anything which isn't a condition of that insurance, otherwise any condition could be tacked on to any policy at the whim of the insurer.
> 
> "We have decided to invalidate your cover you because you have a big nose/pimple on your behind" etc., Alan.


The problem to me with internet claims of things such as this is when the source is not quoted.

If I quote speed limits I source it to Section 86 (1) and Schedule 6 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.
People are then free to look at this source and agree / disagree or comment as they wish.

A typical discussion is what trailers you can tow with a B group only licence? You will get responses such as none or up to 750kg etc.
The legality is in the regulations not what people believe.


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## rayc

cabby said:


> I might as well throw my bit in, :roll: the RFL is a tax, if you do not have one you can be fined and taken to court, but it is a civil matter not a criminal charge,but it is a criminal charge for not displaying the rfl.Used to be a law saying lower left corner, not sure if it still is.
> 
> cabby


The devil is in the regulations:

Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/contents


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## javea

Your friend will be taking a risk if he proceeds with this idea.

Leaving aside the legalities he stands a good chance of being the recipient of a substantial fine from the Guardia Civil.

A lot of the expat community cottoned on to the fact that Spanish registered cars do not display tax discs so they ran their cars without local tax being paid. Eventually this was noticed by the Spanish authorities who started to crack down on the practice.

A few years ago a road block was set up by the Guardia Civil in Benitachell, a town near Javea having a substantial British ex-pat community. Accompanying the police were representatives from the DVLA bearing laptops which contained the date when the tax disc of the vehicle being inspected had expired. 

The fine levied on the law breaker was in direct relation to the period during which the vehicle had not been taxed in the UK and Spain. The figure went from the hundreds to the thousands and I know that one chap had his vehicle impounded and subsequently crushed.

Your friend's situation is not as serious as that because he is not a resident but if he is stopped by the Guardia when they see that there is no current tax disc on display he will certainly be subject to a fine.

Mike


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## erneboy

Not doubting your word Mike, but under which law was it possible firstly for DVLA people to have authority in Spain and secondly for Spanish Policia to enforce a British law on road tax? Alan.


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## javea

Don't know the answer to that one Alan, but it certainly happened.

Perhaps some sort of 'deal' between Guardia and DVLA - Spanish authorities have proof when the vehicle was last taxed in the UK which enables them to impose the fine in relation to the period of non-taxation, and DVLA receive a percentage?

The fine was for the period of non-taxation in Spain, not the UK

Mike

Edited to add final paragraph


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## nicholsong

Stanner said:


> From Form V14 - Refund/SORN Application
> 
> "You cannot make a SORN if the vehicle is taken abroad temporarily."
> 
> http://www.ftreg.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/v14.pdf


Stanner

I am currently in contact with the DVLA and Dft to establish whether the actual law says that SORN can only be done in UK. This is because my vehicle is off the road outside the UK. If I can SORN it I can delay my next trip to the UK for an MOT, or until Poland passes the promised legislation, to conform with EU rules, to permit RHD vehicles to be registered here.

I agree that the notes to the V14 say that it cannot be 'taken abroad temporarily', but I wonder whether the notes, which are not law, are contemplating that the vehicle would be driven abroad while on SORN, in which case it would not be legal in the country of registration because it is on the highway.

However if the vehicle is already off the road outside the UK maybe the law permits it to be SORNed.

If anyone can point me to the exact law on SORN, while I am waiting for a response from Dft lawyers (DVLA say they have no legal department), I would be most grateful.

I understand that when unSORNing it is permissible to drive to an MOT station. If so the vehicle would be legal in the UK while returning from Poland to the UK for the MOT as the purpose of the journey would be to obtain the MOT in order to re-tax the vehicle.

AND A HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OUR READERS.

Geoff


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## bigles

We are travelling in Europe for a year and I checked with our insurers (in the UK) before departing, and they said that the vehicle should be roadworthy and have a valid MoT certificate. When I asked about road tax they said it was not required as far as they were concerned. I asked them to confirm in writing which they did and I have the letter with me.

Ask the DVLA and they will tell you the vehicle must be taxed whilst abroad, but they would wouldn't they as they are there to collect tax!

As has been previously said, are any other European countries likely to prosecute for not displaying a UK tax disc? I would be interested to hear if anyone has been.


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## erneboy

That's interesting Mike. I can see that Guardia Civil could take an interest in a vehicle which should be registered in Spain by dint of having overstayed the temporary permission to import. And how that would be avoiding Spanish taxes by running on UK plates and therefore something they could do something about.

I don't know whether you have looked for information on the internet. I have just spent some time (for the second time) looking to see if I can find reports of DVLA staff having been here working and I can't turn anything up. I would have expected it to be quite a big story both for the Spanish and for the ex-pat community. 

All I could turn up was an old post on here, Alan.


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## raynipper

1302 said:


> Tax disc required. Next question.


Not when you leave UK public roads.!!!

When this was aired before someone contacted DVLC and was told it was a legality. They were wrong. Someone else contacted DVLC and got an opposite answer. They make it up as they go along.

Has ANYONE been fined or even wrapped over the knuckles for no tax disc in any other European country?

Ray.


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## raynipper

cabby said:


> I might as well throw my bit in, :roll: the RFL is a tax, if you do not have one you can be fined and taken to court, but it is a civil matter not a criminal charge,but it is a criminal charge for not displaying the rfl.Used to be a law saying lower left corner, not sure if it still is.
> 
> cabby


So who will go to the trouble of fining you in Europe Cabby.??

Ray.


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## erneboy

A telling off won't cover it Ray.

I can understand that a foreign cop may know about road tax and may tell someone off for not having it. The real question is whether they can do anything about it.

So can I ask if anyone on here has ever been fined or prosecuted for not having a valid UK tax disc by a foreign cop?

And has anyone on here been fined or prosecuted by a foreign cop for not having MOT?

In the absence of an affirmative answer to either or both of those questions I will continue to believe that while it's wise to have both it is not a legal requirement in other countries UNLESS not having one or other OR both invalidates YOUR insurance, in which case you would be driving uninsured which certainly is illegal in most countries, Alan.


Edit: It's common for people to maintain the a vehicle must be legal in its home country to be driven elsewhere in Europe. Can anyone post a link to any European legislation which says so please? 

Please don't bother posting what UK law says or how some agency wants to interpret UK law because the former has no effect outside the UK and the latter is only opinion.


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## Bill_H

and if the van is kept on a Spanish site for the duration of the SORN and not on a public highway British of European? And either retaxed before the journey home or has an MOT booked?
Is that still illegal?


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## Annsman

An interesting legal argument no doubt. But has anyone got the "bottle", inclination or spare cash, to go through the Spanish, or other EU countrys' legal system just to make a maximum saving of £185.00 UK road tax?

Just pay up where ever you live and then there is no argument, (French beauracrats allowing!)


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## javea

erneboy said:


> That's interesting Mike. I can see that Guardia Civil could take an interest in a vehicle which should be registered in Spain by dint of having overstayed the temporary permission to import. And how that would be avoiding Spanish taxes by running on UK plates and therefore something they could do something about.
> 
> I don't know whether you have looked for information on the internet. I have just spent some time (for the second time) looking to see if I can find reports of DVLA staff having been here working and I can't turn anything up. I would have expected it to be quite a big story both for the Spanish and for the ex-pat community.
> 
> All I could turn up was an old post on here, Alan.


I am struggling to remember exactly when it was Alan. I have had a Panda from new for two years and prior to that I had imported my LHD Smart to keep in Spain. Must admit I hadn't got round to re-registering in Spain at the time this blew up so I quickly arranged for a Gestor to do it for me! That must have been about three years before the Panda so probably 5-6 years ago, certainly made the Costa Blanca News at the time but it could just have been a local event.

Mike


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## 1302

In Portugal for example, the police will confiscate a UK registered car with no UK tax disc on the basis that it could be a 'grey' import. The presence of a tax disc proves that the car will be returning to the UK. Oviously a static vehicle on a site that isnt going on the road wouldnt require a tax disc.

As mentioned earlier - is it worth saving about £12 a month for that level of risk? No.


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## Stanner

nicholsong said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> From Form V14 - Refund/SORN Application
> 
> "You cannot make a SORN if the vehicle is taken abroad temporarily."
> 
> http://www.ftreg.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/v14.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner
> 
> I am currently in contact with the DVLA and Dft to establish whether the actual law says that SORN can only be done in UK. This is because my vehicle is off the road outside the UK. If I can SORN it I can delay my next trip to the UK for an MOT, or until Poland passes the promised legislation, to conform with EU rules, to permit RHD vehicles to be registered here.
> 
> I agree that the notes to the V14 say that it cannot be 'taken abroad temporarily', but I wonder whether the notes, which are not law, are contemplating that the vehicle would be driven abroad while on SORN, in which case it would not be legal in the country of registration because it is on the highway.
> 
> However if the vehicle is already off the road outside the UK maybe the law permits it to be SORNed.
> 
> If anyone can point me to the exact law on SORN, while I am waiting for a response from Dft lawyers (DVLA say they have no legal department), I would be most grateful.
> 
> I understand that when unSORNing it is permissible to drive to an MOT station. If so the vehicle would be legal in the UK while returning from Poland to the UK for the MOT as the purpose of the journey would be to obtain the MOT in order to re-tax the vehicle.
> 
> AND A HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OUR READERS.
> 
> Geoff
Click to expand...

I have no view either way and was simply quoting what the V14 says.

But I do know that Vosa or whosoever enforce such matters have become far more proactive lately. 
On Friday I saw a MB Vito van fitted with four ANPR cameras on the roof driving slowly along a local road used for commuter parking and it stopped and backed up at least three times in a checking a line of 50 or so cars.

I can quite believe that VOSA/DVLA would, if requested, cooperate with authorities abroad. As said I doubt if VOSA/DVLA could take any action against non-conforming vehicles abroad, but I am sure they would willingly provide information to any foreign authority that thought it could.


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## raynipper

Annsman said:


> An interesting legal argument no doubt. But has anyone got the "bottle", inclination or spare cash, to go through the Spanish, or other EU countrys' legal system just to make a maximum saving of £185.00 UK road tax?
> 
> Just pay up where ever you live and then there is no argument, (French beauracrats allowing!)


We have used UK reg cars and motorhomes in France WITHOUT 'rfl' since 1994. In fact I have always posted off the disc for a refund at the port.
It's OK to say £185 is nothing as is only £50 for the iPhone, £50 Sky, £150 medical insurance, etc. etc.

When your on £85 a week pension try it.!!!!

Ray.


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## raynipper

Stanner said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> From Form V14 - Refund/SORN Application
> 
> "You cannot make a SORN if the vehicle is taken abroad temporarily."
> 
> http://www.ftreg.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/v14.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner
> 
> I am currently in contact with the DVLA and Dft to establish whether the actual law says that SORN can only be done in UK. This is because my vehicle is off the road outside the UK. If I can SORN it I can delay my next trip to the UK for an MOT, or until Poland passes the promised legislation, to conform with EU rules, to permit RHD vehicles to be registered here.
> 
> I agree that the notes to the V14 say that it cannot be 'taken abroad temporarily', but I wonder whether the notes, which are not law, are contemplating that the vehicle would be driven abroad while on SORN, in which case it would not be legal in the country of registration because it is on the highway.
> 
> However if the vehicle is already off the road outside the UK maybe the law permits it to be SORNed.
> 
> If anyone can point me to the exact law on SORN, while I am waiting for a response from Dft lawyers (DVLA say they have no legal department), I would be most grateful.
> 
> I understand that when unSORNing it is permissible to drive to an MOT station. If so the vehicle would be legal in the UK while returning from Poland to the UK for the MOT as the purpose of the journey would be to obtain the MOT in order to re-tax the vehicle.
> 
> AND A HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OUR READERS.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have no view either way and was simply quoting what the V14 says.
> 
> But I do know that Vosa or whosoever enforce such matters have become far more proactive lately.
> On Friday I saw a MB Vito van fitted with four ANPR cameras on the roof driving slowly along a local road used for commuter parking and it stopped and backed up at least three times in a checking a line of 50 or so cars.
> 
> I can quite believe that VOSA/DVLA would, if requested, cooperate with authorities abroad. As said I doubt if VOSA/DVLA could take any action against non-conforming vehicles abroad, but I am sure they would willingly provide information to any foreign authority that thought it could.
Click to expand...

But why would any other country be the slightest concerned about some one in a UK reged vehicle avoiding any for of tax.???

Ray.


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## Stanner

raynipper said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> From Form V14 - Refund/SORN Application
> 
> "You cannot make a SORN if the vehicle is taken abroad temporarily."
> 
> http://www.ftreg.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/v14.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner
> 
> I am currently in contact with the DVLA and Dft to establish whether the actual law says that SORN can only be done in UK. This is because my vehicle is off the road outside the UK. If I can SORN it I can delay my next trip to the UK for an MOT, or until Poland passes the promised legislation, to conform with EU rules, to permit RHD vehicles to be registered here.
> 
> I agree that the notes to the V14 say that it cannot be 'taken abroad temporarily', but I wonder whether the notes, which are not law, are contemplating that the vehicle would be driven abroad while on SORN, in which case it would not be legal in the country of registration because it is on the highway.
> 
> However if the vehicle is already off the road outside the UK maybe the law permits it to be SORNed.
> 
> If anyone can point me to the exact law on SORN, while I am waiting for a response from Dft lawyers (DVLA say they have no legal department), I would be most grateful.
> 
> I understand that when unSORNing it is permissible to drive to an MOT station. If so the vehicle would be legal in the UK while returning from Poland to the UK for the MOT as the purpose of the journey would be to obtain the MOT in order to re-tax the vehicle.
> 
> AND A HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OUR READERS.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have no view either way and was simply quoting what the V14 says.
> 
> But I do know that Vosa or whosoever enforce such matters have become far more proactive lately.
> On Friday I saw a MB Vito van fitted with four ANPR cameras on the roof driving slowly along a local road used for commuter parking and it stopped and backed up at least three times in a checking a line of 50 or so cars.
> 
> I can quite believe that VOSA/DVLA would, if requested, cooperate with authorities abroad. As said I doubt if VOSA/DVLA could take any action against non-conforming vehicles abroad, but I am sure they would willingly provide information to any foreign authority that thought it could.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But why would any other country be the slightest concerned about some one in a UK reged vehicle avoiding any for of tax.???
> 
> Ray.
Click to expand...

I have no idea as I don't know what their laws are but as with Police almost anywhere I bet they can find something suitable if they want to.


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## grizzlyj

snipped


nicholsong said:


> I understand that when unSORNing it is permissible to drive to an MOT station. If so the vehicle would be legal in the UK while returning from Poland to the UK for the MOT as the purpose of the journey would be to obtain the MOT in order to re-tax the vehicle.
> 
> AND A HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OUR READERS.
> 
> Geoff


Hiya

Dougie (asprn) has posted here in the past that you can only drive to a pre-booked MOT on that day. So coming from Poland is perhaps a little too far? 

With regard to Spain and UK authorities colluding, if you theoretically have six months having left the UK before re-registering in e.g. Spain, then either you fall foul of Spain in not now being on Spanish plates, or the DVLA for not paying road tax. Your choice 

Of course that assumes you leave the UK for one particular country to stay. Five months in Spain then a day in France and the Spanish clock would have to start ticking again even if the UK MOT requirement remains.


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## Penquin

From my memory of asprn's post as long as you have a PREBOOKED MoT at an MoT testing station anywhere in the UK you can drive there legally. I think Dougie suggested that if you prebook an MoT in John'o Groats you could legally drive there from Plymouth providing the route was reasonable....

i.e. if you drove a fairly straight line up that would be OK, but if you planned to talke 2 weeks and wander all around the UK meanwhile that would probably fall foul of the law.....

I am working from memory.......

The one day in Spain then another just under 6 months in France might seem OK but can you prove it if challenged as there are no border crossing stamps etc......

If the police are in a grotty mood or think you have failed the "attitude test" whether it is English, French, Spanish Police or anywhere else they will undoubtedly find something to do you for......

Dave


----------



## grizzlyj

Same day only 

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-1244344-mot.html#1244344

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-1055291-mot.html#1055291

Almost exactly a year apart too.


----------



## erneboy

Dougie speaks almost exclusively about driving in the UK in these posts. In other words what the position is when you get off a ferry driving a vehicle which has no valid MOT.

In the second of the two threads Jason has posted links to Theawin deals with driving abroad without MOT and Tax. He states that there are no laws in other countries requiring either and that therefore you cannot be prosecuted if you don't have them. I share his view, Alan.


----------



## grizzlyj

erneboy said:


> Dougie speaks almost exclusively about driving in the UK in these posts. In other words what the position is when you get off a ferry driving a vehicle which has no valid MOT.
> 
> In the second of the two threads Jason has posted links to Theawin deals with driving abroad without MOT and Tax. He states that there are no laws in other countries requiring either and that therefore you cannot be prosecuted if you don't have them. I share his view, Alan.


That is a way of thinking about it I hadn't considered 8)

One day I'll drive out of the UK for long enough for it to be a problem and see what happens!


----------



## erneboy

To quote Frances Urquhart, "You might very well say that. I couldn't possibly comment".

I sent you a PM Jason, Alan.


----------



## 113016

Without reading the whole thread, I understand that any vehicle should be road legal in it's Country of origin to still be legal as a visiting vehicle abroad.
In other words, Road fund taxation, MOT and suitable insurance would still be required. :!:


----------



## erneboy

Can you point us at a law which supports your view please Graham, Alan.


----------



## 113016

erneboy said:


> Can you point us at a law which supports your view please Graham, Alan.


Hi Alan, I thought my view as posted were the well known rules. I have read it many times in the past.
I couldn't be bothered at the moment to do the goggle, as I am just about to do a few things. 
Are you saying I am wrong?

I am sure somebody will find the time!


----------



## erneboy

I am saying that despite repeated requests no one has ever been able to turn up any law requiring this.

When I say law I mean exactly that, not some opinion from an ex-pat site, or a forum, or the interpretations of the law as posted on various UK Government sites.

The law which specifically requires this and makes it enforceable Europe wide and the passage where it's required will convince me that it's true, and apparently that is not the Construction and Use regulations because they make no mention of tax or Mot according to Theawin.

Cheers, Alan.


----------



## raynipper

I am with Alan on this. At least about the rfl or tax issue.

I really cannot imagine that any foreign authority is the slightest concerned about any revenue issue in another country.
Your UK insurance Co. is the only requirement to comply. But rfl or tax again is not an insurance requirement as far as we know.

Would any UK plod be the slightest bit interested in weather you had paid any revenue in another country? Motoring or otherwise.

Ray.


----------



## erneboy

Can't quite agree on what you say about Insurance Ray.

I was of the same opinion but several people on here have posted extracts from their policies and it seems some do require MoT while some even apparently require tax. Odd as you can't actually obtain tax unless you are first insured. Chicken and egg.

Mine does not require either, Alan.


----------



## 113016

I'm back  plans changed :wink: Mrs G didn't tell me we had to wait for our Daughter, I am always the last to know  
Anyway back to subject.
There is a Transport Manager Bible and it is allegedly as near to 100% accurate as anything can be  
It is called Croners. If anybody has access to either a soft or hard copy, I would be pretty sure that the correct information would be in there.
On a similar tack, when I was trucking, quite a few tractor units that did not tow trailers within the UK, did not have the full HGV road tax which was very expensive, but did have PHGV road tax.
I never did know if it was legal


----------



## eddied

erneboy said:


> I am sorry to hear that your saga still isn't resolved Dave. I have no advice to offer but I do think it's high time these things were standardised so that we can easily be legal wherever we want to be, Alan.


Dead simple. Be fully road legal in your country of origin, and you are fully road legal throughout the EU.
Buon Natale,
eddied


----------



## rayc

erneboy said:


> I am saying that despite repeated requests no one has ever been able to turn up any law requiring this.
> 
> When I say law I mean exactly that, not some opinion from an ex-pat site, or a forum, or the interpretations of the law as posted on various UK Government sites.
> 
> The law which specifically requires this and makes it enforceable Europe wide and the passage where it's required will convince me that it's true, and apparently that is not the Construction and Use regulations because they make no mention of tax or Mot according to Theawin.
> 
> Cheers, Alan.


How about Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 c. 22 Part I Main provisions Section 1;
"duty of excise ("vehicle excise duty") shall be charged in respect of every mechanically propelled vehicle that-
(a)is registered under this Act (see section 21),

Is it a Exempt Vehicle as per Schedule 2?

There is no doubt that the intention of the legislation is that any UK registered vehicle must comply with the VED regime. I doubt though that there are recipricol arrangements in place with other EU states to ensure compliance throughout the EU.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/contents


----------



## raynipper

Yes, you have just reminded me Graham.
Many hauliers changed their company base to 'The Continent' either France or Belgium some years ago to save the punitive rfl and fuel costs. 
Not sure if this is still happening.

Ray.


----------



## 113016

This DVLA document says it must be taxed.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ds-cse&usg=AFQjCNE9jMuw9mVChaxvV-sI2gHsNKPlVw


----------



## rayc

eddied said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry to hear that your saga still isn't resolved Dave. I have no advice to offer but I do think it's high time these things were standardised so that we can easily be legal wherever we want to be, Alan.
> 
> 
> 
> Dead simple. Be fully road legal in your country of origin, and you are fully road legal throughout the EU.
> Buon Natale,
> eddied
Click to expand...

Depends what you mean by road legal. I am not required to carry hi viz vests or spare bulbs for example in the UK.


----------



## 113016

More info

http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/motoring/other_motoring_topics/9923.html


----------



## eddied

raynipper said:


> 1302 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tax disc required. Next question.
> 
> 
> 
> Not when you leave UK public roads.!!!
> 
> When this was aired before someone contacted DVLC and was told it was a legality. They were wrong. Someone else contacted DVLC and got an opposite answer. They make it up as they go along.
> 
> Has ANYONE been fined or even wrapped over the knuckles for no tax disc in any other European country?
> 
> Ray.
Click to expand...

In February, about 1986 or 7, I was on my way to UK to MOT my GB registered motorhome, and attend the NEC show. Everything had been timed to coincide - MOT/Tax Disc/Insurance. Near St.Avold in France, I was pulled over by six, yes six, motorcycle gendarmes, and given a thorough going over. It was pointed out to me that in 48 hours time, I would not be road legal in France as my MOT would have expired, automatically invalidating my SAGA insurance. They were quite right, and quite happy that I knew this and my journey was in fact to sort things.
Buon Natale,
eddied


----------



## peribro

eddied said:


> Dead simple. Be fully road legal in your country of origin, and you are fully road legal throughout the EU.


 You mean like a UK registered van towing a car on an A frame in Spain? :?


----------



## raynipper

I guess this is the defining paragraph you are referring to Graham.

General Information
If your vehicle is temporarily taken out of the country but
remains registered in GB, you must ensure that it is licensed
for the duration of your stay abroad.

I would be willing to contest this.

Ray.


----------



## rayc

Grath said:


> This DVLA document says it must be taxed.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ds-cse&usg=AFQjCNE9jMuw9mVChaxvV-sI2gHsNKPlVw


"If your vehicle is temporarily taken out of the country but
remains registered in GB, you must ensure that it is licensed
for the duration of your stay abroad."

I agree and it is just confirming what the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 says.

I believe Alan may concede this is so but wants to know how it is enforced throughout the EU i.e who is going to feel your collar?


----------



## 113016

raynipper said:


> I guess this is the defining paragraph you are referring to Graham.
> 
> General Information
> If your vehicle is temporarily taken out of the country but
> remains registered in GB, you must ensure that it is licensed
> for the duration of your stay abroad.
> 
> I would be willing to contest this.
> 
> Ray.


Ray, I would imagine it is something to do with each Country respecting each others laws and reciprocal agreements.
The French come here with no road tax, but don't get any bother from our Plods.

And two year MOT's


----------



## raynipper

eddied said:


> raynipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1302 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tax disc required. Next question.
> 
> 
> 
> Not when you leave UK public roads.!!!
> 
> When this was aired before someone contacted DVLC and was told it was a legality. They were wrong. Someone else contacted DVLC and got an opposite answer. They make it up as they go along.
> 
> Has ANYONE been fined or even wrapped over the knuckles for no tax disc in any other European country?
> 
> Ray.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In February, about 1986 or 7, I was on my way to UK to MOT my GB registered motorhome, and attend the NEC show. Everything had been timed to coincide - MOT/Tax Disc/Insurance. Near St.Avold in France, I was pulled over by six, yes six, motorcycle gendarmes, and given a thorough going over. It was pointed out to me that in 48 hours time, I would not be road legal in France as my MOT would have expired, automatically invalidating my SAGA insurance. They were quite right, and quite happy that I knew this and my journey was in fact to sort things.
> Buon Natale,
> eddied
Click to expand...

Did they make any reference to the rfl Eddied.?

Ray.


----------



## 113016

rayc said:


> Grath said:
> 
> 
> 
> This DVLA document says it must be taxed.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ds-cse&usg=AFQjCNE9jMuw9mVChaxvV-sI2gHsNKPlVw
> 
> 
> 
> "If your vehicle is temporarily taken out of the country but
> remains registered in GB, you must ensure that it is licensed
> for the duration of your stay abroad."
> 
> I agree and it is just confirming what the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 says.
> 
> I believe Alan may concede this is so but wants to know how it is enforced throughout the EU i.e who is going to feel your collar?
Click to expand...

The problem could arise after any possible serious accident!


----------



## rayc

raynipper said:


> I guess this is the defining paragraph you are referring to Graham.
> 
> General Information
> If your vehicle is temporarily taken out of the country but
> remains registered in GB, you must ensure that it is licensed
> for the duration of your stay abroad.
> 
> I would be willing to contest this.
> 
> Ray.


Do you mean if you were stopped by a Foreign Police Officer or the VOSA equivalent?

Be careful because it would not be unknown for DVLA to withdraw the Registration if they become aware. I would suggest that contesting it at that stage would not lead you to a fruitful outcome.


----------



## 1302

We were away for 7 months so hoping we could avoid re-taxing it until we returned asked DVLA and our insurers. Both told us it needed to be taxed.

I couldnt see any value in trying to be clever and avoid it - the paperwork wrangle following a bump and anything 'not being in order' outweighed the £70 saving...


----------



## erneboy

Grath said:


> This DVLA document says it must be taxed.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ds-cse&usg=AFQjCNE9jMuw9mVChaxvV-sI2gHsNKPlVw


Yes, we are all well aware what their opinion is, and opinion/their interpretation of UK law is all that is. Where is the law which actually makes this a requirement in Europe please, Alan.


----------



## 113016

Personally, I tax, insure and have yearly MOT's and I will continue to do what is the law in my own Country as this is where I spend most of my time.
However I can understand people such as Alan and Ray who spend longer periods abroad and even hardly ever coming back here to the UK.
But then maybe foreign registered vehicles could be even better.


----------



## 113016

erneboy said:


> Grath said:
> 
> 
> 
> This DVLA document says it must be taxed.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ds-cse&usg=AFQjCNE9jMuw9mVChaxvV-sI2gHsNKPlVw
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we are all well aware what their opinion is, and opinion/their interpretation of UK law is all that is. Where is the law which actually makes this a requirement in Europe please, Alan.
Click to expand...

If DVLA stipulate it in writing (not verbal) and say it is a requirement, then it must be the law, or am I missing something.


----------



## rayc

erneboy said:


> Grath said:
> 
> 
> 
> This DVLA document says it must be taxed.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ds-cse&usg=AFQjCNE9jMuw9mVChaxvV-sI2gHsNKPlVw
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we are all well aware what their opinion is, and opinion/their interpretation of UK law is all that is. Where is the law which actually makes this a requirement in Europe please, Alan.
Click to expand...

The law is the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.
It states that a vehicle registered under the act requires to have VED paid. It makes no definition of where the vehicle actually is, if it is UK registered then it must be taxed unless t is exempt in line with the regulations. 
As I said if DVLA were to become aware that the vehicle was being used abroad whilst UK registered but without VED being paid than there is very likely i.e. almost certain that they would withdraw the registration. The vehicle would then be 'stateless' and the validity of insurance cover would be under question.

I guess that like most things when you are an adult you decide. whilst things are going smoothly then what's the problem. Its when something goes wrong that the real cost of not conforming with regulations is discovered.


----------



## raynipper

Grath said:


> Personally, I tax, insure and have yearly MOT's and I will continue to do what is the law in my own Country as this is where I spend most of my time.
> However I can understand people such as Alan and Ray who spend longer periods abroad and even hardly ever coming back here to the UK.
> But then maybe foreign registered vehicles could be even better.


Yes, Graham.
All our vehicles are now French registered to keep from having to bring them back at great cost on the ferry to MOT, etc.

But all the time we were using our UK registered car mostly in France and only occasionally in France I always sent the disc back for a refund to DVLC about 3 or 4 times a year. I always received the refund immediately. This was pre SORN days.

Since SORN days I did get into a lengthy discussion with DVLC who kept insisting I was exporting my car as it was being used more in France than UK. 
But even they in the end accepted our usage and apologised for the 'confusion' in the way they had interpreted their own rules.

We did eventually reg the car in France but kept getting a refund of rfl each and every time we left the country.
I am trying to find this e-mail from DVLC at this moment.

Ray.


----------



## erneboy

I think you are. That is their interpretation of the law.

Where is the actual law and how can it be applied outside the UK unless it's European law?

Alan.


----------



## rayc

erneboy said:


> I think you are. That is their interpretation of the law.
> 
> Where is the actual law and how can it be applied outside the UK unless it's European law?
> 
> Alan.


It can be applied by DVLA withdrawing the vehicles UK registration.


----------



## erneboy

Can anyone please provide evidence of that having happened because a vehicle was used outside the UK untaxed? Alan.


----------



## 113016

Alan, What am I missing?. If DVLA print it is law, surely it must be.

Here is Croners
Somebody would need to have it to check the information required.
The link is just to show where the guide is.

http://cronersolutions.co.uk/sectors-and-associations/transport/croner-i-road-transport-expert/


----------



## erneboy

I give up.

At no time during all the years this topic has been discussed on here and on various other web sites have I ever seen a direct link to any law which could be applied in Europe (or anywhere outside the UK) to require a UK registered vehicle to be taxed or MoTd when not in the UK.

It's my belief that while opinions abound on this topic no such law exists. I can't prove that because it's impossible to prove a negative.

Those who think that there is such a law are cordially invited to post a link directly to that law. Not some opinion from a partisan leaflet or someones interpretation. The actual law which is capable of being applied outside the UK to require that UK vehicles must comply with UK laws on road tax and Mot when not in the UK.

I respect your opinions but they do not hold ant weight in law. I do entirely agree that keeping all the paperwork right is sensible but I don't currently believe there is any law compelling it, Alan.


----------



## rayc

erneboy said:


> I give up.
> 
> At no time during all the years this topic has been discussed on here and on various other web sites have I ever seen a direct link to any law which could be applied in Europe (or anywhere outside the UK) to require a UK registered vehicle to be taxed or MoTd when not in the UK.
> 
> It's my belief that while opinions abound on this topic no such law exists. I can't prove that because it's impossible to prove a negative.
> 
> Those who think that there is such a law are cordially invited to post a link directly to that law. Not some opinion from a partisan leaflet or someones interpretation. The actual law which is capable of being applied outside the UK to require that UK vehicles must comply with UK laws on road tax and Mot when not in the UK.
> 
> I respect your opinions but they do not hold ant weight in law. I do entirely agree that keeping all the paperwork right is sensible but I don't currently believe there is any law compelling it, Alan.


Which part of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 do you believe does not apply once the vehicle has been temporarily exported [less than 12 months]? What exemption are you claiming? This is the law compelling it.

"duty of excise ("vehicle excise duty") shall be charged in respect of every mechanically propelled vehicle that-
(a)is registered under this Act "


----------



## erneboy

How can a UK law apply in another country please? Please show me the European legislation to allow that? Who would apply it. Under what legislation in another country would they have the right to apply a UK motoring laws regarding tax and MoT?

I won't say any more on this topic unless someone can show me a European law which permits the UK to extend the rule of UK law beyond the shores of the UK, or European legislation requiring UK tax or MoT in another country.

Alan.


----------



## rayc

erneboy said:


> How can a UK law apply in another country please?
> Alan.


It applies all round the world. For your vehicle to be legally UK registered it must, among other things comply with the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994. This lists the requirements for temporary [less then 12 months] and permanent export [over 12 months].

It is a condition of having your vehicle registered with the UK authorities that it will comply with the conditions of registration, one is that it will comply with the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.

Of course you are free to do what you want


----------



## erneboy

I am aware that you maintain that the UK has such a law and I am sure you are correct.

Now would you care to address the questions I ask? How can it be enforced, by whom and under what legislation does UK law have force in another country?

Let me put it another way, if someone didn't bother with UK tax and MoT while out of the country what could any foreign Police do about it and where is the legislation to say that they could take action to enforce the law of another country?

Forget about the possible threat that the DVLA might deregister a vehicle being used in that way. I am sure they probably could but no one can show that such a thing has ever happened. Or even that the DVLA have ever threatened to do it.

As to me doing as I please, I tick all the boxes but my point is that I can't see how I am actually required to do that.

Anyway, I have nothing more to say on the topic unless someone can post some law to move the discussion forward, Alan.


----------



## alhod

I have not read every post on this topic so apologise if this has already been said by A N Other, but have just checked my insurance, Comfort Insurance as the Motorhome Facts broker, policy issued by Aviva.
The wording is completely clear and unequivocal :

In the para headed Lond Term Touring and Full Timing

The motor caravan must at all times have a valid MOT certificate (unless not required due to age of the vehicle) and current UK road fund tax licence tax disc.

I guess that if the vehicle is "Sorned" the insurance is not valid.

Alan


----------



## Stanner

erneboy said:


> I am aware that you maintain that the UK has such a law and I am sure you are correct.
> 
> Now would you care to address the questions I ask? How can it be enforced, by whom and under what legislation does UK law have force in another country?
> 
> Let me put it another way, if someone didn't bother with UK tax and MoT while out of the country what could any foreign Police do about it and where is the legislation to say that they could take action to enforce the law of another country?
> 
> Forget about the possible threat that the DVLA might deregister a vehicle being used in that way. I am sure they probably could but no one can show that such a thing has ever happened. Or even that the DVLA have ever threatened to do it.
> 
> As to me doing as I please, I tick all the boxes but my point is that I can't see how I am actually required to do that.
> 
> Anyway, I have nothing more to say on the topic unless someone can post some law to move the discussion forward, Alan.


As has been said Alan, registration of the vehicle with DVLA is not a right, it is a privilege and that can be withdrawn. 
You do not own the registration mark, you only have a licence to use it and that licence can (and has been, but admittedly not often) withdrawn if the conditions that apply to it are broken.

The sanction the DVLA have is to withdraw your licence to use your registration mark and so make your vehicle unlawful everywhere. 
I'm sure most (if not all) European countries have laws that enable them to take action against unregistered vehicles being used on their roads.


----------



## raynipper

raynipper said:


> Ere we go again. This ole chesnut keeps recurring every now and again.
> Then comes all the guesswork and suppositions of what people and the DVLC (who change day by day) giving their interpretations.
> 
> RFL is a UK tax and nothing to do with legality in another country. You will be saying we need a TV license to watch Spanish TV next.... :roll:
> 
> Ray.


Although Graham has given us DVLC wording, I still maintain my original post is relevant.

Do I need to carry High Vis jackets, Bulb Kits, Warning Triangles, Blood alcohol kits, etc. while I am touring UK.??

Ray.


----------



## erneboy

I give up.


----------



## grizzlyj

Or do the French need hiviz here, or a Spaniard need two warning triangles here? How would the British Police charge them? With what?

Roadworthyness I'm sure they can and do enforce without the need to check country specific pieces of paper.

The DVLA don't remove plates for prolonged trips outside Europe, and don't insist you import your UK vehicle to another country if you are out of the country for more than 12 months travelling despite their wording. They have a very general line which covers just about everyone, but not everyone.

The checking and enforcing of a UK MOT outside the UK must surely require EU law, so nothing the DVLA has to say on the matter would come into it? We need to find a law under "We will get those cheeky Brits this time" :lol:


----------



## raynipper

I feel the DVLA 'agency' is required to maximise revenue for the Treasury and a few inaccuracies are not going to stop them.

How many millions do they make selling 'Personal Plates' that are only readable when staged illegally?

How many times have members on this forum got conflicting advice and replies from them.? As a government Agency do we believe them whole heartedly??? Not on your life.

Ray.


----------



## sweetie

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

A foreign car driving on British roads is only permitted to drive under the original plates for up to 6 months, and only if the taxes are paid in its country of origin.

I would be surprised if the EU regs in the rest of the EU were different, I would therefore assume that all taxes must be paid in the UK to use a UK registered car abroad.

I know several continental friends working over here go to France on a day trip just prior to the expiry of the 6 months. This breaks the time period and it starts from day one again.

Dave p
edit
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motorin...icle/ImportingAndExportingAVehicle/DG_4022582

Taking your vehicle abroad for less than 12 months (temporary export)

*If a UK registered vehicle is taken abroad temporarily, it remains subject to UK law. This means that you as the keeper, must by law make sure that the vehicle stays taxed while it's overseas. *Providing the vehicle has a current MOT certificate and insurance, you'll be able to tax the vehicle.

If you don't tax the vehicle and it's brought back to the UK untaxed, the vehicle will need to be transported and not driven upon entry back to the UK and SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) should be declared straight away.

You can tax or SORN online or by telephone, but please note that SORN can't be made while the vehicle is abroad.

If you don't have a registration certificate and you are taking the vehicle out the country on a temporary basis you can get a replacement from DVLA by phoning or applying by post.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## 113016

Alan, I have just received this message from a member on Wild who has been following this thread. The member has lived in Spain for many years and is considered very reliable.

The following is the message I received.
Spain

Grath just to let you know this year the DVLA were in Alicant to show the Police what an English tax look like my son has been with the Guardia Civil now for 5 years, so after reading on motorhome facts i ask him what he dose if they stop any motor that is not got any tax showing he said first it is a fine.then they inform DVLA if it has got tax or the tax has been lost they fax a cover note over then you can pick the motor up at the pound, they clear about 6 motor,s a month in his area,


----------



## raynipper

Oh my Gawd. Are there no hiding places left.???

I'm gonna run away and hide. And if they find me I will hide again.. :roll: 

Ray.


----------



## alhod

I'm sure that the checks are not so rigorous in Iraq and maybe not even in Iran so perhaps that is the place for anyone wanting to avoid paying £180 per year road tax. 
But if in Europe, what is your problem????

Alan


----------



## erneboy

alhod said:


> I'm sure that the checks are not so rigorous in Iraq and maybe not even in Iran so perhaps that is the place for anyone wanting to avoid paying £180 per year road tax.
> But if in Europe, what is your problem????
> 
> Alan


I can't let that go unanswered. The problem is not the money, not in the least. It's having to come home every year for an MoT in order to be allowed to pay the road tax.

Do you understand that ????????????????? Alan.


----------



## erneboy

Grath. please ask your correspondent for a link to a Spanish Government or Guardia web site where we can read about this, Alan.


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

Merry Christmas Alan.

Dave p


----------



## rayc

erneboy said:


> Grath. please ask your correspondent for a link to a Spanish Government or Guardia web site where we can read about this, Alan.


Alan, this is what the British Embassy in Madrid have to say about it. I can't vouch for its accuracy. Ray

http://ukinspain.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-spain/cars

It looks like the Spanish Police are tightening up on things if this forum topic is anything to go by:

http://www.marbellafamilyfun.com/uk-other-non-spanish-plated-cars.html


----------



## 113016

erneboy said:


> Grath. please ask your correspondent for a link to a Spanish Government or Guardia web site where we can read about this, Alan.


Alan, I have sent a pm as per your request.


----------



## grizzlyj

From https://www.gov.uk/taking-vehicles-out-of-uk/for-less-than-12-months in Daves link above

"If you bring your vehicle back to the UK untaxed you can't drive it back into the UK"

Why doesn't that say "back into the EU"? :twisted:

I know of one posh motorhome converter (Unicat) who can offer German plates which require no annual return for test. Wouldn't that be nice?


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## erneboy

grizzlyj said:


> "If you bring your vehicle back to the UK untaxed you can't drive it back into the UK"


That will surprise dozens of us who have done just that.

Don't you think that if that were true it would have happened to at least one person on here during the years MHF has been on the go. I am sure it would have but oddly I have no recollection of having read about it. I am fairly sure I would have bookmarked a topic mentioning that.

Like most of the other information on this thread there is no record of it ever having happened, Alan.


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## Penquin

You have not read it 'cos it is not true...

as asprn pointed and as has been pointed out on here you can legally drive a vehicle without an MoT to an MoT testing station for a pre-booked appointment.

You cannot retax your vehicle until you have a current MoT so therefore you can drive without VED to and back from the MoT testing station.

You MUST have insurance and if you are stopped you would explain that you are on your way to the pre-booked MoT and therefore cannot have VED. And of course show the details of the pre-booked MoT.

Once you have the MoT you can then apply for VED, so the order MUST be;

1. arrange insurance

2. obtain MoT certificate

3. apply for VED either via Post Office, or DVLA in person or on line or by post.

Of course you can no longer get away with "Tax applied for" in your windscreen as they can check instantly while you are driving along.....

ANPL gets everywhere nowadays....

This is allowed within the law I believe - asprn has stated it so it MUST be true........ :lol: 

Dave


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## 113016

Alan, I have heard back from my contact in Spain and he cannot supply the information you request without his son been involved. A pretty big ask for someone not involved with M/hs and at the festive season.
If we do receive it, I will post, but we have been told and pre warned. 
This was pretty good of them


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## BrianJP

I havn't read all 11 pages of this subject but would like to have some input. Regardless of the interpretation being put on UK laws by others, as far as actually using the vehicle in Spain is concerned the situation is clear. The Spanish require a foreign reg vehicle to be fully legal in the country of registration. In practical terms this was outlined last year in an article in a Spanish newspaper . The quote from the officlal from the Guardia Civil said that they expected any vehicle to be roadworthy and have any tax due in the country of origin to be paid ( ie UK tax disc, German plates etc).
Although this has been ignored by the authorities in Spain for years and abused by Brits/Germans/Dutch and French residents in Spain who are driving old vehicles from their homeland around untaxed/untested and in some cases uninsured the Spanish police are now clamping down.
Because of the austerity measures now in place in Spain the Guardia Civil and Policia Local have to raise income which is being acheived by traffic fines. As such many foreign vehicles are now being pulled up for checks and there have been many cases where I stay in Spain of fines being imposed and even vehicles being impounded.


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## 1302

BrianJP said:


> there have been many cases where I stay in Spain of fines being imposed and even vehicles being impounded.


We know a Brit in Portugal who had his untaxed UK car impounded - he saw the bloke who took it off him driving it a week later.

I accept its more difficult to run a UK in Portugal although the 'take it to Spain for a day trip does exist to try and get round it but they are clamping down


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## 113016

Alan, my contact suggests you email the Spanish Embassy as you cannot get into the Guarda Civil website without an ID number.


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## erneboy

Thanks Graham.

I will just continue to wait till we see a credible report of some action having been taken against the driver of a UK registered vehicle for not having UK road tax or MoT in another country.

Odd how people think it's so common and yet no one can produce a single verifiable instance of it having happened. Please note the word verifiable.

I remain convinced that it hasn't happened.

Anyway enough of that. I am definitely done on this thread.

Have a good Christmas.


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## javea

Been trawling the old Costa Blanca newspaper articles related to this subject, as I am posting from an iPad will have to paste them individually so here goes with the first one:

http://www.roundtownnews.com/rtn-ne...-so-far?-its-time-to-import-your-vehicle.html

From July 2009

Mike


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## javea

Another one:

http://costablanca.angloinfo.com/forum/viewtopic/11591/0/crackdown-on-untaxedun-motd-uk-vehicles

Mike


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## javea

The third from February, obviously aimed mainly at ex-pats but they could well pick up visitors who have no UK tax disc current.

http://www.exiteradio.com/?tag=police-checks

Mike


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## 1302

erneboy said:


> .... and yet no one can produce a single verifiable instance of it having happened. Please note the word verifiable.
> 
> I remain convinced that it hasn't happened.
> 
> .


My post of 7.38 covers this - one chap had his aging Jaguar pulled. A bar owner in Cabanas was pulled over in Nissan Cherry and warned to make it dissappear - I gather they werent interested in a 20 year old banger. He was so convinced this would be the case he has hidden his Mercedes Estate around at my mates house out of sight until its either taxed or registered legitimately in Portugal.


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## raynipper

So much for the EEC and free movement of goods and people.???

Seems like the Spanish are having a purge just to raise revenue.

I do know that in France you can get French insurance on a UK reg vehicle for 28 days while you process the import and registration procedure.
This will be extended at least up to 6 months as I have done it due to the hurdles you have to overcome to register.
I also have had several French MOTs (Controle Techniques) on a UK reged vehicles again while endeavouring to meet the French requirements for registration.

I read recently the EEC were going to insist movement and registration of member state vehicles to be made easier.

Does this mean the Spanish are going against EEC rules.?

Ray.


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## listerdiesel

I thought that what I wrote 12 pages of posts ago was about right.... :lol: 

Happy Xmas everyone!

Peter


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## sweetie

javea said:


> The third from February, obviously aimed mainly at ex-pats but they could well pick up visitors who have no UK tax disc current.
> 
> http://www.exiteradio.com/?tag=police-checks
> 
> Mike


Only have to convince erneboy now. Or will he think he is still right


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## Penquin

raynipper said:


> Seems like the Spanish are having a purge just to raise revenue.
> 
> I do know that in France you can get French insurance on a UK reg vehicle for 28 days while you process the import and registration procedure.
> This will be extended at least up to 6 months as I have done it due to the hurdles you have to overcome to register.
> I also have had several French MOTs (Controle Techniques) on a UK reged vehicles again while endeavouring to meet the French requirements for registration.
> 
> I read recently the EEC were going to insist movement and registration of member state vehicles to be made easier.
> 
> Does this mean the Spanish are going against EEC rules.?
> 
> Ray.


Our MH has been insured by the French MMA for 5 months now, they keep asking about re-registration but when we simply say it is at the Sous Prefecture at Bergerac they seem willing to accept that. The controle technique is French, the insurance is French, we would have a French registration if the Prefecture could find the entry - even though they have been given copies of it from the Paris HQ they are still unable to do it at present - it has only taken 6 months so far......

But bigger guns are being pointed after Christmas so watch this space.......... we will have ANTS involved from Paris........

The EU introduced a new ruling, accepted by all countries (including France) to make the whole process much easier and quicker so that it should be done within days of import.......

but of course the French will probably find another loop hole to get in the way unles they can inject more bureaucracy........ - theur absolute forte......

So no, the Spanish are enforcing the EC rules - all vehicles should be roadworthy and legal for their registered country, it is daft to say they won't be interested as they will - it is not quite so quick for e.g. the Spanish Garda to communicate with DVLA as the UK Government refused to pay the fee for linkage BUT it can still be done........

Trying to avoid being legal is downright stupid and anyone doing it deserves the punishment that they may well get.......

Dave


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## erneboy

You knew I would answer that Sweetness.

While I have the utmost respect for Mike the link he has posted seems to be to a blog written by it's members. Click on the initials of the author at the top of the post. Read the replies, ther are a few sceptics there just as I am one here.

One may as well cite MHF as being an authoritative source and, Lord knows, we are both only too well aware what an error that would be.

As to what 1302 said. I am sure he is quite correct but the cars in question had clearly out stayed the temporary permission to import. They were the cars of residents and so the Police took action to have them either rereigstered or taken off the road. Quite rightly. That is not what is under discussion here.

Penquin. Dave at no time have I suggested anything other than maintaining both tax and Mot. My interest is in how a foreign Police force could apply UK law or require a car outside the UK so to do.

Nowhere in this, or any other thread has a single instance of that been cited first hand or nor has any authoritative report been linked to and no one has been able to produce any evidence of any law which makes UK on road tax or MoT enforceable in another country.

So while speculation and knowing someone who knows someone etc. makes for ripping yarns and frightening the natives they prove absolutely nothing, Alan.


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## grizzlyj

Happy Christmas chaps and chapesses


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