# Anyone taking statins and got muscle aches?



## sirhandel

I've been taking Simvastatin for about 3 years since a medical MOT identified a rising cholesterol level that I couldn't control through diet. It does the job - my cholesterol level is now consistently below 5.0 but I have experienced increasing muscle discomfort/aches and weakness, particularly the big thigh muscles. My GP did a blood test that showed no anomaly and was dismissive, so I continued with the discomfort.

I should explain that I have always been a runner since my teens and now in my mid-sixties want to continue as long as I can but the muscle discomfort was making me seriously consider giving up totally and making me very depressed.

However I recently read somewhere that statins inhibit the body's synthesis of a substance called coenzyme Q10 by as much as 40%. What is that I thought? My internet research revealed that Q10 is essential to releasing energy in the cells so I thought it worth a try and have been taking 60mg of Q10 now for less than 2 weeks. The effect in my case is staggering - after 3 days my muscle aches disappeared and I have increasingly refound my energy and motivation to run daily. Remember we are not talking Olympic standards here, I am 64 after all, but for me this is very encouraging.

If you want more info go here:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Coenzyme-Q10.html

or do a google on 'statin coenzyme q10'.


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## aultymer

I think I will take a look at that, thanks, sirhandel


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## BlakeneyPlayer

I should say at the start that i am not a doctor so these comments are purely what I have gleaned through the internet and talking to GPs.
The muscle ache is a common "side effect" of all the statins and the simvastinn that you are taking seems to be about average in this respect. 
There are links between grapefruit and statin absorption and the literature strongly advises against eating grapefruit if you are taking statins. 

The Q10 information is very interesting and if I get any more information on this from the GPs then i will let you know. 

I am early in the process of taking statins (Simvastatin same as you) and so far all is well. I have combined this with eating a lot of fish and cutting out most of the fat rich foods which has helped with my weight having lost over a stone in just over a month. Most of the cholesterol in the blood is produced BY the body rather than been taken in with food and it is essential for carrying proteins around the body.

Keep up the running-marathon soon???

All the best

Rob


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## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

Could explain a great deal. Are they saying that taking this counteracts the positive effects of statins? In which case wouldn't stopping the statins achieve the same effect as taking yet another pill


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## carol

HI

Both Duncan and I take statins, for different things, his for his heart and because he had a high cholesterol and me, as a preventative for my diabetes. Duncan's statin was changed about a year ago to the simvastatin as it is cheaper....from that originally given by the heart consultant.

Neither of us has a problem, and I had not heard of this, so I did a search as well, as perhaps others will have done...

I must say I do not believe a lot of what so called nutritionist's say, as few are actually qualified, so one days have to take a lot of this with a pinch of salt....

I found this blog interesting to read http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/2008/04/vitamin-and-enzyme-supplements.html and it does appear that there is a known instance with the muscle ache but not with joints...

It is all too easy for all of us to believe what we read in papers and on the internet, but sometimes it can be difficult to find what is true.....

I think if you have a problem, as sirhandel does, and you try it and it works, fine....but do tell your doctor you are taking it as a supplement, as they do need to know that you are.

Glad you found something that works....

Carol


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## suedew

What a great and timely post, had bloods done last week which show i am at the 'high end' of the normal range.The muscle aches and pains keep me awake, and hinder me in my work. G P was also dismissive.
Am off now to get my supplements.
Have also stopped the statins, for about 2 weeks now, no change whatsoever, and my choleterol was finally under control.
So will also be restarting the medication.
Sue


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## MrsW

Sorry to sound a bit like an old school mistress, but did you not read the data sheet that came in the medication pack that came with the medication? If you have lost it, have a look here: http://emc.medicines.org.uk/searchresults.aspx?term=simvastatin&searchtype=AdvancedSearch

It states quite clearly that muscle pain can be a serious side effect of taking these drugs. "Tell your doctor immediately if you experience unexplained muscle pain, tenderness or weakness. This is because on rare occasions, there is a risk of muscle problems which may be serious, including muscle breakdown which can result in kidney damage. The doctor may perform a blood test to check the condition of your muscles before and after starting treatment.
Taking Simvastatin Tablets with food and drink: You should avoid drinking grapefruit juice during treatment with Simvastatin since it could increase your risk of muscle damage."

If you look on the emc website you can locate the PIL (patient information leaflet) for the specific product you are taking if you have lost the data sheet that came in the box. Before you start taking any medication you should always read this sheet so that you understand the pros and cons of taking it. You will then know what to expect and what to look out for when you begin to take the medication. As a Nurse Advisor for NHS Direct I frequently speak to patients who have not done so and are ringing to ask if they should expect this or that symptom when they are taking a particular drug.

GPs do have a duty to tell patients about side effects, but patients retain the responsibility to enquire after and look after their own health and well-being.

Carol, sihandel talks of muscle pain, not joint pain, so this information could be very pertinent to him.


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## 101776

Wow! was this a timely subject or what!

i have just been to my doctor (a week ago) for my 3 monthly diabetic check up and complained bitterly to him about the aches and pains, weakness and general feeling of fatigue I have been experiencing. Especially hips & knees.

I had read that statins can have this effect on certain people (He knows that I am sensitive to other drugs). So agreed that I could stop taking them for a month to see what happens.

Here I am one week later, no fatigue, no muscle weakness no aches and pains, not lost feeling in my hands at all (was waking up with numb fingers and very stiff).

Do I think there is a link between the statins and the aches yes definately. I am now going to read the article you posted.

By the way, it is a relief to know I'm not going 'nuts'.


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## Broom

Hi All

Been on Statins for 7 years, Cholesterol was 5.5 now 2.8, get the leg pain and cramps but still manage to walk 5 miles on a week day and up to 12 miles on the fells at weekends.

I have major problems with blood pressure, take 12 tablets a day for it, been told to keep walking and taking exercise, avoid stress where possible.

Best Regards
Broom


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## StAubyns

When I was first prescribed statins for cholesterol I was given 40mg pills - cant remember the brand - and after a couple of weeks I was scratching myself in my sleep to the extent that my legs were bleeding 8O 8O 

I am now on Lipitor 10mg with no problems and my cholesterol is below 4 (3.9) last check.

What I cant understand, when there are known problems, why start at 40mg?


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## ratporchrico

Check out red rice yeast as a substitute for statins and diets high in soya are know cholesterol reducers. There are many way to control cholesterol with diet and there is some controversy over whether heart incidents are the sole result of high cholesterol. There are also so call 'good' and 'bad' cholesterols so the subject is huge. Suffice it to say that information is there in massive quantities but internet based info needs to be taken intelingently and with due regard to the source. There are a lot of vested interests at work in this area in both the orthodox and 'alternative' fields and the poor old patient tends to get serious information overload that can leave the head spinning big time. 
I was getting problems from Simvastatin and have now resorted to red rice yeast and a diet high in soya and a number other supplements which would no doubt be frowned on by the mainstream. But, hey so far so good.


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## MrsW

StAubyns said:


> What I cant understand, when there are known problems, why start at 40mg?


That is actually the dose that research has shown is the most effective in reducing cholesterol to a satisfactory level. Hence that is a quite normal starter dose and the starting point of choice for GPs.


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## StAubyns

MrsW said:


> StAubyns said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I cant understand, when there are known problems, why start at 40mg?
> 
> 
> 
> That is actually the dose that research has shown is the most effective in reducing cholesterol to a satisfactory level. Hence that is a quite normal starter dose and the starting point of choice for GPs.
Click to expand...

Thanks, didn't know that


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## rolyk

I started taking Simvastatin 10mg in 2001. After 3 years the pain in my shoulders was so great I couldn't lift my arms above my head. I stopped taking them for a while and the pain went away but my chloresterol level increased so my doctor put me on Lipitor (Atorvastatin) 10mg and I've been fine ever since.

I've come across other people taking Simvastatin who have muscle / joint aches and pains so for anyone with these symptoms it might be worth trying an alternative statin.

Roly


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## maddie

Hi all as already said timely post :lol: 
6 weeks ago I was also put on statins -- the nurse told me 
cholesterol 5.9
weight 17 stone----- only ever move 2 pounds either side :lol: but he put weight at 18 stone because I got weighed on there scales in full clothing boots and coat ????
this came back off his chart at 
risk 18 % ??????????
he recommended that I take them.So being the good patent that I am,I am now on 40mg slinvis -stuff 75 mg asprin -coated
and 10 mg Omeprozole???
I go back next week to see how much my cholesterol has dropped ?
Now since this happened 6 weeks ago I have found out side effects -mine is a gypy- butterfly's stomach-- but more important they get paid for putting me on 3 tabs a day from never having to take anything ?
8O 
I think I am going to talk with my GP rather than the nurse to see if I should be on all this ?? Any comments please ?

terry


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## Pusser

Brill topic especially for hyperchondriacs like me. I was on 40 simvastatin but I too had butterfly belly (like a baby kicking I would imagine  ) and they changed me to ezetrol. An informative link is here...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...-makers-knew-didnt-work-How-COULD-happen.html


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## MrsW

maddie said:


> Hi all as already said timely post :lol:
> 6 weeks ago I was also put on statins -- the nurse told me
> cholesterol 5.9
> weight 17 stone----- only ever move 2 pounds either side :lol: but he put weight at 18 stone because I got weighed on there scales in full clothing boots and coat ????
> this came back off his chart at
> risk 18 % ??????????
> he recommended that I take them.So being the good patent that I am,I am now on 40mg slinvis -stuff 75 mg asprin -coated
> and 10 mg Omeprozole???
> I go back next week to see how much my cholesterol has dropped ?
> Now since this happened 6 weeks ago I have found out side effects -mine is a gypy- butterfly's stomach-- but more important they get paid for putting me on 3 tabs a day from never having to take anything ?
> 8O
> I think I am going to talk with my GP rather than the nurse to see if I should be on all this ?? Any comments please ?
> 
> terry


Terry, let me defend my profession and explain what you are on and perhaps why....

Simvastatin reduces cholesterol - yours, combined with your weight at or close to 18 stone puts you are risk of a stroke or heart attack. Both can be caused by blockages in blood vessels caused by the laying down of plaques or blobs of fat (cholesterol) inside the blood vessels. These slow down the blood supply, allowing more deposits until the blood can no longer flow adequately. If the heart is where this happens, you have either angina (where some blood is still flowing, but not enough to give enough oxygen to the heart muscle and so it hurts, hence the chest pain) or a heart attack where the blood stops completely to the part of the heart muscle supplied by that vessel and the muscle then dies causing permanent damage. If it is the brain where these happen, the former causes a TIA or mini stroke and the latter a stroke and subsequent loss of function. In either the heart or the brain these can be fatal.

Aspirin makes red blood cells less sticky, preventing them from clotting so easily. This means you reduce the chance of the blood clotting as it travels slower through the partially blocked blood vessels, reducing the chances of a stroke or heart attack.

Omeprazole prevents these 2 beneficial drugs from causing gastric irritation which they are prone to do and so means that treating one issue does not in turn cause a further problem. I do hope this information helps you to understand your treatment. I would urge you and all others who are prescribed medication to ask the prescriber (nurse or doctor) to explain what they are being given and why before you start taking them. IMHO the nurse is entirely correct to start you on these drugs in the circumstances you have outlined.


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## Gonewiththewind

Broom said:


> Hi All
> 
> Been on Statins for 7 years, Cholesterol was 5.5 now 2.8, get the leg pain and cramps but still manage to walk 5 miles on a week day and up to 12 miles on the fells at weekends.
> 
> I have major problems with blood pressure, take 12 tablets a day for it, been told to keep walking and taking exercise, avoid stress where possible.
> 
> Best Regards
> Broom


5.5 jesus, just been for a health check
BP 165/95
Cholesterol 7.8
BMI 25.

Doc is referring me to diabetic Nurse.

I feel positively Ill after reading this lot.


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## CaGreg

I have a heart defect which necessitates a full coronary work up every five or so years. My cholesterol was about 6.4 and my GP had started me on Lipitor, just before my cardiologist appointment. I suffered dreadful mood swings and anxiety attacks soon after starting it. I actually threw things at my husband!

All my cardiac tests came back fine, and when I was discussing the cholesterol issue with the cardiologist, he told me not to worry about it, that until statins had been invented and marketed, that a cholesterol level of up to 7 was considered fine, "in an otherwise healthy person" IJMPORTANT PROVISO
I told him that I had been having problems with the statin, and that I wasn't happy to continue with it, and he said that was absolutely fine.
I am a healthy weight, non-smoker, very light drinker, low BP and physically active, but I dread to think of how I would have been if I had continued to take the statin... (probably divorced). Statins DO have side effects, and they are being prescribed to a huge percentage of people with only slightly elevated cholesterol.
They are making HUGE profits for the pharmaceutical industry. I think that there will have to be some long term study about the benefits v risk.

Ca


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## maddie

Thank you for that insight MrsW  
I did understand the reasoning behind it all,and your diagnostic ? explanation puts me more at ease  I also considered me to have -thick blood- so the asprin was no bad thing I thought :lol: I did not think my cholesterol that high at 5.9 but who am I to know ? I have read that 5 is normal ,then 4 is better depending on what / where you read :lol: and also this could be lowered through diet. Must admit we do eat what we think is a healthy with lots of fruit and only grilled meats-never fried :lol: but I do like unhealthy wine gums :lol: and the odd chocolatey biccy :lol: 
The Practice is owned and run by the nurse in conjunction with my Gp and it did get my mind running away that they get paid for every one on the tablets :lol: indeed he wants to treat all the druggies around because they get paid extra :wink:  I do not blame them for getting there noses into the trough (IMO Better them than some MP ) but did ask my self if the money factor came into play? Also could they have played / made my weight more to alter the chart thing that he consulted?Although 17 st sounds a lot I do not think I am fat more well built / solid :lol: but if the charts are to be belived boardering obese :lol: Now reassured
terry


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## autostratus

sirhandel said:


> I've been taking Simvastatin for about 3 years since a medical MOT identified a rising cholesterol level that I couldn't control through diet. It does the job - my cholesterol level is now consistently below 5.0 but I have experienced increasing muscle discomfort/aches and weakness, particularly the big thigh Muscles. ...............................>


Wow









I've been on a low dose (20mg) Simvastatin for about 4 years now.

Some of you may remember that in 2006 I had an accident which resulted in trapped nerves in my neck and a 3 week stay in hospital for surgery.
I was left with nerve damage from my hands/arms and difficulty walking.
During physio I was having such considerable pain from my L knee that knee replacement was deemed necessary and I went over to have it done in France in Feb 2007.

Since then I have found it increasingly difficult to walk because of *awful pains in my thigh muscles* and even standing for a few minutes is terribly uncomfortable. Last year I had more physio in an attempt to build up the muscles but the pain continued unabated.
It's not surprising that our belief in all this time was that the muscle pain was as a result of the accident.

14 days ago we had some friends over for the day and during the course of conversation Mick mentioned that he had been getting muscle pains. He had stopped taking his simverstatin and had lost the pain after a few days.

*I stopped taking my simverstatin that night, 19 Feb and on Monday morning of this week, 2 March I got up and was astonished to find myself pain free in my thighs.*

I was going to start taking them again to see if the pain came back before visiting my GP for discussions but in view of what I've read here I don't think that will be necessary.
Doctor here I come.


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## aultymer

> but more important they get paid for putting me on 3 tabs a day from never having to take anything ?


Simple solution, don't use your prescription! Then their noses in the trough will come up a bit emptier. (that is if there is a shred of truth in your statement)
Interesting to see a joiners perspective on prescribing practice.


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## autostratus

aultymer said:


> ........Interesting to see a joiners perspective on prescribing practice.


Please explain.
I don't understand your comment.


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## andyangyh

Just been to see my GP and told him that I had taken myself off simvastatin after having muscle pain and weakness in both forearms. Looked at the Patient Advice leaflet in the pack when it first became evident and saw that this is a known side-effect of statins and the advice is to stop taking the drug immediately. My GP examined me and said that I did indeed have weakened muscles. In his experience this usually clears up within a week or so but it is possible that in my case (as in others reported in the literature) the damage can be permanent. I'm having blood tests to see if there is muscle damage. We were on our annual travels and it has now been almost 3 months since I stopped the simvastain. Oh - and statins can do nasty things to your kidneys too and I have a history of kidney stones.

I worked in the pharmaceutical industry for almost 30 years and am accordingly cynical about evidence that any drug should be prescribed for a large number of people for a long time. I remember when beta blockers were prescribed to everyone preventatively on similar grounds. Nowadays we know that their benefit in preventing heart attacks is, at best, marginal while their side-effects are numerous. 

Recent studies show that aspirin (another drug handed out to anyone at risk of heart attack) is now thought to be effective in only those patients who have already had a heart attack. The side-effects of aspirin range from the annoying (rash) to fatal (gastric bleeds). It's all about risk versus benefit. The "acceptable" level of cholesterol has been gradually reducing over the past few years. The evidence comes from pharmaceutical company sponsored trials which, not surprisingly, provide evidence for wide-scale prescribing of statins. Three years ago I would have been classed as having a perfectly healthy level of cholesterol. Now that same level is classed as needing treatment. Odd that the interest in treating "high" cholesterol has coincided with the arrival (and heavy promotion) of statins!

ALWAYS read the patient advice leaflet in the pack (that bit of paper that you usually throw away as it prevents you sliding the tablets back in!). It is a general rule of thumb that the more effective a drug is the more likely it is to have side-effects. Not infallible but worth bearing in mind


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## andyangyh

QUOTE "Omeprazole prevents these 2 beneficial drugs from causing gastric irritation which they are prone to do and so means that treating one issue does not in turn cause a further problem." 

I hate to take issue with a member of the medical profession but omeprazole won't prevent gastric erosion and, potentially a bleed but it is good in treating the discomfort. Arguably it masks symptoms. If you want to see what aspirin can do put a tablet between your bottom lip and your gum and let it dissolve. Then have a look at the mucosa. If you're lucky (for the purposes of illustration!) you will actually have induced a small bleed. In the interest of science try taking an omeprazole at the same time and see how much it decreases the redness etc. The answer (to save you the discomfort) is - no decrease at all. Now imagine that repeated on gastric mucosa in the stomach. Worse still, imagine it causing a catastrophic bleed. That is a real, though admittedly small, risk. What is true, however, is that there is no sense in giving aspirin as a preventative against MI (heart attack) to a group of patients in whom it is now thought to be of little benefit. My own GP is stopping using aspirin to treat patients with no previous history of heart attacks.

Remember how everyone used to take H2 antagonists (Tagamet etc for those not up on all this medical stuff)? Millions of people worldwide swallowing expensive drugs to lower gastric acid production and prevent gastric ulcers. Went on for years. Then it turned out that the culprit wasn't acid at all but a bug called h-pylori that you could get rid of with a short course of very cheap tablets. Collapse of Tagamet etc sales and millions of patients taken off a "preventative" that didn't do any such thing.

It's also not a good idea to prescribe one drug to counteract the side-effect of another. I respect and work with my GP but he is, like everyone else, fallible and subject to fashion and influence by vested interests (I know - 'cos those are his words). Patients, me included, need to take an active interest in how our conditions are managed.


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## aultymer

> I don't understand your comment.


It's always interesting to see other trades take on the advice they are given by other workers.
It is about as relevant as the comments I, as an engineer, might make on selecting wood for a particular task.

I am a bit worried that a poster can make a definitive statement about someone abusing the right to prescribe without a mod questioning that statement.
Were I his GP I would seriously consider suing.

No one needs to take the medicine prescribed. Adults can make their own judgment on whether they would prefer the symptoms or the side effects.

I have been on high dose statins, 80mg, twice a day for 19 years - the choice was another clogged artery and a shorter life or side effects and a longer life.


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## andyangyh

To answer a previous poster - GP's do not "have their snouts in the trough".

Having worked with GP's over many years I can say that the decision to prescribe a particular type of drug is almost exclusively a medical decision. If your GP decides you need your need your cholesterol lowering he will prescribe the type of drug (almost certainly a statin) that he thinks best.

HOWEVER:- GP's are human. He has a range of drugs to choose from. He is, rightly, under pressure to keep prescribing costs down so if he believes that all statins are roughly similar in effectiveness he will prescribe the cheapest. That usually means simvastatin. He might also have been to a conference to discuss the differences between different statins. This may well have been sponsored by a drug company that makes a particular brand. It may well have been in a nice location - Venice, Rome etc. He may come back from this meeting convinced that this other statin is a better choice. Like you and me he is capable of being swayed by a plausible argument. The Pharmaceutical Industry spends millions promoting their products (I know - I used to do that very thing). They wouldn't spend that money on promotion if it didn't produce results.

He also has other pressures. Read my previous posts to see how medical opinion changes with time (beta-blockers, H2 antagonists, aspirin etc). The local consultant (also subject to the same influences) will favour a particular regime or drug. It is rare to find two consultants with exactly the same favourite drugs.

Your GP is also given targets by the Government and part of the Practice income will depend on meeting targets for treating hypertension (high blood pressure), diabetes etc. There is a subtle pressure to uncover and treat conditions. 

A dispensing doctor (still exisiting in rural areas) acts as both physician and dispenser and will be able to negotiate discounts on drugs so he can get more profit from using one brand over another. The decision on how to treat will be taking on medical grounds but the choice of the actual brand of drug......?

None of this is dishonest or corrupt but it does explain why GP's make the decisions they do - and why they don't all make the same decisions. I am lucky. My GP discusses the options and we agree a plan of treatment. Don't stop taking your treatment or fail to get your prescription without discussing your treatment with your doctor. But don't just accept what you are given without being sure why you are getting what you are.


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## davoscar

I have been on statins for some years together with other drugs to control high BP. Some time ago my GP informed me by letter that as a general policy I was being changed to Simvastin ( a cost cutting exercise I think!) went along with it for some weeks but quickly developed aches and pains everywhere - elbows knees thighs etc. Accordingly went back and insisted on being re-instated on my former statin Atorvastatin ( same as Lipitor I think) or would stop altogether. To be fair he didn't argue and have been back on Atorvasatin 10 mg for a couple of years - Cholesterol is down to 3.4 and no aches and pains Hallelujah! So don't succomb to their cost saving exercies Simvastin certainly does not suit all - but may some...


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## mauramac

Amazing reading through all of the postings on here - if you multiply these numbers across the country there must be thousands of people on these drugs.

My husband is overweight - has been on and off for all his life and he is now suffering with high blood pressure and high cholesterol.

He is on Rosuvastatin (statin), Ezetrol (cholesterol absorption inhibitor) and Perindopril (ACE Inhibitor) for Blood Pressure.

All 3 of these medications have numerous side effects including muscle and joint pain. He was warned by his GP about this and told to avoid Grapefruit juice at any cost. He had the medication changed early on as one of the statins - possibly Simvastatin caused terrible muscle pains.

He doesn't suffer too much pain now but is always tired and falls asleep as soon as he sits in a comfortable chair or sofa - no matter what time of day it is, or how much sleep he has.

What I want to know is why don't the Doctors make the patients go and see a dietician or the surgery nurse to advise and encourage exercise and weight loss. I know he would benefit from this if he had someone other than me nagging him but it's never mentioned - they just dish out pills. If he had to attend weekly or fortnightly to be weighed and get checked out I know he would make more of an effort.

With half the country overweight or even obese it seems sad they no longer offer this type of help in the surgeries.

Thanks for starting this thread - very interesting reading.


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## billyfreda

*statins*

Funny you should mention aches and pains in joints and muscles. I too am on simvastatin and have been for 2 years since my heart attack. I have also read it can cause aches and pains, glad to hear we all suffer and i am not alone. 
I dont really mean GLAD TO HEAR we are all in the same boat ! ! !  . You know what i mean. Must talk to my Doc.

Billyfreda. :lol:


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## DTPCHEMICALS

I saw the title of this post and had to have a look.
Reason.
After an attack of gout whilst on hols last year, thankfully the only one so far. I decided to see doc for a check up. Previouse check up was 8 years previous. And at 57 was reaching age of dads heart attack. Receptionist told me that as i was not ill or being treated for anything there was no need for a check up.

Result
Changed doctors. First visit blood samples weight check and bp check
Cholesterol 6.4 weight 15 st 1lb stone too heavy bp 160/100

Since July i have been on Simvastatin now 40mg
Ramipril 10mg Vascalpha 10mg and aspirin75mg

We eat very healthilly skimmed milk little cheese the odd red wine and whiskey never smoked etc and i punish myself twice a day for up to 30 minutes on crosstrainer.
Cholesterol now 5.9 weight 14st 10lb bp 143/100

The only side effects i have noticed are Arthritic pain in left big toe joints has gone and the tinitus i have had for years is more constant than before.


Docs again on Friday

Dave P




No fun in getting mature


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## ratporchrico

Very interested in the way this thread is developing. It is certainly apparent that if there's one overiding message in all this it's that we should get involved in our own health problems and not expect some magic bullet to make up for a poor lifestyle or bad diet. 
GPs, with the best will in the world are subject to extraordinary high pressure techniques (think Canary Island timeshare touts only much more sophisticated) and that there is a growing lobbying from Big Pharma for an inexorable increase in the prescribing of statins. Part of the case for statin prescribing is their lack of side effects! This forum is in now way scientifically valid but, given the large number of forum members reporting side effects, some of them quite serious, it seems that at least part of the 'statins for everyone' campaign is just plain wrong. Add to that the steadily decreasing level of 'healthy' cholesterol based on, as has been previously said, drug company trials, the rapidly escalating bill to the NHS for possibly unnecessary prescriptions and it's evident that this is one HUGE can of worms.
Trouble is every one of the cases reported here is different and I'd almost guarentee that each individual case nationwide is subtly different so blanket advice is unhelpful. Yet isn't that what we're getting from GPs in general?


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## maddie

autostratus said:


> aultymer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ........Interesting to see a joiners perspective on prescribing practice.
> 
> 
> 
> Please explain.
> I don't understand your comment.
Click to expand...

 :lol: I think aultymer knows I am a joiner by trade :lol: at least I hope that is what he means :lol: 
terry


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## autostratus

maddie said:


> aultymer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ........Interesting to see a joiners perspective on prescribing practice.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: I think aultymer knows I am a joiner by trade :lol: at least I hope that is what he means :lol:
> terry
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation.
It would have been helpful if aultymer had used the quote button as in a fast moving thread an answer can soon become detached from the post being referred to.


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## aultymer

Dear autostratus, if the poster I was having a go at understood perhaps you need to read through the whole thread before commenting on an individual post. It wasn't that fast moving!


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## autostratus

aultymer said:


> Dear autostratus, if the poster I was having a go at understood perhaps you need to read through the whole thread before commenting on an individual post. It wasn't that fast moving!


If you post on a public forum you are posting for all to read and for all to understand. If you want a one to one discussion the PM system is there to be used.

As I was particularly interested in this thread (my post on my experiences with simverstatin is there for you to read too) I did read all the posts and having read them again feel justified in having asked you to explain your post.


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## gdleeds

Chol test 7.4 put on 40 gram statins, aches in leg muscle changes to 20 gram down to 4.5 just had another test last week now 3.8 no aches

works for me, b in l is a pathologist told me to go onto 75 ml asprin, keeps the blood thin

stopped smoking 15 months ago after 40 years, 

weight now my problem, cannot win!!


----------



## spence

I have been on simvistatin, ramipril, antenelol and aspirin since my angioplasty last may. No pains but i do feel less motivated and my eczema is getting worse!! The problem i have is I am 34 and could be on these for another 50 years!! My doctor even said they did not know what the long term side effects would be as i am very young to be on this cocktail.
I am told it's just the way i am built.

Spence


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## teamsaga

Hi
if you want to confuse the statin issue even further google memory loss statins . I was put on simvastatin 40 mg after heart problems, because of the side effects this was reduced to 20mg. This eliminated the pains, but my memory began to deteriorate and I had short periods of confusion. After researching memory loss, I stopped the statins and put myself on a very low fat diet. I overdid it because while I reduced my cholesterol to 3.5 I lost too much weight. everything in moderation.
G.P.s are rewarded for meeting government targets, one of which is statin prescribing.
You can make your own decisions.


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## 88735

I take simvistatin (along with a host of other preventative medicine) and have no bad side affects, my simvasatin is prescribed to be taken in the evening, but I know people who take theirs in the morning and suffer from muscle aches.


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## Penquin

One of the reasons why the statin type drugs have been recommended is not to do with drug company trials but with peer reviewed clinical studies by professional cardiologists. The recommendation comes from the marked reduction in the cholesterol level of users c/w the normal level in the community.

High cholesterol is directly linked with a markedly increased risk of cardiovascular problems, clogging of the arteries (atherosclerosis) is a well known and widely reported problem (I have to teach it as part of GCSE level biology - it's that well known!).

Narrowing of the arteries can and will cause problems in supplying enough blood to the tissue that artery serves. All cells need a good supply of oxygen, delivered by the blood, in order to function as living cells. If that supply is interrupted, even for a few minutes, death of that cell will usually follow. Very few cells can survive without oxygen for more than a few minutes, some for very little time at all.

Statins were discovered in the 1970's after isolation from a fungus. The recognition of their beneficial properties has resulted in their widespread use. There are a large number of different drugs now included in this group all of which have a proven benefit on cholesterol levels and other factors. During some of the original blind trials with 18,000 patients the trials were stopped as the benefits were so clearly marked - these are quoted as;

*"Investigators found reductions in stroke, heart attack, and need for bypass surgery of about 50% in the statin treated group. There was also a 20% reduction in mortality"*

extracted from Wikipedia, source given as; Ridler PM, Danielson E, Fonseca FAH, et al. (2008). "Rosuvastatin to prevent vascular events in men and women with elevated C-reactive protein". NEJM 359: 2195-207. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/reprint/NEJMoa0807646v1.pdf.

Their use is strongly supported in the UK by such organisations as the *British Heart Foundation*;

http://www.bhf.org.uk/living_with_a_heart_condition/treatment/statins.aspx

*Diabetes UK* supports their use for Type 1 and Type 2 diabetics;

http://www.diabetes.org.uk/en/About_us/News_Landing_Page/2003/2758/

amongst others. The comments made about muscle pains have already been tackled - reference to the Patient Information Sheet or the many sites on the web also indicates these known side-effects.

The reason why they are so beneficial is to cut the cost of trying to solve a problem caused by a blockage - not just the cost to the NHS as regards the medical, nursing, support and financial care that is needed after a blockage, but even more important the cost to the individual directly concerned and their family and relatives.

Having dealt with people having heart attacks, and with others having suffered strokes or TIA's I am well aware of the human cost to those people - the loss of freedom to move, look after oneself, enjoy some aspects of life - the list is lengthy, but every item on that list is a reduction in the quality of life for the sufferer.

The levels of acceptable cholesterol have changed over the years - that is called progress as new discoveries are made. A few years ago a cholesterol level of 8 would have been tolerated in some people, now for many the required level is less than 4. Many other factors are taken into account when deciding the required level, such as other illnesses or conditions, medical history, family history, lifestyle, diet, exercise level, smoking and so on. A few years ago none of these would have been considered, but then sadly many people literally died where they stood. Medical care and advice have improved markedly over the years and statins have contributed to that care.

They are cost-effective; even when used for a large number of people - the cost of looking after someone who has had a serious heart attack can run into many thousands of pounds.

Comments have been made about the use of aspirin - this drug is of proven benefit to diabetics with a history of heart problems - true. The recent survey showed that there was no discernable benefit to diabetics without a history of heart problems but it is left to the patient to make the choice about whether they wish to continue taking them or not. No-one compels someone to take these tablets - ask the right questions *BEFORE* you accept the prescription so that you are well-informed and know why your Doctor has prescribed them for you and what possible side-effects may be encountered.

I will certainly continue to take mine and would not regard the "Daily Mail" as a definitive accurate source of medical information.


----------



## aultymer

> If you post on a public forum you are posting for all to read and for all to understand. If you want a one to one discussion the PM system is there to be used.


Nice of you to remind me Mod but this is a bit {offtopic}


----------



## roger-the-lodger

While I'm sympathetic to anyone with medical problems there seems to be a bit of paranoia in some posts on this thread. GPs with noses in troughs; big pharma virtually forcing ineffective and dodgy drugs down innocent patients' throats. Surely the truth is that a lot of modern medication has side effects but it also keeps you alive - that's largely why statistically we live longer in spite of our statistically unhealthy lifestyles.

But you're not safe from the hand of fate even with the healthiest lifestyle imaginable and when you're very fit. Your genes can still bite you! My family history is terrible - both parents with high blood pressure, my Dad with angina at 50; the problems went back to grandparents too, also on both sides. I knew this so I've always had a healthy diet and done lots of exercise. Just over 5 years ago at 58 and with no previous problems I had a heart attack 2 weeks after running a full marathon. In the preceding 12 months I had run 2 full marathons (including London), 3 half-marathons and 6 10Ks. I was running 40 miles a week in training. I'm 5ft 10 ins and at the time I weighed 68 kilos and had a 31 inch waist. I had jaw (not chest) pain on my first 5 mile training run after the marathon and ran through it. 2 days later I had a repeat lasting 15 minutes, not related to exercise and bad enough to have to lie down. I saw the GP that evening, he did an ECG and sent me straight to coronary care - tests confirmed an MI.

I had been so fit no-one had previously tested me for anything but in hospital they found my cholesterol was 6.8 and BP well above normal. God knows what the BP had been when running all those hours a week!

I was lucky. 2 sessions of angioplasty later I was back to running though I no longer race at any distance and I do more walking including fell walking more in respect to my joints than the heart. In spite of the angioplasties I rely on Nicorandil (2 x 20mg pd) to keep angina at bay during vigorous exercise. My medication includes 40mg pd Simvastatin which keeps my cholesterol around 2.8. Yes it gives me grief - what would you imagine?

I sympathise with the poster who was (is?) a runner. The advice leaflet doesn't allow for runners - I expect it was written by one of the vast majority of those in the medical profession who think we cardiovascular risk cases are all couch potatoes and probably smoke as well. 

If you run hard or climb a mountain your muscles usually ache anyway so if I took the leaflet's advice I'd be off down the doc's every day! I asked my GP - how do I tell if it's just a hard run or more drug-induced pain than I should accept - guess what - he didn't have an answer to that!

I'm told I suffer from familial hypercholesterolaemia - my tendency to high cholesterol is down to inheritance and not diet. I have no choice but to take a statin to control it if I want to stay alive (and I do, oh yes I do).

Atorvastatin is certainly a more "designed" drug than simva (and more expensive) but large scale and well run comparitive trials show little difference in efficacy and outcomes (mortality rates, repeat events).

Finally, a simple explanation as given to me by my doctor: statins do interfere with muscle fuelling (synthesis of glycogen) - hence this unpleasant side effect (especially unwelcome to exercise enthusiasts). But they lower cholesterol where nothing else will and where it's vital to do so. They lower the "bad" cholesterol (LDL and VLDL) that poses the risk but also the "good" cholesterol (HDL) and that lower HDL results in the side effect. 

You keep taking the tablets and put up with it or you die earlier. Your choice!


----------



## MrsW

andyangyh said:


> QUOTE "Omeprazole prevents these 2 beneficial drugs from causing gastric irritation which they are prone to do and so means that treating one issue does not in turn cause a further problem."
> 
> I hate to take issue with a member of the medical profession but omeprazole won't prevent gastric erosion and, potentially a bleed but it is good in treating the discomfort. Arguably it masks symptoms. If you want to see what aspirin can do put a tablet between your bottom lip and your gum and let it dissolve. Then have a look at the mucosa. If you're lucky (for the purposes of illustration!) you will actually have induced a small bleed. In the interest of science try taking an omeprazole at the same time and see how much it decreases the redness etc. The answer (to save you the discomfort) is - no decrease at all. Now imagine that repeated on gastric mucosa in the stomach. Worse still, imagine it causing a catastrophic bleed. That is a real, though admittedly small, risk. What is true, however, is that there is no sense in giving aspirin as a preventative against MI (heart attack) to a group of patients in whom it is now thought to be of little benefit. My own GP is stopping using aspirin to treat patients with no previous history of heart attacks.
> 
> Remember how everyone used to take H2 antagonists (Tagamet etc for those not up on all this medical stuff)? Millions of people worldwide swallowing expensive drugs to lower gastric acid production and prevent gastric ulcers. Went on for years. Then it turned out that the culprit wasn't acid at all but a bug called h-pylori that you could get rid of with a short course of very cheap tablets. Collapse of Tagamet etc sales and millions of patients taken off a "preventative" that didn't do any such thing.
> 
> It's also not a good idea to prescribe one drug to counteract the side-effect of another. I respect and work with my GP but he is, like everyone else, fallible and subject to fashion and influence by vested interests (I know - 'cos those are his words). Patients, me included, need to take an active interest in how our conditions are managed.


Please read my post more carefully before taking issue with it. If you do you will see that what I said is that "Omeprazole prevents these 2 beneficial drugs from causing gastric *irritation *". I made no mention of gastric erosion, a quite different issue.


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## StAubyns

An interesting subject, but am I the only that experienced the severe itching/scratching?


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## ratporchrico

There was a saying in the sixties the 'just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you' and yes I plead guilty to the paranoia accusation and yes your genes can bite you unexpectedly (as a fit person all my life windsurfing all day in force 5-6 winds, once even force 10!) I was surprised to become ill in my mid-fifties and, having been in the 'alternative' medicine field for most of my working life was delighted to be saved by steroids and chemotherapy. These offered me a temporary respite though and on a subsequent stem-cell transplant (another amazing technique with fantastic results but some controversy) it was discovered that I had a cardiac artery which was 95% occluded and I was immediately put on statins (Simvastatin 40mg-standard fare for us cardiac cases), aspirin and omerprazole. After an angioplasty (more fantastic high-tech stuff) I was left on the statins but after some discussions with my GP, who has been more than helpful, I have pursued some alternative methods that are not as mainstream but are currently reported in trials to be as effective. My life, my choice and all along the way there is no doubt that modern medical techniques have come up trumps and, not to over-dramatise, saved my life. So I'm under no illusion as to the efficacy of medical techniques or their value to the population in general. That is not in question.
However, scientific evaluation is one thing, political lobbying is quite another and after a lifetime of following the shennanigans and skullduggery of the pharmaceutical companies I take my medication with a very large pinch of salt (bad for your BP ) and do a great deal of research of the available literature. Almost as if the NYT were reading this forum this appeared yesterday to illustrate my point. (Note it's in the business section) 
New York Times 
Things are not always what they seem sadly and the sums of money involved would make Sir Fred's pension look like pocket money and where those kinds of sums are involved many peoples morals seem to be dictated by expedience.

Science is a continuum and todays medicines sometimes turn out to be tomorrows black-hatted baddies so all we, as the patient, can do is to find out as much as possible and make your decision in the 'now' You will either live or die by that decision but only you can make it and there's one thing certain about life, it's the only certain thing and that is that none of us gets out of it alive.


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## maddie

aultymer said:


> If you post on a public forum you are posting for all to read and for all to understand. If you want a one to one discussion the PM system is there to be used.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice of you to remind me Mod but this is a bit {offtopic}
Click to expand...

Hi aultymer,please explain to me why you are intent on having a go at MYSELF for explaining what has happened to me,and now Autostratus for asking what you meant ?
As to the GP suing just exactly what have I said that is not true?
The surrgery/ pratice is owned/run by the nurse,pratice manager and now the new doctor (the old one at 65 plus did not want to do it)
They get paid for putting me/others on pills
They also want to treat local druggies because they get paid more for it
ALL my other comments have question marks after them and in doing so I feel that they are asking NOT definitive statements.

Yes I did understand your go at me but decided to let it go in the interest of the topic which I found very interesting.
Autostratus simply asked a Q HE did not understand and now you have turned it compleatly OFF TOPIC and have the nerve to comment off topic 8O 
My apologies to everyone for taking this subject off topic one again-
terry
EDIT calling AS she instead of he :lol:


----------



## aultymer

> They get paid for putting me/others on pills


This is the bit I quoted in my post before and was the only real issue in question. 
Off course they get paid to do this THAT'S THEIR JOB, but the way you put it, you were only put on 3 pills from nothing because they got paid to put you on pills. 
Are you seriously suggesting that your GP and practice nurses benefit financially from prescribing medication for you apart from their Basic Practice Allowance, Target Awards and wages? 
The awards are for detection and treatment - not prescribing as such.

Many GPs will tell of frequent letters from the Prescribing Agency demanding that they reduce the spend via prescribing. 
Why do you think there are squeals of "postcode lottery" when one Health Board area allows spending on a drug and another does not?

As I said before - If you think your prescription is not needed then don't get it dispensed - that way no one will benefit from it. (Mainly you!)


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## maddie

Hi aultymer,I did not mean it that way :lol: (a little censorship in the quote) and I do trust both DOC and nurse :wink: 
Back on topic now :wink: 
terry


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## MrsW

maddie said:


> Hi aultymer,I did not mean it that way :lol: (a little censorship in the quote) and I do trust both DOC and nurse :wink:
> terry


Phew, that's a relief!!! :lol: :lol:


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## aultymer

Truly sorry if I misunderstood you Maddie. 

Did you know that a study about 10 years ago demonstrated that Fins (I think it was) were more likely to die a violent death if on Statins. This included car, aircraft and train crashes where the victims pill taking could not influence the incident. 
There is also a theory that people on statins have shorter tempers than those not in statins - explains a lot methinks.


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## zulurita

Well I was diagnosed with high cholestrol of 8 + so have started the diet thing!

I read up the side effects of statins (I still had one of my old books) and decided I wasn't too keen on the side effects and the muscle thing being one of them.

So I am hoping the diet works! I have lost about 7 lbs so thats something I guess. Will only know how its helped after the next blood test.

At least knowing about Q10 is a help but would ask for a different statin if the muscle thing developed.


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## Penquin

Zulurita said; _"*high cholestrol of 8 + so have started the diet thing*"_

According to my consultant *IF you took out all cholesterol *from your diet it *MIGHT* drop your blood cholesterol by about 5% of its present value.....

He also pointed out (and confirmed my own teaching knowledge) that if you do not have any cholesterol in your diet your body actually manufactures it since it is an essential compound for parts of the cell's activities.

He strongly supports the use of statins; he takes them himself, and that to me was a powerful argument since I implicitly trust him, having known him for 20+ years and having looked after his children when they went through the school.

Simvastatin is only one of a whole group of similar substances, some of them will not have the same side effects and are taken first thing in the morning, simvastatin *MUST* be taken just before bed for reasons of how it works.

Hope this helps you arrive at a sound decision - do discuss it with your Doctor and specialist; the correct decision for *you* is important and may well not be the same as other people's!


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## zulurita

Penquin said:


> Zulurita said; _"*high cholestrol of 8 + so have started the diet thing*"_
> 
> According to my consultant *IF you took out all cholesterol *from your diet it *MIGHT* drop your blood cholesterol by about 5% of its present value.....
> 
> He also pointed out (and confirmed my own teaching knowledge) that if you do not have any cholesterol in your diet your body actually manufactures it since it is an essential compound for parts of the cell's activities.
> 
> He strongly supports the use of statins; he takes them himself, and that to me was a powerful argument since I implicitly trust him, having known him for 20+ years and having looked after his children when they went through the school.
> 
> Simvastatin is only one of a whole group of similar substances, some of them will not have the same side effects and are taken first thing in the morning, simvastatin *MUST* be taken just before bed for reasons of how it works.
> 
> Hope this helps you arrive at a sound decision - do discuss it with your Doctor and specialist; the correct decision for *you* is important and may well not be the same as other people's!


Thanks for that penquin

I must admit looking at the side effects did put me off somewhat.

My GP wants to see how the diet side works first but from what you say looks like I may will need these damn tablets! Oh well!

I have always been active through out life so far, I did athletics in my youth etc.

Still its not a bad thing for me to lose a bit of weight as I am about a stone over weight! or rather was as I've lost some this past 3 weeks.


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## Chris_s

Just to add to the discussion - I was taking Simvastatin but stopped taking it due to a different problem. To try to reduce my cholesterol level I started to take Omega 3,6 and 9 capsules - just 1 per day. The only other changes I made were to use Pro-active Flora and order some skimmed milk to replace semi-skimmed milk. We now use 50:50 skimmed:semi skimmed per week. My cholesterol is within 'normal' boundaries. 

I must say that I do eat a varied diet including my 5 (at least) per day but love my bacon buttie for breakfast about 3-4 days per week. I suppose we do tend to eat a low fat diet which includes more olive oil than butter too. My diabetes is controlled by tablets and diet and while I seem to find it very difficult to lose weight, all health tests seem to be within normal limits.

IMHO it is far better to try to use natural food and supplements than to take drugs. The problem can be finding what suits the individual best!
Chris_s


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## aultymer

Having started at a cholesterol level of 14.9 I am still happily taking my simvastatin 17 years on from my angioplasty.
Diet changes made a 10% difference to my level so statins it is.
If I can't live with the side effects then I don't live!


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## zulurita

Thanks Chris,

Like you I prefer not to take tablets.

Luckily for me my sugar levels are ok so its just the high cholestrol. I started the Flora pro activ to see if that helps.

I always thought I ate healthily but do like cake and biscuits. So have cut out the biscuits and only one piece of cake (with canderel instead of sugar) and not eating between meal has already helped weight wise!

Proof will be when I have a repeat blood test in April.

Only trouble eating more fruit.........probably too much, it upsets the stomach! So really everything in moderation..........as I have always said!!

I thnk we can get paranoid with all this.............so........


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## locovan

Penquin said:


> Zulurita said; _"*high cholestrol of 8 + so have started the diet thing*"_
> 
> According to my consultant *IF you took out all cholesterol *from your diet it *MIGHT* drop your blood cholesterol by about 5% of its present value.....
> 
> He also pointed out (and confirmed my own teaching knowledge) that if you do not have any cholesterol in your diet your body actually manufactures it since it is an essential compound for parts of the cell's activities.
> 
> He strongly supports the use of statins; he takes them himself, and that to me was a powerful argument since I implicitly trust him, having known him for 20+ years and having looked after his children when they went through the school.
> 
> Simvastatin is only one of a whole group of similar substances, some of them will not have the same side effects and are taken first thing in the morning, simvastatin *MUST* be taken just before bed for reasons of how it works.
> 
> Hope this helps you arrive at a sound decision - do discuss it with your Doctor and specialist; the correct decision for *you* is important and may well not be the same as other people's!


 simvastatin MUST be taken just before bed for reasons of how it works

What happens if Ray takes them in the morning then I didnt know he should take them at night.
I know why he does so that he doesnt miss taking them 
mavis

PS at 11.15 I have found the answer and i will make sure Ray does take them at night.
------------------------------------------------------

Why must Statins be taken at bedtime? Most medications are taken in the morning with breakfast, what does our body do while we are asleep that makes the Statin drugs work best at night?

Our bodies make more cholesterol at night, during sleep, than during the daytime. The Statin drugs, also known as HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors, reduce the liver's production of cholesterol by interfering with HMG-CoA reductase, an enzyme necessary for the body's manufacture of cholesterol. While these drugs slow down the production of cholesterol, they increase the ability of the liver to remove the LDL (bad) cholesterol from the blood. These drugs are hard at work while we are sleeping.


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## zulurita

locovan said:


> mavis
> 
> PS at 11.15 I have found the answer and i will make sure Ray does take them at night.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Why must Statins be taken at bedtime? Most medications are taken in the morning with breakfast, what does our body do while we are asleep that makes the Statin drugs work best at night?
> 
> Our bodies make more cholesterol at night, during sleep, than during the daytime. The Statin drugs, also known as HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors, reduce the liver's production of cholesterol by interfering with HMG-CoA reductase, an enzyme necessary for the body's manufacture of cholesterol. While these drugs slow down the production of cholesterol, they increase the ability of the liver to remove the LDL (bad) cholesterol from the blood. These drugs are hard at work while we are sleeping.


Thanks for that Mavis.


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## aultymer

Co Q10 just arrived - will let you know (if I survive) how I get on.


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## mauramac

Look I know being overweight is not good and we should all try to eat less fat etc etc but a few years ago I worked with a lady who was in her early 40's, weighed about 8 stone and was really fit, ran, played sports etc. She had a dangerously high cholesterol level and had to go on medication immediately.....much to her disgust. She only found out by accident about her bad chol levels.

So, I am sure you will find there is no hard and fast rules about who and why suffer with this relatively new complaint. It can effect fat and thin people equally.

Anything that gets us to look at our diet and lifestyle and make changes for the better is good but I do worry about all these side effects long term.

Another friend I know swears by HRT - says it has given her back her life, she has more energy and enjoys life again BUT is also gave her very high blood pressure which she nows takes more pills for. My argument is the bad effects from Menopause wont kill you and will eventually pass, it is just part of life after all, but the side effects from high blood pressure might.

Not an expert in Statins but does anyone know how they potentially effect the kidneys or liver for example? If they get damaged due to taking statins then how can you repair that damage - more tablets or what?


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## MrsW

Ok, lets look at this bit by bit... it is not a new condition, it may have had its profile raised recently, but strokes and heart attacks have been killing the population for many, many years. These are caused, to a large extent, by a loss of circulation due to a build up of deposits (plaque) in the blood vessels. This is essentially the excess cholesterol.

HRT has given your friend back her life she says. It may also have saved the life of any parthner and their relationship. Please remember that the bad effects of menopause can drive women to suicide or murder and make their life totally intolerable. Some women get some side effects from medication (as do some men from some of theirs). It is up to each individual to weigh up the pluses and minuses for them as an individual and then make an informed choice. My personal view is that we should not condemn others for the medical choices they make as we are not living their lives. If you friend now has hypertension, I would advise that she should talk with her GP about whether there is a form of HRT that supresses her menopausal symptoms but does less to raise her blood pressure.

In this life it is all about balancing risk and effect. As someone who spends their life offerring professional clinical advice to others I would not want to tell any woman she should not take HRT (other than those for whom it is clinically contra-indicated).

You may find this website helpful in considering the effects of statins, both benefits and potential harm; http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Choles...ges/Introduction.aspx?url=Pages/whatisit.aspx


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## mauramac

Well Mrs W that was a bit of an over reaction wasn't it?
"Saved the life of her partner and their relationship"
You are assuming that she even has a partner aren't you?

You also assumed I condemned taking HRT - not at all. My comments were that the effects she was suffering, tiredness etc would eventually pass and were not life threatening. She was not suicidal - merely tired. Having high blood pressure she seemed to accept as something she could deal with by taking more medication - not all doctors give their patient the time to discuss things fully and not all patients ask!

These were my observations and my own personal opinion. I am not qualified and therefore did not and would not proffer any advice to this friend - other than to ask her GP for further advice.

Not everyone suffering menopause is driven to murder or suicide - what an extreme view. There are many other ways of improving life for ourselves as we go through this ageing process but I would happily slap on a patch if the medical profession could guarantee that there would be no life threatening side effects. It's just not worth the risk....again this is just my opinion.


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## MrsW

Sorry, "has" given her back, should have read "may have" and the references to a partner are , as you say pure supposition. My sentiment however remains the same. We are all individuals and all suffer differently. It must always be down to personal choice. Your friend is fortunate that she was not suicidal, many women are.

*I will go back into the post and edit it.* No offence was intended. (please note also no gender of partner mentioned, no intention of being sexist/ judgemental etc, etc).


----------



## cris15

Hi All
Just found this thread I was on simvastatin 40mg for about 2 years, I was O.K for the first 18 months then had severe side effects and decided to stop the statins and take my chances with high cholesterol.

I can honestly say I would rather have the heart attack than go through the side effects again, its taken six months for me to recover.
If you get the feeling that old age is creeping up on you it's the statins.

My side effects which have all disappeared since I stopped the statins included.
Memory loss, lack of concentration, back and leg pain, visual problems, breathing problems, severe headaches, severe toothaches, mood swings, loss of libido, strange dreams, strange thoughts, anxiety, depression (hardly surprising).

If you're taking statins please be very careful be aware of the above problems they creep up very slowly.
When I decided to quit the drugs I was at the point of thinking I was on the brink of a severe mental illness thankfully I have almost recovered.

Have a look here lots of info on statins.
http://www.spacedoc.net/
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Stopped_Our_Statins/
Good Luck


----------



## locovan

cris15 said:


> Hi All
> Just found this thread I was on simvastatin 40mg for about 2 years, I was O.K for the first 18 months then had severe side effects and decided to stop the statins and take my chances with high cholesterol.
> 
> I can honestly say I would rather have the heart attack than go through the side effects again, its taken six months for me to recover.
> If you get the feeling that old age is creeping up on you it's the statins.
> 
> My side effects which have all disappeared since I stopped the statins included.
> Memory loss, lack of concentration, back and leg pain, visual problems, breathing problems, severe headaches, severe toothaches, mood swings, loss of libido, strange dreams, strange thoughts, anxiety, depression (hardly surprising).
> 
> If you're taking statins please be very careful be aware of the above problems they creep up very slowly.
> When I decided to quit the drugs I was at the point of thinking I was on the brink of a severe mental illness thankfully I have almost recovered.
> 
> Have a look here lots of info on statins.
> http://www.spacedoc.net/
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Stopped_Our_Statins/
> Good Luck


My Ray has been taken them for 9 years and gets all those side affects.
Did you stop taking them and did you tell the doctor you had done so.
Has your cholestral stayed OK since


----------



## cris15

Hi Mavis.
The side effects I mentioned were only some of the weird things that happened to me whilst taking that poison.

You may have guessed I now have a bad hate for statins.

Yes I quit statins six months ago and I did tell my doctor I had done so and why.
Doctors tend to treat reports of statin side effects with scepticism, I think partly because of brain washing by the drug companies but more because the side effects take so long to surface that they don't connect it with the statins.

Anyway after doing a lot of research on statins I argued my case and convinced him I was having real problems.
Yes my cholesterol is still high about 7 I think but I have decided a short happy life is better than the life/existence I had on statins.
This is another link worth a read statins might extend your life but they also mess with your mind as well as your body.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...cutting-cholesterol-But-sinister-effects.html

I think the drug companies know there is a problem with statins but they make £60 billion a year from them.
I read 70% of people on statins do not renew their prescription after two years


----------



## ramos

*simvastatins*

Ive been on statins now for 9 years I was diagnosed diabetic having gone to the doctors just after I retired complaining of hearing my blood rushing in my head at night that I could not sleep. It resulted in a bloodpressure reading of 210/120. High blood pressure he said you are at serious risk of heart attack and a stroke . Also the good news is you are diabetic.
Result lots of pills everyday for blood pressure and Statins. I was on Lipitor but after 2 years of cramps muscle pain no labido numbness of fingers, I was changed to Simvastatin.
Basicly no change I still have muscle fatigue tight joints extremity numbness the so calle periperal neuropathy permanent constipation occaisional headaches constant tiredness itchy skin new spectacles every 2 years .
But I am still alive I walk the dog on about 3 mile walk EVERY day. Still do all my own DIY painting decorating and whatever else comes my way.
I try to remain active and positive. Ive often thought of stopping the statins but my GP advises against this as the good outways the bad. 
So anyone out there who has stopped statins long term I would be keen to hear from you.
ramos


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

I have permanent tinitus it was sporadic before statins.
but i still keep my pecker up


Dave P


----------



## cris15

Hi Ramos
In my case there was no good just bad, I realise I am running the stroke/heart attack risk but am prepared to accept whatever hand fate decides to deal me.

I would honestly rather be dead than go through life on statins (that’s how bad it was for me).
Apart from the physical effects the mental effects I can only describe as mind warping.
I would say it is what I think it must be like to have outzimers, I am normally a happy go lucky type of man always got a smile on my face but I was having very dark/weird thoughts when on statins, I am now full of life and smiling again thankfully.

The daily mail link I posted above offers an explanation of the mental effects of statins.


----------



## pneumatician

*Statins*

I also have been on Statins for about 6 years. I read the leaflet, researched the internet, consulted my diabetic site.
Then I went to see the Doctor and told him of the pain in the legs, back and kidney area. He said the Statins and pain were unrelated and I had rhumatism and gave me cream to rub in. 
I have stopped taking the statins for short periods but chickened out and restarted again 
Don't really know what to do for the best.


----------



## MrsW

Ramos, many of the symptoms you describe could well be attributable to diabetes rather to a statin. Loss of libido, peripheral neuropathy, cramps, muscle pain, numbness of fingers (which is peripheral neuropathy), constant tiredness, muscle fatigue, and tight joints, certainly, and the changing eyesight could all be diabetes related. That is not to say however that they could not be iatrogenic (posh name for caused by the medication). It is well woth having a chat with your GP. Meanwhile I applaud your decision to stick with the medication. The result of a significant stroke which does not kill you but leaves you neurologically damaged can be devestating.


----------



## ramos

That is so true thanks for taking the time to confirm Im doing the right thing. :lol:


----------



## Dougle

Evening all,
I have just spotted this thread. I have been on statins for 6 years since my first 'heart attack' and later having a stent fitted. Got off lightly really, but my cause was very high cholesterol [in the family] as I learned. I have not had any side effects [that I know of] but I just wanted to say that, I have been on Simvastatin all this time. That was until last month, when I had another 'attack' and a second stent fitted. The point is, following this event, my consultant informed me he wanted to change my statin to Atorvastatin as it was far more beneficial for my condition. It may not be the answer for those of you who are suffering, but it may be worth asking the question about a change of tablet?
This is obviously a purely personal observation / reaction but there are alternatives.
Best of luck to all concerned.

Regards

Dave


----------



## Pusser

I'm back on simvistatin 40's and showed the doc this...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...-makers-knew-didnt-work-How-COULD-happen.html

and decided butterfly belly was better than taking something that no one knows works or not. I was surprised to hear that the above pill in the link is the NHS second line after sinvistatin. Hate to think what the third line is.... probably 20mg placebo's


----------



## cris15

Mrs W, as you are connected with the medical profession perhaps you would be good enough to explain something that has puzzled many people.
Why do G.Ps doubt that statins cause the side effects reported by so many people?

It seems to me that it’s always, it could be this or that, but never the statins, you did it yourself in your answer to Ramos although you did admit the possibility of a statin link which upon reading other forums on this subject most G.Ps don’t. 

I am curious to know the actual mechanism for doubting the statin link when so many people have the same symptoms when using them, in my personal case all the terrible symptoms I suffered have completely disappeared since I quit the drugs.

I realise that severe problems affect a low proportion of users but surely doctors must be aware that they do exist, so why the sceptical response to those suffering them? 
Is it entirely based on the drug company’s reports and trials? Or do G.Ps think we are all hypochondriacs?

As an example I was diagnosed with sciatica by my G.P and neuralgia at the A+E both symptoms have completely gone since I stopped taking statins, statins were never mentioned by the doctors although it is obvious to me that they were the cause.

Any thoughts you have would be a help in trying to understand the attitude that many G.Ps seem to have adopted.
Thanks.


----------



## 88735

I'd rather not have another heart attack so i'll carry on taking the statins.
I suffered a reaction to my medication two weeks after my heart attack in which my body started to swell, this was treated and since then I have had no reaction.
It is 7 months since my heart attack in which a blockage was cleared and a stent fitted, I am 47 and will be on medication for the rest of my life, previous to my heart attack i hardly had cause to visit the doctors and hated taking any medication, but since my heart attack i have found the best source of advice has been my consultant who not only saved my life but also prescribed simvastatin.

Chris


----------



## Gonewiththewind

I have to say that I lean toward an earlier post, Its as much the Ailment as the Drug. Yes I have swollen ankles, Touch sensitive Shins. My Legs ache from my ankle to my hips. Lack energy and motivation. Have actually considered giving up and taking my chance with the Illness. Thing is , Im not on Statins, only Metformin. Sugar levels not under control, vary between 7.5 and 11. High blood pressure.
So this is what life is all about.

Don


----------



## 101776

Well as I have now been off th Simvasatin for over a month, its time to comment, I am a lot better, can now get up a flight of stairs, have not had the butterfly tummy, not breathless and the pains etc are less, 

However, its hard to quantify a lot of things as I have Fibromyalgia which is very painful anyway....

My doctor is in agreement with me about Simvastatin and in fact admitted to me that his own father is on a different one, because he (my doctor) does not agree with Simvastatin, he said its the NHS cheap coverall, i.e if we give them all a statin and then they keel over its not our fault we tried!!

Mmmm bet he would not repeat that in the public arena.

All I can tell you from personal experience is I feel far better now I have stopped taking it. And each to their own, not everyone reacts the same and it may save someones life!!


----------



## Invicta

I have just trawled through this very interesting thread.

If it has done nothing else people are now being encouraged to question the professionals who may be being influenced in their choice of medication by drug company hand outs.

I am due to attend the annual Congress of the RCN (Royal College of Nursing) next month. Here there will be an accompanying exhibition of companies exhibiting their products in the anticipation that there will be an increase in their sales as a result of their presence at this annual event.

I have no problem with such companies as those selling insurance, beauty products and the like pushing their wares but I do when it comes to treatments for medical conditions. Over the years since I first started in the nursing profession (many years ago now!) I have seen a decrease in pharmacutical companies sponsoring overseas meetings (holidays in many cases!) for doctors (never for nurses I might add!), free gifts such as beauty products (sometimes nurses received some of these!) and lunches/dinners in attempts to sell their products, but it still continues to a lesser extent as with the exhibition next month.

Unless and until research is taken away from pharmacutical companies, marketing of products in this way will continue. How else can the research required to produce new drugs be funded?

On a slightly more 'off topic' note following on from comments by Mrs W and Maramac; 

"Please remember that the bad effects of menopause can drive women to suicide or murder and make their life totally intolerable".

and Maramac's response:

"Well Mrs W that was a bit of an over reaction wasn't it"? 

For eight years I answered the helpline of the National Association for Premenstrual Syndrome (NAPS). During that time I answered thousands of calls from sufferers, their families and sometimes even their employers regarding the effects of what is considered to be a hormonal imbalance that some associate with the menopause.

PMS or more commonly known as PMT can cause a woman to be two different characters in the space of a month (Ms Jeckel and Ms Hyde). I know of two sufferers at least who killed during a PMS phase, one their child and the other their partner. I received calls from partners of PMS sufferers who had been attacked with kitchen knives. I have given lectures on the subject to all manners of audiences including the Domestic Violence Unit of the Metropolitan Police. Of course one had to be careful that the condition is not being used as an excuse as in the case of the woman who has planned to come to London from Scotland in order to steal designer hats from Selfridges and when caught blamed PMT!


----------



## cris15

Hi Invicta
Thanks for a very informative post, I assume from what you have said that the drug companies are the only body that undertake the trials on these drugs.
Would you know how long these trials typically last for? In my case I had no side effects for about 18 months.

Would it not be a good idea to have a national data base which anyone could report problems they suspect may be related to any drug something like a questionnaire with symptoms and tick boxes?
The results could be given as a percentage of people suffering which side effects on their particular drug including a time scale.
Doctors and patients would then be able to collate and review this information.

I doubt it would cost a vast amount of money to set up via the internet and would provide invaluable information to all on the side effect trends that different drugs are having on people.
I would think probably the N.H.S would be best suited to oversee this.


----------



## Penquin

From my (incomplete) knowledge base as far as I am aware ALL drugs have to be clinically tested in an approved manner before they can be licenced for public use, they then have to be approved by NIHCE (National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence) before they may be prescribed in the NHS. These trials are entirely paid for by the drug companies and do cost a great deal.

Remember the one that went pear shaped a couple of years ago and put several volunteers into ICU?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4808836.stm

so this cost in included in the vast sums of money drug companies pay to develop their new products. They are then licenced for a period of time for exclusive use i.e. no "copies" can be made, before their protection ceases and copies can be made by other drug compnaies. Apparently only about 1 in 100 new drugs ever even gets to the trial stage.

Once available reports of adverse reactions are submitted by all involved to the British Pharmacopia, all pharmacists have access to this as well as Doctors and Nurses, there are report forms (yellow forms) in the back of every edition of BNF which are recorded centrally and action taken if it is recognised that it is needed.

Remember thalidomide was originally licensed for public use and it's devastating effects only discoveerd a few months later with increased birth defects being reported from pregnant users. The same withdrawal has happened with other drugs some of which have been headlined (Vioxx for arthritis, Debendox for morning sickness, aspirin for under 16's), so there is a system to feedback information.

So the system exists but is it used? That is a question that only Doctors, Nurses and Pharmacists can answer about whether they have used it to report any possible side-effects.

The patient information sheets give lots of information but do all of us ever read them through thoroughly? Are we content with the answers we get if we ask questions about possible side-effects? If not then should not we ask for more information?

The internet (including this forum) has no guarantee of accuracy, any views expressed must be carefully considered as to their authenticity, Invicta carries that authenticity - she is a practising nurse, as is MrsW (my wife), I would trust the opinions of such people - but only because of their background knowledge.

Each of us must verify information as it affects us using whatever means we feel able to trust, I have a wife who I trust implicitly, I also have a daughter who is a GP who I seek clarification from.

I was asked to join a medical trial this week, the trial would last five years and would be testing two possible drugs for reducing the risk of CVE's (heart attacks and strokes), - seemed like a good idea. It was being properly organised as a double blind trial - meaning I could have been given both drugs, or either of them or neither of them and only the originating trial Doctors would know what treatment I was having. BUT it would have meant stopping one prescribed medication, I therefore sought advice from my wife (don't think it's a good idea), my daughter (not sure that would be wise) and the trial Doctor's (no, that would put you at increased risk by stopping that medication). But I needed that confirmation of my own thoughts.

Just some thoughts for further consideration, and yes I do take Simvastatin (40mg daily) and have done for 8 years with no side effects that I am aware of - that's the luck of the user I suppose!


----------



## Invicta

Thanks for your prompt response Penguin. Don't think there is anything to add!

As a matter of interest, at the exhibition at last year's RCN Congress that was held in Bournemouth it was possible to have one's cholesterol checked at one of the stands.

This year the exhibition will be in Harrogate between the 11th and 13th May inclusive. I would expect to see the company that produces a cholesterol testing kit to be there again as it was extremely popular last year. However, this will no doubt depend on the level of sales of the product following last year's exhibition.


----------



## CurlyBoy

*statins*

Hi, I was prescribed Statins for the same reason, but boy did I have a reaction on taking the first one, racing heartbeat,sweating, shaking and stiffness with a lot of pain in arms and legs, so much so that my wife had to call paramedics, they advised this was "only" a reaction, and that I should see the doc first thing in the morning. He told me to stop taking them as in his opinion I didn't need them (they were prescribrd by the cholesterol nurse)
curlyboy


----------



## grouch

Hi Curly Boy. Nice to speak to you. When are you off the France? We are going at the end of June backto the Alps.

Regarding Statins. I have been taking them for years. No adverse effects. I have changed from Simvarstatin to Atorvastatin recently. No difference at all in my readings. Doctor wants me to take Statins. I take Statins. However, I am really not sure I am benefitting.


----------



## cris15

Hi Penguin
Thanks for the info, very interesting, I agree internet forums do not give an overall picture simply because if you are not having problems you have no reason to visit that particular forum and therefore only the problems not the advantages are discussed.

However I think that for those of us that are/have suffered side effects (and there are many) it enables us to compare our situation with other statin users, thus pinning down the cause of our problems, this in turn enables us to properly prepare for a meeting with the G.P and ask the right questions

If I hadn’t stumbled upon the stopped our statins web site I would still not know that my problems were statin related, I spoke to my G.P on several occasions about my situation but never were statins mentioned as a possible cause and I still don’t understand why, this attitude from G.Ps seems to be echoed on these forums time and again.

I like my G.P and I know that statins are standard procedure for high cholesterol but I can’t help feel something is wrong when G.Ps are dismissive of patients symptoms, in my own case I was told statins wouldn’t cause this or that, when they obviously were the sole cause of all my problems .

My personal theory is that G.Ps see statins as some sort of miracle cure with minimal side effects, but they needs to understand that some of us suffer severe side effects both physical and mental not mentioned on the patient info sheet or the NHS website.

I suspect that G.Ps are not yet aware of these potentially very dangerous problems especially the mind warping effect, are the drug companies? 

No disrespect was intended to anyone connected with the medical profession posting on this forum and I welcome your comments, all my comments are a generalisation of my own personal experiences and information I have gathered so far.
Thanks


----------



## EdsMH

Wow, so pleased to have found this thread.

I too was prescribed statins as part of an overall set of controls on hypertension which being male I had ignored too long.

My GP is excellent and explained all about the first lot of statins and the potential side effects. To keep the post short I immediately got a degree of muscle stiffness and particularly ankle and knee swelling and stiffness. We tried two other statins so came to the collusion that the effects outweighed the benefits.

So like Pusser I was prescribed ezetorol which for me has no side effects at all and is doing the job nicely.

Ed


----------



## 1happy

*Off topic ooooooooops!*



Invicta said:


> On a slightly more 'off topic' note following on from comments by Mrs W and Maramac;
> 
> "Please remember that the bad effects of menopause can drive women to suicide or murder and make their life totally intolerable".
> 
> and Maramac's response:
> 
> "Well Mrs W that was a bit of an over reaction wasn't it"?
> 
> For eight years I answered the helpline of the National Association for Premenstrual Syndrome (NAPS). During that time I answered thousands of calls from sufferers, their families and sometimes even their employers regarding the effects of what is considered to be a hormonal imbalance that some associate with the menopause.
> 
> PMS or more commonly known as PMT can cause a woman to be two different characters in the space of a month (Ms Jeckel and Ms Hyde). I know of two sufferers at least who killed during a PMS phase, one their child and the other their partner. I received calls from partners of PMS sufferers who had been attacked with kitchen knives. I have given lectures on the subject to all manners of audiences including the Domestic Violence Unit of the Metropolitan Police. Of course one had to be careful that the condition is not being used as an excuse as in the case of the woman who has planned to come to London from Scotland in order to steal designer hats from Selfridges and when caught blamed PMT!


Hi Invicta.
I read your post with great interest and was thrilled someone spoke up about a much under estimated condition.
I was tempted to start another thread on the menopause so as to not go "off topic" but don't know if its been done (have not searched yet) but did want to thank you.
Cheers Catherine


----------



## MrsW

I have read and re-read this thread and still continue to be amazed! Each prescription of a statin should be accompanied by a "data sheet" - that annoying bit of paper that always falls out or jams in the strips of tablets when you open the box. If you read it (as every patient should do, not only when they start a medication but ideally every time they get a new prescription in case the advice has changed) they would see clearly the possible side effects listed. Below is the list published by Dexcel Pharma, just one of many producers of simvastatin;
4. Possible side effects
Like all medicines, Simvastatin Tablets may occasionally cause side effects in some patients. For the most part side effects
have been mild and short-lived.
The following side effects were reported rarely (between 1 in 1000 and 1 in 10,000 people are likely to be affected):
Blood system disorders: anaemia,
Nervous system disorders: headache, dizziness, numbness or loss of sensation in the arms and legs,
Gastrointestinal disorders: stomach upsets (such as sickness, constipation, diarrhoea, flatulence, indigestion and abdominal
pain), pancreatitis,
Hepato-biliary disorders: liver disease (possibly presenting as yellowing of the eyes and/or skin, itchiness of the skin, dark
colored urine, pale colored stools),
Skin and subcutaneous tissue disorders: hair loss, rash, itchiness,
Musculoskeletal, connective tissue and bone disorders: muscle damage (see below),
General disorders: weakness.
Allergic reaction to Simvastatin Tablets. The allergic reaction may include some of the following: swelling of the face, tongue
or throat (in which case you should contact your doctor immediately), joint pains, joint and blood vessel inflammation, unusual
bruising, skin eruptions, swelling, hives, skin sensitivity to the sun, a high temperature, flushing, difficulty in breathing, or
tiredness.
*Contact your doctor immediately if you experience muscle aches and pains, tenderness, weakness, or cramps. *This
is because on rare occasions, muscle damage can be serious. (See section headed "Before you take Simvastatin Tablets").
If any of these happen, or you have any other unusual symptoms or feelings, stop taking the tablets and contact your doctor
immediately.

So, if you had read the leaflet you would know what to expect or look out for and you would be able to go back to the GP with a document on which you had perhaps underlined all you were suffering from. Alternatively you could go back to the pharmacist where the medication had been dispensed and highlight this to them. Either way, a discussion should ensue. Then the side effects could be properly reported. If patients unilaterally take themselves off the medication the prescriber will not be aware and will have no reason to change their prescribing habit.

Patients should share with GPs the responsibility for their health. When you accept a prescription from the GP you should be giving your informed consent to the GP. If you do not understand the possible or probable side-effects of any prescribed drug YOU are as much to blame for not asking as the GP is for not explaining.

Sorry if people think this is forthright, but I am getting concerned by the GP bashing which occurs. GPs promise in their Hypocratic oath to do no harm. With the exception of a few like the evil Dr Shipman they stand by this and prescribe drugs which they feel will benefit the patient overall. They do not do it for meals out or free biros as sometimes is implied.


----------



## Pusser

MrsW said:


> 4. Possible side effects
> Like all medicines, Simvastatin Tablets may occasionally cause side effects in some patients. For the most part side effects
> have been mild and short-lived.
> The following side effects were reported rarely (between 1 in 1000 and 1 in 10,000 people are likely to be affected):
> Blood system disorders: anaemia,
> Nervous system disorders: headache, dizziness, numbness or loss of sensation in the arms and legs,
> Gastrointestinal disorders: stomach upsets (such as sickness, constipation, diarrhoea, flatulence, indigestion and abdominal
> pain), pancreatitis,
> Hepato-biliary disorders: liver disease (possibly presenting as yellowing of the eyes and/or skin, itchiness of the skin, dark
> colored urine, pale colored stools),
> Skin and subcutaneous tissue disorders: hair loss, rash, itchiness,
> Musculoskeletal, connective tissue and bone disorders: muscle damage (see below),
> General disorders: weakness.
> Allergic reaction to Simvastatin Tablets. The allergic reaction may include some of the following: swelling of the face, tongue
> or throat (in which case you should contact your doctor immediately), joint pains, joint and blood vessel inflammation, unusual
> bruising, skin eruptions, swelling, hives, skin sensitivity to the sun, a high temperature, flushing, difficulty in breathing, or
> tiredness.
> *Contact your doctor immediately if you experience muscle aches and pains, tenderness, weakness, or cramps. *This
> is because on rare occasions, muscle damage can be serious. (See section headed "Before you take Simvastatin Tablets").
> If any of these happen, or you have any other unusual symptoms or feelings, stop taking the tablets and contact your doctor
> immediately.
> 
> .


Thank you. That's put my mind at rest.


----------



## ramos

*simvastatins*

I agree with Mrs W, Why are we getting GP bashing here.
You go to the GP you trust their advice, if you are sensible you follow it.
If you dont trust your GP change GP`s. If you dont like what they advise or prescribe dont take it. Sit back and wait to die, Then when you failed to follow the advice that might have saved your life you can come back on the forum and talk about your aches and pains.


----------



## StAubyns

I am absolutely not into GP bashing but different doctors/surgeons tend to have different outlooks on what is prescribed.

Besides statins, my GP put me on a daily low dose asprin.

I recently saw a surgeon about a forthcoming operation on my eyelids. When she saw that I was taking asprin, she said "why are you on asprin, have you had a stroke/heart attack?"

When I answered "no" she said that in that case there was no need to be taking the asprin as it was not beneficial to me.

So, different opinions on a basic drug.

So how can you decide about the more complex drugs that are prescribed?

sorry if I'm a bit off topic with this


----------



## locovan

I back Mrs W also because if you stop taking the medicines you will die. 
Dont you realise you should be dead now but modern medicine has prolonged your life.  
We have often heard of men dieing just as they retire and Ray had a blood preasure reading of 220/120 and was told to go home and rest because he was on the edge of a stroke-- so I dont care how many side effects he has he is alive still 9 years later. :lol:


----------



## ramos

*simvastatins*

Thats my point Differences of opinion, as I said if you don't agree don't follow blindly. If you take your Motor for MOT. Sorry Sir its failed you have a rusty break pipe. You take it to another garage. yes its passed but you need to watch the back tyres getting low.
Difference of opinions. Its down to trust.


----------



## olive

If anyone can prove that statins have definitely saved a life I shall become a convert, but until then I will believe the results of the many studies caried out throughout the world that show very little benefit for men and a negative value for women.

GP's have got themselves into a tricky situation.... if they don't prescribe statins to a heart attack victim and he/she has another heart attack .... the GP will be held to blame ... so they prescribe them.

Statins suppress the production of co-enzyme Q10 a vital chemical for all the cells in the body. A deficency of it causes the muscle problems,... the heart is a muscle ... and research in the US suggests that the number of people with heart failure is increasing. There is also some evidence that statins are associated with memory problems.

If the magic answer to preventing heart attacks is a low cholesterol reading .... how come patients are not told to stop taking them once their levels have reached the target??

If MrsW believes everything her GP tells her she is gullible and not even GP's have a cure for that!


----------



## Penquin

Quote from olive;

If MrsW believes everything her GP tells her she is gullible and not even GP's have a cure for that!

I STRONGLY suggest that you take the time to read through the threads and check your facts. MrsW is a PROFESSIONAL NURSE and is NOT gullible. Whereas your occupation is listed as ????????.

The reasons why people have heart attacks are multiple, many are life-style based including diet, lack of exercie and their other habits such as smoking and alcohol consumption. To simplify things to such an extent that you say "how come patients are not told to stop taking them once their levels have reached the target?" suggests a willingness to totally ignore these other factors. Neither you, nor I have the full background as to the people that have posted here and thus no reasons can be given. 

Hence why so many people who ARE professionals have said "check with your Doctor" and "discuss it with them". 

No-one is compelled to follow the advice they are given, but comments such as yours may lead people to simply stop without discussing. Such actions would be foolhardy and could lay the person that suggested it open to action.

The evidence linking HIGH cholesterol levels to CVE's is well documented and is sufficiently well understood that it is now part of the GCSE science specifications. You are suggesting that many thousands of people have been misled, I wonder why?


----------



## cris15

Hi All.
As mentioned in a previous post drug tests are far from full proof thalidomide was one of many drugs deemed to be safe vioxx was responsible for some 160,000 heart attacks 60,000 fatal, so let’s not run away with the idea that your drugs will keep you alive, they may well kill you.

I don’t hold my G.P responsible for my problems with statins as I said I like my G.P both as a person and a Doctor.
I think the real problem is the G.Ps take advice from the drug companies (who have a vast financial interest) the scientists say the drugs are safe and that appears to be the word of god.

My problem along with many others is the fact that the G.Ps seem to be oblivious to the possibility of side effects not mentioned on the patient info sheet. 

When I think back to how I was it frightens me, one of the theories that seems to fit is that statins block the brains supply of cholesterol and the brain doesn’t function correctly without cholesterol.

I really think when I was at my worst anything could have happened, I was having very weird thoughts and ideas, this is why I said if you are taking statins please be very careful, be aware that you don’t notice that strange things are happening to you. 

If friends or partners say you’re acting strange believe them and go with them to your doctor immediately.
I do understand that many people benefit and have no problems with statins and very good luck to them, my warning is aimed for the others that like me have bad side effects and don’t realise what is happening to them.

Good Luck


----------



## cris15

MrsW

Thought you might find this of interest, a bit more than free biro's

http://talkingstatins.com/page26/page26.html


----------



## duds

i HAVE TO TAKE INHALERS FOR ASTHMA AND HAVE FOUND THAT THESE ALSO SEEM TO CAUSE MUSCLE ACHE IN MY LEGS PARTICULARILY. THEY ALSO SEEM TO PUSH UP BLOOD PRESSURE. HAVE ANYONE ELSE HAS SIMILAR SIDE EFFECTS WITH SALBUTAMOL, VENTOLIN AND SERETIDE ETC.


----------



## olive

Penquin said:


> I STRONGLY suggest that you take the time to read through the threads and check your facts.
> quote]
> 
> I STRONGLY suggest that you and everyone else carefully read the results of the many clinical trials on statins. Although some might benefit there are many many others ie most if not all women who won't.
> 
> I never suggested that people stop taking them ... simply to question WHY they are taking them, and for how long.


----------



## locovan

cris15 said:


> MrsW
> 
> Thought you might find this of interest, a bit more than free biro's
> 
> http://talkingstatins.com/page26/page26.html


A thought strikes reading this.
Do you think then that Doctors are saying we have High Cholestral so as to put us on the Statins ?? then they will get more points.
There are so many people on them--what is high.
Mine is 4 the Doctor sent for me and said loose a stone and he will see if I might need to go on medication.


----------



## MrsW

StAubyns said:


> I am absolutely not into GP bashing but different doctors/surgeons tend to have different outlooks on what is prescribed.
> 
> Besides statins, my GP put me on a daily low dose asprin.
> 
> I recently saw a surgeon about a forthcoming operation on my eyelids. When she saw that I was taking asprin, she said "why are you on asprin, have you had a stroke/heart attack?"
> 
> When I answered "no" she said that in that case there was no need to be taking the asprin as it was not beneficial to me.
> 
> So, different opinions on a basic drug.
> 
> So how can you decide about the more complex drugs that are prescribed?
> 
> sorry if I'm a bit off topic with this


Geoff I think I might be able to explain this for you. Until quite recently it was advised that people took aspirin fairly routinely as the years advanced to prevent strokes and heart attacks. Recently the official advice changed and only those who have had previous strokes or heart attacks are advised to take aspirin to prevent further occurrences. Those who had been prescribed aspirirn and did not fall into this group were advised to go back to their GP and discuss the issue at their next appointment. Perhaps you have not seen your GP since, or perhaps you were unaware of this change and the attendant advice.


----------



## MrsW

olive said:


> If the magic answer to preventing heart attacks is a low cholesterol reading .... how come patients are not told to stop taking them once their levels have reached the target??
> 
> If MrsW believes everything her GP tells her she is gullible and not even GP's have a cure for that!


Let me answer these 2 issues for you Olive.

Firstly, the reason people are not taken off statins once their cholesterol readings are back within acceptable limits is that most, although not all fail to change their eating habits and so it is the statins and not their diet that is preventing the cholesterol levels from rising again. To stop the statins would be tantamount to not having bothered to lower the levels in the first place. Until we reduce the amount of cholesterol by modifying our diet, many of us would remain at risk of stroke or heart attack without the statins.

Secondly, I have *never* stated that I believe (or anyone else should believe blindly) and without questionning what the GP has to say. I suggested that people should discuss their concerns with their GP. This is a view I have have held for many years and which I advocate in my professional capacity most days when at work.

I would therefore be grateful if you would cease from attacking me personally and confine your statements to generalities. I feel your post contravenes the rules of this forum and will not hesitate to report it if it continues. (see rule on posting etiquette)


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## Penquin

Thanks for the link cris15;

http://talkingstatins.com/page26/page26.html

it makes interesting reading BUT as I put on my post yesterday (Saturday) at 12.40pm;

"_The internet (including this forum) has no guarantee of accuracy, any views expressed must be carefully considered as to their authenticity"_

this link has NO accreditation that I could see at all, it is NOT linked to any recognised scientific body (e.g. Royal Society) so as such has to be considered as unreliable. I do not recognise the "facts" it contains - but then I am not a GP or Practice Manager, so would not be aware if such allegations are well-founded or just supposition.

But it does make interesting reading if viewed in the light of that lack of authorship.

Dave


----------



## MrsW

cris15 said:


> MrsW
> 
> Thought you might find this of interest, a bit more than free biro's
> 
> http://talkingstatins.com/page26/page26.html


Cris 15, you might be interested in this disclaimer from the website to which you are referring;

DISCLAIMER:
The site owner is not a qualified medical practitioner and does not offer medical consultations under any circumstances. The Talking Statins web-site does NOT hold itself out as offering any sort of medical advice (to site visitors) nor does Talking statins offer any paramedical services to site visitors.

You, the site visitor, can use the information on this site in any way that you wish. Please be aware that if you should make any use of the information contained within these web pages, then it is entirely at your own risk. Links to other sites are links to third parties and Talking Statins bears no responsibility for the information, or the ethical stance, of other web-sites which are linked to from these pages.

Medical advice may only be given to people by a properly licensed and qualified medical practitioner. Site visitors should NOT act on any of the information they find on this web-site or any of the linked web-sites, without having had a consultation with their own qualified medical practitioner... before they consider making any changes to their treatment routines.

To me that says it all!


----------



## Invicta

Food for thought, the following is taken from the web site of an East Kent Private Doctor: 

Do women need to take statins?

The answer to the above question appears to be probably no as it seems that taking these drugs does not appear to both reduce mortality or affect the incidence of heart disease in women. This stems from a study on 11,000 women treated with statins for 5 years. These were women who had no evidence of cardiac or peripheral vessel disease at the time they were put on statins. This would be in keeping with the the majority of women patients in Generall Practice that are prescribed these drugs.

Before we say categorically that statins have no use in this group we should look at two other studies involving women.

The first is the so called 4S study done in Scandinavia. These were women who had evidence of cardiac disease in association with raised cholesterol levels. Over the study period of 5 years, 4 more women were alive taking statins than the group taking a dummy tablet involving a total of 4500 patients. However to put this into perspective 100 women would need to be treated with a statin for 6 years to prevent one death from heart disease.

Another study the Heart Protection Study on 5000 women with evidence of heart disease ie angina or previous surgery for blocked arteries to the heart, peripheral vessel disease or diabetes did show protection with statins. The patients on statins developed fewer heart attacks and required less further surgery for their blocked arteries than those on dummy tablets but mortality was only reduced marginally. The study showed that if you treated 2500 women for 5 years that it delayed death in only 36 patients. However if you want to put it more simply, in this high risk group 30 years of taking statins would increase your life exspectancy by only 1 month.

The above articles have led people to question whether we should be giving statins to women at all in view of the fact that overrall mortality is not significantly reduced by those taking these drugs. These drugs have side effects, cost the NHS money but also tie up a lot of GP and nursing time monitoring patients especially blood tests to see if chlosterol has been reduced. The argument against their use is that these resources and money could be better spent improving the quality of life of individuals say with arthritis of their hips/ knees by increasing joint replacement surgery or even surgery for cataracts etc. All these would improve the quality of life with thses disabilities.

This begs the question is longevity of life better than quality of life. You decide

And this:

Statins for the over 75's-is it worth it?

Under the new guidelines to GP's all patients over 75 are being given statins to prevent them having heart attacks or strokes, especially if they suffer from dIabetes, have hypertension or suffer from heart disease. The question that needs to be answered is, does this prolong their lives?

Answer is I'm afraid-NO. A study with over 5000 patients were either given a statin or nothing at all to reduce their cholesterol and then followed up for several years. Overrall the statins did prevent some heart attacks over this period but to do this 48 patients needed to be treated to prevent a heart attack. What was worse was that this only applied to men and not women ie. women taking these drugs had no benefit whatsoever.

What is even more depressing is that both groups lived the same amount of time ie. the statins did not increase your life expectancy. Finally even more depressing was the fact that those taking the statins died of cancer more than those not taking the statins. This does not mean that the statins gave you cancer, although this is not ruled out, but that instead of having your heart attack and dying you developed cancer instead and died.

What does this all mean

Statins in over 75's does not prolong life expectancy 
Statins may prevent some heart attacks in men but not in women but at the expense that you then died of cancer
The question then is should we stop wasting vast amounts of money giving statins to over 75's as well as the vast amount of medical time wasted in monitoring and prescribing these drugs?

The answer is yours to make but money like this could be put to better use by improving the quality of life of the elderly by providing better hearing aids, more cataract surgery as well as joint replacements because we know that these do improve a patients life although not prolong it! What is more important?

His web site is www.abbeypractice.co.uk


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## Penquin

Thanks for that link Invicta - a *VERY *interesting site and with a stated author so that authenticity can be demonstrated.

That practice has a very interesting approach to keeping patients informed - it is the first one I have seen like that and is to be commended. It admits that statins *DO* cause side effects, something many people on this topic have found hard to convince their GP.

Perhaps people wishing to discuss possible side effects with their GP should visit the original site and copy out the relevant sections so that they can take it to their GP for discussion before making any radical changes in their medication - something that has been a very strong point in many of the posts on here.

Dave


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## Invicta

If only NHS contracted GP practices were run like the Abbey Practice Dave.

I am so fortunate to have it nearby. Several of my nursing colleagues are benefitting from Dr Stellon's expertise in acupuncture as I am doing.

He opted out of his NHS GP contract in 2005 following the major changes brought about in East Kent through reconfiguration of acute hospital services. He is ably supportive by his wife, a nurse, who is the Practice Manager. Reading the patient questionaire which I contributed to last year tells it all!


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## loughrigg

I became an insulin dependent diabetic in 2003 at the age of 49. Prior to that time, my health had been good with no indication of blood pressure, cardiac or cholesterol problems.

A couple of years ago, during a routine diabetic review at my local hospital, I was told that I needed to take statins. This came as something of a surprise as the result of a cholesterol test shortly before was 3.2.

When I asked why statins were required, I was told "You are a diabetic - all diabetics should be on statins." I tried asking the question several times but received essentially the same answer - it proved impossible to extract a clinical explanation.

I declined the offer of drugs until a satisfactory explanation was provided.

Despite two further reviews and numerous blood tests the subject of statins has not been raised again.

Mike


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## cris15

Mrs W
Please don’t think I am GP bashing or anybody bashing I am not.

As I said in an earlier thread I am merely trying to ascertain why GPs seem dismissive about people reporting unusual statin side effects. 

Yes I read the disclaimer on the site I referred to but that particular link was not about matters of a medical nature, it was about incentives paid by the government to prescribe statins, which I find even more worrying.

Perhaps someone could confirm or deny that the payments mentioned in the link exist.


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## buffallobill

cris15 said:


> Mrs W
> Please don't think I am GP bashing or anybody bashing I am not.
> 
> As I said in an earlier thread I am merely trying to ascertain why GPs seem dismissive about people reporting unusual statin side effects.
> 
> Yes I read the disclaimer on the site I referred to but that particular link was not about matters of a medical nature, it was about incentives paid by the government to prescribe statins, which I find even more worrying.
> 
> Perhaps someone could confirm or deny that the payments mentioned in the link exist.


i have asked my gp about my muscle ache and statin tablets i take, and he dismissed my question of linking muscle ache to statin tablet, he told me it was MEDIA HYPE, and the statins were not the cause of my muscle ache, i am now having to go for x rays on my limbs an back. feel like throwing the statins in the toilet, :? :?


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## StAubyns

MrsW said:


> Geoff I think I might be able to explain this for you. Until quite recently it was advised that people took aspirin fairly routinely as the years advanced to prevent strokes and heart attacks. Recently the official advice changed and only those who have had previous strokes or heart attacks are advised to take aspirin to prevent further occurrences. Those who had been prescribed aspirirn and did not fall into this group were advised to go back to their GP and discuss the issue at their next appointment. Perhaps you have not seen your GP since, or perhaps you were unaware of this change and the attendant advice.


MrsW

thanks for that info, I did not know that.

Our Surgery is struggling for staff and has been for some while. I used to get to see the nurse 3 monthly at the Cardio Vascular clinic but now only get sent for annually.


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## ramos

Hi there
I saw my diabetic nurse today and she put me on tablets as they are new and I said " Do I really need these" and she said "Im at the top of the tree for risk, for a stroke or heart attack so I would be foolish not to take them, but the choice was mine"
I said "The same applies to Statins that I take" and she said "In my condition Statins are highly beneficial" and I said "We have been in a heated discussion on a forum, where lots of doubts have arisen" she said "People who don't need Statins well it wont do them any good but also they wont do any harm either, but if you are one of those at risk factors then she highly recommends them because at the end of the day, you wont know if they have done good or not, because if you don't take them and you have a stroke or heart attack, would you have been better if you had taken them.
If you don't have a heart attack or stroke did you need them any way"
Its catch 22 guys and gals


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## MrsW

Ramos, good on you for asking! Make sure you read the data sheet before you start to take them. If you want any more advice about the meds you've been prescribed, feel free to pm me.


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## ramos

Hi I have been put on Metformin as they are now going to put all type 2 on medication now.
Just another tablet to add to all the others.


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## MrsW

Well that should improve your blood sugars and hopefully you'll feel better for it.


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## ramos

But there are side affects again but thats another Topic--wind and tummy troubles 8O


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## MrsW

Doesn't mean you will necessarily get them. Anyway, all men get shocking wind don't they (or am I just unfortunate about all the men I know? :lol: )


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## loughrigg

I can only speak from personal experience, so perhaps I have been unlucky in my encounters with various branches of the NHS.

In relation to my diabetes and the recommendation that I take statins in particular, the irritation has been the apparent "blunderbuss" approach underlying the diagnosis that statins are good for ME.

I fully accept that there have been numerous studies showing that statins have benefitted various groups of diabetics, but I believe it to be wrong that the results of those studies are distilled to a simplistic statement that all diabetics should take statins - and this has been the only argument presented to me thus far.

My medical condition has become quite complicated. In short, a gall stone got stuck in the wrong place. That led to seven months in hospital (three months in intensive care) major organ failure (heart, lungs, liver and kidneys to varying degrees), a 96% reduction in functionality of my pancreas (resulting in type 1 diabetes), prolonged dialysis, the inability to digest food without artificial enzymes and various other complications. The last time I saw my consultant surgeon, my notes had to be wheeled in on a trolley because the nurse couldn't carry them.

I find it disturbing that a drug (statin) with many indicated side-effects, can be recommended/prescibed by a practice nurse or hospital doctor on what seems to be the sole basis that it is good for me because I am a diabetic. At my last review blood sugar control was rated excellent, blood pressure good and cardiac function normal.

I now take fourteen tablets a day and inject myself four times a day, but my condition is stable. I do most of the things that I want to do including mountain-biking and I'm currently planning a 200 mile cross-country walk.

I'm not about to risk destabilising the current medical balance without fully understanding why that risk is necessary.

Sorry for the rant.

Mike


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## andyangyh

I think there is some concern about what a friend of mine (who is a GP) refers to as "knee-jerk prescribing". In this world Type 2 diabetes = Metformin + statin, any degree of hypertension = statin etc. My GP is willing to discuss the options but I know from experience that many GPs and nurses, short of time and under pressure, don't. Witness the earlier post when someone was told that "everyone with Type 2 diabetes is being put onto metformin". Why? 

As an example - I was diagnosed as having Type 2 diabetes last year. This year I am miraculously "cured". How did this happen? 

Originally I went for my regular blood test (I have well-controlled hypertension) and my glucose levels were slightly raised so I was called back for a test involving drinking a glass of glucose solution and taking bloods before and after to see how quickly my body processed the excess. I could have forecast the result. I spend almost 9 months working my socks off on a campsite and I am fairly fit. This test was after we had finished work for the winter and had been on a cruise. Unsurprisingly I had put on weight and been doing next to no exercise. The Diabetes Nurse phoned me up with the bad news ("I'm afraid that the tests show that you are diabetic" ). I asked how she reached that conclusion and, of course, it was based purely on this one test. I explained that I was "diabetic" because of the set of circumstances at that time but, as I explained to her, this was purely temporary. Didn't matter - according to the tests I was a diabetic (and perhaps I was part of a statistic for treatment of diabetes that figured in the Practice targets). Then I got letters from podiatrists asking me to come in and have my feet looked at. I got leaflets about diet and exercise (lots of stuff I already knew). I had an appointment to see the Diabetic Nurse. The whole machinery of diabetes care swung into action. I phoned and politely cancelled the appointments.

Two weeks ago I went along for my blood tests again. Now that I am working (and not recently returned from two weeks of excess in the Caribbean) my weight has gone down and I am fitter. Surprise, surprise - my glucose levels are back to well within normal parameters. A miracle cure! Haven't been on statins either (because of the muscle pain issue) but my lipids are fine too (high side of normal but still fine).

The goalposts in what is "normal" keep moving all the time. The reason for me going onto statins in the first place was that my diabetes diagnosis had raised my risk and made a statin the recommended "add-in". So I had a drug I didn't really need based on one test. Then I got the side effects. All drugs have side effects. It is, of course, worth taking a drug if the benefits outweigh the risks. Would I take aspirin if I didn't have a history of heart attack or stroke? No - in my case I get gastric discomfort from even low dose apirin and I know what aspirin does to the lining of the stomach. When making my decision I am weighing the proven (if very low) risk of gastric bleed against questionable protection against a heart attack and deciding not to take the aspirin. Likewise my diabetes "cure" takes me out of the group where the benefits of the statin are outweighed by my adverse reaction to the drug.

Everybody has a responsibility for their own health and that means making informed decisions and not going along with knee-jerk prescribing. Listen to your GPs advice, ask intelligent questions and make your informed decision on what you do.


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## cris15

Hi All
Buffallowbill, this is exactly the attitude I am trying to understand, if my memory serves me correctly (which it doesn't always thanks to statins) the muscle problem is mentioned in the patient info sheet that comes with the medication, hardly media hype.

Please feel free to jump all over me but I think I am beginning to understand.
If a practice is being paid £64,000 to prescribe a drug that won't do any harm and may be beneficial then why not.

Sorry for the repost of this link.
http://talkingstatins.com/page26/page26.html

If the prescription was for a glass of milk a day I would agree, but it seems to me that there is now prescribing for borderline cases like locavan with a count of 4 which I thought was an ideal count, or have the goalposts moved again.

The problem as I see it is still the GPs refusal to accept that statins can be extremely dangerous to allegedly a small number of people, although I think it may be a larger number than realised.
So my question to the GPs is how you would feel if your patient was left permanently damaged by this harmless drug, or took their own life or perhaps the life of someone else.

And before you tell me it can't happen, it can, I've been there; thankfully I managed to come through relatively unscathed, although it's not over yet. 
To put some perspective on this, if your cholesterol is high and you take statins with no or little side effects then very good luck to you.

I went through some very dark and dangerous times on statins, I was very lucky I think I quit them just in time.
As I said in a previous post, be aware if strange things start happening get help and don't be fobbed off by your GP, these drugs can be very dangerous for a minority of users.

In my case it's been 6 months since I quit statins I would say I am about 80% recovered, I still rely heavily on my spell checker (something I never used pre-statins) and my mental arithmetic and grammar skills are still way less than they were.

Several statin manufacturers in the U.S are facing litigation for damages, I wonder if the truth will come out now?

Sorry if this has been a long post but I cannot emphasis strongly enough the dangerous effects that statins may have on some people.
Good luck.


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## Raine

i have just had a blood test result which was 6 for cholesterol and need to go back to the doc for a chat, in the meantime, a friends husband said i should go on statins, this was today, and would you believe it , found this post, thank you, it is something i will now look into very carefully,


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## cris15

Hi Raine

You might find this link of interest it is an admit ion by Pfizer that statins benefit only 1 in 100 people.
The really interesting bit is the fact that they consider 1 in 100 as insignificant when applied to side effects.

http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reportsitem.aspx?id=100950


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## Mike48

6 is a highish reading. Ideally it should be below 4. The doctor might suggest dietary change but this rarely has much effect. 

I used to spend a few months of the year in the States and listened frequently to a medical phone in on the radio. These programmes are very popular over there. I gather that statins have been almost automatically issued to those over 50 (presumably those with medical insurance) and I believe this is also more or less the practice here now. I doubt very much whether their use would be so widespread if they were ineffective or troublesome.

I have aches and pains and am on statins but who is to say statins are the problem? Its more likely down to my ageing bones.


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## Gonewiththewind

My original reading was 17.8 (18/2/09) still hovering between 8 and 12 But only been given Metformin 1500 mg per day.
Blood pressure of 155 - 165 over 92 - 102, but doc says not high no need for BP tablets.


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## Mike48

Metformin is a diabetic drug. Stains are anti cholestorol drugs. They are not drugs prescribed solely to reduce blood pressure as far as I know.


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## MrsW

gelathae said:


> Metformin is a diabetic drug. Stains are anti cholestorol drugs. They are not drugs prescribed solely to reduce blood pressure as far as I know.


Absolutely!!


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## autostratus

An update from someone who stopped taking prescribed Simvastatins.

You may remember my post of 05-03-09 when I described the effect when I stopped my statin
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-586010.html#586010

After seeing my GP and having a blood test to find my current cholesterol levels I have been prescribed Ezetrol as an alternative to a statin.

I'm now in my fifth week and up to now have had no adverse side effects.
I'm due back at the surgery soon for a follow up blood test.

Has anyone else been prescribed Ezetrol as an alternative to a statin?


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## Invicta

Gonewiththewind said:


> My original reading was 17.8 (18/2/09) still hovering between 8 and 12 But only been given Metformin 1500 mg per day.
> Blood pressure of 155 - 165 over 92 - 102, but doc says not high no need for BP tablets.


With a B/P as you have quoted, has the doctor suggested that a 24 hour blood pressure check is done on you? Ideally one's B/P should be around 120/80 but for those of us getting on in years one may expect it to be a little higher. I was surprised to see that the DVLA accept a B/P of up to 200/100 for 70s and above to drive vehicles over 3.5 t

Another consideration is what type of machine was used to check the B/P? Digital P/B monitoring machines do tend to produce a higher reading. Give me the old fashioned sphygmomanometer with a stethoscope any day to do the job.


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## roger-the-lodger

Invicta said:


> Give me the old fashioned sphygmomanometer with a stethoscope any day to do the job.


So that's what it's called! What a great word - would have been a good one for "Call My Bluff" if anyone remembers that. 

I have a digital monitor and check 2-3 times a week getting typical readings of 135/75 (I'm 63). It's a bit OT (though the thread has evolved from statins to other medication and health points) but as we are on B/P this is something you really can't afford to mess about with IMO. If it's too high and can't be reduced with diet (weight loss) and exercise you really take a big risk unless you treat it with medication. At 58 I had a mild heart attack 2 weeks after a successful full marathon and found, to my amazement, that I had high B/P and high cholesterol (I had no idea!). The docs pointed out that running 40 miles a week in training meant my B/P must have been very high indeed during the running. 2 sessions of angioplasty (4 stents) and 5 years later, I'm on 40mg pd of the dreaded simvastatin (cholesterol super-low), 75mg pd aspirin (great for the tummy, I don't think), 50mg pd losartan (anti-hypertensive for that B/P) and 40mg pd Nicorandil. The latter is a great anti-anginal that allows me still to do lots of strenuous exercise (though I have given up marathons).

My problems are essentially genetic and I have little choice but to take all this; yes I get muscle aches (and cramps) but perhaps not that much worse than you would get if you do hard exercise anyway, so maybe I'm lucky there.

If you need medication to treat high B/P I recommend discussing sartans with your GP. I had very unwelcome side effects with diuretics and beta-blockers and thumped the desk with my GP - with losartan ALL the side-effects went away and my B/P improved further too. Drugs like sartans, nicorandil and even atorvastatin (as opposed to simvastatin) are expensive relative to cheaper (usually less modern) equivalents and frankly many GPs will try to cut costs by avoiding them. I know people whose lives are hobbled by angina and who haven't even been told about nicorandil by their GP which is absolutely shameful.

Thump that desk!!! :wink:

Roger


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## sirhandel

Hi

I started this thread some 7 weeks ago and have been staggered by the extent of responses with people having problems with statins. Glad to hear that roger-the-lodger is still running altho not marathons! I'm 64 and still running every day and don't intend to give up until I absolutely have to (many years to come hopefully). Like roger-the-lodger I have high B/P (150/90) and high cholesterol (7.2) readings but these are managed to 125/75 and 5.0 resp with 10mg Lisiniprol and 40mg Simvastatin. I am also prescribed 20mg Omeprazole to regulate bile activity and 200mg Allopurinol to control Gout (my last attack was 10 years ago).

My original message was to explain my experience with statins and Q10. 
I reported that I almost gave up running earlier this year due to severe discomfort/aches in my thighs. I can confirm some 8 weeks after starting Co-enzme Q10 that my muscle aches have not revisited me and I have regained my enthusiasm for running and a significant overall increase in energy levels for other activities and jobs that I would have 'given up on before I started' some months ago.

Since then the Times' published an article on April 11th by Dr Mark Porter on the benefits of taking statins with this rider:
“Statins deplete the body of coenzyme Q10 and some doctors believe that Q10 supplements can reduce the liklihood of unwanted side effects such as muscle pain. There are no recommendations on dose but 30-60mg daily would be a sensible minimum.” I take 60mg.

I can't help feeling that the people who have stopped taking statins because of the muscle discomfort are missing the point. The statins are prescribed to (hopefully) help prevent you dying of heart problems. Unfortunately the side effects like muscle aches can be discouraging and possibly dangerous but my point is that you shouldn't give up on the statins when the muscle problem is recognised (unfortunately not by GPs it seems) and self-treatable by a natural product like Q10. It's worth a try and if it doesn't work then see the GP with a view to reviewing your treatment.


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## roger-the-lodger

sirhandel said:


> I can't help feeling that the people who have stopped taking statins because of the muscle discomfort are missing the point. The statins are prescribed to (hopefully) help prevent you dying of heart problems. Unfortunately the side effects like muscle aches can be discouraging and possibly dangerous but my point is that you shouldn't give up on the statins when the muscle problem is recognised (unfortunately not by GPs it seems) and self-treatable by a natural product like Q10. It's worth a try and if it doesn't work then see the GP with a view to reviewing your treatment.


This makes a lot of sense to me! 

Roger


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## autostratus

sirhandel said:


> ............I can't help feeling that the people who have stopped taking statins because of the muscle discomfort are missing the point. The statins are prescribed to (hopefully) help prevent you dying of heart problems. Unfortunately the side effects like muscle aches can be discouraging and possibly dangerous but my point is that you shouldn't give up on the statins when the muscle problem is recognised (unfortunately not by GPs it seems) and self-treatable by a natural product like Q10. It's worth a try and if it doesn't work then see the GP with a view to reviewing your treatment.


I reported on my problems with Simverstatin a few months ago and perhaps an update is in order.

I was originally prescribed Simverstatin and suffered terrible pains particularly in my right thigh which my GP was aware of and eventually got me a course of physio! Not surprisingly no improvement was noted.
As a result of information from a friend I stopped taking the Simverstatin and the muscle pain went.

I visited my GP who expressed no surprise and referred my to the leaflet which accompanied the statin.
She then prescribed Ezetrol tablets. Not a statin but a medecine which does a similar job.
After about six weeks the pains came back and I eventually stopped taking Ezetrol and returned to my GP.

Rather than stop taking anything for cholesterol I asked if I could try Lipitor (atorastatin) and took this for 5 weeks before finding the pain too much and discontinued it. The pain disappeared. Not wanting to feel that I had given up too soon I restarted just before we left for France in August but within a few days the pain was back and after 3 weeks I found it so intolerable that I had no option but to again discontinue the course of treatment.

I will be returning to see my GP shortly to see what she suggests. When I asked her about Q10 on an earlier visit but she professed to know nothing about it.
We'll see what her thoughts are for the future.


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## rolyk

Have a look here for some info on Q10

Five years ago I had to come off Simvastatin because of shoulder pain and restricted movement. Tried Ezetrol for a while which had little impact on my chloresterol level. Then went onto Lipitor which gave me some slight pain to begin with but it wore off. But it did reduce my chloresterol to 3.4 again and am still on it.

There are several other statins which may be worth trying. That's if your doctor is willing to prescribe them as, one of them in particular, is very expensive.

Roly


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## mygalnme

Not read all the posts so don't know if this has been mentioned..my hubby suffered muscle and joint pains on all the "statins" and then the Dr tried him with Cresta and he has coped better with these.....


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## roger-the-lodger

autostratus said:


> I reported on my problems with Simverstatin a few months ago and perhaps an update is in order...


Thanks for reopening this thread and posting how you have got on. I'm really sorry to hear that your treatments haven't so far produced a good outcome. It makes me realise that I'm lucky to have only relatively minor increases in muscle fatigue with exercise.

Given that several treatments have still resulted in muscle pain, do you think there may be a case for a referral by your GP to an appropriate specialist?

The very best of luck in any case,

Roger


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## parkmoy

> Has anyone else been prescribed Ezetrol as an alternative to a statin?


I was on Simvastatin and thought I had prematurely aged such were the aches in my leg muscles. The doc put me on Ezetrol and a blood test has showed my cholesterol to be OK.

The only thing is I now keep getting constipated! Anyone else had this with Ezetrol?


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## DTPCHEMICALS

My Bp has been reduced to 120/80 it had been 150 /90 +
Cholesterol down from 6.9 to 3.9.

i do have muscle pain in th tops of my arms but that has not stopped me doing track days on motorcycle.
Some times get out of peeling spuds. :wink: 

Dave p


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## CliveMott

Answer yes to original question.

On docs advice did some tests first.
Came off Statins for 3 weeks and aches went. "Felt brilliant".

Went over to Clofibrulates (??). Had some blood tests and Chlosterol was going up, also aches were comming back.

So went back to statins but now also prescribed Glucosamine 1500mg which help quite a bit.

Choices choices. I want to live to keep taking the pills!

Mornings 2 pills, one glucosomine and one beta blocker
evenings 3 pills, one statin, one beta blocker and one junior aspirin.

Is this a standard blokes set?

C.


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## DTPCHEMICALS

Yes Clive,
I was told to take aspirin in the morning

Dave p


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## roger-the-lodger

CliveMott said:


> Mornings 2 pills, one glucosomine and one beta blocker...evenings 3 pills, one statin, one beta blocker and one junior aspirin...Is this a standard blokes set?
> C.


It depends! Are the beta blockers for blood pressure control or for more than that - for example do you have any heart rhythm irregularity?

If they are just for BP control you might want to enquire about sartans which are more modern medicine for this purpose than either beta blockers or even ACE inhibitors and generally cause significantly less side effects (not hearsay but well supported by clinical trials and further studies). Other than that everything you mention is pretty common in "blokes of a certain age"! :wink:

I take my aspirin in the morning either with or immediately after breakfast.

Roger


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## greygit

sirhandel
What a brilliant posting!
I take Simvastatin and have had cramps for ages I have been back to my doctor and had no help what’s so ever. After reading this thread I have just made an appointment with another doctor in the practice to discuss the Simvastating.
Thanks again for this post.
Gary


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## parkmoy

> I was on Simvastatin and thought I had prematurely aged such were the aches in my leg muscles. The doc put me on Ezetrol and a blood test has showed my cholesterol to be OK.
> 
> The only thing is I now keep getting constipated! Anyone else had this with Ezetrol?





> I take Simvastatin and have had *craps* for ages


Now I know what the problem is :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## greygit

parkmoy said:


> I was on Simvastatin and thought I had prematurely aged such were the aches in my leg muscles. The doc put me on Ezetrol and a blood test has showed my cholesterol to be OK.
> 
> The only thing is I now keep getting constipated! Anyone else had this with Ezetrol?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I take Simvastatin and have had *craps* for ages
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now I know what the problem is :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

I noticed it as soon as I logged on and soon edited it!
Gary
:lol:


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## iandsm

*Statins*

I had terrible effects with Simvastatin so tried other statins and found they all gave unwanted side effects including muscle pain nausea and dizzy spells. i read about other types of treatment and spoke to my doc about this. We agreed I should try a non statin "Suralip" which is niacin based (There have been studies that show niacin as a vitamin if effective). I also read about the benefits of tomato lycopene which is found in certain types of toms. You can buy lycopene at £35 for months supply which was recently advertised as a breakthrough. Much better to buy an alternative product from boots called lye-co-mato.

Just had a blood test and the results after just six weeks were astonishing. Good chloresterol is high and bad chloresterol low. Overall around 5.8 which is fine because of the good to bad ratio. The good far outstripping the bad. Doc says these results are as good or better than I could get on statins and the tomato lycopene is, in effect, changing my diet to a mediteranian one and we all know that's a benefit. I don;t have to see the doc for another 12 months as he is so pleased. I am too, particularly since my chloresterol problem is familial inherited.

I have had NO side effects whatsoever so if anyone is having trouble with statins I would recommend a chat with your GP about this. Good luck


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## autostratus

*Re: Statins*



iandsm said:


> I had terrible effects with Simvastatin so tried other statins and found they all gave unwanted side effects including muscle pain nausea and dizzy spells. i read about other types of treatment and spoke to my doc about this. We agreed I should try a non statin "Suralip" which is niacin based (There have been studies that show niacin as a vitamin if effective). I also read about the benefits of tomato lycopene which is found in certain types of toms. You can buy lycopene at £35 for months supply which was recently advertised as a breakthrough. Much better to buy an alternative product from boots called lye-co-mato.
> 
> Just had a blood test and the results after just six weeks were astonishing. Good chloresterol is high and bad chloresterol low. Overall around 5.8 which is fine because of the good to bad ratio. The good far outstripping the bad. Doc says these results are as good or better than I could get on statins and the tomato lycopene is, in effect, changing my diet to a mediteranian one and we all know that's a benefit. I don;t have to see the doc for another 12 months as he is so pleased. I am too, particularly since my chloresterol problem is familial inherited.
> 
> I have had NO side effects whatsoever so if anyone is having trouble with statins I would recommend a chat with your GP about this. Good luck


Thank you for this extremely useful information.

I have decided to give Lyc-o-mato a try and have spent quite a while checking on-line prices.
Boots are currently doing a 3 for 2 on supplements and 3 x 30 capsules are selling at £21.98 ie 3 months supply with no carriage charge if picked up at a Boots store.

I am due a blood test so will delay starting this course of supplements until after the blood is taken and will see what the effects are on the subsequent test.

I will report back on the results in a few months time.


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## 101776

*or it could be........*

i posted on the first page of this topic, to say I had stopped taking statins and that my pains appeared to have gone...

How wrong I was....I have since been diagnosed with Fibromyalgia, no I had not heard of it either....you can look it up on the internet.
www.fibroaction.org
I can hardly stand up some days, am incapable of opening a new bottle of milk without using one of those grip things, and have every other problem associated with it.....

Now for the best bit, I was putting all my aches and pains down to the statins and or/ diabetes.....however, when I went to the Rheumatologist, she did the pressure point test on me, and I nearly shot through the ceiling when she touched my neck and elbows...I have what she described as 'classic' Fibromyalgia......

Ho well, just get on with life, see what it throws at you next and REMEMBER...its not a rehersal!!


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## 101776

TV Program about Tonight 8:00PM ITV


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## autostratus

bouncer said:


> TV Program about Tonight 8:00PM ITV


Heart of the Matter: Tonight.

Seven million people in the UK take cholesterol-lowering statins. Fiona Foster meets former Blue Peter presenter Peter Duncan who wants to lower his cholesterol by diet and exercise, and asks whether statin side-effects should be more widely recognised.


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## 88735

I have just been for my Yearly blood test, had a call from the surgery to say the results had come back and i need to see my doctor.
The results has shown high bilirubin, he said i would need to have another blood test in 6 to 8 weeks and if that showed no change i would need to do test and maybe look at changing my medication.
I take statin/aspirin/beta blockers/ coozar comp for my blood pressure along with pain killer for arthritis.
He didn't seemed concerned and he didn't say what medication he would be looking at.
I came of clopidogrel a month ago and i am wondering if this would have any affect on my blood test.


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## 129575

*Muscle aches and Statins*

Hello sirhandel,
I found this forum doing a search on muscle pains and statins, like you I have always been active, I play league badminton and have done for over 30 years, I am now 59 and on the verge of giving up because my muscle pains are so bad. I was on Simvastatin for about 5 months and initially missed the part about avoiding grapefruit so continued with this as part of my breakfast for the first 2 months then a different pharmacy actually put a sticker on my prescription. My GP has said since that it is like taking a double dose of the statins. In September I had to stop playing as I could barely walk due to the thigh muscle pains and hip pains. My GP took me off the statins as my cholesterol had gone down from 8.5 to 5.5 but I have to have a test again in January. My pains improved within 2 weeks but I have been left with a lingering stiffness for which I am having physio and acupuncture, and am struggling to play badminton at a level that satisfies me.
I have investigated Q10 and that is very interesting and if I have to go back on the statins I will discuss taking it with my GP, and I can buy it locally at Zipvit. 
I also came across lye-co-mato based on tomatoes, like lycopene, which is being used as a natural alternative to statins with good results. Its made by Boots and is about £11 for 1 month, so I am going to start this tomorrow and hope it keeps my cholesterol low enough not to have to go back to the statins in January.
Thank you so much for your initial post, I have learned a lot from all the replies and don't feel quite so past it after all, I live in hope of regaining my fitness level. I will keep you posted as to the results of the lye-co-mato.

Sue.


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## LazyRover

A recent medical diagnosis has led me to do quite a lot of research this last couple of weeks.

I've been reading up on 

 Blood Pressure
 Blood Sugar
 Cholesterol
 Statins
 Fats 
 Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics.
 The meaning of Relative and Absolute risk
..etc

This SITE has some interesting reading.

I'll not be taking Statins should they be offered.


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## ardgour

Something I didn't realise until a couple of weeks ago is the link between statins and memory loss. It was even found in the clinical trials of the most popular statin but somehow this information got 'lost'. 
I have been helping an old lady down the road who is very scared because her memory seems to be fading but something about it didn't add up (I have worked with a lot of people with dementia type illness but this was different). Just on a hunch I checked what tablets she was on then did some digging. Sure enough she was on the statin most linked to memory loss and her memory problems seem to date from a few weeks after she started taking it. The real crime is that she had not been told what the tablet is, her overall risk if she didn't take it or any side effects - so much for informed consent. I gave her copies of the reports on the clinical trials and possible side effects to discuss with her family - they decided between them she should stop the tablets but we don't know if her memory will fully recover.

Over most of my career I was firmly in favour of every new medical idea that came out (well that is what we were taught to do, we were improving peoples lives) then about 10 years ago I had my eyes opened about a couple of 'medical myths' and since then I have looked more carefully at the evidence for and against various recommended treatments - it is scary.


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## LazyRover

ardgour said:


> ... about 10 years ago I had my eyes opened about a couple of 'medical myths'........- it is scary.


After all the reading I've been doing, I'd say that "scary" is quite a mild way of putting it. 

It would appear that, over the last decade, it has been slowly coming out that the diet-heart regime as espoused by Ancel Keys (High Carb/Low Fat) is completely wrong and, guess what, Dr Atkins was correct (but not necessarily for all the right reasons ).

The question is though, how long will it be before the medical fraternity make the U-turn and advise us to switch regimen?.

Take those carbs away. Pass the butter and lard please. I need more saturated fat in my diet 

Kill the heretic. Kill the heretic..:rightfighter5:


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## jimmyd0g

Sorry that I haven't read all the posts on this thread, so if this question has been asked before, apologies.

From reading the some of the posts on the thread, it would seem that eating grapefruit or drinking grapefruit juice whilst taking Simvastatin can greatly increase the risk of extreme muscle ache. Simplification maybe, but basically correct?
The question therefore is this:-

Could 'natural' apple-juice (made from apple concentrate) produce the same effect as grapefruit juice? I have been on Simvastatin for almost three years & daily get pain in my upper left bicep along with occasional unexpected pain in my thighs. Could the two be linked, or is it just coincidence?
Thanks for any views.


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## teemyob

*L-Arginine Supplement?*

L-Arginine Supplement?

Is this connected with statins?


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## ColinC

*Alternatives to taking statins*

I came across this thread at the end of December last year when I had just been told by my GP that my blood pressure was up and also that my cholesterol was 6.9. I started taking Ramipril for the BP but declined the simvastatin as I was aware of my brother having problems with the side effects. After reading this thread and doing some other reading I told the GP I would try and control the cholesterol 'naturally' ie diet etc initially.

I had noted the post by iandsm in October (page 15) who reported favourable results taking Lycopene (a tomato extract). I have been taking a Lycopene capsule (15mg) daily since mid-January (plus a large daily glass of tomato juice for good measure). Apart from that there didn't seem to be much else I could do diet-wise. Weight is not a problem and I get a lot of exercise every day.

The result so far is that in early May my cholesterol had come down to 6. I will get it checked again at the end of the summer and report back.

I note that autostratus was also trying out Lycopene and was going to report back on his experience. Anything usefull to report?

Colin


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## CliveMott

Some interesting Posts.
Thanks for the confirmation Dave.

Bete Blockers - I was suffering from regular headaches and starting to eat Nurophen like smarties so went and saw the doc. On my 3rd visit, well after the "tick all the boxes" blood test that my doc said was OK I saw a locum. She suggested that as my blood pressure was towards the high side of NORMAL although within normal limits that I try these Propanalol tablets. She suggested I start with 3 a day, if that works cut it down to 2. If that works cut it down to 1. If the headaches come back go back to 2. Well, thats exactly what I did and exactly what happened.
Blood test this week came back OK. Cholesterol was 4.3 which is PDG. Mind you fasting for 14 hours beforehand is a bit of a bugger. All other tests show all organs are working fine. When I was first diagnosed with a high cholesterol level over 20 years back it was in double figures. But the wife nags me potty and keeps me on a constant diet. So why am I so big?

Aches and pains are manageable but I have also been diagnosed with Post Polio Syndrome by some specialist at the Queens medical centre in Notingham. It just means that those muscles that work after Polio have been working double time for over 60 years so creak a bit. So I can never be sure how much is attributed to the Lipitor pill I take every day (just the one).
Then there are the knee, hip and elbow joints - but lets not go there yet!.

I enjoy my camper and I enjoy my motorbike and intend to enjoy them for many more years to come.

Its not time yet to sit back and watch the world go by, its still time to make a contribution to mankind - whether it wants it or not!

C.


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## autostratus

*Re: Statins*



autostratus said:


> iandsm said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had terrible effects with Simvastatin so tried other statins and found they all gave unwanted side effects including muscle pain nausea and dizzy spells. i read about other types of treatment and spoke to my doc about this. We agreed I should try a non statin "Suralip" which is niacin based (There have been studies that show niacin as a vitamin if effective). I also read about the benefits of tomato lycopene which is found in certain types of toms. You can buy lycopene at £35 for months supply which was recently advertised as a breakthrough. Much better to buy an alternative product from boots called lye-co-mato.
> 
> Just had a blood test and the results after just six weeks were astonishing. Good chloresterol is high and bad chloresterol low. Overall around 5.8 which is fine because of the good to bad ratio. The good far outstripping the bad. Doc says these results are as good or better than I could get on statins and the tomato lycopene is, in effect, changing my diet to a mediteranian one and we all know that's a benefit. I don;t have to see the doc for another 12 months as he is so pleased. I am too, particularly since my chloresterol problem is familial inherited.
> 
> I have had NO side effects whatsoever so if anyone is having trouble with statins I would recommend a chat with your GP about this. Good luck
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for this extremely useful information.
> 
> I have decided to give Lyc-o-mato a try and have spent quite a while checking on-line prices.
> Boots are currently doing a 3 for 2 on supplements and 3 x 30 capsules are selling at £21.98 ie 3 months supply with no carriage charge if picked up at a Boots store.
> 
> I am due a blood test so will delay starting this course of supplements until after the blood is taken and will see what the effects are on the subsequent test.
> 
> I will report back on the results in a few months time.
Click to expand...

Sorry to be so long before reporting back but here's a progress report.
Well a few months have gone by and I'm still on the *Lyc-o-mato* from Boots.

Today I've had blood taken for my third set of tests since stopping the statins and starting the *Lyc-o-mato* and will get the results in about a week.

My GP is pleased and surprised with results so far. Without changing my diet my cholesrol level is up only slightly and the good cholestrol is a high proportion of the whole.
This test will be a particularly good indicator as we've just come back from France and I'm crazy about some of the soft cheeses. 

By the way.
Boots are still doing the 3 for the price of 2 and if you buy 6 months supply it comes to 'over £40' which gives you free delivery.
I've just had another 6 months supply delivered and after spending a lot of time searching I can say they are the cheapest I could find at under 25p per capsule.


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## autostratus

Another update.
I'm still on the *Lyc-o-mato* from Boots and my GP is very happy with my cholesterol levels. I have a blood test 2/3x times per year.
I've made one change to my diet since I last reported. For the last 5 months I've had porridge for breakfast every other day and all-bran on the alternate days.

Before breakfast I have a glass of orange juice and a cod liver oil capsule.
With breakfast I have my Lyc-o-mato capsule and during the winter a vitamin D3 tablet as compensation for not getting any sun to the skin needed to maintain bone density.

Just had my 79th birthday and my GP is happy with my general health apart from the loss of mobility as a result of the ****** statins which I stopped 4 years ago.


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## DTPCHEMICALS

Why not just eat tomato`s and drink tomato juice.
I do and they count towards my 5 a day.
Cholesterol 3.2 BP120/76
But I still take simvastatin eat healthly and still to large around the waist.
Dave p


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## Scattycat

I think taking a drug like Statin has to be a matter of personal choice and medical condition.

My belief is that the powers that be seem to hail the drug as a cure all.

If you have an adverse heart condition and are recommended Statins then I wouldn't suggest not taking them. 

When it was suggested, nay, insisted that I take them because of my cholesterol levels and high blood pressure I did a bit of research. 

If I understand correctly what I've read the "ideal" level of cholesterol is a bit of an arbitrary calculation.

Your body needs cholesterol both good and so called bad and your body knows what it needs and some bodies need more than others so if you try and lower these levels your body will just make more to compensate

I had a cholesterol test that was very high but I refused to take statins because I had heard many folks had adverse and sometimes irreversible side effects from taking them.

After a heated discussion with my doctor it was agreed I should test my blood pressure at home because at the surgery the readings were almost off the scale.

After a week of checking my blood pressure and pulse rate at home before getting out of bed in the morning the average readings being around 113/64 and a pulse rate of 49 beats pm it was agreed that my cholesterol level was not a major problem and taking Statins would be a waste of time.

Now, whenever my doctor sends me off to see another specialist for any other medical checks I need he always pre-fixes the report with, "on recent tests blood pressure is normal. Patient has white coat syndrome" :lol:


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## buzz7639

*simvastatin*

Hi 
I had been on these for years and had suffered from foot and ankle pains for a long while.

After reading a news article about joint pains related to statins I went to the GP who said it was impossible that these could cause the problem, I stopped taking them for two months guess what no pains after about two weeks, changed the tablet to provostatin ten months ago still no leg or muscle pains.

Hope this helps


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## Scattycat

*Following on from the posting by buzz7639 . . . . . .*

. . . . . Folks might be interested in the article sent to me this morning

Statins And Exercise Combined 'Decompose' Your Muscles 

Dear Reader, 
If your doctor is someone you can trust then he or she will strongly advise you not to do any exercise once you start taking a cholesterol-lowering statin drug... Then again, if your doctor really is someone you can trust, you wouldn't have been given a statin drug in the first place. 
Oh the irony... 
I know it makes no sense. Especially if you are worried about your heart health and you know you need to stay fit and active. But if you are taking statins the best thing you can do to prevent permanent damage to your muscles is to NOT exercise. 
That's no going to the gym, no sit-ups, push-ups, no cardiovascular exercise or swimming... not even a brisk walk. 
In short - don't exercise. 
That's because if you take the world's most popular drug AND exercise, you could end up side-lined with debilitating weakness for the rest of your life. 
For years now, we've known that statin drugs can cause muscle pain and fatigue. These are actually symptoms of your muscle tissue decomposing. 
Now, that's horrific enough to make anyone avoid this drug. But it gets worse. Because there's one factor that dramatically increases the risk of muscle damage… Exercise. 
In a new trial, researchers confirm this exercise danger. 
Patients who were overweight began regular exercise and significantly improved their aerobic fitness in three months. Another group followed the same regimen. But they took a statin drug. Their aerobic fitness barely improved at all. 
Amazingly - after weeks of supervised exercise - aerobic capacity actually DROPPED in some of the statin users. 
Results on the cellular level were even worse. Health of muscle cells improved significantly in the exercise/no-statins group. But muscle cell health took a dangerous nosedive in the statins group. 
The irony is appalling! Exercise alone reduces cholesterol and improves heart health. And statins don't effectively lower cholesterol unless you also exercise. 
But combine the two and you'll be in grave danger.


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## GEMMY

This wasn't one of those " send this article to ten of your friends or the devil will attack you and your family while you are asleep" 

WAS IT :?: 

tony


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## Scattycat

GEMMY said:


> This wasn't one of those " send this article to ten of your friends or the devil will attack you and your family while you are asleep"
> 
> WAS IT :?:
> 
> tony


NO!! it was from a website called Daily Health Alert whose mailing list I'm on.


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## aldra

I am also wondering why take an expensive tablet rather than the real thing

Cooked tomatoes contain high levels of lyprocine

So just eat tinned tomatoes

Fresh do not contain as much

I love tinned tomatoes and eat them heated as I would soup with a sprinkling of salt and pepper

Grilled fresh tomatoes would also fit the bill

When I fast, eat two tins daily

cal per FULL tin 90

Aldra


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## aldra

Ps

Check out watermelon now in season

Also high in lyprocine in its natural state, unheated

Aldra


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## 747

Just thought I would resurrect this thread with something that might help sufferers.

I came off these Simvastatin and felt much better, the aches and pains subsided pretty quick. We walk the dogs a few miles each morning and I was suffering a bit.

My Doctor will not give me an alternative so I will have to go back on them I suppose. As it happens, I got more rubbish from Woods Health Supplements and browsed it. They have tablets which allegedly helps combat the 'unwanted side effects' of statins. They are called Co-Enzyme Q10. They also allegedly help with 'Heart health', Memory loss and Diabetes.

The blurb says (and I quote) If you are taking statins to control your Cholesterol, you might not know that they can block your natural production of Co-Enzyme Q10, leaving you lacking energy (that bit could be true in my case  ). It is also a powerful anti-oxidant, so it helps prevent damage to your arteries - that's why many people are advised to take additional Co-Enzyme Q10 if they suffer with high cholesterol.

It might be all smoke and mirrors or mumbo jumbo but I have ordered a small amount to see if it works when I am back on Simvastatin.

Anyone tried this remedy?


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## GEMMY

I had been on Atorvastin for years, new quack (stand in) said I must go on Simvastin..Atorvastin too expensive..Simvastin just as good :? ..
2months of muscle ache.. my doc was back... told of my concerns.....immediatly back on Atorvastin.....ache free now for years. :wink: 

tony


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## 747

Tony, my Doctor, who I have had for years, has gone a bit odd in the head with old age. To get new tablets, I need a new Doctor. :roll:


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## mr2

GEMMY said:


> I had been on Atorvastin for years, new quack (stand in) said I must go on Simvastin..Atorvastin too expensive..Simvastin just as good :? ..
> 2months of muscle ache.. my doc was back... told of my concerns.....immediatly back on Atorvastin.....ache free now for years. :wink:
> 
> tony


Had exactly the same experience. Had been taking atorvastatin since heart attack in 2004. After some time doctor suggested simvastatin which i was told was cheaper. Result was increase in cholesterol levels so reverted to original and have taken since with controlled level. However both have given me occasional low muscle pain but acceptable if it controls level.

Barry


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## JohnWebb

I have not read the whole thread so my comments might be repeating others. 
I was put on the simva statins and got muscle problems. I have worked my through the more expensive ones with similar problems. I have now given them up and am taking cholesterol reducing yoghurts, as is my GP! I seem to be recovering. In addition, my neighbour had similar problems and found the following reference.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/22/can-statins-curb-the-benefits-of-exercise/?_r=0


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## Easyriders

Anyone getting muscle aches or other side effects on statins should report to their GP, and if necessary get a second opinion. You should also take along the sheet recording side effects provided with the statin you are taking.

Statins help some people, but can be deadly for others. I posted on this subject some time ago:

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-133997-days0-orderasc-20.html

It might be worth reading this if you are getting denial from your GP, as some just seem to be brainwashed. Luckily, there are many good GPs out there, if you are not satisfied, change!


----------

