# Sexual harassment at work



## raynipper

Like many latest vendettas that have surfaced recently, I fully believe some politicians feel they are above the law.
Now we have a Tory MP who is being taken to task because he asked his secretary to buy a couple of sex toys? Is this harassment?
I think it was Ed Balls and Yvette Cooper who were accused of ordering sex videos on MPs expenses. I guess thats OK then as who was harassing who??.

Ray.


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## aldra

Difficult 

She could have said no 

And I’m wondering why she didn’t 

He called her something tits and again she didn’t tackle that either 

Once I was trapped in a corner by a bishop, yes I have class, who was trying to put his tongue in my mouth 

And to be fair I was more concerned that God didn’t notice on his behalf 

He’d put us up in a hotel , breakfast the next day 

And I steered clear of him 

In my case his goodness outweighed his iniquity 

We had nowhere to go , it was late and we had three kids

And he stood there and said God is Good 

And put us up in a hotel absolutely free 

I don’t remember him from trying to corner me , well yes I do 

But mostly I remember him for God is Good 

Sandra


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## rayc

raynipper said:


> Like many latest vendettas that have surfaced recently, I fully believe some politicians feel they are above the law.
> Now we have a Tory MP who is being taken to task because he asked his secretary to buy a couple of sex toys? Is this harassment?
> I think it was Ed Balls and Yvette Cooper who were accused of ordering sex videos on MPs expenses. I guess thats OK then as who was harassing who??.
> 
> Ray.


I think it was the husband of Jackie Smith who ordered two TV pay to view sex films at £5 a time on her MP expenses.


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## raynipper

rayc said:


> I think it was the husband of Jackie Smith who ordered two TV pay to view sex films at £5 a time on her MP expenses.


In that case I am happy to stand corrected Ray. But it was our fiver.

Ray.


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## HermanHymer

Funny, I was never harassed at work. Too scary? (I certainly wasn't too ugly or too fat!)

However when I was 16 my guitar teacher used to corner me and try to kiss me. I was horrified and gave up lessons immediately!


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## nicholsong

HermanHymer said:


> Funny, I was never harassed at work. Too scary? (I certainly wasn't too ugly or too fat!)
> 
> *However when I was 16 my guitar teacher used to corner me and try to kiss me. * I was horrified and gave up lessons immediately!


Bet you were stringing him along.:wink2:


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## rayrecrok

What have I missed out on... Nobody has tried to sexually harass me..:crying:

ray.


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## aldra

I suppose my view remains

If you didn’t tackle the problem when it occurred , then bringing it up 20 yrs later publicly, to me, feels a bit vindictive and retributional 

I’m not sure how we can really judge an action that happened many years ago 

Memory is a strange thing 
and the circumstances and intent around an action that happened many years previously can easily be distorted in memory 

Sandra


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## barryd

I think I might have been guilty of Sexual Harassment at work years ago. Twice in the Stationery Cupboard and once in the Kitchen.  It cant have been that awful though as she did end up marrying me. I reckon that was her getting her own back.


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## patp

Young women can be very in awe of their male superiors. How do you deal with your male superior taking advantage of you when he also has the power to sack you or at least over look you for promotion.


Some women have the "balls" to tackle it head on at the time and others don't.


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## aldra

I follow that Pat

But I imagine that much of a persons lifeand career have moved on in 20 yrs 

It’s a long time to develope “ balls “

Methinks to use an expression such as that a bit anti feminist :grin2:

Sandra


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## raynipper

Yep Sandra. No more 'blonde' jokes sadly. Where is it all gonna stop?? Mother-in-Laws.??

Ray.


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## nicholsong

raynipper said:


> Yep Sandra. No more 'blonde' jokes sadly. Where is it all gonna stop?? Mother-in-Laws.??
> 
> Ray.


Les Dawson would turn in his grave:surprise:

(Actually is he dead?)


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## jiwawa

aldra said:


> If you didn't tackle the problem when it occurred , then bringing it up 20 yrs later publicly, to me, feels a bit vindictive and retributional
> 
> Sandra


I think many people bury the experience deep in order to cope with it, depending on the severity, through shame, or a sense of responsibility - neither of which is a valid response to someone else's inappropriate behaviour.


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## aldra

Of course I understand that, but somethings, like for example being asked to buy sex toys isn’t going to have a devestating effect that needs burying deep in the subconscious, or if it is I’d suggest that there is something much deeper going on in a persons subconcious 

Just find it strange that so many people suddenly feel able to come forward years after the event to report what they feel was sexual harassment, and jumping on the bandwagon springs to mind

We’ve all undergone harassment at sometime or another from the bully in the playground to the bully in the workplace, male and female 

As a child I sat in front of a plate of cold tripe for hours until the home “ mother “ then tried to force feed me until I was sick, then I was sent to bed early for several days as punishment 

Not once but every Tuesday week in week out, and early bed Wed and Thursday , and the long lasting effect was, I still hate tripe 

That’s not to belittle someone who has undergone a really bad or frightening experience, but along life’s path we need to take some responsibility for our reactions and actions at the time not 20 yrs or so later 

Jean what on earth is wrong with your phone, it’s speaking my words in code now!!!

I speak in tongues, is this a sign >

Sandra :grin2:


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## raynipper

I had that with school dinners Sandra. Meat was only fat and gristle. Gravy and custard was brown and runny with lumps.

Ray.


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## GMJ

...virtually every Sunday dinner with me. Had to sit there for 3 hours and then sent to bed...at 4.00pm usually!

Graham :frown2:


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## jiwawa

aldra said:


> Jean what on earth is wrong with your phone, it?s speaking my words in code now!!!
> 
> I speak in tongues, is this a sign >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sandra


That's how I see it all the time Sandra - well, maybe since a week or two ago.

I too have concerns about a bandwagon effect, but I think it's good that people are realising that they need to be more careful. I read of an MP saying what he admitted saying wasn't sexual harassment. Frankly, it's not up to him to decide, and I would have been uncomfortable on the receiving end of it.

The girl buying the sex-toys - she might have been worried they were for her, or it was an opening gambit in a game he was playing.

Whatever, it was totally inappropriate and as he was the one with the power he should also have been the one with a modicum of common sense and decency.


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## aldra

Hey

But that was my supposed home

A place of security

Not 

School was far more secure, but even that was transitory, as I was moved from home to home 

But it’s what they did in those days

Which is why I graduated from university at 40 

And the hound from hell is a pussy cat compared to me in those days 

I’ve mellowed >

Well a bit

Sandra :grin2:


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## aldra

It’s hard for me to understand

If he wanted me to buy sex toys I’d haveburst out laughing , and wanted the details 

And then have said no way buy them yourself , they are not my thing 

I’ve always had a sense of humour about sex , and would be happy to tease in return

I always remember the advice

If you feel intimidated by someone

Imagine them sat on a toilet

An excellent leveller 

Sandra

Sandra


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## Spacerunner

I'm happy to say that I was sexually harassed at work......and very enjoyable too!
In fact work would have been unbearable without a bit of light relief. Hmm, bad choice of words maybe!


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## Revise

What one person thinks it a bit of light banter, another person would think of sexual harassment. Thie is no clear boundary can cross.

What was thought acceptable 20-30 years ago, might not be acceptable today. But does that make it sexual harassment for something that happened 20 years ago can be punished today? IMHO Yes, if it was serious enough. But what is serious enough. 

A friends wife used to work evenings in a call centre and would get heavy breathers, people shouting obscenities down the phone to the all female staff. It used top upset some of the girls and others just put the phone down on him. But my friends wife decided to egg him on and talk back to him one night, Surprisingly he never called back.


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## aldra

I had a phone call one night 

He was quite explicit 

And my social work training kicked in 

And in response I discussed all of his suggestions with him 

I bet he was very happy to finally get off the phone 

Sandra


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## ChrisandJohn

I think many women have tried to tackle it at the time but if the workplace culture is dismissive: 'You've got no sense of humour', 'It's just the way he is, don't take it seriously', You're just overreacting', etc. nothing happens about it and the women is made to feel she is in the wrong.

It's then only when your sense of having been insulted, taken advantage of, exploited etc. is validated by being shared with others that you have, collectively, the power to effect change.


Chris


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## barryd

Its not just women who get harassed you know. Ive worked with women all my career and those office girls can be a bit full on, especially when your a bit of a looker.  I blame that diet Coke advert from the 90's.


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## Revise

barryd said:


> Its not just women who get harassed you know. Ive worked with women all my career and those office girls can be a bit full on, especially when your a bit of a looker.  I blame that diet Coke advert from the 90's.


I had the same problem being compared to the diet coke advert in an office full of women, but when I took my top off it shut them all up with my six one pack.


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## barryd

Actually joking apart I think things were about right in the late 80's 90's and early 2000's in the office. I loved my time in Corporate la la land. Great banter and great fun. Banter and a bit of flirting was rife and well balanced from both men and women, or at least that was my experience. I am not sure its as much fun anymore these days. I still work in offices but it doesnt seem the same to me. All a bit serious and subdued.


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## peribro

barryd said:


> Actually joking apart I think things were about right in the late 80's 90's and early 2000's in the office. I loved my time in Corporate la la land. Great banter and great fun. Banter and a bit of flirting was rife and well balanced from both men and women, or at least that was my experience. I am not sure its as much fun anymore these days. I still work in offices but it doesnt seem the same to me. All a bit serious and subdued.


Ditto - it's all become far more politically correct but I daren't say anything more as this thread isn't in the subs lounge and Mrs P might log on!


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## Revise

In today's society you are afraid to say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing or think the wrong thing. In case you get called a perv, a racist, a pedo or you might hurt somebody's feelings as they are a minority or belong to some kind of group with an acronym of a name. (Don't even want to mention any of them on here.)

An example was several months ago I was out shopping on my own, I found a young child crying in the car park. I went over to the child to see if I could help as he apparently could not find his parents. He has lost them in the shop and wandered out to the car park. I walked him back towards the shop and he just grabbed my hand as he must have felt safer. But I felt very uncomfortable in case it looked like I was picking a kid up and walking away with them. 20 years ago I would not have felt like that, But in today's society, I felt very uncomfortable. Took him into the shop and found his mum running frantically around trying to find him. 

All very innocent, but some people may not see the whole picture and think I was some kind of child abductor.


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## raynipper

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Ray.


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## GMJ

rayrecrok said:


> What have I missed out on... Nobody has tried to sexually harass me..:crying:
> 
> ray.


Let me know when you are around these parts next Ray...

Graham >


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## raynipper

:surprise::surprise::surprise::wink2: ............................. goosed eh?

Ray.


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## patp

It is true it can work both ways. I have been told, several time, by men that the most embarrassed they have ever been is when they worked in a factory with a load of women!


I do think, though, that embarrassment is different to fear. Most men do not realise how fearful women are for their safety. Just walking alone somewhere can make a woman feel vulnerable.


I remember an occasion when I was walking my dogs in the woods. One was a large, black, German Shepherd. I was following a designated route and saw, ahead of me, a car parked. Cars were not supposed to be able to get into these designated routes. As I passed the car I saw a man giving me an assessing look. I moved on quickly only to find, a while later, that he had driven ahead of me, by another route, and was parked where I would have to pass him again. I veered off track and made my way towards where I knew the road was. On reaching the road I spotted a passing police car and flagged it down. I explained my experience only to see the officer glance down at my dogs with an incredulous look on his face as if to say "you must be joking - to be fearful when you have him walking beside you!". He had no understanding of a woman's feelings of vulnerability.


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## GMJ

I read an article this morning: Apparently Michael Fallon once touched a female journalist on the knee 20 years ago however she was not in the least concerned about it!

Sad state of affairs that this has now become news though!

Graham :serious:

PS I'm not condoning behaviour that does distress btw...


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## raynipper

Sadly times have changed and not always for the better.
Flirting is great and can left the spirits of both but when it becomes non consentual and pressured we all realise this is the line that has been crossed.
But again this 'line' has been very variable over the years. Now blokes, teachers, youth organisers, etc. Can be confused and even under stress in case this line has shifted.
Difficult to legislate exactly where this line is drawn.

Ray.


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## barryd

GMJ said:


> I read an article this morning: Apparently Michael Fallon once touched a female journalist on the knee 20 years ago however she was not in the least concerned about it!
> 
> Sad state of affairs that this has now become news though!
> 
> Graham :serious:
> 
> PS I'm not condoning behaviour that does distress btw...


The media have a lot to answer for in this country. I think they are mainly responsible for stirring up some kind of Witch hunt frenzy. I wouldnt want to be someone famous now who has been in the public eye for decades. I bet your constantly living in fear of someone making stuff up about you. Whilst its disgusting that clearly people like Saville etc were allowed to get away with such atrocious crimes I think its all going too far and there are clearly some dubious claims being made. There really should be no question of fame or financial compensation for any kind of retrospective harassment or assault claim. That I think would sort out the genuine claims from the attention compo seekers.

Michael Fallon was our MP in the important 1983 Darlington By Election and me and two of my pals ended up drinking with him whilst underage in a bar in Darlington he was known to frequent. Bet that would make a great headline. "Michael Fallon, Secretary for Defence buys underage boys booze". You could probably say whatever you liked to add some spice to the story and the papers would run it. How easy to ruin someones life and career? Its just wrong IMO. You cant just blame the media though, the public buy this crap and swallow it hook line and sinker.


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## erneboy

Damian Green now. I know nothing about him and I'm not defending him but it seems to me that anybody can say anything about anyone and it will be taken seriously. All that's needed is enough proximity for it to have been possible. Eventually it may not be proved but that hardly matters since mud sticks.

I have no answer to it but what's happening seems to me to be an unsafe way of proceeding.


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## rayc

erneboy said:


> Damian Green now. I know nothing about him and I'm not defending him but it seems to me that anybody can say anything about anyone and it will be taken seriously. All that's needed is enough proximity for it to have been possible. Eventually it may not be proved but that hardly matters since mud sticks.
> 
> I have no answer to it but what's happening seems to me to be an unsafe way of proceeding.


I can't explain it but I have got an instant dislike for Kate Maltby. Illogical perhaps but there it is. Perhaps older men should avoid going for drinks alone with younger women even if they part of family circles. Why did Kate Maltby go for occasional drinks with him, he had no hold over her, perhaps she wanted to get inside information on Westminster that she could to use in the course of her newspaper work?


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## Pudsey_Bear

I only ever got sexually harassed at work once, I'd sue for discrimination, but apparently they only listen to wimmin.


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## GMJ

Kev_n_Liz said:


> I only ever got sexually harassed at work once, I'd sue for discrimination, but apparently they only listen to wimmin.


I was going to say its good to see you back...but I'm not sure now:grin2:

Graham :smile2:


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## Pudsey_Bear

:crying::crying::crying:


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## GMJ

Kev_n_Liz said:


> :crying::crying::crying:


Nah..it is good to see you back mate

Graham


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## HurricaneSmith

raynipper said:


> Sadly times have changed and not always for the better.
> Flirting is great and can left the spirits of both but when it becomes non consentual and pressured we all realise this is the line that has been crossed.
> But again this 'line' has beed n very variable over the years. Now blokes, teachers, youth organisers, etc. Can be confused and even under stress in case this line has shifted.
> Difficult to legislate exactly where this line is drawn.
> 
> Ray.


"The man on the Clapham omnibus" knows exactly where that line is.

Salacious "bandwagon news" is popular with some of the public, who are only too keen to want to read about it.

The ladies I listened to this morning were quite clear too.

(Good to see you posting, Kev! )

.


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## ChrisandJohn

On the subject of consent or crossing lines this might be quite helpful






Chris


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## raynipper

I feel the same way about coffee.

Ray.


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## Webby1

> He had no understanding of a woman's feelings of vulnerability.


You see none of those men who have "casually" commented have any idea what that fear is.................banter in the workplace,the casual touching etc etc it's all a big joke............BECAUSE I know none of those women threaten me in ANY way..................I can walk the streets and no woman is going to jump out with a knife and force themselves on me.

Surely it's obvious you can't compare the two situations.........blah blah blah Political Correctness gone mad blah blah blah


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## raynipper

UK
Michael Fallon Resigns As Defence Secretary After Admitting Past Conduct Has 'Fallen Short'
Tory minister has been embroiled in Westminster 'sleaze' scandal.

No smoke without fire, eh?

Ray.


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## GMJ

raynipper said:


> UK
> Michael Fallon Resigns As Defence Secretary After Admitting Past Conduct Has 'Fallen Short'
> Tory minister has been embroiled in Westminster 'sleaze' scandal.
> 
> No smoke without fire, eh?
> 
> Ray.


I reckon there'll be more to come out about him as touching a knee 10 years ago wouldn't seem to be the stuff of resignations imho.

Whilst no lover of Tories or indeed misogynistic behaviour, I thought he came across in quite a principled manner when interviewed last night stating that he would expect high standards of the Armed Forces therefore he should act the same way!

Graham:smile2:


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## Pudsey_Bear

Webby1 said:


> You see none of those men who have "casually" commented have any idea what that fear is.................banter in the workplace,the casual touching etc etc it's all a big joke............BECAUSE I know none of those women threaten me in ANY way..................I can walk the streets and no woman is going to jump out with a knife and force themselves on me.
> 
> Surely it's obvious you can't compare the two situations.........blah blah blah Political Correctness gone mad blah blah blah


Got to agree with the above, but how many men would wish for at least some attention though.


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## raynipper

I get too much attention from all these widows. 28 now.
Usually wanting something fixing they have buggered up.

Ray.


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## Webby1

Of course Kev I would be pleased by the attention from other woman and would probably enjoy if a young woman commented "nice body" or whistled.
BUT that would be exactly because it was NO threat at all.

The only way to imagine a woman's situation is to think of you being in a gay area and a group of big men behaving like that to you.....putting hands on your knee in a bar etc..........that's unwanted attention.

Imagine what would it be like if a large man pinned you down and forced himself into you..............hmm not funny at all


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## Pudsey_Bear

Good example Tony. Been there had that, not the last bit though, I find a punch in the face dissuades them.


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## aldra

Well , I also experienced attention from men

With no threat at all

And not all women perceive a threat in harmless banter

I didnt envisage a man bursting out with a knife to threaten me 

And if truth be known not that many large men pinn you down and force themselves on you

A guess not that many forceful women do either

True some do of either sex 

But we need to keep a sense of perspective in all of this 

Sandra


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## Pudsey_Bear

Well said Sandra, Liz says her boobs were always being groped in pubs, but she found her own ways of dealing with it, unlike the bottle fed over nurtured women of today.


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## coppo

Caroline has said that in the 60's and 70's with what men did they would be in big trouble today.

That is just how it was she said, bosses, older cousins, landlords, they all groped and touched you.

She feels that some people are now just using it to gain money, attention etc.


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## ChrisandJohn

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Well said Sandra, Liz says her boobs were always being groped in pubs, but she found her own ways of dealing with it, unlike the bottle fed over nurtured women of today.


Yes, of course we had to find ways of dealing with assault and harassment. Everyone finds coping strategies for bad things that happen to them, but not all strategies we learn to adopt work out well when transferred to other situations. Some might 'decide' never to trust people, others might internalise a feeling of worthlessness if constantly subjected to being treated as being without worth. Like the majority of women I've survived the normal everyday sexism that all women are subjected to, that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter, or that it was 'acceptable'. My way of surviving it was to become very angry about all forms of sexism and injustice, not only about harassment but also the other ways that women (and minorities) were /are treated as second class.

When I was young it was legal to pay women less than men for the same work, to exclude women from many jobs and careers, to teach boys and girls different skills and subjects, regardless of their innate interests and leanings.

I remember when I was first married, but still working before having children. In the days before credit / debit cards you were often asked to put your name and address on the back of a cheque. If I bought clothes for myself, with my own money, from my own bank account I was often told 'to write your husband's or father's name on the back of the cheque. I clearly didn't have an identity of my own. All of this led me to identify as a feminist and I'm proud that there now seems to be a new wave of feminism. If younger women are speaking up about objectionable behaviour it doesn't mean they are over-nurtured, it means that they respect themselves and expect respect from others, and they're building on the advances gained by previous generations of women. Good for them.

Chris


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## ChrisandJohn

coppo said:


> Caroline has said that in the 60's and 70's with what men did they would be in big trouble today.
> 
> That is just how it was she said, bosses, older cousins, landlords, they all groped and touched you.
> 
> She feels that some people are now just using it to gain money, attention etc.


There might be the odd person who will try to gain in this way, but I think people (women mainly in this case) are speaking out now because people are listening. Actually women have always spoken out to their friends, or to others they could trust not to judge them. As women have often been blamed for the bad things that happen to them it has always been risky to speak out to 'the authorities'

Chris


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## aldra

Still feel the same 

If something happened 20 yrs or so ago

You missed the bus 

It’s now too late , unless it was a devestating occurrence 

Touching knees , sexual banter, etc 

I’m sorry , the boat has sailed 

And all the angst is yours to deal with 

Full stop 

And I know some will hold onto angst 

And I could too , a few not to pure people in charge of children’s homes, 

But I never let them define me , or maybe they have , but I’m me for all that happened in my past

I’m me , beloved by my family and friends 

So maybe all those bad things made me better than I would have been 

Without them

Sandra


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## Pudsey_Bear

The following video comes from here http://aplus.com/music-notes/stella...=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=email


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## erneboy

Maybe it's a good thing that this has now arrived in Pestminster.

Perhaps we'll see a proper examination of how such allegations should be considered and dealt with now that MPs have become a target. Till now an accusation, no matter how old or vague, seems to have been enough to ruin a life, even if eventually no charges were brought. 

While I do agree that it's right to investigate these things and act where there is evidence I also think that many innocent people have been ruined by unsupportable accusations. I believe that MPs didn't act because legislating to tighten the rules would have been seen a no win situation for them and as long as they weren't in the firing line it was best avoided.

I know it is very difficult, but surely it can't be left as it's been, where one person pointing a finger can end a career and ruin a life?


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## raynipper

Agreed Alan. But we all know that anything smelly to do with our MP's gets swept under the carpet today only to appear again sometime later. i.e. MP's fiddling expenses.

Ray.


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## Glandwr

Twists and turns, if this story from the Telegraph today is true Loathsome has set the cause back rather than advanced it methinks.

*Andrea Leadsom "knifed" Sir Michael Fallon after he suggested she was a "dud" who would have to be sacked to get Cabinet agreement on the Brexit deal, it has emerged.

The Commons Leader launched a "preemptive strike" against the former defence secretary to protect her own job, ministers have said, and is now "unsackable" because of her whistleblower status.

Colleagues have also suggested that Mrs Leadsom, who ran for the Tory leadership last year, harbours ambitions of becoming chancellor if Theresa May is eventually succeeded by Gavin Williamson, the man who replaced Sir Michael.

Sir Michael resigned on Wednesday night, a day after Mrs Leadsom had given Downing Street a dossier of claims about his behaviour towards her*


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## barryd

I agree with you Alan as you know. Having seen someone close to me be falsely accused of such a crime, go through years of hell, see their life ruined, lost their house due to legal fees and who can never work again and suffered a mental breakdown but was eventually unanimously found not guilty by a Jury whilst I deplore anyone who carries out any kind of sexual assault or harassment I really think its time the Witch hunt was reigned in a bit and really there should be no question of financial compensation for such claims IMO. Its way to risky. Just have a look at some of the amounts of claims people can claim for sexual assault. https://www.legalexpert.co.uk/how-to-claim/sexual-abuse-claims/#sacc15

The NHS and education are paying out millions for claims every year now and its getting as bad as the insurance fraud and claims for false whiplash in car shunts. The difference is a false claim even when its proved false can leave the life of the accused in tatters, permanently. There should definitely be a time limit I think and no question of compensation and its getting bonkers if someone is forced to resign just for putting a hand on a journalists knee.


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## patp

I so agree with Chris's and others' posts about how women feel when in the company of men. The description of how a man would feel in a Gay bar sums it up nicely. It is the thing that convinced my husband about how women feel.


I have worked in lots of different situations. Some were all female, some mixed sexes and some where I was the only female among a large group of men. It only takes one man amongst all those different groups to do one thing to make you feel absolutely vulnerable and scared to be left alone with him. It may not be reasonable but it is how a woman feels. As Chris says, this carries over into other areas of your life and places restrictions upon the things you feel safe doing.


As a young girl I helped at the local riding stables. All those lovely dark stables to get trapped in with a groper (or worse). Yes, we all learned "coping" strategies of how to deal with him and it turned out that he was harmless but he might not have been!
One day I was sent out to catch a horse from the, very large, area of land where they grazed. Hidden behind some bushes was a "flasher". My adult self knows that flashers are rarely dangerous but my younger self was traumatised by his behaviour. 


Should I report all this now? No I don't think so. I would like to see, however, Theresa May's helpline idea expanded so that every person who feels violated can call a number and report it. Failure to report the incident within a year of it happening means that the victim has no further recourse to the law. Reporting it does not mean that action need be taken at the time. I would never have reported my experiences because my parents would have put a stop to my visits to the riding stables.
Police could monitor the phone line and see patterns developing in certain areas. The riding stables for instance would flag up on a weekly basis as the groper (owner of the stables) got his fix of teenage flesh when they all arrived to help out each Saturday morning.
If I had reported him I would have stayed anonymous because of his position of power over me. He had the power to deny my access to the hobby a adored.


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## Pudsey_Bear

I don't think any man would be against the accusations against predatory men, but I do think there must be a shift in the way that anyone, public figure or not, is treated, how can you expect unbiased treatment if you've already been judged by the media.


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## erneboy

They way these things are handled has looked like the assumption of guilt for a long time to me. In British law the assumption of innocence used to be of primary importance. Overturning that in these, or any other cases, is just plain wrong, as is naming the accused in a fishing expedition hoping for more accusations, then treating the aggregation of the accusations you've solicited as being supportive of one another thus constituting actual evidence. What they actually signify is that the fishing worked, nothing more in my opinion.

That's why they've named so many people before even starting an investigation. Cliff Richard is a good example of that.


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## raynipper

I want that obnoxious plank Chris Evans investigated. Only cos I don't like him.

Ray.


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## aldra

Well I’ve put my hand on many knees, male and female 

It’s what I do and did 

I always said, people need hugs 

Hugged people without a sexual thought in my heart or head 

As manager I always hugged people , people need hugs, I need hugs 

And I always remember one staff member that I never hugged because she wouldn’t have welcomed it , turning back at the door on her way out and saying, well you hug everyone, maybe you would like to hug me too 

And I so wanted too and did 

We convey care, affection , friendships and empathy by hugs 

And as child , and adolescent no one hugged me and I could never have hugged anyone 

And you won’t like this, but one day God hugged me 

And the rest was history 

Sandra


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## Pudsey_Bear

I have been bad in the past, dunno if I cab arsed now.


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## aldra

Do tell Kev, how bad?

Are people lining up to say, just how bad you were 

That’s the bit I struggle with

A guy put his hand on my knee and leered at me , a few did , in my time 

He wasn’t famous and I haven’t a clue who he / they were 

Now if I was traumatised, tough I can’t identify them , why should I ?

So I’ve forgotten them and their leering

But if they were a celebraty , ok I remember, maybe 

Did a celebratory puting their hands on me traumatise me to such an extent I’d need to identify them 20 yrs later ? 

Sorry, I don’t think so 

Sandra


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## Pudsey_Bear

No more than anyone else did.


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## ChrisandJohn

I can't really judge if there is a witch hunt. I loathe the gutter press and other media who have an interest in making any scandal run and run, until the next one comes along. I also don't like excessive compensation for minor matters, especially when it comes out of the public purse which is meant to pay for our services.

What I'm seeing though is women (mainly) speaking out and saying 'Yes, that happened to me too'. As a result I think two parallel things are happening. The women speaking out are gaining a sense of support and solidarity, and perhaps relief that these issues are coming out in the open and might at last be addressed. At the same time there are those who are either shocked at how ubiquitous is the range of exploitative, predatory or just plain professionally inappropriate behaviour, or who thought that such behaviour was just stuff they could dismiss as 'locker room banter', that 'used to be acceptable' in the 'good old days'. 

As I've said elsewhere, all women are familiar with and have found ways of dealing with the casual sexism of harassment, unwanted groping, inappropriate remarks, flashing etc. What shocked me in my working life (as a social worker in a residential setting) was the extent of sexual abuse of children and young people. It was the 1980s and initially people didn't come into our adult mental health rehab unit having made any disclosure of abuse. They came in with a history of severe depression, anxiety, multiple hospital admission for over-dosing and other forms of self harm, particularly cutting. Often, the ways they had learned or developed to deal with the abuse had become the problem. We were a new unit and in the safe, supportive environment we tried to create we eventually had disclosures of abuse, often by family members and other 'trusted' adults, including those in the care system. 

Over the 13 years I worked there the issue of child sexual abuse became more widely discussed and understood and also during that time the number of admissions where abuse was already a known factor increased (I can't quote statistics, it's just my impression). People were more readily disclosing as the issues were more publicly discussed and there was a greater trust that they would be believed, accepted and not judged. I don't think anybody was jumping on a bandwagon or after compensation, they just wanted to make changes in their lives and move on.

I'm mentioning this because I think it's all part of the same phenomenon: using authority or power to exploit, and trusting that shame, embarassment, a sense of loyalty, bribery or threats will help to keep it quiet. OK, some of the 'hand on knee' stuff mentioned might, on it's own, appear trivial, but if power imbalance is a factor it's abuse, it's just the thin end of the wedge. 


Chris


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## ChrisandJohn

I wouldn't have been able to do the job I did if I didn't think people could make changes and turn their lives around. We've all done bad things (perhaps some more than others >:surprise.

I think people can learn from their mistakes - if they acknowledge them as mistakes. With some of the kinds of repeated unwanted attention we have seen described by many MPs I think it could be mainly a matter of educating them into the issues and being explicit about what sort of standards are required. And not putting them in a job that's inappropriate to their current level of (mis)understanding.

In the case of the original disclosures about Jared O'Mara, for example, I would have personally given him the benefit of the doubt about having changed the views he expressed over a decade ago when he was about 21. People can change. It was the later allegations of more recent inappropriate conduct that became the issue, especially as he was on some kind of equality commitee. 

Cultural change, not vindictiveness is what is needed.


Chris


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## raynipper

Yes, times change, attitudes change and tolerances change. We must all be prepared to change with them. What was not necessarily acceptable but tolerated years ago is no longer. We must accept this but going on witch hunts for minor transgressions decades ago borders on the inquisition.

Ray.


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## barryd

raynipper said:


> Yes, times change, attitudes change and tolerances change. We must all be prepared to change with them. What was not necessarily acceptable but tolerated years ago is no longer. We must accept this but going on witch hunts for minor transgressions decades ago borders on the inquisition.
> 
> Ray.


Just what are the boundaries? Whats acceptable and what isnt? Does anyone know cos I certainly dont? I dont know the full details about what Fallon did but didnt he just put his hand on some journo's knee or was there more to it? Was it not Terry Wogan that was famous for that on live TV and everyone made a joke of it? Totally innocent on Terrys behalf for sure.

So I guess it depends how it was done. If the journo told him to stop touching her then fair enough. I guess you can touch someone in a genuine none threatening manner or you can touch someone in the same place and make it creepy. I guess you had to be there really.

Im a bit like Sandra, I am quite tactile, I even cuddle Tuggers every time I meet him cos I know it annoys him and I certainly cuddle Sandra every time I meet her.  Are they going to sue me years from now? Dont bother, ill be skint.

The way its going everyone in the public eye is going to be looking over their shoulder wondering if they did anything that could be deemed inappropriate. Whilst I deplore any kind of behaviour that makes any woman or man for that matter (and it does cut both ways sometimes) isnt it all getting a bit out of hand? (no pun intended)


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## Pudsey_Bear

Yup, tuggy does look like he needs a cuddle, then you hear him laugh and it'd be compulsory I think.

Touching is nice , or should be, feeling up too, can be nice for both parties, but some take it too far, or inappropriately, it is they who need to be informed that's not acceptable, and prosecuted (not persecuted) if they continue.


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## patp

Using Terry Wogan as an example. His whole body language was that of a man who was warm, open and innocent. It is therefore, easy to believe that his touching during a public conversation was the same.


To me, it is the hand under the table type of touching that is worrying. I, as a woman, would not touch someone's knee under the table! Why then would a man deem it acceptable to do it?


Another personal example: We had a good family friend. A lovely man, well regarded in the community and holding a high office in his chosen profession. When I was about seven or eight I remember him asking me to sit on his knee. I was past the age of doing that and was very reluctant. He, however, was insistent and drew me on to his lap. My family encouraged me to "sit on Mr Anonymous's lap". Once there I felt very uncomfortable and I distinctly remember his breathing changing.... Nothing further occurred, perhaps I avoided his company, and we moved area when I was ten.
When I tell my brothers this story they are gobsmacked. The fine, upstanding, man that was Mr Anonymous could not possibly have been "interested" in little girls. I am sure that, to this day, they do not really believe me. The fact that I have remembered, what should have been, a perfectly innocent childhood experience, with a family friend, sends out alarm signals, to my adult brain, that all was not as it should have been during that encounter. In other words - a woman knows.


As I have said above - would I report it now? No. I have dealt with it and have suffered no lasting damage (as far as I know) If there had been a facility like Child Line or the whistle blowing facility that Theresa May is setting up for Parliament, then I could have. His behaviour would have been logged and on record to add to any other allegations. Once a pattern emerged, or not, then decisions could be made about a course of action.


As to naming suspects before the guilty verdict then I am totally against it. Everybody is entitled to anonymity and I deplore this trial by the media that is happening at the moment.


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## barryd

Some of the accusations are just bonkers though

Jonathon Pie sums it up quite well. Bit of Sunday afternoon humour.  The Mail as always on it like a tramp on chips. Do not watch this if your easily offended!


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## Pudsey_Bear

I discovered I am easily offended


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## raynipper

I'm not after watching Channel 5.

Ray.


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## barryd

I did warn you. I think he is the funniest bloke on youtube right now.


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## aldra

Well I found I’m not 

Maybe we demand exemplary behaviour from our so called leaders and pop idols

What they do in their own time in consensual relationships, is frankly non of my business 

And did I already fall down and worship them and their position?

No I didn’t, and a brief reading of the Brexit threads shows others don’t either 

So I don’t need to respect them, but they need to live their private lives by my expectations ?

And for those that do worship ,and whose lives are forever blighted by those revelations, 

I’d suggest get real, you have responsibility for your own life, and quite frankly if sugartits and a hand on your knee, destroyed your self worth 

Try being raised in children’s homes 65 yrs ago , yes there was knee sitting , but you learnt to ignore that, w****** we called them 

And no I’m in favour of any unwanted sexual advances , but 

I wonder why people put up with it in order to advance their career

A conscious decision I would think

A decision made then, so live with it 

And Barry you’re total safe babe , I love your hugs , and I loved tuggys too 

Now if you sue me, do it soon 

My clock is ticking time down 

Sandra


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## aldra

To late to edit

But I’m definately NOT in favour of any unwanted sexual advances , by either sex 

Sandra


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## Pudsey_Bear

aldra said:


> To late to edit
> 
> But I'm definately NOT in favour of any unwanted sexual advances , by either sex
> 
> Sandra


Bugger, I was just getting in the car too:wink2::wink2:


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## aldra

Bugger 

I missed you Kev 

Sandra


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## Pudsey_Bear

:nerd::nerd:00


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## peribro

I've not followed all the posts in this thread so I may be repeating but where do you draw the distinction between an attempted "pass" (old fashioned term) and a sexual assault. Without doubt I've attempted the former and have sometimes been successful and other times not at all. I've not though forced myself on anyone but a lot of the complaints that appear to be surfacing now don't entail force - merely the making of a "pass".

It seems like it's another witch-hunt - this time the media's revenge for what Parliament did to it in revenge for the expenses scandal.


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## erneboy

And Bob Quick getting even with Green by saying that the MP had legal porn on his own computer. Green denies it and even denies having had his own computer in his office. Do I believe a discredited cop or a politician? Does it matter anyway since it was not illegal?


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