# Banning overnight stays.



## 103286 (Mar 6, 2007)

With various towns in east England having already or planning to ban motorhomes from stopping in them,i have started a petition to the PM asking that councils be made to provide areas where legal motorhomes can stop overnight.The link is here... http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Overnights/


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

I have signed and posted this link on Wildcamping.
Thanks


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## annetony (May 1, 2005)

signed---lets hope it works



Anne


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Funny thing is that although both Mrs Grath & I both signed and received email confirmation showing our names added in the link provided.
When we look up the link in this thread we are not there!!!
When we also look up the link that I posted on Wildcamping, we are also not there.
Looked up the link in the email again and we are there
Strange, must be a delay???
UPDATE.
Yes there is a delay, but your name appears after a short while


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Good initiative.

Here is the text:

_We the undersigned respectfully ask that councils can provide stopping places or areas for the overnight stay of individual taxed and insured motorhomes.Many people like touring the UK in a home on wheels and the setting up of such stop over points might encourage them to visit towns and resorts they otherwise might not.This goverment has provided freedom to roam,freedom to stop and rest awhile whilst doing so would we are sure,prove popular._

The last sentence makes no sense to me.

I am afraid that yet again a petition has been written in somewhat less than correct English.

The writer of the petition is hoping that it will go to the highest echelons of government. 
It will be briefly glanced at then ignored, simply because it is difficult to read due to poor formatting.
Fact.

I know that I will suffer from a huge backlash and be accused of pedantry.

Informal use of language is OK here on a forum, even though us pedants get might get hot under the collar about it.

A petition to Number 10 must be written in the formal language of government otherwise it will be ineffective.

Sorry to throw a damp squib but I want €uropean-style aire facilities here in UK just as much as the rest of us do.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

I, for one, agree with you Pippin.

When that petition is glanced at, it will have about half a second in which to make an impression - alongside all the dozens of others that surely appear in the PM's office every day of the year.

*Nothing *should be left to chance if it is to merit a second glance.

It must be as near perfect in *every *aspect as it is possible to make it.

Sad we know, but a fact of life I fear.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

I understand what you are saying and you are quite right, but at least the guy/gal is doing something about it, so give him/her some encouragement please.
Thanks


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## HarleyDave (Jul 1, 2007)

Support is all well and good, but guidance and assistance - had it been sought - might have produced a more effective petition.

Now we have one that may not do its job (as well as it might) and this will reduce the impact a second, well formatted and written, petition might otherwise have had.

Pedants of the World - Unite!!

Cheers

Dave


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Grath said:


> I understand what you are saying and you are quite right, but at least the guy/gal is doing something about it, so give him/her some encouragement please.
> Thanks


OK . . . I thought Pippin had done so with his first and last sentences, and I agree entirely with both. 

Maybe we both should have been a bit more obvious in our support. :?

We were trying to help ensure Bacon's petition stands a chance of success, which is perhaps the best encouragement we could possibly give.


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## EJB (Aug 25, 2007)

My opinion of sending petitions to No 10, or anywhere else for that matter, via computer is that they are totally ignored. Even those that are presented at the door with thousands of signatures and even TV coverage don't do much good.
In this (Motorhome) business only a well organised campaign funded and publicised by the majority of the UK manufacturers and clubs will have any effect.
Besides our target should be local councils and not the government. 


When 5000 MHs drive past No 10 at 5MPH it 'might' produce a 30 second slot on the TV news.....but nothing else!


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Zebedee said:


> Grath said:
> 
> 
> > I understand what you are saying and you are quite right, but at least the guy/gal is doing something about it, so give him/her some encouragement please.
> ...


I had no doubts about your support, I just did not want others to be put off. Thanks.
Unfortunately, I don't think the petition wording can be altered, therefore we will have to go with it and offer what support we can.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

You will probably get the same response as >this one<

peedee


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## viator (May 1, 2007)

Who would fund such a facility?, the local council tax payers no doubt, Council treasuries are already paring everything to the bone,(lack of Westminster funding), anyway overnight stops already exist within and around towns and cities, namely caravan sites/parks. 
viator


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Grath said:


> I understand what you are saying and you are quite right, but at least the guy/gal is doing something about it, so give him/her some encouragement please.


They have. They've encouraged her to submit petitions which are of the highest standard in order to achieve the highest possible success.

It's not the taking part in petitions that counts - it's the winning, otherwise it's a well-meaning waste of time. I completely support the petition, but for the reasons already stated here, it stands no chance of being paper-sifted, far less having an impact of Government.

This isn't about pedantry - it's about effectiveness.

Dougie.


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

> ask that councils can provide stopping places or areas for the overnight stay of individual taxed and insured motorhomes.


Sorry- Pedants again! Surely Councils already "Can" provide....
I thought the idea was to require them to provide.....?


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Grath said:


> I had no doubts about your support, I just did not want others to be put off


You may think this harsh, but I hope others *are* put off, until they've done proper research - and taken advice and help if they need it - into how best to present their petition, before submitting it. Having a good idea is great, but the world is full of Good Ideas. Being able to present a persuasive argument for the Government to consider the idea, is the first hurdle to overcome.



Telbell said:


> Sorry- Pedants again! Surely Councils already "Can" provide....I thought the idea was to require them to provide.....?


Another good point. The people reading petitions will read what they say, not what they mean.

Personally, I think this is a good idea, and support it, but I won't be signing the petition.

Dougie.


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## Bagshanty (Jul 24, 2005)

This pathetic nastiness from British authorities is one reason why we spend most of our holiday time (and cash) abroad, where local authorities try to attract motorhomers not drive them away


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## EJB (Aug 25, 2007)

Many councils are already required by the government to provide 'travellers sites'.......but they don't!!!!


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

I just read the >> link posted above << which refers to HMG's reply to a similar petition made in 2007. I think it's a good reply, and simply says, "Sorry - we don't deal with this. Contact your local authority." That has to be accepted. There's no point in going into a shoe shop and asking for a pound of sausages, and then complaining that they a) didn't have any, and b) couldn't be bothered to get some in to sell you.

The final paragraph in the reply to the previous is to my mind, a helpful suggestion:-

 "With regards to height restrictions at local authority off-street car parks, height barriers are used to prevent unsuitable vehicles, such as heavy goods vehicles using car parks. Whilst the Government cannot comment on the merits of individual councils' polices, we believe that local authorities are acting within their legal powers to erect such barriers. *It is possible that councils may be prepared to review their policy on these barriers following representation from local communities*."

So there you go. If you want sausages, find out where the butchers is, formulate a succinct request, and ask away.

Dougie.


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

I think a top-down approach is not the way to go.
Central government could not care a fig for the concerns of motorhomers.

We, as individuals or small groups, should be targeting town councils - the bodies that actually own the land. 
It is they who would have to invest in aires facilities and who would eventually benefit from the income generated.
This income would be either directly into the councils coffers or indirectly as increased local trading, or a combination of both.

The campaign should also be taken to district and county councils as these bodies often also own the land and are increasingly responsible for parking control.

What is essential is that all of us take a unified approach in terms of objectives. 
Spell them out clearly and concisely and approach your local councillors with them. 
These are the people who are desperate to do something for their community, 
to be seen to be doing something and as a result climb the ladder into the next area of responsibility as a district or county councillor.

The original, maligned, petition contains the sentence:
_councils can provide stopping places or areas for the overnight stay of individual taxed and insured motorhomes._

As an example of obfuscation of message, surely all motorhomes are "individual" and whether they be taxed/insured is of no consequence to our request for aires facilities.

I think the allusion is to "travellers" in large groups of whom the authorities are rightly paranoid.

Any approach should not mention the problem of travellers directly.

Far better to stress that the majority of recreational motorhomers rarely want to stay more than a few nights in one place so it is simple to add a maximum three-night stay restriction.

Take Barmouth (Y Bermo) for example. 
There has been press coverage of the concern by locals that the prom has been disfigured by wall-wall parking of motorhomes.
Instead of railing directly against parking restrictions that are to be introduced to prevent it, 
why not make a case for the economic benefits and suggest that a less visually obtrusive parking area/aire be provided.
It could even be chargeable, we do not mind paying a nominal fee to park overnight!

Once aires start to be provided and the benefits to the local economy are seen, 
then neighbouring towns and areas will want to join in and not miss out.

That is the way to go - start local and build up.

One snag is that we seldom want to stay overnight in our own town/village so there is no incentive.
However, we are the ones with the local knowledge, contacts and influence - 
so do it for our fellow motorhomers in the hope that the provision will spread, for our benefit elsewhere!

Phew! That has exhausted me!


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Pippin,

Spot on.

Dougie.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

*Divide*

Divide and Conquer, same old story, and that is why we never win.  
Unlike the French whom stick together  
I do agree about the wording and that the grammar should have been checked, and I do note that most agree in principal.
I also think that no matter how good the petition was / is, it would still be chucked into the bin with little or no action  
But I do think that we all should support it and stick together :wink: 
But we are British and we won't and we won't win  
Divide and Conquer :wink:


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Viator wrote:

_anyway overnight stops already exist within and around towns and cities, namely caravan sites/parks. _

That's the point, for motorhomers to spend money in a place they must be able to get to it. 
Most caravan sites and parks are out in the sticks.
Tenters and caravanners have their cars available, motorhomers generally don't.

We must educate the authorities to the facts that motorhomers are not the same as other campers and have different needs.

Bagshanty wrote:

_This pathetic nastiness from British authorities is one reason why we spend most of our holiday time (and cash) abroad, where local authorities try to attract motorhomers not drive them away._

It is easy to make vitriolic and uninformed statements like that.
Unfortunately they are counterproductive when what we really need is positive action.

There is no pathetic nastiness by British authorities, only fear (of travellers) and lack of knowledge (of the local benefits) and ignorance (of the way it is done abroad).

As I said, let's be positive in our approach!


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Yes indeed Pippin.

Taking your "local" point a little further, I always think you stand a much better chance if you pick on someone with a vested interest of their own for supporting you - and not necessarily the same motives as yours. 8O

A bit of "sneaky" might not go amiss here.

For example, find a local councillor or MP whose Dad is a member of the local Chamber of Commerce. Not the top man or he will no longer be "hungry", but one who still aspires to the padded throne! :roll:

Then put together a carefully reasoned argument estimating the annual benefit to the town's shops and businesses if motorhomes were to be encouraged.

Realistic figures would be required, and the sums would have to add up as these people did not get where they are by being stupid!

*There has to be something in it for them (whoever "they" are) or we really have no chance.*

As ever, my slightly Machiavellian opinion only!

_(Machiavellianism - to manipulate others for personal gain.)_ 8) 8)


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: Divide*



Grath said:


> I also think that no matter how good the petition was / is, it would still be chucked into the bin with little or no action


So why tell us that it's important to encourage people? Why bother, if you've decided that failure is inevitable? Why not start another thread entitled "The Government's Cr*p And Won't Ever Listen And We're All Doomed" or similar?

You could then probably beat your own record for telling everyone here they're not listening as well, as per the Gas thread.

If you actually digest the comments made here, you'd perhaps understand a little better the difference between vitriolic criticism and constructive suggestion.

Perhaps.

Dougie.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

*Re: Divide*



asprn said:


> Grath said:
> 
> 
> > I also think that no matter how good the petition was / is, it would still be chucked into the bin with little or no action
> ...


Nasty nasty as I said, we never stick together  
Divide and Conquer


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

Another approch might be to i"slide in" the suggestion of a Motorhome Facility within a congratulatory letter to the Council.

I recently wrote to one council commending them on their attractive, clean & tidy state of their town and adding a paragraph....."By the way have you ever considered the benefits of allowing Motorhomers to "overnight " in certain areas....." etc etc

Awaiting reply but worth a try...


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

As I said Tellbell . . . . Machiavellian!!!  

It works.

You make people feel good.

They listen.


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Hi all,

Notwithstanding the sterling efforts of the OP to do something about this issue, I find myself agreeing with Pippin, ASPRN, and Zebedee on this.

SO.....

How about an MHF generic petition incorporating the points raised in this thread that can be printed off one all signatures have been received and sent to the local councillor in each district/region/parish council etc?

The economic benefits to the towns are all similar - 5 MH parking spaces for up to 2 nights max will potentially generate £xxx income to the local economy anually.

All we would need would be one nominated representative for each area to liaise with the councillor.

Secondly, how about approaching the supermarkets and asking them to designate 5 MH parking spaces in each carpark?

I would even be happy with a nominal 24 hour parking charge of less than a fiver if this would help sway their decision.

Any thoughts welcome?

David


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Congratulations David.

When can you start! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Zebedee,

"What's in it for me?" lol

David


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Seriously though..

We'd need

1.A way for the petition to take 'e'-signatures.

2. List of Council Authorities

3. Agreed wording of petition.

4. A MHF front page 'sticky'

Could we agree that all 29077 MHF members agree to the concept unless they opt out?

I think this needs Nuke's input, but I'd be happy to participate in getting it off the ground.

David


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

I'll draw it to his attention straight away David.

Can't anticipate his response, but no harm in asking!  

_(Not sure if he's watching today?)_


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Yes, Zebedee you are spot on. I am doing my research.

As an example.

We live in rural Welsh Wales. 
A bilingual society, or about 25% of it is.
What follows is not meant to be racist or linguistic, indeed I have learned the Language of Heaven and count myself as Welsh.

When I arrived here 30 years ago 
95% of the county councillors 
came from that 25% 
and probably 75% of those were farmers
of whom about 90% had campsites on their land.

Work out the percentage of non-campsite involved councillors if you can, but trying to establish (perceived) competing aires would not have had much chance of success!

Until I did some research the other day I had assumed that the situation was not much changed in those thirty years.

I was very wrong and the number of farming-connected councillors is now very low!
(The percentage of Welsh-speakers is going up - Cymru am Byth!)

So, I can be rather more positive about my campaign for local aires provision and can target councillors more accurately.
For example, those who appreciate just what tourism means to the local economy.

As said, do your homework and you have more chance of success.


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

To be honest, I am not certain that petitions with thousands of signatures are necessarily the right initial approach.
You might frighten them off with the prospect of 29,000 MHF motorhomes turning up!

Go for the personal touch first.


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## dragabed (May 24, 2008)

*banning overnight stays*

isn,t canterbury in the east .Well if thats anything to go on they would not be used very much if we had them .we have used this aire 15 times this year and the most vans we have seen onit is 5 and 3 of them were french


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

pippin said:


> Informal use of language is OK here on a forum, even though us pedants get might get hot under the collar about it.


That's "we pedants might get" ....

Dave


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## 96706 (Nov 13, 2005)

Canterbury is technically in the South East. I think the current problems are in Sufflok, particularly Aldeburgh & Southwold, although we do have a similar problem at Seaford (also in the South East),where Motorhome parking has also been banned.

So perhaps it's not just a Eastern problem, but one that will reach out to all other areas given time.

Possibly Pippin's point about contact at a Local level is a good one. However some Council's are much more responsive than others. 
Our own being one of 'others'.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

DABurleigh said:


> That's "we pedants might get" ....


 :lol:


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

**** said:


> Canterbury is technically in the South East. I think the current problems are in Sufflok, particularly Aldeburgh & Southwold, although we do have a similar problem at Seaford (also in the South East),where Motorhome parking has also been banned.
> 
> So perhaps it's not just a Eastern problem, but one that will reach out to all other areas given time.
> 
> ...


and ours, Peter


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## dragabed (May 24, 2008)

*banning overnight stays*

so what about bury st edmunds also underused


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Dragabed, your observations simply prove the point about the lack of aires in UK.

Because we do not expect there to be any we do not therefore look for them.

Catch 22 situation.

Exactly how many signposts are there leading one to the Canterbury aire?

We did not spot any as we drove through the city in August.

For an aire to be really useful it needs to be within easy walking distance of the town and well signposted. 

Being combined with a P&R so far out of town with the bus service ending at 20:00 makes it less than ideal.
Don't get me wrong, I think it is brilliant that Canterbury is at least recognising in part the needs of motorhomers.

Us/we pedants? I was being reverse pedantic!


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## dragabed (May 24, 2008)

*banning overnight stays*

then i don,t think you were looking were you where you were going they are on sighn pots and the the tarmac of the road and simple to find you also get free bus transport to the city for up to 5 people


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## carolsrig (Jul 12, 2007)

signed sealed and hopefully delivered.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

*About 50*

I have just had a quick look and I think that about 50 new signature's have been added today.
Good of you folks, well done, I think the author will be quite happy with that or I hope so.


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## 103286 (Mar 6, 2007)

Despite my grammar being faulty and despite the fact that my attempt is doomed to failure according to most,at least I seem to have started a debate and who knows,some of you might actually do something instead of just criticising those who've already tried.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Baconsdozen said:


> Despite my grammar being faulty and despite the fact that my attempt is doomed to failure according to most,at least I seem to have started a debate and who knows,some of you might actually do something instead of just criticising those who've already tried.


HI Baconsdozen,
I hope that you don't mind but I pasted your link on Wildcamping and you have picked up quite a few signatures from there.


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## 103286 (Mar 6, 2007)

Thanks for that.
After my 'welcome' I'll not be bothering to post here anymore.


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## THEPOET (May 1, 2007)

Hi Baconsdozen,

Great, I have signed, 92 at last count. 

Come on people, sign!!!

See my post re; Southwold. I wish people would stop the petty bickering and get behind someone who at least is trying. You ever know it might do some good.


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Baconsdozen, I am behind you all the way, as stated in my response to your opening post of this topic.

I think that what several of us have been struggling to say to you and others who have started petitions is that it takes only a little bit extra on the preparation of the presentation to make a huge difference in the effectiveness of them.

I try not to make destructive criticism (well, OK, sometimes in jest, but not this time) and hope that my comments are generally constructive, although I am prepared to admit that may not always be obvious.

I have learnt now always to scrutinise my posts very carefully several times using the "preview" function so that I can check them out in the form that they will actually apppear on the forum.
Only then will I press the "submit" button.

If you need any help in wording anything then please just ask away, by PM if you prefer.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Baconsdozen said:


> Thanks for that.
> After my 'welcome' I'll not be bothering to post here anymore.


You would be made most welcome on Wild, but give it chance there are some good people on here


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## homenaway (Jul 27, 2005)

*Re: banning overnight stays*



dragabed said:


> so what about bury st edmunds also underused


We stopped there for an afternoon last month - the only MH there and I'm not sure we would want to stay overnight as it's in the middle of a general carpark that's open all night. In fact it isn't signposted at all and we were just about to do a u-turn as its just before the height barrier for the main visitors' carpark when we spotted the marked bays. However we were pleased to make use of it and the hourly charge is the same as for cars 

Surprisingly there were no cars or skips parked in the motorhome bays as we've found in Dorset 

After a pleasant walk around the town we called in to the excellent Tourist information centre and wrote "Well done for being motorhome friendly" on the survey form :lol:

So if one council can make provision why not others? How did the MH parking at Bury St Edmunds come about ? Was there an enthusiastic councillor?

Steve


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## mangothemadmonk (Aug 6, 2006)

Done.

Johnny F


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## 96706 (Nov 13, 2005)

I would love a network of aires in the UK, but as I've said before on the forum somewhere: what would stop these being used by the less savoury "travellers"? How come the French aires aren't overrun by "travellers"? I can think of several existing car parks in Eastbourne which could be great aires but the council have already had problems with the influx of aforesaid communities and spent £££s evicting them after the local community has suffered by their presence, how would they police an aire's use? If you were Mr & Mrs Average living nearby would you support an aire with the knowledge that a band of p***kies are going to move in and desecrate your neighbourhood?

And no, I don't know what the answer is  

Mrs. D


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

For the difference in membership numbers, I think that there has been greater support for this petition on the Wildcamping forum.
Possibly it is because wildcampers would be more likely to use these facilities and Motorhome Facts members may be more likely to use campsites.
I can see no reason why not to support this petition regardless of what some may think of the grammar.
Come on guys & gals, offer some support.
Thanks


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## 101578 (Oct 28, 2006)

Signed it a while ago.
Think we should deliver the petition on a giant inflatable motorhome to stick outside No10. :lol:


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Grath said:


> I can see no reason why not to support this petition regardless of what some may think of the grammar.
> Come on guys & gals, offer some support.
> Thanks


If you have been around on the forums, here and some of the others long enough you will have possibly been there, done that, seen it all before. Even a number of magazines have taken up the fight, lobbying MPs and even gaining the support of some, all largely to no avail. There have been some successes and there have even been attempts to emulate the French Passion sites. Have a read of >this site< for the background and the latest.

peedee


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

and a reminder of the petition location

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Overnights/


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*over night parking*

I have Emailed Tesco to ask if we can park up over night with the managers permission to see if I can have this infomation official.
I and my friends have parked up (with the managers permission) at different times, as we had been told the Managing Director has a motorhome and is very aware of our needs.
They even took down a Barrier here in Whitstable Kent so we can get in to shop and park easier.
I will let you know if I get a reply.

In the mean time lets sign the petition for if nothing else it always lets the Goverment know what the ordinary man in the street wants, needs, and feels.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Overnights/


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## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

well an interesting thread, most of which has been discussed here on MHF in some shape or form in the past

As I see it, the biggest issue with trying any of the proposals i.e. approaching councils, approaching supermarkets etc is the one of travellers

Whatever facility is put in place may be misused by the travelling fraternity.

I am all for putting MHF behind a well thought out scheme with a chance of success but I think more thought needs to be put in first

My local town of Budleigh Salterton has the same issues mentioned in this thread, i.e. locals on the seafront causing a ruckus in the local press about mhs parking on the seafront and yet there is a lovely huge car park at the end of marine parade with at present no height barriers and this could be utilised and promoted as a way of gaining income (i.e. add a few facilities and charge a small overnight fee)

but the age old issue is if they added say a water tap and just a grey water drain off point then what will inevitably happen is one of the following:

a. A wildcamper turns up and decides to try and empty his toilet down the grey waste point.
b. Travellers move in and stay put for weeks

How do we around the basic issues ?


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*banning parking*

Right I dont know if this would be an answer but what if you collected a key from a nearby shop or Tourist Information Centre where the small charge could be paid.
They would then know who was going to use the Park that night.
hmmmmmmm would that work??? 8O


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

nukeadmin said:


> a. A wildcamper turns up and decides to try and empty his toilet down the grey waste point.


You think this is bad Nuke. :?

I've seen a bog cassette emptied down the fresh water drain, then the spout was shoved up around the fresh water tap to rinse it out. 8O 8O 8O

Unfortunately our great community is occasionally ruined by an animal like this - and of course we all get tarred with the same disgusting brush! :evil: :evil: :evil:


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## buttons (Dec 19, 2005)

Baconsdozen said:


> With various towns in east England having already or planning to ban motorhomes from stopping in them,i have started a petition to the PM asking that councils be made to provide areas where legal motorhomes can stop overnight.The link is here... http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Overnights/


This could sound a tad negative to some of you. I can fully understand and would endorse the need to be able to park in or near town centres, sea fronts and the like as cars are permitted to do. Some larger spaces allocated to larger vehicles shouldn't cause too much of a problem and an additional charge for the use of a larger space would be acceptable to most of us. This would also stop any resentment from car users as we are paying more for this extra space.

We would then have the freedom to visit towns and add to the local economy as car users and tuggers do.
When their visit is complete the cars leave and return to their hotels, tuggers return to their caravan sites for the night.
Or perhaps they could stay for the night also sleeping in the car park (aire) as motor homes do. 
I'm sure that the low cost accommodation would suit tugger's as much as motor homes. Young people in cars would love somewhere inexpensive to stay in the centre. Or would this local tax payer's cash be spent for the benefit of motor homes only. 
I travel a great deal in this country and have never had a problem staying in any town or village, "including both Southwold and Aldeburgh" and apart from the main bank holidays choice is plentiful. 
I would be interested to know why you have this idea that we should have free or cheap overnight parking paid for by local tax payers when everyone else has to pay the going rate?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"a. A wildcamper turns up and decides to try and empty his toilet down the grey waste point. 
b. Travellers move in and stay put for weeks 
How do we around the basic issues ?"

a. Non removable grid that doesn't accept solid waste and in a visible place.
b. Get the police to uphold the law to the benefit of the majority of the public rather than being politically-correct with those few who break it to the detriment of the law-abiding majority. Travellers move on in France before the 48hr point because they know they WILL be on the receiving end of strong-arm tactics if they don't, not because they suddenly become civilised south of the Channel.

Dave


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*banning parking*

*Travellers move on in France before the 48hr point because they know they WILL be on the receiving end of strong-arm tactics*

You sum that up nicely we are not hard enough in this country.
We would spend weeks getting a court order to remove such people.
Then the filth that they leave behind looks bad on us that just want to park up and enjoy ourselves.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

nukeadmin said:


> a. A wildcamper turns up and decides to try and empty his toilet down the grey waste point.
> b. Travellers move in and stay put for weeks
> How do we around the basic issues ?


Many of the aires we used in France this holiday have got an entry fee, paid in advance, at an automatic machine. Payment then lifts the barrier.

The exit barrier could be set up so that exit is by the same card that you used for entry. Anyone overstaying the period they have paid for - say 24 hours- would not be able to exit until they have paid again.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I suspect this would stop anyone wanting to set up camp for a long period there.

I wonder how many wild campers do empty their toilets down the grey waste drain ? The answer would be to provide a public loo in the car park with liftable drain lid for emptying toilets direct into the sewer. I realise that this is not always possible.

G


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

I was mulling such barrier thoughts yesterday, when I aimed for a picnic spot with delightful views on the Isle of Thanet (generally speaking a very motorhome-friendly forgotten corner of England, btw), only to be frustrated by a flimsy 2.3m high barrier, so we moved on and didn't buy lunch at the cafe there.

Now, that barrier wouldn't physically stop travellers for more than a couple of minutes. So I wondered if they do gain entry by means of damage, do the police THEN act?

Dave


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

DABurleigh said:


> I was mulling such barrier thoughts yesterday, when I aimed for a picnic spot with delightful views on the Isle of Thanet (generally speaking a very motorhome-friendly forgotten corner of England, btw), only to be frustrated by a flimsy 2.3m high barrier, so we moved on and didn't buy lunch at the cafe there.
> 
> Now, that barrier wouldn't physically stop travellers for more than a couple of minutes. So I wondered if they do gain entry by means of damage, do the police THEN act?
> 
> Dave


Not in Tewkesbury they don't. 8O

The travellers have undone half of the bolts so the barrier can be shoved up with a broom and swivelled to let their vans in underneath.

One particular barrier has been like it for at least three years, and has never (to my knowledge) even had the bolts put back in. 8O


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

So if barriers are in place to stop Travellers, but only succeed in denying the law-abiding public, they sound as well thought-out and effective as Dunblane gun laws.

I must be missing something, or are our authorities consistently stupid?

Dave


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

DABurleigh said:


> So if barriers are in place to stop Travellers, but only succeed in denying the law-abiding public, they sound as well thought-out and effective as Dunblane gun laws.
> 
> I must be missing something, or are our authorities consistently stupid?
> 
> Dave


Can't think of a suitable comment! 8O


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

That's what being a MOD does for you. You can think of just as many suitable comments as the rest of us, but can't be seen to commit them to print


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## dragabed (May 24, 2008)

*banning overnight stops*

travelling back from the shepton mallet show, we were tired and low on fuel so we stopped off at tesco just off the A14 at cambridge it was a sunday night and the store was closed so we parked in an out of the way corner on the far side of the car park stayed the night shoppped as soon as the store opened and filled up with diesel. on the wednesday of the same week we recieved a letter telling us not to park again or we would be prosicuted or clamped.we now shop at sainsbury and tesco have lost a 200 pound a week customer if we all did this, these towns and villagrs would soon realise our worth as the mayor of every french town does. so it may be a good idea to get your local chamber of comerce on board who in turn will speek to local councilors who pull the strings of the commitees who make the decisions and spend the funding allocated from central goverment and yes it is a long process but thats the way things happen in gb.and as well as all that i also disagree with tesco being able to obtain private details of customers via the DLVA


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## 107558 (Oct 10, 2007)

If we are to get "UK Aires" I believe there are two things we need to do:

1) Stand for election on the Local Council
2) When we win a seat, lobby and generally block/delay anything and everything until we get a suitable "Aire"

Once the Aire has been provided it needs to be strickly enforced. Anyone staying more that the prescribed time limit is towed away without a court order or other delaying tactic as they do with parking in London. If their MH or Caravan isn't claimed it's either sold or crushed. This would also apply to cars parking on the Aire (toads excepted) without a caravan to tow.

In reality, a Warden checking the site early morning,a couple of times during the day and early evening should be sufficient. They can call in the tow truck (there and then) from a local garage to remove the offender.

A fee of £5 per night ex EHU and a coin operated meter system for Water and EHU. These fees go towards the upkeep and "policing" of the Aire.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

DABurleigh said:


> That's what being a MOD does for you. You can think of just as many suitable comments as the rest of us, but can't be seen to commit them to print


Probably a few more Dave - truth be told!


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"also disagree with tesco being able to obtain private details of customers via the DLVA"

Frankly in GB you might as well regard your number plate as equivalent to your full name and address. This Government will sell your private information to any individual who presents a just cause (Labour loves any scam to increase funds for welfare and an increase in dependents to keep them in power). Principles matter little. The scheme is not policed; all that matters is that the cash registers keep ringing. 

Dave


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## 117716 (Oct 24, 2008)

*Take action to go with a decent petition..*

Try taking 5 or more thousand motorhomes through london on a monday morning to deliver the petition, get on the news!!! unless you are visible no one will take any notice of you/us and our needs /wishes. Choking the economics of the city for a few hours will definitly raise the interest levels of all in govt with any sense (how many fit the description?)


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

*Re: Take action to go with a decent petition..*



Indyvanagin said:


> Try taking 5 or more thousand motorhomes through london on a monday morning to deliver the petition, get on the news!!! unless you are visible no one will take any notice of you/us and our needs /wishes. Choking the economics of the city for a few hours will definitly raise the interest levels of all in govt with any sense (how many fit the description?)


yes, nice idea, but many of us would get a £200 "fine" for the London LEZ :roll: :x


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: Take action to go with a decent petition..*



bognormike said:


> yes, nice idea, but many of us would get a £200 "fine" for the London LEZ :roll: :x


It would work then Mike!! 

The government would rake in enough revenue to build Aires all over the country. 

Those of us lucky enough to have modern engines which escape the fine would truly appreciate your sacrifice - honest we would!! :lol: :lol: :wink: :wink:


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

I've been trying for a long time to get proper signs and easy methods of access put up for the dedicated motorhome parking in Oxford.

In principle the County Council ( who took over administration of the Redbridge Park and Ride facility on October 1st) are very willing to put up signs on the A34 and some means of getting through the barrier without having to park and walk a long way to find someone to open it. What they have said however is that no-one uses the parking. They are, even now, discussing what to do based on suggestions made on this forum.

Whenever we go past it is empty. I've only ever, in 20 years, seen 3 vans at the most. It could be because there are no sign posts to it but I put it on MHF some time ago and on other " places to park " sites so someone knows.

What they are totally opposed to doing however is allowing overnighting there. It is just over the road from the C&CC site but the main objection is local bylaws which do not permit it and the possible objections from residents of the houses around. There is a very good, extensive, travellers site hidden in the copse about 150 m up the road so I don't think that would be a problem. Frankly I doubt local residents would even notice and the C&CC site is never short of takers.

If you're coming to Oxford please use Redbridge - or it will go and it is the only one for motorhomes.

G


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## dragabed (May 24, 2008)

*banning overnight stays*

yes i agree about the 5000 vans and the charging but if the 5000 vans parked on or near to the start of the charging area this would bring the capital to a standstill and demonstraight our point and we could then march to downing street and deliver a petition just imagine the world wide press and the shame it would bring on a so called democracy which is only a demcracy when it suits the likes of manleson and his cronies


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## Minerva (May 22, 2006)

Done 

Thinking positive they may do something :lol: 

Bill


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

*Re: banning overnight stays*



dragabed said:


> yes i agree about the 5000 vans and the charging but if the 5000 vans parked on or near to the start of the charging area this would bring the capital to a standstill and demonstraight our point and we could then march to downing street and deliver a petition just imagine the world wide press and the shame it would bring on a so called democracy which is only a demcracy when it suits the likes of manleson and his cronies


I doubt this would have the slightest effect other than to confirm the views of many of the public that MHers are effectively free-loaders and want parking without responsibility.

The people who have the power to set aside land for aires etc and to permit overnight parking are not working at national government level, they are local government officials - eg your next door neighbour perhaps or the owner of a flat on the seafront at XXXX [ insert name of seaside resort here]

Much more effective to chip away at local government level by pointing up the advantages for - some, not all- towns of providing such parking.

It's not Mr Brown et al who produce bylaws preventing overnighting !

G


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## buttons (Dec 19, 2005)

JQL said:


> If we are to get "UK Aires" I believe there are two things we need to do:
> 
> 1) Stand for election on the Local Council
> 2) When we win a seat, lobby and generally block/delay anything and everything until we get a suitable "Aire"
> Once the Aire has been provided it needs to be strickly enforced. Anyone staying more that the prescribed time limit is towed away without a court order or other delaying tactic as they do with parking in London. If their MH or Caravan isn't claimed it's either sold or crushed. This would also apply to cars parking on the Aire (toads excepted) without a caravan to tow.In reality, a Warden checking the site early morning,a couple of times during the day and early evening should be sufficient. They can call in the tow truck (there and then) from a local garage to remove the offender.A fee of £5 per night ex EHU and a coin operated meter system for Water and EHU. These fees go towards the upkeep and "policing" of the Aire.


Some of these posts make me smile if nothing else. 
Could I refer you to my earlier post.......


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## buttons (Dec 19, 2005)

*Re: banning overnight stops*



dragabed said:


> we stopped off at tesco just off the A14 at cambridge stayed the night. on the wednesday of the same week we recieved a letter telling us not to park again or we would be prosicuted or clamped.


Be grateful that JQL wasn't on the Cambridge council, you could have been towed away and crushed for such abuse of parking regulations.


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## 107088 (Sep 18, 2007)

I join in this debate with a certain trepidation, since I am, frankly unlikely to wildcamp, ( mainly due to the physical size of my vehicle) however, I would like to put forward a point or three regarding wildcamping as a concept, as possibly viewed by the non motorhoming members of society.

Points 


(i) Local Authorities, and the elected officials therein, regardless of their peronal business interests, are there to represent the best interest of the local population ( in theory, in practice of course, they're all politician, and, consequently, inherantly untrustworthy). Its the local population that elects them, not a motorhoming section of the public which lives ( possibly ) miles away, even in another country. Consequently, if the locals are not persuaded that motorhomers will significantly increase their income or earning potentials, then Aires, Parking places etc, will not be high on the Councillors priority list.

(ii) Many non motorhomers see a motorhome as an expensive toy, a frivilous vehicle which is used by, apparently wealthy section of the country, who are willing to pay for the vehicle and arent willing to pay for the facilitie that they wish provided. 

(iii) If the Local council suddenly stumped up, a considerable amount of the local community tax to provide parking, toilet emptying and other stuff for a small number of people, they probably wouldnt stay councillors for long. 

(iv) In Europe, hisorically, theres an acceptance of the use of Aires, and other Parking facilities, due, possibly to the distances to travel. In the Uk, we havent every bothered with that, so in order to provide these places, a complete change in attitude is required, not with the councils, but with residents. 

(v) People generally see motorhomes as a camping vehicle, like caravans, and to them, if a caravanner can park up in a camp site, then why cant a motorhomer? 


None of these views or points is necessarily accurate, nor factual, depending on the individual point of view, but I just reckon its a steep hill to climb, and it may be useful to discover exactly how much the local economy increases in ,say, France, when an Aire is full, or newly installed. 

If this evidence could be gained, then this would provide factual evidence to increase economic benefit to having motorhomes parked for free, instead of just presuming so, in todays society proof of income increase is esential to convert the ( apparently) unconvertable.

Me personally, I have difficulty in supporting a propsition which I consider to be something of a cheek......provide me with somewhere safe to park, free, or nearly free of charge, so I can persue my hobby.

So, I shall now duck, and retreat in an orderly fashion.


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## buttons (Dec 19, 2005)

Not always the case bandaid but I totally 100% agree with everything that you have written.


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## 107088 (Sep 18, 2007)

buttons said:


> Not always the case bandaid but I totally 100% agree with everything that you have written.


Blimey, thank you, I was expecting severe chastisement, and possibly a good spanking....which isnt necessarily a bad thing.

incidentally, I would be upset if I had 100% agreement, as that would make life very boring, sometimes however, I think we need to understand the point of view of other, non motorhoming people.


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## carprus (Jun 22, 2008)

Minerva said:


> Done
> 
> Thinking positive they may do something :lol:
> 
> Bill


Good shout , never seen so many negative people ........if you don't sign you cannot moan at a later date.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

bandaid said:


> and possibly a good spanking....which isnt necessarily a bad thing.


We try to please, Bandy.  

The formidable Mrs Zeb is on her way as I type - complete with whip, wellies _and a freshly pulled leek_! 8O 8O

(Don't ask - you really don't want to know about these ancient Welsh customs.) 8O 8O


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## 107088 (Sep 18, 2007)

If she's bringing the Leek, I dont care about Welsh customs......I'll have lie down now, to prepare myself.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

nukeadmin said:


> but the age old issue is if they added say a water tap and just a grey water drain off point then what will inevitably happen is one of the following:
> 
> a. A wildcamper turns up and decides to try and empty his toilet down the grey waste point.


 I have been wilding for quite a few years now (and I use campsites quite frequently as I use my M/H every second weekend) however I have never seen or known of anybody emptying their toilet down a grey water drain or any other inappropriate place.
The wilders that I know would empty their toilet in a public convenience and flush properly afterwards.
A couple of years ago we and a couple of friends of ours were wilding at the station car park in Betwesycoed (this is very similar to a French aire) and a Snowdonia Ranger accused us of emptying our cassette in the hedge. Luckily the head ranger whom I have chatted to quite a few times, realized that the other Ranger was overzealous and apologized for his inappropriate accusations and told us that we were welcome any time as long as only for one night.
It probably does happen that some people empty in totally inappropriate locations, but as a leading member of Wildcamping, I can honestly say that I do not know or have heard of anybody doing this.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Zebedee said:


> nukeadmin said:
> 
> 
> > a. A wildcamper turns up and decides to try and empty his toilet down the grey waste point.
> ...


This is terrible and I completely agree with you!


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## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

Grath, not sure if you know my mhing history but i was a full timer myself for over 2 years and in my time I wild camped quite often and I have seen some sorry sights.

Some (and they are in the minority) wildcampers will do things that most of us would never do. I have seen excrement on top of drains that had holes that were obviously far too small to allow anything other than liquid to pass through, I have seen people walk out of motorhomes and urinate on the floor outside and walk back in. I once met a motorhomer who had a claim to fame of never having used a campsite for over a year and who regaled me with a tale of him going into restaurants with his wife with his toilet cassette in a holdall, ordering a small meal and after their meal was concluded paying the bill and emptying his cassette in the restaurant toilet on the way out !!!!

for every 100 people out there who do the right thing there will be 1 that doesn't its a simple fact of life. Unfortunately the councils will see the bad side of it and so we need a superb case to present to ensure even a limited chance of success.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

nukeadmin said:


> Grath, not sure if you know my mhing history but i was a full timer myself for over 2 years and in my time I wild camped quite often and I have seen some sorry sights.
> 
> Some (and they are in the minority) wildcampers will do things that most of us would never do. I have seen excrement on top of drains that had holes that were obviously far too small to allow anything other than liquid to pass through, I have seen people walk out of motorhomes and urinate on the floor outside and walk back in. I once met a motorhomer who had a claim to fame of never having used a campsite for over a year and who regaled me with a tale of him going into restaurants with his wife with his toilet cassette in a holdall, ordering a small meal and after their meal was concluded paying the bill and emptying his cassette in the restaurant toilet on the way out !!!!
> 
> for every 100 people out there who do the right thing there will be 1 that doesn't its a simple fact of life. Unfortunately the councils will see the bad side of it and so we need a superb case to present to ensure even a limited chance of success.


HI Nuke, that is terrible and having just finished my evening meal (well it nearly came back) and I guess that it probably does go on, however I do chat to a lot of wilders and most are quite desent people and as you know, I am a heavy poster on Wild and I do go to meets and I can honestly put my hand on heart and say that I have never seen those sort of things and if I did, I most certainly would say something to them.
As you say, there is always 1 that will spoil it for all


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## THEPOET (May 1, 2007)

Just a further thought.......SIDT posts elsewhere with a photo taken at dawn on Marine Parade Dover, a place many M'homer's know well as a stopover when travelling on the ferries. Staying overnight for early ferries and viccy verca returning from the continent. 

The parking is free!!! after what 6 6.30pm till 8am the following day, its safe, even patrolled by our finest boys in blue without problem. Does'nt appear to get abused, unless someone can provide examples.

So it begs the question ..... why can't other councils follow Dover's lead?

Just a thought......


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

THEPOET said:


> The parking is free!!! after what 6 6.30pm till 8am the following day, its safe, even patrolled by our finest boys in blue without problem. Does'nt appear to get abused, unless someone can provide examples.


We've never stayed there but I often wonder what the people who live in the flats on Marine Parade think of it and if they have ever tried to get parking there stopped. I think I'd be fairly unchuffed if I'd spent a lot of money buying a sea view to find it constantly blocked by a line of motorhomes, however quiet and orderly the occupants were. I imagine there is a fair amount of movement and engine noise as people come off and go to ferries 24 /7.

G


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Marine Parade


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## Rislar (Aug 16, 2008)

Grath said:


> Marine Parade


Very good, i'll log that one for my travels


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

It may be worth following the advice of Graham Hadfield here:
http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=13559&posts=8

Graham (who I believe used to be MHF-er) has a wealth of experience in gathering info about Local Authorities who provide parking for Motorhomes (see www.motorhomefriendlyparking.co.uk-a useful site)

He emphasises the importance of targetting on a LOCAL level and not National, citing the reasons for so doing.


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## buttons (Dec 19, 2005)

THEPOET said:


> a photo taken at dawn on Marine Parade Dover, a place many M'homer's know well as a stopover when travelling on the ferries. Staying overnight for early ferries and viccy verca returning from the continent. The parking is free!!! after what 6 6.30pm till 8am the following day, its safe, even patrolled by our finest boys in blue without problem. Does'nt appear to get abused, unless someone can provide examples.So it begs the question ..... why can't other councils follow Dover's lead?
> Just a thought......


Just a thought, is this parking restricted to motorhomes only or is it open to all ferry users..........?


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

buttons said:


> THEPOET said:
> 
> 
> > a photo taken at dawn on Marine Parade Dover, a place many M'homer's know well as a stopover when travelling on the ferries. Staying overnight for early ferries and viccy verca returning from the continent. The parking is free!!! after what 6 6.30pm till 8am the following day, its safe, even patrolled by our finest boys in blue without problem. Does'nt appear to get abused, unless someone can provide examples.So it begs the question ..... why can't other councils follow Dover's lead?
> ...


Anybody can park there.
When we were there in August there were about 6 or 7 M/Hs and lots of space to park.
I think you have to be gone by 0900 hrs or there abouts


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

*parking over night in Tescos*

Well!!!
I sent an Email to Tesco's Head office asking if we could (with the managers permission) stop over night.
Now they dont say no defiantly not !!!
Their Reply is:-

Dear Ms Nye,

Thank you for your email.

This decision would be down to the manager of the store.

I would advise you to contact the store concerned and speak to the manager.

Thank you for contacting Tesco.

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us at [email protected] quoting TES5699074X.

Kind Regards

Valerie Smith
Customer Service Manager
Tesco Customer Service

So it is down to each store and whether the manager says Yes so thats why we and a few friends have been able to do it.


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

As I say



> the importance of targetting on a LOCAL level and not National


 :lol: :lol:


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