# New Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!



## 1happy

Having looked at how disjointed the threads about this issue have become.
I have taken into consideration friendly advice from moderators and have decided to try to bring together all the related threads.
A search for threads produces *many results * but the following will do for a start. :roll: 
I shall be directing all postees? on any of my threads to this one!! & sincerely hope this appeases any critics! 
To other sufferers I say I hope this suits you also, as some where put updates or check the latest news!
I will add some more tomorrow...But its late now and still lots to do!

*1st thread on this issue 2007-03-13 .. March for heavens sake!!*
*New Fiat Ducato ? water in Engine compartment*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-25069-fiat.html

1st is Thread topic....2nd number of Replies......3rd Views...Then a link

*Water Ingress - new Fiat / Peugeot - collate all faults here.....400..19968*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-31287-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Poll for-Water ingress!-size of problem NEW Fiat-Peugeot.....107...5337 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32158-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Re:-Online Petition Fiat-Peugeot Water Ingress to Engine!!!...38.... 1578 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32158-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Fiat Water Ingress - Fiat Solution....40..... 1925*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-34008-fiat.html+water+ingress

*18,500 Members...Can we make a difference???????????..22......... 817 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-33770-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

**** Alert***Fiat Chassis Warranty Details.....14....1203 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32549-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Calling all 2007 Fiat and Peugeot Rust Buckets... 43.... 1297*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-33523-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*I do not think the rust on the new BOXER is just cosmetic....6..... 482*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-33373-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Fiat X2/50 - Clouds Of White Smoke !!!!!... 51... 1713 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32786-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Swift Bolero 630PR Water ingress into engine bay....22..... 1129 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-31223-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Water Ingress - New Fiat/Peugeot etc... 5.... 408 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-31557-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Peugeot Boxer - Firestorm 140 handed over on 24.5.07......4.... 363 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-31413-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*The Prime minister & Fiat/Peugeot Fiasco "Call to arms"*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-34474-days0-orderasc-0.html

*FIAT Recall - Brakes and Water* 
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-310442.html

*PS Please feel free to post updates etc & add your own links to related threads!*

*Brilliant videos on youtube *

1st 




2nd 




Couldn't resist adding this one lighthearted humour goes a long way!

*Join S.W.E.A.R. Today - the coolest club in town*
*HERE>>* http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-34626-swear.html

*I wonder is there an award category for side splitters* :?: :lol:

*Here's hoping Fiat and Peugeot get organised soon* :roll: 
Many thanks 1happy

*A few more to add to the list :-*

*Fiat X250 windscreen- you will not believe this !*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-30546.html

*Fiat X250 windscreen guttering fault*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-29991.html

*New Peugeot with free RUST!!!*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32848-free.html+rust

*If anyone wants threads added to the above please PM me.
Also hope the above help people who may wish to see earlier threads​*
*Thread Added 
13th Nov 2007*
*Fiat bodge up for water ingress does not work.*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-35991.html


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## 1happy

*Collate all Threads & Faults on Water ingress/Rust &*

Hi just to say.
Petitions do work!
Re this recent petition,posted on here & signed by us and many other ex service personnel.
The Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association, Mole Valley Council for change of use to the property at 36 Grays Lane, Ashtead. 
Re HERE>> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Headley/?ref=headley

*Motorhomers please sign & "show your support" on the Fiat/Peugeot petition. *

HERE>> Petition address removed as now closed
Many thanks 1happy


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## Grizzly

Two more:

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-30546.html

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-29991.html

G


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## carolgavin

*More water torture!!*

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32848-free.html+rust

And another one great to see petition is up in the 90s now  Would be great to hit the hundred


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## 1happy

*Collate all Threads & Faults on Water ingress/Rust &*

Hi & thanks to Grizzly And carolgavin.
I hoped people would add own favourite threads.
If you would like (or i will if you want me to) to put a link directing future responses here?
RSVP or I can happily leave as is!

I still believe this problem is not getting solved!! 8O 
Signatures on the petition indicate unsuspecting buyers are still collecting new vans with this fault!!!!  
*We still need signatures to show the manufacturers that their response 8O is just not good enough * :evil:

1happy


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## carolgavin

Has anyone actually had a fix done by Peugeot or Fiat that actually does what it is supposed to ie prevent water entering engine from where it is not supposed to enter? I have become aware of may people reading through the threads who have had fix done but it does not work. Would any of you especially Peugeot ones be willing to talk to me about it?

PM me for details!!!


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## 1happy

*Collate all Threads & Faults on Water ingress/Rust &*

Hi Carol.
No 78 of the petition reports not only major leaks but major engine problems,don't know how you would contact him though,unless he's a member on here?
Plenty of other signatures with Peugeot problems,
Wishing you luck and responses/PMs to your appeal above!
Anyone who wants to sign
Petition HERE>> http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot
Cheers 1happy


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## 1happy

*Collate all Threads & Faults on Water ingress/Rust &*

Hi All.
*Does anyone know anything about a Fiat satisfaction survey carried out a couple of weeks ago.* :?: 
Apparently about the fiat concerned :?: 
Apparently with low scores on a 1 to 10 basis :?: 
only ask because someone has mentioned it on the petition
http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot
Thanks 1happy
PS carolgavin 100 signatures now :!: 
But hoping for more obviously :wink:


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## urbanracer

Over 2 weeks ago I had a lot of positive fedback fom Peugeot and one of their dealers,they were going to reseal with some new rubbers[First ordered over a month ago since that promise]and fit new engine cover.

Still waiting to be booked in, looks like its all gone quiet again.

Will give it a few days then start chasing up again.

Got my Taylor made extended cab cover,it covers the the screen and vents so staying dry when parked up,should never had to buy this to cover up Peugeots problems!


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## geraldandannie

If anyone wants to see (visually) what the problem is:

:: photo 1 - water collecting in scuttle ::

:: photo 2 - water dripping onto engine ::

:: photo 3 - rusty injectors ::

:: horrendous YouTube video ::

Gerald


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## sallytrafic

geraldandannie said:


> If anyone wants to see (visually) what the problem is:
> 
> :: photo 1 - water collecting in scuttle ::
> 
> :: photo 2 - water dripping onto engine ::
> 
> :: photo 3 - rusty injectors ::
> 
> :: horrendous YouTube video ::
> 
> Gerald


So whats yours like Gerald? Personally I wouldn't trust a FIAT fix unless its a one piece scuttle which I think unlikely. I would use a nonsetting black mastic. Sikaflex do one but there are cheaper available. This area will suffer temperature extremes and the one thing that the nonsetting mastics seem to have over ordinary sealants is they stick like the proverbial. Most sealants are not flexible enough or if they are flexible don't stick well enough to plastics. Does anyone know what the scuttle plastic is PET? PVDC? HDPE?


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## geraldandannie

sallytrafic said:


> So whats yours like Gerald?


I had a little look yesterday, and understand the problem a lot more now. There was some light rusting on parts of the engine around the injectors, but it doesn't look like the photo linked to above. The 2-piece scuttle is a recipe for disaster, and the 2 parts don't seem to be stuck together at all. There's a huge hole (about an inch dia with take-off pipe leading down inside the front wheel arch) at the driver's side of the scuttle, which I presume is supposed to take the water away.

I'm going to wash the flies off the front tonight, and we'll see :?

Don't know what the plastic is - it's very flexible, a bit like the stuff they make internal panels (e.g. dash) from. I think it's very soft, and will easily be cut / trimmed with a knife.

Gerald


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## 96299

geraldandannie said:


> sallytrafic said:
> 
> 
> 
> So whats yours like Gerald?
> 
> 
> 
> I had a little look yesterday, and understand the problem a lot more now. There was some light rusting on parts of the engine around the injectors, but it doesn't look like the photo linked to above. The 2-piece scuttle is a recipe for disaster, and the 2 parts don't seem to be stuck together at all. There's a huge hole (about an inch dia with take-off pipe leading down inside the front wheel arch) at the driver's side of the scuttle, which I presume is supposed to take the water away.
> 
> I'm going to wash the flies off the front tonight, and we'll see :?
> 
> Don't know what the plastic is - it's very flexible, a bit like the stuff they make internal panels (e.g. dash) from. I think it's very soft, and will easily be cut / trimmed with a knife.
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

That scuttle is indeed a recipe for disaster.I`ve been saying all along that the lap is totaly the wrong way round for water to run away easily .It actually collects at the lap joint which holds water all the time.A kid must of designed it surely :roll:

steve


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## 1happy

*Collate all Threads & Faults on Water ingress/Rust &*



> That scuttle is indeed a recipe for disaster.I`ve been saying all along that the lap is totaly the wrong way round for water to run away easily .It actually collects at the lap joint which holds water all the time.A kid must of designed it surely


*Or*
A company that can get away with poor design & defects in the almost certain knowledge that There is practically nothing anyone can do to stop them.
however they may be underestimating the power of the internet!!
Please keep contributing to this thread & keeping it to the fore so all members and newbies see it!!
The petition is producing some interesting feedback & keeping this in the public domain can only help to speed up Fiat,Peugeot & citroen to act.
Signatures to the petition HERE>> http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot


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## 1happy

*Collate all Threads & Faults on Water ingress/Rust &*

Just out of interest has anyone had an *engineers report *on their vehicle about this "fault" :?: 
If so could they post on here or PM me :!: 
I do have a reason for asking & understand if no one responds just think it might be helpful if there is an engineer out there who has identified the "problems" from a professional angle.
*Anyone* :?:


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## 1happy

*Re: Collate ALL Threads & Faults on Water ingress/Rust &*

*In light of recent thread topic by a member here goes attempt No 2 it is up to everyone if you want to post here or not,but I have tried!*
Having looked at how disjointed the threads about this issue have become.
I have taken into consideration friendly advice from moderators and have decided to try to bring together all the related threads.
A search for threads produces *many results * but the following will do for a start. :roll: 
I shall be directing all postees? on any of my threads to this one!! & sincerely hope this appeases any critics! 
To other sufferers I say I hope this suits you also, as some where put updates or check the latest news!
I will add some more tomorrow...But its late now and still lots to do!

1st is Thread topic....2nd number of Replies......3rd Views...Then a link

*Water Ingress - new Fiat / Peugeot - collate all faults here.....400..19968*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-31287-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Poll for-Water ingress!-size of problem NEW Fiat-Peugeot.....107...5337 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32158-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Re:-Online Petition Fiat-Peugeot Water Ingress to Engine!!!...38.... 1578 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32158-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Fiat Water Ingress - Fiat Solution....40..... 1925*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-34008-fiat.html+water+ingress

*18,500 Members...Can we make a difference???????????..22......... 817 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-33770-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

**** Alert***Fiat Chassis Warranty Details.....14....1203 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32549-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Calling all 2007 Fiat and Peugeot Rust Buckets... 43.... 1297*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-33523-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*I do not think the rust on the new BOXER is just cosmetic....6..... 482*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-33373-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Fiat X2/50 - Clouds Of White Smoke !!!!!... 51... 1713 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32786-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Swift Bolero 630PR Water ingress into engine bay....22..... 1129 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-31223-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Water Ingress - New Fiat/Peugeot etc... 5.... 408 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-31557-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Peugeot Boxer - Firestorm 140 handed over on 24.5.07......4.... 363 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-31413-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*PS Please feel free to post updates etc & add your own links to related threads!*

*Brilliant video also on youtube*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=34498

*Here's hoping Fiat and Peugeot get organised soon* :roll: 
Many thanks 1happy


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## carolgavin

Catherine could the mods not merge them all somehow then we could all stick to the one thread? Geraldandannie might know how. We could ask.


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## 1happy

I think would be a great Idea!
as long as it gets an appropriate title that encompasses the many issues!


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## carolgavin

OK babe gonna find myself a mod!! Only problem is what to call it! Something short and to the point methinks. Fiat/Peugeot water problems?
Fiat/Peugeot Water Torture? Fiat/Peugeot all faults?? New Fiat/Peugeot all faults??? No more ideas brain tired need c o l a! Anyone got better ideas???


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## geraldandannie

Hello! :wink: 

Merging threads, eh?  

We'll have a look at it - to see if it's possible.

Gerald


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## carolgavin

geraldandannie said:


> Hello! :wink:
> 
> Merging threads, eh?
> 
> We'll have a look at it - to see if it's possible.
> 
> Gerald


And as if by magic there you are. You know the service on this site is beyond compare :lol: ta gerald I actually forgot i was going to ask, too busy badgering son to pack for his trip to Belgium tomorrow, he leaves at 5:30am eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek!!!


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## 1happy

*Merging threads!!*



carolgavin said:


> OK babe gonna find myself a mod!! Only problem is what to call it! Something short and to the point methinks. Fiat/Peugeot water problems?
> Fiat/Peugeot Water Torture? Fiat/Peugeot all faults?? New Fiat/Peugeot all faults??? No more ideas brain tired need c o l a! Anyone got better ideas???


How about *"Fiat & Peugeot Faults" Reported & Recalls?* :?: 
Seem to cover many of the problems we are talking about? :roll:

PS Carol your lad will have the experience of a lifetime on this trip


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## carolgavin

*Re: Merging threads!!*



1happy said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK babe gonna find myself a mod!! Only problem is what to call it! Something short and to the point methinks. Fiat/Peugeot water problems?
> Fiat/Peugeot Water Torture? Fiat/Peugeot all faults?? New Fiat/Peugeot all faults??? No more ideas brain tired need c o l a! Anyone got better ideas???
> 
> 
> 
> How about *"Fiat & Peugeot Faults" Reported & Recalls?* :?:
> Seem to cover many of the problems we are talking about? :roll:
> 
> PS Carol your lad will have the experience of a lifetime on this trip
Click to expand...

I like it, I like it but if we sick in a slash *Fiat/Peugeot Faults 
Reported&Recalls * makes it shorter and hopefully easier to see what it's all about suppose we could stick in another slash between Reprted and recalls but doesn't read properly then


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## 1happy

Hi Carol.
The only reason I didn't put a slash was didn't know  if it affected "Google" searches...Because I am still thinking of the poor uninformed Newbies?
I will be pleased with what ever the Mods think is in the best interests etc
Cheers catherine


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## carolgavin

1happy said:


> Hi Carol.
> The only reason I didn't put a slash was didn't know  if it affected "Google" searches...Because I am still thinking of the poor uninformed Newbies?
> I will be pleased with what ever the Mods think is in the best interests etc
> Cheers catherine


Well you learn a new thing everyday! Good thinking batman, I never would even have thought of that in a million years, well done.


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## christopherobin

Hi girls

Can you add "The Motorhome Channel" to the threads.

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=34498

Chris :roll:


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## 1happy

*Collate ALL Threads & Faults on Water ingress/Rust &*

Hi Chris.
Done.
Cheers Catherine


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## geraldandannie

Hi, fellow Aquahomers :?

I've been taking advice from the more, ahem, _senior_ members of the mods team (i.e. ones wot have been doing this for longer than wot I have).

It seems merging threads is a little fraught, and the result of the merger will be all the posts in one thread, sorted by time and date of posting, which means they won't make sense 

What I did think of doing was "locking" the older threads. They're still referenced by the spendid "collate" post, but it means they won't be able to be 'resurrected' by people coming along later. This will keep the forums a bit clearer, but still make all of the posts accessible to anyone that wants to catch up.

I'll try to do that in the next day or so.

Gerald


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## geraldandannie

I've locked the thread from which this quote came, to attempt to gather our discussions in one place. It concerns my assertion that Swift's vans at the upcoming NEC show will have covers in place.



SwiftGroup said:


> Gerald,you guessed right all our product will have covers and I suspect other manufacturers will have them as well!


So, Peter - this cover was from Fiat, I would guess? It looks like the same one that Brownhills fitted to Bessie's van. So we can probably safely say that Fiat have these covers in production, and are issuing them to motorhome manufacturers (so they can sell more motorhomes at the NEC, presumably by being able to say "what water ingress problem? We have a cover - see?")

Cynical? Maybe, although realistic is nearer the mark. Meanwhile, vans that are sitting out in the rain with customers are still getting wet. They (we) don't matter, because we've already paid our money.

And this gutter / scuttle you're "testing" - how are you testing it? Are you throwing a bucket of water at the windscreen, and seeing what happens? Are you actually driving motorhomes around in the rain? And you say "there is no official fix" - is this new gutter / scuttle from Fiat? Again, I presume it must be.

Come on now, Peter - you've started to become a little coy on this issue. Have Fiat asked you not to say anything until your "tests" are complete?

By the way, I forgot to mention I have received a response from my dealer to my 2nd stroppy email. It goes:

_I have again been in contact with the FIAT group today, *and they have assured me that no problems will arise from the issue of water entering the engine bay*. Also our local FIAT agent has offered the option of contacting you directly to discuss any concerns you may have. If you would like to supply us with a contact number, we can pass this onto the FIAT dealer.

With reference to the bumper moulding we are more than happy to replace this at your convenience._

Strangely, I'm quite impressed with this so far. They're doing my legwork for me, which is what I'd expect them to do. I will give them my mobile number overnight, and see if Fiat contact me tomorrow. They (the dealer) have answered my emails, and _seem_ to be doing what they can to help me out.

It looks like my report on them, which was going to be good to excellent on pre-sales, through good on pickup, to appalling on realisation of the problem (when they'd stated it wasn't a problem) .. might now be starting to climb back up again. We'll see.

Gerald


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## GerryD

To the moderator, well done. It certainly seems sensible to join all comments on this issue into one discussion. 
To the members who are still awaiting a satsifactory outcome, have you considered approaching both the Camping Club and the Caravan Club? Surely they have a far stronger voice than yourselves, even collectively. There is still time to get the clubs to lobby on your behalf at the NEC. 
When I used the word recall, that is the wording given to me by the call handler at the Fiat helpline, I did not have to prompt him. He looked up my chassis number and informed me that Fiat had announced two recalls on Monday 8th October and that these would be notified to all dealers. If, however, Fiat have issued the notification in writing by post then the current round of post strikes would have delayed the notification getting to the dealer.
I would suggest that after that the main issue is the poor quality of the dealers and their lack of interest, certainly that is my experience and was borne out when I tried to get headlamp converters for the X250. In fact all dealers had an initial stock but most had lost them.
My furthet point is that whilst unsightly, water will not harm a deisel engine or any of it's ancillary parts. Any diesel will operate successfully under water provided it can get air. The injectors will not suffer and as the electrics are below 24volts, water will not cause them to short.
I would fully support a lobby of the clubs as they would have the experience and would put forward a strong voice not only on behalf of existing owners but also future owners.
I do sympathise with those that have had a long battle but would suggest that before you knock me again, those of you that have not contacted the Fial Helpline since monday should try again and see whether the information has changed. If it has then perhaps you can see light at the end of the tunnel. If it has not changed then perhaps I was given incorrect information and therefore I would need to make further enquiries.


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## christopherobin

GerryD

As far as I know they have all been contacted, but they rely on advertising
from the said companies. So you cant' blame them.

Quote from one:-
"We rely on advertising support from the industry. I hope you can understand that it's not in a position to mount a lobbying campaign against those whom such ventures rely on for support." 

You have a pm.

Chris


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## Zebedee

Gerry

I am trying not to knock you again as you ask, really I am, but some of what you say simply does not add up. You came in yesterday like a blunderbuss, knocking all of us quite severely, so maybe you should expect a little gentle retaliation. 8O

Ths morning you wrote



> When I used the word recall, that is the wording given to me by the call handler at the Fiat helpline, I did not have to prompt him. He looked up my chassis number and informed me that Fiat had announced two recalls on Monday 8th October and that these would be notified to all dealers. If, however, Fiat have issued the notification in writing by post then the current round of post strikes would have delayed the notification getting to the dealer.


I really don't think Fiat would use snail mail to inform their (probably) thousands of dealers throughout the whole of Europe, of this or any other potentially serious notification. The cost would be prohibitive for a start. The staff time involved in the process of sending out bulk mail could be much more usefully employed. There would be a ready made excuse of "we never received it" if any dealer was later taken to task for not responding properly.

No, I think not. A bulk email with a "Read receipt" request attached is virtually instantaneous, and the responses to the read receipt can be checked and actioned automatically. This may not be the precise scenario, but I would be very surprised if they do use the postal service, and if I were their chief accountant I would want to know why!

You end your message with,


> perhaps I was given incorrect information and therefore _I would need to make further enquiries._ (My italics for emphasis.).


Come on now Gerry. You were pretty damn sure of yourself yesterday when you were bashing us. Now when you are challenged to come up with the evidence you suddenly realise there might have been some mistake. :?: :?: :?:

On behalf of everyone concerned, can I ask you (since you started this) to make those further enquiries as quickly as possible and please let us know the result without delay. Please also include some means of verifying your information this time.

You are the one who succeeded yesterday in one phone call where the rest of us have failed with several dozen (maybe hundreds, collectively), so perhaps you would be kind enough to contact the same person again and ask for further confirmation.

You will be pleased to notice that I have knocked you rather less vociferously than you knocked us yesterday, but I have to say that some aspects of your message do appear rather dubious in written form. *If my interpretation of your latest post is simply another example of the misunderstandings which can so easily happen with remote messaging, then I apologise most sincerely and welcome you to the club. The "Fiat Sub-Aqua Club" that is.* :evil:

Regards

Dave

(Editted for speling. I'm KO with a pen, but on a keybroad?)


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## 96299

Right..New scuttle fitted,drove back from dealers in the pouring rain last tuesday and............the engine is all full of water again, No supprise there then,just what I expected to be honest.This is all such a joke at the moment it is bordering on laughable. :? 

steve


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## ICDSUN

GerryD said:


> My furthet point is that whilst unsightly, water will not harm a deisel engine or any of it's ancillary parts. Any diesel will operate successfully under water provided it can get air. The injectors will not suffer and as the electrics are below 24volts, water will not cause them to short.
> 
> Hi
> 
> GerryD
> 
> I would have to disagree with you on the water issue and on the shorting issues, these injectors will in all likely hood be very difficult/impossible to remove if as we suspect rust has passed through to the threads in the alloy head, should they fail in 3 years time you will likely end up have the head changed if they cannot remove. Most garages these days will not mess around as we have seen in the past, they need to turn vehicles round as quick as possible to stay in business, so will just fit parts rather than try and extract a damaged injector.
> 
> Water can be an issue, there are elements in it that over time will cause contamination of the electrical connection, with the low signal voltages used in modern vehicles it can cause havoc long term.
> 
> If we see a fix I am asking the garage to remove all injectors, clean and lubricate all fixing threads etc., I have as an interim measure sprayed the fusebox and other effected areas with a protective spray.
> 
> My concerns are more relative to the reliability that we can expect long term and both of these issues can produce a very adverse impact on that.
> 
> Chris


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## geraldandannie

So sorry to hear that, Steve.

So come on then, more details - does it look the same? Is it one piece? Two piece? Maybe the water didn't come from the scuttle, but around the sides of the bonnet? Under the windscreen seal, as shown on Chris's excellent video?

We're like slavering dogs, waiting for any crumbs of information :? 

Gerald


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## GerryD

Dave,

It's a shame that you misquoted me, what I actually wrote was:
"I do sympathise with those that have had a long battle but would suggest that before you knock me again, those of you that have not contacted the Fial Helpline since monday should try again and see whether the information has changed. If it has then perhaps you can see light at the end of the tunnel. If it has not changed then perhaps I was given incorrect information and therefore I would need to make further enquiries."
And by that I stand. 
Whilst the clubs do rely on advertising for revenue, I am certain that, as they have done in the past, if they were to receive a strong lobby from their members then they would fight the case. This would be no different from newspapers who will willingly fight their advertisers if they feel that there is a justifiable case.
Regards,

Gerry


----------



## 96299

geraldandannie said:


> So sorry to hear that, Steve.
> 
> So come on then, more details - does it look the same? Is it one piece? Two piece? Maybe the water didn't come from the scuttle, but around the sides of the bonnet? Under the windscreen seal, as shown on Chris's excellent video?
> 
> We're like slavering dogs, waiting for any crumbs of information :?
> 
> Gerald


Hi Gerald

The scuttle appears to be the same as the old one.It went to fiat for other work not related to water ingress but they spotted the scuttle and replaced it.Dealer added more sealant back at their HQ but it is still leaking.I only had a quick look yesterday as I have a bit of a medical problem at the moment to which I`ve spent more time at the hospital than at home it seems.
It didn`t appear to be leaking to much from the lap joint to be honest,but there there was a fair amount of water around the injectors so I need to investigate more closely when I`m physically able to.Sorry I cant be of more help at this time.

steve


----------



## geraldandannie

GerryD said:


> Whilst the clubs do rely on advertising for revenue, I am certain that, as they have done in the past, if they were to receive a strong lobby from their members then they would fight the case.


That's actually not a bad idea. I'm emailing the Caravan Club now. It can't hurt.

Gerald


----------



## geraldandannie

Chigman said:


> I only had a quick look yesterday as I have a bit of a medical problem at the moment to which I`ve spent more time at the hospital than at home it seems.


Sorry to hear that, Steve. Hope you're feeling fitter soon - I din't mean to hassle you 

Gerald


----------



## Zebedee

Gerry



> Dave,
> 
> It's a shame that you misquoted me, what I actually wrote was:
> "I do sympathise with those that have had a long battle but would suggest that before you knock me again, those of you that have not contacted the Fial Helpline since monday should try again and see whether the information has changed. If it has then perhaps you can see light at the end of the tunnel. If it has not changed then perhaps I was given incorrect information and therefore I would need to make further enquiries."
> And by that I stand.
> Whilst the clubs do rely on advertising for revenue, I am certain that, as they have done in the past, if they were to receive a strong lobby from their members then they would fight the case. This would be no different from newspapers who will willingly fight their advertisers if they feel that there is a justifiable case.
> Regards,
> 
> Gerry


I used "copy and paste" so I can't possibly have misquoted you.  

That aside however, I'm sure I'm not alone in asking you to try to repeat the success you had yesterday in getting a definitive response from Fiat. You may not be fully aware, even now, of how much angst this issue has caused. Some of us have been trying to get an acceptable response since February, I started in June, and none of us so far appear to have anything concrete.

If you really did get the wonderfully reassuring response you reported yesterday, PLEASE go back and ask your very pleasant lady to send you an email so we have something in writing. :?

Gerald is right, we are all "desperate for any crumbs of information"!

Regards

Dave


----------



## 96299

geraldandannie said:


> Chigman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I only had a quick look yesterday as I have a bit of a medical problem at the moment to which I`ve spent more time at the hospital than at home it seems.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear that, Steve. Hope you're feeling fitter soon - I din't mean to hassle you
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

No probs mate... :lol:

steve


----------



## geraldandannie

Well, I've emailed the Caravan Club (no longer in the C&CC), but the only email address I could find was the general "info" one. Hopefully, they'll pass it on somwhere relevent.

Here's hoping we get something positive back from them.

Gerald


----------



## 1happy

*Brilliant*

Hi geraldandannie,
Thankyou for helping us bring the threads together,
Carol will be so pleased as I am sure many other members will be too!
As I am sure you know I tried with this thread and its like a runaway train as members often want their issues discussed separately.
Hence if you & other concerned members have no objections I'd like to change this thread title to (Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls) which seems to describe more of the issues than the current one and will remain in the Google search which will help more!
I will check back later and do the title change if the consensus of opinion agrees with the title change
Many thanks again & hopefully this move will make for happy bunnies
Catherine


----------



## geraldandannie

Sounds like an excellent idea, Catherine  

Gerald


----------



## christopherobin

GerryD

You have a pm (Private Message)
from yesterday.

Chris


----------



## carolgavin

Sorry decided better of this one and deleted, made myself just as bad


----------



## urbanracer

Whose rattled your cage :?:


----------



## GerryD

Chris, thank you for your message.I have spoken to Fiat Motorhome Helpline again this evening and they have again confirmed the recalls. The recall numbers are:
5219
5221
5222
5223
5251
I have now spoken to the dealer and they are checking the racalls and parts availability. I shll keep everybody informed of the progress from the dealer.
Hope these numbers are a help to everybody else.


----------



## 1happy

*Recalls ?*

Hi GerryD.
I have been out most of the day & have only just seen the Recall numbers you give above.
Are these in relation to the "water problem"
I ask because I spoke to Fiat yesterday and asked three times if there were any "Recalls" and each time I was told NO only a de-oxidisation process!
Which I have now been waiting for my garage to confirm for approx 26 hours?
Regards 1happy


----------



## 1happy

GerryD said:


> Chris, thank you for your message.I have spoken to Fiat Motorhome Helpline again this evening and they have again confirmed the recalls. The recall numbers are:
> 5219
> 5221
> 5222
> 5223
> 5251
> I have now spoken to the dealer and they are checking the racalls and parts availability. I shll keep everybody informed of the progress from the dealer.
> Hope these numbers are a help to everybody else.


*Help!*
*Does anyone know what the recall numbers GerryD has given are for :?: 
I repeat,I ask because I spoke to Fiat yesterday and asked three times if there were any "Recalls" and each time I was told NO only a de-oxidisation process! *
Anyone?


----------



## Zebedee

Can't help I'm afraid 1happy.

I've been down about 50 pages of Mr Google's best efforts and can't think of anywhere else to look.

I am a bit surprised that GerryD quoted 5 numbers for what I would have assumed was only a single recall. I hope he reads this soon as some further guidance would be very handy, especially as I will have to translate Italian into French. 8O (Mine's a Peugeot.)

Thanks so far Gerry, but please give us a bit more to chew on.

Regards

Dave


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi Sanatogen.
Just noticed you haven't been a member for very long. :idea: 
First I would like to say WELCOME to the forum,  
Second try not to pay too much attention to people who butt into threads spouting chapter and verse when it is well documented from many forum members what they have been going through to try and resolve their problems!
I know what I have been told in many conversations with FiART and so do many other MHF users.  
The person in question (& I don't wish to make insinuations) may have his own reasons for his provocative stance?
Be assured this is normally a very happy place with good humoured people.
May we all hope get Fiat and Peugeot to act responsibly about this "problem" & then we can all get back to talking about the great aspects of owning a motorhome


----------



## Zebedee

1happy wrote,


> Just noticed you haven't been a member for very long.
> First I would like to say WELCOME to the forum . . . .


Thanks for the welcome.

As a Newbie to the forum (I am already a fully paid up member of the Fiat Sub Aqua Club!) I was not at all bothered by the lack of understanding apparent in the post, as we are a fairly exclusive club. I was a bit upset by the antagonism toward us though, and the suggestion that we haven't a clue what we are talking about and have made very little effort to find out.

Never mind. That all seems to have passed over now and if we all work together I'm sure Fiat will eventually come to our rescue. :? :?

Regards

Dave


----------



## geraldandannie

Sanatogen said:


> ... and if we all work together I'm sure Fiat will eventually come to our rescue. :? :?


I don't know why, but that last statement made me laugh out loud :lol: :lol: :lol:

As Diana Ross once sang: "And I'm still waiting ...."

And just running the song through my head, she also sang "I'm just a fool, I'm just a fool to keep waiting" :wink:

Gerald


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

My 3.0 is subject to four recalls....

5111, 5219, 5221 and 5223.

As far as I am aware, a RECALL covers safety related matters. A "CAMPAIGN" (the word used by Fiat to me) would deal with the water ingress.

Fiat cannot tell me what the recall is about, nor can the dealer.

Standing by for a positive responese!

Russell


----------



## 96299

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> My 3.0 is subject to four recalls....
> 
> 5111, 5219, 5221 and 5223.
> 
> As far as I am aware, a RECALL covers safety related matters. A "CAMPAIGN" (the word used by Fiat to me) would deal with the water ingress.
> 
> Fiat cannot tell me what the recall is about, nor can the dealer.
> 
> Standing by for a positive responese!
> 
> Russell


I suppose that means me too then with my 3.0ltr :?


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi.
Ours is the 2.3ltr (130 multijet) and I repeat myself when I say Fiat told me on tuesday "no outstanding recalls" for my vehicle!
So now I wonder
1/ Is the 3 ltr different in that many ways ?
2/ Why are the numbers given to Rapide561 different to the ones given to GerryD ?
3/ On the *Vosa website Re VIN NOs starting ZFA24400007000022 *they have a recall Re *"possibility of reduced braking performance"* and a description* "Due to the inlet filter for the EGR valve being in an exposed position there is a possibility of water entering the brake servo vacuum pipe.This could result in the possibility of ice forming in the brake servo vacuum pipe in conditions of low ambient temperature.As a consequence this may lead to reduced servo assistance to the braking system"*
*Anyone?* :?: 
4/
Do any of the above make sense to any members?


----------



## geraldandannie

Slightly off the current strand ...

I've just had a call from my dealer. Profuse apologies for not being aware of the problem. They say no one has told them about this before, and he's a bit confused as to why Spacerunner's Chausson (identical to mine) doesn't have the problem. We are guessing that early ones were made more carefully, or with different bits, or maybe had LHD parts and now they're RHD.

He's willing to wager that a 'proper' announcement will be made by Fiat before the NEC opens next week. He says they won't want hoards of angry manufacturers, dealers and customers swarming onto their stand at the show. Maybe there will be a handout available at the show?

They are chasing their local Fiat agency to call me to tell me what they know (which I suspect is not a lot).

(And the rippled wing moulding will be replaced at my convenience).

Since we're away from next Saturday for 6 days, I'm wondering about filling up the passenger side hole, and putting a little 'chute' under the central gap, to try to deflect water away from the injector cavity (and spraying WD40 over the fusebox, of course).

No reply from the Caravan Club to my impassioned plea - I wonder if they'd respond quicker if I wanted to pay my subs, or buy something from their shop?

Gerald


----------



## Spacerunner

Maybe the front 'Chausson' badging is the clue. Actually contrary to what I thought before I do have a very small drip through the centre joint. But the white painted piece of bodywork to which the centre of the scuttle is fixed to appears to deflect this very small water ingress away from the engine head. I got very wet on the other day trying to observe this in the heavy rain! From the posted photos that I've seen the centre join is similar to others i.e. driver's side over passenger's side. The seal appears to be made of foam rubber, maybe not the best waterproofing material!


----------



## geraldandannie

Spacerunner said:


> I got very wet on the other day trying to observe this in the heavy rain!


 :lol: :lol: - oops, shouldn't laugh. Sorry.  All in the interests of science, eh?



Spacerunner said:


> The seal appears to be made of foam rubber, maybe not the best waterproofing material!


I noticed that too - the top is the same plastic stuff the scuttle is made from, but underneath feels like soft sponge :roll:

Will was over in France on business, but not Chausson business. But he was very apologetic, and upset about the fact I thought I wasn't getting good custmer service. I think they do care  He was adamant they hadn't seen this before - he says that if they had, they would rather delay handover by half a day than risk a customer having to come back.

Gerald


----------



## Rapide561

*Re: Fiat*



Chigman said:


> Rapide561 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> My 3.0 is subject to four recalls....
> 
> 5111, 5219, 5221 and 5223.
> 
> As far as I am aware, a RECALL covers safety related matters. A "CAMPAIGN" (the word used by Fiat to me) would deal with the water ingress.
> 
> Fiat cannot tell me what the recall is about, nor can the dealer.
> 
> Standing by for a positive responese!
> 
> Russell
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose that means me too then with my 3.0ltr :?
Click to expand...

Hi

Phone Fiat UK on 01753 511431 and ask to be put through to customer services in the UK. Tell them your concerns and have available your registration plate and chassis number.

Standing by...

Russell


----------



## urbanracer

Some people have said there are too many posts about this Fiat and Peugeot problem but a point I would like to make is that a lot of VOSA recalls do get missed and the campaigns or whatever manufacturers call them are also missed.
So if anyone buys any used vehicle its worth checking the VOSA site to check if any recalls affect that vehicle. It should when the work is finished be entered in the service book and even if that has been lost the dealer should be able to check.
Some years ago I bought a very nice Ford Scorpio Ultima upon checking it had missed a recall for a new throttle body,throttle position sensor and a extra sheild/plate to protect the TPS due to the posibily of damp ingress through the front grill,compared to Boxer under the bonnet was like a desert.
The parts were quickly obtained from Germany and fitted at the end of the day I was happy for the work to be done,the dealer got some warrenty hours and the percentage recall figure for Ford increased.

The MPG for the Boxer is miles ahead of that returned by the Scorpio.


----------



## GerryD

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> My 3.0 is subject to four recalls....
> 
> 5111, 5219, 5221 and 5223.
> 
> As far as I am aware, a RECALL covers safety related matters. A "CAMPAIGN" (the word used by Fiat to me) would deal with the water ingress.
> 
> Fiat cannot tell me what the recall is about, nor can the dealer.
> 
> Standing by for a positive responese!
> 
> Russell


Interesting to note that three of the recalls quoted by Rapide561 are the same as I was quoted. I have a 2.3 (130Multijet) and assume that the other numbers quoted are more engine specific. At leats that confirms my information for those that doubted it.

I am waiting for the dealer to let me know exactly what the recalls are for and like Rapide561 I shall keep you posted. Certainly the information from Fiat is constantly changing as on Wednesday I was told that there were only two recalls, when I phoned back on Thursday to get more information to quell those that accused me of giving false information, I was told of five recalls and the numbers are as quoted.
I have just spoken to the Caravan Club Technical Dept and it appears that I am only the second recorded person to complain to them. They will not take any action or investigation until they receive at least 10 complaints. I would therefore suggest that everybody who is a member of the Caravan Club to contact the Technical Dept and get their voice heard. That way as I suggested earlier we would have the mass weight of a recognised body behind us.


----------



## 1happy

*Recalls ?*

Hi GerryD.
I think you will find that your first post as below might be the cause of any responses you feel are injustified!



> The suggestion on other threads is that if you call the Fiat helpline on the number in your documentation they will arrange for this to be put right. If this is correct, and as yet I haven't tried myself but will tonight, then there is no need for all of the animosity shown in this forum. It would appear that Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen have effected a cure and will fit the parts to anybody that raises the issue. It is also suggested that vehicles will be upgraded at service.
> There cannot be a recall as there is no safety issue and therefore the only obligation on the manufacture is to go down the service route. This is the only sensible reason to have your vehicle serviced at a Main Dealer, or at least have contact with them.
> If the issue is such a major problem, how is it that business owners of X250 vans are not complaining, after all Motorhome owners form a very small proportion of X250 series sales.
> I would suggest that before anybody else complains on this thread, they make the call to Fiat and then tell of their experience. If they have reacted as others have said then you have created a lot of fuss for no reason. If, however it is found that Fiat deny the information that they have given others then you have a right to complain.
> Personally I am inclined to believe the information from the Swift representative.


Furthermore the person I spoke to Tuesday at Fiat Totally denied any "recalls".


----------



## urbanracer

I have a Peugeot and did check on Vosa for recalls only one applied to my Boxer and that was handbrake function upon checking mine was not a chassis number involved.
VOSA have not issued todate any recalls re ingress of water on engine. Peugeot have issued their INFO VIEW No 03/07 for a re-seal that does not work in March and upon checking 2 Peugeot dealers had never heard of in September.

But we all know this don't we. The CC have only 2 recorded complaints does not sound they are a very proactive body for motorhomes.


----------



## GerryD

I admit that my first post was inflammtory and for that I appologise. Since then I have done as I said I would in that post and followed the advice from Peter of Swift and others in these discussions. The results are as shown in my subsequent posts. 
As I said earlier, the information from Fiat does seem to be changing and it is possible that you may get a different response today from the one that you received on Tuesday. 
I certainly believe that to further any campaign would require the support and weight of the major clubs and was more than surprised to be told by the Caravan Club that they had only received one call about this matter before mine. The clubs are there to represent their members and are far more experienced in dealing with dealers and manufacturers than individual members of this forum. We pay our subs, lets get some value from them.


----------



## GerryD

I have just had a phone call from my Fiat dealer. These recalls are not on the system yet but I am informed that there is often a delay of a couple of weeks before service bulletins are issued to dealers unless there is a safety issue.
He did offer the information that he believes they are to do with the water entering the bonnet and suggested that a spray of WD40 would prevent any oxidation. I must admit that I had forgotten the good old WD40 but that is a damned good idea.
I shall try again in a couple of weeks after I have had another holiday to enjoy the van.


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Fiat*



GerryD said:


> I have just had a phone call from my Fiat dealer. These recalls are not on the system yet but I am informed that there is often a delay of a couple of weeks before service bulletins are issued to dealers unless there is a safety issue.
> He did offer the information that he believes they are to do with the water entering the bonnet and suggested that a spray of WD40 would prevent any oxidation. I must admit that I had forgotten the good old WD40 but that is a damned good idea.
> I shall try again in a couple of weeks after I have had another holiday to enjoy the van.


I have had a further call from Fiat today and they are fully aware of your frustrations and the inconsistant messages you are getting and will endevour to improve the service levels.I am confident that they will resolve the problem(because they have to) unfortunately in such a large organisation it takes time.Peter.


----------



## urbanracer

WD40 would prevent any oxidation

A bit late when rust has already formed,  but if anyone needs some Lidl have a special on it this week  

And the volume of water will soon wash it off but every little helps.


----------



## Zebedee

geraldandannie said:


> Sanatogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... and if we all work together I'm sure Fiat will eventually come to our rescue. :? :?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why, but that last statement made me laugh out loud :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> As Diana Ross once sang: "And I'm still waiting ...."
> 
> And just running the song through my head, she also sang "I'm just a fool, I'm just a fool to keep waiting" :wink:
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

(Just got in and found this one.)

I think I have a vague idea of why you had a chuckle Gerald. Pleased I gave somebody a happy moment.  

I did rush outside to check for flying pigs, but something very glutinous and extremely malodorous fell in my eye so I couldn't see a thing for several minutes. 8O 8O

Cheers

Dave


----------



## Zebedee

> from "GerryD"
> I admit that my first post was inflammtory and for that I appologise. Since then I have done as I said I would in that post and followed the advice from Peter of Swift and others in these discussions.


'Appology' accepted Gerry. We all make mistakes, even when spelling apologise.   (Sorry, couldn't resist that one.)

Thanks for your subsequent posts, and since you may be in a more privileged position than some of us as regards getting information (I'm guessing here), any further help you can give will be much appreciated. I may have guessed wrongly, but for whatever reason you appear to have had far more rapid success than many of us, so thanks again for passing it on.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## geraldandannie

.. and don't forget to imform the Caravan Club of your frustrations, as Gerry said. I wonder if that one other complaint was after my email the other day?

Just checked my email - no response from the CC - I'll try to find the "Technical Department" email address.

Gerald


----------



## GerryD

Dave,

I am in no more privileged position than anyone else. Just an owner like others. Perhaps I came across this forum at the right time.
This matter had not been commented on in forums on other sites until a few weeks ago and due to that I decided to do a google search. As soon as I saw this discussion I saw the posting from Peter at Swift and saw that there were no postings subsequent to his showing that anyone had followed his advice since he posted it (other than 1, who seemed to have a result).
I therefore followed his advice and as yet cannot complain at the service that I have received.
I still stand by my opinion that these are diesels and as such the engines cannot be damaged by water. I do know many people who have spent many years in the commercial motor trade and they would confirm this. The surface rust around the injectors and bolts is just that, and provided the bolts are manufactured from the correct grade of steel and correctly seated, they should not suffer any ill effects. I have seen people stating that they will insist on having the bolts and injectors removed for inspection, that is the worst thing you can do especially if the bolts are pre-stressed as they cannot be replaced. You will end up paying for new ones. There is also the posibility that disturbing the injectors will affect their calibration. The best advice with any engine is not to disturb parts unnecessarily.

Regards,

Gerry


----------



## Zebedee

Hi Gerald

Have you stopped laughing yet??  

Could you post the text of your email to the Caravan Club. Others can them alter it a bit, but not too much, to leave them in no doubt that we are all singing from the same hymnsheet.

I have no gripe against the CC, just the opposite in fact, but they can be a bit slow to sit up and take notice.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## geraldandannie

Sanatogen said:


> Have you stopped laughing yet??


Just about. It only lasted a few moments. Then I went back to crying 



Sanatogen said:


> Could you post the text of your email to the Caravan Club. Others can them alter it a bit, but not too much, to leave them in no doubt that we are all singing from the same hymnsheet.


Glad to. It was written fairly quickly, and I didn't really review it, but here it is anyway:

_
Hello!

<name> <membership number>

I am a member of staff at MotorhomeFacts online community, many of whom are Caravan Club members.

Those of us that have invested heavily in new motorhomes this year are suffering a terrible problem - the 2007 Fiat Ducato and Peugeot bases for our motorhomes are leaking water into the engine bay. We have photographic and video evidence of this problem, and we have a large number of our members (and probably yours too) suffering with this problem.

Fiat insist that it's a cosmetic issue, and give conflicting messages from their support lines about recalls and availability of fixes. The serious issues concern the pooling of rainwater around the injectors, and subsequent corrosion of same. We are concerned that, some time 'down the line', the injectors will not be able to be removed from the engine for servicing, and will require the replacement of the head - the costs likely to have to be borne by the owner as the warranty will have expired.

There is also water dribbling through an unselaed hole, and onto the fuse box directly below. There are also issues with the sealing of the windscreen rubber seal, and the bonnet / headlight area.

Ordinarily, we would be speaking to our motorhome dealers and Fiat about this, but this situation has been continuing since it was first reported in February of this year, and to date no complete workable solution has been found.

We have been told that the new motorhomes in display at the NEC next week will have plastic covers over the injectors - presumably to cover up any incidences of corrosion, and help to dupe prospective buyers into purchase.

I don't know which department within the Caravan Club might be interested in this issue, but I'm hoping this email will be forwarded on to them.

I repeat - we have many members who are experiencing this fault - there must be so many more who are unaware. It is likely that the commercial vehicle versions of the Ducato also suffer, but being commercial vans, it is likely that the owners / drivers are unaware.

We are a very active community of nearly 19,000 members, of which 2,067 are annual, sunscription-paying members. We would like to enlist your help to get Fiat to recognise the seriousness of this issue - after all, our vehicles have cost us many, many 10's of thousands of pounds.

Thanks you.
_

Gerald

_*EDIT: This email has been redrafted and rewritten and improved by Dave over the page.*_


----------



## Zebedee

GerryD said:


> Dave,
> 
> I am in no more privileged position than anyone else. Just an owner like others. Perhaps I came across this forum at the right time.
> This matter had not been commented on in forums on other sites until a few weeks ago and due to that I decided to do a google search. As soon as I saw this discussion I saw the posting from Peter at Swift and saw that there were no postings subsequent to his showing that anyone had followed his advice since he posted it (other than 1, who seemed to have a result).
> I therefore followed his advice and as yet cannot complain at the service that I have received.
> I still stand by my opinion that these are diesels and as such the engines cannot be damaged by water. I do know many people who have spent many years in the commercial motor trade and they would confirm this. The surface rust around the injectors and bolts is just that, and provided the bolts are manufactured from the correct grade of steel and correctly seated, they should not suffer any ill effects. I have seen people stating that they will insist on having the bolts and injectors removed for inspection, that is the worst thing you can do especially if the bolts are pre-stressed as they cannot be replaced. You will end up paying for new ones. There is also the posibility that disturbing the injectors will affect their calibration. The best advice with any engine is not to disturb parts unnecessarily.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Gerry


Hi Gerry

I'm not sure how significant are the difference in usage between White Van Man's motor and ours. WVM uses his almost every day, and usually all day as well, whereas ours might stand for weeks during the winter without being used at all. (I know they shouldn't, but in storage away from home etc. I bet it happens.) WVM evaporates any water from his engine compartment every day, and it stays warm well into the night, so less (or no) damage is likely to occur, compared to ours which may be standing for weeks on end, dripping wet.

Having said that, I take your point about "if it ain't broke, don't mend it" and your comments on pre-stressed bolts and injector calibration make very good sense.

I have been thinking of putting a smear of water pump grease around the injectors just where they enter the cylinder head and go rusty. Water pump grease would be less likely to wash off than WD40, but is it resistant to cylinder head temperatures? Also I haven't got any   , and need the advice of the chemists among us about any possible side effects.

Quote
"_Water Pump Grease. A stiff, smooth lime-based grease with excellent water resistance, ensuring unbeatable sealing properties in vehicle water pumps."_

*Lime based??? Is this a worry for use as above?*

Cheers

Dave


----------



## Zebedee

*Re: Gerald's email to the Caravan Club*

Re: Gerald's email.

I will re-draught it so it comes from an individual rather than a forum moderator, and post the new version for anyone else to copy, alter a bit, and send to the CC.

Don't forget to include your CC membership number when you do, or they may bin it without even looking at it.

This may take a while as we have guests for dinner tonight and I'm already late for spud peeling fatigues.  

Until later,

Dave

Gerald. Would it make sense to mention this at the bottom of your post containing the email? Folk would then be sure to see it, and it would save re-inventing the same wheel many times over.


----------



## GerryD

Dave,

Rather than water pump grease, try copper grease. It is capable of withstanding the heat of brake pads.You can now get it in a spray can and it is heat resistant. It will also help to keep those threads lubricated. Just be careful not to get it onto any electrical parts.

Regards,

Gerry


----------



## Zebedee

GerryD said:


> Dave,
> 
> Rather than water pump grease, try copper grease. It is capable of withstanding the heat of brake pads.You can now get it in a spray can and it is heat resistant. It will also help to keep those threads lubricated. Just be careful not to get it onto any electrical parts.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Gerry


Thanks Gerry. Hadn't thought of that, and I have some as well.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## DC4JC

I have just had some conversations with Fiat regarding the recalls mentioned on here.

Mine is also subject to 3 recalls;
5209 related to gear box
5221 not known what this is, TBA.
5247 not known what this is, TBA.

I have also had a call back from Fiat HQ re: a letter I've sent to the MH dealer. He has assured me that a longer term solution will be available, but cannot say when. Despite the fact that one of his colleagues told me it would be November for the 3 ltr version!
He said this would be subject to a 'campaign' not a recall, as it was not a safety issue.

However, in the interim this de oxidisation process is available.

My MH is booked in for next Thursday for the gearbox and I've now asked him to contact them and update them on the de oxidisation process as they have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about when I've mentioned water ingress etc.


----------



## DC4JC

The plot thickens.

They've just rung me back and said that the de oxidisation process does not apply to the 3 ltr version and is only available for the 2.5 and 2.3 versions!

However, recalls 5221 and 5247 refer to the water ingress solution and have been posted on the system in readiness for the campaign which he is now saying will be within 1 month. 

Fingers and everything else crossed!


----------



## GerryD

DC4JC,
Thanks for the info, it seems that things are progressing. The thought that one contributor had that Fiat would come up with something before the NEC may prove to be a very profound statement.


----------



## geraldandannie

*This is the sample email written by Dave (Sanatogen), and posted by me 'cos he's got to peel some potatoes *

From Caravan Club Member No. …………………

Dear Sir

Many us who have invested heavily in new motorhomes this year are suffering from a serious problem. The 2007 Fiat Ducato and Peugeot bases for our motorhomes are leaking water into the engine bay. We have photographic and video evidence of this problem, and it is not just a trickle of water! The whole of the engine bay becomes sodden in a downpour, and among other worrying effects is a rapid and serious rusting of the injectors.

Messrs. Fiat insist that it is no more than a cosmetic issue, and give very conflicting messages from their support lines about the availability of fixes, but no definitive offer of a solution has yet been forthcoming. As mentioned before, the most serious issue concerns the pooling of rainwater around the injectors, and subsequent corrosion of same. We are concerned that at some time in the future this will lead to serious and expensive problems, and are worried that the very considerable costs involved will almost certainly have to be borne by the owners, as the warranty will by then have expired.

Water also pours through an unsealed hole in the scuttle onto the fuse box directly below, and although one would hope this is well proofed against water ingress, it is worrying nonetheless.

We have of course been speaking to our motorhome dealers and Fiat about this, and at considerable length, but this situation has been ongoing since it was first reported in February of this year, and to date no complete workable solution has been offered.

We have been informed that the new motorhomes on display at the NEC show will have plastic covers over the injectors. If this proves to be true, we are at a loss to explain Fiat's continuing insistence that the problem is simply cosmetic??

I subscribe to a forum which has many members who are experiencing this fault, and there must be many more owners throughout the country in a similar situation. Even as I type there are dozens (perhaps even hundreds) of brand new, as yet unsold motorhomes in dealers' yards, whose engines are being flooded with water every time it rains!

I would be most grateful for any help you may feel able to offer in persuading Messrs. Fiat to recognise the seriousness of this issue, and to offer a solution - preferably in the form of an official recall of the affected vehicles. This would be a valuable service to the significant number of existing Caravan Club members who own these vehicles, and could only serve to encourage non-members to join such a supportive Club as ours.

Yours etc.


----------



## Don_Madge

*Fiat Recall*

Fiat have issued a recall for the new model Ducato. 

"Fiat will be contacting customers over the next few days in order to carry out a minor technical check on the power steering box and the windscreen wiper motor. " 8O

At the same time they will be providing a solution to the water ingress problem that has been widely reported. 8O

There's a copyy of their latest release here: http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/fiat-water-ingress.shtml

Don


----------



## geraldandannie

Thanks for that, Don. Interesting information on the linked site.

Incidentally, I have merged your post into the main topic for this subject, so we don't have too many topics (threads) about the same subject.

If that makes sense :? 

Gerald


----------



## Spacerunner

Hands up all those holding their breaths... :lol:


----------



## zulurita

What a good idea, thanks for the letter I have just copied it and will send it to the Caravan Club.

My new Motorhome has finally arrived at the dealers so I will be going up to look at it tomorow.


----------



## geraldandannie

Spacerunner said:


> Hands up all those holding their breaths... :lol:


 :lol: :lol: :lol: My hands are firmly DOWN.

Mind you, I was phoned by our local(-ish) Fiat garage a little while ago. It seems they were contacted by the Fiat agency in Walton Super Mare (local to our dealer, who had been hassling them).

They knew nothing yet, but were just phoning out of courtesy to let me know they had my details, and would be in contact again when they knew more.

I'm still breathing in and out :wink:

Gerald


----------



## geraldandannie

zulurita said:


> My new Motorhome has finally arrived at the dealers so I will be going up to look at it tomorow.


Thanks for sending the email, Rita.

Good luck for tomorrow - take a bucket (actually, you only need half a cupfull) of water with you. :wink:

Gerald


----------



## Spacerunner

"Mind you, I was phoned by our local(-ish) Fiat garage a little while ago. It seems they were contacted by the Fiat agency in Walton Super Mare (local to our dealer, who had been hassling them).

They knew nothing yet, but were just phoning out of courtesy to let me know they had my details, and would be in contact again when they knew more."



Well at least you're getting a conversation going Gerald. Good to know that one Fiat dealer is pushing the manufacturers for answers and admitting knowledge ofr the fault.


----------



## carolgavin

*Peugeot owners!!*

On the back of the announcement by Fiat I called good old Peugeot for an update :evil: I spoke to Chris who said that there is *no* recall, *no *technical fixes, *no *service announcements and that the Peugeot vehicle conforms to safety regulations :roll: :roll: :roll:

Gerryd (and others) you seem to have some technical knowledge can you explain why they would want to look at the power steering box??? Think I know why they would want to look at the windscreen wiper bitty as somebody mentioned that in a previous post. But would be interested in the whys and wherefores of the power steering box!!


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi Carol

It may be unrelated. However, it _may_ be that the steering box is underneath the leak. It transforms the twirly-whirly of the steering wheel into push and pull on the steering arms, which make the wheels turn.

As I say, it may be unrelated. The steering box is likely to get deluged with water from the road anyway.

Gerald


----------



## 1happy

*Whatever next ??????????????*

Hi all.
*Is this a hoax?
I have copied and pasted from the link provided and there are more questions than answers!*
HERE>> http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/fiat-water-ingress.shtml
I have highlighted a couple of the areas of interest and when I have stopped rolling around the floor in a cross between hysterics and "no more please" I will hope someone can tell me if this is a hoax.

Goes as follows
............................................................................................................
QUOTE "Fiat have released the following announcement:

UK Release

We have received reports of oxidation to the injector body on the cylinder head of some vehicles built on a New Fiat Ducato base. The entry of water into the engine compartment is taken into consideration at the design stage - and the engine and its associated parts are built to withstand such effects when a new vehicle is developed. *In addition to the millions of kilometres of tests carried out under all weather conditions, the engine and its peripherals are specifically tested against water infiltration under extreme conditions, including fords, natural and artificial rain, water jets, immersion of the most sensitive elements etc. to certify their water resistance. *
The new Ducato complies 100% with this certification procedure and is not therefore affected by any short or long term technical or operational risk associated with water infiltration into the engine compartment .

The presence of water on the injector bodies was not considered critical because it is a surface effect that does not cause any operational problems to the engine.

We have nevertheless taken into account reports received from some customers on this subject with the usual attention that Fiat devotes to its Motorhome customers and have prepared a special operating procedure to improve this aspect. The problem will be resolved by applying a substance to the injector body to remove any oxidation present and provide additional protection to prevent the problem arising again while also performing an operation to reduce the amount of water entering through the engine guard.

*Fiat will be contacting customers over the next few days in order to carry out a minor technical check on the power steering box and the windscreen wiper motor. We plan to take advantage of these checks to carry out the above operation as well, free of charge. *

For further information, please contact our Camping Care Customer Care number; 00800 3428 111 (back up +39 0244412160).

Please note that, although the effect described above is unsightly, we pay the greatest attention to the effects of water on the new Ducato. All the possible impacts of water are taken into consideration and guaranteed by having 90% of the bodywork galvanised on both sides and other operations, such as the application of paint even to less visible parts such as the dashboard support beam.

Yours sincerely Fiat Professional

[last edited 12/10/07] "
.........................................................................................................
They cannot be serious?


----------



## geraldandannie

Unfortunately, I think they're deadly serious. This is standard PR-speak for "we messed up, but don't blame us".

Anyone with an ounce of sense can look at the design, and realise it's a pile of poo. This is a major goof by Fiat, but they're trying to show that they're a caring, sharing company, and because a few people have asked a question or two, they're taking upon them selves to look at the design out of the goodness of their hearts.

Bottom line, though - the solution gets ever closer ...

Gerald


----------



## 1happy

Thanks Gerald.
At least they have been good enough to say the check will be "free of charge" which I suppose we should be gratefull for :roll: 
and if its only a "minor technical check on the power steering box" I shouldn't worry about* driving* to the "free check" either :roll:

In fact I am gratefull the have a phone line at all :roll:

Sorry if I sound cynical  but I think I have been told for so long that this is "cosmetic" I am beginning to wonder if I shouldn't have just bought a beauty palour instead!


----------



## ICDSUN

*Re: Fiat Recall*

There's a copyy of their latest release here: http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/fiat-water-ingress.shtml

Don

It's a bit rich that the comments from their writer regarding not getting a response from Swift etc, given the time and effort that the chairman of Swift has spent on the effected owners behalf, never mind the owners individual efforts, obviously unaware of the issue until Fiat sent them the press release, so we must bow to that site as our saviours who have been championing our cause :roll:

Oh well back to the mushroom patch

Chris


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Fiat Recall*



ICDSUN said:


> There's a copyy of their latest release here: http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/fiat-water-ingress.shtml
> 
> Don
> 
> It's a bit rich that the comments from their writer regarding not getting a response from Swift etc, given the time and effort that the chairman of Swift has spent on the effected owners behalf, never mind the owners individual efforts, obviously unaware of the issue until Fiat sent them the press release, so we must bow to that site as our saviours who have been championing our cause :roll:
> 
> Oh well back to the mushroom patch
> 
> Chris


I e-mailed the guy at this site ages ago, 05/09 to be precise, as the first bit of the text before the peugeot bit came up whilst I was googling and I told hm of peter swifts responses on here I said we had found them to be our ONLY source of info at the time. He responded pretty quickly actually within an hour or two which I was really impressed with, he said
this below (edited highlights)

Hi,

I've had a look at a 4 month old Fiat, there is evidence of rusting at the base of the injectors which if left unchecked could well lead to future problems. I would think that if the existing surface rust is cleaned up and further water ingress is prevented, no long term problems would arise.

I am kinda wondering how they got hold of this before anyone else as to be really honest i hadn't come across the site before my random googling, although it does have some good info and news type items.


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Fiat Recall*



ICDSUN said:


> There's a copyy of their latest release here: http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/fiat-water-ingress.shtml
> 
> Don
> 
> It's a bit rich that the comments from their writer regarding not getting a response from Swift etc, given the time and effort that the chairman of Swift has spent on the effected owners behalf, never mind the owners individual efforts, obviously unaware of the issue until Fiat sent them the press release, so we must bow to that site as our saviours who have been championing our cause :roll:
> 
> Oh well back to the mushroom patch
> 
> Chris


Well I am speachless who is this idiot? Autotrail have only got their information from this forum.No one has contacted us from Caravan.net!I am now spitting! The top people from Fiat Italy technical will be at Swift in 10 days for me to go through again the water ingress problem.Peter.


----------



## GerryD

To answer Carol. My only experience is 40 odd years of having to repair my own vehicles and a family firmly ensconced in the motor industry. I would very much doubt whether the steering box is associated with the water issue. Steering boxes are sealed and must be mounted well down on the suspension otherwise they cannot do their job. They are therefore designed to be constantly taking everything that the roads can throw at them.
Wiper motors again are usually contained in a sealed unit that can withstand any amount of water. They are also packed with grease and therefore water would not cause any harm.
One must only assume that there are other matters as would be expected to arise after a vehicle has been introduced. This is normal for every venicle from the humble Fiesta to a Rolls Royce.
The claim by Fiat that they have spent millions of kilometers testing these vehicles is blindingly obvious. It is part of the type approval that all new vehicles must go through before final production can commence. One only has to look at the development test tracks around the world, like Millbrook in Bedfordshire to see the evidence of the rigours of testing. Most manufacturers test their vehicles on test tracks for 4 weeks 24 hours a day before road testing, and even road testing usually takes place over about three years before production.
It is possible that this issue has only manifested itself since the main-stream production of motorhomes. The pre-production vehicles would have been in constant use and therefore the build up of oxidation from water would not have shown. Motorhome manufacturers would also have kept their prototypes under cover to avoid the vehicle being seen by unauthorised persons. Therefore the vehicle would not have shown the water build up. Also the motorhome manufacturers would be more interested in the conversion and would only check under the bonnet for servicing, oil etc.
The part of the Fiat statement that does hurt is their failure to recognise the massive part that Peter from Swift has played and for that I am sure verybody will join me in thanking him.
I feel very sorry for those who have the Peugeot chassis, not only have they had to face the indignity of being denied the Camping Car chassis until last month, but they do not have either the recognition or the warranty the Fiat owners have.
I work in an industry that also from time to time has to issue recalls to the public and, believe me, the last thing that you want to do is to publicly admit that there is an issue until you are satisfied that you have a resolution and that you have crossed your t's and dotted your i's in front of your legal department. And even then you have to run your findings and resolution past Trading Standards before you can issue your letter, oh, and by the way, Trading Standards have to vet your letter. If you get it wrong in this crazy litigation society you could very easily lose a billion pound company. 
I sincerley hope that this matter is drawing to a conclusion and that we can all get out and enjoy our motorhomes and forget this episode.


----------



## ICDSUN

*Re: Fiat Recall*

Peter

You have every right to be less than amused, I suspect the writer of such garbage is a failed politician, he forgot to claim the glory for himself.

Anyway for what it's worth the members on here know who has helped and pushed for a solution, and I Thank you for your considerable efforts on our behalf.

Chris


----------



## SwiftGroup

*fiat*



GerryD said:


> To answer Carol. My only experience is 40 odd years of having to repair my own vehicles and a family firmly ensconced in the motor industry. I would very much doubt whether the steering box is associated with the water issue. Steering boxes are sealed and must be mounted well down on the suspension otherwise they cannot do their job. They are therefore designed to be constantly taking everything that the roads can throw at them.
> Wiper motors again are usually contained in a sealed unit that can withstand any amount of water. They are also packed with grease and therefore water would not cause any harm.
> One must only assume that there are other matters as would be expected to arise after a vehicle has been introduced. This is normal for every venicle from the humble Fiesta to a Rolls Royce.
> The claim by Fiat that they have spent millions of kilometers testing these vehicles is blindingly obvious. It is part of the type approval that all new vehicles must go through before final production can commence. One only has to look at the development test tracks around the world, like Millbrook in Bedfordshire to see the evidence of the rigours of testing. Most manufacturers test their vehicles on test tracks for 4 weeks 24 hours a day before road testing, and even road testing usually takes place over about three years before production.
> It is possible that this issue has only manifested itself since the main-stream production of motorhomes. The pre-production vehicles would have been in constant use and therefore the build up of oxidation from water would not have shown. Motorhome manufacturers would also have kept their prototypes under cover to avoid the vehicle being seen by unauthorised persons. Therefore the vehicle would not have shown the water build up. Also the motorhome manufacturers would be more interested in the conversion and would only check under the bonnet for servicing, oil etc.
> The part of the Fiat statement that does hurt is their failure to recognise the massive part that Peter from Swift has played and for that I am sure verybody will join me in thanking him.
> I feel very sorry for those who have the Peugeot chassis, not only have they had to face the indignity of being denied the Camping Car chassis until last month, but they do not have either the recognition or the warranty the Fiat owners have.
> I work in an industry that also from time to time has to issue recalls to the public and, believe me, the last thing that you want to do is to publicly admit that there is an issue until you are satisfied that you have a resolution and that you have crossed your t's and dotted your i's in front of your legal department. And even then you have to run your findings and resolution past Trading Standards before you can issue your letter, oh, and by the way, Trading Standards have to vet your letter. If you get it wrong in this crazy litigation society you could very easily lose a billion pound company.
> I sincerley hope that this matter is drawing to a conclusion and that we can all get out and enjoy our motorhomes and forget this episode.


You are right in what you say but Fiat have not looked at it from a domestic user point of view and have clearly misunderstood that point.The x250 is clearly an excellent vehicle spoiled by a poor design to dispel the windscreen water.I am convinced that when they have a proper solution they will do what is right.Peter.


----------



## Rapide561

*Re: Fiat Recall*



SwiftGroup said:


> ICDSUN said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a copyy of their latest release here: http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/fiat-water-ingress.shtml
> 
> Don
> 
> It's a bit rich that the comments from their writer regarding not getting a response from Swift etc, given the time and effort that the chairman of Swift has spent on the effected owners behalf, never mind the owners individual efforts, obviously unaware of the issue until Fiat sent them the press release, so we must bow to that site as our saviours who have been championing our cause :roll:
> 
> Oh well back to the mushroom patch
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> Well I am speachless who is this idiot? Autotrail have only got their information from this forum.No one has contacted us from Caravan.net!I am now spitting! The top people from Fiat Italy technical will be at Swift in 10 days for me to go through again the water ingress problem.Peter.
Click to expand...

Well Peter we can all vouch for your pro activity on this issue.

Russell


----------



## 1happy

*I beg your pardon!*

Hi all.
Post removed for I fear I lost the plot a little.


----------



## timbop37

"I feel very sorry for those who have the Peugeot chassis, not only have they had to face the indignity of being denied the Camping Car chassis until last month"

Hi Gerry

Just curious, what do you mean by this. What was different about the Peugeot chassis until last month?

Tim


----------



## GerryD

Tim,

The specific Camping Car chassis and Low Line Camping Car chassis were only available on the Fiat badged vehicles and not on Peugeot. From the introduction of 2008 models Peugeot have made these chassis available. If you have a Peugeot then it is either on the excellent Alko chassis or the base Peugeot chassis. The main difference on the Camping Car chassis is wider rear track which improves stability.


----------



## zulurita

geraldandannie said:


> zulurita said:
> 
> 
> 
> My new Motorhome has finally arrived at the dealers so I will be going up to look at it tomorow.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for sending the email, Rita.
> 
> Good luck for tomorrow - take a bucket (actually, you only need half a cupfull) of water with you. :wink:
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

Only half a cup of water! Well it is raining here this morning so that is good :wink: I will be able to see if the windscreen scuttle is full of water etc.


----------



## quartet

*Salt?*

Sorry to ad salt to the wounds but my MH has survived this week's monsoons up here in the NE and is bone dry! The "fix" def works
TY again Brownhills! it CAN be done !
Barry


----------



## carolgavin

> The claim by Fiat that they have spent millions of kilometers testing these vehicles is blindingly obvious


Wow, blindingly obvious eh, perhaps not to us poor wee motorhomers who despite the miles and milesies of rigorous testing 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a flippin year can still spot a design flaw where all the Fiat/Peugeot 24/7 365 days a year qualified testing blokes cannot. Woohoo guys I can see a future for us yet!! :wink: 
I really quite fancy driving round and round some nice wee testing station thingy in circles kinda like F1 only not as fast. :BIG: :car39: Closest I can get to F1 car :twisted: 
Three years before production eh, never knew that, kinda unbelievable that they had the prototypes all that time and never noticed something slightly amiss with the scuttle, but hey ho teething problems can happen to anyone I suppose. :roll: :roll: 
How come us poor wee Peugeot owners have a different warranty whats so different??? I feel cheated not only do I have a wet van I also don't seem to have a camping car chassis and a crappy warranty, right little ray of sunshine for me then, think I may have to lie down. :lol: :lol:
:happy1: 
Hey guess what I have just found all the other emoticons and I am gonna use them all, so watch out :evil3:


----------



## Grizzly

I've not gone through all the posts to check but has anyone thought of getting one of the consumer programmes involved ? Watchdog , You And Yours or similar ?

I would have thought there were enough of us and the issue was big enough for them to think it worth pursuing.

Incidentally Barry, we thought the Fiat fix that was sent to our dealer had done the job. The clips they used however were not up to the job and, after a couple of months we found one loose on top of the engine and another is gone forever. The remaining ones can't hold back the flow so we're now back to duct tape.

G


----------



## urbanracer

I have passed all the info I have and also linked to this site the new editor of Fleet times a trade publication that mainly is about vans.
I will wait to see if he can run any story on this but most of his readers will be running their vans 24/7 so problem will be minimized.


----------



## 107576

Hi 
I am very new to this forum i have phoned watchdog about this water ingress problem on a couple of occassions ( you only get 30 secs to explain your problems ), i also sent an email with a lot more detail but i have had no feedback from them prehaps if more people contact them they may take notice and run something for us 

reguards 
adrian


----------



## Zebedee

GerryD said,

"_I feel very sorry for those who have the Peugeot chassis, not only have they had to face the indignity of being denied the Camping Car chassis until last month . . . . ."_

Can anybody shed some light on this please? I was led to understand that the 2007 model Peugeot came with "the new chassis".

Thanks

Dave


----------



## 107576

Hi 
Please excuse my ignorance what is the camping car chassis my 07 peugeot boxer motorhome is the new shape wrap round headlights etc
reguards adrian


----------



## carolgavin

adegroo said:


> Hi
> Please excuse my ignorance what is the camping car chassis my 07 peugeot boxer motorhome is the new shape wrap round headlights etc
> reguards adrian


Hi Adrian, welcome to motorhomefacts, mine is also 2007 boxer new shape, with the water feature, not the camping car chassis and the crappy warranty. Despite this I actually like it :love1: Unfortunately being a mechanophobe I have no idea what this means but it sounded from gerryd's post like it was a good thing to have it and a bad thing not to have it :signsigh: 
In answer to your previous post (sorry it took me so long was watching Scotland win :flag163: ) I have not personally contacted Watchdog but I have contacted the following in no particular order with responses :gotglitter:

Peugeot.... ](*,) 
Consumer direct :changes: 
Trading Standards :angel:... reject motorhome advice, then sent letter before action
Practical Motorhome mag.... Replied keep them updated 
MMM mag.... no response
Lembit Opik.... no response
Moneysavingexpert.... interesting posts or three
Consumeractiongroup... nowt
Peugeot forum.... a few replies
Explorer group.......chocolate teapot
Caravan club legal helpline...reject motorhome advice given
MCIA insurer......sue them
Dealer..........at a loss to know what to do!!
VOSA...... not interested at present
Honestjohn.......doesn't deal with motorhomes, go back to dealer for money back.
Lawyer.....awaiting confirmation of next step.

Think thats them all but if I remember more will add :tshirt: 
Err did I mention I found the rest of the emoticons :hypnodisk:


----------



## 107576

Hi Carol 
pretty much the same people i have been in contact with , i am in the process of trying to reject this motor home on the grounds of unsatisfactory quality , as i am getting really fed up with the general lack of responce from supplier , peugeot uk and the local peugeot dealer, had this problem been on a 30k bmw it would have been sorted by now
reguards 
adrian


----------



## geraldandannie

adegroo said:


> had this problem been on a 30k bmw it would have been sorted by now


This is exactly what I think. You can talk all you like about complicated systems, but the bottom line is that we're paying a HECK of a lot of money for these things, and the manufacturing quality is sometimes poor, and the suppliers seem unwilling to accept their responsibilities. We paid £38,000 for our motorhome - compare that to what you can get for an 'ordinary' car, and the quality and support you get.

Gerald

_Edit - not that I'm complaining about the support we're getting from our dealer - they have been great_


----------



## carolgavin

adegroo said:


> Hi Carol
> pretty much the same people i have been in contact with , i am in the process of trying to reject this motor home on the grounds of unsatisfactory quality , as i am getting really fed up with the general lack of responce from supplier , peugeot uk and the local peugeot dealer, had this problem been on a 30k bmw it would have been sorted by now
> reguards
> adrian


Hi Adrian am part of the way down this line myself. Beware it is not easy and could be rather costly. 
One big piece of advice I can give you is to join motorhomefacts so you can have access to all areas including unlimited posts and PMs. Honestly you will never regret it and you can ask all sorts of questions and post all sorts of things and know that someone will be along to help out. It's a great community and for myself and others has been invaluable in our quest for answers and help in the great water feature debate. You only have one free post left ( I think) so if you are not going to join use it wisely!!!!!!!!


----------



## Rapide561

*Carol and fiat*

Carol

You really are the Sevel champion - fight the pirates!

Russell


----------



## 1happy

*Back on thread*

Hi All.
Big welcome to adegroo.
Now we seem to be nicely back on subject can anyone confirm what the Fiat numbers quoted by several members actually pertain to?
I have tried to get any reference to the numbers from Fiat garage and get wall of "no dont know those numbers" or any numbers really!
And anymore info on the steering thingy! 8O 
Cheers m'dears 1happy


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Carol and fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Carol
> 
> You really are the Sevel champion - fight the pirates!
> 
> Russell


Thank you my love I do try, but petal it should be Fiat and Peugeot to be absolutely correct. Just a teeny tiny little fix needed to your heading, go on you know you want to!!

Wait a cotton pickin minute just noticed my last post had no emoticons :crazyeyes: what was I thinking :grab:


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi Carol.
Just a thought,
While your'e in emotions mode...are there any mushrooms.. :?: ..preferebly exploding or with a light coming on just occasionally, 
I would check but do not have broadband  so it takes about a month to see them all 

While we are on the thread of who to contact please dont forget as major possibles :idea: 
Most have great websites and Number 10 has got an "email the PM" :!:

A/ Your MP (I have contacted my MP and the PM)

B/Please sign the petition if you can.

HERE>> http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot

*NB:- Despite rumours to the contrary!
I think we mushrooms are still in for a loooooooong wait!!!!!!
and need to keep the pressure on for an "official announcement"*
1happy


----------



## carolgavin

*A question for you all?*

Have been thinking about this for a wee while now and as the lovely 1happy :happy1: says back to the nitty gritty 
My question is this......if it is so not a problem water getting in from the windscreen scuttle and this is not a fault, why then has every other manufacturer (including previous incarnations of the Fiat/Peugeot ones)built their vehicles so that water DOES NOT AND CANNOT  get in this way :?:

As an example both our nissans do not have this problem.
My dads suzuki does not have this problem
My sisters corsa does not have this problem
My other sisters zafira does not have this problem
My sister in laws golf does not have this problem 
My brother in laws BMW does not have this problem
My friends ducato (2005) does not have this problem
My friends alpha romeo does not have this problem
My friend Agnes Mitsubishi does not have this problem
My Lunar Champ did not have this problem (Fiat 2005)
My CI did not have this problem

Yes I did ask all of the above to go out and check with the tried and tested chuck water and watch method as copywrited by S.W.E.A.R cos today in Sunny Scotland (3.1 3.1 3.1) it did not rain. I am a scientist I have my methods.
Now obviously this is only a snapshot of my friends and relations but so far we are 12.1 (12 don't, 1 does my new Boxer) no clue what this means statistically but it does scientifically speaking show that the windscreen is not meant to dump water onto the engine. The damage then caused, the oxidation (yeah yeah its RUST we know this...oxidation pah!!!) is consequential damage caused by the design which seems to be wrong. Despite the many millions or zillions of hours spent testing or how many years they had to do this.
They harp on as if this is the biggest problem which it isn't, it's secondary to the real problem, the scuttle and it's this they should be concentrating on, rather than some wee engine cover!! Cos lets face it, if the scuttle and the water ain't a problem then why on earth do they need to protect everything under where it leaks. 
Which begs the further question. Why when the water is so not a problem according to them and will have no adverse effects on the injectors why then go to all the trouble to protect them??????

Surely they must be the unluckiest testers ever as it obviously did not rain in all the time they had to road test it, whats the odds on that??

So in conclusion it is not meant to do it, the majority of other ones don't do it ergo it's a problem. Errr is everyone still following me cos it takes some working out :crazyeyes:


----------



## zulurita

I went up to the dealers this morning to see my new motorhome an Auto-Trail Cheyenne 660 on a Fiat x2/50 Heavy chassis 4ton. this was at Chelston motorhomes, Wellington, Somerset.

I must say I was impressed.

1. The motorhome had been parked up for me to see it, as it had arrived from the manufacturers. There had been no attempt to disguise any problems.

2. The service manager came from the service centre down the road to speak to me and show me under the bonnet.

Now although my motorhome has not arrived with the fix IT WAS ALL EXPLAINED TO ME JUST WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO DO.

They are aware of what is involved and know about the part numbers, when I mentioned 4 or 5 might be needed I was told it was more like 18 part numbers.

My injector area has minimal rusting and will be sorted under the fix when they clean this area and will be replacing the washers.
Fuse box looked ok. In fact I expected the engine area to look a whole lot worse ( I know one shouldn't in normal circumstances but since the water ingress came up on this new chassis I did expect it to look worse).

The service manager said all the parts would now be ordered and the cover for the injector area will be fitted to my motorhome by the time I collect the motorhome which will be Nov 2nd.

I must say the dealers have done their very best to reassure me Re this problem and with the service manager explaining what they would be doing.

HOWEVER I am not as impressed with FIAT as they had obviously sent the Fiat chassis to the manufacturers with the windscreen scuttle showing a very obvious gap between the two parts and not just a case of my feeling a gap at the overlap join. This windscreen scuttle was most obviously not fitted properly. BUT this will be done as part of the fix.

As Fiat have now let dealers know about the FIX and part numbers, and my dealers service area know all about this I feel happy to let them sort this out. At least I am spared the hassle of contacting Fiat customer care etc as whatever fix is involved it will be done before I collect the motorhome. 

I am afraid though (for all those technical bods amongst you) I do not know all those part numbers or what each one is for. Other than the special cleansing that is being done to the affected areas, changing washers, protective cover and the fixing of windscreen scuttle. 18 part numbers does suggest quite a bit of work needs doing.

I had a test drive and all ran smoothly. So all in all I felt that I could not reject the motorhome as I felt everything was being done to sort this problem before I collect the motorhome. If I had been told I would have to wait for sometime/months for this fix then I would have rejected it. In fact the service manager reiterated what I had been told the other day, that I did not have to buy the motorhome if I was unhappy and my deposit would be refunded.

So I am much happier now.

PS: It had been raining so I did not have to chuck water at it!


----------



## GerryD

This is difficult as it seems that every time I try to bring something to this forum I am accused of having either a vested interest or anything other than an interested party.
I have today had my vehicle insoected by two long standing qualified technicians:
1. A BMW technician of 14 years standing
2. A qualified person with 27 years in the commercial vehicle repait trade and now a CAA accredited aircraft technician/inspector and airframe inspection
Their opinion of my vehicle is:
a) There is evidence of water on and around the cam cover close to and surrounding the injectors. This does not constitute any mechanical defect and would be resolved using standard anti-oxidant treatment, however to prevent further oxidation would recommend some action to prevent further water introduction.
b) It is highly unlikely that there would be any damage caused by water around the affected area. However it is not desirable. There is no evidence that water is or will affect any electrics as they are located some distance above the pooling and are protected by standard waterproofing shields. It is possible that in very rare cases the oxidation may prevent the removal of the injectors and even rarer cases but not unknown removal may cause accidental removal of the steel liner. If this were to happen then cylinder head re-working would be required. Under normal life it would not be expected to remove the injectors until at least 100,000 miles.
Both made the comment that we are all aware of, these vehicles are being used for a purpose for which they were not originally designed. They were designed as working vehicles and as such they would not suffer any ill effects.
The main issue is that we have to accept the adaptation of a van that was not designed for this purpose. I realise that we have all invested a considerable amount of money in our vehicles, but for us to have the perfect vehicle would possibly double or even treble the cost. Every Motorhome whatever its underpinnings is built on a chassis designed to operate at up to 100,000 miles per year, not the 5000 to 10000 of a motorhome that sits outside your house sometimes for weeks on end.
This has taken a long time for some to get sorted but in the life of a motor vehicle it is still in it's infancy. You only have to look at the recent Fiat recall on the VOSA website for vehicles made as far back as 2001 for confirmation of this.
We appear to be getting some action from Fiat, my posting and that of Peter from Swift and others seem to confirm that. I would be interested to know if all contributors to this forum have contacted Fiat since Wednesday 10th and what their findings are. 
I understand that some contributors have Peugeots and this may well be their sticking point. I notice that Peugeot have not yet issued the recall that Fiat are showing on the VOSA website despite building the identical vehicle. As Citroen and Peugeot are the same company I assume that Citroen owners are also not getting any assistance.
I would fully support any plea to a useful body who could use their weight to influence this matter and note that by midday Friday the Caravan Club had only received one complaint before mine.
United, and with the support of influential bodies, we shall resolve this issue. However making individual protests at the NEC and petitioning the PM cannot be the way ahead.
Personally as you are aware I am not unduly concerned by this issue on my motorhome as my original opinion has not waivered. However, I shall give my full support to any member or group of members who are prepared to follow an organised campaign. Use the letter that has been posted on this forum and get some muscle behind you.
I will offer one piece of advice: with winter coming fast, I would advise that you apply some form of covering to the bottom of the windscreen and over the bonnet vents to prevent and water introduction and freezing. Oh, and by the way, before you do this, run the vehicle to ensure that the engine is dry.

Regards,

Gerry


----------



## Grizzly

GerryD said:


> . Both made the comment that we are all aware of, these vehicles are being used for a purpose for which they were not originally designed. They were designed as working vehicles and as such they would not suffer any ill effects.


Gerry; I'm not sure what is meant by this. Our MH is a working vehicle within the meaning of the word. The fact that it has a motorhome body on the back surely does not affect the windscreen or the front of the cab ? How does having a caravan on the back rather than a panel van affect this issue ?



> Every Motorhome whatever its underpinnings is built on a chassis designed to operate at up to 100,000 miles per year, not the 5000 to 10000 of a motorhome that sits outside your house sometimes for weeks on end.
> 
> Gerry


How does the mileage the vehicle does affect the leaking scuttle ? Ours has been driven down motorways in pouring rain in the same way that a delivery van with the same cab would have been. I would expect that a MH, sitting in the shelter of a house or under cover would suffer _Less_ damage than a busy commercial van.

G


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## 1happy

*Different strokes for different folks!*

Hi GerryD.
You are entitled to try it your way and we ours.
But your continued "put down" of some of our efforts at getting a resolution to this issue over many months is quite frankly rude.

1happy


----------



## GerryD

Grizzly, most Motorhomes spend long periods not in use. If they are not under cover the water will find its way into the bonnet area and not be evaporated by the heat of the engine. Of course if you are able to keep your vehicle under cover then it will not suffer from the water problem whilst it is under cover. However being able to keep a Motorhome under cover is very rare.
To 1happy, I am not trying to put down anybody but we each have our opinion. I would be interested to know the outcome of your call to Fiat since they started to provide recall numbers.
It is becoming clear from recent postings that information is starting to filter to dealers and the post from Zulurita cannot be ignored as it is possibly the most significant posting to date.


----------



## carolgavin

Gerry a couple of things I think personally that your first post on this topic was quite an inflammatory one with your choice of wording. It accused us of animosity and also at best of being like headless chickens!!! You can surely understand why we were more than a little put out by it. Also it did seem kinda coincidental that you were so pro Fiat and seemed to acheive so much with one phone call whilst we were getting nowhere! Your following posts which mentioned you had family in the motoring industry may mean you have access to places we do not hence your wealth of information where once there was none. That said your posts are of course welcome as you have info no one else has been able to glean so at least we have something rather than nothing!!
A few questions arise.
1. Please clarify that the ingress refers to the scuttle defect which is the source of the water. I feel that it is curious in the extreme that these experts did not mention the very thing which is undeniably the source of our problems.
2. If the water in the engine has no adverse effects and you are not at all worried by it why do you feel the need to take action to protect the engine on your own?
3. What does it matter what they were designed for they still drive through the same rain and puddles and we probably look after ours a heck of a lot better than white van man. Just because they are working vehicles it does not prefer on them an immunity to problems such as this one.
4. How do you propose to prevent the ingress in the first place?
5. Surely the manufacturer should advise people of the best method of protecting their van after all it is their design that is causing it. 
6. What earthly difference does it make to whom we raise our complaint?? I cannot undersatnd why you feel the Caravan Club is the be all and end all. I contacted them myself and spoke to their legal advisor who took case history etc etc and said it would be passed on, so far nothing. Our efforts have raised the profile of this problem to those likely to suffer from it as lets face it the manufacturers are still selling them in their current form and not telling people about it. The more places that highlight it the better, the only people who would not like it so well publicised are the manufacturers and their agents.


Edited for clarity!


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat Letter & Warranty anyone ??????????*

Hi.

Does anyone know Re the New Fiat ducato's x250 etc

*A/How long is the warranty 2 or 3 years * :?:

*B/Has anyone got the letter we were told to expect following our phone calls after the "announcement" by Fiat.*

HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=34008

*Anyone Please ?*

I ask because I haven't got my *promised* letter 
and
I think my warranty is only 2 years,but someone has mentioned they have a Swift/Fiat letter giving additional year IE now 3 years!
Many thanks in anticipation
1happy


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## 1946

What a fight you have on your hands. I take my hat off for all the campaigners.
I spoke to the dealer in Germany ttoday, who I always buy from and mentioned the problem to him and he never heard of it. My Adria is made in Slovakia and Fiat must build them better there then here in England. Even the ones from Germany don't seem to have a problem.
Weird but true.

Maddie


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## Grizzly

1946 said:


> I spoke to the dealer in Germany ttoday, who I always buy from and mentioned the problem to him and he never heard of it. My Adria is made in Slovakia and Fiat must build them better there then here in England. Even the ones from Germany don't seem to have a problem..
> 
> Maddie


Thank you Maddie. I think the operative words are " don't seem to have a problem" and " he has never heard of it" This is roughly where the UK market was a few months ago.

We have made something of a study of Fiat X2/50s in Europe and the faulty scuttles are certainly out there in vans with all nationality plates on them. Thank to MHF members the dealers and manufaturers in UK are aware of it now.

G


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## Rapide561

*fiat warranty*

Hi

As far as I know, the Fiat warranty is two years as standard, but some converters pay for a third year. Swift motorhomes have a third year Fiat warranty, but I do not know about the other converters.

Russell


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## SwiftGroup

*x250*



Grizzly said:


> 1946 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I spoke to the dealer in Germany ttoday, who I always buy from and mentioned the problem to him and he never heard of it. My Adria is made in Slovakia and Fiat must build them better there then here in England. Even the ones from Germany don't seem to have a problem..
> 
> Maddie
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Maddie. I think the operative words are " don't seem to have a problem" and " he has never heard of it" This is roughly where the UK market was a few months ago.
> 
> We have made something of a study of Fiat X2/50s in Europe and the faulty scuttles are certainly out there in vans with all nationality plates on them. Thank to MHF members the dealers and manufaturers in UK are aware of it now.
> 
> G
Click to expand...

They are all made in the same factory and will all leak however the LHD vehicles have their drain hole just right of the famous joint looking at the engine. and therefore probably dont leak as much from the centre joint but will leak like all the RHD ones from the other areas.Peter.


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## GerryD

Carol,
I do not claim to have achieved more than anybody else, it is possible more due to the fact that I came into this discussion at the right time and was lucky to phone Fiat just at the time that they had issued a resolution. As I said in an earlier posting, all I did was to take the advice of Peter from Swift.
To try to answer your questions:
1. The water in the bonnet area does refer to water entering from the scuttle. In fact it is evident that the failure is in the seal between the two halves of the plastic moulding.
2. I retain my opinion regarding the effect of the water. However, like you I would like to see any failure corrected
3. Yes all vehicles have to suffer the effects of rain and puddles. The point that I am trying to make is that if the vehicle were used in the way that it is designed, that is as a commercial vehicle in daily use, the water would not build up and therefore would not be so evident.
4. I do not propose to prevent the ingress, but tomorrow I shall take the vehicle for a run to dry the engine. Then when it is cool, I shall spray the injectors with copper grease and the cam covers with WD40. I may also consider spraying the cam covers with lacquer to prevent any possibility of water touching any of the metal parts.
5. The manufacture should advise customers of the best method of preventing any deterioration. But as I have already stated they can only do so after they are satisfied that they are able to effect a cure. This takes time.
6. I have only suggested trying to use the Caravan Club or the Camoing Club as they are highly respected bodies who have a voice in all sectors of the industry and would be best at putting forward a case.
I have only shown favour to Fiat in that in my experience in this matter they have provided me with the answers that I needed. I am sure that if I had had the protracted history that you would have experienced I too would be angry.
At the end of the day all I have tried to do is to bring another side to the discussion and you cannot object to my bringing that side as a balance to the forum. 
I do feel that my postings have to some extent been vindicated by others who are now reporting that they are now receiving information that is giving them some indication of an official rectification to this matter.


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## Zebedee

Nobody has any more information on the "Camping Car" chassis mentioned by GerryD earlier???

I agree with Carol. I'm not sure what it is, but I want one. :roll: 

Dave


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## GerryD

Dave,
The Camping Car chassis was developed by Fiat. It has a wider rear trach for extra stability in corners and stiffer rear springs. According to the November issue of Which Motorcaravan Magazine it is now available with the Peugeot badge, although many converters who use the Peugeot chassis use the Alko chassis on their premium ranges, which is as good as or according to some superior to the Fiat. The main benefactors will be those with the Peugeot on a budget range.
Regards,
Gerry


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## Zebedee

Thanks Gerry.

I'll have a look underneath tomorrow, and report back any info that might interest other Pug owners.

Dave


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## spykal

Hi

This picture of the New low chassis was scanned from a Swift "New generation" catalogue that I picked up at the NEC at one of the 2 last shows there ( Oct 2006 or Feb 2007). It clearly shows the new chassis cab and the special features designed for using this chassis as a base for a motorhome... for eg. note the cab cutout.

Swift also mentioned in this brochure that the Alko chassis is also being made available on some models.

Mike


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## Zebedee

Thanks for the piccy Mike.

I'll have a look later when the dew has dried out a bit.

Do you know if that's the "Camping Car" chassis GerryD was talking about? (Not that I'm too bothered either way.)

Cheers

Dave


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## spykal

Hi

Further to the picture in my previous post here is a clip of the editorial in the brochure:

" Meanwhile at Sevel Sud Val di Sangro ( Europes largest light commercial vehicle factory) in eastern central Italy's Abruzzo region, a plan was taking shape for a radical new base vehicle concept: the motorhome-friendly chassis. In 2003, Fiat established a dedicated motorhome team, to comprehensively cover every aspect of the motorhome side of the Fiat Ducato business, from research and development through to aftersales. In July 2004 the top-secret X250 was revealed in the flesh to Swift. In February 2005, work began on Fiat's dedicated motorhome chassis production line."

So from this it appers that the motorhome chassis is made on a different production line. Production line practice could explain why the "White Van Man" deliverynvehicle has not seen the same problems. Has anyone examined a few "White Vans" to check this out.

Mike

edit PS



Sanatogen said:


> Do you know if that's the "Camping Car" chassis GerryD was talking about? (Not that I'm too bothered either way.)


That's why I spent some time scanning and posting it and the above info. I do not own one of the problem vehicles ...my van is model with the original water feature that was responsible for doing serious damage to many motorhomes... gearbox failures from water ingress and cross member corrosion from overflowing battery acid.... luckily mine had these problems sorted out before it was used. So it is Deju Vu for many of us.


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## Zebedee

Well spotted Mike. *This gives us potentially useful ammunition I think .* 

*As our base vehicles are built on a separate production line, it is surely reasonable to refute the argument that they are "being used for a purpose other than that originally intended".

They are clearly intended for the motorhome market, and as such one could reasonably expect some specifically focussed attention (and modification where necessary) to have gone into the design and manufacturing processes.*

Nice one!! What do our fellow crusaders think?

Cheers

Dave

P.S. I specifically asked if it is the "Camping Car" chassis because I got my Peugeot in May and it certainly has a lowered chassis (and may be the same as your photo). GerryD says that Peugeot have only been using the "CC" chassis for the last month. Confusing, or what.

Thanks again for your help.


----------



## carolgavin

spykal said:


> "White Van Man" deliverynvehicle has not seen the same problems. Has anyone examined a few "White Vans" to check this out.
> 
> Mike
> 
> .


Yes, my friend is a mechanic LGV HGV he sees lots of 'white vans' and he has looked at quite a few and has said they also have the scuttle problem.
Thanks for posting pictures and the info in your posts.

Oh re warranty my Peugeot has a 2 year manufacturer warranty plus a further years UK Peugeot dealer warranty making 3 years in total.


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## urbanracer

http://www.parkers.co.uk/vans/reviews/Review.aspx?model=7638

Above is a link to a review, when this was first posted there were engine pictures that showed the water problem,these have now been removed.

This problem is going to apply to all vans as it going to take some time from leaving the factory until its is first put into use.

In the area where I live there are several motorhome home dealers and on every engine I have looked at Fiat/Peugeot never seen a Citreon, all had signs of water ingress.

Next week I will try to have a look at some new commercial vans.


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## carolgavin

Sanatogen said:


> Well spotted Mike. *This gives us potentially useful ammunition I think .*
> 
> *As our base vehicles are built on a separate production line, it is surely reasonable to refute the argument that they are "being used for a purpose other than that originally intended".
> 
> They are clearly intended for the motorhome market, and as such one could reasonably expect some specifically focussed attention (and modification where necessary) to have gone into the design and manufacturing processes.*
> 
> Nice one!! What do our fellow crusaders think?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


Morning Dave I think you are correct in what you say above. We have been racking our brains to remember what the dealer told us about the new Peugeot Boxer and are pretty convinced that we were tld it had been specifically designed for motorhomes. Whether that was typical salesmans pitch or truth I know not but I will find out :wink: :wink: :wink:

Joe they are still there just need to click on winscreen one then engine bay!! Have attached one


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## christopherobin

Morning

Yes my son in laws White van has the same problem!

Talking of motorhome chassis






Chris


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## Zebedee

Morning Carol.

Apart from the confusion about whether or not it is the actual "Camping Car" chassis, it is certainly designed for the motorhome market. I've been to the Autosleepers factory and the chassis (Hmmm. What's the plural of chassis?)  they use are definitely like the ones Spykal just showed in his picture.

It's not all that important, but it seems there might be several chassis in use. Peugeot's own that we have, Alko and Camping Car, to name but three.

Hmmmm??

Dave


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## sallytrafic

Sanatogen said:


> ...clippd
> [
> 
> They are clearly intended for the motorhome market, and as such one could reasonably expect some specifically focussed attention (and modification where necessary) to have gone into the design and manufacturing processes.[/b]
> 
> Nice one!! What do our fellow crusaders think?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave
> 
> ..clipped


Did you see this thread http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-34502.html

where I was asking for the same thing only to find the SEVEL have been doing it.
........ apparently


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## Zebedee

Fascinating video Chris. Wish I spoke German!!

My ISRI seats haven't got half as many knobs, levers and adjustments as those in the film.

I want my money back. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: 

Thanks

Dave


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## geraldandannie

Loved the video. Interesting to see that bottom of the 5 in this *German* test came Mercedes, just behind VW :wink:

Gerald


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## Zebedee

Hi Frank

You said, "_Did you see this thread . . . . where I was asking for the same thing only to find the SEVEL have been doing it. 
........ apparently_ "

Yes, I did see it but there have been so many, and I'm not helping by stirring this one up.   

I think you must be correct. The Sevel seems to have been coming off the separate production line right from the start.

Ah well. That's one minor mystery solved.

Cheers

Dave


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## quartet

*Too high*

Interestng that most seats in the german video were zu hoch (too high)
I've noticed that too! apart from in the Renault Master which I thought looked as though it handles better and Ford looked to be the worst on this score
Barry


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## christopherobin

I'm still waiting to get that letter from Fiat


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## 1happy

*Fiat 2007 Wipers having a bath too!!! another Fault???*

Hi christopherobin.
So thats two of us who haven't recieved the "promised" letter then! :roll: 
I want to know if anyone has got it...what does it say? 

Also I wonder if there is a prize for most hilarious post?
for me its between your's above and Sanatogen's S.W.E.A.R club!

Also just to say the Petition is up to 126 signatures 8) 
And sadly there are more new eligible members of the S.W.E.A.R club.

SEE HERE>> http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot

Thanks for the giggle mate. :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Catherine


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## 96299

Haven`t received my letter either.  Nothing surprises me with FiART anymore.Loosing the faith.

steve


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## carolgavin

Just been reading back through the thread to see if I missed any posts as obviously this seems to ba a fast moving thread :book: Found a couple or four things that I personally find to be quite interesting and wonder if you all have an opinion.

First off the statement from Fiat kindly supplied by don madge on a (no offence intended) little known (to me anyway before the wonder of google!!) website. Why was this not circulated first and foremost via Peter Swift and then here as the previous one was???Again we have already had info from Fiat regarding a letter which is supposed to be winging its way to all affected and we know how reliable that proved to be..

Secondly they are not worried about the water on the injectors yet have still fashioned a cover to protect it...Why????

Thanks to gerryd's experts we know that water is not desirable and that there is a definate chance however unlikely that future removal of the injectors will prove difficult and costly to us as rebore would ultimately be a necessity. Doesn't this prove in itself that they should replace these parts as it doesn't matter HOW unlikely it is to happen the fact that it can proves damage by the water. The fact that it is a possibility proves it's undesirability.

Zulurita posted she had gone to see her new motorhome and guess what Fiat are still producing these vans with the problem DESPITE definately knowing all there is to know about it. This is terrible as again despite their many assurances to the contrary what exactly HAVE they done to prevent this problem reaching it's ultimate destination... the consumer on whose shoulders this problem firmly now rests.

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the Fiat/Peugeot dealer have to PDI their vehicle before it is registered and if so isn't this where this problem should be recognised and not firmly ignored????

I personally am firmly of the opinion despite everything I have read from Fiat and the complete silence from Peugeot that we are continuing on the corect course by publicising this anywhere and everywhere we can.

A final plea to all those going to NEC please please ask the dealers, look at the engines, how many are covered?? Take photos post them on site e-mail them to me if you would rather.

As I suspect most will be covered, again isn't it interesting how the dealers all have them to enable them to sell more of these problems on???? Absolutely *no* disrespect to any dealer caught up in this intended, you do what you have to do, to ensure your and your employees living were I in your position I have no doubt I would do the same!! Whilst they still do not address *''scuttlegate''* properly.

Please note that this is only my personal opinion having read everything I possibly can from anyone who has taken the time to post either in the positive or the negative. Are we any further forward............no idea :roll:

Fiat/Peugeot talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words and as yet you have taken none. You can say all you want but whilst you actually *DO* nothing how many of us this time next year will still have *your* vehicles???????


----------



## Zebedee

Hi Carol

Very useful post. Sums it all up nicely.

You must be joking with this bit however, no offence intended of course.  "_Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the Fiat/Peugeot dealer have to PDI their vehicle before it is registered and if so isn't this where this problem should be recognised and not firmly ignored_????"

On our first trip with the new truck I zapped the central locking (on a French supermarket car park) and the nearside hazard light flashed, along with the high intensity fog light on the offside. The fog light and indicator light wires on that side had been cross connected. Simple enough to change over, but *how could that possibly have been missed if they had done anything resembling a PDI test*?

I think this may be part of the reason our saga is so long running. A few warranty claims against Fiat for fixing the scuttle during PDI might have focussed their minds a bit, especially if they had started coming in way back in February! :?

Cheers

Dave


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi Carol.
I have read your latest post with great interest and as usual you have spent a great deal of time & effort checking the thread/s & summarising the current position of the issue/s 8)

I for one would like to do a bit of back slapping and say well done for your clarification & I hope we have some official answers soon. 

I have to agree also with you & Sanatogen that missing this at PDI leaves the dealers in a poor light.

Point of interest:-I think one of the people signing the petition says when he saw the water on the engine at hand over he was told that it was because the vehicle had just been washed! 8O .........I hope I am not misquoting but it is an interesting point for him to make in any potential "sale of goods act" legal case against his dealer.

I do have another point to make & shall do so shortly
But I do not want to detract from your brilliant post & current question's.
Also I am trying to be careful not to upset anyone,which appears to be the case at the moment  
Regards Catherine


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi,
I had been thinking for a couple of days how to ask this question without offending anyone.  
Then it was made more difficult and fraught because I was reported on two consecutive days & warned about personal attacks!   

So with *no malice to Zulurita* (whom I have met "on the road" and liked enormously)  or anyone else for that matter.

I would like to know how her dealer can promise 18 parts supplied & fitted Re:- the fix by November 2nd. 8O 
When my authorised Garage and someone high up in Fiat can only say that most of the parts (16 I am told) are currently unavailable :roll: 
And that because we would like to travel abroad in December cannot promise the parts by then & it is best to continue with our plans and have the work done on our return next March/April! 8O

Why the difference?  
*Has anyone else been told when their parts will be available?* :idea: :idea:

Oooooops. Forgot to mention.
To whoever it was that I offended enough to report me.
I am sorry if anything I said was offensive.
The problem is that feelings can run high and many weeks of speaking to Fiat has obviously clouded my normally clear thinking.
So I apologise again unreservedly & I hope that I cause you no further offence  
Regards 1happy


----------



## geraldandannie

carolgavin said:


> Whilst they still do not address *''scuttlegate''* properly.


 :lol: :lol: Nice one, Carol - a great bit of humour.

FYI, the motorhome Rita saw may have left the Fiat factory many months ago, and been sent to the M/H manufacturer, where it could have been sitting around in a field for a while before they started work on it. This is why we sometimes have the problems with the Fiat warranty - Fiat start the warranty when it's sent to 'their' customer, the motorhome builder. When it comes to us, it may be some months, even a year, later, which is why it's a good idea to get the Fiat warranty restarted, through the dealer.

Our motorhome was sent for a Fiat PDI about a fortnight before we picked it up. Obviously, nothing was done or said at that time. :evil:

The motorhome dealers are piggy-in-the-middle here - responsible to us, their customer, but unable to fix the problem. However, I wonder what would have happened if they had got on to this earlier, and made stronger representations to Fiat some months ago?

Gerald


----------



## zulurita

I can understand how you are feeling 1 happy and people are still being told different things.

i.e. Fiat saying 5 part numbers involved to some people.

my dealers service centre manager saying 18 part numbers involved 

and you are quoted 16 part numbers.

The service manager DID NOT SAY there would be a delay in getting my motorhome fixed and seemed confident it would be done for when I collect the motorhome. However I guess that remains to be seen. 

Perhaps they were hoping I would not buy the motorhome if they were willing to offer me my deposit back! However I felt they had the courtesy to get the service manager to speak to me and explain what they were going to do to rectify this problem. 

In all fairness to my dealers they are trying to sort this out. If there wasn't a fix or I had been told that it would not be done buy the time I collect the motorhome or indeed would be weeks/months away then I would not have bought the motrhome. Because of their assurances I felt I had to put my faith/trust in them.

HOWEVER FIAT should hang their head in shame as the windscreen scuttle as viewed by me should never have left Italy like that!!!


----------



## geraldandannie

zulurita said:


> If there wasn't a fix or I had been told that it would not be done buy the time I collect the motorhome or indeed would be weeks/months away then I would not have bought the motrhome.


The danger is that they know that. I hope they are telling the truth to you, although no one seems to know what the real situation is. I trust they're not stringing you along, in the hope that the fix will be available soon.

Gerald


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi Rita.
Thankyou for taking my posting in the spirit in which it was intended.  
My "beef" is and always has been with Fiat for treating us like mushrooms and I suspect that there would be no "fix" if it weren't for the member activity here on MHF.  
Regards Catherine


----------



## carolgavin

*Scuttlegate*



Sanatogen said:


> You must be joking with this bit however, no offence intended of course.  "_Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the Fiat/Peugeot dealer have to PDI their vehicle before it is registered and if so isn't this where this problem should be recognised and not firmly ignored_????"


Fabby dave I can add comedienne to my ever growing list of talents and here is another lyric adaptation all together now to Abbas I have a dream!!!!!

This could be our theme tune!!!!!

I have a dream a van to bring
To fix the scuttle is everything
If you see the wonder of silicone spray
You'll need to reapply It as its bound to fail

I'll believe in Fiat
no water in every van I see
I'll believe in peugeot
when my van is right for me
I'll stop the stream I have a dream

I have a dream a fantasy 
to help me through this reality
And my windscreen scuttle makes it all leak free
when they get round to fix it or replace it for me

I'll believe in Fiat
no water in every van I see 
I'll believe in Peugeot
when my van is finally right for me 
I'll stop that stream I have a dream

I have a van a van to bring
I cannot now cope with anything
If you see me wondering when I will be leak free
Sometime in the future is when I hope to be

I'll believe in Fiat
no water in every van I see 
I'll believe in Peugeot
when my van is finally right for me 
I'll stop that stream I have a dream


----------



## zulurita

Hi Catherine, Gerald,

Yes Iam also hopping (and quietly PRAYING or not so quietly :wink: ) that all will be ok.

They and FIAT will get a lot of grief if it turns out not to be as they told me!


----------



## Zebedee

"_Fabby dave I can add comedienne to my ever growing list of talents and here is another lyric adaptation all together now to Abbas I have a dream!!!!! _"

I was worried there for a minute Carol. Thought you said "_Flabby_". :roll:

Great take on the Abba classic. They don't make groups like them any more do they!!

Got to keep the sense of humour going or we scuttlegate victims would all be looking for a cliff to jump off. 

Cheers

Dave


----------



## urbanracer

I was wondering last week if the LHD scuttle was a mirror image of our right hand drives,if it was then we would have 2 large drains one on each side at the ends of the scuttle this then would take into account the camber problem.
On contacting Peter @ Swift he told me its not a mirror image but the drain on the LHD's is when looking at the engine just right of centre,so at least if its feasable to fit this part of the LHD scuttle and it would then drain away water better.There might be problems if on LHD's the servo might be in the way.
The other problem the centre joint and beveling to the scuttle on some vans as we know also needs sorting.
Going back to the camber its strange how we have the drain on the left offside and LHD's on the right nearside logically it should be the other way round.

The other problem the air inlet with the large drain at the rear holds water they could make here a dip in the centre of the moulding to get the water down its drain.

Peter as you know is working on ideas he has his ski run and similar to what I mentioned above has been working on getter better drainage,

He sent me a few pics


----------



## carol

carolgavin said:


> J
> 
> Zulurita posted she had gone to see her new motorhome and guess what Fiat are still producing these vans with the problem DESPITE definately knowing all there is to know about it. This is terrible as again despite their many assurances to the contrary what exactly HAVE they done to prevent this problem reaching it's ultimate destination... the consumer on whose shoulders this problem firmly now rests.


Carol forgive me, I have snipped a lot..... but surely this statement is not correct.

We all know, and see at places like Avonmouth where vehicles and chassis remain unsold and stuck on docksides, so the chassis we get may well be a lot older than the motorhome,... there have been cases where people have bought a new motorhome to discover within weeks that their warranty on the base vehicle expired, because it was built on later than expected, not sold early whatever...

I am sure there are vehicles on production lines being built and many probably unbuilt still with the problem....

It is only when hopefully more like zulurita will have also realised before delivery and get it sorted will things be done.

So I reckon there are a lot more out there still not delivered,...

Sorry, but I do think the campaign is excellent and I keep watching.

Carol


----------



## SwiftGroup

*fix*



urbanracer said:


> I was wondering last week if the LHD scuttle was a mirror image of our right hand drives,if it was then we would have 2 large drains one on each side at the ends of the scuttle this then would take into account the camber problem.
> On contacting Peter @ Swift he told me its not a mirror image but the drain on the LHD's is when looking at the engine just right of centre,so at least if its feasable to fit this part of the LHD scuttle and it would then drain away water better.There might be problems if on LHD's the servo might be in the way.
> The other problem the centre joint and beveling to the scuttle on some vans as we know also needs sorting.
> Going back to the camber its strange how we have the drain on the left offside and LHD's on the right nearside logically it should be the other way round.
> 
> The other problem the air inlet with the large drain at the rear holds water they could make here a dip in the centre of the moulding to get the water down its drain.
> 
> Peter as you know is working on ideas he has his ski run and similar to what I mentioned above has been working on getter better drainage,
> 
> He sent me a few pics


All Swift production now has a sealed joint plus the rubber trim running along the bottom screen is sealed along its length we are now looking at a fix for the two small holes at either end but this will entail taking the two screws out of the small triangular panels and removing them.As can be seen on the photo we will put a drain hole on the N/side to stop water collecting there if the MH is leaning to the N/Side.All of this will be discussed with Fiat.Just a point on Peugeot they are in a difficult position as really they have to rely on Fiat as their proportion of MH production is a fraction of Fiats and I believe that everyone is waiting for the ultimate fix from the engineers.I have told Fiat a small statement from them would go a long way in helping all of us through a difficult situation.Peter.


----------



## carolgavin

carol said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> J
> 
> Zulurita posted she had gone to see her new motorhome and guess what Fiat are still producing these vans with the problem DESPITE definately knowing all there is to know about it. This is terrible as again despite their many assurances to the contrary what exactly HAVE they done to prevent this problem reaching it's ultimate destination... the consumer on whose shoulders this problem firmly now rests.
> 
> 
> 
> Carol forgive me, I have snipped a lot..... but surely this statement is not correct.
> 
> We all know, and see at places like Avonmouth where vehicles and chassis remain unsold and stuck on docksides, so the chassis we get may well be a lot older than the motorhome,... there have been cases where people have bought a new motorhome to discover within weeks that their warranty on the base vehicle expired, because it was built on later than expected, not sold early whatever...
> 
> I am sure there are vehicles on production lines being built and many probably unbuilt still with the problem....
> 
> It is only when hopefully more like zulurita will have also realised before delivery and get it sorted will things be done.
> 
> So I reckon there are a lot more out there still not delivered,...
> 
> Sorry, but I do think the campaign is excellent and I keep watching.
> 
> Carol
Click to expand...

Hello other Carol I fear I may be slightly confused, as I think you and I are agreeing!  
My point made clumsily above is that Fiat/Peugeot in full knowledge of this problem continue to pass on what is ostensibly a brand new vehicle to the consumer despite not having rectified the problem at source. This applies to any vehicle sitting in yards and currently in manufacture as you say. So absolutely yes many more still to come, as you say they are still sitting waiting to be built on many months after manufacture.
No need for apologies best to clarify anything that seems incorrect so Ta Muchos petal 
The other carol


----------



## urbanracer

Here's another pic Peter sent this one shows one of the small triangles as Peter has talked about above.










If we joined all the drains together and connected to the water tank that would make our Fiats and Peugeots the first green and self sufficient camper vans in the market.

I wonder if thats what there were thinking about? Not!


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Brilliant*



urbanracer said:


> Here's another pic Peter sent this one shows one of the small triangles as Peter has talked about above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we joined all the drains together and connected to the water tank that would make our Fiats and Peugeots the first green and self sufficient camper vans in the market.
> 
> I wonder if thats what there were thinking about? Not!


That is a billiant idea!Peter.


----------



## Zebedee

*Reply from Caravan Club*

This just arrived from the Caravan Club.

_"Dear Dave

Thanks for your email which I have forwarded onto our Deputy Editor - George Hinton.

Regards

Sandie Govier

The Caravan Club Magazine"_

Regards

Dave


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi Dave.
Good work RE: the Caravan Club.  
I am not a member and therefore presumed contacting them was not an option for me.  
Hope others who are members do contact them. 8) 
I hope they look into the way Fiat & Peugeot are dealing with this issue.  
*Is there still no one who HAS received the promised Fiat letter?* :roll: 
*Also does anyone know anymore about the steering thingy checks?*
Petition signatures now at 126 & a large proportion have the right "features" for S.W.E.A.R membership.. Still laughing by the way :lol: 
HERE>> http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot
1happy


----------



## geraldandannie

A quick update:

I've just received a phone call from my local Fiat dealer. He said he's had more details about the problem from Fiat, and is ordering the parts necessary (no details, I'm afraid), and will call me when they're in.

One strange thing - he asked me whether I'd made the original complaint, or whether the dealer had raised it. I bored him with a precis of the story so far.

Gerald


----------



## Zebedee

Gerald said, "_One strange thing - he asked me whether I'd made the original complaint, or whether the dealer had raised it."_

Hi Gerald.

Interesting comment indeed. Does it suggest that Fiat (spits, grinds teeth!!!) are more concerned about M/H dealer, or owner opinion?

Did you get any impression which group might carry more clout? Could be useful if the campaign founders at the post. :roll:

Cheers

Dave


----------



## geraldandannie

Sanatogen said:


> Did you get any impression which group might carry more clout? Could be useful if the campaign founders at the post. :roll:


Not really. I told them it had been brought to my attention by an online motorhome community, and I's asked the dealer beforehand. Then it was me who had reported it to the dealer, who had contacted the agent local to them, who had contacted the agent local to me (if you follow me :roll: ).

We have a number of MHF members going to the NEC (I'm there on Saturday), so hopefully we'll get some information from the horse's mouth. I know Peter from Swift is doing sterling work pushing Fiat, but I do worry that Fiat will concentrate on solutions for Swift (and now, Autocruise), and not for plebs like you or I.

Anyhow, if I don't know any more by the time I leave home early n Saturday am, I shall certainly be visiting both Chausson and Fiat to ask what's happening and, more importantly, WHEN.

Grald


----------



## Zebedee

Thanks for that Gerald

Just to complicate matters I'm Peugeot based, not Fiat, but no doubt in the fullness of time they will all be singing from the same hymnsheet.

What the tune will be however is still anybody's guess. "Lead Guiding Light" perhaps, or will they be saving that one for a couple of years time, when the corrosion from the waterfalls causes all the fuses to blow every 10 minutes. :roll: :roll: :roll: 

Cheers

Dave


----------



## GerryD

Dave,
Now that Swift have Autocruise, Peter has intimated in another discussion thread that he will now start to bring pressure on Peugeot.


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*



geraldandannie said:


> A quick update:
> I've just received a phone call from my local Fiat dealer. He said he's had more details about the problem from Fiat, and is ordering the parts necessary (no details, I'm afraid), and will call me when they're in.
> 
> One strange thing - he asked me whether I'd made the original complaint, or whether the dealer had raised it. I bored him with a precis of the story so far.
> 
> Gerald


Hi Gerald,
The above makes me wonder if dealer asks for parts if they will come quicker! :roll: 
I only ask because Re:- my earlier post regarding parts not available & to get work done on our return in the spring!!!

Any further news anyone on the steering checks?
1happy


----------



## Grizzly

Please will someone post a definitive list of the recalls that are out there for new ( ie X250 Multijet) Fiat vans ?

We know about the water ingress and have kept up to date with that - we were almost the first people to notice it - but we have missed the steering problems and the others that seem to be coming out of the woodwork.

Thanks

G


----------



## geraldandannie

I've just had another call from the Fiat centre.

He had a bit of trouble locating our van from the reg. no. (it was only registered just over a week ago), but I had the VIN no. on me, and he located it OK with that.

I asked for more details on the work to be done. He said there were another 4 cautions on the van apart from the water ingress problem. I asked what would be involved with the WI - he read off a screen, and said "it looks like we just have to seal a few areas to stop the water getting in".

More info as soon as I know.

Gerald


----------



## Grizzly

geraldandannie said:


> I asked for more details on the work to be done. He said there were another 4 cautions on the van apart from the water ingress problem.
> Gerald


"Cautions" as in what Gerald ?

G


----------



## geraldandannie

Cautions are a level below recalls, AFAIK. Recalls have to be published on the VOSA website, and owners have to be contacted.

I think it means "thiings to do whilst the van is in the workshop". He didn't elaborate, and I was surrounded by noisy children :evil: I suggested that the steering box inspection was one of them, and he said "yes, I think that's one of them, but some of them are new, and not on the system yet."

Unfortunately, we're away from this Saturday for about a week, so I doubt anything will happen until after half term now.

Gerald


----------



## Grizzly

geraldandannie said:


> I think it means "thiings to do whilst the van is in the workshop". He didn't elaborate, and I was surrounded by noisy children :evil: I suggested that the steering box inspection was one of them, and he said "yes, I think that's one of them, but some of them are new, and not on the system yet."
> 
> Gerald


Thanks Gerald. These are all to do with the new Fiat X250 engines vans I take it ?

I suppose we have evidence that these new vans were actually built by Fiat-trained engineers and were not practice pieces produced by students doing evening classes in Turin Tech or similar ?

Good grief...what next ! 

G


----------



## 1happy

Hi Grizzly
1st mention of steering here>>
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-314669-steering.html+check+cheque#314669

I am very concerned at the total lack of clarity on what is "the fix" & just the mention of checks on steering without more info is worrying.
Regards C.


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi Grizzly & others
*copy & paste below to save clicking on link mentioned in the link above* 8) 
Been told before people dont always bother with links :roll: 
.........................................................................................................
Water ingress to engine compartment on new Fiat and Peugeot
We have heard reports, from some owners, of a problem with new Fiat Ducato/Peugeot Boxer based motorhomes where water leaks through at the centre of the plastic tray at the bottom of the windscreen. The tray is in two halves and it seems that the seal is ineffective. The water leaks into the engine bay and collects around the injectors causing corrosion.

We now understand that this problem is being addressed by Fiat Technical in Italy and the position is that current production is being fitted with an engine cover, Fiat is looking to release a retrofit for existing vehicles in October.

We asked Fiat, Peugeot, Swift Motorhomes, Autocruise and Auto-Trail for their comments. We are indebted to Colin Treacher from Auto-Trail for giving us up to date information. Fiat and Autocruise told us that our query would be passed on to the appropriate department but we have since heard nothing from them.

One owner has told us that, after contacting Fiat Customer Services, they were told that in mid October Fiat will recall the Ducato Camper owners that reported the problem and fit their modification kits.

See below for information on a recall to be issued by Fiat. This was forwarded to us by Auto-Trail, sadly we continue to hear nothing further from Fiat on the issue, despite several requests.

Official response from Peugeot:

Leonie Douglas, Customer Care Manager, told us:

"If a customer experiences a problem with water ingress into the engine bay of a new Peugeot Boxer bases vehicle, they should contact their nearest Peugeot dealer who will arrange for the vehicle to be inspected and any necessary rectification completed."

Response from Peter Smith, Chairman of Swift Holdings:

The position with Fiat is that they are first of all arranging to fit engine covers to all product (something they should have done from the start for the motorhome market). I believe this will be done over the next few months as production is now arriving at Swift with them fitted.

The water gets onto the engine bay from a number of points, the main one the centre joint which is poorly sealed, it also gets in by virtue of the rubber deflector which runs along the bottom of the windscreen which does not fit tightly along its length, i.e. it ripples in places and the water floods in there.

The two other problem areas are around the hinges where Fiat have just drilled small holes to let the water flow away by virtue of running into the engine bay but these get blocked!

It's a bloody awful design which I believe they are rapidly (Italian Speed) working on a fix. They are under constant pressure from me to make an announcement but all you get is a wall of silence. They are nice people but they have not handled this well.

Swift are sealing along the length of the rubber deflector and sealing the centre joint. We are also working on a fix for the two small drain holes, this is until Fiats fix arrives sometime in the future!

Fiat have released the following announcement:

UK Release

We have received reports of oxidation to the injector body on the cylinder head of some vehicles built on a New Fiat Ducato base. The entry of water into the engine compartment is taken into consideration at the design stage - and the engine and its associated parts are built to withstand such effects when a new vehicle is developed. In addition to the millions of kilometres of tests carried out under all weather conditions, the engine and its peripherals are specifically tested against water infiltration under extreme conditions, including fords, natural and artificial rain, water jets, immersion of the most sensitive elements etc. to certify their water resistance.

The new Ducato complies 100% with this certification procedure and is not therefore affected by any short or long term technical or operational risk associated with water infiltration into the engine compartment .

The presence of water on the injector bodies was not considered critical because it is a surface effect that does not cause any operational problems to the engine.

We have nevertheless taken into account reports received from some customers on this subject with the usual attention that Fiat devotes to its Motorhome customers and have prepared a special operating procedure to improve this aspect. The problem will be resolved by applying a substance to the injector body to remove any oxidation present and provide additional protection to prevent the problem arising again while also performing an operation to reduce the amount of water entering through the engine guard.

Fiat will be contacting customers over the next few days in order to carry out a minor technical check on the power steering box and the windscreen wiper motor. We plan to take advantage of these checks to carry out the above operation as well, free of charge.

For further information, please contact our Camping Care Customer Care number; 00800 3428 111 (back up +39 0244412160).

Please note that, although the effect described above is unsightly, we pay the greatest attention to the effects of water on the new Ducato. All the possible impacts of water are taken into consideration and guaranteed by having 90% of the bodywork galvanised on both sides and other operations, such as the application of paint even to less visible parts such as the dashboard support beam.

Yours sincerely Fiat Professional

[last edited 13/10/07]

.......................................................................................................
Regards C


----------



## geraldandannie

Grizzly said:


> These are all to do with the new Fiat X250 engines vans I take it ?


I presume so. They apply to my van, which is one, but it was identified by the last 8 digits of the VIN no., so I wouldn't want to say that they applied to _all_ X250 vans.

Over the weekend, I was crawling all over my motorhome (trying to find the engine battery, trying to find and remove the jack, etc) - looking under panels, unscrewing things that had screws in them. I would say that the bits that I saw were very well made and sturdily constructed and assembled. The thing to remember is that, although the chassis might be different, from the cab seats forward it's pretty much identical to the commercial 'delivery' vans, and therefore has to be reliable to compete with the Mercedes Sprinter and the new Transits.

That's why the mess with the scuttle is almost inexplicable :evil: :evil:

Gerald


----------



## Grizzly

The plot thickens....

I have just phoned the Fiat number given in the Fiat Release that iHappy pasted above ( it is actually 111*1* at the end of the number )

We had already registered our water ingress problems with them earlier in the year but I said that I had just seen this Fiat Release and wanted to know what was meant by " a minor technical check on the power steering box..." as this was the first I had heard of it.

The very helpful young lady at the other end had not heard of it either and neither had her colleague. She understands my concerns that there might be something, however minor, amiss with the power steering and will get on to Head Office asap to find out what is going on.

G


----------



## Telbell

Water ingress? Steering Box? Windscreen Wiper Motor? Going to NEC This week to have a look around but it's a bit of-putting  :roll:


----------



## geraldandannie

Telbell said:


> Going to NEC This week to have a look around but it's a bit of-putting  :roll:


I wouldn't worry about it. You'll probably find every new design has this sort of 'issue' - things to check once the vans are coming off the production line, when parts and manufacturing processes are different to when they make the prototypes.

The Fiat Ducato is a cracking van - powerful, smooth, quiet, and it will be well worth the hassle when all this is sorted out.

If you do happen to buy soon, just make sure all the 'cautions' are dealt with when the van part is PDI'd by Fiat.

Gerald


----------



## GerryD

Telbell,
Don't be put off, go to the NEC confident in the fact that if you buy a MH based on the Fiat or Peugeot chassis you are buying the best base vehicle currently available.
Any issues can and will be righted but it can take time. There is not a motor vehicle on the road that has not required some intervention or modification during it's life.


----------



## Zebedee

Gerald said, "_If you do happen to buy soon, just make sure all the 'cautions' are dealt with when the van part is PDI'd by Fiat."_

If my recent experience is anything to go by (with Peugeot, not Fiat I must point out) I would suggest you insist on being present at the PDI. My driver's side rear indicator was cross wired with the high intensity fog lamp. :roll: :roll:

Did they actually perform a PDI at all? If they did, I reckon they just counted the wheels and thought that would do. :evil:

Regards

Dave

(Edited to agree with Gerald.) It really is a cracking van. Don't be put off by the teething troubles, annoying though they are!


----------



## johnc

GerryD said:


> Telbell,
> Don't be put off, go to the NEC confident in the fact that if you buy a MH based on the Fiat or Peugeot chassis you are buying the best base vehicle currently available.
> Any issues can and will be righted but it can take time. There is not a motor vehicle on the road that has not required some intervention or modification during it's life.


*I am sorry Gerry although I share your comments that the basic van is very good, the service from Fiat and Peugeot is beyond belief. I just cannot see how you can defend their approach to this problem. *


----------



## Polo

Here here JohnC. Couldn't agree more


----------



## carolgavin

johnc said:


> GerryD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Telbell,
> Don't be put off, go to the NEC confident in the fact that if you buy a MH based on the Fiat or Peugeot chassis you are buying the best base vehicle currently available.
> Any issues can and will be righted but it can take time. There is not a motor vehicle on the road that has not required some intervention or modification during it's life.
> 
> 
> 
> *I am sorry Gerry although I share your comments that the basic van is very good, the service from Fiat and Peugeot is beyond belief. I just cannot see how you can defend their approach to this problem. *
Click to expand...

Double ditto john, their vans may be good, that is probably without doubt, but their customer care is frankly appalling. 
Most if not all of the complainants are *still* either waiting to hear what this marvellous fix is or waiting for a fix.
Either way apart from a small number few have a permanent ''watertight'' fix for their vehicle. 
No doubt when they get their act together and sort this out once and for all they will be cracking vans, but it's a long long time coming!!


----------



## GerryD

Just out of interest I have just checked the VOSA website for recalls on the three most popular base vehicles. The results are:
Mercedes Sprinter 7 recalls in 7years
Fiat Ducato 12 recalls in 13 years
Ford Transit 19 recalls in 15 years
In all cases recalls have taken over 12 months to be put into effect.
Draw your own conclusions, but I think it is difficult to decide which is the better manufacturer.
I know I shall get shot down for this posting but it needs some balance.


----------



## Zebedee

If you do get shot Gerry, it will only be with a very small calibre rifle.   

This is not that OTHER forum after all.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## johnc

GerryD said:


> Just out of interest I have just checked the VOSA website for recalls on the three most popular base vehicles. The results are:
> Mercedes Sprinter 7 recalls in 7years
> Fiat Ducato 12 recalls in 13 years
> Ford Transit 19 recalls in 15 years
> In all cases recalls have taken over 12 months to be put into effect.
> Draw your own conclusions, but I think it is difficult to decide which is the better manufacturer.
> I know I shall get shot down for this posting but it needs some balance.


Gerry, it just the lies and half truths we get told, Peugeot said in one email from their customer service department "We don't share our information with Fia". The truth is Fiat build the Vans for Peugeot and Peugeot have to go to Fiat for help. Peugeot also said they have no field Managers but they do, I met one two weeks ago. This guy made out that this was the first he had seen leak problem but I know that he was advised of the water leak back in April by a Motorhome dealer in Scotland. Peugeot are on a damage limitation course in the hope that we will get fed up and just accept our rusting vans.


----------



## geraldandannie

johnc said:


> I am sorry Gerry although I share your comments that the basic van is very good, the service from Fiat and Peugeot is beyond belief. I just cannot see how you can defend their approach to this problem.


I really don't think Gerry was defending their approach - merely saying that these things take time to sort out. They do.

It's not good that they take time, and the attitude of Fiat to deny the problem and then to fail to communicate with their customers is appalling. The attitude of Peugeot seems even worse. The time it's taken Fiat to attend to what, after all, is quite a simple and easily-observed problem, is verging on the ridiculous. I understand it may have taken time to design plastic bits and pieces, but the application of a bit of sealant and fitting a couple of drain pipes is not exactly rocket science, and they could have done this months ago. They should have held their hands up, said "oops, we made a mistake", fixed the problem at the dealer as above, and then introduced pukka components into their production lines.

Seems simple enough to me.

Gerald


----------



## Telbell

Yes I'll still have a look round at NEC and I accept that the X/250 does have a good reputation from the "DRive/Ride" point of view. I like the idea of being present at the PDI. Anyone done this?


----------



## johnc

Telbell said:


> Yes I'll still have a look round at NEC and I accept that the X/250 does have a good reputation from the "DRive/Ride" point of view. I like the idea of being present at the PDI. Anyone done this?


Make sure you are the Motorhome PDI as well, our van came with 25 faults some of which we had alreday pointed out to the dealer.

Regards

John


----------



## christopherobin

You have the right to view a MOT test, so why not a PDI

Chris


----------



## Zebedee

christopherobin said:


> You have the right to view a MOT test, so why not a PDI
> 
> Chris


It will be a condition of purchase if I ever buy another new van Chris.

See my earlier post about the fog and indicator lights on my truck. :!: :!:

Regards

Dave


----------



## 96299

Telbell said:


> Yes I'll still have a look round at NEC and I accept that the X/250 does have a good reputation from the "DRive/Ride" point of view. I like the idea of being present at the PDI. Anyone done this?


yes partly...when my van was delivered to the dealer,I phoned them and said I wanted to come and have a look at it.No probs they said and when I arrived they were in the middle of the PDI and they just went about their jobs as if I wasn`t there,although I was allowed to go all over it.They did give me a quick rundown on how things were going and the only fault was the 12v side of things on the fridge.I stayed for an hour and left.The dealer had no problem with this whatsoever.

steve


----------



## geraldandannie

Over in :: this thread ::, EdsMH reports back from a trip to the NEC.



> _Also went to Fiat stand to ask about when the 3.0litres would be sorted for water ingress. They had about 4 staff doing nothing so I asked if they had a 3.0litre I could look under the bonnet of....and they did not have one except a display engine!! The smaller engined ones all had covers now.
> 
> Young lady knew about water problem and that they would be doing a recall to seal and then fit covers and had a form to fill in. Did that and asked if anyone else had raised the issue at the show and the answer was yes.....maybe two or three people.
> 
> Nobody of any seniority about so left it at that. _


Interesting.

Gerald


----------



## GerryD

Unfortunately it seems that outside this forum the issue is not widely known. The only other place that I have seen it mentioned is The Motorcaravanners Club and they did not discuss until 13th August. Even then they have only had 19 postings from 5 members. When they started to discuss it I was on holiday and therefore did not kknow about it until early Sept. A Google search found this group. But I have never seen it discussed in magazines or with any other club.
That is why I have alway advocated taking the discussion to a wider, more recognised body such as the major clubs.


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi All & Mod's.
HELP.
I have been to the 1st link at the top of this thread to check back a few things and the link doesn't work. 8O 
I have searched & searched but still cannot find  
Can anyone tell me what's happened to it ?
message on screens say *The topic or post you requested does not exist* 8O 
I hope its not "gone" because its valuable data in this sorry affair!
It shows in the 400 posts many of the places members have contacted and informed,Also the responses they did or didn't get! :roll: 
*Water Ingress - new Fiat / Peugeot - collate all faults here
Replies.....400
Views..19968 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-31287-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress
1happy


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi, Catherine

Sorry about that. I didn't think anyone would miss it for a half hour or so.

I moved it into the mods forum. Someone posted something which contravened the rules if the forum, and I wanted it out of the way whilst I / we looked at it. (Someone joined, and was touting for business, saying he had a fix for the problem, but it looked like he was going to charge for it. Advertising on the open forums is not allowed).

The thread should have been locked when I did the housekeeping the other day, but I must have missed it  

Have no fear - it will be reappearing, as it by magic, very soon :wink: 

Gerald


----------



## christopherobin

Also link to
Motorhome Channel Video
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-34498.html
Hard to find!!

Chris


----------



## Tucano

1happy, could you please tell me what Aututrail said about this problem or, tell me where to find the info in this forum, many thanks, I do not have easy access or much time these days to play around on the net.
Thanks, Norman


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*



GerryD said:


> Unfortunately it seems that outside this forum the issue is not widely known. The only other place that I have seen it mentioned is The Motorcaravanners Club and they did not discuss until 13th August. Even then they have only had 19 postings from 5 members. When they started to discuss it I was on holiday and therefore did not kknow about it until early Sept. A Google search found this group. But I have never seen it discussed in magazines or with any other club.
> That is why I have alway advocated taking the discussion to a wider, more recognised body such as the major clubs.


Hi GerryD.
Re your above post.
Members have been contacting everywhere they can think of & still "Unfortunately it seems that outside this forum the issue is not widely known" that it is reason enough to not put faith in just one resource.

To hope to resolve an issue like this where one party IE Fiat give inconsistent info and the other party IE Peugeot say nothing (Reasons for this remain debatable) is to leave no stone unturned!.

The petition appears to have found people unaware of the issue or who thought they were alone & every little helps!

The petition HERE> http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot

ALSO Hi geraldandannie.
Spotted the "touting" knew you would spot it, Hence I didn't report it,
Thanks for the info and glad thread hasn't "gone"

Hi christopherobin.
Will add link to 2nd "youtube video" I missed doing that one, sorry 

Hi TUCANO.
I don't have an Autotrail and therefore can't tell you what they have said.
Perhaps another member might help with that one! 

1happy


----------



## christopherobin

Hi 1Happy

you are doing a GREAT SERVICE for us all in this matter.

Thank you

from all of us in the water club.

Chris


----------



## 88735

Hi

Hi e-mail Peugeot earlier this week about the concerns I have with the problems of water ingress in the motorhome we have ordered and received a reply this morning. I know this will be of no use to people who are already suffering this problem, but at least it shows they are recognizing there is a problem and that they are addressing this at the production end on new builds.

"Production modifications have been made after the water ingress concerns were highlighted. We do not anticipate that this will be an issue affecting any future vehicles."


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi christopherobin.
Thanks the feeling is mutual  
your videos are brilliant :lol:

Back to the subject proper  
Has anyone got the Fiat letter yet :?: 
1happy

Hi bauldy.
"Production modifications have been made after the water ingress concerns were highlighted. We do not anticipate that this will be an issue affecting any future vehicles."
Is that a recognition from Peugeot of the problem :?: 8O


----------



## 88735

Hi Happy

They were the exact words used in the e-mail from Peugeot which leads me to believe they have acknowledged there is a problem.

I have sent the e-mail to you Happy1


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi bauldy.
Thanks for that & you are right it looks like they have & I know at least one person who will be thrilled. 8) 
Good work.  
1happy.


----------



## Zebedee

Well done Bauldy. Thanks from a fellow Pug owner, that's more than I've been able to get out of them.

It does look as if they are admitting there is a problem, which is really all we wanted in the first place. :roll: From here on with any luck :?: :?: it should only be a matter of time.

Maybe the Red Porkers Display Team can have a well-earned holiday now.

Cheers
Dave


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Duc*



1happy said:


> Hi bauldy.
> Thanks for that & you are right it looks like they have & I know at least one person who will be thrilled. 8)
> Good work.
> 1happy.


Me for one!!! Still waiting for letter from Peugeot after official Peugeot after sales manager visited my van! 
Date of visit was 4th Oct, this is 17th even with postal strikes should surely have heard something.
Oh well back to the drawing board!!!


----------



## geraldandannie

Sanatogen said:


> Maybe the Red Porkers Display Team can have a well-earned holiday now.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: Don't stand them down just yet, though :?

Gerald


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*



geraldandannie said:


> Sanatogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the Red Porkers Display Team can have a well-earned holiday now.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: Don't stand them down just yet, though :?
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

Seconded
It aint over till the fat lady sings!
(Whoever she may be :roll: )
1happy


----------



## Zebedee

Hi Carol

I'm going to speak to our dealer again and see if he can lend a bit of clout. He's excellent and will probably be able to encourage the local Peugeot dealer to _"tirez son doigt"_ and get things moving.

Whether he can help on the wider front I don't know, but will let you know if anything worthwhile transpires.

Regards

Dave

P.S. Get the nifty link. Neat or what! :tongue3:


----------



## geraldandannie

Sanatogen said:


> I'm going to speak to our dealer again and see if he can lend a bit of clout.


Exactly what I did with my dealer too. In fact, their after sales guy rang me an hour or so ago, to make sure that Fiat had contacted me, and that things were progressing OK.

The rippled front wing moulding will be replaced whenever I want. Their body work guy doesn't work on Saturdays, but they're going to twist an arm or two if that's the only day I can get down (it is).

Gerald


----------



## 38Rover

Leaks into the engine bay of New Style Fiat Ducato/Peugeot/Citroen

The problem is water leaking into the engine bay and soaking various components in the engine bay.The long term effects of this will cause numerous and varied problems for these vehicles in the future.It's all very well and proper to take the matter up with Fiat but in the mean time you vehicle and investment is being ruined.
There are several design faults not rectified by one fix:
1 Water runs behind the plastic scuttle below the windscreen and via the joint of the two halves.
2 The extreme ends of the plastic scuttle are lower than the drained channel with no means of connecting with the off centre drain tube so they fill and flood into the engine bayther is a small hole 2/3mm at this point which is easily blocked and when it isn't allows water over the electrics etc..(exasperated if the vehicle is parked on a camber)
3 The fresh air intake drain tube is to the rear of the intake so if the vehicle is parked nose down the water leaks via the seal between the two halves of the intake.
4.Water runs between the plastic trim plates above and down the side of the headlamp
5.The gap between windscreen and a post acts as a channel to funnel water under the bonnet.
6 The gap between bonnet and headlamp has no means of stopping water entering the engine compartment

My suggestion for a solution to the problem I have done this to my Burstner Solano and it works after testing with a hose no significant sign of water.
1.Seal the plastic scuttle to the windscreen 
2. Fit drain tubes to the two low areas of the plastic scuttle (i.e. both ends)
3.Fit a drain to the fore end of the fresh air intake
4.Seal with silicon
5.Seal with silicon
6.Stick foam to underside of the bonnet short edges to form a seal.

For the 3 drain tubes I used 18mm dia metal inserts used for plastic pipework its easy to drill the necessary holes an 18mm wood bit is ideal for plastic.I then sealed the inserts which have a small lip with silicon.
To the inserts I attached 25mm dia plastic flexible conduit its a slack fit on the 18mm insert but easily taken up with silicon.The plastic conduit is ideal for the task as it can be tied back into almost any shape I used cable ties to secure the pipes with them terminating level with the bottom of the main plastic bumper.
To seal the plastic scuttle its easier to remove the bonnet 4 bolts mark with felt tip pen the heads of the bolts this will allow exact repositioning.Remove the wipers 2 nuts.Remove the trim panels above headlights 2 machine screws each plus clips.
Then release the plastic scuttle some screws and clips no need to remove completely just pull back to make the application of the silicon to the inside face easier.Refit the scuttle it may be necessary to hold the scuttle to the windscreen with some small wedges from the wipers.Any excess silicon exuding can be trimmed with a sharp knife after setting.
When drilling the hole in the freshair intake drill it on to the drop lip so it's in the lowest possible position.
Using evostick ( if your foam is not self adhesive)stick 5/6 mm thick close cell foam strip to the underside of the short edges of the bonnet,foam about 15mm wide.
Sealing the area around the headlamps and body use black silicon since there is a groove for the most part its easy to make a neat job looking like it's meant to be
I am aware that this fix could invalidate you warantee but each time it rains more lasting problems will occur.
Since the mods are superficial I dont think a dealer would refuse help on these grounds.
the pipe inserts and flexible conduit used are obtainable from any DIY store I got mine from Leroy Merlin in Malaga.
What a task on a new vehicle that cost £45k but it will definitely be worth it.

Colin Frier [email protected] ( Malaga Spain)

Any problems e mail me.


----------



## safariboy

Fiat have started to phone people who have contacted them. There are five reference numbers for our model (but it may be different for other VIN numbers):
5221,5222,5251,5219,5223
So there is action!


----------



## GerryD

This confirms my posting of last Thursday.


----------



## Telbell

*Re: Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Duc*



> "Production modifications have been made after the water ingress concerns were highlighted. We do not anticipate that this will be an issue affecting any future vehicles."


At least some god news for potential customers-thanks for that


----------



## carolgavin

*Fiat update on motorhomes.net*



Sanatogen said:


> Maybe the Red Porkers Display Team can have a well-earned holiday now.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


Dave petal me'n 1happy are just chatting and neither of us understand this reference to red porkers, although we somehow found it highly amusing :ffxi5: Maybe it's just one of those days :gotglitter: :blowkiss: Could you possibly enlighten us girls, by PM if it's rude ainting:

Sorry just found another update on the Fiat fix on the website don madge linked to earlier with pics and another message see water ingress further statement


----------



## sallytrafic

carolgavin said:


> Sanatogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the Red Porkers Display Team can have a well-earned holiday now.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> Dave petal me'n 1happy are just chatting and neither of us understand this reference to red porkers, although we somehow found it highly amusing :ffxi5: Maybe it's just one of those days :gotglitter: :blowkiss: Could you possibly enlighten us girls, by PM if it's rude ainting:
Click to expand...

pigs might fly?


----------



## Zebedee

That's right Frank. The porcine wing of the Red Arrows. 

Sorry I hammed it up a bit too much for you girls. 8O 

Dave


----------



## carolgavin

sallytrafic said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sanatogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the Red Porkers Display Team can have a well-earned holiday now.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> Dave petal me'n 1happy are just chatting and neither of us understand this reference to red porkers, although we somehow found it highly amusing :ffxi5: Maybe it's just one of those days :gotglitter: :blowkiss: Could you possibly enlighten us girls, by PM if it's rude ainting:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> pigs might fly?
Click to expand...

Thats really quite funny never thought of that, water on the brain, :rofl: :smilecolros: Normally quicker on the uptake than that :rainbow1:

Hammed it up, :indian: [-X stop it now i really will be :rofl: 
Further fiat statement Here

Dave got letter from Peugeot today will PM you asap


----------



## HarleyDave

*Water on the brain?*

Water on the brain? - You need a tap on the head!

Flying Pigs Rule - OK?

Cheers

Dave


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi all.
Has anyone else had problem with the link to the petition in the newsletter
It doesn't work & takes you here >> http://www.icontact.com/

This one works HERE>> http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot
Signatures now 141.

Cheers now to catch up on the thread.
Apart from the airbourne pigs :lol: :lol: :lol: 
have I missed anything :idea: 
1happy


----------



## 107708

I have a lot of contacts by next week you will have 200.



But what happens then does Gordon Brown pay them a visit?








At the NEC!


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi barrucda.
Just noticed you're a Newbie.
Welcome to the forum.
Just about to post and spotted your question! :lol: :lol: :lol: 
I hope that if people contact the PM (& their MP's) we might hear about it in PM's Questions 8O in the house.
It is after all a shocking way to treat your customer's in the 21st century.
I don't expect he will pay them a visit :roll: 
*But you never know....one question from the right person in the right ear * :wink: 
could pay dividends in both clarity & bringing this "issue" to a satisfactory conclusion :idea: 
1happy

Hi Carol.
Thanks for updated link HERE>> http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/fiat-water-ingress.shtml
Copied and pasted the text below for those who don't like using links.
Sadly photo's still have to be viewed on the link.  
:glasses5: :glasses4: :glasses6: 
[align=left:d1a04837dc]I am unimpressed by the "Sealing of centre join" photo (sealants have failed for so many members!) & part of the accompanying statement (segment highlighted with bold print)

[/align:d1a04837dc]..........................................................................................................
The fix, as implemented by Fiat

Fiat have the new Ducato on show at the International Motorhome and Caravan show at the NEC this week (16-21 Oct). The vehicles on show have the modifications fitted as can be seen in the photos:

Engine cover 
Sealing of centre join 
Sealing of windscreen join

A Fiat representative confirmed that retrofitting of the engine cover and *applying sealant as appropriate will be carried out at the same time *as the recall referred to in their press release quoted above. The spokesman said that owners who have registered for the Fiat warranty will be contacted about the rectification work. They will be happy for owners to visit the stand (3100) at the show with their vehicle details and they will be able to register for the work to be carried out. Anyone who is unsure whether their vehicle is registered with Fiat can approach their local Fiat Connercial dealer, or the motorhome dealer from whom they purchased their motorhome, to get the work booked.

The spokesman went on to say " We are aiming for a 100% fix, we want all our owners to be 100% satisfied" 
........................................................................................................


----------



## Grizzly

Yesterday we had a phone call from Fiat advising us to go to a named dealer to have the various issues dealt with.

This dealer called us back. It is his opinion that the faults which are scheduled to be rectified at the same time as the water ingress problems should be rectified as soon as possible. 

He gave us details of each and we agree with his assessment so the van will go in early next week. He has not yet got instructions and parts for the water ingress problem but he will do that separately when he has.

G


----------



## Zebedee

Grizzly said:


> Yesterday we had a phone call from Fiat advising us to go to a named dealer to have the various issues dealt with.
> 
> This dealer called us back. It is his opinion that the faults which are scheduled to be rectified at the same time as the water ingress problems should be rectified as soon as possible.
> 
> He gave us details of each and we agree with his assessment so the van will go in early next week. He has not yet got instructions and parts for the water ingress problem but he will do that separately when he has.
> 
> G


Hi Grizzly

This is rather worrying for a Peugeot owner (especially the "various issues"), since you and quite a few other Fiat owners say you have been phoned and asked to take your vans in for various fixes.

I have heard NOTHING from Peugeot, and the answers to my several questions were mostly met with (genuine or simulated) bewilderment. :?

Have any other Peugeot owners received a pro-active letter or phone call, other than as an obligatory response to your enthusiastic cage rattling?

Regards

Dave

P.S. Sorry if I have missed any. Have been a bit busy this week.


----------



## zulurita

I emailed the Caravan Clun as addvised by Gerry D and have had two replies from George Hinton. the second one highlights ANOTHER issue with the clutch when reversing up steep inclines.

These were sent to me:


Dear Rita
Thanks for your letter. We have tested several X/250s and Peugeot equivalent
now and had no problems other than a flat battery on a Swift, caused by a
device they had fitted to bypass the radio cutout timer. I agree we have
seen external corrosion on the injectors, but this does not affect their
internal workings. 
However, I acknowledge your concern over this and the fusebox's regular
dousings, and have forwarded your letter to Fiat UK for their response. I
will be in touch when we hear back from them.

Should you be visiting this week's NEC show, Fiat has a stand and should
have its technical people there on Friday. Don't expect a recall - that is
reserved for safety-related items, and this one has not even caused a
breakdown as far as I know. Only if new buyers pressure dealers by promising
firm orders on condition that Fiat first fixes what they perceive to be a
problem, can I imagine any rapid action being taken.
Presumably if rust doesn't harm the injectors, neither would a lick of
paint?

Yours sincerely

George Hinton
Deputy Editor
Club Magazine

and

Dear Rita
I picked up the same news. I'm afraid that's the way it is with large
corporations, but be reassured Fiat has taken everyone's concerns on board,
has sorted the problem and WILL retrofit the update kit to all previous
motorhome production.
It is quite a complex operation, because the modifications to be made to
production vehicles are different to the alteration work to update existing
vehicles. The very first batch of kits were rushed out from Italy and fitted
at the NEC to the show chassis - that's how tight we are time-wise to the
kits being manufactured.I suppose you could refuse to accept delivery until
the kit is fitted - that MIGHT speed things up by a week or two, but you
would be without your vehicle, which would probably still be standing out in
the weather.

However I learned at the show from another owner that there is a far more
serious potential problem which Fiat is also aware of and seeking a cure
for: Apparently reversing up a steep incline induces severe clutch judder.
It sounds like an engine mounting issue, but we will have to await Fiat's
investigation on this one.

Regards
George Hinton


----------



## johnc

*Peugeot Clutch judder*

Our van has covered 3800 miles since March 2007 and I have noticed judder when reversing when I first got the van. To be honest I did think it was just me not used to the van but it still happens and I was going to have it looked at when it is in for the next round of botch ups.

Look as if it is going to be long long long winter of discontent!!!!!!

John C


----------



## 96299

*Re: Peugeot Clutch judder*



johnc said:


> Our van has covered 3800 miles since March 2007 and I have noticed judder when reversing when I first got the van. To be honest I did think it was just me not used to the van but it still happens and I was going to have it looked at when it is in for the next round of botch ups.
> 
> Look as if it is going to be long long long winter of discontent!!!!!!
> 
> John C


I know how you feel mate.On the FiART side of my motorhome it seems to be one thing after another at the moment.I`ve got water ingress (had new scuttle fitted and it still pours in),I`ve had a bearing change in the gearbox,management system light on,air-con not working,ripple effect on front bumper and now the engine wont start because of a dead battery which looks like something FiART have done when sorting out a speaker problem.The battery held it`s charge perfectly before.

What a bunch of no-hopers they are turning out to be.I`m really p155ed off with them to be honest.

sorry about rant but had to get it off me chest.

steve


----------



## carolgavin

I feel your pain :buzzsaw: However no need to apologise for the rant you are amongst fellow sufferers, and if it isn't you then surely it will be one of us :tshirt:


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi Water Babies  
When Carolgavin suggested merging the threads I immediately agreed/seconded the idea as we were obviously upsetting some members  and some people were positively attacking us for our incessant complaining. :roll:

However We are now in danger of certain issues getting lost within a thread.  
The recent (ish) postings for juddering in reverse are now in danger of getting missed by scuttlegate members & newbies. 

Like johnc..we too thought it was just us and t'other half has resorted to lots of rev's to minimise the "judder"

Don't know if anyone else feels that one thread could be restricting discussion on the *ever increasing number of FAULTS !!!* :evil: :roll: 8O

Hi Chigman.
That makes two of us who are p155ed off & its not off my chest :!: 
Not until someone from Fiat and Peugeot stand up and tell us mushrooms what they are doing about our vans in an official announcement :idea:
1unhappy


----------



## carolgavin

Could we perhaps use the members bar for discussion amongst ourselves re scuttlegate, juddergate, steeringgate, and any other gate I may have missed. We could restrict this thread as far as is possible to fault reporting and any news or grumblings we could put in the members bar. It does have the advantage of being away from everyone who is not involved and so will not irritate if we bang on about it???? Disadvantage is our musings will not be accesible to non-subscribers.
Only a thought, others may have a better suggestion


----------



## johnc

*re scuttlegate, juddergate, steeringgate*

brakegate!


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: re scuttlegate, juddergate, steeringgate*



johnc said:


> brakegate!


Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat when did I miss brakegate and whats it all about???????


----------



## christopherobin

Hi All

Had a nice day at NEC today met up with LadyJ and her other half.
We had coffee on the swift stand with Kath but Peter was on another
stand, so missed him.

I called at Fiat stand and got a well rehearsed speal, no news there!!!

Had meeting with Caravan Channel, explained all about our problems
with Fiat/Peugeot etc and will do a bit in the next show.
Looks like I will have to subscribe to Sky :roll: 

Chris


----------



## carolgavin

christopherobin said:


> Hi All
> 
> Had a nice day at NEC today met up with LadyJ and her other half.
> We had coffee on the swift stand with Kath but Peter was on another
> stand, so missed him.
> 
> I called at Fiat stand and got a well rehearsed speal, no news there!!!
> 
> Had meeting with Caravan Channel, explained all about our problems
> with Fiat/Peugeot etc and will do a bit in the next show.
> Looks like I will have to subscribe to Sky :roll:
> 
> Chris


Hi Chris remember me :angel13: I am your number one fan :notworthy: :notworthy: Can I be the first to get your autograph???


----------



## johnc

*Re: re scuttlegate, juddergate, steeringgate*



carolgavin said:


> johnc said:
> 
> 
> 
> brakegate!
> 
> 
> 
> Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat when did I miss brakegate and whats it all about???????
Click to expand...

It's to do with water getting into the brake vacuum hose (I think) and forming ice causing a brake problem (I think this is on an actual recall)


----------



## christopherobin

Who

only joking Carol

Keep a look out for motorhome reports etc on the caravan channel.

Chris :lol:


----------



## 105062

Yes, There is a recall on the servo pipes icing up on these vans, Fiat told me about it when I rang them about the water problem, it sounds like this recall may have taken their eye of the ball with the scuttle prob as it is potentially dangerous...brake failure 8O 8O 8O

Apparently MH Dealers at the NEC are telling people to register with their local Fiat dealer *and then they will *get their scuttles changed!

Totally lost with the threads now, understand why they have been consolidated, could they not be archived somewhere and a new thread set up to take us forward?


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi Tribute_650.


> Yes, There is a recall on the servo pipes icing up on these vans, Fiat told me about it when I rang them about the water problem, it sounds like this recall may have taken their eye of the ball with the scuttle prob as it is potentially dangerous...brake failure 8O 8O 8O


 8O 8O 8O Do you know if this affects the 130* &* 160 multijets :?:
I am only a woman but I agree brake failure sounds dangerous  
Did the person you spoke to say how they would notify this recall :?: :?:



> Apparently MH Dealers at the NEC are telling people to register with their local Fiat dealer and then they will get their scuttles changed!


So Changed or Sealant :?: :roll: :roll: :roll:



> Totally lost with the threads now, understand why they have been consolidated, could they not be archived somewhere and a new thread set up to take us forward?


I'm confused too & I had hoped this one would help clarify the issues & keep things focused so as not to intrude on other members enjoyment of the forum 8) 
1happy


----------



## christopherobin

Can we not have a sticky that lists all the relevant threads, that no one
can post on. !!!!

For us simple one's who can't find the threads now.

Chris


----------



## DABurleigh

Every cloud; at least it is an incentive for members to learn how to search MHF ....

But a lesson for us all not to create in the first place a wealth of parallel threads covering broadly the same ground.

Dave


----------



## zulurita

I thought the brake recall was on the older Fiat motorhomes ie. pre 2007 but after 2002.

My current Fiat motorhome was bought Jan 2004 and have had a letter from Fiat regarding this recall.

PS: I have done over 29,000 miles and now get a recall on Brakes! Been up and down many mountain passes!


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*



christopherobin said:


> Can we not have a sticky that lists all the relevant threads, that no one
> can post on. !!!!
> For us simple one's who can't find the threads now.
> 
> Chris


Hi Chris,
Most of the relevant threads are listed with links and title on the first page of this thread.  
When Carolgavin suggested bringing the threads together this seemed one of the best ways of 
A/ keeping the searching to a minimum for the newbies and less experienced.  
B/ Minimising new threads so as not to annoy other forum users.  
C/Concerned members can ask me for any other threads relating to this matter to be added to 1st post and locked if they wish,again to minimise our invasion of the forum 

*Maybe the mods would like to "sticky" this thread* (but not "lock" it! or valuable info will slip into oblivion!) in the place of the "Fiat Water Ingress - Fiat Solution" (so called solution!) which is now locked & linked on the afore mentioned first post on this thread.

The problem remains with so much "breaking news" & still no "official" response from Fiat or Peugeot how do we make sure important stuff like brake recalls :evil: get proper exposure :roll: 
1happy


----------



## quartet

*Fiat recall*

Just had a call from Phil Service Manager at Gainmanor Fiat Newcastle.
He wanted to fix my my leak! He'd had the go ahead from the Fiat rep and wanted to order the parts!.
I told him I had no confidence in the Workshop manager as he sent my vehicle out last time without even testing it! "cos he didn't have time"
See photograph of his "fix" This was the 3rd visit! (and last!)
In the meantime it was done brilliantly by Brownhills!
Barry


----------



## christopherobin

Hi Dave

I agree with you about:-

Every cloud; at least it is an incentive for members to learn how to search MHF .... 

But I feel sure it would help new members if (Sticky on Home Page "Fiat Water Ingress - Fiat Solution" ) was moved onto thread below.

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-34317.html
And a new Sticky on Home Page ( Fiat/Peugeot Water Ingress Etc)
sent people to 1happy's Thread, where people could then click on the sub threads. Life needs to be simple.

Chris


----------



## geraldandannie

christopherobin said:


> But I feel sure it would help new members if (Sticky on Home Page "Fiat Water Ingress - Fiat Solution" ) was moved onto thread below.


Dave (Nukeadmin) will need to do that - I can't edit an administrator's post to change its status :wink:

Gerald


----------



## christopherobin

Gerald

Do you get what I mean.

Regards

Chris


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi, Chris

Yes, I do. It's just that sticky status is set in the first post of a thread, which was made by Nuke, so I can't do anything with it. Dave will have to do it himself.

I understand the requirement to have the information easily found, but it's difficult when you have so many posters creating posts and threads. I think what we have is probably OK for now. 

Gerald


----------



## christopherobin

Gerald

I see your point, but a friend who has just picked up a new Fiat, was trying
to read threads, about water ingress etc.
And said it's not very clear. He just happens to be a web designer!

Chris.


----------



## GerryD

This discussion seems boring now that Fiat owners seem to have a solution.
How about putting the pressure on Peugeot who have really been the villain of the piece.


----------



## christopherobin

GerryD said:


> This discussion seems boring now that Fiat owners seem to have a solution.
> How about putting the pressure on Peugeot who have really been the villain of the piece.


SEEM

Is the word !!!!

Chris


----------



## 105062

"_* Do you know if this affects the 130 & 160 multijets 
I am only a woman but I agree brake failure sounds dangerous 
Did the person you spoke to say how they would notify this recall "*_

Hi 1happy, I called the Fiat dealer, Jordans of Hull, to ask about the water recall and she rummaged through some papers then said "ah here it is, we have just got the bulletin " and read " Fiat Ducato recall bulletin xxxx, icing up of brake servo pipe " so without thinking I said no thats not it bla bla bla then tried to back track and get more detail, she then said oh sorry if yours is a motorhome we can not fit it on the lift so sorry we can not help you and would not give me any further info but told me to go to another dealer who serviced commercials. I went to North east Truck and Van centre but they have not had any info through. I rang the Fiat MH helpline and was told that they would be sending me a recall letter, does all this sound familiar? yes its he same runaround as for the water problem but this seems loads more serious!

Will let you know if I do get the letter


----------



## carolgavin

GerryD said:


> This discussion seems boring now that Fiat owners seem to have a solution.
> How about putting the pressure on Peugeot who have really been the villain of the piece.


Gerry, gerry surely you should know us by now we are never boring :signsigh: annoyed yes, disgruntled mmmm yes, fed up yes, still waiting for our fix :signduh: yes 
Talk is cheap, proof of pudding is in the 'fix' and as yet no one not even your lovely self has had it petal. Sooooooooooooooooo maybe we is waiting oh so patiently for something other than wordsies to be said actions is what we need :sonarsmile: 
As for Peugeot poor wee souls were just waiting for some direction from Fiat which hasn't been so forthcoming :signarg: till their lovely statement earlier. :blueflowerface: been trying to exert pressure rotest: but tis hard to find someone I haven't yet written too or talked to at Peugeot including their non existant man :toothy2: 
We shall see, we shall see :magnifyglass: :magnifyglass:


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*



GerryD said:


> This discussion seems boring now that Fiat owners seem to have a solution.
> How about putting the pressure on Peugeot who have really been the villain of the piece.


Hi GerryD.
Are you deliberately trying to be provocative ?
Is so my children would say "its not big and its not clever" !
If not then perhaps you would like to rephrase your posts ?
I only say this because deliberate baiting would not be nice!

This subject is of great concern to many members & if you dont share that concern please dont trouble your self with the thread anymore.
Regards Catherine

*EDIT ADDED:- Forgot to say,
Before I get reported for personally attacking you...again.
Many people come on this and the other related threads and have subtle or even not so subtle digs and we try to take it in good humour,
But you are doing it almost daily!*


----------



## 96299

This thread needs to be seen through to the end, absolutely.

steve


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*



Tribute_650 said:


> Hi 1happy, I called the Fiat dealer, Jordans of Hull, to ask about the water recall and she rummaged through some papers then said "ah here it is, we have just got the bulletin " and read " Fiat Ducato recall bulletin xxxx, icing up of brake servo pipe " so without thinking I said no thats not it bla bla bla then tried to back track and get more detail, she then said oh sorry if yours is a motorhome we can not fit it on the lift so sorry we can not help you and would not give me any further info but told me to go to another dealer who serviced commercials. I went to North east Truck and Van centre but they have not had any info through. I rang the Fiat MH helpline and was told that they would be sending me a recall letter, does all this sound familiar? yes its he same runaround as for the water problem but this seems loads more serious!
> 
> Will let you know if I do get the letter


It all sounds too familiar, 8O 
The Letter :roll: 
Phoned my garage today & there are no new recalls in the last wek re my 130 multijet....not even the steering :roll: 
When will they learn :roll: 

Hi Chigman.
Thanks  
Regards Catherine


----------



## 105062

One recall has happened, I have asked Nickynoo to find out which recall it is.
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-318366.html#318366
Cheers
Paul


----------



## Grizzly

Ring a Fiat commercial vehicle dealer. If you can't find one on the internet or via Yellow pPages then ring Fiat. They do have a list and, in our experience, were very helpful.

Give him your VIN number. He has, on his intranet computer, the list of items that must be checked on your vehicle . He is able to give you the number of each item and details of what it entails. He should also be able to make an appointment to have your vehicle in to do this. 

Our dealer, having checked the list, recommended we bring it in as soon as possible. The fix for the water ingress is not the one that concerns him most but it will be done when all the parts are available. We're taking the van in next week and hope that by then the water ingress "kit" is available as well.

G


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi Grizzly.
My garage new nothing new on Friday. :roll: 
Ours is the 2.3ltr 130 multijet and still dont know what & if there are recalls on ours!
But this is on another thread for the 3ltr.
Copy & paste used.....may help someone :?: .

"Hi
I have finally received clarification of the recalls on my mighty MultiJet 3.0.
Fiat references as follows

5219 - steering rack
5221 - injector corrosion
5222 - something to do with the ABS
5223 - front wiper

I have phoned a couple of dealers but the van is too big for their premises.

The search goes on, otherwise it is a 50 mile trip to Brighouse and the ever
helpful Northern Commercials."


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Duc*



1happy said:


> Hi Grizzly.
> My garage new nothing new on Friday. :roll:
> Ours is the 2.3ltr 130 multijet and still dont know what & if there are recalls on ours!
> But this is on another thread for the 3ltr.
> Copy & paste used.....may help someone :?: .
> "Hi
> I have finally received clarification of the recalls on my mighty MultiJet 3.0.
> Fiat references as follows
> 5219 - steering rack
> 5221 - injector corrosion
> 5222 - something to do with the ABS
> 5223 - front wiper
> I have phoned a couple of dealers but the van is too big for their premises.
> The search goes on, otherwise it is a 50 mile trip to Brighouse and the ever
> helpful Northern Commercials."


Hi iHappy. I answered Russell's post ( the one you quoted above) on that thread. Is the garage you are calling a Fiat *commercial* vehicle one ? If not then they are quite likely not to be on top of this one. Tell the person who answers the phone to look on the Fiat information for commercial dealers intra/internet site. It's all there.

G


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi Grizzly.
I knew someone would ask!
Sadly they are a Fiat commercial & straight out of the service book! :roll: 
Which makes it all the more infuriating. 8O 
I have now started making alternative arrangements. 
But I do think it demonstrates that there is still some of the "mushroom" mentality out there & its not just us who aren't always up to speed.  
Regards Catherine


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato*

Hi All.
Just to remind all scuttlegate members *Re:- Fiat & Peugeot Reported Faults & Recalls NEW Ducato & Boxer!*
If you wish me to create a link to your thread & the title of your thread at the the 1st post of this thread I will be happy to do so.
That way we can all *see and check the "reported faults" *in an effort to collate & keep informed even when they drop into oblivion.

NB:- It doesn't mean your thread will get "locked" the ones that are locked are because carol & I asked for them locking.
Sad to hear members are still taking delivery of "scuttlegate" vans.
Regards 1happy


----------



## carolgavin

catherine slightly off topic but I found you this


----------



## DC4JC

Hi everyone.

Just a quick update following some action! from Fiat last Friday.

Van went in for recall to gearbox, which was fixed, also did recall for ECU, which was replaced and another for check to differental.

They finally excepted and understood the water ingress problem ( after printing out extract from this site) and getting them to phone a contact at Fiat plus their technical department.
As a result they ordered the parts and asked to keep the van for an extra day to fix the water ingress!

Surprise surprise, not all the parts arrived the following day and as a result they had to abandon it. Apparently the missing parts for my model ( 3ltr) will not be available until December!
They also said that they would not be fitting an engine cover as there was not one available for it!

I'm now totally confused. Can anyone confirm if they have seen a cover for the 3 ltr version, either at the NEC or via Swift etc?

Thanks

Dave


----------



## zulurita

Dave,

The chassis cabs on display at the Fiat stand BOTH 2.3 & 3.0 litre (130 & 160 Multijet) had covers over their injectors.

I expect these chassis cabs were hot from Italy and were done at time of manufacture. I believe all those built beforehand will need to have an after build modification and it is those parts that dealers are waiting for, guess they may well be slightly different from those being built now??


----------



## DC4JC

Rita,

thanks for the feedback.

I think you're right as they need to by pass the air pipes across the top of the engine. But having looked at it cant see that this would be a major issue?

Dave


----------



## 1happy

Hi DC4JC.
Confusion abounds. :roll: 
Probably explains why Fiat cant make an official statement or send letter as promised over three weeks ago :!: (as per the solution announcement!) :evil: 
Thanks for the update though.  
Regards Catherine


----------



## statenisland

*x250 water ingress*

Just had a phone call from Fiat Slough telling me to take my MH to the local dealer to have 'a trim' fitted to divert the water away from the engine and 4 campaign items attended to.
1)5219 Steering rack
2)5221 Clean corroding injectors
3)5247 Fuel injector flash 
4)5251 Power steering
The lady who called had no details but assured me the items were not safety related. She could not confirm that a cover would be fitted over the engine as per pictures posted on this site and reportedly on models at NEC Show.
I will ring the dealer tomorrow to find out more.
Has anybody else had the call?


----------



## christopherobin

Hi Statenisland

What size engine ?


Chris


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: x250 water ingress*



statenisland said:


> The lady who called had no details but assured me the items were not safety related.
> 
> Has anybody else had the call?


Yes, ours goes in tomorrow. I'd take your dealer's advice on whether the items are safety related or not. That is what we did. We are still waiting for the water ingress parts to come but the other items come first.

Need I say more ?

G


----------



## statenisland

*x250 water ingress*

Hi Chris,
2.3 litre


----------



## SwiftGroup

*covers*



DC4JC said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Just a quick update following some action! from Fiat last Friday.
> 
> Van went in for recall to gearbox, which was fixed, also did recall for ECU, which was replaced and another for check to differental.
> 
> They finally excepted and understood the water ingress problem ( after printing out extract from this site) and getting them to phone a contact at Fiat plus their technical department.
> As a result they ordered the parts and asked to keep the van for an extra day to fix the water ingress!
> 
> Surprise surprise, not all the parts arrived the following day and as a result they had to abandon it. Apparently the missing parts for my model ( 3ltr) will not be available until December!
> They also said that they would not be fitting an engine cover as there was not one available for it!
> 
> I'm now totally confused. Can anyone confirm if they have seen a cover for the 3 ltr version, either at the NEC or via Swift etc?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dave


The 3litre engines had covers but they were the prototypes!Fiat are fitting engine covers now at our factory but the 3litre ones will not be ready until November.I had a meeting at the NEC with no less than six Fiat personnell at a very senior level.I put forward the concerns of the members on the forum and they do understand now the difference between a motorhome user and a 'white van man'.I have a further meeting at the factory next week to discuus the way forward reference the issue of shedding water from the screen. Peter.


----------



## 1happy

*Re: x250 water ingress*



statenisland said:


> Just had a phone call from Fiat Slough telling me to take my MH to the local dealer to have 'a trim' fitted to divert the water away from the engine and 4 campaign items attended to.
> 1)5219 Steering rack
> 2)5221 Clean corroding injectors
> 3)5247 Fuel injector flash
> 4)5251 Power steering
> The lady who called had no details but assured me the items were not safety related. She could not confirm that a cover would be fitted over the engine as per pictures posted on this site and reportedly on models at NEC Show.
> I will ring the dealer tomorrow to find out more.
> Has anybody else had the call?


Hi statenisland.
Can I ask was this phonecall from Fiat out of the blue (so to speak) or had you asked them to ring you re the recalls :?: 
Regards Catherine


----------



## statenisland

*X250 water ingress*

Good evening Catherine,
I made my complaint to Fiat and got my case number in September shortly after I bought the vehicle (first registered April 2007) secondhand (being aware of the problem,but this one does not seem badly affected).
As suggested on this site I rang Fiat on 1st October and received a call back within 48 hours telling me to take the MH to the local dealer. When I rang to make the appointment I was told it would only be a temporary fix, so I didn't bother making an appointment.
Tonight's call was the first I have heard from Fiat since.
Regards
Brian


----------



## 1happy

Hi Brian.Thanks for your reply  
Where steering is involved you would think Fiat,dealers etc would be trying to contact people :roll: 
But you are the 1st I have heard of who has been "spontaneously" contacted. :roll: 
I am like you & do not see the point in temp fixes and am awaiting a more permanent fix.  
Thanks again Catherine


----------



## Grizzly

1happy said:


> Where steering is involved you would think Fiat,dealers etc would be trying to contact people :roll:
> I am like you & do not see the point in temp fixes and am awaiting a more permanent fix.
> Catherine


Catherine...the steering and brake issues will be sorted properly when you take the van in . Don't wait to get them done until your water ingress parts are ready. Contact a Fiat commercial dealer now, give him your VIN number and he will get it done for you. I strongly advise you not to wait for this.

G


----------



## 1happy

*Recalls.*

Hi Grizzly.
Thanks for the advice.
I am trying to arrange for the work to be done. :roll: 
Thing is spoke to my authorised garage after these numbers/recalls came out & the said they didn't know about them. :roll:

Am now trying to arrange with another garage...waiting on a phone call....Maybe they heard about my petition and wont fix mine  
Luckily we are not driving it & will only do so to go for the fix!
Thanks again  
Catherine


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Recalls.*



1happy said:


> Hi Grizzly.
> Thanks for the advice.
> I am trying to arrange for the work to be done. :roll:
> Thing is spoke to my authorised garage after these numbers/recalls came out & the said they didn't know about them. :roll:
> 
> Am now trying to arrange with another garage...waiting on a phone call....Maybe they heard about my petition and wont fix mine
> Luckily we are not driving it & will only do so to go for the fix!
> Thanks again
> Catherine


Catherine...the information is available to all Fiat dealers on the Fiat dealer website. It might be that this is only available to Fiat commercial vehicel dealers but, if your dealer is one of those, then he has only to look at his computer and it is there. He will need your VIN number and he will then be able to tell you what recalls etc apply to your vehicle.

WE found Fiat were very helpful in giving us a commercial dealer nearby who deals in motorhomes and has been an agent since 1968. The dealer needs to have a ramp and building of the right size for a motorhome.

G


----------



## 1happy

*Re: Recalls.*



Grizzly said:


> Catherine...the information is available to all Fiat dealers on the Fiat dealer website. It might be that this is only available to Fiat commercial vehicel dealers but, if your dealer is one of those, then he has only to look at his computer and it is there. He will need your VIN number and he will then be able to tell you what recalls etc apply to your vehicle.
> 
> WE found Fiat were very helpful in giving us a commercial dealer nearby who deals in motorhomes and has been an agent since 1968. The dealer needs to have a ramp and building of the right size for a motorhome.
> 
> G


Hi Grizzly.
The first garage I referred to is a "commercial" one, which makes it all the more ludicrous that on the day I phoned them they only knew about the "ingress fix" & nothing about the "recalls/campains" hence the reason I am trying to get another garage to do the required work.
I currently have five full A4 pages of typed notes for every phone call & every letter I have written in relation to these faults over an 10 week period.
Bearing in mind how long it has taken Fiat & Peugeot to react, let alone admit the problems, It then comes as no surprise to me that many sufferers are told many different things.
Like I intimated before maybe I have been "red flagged" for special treatment :roll: however I know I am not the only one getting no where fast & from that I take some comfort that it can't be personal 

I also take comfort in the fact that if this fiasco of inconsistencies  continues I will have the last laugh.
A quick check of recalls on the VOSA website shows that in over 100 years of vehicle production these companies still get things badly wrong & we the consumers meekly put up with it 8O 
In America they have (I believe!) "lemon laws" & sooner or later we could have the same!

*I am sorry if I am ranting but this has gone on too long & they are still selling these vans to unsuspecting buyers it makes my blood boil.* :evil: :evil: :evil:

Please don't think I haven't tried to resolve the faults.
One day I may post my 5 page "journal" (to date!) on MHF but for now it is ready for my lawyer if nessacery!!!!!
I do thank you wholeheartedly & hope we all get proper info & fixes.
Regards Catherine


----------



## statenisland

*x250 water ingress*

Dealing with Fiat is an emotional rollercoaster. One minute everything looks like it is sorted and next you are back to square one.
Further to my previous post last evening,I rang the Service Manager at the nearest Fiat dealer to book an appointment. On checking he found he had the information regarding the campaign items but nothing concerning water ingress.
He recommended having the campaign items done regardless of the water ingress matter as the worst case scenario was a new steering rack.
Now I will have to wait until 30th - appointment day- to see what happens next.
Brian


----------



## Tucano

Have you seen page 218 of Novembers MMM magazine where a guy has written in about his Fiat water problem, the answer doesn't inspire me with confidence.
I also wrote to the magazine but todate I have had no reply, maybe we should have stuck with a tent I think :roll: :roll:
Ah well onwards and upwards,
Norman


----------



## 1happy

*MMM November!*



TUCANO said:


> Have you seen page 218 of Novembers MMM magazine where a guy has written in about his Fiat water problem, the answer doesn't inspire me with confidence.
> I also wrote to the magazine but todate I have had no reply, maybe we should have stuck with a tent I think :roll: :roll:
> Ah well onwards and upwards,
> Norman


Hi TUCANO.
Any chance of telling us what the article says :?: 
Would love to know  
Regards Catherine


----------



## Zebedee

I bet a certain couple of lovely ladies will make me suffer for this. :roll:

Careful though girls, that looks like me on the tractor.


----------



## ICDSUN

*Re: Recalls.*

Hi

I have now spoken with my local Fiat dealer, who initially knew nothing of these problems but I guided him to the video and posts on here so is now fully aware of the issues. The following may shed some light as to why several people are getting a totally different response to their problems with the recalls etc.

Chassis are made at different times and shipped at different times some have had some of the recalls done others have not, it is all relevant to your chassis number, in my individual case there are 3 recalls that are relevant to my Burstner 2.3 namely Injectors+ covers etc, flash upgrade for Injector warning lights and finally a check on the clips that locate the power steering hose which if not fitted correctly can cause a vibration.
The parts are to be ordered for the fix on the scuttle etc, flash upgrade can be done when passing, a check on the clips for correct fitting or replacement, so the only one on mine that can impact on us using the van is the Flash Upgrade, I believe that Steve (Chigman) had this problem on his 3.0 after the warning lights came on, I think he has had this recall for that done.

The only way to get the true state of recalls on your vehicle is to call your Fiat dealer with your chassis number and you should get some factual information that is relevant to your vehicle only.

The engine covers that we seen at the NEC were not the final article I was told, looking at them they were possible modified units from another vehicle, I was told that the new covers would be available Nov/Dec dependent on which engine is fitted.

Chris


----------



## Zebedee

Hi Chris


> The engine covers that we seen at the NEC were not the final article I was told, looking at them they were possible modified units from another vehicle, I was told that the new covers would be available Nov/Dec dependent on which engine is fitted.


It gets no nearer does it, in fact every time a definite statement is issued (and there haven't been many of them) the deadlines and delivery dates have slipped back a month. :evil:

At least it's clear that digits were removed with alacrity to get covers fitted in time for the show, so this at least clobbers any further argument Fiat might try on about the effects of a waterfall being only cosmetic.

Look back to me previous post. It might make you smile . . . briefly.  Lord knows we need something to smile about. :!:

Regards

Zebedee


----------



## zulurita

Thanks Chris for that info, makes things clearer.

I will double check what has been done to my new MH before I collect it Nov 2nd. I didn't know about the Flash recall and make sure they have done a recent check on their system re my VIN number.


----------



## ICDSUN

Look back to me previous post. It might make you smile . . . briefly.  Lord knows we need something to smile about. :!: 

Regards

Zebedee

Dave

I think you have hit on a top secret pic there, I wouldn't give anymore personal details out in case they send someone round, they are watching 8O 

So thats the new model we were told about, looks an airy layout :lol: 
Obviously being rigorously tested in the European backwaters, note the multi vented super efficient drainage all around this vehicle, maybe that will be another recall, Can't wait :wink: 

Chris

Chris


----------



## 1happy

*Boing!!!!!!!!!!!!!! said Zebedee!!*



Zebedee said:


> I bet a certain couple of lovely ladies will make me suffer for this. :roll:
> 
> Careful though girls, that looks like me on the tractor.


Hi Zebedee.
Don't tell me Sanatogen has worked its magic (roundabout..get it?) and you now have a spring in your step :lol: :lol: 

Personally I prefer a little more space but Carol & I have become such good pals I dont think it will be a problem.
Will we get a letter notifying us of collection or it will just come for us weather permitting :?: :roll:

Regards Catherine.
PS Keep the hilarity coming you will have a job soon as official MHF jester,
The pay may not be good but the applause will be worth it. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## ICDSUN

zulurita said:


> Thanks Chris for that info, makes things clearer.
> 
> Rita
> 
> Hope it will lay some fears away for others also
> 
> It appears from the multitude of posts regarding various recalls etc that people are getting concerned about stuff that may not even apply to their MH
> 
> Fiat have handled the whole thing badly, when that happens people pick up on little snippets and assumptions, before long it becomes a major issue when the reality is somewhat different, it doesn't lessen the issue but hopefully will clarify it so people can be aware of the facts if they do as I suggested in my earlier post
> 
> I am one of the effected so I am not defending Fiat in any way, the least your dealer can do is the cleanup of the injectors and application of the chemicals to repel water before you take delivery, the other items I mentioned may already have been done on yours hopefully if your dealer is diligent.
> 
> Chris


----------



## carolgavin

Zebedee said:


> I bet a certain couple of lovely ladies will make me suffer for this. :roll:
> 
> Careful though girls, that looks like me on the tractor.


Hi Zebedee and welcome to motorhomefacts, strangely you do look a little familiar 

I like your picture but that is certainly not catherine and I being carted away as we would surely not wear such unfashionable scarves!!

If it is in fact us we have obviously been caught on a spying mission to Fiat/Peugeot and are in hot pursuit of techy bloke in front! He looks like he is carrying one of the new but  sadly unobtainable engine covers.
So whats new on the old scuttlegate front today then?? 
Same as yesterday diddly squat. Gonna go and have a wee  and chill before watching rangers v barcelona-----who???

Dave bet you are regretting giving me all those wee emoticons


----------



## 1happy

*Now everythings all sorted can we play out pleeeeeeease?*



Zebedee said:


> I bet a certain couple of lovely ladies will make me suffer for this. :roll:
> 
> Careful though girls, that looks like me on the tractor.





carolgavin said:


> Hi Zebedee and welcome to motorhomefacts, strangely you do look a little familiar
> I like your picture but that is certainly not catherine and I being carted away as we would surely not wear such unfashionable scarves!!
> 
> If it is in fact us we have obviously been caught on a spying mission to Fiat/Peugeot and are in hot pursuit of techy bloke in front! He looks like he is carrying one of the new but  sadly unobtainable engine covers.
> So whats new on the old scuttlegate front today then??
> Same as yesterday diddly squat. Gonna go and have a wee  and chill before watching rangers v barcelona-----who???
> 
> Dave bet you are regretting giving me all those wee emoticons


Hi Zebs 
Found a nice one for you in return. Neat eh?









Hi Carol.
Stop with all the emotions you wont get those where we're going!! :lol: 
Regards 
Catherine


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Now everythings all sorted can we play out pleeeeeeease?*



Zebedee said:


> Hi Carol.
> Stop with all the emotions you wont get those where we're going!! :lol:
> Regards
> Catherine


You are right petal better use them while I can then!!!!


----------



## 1happy

*Problem Re. Join S.W.E.A.R. Today - the coolest club in town*

*Hi All.
I wish to nominate this post/thread by Zebedee (AKA Sanatogen) as worthy of a Medal.*  
*Already seconded & thirded on its original thread *HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-34626-swear.html
But not coming to the front page like they normally do :roll:  :roll:

Please feel free to add your voice if you agree its in good humour on a subject that has at times been fraught 

*NB:-I have edited to remove the quote....so click the link & agree with the nomination if you wish.*


----------



## Jodiedog

I'm not really in to all this computer-talk on this site.

Did the petition get handed over to Fiat at the NEC?

If so - what was their reaction?

Regards


----------



## 1happy

Hi Jodiedog.
Firstly I would like to say welcome to MHF......as a newbie you may not be aware of how much many members have been through to try & resolve this issue :!:  
A check of the links on the first page of this thread will give you an idea of the desperation felt by some including myself.

Secondly I did wonder how soon someone ask your question :idea: 
So now I will quote from the petition

*"It is our intention to present this petition at the N.E.C. International Caravan and Motorhome Show 16th to 21st of October 2007.
I am letting the petition run for a year to ensure our concerns over damage are fully addressed long term.
PLEASE SIGN OUR PETITION TO DEMONSTRATE THAT IT IS UNFAIR OF LARGE CORPORATIONS TO TREAT THEIR CUSTOMERS THIS WAY!"*

In conclusion two things happened just prior to the N.E.C that made it more or less pointless to present the petition.

1/ Fiat (But sadly not Peugeot) started to respond after over 6 months of silence :!: :roll: 
2/ Because the petition was designed to run for a year it has served its first purpose in perhaps showing we can have our voices heard if need be & serves as a safeguard to ensure we get fair treatment longer term.

I hope this answers your question & please feel free to sign in support of fellow members (if you haven't done so already)  as its not totally resolved yet :!:


----------



## Tucano

*MMM Magazine re water ingress on Fiat x250*

1happy, Catherine,
Sorry I have been so long replying to your post, I don't have easy access to the net these days.
The reply that MMM gave to a guy with the water ingress problem was,

"Not again, the same problem plagued the previous model for years. Reports on similar incidents requested.
It is probably only significant on vehicles that stand for long periods. In daily use engine heat keeps everything dry. "

In the original letter to the magazine the guy said that only two main dealers had reported the matter to Product Concern.

Has anyone else thought of contacting MMM magazine, they do say that they want reports of similar incidents,

Regards, Norman


----------



## 1happy

*Re: MMM Magazine re water ingress on Fiat x250*



TUCANO said:


> Sorry I have been so long replying to your post, I don't have easy access to the net these days.
> The reply that MMM gave to a guy with the water ingress problem was,
> 
> "Not again, the same problem plagued the previous model for years. Reports on similar incidents requested.
> It is probably only significant on vehicles that stand for long periods. In daily use engine heat keeps everything dry. "
> 
> In the original letter to the magazine the guy said that only two main dealers had reported the matter to Product Concern.
> 
> Has anyone else thought of contacting MMM magazine, they do say that they want reports of similar incidents,
> 
> Regards, Norman


Hi TUCANO.
Thanks for the reply & info  
I am sure some members have contacted MMM magazine & they will no doubt be along to confirm if is the case!!
I do not understand why it has taken so long for them to mention this in the magazine :roll: 
Even their own forum has threads on this issue :!: :roll: 
I also believe that one magazine was telephoning dealers to ask about this issue & had apparently only got a "not a problem" type of response from FiART.
They could have easily got a wealth of information from here & their own forum :roll: & covered the story from a "reported concerns" angle, one can only guess at why they have not done this :roll: 
The MMM forum doesn't appear to have an email link for readers (not one I can find!) to email about "concerns" other links yes 8O 
If anyone knows of an email address to tell them as *"they do say that they want reports of similar incidents"* then perhaps they could tell us on here & I for one will email them.


----------



## 1happy

*YouTube !*

Just a quick message Re "The Motorhome Channel" 




If anyone does know an email address for MMM ?
I could then send them a link to this brilliant video and they could SEE what all the fuss has been about!
regards 1happy


----------



## Zebedee

Hi Catherine

Found it.

Rachel Stothert is on the ball I believe, and has recently been promoted to deputy editor, so she may be the best person to contact.

[email protected]

Hope this helps

Zebedee


----------



## Grizzly

We have just collected the van from the Fiat commercial dealer who has had it since yesterday. He has:

Cleaned and sprayed the top of the engine , a two part process that takes 4 hours to complete.

Put a shield over the starter motor

Re-sited the ABS blocks

He is still waiting for the parts from Fiat to deal with the water ingress fault - now the only outstanding fault on this particular van. He will get back to Fiat to say that he cannot complete the work and he expects that Fiat will then call us when the parts are ready.

We looked to see if there were any photos we could take but apart from a rather cleaner top of engine with what looks like a brownish varnish on it there is nothing to be seen.

It is 7 months today to the day that the van went in for the first time to have the water ingress problem fixed.  I have a file the size of a brick on the subject.

When it finally is fixed I think we'll have a party !

G


----------



## 1happy

*MMM November!*

*Hi Zebedee.
Just sent this to the link you provided...Thanks lets hope we get a response*.................................................................................................
Re November MMM letters page regarding Water ingress/gentleman with this problem!
Link of interest for more information.HERE>> 




If you also have a look at concerned owners HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-34317-days0-orderasc-0.html

Online petition (majority) are affected owners!! HERE>> http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot

NB:-Your "Out and about" forum also discusses this issue

If you could RSVP after looking at the links with your thoughts it would be much apprieciated
Yours Sincerely
Signed.


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: MMM November!*



1happy said:


> *Hi Zebedee.
> Just sent this to the link you provided...Thanks lets hope we get a response*.................................................................................................
> Re November MMM letters page regarding Water ingress/gentleman with this problem!
> Link of interest for more information.HERE>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you also have a look at concerned owners HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-34317-days0-orderasc-0.html
> 
> Online petition (majority) are affected owners!! HERE>> http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot
> 
> NB:-Your "Out and about" forum also discusses this issue
> 
> If you could RSVP after looking at the links with your thoughts it would be much apprieciated
> Yours Sincerely
> Signed.


Hi guys I e-mailed this rachael on 15/08/07 as at that time they were looking for people to tell them of the problem of course I promptly told her of ours. I got one reply back and then nothing................why is that so familiar I wonder????? I sent pics etc and have e-mailed another twicw since then and have been ignored!! 
Sorry but this may be yet another dead end and now I have just seen Tramps post. Mind made up will fight tooth and nail for money back not putting up with this sort of treatment!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:


----------



## 1happy

*You are doing the right thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Hi Carol.
I am so glad you have made a stand at the time you did.(IE early!) 8) 
Our news is just getting worse :roll: :roll: :roll: 
The latest thread HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=35123
So to the person or persons who say "cosmetic" & "nothing to worry about" 
I say  this>>









*Very grown up I know,But someone somewhere must think we are stupid* :roll:


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

Well just for the purpose of the tape, here is a pic of my engine taken two weeks ago. It looks a lot worse now.

Russell


----------



## 1happy

*Re: MMM November!*



carolgavin said:


> Hi guys I e-mailed this rachael on 15/08/07 as at that time they were looking for people to tell them of the problem of course I promptly told her of ours. I got one reply back and then nothing................why is that so familiar I wonder????? I sent pics etc and have e-mailed another twicw since then and have been ignored!!
> Sorry but this may be yet another dead end and now I have just seen Tramps post. Mind made up will fight tooth and nail for money back not putting up with this sort of treatment!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:


Hi Carol  
I knew someone had  but has anyone else?

*I think things are going from bad from worse more confusion today over extra recalls * :roll:

HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-35123-.html
:roll: 8O :roll: 8O :roll:


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: MMM November!*



1happy said:


> *I think things are going from bad from worse more confusion today over extra recalls * :roll:
> 
> HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-35123-.html
> :roll: 8O :roll: 8O :roll:


Catherine...I don't think there is any confusion. The situation remains the same. There are several recalls out there BUT not all apply to every Fiat van. Different faults appear in different batches of vans that came off the production lines.

As I have said repeatedly; ring a Fiat  commercial vehicle  dealer, give him your VIN number and he will tell you which - if any- of the recalls apply to your van. Then you must make an appointment to get them sorted.

G


----------



## 1happy

*Recalls ?*

Hi G.
I will do as you suggest in a few days!
As this quoted from the link suggests.... not known yet!...
*"also 3 more recalls to be advised at a latter date." *
Was quite worrying and after all we have been through a little paranoia is the least of my worries.
thanks for your advice.
Regards Catherine

 Forgot to mention if Fiat haven't notified the dealer what they are yet...that is the worrying thing for me!!


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Recalls ?*



1happy said:


> Forgot to mention if Fiat haven't notified the dealer what they are yet...that is the worrying thing for me!!


The information in the link is out of date. The commercial dealers have been advised of the recalls. Many do not apply to all vans and all can be sorted now, except the water ingress prevention. Even the cleaning up of the results of that can be done.

As has been seen in another thread on this forum we are not doing ourselves - as owners of Fiat X250s- any favours by belabouring the topic or spreading alarm and despondency.

I'm not under-estimating the grossness of Fiat's mistakes; I've been dealing with them since March remember, longer than most others on this site, BUT they are now getting things together to sort it out and we must let them get on with it.

G


----------



## 1happy

*Recalls.*

Hi Grizzly.
Just realised your post suggests you may not have read the thread I am referring to... so I have copied and pasted below.
*The point I am referring to is no one knows yet what the 3 new recalls are!!!* :idea: 
...........................................................................................................
hi all, 
yesterday i saw fiats responce in ritting at " essajay in poole" 
it said the following. 
1-injector area to be cleaned with special liquid then treated with a coating that takes 4 hours to dry 
2-cover for abs unit 
3-cover for alternators to prevent shorting due to water ingress{ we all know from were} 
4-also 3 more recalls to be advised at a latter date.

they fiat are NOT going to fit engine covers even though they admit they are fitted to other fiat engines [ iveco to be exact]

No new scuttle or modification or selling of windscreen area.

so looks like weve been SHAFTED once again do they think we are hoing to take this lying down , maybe if we all rejected are vans and asked for a full refund they would do something about it.

Essajay said they are waiting for fiat to contact customers then get them in to do the work when parts are available , apparently they are in procuction.

tramp
.........................................................................................................


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Recalls.*



1happy said:


> Hi Grizzly.
> Just realised your post suggests you may not have read the thread I am referring to... so I have copied and pasted below.
> *The point I am referring to is no one knows yet what the 3 new recalls are!!!* :idea:
> ...........................................................................................................
> hi all,
> yesterday i saw fiats responce in ritting at " essajay in poole"
> it said the following.
> 1-injector area to be cleaned with special liquid then treated with a coating that takes 4 hours to dry
> 2-cover for abs unit
> 3-cover for alternators to prevent shorting due to water ingress{ we all know from were}
> 4-also 3 more recalls to be advised at a latter date.
> 
> they fiat are NOT going to fit engine covers even though they admit they are fitted to other fiat engines [ iveco to be exact]
> 
> No new scuttle or modification or selling of windscreen area.
> 
> so looks like weve been SHAFTED once again do they think we are hoing to take this lying down , maybe if we all rejected are vans and asked for a full refund they would do something about it.
> 
> Essajay said they are waiting for fiat to contact customers then get them in to do the work when parts are available , apparently they are in procuction.
> 
> tramp
> .........................................................................................................


That is the quote I am referring to as well.

Remember that most new vehicles come with their quota of faults. These are rectified, away from publicity, at the first service of the vehicle concerned. This has not happened with the X250, rightly or wrongly.

There are still engine mountings to be checked ( possible causes for the judder when reversing) and possibly the high discharge rate of the engine battery when the vehicle is not used. Both of these points have been mentioned on the forum so they are not new and unknown.

G


----------



## 1happy

*Recalls.*

Hi Grizzly
I think we are posting simultaneously.
I had not realised the info was out of date..
As the posting we refer to was made today & in reference to yesterday!
I have no wish to alarm anyone or any of the things you mention.
I may not have been in the know since march but we may have to disagree on how "together" Fiat are getting as I see it they don't send letters they promise & display many other inadequacies in customer care.
It saddens me that some other members are annoyed by our threads over the problem.
I only wish I had the luxury of looking in from the outside 
OR
The confidence to wait patiently & trustingly :roll: 
I don't know what else to say except I have tried to bring threads together to minimise impact on the forum & have tried to keep my postings to this one thread.

Just seen your last reply,like I say almost "simultaneous postings"
Now I can't figure out what type of ping pong we are playing :roll: 
Regards Catherine


----------



## Grizzly

Hi Catherine...honest, I'm not trying to criticise the excellent job - very necessary too- you've done in pulling all the threads together and coordinating the campaign.

Fiat's biggest mistake to my mind is not the actual leak itself, which I agree is serious- but the way they have dealt with it. If, way back at the beginning of the year they had come out and said something along these lines:

_Yes, we've made a boob. There is a fault. We'll contact all who are affected pronto and make sure that temporary measures are taken to stop the water getting onto the engine. We'll then look for a proper fix and again recall to get it sorted. We will repay- on production of receipts- all the money used for fuel by those affected._

This would have defused the anger that we have felt in dealing with a firm who not only ignore us but try to make out that they know nothing about any fault and keep their dealers in ignorance too.

I have e-mails and letters from various Fiat executives that show they knew about this but, for whatever reason, were trying to hide it.

I don't want to rub Peter Smith's nose in it but I think his admitting that Swift had problems with customer relations and doing a magnificent job of putting things right, has done nothing but good for the firm.

G


----------



## Zebedee

Grizzly said:


> Hi Catherine...honest, I'm not trying to criticise the excellent job - very necessary too- you've done in pulling all the threads together and coordinating the campaign.


Morning Catherine

I'd go even further than Grizzly and say that I think Fiat would still be safely in hiding were it not for your tireless management of the campaign. Without it they could (and probably would) have simply ignored a few individuals, but the force of the campaign has rattled their cage enough to make them sit up and take notice.

I also agree entirely with the rest of what Grizzly says (nice to meet another genius Grizz. :roll: :roll: ). If Fiat had owned up in the first place we would still have had a long wait I've no doubt, but it would have been far, far less stressful.

In the meantime I am trying hard to do what you yourself suggest Catherine.



> I only wish I had the . . . . confidence to wait patiently & trustingly


though I'm not too sure about the "trustingly".

Don't let the b******s grind you down.

Zebedee


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat engine*

Hi

Here is todays pic.

Russell


----------



## 1happy

*Are we doing more harm than good by "protesting" ?*

*Hi Water babies  .
Just a couple of questions to ask concerned/affected members * :idea:

1/ It has been claimed our protesting is hurting our vans residual value !
2/ It has also been mentioned that our threads are winding members up !

*I would like affected members views on the above :?: *
NB:- This not designed to create an argument only to judge the opinion of those affected & the with most to lose :!: .

Also I deliberately am not starting a new thread to minimise the impact on other users & therefore not wind anyone up!  Here's hoping :roll:

Regards 1happy/Catherine


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Catherine

I have to say - fight on - Fight the Pirates as Speedferries say.

Russell


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Are we doing more harm than good by "protesting&quo*



1happy said:


> 1/ It has been claimed our protesting is hurting our vans residual value !
> 2/ It has also been mentioned that our threads are winding members up !
> 1happy/Catherine


Catherine; I'm not aware that either claim has been made against this protest.

It is not however a coincidence that a thread was started recently in which several members stated that they would not buy a secondhand Fiat X250 precisely because of the water ingress problem. Inevitably, if this is true of many people, then the value of our vans will be affected.

As to the thread winding people up. To some extent, speaking personally, the fact that others share the burden is for the good. Those of us who bought early vans have, I think, felt very alone in our dealings with Fiat. 
Again though, we must avoid giving the -wrong- impression that the van is no good. The van is a delight to drive and generally well- built. When the ingress problem is sorted, as it will be, it will be a good buy for anyone. What is wrong is Fiat's attitude to us, their customers. That is what we need to highlight.

The "battle" is being won. They have now come out, recognised the fault, and are doing something to rectify it. We need to keep up a gentle pressure but not to frighten off others who might buy new or second hand Fiats.

G


----------



## 101075

I am with Grizzly on this one, we can't just sit back and say nothing because it may effect the re-sale values of our motorhomes. There is a problem and I truely feel that this forum has been instrumental in getting Fiats' attention.


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Are we doing more harm than good by "protesting&amp*



1happy said:


> *Hi Water babies  .
> Just a couple of questions to ask concerned/affected members * :idea:
> 
> 1/ It has been claimed our protesting is hurting our vans residual value !
> 2/ It has also been mentioned that our threads are winding members up !
> 
> *I would like affected members views on the above :?: *
> NB:- This not designed to create an argument only to judge the opinion of those affected & the with most to lose :!: .
> 
> Also I deliberately am not starting a new thread to minimise the impact on other users & therefore not wind anyone up!  Here's hoping :roll:
> 
> Regards 1happy/Catherine


1. I think what will affect our vans residual value is the crappy scuttle design which lets in water, note they have no 'fix' for this because it will cost too much to redesign the thing. We have on the other hand gerryd's experts saying that the water/electrics mix is 'not desirable' and that there is a chance it may cause problems in the future with injector removal. Whether it will or not is a moot point cos we simply do not know.
FACT....they have manufactured a cover to protect the electrics etc from the water, surely superfluous if not problematic
FACT.....they have doled these out to the dealers to cover up rusting in new vans at the NEC, surely superfluous, but not if you want to sell vans!!
FACT... their announcements are made promising action...then nothing!!
FACT....no one has had a permanent 100% fix despite some of us, notably grizzly, having been at them since March!!

Basically the van is a good un with err technical difficulties and seriously bad customer service and for that alone Fiat/Peugeot should be ashamed.

2. Winding members up.....tricky one I have no wish to alienate ANY members from making a comment pos or neg on scuttlegate and appreciate if you are not involved it can get possibly get tiresome. Again I would ask these members to bear with us til resolution which there surely will be, after all it's not our fault it has dragged on for so long.
In conclusion apologies if you find this topic boring/tiresome/irritating/annoying/intrusive/desperate or quite frankly rubbish  But hopefully most people have respect for what we are doing and actually wish us well for a mutual resolution.
Maybe we should move the whole topic to the members bar and we can discuss til our hearts content without it appearing on front pages and keep a thread for updates only, that way we will not occupy the threads with discussion but little news.


----------



## smick

*Fiat Water Ingress*

As one of those who felt that the whole site was being taken over at one point by endless postings, let me say that I don't have a problem with the campaign to get Fiat to honour their responsibilities. However, a lot of postings have simply re-iterated the same information ad nauseam, which seems rather pointless.

Fiat seem to be living up to their reputation i.e "*F*ix *I*t *A*gain *T*omorrow", with vans going backwards and forwards from dealer to customer to Fiat garage - a common enough occurrence over the last 15 years - which is why those of us who have had Sevel vans before, now know NOT to buy from them again.

I have no doubt that when it goes, it is indeed a splendid machine - but the bottom line is that it is[/U] flawed, and with the publicity that this thread has generated, there will be a lot of people who won't be buying them when they come on the market secondhand in a year or two. That is bound to affect resale values.

I agree with Grizzly that now Fiat have actually had to come out and admit there is a problem, people should actually give them a period of a month to get things sorted. After that, I think it would be fair game to start savaging them again.

I can well understand the frustration and feelings of powerlessness when confronting an organisation like Fiat - but you've actually made them take notice.

Smick


----------



## 1happy

*Are we doing more harm than good by "protesting" ?*

Hi.  
Some interesting responses so far :wink: 
I plan to respond shortly & hope we can have a few more answers before I do (So as not to spoil the input from the afflicted!!)  
Thanks all  
Catherine


----------



## 107576

Hi All 
I am a new member to this site i only found it by mistake i was looking for the water ingress problem on google and it came up with the petition and then a thread back to this site i was really pleased to see that i am not the only person in the country with this problem , and have been following the topic with interest , i am now a fully paid up member so that i can add my comments to this topic as well , all i am going to say is that i have read a lot of the other topics whilst searching through this site i have no interest in them so i would not bother to follow them so i can not see why this water ingress problem is offending other members if you are not interested why follow it ? 
Regards 
Adrian


----------



## Zebedee

smick said:


> I have no doubt that when it goes, it is indeed a splendid machine - but the bottom line is that it is flawed


Who could disagree with you Smick, but show me a machine that *isn't *flawed. :?

This particular problem has been ultra high profile on here for a while, but apart from the relatively small number of *active *MHF forum members I doubt if the rest of the M/H fraternity is more than vaguely aware of it.

This wil be just like the "_politician has wicked way with secretary_" news items that come and go so regularly. A week after it's all blown over nobody will give it another thought.

Interesting points you made though, even if we disagree on this particular aspect.

Cheers

Zeb


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: Fiat Water Ingress*



smick said:


> I agree with Grizzly that now Fiat have actually had to come out and admit there is a problem, people should actually give them a period of a month to get things sorted.


I don't think it works like that. They have been admitting the problem for weeks now, but still there is little or no information from Fiat on what they're actually going to do about it. They have known for months that there is a problem, and I suspect they hoped it would go away.

Their official statement was a nonsense, and made it sound like they were moving heaven and earth to appease a few who were complaining.

Even Fiat dealers aren't sure what the problem is, or what they're supposed to do about it. The situation from Peugeot sounds even worse.

Gerald


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: covers*



SwiftGroup said:


> I had a meeting at the NEC with no less than six Fiat personnell at a very senior level.I put forward the concerns of the members on the forum and they do understand now the difference between a motorhome user and a 'white van man'.I have a further meeting at the factory next week to discuus the way forward reference the issue of shedding water from the screen. Peter.


This is so disappointing, Peter. "No less that six senior personnel ...", and you're having a meeting next week to discuss the way forward? I can't believe that. Why should you be having a meeting to discuss the way forward? Surely the way forward is to fix the problem?

It's not rocket science. Anyone with any mechanical savvy can see the problem, and could work out a solution in about half a day - someone on here has already done that. Why can't Fiat do this? Why are they still having meetings about this? Why aren't Fiat coming on here and telling us directly what they're doing? If they can't give you direct answers, what chance have we got?

<sigh>

I have 3 questions for you to ask at the meeting.

"Please tell me, so I can tell the MotorhomeFacts members:
a) _*exactly*_ what you're doing to fix this problem
b) what recalls and cautions and issues are currently in motion for these vans
c) when *exactly* is all this going to happen?"

Part of the problem is that we're hearing different stories from different people and different garages. It's clear (at least to me, anyway) that the information is not being disseminated properly. If (as you imply) you have the ear of top Fiat personnel, why are they not giving you precise information on this issue?

Time for bed, I think.

Gerald


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*

Hi All.
*I apologise in advance....this is an epic....But it had to be done!!!!!*
I've been pondering on this "issue" and it is well documented what my concerns have been, I admit I've been a little "knee jerk" on the reactions front at times. sorry!

I thank everyone who's taken the time & replied to the two questions below that I posted yesterday



> 1/ It has been claimed our protesting is hurting our vans residual value !
> 2/ It has also been mentioned that our threads are winding members up !
> I would like affected members views on the above


Before I give my views I would like to explain where I am coming from (as it were)

As a child I read a book that had a lasting impact on the way I have tried to conduct myself & how I have treated others.

The book was The Water Babies by Charles Kingsley and the most memorable character apart from poor little Tom was *Mrs. Doasyouwouldbedoneby.*
Those who have read the book may remember the importance of these characters 
Those who have not, may wish to see a "squashed" version HERE>> http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/waterbabies.htm

The point is not all are aware (or care) how we affect other peoples lives! Fiat & Peugeot would be wise to take note! :lookslikerain: (insomniac yes!!! ramblings! Not!!!!)

*So...back to the point & the other issues "here" as highlighted by the question quoted!*
I have been struggling for a while to find the right words to sum up some of the "issues" with this "issue"

I decided that one way might be to ask affected (or even interested people) what they thought :idea: 
The "faults" of the new (& some old!) Fiats & Peugeots are discussed at some length on this forum as indeed are other things such as Dealers,parts,models etc, as indeed they should be, that is what a forum is for, is it not ?

So I think some reply's have said brilliant & note worthy points and I apologise if I cherry pick pertinent points.



> As to the thread winding people up. To some extent, speaking personally, the fact that others share the burden is for the good. Those of us who bought early vans have, I think, felt very alone in our dealings with Fiat.
> Again though, we must avoid giving the -wrong- impression that the van is no good. The van is a delight to drive and generally well- built. When the ingress problem is sorted, as it will be, it will be a good buy for anyone. What is wrong is Fiat's attitude to us, their customers. That is what we need to highlight.


*I totally agree with the above & it must be very frustrating to have been affected since march :clock: & know vans were still built,sold & bought with what was presumably an avoidable defect!!*



> we can't just sit back and say nothing because it may effect the re-sale values of our motorhomes. There is a problem and I truely feel that this forum has been instrumental in getting Fiats' attention.


I have said before & I repeat these companies have been building vehicles for over a hundred years! and *to get water ingress through poor design like this beggars belief *! 
They may have underestimated the power of the internet & hopefully now realise they can not behave this way towards their customers or we will all know about it & vote with our wallets!! and then where will *they* be ? ottytrain5:



> 1. I think what will affect our vans residual value is the crappy scuttle design which lets in water, note they have no 'fix' for this because it will cost too much to redesign the thing.


Either that or they can't be bothered or they can't work out a fix! 
Which ever it turns out to be it's not very confidence inspiring :hathat3:



> We have on the other hand gerryd's experts saying that the water/electrics mix is 'not desirable' and that there is a chance it may cause problems in the future with injector removal. Whether it will or not is a moot point cos we simply do not know.


:microwave: Water ! Electrics ! Hush your tongue girl



> FACT....they have manufactured a cover to protect the electrics etc from the water, surely superfluous if not problematic
> FACT.....they have doled these out to the dealers to cover up rusting in new vans at the NEC, surely superfluous, but not if you want to sell vans!!
> FACT... their announcements are made promising action...then nothing!!
> FACT....no one has had a permanent 100% fix despite some of us, notably grizzly, having been at them since March!!
> 
> Basically the van is a good un with err technical difficulties and seriously bad customer service and for that alone Fiat/Peugeot should be ashamed.


You & I were definitely separated at birth! Either that or you have my house bugged :director:



> 2. Winding members up.....tricky one I have no wish to alienate ANY members from making a comment pos or neg on scuttlegate and appreciate if you are not involved it can get possibly get tiresome. Again I would ask these members to bear with us til resolution which there surely will be, after all it's not our fault it has dragged on for so long.
> In conclusion apologies if you find this topic boring/tiresome/irritating/annoying/intrusive/desperate or quite frankly rubbish But hopefully most people have respect for what we are doing and actually wish us well for a mutual resolution.


 :smilecolros: Positive & Negative contributions are all good, ones that force their opinions & *tell* us what to do ( & deflect the topic) are a problem!



> Maybe we should move the whole topic to the members bar and we can discuss til our hearts content without it appearing on front pages and keep a thread for updates only, that way we will not occupy the threads with discussion but little news.


Sounds sensible but what about newbies :newb: they could miss so much!
Far better *I think if the mods have a sticky* reminding *all members* to check for *existing threads before starting a new one*, 
something I have learned not to do  after my inexperience had got the better of me!



> As one of those who felt that the whole site was being taken over at one point by endless postings, let me say that I don't have a problem with the campaign to get Fiat to honour their responsibilities. However, a lot of postings have simply re-iterated the same information ad nauseam, which seems rather pointless.
> 
> Fiat seem to be living up to their reputation i.e "Fix It Again Tomorrow", with vans going backwards and forwards from dealer to customer to Fiat garage - a common enough occurrence over the last 15 years - which is why those of us who have had Sevel vans before, now know NOT to buy from them again.
> 
> I have no doubt that when it goes, it is indeed a splendid machine - but the bottom line is that it is[/U] flawed, and with the publicity that this thread has generated, there will be a lot of people who won't be buying them when they come on the market secondhand in a year or two. That is bound to affect resale values.
> 
> I agree with Grizzly that now Fiat have actually had to come out and admit there is a problem, people should actually give them a period of a month to get things sorted. After that, I think it would be fair game to start savaging them again.
> 
> I can well understand the frustration and feelings of powerlessness when confronting an organisation like Fiat - but you've actually made them take notice.


Some of the above points I agree with & some I don't but have left them in entirety so as not to quote "out of context"



> I am a new member to this site i only found it by mistake i was looking for the water ingress problem on google and it came up with the petition and then a thread back to this site i was really pleased to see that i am not the only person in the country with this problem , and have been following the topic with interest , i am now a fully paid up member so that i can add my comments to this topic as well , all i am going to say is that i have read a lot of the other topics whilst searching through this site i have no interest in them so i would not bother to follow them so i can not see why this water ingress problem is offending other members if you are not interested why follow it ?


Bravo exactly the sort of :sign2: person we need to hear from !!



> They have been admitting the problem for weeks now, but still there is little or no information from Fiat on what they're actually going to do about it. They have known for months that there is a problem, and I suspect they hoped it would go away.
> 
> Their official statement was a nonsense, and made it sound like they were moving heaven and earth to appease a few who were complaining.
> 
> Even Fiat dealers aren't sure what the problem is, or what they're supposed to do about it. The situation from Peugeot sounds even worse.


Exactly the reason why the petition was set to run for a year http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot
They can run (or make empty promises :roll: ) but they can't hide :homework:

*And last but not least !!!*



> SwiftGroup wrote:
> I had a meeting at the NEC with no less than six Fiat personnell at a very senior level.I put forward the concerns of the members on the forum and they do understand now the difference between a motorhome user and a 'white van man'.I have a further meeting at the factory next week to discuus the way forward reference the issue of shedding water from the screen. Peter.


 *:hello1: I think all members will agree Swift/Peter has put in a lot of effort on this one & I have joined the fanclub.
But are Fiat doing right by him ? *​
The last quote (below) sums up the biggest issues so brilliantly that I just had to highlight & underline, rather than "put it in a box"
In my opinion although it is directed at Peter (in so much as he has been a go between) it can equally be said to Fiat,Peugeot,the dealers & converters selling these vans and anyone who thinks we are "banging on" about nothing!

*This is so disappointing, Peter. "No less that six senior personnel ...", and you're having a meeting next week to discuss the way forward? I can't believe that. Why should you be having a meeting to discuss the way forward? Surely the way forward is to fix the problem?

It's not rocket science. Anyone with any mechanical savvy can see the problem, and could work out a solution in about half a day - someone on here has already done that. Why can't Fiat do this? Why are they still having meetings about this? Why aren't Fiat coming on here and telling us directly what they're doing? If they can't give you direct answers, what chance have we got?

<sigh>

I have 3 questions for you to ask at the meeting.

"Please tell me, so I can tell the MotorhomeFacts members: 
a) exactly what you're doing to fix this problem 
b) what recalls and cautions and issues are currently in motion for these vans 
c) when exactly is all this going to happen?"

Part of the problem is that we're hearing different stories from different people and different garages. It's clear (at least to me, anyway) that the information is not being disseminated properly. If (as you imply) you have the ear of top Fiat personnel, why are they not giving you precise information on this issue?*

*I have taken a few hours (& probably an entire page) to do this epic & have one other thought.....I bet the person who noticed there were too few lifeboats on the Titanic wished he'd raised his concern's loudly!
Thats not to say we have a catastrophe on our hands, but for those of us who have spent £30,000 to £50,000 (or more) it is of genuine concern *

Finally I have some other pressing matters to attend to which Is why I wanted to gauge opinion & try to clarify some of the issues.
I thank everyone for their input & support & hope Fiat & Peugeot & all guilty parties learn from these discussions that..
..WE ARE NOT MUSHROOMS DON'T TREAT US LIKE WE ARE :whdat:

*Just in case I haven't mentioned it before ** the petition is sticking around until next September. 
So Fiat,Peugeot & all connected trades take heed.....upset customers are not good for business *


----------



## rrusty

Hi 1happy/ Catherine,
I am 100% in agreement with what you are doing I just wish there was more pressure we could put on Fiat to get this resolved. 

Regards rrusty


----------



## Zebedee

Morning Catherine

Just a quick thought before I dash out. It may be useless, or may have been thought of 100 times already, but worth throwing into the pot.

1. We need publicity.
2. Newshounds are always looking for something negative to put in their rags.
3. Give them something! Threaten to do something newsworthy.

If it gets into a couple of local papers first, extracts can be sent to the bigger ones and put on U-tube etc..

Not sure what to suggest and have little time this morning, but somebody will come up with an idea. We won't actually have to do it if the threat sounds plausible enough to wind them up.

Ignore if you think it's a daft idea, but we are so media-driven these days it could work. Might even get a bit on telly. Clarkson would love to heap insults and derision on motorhomes, and anything reaching the wider audience that might clobber sales is likely to get Fiat worried.

Keep up the good work

Zeb

P.S. NOT a demonstration though. Infantile waste of time as a rule. All those Sunday demos in London to cause maximum disruption???? Who cares??? London is shut on Sunday, or didn't anyone notice. :roll: :roll:


----------



## Grizzly

Zebedee said:


> 1. We need publicity.
> 2. Newshounds are always looking for something negative to put in their rags.
> 3. Give them something! Threaten to do something newsworthy.
> Zeb


Zeb... All of above; not now, because:

1.For the very good reason that we don't want to talk down the X2/50 in the eyes of potential used vehicle buyers

2. Fiat are finally acknowledging the fault and rectifying it. What is the point of souring future relationships ?

3.There are enough lies and half-truths in our newspapers already. This story is, believe it or not, more complex than it seems and I can see the mess that the tabloids would make of it rebounding on all of us.

G

PS when did you see a bit in the paper about the bonnet catch on Renaults ? That, to my mind is 100% more dangerous than this could ever be and far more deserving of major publicity.


----------



## dawnraider

Well I have not read all of the posts, and maybe somebody has suggested it previously, but how about a motorhome convoy of vehicles affected by the problem that converges in Central London.


regards and thanks Ken


----------



## DC4JC

I think its accepted that people are frustrated by this situation, me included as it affects me also.
However, surely the point is that Fiat have acknowledged a problem, have issued directives to their dealers, are providing a 'fix' and as such we should now give them adequate time to provide said fix before stepping up any actions and as previously mentioned possibly 'souring relations'.

Although relations might not be that good at least we have seen some activity recently. Like most major manufacturers or businesses it can take some time to deliver the requirements to everyones satisfaction due to the size of the operation, getting decisions made, making the modification, setting up production lines etc, etc. 

Therefore I feel we ought to give them a little longer to achieve what is required before we up the anti.

I have no connection with Fiat, Swift or dealers, just a sense of reality. But I have made it clear to the above that I will give them time to complete the modification, which if unsuccessful I will reject the motorhome.


----------



## zulurita

BRAVO Catherine,

Grizzly does have a point and we do not want our motorhomes to be worthless when we next trade them in.

HOWEVER we DO WANT FIAT AND OTHERS to take some positive action. They are taking action over some things, hence the recalls/campaigns BUT NOT effective enough re windscreen scuttle it seems. HOWEVER until I get my new motorhome I cannot say whether any repairs/modifications are effective or not.

WHAT WOULD BE HELPFUL is for FIAT to make sure ALL dealers are able to get the parts QUICKLY so the work can be carried out with the minimum of inconvenience to US the customer.

If it turns out that trade in values will be affected then FIAT should be LIABLE for this!!!! As they and motorhome manufacturers and dealers are selling the product WELL AWARE OF THIS ISSUE!

AND ALL ARE STATING IT IS ONLY COSMETIC AND DOES NOT AFFECT THE VEHICLE!! So to my mind they cannot then turn round a give us a BAD TRADE IN PRICE!!!


----------



## geraldandannie

zulurita said:


> AND ALL ARE STATING IT IS ONLY COSMETIC AND DOES NOT AFFECT THE VEHICLE!! So to my mind they cannot then turn round a give us a BAD TRADE IN PRICE!!!


Good point, Rita. IMHO, I don't think it will affect the trade-in price, as long as the repairs / modifications are done to Fiat's specifications. Hopefully, when the time comes, this issue will be long forgotten. I've never been aware of any recalls or cautions or issues with vehicles when I've come to purchase / part-ex.

Something occurred to me as I cycled to work today - these 'covers' that were present on the vans at the NEC, but that now seem to be weeks away from being available to us prols. I wonder whether they were purely a cosmetic device, used to cover up any signs of rusting already present on the show vehicles, and that in actual fact, they don't form part of the 'fix'? After all, if they stop water getting in the engine bay, why is there any need for a cover? they obviously didn't consider it necessary to fit one from new.

Just a thought.

Gerald


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*



1happy said:


> Hi All.
> *I apologise in advance....this is an epic....But it had to be done!!!!!*
> I've been pondering on this "issue" and it is well documented what my concerns have been, I admit I've been a little "knee jerk" on the reactions front at times. sorry!
> 
> I thank everyone who's taken the time & replied to the two questions below that I posted yesterday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1/ It has been claimed our protesting is hurting our vans residual value !
> 2/ It has also been mentioned that our threads are winding members up !
> I would like affected members views on the above
> 
> 
> 
> Before I give my views I would like to explain where I am coming from (as it were)
> 
> As a child I read a book that had a lasting impact on the way I have tried to conduct myself & how I have treated others.
> 
> The book was The Water Babies by Charles Kingsley and the most memorable character apart from poor little Tom was *Mrs. Doasyouwouldbedoneby.*
> Those who have read the book may remember the importance of these characters
> Those who have not, may wish to see a "squashed" version HERE>> http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughes/squashed/waterbabies.htm
> 
> The point is not all are aware (or care) how we affect other peoples lives! Fiat & Peugeot would be wise to take note! :lookslikerain: (insomniac yes!!! ramblings! Not!!!!)
> 
> *So...back to the point & the other issues "here" as highlighted by the question quoted!*
> I have been struggling for a while to find the right words to sum up some of the "issues" with this "issue"
> 
> I decided that one way might be to ask affected (or even interested people) what they thought :idea:
> The "faults" of the new (& some old!) Fiats & Peugeots are discussed at some length on this forum as indeed are other things such as Dealers,parts,models etc, as indeed they should be, that is what a forum is for, is it not ?
> 
> So I think some reply's have said brilliant & note worthy points and I apologise if I cherry pick pertinent points.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As to the thread winding people up. To some extent, speaking personally, the fact that others share the burden is for the good. Those of us who bought early vans have, I think, felt very alone in our dealings with Fiat.
> Again though, we must avoid giving the -wrong- impression that the van is no good. The van is a delight to drive and generally well- built. When the ingress problem is sorted, as it will be, it will be a good buy for anyone. What is wrong is Fiat's attitude to us, their customers. That is what we need to highlight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *I totally agree with the above & it must be very frustrating to have been affected since march :clock: & know vans were still built,sold & bought with what was presumably an avoidable defect!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> we can't just sit back and say nothing because it may effect the re-sale values of our motorhomes. There is a problem and I truely feel that this forum has been instrumental in getting Fiats' attention.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have said before & I repeat these companies have been building vehicles for over a hundred years! and *to get water ingress through poor design like this beggars belief *!
> They may have underestimated the power of the internet & hopefully now realise they can not behave this way towards their customers or we will all know about it & vote with our wallets!! and then where will *they* be ? ottytrain5:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. I think what will affect our vans residual value is the crappy scuttle design which lets in water, note they have no 'fix' for this because it will cost too much to redesign the thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Either that or they can't be bothered or they can't work out a fix!
> Which ever it turns out to be it's not very confidence inspiring :hathat3:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have on the other hand gerryd's experts saying that the water/electrics mix is 'not desirable' and that there is a chance it may cause problems in the future with injector removal. Whether it will or not is a moot point cos we simply do not know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> :microwave: Water ! Electrics ! Hush your tongue girl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FACT....they have manufactured a cover to protect the electrics etc from the water, surely superfluous if not problematic
> FACT.....they have doled these out to the dealers to cover up rusting in new vans at the NEC, surely superfluous, but not if you want to sell vans!!
> FACT... their announcements are made promising action...then nothing!!
> FACT....no one has had a permanent 100% fix despite some of us, notably grizzly, having been at them since March!!
> 
> Basically the van is a good un with err technical difficulties and seriously bad customer service and for that alone Fiat/Peugeot should be ashamed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You & I were definitely separated at birth! Either that or you have my house bugged :director:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Winding members up.....tricky one I have no wish to alienate ANY members from making a comment pos or neg on scuttlegate and appreciate if you are not involved it can get possibly get tiresome. Again I would ask these members to bear with us til resolution which there surely will be, after all it's not our fault it has dragged on for so long.
> In conclusion apologies if you find this topic boring/tiresome/irritating/annoying/intrusive/desperate or quite frankly rubbish But hopefully most people have respect for what we are doing and actually wish us well for a mutual resolution.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> :smilecolros: Positive & Negative contributions are all good, ones that force their opinions & *tell* us what to do ( & deflect the topic) are a problem!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe we should move the whole topic to the members bar and we can discuss til our hearts content without it appearing on front pages and keep a thread for updates only, that way we will not occupy the threads with discussion but little news.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sounds sensible but what about newbies :newb: they could miss so much!
> Far better *I think if the mods have a sticky* reminding *all members* to check for *existing threads before starting a new one*,
> something I have learned not to do  after my inexperience had got the better of me!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As one of those who felt that the whole site was being taken over at one point by endless postings, let me say that I don't have a problem with the campaign to get Fiat to honour their responsibilities. However, a lot of postings have simply re-iterated the same information ad nauseam, which seems rather pointless.
> 
> Fiat seem to be living up to their reputation i.e "Fix It Again Tomorrow", with vans going backwards and forwards from dealer to customer to Fiat garage - a common enough occurrence over the last 15 years - which is why those of us who have had Sevel vans before, now know NOT to buy from them again.
> 
> I have no doubt that when it goes, it is indeed a splendid machine - but the bottom line is that it is[/U] flawed, and with the publicity that this thread has generated, there will be a lot of people who won't be buying them when they come on the market secondhand in a year or two. That is bound to affect resale values.
> 
> I agree with Grizzly that now Fiat have actually had to come out and admit there is a problem, people should actually give them a period of a month to get things sorted. After that, I think it would be fair game to start savaging them again.
> 
> I can well understand the frustration and feelings of powerlessness when confronting an organisation like Fiat - but you've actually made them take notice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Some of the above points I agree with & some I don't but have left them in entirety so as not to quote "out of context"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am a new member to this site i only found it by mistake i was looking for the water ingress problem on google and it came up with the petition and then a thread back to this site i was really pleased to see that i am not the only person in the country with this problem , and have been following the topic with interest , i am now a fully paid up member so that i can add my comments to this topic as well , all i am going to say is that i have read a lot of the other topics whilst searching through this site i have no interest in them so i would not bother to follow them so i can not see why this water ingress problem is offending other members if you are not interested why follow it ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bravo exactly the sort of :sign2: person we need to hear from !!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They have been admitting the problem for weeks now, but still there is little or no information from Fiat on what they're actually going to do about it. They have known for months that there is a problem, and I suspect they hoped it would go away.
> 
> Their official statement was a nonsense, and made it sound like they were moving heaven and earth to appease a few who were complaining.
> 
> Even Fiat dealers aren't sure what the problem is, or what they're supposed to do about it. The situation from Peugeot sounds even worse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly the reason why the petition was set to run for a year http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot
> They can run (or make empty promises :roll: ) but they can't hide :homework:
> 
> *And last but not least !!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SwiftGroup wrote:
> I had a meeting at the NEC with no less than six Fiat personnell at a very senior level.I put forward the concerns of the members on the forum and they do understand now the difference between a motorhome user and a 'white van man'.I have a further meeting at the factory next week to discuus the way forward reference the issue of shedding water from the screen. Peter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *:hello1: I think all members will agree Swift/Peter has put in a lot of effort on this one & I have joined the fanclub.
> But are Fiat doing right by him ? *​
> The last quote (below) sums up the biggest issues so brilliantly that I just had to highlight & underline, rather than "put it in a box"
> In my opinion although it is directed at Peter (in so much as he has been a go between) it can equally be said to Fiat,Peugeot,the dealers & converters selling these vans and anyone who thinks we are "banging on" about nothing!
> 
> *This is so disappointing, Peter. "No less that six senior personnel ...", and you're having a meeting next week to discuss the way forward? I can't believe that. Why should you be having a meeting to discuss the way forward? Surely the way forward is to fix the problem?
> 
> It's not rocket science. Anyone with any mechanical savvy can see the problem, and could work out a solution in about half a day - someone on here has already done that. Why can't Fiat do this? Why are they still having meetings about this? Why aren't Fiat coming on here and telling us directly what they're doing? If they can't give you direct answers, what chance have we got?
> 
> <sigh>
> 
> I have 3 questions for you to ask at the meeting.
> 
> "Please tell me, so I can tell the MotorhomeFacts members:
> a) exactly what you're doing to fix this problem
> b) what recalls and cautions and issues are currently in motion for these vans
> c) when exactly is all this going to happen?"
> 
> Part of the problem is that we're hearing different stories from different people and different garages. It's clear (at least to me, anyway) that the information is not being disseminated properly. If (as you imply) you have the ear of top Fiat personnel, why are they not giving you precise information on this issue?*
> 
> *I have taken a few hours (& probably an entire page) to do this epic & have one other thought.....I bet the person who noticed there were too few lifeboats on the Titanic wished he'd raised his concern's loudly!
> Thats not to say we have a catastrophe on our hands, but for those of us who have spent £30,000 to £50,000 (or more) it is of genuine concern *
> 
> Finally I have some other pressing matters to attend to which Is why I wanted to gauge opinion & try to clarify some of the issues.
> I thank everyone for their input & support & hope Fiat & Peugeot & all guilty parties learn from these discussions that..
> ..WE ARE NOT MUSHROOMS DON'T TREAT US LIKE WE ARE :whdat:
> 
> *Just in case I haven't mentioned it before ** the petition is sticking around until next September.
> So Fiat,Peugeot & all connected trades take heed.....upset customers are not good for business *
Click to expand...

I have printed everything off and I will present your questions on Monday.They will only be here for three hours so Kath will speak to the Customer Care director and I will spend time with the engineers discussing what we all want going forward to stop any further water issues.Peter.


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

I received a telephone call just after 8 this morning - it was Northern Commercials stating that the parts were in and they could do the work as and when.

Just got back and the engine bay does not look any different to how it looked yesterday. I was expecting a plastic cover of some sort.

Russell

Rita - take a bucket with you when you go to collect your motorhome. Fill it (the bucket) with water and throw it (the water) and the windscreen and bonnet area. If it (the motorhome) is full of water, walk away and leave it there.


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Just got back and the engine bay does not look any different to how it looked yesterday. I was expecting a plastic cover of some sort.


Pssst - Russell?



geraldandannie said:


> ... these 'covers' that were present on the vans at the NEC ... I wonder whether they were purely a cosmetic device, used to cover up any signs of rusting already present on the show vehicles, and that in actual fact, they don't form part of the 'fix'?


It may of course be that the dealers are still waiting for them to be delivered - we've had reports of the job not being completed because all the parts weren't in.

P.S. Peter (Swift) - thanks for responding. I think those questions, if they can be answered (truthfully) by Fiat, may well reduce the temperature of this debate. Full information, even if it is unwelcome, is always always always better than no or even part information.

Gerald


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Fiat*



geraldandannie said:


> Rapide561 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just got back and the engine bay does not look any different to how it looked yesterday. I was expecting a plastic cover of some sort.
> 
> 
> 
> Pssst - Russell?
> 
> 
> 
> geraldandannie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... these 'covers' that were present on the vans at the NEC ... I wonder whether they were purely a cosmetic device, used to cover up any signs of rusting already present on the show vehicles, and that in actual fact, they don't form part of the 'fix'?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It may of course be that the dealers are still waiting for them to be delivered - we've had reports of the job not being completed because all the parts weren't in.
> 
> P.S. Peter (Swift) - thanks for responding. I think those questions, if they can be answered (truthfully) by Fiat, may well reduce the temperature of this debate. Full information, even if it is unwelcome, is always always always better than no or even part information.
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

I will do my best.Just a note for Russell the covers for the 3litre will not be ready until mid November.Peter.


----------



## DC4JC

Peter,

is that a given re: the 3 ltr covers?

I've been told, as have some others that there wont be one for the 3 ltr?

This seems odd, if they were on the Fiat MHs at the NEC!

thanks

Dave


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> I received a telephone call just after 8 this morning - it was Northern Commercials stating that the parts were in and they could do the work as and when.
> 
> Just got back and the engine bay does not look any different to how it looked yesterday. I was expecting a plastic cover of some sort.
> 
> Russell
> 
> Rita - take a bucket with you when you go to collect your motorhome. Fill it (the bucket) with water and throw it (the water) and the windscreen and bonnet area. If it (the motorhome) is full of water, walk away and leave it there.


Has anyone had the call from Fiat and than had the mods done to the leaking trim and joint and had the cover fitted?Peter.


----------



## ICDSUN

Hi

Looking at the covers used at the NEC I suspect they were hand modified units from another vehicle possibly Iveco, mainly because they were not fully across the whole cam cover etc, just my guess.

I was told by the Fiat guy it would be a little while before the new parts were available, more likely to be end Nov 2.3 & Dec for 3.0, meanwhile they were prepared to do the other parts of the work ie: cleaning and protection, my dealer has booked mine in for this work when all the required listed parts are available.

My own temporary fix is keeping most of the water away so I am prepared to wait until they can do the complete fix, my dealer is aware that if this does not cure it the vehicle will be rejected as per my letter to them on collection day.

Chris


----------



## SwiftGroup

*covers*



DC4JC said:


> Peter,
> 
> is that a given re: the 3 ltr covers?
> 
> I've been told, as have some others that there wont be one for the 3 ltr?
> 
> This seems odd, if they were on the Fiat MHs at the NEC!
> 
> thanks
> 
> Dave


They were prototype covers for the show only.I was told that covers are in the process of being made.I have emailed Fiat to get this clarified and I will ask again on Monday.We have modified a vehicle at the factory which has tubes connected to the two small holes near the wipers and one large hole on the NSide to take water away if the vehicle is leaning to the left.I intend to show Fiat this on Monday and I will get some photos for you to see on Monday.Peter.


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

Now I am a bit cross as I was under the impression the covers etc were ready.

Out of interest, my engine is clearly an IVECO. Do the 2.0 and 2.3 engines have FIAT or IVECO on them?

I think I will be getting my covers in Italy at this rate.

Russell


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> Now I am a bit cross as I was under the impression the covers etc were ready.
> 
> Out of interest, my engine is clearly an IVECO. Do the 2.0 and 2.3 engines have FIAT or IVECO on them?
> 
> I think I will be getting my covers in Italy at this rate.
> 
> Russell


I dont know Russell.I am assuming that the covers for the other engines were in existance wheras the 3litre had to be designed and than made.Peter.


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Well, I have stuck a note in my diary for 12th November to speak to Fiat and Piccadilly Motors.

Hopefully it will not be necessary to travel to a lorry dealer for the cover fitting. I doubt very much the work requires the use of a ramp to lift the vehicle.

Russell


----------



## zulurita

I will have a bucket with me Russell :wink: on Friday.

My Fiat engine had Iveco marked on it when I looked.

I will be annoyed if covers do not come as I have been assured that the fix will be done on my vehicle by the time I collect it!! Even the Fiat guy at the NEC told me covers were available for the motorhomes.

How do I reject the vehicle on the day if I have already arranged insurance cover for the new mh? Guess I would have to make a quick call to the insurance company. Also the vehicle will be registered in my name by then!!! I had hoped to avoid all this as I have been assured the work will be done! Looks like I will have to phone up next week and check.

I have already organised the alarm fiting at Van Bitz.........this is a real pain  

I get more stressed and anxious by the minute.


----------



## Grizzly

zulurita said:


> How do I reject the vehicle on the day if I have already arranged insurance cover for the new mh?
> I get more stressed and anxious by the minute.


Rita...Are you _sure_ you want to reject the vehicle at this stage ?

From all I have heard the covers are not ready but the fix _is_ coming. It is perfectly possible to protect your engine with gaffer tape until this happens. Not pretty but it works perfectly.

Rather than getting stresed and anxious why don't you take your vehicle, as it stands, next week and make sure that the windscreen is sealed up with tape. This will keep it in good order until the permanent solution is in place and the tape can be removed.

We've done nearly 10,000 miles in ours since March including 2 trips round Europe. The windscreen has been sealed up with grey gaffer tape and has not leaked. The engine has given no trouble at all. Oddly enough no-one has even noticed the gaffer tape !

G


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi Chris

My windscreen is sealed but water pours in through the bonnet. There is a cooling vent thing and the water goes down there and drops on the cam. This is the case with mine. So the windscreen is only part of the problem.

As for rejecting on the day, that is the best day to do it - you haven't paid for it! Easy, get in your "old" van and drive home. If more motorhomers and van buyers did that......where would Fiat be.

Russell


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

The water comes in through these vents. Under the bonnet is a plastic/rubber thing to take the water away - but it is definitely not water tight.

Do the 2.0 and 2.3 engines have a vented bonnet?

Russell


----------



## rowley

Russell, all 3 models will have the same air intake. That duct is another area that needs a drain pipe similar to the one that Peter has fitted to the scuttle.

Rita, if I was in your shoes I would not reject the motorhome just for the leak. You will be thrilled when you get behind the steering wheel.


----------



## Glengyle

Peter, when you speak to Fiat how about suggesting use of self tapping screws (as suggested by another forum member) when sealing the central join of the scuttle to make it more permanent? There may be a tendancy for the seal to be pulled apart by movement/expansion of the two scuttle parts. I had the central scuttle join sealed by my local Fiat dealer but it is not 100%, water still seeps through. I'm sure I've read of other forum members who have experienced the same problems post fix.


----------



## carolgavin

*Could someone explain something to me as I am confused???*

Could some one explain to me cos as said previously I am a mechanophobe and do not do spacial awareness  Just how exactly *can* they fix a fault in (allegedly) the design without taking it back to basics??? 
How can they make a split scuttle into a not split scuttle??? Their chuck/spray/fire/daub/wipe (sorry dunno how you apply silicone!!) silicone fix does not work for the majority of vans be it the movement/vibration I have no clue so if *that* doesn't do it what will?? 
I have also noticed that for some reason they never mention the scuttle only the rust and frankly whilst the rust/oxidation or whatever you want to call it bothers me,it doesn't half bother me more that the cause is seemingly the only thing not being addressed whilst the effect has had more than it's fair share of airtime. What does appear to be the case is that in all the talk of repair one thing seems clear the water will still be getting in, but the vital bits are being covered up, or is this not the case?
Have I missed something?? Or has the water finally got me? I cannot make head nor tail of this and it's huuuuuuuuuuuuuurting. Help me please.


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi, Carol

Going back to basics - the water is getting into the engine bay, and sitting on the injectors (and making them rusty), and getting on the fuse box and possibly other areas. When you look at the how the water flows from the windscreen, it's fairly easy to see how water is getting in there. So, what Fiat need to do is to stop the water getting into the engine bay (and they also need to apply retrospective treatment for damage already done).

Principally, water comes in between the screen and the rubber seal; between the two halves of the scuttle; and through a strange hole moulded into the scuttle which sits above the fusebox. It also gets in between the scuttle and the bonnet (if the level rises sufficiently in the scuttle because it can't drain away), and also (I think) between the bonnet and the wings,

Looking at the scuttle - basically, it needs redesigning. If you didn't want to do that, you could seal the joint and the hole (as I have done), and also you could make new drain holes with tubes to take the water away (as others have done).

Having done that, you throw buckets of water at the windscreen, and watch what happens. Then you play a hose at the windscreen, bonnet, wings, and all over the front for 10 minutes, and check for water ingress.

If, after all that, there's no water in the engine bay, there's a chance the problem has been fixed. The only real test is to drive for a few hours in driving rain, and then let the van sit for a few more hours in torrential rain. 

But, for most people, the problem is made very evident with half a cupful of water dribbled carefully onto the windscreen. This is the ridiculous thing. We're not talking about driving through a tropical typhoon, where maybe you could understand extreme weather conditions having an adverse effect. Half a cupful. Carefully dribbled. It's laughable.

What Fiat do to make the rusty injectors look a bit more pretty is up to them, and of very minor importance. The plastic cover over the injectors is also of no real significance. I would suspect that it won't stop water getting into the injector cavity - it'll stop direct splashing, but then it will probably dribble over the top and down the sides, to sit around the injectors, but unseen.

I used to design machine tools, where we used water-based coolant being sprayed at high pressure through several nozzles onto grinding wheels rotating at 3000-7000 rpm. This problem is nowhere near as extreme, and is actually quite simple to fix. The problem Fiat designers have is that they don't want to come up with a solution that requires Fiat garages to spend hours on the solution. The real solution is to redesign the scuttle, but I would think this would cost a lot and involve considerable lead time.

We wait. And I wonder if they actually know what they're going to do?

Gerald


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

The work has been done to my van and it looks as rusty as ever. I am concocting a lovely letter to Fiat and requesting all affected parts be replaced.

Russell


----------



## zulurita

Grizzly said:


> zulurita said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do I reject the vehicle on the day if I have already arranged insurance cover for the new mh?
> I get more stressed and anxious by the minute.
> 
> 
> 
> Rita...Are you _sure_ you want to reject the vehicle at this stage ?
> 
> From all I have heard the covers are not ready but the fix _is_ coming. It is perfectly possible to protect your engine with gaffer tape until this happens. Not pretty but it works perfectly.
> 
> Rather than getting stresed and anxious why don't you take your vehicle, as it stands, next week and make sure that the windscreen is sealed up with tape. This will keep it in good order until the permanent solution is in place and the tape can be removed.
> 
> We've done nearly 10,000 miles in ours since March including 2 trips round Europe. The windscreen has been sealed up with grey gaffer tape and has not leaked. The engine has given no trouble at all. Oddly enough no-one has even noticed the gaffer tape !
> 
> G
Click to expand...

No Grizzly I do not *want* to reject the vehicle. However the windscreen scuttle appears to be only part of the problem. The air duct is another issue and water getting in around the headlamps, I know rain does get in but it is the effective drainage that is the issue I think.

Russell has had work done on his vehicle and the injectors etc appears to be as bad as ever!

I will buy some gaffer tape (BUT I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO ON A NEW £45,000 VEHICLE) and I have already bought the long line windscreen covers from Taylormade. 
What I am concerned with is: Once I have accepted the motorhome Fiat and dealers probably won't try too hard to rectify things.


----------



## Tucano

An update on my problem. I have to take the van back to Richard Baldwins in Halifax next week for other problems relating to the habitation side and whilst it is down there they are taking the van to Northern Commercials to address the water ingress problem, and other things. 
There are five recall notices relevant to my vehicle and solving the water ingress is not one of them because they don't think there is a problem.
However, they are fitting an engine cover after cleaning the injectors and also a starter motor cover to prevent further damage from water ingress !!
I will let them do the work because it is part way forward, remove the cover myself to check the injectors have been cleaned, and then continue the fight to resolve the water problem.
I was one of the first to buy a van on the new chassis and I will be one of the first to put it up for sale so I will let you know how the problem affects re-sale value.
My wifes illness is making it extremely unlikely we will be using the van again after the new year.
I will advertise it on this forum first, it will be interesting to see the reaction !
Regards,
Norman


----------



## carolgavin

geraldandannie said:


> Hi, Carol
> 
> Looking at the scuttle - basically, it needs redesigning. If you didn't want to do that, you could seal the joint and the hole (as I have done), and also you could make new drain holes with tubes to take the water away (as others have done).
> 
> The problem Fiat designers have is that they don't want to come up with a solution that requires Fiat garages to spend hours on the solution. The real solution is to redesign the scuttle, but I would think this would cost a lot and involve considerable lead time.
> 
> We wait. And I wonder if they actually know what they're going to do?
> 
> Gerald


Thanks Gerald, for your excellent explanation. I do not think they want the expense of a complete redesign for the vehicles already in use or waiting for conversion. So as you say it leaves them with a problem. The more I mull over Fiats recent statements the more I think as you have said above that they actually have no real clue in what direction they are going and the 'announcements' such as they were are stalling for time. However these statements are better than the complete wall of silence Peugeot currently engage in :roll: :roll: 
We are at something of a crossroad in our legal fight in which we may have to go down a route which to us is not exactly what we want. Waiting on confirmation of any legal precedents. 
The law however is clear they must repair, if that is the route you wish to go down, to your satisfaction, failure to do so may give you another avenue to pursue. 
Those about to take delivery, sorry but I would not like to be in your shoes as I would feel caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Accept it knowing the faults exist and that the final solution is somewhat elusive and a long time coming and you are deemed to have accepted it warts and all and your recourse is somewhat limited.
Do not accept it and have no van.................difficult one!
The solution is there I feel it's just that Fiat/Peugeot want to do it on the cheap.


----------



## Grizzly

zulurita said:


> .
> Russell has had work done on his vehicle and the injectors etc appears to be as bad as ever!
> 
> What I am concerned with is: Once I have accepted the motorhome Fiat and dealers probably won't try too hard to rectify things.


Hi Rita...we've had the work done too - last Monday. I think the brown effect that Russell mentions is actually the colour of the varnish they have out on. It's a 2 stage process and takes about 4 hours. Certainly the spots of rust have gone and the brown is uniform all over so the only other possibility is that it has gone rusty all over in the few hours- I don't think so.

It's not up to your MH dealer to do the final fix. My understanding from the Fiat garage and from Fiat is that Fiat will call us, we will take it to our Fiat dealer and whatever mods need doing will be done. I seriously believe that now the only reason we are waiting is because the mod is not ready. It might be some time but I don't think there will be any deliberate delays.

We have left the gaffer tape on until the final mods are done but there now seems to be a rustproof coating on the vulnerable bits.
If you look at our photos in the album you will see that inaddition to the windscreen bottom seal we also sealed the joint at the centre sometime in March.

G


----------



## zulurita

Carol,

It is a dilemma and one we certainly wish we were not in. When we went to see our motorhome we were assured all would be sorted and that the fix was available. We said we would have the motorhome on that basis.

However it is sounding as though this may not be the case BUT I will not know until we go to collect it on Friday. 

Having asked for a bike rack and bits to be done, I do not know now what I can do?

Also I keep hearing that vehicle batteries are going flat overnight even after a drive of 100 miles.


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

Just taken this pic and the camera never lies.....

Russell

I will say however, that water is not settled on top of the cam after a night of fairly heavy rain, so the "treatment" must cause the water to go somewhere.


----------



## Grizzly

zulurita said:


> Also I keep hearing that vehicle batteries are going flat overnight even after a drive of 100 miles.


An odd one this. We have that problem and know of a few others but not the expected rush of people. It does not happen overnight but in our case takes about a week or two of the van not being run. We have no power source where we store it.

Have you read the thread that my OH (Safariboy) put up on the subject ?

It is a right pain and there is -wait for it - no fix from Fiat that we know of though they are said to be working on one to reduced the current. Swift will fit a switch that will turn off all devices running but that means the alarm does not work. Anyone stealing your vehicle will have to turn on the switch in order to drive it away and the alarm will come on. Fine so far but no use when you are worried - as we are- about theft from the vehicle.

What we are doing at the moment is to take off the lead to the battery. Fiat have thoughtfully made that easy to do !!!

It seems that the wonderful CANBUS system is designed for cars and vans that run everyday. MHs do not and they sit there with little computer coded messages being sent round the works and gradually flattening the battery. The radio must be totally switched off and disconnected too as this takes current all the time - a penalty of having the 20 minute switch off over-ridden. There is a Swift fix for this one too.

G


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

The radio on the "old" Ducato could be left on for hours - and I never had a flat battery.

You can of course disconect the vehicle battery - but this means lifting the cab carpets etc.

Russell


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> Just taken this pic and the camera never lies.....
> 
> Russell
> 
> I will say however, that water is not settled on top of the cam after a night of fairly heavy rain, so the "treatment" must cause the water to go somewhere.


Russell...ours is covered all over, fairly extensively, with a brown varnish stuff. The rust was cleaned off first and then this was done. I assume the water runs off but it certainly should not rust under the varnish.

Have you gaffer taped the windscreen and the seal in the centre to stop water getting in in the first place ? This really is effective even in the remarkable rainstorms we had while in Europe.

G


----------



## 96299

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> Just taken this pic and the camera never lies.....
> 
> Russell
> 
> I will say however, that water is not settled on top of the cam after a night of fairly heavy rain, so the "treatment" must cause the water to go somewhere.


Russell...There no way that engine has had a clean up in a million years.Who do they think they are kidding.I`m not being funny,but that engine looks ten years old mate. :roll:

steve


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> The radio on the "old" Ducato could be left on for hours - and I never had a flat battery.
> 
> You can of course disconect the vehicle battery - but this means lifting the cab carpets etc.
> 
> Russell


The radio on the old Ducato presumably was not also a DVD player, MP3 player, and connected to the satnav etc. We suspect that this radio is also wired up with the amplifier running all the time.

We also have to take the carpets up in the front but it is the work of moments. It is not however a very elegant fix and not one that we foresee having to use for the life of the vehicle so we are actively pursuing a permanent satisfactory solution. Swift are being very helpful in this and their electrician is on the case.

G


----------



## zulurita

Grizzly said:


> zulurita said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not up to your MH dealer to do the final fix. My understanding from the Fiat garage and from Fiat is that Fiat will call us, we will take it to our Fiat dealer and whatever mods need doing will be done.
> 
> G
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Grizzly
> 
> Our dealer is also a Fiat authorised service centre so they will be doing the work.
> 
> Well I will continue to put my faith in them and pray hard that it is justified. If it all goes pear shaped I will probably have a heart attack from all the stress and worry!!
> 
> My current mh has a solar panel and battery master and all has been ok so lets hope it will be the same with the new mh vehicle battery.
Click to expand...


----------



## Autoquest

Does any one have to hand the part No for the new Fiat engine cover?

With regards to the ingress around the headlights - I used some of that thick adhesive foam draught excluder and fixed it to the edges of the bonnet - Looks good and problem solved.

Someone mentioned returning rust after a clean? It is vital that once cleaned the engine is treated with WD40 on a regular basis or it will return very quickly to what sadly is, its natural state.


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

Well I am not an expert in electronics or rust, but I am going give Fiat some pan handle on Monday!

Chris - the windscreen - I do not think I have ever had a leak there. Prior to picking up the van, I remember Swift stating it had been "done". It looks to have to have selaed with some black plastercine type stuff. On closer inspection however, the two pieces of plastic that meet in the lower middle area of the windscreen look to have come apart, so no doubt water will get in there too.

Yes, I think Fiat need to telephone call from me on Monday.

Russell


----------



## Grizzly

zulurita said:


> If it all goes pear shaped I will probably have a heart attack from all the stress and worry!!
> .


Rita....Don't do that ! ( Well, it would be a good bargaining tool with Fiat "Look what has happened..." but I'm not that selfish.  )

Think of all the good times you will have in this van. The battery flattening problem is no problem when we are away. If we are on hook up then we simply set the engine battery to charge at the touch of a button on the control panel, if we are not on hook up then we are usually going to move within a day or two.

The water ingrees too is not a problem once you have gaffer-taped it. Not pretty but it keeps out the water and there will be a permanent fix along soon I am absolutely certain.

Meanwhile you have a brilliant new van that rides and drives like a dream, is as environmentally friendly as you are going to get in a great block of matter and is light on fuel too.

Breathe deeply and keep taking the tablets !

G


----------



## carolgavin

*The Caravan Channel*

Just watched The Caravan Channel episode which Gav recorded on Wed as it was reports from the NEC. At the end he talked about the ingress problem and how Fiat were not taking it seriously at first but seem to be doing now. The advice given was to contact their dealer as there should be something in place. I think it may be on the website if anyone is interested in what he said Caravan Channel


----------



## zulurita

Thanks Grizzly for keeping my pecker up


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: The Caravan Channel*

Hello again, everyone - back from a family wedding in the Midlands 



carolgavin said:


> At the end he talked about the ingress problem and how Fiat were not taking it seriously at first but seem to be doing now. The advice given was to contact their dealer as there should be something in place.


Hmm - this seems to be the message more and more. "Yes, we now realise there is a problem, and concerned owners should contact their dealers, and arrangements will be made to ..." yada yada yada.

This is yet more bluster and filibustering from the mighty Fiat. From what Peter Smith has said ("meeting next week to decide on best way forward") and evidence from real owners visiting said dealers that the fix isn't really in existence yet. Russell has stated that his van has had work done, and yet there is still a gap between the two sections of the scuttle which, as we all know, is one of the main areas that water gets in and drops into the injector cavity.

More words, and evidence of Fiat "talking the talk", but failing to "walk the walk". It looks more and more as though we're all just being hoodwinked into waiting and waiting until they finally get their butts in gear. This 'treatment' of the injectors feels more like a job just done to go through the motions of fixing the problem. Maybe they are having a new moulding done (which is what it needs), but scared to say that's what's happening, because then they look stupid for having made such a cock-up in the first place, and scared to tell is the real fix is weeks / months away.

Back to the original point - I'm fearful that official bodies are being told the same lies - that the fix is at the dealers, and all we need to do is go along at our convenience and all will be sweetness and light. The problem is that these official bodies aren't following up, and are just accepting what Fiat say hook, line and sinker. When one of the afflicted vans goes into a Fiat dealer, and has the leaks stopped with official Fiat-supplied parts and procedures, then I'll believe it. Until then, I'm getting more and more depressed. I also wonder whether my dealer, who has been good on the communication front so far, will have the van in, do some work, and then say "oops-a-daisy, we don't seem to have all the bits at the moment, come back in a few weeks". When they ring me this week, I'll endeavour to extract from them EXACTLY what they are going to do to the van. I'm not going to be inconvenienced taking it in, only to be told I have to take it in again to have the work completed.

And so another week has gone by ....

Gerald


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: The Caravan Channel*



geraldandannie said:


> [and evidence from real owners visiting said dealers that the fix isn't really in existence yet. This 'treatment' of the injectors feels more like a job just done to go through the motions of fixing the problem.
> Gerald


Gerald...The one thing Fiat have *NOT* said is that the fix is ready and there for you if you go to the dealer.

What they are doing at the moment is cleaning off the rust and painting the area with a solution that I assume prevents further damage by water.
They have *NOT* said or implied that this is the final solution. Rather the opposite in fact as they are still talking of the final solution - whatever that might be- being some way off yet. The painting and cleaning are only a holding measure.

It would be sensible if they had sent each one of us a letter; not a difficult thing to do, and told us exactly what was going on. Perhaps this is something that Peter could explain to them on Monday - ?

I'm not, heaven forfend ! trying to excuse Fiat but I don't think it is fair to knock them for something that they have not said either.

G


----------



## GerryD

The engine battery issue is not one that is peculira to the Sevel van end certainly not the X250. Any vehicle that has such devices as remote central locking and rolling code immobilisers will suffer a flat battery within a few weeks on non use. And of course if you have an alarm or tracker you will increase the drain on the battery. So in essence we are causing the issue by wanting all of these gadgets. This also happens with the Transit and the Renaults. 
The solution is to fit a Battery Master between your leisure battery and the engine battery. This will ensure that any loss in the engine battery is compensated by the leisure battery. For less than £50 it is the best investment that you can make.


----------



## carolgavin

GerryD said:


> The engine battery issue is not one that is peculira to the Sevel van end certainly not the X250. Any vehicle that has such devices as remote central locking and rolling code immobilisers will suffer a flat battery within a few weeks on non use. And of course if you have an alarm or tracker you will increase the drain on the battery. So in essence we are causing the issue by wanting all of these gadgets. This also happens with the Transit and the Renaults.
> The solution is to fit a Battery Master between your leisure battery and the engine battery. This will ensure that any loss in the engine battery is compensated by the leisure battery. For less than £50 it is the best investment that you can make.


Gerry petal i realise you have been in foreign places so may be suffering from jet lag, but shouldn't this be in the battery flattening thread which is
HERE?????? Don't think the water is affecting our batterys ........................yet!! :lol: :lol:


----------



## GerryD

Carol,
Yes you are right, but as the battery flattening had been discussed in this thread by Zulurita and Grizzly on the previous page, I thought it appropriate to answer here.
Regards
Gerry


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: The Caravan Channel*



Grizzly said:


> I'm not, heaven forfend ! trying to excuse Fiat but I don't think it is fair to knock them for something that they have not said either.


Hi, G

My point is that the _implication_ is that the dealer has a solution - which seems to be the official line. We've had suggestions of a recall, although that seems to be the wrong terminology. We've had the covers, which are around in small numbers, it seems. We've had all sorts of vague and vacuous statements, but no timetable of when it's going to be done, nor even of how it's going to be done.

As always, the main criticism of Fiat is in its customer support and communication. Maybe they're overwhelmed by the number of vans they have to deal with, but I would hope with our non-regular use and personal ownership (rather than the day-to-day use of a delivery van, owned by a company), we would get some sort of priority.

Gerald


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: The Caravan Channel*



geraldandannie said:


> As always, the main criticism of Fiat is in its customer support and communication. Maybe they're overwhelmed by the number of vans they have to deal with, but I would hope with our non-regular use and personal ownership (rather than the day-to-day use of a delivery van, owned by a company), we would get some sort of priority.
> Gerald


Hear hear ! Apparently Fiat monitor this site. It amazes me that, given the bad publicity they have had on it that they have not done something positive to tell us what is going on.

If any Fiat executive is reading this then *PLEASE *write to all of us and tell us what is going on. You have our chassis numbers and addresses I understand so it should not be too difficult. I don't live all that far from Slough; would you like me to come along and stuff the envelopes and stick on the stamps ?

If I though it would help I'll even write the addresses on the envelopes....

G


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: The Caravan Channel*



Grizzly said:


> Apparently Fiat monitor this site. It amazes me that, given the bad publicity they have had on it that they have not done something positive to tell us what is going on.


I can't believe that they would monitor this site, and not comment on the HUGE thread that's running here. Yet more communicative ineptitude :roll:

Even if they were to register, pay a whole £10, and then PM one of us (rather than engage in discussion on open forums). It would be worth so much more to them, I'm sure (hint, hint)

Gerald


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: The Caravan Channel*



geraldandannie said:


> Grizzly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently Fiat monitor this site. It amazes me that, given the bad publicity they have had on it that they have not done something positive to tell us what is going on.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't believe that they would monitor this site, and not comment on the HUGE thread that's running here. Yet more communicative ineptitude :roll:
> 
> Even if they were to register, pay a whole £10, and then PM one of us (rather than engage in discussion on open forums). It would be worth so much more to them, I'm sure (hint, hint)
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

Gerald I am not surprised they do not comment, it isn't affecting their business. No one has stopped buying their vans, so why should they. They have as yet lost nothing, how many on here have complained, 30-40 maybe up to 50 hardly a dent in the 250,000 they can produce (sorry do not know how many of the 250,000 vans they can produce are from each marque)
Their big market in white van man, is saying nowt so neither are thay!!! Until the converters stop using them, they cannot lose. 
Sorry in pessimistic mode again...................just ignore me!!


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: The Caravan Channel*



carolgavin said:


> Gerald I am not surprised they do not comment, it isn't affecting their business. No one has stopped buying their vans, so why should they.


Pessimism? Or realism?

But ...

Only a fool (or a Fiat boss) would ignore the strong feelings that are being expressed on here. Yes, as individuals, we can do little. But by showing our dissatisfaction, and bringing this design flaw to the attention of people other than those actually and currently inflicted, we can effect a change.

Just imagine you're a motorhome manufacturer (say, Speedy Motorcaravans). You look at what's been going on, and the struggles people (even other motorhome manufacturers) are having getting a straight answer out of Fiat. Also imagine you're looking at the very poor design which allows this fault, and creates all this bad feeling.

So now, as Speedy Motorcaravans, you have a brilliant new model you're working on. It's a flexible and practical design; it's cost-effective, both for you as a manufacturer, and for the public you're hoping will buy it; it's environmentally-friendly; it ticks a huge amount of boxes for both first-timers and experienced motorhomers. But you need a base vehicle. Do you go for a design from Fiat, who have shown themselves to be inept at both design and customer (OEM and end user) liaison; or do you go for Ford or Mercedes or Renault, who all have similarly impressive motorhome base vehicles?

I think back to the British motorcycle industry. They produced out-of-date designs, from an era when that was all there was. They leaked oil, they vibrated, they were slow, and they required their owners to treat the vehicles as a hobby. Then along came the Japanese, with user-friendly designs, powerful engines with innovative features, smooth rides and a bike you could jump on, press a button, and you were away.

The British said "this will never catch on ... we know what our customers want".

Only they didn't. And over a period of time, paying customers said "we're not prepared to put up with this any more ... there is an alternative."

Don't underestimate the power of the motorhome end user. When there comes a point at which we say "no thanks, Mister Speedy, we love your motorhomes, but we don't trust the base vehicle, and we're going to buy something similar that's based on something else." The wise Mr. Speedy then starts to think, and begins to wonder whether he should be using a base vehicle other than Fiat.

Despite all the fancy words, the high-powered meetings, the supposedly reassuring but nebulous PR releases, where are we? I still have a lovely motorhome with rusty injectors and a amateurish front end which lets in water. I still see no definitive statement from Fiat (or Peugeot, for that matter) about the problem and how it's going to be fixed, and when.

Gerald


----------



## Zebedee

Morning all

I collected my longline Taylor Made on Friday (since we were nearby) and Mr Taylor made an interesting comment.

Apparently he was approached at the NEC show by "_four blokes wearing suits who seemed official_". He didn't know who they were, but they looked closely at his covers and mentioned the Fiat water problem . . . at which point he became a lot more interested.

There was not much discussion as they were not very communicative, but Mr Taylor understood from them that the scuttle on the dedicated motorhome chassis is not the same as the one on the "White Van" model.

I've never checked a white van, but somebody must have. Is this just another red herring, or is there really a difference????

Zeb


----------



## Telbell

> No one has stopped buying their vans, so why should they.


I have. We were going to buy a new one but won't now until "scuttlegate" (etc) is sorted. I may be only one but......."large trees from little acorns...."


----------



## Grizzly

Zebedee said:


> Apparently he was approached at the NEC show by "_four blokes wearing suits who seemed official_". He didn't know who they were, but they looked closely at his covers and mentioned the Fiat water problem .
> Zeb


I knew it ! I knew it ! I knew it !!

EVERY time we buy something the price drops within days or they start giving them away. We bought our long-line Taylormade cover only last week and already it looks like the fabled Fiat solution might be to give us all a free one.  

I've said it before; if I tell people I've bought something then they should wait before they follow suit.

( Excellent service from Taylormade as usual by the way; cover came pretty well by return )

G


----------



## SwiftGroup

Zebedee said:


> Morning all
> 
> I collected my longline Taylor Made on Friday (since we were nearby) and Mr Taylor made an interesting comment.
> 
> Apparently he was approached at the NEC show by "_four blokes wearing suits who seemed official_". He didn't know who they were, but they looked closely at his covers and mentioned the Fiat water problem . . . at which point he became a lot more interested.
> 
> There was not much discussion as they were not very communicative, but Mr Taylor understood from them that the scuttle on the dedicated motorhome chassis is not the same as the one on the "White Van" model.
> 
> I've never checked a white van, but somebody must have. Is this just another red herring, or is there really a difference????
> 
> Zeb


No difference!Peter.


----------



## SwiftGroup

Grizzly said:


> Zebedee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently he was approached at the NEC show by "_four blokes wearing suits who seemed official_". He didn't know who they were, but they looked closely at his covers and mentioned the Fiat water problem .
> Zeb
> 
> 
> 
> I knew it ! I knew it ! I knew it !!
> 
> EVERY time we buy something the price drops within days or they start giving them away. We bought our long-line Taylormade cover only last week and already it looks like the fabled Fiat solution might be to give us all a free one.
> 
> I've said it before; if I tell people I've bought something then they should wait before they follow suit.
> 
> ( Excellent service from Taylormade as usual by the way; cover came pretty well by return )
> 
> G
Click to expand...

An hour to go to the meeting!has anyone had a positive call from Fiat and had the resealing done to their satisfaction?Peter.


----------



## Grizzly

SwiftGroup said:


> An hour to go to the meeting!has anyone had a positive call from Fiat and had the resealing done to their satisfaction?Peter.


No, we had flimsy clips put on back in July but they were useless. This was a Fiat early attempt to fix. The clips were replaced after the first lot failed but the clips used at the second attempt fell off as well.

Please will you ask the Fiat executives to write to us all -even via the forum if necessary- and explain what they are proposing to do and what sort of time scale they envisage ?

Thanks and have a good meeting !

G


----------



## DC4JC

Peter,

although Fiat requsted holding my MH for an extra day after the recall work, not all the components arrived so they were unable to do.

From my point of view I'd like clarification that as part of the mod Fiat will be fitting a cover to the 3 ltr version please.

Or are they that confident of resolving it that covers will not be required?

Thanks

Dave


----------



## SwiftGroup

DC4JC said:


> Peter,
> 
> although Fiat requsted holding my MH for an extra day after the recall work, not all the components arrived so they were unable to do.
> 
> From my point of view I'd like clarification that as part of the mod Fiat will be fitting a cover to the 3 ltr version please.
> 
> Or are they that confident of resolving it that covers will not be required?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dave


Dave,did they seal the joint etc?I know for a fact that there will be a cover for the 3litre.Peter


----------



## 107708

All I get is Manana manana!

So when it to be, before Christmas?


----------



## geraldandannie

SwiftGroup said:


> An hour to go to the meeting!has anyone had a positive call from Fiat and had the resealing done to their satisfaction?Peter.


Hi, Peter

Good luck, and fingers crossed.

I think what we'd like is a list of modifications that are going to be done (for this problem - forget the other 'recalls' or 'cautions' for the moment :wink: ), and when those modifications can be / will be done. A simple list would be great, e.g.

1. Sealing scuttle with flexible sealant - available now
2. Cleaning injectors and spraying with gunk - available now
3. Attaching injector plastic cover - avaiilable end Oct 2.3ltr engines, available mid November 3.0ltr engines
etc etc etc

Simple and specific, please, if that's possible.

As I said - good luck.

Gerald


----------



## DC4JC

Peter,

in my case no, they have not sealed the scuttle. All they did was clean up the injectors and apply a 'compound'.

Dave


----------



## SwiftGroup

geraldandannie said:


> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> An hour to go to the meeting!has anyone had a positive call from Fiat and had the resealing done to their satisfaction?Peter.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, Peter
> 
> Good luck, and fingers crossed.
> 
> I think what we'd like is a list of modifications that are going to be done (for this problem - forget the other 'recalls' or 'cautions' for the moment :wink: ), and when those modifications can be / will be done. A simple list would be great, e.g.
> 
> 1. Sealing scuttle with flexible sealant - available now
> 2. Cleaning injectors and spraying with gunk - available now
> 3. Attaching injector plastic cover - avaiilable end Oct 2.3ltr engines, available mid November 3.0ltr engines
> etc etc etc
> 
> Simple and specific, please, if that's possible.
> 
> As I said - good luck.
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

Thanks Gerald.Peter


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

RIGHT - and that is in capitals because I am annoyed.

The rubber join thing below the windscreen that was once sealed has come apart.

I have had a merry ding dong with Fiat UK who said they would look into why my rust was not removed. I have also had a long conversation with Nor Com - the service department foreman - who was reading the water bulletin as we spoke.

NorCom have apologised if "I am not happy with the work". I clearly stated it was nothing to do with not being happy, it was the fact that Fiat UK - two operatives in fact, said the rust would be removed when clearly it had n't

Anyway, on a plus side, NorCom tested the battery and replaced it as they found a fault.

Russell


----------



## Pixelpusher

Peter (Swift).....

I see much mention of the 2.3L and 3L engines. Can you put in a mention for us juniors who have the 2.2L.

Colin


----------



## Tucano

I have been told by a Fiat agent that the compound/gunk etc etc is good old Waxoyl which has been on the market for years.
Being of a wax consistency I would expect it to run off any hot items, eg, the engine cam cover. Then where are we, intend to ask that question when I take ours in for the fix.
Regards
Norman


----------



## SwiftGroup

TUCANO said:


> I have been told by a Fiat agent that the compound/gunk etc etc is good old Waxoyl which has been on the market for years.
> Being of a wax consistency I would expect it to run off any hot items, eg, the engine cam cover. Then where are we, intend to ask that question when I take ours in for the fix.
> Regards
> Norman


Yes it is deffo Waxoyl ,Peter.


----------



## SwiftGroup

geraldandannie said:


> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> An hour to go to the meeting!has anyone had a positive call from Fiat and had the resealing done to their satisfaction?Peter.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, Peter
> 
> Good luck, and fingers crossed.
> 
> I think what we'd like is a list of modifications that are going to be done (for this problem - forget the other 'recalls' or 'cautions' for the moment :wink: ), and when those modifications can be / will be done. A simple list would be great, e.g.
> 
> 1. Sealing scuttle with flexible sealant - available now
> 2. Cleaning injectors and spraying with gunk - available now
> 3. Attaching injector plastic cover - avaiilable end Oct 2.3ltr engines, available mid November 3.0ltr engines
> etc etc etc
> 
> Simple and specific, please, if that's possible.
> 
> As I said - good luck.
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

Righto here goes,there is to be a Vosa recall starting in 4 weeks time therefore every vehicle will be effected.The recall is to do with the steering rack and wiper motors combined with this all vehicles will than have the joint sealed and the front rubber trim sealed,engine cleaned and sealed with waxoyl.I am assured all parts are now instock and process sheets have been issued today to Dealers re the resealing.The 3litre covers will be available mid November and we will be sent the first few.The delay has been that the cover is not a simple fit and requires the re routing of an oil pipe and therefore the associated parts.All contact should be through the camping car customer service BUT if you have any problems you can PM me or Kath and we will expedite on your behalf Swift customer or not.All production from 16th November will have the sealing done at the factory and all product in the pipeline will be reworked.They again asked me to apologise on their behalf.Any questions?Peter.


----------



## geraldandannie

SwiftGroup said:


> Any questions?Peter.


Hi, Peter

Sounds pretty clear to me. Shame it's taken so long, blah blah.

One question though - if we're contacted by our (Fiat) dealer before the VOSA recall, will the steering rack / wiper motor 'jobs' be done? Or should we tell our dealers (if they try to bring us in before then) to wait for the recall?

Thanks for relaying this to us.

Gerald


----------



## Pixelpusher

Peter....

You mention in your summary the 3L engine. What is happening in respect of the other engines re: covers?

Colin


----------



## SwiftGroup

geraldandannie said:


> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any questions?Peter.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, Peter
> 
> Sounds pretty clear to me. Shame it's taken so long, blah blah.
> 
> One question though - if we're contacted by our (Fiat) dealer before the VOSA recall, will the steering rack / wiper motor 'jobs' be done? Or should we tell our dealers (if they try to bring us in before then) to wait for the recall?
> 
> Thanks for relaying this to us.
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

Gerald,I dont know I tried to link everything together to stop all the to'ing and fro'ing. What I do know is that if anyone is not contacted in the first round of letters they can still contact Fiat and they will arrange for all the jobs to be done sooner rather than later.Peter.


----------



## Zebedee

Now that things seem to be happening at last, and we "have it in writing" as it were, just a very special thankyou to Peter of the Swift Group and Catherine 1happy for their tireless efforts on everyone's behalf.  

If ever we meet there's a pint of Creme de Menthe waiting at the bar for each of you.

Zeb

(Edit) Strewth, what am I saying! *Must have water on the brain!!!!!* Make that a hefty shot of single malt ---- unless you actually LIKE Creme de Menthe.


----------



## SwiftGroup

Pixelpusher said:


> Peter....
> 
> You mention in your summary the 3L engine. What is happening in respect of the other engines re: covers?
> 
> Colin


Colin,they have those covers and in fact we have them coming through our factory now.Peter


----------



## 1happy

*VOSA Recall !!!!*



SwiftGroup said:


> Righto here goes,there is to be a Vosa recall starting in 4 weeks time therefore every vehicle will be effected.The recall is to do with the steering rack and wiper motors combined with this all vehicles will than have the joint sealed and the front rubber trim sealed,engine cleaned and sealed with waxoyl.I am assured all parts are now instock and process sheets have been issued today to Dealers re the resealing.The 3litre covers will be available mid November and we will be sent the first few.The delay has been that the cover is not a simple fit and requires the re routing of an oil pipe and therefore the associated parts.All contact should be through the camping car customer service BUT if you have any problems you can PM me or Kath and we will expedite on your behalf Swift customer or not.All production from 16th November will have the sealing done at the factory and all product in the pipeline will be reworked.They again asked me to apologise on their behalf.Any questions?Peter.


Hi Peter.
As ever you have been most helpful & I am sure many will join me in thanking you 8)

Now my worst fears have been realised....I did wonder if the "steering issues" discussed in previous posts were safety related :roll:

This is now a dilemma as we had planned to go abroad for several months. :roll:

I am disgusted that Fiat (& Peugeot) have been keeping so quiet !
I will NEVER buy another Fiat...because of this failure to communicate with existing customers.

I will consider a Swift (& again am probably not alone in this!)

But not on a Fiat......Thanks again
Regards Catherine


----------



## Grizzly

Peter, many, many thanks to all at Swift from both of us. 

You have no idea what a relief it is to get something sensible out of Fiat after so long banging our heads against a brick wall. At this rate I won't need to buy another folder to keep all the correspondence in.  

Grizzly and Safariboy


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: VOSA Recall !!!!*



1happy said:


> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> Righto here goes,there is to be a Vosa recall starting in 4 weeks time therefore every vehicle will be effected.The recall is to do with the steering rack and wiper motors combined with this all vehicles will than have the joint sealed and the front rubber trim sealed,engine cleaned and sealed with waxoyl.I am assured all parts are now instock and process sheets have been issued today to Dealers re the resealing.The 3litre covers will be available mid November and we will be sent the first few.The delay has been that the cover is not a simple fit and requires the re routing of an oil pipe and therefore the associated parts.All contact should be through the camping car customer service BUT if you have any problems you can PM me or Kath and we will expedite on your behalf Swift customer or not.All production from 16th November will have the sealing done at the factory and all product in the pipeline will be reworked.They again asked me to apologise on their behalf.Any questions?Peter.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Peter.
> As ever you have been most helpful & I am sure many will join me in thanking you 8)
> 
> Now my worst fears have been realised....I did wonder if the "steering issues" discussed in previous posts were safety related :roll:
> 
> This is now a dilemma as we had planned to go abroad for several months. :roll:
> 
> I am disgusted that Fiat (& Peugeot) have been keeping so quiet !
> I will NEVER buy another Fiat...because of this failure to communicate with existing customers.
> 
> I will consider a Swift (& again am probably not alone in this!)
> 
> But not on a Fiat......Thanks again
> Regards Catherine
Click to expand...

Catherine,send a PM with you contact details we will contact Fiat and they will be able to advise you re the steering rack.The delay is down to VOSA agreeing the wording of the document so it maybe a quick fix.Peter


----------



## Zebedee

Peter

Nobody has asked yet, but how does this affect Peugeot owners? I would presume a similar VOSA recall, but could you confirm please, assuming you know of course.

Thanks

Zeb


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

The steering rack thing - mine was dealt with last week and it needed some lubricant or other.

As for the water/windscreen/scuttle call it what you will, after last weeks performance and a total mileage covered of approximately 190 miles, I personally feel no further forward.

So for now, I shall sit on the fence and await developments.

Russell


----------



## zulurita

Thanks 1 Happy (Catherine) and Peter, Kath (Swift), and others for helping in this matter and keeping the pressure on Fiat/Peugeot.

It seems we are indeed getting somewhere at last, sigh of relief. Does the safety recall also include the juddering when in reverse going up a slight incline?

I feel a bit easier now as I am off on Wed first to Van Bitz re removing my pager (for alarm) which is to be fitted in new mh with new alarm. Then to dealers Thurs to have satellite and solar panels removed which are to be fitted to new mh. And Finally Friday Handover day!

Will the new mh have the cover or won't it :wink: I hope so.


----------



## SwiftGroup

zulurita said:


> Thanks 1 Happy (Catherine) and Peter, Kath (Swift), and others for helping in this matter and keeping the pressure on Fiat/Peugeot.
> 
> It seems we are indeed getting somewhere at last, sigh of relief. Does the safety recall also include the juddering when in reverse going up a slight incline?
> 
> I feel a bit easier now as I am off on Wed first to Van Bitz re removing my pager (for alarm) which is to be fitted in new mh with new alarm. Then to dealers Thurs to have satellite and Solar Panels removed which are to be fitted to new mh. And Finally Friday Handover day!
> 
> Will the new mh have the cover or won't it :wink: I hope so.


Not if its the 3litre and unlikely on the others as it is a bit early.I suggest you ring your dealer and give him a nudge!Peter.


----------



## SwiftGroup

Zebedee said:


> Peter
> 
> Nobody has asked yet, but how does this affect Peugeot owners? I would presume a similar VOSA recall, but could you confirm please, assuming you know of course.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Zeb


No I dont know but I assume it will? I will ask.Peter.


----------



## carol

I am really pleased that Swift (Peter and Kath) have taken this up and sorted it out, but as I am as yet still sitting on the sidelines, I am wondering how this is going to affect the new motorhomes that some of us have on order.

OK, mine is a new automatic on the 3ltr (160) engine....and I am really wondering if ordering this base vehicle has been the wisest thing we have done. In our case, we haven't actually paid the deposit yet, another 5 weeks until that is done..... what would you advise?

Do you think all these things will have been sorted out - but then what bothers me, is what else is around the corner....

Very worrying.... Peter it isn't a Swift... it will be a Rapido....and LHD.

Do you know if LHD vehicles are also affected in this way with this water problem, I assume the steering etc., will be the same...

Carol


----------



## SwiftGroup

carol said:


> I am really pleased that Swift (Peter and Kath) have taken this up and sorted it out, but as I am as yet still sitting on the sidelines, I am wondering how this is going to affect the new motorhomes that some of us have on order.
> 
> OK, mine is a new automatic on the 3ltr (160) engine....and I am really wondering if ordering this base vehicle has been the wisest thing we have done. In our case, we haven't actually paid the deposit yet, another 5 weeks until that is done..... what would you advise?
> 
> Do you think all these things will have been sorted out - but then what bothers me, is what else is around the corner....
> 
> Very worrying.... Peter it isn't a Swift... it will be a Rapido....and LHD.
> 
> Do you know if LHD vehicles are also affected in this way with this water problem, I assume the steering etc., will be the same...
> 
> Carol


No difference Russell has LHD and he has the same issues.I am pretty certain that all the issues we have talked about will have been dealt with as I said the covers for the 3litres will be on production mid November so should be ok.When you complete your deal make sure the cover is part of your condition of sale.Peter.


----------



## carol

Peter - thank you - and I will take a good look when we do get it....

I shall keep watching these Fiat threads and wondering what else I need to check for.... It is a long way back to Germany to get them fixed.... 

Carol


----------



## smick

*Fiat Water Ingress and Recalls*

Having been reading all this with some interest, and would echo the comments of others re Peter & Swifts pro-active stance on the issue.

HOWEVER - what would have happened if a major manufacturer had not stepped in and persuaded Fiat they had to do something ? And bear in mind that Peugeot have not yet promised anything.

My guess is that Fiat would have left everyone in the manure, because each of us is only one customer.

It grieves me that there are lots of really good designs out there, but I'm not going to bother looking at them if they are based on a Sevel - because the backup you will get is nil - unless the motorhome manufacturer is fighting your corner as well.

Smick


----------



## 96299

swiftgroup and 1happy.... :wav: Thanks for all your tireless efforts in the scuttlegate affair  Lets just hope now that we get a satisfactory job done by the dealers. :roll: 

steve


----------



## GerryD

Congratulations and very well done to Peter and all others who have collectively brought this matter to the point that has been reached today.
My own personal opinion of the matter has not changed, however I do genuinely feel for those who have had to endure the trauma of the past year. I hope that everybody will be able to put their concerns behind them once the remedial work has been undertaken and that faith can be restored in what is an excellent vehicle.
Hopefully time will be the great healer and we shall all live to see the vehicle for its qualities. 
This has taken some time, but coming from experience of the hoops that must be jumped through before a manufacturer can admit to an issue and then the legal wrangles of going public, I can fully understand the process. The department that I work for is currently undergoing a recall process for a unit with 6000 customers where we are aware of a potentially dangerous product, however we are unable to go public until we can satisfy Trading Standards that we have followed all legal processes.
My best wishes to everybody and I hope that at some point we may meet and I shall buy a pint for anybody that I have inadvertantly offended.
Regards,
Gerry


----------



## 96299

*Re: Fiat Water Ingress and Recalls*



smick said:


> Having been reading all this with some interest, and would echo the comments of others re Peter & Swifts pro-active stance on the issue.
> 
> HOWEVER - what would have happened if a major manufacturer had not stepped in and persuaded Fiat they had to do something ? And bear in mind that Peugeot have not yet promised anything.
> 
> My guess is that Fiat would have left everyone in the manure, because each of us is only one customer.
> 
> It grieves me that there are lots of really good designs out there, but I'm not going to bother looking at them if they are based on a Sevel - because the backup you will get is nil - unless the motorhome manufacturer is fighting your corner as well.
> 
> Smick


Yep..That sounds about right Smick,and I wouldn`t blame you.

steve


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Fiat Water Ingress and Recalls*



smick said:


> Having been reading all this with some interest, and would echo the comments of others re Peter & Swifts pro-active stance on the issue.
> 
> HOWEVER - what would have happened if a major manufacturer had not stepped in and persuaded Fiat they had to do something ? And bear in mind that Peugeot have not yet promised anything.
> 
> My guess is that Fiat would have left everyone in the manure, because each of us is only one customer.
> 
> It grieves me that there are lots of really good designs out there, but I'm not going to bother looking at them if they are based on a Sevel - because the backup you will get is nil - unless the motorhome manufacturer is fighting your corner as well.
> 
> Smick


Sort of true.Would I have known if it wasnt for the forum? No I wouldnt so I would have been as bad as everyone else!I believe what has been shown and what we at Swift are showing is a new age in customer relations which has been made possible by the internet so I believe we can move Fiat with us and we can feed back our findings in a constructive way.Peter.


----------



## Zebedee

GerryD said:


> My best wishes to everybody and I hope that at some point we may meet and I shall buy a pint for anybody that I have inadvertantly offended.
> Regards,
> Gerry


You've upset me at least 10 times Gerry.   

Where shall we meet?

Zeb

P.S. Make that 5 times. I couldn't manage 10 pints and stay upright.  

P.P.S. (This is a joke, in case I inadvertently offend you. :roll: )


----------



## geraldandannie

GerryD said:


> My best wishes to everybody and I hope that at some point we may meet and I shall buy a pint for anybody that I have inadvertantly offended.


That's very good of you, Gerry. Unfortunately, you didn't offend me, so it looks like I'll be buying my own pint 

Gerald


----------



## rrusty

That is very good news, my very sincere thanks to all of the members who campaigned on everyones behalf. My MH is booked to go in tomorrow for a temp fix should I wait or still proceed.

rrusty


----------



## geraldandannie

rrusty said:


> My MH is booked to go in tomorrow for a temp fix should I wait or still proceed.


It's your call, rrusty. It depends on how inconvenient the problem is, and how convenient or otherwise it is to take it to the Fiat dealer.

In my case, the van has long line Taylormade screens on it at the moment, and it is quite inconvenient for me to get to the dealer, so I will be waiting until the recall or the dealer knows exactly what's going on.

Gerald


----------



## SwiftGroup

rrusty said:


> That is very good news, my very sincere thanks to all of the members who campaigned on everyones behalf. My MH is booked to go in tomorrow for a temp fix should I wait or still proceed.
> 
> rrusty


Depends how much time you have?If you can wait I would wait and be sure everything can be done in one hit.Peter.


----------



## johnc

*Does this include Peugeot.*



SwiftGroup said:


> geraldandannie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> An hour to go to the meeting!has anyone had a positive call from Fiat and had the resealing done to their satisfaction?Peter.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, Peter
> 
> Good luck, and fingers crossed.
> 
> I think what we'd like is a list of modifications that are going to be done (for this problem - forget the other 'recalls' or 'cautions' for the moment :wink: ), and when those modifications can be / will be done. A simple list would be great, e.g.
> 
> 1. Sealing scuttle with flexible sealant - available now
> 2. Cleaning injectors and spraying with gunk - available now
> 3. Attaching injector plastic cover - avaiilable end Oct 2.3ltr engines, available mid November 3.0ltr engines
> etc etc etc
> 
> Simple and specific, please, if that's possible.
> 
> As I said - good luck.
> 
> Gerald
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Righto here goes,there is to be a Vosa recall starting in 4 weeks time therefore every vehicle will be effected.The recall is to do with the steering rack and wiper motors combined with this all vehicles will than have the joint sealed and the front rubber trim sealed,engine cleaned and sealed with waxoyl.I am assured all parts are now instock and process sheets have been issued today to Dealers re the resealing.The 3litre covers will be available mid November and we will be sent the first few.The delay has been that the cover is not a simple fit and requires the re routing of an oil pipe and therefore the associated parts.All contact should be through the camping car customer service BUT if you have any problems you can PM me or Kath and we will expedite on your behalf Swift customer or not.All production from 16th November will have the sealing done at the factory and all product in the pipeline will be reworked.They again asked me to apologise on their behalf.Any questions?Peter.
Click to expand...

Peter,

Sounds like a breakthrough and I can only add my congratulations for a job well done. However, being one of the underdogs in this epic i.e (peugeot owner) and with ZERO support form either the motorhome builder or the dealer, I am concerned that as Peugeot and Fiat do not talk to each other (according to Peugeot's Customer service department) then we may never get the recall notice.

Regards

John C or "Rusty" as I am now known to my friends.


----------



## DC4JC

Peter / Kath, well done, thanks for the prompt feedback and for taking issue with Fiat. I knew I did the right thing in going for Swift!

1happy in particular, thanks for maintaining this thread and keeping the faith, despite I suspect coming to the end of your tether!

I know we are not quite there yet, but there is definitely a large ***** at the the end of this seemingly never ending tunnel!

Dave


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Does this include Peugeot.*



johnc said:


> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> geraldandannie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> An hour to go to the meeting!has anyone had a positive call from Fiat and had the resealing done to their satisfaction?Peter.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, Peter
> 
> Good luck, and fingers crossed.
> 
> I think what we'd like is a list of modifications that are going to be done (for this problem - forget the other 'recalls' or 'cautions' for the moment :wink: ), and when those modifications can be / will be done. A simple list would be great, e.g.
> 
> 1. Sealing scuttle with flexible sealant - available now
> 2. Cleaning injectors and spraying with gunk - available now
> 3. Attaching injector plastic cover - avaiilable end Oct 2.3ltr engines, available mid November 3.0ltr engines
> etc etc etc
> 
> Simple and specific, please, if that's possible.
> 
> As I said - good luck.
> 
> Gerald
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Righto here goes,there is to be a Vosa recall starting in 4 weeks time therefore every vehicle will be effected.The recall is to do with the steering rack and wiper motors combined with this all vehicles will than have the joint sealed and the front rubber trim sealed,engine cleaned and sealed with waxoyl.I am assured all parts are now instock and process sheets have been issued today to Dealers re the resealing.The 3litre covers will be available mid November and we will be sent the first few.The delay has been that the cover is not a simple fit and requires the re routing of an oil pipe and therefore the associated parts.All contact should be through the camping car customer service BUT if you have any problems you can PM me or Kath and we will expedite on your behalf Swift customer or not.All production from 16th November will have the sealing done at the factory and all product in the pipeline will be reworked.They again asked me to apologise on their behalf.Any questions?Peter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Peter,
> 
> Sounds like a breakthrough and I can only add my congratulations for a job well done. However, being one of the underdogs in this epic i.e (peugeot owner) and with ZERO support form either the motorhome builder or the dealer, I am concerned that as Peugeot and Fiat do not talk to each other (according to Peugeot's Customer service department) then we may never get the recall notice.
> 
> Regards
> 
> John C or "Rusty" as I am now known to my friends.
Click to expand...

As another of the forgotten few I can echo Johnc's comments above heartily. Peugeot are a law unto themselves as are their so called customer service managers. 
I welcome any positive announcement and acknowledgement of the issues involved and although a safety recall is kinda scary it would be a lot more scary were we left in this position with nothing!!!

I as others have done before me would firstly like to thank Catherine 1happy for her tireless campaign and highlighting of this issue. I am sure scuttlegate would not have been as well publicised if not for her.

Secondly to Peter et al @ Swift for their persistance in showing Fiat exactly what the problems are and giving us a voice a big well done and thanks!!

Thirdly to all who have contributed to this thread in any way thank you for your considered postings your determination and your sense of humour when all seemed bleak. It is great to have so many people to bounce ideas off and the fact that we were all in this together meant none of us were alone!!!

Maybe we should organise a 'scuttlegate' rally?????


----------



## Polo

*Scuttlegate*

Here here!!! Let's wait and see if Peugeot really get on board with this one!? I wait with bated breath!!!!!


----------



## GerryD

Peter,
I would like to take this opportunity to express my views on your comment a couple of weeks ago when you said that Swift may in time reconsider their choice of base vehicle.
Obviously, my current MH is based on the Fiat X250 130 Multijet and despite the water issue it is an excellent vehicle to drive. I also note that all current Swifts are based on the X250 and Autocruise on the Peugeot. Therefore, for you to change would involve massive investment in re-tooling. When I changed to my current vehicle I wanted to keep with Swift following a 5 year loving relationship with my 2002 Suntor 590RS (I even forgave Swift when it transpired that due to a design issue I needed a new roof). However there was not a model in the Swift range that had a layout to suit us.
Getting down to the nitty gritty. What do you change to? The Mercedes is too expensive, and has had more recalls than Fiat. The Ford is good, but then Ford have a vested interest in Sevel, after all Ford own Iveco who supply engines to Sevel. There is the Vauxhall (sorry Renault), but they had a warranty issue when first introduced as Renault considered all RHD motorhomes to be grey imports and therefore refuted all warranty claims. And anyone used to the deep windscreen of the Fiat/Peugeot will not like the shallow windscreen in the Luton built jobbie. That leaves LDV, an excellent base vehicle that cannot shake off it's Sherpa reputation, but then the LDV has a Ford powerplant developed by Iveco alongside the Multijet.
It would appear that you have a dilemma, so surely it is better the devil you know.
Regards,
Gerry


----------



## Zebedee

I would like to congratulate a good percentage of the contributors to this thread.

Not a singly smutty comment about rusty injectors. 8O 8O Quite restores one's faith in human nature.  

Zeb

P.S. Glad it appears to be all over bar the shouting, but why am I still just a teensy little bit uneasy? :? Could it be because mine's a Peugeot?


----------



## carolgavin

Zebedee said:


> P.S. Glad it appears to be all over bar the shouting, but why am I still just a teensy little bit uneasy? :? Could it be because mine's a Peugeot?


Eeeeek you too thought it was only little me


----------



## Polo

*Scuttlegate*

That goes for me too! I'm awaiting a 'nod' from our Peugeot dealership! Sometime never maybe! Still we wait eh?!

I'd like to say a big thank you to everyone who has kept this thread running and for all the 'pressure' items as well!


----------



## Zebedee

*Re: Scuttlegate*



Polo said:


> That goes for me too! I'm awaiting a 'nod' from our Peugeot dealership! Sometime never maybe! Still we wait eh?!


You've twigged the brand new problem for us Peugeot owners Polo.

Under the new circumstances we have little option but to wait. We can't really whinge much more when Peter and Catherine have had such (_fingers crossed_) success on the broader front.

Zeb


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*

Hi to All of the below & other Peugeot owners.
Just a quick contribution as I have not had time to read all the posts and digest the information fully :idea: 
To Peugeot "Scuttlegate" owners & fellow S.W.E.A.R club members I do wish to reaffirm the thread was called *"NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!"* because I felt we are all in this together and if we cant show solidarity the battle may be won but the war is lost :!: 
So lets please keep each other informed or there is a danger that someone somewhere will breathe a big sigh of relief and we are back to being mushroom's :roll:



Zebedee said:


> Glad it appears to be all over bar the shouting, but why am I still just a teensy little bit uneasy? Could it be because mine's a Peugeot?





carolgavin said:


> Eeeeek you too thought it was only little me





Polo said:


> That goes for me too! I'm awaiting a 'nod' from our Peugeot dealership! Sometime never maybe! Still we wait eh?!





Zebedee said:


> You've twigged the brand new problem for us Peugeot owners Polo. Under the new circumstances we have little option but to wait. We can't really whinge much more when Peter and Catherine have had such (_fingers crossed_) success on the broader front.
> Zeb


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*



1happy said:


> To Peugeot "Scuttlegate" owners & fellow S.W.E.A.R club members I do wish to reaffirm the thread was called *"NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!"* because I felt we are all in this together and if we cant show solidarity the battle may be won but the war is lost :!:
> So lets please keep each other informed or there is a danger that someone somewhere will breath a big sigh of relief and we are back to being mushroom's :roll:


Absolutely, Catherine. I for one won't be leaving the thread.

Gerald


----------



## Zebedee

*Next phase for Peugeot owners?*



Zebedee said:


> You've twigged the brand new problem for us Peugeot owners Polo.
> 
> Under the new circumstances we have little option but to wait. We can't really whinge much more when Peter and Catherine have had such (_fingers crossed_) success on the broader front.
> Zeb


We can't whinge much about a problem which has now been recognised and addressed, but that doesn't mean we sit back and do nothing!

Might I ask the first Fiat owner to receive the official VOSA recall notice if he/she would be kind enough to post an accurate and complete copy of it here please. (Personal details excluded of course.)

Then at least if we poor Peugeot owners continue to be ignored we would have a powerful argument to throw at anyone from Peugeot UK, right down to a recalcitrant local dealer.

Hope Peter (Swift Group) is correct and we won't need it, but I'd prefer to start powering up the disrupters just in case the bloody Klingons don't come to heel.

Regards

Zeb


----------



## SwiftGroup

GerryD said:


> Peter,
> I would like to take this opportunity to express my views on your comment a couple of weeks ago when you said that Swift may in time reconsider their choice of base vehicle.
> Obviously, my current MH is based on the Fiat X250 130 Multijet and despite the water issue it is an excellent vehicle to drive. I also note that all current Swifts are based on the X250 and Autocruise on the Peugeot. Therefore, for you to change would involve massive investment in re-tooling. When I changed to my current vehicle I wanted to keep with Swift following a 5 year loving relationship with my 2002 Suntor 590RS (I even forgave Swift when it transpired that due to a design issue I needed a new roof). However there was not a model in the Swift range that had a layout to suit us.
> Getting down to the nitty gritty. What do you change to? The Mercedes is too expensive, and has had more recalls than Fiat. The Ford is good, but then Ford have a vested interest in Sevel, after all Ford own Iveco who supply engines to Sevel. There is the Vauxhall (sorry Renault), but they had a warranty issue when first introduced as Renault considered all RHD motorhomes to be grey imports and therefore refuted all warranty claims. And anyone used to the deep windscreen of the Fiat/Peugeot will not like the shallow windscreen in the Luton built jobbie. That leaves LDV, an excellent base vehicle that cannot shake off it's Sherpa reputation, but then the LDV has a Ford powerplant developed by Iveco alongside the Multijet.
> It would appear that you have a dilemma, so surely it is better the devil you know.
> Regards,
> Gerry


Absolutety Gerry,I am confident that Fiat will deal with all the issues as yesterdays meeting had the Sevel plant Quality director,the Camping Car Director , the main man in charge of the x250 project! and the Fiat uk Technical Director!Next week Kath will be visited by Fiat customer care people to set up a Fast Track system re Swift/Fiat issues.I know its a bit late BUT they are reacting now and I know they will continue to do so.This will also have a spin off for Peugeot as well.Peter.


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Next phase for Peugeot owners?*



Zebedee said:


> Zebedee said:
> 
> 
> 
> You've twigged the brand new problem for us Peugeot owners Polo.
> 
> Under the new circumstances we have little option but to wait. We can't really whinge much more when Peter and Catherine have had such (_fingers crossed_) success on the broader front.
> Zeb
> 
> 
> 
> We can't whinge much about a problem which has now (apparently) been recognised and addressed, but that doesn't mean we sit back and do nothing!
> 
> Might I ask the first Fiat owner to receive the official VOSA recall notice if he/she would be kind enough to post an accurate and complete copy of it here please. (Personal details excluded of course.)
> 
> Then at least if we poor Peugeot owners continue to be ignored we would have a powerful argument to throw at anyone from Peugeot UK, right down to a recalcitrant local dealer.
> 
> Hope Peter (Swift Group) is correct and we won't need it, but I'd prefer to start powering up the disrupters just in case the bloody Klingons don't come to heel.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Zeb
Click to expand...

I have contacted Peugeot and told them what Fiat are doing and to see if they will be doing something similar.Peter.


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Does this include Peugeot.*



johnc said:


> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> geraldandannie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> An hour to go to the meeting!has anyone had a positive call from Fiat and had the resealing done to their satisfaction?Peter.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, Peter
> 
> Good luck, and fingers crossed.
> 
> I think what we'd like is a list of modifications that are going to be done (for this problem - forget the other 'recalls' or 'cautions' for the moment :wink: ), and when those modifications can be / will be done. A simple list would be great, e.g.
> 
> 1. Sealing scuttle with flexible sealant - available now
> 2. Cleaning injectors and spraying with gunk - available now
> 3. Attaching injector plastic cover - avaiilable end Oct 2.3ltr engines, available mid November 3.0ltr engines
> etc etc etc
> 
> Simple and specific, please, if that's possible.
> 
> As I said - good luck.
> 
> Gerald
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Righto here goes,there is to be a Vosa recall starting in 4 weeks time therefore every vehicle will be effected.The recall is to do with the steering rack and wiper motors combined with this all vehicles will than have the joint sealed and the front rubber trim sealed,engine cleaned and sealed with waxoyl.I am assured all parts are now instock and process sheets have been issued today to Dealers re the resealing.The 3litre covers will be available mid November and we will be sent the first few.The delay has been that the cover is not a simple fit and requires the re routing of an oil pipe and therefore the associated parts.All contact should be through the camping car customer service BUT if you have any problems you can PM me or Kath and we will expedite on your behalf Swift customer or not.All production from 16th November will have the sealing done at the factory and all product in the pipeline will be reworked.They again asked me to apologise on their behalf.Any questions?Peter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Peter,
> 
> Sounds like a breakthrough and I can only add my congratulations for a job well done. However, being one of the underdogs in this epic i.e (peugeot owner) and with ZERO support form either the motorhome builder or the dealer, I am concerned that as Peugeot and Fiat do not talk to each other (according to Peugeot's Customer service department) then we may never get the recall notice.
> 
> Regards
> 
> John C or "Rusty" as I am now known to my friends.
Click to expand...

I have emailed peugeot to ask them what they intend to do.Peter.


----------



## Zebedee

Thanks once again Peter. Coming from you Messrs Peugeot may well react a little more decisively than if we quiz them as individuals. We haven't had much success so far. 8O 

Zeb


----------



## statenisland

*X250 Fiat water ingress*

Good morning,
Do not get your hopes up.
Have just wasted a morning at Fiat dealer, Mangoletsi of Knutsford, and achieved very little. The Service Manager says he knows nothing about the engine cover or details of the sealing process. Is this another case of Fiat dreaming like last time when they said owners should contact a dealer on 1st October.
They inspected the steering but said I would need to rebook an appointment as the components had to be stripped down and packed with grease. They did recall 5247 injection flash update and recall 5251 steering pipe clip.
I bought a motorhome to use and enjoy but seem to spend more time resolving problems and I am losing interest fast.
Can anybody recommend another Fiat commercial dealer convenient for Stockport as Mangoletsi do not seem geared up for motorhomes- they have not got the headroom to lift a motorhome but are listed in Fiat's handbook as a Specialist Dealer.
Why do Fiat make these statements when they know they cannot back them up. They just seem to say what they think people want to hear and we all fall for it.
Brian


----------



## elly

*water ingress fiat a class*

hello

Ive just ordered a new A class dethleffs on a fiat x 250 chassis with the new fiat engine \ Having read the forums am concerned and wondered if the Water ingress problem effects all body types.

Ta Paul


----------



## sennen523

Hi statenisland,
Brian, I am in the same "boat" as you. I live in North Wales and as I bought my motorhome from Spinneys, MANGOLETSI of Knutsford is my Fiat dealer. As you say, Mangoletsi cannot handle motorhomes so they send Fiat technicians to Spinneys.
I have checked STONEACRES (FIAT) of Wrexham who have told me they CAN handle my Motorhome.
The last time I checked with Stoneacre they knew nothing about the water ingress problem!!!

Regards
Al Sennen523.


----------



## statenisland

*X250 Fiat water ingress*

Good afternoon Al Sennen 523,
I have just rung Caledonia of Oldham and they have no knowledge of the engine cover.
If Fiat were serious about their claim to have a solution available for their dealers they would make a public statement on this forum and elsewhere.
One can only assume they have not got it sorted or they would want to shout about it.
Brian


----------



## sennen523

*X2/50 WATER INGRESS.*

Brian,
You are quite right, FIAT ARE NOT INTERESTED in the problem and the FIAT dealers are not aware of it.
I feel sorry for Fiat X2/50 owners who don't know about this. Through this forum-- we are.
FIAT UK are failing us miserably. At the moment I don't know what to do about this design fault on my £45k motorhome!!!!!

Al.
Sennen523.


----------



## ICDSUN

*Re: water ingress fiat a class*



elly said:


> hello
> 
> Ive just ordered a new A class dethleffs on a fiat x 250 chassis with the new fiat engine \ Having read the forums am concerned and wondered if the Water ingress problem effects all body types.
> 
> Ta Paul


Paul

the water issue is not on the A class, the other recalls etc will be relevant if collection is near

Chris


----------



## geraldandannie

The information that came from Fiat via Peter Smith of Swift only appeared on here yesterday afternoon.

That information (look at :: this post :: ) stated that process sheets were issued yesterday to the dealers. Whether that information has been posted or emailed or sent by carrier peigeon I don't know, but it's safe to assume that it will take a couple of days to filter down to the people that really need it.

By stating that the VOSA recall will be in 4 weeks, and other issues will be dealt with then, Fiat have bought some time. I only hope that they aren't going to use that time to continue to work on the problem - I'm assuming it needs that time to get everything in order to to all the jobs at once.

If Peter is reading this, is there any way we (the customer) can refer dealers to a main central point, or vice versa, so the people making these statements can be made aware of what we are experiencing? I'm thinking that iif a dealer claims to have no knowledge of Fiat-originated information, then Fiat central should be aware of this.

Again, I so wish we could deal with Fiat directly on this - even if we had an official MHF spokesperson who could collate all questions and complaints, and funnel them through to the big-wigs who are doing such a great job of making impressive-sounding statements which doesn't seem to marry up with some experiences on the ground.

Gerald


----------



## statenisland

*X250 Fiat water ingress*

Good afternoon Gerald,
As I asked in my previous post - why don't Fiat make a direct public statement on this forum and/ or elsewhere if they are serious. They have a massive Press Office
Their silence says it all. They use an intermediary, like Peter, so they cannot be challenged but it keeps everybody quiet for a time.
Brian


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi, Brian

I would like to think that they are so busy, they can't be appearing on every motorhome forum answering individual questions from individual sufferers.

However, coming onto the biggest UK forum (and the one that brought this issue to light) might not be such a bad idea, though. As I said in a post some days ago, it would end speculation and rumour.

I suspect that's more a situation that blights many parts of industry - they don't consider the internet to be a viable communication means. They probably think we're all 14 year old kids, pretending to be grown ups. This would be an opportunity to lead the way, and show that they take us seriously. Look at how the reputation of Swift has been turned round since Peter started coming on here. There must be the will behind the gesture to actually do something about the issues raised, which Peter and Swift have clearly done.

Gerald


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*



SwiftGroup said:


> Righto here goes,there is to be a Vosa recall starting in 4 weeks time therefore every vehicle will be effected.The recall is to do with the steering rack and wiper motors combined with this all vehicles will than have the joint sealed and the front rubber trim sealed,engine cleaned and sealed with waxoyl.I am assured all parts are now instock and process sheets have been issued today to Dealers re the resealing.The 3litre covers will be available mid November and we will be sent the first few.The delay has been that the cover is not a simple fit and requires the re routing of an oil pipe and therefore the associated parts.All contact should be through the camping car customer service BUT if you have any problems you can PM me or Kath and we will expedite on your behalf Swift customer or not.All production from 16th November will have the sealing done at the factory and all product in the pipeline will be reworked.They again asked me to apologise on their behalf.Any questions?Peter.


Hi All. 
I was pondering on the announcement above. 
Then a few things happened & as much as I like multi-tasking the brain goes into meltdown! :roll:

Firstly there were thanks from members to Peter/Swift & myself for contributions towards the hopefully satisfactory outcome to "scuttlegate".

I would like to say thanks for your thanks but please think of it as "the devil makes work for idle hands" & besides there are many other people who have contributed in a positive way to this issue.

So in no particular order.
*zulurita*..Who correct me if I am wrong :idea: but was the 1st to post on MHF about this "Issue"

*1st thread on this issue 2007-03-13 .. March for heavens sake!! *  
*New Fiat Ducato ? water in Engine compartment *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-25069-fiat.html

*Peter/Swift*...Dread to think where we would be without his input...possibly just a load of toothless moaning old minnies complaining & getting nowhere :roll: :roll:

*Carol*...Who kept me from going mad & is always thorough in her posts with humour as a bonus.

*Zebedee*...(The artist formerly known as....Sanatogen :lol: )..who I nominated for a medal because of his side splitting posts..but stange things happened on the thread & the opportunity for recognition of one of our most humerous members was lost. 

*Bessie560*... for the original "Water Ingress - new Fiat / Peugeot - collate all faults here" thread which focused attention on what was a problem and not moaning from people who don't know what an engine should look like! :roll:

There are a lot of other people to acknowledge & checking back through the early threads shows their input so I'm sorry I can't thank everyone. 

I would like to quote zulurita from her post back in march :roll:

*Quote One:-
I am just wondering if many people from MHF have a new Fiat Ducato cab.

I was at the dealers today when a couple had brought their mh back because rain water was getting into the engine compartment quite badly by all accounts and they have been trying to get the problem sorted out for 4 weeks now.

I can remember an early Fiat model had a similar problem with rain getting onto battery and causing problems etc and they had to drill a hole in the guttering below windscreen in one corner and put a plastic pipe in so rain water drained down there.

I went up to the sales area and looked at all the new Fiat based mh's and saw quite a few had water in the guttering that obviously couldn't drain away.

This couple also mentioned that a Fiat dealer selling the panel vans had to withdraw them from the forecourt (they were due to be sold for March 1st Reg) as they were all wet!!!

This does concern me somewhat as we have ordered a new mh for Sept and don't want to end up with a new mh giving lots of grief!!! They cost over £40000 as it is so it's not pin money we are talking about here.

I have raised my concerns at the dealers and believe Fiat will be contacted regarding the problem.

I am just wondering how widespread this problem is.

I certainly wouldn't want a new mh with this problem and would consider cancelling my order if there is a design fault on the Fiat side that can't be rectified. This poor couple were supposed to have been in Spain on holiday and had collected their new mh in January and were still trying to get the fault rectified.

Quote Two:-
Hi Rita...we've just delivered our old van to the dealer and brought up the problem you mentioned.

They have not heard of it and, in the 20 or so vans with the new cab they have prepped so far, have seen no sign of water in the engine compartment.

I guess they will be keeping an eye out for it- as shall we.

G

Quote Three:-
Thanks for that Grizzly,

At least hopefully it isn't widespread, however as it is a new Fiat base and they were in short supply I suppose there are not many around yet and being used enough or checked in wet weather.

If it had just been that one couple I would have said it might be a one off. But for them to mention a Fiat dealers in Wales removing vans (not mh) from forecourt because of being wet under bonnet I thought I would just check and see if anyone else had come across this.

Certainly my salesman phoned me to say they would send an early warning to Fiat so that they can investigate.

Smick like you I was going to wait a year or so until the new Fiat base had been tried and tested and I guess when I get my new mh it will have been about a year since they were introduced especially more so in Europe.

End of quotes  :!: 8O*

I have only just found this thread & have added to the 1st post now 

*I started by wanting to thank the orignal contributors & now find myself thinking the proof of the current pudding will definately be in the eating 8O for if just one dealer had done his job properly then ?????
7 months is one hell of a mature pudding :roll: *


----------



## Broom

Hi SENNEN 523

Just noticed you have a Cheyenne 696, we have just ordered one for delivery in March 2008, have you any other complaints about it other than the under bonnet leak
Buying through Brownhills Newark

Best Regards
Broom


----------



## SwiftGroup

geraldandannie said:


> The information that came from Fiat via Peter Smith of Swift only appeared on here yesterday afternoon.
> 
> That information (look at :: this post :: ) stated that process sheets were issued yesterday to the dealers. Whether that information has been posted or emailed or sent by carrier peigeon I don't know, but it's safe to assume that it will take a couple of days to filter down to the people that really need it.
> 
> By stating that the VOSA recall will be in 4 weeks, and other issues will be dealt with then, Fiat have bought some time. I only hope that they aren't going to use that time to continue to work on the problem - I'm assuming it needs that time to get everything in order to to all the jobs at once.
> 
> If Peter is reading this, is there any way we (the customer) can refer dealers to a main central point, or vice versa, so the people making these statements can be made aware of what we are experiencing? I'm thinking that iif a dealer claims to have no knowledge of Fiat-originated information, then Fiat central should be aware of this.
> 
> Again, I so wish we could deal with Fiat directly on this - even if we had an official MHF spokesperson who could collate all questions and complaints, and funnel them through to the big-wigs who are doing such a great job of making impressive-sounding statements which doesn't seem to marry up with some experiences on the ground.
> 
> Gerald


Gerald,I will do some digging around tomorrow but I have got to believe they will deliver ANY forum member has any problems say from tomorrow should contact Swift by PM and we will speak to Fiat.I have seen the process sheet that is to be issued so it does exist! We have agreed with Fiat a process to deal with the small holes and an additional drain hole for the N/S drainage channel so hopefully we will start on Swift production Mhomes in a couple of weeks we will also try and make it retro fitable.Peter.


----------



## 1happy

*NEW WATER PROBLEM? Hope I'm wrong! your'e not wrong!*

Hi Broom. Welcome.
Just noticed your a newbie & although you haven't had a reply yet, I am sure you will.
In the meantime if you join MHF the £10 subscription fee allows you to search threads amongst many other things which represent the best tenner you ever spent.
Regards 1happy.


----------



## zulurita

Thanks 1 happy (catherine)

Little did I realise just HOW WIDESPREAD this WATER INGRESS would be when I posted on this issue way back in March.

LITTLE DID I REALISE HOW SLOW FIAT et Al WOULD BE RESOLVING THIS ISSUE 

And of course I also find myself involved as my new motorhome has to have the fix!!!!!!

I am putting my faith in my dealers to get this issue sorted!!!! i just hope my faith is not misplaced!!!!! Well I will soon know on Friday!!


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*

Hi Rita.
I hope all goes well on Friday  
We all know how long you have waited and how patient you have been 8) 
Also I have to report that Peter has worked his magic again.
Following his phone call to me this morning I received a call from Fiat and am hopefull that my new garage should be able to do all the required work prior to our snowbird/grey nomad :roll: trip south :lol:

So many thanks Peter keep up the good work :idea:  
Regards Catherine

PS Lets hope Peugeot are now in a position to break their silence & get proactive with their customers :idea:


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*



1happy said:


> PS Lets hope Peugeot are now in a position to break their silence & get proactive with their customers :idea:


Err nope!!
good luck on Friday Rita and let us know how you get on....fingers crossed all is well!!


----------



## EdsMH

*An update*

Just catching up on threads as we were away and it seems lots has been going on so thought I should share our experiences.

Our dealer RDH did a good job on the scuttle and sealing the hole above the electrics but a dribble of water was still getting through on the centre overlap.

After trying to talk to Fiat at the NEC and finding no senior people that were available.... another mistake in customer service...I contacted my local dealer in Milton Keynes that can cope with the Argos just before we went away to get an update. Was promised a call back but did not get one. Rang again today, 8 days later, to give them a piece of my mind and the receptionist defused the situation by apologising profusely and remembering my call.

She took the details and rang me back within 10 minutes to say there were 4 recalls against my chassis. Made me laugh when she said that it was not very good for a new vehicle. She nearly fell off her chair when I told her how much it cost.

It goes in on the 19th as I am a bit busy and the recalls are:

1.Water ingress - clean and protect, reseal as necessary. Not expecting cover yet but are chasing on my behalf. 
2.Steering - check rack and grease 
3.Injection - apply new flash programme 
4.Check diff and gearbox housing as a machining error can cause bearing failure.

They were well informed about all the issues and were helpful and read out the recall summaries for each item which I have not really done justice to above. They even offered a courtesy car to use.

I'll let you know how it goes.

However, having had a few more days away in the mh last week I echo the comments on what a great chassis and drive the X250 is and I am happy with it overall. I was aware of the water issue before we bought and took precautions on day 1 so our corrosion is minimal. It was a condition of sale that it is correctly sorted to my satisfaction.

Like many others on here I think that Fiat, Peugeot and Citroen have got their customer service badly wrong here and could have dealt with it better...in fact it is hard to imagine how they could have made their customers more annoyed.

I trust Peter has got them to learn the lessons on this one and we can hope for better in the future.

Ed


----------



## geraldandannie

Thanks for that detailed update, Ed. It's sounding like the information is starting to get through to the dealers.

Gerald


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*

Hi.
Thanks EdsMH for the update.  
Could I ask that all concerned members post the results of their "fixes" as this will be very helpful.
Also hopefully extremely handy for our Peugeot members too!!! 

Circumstances dictate that I can't go for my "fixes" until the 19th of Nov.
As I understand it the garage has my recalls as:-
Steering rack
Corroding injectors
Fuel injector flash
Power s pipes

Fiat confirmed on the phone yesterday that my vehicle is in the batch for steering & wiper unit recall & I should get an engine cover
Mine is the 130 multijet/2.3 ltr

I have some other unrelated things the garage need to do!

I am hoping for clarification nearer the time as to what exactly is to be done.
If anyone can enlighten me on "power s pipes" I would be most grateful.

As per carolgavins poll "Your help needed"
HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-34977-.html
*I believe we have a right to know what is done to our vehicles!*

Thanks in anticipation of keeping the ball rolling & reaching a satisfactory outcome.
I also echo what has been said before the vehicle is a good drive, its just a shame about the poor customer service!!


----------



## sennen523

Hi Broom,
I am very pleased with my Autotrail 696G apart from the Fiat water ingress problem. I have had some minor probs but nothing serious.
I will send you a PM.

Al
Sennen523.


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*



1happy said:


> If anyone can enlighten me on "power s pipes" I would be most grateful.


I would guess it's power steering pipes, Catherine.

Gerald


----------



## 104869

*Fiat Official Recall Re -- Water Ingress*

First a big thank you to all members that have brought this to the attention of other members

Fiat have recalled the motor homes with the above problems.

I would suggest booking in to your local dealers ASAP as there are a lot of people that this will effect.
The fix codes are as follows

1 RECALL NUMBER 5221 CORRODING TO INJECTORS

2 RECALL NU 5247 FUEL INJECTOR FLASH

3 RECALL NU 5251 POWER STEERING PIPE

There are other recalls including re mapping ECU THIS IS DUE TO THE ECU Thinking that there is a third fan on the engine and flashing warning lights as described by some members.

The fix for the water ingress is as follows

Install seals to scuttle these are rubber 
Install sealant to scuttle panel
Enlarge drain hole to end of scuttle panel
Apply sealant to window seal
Replace coolant and power steering screws (due to rust)
Spray treatment to engine and injector site.
Fit new fasteners and install engine cover to to of engine.

I had to make an appointment for fiat garage to inspect the work needed 
They have now ordered the parts delivery 3- 5 days and then about six hours to fix 
Fingers crossed
Thanks 
Andrew


----------



## vicdicdoc

Sounds like 'people power' has worked !


----------



## geraldandannie

Great info, Andrew. I'm going to merge this thread with the main thread.

Thanks for posting! 

Gerald

_Edit - phew, it worked_


----------



## christopherobin

*Water Ingress etc*

Hi Gerald

Can you pleeeease tell me which is the main thread?
and is it possible to have it as a sticky on the main page.

Chris


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi, Chris

This is the main thread. I'll try to sticky it.

Gerald


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*

Hi christopherobin.
I think maybe this is the main thread :?: 
maybe the very informative post by ritariviera181/Andrew was posted as a new thread & mods are trying to keep the "issue" tidy & to one thread so we don't monopolise the forum 

I have also wondered about this thread having "Sticky" status but the problem I fear with that is that it would be more difficult to see if there are any recent postings without checking :roll: & perhaps we have had a lot of stickies and other members may like that even less than the previous multiple threads :idea: :?:

Main thing is that everyone now knows this BIG thread is here and do not have to look at it if they don't want.

Just a thought & perhaps others have an opinion on how to keep us all informed.

Thanks for all updates so far...things are becoming clearer,lets hope these things get done.
Sadly we may now have to put pressure on Peugeot :idea: 
Any updates from Peugeot water babies :?: :?: :?:


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*



1happy said:


> I have also wondered about this thread having "Sticky" status but the problem I fear with that is that it would be more difficult to see if there are any recent postings without checking :roll: & perhaps we have had a lot of stickies and other members may like that even less than the previous multiple threads :idea: :?:


Ahhh ... to sticky or not to stixky - that is the question. I've stickied it.

Last time I stickied it, it stayed at the top of the "10 most recent thrreads" list for a while, which I didn't want. However, I saw the same thime happen to another thread, and it disappeared off the top eventually.

It's top of the stickies in the "Base chassis" forum, so hopefully people will be able to find it OK.

Gerald


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!! Sticky*

Hi geraldandannie.
Thanks thats great  
I was worried about a few things as you know.
But that looks like the best of both worlds 8) 
Now it will only drop when people stop posting / have no more concerns :roll: 
Thank you again
Catherine


----------



## sennen523

*FIAT RECALLS./WATER INGRESS.*

Hi All,
Thanks to Andrew (ritariviera181) for your post.
I haven't yet had the official recall notices but I have now booked in my Motorhome into a FIAT dealer for the recall work to be done.
They will need the motorhome for two days and are providing a courtesy car but I will have to pay the insurance.
As Andrew says, the RECALL NUMBERS ARE: (X2/50 FIAT)
5221, 5247,5251,5219.

Thanks Andrew and Peter from Swift.

Al Sennen523.


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hello

In addition to rain water entering the engine bay last night, I once again have a flat engine battery. I can charge it up via the Swift control panel, but, the point being just 50 hours after the van was driven, the engine battery is U/S.

A new battery was fitted last week.

Russell


----------



## 1happy

*Engine battery!!*

Hi Rapide561.
I'm glad you have brought this up on this thread.
I am very sorry you are having this problem AGAIN!
I have caught the odd discussion about this "issue" & sincerely hope its not widespread. :roll: 
We have not used ours for months (because of the "scuttlegate" problems)
& * wonder how many other people have this problem & when did it start :?: *
Perhaps as you say "this is your second battery" there is a problem on some vans...not the battery....just a thought :roll: 
I will be interested to see the responses.
Regards Catherine


----------



## 107576

Hi Catherine 

Eight weeks tomorrow and i am still waiting to get my motorhome back after the cold start smoking issues , I have not received any letters or information reguarding any peugeot recalls as yet 

kind reguards 
Adrian


----------



## Rapide561

*Scuttlegate*

Hi

I love the word scuttlegate. We must write to the Oxford Dictionary people to get this added as a new word. I wonder what the definition would be?

Russell


----------



## 1happy

*Peugeot & "scuttlegate"*



adegroo said:


> Eight weeks tomorrow and i am still waiting to get my motorhome back after the cold start smoking issues , I have not received any letters or information reguarding any peugeot recalls as yet
> 
> kind reguards
> Adrian


Hi Adrian.
That is disgusting! (I could say more but I don't want to swear) :roll: 
Hope you can sue for the loss of use!! :idea:

If it makes you feel any better I don't think any of the S.W.E.A.R club members have had any letters either & recall news was originally delivered by Peter/Swift. 
I am sure he said he would try to find out what Peugeot were doing!
I might be wrong & am sure he will come along and tell us if he knows anything!

Hi Rapide561.
Hmmmmmm scuttlegate...
I have grown fond of it too, only wish I had thought of it 1st :lol:

To the member who tried Wikipedia ...you know who you are!...I now believe that the issue has possibly (or will shortly) be noteworthy enough to merit a mention in one form or another...
...something to hopefully remember should the campaining on either companies be forced to continue.

Oops me just spotted a cat amongst the pigeons :wink:


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Peugeot & "scuttlegate"*



1happy said:


> adegroo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eight weeks tomorrow and i am still waiting to get my motorhome back after the cold start smoking issues , I have not received any letters or information reguarding any peugeot recalls as yet
> 
> kind reguards
> Adrian
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Adrian.
> That is disgusting! (I could say more but I don't want to swear) :roll:
> Hope you can sue for the loss of use!! :idea:
> 
> If it makes you feel any better I don't think any of the S.W.E.A.R club members have had any letters either & recall news was originally delivered by Peter/Swift.
> I am sure he said he would try to find out what Peugeot were doing!
> I might be wrong & am sure he will come along and tell us if he knows anything!
> 
> Hi Rapide561.
> Hmmmmmm scuttlegate...
> I have grown fond of it too, only wish I had thought of it 1st :lol:
> 
> To the member who tried Wikipedia ...you know who you are!...I now believe that the issue has possibly (or will shortly) be noteworthy enough to merit a mention in one form or another...
> ...something to hopefully remember should the campaining on either companies be forced to continue.
> 
> Oops me just spotted a cat amongst the pigeons :wink:
Click to expand...

Still waiting to hear from them!Peter.


----------



## Polo

*Scuttlegate*

Hi all. I, like all of you, still await with great hope of a response from our Peugeot Dealership!!! To date utter silence from that so called company that has customer care to the fore!!!! :evil: :evil: I wonder how long it will take one of their cretins to get their act together and get things moving for us so called 'lower class' vehicle owners??? Although we are fortunately able to enjoy using our motorhome and it is a great vehicle to drive, it still doesn't help any of us knowing that its being got at by weather!!!!! I can only say how hard it must be for those of you who aren't able to enjoy their units due to no fault of their own!!! Been there, but that story is behind us thankfully!


----------



## 96299

HI gang

Just an update.

Van went in today because the injection system light was staying on and I also had a battery drain.

The battery drain is being caused by the radio drawing 1 amp even when radio front is not connected.  Back to dealer on that one then.Oh,nearly forgot.They stung me for £75 incl vat for the diagnostic on the battery.Steep or what 8O I will be reimbursed by dealer.
Engine clean-up and sealed...Wasn`t impressed with this and told them so when I picked the M/H up.Told to keep an eye on it and if I wasn`t happy then they would re-do it.Washy type rust still showing,whether this will disappear in time I dont know,but doubt it.

Injestor flash upgrade...It seems to have done the trick cos the light now is going off after starting all the time.

The dealer had no more recall stuff for my motor at this time.

steve


----------



## carolgavin

Hi all nowt from Peugeot planty on legal front though too upset/miffed/gutted etc to post whole story at the mo. Wil do later when calm


----------



## Polo

Hi Carol. That sounds nasty! Anyway calm down and don't have a heart attack, please! Anyway we'll hear from you later perhaps.


----------



## carolgavin

*Rejecting a vehicle.....Caution!!!*

For anyone considering rejecting their vehicle a word of caution from the recently wise  At the initial stage of this process it would appear consumer associations are giving advice which may undermine your recourse at *law*. The advice would appear to direct the individual to reject the vehicle but also to open a dialogue with regards to a possible repair/replacement. Once the individual mentions possibility of repair this option must then be allowed as a solution for the *seller* prior to any further action in respect of the rejection. This may be a small point but any mention of repair will certainly delay or preclude your right to reject.
My advice would be to contact a lawyer before sending *any* letters. This is posted in light of our current circumstances and I am in no way connected to any legal firm.


----------



## Polo

Sorry to hear that a technicality on law is causing you so much grief. What, if you have been able to consider it, is your next move? Do hope that there is a light at the end of the tunnel for you sometime soon. Keep the pecker up!


----------



## 1happy

*Rejecting a vehicle.....Caution!!!*

Hi Carol.
I agree with you Carol.
we ask solicitors when buying a house :!: 
I don't like to use a solicitor unless absolutely nessacery but even a free consultation could save a lot of grief later or a £50 letter :!: 
I hope you are less upset now & remember if nothing else we have created a lot of questions for people to ask of these companies.

I have checked the petition & even unaffected people are paying attention to this issue.
For anyone who has not signed yet & would like to its 
HERE>> http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot
Keep your chin up twinnie :wink: 
Regards Catherine


----------



## carolgavin

Hi Polo next move engineers report!!! That should be interesting eh!! 
Ta catherine for your support it is a minor set back I suppose and i am not beaten yet. Still some fight left in the old girl yet :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Rapide561

carolgavin said:


> Hi Polo next move engineers report!!! That should be interesting eh!!
> Ta catherine for your support it is a minor set back I suppose and i am not beaten yet. Still some fight left in the old girl yet :lol: :lol: :lol:


Carol

Remember Speedferries - they were not beaten - FIGHT THE PIRATES.

Russell


----------



## christopherobin

Hi Carol

Keep fighting you'll get there in the end.

We are all thinking of you and are right behind you.

As Catherine said, "Keep your chin up"


Chris :wink:


----------



## 1happy

*Question ?*

Hi.
I know this has been linked before but with new discussions on gearbox faults I have 2 questions. :?: 
Re the below link & info.
We have the 2.3ltr but our number falls into the range given, do they not have different number ranges for the different size engines?
Does *notifying country *mean they notified the above organisation* or *they are the only country affected?

Link>> http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/dyna/rapex/create_rapex.cfm?rx_id=151

*Category: Motor vehicles
Product: Passenger car - gear box

Brand: FIAT
Type/number of model: Fiat Ducato x2/50 with 3.0 JTD diesel engine

Description: The recall concerns FIAT Ducato x2/50 with 3.0 JTD diesel engine cars, with chassis numbers from 1013691 to 1212895.

Country of origin: Italy*

Anyone?


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi, Catherine

I don't know for defniite, but I would think that a range of chassis numbers would cover a number of different types and flavours of chassis. So, although your chassis number is in the range, it's the wrong flavour, and therefore isn't covered. So imagine a line of chassis coming down the production track, with sequential numbers, but some would have 2.3l engines, and some 3.0l engines.

Gerald


----------



## sallytrafic

When a month or so ago I asked for a sense of proportion (probably in one of the closed threads) about the water ingress and contrasted it to the fifth gear problem of earlier fiats I didn't realise that there would have to be a 'real' recall about the new fiat gearbox. No wonder fiat were a bit slow reacting to water ingress they have other more major problems.


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*

Hi All.
Thanks for the response geraldandannie.  
Thanks for your posting too sallytrafic.  
I agree I didn't think there would be VOSA recalls either. 8O 
I was just annoyed at the atrocious customer service! :roll:

Now I am wondering if anyone has had any work done re The (non-VOSA) recalls or Water ingress???

Have any of our Peugeot affected members had any info yet ?

Also does anyone know yet whats causing the flat vehicle batteries on some X250s??

*Anyone??*
Regards Catherine


----------



## AlanMo

If you look here you will see my post re injector lights and brake light switch/ I haven't see the latter mentioned before.

http://motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-34976-days0-orderasc-30.html


----------



## Guest

*X250 Water ingress problem gets mentioned on TV!*

Don't get too excited, But during their coverage of the NEC show this evening, the Caravan Channel (Sky 167) had Chris G standing one the Fiat stand talking about the scuttle problem. Unfortunately there was no-one from Fiat discussing it with him. Although, He expressed himself of the view that Fiat had now acknowledged that there was a problem and had offered a dealer fit solution.

I must admit, not being directly involved I haven't followed the minutai of developments with Sevel. So this may be old news, in which case I apologise for wasting everyone's time.

Gets coat... leaves room.


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: X250 Water ingress problem gets mentioned on TV!*



tco said:


> Don't get too excited, But during their coverage of the NEC show this evening, the Caravan Channel (Sky 167) had Chris G standing one the Fiat stand talking about the scuttle problem. Unfortunately there was no-one from Fiat discussing it with him. Although, He expressed himself of the view that Fiat had now acknowledged that there was a problem and had offered a dealer fit solution.
> 
> I must admit, not being directly involved I haven't followed the minutai of developments with Sevel. So this may be old news, in which case I apologise for wasting everyone's time.
> 
> Gets coat... leaves room.


Well we did know about this but then we all follow scuttlegate avidly as we are sufferers :lol: :lol: But don't leave  we like you  stay and share the water it's lovely :wink: :wink:


----------



## grahamw

*Swiftgroup response*

Just been away for several days enjoying the use of my Swift motorhome and have got a little behind with this fast moving thread but noticed a posting from Peter at Swift which I quote as follows.

"We have agreed with Fiat a process to deal with the small holes and an additional drain hole for the N/S drainage channel so hopefully we will start on Swift production Mhomes in a couple of weeks we will also try and make it retro fitable.Peter."

This tends to suggest that whilst Fiat will eventually make the necessary ammendments to the scuttle and its sealing it will still leave something to be desired in terms of the overall effectiveness of the drainage system which Swift, to their credit, intend to deal with at their expense on new production motorhomes.

As I understand it the very small drainage hole draining the area of the offside wiper motor will simply have the hole enlarged as with the small hole on the nearside. There seems to be no mention of Fiat introducing a nearside drainage hole on the main drainage channel. As such then the fix by Fiat leaves a lot to be desired as these enlarged drainage holes will simply drain into the engine bay.

I wonder if Peter could respond to my thoughts on this one. If my interpretaion of what Fiat are to do is correct would it be wise to ask my dealer not to enlarge the two small drainage holes so that the retro fitting of proper drainage pipes from these two areas can be better achieved. By this I am assuming that the two small holes being to the corners of these drainage areas are not sited in the best position and fresh holes in a more central position would make the task easier. It would then be a simple matter as we all know to block the existing two small drainage holes.

Peter, I'm obviously very interested in the possibilty of Swift making available through dealers a retrofit kit to deal with the two small drainage holes and an additional nearside channel drainage hole. I've been looking myself already for parts that might be suitable for doing this in view of Fiat's limited solution. I'd be very pleased to hear of any news on such a retrofit kit.

Graham


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi, Graham

Glad you're getting out and enjoying this warm weather 

You might want to wait until Fiat have done their work on it first - you don't want to be invalidating warranties with modifications to this area. The only work I've done is to splodge sealant along the centre join (not very pretty, but it seems to work) and to block up the nearside hole which sits over the fuse box (ditto). I could argue that this was the minimum remedial work I can carry out in the short term.

When the work is done, I'll give it a 'bucket of water' test. Don't forget, it's not just a downpour of rain we have to guard against, but cleaning the front of the body over the cab and the windscreen will also drop a load of water into that area, and the seal will have to be good to stop that getting into the engine bay.

Gerald


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !*

Hi All.
Just two quick questions  
Because the thread has been moving so quickly.
Does anyone know what Recalls/campains affect the 2.3ltr/130 multijet. :?: 
I plan to check back through the threads  but its not always clear which recalls are for which base vehicle 8O

*Also*

Has anyone had *any* work re the recalls or ingress yet :?:

Sorry to be a pain but I think we are hopefully nearing the end & keeping each other informed/collating is the best way forward.

Many thanks to all contributors in advance.  
Regards C


----------



## grahamw

Thanks for the response geraldandannie.

I certainly do intend to let a Fiat dealership do the work first, that's why I'm seeking advice as to whether or not I should allow them to do the inadequate "fix" of enlarging the small drain holes. It may well make it more difficult to do a good fix later either by myself or through a motorhome dealership if as Peter @ Swift suggests they may make available a retrofit kit for this purpose.

Graham


----------



## 1happy

*Re: NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !*

Re:- Earlier post. 
I have checked through the threads now & its very difficult to get up to date info on the specific models 8O 
If anyone has the info below & doesn't want to post on the forum for any reason I will be most grateful if you PM me. 

"Does anyone know what Recalls/campaigns affect the 2.3ltr/130 multijet. :?: 
I plan to check back through the threads  but its not always clear which recalls are for which base vehicle 8O

*Also*

Has anyone had *any* work re the recalls or ingress yet :?:

Sorry to be a pain but I think we are hopefully nearing the end & keeping each other informed/collating is the best way forward.

Many thanks to all contributors in advance.  
Regards C"


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Swiftgroup response*



grahamw said:


> Just been away for several days enjoying the use of my Swift motorhome and have got a little behind with this fast moving thread but noticed a posting from Peter at Swift which I quote as follows.
> 
> "We have agreed with Fiat a process to deal with the small holes and an additional drain hole for the N/S drainage channel so hopefully we will start on Swift production Mhomes in a couple of weeks we will also try and make it retro fitable.Peter."
> 
> This tends to suggest that whilst Fiat will eventually make the necessary ammendments to the scuttle and its sealing it will still leave something to be desired in terms of the overall effectiveness of the drainage system which Swift, to their credit, intend to deal with at their expense on new production motorhomes.
> 
> As I understand it the very small drainage hole draining the area of the offside wiper motor will simply have the hole enlarged as with the small hole on the nearside. There seems to be no mention of Fiat introducing a nearside drainage hole on the main drainage channel. As such then the fix by Fiat leaves a lot to be desired as these enlarged drainage holes will simply drain into the engine bay.
> 
> I wonder if Peter could respond to my thoughts on this one. If my interpretaion of what Fiat are to do is correct would it be wise to ask my dealer not to enlarge the two small drainage holes so that the retro fitting of proper drainage pipes from these two areas can be better achieved. By this I am assuming that the two small holes being to the corners of these drainage areas are not sited in the best position and fresh holes in a more central position would make the task easier. It would then be a simple matter as we all know to block the existing two small drainage holes.
> 
> Peter, I'm obviously very interested in the possibilty of Swift making available through dealers a retrofit kit to deal with the two small drainage holes and an additional nearside channel drainage hole. I've been looking myself already for parts that might be suitable for doing this in view of Fiat's limited solution. I'd be very pleased to hear of any news on such a retrofit kit.
> 
> Graham


Graham,the enlarging of the holes by Fiat will not affect what we intend to do as our fittings require an even larger hole so we use the existing hole as a pilot .Please send me a PM and I will update you when we have the final version.Peter.


----------



## carolgavin

*Fiat Forum*

This taken from Fiat Forum thanks to T14086
Catherine this may explain why no one has had anything done yet, need to wait till official letter is out. (Yeah I know, been there, done that, got T shirt,  but no letter) remember this is a VOSA recall not a fiat 'campaign'

*Yes of course but remember;

Affected vehicles must fall between the determined chassis ranges and many of the recalls are limited to engine type/sizes so not all recalls will affect all vehicles.

steering rack - lubrication
injectors - software update
wiper motor/starter/abs - cover
injectors - corrosion inhibitor/protection
gearbox - check (3.0 engine only)
pipe - check location in clip

I'll post up more details during the week

Garages would appreciate it if you could wait till you recieve recall letter as 15 ducato vans & 8 motorhomes desending on a small garage on a monday morning dont bare thinking about parking wise*


----------



## 107208

Hi All 
Took my X250 130 bhp chassis number 01132370 to have the following work done by Rockingham Fiat Cars Corby on Monday last week collected it on Friday (5 DAYS), they completed the work on the following:-
1 RECALL NUMBER 5221 CORRODING TO INJECTORS 

2 RECALL NU 5247 FUEL INJECTOR FLASH 

3 RECALL NU 5251 POWER STEERING PIPE 

4 RECALL 5219 NUMBERS ARE: (X2/50 FIAT not sure what this one is)
I also disscusssed at lenth if they going to fit a cover to the injectors and seal the windscreen they confirmed this work is NOT part of any warranty from Fiat, they read out the instructions from fiat which simple tell them to clean with an air line and apply some grease type material. 
On a seperate note its the 3rd time ive been to this dealer with air-conditing proplems, wiring faults, brake lights not working, Warning lights keep coming on etc etc.
On the way home the warning lights came on again, still its got to go back yet again as they did'nt have the parts to fix the air conditiong unit 
Thats better     
Brent


----------



## 1happy

*Thanks*

Hi Thanks.
Most helpful
1662brent  
&
carolgavin  
Regards C


----------



## carolgavin

*Useful info perhaps!!*

haven't been on to Peugeot forum for a while so thought would go back on noticed a post I hadn't spotted before with some contacts etc. May be useful for some so here goes

*Neither Fiat or PSA are well known for there after sales service. Have any of you contacted citizens advice? Here are some fiat contacts

Giulio Salomone is the managing director
Rob Calver is after-sales director (he is on a mission to restore customer confidence so he may be a good first contact)
Peter Newton is public relations director (would be my second choice)

the director's postal addresses are at 
Fiat House, 
240 Bath Road
Slough, 
SL1 4DX

you can address a letter with any director's name and they should receive it.

failing that you can email a director using [firstname].[lastname]@fiat.com

if that doesnt work, telephone Fiat UK's Chairman Richard Gadeselli on 020 7724 1245. he's down at Marble Arch Tower in London

12th Floor
Marble Arch Tower
55 Bryanston Street
London
W1H 7AA*Ta to moose on peugeot forum!!!!


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

The latest person to email me in respect of the farcical and shambolic operation known as a MultiJet had an email address at [email protected]

Russell


----------



## 105109

*Had our recalls for what it was worth!*

Hello all,

We took our Trigano 550 to the Fiat dealer today for its recalls. Furious to find that the only thing done to the injectors was to have waxoil painted over them. Have not yet seen the windscreen wiper engine cover, apparently situated below the join in the scuttle! Will look at that tomorrow.

Nothing was done to seal the rubber at the bottom of the windscreen or to the scuttle itself. All that was done was as per Fiat's instructions to the dealer. I can't fault the dealer, they only carried out what Fiat told them had to be done - with the exception of

steering rack - lubrication. Fiat was unable to reply the grease required to do this, it is on backorder, could be a week or weeks for it to come in!
We will then have to make an 80+ mile round trip to have this done.

The Fiat dealership has been very good with us, as best as they have been able to do so. They have told me if I can show a photograph of the actual cover, they will take it up with Fiat for us. Will also contact Fiat _again_ about the lack of sealant at the windscreen. Have already had photographs sent to them by our dealer.

These photos were sent to Fiat by our dealer about 5th September, obviously didn't make a blind bit of difference :evil: 
Jacobite


----------



## 105109

*re recall messsage above*

Sorry, 
should read Fiat culdn't supply the grease for that particular recall.

Must be an awful lot of Dcatos etc. getting greased just now.

Jacobite


----------



## 107476

What a disgrace the way Fiat is dealing with this.. What I can't understand is if I have a problem with my car and bring it into the dealer they will carry out a repair under Warranty, doesn't need a recall. I have done this many times over the years..... What am I missing.

Why aren't the garages doing it that way as a normal warranty claim 

8O 8O 


Jack


----------



## 1happy

Hi Jacobite.
Just noticed this post & have replied to another of your post on another thread.
This is the Fiat x250 you refer to?
Regards C


----------



## 105109

*x2 50 Recalls*

Hello 1 happy,

yes, the van is the Fiat X2 50.

We haven't been out to look under the bonnet today yet. My husband is furious today. Bottom line seems to be that Fiat are covering the parts that the water pours on to, not addressing the problem of where the water comes in.

We also got a courtesy van wash yesterday, it was bucketing down as well, will see what happens. Will let all know.

Thanks,
Jacobite


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*



jackthelad said:


> What a disgrace the way Fiat is dealing with this.. What I can't understand is if I have a problem with my car and bring it into the dealer they will carry out a repair under Warranty, doesn't need a recall. I have done this many times over the years..... What am I missing.
> 
> Why aren't the garages doing it that way as a normal warranty claim
> 
> 8O 8O
> 
> Jack


Hi Jack

I had no recall notification from Fiat - but found out myself about the recalls by looking at other websites and pestering Fiat direct.

The work is I believe done under warranty. The dealer does the work and sends a bill to Fiat. Fiat phoned me yesterday as I have logged a complaint about the work in respect of rust removal. Here is the photo I took and sent Fiat yesterday.

Does anyone think my rust looks like it was removed two weeks ago?

Russell


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi Russell

Nope - it looks like the rust is still there. It also looks like there is some surface corrosion on the solid injector pipes too. Again, probably not an operational problem, but still shouldn't be there, IMO.

Gerald


----------



## 107576

Hi Russell

Thats the first time a have seen a photo of the Fiat engine and the problem looks a lot worst than the peugeot issue , the peugeot 2.2 hdi engine has a large flat cam cover although there are water stain marks , it does not look anyway near as bad as that , and i would have to say thats a poor repair in my eyes

adrian


----------



## 96299

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> jackthelad said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a disgrace the way Fiat is dealing with this.. What I can't understand is if I have a problem with my car and bring it into the dealer they will carry out a repair under Warranty, doesn't need a recall. I have done this many times over the years..... What am I missing.
> 
> Why aren't the garages doing it that way as a normal warranty claim
> 
> 8O 8O
> 
> Jack
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jack
> 
> I had no recall notification from Fiat - but found out myself about the recalls by looking at other websites and pestering Fiat direct.
> 
> The work is I believe done under warranty. The dealer does the work and sends a bill to Fiat. Fiat phoned me yesterday as I have logged a complaint about the work in respect of rust removal. Here is the photo I took and sent Fiat yesterday.
> 
> Does anyone think my rust looks like it was removed two weeks ago?
> 
> Russell
Click to expand...

I`ve said it before Russell..there`s no way that has been treated.You do seem to have an excessive amount of corrosion in that engine. 8O

steve


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Had our recalls for what it was worth!*



Jacobite said:


> Hello all,
> 
> We took our Trigano 550 to the Fiat dealer today for its recalls. Furious to find that the only thing done to the injectors was to have waxoil painted over them. Have not yet seen the windscreen wiper engine cover, apparently situated below the join in the scuttle! Will look at that tomorrow.
> 
> Nothing was done to seal the rubber at the bottom of the windscreen or to the scuttle itself. All that was done was as per Fiat's instructions to the dealer. I can't fault the dealer, they only carried out what Fiat told them had to be done - with the exception of
> 
> steering rack - lubrication. Fiat was unable to reply the grease required to do this, it is on backorder, could be a week or weeks for it to come in!
> We will then have to make an 80+ mile round trip to have this done.
> 
> The Fiat dealership has been very good with us, as best as they have been able to do so. They have told me if I can show a photograph of the actual cover, they will take it up with Fiat for us. Will also contact Fiat _again_ about the lack of sealant at the windscreen. Have already had photographs sent to them by our dealer.
> 
> These photos were sent to Fiat by our dealer about 5th September, obviously didn't make a blind bit of difference :evil:
> Jacobite


We can send them our process sheet if it would help? send a pm with contact details.Peter.


----------



## 96299

Hi all

Heres some pictures of fiats recent attempt at the clean-up job.It looks ok but,the extreme right hand injector is still showing signs of rust,so will ask them to do it again to my satisfaction.

Click photo to get in closer.

steve


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

Mine is considerably rustier than yours, or yours is considerably nicer looking than mine!

Russell


----------



## 96299

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> Mine is considerably rustier than yours, or yours is considerably nicer looking than mine!
> 
> Russell


Yes it does Russell,but I`ve give it liberal amounts of WD40 since I`ve had it,and the long taylormade silvers help alot also.

steve


----------



## Rapide561

*WD40*

Hello

I know it is a silly question, but when mine is cleaned again - and believe me it blooming well will be - where should I spray the WD40? Also, should I still have to have a spray when I have had my treatment!!!!!

Russell


----------



## 1946

I am sorry to ask for this help but I am looking for a certain answer and have gone through about 15 pages and haven't found it yet. I am crossed eyed now ( and not from the alcohol!! ).
I have got a Fiat chassis number from a motor home in Germany and would like to know what recalls there are on it. Did I remember right that there is a website that can give you this info ?? I might be wrong, if so, sorry.
Thanks in advance for letting me know either way.
Would the left hand drive ones be as bad as the right hand drive ones ???? or no difference ??
Major decision whether to get a new one or not.

Thanks in advance for the answers.

Maddie ( who is in love with a motorhome  and does not know what to do )


----------



## 96299

*Re: WD40*



Rapide561 said:


> Hello
> 
> I know it is a silly question, but when mine is cleaned again - and believe me it blooming well will be - where should I spray the WD40? Also, should I still have to have a spray when I have had my treatment!!!!!
> 
> Russell


I dont think more spraying with WD40 will be necessary .Just keep an eye on things ,just in case.

steve


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

1946 - if you phone Fiat UK on 01753 511431 your call will be answered by a human operator rather than a "press 1" etc etc. Ask to speak to customer services in the UK. When you get there, give them your chassis number and they can tell you if there are any recalls on the vehicle.

Steve - thanks for the info.

All - Fiat have phoned me again - we are doing very well. In respect of my van as seen above, they want to speak to other dealers to establish the results etc. Please could I ask for the names of dealers who have removed rust for you. PM me if you prefer.

Russell


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Forgot to say, I advised Fiat to look at this webiste! They logged on and could read the posts but not see the photos. I think you have to be a member to view pics etc.

Russell


----------



## some-where-in-oxford

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Forgot to say, I advised Fiat to look at this webiste! They logged on and could read the posts but not see the photos. I think you have to be a member to view pics etc.
> 
> Russell


Perhaps Fiat should be offered a free temporary subscription? They would then be able to see exactly what the problem is.


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> ll. In respect of my van as seen above, they want to speak to other dealers to establish the results etc. Please could I ask for the names of dealers who have removed rust for you.
> Russell


PM on way Russell.

G


----------



## 1946

thanks a lot, Russell. Great help

Maddie


----------



## smick

*Fiat Water Ingress and Recalls*

In my view, with the amount of money Fiat have cost everyone, they can pay for a b****y subscription if they want to see the photos !


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

I would imagine Fiat have seen the forum before.

Come on Fiat - pay your tenner and join in.

Russell


----------



## tramp

*2.2 multijet*

hi all,
our adria twin goes into have its bits fixed tomorrow, on a different subject the 2.2 engine is made in the UK by ford at Dagenham in a joint partnership with peugeot and citroen so will be different to the 2.3 and 3.0 which are purely fiat/Iveco in design. has some one got a photo of the engine cover seen at the nec show on the fiats as i`d like one to show my dealer.

cheers tramp


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: 2.2 multijet*



tramp said:


> hi all,
> our adria twin goes into have its bits fixed tomorrow, on a different subject the 2.2 engine is made in the UK by ford at Dagenham in a joint partnership with peugeot and citroen so will be different to the 2.3 and 3.0 which are purely fiat/Iveco in design. has some one got a photo of the engine cover seen at the nec show on the fiats as i`d like one to show my dealer.
> 
> cheers tramp


I am sure urbanracer posted pics of them before he left try under his user name they should come up

Try this

also this


----------



## haroldh

ANDREW 

Thank you for your informative post re the recalls and the fix for the water ingress.....................however my Fiat dealer has no knowledge of the Scuttle fixes and engine cover are you able to supply details of your Fiat dealer so I can get mine to contact them
Thank you
Haroldh/


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi Harold (fellow Chausson owner)

You need to contact the Fiat support line - Russell posted this earlier:



> If you phone Fiat UK on 01753 511431 your call will be answered by a human operator rather than a "press 1" etc etc. Ask to speak to customer services in the UK. When you get there, give them your chassis number and they can tell you if there are any recalls on the vehicle.


Gerald


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

I am taking my Corsa to a Vauxhall agent for it's first service today - 20,000 miles. What has that got to do with Fiat I hear you cry? Ah well, the Vauxhall agent is adjacent to Piccadilly Fiat! I am going to show the service manager my photos and establish what THEY could do with my cam etc.

Russell


----------



## sennen523

*X2/50 WATER INGRESS.*

Hi All,
My FIAT x2/50 is booked into a Fiat Dealership for all the recall work next week. 
Can anyone tell me what exactly they *should be doing* with regard to the recall item 5221 (corroding injectors). The FIAT CUSTOMER SERVICE had no idea at all!!
If they are ONLY going to spray Waxoyl on the injectors I won't be bothering.

Thanks
Al,
Sennen 523.


----------



## 96299

*Re: X2/50 WATER INGRESS.*



sennen523 said:


> Hi All,
> My FIAT x2/50 is booked into a Fiat Dealership for all the recall work next week.
> Can anyone tell me what exactly they *should be doing* with regard to the recall item 5221 (corroding injectors). The FIAT CUSTOMER SERVICE had no idea at all!!
> If they are ONLY going to spray Waxoyl on the injectors I won't be bothering.
> 
> Thanks
> Al,
> Sennen 523.


High AL

They use a treatment that breaks down the rust ( cant remember name of it ) and turns it black.This then has to be allowed to dry before they apply waxoyl or similar treatment.

Wouldn`t be a bad idea if you could stand over them while they do it,just to make sure they do it to your satisfaction.I wish I did,although mine aint to bad, but will insist it be done again.

steve


----------



## sennen523

*X2/50 WATER INGRESS.*

Thanks Steve,
Are they supposed to fit a cover above the injectors and seal the windscreen and scuttle joints?

Al.


----------



## 96299

*Re: X2/50 WATER INGRESS.*



sennen523 said:


> Thanks Steve,
> Are they supposed to fit a cover above the injectors and seal the windscreen and scuttle joints?
> 
> Al.


Cover...depends what engine you have. 3.0l engine cover will be the last to arrive as I understand it,and not to sure if the other size engine covers are ready yet either. :roll:

Scuttle...Yes,seal as you described.

Maybe other recalls as well,depends on your chassis number.

steve


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Here goes....

I strolled into to Piccadilly Motors in Ripon today and asked for a word with the service manager. He appeared moments later and I explained by MultiJet rust problem.

He told me that.........

To deal with this, the dealer needs to order two lots of "stuff" - I have forgotten what it is called.

One lot of stuff is applied and left on for four hours. This is then "washed" off and I presume takes the rust with it. Later, the second product is applied - Waxoyl.

I explained that my van had been treated and showed him the photographs. Obviously it is not his place to comment about what work was or was not done elsewhere. He did say he was happy to have the motorhome in for the work to be done. I said that I would be speaking to Fiat UK again today and would advise further. Part of me says the van should go back to where the original work was done, and another part says take it elsewhere. The reason the van did not go to Picaddilly in the first place was due to the recalls and the possibility the van would need "lifting". Piccadilly can accommodate 4000kg or less only.

The first thing I am impressed with - the service manager seems to know what he is talking about. The chap did not need to go away and start reading emails etc etc.

Secondly, he actually came out to speak rather than a "can I call you later" type thing.

Awaiting developments....

Russell


----------



## 96299

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Here goes....
> 
> I strolled into to Piccadilly Motors in Ripon today and asked for a word with the service manager. He appeared moments later and I explained by MultiJet rust problem.
> 
> He told me that.........
> 
> To deal with this, the dealer needs to order two lots of "stuff" - I have forgotten what it is called.
> 
> One lot of stuff is applied and left on for four hours. This is then "washed" off and I presume takes the rust with it. Later, the second product is applied - Waxoyl.
> 
> I explained that my van had been treated and showed him the photographs. Obviously it is not his place to comment about what work was or was not done elsewhere. He did say he was happy to have the motorhome in for the work to be done. I said that I would be speaking to Fiat UK again today and would advise further. Part of me says the van should go back to where the original work was done, and another part says take it elsewhere. The reason the van did not go to Picaddilly in the first place was due to the recalls and the possibility the van would need "lifting". Piccadilly can accommodate 4000kg or less only.
> 
> The first thing I am impressed with - the service manager seems to know what he is talking about. The chap did not need to go away and start reading emails etc etc.
> 
> Secondly, he actually came out to speak rather than a "can I call you later" type thing.
> 
> Awaiting developments....
> 
> Russell


Russell.If I were you,I would go with Piccadilly Motors if you can.You have given the first place a chance and they didn`t deliver.Nuff said.

steve


----------



## Rapide561

*Re: Fiat*



Chigman said:


> Rapide561 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here goes....
> 
> I strolled into to Piccadilly Motors in Ripon today and asked for a word with the service manager. He appeared moments later and I explained by MultiJet rust problem.
> 
> He told me that.........
> 
> To deal with this, the dealer needs to order two lots of "stuff" - I have forgotten what it is called.
> 
> One lot of stuff is applied and left on for four hours. This is then "washed" off and I presume takes the rust with it. Later, the second product is applied - Waxoyl.
> 
> I explained that my van had been treated and showed him the photographs. Obviously it is not his place to comment about what work was or was not done elsewhere. He did say he was happy to have the motorhome in for the work to be done. I said that I would be speaking to Fiat UK again today and would advise further. Part of me says the van should go back to where the original work was done, and another part says take it elsewhere. The reason the van did not go to Picaddilly in the first place was due to the recalls and the possibility the van would need "lifting". Piccadilly can accommodate 4000kg or less only.
> 
> The first thing I am impressed with - the service manager seems to know what he is talking about. The chap did not need to go away and start reading emails etc etc.
> 
> Secondly, he actually came out to speak rather than a "can I call you later" type thing.
> 
> Awaiting developments....
> 
> Russell
> 
> 
> 
> Russell.If I were you,I would go with Piccadilly Motors if you can.You have given the first place a chance and they didn`t deliver.Nuff said.
> 
> steve
Click to expand...

Steve

I would if I could. As the warranty work has been done once, then I think it is Fiat's discretion whether I can go elsewhere.

Ripon is 6 miles from here, Northern Commercials are 45 miles away - more of my time and diesel!

I shall chase Fiat as we speak.

Russell


----------



## skratt

Hi all !
First thing ... a big thanks to the people for pushing this issue. Brilliant.

I wasnt even aware of anything wrong until now.

Just to sum things up :-

I have a 2.3 multijet left hooker from Deutschland on a Burstner.

Fiat dealer in Plymouth ( vospers ) said they were aware of the recall and 
im in tomorrow to get :-

recall number 5221 - cleaning rust and waxoyl
5219 - greese the steering coluom
5222 - abs cover
5223 - wiper cable re routing

So nothing there about an engine cover or sealing the scutters.

My dealer said he would have to apply to fiat for these and let me know.

Meanwhile I have been told by another dealer ( name witheld as he wasnt supposed to tell me ) that fiat will do this if I complain enough.

If I pushed for it ... what would be the maximum satisfactory solution, short of a brand new engine ??

Sorry if anything repeated , cheers.


----------



## geraldandannie

skratt said:


> recall number 5222 - abs cover
> So nothing there about an engine cover


I think the engine cover is the ABS cover - ABS is the type of plastic. Or is it a cover for the Antilock Brake System?

Gerald


----------



## geraldandannie

I've tried to collate all of the issues and recall numbers.

1. Water ingress - clean and protect, reseal as necessary. 
2. (5219) Steering - check rack and grease
3. (5247) Injection - apply new flash programme
4. Check diff and gearbox housing as a machining error can cause bearing failure (3 ltr engine only).
5. wiper motor/starter/abs - cover
6. (5221) injectors - corrosion inhibitor/protection
7. (5251) pipe - check location in clip

Any more? More detail?

Gerald

_Edit: P.S. The engine / injector cover isn't / hasn't been mentioned yet.

Edit(2) Recall no. 5219 added to "Steering rack" issue _


----------



## Polo

Its nice to see that Fiat seem to be getting their act together, even though its piecemeal! What about us Pug owners!!! The silence is deafening from that organisation :twisted: 

Our first so called 'fix' failed and we are at this moment in time waiting for our dealership to come back to us having asked them to do whatever research they needed to let us know the situation! Again, it would seem they can't find any directives etc. etc.


----------



## Pixelpusher

Since this thread seems to be growing in the number of faults being tracked, is anyone aware of a possible fix/recall for the juddering that occurs when reversing up a slight incline.

Colin


----------



## skratt

abs .... antilock brake system .. needs something doing to the cover ...

Juddering ... yes it does judder in reverse, especially when reversing up hill.

Is there not a place where fiat customers can see a complete list of all recalls or do they keep us confused deliberately ?

:?:


----------



## 96299

Pixelpusher said:


> Since this thread seems to be growing in the number of faults being tracked, is anyone aware of a possible fix/recall for the juddering that occurs when reversing up a slight incline.
> 
> Colin


have noticed this to Colin.Would like to no more about it.Seems like,as one is cured another is born.

steve


----------



## ICDSUN

Hi

Speaking to the Fiat man at NEC re reversing judder and water features, he intimated it was a characteristic not a fault :lol: , 2 guys were relaying their concerns 1 a 2.3 other 3.0 engine, I get a little on mine but put it down initially to me driving automatics for the last 12 years, but that is not the case after a couple of months so will see my Fiat dealer when it goes in for the recalls etc, hopefully it is something that can be resolved quickly as it is a little disconcerting to feel the juddering on a new vehicle, my personal thoughts are that the design and ratios were allowing for lower weights in whitevan mode than the average 2.8-3500kg that MH's see as normal


Chris


----------



## zulurita

I asked for a print out on my recalls.

My new mh (collected Sat) has had work done re:

5219 Steering rack

5221 Corroding injectors, work to rectify this

5247 Fuel injector flash

5251 Power steering pipe

I have the cover over my injectors, BUT only after I had inspected the engine bay and seen it wasn't installed and asked for it!!

Also the small drainage hole was not enlarged but it has been done now after I stated that I had seen this on the new vehicles at the NEC and had spoken to a Fiat chap re this issue.

The windscreen scuttle has been sealed now, but wasn't when I viewd it, in fact the two halves of the windscreen scuttle were 1/2" apart!! However it does appear this is not completely effective!!!

No mention of the juddering on any work done and so far I haven't experienced it, but have only done 13 miles so far!!


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

Fiat UK phoned me earlier. It seems I can either return the van to NorCom for the rust removal to be done again or I can go to Piccadilly. As NorCom is the only place that can service the thing due to it's weight, I think I will give NorCom another go.

It seems that the Waxoyl will need to be removed, then the rust removed, then a wash (shampoo and set) and finally new Waxoyl adding.

I wonder if getting Waxoyl off is a difficult job? I have been given the name of the service department manager at NorCom and will speak to him tomorrow.

I am more than willing to don a high viz jacket and stand in their workshop to oversee the events.

Russell


----------



## carolgavin

Still waiting for Peugeot :roll: :roll: :roll: No change there then!


----------



## camoyboy

Russell,
Waxoyl is easily removed with white spirit.
Colin


----------



## Zebedee

camoyboy said:


> Russell,
> Waxoyl is easily removed with white spirit.
> Colin


Not sure it will be that easy when it's been cooked Colin. Not Russell's problem though, but it would be useful to know if it does come off easily Russell.

Zeb


----------



## 1happy

*Juddering ?*



Chigman said:


> Pixelpusher said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since this thread seems to be growing in the number of faults being tracked, is anyone aware of a possible fix/recall for the juddering that occurs when reversing up a slight incline.Colin
> 
> 
> 
> have noticed this to Colin.Would like to no more about it.Seems like,as one is cured another is born.
> steve
Click to expand...

Hi Steve.
All I can say is ours judders in reverse & my hubby now uses extra rev's and that seems to stop/help reduce the "Juddering" :roll: 
I have'nt seen this mentioned re recalls :? 
Other more technical people will know more about it I am sure! 8) 
Regards C


----------



## carolgavin

Courtesy of fiatforums web link 
here The chap seems to be updating whenever he gets news
Recalls

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*I'm working on it

PLEASE NOTE...not all recalls apply to all versions/engines and markets.Most recalls also only affect a limited amount of vehicles within a given chassis range.

If your vehicle is affected you will be notified in due course so dont turn up at your nearest dealer demanding recalls are carried out straight away.Parts have to be ordered in (not all recalls are safety related) and time allocated.

5221 -

5222 - Injector reprogramming

5223 - Starter motor cover

5224 - ABS cover

xxxx - Wiper motor cover

xxxx - CV boot lubrication[/B*


----------



## grahamw

Hi All

Just had my call fron Fiat Customer Care. Asked me to make an appointment with my local Fiat dealer to have the work done.

I queried with him the situation regarding the two small drain holes and that simply enlarging them can only be regarded as a temporary solution as they will continue to discharge water into the engine bay. I also pointed out to him that the absence of a large drain hole on the nearside of the main scuttle channel allows water to pour out of the scuttle onto the engine if the vehicle is parked on a slight slope to the nearside. I pointed out to him that this was all fairly basic design work that should have been taken care off during initial development. He then went on to say that Fiat were redesigning the whole of the scuttle to eliminate all these problems. This of course is what we would expect Fiat to be doing longer term. Yes, you've all guessed my next question - is the new scuttle going to be available for fitting at Fiat's expense to existing vehicles. This he didn't know but he would look into this and get back to me.

Ah well! Time to make a call to my local dealer.

I'll tell you what though this thread has been brilliant and I for one am grateful to those who have sought to inform the rest of us. The relationship I had in my conversation with Fiat Customer Care was totally different to any discussion I'd had before. He rang to tell me of the need to book my vehicle in and I told him the recall numbers and what was going to be done and that it wasn't good enough. I'm a firm believer in the saying that "to have the knowledge is to have the power" which is why some companies tend to keep their customers in the dark.

Graham


----------



## Pixelpusher

Graham....

I'm wondering what criteria FIAT are using to determine who to call.

What size engine do you have and when did you register it?

Thxs
Colin


----------



## grahamw

Pixelpusher

Hi

I have the 130 Mulitijet (2.3) registered in March 2007. What may have generated my call what that I registered my concerns with Fiat at the NEC in October and was promised that someone would get back to me when the necessay parts/information was with the dealers.


Graham


----------



## Pixelpusher

Thanks, Graham

Colin


----------



## geraldandannie

I'm still waiting for my call from the Fiat dealer (after a couple of calls a few weeks ago). However, I'm not going to push it at the moment - using long line Taylormade silver screens, the van is OK at home and on site.

I'd rather wait until the injector cover becomes available (around the middle of this month?) and get it all done in one go. Mind you, if they're redesigning the scuttle, maybe I should wait until that becomes available. And if they are redesigning it AFTER ALL THIS TIME, what ON EARTH have they been doing since March? It was obvious that this was the only _proper_ solution :evil: :evil:

Gerald


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

Right - here goes.....

Van is booked back in to Northern Commercials although I am thinking I might be better to cancel it and go again when the engine cover is available.

Scuttles - don't ask how but I have a long scuttle in place - I think this is the scuttle. Any water lands on the scuttle and drips away. Is my scuttle different to your scuttle? The thing I call the scuttle is the black water slide in the middle!

Russell


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Is my scuttle different to your scuttle?


I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours !


WHERE ARE FIAT ?

Why aren't they making things clear ? All of us wandering around picking up bits of information here, there and everywhere and none of us knowing what is going on . It is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

The original faults are inexcusable but the failure to communicate from Fiat is far worse.

G


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi Steve (Chigman)

Can I ask if your engine photos were taken .....

1) After the rust was removed
2) Before the waxoyl was added
3) After the waxoyl was added

Thanks

Russell


----------



## 1happy

Hi Rapide561.
Where does the water go from your "slide" ?
Is it a Fiat addition or done by Swift ?
I call the scuttle that the thing above your "slide" the one thats splitting and causing many of the problems in the 1st place.
Thanks for the picture, it all helps  

Also missed Chigman's piccies :? are the on this thread? :? 

Hi Grizzly.
I wonder that too :roll: 


Cheers C


----------



## 107208

Hi you may find this interesting!!!!!!!!

After my last post I wrote to Corby Motors enclosing a copy of Fiat press release cut and pasted from this web site, together with the photos showing the relevant parts. Had a call from the service manager at Corby motors today asking if I would like to order the plastic injector cover, as Fiat will not be supplying this item under warranty, he was unsure of the cost but confirmed he would order me one and invoice me once they had fitted it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!. He also told me that my X250 was the first one they had completed any warranty work which really surprises me as they are a very large dealer. On a positive note he also told me that Fiat had sent a new condensing unit (the second one so far in 6 months) for my Air conditioning but had only allow him .3 of an hour to fit it what a same…


----------



## geraldandannie

Russell - the scuttle is the long black plastic thing that stretches from wing to wing, and 'catches' the water as it flows from the screen. The idea is that it then guides it carefully past the engine and to the road.

Your water slide is indeed longer than mine - story of my life   I suppose the idea is that when the water comes in through the split in the 2 halves of the scuttle, the slide guides it away from the injector area and onto ...?

The cover not being supplied under warranty?? :evil: I don't mind that, as long as they guarantee no water is going to get into the engine bay from the windscreen.

Oh dear oh dear ...  

Gerald

P.S. I got the impression from Peter Smith of Swift that the covers would be supplied by Fiat. Could Peter possibly check this?


----------



## Rapide561

*Scuttles*

Hi

Right - my water slide - goodness knows where it came from. I thought the slide was the scuttle so I have learned something.

At the bottom of the windscreen are two pieces of "plastic/rubber seal" that join in the middle. The join is sealed with what looks to be like black bathroom sealant. It looks like it could be made tighter though.

The fuse box and ABS areas both have a plastic cover on.

Tomorrow - in theory - the cam area is going to have a good clean and the a further application of Waxoyl. I might wait though until a full engine cover is available - and I am led to believe that one is coming.

Russell


----------



## geraldandannie

I was just perusing the Chausson (France) website, and saw they showed both Fiat and Citroen versions of the Welcome low profile.

Note how similar the Fiat and Citroen cabs are. We know the problem exists with Fiat and Peugeot, but what about Citroen?

Anybody got a new style Citroen? Does it leak? If not, why not?

Gerald


----------



## sallytrafic

I saw a citroen white van reg 57 the other day pushed on the scuttle joint and it parted so I guess they are the same.


----------



## geraldandannie

sallytrafic said:


> I saw a citroen white van reg 57 the other day pushed on the scuttle joint and it parted so I guess they are the same.


I guess so too, Frank. I suppose there are far fewer m/hs in the UK based on the Citroen than there are based on Fiat and Peugeot.

Gerald


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Scuttles*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> Right - my water slide - goodness knows where it came from. I thought the slide was the scuttle so I have learned something.
> 
> At the bottom of the windscreen are two pieces of "plastic/rubber seal" that join in the middle. The join is sealed with what looks to be like black bathroom sealant. It looks like it could be made tighter though.
> 
> The fuse box and ABS areas both have a plastic cover on.
> 
> Tomorrow - in theory - the cam area is going to have a good clean and the a further application of Waxoyl. I might wait though until a full engine cover is available - and I am led to believe that one is coming.
> 
> Russell


We fitted the ski slope Russell it was our first attempt to stop water running on the engine.Peter.


----------



## SwiftGroup

geraldandannie said:


> Russell - the scuttle is the long black plastic thing that stretches from wing to wing, and 'catches' the water as it flows from the screen. The idea is that it then guides it carefully past the engine and to the road.
> 
> Your water slide is indeed longer than mine - story of my life   I suppose the idea is that when the water comes in through the split in the 2 halves of the scuttle, the slide guides it away from the injector area and onto ...?
> 
> The cover not being supplied under warranty?? :evil: I don't mind that, as long as they guarantee no water is going to get into the engine bay from the windscreen.
> 
> Oh dear oh dear ...
> 
> Gerald
> 
> P.S. I got the impression from Peter Smith of Swift that the covers would be supplied by Fiat. Could Peter possibly check this?


Hi gerald,I have just telephoned Fiat Italy and they have confirmed that the engine covers are FOC! There certainly is confusion out there ref the sealing of the scuttles and there has been a problem with getting enough primer to isssue to the Dealers.I have quoted Corby motors as an example of a dealer not knowing what is going on SO I will get on the case again ,my apologies for not getting it fully sorted.Peter.


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat water ingress*

Hello

Peter - Thanks for the ski slope/water slide. It does do some good at taking drips away - I did not know where it came from!

In respect of dealers who know what they are talking about, then as posted yesterday, full credit to Piccadilly Motors in Ripon.

The main place for water drops is above the cam - and this is from water dropping through the bonnet air vents. The new plastic cover (when available) should resolve this. So.....light at the end of the tunnel is respect of Scuttlegate.

Russell


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Fiat water ingress*



Rapide561 said:


> Hello
> 
> Peter - Thanks for the ski slope/water slide. It does do some good at taking drips away - I did not know where it came from!
> 
> In respect of dealers who know what they are talking about, then as posted yesterday, full credit to Piccadilly Motors in Ripon.
> 
> The main place for water drops is above the cam - and this is from water dropping through the bonnet air vents. The new plastic cover (when available) should resolve this. So.....light at the end of the tunnel is respect of Scuttlegate.
> 
> Russell


Lets hope so Russell?Peter


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Maybe I should have said

....."light at the end of the scuttle"

Russell


----------



## carolgavin

SwiftGroup said:


> geraldandannie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Russell - the scuttle is the long black plastic thing that stretches from wing to wing, and 'catches' the water as it flows from the screen. The idea is that it then guides it carefully past the engine and to the road.
> 
> Your water slide is indeed longer than mine - story of my life   I suppose the idea is that when the water comes in through the split in the 2 halves of the scuttle, the slide guides it away from the injector area and onto ...?
> 
> The cover not being supplied under warranty?? :evil: I don't mind that, as long as they guarantee no water is going to get into the engine bay from the windscreen.
> 
> Oh dear oh dear ...
> 
> Gerald
> 
> P.S. I got the impression from Peter Smith of Swift that the covers would be supplied by Fiat. Could Peter possibly check this?
> 
> 
> 
> Hi gerald,I have just telephoned Fiat Italy and they have confirmed that the engine covers are FOC! There certainly is confusion out there ref the sealing of the scuttles and there has been a problem with getting enough primer to isssue to the Dealers.I have quoted Corby motors as an example of a dealer not knowing what is going on SO I will get on the case again ,my apologies for not getting it fully sorted.Peter.
Click to expand...

Sorry to be so dense, bad week, but what is this FOC


----------



## christopherobin

Free of Charge

Chris


----------



## carolgavin

*FOC*



christopherobin said:


> Free of Charge
> 
> Chris


Thank you Christopher petal!! Just could not think what that was!!


----------



## 96299

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi Steve (Chigman)
> 
> Can I ask if your engine photos were taken .....
> 
> 1) After the rust was removed
> 2) Before the waxoyl was added
> 3) After the waxoyl was added
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Russell


Hi Russell...The photos were taken after all the injector clean up method.In other words,after the waxoyl was applied.

steve


----------



## 96299

1happy said:


> Hi Rapide561.
> Where does the water go from your "slide" ?
> Is it a Fiat addition or done by Swift ?
> I call the scuttle that the thing above your "slide" the one thats splitting and causing many of the problems in the 1st place.
> Thanks for the picture, it all helps
> 
> Also missed Chigman's piccies :? are the on this thread? :?
> 
> Hi Grizzly.
> I wonder that too :roll:
> 
> Cheers C


Here ya go lass.Scroll down to the last post.Click to enlarge.You can actualy see the waxoyl applied.

photos


----------



## geraldandannie

SwiftGroup said:


> Hi gerald,I have just telephoned Fiat Italy and they have confirmed that the engine covers are FOC! There certainly is confusion ...


Hi Peter

I don't mean to use you as the 'go-between' - I just wish someone from Fiat would come on here and tell us what's happening.

It would be really helpful for Fiat to quote their 'recall' numbers and the jobs involved, something like I tried to do :: here ::. Also, if the injector cover is a Fiat part, it must have a part number. It would be nice for us to know this part number / these part numbers. Fiat seem unable to ensure that their dealers are in possession of the full facts - it's been over a week since your meeting with them, when they said :: here :: that 


> all parts are now instock and process sheets have been issued today to Dealers re the resealing.The 3litre covers will be available mid November and we will be sent the first few


. If we can quote THE FACTS direct from Fiat, it would help communication. Wouldn't it?

How is it that dealers are still saying they don't know anything about it?

And if you're phoning them, can you ask them about the scuttle redesign, as reported earlier? As usual, the question is "WHEN?"

We really do need a definitive statement from Fiat. I've asked for this before, and they have preferred to deal through you. Why do they not just create a temporary account here, make one simple post so we can print it off and take to the dealer? They don't have to answer individual queries. They don't have to engage in discussion. Just make a statement. And maybe an update once a week until we're all sorted.

Rocket science it ain't. Customer service it certainly ain't. Arrogance from a position of perceived invulnerability it absolutely is.

Gerald


----------



## ICDSUN

Rocket science it ain't. Customer service it certainly ain't. Arrogance from a position of perceived invulnerability it absolutely is.

Gerald[/quote]

Gerald

You are spot on with that observation, please excuse the following for going of topic but it may bring a little cheer to fellow suffers of Fiatitus.

I have taken my problems with MH to my local F dealer and met with the usual never seen that scenario garbage, and still waiting for a return phone call to get the parts etc to do the first stage recalls etc.

I certainly feel a lot better now as I am in a position to be nearly as arrogant as Fiat, we had a provisional order for 14 Sevel based vans to replace our field engineers aging fleet, my engineers all liked the van for its many virtues etc, so they were the "van of choice". Well today they became "not the van of choice", I cancelled the order and removed all Fiat models from our list of cars available as company cars.

Dealer is now promising everything will be resolved etc, I never mentioned our order whilst dealing with them on my MH, so the level of service that we received was as an individual.

Meanwhile I wait as others do for a simple phone call to tell me when we might get our MH fixs as per Fiat tech bulletins.

Chris


----------



## 104869

*re water ingress*

Hi all 
I have had my m/home booked in for fix this week, and have just received a call from fiat to say the fix is NOT working so the fiat dealer has refused to carry out any more fixes at the moment.
Thought you would like to Know
Andrew


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: re water ingress*



ritariviera181 said:


> Hi all
> I have had my m/home booked in for fix this week, and have just received a call from fiat to say the fix is NOT working so the fiat dealer has refused to carry out any more fixes at the moment.
> Thought you would like to Know
> Andrew


Hi Andrew and thanks for this info. Would you be in a position to clarify which bit of the fix is not working??? 
Regards
carol


----------



## 1happy

Hi geraldandannie.
I also don't see what is so difficult about *Fiat* making the sort of posting you suggest.
Copy & paste below (hope you don't mind  ) of your brilliant post re this issue. 

"*I've tried to collate all of the issues and recall numbers.

1. Water ingress - clean and protect, reseal as necessary. 
2. (5219) Steering - check rack and grease 
3. (5247) Injection - apply new flash programme 
4. Check diff and gearbox housing as a machining error can cause bearing failure (3 ltr engine only). 
5. wiper motor/starter/abs - cover 
6. (5221) injectors - corrosion inhibitor/protection 
7. (5251) pipe - check location in clip

Any more? More detail? *"

& Bravo ICDSUN 

I wish I could cancel a big order or even have cancelled the order for current van to show dealers/manufacturers/Fiat & Peugeot that their handling of this issue not acceptable :evil:

I obviously exclude Peter/Swift from the above criticism, but sometimes wonder if Fiat are stringing *everyone* along while sales continue! :roll:

Also cheers ritariviera181 for the update.
I have said it before & will say it again "*we do need to keep each other updated"* because some companies are seriously underestimating the power of the internet 8O

These issues may not be unique in vehicle history but that does not make it right & it is causing concern & misery to many owners! :evil:  :evil:  
Regards C

Hi Carol
Yep all clarification gratefully recieved.Please. 8)


----------



## Grizzly

1happy said:


> 6
> 
> These issues may not be unique in vehicle history but that does not make it right & it is causing concern & misery to many owners! :


At least *most* dealers now have *some* idea what is going on ! In July, when we took our van for its fifth visit to a Fiat dealer to get the problem sorted he accused us of causing the scuttle damage by having had a " front end shunt" and would not let us have the van back until we had paid upfront.

That really panicked us ! See:

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-30546.html

Keep up the good work Catherine ! If it would help I'll pay your train fare to Slough and you can go and confront Fiat in the flesh !

G


----------



## Glengyle

In this month's Caravan Club magazine there's test on an Auto-Sleeper Sigma low profile on a Peugot Boxer chassis. Presumably this has the water features incorporated. The Sigma gets a glowing verdict scoring a total of 58 out of 60. No mention of the water features though :evil:


----------



## carolgavin

*Peugeot*

Apparently there is an engine cover available for the Purilegeot as well except Purilegeot say they cannot find a parts number for it. If anyone has any info on this could they please please post it????
Our van goes in very soon for first attempt at repair and would like to have the facts part nos recall nos in front of me before they touch it!! 
Ta muchos for all still posting info on this thread. Is it just me or is it time that this farce came to an end?????????? 
Come on Fiart and Purilegeot get off your big fat cat butts and FIX this properly


----------



## 107576

Hi All

After a nine week one day wait i have finally got the phone call from charters aldershot to say that the repairs have been carried out to my motorhome and i can come and collect it , i also asked about the water ingress problem i have been told thats it has been sorted to , no details has yet will keep you informed as to what was done temporary / permanent repair
I am just so pleased to be getting the motorhome back at the moment 

Adrian


----------



## 1happy

*Fiat & Peugeot Faults-Recalls Reported NEW Ducato &*

Hi Grizzly.
Have had a quick peek at the ! *"Fiat X250 windscreen- you will not believe this !"* post as per your link. 8O 8O 8O 
Would you like me to add this link to the first post with all the others ?
Thanks for the offer of the train fare, :lol: but I don't think one person at the head office will make any difference,  
If all of the reports on here and elsewhere doesn't get action what difference would it make? 
They obviously don't care & the "scuttlegate" vans are still selling!!!!
Regards C


----------



## 1happy

*Re: Peugeot*



carolgavin said:


> Apparently there is an engine cover available for the Purilegeot as well except Purilegeot say they cannot find a parts number for it. If anyone has any info on this could they please please post it????
> Our van goes in very soon for first attempt at repair and would like to have the facts part nos recall nos in front of me before they touch it!!
> Ta muchos for all still posting info on this thread. Is it just me or is it time that this farce came to an end??????????
> Come on Fiart and Purilegeot get off your big fat cat butts and FIX this properly


Hi Carol.
Hear Hear!
Purilegeot are apparently :roll: hiding behind FiARTs apron strings.
Maybe some other owners know something new :roll: 
Regards C

Hi adegroo.
Good work, keep us posted, 
I am hopeful that someone gets a proper fix and we can all see it..soon.
Cheers C


----------



## AlanMo

Hi 1happy

Re your list of Fiat faults - if you look at my post (below) you will be able to add another one which is potentially dangerous. That is the faulty brake light switch leading to fuel cut out and complete stall.

http://motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-324434.html#324434


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Fiat & Peugeot Faults-Recalls Reported NEW Ducato &a*



1happy said:


> Hi Grizzly.
> Have had a quick peek at the ! *"Fiat X250 windscreen- you will not believe this !"* post as per your link.
> Would you like me to add this link to the first post with all the others ?
> C


Not sure it would make any difference to the sum of peoples's knowledge Catherine but perhaps it serves to show that we have come some way in that at least Fiat dealers now know better than to think the problem is unique.

We are now using a dealer in another part of the county for fixes !

G


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*

Hi.
Me too Grizzly.

Hi AlanMo.
Did you manage to find out if you are the only one with this "Issue/Fault"
I have been very busy and although I had seen the thread have not managed to keep up with it all.
Perhaps you could do a posting here with what you have managed to learn & definitely if there are more affected :?: :!: 
Sadly this water ingress thread started back in Febuary/March with just one member wondering if it was a one off???
Regards C
Edit:- PS forgot to say  
Not my list  
Thank Grizzly for the collating/questioning if this is all the "issues" :?:


----------



## AlanMo

No apparently it is a known fault and Fiat have issue instructions about remedy. I was told that initially some garages were repalcing the switch with a new one but the guidances says this not necessary and resetting and lubrication is specified.
I'm sure that there were one or two replies to my original post which reported similar problems.


----------



## 1946

Our Adria is going in for a service on the 26th Nov. at Fiat's in Slough.
Roger will go and have a word with them.

Maddie


----------



## Grizzly

1946 said:


> Our Adria is going in for a service on the 26th Nov. at Fiat's in Slough.
> Roger will go and have a word with them.
> 
> Maddie


Given that Fiat's UK HQ is in Slough perhaps your dealer can get the info from the horse's mouth so to speak ?

G


----------



## 95877

*DUCATO BRAKE SERVO VACUUM PIPE ICING..RECALL..*

Hi, I took my van to a Fiat main dealers last weekend 3/11/07 for the brake servo vacuum pipe recall. It took about an hour to do but when I was driving the van home it coughed and spluttered and was belching out thick black smoke but then it ran perfect, then it did it again and the last few miles home it was fine. I put this coughing and spluttering down to a bit of dirt in the fuel, as I was running low. 
I came home from work this afternoon 9/11/07 and loaded the van for a weekend away and then told the wife I would go and get some fuel. Anyway the van ran like the proverbial bag of spanners. I limped home and immediately phoned the dealers that did the recall work. I told them the above story and mentioned that the van had only covered 7000 miles and always ran like a dream until they carried out this work. The man on the phone shouted to a mechanic and asked if the recall could cause my vans symptoms. The mechanic replied that they may have fitted it the wrong way round or it could be the solenoid. I'm still non the wiser and its booked in again tomorrow morning. We will see!!!!!
Has anyone else experienced anything similar after this recall?????????
Regards, Mark..........
UPDATE...Just got back from Fiat.(10/11/07) The van now runs like a dream again. The man at Fiat said that the valve that was fitted at the recall was faulty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Evening all

I took the Fiat to Northern Commercials today. On arrival, the service manager (I think) came to have a look at my engine. I also showed him Steve's photos - and there clearly was no comparison.

We also had a look under the bonnet. Somewhere in this thread, I stated that there was oil on the cam. The first thing this guy noticed - was oil all over the cam. A bit of work was done and a new copper washer was fitted to sort the small but messy oil leak.

One of the guys gave me a lift into Huddersfield and I returned to NorCom a few hours later.

It is not a very clear photo but al the rust has gone. The came still looks dirty but this is due to oil stains I think.

Here is a pic.

Russell


----------



## skratt

ayup !

I had the recall work done by vospers in Plymouth as follows ...

5221 - cleaning rust and waxoyl 
5219 - greese the steering coluom 
5222 - abs cover 
5223 - wiper cable re routing 

i had previosly called fiat and said ...hang on... wheres my engine cover and stuff like that ?

The nice man at vospers did all the work and it looks good. He then said that fiat had called and authorised an engine cover.

Fiat also called me to confirm that an engine cover was on its way.

I am impressed


----------



## Autoquest

Not sure where to post now as we have so many threads running...

Corby motors have aready replaced all of the rusty bits on my engine, they are going to reseal the failed silicon job and they have offered to order and fit under warranty the new engine cover - should have it within the next few weeks.


----------



## carolgavin

Autoquest said:


> Not sure where to post now as we have so many threads running...
> 
> Corby motors have aready replaced all of the rusty bits on my engine, they are going to reseal the failed silicon job and they have offered to order and fit under warranty the new engine cover - should have it within the next few weeks.


Hi again Autoquest, this is the main thread now all others (or most all) have been locked but can be found on links on first page of this thread. Any updates etc best to post here as you have done. Thanks for the info!
Mine will be going in shortly.


----------



## Polo

*Scuttlegate*

Hi Carolgavin. Do I see that your vehicle is going in shortly? I do hope that means there is some sort of movement to a happy ending.


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Scuttlegate*



Polo said:


> Hi Carolgavin. Do I see that your vehicle is going in shortly? I do hope that means there is some sort of movement to a happy ending.


Hiya sent you a PM but yes in essence there is movement in the saga


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*



Autoquest said:


> Corby motors have aready replaced all of the rusty bits on my engine, they are going to reseal the failed silicon job and they have offered to order and fit under warranty the new engine cover - should have it within the next few weeks.


Hi Autoquest.  
Re above:- *"*Corby motors have already *replaced* all of the rusty bits on my engine*"*
Could you clarify for the benefit of other members did they replace or Clean? 8) 
If they did replace parts..do you know which parts?
Also have you a Peugeot or Fiat ?  
Regards C


----------



## Tucano

Our van goes back to Baldwins for habitation work then Fiat for there problems on the 20th of the month.
Fiat say they are unaware of the scuttle problem !!
NOT FOR MUCH LONGER :evil: :evil: :evil: 
Norman


----------



## johnc

*Fiat to stop scuttle repairs as they do not work.*

Don't wish to be alarmist but a posting on the Fiat Forum no less than 22 hours ago states the following.

_"I had an e-mail today saying that Fiat will no longer do any scuttle repairs as what they do does not work."_

Anyone else heard this as this is against all that has been said on this forum. The mid scuttle repair on my Peugeot seems to be almost water tight, drips a little.


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: re water ingress*



ritariviera181 said:


> Hi all
> I have had my m/home booked in for fix this week, and have just received a call from fiat to say the fix is NOT working so the fiat dealer has refused to carry out any more fixes at the moment.
> Thought you would like to Know
> Andrew


John see quote above from a day or so ago!!! Confirms what you have seen!!


----------



## MikeH

*fiat water ingress and judder in reverse gear*

Hi. 
You can add my MH (2.3 130 multijet) to the list suffering from water ingress and clutch judder, (especially when going up an incline). Had it booked in for recall work to be done last friday (2nd). Cancelled appointment when dealer told me they didn't have replacement scuttle or any instructions to seal it, said I'll wait and have the jobs done all together. It's 100 mile round trip to nearest dealer and my insurance company want to charge me to issue a cover note for courtesy car. In the meantime I have sealed the scuttle with black gaffer tape and drilled a hole in the air intake on the bonnet, so that the retained water drains out before opening bonnet, seems to be working, also sprayed the injectors with WD 40. They are dry at the moment.
Has anyone thought about asking Watchdog to help? :?:


----------



## Polo

Hi Mike H. Yes I for one have involved Watchdog and I know that there are others as well!!!


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*

Hi Carol & John.
It would appear to be the case that *the "Fiat Fix" that took since Febuary/March for to come up with *doesn't work & now that Fiat have realised this they will presumably not waste money on it :roll: 
OR 
Maybe they are just to BL**DY busy dealing with the recalls :!: to bother about preventing the water getting onto the engines of our pride & joys.

This of course is bad news not just for us FiART customers, but also for our Peugeot scuttlegate cousins.

Is anyone else as pi**ed off as me :?: 
Regards C
:diabloanifire:


----------



## Polo

Here here Catherine and all. Totally p***ed off! I just wish we could get some concrete info as to what Peugeot is intending to do insted of ignoring all of us!!!! I wouldn't mind if they came back and said s*d off!!!! At least we would have got a reaction from them!!! No I don't really mean that because I think it something that should have urgent attention from the manufacturer. In the meantime we have taken as many steps as we can to keep the water out of our engine whilst the vehicle is stationary!!


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*



1happy said:


> Is anyone else as pi**ed off as me :?:
> :


I think I could be even _more_ pi**ed off than you !

I wouldn't put any bets on this being sorted when our van goes in for its first service early next year.

We're having difficulty keeping up with what needs to be seen to. IF ONLY Fiat would tell us what is going on.

G


----------



## carolgavin

*material breach of contract*

Just been thinking about this surely (now I could be wrong!!!) not being able to fix such a material fault is a clear breach of contract. After all it does say they will repair any fault be it one of design or manufacture. So if they are saying they cannot fix it then that must be a breach of their contract with you and as such you would be entitled to rescind it.

Similarily if they do not effect repair within a 'reasonable' time and without causing significant inconveniance to the buyer then in that circumstance the buyer is entitled to request a reduction in the purchase price of the goods or alternatively cancel the contract. In these circumstances the purchaser has the additional right whether the breach is material or not to rescind the contract.

So what does this mean to all of us, ask yourself the following:

Has the manufacturer effected repair in a reasonable time?
How long have you waited??
Do you think the wait is reasonable???

If the answer is no then a nice wee letter to dealer requesting a reduction in purchase price may focus their minds!!!!
Might be worth a shot!!!

Act to quote in letter Sale of Goods Act as ammended by the Sale and Supply of Goods to consumer regulations 2002 Section 48(C)


----------



## Zebedee

*Re: NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*



1happy said:


> Is anyone else as pi**ed off as me :?:
> Regards C


You have a PM. Should make you a bit less pi**ed off.

So have you Carol.

Regards


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*



Zebedee said:


> 1happy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is anyone else as pi**ed off as me :?:
> Regards C
> 
> 
> 
> You have a PM. Should make you a bit less pi**ed off.
> 
> So have you Carol.
> 
> Regards
Click to expand...

I Love it I want it I need to have it Tell me how to do it?????????
Ta muchos petal just what I needed still cannot stop giggling!!!!


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Carol

I am hazarding a guess that IF we all badgered the dealer etc for a partial refund, it may in fact be an "ex gratia payment". This could for example be along the lines of.....

We are pleased to offer you a reduction of £xxxx and enclose a cheque herewith, on the clear understanding that we are free of any liability in respect of Scuttlegate related failures. Accepting the payment deems you have have accepted these additional terms and conditions/exclusions to your warranty etc etc

I am going to sit of the fence a few more days and await the engine cover. As for the scuttle, or the parting of the scuttle, then only a few heavy rain storms will tell.

What ever you do though, make sure you fight the pirates.

Russell


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Carol
> 
> I am hazarding a guess that IF we all badgered the dealer etc for a partial refund, it may in fact be an "ex gratia payment". This could for example be along the lines of.....
> 
> We are pleased to offer you a reduction of £xxxx and enclose a cheque herewith, on the clear understanding that we are free of any liability in respect of Scuttlegate related failures. Accepting the payment deems you have have accepted these additional terms and conditions/exclusions to your warranty etc etc
> 
> I am going to sit of the fence a few more days and await the engine cover. As for the scuttle, or the parting of the scuttle, then only a few heavy rain storms will tell.
> 
> What ever you do though, make sure you fight the pirates.
> 
> Russell


Hi Russell very possibly the scenario you paint above could be one they could say as well as a myriad of others!!!! :roll: :roll: 
I am only quoting what the law says you are entitled to, obviously in a scenario such as the above, which I honestly think they would try, you would tell them to get stuffed. As I understand it accepting a reduction does not exempt them from HAVING to fix it. I could be wrong of course and would *strongly* advise all who wish to try it to contact a legal representative and run it past them first. There may be ramifications not explored here if you do such a thing without best advice.


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: Fiat*



carolgavin said:


> As I understand it accepting a reduction does not exempt them from HAVING to fix it.


Mind you, an engineering fix to the problem is not difficult, if you were prepared to do it (and as long as it didn't invalidate the warranty). Personally, if I was offered a cash payment of some hundreds of pounds, I'd be prepared to fix the problem myself.

Gerald


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Fiat*



geraldandannie said:


> Mind you, an engineering fix to the problem is not difficult, if you were prepared to do it (and as long as it didn't invalidate the warranty). Gerald


I wonder what exactly constitutes an act that invalidates the warranty ?

I can understand that the obvious things like by- passing vital wiring or fitting devices that weaken the body or whatever would do this but providing the engine was not tinkered with or the body work or electrical systems not weakened then I can't see what exactly could invalidate the warranty ?

Would a letter to Fiat saying that you proposed to do this that and the other and would like their assurance in writing that it would not invalidate the warranty be enough to protect you I wonder ?

All is this speculation; we've stopped up the leaks with tape and sealant and the engine is dry so we'll wait but if Fiat are not going ahead with a fix in the forseeable future then we might have to think again.

Just rambling....

G


----------



## rogerandsandra

We have the 3L engine and Roger has been talking to the dealer where we will be taking ours for the recalls. The man in the service dept has been very helpful and told Roger that they have been issued a cover and repair on the smaller engines but as yet no word on the 3L. Yesterday we went to the dealers (not been before) and I spoke nicely to the salesman and asked to look under the bonnet of the new (red badged) Ducato vans. the 3L had no cover but the smaller engined ones had! The salesman didn't know what we were talking about, but was a very nice man who didn't understand the concept of motorhomes, his advice was to take it back to fiat. We don't want to take it back for the recalls until we can have everything done at once, because we have already lost 5 days annual leave with all the auto-trail problems and have no leave left! so it will now be unpaid.

Sandra


----------



## grahamw

Hi All

It doesn't surprise me to hear that Fiat may well be having second thoughts about the fix based on evidence of fixes done so far. At best their solution can only be considered as expedient. Gluing the scuttle to the windscreen is no way to build a sound vehicle. Enlarging small drainholes which still drain into the engine bay is no solution. A complete redesign of the scuttle and its replacement on all existing vehicles is what is required. Bodged fixes will do nothing for the second hand value of our motorhomes nor for the sale of new Fiat based motorhomes.

[email protected] outlined to us several modification that his company wish to make over and above those that Fiat are implementing ie the drainage tubes to the enlarged small drainholes and a new drainhole in the scuttle channel on the nearside of the vehicle. I'm sure part of the purpose of his last meeting with Fiat was to gain their approval for this. Fiat must surely have seen after that meeting with Peter how short of the mark their solution fell.

Meanwhile I've got my vehicle ducktaped across the windscreen, which solves most of the problem temporarily, and am awaiting urgently news of a complete redesign of the scuttle and its availability to us long suffering Fiat motorhomers.

Graham


----------



## timbop37

I have been following this thread with interest and keeping in touch with Carol (Carolgavin) via PM. We have just picked up a Avantgarde 100 from the same dealer where Carol got her 180.It's a 2008 model, or at least is supposed to be. The habitation definitely is but I have not investigated the base vehicle which is likely to be much older.

It has a one-piece scuttle, with large drain holes away from the engine. There was slight evidence of a rust coloured powder at one small place on the engine, which wiped away easily, which suggests that this "fix" of a one-piece scuttle (if it is a fix!) was done after assembly and before delivery to the dealer. The engine is clean and dry, with no rust, even after a downpour home. I will keep an eye on it and report back. I am still very suspicious, but I guess with so many problems reported on new vans, and degenerate build quality, it is only natural.

Regards

Tim


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi Tim

That's good news. I presume the Compass is on a Peugeot base vehicle?

Any photos (of the scuttle area)? :wink: 

Gerald


----------



## timbop37

Gerald

I will take a few photos and post them this afternoon.

Tim


----------



## geraldandannie

timbop37 said:


> I will take a few photos and post them this afternoon.


Top man! Thank you 

Gerald


----------



## timbop37

Gerald

After full inspection I can report that this was probably a van that had suffered some water ingress, illustrated by the odd spot of rust here and there, but appears ok now. By the way, it's a Peugeot base.

Regards

Tim


----------



## timbop37

The sandy coloured stuff on the last photo rubs off easily to reveal good condition underneath.

Regards

Tim


----------



## Zebedee

Hi Tim

The middle photo, No 370, appears to show a join in the scuttle. You did say it is a one-piece item. Haven't yet printed out your photos to compare closely with my truck, but could you clarify please as it doesn't look any different to mine.

Cheers


----------



## 96299

That scuttle looks the exact same as mine,a two piece one with the dodgy lap joint. :? 

steve


----------



## timbop37

Steve,

You're right. It is 2-piece. It looks 1-piece from the front. The seal above looks realy good. There is no play whatsoever from it. Obviously, someone has sealed it pretty good. I will keep an eye on it and let you know what happens.

Tim


----------



## Rapide561

*Scuttlegate*

Hi

I have a drain pipe thing. It is fastened to the bottom of the windscreen somewhere and takes water away, dropping it to the floor. Goodness knows when that appeared or where it came from. This is in addition to my water slide.

I think I will take a look under the bonnet to see what else is there.

Russell


----------



## Rapide561

*MultiJet pics*

Here goes.....a full frontal of my LHD MultiJet. Other than the obvious, in that everything is on the opposite side to it's RHD sisters, you can clearly see my water slide - which is also modified at the back and the drain pipe by the wipers.


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*

*Hi.
I have copied and pasted the 1st page of this thread & added a few more old & new threads!  
Hope this helps any new members & might help to keep too many extra threads to a minimum  *

*Personally I can't believe we are still waiting for Fiat & Peugeot to get their customer service act together*  
*.........................................................................................................*
Having looked at how disjointed the threads about this issue have become. 
I have taken into consideration friendly advice from moderators and have decided to try to bring together all the related threads. 
A search for threads produces many results but the following will do for a start. :roll: 
I shall be directing all postees? on any of my threads to this one!! & sincerely hope this appeases any critics! 
To other sufferers I say I hope this suits you also, as some where put updates or check the latest news! 
I will add some more tomorrow...But its late now and still lots to do!

*1st thread on this issue 2007-03-13 .. March for heavens sake!!*
*New Fiat Ducato ? water in Engine compartment*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-25069-fiat.html

1st is Thread topic....2nd number of Replies......3rd Views...Then a link

*Water Ingress - new Fiat / Peugeot - collate all faults here.....400..19968*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-31287-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Poll for-Water ingress!-size of problem NEW Fiat-Peugeot.....107...5337 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32158-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Re:-Online Petition Fiat-Peugeot Water Ingress to Engine!!!...38.... 1578 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32158-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Fiat Water Ingress - Fiat Solution....40..... 1925*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-34008-fiat.html+water+ingress

*18,500 Members...Can we make a difference???????????..22......... 817 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-33770-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

**** Alert***Fiat Chassis Warranty Details.....14....1203 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32549-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Calling all 2007 Fiat and Peugeot Rust Buckets... 43.... 1297*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-33523-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*I do not think the rust on the new BOXER is just cosmetic....6..... 482*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-33373-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Fiat X2/50 - Clouds Of White Smoke !!!!!... 51... 1713 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32786-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Swift Bolero 630PR Water ingress into engine bay....22..... 1129 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-31223-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Water Ingress - New Fiat/Peugeot etc... 5.... 408 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-31557-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*Peugeot Boxer - Firestorm 140 handed over on 24.5.07......4.... 363 *
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-31413-fiat.html+peugeot+water+ingress

*The Prime minister & Fiat/Peugeot Fiasco "Call to arms"*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-34474-days0-orderasc-0.html

*FIAT Recall - Brakes and Water* 
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-310442.html

*PS Please feel free to post updates etc & add your own links to related threads!*

*Brilliant videos on youtube *

1st 




2nd 




Couldn't resist adding this one lighthearted humour goes a long way!

*Join S.W.E.A.R. Today - the coolest club in town*
*HERE>>* http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-34626-swear.html

*I wonder is there an award category for side splitters* :?: :lol:

*Here's hoping Fiat and Peugeot get organised soon* :roll: 
Many thanks 1happy

*A few more to add to the list :-*

*Fiat X250 windscreen- you will not believe this !*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-30546.html

*Fiat X250 windscreen guttering fault*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-29991.html

*New Peugeot with free RUST!!!*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-32848-free.html+rust

*If anyone wants threads added to the above please PM me.
Also hope the above help people who may wish to see earlier threads​*
*Added 11th November 2007*

*Fiat bodge up for water ingress does not work.*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-35991.html


----------



## johnc

*Add this one too*

Add this opne as well.

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-35991.html


----------



## 1happy

Hi johnc.
 Done  Now started to date the additions too  
Regards C


----------



## SwiftGroup

grahamw said:


> Hi All
> 
> It doesn't surprise me to hear that Fiat may well be having second thoughts about the fix based on evidence of fixes done so far. At best their solution can only be considered as expedient. Gluing the scuttle to the windscreen is no way to build a sound vehicle. Enlarging small drainholes which still drain into the engine bay is no solution. A complete redesign of the scuttle and its replacement on all existing vehicles is what is required. Bodged fixes will do nothing for the second hand value of our motorhomes nor for the sale of new Fiat based motorhomes.
> 
> [email protected] outlined to us several modification that his company wish to make over and above those that Fiat are implementing ie the drainage tubes to the enlarged small drainholes and a new drainhole in the scuttle channel on the nearside of the vehicle. I'm sure part of the purpose of his last meeting with Fiat was to gain their approval for this. Fiat must surely have seen after that meeting with Peter how short of the mark their solution fell.
> 
> Meanwhile I've got my vehicle ducktaped across the windscreen, which solves most of the problem temporarily, and am awaiting urgently news of a complete redesign of the scuttle and its availability to us long suffering Fiat motorhomers.
> 
> Graham


We ran our first version on Friday ie enlarging the two holes at either side near the wipers and connecting a down pipe we also have drilled a hole on the nside of the scuttle and fitted another down pipe to drain the water when it flows to the nside, coupled with sealing the joint and windscreen trim it stops just about all the water entering the engine compartment.Our problem now is to find suitable conectors but it will only ever be a bit of a bodge.Fiat will be sending hopefully this week a small batch of 3litre covers which we will fit and report back.I will send Fiat pictures of what we have done.Peter.


----------



## geraldandannie

SwiftGroup said:


> it stops just about all the water entering the engine compartment.


Oh dear. Despite all that work, it stops "just about all the water". This is such a shame.

Gerald


----------



## Autoquest

Peter - The slide you sent me is still working perfectly and takes away any water that manages to get through the 'seal' but I found I needed to seal up the edges of the bonnet as well due to most of my ingress coming in from the sides - I used a thick white weatherstrip foam affixed to the underside of the bonnet and it works a treat.

Can I ask what you are attaching your extra tubing to? ie: Do you have an insert of some sort attached to the scuttle?


----------



## johnc

*cANT FIND THE SMALL HOLES*



SwiftGroup said:


> grahamw said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi All
> 
> It doesn't surprise me to hear that Fiat may well be having second thoughts about the fix based on evidence of fixes done so far. At best their solution can only be considered as expedient. Gluing the scuttle to the windscreen is no way to build a sound vehicle. Enlarging small drainholes which still drain into the engine bay is no solution. A complete redesign of the scuttle and its replacement on all existing vehicles is what is required. Bodged fixes will do nothing for the second hand value of our motorhomes nor for the sale of new Fiat based motorhomes.
> 
> [email protected] outlined to us several modification that his company wish to make over and above those that Fiat are implementing ie the drainage tubes to the enlarged small drainholes and a new drainhole in the scuttle channel on the nearside of the vehicle. I'm sure part of the purpose of his last meeting with Fiat was to gain their approval for this. Fiat must surely have seen after that meeting with Peter how short of the mark their solution fell.
> 
> Meanwhile I've got my vehicle ducktaped across the windscreen, which solves most of the problem temporarily, and am awaiting urgently news of a complete redesign of the scuttle and its availability to us long suffering Fiat motorhomers.
> 
> Graham
> 
> 
> 
> We ran our first version on Friday ie enlarging the two holes at either side near the wipers and connecting a down pipe we also have drilled a hole on the nside of the scuttle and fitted another down pipe to drain the water when it flows to the nside, coupled with sealing the joint and windscreen trim it stops just about all the water entering the engine compartment.Our problem now is to find suitable conectors but it will only ever be a bit of a bodge.Fiat will be sending hopefully this week a small batch of 3litre covers which we will fit and report back.I will send Fiat pictures of what we have done.Peter.
Click to expand...

Peter, sorry to bother you but I just cannot find the small holes near the windscreen wipers. I will be getting the van under cover tomorrow night to have a good look as the drivers side wiper arm is under a permanent puddle of water so there will be ingress into the mechanics of the wiper motor.

The other point is that you seem to be going it alone which is fine for your future customers but what is FIAT doing about this matter other than the fact that they are now saying that their long awaited fix does not work and that the dealers will not be doing any more repairs.


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: cANT FIND THE SMALL HOLES*



johnc said:


> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grahamw said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi All
> 
> It doesn't surprise me to hear that Fiat may well be having second thoughts about the fix based on evidence of fixes done so far. At best their solution can only be considered as expedient. Gluing the scuttle to the windscreen is no way to build a sound vehicle. Enlarging small drainholes which still drain into the engine bay is no solution. A complete redesign of the scuttle and its replacement on all existing vehicles is what is required. Bodged fixes will do nothing for the second hand value of our motorhomes nor for the sale of new Fiat based motorhomes.
> 
> [email protected] outlined to us several modification that his company wish to make over and above those that Fiat are implementing ie the drainage tubes to the enlarged small drainholes and a new drainhole in the scuttle channel on the nearside of the vehicle. I'm sure part of the purpose of his last meeting with Fiat was to gain their approval for this. Fiat must surely have seen after that meeting with Peter how short of the mark their solution fell.
> 
> Meanwhile I've got my vehicle ducktaped across the windscreen, which solves most of the problem temporarily, and am awaiting urgently news of a complete redesign of the scuttle and its availability to us long suffering Fiat motorhomers.
> 
> Graham
> 
> 
> 
> We ran our first version on Friday ie enlarging the two holes at either side near the wipers and connecting a down pipe we also have drilled a hole on the nside of the scuttle and fitted another down pipe to drain the water when it flows to the nside, coupled with sealing the joint and windscreen trim it stops just about all the water entering the engine compartment.Our problem now is to find suitable conectors but it will only ever be a bit of a bodge.Fiat will be sending hopefully this week a small batch of 3litre covers which we will fit and report back.I will send Fiat pictures of what we have done.Peter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Peter, sorry to bother you but I just cannot find the small holes near the windscreen wipers. I will be getting the van under cover tomorrow night to have a good look as the drivers side wiper arm is under a permanent puddle of water so there will be ingress into the mechanics of the wiper motor.
> 
> The other point is that you seem to be going it alone which is fine for your future customers but what is FIAT doing about this matter other than the fact that they are now saying that their long awaited fix does not work and that the dealers will not be doing any more repairs.
Click to expand...

The two holes are really small in the well at the extreme edge of the scuttle.Have I missed something when did Fiat say their fix doesnt work?Peter.


----------



## geraldandannie

Peter - there was a report (quoted here too) from the Fiat forum that someone had received an email to say they wouldn't be doing 'the fix'.

Not confirmed, and maybe a little bit malicious.

Gerald


----------



## johnc

*Fix does not work*



SwiftGroup said:


> johnc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grahamw said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi All
> 
> It doesn't surprise me to hear that Fiat may well be having second thoughts about the fix based on evidence of fixes done so far. At best their solution can only be considered as expedient. Gluing the scuttle to the windscreen is no way to build a sound vehicle. Enlarging small drainholes which still drain into the engine bay is no solution. A complete redesign of the scuttle and its replacement on all existing vehicles is what is required. Bodged fixes will do nothing for the second hand value of our motorhomes nor for the sale of new Fiat based motorhomes.
> 
> [email protected] outlined to us several modification that his company wish to make over and above those that Fiat are implementing ie the drainage tubes to the enlarged small drainholes and a new drainhole in the scuttle channel on the nearside of the vehicle. I'm sure part of the purpose of his last meeting with Fiat was to gain their approval for this. Fiat must surely have seen after that meeting with Peter how short of the mark their solution fell.
> 
> Meanwhile I've got my vehicle ducktaped across the windscreen, which solves most of the problem temporarily, and am awaiting urgently news of a complete redesign of the scuttle and its availability to us long suffering Fiat motorhomers.
> 
> Graham
> 
> 
> 
> We ran our first version on Friday ie enlarging the two holes at either side near the wipers and connecting a down pipe we also have drilled a hole on the nside of the scuttle and fitted another down pipe to drain the water when it flows to the nside, coupled with sealing the joint and windscreen trim it stops just about all the water entering the engine compartment.Our problem now is to find suitable conectors but it will only ever be a bit of a bodge.Fiat will be sending hopefully this week a small batch of 3litre covers which we will fit and report back.I will send Fiat pictures of what we have done.Peter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Peter, sorry to bother you but I just cannot find the small holes near the windscreen wipers. I will be getting the van under cover tomorrow night to have a good look as the drivers side wiper arm is under a permanent puddle of water so there will be ingress into the mechanics of the wiper motor.
> 
> The other point is that you seem to be going it alone which is fine for your future customers but what is FIAT doing about this matter other than the fact that they are now saying that their long awaited fix does not work and that the dealers will not be doing any more repairs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The two holes are really small in the well at the extreme edge of the scuttle.Have I missed something when did Fiat say their fix doesnt work?Peter.
Click to expand...

Peter, sorry to be a wet Peugeot but here are a couple of links, one of them is mine and the text is taken from the Fiat Forum.

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-34317-days0-orderasc-615.html
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-34317-days0-orderasc-585.html


----------



## johnc

*Post infomation*

Peter, the other posting was by ritariviera181
Regards
JohnC

PS, Peter, in my next life (there is not much left of this one) I will buy a Swift Motorhome,


----------



## SwiftGroup

Autoquest said:


> Peter - The slide you sent me is still working perfectly and takes away any water that manages to get through the 'seal' but I found I needed to seal up the edges of the bonnet as well due to most of my ingress coming in from the sides - I used a thick white weatherstrip foam affixed to the underside of the bonnet and it works a treat.
> 
> Can I ask what you are attaching your extra tubing to? ie: Do you have an insert of some sort attached to the scuttle?


Yes but they are not perfect.I am going to make up some kits to send out to those who want to try them.We seal the windscreen trim along its full length right upto where it ends and ensure there is enough sealant pumped into the the channel formed between the windsreen edge and the steal pillar.Peter.


----------



## SwiftGroup

geraldandannie said:


> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> it stops just about all the water entering the engine compartment.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh dear. Despite all that work, it stops "just about all the water". This is such a shame.
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

Gerald,I am being conservative it does do the job.Peter.


----------



## 107708

*Re: re water ingress*



ritariviera181 said:


> Hi all
> I have had my m/home booked in for fix this week, and have just received a call from fiat to say the fix is NOT working so the fiat dealer has refused to carry out any more fixes at the moment.
> Thought you would like to Know
> Andrew


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Post infomation*



johnc said:


> Peter, the other posting was by ritariviera181
> Regards
> JohnC
> 
> PS, Peter, in my next life (there is not much left of this one) I will buy a Swift Motorhome,


I will check tomorrow with Fiat.Peter.


----------



## 104869

Hi Andrew (ritariviera181)
here .
After my last message here re having fix cancled by fiat dealer. Because quote they say the fix does not work! I have received a questionnaire asking if I was satisfied with the repair and service received by the dealership? I can not print my reply. But to say WHAT ....ING WORK.
Night for now
Thanks Andrew


----------



## Rapide561

*Scuttle*



SwiftGroup said:


> grahamw said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi All
> 
> It doesn't surprise me to hear that Fiat may well be having second thoughts about the fix based on evidence of fixes done so far. At best their solution can only be considered as expedient. Gluing the scuttle to the windscreen is no way to build a sound vehicle. Enlarging small drainholes which still drain into the engine bay is no solution. A complete redesign of the scuttle and its replacement on all existing vehicles is what is required. Bodged fixes will do nothing for the second hand value of our motorhomes nor for the sale of new Fiat based motorhomes.
> 
> [email protected] outlined to us several modification that his company wish to make over and above those that Fiat are implementing ie the drainage tubes to the enlarged small drainholes and a new drainhole in the scuttle channel on the nearside of the vehicle. I'm sure part of the purpose of his last meeting with Fiat was to gain their approval for this. Fiat must surely have seen after that meeting with Peter how short of the mark their solution fell.
> 
> Meanwhile I've got my vehicle ducktaped across the windscreen, which solves most of the problem temporarily, and am awaiting urgently news of a complete redesign of the scuttle and its availability to us long suffering Fiat motorhomers.
> 
> Graham
> 
> 
> 
> We ran our first version on Friday ie enlarging the two holes at either side near the wipers and connecting a down pipe we also have drilled a hole on the nside of the scuttle and fitted another down pipe to drain the water when it flows to the nside, coupled with sealing the joint and windscreen trim it stops just about all the water entering the engine compartment.Our problem now is to find suitable conectors but it will only ever be a bit of a bodge.Fiat will be sending hopefully this week a small batch of 3litre covers which we will fit and report back.I will send Fiat pictures of what we have done.Peter.
Click to expand...

Peter

I have a long rubber pipe (really???) running from bemeath the windscreen to somewhere else. Did Swift fit that do you know?

Russell


----------



## sennen523

*FIAT RECALLS.*

Hello All,
My MH on a FIAT X2/50 2.3 was booked into a FIAT dealership (50 miles) this week for the now famous *recall* work.
I have just checked with them on what exactly they will be doing on RECALL No. 5221. ALL THEY HAVE BEEN INSTRUCTED TO DO, IS:
CLEAN UP INJECTOR HEAD AND TREAT WITH A SUBSTANCE SIMILAR TO WAXOYL. No work is authorised for sealing the scuttle and fitting an engine cover.
I have consequently cancelled.
FIAT ARE AN ABSOLUTE DISGRACE CONCERNING THIS, no wonder members on this forum are so p----d off.
Thanks All.
Sennen523.


----------



## Rapide561

*Re: FIAT RECALLS.*



sennen523 said:


> Hello All,
> My MH on a FIAT X2/50 2.3 was booked into a FIAT dealership (50 miles) this week for the now famous *recall* work.
> I have just checked with them on what exactly they will be doing on RECALL No. 5221. ALL THEY HAVE BEEN INSTRUCTED TO DO, IS:
> CLEAN UP INJECTOR HEAD AND TREAT WITH A SUBSTANCE SIMILAR TO WAXOYL. No work is authorised for sealing the scuttle and fitting an engine cover.
> I have consequently cancelled.
> FIAT ARE AN ABSOLUTE DISGRACE CONCERNING THIS, no wonder members on this forum are so p----d off.
> Thanks All.
> Sennen523.


Hi

I would have the work done. Whilst it is not a complete resolution, it is a step forward.

I had my rust removed last week and it looks better. In theory, with the Waxoyl in place, it should not reform.

As it is such a lovely day, I am going to do a water can test and see just what is going where.

Russell


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Scuttle*



Rapide561 said:


> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grahamw said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi All
> 
> It doesn't surprise me to hear that Fiat may well be having second thoughts about the fix based on evidence of fixes done so far. At best their solution can only be considered as expedient. Gluing the scuttle to the windscreen is no way to build a sound vehicle. Enlarging small drainholes which still drain into the engine bay is no solution. A complete redesign of the scuttle and its replacement on all existing vehicles is what is required. Bodged fixes will do nothing for the second hand value of our motorhomes nor for the sale of new Fiat based motorhomes.
> 
> [email protected] outlined to us several modification that his company wish to make over and above those that Fiat are implementing ie the drainage tubes to the enlarged small drainholes and a new drainhole in the scuttle channel on the nearside of the vehicle. I'm sure part of the purpose of his last meeting with Fiat was to gain their approval for this. Fiat must surely have seen after that meeting with Peter how short of the mark their solution fell.
> 
> Meanwhile I've got my vehicle ducktaped across the windscreen, which solves most of the problem temporarily, and am awaiting urgently news of a complete redesign of the scuttle and its availability to us long suffering Fiat motorhomers.
> 
> Graham
> 
> 
> 
> We ran our first version on Friday ie enlarging the two holes at either side near the wipers and connecting a down pipe we also have drilled a hole on the nside of the scuttle and fitted another down pipe to drain the water when it flows to the nside, coupled with sealing the joint and windscreen trim it stops just about all the water entering the engine compartment.Our problem now is to find suitable conectors but it will only ever be a bit of a bodge.Fiat will be sending hopefully this week a small batch of 3litre covers which we will fit and report back.I will send Fiat pictures of what we have done.Peter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Peter
> 
> I have a long rubber pipe (really???) running from bemeath the windscreen to somewhere else. Did Swift fit that do you know?
> 
> Russell
Click to expand...

Russell,because you have a LHD the drain tube is to the right of the joint whereas on RHD vehicles it is on the left hand side looking at the vehicle.Peter.


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: cANT FIND THE SMALL HOLES*



johnc said:


> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grahamw said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi All
> 
> It doesn't surprise me to hear that Fiat may well be having second thoughts about the fix based on evidence of fixes done so far. At best their solution can only be considered as expedient. Gluing the scuttle to the windscreen is no way to build a sound vehicle. Enlarging small drainholes which still drain into the engine bay is no solution. A complete redesign of the scuttle and its replacement on all existing vehicles is what is required. Bodged fixes will do nothing for the second hand value of our motorhomes nor for the sale of new Fiat based motorhomes.
> 
> [email protected] outlined to us several modification that his company wish to make over and above those that Fiat are implementing ie the drainage tubes to the enlarged small drainholes and a new drainhole in the scuttle channel on the nearside of the vehicle. I'm sure part of the purpose of his last meeting with Fiat was to gain their approval for this. Fiat must surely have seen after that meeting with Peter how short of the mark their solution fell.
> 
> Meanwhile I've got my vehicle ducktaped across the windscreen, which solves most of the problem temporarily, and am awaiting urgently news of a complete redesign of the scuttle and its availability to us long suffering Fiat motorhomers.
> 
> Graham
> 
> 
> 
> We ran our first version on Friday ie enlarging the two holes at either side near the wipers and connecting a down pipe we also have drilled a hole on the nside of the scuttle and fitted another down pipe to drain the water when it flows to the nside, coupled with sealing the joint and windscreen trim it stops just about all the water entering the engine compartment.Our problem now is to find suitable conectors but it will only ever be a bit of a bodge.Fiat will be sending hopefully this week a small batch of 3litre covers which we will fit and report back.I will send Fiat pictures of what we have done.Peter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Peter, sorry to bother you but I just cannot find the small holes near the windscreen wipers. I will be getting the van under cover tomorrow night to have a good look as the drivers side wiper arm is under a permanent puddle of water so there will be ingress into the mechanics of the wiper motor.
> 
> The other point is that you seem to be going it alone which is fine for your future customers but what is FIAT doing about this matter other than the fact that they are now saying that their long awaited fix does not work and that the dealers will not be doing any more repairs.
Click to expand...

John,did you find your holes??? I have spoken to Fiat and are proceeding with the resealing, the problem they have is that they havent enough primer for doing all the reseals at the moment!!!Peter.


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: Scuttle*



Rapide561 said:


> I have a long rubber pipe (really???) running from bemeath the windscreen to somewhere else. Did Swift fit that do you know?





SwiftGroup said:


> Russell,because you have a LHD the drain tube is to the right of the joint whereas on RHD vehicles it is on the left hand side looking at the vehicle.Peter.


So was that one of the Swift modifications, Peter? And are Fiat approving these modifications? Or are you going ahead anyway?

Gerald


----------



## SwiftGroup

*Re: Scuttle*



geraldandannie said:


> Rapide561 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a long rubber pipe (really???) running from bemeath the windscreen to somewhere else. Did Swift fit that do you know?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> Russell,because you have a LHD the drain tube is to the right of the joint whereas on RHD vehicles it is on the left hand side looking at the vehicle.Peter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So was that one of the Swift modifications, Peter? And are Fiat approving these modifications? Or are you going ahead anyway?
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

Sorry Gerald,its all a bit manic at the moment as I have been out of the office allday so I am on catch up! I should have said in my answer to Russell that it was not a Swift mod it is the standard drain pipe fitted to LHD vehicles.We have for some time now been sealing all our motorhomes along the bottom of the screen and the centre joint.I cannot be certain it is a permanant fix because I dont know what extreme temperatures will do to the silicone seal but our mobile service van still looks good!Peter.


----------



## 108138

Good news all , we at Chelston have been talking to fiat today and they are happy for us to post any technical information that is relevant ie recalls ect on the forum. 
Martyn leaf our service centre manager is presently compiling a short list , watch this space over the next few days.


Tom lower


----------



## 1happy

Hi Chelston.
Welcome to the forum  
Not only will I watch this space, I will be glued to it :wink: 
Regards C


----------



## 104869

I wonder does any one have a picture of the drainage holes at the edge of the scuttle? I have looked closer at mine and found that there is on the off side of the scuttle a large but unmodified hole ( this is in the moulding of the scuttle) underneath this it is connected to a pipe that drains the water down past the engine and on to the flour.
My leaks only come from the centre where it joins.
Thank you Andrew


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hello

Chelston - I am sure your input will prove invaluable.

I did the watering can test under very controlled conditions.

The scuttle area - the centre point where the two scuttles meet - is sealed with some black sticky stuff. Pouring water in this area only, I found that the area was fairly water tight. A few drips dribbled through and went down my water slide. The bonnet was open for the test so I could see what was going where.

Again with the bonnet open, I poured water over the windscreen. This water congregated in my gutter and then drained down the long rubber pipe towards the floor. The water comes out of the pipe and drips over various components - however - these components are near ground level and it is assumed therefore that such components are "used to getting wet" as a result of spray etc. The engine deaprtment was still dry.

Now I closed the bonnet and repeated the test - but only with a jug full of water. Most of the water runs off the bonnet and to the floor. Some however dripped through the air vents. When I opened the bonnet, the water had dripped on to the cam. In theory then, a cover over the cam should prevent this, but holding that cover in place could be a whole new ball game.

The scuttle joining place however, whilst sealed, is already showing signs of coming apart. I suspect it will need resealing.

In the short term, with silver screen covers on - although I would prefer the longer length ones like Gerald uses, the damage should be limited during times of rainfall.

Only time will tell I suppose and I am under the impression that the engine cover is available mid November - well we are almost there!

Standing by

Russell

PS - Special message to Chelston. I met a dog today in need of a new home - he was called Chelston.


----------



## zulurita

Thats good Tom.

However after you and Martyn assured me that my new motorhome would have the necessary FIX on collection (I did collect it Nov2nd/3rd) this was not so.

I looked at the engine on the Thursday when I arrived and the chaps working of my new motorhome said all my Fiat recalls had been completed!

However there was NO engine cover, the drain hole hadn't been enlarged and the WINDSCREEN scuttle two halves were about 1/2 inch apart!!! The 1/2 inch gap of the 2 halves of the windscreen scuttle was pointed out to Martyn when I came to view the motorhome in October!!! So I was surprised to be told by the chaps at the service centre that ALL Fiat works had been completed!

Part of the FIX is supposed to include a longer water slide plate (as seen at the NEC and told about by a Fiat suited chap) this I don't think has been done on my new motorhome.

After my having a word with the chaps a cover was put on over the injectors and the windscreen scuttle two halves have been joined together and sealed, also one drain hole was enlarged. BUT the sealed join is not effective as water collects centrally and I could see water dripping from the foam under the windsrcreen scuttle join. There was a pool of water by the central join and no where for it to drain except by this join. Fiats fix I believe also included extra sealing behind windscreen scuttle where it parts from the windscreen. I was told this also couldn't be done. 

Also what is happenning about the water leaking from the air intake, rain water collects here and on openning the bonnet cascades out into the engine bay.

I have today called into the service centre on my way home and the motorhome is booked in for Tues 20th Nov But I am not happy to be coming back for this to STILL be sorted when I was promised it would be sorted on collection.

All that apart, I feel that the Auto-Trail side of things is very good and we have enjoyed our few days away trying out the new motorhome.


----------



## Rapide561

*Scuttles*



ritariviera181 said:


> I wonder does any one have a picture of the drainage holes at the edge of the scuttle? I have looked closer at mine and found that there is on the off side of the scuttle a large but unmodified hole ( this is in the moulding of the scuttle) underneath this it is connected to a pipe that drains the water down past the engine and on to the flour.
> My leaks only come from the centre where it joins.
> Thank you Andrew


Andrew

I cannot find my drain holes either - the only one I can see is the large one in the middle - about the diameter of a 10 pence coin - with the rubber pipe attached.

Russell


----------



## Glengyle

Russell, the small drain holes (3 or 4mm diameter) are in the recess at each end of the scuttle.

Rita, "the windscreen scuttle two halves have been joined together and sealed, also one drain hole was enlarged. BUT the sealed join is not effective as water collects centrally and I could see water dripping from the foam under the windsrcreen scuttle join"

I have the same problem with the central join on my scuttle after sealing by Fiat - it still leaks slightly. Many others have also metioned this problem after sealing. As was suggested months ago the solution may be for Fiat to fit self tapping screws as well as sealing to ensure a water-tight central scuttle joint, but maybe they are not aware of this. I can see us still talking about this same problem in 6 months time.


----------



## Rapide561

*Scuttles*

Hi

I have had a closer look - I have a small hole on my passenger side - but just a large puddle of water on the left! Time to get a hole made I think.

Russell


----------



## Glengyle

"I have a small hole on my passenger side - but just a large puddle of water on the left!"

It may well be that the left hole is blocked Russell, I'm sure some people have had that problem.


----------



## SwiftGroup

Glengyle said:


> "I have a small hole on my passenger side - but just a large puddle of water on the left!"
> 
> It may well be that the left hole is blocked Russell, I'm sure some people have had that problem.


If you put a small split pin in the hole that stops it blocking up completely.Peter.


----------



## Glengyle

Peter, do you know if Fiat intend a fix for the two small drainage holes? It looks to me as if this is the easiest of the water problems to address, by fitting drainage tubes as you have done at Swift. If Fiat are not fixing these holes is it possible to have your fix applied by my local Swift Motorhome dealer without invalidating the Fiat warranty?


----------



## Rapide561

*Little holes*

I shall have a closer look in daylight, and get a tiny screw driver to have a poke about.

Russell


----------



## 108138

zulurita said:


> Thats good Tom.
> 
> However after you and Martyn assured me that my new motorhome would have the necessary FIX on collection (I did collect it Nov2nd/3rd) this was not so.
> 
> I looked at the engine on the Thursday when I arrived and the chaps working of my new motorhome said all my Fiat recalls had been completed!
> 
> However there was NO engine cover, the drain hole hadn't been enlarged and the WINDSCREEN scuttle two halves were about 1/2 inch apart!!! The 1/2 inch gap of the 2 halves of the windscreen scuttle was pointed out to Martyn when I came to view the motorhome in October!!! So I was surprised to be told by the chaps at the service centre that ALL Fiat works had been completed!
> 
> Part of the FIX is supposed to include a longer water slide plate (as seen at the NEC and told about by a Fiat suited chap) this I don't think has been done on my new motorhome.
> 
> After my having a word with the chaps a cover was put on over the injectors and the windscreen scuttle two halves have been joined together and sealed, also one drain hole was enlarged. BUT the sealed join is not effective as water collects centrally and I could see water dripping from the foam under the windsrcreen scuttle join. There was a pool of water by the central join and no where for it to drain except by this join. Fiats fix I believe also included extra sealing behind windscreen scuttle where it parts from the windscreen. I was told this also couldn't be done.
> 
> Also what is happenning about the water leaking from the air intake, rain water collects here and on openning the bonnet cascades out into the engine bay.
> 
> I have today called into the service centre on my way home and the motorhome is booked in for Tues 20th Nov But I am not happy to be coming back for this to STILL be sorted when I was promised it would be sorted on collection.
> 
> All that apart, I feel that the Auto-Trail side of things is very good and we have enjoyed our few days away trying out the new motorhome.


Good morning Rita,
I have just read your reply and to say that I am disapointed is an understatement. Firstly I was relieved that you had taken advantage of our overnight camping facility for a few days which gave us the opportunity to take care of the neccessary recalls. It seems that having read the forum that there is still a huge confusion over what Fiat have agreed to undertake and what owners are expecting. Martyn who is unfortunately out of the office today will be telephoning you tommorrow morning to discuss your individual case, however he will also be posting on the forum tommorrow a clarification statement on this issue.
Once any owners have read this statement and feel that they would still like to discuss their individual case, I would request that they PM me with a contact telephone number and I will arrange for one of our Fiat technicians to contact them direct. 
If I can be of any further assistance please dont hesitate to contact me direct.

Tom Lower


----------



## MikeH

*fiat water ingress*

Hi. Just posted with this message three photos. Two showing location of the two outer holes in the scuttle, screwdriver in the holes. The third is of gap along side of bonnet where water is pouring in over the electrics, there is no seal at all along this edge. When opening the bonnet this morning the fuse box was very wet and this has come down the side of the bonnet.Someone did mention recently that they had sealed theirs' with draught stop type tape. I think this is something else for Fiat to be looking into.
My scuttle is sealed with gaffer tape and seems to be holding out, The air intake on the bonnet, I drilled a small hole in this and when opening the bonnet there is only a dribble of water dropping down, and it only goes onto the hoses below.
Hope the photos help.
MikeH


----------



## Rapide561

*Holes*

Hi

Definitely one a hole on the passenger side on mine. I had a really good look around and also poked about with a skewer. A large puddle on the drivers side also confirmed the theory.

Cured now.

Russell


----------



## whitefoot

Hi this is my first post I have read most of the above and I am still waiting for repairs to be done.
I have chased up both Peugeot and a Peugeot dealer many times,today received an e-mail from a Tim McCann at Peugeot which says there is no engine cover only an ABS pump cover. :evil: 
Looking back in this tread there pictures of this which I have now sent to Peugeot.
I would now reject this van but from what I have read above that looks like a very time consuming and expensive route.


----------



## 104869

RE Photo of drainage holes.
This is the drainage hole on my 2.3 ltr multijet offside it takes all the water from the windscreen.
The near side has just the small hole and does very little. 
Am I right in thinking that all these scuttles are different mine still leaks in the centre join.


----------



## 107476

zulurita said:


> Part of the FIX is supposed to include a longer water slide plate (as seen at the NEC and told about by a Fiat suited chap) this I don't think has been done on my new motorhome.
> 
> .


If Fiat had an engine on show at the NEC did anyone take a pic of it to show how it should be done " properly :wink: "

Did it have the engine cover on display ??

jack :wink:


----------



## Glengyle

There's been a lot of talk about "covers" and "waterslides". There would be no need for these parts if a competent sealing/drainage job is carried out.


----------



## SwiftGroup

Glengyle said:


> Peter, do you know if Fiat intend a fix for the two small drainage holes? It looks to me as if this is the easiest of the water problems to address, by fitting drainage tubes as you have done at Swift. If Fiat are not fixing these holes is it possible to have your fix applied by my local Swift Motorhome dealer without invalidating the Fiat warranty?


Well they have looked and advised on what we are doing but I dont know if they intend to follow as they dont see that as a problem.It would not invalidate your warranty so I am sure we cam arrange for your dealer to do the fix.I am in the process of getting some kits made up when I have done that I will contact you to see what you would like to do.Peter.


----------



## zulurita

Jack,

I did see a cover over injectors on the 2.3 multijet 130 at the NEC also the enlarged hole and new water slide plate.I didn't get a photo of the enlarged hole. I did take a photo of the join but it doesn't really show much other than the join.


----------



## zulurita

I must apologise Tom as I may have the new water slide although I was expecting a longer one. I had seen a photo somewhere and it seemed longer but looking at the photo I took at the NEC it does appear to be the same.

Apart from the Fiat side of things we, Judy and I thank you for your hospitality whilst we were waiting for our new motorhome especially the loan of a car on Friday. We are also very grateful for the hard work done by the men in getting the motorhome ready for us over the Thurs and Fri.


----------



## carolgavin

Oh well by my reckoning only another 2weeks (yesterday) to go before recall is on VOSA website and us Purilegeot owners might actually have some concrete info about what is happening to our vans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually I may have a VOSA announcement party anyone wanna come???


----------



## geraldandannie

carolgavin said:


> Actually I may have a VOSA announcement party anyone wanna come???


Even though it's a long way, we'd love to come ... as long as you can guarantee it's not going to rain on the way (for obvious reasons  )

Gerald


----------



## Polo

Hi Carol. You could count us in on that one!!!! The mileage would be high but it would be worth it for us all to have a PEUGEOT murdering conflab.


----------



## SwiftGroup

whitefoot said:


> Hi this is my first post I have read most of the above and I am still waiting for repairs to be done.
> I have chased up both Peugeot and a Peugeot dealer many times,today received an e-mail from a Tim McCann at Peugeot which says there is no engine cover only an ABS pump cover. :evil:
> Looking back in this tread there pictures of this which I have now sent to Peugeot.
> I would now reject this van but from what I have read above that looks like a very time consuming and expensive route.


We have spoken to Peugeot today and there is a meeting on Thursday and the supply of the covers will be discussed we pointed out Fiat are retro fitting them.Peter.


----------



## Telbell

> The new Ducato complies 100% with this certification procedure and is not therefore affected by any short or long term technical or operational risk associated with water infiltration into the engine compartment . The presence of water on the injector bodies was not considered critical because it is a surface effect that does not cause any operational problems to the engine."


I had some experience of this Fit For Purpose issue some years ago -nothing to do with Motorhomes

Fit For Purpose requires that the goods shall be of "Satisfactory Quality" and "Satisfactory Quality", I was told by Trading Standards, covers minor and cosmetic defects as well as substantial problems.

The way I see it there's no way that Fiat, Peugeot or Citroen could ever claim that that "Scuttlegate" problem is only "cosmetic" and therefore not covered by Fit For Purpose because the vehicle still "works" despite the ingress and the rust.

For what it's worth.


----------



## DABurleigh

I agree. People successfully reject cars because of poor paint finish. Rusty injectors strike this layman as more significant.

Dave


----------



## 1happy

*Locked Fiat Peugeot "Scuttlegate" thread*

Hi All.
I have been asked to add the below link to the 1st page of this thread.
Which I have done.
There are some interesting discusions re the Fiat/Peugeot "scuttlegate" issue & the thread is now locked!
I have linked here also so that interested parties can have a quick check of the afore mentioned discussion.

*Fiat bodge up for water ingress does not work*
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-35991.html

regards C


----------



## geraldandannie

Here's a list of 'recalls' (or whatever they're called) which apply to the X2/50 as I understand them:

1. Water ingress - clean and protect, reseal as necessary. 
2. (5219) Steering - check rack and grease
3. (5247) Injection - apply new flash programme
4. Check diff and gearbox housing as a machining error can cause bearing failure (3 ltr engine only).
5. wiper motor/starter/abs - cover
6. (5221) injectors - corrosion inhibitor/protection
7. (5251) pipe - check location in clip

I was wandering around the Camping Car Infos website, and came across this list:

voici la liste actuelle provisoire concernant les rappels:

*5219 graissage cremaillere direction*
5220 capot protection demarreur _(STARTER COVER)_
*5221 nettoyage culasse et injecteurs*
5222 capot protection ABS _(ABS COVER)_
5223 protection moteur essuie-glace _(WIPER MOTOR PROTECTION)_
5242 modification plaquette identifcation ( VIN ) _(MODIFY VIN PLATE)_
5169 controle reservoir go _(CHECK RESERVOIR??)_
5209 controle differentiel _(CHECK DIFF)_
5120 controle durite eau _(CHECK WATER HOSE)_

:: weblink ::

The two bold ones were quoted previously. I've provided rough translations for those numbers new to us. Interesting to note they don't have 5247 or 5251 - they may have been added more recently.

It may be worth asking Fiat service agents about these other numbers if you're arranging the work? They may apply only to LHD vehicles, or French chassis. Worth the question, though.

I'll try to get check more of the posts tomorrow to see if there's more updates. They're showing the injector covers in some posts.

P.S. :: This :: is the translation site I used - it seemed to do a pretty good job of the technical words.

Gerald


----------



## 1happy

*Eureka moment !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Hi Gerald.
Thankyou for the* brilliant *post !
I have been trying to sleep for over an hour and then i had a EUREKA! moment  
Your posting which appeared during my failed attempt to sleep serves to consolidate my thinking......thankyou....
*Watch this space....it may take some time......all will become clear by the morning.*
Regards Catherine

Edit/addition... :idea: 
Just realised this may take some time as a lot of research & reading of old threads & the petition to do!


----------



## Telbell

Catherine/Gerald:
Thank you *Both* for these Posts (and everything else!)
Although I have the 05 Ducato and therefore not affected by these issues I am looking to the future and have printed off the Posts "for future reference".

In particular the French extract may be useful if I go down the "Fleurette" route- optional base vehicles include Fiat and Citroen!


----------



## geraldandannie

Thanks, guys/ I was just browsing through old favourites last night, and came across the forum.

I've just registered over there, and I'll be looking through the forums to see if there's any more useful information. In addition, I'll try to get some 2-way dialogue going - I'm sure both groups can help each other over this. The more the merrier!

Gerald


----------



## Zebedee

Telbell said:


> Catherine/Gerald:
> Thank you *Both* for these Posts (and everything else!)
> Although I have the 05 Ducato and therefore not affected by these issues I am looking to the future and have printed off the Posts "for future reference".
> 
> In particular the French extract may be useful if I go down the "Fleurette" route- optional base vehicles include Fiat and Citroen!


As has been said before Tel, don't let these problems put you off the new chassis. It's a big improvement on the old model, especially the driving position if you are particularly tall or short. I'm tall (6' 3") and the difference in comfort and the reduction in fatigue is great. I don't look quite so much like Quasimodo after a long journey for a start!

Cheers


----------



## Briarose

Hi my Husband has just had a look and we have this problem too.


----------



## Telbell

Hi Zebedee- Hmm-still not convinced I'm afraid: NINE recalls?? :roll: If I buy from a dealer who's at the other end of the country (and I may have no option) I don't want to be travelling back regularly to have it sorted.

I fully understand that the X2/50 is a better drive but there seems to be quite a few forum members who aren't doing much driving in them at the moment


----------



## geraldandannie

Telbell said:


> I fully understand that the X2/50 is a better drive but there seems to be quite a few forum members who aren't doing much driving in them at the moment


You have a point. I'm not going to book mine in for the work to be done (I have longline silver screens when it's at home and on site which protect it for now) until I'm sure everything is in stock (including the injector cover). We work full time, and it's going to be a pain to take it to the service agent which is about an hour away. As far as I can tell at the moment, the actual work should take no more than a day to complete.

Gerald


----------



## Briarose

Hi we have just rang Brownhills and they have said they will sort it this Fri along with another two recalls on our vehicle.


----------



## Rapide561

*Brownhills and Fiat*



Briarose said:


> Hi we have just rang Brownhills and they have said they will sort it this Fri along with another two recalls on our vehicle.


Hi

Are Brownhills an authorised Fiat agent in respect of the recalls? They do not appear in the Fiat service guide, or are they "doing their own thing with it"?

Russell


----------



## Jodiedog

I discovered my MH had the water ingress about 3 mths ago.

1) I went to the Fiat Stand at the NEC

2) Fiat's intended action was explained to me & a note of my chassis no. was taken.

3) I heard nothing for a couple of weeks, so I contacted Fiat Italy. They gave me a ref. no. & told me the name of the person in the Slough Office who would be dealing with my case.

4) I contacted her, confirmed what would be done (as per the Fiat 'fix').
I booked it in with my local Fiat main dealer.

5) I contacted Slough again to ask them to liaise with the dealer as to what exactly was to be done.

6) The vehicle was in for 3 days & the work was done as per the 'fix' (including the cover over the injectors)

7) I have given it a water-test & it seems OK.
The Dealer told me to take it back if any leaks reoccur.

Rgds,
Jodiedog


----------



## safariboy

This looks excellent. It would be very helpful if you could state which engine you have and add some photos if you have time.

Thanks.

Safariboy


----------



## Jodiedog

Sorry -I haven't got photos but can take some.

The mechanic said that he had to do the mastic job 3 times before he managed to get it leak-free.
Also, after he had applied the mastic at the centre where the two sides join, he found it necessary to use a screw to hold it all together. But the job looks professional & I am well satisfied.

Photos wouldn't really show anything because, apart from the screw & the cover over the injectors, it looks exactly the same.

Rgds,
Jodiedog


----------



## Jodiedog

Ref above - it is the 130 bhp engine

Jodiedog


----------



## Briarose

*Re: Brownhills and Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Briarose said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi we have just rang Brownhills and they have said they will sort it this Fri along with another two recalls on our vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Are Brownhills an authorised Fiat agent in respect of the recalls? They do not appear in the Fiat service guide, or are they "doing their own thing with it"?
> 
> Russell
Click to expand...

Hi Russell

My Husband had rang the number given on the beginning of this thread...........to be honest he didn't get much help from them apart from contact your dealer etc etc.

He rang Brownhills who were immediately aware of the recalls and said in our case it was 3 and that he would book it in, he also said he had the part in stock for the water ingress probs............he actually said we can do the repairs as we are Fiat dealers.............he actually went on to Fiat on the computor whilst on the phone.

I know my Friend (Sonesta had phoned Brownhills too before she left for Italy am going to text her now to ask what they said to her)

Do you think there might be a problem ?


----------



## Telbell

Jodiedog-good to hear you've had your scuttle fixed. What about the other problems experienced by X2/50 users??


----------



## Glengyle

Good to hear your scuttle has been successfully sealed Jodiedog.

Fiat take note:

"The mechanic said that he had to do the mastic job 3 times before he managed to get it leak-free. 
Also, after he had applied the mastic at the centre where the two sides join, *he found it necessary to use a screw to hold it all together*. But the job looks professional & I am well satisfied."


----------



## 96299

Jodiedog said:


> I discovered my MH had the water ingress about 3 mths ago.
> 
> 1) I went to the Fiat Stand at the NEC
> 
> 2) Fiat's intended action was explained to me & a note of my chassis no. was taken.
> 
> 3) I heard nothing for a couple of weeks, so I contacted Fiat Italy. They gave me a ref. no. & told me the name of the person in the Slough Office who would be dealing with my case.
> 
> 4) I contacted her, confirmed what would be done (as per the Fiat 'fix').
> I booked it in with my local Fiat main dealer.
> 
> 5) I contacted Slough again to ask them to liaise with the dealer as to what exactly was to be done.
> 
> 6) The vehicle was in for 3 days & the work was done as per the 'fix' (including the cover over the injectors)
> 
> 7) I have given it a water-test & it seems OK.
> The Dealer told me to take it back if any leaks reoccur.
> 
> Rgds,
> Jodiedog


I`m really pleased that your fix is working for you.However,How long will it last is the million dollar question? Mastics,sealants-call them what you will,will surely perish in time as the plastic scuttle expands and contracts with heat and cold,and then where will we be.? I know where...back and forward to the dealers to get a fix every now and then.This whole saga just seems like a right old bodge up to me,like something you would see on rogue traders..now theres a thought. 

Sorry to be a damp squid but , this is how I see it. 

steve


----------



## geraldandannie

I know my two halves were further apart after I made the 200 mile journey home than they were at the dealer's. One-piece scuttle anyone?

Incidentally, I'm in the process of setting up an online spreadsheet, so we can log in to enter our details into columns under the headings suggested by Catherine. This should make it easy to enter and collate our information.

Login details tomorrow am, hopefully. I'm just trying to find a way to share the spreadsheet without too much logging in and stuff.

Gerald


----------



## 96299

Good on you Gerald.That would make things nice and easy.  

steve


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## timbop37

I have a Compass 100 with a Peugeot Boxer base which I picked up on Friday (9th Nov). Although the scuttle appears reasonably sealed there is some slight evidence of water ingress although it passed the bucket test ok.

However, I emailed my local Peugeot dealer (Liverpool), explaining my situation and concerns and within an hour he rang me at home for the VIN. He said this was a well known problem and his dealership was aware of it. He got back to me the same day to say he had ordered a "bonding kit" and would arrange a day for the fix to be implemented. Great service but I hope it works.

Has anyone else got experience of this bonding kit?

Regards

Tim


----------



## 1happy

*Online Speadsheet - Database*



geraldandannie said:


> Incidentally, I'm in the process of setting up an online spreadsheet, so we can log in to enter our details into columns under the headings suggested by Catherine. This should make it easy to enter and collate our information.
> Login details tomorrow am, hopefully. I'm just trying to find a way to share the spreadsheet without too much logging in and stuff.
> 
> Gerald


Hi Gerald.
You are a star  
I was struggling on how best to manage the database!
I had already arranged one other member to monitor the results with me & was in the process of asking another!
It would have involved sharing my log on details with the two members & extra work for all of us!
Your way is better, simpler for all & will definitely get a better response.
*Thankyou * 
 
regards Catherine


----------



## Grizzly

geraldandannie said:


> Incidentally, I'm in the process of setting up an online spreadsheet, so we can log in to enter our details into columns under the headings suggested by Catherine. This should make it easy to enter and collate our information.
> in and stuff.
> Gerald


Give the man a medal ! Well done Gerald, you are a star. This will be very useful.

Don't forget to add a column for "Wheel arch" for some Kontikis and Bessacarrs - subject to what Kath says later today. 

G


----------



## grahamw

Hi All

Just mentioned to a friend who does windscreen replacements about Fiat's solution of bonding the scuttle to the windscreen.

He was horrified to hear about this. In the event of a windscreen breakage he thought it would be just about impossible to clear all shattered glass fragments that would be stuck to the scuttle. They would probably require a replacement scuttle.

I think it begins to underline the nature of this bodge!

Graham


----------



## zulurita

Yes when I enquired about this aspect at my dealers the technician there also mentioned not being able to do this because of the need to replace the windscreen if it broke.


----------



## Zebedee

geraldandannie said:


> Incidentally, I'm in the process of setting up an online spreadsheet, so we can log in to enter our details into columns under the headings suggested by Catherine. This should make it easy to enter and collate our information.
> Gerald


Hi Gerald

Ref: your spreadsheet, can I draw your attention to this. You probably won't want to include it as it's not a fault as such, but maybe a footnote to advise others who may think it is?

My leisure battery went so flat after only three weeks standing on the drive (without the hookup plugged in) that the touch-screen control panel was stone dead. I just rang our dealer and he confirmed that there isn't a fault as such, but these new-fangled panels drain the battery quite quickly. It appears that if their brand new vans have been in the yard for more than a couple of weeks they usually have to plug into the mains before they can even start the PDI checks.

Technological progress!!! Don't you just love it. :evil: :evil:

Cheers


----------



## hawkeye6007

*X2/50 Water problems*

I have followed this issue for sometime and some work has been done but still the water gets on to the engine.

My local Fiat dealer advised me today of recall 5248 but could not tell me what is involved. I spoke with Fiat on their freephone number and to my surprise then received a phone call from Fiat UK. They are still awaiting for this recall to be translated but seemed FAIRLY confident that sometime next week letters would be sent out to us unfortunate owners. I am advised that this will include the fitting of an engine cover.

I for one await this letter with great interest to see if it will bring this saga to a satisfactory conclusion.


----------



## Polo

Hi Gerald I can only endorse all that has been said in regard to a spread sheet. A great idea! 

As to following posts re windscreen and sealing to this - that was our first reaction to this suggestion. We believe our first fix (failed) was not sealed to the screen but to the bulkhead below. We will all get there sometime so that we can get on with enjoying our pasttime :!: :!: :roll:


----------



## ChelstonServiceCentr

Here at Chelston, we have successfully carried out several `modifications` to the windscreen/scuttle area to date.
In addition to this we have cleaned and treated the exposed aluminium parts of the engine previously exposed to
the water ingress.If anybody would like more information on this matter please send me a private message on the 
forum or email me at martyn.leaf AT teamchelston.co.uk.

I would also like to explain that every time a Fiat is booked into us (or indeed any Fiat Dealer) a chassis check
is carried out on the Fiat computer system. This shows start dates for the warranty and also any current recalls
or campaigns that are due to be carried out on that particular vehicle. Fiat do not notify customers of all 
campaigns as they are not safety related. If a recall is issued that is when the customer will be notified.

The current X250 Ducato modification does not include a plastic engine cover, however I have today emailed my
Fiat Zone Manager asking them to revisit this urgently.


Martyn Leaf
General Manager
Chelston Service Centre


----------



## johnc

*The saga continues.*

Sent an email to Peugeot today covering the following problems and was going to post it to 1Happy's new topic but it is now locked so have tacked it on to the end of the main thread.

To Peugeot Customer Care

SCUTTLE
A partial repair has been made by a Peugeot Dealer to the centre of the scuttle but this still leaves a slight weep at the centre of the scuttle and there is still a 6 mm hole over the electrics. If I block the hole with the van on a left hand camber, water builds up. 
There are also two very small drain holes which block up (see note on windscreen wiper) 
With reference to the "FIAT PEUGEOT FIX" I must comment that this is nothing less than a botch up as the method by which the seal has been effected will almost certainly cause problems if I ever need to have the windscreen replaced. I am also concerned over the longevity of the repair when it come s to the van sitting out in direct sunshine.

ENGINE COVER (lack of) 
It has been reported on the internet that FIAT are providing an engine cover, is this an admission of failure that the Scuttle FIX does not work. I would be interested to know Peugeots plans for this area.

ENGINE
The entire top of the aluminum cylinder head is covered in corrosion with rust stains near some of the bolts.

INJECTORS
The injectors are covered in rust which is described by Peugeot as cosmetic however my concern is that the injectors will prove impossible to remove due to electrolytic and corrosions processes. When I looked at the engine on a number of occasions, the injectors were actually in a puddle of water about 5 mm deep.

HIGH PRESSURE FUEL PUMP.
There is rust on the dome section of the HP unit and on other surrounding areas.

WINDSCREEN WIPER 
On either side of the scuttle (far left and far right) I have discovered two very small drain holes. The have become blocked up with the result that water gathers in the two outside pockets of the scuttle. The wiper arm on the driver's side is often immersed in water which is going to lead to premature failure. In addition, the actual wiper motor is showing signs of corrosion.

ELECTRICAL BOX
The electrical box was in a permanent shower due to water leaking in through the 6 mm hole. In the meantime I have covered the electrics with plastic film to stop water getting in

VENTILATION AIR INTAKE
This appears to leak water onto the engine.

ALTERNATOR
This is showing signs of corrosion

STARTER MOTOR
This is also showing signs of corrosion

ENGINE BATTERY.
I have one incidence of the battery being flat when the vehicle was not used for approx 3 weeks, is this normal? I have to say it is possible that the Motorhome battery switch may have been left on the "vehicle" battery rather than in the "off" position.

ENGINE CONTROL SYSTEM
The engine emission control system warning lamp (orange engine icon) came on when the outside temperature was - 3C. I read the manual and it recommended taking the van to a Peugeot dealer without delay so I decided to drive the van to my office and take the van over to Motorway Cars at Lunch time. After I had driven about a mile, I tried switching the engine off and back on. This resulted in the engine stuttering and causing the van to kangaroo. Stopped it again and the stuttering cleared and I was able to drive the 20 miles to work. The lamp stayed on the entire distance. When I got to work, I switched the engine off and then back on but the lamp was still illuminated. Tried again at lunch time and found that the lamp was now off.

On two occasions, the electronic odometer has started to flash but the fault has cleared when the vehicle has stopped.

REVERSING JUDDER
I have found it impossible to reverse the van up a slight incline without considerable juddering.

John C


----------



## Rapide561

*Chelston*

Chelston

Can I ask please what work you have done exactly?

I have had various covers fitted by a Fiat dealer - but can I ask what have you done to the scuttle? Have you sealed it? With what? Has it worked? Would it stand up to torrential rain or a pressure washter?

Thanks

Russell


----------



## 96299

*Re: Chelston*



Rapide561 said:


> Chelston
> 
> Can I ask please what work you have done exactly?
> 
> I have had various covers fitted by a Fiat dealer - but can I ask what have you done to the scuttle? Have you sealed it? With what? Has it worked? Would it stand up to torrential rain or a pressure washter?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Russell


And would it be easy to replace windscreen if needed.

steve


----------



## ChelstonServiceCentr

Russell

It has depended on the status of the existing scuttle when the vehicle is presented to us. We have stripped the lower half of the windscreen panels off completely and rebuilt giving a much closer fit but using minimum amounts of sealer.

I am sorry my answer is a little vague but these are the facts.

Martyn Leaf
Chelston Service Centre


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Chelston

Can I ask another? Sorry, I want my moneys worth!

My bonnet seems to be a key area for water ingress. The rain water drips into the air vents and then drops on to the cam. There is a photo somewhere on this thread. Have you any thoughts on this please?

Thanks

Russell

PS - did I mention there is a dog is a rescue place - called Chelston!


----------



## 107208

Bit off topic but still Fiat/bolero have posted recently about my various trips to Rockingham Fiat, went again to day 6th time in the last 3 months (I’m now on first name terms with all the staff wish I weren’t) .
Booked the MH in again to have a new condenser fitted and for them to try and sort out all the warning lights that keep coming on within the dash board , my last visit cost me £89 plus vat as the wiring on the body was found at fault (no revering lights), this time they had to bring in an specialist auto sparks who found yet more wiring problems on the body lights this time it cost me £63 plus vat (the break lights and the rear lights were connected together), Rockingham also spent a further 3 hrs on the wiring before calling the auto sparks, this is without my time, I would be interested to know if there is a method of re-coving this from Swift direct as these faults should have been found at the factory or at dealer PDI, any thoughts welcome 
Brent


----------



## johnc

*Man from *****glass said that the FIX was a bodge job.*



grahamw said:


> Hi All
> 
> Just mentioned to a friend who does windscreen replacements about Fiat's solution of bonding the scuttle to the windscreen.
> 
> He was horrified to hear about this. In the event of a windscreen breakage he thought it would be just about impossible to clear all shattered glass fragments that would be stuck to the scuttle. They would probably require a replacement scuttle.
> 
> I think it begins to underline the nature of this bodge!
> 
> Graham


Graham,

Got the exact same responce when a guy came to our factory to replace a windscreen on one of our pool cars. I happen to have my van in with me that day and showed him what had been done to try and seal the leak. He said that they would be left with the problem if they ever had to replace the windscreen if it did not seal. His further comment was that the manufactuere just wants a cheap fix and let others look after the problem in the future.

John C


----------



## 1happy

*"Scuttlegate" Database / Speadsheet coming soon...*

Hi All.
Talk about great minds think alike  
I started a thread yesterday about having a Database & at the same time Gerald was designing a spreadsheet for "scuttlegate" victims ...... 8O 
I am hoping my Database thread will now be deleted and we can concentrate on getting some answers 

I would like to thank Gerald for the spreadsheet as I was having nightmares on how to manage it..I had even arranged for another member to help me...
You know who you are....Carol :lol: ... Thanks sweetie.

*So please all "Scuttlegate" affected members take the time to fill in the spreadsheet when its ready.
Its imperative that we know what faults we suffering from.
even members who have had the "fixes" please still take part!!!
This is going to be very valuable information for us & the Newbies still joining our "Scuttlegate" ranks *  

Below is the afore mentioned post RE:- The need for a database  
*........................................................................................................*
Hi All.
*I think the time has come to get some solid information/database & this info is getting lost/watered down on other threads!*

Please forgive the ramblings of a "scuttlegate" insomniac, but last night I had a Eureka moment! 

I am truly sick of the runaround that we have been given & feel its time to do something constructive for the benefit of all afflicted !!

I have spent many hours wondering how best to do this & then today my mind was made up for me when I found out that *Fiat have cancelled my Warranty claim/reference numbers & now had to give me a new number!!!*

*I have noted there is 83,000 difference between the first number I was given in mid August & the number I was given today!*

I do not know why I have a new number, because the person authorised to discuss it was not available & you guessed it "will be emailed to ring me" :roll:










Also it has troubled me that "scuttlegate" disturbed some other members & I have tried to be a good & not start new threads(until this one!). 

Originally it might have seemed to some that we were only talking about a bit of "Water". 8O (But this has sadly grown into much more!)

Water pouring over our engines did not seem as "cosmetic" as the industry would have us believe & whilst trying not to take over the whole forum, we needed to discuss our experiences 

We bought our motorhome because my other half had a heart attack & we decided to live a little before we die a lot :!: Now even if we use our van we can't do so with any peace of mind!

Reading other members posts I realised we are not alone in having very personal reasons for feeling outrage at the inconvenience that this fiasco has brought! not to mention expense in phone calls, letters, fuel etc. :evil:

Because "scuttlegate" has gone on for so many months it is difficult to keep track & the threads have become disjointed.

*Therefore not only do we not know what faults each "sufferer" has, but also we don't know many of us there are ?*

*But you can bet your bottom dollar Fiat & Peugeot have a fair idea :roll: and they are not saying much are they ?* :idea:

So for the benefit of all affected can I ask you to consider taking a few minutes to do the following:-

*Help build a database! *

*The database needs the following information (or as much as any member feels comfortable with!) AND any additional facts contributors feel is applicable!*

*NB:-We are specifically talking about the NEW Fiat x250 & its triplet the New Peugeot Boxer (& also if there are any owners out there the Citroen Jumper?).*

1/ Make & Engine size! EG:- Fiat 2.3ltr/130 multijet or Peugeot ?
2/ Converter! EG:- Hymer ?
3/ Dealer & Depot! EG:- Liquid Motorhomes of landsend ?
4/ Collection date! EG:- 29th March 2007 ?
5/ Right hand drive or Left ?
6/ How long is your base vehicle warranty...2 or 3 years?

Below I quote Gerald's informative & well researched post, which demonstrates quite effectively how there is still no definitive list from the manufacturers of what needs to be done to the few base vehicle type's! Both Peugeot & Fiat !!



geraldandannie said:


> Here's a list of 'recalls' (or whatever they're called) which apply to the X2/50 as I understand them:
> 1. Water ingress - clean and protect, reseal as necessary.
> 2. (5219) Steering - check rack and grease
> 3. (5247) Injection - apply new flash programme
> 4. Check diff and gearbox housing as a machining error can cause bearing failure (3 ltr engine only).
> 5. wiper motor/starter/abs - cover
> 6. (5221) injectors - corrosion inhibitor/protection
> 7. (5251) pipe - check location in clip
> I was wandering around the Camping Car Infos website, and came across this list:
> voici la liste actuelle provisoire concernant les rappels:
> *5219 graissage cremaillere direction*
> 5220 capot protection demarreur _(STARTER COVER)_
> *5221 nettoyage culasse et injecteurs*
> 5222 capot protection ABS _(ABS COVER)_
> 5223 protection moteur essuie-glace _(WIPER MOTOR PROTECTION)_
> 5242 modification plaquette identifcation ( VIN ) _(MODIFY VIN PLATE)_
> 5169 controle reservoir go _(CHECK RESERVOIR??)_
> 5209 controle differentiel _(CHECK DIFF)_
> 5120 controle durite eau _(CHECK WATER HOSE)_
> :: weblink ::
> The two bold ones were quoted previously. I've provided rough translations for those numbers new to us. Interesting to note they don't have 5247 or 5251 - they may have been added more recently.
> It may be worth asking Fiat service agents about these other numbers if you're arranging the work? They may apply only to LHD vehicles, or French chassis. Worth the question, though.
> I'll try to get check more of the posts tomorrow to see if there's more updates. They're showing the injector covers in some posts.
> P.S. :: This :: is the translation site I used - it seemed to do a pretty good job of the technical words.
> Gerald


*ALSO we need to know have you experienced any of the following or anything else not mentioned, that you feel may be a fault with your base vehicle or has caused you concern ?*

*I have no wish to 'scaremonger' only to try & get to the bottom of what is a growing list of concerns it will be useful to know has anyone experienced any of the following?*

The Below seem to be common place ?

Have you got -
an engine cover & for which size engine?
Split in centre of scuttle
Window rubber fitting poorly
Small drainage holes either end of the scuttle blocking easily
air intake vent/grill/drain! allows water to collect & flood engine upon opening of bonnet
Any other areas of water ingress to engine area?
Rusty injectors
Rusty altenater
Any other areas of rust you would not expect to see on a vehicle so new?
Inaccurate warranty date IE:- Fiat date does not match the date you purchased the motorhome?

*Any problems (perhaps isolated occurrences) with the following?*

Poor / non existent radio reception when driving? (OK when engine turned off!)
Faulty starter motor (were there really 700 on back order in July?)
Gearbox?
ABS blocks / units covers?
Differential(mentioned in the french quote above & post number 319027!)
Steering
Brakes " Fiat Ducato recall bulletin xxxx, icing up of brake servo pipe " ?
Juddering in reverse
Knock / Thud noise upon starting the engine
Vehicle battery flattened (whilst stood) in only days or hours?
Water on the drive belt, slipping or squealing noise?
Fuse box damage or replacement?
"clouds of white smoke".......what happened next guys?
Water ingress into cab past windscreen / bodyseal ?
Alarm problems due to water leaking onto control unit ?

Have you had a "failed fix"

Has anyone cancelled an order for these vehicles?
(I know someone has reported cancelling an order for 14 works vans)

Has anyone had an independent engineers report?

Did anyone ever get contact by Fiat RE this a month ago ?? 
HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-314711.html#314711

Did anyone ever get the promised letter re "the Fiat fix announcement" on the 28th of September 
HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=34008

Also are Fiat now saying they will not attempt the scuttle fix anymore ?

I hope to compile a database/get some figures together!

I feel it is now important *after approx 9 months * to tackle these "issues" head on!!

NB:- Some of the above questions may seem strange, but are either from the threads or from the statements on the petition 
HERE>> http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot

Many thanks Catherine


----------



## Briarose

Hiya well ours is now at Brownhills who say that ours will be sorted out tomorrow................they seem quite confident I will let you know more once we get it back.


----------



## 1happy

Hi Briarose.
Thanks for the update & please don't forget to do the Spreadsheet when its ready 

Also forgot to say the petition is up to 167 signatures & if anyone hasn't signed yet & would like to do so 8) 
Its HERE>>
http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot
Regards C


----------



## Briarose

1happy said:


> Hi Briarose.
> Thanks for the update & please don't forget to do the Spreadsheet when its ready
> 
> Also forgot to say the petition is up to 167 signatures & if anyone hasn't signed yet & would like to do so 8)
> Its HERE>>
> http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot
> Regards C


No probs will do, I am pretty sure the guy at Brownhills has at some point mentioned having the part in 8O will again let you know about that tomorrow night...................said one of the recalls will take 5 hours to do.


----------



## johnc

*Got a call from Peugeot today*



johnc said:


> Sent an email to Peugeot today covering the following problems and was going to post it to 1Happy's new topic but it is now locked so have tacked it on to the end of the main thread.
> 
> To Peugeot Customer Care
> 
> SCUTTLE
> A partial repair has been made by a Peugeot Dealer to the centre of the scuttle but this still leaves a slight weep at the centre of the scuttle and there is still a 6 mm hole over the electrics. If I block the hole with the van on a left hand camber, water builds up.
> There are also two very small drain holes which block up (see note on windscreen wiper)
> With reference to the "FIAT PEUGEOT FIX" I must comment that this is nothing less than a botch up as the method by which the seal has been effected will almost certainly cause problems if I ever need to have the windscreen replaced. I am also concerned over the longevity of the repair when it come s to the van sitting out in direct sunshine.
> 
> ENGINE COVER (lack of)
> It has been reported on the internet that FIAT are providing an engine cover, is this an admission of failure that the Scuttle FIX does not work. I would be interested to know Peugeots plans for this area.
> 
> ENGINE
> The entire top of the aluminum cylinder head is covered in corrosion with rust stains near some of the bolts.
> 
> INJECTORS
> The injectors are covered in rust which is described by Peugeot as cosmetic however my concern is that the injectors will prove impossible to remove due to electrolytic and corrosions processes. When I looked at the engine on a number of occasions, the injectors were actually in a puddle of water about 5 mm deep.
> 
> HIGH PRESSURE FUEL PUMP.
> There is rust on the dome section of the HP unit and on other surrounding areas.
> 
> WINDSCREEN WIPER
> On either side of the scuttle (far left and far right) I have discovered two very small drain holes. The have become blocked up with the result that water gathers in the two outside pockets of the scuttle. The wiper arm on the driver's side is often immersed in water which is going to lead to premature failure. In addition, the actual wiper motor is showing signs of corrosion.
> 
> ELECTRICAL BOX
> The electrical box was in a permanent shower due to water leaking in through the 6 mm hole. In the meantime I have covered the electrics with plastic film to stop water getting in
> 
> VENTILATION AIR INTAKE
> This appears to leak water onto the engine.
> 
> ALTERNATOR
> This is showing signs of corrosion
> 
> STARTER MOTOR
> This is also showing signs of corrosion
> 
> ENGINE BATTERY.
> I have one incidence of the battery being flat when the vehicle was not used for approx 3 weeks, is this normal? I have to say it is possible that the Motorhome battery switch may have been left on the "vehicle" battery rather than in the "off" position.
> 
> ENGINE CONTROL SYSTEM
> The engine emission control system warning lamp (orange engine icon) came on when the outside temperature was - 3C. I read the manual and it recommended taking the van to a Peugeot dealer without delay so I decided to drive the van to my office and take the van over to Motorway Cars at Lunch time. After I had driven about a mile, I tried switching the engine off and back on. This resulted in the engine stuttering and causing the van to kangaroo. Stopped it again and the stuttering cleared and I was able to drive the 20 miles to work. The lamp stayed on the entire distance. When I got to work, I switched the engine off and then back on but the lamp was still illuminated. Tried again at lunch time and found that the lamp was now off.
> 
> On two occasions, the electronic odometer has started to flash but the fault has cleared when the vehicle has stopped.
> 
> REVERSING JUDDER
> I have found it impossible to reverse the van up a slight incline without considerable juddering.
> 
> John C


I was astonished to get a call from Peugeot Customer Service about an hour after I sent the above email complaining about the delay in arranging an inspection of my van.

They said that there will be a delay in arranging the inspection of my van as they were involved in a meeting with people in Paris. It appears there is a rethink going on.

The plot thickens!!!!


----------



## ChelstonServiceCentr

Russell

I have just taken a look at one of our vans with regards to your enquiry. The air-intake vents are channelled into a large intake box under the bonnet which has a large vent hose at the bottom. 

We have tested our vehicle and found no leaks coming from the vents or associated seals. If you have any digital pictures of your problem I would be delighted to get our Fiat Technical Expert to take a look and get back to you.

Martyn Leaf
Chelston Service Centre


----------



## MikeH

*X2/50 water ingress*

Hello Martin.
ref; Russell's enquiry about water leaks from the air intakes. Mine and a few others, have the problem that the water doesn't all drain away to the back of the intake and when opening the bonnet, the retained water then spills over the area below. Another point of entry is along the sides of the bonnet, there aren't any channels to drain water to the front and away, it just runs straight under and over the engine and electrics. Is anything being done about this? 
Is there a recall number for the brake light switch to be adjusted and lubricated? Which I beleive, from previous posts, to be the cause of the engine cutting out with the loss of all power until restarted. If this is true, surely, this should be a safety recall ?
Thanks for your time.

Mike H.


----------



## Grizzly

Is there anyone out there with a definitive list of all the faults and which van is affected by them ?

We're totally confused - along with 99.9% of other owners I suspect.

Some days, reading this thread, I'm amazed that we have done two circuits of Europe this year and only had to call out roadside assistance 3 times....!  

G


----------



## 96299

*Re: X2/50 water ingress*



MikeH said:


> Hello Martin.
> ref; Russell's enquiry about water leaks from the air intakes. Mine and a few others, have the problem that the water doesn't all drain away to the back of the intake and when opening the bonnet, the retained water then spills over the area below.
> 
> Mike H.


Yes mike,good discription.Mine does this as well,as I suspect all the others will also.

steve


----------



## ChelstonServiceCentr

Russel, Mike H & Grizzly

I will attempt to obtain answers for all your questions. Please bear with me while I ensure the information I pass on to you is 100% accurate.

Martyn Leaf
Chelston Service Centre


----------



## 1happy

*Database / Spreadsheet*

Hi Grizzly.
I haven't had to call out "roadside assistance 3 times..."
But fully expect the worse, based on copious problems posted on here & elsewhere!!!
Hence the need for....
Geralds Database/Spreadsheet coming soon 8) 
regards C
PS will notify on here as soon as available.


----------



## putties

I have just been informed my motorhome has just been booked into fiat for recall work of 5 items while in for warrnty work. Can anyone tell me whats happening???????????

Putties


----------



## 1happy

*Re: X2/50 water ingress*



MikeH said:


> Hello Martin.
> ref; Russell's enquiry about water leaks from the air intakes. Mine and a few others, have the problem that the water doesn't all drain away to the back of the intake and when opening the bonnet, the retained water then spills over the area below. Another point of entry is along the sides of the bonnet, there aren't any channels to drain water to the front and away, it just runs straight under and over the engine and electrics. Is anything being done about this?
> Is there a recall number for the brake light switch to be adjusted and lubricated? Which I beleive, from previous posts, to be the cause of the engine cutting out with the loss of all power until restarted. If this is true, surely, this should be a safety recall ?
> Thanks for your time.
> 
> Mike H.


Oops forgot to say 
Mine too!
C


----------



## geraldandannie

putties said:


> I have just been informed my motorhome has just been booked into fiat for recall work of 5 items while in for warrnty work. Can anyone tell me whats happening???????????


Hi, Putties

Check this post:

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-330306.html#330306

It will show you all of the water ingress-related 'issues' that we know about.

I suggest you ask your dealer / Fiat agent for a specific list of items they're going to attend to. Then tell us, and we'll tell you if there's anything else you should be asking them about, and how to check what they're done actually works.

I presume your Fiat is an X2/50 (2007 model)?

Gerald


----------



## Telbell

In view of all these issues with the X2/50 I am amazed that there's been no reference to the problems in the Motorhome Press and that the various "experts" who road test motorhomes, many of which are obviously X2/50's, seem to be oblivious to the issues and the hassle and stress caused to many owners.

Has anyone contacted the press? There must be many owners who don't have the privilege of accessing this site, and who probabl;y have never looked under the bonnet, who have no idea about "scuttlegate" and the other recall issues.

Should someone tell the Motorhome press?


----------



## ICDSUN

Telbell

I have contacted some of the magazines and I have seen posts from others who have done same, replys if any have not shown any interest, must be something to do with upsetting revenue etc from advertisers, as they are focusing on revenue not their subscribers

Chris


----------



## Grizzly

Telbell said:


> In view of all these issues with the X2/50 I am amazed that there's been no reference to the problems in the Motorhome Press ?


The January 2008 edition of Practical Motorhome plopped though the door about an hour ago.

See page 95 : _Fed up with water ingress on my Fiat_

G


----------



## 1happy

Hi G.
Is the article very interesting??
A brief outline for those of us who don't to buy these *advertising *based "consumer" mags would be handy?

Regards C


----------



## Rapide561

*Water*



Grizzly said:


> Telbell said:
> 
> 
> 
> In view of all these issues with the X2/50 I am amazed that there's been no reference to the problems in the Motorhome Press ?
> 
> 
> 
> The January 2008 edition of Practical Motorhome plopped though the door about an hour ago.
> 
> See page 95 : _Fed up with water ingress on my Fiat_
> 
> G
Click to expand...

Blooming hummer Chris - January 2008 - it is only November!

Chelston - here is a pic. Not the best quality. The water goes through the air vents and instead of draining away, it drips through what is presumably a water tight seal!

Note that my baby is left hand drive so I am guessing everything is on the opposite side to the "norm".

Looking at the pic, in he centre is my water slide to take scuttle drips away. To the left of that is a "big oval shaped thing" - that is where the water seems to collect after dripping through the air vents.

Russell


----------



## Telbell

> as they are focusing on revenue not their subscribers


Yes-see your point-perhaps, if something isn't sorted soon, Nicky Campbell's "Watchdog" may be appropriate?



> Is the article very interesting??
> A brief outline for those of us who don't to buy these advertising based "consumer" mags would be handy?


I agree: it looks like this was a "letter to the editor" What was the response?


----------



## b6x

> Is the article very interesting??
> A brief outline for those of us who don't to buy these advertising based "consumer" mags would be handy?
> 
> 
> 
> I agree: it looks like this was a "letter to the editor" What was the response?
Click to expand...

Not a letter to the editor, but a mail sent to the "technical Q&A". Not particularly interesting. Just says Fiat are working on a solution and a temporary measure of sealing between the windscreen and scuttle is possible.
Not really alot the "tech talk" guys can say really.


----------



## Telbell

Right- I can answer that myself now!! It was a letter. The "Technical Team" replied (and this is a summary)

The issue caught Fiat by surprise as they are only used to dealing with commercial drivers who don't look under the bonnet(Hmm)
Progress is being made
It's only cosmetic
You can put sealant down as a temp measuire
Fiat are deceloping a shield to direct water out of harm's way
Fiat's long term solution is to re-design the deflector on the screen & it will then be available as a retro fit.

Make what you will out of that!


----------



## Grizzly

1happy said:


> A brief outline for those of us who don't to buy these *advertising *based "consumer" mags would be handy?
> Regards C


You're being a bit hard on PM Catherine ! There's quite a lot of handy technical info plus travelogues and reviews in there too !

There is a letter in the DIY Q&A pages, sking if PM are aware of the water ingress problem, stating that many vehicles are involved,giving a brief summary of what happens and saying that the writers Fiat garage are not interested and Fiat claim not to know anything about it.

In his answer Simon Goldsworth from PM says _" this issue seems to have caught Fiat by surprise as it is used to working with commercial vehicle operators who never look in the engine bay...."_

He goes on to say that the issue has not been resolved but progress is being made. _"Importantly rust round the injector bays is a cosmetic problem and won't affect the running of your van. The rust is caused by a deflector at the base of the windscreen distorting and allowing water to run into the injectors. This then sits in the well that surrounds them._

It says you can put sealant between the deflector and screen as a temp measure . Fiat is developing a shield which will fit inside the engine bay to direct water behind the motor and out of harm's way.

Fiat's long term solution is to redesign and improve the deflector on the screen itself and this will be available as a retrofit

G


----------



## geraldandannie

Telbell said:


> Progress is being made; It's only cosmetic; You can put sealant down as a temp measuire; Fiat are deceloping a shield to direct water out of harm's way; Fiat's long term solution is to re-design the deflector on the screen & it will then be available as a retro fit.


That just about sums up the situation, I think. Mind you, it goes nowhere near to show the frustration we've been (and still are) suffering :evil:

Gerald


----------



## Telbell

Three replies for the :lol: :lol: price of one!!


----------



## oldenstar

Telephoned my local dealer today, as arranged, to book van in for the water feature remedies.
However, when asked, the dealer said they were only going to treat the injector area. :roll: No cover-not even a treatment for the scuttle/ windscreen area.
We agreed to leave it until the Fiat man has been to see her next week.
This after Fiat contacted me (after my complaint form at the NEC) and told me that the fix included the cover.
Luckily my van is not badly affected, and I'm sure it will eventually be sorted, but what a shambles.


----------



## Grizzly

Telbell said:


> Three replies for the :lol: :lol: price of one!!


I'm a slow typist !

The real interest for me is that the passage about "_rust around the injectors is a cosmetic problem and won't affect the running of your van"_is a direct quote from a Fiat internal memo that was leaked to us, accidentally-on-purpose in July.

It does not look like Mr Goldsworthy has actually looked for or seen an affected vehicle.

There are 2 photos with the letter.

G


----------



## 1happy

Hi G.
Sorry  
didn't mean to be hard on the point.
Been busy trying to get database going & talk to Gerald about it at the same time.
I obviously didn't get the wording right.
No offence meant  
regards c


----------



## Grizzly

1happy said:


> Hi G.
> Sorry No offence meant
> regards c


None at all taken C  Keep uo the sterling work. We really appreciate it. I'm not sure you'll be welcome if you gave your name to the lady on the door at Fiat however !!

I know exactly what you mean about advertising driven mags and yes, there's a fair bit in this one too but it has got some inspiring travelogues ( one about going to the Arctic circle this month ) and, this month, brings to light a problem we have too with a smelly Truma heater.

G


----------



## MikeH

*Fiat X2/50 water ingress*

Also in January PM Mark Bigault is running a Knaus on x2/50 chassis, and has had a few instances of the engine cutting out in "some potentially dangerous situations".
First Fiat dealer said there was an error with "cylinder one" and some of the " wiring in the engine was a bit tight" (whatever that means?) Rewired something and said it was Ok.
An hour later on the M40 it happened again.
It sounds as if the problem is the same as the faulty brake light switch, shall we tell him? 
Russell. Looking at your photo, I think you are having the same problem of water being retained in bonnet side of the inlet, and then emptying when you open the bonnet.
Mike H


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Fiat X2/50 water ingress*



MikeH said:


> It sounds as if the problem is the same as the faulty brake light switch, shall we tell him?
> Mike H


Yes, definately

[email protected]

G


----------



## 1happy

*Database thread is now ready !*



Grizzly said:


> I'm not sure you'll be welcome if you gave your name to the lady on the door at Fiat however !! G


Hi Grizzly.
I think I am about to be less popular with Fiat  
However if its all cosmetic they wont be worried :roll:

Gerald & I have finally (hopefully) got the answer to how?
Now its up to everyone else as to who & what ? 8)

*DATABASE THREAD HERE >>* http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-331394.html#331394


----------



## MikeH

*Fiat X2/50 water ingress*

Hi G.
I have sent an e-mail to Mark at Haymarket and asked him to let us know via this forum how he gets on.
Mike H


----------



## quartet

*Milan on the phone*

I got a call from Milan asking how satisfied I was with Fiat on a scale of 1-10 
I asked if I could use minus figures to the power of 10
She didn't seem to understand but I gave her all 1's and and special mention to my "friends" at Gainmanor Fiat
Barry


----------



## 96299

*Re: Milan on the phone*



Bessie560 said:


> I got a call from Milan asking how satisfied I was with Fiat on a scale of 1-10
> I asked if I could use minus figures to the power of 10
> She didn't seem to understand but I gave her all 1's and and special mention to my "friends" at Gainmanor Fiat
> Barry


Hi

I also had that call from Milan.And I also gave them a 1.It`s all they deserve to be honest,but if a minus figure was allowed,then thats what they would have got.

steve


----------



## dilly

*Water ingress*

This you tube video will show what this problem is all about, and what the unfortunate owners of the X2/50 including myself are having to put up with.



Ian.


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Fiat X2/50 water ingress*



MikeH said:


> Hi G.
> I have sent an e-mail to Mark at Haymarket and asked him to let us know via this forum how he gets on.
> Mike H


Good idea Mike. I'd be a bit surprised if there was no-one at all from that magazine at least reading posts on this forum. It would be good to have them as members -in their own right as MHers if they prefer not to be official.

G.


----------



## 1happy

*Re: Milan on the phone*



Bessie560 said:


> I got a call from Milan asking how satisfied I was with Fiat on a scale of 1-10
> I asked if I could use minus figures to the power of 10
> She didn't seem to understand but I gave her all 1's and and special mention to my "friends" at Gainmanor Fiat
> Barry


Very interesting 8O 
Someone mentioned (on the petition) that a survey took place in September & they (Fiat) were not too pleased with the low scores.
So they do another & hope the scores would be better now :?: :roll: 
Also why have not surveyed me...?
I am hurt  
Regards C


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Milan on the phone*



1happy said:


> [Also why have not surveyed me...?


I'm on my over 50th contact with Fiat. I suspect my name comes up in red on their computer " DO NOT EVEN THINK OF TANGLING WITH THIS WOMAN  " so I doubt we'll ever hear from them !

If they are reading this then my satisfaction rating of Fiat in general is as low as it is possible to get - and then some.

G


----------



## Briarose

Hi folks as promised here is what has happened to us.

A couple of days ago we rang Fiat on the number given on this thread they didn't seem to be that helpful to be honest............anyway my Husband rang a Fiat dealer as I posted before and then contacted Brownhillls the guy there checked on the computor and said yes we had a recall for the problem along with two other recalls (not 100% what they are but I think one was to do with steering rack).

Anyway Hubby asked when it could be done and we were quite surprised when he asked us to bring Bertie in the next day to leave for the work this morning as he said it was a good five hour job (for one of the jobs which we assumed was the water problem)

We duly took Bertie in and asked to be phoned when he was ready, we took him in yesterday lunchtime ever hopeful 'NOT' I might add esp knowing about all the posts in here.

My Husband asked if this was a permanant fix and was told 'yes' anyway around lunchtime today we phoned up as we had to travel over 1.5 hours to get back there, and was told that Bertie had been done yesterday 8O the lady had tried to phone us last night she said, but my Husbands phone was playing up so the call hadn't connected.

We travelled over to fetch him this afternoon and to be honest everything aside this has cost us quite a lot in fuel (not that I am complaining about that :lol: as we had to take our 4x4 that we used for pulling prev caravan) and approx 6 hours in travel time.

Anyway once at Brownhills I have been given the keys to Bertie, I haven't had or seen any report or job sheet for what has been done...............so I asked for a copy, the lady rang through to someone else presumably the service manager, and I was told that I could not have a copy due to the law (think that was her words) I thought hey hold on a minute here this is our motorhome and I would have thought that I would be entitled to know what has been done.

I asked her to explain to me what had been done, again whilst talking to someone on the phone she said they had cleaned and dried the area, left it to dry for four hours and then applied a wax oil base cover.

I asked her to write this down for me...........this is exactly what she wrote _clean then leave for four hours *wax oil base*_

By this time Hubby was actually back at the motorhome I assumed cover was some sort of cover :roll: but no so basically the cover is some sort of oil base that has been applied as in a coat of paint 8O

So folks that is it our story to date and both of us feel very unsure as to what has been done..............I am also the more I think about it surprised and shocked that we have no job report on this.

I am now wondering whether I should email someone higher up in Brownhills for an explanation at least......................thoughts please.

By the way I did get it confirmed that Brownhills are Fiat dealers.

*Edit PS I hope my post makes sense and also to say that I pointed out to the lady that there were discussions on the internet and she said everyone was gradually being recalled.


----------



## Zebedee

> so I asked for a copy, the lady rang through to someone else presumably the service manager, and I was told that I could not have a copy due to the law (think that was her words)


Hi Briarose

The only reason I can think of for this reaction is that *they *have something to fear from the law?? It seems eminently reasonable for you to be offered a copy of the job sheet without having to ask. Somebody will know for sure, but I would have said it's a legal requirement for them to give you a written summary of any work that has been paid for, even in the case of a warranty job.

I would have set the dogs on them! A pair of determined Welshies could have mauled an ankle or two in very short order. :evil: :evil: (_Joke, before anyone advises against it. We are both Welshie owners.)_

Cheers

(Edit) Will do the database tomorrow Catherine. Your post following this reminded me.


----------



## 1happy

*??*

Hi Briarose. 8) 
Loving the name by the way  
Did you ask if any of the recalls have been done?
Especially the pending VOSA ones?
I agree with you *we have a right to know* whats done to our vehicles, even if the paper work is top secret :roll: 
Also
If you have any patience left and we are talking here about the new X250 fiat would you like to take part in the database ?
HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-36202-days0-orderasc-0.html
Regards C
*PS Thanks to all contributors so far *


----------



## Briarose

*Re: ??*



1happy said:


> Hi Briarose. 8)
> Loving the name by the way
> Did you ask if any of the recalls have been done?
> Especially the pending VOSA ones?
> I agree with you *we have a right to know* whats done to our vehicles, even if the paper work is top secret :roll:
> Also
> If you have any patience left and we are talking here about the new X250 fiat would you like to take part in the database ?
> HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-36202-days0-orderasc-0.html
> Regards C
> *PS Thanks to all contributors so far *


Hi yes my Husband asked on the phone and I asked today........I wasn't actually told today which recalls had been dealt with as by then I felt I was asking too many questions.............esp when I mentioned the internet she sort of smiled and skipped over what I had said :roll:

That is why I asked her to write all what had been done down, but as I said above that is exactly what she wrote those few words I have done in italic.

I will of course be filling in your petiion etc etc we are going to have another close look in daylight tomorrow.

Thanks for all your hard work and remember an old saying *'the pen is mightier than the sword'*

Zebedee LOL ref the Welshies I should have took them with me :wink:


----------



## Briarose

I Happy just to add.

On reading all these posts I got Hubby to check if we were affected he inspected the vehicle and we were.

We rang Fiat who confirmed we were affected.

Our engine is a 2.3 diesel 130 BHP multijet.


----------



## 1happy

*Database / Spreadsheet ...Ready to view !*

Hi.
*Update Re:- The "Faults Database:New Fiat X250,Peugeot Boxer & Citroen" thread*

HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-331394.html#331394

*The Database / Spreadsheet can now be viewed*

HERE>> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pAEVt64jPXtRWMrFlbwFzDw

*Please remember that it is work in progress.*  
Data will be added as and when the authorised members have time.

It is evident already that some additional faults/concerns may need to be added to the database.
(if they continue to be reported by contributors!)

Bearing in mind that columns are limited, only prevalent issues will get a designated column!.

Please try to post your additional concerns (if you have any?) after question 18.

I had forgotten some of my "additional faults" until I read through the posts to fill in the database ! 

As a result I have "edited" and added these to my post, rather than creating a new post.

If I may ask all contributors to keep to the one post on the database thread in the same way. 

As previously stated discussions can continue on the main thread
HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-34317.html

*A great big thanks to all members who take the time to post their details on the "Database thread".* 8)

Regards 1happy/Catherine


----------



## grahamw

Hi Briarose

I have my vehicle booked in for the "Fiat bodge" on Monday 19th November. I'm booked in at Brownhills, Newark. Out of interest is this where you had your work done?

I've asked them to examine the state of the alternator and the driver's side wiper motor also as these could be prone to premature failure due to water damage.


Graham


----------



## Briarose

grahamw said:


> Hi Briarose
> 
> I have my vehicle booked in for the "Fiat bodge" on Monday 19th November. I'm booked in at Brownhills, Newark. Out of interest is this where you had your work done?
> 
> I've asked them to examine the state of the alternator and the driver's side wiper motor also as these could be prone to premature failure due to water damage.
> 
> Graham


Hi Graham yes it was done at Newark I know the other day something to do with wipers was mentioned so I wonder if that is anything to do with the problem you have ref the wiper motor.

I am going to get in touch with them again and say that we would like some sort of report on what exactly has been done.


----------



## MikeH

*fiat water ingress*

Hi 1Happy/Catherine and Gerald.
First, I would like to say thanks to you both and all others who have helped and are helping with the database. Keep up the good work.
Second, Could you please clarify for me, the "windscreen rubber poor fit". Do you mean the small rubber channel around the screen or the rubber on the top of the scuttle?
Thank you. Mike H.


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi Mike

It's the wide rubber seal around the windscreen. There was a photo posted a few days back, with someone's finger between the glass and the rubber. Further back, there was a photo of a wobbly rubber seal which obviously wasn't doing much sealing.

I've just had another idea - I could create a folder in my photo album on here, and every time someone posted a photo of their problem / fix whatever, I could copy it into the album, then if anyone asked a question like this, it would be easy to point them towards that album. Sound good?

Gerald


----------



## Grizzly

geraldandannie said:


> I've just had another idea - I could create a folder in my photo album on here, and every time someone posted a photo of their problem / fix whatever, I could copy it into the album, then if anyone asked a question like this, it would be easy to point them towards that album. Sound good?
> 
> Gerald


Sounds very good.

G


----------



## Telbell

Hi Gerald, Catherine etc.

Firstly I endorse Mike H's comments about the work you are all doing-well done!

Secondly-about the Spreadsheet. It occurs to me that such a document might also be useful for prospective purchasers of an X2/50. (like me perhaps :lol: )

I envisage, for example, arming myself with the spreadsheet whilst visiting dealers and inspecting/.checking vehicles for scvuttlegate etc. Just a thought.

Third- I appreciate its Work In Progress but to me there doesn't seem many people listed "in the grand scheme of things" and Fiat, dealers etc may claim that given the thousands sold, there aren't too many complainants. I've got in the habit in my travels of chatting to people with the X2/50 and persuading them to check under their bonnets for rust....and then giving them the MHF web address!

I'm still convinced there are many more out there who aren't even aware. Perhaps we should all spread the word?


----------



## Briarose

Hi Gerald that would be good, I tried to show my Husband the you tube link too but it wasn't working.

Many thanks Briarose


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*



geraldandannie said:


> I've just had another idea - I could create a folder in my photo album on here, and every time someone posted a photo of their problem / fix whatever, I could copy it into the album, then if anyone asked a question like this, it would be easy to point them towards that album. Sound good?
> 
> Gerald


Hi Gerald.
You never cease to amaze me  
What a good idea 8) 
We do often seem to cover old ground as more people become aware of the "issues".
A photo album & a database will help to clarify a lot of the problems. 

Re Telbell's quote below.


> Third- I appreciate its Work In Progress but to me there doesn't seem many people listed "in the grand scheme of things" and Fiat, dealers etc may claim that given the thousands sold, there aren't too many complainants. I've got in the habit in my travels of chatting to people with the X2/50 and persuading them to check under their bonnets for rust....and then giving them the MHF web address!
> 
> I'm still convinced there are many more out there who aren't even aware. Perhaps we should all spread the word?


Hi Telbell.
You are quite right,
There are many people unaware of either 
A/ The problem 
(I too have met people who didn't know!) :? 
OR
B/Where to go for info.
OR
C/ Some are waiting patiently for Fiat/Peugeot to "deal" with their "issues".
I and others have sadly found that we could be a very long time waiting, some waiting since March!! for heavens sake.

I have lost confidence hence the petition etc 

IF I could suggest that all members consider doing a link to the database thread on any forum,website etc that they can think of :idea: 8) 
HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-36202-days0-orderasc-0.html
Also I think the database / spreadsheet may have many uses.
If any one has any other thoughts on uses please feel free to share!

Regards C
PS Off to update the database.


----------



## Telbell

I could suggest that all members consider doing a link to the database thread on any forum,website etc that they can think of 
HERE>> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-36202-days0-orderasc-0.html


> Good idea!


----------



## MikeH

*Fiat water ingress*

Hi Gerald.
Thanks for reply. Have found photos, they were posted by Jacobite on the 5 Nov. The "windscreen rubber poor fit", is the rubber seal attached to the top edge of the scuttle. Yes mine is the same as photos and I have sealed it with gaffer tape and it is holding out well , at the moment, heavy rain forecast tomorrow and next week, so we'll see how it goes. 
Good idea of a photo album, so all pictures relevant to "scuttlegate" are kept together for reference.
Of to update my database entry.
Mike H.


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*



Telbell said:


> Secondly-about the Spreadsheet. It occurs to me that such a document might also be useful for prospective purchasers of an X2/50. (like me perhaps :lol: )
> I envisage, for example, arming myself with the spreadsheet whilst visiting dealers and inspecting/.checking vehicles for scvuttlegate etc. Just a thought.
> I'm still convinced there are many more out there who aren't even aware. Perhaps we should all spread the word?


Hi Telbell.

Just another thought re the above parts of your post.

My dealer informs me no other customers have complained to him about this problem !
I have informed him that there are definitely others and told him about the forum.
So perhaps we should all carry a copy with us to prove we are not deluded individuals.
I stress my dealer has not called me this & is in actual fact trying (everything within his power) to find a way to make me happy again!
I only point this out because 
A/ I know he is probably reading this. :roll: 
B/ I don't want to do him a injustice  
C/ I dearly want all dealers to bring pressure to bear on the converters & vehicle manufacturers 8) 
Because if the Manufacturers of these vehicles continue to behave shoddily the brand will be seriously & perhaps permanently damaged 

MikeH.
I will do my best to alter your amended data ASAP  
Good Idea mentioning on this thread that you are doing so!
Otherwise Gerald & (now very kindly) Carol & myself could have missed it. 

Also a point worth noting that as the Spreadsheet is a work in progress it is only worth printing off as & when nessacery so info is a current as possible :roll: 
Cheers Catherine.

Regards C


----------



## geraldandannie

Sorry - I've not been so attentive today. Thinking about big plans and all that 8O

I'll get the photos done tomorrow, and make sure I post a link to it.

The spreadsheet will grow, and I hope to 'spread the word' elsewhere, using Catherine's template. Obviously, the more information we have, the better.

It may be that dealers might welcome a bit of extra pressure on Fiat to resolve the problem.

BTW, the VOSA recall (mentioned by Peter from Swift :: here :: is due in just over a week's time (26th), plus or minus a few days or so. Should we hold our breath? The campaign numbers are well known now (even though there are still some dealers who are unsure of what they mean, or not capable of providing a customer with a list of work done), so there should be nothing to stop the recall going ahead.

Mind you, if there's any more evidence of Fiat redesigning the scuttle, I might want to wait until that's sorted. And if they are redesigning the scuttle (to make it one piece?), how does that affect the new vans that are being delivered now? *If I were Peter from Swift, I think I'd want to know the truth from Fiat, I wouldn't want to be building vans to sell to customers in the knowledge that they're flawed, and will need to be recalled some time in the future.*

Gerald


----------



## stewartwebr

Hi folks,

I have just collected my van back from Fiat. It was being held by them until such time as I was able to collect it after it being back at Swift (see previous post...great job by Swift). I asked the garage to complete any recalls that may be outstanding whilst they had it.

I collected it on a Sunday, so the service department was closed. I'm therefore unsure what work was completed. However, with regard to the infamous scuttle, it appears that a new metal cover has been installed below the middle of the scuttle to direct water away. They have also drilled a large hole to the left hand side of the scuttle and connected a pipe about 1 inch in diameter to the hole. The pipe is fixed and fed through the engine compartment to the lower level to allow water to flow clear of the engine. My injectors have been cleaned and coated.

I'm currently in Manchester and using my Pocketsurfer2 for access...great device. 

I will get the exact details of what they did to the van and let you all know on my return to Edinburgh in 3 weeks time. Heading of to Paris next

Stewart


----------



## 1happy

*Database / Spreadsheet*

Hi Gerald.
Do you think it would be possible to have a "Sticky" on the below.  
I only ask because its inevitable some affected members will not know of its existence! 

*Faults Database:New Fiat X250,Peugeot Boxer & Citroen*

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-331394.html#331394

Hi stewartwebr.
Thanks for the update.
Hopefully your fix works.
But please do fill in the Database if you can after your trip 8) 
Regards C


----------



## Grizzly

geraldandannie said:


> BTW, the VOSA recall (mentioned by Peter from Swift :: here :: is due in just over a week's time (26th), plus or minus a few days or so. Gerald


Apologies if this is a daft question but who will notify us of the VOSA recall ? Will we get a letter from VOSA, Fiat or our motorhome dealer ? If we don't have anything by -say - the end of the month, who do we contact about it ?

G


----------



## carolgavin

Grizzly said:


> geraldandannie said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, the VOSA recall (mentioned by Peter from Swift :: here :: is due in just over a week's time (26th), plus or minus a few days or so. Gerald
> 
> 
> 
> Apologies if this is a daft question but who will notify us of the VOSA recall ? Will we get a letter from VOSA, Fiat or our motorhome dealer ? If we don't have anything by -say - the end of the month, who do we contact about it ?
> 
> G
Click to expand...

I too was wondering about this, but I had a vague recollection that it came from your dealer


----------



## christopherobin

Hope this helps:-

Dear Mr Vowles,

Thank you for your email.

The manufacturer arranges for letters to be sent out to the customers
regarding safety recalls. Therefore, I would recommend that you speak to
Fiat Customer Service in order that they may advise you should your vehicle
be part of the affected range.

Mrs Alison Martin
Safety Recalls Manager
Vehicle Safety Branch

Tel: 01179-543249

Chris


----------



## Grizzly

christopherobin said:


> The manufacturer arranges for letters to be sent out to the customers
> regarding safety recalls. Therefore, I would recommend that you speak to
> Fiat Customer Service
> 
> Chris


Thanks Chris ! I won't be holding my breath then if Fiat arrange the recalls.
I guess if we wait for _them_ to contact _us_ then the van will be too old to pass an MOT let alone justify a recall. :wink:

G


----------



## GerryD

For information, as with all official recalls for all types of products, the Manufacturer is compelled to provide proof to the official body that letters have been sent to the last known address of all owners.
If, because of the type of product a purchaser's name and address are not captured at the time of purchase, as with the recent Russell Hobbs kettle featured on Watchdog, a notice must be posted on several occasions in several national newspapers and also at each branch of every retailer that sold the product.
In the case of a motor vehicle, tracing the registered owners is easy and should be quite a quick process as part of the delay has been the collation of names and addresses before the official date of notification.


----------



## Grizzly

GerryD said:


> For information, as with all official recalls for all types of products, the Manufacturer is compelled to provide proof to the official body that letters have been sent to the last known address of all owners.
> .


Gerry, thanks, that's very reassuring.

I'll not return the contents of the spare room back to the van just yet I think. 

G


----------



## 1happy

*NEW Fiat & Peugeot Faults & Recalls !!!!*

Hi All.  
I am off on my travels now (Recall work/garage permitting ) & will be checking in from time to time (WiFi permitting!) 
Geraldandannie 8) & carolgavin 8)  are also very kindly looking after the database/spreadsheet. 
I suggest any questions (RE Database) should be posted on this the "main thread" where any of us may answer, rather than PMing if possible...Thankyou.
I will of course post what was done at the garage when possible. :idea: 
I hope all goes well & no breakdowns, but I am not confident  but when you gotta go you gotta go :lol: 
Regards & BIG thanks Catherine


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi Catherine

Fingers crossed that everything's OK for you. Have a great time. Don't you worry about us, stuck at home, looking at the greying skies through the window, dreaming of a time ... etc etc etc :wink: 

Thanks for the huge amount of work you've done for us water babies so far. I'm sure everything will be sorted very soon now :? :?: :?: 

Gerald


----------



## Rapide561

*Recalls*

Hi

I asked Fiat how they contact people about recalls, as in my case, my name and address was not on the Fiay systems.

Fiat advised me that they contact the DVLA for the owners details and send correspondence to the address provided.

Russell


----------



## zulurita

Russell,

I personally notified Fiat UK at Slough that I had bought the new mh. I saw on the print out re my recalls that they had my warranty start date as 07/03/07  when my registration date is 02/11/07

I wrote a letter explaining the situation and I copied my registration document (the first and 2nd page).

I had a phone call from Fiat the next day saying they had received my letter and my warranty start date had been amended.


----------



## Briarose

Hi again folks well as I told you the other day we took Bertie to Brownhills last week for what we were told was a permanant fix to the probs.

Anyway also as I told you I was not allowed a copy of what work had been carried out etc so this morning I have contacted the new guy at Brownhills 'Tom' I explained as I did on here what we were told both on the phone and whilst in the dealership that the repair they were going to carry out was a permanant solution to the prob..............I also asked for a copy of work carried out (including any other recall work) this is his reply :roll:

_What we are talking about here is water ingress into the engine bay - this may cause unsightly staining but it is of no consequence to the use and reliability of the unit.
Both Fiat and Peugeot are looking at ways of addressing the rainwater run-off and as matters develop, we will keep you advised.
Many thanks
Tom_

Ermmmn 8O :roll: :roll: so no ref to copies of work carried out etc etc the annoying thing is we already knew what the problem is I don't really feel I have had a answer.

Just a shame that Brownhills can't take a leaf out of Swifts book as we cannot fault Swifts themselves they are so helpful.


----------



## 105062

QUOTE : _this may cause unsightly staining but it is of no consequence to the use and reliability of the unit. _

Is there only me with a set of uncovered relays on the passenger side inner-wing that is getting soaking wet every time it rains ? I think they may be to do with the aircon but not sure.
Cheers


----------



## carolgavin

Briarose said:


> _What we are talking about here is water ingress into the engine bay - this may cause unsightly staining but it is of no consequence to the use and reliability of the unit.
> Both Fiat and Peugeot are looking at ways of addressing the rainwater run-off and as matters develop, we will keep you advised.
> Many thanks
> Tom_


So we are back to this then are we???? I am so fed up of these people making sweeping statements about something they clearly cannot be sure of and frankly cannot back up with evidence.
I ask again if it is of no consequence, why cover it??
If it is of no consequence, why clean it???
If it is of no consequence, WHY ARE YOU RECALLING THE BLASTED THINGS??????????????????????????
Sorry shouting, but 14 weeks later I am no closer to a resolution and I am getting seriously p****d off!!!


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat and Peugeot*



carolgavin said:


> Briarose said:
> 
> 
> 
> _What we are talking about here is water ingress into the engine bay - this may cause unsightly staining but it is of no consequence to the use and reliability of the unit.
> Both Fiat and Peugeot are looking at ways of addressing the rainwater run-off and as matters develop, we will keep you advised.
> Many thanks
> Tom_
> 
> 
> 
> So we are back to this then are we???? I am so fed up of these people making sweeping statements about something they clearly cannot be sure of and frankly cannot back up with evidence.
> I ask again if it is of no consequence, why cover it??
> If it is of no consequence, why clean it???
> If it is of no consequence, WHY ARE YOU RECALLING THE BLASTED THINGS??????????????????????????
> Sorry shouting, but 14 weeks later I am no closer to a resolution and I am getting seriously p****d off!!!
Click to expand...

I can only agree, Carol.

Russell

PS - how long has your panda had flashing eyes!


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Fiat and Peugeot*



Rapide561 said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Briarose said:
> 
> 
> 
> _What we are talking about here is water ingress into the engine bay - this may cause unsightly staining but it is of no consequence to the use and reliability of the unit.
> Both Fiat and Peugeot are looking at ways of addressing the rainwater run-off and as matters develop, we will keep you advised.
> Many thanks
> Tom_
> 
> 
> 
> So we are back to this then are we???? I am so fed up of these people making sweeping statements about something they clearly cannot be sure of and frankly cannot back up with evidence.
> I ask again if it is of no consequence, why cover it??
> If it is of no consequence, why clean it???
> If it is of no consequence, WHY ARE YOU RECALLING THE BLASTED THINGS??????????????????????????
> Sorry shouting, but 14 weeks later I am no closer to a resolution and I am getting seriously p****d off!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can only agree, Carol.
> 
> Russell
> 
> PS - how long has your panda had flashing eyes!
Click to expand...

She has had flashing eyes since last week when I got mad at Purilegeot, they will continue to flash till my van is fixed!!!!!!!!
Oh have you put your faults on the Spreadsheet thread??? Link on my signature


----------



## ICDSUN

Briarose said:


> Hi again folks well as I told you the other day we took Bertie to Brownhills last week for what we were told was a permanant fix to the probs.
> 
> Anyway also as I told you I was not allowed a copy of what work had been carried out etc so this morning I have contacted the new guy at Brownhills 'Tom' I explained as I did on here what we were told both on the phone and whilst in the dealership that the repair they were going to carry out was a permanant solution to the prob..............I also asked for a copy of work carried out (including any other recall work) this is his reply :roll:
> 
> _What we are talking about here is water ingress into the engine bay - this may cause unsightly staining but it is of no consequence to the use and reliability of the unit.
> Both Fiat and Peugeot are looking at ways of addressing the rainwater run-off and as matters develop, we will keep you advised.
> Many thanks
> Tom_
> 
> Ermmmn 8O :roll: :roll: so no ref to copies of work carried out etc etc the annoying thing is we already knew what the problem is I don't really feel I have had a answer.
> 
> Just a shame that Brownhills can't take a leaf out of Swifts book as we cannot fault Swifts themselves they are so helpful.


Briarose

Obviously someone is blessed with foresight, so he should have no problem in extending your warranty to cover these items of no consequence. :twisted:

Arrogance and Ignorance when combined are dangerous when applied to Customer Service.

Now you should run along and stop annoying those nice people at Brownhills, they have had your money now *** off :wink:

Chris


----------



## Briarose

ICDSUN said:


> Briarose said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi again folks well as I told you the other day we took Bertie to Brownhills last week for what we were told was a permanant fix to the probs.
> 
> Anyway also as I told you I was not allowed a copy of what work had been carried out etc so this morning I have contacted the new guy at Brownhills 'Tom' I explained as I did on here what we were told both on the phone and whilst in the dealership that the repair they were going to carry out was a permanant solution to the prob..............I also asked for a copy of work carried out (including any other recall work) this is his reply :roll:
> 
> _What we are talking about here is water ingress into the engine bay - this may cause unsightly staining but it is of no consequence to the use and reliability of the unit.
> Both Fiat and Peugeot are looking at ways of addressing the rainwater run-off and as matters develop, we will keep you advised.
> Many thanks
> Tom_
> 
> Ermmmn 8O :roll: :roll: so no ref to copies of work carried out etc etc the annoying thing is we already knew what the problem is I don't really feel I have had a answer.
> 
> Just a shame that Brownhills can't take a leaf out of Swifts book as we cannot fault Swifts themselves they are so helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> Briarose
> 
> Obviously someone is blessed with foresight, so he should have no problem in extending your warranty to cover these items of no consequence. :twisted:
> 
> Arrogance and Ignorance when combined are dangerous when applied to Customer Service.
> 
> Now you should run along and stop annoying those nice people at Brownhills, they have had your money now *** off :wink:
> 
> Chris
Click to expand...

Hi well further update...........Swift have phoned me to ask how I got on last Friday at Brownhills (again pat on the back to Swift themselves) I explained all that I have reported on here :wink: as a further reply from Tom didn't help much either.

Anyway the lady at Swift said she was going to telephone Brownhills and we were shocked to get a phone call a few minutes ago from Brownhills 8O who have now confirmed that this was not a permanant fix and are going to look into the fact that we were told it was last week (before taking it in I might add) the gentleman has now been good enough also to tell us what other recall work has been carried out.

I guess now like everyone else we will have to wait and see what happens in the future with the water ingress probs 
Quote

_What we are talking about here is water ingress into the engine bay - this may cause unsightly staining but it is of no consequence to the use and reliability of the unit.

I would say and I am no expert why then are 
Quote 
Both Fiat and Peugeot are looking at ways of addressing the rainwater run-off and as matters develop, we will keep you advised.
Many thanks

In a way that contradicts itself :wink: time will tell hey._


----------



## grahamw

*Recalls*

Hi All

Took my motorhome into Brownhills, Newark today for water ingress work to be done.

I had already asked them to look at two other related issues namely corrosion on the alternator and the driver's side wiper motor shaft as both have been subjected to excessive water and the possibility of premature failure is high.

I was invited to meet with the person responsible for doing the fixes and advised him directly of my concerns. I also took advantage of the meeting to express my grave concerns about the cheap fix approach that Fiat was adopting and that a redesigned scuttle was the professional solution. I did add that I understood that he could only follow Fiat's instructions and attempt the fixes. It was obvious to me that he had little confidence in the fixes he was about to do concerning the water ingress.

The outcomes were constructive. Brownhills have taken a photograph of the alternator and will be dispatching this to Fiat adding a description of "excessive corrosion" and a similar comment regarding the wiper motor shaft. The report also states that the scuttle panel was badly warped and incorrectly fitted by Fiat. An attempt has been made to seal the warped scuttle panel as a temporary measure but on inspection, not surprisingly, this has failed in two places at the moment. The likleyhood of this was understood by Brownhills as a new scuttle has been ordered.

Recall number 5219 was on the list but Brownhills have received no guidance on work to be done under this number from Fiat. No cover was fitted over the injectors as they have no instruction for this. Removal of rust from the injectors was generally well done except for one injector which was well corroded in the first place.

Quite a reasonable day with a sympathetic and measured response from Brownhills. I think they did what they could within the absolutely appalling remit they have from Fiat. I'm a little surprised at earlier comments in this thread quoting senior management at Brownhills. If he says the water ingress has no detrimental impact on the vehicle then either he is not down on the shop floor enough at the Newark premises to see the impact of it or he's swallowed the Fiat nonsense. He really needs to be representing his customer concerns to Fiat just as Peter Smith at Swift has done so magnificently.

Graham


----------



## Briarose

Hi Graham I am so pleased that you were able to discuss this with someone and they were helpful I have been thinking of you today so that is great news.


----------



## geraldandannie

Yes, well done Graham, and thanks for the report.

The saga continues, with very little from Fiat (for very little, read 'nothing'). After the nonsensical statement several weeks ago ("we are aware ... only cosmetic ... however we're doing ...") there has been absolutely no news from Fiat at all on this - just the sad water babies trudging their vans in for a quick de-rust and a bodge on the scuttle. Fiat are obviously hoping that will keep us quiet, and the press release has been swallowed hook, line and sinker by the monthlies with one eye on their advertising revenue.

I think it's time to give the Camping Club another poke, with a link to our online spreadsheet. I think it's about time they started to take some interest (if they want my subs next year, that is).

Gerald


----------



## Telbell

> I think it's time to give the Camping Club another poke,


Caravan Club is that?- if it comes to that why not send the database to all the magazines-If the letter/response in the Practical Motorhome is anything to go by"Cosmetic, not affecting use "etc) then this is the story that Fiat have given all the nedia and perhaps it's time they were put right-big time?


----------



## geraldandannie

The problem with the magazines is that they depend on advertising to stay in business, and anything that risks a potential advertisier pulling an ad (especially a large company like Fiat who have been placing multi-page, full colour ads in the mags) won't be tolerated.

I suspect this is why none of the mags have featured this issue too prominently.

Gerald


----------



## zulurita

Today my Fiat water ingress issues have been seen to as far as the technicians can.

1. The centre join has had further work sealing it and when I pointed out water was pooling there when parked a little nose down they have put another hole and pipe here to aid drainage.

2. I mentioned the air intake leaking water from the front of the air intake, again if parked nose down a little. So a drainage hole has been made at the front and a tube attached to allow the water to drain away.

3. The small drainage hole had already been enlarged on nearside scuttle area (after discussion when we went up for collection of mh)

4. The modification done by Eddie (Van Bitz) to the Water slide area, making a longer water slide (on top of the original water slide, so easily removed if required) with sealant to direct water down the middle of this extra long water slide is effective. It is a pity FIAT don't do a longer water slide to save this type of modification being done. Also a one piece Windscreen scuttle with better drainage to prevent pooling of water around windscreen wiper motors would be the ideal solution.

However that aside Chelston and Eddie have done as much as they can I feel to help in this matter. IT IS NOW UP TO FIAT TO SORT THIS OUT PROPERLY.

I am also happy that I do have a cover over my injectors.


----------



## carolgavin

> if it comes to that why not send the database to all the magazines-If the letter/response in the Practical Motorhome is anything to go by"Cosmetic, not affecting use "etc) then this is the story that Fiat have given all the nedia and perhaps it's time they were put right-big time


Seeing as the database was mentioned could I please ask anyone who has not yet done so to put their details on the thread????? Link at end of my sig. It is just that there are more of us affected that the database currently show so not entirely representative of those affected. If you would prefer to remain anonymous please PM me and I will add you with anon in the relevent fields!!
Please add your details it gives us more oomph that way plus Catherine 1happy will kill me if I don't have more people added by the time she logs on again!!!!


----------



## gm6vxb

Just wonder if anyone has full access to this FIAT site: https://www.technicalinformation.fiat.com/ecomm-web/web/
It is part of the 'technical support' site. 
Under 'Fault diagnosis/ Test' is a section called Water Penetration, where have I heard that before.
Could the present Ducato water ingress problem be in here ?.
Unfortunately you have to pay for access. Have any of the dealers got access. As the site is web based there is a possibilty that there may be up to date information here.
I will be asking my friendly FIAT dealer if I can have a look tomorrow when I take the wifes car in for it's first service.

Martin.


----------



## Telbell

geraldandannie said:


> The problem with the magazines is that they depend on advertising to stay in business,
> Gerald


Take your point Gerald but surely there is a stage where given enough strong feeling the mags can't continue to ignore the issue and bombarding them with complaints may make them sit up and at least start to make reference to tghem in the so-called "thorough and independent reviews"


----------



## grahamw

Hi All

I reported a couple of weeks ago a conversation I had with Fiat Customer Care and their comment that Fiat were working on a redesign of the scuttle.
Obviously this is the professional solution that we all require rather than the current bodges which address only part of the problem and add to possible additional problems in the future ie premature failure of under bonnet components and difficulties with replacement windscreens should the need arise.

Alas further contact with Fiat Customer Care has hardly been constructive. They confirmed that Fiat are redesigning the scuttle but no news about its availability and whether it will be offered to us as a solution.

I do get the distinct feeling that Fiat will continue to fob us off with the current fix which in the longer term will have disasterous consequences for our trade in values. Would you buy one of these Fiat based secondhand motorhomes in three years time? Would you buy a new one now if you knew what you know now? You'd wait until it was fixed properly at the manufacturing stage. Well don't hold out any hope as apparently they are still coming down the production line like this and bodged at a later point.

Alarmingly I was told by Fiat Customer Care that they have only received 3 other such complaints along the lines of mine. It appears they hadn't considered the implications for windscreen replacement but are now looking at that as a serious issue. They agreed that their fix fell short of the mark as it didn't address all the issues and that's why they are looking at a redesign of the scuttle.

I am concerned that Fiat Customer Care don't seem to be getting the full message and that by enlarge we'll be happy with the bodges. In my conversation I drew their attention to this MHF Forum suggesting he might get a somewhat different picture and some very useful information from it. I also suggested that they might use it as a point of communication as one or two other manufacturers have so courageously done. He said he would pass this information to his superiors and also have a look at the site himself. He did advise me that one person yesterday had said exactly the same.

He did say that he was arranging a meeting at Brownhills for me to discuss the problem with Brownhills and a Fiat engineer. I just despair! Presumably they want to discuss how the humidity has impaired the performance of the adhesive used on the scuttle. Just redesign the bl....dy scuttle!

Fiat Customer Care 00800 3428 0000 - it's free!

Graham


----------



## 96299

grahamw said:


> Hi All
> 
> I reported a couple of weeks ago a conversation I had with Fiat Customer Care and their comment that Fiat were working on a redesign of the scuttle.
> Obviously this is the professional solution that we all require rather than the current bodges which address only part of the problem and add to possible additional problems in the future ie premature failure of under bonnet components and difficulties with replacement windscreens should the need arise.
> 
> Alas further contact with Fiat Customer Care has hardly been constructive. They confirmed that Fiat are redesigning the scuttle but no news about its availability and whether it will be offered to us as a solution.
> 
> I do get the distinct feeling that Fiat will continue to fob us off with the current fix which in the longer term will have disasterous consequences for our trade in values. Would you buy one of these Fiat based secondhand motorhomes in three years time? Would you buy a new one now if you knew what you know now? You'd wait until it was fixed properly at the manufacturing stage. Well don't hold out any hope as apparently they are still coming down the production line like this and bodged at a later point.
> 
> Alarmingly I was told by Fiat Customer Care that they have only received 3 other such complaints along the lines of mine. It appears they hadn't considered the implications for windscreen replacement but are now looking at that as a serious issue. They agreed that their fix fell short of the mark as it didn't address all the issues and that's why they are looking at a redesign of the scuttle.
> 
> I am concerned that Fiat Customer Care don't seem to be getting the full message and that by enlarge we'll be happy with the bodges. In my conversation I drew their attention to this MHF Forum suggesting he might get a somewhat different picture and some very useful information from it. I also suggested that they might use it as a point of communication as one or two other manufacturers have so courageously done. He said he would pass this information to his superiors and also have a look at the site himself. He did advise me that one person yesterday had said exactly the same.
> 
> He did say that he was arranging a meeting at Brownhills for me to discuss the problem with Brownhills and a Fiat engineer. I just despair! Presumably they want to discuss how the humidity has impaired the performance of the adhesive used on the scuttle. Just redesign the bl....dy scuttle!
> 
> Fiat Customer Care 00800 3428 0000 - it's free!
> 
> Graham


Hi Graham

Was the guy you spoke to Martin Delaney? If so, I was that other person who advised him to get a spokesman to come on here and attempt to put everyones minds at rest.He said to me as well that he would need to speak with his superiors.

steve


----------



## 96299

Forgot to say that the FiART guy I spoke to yesterday mentioned another campaign,That of ( in his words ) a starter fuse or something?When asked "what is that then" he didn`t really know to be honest and that he would look into it a bit further. :lol: I wonder if it has anything to do with the clonking on start up that some peeps have reported?

steve


----------



## rrusty

I have been watching this thread since Sept that is when I purchased my MH I have also got the watergate problem, as I wrote in earlier threads. I also entered my details on the data base, I am a bit surprised that there has not been more people entering there details. However I will now get to the point. I have got 4 mercedes sprinter panel vans all 2003 models I have just inspected them all & everyone is leaking from the scuttle onto the top of the engine but they all have an engine cover. 

Graeme (rrusty)


----------



## zulurita

It is Martin Delaney I spoke to when he phoned from Fiat re warranty start date. He asked if there was anything else and I told him I wasn't happy with this water ingress issue. He said he handn't had many complaining. \i told him he should look at motorhomefacts web site and he would see all the complaints.

I also told him that Fiat's so called fix wasn't very good.


----------



## grahamw

Hi Steve (Chigman)

It was indeed Martin Delaney I spoke to and you would therfore be the person who he referred to as contacting him yesterday and drawing his attention to the MHF forum.

Going to ring Brownhills now and see what's organised re my meeting with them and a Fiat engineer.

Graham


----------



## christopherobin

*YouTube*

Hi All

Coment left on YouTube tonight!






bareuzai21 (13 minutes ago)

We have the same problems, and the same answers from Fiat/PSA in France :-((((

What about a great 'buzz' all over Europe to "shake" FIAT/PSA ??? YouTube Video

Chris


----------



## 107476

A few pics of a new 08 model not sold or registered yet.

Could stick my finger into the joint of the scuttle, NOT sealed and coming away from the screen also. (PIC 3)

The small hole and outlet on the left side of the scuttle had NO hose attached.

Engine cover looked OK. (pic 1)

Water can easily come through the bonnet straight onto the fuse Box. No seal or gully to take it away. Awful (pic 2)

Sorry for the poor pics , crappy camera phone.


----------



## geraldandannie

Thanks for the pics and the information, JTL.

It just goes to show that Fiat are _still_ ignoring the basic, fundamental problem - that of water getting into the engine bay. They prefer to spend their time covering up the problem - the treatment to the injectors and the covers. Why did they spend their time creating the cover, instead of creating a new scuttle? Because covering up the problem will ensure sales aren't damaged by potential customers seeing the rust, that's why.

Gerald


----------



## Glengyle

Can someone please post a picture of the alternator (2.2l 100mj) so I can check if it's rusting. thanks.


----------



## christopherobin

Have a look at video and stop it at 1.45 secs






Chris


----------



## carolgavin

*Database*

Hi guys could I just ask those who have not yet posted their details on the database thread to please please do so!!!!!!!!!! I know there are more of us out there and it does make really interesting reading for those affected!!
So take 5 teensy tinesy mins out your day and post your details!!!

Link in my signature below so you don't even have to go looking


----------



## sallytrafic

geraldandannie said:


> Thanks for the pics and the information, JTL.
> 
> It just goes to show that Fiat are _still_ ignoring the basic, fundamental problem - that of water getting into the engine bay. They prefer to spend their time covering up the problem - the treatment to the injectors and the covers. Why did they spend their time creating the cover, instead of creating a new scuttle? Because covering up the problem will ensure sales aren't damaged by potential customers seeing the rust, that's why.
> 
> Gerald


Looking at the design I don't see how a one piece scuttle could be either retro fitted or even included in new build without major front end redesign something Fiat probably won't want to do. I reckon a three part scuttle could be made with the joints at the edges and drained.

ps only keeping this thread on the front page to save reading about football


----------



## carolgavin

Been on to VOSA re recalls of our vehicles and got through to the Vehicle Safety Branch, they are sending me out a *Defect Reporting Form *to fill in so that they can investigate the faults. They currently have NO knowledge of the problem on our vans and are not aware of any imminent recalls. Make of that what you will!!! They are very interested in the windscreen wiper problem and the water on electrics. I have to fill in form and they will investigate and get back to me!!!!!! May be worth a call??? 0117 9543 200 ask for Vehicle Safety Branch!!


----------



## zulurita

Ooh, a bit rusty I'd say!!!

Is that all in one year as the new Fiat X2/50 only came out 2006.?


----------



## zulurita

another recall I have been notified about, by Fiat.

5248 Starter motor fuse.


----------



## grahamw

carolgavin

Many thanks for the information about VOSA and the availability of the *Defect Reporting Form*. I've asked them to send me one. Apparently they have someone working with Fiat on "a range of issues" but unfortunately he was out of the office.

I'm sure filling one of the forms in will be very useful.

Graham


----------



## MikeH

*Fiat water ingress*

Hi Carolgavin.
Just phoned VOSA and they are putting" Vehicle defects report form" in the post today. I mentioned all the usual faults associated with the "scuttlegate" affair, plus the fault which causes the engine to cut out, when driving, believed to be the brake light switch affecting the electronics. Which I think, on it's own, should be a safety recall. 
So everyone give them a call and ask for the form, the more they receive the more notice they might take and realise this is not just a few minor faults, and ask Fiat what they are doing and why has it taken so long.
Mike H.


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

As I understand the current situation:

1. There is now an official Fiat recall about the water ingress problem. Owners should contact their local Fiat Service Centre. It is pointless asking your appointed MH dealer for a fix as he cannot carry out Fiat chassis/cab warranty fixes and in addition he DOES not get informed by Fiat as he is NOT a Fiat Service Dealer, a failure on behalf of Fiat in my view.

Evidently all Fiat service centres are obliged to supply a courtesy car when your van is left with them

Fiat on recalls contact the last registered OWNER of the van and only when Fiat are told by a previously registered owner that he has sold/exchanged that van do Fiat contact any dealer supplying Motor Homes and then basically we only get told to contact a Fiat Service Dealer.

We investigated becoming a Fiat Service Dealer and found out that we would have to cover ALL Fiat warranty repairs on cars, MH's and vans, anything that was built on a Fiat chassis.

Being a dedicated MH dealer, we declined as that would turn us into a general garage workshop to the detriment of our Motor Home customers.
Although we are of the opinion that Fiat should appoint MH dealerships like ours to specifically service the MH customer base as this would be a one stop service/warranty contact and allow the dealer to directly sort out any customer problems at source.

2, *Swift since about the middle of October have been modifying all Fiat chassis/cabs before they leave the factory.* What the other MH manufacturers are doing, we do not know.

We ourselves have only had two incidences of water ingress, all our current new stock vehicles on inspection appear to be fine.

Regards

Peter Bartlett


----------



## geraldandannie

JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> We ourselves have only had two incidences of water ingress, all our current new stock vehicles on inspection appear to be fine.


Hi, Peter

So, how are the 'fine'? Do thwy have injector covers that stop you seeing the rust? Have you tried to throw a bucket of water at the screen, and see what happens? Also, a photo or two of your engine bays (showing the joint between the two halves of the scuttle) would be most useful to us in understanding how this matter hasn't received the attention it surely now deserves.

Gerald


----------



## 105062

Just had recall no 4, flash upgrade, and Fiat have also again asked me to have the water ingress recall done but it still only consists of grease and does not stop water going on my uncovered relays. This time my Fiat dealer has said that the Ducatos are made by peugeot and they are working on the proper modification and its out of Fiats hands, does this ring true or is it to deflect my requests for a proper fix?


----------



## Telbell

Gerald

In effect that's the point I made (see the "New Boy" thread) when JC m/homes flew the flag for Swift. No response as yet


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

geraldandannie said:


> JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:
> 
> 
> 
> We ourselves have only had two incidences of water ingress, all our current new stock vehicles on inspection appear to be fine.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, Peter
> 
> So, how are the 'fine'? Do thwy have injector covers that stop you seeing the rust? Have you tried to throw a bucket of water at the screen, and see what happens? Also, a photo or two of your engine bays (showing the joint between the two halves of the scuttle) would be most useful to us in understanding how this matter hasn't received the attention it surely now deserves.
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

Hi Gerald,

I can only report what I have been told by Swift and by our Service Manager Glenn Harris.

The 2.3l engine does not have the problem, our 2.8's have the injector cover which would deflect any water.

Our display area fronts the main A21, on a hill and the winds and gales when we get them here, are quite horrendous, we dont need buckets to be honest!

If you want to discuss it further please feel free to give Glenn a ring on 01-580-881288.

I totally agree with you, Fiat warranty is a right pain, I went onto the Fiat stand at the NEC and made it quite clear what I thought of their parts supply and quality control.

*Fiat sit on cloud nine and never acknowledge that problems excist.*

Thats where I started the enquiry about becoming a Service Dealer and then when we got the details, declined as I don't want to be a commercial garage.

I can only advise on the current situation as I know it, MH's with ingress problems still need fixing and that is Fiat's problem at the end of the day, they made the chassis/cab.

In our case, any of our customers (two) with that problem, we are sorting through Fiat as at the end of the day we supplied the van!

Regards

Peter Bartlett


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

Tribute_650 said:


> Just had recall no 4, flash upgrade, and Fiat have also again asked me to have the water ingress recall done but it still only consists of grease and does not stop water going on my uncovered relays. This time my Fiat dealer has said that the Ducatos are made by peugeot and they are working on the proper modification and its out of Fiats hands, does this ring true or is it to deflect my requests for a proper fix?


Ducatos are a Fiat manufactured chassis.

Boxers are a Peugot badged Fiat manufactured chassis

Iveco also use a Fiat manufactured chassis

There are some slight electrical differences.

Its getting like Tesco cornflakes and Kellogs now! Dont ask about the flat lcd screens, they are even worse with clones and badging...............

Regards

Regards

Regards


----------



## cabby

We are going to look at a Fleurette on a Fiat chassis on Friday down at Portsmouth, should I bother untill all this has been sorted or just go and buy a Swift at Johns Cross.Was going to look at a Rapido 7090 at Wokinghjam, but they do not have it in stock,only a 990M. too far to go to Brownhill, thats a pity did I hear someone say. :lol: one can get this range in France on a Renault or Citroen.why not over here is what I ask,in fact will ask.

cabby


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

cabby said:


> We are going to look at a Fleurette on a Fiat chassis on Friday down at Portsmouth, should I bother untill all this has been sorted or just go and buy a Swift at Johns Cross.Was going to look at a Rapido 7090 at Wokinghjam, but they do not have it in stock,only a 990M. too far to go to Brownhill, thats a pity did I hear someone say. :lol: one can get this range in France on a Renault or Citroen.why not over here is what I ask,in fact will ask.
> 
> cabby


Do you take sugar in your coffee? Eggs sunny side up?

ccasion5:


----------



## cabby

Many thanks for the offer, but no sugar, will be there on thurs 29th.

cabby


----------



## johnc

*Contacted VSOA*

Telephoned VOSA to express my concern over the wall of silence from Peugeot and to call specifically about my engine cutting out and the worry over water leaking into the wiper arms etc. Very nice gentleman said that this was a concern to the Vehicle Safety group and he would send me a defect form. He added that photographs of problem areas would be a help.

John C.


----------



## johnc

*Alternator*



Glengyle said:


> Can someone please post a picture of the alternator (2.2l 100mj) so I can check if it's rusting. thanks.


Glengyle.

The alternator may not look rusty as it is mainly aluminium alloy but it will have developed a "fur" type of corrosion on the outside. On the Peugeot engine it is to the left looking at the engine from the front and directly down from the front of the engine. Best way to find it is look for the belt drive to all of the ancillary items such as power steering and water pump etc. As I said you should not be looking for red rust in this area but grey fur.

Regards

John (near Glasgow)


----------



## 96299

*Re: Contacted VSOA*



johnc said:


> Telephoned VOSA to express my concern over the wall of silence from Peugeot and to call specifically about my engine cutting out and the worry over water leaking into the wiper arms etc. Very nice gentleman said that this was a concern to the Vehicle Safety group and he would send me a defect form. He added that photographs of problem areas would be a help.
> 
> John C.


Will contact VOSA myself tomorrow.Cant believe we haven`t gone down this route before now. 8O

steve


----------



## Telbell

Cabby-pm on way


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Contacted VSOA*



Chigman said:


> johnc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Telephoned VOSA to express my concern over the wall of silence from Peugeot and to call specifically about my engine cutting out and the worry over water leaking into the wiper arms etc. Very nice gentleman said that this was a concern to the Vehicle Safety group and he would send me a defect form. He added that photographs of problem areas would be a help.
> 
> John C.
> 
> 
> 
> Will contact VOSA myself tomorrow.Cant believe we haven`t gone down this route before now. 8O
> 
> steve
Click to expand...

Hi Steve

Well actually before I called today to be given the info about the defect reporting thingy i had called them *TWICE* at no point did they mention anything about it!!!!! However could be that I never got through to the correct department. What staggered me though was that *they* the *safety* branch hadn't heard of it either  8O 8O  Considering Fiat said nearly 4 weeks ago recall was imminent for the safety branch not to be involved is a wee bit suss if you ask me!!! However chappie did say that just because they know nothing doesn't mean that it is not somewhere in cyberspace!!! The tel no is on one of my posts above or over page!! Good luck the more of us that do this the better as apparently one of the ways they decide on recalls is info from the end user ie us scuttlegate victims!!

Found it 0117 9543 200 ask for Vehicle Safety Branch!!


----------



## 96299

Thanks carol.Will look for Tel no. now.

steve


----------



## christopherobin

*alternator*

Glengyle

Picture of rusty alternator










Chris


----------



## Glengyle

Thanks Chris and John, going out to check it shortly.


----------



## johnc

*Pegueot full recall*

I got a call from Peugeot Customer Service this morning stating that Quote "_It is almost certain that Peugeot will issue a full recall on the problem relating to the water ingress._

However I am still going to send off the information to VOSA

John C


----------



## GerryD

An update on my progress. I haven't spoken to our local dealer since I first posted the Fiat service bulletin numbers as at that time the service bulletins had only been announced two days before and he couldn't give me any more information.
I have spoken to the Fiat Dealer today and he confirms that there are 6 service bulletins for my vehicle and that to his knowledge all dealers have been forwarded a stock of parts necessary to carry out all of the work. The work is scheduled to take a full day. The Dealer also confirmed that the correct warranty start date was shown (it seems that this is a function of the dealer).
Still haven't had a letter but in view of the fact that I seem to recall reading a posting on this forum that indicated that letters wouold not be sent out before 26th Nov, I suppose I shouldn't expect one yet.
The quandry now is when to book the MH in for the work. I'm thinking that in view of the expected low mileage I might leave it to half term in mid Feb.


----------



## 101075

Had my warrenty work carried out today by Fiat, 3 jobs as follows

1 Anti corrosion stuff applied to engine head
2 Streering rack gaitors checked for grease
3 Cover fitted to starter motor

They are waiting for the engine cover and will contact me when they have it.


----------



## geraldandannie

Diabalo said:


> 3 Cover fitted to starter motor


Whaaaat? Where did this come from? That's a new one on me. :roll:

Gerald


----------



## 107012

*water water everywhere, not a drop to drink*

Hi, i have been back to the fiat dealer today to look at the water problems after they did a repair last week.

On careful inspection the center joint that was sealed was ok but water was coming in from other areas.

over the top of the bonnet seal when the scuttle was full
through a non grommet filled hole on the drivers side
over the joint on the left as the water does not have a drain there
through the joints on both sides of the body work above the headlights, this feeding water directly onto the ecu.........

Instead of waiting for a bang i am going to return the vehicle to the dealer next wednesday for a repair. I dont want to say a bodge again as the engineer is trying his best...

soon for the season of good will to all fiat employees!
(2008 model adria twin)


----------



## carolgavin

*Advice please?*

Hi chaps and chapesses can anyone enlighten me on the process of cleaning the rust off the injectors??? Do they take them out?? Dust round about them?? What do they use and what is that waxoyl stuff?? One other question what do they seal the scuttle with??? Silicon?? Something else??
Sorry to be a pain but I kinda need to know ASAP!! Have had inspection not able to say much on open forum jepordise case etc etc. Have today cleared my inbox though :wink:


----------



## grahamw

Lbusdriver

I understand your point about not wanting to use the word "bodge" as the engineer working on your vehicle is trying his best. The truth is that Fiat are only allowing him to bodge it. Ask him to contact Fiat and pressurise them to allow him to do a professional job. He'll know what needs to be done. Re-design the scuttle!

Graham


----------



## 107012

*water water everywhere, not a drop to drink*

Graham

I am having the bodge works done on wednesday but the point i was making was that the problem is much bigger than just the scuttle.

If you look closely at the panels above and around the lights then add some water you will see that it falls into the engine bay above the electrics. On a ford/vauxhall or any other car there is a gutter to collect and move that water away, not on this vehicle.

The windsceen is also a bad design in that it is mounted under the scuttle, water runs against the top of the scuttle mount. The screen should be set into the scuttle for the water to move away.

I think we need to keep our current vehicles healthy by any means, i don't fancy a breakdown in europe let alone the uk.

Keep the pressure on fiat, but stay on the road.

Keith, OH of the bus driver.


----------



## Autoquest

One cm square draft excluder in white affixed to the underside of the bonnet along the outer edge; seals the engine bay completely and looks surprisingly neat/good. This, along with the 'ski run' keeps my engine bay 99% dry.


----------



## 101075

Autoquest said:


> One cm square draft excluder in white affixed to the underside of the bonnet along the outer edge; seals the engine bay completely and looks surprisingly neat/good. This, along with the 'ski run' keeps my engine bay 99% dry.


Any chance of a pickie?


----------



## grahamw

Keith

I agree with you entirely and the bodges are necessary as an interim measure to protect our vehicles and allow trouble free usage.

The scuttle though is about 95% of the problem. A strip of "gaffer" tape across the bottom of my windscreen proves this by keeping the engine and electrics just about dry. The next problem is drainage out of the scuttle which only an adaptation or redesign can deal with (see the modifications introduced by Swift). The bonnet edges do need attention as well I agree but the solution to that does appear more straightforward compared to the scuttle for the reasons you point out.

Graham


----------



## 96299

All good pints above people,but can we have some photos of any mods to help others with temp fixes.

steve


----------



## 108449

*just about to collect 2008 adria twin*

Hi everyone,

I have been reading about all your probs with this water ingress. I am about to collect my new van 2008 adria twin, have put down deposit.

I now wonder if I should walk away?

:roll:

Can anyone give me the latest on this, what are your thoughts?

I will also support your cause by joining your list.

cheers

Mark


----------



## dilly

Get the dealer to prove to you it does not leak, if it does or he wont test it then walk away


----------



## GerryD

Gasher,
Whilst this is an issue, you should draw your own conclusions as to whether you should walk away. Best advice is to get the chassis number from the dealer and then speak to your local Fiat dealer. He will be able to tell you if any of the service bulletins apply to your vehicle. If they do then get the MH dealer to have them sorted before you collect the van.
If then, at collection you are not happy with the quality then you still have the option to reject the van.
Be guided by the Fiat dealer and not the MH dealer, he is likely to be impartial. After all he will be responsible for any warranty work even though he has not had any of the profit. He will therefore not want you to be unhappy and keep coming back.
I and many other contributors believe that although this matter needs to be sorted, the fact still remains that this is an excellent base vehicle.
The other point to consider is that if the Adria Twin is your ideal van then you do not have a choice of base vehicle. 
The likely scenario is that your Adria will be a 2008 model on a 2008 chassis and therefore all modifications have been done.
Good luck and enjoy your new MH
Gerry


----------



## 107012

Mark

My van is the 2008 model which we picked up in september. It does have the problems but it is a cracking van. We went away for the several trips in october covering 2000 miles. I love it, its great.

Kith


----------



## carolgavin

*Database*

Hi guys still looking for anyone who has not yet done so to add their details to the database thread. Link to it and the updated version of spreadsheet is on my sig below.

Please add your details it would make me very happy  I would like to be happy, you have the power


----------



## 104869

Goodmorning,
Well today is the day of THE GREAT FIART FIX. 
I m off to my fiart dealer to see what kind of job they can do.
They say it is going to take three days.
O.K Bye for now
Andrew


----------



## 96299

ritariviera181 said:


> Goodmorning,
> Well today is the day of THE GREAT FIART FIX.
> I m off to my fiart dealer to see what kind of job they can do.
> They say it is going to take three days.
> O.K Bye for now
> Andrew


Lets hope they do a satisfactory job for you Andrew.Dont forget to report back on here.

steve


----------



## carolgavin

*4 weeks today since VOSA announcement*

Well guys and gals today is *the* day. The long awaited VOSA safety recall was announced 4 weeks ago and so should be today. Now as you all know the Vehicle safety branch at VOSA had never heard of it so I am not holding my breath!!!!!!!!!
Am holding off till after 9!! Party at my house if it's there


----------



## 96299

*Re: 4 weeks today since VOSA announcement*



carolgavin said:


> Well guys and gals today is *the* day. The long awaited VOSA safety recall was announced 4 weeks ago and so should be today. Now as you all know the Vehicle safety branch at VOSA had never heard of it so I am not holding my breath!!!!!!!!!
> Am holding off till after 9!! Party at my house if it's there


Fingers and everything else crossed 8O

steve


----------



## geraldandannie

Just out of interest, I had a little look:

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/default.asp

Nothing yet  Although, to be fair, it was said to be "four weeks" from the meeting. There was no specific stated date.

My guess is that it's going to be 5-6 weeks from the meeting, give or take a week or two ... let's say after Christmas?

As I've said before, I'm in no rush to take time out to have a half-baked job done. I'd rather wait until the 'proper' fix is done. Mind you, that could be many, many months from now. :evil:

Gerald


----------



## christopherobin

So we should be getting a "Italian Letter" today !!!!
Will have to make sure I get to the postman today before the dog!

Chris


----------



## Briarose

Just got our copy of the caravan club mag on page 7 there is some info and then the bottom of page 9 again saying 'Fiat says this is a cosmetic issue but that they have designed a plastic shroud and issued instructions for it to be retro fitted to all existing vehicles together with a better sealing of the scuttle where the water has been entering'................it states 'owners will be contacted inviting them to contact their dealer for an appointment for the free work to be carred out'.

The mag then says that they haven't spoken to Peugeot or Citreon about this but as the vehicles come off the same Italian assembly line it seems logical for them to have a similar campaign.

HTH Nette


----------



## johnc

*Waiting for Defect Form*



geraldandannie said:


> Just out of interest, I had a little look:
> 
> http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/default.asp
> 
> Nothing yet  Although, to be fair, it was said to be "four weeks" from the meeting. There was no specific stated date.
> 
> My guess is that it's going to be 5-6 weeks from the meeting, give or take a week or two ... let's say after Christmas?
> 
> As I've said before, I'm in no rush to take time out to have a half-baked job done. I'd rather wait until the 'proper' fix is done. Mind you, that could be many, many months from now. :evil:
> 
> Gerald


I contacted VOSA to request a defect form but have not received it yet. Anyone got their form yet.

regards John C


----------



## carolgavin

Hi John even though I was first to ask I haven't got mine yet   
Joe (urbanracer) has his already!!!!!


----------



## MikeH

Hi.
Received my form from VOSA nextday (Friday) Filled it in and posted it back today.

Mike H.


----------



## christopherobin

Hi

I emailed them and they emailed the form by return

Filled in form and emailed back.

Chris

[email protected]


----------



## grahamw

Hi. 
Received my form from VOSA Friday after asking for it two days earlier. Returned it on Saturday.

Graham


----------



## 96299

phoned vosa in the later part of last week ( thurs I think ) and got form today.Will fill in tonight for early post tomorrow.

steve


----------



## Spacerunner

My 'van has gone in today for five recall jobs to be done. they are as follows.

5219....Steering rack

5221....Corroding injectors

5247....Fuel injection flash

5248....Starter fuse

5251....Power steering pipe

If anyone knows more details on these recalls, could they let us know what problems are being fixed.


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi John

As far as I can remember, here's some more info:

5219....Steering rack - I think this is a check the seals and regrease

5221....Corroding injectors - some 'stuff' is applied to remove the corrosion, and then Waxoyl is applied to stop it happening again

5247....Fuel injection flash - a 'reprogramming' of the Engine Management System to stop a warning light coming on

5248....Starter fuse - this is a fairly new one - maybe the fuse is being uprated?

5251....Power steering pipe - check fixing and relocate if necessary

Any further infor you can get would be good. But no mention of the water ingress? No injector cover?

Gerald


----------



## Spacerunner

geraldandannie said:


> Hi John
> 
> As far as I can remember, here's some more info:
> 
> 5219....Steering rack - I think this is a check the seals and regrease
> 
> 5221....Corroding injectors - some 'stuff' is applied to remove the corrosion, and then Waxoyl is applied to stop it happening again
> 
> 5247....Fuel injection flash - a 'reprogramming' of the Engine Management System to stop a warning light coming on
> 
> 5248....Starter fuse - this is a fairly new one - maybe the fuse is being uprated?
> 
> 5251....Power steering pipe - check fixing and relocate if necessary
> 
> Any further infor you can get would be good. But no mention of the water ingress? No injector cover?
> 
> Gerald


Thanks Gerald. No mention of the water problem at all. All they said last week when I booked up was, current production models had been modified but they were still waiting for a recall on older models.


----------



## peachy

*Vehicle safety recall notification Fiat ducato*

Hi 
just to let you know we had our recall notice yesterday.It is for Steering-possible stiffness & front windscreen wiper operation is this the same as everyone elses?

Lin


----------



## FionaG

We have had the peugeot fix done 9 on a 115 (a long tube from the offside hole down to under the wheel area buit the hole on the nearside is still the same....and water is still pouring thro. We are taking this up with both the garage and Peugeot.... watch this space

My first post so sorry if I put it in the wrong place!!


----------



## carolgavin

Peachy and FionaG could you please please add your details to the database thread first link on my sig below  We are trying to collate a spreadsheet (second link on my sig) so that we can see exactly how many are affected. It will help us all I think as it can be printed out if your dealer is giving it the old "never heard of that" speech.
FionaG welcome to the forum, I realise that if you post your details on the thread it will use up one of your five free posts. Please consider joining as you will have unlimited posts, be eligble for discounts etc etc. This site is highly addictive and I can guarantee you will meet lots of new friends! Come on in the waters lovely :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 



PS I know I keep saying this but anyone who hasn't yet put their details on the database thread please please do so!!!


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

Just got up and listened to a voice mail from Fiat

"Hello Mr W.......etc etc. This is xxxxxxx from Fiat UK. You recently had a few recalls looked at on your Ducato, there are a couple more. Please 'phone me back and let me know if you want me to book the van in to a dealer for the work to be done".

I have tried to phone back.....

Meanwhile, I have 'phoned the Fiat dealer and the recalls are

5247 - Fuel inj flash
5248 - starter fuse.

No sign of an engine cover though!

Russell


----------



## EdsMH

*Quick Update*

My MH went off to Fiat today for 5 recalls. They came and collected as they had messed up on our previous appointment so reasonable customer service.

The letter I got from Fiat was pretty useless in that all it said was that there were recalls and I should call the usual customer service number. Expecting to get an update on the case I got another lovely sounding lady with no information other than the recal numbers and headers and I should talk to my dealer. Oh well...... 8O

I sent a letter with the van as I want to know exactly what they are doing. Here is an extract:

Thank you for collecting the above vehicle today to carry out the required recalls and warranty work. From talking to Fiat directly, I understand that the following recalls apply to my vehicle:

5209 - Differential bearing
5219 - Grease steering rack
5221 - Clean corroding injectors
5247 - Injection 'flash' upgrade
5248 - Starter fuse

This is rather a lot and I should be grateful if when the work is completed that you provide me with the details of what the defect was and what the remedy has been so that it can form part of the record for the vehicle when I sell it on. Also as a professional engineer I would like to understand exactly what the defects are. If it is easier not printing off paper then by all means you can email me the technical notices from Fiat on each subject. I note that the temporary fix for the engine bay water ingress is only to try and clean the area around the injectors and not fix the root problem at this time although Fiat have promised a permanent fix further on in the year. Does this include checking that the injectors can be moved and are not corroded in? There are two screws that hold a fluid reservoir on the drivers side of the engine bay which are corroding rapidly and need replacing.

My motorhome dealer has improved the seal on the scuttle but water still gets in and sits on the injectors and falls on other key components which is not satisfactory in the longer term. I have tried to keep the damp off since getting the van by using WD40 which has kept the worst at bay. The vehicle's fuel consumption is really poor and I do wonder if the injectors are being affected by the water. I understand a redesign is going on and a cover will be applied at some later date to protect the top of the engine. Blah blah

Sorry it is a bit long. MH has not come back this evening but I will let everyone know what info I get (if any) and take some photos.

Regards

Ed


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi Ed

Thanks for taking the time to let us know what's happening.

The actual recalls / fixes are pretty much in line with what's known generally. What is continuing to amaze me is that there's no news at all on the root cause of the problem we're talking about - that of water getting into the engine bay. 

On the VOSA defect form, I emailed Paul Taviner (thanks for the link, Chris) and got the form by return on Tuesday. However, I haven't filled it in, since to go ahead with the report, the fault would need to be a 'safety defect', which "is a feature of design or construction liable to cause significant injury or death." Any ideas on how to phrase the response? Where is the significant injury? I guess I could use the 'water on the fusebox which could cause engine failure or fire' and 'corrosion on the wiper spindles which could cause early failure of the wipers'.

Any thoughts?

Back on the Fiat fix for the water ingress, we have (from memory) water coming in through:

1) The split between the 2 halves of the scuttle
2) The drainage holes
3) The sides of the bonnet

Any others?

Gerald


----------



## carolgavin

Hi Gerald was talking to my safety bloke from VOSA and he said water getting in to the wipers could cause them to fail whilst being driven. It is a legal requirement to have windscreen wipers which are functioning correctly. If they are defective and do not work you are commitiing an offence under Vehicle Construction and Use regulations. Purely from a saftey point of view if they are not functioning correctly or cease to function whilst being driven (there is every chance of this, as water is able to get into the electrics) you are a hazard on the road to yourself and others.
This is more or less what I am going to put. Same with the injectors the vehicle could fail whilst being driven if water penetrates (albeit this may be worse case scenario)


----------



## 104869

Hi all
Just an update , Collected M/H from Fiat today following recall work.
Had the following done 
1 5221 CORRODING INJECTORS & WATER INGRESS WORK TO SCUTTLE
2 5247 FUEL INJ FLASH UPDATE
3 5251 POWER S PIPE
I dont know what the 3rd is but its done.
On inspection the job done by fiat( platts Stoke on Trent) is clean, dry & well done.
There are no leaks and I seem to be getting more mpg as well. I'd say approx 28 - 30 per gal.
So see how it goes.
There was about ten m/h in today all for fix to water ingress.
Any one one line taken theres to Platts??
thanks this site has been a BIG help
Andrew


----------



## geraldandannie

ritariviera181 said:


> 3 5251 POWER S PIPE
> I dont know what the 3rd is but its done.


I think they move or check the fixing of the power steering pipe.

Thanks for the update, Andrew.

Gerald


----------



## Kairo

Hi.

Same problem in Norway with water ingress.... 
Ducato X250 Engines have frozen, and time belt have "jumped" out of correct position when started. (Not mine)

My Fiat dealer have replaced the scuttle, with a new one with drain in the middle.

The scuttle joint was not god enough fixed, so i used TEC 7 myself, and sealed it.

Some pictures; http://eurofoto.no/show_image.php?bid=84536837


----------



## christopherobin

Hi Kario

Welcome to the forum.
Sorry you have the same problem as us.
It's all over the world!

Have you seen











Best wishes

Chris


----------



## 102685

There was about ten m/h in today all for fix to water ingress. 
Any one one line taken theres to Platts?? 
thanks this site has been a BIG help 
Andrew........................

Ours was the blue Dethleffs.

160 Multijet

5219 Steering Rack Lube
5221 Injector Corrosion Protection
5222 ABS Control Unit Cover
5223 Wiper Motor Water Ingress
5247 ECU Flash Update
5248 Incorrect Starter Fuse

Bryan


----------



## Tucano

One week after I took our van back to have the "Fix"
The nice Mr Delaney, Fiat Slough, Customer Relations, rang me today to see if I was happy. Certainly I replied, haven't seen the van for a whole week, brilliant.
They are waiting for an engine cover, on back order, but know nothing about a cover for the alternator.
Don't quote me he said, BUT, the company took about a year to correct the fault on the production line for new vehicles, re the water ingress, and it will probably be a similar time to apply the result to existing vehicles.
I have told the nice people at Northern Commercials to keep the van until they have completed all the work I want corrected. They are going to look into the matter and ring me back.
The official line with regard to the juddering whilst reversing is to accelerate more !!
Fiat are unaware of any electrical problem relating to "cut outs" whilst driving.
I have not had this happen to me yet, I just wanted to hear what Fiat had to say on the matter as related by others on this forum.
Mr Delaney said that Fiat should maybe look into this forum and probably post on it although it was not his departments responsibility, he would talk to his superiors about it.
Will keep you all posted as we go along although I do not have regular access to the net these days.
Regards,
Norman


----------



## 96299

TUCANO said:


> Mr Delaney said that Fiat should maybe look into this forum and probably post on it although it was not his departments responsibility, he would talk to his superiors about it.
> 
> Norman


Thats exactly what Mr Delaney said to me." I will talk to my superiors about it,that was well over a week ago.

Well FiART,if you do happen to look,I`ve had my engine cut out whilst driving,albeit very slowly. 

steve


----------



## geraldandannie

Thanks for your updates, Kario, Bryan and Norman.

In a way, it's nice to see we have friends even in Norway suffering the same experiences.

Norman - it's a sad story, really. Delay, delay, delay, and no one from Fiat actually coming forward to tell us what's happening, what they're doing about it. Oh, how I wish we could have a transparent, truthful, and honest statement. Life would be so much better if we knew what was happening.

Gerald


----------



## 96299

I would just like to add here that my new scuttle ( weeks and weeks ago ) is still leaking and the sealant has failed that sticks it to the windscreen. 8O Absolutely no surprise there then. :? 

steve


----------



## Glengyle

Can anyone tell me is the Waxoyl treatment of the injectors a spray treatment like WD40 or is it some sort of laquer that sets hard?


----------



## carolgavin

Hi all interesting updates. My own update is that as this saga continues my disgust levels at the sheer audacity and arrogance of Peugeot rockets exponentially with every e-mail "proposal" I receive. Currently their proposal is roughly yes we will repair it, no there are no recalls, no we cannot (will not) tell you what we will do to repair it and we also will not tell you exactly where we will repair it.
My response is unprintable!!!


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

Glengyle said:


> Can anyone tell me is the Waxoyl treatment of the injectors a spray treatment like WD40 or is it some sort of laquer that sets hard?


http://www.waxoyl.com/en/produkte/120-4.htm

Basically it forms a water proof flexible coating over the injectors and protects electrical components against damp, can be purchased in a aersol spray can for DIY.

Regards


----------



## Glengyle

I was going to leave the recalls on my van until a fix comes along for the scuttle/drainage holes but I might be waiting a long time. Two weeks ago my local Fiat dealer said there were 2 recalls :-
5219 Steering rack
5220 Starter motor
I just called Fiat Motorhome to see what had happened to the letter they had promised at the start of October - they have now given me a case number and I should receive letter shortly. Also a further two recalls have appeared:-
5221 Clean corroding injectors
5248 Starter fuse
Really want to get the injector treatment done as puddles have started appearing around a couple of them - despite scuttle having been sealed by Fiat :evil:


----------



## Glengyle

Thanks JohnsCross


----------



## EdsMH

*Update*

My mh was delivered back today and Soul's at Milton Keynes have done a reasonable job. Their communication so far has been good and they have made it easy to get the work done.

Their service bays just about cope with the Argos but they asked could they do the bearing check - Recall 5209 when the workshops were quieter. I have said yes on the basis Fiat might ..just might...have got the 3 litre covers ready by then. I did try to get them to let me have the tech advice notes but they felt they could not. The following are the words in the short email report they gave which is pretty much what we already had:

Recall 5209- unable to carry out, as per conversation.
Recall 5219- steering rack boot removed, greased and the replaced.
Recall 5221- injectors sprayed to avoid corrosion.
Recall 5247- connected to examiner, carried out a flash update which 
gives the ecu a new memory as there was a fault with the fan.
Recall 5248- replaced CAL4 power box fuse.

I have attached a piccie of the injector area which has been sprayed with a white rubbery coating which I assume is the Waxoyl stuff (although I always thout Waxoyl was black?). The engine does not look as clean and pretty as it did but if it prevents long term corrosion until 'the final fix' is done then I can live with it. Looks like it was brushed on and not sprayed.

I have only driven the mh a short distance but the van feels a lot smoother and pulls from even lower revs very cleanly so I wonder if the flash upgrade was a complete new engine management map. I will be keeping an eye on fuel consumption to check.

The only bit I feel I am missing is that there is still no clarity from Fiat to us or our dealers as to what the final solution to stop water getting in to the injector area is. I do hope that their customer service team recognises the value of proactive communication now but I doubt it.

Ed


----------



## Zebedee

Apologies if this is a repeat as I have been out of touch for the last week or so.

I was at the Autosleepers factory this morning and had a look at a new Nuevo. The engine was fitted with a cover which was in place when the base vehicle arrived at the factory. Everything else about the scuttleappreared just the same. This is on the Peugeot base vehicle, so Fiat may be different.

Cheers


----------



## Rapide561

*Scuttlegate*

Hi

A pal of mine has had a look at my scuttle. Part of his job day to day is fitting windscreens. He does not think that the scuttle could ever be made as a permanent seal without removing the windscreen and maybe rejigging the whole design. He did say he could be very much mistaken.

Russell


----------



## LAZZA

Hi All 
Just received December's issue of Caravan Club Mag,and in it is a small article about water ingress on the new fiat based campers.It says that fiat have designed a plastic shroud that covers the top of the engine and will be writing to all owners to have this retro fitted by their dealers free of charge.At long last! Just the water pouring over the electrics under the bonnet to fix now then!
Cheers all Lazza


----------



## sallytrafic

*Re: Scuttlegate*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> A pal of mine has had a look at my scuttle. Part of his job day to day is fitting windscreens. He does not think that the scuttle could ever be made as a permanent seal without removing the windscreen and maybe rejigging the whole design. He did say he could be very much mistaken.
> 
> Russell


Much as I said here on this thread five pages ago :roll:

>here<


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Scuttlegate*



sallytrafic said:


> Rapide561 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> A pal of mine has had a look at my scuttle. Part of his job day to day is fitting windscreens. He does not think that the scuttle could ever be made as a permanent seal without removing the windscreen and maybe rejigging the whole design. He did say he could be very much mistaken.
> 
> Russell
> 
> 
> 
> Much as I said here on this thread five pages ago :roll:
> 
> >here<
Click to expand...

I remember you saying that Frank and I happen to agree unfortunately Fiat and Peugeot seem to be the only ones that don't!!!! It is good to get it brought to the fore again though!


----------



## 106003

for information the corrossion inhibitor used is not waxoyl as reported but is Dinitrol 4010 which is a cwax based protector and will not affect any wiring.
secondly prior to its application all components should be cleaned with a substance called Dexox 12 which converts the rust.
These can be ordered under Fiat part numbers 71749811 and 71749812.
I have available a full list of parts and part numbers which are available to carry out the mod to the scuttle and the engine cover for 2.2 and 2.3 engines if anybody would like the list please pm meThe mods will monly be carried out by Fiat dealers to motor homes and must be requested by the customer.


----------



## MikeH

*VOSA reply*

Hi all.
Had a reply from VOSA today, reference my defect report. Says that the information I provided, will be forwarded to the Manufacturer to be used in their investigation and any associated tests. Will write to inform me of conclusions, but investigations could take some time to complete.
Mike H.


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi Mike

Thanks for that update. Shall we hold our breath for the results of the investigation?

Your mention of VOSA reminded me - the long-awaited recall(s) are up.

Enter the data for "Fiat" and "Ducato" :: here :: and you get:

:: Brake recall ::

and

:: steering recall ::

and

:: wiper recall ::

as well as a :: tyre recall :: although the latter only affects 368 vehicles, so probably not us.

Check your chassis numbers against the ones quoted on the website, but we should now be receiving (any day now, I'm sure) written recall information.

Note the water ingress mods are not the subject of a recall, but will (presumably) be done at the same time. Oooo, I can hardly wait :roll:

Gerald


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

Interesting just found this, lasted edited 17th October 2007.

I really do like Peter Smiths comments on behalf of *Swift*, he doesn't mince words! I also noticed the rather feeble Peugot response!

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/fiat-water-ingress.shtml

Progress its seems.


----------



## some-where-in-oxford

I had the following done yesterday.

5219 Steering Rack
5221 Corroding Injectors
5222 ABS Control Unit
5223 Front Wiper
5247 Fuel Injector Flash
5251 Power Steering Pie.

There was no cover fitted over the engine. 

Fiat called me last week to see which dealer I would like to have the work done by. Hour later they called me back to say that it had been booked in the following Tuesday, Yesterday.

This morning we had rain, checked the engine and still some water, so it was not a completely satisfactory repair. But not as much water coming through this time.

An engine cover would have been a better solution, as by its design the scuttle will not stay sealed for long.

We left to go to Swindon early yesterday morning in the dark, noticed that the illumination around the heater control buttons was not lit. Mentioned this to the dealer and they also fitted a new heater control unit.

Dealer said that they do not fit covers to all the re calls, they look up your chassis number on the system at Fiat and only do the repairs authirised by Fiat.

Anyone else with 2.3 engine? Have you had a cover fitted?


----------



## Autoquest

My Peugeot dealer has ordered an engine cover and we are waiting for the stock to arrive - They are like rocking horse doodah at the moment!

What was the Power Steering Pie like?


----------



## grahamw

Hi some-where-in-oxford

When I took my MH in for the first attempt at the Fiat fix no engine cover was fitted either. I asked my dealer to follow this up with Fiat. He said, and I quote "Fiat will supply one if the customer insists that one it is fitted".

Still waiting for a response from Fiat about my "excessively corroded alternator" (dealer's description not mine). I can see I shall have to start "insisting" on that now. Regarding vehicles they really are the worst organisation I ever have had dealings with.


Graham


----------



## 106003

would evrybody concerned please remember that Fiat will not carry out the engine cover Mod unless it is specifically requested by the customer.
It is not the dealers fault they are under instruction from Fiat not to do it unless the customer makes an issue.
So make that issue if you want the cover.


----------



## whitefoot

Hi Mildew Peugeot refuse to fit an engine cover and I have sent many letters and e-mails,they say they have no technical bulletin to carry out this work and also say they do not have a part number for it.
The local dealer also says he cannot find the part number.

Have you the fiat part number if I can find this I will buy a Fiat one and fit it myself its the 100bhp 2.2 model.


----------



## DC4JC

I was lead to believe that the cover for the 3 ltr version on the X250 was to be available by December. 
Well here we are, anyone have any knowledge of the progress and availability re: same?

I'd like to ask Peter of Swift;

a) are the 3ltr versions from Fiat now being supplied with the cover fitted?

b) did Fiat provide covers to Swift for any 3 ltr versions retrospectively?

c) what does he/Swift know about the current situation re: the supply of these covers and the fitting of same?
Is it a case of those that shout loudest will get them fitted, or will Fiat do the decent thing and make the offer to all? 

I've deferred any 'remedial' work associated with the water ingress waiting on the supply of the cover as I do not want to spend my time going back and forth to Fiat. Some of us have to work!
So, apart from the wax treatment I've put Fiat off. But with the weather as it is now I could really do with getting this sorted out, as could many more I'm sure.


----------



## EdsMH

Mildew

Thanks for the tech notes download on sealing the screen. The pages made interesting reading and the engine in the photos looked to be in a terrible state corrosion wise.

Thanks again

Ed


----------



## peachy

Hi 
We have just returned from Germany in our Fiat 2007 where it rained and rained. We had to put plastic cover over the engine while on site and had to put this big sighn on steering wheel incase we forgot to take it off before we set off. It is due to go for recall soon. Having said that it drives like a dream or so my OH says. I would not know nor do I want to.


----------



## 105062

Not sure if yall have seen Fiat's water ingress solution ( too many replies to check so sorry if repeating) but if not I have posted pic here (No Scuttle mod!)
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-37127.html


----------



## grahamw

Hi All

Had my vehicle back in at Brownhills, Newark yesterday to have a new scuttle fitted as the original was too badly distorted to be able to get it to bed down satisfactorily on the windscreen.

I asked Craig, the service manager, if he could take me through what he was going to do. I spent some time explaining my reservations about the Fiat fix, particularly the difficulties of getting a water tight seal of the scuttle to the screen and also importantly the small drain holes at the end of the scuttle channel.

He showed me a 14 page document from Fiat dated 4th October 2007 which had text and illustrations detailing the process. There was certainly more to it than I thought and I got the feeling that these are revised instructions. First of all the scuttle has to be removed and a foam seal applied to the top edge and ends of the scuttle panel. This seal sits in from the edge so that the foam strip does not lift the scuttle away from the screen. Sealant is applied onto the surface of the foam strip prior to reassembly. The fact that there is a foam strip between the scuttle and windscreen sealant may well help the scuttle to stay watertight even if there is slight movement of the plastic scuttle. The foam strip I believe is neoprene so it will not absorb water. Sealant is also applied to the areas between the pillar and windscreen to stop water driving down the small channel that used to be there. I recall Peter Smith at Swift raising this as an issue with Fiat.

The instructions simply state that the two small drain holes at the end of the scuttle channel should be opened out to 10mm. I explained to Craig that I was unhappy about this as the water would simply discharge into the engine bay. The problem is exacerbated on my Swift Bolero because of the side upstands on the roof which channel water down the two front corners of the windscreen. I said I would probably fit some drain tubes to these holes. Craig suggested that he'd have a look where the discharge would go and what might be necessary.

Went to collect the vehicle and found that the scuttle sat tightly to the windscreen and appears watertight. Seal between the two section of the scuttle panel was tight and solid. Two 10mm plastic drain tubes attached to the enlarged drain holes. Rusting screws replaced securing plastic tank and cover fitted over injectors. 

I'm well impressed with Craig at Brownhills taking the time to talk me through what was going to be done and also fitting the two drain tubes. He's obviously very aware that the water ingress problem has caused a lot of frustration for customers.

It's not an ideal solution to bond the scuttle to the windscreen but I'm suspicious that the design of the bodywork upon which the bottom edge of the windscreen sits does not lend itself to a more elegant solution. Only time will tell if it's a serviceable solution.

Well done Craig and Brownhills though.


Graham


----------



## 90030

*Fiat ducato safety recall*



My Mclouis Lagan 250 motorhome, based on Fiat Ducato was recalled for the latest safety check.
I cannot find out what work was carried out and was given no documents on completion. When I enquired I was told all the work required by Fiat had been carried out.
Since then I have experienced electrical problems (lights, pump not working and control panel does not show the light to indicate that I am connected to mains electric. the garage said that I needed a new leisure battery, which has not cured the problem. 
Could the problem be connected to the safety recall or just coincidence?
My motorhome is 2004 model, I bought new and have only completed 12,000 miles.
Any help or advice most welcome


----------



## zulurita

boberyl

If your Fiat is a 2004 model then it isn't affected by the water ingress issue that the new 2006 Fiats onwards are.

My 2004 model was traded in recently and that had a recall notification just before I traded it in but I left it for the dealer to do as I didn't want to travel up for that and then again to collect new mh.

I believe it was a brake related recall.


----------



## carolgavin

Evening guys and gals! I have been assured by the oh so lovely and helpful chappies at Peugeot that there are currently NO recalls on my van. Isn't that reassuring!! There is nothing showing on the VOSA site however the Fiat one is there. 
I have been told, by the ever so delightfully helpful chappies at Peugeot that my van will be going in this week. They are coming to my home to take it away on a transporter as they are concerned about us having to drive it  How nice of them to be so concerned! What a helpful bunch!
They have also done an about turn on the not telling us what they are going to do with regards to the repairs. 
So watch this space chaps and chapesses!!!!

I am gonna be so hacked off, if after it goes in it has to go back for recalls!!


----------



## Polo

*Peugeot - Water Feature*

Hi Carol. You got the same response as I did when I telephoned our Peugeot dealer last week, and asked if there were any recalls or if there was any news on the 'water feature' to be told politely that no there was nothing on the computer. At least 2 dealerships gave the same rotten answer eh?

Well those lovely people 'Peugeotlot' are so considerate eh! Do hope that you get some sort of result and that you can start to enjoy your motorhome.

We have finally managed to get the black plastic insert back around the awning rail on the offside of our vehicle after it decided to part company whilst travelling down the M1! Not an easy job but at least MOH was able to do it!

Good luck and hope the news is all good from Peugeot.


----------



## Rapide561

*fiat cover*



mildew said:


> would evrybody concerned please remember that Fiat will not carry out the engine cover Mod unless it is specifically requested by the customer.
> It is not the dealers fault they are under instruction from Fiat not to do it unless the customer makes an issue.
> So make that issue if you want the cover.


...and I shall be requesting one tomorrow when I book in for yet another recall!

Recall this and recall that.

Russell


----------



## rowley

I was talking (at a party) with an Iveco service manager. He told me that they have had quite a few motorhomes in for recalls and the ingress problem. I got the impression that all they had been provided with by fiat was the rust treatment. He did say that the problem with Fiat is the lack of spares.
My modifications to the scuttle had been working well until the wind/rain discarded the duct tape covering the 15mm gap on the scuttle seal.


----------



## MikeH

*Injector cover*

Hi all.
Can i please ask who has had the injector cover fitted to a 2.3 130 multijet. Was it automatic or did you have to push hard to get it?
Can reply here or PM. 
Thanks Mike H.


----------



## vmeldrew

Had the following recall work done this week;
5219 - Steering rack
5221 - Corroding injectors
5222 - ABS cntrl unit cover
5223 - Front wiper cover
5247 - Fuel inj flash
5248 - Starter fuse
5251 - Power S pipe

No cover on the 2.3 engine although dealer says all work authorised by Fiat has been done. I intend to take this up with Fiat plus the fact that there is still evidence of rust in the recess on the engine top.


----------



## geraldandannie

Thanks, Victor :wink: 

Pretty much in line with what we're experiencing. Did they do any work to seal, or at least improve on the leak, in the scuttle? I don't think there's a number for it, but it should be done at the same time. Sealing and whatnot.

Gerald


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## vmeldrew

There was a temp fix on the scuttle some time ago which has stopped most of the water getting in.


----------



## Glengyle

I had the following done on Monaday, 2.2l 100multijet engine:

5219 Steering rack
5220 Starter motor???
5221 Clean and coat injectors
5248 Starter fuse

Engine cover (injectors) fitted.
Scuttle sealed in centre, sealed to windscreen and drainage holes each end of scuttle enlarged.


----------



## sweetie

Took our solano 3ltr in for fiat bodge up today 3 items on recall
5221 corroding injectors 
5247 fuel inj flash
5248 starter fuse 
No sealing of scuttle no cover. When asking why was told they done all fiat authorised but while I was there they phoned one of there other depot,s and are going to find out if they can get cover and seal scuttle.So I think I will be on the phone to fiat in the morning to give them some grief. I think as with all of us with this problem we should be keeping a record of time and mileage then forewarding them with a bill at the end as with all of us our time is valuable. Mine was 46mile round trip and a wasted 8 hours and if only I could charge as fiat dealers do about £400.do you think I would get it :twisted: :twisted:


----------



## 93763

Today I phoned the Peugeot dealer who were fixing my brand new motorhome. They tell me they have *replaced the scuttle panel,* which is now the Peugeot recommended fix. I take this to mean that they have replaced the one with the faulty design with the version being fitted to vehicles they are manufacxturing now. But I am not sure. If so, that sounds like good news. Does anyone know anything more?

This does not deal with the rusty injectors and the rusty alternator of course...


----------



## 96299

When I had my scuttle replaced,it was exactly the same as the original one,and yes,you guessed,it still leaks. :? 

steve


----------



## 93763

> When I had my scuttle replaced,it was exactly the same as the original one,and yes,you guessed,it still leaks. Confused
> 
> steve


You do wonder - what is the point of replacing a faulty part with an identical faulty part?

Is there any easy way to distinguish the faulty design from the new, redesigned, part (if it has indeed been redesigned)?


----------



## grahamw

I had my scuttle replaced simply because the original was warped and would have made it impossible to bond to the screen. I gather a number of people have experienced distorted scuttles and have had to have them replaced prior to the Fiat fix.

As I understand it from Fiat customer care the same design of scuttle is still being fitted to models on the assembly line at this very moment with the various work-around fixes being applied to it.

Graham


----------



## sweetie

Spoke to fiat customer care today told them was not happy with yesterdays bodge also scuttle does not fit properly to screen they have now ordered the new cover for injectors and are looking at replacing scuttle probably with one the same. Took quick look at jan MMM while in Becks and it looks if fiat are sending letters to all so that screen can be sealed to screen so hopefully we can all start enjoying our investments without worrying so much


----------



## vmeldrew

vmeldrew said:


> No cover on the 2.3 engine although dealer says all work authorised by Fiat has been done. I intend to take this up with Fiat plus the fact that there is still evidence of rust in the recess on the engine top.


Wrote to Fiat who contacted me the following day having already spoken to dealer and advised them to order cover and look again at other issues.


----------



## ICDSUN

Hi

It is refreshing to see that some people are finally getting a limited response, but we are being sold a pup with this problem in order to get us off Fiat's back.

Bonding the scuttle to the windscreen should be seen as a temporary fix only, not a permanent solution. If you are misfortunate to get a broken screen you will find that the repairing company in all likelihood will not undertake the work as they would be liable for any damage to the scuttle, and they will not expose themselves to the possible costs for any damage.

2 companies at local level I asked the question of said they would not do any extra work other than replace screen, if it was bonded to other parts other than the standard mounting they would not do it as the job would take longer than they would be able to charge for and the possibility of damage to the bonded parts.

Fiat need to re-design the scuttle or produce/modify a rubberised seal between scuttle and screen that can take care of any flexing or movement, by all means seal the joint in the centre, but the present scuttle fix is no more than a quick bodge at our expense

The scuttle in present/bodged form is not fit for purpose.

The Fiat and MH dealers are piggy in the middle on this, Fiat dealers have had no or little revenue from your new MH yet they get all the grief, Yes Fiat will pay them to do the necessary but at a lower rate than they would normally get, MH dealer has his margin but can't do anything about it, in fear of invalidating your Fiat warranty.

Speaking to Fiat about this has shown that one department is not speaking to the others, dealers are not informed of the whole fix, neither are the customer service people given the whole picture, they have instructions for the complete fix in Italian and are still waiting for someone to translate to English. The trade press get a fairy story, print it and believe it, none of them give a damn as they don't pay for their MH's, so they are not going to rock any boats on their readers behalf.

Happy Christmas to all and a drier New Year for you lucky people :wink: 

Chris


----------



## cabby

As this thread has so many comments would it not be a good idea to condense them into an informative comment, for reference purposes.

cabby


----------



## whitefoot

What do you mean cabby to mess with this info now will dilute a lot of the info.
I think it might be changed to Fiat recalls because Peugeot have not released a message like Fiat and to date I am waiting for work to be done on my van the dealer says no recalls apply to my van and after many letters e-mails and telephone calls peugeot refuse to fit the available to fiat owners an engine cover.
My van is a 57 reg and in november we bought a small new car for my wife it could have been a Peugeot but how they treat customers we bought a Ford Focus.
I hope one day they will learn that this treatment of customers will not only stop them getting repeat sales but also other sales to family and friends of customers they have left with this water ingress problem.

To every here have a Happy christmas.


----------



## carolgavin

whitefoot said:


> What do you mean cabby to mess with this info now will dilute a lot of the info.
> I think it might be changed to Fiat recalls because Peugeot have not released a message like Fiat and to date I am waiting for work to be done on my van the dealer says no recalls apply to my van and after many letters e-mails and telephone calls peugeot refuse to fit the available to fiat owners an engine cover.
> My van is a 57 reg and in november we bought a small new car for my wife it could have been a Peugeot but how they treat customers we bought a Ford Focus.
> I hope one day they will learn that this treatment of customers will not only stop them getting repeat sales but also other sales to family and friends of customers they have left with this water ingress problem.
> 
> To every here have a Happy christmas.


Whitefoot try contacting david whitehead at explorer he has been helpful.


----------



## 103699

Hi. With regard to the recall for rusted injectors and water in wipers is this just for m/h with orginal cabs,does it also mean Aclass,the flash and steering will,but have been unable to find an answer on the first two.


DVH


----------



## ICDSUN

DVH

It is only on the vans that use the full cab, most A class use a different cab unit dependent on converter, easy way to check is if you have rust and puddles of water on and around the injectors, then you are seeing the same results as standard cabs, the fix is to prevent them rusting after a clean up and wax type treatment.
I don't recall seeing any owners of A class having this problem, but I may be wrong

Chris


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

ICDSUN said:


> DVH
> 
> It is only on the vans that use the full cab, most A class use a different cab unit dependent on converter, easy way to check is if you have rust and puddles of water on and around the injectors, then you are seeing the same results as standard cabs, the fix is to prevent them rusting after a clean up and wax type treatment.
> I don't recall seeing any owners of A class having this problem, but I may be wrong
> 
> Chris


X 250 engine and steering recalls would still be applicable, ie, flash upgrade, grease steering and possibly tie back depending on routing.


----------



## johnc

*Another change of tact by Peugeot.*

Had an e mail from Peugeot yesterday. Seems they have changed their mind again. The e mail said "Our Aftersales Quality Manager has suggested that it may be more sensible for him to inspect the vehicle with you after the work has been carried out." Do these people think my head buttons up the back!!!!! This is totally opposite to what I had previously agreed with their Customer Care. What is the point of a joint inspection after they have completed the work. I want these "so called" "area managers" to see at first hand what a mountain of poo their company has put on the road. I want to challenge the scuttle fix, I want my injectors removed and cleaned , I want the alternator, the wiper motor etc replaced not some wire brush effort by the 1st year apprentice.

Following is my reply.

Atten Customer Care

I cannot accept an inspection after the work has been carried out.

My position has not changed, I wish the van to be inspected in my presence and an action plan drawn up with all of the work to be carried out itemised.

I have attached a copy of my present concerns, which cover my expectations of what will require to be inspected.


----------



## 103699

How nice to see a Motorhome dealer looking at forums well done Johnscross, and thanks to you both for info.

DVH


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Another change of tact by Peugeot.*



johnc said:


> Had an e mail from Peugeot yesterday. Seems they have changed their mind again. The e mail said "Our Aftersales Quality Manager has suggested that it may be more sensible for him to inspect the vehicle with you after the work has been carried out." Do these people think my head buttons up the back!!!!! This is totally opposite to what I had previously agreed with their Customer Care. What is the point of a joint  inspection after they have completed the work. I want these "so called" "area managers" to see at first hand what a mountain of poo their company has put on the road. I want to challenge the scuttle fix, I want my injectors removed and cleaned , I want the alternator, the wiper motor etc replaced not some wire brush effort by the 1st year apprentice.
> 
> Following is my reply.
> 
> Atten Customer Care
> 
> I cannot accept an inspection after the work has been carried out.
> 
> My position has not changed, I wish the van to be inspected in my presence and an action plan drawn up with all of the work to be carried out itemised.
> 
> I have attached a copy of my present concerns, which cover my expectations of what will require to be inspected.


Hi John you know my feelings on Peugeot, none of them good!!! They are the most inconsistent, arrogant, twisted lot I have ever come across. It makes me want to get shot of my motorhome PDQ!!!!! They are a complete disgrace and if I thought I would get anywhere by complaining to some high heid one somewhere I would, however they seem to see their customers as an annoying inconvenience. I loathe their customer care with a passion :evil: :evil: :evil: It will be Les Braid who has suggested this stick to your guns petal as we did don't let them win.


----------



## johnc

*Re: Another change of tact by Peugeot.*



carolgavin said:


> johnc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had an e mail from Peugeot yesterday. Seems they have changed their mind again. The e mail said "Our Aftersales Quality Manager has suggested that it may be more sensible for him to inspect the vehicle with you after the work has been carried out." Do these people think my head buttons up the back!!!!! This is totally opposite to what I had previously agreed with their Customer Care. What is the point of a joint inspection after they have completed the work. I want these "so called" "area managers" to see at first hand what a mountain of poo their company has put on the road. I want to challenge the scuttle fix, I want my injectors removed and cleaned , I want the alternator, the wiper motor etc replaced not some wire brush effort by the 1st year apprentice.
> 
> Following is my reply.
> 
> Atten Customer Care
> 
> I cannot accept an inspection after the work has been carried out.
> 
> My position has not changed, I wish the van to be inspected in my presence and an action plan drawn up with all of the work to be carried out itemised.
> 
> I have attached a copy of my present concerns, which cover my expectations of what will require to be inspected.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi John you know my feelings on Peugeot, none of them good!!! They are the most inconsistent, arrogant, twisted lot I have ever come across. It makes me want to get shot of my motorhome PDQ!!!!! They are a complete disgrace and if I thought I would get anywhere by complaining to some high heid one somewhere I would, however they seem to see their customers as an annoying inconvenience. I loathe their customer care with a passion :evil: :evil: :evil: It will be Les Braid who has suggested this stick to your guns petal as we did don't let them win.
Click to expand...

Thanks Carol.

Your comments are just what I need to get typing with a vengeance. As I said in my posting, they must think we are some sort of simpletons (head buttons up the back etc) There is no way on this earth that I will allow Peugeot carte blanch to just wade in and botch their way through a series of powder puff and blusher jobs just to make the van look pretty after all its just a cosmetic problem according to Peugeot Customer Care.

Do you know. I would bet my bottom "Groat" (old Scottish 4 penny piece- I think) that if I was to take one of these tossers and show them a diesel engine they would not know an injector from a glow plug.

These bas*&%#s are just taking the pi##. The van is my property and I will decide what work is done and in what order, not mr high and mighty Mr Les Braid of Peugeot, he is not even a diesel mechanic.

Really angry

John C

PS hope all have a wonderful Christmas and a trouble free New Year.


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Another change of tact by Peugeot.*



johnc said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> johnc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had an e mail from Peugeot yesterday. Seems they have changed their mind again. The e mail said "Our Aftersales Quality Manager has suggested that it may be more sensible for him to inspect the vehicle with you after the work has been carried out." Do these people think my head buttons up the back!!!!! This is totally opposite to what I had previously agreed with their Customer Care. What is the point of a joint inspection after they have completed the work. I want these "so called" "area managers" to see at first hand what a mountain of poo their company has put on the road. I want to challenge the scuttle fix, I want my injectors removed and cleaned , I want the alternator, the wiper motor etc replaced not some wire brush effort by the 1st year apprentice.
> 
> Following is my reply.
> 
> Atten Customer Care
> 
> I cannot accept an inspection after the work has been carried out.
> 
> My position has not changed, I wish the van to be inspected in my presence and an action plan drawn up with all of the work to be carried out itemised.
> 
> I have attached a copy of my present concerns, which cover my expectations of what will require to be inspected.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi John you know my feelings on Peugeot, none of them good!!! They are the most inconsistent, arrogant, twisted lot I have ever come across. It makes me want to get shot of my motorhome PDQ!!!!! They are a complete disgrace and if I thought I would get anywhere by complaining to some high heid one somewhere I would, however they seem to see their customers as an annoying inconvenience. I loathe their customer care with a passion :evil: :evil: :evil: It will be Les Braid who has suggested this stick to your guns petal as we did don't let them win.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks Carol.
> 
> Your comments are just what I need to get typing with a vengeance. As I said in my posting, they must think we are some sort of simpletons (head buttons up the back etc) There is no way on this earth that I will allow Peugeot carte blanch to just wade in and botch their way through a series of powder puff and blusher jobs just to make the van look pretty after all its just a cosmetic problem according to Peugeot Customer Care.
> 
> Do you know. I would bet my bottom "Groat" (old Scottish 4 penny piece- I think) that if I was to take one of these tossers and show them a diesel engine they would not know an injector from a glow plug.
> 
> These bas*&%#s are just taking the pi##. The van is my property and I will decide what work is done and in what order, nor mr high and mighty Mr Les Braid of Peugeot, he is not even a diesel mechanic.
> 
> Really angry
> 
> John C
> 
> PS hope all have a wonderful Christmas and a trouble free New Year.
Click to expand...

Hi John, thats what they wanted us to do as well. Hand van over to them to do as they please not on your nelly duff!!!!!!!! 
Oh Les Braid was a panel beater so well qualified...................NOT!!!!!
Cheer up old chum we are not beaten yet, we might have our convoy after all at Robins and Day!!!!


----------



## EdsMH

*More Disasterous Fiat Customer Service*

Well I had hoped to provide an update that all my recalls had been done but I am no further forward. Soul's at Milton Keynes had the van in a couple of weeks ago and did some of the recalls as per my previous update. They asked could they do the gearbox bearing and handbrake fix when it was quiet on the 27th December. I agreed

I then emailed Fiat twice to see if they have the cover ready for the 3.0litre version so it could all be done at the same time. Each time I got a pretty standard response that showed they had not even read the emails properly and suggesting I ring their customer service line.

No matter, up early yesterday to get the van ready and shuffle vehicles around to make it easy for their driver. No sign of anyone at 9.00am and by 10.00am I was going to ring to see when they were coming when the phone went. It was Soul's to say they would not be coming to get the van to do the work as it was to big for their workshops?!! How had they done the previous work? With it on the ground came the answer. They said its weight and overhang was too much for their lifts. When I asked why they had made the arrangements and waited until the appointed day before cancelling they had no answer.

To say I was gobsmacked would be an understatement. So what next.... well they would refer the matter back to Fiat for them to deal with the problem and see if there is a truck service place that can take it. Of course they cannot do that until the 2nd of January at the earliest. So more waiting is in order and I feel uncomfortable using the van until the gearbox bearing is checked out

I guess my only route now is to dump it back with my dealer RDH who still have some warranty bits to do on the habitation as that is who my contract is with. Motorhome ownership has been a very disappointing experience so far, punctuated with the occasional trip out that is fun and the reason we bought it but I am seriously getting to the point where I am considering suing my dealer even though the faults are with Fiat and Burstner which feels a bit unfair but is looking like the best route.

Ed


----------



## carolgavin

*Playing the waiting game!!*

Hi Ed sorry to hear your sorry tale!! We too are playing the waiting game. We initially had Peugeot customer care manager in October. Then came stupid and unreasonable conditions imposed by Peugeot. After some strong negotiations they finally did a complete 360 and withdrew their unreasonable demands. We have had an independant engineers report done which has given us some additional leverage. They asked for a copy of the report which i refused to give them. Since then we have had an engineer out from Peugeot to assess condition of vehicle and to ensure any parts needed would be available when it finally goes in early/mid january. 
The worst of it is we have had Peugeot engineer out in December and this is what we initially asked for in August :evil: :evil: :evil:


----------



## 96299

Hi Ed...You know I feel your pain mate.We entered the motorhome world at the same time,and me,like you,have not had a very easy breaking in period.You run into brick wall after brick wall it seems in this game.To be honest,if I knew then what I know now,I wouldn`t have bothered.It makes you feel like a pc with no security attached-very,very vulnerable.
Bad show from Soul's at Milton Keynes to let you down like that 8O Maybe they need a thread on them in company reports.?

Hope you get it sorted one way or the other Ed.Let us know how it goes.

steve


----------



## Rapide561

*Multijet*

Hi

Has anyone had plastic covers fitted to the injector area on the 3.0 version?

I have some more recalls to sort out and will arrange this in the New Year.

Russell


----------



## 96299

*Re: Multijet*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> Has anyone had plastic covers fitted to the injector area on the 3.0 version?
> 
> I have some more recalls to sort out and will arrange this in the New Year.
> 
> Russell


As far as I`m aware Russell,they are not available yet.I ordered one through Fiat,who said they would contact my fiat dealer,who will then contact me when it becomes available :roll: I could be in for a lengthy wait. :lol:

steve


----------



## DC4JC

Russell,

for info, I contacted Fiat on 14/12 and was told that they have plenty of the covers for the 3 ltr version in stock.
The guy said he would contact my local dealer and advise him of the part number and technical sheet required to fix. 

He came back to me after this was done and said it would take about a week for the part to arrive and then the dealer would contact me to carry out the mod.
Nothing yet, but what with Xmas etc, I thought I'd leave it until 2/1/08 and then start chasing.

I've been holding out on a number of items waiting for this cover to come in. I dont want to keep going back and forth to the dealers!

Additionally I've now got a number of warranty issues that the MH dealer took details and photos of over 5 weeks ago and I've heard nothing from them or Swift about getting these resolved!

I have to say I agree with some of the later posts. We are new to MHs previously having had 4 new caravans. I must say given the cost of these things I would have hoped for a far better product and service. I too am becoming increasingly disillusioned with the whole thing. 

People complain about the caravan industry, but I can say my experiences with dealers and manufacturers were a lot better than what I've had thus far within the MH world.

Dave


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

I have just got back from the Fiat dealer having had recalls 5247 and 5248 attended to.

I also asked them to check the engine battery - as I am once again getting a flat battery after two days standing. The dealer advised the battery is "losing" 0.4 amps. Everything was switched off in both the cab and the conversion.

Back to the drawing board me thinks

Russell


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> The dealer advised the battery is "losing" 0.4 amps.


This is exactly why your battery is going flat, Russell. And really, it shouldn't be rocket science for our friends at Swift to find out why. This has been going on for months, Russell.

People have mentioned the Fiat CAN bus, but I would have thought that this is the same with the 2.3ltr 130 unit too? Mine stays charged for weeks, although cold weather and thickening oil makes the initial start a bit 'chuggy'. However, it turns over and starts within a second.

However, I was told that the Chausson effectively has a battery master fitted to it. Spacerunner was told this by the dealer and by the solar panel installer, although when I checked the engine battery on mine, it showed no sign of increased voltage when the van was on hookup. I should investigate further, maybe when the weather's a bit warmer :roll:

And on the disillusioned members: please don't give up. Once the bad things are fixed (and I *know* how frustrating it is when no one seems to care nor be able to organise p*$$ ups in a pub, never mind a brewery), you will have tons of enjoyment with the things. We just had a great few days in Cambridge in ours, and really blew out the Christmas cobwebs with the short trip.

I totally agree about your expectations of customer service, and have thought this for some time. To them (some dealers, manufacturers, Fiat, whoever) you're just the purchaser of a commodity, and the fact that you've spent tens of thousands of pounds, maybe of savings or lump sums, maybe of finance, seems to mean very little.

And yes we know that maybe some dealers are different :roll:

Gerald


----------



## Rapide561

*Flat battery*

Hi Gerald

Swift really have put a lot of effort into this already. The problem was cured and I had no issues. Came to start the van on the 30th though - and dead as a doh doh. It is strange that is shoould be ok and then go away again.

Russell

I rely on the inboard readout to tell me the state of the battery. It is usually 12.7, but suddenly started dropping again.


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: Flat battery*



Rapide561 said:


> Swift really have put a lot of effort into this already. The problem was cured and I had no issues.


Hi Russell,

Do you happen to know what they did to cure it?

Gerald


----------



## GerryD

Ed,
Just down the road from Souls (well 18 miles) is Stormont at Dunstable. They are Fiat and Iveco dealers and can take any size vehicle. Got mine done there. I am satsified but only because I am not as worried about the water as others. Evidently the engine cover still has to be requested and I am still waiting for that.


----------



## cabby

Not wanting to wade through all these postings again, as they make me so angry,at Fiat that is,I am expecting to pick up my new 3ltr X250 van halfway through Jan.have we got a list of the recalls posted anywhere.as I shall reject it if they are not done already, had enough of messing about with a previous van.

cabby


----------



## b6x

Take a look on the VOSA web site. It has a list of all recalls for the new ducato. Be careful before getting too carried away like most, as the problems listed are limited to very few chassis numbers (in the overall production numbers).

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/default.asp
...and look for chassis numbers ZFA2500xxxxxxxxx

Regards,
Steve


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Cabby - if you phone Fiat with the chassis number - they can tell you what recalls are still outstanding to a particular vehicle. Phone 01753 511431 and ask for customer services in the UK.

Engine covers - I was told today that the engine cover for the 3.0 is still not available. Can anyone advise further?

Russell


----------



## geraldandannie

b6x said:


> the problems listed are limited to very few chassis numbers (in the overall production numbers).


Maybe so, but an awful lot of motorhome owners on MHF are having recalls done. :roll:

Cabby - your motorhome should go to Fiat for a separate PDI about a week before your pickup date (this is what happened to ours). All outstanding recalls should be attended to at that time. If you're concerned, I'd get the VIN number from the dealer, and check yourself is any recalls are outstanding. It's possible that some of these might have been attended to already, depending on the convertor's lead times.

Make sure you get the Fiat warranty to start from the pickup date. Usually, the warranty is automatically started when Fiat deliver the van to the convertor.

Gerald


----------



## chrisjrv

I feel really sorry for all you guys who are stuck with these vehicles. To me the obvious choice of action would be to take legal advice and then reject them. Surely there must be legal eagles out there who would represent a large group such as this. I run a 2001 Peugeot which suffered gearbox problems due to water ingress, Peugeot were not aware of any inherent problem! Shortly after buying it secondhand I received a recall notice which should already have been done, my local garage could not handle the vehicle (a van conversion?) so I took it back to Amotts telling them they had sold me an unsafe vehicle (faulty fuel tank straps) and they arranged for the repairs.
If I ever change my van it will be for an older one and bought privately or from one of the few dealers I feel are trustworthy. Can anyone recommend a base vehicle that is fault free, I can only think of a volkswagen T4 and possibly a transit circa 1998ish.


----------



## 1happy

*When will there be an end michealangelo????*

Hi all and a Happy New Year from Portugal. 8) 
Just on a brief trip to an internet cafe and thought I would see how the Fiasco is going!!
Sadly no time to post what happened at the garage on our way out of the UK!
Will get stuck in when I find one of those free wifi thingies :roll: 
Sadly none yet  
Meanwhile could I ask all concerned members and their family and friends to sign the petition
HERE>
http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot
As it looks increasingly like we might be able to find a use for it :wink:
The petition was purposefully left to run for a year 8O incase the manufacturers involved didn't get their ar**s into gear :roll: 
SAD SAD SAD shame on them 

Well thats all for now folks
Wishing everybody all the best
Regards Catherine


----------



## Telbell

> People have mentioned the Fiat CAN bus,


Sorry Gerald....what's that mean? :roll: - an acronym for* B*loody *US*less?? :?

But you do seem mto be happy with your Chausson and X2/50 on balance. I'm almost persuaded!! :lol:


----------



## Spacerunner

Surely I can't be the only owner of a Fiat X2/50 who is quite happy and satisfied with the new vehicle. I acknowledge that it is a commercial vehicle and is never going to be as comfy and slick as similarly priced executive saloon. Yes I get a small amount of water into the engine bay, but so does my Honda Jazz and thats 4 years old and hasn't suffered any significant damage and the scuttle design is remarkably similar. One of the windscreen wiper spindles is permanently under water in wet weather, but hasn't fallen off and still works perfectly. All new vehicles have niggles, getting them sorted comes with the territory and kudos of new vehicle ownership. Sometimes I think people are panicking and doing a headless chicken impersonation over very small problems. I am not trying to make light of problems some owners are having, but I do think we have to stand back a bit and weigh up the pros and cons and maybe to start massaging Fiat rather than just carrying on with name calling which frankly will not get us anywhere.


----------



## b6x

I'm happy with mine. The new Ducato is a million times better than the last, and the niggly faults it has are a small irritation on what is a great driving van.

Our van does not have any of the recalls outstanding (chassis number not in the range of any of the recalls), however I still need to get the water ingress issue sorted out. I'd prefer to be out using the van than it sat in a garage though, so i'll get around to it when i can.

I've performed remedial d.i.y repairs to limit the water in the engine bay, and the taylormade is doing a great job keeping it out too. Last check, it was bone dry under there, so I'm not desperate to get a crappy plastic cover installed


----------



## geraldandannie

Telbell said:


> Sorry Gerald....what's that mean? :roll: - an acronym for* B*loody *US*less?? :?


Basically, it's a bit like a network for a vehicle - instead of every single device having its own power cable, they all sit on one set of cables, and receive information by way of messages. If you _really_ want to read further, you can follow the link

:: link ::



Telbell said:


> But you do seem mto be happy with your Chausson and X2/50 on balance. I'm almost persuaded!! :lol:


Tel, I am *very* happy with the Chausson. It's brilliant value, winterised, comfortable, and does everything we want of it.  Yes, the water ingress is a pain, and it's annoying that Fiat have been so slow to react (are are still being slow) to what is a very poor design feature of a fantastic base vehicle.

Gerald


----------



## geraldandannie

b6x said:


> I've performed remedial d.i.y repairs to limit the water in the engine bay, and the taylormade is doing a great job keeping it out too. Last check, it was bone dry under there, so I'm not desperate to get a crappy plastic cover installed


Same here. We shouldn't need to do it, but it seemed like a good idea to me to seal the gaps, and use the Taylormade longline screen cover whenever we're parked up. As I've said before, I'd prefer to wait (BUT NOT TOO LONG :evil: ) until a proper solution is found, rather than just fixing the things it affects. It's like stopping the symptoms without curing the illness.

Gerald


----------



## Grizzly

The duct tape that we put along the base of the windscreen seems to have done the job and the engine is always dry when we look. There is no sign of further rusting after the waxoyling done by the garage. The last lot of tape was put there in early September after the first strip was removed for inspection underneath. It's black tape and so only someone who was looking for it would notice I think.

The van is kept outside and has no other screen cover.

G


----------



## carolgavin

Spacerunner said:


> Surely I can't be the only owner of a Fiat X2/50 who is quite happy and satisfied with the new vehicle. I acknowledge that it is a commercial vehicle and is never going to be as comfy and slick as similarly priced executive saloon. Yes I get a small amount of water into the engine bay, but so does my Honda Jazz and thats 4 years old and hasn't suffered any significant damage and the scuttle design is remarkably similar. One of the windscreen wiper spindles is permanently under water in wet weather, but hasn't fallen off and still works perfectly. All new vehicles have niggles, getting them sorted comes with the territory and kudos of new vehicle ownership. Sometimes I think people are panicking and doing a headless chicken impersonation over very small problems. I am not trying to make light of problems some owners are having, but I do think we have to stand back a bit and weigh up the pros and cons and maybe to start massaging Fiat rather than just carrying on with name calling which frankly will not get us anywhere.


Hi I have the benefit of an independant engineers report on my van and I am not happy. Headless chicken I may be but I have grounds to be that way!!!! My engineer had a look in places in my engine I cannot see (he had a wee flexible camera thingy) which are being affected by the water. The problems are unfortunately not minor and if left are potentially expensive for we the owners. 
I think and have always said that the van is great and drives like a dream, but my dream has the potential to become a fully fledged nightmare    
I do not see why they cannot fix this properly and timeously. 5-6 months to wait while they get their backsides in gear is terrible and their attitude is appalling. 
Good vans let down by design and bad customer care which is a real shame.


----------



## suffolkian

We are delighted with our Fiat based motorhome. It does what it says on the tin. I know there have been minor faults since it's launch but the positive points outweigh the minuses. It appears some people get up early to be miserable for longer on this topic. In fact I haven't looked at this thread for well over two months now. There really is more to life!!! :lol:


----------



## carolgavin

suffolkian said:


> We are delighted with our Fiat based motorhome. It does what it says on the tin. I know there have been minor faults since it's launch but the positive points outweigh the minuses. It appears some people get up early to be miserable for longer on this topic. In fact I haven't looked at this thread for well over two months now. There really is more to life!!! :lol:


Oh well I am one of the headless, miserable chickens who doesn't have a life!!! 
Glad you are happy. :lol: Back to being miserable headless and chicken :lol: 8O :twisted: :roll: :wink: :wink:


----------



## Regal

*Fiat Recalls*

I have read with great interest regarding the Fiat recalls. I have recently purchased a new Autotrail 630 LB based on the Fiat 3.0 ltr unit.

We have recently been on a trip to Paris, Belguim, Holland & Germany and I have to say (so far) we are very pleased with the vehicle, it is a great impovement on the older model.

However do not think that the engine water ingress will not give you a problem. At the moment all is OK and you won't have a problem BUT 3 years down the line when the vehicle is out of warranty and that is where we will start to see the problems.

Just think if you want to replace the injectors for example almost certainly they will not remove from the cylinder head due to the water ingress and contamination, or they will break flush with the cylinder head. This will mean cylinder head removal and an expensive repair for what should be a simple replacement job.

Engine water ingress over time will give you problems with engine ancillaries I am afraid only time will see if I am right.

Fiat have been slow with this campaign recall and although I have carried out a temp repair to the screen scuttle as yet I have not received a satisfactory answer from Fiat customer service.

In conclusion I do think you should take steps to cure the water ingress problem or face problems in the future.

Steve


----------



## Spacerunner

carolgavin said:


> Oh well I am one of the headless, miserable chickens who doesn't have a life!!!
> Glad you are happy. :lol: Back to being miserable headless and chicken :lol: 8O :twisted: :roll: :wink: :wink:


Might I suggest a new avatar:

Sorry only joking and I do understand that some people do really have some serious problems.


----------



## carolgavin

Spacerunner said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh well I am one of the headless, miserable chickens who doesn't have a life!!!
> Glad you are happy. :lol: Back to being miserable headless and chicken :lol: 8O :twisted: :roll: :wink: :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Might I suggest a new avatar:
> 
> Sorry only joking and I do understand that some people do really have some serious problems.
Click to expand...

I like it :lol: :lol: :lol: Oh well at least I can still laugh even after 5 months of asking Peugeot to fix me lovely van. How hard can it be?????


----------



## Spacerunner

_However do not think that the engine water ingress will not give you a problem. At the moment all is OK and you won't have a problem BUT 3 years down the line when the vehicle is out of warranty and that is where we will start to see the problems.

Just think if you want to replace the injectors for example almost certainly they will not remove from the cylinder head due to the water ingress and contamination, or they will break flush with the cylinder head. This will mean cylinder head removal and an expensive repair for what should be a simple replacement job.

Engine water ingress over time will give you problems with engine ancillaries I am afraid only time will see if I am right. _

This is not even as good as hearsay evidence.....its just supposition! If water was going to affect any electical components, after last years weather I'm sure we would be hearing of many more instances already. Having worked extensively with steam and water services there are many ways to attack seized threaded components. I think to start' yelling wolf' at this stage is a bit premature and is likely to get owners worried about problems that may not ever come about.


----------



## Regal

*Fiat Water Ingress*

Spacerunner

Having been involved in the motor trade since the 1970's I can tell you that injectors that are corroded have given us problems on removal. Yes you are correct we have ways of removal but that would not be satisfactory with the cylinder head in position. Maybe we were unlucky but I don't think so.

We have had a number of problems with the Renault/Vauxhall Movano Diesel engines that have required cylinder head removal as the injectors fracture on removal.

My point is that I do think it would be wise to attend to the water ingress problem.

Steve


----------



## carolgavin

Spacerunner said:


> _However do not think that the engine water ingress will not give you a problem. At the moment all is OK and you won't have a problem BUT 3 years down the line when the vehicle is out of warranty and that is where we will start to see the problems.
> 
> Just think if you want to replace the injectors for example almost certainly they will not remove from the cylinder head due to the water ingress and contamination, or they will break flush with the cylinder head. This will mean cylinder head removal and an expensive repair for what should be a simple replacement job.
> 
> Engine water ingress over time will give you problems with engine ancillaries I am afraid only time will see if I am right. _
> 
> This is not even as good as hearsay evidence.....its just supposition! If water was going to affect any electical components, after last years weather I'm sure we would be hearing of many more instances already. Having worked extensively with steam and water services there are many ways to attack seized threaded components. I think to start' yelling wolf' at this stage is a bit premature and is likely to get owners worried about problems that may not ever come about.


Spacerunner going way way back in the thread what Regal is saying was mentioned by GerryD as being a potential problem when he had experts look at his van!! Do not think Regal is crying wolf, this remains a potential problem if they do not do the work properly in the first place, cleaning off the powdery rust stain and waxoyling engine is not enough.

Forgot to ask you but have you had the work done now??? As checking the database I have you down as a no! I could update it if you have same for anyone else!!


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

I am also very happy with the X2/50, other than the unsightly engine bay prior to the treatments being applied a couple of months back, and the almost inability to reverse on an incline.

I did have a slight oil leak and this was quickly fixed.

I also had an issue with the cab aircon failing to operate - this was fixed under warranty by regassing the system.

I have been to a dealers three or four times with recalls.

I had a good chat with the service manager at Piccadilly Motors in Ripon and he said the "treated" area looked good. (The work was not done by them but was done at Nor-Com, although it did take two visits to get this done properly.) I asked the chap today about the long term effects, but it was too technical for my delicate ears. I will however feel a bit better when there is a cover on the cam area.

Magnificent to drive though, let down by "cosmetics".

Russell


----------



## friscan

*Engine Cover Part Numbers?*

I have my van (X250 2.2 100BHP) booked into Sidwell St Motors in Exeter next week for the items to be done. I noted that the cover wouldn't be fitted unless you insist (or have a good rant!) and I have a picture of a fitted cover to a 2.2 100BHP engine but does anyone know the part numbers for the respective covers please?.


----------



## Glengyle

friscan, the fiat part number for the 2.2l cover is 55212592. Tell them if you want the scuttle sealed as well - I believe they won't do that unless you ask. You may have to call Fiat Motorhome to arrange the fitting of the cover.


----------



## friscan

*Part Number for 2.2 100BHP cover*

Thanks for that Glengyle. Will give them a ring tomorrow.


----------



## GerryD

I have avoided posting on this forum for some time as I have never seen that there is a major issue. Yes there is an issue of water between the cams and there is a potential for the injectors seizing in the cylinder heads, albeit remote, but I have always said that. The situation has now changed by Fiat having accepted that there is some issue surrounding the water accumulation and they have addressed that by the service bulletin covering the oxidation. From that point on the responsibility falls upon Fiat and is covered by legal process even outside warranty.
Always remember the warranty is not the important issue, it is the merchantable quality under law that is important and once a manufacturer accepts an issue they accept that issue for the life of the product.
In all honesty this forum should be concluded for Fiat and should only remain for Peugeot.
For those looking at this as potential owners the fact remains that it is still a very small number of owners who have either discovered or complained about this issue.
I realise that my comments will offend some members and appologise for that but my opinion has not changed. The Fiat X250 is the best base vehicle for me.


----------



## Glengyle

I disagree that this forum should be concluded for fiat Gerry. I bought my van in May and only found out about the water ingress problem by reading this forum in August. Luckily I only had tiny spots of rust on the injectors and was able to protect against further rusting with wd40. By the time the van went in to have the engine cover fitted and scuttle sealed in December a couple of the injectors were in pools of water. There will be a lot of new fiat motorhomer owners who are as yet unaware of the problem and also many new motorhomes with the problem sitting in dealers forecourts. This forum may well bring it to their attention.


----------



## geraldandannie

GerryD said:


> In all honesty this forum should be concluded for Fiat and should only remain for Peugeot. For those looking at this as potential owners the fact remains that it is still a very small number of owners who have either discovered or complained about this issue.


Gerry, you would have had us stop talking about this months ago, when Fiat first made their vacuous "statement". When all existing motorhomes have been successfully modified, and when all new Fiat-based motorhomes have been modified, then maybe we'll stop talking about it (although I suspect this episode will tarnish fiat's reputation for some time to come.

In my mind, this (and other) threads on MHF did more to bring Fiat's attention to the problem than almost anything else (also through the efforts of Peter from Swift). Too many other people were prepared to adopt your 'laissez-faire' attitude. We all know that the louder people shout, the quicker something gets fixed.

I agree with you, the Fiat is a great basis for a motorhome, but the design of the windscreen scuttle is amateur - and that's doing a disservice to amateurs. Fiat and Peugeot have spent too long prevaricating, pretending a problem didn't exist, making meaningless press releases to be swallowed hook, kine and sinker by the gullible - all to delay them having to get off their bums and do something about it. Still we don't know if those covers are available for all engine types (some say they are, some not, although I'm sure they're available for all new vans coming off the production lines and on vans being supplied to large convertors. AND you have to specifically ask Fiat very nicely for one, instead of them being fitted as a matter of course.

Please, don't ask us to stop talking about this problem. If you don't think it's serious, good for you. My scuttle spends about 99.9% of it's time covered up anyway, but the thing that annoys me is the fact that we motorhome owners are treated with contempt, and with total disregard to the real cost of these vehicles to us.

Gerald


----------



## carolgavin

Hi fellow peugeot sufferers my van was uplifted this morning for repairs to start Monday. Will update on progress as and when.................wish me luck!!





PS Forgot to say, apparently I am getting the engine guard which doesn't exist so say peugeot customer care......watch this space!!


----------



## Polo

*Scuttlegate*

We can only say 'plenty good luck'. We do hope that your battle has a good result. Look forward to the update.
8) 8)


----------



## smick

*Scuttlegate*

This highlights something in Feb Motorcaravan magazine just out - which highlights the issue, and says Fiat are tackling what they see as a "cosmetic issue", but then goes on "_Some Peugeots from the same production line have experienced similar problems and can also be taken to the customers nearest dealership, where any issues of water ingress will be redressed"_

That doesn't seem to be what MHF readers have encountered...

Smick


----------



## Autoquest

Carolgavin - Best of luck with the engine guard... Mine has been on order now for about three months? 8O 

If it doesn't arrive soon I shall just buy a Fiat one instead.


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

Latest thing to go wrong with my Fiat is the inability to open the bonnet. After a long drawn out session, involving three men, a lady and a dog, we got it open.

Next thing - filling te washer fluid bottle. If you put water in a more than a slight trickle, the water overflows from the next of the bottle. 25 minutes to fill the blooming thing.

Russell


----------



## Spacerunner

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> Latest thing to go wrong with my Fiat is the inability to open the bonnet. After a long drawn out session, involving three men, a lady and a dog, we got it open.
> 
> Next thing - filling te washer fluid bottle. If you put water in a more than a slight trickle, the water overflows from the next of the bottle. 25 minutes to fill the blooming thing.
> 
> Russell


I'd be interested to find out what the dog's contribution was. Maybe something to do with refilling the washer bottle? :wink:


----------



## johnc

*For Fiat Bonnet, read Peugeot Bonnet*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> Latest thing to go wrong with my Fiat is the inability to open the bonnet. After a long drawn out session, involving three men, a lady and a dog, we got it open.
> 
> Next thing - filling te washer fluid bottle. If you put water in a more than a slight trickle, the water overflows from the next of the bottle. 25 minutes to fill the blooming thing.
> 
> Russell


Exact same problem on our Peugeot. Pull the lever and nothing happens. Been in to Peugeot but still Bonnet does not open 1st time. I found that if you pull the lever then go to the front of the bonnet and push down then pull the lever again it will open.

Perhaps this is why so many people have not discovered the lurking rust bucket under the Bonnet because they cannot open the damn thing. Maybe it is a Fiat/Peugeot design feature.


----------



## Rapide561

*Bonnet fault*

Hello

Well the dog was there purely because she was there - and as people were stopping to stroke her they got roped into the situation.

As for the technique - it was fine - but the method described more or less fits what was done.

Anyone else have a problem with filling the washer fluid?

Russell


----------



## johnc

*Engine cover*



Autoquest said:


> Carolgavin - Best of luck with the engine guard... Mine has been on order now for about three months? 8O
> 
> If it doesn't arrive soon I shall just buy a Fiat one instead.


Might be misunderstanding you but the Fiat cover will not fit a Peugeot engine. Different shape with different mounting holes. I have been promised one as well by Peugeot Customer Service ( and pigs will fly)

Regards

John C


----------



## EdsMH

*Quick Update*

GerryD thanks for info on Stormont and I am booked in with them on the 21st for last two recalls.

Got a helpful lady at Fiat customer service (Michelle) who tells me that the 3.0 litre cover is now available and will be providing parts for Stormont to fit. I will update group after the visit.

Regards

Ed


----------



## Autoquest

Are we saying that the Ford engine used by both Fiat and Peugeot and fitted on the common Sevel production line is somehow different??????? 8O


----------



## johnc

*Engines.*



Autoquest said:


> Are we saying that the Ford engine used by both Fiat and Peugeot and fitted on the common Sevel production line is somehow different??????? 8O


The engine in a friends Ford Transit is the exact same as the engine in my Peugeot. Only difference in his van is that the engine is north south with a back axel rather than East West front wheel drive in the Boxer, however it is the same block. If you look at some of the MHF members photographs of their Fiat rust buckets, the engine is quite different, more rounded in places and with differnt injector clamps.

For Ford read Peugeot

For Peugeot read Peugeot

For Renault, read peugeot

For Fiat read Fiat

I think!


----------



## geraldandannie

The block in my Fiat-based motorhome says "IVECO" (Ford) on it.

Gerald


----------



## johnc

*Got it a bit wrong*



geraldandannie said:


> The block in my Fiat-based motorhome says "IVECO" (Ford) on it.
> 
> Gerald


Perhaps my last posting should have been

For Ford read Peugeot

For Peugeot read Peugeot

For Renault, read Peugeot

For Fiat read Ford

Confusing!!!!


----------



## Autoquest

Bugger


----------



## johnc

*FORD>FIAT>PEUGEOT ETC*



Autoquest said:


> Bugger


Pics of engines

Sorry but could not remember how to post a jpg so have glued on a Word doc with pics of Peugeot and Fiat van engines.

John C


----------



## GerryD

*Re: Got it a bit wrong*



johnc said:


> geraldandannie said:
> 
> 
> 
> The block in my Fiat-based motorhome says "IVECO" (Ford) on it.
> 
> Gerald
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps my last posting should have been
> 
> For Ford read Peugeot
> 
> For Peugeot read Peugeot
> 
> For Renault, read Peugeot
> 
> For Fiat read Ford
> 
> Confusing!!!!
Click to expand...

John,
Small correction, for Renault read Vauxhall or Nissan. Engine is developed from Mitsubishi.

Gerry


----------



## Autoquest

Thanks for that Johnc - saved me a bob or two....  

A pair of pretty grotty looking engines if you don't mind me saying so 8O


----------



## johnc

*Re: Got it a bit wrong*



GerryD said:


> johnc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> geraldandannie said:
> 
> 
> 
> The block in my Fiat-based motorhome says "IVECO" (Ford) on it.
> 
> Gerald
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps my last posting should have been
> 
> For Ford read Peugeot
> 
> For Peugeot read Peugeot
> 
> For Renault, read Peugeot
> 
> For Fiat read Ford
> 
> Confusing!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> John,
> Small correction, for Renault read Vauxhall or Nissan. Engine is developed from Mitsubishi.
> 
> Gerry
Click to expand...

Sorry I thought that Renault would have used the PSA engine.

Bit incestuous is it not.


----------



## GerryD

*Re: Got it a bit wrong*



johnc said:


> GerryD said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> johnc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> geraldandannie said:
> 
> 
> 
> The block in my Fiat-based motorhome says "IVECO" (Ford) on it.
> 
> Gerald
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps my last posting should have been
> 
> For Ford read Peugeot
> 
> For Peugeot read Peugeot
> 
> For Renault, read Peugeot
> 
> For Fiat read Ford
> 
> Confusing!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> John,
> Small correction, for Renault read Vauxhall or Nissan. Engine is developed from Mitsubishi.
> 
> Gerry
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry I thought that Renault would have used the PSA engine.
> 
> Bit incestuous is it not.
Click to expand...

No, not really, understandable as they are made in Luton by IBC, which is owned by General Motors.

Gerry


----------



## steles

After not much more than a 6 week wait for the "new parts" to fix the scuttle my van finally went to Autoworld Chesterfield yesterday.
1. New scuttle as promised was not supplied with the kit, Fiat decided that the existing would be sealed.
2. The Visiting Fiat engineer was present during all operations to ensure work would be carried out strictly as per service instruction.
3. All remaining recall work would be done during this visit the most important now seems a software download to prevent failure of EGR valve.
My duck tape was removed and the work as instructed and supervised by Fist carried out. Fortunately the engine cover was fitted as now the duck tape has been removed the scuttle leaks worse than ever. To be fair to Autoworld apart from the sealant on the windscreen, bonnet and drivers door and the now very poor fitting bonnet (i assume it was removed to gain access to the scuttle) the work was completed on time and i will be able to spend time cleaning off the sealant and re applying the duck tape. I am informed by Autoworld that now the work has been done no claim for damage of failure of components due to water ingress will be considered. Not to sure if that is correct. The fix as i am sure we all know will not work and untill a new designed scuttle is produced we will continue to have problems.


----------



## carolgavin

steles said:


> After not much more than a 6 week wait for the "new parts" to fix the scuttle my van finally went to Autoworld Chesterfield yesterday.
> 1. New scuttle as promised was not supplied with the kit, Fiat decided that the existing would be sealed.
> 2. The Visiting Fiat engineer was present during all operations to ensure work would be carried out strictly as per service instruction.
> 3. All remaining recall work would be done during this visit the most important now seems a software download to prevent failure of EGR valve.
> My duck tape was removed and the work as instructed and supervised by Fist carried out. Fortunately the engine cover was fitted as now the duck tape has been removed the scuttle leaks worse than ever. To be fair to Autoworld apart from the sealant on the windscreen, bonnet and drivers door and the now very poor fitting bonnet (i assume it was removed to gain access to the scuttle) the work was completed on time and i will be able to spend time cleaning off the sealant and re applying the duck tape. I am informed by Autoworld that now the work has been done no claim for damage of failure of components due to water ingress will be considered. Not to sure if that is correct. The fix as i am sure we all know will not work and untill a new designed scuttle is produced we will continue to have problems.


Steles thats a disgrace!! Not only have they not fitted the promised parts but they have damaged your bonnet to boot!! As for their 'no claim' bitty not sure that would stand up. Take it back and insist they fix it properly because if it still leaks then you could still have a problem. 
According to my independent inspector mine has been replaced with a new scuttle which seems to be made of a more rigid plastic stuff. Time will tell as I haven't had a look at it yet (it's been in for over a week now!!!) will update as soon as I see it. Meantime good luck with yours.


----------



## Autoquest

New scuttle eh....! Piccies required ASP


----------



## oldenstar

Chelston had a separate stand for their service department at Shepton, so I decided to book my Tribute in for its recall work.
FWIW the chap said that only that morning (Friday) Fiat had authorised the fitting of the engine covers as well.
So hopefully next Wednesday will see the work done.
I have had the letter from Fiat for some weeks now (after filling in a complaint at the NEC), but have never been able to contact Fiat at the number they gave me to ring (00800 etc).
I must say, that after standing for most of the last two months, my X250 performed perfectly yesterday in what was one of the wettest trips imaginable. I had to great difficulty getting back into my van in the Shepton car park-it was virtually marooned.
So they may not be waterproof but it doesn't seem to affect the performance.


----------



## carolgavin

Autoquest said:


> New scuttle eh....! Piccies required ASP


Ooooooooooh wait Autoquest my love don't have van back yet!!!! It's been gone over a week but probably get it back tomorrow. Don't get toooooooooooooooooo excited as engineer says it looks to be same design (2 piece crappy one) just more rigid!!


----------



## rowley

Steles experience at Autoworld is worrying. I definitely need a new scuttle as mine is very bowed. I have not heard anything at all from Fiat so I suppose that I must now chase them up.

I know that it has been mentioned before but I cannot find it, could someone please tell me what is the best Fiat number to ring. Thanks.


----------



## MikeH

Rowley. The number for Fiat, that I phoned was 01753 511431. First time they gave me a case number and said someone would phone back from the relevant dept. but I had to phone back last week and quoted case number and spoke to Martin, who was very helpful,and was going to phone the Dealer and tell them to fit a cover when my van goes in. We shall wait and see but someone else did mention Martin before,good response and helpful. Mike H.


----------



## geraldandannie

'Roundup' post updated with exciting news of the new scuttle :roll:

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-350972.html#350972

Contact details and VOSA recall details are in that post.

Gerald


----------



## 38Rover

Hi
I have sorted my X/250 myself see post

20/10/07 Fiat X/250 Water Video

When I resealed my scuttle I held it to the glass with lengths of wood wedged back against a wall until the adhesive/sealer had set i then ran a small bead of silicon along the edge between glass and scuttle since then it has never leaked nor any of the other place.
Please remember the scuttle is not the only place that leaks see earlier post.The much talked about engine cover is only a very limited fix water under the bonnet has harmful effects on all the other components and may only manifest itself years down the line it is vital to keep the water out.
Colin Frier
ps if anybody wants pics of what I did let me have your e mail and i will send
[email protected]


----------



## rowley

I phoned the number Mike gave and I am sure that I ended up in Italy! The lady gave me 3 campaign numbers to give to the Dealer, but was not able to give me any info on covers or scuttles. She also did not recognise Autoworld where Steles went, instead suggested that I should go to Derby or Doncaster.


----------



## steles

Rowley
I had same problem when i phoned Fiat. 
For info and worth investigating is the new Fiat commercial dealer "Sherwood" just off exit to Blackwell on A38, first left after M1 towards Mansfield. They are now used by several Motorhome dealers.To new to be in my phone book. 
Stephen.


----------



## Regal

*Fiat Water Ingress Update*

Hi all you fellow water ingress sufferers

Just an update on my vehicle. I have had all the recalls carried out by my nearest Fiat Commercial Dealer, Desira.

BUT the water ingress STILL has not been rectified and Fiat customer services are aware. They contacted me last Monday to inform me that they had instructed Desira to carry out a REPAIR to the front scuttle panel and supply and fit the engine cover, I have the 3.0ltr unit and I understand the engine covers for this unit are now available.

I have contacted Desira who inform me that Fiat have been in contact and the parts are on order.

So we shall see, like others I have repaired mine with tape. After all it's ONLY 3 months since I complained about this problem, so I wont hold my breath. When & if I get a fix I will let you know.

Steve


----------



## Pixelpusher

Would this be Desira in Ware because that's where (no pun  ) I need to take mine?

Colin


----------



## Regal

Colin

No this is Desira in Friern Barnet, North London

Steve


----------



## Pixelpusher

Thanks Steve

Colin


----------



## rowley

Steles wrote--Rowley
I had same problem when i phoned Fiat.
For info and worth investigating is the new Fiat commercial dealer "Sherwood" just off exit to Blackwell on A38, first left after M1 towards Mansfield. They are now used by several Motorhome dealers.To new to be in my phone book.
Stephen.

That is interesting because I met a chap who works at Sherwood and he said the same as you. Fiat had not heard of them!! 8O


----------



## carolgavin

hi chaps and chapesses sorry still no update or pics of new scuttle   
van still in garage they are looking at the misfire at present then it has to be finally inspected by aftersales manager!!! Looking like will not have it back till weekend ( a full 2 weeks!!!) Will post pics and details then!!


----------



## geraldandannie

carolgavin said:


> Looking like will not have it back till weekend ( a full 2 weeks!!!)


Wowza! That's a long time  

I think when mine goes it it'll have to be a week, minimum (will need to drop off / pick up on Saturday). I hope it doesn't take any longer than this :?

Gerald


----------



## carolgavin

geraldandannie said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking like will not have it back till weekend ( a full 2 weeks!!!)
> 
> 
> 
> Wowza! That's a long time
> 
> I think when mine goes it it'll have to be a week, minimum (will need to drop off / pick up on Saturday). I hope it doesn't take any longer than this :?
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

Hi Gerald, I know that is a long time and we certainly were not expecting it to be this long!! Good news is that my independant inspector has seen it and says the engine looks brand new. Not only have they removed, cleaned and replaced*** injectors but they have cleaned off all other rusty bits *and* repainted the whole engine    They are apparently making a brilliant job of it, above and beyond what inspector wanted!!! So all in all worth the 2 weeks, considering I have been asking the since the 14th August 2007 to fix it not too bad really I suppose.

***not replaced with new ones just to clarify!! They have put same ones back in!


----------



## 96299

Hi All


I phoned my FiART dealer today,to be told they are expecting the 3L cover any day now.He`s actual words were... "We are looking at the next couple of days" I wont hold my breath,but you never know,Heck..pigs might even fly. :lol: 

steve


----------



## DC4JC

Hi to everyone.

Just picked up the MH from the local Fiat agent after having the rectification work done, including the 3ltr cover!

The workshop foreman took me through what they had done and they've made a really clean job of it.

And to top it all, it works!!! I did the watering can test all over the windscreen and nothing, not a drop inside. Result.

Now to get on and enjoy the van.

Good luck to all those still pursuing this.

Dave


----------



## johnc

carolgavin said:


> geraldandannie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking like will not have it back till weekend ( a full 2 weeks!!!)
> 
> 
> 
> Wowza! That's a long time
> 
> I think when mine goes it it'll have to be a week, minimum (will need to drop off / pick up on Saturday). I hope it doesn't take any longer than this :?
> 
> Gerald
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi Gerald, I know that is a long time and we certainly were not expecting it to be this long!! Good news is that my independant inspector has seen it and says the engine looks brand new. Not only have they removed, cleaned and replaced*** injectors but they have cleaned off all other rusty bits *and* repainted the whole engine    They are apparently making a brilliant job of it, above and beyond what inspector wanted!!! So all in all worth the 2 weeks, considering I have been asking the since the 14th August 2007 to fix it not too bad really I suppose.
> 
> ***not replaced with new ones just to clarify!! They have put same ones back in!
Click to expand...

Well done Carol, glad it has all worked out. I can beat your 14th August, my first email to Peugeot Customer (DON'T) Care was back in April. Have just sent third email reminder that I am still waiting for an update.

Did they make any comment about the judder in reverse

Regards

John


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

DC4JC said:


> Hi to everyone.
> 
> Just picked up the MH from the local Fiat agent after having the rectification work done, including the 3ltr cover!
> 
> The workshop foreman took me through what they had done and they've made a really clean job of it.
> 
> And to top it all, it works!!! I did the watering can test all over the windscreen and nothing, not a drop inside. Result.
> 
> Now to get on and enjoy the van.
> 
> Good luck to all those still pursuing this.Dave


Congrats, please name the dealer so others in your neck of the woods know where to go.

(Not that our customers down our way have a problem)


----------



## DC4JC

The dealer concerned is Fish Brothers Swindon.

I cannot complain. nothing but good service each time I've been in.

Dave


----------



## viator

Hi to all,
I to have a LEAK FREE scuttle, same as 38rover, my method was different but we have the same result. I am also working on stopping water entering the air intake grille on top the bonnet, I have it sussed, I have the parts( non Fiat), the fixings and the paint, just waiting for a break in the weather. My local Fiat dealer has my van recall listed for an engine cover with clean up. They are waiting for the cover. PM me if you want further information.
viator


----------



## carolgavin

johnc said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> geraldandannie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking like will not have it back till weekend ( a full 2 weeks!!!)
> 
> 
> 
> Wowza! That's a long time
> 
> I think when mine goes it it'll have to be a week, minimum (will need to drop off / pick up on Saturday). I hope it doesn't take any longer than this :?
> 
> Gerald
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi Gerald, I know that is a long time and we certainly were not expecting it to be this long!! Good news is that my independant inspector has seen it and says the engine looks brand new. Not only have they removed, cleaned and replaced*** injectors but they have cleaned off all other rusty bits *and* repainted the whole engine    They are apparently making a brilliant job of it, above and beyond what inspector wanted!!! So all in all worth the 2 weeks, considering I have been asking the since the 14th August 2007 to fix it not too bad really I suppose.
> 
> ***not replaced with new ones just to clarify!! They have put same ones back in!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well done Carol, glad it has all worked out. I can beat your 14th August, my first email to Peugeot Customer (DON'T) Care was back in April. Have just sent third email reminder that I am still waiting for an update.
> 
> Did they make any comment about the judder in reverse
> 
> Regards
> 
> John
Click to expand...

Hi John sent you e-mail on monday re peugeot maybe you never got it!! Much like the supposed e-mails I keeop getting sent from Peugeot but hey ho. The only thing said about the judder is some thingy about gear ratios not high/low enough! Sorry went over my haed but inference was nowt we can do so nothing changes there. When I get mine back, come over and have a look to see what you think as you have seen it before treatment. Oh scotia guy mentioned recalls which supposedly are imminent. Van still at garage will be 2 weeks this saturday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good going for a cosmetic problem eh????


----------



## Grizzly

carolgavin said:


> The only thing said about the judder is some thingy about gear ratios not high/low enough!


Are they saying that the gear box is not up to the job on a motorhome ? If so, why fit that type ? Whoever is responsible for doing so must know that motorhomes have to be able to be driven in reverse and must have an idea of their laden mass and so on.

G


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

Grizzly said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing said about the judder is some thingy about gear ratios not high/low enough!
> 
> 
> 
> Are they saying that the gear box is not up to the job on a motorhome ? If so, why fit that type ? Whoever is responsible for doing so must know that motorhomes have to be able to be driven in reverse and must have an idea of their laden mass and so on.
> 
> G
Click to expand...

Hi,

If you just put it in reverse and then let the clutch out gently without using the accelerator, it will not judder. The engine has enough tourque at idle to move the vehicle quite easily.

We move these MHs on virtually an hourly basis using this technique without any problems.

Not saying its right, but it works.

Regards


----------



## carolgavin

Grizzly said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing said about the judder is some thingy about gear ratios not high/low enough!
> 
> 
> 
> Are they saying that the gear box is not up to the job on a motorhome ? If so, why fit that type ? Whoever is responsible for doing so must know that motorhomes have to be able to be driven in reverse and must have an idea of their laden mass and so on.
> 
> G
Click to expand...

Hi Grizzly TBH they were rather vague so no real idea of what they were or were not saying :? :? :? They didn't seem to think it was an issue but I suppose neither was scuttlegate!!! Will ask again


----------



## MikeH

Hi All.
Just read on MMM forum, Andy Stothert had to have a new gearbox fitted.Clutch judder was so bad it bug**rd up the syncros on two gears. He hasn't replied yet to my question, is it OK now? Fiat told me last week to ask Dealer to check it, when mine goes in for recall work. They will probably say "give it more revs". is Fiat's answer. Looks like it could get expensive for Fiat replacing gearboxs or owners if warranty runs out before they decide to do anything.
Mike H.


----------



## Grizzly

MikeH said:


> Hi All.
> Fiat told me last week to ask Dealer to check it, when mine goes in for recall work. They will probably say "give it more revs". is Fiat's answer. Looks like it could get expensive for Fiat replacing gearboxs or owners if warranty runs out before they decide to do anything.
> Mike H.


Fiat's answer does not seem to address the fundamental problem of why the clutch judders and, in one case anyway is bad enough to mess up the syncromesh ( ? I'm on unknown territory here..)

If those of us who have the problem notify Fiat now, in writing, would Fiat be liable to replace the gearbox if necessary after the warranty runs out ?

G


----------



## carolgavin

*Van causing problems*

Flippin eck chaps my van repair is developing into a saga!! Got call to say it is causing problems. It had a misfire/stutter on accelerating through the gears and a couple of times nearly cut out going uphill. They did flash upgrade today and then took it for test run. Mechanic came back and was not happy with it. Robert (service manager) also went out and he is not happy either, upshot is I will not have it back this weekend so fishing trip out the window    This would have been first trip since August and now sadly not looking likely.


----------



## Grizzly

*Re: Van causing problems*



carolgavin said:


> upshot is I will not have it back this weekend so fishing trip out the window    This would have been first trip since August and now sadly not looking likely.


Look on the bright side Carol; it's going to be a very wet, windy weekend so you'd probably not enjoyed your fishing.

Sorry to hear about the continuing problems though.

There's a photo in today's local paper of our dealer -where the van is due to go soon- sandbagging his doors and reporting that the flood waters are rising outside. What do they say ? It never rains but it pours ? How very true !

G


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Van causing problems*



Grizzly said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> upshot is I will not have it back this weekend so fishing trip out the window    This would have been first trip since August and now sadly not looking likely.
> 
> 
> 
> Look on the bright side Carol; it's going to be a very wet, windy weekend so you'd probably not enjoyed your fishing.
> 
> Sorry to hear about the continuing problems though.
> 
> There's a photo in today's local paper of our dealer -where the van is due to go soon- sandbagging his doors and reporting that the flood waters are rising outside. What do they say ? It never rains but it pours ? How very true !
> 
> G
Click to expand...

Hi Grizzly yep you are probably right! Have just checked our area forecast and its for snow    I was just going to be a spectator in the old fishing, shouting words if encouragement and providing soup and sandwiches. Just need to find something else to do!!!


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: Van causing problems*



carolgavin said:


> upshot is I will not have it back this weekend so fishing trip out the window    This would have been first trip since August and now sadly not looking likely.


This is sad, Carol.  I get really angry when I read reports of motorhomes going in for repair, and not coming out for months on end (I know yours has 'only' been in for 2 weeks).

It's bad, bad, bad.

No doubt someone will be along in a minute, telling me to get it all into perspective, and it's not that bad really. :evil:

Gerald


----------



## 107576

Hi All 
After a massive twelve weeks i finally got my motorhome back including two free dents in the side which they have now repaired , had a phone call from Tim McCann Peugeot customer care , engine cover ordered 3 weeks ago still awaiting phone call to let me know that it is at the dealer ship , decided to take charters dealership to the small claims court for loss of use etc notice issued on the 7th january will update after court case 
Regards
Adrian


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Van causing problems*



geraldandannie said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> upshot is I will not have it back this weekend so fishing trip out the window    This would have been first trip since August and now sadly not looking likely.
> 
> 
> 
> This is sad, Carol.  I get really angry when I read reports of motorhomes going in for repair, and not coming out for months on end (I know yours has 'only' been in for 2 weeks).
> 
> It's bad, bad, bad.
> 
> No doubt someone will be along in a minute, telling me to get it all into perspective, and it's not that bad really. :evil:
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

Well Gerald, I really think someone should get this into perspective, but it b****y well won't be me!!! 
Scunnered by whole thing!! Glad however problem is only cosmetic cos I dread to think how long it would take them to fix the flippin thing if it was anything major.



> Hi All
> After a massive twelve weeks i finally got my motorhome back including two free dents in the side which they have now repaired , had a phone call from Tim McCann Peugeot customer care , engine cover ordered 3 weeks ago still awaiting phone call to let me know that it is at the dealer ship , decided to take charters dealership to the small claims court for loss of use etc notice issued on the 7th january will update after court case
> Regards
> Adrian


Hi Adrian this is our intention as well, unfortunately we are limited by our (scotland) small claims to £700 whereas english system is £5000. Will be checking in with Lawyer to see where we stand.


----------



## Autoquest

I have been waiting 8 weeks for the engine cover - Although there is a part number I'm not entirely sure there is a part...


----------



## carolgavin

Autoquest said:


> I have been waiting 8 weeks for the engine cover - Although there is a part number I'm not entirely sure there is a part...


Hi defo is a part as I know I apparently now have one, just haven't seen it yet!!!


----------



## Autoquest

Can we have a picture when you get it back?


----------



## carolgavin

Autoquest said:


> Can we have a picture when you get it back?


Yep!!! Soon as it comes back I'm out there with me camera just for you petal!! Also included free of charge pics of :flower: *new* scuttle


----------



## Regal

Hi to all you water ingress sufferers

I took the Fiat in to my local dealer (Desera Friern Barnet) on Tuesday for the front scuttle repair and the 3.0 Ltr engine cover. I received a phone call on Tuesday afternoon to say the wrong parts had been supplied.

I was contacted by dealer yesterday asking me to pop in and informed they would fit the engine cover while I waited, which I have done this afternoon,

At the moment the water ingress problem has gone but as the repair is to reseal the front scuttle with sealant, we shall have to wait and see what happens in the future.

So I can confirm the 3.0ltr engine cover does exists and I hope you can see a picture with this post. I hope you get all your vehicles rectified in the very near future.

Steve


----------



## carolgavin

*Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh*

Whispers, shhhhhhhhh I have had it confirmed for definate that my van will arrive on my doorstep tomorrow allegedly, before 12 o'clock no less!!! It was towed away, but is being driven back. Perhaps they thought it was too dangerous to drive but is ok now they have fixed it??? Don't want to say it too loud in case I jinx it  

Expect photies after 5:30pm!!!


----------



## Autoquest

I'm getting excited already  

Ooops nearly forgot - Regal, that looks great - Bet your chuffed.


----------



## Polo

*Return of THE VAN*

Well what can we say other than we are also holding our breath, for you!!! Do so hope that it does appear and that they have had the goodness to present it in a clean and sparkling condition, as well as in perfect working order! Who can tell with Peugeot!!!! Keep on at them and try wringing compensation of some sort. It won't be much but something is better than nothin' eh?

B & R


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat and Peugeot*

Carol

I am sat at the edge of my seat in anticipation!

Russell

Can't wait for the watering can test


----------



## carolgavin

Isn't it exciting apparently Robert (lovely guy) now has a wee queue of motorhomes ready to come in!! Also forgot to say all you lovely peugeot folks watch for a stutter/misfire going through the gears on acceleration as I heard on the QT ( trusting you not to tell!!) that there is a wee problem with the ECU similar I think to the fiat problem. Needs a flash upgrade. Mine had to be done twice. 
Oh a question, to test for misfire problem how many miles roughly do you think you would need to drive to diagnose, fix then test drive again x2 times?? We took note of mileage you see soooooooo want to know that no one has been on a wee weekend away! (not that I think they would but hey you never know)


----------



## rrusty

Mine is going in on Tuesday to get as follows.

5221
5247
5248
5251

Fiat said that the scuttle was not a problem therefore they would not seal the scuttle or fit the engine cover, the phone No I called was 01753 511431.
When I booked the van in at the garage I said that I wanted the scuttle sealed also the engine cover fitted they said they would order the parts once they had a look at the van. The garage I have booked into has already done at least one other motorhome to the spec as above.


----------



## carolgavin

rrusty said:


> Mine is going in on Tuesday to get as follows.
> 
> 5221
> 5247
> 5248
> 5251
> 
> Fiat said that the scuttle was not a problem therefore they would not seal the scuttle or fit the engine cover, the phone No I called was 01753 511431.
> When I booked the van in at the garage I said that I wanted the scuttle sealed also the engine cover fitted they said they would order the parts once they had a look at the van. The garage I have booked into has already done at least one other motorhome to the spec as above.


Hiya rrusty got me fingersies and toesies crossed that all goes well, good luck petal!!


----------



## rrusty

Thanks Carol, you also.


----------



## carolgavin

*IT IS BACK"!!!!!!!*

The van has returned. Pics to follow!!


----------



## Polo

*Van's Return*

Thank goodness for that I can at least take breath at last! Do hope all is well and that it came back clean.


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Van's Return*



Polo said:


> Thank goodness for that I can at least take breath at last! Do hope all is well and that it came back clean.


Well tis bogging on the outside, but as we left it on the inside. Only 28 miles more on the clock. 
Having problems downloading stupid photos from my camers. Where is sandj and zeb when you need them?????


----------



## carolgavin

*new scuttle*

new more rigid scuttle. new water channel at side of scuttle. one on each side


----------



## carolgavin

Picture of engine cover in-situ you can just see it and no more. next pic will be better


----------



## carolgavin

Hopefully better picture of engine cover


----------



## Regal

BUT Carolgavin

you wont be able to can see the rusty injectors anymore !!!!

Glad you have got it back now, seems like it was away for a long time.

What repairs did they carry out in the end ? and I hope the misfire has gone ?

Steve


----------



## carolgavin

new hp pump which I am reliably informed is the wee black thing near the top of the picture


----------



## carolgavin

Next one clean engine mounting


----------



## carolgavin

nice sealed scuttle with no gap you can put your finger through. this is last one. for all you peugeot owners out there, I have been told that there is a supply issue with the engine covers ie they don't have any!!!


Edited for clarity!!!


----------



## geraldandannie

Looks sweet, Carol. Nice and neat  

Have you bitten the bullet, and poured a watering can of water over it yet? :wink:

Gerald


----------



## carolgavin

Regal
1. Removed old scuttle replaced and bonded new modified scuttle with two water channels made of rubber (I think) on either side.
2. Cleaned and treated engine mountings 
3. Removed injectors checked for rust, cleaned replaced.
4. Removed rocker cover and replaced with new part.
5. HP pump replaced
6. Engine cover fitted, this will divert any water safely away from engine.
7. Flash upgrade to ECU for misfire, not driven it yet but will go for a wee drive in a couple of days to try it out. According to garage this has cured misfire......only time will tell.
8.* Noticeable *decrease in *engine noise *on vans return.

No recalls!!!

Gerald no watering can but was raining snowing and hailing in the space of 5 mins when it was brought back. Engine was dry. Also it had been raining and snowing heavily about an hour before we got it back and engine was bone dry. Should have said a big thank you to Robert McM at Robins and Day.


----------



## Autoquest

Looks great, thanks for the pics - I am printing them out as we speak for my dealer to see.

Bet your chuffed


----------



## geraldandannie

carolgavin said:


> Gerald no watering can but was raining snowing and hailing in the space of 5 mins when it was brought back. Engine was dry. Also it had been raining and snowing heavily about an hour before we got it back and engine was bone dry. Should have said a big thank you to Robert McM at Robins and Day.


That's great news, Carol. I don't know when we'll 'get the call', but it's looking like it might be worth having it done now.

Gerald


----------



## christopherobin

Looks good to me, Carol

Chris


----------



## Polo

*Van's Return*

Carol the piccys are good. As far as the rest of us Peugeot owners are concerned, I bet they don't issue any 'recall instructions' !!! Unless of course we all kick and scream :twisted:

Glad its back, and now its the best time - that is being able to enjoy using it :!:

You were lucky with only 28 extra miles on the clock! Ours came back black as hell where it had stood outside for 7 weeks but with 50 extra miles on the clock :roll:

Anyway, now enjoy using it.


----------



## MikeH

*New scuttle*

Carol.
Looks good, now you want the weather to change so you can get away and enjoy it.
Does this now mean, that, we can now have a new one piece scuttle fitted(now we know, they are available) instead of bodging the old one and having to go back later to have it done properly. Plus saving us and Fiat/Peugot time and money, only having to have it done once. No sorry, that's asking too much, they wouldn't do that, would they?
I'm going to phone Fiat tomorrow and ask them.
Mike.


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: New scuttle*



MikeH said:


> Carol.
> Looks good, now you want the weather to change so you can get away and enjoy it.
> Does this now mean, that, we can now have a new one piece scuttle fitted(now we know, they are available) instead of bodging the old one and having to go back later to have it done properly. Plus saving us and Fiat/Peugot time and money, only having to have it done once. No sorry, that's asking too much, they wouldn't do that, would they?
> I'm going to phone Fiat tomorrow and ask them.
> Mike.


Mike sweetie I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the new scuttle is still in two pieces. Check pic out above. It does seem to be more rigid though and ours has no visible gap and dont think it has a rubber bit along top of it but need to check!! Got gammy leg at mo so cannot nip out will get gav to check tomorrow!!!!
Phone Fiart anyway though, just to say hi :roll: :roll:


----------



## zulurita

Carol so pleased for you, at last  you have your motorhome back. Now it is time to enjoy it.


----------



## carolgavin

Forgot to say thank you so much to everyone who has helped me through the last 6 months. Thanks for listening to my rants and cheering me up. You are all stars :notworthy: :notworthy: 
What a fantastic community spirit motorhomefacts has!!
Oh no another water feature, I am crying!!!!!! :lol:  :lol:


----------



## Polo

*Van's return*

Hi there Carol. Don't add to our floods weeping! I can only say how I agree wholeheartedly with you. What a fantastic community! So much help and support.


----------



## MikeH

*New scuttle*

Carol.
My mistake. When you said new "no gap scuttle". I looked at the photo and couldn't see the join. But it's the angle photo was taken and on second look can see it. 
Will still ask if I can have a new one, when it goes in.
Mike.


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: New scuttle*



MikeH said:


> Carol.
> My mistake. When you said new "no gap scuttle". I looked at the photo and couldn't see the join. But it's the angle photo was taken and on second look can see it.
> Will still ask if I can have a new one, when it goes in.
> Mike.


Hi Mike I have gone back and edited that post as it is a bit misleading so thanks for pointing that out. Wouldn't want to get anyones hopes up! Good luck with yours and let us know what happens and when!!!


----------



## EdsMH

*Further Update*

Well the Argos is back after final two recalls. Thanks for GerryD putting me on to Stormonts at Dunstable. Best Fiat customer service so far. They only do commercials and did the gearbox bearing mod and installed the cover on our 3.0litre.

I liked the fact that the service manager Jason actually came out to show me what had been done and check I was happy. The odd drop of water still gets through the scuttle join but runs off over the front of the engine thanks to the cover. They also had adjusted handbrake at no charge.

Other intel gleaned was that they think the X250 is excellent. They have had none in with mechanical problems since their release and only had the recalls to do. On the bearing recall he said mine had incurred no damage but they had had one where the bearing had failed as a result of a casting/machining error. If you have this recall dont wait to get it done was the message.

Very pleased and I will be using them for my future servicing even though they are 30 miles away.

Good result and a couple of piccies are attached

Regards

Ed


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

*Re: Further Update*



EdsMH said:


> Well the Argos is back after final two recalls. Thanks for GerryD putting me on to Stormonts at Dunstable. Best Fiat customer service so far. They only do commercials and did the gearbox bearing mod and installed the cover on our 3.0litre.
> 
> I liked the fact that the service manager Jason actually came out to show me what had been done and check I was happy. The odd drop of water still gets through the scuttle join but runs off over the front of the engine thanks to the cover. They also had adjusted handbrake at no charge.
> 
> Other intel gleaned was that they think the X250 is excellent. They have had none in with mechanical problems since their release and only had the recalls to do. On the bearing recall he said mine had incurred no damage but they had had one where the bearing had failed as a result of a casting/machining error. If you have this recall dont wait to get it done was the message.
> 
> Very pleased and I will be using them for my future servicing even though they are 30 miles away.
> 
> Good result and a couple of piccies are attached
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ed


Nice to hear that you are happy and whats 30 miles there and back if you get a job done properly by professionals who obviously take pride in customer relations.

Regards


----------



## EdsMH

Peter

you are absolutely right but it is the aggro of trying different places to find the right ones. ... but I guess that is where MHF comes in.  

By the way thanks for the advice on reversing without revs which feels wrong not touching the throttle but no judder on the flat at all. Have not tried reversing on hills yet though.

Regards

Ed


----------



## briank100

May I add the following link to a parallel thread on the Out and About Live forum http://tinyurl.com/yr9vbs, started by Andy Stothert, the MMM and Caravan Club mag photographer and contributor, regarding the problem he has with severe judder while reversing. There is also a poll thread on the same forum folk may wish to add to.
Has anyone considered the national press or TV, such as Watchdog, who will be less averse to being critical as they are less sensitive to Fiat advertising bucks??
Many thanks, and good luck to you all
Brian Kirby


----------



## cabby

Hi Ed, is it the 3.0 Fiat engine you have.

cabby


----------



## EdsMH

Cabby

Yes it is and it is a lovely engine performance wise.

Ed


----------



## carolgavin

*Water Test Report*

Test Report. At around 13.30hrs yesterday (Tues) we carried out the 'water test'. The weather was terrible, pouring with rain and so rendered our watering can purchased for this very occasion useless.

The result.........................it still leaks!! Gutted.....................


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: Water Test Report*



carolgavin said:


> The result.........................it still leaks!! Gutted.....................


 Sorry to hear this, Carol. Is it coming through the join in the scuttle?

Gerald


----------



## carolgavin

Previously it leaked at the join now it leaks everywhere from right to left. It seems to be getting in anywhere and everywhere. Big decision looms. Cannot put into words how disappointed I am.


----------



## johnc

*Re: Water Test Report*



carolgavin said:


> Test Report. At around 13.30hrs yesterday (Tues) we carried out the 'water test'. The weather was terrible, pouring with rain and so rendered our watering can purchased for this very occasion useless.
> The result.........................it still leaks!! Gutted.....................


Carol and all other water ingress victims. Sorry to hear the news.

I was afraid this might be the outcome, reason for me being a smart a%[email protected] was that I was suspicious of Fiat and Peugeot fitting an engine cover, thought is that they knew that the scuttle fix would not work and they must have hoped that the engine cover would keep us at bay.

Clearly there is a long road to travel yet.


----------



## geraldandannie

Indeed, John. It's like painting over cracks - hopefully you won't notice the effect, but they're still there, and causing problems.

Clearly, the only real solution (I seem to remember saying this a time or two before :roll: ) is to redesign the scuttle as one piece, from inflexible (but not rigid) plastic, with suitable drainage holes and take-off pipes into the wheelarches or by the side of the engine. Also clearly, this is very expensive. Mould tools cost many thousands of pounds / Euros, and the bigger they are, the more expensive they are, the cost rising as an exponential. This, I suspect, is why they made it as a 2-piece.

The latest scuttle may well have been moulded on the same tools, from a slightly different plastic mix to make it stiffer. Again, a pathetic attempt to paint over the cracks.

I looked at the scuttle on my Skoda. It's one piece, and it doesn't leak at all. No injector covers needed. If Skoda can do it (as can many other manufacturers), why not Fiat?

Fiat were not expecting the scuttle to leak. That's why there were no covers over anything in the engine bay, and also it's why in the recalls and campaigns, covers are now being fitted. They recognise they can't stop it leaking successfully, so let's try to stop the leaks causing any damage. If they were expecting it to pour water all over the engine (as motorbikes do), they would have taken precautions from the start.

I wish you well with your decisions, Carol. It must be horrible.

Incidentally, Fiat are exhibiting at the NEC show in February. I think some questions need to be asked on the stand. :evil:

Gerald


----------



## carolgavin

geraldandannie said:


> clipped.. They recognise they can't stop it leaking successfully, so let's try to stop the leaks causing any damage.
> Gerald


This I think is very, very true. But in the eyes of the law they have been given the opportunity to repair and it has been a failure so the inherant fault still remains. This is what we were always afraid of. In my book this is unnaceptable as regardless of how you look at it you have a faulty van which at present canot be rectified. They have minimised the effect but have not eliminated the cause.

Quick edit just to say, it's not the end of the world as we know it but it does kinda dent your happiness a tad!! Still I will keep smiling


----------



## 38Rover

Hi Carol
Don't despair and don't rely on Fiat.
It's not rocket science to fix the problem but first you must understand it.
It's not just the seal of the scuttle to the screen although that is a major contributor.
I have fixed mine took a day and cost £10 do not place any reliance on the Fiat fix such as engine covers bit like putting up an umbrella indoors when the roof is leaking.
I have posted on this thread some time ago about Aug?Sept I think the method I used to cure the problem if you like I will email you the details and pics send me your e mail mine is [email protected]
Colin


----------



## carolgavin

38Rover said:


> Hi Carol
> Don't despair and don't rely on Fiat.
> It's not rocket science to fix the problem but first you must understand it.
> It's not just the seal of the scuttle to the screen although that is a major contributor.
> I have fixed mine took a day and cost £10 do not place any reliance on the Fiat fix such as engine covers bit like putting up an umbrella indoors when the roof is leaking.
> I have posted on this thread some time ago about Aug?Sept I think the method I used to cure the problem if you like I will email you the details and pics send me your e mail mine is [email protected]
> Colin


Thanks colin e-mail sent!


----------



## Autoquest

Carol - Get some thick white insulation sponge (about 1/2inch square) and run it down the underneath outer edges of your bonnet, most of the water pours in there. Also get hold of Peter Swifts 'Ski Chute' and fit that underneath the scuttle join - My scuttle repair leaks like a sieve through the join but I can honestly say the engine does not get wet with these simple remedies in place - Because I don't have the engine cover (yet) I keep the engine treated with WD40 and it all works a treat - Go on, give it a wiz and enjoy your van this summer.


----------



## rowley

I found, like many others, that silicone sealant does not seem to work on the join. I used the grey (gungy) mastic that many coachbuilders use. I forced that into the join and it is still ok after 4 months. Also, like others, I fitted some drain pipes, unfortunately I did this before seeing the Swift solution. The only bit I cannot sort out is the 15mm gap where the scuttle has bowed. Duct tape is working on a temporary basis.


----------



## dilly

*Don't Get Done, Get Dom*

Anybody brave enough to challange your M/H dealer or Fiat garage about this water ingress fiasco on tele?

Don't Get Done, Get Dom

Don't Get Done, Get Dom, BBC One's hugely popular consumer affairs programme, is back for a third series and is eager to hear from anyone who has a serious consumer complaint, or who wants help negotiating the best possible deal on a major purchase.

Whatever the complaint, no problem is too big, or too small. Whatever you're planning to buy Dom will aim to get you a fantastic deal.

Please contact Flame TV ASAP for further information.

Tel: 020 7278 5052 (please leave contact details should you get through to answer phone). 
Email: [email protected] 
Mail:
Don't Get Done, Get Dom
Flame Television Ltd
6-9 Cynthia Street
London 
N1 9JF

Ian.


----------



## johnc

*Peugeot Bombshell.*

Following several strong emails to Peugeot complaining about the delay in getting my van problems rectified, I received an email from Peugeot today. The reply stated that they had not yet announced the recall yet and at the moment they had no better solution to the scuttle leak than had already been carried out.


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Peugeot Bombshell.*



johnc said:


> Following several strong emails to Peugeot complaining about the delay in getting my van problems rectified, I received an email from Peugeot today. The reply stated that they had not yet announced the recall yet and at the moment they had no better solution to the scuttle leak than had already been carried out.


Good news for me in a round about way cos if they can't fix it my decision is made for me. They are getting it back as soon as I can arrange it!!!


----------



## zulurita

Sorry to read Carol of your continuing problems. 

Must admit I haven't looked under the bonnet recently. Went to Shepton Mallet show in Jan and we have had some pretty awful weather. MH started ok and no problems driving and same when leaving show.

As I have the engine cover I am hoping all will be ok. Shame Carol to have to part with your MH. We have a lot planned for this year and only time will tell I guess if the Fiat base vehicle behaves itself.

so far I haven't tried reversing up a steep hill to test this Juddering in reverse.


----------



## rrusty

Same here Carol, I put the M/H in to Arnold Clark at Uphall on Tuesday I asked the receptionist what all the work they were going to do she said it would be 4 recalls none of them were the scuttle or engine cover I told her that I would like the scuttle & engine cover done and that when I phoned to book the M/H in I was told that this would be no problem she went away to find out if this was correct, came back and said that they would do this.
Got a phone call on Friday to say that the M/H was ready I asked if they had sealed the scuttle and fitted the engine cover they said that they had.
Went to collect the M/H today and again I asked if they had sealed the scuttle and fitted the engine cover yes they said they had, I went out to have a look at the M/H it was covered in snow & ice so I started it up and opened the bonnet and yes they had done the engine cover I scraped of some of the snow from the scuttle but could not be certain if they had sealed it I did not want to disturb anything I had also brought a bottle of water to pour over the windscreen but there was no point because of the snow & ice that was in the scuttle. So I drove it the 40+ miles back home by which time it had all melted so I poured the water over the windscreen and it came pouring through the scuttle, they had never even done the bloody thing. I am so pissed off.
I think I will just seal everything myself.


----------



## geraldandannie

rrusty said:


> I think I will just seal everything myself.


I wonder if that's what Fiat are hoping will happen - that we'll eventually get so fed up with waiting for them to do it, we'll just do it ourselves.

Maybe we should organise an MHF "Scuttle" meet - park them round in a circle, nose in, and sort the things ourselves.

Thinking ... :?

Gerald


----------



## zulurita

Sounds like a very good idea Gerald


----------



## carolgavin

geraldandannie said:


> rrusty said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I will just seal everything myself.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if that's what Fiat are hoping will happen - that we'll eventually get so fed up with waiting for them to do it, we'll just do it ourselves.
> 
> Maybe we should organise an MHF "Scuttle" meet - park them round in a circle, nose in, and sort the things ourselves.
> 
> Thinking ... :?
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

Maybe we should do just that but invite representatives from Peugeot and Fiat (not to mention any member of the press we can find that may be interested) and show them once and for all what the problem is as they seem to be too stupid to work it out for themselves.
As for us we are thoroughly disgusted by the whole affair and have absolutely NO confidence in Peugeots ability to fix this whatever. Here is what explorer group have to say and I quote from an e-mail I received,

*" It has been our position from the start that the only solution to this issue is to stop water entering the engine compartment in the 1st place, as sad as your continuing problem is it might just help Peugeot to realise that they have yet to solve the root cause"*


----------



## wenlock

Have I missed out ? What is the Swift solution to the leaking scuttle ? Can some kind person point me in the right direction ? 
Paul


----------



## carolgavin

wenlock said:


> Have I missed out ? What is the Swift solution to the leaking scuttle ? Can some kind person point me in the right direction ?
> Paul


Hey paul where have you been???? Hold on a few mins till I go back and find swifts solution which by the way is only temporary I understand till fixed by fiat.

Back in five!!!!


----------



## carolgavin

Found this on page 12 of this thread

All Swift production now has a sealed joint plus the rubber trim running along the bottom screen is sealed along its length we are now looking at a fix for the two small holes at either end but this will entail taking the two screws out of the small triangular panels and removing them.As can be seen on the photo we will put a drain hole on the N/side to stop water collecting there if the MH is leaning to the N/Side.All of this will be discussed with Fiat.Just a point on Peugeot they are in a difficult position as really they have to rely on Fiat as their proportion of MH production is a fraction of Fiats and I believe that everyone is waiting for the ultimate fix from the engineers.I have told Fiat a small statement from them would go a long way in helping all of us through a difficult situation.Peter.


----------



## viator

Hi to Paul(wenlock),
On the 18/1/2007 I sent you a PM and a separate email witha copy of instructions for fixing the scuttle leak, perhaps you did not get them, if you did, please be kind enough to acknowledge.
viator


----------



## 109613

Hi. I'm new here and have been following this thread for a while and have a question. Is this all fiat chassis? even 2008? as I have just bought a Riviera and would like to know if I should address this issue with my dealer before I pick up the MH. ( 1st of March)

Regards and thanks


----------



## carolgavin

rustygun said:


> Hi. I'm new here and have been following this thread for a while and have a question. Is this all fiat chassis? even 2008? as I have just bought a Riviera and would like to know if I should address this issue with my dealer before I pick up the MH. ( 1st of March)
> 
> Regards and thanks


Difficult question to answer, but potentially yes it could have this problem. It all depends on when it was built. If it has a two piece scuttle with a join in the middle then as I have said the potential is there. Look under the bonnet and see if you can see evidence of rust. A few pages back there are pictures of rusty engines you can use as a comparison. Make sure ias it is a fiat all recalls have been done. Check out the sticky post at the top of the front page for up to date info
Oh welcome to motorhomefacts hope you are enjoying the site. Congrats on your new purchase and good luck!!


----------



## 109613

carolgavin said:


> rustygun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi. I'm new here and have been following this thread for a while and have a question. Is this all fiat chassis? even 2008? as I have just bought a Riviera and would like to know if I should address this issue with my dealer before I pick up the MH. ( 1st of March)
> 
> Regards and thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Difficult question to answer, but potentially yes it could have this problem. It all depends on when it was built. If it has a two piece scuttle with a join in the middle then as I have said the potential is there. Look under the bonnet and see if you can see evidence of rust. A few pages back there are pictures of rusty engines you can use as a comparison. Make sure ias it is a fiat all recalls have been done. Check out the sticky post at the top of the front page for up to date info
> Oh welcome to motorhomefacts hope you are enjoying the site. Congrats on your new purchase and good luck!!
Click to expand...

 Thanks. I live where they salt the roads until late April.... this would obviously speed up the corrosion factor with water leakage. I will check this out with the dealer. Love this site, great people and lots of tips.


----------



## rowley

Rustygun, make sure that you check the alignment of the scuttle onto the windscreen. My scuttle is bowed.


----------



## wenlock

carolgavin
Many thanks for that info.

Viator
Your E mail was received with gratitude. I am still waiting for a dry day when I am free to tackle the sealing job. In the mean time knowledge is power, as they say, and I am interested in any and all information on fixing this pesky problem.

Best wishes to all in tackling this fault, who knows maybe Fiat will acknowledge their responsibilities.Those of you who believe in miracles please pray for one. 

Paul


----------



## MikeH

*Fiat water ingress*

Hi. Carol, sorry to hear about your unsuccessful recall. It took long enough, I thought they would have done it properly and checked it before sending it home.
Finally found somewhere to fix my MH. Stormont of Dunstable. I have waited 6 weeks for Brownhills to get some courtesy cars in, due in Feb, only to be told when I phoned Friday. We haven't got any and don't think we are getting any. Phone call to Fiat and young lady by the name of, Kay, phoned Stormont for me to arrange courtesy car, because I am disabled, and spoke to Steve in the service dept. They are going to come and collect the van for me and deliver it back when finished. Sealing scuttle and fitting engine cover, plus the other recalls 5219. 5221. 5247. 5248 and 5251. It's going in on the 12th. There's been a couple of good reports about Stormont, so I hope I can do the same.
Watch this space.
Mike. H.


----------



## GerryD

Funny how things turn out. I was the first to recommend Stormont at Dunstable and personally am not so impressed now. They did all of the service bulletins, shouldn't call them recalls as only two of them are. Didn't have the engine cover as it was in the first weeks and they were not generally available. They do have the engine cover waiting for me now and I will have it done eventually. But they ordered a mirror to try to cure the radio reception and are still waiting over 6 weeks for the mirror. Turns out they forgot to order twice.
If the mirror does not arrive within the next couple of weeks I shall get the engine cover fitted on its own. Fortunately they are only 5 miles away.


----------



## MikeH

*Fiat recalls etc.*

Gerry.
Are they replacing the mirror under warranty? If so I will ask them for the same while mine is in. Reception is diabolical, even going down the A1 to Barnet I have to turn it off at times or listen to cd's.
Mike H.


----------



## GerryD

*Re: Fiat recalls etc.*



MikeH said:


> Gerry.
> Are they replacing the mirror under warranty? If so I will ask them for the same while mine is in. Reception is diabolical, even going down the A1 to Barnet I have to turn it off at times or listen to cd's.
> Mike H.


Mike,
Yes it is under warranty but unlikely that they will be able to do it at the same time. As explained I am still waiting for the mirror so they are unlikely to get one in soon for you.
I am not certain that the mirror/aerial is the issue, they are replacing mine because they beleive that the cable is broken. However I believe that the issue with radio reception is one of poor design on the part of the converters. The bulk of the Luton overcab and the width of the body is causing almost a Faraday effect. The combination of aluminium and fibre-glass will cause a natural shield to radio waves. It was not so bad with the old chassis as it used a conventional aerial that was more forward of the conversion.
I believe that the MH manufacturers have skimped on the aerial provision and should have considered the reception issue at the design stage of the conversion. If any manufacturer were to fit a low profile aerial onto the roof or anywhere outside the conversion body you would get first class reception.
You cannot blame the chassis manufacturer for the aerial issue because the aerial is suitable for its original purpose. I realise that there are contributors on this forum who have added this to their list of faults with the X250 but it is not Fiat/Peugeots fault if the converter has failed to consider this issue. You can guarantee that no converter tests the radio when they design the body.


----------



## 108370

For what its worth !

I bought a Citroen based Nu Venture van despite the issues regarding water and I have already posted my comments regarding the van ( Excellent )

However I was well aware through this site of potential water problems , so once I took delivery of the van I looked to see the extent of the problem.

Sure enough water ingress onto the injector ( one only ).

I spoke with my local Citroen dealer and asked for advice but knowing that there was no recall issued for my chassis number ( VOSA Site )

However what has come to light is that there are ' Info Rapid ' notes from Citroen. These are basically issues that have been reported by customers that are problems BUT NOT safety related.

It appears that there are a number of these for the Relay , water ingress from the scuttle, leaks at the top of the windscreen, water /mud into the headlamps, leaking power steering pumps etc.

These will only be dealt with IF the customer reports the problem , they will not be routinely looked at and they are not a recall.

I advised the dealer of my water leak and he said that as far as they were concerned they would be paid by Citroen and therefore it was not a problem to carry out repairs under warranty.

When I asked how it would be dealt with he said that the instruction was quite detailed and involved removing the bonnet , plastic scuttle etc and that there was a parts list of items required.

As they had not done one before he wanted to check if it would a bodyshop job or workshop job.

I await a call for it to be booked in.

I asked if he thought they would issue a recall and he said he would doubt it as they were not safety issues and as most vans were commercially owned and used everyday ( somewhat without care) it was unlikely to present any problems to Citroen.

Anyway we shall wait and see outcome and I will report back.

John


----------



## 108370

Just an update.

Citroen dealer called today to arrange a booking for Wednesday next week.

He told me that the fix was a 3 hour job according to Citroen But he wanted the van all day , just in case , as they have not done one before.

He asked if I needed a loan car for the day as well.

He has ordered the parts ??? from Citroen and would advise if there was any problem

So far so good but the proof of the pudding etc......


----------



## carolgavin

Hi hope all goes well with your repair. Fingers crossed!!


----------



## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Hi

Engine cover fitted to 3.0 MultiJet today.

Russell


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Fiat*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> Engine cover fitted to 3.0 MultiJet today.
> 
> Russell


Great Russell are you happy with it??


----------



## 96299

I get my 3 ltr cover and starter fuse done on monday.

steve


----------



## linal

Hi my m/home has been booked Mon. for first service & recalls the garage said that they would need most of the day not for the service but as 1 of the recalls invole a 2 coat treatment to protect engine from water ingress I explained it was an A class and as such didn't have a water problem he went to check phoned me back & said there are 6 recalls from Fiat for my van I didn't ask what they all were tho he did say the engine waxing was 1 of them. I shall inform you what was done later who knows may even have a new engine cover needed or not. 

Alex.


----------



## geraldandannie

linal said:


> I explained it was an A class and as such didn't have a water problem he went to check phoned me back & said there are 6 recalls from Fiat for my van I didn't ask what they all were tho he did say the engine waxing was 1 of them.


How interesting. Thanks for posting that. I / we had always assumed that A-class motorhomes (with a completely different front) wouldn't have the problem. I presume you've lifted your bonnet - just in case? :wink:

By the way, don't forget the :: latest information :: post to check official VOSA recalls, and Fiat _campaigns_ (they don't call them recalls).



linal said:


> I shall inform you what was done later who knows may even have a new engine cover needed or not.


Please do, Alex. Thank you.

Gerald


----------



## linal

Hi thanks Gerald I did miss that post i've now copied it and will take it with me perhaps find out how much the garage knows about the probs.
Will keep you informed.
On a diff. note I posted on the main Fiat forum asking why Fiat & peugeot both using the same engines differ in that Fiat stipulate 1 yearly' or X 'miles and peugeot stipulate similer 'X' miles or 2 yearly service I also asked if it was a Fiat generated pricing policy for the servicing as checking prices via main agents the peugeot service was around £50 cheaper on average. Only joined the Fiat forum last week to ask the ? but no surprise nobody from Fiat has answered.

Alex.


----------



## GerryD

geraldandannie said:


> linal said:
> 
> 
> 
> I explained it was an A class and as such didn't have a water problem he went to check phoned me back & said there are 6 recalls from Fiat for my van I didn't ask what they all were tho he did say the engine waxing was 1 of them.
> 
> 
> 
> How interesting. Thanks for posting that. I / we had always assumed that A-class motorhomes (with a completely different front) wouldn't have the problem. I presume you've lifted your bonnet - just in case? :wink:
> 
> By the way, don't forget the :: latest information :: post to check official VOSA recalls, and Fiat _campaigns_ (they don't call them recalls).
> 
> 
> 
> linal said:
> 
> 
> 
> I shall inform you what was done later who knows may even have a new engine cover needed or not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please do, Alex. Thank you.
> 
> Gerald
Click to expand...

It is highly likely that Fiat do not know that it is an A class. I would imagine that the database only searches for the CampingCar chassis.

Gerry


----------



## rowley

Alex, when I collected my Twin from the dealer he said that the first service would be 2 years. However, I have not found any info to confirm this.


----------



## GerryD

rowley said:


> Alex, when I collected my Twin from the dealer he said that the first service would be 2 years. However, I have not found any info to confirm this.


The service interval shown in the Fiat handbook shows 45000km. I queried this with the Fiat dealer and he showed me the service sheet. Nowhere on the service sheet does it stipulate a timed service interval, just the distance. This is in line with modern thinking especially as vehicles are now using synthetic oil, which will not contaminate from engine burn, nor will it age through non-use (Always the biggest problem with a MH). Buy a new Cadillac and benefit from the 100,000 mile service interval.
This equates to 28,000 miles, which means that if I keep this vehicle as long as the previous one with the same mileage I will not need a service.
Personally, I shall still have the oil and filters changed annually.
Gerry


----------



## Spacerunner

My service schedule states that there is a 'low mileage annual service', presumable this will include such things as door hinges, tyre wear and so on. I certainly think that with a new vehicle, a trained mechanic needs to give it a once over annually.


----------



## linal

Hi all I contacted Fiat thro the freephone number the chap there didn't know if 1year or 2 yearly he gave me an other number he also didn't know and went to find out he came back saying that it was every year I then phoned a Fiat approved garage who asked me mileage etc and said that it was £170 for the first (mini service with that mileage) I asked him about the 45000km. and no timescale in handbook which he said he had no knowledge about. I have it booked in on Mon. but I think i'll be doing some phoning around some Fiat main dealers sales & service and try and get to the bottom of it . Will keep you posted.

Alex.


----------



## GerryD

I shall use my local friendly BMW dealership as usual. Son is Service manager.


----------



## linal

Hi all well as promised I phoned a few Fiat agents this morning also the commercial phone help line in Italy not one could answer without going to check but the outcome is 28000mls. or 1year. Not 1 could answer why Peugeot (same engine) was every 2 years / 20000mls. The chap in Italy said " each manufacturer probably decides what was best for their engines" I left it there as it didn't think me telling him both engines were the same had sunk in. Looks like Fiat is looking after their dealers well.

Alex.


----------



## Spacerunner

linal said:


> Hi all well as promised I phoned a few Fiat agents this morning also the commercial phone help line in Italy not one could answer without going to check but the outcome is 28000mls. or 1year. Not 1 could answer why Peugeot (same engine) was every 2 years / 20000mls. The chap in Italy said " each manufacturer probably decides what was best for their engines" I left it there as it didn't think me telling him both engines were the same had sunk in. Looks like Fiat is looking after their dealers well.
> 
> Alex.


Well done for getting that info. I shall still be going annually for the low mileage service, just for peace of mind.


----------



## linal

Hi Spacerunner so am I looks like we have no option if we want the warrenty to stand.

Alex.


----------



## GerryD

Always remember, there is nothing in the warranty that compels you to use a Fiat dealer. Just as long as you can prove that the annual check or service was carried out according to the schedule, that any parts used were genuine parts and that the servicing company is VAT registered.
That applies to anything, motor vehicles are no different from any other commodity.


----------



## carolgavin

GerryD said:


> Always remember, there is nothing in the warranty that compels you to use a Fiat dealer. Just as long as you can prove that the annual check or service was carried out according to the schedule, that any parts used were genuine parts and that the servicing company is VAT registered.
> That applies to anything, motor vehicles are no different from any other commodity.


Thanks Gerry didn't know that


----------



## Tucano

Been away from the forum for quite a while so thought I would give an update re Scuttlegate and my van.
Gave the van to the dealer in November saying I don't want it back until it is fixed, still waiting, do I care anymore, not really ~~~~~~~~~
Regards ,
Norman


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi Norman

Welcome back. Sorry to hear your van's still 'in dock'. Have you had an update from the dealer? Have you asked?

Incidentally, I'm trying to keep an updated post :: here :: so people can see what the latest situation is.

Gerald


----------



## 96299

TUCANO said:


> Been away from the forum for quite a while so thought I would give an update re Scuttlegate and my van.
> Gave the van to the dealer in November saying I don't want it back until it is fixed, still waiting, do I care anymore, not really ~~~~~~~~~
> Regards ,
> Norman


Hi norman

can you tell us why it is taking so long :roll: Cant be just the scuttlegate stuff,can it..? 8O

steve


----------



## stewartwebr

Hello,

Due to collect my new Swift Voyager on the 3rd March are the new Swifts and Fiats still suffer with the scuttlegate issues. Swift were able to sort out the issues on my 2007 Sundance 630L i currently have.

Stewart


----------



## rowley

Stewart, from what I understand Swift have been carrying out their own modification to the scuttle. Wish mine was a Swift now!


----------



## 38Rover

Hi
There is a quick cheap and fully efective DIY fix for the water ingress problem takes a few hours and cost less than £10.
See my post last Sept/Oct on this massive thread or e mail me for details and photos dont wait for Fiat you could wait for ever then it's a bodge.
[email protected] 
Colin


----------



## rocky58

The firm where I work hired a citreon van x250 reg 57 so I thought I would l look under the bonnet.It was a dry day and there was an engine cover fitted.There was rust to the right of it on the engine block and and water marks on the engine cover.It had the scuttle with joining in the middle fitted.


----------



## Tucano

Gents,
The water ingress problem is only part of the story with our van. I have been waiting for new seat cushions since we first picked the van up, also a new habitation door after I investigated the mechanism myself and told the dealer we needed a new one.
Baldwins assure me that the Fiat side of things are in order but I have told them I don't want the van back until everything is corrected, I am not doing another 300 mile round trip for the fun of things.
I have really lost interest because of other personal matters that are far more important at the moment.
Regards to all,
Norman


----------



## 108370

Ok it went in today and the water leak was not done.

According to the dealer mine is a series 3 van and all the Citroen approved mods for water ingress were in place. This was despite the technicians saying it was an obvious problem.

The dealer can do nothing without the OK from Citroen.

He checked and adjusted handbrake , updated the software and checked reverse gear as a precaution , using info gained from this site for Fiat based vehicles.

He is advising Citroen but I shall do the job myself , its simple to do and will stop me having raised blood pressure.

I think it would take me about 2 hours tops.

Other than that this vehicle is excellent and I would have no qualms , water leaks or not in buying another.

After all 3 year 100k warranty is a good fall back


----------



## carolgavin

Evening all, this will be my last post on this thread as we are entering a crucial phase where best not to discuss openly on a forum. Just want to wish all of you the best of luck with your vans and I will be keeping up with developments. I will of course be happy to answer any questions etc via PM. 
Wish me luck!!!!! Think am gonna need it!!!!


PS Reeventu thanks for that sorry work was not done. Could you add your details to spreadsheet thread if not already done link in my signature


----------



## christopherobin

Carol

I'm sure everyone will join me in wishing you "all the luck in the world"
with your van.


Best wishes

Chris


----------



## fac

*scuttle leak repaired today*

van went in to Adams morey van centre at southampton to day and the scuttle was removed resealed and refitted sealent applied under the scuttle and the glass rubber , engine cleaned and treated although i had no rust, and a engine cover was fitted ,plus all the other recalls done ,a very efficient garage who knew about the problems with the leaks and seemed to be able to carry out the work ok. did notice on the drive home the engine seemed more quiet presume the cover made the difference,once home refitted my drainage tubes to either end of the scuttle and now ready for a wet summer
andy


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

*Peugot water ingress. Rotherham Area*

*Found this somewhere else*

We recently concacted out local Peugeot dealer, *Matthewmans of Rotherham*, with the problem of water getting into the engine from the windscreen.

They were great, said they had had one or two booked in recently and offered to do the work completely FOC.

They even took us home and collected us when the work was completed. First class service and an excellent job.


----------



## MikeH

*Fiat/Peugeot Water Ingress*

Hi. 
Seems to have gone very quiet for the last 9 days, Has everyone else had their vans fixed?
I been waiting for the spares to arrive, and now they have, and it's going in on Tues. Will let you know how it goes, when I get it back.
Mike H.


----------



## Autoquest

Still waiting for the engine cover which was ordered in November - I think there was only one ever made which Carol got.


----------



## 96299

*Re: Fiat/Peugeot Water Ingress*



MikeH said:


> Hi.
> Seems to have gone very quiet for the last 9 days, Has everyone else had their vans fixed?
> I been waiting for the spares to arrive, and now they have, and it's going in on Tues. Will let you know how it goes, when I get it back.
> Mike H.


Hi

Yes all the things that needed doing on my van have now been done,including the 3ltr cover.All I have to do now is take it in on wednesday for the cab aircon to be fixed.

steve


----------



## Telbell

Andy Stothert (www.outandaboutlive.co.uk) is still desperate for X250 owners to reverse up a 1 in 5 incline and experience judder-any takers?


----------



## GerryD

I regularly reverse up inclines and heve never experienced any clutch judder. The way to do it is never use any throttle.


----------



## Telbell

Interesting Gerry-I don't know if you've followed the threads but the point seems to be that it isn';t possible to reverse up such an incline without using a fair amount of throttle and clutch, leading to clutch burn out.

It seems to be a big issue on O and A but hardly mentioned on MHF?


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

Telbell said:


> Andy Stothert (www.outandaboutlive.co.uk) is still desperate for X250 owners to reverse up a 1 in 5 incline and experience judder-any takers?


We offered for him to come to us and we have slopes on our site and all our fitters and valeters who regularly move MH's would demonstrate.

Ask Cabby about our 'inclines' !!

Peter


----------



## fatbast

hate to say it, but are'nt these fiats just a teensy bit crap? i've got two panel vans (master and sprinter) but we would'nt dream of buying a fiat for work. had one before, albeit the older model, and it fell to bits. in the real world the fiat ducato would be close to bottom of the list for fleet managers buying vans. maybe fiat do great deals for m/home manufacturers or something....just a thought. sorry in advance. :roll:


----------



## Telbell

> We offered for him to come to us and we have slopes on our site and all our fitters and valeters who regularly move MH's would demonstrate.
> 
> Ask Cabby about our 'inclines' !!


Yes, saw that Peter! A.S. does seem to be on something of a crusadfe about this particular issue. I assume you imply that cabby had no problem reversing with his Fleurette which would be good news for me as I await mine :lol:


----------



## Grizzly

fatbast said:


> hate to say it, but are'nt these fiats just a teensy bit crap? i've got two panel vans (master and sprinter) but we would'nt dream of buying a fiat for work. had one before, albeit the older model, and it fell to bits. in the real world the fiat ducato would be close to bottom of the list for fleet managers buying vans. maybe fiat do great deals for m/home manufacturers or something....just a thought. sorry in advance. :roll:


As I understand it the X250 Camper chassis is built specifically for motorhomes and is not the same as that built for commercial vans.

All I can say is that, windscreen scuttle leak apart, ours is a delight to drive and poles apart from the Peugeots ( both new) that we owned before. The windscreen leak, thanks to a strip of gaffer tape, is no longer a problem and we have every expectation that it will be sorted permanently before we come to sell the van.

G


----------



## Buzzer

Hi all, wasn't sure if this was the right place to post this so apologies to Mods if it wasn't.
These are the latest four problems/recalls for the new Ducato X/250 as quoted in this months Caravan Club Magazine.

Water ingress may cause the windscreen wiper motor to fail on 3256 vehicles- a protective cover will be fitted-chassis numbers ZFA25000001000000 to ZFA25000001114798.

If the steering is becoming increasingly stiff, it could be due to lack of lubricant during assembly- 5430 vehicles involved, from chassis ZFA25000001000000 to ZFA25000001173859.

A small batch of faulty brake hoses could cause brake failure on 327 Ducatos from ZFA25000001313880 to ZFA25000001335641.

Finally, tyer valves may break on 368 Ducatos from ZFA25000001268314 to ZFA25000001292389

Hope this helps  

Len


----------



## geraldandannie

Hi Len

Thanks. We have a 'latest info' post :: here :: which I try to keep updated.

Unfortunately, printed publications are always some weeks (at least) behind, due to production lead times.

Gerald


----------



## GerryD

Telbell said:


> Interesting Gerry-I don't know if you've followed the threads but the point seems to be that it isn';t possible to reverse up such an incline without using a fair amount of throttle and clutch, leading to clutch burn out.
> 
> It seems to be a big issue on O and A but hardly mentioned on MHF?


Telbell,
I am perfectly aware of the threads and the postings about clutch judder. I will repeat, I do not have any evidence of clutch judder. 
Johns Cross have agreed with me that the trick is to fully engage the clutch without any throttle. The engine will take it and if it does need that little bit of throttle only apply it just at the final bite point. 
I park on a 1in 7 and have to mount a steep ramp to park at home. I never use any throttle.
I learnt very quickly when we first got this MH and I stalled it twice by not controlling the clutch and now I never use any throttle until the clutch is engaged. That applies on the road as well as when manouvering.
Regards,
Gerry


----------



## sallytrafic

I don't know if this is a help or not but I first noticed the ability of modern diesels to cope with gradients when going around a highland game park. There were wild animals, deer, bison etc all over the road and I was in first with my foot off the throttle just steering around them. I came to quite a steep rise just as a bison decided to cross in front of me and as the van met the hill it speeded up by itself. Somehow the fuel management system sensed the extra torque required and adjusted the fuel to suit and as a result raising the revs as well perhaps to keep it from the stall.

Neither the bison or van was hurt in this experiment.


----------



## 1happy

*Warranty & recall work !!*

Hi All,
Just a quickie question.
We are currently on wifi in Belgium and due home in a few days.
my question is....
.... Has anyone got a list of work carried out on their vans by their garages RE the recalls/water issues?

I ask because our dealers garage carried out some work in November as we left the UK and promised to post a copy of "work done" to our home...I had my post forwarded at Christmas and had still not got a copy and I am hoping its now arrived???

But just before i get home & go through my post I wondered if anyone else has got this info from their garages,after all it must go towards the service history if nothing else 8O

Many thanks for any help on this one
Catherine


----------



## 1happy

*Warranty & recall work !!*

Hi All,
Just a quickie question.
We are currently on wifi in Belgium and due home in a few days.
my question is....
.... Has anyone got a list of work carried out on their vans by their garages RE the recalls/water issues?

I ask because our dealers garage carried out some work in November as we left the UK and promised to post a copy of "work done" to our home...I had my post forwarded at Christmas and had still not got a copy and I am hoping its now arrived???

But just before i get home & go through my post I wondered if anyone else has got this info from their garages,after all it must go towards the service history if nothing else 8O

Many thanks for any help on this one
Catherine


----------



## GerryD

Came out of Fiat dealer on Saturday. All recalls/service bulletins completed. Engine cover fitted (2.3 130 Multijet), New scuttle fitted. On first presentation to Fiat, the service bulletin (Note: this is not a recall and should never be deemed as one) only gave information about resealing the scuttle. 
On this visit to the Fiat dealer it appears that there is a new procedure, which involves the fitting of a new scuttle. The new scuttle still appears to be a two part affair but is a level trough that is deep enough to prevent any water entering critical parts. The drain is large enough to ensure that, provided the vehicle is parked close to level across the chassis then it would not be possible for water to cause any damage or other concern.


----------



## carolgavin

GerryD said:


> Came out of Fiat dealer on Saturday. All recalls/service bulletins completed. Engine cover fitted (2.3 130 Multijet), New scuttle fitted. On first presentation to Fiat, the service bulletin (Note: this is not a recall and should never be deemed as one) only gave information about resealing the scuttle.
> On this visit to the Fiat dealer it appears that there is a new procedure, which involves the fitting of a new scuttle. The new scuttle still appears to be a two part affair but is a level trough that is deep enough to prevent any water entering critical parts. The drain is large enough to ensure that, provided the vehicle is parked close to level across the chassis then it would not be possible for water to cause any damage or other concern.


Hi Gerry think this is what I got when mine was in.....................


----------



## GerryD

Carol,
Certainly looks as if it will do the job, and anyway with global warming we down here will neven see rain again so who cares.
More important is the very nice looking engine cover. If the water ingress was cosmetic, which in fact it was always more cosmetic than mechanical, then the engine cover makes it all look very pretty.
Regards,
Gerry


----------



## carolgavin

GerryD said:


> Carol,
> Certainly looks as if it will do the job, and anyway with global warming we down here will neven see rain again so who cares.
> More important is the very nice looking engine cover. If the water ingress was cosmetic, which in fact it was always more cosmetic than mechanical, then the engine cover makes it all look very pretty.
> Regards,
> Gerry


hi hon you have pm


----------



## 107476

GerryD said:


> .... but is a level trough that is deep enough to prevent any water entering critical parts. The drain is large enough to ensure that, provided the vehicle is parked close to level across the chassis then it would not be possible for water to cause any damage or other concern.


dont understand, do you mean one trough across the whole way , or is there still the 2 little troughs on each end of the scuttle ??


----------



## GerryD

jackthelad said:


> GerryD said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... but is a level trough that is deep enough to prevent any water entering critical parts. The drain is large enough to ensure that, provided the vehicle is parked close to level across the chassis then it would not be possible for water to cause any damage or other concern.
> 
> 
> 
> dont understand, do you mean one trough across the whole way , or is there still the 2 little troughs on each end of the scuttle ??
Click to expand...

Hi,
There is now one trough the full width of the scuttle but much deeper with a large drain on the drivers side. The trough is very deep and would need a lot of water to overflow onto the now covered engine.


----------



## carolgavin

gerry there are some pics of my new one a few pages back. Could you have a look at it and see if it's the same as you have seen. Mine seems to be more rigid!!

will see if i can find page then will post it here to ave you looking all the way back!!



Page 72 of this thread


----------



## 107476

GERRY,

thanks for that..

had a quick look at my new van on Friday, hasnt been PDIed yet and I think there was still the little troughs both sides of the big one in the middle........ F**K


----------



## GerryD

carolgavin said:


> gerry there are some pics of my new one a few pages back. Could you have a look at it and see if it's the same as you have seen. Mine seems to be more rigid!!
> 
> will see if i can find page then will post it here to ave you looking all the way back!!
> 
> Page 72 of this thread


Carol,
Difficult to tell, but can confirm that the new scuttle is the same depth all the way across and looks more efficient. No lumps or bumps to prevent water passing to the drain.
Regards,
Gerry


----------



## carolgavin

*Gave VOSA a call today!*

Gave VOSA a call today to ask what the planned recall would entail. It is mostly the same as the Fiat one but I *think* he said it would involve a whole new scuttle with a different drain hole to help with getting rid of the water. Now I am NOT repeat NOT certain he said a new scuttle as he was rhyming everything off quite quickly so this may be wrong!!!! Perhaps someone else could call them and ask??? Also the old lubricating the steering rack!! A cover for the windscreen wiper motor, a cover for the ABS(??? dunno if this is an actual thing but thats what it sounded like!!) and an engine cover.
I took the opportunity to ask about juddergate and his response was no one can argue that there *IS* a problem with reversing these vans and they are waiting to take it further!!! He e-mailed me a form to fill in with regards to this. It can be filled in and sent back via e-mail so if anyone wants one just PM me and I will send it to you.

Mods I hope you don't mind but am gonna post this on the VOSA uphold complaint thread as well. If not ok please delete I will not be offended I know there is a rule on duplicating posts.


----------



## 109481

*NEw 2008 Ducato/Rapido*

I have just had my first look at my new Rapido 7065+ on a 130 Ducato platform
There is now a cover over the head but I did notice that water was collecting in the centre of the drip tray channel running across underneath the front scuttle
The centre of this channel was lower than either of the end drain tubes so no way could the water drain away
I also noted that the 2008 cab differs from the 2007 cab insomuch that there is no adjustment on the rake of the steering column but now there is an adjustment on the length of the column, i.e. you can push it in or pull it out
Also the swivel seats only lock in the forward facing direction, otherwise they are free to rotate 360 degrees (if there is nothing to black this happening
But otherwise it is the same but it looks if it has a cheaper finish (not so much chrome)
Skimbo


----------



## 1happy

*Hi All*

Hi All.
I've just got back from my travels and have not had chance to check through all the thread/s but just wondered if.........anyone got a list/letter showing work carried out on their vans by their garages RE the recalls/water issues?

I ask because our dealers garage carried out some work in November as we left the UK and promised to post a copy of "work done" to our home...I had my post forwarded at Christmas and had still *not* got a copy.
I asked the dealer to chase this up at the beginning of Janaury & having arrived home today i* still don't have a copy*

I wondered if anyone else has got this info from their garages :?: 
after all it must go towards the service history if nothing else :?:

Many thanks for any help on this one 
Catherine


----------



## carolgavin

Hi Catherine there is an updated post that geraldannie posted will find it for you hang on a mo!!!

Glad to see!! you again petal

HERE IT IS


----------



## GerryD

*Re: Hi All*



1happy said:


> Hi All.
> I've just got back from my travels and have not had chance to check through all the thread/s but just wondered if.........anyone got a list/letter showing work carried out on their vans by their garages RE the recalls/water issues?
> 
> I ask because our dealers garage carried out some work in November as we left the UK and promised to post a copy of "work done" to our home...I had my post forwarded at Christmas and had still *not* got a copy.
> I asked the dealer to chase this up at the beginning of Janaury & having arrived home today i* still don't have a copy*
> 
> I wondered if anyone else has got this info from their garages :?:
> after all it must go towards the service history if nothing else :?:
> 
> Many thanks for any help on this one
> Catherine


Catherine,
The one difference now is that when my MH went into the Fiat dealer in December the only work on the engine was the chemical treatment to remove and seal the oxidation.
Since then I enquired about the engine cover and they ordered that for me. When I booked the NH in to have the engine cover fitted they told me that they were going to do some more work and would need the MH for a full day. Turns out that the extra work is the new design scuttle.
New scuttle is still two piece but has a very clean looking seal The water trough is much deeper and the same depth throughout and the very large drain pipe is on the drivers side.
Hope this helps,
Gerry


----------



## geraldandannie

*Re: Hi All*



GerryD said:


> New scuttle is still two piece but has a very clean looking seal The water trough is much deeper and the same depth throughout and the very large drain pipe is on the drivers side.


Hi Gerry

Does the new scuttle look completely factory-made? The drain hole look moulded or drilled?

I was just trying to get a handle on whether the complete scuttle installation has been a Fiat factory-designed job, or whether your dealer has done mods.

Thinking about it, the (Fiat) dealer is unlikely to make their own changes to factory designs.

Gerald


----------



## GerryD

Gerald,
This is a full factory produced scuttle, not a modification of the old one. As I said the trough has been redesigned as has the drain. It would not be possible to produce the scuttle without the proper vacuum moulds.
Regards,
Gerry


----------



## teemyob

*Faulty Fiats*

Hello all,

Not having needed to or had time to follow these threads regarding the Fiart chassis, please excuse me if I am suggesting something that has already mentioned. Anywhere here goes.....

Have you not so merry Fiat owners considered a mass convoy or convoys along motorways protesting about your faulty purchases.

As an example, could 500 or so of you not arrange to meet on the M25 one weekend, drive around with banners listing your problems. A call to TV station might even get you National coverage. At the same time, Midlanders could tour the M6, the Northerners the M60, Yorkshire, NE and Lincs the M1?

Just a thought!

Trev.


----------



## GerryD

*Re: Faulty Fiats*



teemyob said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Not having needed to or had time to follow these threads regarding the Fiart chassis, please excuse me if I am suggesting something that has already mentioned. Anywhere here goes.....
> 
> Have you not so merry Fiat owners considered a mass convoy or convoys along motorways protesting about your faulty purchases.
> 
> As an example, could 500 or so of you not arrange to meet on the M25 one weekend, drive around with banners listing your problems. A call to TV station might even get you National coverage. At the same time, Midlanders could tour the M6, the Northerners the M60, Yorkshire, NE and Lincs the M1?
> 
> Just a thought!
> 
> Trev.


IMO, this is a crackpot idea that could never work.
No need now as Fiat owners are getting their scuttles sorted and very soon the same will be happening at Peugeot.


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: Faulty Fiats*



teemyob said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Not having needed to or had time to follow these threads regarding the Fiart chassis, please excuse me if I am suggesting something that has already mentioned. Anywhere here goes.....
> 
> Have you not so merry Fiat owners considered a mass convoy or convoys along motorways protesting about your faulty purchases.
> 
> As an example, could 500 or so of you not arrange to meet on the M25 one weekend, drive around with banners listing your problems. A call to TV station might even get you National coverage. At the same time, Midlanders could tour the M6, the Northerners the M60, Yorkshire, NE and Lincs the M1?
> 
> Just a thought!
> 
> Trev.


Can you imagine it.......would be so funny but logistically difficult. Would certainly get peoples attention specially if we tried to go in reverse :lol: :lol:


----------



## teemyob

*Re: Faulty Fiats*



GerryD said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Not having needed to or had time to follow these threads regarding the Fiart chassis, please excuse me if I am suggesting something that has already mentioned. Anywhere here goes.....
> 
> Have you not so merry Fiat owners considered a mass convoy or convoys along motorways protesting about your faulty purchases.
> 
> As an example, could 500 or so of you not arrange to meet on the M25 one weekend, drive around with banners listing your problems. A call to TV station might even get you National coverage. At the same time, Midlanders could tour the M6, the Northerners the M60, Yorkshire, NE and Lincs the M1?
> 
> Just a thought!
> 
> Trev.
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, this is a crackpot idea that could never work.
> No need now as Fiat owners are getting their scuttles sorted and very soon the same will be happening at Peugeot.
Click to expand...

Why is it a Crackpot Idea?
Why would it never work?
Have they? Are you Sure? Positive?

Trev.


----------



## GerryD

*Re: Faulty Fiats*



teemyob said:


> GerryD said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Not having needed to or had time to follow these threads regarding the Fiart chassis, please excuse me if I am suggesting something that has already mentioned. Anywhere here goes.....
> 
> Have you not so merry Fiat owners considered a mass convoy or convoys along motorways protesting about your faulty purchases.
> 
> As an example, could 500 or so of you not arrange to meet on the M25 one weekend, drive around with banners listing your problems. A call to TV station might even get you National coverage. At the same time, Midlanders could tour the M6, the Northerners the M60, Yorkshire, NE and Lincs the M1?
> 
> Just a thought!
> 
> Trev.
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, this is a crackpot idea that could never work.
> No need now as Fiat owners are getting their scuttles sorted and very soon the same will be happening at Peugeot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why is it a Crackpot Idea?
> Why would it never work?
> Have they? Are you Sure? Positive?
> 
> Trev.
Click to expand...

Why is it a crackpot idea? - It would never get support, it was difficult enough to get people to complain to the clubs. Look at the last proposed Fuel protest, that had no support and fuel affects everyone. This affects such a small number of the population that it would never get off the ground.
Have they? Are you sure? Positive? - Yes, as you say, you have not read the forum. I suggest that you do so. You will find that owners are getting fixes. The situation is changing and there is now evidence that new scuttles are being fitted. VOSA will shortly issue a service bulletin for Peugeot. Fiat dealers are responding and mostly are getting good reports on here. It will take a while, but the evidence is encouraging.
There certainly does not seem any point in creating more bad feeling whilst matters are progressing.


----------



## rowley

That is really good news about the scuttle. I have been waiting for something definite before I would commit my motorhome to the Fiat agent. (mastic and duct tape at the moment) I still have not received a recall notice although Fiat Customer Service told me of several "campaign numbers" that needed to be done. A friend works at Sherwood Iveco near Alfreton and he said that they had been doing Fiat X250 recalls. Has anyone got any experience of this company?


----------



## zulurita

If your motorhome dealer/Fiat have already done the so called fix will they still let you have the new re-designed scuttle?


----------



## GerryD

zulurita said:


> If your motorhome dealer/Fiat have already done the so called fix will they still let you have the new re-designed scuttle?


Rita,
I had the fix in December and the new scuttle last week. I get the feeling that Fiat have had a rethink as I didn't prompt the dealer for the new scuttle. He did it automatically as it was going back in for the engine cover.
Gerry


----------



## rrusty

Hi Gerryd, Does that mean Fiat also sealed the rubber water deflector at the bottom of the windscreen also are you completely leak free ?


----------



## zulurita

Thanks gerry for the info.


----------



## GerryD

rrusty said:


> Hi Gerryd, Does that mean Fiat also sealed the rubber water deflector at the bottom of the windscreen also are you completely leak free ?


RRusty,
I haven't had a chance to look since I picked the van up and we haven't had any rain to talk about anyway.
All I can say is that it looks like a good job, but then if you read back through this tread I wasn't over worried about it anyway. I believe that with the covers and the scuttle rework that Fiat have supplied this vehicle is as good as any other.
No vehicle can ever be watertight and provided the sensitive electrical circuits are protected then that works for me. Anything under the bonnet is designed to get wet as it is guaranteed to get damp overnight.


----------



## MikeH

Hi,
There is now one trough the full width of the scuttle but much deeper with a large drain on the drivers side. The trough is very deep and would need a lot of water to overflow onto the now covered engine.[/quote]
Gerry.
Had mine part fixed at Stormont last week. They could only fit the n/s part of the scuttle, due to the o/s part being damaged. Looking at it, there is no difference between old and new, identical to old one, small hole on outer recess has been drilled out, so the water drains through quicker, centre join matches up to old side. Waiting for a call, when new part arrives.
Mike H.


----------



## 107925

I had the new scuttle fitted simply because the van I was buying from a dealer was sent to the local Fiat agent for a short service, plus the various recalls. Fiat fitted the new scuttle as part of that program.

In the last 3 weeks since I got the van, there hasn't been much rain. When there has, I've opened the bonnet and there has been a bit of water on the engine cover, so the fix isn't totally waterproof. However, it's nothing to complain about, so I'm happy enough, so far.

I see that the large drain hole to the left of the scuttle is fitted with a wide-bore hose which drains down past the left of the engine and out through the left inner wing. Presumably, Fiat must have drilled that hole for the hose and hopefully given it some rust protection. It does look quite a pro job.

Shaun


----------



## GerryD

Shark said:


> I had the new scuttle fitted simply because the van I was buying from a dealer was sent to the local Fiat agent for a short service, plus the various recalls. Fiat fitted the new scuttle as part of that program.
> 
> In the last 3 weeks since I got the van, there hasn't been much rain. When there has, I've opened the bonnet and there has been a bit of water on the engine cover, so the fix isn't totally waterproof. However, it's nothing to complain about, so I'm happy enough, so far.
> 
> I see that the large drain hole to the left of the scuttle is fitted with a wide-bore hose which drains down past the left of the engine and out through the left inner wing. Presumably, Fiat must have drilled that hole for the hose and hopefully given it some rust protection. It does look quite a pro job.
> Exactly as I have found. I have posted some photos on e new thread.
> Gerry
> 
> Shaun


----------



## 109822

Would you or anybody have a FIAT part number for the new scuttle.
It appears some FIAT service centres are hiding behind the fact that they do not know the part number to order, therefore unable to correct fault.

Thanks in advance


----------



## wenlock

I contacted Fiat customer service last Friday by E mail asking for details of this new scuttle, this was after being informed by VOSA that a new scuttle was available. 
No reply as yet .

Paul


----------



## GerryD

benimar said:


> Would you or anybody have a FIAT part number for the new scuttle.
> It appears some FIAT service centres are hiding behind the fact that they do not know the part number to order, therefore unable to correct fault.
> 
> Thanks in advance


Sorry, like everyone else, as it is warranty work you do not get to see any paperwork. But my dealer ordered automatically so it must be on a service bulletin. Can't understand why your dealer is being awkward, it doesn't cost him.
Regards,
Gerry


----------



## 108370

Just received vthe following from the helpful Mr Jenkins , maybe ofd assistance to the Citroen branded vX250 owners.

Good Morning Mr Reeve,

Further to your recent communication with the VOSA Enquiry Unit.

Our information is that Citroen, provided that your vehicle's chassis
number falls within the affected range, will address your concerns in
respect of the above.

We are further informed that Citroen will be making contact with the
respective keepers shortly.

I trust that the above is of assistance.

Sincerely

S L Jenkins
Senior Engineer (Defect Investigation)


----------



## wenlock

Fiat customer services rang me last week, following my E mail enquiry to them, as a result my van is booked in to Oldham Motors (Fiat) who used to be Caledonian now in liquidation. They are a commercial vehicle dealer and so my hopes are up for two main things.
1) permanent Fiat fix for scuttle with new modified scuttle even though I have carried out my own mod it would be nice of Fiat have done something about it. 
2) Attention to juddering problem when reversing. I am not happy with Fiat's solution ie, engage reverse, rev up to 1300 and let the clutch out.
The van ticks over at about 800 rpm and when reversing at tickover I would have a job running alongside it. Revering up my gently sloping drive requires low speed and careful steering adjustments, no way possible at 1300 rpm. 

Oldham Motors reckon that there is no modified scuttle available. They will check this out prior to my appointment on 1st April, ominous date !!

Has anyone out there got definite proof that a new scuttle is available, please come on and give full info.

Paul


----------



## geraldandannie

wenlock said:


> Has anyone out there got definite proof that a new scuttle is available, please come on and give full info.


There's photos of GerryD's scuttle  here :: click ::

If Oldham Motors are primarily commercial, they may not have heard of the scuttle change, which will probably only be done to those with motorhomes (and who ask for it).

You might try getting in touch with Fiat again, and ask them to inform the garage.

Gerald


----------



## Pixelpusher

I took my FIAT based E410 to Stormont Van and Truck last week to have the recall work done. This included the work on the scuttle. I wasn't aware of any new scuttle design and to be honest I've never had a problem with the one I had.

They did all the recall work very well and did seal up the joint in the middle of the scuttle as well as fitting the Engine cover I'd asked for.

This weekend we sat in over 24hours of rain at Tewksbury Abbey with not a drop of water getting into the Engine bay. Mind you we'd had similar conditions before the mods and not had any water getting in.

The Engine cover does look a little different to some that I've seen here. Maybe it's because I have the 2.2l version. So shots are attached.

Colin


----------



## wenlock

Gerald
More of the story :-
I was obliged to contact Fiat Cust service because my more local and convenient Fiat dealer has moved premises and can no longer fit my panel van conversion in his workshop.He is just a car dealership and the warranty jobs that he did for me were, he admitted, first ones for him.

Fiat 's cust. serv. rep. set about finding me a dealer within a reasonable distance who had the appropriate facilities, this turns out to be Oldham who are,I think ,about 25 miles away. No big deal.
He did say that I was far better going to a dealer who sold and serviced commercial Fiats such Ducato vans, which mine is, than to a dealer who usually deals with cars only.
I would have thought opposite to what you say, if he is used to fixing and doing warranty work on X2/50 vans then surely his knowledge will be better than a non commercial dealer. 
Paul


----------



## 1happy

*Will Andy get the elusive results?*

Hi.
Hope this is allowed but just came across Andy Stotherts latest posting on O&A 
HERE>>
http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10368&start=361&posts=362

I know a lot of people don't like links so I have taken the liberty of copy & pasting (Bold & underlined entire post)
Quote:-
.....................................................................................................

*The campaign to get Fiat to take even the slightest bit of notice of its frustrated customers has stepped up a gear or two (with just a little light juddering) within the last few days with Dave Newell plugging the problem in Practical Motorhome, 'Gentleman Jack' (I don't think I'm allowed to divulge his true idenitity) giving it space in 'Motor Caravanner', which is 'out soon', and a letter from myself appearing in MMM. 
What we're up against is more organised than I thought. It seems that folk have been complaining to their local Fiat garage about the juddering, and a few about that thumping underneath when the engine fires first on start-up, but it's looking like the garages have been briefed on how to fob everybody off without it becoming an official complaint. 
And after all if the dealer tells you its nothing to worry about, and you don't know any different, well why go looking for problems? 
I've had two emails today from owners who have been politely treated to a very slick brush off, and as they have no experience of the oily bits, no idea that the judder can get as bad as it does on steep gradients, nor that this can ruin clutches and gearboxes, thay have gone away thinking that Fiat know best. 
The truth seems to be that once they have our money they aren't bothered about looking after the customer. 
And this also applies to the major motorhome manufacturers - they are now well aware of this issue and continue to sell a product which they know to be, at best, flawed. 
It's a month since our van went in for Fiat to 'test' again, and they are still refusing to say what conclusions they have arrived at. I've asked them to tell me whether they think it is defective, or not. Yes or no? And they won't. 
The fact is that if they admit a single one is defective they admit that they all are. Every single Ducato, Boxer, and Relay which has come out of that factory, and are still coming out, will be by their own admission, defective. That's what happens when you call a defect a 'characteristic' of the vehicle. 
I'm not sure we'll get anywhere with this in the end, when you consider the consequences for Fiat (et al) if we do, but we aren't going to give in quietly to corporate corruption, and big business bullying.

So if you still don't believe that big business can be so corrupt and that your 2007 onwards Ducato or Boxer camper/motorhome is not at risk of ruining its gearbox or clutch whilst reversing up a steep hill, well what have you got to lose from trying it? 
When you have, email me with the result. If it doesn't judder we can get Fiat to tell us why it hasn't got the normal characteristics of the vehicle. 
But enough rambling, even though it's too early for the Scotch (Talisker tonight), and little *** Ash hasn' yet returned from the football.

e-mail address removed by mods for security purposes (/b]**
.........................................................................................................

Now I know this whole "issue" has its critics  
But there is an awful lot of logic in the above post & I for one think its time "customer care" did care & not put profits before people!! :evil: 
C*


----------



## geraldandannie

wenlock said:


> I would have thought opposite to what you say, if he is used to fixing and doing warranty work on X2/50 vans then surely his knowledge will be better than a non commercial dealer.


Hi Paul

That's what I meant (although not really what I said  ).

Gerald


----------



## Telbell

That's interesting Catherine - Andy seems to have changed his approach somewhat. From only asking people who suffer a "judder" he's now asking for all results


> When you have, email me with the result. If it doesn't judder we can get Fiat to tell us why it hasn't got the normal characteristics of the vehicle.


and the last part of his plea makes some sense. I still can't see where he's published results of his campaign though- I think he'll need a lot more numbers to convince anyone of importance to take notice.


----------



## 1happy

*Judder*

Hi Telbell  
Your last paragraph is sadly true 



Telbell said:


> I think he'll need a lot more numbers to convince anyone of importance to take notice.


That appears to be the repeated theme of *"the story of the triplets"* :roll: 
All I can say is better to have tried and failed  
than to have never tried at all :lol: 
C


----------



## bognormike

Ihappy - just a note, 
no problem with the out & about links  . But i've taken out Andy Stothert's e-mail address, it's an invitation for spammers to pick it up & bombard him with ads for viagra & other dubious things which may disctract his attention from the task in hand (!) . Anybody needing it should refer to O&A.


----------



## 1happy

Hi bognormike 8) 
Many thanks, I just copied & pasted the whole thing & never even thought about spam  
I am sure the last thing he needs is "distractions"  
Cheers 
Catherine


----------



## 108370

i have had a letter today from Ciroen Uk saying that there will be a recall for the Relay version of the X250 


Karen Pudsey is the person at Citroen 0844 4633500


----------



## 93763

We have the opportunity to buy a new Peugeot Boxer motorhome. I am checking that it does not have the first version of the scuttle, and that it does not, at present, have any leak problems. However, I understand that even the new scuttle is not 100% reliable, and it makes sense to have the engine cover fitted. 

If we take delivery of it without the engine cover, how easy is it now to persuade Peugeot to fit one? 

Are Fiat now fitting them routinely as part of a recall? 

I know the answers are probably buried in the 83 pages of this thread, but if anyone can summarise the current position, that would be welcome. 

Thanks.


----------



## geraldandannie

jonp said:


> I know the answers are probably buried in the 83 pages of this thread, but if anyone can summarise the current position, that would be welcome.


There is a more-or-less up to date statement :: here ::

It doesn't really cover the Pugs, because at the time there was nothing happening on the Peugeot front.

You need to speak to your motorhome dealer, and make sure they're aware of the recalls and campaign mods.

Gerald


----------



## carolgavin

jonp said:


> We have the opportunity to buy a new Peugeot Boxer motorhome. I am checking that it does not have the first version of the scuttle, and that it does not, at present, have any leak problems. However, I understand that even the new scuttle is not 100% reliable, and it makes sense to have the engine cover fitted.
> 
> If we take delivery of it without the engine cover, how easy is it now to persuade Peugeot to fit one?
> 
> Are Fiat now fitting them routinely as part of a recall?
> 
> I know the answers are probably buried in the 83 pages of this thread, but if anyone can summarise the current position, that would be welcome.
> 
> Thanks.


I personally would not take delivery unless it has engine cover etc etc in place. They do exist for the Peugeot I know as I have one.
VOSA told me when I phoned that the recall includes, engine cover, abs cover, starter motor cover, wndscreen wiper cover, lube steering rack (replace if faulty) and new drain hose. If none of this is done do not take van. It is incredibly hard to get Peugeot to deal with this as I have found out over the past 8 months!!!
Finally a small word of caution, despite my van being badly affected by water ingress my vehicle does *NOT* show up on Peugeots database as being affected. Go figure that one out!!!!!!! Despite this Peugeot customer care have authorised the recall work be done, van goes in soon for this.
Details of recall are

Recall Details 
Concern : STEERING MAY BECOME STIFF 
Description : It has been identified that, a problem may arise with the steering mechanism which can result in hardness whilst manoeuvring. 
Remedial Action : Recalled vehicles will have the steering mechanism checked and lubricated. The mechanism will be replaced if found to be damaged. At the same time certain vehicles will have key components reinforced against the ingress of water. Thus preventing operating faults in the long term


----------



## johnc

*Extract from WHAT VAN re Clutch Judder*

Quote from What Van

Ducato-based motorhomes seem to be particularly afflicted by the problem. Like Citroën's Relay, Peugeot's Boxer is almost identical to Ducato so far as its basic design is concern and a spokesman suggests that the supposed fault is more likely to be clutch than gearbox related.

"It's not something that's been raised with us recently, but it's something we've seen in the past and it usually turns out to be clutch judder, possibly caused by a worn plate," he says. "It's something that can particularly afflict chassis cabs that have had *large, badly-specified, bodies mounted on them that turn out to be heavier than the clutch can cope with once they are fully laden."*


----------



## rowley

The What Van article also mentions that the problem does not seem to effect Citroen Relays, we know different. And the bit about badly specified bodies is rubbish as there are many people with Panel Van Conversions that have the problem.


----------



## johnc

*Clutch Judder. It's happening "Down under" as well*

Quote for OZ Caravan RV regarding a Fiat based Motorhome

_Although the Conquest 20 accelerated well and had a ratio for every occasion, we felt the gearing was a tad on the tall side, giving 2300rpm cruising capability at 110km/h, but at the cost of low engine speed flexibility._ *There was slight clutch 'judder' at lift-off and noticeable vibration when reversing.*


----------



## 109822

*Fiat Judder*




Just received a letter from MotorCaravan magazine in reply to my letter enlisting support for the problem of JUDDER.

The magazine phoned FIAT(I presume UK) they were informed that TURIN knows of the issue and is working on it, whatever that means.
It could be a small move forward, at least(indirectly) Fiat have acknowledged there is a problem.


----------



## Telbell

Thanks Benimar- I believe ther'll be an article in the MMM in June edition following A.S's efforts.

Thanks Johnc


----------



## 109822

Just received following letter from George Hinton Deputy Editor at "The Caravan Club" dated 31st March.

"We were made aware of the problems owners were having with the X250 gearbox last Autume and immediately took it up direct with FIAT UK which is well aware.
To be honest,I believe FIAT UK is as frustrated as its UK customers at the slow response this issue has brought from the factory. We have heard one unofficial suggestion that only 6 speed models are effected, and the majority of the factory's output is 5 speed panel vans, therefore the influential fleet users, who would be screaming if they had multiple transmission failures, have had no reason to complain.
Regardless of hearsay, since receiving your letter, we have been back in touch with FIAT UK who called me this morning to say an Italian factory representative is coming to discuss the subject with them on the 2nd April. They have promised to report the outcome to me, so let's all keep our fingers crossed!
If anything further develops we will of course report it in the first available edition of the club magazine.

Yours sincerly
George Hinton, Deputy Editor 
01342 326944


----------



## geraldandannie

Thanks, Benimar, for posting that.

So, Fiat were made aware of the problem last August, and a Fiat representative was meeting them on the 2nd April? That's pretty fast by Fiat standards :evil: :evil: 

Gerald


----------



## wenlock

Hi All,
Took my van into Fiat garage yesterday for clutch judder, starter motor fuse recall and enquiry regarding new replacement scuttle.
On collection I was told that the judder was not a worry and that it can be overcome by reving up to 1300rpm before releasing the clutch, when reversing. I told the garage people that I was not happy with that as that would cause me to go far too fast and I would not be in control when reversing into a tight spot. We have heard this reply before.
I was informed that an engineer from Fiat had been visiting the garage and that he had confirmed that their was nothing wrong with my van, implying that it was pilot error. I will contact Fiat on this topic.
On the scuttle front I will need to book the van in for two days and they will get a specialist firm in to seal my scuttle (with aneasthetic I hope).
Onward and, hopefully, upward. They said that they had enquired with Fiat and no new redesigned scuttle was available.
Paul


----------



## carolgavin

Mine is having the gear box looked at something to do with "the bolts in the diff" 
now I have no clue what this means or the significance but am sure someone does!! If you do could you let me know. Did ask if it was to do with the judder but they were non committal


----------



## CliveMott

*UPDATE from Andy Stothert 04.04.08*

Clive,
Perhaps an update of whats going on with Peugeot and Fiat may be useful:

Presently there are 73 owners who feel sufficiently concerned about the juddering to have contacted me and express their intention to make an official complaint to Fiat and Peugeot. Most, as expected, are owners of the various 6 speed versions of Fiat (130 and 160) and Peugeot (120). Though not all, as we also have several owners of the 100 models who aren't satisfiesd with the juddering. 
From experience driving all of them, and from the feedback of owners it seems that the 6 speed version do judder much more than the 5 speed models, but it is degree of defect rather than lack of it. 
Fiat do in effect admit that they are all juddering in reverse gear up hills, by stating that this is a 'characteristic of the vehicle'. 
Peugeot deny that the problem exists. 
In private Fiat admit that they know this is a serious issue but cannot do anything about it until the parent company in Italy gives them some guidance. Which, besides asking them to fob off the customers in one way or another, has been sadly lacking 
There is now a huge ground-swell of opinion that this indeed a common defect to all the X250 model Fiats, Peugeots and Citroens. 
It is in every owners best interests to go and reverse their vehicle up a steep hill and if they feel that the juddering is unacceptable make an official complaint to Fiat or Peugeot. Or even Citroen if you have that one of those. 
Should a defect arise as a result of this defect (and plenty have already) outside of the warranty period (the clutch for instance is only a maximum of two years) then a record of the defect could save much money and hassle. 
If you want to help bring an end to this potential nightmare for the second hand market and/or hopefully put pressure of Fiat and Peugeot to sort this out then email me
[email protected]


----------



## 1happy

*New Scuttle?*

Hi.
Can anyone tell me, if there's a new scuttle available for the x250 ?
As has been mentioned the thread is rather long & I am reluctant to start new threads on what is a well covered subject  
If there is a new scuttle how does it differ from the "ingress" one :?: 
Thanks in anticipation 8) 
Catherine


----------



## carolgavin

*Re: New Scuttle?*



1happy said:


> Hi.
> Can anyone tell me, if there's a new scuttle available for the x250 ?
> As has been mentioned the thread is rather long & I am reluctant to start new threads on what is a well covered subject
> If there is a new scuttle how does it differ from the "ingress" one :?:
> Thanks in anticipation 8)
> Catherine


Hi Catherine I apparently (!!!!!) have this new scuttle and it looks just the same. Our independent engineer bloke said he thought it was a stiffer construction material. Frankly I am not so sure!!! Looks the same to me apart from maybe two wee grooves at either side which I don't think first one had but as van is not here at the mo cannot look to confirm. There are some pics of my scuttle (new one) somewhere on this thread.


----------



## GerryD

*Re: New Scuttle?*



1happy said:


> Hi.
> Can anyone tell me, if there's a new scuttle available for the x250 ?
> As has been mentioned the thread is rather long & I am reluctant to start new threads on what is a well covered subject
> If there is a new scuttle how does it differ from the "ingress" one :?:
> Thanks in anticipation 8)
> Catherine


Catherine,
I had a new scuttle fitted a few weeks ago, pictures are a few pages back. The new Scuttle has a large 1" drain hole on the drivers side with a positive unbroken deep water channel to the drain. The Scuttle is now so deep that the wiper drives are permanently out of the water. Since fitting, and I had the engine cover at the same time, I have had no water at all on the engine.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Gerry


----------



## 1happy

Hi GerryD.
Most helpful thankyou 8) 
I will have to speak with Fiat garage to see if we can have one of those :idea: 
Thanks again
Regards Catherine


----------



## GerryD

Catherine,
I didn't ask for the new scuttle. I had the water ingress and other recalls done in December but asked the Fiat dealer to try to get an engine cover. There was some delay as we were waiting for another part and as you know I have never been over concerned. Anyway, when the part came in they booked the MH in and told me that they were also going to fit a new Scuttle.
Must say it does look much more substantial than the old one.
Regards,
Gerry


----------



## b6x

Gerry, 

Is it still a two piece one with a join in the middle? I've looked at pictures a few pages back, and mine looks the same. Thick pipe on the driver side and a join in the middle. My van has had recall work done, but all they seemed to do was attempt to (badly) reseal the gaps with arbocol and make a worse job of it than I'd already done. 

I still have water pooling where the drivers side wiper attaches, and the opposite end, just above the headlight. Has these issues been resolved?
i.e. can water flow right across the scuttle and find its way freely to the drainpipe?

Thanks alot.
Steve


----------



## GerryD

b6x said:


> Gerry,
> 
> Is it still a two piece one with a join in the middle? I've looked at pictures a few pages back, and mine looks the same. Thick pipe on the driver side and a join in the middle. My van has had recall work done, but all they seemed to do was attempt to (badly) reseal the gaps with arbocol and make a worse job of it than I'd already done.
> 
> I still have water pooling where the drivers side wiper attaches, and the opposite end, just above the headlight. Has these issues been resolved?
> i.e. can water flow right across the scuttle and find its way freely to the drainpipe?
> 
> Thanks alot.
> Steve


Steve,
Yes it is still a two parter, but the seal seems much neater. The new scuttle also has a much deeper trough, which runs unhindered towards the new very large drain pipe.
Hope this helps,
Gerry


----------



## 38Rover

Hi
When I fixed mine (see my post Sept/Aug on this thread)I fitted 3 new drains one at EACH end of the scuttle in the end wells and one to the fresh air intake.If there is only one pipe what happens when you park with that pipe on the high side water can,t travel uphill.You also need to seal around the headlamps and the plastic trim plates adjacent to the headlamps and stick closed cell foam 5/6mm thick to the short undersides of the bonnet .Since I fixed mine not a drop of water has entered the engine compartment so no need for covers we may get far less rain in Spain but when we do O'BOY
Colin Frier


----------



## viator

After the scuttle fix try this:-
viator


----------



## Spacerunner

Had my X2/50's annual low mileage service yesterday by main dealer.
Also had water ingress problems addressed.
It would seem, according to the dealer, that it is not a recall but a freebie warranty job if, and only if, requested.
They fitted the plastic engine cover, resealed scuttle to bottom of windscreen and installed foam rubber seals to bonnet hinges ( thats a new one on me ).

BTW they told me they charge Fiats official prices for servicing. £269 for low mileage service, which apart from 'check this', 'check that', boiled down to an oil and filter change! Oh, and the official stamp in the service schedule booklet.


----------



## 38Rover

Try Quik Fit next time oil and filter change £25
Colin


----------



## Spacerunner

38Rover said:


> Try Quik Fit next time oil and filter change £25
> Colin


Ah yes. But you don't get that £240's worth of stamp in the service book!


----------



## Polo

*Vehicle Recalls*

Hi all. I can't believe it but this morning an envelope dropped onto the doormat with a thump! It contained a Safety Recall notice for our PEUGEOT BOXER! What has come over Peugeot? Have we all finally got through to their thick heads that they have had to admit that our problems are not 'just cosmetic'. Its for the steering mechanism and for the reinforcement of certain components against water ingress! They can forget the water ingress - we have seen to that ourselves, but they can do the rest. Mind you if it means we are to get an engine cover and other component covers, well they can do that. :twisted: :evil:

The above is very 'tongue in cheek' really as I did know of the recall but didn't really ever expect to hear anything at all.

Vehicle is now booked in on a convenient date for us.


----------



## Pixelpusher

Polo....

With the FIAT dealers you specifically have to request the Cover - it's not automatically done. At least that's what I was told and did.

Colin


----------



## sweetie

We had recalls done in dec to our 3ltr but asked for engine cover this is now going to be fitted on monday. Yesterday went into Desira fiat dealer in norwich and asked if they are also sealing the scuttle as it does not fit properly and they just phoned to the fiat and ordered new scuttle without even looking so hopefully monday all will be fitted and sealed with no more swimming pool in top of engine.

Steve


----------



## steles

Hi
As previously posted in January we had our scuttle "FIXED" although promised new ours was not considered warped enough by the visiting Fiat engineer probably due to the fact that it had been firmly held in place by Duck tape for 5 months prior to Jan. We travelled to Spain at the end of Jan and spent the next 9 weeks subjecting the fix to a mixture of rain and sun,at times 25deg, we now have more leaks than before the fix. The Fiat dealer tell us that there is nothing they can do as the fix was witnessed by the Fiat engineer and approved. Has anybody else experienced failure after the Fix either New scuttle or Old.


----------



## rowley

Spacerunner wrote--Ah yes. But you don't get that £240's worth of stamp in the service book!

So long as it is a VAT registered garage and they use Fiat approved parts their stamp is valid.


----------



## 1happy

*Nothing else the dealer can do??????????????*



steles said:


> Hi
> As previously posted in January we had our scuttle "FIXED" although promised new ours was not considered warped enough by the visiting Fiat engineer probably due to the fact that it had been firmly held in place by Duck tape for 5 months prior to Jan. We travelled to Spain at the end of Jan and spent the next 9 weeks subjecting the fix to a mixture of rain and sun,at times 25deg, we now have more leaks than before the fix. The Fiat dealer tell us that there is nothing they can do as the fix was witnessed by the Fiat engineer and approved. Has anybody else experienced failure after the Fix either New scuttle or Old.


Hi steles.
Sorry for the delay in my reply, been very busy and am playing "catch up"
Am also surprised no one else replied :? 
My question is....because the "Fix" has always been described by Fiat as *"Temporary"* are they truly telling you you are stuck with a warping scuttle :?: 8O 
Regards Catherine


----------



## steles

*Re: Nothing else the dealer can do??????????????*



1happy said:


> steles said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> As previously posted in January we had our scuttle "FIXED" although promised new ours was not considered warped enough by the visiting Fiat engineer probably due to the fact that it had been firmly held in place by Duck tape for 5 months prior to Jan. We travelled to Spain at the end of Jan and spent the next 9 weeks subjecting the fix to a mixture of rain and sun,at times 25deg, we now have more leaks than before the fix. The Fiat dealer tell us that there is nothing they can do as the fix was witnessed by the Fiat engineer and approved. Has anybody else experienced failure after the Fix either New scuttle or Old.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi steles.
> Sorry for the delay in my reply, been very busy and am playing "catch up"
> Am also surprised no one else replied :?
> My question is....because the "Fix" has always been described by Fiat as *"Temporary"* are they truly telling you you are stuck with a warping scuttle :?: 8O
> Regards Catherine
Click to expand...

Hi Catherine
yes, our dealer told us we were "stuck" with it (sorry for pun). suggested if we were unhappy we would have to speak to Fiat direct. they also denied all knowledge of a new-style scuttle. has anyone a part number for the new scuttle, perhaps from a worksheet?
steles


----------



## johnc

*Motorhome Manufacturer solution to water ingrss problem*

Just got back from our leaving our van for a habitation check with a local Motorhome Dealer (not the one I purchased our present van from)

Had a nice chat about all of the problems with the new Fiat and Peugeot vans. I explained that my van was going into Peugeot for a complete water ingress makeover etc. The guy just sighed and showed me a package which had just come in from one of the Motorhome builders as a fix for their vans which were leaking.

The box contained a number of black self adhesive strips about 60" long and short ones about 3". The plan being to stick them onto the windscreen and to join the scuttle in the middle. Believe it or not the photograph showed the strips being fitted to a van with the small one in the middle all creased. Looked wonderful!!!! Taken them a year to get round to the gaffer tape fix as used by many owners.

John C


----------



## 1happy

*Solutions to water ingress problem & no more fixes!!*



> Hi Catherine
> yes, our dealer told us we were "stuck" with it (sorry for pun). suggested if we were unhappy we would have to speak to Fiat direct. they also denied all knowledge of a new-style scuttle. has anyone a part number for the new scuttle, perhaps from a worksheet?
> steles


Hi steles.
The only report I have seen of a "new" scuttle is GerryD's, where he says it a deeper one. 8O 
I have phoned FiART and they told me there are *"no new or re-designed scuttles" *& the "fix" is still only_* "temporary" *_ :evil: 
Make of it what you will, but I would be fuming if I was told what you were told. 8O 
I think trading standards would advise that a failed fix is unacceptable.
But speak to them its all very confusing where consumer law is concerned 

Hi johnc.
Very interesting,
I wonder if the "Peugeot gaffer tape fix" is because its better than the "FiART sealant fix" or because most owners seem to have used it whilst "waiting" :roll: & it therefore is deemed more _acceptable_ 8O 
regards Catherine

PS:-
To all afflicted  
Link in my signature to contribute (or update entry) on "Faults" database


----------



## Autoquest

I have just had my MH back from Peugeot. The gearbox recall apparently involves replacing some pins in the differential. The ECU remap cures an EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) problem which was affecting performance and upping emision levels - I think the power is slightly different now and there is a slight change in engine note/tone plus my cruise will now hold a steady speed on my local 'hill from hell' whereas before, it dropped out.

With regards to the water ingress. I had covers fitted over various parts and the nice new gucci water catcher but NO engine cover and the scuttle was not resealed so the black mastic tape stays in place Rolling Eyes It should be noted though that water will still pour in through the sides of the bonnet and should be sealed with sponge.

Oh.. and they helpfully replaced a catch on the battery access hatch that was flush before and now sticks up proud so you step on it every time you move out of the cab :?


----------



## 93763

Today we finally went to collect our new Peugeot Boxer motorhome. Two hours on the train to get there... and two hours on the train to get back home! 

I won't go into the story of the last five months since we paid our money. This one has had all the covers fitted, and the scuttle does not seem warped in the slightest, but we checked and it leaks through the join. So we refused to accept it. 

It seems to me that some mastic in the join would deal with the problem. Is that too simplistic? But whatever is done to it, I feel it should be done by Peugeot, before I take delivery. That way it remains their problem. 

Is there anything a Peugeot garage can do, on Peugeot advice, to stop water coming through the join? Even a longish-term "temporary" fix would be better than nothing, 

My other worry is: If this has been leaking since manufacture, and I know that the covers have only just been fitted, how do I know how much corrosion there is on the components under the covers? 

Any information/suggestions on either point welcome.


----------



## carolgavin

jonp said:


> Today we finally went to collect our new Peugeot Boxer motorhome. Two hours on the train to get there... and two hours on the train to get back home!
> 
> I won't go into the story of the last five months since we paid our money. This one has had all the covers fitted, and the scuttle does not seem warped in the slightest, but we checked and it leaks through the join. So we refused to accept it.
> 
> It seems to me that some mastic in the join would deal with the problem. Is that too simplistic? But whatever is done to it, I feel it should be done by Peugeot, before I take delivery. That way it remains their problem.
> 
> Is there anything a Peugeot garage can do, on Peugeot advice, to stop water coming through the join? Even a longish-term "temporary" fix would be better than nothing,
> 
> My other worry is: If this has been leaking since manufacture, and I know that the covers have only just been fitted, how do I know how much corrosion there is on the components under the covers?
> 
> Any information/suggestions on either point welcome.


Has your van had all the necessary recall done??? Thinks its YLH! Mine has had it all done and only now leaks from the wee grommit type thing on passenger side but this is being sorted out next week. I started a thread on the recalll work and posted some pics of the latest innovation from Peugeot your van should have had this fitted. Here is link to thread with pics RECALL THREAD

Best of luck.

PS. Water can still get under the engine cover if they do not fix the scuttle. Our injectors are again all rusty because the initial fix was unsuccessful. This also being sorted next week


----------



## 93763

carolgavin said:


> Has your van had all the necessary recall done??? Thinks its YLH! Mine has had it all done and only now leaks from the wee grommit type thing on passenger side


Yes, it has had all the recalls done in the last couple of weeks. But water is dripping steadily from the join at the centre of the scuttle.


----------



## 1happy

*Fed up!*



jonp said:


> Yes, it has had all the recalls done in the last couple of weeks. But water is dripping steadily from the join at the centre of the scuttle.





> My other worry is: If this has been leaking since manufacture, and I know that the covers have only just been fitted, how do I know how much corrosion there is on the components under the covers?
> Any information/suggestions on either point welcome.


Hi jonp.
Thought about this overnight  
My response is many people have traded in and lost thousands to be "done with" the worry. 8O 
Many have spent the last 12/14 months trying to get a "fix" for the shortcomings.  
Others are rejecting & / or litigating & its a legal minefield :evil: 
You went to collect a new van & still no one could be bothered/or capable of getting it satisfactory. :roll: 
So do you really want in to the "gate club" :?: 
If you or anyone knowingly accept "faulty" goods you lose the proverbial "leg to stand on".
Sorry I could have spent more time on a prettier response.  
Finally well done for coming back on the train  
Regards Catherine


----------



## carolgavin

jonp said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has your van had all the necessary recall done??? Thinks its YLH! Mine has had it all done and only now leaks from the wee grommit type thing on passenger side
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it has had all the recalls done in the last couple of weeks. But water is dripping steadily from the join at the centre of the scuttle.
Click to expand...

Does it have one of these?????


----------



## 93763

carolgavin said:


> Does it have one of these?????


Do you mean the shiny bit or the black bit?

The problem is trying to remeber what we saw in the 15 - 30 minutes we were inspecting the engine. I remember the shiny part - the water was dripping on that and then running down onto the engine cover. But I do not remember the the black plastic bit below it. My wife thinks "ours" was just like yours. Any idea what either part does?

By the way, thanks for all the pictures on the other thread. Apart, possibly, from the above, we seem to have all the same parts as you.

Jonathan


----------



## carolgavin

jonp said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does it have one of these?????
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean the shiny bit or the black bit?
> 
> The problem is trying to remeber what we saw in the 15 - 30 minutes we were inspecting the engine. I remember the shiny part - the water was dripping on that and then running down onto the engine cover. But I do not remember the the black plastic bit below it. My wife thinks "ours" was just like yours. Any idea what either part does?
> 
> By the way, thanks for all the pictures on the other thread. Apart, possibly, from the above, we seem to have all the same parts as you.
> 
> Jonathan
Click to expand...

Hi Jonathan the shiny black bit has a drain hose attached to it as part of the recall for water ingress. It is to ensure that if any water does come through the join that it drips into the shiny black thing and is then taken away safely down the back of the engine and out of harms way. 
It seems to work quite well. Up to you what you do obviously but I think what Peugeot et al are hinting at is that they may not be able to stop water getting in but they can divert it from causing any further damage. I would insist in getting one of these before you accept van.

Good luck and please let us know how you get on. By the way as a matter of interest what van is it and who is the dealer?? Sorry if you have mentioned this earlier but haven't noticed it.


----------



## 93763

*Re: Fed up!*



1happy said:


> My response is many people have traded in and lost thousands to be "done with" the worry. 8O
> Many have spent the last 12/14 months trying to get a "fix" for the shortcomings.
> Others are rejecting & / or litigating & its a legal minefield :evil:
> You went to collect a new van & still no one could be bothered/or capable of getting it satisfactory. :roll:
> So do you really want in to the "gate club" :?:
> If you or anyone knowingly accept "faulty" goods you lose the proverbial "leg to stand on".
> Sorry I could have spent more time on a prettier response.
> Finally well done for coming back on the train
> Regards Catherine


Thanks, Catherine, for your considered thoughts.

I agree that, if I was just about to purchase, I would walk away and find a motorhome on a Ford chassis. But that is not where we are. As I said before, I won't go into the details of our to-ing and fro-ing over the last five months (and it must be fifty phone calls to the dealer). Suffice it to say that we paid our money last November, and would probably have to go to court to get it back.

Knowing what I now know, I categorically would not accept a vehicle without an engine cover. I think it is apalling that Peugeot/Fiat after all this tine still have not sorted the scuttle itself. But I am beginning to get the feeling that some duck/duct tape or mastic should be able to stop water coming through the join. If the scuttle is more rigid than the early ones, then that removes some of the problems. And the covers are a backup if the bodge on the scuttle needs renewing.

I get the inpression that Peugeot are begining to get their act together on other leak points on the scuttle. So, if I can if I can get a satisfactory bodge on the centre join (I would prefer it to be a Peugeot bodge), then it might vbe best to give in and start enjoying the van, rather than endure many more months of hassle and probably going to court.

I am posting this to canvass other opinions before making a final decision.

Thanks to all who have posted on the 84(!) pages of this thread and provided the much needed information to support our decision-making on this over the last few months.

Jonathan


----------



## 93763

carolgavin said:


> Hi Jonathan the shiny black bit has a drain hose attached to it as part of the recall for water ingress. It is to ensure that if any water does come through the join that it drips into the shiny black thing and is then taken away safely down the back of the engine and out of harms way.


I am beginning to think that I was right and my wife was wrong (a rare occurrence!). The water was dripping directly from here onto the engine cover. I was told they had done all the recall fixes! If this pipes the water away, that is a definite improvemant. I shall nag about this on Monday.



carolgavin said:


> By the way as a matter of interest what van is it and who is the dealer?? Sorry if you have mentioned this earlier but haven't noticed it.


It is an Orian Zeta ES, i.e an Autosleeper. We were impressed by the flexibilty of the layout; it is under 6m long, a major criterion for us; and it has four seatbelted seats.

Jonathan


----------



## 93763

carolgavin said:


> Hi Jonathan the shiny black bit has a drain hose attached to it as part of the recall for water ingress. It is to ensure that if any water does come through the join that it drips into the shiny black thing and is then taken away safely down the back of the engine and out of harms way.


Carol,

I showed your picture of the black water catcher to my dealer and said "I want one of those". They got on to Peugeot who siad "What's that? Never heard of it. Where did they get it? What's the part number?"

Am I right in thinking yours is a Peugeot, not a Fiat? Either way, I would be grateful if you could tell me the name of the garage, and then the garage here can ask them about it.

After all that has gone on, we should not be surprised at any level of incompetence, but it is frustrating.

Jonathan


----------



## teamsaga

*water ingress*

I have a scuttle with a large drain on the drivers side. I have no other water protection , no engine cover. I could see water coming through the centre join, hardly surprising as its joined by a strip of double sided sticky sponge. I removed this strip and sealed the join with thompsons gutter sealant. seems ok will cross my fingers.


----------



## carolgavin

jonp said:


> carolgavin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jonathan the shiny black bit has a drain hose attached to it as part of the recall for water ingress. It is to ensure that if any water does come through the join that it drips into the shiny black thing and is then taken away safely down the back of the engine and out of harms way.
> 
> 
> 
> Carol,
> 
> I showed your picture of the black water catcher to my dealer and said "I want one of those". They got on to Peugeot who siad "What's that? Never heard of it. Where did they get it? What's the part number?"
> 
> Am I right in thinking yours is a Peugeot, not a Fiat? Either way, I would be grateful if you could tell me the name of the garage, and then the garage here can ask them about it.
> 
> After all that has gone on, we should not be surprised at any level of incompetence, but it is frustrating.
> 
> Jonathan
Click to expand...

Hi Jonathan have sent you a PM but in case you cannot get it. Garage is Robins and Day, Glasgow. Service manager is robert mcmunnigal very nice man. Hope that helps


----------



## 107088

What are you doing on here at this time, have you no life?



hang on, I'm on here typing too, have I no life?


errrrr disregard, error, malfuction,

  8O


----------



## carolgavin

bandaid said:


> What are you doing on here at this time, have you no life?
> 
> hang on, I'm on here typing too, have I no life?
> 
> errrrr disregard, error, malfuction,
> 
> 8O


OOOh mebbes we both have no life????? How sad for us   Nitey nite hon :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## 107088

Sleep tight, dont let the wossnames bite. :wink:


----------



## 107576

Hi 
If anybody is interested i have a brand new 07/08 Peugeot 2.2 HDI engine cover surplus to requirement , I have the invoice it was around £26 + vat just looking to get my purchase price back + postage 
please send message via message system i will email phone number across
Thanks Adrian


----------



## 109822

Hi;

If things don't get resolved on all the outstanding technical issues(as it has lasted over a year, I doubt it will be resolved), later in the year FIAT will be attending the Birmingham show 14-19th October.
I for one will be on their stand, making myself understood.
I would welcome as many other people to do some face to face complaining,(up till now its been mainly letters and phone calls) and get Fiat names as firm points of contact.


----------



## 1happy

*Birmingham NEC !!*



benimar said:


> Hi; If things don't get resolved on all the outstanding technical issues(as it has lasted over a year, I doubt it will be resolved), later in the year FIAT will be attending the Birmingham show 14-19th October.
> I for one will be on their stand, making myself understood.
> I would welcome as many other people to do some face to face complaining,(up till now its been mainly letters and phone calls) and get Fiat names as firm points of contact.


Hi benimar.
I like your thinking 8) 
Similar to this has been suggested before, but _*more than 16 months*_ :evil: have gone by & FiART can't (or won't 8O ) come up with a solution to the "water" issues & look even less likely to come up with one for the "dreaded judder".
So speaking as an owner with *only 2 years warranty ! *I for one would be interested in peaceful protest.
I would also come armed with my meticulous notes of the last YEAR of the fiasco performance by _*FiART customer dis-service*_, who incidently never fail to amaze me & I may even have the makings of a book :lol: (possible title "Mr Gordon Brown, Can we have a _lemon law_ please?") such is the way they have dealt with me & my _Characteristic_ ridden van.
Would love to elaborate but I am currently touring europe & getting some interesting info from other owners (whilst still trying to enjoy  )
So perhaps on my return might start a new thread along the lines suggested and arrange a mass demo????
Keep up the good work....to all concerned members 8) 
Regards C


----------



## 93763

I realise I have been rather quiet. That is partly because we went away for the bank holiday weekend *in the van!*

The Peugeot dealer did manage to find out about the central water catcher, from their other branch who had fitted Carol's. They were prepared to fit it, but could not nmanage to do it at one day's notice. Or, we were assured, they could give the details to a dealer near us who could fit it. With those assuarnces, we were prepared to take delivery of the van.

So, now we are enjoying it - but still need to get it to a dealer to get the water catcher fitted.


----------



## Grizzly

jonp said:


> So, now we are enjoying it - but still need to get it to a dealer to get the water catcher fitted.


Think dual purpose....attach a length of hose to your water catcher and plug the other end into the fresh water tank.

That way ,everytime it rains you fill up your tank and you need never manoeuver around the water taps any more or worry about having the right tap adapter.

Look at it from that point of view and you see that Fiat/Peugeot have done us all a favour.

 

G


----------



## johnc

*Dealers have no option*



jonp said:


> I realise I have been rather quiet. That is partly because we went away for the bank holiday weekend *in the van!*
> 
> The Peugeot dealer did manage to find out about the central water catcher, from their other branch who had fitted Carol's. They were prepared to fit it, but could not nmanage to do it at one day's notice. Or, we were assured, they could give the details to a dealer near us who could fit it. With those assuarnces, we were prepared to take delivery of the van.
> 
> So, now we are enjoying it - but still need to get it to a dealer to get the water catcher fitted.


Glad you are making progress but I cannot reconcile the fact that the dealer was, quote "prepared to fit the water catcher". It is unbelievable that dealers have so little information, it all in the technical bulletins and they should not have an option.

The full fix for the vehicle is as follows.

1 Dismantle injection pipework 
2 Remove injectors, de-rust and reassemble. 
3 Remove all traces of corrosion from cylinder head 
4 De-rust all head steel bolts 
6 De-rust and paint High Pressure pump 
7 Fit engine cover 
8 De-rust engine mounts and paint 
9 Clean corrosion from wiper motor 
10 Fit cover over wiper motor 
11 Fit cover over alternator 
12 Remove old scuttle and replace with new version 
13 Fit new "catcher" under mid section of scuttle 
14 Strip and grease Steering rack 
15 Reprogrammed the Engine management system 
16 Replaced starter motor fuse. 
17 Carry out check on gearbox bolts.

If you have not had all the above done go back and complain.

Regards

JohnC


----------



## duetto96

John

I raised a call with Fiat Customer Care late last week after my van was booked in for the water ingress and 3 recalls. The water ingress on my Tracker is just the same as it went in, a total waste of time. I wanted to get Fiat to confirm that the water ingress work should have made the engine bay watertight before I got back to the garage.

Yesterday, I had a formal response which was that there is no water ingress solution. It is still being 'worked on' and when there is a solution, vehicles will be recalled to retro fit it. No timescale was available. Fiat said the 'temporary fix' doesn't fix the water ingress it just puts the engine cover over the most critical bits and in my experience, hides the rust under the engine cover.

So, this was straight from Fiat customer care. The garage obviously didn't appear to feel obliged to fix the leaky scuttle in the 2 hours it took to do all the work. 

So my question to you is, where did you get that very official looking list of tasks to be performed for water ingress? Does it come with an official Fiat reference number that I can use? 

Fiat told me that individual garages may well do additional stuff to resolve the water ingress problem but it isn't an official fix, just down to the dealership in question. Thats why some people say their problem is fixed and others don't. It seems like its a bit of a post code lottery. 

David


----------



## Telbell

> Yesterday, I had a formal response which was that there is no water ingress solution.


David- Do you have this in writing? If so can you scan the document and put it on here- may be useful for other owners.

If not can you get it in writing?

Seems like Scuttlegate goes on and on :roll:


----------



## duetto96

Telbell, I had actually requested communications via email but it was a phone call. I'll get back to Fiat customer care if someone in the community can provide me with proof that a more comprehensive Fiat (not garage) solution is available than just the engine cover. Without that, I would just be having the same conversation with Fiat that I previously had.


----------



## Grizzly

PM on way

G


----------



## rowley

My replaced scuttle fits well to the screen. I have opened up the drain holes in the end compartments and fitted drain pipes. Have just done another water test and there wasn't any leaks. I have also placed dense foam strip, as someone suggested, along the edges where the bonnet overlaps.


----------



## Telbell

> Telbell, I had actually requested communications via email but it was a phone call.


That's what concerns me a bit David.
Various forums are full of quotes from different people at Fiat who have said different things over the months (same as with the Judder :roll: )

If someone is giving a "Formal" statement that Fiat are now saying "as yet there is no fix" then this should be in writing and it woujld be helpful for other Fiat owners to be aware of this.

Can you keep us informed please?


----------



## johnc

*My van is a Peugeot so differnt list.*



duetto96 said:


> John
> 
> I raised a call with Fiat Customer Care late last week after my van was booked in for the water ingress and 3 recalls. The water ingress on my Tracker is just the same as it went in, a total waste of time. I wanted to get Fiat to confirm that the water ingress work should have made the engine bay watertight before I got back to the garage.
> 
> Yesterday, I had a formal response which was that there is no water ingress solution. It is still being 'worked on' and when there is a solution, vehicles will be recalled to retro fit it. No timescale was available. Fiat said the 'temporary fix' doesn't fix the water ingress it just puts the engine cover over the most critical bits and in my experience, hides the rust under the engine cover.
> 
> So, this was straight from Fiat customer care. The garage obviously didn't appear to feel obliged to fix the leaky scuttle in the 2 hours it took to do all the work.
> 
> So my question to you is, where did you get that very official looking list of tasks to be performed for water ingress? Does it come with an official Fiat reference number that I can use?
> 
> Fiat told me that individual garages may well do additional stuff to resolve the water ingress problem but it isn't an official fix, just down to the dealership in question. Thats why some people say their problem is fixed and others don't. It seems like its a bit of a post code lottery.
> 
> David


My list was all aggreed with the local Peugeot Quality Contriol Manager whom I met at the dealer. All of the items I listed are Peugeot's answer to the problem. If you look at Carol's posting she has had the same level of work carried out at the same garage.

Regards

John


----------



## Telbell

Looks like Peugeot and Fiat don't have the same "Hymn Sheet" :roll:


----------



## carolgavin

There is a lot of 'political wrangling' at Peugeot and Fiat at the mo allegedly!!! 

I have been advised that Peugeot have actually recalled for water ingress in agreement with VOSA. Fiat have not and this is why the responses are so variable.


----------



## vmeldrew

Further to my earlier post about my ongoing saga (first dealer insisted no engine cover available and had not stopped ingress despite 2 attempts at sealing the scuttle) second dealer has eventually fitted cover and did manage to seal but had the van for more than 3 weeks re another matter which still is not completely rectified.

Anyway, during this 3 weeks I pointed out a couple of times that sealing the scuttle is just a temporary fix and was concerned in case the windscreen ever needed replacement after the warranty period, and asked if there is a permanent fix yet. When picking up the van they informed me that they have ordered a new scuttle but it would take some time as it had to come from Italy. Again they didn’t know if this is the permanent fix (sorry for going over the same ground again) but presumed as it was coming from Italy it must be the ‘latest’ scuttle.

Today they phoned to tell me this new scuttle has arrived but still don’t now if it is the permanent fix. My problem is, do I let them replace the scuttle or leave well enough alone? If I let them replace it and it leaks again, or if it is not the permanent fix and one does appear later, how will I stand?

I know some people have had new scuttles fitted, but I can’t remember if these were effective or if they were a permanent fix, and it would be a mammoth task to wade through all the posts. I would be grateful if anyone does know.

Many thanks,

Ray


----------



## 107925

Ray, I never saw my van before the new scuttle was fitted, as it was part of the dealer's pre-sales procedure, whereby all Fiat recalls were done in readiness for my collecting the van. All I can tell you is that the scuttle fits to the windscreen very well and drains the water away properly via a wide-bore hose connected to it. We've had lots of rain in the few months since I've had the van and very little has found its way under the bonnet.

Shaun


----------



## Telbell

> via a wide-bore hose connected to it.


Hi Shaun

Is this wide bore hose at both ends? Reason I ask is that recently a chap showed me his modified scuttle & he had to put an extra hole( 1" ish diam) at the other end as the one wasn't enough-especially when parked up and not on a level.


----------



## Autoquest

Did anyone read in MMM this month; the reader who claimed that MMM was the authority on water ingress... 8O 84 pages and 77000 viewings and 1250 posts - this thread goes from strength to strength.


----------



## 107925

No, Terry, the hose is just on the left side when standing in front of the vehicle. My drive is on a front to back slope, but not left to right, if you see what I mean. In other words, as I'm facing my van it's level across the windscreen. So, the water dispersion down the hose is dependent on the built-in camber of the new scuttle, and in my case this works just fine.

Shaun


----------



## Telbell

Thanks Shaun

Yes- fully understand. This guy's "fix" was also on left but because his drive was a lateral slope (and the "wrong" way!!) he found that water was gathering in the middle-right at the joint-and was dribbling onto the engine despite the cover( :roll: ). Hence he drilled a hoile on t'other side.

Seems like it's matter of good fortune really!


----------



## Telbell

> that MMM was the authority on water ingress...


Haven't read it but who's he kidding?

The only authority they have is on neatly avoiding the issue of Judder for months!


----------



## vmeldrew

Thanks for that Shaun. Mine doesn't appear to have an inbuilt camber so that might be something to look for in the new one.

I also mentioned to the dealer the fact that the large drain hole is on the off side, which is probably designed for LHD vans which would normally park on the right side of the road and benefit from any camber on the road, but I always get the distinct impression they think I am being over fussy. Maybe I am as there hasn't been much rain since I got her back to see if water gets in because of that, but hosing the windscreen hasn't let any in anywhere so it might be ok.


----------



## carolgavin

Hi guys Gerryd and I are going to compare scuttles and engines this weekend as both of us have had new scuttles. We are both at Loch Lomond this weekend so a chance to compare a peugeot to a fiat engine covers and scuttles. Will post any pics and comparisons probably next Tuesday when we are back.


----------



## Telbell

> which is probably designed for LHD vans which would normally park on the right side of the road and benefit from any camber on the road,


Good point vm-never thought of that! :roll:


----------



## vmeldrew

Telbell,

Up there for thinkin', down there for dancin'!


----------



## vmeldrew

Carolgavin, GerrD,

Would be interested to know if there is any noticeable difference between new and old scuttles if you come across anyone who hasn't had a new one to compare with.

I hope to be away from tomorrow for a few days without internet access FYI.

Thanks,

Ray


----------



## MikeH

*Water ingress*

A friend picked up his new x2/50 Fiat last week. It had the engine cover fitted but the scuttle hadn't been sealed and the centre join was gapping. So I told him to ask Fiat to seal it for him. There reply was, that as it had an engine cover fitted they didn't need to seal the scuttle. Anyone else had this response from Fiat?
Mike H.


----------



## Glengyle

I've had the scuttle sealed twice by Fiat garage - failed twice - water still pours into the engine compartment. In France at the moment and the forecast is for rain the next few days so I've resorted to gaffer tape along top and centre of scuttle. Fiat need to come up with a re-design. Must get round to fitting foam to prevent water entering between bonnet and wing as well!!


----------



## 90487

Did anyone else notice this post?
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-45832-.html

Appears if Fiat are doing something to their gearboxes? A supply problem usually means a modification is being phased in 8O


----------



## 1happy

*Comparison*



sunnyscot said:


> Hi guys Gerryd and I are going to compare scuttles and engines this weekend as both of us have had new scuttles. We are both at Loch Lomond this weekend so a chance to compare a peugeot to a fiat engine covers and scuttles. Will post any pics and comparisons probably next Tuesday when we are back.


Hi Carol
Loving the new name 8) 
How did the comparison go?
PS
In France on Wifi so may not see your answer straight away  
Regards Catherine


----------



## carolgavin

vmeldrew said:


> Carolgavin, GerrD,
> 
> Would be interested to know if there is any noticeable difference between new and old scuttles if you come across anyone who hasn't had a new one to compare with.
> 
> I hope to be away from tomorrow for a few days without internet access FYI.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ray


Compared Polos old one with my 'new' one and quite honestly there is absolutely no difference whatsoever. They seem identical in everyway. So can conclude i may have a 'new' scuttle but it is most definately NOT of a new design!! Either wider narrower, blacker or plasticyer!! Have some photos which will attempt to post!!


----------



## carolgavin

Here are two pics one of a 'new' scuttle one of an 'old' scuttle see if you can tell the difference!!!!


----------



## Autoquest

Hi Carol, now you have a new scuttle get hold of David Whitehead at Explorer and stick some of their scuttle tape on. It looks good stuff... Thanks for the contact details.


----------



## WiltonShagpile

Hi,

Just been up to my friendly Fiat dealer (mainly cars) but does service a few Motorhomes. He had a new type Fiat Autotrail outside and we got talking. He's been a friend for over 10 years and I do tend to trust what he's saying. 

Not a happy state of affaires for the new Fiat/Peugeot. He was saying that there have been that many recalls he’s lost count, water ingress, bolts dropping off the gearbox/clutch, need for covers on various bits, vibrations in reverse gear, it just went on and on.

The real klanger though is:- Peugeot have apparently altered there warranty in light of the fact they cannot find a cure to a lot of these problems.

SO……. 
a, is this legal for Peugeot to clause away your warranty? 
b, will you have to take them to court to get a satisfactory motorhome, one without grinding banging mechanicals. 
c, it’s a characteristic of the product (in other words it’s crap construction and we can’t fix it) but it still runs, but not very well. 

All I can say is I’m glad I bought the last model, It’s just about bomb proof.

All the best Dave.


----------



## 107088

Oh Carol, ( there may be a song in there somewhere) anyway, I CAN tell the difference.


s'easy, the one at the top, is darker, and also theres a blue face shape attached. 




see. observant and clever me


----------



## Grizzly

WiltonShagpile said:


> b, will you have to take them to court to get a satisfactory motorhome, one without grinding banging mechanicals.
> c, it's a characteristic of the product (in other words it's crap construction and we can't fix it) but it still runs, but not very well.
> :


b) We have a 2007 Fiat X250. it has no "grinding, banging mechanicals", indeed it is smooth and very quiet. We had both the 2004 and 2005 Peugeots from new and it is a good deal quieter than either of them.

c) On the contrary, it runs very well. The water ingress on ours is fixed and no longer leaks ( and it didn't affect the running anyway) and the other recalls are all sorted. We have not had bolts dropping off the gearbox or clutch.

I suspect your friendly neighbourhood garage owner, were he to add up the actual recall items , would find it easy to count them. There have not been so many.

It would be interesting to have listed the "so many problems that Peugeot cannot find a cure for them"

G


----------



## Briarose

Grizzly said:


> WiltonShagpile said:
> 
> 
> 
> b, will you have to take them to court to get a satisfactory motorhome, one without grinding banging mechanicals.
> c, it's a characteristic of the product (in other words it's crap construction and we can't fix it) but it still runs, but not very well.
> :
> 
> 
> 
> b) We have a 2007 Fiat X250. it has no "grinding, banging mechanicals", indeed it is smooth and very quiet. We had both the 2004 and 2005 Peugeots from new and it is a good deal quieter than either of them.
> 
> c) On the contrary, it runs very well. The water ingress on ours is fixed and no longer leaks ( and it didn't affect the running anyway) and the other recalls are all sorted. We have not had bolts dropping off the gearbox or clutch.
> 
> I suspect your friendly neighbourhood garage owner, were he to add up the actual recall items , would find it easy to count them. There have not been so many.
> 
> It would be interesting to have listed the "so many problems that Peugeot cannot find a cure for them"
> 
> G
Click to expand...

 Hi we are the same as you our Fiat recalls were done a couple of weeks ago by the garage in Lincoln. The guy there was really helpful and checked that everything was done that should be done etc no reports of bolts dropping off etc for us either.


----------



## Tucano

Briarose,Grizzly, steady on chaps you aren't entering into the spirit of things. You musn't ever ever say anything nice about the Fiat x250 chassis, it's just not on chaps. :lol: :lol: 
Regards,
Norman


----------



## Grizzly

TUCANO said:


> Briarose,Grizzly, steady on chaps you aren't entering into the spirit of things. You musn't ever ever say anything nice about the Fiat x250 chassis, it's just not on chaps. :lol: :lol:
> Regards,
> Norman


 :lol: :lol:

G


----------



## Tucano

:wink:


----------



## Briarose

TUCANO said:


> Briarose,Grizzly, steady on chaps you aren't entering into the spirit of things. You musn't ever ever say anything nice about the Fiat x250 chassis, it's just not on chaps. :lol: :lol:
> Regards,
> Norman


Speak as you find :wink: if only everyone lived my that motto hey ?


----------



## 108370

The Citroen has now been sorted , which includes the cover over the engine and the wiper motor.

However it did not cover the enlarging of the holes in the ends of the scuttle nor scuttle replacement.

I spoke directly to the technician and we agreed that any water that enters the engine bay falls harmlessly and would not cause any issues.

HOWEVER that does not include the small holes . When I suggestec enlarging these he agreed that on the offside it would be an advantage BUT on the nearside it would cause water to fall on the ABS cntyrol unit. 

Bear in mind these were his NOT Citroens view.

I am fairly practical and will enlarge both holes and fit drain pipes ( as previously suggested)

I posted a while ago about the pipework leading to the water expansion tank being liable to break . This part which broke on our van was replaced and is now re routed OVER the new cover 

Interesting as I have not seen any reference to this by anyone else. The solution is good but why ?

The opinion also is that Citroen MAY issue a further recall rtegarding the small drain holes !!!!!

As an aside there was a new software download which appaently affects performance and I have to say that the trottle response has been vastly improved particularly in 5th and 6 th gear.

This is a very recent modification , within the last 6 weeks it seems


----------



## 108370

interesting development today.

I was called by the dealer to say that there was another recall for the van, if I could take it in today itr would only take 15 minutes to resolve.

It seems trhat the fuse needs replacing on the vehicle battery, but I could not ascertsin if this was a safety issue or a minor problem.

Anyone else heard of this one?


----------



## carolgavin

reeventu said:


> interesting development today.
> 
> I was called by the dealer to say that there was another recall for the van, if I could take it in today itr would only take 15 minutes to resolve.
> 
> It seems trhat the fuse needs replacing on the vehicle battery, but I could not ascertsin if this was a safety issue or a minor problem.
> 
> Anyone else heard of this one?


Interesting very very interesting!! Seems things change by the minute!!


----------



## safariboy

The battery fuse has been on the recall list for some time. I understand that is is mostly a check that the correct fuse has been fitted. Mostly they have.

This sort of recall is not uncommon on any vehicle. Until recently I did not understand that when you car goes in for service it is not that uncommon. Recently our 8 year old car had a switch just replaced to a hight spec one. It operated the rear view mirror.


----------



## Kairo

Hi.

I have have the scuttle changed by Fiat, but the gap-fix did not last for long.

Ended up wit a small lexan plate (about 4cm. X 10cm.), warmed it up and formed it, so it fitted under the scuttle-gap.

Filled the gap on the scuttle and the upper side of the lexan-plate with Tec 7, and drilled 4 holes through the scuttle / lexan plate. Then used 4 small stainless selftapping screws trough the scuttle / lexanplate.

Sounds like a ugly-looking project, but i think it was looking pretty nice. 
4 small heads from the screws is the only thing that shows. -With a scuttle-gap sealed 100%.

Kairo
Norway


----------



## carolgavin

Kairo said:


> Hi.
> 
> I have have the scuttle changed by Fiat, but the gap-fix did not last for long.
> 
> Ended up wit a small lexan plate (about 4cm. X 10cm.), warmed it up and formed it, so it fitted under the scuttle-gap.
> 
> Filled the gap on the scuttle and the upper side of the lexan-plate with Tec 7, and drilled 4 holes through the scuttle / lexan plate. Then used 4 small stainless selftapping screws trough the scuttle / lexanplate.
> 
> Sounds like a ugly-looking project, but i think it was looking pretty nice.
> 4 small heads from the screws is the only thing that shows. -With a scuttle-gap sealed 100%.
> 
> Kairo
> Norway


Hiya Kairo thanks for that and glad you got things sorted. Wonder if you would care to add your details onto our spreadsheet thread CLICK HERE

Does your vehicle judder in reverse and have you heard anything about this in Norway???? Thanks.


----------



## kfitz

*blacklisted M/H*

Hi

New member looking to purchase M/H, between 1 and 5 years old, worried about the Fiat X250 problem, should I avoid this vehicle with all models or is the problem restricted to Swift only. It it only new vehicles, are pre 2006 therefore okay?

Is a list available on this site naming the year make and model to avoid?

It look a very minor problem, i.e. gutter to keep the water away from the engine compartment, but why is it taking Fiat months or years to sort it out.

Can any member recommend a small 2 berth model without problems.

Thanks.

kfitz


----------



## b6x

Hi all. Am I right in assuming after reading (most of :wink this thread that Fiat are now totally replacing the scuttle with a resigned one that allows drainage of water right across it's length? Fed up with putting tupperware under the bonnet now and cringing everytime it rains.

Mine went in for the recall work, including the crappy plastic covers, but looks awful and still leaks.

Ta.
Steve


----------



## Tucano

Steve,
Don't know about replacement of the scuttle, mine has supposedly had the fix but still leaks, less admittedly but, still a leak.
In the August edition of MMM, page 12, a guy has come up with a brilliant idea to catch the water from the central "chute" in the engine bay.
He has simply tied a plastic milk container lengthwise to the "chute" and the water collects in that. To take his idea one step forward it would be relatively easy to bore a hole in the lid and attach a plastic tube of the required length to take the water down and away.
I am still hopeful that I have sold my vehicle :roll: drastic but permanent :lol: 
Regards,
Norman

PS, I agree the original scuttle has probably "resigned" :wink:


----------



## Autoquest

Hang on a mo - Haven't you all had the 'water catcher' fitted that drains the water away very nicely?


----------



## Tucano

Enlighten me :roll:


----------



## Tucano

Enlighten me :roll:


----------



## Autoquest

Courtesy of Carolgavin


----------



## fransgrandad

*Base Chassis (Fiat/Mercedes/Iveco ect)*

Hi everyone,

Okay, so I have got this wrong, but when my water ingress problem was dealt with the operation was to seal, not replace the scuttle, fit a cover over the engine, and spray engine mounts with an anti corrosive seal.

So I guess you would not see a difference, I did have look at a Peugot the other day and as far as I can see the cover over the engine was the same as the Fiat and the scuttle was sealed to the screen.

The job done on my van has stopped the leak, Again I stand to be corrected but I understand that the mods are limited to motorhomes white van man has to put up rusty injectors!!

Les.


----------



## Tucano

Autoquest, Carolgavin,
Many thanks for that, much appreciated,
Norman


----------



## b6x

Crap plastic covers and a bit of mastic aren't my idea of a decent fix... and am not happy to take that as a fix and stop moaning at them. Covering engine parts just diverts water to other lower parts of the engine. I'm sick fed up with coming across rusty parts in the engine bay. 

Surely the plastic covers are not the official, once and for all fix to water entering the engine bay. Amazed others are happy with this, or other added plastic "water catcher" crap.


----------



## Tucano

b6x,
Not at all happy about temporary nature of the official fix but if I can do a better job myself I will.
Norman


----------



## b6x

TUCANO said:


> b6x,
> Not at all happy about temporary nature of the official fix but if I can do a better job myself I will.
> Norman


Totally agree. I've drilled holes in various parts of my scuttle and routed winscreen washer pipes to try and drain the water away, however it still runs off the windscreen and straight under the scuttle in parts... so it's impossible to catch it all (and I've had the recalls done). I was expecting a re-designed scuttle by now, not some after-thought moulded plastic covers and some ugly looking black "catcher" thing. Ok as remedial work, but a joke if they think that's "problem solved".

Some people in this thread however seem to suggest they've had replacement scuttles installed that have a better join and a single channel to direct water from one side of the van to the drain on the other.

Also noticed today that part of the recall work appears to be to drill a hole in the scuttle just below the driver-side wiper and let the water from there drain into the engine bay too. Nice work Fiat.


----------



## carolgavin

b6x said:


> TUCANO said:
> 
> 
> 
> b6x,
> Not at all happy about temporary nature of the official fix but if I can do a better job myself I will.
> Norman
> 
> 
> 
> Totally agree. I've drilled holes in various parts of my scuttle and routed winscreen washer pipes to try and drain the water away, however it still runs off the windscreen and straight under the scuttle in parts... so it's impossible to catch it all (and I've had the recalls done). I was expecting a re-designed scuttle by now, not some after-thought moulded plastic covers and some ugly looking black "catcher" thing. Ok as remedial work, but a joke if they think that's "problem solved".
> 
> Some people in this thread however seem to suggest they've had replacement scuttles installed that have a better join and a single channel to direct water from one side of the van to the drain on the other.
> 
> Also noticed today that part of the recall work appears to be to drill a hole in the scuttle just below the driver-side wiper and let the water from there drain into the engine bay too. Nice work Fiat.
Click to expand...

Mine still leaks even after all the above stuff has been done!


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## Autoquest

Explorer group have started to put some rather nice laser cut tape across the top of the scuttle and windscreen, they also put a small piece over the scuttle join - When applied properly it looks very good and works brilliantly. Carol kindly supplied the name of the guy in Explorer group (somewhere in the depths of this thread) who is responsible for this stuff, I emailed him and received some tape for self application about a week later. I removed my old gaffer tape and cleaned the area with white spirit, applied the tape and hey presto! leak free... I didn't apply the rectangular piece of the scuttle seal, I just let it leak into the catcher (see pic above) where it drains off as advertised. All in all a good job. 

My Peugeot dealer has an engine cover waiting for me to go and pay for it but I'm not sure that I need it now...

How are you all drilling these small drain holes out from the wells at the ends of the scuttle and what are you using to drain the water away?


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## rowley

Autoquest wrote My Peugeot dealer has an engine cover waiting for me to go and pay for it.

Surely that can't be correct. My Fiat cover was done under the warranty.


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## Autoquest

After a year of waiting I slowly(?) realised that my 'free' cover wasn't going to appear any time soon. Once I offered to pay it arrived within seven days - Funny that :? :? :?


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## erkhu

Autoquest said:


> Hi Carol, now you have a new scuttle get hold of David Whitehead at Explorer and stick some of their scuttle tape on. It looks good stuff... Thanks for the contact details.


Please give info how to contact David Whitehead at Explorer to get the laser cut tape for the scuttle.
Eric


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## carolgavin

erkhu said:


> Autoquest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Carol, now you have a new scuttle get hold of David Whitehead at Explorer and stick some of their scuttle tape on. It looks good stuff... Thanks for the contact details.
> 
> 
> 
> Please give info how to contact David Whitehead at Explorer to get the laser cut tape for the scuttle.
> Eric
Click to expand...

Hi phone Explorer Group direct and ask to speak to him. Number is 01207 699 000 website is www.explorer-group.co.uk


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## erkhu

[quote="Hi phone Explorer Group direct and ask to speak to him. Number is 01207 699 000 website is www.explorer-group.co.uk[/quote]

Thanks but it would be easier to email him as I am not in the UK


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## harburner

*laser tape*

Tried to get in touch with David Whitehead today but he is on holiday this week and next. Had a look at their web site and cannot see any mention of sales of tape etc. Is it only David that can help?


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## carolgavin

No idea, he was the only contact I had at Explorer! Would really rather not put his e-mail address on a public forum but if you want it PM me.


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## 117659

If any customer is still experiencing water ingress concerns and haven't spoken to Fiat, please contact us.

Fiat Professional - 00800 3428 0000 option 3

Fiat House
240 Bath Road
Slough 
Berkshire
SL1 4DX

[email protected]


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## Rapide561

*Fiat*

Fiat

Irrespective of the "why, who, where, when, which and how", welcome to the forum.

Russell (& Jenny the dog)


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## mgf

It nice of Fiat to make contact with customers but what about Peugeot re reversing judder.
I have tried several times to obtain a case number but on each occassion Peugeot alway avoided the question and do not give a case number.


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## carolgavin

mgf said:


> It nice of Fiat to make contact with customers but what about Peugeot re reversing judder.
> I have tried several times to obtain a case number but on each occassion Peugeot alway avoided the question and do not give a case number.


Try asking to speak to Darren Moore he is the motorhome contact guy that Peugeot announced ages ago. Cannot remember where!


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## monkton

Hello Fiat UK. My 2008 Autotrail Cheyenne 840D was taken to the local Fiat agent for its PDI and the recalls refered to in these pages by my dealer prior to the vehicle handover to myself. I was assured at that time that each of the issues relating to the scuttle, water ingress, etc., had been addressed by Fiat. However, I discovered that much of this work had not been done (i.e. engine cover not fitted) and that what was done has proven totally ineffective (i.e. scuttle leaking like a proverbial sieve over the engine and components). Despite my raising this three times with my dealer, they have been informed by the Fiat agent that all of the modifications have been undertaken. It is a disgrace that I should begin to think that my dealer was not acting positively on my behalf by actually contacting Fiat as advised but such were the doubts in my mind that I contacted the local Fiat agent myself.......only to be told the same as the dealer, namely confirmation that all such work had been undertaken! I have also raised with this agent my concerns that following their PDI on the vehicle, none of the paperwork was completed. This leaves me with the question as to whether the PDI was actually done!
I have now written directly to Fiat UK Customer Relations under cover of Registered Mail regarding these matters and the further concerning issue of the reverse juddering and clutch burn. I have requested acknowledgement of this correspondence together with positive answers as to the matters raised.
I have been somewhat encouraged by your recent postings regarding these matters, although clearly I await some early positive action by Fiat to resolve these serious matters to my personal satisfaction and that of the many other people who have put their faith in your vehicle.


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## 117659

Monkton,

Please can you advise when you have sent your letter to our customer relations department. We contact customers within 24 hours for cases called in and 3 days for letter cases.

If you do not recieve a response within this time frame, please email [email protected] requesting an update.

Please address your email to Justin Westnedge who is the Senior of the Fiat Professional team in order for him to check the status of your written concerns.


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## monkton

Hello Fiat UK. 

Many thanks for your response to my earlier post. I can confirm that my letter, dated the 20th. October 2008, was posted on the 21st. October at 10:59 hrs with a guaranteed delivery date of the 22nd. October 2008. The Registered Post barcode is ZV686270865GB. 

I note your comments regarding the Fiat response time for surface mail and look forward to hearing from Fiat during the early part of next week. I shall, of course, follow this up as per your guidance in the event of non-contact.

Once again, thank you for your response.


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## bigspaces

Hello

I am struggling trying to read through all the messages in this vast thread.

Can anyone surmise the situation on the water scuttle problem, inasmuch did Fiat rectify the problem from any date of manufacture onwards? If so, does it work?

I am due to collect my new Mondial (Ducato base) in a few days but happy to lose the deposit if Fiat are still mugging customers over this.

Regards
Lyn


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## 1happy

*Did fiat fix the scuttle?*



bigspaces said:


> Hello
> 
> I am struggling trying to read through all the messages in this vast thread.
> 
> Can anyone surmise the situation on the water scuttle problem, inasmuch did Fiat rectify the problem from any date of manufacture onwards? If so, does it work?
> 
> I am due to collect my new Mondial (Ducato base) in a few days but happy to lose the deposit if Fiat are still mugging customers over this.
> 
> Regards
> Lyn


Hi Lyn.
I was hoping to not be the one to answer this question as some might call me biased  But no-one else has posted & you are right this and the other big thread by Andy Stothert are a daunting/enormous read 8O 
Fiat/Dealers are to my knowledge stuffing sealant wherever they can think of to prevent the water getting in & then cover the engine (some might say to hide the rust :roll: )
I took the view that for however long the water got it in prior :arrow: what long term damage is not evident (but could be later  )
Also You have to remember the 'judder' 8O 
I see you have been a member for quite a while  so a quick search to see how many members have talked (good or bad) about the Sevel / X250 should give you enough info to decide if the risk is worth it :idea:

It is your choice but you could always ask your dealer if you could use your deposit against another van that is not on the new base......His response would be interesting & may give you another clue as to what your decision should be.

Also the Database of owners _with details added so far_ is Here>
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-36202.html
The Spreadsheet is here>
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pAEVt64jPXtRWMrFlbwFzDw

Whatever you decide good luck  
I am sorry if I sound negative  My experience of Fiat / Dealer drove me to trade in sooner than intended (for a 2nd hand Merc & very happy too )

I am sure another member will come along & bring balance to the answer you seek.
Regards Catherine


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## teemyob

*Re: Faulty Fiats*



GerryD said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Not having needed to or had time to follow these threads regarding the Fiart chassis, please excuse me if I am suggesting something that has already mentioned. Anywhere here goes.....
> 
> Have you not so merry Fiat owners considered a mass convoy or convoys along motorways protesting about your faulty purchases.
> 
> As an example, could 500 or so of you not arrange to meet on the M25 one weekend, drive around with banners listing your problems. A call to TV station might even get you National coverage. At the same time, Midlanders could tour the M6, the Northerners the M60, Yorkshire, NE and Lincs the M1?
> 
> Just a thought!
> 
> Trev.
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, this is a crackpot idea that could never work.
> No need now as Fiat owners are getting their scuttles sorted and very soon the same will be happening at Peugeot.
Click to expand...

Still think my idea is "Crackpot"?


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## 38Rover

problems with water ingress under the bonnet of X250 try this link

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-312663.html#312663


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## Steamdrivenandy

If you're getting a 'new' 'new' Mondial then I think all the scuttlegate issues have been tackled on the X250 production line for the last 18 months or so. 

The 'fixes' that 1H refers to were what occurred to sort the issues on the original 12 to 18 months of X250 production.

I wouldn't worry too much, after all engines sit outside in all weathers and run with the slipstream kicking up all sorts of wet and muck, a bit more coming from above via the scuttle (even if it still leaks) isn't going to cause any real bother and it would take a helluva long time to rust through most engine components.

Juddering in reverse is potentially a much more serious issue and there are lots of X250 that don't judder but quite a few that do. Trouble is you can't tell 'til you drive each individual one. I assume that if your van is of relatively new production you'll have all the engine mounting and other fixes incorporated on the line, but reports vary as to their efficacy.

HTH and adds balance.

SDA


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## Telbell

> Still think my idea is "Crackpot"?


To be fair to Gerry his is a "dated" comment and related (it seems) to Scuttlegate.

"Juddergate" "High reverse geargate" and "sorry but 3litres don't have a problemgate" is much more enduring and serious.

Congrats on the "two pincer/double thread" approach though :wink: :wink: :lol:


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