# Banned from Winterton-on-Sea Beach car park



## Lys

Hi 

Today we decided to head to Winterton-On-Sea to end our bank holiday weekend on the beach. We were with some friends, also motorhome owners, so two vans in tow. I live in Norfolk and this is one of our favourite beaches, as well as it having a huge car park, so knew there would be space.

When we arrived about 10.30am, we were told we were not allowed to park - No Motorhomes, No caravans, No motorbikes - even though there was plenty of space. The woman on the gate told us to go and find a space in the village :? 

There were no signs anywhere on the way in. And since getting home, I can find nothing online in any of the tourist information about motorhomes not allowed. The car park has gates that are locked at 6pm and it's fully attended throughout the day. We were told that this rule is to avoid overnight parking and all night raves???

I feel so angry and completely discriminated against, and not exactly a great way to attract tourism - we spent £10 on parking, £48 in the beach cafe and £23 in the shop at a different location. I also often take the van out just for the day so not to be able to park it is gutting. We only wanted to park for a few hours.

I know Hunstanton and Cromer are a nightmare to park, so avoid them like the plague.

Before I pen my angry letter to various recipients, I wondered if anyone else has had similar experiences and what your thoughts are? Any tips for my letters?

I love Norfolk very much but sadly will be taking the van abroad again this year.

Lys


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## 747

Yes, 2 years ago we were told to clear off before our wheels stopped turning. Miserable sods. :evil: 

They may have done you a favour as the dunes are crawling with Adders. My curious dogs would probably have got into bother with one. 8O


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## barryd

Well lets face it. Motorhomers, Caravaners and bikers (who are now all over 60) are renowned for having all night raves!  

Was it council owned or private? Complain or demand a proper explanation. Being refused parking on the grounds that your type of vehicle is associated with what they deem trouble makers is down right discrimination. Sue them!!!


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## Lys

Thanks Barryd

I'm going to look into it. At least if they made it clear before you got there that would help. Whoever owns it, I'm sure the council and local residents won't be too impressed that we were told to go and find a space in the village.


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## GerryD

Before you take the council on I would suggest that you check the terms and conditions. They are likely to state the vehicles must park within marked spaces. If so you then need to prove that your vehicle can fit within one marked space without any overhang.
Possibly got you bang to rights.
A motorhome is not a car by any description and therefore not entitled to use a car park.
Gerry


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## Stanner

GerryD said:


> Before you take the council on I would suggest that you check the terms and conditions. They are likely to state the vehicles must park within marked spaces. If so you then need to prove that your vehicle can fit within one marked space without any overhang.
> Possibly got you bang to rights.
> A motorhome is not a car by any description and therefore not entitled to use a car park.
> Gerry


Sorry Gerry but this has been done to death many times a motorhome IS a "car"

It is for MOT purposes and it is for speed limit purposes. It is NOT a commercial vehicle and as it is a private vehicle (as opposed to a goods vehicle) it is a "Car".


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## listerdiesel

Contact details for Council Members here:

http://www.winterton-on-sea.net/parish_council.html

Peter


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## Stanner

You could also sign their "Guest Book" here.

http://www.winterton-on-sea.net/guest_book.html?p7422=2

Thank them for making you so welcome. :roll:

<Edit>
From http://www.winterton-on-sea.net/beach_cafe.html

The café and it's large car park (run by Ken and Pat Bowles) provide a "base camp" for a great day on our beach, on the dunes and, of course in Winterton-on-Sea.


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## 747

From memory, it is private land and the owner hates caravans and motorhomes with a vengeance. That is why the Staff vigorously enforce his hatred (on pain of death :lol: ).

We booked on to a CS not far away and it must have been the owner who told us.


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## vicdicdoc

-just another NAMBY mentality . . . No wonder we toddle off to France


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## Lys

GerryD said:


> Before you take the council on I would suggest that you check the terms and conditions. They are likely to state the vehicles must park within marked spaces. If so you then need to prove that your vehicle can fit within one marked space without any overhang.
> Possibly got you bang to rights.
> A motorhome is not a car by any description and therefore not entitled to use a car park.
> Gerry


Thanks Gerry. The 'car park' doesn't have bays. It's a huge piece of wasteland about the size of two football pitches behind the beach. 
I just wonder if there are conditions that come with being given the licence (if that is what you need) from the council to run a car park. I'm assuming keeping traffic out of the village would be one?


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## rayc

vicdicdoc said:


> -just another NAMBY mentality . . . No wonder we toddle off to France


I generally agree but the aire at Geradout was closed on the request of the adjacent campsite owner.


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## barryd

747 said:


> From memory, it is private land and the owner hates caravans and motorhomes with a vengeance. That is why the Staff vigorously enforce his hatred (on pain of death :lol: ).
> 
> We booked on to a CS not far away and it must have been the owner who told us.


Well they are stuffed then. If its private land then presumably they can admit who the like.

But then again! How flipping stupid can some business people be? Why not designate a few larger spaces for motorhomes and charge an overnight fee as well?

I give up! dont get me started!!! Ive just fallen down the stairs (no I am not pi$$ed) and Im angry. Provide me with the owners details and me and Gnomey will make sure that next time you park there you will have no problems!


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## sweetie

Lys said:


> Hi
> 
> Today we decided to head to Winterton-On-Sea to end our bank holiday weekend on the beach. We were with some friends, also motorhome owners, so two vans in tow. I live in Norfolk and this is one of our favourite beaches, as well as it having a huge car park, so knew there would be space.
> 
> When we arrived about 10.30am, we were told we were not allowed to park - No Motorhomes, No caravans, No motorbikes - even though there was plenty of space. The woman on the gate told us to go and find a space in the village :?
> 
> There were no signs anywhere on the way in. And since getting home, I can find nothing online in any of the tourist information about motorhomes not allowed. The car park has gates that are locked at 6pm and it's fully attended throughout the day. We were told that this rule is to avoid overnight parking and all night raves???
> 
> I feel so angry and completely discriminated against, and not exactly a great way to attract tourism - we spent £10 on parking, £48 in the beach cafe and £23 in the shop at a different location. I also often take the van out just for the day so not to be able to park it is gutting. We only wanted to park for a few hours.
> 
> I know Hunstanton and Cromer are a nightmare to park, so avoid them like the plague.
> 
> Before I pen my angry letter to various recipients, I wondered if anyone else has had similar experiences and what your thoughts are? Any tips for my letters?
> 
> I love Norfolk very much but sadly will be taking the van abroad again this year.
> 
> Lys


Not sure where you have been looking for parking in Cromer or Hunstanton.

Cromer has a carpark on the Runton Road on cliffs overlooking sea that would probably hold 200 motorhomes and cars plus, only about 3-400m from town centre.
And Hunstanton in the coach park there are about 20-30 pitches marked out for motorhomes only and we have used it for the last six years. So not sure where the parking nightmare comes in. :? :?


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## Lys

sweetie said:


> Lys said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Today we decided to head to Winterton-On-Sea to end our bank holiday weekend on the beach. We were with some friends, also motorhome owners, so two vans in tow. I live in Norfolk and this is one of our favourite beaches, as well as it having a huge car park, so knew there would be space.
> 
> When we arrived about 10.30am, we were told we were not allowed to park - No Motorhomes, No caravans, No motorbikes - even though there was plenty of space. The woman on the gate told us to go and find a space in the village :?
> 
> There were no signs anywhere on the way in. And since getting home, I can find nothing online in any of the tourist information about motorhomes not allowed. The car park has gates that are locked at 6pm and it's fully attended throughout the day. We were told that this rule is to avoid overnight parking and all night raves???
> 
> I feel so angry and completely discriminated against, and not exactly a great way to attract tourism - we spent £10 on parking, £48 in the beach cafe and £23 in the shop at a different location. I also often take the van out just for the day so not to be able to park it is gutting. We only wanted to park for a few hours.
> 
> I know Hunstanton and Cromer are a nightmare to park, so avoid them like the plague.
> 
> Before I pen my angry letter to various recipients, I wondered if anyone else has had similar experiences and what your thoughts are? Any tips for my letters?
> 
> I love Norfolk very much but sadly will be taking the van abroad again this year.
> 
> Lys
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure where you have been looking for parking in Cromer or Hunstanton.
> 
> Cromer has a carpark on the Runton Road on cliffs overlooking sea that would probably hold 200 motorhomes and cars plus, only about 3-400m from town centre.
> And Hunstanton in the coach park there are about 20-30 pitches marked out for motorhomes only and we have used it for the last six years. So not sure where the parking nightmare comes in. :? :?
Click to expand...

Last time I tried to park the van on the cliff car park in Cromer, there were height barriers up so I haven't been back. Have they been taken down? I guess we haven't found the coach park in Hunstanton, again, seemed everywhere had height barriers. Perhaps it's time to head back to Hunstanton too.


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## 4maddogs

You beat me to it , Sweetie! Cromer carpark is MH friendly as you describe. West Runton car park is also motorhome friendly and the beach cafe does a great cheese toastie and good local ice cream. You can walk to Sheringham along the cliffs or the beach depending on the tide.


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## 4maddogs

No height barriers at the Cromer ar park.....there were dozens of vans there yesterday.


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## sweetie

Lys said:


> sweetie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lys said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Today we decided to head to Winterton-On-Sea to end our bank holiday weekend on the beach. We were with some friends, also motorhome owners, so two vans in tow. I live in Norfolk and this is one of our favourite beaches, as well as it having a huge car park, so knew there would be space.
> 
> When we arrived about 10.30am, we were told we were not allowed to park - No Motorhomes, No caravans, No motorbikes - even though there was plenty of space. The woman on the gate told us to go and find a space in the village :?
> 
> There were no signs anywhere on the way in. And since getting home, I can find nothing online in any of the tourist information about motorhomes not allowed. The car park has gates that are locked at 6pm and it's fully attended throughout the day. We were told that this rule is to avoid overnight parking and all night raves???
> 
> I feel so angry and completely discriminated against, and not exactly a great way to attract tourism - we spent £10 on parking, £48 in the beach cafe and £23 in the shop at a different location. I also often take the van out just for the day so not to be able to park it is gutting. We only wanted to park for a few hours.
> 
> I know Hunstanton and Cromer are a nightmare to park, so avoid them like the plague.
> 
> Before I pen my angry letter to various recipients, I wondered if anyone else has had similar experiences and what your thoughts are? Any tips for my letters?
> 
> I love Norfolk very much but sadly will be taking the van abroad again this year.
> 
> Lys
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure where you have been looking for parking in Cromer or Hunstanton.
> 
> Cromer has a carpark on the Runton Road on cliffs overlooking sea that would probably hold 200 motorhomes and cars plus, only about 3-400m from town centre.
> And Hunstanton in the coach park there are about 20-30 pitches marked out for motorhomes only and we have used it for the last six years. So not sure where the parking nightmare comes in. :? :?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Last time I tried to park the van on the cliff car park in Cromer, there were height barriers up so I haven't been back. Have they been taken down? I guess we haven't found the coach park in Hunstanton, again, seemed everywhere had height barriers. Perhaps it's time to head back to Hunstanton too.
Click to expand...

It is about 3 years or more when height barriers came down at Cromer. As at the time my next door neighbour was car parks manager for north Norfolk and I kept pestering him to try to get them removed.
The coach park in Hunstanton.
If you come into hunstanton fron Kings lynn side drop down into town go past Tesco and coach park is on left hand side.

Steve


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## bazzeruk

Stanner said:


> GerryD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Before you take the council on I would suggest that you check the terms and conditions. They are likely to state the vehicles must park within marked spaces. If so you then need to prove that your vehicle can fit within one marked space without any overhang.
> Possibly got you bang to rights.
> A motorhome is not a car by any description and therefore not entitled to use a car park.
> Gerry
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Gerry but this has been done to death many times a motorhome IS a "car"
> 
> It is for MOT purposes and it is for speed limit purposes. It is NOT a commercial vehicle and as it is a private vehicle (as opposed to a goods vehicle) it is a "Car".
Click to expand...

That's interesting - My tax disc says private HGV?


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## Stanner

bazzeruk said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GerryD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Before you take the council on I would suggest that you check the terms and conditions. They are likely to state the vehicles must park within marked spaces. If so you then need to prove that your vehicle can fit within one marked space without any overhang.
> Possibly got you bang to rights.
> A motorhome is not a car by any description and therefore not entitled to use a car park.
> Gerry
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Gerry but this has been done to death many times a motorhome IS a "car"
> 
> It is for MOT purposes and it is for speed limit purposes. It is NOT a commercial vehicle and as it is a private vehicle (as opposed to a goods vehicle) it is a "Car".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's interesting - My tax disc says private HGV?
Click to expand...

The operative word is "private"

I guess HGV means it must be over 3.5t?

What does your V5 say?

Mine says "Motor Caravan" Not Van, Commercial or Goods.

<Edit> I think the Private/HGV only determines how much you pay in VED.


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## HarleyDave

vicdicdoc said:


> -just another NAMBY mentality . . . No wonder we toddle off to France


 I have obviously missed this in my worldly education - what's a NAMBY??

I know NIMBY means "Not In My Back Yard

NAMBY?? - Never heard of that...

Cheers

Dave


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## colpot

Stanner said:


> bazzeruk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GerryD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Before you take the council on I would suggest that you check the terms and conditions. They are likely to state the vehicles must park within marked spaces. If so you then need to prove that your vehicle can fit within one marked space without any overhang.
> Possibly got you bang to rights.
> A motorhome is not a car by any description and therefore not entitled to use a car park.
> Gerry
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Gerry but this has been done to death many times a motorhome IS a "car"
> 
> It is for MOT purposes and it is for speed limit purposes. It is NOT a commercial vehicle and as it is a private vehicle (as opposed to a goods vehicle) it is a "Car".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's interesting - My tax disc says private HGV?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The operative word is "private"
> 
> I guess HGV means it must be over 3.5t?
> 
> What does your V5 say?
> 
> Mine says "Motor Caravan" Not Van, Commercial or Goods.
> 
> <Edit> I think the Private/HGV only determines how much you pay in VED.
Click to expand...

PHGV applies to parking in some car parks eg Canterbury where they stipulate PLG only,


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## GROUNDHOG

Wonder what would happen if we started a whole new section for councils discriminating against motorhomes, report it with an e mail address and suddenly say 10% of members complained..... 7500 e mails might sway their thoughts and make them realise we are not to be trifled with!


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## Lys

GROUNDHOG said:


> Wonder what would happen if we started a whole new section for councils discriminating against motorhomes, report it with an e mail address and suddenly say 10% of members complained..... 7500 e mails might sway their thoughts and make them realise we are not to be trifled with!


A couple of questions?

What would happen if all council and privately owned car parks banned motorhomes from parking or restricted due to height barriers?

Should car parks and beach locations that do not allow motorhomes be made to put up clear signs, before you drive all the way down the single lane, as well as state online and in tourist info centres? (we got a telling off yesterday for causing a queue!)

What is the motorhome industry in the UK doing to encourage more motorhome friendly parking here?

Does anyone have any ideas along the lines of Groundhog above?


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## Stanner

colpot said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bazzeruk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GerryD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Before you take the council on I would suggest that you check the terms and conditions. They are likely to state the vehicles must park within marked spaces. If so you then need to prove that your vehicle can fit within one marked space without any overhang.
> Possibly got you bang to rights.
> A motorhome is not a car by any description and therefore not entitled to use a car park.
> Gerry
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Gerry but this has been done to death many times a motorhome IS a "car"
> 
> It is for MOT purposes and it is for speed limit purposes. It is NOT a commercial vehicle and as it is a private vehicle (as opposed to a goods vehicle) it is a "Car".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's interesting - My tax disc says private HGV?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The operative word is "private"
> 
> I guess HGV means it must be over 3.5t?
> 
> What does your V5 say?
> 
> Mine says "Motor Caravan" Not Van, Commercial or Goods.
> 
> <Edit> I think the Private/HGV only determines how much you pay in VED.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> PHGV applies to parking in some car parks eg Canterbury where they stipulate PLG only,
Click to expand...

Isn't that because the car park has a 3.5tonne limit? 
Which is quite a common restriction.


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## H1-GBV

I remember the "outrage" when Aldeburgh prevented MHs from parking on the lovely spot overlooking the sea. Suggestions included mass rallies, disrupting the shops, etc. What happened?  

For those who don't remember, the result can be found between these two "x"s: ----------> x x

Another disappointed "norfolker" - Gordon


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## nicholsong

colpot said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bazzeruk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GerryD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Before you take the council on I would suggest that you check the terms and conditions. They are likely to state the vehicles must park within marked spaces. If so you then need to prove that your vehicle can fit within one marked space without any overhang.
> Possibly got you bang to rights.
> A motorhome is not a car by any description and therefore not entitled to use a car park.
> Gerry
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Gerry but this has been done to death many times a motorhome IS a "car"
> 
> It is for MOT purposes and it is for speed limit purposes. It is NOT a commercial vehicle and as it is a private vehicle (as opposed to a goods vehicle) it is a "Car".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's interesting - My tax disc says private HGV?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The operative word is "private"
> 
> I guess HGV means it must be over 3.5t?
> 
> What does your V5 say?
> 
> Mine says "Motor Caravan" Not Van, Commercial or Goods.
> 
> <Edit> I think the Private/HGV only determines how much you pay in VED.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> PHGV applies to parking in some car parks eg Canterbury where they stipulate PLG only,
Click to expand...

Canterbury's New Dover Road P+R has a special area for MHs with water and waste dump. I do not know what the notices say but lots of us park there regularly.

Geoff


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## rayc

Lys said:


> What is the motorhome industry in the UK doing to encourage more motorhome friendly parking here?


The UK MH industry is dominated by the NCC. They have the C&CC and CC among their members and although it is only my opinion, I believe they have no interest in MH parking on other than their club and associated sites.


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## ttcharlie

Just tell that you are Gay, and that you are being discriminated against....

:lol: :lol:


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## Jean-Luc

We may not agree with the way the French do things at times but they certainly seem to understand how to ensure miscreant motorhome users should be dealt with while not acting against the vehicles themselves.
The Google translate leaves a bit to be desired but the gist of the matter is clear.

_*Article L 131.2 of the Code of Commons largely defines the purpose, mayors are probably entitled to prohibit and punish all activities or situations causing disruption to good order, 
to public health, etc ... throughout the town, on the public highway or elsewhere. 
They thus have important legal means to fight against the night sounds, the flow of sewage, the waste dumps, spreading objects that may result in misuse of the motorhome parked as type of accommodation. But it is so user behavior rather than motorhomes motorhomes themselves should be put into question. *_

Taken from HERE


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## Geriatricbackpacker

Plenty of MH's parked at Hunstanton yesterday along Cliff Parade (B1161). The road is directly next to a large grassed area and there were plenty of awnings out as the owner soaked up the sun. You are about a mile out of the town center proper and there is no overnight parking. As mentioned earlier there is a designated MH parking area in the town...in fact that was about the only place you could park as all the car parks were heaving and full for those of us in cars!


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## dovtrams

I refer to the OPs spend on the day. Do these people not realize what people with MHs spend when visiting different places. We often stop in Eyemouth when travelling up and down the A1; where we are made very welcome. In an afternoon, I can easily spend £40-£50. I do not think they know what they are missing.

Dave


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## Lys

Thought I'd share my email to Winterton Parish Council and others...

Dear Sir

On Monday 6 May we attempted to visit Winterton-on-Sea with another family who were staying with us in Norfolk, and park for the afternoon in the beach car park. Both of us were in motorhomes, mine being a small 4 birth, less than 5 meters in length and classed in every other situation as a car - for toll roads, ferries and vehicle road tax. The car park had plenty of space available and no height or weight restrictions. As I'm sure you will be already aware, we were refused entry at the gate.

There was not one sign anywhere leading up to or at the car park advising us of the situation and I have since looked at various tourist sites online and your local website. Again, I have found no information stating the restrictions on parking. Had we been aware, of course we would not have made the journey in the first place!

To say that we were hugely disappointed and felt completely discriminated against, due to perceived fear rather than fact, is an understatement. I'm sure anyone planning to stay overnight in the car park and have an all night rave would be more likely to be arriving in a pimped up Ford Escort. Surely, the fact that the car park is attended and the gates are locked daily at 6pm restricts this kind of behaviour anyway?

However, on top of not being permitted to park, what shocked us even more, was being told by the attendant on the gate to go and find a space in the village, presumably outside someone's holiday cottage and half blocking the already narrow and congested lanes. How do local residents feel about this situation?

As it happens, we drove to a different location, where we were more than happy to spend a total of £91 between us (£10 on parking, £48 in the beach café and £23 in the shop). I wonder how much revenue your local businesses are losing in Winterton-on-Sea due to your parking policy? How many motorhomes and motorbikes do you turn away every year? I work in the tourism industry here in Norfolk and feel frustrated that this kind of attitude is not encouraging people to visit our beautiful county. In the current economic climate, should we not be doing everything we can to encourage sustainable tourism? The family I was with won't be coming back in a hurry and pointed out that this is the reason they will be spending their summer holiday in France again this year.

Not every location is lucky enough to have the space and facilities available to cater for different types of vehicles but Winterton-on-Sea does. Therefore, could you please explain the reasoning for your parking policy to me? Could you also advise me of the best place to park the next time I am visiting Winterton-on-Sea in my motorhome?

Kind regards


Replies to follow shortly! (hopefully)


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## JanBowles

As owner of Winterton Beach Car Park, I am sorry to read of your experience on May bank holiday Monday. I assure you it is never our intention to inconvenience, or upset anybody.
I appreciate this opportunity to clarify the situation, and through publicity on your forum, hope this will go some way as to not inconvenience motor home owners in the future.
Unfortunately, it is a case that "The minority, have spoilt it for the majority". The car park is privately owned land, but due to it being designated SSSI (Site of special scientific interest) and an area of Outstanding Natural Beauty we have to abide by many constraints.
It contravenes our planning consent, granted by the Borough Council, to allow over night parking. We have owned the car park for seventeen years, and for many years did allow motor homes to park. Unfortunately, on too many occasions when we had to lock up in the evening, motor home drivers would not leave on time, or, to try to stay over night would have had alcohol, so couldn't drive. This was leaving my staff with an unpleasant and awkward situation, so after my staff being verbally abused one too many times I unfortunately had to take the decision to stop all motor homes from parking to avoid this situation.
The lady at the gate would have advised you of the few large spaces in front of the Village Hall, big enough to accommodate large motor homes. 
We have, as suggested put signs at the bottom of the lane, but these were defaced, and moved causing some confusion, but I will certainly try this again, to give warning before you drive up the lane, but we always make sure there is enough space left at the front of the car park for motor homes to come in and turn round, if the turning circle opposite is too small. 
I do not "Hate motor home, caravan or motorbike owners with a
vengeance", and as a small business would not take a decision that cuts revenue lightly. We do not allow motorbikes as there is no hard standing, and obviously cannot, and in fact would not use tarmac as explained due to SSSI conditions. Horse boxes are also not allowed at the request of Natural England and the Parish Council to protect our dunes from the damage that can be caused by horses illegally being ridden over them.
I hope you accept my apologies and reasons for not being able to accommodate motor homes or caravans at Winterton Beach Car park, and thank you for providing a forum to publicise the parking situation.
I assure you that I have no personal grudge against motor home or caravan owners, and wish you safe and enjoyable motoring.
Jan Bowles


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## pippin

A very fair reply.

How often have we heard:

_"The minority have spoilt it for the majority"._ ?

How do we stop it? Very difficult.


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## GEMMY

A £50 parking charge, £ 45 refunded if left before gate closed....SORTED. :wink: 

tony


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## vicdicdoc

OK, the owner of the car park was good enough to write & explain that this is a 'SSSI' area . . fantastic ! 
Quote;- 
"Not only are there rare amphibian breeds in shallow pools behind the main dune ridge, and the site is the only Norfolk locality for a rare butterfly, A notable assemblage of the bryophytes and lichens occur on these acidic dunes; Nightjar, Grasshopper Warbler, Corn Bunting and the locally scarce Stonechat with Raptors frequently hunting over the dunes in the winter months and Hen Harrier, Sparrowhawk, Barn Owl and Rough-legged Buzzard are all regularly recorded" 
End quote.

. . . I tell you what else they can monitor & record for future generations;
- its the demise of their local economy helped along by the short sightedness of not providing any overnighting facilities for the [no doubt] rare 'grey headed money in their pocket' visitors who sensing the demise of [another] non Motorhome friendly place take wing & hoof it over to more friendly climes.

Of course there is a possibility that the Stonechats & Raptors will 
thrive & save the community but my feeling is that these Stonechats, Raptors, Rough legged Buzzards will eventually pick over the bleached long dead bones of local shop keepers whilst local councillors hide away in conferences trying to think up ways of renewing the local economy.
[before anyone points out that "wing" & "hoof it" is an impossibility - I know, I was being creative] :wink:


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## bigtree

I would have thought if it was a SSSI it would not be allowed to be a car park.


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## bognormike

thanks for the reply. 

Is the actual car park a SSSI? as pointed out above, how can it be so? 

And why would motorhbikes be excluded because there is no hardstanding? Most motorbikes I've seen can drive on any ground, and don't seem to have problems elsewhere. 

To exclude ALL motorhomes because a few have been determined to stay overnight seems a bit extreme - surely there are better (and more financially beneficial ) ways of penalising any such activity? And of course there's the French answer to "legalise" it and allow (controlled) overnight parking? Then you get revenue, the motorhomers get a nice overnight, and spend money locally - everybody wins. Pigs might fly I suppose.......


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## DJMotorhomer

Hi

I think we should all get together and present the problem to Brussels as it contravenes our human rights as MHers :evil: everybody else seems to go there and win !!!


DJM


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## barryd

Its good that the owner has come on here and explained their side of the story and we should thank them for that.

However I hope that they can see that 99% of us are decent folk who respect others property and land and (apart from me of course  ) would be unlikely to start a rave.

Surely you can see there is a demand here. I bet this car park is empty on an evening just like thousands like it across the UK. There could well be an opportunity here to make some extra income for yourself and the local businesses. If you can get around the legalities somehow and find a way to embrace the motorhoming fraternity then you have a ready made set of customers right here who would be delighted to turn up, pay you a fair rate for day and hopefully night time parking and will respect and take note of any rules and regs you make.

It just seems to me that when there is the odd complaint or a small minority of people abuse a facility in the UK the knee jerk reaction is to just put a blanket ban for everyone. There must be another way but sadly until private land owners and councils change their views towards us most of us will carry on spending our hard earned cash over the channel where we are welcomed with open arms.

I was there six months last year and spent £6000 in 6 different countries. The UK got nothing.


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## 747

Not the old 'SSSI' gag again.

IT IS ALL A BIG CON.

It is easy to use the SSSI rules instead of costly legislation, having to put any plans up for scrutiny to the public (who God forbid, might object to it).

This legislation has already denied or limited public access to great swathes of the UK, particularly coastal areas. At Huttoft, there were ponds put in at great expense and the area designated an SSSI. How can you manufacture a new habitat and then claim historic reasons to protect it?

I repeat. IT IS A BIG CON.


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## rogerblack

I would in fairness like to thank the owner of the car park for coming on and posting a detailed response. As has been seen on another recent thread here, there are two sides to every scenario and all is not what it may appear from one side of the argument.

It is a pity that the opportunity to increase the business potential by allowing responsible overnight motorhome stays can't be realised but I can sympathise with the owners, as I know only too well what it is like trying to appease all the conflicting needs of the various 'stakeholder' organisations that get involved, not to mention having to deal with abusive customers.

It's their own property, their business and up to them to decide whom they allow. It would be good if they had a change of heart but I couldn't blame them if not. As further demonstration of their reasonable attitude, they seem to be taking on board the signage issue. Slagging them off on here can serve no useful purpose.


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## tippo12

]Sorry Gerry but this has been done to death many times a motorhome IS a "car"

It is for MOT purposes and it is for speed limit purposes. It is NOT a commercial vehicle and as it is a private vehicle (as opposed to a goods vehicle) it is a "Car".[/quote]

Sorry but my motorhome is not a car, even though there is no legal definition of a car in the UK as legislation refers to mechanically propelled vehicles or motor vehicles. The term car is used only in Driver licence classification, where class B permits a "car" to be driven, but the weight of a car is limited to 3500kg "train weight"
see the govt website at hantsfire.gov.uk/so-7-23-3-9.doc

My Niesmann weighs 4.8 tonnes unloaded, is 9 metres long and is plated to 6.5 tonnes, is subject to VED as a private heavy goods vehicle, and is legally classified on the V5 as a motor caravan, NOT a car. 
Because VOSA and DVLA agree to annually test it as a Private HGV and set the bar at a lower level than for a commercial vehicle is acceptance by authorities that it is unlikely to need testing to the level of a 40 tonner clocking 400K annually, it does not make it a car.
I cannot imagine any forum where the term car would be an acceptable classification, so don't I expect to get it into car parks often. The continentals recognise this and that's why they have thousands of aires, for motor caravans, not cars.


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## johnthompson

tippo12 said:


> ]Sorry Gerry but this has been done to death many times a motorhome IS a "car"
> 
> It is for MOT purposes and it is for speed limit purposes. It is NOT a commercial vehicle and as it is a private vehicle (as opposed to a goods vehicle) it is a "Car".


Sorry but my motorhome is not a car, even though there is no legal definition of a car in the UK as legislation refers to mechanically propelled vehicles or motor vehicles. The term car is used only in Driver licence classification, where class B permits a "car" to be driven, but the weight of a car is limited to 3500kg "train weight"
see the govt website at hantsfire.gov.uk/so-7-23-3-9.doc

My Niesmann weighs 4.8 tonnes unloaded, is 9 metres long and is plated to 6.5 tonnes, is subject to VED as a private heavy goods vehicle, and is legally classified on the V5 as a motor caravan, NOT a car. 
Because VOSA and DVLA agree to annually test it as a Private HGV and set the bar at a lower level than for a commercial vehicle is acceptance by authorities that it is unlikely to need testing to the level of a 40 tonner clocking 400K annually, it does not make it a car.
I cannot imagine any forum where the term car would be an acceptable classification, so don't I expect to get it into car parks often. The continentals recognise this and that's why they have thousands of aires, for motor caravans, not cars.[/quote]

The UK has adopted the EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA)
definitions of vehicle types.

M1: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers and comprising no more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, up to 3500kg. Driving licence B. Vehicle excise duty. PLG Class III MOT

M2: Vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg with no more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat. Driving Licence C1 Vehicle excise duty PHGV Class IV MOT

Historically, some European Member States may have operated their own set of national requirements for Motor Caravans. However, Directive 2007/46/EC, as amended, introduced a European wide certification scheme for this kind of vehicle. Existing national arrangements will apply until the application dates outlined below. The key application dates are:

EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) application dates for Motor Caravans

Category M1 Special Purpose

New Type Optional 29th April 2009

New Type Mandatory 29th April 2011

Existing Type Mandatory 29th April 2012

Motor Caravans are a special group in the M1 & M2 class and should be PLG or PHGV and not the 6 new categories introduced with the CO2 limits.

New Motor Caravans with garages could require a class VII MOT test annually from new as Dual Purpose Vehicles (Living Van). DVLA are pointing this out on tax renewals now.

John


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## rayc

tippo12 said:


> Sorry Gerry but this has been done to death many times a motorhome IS a "car"
> 
> It is for MOT purposes and it is for speed limit purposes.


A motor caravan is not a car as far as speed limits are concerned if its unladen weight is in excess of 3.05t.


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## nicholsong

John wrote

"New Motor Caravans with garages could require a class VII MOT test annually from new as Dual Purpose Vehicles (Living Van). DVLA are pointing this out on tax renewals now."

Not the bl**dy 'living van' thing again. 

John, not blaming you for raising this as it is DVLA, according to your report.

But why are DVLA getting involved since the MOT is under the jurisdiction of VOSA?

Since the 'living van' definition is based on the carriage of 'goods' i.e. for commercial purposes it seems to me that it is irrelevant in what type of compartment the goods are carried, whether called a 'garage' or anything else. 

Why are they suggesting it should only apply to new vehicles - the MOT applies to all vehicles and these rules about 'living vans' exist now.

I sometimes think the Parliament, as primary legislators, devolve too much power to allow secondary legislation, with almost no scrutiny, and the secondary legislators, e.g. Dft in turn authorise statutory bodies and agencies to make up their own rules.

In this case the original reason for the MOT was to ensure the safety of all vehicles on the road. I cannot see the relevance of what is carried in the vehicle impacts on that, except that it could be argued that for a 'living van' e.g a motorsport support vehicle could be clocking up considerable mileage from new it it could be appropriate to subject it to Clsss V!! so that it is MOTed from year 1.
This regime is hardly appropriate for MHs.

Is anyone (MOT stations, VOSA, the Police, currently 'policing' the MOTs issued to MHs to find out if they should have been Class VII?
Has anyone, owners/operators, MOT stations, been prosecuted?

This is the sort of unnecessary rule-making that has turned me into a 'bureaucratic anarchist'

John, do you have a copy of the DVLA advice being given to new owners?

Geoff


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## Jean-Luc

johnthompson said:


> tippo12 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ]Sorry Gerry but this has been done to death many times a motorhome IS a "car"
> 
> It is for MOT purposes and it is for speed limit purposes. It is NOT a commercial vehicle and as it is a private vehicle (as opposed to a goods vehicle) it is a "Car".
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but my motorhome is not a car, even though there is no legal definition of a car in the UK as legislation refers to mechanically propelled vehicles or motor vehicles. The term car is used only in Driver licence classification, where class B permits a "car" to be driven, but the weight of a car is limited to 3500kg "train weight"
> see the govt website at hantsfire.gov.uk/so-7-23-3-9.doc
> 
> My Niesmann weighs 4.8 tonnes unloaded, is 9 metres long and is plated to 6.5 tonnes, is subject to VED as a private heavy goods vehicle, and is legally classified on the V5 as a motor caravan, NOT a car.
> Because VOSA and DVLA agree to annually test it as a Private HGV and set the bar at a lower level than for a commercial vehicle is acceptance by authorities that it is unlikely to need testing to the level of a 40 tonner clocking 400K annually, it does not make it a car.
> I cannot imagine any forum where the term car would be an acceptable classification, so don't I expect to get it into car parks often. The continentals recognise this and that's why they have thousands of aires, for motor caravans, not cars.
Click to expand...

The UK has adopted the EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA)
definitions of vehicle types.

M1: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers and comprising no more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, up to 3500kg. Driving licence B. Vehicle excise duty. PLG Class III MOT

M2: Vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg with no more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat. Driving Licence C1 Vehicle excise duty PHGV Class IV MOT

Historically, some European Member States may have operated their own set of national requirements for Motor Caravans. However, Directive 2007/46/EC, as amended, introduced a European wide certification scheme for this kind of vehicle. Existing national arrangements will apply until the application dates outlined below. The key application dates are:

EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) application dates for Motor Caravans

Category M1 Special Purpose

New Type Optional 29th April 2009

New Type Mandatory 29th April 2011

Existing Type Mandatory 29th April 2012

Motor Caravans are a special group in the M1 & M2 class and should be PLG or PHGV and not the 6 new categories introduced with the CO2 limits.

New Motor Caravans with garages could require a class VII MOT test annually from new as Dual Purpose Vehicles (Living Van). DVLA are pointing this out on tax renewals now.

John[/quote]

"M2: Vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg with no more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat. Driving Licence C1 Vehicle excise duty PHGV Class IV MOT"

Not correct.
Category M2 are Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers, comprising *more than* eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and having a maximum mass not exceeding 5 tonnes. Mini-bus's in layman's language.

Motor-caravans are in fact not listed as a category M1 but are a 'Special Purpose' Category M, which means they are _*Motor vehicles with at least four wheels designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers*_ without reference to weight or a number of passengers.

With reference to Category M1, again there are no weight perimeters associated with this category, only a maximum number (eight) in relation to its passenger seats.

Therefore, whether a motor caravan is referred to as Special Purpose Category M or as M1, its GVW is of no effect and in reality show me a motorhome with more than eight certified passenger seats.

Full details can be found in ANNEX II of THIS DOCUMENT

Weight and number of passengers are of relevance *only* in connection with Driving Licence categorisation.

Reference to PLGV or PHGV is but a 'local' administrative mechanism in the UK for the collection of Road Tax. Notwithstanding the use of the Goods Vehicle Road Tax process to collect the tax due on motor-caravans they still remain 'passenger vehicles' in law and legal definition.


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## barryd

I would have thought the owner by by now would have responded again, but no. She has a captive market thanks to this thread that she could exploit upon and offer overnight parking for say 40 vans or whatever at say a fiver a night. 

Bonkers! Don't these people want to make money or are they just completely stupid?


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## nicholsong

So can anybody tell me what is on their V5C for a new vehicle in Para.'J Vehicle Category' - for both over and under 3500kg?

Mine has been blank since 2003.

Geoff


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## sweetie

barryd said:


> I would have thought the owner by by now would have responded again, but no. She has a captive market thanks to this thread that she could exploit upon and offer overnight parking for say 40 vans or whatever at say a fiver a night.
> 
> Bonkers! Don't these people want to make money or are they just completely stupid?


No not stupid! but when they see some of the comments telling them what they should be doing with there own property who would want motorhomes.
There are plenty of campsites in Norfolk why not use them.

Steve


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## Stanner

sweetie said:


> barryd said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would have thought the owner by by now would have responded again, but no. She has a captive market thanks to this thread that she could exploit upon and offer overnight parking for say 40 vans or whatever at say a fiver a night.
> 
> Bonkers! Don't these people want to make money or are they just completely stupid?
> 
> 
> 
> No not stupid! but when they see some of the comments telling them what they should be doing with there own property who would want motorhomes.
> There are plenty of campsites in Norfolk why not use them.
> 
> Steve
Click to expand...

Exactly, she stated quite clearly.......



> It contravenes our planning consent, granted by the Borough Council, to allow over night parking.


....... what is so hard to understand about that?


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## barryd

sweetie said:


> barryd said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would have thought the owner by by now would have responded again, but no. She has a captive market thanks to this thread that she could exploit upon and offer overnight parking for say 40 vans or whatever at say a fiver a night.
> 
> Bonkers! Don't these people want to make money or are they just completely stupid?
> 
> 
> 
> No not stupid! but when they see some of the comments telling them what they should be doing with there own property who would want motorhomes.
> There are plenty of campsites in Norfolk why not use them.
> 
> Steve
Click to expand...

If I was the land owner and I read these comments I would wake up and do something about it. I would be in a good position as the land owner to lobby the council and put a case forward for overnight parking.

Sorry but we seem to be a nation of whimps and NIMBYS.


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## bognormike

sweetie said:


> There are plenty of campsites in Norfolk why not use them.
> 
> Steve


I think the main thrust of the OP was that they could not get in during the DAY; many of us want to TOUR and visit places as well as going to sites. It's the same down here in Arun district, height barriers everywhere, and places where cars go to park up for the day are not open to motorhomes.


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## sweetie

bognormike said:


> sweetie said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are plenty of campsites in Norfolk why not use them.
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> I think the main thrust of the OP was that they could not get in during the DAY; many of us want to TOUR and visit places as well as going to sites. It's the same down here in Arun district, height barriers everywhere, and places where cars go to park up for the day are not open to motorhomes.
Click to expand...

But the owner explained on here that they had problems getting some motorhomes to leave when they wanted to close the car park :!: 
It only takes a few to spoil it for every one.
And as said, to stay over night would contravene there planning consent.

Then you get barry coming along and telling them.
Bonkers Don't these people want to make money or are they just completely stupid.

Can you understand now why they do not want motorhomes in THEIR car park :!: Because I do.

Steve


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## camper69

I am sure that if they could make some sensible money from motorhomes tney would, as long as it is outweighed by any hassle they got from motorhome owners.

Trying to get planning conset changed will take time and money, something they could probabily use else where.

Derek


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