# Gas Attacks - First hand experience?



## apothecary

On the Practical Motorhome website - www.practicalmotorhome.co.uk/chatforum/index.asp under the General Topic heading is a report from Natasha giving her experiences of a gas attack. I've replied to that message in a rather sceptical way. I'm not doubting that she was robbed and sympathise with her, but I'm unconvinced that gas was used. If anyone wants to read the message and pass comment on either the original or any replies, I'd be grateful to hear from them. I don't think I'm being harsh, but let me know what you think.

Regards

Dave the apothecary


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## klubnomad

I am surprised her fridge didnt blow up. The supposedly narcotic gas they use is highly volatile

Dave

656


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## parigby

Hi Dave, 

I think l see what you mean in relation to the " they were walking round the van " bit. I just think she is using sloppy descriptive English. 

I read her concern to be that whilst comatose they were in the van, and could have done whatever they wished to her person. 

Just another slant, although could be wrong of course. 


regards ...... philip


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## wendick

Dave

I have never spoken to or met anyone that has been unfortunate enough to have had this experience, in my view its all an urban myth! Im off back into France/Spain next week and have no worries about the matter i get more worried eating some of the tesco ready meals than i do motorhoming....................

Regards wedick


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## apothecary

[/quote] I read her concern to be that whilst comatose they were in the van, and could have done whatever they wished to her person.

Just another slant, although could be wrong of course.

regards ...... philip[/quote]

Done to her person? Must confess I hadn't thought of that angle. Might explain why there have been no attacks on lorry drivers!
Dave


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## apothecary

656 said:


> I am surprised her fridge didnt blow up. The supposedly narcotic gas they use is highly volatile
> 
> Dave
> 
> 656


Dave, you're dead right (pun intended!). Ether vapour is explosively flammable. Another point people fail to realise is that the vapour is heavier than air. Introduce it into a motorhome and it won't rise and fill the van, it'll sink and pour out of the lowest available oriface.

Dave


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## Scotjimland

All the arguments I have read for and against gassing attacks assumed the van was filled with gas via a vent, which would at best, kill the people or cause an explosion.. but I think there is another possible explanation.. 
Suppose the intruder gained entry via a window, a child perhaps, who crept up on the sleeping occupants and sprayed a short burst of gas above their heads, this wouldn't cause an explosion, kill the people or endanger the thief but would render the sleepers unconscious.. 
IMO There are too many reported cases to say they don't happen, can't happen, simply because there have been no deaths or explosions.. 
Until proved otherwise I will err on the side of caution and assume it's possible.


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## Don_Madge

I read her concern to be that whilst comatose they were in the van, and could have done whatever they wished to her person.

Just another slant, although could be wrong of course.

regards ...... philip[/quote]
. Might explain why there have been no attacks on lorry drivers!
Dave[/quote]

Dave,

Attacks on lorry drivers do happen they are not immune. The attacks are well aired on the euro truck drivers forums and like the motorhome forums there have been discussions at length about gas attacks.

I have never heard of anybody who claims to have been gassed going to a hospital or doctor for a blood test to prove the that they had been gassed.

Don

Don


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## apothecary

ScotJimland said:


> All the arguments I have read for and against gassing attacks assumed the van was filled with gas via a vent, which would at best, kill the people or cause an explosion.. but I think there is another possible explanation..
> Suppose the intruder gained entry via a window, a child perhaps, who crept up on the sleeping occupants and sprayed a short burst of gas above their heads, this wouldn't cause an explosion, kill the people or endanger the thief but would render the sleepers unconscious..
> IMO There are too many reported cases to say they don't happen, can't happen, simply because there have been no deaths or explosions..
> Until proved otherwise I will err on the side of caution and assume it's possible.


Interresting thought Jim, thanks. I do travel frequently to France and yes, I do have a narcotic gas detector alarm in my van, but I'm still a bit sceptical. Regarding the child angle, this kid has a brilliant future ahead of him as a consultant anaethetist. So far he hasn't lost a single patient. A far superior record, I would have thought to many experienced anaethetists.
He'll make a fortune working legitimately in hospitals, he won't need to resort to robbery.

Regards

dave


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## Scotjimland

Hi Dave 
Down though the ages kids have been used in burglaries and still are and it's certainly not difficult to open a van window, in fact, many folks leave them slightly open, making it childs play to gain entry, I don't believe the gas angle is so far fetched just because there hasn't been a body count.


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## Fatalhud

I suffered a gas attack last thursday

then i realised it was self inflicted

Duff curry


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## 94639

Wise words Jim, we should all remain vigilant when on our travels.
As Don has pointed out, as yet nobody has gone to hospital for a blood test to prove that they had been gassed, I would have thought that the insurance companies would have wanted some sort of evidence before paying out. We all know that robberies do happen, but in the case of gas attacks the only common factor appears to be that items costing thousands of pounds, such as jewelery and Rolex watches, are stolen. Nobody has reported that they were gassed but the Bu**??s didn't get anything of value.


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## spooky

brisey said:


> Wise words Jim, we should all remain vigilant when on our travels.
> As Don has pointed out, as yet nobody has gone to hospital for a blood test to prove that they had been gassed, I would have thought that the insurance companies would have wanted some sort of evidence before paying out. We all know that robberies do happen, but in the case of gas attacks the only common factor appears to be that items costing thousands of pounds, such as jewelery and Rolex watches, are stolen. Nobody has reported that they were gassed but the Bu**??s didn't get anything of value.


Let's hope the insurnce companies are not reading this one  
malc


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## spooky

Let's hope the insurnce companies are not reading this one  
malc[/quote]

Along with my spelling....


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## sallytrafic

wedick said:


> Dave
> 
> ......... i get more worried eating some of the tesco ready meals than i do motorhoming....................
> 
> Regards wedick


you eat Tesco ready meals .... such bravery or is it bravado :grin:

Frank


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## 98383

A FEW YEARS AGO WELL MANY ACTUALLY ! 

I was out with a few mates on a weekend away , halfway through the 
night some off the lads went back to the hotel early . 
We returned to the hotel and a friend who was ex RAF , proceeded to shave off the left eyebrow off each of the five guys who had gone back early ! 
I was amazed how he manhandled them to the side of the beds before he did it. With five other guys laughing and sniggering whilst it was done. 
Not one of the victims woke up from their slumber , admittedly it was a long day and plenty of beer was drunk , however nobody woke up !!! No gas used there ! 

So if you are tired and had a few beers anybody could walk in and you wouldn't know . 

When I was in Portugal this year a couple I spoke to had had their side window seal removed with a stanley knife ? and the glass quarterlight removed no noise they didn't wake up !! Luckily they had chained the doors across the cab together and padlocked the chain in the middle. 

Three young surfers 20's parked next to them had their van broken into the same night, their bags taken out and passports money etc stolen , if these thieves can pickpocket you when you re AWAKE , I AM SURE YOU ARE AN EASY TARGET WHEN YOU ARE ASLEEP. 

SLEEP TIGHT


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## peedee

Be interesting to see what response you get Dave. I am of the same opinion as Scotjimland, I think there are far too many reports for there not to be elements of truth in these attacks. As Don says there are also reports of truckers being similarly attacked although there must be a great deal of difference in the types of theft, it requiring some considerable organisation to dispose of lorry loads of stuff. I cannot imagine a thief who breaks into a motorhome for petty gain having the know how to fence lorry loads of stuff or those that organise lorry thefts having the slightest bit of interest in a motorhome! I believe in most attacks on lorries, the drivers personal possessions have been the target? 

I don't suppose the insurance companies are the slightest bit interested in the way the theft was accomplished either. They would only want proof of loss in the form of a police report? 

peedee


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## 98483

spent 3 months touring this summer. heard quite a few stories of people getting turned over, locks punched out (coachbuilts), front windows removed from A classes. heard about one couple who parked under a bridge, and some nice folk broke in, in the night, and ransacked the whole van whilst they were asleep.
nobody was gassed though!
italy is turning into a place of horrors apparently. 
but maybe i'm a teensy bit biased there.


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## Grizzly

No-one's mentioned alarms going off and waking the whole aire as well as the occupants.

Doesn't anyone set their internal alarms when they sleep on an aire or car park ? I'm pretty sure I'd have to be more deeply asleep than normal even on holiday to miss ours going off if anyone broke a window or opened the doors ! Certainly I'd hope others on site heard them and at least came out to see why they were going off !

G


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## 98452

I get really annoyed when people doubt it cant happen.

I got done on the Autopista 7 on my way down to southern Spain in May 2004.

Thought it couldn't happen to me.

I am 6ft 5in tall 19 stone and I have a 14 stone great Dane but we were all knocked out.

Funnily enough quite a few other units around me were done as well.

It does happen.


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## DABurleigh

John,

We're all ears to hear as detailed an account as you are prepared to give!

Thanks,

Dave


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## desertsong

Hello folks,

I too have never met anyone who with Asian Bird Flu, Rabbit Flu, bubonic plague or Ebola. Now it seems there are people unfortunate enough to have had these things. I have never met anyone either who has been gassed in a motorhome nor have I ever seen any proof apart from hearsay of people more concerned about their belongings than their personal safety.

Now if I was an insurance valuer I would be very skeptical as to what really happened and how much they are claiming. It is not unknown for people to take out holiday insurance and claim against it when they come back to recoup the cost of their holiday.

Now as to the gas itself, as an ex-operating theatre technician many years ago, I was present at hundreds of operations and assisted the anaesthetist in getting the patient under. Even when they were expecting to go to sleep very quickly and in ideal operating theatre conditions with an amenable patient, it still took time for the patient to go to sleep.

How many of you have ever had an anaesthetic? I've had many myself and know how long it takes with me being willing. Now if I was unwilling, it would be very difficult if not impossible, but I am open to being wrong. So for those of you who have had an anaesthetic, work it out for yourself. Think it over in your mind and picture the circumstances.

Having said all that, there are people who still believe there's no such thing as Gulf War Syndrome or that autism, cerebral palsy and other conditions are not related to MMR. However, I think it depends a lot on whether or not you have a vested interest.

Just my thoughts on the matter,
Willie


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## 98452

When I have more time I will put a detailed reply.

As to which gas was used 8O how the heck do I know?

Must have been something in the air that night that theiving bar stewards took advantage of as at least 12 other got done as well including a spanish lorry driver behind us.

Have I got a commercial interest NO as even if an alarm warned you by the time it detected it you would probably be out of it.


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## Boff

johnandrews1954 said:


> I get really annoyed when people doubt it cant happen.


Hi John,

sorry for the annoyance. :wink:

it is probably due to my scientific education, but I do adhere to Carl Sagan's dictum: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence!" And being a little familiar with surgical and anesthetical procedures I do know that the claims here are more than extraordinary and the evidence is less than existing.

So, regarding the "gas" part, not about burglaries themselves, I do reserve the right to remain sceptical until being *proven* wrong.

And, by the way, any possible _practical_ way of knocking out sleeping motorhome inhabitants would mean to do so _after_ having entered the van, so would render gas alarms useless.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## 88927

I also remain very sceptical on the subject. Whilst feeling sorry for John and not wishing to belittle his awful experience I find it incomprehensible that all these people are gassed on one night and robbed with no real evidence ever being found, no chemical remains or funny smells in the van or on the occupants?????
I would think the military would be most interested to find out what this gas is and also to find out about the people using it as they appear to be able to knock out large numbers of people in confined spaces and then move around with impunity without protective breathing apparatus and steal things.... How does that work?
I look forward to the day that someone sets up a trap vehicle and actually catches these thieves (with or without their gas) and stops this fearful activity.

Keith


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## DABurleigh

John is a potential goldmine on the subject. We have been desperate to get someone who is absolutely convinced they have been gassed to stick their head above the parapet and give a detailed account. AFAIK those before who did the same on MHF gave a titbit then were never heard of again.

Let's just wait for the objective evidence and not encourage him to blow it up to convince an array of sceptics/ cynics!

Dave


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## 97734

I keep seeing these threads and keep asking myself the same question that Don asked "has anyone gone to hospital for a blood test to prove that they had been gassed"

Is there someone out there who believed they were gassed and did they go and have a medical afterwards? If so - I think you should speak up so as the rest of us can either sleep in peace or take appropriate measures to protect ourselves (whatever they may be!)

From the little I know, most substances introduced to the body remain in it in some form for up to 24 hours so there must be a way to detect the substance used.

I have every sympathy for those who have been robbed / burgled. However, in so far as gas attacks go - I am also a firm believer as a parent that not only do I have a responsibility to protect my family from real danger I also have a responsibility to not make them anxious about a danger that may not be real. If someone can prove Gas attacks are real by reporting back the results of a medical test result showing a toxic or anaesthetic compound was introduced to their body then I will take gas attacks seriously.


So, can anyone who has been gassed answer the medical question?


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## desertsong

Hello again,

I would like John to have the opportunity to ell us what happened. I think he is brave in saying this, but he really should qualify it too, even if only for his own credibility, not for an "array of sceptics/ cynics! " as Dave put it. 

Anyway, it isn't about being cynical, people really want to know. John had a bad experience and it could happen to any one of us, so of course we'are all sympathetic to his situation, but all we ask is to know how it came about and the mechanics of it.

If someone told me they'd seen an UFO and expected be to believe it without questioning the what, who, when, how and why of it, I don't know if that would say more about them or more about me. Anyway, it doesn't mean that because you question something that you are a cynic, it just means that you want to know. Anyway, when you say "array of sceptics/ cynics!" it implies therefore that their opinions are invalidated as they are sceptical.

So, John, we would like to know. We are with in this, not against you.

Willie


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## DABurleigh

"Anyway, when you say "array of sceptics/ cynics!" it implies therefore that their opinions are invalidated as they are sceptical. "

I sincerely hope not, as I am not usually in the habit of shooting myself in the foot. I consider myself sceptical, and invariably cynical when discussing matters of politics, management, etc. Those who know me consider me cynical all the time ....

Here is one of the better gas threads, and my position is clear in it:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-108257.html#108257

I am scientific, sceptical, but open-minded and neutral to objective evidence either way. Bit like the afterlife really - there is fascinating evidence but always inconclusive, so I'm still an agnostic, even though many have tried to get me to come down off the fence. But, boy, do I get antagonism from devout believers.

However, I'd much rather John's evidence had had the opportunity to come out naturally, rather than him knowing in advance it would be picked apart.

Dave


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## Boff

gevans55 said:


> I...as a parent that not only do I have a responsibility to protect my family from real danger I also have a responsibility to not make them anxious about a danger that may not be real.


I think you have a very valid point here. And as we can all agree without any doubt that _burglaries are a reality,_ I would like to think this to the end and ask:

*Whether burglars use "gas" or not, does it make any difference???*

_Does it make any difference for the Insurance?_
No, it does not. The insurance might check whether you have locked all doors etc. but they will not ask you for a blood sample to test for "gas".

_Does it make any difference for the victim's physical health?_
Well, it would be a genuine proof for a gas attack if there were any victim suffering _verifiable_ physical damage which can be traced back to "gas" by medical examination. As this has not happened yet, the answer here must also be: No.

_Does it make any difference for the victim's psycic well-being?_ 
It is of course a traumatic experience if being robbed. Sadly I know that from own experience. But, does it matter whether you were just naturally sleeping through it or not? No, it does not.

_Does it make any difference for the police investigation or the trial of the burglars (so they catch them)?_
Only if there were any solid evidence. So, again No.

_Does it make any difference regarding motorhome security precautions:?_
The only question where it would make a difference is whether to install a gas alarm or not. However, as it is extremely easy for burglars to outwit a gas alarm - by simply not using gas - *a gas alarm should never be the only security precaution!* All other preventive measures are completely independent of said question.

So, as a conclusion:

*The question "Do gas attacks happen or not" might be interesting for scientists, forensic experts and medical doctors, but for the practical motorhomer it simply makes no difference!*

Please don't misunderstand me, I feel very sorry for all fellow motorhomers who have made unpleasant experiences. I do not want to be cynical here, only sceptical. I am ready to be convinced at any time, if sound evidence is provided.

Being a parent by myself I do take up the responsibility to protect my family. By following my instincts when selecting a sleeping spot AND by applying simple, mechanical security precautions. In my opinion there are two top priorities in case of a burglary: First, deter the potential burglars before they even attempt to break in, this is why I want visible precautions. Second, if first does not work then they should be forced to make so much noise and need so much time that I wake up before they have entered the van. But I do also take up the responsibility not to create any panic by telling horror stories about gas attacks.

Similar approach: If the weather is thundery I do consider the possibility of lightning when selecting a sleeping spot, so I would not select a spot on the tree-less peak of the highest hill within miles. But I do not consider the possibility of a meteor strike.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## 100345

*Gas Attacks*

I have read the comments here, and am undecided as to whether gas was actually used.

Has anyone considered that drinks may have been spiked, I am referring to the date rape drugs that are around. They would give similar effects and I am sure would enable complete control for the thieves to operate.

The mention of 12 vans being done in one night would be more plausible under this style of attack.


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## Grizzly

*Re: Gas Attacks*



niktuckuk said:


> Has anyone considered that drinks may have been spiked, I am referring to the date rape drugs that are around. They would give similar effects and I am sure would enable complete control for the thieves to operate.
> The mention of 12 vans being done in one night would be more plausible under this style of attack.


It's unlikely that all 12 van drivers and their passengers would have been drinking in the same place at the same time and no-one noticed their drinks being spiked. The scenario here would be the bar owner in cahoots with the robbers -and that is a bit far fetched considering how often these sort of attacks are alleged to happen.

I thought date rape drugs took effect quite quickly. Wouldn't they take effect before the owners got back to their vans and got ready for bed ? I've only spoken to one young lady who was a victim of such an attack and she felt awful next day.

G


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## 100345

*gas attacks*

Hi, what about the onboard water, I am only suggesting something a little more plausible, and on some sites with a communial centre it is possible for everyone to be drinking in the same locale, food for thought.


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## xgx

Boff

Well put!

vielen danke!


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## 98452

> Does it make any difference for the Insurance?
> No, it does not. The insurance might check whether you have locked all doors etc. but they will not ask you for a blood sample to test for "gas".


It did in our case as the caravan clubs insurers wanted to limit our loss of cash to a straight loss which was restricted in amount below what we lost.

I went back to them that us and other were somehow rendered unconscious so it must have been robbery with violence and they paid up instantly so it did help for insurance purposes.

My last post on the subject.


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## Boff

RR said:


> I went back to them that us and other were somehow rendered unconscious so it must have been robbery with violence and they paid up instantly so it did help for insurance purposes.


Hi,

I must admit that I am not too familiar with UK insurance regulations. But: Isn't it already "robbery with violence" if they forcefully break open the locked doors of your van? In Germany and Holland it definitely is.

If this is not the case in UK then I clearly see your point and have to withdraw my previous statement.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Telbell

Boff

No- in UK law for robbery with violence there has to be violence to the person-not property


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## teemyob

*Gas Attacks*

RIGHT,

Fed up of reading and hearing about this Gas thing (see my previous posts).

We Get Robbed and Mugged FACT

Gas Attacks ALL Driver be we Truckers, Chuggers, Tuggers or mere car Drivers are apparently Targets.

SO

If you read what car? they usually find a local ex con whose face is disguised so as not to be indentified, to carry out tests on car security.

If you watch the documentries on TV usually they find somebody similar to be voiced over as a once perpotrator of similar crimes.

So if we are such a vast growing bunch of Motorhomefacts subscribers who can gain 5% discount off Spiffbitz.com why can we not or (someone who knows someone at the BBC or French foreign office or somewhere) put these issues to them and get the whole thing staged in front of multiple CCTV cams?

A volounteer could set up camp south of Lyon Somewhere, big clou liner aside an old Swift with a Camera crew to include a Reporter Julian Manyon or Dermot Murnaghan because for me the reporters from the likes of "Builders from Hell" - "Holidays from Hell" and so on Just don't cut it for me.

Failing this

If ever one of us falls victim to Gas crime when you call the police tell them that your Aunt traveling with you is missing, along with the 20,000 Euros you had stashed in her knicker drawer. They may then carry out all manor of tests and you could see what they come up with. If the lab tests come back negative you could then blame that on the "Gas", and then explain it was just a dream and that your Aunty died penniless shortly after the French changed to the $Euro Dollar Currency.

So until then sleep tight and lets hope the the Calor Gas Mites Dont Bite or even worse Light.

Trev ZZZZzzzz :sleeping:

PS when you nip into your vanshop to buy a gas alarm, get a good inveter and a few extra 110Ah batteries and run your fridge off 240v as an extra precuation against stopping overnight with the fridge on -# shhhhhh Gas :-# )) I will not mention that word again.


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## geraldandannie

RR said:


> I went back to them that us and other were somehow rendered unconscious so it must have been robbery with violence and they paid up instantly so it did help for insurance purposes.


This is just the sort of comment which will proliferate the rumours / urban myths / true statements. If anyone thinks (present company excepted) that they could claim thousands for a loss by saying "Oh, by the way, we were gassed", then they'll do it. And one further incident is added to the 'growing epidemic'.

And people who have thousands of pounds-worth of stuff nicked (the people on Richard and Judy claimed £10k) - who takes this much value of equipment on holiday with them? I know there are people who have snazzy cameras (I'm thinking of Stew (antona) who does it for a living), but I would say we had less than £500-worth of cash / goods in France recently.

I can't say it doesn't happen. People making / selling gas attack alarms aren't going to deny it. It seems if you do lose a lot of value in a robbery, saying it was a gas attack gets you more from your claim (I'm not saying RR did this deliberately). And if the gas they use is heavier than air, wouldn't they need to use gallons and gallons of the stuff to fill the bottom part of the van ?

Perhaps the best thought is the one where someone breaks in, and then squirts something over your sleeping face. In which case, standard physical and electronic security measures should suffice.

Gerald


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## 98452

I promised myself I would not get drawn in again after the shredding I got on a similar post on this forum on the same subject but here I am again.

Caravan club wanted to pay us out £250 the maximum for a straight loss of cash (i.e. dropped it in the street)

I argued for the full £500 sterling we lost as we were asleep when it was taken and they even climbed over my sleeping Great Dane to obtain my car keys to check it out for cash and luckily if it's luck left the keys on the Land Rover seat. We were knocked out or we would have been woken so must have been knocked out with something as they robbed the Spanish lorry driver behind me and 11 other units.

By knocking us out it put our live involuntary at risk so they accepted it and paid out in full (luckily they did not get the 2000 euros we had under our fixed bed)

If it had just be us would have put it down to my 82 y o in 2004 father who has Alzheimer's so anything is possible sadly but when others were done to it could not have been him.

I put a picture showing what the had done to my caravan door (just 2 minor dent in the botton half of the frame)

*I have nothing to gain by sharing my experience and a lot to loose as I am getting extremely upset by innuendos that it's a myth or lie.*


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## tonyt

RR - Please don't get upset by those of us who have some doubts about the whole gassing story - we just want to understand how it can happen.
You have clearly had a nasty experience but there's one point you may be able to help us with (and I'm not knocking your report) - are you saying that 13 vehicles were "done" on the same night without anyone being woken by any of the intruder alarms that must have been fitted to at least some of them?

I doubt it would be possible to sleep through my alarm (and maybe I'm wrong about that!).

We are all concerned about the issue to varying degrees and it really does make a firey topic.

Were there any left overs (gas cannisters etc) from your attackers?


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## Scotjimland

> I have nothing to gain by sharing my experience and a lot to loose as I am getting extremely upset by innuendos that it's a myth or lie.


For the past three years I have been reading about alleged gas attacks and 'experts' giving their reasons why they can't happen, I have always taken the view that until proven I would keep an open mind.. sit on the fence. 
It has been said on here many times that all the reports and evidence were third or second hand and until we had a 'live' victim it was just hearsay, but the stories continued to mount and now we have a member has been gassed and robbed, he has given a first hand account, yet the doubters persist in saying he is mistaken. He cannot tell the modus operandi nor can he say what gas was used, so he must be lying ? how could he know ? .. 
What will it take for people to finally say .. yes, it can and does happen. 
John has given his account, you either believe him or call him a liar and put your head back in the sand..

The experts can procrastinate, I will fit a gas alarm and doubt no more.


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## Grizzly

ScotJimland said:


> The experts can procrastinate, I will fit a gas alarm and doubt no more.
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of gas alarm will you fit Jim ?
> 
> If no-one know what gas is used -or even what class of gas- then how can manufacturers make a reliable alarm ?
> 
> G
Click to expand...


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## Scotjimland

Grizzly said:


> What kind of gas alarm will you fit Jim ?
> 
> If no-one know what gas is used -or even what class of gas- then how can manufacturers make a reliable alarm ?


Valid point, we can only fit what is currently available, see below, it may or may not be 100% reliable, I'm not an expert .. I'm using common sense and have no wish to enter into further debate.

http://www.outdoorbits.com/index.php/cPath/5_27


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## DABurleigh

FWIW, having to be convinced about the existence of gas attacks is not a pre-requisite for the act of buying a gas alarm to be a prudent one.

I'm not convinced, but in Jim's position I'd do the same.

Dave


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## thefman

well said jim 
i totally agree, but i just have one thought ,why dont they take the passengers out and nick the van?


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## spykal

Hi all

two things come to my mind on reading the latest posts in this thread....firstly, well done to you RR, for coming back ...I do admire your doggedness in the face of persistent doubt... I was a doubter too, in fact I still am a bit sceptical when I read some of the scare stories in the newspapers, but as I have read so many accounts now of these robberies *I now choose to believe *that an anesthetic or debilitating gas or some chemical agent is used..mind you I would, as everyone else here, like it to be confirmed with some forensic evidence.. so we will just have to wait, I am sure if it goes on happening, eventually evidence of the gas/agent or otherwise will come out.

and the second think :roll: is... we do not have a gas alarm in our van but we do have some extra security aids....a locking bar across the cab doors and a simple but effective door alarm, ....see below:










I have let it off accidentally a couple of times and it scares the hell out of me when I am half asleep so I am pretty sure if someone opens that door in the night, it will wake us up.

mike

P.S. Just as an example of the sort of reports that are very common now...even my local newspaper ran one this month:
Terror in the Tourer.....link<<


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## Grizzly

ScotJimland said:


> Grizzly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Valid point, we can only fit what is currently available, see below, it may or may not be 100% reliable, I'm not an expert .. I'm using common sense and have no wish to enter into further debate.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to be provocative Jim. We have a CO/CO2 detector fitted and would not be without it. Looking at the list of gases that the gas alarms are designed to detect then - for example, ether and chloroform would leave victims with a headache at the very least but, perhaps more significantly, would leave marks wherever the liquid was spilled - they would remove paint and varnish. Butane and propane detectors are fair enough - these are gases that could leak into the van from onboard bottles or tanks anyway. What I have not found specified are the "narcotic gases" that the alarms are designed to detect.
> 
> I'm a cynical consumer and like to have spelled out for me what I am buying and how it will do what I want it to do. I'm not convinced by these alarms and have a suspicion that the manufacturers are catching on to a good thing - without knowing exactly what they are doing.
> 
> G
> 
> G
Click to expand...


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## 98452

tonyt said:


> RR - Please don't get upset by those of us who have some doubts about the whole gassing story - we just want to understand how it can happen.
> You have clearly had a nasty experience but there's one point you may be able to help us with (and I'm not knocking your report) - are you saying that 13 vehicles were "done" on the same night without anyone being woken by any of the intruder alarms that must have been fitted to at least some of them?
> 
> I doubt it would be possible to sleep through my alarm (and maybe I'm wrong about that!).
> 
> We are all concerned about the issue to varying degrees and it really does make a firey topic.
> 
> Were there any left overs (gas cannisters etc) from your attackers?


11 touring vehicles of all shapes and size and a lorry driver (Spanish) who was parked behind me and called the Guardia.

I have no idea how it was done but leave it to say the Guardia seemed quite used to the reports and agreed with everyone it was only cash they were after.

I cant keep replying as I have said all I can on it.

Unless UFOs came and did it I have no other ideas on the matter but when we arrived at La Manga there were more stories of other incidents and people holiday ruined.

Our was the biggest holiday we had ever planned 8 weeks in Spain.

My misses now does not really enjoy any form of camping now ancd only continues because i love it and we cant take two Great Danes to any form of apartment or hotel.

I do hope none of you ever suffer this (on the other hand might not be so quick to doubt then)


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## 88862

I have no personal experience of gas attacks, but during the 1960/70s and early 1980s,befor fuel cards were widely available lot of middle east truck drivers carried anything between £2000 and £5000 for fuel,visas,backhanding customs ect.
It has been known,on occasion,for some of them to overspend there running money.
Quite by coinsidence some would then become the victim of a “gas attack.”
These attacks also happened to a lesser extent in Spain.
Since fuel cards have been widely available the "attacks" are extremely rare.


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## Grizzly

RR said:


> [
> My misses now does not really enjoy any form of camping now mad only continues because i love it and we cant take two Great Danes to any form of apartment or hotel.
> I do hope none of you ever suffer this (on the other hand might not be so quick to doubt then)


I hope your wife will get over this RR and you'll enjoy using the MH together soon. Would it help if you only stayed on campsites or France Passion sites where you are unlikely to be targetted ?

Don't let the b******s who robbed you get the better of you both !

G


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## Scotjimland

If we accept that gas attacks are possible the next step is to take sensible precautions.. good security is the first step, strong mechanical door protection backed up by an electronic alarm.. rear ladders are a high risk, fit a ladder guard or if you don't use it remove it. There are lots of security ideas on the forum. 
Mike's door alarm is a cheap and effective way of deterring and waking you if there is an attempted forced entry.. I like it, it is simple, cheap, effective, and reliable.. the key to a good alarm system. 
Grizzly, you are correct to be sceptical of manufacturers motives for selling gas alarms, but as I understand it they do protect you from gas leaks from within the van, for that reason alone they are IMO worth fitting.. 
Sorry if I sounded defensive. ...


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## 98452

Grizzly said:


> RR said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> My misses now does not really enjoy any form of camping now mad only continues because i love it and we cant take two Great Danes to any form of apartment or hotel.
> I do hope none of you ever suffer this (on the other hand might not be so quick to doubt then)
> 
> 
> 
> I hope your wife will get over this RR and you'll enjoy using the MH together soon. Would it help if you only stayed on campsites or France Passion sites where you are unlikely to be targetted ?
> 
> Don't let the b******s who robbed you get the better of you both !
> 
> G
Click to expand...

My father was 82 at the time in 2004 suffers from Alzheimer's so I have to have him with me 24/7 (but we do now get a family in to give us a break but it mega £££££) but he was convinced we were traveling down the Autopista 7 in the wrong direction. It got so bad he was drumming on the back of my seat.

There is only so much of this one can take and I finally gave in to it and stopped against my better judgement.


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## Hub

Spykal,
That looks like a jolly good contraption............ please can you tell us where you got your alarm?

Cheers


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## spykal

Hub said:


> Spykal,
> That looks like a jolly good contraption............ please can you tell us where you got your alarm?
> 
> Cheers


Have a close look at the picture ...it is just a normal panic alarm...they are available everywhere, they are sold to carry in a ladies handbag or in the case of the one we have, carried when out jogging (some chance :lol: ). They have a pin and a cord that you pull out to set off the alarm. Ours is very loud and is powered by a 9volt battery.

In the picture the alarm is stuck above the door with a large patch of velcro and the cord that pulls the pin is hooked over a suction cup hook attached to the door. Once the cord is looped over the hook it is impossible to open the door without the alarm going off.......

Mike


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## an99uk

*Gas Attacks - First hand*

Hi there
These simple alarms are widely available in most supermarkets and Woolworths or even WHSmiths
There original use is as personal alarm usually intended to be carried by woman. (Rape alarm)
They are quite small, designed to be carried in the pocket, district nurses in our area are issued with them. The string goes around the wrist.

Make sure you get the ones with the string attachment, when the string is pulled out the alarm goes off and believe me Its LOUD.

Simply velcro /sticky fixer it to the wall and attach the string to the door or window. The one in the picture is fixed with a sucker type hook.
I looped ours over the door handle.

Hope this helps.

Angie...............


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## Scotjimland

Or , 
buy a proper door alarm from Maplins for a fiver which has a magnetic switch

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=31825&criteria=door alarm&doy=2m9


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## C7KEN

These panic alarms are what we use on all doors when asleep,we assume that the noise will wake us if the filth try to get in, they were about £2 each on ebay.


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## cabby

Having read nearly all the threads on here and other sites about this GASSING,I would like to point out one method of gassing people in vehicles without their being aware, especially in the night.unfortunately it could result in death.
No one takes much notice of an engine running at anytime during the night, we just assume it is a lorry or motorhome on its way or just arrived at the Aire. When I worked as an AA patrolman we used a diesel landrover. to dry out wet engines in the rain on a breakdown we used a flexible hose which fitted over the exhaust and blew hot air over the engine. This style of application is possible on a petrol engine to push exhaust fumes into the motorhome. this would be why no dogs gave an alert to intruders.We put most of our detectors too high up in the van to work in time, having a smoke detector high is fine but others should be place on the side of the bottom lockers.
Philip.


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## 100547

ive recently bought a gas alarm after hearing about these attacks and the instructions say that the unit must be placed above head level whilst laying down as the gas is light and rises they also say not to close as a 
strong whiff of alchol can set it off. guess whos sleeping under the awning? so anyway whose right does it sink or rise astra


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## 94415

These attacks always seem to take place on Aires and the like. I'm assuming people stop on them because they are free.

One thing that has always puzzled me is why, after spending many (and sometimes far too many!) thousands of pounds on their vehicles, do people begrudge spending a few extra quid on somewhere rather more secure to park for the night?
I've never heard of one of these 'attacks' taking place on a campsite, for instance.

(Now standing by, prepared to be shot down in flames!)


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## geraldandannie

ScotJimland said:


> If we accept that gas attacks are possible ...


That's the problem, Jim - I read on this forum and on others many, many reasons why a gas attack is IMpossible. There are reasons (one of which RR has posted) why attributing a breakin to a gas attack could be beneficial to the victim.

Like you, I have no idea whether it is or it isn't, but I think we should all be prepared to take sensible precautions. Not stopping at a motorway aire would be a good fist step, I think, but if you have to, physical security must be high on the list - locks, alarms, etc. If I intended to stay on a motorway aire, then maybe I'd get a gas alarm, just in case. But these stories have put me off that, and I would always aim to make it to some other stopping place.

As I've said before, in case anyone takes offence, I'm not saying it didn't, couldn't, and doesn't happen.

Gerald


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## geraldandannie

spykal said:


> P.S. Just as an example of the sort of reports that are very common now...even my local newspaper ran one this month:
> Terror in the Tourer.....link<<


These were the two that appeared on Richard and Judy a few weeks back. "As well as a large amount of money" - having been robbed once, they were still carrying a large amount of money where someone could get their hands on it? To me, that sounds just stupid.

Gerald


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## teemyob

*Attacks and robberies*

Maybe if we could switch the topic title from "Gas Attacks" to Motormugging or something. Seems to me that in general we are all aware of being robbed in some way but too convinced we are at risk of being Gassed. 
I note that the reports that we have had (or those that I have read or otherwise been made aware of) rarely involve children or large groups of say 6!

In response to the poster who said after paying so much money for a MH why not spen the extra few pounds on an overnight stop at campsites. Is the reason that we bought these expensive rigs not to avoid paying hotel prices? The extra few quid can amount to £200+ on some sites for 6 people over four nights. To me we are then entering hotel money and are we not driving around in our own?

Trev


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## 94415

*Re: Attacks and robberies*



teemyob said:


> In response to the poster who said after paying so much money for a MH why not spen the extra few pounds on an overnight stop at campsites. Is the reason that we bought these expensive rigs not to avoid paying hotel prices? The extra few quid can amount to £200+ on some sites for 6 people over four nights. To me we are then entering hotel money and are we not driving around in our own?
> 
> Trev


I wouldn't quite agree with that!
I haven't just forked out loads of money on my MH to save money. What I have paid for it would keep me and the missus in very comfortable hotel accomodation for a good many years! However, that's a different story.

I think the point I was trying to make was that, in areas where there is known to be a problem, the best way to avoid it is not to stay in the 'wrong' places in those areas. It's worth paying a few extra quid occasionally for peace of mind and security, is it not?

Phil


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## Grizzly

astra said:


> ive recently bought a gas alarm after hearing about these attacks and the instructions say that the unit must be placed above head level whilst laying down as the gas is light and rises they also say not to close as a
> strong whiff of alchol can set it off. guess whos sleeping under the awning? so anyway whose right does it sink or rise astra


If I wanted to be really cynical about the motives of the manufacurers and sellers of gas attack alarms then the instructions on this one would give me plenty of ammunition.

They list the gases they detect. All, with the exception of carbon monoxide, are *heavier* than air. To be effective the alarm should be *low* in the van.

Having a carbon monoxide detector is a good thing - a faulty fire, water heater or cooker can produce this gas. The manufacturers have, to my mind, sold you, at great expense, a CO detector and made you think it will be effective against ether, chloroform etc. You could ( and should) buy a CO detector for less money.

I'm worried too by the fact that the fear of theft while under the influence of narcotic gas is prompting MHers to lock themselves into the van with too many locks. Think of the recent thread about a fatal van fire. I wonder if the couple in that van were locked in and couldn't, in their panic, open the door quickly enough.

Fit an intruder alarm, park in a safe place and sleep well.

G


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## Hub

Thanks for the info re. alarms.
Maplins one looks good. (with the added advantage of NOT having to venture out to the shops........... :roll

Cheers all


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## 89673

We've always had an open mind about these reports. Like many other posts we wouldn't say it couldn't happen but the physics do leave questions. 

Without naming specific contributors, (as the list would be too long) there has been a lot of sensible comment on this topic to do with what we as MHers can do for ourselves and I won't repeat them now.

Not wanting to ignite another issue but people can be targetted and the spiking of drinks is possibly as likely as being gassed! The list no dounbt could go on and on and on and ...........

Awareness is the key. Awareness of our surroundings. The location does it look safe, feel safe. Gut feelings should never be ignored. Who is around you? What are they doing? What can you do to make yourself visibly less attractive a target? Don't flaunt expensive pieces of kit about. Have basic security items such as a vehicle alarm and good quality locks.

Yes we go on holiday to get away and have a break, but it doesn't mean you can stop being alert. After all the country needs more lerts!

Anyone who has been attacked or is worried about such things should just take a few minutes to ponder, "What can I do to make myself safer?"

The answer need not necessarily be filling the 'van with mountains of alarms beyond the basic vehicle alarm. Common Sense (which we all know is particularly uncommon) is more often than not what is required and on the whole the average MHer is pretty savvy on most matters.

I could go on, but this debate is already on five pages!

Happy Camping!

H&B


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## Dudcotion

Ok, so we may be gassed. Are there any credible reports of a gas alarm going off and thwarting an attack? Cheers, Colin.


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## 99412

*Final word on 'gas attacks' - from Royal College!*

A nice rejoinder to this chestnut was presented by the Royal College of Anaesthetists in the February 2007 MMM. See page13 -14 for details.

Basically they debunk the whole idea just as I have tried to do.

Well worth a read!


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## Motorhomersimpson

Hi DaMAN,

This has already covered in depth as it was picked up from the MMM site, I believe it to be the same article.

I just have to find it and will give you the link :wink:  

Thanks

MHS...Rob


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## Motorhomersimpson

Ok, here is the link, http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-185412.html#185412

If this should be different to what you mentioned please pm me as I do not have the MMM to verify.

MHS...Rob


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