# LPG Drop out holes



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Please can we all keep our civil heads on. This Place is called Motorhome Facts and the statement below is a FACT and relevant.

FACT : German Vans do not have drop out holes for Gas.

Do bear in mind that they are one of the most stringent countries with safety regulations and motorhomes.

Reason : CO from vehicles and traffic entering the vehicle is far more likely to cause injury or death. Risk of an LPG build up is negligable.

IT was implied in the last thread that I was advocating blocking up the holes, I did not and am not saying you should do that.

I believe you should be furnished with the fact to make your own decisions. 

BTW I have dug a little deeper on the following point.

Most motorhomes never see a corgi gas fitter (with or without the extra Mobile LPG qualification)

Annual habitation checks on gas are done by service techinicians basically motorhome service personell with their heads screwed on. Normally they are not Corgi registered ((99.99%) the only reason I say Normally is because someone will Know of an X Corgi gas fitter who is now a service technician !)

So when they are built no Proper gas Fitter
When commissioned, this is a strange one everyones keeping Mum I have no Idea at the moment.
On service No Corgi

Anyone found one of these mythical gas safety certificates yet ? Other than in a hire vehicle which must (Should) have one. This is a point that leads me to conclude that in reality they are not even commisioned by a Corgi either.

The Above is not argumentative it is a round up of facts, by all means comment, discuss or ignore.

George


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

"Reason : CO from vehicles and traffic entering the vehicle is far more likely to cause injury or death. Risk of an LPG build up is negligable."

Edit

The above should include CO from heaters ie Eberspacher, Carver, Truma, propex etc not Just from Traffic, or from the chap in the next van running his engine to charge batteries or heat the vehicle.

Geo


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## 89813 (May 1, 2005)

*George for once I agree with you but on the SBMCC it states this *



> GAS STORAGE: The BS 1646 standards state (in simple terms) that gas bottles must be stored in a purpose built locker, this means accessible only from outside or in a completely sealed locker, if accessible to the interior. It must also be able to resist fire for a minimum of 20 minutes which means it has to be constructed from Steel, NOT Aluminum as aluminum would melt under these conditions. It also must have a 'Drop-out' hole at the lowest point. The Gas bottles must be connected with a flexible hose to a coupling outlet running to the outside of the box sealed from the outside with a gas tight sealer. The shut off valve must be outside the box.
> UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES MUST ANY ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT BE STORED IN THE SAME BOX.
> GAS APPLIANCES: Must have a dropout hole at the lowest point and have a shut off valve to service each one independently.
> ALL GAS INSTALLATIONS MUST BE CONNECTED AND CHECKED BY AN LPG CORGI SPECIALIST..


I did try and discuss this with them along with other matters but got nowhere


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## 89813 (May 1, 2005)

If the gas bottle is in a sealed locker then exhaust fumes cant enter the van through the gas locker. However if you put drop out holes everywhere this may cause a problem.
If you have a sealed locker wouldn’t it be better to keep any escaping gas in the locker rather than having it pouring out of the drop out holes like a fuse!


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

As is ever the good George must prove his point, but he is right.

If any of you wish to believe that what he says is incorrect, then that is up to you and there will be no harm done.

Nobody anywhere said anything about blocking up drop out holes. I would imagine that if you did, and there was a fire, the makers would wriggle around it by saying that it was your fault.

I have never been able to understand what makes the makers the experts. Is there a degree or special training course that qualifies one to be a qualified motor caravan maker? and therefore an expert. Nope there aint. Only experience. There are no rules as to how a van has to be built. No rules about gas cylinders being in a sealed lockers... No rules about if the drinking water pipe/tank must be food quality, no rules saying there must be an earth leakage circuit breaker in the 240v system.

If I buy a van and convert it to a motorhome and sell it for a profit, I am a profesional motorcaravan manufacturer.

If you need to ask then you don't know. If you don't know then why do some disbelieve what the answer is.


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## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

ok glad to see this thread is much more civil 

I do agree that this is def a problem with mh design and construction, yet another to add to the list.

Are there any other oversights that are known of, i.e. i seem to remember some issues with furniture material being flammable etc as well. ?

It would be good to collate all this sort of information into a datasheet and then present it to someone with enough power to legislate somehow on it.

Comments welcome


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

ha, the SBMCC

They have been told no end of times that it is not BS 1646 (actual Number is EN something or other. the one they refer too relates to Technical drawings or some such.

But bear in mind in a recent thread on there the boss reccomended using a Halfords bench charger (£30) permenantly wired in. This is a dangerous thing to reccomend as it is not designed to be used like this, it turns your charger and battery into a potential time bomb, the worst part is that a porper solution that fully charges the batteries is available at only £20 more.

I put up a polite response pointing out the dangers, which they already know as I have pointed this out before, which was promptly deleted. 

Do also bear in mind that the committee decided that testing RCD's at a meet up was dangerous (because of the possibility of future claims) fair enough you may think, but then they go on to organise BBQ's at the same meet, which as anyone can see is far more likely to cause litigation from Burns, Fires, Food poisening.

George


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## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

ok, George, we know your opinion of the SBMCC, any thoughts on this aspect of mhing though i.e. what parts of a motorhome makeup arent legislated enough, what aspects are dangerous either in their design or lack of professional overseeing at installation and routine inspections ?


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Nuke

You wont get me campaigning for more nanny state rules.

I believe we should all use common sense. 

That involves thinking for yourselves or joining reasoned discussions at places like this.

I like the freedom that the lax legislation brings, it allows me to research and use build a safer set up than stringent rules would allow. I have discussed my electric system with several Time served electricians in real life including some who work on mobile installations and discussed online with several electricians also looked up 16th edition and the American and Australian Regs.

Personally I think drop out holes are not a good idea, they cause drafts and allow deadly CO easy access.

You have to be extremely careful how you phrase anything, I am not suggesting anyone should block off ventilation willy nilly.


George


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## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

understood on the nanny state setup George, but what can we as motorhomers do to improve our safety and well being on our non self built mhs


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Motorhomes are very safe, look at the safety records (not the driving bit although they are good too)

If we insist on Corgi Checks it will cause MAJOR Expense and problems (basically there are not enough (Mobile LPG qualified)) corgi's ergo the ones that are about would fleece you silly hundreds of Motorhomes would be unuseable and or condemed (the ones that dont conform to regs (ie Most))

On the electricity front.

There is no way to "legally" wire ; a hook up, Genny And Invertor togethor in a motorhome.

As mentioned before London Underground use RCD protection on Invertors knowing full well that they will (cannot) operate due to the nature (lack) of earth ( and the earth neutral bonding )

Common sense can make these systems safe, legislation wouldnt, but it would make them more expensive.

George


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

> but what can we as motorhomers do to improve our safety and well being on our non self built mhs
> _________________


Its up to you when you buy the things.

ASk if the foam is fire retardant if that worries you.

ASK if they will bring in a corgi man who will perform a gas check.

ASK for an electricians report.

If they hesitate you walk away.

If people stopped paying inflated prices for houses then the prices would drop.

Same goes for motorhomes.


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## arcsystems (May 1, 2005)

I am not sure just what the argument is here, as I see it there is confusion as to who can install/work on gas in a motorhome and the regulations that cover both.
Simply there is no regulation to cover who, however there is plenty to cover how and on this last note some 'posters' are very wide of the mark with their 'opinions'.
An example would be, "BS5482: part2: 1977, Propane and Butane gas burning installations in caravans and non-permanent dwellings", and yes this also applies to motorhomes
Some may not think a British Standard is law but I would say in the event of a court case the prosecution would base it's case upon it and ignorance of it would be no defence. As well as manufactures, this would equally include the self builder, especially in the event of a third party death.
My point is this, having read though some of the ridiculous 'opinions' proporting to be facts on the locked thread, unless one can state categorically a fact then give it as an opinion.


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

> unless one can state categorically a fact then give it as an opinion.


And on saying that, can you state what you have written as fact, or is it your interpretation of what you have been told, or read?


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## arcsystems (May 1, 2005)

Just once and no more

"I am not sure"

"I would say"

MY point is this.

Facts?


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Arc

What you post says is that you agree there is no regulation of who does it (unless its a rental vehicle in which case there is law insisting that its properly inspected and tested.)

If they (Prosecution / Criminal case? or defendant and Plaintiff in the more likely scenario of litigation) base their case on it, then they would have to agree that as long as it was done right then no Problem who did it (unless rental yada yada) 

Many motorhomes imported into this country NEVER see a corgi check, If German it will "fail" on no drop out holes. 

Based on your position they cannot sell a German motorhome over here?

There are many other vans that do not follow Gas regs at all, none would be saleable in the scenario that you put forth.

"My point is this, having read though some of the ridiculous 'opinions' proporting to be facts on the locked thread, unless one can state categorically a fact then give it as an opinion."


Other than By implication, I dont think you have shown any previous opinion is wrong.

Please show one ridiculous opinion and evidence to the contrary.

George

But remember the Overall motorhoming is very safe, Please dont have nightmares


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

I'm rather inclined to let people believe what they want to feel happy with.

If they want their lpg bottle in a steel lined vault and believe that it is law to do so then ok.

I people want drop out holes, same as above.

Somebody once told me that he was told he couldnt go onto a a campsite because he didnt have a safety certificate for his gas, and a caravan dealer said much the same thing to me about 20 years ago.


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi George!

Maybe for the first time I can prove you wrong :wink: :



GeorgeTelford said:


> FACT : German Vans do not have drop out holes for Gas.


*This is not correct!*

Regulations regarding gas in motorhomes are (as usual in Germany) very strict. Some of them, but by far not all, are:

1. You may store up to two bottles of gas.
2. They must be stored in a special gas locker accessible only from the outside.
3. The gas locker must be sealed air-tight against the interior.
*4. It must have ventilation holes of at least 100 square centimetres effective area per bottle at the bottom!*
5. All gas appliances must be fitted with a protection against flame blowouts: Should the flame be blown out the appliance must shut off gas supply within 30 seconds.
6. The gas system must be checked by a certified expert every two years and after every modification.
7. This regular check must be recorded in a gas safety certificate which has to be carried in the van.
8. All modifications of the gas system also have to be recorded in the safety certificate.
9. Vans without a valid gas certificate will not pass the "TÜV", the mandatory bi-annual vehicle control (corresponding to your MOT, I think).

You are however right in one aspect:
Drop out holes _in the cab or habitation area floor_ are not allowed, unless they are automatically sealed when the engine is started. This is to prevent exhaust fumes to be pulled into the van while driving. For the same reason your normal car will not pass the "TÜV" if there are rust holes in the floor.

And there is an exception to rule no. 2: 
Under the condition that outside ventilation is provided, it is opening at the top side and this hatch has an airtight seal, it is allowed to make the gas locker accessible from the inside of the van. However in this case certain devices like automatic reserve bottle switchers are not allowed.

There are numerous other regulations e.g. regarding the max. content of a gas bottle, the size and material of the gas pipes, the number and positioning of shutoff valves, gas pressure and so on.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## 89813 (May 1, 2005)

The fact is any Tom Dick or George can install gas appliances in there own motorhome if they know what they are doing, with or without drop out holes, or a steel box. However if they want to hire out the van, that is a different matter. As for the resale I am not sure. If its badly fitted by a motorhome specialist and it blows up they should have insurance to cover for this. Myself I never sell on any of my vans when I have finished with them, they end up at the scrap yard.


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

> Myself I never sell on any of my vans when I have finished with them, they end up at the scrap yard.


My thoughts go partly that way.

I would be inclined to disconnect the gas supply and remove the cylinder.

Rather like what some dealers do.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Gerhard

I said they dont have drop out holes, the bit I read said none and why ie the CO Fumes, it didnt specifically mention the gas locker, according to UK rules the interior as to have drop out holes though, so it is still outside of UK Regs. BTW I did mention that the ~German regs were more stringent.

Germany

6. The gas system must be checked by a certified expert every two years and after every modification. 

UK

We have "regs" but they only have to be followed under a limited set of scenario's. By anyone who can read and follow the rules.

I totally agree with Arc that Litigation could be a factor, it just doesnt make it a law as such.

George


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## arcsystems (May 1, 2005)

Aha now we are getting some facts on German regulations and very similar to our British Standards. 
I have just found a note in BS5482 which states; Particular care has been taken with the object of overcoming special problems with ventilation of motor caravans. Reference should be made to the current Motor Vehicles (construction and use) Regulation.
There is a strong move toward the 'who to blame' attitude in this country as recent tragic events and subsequent court cases have shown. Getting it right is now the only option and the "that's near enough"or "I thought that was correct" attitude does not cut any ice when the proverbial hits the fan.
Your question George on selling German vans over here is partly answered by the existence of fairly equal regulation in both Country's. However to be sold over here in general they must meet NCC approval, their criteria is wholly based on British Standards and other relevant regulation, in fact they are party to it. It matters not if these criteria are ignored unless something goes wrong and that is when the courts will decide who is to blame. It would seem there are those that put their head in the sand and hope for the best with what they think they know. Personally I will go out of my way to make sure I know for sure before I start and certainly before stating 'facts' on here.


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

> However to be sold over here in general they must meet NCC approval


That only applies if the imprter/seller wants to be able stick a label on the van saying that it meets NCC standards.

The van does not have to meet that approval before it can be sold.

As I said before, I can buy a van, convert it and sell it. It wouldnt even have to have an MOT if it was less than 3 years old. However, it it blew up, it would be up to somebody esle to decide itf the cause of the explosion was my fault because of a dangerous installation or because the owner was negligent.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Arc

Similar is not the same. Send one of ours over there and it will fail, they send theirs over here no probs because we dont check.

Most motorhomes are not NCC approved. A lot dont even have flame resistant/retardent cushions and materials.

BTW its not nice shooting the messenger I am one of those saying it doesnt meet regs and as you have just confirmed, it doesnt.


See also "The Gerhard 240v socket in a showeroom Question" its seen on several imported Motorhomes and caravans.


George


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## Brambles (May 12, 2005)

Hi guys, I don't want to get embroiled in your discussions as I am enjoying reading all the opnions, views and facts on the sidelines.

However regarding power sockest in the shower rooms, on my motorhome it has one fitted but is disconnected from the mains wiring (cable is cut and insulated outside the cubicle behind a panel). I wonder how many other imported m/homes appear to have sockets but are in fact disconnected in the UK.
Jon.


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## arcsystems (May 1, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Arc
> 
> Similar is not the same. Send one of ours over there and it will fail,


Oh yes George this is very true, however believe me this is a completly different story and has nothing to do with gas safety or any other type of safety. You could build to any standard you like and it would still fail in Germany.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jon

I wonder how many are not disconnected? The one in My Hobby caravan was not and several people I have spoke to about it, theirs are not disconnected. (were not at the Time)

What really amazes me is when its ignored in Motorhome magazine write ups?

Here is a list of dodgy area's In motorhomes that I have discovered so Far all the following are on Professional builds not Self Builds.

Gas pipes not correct grade

Gas pipes not correct Type ie Flexible were should be copper and copper were should be flexible.

Gas cylinders under beds 

Gas bottles not in sealed safe area or fire proof box

No drop out holes

Drop out holes over exhausts (eberspacher, gennies etc)

Mains wiring (flex) running around mattress is rear permenant bed

12v switch in bathroom

240V sockets in bathroom

Halogen light not of correct IP being used in bathrooms (loads of these)

Batteries without proper venting.

leisure battery actually a standard battery with Vent caps, Zig X7 charger in same under bed locker

Many batteries with fuses inside same area, one even provided a unsealed light switch in the bed box to iluminate the under bed (and possibly cause explosion with unvented battery if anything was wrong)

Earth Neutral bonding at the distrbution board (RCD ~and mcb Box)

Unbonded conductors like steel sinks everywhere.

Mains and 12v wires thru same conduit

mains and 12v wiring going straight thru (ruff drilled as well!) ply without grommet or protection.

Wiring run thru gas locker

Chargers and invertors IN the battery box.

Many will not supply Regulator for gas bottle and leave a note/instructions that it should be commisioned and inspected by a professional.

Probably more I have not tried listing before, anyone else spotted any professional bloopers?

What always amazes me is that the selfbuilds I see, have usually got less wrong that the professional vans.


George


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