# Electrics - dead leisure battery then all OK



## legend

On Monday we were off to Scotland for three days.
I came to start the W reg Legend on a Ford chassis and the battery was nearly flat - I should have charged it but..........
Anyway after a couple of short charges it still wouldn't start so I tried putting jump leads from the leisure battery with no success.

Question No 1 - Is this permissable or a NO NO?

A further charge with the charger got us going. We were away at 10.30am.
A couple of hundred miles later we stopped for coffee etc. The pump ran to fill the kettle and the electronic igniter worked to light the gas. We then went on our way again.
After a journey of 320 miles in total and a meal out we arrived at our spot for the night. It was pitch black with no lighting anywhere.
The ford cab interior light was on and I switched on an interior light and nothing. A brief attempt at a flash but nothing.
I pressed the button to check the battery and nothing - the tiny bulb in the water tank meter also illuminates at this time and had a job to glow red.
So it was out with the gas lamp (it warms as well) and no bedtime drink. All was left to be sorted out in the morning.
Got up in the morning and just tried a light and it worked! Everything worked!
I decided to leave well alone and everything worked for the rest of the stay and is still working.

Question 2 - Has anyone any idea of what happened?

I don't know if I did some damage to the leisure battery when I used it to connect jump leads to - but it worked on the journey up but not when I got there. I would have thought that if it had been damaged or discharged it wouldn't have worked half way along my journey and then not at all at the end of the journey.

Any suggestions would be appreciated but I expect that it wil be left to see if it fails again.

Not related to the above

My Legend is a 4 berth - it has a double bed over the cab but only the driver's and passenger's seats have safety belts.

Question 3 - How many people am I allowed to carry?

Is it 2 or 4 or as many as I can get in? 
I have read something about forward facing seats requiring seat belts so doeas that mean that I can fill the side seats but not the seat across the back of the vehicle?

I am relatively new to motorhoming - or more exactly recently returned to it. I had a VW about 25 years ago - a nice simple van with beds and a small kitchen!!

I look forward to any help.

David


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## 89122

Hi, try taking the battery leads of both batteries and cleaning the terminals and clamps, then lightly smear terminals with vasiline and replace leads, this may help.
Eddie.


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## legend

I got an email with the reply below - not sure why it came as an email and isn't posted here.
"By using the leisure battery to start your van you probably discharged it too far.
When you eventually got going, the amount of charge being pushed at your leisure battery to bring it back up was such that it blew the protective fuse in the charging circuit.

Hence battery dead when you got on site.
It has happened to us!
A friendly fellow camper found the inline fuse (30 or 35 amp) adjacent to the vehicle battery.

After replacing the fuse and charging the leisure battery while disconnected from the vehicle it was put back and it was ok afterwards."

I could agree with that except the fact that when I arrived on site it was about as flat as it could be, but in the morning it was mysteriously fully charged with nothing being done to it. We were in the middle of nowhere with no hookup.

Likewise to rapido786f - all terminals are clean and greased. I could understand it if it was flat at the begining of the journey and charged at the end but it was the other way around. Then mysteriously charged in the morning ???????


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## 88724

Hi Legend (which end foot or hip?)

The amount of discharge to start a vehicle is tiny

Lets go mad and say 300 Amps starting current that would be 300 AH but its only for 1 to 2 secs so divide by 60 Min = 5 AH divide again by 30 to get 2 secs worth and 60 to get one seconds worth = .08333 to .16666 of an Ah 

Also some claim that a leisure battery is made differently internally and should not be used to start vehicles, reality even if they are Made slightly different inside (most are not in the slightest bit different internally)

My local caravan shops van had a battery failure one morning, they didnt have time to mess about getting "proper Starter" battery and thought it will get us goingand when it fails we can replace with a proper starter, 3 years + later its still going strong starting a largish diesel engine.

Question 1 answer, no probs using for Jump (we are talking basic lead acid here )

Question 2

Its sounds very much like faulty connection between Battery and control board.

Check the connections on the liesure battery, and the wiring and connections between the battery and zig unit.

Question 3

Motorcaravans, you can carry as many people as you can reasonably seat, driver and front passenger must wear unless exempt, rear passengers no probs.

Situation can be different abroad, if you have kids, its hard to see where we would stand with regard too seatbelts for kids as certain countries have laws saying kids under certain age Must be belted up (France for one) generally we are ok with differences in law ie because it is ok under UK Construction and use generally you get safe passage thru euro land.


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## BrianR

Whilst legally all seats can be used without seat belts, if there are none fitted, it is not a sensible thing to do.Without a seat belt, any accident, even at a speed as low as 30mph, could result in unbelted passengers being killed or seriously injured. Just think how you would feel if this happened. And if that is not enough to discourage you, they (or their executors) could sue you, and your insurance company would not cover you.


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## legend

Thanks for that Brian.
I think we all know the consequences - it's just nice to know the law as well.
David


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## Brambles

Re Seat belts, as far as I understand the situation, if the rear seats to not have belts you can generally use the seats without problem. However in some countries children are not allowed to travel in the front, but if that is the only available seat with a belt then children must be given priority and can use the front seat as it is the only belted seat available. (priority over adults as well for available belts, in all countries that I am aware off)

I personally would NOT allow children to ever travel without a belt. Adults can make their own mind up if they want to travel without a belt fitted in the rear. Also if carrying children make sure you have a booster cushion/seat so the belt is located correctly over their shoulders/chest. It is also more comfortable for them and seeing out of windows etc. 

Bear in mind an adult (or child) in the back without a belt and if you have to brake suddenly wil fly forward and can do a lot of damage to themsleves, the van and you in the front.


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## dodger148

With the messing with electrics on A-S vans I have done in the past I am inclined to agree with George, as the connections at the control panel can be iffy on A-S monocoques (never sure if I spell that right-must look it up)


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## 88724

Hi Brian R

Sorry but you are wrong, of course it is possible to be sued, you could be sued for your post obviously, the suit would have no merit or chance.

The insurance company CANNOT refuse to pay out due to lack of belts in a legal vehicle. Check with the insurance Ombudsman's office.

The Above is the legal position and takes no account of any moral stand point.

It also depends on size of vehicle Large coaches have been involved in thousands of crashes and very very few injuries (most of which would not have been effected by having a seat belt on) Do a little research the results will surprise you. Luckily the people making the law do know this hence no pointless legislation.


George


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## 88724

BTW 

Brambles its not Just front seats, the wording of the French law says No Child under X age can be carried without a seatbelt, very complex and not sure what outcome would be.

On coaches Obviously doesnt apply, Same for motorhomes? any french manufacturers we could look at ?


George


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## Bazbro

With regard to the fitting of seatbelts in the rear of m/homes, irrespective of BrianR's point, it is dangerous to fit and then use a belt on a side-facing seat, probably more dangerous than if the occupant had remained unbelted.

If you have unbelted passengers in the back of your m/homes, remember they're there and drive accordingly (as I'm sure you all do!).

Barry


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## dodger148

Barry is correct on that one, thats why AS dont fit them on side seats. Had a long chat with Charles T on this a few years ago and he explained the legal and safety side, also some of the horror stories about people who had been wearing them.
That said, Explorer group fit them or did on our old Calypso (1996)


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## legend

Thank you all very much, but I would like to concentrate on the electrics.
That is my problem - the question of seating was just an aside.


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## legend

Today it was still acting up - one minute the 'house' lights wouldn't light and the battery level light showed red. Next minute it was all OK. - Very strange - it has the feel of an electronic fault about it somehow, I don't know why.
My meter is an old analogue one and both vehicle and leisure battery show a reasonable voltage.
I have today looked at the panel and was somwhat surprised.
I removed one fuse to check it and one holder came with it!!
I carried on to remove the other fuses - all together 5 clips came off with the fuses. (6 fuses in all) 3 fuse clips had aleardy been modified by removing the brass 'rivet' and replacing it with a small nut and bolt so there had obviously been a fault there in the past.
That makes 8 of the 12 clips hanging on by the skin of their teeth.
There are two multi cable connectors not far up the harness that can be brought out of the hole in the body lining after removing the control panel. This facilitates complete removal of the panel from the vehicle. 
I then stripped the panel down, sliding one end off and then removing the fuse carrier to enable easy working on the bench. A note being made of the colour of the wires to each tab. The middle 6 were just common live feeds so no need to worry too much about these.
Each tab was then removed, the brass 'rivet' removed and a small nut and bolt put in place. A touch of nail varnish (doesn't matter which colour!) on each nut to reduce the risk of it loosening, then the re-assembly and re-installation of the whole thing.
Now to do some testing


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## legend

Just went out to see what was happening and everything was working.
House lights OK, battery level showing green.

Then I turned on one of the spots in the lounge area and it didn't light and the flou on the ceiling went out immediately and the battery level showed red.

Switch eveything off for a few moments and try again. The flou half lights and the battery level is still red.

Switch eveything off for a few moments and try again - fluo on OK - spot on OK!
There is no consistency.
I will have to think about it.
Ideas on electrics would be welcome.
Thanks


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## 91929

Sound s like you have found the problem(s)
Loose wires/connections 
it may be best to replace the '[email protected] unit if there are so many botched fuse holder: goodness knows what else will be found faulty


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## legend

The state and quality of what I have found - I would prefer to rely on my solid repairs rather than face the prospect of it all hapenning again.
A five year old vehicle that has only done 8000 miles, things should not be in this state by now!!

PS look back to the bottom of page 1 for the latest tests - I thought I had found the problem.


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## Bazbro

From what you've found, the problem's clearly a faulty connection (maybe more than one). I'd start at the battery (assuming live and earth are OK not just at the battery, but to the chassis as well?) then laboriously follow cabling, checking each joint. You may even find some dodgy ones that haven't started to play-up... yet!

Barry


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## dodger148

It seems as we thought, connections at the control panel
Regarding age, the first I played with wasnt two, the second our own was just over two when i relpaced all "zigs" rivets with small brass nuts and bolts. It is wrong when this sort of thing happens and it is a "known issue"
I dont know if you are in ASOC but over the years the membership have produced mods/ideas sheets which are vetted for safety at the factory prior to publication,so they know what we are all doing but still things dont change.


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## legend

dodger - just for you see http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=monocoque

I completely agree with you. That's why I think public forums like this are good. AS must be aware that this bad publicity is being aired and more importantly particularly amongst their customers / users.

Having put up with a ABI Jubilee Viceroy making an excellent impression of a sieve over the past 13 years I thought that I was putting bad workmanship and materials behind me! - I should be so lucky.

In Scotland we also had ingress of water via the heater flue somewhere and the front roof light.

I have cleaned all of the mastic from around all of the roof lights and replaced it for now. - I do like to completely remove the item and re-bed it but they would not part from the roof at the moment so a quick re-point was done.
I assume the flue allows rain into it when the wind is blowing, as it was in Scotland, and it trickles down inside.

Is there anything else I should expect?
Is there any other website giving the details.

David


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## legend

I went out to it this morning to see what is happening.
Battery indicator - green - OK
Put on fluo - OK
Additionally put on spotlight and evrything dies - spot, fluo, battery red
Switch all off and leave for a few minutes.

Try again
Battery shows green
try to re-create the fault - fluo on - Ok
Spot on - OK !! - that shouldn't happen!!
Put on EVERY light and it's OK

Leave for half an hour - all still OK

When it does all go out - if the fluo is switched on straight away after switching everything off it sort of lights momentarily and then quickly dulls down to a glow in one tube (they are double tubes) - it doesn't matter which fluo or which spot I use - it's the same. 

Is there a capacitor in the circuit or something that could have an intermittent fault on it?


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## Brambles

Hi,
It's unlikely to be a capacitor with an intermittent fault. What you could try doing is re-create the fault and then measure the voltage between +ve wire to one of the lamps to negative on the battery. Then measure the _ve wire on lamp to Battery GND. If both read approx 12 volts the fault is negative wiring, if voltage is 0 or low on 12 volts side then fault is on +ve wiring. This will at least narrow it down a bit.

If there are switches on the control panel for the 12 volts then I would also suspect them and you are really just going to have to trace the wiring is good all the way from the battery through the circuits. 
The symtom of appearing to get some volts is ofen an indication you have a burnt or dirty connection somewhere. The voltage does not seem to be flikering on and off - try tapping switched and manipulating connectors a little to see if that helps isolate fault. Another possibilty is wire has been damaged where it passes through the chasssis, a bulkhead or over a corner somewhere so again if you can isolate the area by measuring the voltage at different parts of the circuit you will eventually find the fault.

It is also possible there is an internal fault in the battery so do measure the battery volts as well when the fault occurs on both the posts and clamps. Also check you can measure 12volts from +ve to the vehicle chassis.

Good Luck.


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## 91929

From experience with batteries (50 years) they dont have intermittent faults. They go flat & can be recharged. They go bust and stay bust.
More possible is a connection fault to any battery

Or as it is a more complex fault a 'dry joint' (or in lay mans terms a bad connection, or series of same)


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## legend

I've not been able to re-create the fault all afternoon!
At the moment it is working correctly.
It is now warm and dry - perhaps a factor.
I will keep trying it
Hopefully the rain will come next week and it may show a problem again.
I would like to re-create the fault so that if I make an alteration and it goes I know what the problem was.
I will start with the leisure battery to earth connectoin.

Regards


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## Brambles

PamNPete,
All due respect, but I actually have a battery sitting next to me just now with an intermittent fault. If I press down on the negative post it works and if not it don't, so I can only summise the lead bar connecting to the cell plates is cracked. How I have no idea as lead is pretty maliable, but can only summise someone was over zealous with a spanner on tightening the clamp.

I was just trying to help legend trace the fault which has been proving difficult.

legend, You may also find you have an inline 30Amp fuse (or similar value) in series with the battery connecting lead, close to the battery, and may also be worth checking the connections to it if one is fitted.
Jon.


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## Anonymous

PamNPete

If you have a battery with an internal fault ie intermittent connection internally then ditch it, lead acid batteries and sparks do not mix, can be quite dangerous.

KenS


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## Brambles

Hi KenS,
Think you meant your post to be addressed to me -- It goes back to Lucus next week as it is still under warranty and they have said they will replace it.
Jon.


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## Anonymous

Brambles & PamNPete

Sorry , I should have gone to Specsavers  

Ken S


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## oldun

Most insurance companies ask you how many seats you have with seat belts. Carrying more people than than will probably void your insurance - please check with your insurer.

Also it is not true to say that because something is law in the UK you will be OK abroad.

Fall foul of the law abroad and you will be clobbered. The Police will enforce the law in that country, not the UK law.


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