# Tow Bar Movement!!!!



## Swanny (Nov 14, 2007)

I recently had a bespoke tow bar fitted to my Carthago Mondial 58DRH on an Iveco Daily 6 ton chassis by Watling Engineers in St Albans as I intended to tow my car which weighs 1240jg on a Brian James A4 twin axle trailer. Today I picked up the trailer ready to load up and take the ferry to Denmark tomorrow (Tuesday). I wasn't happy that four bolts stuck up from the new tow bar barely three millimetres from the underside of the fibreglass skin of the van so a friend came to cut them off above the nut. While there he stood on the towbar and announced that there was a fair bit of movement! Actually, about 5 to 8mm of vertical movement. Now I'm really worried it's not up to the job. The tow bar is bolted directly to the main Iveco ladder chassis in two places on each side, but it is about two metres long due to the overhang. It looks pretty tough to be fair and when I asked the engineer if the protruding bolts could impact the floor of the van he said,I won't get any movement. Not so with an 85kg man bouncing on it. 

I will call them in the morning looking for reassurance but whatever they say I'm not sure I will feel reassured. Should I be worried???


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## HurricaneSmith (Jul 13, 2007)

There was a fascinating thread regarding tow bar movement that ran from November 2012 until finally resolved in April 2013.

It contains much sound advice, and you might like to quickly read it before telephoning your installer on Tuesday:

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-132396.html&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=towbar&start=0


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## Swanny (Nov 14, 2007)

Thanks, I have read that long thread already. The difference here is that my tow bar is not bolted to the original chassis extensions, they were correctly diagnosed as not being up to the job. Carthago themselves said they are not designed to take a towbar, only to offer some support below the garage. 

My tow bar is bolted directly to the original, substantial chassis members which are the thick, girder type not the pressed metal fabricated boxes on lighter (but excellent!) vans. I feel they have done the best that could have been done to make a tow bar but there is still some movement which concerns me. If the overhang and subsequent length of the tow bar extensions were deemed too long for a strong tow bar I would have accepted that but they went ahead and built one so I assume it is strong enough. 

I spoke with a friend yesterday and he said a bit of movement is ok. I'm in the camp that it should not move at all. After all, the trailer will be weigh around 1900kgs and being a twin axle trailer, the lateral pressure when manoeuvring will be substantial I think. 

My ferry is tonight at 18:00 so I'm in a kind of panic really.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

I can understand your panic Swanny, but I can do little to help other than to offer my opinion - which is no more infallible than your own or any other non-expert on the forum! 

I went to Watling Towbars for mine, largely because they have such an excellent reputation. The aspect I liked best was their absolute refusal to fit anything which would not be 100% safe. I wanted to carry a small scooter on the back, but after doing the calculations they said that their towbar would carry it with ease, but it would exceed the rear axle capacity of the van, and possibly even make the steering too light. They said they would fit a towbar, but would not sell me a scooter rack, and that if I did go ahead and carry one it was against their strong recommendation . . . which they put in writing on the paperwork.

They were very nice about all this, and highly professional. I did get them to fit a towbar, and I use it for towing a trailer.

Hope this helps a bit - though not in any practical way of course.

I presume you have been underneath with a spanner? It is just possible the mechanic was called away or distracted halfway through the job, and failed to tighten all the nuts. He's only human after all, and it could happen.

Dave


P.S. A further thought. Is it really "movement" as such, or is it just that the length of the towbar and fittings allows it to flex a bit? 5 - 8mm is not much movement over a total distance of several metres.

Steel is a very elastic medium, and it's surprising how it will bend a bit under stress - even when it's built like a brick outhouse. Go underneath and feel all the bolts while someone jumps up and down on the towball. You will soon know if any of the joints are not secure enough.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

I'm curious as to Watling's response. As Zeb says, they are highly responsible and professional structural engineers, no question.

Dave


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

It was me who started the thread alluded to earlier in this post.

The specific problem I experienced on a VERY early X250 Fiat chassis was that the actual chassis members were flexing. The later models have a MUCH thicker and therefore stronger chassis.The additional chassis extensions (Autotrail) were as solid as a rock!!

Is the movement of yours actually AT the towball or at the outer extremity of the bar across the back??? If its at the tow hitch I would be a LOT more concerned than if its at the outer extremity.

As an indication of the forces involved Autotrail DOWN plate the Max Train weight of their conversions by AT LEAST 1000 Kg from the original Fiat base. I did have lengthy conversations about it and Autotrail advised me that it was solely due to the huge increase in leverage brought about by the length of overhang to the towball being much greater than on a standard van.

I suspect the problem you may well have is one of leverage. the towbar is mounted to the chassis a loooong way from the towball, therefore a minicsule amount of flex in the new metalwork or at the mounting point on the chassis (out of interest how far apart are the mounting bolts that hold your towbar to the chassis?? the further apart the better really) will be greatly exagerated by the distance between the towball and the original chassis.

By the sounds of it the company who fitted (did they also manufacture ??) the towbar are pretty responsible. Have they ever fiotted a towbar to a similar MH?? 

Have you checked with Carthago if they say a towbar can be fitted to "their" conversion??? I am aware that it is not always possible on certain vehicles. 

I would be inclined to load my car onto the trailer, attach it to the MH and then get someone to jump up and down on the rear of the trailer, to simulate what will happen on then road, while you watch the towbar. (It might be worthwhile to video it as well??) 

I would also be inclined to put my concerns, in writing (or email) to Watling Towbars (so, if necessary, in the future you can prove you raised your concerns as soon as possible with them)

I would also ask Watling to confirm that they are happy for you to use the vehicle and trailer on your holiday.

Do keep us posted


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## pneumatician (May 1, 2005)

Like Zebedee I had similar advice from Watling and fitted a towbar instead of a rack. 
Must confess I made the towbar myself and have covered approx 16k miles with it towing my motorbikes.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Well, Swanny is in France now.

Hope we find out the eventual outcome since he was unable to add anything to the story today.

Dave


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## HurricaneSmith (Jul 13, 2007)

That would be good Dave.......In an ideal world it could close the thread neatly.

Elsewhere, people still turn up on our forum, ask a question, receive sensible answers, and then tootle off without the courtesy of replying. :?


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## bigtwin (May 24, 2008)

HurricaneSmith said:


> Elsewhere, people still turn up on our forum ....... :?


Our forum????

Doesn't the OP belong to 'our' forum?


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## HurricaneSmith (Jul 13, 2007)

:roll: 

Yes, exactly. Don't be so touchy and read into something that isn't there.


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## Swanny (Nov 14, 2007)

Hi All, 

I've just felt my pulse and it turns out I survived the journey towing my car. It appears I find it harder to survive the Towing Ruminations beforehand. 

As a result of my concerns and fussing about with positioning the car on the trailer to get the hitch weight right (or somewhere near!) I set off too late and half way from Draycott to Harwich I realised I would miss the ferry. The traffic was backed up on the A14 so I turned around, re-booked for Thursday and set about ruminating once again. In fact, it was a great dry run which gave me the confidence to load up by myself and set off once again later in the week. 

I'd sent an email with a video to Watling and then spoke with them on the phone. They reassured me that they would expect some movement over such a distance and the circa 5mm (I thought 10mm??) movement they saw on the video was ok. They didn't remove the original chassis members which were only ever designed to provide some additional support for the floor of the garage and as such I was concern that this movement would disturb them (the towbar box sections did slap on the lower part of the original chassis members when I bounced on the ball) and tear away the fibreglass lining they are bonded too. Watling told me they thought the floor was much too strong for that. It is to be fair a heavily built van. 

I think I was right to cut of the top of the bolts protruding above the lateral part of the towbar frame though as they were almost touching the underneath of the garage and when I bounced on it, they did make contact. Hey Ho. 

To be fair, I am someone who hates anyone working on my van. It is rare to find an company who applies the same amount of care and attention to detail for the intended use and as such I tend to ask questions. This is often met with insulted faces and a recital of how long they've been doing such and such. I don't ever get arsey, I just ask them to talk me through what they will do. Is that wrong? Dunno. 

Watling didn't appear to appreciate me asking that really. I wasn't offended by them or felt like they wouldnt do a great job, but as it was a bespoke job I kinda wanted to know what their thoughts were. I haven't worked there for twenty years so I don't know. I had a look when I picked it up and it looked beefy enough though I didn't like that fact the towbar box sections were attached to the Hydraulic jacks mounting bracket. I suppose it's ok, they are very strong but it kinda invalidates any warranty on the rear jacks I would have thought. It would have been nice to have been asked. The spare wheel which had to be removed was now hanging down at an angle and I was told it was like that when I brought it in. It wasn't but I didnt argue. I took photos prior to delivery and it clearly was stowed correctly. And no, it didn't loosen itself on the journey down. It doesnt matter, it's a damn fiddly thing to put back but there is a way. 

I would recommend Watling of course. I went there because of the their online videos which seemed sincere and informative. Also, I chatted with the father who is retired now but was doing holiday cover when I called and he took a long time to consider what was possible from photo's before telling me they could help. I did try another place but really, they gave no thought at all and didn't even read my emails until I called them. 

Carthago recommend SMV in Germany who produce certified tow bars which they say would fit my van but I think not with the spare wheel in it's original place. And in any case, looking at it, I doubt very much it would be any stronger than mine as it doesn't run forward at all past the point where it's attached to the original chassis which suggests it may have a lot of lateral movement also. It probably wouldn't but it certainly looks that way. 

Anywaaaay, to get to the point. It all worked out so far. I drove to Denmark (ok, the ships did most of the driving) even getting on and off the ferry proved easy. (so much wasted ruminating) I could just do a full turn inside the ship to avoid three point turns which terrify me! As yet. I'm now in Schmallenburg, Germany and actually the towing bit was ok. Landing in Denmark and needing fuel was a chore as to fill up at the normal pumps meant no one could enter or leave the place while I was at the pumps so I drove on. The next was waaay too tight to manoeuvre around so I went to the truck pumps only to be told that I had no cards that would work and I had to use the normal pumps. On saying I couldn't he said "then you must go to the next station". So I did and there was more space. I've vowed now to always fill up with a quarter tank left! Not a bad practice really. German motorways proved no problem at the services. 

The biggest problem I've had is getting the tow hitch weight right. Watling suggested 50 to 80 kgs and I was struggling to get it below 130kgs!! without the car hanging too far back. It's a twin axle which I'm told can handle less than 10% of the total weight on the tow hitch. Could it really be that the weight should be 200kgs on the tow hitch? (2000kgs trailer with car). There is little info on this subject for the beginner to read. Perhaps I missed it but all the info I found, official and unofficial left me me with questions. (or is it just me?).

I did turn the car around and loaded it backwards but with the cars rear wheels on the front of the trailer I had 67 kgs which is ok, but I couldn't then use the wheel tie downs to tie the damn thing down with as there was only 'air' in front. In any case, it just didn't look right. 

I settled on putting some stuff in the boot of the car and got it to 85kgs and set orf. Probably not a good idea actually as I then discovered that the rear of the van was too high while driving and therefore the trailer sat more on the rear wheels than the front! I have full, Iveco air suspension at the rear which can be adjusted when stationary but once over 15mph it self adjusts. I don't think I can change this and in any case, travelling with softer springs may not be great either. The rear tyres of the trailer were hotter than the front but how hot is hot? I have no idea. I must have looked like a Tyre Fiddler as every time I stopped I felt all my tyres to compare them. I've never washed my hands so much on a journey. I met a German friend on the Autobahn and he told me they weren't that hot but certainly not what I wanted. 

I"m now looking to fit a drop plate to the tow bar to lower the hitch, level the trailer, cool the rear tyres and finally relax and enjoy the drive. Phew!!

Honestly though, the psychology of towing the car has proved to be much easier than I thought (isn't it always??). Arriving at my first work place (I'm not on holiday, I work in and around Germany every year for five months or so) unloading my car and zipping about in it was such a thrill. There is only so much shopping you can get in two panniers, a back pack and on the handlebars. I'm loving it. 

So there you go, feedback. It all worked out. Yes there is some flex but it appears to work and of course, I now feel Epic!!


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

> I now feel Epic!!


I hope he doesn't object too strongly!! 8O :lol: :lol:

Thanks for the feedback, and pleased it went OK, though I reckon you could worry for England! :wink:

Perfectly normal to be concerned at first, but when it doesn't fall off after a couple of trips you relax, and have to remind yourself the trailer is there.

Dave


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

Hi
I'm glad you got away ok.
I have had a lot of experience towing rally cars behind a motorhome and I would recommend getting the loading sorted and wheels level.
I always loaded with the trailer off the vehicle to make sure it was well balanced after a horrible experience which was similar to those videos of arctic lorries going sideways down the motorway.
The moment the trailer decided it was overtaking me sideways was the moment I decided to take no more risks.
The cause was just as you describe which overheated the rear tyres causing a blowout.
The nose weight has to be down to about 50kg and the hitch needs to be at the right height which could be a problem if your air suspension self adjusts?
The only way I could achieve this was to load backwards and my cars were always reasonably light, 2000kg is a heavy trailer to tow and will easily take control if things go wrong.
Keep on moving things around and I'm sure you will sort it out.
James


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## HurricaneSmith (Jul 13, 2007)

Nothing wrong with worrying............It's what my family tell me I do best. :lol: 

Thanks for such a comprehensive update. Getting your rig balanced is absolutely the right thing to do. It saved my bacon many years ago when towing a caravan. It still makes my palms sweat to think about it now.

Have a fantastic journey, and create many happy memories.


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## Gretchibald (Jul 22, 2011)

Yes, another thank you for an interesting and informative read. Also a Carthago is on my wish list so always read anything said about them.


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