# fridges on ferries



## sherrif

Hi everybody
can I pick your brains about fridges working on ferries....Ive just booked a passage to Lerwick on North Link ferries and my wife asked the question If we are on board for 12 hours will the fridge still work?...the answer being yes if I leave the gas on,,,,,is this permitted?...I suppose if the door of the fridge is kept shut it will stay cool for a while but not 12 hours......what does everybody else do as I assume it is a common problem
many thanks in anticipation
neil....sherrif


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## dct67

I think this has been discussed before on MHF, but it is a no-no to leave the fridge running on gas when on-board a ferry - although some do.

The consensus seems to be to pre-freeze some items and leave them in the fridge, should keep it cold for 12 hours or so.

David


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## bozzer

Chilli con carni made and frozen prior to the trip. Take out of freezer and place in fridge 30 mins before boarding. Turn fridge up high. 

Board and turn off gas as requested. Chilli acts as freezer block.

Arrive at destination and chilli is used for evening meal.

Jan


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## DTPCHEMICALS

As above, no problems.

I am sure you would not like to leave your gas on and by some minute accident cause a fire 6 hours into the trip.
Anyway supermarkets are full of stuff at the other end.

Dave p


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## LPDrifter

Channel crossing for us is approx 20 hours trying to keep 
anything in the fridge is a no no. I think leaving the gas fridge 
running I would think pose a safety hazard.

We just look out for a French Supermarket shortly after
we arrive there and stock up. French supermarkets are great.


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## aultymer

> We just look out for a French Supermarket shortly after
> we arrive there and stock up. French supermarkets are great.


Problem is:- there aren't many French supermarkets in Lerwick :lol:


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## sherrif

Thanks everybody for the replies......you confirmed what I suspected that having a "live" gas bottle in a ferry is not a good idea.......I am rather taken with the chili concarni idea...may substitute it for a curry
once again
cheers neil


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## short-stick

Leave fridge on gas, stay in van in hold. Any gas incident you're there to deal with it. Ship sinks, you drown. 
A captain must go down with his motorhome. Simplzzzzz

Or

Just put a load of frozen ice packs or plastic bottles of frozen water in the fridge before loading.... Bonus is fresh drinking water later


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## SNandJA

sherrif said:


> Hi everybody
> can I pick your brains about fridges working on ferries....Ive just booked a passage to Lerwick on North Link ferries and my wife asked the question If we are on board for 12 hours will the fridge still work?...the answer being yes if I leave the gas on,,,,,is this permitted?...I suppose if the door of the fridge is kept shut it will stay cool for a while but not 12 hours......what does everybody else do as I assume it is a common problem
> many thanks in anticipation
> neil....sherrif


We used the Harwich/Esjberg Ferry some 20 hours crossing and had the fridge full. Everything survived. Key as stated elsewhere is to have items to fill space, chilli, frozen water etc. They other thing to say is to have the fridge going before you leave home so that it is already cold before you transfer stuff you want to take and run it while waiting to board the ferry on gas for final top up.
We used a Denmark to Oslo ferry on the same trip (9 hours) and before boarding all m/homes had to unlock the gas locker, turn gas off and seal the locker door with a company seal leaving it unlocked. The greatest fear of all sailors is fire on board.


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## Mrplodd

If you ask nicely many ferries have EHU hookup points for refrigerated lorries. I have seen MH'ers make use of these hookups on cross channel routes. (Dont forget that large vessels operate a 240 Volt elecrical system) 

Try speaking with the ferry company prior to your departure date. 

The very worse they can say is No!

If you have your fridge on long enough prior to sailing AND you dont open it your should be fine. 

I did exactly that on an overnighter from Stavanger to Hirtshals last summer. No problem at all, stuff in the freezer compartment was still very frozen !!


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## Jezport

As a Scout leader I have had to keep food cool in a tent for days. We use cartons of frozen milk and freeze anything that can be frozen prior to leaving, even bread and most margarines freeze. Do not freeze stuff in glass bottles or containers though.

I would also put the stat to max on the fridge for a couple of hours before boarding.


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## rupert1

I never turn my gas off on a ferry and never been asked to, have on tunnel. Why would leaving a fridge on gas be likely to cause any problems.


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## Stanner

rupert1 said:


> I never turn my gas off on a ferry and never been asked to, have on tunnel. Why would leaving a fridge on gas be likely to cause any problems.


I would guess it's because there is a naked flame in there burning away and I think naked flames are banned on the car decks of ferries in case there is a fuel spillage.


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## Grizzly

rupert1 said:


> I never turn my gas off on a ferry and never been asked to, have on tunnel..


You will find that you have agreed to do so. Read the Terms and Conditions that you ticked to say you had read and agreed to when you booked your ticket online, and you will find you signed up to (section 10: Safety and Security):

_ (viii) On Short Sea, Western Channel and North Sea routes, gas with a weight of up to 47kg (excluding the weight of the gas receptacle) may be carried. On Irish Sea routes, up to 3 gas cylinders of no more than 11.2kg may be carried. All cylinders must be adequately secured against movement of the ship with the supply shut off at the cylinders during the voyage. Leaking and inadequately secured or connected cylinders will be refused shipment _

G

Edit : This is P&O. I'm sure all the others will be the same. The Greek ferries - with camping on board- have a large notcie on the camper deck telling you to turn off your gas supply.


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## jonse

*Gas BOOM BOOM*

There is always always one. :roll:


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## rupert1

*Re: Gas BOOM BOOM*



jonse said:


> There is always always one. :roll:


Guess this remark is aimed at me but note you cannot explain why. Certainly not just one anyway, this has come up before on various forums and those that turn gas off and leave on have been pretty much equal. Same as it divide's those who leave gas on while traveling and those that do not, given you have a decent system in place. The flame is in a very enclosed space, how would it ignite anything?


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## Grizzly

*Re: Gas BOOM BOOM*



rupert1 said:


> The flame is in a very enclosed space, how would it ignite anything?


However enclosed the space in which your flame burns it is still drawing air from the deck around your van and any fumes around.

There is also the chance that the flame will go out - in rough seas for example or strong wind-and the flame failure device not turn off the gas supply. P&O have no means of knowing whether you have installed your own LPG system -wrongly perhaps- or not maintained the one you have. Gas leaking into the bilges of the boat is not good news.

This is an argument you need to have with the ferry company. The fact is that you agree to their terms when you use their ferry and so you have to abide by their instruction that you turn off your gas.

G


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## aultymer

> The flame is in a very enclosed space, how would it ignite anything?


The flame in a fridge is open to atmosphere via the air intake and the exhaust flue. In order to work air and anything it contains must be drawn into the burner.

Ever heard of fuel vapour? or do you smoke in petrol stations too?

There is always one!


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## Stanner

*Re: Gas BOOM BOOM*



rupert1 said:


> jonse said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is always always one. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Guess this remark is aimed at me but note you cannot explain why. Certainly not just one anyway, this has come up before on various forums and those that turn gas off and leave on have been pretty much equal. Same as it divide's those who leave gas on while traveling and those that do not, given you have a decent system in place. The flame is in a very enclosed space, how would it ignite anything?
Click to expand...

OK have it your way, put your fridge on and pour a can of petrol on the floor of your van.

It will be safe, as the flame is in an enclosed space.


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## jonse

*Bang Bang*

I must try that, Rules are for the safety of all that's why there made, :wink: But I think Grizzly says it all


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## Stanner

*Re: Bang Bang*



jonse said:


> I must try that, Rules are for the safety of all that's why there made, :wink: But I think Grizzly says it all


Perhaps that should be the penalty for anybody found breaking the rules with the burnt out shells left on the quayside.

The trouble is rule breakers end up inconveniencing everybody else if the get caught too often. It will end up with everybody having to remove their regulator hand it over to a member of the crew and only getting it back when the crossing is over.

EG.
One silly rule breaker has caused the Oxford Eastern By-pass, a safe road throughout all the time I lived there, to have a stupid blanket 50mph limit. All because she loaded 9 kids into a Xsara Picasso and lost control of it, crossed the central reserve and hit a car coming the other way killing the other driver and 3 or 4 of the kids in her car.

As a result the road now has a solid concrete central barrier (not just simple Armco like any other road) and a 50mph limit - as if that would stop another idiot overloading their car and losing control :roll:

But just as here, they just can't see their own stupidity for what it is.

:idea: 
Just why would ANYBODY want a fridge to be running on gas whilst driving - use expensive gas instead of "FREE" electricity from the engine :lol:

Weird :roll:


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## nicholsong

Ignoring the gas discussion, you have had several suggestions re cold items in fridge etc.

Assuming you have a 3-way fridge which is normally wired to only work on 12v supply from the alternator/engine battery, but it would be possible to wire a separate supply from the leisure batteries, either temporarily or through a change-over switch. 

You might need to carefully consider the current drawn by the fridge, according to the ambient temp ( it can get warm in ships' holds), the capacity of your leisure batteries etc.

It should be possible to run it at a low thermostat setting for a few hours, especially if you do it in combination with the other tips above, since the thermostat may not need to click in for the first few hours of the trip.

Geoff


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## bozzer

Just an update on the frozen food in fridge.

I used the method on the Portsmouth/Bilbao route - 30 hrs I think.

1 Chilli
1 x 2lt milk
2 x 1lt water
All frozen prior and placed in fridge as we boarded.

We use a fridge thermometer and it was still in the green, OK, when we arrived. At that point the 6 packs of bacon were placed in the freezer and frozen as we travelled. Everything else lasted fine.

If you are still worried I'm sure you could go down the route Geoff describes.

Jan


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## Boff

rupert1 said:


> Why would leaving a fridge on gas be likely to cause any problems.


Two reasons:

Firstly, as already mentioned, if somewhere fuel leaks out, the flame could ignite the vapour, leading to a fire.

Secondly, and this is the reason why you have to shut all gas valves on a ferry: Propane and Butane gases are heavier than air. So if gas leaks out it will drop downwards. No problem on a ground vehicle, as any gas buildup can be avoided by dropholes. But, for quite obvious reasons, there can be no dropholes in the bottom of a boat. So any leaking gas would drop down to the bottom part of the boat, the bilge, and collect there. Collect there until it reaches the critical level, and then: *Boom!*

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## thieawin

my fridge, 12 v, is powered from the leisure batteries. even with 36 hours to Bilbao would a fridge only flatten or drain fully charged leisure batteries? I doubt it and if it did you woud be able to recharge on tricle when you set off at other end and or hooked up.

So move switch to 12v and place ice packs of choice in the fridge

Whatever you do turn off the gas


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## rupert1

Boff said:


> rupert1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would leaving a fridge on gas be likely to cause any problems.
> 
> 
> 
> Two reasons:
> 
> Firstly, as already mentioned, if somewhere fuel leaks out, the flame could ignite the vapour, leading to a fire.
> 
> Secondly, and this is the reason why you have to shut all gas valves on a ferry: Propane and Butane gases are heavier than air. So if gas leaks out it will drop downwards. No problem on a ground vehicle, as any gas buildup can be avoided by dropholes. But, for quite obvious reasons, there can be no dropholes in the bottom of a boat. So any leaking gas would drop down to the bottom part of the boat, the bilge, and collect there. Collect there until it reaches the critical level, and then: *Boom!*
> 
> Best Regards,
> Gerhard
Click to expand...

Gerhard I was not going to reply on this thread because replies I got made no sense until you at least give a sensible response. However would point out that for an enclosed flame from a fridge to ignite petrol vapour it would require a tanker load to leak onto deck. Most vehicles on cross channel ferries, which I am talking about are diesel, including mine, and a small amount will not ignite. Even petrol you would need massive amounts because it would have to come from another vehicle and car decks on these ferries are either open to the elements at either end or very well ventilated indeed so any vapour from small spill would be dispersed. As to the gas I carry two 6kg bottles in the unlikely event of a leak it would indeed drop down and then disperse. In the case of it dropping into bilges, pretty much impossible anyway, they have preventative measures these days to prevent this very thing from happening. It may be in the small print of terms and conditions, have never read them, as was pointed out earlier.


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## Annsman

All vehicle ferries have an extensive vapour exhaust system on every car deck. The air inside the deck is drawn out and replaced mechanically and naturally at all times when the doors are closed and the ship is at sea. The ships bilges are done in the same way, so there can be no build up of flammable gasses to a dangerous level.

I think if it was a problem of such magnitude as some people think the ferry companies would have proper signage all over and before you board the ship telling you o switch off the gas and not leave it to section 10 of a set of rules and guidleines they know full well no one reads and we all just tick the box.

I would say the possibility of a fridge on a motorhome causing an explosion or fire on a ship is about the same as a mobile phone causing a fire in a petrol station or you being gassed in your van! i.e. possible in the vivid imagination of the human brain, but in reality not going to happen in the real world.


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## Boff

Hi again,

I totally agree that both scenarios I pointed out are extremely unlikely. At least as long as all due safety precautions on board a ferry are actually carried out. Which we cannot always rely upon, as incidents like the _Herald of Free Enterprise_ disaster teach us. However, unlikely does not mean impossible, and should such a scenario nevertheless come true on a fully-booked ferry boat, consequences would be just as disastrous.

And to my knowledge the demand to shut off all gas valves is not just some company terms and conditions fineprint, but a requirement from SOLAS. So something which ferry operators have to comply with.

However, I am fully aware that not all ferry companies show the same due diligence here. On my (countless) ferry trips with the MH I have seen all extremes, from blissful ignorance on the part of the ferry staff, to an officer _personally_ checking every single gas bottle in every single MH or caravan, then _personally_ sealing the gas locker (Color Line to Norway).

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Penquin

Totally agree with comments about conditions of sale of ticket and requirement to turn off gas - we use Brittany Ferries to Roscoff frequently and have been checked 3 out of last 4 times going from UK to France but NEVER the other way!  

As regards running in 12v I believe that a fridge takes about 8a to operate and if running for 24 hours (e.g. Portsmouth to Santander or Portsmouth to Bilbao) that means 192ah (24 x 8). Batteries NEVER give their full rated ah capacity and if they do they are wrecked since if the output voltage falls much below 12v the cells are damaged often irreversibly. 

So running on 12v for a long crossing requires a huge storage facility in order to be able to supply the required current for the required time.  

Frozen water bottles and the like worked well for us when we did Plymouth - Santander, whereas the sole who thought they could un it on gas and were then parked on the ramp at an angle of about 10 degrees discovered the truth that fridges will only run if horizontally and not tilting! The floor of their van was very wet where everything had thawed! 8O   

We have enquired about 240v hook up and have never been able to do it - the ferry companies are not keen on that idea.  

Dave


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## Telbell

> I think if it was a problem of such magnitude as some people think the ferry companies would have proper signage all over and before you board the ship telling you o switch off the gas and not leave it to section 10 of a set of rules and guidleines they know full well no one reads and we all just tick the box.


Annsman makes a very valid point here.

From what I recall a few years ago there was always signs posted everywhere to "turn off the gas" plus regular verbal tannoy announcements. I also recollect, when caravanning, a few "random checks" by loading staff.

We've done five return crossings in the last 2 years and haven't heard any announcements and wife tells me she did see one small written notice at Dover. Nothing at Dunkirk and nothing at Calais. And no random checks.

If the risk is commensurate with the amount of publicity warning of the danger then......there's very little risk.

And I must confess that since having the "secumotion" system I've never switched the gas off


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## Grizzly

So we must assume that those who do not turn off their gas on a ferry do not tick the box to say they agree to the terms and conditions of passage ? 

I'd be interested to know how they manage to book a crossing if they do not agree ? . Or perhaps they just tick the box knowing they are lying ? There's an awful lot of that about these days. 
 

G


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## Stanner

The next thing is that they will demand the captain set sail with the bow doors open to save time - I mean the chances of anything bad happening are next to impossible aren't they?


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## wp1234

Our ferries at Holyhead and most modern ones on other routes are able to provide EHU .
Although usually reserved for the freight refer units,assuming they were free we would not be too bothered if a motorhomer asked for EHU, just ask when you check-in or when you make your booking you might be suprised .


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## rupert1

Grizzly said:


> So we must assume that those who do not turn off their gas on a ferry do not tick the box to say they agree to the terms and conditions of passage ?
> 
> I'd be interested to know how they manage to book a crossing if they do not agree ? . Or perhaps they just tick the box knowing they are lying ? There's an awful lot of that about these days.
> 
> 
> G


Well not exactly lying Mr Grizzly, if you do not read but just tick you are in ignorance, not the same thing at all. Now I know you read all the small print and from posts on other threads you also study the terms and conditions of car parks and motorway service area's but I suspect like many others I do not bother. I read them on things like insurance documents but leave the rest to people like you who obviously have nothing better to do.


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## Stanner

wp1234 said:


> Our ferries at Holyhead and most modern ones on other routes are able to provide EHU .
> Although usually reserved for the freight refer units,assuming they were free we would not be too bothered if a motorhomer asked for EHU, just ask when you check-in or when you make your booking you might be suprised .


Assuming from this that you are in the ferry industry what is the official attitude to those who don't turn off the gas during the crossing?


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## Telbell

> So we must assume that those who do not turn off their gas on a ferry do not tick the box to say they agree to the terms and conditions of passage ?
> 
> I'd be interested to know how they manage to book a crossing if they do not agree ? . Or perhaps they just tick the box knowing they are lying ? There's an awful lot of that about these days.
> Crying or Very sad


So has everyone who's taken advantage of the Norfolk Lines offer this year been lying?

Norfolk Lines T&C's also say:
Passengers intending to travel with gas cylinders should inform the shipping line at the time of booking and not just prior to boarding.

So hands up those who include, when booking, a verbal or written statement saying "By the Way I intend to travel with a gas cylinder" and then repeat the statement when they are boarding?

And I assume these T&C's too are included with other Operators.

C'mon you "Liars"- admit it :wink:

Edit: Oh and Grizzly- you refer to P&O. Their T&C's do indeed state "Any gas cylinders to be carried must be declared at the time of booking."

So do you tell P&O, when booking, "by the way I'm carrying a Gas cylinder".....and if not, if you assume that they will know you are carrying one, aren't you, by your definition technically "lying" ?? :wink:


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## Stanner

rupert1 said:


> Grizzly said:
> 
> 
> 
> So we must assume that those who do not turn off their gas on a ferry do not tick the box to say they agree to the terms and conditions of passage ?
> 
> I'd be interested to know how they manage to book a crossing if they do not agree ? . Or perhaps they just tick the box knowing they are lying ? There's an awful lot of that about these days.
> 
> 
> G
> 
> 
> 
> Well not exactly lying Mr Grizzly, if you do not read but just tick you are in ignorance, not the same thing at all. Now I know you read all the small print and from posts on other threads you also study the terms and conditions of car parks and motorway service area's but I suspect like many others I do not bother. I read them on things like insurance documents but leave the rest to people like you who obviously have nothing better to do.
Click to expand...

Errrr no you have to tick that you have READ the T&Cs in order to make a booking.

What do you call ticking a box to confirm you have done something you are required to do, when in fact you haven't?


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## rupert1

Stanner said:


> rupert1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grizzly said:
> 
> 
> 
> So we must assume that those who do not turn off their gas on a ferry do not tick the box to say they agree to the terms and conditions of passage ?
> 
> I'd be interested to know how they manage to book a crossing if they do not agree ? . Or perhaps they just tick the box knowing they are lying ? There's an awful lot of that about these days.
> 
> 
> G
> 
> 
> 
> Well not exactly lying Mr Grizzly, if you do not read but just tick you are in ignorance, not the same thing at all. Now I know you read all the small print and from posts on other threads you also study the terms and conditions of car parks and motorway service area's but I suspect like many others I do not bother. I read them on things like insurance documents but leave the rest to people like you who obviously have nothing better to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Errrr no you have to tick that you have READ the T&Cs in order to make a booking.
> 
> What do you call ticking a box to confirm you have done something you are required to do, when in fact you haven't?
Click to expand...

Emmm, yes I stand corrected I confess I am a liar said yes and ticked the box. Will still leave my gas on though unless some health and safety jobsworth decides to check and tell me to turn it off. Their is no more risk here than if you park up on an aire and have the gas on because of course your pilot light could blow out, all the safety devices fail, van fills with gas you light your cooker and bang. No doubt though you rush out and turn the gas off after every use, well good luck I will continue with my obviously very risky existence . The original question was about the fridge on ferries, my answer leave it on gas. Now whether you agree or not is of no importance, this is a forum and different opinions are given. I fully accept that but if you are going to change the subject please try to give a good reason not some daft thing about going over the small print of a ferry ticket with a magnifying glass.


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## Stanner

rupert1 said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rupert1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grizzly said:
> 
> 
> 
> So we must assume that those who do not turn off their gas on a ferry do not tick the box to say they agree to the terms and conditions of passage ?
> 
> I'd be interested to know how they manage to book a crossing if they do not agree ? . Or perhaps they just tick the box knowing they are lying ? There's an awful lot of that about these days.
> 
> 
> G
> 
> 
> 
> Well not exactly lying Mr Grizzly, if you do not read but just tick you are in ignorance, not the same thing at all. Now I know you read all the small print and from posts on other threads you also study the terms and conditions of car parks and motorway service area's but I suspect like many others I do not bother. I read them on things like insurance documents but leave the rest to people like you who obviously have nothing better to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Errrr no you have to tick that you have READ the T&Cs in order to make a booking.
> 
> What do you call ticking a box to confirm you have done something you are required to do, when in fact you haven't?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Emmm, yes I stand corrected I confess I am a liar said yes and ticked the box. Will still leave my gas on though unless some health and safety jobsworth decides to check and tell me to turn it off. Their is no more risk here than if you park up on an aire and have the gas on because of course your pilot light could blow out, all the safety devices fail, van fills with gas you light your cooker and bang. No doubt though you rush out and turn the gas off after every use, well good luck I will continue with my obviously very risky existence . The original question was about the fridge on ferries, my answer leave it on gas. Now whether you agree or not is of no importance, this is a forum and different opinions are given. I fully accept that but if you are going to change the subject please try to give a good reason not some daft thing about going over the small print of a ferry ticket with a magnifying glass.
Click to expand...

 I didn't change any subject.

Somebody asked about leaving a fridge on while on a ferry crossing and somebody else pointed out that it was forbidden - neither was me.

I simply asked a subsequent question which you have now (truthfully) answered.


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## Suenliam

Rupert1 - could you let me know when you are traveling by ferry - so I can avoid it.

Yes I know others do the same as you, but I have a duty to me and mine to avoid the (alleged) dangers that are known to me :wink: 

Actually we travel either Hull/Zeebrugge or Tunnel and never take extra measures about food in the fridge. We use it quickly after the ferry and really perishable foods such as milk are bought when we arrive. Must admit we do ditch the icecubes before sailing.

Sue


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## bozzer

Sue 

Agree entirely but would add it's a duty to me and mine and others to avoid dangers that are known to me.

It used to be printed on the tag you hang from the mirror turn off the gas. Not sure if it still is.

Jan


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## Suenliam

Jan - yes agree - nice point you make.

Sue


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## Telbell

> What do you call ticking a box to confirm you have done something you are required to do, when in fact you haven't?


Yeah- you tell 'em stanner- like ticking a box to say you'll declare that you have gas on board when you book and then not declaring- or ticking a box to say you'll declare you have gas on board when you actually board-and not declaring.

Wow! there's a strong element of hypocrisy scattered on this thread.

So I say again- c'mon you "holier than thou" P & O and Norfolk Lines customers (especially those who consider that failing to keep to the T&C's is "lying"-......

......do you honestly inform the Ferry Companies that you have gas on board, both when you book and when you board?
:roll:


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## rupert1

Suenliam said:


> Jan - yes agree - nice point you make.
> 
> Sue


Really what point was that? Note Tellbell's bit about the gas bottles is being ignored by all the 'holy's'. It is also a surprise they have not been up in arms about the EHU connection suggestion, potentially a real danger.


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## wp1234

Stanner said:


> Assuming from this that you are in the ferry industry what is the official attitude to those who don't turn off the gas during the crossing?


These are pretty typical terms and conditions for ferries :

Fuel and Gas Cylinders 
Petrol 
Spare cans of petrol fuel are not allowed in passenger vehicles.

Gas Cylinders ( Butane and Propane) 
Each vehicle is allowed a maximum of 47kgs of gas. The gas flow must be shut off at the cylinders when the vehicle is on the ship. The cylinders must be adequately secured against movement and stored away from sources of ignition and heat.

Clearly, and unlike the Channel tunnel , we do not physically check every vehicle has its gas bottles turned off but we do carry out frequent spot checks and have a huge pile of confiscated gas bottles in the port as a result of those drivers stupidly flouting the rules. 
When you compare the likelihood and impact of a fire aboard ship vs channel tunnel in my personal opinion the risk introduced from a MH pilot light is relatively small. The sophisticated detection and high volume extinguishing systems that are fitted aboard modern car decks also go a long way towards mitigation.

But what I can't understand is why some MH drivers would want to introduce a fire risk on a ship by leaving their gas on/ carrying loads of gas and then cap it all by sailing with the risk themselves- seems pretty dim to me !


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## Zebedee

wp1234 said:


> But what I can't understand is why some MH drivers would want to introduce a fire risk on a ship by leaving their gas on/ carrying loads of gas and then cap it all by sailing with the risk themselves- seems pretty dim to me !


Transparent logic! :roll:

Can't argue with that. :wink:

Dave


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## Telbell

> These are pretty typical terms and conditions for ferries :


You seemed to have missed one out wp1234

I "randomly sampled" two Ferry Operators..(ok not really random N.L. because I know many on here use them and P&O because Grizzly quoted them )..and both of them included a T&C which required the customer to specifically inform the Operator if they were carrying gas (a) at time of booking and (b) when boarding. (see my previous Posts for the extracts)

I'm not in a position to argue whether it's less safe to have the taps open when on board ship, than it is in a tightly confined space with many other m/homes such as aires. I've coughed that in the past I've kept ours open- I may review this practice.

HOWEVER: I do get a bit miffed when people come on here and selectively quote from T&C's to support their argument (and in doing so quote the "L" word :wink: ) but choose to ignore other T&C's, presumably because it doesn't suit their argument.

The invitation is still open (including to Grizzly) to tell us whether, every time they make a booking on P&O & N'flklines, (and possibly others, I haven't checked them all) and also each time they board their ships, they expressly tell the operators they're carrying gas.

After all, the T&C's require it- and surely there must be a reason, in the interests of safety?

As I say, to chastise others for not keeping to some T&C's whilst themselves omitting to keep to others, smacks of hypocrisy.


----------



## pneumatician

*Fridge on Ferry*

Talking to a MH fridge repair chappie at Ebury Hill last week. (repairing Clive's enormous wine cooler, electric element blown)
He told me the tale of a recent call out where the fridge had packed up. Apparently the MH had been parked on a sloping deck whilst on the ferry. The owner had left it on gas and because the flame will always be vertical intensive damage had been caused to the fridge by overheating.

We always kick off with three frozen main meals, a litre of frozen milk, frozen meat in the freezer compartment. Plus normal fridge contents.
In the last nine years we have not encountered any problems.

Steve


----------



## Annsman

I can tick the "No gas cylinder" tag with a clear concience! I've got a gas TANK! So on that topic do the people with gas tanks crawl under their vans to turn them off or do they just ignore it like I do!

And as for 47 KGs size limit, that's most RVs with a gas fuel tank, and how many of those bother with this regulation and declare it, or don't get on the ship?


----------



## wp1234

Telbell said:


> After all, the T&C's require it- and surely there must be a reason, in the interests of safety?
> quote]
> 
> Don't forget your motorhome might well be parked right next to a freight vehicle that might legitimately be carrying declared Dangerous Goods some of which might well be flammable. Might a motorhome fridge pilot light supply the ignition should the freight vehicle DG goods leak on passage .
> Its probably not too unreasonable to consider fridge pilot lights to be an unacceptable risk.
Click to expand...


----------



## rupert1

[quote

Don't forget your motorhome might well be parked right next to a freight vehicle that might legitimately be carrying declared Dangerous Goods some of which might well be flammable. Might a motorhome fridge pilot light supply the ignition should the freight vehicle DG goods leak on passage . 
Its probably not too unreasonable to consider fridge pilot lights to be an unacceptable risk.[/quote]

Yes and someone who used one of the EHU hookups you suggested might have a faulty cable which then catches fire sets light to your van, spreads to surrounding vehicles etc. Please this is descending into fantasy land, their can always be a case made for a risk however small, we all take them every day without thought, the gas one is so small, forget it. Oh just remembered I am not a liar after all as I buy a Sea France carnet and have done so for the last three years. This can only be done by telephone so no tick in the box and no one asked if I had read the small print. Bearing in mind Telbells point I wonder how many of the 'holy's can say the same. So come on Grizzly and others do tell are you in fact the liars here.


----------



## Stanner

rupert1 said:


> Don't forget your motorhome might well be parked right next to a freight vehicle that might legitimately be carrying declared Dangerous Goods some of which might well be flammable. Might a motorhome fridge pilot light supply the ignition should the freight vehicle DG goods leak on passage .
> Its probably not too unreasonable to consider fridge pilot lights to be an unacceptable risk.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and someone who used one of the EHU hookups you suggested might have a faulty cable which then catches fire sets light to your van, spreads to surrounding vehicles etc. Please this is descending into fantasy land, their can always be a case made for a risk however small, we all take them every day without thought, the gas one is so small, forget it. Oh just remembered I am not a liar after all as I buy a Sea France carnet and have done so for the last three years. This can only be done by telephone so no tick in the box and no one asked if I had read the small print. Bearing in mind Telbells point I wonder how many of the 'holy's can say the same. So come on Grizzly and others do tell are you in fact the liars here.
Click to expand...

I have only ever travelled by CalMac in the motorhome and I happily complied with these requirements when I did.



> (b) With regard to gas cylinders in boats, caravans and in other vehicles where the gas is used solely in connection with its operation or business, steps shall be taken by Passengers, Shippers and Users to ensure that all cylinders are declared by such Passengers, Shippers and Users to the Vessel's officer in charge of loading and the following conditions shall apply:-
> (i) the maximum number of cylinders carried shall be 3, except in the case of small expendable cartridges hermetically sealed and packed in an outer container, when up to 12 may be carried;
> (ii) all cylinders shall be adequately secured against movement of the ship;
> (iii) the supply shall be shut off at the cylinders during the entire voyage;
> (iv) leaking and inadequately secured or connected cylinders should not be offered for shipment; and
> (v) no pierced expendable cartridge shall be carried in any vehicle and any such cartridge shall be safely disposed of prior to shipment of the vehicle.
> (c) Passengers shall not be allowed access to any vehicle after loading except in the presence of a ship's officer or member of the crew of any Vessel.
> Breach of Regulations 21. Any breach of the Regulations referred to or contained in Conditions 19 and 20, as to which breach the Company, its employees and/or agents acting reasonably shall be the sole judge, shall entitle the Company to refuse shipment and to take such other reasonable action as may be deemed necessary to ensure the safety of its Vessels, Passengers, crew and cargo. The Owner who is in breach shall be liable for any loss, damage and/or injury arising from such breach sustained by the Company, its employees and/or agents and all payments made to the Company for the intended
> shipment and carriage such as are frustrated by such breach shall be forfeited by such Owner to the Company (and credited by the Company towards the amount of such loss, damage and/or injury).


So I think that counts me out of the fibbing.

BTW Seafrance do not require advance notice in the Ts&Cs on their site, nor do they mention turning the gas off. But they do state this on the FAQ page.



> Do you ship vehicles which run on Liquified Petroleum Gas (LPG)?
> 
> Vehicles converted to LPG or camper vans carrying LPG cylinders are accepted for shipment onboard our ferries. Please note, vehicles are limited to carrying one LPG cylinder and must isolate it during the crossing.


Not crossed the channel yet, but will note this for when/if I do.


----------



## short-stick

Come on chaps, you seem to have missed my point earlier. Leave the gas on, and stay in the van.... Then you're there to sort out any issues if they arise... Minor issue that they lock the vehicle deck doors remotely so you can't get up onto the ship so you'll sink with it, but that'll make sure you stay awaye and watch out for any gas or naked flame issues during the journey!
I think the ferry companies are missing a niche market, motorhome only decks where you stay in the van, no need for shops toilets, bar or cabins on the ferry, more space for vehicles!


----------



## Mrplodd

AH Shortstick, your last post has just switched a light on inside my head!!

I NOW realise why overnight cross channel ferries INSIST on us motorhomers booking a cabin  , if we didnt we coud use our own facilities and not boost their profits further !! Cunning b*st*rds  

I beleive that on many of teh Greek ferries you can actually book a deck berth so you can use ALL of your own facilities, seems like a good idea to me. I bet the "'elf and safety" Stasi would have something to say about that here dont you??

The PROBABILITY of the flame from our fridges causing a fire or providing the ignition for a fire are so low as to be non existant. Its a bit like "You must not use your mobile phone on a petrol station forecourt" the reason given is that it "might cause a spark!!" 

Now correct me if I am wrong but when you go to start your vehicle there are a LOT of (sometimes rather big) sparks generated inside the starter motor are there not ?? How about the alternator, theer is very often a bit of sparking going on in there as well  

Its the nanny state yet again !!


----------



## SpeedyDux

I can see where this is heading ...

The inalienable right of MHers to light their BBQs and cook on the vehicle deck during the crossing! Why don't the ferry companies recognise this right? Surely they can see that the risk is minimal. 

So let's all get our BBQs and Lafumas out as soon as the bow doors are closed. Party on, chaps!


SD :wink:


----------



## Hobbyfan

Personally speaking, if there's a fire on board or some other calamity, I do not want to be sealed in the vehicle hold with my motor-home!

I think you'll find that the ferry operators that allow camping on board, and it's not all of the Greek operators by any means, have the motor-homes on an outside deck, which is a different kettle of fish.

I'm happy to be able to wander over the ship and have a meal etc. and have no wish to spend the entire journey like some troglodyte! 

Generally speaking these rules are done for a good reason and not just because people want to be awkward or force us into cabins.


----------



## jonse

*Fridge BOOM BOOM*

I have come to the conclusion that there are a lot of arrogant and selfish people on this site but I suppose one has to live with them unfortunately, Just me me me, It only happens to other not me. I am Out


----------



## aultymer

What is so hard about just turning off the flaming gas?
Is it just bloody mindedness?
Is it a desire to pick and choose which rules to follow?
It cannot be to save a few quid of food in a fridge - no one is that poor, or stupid - are they?


----------



## Hobbyfan

*Re: Fridge BOOM BOOM*



jonse said:


> I have come to the conclusion that there are a lot of arrogant and selfish people on this site but I suppose one has to live with them unfortunately, Just me me me, It only happens to other not me. I am Out


Sad but true! In the last few weeks we've had people moaning because they want to leave after the normal noon departure time when on a site and then there was another chap moaning because he couldn't book onto a site before noon!

Probably never occurred to him that the hour or two before noon is when the wardens clean the shower blocks etc. and haven't time to attend to booking people in. Of course he couldn't possibly suffer the inconvenience of having to park up his 'van and have a brew for a while before going to the site and checking in! God forbid!


----------



## sallytrafic

The prospect of fire at sea is very frightening, the fact that it only happens once in a while doesn't improve things IMHO. So I welcome anything that makes this less likely. 

On the last ferry crossing I made a crew member felt all the fridge exhausts he passed this at 1am. He said to me 'No fridge?' I said yes so he walked around again (I have a 12V compressor fridge) he came back looking puzzled he said "Gas Off?" I said yes, end of, but as I walked away he went around again


----------



## camper69

*Re: Fridge BOOM BOOM*



Hobbyfan said:


> Sad but true! In the last few weeks we've had people moaning because they want to leave after the normal noon departure time when on a site and then there was another chap moaning because he couldn't book onto a site before noon!


Why are they incompatable? There is more than one warden on site. What's the problem if there is space

Derek


----------



## aultymer

> What's the problem if there is space


I have no doubt you have noticed that on many campsites the approach road is difficult enough without meeting another unit.
If everyone thats going is out by 12 and anyone coming in waits till 1 there is one less problem for you, as a driver, to deal with.


----------



## Zebedee

aultymer said:


> I have no doubt you have noticed that on many campsites the approach road is difficult enough without meeting another unit.
> If everyone thats going is out by 12 and anyone coming in waits till 1 there is one less problem for you, as a driver, to deal with.


Quite so Aultymer . . . and if two twin axle caravans meet in the middle at 11.00am you would be lucky to get onto the site by noon anyway!! 8O

Maybe it's a fairly sensible rule after all!! :roll: :roll:

Dave


----------



## Hobbyfan

*Re: Fridge BOOM BOOM*



camper69 said:


> Hobbyfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sad but true! In the last few weeks we've had people moaning because they want to leave after the normal noon departure time when on a site and then there was another chap moaning because he couldn't book onto a site before noon!
> 
> 
> 
> Why are they incompatable? There is more than one warden on site. What's the problem if there is space
> 
> Derek
Click to expand...

They're not necessarily incompatible but it's quite amusing to think that there is one pitch that's occupied by some bloke who thinks that he should be able to stay longer than the allotted departure time whilst there's another one moaning that he wants to be able to occupy that pitch before the departure time!

Some sites do not have assistant wardens and if they do they have days off. Also the sites that are big enough to have two wardens are usually the larger ones that have more than one toilet block.

I was on the Bristol CC site a couple of weeks ago and there was one warden and his wife. They cleaned the toilet blocks between 10.30 am and noon and I'm not so selfish that I think that they should have to interrupt their work to keep booking in outfits that insist on arriving early.

And this is the point that's been alluded to earlier in this thread, that many people are just too self centred or selfish to accept that some site rules are there for a good reason and are unhappy if their own desires can't be gratified.

The Bristol CC site is very tight and has no late- or early-arrivals area so having a load of people rolling up early causes a huge problem, especially if you have another load of people trying to stay later than they should.

However, a few days later we were on the Cirencester CC site, which is very large and even in mid-July had lots of empty pitches. The site's leaflet specifically stared that there should be no problem if anyone wished to stay later than the normal departure time.

To me this proved that the CC in particular is happy to oblige if circumstances allow. But they don't always! One site in Scotland had a tortuous and narrow access road and outfits trying to leave before noon would have had a nightmare if other outfits were accessing the site early. There's usually good reasons for some of the rules but many people people seem unwilling to try to understand them.

Edited to say: I'm glad to say that whilst I was typing this two other people made the same point about narrow access roads!


----------



## Zebedee

*Re: Fridge BOOM BOOM*



Hobbyfan said:


> Edited to say: I'm glad to say that whilst I was typing this two other people made the same point about narrow access roads!


Seems transparently obvious to me Hobby - but I'm only a simple country yokel!! :roll:

I entirely agree with all the other points you made in your excellent post, but I think you are forgetting one little detail . . . . . . . some people are more important than others!! 8O :roll:

Dave


----------



## TDG

aultymer said:


> ....no one is that.....stupid - are they?


We're seeing a lot of documented evidence that they are 8O


----------



## Telbell

.....And still no NorfolkLInes or P & O customers come on and assure as that they always tell the Companies that they have gas on board, first when they book, and again when they board..... "after all the rules are there for a good reason" aren''t they?? 

There you are-you can choose which rules you can break- and those you can keep. 

But be wary of being called a "Liar" :wink:


----------



## wp1234

rupert1 said:


> [quote
> 
> Yes and someone who used one of the EHU hookups you suggested might have a faulty cable which then catches fire sets light to your van, spreads to surrounding vehicles etc. Please this is descending into fantasy land,quote]
> 
> http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/SB3_10.pdf
> 
> Yeh right ! Im out


----------



## Annsman

Not only the Norfolk Line & P&O passengers need to get "honest", but so do all thoise Sea France passengers who ignore their 1 cylinder per vehicle!

There can be no one alive that hasn't broken a rule they think is silly or "doesn't mean me". We all make decisions every day that rely on a certain amount of risk assessment. The chances of getting killed on route to the ferry port in a road accident are greater than the chances of getting blown up or burnt to death in a ferry fire caused by someone leaving their fridge on gas for the crossing. 

So let's not start the name calling and accusing of each other.


----------



## wp1234

Annsman said:


> There can be no one alive that hasn't broken a rule they think is silly or "doesn't mean me". We all make decisions every day that rely on a certain amount of risk assessment.
> quote]
> 
> Agree with you entirely assuming of course one knows the subject and more importantly understands the risks involved in the first place.
> Folks sometimes selfish attitude to rules and regulations is probably why there are so many irritating do's and don't around nowadays.
> 
> Me when i know little about the subject I stick to the rules if I can , but hey to each his own !


----------



## TDG

Annsman said:


> ..............The chances of getting killed on route to the ferry port in a road accident are greater than the chances of getting blown up or burnt to death in a ferry fire caused by someone leaving their fridge on gas for the crossing.......


Meaningless unless you multiply the"chance" by the consequence :roll: 
One person killed on the motor way......... 100s killed on ferry8O 
I've just remembered why I used to think passengers were the greatest Health & Safety risk when I was a Ship Manager 

PS Anyone keen to be one of the 100s :?: :roll:


----------



## terrydactyl

We have used the ferry to Lerwick and can report that the fridge was perfectly OK when turned off. It is probably cold enough on board to not be a problem! We did stuff the freezer full of food expecting there to be little in the way of shops on Shetland but need not have worried, the shops there are excellent and not much more expensive than the mainland
Terry and Ann


----------



## Stanner

Annsman said:


> We all make decisions every day that rely on a certain amount of risk assessment.


I guess the Master of the "Herald of Free Enterprise" thought much like you - any relation?

To assess a risk you have to have some appreciation of the extent of that risk.


----------



## TDG

Stanner said:


> ....I guess the Master of the "Herald of Free Enterprise" thought much like you - any relation?.....


The evidence mounts :roll: 
I was involved on the periphery of the HoFE disaster and >20 years later the memories remains........


----------



## barryd

What on earth would you have in the fridge at the beginning (or end for that matter) of a trip thats so perishable anyway? Milk??

Most stuff would be ok for 12 hours anyway but Im more interested in what your fridge would be stuffed with. We would probably have next to nothing in ours.


----------



## Telbell

> The evidence mounts Rolling Eyes


I don't think there's any doubt that IF there were some sort of accident on a ship the consequences may well be serious.

The disagreement on here though seems to revolve around the risk of leaving a gas bottle open to the cause of an accident

The interesting link above, provided by wp1234 shows that the cause of that fire was electrical, on a freight vehicle.

Ok- definitive evidence of the cause- so do we all now refuse to park up alongside a freight carrier if we're asked to by the "loaders"?


----------



## aultymer

> Ok- definitive evidence of the cause- so do we all now refuse to park up alongside a freight carrier if we're asked to by the "loaders"?


No we don't.
But, if a lazy or thoughtless, motorhomers van had been parked among the trailers with the gas left on, then the firemans job would have been even more dangerous when the tubing from said gas cylinder melted and released gas. 
The regulations have, I suspect, little to do with the fridge pilot but lots to do with the sometimes rubber hose between a cylinder and regulator which will rupture in the event of a fire.

Once again I have to ask what is so valuable in your fridge that you argue so strongly about leaving the gas on.


----------



## TDG

Methinks that a lot of the thinking in this thread is similar to that which was a major contributor to the BP Macondo well disaster in the Gulf of Mexico


----------



## Telbell

> Once again I have to ask what is so valuable in your fridge that you argue so strongly about leaving the gas on.


I do not argue "strongly" about leaving the gas on -please see my previous Posts.

But the argument that leaving a Pilot Light on is critical to the prevention of an explosion, is not strong either. We can debate the "what If's" scenarios till the cows come home.

The fact remains though that there IS evidence of fire caused by electrical issues on freight vehicles, so I believe my question to those who have particular risk concerns, about parking alongside freight carriers is a reasonable one.


----------



## Stanner

TDG said:


> Methinks that a lot of the thinking in this thread is similar to that which was a major contributor to the BP Macondo well disaster in the Gulf of Mexico


......................And Buncefield storage depot. :roll:

Getting diesel yesterday at a Shell Filling Station 3 coppers in a patrol car pulled in after a young lad on a moped and started giving him the nth degree - one of them stood right in the middle of all the pumps and used his radio (nowadays just a very powerful cellphone) to check the lads details.

I was in the shop by then and asked the attendant if Police radio/cellphones were any safer to use than ordinary cellphones - he just rolled his eyes and said they had complained before about it but to no avail.

Alright the risk may be absolutely miniscule, but unfortunately as we have seen so many times miniscule risks have a habit of turning round and biting back - time after time after time.

Just what is so important to be worth even a miniscule risk of what could easily become a massive disaster.


----------



## Annsman

From what I remember about the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster it was absolutely nothing to do with anyone from the ships' master to the passengers taking a risk, calculated or otherwise, with the safety of the ship. It was caused by the crew member, who was responsible for making sure the forward car deck doors were closed, not being on his post and being asleep in his cabin. The officers on the bridge couldn't tell the doord were open because they couldn't see them, the company hadn't fitted CCTV to the bridge to assist in this and the door open alarms not working properly. So that is a spurious argument.

As for the comment by TDG about the road deaths, there are literally thousands killed and injured on the roads each year in the UK alone and the HoFE was over 20 years ago so the road death/injury comparison you make is just silly.

The firemen Aultymer is worried about would have more than a rubber hose melting to worry about! Your entire van and probably all the other vehicles, including other cargo carrying lorries near the lorry too would have burst into flames and /or melted by then anyway rupturing the fuel tanks and creating think black toxic smoke and intense heat. This would make it too hot and dangerous for them to enter the car deck and they would rely on the ships fire protection systems to flood the decks with inert gas or any sprinkler systems to do the job. 

UK fire fighters don't fight fires at sea anyway. It was stopped about 30 years ago because it was too dangerous. The ship, if it can, makes it's way to a port and the incident is dealt with there. If the ship is at sea the captain makes the decision to abandon it, and it is then salvaged or sinks. if it is a port the harbour master makes the decision.


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## locovan

http://www.motorhomeplanet.co.uk/archives/2499

It is a rule so its there for a safety reason
Finally, remember that you cannot use gas on board ferries or in the tunnel.* Your motorhome's gas supply must be turned off at the bottles before boarding.* If you're worried about the temperature inside your fridge, here are a few tips:

â- If you're only taking a short crossing (e.g. Dover-Calais or the tunnel), then don't worry. Assuming it's cold to start with, your fridge will easily stay cold during the crossing
â- For longer crossings, consider putting some frozen ice packs or bottles of water/milk/fruit juice into the fridge before leaving home. Pre-chill the fridge at home on mains hookup if you can and make sure it's running on 12V during the journey to the ferry port. You can also run it on gas while you are waiting to board, but make sure you turn off the gas before boarding. Above all, don't open the fridge before boarding and it will stay suprisingly cold, even on an overnight crossing.
â- If you need the fridge to stay constantly cold - because of storing medicines, for example - then contact the ferry company beforehand and ask if any mains hookup points are available on the vehicle decks. Some ferries do have a limited number of these available - some refrigerated lorries require them.


----------



## TDG

Annsman said:


> From what I remember about the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster it was absolutely nothing to do with anyone from the ships' master to the passengers taking a risk, calculated or otherwise, with the safety of the ship. It was caused by the crew member, who was responsible for making sure the forward car deck doors were closed, not being on his post and being asleep in his cabin. The officers on the bridge couldn't tell the doord were open because they couldn't see them, the company hadn't fitted CCTV to the bridge to assist in this and the door open alarms not working properly. So that is a spurious argument.
> 
> As for the comment by TDG about the road deaths, there are literally thousands killed and injured on the roads each year in the UK alone and the HoFE was over 20 years ago so the road death/injury comparison you make is just silly.
> 
> The firemen Aultymer is worried about would have more than a rubber hose melting to worry about! Your entire van and probably all the other vehicles, including other cargo carrying lorries near the lorry too would have burst into flames and /or melted by then anyway rupturing the fuel tanks and creating think black toxic smoke and intense heat. This would make it too hot and dangerous for them to enter the car deck and they would rely on the ships fire protection systems to flood the decks with inert gas or any sprinkler systems to do the job.
> 
> UK fire fighters don't fight fires at sea anyway. It was stopped about 30 years ago because it was too dangerous. The ship, if it can, makes it's way to a port and the incident is dealt with there. If the ship is at sea the captain makes the decision to abandon it, and it is then salvaged or sinks. if it is a port the harbour master makes the decision.


It was all about the Master- he is the one that sets the operating standards.


----------



## Annsman

You're right on that point TDG, but I was just trying to make the point that the incident wasn't caused by anyone taking a risk with the safety of the ship. Their procedures were wrong from the start.


----------



## Telbell

> It is a rule so its there for a safety reason


So is INFORMING THE FERRY COMPANY BOTH WHEN YOU BOOK AND WHEN YOU BOARD THAT YOU ARE CARRYING GAS CYLINDERS


----------



## locovan

On the tunnel when booking in they inspect your cylinders and make sure they are turned off and put a inspection ticket on them.
What do they do on the Ferry --well they didnt do anything when we boarded Irish Ferry's but they know all Motorhomes and caravans have them.


----------



## locovan

TDG said:


> Annsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> From what I remember about the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster it was absolutely nothing to do with anyone from the ships' master to the passengers taking a risk, calculated or otherwise, with the safety of the ship. It was caused by the crew member, who was responsible for making sure the forward car deck doors were closed, not being on his post and being asleep in his cabin. The officers on the bridge couldn't tell the doord were open because they couldn't see them, the company hadn't fitted CCTV to the bridge to assist in this and the door open alarms not working properly. So that is a spurious argument.
> 
> As for the comment by TDG about the road deaths, there are literally thousands killed and injured on the roads each year in the UK alone and the HoFE was over 20 years ago so the road death/injury comparison you make is just silly.
> 
> The firemen Aultymer is worried about would have more than a rubber hose melting to worry about! Your entire van and probably all the other vehicles, including other cargo carrying lorries near the lorry too would have burst into flames and /or melted by then anyway rupturing the fuel tanks and creating think black toxic smoke and intense heat. This would make it too hot and dangerous for them to enter the car deck and they would rely on the ships fire protection systems to flood the decks with inert gas or any sprinkler systems to do the job.
> 
> UK fire fighters don't fight fires at sea anyway. It was stopped about 30 years ago because it was too dangerous. The ship, if it can, makes it's way to a port and the incident is dealt with there. If the ship is at sea the captain makes the decision to abandon it, and it is then salvaged or sinks. if it is a port the harbour master makes the decision.
> 
> 
> 
> It was all about the Master- he is the one that sets the operating standards.
Click to expand...

The subsequent inquiry, chaired by Mr Justice Sheen, identified a catalogue of errors, not only in the design of the ship but also in its management, which was found to be suffering from a "disease of sloppiness".

The crew member responsible for closing the bow doors had been asleep when the ferry sailed. And, the report revealed, five Townsend Thoresen ferries had sailed with their bow doors open in the four years prior to the disaster; management had ignored suggestions from captains to stop this happening.


----------



## peribro

I guess that soon someone will want to argue that it's safe to light up and have a BBQ on the car deck on a ferry. One thought for those who like to leave their gas on - I wouldn't fancy your insurance renewal premiums if there ever was a fire and your van was deemed to have played a part in it. I suspect that criminal charges could also be brought (including manslaughter if there was loss of life), if it could be proved that you had knowingly left your gas on. For my part, I would prefer to either travel with an empty fridge or take the necessary steps with ice packs etc etc.


----------



## TDG

Stanner said:


> .....To assess a risk you have to have some appreciation of the extent of that risk.


Absolutely :!: 
A small probability with a catastropic consequence is a major risk hazard ........but that won't be of interest to those ignoring sensible precautions to reduce the probability the smallest practical level :x


----------



## Zebedee

Telbell said:


> So is INFORMING THE FERRY COMPANY BOTH WHEN YOU BOOK AND WHEN YOU BOARD THAT YOU ARE CARRYING GAS CYLINDERS


Calm down Dear . . . it's only a forum!! :wink: :lol:

_(Whoops - try again. Hit the submit button too soon.)_

But seriously though, what on earth is all the fuss about!!

Going abroad is, to a greater or lesser degree, all about enjoying the local cuisine. 

So who takes a fridge full of perishable British food? :roll:

During a wander around the first town or village the delicious local produce is bound to appeal, and after a couple of days the stuff in the fridge will be turfed out to make room for the beer, wine and local fresh goodies. 8)

We take one simple meal in the fridge - usually a curry or a chilli - just to make our first full meal quick and easy if we don't want to stop and shop straight away. I bet most seasoned travellers do the same!!

So all this aggro about leaving the fridge switched on is a lot of hot air really . . . and not all of it is coming out of the fridge vent!!! :wink: :lol:

Cool it please folks (awful pun intended :roll: ) we have had enough fisticuffs recently. :wink:

Zebedee/Dave :lol:


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## TDG

Annsman said:


> You're right on that point TDG, but I was just trying to make the point that the incident wasn't caused by anyone taking a risk with the safety of the ship. Their procedures were wrong from the start.


 :?: :?: :?: 
If there was no risk that the ship could turn over, how did ship turn over :?: 
On a general point, up until that time it was often the case that vessels left the berth with the doors deliberately left open to clear the fumes from the car decks.


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## wp1234

Annsman said:


> This would make it too hot and dangerous for them to enter the car deck and they would rely on the ships fire protection systems to flood the decks with inert gas or any sprinkler systems to do the job.
> 
> UK fire fighters don't fight fires at sea anyway. It was stopped about 30 years ago because it was too dangerous. The ship, if it can, makes it's way to a port and the incident is dealt with there. If the ship is at sea the captain makes the decision to abandon it, and it is then salvaged or sinks. if it is a port the harbour master makes the decision.


Wrong on so many counts. Inert gas on passenger car decks i don't think so ! 
The Captain remains in charge of his ship alongside even if there is a fire aboard and it is only when its abandoned does it fall under the authority of the Harbourmaster.

UK fire fighters do fight fires at sea - specific drills are held aboard ferries at sea every year , they operate from RAF helo's - and a fine job they do !

http://www.fireservice.co.uk/articles/mirg.php


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## TDG

This thread seems to have descended to the level that I would probably take it if I insisted on pontificating about, say, the risks of rail travel in India or the relative merits of air or oxygen atmospheres in manned space craft :roll:


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## rupert1

Like Telbell I to have no great problem with turning my gas off if it makes all you very nervous people who have never taken the slightest, even non existent risk happy. When the question was first posed I just stated I left it on. As my gas stays on all the time except when van is stored, it never occurred to turn it off, why would I as their is little/ no risk in doing this. Not a question of flouting rules, as I have always tried to ignore the dafter health and safety stuff. However as the argument on here as gone more and more into the realms of fantasy I have just joined in, always enjoyed a good argument. I do wish though that people would read back over a thread before joining in, it keeps being suggested that you ask for EHU when their are proven cases of electrical fires on ships, although none I am aware of being started by a fridge. Another point, although the fridge will stay cool for a channel crossing why do people keep on about why stock it up. Not sure how big your fridges are but mine does not take much filling. My wife always seems to cram it full, although like most we buy a lot more fresh, especially fruit and veg in France than at home. We always have few frozen items for emergency use, last year in Tarn gorge during middle September we had a job to find any food shops open so always carry backup stocks. We always take a stock of good Cheddar cheese, some for French friends who love it, nothing comparable in France, some fresh milk, which is rare outside supermarkets in France and we rarely shop in first couple of days. So yes our fridge is crammed full, we do like our food and are experienced travellers.


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## aultymer

Whats wrong with rail travel in India TDG?
We have booked 2 weeks of it in November!!


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## TDG

aultymer said:


> Whats wrong with rail travel in India TDG?
> We have booked 2 weeks of it in November!!


I could have said Siberia, Gemany,Napal, Chile, Ireland..... 
My knowledge of rail safety in each is very similar - very little. But that's the point I thought I was making but obviously not well enough


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## Telbell

> Calm down Dear . . . it's only a forum!! Wink Laughing


Only replicating Mavis's capitals and "Bolds" Dave ("Dear") - though for some reason the "Bolds" wouldn't come out :wink:


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## locovan

Telbell said:


> Calm down Dear . . . it's only a forum!! Wink Laughing
> 
> 
> 
> Only replicating Mavis's capitals and "Bolds" Dave ("Dear") - though for some reason the "Bolds" wouldn't come out :wink:
Click to expand...

Oh dont blame me    
I just wanted to show it really is a big Rule and you have to shut the gas off :wink:


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## Telbell

> I just wanted to show it really is a big Rule and you have to shut the gas off Wink


Ditto....and you have to tell the Operators you';re carrying Gas :wink: :wink:

(bit of "sexism" here- Dave didn't admonish you...."dear" :lol: :lol: )


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## short-stick

Rupert1 I applaud your summary and your honesty. Some people really do get far too anxious about things when in the main, common sense manages quite well without rules to guide them. I can best summarise this by mentioning a light controlled crossing. If there is no traffic but the red man is on, do you cross or wait?


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## TDG

short-stick said:


> .... I can best summarise this by mentioning a light controlled crossing. If there is no traffic but the red man is on, do you cross or wait?


 :idea: 
Ah :!: 
The apples and pears have turned up again :roll:


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## Penquin

Just to add a touch of levity (I hope!), I was on a Kenya Scareways, sorry Kenya Airways (!  ) on an internal flight from Malindi to Nairobi.........

Once we were airborne the crew suddenly all rushed to the back of the aircraft, why we all wondered?

A small group of Kenya travellers who had never flown before were on the floor by the toilet trying hard to light a selection of sticks that they called a campfire!   8O 

They wanted a snack during the flight and were going to cook a piece of meat over the fire...

It took the flight attendants quite a while to convince them that doing so was not really a good idea - they found it difficult to understand what the problem was? They always cooked over a fire and had never had a problem :lol: :lol: 

The rest of us were heartily relieved that the crew had noticed the smoke at the back of the cabin......

Their understanding of risk needed some enlightening...

Oh well, we survived......

Dave

PS This is totally true and occurred in October 1997, funnily enough I have not been with that airline since...

although of course they prevented the disaster happening by their prompt action!   8O


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## TDG

Penquin said:


> ......PS This is totally true and occurred in October 1997, funnily enough I have not been with that airline since...


Can believe that :!: 
I've done that trip a couple of times - the last one Feb.2003 when we were delayed in Malindi for about 4 hours for them to send another plane from Nairobi with a couple of starting batteries 8O 
I also recall that the K A flights taking off from Heathrow warranted the standard safety briefing but such formalities were deemed unnecessary when leaving Nairobi :roll: 
Hell .... how did we get to Malindi from fridges and ferries :?: 
And I usually the first to complain about deviation :!: :roll:


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## dct67

Just crossed from Karlskrona to Gdynia with Stena Line. 

I was issued with (at check-in)
- a strip of yellow tape
- a yellow triangular sticker
- a leaflet instructing me to turn off my gas cylinders and advising me how to apply the stickers (in a number of languages)

So they take it seriously anyway!

I followed the instructions, and was prepared, with a frozen 1.5L bottle of water for the fridge. Both fridge and freezer were fine after the 10 hour crossing.

David


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## Grizzly

Oh my ! I go away for a few days and come back to find that I've been called _ holy _, _ Mr Grizzly _ ( no, I'm Mrs...) and 8 new pages have been added to the post.

Telbell seems determined to make me say that I aways declare that I am carrying gas cylinders: well yes, we do. We book a passage for a motorhome, we have big red stickers declaring that we carry LPG stuck on the side of it and there are few employees of any ferry company who are not aware of what this adds up to. They know this at the point of booking.

As to Greek ferries and camping on board: I travelled on 2 no more than 2 months ago and there were big notices on the camperdeck to the effect that gas was not to be used. I even began a thread to MHF on the subject but it was not answered so can't be that interesting! :

HERE

As to the accusation of lying; what else would you call it ? There is a lot of evidence on this forum that some people see it as a badge of honour almost to mis-declare ( aka lie about) the length of their motorhome when booking a ferry, about mods made to their MH to their insurance company, parking, switching off their gas on board even when they know about the rule etc etc. I can declare an interest in this not being a good thing as it results in an increase in insurance premiums for the rest of us !

G


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## Telbell

> We book a passage for a motorhome, we have big red stickers declaring that we carry LPG stuck on the side of it and there are few employees of any ferry company who are not aware of what this adds up to. They know this at the point of booking.


Thanks G- and I'd like to say it clarifies things-but 'fraid not.

When you say "they know this at time of booking" I assume you mean they know you are carrying gas?

But the T&C's of the companies I quoted don't say ".....inform us if you are carrying gas except if you are a motorhomer as we know you are..."

So at what stage when you book do you tell them? My last four bookings have all been on-line, and there's no provision for additional information to state that I'm carrying gas. So I assume that to take me outside your definition of "liar" I would need to follow up by online booking with a phone call?

Exactly at what stage of your booking do you tell them you're carrying gas? (as required by the T&C's)

The "big red stickers" are interesting. On our last few trips I honestly can't remember seeing one M/home or caravan showing these. I suppose, at a stretch, the presence of those stickers could be construed as "informing the Operator that you are carrying gas on boarding"

So there are hundreds of us on here that appear to be liars, for not telling the Operators we're carrying gas, either at booking or at boarding or both.

Are you absolutely sure you're not one of us?

:wink:


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## Grizzly

Telbell said:


> Exactly at what stage of your booking do you tell them you're carrying gas? (as required by the T&C's)


I've always declared and booked us as a motorhome. I don't attempt to delude them into thinking we're a car or a commercial van. Implicit in this is the fact that we carry gas. We turn it off too, as common sense dictates and not only because we've agreed to their terms of passage.



> The "big red stickers" are interesting. On our last few trips I honestly can't remember seeing one M/home or caravan showing these. I suppose, at a stretch, the presence of those stickers could be construed as "informing the Operator that you are carrying gas on boarding"


Well all I can say is that I have seen plenty - in fact all MH or caravans I've seen today on site have had such a sticker. It's diamond shaped, has the letters LPG and a gas cylinder logo. I assumed it was a legal requirement to have one on the gas locker door and was concerned about replacing ours as it is coming unstuck where we washed the van. Still, if it is not necessary then perhaps I'll not bother ! Swift put it on ours so I assumed they knew too. I've always assumed they were to inform anyone coming across the van after an accident as to where the gas cylinders were.



> Are you absolutely sure you're not one of us?


 They do say that it takes one to know one but, in this instance, I'm absolutely sure.

Now, rather than carrying on this rather fruitless OT argument in public and boring others perhaps you'd like to continue in private via a PM ?

G


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## Telbell

> I've always declared and booked us as a motorhome. I don't attempt to delude them into thinking we're a car or a commercial van. Implicit in this is the fact that we carry gas.


Not enough though is it, according to the T&C's. You must inform them you are carrying gas. Rules are Rules aren't they? :wink:

Don't have a big red sticker on ours. Interesting point.

So if you take yours off, you'd have to tell someone "on boarding" that you're carrying gas! Which I don't- and does anyone?

So anyone without the big red stickers are all liars too :wink:


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## Grizzly

Pure semantics dear boy and stop trying to provoke me as you're not succeeding !  :roll: 

Incidentally the sticker is not a legal requirement unless the vehicle is a commercial one but that seems to be an omission more honoured in the breach apparently as van dealers/ convertors do put them on. It seems also that they do come off easily.

Perhaps you're right. All without big red stickers are liars. I'm glad we've got a big red sticker.

G


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## rupert1

Guess it was me who called you Mr, sorry about that Mrs/Miss Grizzly. Note you are still evading Telbell question about a declaration of carrying gas though.


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## wp1234

Toys are really coming out of the pram now!!!!


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## gholt417

I guess this is what you call bear baiting


Sorry I just couldn't help it.


Graham


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## sallytrafic

Come on this is descending into a George Telford sort of debate. 

Surely this thread is not about T&C and/or the possibility/impossibility of informing the Ferry company at the time of booking. 

Its to do with using a device that has a flame on the vehicle decks. 

I am happy, asked or not, labelled or not, that I turn off the gas at the cylinder before I go on a Ferry.

Its a low risk of a problem but as its so easy to switch off any Risk Assessment would naturally require you to mitigate that risk still further by carrying out the simple action.

Which leaves you with what to do with your fridge or freezer and as many have said its simple. If you want to mitigate the small risk of food poisoning don't travel with short dated produce even if frozen and invest in a fridge freezer thermometer. 


Incidentally and very selfishly the food risk is of course contained to you and yours the fire risk affects all on the Ferry. So take risks with your life not mine


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## Zebedee

Thank you Frank. 

Saved me showing the flag . . .









Incidentally, and to immediately ignore my own flag (  ) we were told by a French resident last year that it's a €400 on-the-spot fine in France if you are caught travelling with the gas cyclinder switched on (_unless you have one of those safety impact switch off devices whose name I can't remember.) _:roll:

Dave


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## Grizzly

rupert1 said:


> . Note you are still evading Telbell question about a declaration of carrying gas though.


How do you know it's not been dealt with via PM ?!

What question anyway ? Can you not read the replies ? I don't think I can make it any more explicit.

G


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## rupert1

Grizzly said:


> rupert1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> . Note you are still evading Telbell question about a declaration of carrying gas though.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know it's not been dealt with via PM ?!
> 
> What question anyway ? Can you not read the replies ? I don't think I can make it any more explicit.
> 
> G
Click to expand...

Yes I can read replies, it seems to be you who cannot read the question. I would remind you that it was you called everyone liars who ticked the terms and condition box but then left the gas on. The question was; in the terms and conditions it also state's you had to inform the company if you had gas on board. Now just because you are in a M/H or have a sticker on the van is NOT informing the company.


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## Telbell

> Pure semantics dear boy and stop trying to provoke me as you're not succeeding ! Smile Rolling Eyes


...."Dear Boy" eh? Ah well :roll:

Grizzly
I've gained a lot from your helpful replies to me and other Posters over the years and I've been happy to thank you for those replies. However your "liars" Post did surprise and disappoint me. To be honest I did find it a tad offensive, though to hit the "report" button I think would have been OTT. (Oh and Dave-Zeb- I'm not sure whether the offence was intended or not so I'm not sure what B.Y. would have made of that....hee 

No- I'm not trying to provoke you into anything. You have been quick to quote from T&C's in this thread in order to prove a point so why shouldn't I do the same.

As I now understand you correctly, you don't bother informing the Ferry Operator (at time of booking) that you will be carrying gas because you are booking as a Motorhome. My point is that the T&C's don't provide for "exceptions".

So- when it suits you, you are happy to call it "Semantics" :roll: having called those who fail to keep to T&C's "liars".

The relative seriousness (subjective) of the T&C is irrelevant, and sorry Frank, Dave and others, but for me this thread went beyond the title of the thread as soon as Grizzly mentioned the "L" word.

Before I finish this post (my last of this thread) just one more thing...

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, "

In other words, be careful who, and how, you slag off or your words may come back to bite you in the a..e :wink:


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## peribro

I feel sorry for anyone new to this site who genuinely wants to find out what to do with their fridge when travelling on a ferry. If they alight upon this thread, then I reckon that about 15% of the 117 odd posts have addressed the topic and one wonders what a new visitor to the site would make of the other 85% of the posts?


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## TDG

I seem to remember when the kids didn't seem to be able to stop themselves asking " Are we there yet?"
Now I don't seem to be able to stop myself asking "Has he gone yet?" :roll:


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## Zebedee

This thread has now been reported so the Moderators are obliged to consider taking action.

If it does not either end now (_not before time_!! :roll: ) or get back to more or less on topic in a civilised manner, I shall close it for discussion by the Admin Team.

Enough is enough, and plenty of suggestions and warnings have been given and ignored.

Wandering off topic in a long thread is understandable, but the acrimony is quite unnecessary.

Zebedee
For the Moderating Team


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## rupert1

Zebedee said:


> This thread has now been reported so the Moderators are obliged to consider taking action.
> 
> If it does not either end now (_not before time_!! :roll: ) or get back to more or less on topic in a civilised manner, I shall close it for discussion by the Admin Team.
> 
> Enough is enough, and plenty of suggestions and warnings have been given and ignored.
> 
> Wandering off topic in a long thread is understandable, but the acrimony is quite unnecessary.
> 
> Zebedee
> For the Moderating Team


I tend to agree and wonder why you did not take action when Grizzly started throwing 'liar' remarks around. Until then just a discussion. It would seem the moderators only take action if the person is not a long time member.


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## aultymer

Perhaps most members agreed with Grizzly and therefore did not report her post.
You and you mates on the other hand became quite a pain in the butt with your utterly infantile remarks comparing : not declaring you had gas explicitly when every ship owner (and fireman) must know that caravans and motorcaravans are likely to have gas aboard, and:
not turning off gas when you had previously declared you had, whether by default in not reading T&Cs or by being an idiot.

Second case makes anyone a liar in my book.


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## rupert1

aultymer said:


> Perhaps most members agreed with Grizzly and therefore did not report her post.
> You and you mates on the other hand became quite a pain in the butt with your utterly infantile remarks comparing : not declaring you had gas explicitly when every ship owner (and fireman) must know that caravans and motorcaravans are likely to have gas aboard, and:
> not turning off gas when you had previously declared you had, whether by default in not reading T&Cs or by being an idiot.
> 
> Second case makes anyone a liar in my book.


As I do not know anyone on the forum, as far as I am aware, difficult to see where the 'my mates thing' comes from. Now personally I have never ticked any boxes so this does not apply to me anyway. It was Grizzly who first bought up the terms and condition thing, not me, by calling everyone who ticked the T & C box then left gas on a liar. It was then pointed out that P & O, who Grizzly mentioned, also say in T & C that you have to declare if you are carrying gas. Now the ship owner knowing is not declaring. So you seem to be agreeing with Grizzly that ticking box for one thing makes you a liar but failing to carry out the T & C is fine. Double standards I would say or just infantile remarks. This is a forum, forums are for discussions so you may not agree with everything said, few do. However when members start calling others liars or idiots as you are it is perhaps time to call it a day. After all resorting to insults is a sure sign you have lost the argument.


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## presto

Is it arguments or discussions
Not worth it
PRESTO


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## Sonesta

I have just come across this old thread whilst searching for some info re parking near Holyhead ferry port and must say, having read a few of the posts especially from Rupert, I was gobsmacked!  

Rupert may I ask why you just cannot simply abide by the rules and just turn your flipping gas off? I mean regardless as to whether you consider the rules justified or not - these are the Ferry Company's rules and if we choose to use their service and travel on their vessels, then obey them we all MUST! 

If you don't agree with these rules Rupert, then of course that is your perogative but surely, you should vote with your feet and NOT use these companies to book you travel arrangements with? I respect your need to challenge any rules you consider unfair or irresponsible but to deliberately break them, with no regard for others, is not in my opinion a sensible approach to take and I know if I felt as strongly as you do, I would certainly NOT be so hypocritical as to do business with these companies! Nobody is forcing you to travel with them but like I say, if you decide you wish to continue to do so, then please show respect and accept that they request that ALL passengers travelling in motorhomes must switch off their gas! 

For what it's worth we have no problems switching off the gas when we travel by Ferry and we are happy to accept any rules that the Ferry Company deems necessary for ours and every other passenger and crew members safety! We don't need to be experts in the risk assessments of explosives and inflammables and we feel confident that they make this rule with good reason! IMHO this really isn't a big deal! :roll:

So Rupert - if you read this post ....... Take my advice and instead of spending your Ferry trip gritting your teeth with frustration because you had to do as you are told, why not just switch off your flipping gas and be happy that you are about to embark on a fabulous adventure somewhere in your motorhome? 

Sue


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## Telbell

Sue

The dogs have been sleeping now for almost ten months- let them continue to lie eh? :wink:


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## Sonesta

Telbell said:


> Sue
> 
> The dogs have been sleeping now for almost ten months- let them continue to lie eh? :wink:


Ah but I have only just read this thread my dearest Telbell and after reading some of Rupert's comments, I felt compelled to put fingers to keyboard! 

Nobody need respond to my post if they prefer to let the doggies kip and I wont mind one little bit if mine is the last post (unless you reply) in this thread! :wink:

Happy travels. 

Sue


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