# Gas conversions to engine



## flyboy (May 10, 2005)

I am thinking about a gas conversion for my Fiat ducato 2.8jtd Has anyone had a conversion done? and what was the result? any problems with warranty etc?
With fuel at a £1 a litre I have to do something to keep us rolling.
If you have had a conversion please let me know where and how much, and can the domestic side be run off the tank as well?
Thanks


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Hi *flyboy*. We had our old Coachmen converted to run on LPG. The first conversion was incorrect but was changed later to a correct one. We were very happy with our secnond set-up. It does pay to shop around for a conversion. But try to pick a company that has been doing it for some time. There is no reason why the internal gas could not be run from these LPG tanks provided you had the correct regulator fitted in the gas line. veralynn on this forum made and fitted their own on-board lpg supply. :wink:

TB Turbo of Lancaster are not far from you >>> HERE <<<. :wink:


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## rowley (May 14, 2005)

LPG conversions are normally only carried out on petrol powered vehicles. My Boxer did 16/17mpg on lpg, 20mpg on petrol, although of course the fuel cost of the lpg/litre was less than half of petrol. I understand that there is a system where lpg can be used with diesel but it was expensive.


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Sorry. Didn't notice the td.  

Diesel engines can be converted to run partly on LPG, partly on diesel. This method uses the combustion of the diesel to ignite the LPG. The benefits include large increases in power and reduction in emissions, particularly the black smoke often associated with diesels.
Typically a ratio of 30% LPG to 70% diesel is possible. No adjustments are required to the diesel injection system and fuel savings come from the fact that throttle openings are lower due to the greatly increased power, which basically means you do not have to press the accelerator as hard to get the same performance.
Fuel savings upwards of 30% are possible with the increased power levels seen as a major benefit to users. :wink:


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## moncayomike (May 11, 2005)

Pleased to see the reply about partial conversion, what is the cost, who does it and is it worth it?????


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## 89342 (May 20, 2005)

In order of asking:-

1) Over £2,000

2) For starters:-
http://www.ilovesponge.com/spongecars/diesel/diesel.htm

http://www.futurefueltechnology.co.uk/HGV/what_is_lpg.php

(with the latter, note the last paragraph)

3) It's a bargain; if you do 3000 miles a week @ 11.6 mpg

I gave up on this 2 years ago. An old petrol engined m/home with lpg conv. makes some economic sense, as does specifying lpg/cng engines from new if possible, but that's all IMHO

There are other ways to save fuel as we all know well, but one of them makes painful hearing for owners of low mileage diesel vehicles.

Hedge

PS Where is the GoogleMeister? --- He used to latch onto this type of thread in a nano second. Oh well I suppose it can be exhausting work. I do hope he has not given up, but i note he has slipped to No3 in the ratings


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

sorry taking so long to reply to your post on gas JSW, but having a quick break near Kings Lynn, I am connecting Via GRSM so very slow I am unable to find the original thread. you mention prices of £800.00 all the converters and dealers I spoke to were quoting in the region of £3,000 

Reading your post on here about using the onboard tank the engine needs a liquid supply of gas which is obtained from the bottom of the tank where as the appliances need the vapour, which comes from the top of the tank. I spoke to one converter and he pointed out that onboard tanks for appliances are only ever filled to 80% max. to allw for vapour, where as engine tanks can be filled to 100% 

olley


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## rowley (May 14, 2005)

Olley, I think that all the tanks should cut off at 80%.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi rowley not according to Logical forget the blokes name but he said that you can fill them to the top, if by any chance you then do not move, and its a hot day any increase in pressure will simply be vented through the safety valve. He seemed to know what he was talking about, unlike me!

olley


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## flyboy (May 10, 2005)

Thanks guys it is all very interesting. I have been quoted £1600 for the conversion. I am going to the Northern Motor Home show so I will see if anyone is offering the conversion. I would be a bit worried about the guy that says fill the tank 100% because it will vent if it gets hot! what happens if someone throws a cig but under your vehicle? could be very nasty. I do not think I would let him convert mine.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Flyboy, he told me you could fill it to the top because you would almost certainly be driving a sufficient distance after filling to give enough space for expansion without blowing the safety valve.
I get 9 to the gallon on petrol say 2 miles to the litre, so after 2 miles i will have used 1 litre of fuel, I do not know the coefficient of expansion for LPG but I think its unlikely that any increase in temperature would cause a problem. 
In a large area like the underside of a motorhome any gas vented would swiftly disperse.
Be careful of anyone doing a gas con. using Italian components as several people have suggested that they are cheap but not very reliable, the best apparently are Dutch.

Olley


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## flyboy (May 10, 2005)

Thanks for the information. It all helps, I will chat to a few guys at the show to see what information I can get. I think with the price of fuel going up so high it will be a good move to get it done.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

olley said:


> Hi rowley not according to Logical forget the blokes name but he said that you can fill them to the top, if by any chance you then do not move, and its a hot day any increase in pressure will simply be vented through the safety valve. He seemed to know what he was talking about, unlike me!
> 
> olley


http://www.dti.gov.uk/energy/inform/energy_trends/lpg_art_dec2001.pdf

An extract from the site

Filling up with LPG is very similar to a conventional pump in that it has a nozzle that connects it to 
the connector, the fill button is pressed on the dispenser and there is a meter to inform you how 
much it costs. The gas, which is stored beneath the ground in pressurised tanks, is pumped in as 
a liquid travelling through a hose. When the tank is full (this is achieved at 80% of capacity), the 
dispenser stops and the nozzle can be removed.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi Scotjimland I agree that what the site says, but I can only go by Logical, perhaps someone who has had a conversion will post, and tell us what they do. 
Mine goes in Monday so if you wait till the end of next week perhaps I will have some first hand experience.

Olley


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## flyboy (May 10, 2005)

Scotjimland,

that is a very interesting article, although some of it is now out of date as on diesel engines they use a % of diesel to gas as the ignition is caused be diesel compression so no need for a ignition system.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi olly

I have a large LPG tank on the RV, it has two take off points, gas for appliances and liquid for the generator.. 
The fill valve is set in the tank at the 80% level and when filling it automatically cuts off at this point. It's theoretically impossible to fill more. 
On the tank there is a warning label about having the auto shut off valve checked annually to ensure it's working properly. It will be interesting to hear from someone with a liquid only system. 

Hi flyboy

thanks for pointing out the out of date info, I believe the new LPG/Diesel system uses 25% LPG. Allegedly more power and better economy .. no idea of the conversion costs.


Jim


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi further to my recent post I have now got the griff, I misunderstood the man at Logical   All tanks have valve which cuts off the gas at 80% but with a liquid only tank this was in his opinion, not vitally important from a safety point of view, if you filled the tanks to 100% and then left the vehicle in the hot sun all day, any increase in pressure would easily be vented by the safety valve, LPG in its liquid state is incompressible so only a small amount would be vented to lower the pressure, which would easily and safely disperse in the atmosphere. 
They have got to reduce the size of the petrol tank by about a third to allow them to fit the LPG tanks, and hopefully i can pick it up Saturday, their workshops although old are very clean and tidy, gives you some confidence that they will not leave big black marks all over the furniture.

Olley


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

An idea of what some of the components look like can be found here

http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/lpgsys.html


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Hi *olley*. I've been away for a week and haven't managed to catch all the threads while I was away. What I mentioned was the cost of the parts to do a conversion. The rest that is charged is the labour cost. Some are making a BIG killing. :evil:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi JSW hope you had a good time, looking on the internet last night and it would seem you can buy kit for £1000-£1200 Logical quote 50 hours to fit, garage rates are anywhere from £30 per hour to £76 (mecedes garage) in this area. if you said only 40 hours at £35 that's still £1400 plus kit, all plus vat. I am not defending the price, but I do not think its a ripoff. 
And as you found out it needs to be done right. Hopfully I will get what I am paying for, only time will tell.

Olley


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Hi *olley*. Here is a direct quote (2x LPG tanks) from a company that advertises on ebay:-

The kit for the motorhome would be £590 assuming that the tanks are to be mounted underneath the vehicle (as opposed to inside the vehicle). You would also need the programing lead and software £46. Shipping would be £45 due to the extra weight of the tanks (or you can collect for free)

:idea: For £300 you could go on a course which would include the fitting of your own LPG system. Just a thought. :wink:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

I would't need the course JSW i spent 25 years working on heavy plant including gas powered fork trucks, unfortunately last year I was diagnosed with a serious illness from which i am still recovering, if the wife saw me crawling around under the RV I would have my Bo--ocks kicked, she even insists on carrying the shopping!! 

Friends?? now say that not only am I mentally incapacitated but now phyisically as well :lol: :lol: 

Olley


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi update on the gas con. logical just phoned they had to wait for fuel tank so will not be done till monday   so no shepton mallet   

Also discovered some burnt wiring in the engine loom when fitting Cat 1 alarm, they are investigating this, hope its nothing serious.

Olley


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

olley said:


> Also discovered some burnt wiring in the engine loom when fitting Cat 1 alarm, they are investigating this, hope its nothing serious.
> 
> Olley


 8O That's ironic. I thought I had some on my Gulfstream. It looked like there had been a fire and the wiring loom was matted together. On checking it out. It turned out to be insulation foam that had discoulored in the heat of the engine bay.  Also on the Minnie Winnie there were some similar matted wiring but everything seems to be working OK with no power loss. :?


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Logical phoned today burnt wiring is from ignition switch to a connector, John said that as the switch is bonded together he has had to order a new one from Austria? should be here tomorrow.

He cannot find a reason for this, bit worrying, on the way back from france wife said she could smell burning, would appear she was right (again) :roll: 

Gas con. done so should be ok for york.

Olley


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

8O That is a worry *olley*. Glad you got your conversion sorted out. Happy cheap RV'ing. :wink:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi Kands, picked bus up on saturday, conversion looks ok, after fitting they spay paint it all (cover dodgy bits up :lol: ) drove up to York but because of all the talk about mud went to sheffield shopping instead, no difference in driving on gas or petrol. no MPH figures yet as I don't know how much they put in.

Filled the LPG tanks for the first time, what a noise starts as a scream then changes to a pneumatic hammer noise is this normal?

Tried to start genny no go, removed cover and checked petrol line, tried sucking; nothing (petrol still tastes bloody awefull) when they replaced the petrol tank they have crushed petrol pipe to genny, back to logical on monday so they can drop tank and fix. 

The burnt wire was from the ignition switch down to a multi connector, about 18" of wire with two multi connecters £125 they have no idea why it heated up. if it happens again I will take it to dudleys.


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

olley said:



> Filled the LPG tanks for the first time, what a noise starts as a scream then changes to a pneumatic hammer noise is this normal?
> 
> Tried to start genny no go, removed cover and checked petrol line, tried sucking; nothing (petrol still tastes bloody awefull) when they replaced the petrol tank they have crushed petrol pipe to genny, back to logical on monday so they can drop tank and fix.
> 
> The burnt wire was from the ignition switch down to a multi connector, about 18" of wire with two multi connecters £125 they have no idea why it heated up. if it happens again I will take it to dudleys.


The scream shouldn't be too loud and the hammer noise is the pump. Shame about the petrol pipe being crushed. One thing they did wrong on my first conversion was failing to have a return pipe from the mechanical lift pump. The pump eventually siezed up and leaked when turned back to petrol. I would certainly keep an eye on the cable that burnt out. Is there any way that there could have been water ingress? Sometimes they cover these connetor's with sealer. :wink:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi JSW thanks for the info on the noise, it was a bit worrying, pity logical didn't warn me. had visions of playing a harp :lol: 

The wire that burnt was with 20 others from ignition switch to a connector halfway down steering column, no water there, it then joins a bundle of perhaps 40, difficult to get to and almost immposible to trace, i can get a wiring diagram off the net from workhorse for 84$. may do this or wait to see if its been cured, or take it to dudleys :? 

Phone the winnie club in england but he could only suggest Dudleys 

Olley


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

8O Hi *olley*. Was there any sign of the cable arcing on the steering column or mounting? I have seen the odd nick or two on some I have worked on and they run close to some emtal in various places. :evil: Hope it stays OK anyway. Finding wiring diagrams is a pain. :roll:

Just another point about LPG. Connecting and disconnecting to some can give a quick release of gas. So beware and keep your hands safe. Especially if you go to France. :wink:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi JSW one of the dealers told me he buys the large gas bottles 47kg? and pumps the gas into his motorhome, he says this is the cheapest way to buy gas. ever heard of this? ABP sell a LPG pump for £390

Olley


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Hi *olley*. Yes they have been doing it for quite some time. I am not so sure it is cheaper here in the UK? It may be for the 47kg. Storage is the problem. It was something I considered in Spain due to the difficulty of filling up there. Pumps are availeable on ebay for around £250. :wink: I also considered one of those Domestic Cyclinders (BIG) on a trailer. :lol:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

I have two tanks giving a nominal capacity of 180 litres when filling them after approx 110 litres the fill rates slows dramaticaly, so much that on most occasions i give up, today at morrisons the pump just stopped after 41 litres, (i know it wasn,t full) i was trying to top up ready for next trip, anybody else get this or any ideas?

Olley


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

8O Hi *olley*. Yes I have had it in the past at a regular place I used to fill up in Southampton and another near Luton. It is a delivery pump problem. It's a pain. Especially when you have made a detour to fill-up and just about runout. :evil:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Thanks JSW, beginning to wish i had stuck to petrol :roll: I think i need to fit another tank somehow, to extend the range, mpg seems to be about 7.5 compared to petrol 9.5 which is less than i had hoped for, but looking at energy densitys lpg is almost a third less so this would appear to be about right.

What was your mpg differance?

Olley


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Update on lpg conversion, after trying various garages it became obvious that there was a problem with one of the two LPG tanks, i could only get about 110 litres in instead of 180 approx.

arranged to take it back to logical first thing this morning, they found a faulty tank valve which they replaced. Everything seems ok now

All through there has been a couple of problems with the conversion logical have put them right immediately so the backup appears to be very good.

Did have one problem through, I posted previously that a bit of the welding they had done was pigeon s...t while true this was not a safety issue, unfortunately a member of this forum pointed this post out to them which caused a few words to be spoken. I accept that this is a public forum and they could have read it themselves, but they didn't. Where i come from this is called s..t stirring! thanks.

Olley


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Olley

Glad to hear it's all sorted now  

It's hard to believe that someone on here would go out of their way to stir up s**t .. takes all kinds I guess


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2005)

*lpg*

hi olley i have read the tread on lpg con with interest and i am looking to convert my own..ford v8 7.4 ,were is this logical? how mutch did it cost.
in hindsight would you do it again? i live in the west midlands do you know of any near me?ive had a quote of £2500 but its in south wales had other quote but wont it for 2 weeks ,do a bit here an a bit there whilst working on cars.
its a big outlay,but petrol is aswell. im new to rv in an don't know witch way to turn. i also intend to keep my first motorhome so will have a choice 
for a look at them both go to members motorhomes...wagler2bb

yours ..totaly confused


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi waggler2bb logical are about 5 miles from northampton, the cost was £3000+vat that was for 2 tanks plus convert, extra tanks are £500. 

In the brave there was not sufficient room underneath to fit the tanks without reducing the size of the fuel tank another £500 to do this. (I didn't want to lose locker space)

Financially it doesn't really make sense, I will need to do a minimum of 25,000miles to break even, if the differential between petrol and Lpg stays the same. :roll: But I knew that everytime I filled up with petrol at 90p I would be looking at the Lpg at 42p and feeling sick :lol: 

But we do travel the miles, since june we have covered 5000 miles, I expect to do about 7000-8000 miles a year so break even in about 3 years, if we keep it that long. :lol: 

Jsw another member of this site did his own, not a huge job he said, cost about £800 if i remember rightly.

Off to a xmas do now at five lakes in essex food,booze and sleep the night loverly :lol: :lol: 

Olley


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi update on conversion.
Now the tank has been fixed I can fill up, takes about 160-170 litres max. no other problems runs very smooth, you can switch between the two without any effect on the engine. at 42p per litre i am getting petrol equivalent of about 15mpg.

I want another tank there's no room down below and I don't want to give up locker space, so what about the ROOF! I could easily sit a tank inbetween the two aircons, total weight would be about 75kg for 100litre tank, this would increase my centre of gravity slightly, but at 8 tons GVW i doubt i will notice.

The reason is that out of suffolk I can buy LPG alot cheaper. Anybody got any thoughts on this?

Olley


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

:lol: Hi *olley*. I cannot see any reason why your could fit one (or two?) to the roof. The only problem or more likely consequence is the temperature difference with an open to air tank. Much greater pressure when Hot and Sunny and much lower pressure when Cold & Freezing. Just a thought. I had considered buying one of those BIG domestic LPG tanks and fitting it to qa trailer. :lol:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi jsw hows america, bet you are counting the days :lol: 
I was intending to make a platform, put the tank on it with lid over it, that will keep the sun off it. the other two tanks are underneath so there shoudn't be make temp. difference. if the rv drove ok. then maybe fit another to the roof.

The only problem i could think of was the roof tanks back filling the lower ones but a non-return valve in the feed lines would fix that.

Wife was worried about hitting it, but as i pointed out a low bridge would have to take out the first aircon first, which would give us some warning unless i was driving like the clappers. :lol: 

Olley


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Olley 

A couple of thoughts. 
How would you fill the roof tank(s) and how would you select which tank was in use? 
No disrespect but I think it's a bad idea. If it were me I would prefer to lose a locker space rather than do this.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi scotjimland I wouldn't select which tank to fill, I have two at the moment and their is no way to select.

Each tank is fitted with a float valve bit like your toilet, when its approx. 80% full they cut the gas off, so you can't overfill them.

I would tee off the supply line to the other tanks from the filler, put a non-return valve in to the pipe feeding the upper tanks so they cannot back fill lower tanks, then fit a tee into the engine supply line (each tank has two pipes supply and fill) and put a non-return valve in the existing engine supply line before this tee so once again no back filling of lower tanks from upper can occur.

All LPG tanks are fitted with flow valve's so that if you where to remove or damage a pipe when there is lpg in them they cut the flow off, this is a safety feature.

The biggest risk i can see is going under a low bridge, and taking the tanks off, however i do not consider this a significant risk. I don't want to lose locker space, and the roof is one area which has room for them, I will make more enquirys, and if someone comes up with an overriding reason for not doing it, then i won't

Olley


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