# Schengen rules enforcement?



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

This not about Brexit!!!!


Does anyone the definitive legal answer to this situation - no opinions nor guesswork please.





The current Schengen rules allow free transit within the Schengen Area.


However, if one stays more than 90 days in any one country one is required to 'Register' in that country.


Scenario:


One has entered the Schengen area, travelled around and for some reason stayed more than 90 days in one country. (Difficult to prove I know, but assume there is evidence.)


One leaves Schengen, from a country where one has been for less than 90 days, but the evidence of overstaying in the other country is available.


Who, if anyone, has the right to detain/prosecute one for the overstay?


Does the Schengen agreement make provision for this situation? If so who does it authorise and under what laws?


Geoff


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

I think you will have to send this request to Sanchez-Bordona European Court of Justice advocate general who seems to be as infallible as the Pope.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I looked into this in some detail some time ago and all I could find was evidence of several prosecutions and heavy fines when the offender was caught in whichever country they were caught in. None of the accounts said how long they had been in that particular country just that they were prosecuted but the penalty varied. Some countries are stricter than others it seems with fines ranging from 500-1000 Euros with immediate deportation on payment of said fine and your record stamped which could hinder re-entry. I am not sure of the circumstances where and how the offenders were caught but presumably unless your picked up for something else while on the move its likely to be at your port of departure from the zone. As your clocked in and clocked out but free to roam while within this seems the most likely scenario so it would be most likely in most of our cases to be France at the border so it would be down to the French to decide what to do with you.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

In our case we have Spanish NIEs and so can stay in Spain as long as we like, in which case the Schengen clock doesn't start ticking till we leave Spain and enter another Schengen country where we haven't applied to stay. 

If you are legally resident in Poland surely the same applies to you Geoff.

Never the less your question is an interesting one and raises a number of question and possibilities. Presumably if the Schengen countries find they want to monitor Brits more closely if future, for any reason, they'd have to introduce new Non-EU passport holders lanes for people, vehicles and passengers arriving from the UK at EU entry points to clock them in?


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

erneboy said:


> In our case we have Spanish NIEs and so can stay in Spain as long as we like, in which case the Schengen clock doesn't start ticking till we leave Spain and enter another Schengen country where we haven't applied to stay.
> 
> If you are legally resident in Poland surely the same applies to you Geoff.
> 
> Never the less your question is an interesting one and raises a number of question and possibilities. Presumably if the Schengen countries find they want to monitor Brits more closely if future, for any reason, they'd have to introduce new *Non-EU passport holders lanes* for people, vehicles and passengers arriving from the UK at EU entry points to clock them in?


Are there any more passport controls?
We are close to the Polish boarder and have the (Zoll) Customs cars patrolling this side and in Poland, I expect other countries have the same and thats who could stop you and control the passports.
thats probably not helpful but keeps the thread alive. :smile2:


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

erneboy said:


> In our case we have Spanish NIEs and so can stay in Spain as long as we like, in which case the Schengen clock doesn't start ticking till we leave Spain and enter another Schengen country where we haven't applied to stay.
> 
> If you are legally resident in Poland surely the same applies to you Geoff.
> 
> Never the less your question is an interesting one and raises a number of question and possibilities. Presumably if the Schengen countries find they want to monitor Brits more closely if future, for any reason, they'd have to introduce new Non-EU passport holders lanes for people, vehicles and passengers arriving from the UK at EU entry points to clock them in?


Your passport is already scanned at the port. You are logged into Schengen as soon as you enter and of course logged out as soon as you leave.

There is no escape! For you Tommy zeee over staying in Spain is over!! (Well not you clearly but the rest of us, sadly)


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Unless you're "picked up" for something else, then it won't be until you leave the Schengen area and your passport is checked / scanned that your overstay in the Schengen area is detected. It doesn't matter that you may have only been in the last country a few days - the entire stay in the Schengen area is considered. You can be fined and your passport stamped to record the overstay and you can be required to obtain a visa before revisiting. It is therefore the responsibility of the border force authorities in the country that you are exiting to check passports for Schengen overstays. Apparently though some of the southern European countries in Schengen are more relaxed about enforcing these rules than those in the north.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Just in case you think he is joking or wrong, take the time to read through this;

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/consequences-of-overstaying-in-schengen-area/

You have been warned.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

erneboy said:


> In our case we have Spanish NIEs and so can stay in Spain as long as we like, in which case the Schengen clock doesn't start ticking till we leave Spain and enter another Schengen country where we haven't applied to stay.
> 
> *If you are legally resident in Poland surely the same applies to you Geoff.
> *
> Never the less your question is an interesting one and raises a number of question and possibilities. Presumably if the Schengen countries find they want to monitor Brits more closely if future, for any reason, they'd have to introduce new Non-EU passport holders lanes for people, vehicles and passengers arriving from the UK at EU entry points to clock them in?


There are some interesting and serious points coming out from this discussion.

The scenarios below are not hypothetical as they could be real for me/us.

I will start with Alan's point (emboldened above)

I agree a 'Resident' of any Schengen country has the right to reside in that country indefinitely but, as far as I understand, only has the right to travel in other Schengen countries for 90 days, albeit there are few checks within Schengen.

I am very unsure what happens to a Schengen country legal resident,( but not Schengen passport holder) who goes outside Schengen and re-enters, but not into the country of Residency. Does their Residency get recorded? Does the passport get recorded(as per Barry's post), and with or without the Residency record?

If then one stays within Schengen for more than 90 days, including, or not, one's country of Residence, what do the authorities do if one is leaving Schengen again, but not from country of Residency? Has one in the records overstayed 90 days in Schengen?

Maybe Alan has some practical experience as a Resident of Spain of how the system works in practice when he has left for Ireland, although he may have gone direct to ROI and crossed by land into NI, in which situation he had never lft Schengen till he reached NI with no crossing checks.

Seems to me at the moment like a minefield. And as I said in my OP this is the current situation regardless of Brexit, because it could apply to anyone going to e.g. Morrocco, Turkey etc.

I await your learned and experienced replies.

Geoff


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

What if you had dual nationality with your country of residence?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I'd say your minefield remark covers it Geoff. 

I can't foresee circumstances where we'd fall foul of Schengen rules. If we needed to explain our movements we would be rather uncertain since we have no need to keep records. We travel by road which I don't think is methodically recorded. We could say we were in Spain till a month or two ago. I don't see that anybody would bother to question that or even be able to in any reasonably convenient way. It's possible I'm sure but there'd need to be some imperative for them to bother. I think.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

JanHank said:


> What if you had dual nationality with your country of residence?


This would seem the most obvious choice in fact I would be jumping at that chance if I were you Geoff. As far as I am aware duel citizenship is allowed in Poland. You live there so why not just get a Polish Passport and you can avoid all the effects of this Brexit nonsense and never have to worry about it. You will have the prized "Free Movement". Can you and Basia adopt me please if you do so I Can get one?

All I know is third country nationals are recorded in and out of Schengen and 90 days is your limit. There appears to be no way around it.


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

What happens if you leave the UK a non shengen state to return to a third Eu country which is in shengen your passport is checked in the first country but not again how would you prove you have been in the country of your residence if over 90 days when you return to the UK


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

bilbaoman said:


> What happens if you leave the UK a non shengen state to return to a third Eu country which is in shengen your passport is checked in the first country but not again how would you prove you have been in the country of your residence if over 90 days when you return to the UK


I doubt you'd be expected to. In the unlikely event that it came up it would be up to whoever was making the allegation that you'd broken the rules to prove that you had, which would be next to impossible.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

JanHank said:


> What if you had dual nationality with your country of residence?


Not always easy to obtain Jan.

In Poland one has t be resident for 10 years and do a language test.

In Andorra it is 20 years - and I do not think they grant it posthumously.:wink2:


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

nicholsong said:


> Not always easy to obtain Jan.
> 
> In Poland one has t be resident for 10 years and do a language test.
> 
> In Andorra it is 20 years - and I do not think they grant it posthumously.:wink2:


Not what I just read Geoff.
Nothing else to do but to marry her me thinks.😄


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I *think* you'd come under 
1. You have to live continuously in Poland for at least 3 years, your stay is based on an establishment permit, an EC residence permit if you are considered as a long-term resident or based on a permanent residence permit - by that we mean having a regular income in Poland. Legal income.

_Your pension is legal income_.

Unless you don't have an establishment permit.:frown2:

https://www.polandunraveled.com/get-polish-citizenship/


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

erneboy said:


> I doubt you'd be expected to. In the unlikely event that it came up it would be up to whoever was making the allegation that you'd broken the rules to prove that you had, which would be next to impossible.


So the problem is solved if you become a resident of an Shengen country dont enter that country without entering an another Shenghen country first you can stay in other any other Shengen country as long as you like:smile2:


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

bilbaoman said:


> So the problem is solved if you become a resident of an Shengen country dont enter that country without entering an another Shenghen country first you can stay in other any other Shengen country as long as you like:smile2:


Er, thats all double dutch to me, can I have it in diagram please?:frown2:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

bilbaoman said:


> So the problem is solved if you become a resident of an Shengen country dont enter that country without entering an another Shenghen country first you can stay in other any other Shengen country as long as you like:smile2:


Do you think so? I doubt it.


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

IT shows that the law is not enforcable if you are a resident of any any Shengen country you can spend as much time as you like in any Shengen country because the Shengen area is like one country so the 90 day rule cannot be enforced


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

There has been a record number of applications for Irish Passports thats for sure. There was a movement sometime ago which actually started in Brussels for UK citizens to retain their EU Citizenship post Brexit and its still ongoing. https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...tion-on-eu-citizenship-after-brexit-1-5620660

Petition here. https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative

It was originally tabled by Charles Goerens back in 2016 who a lot of remainers including myself contacted and then supported by Guy Verhofstadt and backed by the commission. I doubt it will come to anything but who knows? Personally I think it should only be available to those who voted to remain, of course no Brexiteer would want to apply for it surely would they?


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

I would not sign anything that that Luxembourg clown started and i voted remain


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

bilbaoman said:


> IT shows that the law is not enforcable if you are a resident of any any Shengen country you can spend as much time as you like in any Shengen country because* the Shengen area is like one country so the 90 day rule cannot be enforced*


I would like to think that is true , but citation please.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I would have thought that if there was a good reason for tracing anyone's movements around Europe it could be done. Though I think it unlikely that any country would do it just to check immigration status.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

The buyer of our Hobby we sold last year has been flashed speeding in Spain. The registered fine came to my address in France. So if theres money involved they ccan find you.


Ray.


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

At present no Shengen country can positvely say who is in their country yes if you are in your car and are identified as the driver or use bank cards but if you use cash they cant trace you.Possible the next step will be to micro chip all shengen citizens with micro chips and place readers at every border


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I'd expect the UK to be first to do that the way things are going.

Tracing a avehicle by it's registration is very much simpler than establishing a person's movements over three months.


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

No problem in Uk you have to pass through a border unless you are illegal which is a problem in all countries


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

bilbaoman said:


> At present no Shengen country can positvely say who is in their country yes if you are in your car and are identified as the driver or use bank cards but if you use cash they cant trace you.Possible the next step will be to micro chip all shengen citizens with micro chips and place readers at every border


Chipping still requires close examination - ask any dog owner what happens when they try to leave or enter the UK.

The EU might of course insist on micro chipping for any citizens of "Third Worl Countries" as the UK may be classified, before they can enter the Schengen Promised Land.... Much easier to chip the errant Brits wanting to enter the EU rather than the 560 million who currently live in the EU. That way it saves roughly 500 million chips.


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

They will probably employ people in yellow jackets to slow the traffic so they ca get close the data will then be sent by their new sat system as it as now got spare capacity


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

They dont need to monitor the movements of people from Schengen countries because they are in Schengen and the single market. You can move around as much as you like, thats the whole point. Its a piece of cake for them to monitor us though as your passport will be logged on entry and exit as it is now for anyone coming in from a third country. There is always the chance you could get pulled over by the police. Someone on another forum did recently (Romania I think) and they pulled out a tablet and knew his entry details, vehicle details etc in seconds apparently.


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

But the 90 day rule applies if you live in schengen you cannot stay in another schengen country more than 90 days without registering in that country so really this no free movement


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

bilbaoman said:


> But the 90 day rule applies if you live in schengen you cannot stay in another schengen country more than 90 days without registering in that country so really this no free movement


I believe in most countries (possibly not France) you are required to report your presence and register but you are indeed allowed to stay in one country beyond that as an EU citizen. Of course as motorhomers its unlikely you would spend more than three months in one country anyway but as tourists and EU Citizens I doubt any of us would have been on the radar anyway. You are of course free to live and work where ever you like within the EU so it is free movement with a requirement to register if you stay for longer than three months. Its not the same 90 day rule that applies to third countries from outside of the EU which is what the UK will be where 90 days is your lot then you have to leave.


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## salomon (Apr 20, 2011)

barryd said:


> I believe in most countries (possibly not France) you are required to report your presence and register but you are indeed allowed to stay in one country beyond that as an EU citizen. Of course as motorhomers its unlikely you would spend more than three months in one country anyway but as tourists and EU Citizens I doubt any of us would have been on the radar anyway. You are of course free to live and work where ever you like within the EU so it is free movement with a requirement to register if you stay for longer than three months. Its not the same 90 day rule that applies to third countries from outside of the EU which is what the UK will be where 90 days is your lot then you have to leave.


It depends where you are resident. As an Andorran resident, I will always leave Schengen from a non Andorran country. I have a British passport. As an Andorran resident I have Schengen residency rights ie 90 days in any country. But. I also have indefinite rights to say in France, Spain and Portugal without the need to register. Why , I dont know. There are many arrangements with work permits so I assume it stems from there.
There are known issues with Andorran residents with non EU passports arriving in Europe. It requires entry points to know the rules if Andorran residency...there was a problem at Frankfurt airport a few years ago with an American citizen I think.
Most people would choose to arrive via France ir Spain which is less problematic.
I will let you know how it works or not post Brexit. Still a few years to run until I can have an Andorran passport:frown2:


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

The only two countries that have had true free movement in the EU are the UK and Ireland where no Eu citizens are forced to register after 90 days both non Schengen countries


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

bilbaoman said:


> The only two countries that have had true free movement in the EU are the UK and Ireland where no Eu citizens are forced to register after 90 days both non Schengen countries


Well it just goes to show then that the issue of free movement that so many Brexiteers had is down to our own governments immigration policies not those bestowed upon us by the EU. As you have pointed out, free movement is not quite as free as people seem to think it is but none of this changes the fact that post Brexit 90 days is our limit in Europe and registering or making your presence known is not an option and neither is moving to another EU country.


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## powerplus (Oct 6, 2014)

hi from sunny portugal

at the moment im looking into non-habitual residency and it does seem that it would make things easy for us but things are never that easy

and im sure there will be something that makes it not so simple

barry

https://www.livinginportugal.com/en/moving-to-portugal/tax-regime-for-non-habitual-residents/


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## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-news/etias-visa-how-will-it-affect-uk-citizens

Some interesting info on this web page. Looks like the Estia (from 2021) is going to tighten up the EU borders a lot.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

HermanHymer said:


> https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-news/etias-visa-how-will-it-affect-uk-citizens
> 
> Some interesting info on this web page. Looks like the Estia (from 2021) is going to tighten up the EU borders a lot.


Yes it will. I think those who are thinking of winging it and over staying should take note.

_"Obtaining an ETIAS visa to travel to Europe will not be optional. It will be highly regulated. Airlines, ferry firms, train operators or coach companies will check that travellers have a valid ETIAS visa before departure. All operators will be required to verify, "that travellers are in possession of a valid travel authorisation" Without a valid ETIAS, the traveller will not be able to board their transport to Europe.

If a British person travels to a Schengen country without an ETIAS visa, they will not be allowed to enter the country. The EU said: "at the request of the authorities competent to carry out the border checks, the carriers shall be obliged to return the third country nationals to the third country from which they were transported or to the third country which issues the travel document.

In 2021 UK citizens who wish to visit Schengen member countries will be able to do so with the ETIAS visa waiver and for stays of up to 90 days."_

The only thing that is in doubt is the reference to 2021 as if there is no deal and we crash out in March this year the 90 day limit will be effective immediately.

Of course with all these checks and the nightmare chaos of trying to get four million lorries through Dover each year with customs checks which we currently do not have how long are we going to be sitting in a queue on the motorway to even get to France? As far as I can tell apart from some deal with a fake ferry company with no ships and a few lorries doing a practice run this morning there has been absolutely no preparation for such an outcome.

What a fecking shambles.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Re ETIAS visa;

Is not this tightening up of the borders EXACTLY what the UK sought during CaMorons rapid tour around EU capitals ?

That was refused as the borders must stay open as a fundamental part of the EU Constitution....

Just a thought to ponder....


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

As i read it wether the UK is in or out of the EU ETIAS will apply in 2021 i assume the it will the same for the irish as they are not in Schengen.and cannot join unless the UK does as this would mean a hard border with the UK.


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## powerplus (Oct 6, 2014)

hi all
things have already started here in Portugal

the police were here in Armacao de Pera today looking at some of the very longterm vans 

some have been here for years, i don't know if they were interested in people overstaying but definitely interested in the vans and took logbooks away with them

they also took pictures of some vans and their number plates where no owners were about they were not just british registered 1 was dutch 1 was spanish

watch this space

barry


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

You don't think this is just a regular purge Barry like turfing all the campers off the car park?


Ray.


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## powerplus (Oct 6, 2014)

hi ray

i wandered if you would read this

i think you may be right but the campsite guy said that things are getting more strict 

barry


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## salomon (Apr 20, 2011)

powerplus said:


> hi all
> things have already started here in Portugal
> 
> the police were here in Armacao de Pera today looking at some of the very longterm vans
> ...


Its been going on for a while with French registered vehicles. We have many friends here ( SW France) who have portuguese heritage and still have family homes there. They spend a lot of time in Portugal and drive down. Many have been fined for " not re registering a vehicle ". Vehicles have the same rules as people...90 days. And they can be counted fairly easily.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Friends neighbours in Normandy had several vehicles sort of abandoned and in disrepair on their land and all UK registered. But they had never moved for years.

Plod turns up last summer when the owners are not there and remove all the license plates. 

No more news or visits but we guess someone must have complained and plod needed to respond.


Ray.


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