# Payload (groan) yet again - Hymer B544



## LittleGreyCat

What is the minimum acceptable payload?
[Parts also posted to Hymer group]
A reasonably large male could weigh 80Kg (roughly 12.5 stone).
Five blokes in a 5 berth van could therefore weigh 400Kg.
More than that, the Hymer B544 S is a six seater (seats with seatbelts) so you could get six people in.
Am I missing something?
Is the B 544 S on the 3500Kg chassis potentially overloaded if all the seats are occupied by adult males?
Especially if the occupants are "well built" 
At first glance this seems daft!

A Hymer owner tells me:
"There would appear to be two types of B544 the B starline and the B classic. (I'm looking at my models book for 2001 hymers). Not much difference in layout between the two.B544 starline is 5.98m long and the classic is 6.06m long. Then with in each model there are two chassis variants - the fiat al-ko ducato 14 chassis and the fiat al-ko ducato 18 chassis. Its not very visually obvious what the difference is but the 18 seems have a bigger max payload of up to 800kg over the 14 at a max of 500kg."

From the plate it seems the van we are thinking of buying has the lower rated chassis. 
500Kg seems a reasonable payload but there is cabin aircon and satellite dish added, plus a rear bike carrier.
We will be asking for the vehicle to be weighed, but at what payload should we start to reconsider?


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## RichardnGill

we have aprox 500kgs payload which we manage fine with. There are 2 adults and 2 kids and a Big dog in the van.

If the payload was less than 400kgs I would make enquires to see if you could upgrade to a higher vehicle weight just incase.


Richard...


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## javea

Just found this topic on return from the weighbridge and a bit of a shock!

Hymer handbook says that the weight of the B544SL (2007 make) is 3070kg including driver, 90% full fuel tank and full water tank. 

Mine weighed in at 3380 without water, but including an Oyster dish at 17kg, extra battery at 25 kg and the wife, she won't admit her weight but lets say 80 kgs (she doesn't read these threads!), and about 75% fuel and a towbar at about 20kg. So it seems that the basic vehicle weighs a lot more than the manual quotes.

That doesn't leave much for payload once the water tank is full so I am going to have it uprated to 3850. SVTech have quoted £200 plus VAT which doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Can't understand why the tax then goes down by £15.


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## asabrush

How does "uprating "work?

Does this mean you can carry more weight?
Ta ,Rossco


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## carol

Payload is difficult, as most people add things on - firstly at order (or if bought from a dealer knew, he may well have added on those 'extras' he thinks he can sell easily - and they all add up..

We were originally going to order the 3.5t Rapido at Dusseldorf, but then when we added on things like awning, extra leisure battery, automatic engine and 3L is heavier so more kgs there as well, omnivent, etc., etc., and we knew we were going to fix a gas tank....we did some sums at the Dealers and plumbed for the Maxi chassis.

All that was BEFORE we knew there was NO spare wheel, and we asked the Dealer to order that, and another 25+kgs is added.

We went to the Weighbridge on our way out, loaded for two weeks, plus most of what we would take with us for two months, a bit less tinned food - and we really surprised when it was weighed (we wanted to do it to then phone Michellin to get the correct tyre pressures). and strangely, well strangely to me, we only need 65 in front and 60 in the rear....(I expected the rear to be higher...) 

I think, it must be worth ANYONE buying a used motorhome from a dealer, or indeed privately, to take it to a nearby weighbridge....it is better to be careful and know in advance you can't carry those extra four people that you had belts for....

Anyone remember the Sunday Telegraph article a few years back about the 6 berth Kontiki that you couldn't take six people in, (2+4 kids!) not enough payload, BEFORE you put anything else in it....

Manufacturers, are now now adding the spare wheel, WHICH I THINK IS ESSENTIAL...having only ever had blowouts in our motorhomes.... to save on costs and payloads and to try to fool us all.

Carol


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## javea

asabrush said:


> How does "uprating "work?
> 
> Does this mean you can carry more weight?
> Ta ,Rossco


Hi Rosco,

Yes, I will be able to legally run at up to a maximum overall vehicle weight of 3850kgs instead of 3500kgs, ie. an increase of 350kgs.

Regards,

Mike

Edit. According to SVTech they will send me a form on which I have to enter some vehicle details, they then arrange the replating of the vehicle with the DVLA who then issue a new registration document and it seems to be as simple as that. No vehicle modifications required as the ALKO chassis is well able to carry this weight and more if necessary. Just realised that part of the weight increase over the quoted manual figure may be due to the fact that the MH is fitted with the 3.0 litre engine which obviously weighs more that the 2.3


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## Grizzly

javea03730 said:


> Yes, I will be able to legally run at up to a maximum overall vehicle weight of 3850kgs instead of 3500kgs, ie. an increase of 350kgs.


Mike...does this mean that you will have to buy a Go Box etc in Austria or will the fact that nothing has been actually done to your MH mean that you are still technically the same as you are now -ie under 3500kg ? How can anyone know when you are running fully laden - and therefore above 3500 or empty and so below 3500 ?

Forgive ignorance - I always thought that an upgrade meant that they actually did something to strengthen the chassis.

G :?


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## CaptainBligh

javea03730 said:


> asabrush said:
> 
> 
> 
> How does "uprating "work?
> 
> Does this mean you can carry more weight?
> Ta ,Rossco
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Rosco,
> 
> Yes, I will be able to legally run at up to a maximum overall vehicle weight of 3850kgs instead of 3500kgs, ie. an increase of 350kgs.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mike
> 
> Edit. According to SVTech they will send me a form on which I have to enter some vehicle details, they then arrange the replating of the vehicle with the DVLA who then issue a new registration document and it seems to be as simple as that. No vehicle modifications required as the ALKO chassis is well able to carry this weight and more if necessary. Just realised that part of the weight increase over the quoted manual figure may be due to the fact that the MH is fitted with the 3.0 litre engine which obviously weighs more that the 2.3
Click to expand...

Hi, I have also had to investigate the pay load issue with my Hymer B644. Spoke to the owner of a new Hymer who had paid Hymer in Germany for an upgraded chassis and then discovered that there was a shortfall on the new payload. The service manager at Hymer stated that any extras such as Drivers door, blinds all came of the payload. However he was able to prove that the figures still did not add up, so Hymer agreed to pay for a further upgrade to his chassis.

I have been quoted by TVAC - £270+vat for 3850kg and a further £340+vat for upgraded suspension to 4100kg. Please can you advise the contact details for SVTech.

Regards

Cptn Bligh :brave:


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## Grizzly

Presumably you also have to pay a higher excise duty for a vehicle over 3500kg in UK ? Is the driving licence the same ?

G


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## javea

Grizzly said:


> Presumably you also have to pay a higher excise duty for a vehicle over 3500kg in UK ? Is the driving licence the same ?
> 
> G


Hi Grizzly,

Strangely the excise duty reduces by £15!.

As far as licence is concerned I took my test many moons ago(too many!) so I am alright for two and a half years when I will have to either downplate to 3500kgs or take what appears to be a very stringent medical examination. Will take that decision nearer the time.

Regards,

Mike


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## javea

Contact at SVTech is Gareth Marsh on 01772 621800 - extremely knowledgeable and pleasant chap.

Website www.svtech.co.uk


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## 113016

I have a Hymer Tramp and it was plated by Hymer at 3900kg, however the VIN plate and the reg docs say 3500kg
It is on a Fiat Maxi Chassis and I presumed that it was down rated at point of first registration (or taxed at 3500kg for convenience.
I have been in contact with T. V. A. L. at Leyland and as I already have Airide fitted, they can up rate to 4100kg without any problem and this is just a paper exercise. Price is £270 plus VAT.
If I did not have Airide, it would be uprated to 3850KG.
Funny, though as the leave springs seem to have been uprated at the factory as 3 leaves are fitted on each spring. I think this is why the Hymer plate says 3900kg.
I am still pondering as I do not know what FUTURE road tax implications will change things, however the GO Box may not hinder me as I usually go the other way in Europe.
edit.
The road tax then becomes Private Heavy Goods


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## Grizzly

javea03730 said:


> Strangely the excise duty reduces by £15!.
> Mike


How odd !

Thanks Mike, you've made that much clearer. Another chunk of motorhome law has dropped into place in my brain.

G


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## cliver

*Implications for upgrading to 3859Kg*

Interesting thread, and many thanks for that.

As a newcomer to Motorhomes, and in the process of contacting SV Tech for upgrade info on my Pilote Galaxy 270, plated at 2400Kg. I am intrigued what the implications are to having the chassis plated at 3850Kg.

1. Driving licence is not a problem, passed in 1974!

2. Road Tax understood as far as the reduction in annual cost.

3. What other implications are there? Speed, Ferry crossings, use in London (though not planning to go there), Tolls in Europe, and any other potential changes that would be introduced if we upgraded?

Any advice would be warmly received,

Thanks Clive


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## peedee

*Re: Implications for upgrading to 3859Kg*



cliver said:


> 3. What other implications are there? Speed, Ferry crossings, use in London (though not planning to go there), Tolls in Europe, and any other potential changes that would be introduced if we upgraded?
> 
> Any advice would be warmly received,
> 
> Thanks Clive


Smaller continental motorhomes (7 metres or less) are mostly built on 3.5Kgms chassis because driving licences, unlike ours, have always restricted the weight that can be driven without further testing. 3.5kgms is the cut off point for most of the rules for motorhomes above which weight you should be complying with the HGV laws of that particular country rather than motor car rules. It does result in increased tolls in some but not all. It can mean your speed is restricted and in some cases you should not be overtaking on dual lane carriageways. I believe the above to be correct but must admit to finding it very confusing especially when it comes to HGV (lorry) bans on entering towns and the different laws in the different countries? I always try and check the laws for the countries I intend to visit and make a note of them before I go.

I would be interested in seeing further comment, I think Boff has posted on this subject before so maybe he will post again or point us to his earlier posts?

peedee


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## cliver

Hi Peedee,

This is obviously quite a 'deep' subject, but I would like to get to the bottom of it, and gain a much better understanding before making any decision to upgrade to 3859Kgs.

By the way, my current plating is 3400Kg and not 2400Kg as stated


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## 38Rover

I find the whole question of weights confusing.I have a Burstner Solano T700 3100 kg with a 400 kg pay load giving 3500 max.
Is the 3500kg just a figure to keep under the magical 3500kg or does it really mean something.I am sure manufactures must know that many many motorhomes will be overloaded and allow for this in the design, within reason does it matter other than you may be breaking the law which sets some licence limits at 3500kg?I am ok until 2013 passed test in 1960.
I have never had my vehicle weighed when loaded but I feel it is often over the 3500kg ie full tanks all round, spare, roof A/C, Sat TV,tinned food,usual locker junk etc.the vehicle has 4 belted seats so in theory the passengers alone could weigh in at 500kg but I have never had more than 2 say 225 kg ( big people).
I have never noticed any adverse effect when loaded save drop off in performance on hills.Brakes steering roadholding performance all seem fine.
Colin Frier


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## Vennwood

Just a note of caution here for those of us that have a "slight problem with weight" A friend of ours had an accident in his MH and the insurance company actually weighed the vehicle and refused to pay for the damage as he was overweight.

This was a real worry for me on our previous MH as I was happy as a lamb in ignorance and then weighed it out of curiosity following our friends mishap and horror or horrors discovered we were some 474 kgs overweight. There was no way I could shed all that weight and still be happy so the MH had to go. When looking around at many of the published payload figures I often wonder how many of us are driving around overweight......

Remember, awnings, aircon (including cab aircon), extra batteries, chargers, inverters, personal items such as BBQ's, bikes, gas bottles, cutlery, clothing, dogs, etc. etc. all come off the payload.

Just a thought

Pete


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## carol

Well I was just going to reply saying insurance will be a problem in the event of an accident - when I read the next reply...so I won't go there now.

Implications as I know them:

over 3.5t you to have speed considerations (Germany and France I think) as you become classed as a lorry in some cases...but not exactly sure of this one

Many towns/villages in France do restrict mh's to 3.5t and under....what I still don't get though, is our Rapido (is normally, if bought in France and Germany downgraded to the 3.5t) but does anyone just looking know we are 4.25? yes 16in wheels as opposed to 15in....but to the normal observer?

Anyway, ferry implications are generally on length - not weight... so that is the difference there.

I always had a feeling as our previous Hymer had been downplated from the 3.85 to 3.5 by the original German owner due to license reasons, and I suspected we could on our two month trips have been overweight, due to the many extras he had added....I didn't go to a weighbridge. Over the intervening years, weight has become much more of an issue with insurance companies taking notice of it, as well as the motoring press.

So as I have said earlier in other threads, when ordering our motorhome last September, I realised that adding this and that, was pushing the weight to near it's max without adding us and our bits and pieces....so we opted then for the maxi chassis, I wanted to have a clear conscious....

The first trip away for a couple of weeks, we stopped at the public weighbridge just off the M5 at Tiverton, and drove up, no one else around, and one of the guys said to me, having asked where we lived, that should we have a problem, he could put any excess into his van and take it back for us....he didn't live too far away from us - don't know about making you worried before..... but if you are over weight you are not allowed to drive off until you have off-loaded the extra weight.....

So we drove on to the weighbridge, front wheels, all wheels and then rear wheels only and we have still got over 450+kgs...and that made us both feel relieved....as it does therefore allow for that extra booze we tend to all pile in on our way home, and still be legal.

I do think, that anyone reading this thread, who has not been and weighed their motorhome, should go, loaded as for a trip, with water, full tank, gas etc., and see the damage, if you are at all concerned, get someone to drive with you in their vehicle, to offload any overweight items...and then go home and think about your options.

Best of luck - head in sand - is no longer acceptable - death of yourselves or someone else could be the outcome in an accident...and no one would want that on their conscience.

Carol


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## peedee

Vennwood said:


> When looking around at many of the published payload figures I often wonder how many of us are driving around overweight......
> 
> Remember, awnings, aircon (including cab aircon), extra batteries, chargers, inverters, personal items such as BBQ's, bikes, gas bottles, cutlery, clothing, dogs, etc. etc. all come off the payload.
> 
> Just a thought
> 
> Pete


Your not the only one Pete, you only have to look at some vans with scooter racks on and you know they are pushing it. I am surprised many more of us are not stoppped but if you asked the question on here, "Have you ever been stopped and weighed?" I bet there would be a nil response.

There is another thread running>here< also about weights.

peedee


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## sprokit

*Payload*



> I do think, that anyone reading this thread, who has not been and weighed their motorhome, should go, loaded as for a trip, with water, full tank, gas etc., and see the damage, if you are at all concerned, get someone to drive with you in their vehicle, to offload any overweight items...and then go home and think about your options.


Carol

If you are stopped and weighed (for instance on mobile weighing plates) whilst going to a weighbridge to check your weight, it is a defence in law to be proceeding to the nearest weighbridge by road from the place of loading to check weigh a vehicle  BUT, it must be the nearest by road from the place you loaded at! - if it is overweight,  then you are allowed to return to the place of loading to remove the excess - i.e. you don't need a friend with you to take the excess weight back to your home. :wink:

Keith (Sprokit)


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## carol

Keith - I am only reiterating what I was told at the weighbridge, I know nothing of points of law. So passing on that information

Carol


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## javea

Thought you might all be interested about the experience with SCTech.

Form submitted on Friday of last week, fee paid late Friday so would not reach them until Monday. New plating certificate and application form to send to DVLA, plus certificate to submit the them, received today Wednesday.

Think this can be rated as first class service!

Mike


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## davesport

My Hymer's maximum laden weight was 3900kg with 1850kg on the front axle & 2200 on the rear. Fully loaded with two kayaks, three bicycles, full fuel & water I was 180kg overweight 8O 

I ditched the genny & drained off most of the water. Leason learned for me.

SC Tech can raise the MLM from its existing level to 4000kg. Not a huge difference but enough for me not to be overweight if I pay attention to what I'm doing.

My question is this. If the sum of the maximum axle loads is 4050kg why then is the vehicle plated at 3900kg ? 

Dave.


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## sprokit

*Payload*



davesport said:


> My Hymer's maximum laden weight was 3900kg with 1850kg on the front axle & 2200 on the rear. Fully loaded with two kayaks, three bicycles, full fuel & water I was 180kg overweight 8O
> 
> I ditched the genny & drained off most of the water. Leason learned for me.
> 
> SC Tech can raise the MLM from its existing level to 4000kg. Not a huge difference but enough for me not to be overweight if I pay attention to what I'm doing.
> 
> My question is this. If the sum of the maximum axle loads is 4050kg why then is the vehicle plated at 3900kg ?
> 
> Dave.


Hi Dave

Very simple answer - it's to allow for distribution of loads - there are very few vehicles (in fact to my knowledge - none) where the axle weights add up to the gross permitted weight, it always comes out as more. :roll:

If you think of the vehicle as a seesaw - what comes off the back adds weight to the front and vice-versa. 8) This was also discussed here http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=48532

Keith (Sprokit)


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## davesport

Keith, thanks for your reply.

I read the other post you linked to as well. 

I'd lost track of all the stuff that's been accumulating in the van. I carry a lot of stuff & when I started thinking about the cumulative weight of this plus all the accessories the :idea: came suddenly on. 

Because the MLM of my van's 3900 I never for a minute imagined I'd exceed this. As I said, leason learned for me.

Many thanks, Dave.


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## davesport

Sorry, double post


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## Vennwood

Hi Dave,

I'm sure other more knowledgeable souls on here will correct me (Swift, John Cross etc.) but isn't there a 5% tolerance allowed on max weight. In many of the MH specifications they mention + or - 5% so with your 3900 this could allow you up to 4095 kgs and still remain legal - right?


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## 113016

Vennwood said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I'm sure other more knowledgeable souls on here will correct me (Swift, John Cross etc.) but isn't there a 5% tolerance allowed on max weight. In many of the MH specifications they mention + or - 5% so with your 3900 this could allow you up to 4095 kgs and still remain legal - right?


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, sorry no tolerance.
Vosa can at their discretion, but no legal requirement to give any at all.


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## sprokit

Grath said:


> Vennwood said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Dave,
> 
> I'm sure other more knowledgeable souls on here will correct me (Swift, John Cross etc.) but isn't there a 5% tolerance allowed on max weight. In many of the MH specifications they mention + or - 5% so with your 3900 this could allow you up to 4095 kgs and still remain legal - right?
> 
> 
> 
> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, sorry no tolerance.
> Vosa can at their discretion, but no legal requirement to give any at all.
Click to expand...

Beat me to it - there is no tolerance apart from that allowed due to the Code of Practice for Weighing ( http://tinyurl.com/6xz2ea ) - simple answer - don't risk it 

Keith (Sprokit)


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## davesport

If it's a "paper exercise" for SV Tech to accomplish the increase in payload for the princely sum of £200 + VAT. IE no physical changes to the vehicle. Is it possible for a layman to achieve the same result minus the expense ? via an application to the DVLA perhaps ? 

I am Scottish you know & don't like paying for ANYTHING I unnecessarily  

Dave.


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## sprokit

davesport said:


> If it's a "paper exercise" for SV Tech to accomplish the increase in payload for the princely sum of £200 + VAT. IE no physical changes to the vehicle. Is it possible for a layman to achieve the same result minus the expense ? via an application to the DVLA perhaps ?
> 
> I am Scottish you know & don't like paying for ANYTHING I unnecessarily
> 
> Dave.


Try getting anything from DVLA, you've got no chance :twisted:

The reason you need to go through someone like SvTech is that they have already done all the calculations for the various combinations of chassis, suspension, tyres etc. 8)

They will tell you the weight you can increase to without any alterations or what you need to uprate if you want to go to a higher weight (e.g. replace 8 ply tyres with 10 ply tyres). 

They also issue a new plate and a certificate, which you will need to prove to the enforcement authorities that the vehicle has been uprated, and, which you will need to present to the DVLA if you want to change your tax class from PLG to Private HGV (being Scots, there's a saving here - Private HGV is only £165, a slight saving over PLG road tax  )

So go on Dave - be brave - get it uprated properly OR, having re-read the posts, is it really worth it for 100 kg?

Keith (Sprokit)
Also Scots on my mothers side and living very close to the border!!


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## davesport

Hiyya Keith. I'm already taxed as a private HGV, which is a £20.00 PA saving. SV have the invoice in the post to me as we speak  so it will all be kosher & above board. The word "discretion" seems to be missing from the vocabulary of those in positions of authority & power there days, so I'm not taking the chance.

Interestingly Al-ko have initially told me that upgrading to 4000kg is possible but by replacing all six of the torsion springs in the back axle. This is a straightforward job but vastly more expensive than going down the SVTech route. The gentleman I spoke to at Al-ko is making enquiries with Al-ko in Germany to see if further up-rating is possible.

I'll post here when I get his reply.

Many thanks for all the helpfull & informative replies. Dave.


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## sprokit

> The word "discretion" seems to be missing from the vocabulary of those in positions of authority & power......


Mmmmm - that would include me then 8O :twisted:

I'd be very interested in Al-Ko's reply, as I've come across several Al-Ko chassis (on Ducato based vehicle) plated at more than 4,000 kg - if memory serves the highest was 4,300 kg on 2 axles.

As a matter of interest, what wheels / tyres are fitted to your vehicle? Simply fitting 10 ply tyres would allow you to have the vehicle uprated to a higher Gross Weight, there again the Scot kicks in :wink: - 10 ply tyres are a shade more expensive than 8 ply 

Keith (Sprokit)


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## davesport

Hi Keith.

My tyres are Michelin Camping XC 215/75 R16C.

Load index 113/111Q 

Tread 2 plies polyester
Tread 3 plies steel
Sidewall 2 plies polyester

Load index 113/111 which equals 1150 Kg single or 1090 Kg dual.

I took SV's comments at face value & assumed that 4000 Kg was going to be the maximum available. If there's more spare capacity either through fitting better tyres or helper springs he did'nt mention this on the phone. The way things stand on extended trips I'll be at or near the maximum payload with nothing in reserve. I'll speak to SVTech again on Monday for full clarification.

One thing that puzzled me about the result from the weighbridge was that my front axle was 30Kg over its limit at 1880 Kg. Virtually all of the weight we carry is in the rear half of the van, a lot of it behind the rear axle. The major factor at the front is the fuel & water tank which I thought even when full should have been well within the design limitations. Obviously not  

I wonder if the vehicles plated at over 4000 Kg were based on the Merc chassis ?

Please don't take my remark about discretion personally :lol: It's not meant that way  I've got a chip on my shoulder about everything in general & nothing in particular IYSWIM  My display name should really be "Victor Meldrew" but I think someone else beat me to it :twisted: 

Best regards Dave.


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## sprokit

> My tyres are Michelin Camping XC 215/75 R16C.
> 
> Load index 113/111Q
> 
> Tread 2 plies polyester
> Tread 3 plies steel
> Sidewall 2 plies polyester
> 
> Load index 113/111 which equals 1150 Kg single or 1090 Kg dual.
> 
> I took SV's comments at face value & assumed that 4000 Kg was going to be the maximum available. If there's more spare capacity either through fitting better tyres or helper springs he did'nt mention this on the phone. The way things stand on extended trips I'll be at or near the maximum payload with nothing in reserve. I'll speak to SVTech again on Monday for full clarification.


Hi Dave

Strange - your tyres are the same size and load index as mine, yet my GVW is now 4,100 kg with the rear axle increased to the maximum of 2,300 kg. But, I do have Air-rides fitted to the rear, wonder if that makes any difference :?: The front axle remains the same at 1,850 kg.

The limiting factor on my Hymer (Ducato Maxi chassis) was the tyres, if I'd been prepared to change them to a higher ply rating (thereby increasing the load index) I could have gone higher. 8)

I wouldn't worry too much about being 30 kg over on the front - assuming your water tank is near the front, it's fairly easy to get rid of the excess if someone wants to be so pedantic that they won't allow you to to move without losing the excess. As long as it doesn't make your gross excessive I can't see a problem. :wink:

I'd certainly have a word with SvTech, specifically asking what I'd need to do to take the weights, axles and gross, to a higher maximum (I'd suggest 1,900 front and 2,300 rear, with a gross of 4,100 kg as a starting point). At least that will give you a bit to play with.

Let me, and the forum, know how you get on, the weight problem is usually of interest to everyone (unless of course you drive one of them big bus type things  ).

Keith (Sprokit)


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## davesport

Hi Keith.

I've just spoken to SVTech regards my vehicle weights again.

Gary assures me that I'll have gone as far as possible once up-plated to 4000Kg. There's no going any higher. He did tell me that another company used to make a completely different rear axle that took up to 4200 Kg. This is no longer available. 

I'm still waiting for a reply from Al-ko UK. 

Regards Dave.


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