# Chemical toilets



## HeatherChloe (Oct 18, 2009)

Hi there

I have two questions:

1. Are there rules about where you can empty the chemical toilet? Can you empty it in your toilet at home? If you are not staying on campsites, or leave forgetting to empty it, what do you do? 

2. Does your toilet smell? The toilet was used last weekend and not emptied, and today I went for a drive and there was a smell like a toilet smell. I aired the vehicle thoroughly by opening all the windows till the smell went, but when travelling again, the smell came back. It didn't seem to be particularly in the toilet cubicle or in the cupboard from the outside where you access the cassette, but generally in the cab. Do you think it is the toilet? Does this mean that I should empty it even if not full before driving? 

Any ideas?

thanks


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

The smell is probably your waste water tank. The smell comes up the drains due to there being no U bends, try a little bleach and clean water in the tank after emptying or put all the plugs in. Your toilet cassette is unlikely to be allowing smells to escape.

There are many threads on here about toilet emptying, just search for them. Taking care where you dispose is important, Alan.


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## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

Yes you can quite safely empty it down a domestic toilet.

The cassette should in normal use be completely sealed. If it leaks at all it could go anywhere as I have found out recently when Lowdham gave me the wrong seal even though I told them it was for a pre 2000 C4. If you have any sign of leakage replace the lip seal.

If you leave a toilet too long it can get a bit smelly when you empty it but should otherwise be virtually undetectable.

JohnW


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## DiscoDave (Aug 25, 2008)

quick fix to the waste water smell is a bit of fresh water down the plug hole, there is no u bend but should be a small kink in the waste pipe that will do the same job, problem is when you move so does the water!


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Just to qualify the above reply. It is ok if you are on main sewers (though I don't think the water authority would like it). If, however you have a septic tank, or other non main sewer type system, then you should not put chemicals down them as it kills all the "friendly" bacteria that they rely on to work.

Have you heard of the Sog system. Does not use chemicals at all.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

patp said:


> Just to qualify the above reply. It is ok if you are on main sewers (though I don't think the water authority would like it).
> .


Why ? It goes into the main sewers at a campsite and they have tons of the stuff going in each week.

G


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Not necessarily Grizzly. The campsite may have to have it pumped out of a septic tank and disposed of seperately. The chemicals can upset small sewage works. Larger sewage works may be able to cope so it would be up to the local water authority to decide whether the campsite could discharge directly into the main sewer ( assuming ther is one) or not.

We should remember that many campsites are in rural areas and may not be connected to mains drainage.


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## Melly (Jul 5, 2007)

I have just spent 3 months in France and used nothing in the toilet except for Tesco bio washing liquid at 95p a bottle from a top tip on this site.
We spent 4 days at a time on Aires so it had a good test.
I was so impressed with it that we got some for our next trip away.
No problems with chemicals down your loo at home either.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

patp said:


> Not necessarily Grizzly. The campsite may have to have it pumped out of a septic tank and disposed of seperately. The chemicals can upset small sewage works. Larger sewage works may be able to cope so it would be up to the local water authority to decide whether the campsite could discharge directly into the main sewer ( assuming ther is one) or not.
> 
> We should remember that many campsites are in rural areas and may not be connected to mains drainage.


Yes but I was talking about the bulk of campsites ie those on mains darinage. Why are water authorities likely to complain if I tip it down my home toilet and into the mains sewer and yet not complain if a campsite ( on the mains sewerage system) tips dozens of them down each day ?

G


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Water Authorities will charge campsites extra rates to deal with chemicals coming through the system. The Environment Agency will fine the Water Authority if their "sample", that goes into our rivers, is contaminated with chemicals.

Surely the Sog system is the way to go?


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

patp said:


> Water Authorities will charge campsites extra rates to deal with chemicals coming through the system.


I bow to your superior knowledge. I am surprised though and cannot find a source for this.

Domestically we pay on a "water in,water out" basis ie we use x volume of water per period and are charged to remove x volume of sewage.

The chemicals used in "green" toilet fluids are no more than soap - as witness the increasing use of cheap laundry liquids in cassettes.

The older, more difficult to obtain now, formaldehyde based liquids worked by killing off any organisms in the sewage. There was a surfactant ( soap) in there too to break down the contents. These were not welcome in septic tanks and by campsites that relied on a small village sewage works. In a larger system they were so well diluted by the time they reached the sewage treatment works that they made no difference.

I can understand the water treatment authority charging a campsite because of the extra volume of water it uses and generates as waste but not because it has any noxious chemicals in it. After all there is soap waste from showers and washing up and laundry.



patp said:


> The Environment Agency will fine the Water Authority if their "sample", that goes into our rivers, is contaminated with chemicals.


And rightly so but, barring the slight difficulty of all waste going into a treatment works before the treated water is discharged into a river, how can they detect that said waste is from a specific campsite- especially when that waste only contained soap in the first place and that will have been broken down long before discharge ?

G


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## machilly (Feb 10, 2007)

patp said:


> Not necessarily Grizzly. The campsite may have to have it pumped out of a septic tank and disposed of seperately. The chemicals can upset small sewage works. Larger sewage works may be able to cope so it would be up to the local water authority to decide whether the campsite could discharge directly into the main sewer ( assuming ther is one) or not.
> 
> We should remember that many campsites are in rural areas and may not be connected to mains drainage.


The answer is to use a Biological Toilet Treatment fluid and not the formalehydrade type, I have benn using this www.oiltechnics.co.uk/Janitorial/Portable/bio_treat.html for the past three years since fulltiming, so I can empty my toilet virtually anywhere, I have also found it very efficient.

I buy 4 x 5 litres every six months and it usually works out at about £2 per litre

regards


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

machilly said:


> I buy 4 x 5 litres every six months and it usually works out at about £2 per litre


Tesco Value Biological Laundry liquid: 75 p per litre and it even washes clothes.....

G


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

I have *never* seen any notices on campsites;either 'private', 'club' or 'temporary' about not putting chemicals in the toilet dump.

Harvey


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

ingram said:


> I have *never* seen any notices on campsites;either 'private', 'club' or 'temporary' about not putting chemicals in the toilet dump.
> 
> Harvey


There are some we have seen that ask you not to do it and many continental - mainly German- expressly forbid it. It is becoming less common now as the trend is to formaldehyde-free toilet fluids.

The oddest we have seen was at Wharfedale CC site ( or C&CC- can't remember which it is) Three years ago it had a notice asking you use only formaldehyde -based liquids. We think it was a very old notice and intended to stop you using the phenol-based liquids eg Elsan that used to be all available. It's probably no longer there.

G


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## PeterandLinda (Feb 21, 2009)

Hi

We have stayed on German sites where you can freely empty SOG equipped cassettes but must pay extra to empty chemically treated effluent into a separate tank, presumably because the site owner has to pay (a lot) to dispose of that waste.

P&L


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

PeterandLinda said:


> Hi
> 
> We have stayed on German sites where you can freely empty Sog equipped cassettes but must pay extra to empty chemically treated effluent into a separate tank, presumably because the site owner has to pay (a lot) to dispose of that waste.
> 
> P&L


Have you asked why you are paying extra ? Which sites are these ? What chemicals are they objecting to ? Why does the site owner have to pay extra ?

I'd be most interested to know what the site owner is paying for and will write and ask if you give me the name of one of the sites. I'm intrigued !

G


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Sewerage can go into a septic tank or main sewer, so SOG is fine either way. Chemicals (including detergents) will prevent a septic working. A camp site on a septic tank would not want chemical going into it, regardless of any legal considerations. 

Germany has even more laws that we do, it is possible they do not allow chemicals into the mains, especially considering the quantity which may come from a site. A water authority would be able to trace chemicals back to source if they felt the need. My brother did just that for Severn Trent for many years, Alan.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

erneboy said:


> Germany has even more laws that we do, it is possible they do not allow chemicals into the mains, especially considering the quantity which may come from a site. A water authority would be able to trace chemicals back to source if they felt the need. My brother did just that for Severn Trent for many years, Alan.


Yes, but we're talking SOAP here. Every household in the country discharges soap - from washing, showering, laundry and so on.

Your brother would have been tracing substantial quantities of substances discharged accidentally or illegally into the drainage system not very small quantities of soap !

I can understand a German campsite asking you not to use formaldehyde- or, if you can still buy them, phenol-based- toilet liquids into the system but it seems unlikely that they are being fined or charged extra for discharging normal household effluent into the mains.

I can understand them having to pay extra because they put more effluent than an average household into the main drainage but your contribution to that should come out of your payment to use the site. If this is the case then SOG users should also pay.

I'm intrigued to know why some German campsites should charge to empty a cassette. We've never met one in almost 40 years of tent, caravan and MH camping but we do tend to use smaller sites rather than larger commercial ones.

G


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Grizzly, I said, " Chemicals (including detergents) will prevent a septic working. A camp site on a septic tank would not want chemical going into it, regardless of any legal considerations". 

I referred only to a problem discharging other than natural products into septic tanks. I think we are talking detergents which are much more than soap. Soap is OK in mains sewerage, and so I think are detergents, because the treatment plants and filters can deal with them. 

I have never been charged extra to empty a cassette, maybe it is just revenue gathering. The no formaldehyde request is understandable just on common sense grounds, it could be as simple as that. I don't know how treatment plants deal with formaldehyde but I can find out, Alan.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

erneboy said:


> Grizzly, I said, " Chemicals (including detergents) will prevent a septic working. A camp site on a septic tank would not want chemical going into it, regardless of any legal considerations".
> 
> .


Fair enough Alan but we weren't discussing septic tanks. It's perfectly reasonable that septic tank owners should impose conditions on users.

We were talking about mains drainage and German site owners who charge extra for discharging cassette toilets containing additives into the mains system.

I'm intrigued to know how they can justify that and how they can distinguish between those who use a SOG ( and don't pay extra ) and those who add loo fluid and so do pay extra. Does the site owner stand over the disposal point and test each cassette ?

Formaldehye decomposes quite quickly in the concentrations and dilutions we're talking about so no extra water treatment should be necessary. It is quite difficult to buy formaldehyde based loo fluids now and I think they are not available in UK.

G


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Grizzly, perhaps we should widen the discussion to include infrastructure. Many camp sites are quite rural and may not have mains sewerage. Others may choose not to use mains on grounds of cost, where they have the option. Long established camp sites will have historic arrangements and will be subject to having discharges checked, as long as they pass the tests there will not be a problem. They would be keen to keep passing because of the cost of making other arrangements and therefore would be careful about what was being dumped.

People don't think much about where it all goes but it is just not economical to connect many rural or even slightly isolated areas to mains. The cost of connecting a house or camp site even a few hundred yards outside a town may make it prohibitive, unless the site is up hill from the mains or on the route anyway. If the nearest mains connection is uphill pumping is required. It is all allowed to fall to the bottom of the hill in one pipe, collected and pumped back up again in another. It gets more complicated where the ground undulates, either you dig very deep or you pump down as well as up.

I don't know whether I can find statistics but I would bet that perhaps 95% of us are connected to mains and that is considered sufficient. That percentage is high because most people live in towns and cities. The remaining percentage, although small is significant and will include the easy ones mentioned above, the difficult ones will never be connected because modern alternatives are as good as if not better than mains. In fact, in time it may begin to go the other way where space permits.

We should remember the reason for mains sewerage, seepage of effluent into drinking water and consequent disease. This became important when towns began to grow during the Industrial Revolution. Discharge without polluting drinking water became difficult. In a rural area there is no problem where good methods are employed, Alan.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

Alan ...all the above I take as read and agree.

However,the original question was: Are there rules about where you can empty the chemical toilet ?

Patp made three separate points that I take issue with. They are- quoting from patp's posts:

1. It is ok if you are on main sewers _(though I don't think the water authority would like it)._

2. Water Authorities will charge campsites extra rates to deal with chemicals coming through the system.

3.We have stayed on German sites where you can freely empty Sog equipped cassettes but must pay extra to empty chemically treated effluent into a separate tank, presumably because the site owner has to pay (a lot) to dispose of that waste.

I would be interested in finding more about the tests that water treatment authorities do on campsites - your post. I do not believe that any cassette liquid sold today and used in a cassette toilet would be detectable in the effluent from a campsite. That being so, what are the WTA testing for ?

G


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Here is some info. on what is routinely tested for http://www.lifewater.ca/Section_16.htm

Importantly a lot of testing is in response to environmental indicators or public health problems, in these cases they conduct an ever widening range of tests in the hope of finding the cause and then, with luck, the source in order to prevent further contamination. All of this is a long way from toilet emptying which is basically harmless in almost all cases. We have produced effluent since time began and survived it. In recent times we have learned to understand the risks and minimise them.

I can't answers for patp's statements but this topic crops up regularly and it is clear that it is not well understood so thrashing it out does no harm, Alan.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Grizzly - the original poster asked what to do "if you are not staying on campsites" and "if you bring your waste home with you can you empty it down the toilet?"

So if they, or anyone else, lives in a house with a septic tank, and many of us do, then we *are *discussing septic tanks.

Also, as Erneboy has said, many campsites are rural or semi rural they will have septic tanks. These will have finger drains which, as the tank fills, allow some of the content out and into the surrounding land to "filter away" (if they are proberly installed). Pure sewage will eventually bio degrade away but chemicals do not. As all liquid eventually makes it way into the water course they will be fined if they contaminate the water course in their area. Everything that farmers spray on their fields ends up in the water course 8O

In order to answer the op properly we need to know the content of their toilet tank 8O and the domestic arrangements for sewage at home 8O

I would presume that "not staying on campsites" means wildcamping?


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## machilly (Feb 10, 2007)

Grizzly said:


> machilly said:
> 
> 
> > I buy 4 x 5 litres every six months and it usually works out at about £2 per litre
> ...


That's fine but if I want to dump my toilet down a drain, and I get challenged I have a full technical spec, which gives me piece of mind that the product I am using is proper for the job.

regards


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## HeatherChloe (Oct 18, 2009)

Hi there

Thanks for the information. 

I have the Thetford own green chemicals and I read the back of the bottle carefully, and there are no warnings on the bottle about what you can do with it.

I live in a flat in Central London, so I have now just poured the toilet into my home toilet system, and assume it will go off to be water treated with the rest of my home toilet waste. No septic tanks for me. 

I have opened the waste tank to the drain - it's only a bit of shower water, washing vegetables and a bit of washing up - nothing too drastic. 

I think I'll keep the waste tank open now (unless I am on a site for a while) so that it'll just drip as I go along, as it's not much water and it's quite clean - as I'm sure you were all right that this was causing the smell - who would have thought week-old shower water could start to smell so nastily? 

Hopefully that's all appropriately green and will sort out the smell.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Glad you're all sorted HeatherChloe. I am not sure you are supposed to "drip as you go along" though 8O 

I just give the waste tank a good slosh of bleach once in a while  The smell is much more likely to be from washing up and veggie washing.


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## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

HeatherChloe said:


> I have opened the waste tank to the drain - it's only a bit of shower water, washing vegetables and a bit of washing up - nothing too drastic.
> I think I'll keep the waste tank open now (unless I am on a site for a while) so that it'll just drip as I go along, as it's not much water and it's quite clean - as I'm sure you were all right that this was causing the smell - who would have thought week-old shower water could start to smell so nastily?


If you are not on a site then I always think it better to drain straight through the system into the ground. The reason your waste tank smells is that the bacteria has multiplied to an unacceptable level. Better to put fresh grey waste straight into the ground providing you are not too near any water course.

JohnW


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

patp said:


> Glad you're all sorted HeatherChloe. I am not sure you are supposed to "drip as you go along" though 8O


I'm quite sure you are not! 8O

Apart from being illegal, it's a bit antisocial to spray following cars with your washing up water. :roll:

Even if it was from the fresh water tank the following traffic would not know that, and no doubt some would inevitably assume the worst! 8O 8O

A couple of years ago I had a leak in my fresh water tank and needed it as empty as possible ready for the dealer to do the repair . . . so on the way there I left the drain cock open.

I was pulled up and challenged about the "_liquid which is spilling from your vehicle as you go round left hand corners - SIR!!_."

I explained and fortunately was believed, so I got away with a finger-wagging, but I was left in no doubt that it is illegal and subject to a hefty fine. 8O :roll:

Grizzly's advice about the Tesco Bio washing jollop works for us, and we always put a measure down the sink before setting off on a trip.

Every two or three trips I go a bit further and drain the grey waste when leaving to return home. I close the drain tap then put a measure of the washing liquid down the sink and follow it with a gallon of hot water.

This then sloshes around on the journey and cleans all the congealed fat and soap suds off the walls of the tank. It's no trouble then to bucket it down the drain at home, and in the year or so since we started this procedure (_Thanks Grizz_!  ) we have had no nasty niffs and the "tank full" indicator still works as well!! 

Hope this helps

Dave


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## midlifecrisismil (Sep 27, 2009)

ingram said:


> I have *never* seen any notices on campsites;either 'private', 'club' or 'temporary' about not putting chemicals in the toilet dump.
> 
> Harvey


We stayed at Seal Shore campsite on Arran recently and were asked if we used blue or green chemicals. When we said blue we were told that we had to dispose of toilet waste into a separate container on the site not the normal one.

I think the separate container was a type of cesspit.

Milly


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

midlifecrisismil said:


> When we said blue we were told that we had to dispose of toilet waste into a separate container on the site not the normal one.
> Milly


Clearly a campsite who have not caught up with the world !

Aquakem/ Thetford have not sold a camping toilet fluid containing formaldehyde since 2003 whether blue, green or sky blue pink. I don't think any firms now sell formaldehyde-containing ones for this market. This might be different in USA or for marine toilets - I've not looked at them.

The difference between the blue and green fluids is in the concentration. Blue fluids need more water added to them as they are more concentrated so more economical to carry around than green ones.

G


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## NeilandDebs (Aug 28, 2008)

*Waste disposal*

I have had a Sog fitted for over 2 years now. It has saved me a fortune in cost of chemicals. I try to wild camp as much as possible but on the rare occasions I go onto a site I see more and more notices saying 'no chemicals down the sewage disposal'

Get a Sog it is one of the few bits you will buy for your van that saves you money and does what it says it will do.
Neil


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I cant beleive Ive spent 20 minutes reading this Cr*p! :lol: 

Sorry couldnt resist.

So just so Im clear as we have ran out of Blue stuff. Any cheapo biological washing (clothes) liquid will do instead of the blue?

We dont have Tescos here but presume others like Sainsburys will have it.

I have to say when we have ran out of blue in the past I have often just used nothing and although its a bit harder to empty its no big deal. Am I the only one to do this and by admiting it am I now in Motorhome Facts discrace?

I reckon the Germans by the way have just gone flipping ECO friendly mental. We stayed on one site in the black forest where the young chap on reception said "I have to give you about 10 different rubbish bags for this that and the other, its like the Green Mafia around here". I think we are still using them for our rubbish a year later.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

barryd said:


> I
> We dont have Tescos here but presume others like Sainsburys will have it.


Yes, but don't spend much on it. The cheapest Value bottle will do the job as well as the most expensive branded stuff.



barryd said:


> I reckon the Germans by the way have just gone flipping ECO friendly mental.


I've a German friend who reckons her mother had sleepless nights wondering whether she'd dismantled her tea-bag and put all the bits in the right bags: metal staple, paper bag, compostable wet leaves, cardboard tag, paper wrapper.....

G


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