# Gas Attacks.......Again????????? Oh no!



## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

There is a report in the Daily Mail today of a 67 year old British pensioner shot by an armed gang on his pool terrace at 10.30am and robbed.

Interstingly, further down the article the Daly Mail reports:-

"Violent gangs have been terrorising expatriate homeowners further north near Alicante for several months. Dozens of foreign residents have been gassed in their sleep, comng round to discover their homes ransacked and their valuables missing."

Obviously, there are some people who believe it happens!


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## 89079 (May 13, 2005)

Gasp!
The Daily Mail!

It must be true then. 

---
Steven


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Lets look at those statements

Violent Gangs, but they gently keep you asleep with gas, anyone else see the contradiction?

also a good kicking is actually less likely to kill you than being anaesthetised by crooks, but eh dont let facts get in the way of a space filling article.

Quote

Obviously, there are some people who believe it happens!

End quote

Only by the extremely gullible. All the Facts and evidence say its not possible.


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Lets look at those statements
> 
> Violent Gangs, but they gently keep you asleep with gas, anyone else see the contradiction?


But God help you if you wake up



> also a good kicking is actually less likely to kill you than being anaesthetised by crooks, but eh dont let facts get in the way of a space filling article.


Not sure about the kicking. The published results of some kickings lead me to believe that I may be better off dead.
Space filling article?
The article was actually about the Briton being shot and ran to a quarter of a page of which the reference to gas was about 9 lines in one column.


> Obviously, there are some people who believe it happens!





George Telford said:


> Only by the extremely gullible. All the Facts and evidence say its not possible.


Until there is irrefutable evidence it seems to me that there are really only two camps and one has to choose which to be in.
One camp takes the view that there is no evidence that gassing ever happens so ignore it.
The other camp believes that as there is no evidence they can believe in which says it cannot happen then the prudent thing to do is to take precautions for detection in case it does.

Got my devil's advocate hat on.


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## 88847 (May 9, 2005)

hi all

Cant believe this has started up again

What we need is *actual Proof*............... and a person to confirm it, so that all of us can either buy gas alarms or put our minds at rest

No more hearsay............................

Paul


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## zulurita (May 9, 2005)

Well we bought and fitted a gas alarm just in case although we don't see how they can do it!!!


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Gillian

Quote

One camp takes the view that there is no evidence that gassing ever happens so ignore it. 
The other camp believes that as there is no evidence they can believe in which says it cannot happen then the prudent thing to do is to take precautions for detection in case it does. 

End quote

Its not just that there is no evidence of it happening (there cannot be evidence of a NON event)

Its more that all the evidence says its not possible, ie all the actual evidence says its impossible 

1. there would be deaths ask any anaesthetist
2. The gas would cause explosions and fire most cases are in wild camping fridge pilot light ! In theatre when gas is used they need extreme precaution to prevent.
3. No Physical evidence, it would be in the soft furnishings and blood stream
4. why are they allowed to drive on ask at hospital if you can drive home after an op involving gas anaesthetic.
5. anaesthetic gases are choking gagging agents this alone would wake you up no need for an alarm.
6 Superpowers cannot do it in an hostage situation, but some scrotes in France can.

It does not and has not happened.


Look if you have bought an alarm and it makes you feel better great, but dont try to Justify the purchase.


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## 88847 (May 9, 2005)

Hi zulrita

If you dont see how it can happen...................WHY did you buy an alarm :lol: 

Paul


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Rita

Thats a healthy outlook, after all having one cannot hurt.

Its this blind promotion of it as an actual possibility that bugs me, every scrap of evidence says Impossible


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## Drummer (May 9, 2005)

I eat a lot of beans.
Does this qualify? :wink:


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

8O I too am sceptical of, though been told about personal gas attacks (insurance job maybe?). I am aware though of a case in Spain of a couple being held by a gang. The wife was held to ransom whilst the Husband was taken to the Bank until all their money had been drawn out. After which. They were killed. 8O


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## 88847 (May 9, 2005)

J...S...W

Real scary stuff, but so isolated...............if we look at all the crime and grief that happens in and around our daily lives and worried about it then we would all stick our heads in the oven

Speaking from experience

Paul


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Hi RedOne. I just posted information as I see it. I don't let these reports worry me. I am in my 5th year of Full-Timing, 99.99999999% of it Wild-Camping. Yes, we have been robbed (bicycles twice, once in Spain, once here in the UK - did not claim insurance). We have not been attacked and although we have been tormented on occasion by youths, we carry on as if nothing had happened, living the way we wish to live. :wink:


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## 88734 (May 9, 2005)

I can't see what the big deal is. It may happen it may not. No one has been killed and people get robbed all the time. Far worse things than being gassed have happened to others and myself but life goes on. We live to sheltered a life in this country and worry about small things. Just get on with life and enjoy it. Get out there and see the world from behind your steering wheel and not from behind a computer screen. And as for self builders finish the van don't just write about it!


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## 88847 (May 9, 2005)

This is off the beaten track if a moderator wants to move it, forgot where i was

Hi J S W 

Glad to hear you are enjoying it all

Full timing...........can you explain, 

1 how do you have the internet connection
2 Do you come back and forth to the uk, or are you in europe most of the time
3 Have you ever done costings of full timing
4 how do you pass your time
5 do you stay in places long term or travel

Loads of questions wont harrass you 

Paul


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Hi RedOne. We usually spend 6 months or more in Europe, mainly Spain. When we are mobile we use a Mobile phone for access to emails and sometimes our friends computer for other access (We sometimes housesit for them to allow them to visit the UK). We are usually back here in the UK in July (not this year - another story). We keep a record of all we spend, both here and in Europe (If I told you how much we spend you wouldn't believe it). We pass out time riding our Mountain bikes for sight-seeing, shopping and visiting friends. We used to play Tennis, but most of the courts we played have gone or not acessable anymore. I play the guitar and we have a sing song (We used to do Karaoke for a living at one time). Sandy knits. I sometimes program computers. I fly Model Aeroplanes. Sunbathing. Walking. Going out for meals. I help friends to set up for emails and Internet access. Set up the Satellites for them, video recorders etc, etc. (get the picture). We sometime stay in one place for as long as we can (usually we find somewhere nice, only to be joined by lot's of other's, so we move on). We also stay at friends (In Spain, Holland and Germany, sometimes, as I mentioned housesitting, doggy and cat sitting (for which we accept no payment, although they do tend to Wine & Dine us). People ask us don't we get bored? How can we possibly get bored? 

Maybe this post should be moved over to the Travel Section?


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

Red0ne said:


> hi all
> 
> Cant believe this has started up again
> 
> Paul


Remember we lost all the previous posts and whether you believe it or not this is an important topic.
On that basis I believe that I was justified in starting it again. It will then be there for reference for anyone joining the site who brings up the question of gas attacks.


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## 88847 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Autostratus

I agree this is a very very very important post...........so lets get it right for those who will read it in the future, and not put doubt/fear into the minds of the newest members with lots of speculation that they may or may not get gassed

The truth is all we want to hear

So before we post something that is not factual, maybe it should be research more, so we can tell other members the benefits of our information

This is no way way at dig at you gillian, but an opinion of mine

Paul


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

I'm sorry but for me the jury is still out.
All the arguements should be aired and be there for each and everyone to decide whether they believe it or not


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## 88734 (May 9, 2005)

If I wanted to gas someone, one way would use a hosepipe from a car without a catalytic converter. I know if it was left in the van for two long it would kill the occupants but over the correct amount of time it would make them pass out. My farther tried this and was found unconscious.


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## 88847 (May 9, 2005)

Hi gillian

Sorry, but i could not live my life on those beliefs

"believe it or not".................

if i am going to get gassed, i want to know about it

Paul


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi

All the evidence says its not possible, but the people that say they are not sure cannot offer a possible scenario, all the gases that have been put forward have been dismissed by the evidence. with no idea how it couild be done some people are still prepared to accept its possible and even ignore the evidence of expert anaesthetists who say it cannot be done.

Gillian following anaesthetists saying it was NOT possible, for what possible reason do you believe it is possible?

How do you explain the fact that super powers cannot do it in hostage situations and yet some numpties in France can?

Paul is now putting forward exhaust fumes again as a possible solution, this suffers from several major flaws, 

1. like the other gases various bodyweights would succumb sooner than others and there would be deaths

2.second part of the above is that this can easily cause brain damage and internal organ damage

3. ill serious sickness and a very bad head follows in recovery

4. try it with a scrap car and no-one inside, then open the doors and sniff the soft furnishings then leave for hours and sniff again, no-one as ever mentioned the pong, case dismissed.


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## 88734 (May 9, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi
> 
> All the evidence says its *not *possible,


I think may not be possible is a better choice of words. I am not saying it has happened but I am not putting down those people that think it may have happened.

George rember when you said it was only possible to get a virus from an e-mail and later you did admit you were wrong. You have a lot of very useful knowledge but it's a shame you have upset so many people.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Paul

If people are going to be offended by the facts then that is entirely their problem, all the available evidence says its NOT possible, not even a slight maybe exists. No-one as ever put forward even a vaguely plausable scenario

Yes I do remember, Is it relevent in some way? even Vaguely?


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## 88734 (May 9, 2005)

Just reminding you that you are not always right. Now lets not turn this into another bun fight.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Paul

I dont need reminding that I like anyone else can be wrong occasionally, on gas attacks, its not even a remote possibility. 

When the first death occurs, then a gas attack as happened.


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## 88785 (May 9, 2005)

Can't you just agree to disagree - seems a bit futile to me :roll:


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## Road_Runner_644 (May 9, 2005)

This one just bowls me over

Why would criminals, having the power to complely knock out cold a whole building, keep picking on motorhomes, so they can steal a couple of mobile phones, and maybe a couple of credit cards and a half drunk bottle of wine.

With that sort of wondergas, surely they would have the sense to poke it through the letterbox of some extremley rich persons house, knock em all out, and have a field day.

But NO, they pick on motorhomers , British people living in spain, and Daniella Westbrook.

In the stories we see, as it doesn't and never has killed anyone yet (Except in the Russian hostage example - and that was only the Rusky version of the SAS, they were bound to cock it up - right?) - Why isn't it in daily use over here as we have some of the cleverest criminals in the world. I'm sure there would be some far more devious uses made of it than silently mugging the occupants of a motorcaravan.

And why is it the only people who seem to know what the gas actually is, are the people that make the detectors? - they must do because their product detects it. 

How on earth can you detect something if nobody knows what it contains.

To me, it's beyond reason.

There you go - rant over

Dave


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## 88785 (May 9, 2005)

> so they can steal a couple of mobile phones, and maybe a couple of credit cards and a half drunk bottle of wine.


They would be very lucky if they got a half drunk bottle of wine from our van :wink:


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Dave

Quote

(Except in the Russian hostage example - and that was only the Rusky version of the SAS, they were bound to cock it up - right?) 

Endquote

The Russian Version of SAS is Spetznatz along with the French Foreign legion special forces and the Israeli special forces, they are the best in the world. 

Who would be the top unit out of these? it is very hard to determine, Spetznatz are very very shadowy even now. By no means an amateur outfit. A special job unit could be made up of civilians and Army, police and GRU mil Intel and or anyone that they think could be useful.

Other than the Spetnatz reference ( I did note the "Right?") 

The rest is a totally logical slaughtering of the GAS ATTACK Urban Legend.

You are right too, beyond any reasonable doubt.


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## Road_Runner_644 (May 9, 2005)

Hi George



> The Russian Version of SAS is Spetznatz along with the French Foreign legion special forces and the Israeli special forces, they are the best in the world.


It was tongue in cheek, it was a dig at the fact that we always seem to think that we are the best in the world, and that the thought that Spetznaz wouldn't have had the very best advice, in what was clearly a very risky but in some experts view a possible way to extract the hostages. Sod's law kicked in somewhere in the calculation, so i don't think it is at all possible that a couple of spanish bandits have the interior volume of your average autosleeper , and dose it based on a dosage chart carried in their "how to gas uk motorhomers" guide.

Dave


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## Road_Runner_644 (May 9, 2005)

Sorry Chris - Jumped to end of thread, and missed your comment



> They would be very lucky if they got a half drunk bottle of wine from our van Wink


Same here


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## chrisgog (May 17, 2005)

Just to add fuel to this debate, this was in The Times today.

It refers to gas attacks of homeowners in Spain:-

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1621557,00.html

May 21, 2005

Gary and Louise Cornish, with their son Ben, 11, were locked in their home by thieves who took £8,000 of their belongings (PHOTO: DAVID JONES)

Panic sales on costas as gangs gas and burgle the British
By Edward Owen in Madrid and Daniel McGrory

CRIMINAL gangs are targeting British homeowners on the Spanish costas and using knockout gas to overpower their victims in exclusive resorts.

A spate of robberies and the murder last weekend of Winston Mills, 67, who was shot dead in front of his wife at their villa near La Manga, have prompted many Britons to put their properties on the market.

Some frightened residents block roads leading to their estate with sandbags every night and mount their own vigilante patrols at La Nucia, near Benidorm.

Victims have told The Times how the gangs sprayed them with an aerosol of anaesthetic gas that rendered them unconscious. One vetern British consular officer on the Costa Blanca, who was too scared to give his name, described how he was the recent target of a gang.

"I was asleep in my house with my wife, and my son was in another room. Suddenly I woke up and felt sweaty, sick and groggy for no reason. I staggered out of bed and I could hardly walk. I turned on the passage light, saw it was 5am and went to the bathroom where I vomited. I must have passed out again because it wasn't until later that morning I realised that someone had entered the house during the night and robbed us, and I had not heard a thing.

"The robbers had even been next to our bed and stolen my wife's jewellery and watch. They must have sprayed me with something to keep me asleep and that's what made me ill."

Police told him that he was a victim of skilled Eastern European gangs, mainly from Romania and Albania, who are stalking foreign residents. The police say that they are overwhelmed by the gangs' activities. Mayors, worried about the damage being done to their area's reputation, have promised to set up emergency task forces to cope with the menace, but British homeowners say that there is little evidence of extra patrols.

Chris Poole, a former police officer from Dudley, in the West Midlands, has set up a neighbourhood watch team to patrol the streets at Orihuela on the Costa Blanca. Worried British homeowners around Torrevieja, 30 miles south of Alicante, have set up 42 patrols.

Victims have complained that even when the gas gangsters are caught, lax laws allow them to go free. Some gang members have been detained as many as 25 times. Around Tarragona, hundreds of villas have been robbed in the past four months despite Operation Insomnia undertaken by the Civil Guard. Members of an Albanian gang were charged with 200 villa robberies. Britons who have tried to resist their attackers have been treated brutally. One pensioner was stabbed in the neck, tied up and left for dead as a four-man gang ransacked his home.

The frustration at the lack of police action led to a meeting last week between Enough is Enough (Ya Está Bien), a foreigners' action group, and Etelvina Andreu, the regional government delegate in Alicante. She acknowledged that the extra police protection that was promised would not arrive until later this year. A spokesman for the Civil Guard said: "This is a paradise for [the criminals], with tens of thousands of villas and apartments. They go for wealthy-looking properties, especially with nice cars outside."


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## Road_Runner_644 (May 9, 2005)

It doesn't stop does it 

This is the most revealing bit



> "The robbers had even been next to our bed and stolen my wife's jewellery and watch. They must have sprayed me with something to keep me asleep and that's what made me ill."


To me this reads - "I've read about this in the papers so it must have happened to me"

Houses all over the world are burgled every night, and people only find out in the morning. We were burgled a couple of years ago, on a wendesday night. The crook ripped off the kitchen window, ignored the dog, ransacked the downstairs, and then drove off in my VW Trooper camper full of my goods.

I felt such a prat in the morning, I wish i could have said that we must have been gassed, I could of got on the front page of the local rag 

Dave


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

I, too, have written before, of my scepticism about supposed 'gassings', and I repeat it, here and now, to show where I stand on this.

Of course, the relevant passage in The Times's report is "They must have sprayed me with something to keep me asleep" There is nothing else in the report (and I read it this morning) that gives evidence of 'gassings' except the alarmist bye-line and the above quote. This is NOT evidence, just more hearsay.

I am perfectly willing, despite all the confounding evidence from Boff, George Telford and others, to believe that gassing had happened IF just one piece of evidence were to be produced that gassing has happened. Thus far there has been no evidence (to my knowledge) - it has just been people re-stating the urban myth that they've "been gassed" because they just cannot believe that someone broke in and wandered round their bedroom without them hearing.

Please, PLEASE produce some evidence... someone... please!


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Barry

Thats the sum total of the evidence that always "supports" this urban legend.

They must have...... 

Another couple said........... 

the reports of gas attacks are one the increase............

sales of gas alarms are increasing...............

There is an increasing use of narcotic gas in the North (south east west basically somewhere just to far away for the reporter to gather any first hand evidence.........

Police told them.....................

Amazing how much the police know and yet they make no arrests and cetainly never catch them with any gas.

Watch out if driving an old motorhome and you have a can of easy start or the more potent Australian "start ya bastard" on board, but there again you aint albanian, so Phew i cant be you.


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## 88734 (May 9, 2005)

Lynn's always complaining of gas attacks in the middle of the night, and its nothing to do with intruders!  8O


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Amazing how much the police know and yet they make no arrests and cetainly never catch them with any gas.


Sorry but I thought this read that they were catching gang members


chrisgog said:


> Victims have complained that even when the gas gangsters are caught, lax laws allow them to go free. Some gang members have been detained as many as 25 times. Around Tarragona, hundreds of villas have been robbed in the past four months despite Operation Insomnia undertaken by the Civil Guard. Members of an Albanian gang were charged with 200 villa robberies. Britons who have tried to resist their attackers have been treated brutally.


As for catching them with the gas on them.
I think if I was one of the robbers the first thing I would do is throw away a used or part used aerosol can.

Still, don't worry, George has said it doesn't happen.
Why should I take any notice of an article in the Times online?


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Gillian, this is very lax reporting on the part of Edward Owen and Daniel McGrory. They keep mentioning 'gas' and 'gas robbers' but they only report hearsay, then present it as true facts. They mention that Britons (and presumably others) who have resisted have been treated brutally. Er, weren't they supposed to be 'gassed'?

We're all free to take whatever precautions we feel necessary to protect ourselves, Gillian, and your alarm is well worth it if it makes you feel safer. It doesn't alter the fact that this 'gas business' is an urban myth that has gained a credibility it doesn't deserve, until such time as some credible evidence is produced. This is not intended as a criticism of those of us who have chosen to take precautions; merely a statement of what I believe to be the truth.

I don't think it's right for us to abuse each other over this contentious issue, either. Some of us are more worried about perceived crime than others, that's all.

However, I'm a sceptic until some evidence is forthcoming.


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

Fair comment but I've always worried about people who shout too much and like to defend the other corner.


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

And there's nothing wrong with that, either, Gillian. Full marks. 

Debate is all about conflicting points of view. Reasoned debate is dealing with the ideas sensibly.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Gillian

Quote

Still, don't worry, George has said it doesn't happen. 
Why should I take any notice of an article in the Times online?

endquote

Because I put forward a scientific explaination of why it is not possible, backed by the facts about anaesthetics and also Anaesthetists have said online that itis not possible even in theatre under close observation people have died due to aneasthetic, but some numpty in france can spray an explosive gas into a van in a random amount and not kill anyone even varying body weights and ages and states of health? why do you even think there is a glimmer of a chnace of it being real.

I posted these questions to you on the previous page, of course you do not have to respond, but can you not even give a basic outline of why you think its possible?


All the evidence says its not possible, but the people that say they are not sure cannot offer a possible scenario, all the gases that have been put forward have been dismissed by the evidence. with no idea how it couild be done some people are still prepared to accept its possible and even ignore the evidence of expert anaesthetists who say it cannot be done. 

Gillian following anaesthetists saying it was NOT possible, for what possible reason do you believe it is possible? 

How do you explain the fact that super powers cannot do it in hostage situations and yet some numpties in France can?


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

BTW 

I am not shouting, I am merely putting forward evidence and facts to support the view that this is not possible. 

Defending the other corner as got to consist of more than saying I believe and the Times says (even when the Times article contains the usual lack of evidence)


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## james (May 15, 2005)

I have asked this before but no one picked up on it. What gas do these alarms detect?... I have seen one advert claiming that it detects ether, which is in fact a liquid, albeit a volatile one. To become unconscious with it you would have to inhale the vapour in a concentrated form, that is through a gauze wet with it. If they fill the MH with enough a vapour to "gas" you then you would be in much more danger of being killed by an explosion have rather than becoming unconscious as it has a flash point of only 188 deg. C. I used to use ether when making fuel for model engines as a youngster, I recall leaning over open bottles of the stuff and I never even felt dizzy! The advert goes on to claim that it detects "other narcotic sleeping gasses”. Apart from the facts that narcotic means sleeping anyway and as I said ether is not a gas, what gasses are these? We need to know! 
James


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

You mean to say *James* you didn't get HIGH starting your little diesel engine? :?


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## james (May 15, 2005)

Hi John,
Nope, and nor did my model planes, they all ended up nose diving into the ground! Perhaps I didnt use enough ether!..


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## Road_Runner_644 (May 9, 2005)

Hi All

I Know this one will run and run, and where personal safety is involved, I agree its better to be safe than sorry.

What infuriates me about the whole thing is this. Look at the prices of the narcotic gas detectors.

http://www.brownhills.co.uk/acatalog/Gas_Safety.html

This is no crucifixion of the particular dealer, it just came up early on google after a search for narcotic gas detectors. Lots of other dealers have them on sale. Look further on google and you will find lots of dealers selling them.

In fact, a narcotic gas detector, built in to a cigar lighter plug is a bargain, because the commercial versions of these detectors cost thousands of pounds, but in the commercial world narcotics are defined as cocaine, amphetamines etc.

The cigar lighter narcotic gas detector must be a real find for goverments, armed forces, rich private individuals, do you get my drift?

In fact, at the moment, the best narcotic detectors are trained dogs.

I don't like the term "Urban Myth" - I try not to use it because I believe the term has become an easy ploy to imply that the "believer" in the "myth" is stupid or easily conned.

The problem lies with the media, having to fill column inches or 30 second TV reports.

I.E. heres some filler for our news bulletin - Gas Attacks

in plain terms - its b****hit

I really don't wish to offend anyone.

Dave


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## ralph-dot (May 10, 2005)

When we wakeup our motorhome always smells like someone has let off gas, it also looks like it has been ransacked during the night.

Ralph


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Dave 

I dont think Urban legend is an insult it describes these stories that float around and seem to become real due to the proliferation, many are extremely clever and to be honest when I first heard this one I was caught, for all of about 5 mins, just looking up basic evidence showed me it was impossible, there would have been casualties, then the simple follow on why cant superpowers use it in hostage situations (look what happened when they tried, many deaths) 

Add in the fact that not one piece of hard evidence is ever found.

There are many more urban legend's, that are sometimes much harder to break down.


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## Pusser (May 9, 2005)

ralph52 said:


> When we wakeup our motorhome always smells like someone has let off gas, it also looks like it has been ransacked during the night.
> 
> Ralph


   - same here. It would take us weeks to know if we had been burgled.


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

8O It's been known (frequently) for the wife to set off our internal gas alarm. 8O


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Talking to a returning traveller from Spain I was told that the Spanish press had widely reported that Nitrous Oxide is the gas being used in the recent spate of robberies on homes. Empty cylinders were found at the scene. I believe this is widely available, is nearly odourless, non flammable and can start to have an effect at only a 20 percent concentration and will render a person unconscious at a 80 percent concentration. Has anyone seen these reports?

peedee


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

:roll: They were mentioned some time ago *peedee*. :roll:


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi 

Its definately NOT N2O, even in recreeational use there have been deaths, Not to mention the fire Hazard involved.

In common with all it has some very nasty side effects and could very easily kill.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

I know press reports have been referred to, but I do not recall any mention of the fact that Nitrous Oxide is the gas being used. This to me seems a key piece of information as there has been much speculation about what was being used and in the absence of this information it has also been speculated/assumed that it couldn't be done. If it is Nitrous Oxide, then I think the evidence is growing that it can be done and without the victim coming to any real harm.

peedee


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peedee

Nitrous Oxide is Not a safe anaesthetic and it cannot be used to spray into vans without deaths or explosions.

The Spanish reports if they even exist are utter rubbish (again)

Quote

Occasionally, certain anesthetic agents become misused drugs. Nitrous oxide is an example. A gas of low anesthetic potency, it is incapable of inducing deep levels of anesthesia if an adequate oxygen concentration is maintained. Nitrous oxide induces a state of behavioral disinhibition, analgesia, and euphoria. One of the problems occasionally encountered when nitrous oxide is used for recreational purposes is that, unless the compound is administered with at least 20 percent oxygen, hypoxia (decreased oxygen content of the blood) can be induced. But in order to achieve high enough concentrations of nitrous oxide to get a good behavioral effect, concentrations of 50 percent or greater must be inhaled. If such concentrations are mixed with room air, inhaled oxygen concentartions drop to low levels and the hypoxia may result in irreversible brain damage.

At private parties, oxygen tanks are rarely supplied, and people have died of asphyxiation by breathing straight nitrous oxide through face masks. One way to avoid these dangers is to fill balloons from tanks and breathe from the balloons. 

Nitrous Oxide is not being used in these attacks, No deaths and No explosions.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

If you also search the internet further George you will also find reference to NO being non flammable. 

The article you quote quite clearly refers to breathing straight NO via a face mask. 
If it is simply injected into a room or motorhome it is being mixed with the normal air we breath and therefore not so lethal. 

A further searching might also reveal that it has in the past been used on sleeping 
victims to make sure they do not wake. 

I say again the evidence is growing as to what is being used and it is feasible even if there is some risk to the victims. 

peedee


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

N2 O is an excelerant hence its use to boost combustion and power in cars.

Even when administered by experts, they keep the person at the low end of anaesthia as a few percent to much induces coma and death, that is why so many people reported being awake during ops.

It easily causes vomiting and would readily cause death in anyone who has consumed any alchohal.

With No Oxygen pumped in 

"If such concentrations are mixed with room air, inhaled oxygen concentartions drop to low levels and the hypoxia may result in irreversible brain damage."

This last line clinches it, very clearly NOT Possible.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi All 
I've been following this thread with interest. I'm not convinced either way but like many on this forum would like to get to the truth. 
I wouldn't be dogmatic and say it's impossible nor would I disbelieve when there are soo many stories going about. 
George's case against is strong and well researched, while the evidence for is very weak and based on dubious reports. 
There are hundreds of "urban myths" , do a search on Google and see how many you find. 
I'll keep an open mind until I see irrefutable proof, in the meantime I won't lose sleep over it. :wink: 

Jim


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jim 

Nitrous was one of the early contenders that I dismissed (based on evidence and conversation with a pro anaesthetist)

The fact that Goverments the world over have not got a gas that will do the Job safely (witness deaths in theatre seige by one of the top 3 special forces units in the world)

Anaesthetists say it cannot be done.

No explosions from fridge pilot light.

No deaths

Not one witness

No hard evidence at all

No smell reported

Symptoms described are WRONG

URBAN LEGEND not even a remote possibility, all the evidence says its a crock of ....


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## Road_Runner_644 (May 9, 2005)

Hi all - it's off again then 

I still can't believe folk are falling for this cr*p

Nitrous oxide has been on sale for years, why on earth has it never been used in military situations or hostage situations? Surely we could have saved a lot of mucking about by simply filling the Iranian embassy with the stuff, and then our good old SAS boys wouldn't have had to risk their lives.

By all accounts it's a pretty fast acting gas, the internet searches say "make sure you are not standing up when you administer it" and it's mix with air must be closely monitored to prevent fatalities.

I agree with George but from what I read it is an inert gas, so the fire/explosion risk is ruled out unless it could be induced into the pilot system of a fridge running on gas, I'm not qualified to say whether that's possible or not.

It's used as a recreational drug, so why don't the alleged robbed folk stagger out of their vans after the robberies muttering Grateful Dead, or Jefferson Airplane lyrics. In fact it would have much the same affect as aerosol abuse, so anyone robbed should have a spotty complexion ï�Š

What I can deduce is this.

The only way I can see nitrous oxide being used to render the inhabitants of a motorhome incapable, would be to take 1000 cans of squirty cream, and fill the van with it by getting in to the dodgy roof vents that most MH's have. The only real problem then would be when the burglars forced the door open, the squirty cream would engulf them too.

Get real everyone - a gas that you can order from http://www.nitrousoxidesupplies.co.uk/

They deliver it to your door, so you can gas the nearest wildcamped motorhome, and steal their mobile phones and locally purchased bacon from the fridge.

Laughing gas has had the last laugh here I reckon.

Dave


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Dave

I am wrong on the Explosion bit then, as its used to boost car performance I assumed it would excelerate Fridge pilot flame, in reality it cools the Charge and provides more Oxygen for combustion, I should have looked at that a bit better, but all the other clinical reasons that its NOT the gas will still apply.


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi,

some facts about nitrous oxides:

1. I wrote _oxides_ because there are several different ones. The one we are talking about here, N2O, also called "laughing gas", being the only one having a weak anesthetic effect. Some of the others are either inert (means they have no effect at all) or just poisonous and will destroy your lungs if administered in high concentration.

2. N2O is a very weak anaesthetic because it's solubility product in water (and so in blood) is very low. Means that you have to administer it in very high quantities to achieve any effect. For anaesthetic effect you have to administer it via a breathing mask in a concentration of 80%. The remaining 20% must be pure oxygen, otherwise the patient will suffocate.

3. If administered in such high quantities without a breathing mask mixed with normal air for more than about 2 minutes, irreparable brain damage or even death will occur. This is because it is heavier than oxygen and will so displace the oxygen, which leads to suffocation.

4. Another effect of the low solubility product is that the anaesthetic effect fades away within very short time (1-2 minutes) as soon as administration stops. (If the victim is still alive, of course.) So the burglars would have to keep up this concentration while they are in the van, and they would have to wear breathing apparatus.

5. To achieve anaesthetic concentrations inside the confined space of an average motorhome without applying breathing masks you have to introduce about 20,000 (in words: twenty-thousand) litres of N2O!

6. If administered in lower concentrations, it's effect will be rather excitatory. That is why it is nicknamed "laughing gas" and sometimes used as a party drug. Not exactly what a robber wants.

7. Different from other, more effective anaesthetics, it is not explosive.

All in all, mentioning "nitrous oxide" in connection with alleged gas attacks on motorhomes is a certain indication that the whole story is exquisite crap.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

You could also be wrong in other areas George?

Roadrunner you are overlooking the fact that all the reported incidents have been on innocent victims not expecting to be attacked. Milatary or hostage situations are entirely different. I take it NO is detectable by an alert individual. To my knowledge all reported incident have occured whilst the victim was asleep and the gas has been administered to try and keep them that way. 

peedee


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peedee

NO, its a simple error on a minor point, I simply should have looked up more on the Nitrous as a performance booster.

Read the Nitrous stuff carefully, adminstered in an enclosed enviroment and without an Oxygen supply and deaths occur.

Re the alert individual thing, that is why you are knocked out via injection before they administer any gas, they cause gagging and retching, these gases would wake you up first.

Do you own a narcotic gas detector?


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Gerhard

Very nice summary, I think your listig should knock that one on the head


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Gerhard,

You speak with authority, I am sure, but will you realy need this amount of gas on someone who is already asleep, one article refers to only a 20 percent concentration being required to render a person incapable even tho' they remain conscious.

I am reminded of another recent debate on another forum open only to professionals in their field. Whilst there was no disagreement with the view expressed they all being like minded professionals one member posted this:

quote

I submit that people generally believe in things because

a) They have proof of it, or
b) They have evidence that supports it, or
c) They have a gut feeling about it, or
d) They just do.

I don't think belief is something that should change on a daily basis 
according to the way the wind is blowing, so I recommend trying to confine 
beliefs to category a) items. That doesn't preclude us from *supporting* 
and *going along with* lots of b) c) & d) ones. We do need to keep an open 
mind, and listen to other people's arguments on b) c) & d) all the time, 
though.

unquote

Rather like UFO stories, there are too many reports of incidents for there not to be some element of truth in them

peedee


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Peedee
> 
> Re the alert individual thing, that is why you are knocked out via injection before they administer any gas, they cause gagging and retching, these gases would wake you up first.
> 
> Do you own a narcotic gas detector?


No I do not have a detector and when I was given NO in the 50's by the dentist I did not rececieve and injection.

peedee


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peedee

This is not about belief systems, all the evidence and all related professionals say the same thing, gasses CANNOT be used in this way.

I have said that aliens are far more likely than gas attacks. But dont you find it od that aliens and theri craft have been seen and yet no-one as ever been seen lugging gas around?

Logically some half witted idiot could take some gas and put it into a motorhome, people would die.

In the belief system anti gas attacks are all ie a - d inclusive and believers are only c and d's, so using your own system it says no to gas attacks.

Do you own a Narcotic gas alarm?


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peedee

Sorry I should write far more clearly, most of the anaesthetic gases require you to be non compo mentis before the gas is applied (not just asleep) 

Re the Dentist, Yes and it was mixed accurately with Oxygen too in the dentists Chair, I have also been gassed at the dentists, but that brings forward another point, the number of deaths at dentists mean that now you have to have generals at hospital under the supervision of an anaesthetist.

Gas robberies DO NOT happen, read the stuff that I have posted re Nitrous and the very neat summary by Boff, nitrous is not even remotely plausable as a robbery gas.


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

Hi

there was mention earlier of a report in the Spainish press re a couple who had been "Gassed and Robbed" in their home etc etc...........I read the report, laughed (at the detail, not their loss) and throw it away.........wish I had kept it know.

the couple did indeed claim they were "Gassed".............all other aspects of the ful page report were full of words like...............possible, could have, might be, etc etc. I was cleverly writen and would have come accrss as fact to the casual reader.........probably the intension.

This couple were "Gassed" while asleep in their 3 bed villa...............I mean, come on! No, there was not a gas tanker parked outside overnight BUT the artical did show a picture of a gas canister and tube lying on the grass (somewhere) with the caption "...............of the type". So not the one used but could be like this one. Mmmm. Typical of many of these reports I fear.

So now the myth has credibility........It's been reported in the press, with pictures.

Anyway, keeps me amused on these hot sunny days down here, can't we start another myth.............


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Detourer

what never ceases to amaze me, is that the believers are so certain it happens, even when all the facts say its complete bunkum.


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

peedee said:


> You speak with authority, I am sure, but will you realy need this amount of gas on someone who is already asleep, one article refers to only a 20 percent concentration being required to render a person incapable even tho' they remain conscious.


Especially with N2O you will. Because if administered in too low concentrations N2O will act more like a "wake-up-gas" than putting you asleep. And even for 20% you would need about 5000 litres of gas.

Of course there are other narcotic gases which have the effect you describe if applied in sub-anaesthetic concentrations. And, as you will find out when you read the whole thread, I have never denied that people _could be narcotized_ by means of gas. What I always have denied, and still do, is that this gas, whatever it shall be, can be administered in needed quantities and time *from outside the motorhome!* Because even with modern anaesthetic gases, being much more effective than N2O, the burglar would still need to carry around incredible amounts of gas, not even mentioning administering it into the van without a lot of noise and in very short time.



peedee said:


> quote
> 
> I submit that people generally believe in things because
> 
> ...


Well, this may be a cultural difference, but I would call a) rather "knowing" than "believing". With the remaining 3 I agree.

However, looking at UFO stories: 95% of all UFO stories can be falsified by experts (and, having a degree in Physics with subsidiary subject astronomy I claim to have some expertise here) *at first sight*, another about 4.5-4.9% after more careful investigation. Remains a miserable 0.1 to 0.5% which cannot be falsified, but that does not mean they are true. So I have decided NOT to believe in UFOs. At least not in such of extraterrestrial origin. (Though I am still a Trekkie... :wink: )

And the odds against gas attacks are even stronger.

Just one last thing: I do not consider the average burglar as being very bright in mind. So there might be the one or other stupid enough to actually _try a gas attack._ What I deny is only that the gas under the described conditions has any significant effect.

Best Regards,
Gerhard

P.S: Sorry for the long response time, had a network breakdown here. Maybe the Martians... :wink:


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Boff

Quote

Remains a miserable 0.1 to 0.5% which cannot be falsified

endquote

that puts (alien) ufo's on a far higher possibility percentage than gas attacks !!

It would be suprising if we were the only planet with life forms, whethor any alien as or will reach earth is another matter entirely.

But at least alien visitation is in the realms of the possible, unlike gas robberies.


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## fjmike (May 10, 2005)

I've got it now its the aliens that are gassing and robbing motorhomes


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Thanks for all the responses

Gerhard,
I cannot remember the expansion ratio of liquid gas to vapour but it is in the order of thousands so if only 5000 litres are required (I assume you quote a gaseous state) then at 1000:1 only 5 litres is required to be carried. That is not impossible.

Detourer,
I cannot see what can be gained by the victims claiming they were gassed, the insurance would pay up however entry was gained. The press has an interest in selling more papers other than that I cannot see what there is to be gained by embelishing the story. It certainly would be frowned upon by the local authorities and the tourist boards. Did the article also not refer to a younger member in the villa being very ill as a result of the incident and what paper was it and is it available on line ?

peedee


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Mike

Aliens gassing motorhomers is statistically more probable, having conquered inter stellar travel maybe they would have the technology to gas safely.

Peedee

What part of the danger dont you understand? Its hard to get the mixture with pure oxygen right for an anaesthetist, few percent either way means wide awake or overdone and they are dead, *its not possible*

Re Victim,s claims

Many cannot believe anyone snuck past them, how did they break in and we didnt hear a thing?, I know they must have gassed us.
ANd what with police and people on websites and even the foriegn office posting a warning (I have checked and they have no evidence whatsoever) and these stupid "news" stories.

Tottaly NOT possible.


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

Perfect fjmike

Why know have an explanation that should suit eveyone (Doubt it).

Aliens (the green, slimy type), who have perfected the way to miniaturize gas/containers, are responsible. Proof being that they have never actually been seen. The whole thing would have never have happened under the previous government, but will be brought to a certain end with the introduction of ID cards etc.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

BTW its injected into inlet manifolds so the expansion rate can be nothing like 1000 times initial


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi Peedee!



peedee said:


> cannot remember the expansion ratio of liquid gas to vapour but it is in the order of thousands so if only 5000 litres are required (I assume you quote a gaseous state) then at 1000:1 only 5 litres is required to be carried. That is not impossible.


The expansion ratio depends on the substance (we have no "ideal" but a "real" gas here), it is usually somewhere between 200 and 300. However unlike Propane you can't liquify N2O just by compressing. Technical gas cilinders usually can stand a pressure of 100 bar, so you would have to carry a 50 litre cilinder, weighing around 100 kg, with you. Though that is quite a weight, it is still plausible so far.

However, probably you know how loud it hisses when you turn the valve of such a cylinder fully open. 8O And remember, at this concentration N2O will be excitating, not narcotizing. So really better forget about it. It is just a very effective way to wake up the potential victims.

The only substance I can imagine which could _theoretically_ be applied in liquid form into the van and then evaporate inside has the disadvantage that it is highly explosive and the detonation threshold lies far, far below the narcotic threshold. And you would still need some umpteen litres of liquid. Besides, it has a very strong smell and works also excitating at low concentrations. Won't tell here what it is, to avoid vans blown up instead of being burglared.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi 

1kg of liquid makes .534 of a square meter of gas so they must have a huge bank balance to afford to use this in robberies, not even financially viable.

besides the fact they would need to lug all that weight around.

In the Nitrous Oxide cup

Gas attack debunking 6 believe at all costs 0


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Under ideal conditions around 600 X is possible, dispersal is terrible in free atmos, but death is almost certain if you release enough into a small area, no way to get round it, Nitrous cannot possibly be the gas.


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

Hi peedee

Quite right. Sometimes after a night "cruising" with my brother-in- law (Capt. Police), or a trip to the local police station (do a bit of trans for naughty Brits) I to often wonder what is gained by the fantastic stories of not just perpitrators, but also victims of "crime" down here.

Of course the press never "embelish" stories or fact :wink: 

No, from memory I think it was just a couple and a hampster (who also survived) involved..............No idea which of the many free English language rags it was in...........never keep them more than it takes to drink a cool beer from the bar that I find them in. Always full of C### and comments from whinging Ex-pats who move here and then want to ban Ferias, late night rubbish collection, hot sun, siesta etc etc


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

You missed one whinge out *Detourer*. Those B***** free-loading camper's. :wink:


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## 88870 (May 10, 2005)

I remember an article in a paper a couple of weeks ago, about crime on the Costas. However, it wasn't implying that the whole house was filled with gas, more to the fact that the breakin occurred first and then the couple were gassed. 

This I would assume meant that they were broken into, someone tippy toed to their bed and stuck something narcotic like over their faces .... and then proceeded to rob the house without worrying about the couple waking up.

The rest of the article painted a pretty bad picture of breakins, muggings, shootings, purposeful rammings off road etc all over the Costa's. Basically it said its a crime ridden hive! Then again, journalistic sensationalism and all that ..... !


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

So right wurz, we are all reduced to trembling wrecks down here, frightened to leave the confines of our pooled/BBQ area's. What with all the muggings, car jackings, rapes, not to mention all the gassings, its hardly safe here anymore....................wish I could come back................yeh right! :lol:


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Wurz

Quote

This I would assume meant that they were broken into, someone tippy toed to their bed and stuck something narcotic like over their faces .... and then proceeded to rob the house without worrying about the couple waking up. 

Endquote

Basically it was infered gas was used then and the reader left to join the dots.

Right what would be the point?, to avoid Identification? so you creep up and place a mask over someones face and they do not notice, Blimey that sounds plausable (NOT) and no-one actually remembers this ??? Even less likely than the supposed spray through the vent trick.


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## Road_Runner_644 (May 9, 2005)

Blimey - it's a long thread! 

Hi George - no contradiction of the argument in general, the gas in question is not explosive, i did have thoughts about how it might be introduced into the fridge system though - Maybe it could be put to some useful purpose by making MH fridges go cold really quickly - and then maybe i'd blow myself up trying 


Hi Peedee, I'm not suggesting that some sort of gas attack is totaly out of the question, it's just the gas pipe through the letter box or mh vent type that I can't see to be possible. 

I'm sure it's very possible to spray folk wih cold start, or whatever contains these obnoxious gases, whether it would work is a different matter,.If someone broke into our van and sprayed me with coldstart, i'd feel the need to smack him/her hard with the cricket bat that hangs next to the drop down bed in our van, if that failed a Glasgow kiss from Mrs Roadrunner usually does the trick. 

Why on earth would anyone want to go to the trouble of gassing the roadruner family when in spain one day. The only gain would be a decent collection of goth cd's( girl aged 14), some pretty riotous punk type cd's (Boy 13), and a selection of free in the sunday paper cd's (Mr & Mrs Roadrunner) - which are pretty good for nothing. 

If i had the technology to knockout folk at will, I think i'd pick a taxi office, money lender, brothel, late night chemist, off license - the list goes on, and i haven't got a criminal mind - i don't think i have anyway. 

What riles me about the subject is that i think folk are being ripped off, with gas alarms, and a false sense of security in general. 

Why is it that the spanish crook has this complete understanding of how to gas folk, and our own criminals are useless. I don't want to make this thing a criminal point scorer, but i think our criminals are up with the best of them, Certainly the guy that broke into our place and nicked my camper was some cool cookie. If i ever find him, i'll slap his hand, but he didn't need gas, just a very strong nerve (probably drug induced). 

Bottom line - The technical stuff from Gerhard, George won't let go of this one, Detourer knows the score out there, it's bunkum or whatever you choose to call it. 

Doug the westie just farted - now that is a gas attack! 

Don't have nightmares 

Dave


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Thanks for all the comments, I am sure this subject won't go away, there will be more reports I am sure. Meantime I won't rush out and buy a gas alarm but I will keep an open mind.

peedee


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Pedee

Thats like keeping an open mind over were the sun rises and sets, pointless its never going to change. Its not a matter of opinion, just cold hard facts its not possible.

Do gas attacks occur? No 

Keep an open mind on a subject were there is no definative proof either way, other wise you are just wasting space


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi 

just got these figures to add.

Its the statistics of deaths due to gas in the cinema seige of 800 people in the building 117 died from the effects of the gas. Thats administered by one of the best special forces in the world, many of the people died after leaving the building ie there was not enough used to knock them all out (even in middle of the night when most were asleep anyway)

Of the 119 hostages now reported to have died, only two were victims of gunshot wounds, while the rest died from the effects of the gas.


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## Road_Runner_644 (May 9, 2005)

Hi George

It's sad to see these figures, and it scares the s**t out of me if there was a possibility of a gas attack on our family unit. It would mean that one of the four of us would possibly be dead after some gas enabled scum did the business on us to steal our goth cd's and locally purchased bacon.

If you believe in gas attacks, ring up the live 8 phone line and donate 50 quid, this will make you as secure as you need to be.

If you don't believe in gas attacks, ring up the live 8 phone line and donate 50 quid, this will make you as secure as you need to be.

If you don’t agree with aid for Africa, donate 50 quid to a charity that you agree with, this will make you as secure as you need to be.

Dave


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