# Another leisure battery failure



## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

Whilst checking out the M/H yesterday in advance of the Newbury Show I noticed that the leisure battery voltage dropped dramatically a few minutes after putting it on a 2.5a load (to around 10.7v).

So out came the battery onto the bench for checking over, and it was very soon established that a single cell had gone AWOL. Using a hydrometer on each cell in turn revealed that five cells were reading at the top of the scale whereas the other was not registering at all - new battery now on the way.

This is the second time I've had the same problem on this van, both times on good quality batteries (currently an expensive Exide) that have been kept "float charged" from the CBE van charger or an "Optimate lll" float charger at all times.

So the question is - why does this happen? How can it be avoided? Why does a single cell within a battery suddenly fail completely whilst the others remain in excellent order? Could it be something to do with the charger or charging routine.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Was it the same cell location that failed on both batteries.How old were each battery when they failed.Did you replace like for like, or different make.

cabby


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## WildThingsKev (Dec 29, 2009)

Bad luck. I stopped leaving mine on charge a few years ago when my original Banners started fading earlier than expected. I even leave the solar panel disconnected and only give the (gel) leisure batteries a 12 hour charge about every 6 weeks if the van isnt being driven any distance. The vehicle battery gets a fortnightly chage by a small ctek charger.

Ive read that (if desired) a long term storage charge should be about 13.2v but no motorhome chargers offer this.

Kev


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Cell failure is normally through crystal growth through the cell plate separator material. It shorts the plates and kills the cell completely.

It's a chemical thing and occasionally zapping the battery with a heavy load will help, but it is something all batteries are prone to in time.

Peter


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

listerdiesel said:


> Cell failure is normally through crystal growth through the cell plate separator material. It shorts the plates and kills the cell completely.
> 
> It's a chemical thing and occasionally zapping the battery with a heavy load will help, but it is something all batteries are prone to in time.
> 
> Peter


That almost sounds like an inverter is a good thing to keep a battery in good health.


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

listerdiesel said:


> Cell failure is normally through crystal growth through the cell plate separator material. It shorts the plates and kills the cell completely.


Sounds as if that's what has happened Peter, battery was all good a couple of weeks ago but one cell completely dead when I tried it on Monday.

Do you think the long term float charge is a contributory factor? Maybe I should drop the float charge like Kev says and only charge every couple of weeks? This is the second battery I've had fail on this van in exactly the same way which makes me suspicious about the CBE charger.

Just to make life even more traumatic, the replacement I ordered on Monday (with 24hr courier delivery) still hasn't turned up and we're due at Newbury tomorrow.


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

How about this trick:






E&OE + the standard Blue Peter advisory!


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

As a good Yorkshireman you'll like this.
Get yourself a Maypole MP7423 smart charger. It does all the things a Ctek does but costs much less and is ideal for long term maintenance.
I laid up my Nissan for 4 months over winter. Took the battery out and connected it to the Maypole for the whole period.
When I came home installed the battery back into the car and it started first turn.
It consistently gets first class reviews and is availabe on Amazon for £25.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

gaspode said:


> *Do you think the long term float charge is a contributory factor? *Maybe I should drop the float charge like Kev says and only charge every couple of weeks? This is the second battery I've had fail on this van in exactly the same way which makes me suspicious about the CBE charger.


Ken

I also shall be interested in Peter's advice on that.

Geoff


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

Spacerunner said:


> As a good Yorkshireman you'll like this


Yorkshireman????

You can be arrested for casting a slur like that John. :wink2:

Could it possibly be my reputation for thrift that's fooled you? :grin2:


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

gaspode said:


> Yorkshireman????
> 
> You can be arrested for casting a slur like that John. :wink2:
> 
> Could it possibly be my reputation for thrift that's fooled you? :grin2:


Crikey Ken.....I thought.....blimey!!!

Apologies. :surprise:


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

I suppose it begs the question, anyone else you know with a Rapido of your era who has had the same issue after leaving on continuous charge.


I know with Hymers you should not do it according to Hambilton, a definite no no he said.


I used to let the solar do its bit and maybe in winter stick on charge overnight before going away.


Paul.


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

I have left my hymer on EHU at home 24/7 when not out in it for 7 years now, did change batteries this winter but not because of failed cell(s).

Dick


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

Glandwr said:


> I have left my hymer on EHU at home 24/7 when not out in it for 7 years now, did change batteries this winter but not because of failed cell(s).
> 
> Dick


Yes, that's always been our experience up to now, never a problem - and every van we've had has used the same CBE charger. I'm wondering if the one on this van is a rogue unit - or maybe it's just coincidence that two successive batteries fail due to a single cell going down? The CBE units are not exclusive to Rapido, probably the most common charger in use on continental vans

I always leave the van on mains hook-up with the solar turned off so as not to invite over-charging.

BTW: New battery still not arrived, if it doesn't turn up early tomorrow we may be using candlelight at Newbury. :surprise:


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

Spacerunner said:


> Crikey Ken.....I thought.....blimey!!!
> 
> Apologies. :surprise:


Apology graciously accepted John. :grin2:

Now think about it - have you ever heard me say "ee bah gum"?

There are two sides to the Pennines and never the twain shall meet (well, not without a punch-up about the strength of the beer anyway). :wink2:


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## lgbzone (Oct 8, 2008)

I don't think leaving on a float charge would be the direct cause, but rather the lack of an equalisation stage in the charge profile. your battery was obviously wet lead acid so periodic equalisation is required to stop the sulfation forming hard crystals and will also even out the gravity through the battery, maybe try once or twice a year putting the batteries on a good charger in the house that includes an equalisation stage.

the ideal float voltage would depend on the battery type and agm are far less prone to sulfation and gel shouldn't be equalised at all.

Lee

p.s. i don't think it's really correct to blanket state batteries in hymers (for example) shouldn't be float charged, in my view it would be the combination of charger and battery that may have an issue, not the vehicle they're in.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Looking across what we have in service in the UK, I'd say that industry doesn't generally have as much trouble with wet Lead-Acid batteries than it does with sealed types.

Wet batteries are far more tolerant of charging and discharging errors, but do need maintenance, which is why the utility companies rushed into VRLA batteries before their needs were fully understood.

Our equipment that we sell for substation use has a recommendation that batteries are tested for capacity at 4 years life on float, and if OK then further service is indicated. We don't see too much in the way of cell failures these days, but it does happen if the batteries are past their sell by date as it were. We generally say that VRLA are good for 5 years, the '10 year' VRLA don't come up to spec in our experience.

We did a big replacement job in the North London area around last Xmas time, just over a tonne of batteries, 50% were 10 years old, all were VRLA and had split cases where internal cell growth and plate corrosion had forced the cells apart.

All sealed batteries should not be boost charged, their cell recombination is not robust enough to handle the gassing that results.

Our AGM batteries in the Mercedes are floating around 14v which they seem happy at, the controller takes them up to 14.2v, holds them for a while at that then lets them drop to 13.6v, then repeats the cycle.

The settings of the charger MUST suit the battery type, there is no 'catch all' setting for all.

Peter


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

Battery just arrived - about time too, just in time to get to Newbury this afternoon.

I'm fitting a Varta H3 100a/h so we'll see how this one performs.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

gaspode said:


> Battery just arrived - about time too, just in time to get to Newbury this afternoon.
> 
> I'm fitting a Varta H3 100a/h so we'll see how this one performs.


Phew!

But have you only got one LB?

Enjoy Newbury - reply when you get back.

G


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

nicholsong said:


> Phew!
> 
> But have you only got one LB?


Yes, only one battery, but with 180watts of solar power it isn't often a problem

Today is an exception with dark grey skies and lots of the damp stuff but all is well, just having to run the gennie for an hour - first time for about 5 years.


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

gaspode said:


> Yes, only one battery, but with 180watts of solar power it isn't often a problem
> 
> Today is an exception with dark grey skies and lots of the damp stuff but all is well, just having to run the gennie for an hour - first time for about 5 years.


I have a very similar set up. 140 wotsits of solar panel paired with a single Banner 95ah battery.
During 4 months in Spain and Portugal over winter we only had to use a genny for 1 hour. The weather wasn't particularly sunny and we were static off grid for two months of that time.
It seems that the panels and battery are better balanced, and the panels can top up the battery to full every day even when it's a bit cloudy.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Why so much solar and such small storage capacity? that seems a waste of roof space and payload not to mention wind resistance for no real purpose, not being an expert I'd say it's the wrong way round, I always go for 2 x 125ah LBs or more if space and a single 100w panel, and most of the time it keeps up, after night off EHU watching TV, lights showers Washing up, the LBs are still 12v + and by noon are back to fully charged.


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Why so much solar and such small storage capacity? that seems a waste of roof space and payload not to mention wind resistance for no real purpose, not being an expert I'd say it's the wrong way round, I always go for 2 x 125ah LBs or more if space and a single 100w panel, and most of the time it keeps up, after night off EHU watching TV, lights showers Washing up, the LBs are still 12v + and by noon are back to fully charged.


Alternatively. Batteries weigh much more than solar panels. It's much easier, if necessary, to increase battery capacity than panel capacity and as for wind resistance you're 'avin' a larf.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Spacerunner said:


> Alternatively. Batteries weigh much more than solar panels. It's much easier, if necessary, to increase battery capacity than panel capacity and as for wind resistance you're 'avin' a larf.


Go easy - Kev is not well today, as he posted elsewhere - and it shows:wink2:

Sometimes there is more windage in Kev's posts than in a solar panel.

Kev, has the medication kicked in yet - hope so.:smile2:

Geoff


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Spacerunner said:


> Alternatively. Batteries weigh much more than solar panels. It's much easier, if necessary, to increase battery capacity than panel capacity and as for wind resistance you're 'avin' a larf.


I'd rather carry the weight and save elsewhere (empty waste and cassette) and as ASDA says, every little helps


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> Go easy - Kev is not well today, as he posted elsewhere - and it shows:wink2:
> 
> Sometimes there is more windage in Kev's posts than in a solar panel.
> 
> ...


Arse :roll: yup ta, a bit less pain, going to have lunch in a bit, so ready for it, but need to eat to take the damned drugs, but as a back up I have this stuff if it gets too bad, it's similar to what the teggy doctor give you before he sticks a needle in your gum.


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## lgbzone (Oct 8, 2008)

I agree with Kev; for us and our usage pattern, that would provide surplus solar in relation to the battery storage capacity.

i have 90w and 80w panels so 170w total that supply the main bank of two 105ah batteries, this bank in turn uses a csb2 to float the engine battery and another csb2 to charge/float a 115ah battery dedicated for inverter use (which we hardly ever use), our biggest use of solar is when we go abroad and mostly use aires and wild and our batteries are also full by lunch time, that's with four people; me, the wife, and two teenage kids, we all have electrical gadgets etc, especially the kids that carry practically every chargeable item that exists (or at least that's how it feels).

i could imagine having, what to me is, surplus solar would be useful if touring more in the uk as you need to harvest more energy in a smaller amount of time, but we have never had an issue with that either and we always carry the tv when in the uk.

it may be worth considering the DOD of the battery/batteries; i believe that with two batteries if the capacity was going down to 75% in an evening (just a theoretical figure), all else being equal it would be down to 50% with a single battery. again all else being equal; i believe two batteries discharged half as much would have a far longer lifespan, meaning better value in the long run. Not sure i've explained that very well. my main batteries are lucas agm @ £90 each and were 9 years old at the beginning of this month, but i'm not saying that's down to the solar.

Lee


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## lgbzone (Oct 8, 2008)

hope you feel better soon Kev


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Generally speaking we try and keep the nighest possible input from solar as it is free and doesn't need any attention, but the ratio of battery capacity to solar will vary between vans, and self-builds tend to have more freedom/space where to site theirs compared with commercial stuff.

Bearing in mind that you will never get the rated output from a solar panel in the UK, I usually double up on panels, we have 4 X 100W running 2 X 12V 225AH batteries.

The big worry is always going to be recharging after a long discharge, so there are 2 X 50A chargers in there as well  

In bed with chemo after effects today so can sympathise with Kev.

Peter


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

listerdiesel said:


> Generally speaking we try and keep the nighest possible input from solar as it is free and doesn't need any attention, but the ratio of battery capacity to solar will vary between vans, and self-builds tend to have more freedom/space where to site theirs compared with commercial stuff.
> 
> Bearing in mind that you will never get the rated output from a solar panel in the UK, I usually double up on panels, we have 4 X 100W running 2 X 12V 225AH batteries.
> 
> ...


I'm sure you'd rather have toothache Peter given a choice, I feel a little better, the gel helped me to get off, til the drugs kicked in, been up since 5 though.


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