# Towbar/Chassis flexing ???



## Mrplodd

For some odd reason the other day I took a firm hold of a corner of the towbar fitted to my 2007 Cheyenne 696g ( garage version) and tried lifting it.

EEK!! It flexed up and down by about 10Cm withouth a huge amount of effort   

So I got underneath and got my neighbour to apply the brute force whilst I looked. The movement is flexing in the chassis extensions that fit into the main chassis rails just aft of the rear spring hangers 8O !!! (The towbar itself does not flex!) 

Bearing in mind 2m+ of the rear of the MH is supported on the same lengths of metal I am, to say the least a little concerned about all this movement thats possible when towing:? 

I tow a smart car on a trailer (within the limits advised by Autotrail of 1050Kg) and it is very well balanced with minimal nose weight but thinking about what might be happening whilst I am on a bumpy or undulating road concerns me a bit to say the least

Has anyone else noticed this?? Is it "Normal" on Autotrails with long overhangs? 

If you have a similar vehicle can you check and see if yours is the same and either PM me or post a reply.

(Next move is to email Autotrail and ask them but I thought I would post a quetion on here as well) 

(I have checked all the bolts securing the extensions in the chassis and they are tight)


----------



## Spiritofherald

Mrplodd said:


> EEK!! It flexed up and down by about 10Cm withouth a huge amount of effort


10cm or 10mm? I would be concerned at either, but especially 10cm!


----------



## listerdiesel

10cm of movement comes into the 'unsafe' area of operation, and that's without a towed vehicle behind.

Subject to confirmation of that dimension, I'd be very concerned and would start thinking about a VOSA vehicle inspection.

Peter


----------



## Sloany

I fitted an easylifter to the rear of my Hymer B774 Tag axle an then placed my Yamaha 660 tenere at 220kg on the lift. On jacking up the bike we could see the chassis exrensions flexing a large amount so abandoned the idea. Moving the tow bar by hand should not flex the chassis, have you checked the bolts that fasten it to the main chassis are tight? If they are loose also check the holes have not become elongated whilst moving back and forth whilst towing the toad. i wouldnt worry to much probably just loose, its not a complicated set up. Also check the fixings through the garage floor into the chassis.

Dave


----------



## Mrplodd

I will do a more scientific measurement of the actual movement amount tonight when I get home but when lying underneath you can see the floor above the extensions visibily flexing and its easily felt, hence my original post. (probably nearer 5cm than 10 (and yes I do mean cm not mm) but that still struck me as being a lot/too much for comfort!) 

I have emailed Autotrail as it is without a doubt their "bit" that is flexing rather than the original Fiat chassis or the actual towbar.

When (if?) i get a response from AT I will post it on this thread for everyone's info. 

I am, to say the least, a tad surprised as these extensions were fitted by Autotrail at the construction stage (rather than it being a home made conversion that is) and they give a max weight for any trailer :? So they are clearly happy with people attaching (and using ) a tow bar. Arent they??

It could well be that I am over reacting over this but I do feel its an issue that needs clarification from Autotrail. Has anyone ever heard of these chasis extensions breaking I wonder???

Depening on the response from Autotrail I may well be having an in depth conversation with the nice(?) men at VOSA ! 

It will be interesting to see if an other AT owners with similar vehicles have the same issue as well.

Andy

Sloany

Its flexing IN the EXTENSIONS rather than the original chassis or at the end where it mounts INTO the original chassis rail. 

There is no movement visible on the bolts and certainly no sign of them moving (rust stains etc) As for garage floor fixings well thats just ply and metal plate and you can SEE that all flexing when lying underneath and pushing the towbar up by hand :? (to be fair you do have to apply a bit of effort and I am not a seven stone weakling, but I aint Mr Atlas either!)


----------



## Sloany

Sorry Andy i thought it was an Alko chassis.

Dave


----------



## Rosbotham

I have (had) a similar 696G with towbar and could stand on it (I'm around 100kg) with no movement. Suspect you've got an isolated fault on your vehicle.

Was the towbar fitted under your ownership? Reading the apparent disregard that many folk seem to have for the towing limit on ATs, if it was fitted by a previous owner they could have exceeded AT's limit and compromised the chassis extensions. NB it's more likely that exceeding the noseweight limit would result in the type of effect you report.


----------



## Oscarmax

Mrplodd said:


> For some odd reason the other day I took a firm hold of a corner of the towbar fitted to my 2007 Cheyenne 696g ( garage version) and tried lifting it.
> 
> EEK!! It flexed up and down by about 10Cm withouth a huge amount of effort
> 
> So I got underneath and got my neighbour to apply the brute force whilst I looked. The movement is flexing in the chassis extensions that fit into the main chassis rails just aft of the rear spring hangers 8O !!! (The towbar itself does not flex!)
> 
> Bearing in mind 2m+ of the rear of the MH is supported on the same lengths of metal I am, to say the least a little concerned about all this movement thats possible when towing:?
> 
> I tow a smart car on a trailer (within the limits advised by Autotrail of 1050Kg) and it is very well balanced with minimal nose weight but thinking about what might be happening whilst I am on a bumpy or undulating road concerns me a bit to say the least
> 
> Hi Mr Plodd,
> 
> And yes you do have a problem, my 2008 Autotrail Cheynne 660 I think has a larger overhang than yours, and mine does not move at all. I constructed my own towbar several years ago, I connected straight to the Fiat Maxi chassis, changed all the 8.8 bolts to 12.5, plus put in some extra support for the Autotrail chassis extensions. I have little faith in the chassis extension and would not consider them strong enough to be subjected to a 75 kg nose weight. (if you PM me I will send you some photos)
> 
> Regarding towing on an A frame you are imposing very little in the way of nose weight, but yes you are right to be concerned you chassis extensions should not move. also have you considered, movement in these chassis extension will also impose unwanted load on the rear bodywork?


----------



## Oscarmax

*Towbar Pics*

My Autotrail Cheynne towbar


----------



## Oscarmax

*Autotrail Cheynne Towbar*

Part 2


----------



## philoaks

Interestingly Autotrail do not offer a towbar as a factory fitted option, (at least they don't now and a number of dealers at this years NEC show gave me the same answer).

Our Swift Bolero has fairly light looking chassis extensions on it so the aftermarket towbar that was fitted has long arms that go all the way to the original Fiat chassis.

It may be worth speaking to someone like PWS in Poole to ask what sort of setup they would use if making a towbar for your van.


----------



## Mike48

Many factory fitted towbars have a maximum weight limit of 85kgs.


----------



## warty

Oscarmax 

Thank you 

Very interesting gives me something to work on 




John


----------



## Bill_H

your chassis extention rails are attached to the body floor, so is the motorhome floor flexing as well? and if it is, surely all the body panels would be flexing to some extent as well.


----------



## goldi

Afternoon all,


I f this was a commercial vehicle at testing time it would be an immediate failure.



norm


----------



## Oscarmax

Mike48 said:


> Many factory fitted towbars have a maximum weight limit of 85kgs.


Hi ,

I Believe these are attached to the Alko chassis which regards towbars are a much superior design, chassis extentions and towbars are really a poor after thought.


----------



## sideways

This post has me worried i have an Apache 700 the towbar is home made from heavy channel and is welded to the chassis extensions on 4 legs, it must be very heavy and i want to hang a bike rack and two electric bikes on it to take to Spain.
Ive been worried about it since we bought the van(recently) as all this weight is just hanging on the chassis extensions which are fastened to the floor
.I,m capable of making my own towbar and think i,m going to cut the current one off and attach a new one to the main chassis as well as the extensions.


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

I am worried that several DIY towing brackets are out there. Whatever happened to type approval 
For passenger carrying vehicles manufactured after 1998 and with a GVW of up to 3500kg must have a type approved towbar. Vehicles over this weight do not .

I do stand to be corrected if there has been a change in regulations.

Dave p


----------



## airstream

*right n wrong*

Hi,
Regs depend on make n model and if type approved

Since 29 April 2009, a few
manufacturers have
voluntarily sought and
gained Type Approval for
their motorhomes before
launching them
➜From 29 April 2012, all new UK
motorhomes must either be
Type Approved or pass NSSTA
or IVA inspections
➜Like pre-1998 cars, older,
non-Type Approved
motorhomes used for towing
are not obliged to have a Type
Approved towbar fitted

Ray


----------



## pomme1

Mr Plodd,

I've had two 'vans like yours and still have the X250 version. I don't tow with mine, but I have to agree with Bill H's comments. Surely if the chassis extensions are moving that much, then the whole body structure above, not just the floor, must be moving, or the floor must be detached from the rest of the structure. Are there any signs of distress in the rear body panels anywhere?

Are you sure that you're not just getting a few mm of flex and the rest is not suspension movement?

Roger


----------



## sideways

I dont want to tow just carry a towball mounted rack, disability means i cant reach a wall mounted rack. As an aside i understand that home made towbars for own use only dont have to comply with any regs,Its selling them thats the problem.


----------



## Rosbotham

goldi said:


> I f this was a commercial vehicle at testing time it would be an immediate failure.


Integrity of towbars is part of the MOT for all vehicles now. Came in over the last year I seem to recall.


----------



## Mrplodd

In response to a few of the points raised.

The tow bar fitted is one made by PWS (who I understand are THE tow bar specialists!!)

The flex is in the chassis rail extensions NOT the tow bar assembly

The MH is the garage version so the floor of the garage is attached to the chassis extensions (unlike the pictures posted earlier) and yes you can see the floor flexing where it is attached to the chassis rails, and yes I am sure the movement is in the extensions and not the suspension moving. (I have air-ride fitted and pump it up to over 90psi in order to raise the rear up enough so I can reverse the MH over the top of my trailer to gain a bit of space on the driveway. So there is sod all suspension flex when its parked up. yes I do let it down again before leaving home!)

To be fair the flex is induced by me applying pressure to an external end of the towbar itself (rather than in the centre by the tow hitch)

The previous owner of this vehicle towed a Smart car on an A frame so there would have been no "up and down" pressure on the ball hitch, merely "fore and aft" (but he did sometimes carry a motor scooter in the garage)

Interestingly I have not yet had any response from Autotrail themselves, however as its a 2007 vehicle I am not expecting much from them.

Interestingly AT clearly give a "max trailer weight" (1050Kg which I am not exceeding) in their specifications and certainly nowhere do they say "You must not attach a towbar to this vehicle (which condition I have had with previous car  )

At this rate I will looking at selling a Smart car and trailer combo 

Keep you posted

(Edit) Just had this from AT

Hi, thank you for your enquiry.

We do not fit tow bars at the factory. It is the responsibility of the tow bar manufacturer/fitter to ensure that suitable reinforcement is added to the structure in order to cope with the extra load. Ideally the tow bar should be anchored back to the original Fiat chassis in accordance with Fiats fitting instructions.

Regards

WTF    ?????

Here is my reply to Autotrail

_Thanks for that. are you saying that the chassis rail extensions fitted by Autotrail, the ones that fit INSIDE the original chassis and then run rearwards, are not meant to have a tow bar fitted?? I

Your publicity for the vehicle only mentions a maximum trailer weight, there is no mention of any requirement for further strengthening being required. The Tow batr I have fitted to this vehicle is one manufactured by PWS of Poole who as I understand it are the manufacturer recommended by most (if not all) motorhome manufacturers including yourselves) It is a very substantial item.

My concernes are that the the chassis rail extensions fitted by yourselves are flexing a considerable amount. is this normal??

Can you please therefore confirm what, as the vehicle manufacturer, if any, additional strengthening is required ?_

As I see it Autotrail are now saying that the fitting of a towbar requires additional chassis strengthening. No mention of that in any of their literature is there??

I think I might write to Autotrail sales and enquire if I buy a new Mohawk (same vehicle) can I fit a towbar without further modification 8O


----------



## rayrecrok

Hm.

Any tow bar fitted to anything should not move in any direction, up or down, or side to side.

Movement is wear and wear can only get worse as time progresses causing weakness where there shouldn't be any..

The tow bar assembly is unsafe and I wouldn't personally use it, in fact why lug the thing around taking up valuable payload, take it off or have another one that goes onto the main chassis structure fitted, not on the extensions which are not designed to take the loads that are being imposed on it.

ray.

Edit..Just read further your last reply, who ever fitted the tow bar if they are a proper tow bar fitting company should know you never fit a tow bar to anything but the main chassis of a vehicle with a chassis, or the designated tow bar fitting points on a car.
Its not the motorhome manufacturer at fault, in my opinion you are blaming the wrong guys.


----------



## Mike48

rayrecrok said:


> Hm.
> 
> Just read further your last reply, who ever fitted the tow bar if they are a proper tow bar fitting company should know you never fit a tow bar to anything but the main chassis of a vehicle with a chassis, or the designated tow bar fitting points on a car.
> Its not the motorhome manufacturer at fault, in my opinion you are blaming the wrong guys.


Precisely my point but you beat me to it.

http://www.pwsacc.co.uk/


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

Its not the motorhome manufacturer at fault, in my opinion you are blaming the wrong guys. 


I agree.

Dave p


----------



## Mrplodd

Guys I accept what you are saying, thats why I am continuing this thread.

I am, to say the least though, a little concerned that (it appears) Autotrail are not making it clear that ADDITIONAL strengthening is required to their vehicle prior to fitting a towbar EVEN THOUGH they DO give a max trailer weight    ??

Just about to ring PWS !!!

Keep watching !

(edit)

Just got off the phone afterv speaking with David at PWS (what a nice chap) 

His comment was that he had not come across this problem before and he would be really like to see the vehicle and look at exactly what is happening. He was not too concerned that there is any risk at all in the chassis rail failing (phew!!) as he had a similar vehicle a few years ago where someone had fitted a mobility scooter rack on the towbar and done many thousands of miles without any issue. (Think of the leverage THAT would put on the extensions. I can understand that as its metal that is flexing over a considerable distance rather than a very high point loading)

I have agreed to take the vehicle to him at some point in the future so he can inspect it. the suggestion is to fit some reinforcement in to the garage floor. 

He also stated that all of his towbars are fitted EXACTLY in accordance with the instructions he has had from Autotrail and he was none to impressed by Autotrails response to my enquiry  

I will not be able to get to PWS for a couple of weeks but I WILL update this thread once david ahs had a looky-see !


----------



## rayrecrok

Mrplodd said:


> Guys I accept what you are saying, thats why I am continuing this thread.
> 
> I am, to say the least though, a little concerned that (it appears) Autotrail are not making it clear that ADDITIONAL strengthening is required to their vehicle prior to fitting a towbar EVEN THOUGH they DO give a max trailer weight    ??
> 
> Just about to ring PWS !!!
> 
> Keep watching !


Hmm

The circle turns, but always lands at the firm or individual (It looks like a home made botch to me) who fitted the tow bar as it isn't structurally fit for purpose, and the stated nose weight is one stated by the motorhome manufacturer that is a safe weight that does not alter the telemetry of the vehicle.

ray.


----------



## bigbazza

I can't see where Mrplodd blamed anyone :!: 
He was just looking for clarification and advixe from the vehicle manufacturer.


----------



## Mike48

Mr Plodd. Please mention vertical load to PWS. You might be surprised by their response if my experience is anything to go by.


----------



## Hawcara

Would it be possible for Mr Plodd to show the extension on the rear of his van, similar to Oscarmax, in order that comparison can be made.

I have some photos of the rear of our Chausson and the extension is similar to Oscarmax.


----------



## eurajohn

Whilst I would not wish to comment on the security or safety of the unit fitted to Mrplodd's Autotrail, I have just followed the link supplied by Mike48 and see that the tow bar has side extensions fitted I guess to act as some form of rear end bumper protection. Now I guess that Mrplodd is using the extreme end of this bar when getting the flex he mentions, this is giving him a large mechanical advantage, indeed someone in history suggested if you gave him a lever long enough and a fulcrum for it he could move the world, which is accepted as true by those that know such things. I would suggest that if the unit fitted to his van was the same design as the "discreet Hymer" one shown the amount of leverage he would be able to exert on the mountings would be far less and the subsequent amount of flex (if any then noticed) would be reduced.
Rather than be concerned by the flex induced by this test I would see what movement (if any measurable) would be found by placing an hydraulic jack complete with weighing device under the tow ball and raising the vehicle to the manufacturers safe weight and recording what flex there was. 
If using the tow bar for the purpose intended it should not be possible to induce flex of the type referred to simply fore and aft and up and down.

Having said all of that I would be less than happy with a tow bar fitted to the type of chassis extensions I have seen fitted to most motorhomes.

If the tow ball was used for mounting a bike or scooter rack on then the type of load induced by the OP's test would be possible.


----------



## Mrplodd

Mike

See above edited post for response from PWS. Nose weight was indeed discussed at some length during our conversation !!

I am aware that PWS are just about the premier supplier and fitters of towbars for MH's and in fact they are in the process of getting their towbars "type approved" to comply with the newest regs.

Eurojohn

You are 100% correct and I have been applying pressure to the outer extremity of the rear cross bar (rather than at the tow hitch) and that thought was starting to occur to me as well  I certainly will try the exercise with a trolley jack and report back :wink: 

However I would think the vast majority of loading on the towbar will be linear (pulling the trailer) however there will also be vertical loadings caused by the pitching of the trailer around its single centre axle.

I will try and post a few piccies of my rear extensions. They are roughly "C" section and appear very similar (from memory) to those pictures already posted. According to David at PWS the erar extensions are exactly the same on all Autotrails.

the only variance I can think of being that I have the garage version so there is just a huge flat floor all the way across the back of the vehicle. maybe thats half the problem?? There is no internal structure witin the garage to act as bracing, just a huge flat surface (the none garage version will have internal structures (walls/furniture etc) which must stiffen the whole assembly.

Andy


----------



## Mike48

Mr Plodd: I thought Auto trail had advised that and I quote............................."We do not fit tow bars at the factory. It is the responsibility of the tow bar manufacturer/fitter to ensure that suitable reinforcement is added to the structure in order to cope with the extra load. Ideally the tow bar should be anchored back to the original Fiat chassis in accordance with Fiats fitting instructions."

Doesn't the structure include the floor? And, while PWS claim that they fit the towbar in accordance with Autotrail's instructions it is clear from what you have said that the tow bar has not been anchored back to the Fiat chassis in accordance with Fiat's fitting instructions.

Having said that if a scooter has been carried in the garage (do we know the weight of the scooter) by a previous owner that would concentrate the load over a very small surface area and it could well be that the floor is deficient in some respect but I doubt whether Autotrail ever envisage heavy motor scooters being carried in a garage.


----------



## Mrplodd

Mike

I think it a bit unfair of AT to try and just wash their hands of the whole issue. They are the supplier of the vehicle in its final form. Its all very well to say "fit in accordance with Fiat instrucuions" but AT are the ones who order the base unit with shortened rear chassis rails so they can fit their own. How are Fiat supposed to provide instructions/supply advice when someone else has modified their base vehicle with componants they (Fiat) have no control over??

I am NOT trying to portion any blame/fault onto anyone over this. I am merely trying to get a definative answer to a problem I have identified.

IF there is a requirement to strengthen the chassis extensions I feel it is somewhat encumbent on Autotrail to make that clear in their publicity. Something along the lines of. 
"the maximum trailer weight that can be towed by this vehicle is 1050Kg _provided that additional strengthening is added, please contact us for further information and details of the components we can supply to enable this to be done_.

That surely would be a much fairer and sensible course of action rather than just saying "it aint our problem mate, its down to whoever fits the towbar"

Why bother to give details of a max trailer weight but "forget" (if appropriate) to mention that the structure of the vehicle will need beefing up to take the towbar you will require BEFORE you can tow your "up to 1050kg" trailer??

Am I alone in thinking that it is reasonable to expect the manufacturer to provide you with that (important safety) advice??

Its a bit like buying a TV and then finding that to run extra speakers from it (which the specification says can be done) you will need to uprate the mains cable supplying power?


----------



## rayrecrok

Hi.

There is no wriggle room for the tow bar fitter/manufacturer..

The tow bar must be totally rigid and should not flex in anyway at the tow ball end or anyway along the structure to the other final end or any other anchoring point along the way including any original structure from the motorhome manufacturer.

Common sense if nothing else dictates that there should be no movement and the structure should be as strong as can be achieved by anybody within the limitations of any vehicle. And this applies especially to a company who specialise in fitting the bloody things..

I would be on "The tow bar company like a ton of bricks", what if the tow bar breaks your van, or fails and causes a serious accident, you luckily now know there is a problem with the thing, so the onus is now on you, and in my opinion "you" now have no wriggle room if you use it in this condition!.

ray.


----------



## Mike48

Mr Plodd. 

I don't necessarily disagree but Autotrail have advised that:

"Ideally the tow bar should be anchored back to the original Fiat chassis in accordance with Fiats fitting instructions."

That has not happened in this case and if the structure flexes then surely the towbar people should have noticed this issue when the towbar was fitted. 

If the problem has occurred since the towbar was fitted then clearly something is wrong and my point is that the first port of call should be the towbar people who have not anchored the towbar back to the original Fiat chassis. 

More will be revealed when you visit PWS.


----------



## Oscarmax

My Autotrail Cheynne 660 is a very poor design having a very large overhang and chassis extensions (although this is down to cost), I only use my towbar to either tow a Toyota Aygo on an A frame or my mobility scooter on a trailer. 

I would never consider towing a car on a trailer or putting a high nose weight on the towbar. If you are serious about towing you need a Alko chassis.


----------



## eurajohn

Couple of extra points, there is no way any body (or floor) part of a motorhome can or should be treated as structurally strong enough to be used as strengthening for anything, especially a tow bar.

The criteria for the tow bar design and manufacture is as Mrplodd says is to resist linear force, pure linear force push or pull requires surprisingly thin gauge materials but more importantly the up and down motion caused by the road surface, vehicle suspension and most violently by the act of braking the tow vehicle (camper) if the towed vehicle (or trailer) is un braked. this is the "flex" that will cause damage as it is continual and if allowed to occur will eventually cause a fracture, this movement is the one that will cause damage as it effectively changes the linear force to a bending one imagine taking a piece of thin gauge steel or wire and continually bending it back and forth in your hand, you will notice it gets warmer and will eventually break.

I say again that I personally would not want to use a converters fitted chassis extension as a basis for a tow bar, although I'm sure the manufacturer in question will have done their sums before utilising the structure as such.
Bear in mind the reason the converter fitted the extension in the first place was to support the overhang of body beyond the base vehicles chassis rails and is unlikely to go to the added expense of making it structurally sound enough to hang a tow bar on, as already noted when a garage version the converter will specify the maximum weight to load the garage area.

Can't really comment on why they would specify a maximum weight for towing other than to make an owner aware of the likely MPTM of the unit.


----------



## goldi

Afternoon all,


It sounds like the rear end needs reinforcing to me.
I once looked under a brand new motorhome and the rear crossmember had not been fixed at all, I do,nt know how it had come all the way from Germany like that. Yes you read right Germany, so its not just brit vans that can be shoddy.



norm


----------



## Spacerunner

If life throws you a lemon, make a Gin and Tonic !!

Time to break out the gin methinks. :!:


----------



## Rosbotham

Must admit to being a little confused here. From memory, the Max train weight on an unmodified Fiat chassis is approx 5800-5900kg, there or thereabouts. For a 4 tonne van such as the 696, that would leave 1800kg for any trailer. AT's final VIN plate reduces that down to allow only 1050kg Max trailer. If that reduction isn't due to limitations of chassis modifications made by them, what is it due to? And if their instructions are to only use the base Fiat chassis to mount, why would there be any reduction? My assumption had always been the 1050 limit was determined by the strength of the extensions being used to attach to. I never got on my knees under my 696 to check how/where the tow bar was attached.

On the mobility scooter front, the Max permissible weight in the garage is 150kg from memory. I've no idea what the weight of a scooter is, but believe that legally they're limited to 150kg. So alone it couldn't overload the extensions, but there's a lot of space in a 696 garage and plenty of scope to overload.


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

I have an Armitages tow bracket fitted to my Autotrail , apart from the poor paint finish the bar is well constructed and fitted.
I feel the responsibility is on the tow bar fitters. Motorhome manufacturerers adapt an existing chassis to provide a platform for their finished product. They probably do not envisage a majority of owners towing anything at all.
Dave p


----------



## gaspode

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> I feel the responsibility is on the tow bar fitters.


I'm sure you're 100% correct there, the LEGAL responsibility is with whoever supplied/fitted the towbar - end of story.

However, what about the moral responsibility?
Surely any converter (if he's honest) will tell a potential customer when asked about towbars either:

1) No. it's not possible to fit a towbar to this model of M/H.
or
2) Yes, you can fit a towbar under "X" circumstances (and provide full details of "X").

Any other answer would mean they could not fulfill their "duty of care" to their potential customer. To sit on the fence and delegate all responsibility to a third party is not acceptable in my opinion. No doubt if they simply stated answer No.1 they'd lose many sales, maybe they deserve to lose many sales??????


----------



## pomme1

Eurajohn beat me to it! How can PWS suggest that adding any sort of strengthening to the garage floor could resolve the problem? Do they really believe that transferring any part of the load to the body structure is a good idea? If so, I would be giving them a very wide berth!

I have no knowledge of PWS who may be a very professional outfit, but I do wonder how many of these companies supplying and fixing 'A' frames, towbars etc have any real engineering knowledge. I don't mean simply fabrication and fitting experience, but rather the ability to properly analyse loadings, resolve forces, determine section sizes and fixing details and crucially, determine how the resulting forces are fed into the vehicle structure.

I can't believe that anyone with that experience would have come up with a solution such as that employed on Mr Plodd's 'van.

Roger


----------



## j50jwr

*Rosbotham*

The Fiat towed weight limit is set, as you say, to the gross train weight minus the gross laden weight of the van. When the convertors fit a shed on the back that overhangs the rear of the Fiat chassis, the towing weight is reduced by an amount that acknowledges the fact that whatever is fitted to the Fiat chassis to reach the tow ball will increase the leverage on the chassis or tyres. Or to put it another way, from the strength point of view. If a normal Fiat tow bar has the ball 30cm behind the rear of the chassis, then a motor van tow bar with the ball 120cm behind could be expected to have 25% of the loading. Or from the stability point of view. If the standard tow ball is 1m behind the centre of the rear wheel, and the Motor van ball is 2m then the allowed rating is reduced by 50%.

When I fitted a German made, EC type approved, to my Rapido a few years ago, I was told that under no circumstances should the tow bar be braced to the overhanging van floor.

Regards John


----------



## Rosbotham

Thanks John. What you say makes sense, however;

1) The turning forces you describe arise from the noseweight on the towball (ie vertical), not the "drag" that will be broadly perpendicular (ie horizontal). It's a towing limit imposed by AT, not a noseweight. Towing forces will impose differential load on the front/back wheels, but only to the extent that the towball isn't in the same horizontal plane as the axles.

2) AT put the same towing limit on 5 tonne tag axle vans as they do 4 tonne single-rear axle vans. It seems curious that the turning forces/overhangs would be the same on these.

3) I've had two vans in my time. One was an Elddis 140, the other the 696. The manufacturer websites are less than informative, but I wouldn't have thought there was much difference in the overhang. The AT 696 imposed the limited max towing weight, while the Elddis 140 was good for up to Fiat's limit, indeed Elddis didn't modify the original VIN. If it was about overhang, you'd expect a modicum of consistency.

As I say, I've no idea, I never looked under my 696 to check how the towbar attached.

Back to MrPlodd, if there's the degree of flexing described, have you tried putting a bit of weight in the extreme corner of the garage (stand on it!), is the whole thing flexing? Seems to me there's an issue with the extensions because if the towbar will move & it's fastened to the chassis extensions, well it's only an extended bit of these about a foot further back than the garage itself. That's not to say it isn't the towbar which has caused these extensions to work loose/flex....


----------



## Spiritofherald

I am alarmed at the suggestion the garage floor should be relied on to strengthen the chassis or towbar!! As other have already implied but perhaps not said expicitly, the chassis should support the body, not the other way around - that solution is likely to lead to catastrophic failure of the body and chassis!


----------



## peribro

My experience of PWS is that they are a very professional company and that David is extremely knowledgeable about his subject. It will certainly be interesting to hear his views once he has checked the van over.


----------



## Mrplodd

Thanks everyone for yor various inputs. 

I started this thread as I had identified what I considered to be an "issue" with my towbar.

I accept what others have said but I still feel that AT are simply trying to slope shoulders over the matter.

1. THEY supplied the vehicle in its "final form" inc chassis extensions
2. THEY have stipulated a max trailer weight of 1050Kg
3. The original Fiat plate gives a max trailer weight of over 2000kg
4. Autotrail obviously feel that the original trailer weight is too high for the vehicle THEY have made and sell so have therefore deemed it necessary to reduced the trailers MAM.
5. What Autotrtail have NOT done (and still dont) is identify in any of their literature that if a towbar is fitted to the vehicle they have manufactured and are selling FURTHER STRENGTHENING is required if a towbar is to used and that the vehicle, as supplied, (appears) to be NOT FIT FOR THE PURPOSE of towing a trailer EVEN THOUGH they stipulate a max weight for any trailer being towed.

Now in my view any reasonable person (i.e. YOU) would look at that and say something along the lines of

"Autotrail have decreased, from the base vehicles original (Fiat) spec, the max weight of any trailer that can be towed behind it, This is probably because of the large overhang and chassis extension they (Autotrail) have fitted. Therefore they are happy with a towbar being fitted to what is currently there PROVIDING the maximum trailer weight does not exceed 1050Kg"

Which, I would submit is a fairly reasonable assumption. If you buy a car and it says the max trailer weight is "X" Kg do you then ask the manufacturer if you have to add any strengthening before youi fit a towbar?? :roll: 

I understand from PWS that Autotrail (who use them almost exclusivly for tow bar fitting) have supplied them with highly detailed instructions concerning tow bar fitment as in exactly which holes in the extensions to use, which size bolts and nuts to use and what torque setting should be used to tighten them. but there is NO mention of additional metalwaork being required. Which would suggest to me that they (Autotrail) consider THEIR chassis extensions to be up to the task of dealing with a trailer not exceeding 1050Kg being attached to a towbar THEY endorse !! But itb would seem thats not the case wouldnt it??

I wonder how many AT owners are towing trailers much heavier than mine and are blissfully unaware of what their towbar is doing??

I hope to get the MH to PWS on 1st December and I will then report back. 

I have also emailed Autotrail again asking for clarification of EXACTLY what the Fiat towbar fitting instructions are, seeing as how they are keen to say thats what should be complied with. (Even though, in my view AT are the responsible company as they have modified the original Fiat chasis in the first place) 

I suspect I may have opened up a BIG can of worms here !!! I may have to have a chat with VOSA to see what they have to say about my vehicle being "Fit for purpose"

Anyone want to buy a Smart car and trailer??


----------



## rayrecrok

Hmm

Thanks for that but I totally disagree with it..

There must be loads of the same model and build of your motorhome all with tow bars correctly installed and having no issues at all.. Just like you would be experiencing if the tow bar had been fitted to the existing chassis..

I still think you are aiming at the wrong people, if the motorhome manufacturer decided to not supply any information that is relevant to the installation, that is their prerogative, and if they feel that the only information they should provide is the one that their calculations are airing on the safe side of not altering the telemetry of the vehicle, I would be satisfied that is enough..

The ways of fitting tow bars to a vehicle with a chassis is casting the net so wide that it would be impractical to specify as probably every tow bar fitter would come up with a different scenario on how it should be fitted. Your tow bar fitter unfortunately came up with a scenario that was found wanting.

ray.


----------



## j50jwr

*Point taken but--*

Hi There, I take your point and agree that safe nose weight is directly affected by distance from the real chassis, and I don't want to prolong this, but the weight of the trailer also influences the sideways load on the van which is increased by leverage, the further away the pivot point (Ball) from the vans contact points on the road. We all know the effect on cars of the side forces of trailers. The Convertors, in setting
an authorised towed weight have to assume the worst case senario, in trailer stability.

John


----------



## fastanlite

So many different views and comments on this post, but I think MrPlodds last post hits the problem squarely, if AT specify to the tow bar manufacterers how to fit tow bars to their vehicles then the fitters have no option but to comply with this specification by AT, or they could be facing a law suit, in the event of any damage or accident caused by the tow bar
So it seems to me that AT are responsible for any consequences resulting in the fitting of towbars where these are fitted in accordance with their specifications.
It would however take Solomon or a reasonably clever lawyer to get them to admit this.


----------



## rayrecrok

fastanlite said:


> So many different views and comments on this post, but I think MrPlodds last post hits the problem squarely, if AT specify to the tow bar manufacterers how to fit tow bars to their vehicles then the fitters have no option but to comply with this specification by AT, or they could be facing a law suit, in the event of any damage or accident caused by the tow bar
> So it seems to me that AT are responsible for any consequences resulting in the fitting of towbars where these are fitted in accordance with their specifications.
> It would however take Solomon or a reasonably clever lawyer to get them to admit this.


Hi.

Or to put it another way, every after market article that could be put on a motorhome the manufacturer has to specify the way it has to be installed..

I suppose the extra cost involved with all this, will have to go on the cost of the van to be shared out among everybody when they pay more for the motor home, or they could turn round and say no after market article can be fitted on vans.. Either scenario is bonkers and of course a non starter..

Or let the market forces sort it out for themselves, as tow bars have been successfully installed on thousands of motorhome including this make and model through out the world, this is the first time I have heard of a problem of this magnitude, so common sense says, is it the motorhome manufacturer or the installer, if it was the manufacturer and particularly this model and make of this brand of motor home we would be hearing about this kind of problem all the time.

So there is only one more reason for this particular scenario and the reason might be?..

ray.


----------



## sideways

The way things are going there will soon be no aftermarket fitting of anything, it will be standard fit or not at all. Health and safety and other legislations being forced on us all the time is getting(got) out of hand.


----------



## sweetie

To my last motorhome a Burstner Solano I had a towbar fitted by the supplying dealer as part of the deal and this was fitted to the chassis extensions which I did not think was up to the job.
When I took it into a firm close to me to have other work done that also manufacture towbars to fit specific vehicles he could not believe that anyone would fix a towbar to just chassis extensions. He said he would only make one to fix from the original fiat chassis and did not recommend towing a car the way it was fixed.
Needless to say the towbar was never used to tow the micra that I already only a smaller trailer.


----------



## Rosbotham

My own view is we should probably hold off drawing conclusions until PWS have taken a look at it. They clearly aren't amateurs. The outcome of that could be fascinating.

I'm reasonably certain mine mounted onto the extensions and suffered no flex, but short of going looking at the dealers where it's for sale I won't know.

My previous van...which had no reduction in towing limit vs the base Peugeot chassis numbers...had no suitable extensions hence the towbar mounted directly onto the base chassis. However the _quid pro quo_ of that was it weighed a hell of a lot and had limited noseweight capability because of the leverage onto the mounting bolts.

My mental bet-with-self is that when they take a look, they'll find a fault on the fitment of the chassis extensions to the chassis, which may or may not be down to the towbar. It could, for example, be that the garage has been overloaded and the only relationship to the towbar is that's how MrPlodd noticed what was going on.

And I'd totally agree with MrP's last comments.


----------



## Mrplodd

Further update !!

My email to AT

_Thanks for that. are you saying that the chassis rail extensions fitted by Autotrail, the ones that fit INSIDE the original chassis and then run rearwards, are not meant to have a tow bar fitted??

Your publicity for the vehicle only mentions a maximum trailer weight, there is no mention of any requirement for further strengthening being required. The Tow bar I have fitted to this vehicle is one manufactured by PWS of Poole who as I understand it are the manufacturer recommended by most (if not all) motorhome manufacturers including yourselves) It is a very substantial item.

My concerns are that the chassis rail extensions fitted by yourselves are flexing a considerable amount. is this normal??

Can you please therefore confirm as the vehicle manufacturer, what, if any, additional strengthening is required ?_

Their response !!

_Yes you are correct our extensions bolt inside the end of the Fiat
chassis and run to the rear of the vehicle. We do not claim that these extensions are in any way suitable to bolt a tow bar straight to. It is up to the tow bar supplier/fitter to ensure that these extensions are suitably strengthened to be fit for the purpose. I have see many variations of this. Some tow bar suppliers add an extra channel section inside our extensions or an angle section down the outside of our extensions. If the tow bar you have does not have any extra strengthening fitted to our extensions then the supplier must be confident that they are ok as they are.

We do mention trailer weight however this weight is simply calculated in accordance with Fiats recommendation which is based on the overhang past the rear axle. This needs to be done as the original Fiat towing weight is based on the donor vehicle. The donor vehicle is obviously much shorter.

I am not sure whether the flex is normal you will need to get the tow bar supplier to look at this.

Again you will need to speak to the tow bar supplier to see if any extra strengthening needs to be added._

Now am I being unreasonable in thinking AT should make customers aware that although they clearly give a maximum trailer weight they make no mention ANYWHERE that the vehicle, as supplied by them, with a recommended max trailer weight, is NOT strong enough for the job of towing such a trailer??

I fully accept that I am probably going to have to spend money getting the rear extensions "beefed up" but I do feel a tad aggrieved that there is NOWHERE I could get that information prior to purchasing said MH (it was purchased second hand so I have no idea what went on when the towbar was fitted by the previous owner)

Next stop PWS on 1st December to see what they have to say about it all. I suppose its POISSIBLE that the previous owner just bought the towbar from PWS and then had soemone else fit it)


----------



## Mike48

I don't find ATs response to be unreasonable; in fact it seems to me to be very helpful. 

A towbar manufacturer should be able to judge whether any additional strengthening is required and clearly in your case somebody have failed to ensure the chassis extensions are up to the job.


----------



## Enock

Sounds like a minefield..... Glad I decided to design and fabricate my own....

It's like the forth bridge....built to last 8)


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

After following this thread I have had a good look at my AT cheyenne tow bar. It is plated with a towing weight of 1250kg. It has a securing bolt through the end of the original chassis and is beefed up on the extensions. i have only towed a trailer with a motor cycle on it. Manufactured and fit by Armitages. The only thing that is poor about the job is teh painting of the towbar.

Dave p


----------



## Enock

Regarding painting...... Try a product called POR-15....it's as tough as old boots..... After using this stuff, I'll never use Hammerite again...


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

Thanks Enock. I sell paints :wink: 

Dave p


----------



## Bill_H

Mrplodd said:


> Now am I being unreasonable in thinking AT should make customers aware that although they clearly give a maximum trailer weight they make no mention ANYWHERE that the vehicle, as supplied by them, with a recommended max trailer weight, is NOT strong enough for the job of towing such a trailer??


I don't think AT are being unreasonable, I can't see why they should make provision for something they don't fit as standard or an extra.
If they didn't quote a maximum towing weight and you damaged the vehicle by trying to pull a sherman tank across a field, I doubt they would compensate you for the damage. As posted by someone else, if they had to quote a specification for every concievable extra on the market on the off-chance an owner may wish to fit it, I think your owner's manual may be rather too heavy to carry.

My towbar / Hope Safe-T bar is connected directly to the original Fiat chassis, and extends the six feet to the van's rear, and has a roughened upper surface for standing on (All 93kg of me) and has a vertical load capacity of 200kg across the whole width of my van - strong and rigid enough to hang a small motorbike directly from it.


----------



## Enock

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> Thanks Enock. I sell paints :wink:
> 
> Dave p


 

Do you sell POR-15 by any chance??


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

Enock said:


> DTPCHEMICALS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Enock. I sell paints :wink:
> 
> Dave p
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you sell POR-15 by any chance??
Click to expand...

No Sorry

dave p


----------



## Oscarmax

I have seen many professional towbars fitted directly too the AT chassis extensions, visually to the untrained eye they look very substantial and robust, but are quite the reverse, adding unnecessary weight and load upon the chassis rails.

I also noticed/concerned about the poor quality of the wiring leaving a lot to be desired ?


----------



## Mrplodd

Just had a phone call from Steve at Autotrail technical help, and very helpful and informative it was !

Firstly I would like to correct an error on one of my previous posts.

_PWS do not fit towbars *FOR* Autotrail, they fit towbars *TO* Autotrail motorhomes for customers. A small but very vital difference that I am very happy to clarify_

Following my chat with Steve (who is a mine of useful information!) I now have a better understanding of the whole situation in respect of my towbar.

It may well be that the towbar was manufactured by PWS but was fitted by a third party which could explain the lack of ( clearly necessary) reinforcement to the Autotrail chassis extensions.

I might just write to the previous owner to see if I can get an indication of who actually fitted the thing in the first place!!

I will be discussing the matter with Dave at PWS, hopefully on 1st December and will post the results of that conversation together with any advice he offers in respect of beefing up my vehicle.


----------



## Jean-Luc

Just dropped into this thread for the first time but the following observation comes to mind.

Do UK motorhome manufacturers go through the homologation process for their products and have extras like towbars listed as homologated options. Or is the process not required at all.

I came across this process when ordering a new FIAT base Rapido and being told that alloy wheels and other items not on the options list could not be supplied as they were not an homologated option.


----------



## Mrplodd

jean Luc

As I understand it the situation now is anything fitted BY THE MANUFACTURER has to be type approved/homologated (such as towbars etc  ) 

If its fitted by a dealer or owner once it has left the manufacturer then it doesnt. (but I could be wrong of course!)


----------



## Jean-Luc

Mrplodd said:


> jean Luc
> 
> As I understand it the situation now is anything fitted BY THE MANUFACTURER has to be type approved/homologated (such as towbars etc  )
> 
> If its fitted by a dealer or owner once it has left the manufacturer then it doesnt. (but I could be wrong of course!)


I think that's the position all right.

It begs the question, should we only fit towbars etc, which have type approval from the manufacturer or where the manufacturer provides approved fixing points under the Construction and Use Regulations.


----------



## Mike48

I think it depends if your van is type approved. If not there is no need for a type approved towbar. 

Manufacturers had the option to type approve their vans from 2009 but type approval became mandatory in 2011.


----------



## airstream

*Date?*

Hi
The law on towbars and motorhomes has changed. Any towbar fitted to a motorhome first regsitered on or after April 1, 2012 must be EC type approved for use on that vehicle.

Ray


----------



## camoyboy

Just to add my towbar experience. We ordered our Rapido in 2008 with the upgraded 4.25 tonne chassis and factory fitted tow bar. We were advised this was required to maintain our warranty on the Al-Ko chassis. When the MH arrived I looked at the tow bar installation and thought it looked a bit on the flimsy side but foolishly assumed, as we explained we towed with an A frame, all would be OK. 
A closer inspection showed the towball had 15mm movement side to side as there was no diagonal bracing. Also the gauge of the material used appeared a bit on the light side.
After a few calls to the dealer and Rapido I was told the towbar fitted was suitable to tow a camping trailer up to 250kgs max!!
I then had to fight to get the towbar removed so that I could get a suitable one fitted. Eventually the dealer removed it at his cost and agreed to pay for PWS to fit a suitable replacement.
We spent a day at PWS where boss David Spreadbury personally worked on building a towbar that both he and I were happy with. I found the standard of his work and his desire to make sure I was fully satisfied were second to none ( and I am a difficult bloke to please!!)
He stayed late to finish the job so i did not need to stay another night, and re-routed the wiring to prevent water ingress.
I would find it hard to believe David would fit a towbar that was in any way unsafe or not fit for purpose. He did have towbar kits for various MH's that could be bought "off the shelf", perhaps the OP had one of these fitted by a third party.
Colin


----------



## airstream

*Not for long*

Hi,
Just for those who may think otherwise and want a diy tow bar for the "new" van

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/8918960/ccmaprtech.pdf

Keep the old one

Ray


----------



## davidjlambert

Hi

I've just been reading this thread with a high degree of trepidation.

We have just bought our first motorhome and it's a 2008 696g!

It has a tow bar fitted which I understand was made and fitted by the previous owner who incidentally has his own engineering company.

The arrangement certainly looks very robust but I haven't checked in detail how it connects to the 'chassis'.

My primary concern is that the tow bracket is very heavy and I am assuming that the payload of the garage (150kg as previously mentioned) would be reduced by the weight of the bracket. I imagine the bracket could be of the order of 100kg.

Am I being naive in making this assumption?

I say this as our intention was to transport a light 125cc motorcycle in the garage. The bike weighing some 112kg.

The layout of the 696 matched virtually all of our desires and it is going to be singularly disappointing if our plans are going up in smoke.

If we hadn't things on for the 1st Dec then I would also have been prepared to have met up at PWS to learn of their deliberations.

We will be very interested to hear the results.

In the meantime I would be grateful for any comments and/or advice from other 696g owners before we embark on our first outing, with or without bike!

As an aside, we are thinking of fitting a tv in the rear bedroom. The plastic panel which I assume is for fitting a tv looks rather flimsy and I'd be interested how others have fitted a mounting without drilling through into the shower enclosure!

Thanks

David


----------



## VanFlair

Hi David

I would think that the 150 kg limit would be for the garage floor and the 100 kg or whatever for the tow bar would not affect this BUT would of course affect your individual axle weights together with the bike when it is in the garage.

Martin


----------



## Mrplodd

David

I have sent you a PM with my phone number. If you give me a call I would be happy to duiscuss the issue with you. Its muich easier than keep posting on here !!

Andy


----------



## Broom

Hi All

Not read all the topic, but as we never use them I removed the corner steadies and bracketry to assist in keeping the weight down on the back-end when towing.

My back axle weighs 2750kg when fully loaded, not much room for anything else.

Would think the overloading of the back end is more crucial than overloading the garage part, load it up and get it weighed.

Best Regards
Broom


----------



## Mrplodd

*I had*

Thanks I would never have thought of doing that :roll: :roll: :roll:


----------



## Oscarmax

Hi,

Autotrail Cheyenne 660 2008 2.3 on 4005 kg Maxi chassis, fully loaded ready to go inc water and mobility scooter.

Front axle 1580 kg
Rear axle 2300 kg

If your rear axle is 2750 kg and you are running a maxi chassis, that only leaves you 1255 kg for the front axle.


----------



## Rosbotham

Broom said:


> My back axle weighs 2750kg when fully loaded, not much room for anything else.
> 
> Would think the overloading of the back end is more crucial than overloading the garage part, load it up and get it weighed.
> 
> Best Regards
> Broom


Wow, what are you putting in it? Looking at my old weighbridge outputs, with van loaded but no water and driver only (& passenger would in broad terms only add to front axle loading), my back axle loading was 2190kg, and that's with a towbar....


----------



## Oscarmax

Fiat offical axle maximum weights

Front Axle 2100 kg

Rear Axle 2440 kg

2750 kg is 310 kg overweight on a Maxi chassis/tyres ?


----------



## Broom

Sorry All

Made an error the 7 is a 2, badly written back axle is 2250kg sorry    front axle is 1580kg total 3830kg 

Best Regards
Broom


----------



## Mrplodd

Back to the original subject :roll: 

Just been and seen Dave at PWS in Poole (the supplier and fitter of said towbar) What a thoroughly down to earth, hands on, and nice chap he is too. He is baffled that this is the only case he has come across but agrees with me that something certainly IS flexing and it shouldn't!!!

Turns out that following my original contact with him and Autotrail the pair of them have been in lengthy conversation! even to the point that Autotrail have supplied Dave with an entire chassis extension fabrication that they fit so he can see exactly what is what! 

BOY what a very substantial bit of fabrication that is!! A mixture of 4 & 6mm multi-folded welded and braced galvanised steel. Dave and I cannot see any way THAT is going to flex !!! 

Dave also showed me the very detailed drawings he had been supplied with by Autotrail and his towbar has been fitted exactly in accordance with those (well as he is the premier towbar chap for MH's it would be wouldn't it??)

Interestingly it has been suggested that the Fiat chassis, where the Autotrail extension slots in (by about 400mm) itself might be flexing   My particular vehicle is one of the very first X250 based Autotrails and shortly after mine was produced Fiat increased the overall cross section of the chassis rails where the extensions slide in. I wonder why?? 

Anyway bottom line is that Dave wants the vehicle back for about a week so he can have it in his workshop for a a very thorough investigation and see if he can come up with a fix, such as further bracing where the extension fits into the chassis rail That is probably going to happen in mid January when I dont need the MH. 

So I am really no further forward other than to say that it would appear I certainly DO have an "issue" and that both Autotrail and PWS are on the case and seeking a satisfactory resolution !!

I did find an identical vehicle (696G) thats a year newer at a local dealers. that has the later and beefier chassis and the towbar on that simply doesnt move at all, so maybe my earlier chassis simply isnt up to the job  . 

Now as I purchased the MH because it had a towbar fitted and I intended to tow a smart car and trailer with it I wonder what the position will be if it turns out the vehicle cant do the job it was bought for?? Interesting question isnt it??

Anyway as I said the matter certainly hasnt yet been resolved but I am now a fair bit further on.

I will post further information as and when I get any. 

In the meantime if anyone has an 07 plate Autotrail Cheyenne 696G Or I suppose any other of the range that has a long rear overhang you might just want to check if YOUR towbar moves. Mine has about 6-8mm of movement up and down. I am very confidant that nothing is going to fail and my trailer drop off BUT if the garage floor is flexing (and trust me it certainly IS) what collateral damage might that be causing elsewhere (like where the floor meets the rear panel???

Watch this space.


----------



## Mrplodd

(Semi) Update of sorts.

Having had a further (very detailed) look at my vehicle I now find that the garage floor and the rear panel of the MH are actually parting company in places  !! AND there is damp present in the rear wall above the chequer plate that rises about 300mm from the garage floor 8O water is clearly getting in where they are parting.

Since my last post I have also been seeking out other Autotrail MH's of all sorts, based on the X250 base, to compare them.

The one common factor is that on *every other one I can find* the rear Fiat chassis rails (where the common to all models, humungeous Autotrail extensions slot in) are at LEAST twice the cross sectional area of mine  So I am starting to think that as the Autotrail extensions appear to be identical on all models the ONLY difference is in the base vehicles chassis construction, AND as the later versions of my MH clearly DONT suffer from the towbar moving it doesnt take too much reasoning to figure out what my problem might be now does it??

The much smaller chassis cross section was something Dave Spreadbury at PWS pointed out to me during my visit of 1st December.

The vehicle is going back to him at Poole on 5th January for a week so they can have a close and detailed look at what (if anything :? ) can be done. I have to say I am now none to confident that there is ANY solution as it appears the problem may lie in the construction of the underlying base vehicle. Ooo-eer missus

I could be having a very interesting discussion with the supplying dealer in the near future about "Fit for purpose" :wink:

Watch this space for further updates

(edit)

I would just like to reiterate that mine is an '07 plate vehicle and, it would appear, one of the very first of this model produced on the X250 base. It would also appear that very shortly AFTER mine was made the underlying vehicles rear chassis sections were greatly increased. Mine are about 10cm deep and the later models are about 20cm deep. (There was probably a good reason for this increase, and I suspect I have discovered it)


----------



## Mrplodd

The saga continues !!

I have now got my MH back from the engineers. Its like the Forth railway bridge underneath now. Huge amounts of steel have been added and its NO BETTER !!!

I have advised the dealer I purchased it from and have now provided them with pictures and even a video showing the flexing. 

They have acknowledged my communcation and will, I suspect, be having a long, intense, and VERY interesting chat with Autotrail's technical dept (possibly with the involvement of Fiat as well).

None of the newer (larger chassis equipped) Autotrails that I have found have ANY movement of the towbar. Yet mine, with half the Forth rail bridge of EXTRA steel still does !!

ONLY difference between the vehicles is the cross sectional area of the chassis. Not rocket science to work out where the problem lies is it ???

So to anyone thinking of buying an erarly X250 based AT my advice is to have a look at the chassis just behind the rear wheels, if you can see a gap (of about 6 inches) above the chassis rail WALK AWAY and find one with the deeper chassis. the difference is something like 2 inches deep on mine and 8 inches on the ones that dont bend !!!

Watch this post for further developments !!


----------



## Hawcara

Hi Mr Plodd,
In your last post you said you had your van back from the engineers and it is no better. Is that from PWS? Did they not fix it then or give an explanation why it is no better?


----------



## bigtwin

Hawcara said:


> Hi Mr Plodd,
> In your last post you said you had your van back from the engineers and it is no better. Is that from PWS? Did they not fix it then or give an explanation why it is no better?


Your answer is here:



Mrplodd said:


> The one common factor is that on *every other one I can find* the rear Fiat chassis rails (where the common to all models, humungeous Autotrail extensions slot in) are at LEAST twice the cross sectional area of mine  So I am starting to think that as the Autotrail extensions appear to be identical on all models the ONLY difference is in the base vehicles chassis construction, AND as the later versions of my MH clearly DONT suffer from the towbar moving it doesnt take too much reasoning to figure out what my problem might be now does it??
> 
> The much smaller chassis cross section was something Dave Spreadbury at PWS pointed out to me during my visit of 1st December.


 ...... and it would seem that it is a Fiat base vehicle issue.


----------



## Mrplodd

Bigtwin

Spot on !!!

My vehicle is going back to the dealers at the end of the week, firstly to have the delaminating floor repaired (pretty common problem on Cheyenne's as there are huge sections of the floor that are unsupported, and secondly so they can have a look at the wobbly towbar issue themselves!!

Having said that we are now in the early stages of negotiations of where we are all going to go from here as they now seem to have got the idea that the "issue" with my particular vehicle is one that simply cannot be fixed. I really dont want to say any more at this time as I dont want to jeopardise anything, but I think we will be coming to a "mutually agreeable" solution in the not too distant future. 

My view firmly remains that there is a BIG question mark over the strength of the Fiat chassis cab that its built on! PWS have installed a large amount of steel (probably 40kg's worth) and the issue is still present. As I said in my previous post even with all this extra metalwork things are still moving! The later (and MUCH larger cross section equipped) chassis dont suffer from problem that I have. 

So the only logical explanation that I can see is that "someone??" at "some point" realised that the small cross sectioned chassis (as fitted to my vehicle) was not strong enough to support a large MH, and they then upped the chassis cross section (by about 300% !! ) The problems I am having are certainly not present on these later (beefier) chassis.

I am more than happy to be proved wrong on my assumption but by a process of elimination I am pretty confidant I am not too far from the truth.

AT have not been particularly helpful as they, quite rightly, point out "They dont fit towbars" (Even though they DID quote in their literature the maximum trailer weight that could be towed. (I dont think they quote any figures for trailer weights in their latest literature. Coincidence??) 

So IF you are thinking of buying an EARLY X250 based MH of ANY make I would suggest you look at it VERY carefully and satisfy yourself that it has the later(much larger) chassis. (My previous post explains what exactly to look for.)

If anyone would like any more information please PM me.


----------



## Mrplodd

Result at last !!!!

The dealer has done a deal, taken mine back and exchanged it (with me parting with a bit of money, but not too much) for a 3 litre identical model thats a year newer and has the thicker chassis. the towbar on this one is as solid as a rock YIPEEEE !!! 

All credit to the dealership !!


----------



## dalspa

Mrplodd - pleased that you have, at long last, got a satisfactory result. Been following this thread from the begining. Can you clarify what it is to look out for on the early (mines a 2007 x250 chasis) - I can't work out what you were describing in your previous recent post. Is it that, behind the rear wheel, your chasis was 2inches deep with a 6inch gap(?) and should be 8inches. When I bought mine it had a towbar on and I took it off (in the shed) as I didn't need it so never looked to see if any flexing.
DavidL


----------



## peribro

Good result and well done for your perseverance. Also credit to the dealer. I wonder if Autotrail chipped in?


----------



## camallison

Mrplodd said:


> Result at last !!!!
> 
> The dealer has done a deal, taken mine back and exchanged it (with me parting with a bit of money, but not too much) for a 3 litre identical model thats a year newer and has the thicker chassis. the towbar on this one is as solid as a rock YIPEEEE !!!
> 
> All credit to the dealership !!


Just to even up the score, and since there always seem to be many posts knocking dealers, would it be possible to identify the dealer? He should come in for praise as you say.

Colin


----------



## Gary1944

Result Mr Plodd, just shows what can be done with persistence. Really pleased for you. Hope they took the towbar off your old one!!

Gary.


----------



## Mrplodd

Dalspa

If you are not going to tow then I wouldnt worry !!!

The easiest way to identify if youy have the less robust chassis is to look at the chassis through the gap between the rear wheel and the wheel arch. If you can see the chassis rail with fresh air above it you have the older (and less rigid) chassis, if you cannot see fresh air then you have the later type. 

I also think the newer chassis vehicles have all LED lights inside. (but I could be wrong on that) 

The dealers in question are Freeborn Motorhomes based in Godalming.

Initially I did think I was going to have a real battle on my hands but, in fairness to them as soon as they found out I was not "trying it on" with them they acted in a VERY fair, reasonable, and professional manner, they sorted the matter out to everyones satisfaction, the end result is a very happy customer (me!) who is happy to sing their praises on here!!


----------

