# Politics & Gypsy·s & M/homes



## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Hi all,

I would like to start a discusion on the possible knock on effect of the political subject on Gypsy·s and planning that is in the media at the moment and in particular is there anything to be done to make sure the general public realize that M/H owners are not Gypsy·s.

I Personaly believe that the Gypsys should be made to keep within the law and that in the long run it will do the M/H faternity more good than harm.

Doug...


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## 88915 (May 10, 2005)

You beat me to it there, Doug. Old Dracula has jumped on another bandwagon - pandering to Sun "readers" - that's normally Tony Blur's job.
Illegal sites without planning permission are a completely different kettle of fish than a few vans parked up on a car park or a field & leaving it a few weeks later looking like a tip. If there were more "official" gipsy sites then the problem wouldn't be so bad; when there was a requirement for councils to set up gipsy sites, the councils could move them to the site in the area. The consevative government removed this...

At present trespass is a civil offence; Mr H wants to make it a criminal offence. Where does that leave wild campers? As usual it's a knee- jerk reaction from polticians without sorting out the root cause. 
It will only get worse - more height barriers & restricitions on where you can & can't park.


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

I'm a tad puzzled about human rights issues. If it is a human right to camp out on other people's property, where does the human right come from for the owner of the property to enjoy his land without trespassers.

But God did say, Forgive those that trespass against us so I suppose we have to let them trespass and then forgive them... 8O


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## bigfoot (May 16, 2005)

The Irish travellers are here because the law is very strict in Eire.
I believe that Howard is just using it as a ploy for votes and a sinister smokescreen to cover the real reason-to repeal the Human rights act. True it is abused by the few who then tarnish the many. HR is also misinterpreted by 'pinko liberals' , many of whom are in statutory positions who themselves are conned by the perpetrators.
Look back in history at the conflict against gypsies, I think it was a failed Austrian house painter who had a similar idea to that instituted by the Russians. Moderation in all things.
It will have effects on us. When there were problems with travellers years ago I was visiting friends in Wiltshire and became the focus of plods attention as soon as I got within a few miles of Stonehenge.
It will happen esp. in areas were the authorities haven't briefed their staff.


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## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

Gypsies are no different to motor caravanners.

They need to stop somewhere.

Just because you have a house as well you are still a traveller when you are on the road!

What has given us the right to lay claim to the land any way. It's like people who are selling the surface of the moon. It's not theirs to sell.

The basic human right is having a place to live. Why do we need to give someone else money to buy something which is not really theirs in the first place? Fine buy a house, that is something which has been built but the land that the house sits on was always there. The land itself should not belong to anyone.

The surface of the planet has been split into small parts by war, people bully their way in and lay claim to bits of land. Now we are ??civilised?? we use money.


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## 88844 (May 9, 2005)

We must not forget there is a big difference between Gypsy's and 'Travellers'. Gypsy's are a race of people, many of whom are here because of persecution in Eastern Europe and Germany. We have a Gypsy site close to us owned and run by the local council. I have been on commercial holiday sites in worse order! we also have problems with 'Travellers' that cause havoc around the town. They children usually home in on the supermarkets shop lifting and leaving excrement (yes human) around the car park.


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi all
IMHO.
Before anyone gets too steamed up about the Human rights issue or any other issue to do with Gypsies ,travellers (or even motorhomers )......Please be aware that the current suggestions from Howard and the conservatives are more to do with the situations where the Gypsies/travellers/tinkers/folk buy a piece of agricultural land and then move in on it, sometimes creating vast sites right next door to other folk who have always paid their way in society and are left to see the value of their hard earned homes drop like a stone.

The travellers cannot be moved on because they own the land, court orders are fought and the whole thing just drags on and on with the travellers paying for high powered barristers to fight their side of the court case. All people should have a chance of a home or a place to make a home but there must be some form of order and control in our society. These people flout the planning regulations and use the current politically correct atmosphere to further their own ends.

I doubt I could get planning permission for a car port to cover my motorhome...so what should I do ...just get on and build it and then tell the planners to sod off and spend their time sorting out the several highly developed illegal gypsy sites in our area......I can't afford a barrister to fight my case but the travellers can just by having a whip round, they have saved so much by illegally developing and creating a settlement for several very well heeled traveller families that £25000 to fight off the planners is chicken feed to them.


Mike
P.S. By the way I just realised I had not voted.....I have now in fact voted NO they should not be prosecuted for illegal camping but illegal camping is not really what all the fuss is about at the moment. In fact we motorhomers could be accused of illegal camping if we decide to park up overnight on someone else's land...it might only be wild camping to you....but???


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## 89429 (May 23, 2005)

I've watched this debate and feel that I have a tuppence worth to add.
The latest outburst by a politician is very surprising when you consider his family background. It was recently revealed that some of his predecessors when they first came to Britain were illegal immigrants. They came to Britain to escape persecution. Does this politician now feel that there are too many aliens in "his country" of whatever colour?
Does he forget that Britain has had reputation as a place that looks after people in the same position as his grandfather?

I could go on and on and on on this matter but I feel that for the forum to get engrossed in political matters is wrong, we are motorhomers, mostly, we operate through a keyboard where nobody sees the other contributors nationality, race, creed, sex and sexual orientation do not matter.Lets keep it that way. In the upcoming months we will see more than enough of politicians on the teely, papers radio without inflicting them on our leisure time. Lets keep the forum politics free!


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Hi all,

In the original post I said 

" in particular is there anything to be done to make sure the general public realize that M/H owners are not Gypsy·s."

Reading through the responses its interesting to note that no one has taken this point up, instead you seem to want to discuss the rights and wrongs of the Gypsy's.

In no one concerned that this publicity could result in M/homer's being painted with the same brush as the the travelers that have no homes?

Doug...


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

red_dragon_bus said:


> Gypsies are no different to motor caravanners.


I can't say I know of any 'real' gypsies, but we do see lots of Irish tinkers/travellers who are collectively known as gypsies. Most of them cause a mess left to be cleared up at ratepayers expense. Also I don't recall seeing many with motorcarvans most have caravans pulled by expensive 4x4's or transit vans. My neighbour recently had his firms car park taken over by a group of travellers, they damaged cars, threatned physical violence, left rubbish & excrement then had the cheek to ask for money for diesel to move on. The police only came after repeated calls when they were literally trapped inside their building.
Any real gypsies like good motorcaravanners would find places where to park without causing problems & not abuse other peoples rights. They would also leave the place as they found it.


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## stuffed2 (May 9, 2005)

Spotted last week , travelers taken over a under used industrial /out of town site. At the centre of the site surrounded by the caravans - a nearly new large coachbuilt motorhome - complete with milk churns for water,
They left after a couple of days - marked there territory as usual with empty gas cylinders , etc.

Thay are not political or economical migrants , just tinkers aka knife shapeners, tarmacers, general chancers - they feed off peoples greed and fear . and they are in a town near you.


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## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

Interesting this, I believe the distinction between Gypsy and Irish Scum Travellers should be more distinct, I also wonder what the good Irish people think about that!. 
I wonder how many of you gave money to Red Nose day collections as they were forced to admit that one of the 'good' causes they were supporting was helping these people to fight eviction orders, I am glad I did not give this time.


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## 89074 (May 13, 2005)

the reason for the upsurge in illegal sites 
is the lack of legal ones

plain and simple


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

Hi Tweenievan

If only it was that plain and simple................Would it mean that "Legal" sites would be free of filth, crime, intimidation etc etc etc? I think not!


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

In my view the main difference between "us and them" is we pay taxes, abide by the law of the land, do not create filth, are not aggressive and generally contribute to society.

THEY DON'T, DO, ARE and DON'T !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If they wish to "travel" let them do so and pay the commercial rate for overnight stops, if they are lucky enough to find a legal, suitable spot to wild / free camp, fine do it in the same manner as we do i.e. leave in at least as clean, tidy, rubbish free state as they find it.

They don't want to travel, just live their chosen lifestyle, sponging / robbing from mugs like us that pay our dues.

John


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## 89074 (May 13, 2005)

Detourer said:


> Would it mean that "Legal" sites would be free of filth, crime, intimidation etc etc etc? I think not!


my point is that there is not enough legal pitches for the size of the population

_There are around 320 local authority sites providing about 5,000 pitches (ODPM) _
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_housing/documents/page/odpm_house_023012.pdf
_Estimates of the size of the Gypsy and Traveller population in the United Kingdom range between 90,000 and 120.000 (UK PARLIAMENT)_
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmselect/cmodpm/633/63304.htm

_and most of the proposed sites are being withdrawn _(BBC NEWS)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/4096429.stm

_this is an example of the alternative (GUARDIAN)_
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1359982,00.html


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## 88726 (May 9, 2005)

hi guys
its an interesting debate .
my local area had the same problem years ago with huge groups of travelers on old shale bings and waste grounds . the local authority had a huge problem moving them so eventually they built a proper site that then gave them the right to direct them to the proper facility provided for them or else leave . it has worked wonders here and the site is well maintained and theres no piles of washing machines lying about either so from experience i think this is the way to go . it also ensures they pay something back to the area in which they reside by way of charges . there was an unruly element amongst them but they have mostly gone as they didnt want to pay probabally . if this is the way these people want to live so be it as long as they conduct themselves in the same manner we are expected to do . as for those who purchase land with the motive to make it their camp move the buggers on and outlaw the practice its up to the locals and their local council to decide where the facilities are set up not the travellers . 
as to whether we are all tarred with the same brush , i dont think so as even i can spot them a mile off .
cheers
kenny+stella


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## 90172 (May 1, 2005)

there are many aspects to this topic
1 / gypsys, they are much like us wildcampers. they move around, wildcamp on land by themselves and leave it clean and tidy. they are a race different to us
2 / travellers same as above but belong to the same race as us
3 / travellers who leave a mess, cause problems, steal, intimidate etc

I am a wildcamper because i don't want to stay on regimented sites 6 ft from the next van and paying through the nose for it. I have everything in my van and no need for anything the sites provide except waste disposal and I can usually find a public loo to dispose of waste. 
the land I wild on is public land bought by public money and I never use privately owned land except with permission.

back to the original question. In what way am I different to a traveller?
I obviously do not want to be classed as one of the trouble some lot.
I have met members of both 2 and 3 on my travels, more of 2 than 3 fortunately

there are definitely more people travelling than sites for them to use and if they have no place to park up legally can they be blamed for buying land to set up their own sites. from the items seen on the tv they have followed the law by buying the land, applying for planning permission ansd while waiting for that permission , going ahead with the developement and then appealing if the permission is refused. just as anyone of us is entitled to do.

they are not taxpayers? they are! 
everyone of us is. 
everything we buy is taxed from fuel to food [food is transported and part of the cost of the food is the transport, fuel, vehicles purchase, road tax etc which is taxed very heavily]
it could be said I am not a taxpayer as I am now disabled so do not earn and pay tax anymore

I hope this is a vote thing because as we all know they never keep their election promises so we need not worry about it. However this could have a very serious effect on me and the rest of us.
I do not have the money to be able to go away and use a campsite [nor the wish to] so if the situation occurs where legislation is brought in to make what i do illegal then I lose my one form of enjoyment left.

unless I buy a boat and convert that to a camper.

I keep remembering the present attitude of the authorities.
it is easier and more profitable to penalise the law abiding.
they plead guilty without going to court and pay their fines without having to be chased for them. 
I'm worried


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Hi all,

If more official sites for Gypsy's were provided, would this then Encourage more of the Irish variety to come over, as I understand it they are not welcome in there own country! Would we ever be able to provide enough sites?

On a personel experiance, my wife worked as a medical receiptionist and when we had the Gypsy's on our local common they would come to her surgery and demand to be seen with out waiting for an appointment, they were Belligerent, loud, and foul mouthed, many of the local older Patients would leave saying that they would come back at another time.

The doctors usually seen to them right away so as to get rid of them as soon as possible.

When they were camped on the common the cemetary was used as their toilets, this upset many local who´s family where in the cemetary.

Doug.


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## 90403 (May 1, 2005)

*Travellers*

I have followed this debate with great interest and this evening in our local Press it was announced that our local official site for travellers would RE-OPEN after being closed for the past year.
It was completely wrecked by warring factions of travellers, it has taken a year and £600,000 to be refurbished. 60% of this cost from central funds and the rest from Council Tax.
Can anybody tell me do 'their' travellers pay Council Tax or any other Tax? Our local Romanian contingent certainly don't
While in Ireland last year I was told England is the most generous, softest Country in the world.
I rest my case, NIMBY


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## 89074 (May 13, 2005)

macboro

why the moral high ground ?

did you pay Irish council tax last year ?


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

tweenievan said:


> did you pay Irish council tax last year ?


If he went there on holiday and stayed at any camp sites then he certainly did contribute to Irish Council tax ....or what ever they call it "over dare".

Mike


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## phoenix (May 9, 2005)

I disagree with you Doug, M/H'ers ARE gypsies...in that true gypsies always leave a place as they found it as all M/Hers should do.

Its the 'other travellers' who cause mess etc that are a problem and they have existed for years without causing too much harm to the M/Hers, up to now ...

We saw a large nearly new motorhome in with group of travellers caravans on the verges around a local lake last summer. We mentioned at the time that this was the start of all M/Hs getting the same reaction when we park up as the 'dirty brigade'. We were reassured that no one here mentioned seeing a motorhome ..... until this thread  

If these people leave their campsites clean then I'm quite happy to see them around and I envy them the freedom.

Tesco's have built three large supermarkets here - all of them were built larger then the planning permissions given. Were they asked to tear them down? Of course not! So the travellers aren't the only ones ignoring/pre-empting planning regulations.

Lyn


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## 90403 (May 1, 2005)

*Travellers*

Tweenievan,
Its not a moral high ground its a financial high ground,
as a senior citizen I have to pay £110 a month for my Council Tax without relief, I begrudge itinerants any rights they have not paid for.
I can speak from experience that my beloved Country is heading for a major breakdown if it does not get its act together.
I had to move house because my council decided that no Motorvans or Caravans or Commercial vans could be parked on the forecourts of our properties, this was because we where absorbed into a new devolopment.
They then proceeded to establish a travellers site within 500m.
You tell me if that's justice. Yes we could have fought it at a cost, estimated legal fees £5000 per household with no guarantee.
But the travellers received legal aid in their battle to have their site done up after they wrecked it.
England, Soft Touch!!


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## 93514 (May 1, 2005)

Doug60 said:


> is there anything to be done to make sure the general public realize that M/H owners are not Gypsy·s.


How about a MH Facts sticker :?:

Something along the lines of "I am not a gypsy" :roll:

Surely even the general public will be able to differentiate between dozens of Transits, Sprinters, caravans, lurcher dogs, snotty nosed kids (usually with wild mops of curly red hair), and the pronounced Irish accents of the 'wild campers' who congregate together for weeks on end amassing mountains of scrap machinery, rubbish etc

from

your average common or garden motorhomer who chooses to stop overnight in a scenic location in the absence of most of the above :?:

I'm afraid I belong to the politically incorrect minority who actually cheered when "old dracula" suggested upsetting the applecart (or gravy train) with his proposals. It's about time, regardless of vote catching, that some of our politicians and most of society got off their fat, pampered ar*es and started taking regular reality checks.

Kev


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## peter (May 10, 2005)

*Should Gypsys be prosecuted for illegal camping*

I am sad to see this wonderful site turn into a polictical debate.
It seems like Howards mob has grabbed the forum, by stirring up peoples feelings.
Can someone tell me the difference between a Gypsy and a proper full timer, by this I mean someone travelling around with no base address probally working to subsidize their travelling expenses.
I know there are many on here who profess to be full timers but they aren't really.
I wont vote because I think it could be used as a feed back to a certain polictical party.

Pete


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## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Should Gypsys be prosecuted for illegal camping*



pete said:


> I am sad to see this wonderful site turn into a polictical debate.
> It seems like Howards mob has grabbed the forum, by stirring up peoples feelings.
> Can someone tell me the difference between a Gypsy and a proper full timer, by this I mean someone travelling around with no base address probally working to subsidize their travelling expenses.
> I know there are many on here who profess to be full timers but they aren't really.
> ...


It's OK to be a full timer in your chosed vehicle provided you are not;

A) a Gypsie
B) Irish
C) a dog owner
D) a transit owner

If you don't fall into one of those categories you can park anywhere you like and set up your BBQ.

I am afraid Bliar might get back in, purely due to the lack of credible opposition. Talk about incitement to racial hatred? I'm sure the BNP are at a loss to top the torries policies.


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Should Gypsys be prosecuted for illegal camping*

Hi all

Pete in his post said _"I am sad to see this wonderful site turn into a polictical debate.
It seems like Howards mob has grabbed the forum, by stirring up peoples feelings."_
Come on, one thread discussing a subject, which if legislation to outlaw "wild" camping comes about because of "illegal camping" by whoever is hardly turning MHF into a political debate. And to throw around assertions like that (howards mob) is somewhat rude and misplaced on this forum...sorry to say that but it is true, I may think you are a "insert whatever adjective may annoy you here" but I certainly would not write it here. We have managed to stay quite free of slanging matches on this forum, I hope it stays that way.

Pete also said _"Can someone tell me the difference between a Gypsy and a proper full timer, by this I mean someone travelling around with no base address probally working to subsidize their travelling expenses."_

IMHO there is no actual difference only a difference in the way that they may or may not respect other peoples property and feelings.

Pete said _"I know there are many on here who profess to be full timers but they aren't really."_

If you are refering to the description on the left near my avatar then you are right and it can be misleading.....it just means I have posted a lot on MHF.

Pete also said _"I wont vote because I think it could be used as a feed back to a certain polictical party."_

You have to be joking :lol:

I do hope you don't just think I am having a go at you I am not ...I honestly think that some politically inspired knee jerk reaction to the problems caused by illegal camping by "Gypsies or whoever" will affect the use of our motorhomes in the future.

Mike


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi 

I think Roy had the nearest to reality post, BTW its not Gypsies that are causing the trouble its Travellors in allsorts of flavours not Just the Irish.

We have Gypsies (Proper Gypsies) pass this way every year they camp on the verge a few miles from here and they bother no-one, the verge is tidy when they leave ( I have even got out of my car to look the one day they were there in the morning when I passed but gone by lunch time the verge was spotless Grass was shorter (fuel for the horses they had been filling up for week or so) I could only Just make out were there fire had been.

We dont have the right to park up just anywhere, public land or not, in general we are tolerated though.

The thing is how do we solve the problem ? Please no "final solution" comments please.

Its not as easy as you might think to come up with any kind of solution, shall we try and list a few possibles, can be anything from sites to laws (laws are hard to draft so you dont cause everyone trouble, we all know what a Rambo Knife looks like but they could not draft a law to ban them it always infringed on normal knives)

George


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## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

I think the present laws are adequate.

We don't need any new legislation, simply enforce what we already have. If a group of people camp illegally they are asked to leave, if they don't leave then action should be taken.

If planning regulations are broken, then use the existing powers. 

But at the end of the day WE need to provide suitable sites for people who choose to live in caravans so they have somewhere to live. 

I can appreciate people feeling annoyed by "travellers" setting up shanty towns on their door step and flouting planning laws. But in many cases the "travellers" just want to live in peace like everyone else.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi

I dont get the "WE" need to supply, why do we owe them anything?, most are not even native to this country WE dont owe them anything.

I have no land do you have to provide me with some?, please explain how on earth thats supposed to work.

They do take action but it takes to long under the present legislation.

"But in many cases the "travellers" just want to live in peace like everyone else."

If you want to be left in peace usually you make an effort, these people (most of them) do not make an effort.


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## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

As a society we must take responisibility for the current mess. It's fine to say you can't live here etc etc but there needs to be some alternative place to go.

If WE can't provide an alternative place to go, then travellers are forced to buy land and live on it. Then the red tape begins, WE won't give THEM planning permission to live on THEIR land. Because WE don't want THEM lowering the tone of our area.

I agree there are some bad people out there who cause trouble, dump rubbish and break laws.

Alot of them live in privately owned houses!

Edit to add this link;

http://www.travellerslaw.org.uk/issues.htm


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Jonathon

You neatly side side-stepped the question, If I have no land must some be provided for me? As a UK citizen and Taxpayer if there is free land going I want some. 

Most of these travellors are Foriegn and are not owed anything by US at all, according to what you are saying though, foriegners are entitled to more than us.

If I go to Ireland for example will the Irish provide me with some land Hardstanding free water supply and drainage, oh and it would be nice if they also collected all the rubbish for free too. Immunity from all local laws would be good too ie not having to worry about insurance and road tax etc.

Last part is semi humourous (it is fact under certain conditions though), but why do we owe them anything other than a free one way ticket home.

I dont understand why they are entitled to a free ride, it costs the rest of us why should we provide it for free?


George


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## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

Who said anything about FREE ???



> If I have no land must some be provided for me? As a UK citizen and Taxpayer if there is free land going I want some.


Yes in a word!

If you have no home, then your local council has a duty to provide you with accommodation. They should provide a council house for you to live in. You will have to pay rent for this, it is not free, although you could apply for benifits if you have problems paying.

If you are a traveller then you should be provided with a plot to live on with access to fresh water, sanitation and waste disposal. You will have to pay rent for this, it is not free, although you could apply for benifits if you have problems paying.

Back to the key issue here. These people have bought the land they live on. They OWN it! They are not looking for a FREE plot, they want to live on their own land.

If I bought a plot of land, applied for planning permission to build a luxury 6 bedroom villa with pool, then the council would be more than happy to grant me planning permission.

If I bought a plot of land, applied for planning permission to live in Red Dragon bus, then the council would refuse planning permission.


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## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> most are not even native to this country WE dont owe them anything.


There is no real answer to that is there?

Has you family been on this fine island for the past 2000 years George?


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## bigfoot (May 16, 2005)

There are simple rules to follow. If they have land which has been bought fine, but there are standards of behaviour, which some of these people seem to fail at comprehending. Some householders are equally as bad, try living next to a self-employed builder who has branched out into round the clock car sales! The planning authorities shy away from travellers for fear of contravening their human rights. What about their neighbours' rights? they complain about their rights being infringed we complain about ours being infringed-impasse. The judge, who is supposed to be a wise man will be advised to find in favour of the 'pikeys' for fear of The wrath of the European Court of Justice. The same Europe who probably pushed them over here in the first place.
The main complaint is the fact that these people seem to be untouchable and immune from the meter of the laws which we have to obey.
I'm not suggesting final solutions but these people need to be made aware of there roles and responsibilities as a resident of this country


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jonathon

These people are not paying to stay on these sites, were thay have been provided they have come on wrecked the site then moved on until the council have forked out many thousands to repair open up back they come cycle repeats. The sites are provided for free, pity the travelors dont respect the sites.

What I mean is a citizen of this country, I am not racist in the slightest never have been, but these people do not even try to get on with the locals, why do they not try leaving the place tidy? that would be one step.

I am not bothered whethor they have been here for 1 generation or 20

If they have just started travelling here fresh from Ireland no problem, as long as they pay there dues (we dont owe them benefits) dont leave the place a mess and follow the laws of the land great, no problems.

I do not see that we should

Pay them benefits (unless they are British and have paid taxs etc) we are not talking refugee's here

Provide free Land and facilites as per present system.

Put up with the abuse and lawlessness, why should they be treated better than us while behaving worse?

They do not pay Taxes and always seem to have plenty of dosh, Why are they worth Hundreds of thousands in lottery grants, but the Samaritons and Lifeboats are considered too white and middle class to be afforded a grant Have you ever heard of the Lifeboats not attempting to rescue anyone regardless of race creed or nationality?


The gypsies we see round here leave no trace, the ones we are talking about on here are generally just mobile.............................

The trouble is they have plenty of rights, but they have no responsabilities

George


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

Red Bus seems to suggest that because "they" buy the land they own it and should be allowed to stay and develope it.

The truth is that in most cases these people buy the land through the "Back Door" i.e. They hide behind a third party when buying and are not known and neither is their intention. They then move on to the land.......which could, and often is, be a piece of farmland or whatever and wreck it.

Who are the true enemies of the "travellers"?................Themselves! And who could take the biggest step in addressing the situation........they could!


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## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> These people are not paying to stay on these sites, were thay have been provided they have come on wrecked the site then moved on until the council have forked out many thousands to repair open up back they come cycle repeats. The sites are provided for free, pity the travelors dont respect the sites.


We have a few regulated sites in the Lothians which are provided by the councils, they are not free. The travellers live happily on these sites, cause no trouble and are accepted by the locals.

We have groups who come through the city, park on grass verges, trash the place, leave a pile of rubbish and then go. I agree action should be taken against these people.

These are different people, don't bunch them all up and call them "travellers".


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

Hi Red Bus

Case in question (and check it out):
30+ years ago I bought a house in the quite village of Ash, Kent. But unfortunately did not buy the orchard that was on offer at the same time. It was bought by a secret devenloper (Gypsy, Traveller whatever) it was 
then sub divided into over 50 plots and sold to individuals....guess who?

Within a year over 40 travellers had moved on and totally WRECKED the place. Not only the orchard but made the adjacent farmland un-farmable. The farmer, after a few arson attacks abandoned the land. Many, many thousands of pound later they have been moved to a purpose built site several hundred yards away for which they agreed to site 20 units.......40 units later etc etc. A total wreck and no-go area.

My time in Ash?......Me personally. 3 house breakin's, 4 cars stollen, One dog killed in a garage breakin. windows smashed, No go area on friday/sat night, local pub closed after landlord beaten, local post office closed, armed police raids, that closed the village for whole days resulted in the biggest stollen car site ever foundetc etc etc. Oh yes, nearly forgot....One murder. 

Personally it stopped for me when my then 11 year old daughter was assaulted..........Not being afforded the protection I think I was entitled too I finally took the law into my own hands. Amazing what a 12 gauge sorted out! Never had anymore problems........but have now left it all behind.


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

red_dragon_bus said:


> If you have no home, then your local council has a duty to provide you with accommodation. They should provide a council house for you to live in.


What planet are you living on? have you never seen the people sleeping on the streets of most of our city's

Doug...


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## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

Detourer said:


> Hi Red Bus
> 
> Case in question (and check it out):
> 30+ years ago I bought a house in the quite village of Ash, Kent. But unfortunately did not buy the orchard that was on offer at the same time. It was bought by a secret devenloper (Gypsy, Traveller whatever) it was
> ...


Can't argue with that, but not every traveller is like that.


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## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

Doug60 said:


> red_dragon_bus said:
> 
> 
> > If you have no home, then your local council has a duty to provide you with accommodation. They should provide a council house for you to live in.
> ...


That probably has alot to do with the "right to buy" scheme Lady Thatcher was so keen on in the 80's.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jonathon

Scotland doesnt seem to suffer the Scum problem that we are talking about here, probably due to different laws and better enforecement.

Down here its been going on for years and I am not talking hippy types, we are talking about the people who defile a site and expect it to be sorted to their liking by the time they get back, Its their "rights" 

They want their rights respected but they dont care about anyone elses.

We do not have a duty to fund everything for these people

George


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## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Jonathon
> 
> Scotland doesnt seem to suffer the Scum problem that we are talking about here, probably due to different laws and better enforecement.
> 
> ...


We do get the occasional visit. :wink: I agree that the bad element should be dealt with to the full extent of the law. I don't have a problem with that at all.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Right we are getting somewhere

the true Gypsies romanies only use a bit of grass verge and leave no mess so they are OK

I agree the others have a hard time with planning permission, but anyone would have difficulty getting the same permission, its not a race thing (not always, ie they play the race card to often)


Doesnt help that they keep getting grants only to disapear with the money !

George


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## 91929 (May 1, 2005)

One problem here is that the group in question actually bought the land, then built what I presume to be a toilet block - or perhaps a comunal bike shed - near to a posh village

They - the gipo's - claim they want a place to live to be able to send kids to school (and claim benefits)

Howard claims that you cannot add an extension to your house withut lanning permission
You can add an extension - up to a certain percentage of the total volume of thee existing building without permission _ info obtained from our local planning dept.

Its all blown up as a vote catcher - along with the woman who has now had an opeeration on her arm
Pepole are using Howard to get their cause in the media

Agree though that ALL campers are regarded as gypo's by a certain element because of the action of them we are all under suspicion


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## phoenix (May 9, 2005)

Several folks on here seem to think paying council tax means they are 'tax payers' and entitled to moan about 'non tax payers'

In my booklet received with this years council tax demand, there is a long list of those exempt from paying council tax - including those living in religious buildings (I'm thinking of turning my home into a ministry for the bewildered:lol: )

The fact is, it is *your choice *to live in a building subject to council tax and *everyone* else pays on taxes on everything they buy.

If they didn't leave the mess and be so 'aggressive'?, they would be made more welcome. Its nothing to do with what they do or don't pay, in my view.

Lyn


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## 90172 (May 1, 2005)

can we agree on this then;
the law in this country is useless when it comes to ;-
1/ enforcing the rights of the ordinary bloke/ lady
2/ protecting the ordinary bloke/lady
3/ detecting crimes against the ordinary bloke/lady
the bad element of ANY society must be dealt with no matter what.
unfortunately we do not do this and THIS is where the system fails.
it is too much of a problem to deal with these elements and force them to abide by the law.

I would like to make a comment on the must provide accomodation thing

7 years ago I came back to N wales from the south having been there for 2 years working. I aksed to go on the council list as I was disabled now and unable to work any longer and I was informed that I had "no connection to the area"
my mother and father, my daughters [5]all live here. i had lived here for the last 40 years excluding my time in the army and the time down south. 
I got a house and paid rent but only got a very small part paid for me by the benefits having to find the rest myself because as a single man I was not entitled to have a house. I was not entitled to anything other than a bed sit and they didn't have any but there are plenty here {rhyl. all crap slums tho]. they tried their best to force me out of the house.
the year after all this my friend has a single man living next to him in a 3 bed council house. this single man is an assylum seeker. they also provided all his furniture for him and also a tv [flat screen] and hi fi.
I wonder what his connection to the area was?
racist? me ? getting there!!!!!!


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## 88787 (May 9, 2005)

> George
> Scotland doesnt seem to suffer the Scum problem that we are talking about here, probably due to different laws and better enforecement.


Wrong / Correct :? ?
We do have the same problem (with the scum element) up here, however we have been tackling it in a different way.
For example: Last year, we as a company, had 3 "families" camp next to one of our warehouses within a small industrial site. The occupation was effected on a Friday evening and duly recorded on CCTV. Over the weekend more "families" arrived and the area began to take on the characteristics of a bomb site. On the Monday morning the abuse against members of staff started and some attempts were made to break in to the warehouse. To keep a long story short, police and lawyers were involved and the cost of eviction rose dramatically to a 5-figure sum. 
Result ? - The "families" decided they had taken enough harrassment :? and decided to move on leaving enough broken tarmac/garden refuse/sh*t/gas bottles/general rubbish to fill a crater.
Personally, I don't know anyone up here who has anything against "Gypsies", but when it comes to the "Scum element" moving in and harrassing locals as well as creating filth - well, that's just taking things a bit too far. 
Owning a conversion (George) rather than the conventional MH, I have been tarred (once) with the same brush . After much persuasion from Freda, I decided against driving 70 miles to prove we were bona-fida MHers 8)

Detourer: Don't know if I agree with the 12-guage as you would probably end up as the guilty party (again), but if there are 20 of THEM, why not take 39 mates and a few beers to the site for a bit of a chat?

Regards.


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

> Detourer: Don't know if I agree with the 12-guage as you would probably end up as the guilty party (again), but if there are 20 of THEM, why not take 39 mates and a few beers to the site for a bit of a chat?


Mmmmm........Discission didn't come lightly, but 30 years talk = nothing. 5 mins action = problem solved.


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## 89079 (May 13, 2005)

I have followed this topic with interest but have resisted posting till now.

Just to say that I feel once we start to label and judge a disparate group of individuals in the way some have expressed, reasoned consideration of social problems such as this becomes imposable.

Some peoples have obviously had extremely unpleasant and inexcusable experiences, but their grievances are with individuals (and perhaps the law), not a disparate and ill defined group.

History should show us the results of marginalising and demonising people in the way we seem to be doing more and more. Once we can convince ourselves that a group is suficiantly evil, inferior or just different there is no end to the depths people will go to find a neat "solution" to the problem.

---
Steven


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## Vita (May 16, 2005)

*Gypsies*

We should all have to live by the laws of the country, whether we are gypsies, travellers or motorhomers, and if we decide not to it's just tough if we get prosecuted.

Vita


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## Drummer (May 9, 2005)

Somethings never change. Got this from the Jeruselem Mirror 3rd August 30AD
*Local man helps out*
Jesus was administering to the infirm one day. He laid hands upon one poor soul who was lame and afterwards he was able to get up and walk. He then laid hands upon a blind man who was then able to see again. He was about to lay hands upon a third man who said "Don't touch me; I'm on incapacity benefit"


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

OK time for my tuppence worth.
Well done Drummer like your post m8!!!!
When I left the Navy, after serving Queen and country, I applied to my local council for somewhere to live whilst I found a job etc. Someone posted that the council is duty bound to provide accommodation, well my council told me that if I was foreign and had six kids they could home me straight away but being a poor Englishman didn't give me enough points so keep checking with them every six months or so..... That was in 1979 and I don't think it has changed much now.
I think the thread was basically regarding the difference between what we consider to be them and us?
One starting point could be that "us" could produce a receipt for the vehicles that we use, also we could show a valid certificate of insurance. We don't leave junk etc laying around for the overstretched council budget to clear up after us and we would certainly pack up and leave any time we were asked to do so without the requirement of a court order.
As someone else pointed out the law in inadequate because everyone is frightened of everything in these days of political correctness. I'm firmly in the anti PC lobby, say it the way it is... And if you are wrong be big enough to admit it and apologize.
I have long held a belief that anyone wishing to come to this country should be welcome, and they should do a two year National Service stint. They would be homed, fed, clothed, taught the language and customs of our country and would be taught to put something into the country. At the end of this stint they would be given citizenship and would be entitled to everything that the indigenous population are entitled to. I also think Nat Service should be compulsory for our own people as I believe it would go a long way to sorting out the problems of the country and find work for idle hands etc.
If the law cannot be imposed because someone doesn't have a permanent address then maybe the local Her Majesties Prison would provide such suitable address for the law to be served. 
Thanks all I feel much better now I've got that off my chest, and at the next election I will vote for the party that I feel is at least trying to tell me the truth and put the Great back into Britain and not allowing this once Green and Pleasant land to become a haven for the dross of the world.
Keith


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## 89079 (May 13, 2005)

> I have long held a belief that anyone wishing to come to this country should be welcome, and they should do a two year National Service stint.


It would be interesting to see how the premiership would manage with most of the best players unavailable for 2 years ;-)

Also wonder what the likes Maddona would make of your offer that she:-



> would be homed, fed, clothed, taught the language and customs of our country


Come on, you can't really be serious.


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Hi Steven
Of course I'm serious. are you? Whether or not we have footballers available to entertain people and earn obscene salaries should not obviate the requirement to sort out the problems of this once great country. I can't believe that having footballers available is more important to you than the mountain of very important issues facing our country. I also seem to think that if people were so talented as to represent their town, county or country then the forces allow them to have suitable postings to allow this to happen. Whilst they were serving they would be able to train and pass on their skills to others around them and that would only be a boost to the game of football. Imagine talented players with respect, dignity and discipline, that would be novel, we may even repeat 1966!!!!
National service was good enough for Elvis I seem to remember, and as far as Maddona's feelings towards "my offer", I will ask her next time I see her. Incidentally I did not make any offer to anyone, I just suggested a possible scenario. However if all people were required by law to give up two years to do National Service, such as is the case in Holland and Israel I believe, then everyone would be treated the same way and the pinko commie left wing softies who think that everyone is abused or mistreated in some way and need their kind of salvation, would have nothing to complain about, but they would then find a different topic. 
Personally if I were trying to escape persecution somewhere or just being a financial migrant, which a lot of these people are, and I had to be subjected to the kind of regime I suggested, I would think twice about going there in the first place. Is this not what we, the british people want? We would then be better placed to assist the genuine people who want to come here and live, and treat them far better than the way they are currently abused by our immigration policies, and they wouldn't be victims of people who take advantage of them and force them to work illegally, without insurance and suitable legal protection, for a pittance, whilst the gang leaders make a fortune.
We as a nation may also have the financial strength and manpower to sort out really nasty problems such as some of the African states, Thailand and the surrounding area or even give our pensioners a decent pension so they didn't have to ask for handouts. 
As a secondary byproduct we would also have fewer people roaming around the countryside and the estimated 5000 pitches available may in fact be sufficient, and if not we would have the wherewithal to provide extra accommodation for these people. 
The additional finance would be supported by us having to pay out less in freebie handouts to anyone who manages to clamber aboard Great Britain and hold there hands out.
Sorry if this is a bit blunt but I think the time is upon us where we need to express our views openly and honestly, maybe someone in power (or soon to be) will read posts like this and act upon it.
Keith


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## 89079 (May 13, 2005)

Hello kands

No I was not being completely serious. I was just trying to illustrate what I see as some flaws in your sugestions in a lighthearted way.

No need to apologize to me for being blunt. In many ways you reinforce my views as what _you_ might call a "pinko commie left wing softy" very well. ;-)


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Hi
I sincerely hope that you are not visited by the travelling community who may set up "camp" in your front yard and find homogeneity with you and yours. I think that if any of us were / are / have been victims of this minority of people trashing and abusing our human / civil rights then a different song would be heard, and believe me, if this scourge isn't brought to an abrupt halt then more and more of the decent people WILL be victims.
And to return to the original thread, we as a group of motorhomers, will be marginalised and tarred with the same brush, in my humble opinion.
Keith


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi all

Services for what you pay? 

I pay £3,300 National Non Domestic rates for my business which entitles me to absolutely nothing, not even a single bin emptying, businesses have to pay to have any rubbish removed privately. If I were to fly tip Massive fine £20,000 and possibly 6 months Jail.

Exception, if your an intinerant scumbag earning cash in hand, clearing gardens, rubble and rubbish you can Just dump it at your roadside plot and when you move the local council will come and clear it up for you for free.

The law on fly tipping does not seem to be applied if your mobile scumbag

This came to mind because a business I know locally as a tribe of scumbags parked outside is business, He is having a new plating line fitted and its costing him £2,500 to have the old line removed, yet Just outside they are dumping rubble and rubbish.

The vehicles are all new Vans and Caravans, Strangely the Vans all have Irish plates and no TAX and the caravans all have German number plates.

Last time this group were here, a Brand new unregistered Land Rover disapeared from another local business on the same day they disapeared. It was never recovered. It was seen in convoy leaving the area, do you think the police will interview the group?

Speeding it as been admitted OTR that the police, just ignore if its mobile scum because the paperwork just mounts up and it never gets anywhere. So therefore will remain unsolved (not the speeding but the unpaid fine becomes a criminal offence, something along those lines anyway). Arresting them on the spot is out of the question human rights, and trying to serve paperwork is an exercise in futility, strangely though if you are British and cannot identify yourself to the police and cannot answer a few questions about the ownership of the vehicle you can be arrested until your Identity and address have been confirmed, unfortunately not being an ethnic minority we don't seem to be accorded the same freedom to break the law at will, btw I dont want the RIGHT to break the law and get away with it, I just dont want these people to have that RIGHT

The problem is that they have all the rights and none of the responsabilities.

I am loathe to call them Gypsies because they are not, scumbags fits the bill neatly

George

PS I had the same thing when leaving the Army, No points, No housing and yes its still the same (worse actually because less housing available)


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## Road_Runner_644 (May 9, 2005)

I have always felt that the police seem to turn a blind eye to offences commited by travellers. 

But to my surprise, listening to the East Midlands news on BBC1 a few minutes ago I hear that the Police have raided a travellers site near Great Oxendon, Market Harborough (Presumably the "official" council site). They have recovered half a million quids worth of cars, vans and caravans that they suspect are either stolen and ringed, or purchased with money made from money laundering or other illegal activities. They have arrested more than half a dozen people. There were pictues shown of all the vehicles in a police pound.

It couldn't be another April fool joke could it


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## 89987 (May 1, 2005)

I now live not far from Michael Howards constituency, and 2 miles from an 'official gypsy/travellers site'. There are no problems, and the local authority (Tory controlled) operate a good site. The residents mainly work on casual construction sites, pay their taxes and generally keep good order. I can't see why more 'official sites' cannot be made available for these people, which would solve the problem that occurs in other parts of the country.

Personally I find 'static caravan sites' which are for tourists inside national parks an undesirable blot on the landscape. This is one reason why I bought a motorhome. I can travel and enjoy the countryside and leave no permenant footprint where I travel. If there are to be permenant traveller sites, then why not create agreed locations for these people and solve the problem that way.

I think the proposed criminalisation of travellers will just create more problems, and just an indication there's an election on the horizon. The Tories are mistaken to think that getting a few extra votes by pandering to some peoples prejdidices will not gain them respect in the longer term. I suggest local authorities be given planning responsibility for official sites for permenent travellers and gypsies, and if any political party has a policy of forcing the Wales Tourist Board, Visit Scotland, and English Tourism to establish a network of Aires in the UK, then they get my vote.


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## 89146 (May 15, 2005)

It is a shame that one group of people are being tarred by the same brush by so many of the "settled" population. There are good and bad across all social boundaries. For example, having lived on "good" estates of owner occupied trade/professional people, I have seen lawn clippings hurled over into someone else's garden, soiled nappies dumped in hedges, litter and dog poo everywhere. No country lane is complete without the obligatory sofa, abandoned fridge and burned out car. Over here there was a radio talk in recently about the problem of people having picnics on the beach then leaving all their rubbish behind blowing in the wind, used disposable nappies and condoms included.
It is a disgusting way to behave and not limited to travellers, or any social group. As far as "official" sites go, yes that must be a good idea but again, there was a story in the press about one such site, newly constructed and a number of travelling families moved in with no trouble or mess, then a new family came in, intimidated everyone and smashed the place up including all the new washrooms.
Regarding paying taxes, there are plenty of people again across all boundaries who are part of the black economy and benefit fraud is running wild. How many MPs are fiddling their expenses?

And yes, they can and do use motorhomes, but do tuggers find problems because travellers use caravans as well?

I am not particularly pro or anti "travellers" but I am against any person who behaves in an intimidating manner, lies, cheats and leaves a mess in public or private YES even a cigarette end whether they live in a caravan, motorhome, council flat, luxury detached house or whatever.

Rant over!

Gill


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Yes we all have a right to somewhere to live and on that matter I have no problems with anyone if they choose to make their home in a caravan or a motorhome. Each to their own I say - BUT like all of us we have to pay for where we live and we have to live within the law etc. Providing people pay their way in life and do not break any laws - then that is fine by me. But to just set up on someones land without permission and then to leave total chaos and vandalism behind etc - in my opinion there is NO excuse for that and landowners need protection and should have certain rights too. No-one should expect to get a free ride in life and we all have to live by certain codes of conduct and decency and this should apply to everyone throughout all walks of life and it is irrelevant to me what means of dwelling you choose to live in as long as you pay for that priviledge just like everyone else has to.

Our town was once taken over one Christmas from the travelling community. Hundreds turned up and took over our car parks and our sea front and it was total mayham. Children ran amock terrorising the townsfolk and all the pubs for 20 miles around were forced to shut all over Christmas and New Year due to all the violence and fighting that went on and as a result many shops (because of the shoplifting - especially from the children who seemed totally out of control) and all the pubs lost thousands of pounds of much needed Christmas revenue. Sadly this is the kind of behaviour that gives travellers such a bad reputation and makes it difficult for those travellers that live decently and within the law. I know we cannot and must NOT tar everyone with the same brush but if you had been a resident of our town at the time - you would know just how terrible it was and seeing really was believing. It was very frightening and some of the things that went on were just almost impossible to comprehend. Obviously the town was left with a huge clean up bill and an obvious suspicion of all travellers.

Sonesta


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## 89031 (May 12, 2005)

*The Gypsy thing*

Well this topic has stirred up some thoughts hasn't it.

Surely it is very easy to differenciate between a gypsies - tinkers-travellers motor home and a motorhomers motorhome - because motorhomes is what we is talking about isn't it?

The answer is one PROBABLY has a valid tax disc and the other PROBABLY doesn't.

As far as us being tarred with the same brush - my wife is Irish - not classing herself as a gypsy, Tinker, Traveller or any other roaming vandal, we always get spoken to at car boots -cos we sell from the van - by the proper "Travelling" comunity - who seem to live at them - spoken to about our home that is.

Their first recation to us is that we are "ONE OF THEM" - most of "THEM" being quite nice people.

However, we have witnessed the nasty side of their fratenity when a golf club and pick axe were taken to the head of someone that had upset them and yes the police were called. They turned up 4 hours after the event.

Apparently they ALWAYS settle a debt. It is their way!!

ID cards sounds like a novel way of deciding who is legal and who isn't - or is that another topic?


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

The travellers who descended upon our town and created havoc had some truly magnificent caravans and motorhomes not to mention RV's too. So how do you differentiate trecker? At the end of the day I don't really care what vehicle they own or how much it cost etc. As long as the occupant/occupants are decent human beings with respect for the environment around them, the people around them, pay their dues in life and uphold the laws of the land then I have no probs with these people whatsoever. Good luck to them I say and if they prefer to live on the open road and flit from one place to another - then so be it and they get my blessing totally. But to trespass, steal, vandalise and terrorise is totally out of order and those sort are the scum of the earth in my opinion.
Sonesta


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## dodger148 (May 9, 2005)

Well said Sonesta. Tend to agree with you


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## Vita (May 16, 2005)

*Politics, gypsies and M/Homes*

Gypsies and travellers aren't the same thing - the Irish lot are travellers. Gypsies belong to a particular culture and are most usually not the ones who cause offence.

Vita


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## 89146 (May 15, 2005)

> Gypsies belong to a particular culture


And the "Irish lot" don't?

I think we are playing with words here and need to be careful not to appear to offend anyone, not all travellers are the same wherever they come from. Watch the film "Into the West" if you want to find out about Irish "traveller" culture.......



> Good luck to them I say and if they prefer to live on the open road and flit from one place to another - then so be it and they get my blessing totally. But to trespass, steal, vandalise and terrorise is totally out of order and those sort are the scum of the earth in my opinion


I think this says it all. Well said, Sonesta.

Gill


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi all

Somewhere recently I listed a whole load of different groups Irish, Scottish Travellors, Gypsies, tinkers Its very difficult to spot the difference except to say some groups are pretty legal and civilised AND some are Just totally antisocial the antisocial group, usually start making a mess straight away, I have never yet seen the "trouble" group in motorhomes.


There are real Gypsies amongst the people I know and am friends with and they are nothing like the dross that we are talking about here.


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## 89122 (May 14, 2005)

> Irish, Scottish Travellors, Gypsies, tinkers


What abought the English ones aswell


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