# New Winter -v- Summer tyres comparison by Auto Express.



## Stanner

Both on snow AND also in usual UK wet and cold weather conditions.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/videos/featurevideos/275428/winter_tyres_vs_summer_tyres.html


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## commuter

We have winter tyres on our clio and our c4 7 seater and notice a significant difference in road holding and stability. We will eventually get them for the MH as well but the cost was prohibitive this year.

My wife comes from Germany and is a community midwife so we originally got them to comply when travelling to see family and to ensure she can get out and about when the weather gets bad but we would not travel in winter without them now

It's well worth the investment


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## peedee

Isn't the wear on winter tyres excessive if not driven on snow?

peedee


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## trevd01

peedee said:


> Isn't the wear on winter tyres excessive if not driven on snow?
> 
> peedee


No


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## Stanner

peedee said:


> Isn't the wear on winter tyres excessive if not driven on snow?
> 
> peedee


Not that I've noticed - but anyway what does a little more tread on your tyres matter after you are dead or even just stuck?


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## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

An interesting report. It does highlight to me that if you do not adjust your driving style and speed in conditions of light snow or heavy rain you should definitely buy winter tyres. 
The element that is missing from the report is how the vehicles performed on dry roads. I suspect that the one on winter tyres would perform considerably better than it did in the adverse conditions. If they lead to drivers driving in adverse conditions at the same speeds and style that they do in the dry then they need to be banned not encouraged. 
Our son has lived in Germany during the time that they have become law for adverse conditions and claims that you can soon become complacent about the conditions and that the tyres do have their limitations when compared with how his summer ones perform in the summer.


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## Morphology

I'm having a full set of Continental Vanco Winter 2 tyres fitted tomorrow morning.

I tried to shop around online but, in the end, the best price I could find was £550 fitted & balanced at Kwik Fit.

My previous tyres were Michelin Camping, which were 5 years old so, although they still had plenty of tread, I felt they were due for a change.

I intend to keep these winter tyres on all year round - as I understand it you get increased wear at higher temperatures compared to summer tyres but, considering I only do around 6,000 miles per year, I don't see it as an issue.

I'm hoping it'll help me out in mud too - we had to be towed *on* to the campsite at Glastonbury this year!


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## neilanddot

Any of you run winter tyres all year round, we have such poor traction on grass with our front wheel drive tranny, that it might be a sensible move. Tyre wear isn't such an issue as we all have to change our tyres before the tread is used up.
Neil


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## peedee

neilanddot said:


> Any of you run winter tyres all year round, we have such poor traction on grass with our front wheel drive tranny, that it might be a sensible move. Tyre wear isn't such an issue as we all have to change our tyres before the tread is used up.
> Neil


Good point 

I think the road noise level is increased too but that wouldn't matter in a motorhome either.

peedee


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## joedenise

I run toyo H09 winter tyres all year wear not a problem as they will last 5 years grip on wet grass has improved no end had to get towed on to a cs never had a problem since I changed tyres grip on tarmac is improved to well I think it is.

joe


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## trevd01

I run winters on my Landrover Freelander (Vreidenstein Wintrac 4s) and did on my prvious Volvo V50 (Michelin Alpins).

You would be hard pressed to hear any noise difference, if there is any. Modern winter tyres are not like old 'Town and Countries' with blocky treads, they rely on thousands of tiny 'sipes' that open up to provide grip.


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## peedee

trevd01 said:


> You would be hard pressed to hear any noise difference, if there is any. Modern winter tyres are not like old 'Town and Countries' with blocky treads, they rely on thousands of tiny 'sipes' that open up to provide grip.


Showing my age trevd  Sounds to me as though there is a good case to put winter tyres on a motorhome and leave them on all year.
Are there any speed restrictions? What about overheating?

peedee


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## coppo

Morphology said:


> I'm having a full set of Continental Vanco Winter 2 tyres fitted tomorrow morning.
> 
> I tried to shop around online but, in the end, the best price I could find was £550 fitted & balanced at Kwik Fit.
> 
> My previous tyres were Michelin Camping, which were 5 years old so, although they still had plenty of tread, I felt they were due for a change.
> 
> I intend to keep these winter tyres on all year round - as I understand it you get increased wear at higher temperatures compared to summer tyres but, considering I only do around 6,000 miles per year, I don't see it as an issue.
> 
> I'm hoping it'll help me out in mud too - we had to be towed *on* to the campsite at Glastonbury this year!


You won't regret your choice. We had them on the van we have just px'ed, what wonderful tyres, brilliant for mud, snow,ice. Just had 6 winters on present one, only reason that i didn't get the vanco winter 2 ones was they were £200 each (not including fitting)

Paul.


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## peedee

> Sounds to me as though there is a good case to put winter tyres on a motorhome and leave them on all year.


A Google turned >this page<  up. It appears there is only a 10percent drop off in performance of the winter tyre in the summer.

peedee


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## trek

Kwikfits BUY ONLINE prices seem competitive at the moment

Just bought 4 winter tyres for my car 
The cheapest option when I ordered them was MYTYRES online they took a week to deliver ( received no email to advise of dispatch or eta) then £10 each to fit & balance on my new rims 

just after I ordered them Kwikfit started a 25% discount offer & their pay online prices including fitting was about £20 dearer than the cost of the Mytyres price without fitting for the same Dunlop winter tyre

pleased with Mytyres as these new Dunlops have a manufactured date of 4211 & we are only on week 47 now so only 5 weeks old


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## trevd01

peedee said:


> trevd01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You would be hard pressed to hear any noise difference, if there is any. Modern winter tyres are not like old 'Town and Countries' with blocky treads, they rely on thousands of tiny 'sipes' that open up to provide grip.
> 
> 
> 
> Showing my age trevd  Sounds to me as though there is a good case to put winter tyres on a motorhome and leave them on all year.
> Are there any speed restrictions? What about overheating?
> 
> peedee
Click to expand...

Speed restrictions are the same as any other tyre - the Michelin Alpins I had were rated at V =149mph, the Vriedensteins H = 130mph, both speeds far higher than the cars fitted to are capable of.

Overheating? No.

Its the stopping that impresses you.

A Landrover Freelander like mine on the standard M+S rated tyres will pretty much pull away in snow on most inclines. But stopping in snow, downhill its like driving a 2 tonne sledge. Even inching down the hill from our house to the main road, with hill descent engaged is increasingly scary.

The winter tyres which are M+S *snowflake ^mountain rated, stop as well as go, even downhill. Hill descent does what its meant to.


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## joedenise

Peedee

No speed restrictions as they are exactly the same load and speed ratings as my old Michellin Camping tyres.

Joe


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## trek

if you want to know what its like driving on the artificial snow at the Tamworth Snowdome watch this video

dunlop tyre test at snowdome


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## rogerblack

joedenise said:


> I run toyo H09 winter tyres all year wear not a problem as they will last 5 years grip on wet grass has improved no end had to get towed on to a cs never had a problem since I changed tyres grip on tarmac is improved to well I think it is. joe


Seconded.


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## Wupert

peedee said:


> neilanddot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any of you run winter tyres all year round, we have such poor traction on grass with our front wheel drive tranny, that it might be a sensible move. Tyre wear isn't such an issue as we all have to change our tyres before the tread is used up.
> Neil
> 
> 
> 
> Good point
> 
> I think the road noise level is increased too but that wouldn't matter in a motorhome either.
> 
> peedee
Click to expand...

We run 5 vehicles on winter tyres there is very little increase in noise ..if any


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## raynipper

I run winter tyres on the van all year and the only difference I notice is due to the wider tread they pick up gravel more.
Makes a hell of a noise when leaving a gravel car park.

I'm now looking for winter tyres for the car.
Is it OK to only have winters on the front driving wheels?

Ray.


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## TR5

Ray, you must have the same type of tyre on all axles. Winter and summer will behave differently, particularly on snow, putting you at risk of a spin when braking or harder cornering. The summers will break away much earlier than the winters.


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## Stanner

TR5 said:


> Ray, you must have the same type of tyre on all axles. Winter and summer will behave differently, particularly on snow, putting you at risk of a spin when braking or harder cornering. The summers will break away much earlier than the winters.


FWD





RWD


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## raynipper

OK and thanks Guys.
I guess I will just have to save up and put off buying a whole new set till next year.

Still have 3mm. on the existing set but as we are heading into the 'wilderness' of ole Blighty for Christmas and Jan. Thought I would err on the side of caution.

Ray.


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## IanA

I couldn't get winter tyres when I had to replace my MH ones, so I've just bought a pair of snow socks - had some last year for the car and they were superb. Went out to test them and all the 4x4 drivers were surprised to se a FWD car managing in all the snow.
We're off to Norfolk, Lincoln and Yorkshire at Christmas, so worth buying just in case.


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## neilanddot

Thanks stanner for those links, like Ray I will have to put off buying for a while.
Neil


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## Hezbez

There is a bit of a debate going on as to whether you need to advise your insurance if you change to winter tyres. Some say no because tyres are not a modification, others say err on the safe side and tell them.

I've recently renewed my car insurance and told them I would be changing over to my winter tyres in the next few weeks - no problem and no charge and they noted the policy accordingly.

As has already been said - winter tyres make quite an incredible difference. 

Once the motorhome needs new tyres I'm sure we'll be looking at winters for it too.


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## trek

If your insured with MHF insurance then I would inform them if you are using winter tyres - you don't want to risk voiding your policy by non disclosure


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## joedenise

If you had to inform your insurance co you would have to if you changed from one make to another as long as they are the same or higher rating as recommended there should be no problem

joe


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## trevd01

Do you tell your insurance company when you fit a different brand of summer tyre? No. 

Even if you replace your £200 a tyre top brand with a £75 make you've never heard of, for example?

Why would the insurance company want to know that I have Vreidenstein tyres on my Landrover rather than Continental? They are the same size and speed rating as specified by Landrover. And yes the Vrieidenstein are winters.

Winter tyres are mode of a different rubber compound and have a different tread pattern. Ditto for different makes and models of summer tyres.

What about letting them know that you have changed the brake pads, for example, of a different make to the ones from the factory?

If anything, insurance companies should reduce premiums for people using winter tyres in the UK. But that's not going to happen is it?


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## cronkle

As long as the tyres are legal - right size, weight limits and speed rating etc - why would the insurance company be interested. If there was an accident and one of the above was wrong that might be a different matter.


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## jhelm

Good set of posts. Since we live in the Dolomites and do a far amount of winter travel for skiing and other things I put Michellin winter tires on 3 years ago. I just decided to leave them on all year as I couldn't really afford to buy others and also pay to have them changed twice a year. I also considered that with the limited amount of driving compared to a car they would easily last the 5 or 6 years before we had to change them anyway. They have been just fine and we don't have to worry about driving wherever we want to go in Europe. The notes I read here seem to confirm my decision as well. As far as tread wear goes I believe the new ones don't use as soft a rubber as they did in the past.

Here in Belluno we are required to have them in the winter on all the vehicles, so we just changed over the car as well. I would have to disagree that winter tires don't make more noise, they do. I suppose that it depends a lot on the brand of tire. I notice it the most in the car. Also in the camper, with the typical Fiat front wheel drive, traction is better with the winter tires, but we still have to put on chains at times, generally just when on side roads going uphill with ice, or when exiting a parking area after being parked there for a night or two. I am wondering if it would help to park on the traction mats or sprinkle gravel under the area we put the tires on.


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## Hezbez

trevd01 said:


> ...insurance companies should reduce premiums for people using winter tyres in the UK. But that's not going to happen is it?


I've read that some companies are suggesting that winter tyres may *increase* risk - because people who would not normally venture out in their vehicle in bad weather will do so because they feel more confident. Speed may also increase.


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## trevd01

Hezbez said:


> trevd01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...insurance companies should reduce premiums for people using winter tyres in the UK. But that's not going to happen is it?
> 
> 
> 
> I've read that some companies are suggesting that winter tyres may *increase* risk - because people who would not normally venture out in their vehicle in bad weather will do so because they feel more confident. Speed may also increase.
Click to expand...

Of course. Why wouldn't they look for a way to increase revenue?

If I'm driving on winter tyres an am able to stop and the person behind me can't 'cos they are on summer tyres, whose fault is it?

Maybe we should see 'snow exclusion' clause for people on summer tyres?


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## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

I think you will find that the in contract you enter into when you take out insurance you agree to 'keep your vehicle in a roadworthy condition' unfortunately an MOT certificate does not help you prove the vehicles condition once you have left the test centre. Things like tyre pressures and overloading are the easy traps to fall into if following an accident the vehicle examiner picks up something like that. It is then you find the insurance company may refuse all but 3rd party cover. 
You will never be in the wrong by informing your insurance company of changes to the vehicle. It is them who assess if the change is likely to affect their risk and each one seems to work differently. 
A written notification is always better than a phone call


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## teemyob

*Winter Tyres*

Back in January 2008 I posted on here that we should all take a look at fitting winter tyres or at least M+S.

Seems opinions are changing somewhat!

Take a Look


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## peedee

Teemyob,

Good job subjects come round again then :lol: 

peedee


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## Wupert

raynipper said:


> I run winter tyres on the van all year and the only difference I notice is due to the wider tread they pick up gravel more.
> Makes a hell of a noise when leaving a gravel car park.
> 
> I'm now looking for winter tyres for the car.
> Is it OK to only have winters on the front driving wheels?
> 
> Ray.


A huge no

A very dangerous thing to do


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## Andysam

We have trialled winter tyres at work for 12 months now and when assessing tyre wear and handling it has been decided to fit the entire fleet with winter tyres on a permanent basis- almost a 1000 vehicles.


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## RichardnGill

Andysam said:


> We have trialled winter tyres at work for 12 months now and when assessing tyre wear and handling it has been decided to fit the entire fleet with winter tyres on a permanent basis- almost a 1000 vehicles.


Not the Tesco van fleet is it?


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## nicholsong

RichardnGill said:


> Andysam said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have trialled winter tyres at work for 12 months now and when assessing tyre wear and handling it has been decided to fit the entire fleet with winter tyres on a permanent basis- almost a 1000 vehicles.
> 
> 
> 
> Not the Tesco van fleet is it?
Click to expand...

I doubt it.

When I worked for Tesco home delivery, I reported that the 'big end' on my van was knocking and likely to fail if not pulled.

Response:- 'What's a big end?' 4 days later it failed with the inevitable consequences!

Their vans are (or were) under the control of the local store home delivery manager, who was more concerned with the speed of his 'pickers' in the aisles.

Geoff


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## commuter

Some food for thought. There are many opinions and "those in the know" do not seem to agree so I guess it's "make your mind up time" (some of the older MHF's will remember this catchphrase)

http://www.conti-online.com/generat...inter-tyres/why_winter/4x4_why_winter_en.html - pro all year round use

"If you are reluctant to change tyres and have nowhere to store summer tyres when they are not in use, you are better off using winter tyres all year round."

http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/features/theknowledge/214260/winter_tyres.html - anti all year round use

"So why not use winter tyres all year round? The simple answer is that at higher temperatures, on wet or dry roads, they're not as good as summer tyres: tyre technology has moved forward a long way but temperature still has a big impact on longevity and performance. "

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/winter-tyres-in-the-uk.html - trusted advice from a reliable source?

"Winter tyres are not really suited to all year round use though - summer tyres will give better performance when temperatures are higher and roads dry - so you'll need two sets of tyres if you're going to choose specialist tyres for winter."


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## teemyob

*Summer*



commuter said:


> Some food for thought. There are many opinions and "those in the know" do not seem to agree so I guess it's "make your mind up time" (some of the older MHF's will remember this catchphrase)
> 
> http://www.conti-online.com/generat...inter-tyres/why_winter/4x4_why_winter_en.html - pro all year round use
> 
> "If you are reluctant to change tyres and have nowhere to store summer tyres when they are not in use, you are better off using winter tyres all year round."
> 
> http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/features/theknowledge/214260/winter_tyres.html - anti all year round use
> 
> "So why not use winter tyres all year round? The simple answer is that at higher temperatures, on wet or dry roads, they're not as good as summer tyres: tyre technology has moved forward a long way but temperature still has a big impact on longevity and performance. "
> 
> http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/winter-tyres-in-the-uk.html - trusted advice from a reliable source?
> 
> "Winter tyres are not really suited to all year round use though - summer tyres will give better performance when temperatures are higher and roads dry - so you'll need two sets of tyres if you're going to choose specialist tyres for winter."


I have been driving for Almost 30 years and have almost always used Winter tyres.

For the UK, what summer?

We have more months suited to winter tyres than summers.

If you ever go to the French Alps in summer, look how many of their cars still have winter tyres on.

TM


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## Stanner

*Re: Summer*



teemyob said:


> commuter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some food for thought. There are many opinions and "those in the know" do not seem to agree so I guess it's "make your mind up time" (some of the older MHF's will remember this catchphrase)
> 
> http://www.conti-online.com/generat...inter-tyres/why_winter/4x4_why_winter_en.html - pro all year round use
> 
> "If you are reluctant to change tyres and have nowhere to store summer tyres when they are not in use, you are better off using winter tyres all year round."
> 
> http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/features/theknowledge/214260/winter_tyres.html - anti all year round use
> 
> "So why not use winter tyres all year round? The simple answer is that at higher temperatures, on wet or dry roads, they're not as good as summer tyres: tyre technology has moved forward a long way but temperature still has a big impact on longevity and performance. "
> 
> http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/winter-tyres-in-the-uk.html - trusted advice from a reliable source?
> 
> "Winter tyres are not really suited to all year round use though - summer tyres will give better performance when temperatures are higher and roads dry - so you'll need two sets of tyres if you're going to choose specialist tyres for winter."
> 
> 
> 
> I have been driving for Almost 30 years and have almost always used Winter tyres.
> 
> For the UK, what summer?
> 
> We have more months suited to winter tyres than summers.
> 
> If you ever go to the French Alps in summer, look how many of their cars still have winter tyres on.
> 
> TM
Click to expand...

Exactly if anything at all "winter tyres" lose 10% of their effectiveness in "summer" BUT so-called "summer tyres" (in my experience) lose up to 100%* of their effectiveness in "winter".

So winter tyres are far less "inappropriate" in summer (when we get any) than summer tyres are inappropriate in winter.

I'd much rather have 90% grip all the time than 0% grip any of the time.

*Bridgestone Turanza tyres - I could just let the clutch up slowly with no throttle at all and my car just sat on ice with the wheels turning last winter. I then fitted Avon Ice Touring tyres and had no more problems.

It's you choice, it's your neck, just please don't meet me coming the other way, or even the same way if you are coming up behind me and I have to stop.

:wink:


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## grizzlyj

Hi

Cool videos, particularly normal tyres on the rear and winters on the front!!!!

Are studded tyres legal and available in the UK? 

Our 4x4 camper on big chunky tyres was OK on ice when driven gingerly, but a steep slope at walking speed luckily resulted in zero slip, followed by amazement as a Clio shot past on studs at about 50mph! I think they would be fun to try!


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## teemyob

*Re: Summer*



Stanner said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> commuter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some food for thought. There are many opinions and "those in the know" do not seem to agree so I guess it's "make your mind up time" (some of the older MHF's will remember this catchphrase)
> 
> http://www.conti-online.com/generat...inter-tyres/why_winter/4x4_why_winter_en.html - pro all year round use
> 
> "If you are reluctant to change tyres and have nowhere to store summer tyres when they are not in use, you are better off using winter tyres all year round."
> 
> http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/features/theknowledge/214260/winter_tyres.html - anti all year round use
> 
> "So why not use winter tyres all year round? The simple answer is that at higher temperatures, on wet or dry roads, they're not as good as summer tyres: tyre technology has moved forward a long way but temperature still has a big impact on longevity and performance. "
> 
> http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/winter-tyres-in-the-uk.html - trusted advice from a reliable source?
> 
> "Winter tyres are not really suited to all year round use though - summer tyres will give better performance when temperatures are higher and roads dry - so you'll need two sets of tyres if you're going to choose specialist tyres for winter."
> 
> 
> 
> I have been driving for Almost 30 years and have almost always used Winter tyres.
> 
> For the UK, what summer?
> 
> We have more months suited to winter tyres than summers.
> 
> If you ever go to the French Alps in summer, look how many of their cars still have winter tyres on.
> 
> TM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly if anything at all "winter tyres" lose 10% of their effectiveness in "summer" BUT so-called "summer tyres" (in my experience) lose up to 100%* of their effectiveness in "winter".
> 
> So winter tyres are far less "inappropriate" in summer (when we get any) than summer tyres are inappropriate in winter.
> 
> I'd much rather have 90% grip all the time than 0% grip any of the time.
> 
> *Bridgestone Turanza tyres - I could just let the clutch up slowly with no throttle at all and my car just sat on ice with the wheels turning last winter. I then fitted Avon Ice Touring tyres and had no more problems.
> 
> It's you choice, it's your neck, just please don't meet me coming the other way, or even the same way if you are coming up behind me and I have to stop.
> 
> :wink:
Click to expand...

Finally, Someone who gets my point.

Thank You.

Trev


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## Stanner

*Re: Summer*



teemyob said:


> Finally, Someone who gets my point.
> 
> Thank You.
> 
> Trev


I thought we had both got each other's point for some time now. :wink:

It's the "I've never used them and I can't see the point of them" ones that need to get the point.

It's not that winter tyres may possibly be unsuitable for a (very) small proportion of the year - it's that "summer" tyres are more unsuitable for more of the year.


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## Stanner

grizzlyj said:


> Are studded tyres legal and available in the UK?


They are only legal on roads "entirely covered in snow or ice".

From http://www.etyres.co.uk/uk-tyre-law


> Damage to road, person or vehicle
> 
> If the tyre causes either damage to the road, or to persons, or to any vehicle using the road. This would cover such instances as if a vehicle with damaged or very oversized tyres which either caught against a person or other vehicle resulting in either damage or injury. Studded tyres also are included in this clause and if used in inappropriate conditions (i.e. where there is no ice or snow) and they damage the road surface then they would be clearly illegal.


Damage like this
http://training.ce.washington.edu/wsdot/Modules/09_pavement_evaluation/studded_tires.htm


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## peribro

*Re: Summer*



teemyob said:


> We have more months suited to winter tyres than summers.


Really? As I understand it, winter tyres only outperform summer tyres when the temperature is below about 7C. Even on wet roads, summer tyres will outperform winter tyres if the temperature is above 7C or so. Looking at average temperatures in the UK, average lows of 7C or less arise in December to March inclusive. Obviously temperatures can fall below that in some of the other months but equally it is possible to drive in many of the winter months when the temperature is above 7C. Also where in the UK one is driving will also have an effect.

I have a set of winter tyres (and wheels) that I fit on our people carrier but because of the very mild weather we have been having, I have not yet swapped over. I appreciate that swapping wheels on a motorhome is not the easiest of tasks and given that motorhomes are usually driven in a more sedate manner than cars, then I can understand the rationale for using winter tyres all year. However I would not be happy with the 10% performance loss on a car for 8 months at least of the year.

The matter of insurance has been mentioned and it is interesting whether an insurer could dispute a claim if it could be shown that running winter tyres in the summer were a cause? I would have thought so.


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## Stanner

*Re: Summer*



peribro said:


> The matter of insurance has been mentioned and it is interesting whether an insurer could dispute a claim if it could be shown that running winter tyres in the summer were a cause? I would have thought so.


No more so than using summer tyres in winter.

Good winter tyres used in summer can be better than using cheapo summer tyres any time.


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## RichardnGill

We get both winter and summer tyres provided for our company cars at work.

Many of us dont bother putting the summers back on especially those of us that live up North.

I have not noted any real problem in using winters in the summer but noticed plenty of benefits in running winter tyres.

I travel over 30,000 miles P/A in this car and winters still last ok as well, no more noticable noise no more noticeable fuel used either.


Richard...


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## peribro

*Re: Summer*



Stanner said:


> peribro said:
> 
> 
> 
> The matter of insurance has been mentioned and it is interesting whether an insurer could dispute a claim if it could be shown that running winter tyres in the summer were a cause? I would have thought so.
> 
> 
> 
> No more so than using summer tyres in winter.
Click to expand...

Except that most (if not all) cars are supplied by the manufacturer with summer tyres on. An insurer would be hard pushed to argue that a motorist should replace the summer ones with winter ones unless it was recommended / mandated by either the car manufacturer or by legislation etc.


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## Stanner

*Re: Summer*



peribro said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peribro said:
> 
> 
> 
> The matter of insurance has been mentioned and it is interesting whether an insurer could dispute a claim if it could be shown that running winter tyres in the summer were a cause? I would have thought so.
> 
> 
> 
> No more so than using summer tyres in winter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Except that most (if not all) cars are supplied by the manufacturer with summer tyres on. An insurer would be hard pushed to argue that a motorist should replace the summer ones with winter ones unless it was recommended / mandated by either the car manufacturer or by legislation etc.
Click to expand...

My car handbook DOES specify winter tyres as an alternative but does not state when they should be swapped either way with the summer alternatives. Neither does (so far as I can tell) any law in this country.

Some countries in continental Europe specify when summer tyres MUST be replaced with specific winter tyres, however I cannot find any such equivalent requirement for when the summer tyres MUST be refitted.

So for those countries where winter tyres MUST be fitted by law for part of the year, there does not appear to be an equivalent requirement for summer tyres to be fitted ANY of the time. This would imply that winter tyres are legal all year, but summer tyres are only legal for part of the year.

The only conditions under which I can see that summer tyres _might_ be better than winter tyres is a stonkingly hot day with bone dry roads, when in fact totally bald, ultra sticky, (and totally illegal) racing slicks would actually be ideal.

I have found from personal experience that my winter tyres are far more suitable than ANY summer tyre I have had, for far more of the time.


----------



## peribro

*Re: Summer*



Stanner said:


> The only conditions under which I can see that summer tyres _might_ be better than winter tyres is a stonkingly hot day with bone dry roads, when in fact totally bald, ultra sticky, (and totally illegal) racing slicks would actually be ideal.


All the comparisons and reviews I have read have concluded that summer tyres provide better performance (10% or so) whenever the temperature is above 7C, regardless of whether the road is wet or dry. The only exception is if the surface is covered in snow or similar.


----------



## RichardnGill

10% better than what though.

Some tyres will be better on a certain road surface than another, in some cases by more than 10%.

One make will out corner another when new but at 50% worn could be far worse.

In many cases a good winter tyre will be better in the summer than a chepo summer tyre.

I doubt weather any insurance company would have any room to squabble if you have a winter tyre on your car at temps over 7c as long as the normal legal stuff with tyre is met.



Richard...


----------



## peribro

RichardnGill said:


> 10% better than what though.


10% better than the performance of a winter tyre on the same surface in wet and dry braking and wet and dry cornering. There is a review / comparison here but there are other ones as well with similar conclusions.


----------



## teemyob

*September*

I saw some new Vauxhall Corsas being delivered in summer. They were factory fitted with winter tyres.

TM


----------



## Stanner

peribro said:


> RichardnGill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 10% better than what though.
> 
> 
> 
> 10% better than the performance of a winter tyre on the same surface in wet and dry braking and wet and dry cornering. There is a review / comparison here but there are other ones as well with similar conclusions.
Click to expand...

So does that apply irrespective of make of summer tyre or make of winter tyre for that matter? and does that mean there is absolutely no difference whatsoever in performance between Michelin/Continental/Goodyear and the cheapest "remoulded Durex" special from a backsteet tyre dealer?

Blimey if only me and thousands of others had known that, we could have saved £0000's on buying branded tyres all these years.

I wonder if Michelin etc. realise how much they've wasted on R&D over the years?


----------



## Stanner

This is the offset for 10% in the summer 


> During the snow test, the summer tyre had less than 50% of the grip.


And did you read the conclusion????

"Our advice? If you commute during the winter and rely on your car to get to work, winter tyres will give superior grip on cold mornings without sacrificing more than 10% of summer tyre performance during the odd freak warm day  ."

(My emphasis)

Which is just what Teemyob and I have been saying - so thank you for that back up. Much appreciated! :wink:


----------



## peribro

Stanner said:


> This is the offset for 10% in the summer
> 
> 
> 
> During the snow test, the summer tyre had less than 50% of the grip.
> 
> 
> 
> And did you read the conclusion????
> 
> "Our advice? If you commute during the winter and rely on your car to get to work, winter tyres will give superior grip on cold mornings without sacrificing more than 10% of summer tyre performance during the odd freak warm day  ."
> 
> (My emphasis)
> 
> Which is just what Teemyob and I have been saying - so thank you for that back up. Much appreciated! :wink:
Click to expand...

Er - I suggest you read the conclusion again. They are talking about the "odd freak warm day" in the winter and I totally agree with them. That is why I put winter tyres on the car in the winter. My point has been that by running winter tyres all year round, you are sacrificing performance for seven or eight months of the year when temperatures are above 7C or so. I think that fact is pretty irrefutable - unless of course you want to refute it! :wink:


----------



## Kev1

Hi guys
We have a Hobby 750 tag axle currently just two tyres are beginning to get low on tread. The vehicle has alloys all round.

Six tyres is a big out lay at one go. Can I legally fit just two winter tyres on the front drive axle. and replace the others in pairs at a later date ending up with winter tyres all round.

I realise it would be better to do all at once. But flinch at the cost in one go.

Cheers 
kev


----------



## raynipper

Hi Kev.
I had decided to change all 6 tyres on my Hobby tag as they were the original and cracking badly. I guess I was lucky they had not blown before.

Luckily I managed to find a set of almost new winter tyres at a very reasonable price. Maybe you can cast around and search for another set of almost new winter ones.

I have seen sets of part used winters on e-bay. Worth a try.

Ray.


----------



## Stanner

peribro said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the offset for 10% in the summer
> 
> 
> 
> During the snow test, the summer tyre had less than 50% of the grip.
> 
> 
> 
> And did you read the conclusion????
> 
> "Our advice? If you commute during the winter and rely on your car to get to work, winter tyres will give superior grip on cold mornings without sacrificing more than 10% of summer tyre performance during the odd freak warm day  ."
> 
> (My emphasis)
> 
> Which is just what Teemyob and I have been saying - so thank you for that back up. Much appreciated! :wink:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Er - I suggest you read the conclusion again. They are talking about the "odd freak warm day" in the winter and I totally agree with them. That is why I put winter tyres on the car in the winter. My point has been that by running winter tyres all year round, you are sacrificing performance for seven or eight months of the year when temperatures are above 7C or so. I think that fact is pretty irrefutable - unless of course you want to refute it! :wink:
Click to expand...

I think "odd freak warm day" is a good description of an English summer and that is what I think they mean as well.

My EXPERIENCE is that there is NO appreciable loss of performance even on hot days and I would defy you to notice 10% reduction in an already more than adequate performance (if you have in fact fitted reasonable tyres in the first place - many don't).

Notwithstanding that a good driver is hardly as likely to be "caught out" by good weather driving conditions (unless they are driving stupidly badly) as they are to be caught out by a deterioration in driving conditions, when a 10% (or even 50%) loss in performance could be critical.

I for one would rather be (just possibly maybe) down 10% in good conditions than be down (definitely) 50% in bad conditions.


----------



## Kev1

Thanks ray will keep an eye out.
I usually see a good deal after it's gone. lol 
four of our tyres are really good.
its the the legality of having different tyres on the front axle i am unsure of

Kev


----------



## RichardnGill

Kev1 said:


> Thanks ray will keep an eye out.
> I usually see a good deal after it's gone. lol
> four of our tyres are really good.
> its the the legality of having different tyres on the front axle i am unsure of
> 
> Kev


Kev as long as the tyres meet the load / speed ratings etc. they will be legal.

It is recommended to fit winters in a full set.

I run our tag with Michelin Agilis M&S on the rears and winters on the front. Not had any problems and its been in plenty of snow and ice.

Richard...


----------



## teemyob

*Tyres*

Not the Best winter tyre, but very good.

I bought some 205/75/16 Michelin Alpin Winters in June (Dealer overstock - needed cashflow) for £75 each, brand new. They sold out at mytyres recently at £178 each!.

But, beware.

These Repaired Ebay Tyres Sold for £150 a pair. From my experience looking at the photo's and knowing the tyres. They have done far more than 200 miles.

My favorite tyre around at the moment are These UltraGrips

Or if If you can find any, Toyo HO9's

TM


----------



## peribro

Stanner said:


> I for one would rather be (just possibly maybe) down 10% in good conditions than be down (definitely) 50% in bad conditions.


I fear you are missing the point. It isn't an all or nothing situation. If you run summer tyres in the summer and winter tyres in the winter then you don't need to be 10% down or 50% down respectively. If however you are saying that you want to save the time / money / inconvenience of swapping tyres over twice a year and are prepared to accept the reduced performance in the summer, then that of course is your choice.


----------



## grizzlyj

Kev1 said:


> Hi guys
> We have a Hobby 750 tag axle currently just two tyres are beginning to get low on tread. The vehicle has alloys all round.
> 
> Six tyres is a big out lay at one go. Can I legally fit just two winter tyres on the front drive axle. and replace the others in pairs at a later date ending up with winter tyres all round.
> 
> I realise it would be better to do all at once. But flinch at the cost in one go.
> 
> Cheers
> kev


Hi

Stanner poster earlier in this thread, showing the effect on a small car with the better grippier tyres on the front. Similar on a bigger vehicle would not be good.


----------



## Stanner

peribro said:


> are prepared to accept the reduced performance in the summer, then that of course is your choice.


But WHAT reduction in performance? 
Comparing what tyre with what tyre?

Are all tyres the same? 
NO! 
So how can anybody say that any given tyre is 10% worse than any other given tyre - It can't be true.

My current Vredesteins are better in ALL conditions than any other tyre I have ever had. I have not noticed any shortfall in performance under any driving condition. However I remember all too well the many summer tyres I've used in the past that had nothing like the performance in warm dry road conditions of my winter tyres - Michelin ZXs for one, Bridgestone Turanzas for another.

If you truly believe that a winter tyre will always be 10% worse than ANY summer tyre - then words fail me.


----------



## BillCreer

I can understand what Peribro is saying.

Any percentage figures are averages for directly comparable tyres and where you will notice the difference is when you are confronted with an extreme situation.
We are talking about the point at which the tyres lose grip and when you are confronted with a potential accident then 10% more grip can make a huge difference.


----------



## Morphology

Stanner said:


> If you truly believe that a winter tyre will always be 10% worse than ANY summer tyre - then words fail me.


I'm with you on this. Consider also that the times I lost traction this year were on summer tyres in summer (wet grass on campsites, and having to be towed ON to Glastonbury) I can say with some certainty that I'm sure I wouldn't have got stuck had I been running Winter tyres in Summer.

So, I'm leaving my Vanco Winter 2s on all year.

Perhaps we should suspend this thread and re-convene in a year's time to compare notes?


----------



## Stanner

Morphology said:


> Perhaps we should suspend this thread and re-convene in a year's time to compare notes?


.....and those who are still alive win?

I'll accept Peribro's argument as soon as he can let me have a definitive list of which summer tyres are "on average" 10% better than my Vredesteins.

I accept that figure means that some summer tyres must be better "in extremis" - BUT - it also requires plenty to be worse.


----------



## peribro

Stanner said:


> I'll accept Peribro's argument as soon as he can let me have a definitive list of which summer tyres are "on average" 10% better than my Vredesteins.


Gosh this is getting boring. How about the following: Vredestein Ultrac Sessanta, Vredestein Hi Trac 2, Vredestein Sportrac 2, Vredestein Sportrac 3, Vredestein Ultrac, Vredestein Ultrac Cento, Vredestein Hi Trac, Vredestein Sprint Classic, Vredestein Sprint Plus and Vredestein T Trac. These are summer high performance and touring tyres made by Vredestein and I assure you that their performance in the summer will be better than Vredestein winter tyres in the summer - excepting those days when the temperature is below 7C or there is snow on the ground.


----------



## RichardnGill

peribro said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll accept Peribro's argument as soon as he can let me have a definitive list of which summer tyres are "on average" 10% better than my Vredesteins.
> 
> 
> 
> Gosh this is getting boring. How about the following: Vredestein Ultrac Sessanta, Vredestein Hi Trac 2, Vredestein Sportrac 2, Vredestein Sportrac 3, Vredestein Ultrac, Vredestein Ultrac Cento, Vredestein Hi Trac, Vredestein Sprint Classic, Vredestein Sprint Plus and Vredestein T Trac. These are summer high performance and touring tyres made by Vredestein and I assure you that their performance in the summer will be better than Vredestein winter tyres in the summer - excepting those days when the temperature is below 7C or there is snow on the ground.
Click to expand...

Will they be 10% better if it is wet?


----------



## trevd01

Do you suppose that 7degrees is that magic a number?

What if it is 8 degrees, or 10 degrees? Or even 15 degrees? How about 20 degrees?

I bet the _tiny_ performance fall off is pretty gradual.










And this is London.

"Temperatures are cooler as you move further north or nearer to the coast (in Edinburgh average temperatures are on average 2°C below those in London) or as you move to higher land. For every 500 feet (150 metres) of altitute the average temperature falls by about 1°C."


----------



## coppo

trevd01 said:


> Do you suppose that 7degrees is that magic a number?
> 
> What if it is 8 degrees, or 10 degrees? Or even 15 degrees? How about 20 degrees?
> 
> I bet the _tiny_ performance fall off is pretty gradual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is London.
> 
> "Temperatures are cooler as you move further north or nearer to the coast (in Edinburgh average temperatures are on average 2°C below those in London) or as you move to higher land. For every 500 feet (150 metres) of altitute the average temperature falls by about 1°C."


Thats the reason we run winters all year, we live above 1100 ft on the moors.

Can't see any reason whatsoever to use summer tyres on a motorhome.

Paul.


----------



## Stanner

peribro said:


> I assure you that their performance in the summer will be better than Vredestein winter tyres in the summer - excepting those days when the temperature is below 7C or there is snow on the ground.


Yes it is getting boring - I repeat - I would rather have a theoretical loss of maybe 10% in good conditions when that loss could easily be the difference between good summer tyres and crap summer tyres, than a PROVEN loss of around 50% in poor conditions where even a 10% loss would be critical.

Now remind me exactly when it is we get enough summer for enough CONTINUAL days to make it worth swapping to summer tyres?


----------



## Stanner

trevd01 said:


> Do you suppose that 7degrees is that magic a number?
> 
> What if it is 8 degrees, or 10 degrees? Or even 15 degrees? How about 20 degrees?
> 
> I bet the _tiny_ performance fall off is pretty gradual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is London.
> 
> "Temperatures are cooler as you move further north or nearer to the coast (in Edinburgh average temperatures are on average 2°C below those in London) or as you move to higher land. For every 500 feet (150 metres) of altitute the average temperature falls by about 1°C."


And I think you will find that road temperatures (especially in the early morning) will be lower than air temperature.


----------



## Wupert

M&S or Winter tyres are what it says on the box

I dont know of any motorhomer that drives on the limit of summer tyres

My MH and BMWX5 have permanent M&S tyres

Anybody who disputes the value of the M&S & Winter tyre knows very little about tyres 

PS

I live 6 months of the year mostly winter months in Austria


----------



## peribro

Wupert said:


> Anybody who disputes the value of the M&S & Winter tyre knows very little about tyres


I don't think anyone is doing that - at least on this thread.


----------



## peribro

To quote from the AA's website: "Winter tyres are not really suited to all year round use though – summer tyres will give better performance when temperatures are higher and roads dry – so you'll need two sets of tyres if you're going to choose specialist tyres for winter."

To quote from Which magazine: "What are winter tyres bad at?
At temperatures above 7C they offer significantly poorer grip in dry conditions than the best summer tyres. This can mean a marked increase in braking distances and poorer handling and grip in bends."

I prefer to take the advice of the experts and that is why I run good quality summer tyres on my car in the summer and good winter tyres in the winter. To those of you who choose to run on winter tyres all year round, I just hope that you make allowance for the increased braking distances and poorer handling on dry and warmer roads. Its also interesting to read Which's comment on insurance - "We've heard of a few people asking their insurers about this and being told that winter tyres are counted as a 'modification'. In fact we’ve heard of at least one person being declined insurance if they fit them". Good luck to you when you have to explain to your insurance company why you piled into the vehicle in front of you on a dry day in the middle of August because you couldn't stop in time due to your winter tyres.


----------



## TR5

The benefit of swopping tyres on a performance vehicle with somwhat lower profile tyres is possibly quite measurable, but on a motorhome!!
After all, low profile performance tyres are well known to be even more useless in poor winter weather conditions.

I have fitted Vredestein Comtrac winters and intend to use these all year round. I have also increased the tyre width from 215 to 225, so in the unlikely event that my winter tyres were to lose 10% of grip in the summer, I have increased the footprint by more than 10%, so alleviating any loss of grip.
That also gives me the advantage of spreading the weight over a greater area, giving even better grip on soft ground, grass, snow and ice.

In the case of insurance policies, my insurer was not interested in whether I am running winters, all seasons, summers, as long as the tyres were at least the weight, speed and pressure spec for the vehicle, and of course legal tread depths.

I researched many different tyre reviews, performance tests results, and spoke with several manufacturers, before choosing the tyres I did.

Vredestein Comtrac Winters have a better summer dry performance rating, than the Michelin XC summer tyres they are replacing, so should be astounding during winter use!

That's good enough for me.


----------



## teemyob

*Terms*

Lets put this a different way, let us call it "laymans"

If we were all so very used to driving on everyday tyres that are just to us, "Tyres" (Winter or All-Season Variants of course).

Then, someone or some company suggests we should try these special "summer tyres". These so called summer tyres are sold as a premium product and we all rush to buy them.

Then the first fall of snow comes, some slush, ice and well............

What can I say?

TM


----------



## peribro

TR5 said:


> The benefit of swopping tyres on a performance vehicle with somwhat lower profile tyres is possibly quite measurable, but on a motorhome!!


Regrettably motorhomes also have to make emergency stops from time to time and I know that if I have to brake hard in my 4000kg+ motorhome that I want it to stop in as short a distance as possible. The report here from the British Tyre Manufacturers' Association shows that winter tyres have worse braking performance than summer tyres on both wet and dry roads at higher temperatures (20C) and on dry roads as well at lower temperatures (5C). Since many people drive their motorhomes in the warmer summer months, they should take particular note of the dry weather braking performance result at 20c which shows that the braking distance on winter tyres is 12% worse (longer) than on summer tyres.


----------



## TR5

I'm not being drawn into a discussion or argument over this.

I have already stated;
1. The Vredesteins have a better performance rating in dry weather than the summers taken off my vehicle.
2. I increased the footprint on the road by increasing tyre size, mainly to spread the load and give a better ride, but also to put more rubber on the road when needed.

I have not experienced a problem stopping with my summer tyres, which were rubbish at pulling away on the slightest incline, especially in the wet, so better quality winters should do the job fine.

Yes, I could probably improve summer braking distance by fitting high performance soft tyres, go to intermediates when there is light rain, etc..

You have much less chance of stopping in an emergency on summer tyres in the winter, than you do in the summer on winter tyres.

Opinions differ, I'll end mine here.

PS. I have retained my summer tyres for one season, just in case.


----------



## craigrogers

In the UK, this means one thing - Money Spinner to get the economy going.

It's no suprise that the person who started all this off (last winter) was the MD of Goodyear UK............

We don't need them. The Nordic countries (and to some extent Germany) yes, but come on, there's not THAT much difference between the seasons in the UK apart from the odd week were we'll get some bad weather.

To be honest, the road surfaces are so rubbish in the UK, we may as well just all put off-road tyres on.


----------



## teemyob

*snow*



craigrogers said:


> In the UK, this means one thing - Money Spinner to get the economy going.
> 
> It's no suprise that the person who started all this off (last winter) was the MD of Goodyear UK............
> 
> We don't need them. The Nordic countries (and to some extent Germany) yes, but come on, there's not THAT much difference between the seasons in the UK apart from the odd week were we'll get some bad weather.
> 
> To be honest, the road surfaces are so rubbish in the UK, we may as well just all put off-road tyres on.


So when we get that odd week of snow, it is the drivers with the same attitude that I get stuck behind. Then the economy takes a hit because for the sake of the correct use of rubber, nobody gets anywhere.

And I guess we don't need the all-season or Winter tyres for the other 11 1/2 months of the year (ok I am exaggerating) when our tarmac temperature levels are at a temperature more suited to them.

I just fail to understand why people suggest that only Nordic Countries should use winter tyres.


----------



## craigrogers

*Re: snow*



teemyob said:


> I just fail to understand why people suggest that only Nordic Countries should use winter tyres.


We just don't need them. Simple as. In the serious crappy weather we have, winter tyres are not going to help the fact that the councils can't deal with the roads.

An all round tyre is perfectly acceptable and always has been. It's not the people with the attitude, it's the people that have no idea how to drive that you get stuck behind.

The cost involved with swapping and storing tyres (correctly) is so great, you may as well get a cheap winter car such as a 4x4.......


----------



## teemyob

*Re: snow*



craigrogers said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just fail to understand why people suggest that only Nordic Countries should use winter tyres.
> 
> 
> 
> We just don't need them. Simple as. In the serious crappy weather we have, winter tyres are not going to help the fact that the councils can't deal with the roads.
> 
> An all round tyre is perfectly acceptable and always has been. It's not the people with the attitude, it's the people that have no idea how to drive that you get stuck behind.
> 
> The cost involved with swapping and storing tyres (correctly) is so great, you may as well get a cheap winter car such as a 4x4.......
Click to expand...

Lost count of how many times I seen people who know how into trouble in bad weather.

When I was 17, £250 bright Orange Marina. Got some winter tyres fitted in summer. When winter and the snow arrived went off to Goyt Valley.
As I was leaving the car park, brand new Subaru 4x4 stuck in the snow on summer tyres. But I left him behind and drove off with ease.

More recently, going up a steep hill in thick snow. Passed 4 lads trying to push a BMW X3 up it!. I drove up and past with ease in My Wife's FWD Audi with winters on.

Most 4x4's cost more to run and would far outweigh the cost of swapping a set of tyres. Any 4x4 is only as good as the tyres they ride on.

In Norway, I would not mind betting there are less 4x4's per Capita than there are in London. Norwegian's get along very nicely on two wheel drive.

TM


----------



## craigrogers

Oh come on, be sensible.

Most drivers get stuck because they don't know how to drive in the conditions regardless of what tyres they have fitted. A lot also put winter tyres on and still get stuck.

I'm not saying that winter tyres are pointless, they are not and they certainly add a little extra grip. But thinking you put winter tyres on and suddenly it transforms the car into something else is just being silly.

They don't make that much difference and what I'm saying is the difference is marginal to warrant use in the UK.

BTW, BMW X3 and X5 are rubbish in the snow.

What you also have to remember (and I've spent a lot of time in the Nordic region) is that most roads are usually kept clear. Also, the dry snow they get is grippy, it's not like the horid slushy snow we get in the UK that ends up turning to ice. Ice is our problem and winter tyres don't do much for the icy conditions, nothing grips (apart from studded) in those conditions.

Last year was the exeption, we have some dry snow and even managed to drive the XK in it last year it was so grippy.


----------



## javea

I also lurk around the Jaguar XF forum. The chaps in Canada, and they should know bearing in mind the road conditions that they encounter in the winter, say that an XF fitted with winter tyres has a much superior performance than a 4 x 4 on 'normal' tyres.

That's a good enough, unbiased opinion for me.


----------



## craigrogers

Ha ha, really, I doubt it very much.

So you are saying that a FR car (front engined/Rear Wheel Drive) fitted with winter tyres would out perform a Land Rover on normal tyres?

Not a chance.

If you mean maybe an Audi car 4x4, then that's different. A lot of people think that these performance cars with 4wd are great off road or snow. They are not designed for that.


----------



## TR5

Strange then, that the Vredestein video on their website promoting winter tyres shows vehicles using them in *all* conditions, dry tarmac, damp roads, pouring rain, and on snow!


----------



## javea

craigrogers said:


> Ha ha, really, I doubt it very much.
> 
> So you are saying that a FR car (front engined/Rear Wheel Drive) fitted with winter tyres would out perform a Land Rover on normal tyres?
> 
> Not a chance.
> 
> If you mean maybe an Audi car 4x4, then that's different. A lot of people think that these performance cars with 4wd are great off road or snow. They are not designed for that.


No I am not talking about a Land Rover of the agricultural variety but the Chelsea tractor kind of 4 x 4 which are much more common.

I would take the judgement of people who every year experience heavy snow falls over drivers like us who don't see that much of it.


----------



## craigrogers

Chelsea Tractor's are usually useless off road, so will be useless in the snow. Except of course Range Rovers........however, the Chelsea versions of Range Rovers (Overfinch for example) are probably not good in the snow. 

As good as they look, I've never understood why you'd buy a perfectly good Range Rover and then lower it and put low profile tyres on???? Wierd?

To be honest, it's an agree to disagree, but I just think the tyre companies along with the motoring media are scare-mongering to get people to purchase tyres they really don't need.

For me, I'll be keeping my money......but then I've got a car that I wouldn't normally bother taking in the snow/ice as it just won't go anyway apart from sideways and a Land Rover Defender that'll happily drive in most conditions. :lol:


----------



## andrewball1000

javea said:


> I also lurk around the Jaguar XF forum. The chaps in Canada, and they should know bearing in mind the road conditions that they encounter in the winter, .


My Father in Law moved to Montreal years ago. He had 2 sets of wheels, the summer ones on the car an the winter in the garage. Apparently the norm is that the weather forecasters warn you a week ahead when to change. Then its simply swap the wheels rather than the tyres.


----------



## craigrogers

andrewball1000 said:


> javea said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also lurk around the Jaguar XF forum. The chaps in Canada, and they should know bearing in mind the road conditions that they encounter in the winter, .
> 
> 
> 
> My Father in Law moved to Montreal years ago. He had 2 sets of wheels, the summer ones on the car an the winter in the garage. Apparently the norm is that the weather forecasters warn you a week ahead when to change. Then its simply swap the wheels rather than the tyres.
Click to expand...

Absolutly, and that's the norm in a place with such extreme weather. Canada in winter is just amazing, but then it's also amazing in the summer.

High on the list of places I'd like to retire to.


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## grizzlyj

Hi

The only time I've been in a European country during the weather changing and the locals changing tyres was in Iceland when the winter tyres concerned had studs on. Towns were only gritted at a few junctions and the steepest slopes, no footpaths or anywhere else. The main route 1 was plowed, but only to take fresh snow off the underlying ice. So km after km of sheet ice for everybody to drive on until "spring", and that was last month! It may have thawed a bit since, but that was a real eye opener to think having perhaps 7 months of winter conditions was not abnormal! 8O

The problem with this thread is its too vague. Any tyre test from the likes of Autocar is between specific tyres in specific conditions on the same car, drawing meaningful conclusions.

Peribros link shows at 20deg C the winter tyre braking 5m further on dry roads, illustrated as a boot lid length. On wet roads at 20 deg the winter tyre takes 1.7m longer, not much, but still shown as a boot length. But the comparable difference between a wet 5 deg and a dry 20 deg is drawn to be greatly different but should be shown to be the same boot length as the first pic, so presumably they (British tyre manufacturers asc.!) are skewing their message to get you to buy a new set of winters? :roll:

From 2011 Evo mag winter tyre test (so NOT mounted on a motorhome! )

Last place;

"10th: Continental Sport Contact 3
Total: 311.1 / Dry: 100 / Wet: 90.9 / Snow: -36.1 / Subjective: 94.8 / Overall: 61.5
Dry: Clear leader in the dry by over 3 seconds a (115 second) lap. Different league subjectively. Extremely precise compared to winter tyres.
Wet: Marginally preferred the feel to the winter version, only 8th fastest wet lap time.
Snow: Couldn't even get to the start line for the snow handling!

1st: Continental WinterContact TS 830 P
Total: 456.3 / Dry: 94.1 / Wet: 96.6 / Snow: 98 / Subjective: 77.1 / Overall: 90.5
Dry: Soft and friendly, tidy when hustled. 3rd fasted dry lap time.
Wet: Smooth and flowing, very predictable in its responses. 3rd fastest lap time.
Snow: Mid pack snow performance but stable.
Overall: The Continental is objectively the best overall, which it combined with solid results to win the test."

More tests here

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/

But, a fast road tyre for the summer is no relation to a motorhome tyre! Something super sticky and minimal but wide tread just won't be available in a suitable load rating. Just the weight of a motorhome will be a big advantage in the wet. So surely these "car" tyre tests talking about a good summer tyre are leagues away from what most here use?

A new Land/Range Rover etc is good in that the electric gizmos make best use of available traction, but its the tyres they come on from the showroom that give them questionable off road traction in the first place. So a decent winter tyre on a 4x4 saloon may well drive circles around a "proper" but undershod for the conditions Chelsea tractor. What is a Landrovers "proper" tyre?!?!?!? Thats a huge subject all to itself! A tyre for proper rock crawling may well be appalling on snow!

Without specifics comparisons are useless!

However good putting winter tyres on in the winter may be, you will still be parked up in the middle of the M6 sipping soup because no-one else has them


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## Wupert

peedee said:


> Isn't the wear on winter tyres excessive if not driven on snow?
> 
> peedee


Not in my experience PD

We run 5 vehicles on Winter tyres and have done for the last 20 years.


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## Wupert

I think that some clarity should be introduced

There are Summer tyres which are very dangerous on snow

There are M&S tyres which are very good

There are M&S plus a little snowflake which are even better 

There are Snow tyres which are incredible in snow

The first and last are not suitable for winter & summer respectively

The middle 2 are often an option on most new 4x4's and are perfectly acceptable for year round use.

My X5 on its "slicks' is useless on snow and wet grass but with the M&S mit snowflake it is almost as good as our 4x4 Toyota's in snow and off road


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## Wupert

grizzlyj said:


> Hi
> 
> The only time I've been in a European country during the weather changing and the locals changing tyres was in Iceland when the winter tyres concerned had studs on.


In Austria, Bavaria and I now think all of Germany plus alpine areas I think it is illegal to drive on anything other than winter tyres from Nov to mid March

It is definately illegal to drive any vehicle over 3500kg between the above dates


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## commuter

I think it's called sods law I had winter tyres fitted to my clio and prepped it for winter weather. Then the anti roll car snapped on Saturday .......and on Monday I hot a very large screw in one of the new winter tyres 

Now where's that crying emoticon?


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## teemyob

*emoticon*



commuter said:


> I think it's called sods law I had winter tyres fitted to my clio and prepped it for winter weather. Then the anti roll car snapped on Saturday .......and on Monday I hot a very large screw in one of the new winter tyres
> 
> Now where's that crying emoticon?


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## Rabbiteer

Morphology said:


> I'm having a full set of Continental Vanco Winter 2 tyres fitted tomorrow morning.
> I tried to shop around online but, in the end, the best price I could find was £550 fitted & balanced at Kwik Fit.


I live in Sussex and have been trying to get hold of a set of VancoWinter 2's since Feb 2011 when I found a nasty cut in a rear tyre. The local tyre shop said 'You definitely don't want those' we have something better. I walked away. My garage tried to get some but were told 'None available' which changed to 'wrong time of year ask in November'. 2 weeks ago it was still the 'wrong time of year'. I bought 4 x 225/70 15s for £545.56 delivered from Pneus online. Came from Cologne in 5 days from order. Fitted by my garage.
My job involved driving any time of day all year round and in the late 60's early 70's I had a sports car on which I used very soft Goodyear tyres and carried Delco-remy 'Spray on liquid chain' for ice and snow - very effective it was. Later, front wheel drive, I always had a spare pair of steel wheels with winter Mud/snow tyres. 
No matter how good you driving technique the ultimate arbiter is friction between tyre and surface. I would rather have higher tyre wear than be dead in ditch. Hopefully the Vanco2 is even better than its predecessor see http://www.motorcaravanning.com/vehicles/tyre_test.htm
I have never had a problem with car handling but found the older snow tyres had a more progressive slide than summer tyres. Oh happy days with sports cars and Alfasud sprints! I await to find out about the Vancowiner 2's on a 3.5ton Ducato.


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## coppo

Rabbiteer said:


> Morphology said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm having a full set of Continental Vanco Winter 2 tyres fitted tomorrow morning.
> I tried to shop around online but, in the end, the best price I could find was £550 fitted & balanced at Kwik Fit.
> 
> 
> 
> I live in Sussex and have been trying to get hold of a set of VancoWinter 2's since Feb 2011 when I found a nasty cut in a rear tyre. The local tyre shop said 'You definitely don't want those' we have something better. I walked away. My garage tried to get some but were told 'None available' which changed to 'wrong time of year ask in November'. 2 weeks ago it was still the 'wrong time of year'. I bought 4 x 225/70 15s for £545.56 delivered from Pneus online. Came from Cologne in 5 days from order. Fitted by my garage.
> My job involved driving any time of day all year round and in the late 60's early 70's I had a sports car on which I used very soft Goodyear tyres and carried Delco-remy 'Spray on liquid chain' for ice and snow - very effective it was. Later, front wheel drive, I always had a spare pair of steel wheels with winter Mud/snow tyres.
> No matter how good you driving technique the ultimate arbiter is friction between tyre and surface. I would rather have higher tyre wear than be dead in ditch. Hopefully the Vanco2 is even better than its predecessor see http://www.motorcaravanning.com/vehicles/tyre_test.htm
> I have never had a problem with car handling but found the older snow tyres had a more progressive slide than summer tyres. Oh happy days with sports cars and Alfasud sprints! I await to find out about the Vancowiner 2's on a 3.5ton Ducato.
Click to expand...

You will be over the moon with vanco's, believe me, they are wonderful tyres.

Paul.


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## trevd01

In Which? magazine, which arrived today, they have tested winter (car) tyres. Best scored 75%, worst 11% - with a difference in braking distance of three cars.

Which? also arguing that, as many have said here, as long as they meet the manufacturers specs, insurers should not charge extra premiums.

We had a bad frost here this week with solid sheet ice on our steep cul-de-sac. Only two cars got out that morning: my Landrover Freelander on winters (would have got out - but with more difficulty on summers, no doubt), and my neighbour who gave up trying to get his Lexus to even move at all, got out in his wife's Yaris which has winters on. The ice was so bad that a parked car slid down somebody else drive unattended.

Winter tyres - an absolute no brainer for those of us who live in hilly northern climes and need to get to work, or anywhere for that matter.


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## Techno100

Tyres just keep your rims off the ground.,
Either you can drive or you cant. :roll:
I recommend Michelin Agilis M+S
400mile of this without getting stuck last December









AND BTW just how many folk do drive and use their vans in this weather?
Probably not enough that it matters what tyres we have. 
Take your time and dont grab loads of gas. simple


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## nicholsong

Apologies if I have missed the information I am looking for in my trawl through the Forums.

I can see reference to 'Camper' tyres and to 'Winter' (i.e. snowflake symbol), but are there tyres which combine the specifications of both criteria?

If so could somebody please give me manufacturers' contacts.

I am in Poland and do not speak enough Polish yet, so a manufacturer's website with English option is my preferred source.

Thanks.

Geoff


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## nicholsong

Bump


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## coppo

The continental vanco winter 2 tyres that we had on our last MH are full winter tyres with both the snowflake and m+s marking, they are also double branded and are also rated 115N which is a higher load rating. We required this for the uprate to our rear axle.

Although not specifically camper tyres thats the best i can think of.

Paul.


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## Stanner

Do winter tyres compromise performance if used in temperatures above seven degrees?

Autocar's answer..............

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/winter-tyres-tested-in-the-wet-video-review/

Puzzled by the braking results though, why much more grip laterally but less in a straight line, when Michelin actually predict (and claim) better braking performance.


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## peribro

Stanner said:


> Do winter tyres compromise performance if used in temperatures above seven degrees?
> 
> Autocar's answer..............
> 
> http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/winter-tyres-tested-in-the-wet-video-review/
> 
> Puzzled by the braking results though, why much more grip laterally but less in a straight line, when Michelin actually predict (and claim) better braking performance.


As they said at the end of the video " Just remember to change them (winter tyres) back to all season tyres come the warmer weather".


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## aircool

Stanner said:


> Do winter tyres compromise performance if used in temperatures above seven degrees?


Apparently its not too horrendous, the main thing being more wear than usual as obviously they are much softer than summer spec tyres and possibly a little less grip however I'd imagine wet grip will be reasonably good i.e. on greasy wet summer downpours?


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## peribro

aircool said:


> Apparently its not too horrendous, the main thing being more wear than usual as obviously they are much softer than summer spec tyres and possibly a little less grip however I'd imagine wet grip will be reasonably good i.e. on greasy wet summer downpours?


14% increased stopping distance on the wet surface with the winter tyres is pretty horrendous I think!! Even more horrendous would be the loss of braking performance on a dry surface.


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## WildThingsKev

I use winter tyres from Nov to March, primarily for skiing in the Alps but I do feel happier with them driving around unknown windy roads in the southwest and Wales on typical wet winter days.

As we used to say at sea: "the closest land is always under the ship" (remember that one Captain Schettino?). Likewise, on those roads the closest thing to hit would be the stone hedge on the side of the road - not the car a safe distance in front.


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## BillCreer

WildThingsKev said:


> I use winter tyres from Nov to March, primarily for skiing in the Alps but I do feel happier with them driving around unknown windy roads in the southwest and Wales on typical wet winter days.
> 
> As we used to say at sea: "the closest land is always under the ship" (remember that one Captain Schettino?). Likewise, on those roads the closest thing to hit would be the stone hedge on the side of the road - not the car a safe distance in front.


Hi,

Not sure I agree with your logic. Are you giving that advice based on your expertise as a "Trade Member"?

I would think that, in any conditions, getting your speed down to that which would make it possible to negotiate a corner to be of utmost importance.

I'd rather avoid a head on collision than a glancing blow.


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## aircool

peribro said:


> aircool said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently its not too horrendous, the main thing being more wear than usual as obviously they are much softer than summer spec tyres and possibly a little less grip however I'd imagine wet grip will be reasonably good i.e. on greasy wet summer downpours?
> 
> 
> 
> 14% increased stopping distance on the wet surface with the winter tyres is pretty horrendous I think!! Even more horrendous would be the loss of braking performance on a dry surface.
Click to expand...

Interesting just read a few more reviews and its a mixed bag to say the least. Some tests showing summer tyres doing better in cold and wet performance than winters.


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## WildThingsKev

BillCreer said:


> Not sure I agree with your logic. Are you giving that advice based on your expertise as a "Trade Member"?
> 
> I would think that, in any conditions, getting your speed down to that which would make it possible to negotiate a corner to be of utmost importance.
> 
> I'd rather avoid a head on collision than a glancing blow.


Bill, I make canoes, not motorhomes!

I can't disagree about rather avoiding a head-on but I'd imagine that head on collisions in motorhomes are extremely rare because of the speed and caution with which most of us drive. I can't recall a time when I've had to make an emergency stop but sometimes you find an innocuous looking bend which suddenly tightens up with the potential for losing the rear end.

Different types of van will behave quite differently on wet corners but ours defintely feels more steady on the winter tyres around bends, even when the weather is mild.


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