# Beware!



## kennyboy

Whilst travelling through Spain on our way to Portugal, we were stopped by the Spanish police at the Burgos motorway tolls.
Having been stopped twice before when towing our Smart car on an A-frame, we now tow our Smart on a trailer. So we did not think that we had anything to worry about. Well how wrong can you be? 
This time the copper got his tape measure out and measured our van plus trailer and decided that we were too long, just over 12 metres. 20 cms to be precise.
We should have had a "Long Vehicle" sign attached to the trailer.
Obviously we did not have one so it was 105 Euros fine on the spot   
So be very careful before setting off to Spain if you are towing.
Make sure that you are under 12 metres or fix a "Long Vehicle" sign to your trailer!!!
By the way we hate the Spanish police!! :evil: :evil: 

Ken


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## sweetie

just read about going large (12m) in this months CC magazine.We where obviously lucky when we recently returned home as come across police at 4 tolls and was 13m long inc trailer. New signs for next year.

Steve


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## chalky9

kennyboy said:


> By the way we hate the Spanish police!! :evil: :evil:
> 
> Ken


It's not the fault of the Spanish police that you were breaking the law :!: :roll: :wink:


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## pete4x4

So can you get prosecuted for having a long vehicle sign if your not ,ie 11.8m
I'd rather be safe than sorry!!


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## kennyboy

Chalky9

Obviously we are law abiding citizens and try to respect the law whatever country we are in. We live in France so we are used to different customs etc...
BUT there is something about Spanish police which get right up our noses.
It was in Spain we were stopped twice with our A-frame and you try arguing with them on the side of the road about A-frame being legal in England!!!!
Ken


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## asprn

chalky9 said:


> It's not the fault of the Spanish police that you were breaking the law :!: :roll: :wink:


Here's a first - me defending the poster's comment against foreign colleagues! 8O I would feel exactly the same, to be honest - 105,00€ for 20 cms by a tourist whose rig was (presumably) otherwise safe & competent? Pretty sore, and IMHO, a fairly harsh comment above.

Unless the driver had a seriously bad attitude for no reason, I would never stick a tourist on for that - I'd advise them & assume they would want to conform to the UK road traffic laws by buying a sign as soon as possible.

Dougie.


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## pippin

Last week we saw a couple of French lorries heading for the ferry at Fishguard.

They were sporting "CONVOI EXCEPTIONNEL" signs - made us think we were on holiday in France!


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## kennyboy

Thanks Dougie! We felt hard done by as our rig was very safe and totally legal. It was 1 Jan, a very good start of the year!
Also they were using new hand held computers so it took nearly an hour to process the fine!
Ken


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## iandsm

*spannish police*

I think you were hard done by but you were not legal as you sugest otherwise you would not have been fined and its no good arguing that your rig was legal in the UK, you were in Spain. However I still think you were hard done by and perhaps a warning, as suggested would have been more appropriate. If you think about it, did you put their noses out of joint by arguing the point.


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## richardjames

I thought that as part of the EU that members are suppsed to respect the legalities of the member state! 8O 8O 8O So if legal in the UK ????


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## kennyboy

Having travelled extensively around Europe we definitively know better than arguing with policemen and specially Spanish ones! But we were told by our Spanish friend (we have a few, not policemen obviously!) that coppers get 30% of fines collected. So they would rather get the money than give you a warning.
I only posted my story to warn people and I did not think I would get the third degree from fellow compatriotes!
Ken


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## zappy61

Well said Dougie, thats what I call positive policing. It encourages the public to be legal and decent, sometimes excessive force drives people the other way.

Graham


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## DTPCHEMICALS

Wrong James.
It `s a pity our police are not as vigilant in our area. Polish and Lithuanian wrecks galore.

Yep anything over 12 meters needs 2 warning stickers.

Will look silly on Smart when not on trailer.
Or will that be another law breaker.

Dave P


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## pete4x4

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> Wrong James.
> It `s a pity our police are not as vigilant in our area. Polish and Lithuanian wrecks galore.
> 
> Yep anything over 12 meters needs 2 warning stickers.
> 
> Will look silly on Smart when not on trailer.
> Or will that be another law breaker.
> 
> Dave P


That's a very good point as there is no where big enough on the rear of my car trailer to put those stickers, they are too big and the trailer bed is below 50cms, the car sits forward of the back of the trailer.
What happens now?


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## kennyboy

I just screwed the sign to the back bumper of the Smart car. It is easily removable when not needed. 
That is probably wrong but I am sure someone will have great pleasure in telling me so.


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## aguilas389

*Jobsworthy's*

Maybe the Trafico (I presume is was Trafico no Guardia Civil) was related to the bigot in Oswestry UK who left a parking ticket on my Spanish registered car which was legally parked in a disabled space displaying a Spanish (EU) badge. The slur that the police get 30% of given out fines is just another rumour started by dissatisfied expats who don't comply with Spanish law. The law is the stated length and whether it be a metre over or a few centimetres over, its over. By the way I simply put the summons in the nearest rubbish bin before returning home to Spain.


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## kennyboy

Sorry Aguilas389, i don't quite understand. please explain why is it wrong for the British police to give you a fine for a non British badge? I would thing that is breaking the law in England like we were breaking Spanish law by being 12 cms over. At least you were lucky you could get away without paying!!!


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## rayc

kennyboy said:


> Sorry Aguilas389, i don't quite understand. please explain why is it wrong for the British police to give you a fine for a non British badge? I would thing that is breaking the law in England like we were breaking Spanish law by being 12 cms over. At least you were lucky you could get away without paying!!!


I think he said it was 'legally'parked when he got the ticket. Perhaps Spanish Police have been takingh lessons from the various motoring enforcement agencies and councils in the UK. There are plenty of recorded instances of a wheel slightly over a line of a parking bay, or disabled badges upside down leading to a penalty notice,.
The Spanish Police action was deplorable but no more so than many UK agencies.


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## aguilas389

*Jobsworthy*

The British bigot was completely in the wrong to ticket my car because the disabled badge was valid, displayed correctly and quote "This card entitles the holder to special local parking facilities available in the Member States concerned" unquote. This is stated on the badge in various languages including English.
Mike


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## hblewett

richardjames said:


> I thought that as part of the EU that members are suppsed to respect the legalities of the member state! 8O 8O 8O So if legal in the UK ????


No way! In Germany there are prescribed times at the weekend when it is illegal to mow your lawn! In Italy (and some other countries you have to have a sign on any bikes you have on the back of your motorhome ...and ....and....

If you go abroad you need to check before you go. Only problem is knowing what you need to check!


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## rayc

*Re: Jobsworthy*



aguilas389 said:


> The British bigot was completely in the wrong to ticket my car because the disabled badge was valid, displayed correctly and quote "This card entitles the holder to special local parking facilities available in the Member States concerned" unquote. This is stated on the badge in various languages including English.
> Mike


I wouldn't take it personally as a 'bigot' type of thing. It had nothing to do with the car being Spanish or any such thing. You are not going to get the brightest buttons doing their job and if they are told to check for a certain type / colour of card they will. Common sense is not part of the job description and as you never actually suffered any financial or other loss it would be best to forget about it. Life ain't fair especially in the UK traffic enforcement world.


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## billym

So you don't like the Spanish Police.

You got stopped by a Copper

You were 20 cms too long ( or 12 cms depending on which post one reads )

You got done . 

That's life


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## 96299

billym said:


> So you don't like the Spanish Police.
> 
> You got stopped by a Copper
> 
> You were 20 cms too long ( or 12 cms depending on which post one reads )
> 
> You got done .
> 
> That's life


I dont think the op was complaining about being done, he was just trying to warn others about it thats all :roll:

There seems to be alot of saints on this site lately.

steve


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## kennyboy

I think next time I will not bother warning anyone as it seems to have been the wrong thing to do.
I am very sorry I broke the law, I was in the wrong, yes it is life and I am going to get over it and I am also very sorry I said I hated the Spanish police.   
Ash Wednesday today.
Ken


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## eddied

*Law and law breakers*

 Ciao tutti,
hblewtt is quite right of course. There is a difference between national legislation, and EU legislation. On any particular case, EU legislation overides national legislation. Don't worry, the EU Directive 2009/99999/ZZZ on lawn mowing is being cooked up in Brussels as we type!
saluti,
eddied


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## Nora+Neil

Kennyboy

I for one was delighted that you posted.
I now have learned something new and will not travel with a trailer that is too long.
This is how we learn things.
Thanks again.


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## autostratus

kennyboy said:


> ........I think next time I will not bother warning anyone as it seems to have been the wrong thing to do..
> Ken


Sorry but you're wrong if you think that.

Information such as that is posted for the good of the community.
The majority of those who read it will say thank you under their breath and file the information away for later, should they need it.

Thank you for posting it.


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## loddy

Kennyboy

Thanks for the info I shall be towing a car and the first opportunity I get I shall measure the overhaul length

Loddy


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## pippin

Sack cloth and ashes today for all those who responded negatively.


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## kkclassic

*towing*

Hi

As a newbie here I have learnt so much from all the posts and I appreciate the time and trouble that you took to post your experience with the towing of your vehicle.

I am at the stage of do I toad/trailer or go electric bicycles and not have any of the bother.

Make your mind up time is coming soon re what to do for extra transport. We are 10m before we add anything on the back so a lot of thought needs to be done about this.

Once again Thanks for the informative post.


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## ThursdaysChild

RJ

"Well, your Honour, I always thought that..............."

Clink.


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## ThursdaysChild

Aguilas

Had you paid for your parking space ?

Most councils provide special parking places for the disabled, but not all are free of charge. You can park carefully between the lines and display your badge, but if you haven't paid and displayed............


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## billym

The original posting obviously contained useful information. 

However, it was the manner in which it and subsequent comments were 

worded that I took issue with.



I get really tired of people who commit minor offences and then moan when 

they get done for them, like its so unfair ! What do they want ? Anarchy ?

The police have discretion to use their powers. Often that discretion is

directed by the attitude of the offender.


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## Fatalhud

*Re: Jobsworthy's*



aguilas389 said:


> The law is the stated length and whether it be a metre over or a few centimetres over, its over. By the way I simply put the summons in the nearest rubbish bin before returning home to Spain.


I love how in one sentence your saying that there should be no room for error in regard to the law then the next sentence just because you decide the ticket wasn't valid it doesn't count

Surely if the ticket was 100% wrong you should have done the law abiding thing and appealed against the ticket

Alan H


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## kennyboy

Sorry Billym but if you read our first post carefully we do not moan about the fine.
First we warn other people about length of rig. If we had know about it, we would have made sure we had a Long vehicle sign. We made sure we got one for the return journey.
Secondly how do you know we had an attitude problem with the police?
We did not see you there!!! We realise we were in the wrong and paid up.
Thirdly it does not mean we have to like the Spanish police. Do you work for the Spanish police?
This will be our last post on MH for a long while.


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## TonyF

Hi - just thought I'd add my 2p worth to try and give you some perspective - we live in spain and the loacal councils are going through an economic crisis (no funds coming in from building work etc)

The councils have realised that there is revenue in police fines and have given the police a very high target to achieve this year - therefore there are no cautions and every minor error gets a ticket.

There is even a case of an officer asking a driver for their documents - which they had to retrieve from the boot - the driver got a fine for getting out of the car without wearing the reflective jacket!

Hence we keep enough jackets in the cars (&MH) for every passenger and the required 2 triangles - I never park anywhere with the slightest doubt and religiously keep to the speed limits - don't cross solid white lines and stop where the sign says - no matter how absurd it is.

... I still got an €80 fine for parking between two cars on a shopping mall - they had parked on he bus stop sign and I failed to notice it under their cars....

still the road tax is cheap out here - it's still cheaper than motoring in the UK


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## Alfa_Scud

I'm frankly not surprised Kennyboy.

As you said you've posted a warning & then said you hate the police, just like most people would if they'd recently been done. It doesn't mean you actually do hate them, you just feel a bit hard done by.

Then you get strung up by a bunch of moaning do-gooders who have never in their life broken a single rule or law, Yea right!

It doesn't seem to matter what anyone posts on here at the minute, there seems to be someone sat at the keyboard just waiting to spout some dross about "well, you broke the law/rules/whatever so tough", or pontificate on the wrongness of your post.

Wake up chaps, everyone is entitled to pass on information, & yes you are entitled to your opinion, but please stop your constant sniping, it's getting beyond a joke.

There used to be quite a bit of good natured banter here & now it just seems to be _"no you're wrong, I'm right & your camper is frankly cr*p, Oh & you can't spell" _type stuff. I used to quite look forward to meeting some people off here (I haven't yet), but now I'm filled with dread - I don't think I'd admit to who I am for fear of being pontificated to.

I know it's by no means everyone, it just feels that way at the minute.

Anyway, for what it's worth, Thanks Kennyboy, I'm nowhere near that length but if I was I'd have a sign!! 

_Edited for a couple of spelling mistakes, before I get lambasted!_


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## bobandjane

Hi kenny, 

Thanks for posting this , and as you say, it may stop others getting fined as well.  It would be nice to know if the Spanish Police are picking on others, or is it just the Brits that they are picking on.

We tow a car on an A Frame, we have not been or have any plans to take it anywhere near Spain, we have friends in Spain, so we only go to visit them, but next time will be on a plane.There are better and safer places we would rather go.  Bob.


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## Boff

Hi,

just to bring up a completely different aspect:

*I am not aware of any regulation that requires a "Long Vehicle" sign when exceeding 12 metres! Neither in Spain nor anywhere else.*

And normally I am quite firm in such matters.

Could it be that you have been set up by _bogus policemen?_

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## rayc

TonyF said:


> Hi - just thought I'd add my 2p worth to try and give you some perspective - we live in spain and the loacal councils are going through an economic crisis (no funds coming in from building work etc)
> 
> The councils have realised that there is revenue in police fines and have given the police a very high target to achieve this year - therefore there are no cautions and every minor error gets a ticket.
> 
> This is what was happpening here with the speed camera partnerships before the Government changed the rules so that the fines went to central government. It is a well publicised fact where I live that the council's revenues from car parking have plummeted, [their word], over the last year or so. I suppose we should at least be grateful that councils do not, at the moment anyway, control the Police,
> 
> As far as the original post is concerned all I can say is thank you to the poster. His account was factual and all he said was he "hates the Spanish Police". That is his perogative and I took it as him being miffed because the Police showed no leniency for such a minor trangression. Anyway he should hang on in here.
> Sleep soundly in you beds as, according to the supporters of the establishment and their agents, "If you have not done anything wrong you have nothing to fear". Try telling that to Timothy Evens.


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## colonel

Kennyboy,

Having read all the threads, the majority of responses were sympathetic rather than confrontational. 

There are always people with a different view to us and sometimes we find that irritating. It is the way of the world. A large number of us are at the Grumpy Old Men stage of our lives, others are just more righteous, and some are just bored waiting for the weather to improve so they can get out in the MH's so spend all their time on here.

The main thing is don't take it personally and don't stop posting on here. Everyone's experiences are different so we all have different views. It's what makes the world go round. If you take exception to an individual's post, just don't read their replies anymore. It's what I do.

Good Luck :wink: :wink:


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## suffolkian

Ken
Be a souffle......and rise above it. Keep posting, your warning was well received by most people and may have had a positive effect on some motorhomers that were unaware of the length issue.

Ian and Steve


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## vardy

Me and my shrimpy van don't go far - but that doesn't mean I can't get into BIG trouble !

I have been a bit clever since getting a new clutch - but all these posts have reminded me to take care, albeit from a different perspective.

Went round a huge roadmending rig a couple of years ago, with no sign on the back. Got out a few metres and nearly swallowed myself when I saw the length of the thing. One bad moment!

Saved by a lorry who spied my gaffe and slowed up. So your 105 euros and all this chat has been a reminder and brought me back to heel!!!


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## billym

You're right Kennyboy I was not there but prior to my first posting I read

yours and picked out the following phrases

............ we hate the Spanish Police.

.............get right up our noses

............you try arguing with them

............. totally legal

............ coppers get 30 % of fines collected

.............. get the third degree



Well I am sorry but on reading your posts I just thought maybe 

there may have been some kind of confrontation. Now you may say

that it's none of my business and you would be right, but you did

post it on a public forum !


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## TJ101

Alfa_Scud said:


> I'm frankly not surprised Kennyboy.
> 
> As you said you've posted a warning & then said you hate the police, just like most people would if they'd recently been done. It doesn't mean you actually do hate them, you just feel a bit hard done by.
> 
> Then you get strung up by a bunch of moaning do-gooders who have never in their life broken a single rule or law, Yea right!
> 
> It doesn't seem to matter what anyone posts on here at the minute, there seems to be someone sat at the keyboard just waiting to spout some dross about "well, you broke the law/rules/whatever so tough", or pontificate on the wrongness of your post.
> 
> Wake up chaps, everyone is entitled to pass on information, & yes you are entitled to your opinion, but please stop your constant sniping, it's getting beyond a joke.
> 
> There used to be quite a bit of good natured banter here & now it just seems to be _"no you're wrong, I'm right & your camper is frankly cr*p, Oh & you can't spell" _type stuff. I used to quite look forward to meeting some people off here (I haven't yet), but now I'm filled with dread - I don't think I'd admit to who I am for fear of being pontificated to.
> 
> I know it's by no means everyone, it just feels that way at the minute.
> 
> Anyway, for what it's worth, Thanks Kennyboy, I'm nowhere near that length but if I was I'd have a sign!!
> 
> _Edited for a couple of spelling mistakes, before I get lambasted!_


100% Alfa_Scud",,

I am relatively new here,, and even i have noticed, 
When someone posts some information, that they though would be of use and benefit to other members etc, their then follows other post, with members arguing the toss, and picking holes in the OP, just for the sake of it,,

Is this really what happens here ???

Thank you Kennyboy



Boff said:


> Hi,
> 
> just to bring up a completely different aspect:
> 
> *I am not aware of any regulation that requires a "Long Vehicle" sign when exceeding 12 metres! Neither in Spain nor anywhere else.*
> 
> And normally I am quite firm in such matters.
> 
> Could it be that you have been set up by _bogus policemen?_
> 
> Best Regards,
> Gerhard


Ditto, Can someone show me where it states the law about "Long Vehicle " sign is needed, 
As far as i understood,in the UK at least,, this sign is not required for "light trailers" and only a legal requirement for trailer over 3500kg,, or when the tow vehicle is over 7500kg GW


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## loughrigg

[/quote]

Ditto, Can someone show me where it states the law about "Long Vehicle " sign is needed, 
As far as i understood,in the UK at least,, this sign is not required for "light trailers" and only a legal requirement for trailer over 3500kg,, or when the tow vehicle is over 7500kg GW[/quote]

Try this:

Statutory Instrument 1989 No. 1796 
The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989
Schedule 19

at

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19891796_en_24.htm

Happy reading

Mike


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## TJ101

Thanks Mike,, Section 19 Part 1

I did find that site a while ago,, only got to lighting regs so far !!!!! 8O ,,


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## loughrigg

TJ101 said:


> Thanks Mike,, Section 19 Part 1
> 
> I did find that site a while ago,, only got to lighting regs so far !!!!! 8O ,,


Spoil yourself - skip to section B.....it's got drawings!!!!!

Mike


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## TJ101

Yep, got them,, 
Need to check the exact length, but already have drawing 5 on the back  so hopefully over 13m !!


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## Tucano

Driving on a military base in Saudi Arabia I was stopped by the police for speeding, and I most certainly was not. After studying my personal ID, military ID etc etc they asked to see the cars ID etc etc, that I had left in the boot. Getting out of the car to retrieve these documents the policeman then also fined me for not wearing the seatbelt that I had just undone to leave the car !!!!
I laughed so much I was almost arrested ~~~~~~~~
Regards, 
Norman


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## Tucano

Driving on a military base in Saudi Arabia I was stopped by the police for speeding, and I most certainly was not. After studying my personal ID, military ID etc etc they asked to see the cars ID etc etc, that I had left in the boot. Getting out of the car to retrieve these documents the policeman then also fined me for not wearing the seatbelt that I had just undone to leave the car !!!!
I laughed so much I was almost arrested ~~~~~~~~
Regards, 
Norman


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## Sonesta

kennyboy said:


> Whilst travelling through Spain on our way to Portugal, we were stopped by the Spanish police at the Burgos motorway tolls.
> Having been stopped twice before when towing our Smart car on an A-frame, we now tow our Smart on a trailer. So we did not think that we had anything to worry about. Well how wrong can you be?
> This time the copper got his tape measure out and measured our van plus trailer and decided that we were too long, just over 12 metres. 20 cms to be precise.
> We should have had a "Long Vehicle" sign attached to the trailer.
> Obviously we did not have one so it was 105 Euros fine on the spot
> So be very careful before setting off to Spain if you are towing.
> Make sure that you are under 12 metres or fix a "Long Vehicle" sign to your trailer!!!
> By the way we hate the Spanish police!! :evil: :evil:
> 
> Ken


Hi Ken,

Thanks everso for the information as we too tow a Smart car behind our MH. We however tow ours using a braked A Frame, but I guess with our MH being approx 9 metres in length, that together with the A Frame and the Smart, we too would be in excess of the 12 metre rule, so we will definitely make sure we have a long vehicle sign fixed to the rear on our next trip so thanks for the warning, it is much appreciated.

You mentioned in your post that you had been stopped twice before by the Spanish police when you used to tow your Smart using an A Frame and I was curious to hear more about that, so would you be so kind as to let me know what the outcome was for you on those two occasions? Did they give you an on the spot fine then and if so how much etc? With us towing with an A Frame I am keen to know of any laws that we may be breaking in and around Europe. I was of the opinion that if it was legal in the UK then it was okay in Spain and other european countries but obviously this is not the case - so it is quite worrying to say the least. Why can't these laws be clear and concise with no grey areas? It would certainly make life and travel so much easier for everyone then and at least we would all know for sure if the Spanish or any other country's police force were behaving honestly and fairly!

By the way Ken, having read some of the replies in this thread and your obvious concerns regarding some of the responses, I truly hope you are not deterred from posting again on the forum as I truly believe that the vast majority of members on MHF welcome this kind of information and greatly appreciate the fact that members like yourself, take the time and trouble to inform us of such things. I think for people to make such an issue out of your "tongue in cheek remark" re the Spanish police is yet again another case of some members making a huge mountain out of a tiny molehill and I am sure that you did not intend your comments to be taken quite so literally? I for one appreciate posts like yours and if you do feel a bit narked by the Spanish constabulary then it's only cos you are human and I daresay most of us mere mortals would MOMENTARILY despise them too! 8O

Thanks again Ken and I look forward to hearing what the outcome was regarding your experience with the Spanish police and the A Frame? And by the way - I order you to keep on posting ......... OKAY? 

Sue


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## chalky9

Sonesta said:


> I think for people to make such an issue out of your "tongue in cheek remark" re the Spanish police is yet again another case of some members making a huge mountain out of a tiny molehill


If it was a "tongue in cheek" remark then why didn't kennyboy use an appropriate emoticon - :wink: or :lol: for example - rather than the more inflammatory :evil: :evil: which he did use?

It is difficult to read someone's mood from the written word, which is why somebody invented emoticons. They are an important indicator as to whether a remark is meant in an amusing or a serious way.


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## stewartwebr

Thank you Kennyboy for the warning. I have just been checking online to get the measurements of my Van and trailer. It would appear that the Swift Voyager is 7.08m long and the trailer is 3.66m long Total length = 10.74m. So no requirement for me to have a sign Phewwww

Thanks for the warning as I had never heard about it

Stewart


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## MyGalSal

Tucano said:


> Driving on a military base in Saudi Arabia I was stopped by the police for speeding, and I most certainly was not. After studying my personal ID, military ID etc etc they asked to see the cars ID etc etc, that I had left in the boot. Getting out of the car to retrieve these documents the policeman then also fined me for not wearing the seatbelt that I had just undone to leave the car !!!!
> I laughed so much I was almost arrested ~~~~~~~~
> Regards,
> Norman





> Norman
> We used to live in Saudi and like you had to laugh at a lot of similar stuff - once you lose your sense of humour it is time to leave.........
> 
> Sal


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## Sonesta

chalky9 said:


> [
> If it was a "tongue in cheek" remark then why didn't kennyboy use an appropriate emoticon - :wink: or :lol: for example - rather than the more inflammatory :evil: :evil: which he did use?
> 
> It is difficult to read someone's mood from the written word, which is why somebody invented emoticons. They are an important indicator as to whether a remark is meant in an amusing or a serious way.


Oooh come on now chalky ....... was what Kennyboy said REALLY that serious? Surely it's not worth getting your boxers in a twist over!  For goodness sake - he hasn't committed some unholy sin now has he? 8O Lighten up for gawds sake! :lol:

Right I'm gonna say no more on the matter cos I don't want to get dragged into any confrontations with anyone over summat as flipping daft as this! :roll:

Sue


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