# Fiat Ducato 2.8TDI gearbox problem



## 126450

Have just lost 5th gear during trip to Europe after prolonged motorway running 8-10 hours fully laden, is this just a one off mechanical, as the vehicle has only 25,000 miles on it! or is this common on this transmission? and if so is there a modified part to prevent re occuance??? anybody any ideas or suggestions.


----------



## ianhc

Hi, it is a common problem. I lost 5th gear just the same on my 2000 2.8 scout a number of years ago, about the same mileage. It is widely accepted that the failure is due to a lack of lubrication as the 5th gear mounted on the outside of the box so relies on oil spray. In a normal van senario delivering parcels etc they are not subjected to hundreds of miles in 5th gear on motorways/peages etc so last longer.
Because the 5th gear is external the cost is reduced to replace BUT they will have to fully examine, remove debris etc and replace. Ready yourself for a bill £1200+ ( if it is the cheaper reapair ) from a fiat etc dealer. SORRY!!!


----------



## tramp

hi Konaman,
if you subcribe £10 then you can search the past topics covering this subject in detail and saving you about £500 , sounds a good investment to me :wink: :lol: .

the reason most of these failed was lack of oil in the gearbox as the 5th gear is high up and did not get the required oil lubricant. on rebuild check level and fit teflon gearbox oil its slippy stuff  

tramp


----------



## GGrigg

*its a 2 hour job external to the main box*

I have JUST done it. 
Only need to refill the box and I should be mobile again. 
I have posted pictures of the step by step process but not tided up yet. 
You need drive and driven cogs. matched pair but only the syncro teeth on the drive are goosed, and a syncro hub. 
Total price 400GBP and 2 hours. 
Good news is the gasket is a reusable rubber seal! 
Do from under the wheel arch. 
Email [email protected] and Ill give you my mobile number. 
Garry 
Manchester 
UK


----------



## GGrigg

*forgot to add --- sorry*

http://picasaweb.google.com/ggrigg/FiatGearbox#

Count the bits in the pan as you remove it (5 bolts and its off).
I had one wayward tooth and it was in the bottom. Its usually the syncro ones not the actual helical gear teeth. they are very small considering.

The magnetic dif/gearbox plug had lots on too.
I have affixed magnets to the pan so any wandering bits in the future stay in the bit that's readily accessible.

Oh... make sure you slide the selector fork on the right way round first time!

Mine had 26K on the clock but there is one that failed at 18K... 
"They do that sir!"

Garry


----------



## GGrigg

*i hope you got the last as .....*

I had to subscribe to send it ... now that's true motor home spirit!

Garry


----------



## spykal

*Re: i hope you got the last as .....*



GGrigg said:


> I had to subscribe to send it ... now that's true motor home spirit!
> 
> Garry


Welcome to MHF as a subscriber :wink:

and well done that man for posting about your "gearbox experience" ... great pictures too... how thoughtful of you to take them while you were doing the job.

Mike


----------



## Stanner

*Re: its a 2 hour job external to the main box*



GGrigg said:


> Only need to refill the box and I should be mobile again.


The advice of my local (non-franchise) Fiat Specialist is to slightly over fill with oil as this helps to ensure the upper gear gets adequate lubrication.

The other tip is to use 4th every so often, even when cruising to "stir the oil up a bit" and give 5th a rest.


----------



## strod

*Fiat 5th gear*

I was advised to travel the initial five miles with cold engine, in 4th gear, to allow oil to be "splashed onto" the fifth gear before it is engaged. Also had Tunit electronic device fitted, which is a big help in getting up the hills in fifth gear. Our m/hme is 04 vintage,34000 miles on clock,and never any bother so far. EssanJay, Poole do fifth gear replacements & are Fiat workshop. Best wishes to all our fellow motorhome travellers. EdLyn


----------



## arh

Man thanks are due to GGrigg for the excellent set of photos of the refit, now that should save quite a few people an awful lot of money, I only hope that he's bought a Mercedes before I need to do any work on mine.


----------



## raynipper

Now you have all got me really worried as my 2000. 2.8iJTD is at 28,000 miles.

Just looked to add/check some extra oil or additive and can see a hex plug on the top of the gearbox casing. But where/how would I check the correct level please?

Nothing in the owners handbook and the cheap e-bay CD is useless. 

Ray.


----------



## GGrigg

*More to come later ....*

I plan to tidy up the pictures properly ...this was a quick posting for the current "active" failure.

I have one with the magnets on and filling with a perostaltic pump through the reversing light switch.

Options were to fit a filler to the pan while off and a clear perspex window so the level could be easily monitored.

I have also go a copy of the exploded parts diagram with the numbers to avoid language problems while abroad, off the Fiat part chap ... good guy.

Ill do a proper "how to" with legal disclaimers ... but as a mentioned we have traveler in need ..... I should have qualified for a free subscription for this! hohoho

Ill be back ....now I have paid my 10 quid!


----------



## Stanner

*Re: Fiat 5th gear*



strod said:


> Also had Tunit electronic device fitted, which is a big help in getting up the hills in fifth gear.


But is this necessarily a good thing in the circumstances? 
If it is the extended use of 5th that causes the wear, surely the occasional drop down to 4th, such as on hills, gives 5th a breather.


----------



## raynipper

<<<< I should have qualified for a free subscription for this! hohoho >>>

Absolutely GGrigg.
At least a medal 'mutley'.

Ray.


----------



## ianhc

Hi, as previously submitted mine went on a 2000 2.8 dtdi engine which i believe ( somebody please confirm) is Iveco. Is the later 2.8JTD engine subject to the same gearbox failure or do they have a different gearbox and/or better oiling.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

We have 38k on ours, 2001 gearbox oil is getting checked asap.

Thanks for the pics GGrigg, I can't wait for the step by step instructions and the exploded parts with numbers, it seems that you'll be a valuable contruibutoer to the site, may I be one of the first to give you a big welcome, so sorry it had to be in such circumstances.

Kev.


----------



## TDG

*Re: Fiat 5th gear*



strod said:


> I was advised to travel the initial five miles with cold engine, in 4th gear, to allow oil to be "splashed onto" the fifth gear before it is engaged. Also had Tunit electronic device fitted, which is a big help in getting up the hills in fifth gear. EdLyn


Probably a bad idea! Getting up hill better means more torque is available which in turn means more load on the 5th gear cogs and the possibility of an even quicker failure 8O


----------



## rayrecrok

Hi.

My 5th gear went on my 2.5 fiat on my Autotrail Mohican. 
It had reached 26k miles. I took it into Sunwin main Fiat dealer in Halifax where they replaced the fith gear with a Fiat modification that was supposed to fix the problem.

Ok for another 10k or so when the whole gearbox collapsed, time for a reconditioned one, now I have about another 15k miles on this box so fingers crossed. :roll:


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

So Fiat reliability on the engine is fine,Its the rest of the bits that are cr4p

Does anyone know if 2005 models are suspect to failiure.

Thanks for the post and warning

Dave p


----------



## JockandRita

Hi all,

I asked our very reliable chappy who does our major stuff, about the 5th gear failure. He advised us that we have a Peugeot gearbox attached to our Fiat 2.8TDi, and that they tend not to suffer from the same problem.
Can anyone else advise that to be the case on some year models?

He drained our gearbox and refilled with fully synthetic gear oil, after I reported to him that the gear change felt very "notchy" after the engine change last year. It turns out that they refilled with the wrong oil, ie, wrong viscosity. It certainly appears to be much smoother since.

Jock.


----------



## cater_racer

I hate to say it, but I don't think there is any difference in the Peugeot and Fiat fundimentals. I thought the differences were purely cosmetic.

The new 3.0 Ltr 160ps is IVECO and probably much stronger, chain driven cam for a start!


----------



## safariboy

Does anyone know if the same problem applies to the 2007 and later 6 gear models?


----------



## Zebedee

cater_racer said:


> I hate to say it, but I don't think there is any difference in the Peugeot and Fiat fundimentals. I thought the differences were purely cosmetic.


So did I until I met a chap with a Fiat who was whining bitterly about his lousy fuel consumption.

We both have 2.2 litre engines (well, his is 2.3 I think) and as soon as we lifted our respective bonnets it was obvious the engines are entirely different. :?

I get around 34mpg overall. He said he can't get better than 25mpg even when wearing his glass slippers.  

Don't know about the other engines, but I believe with our size the Fiat is a Fiat, while the Peugeot is a Ford derivative.

I've never bothered to check for certain, so am willing to be corrected.  

Dave


----------



## Stanner

They are completely different engines the 2.0/2.2 is the Peugeot/Citroen Hdi (PSA EW/DW) engine even if it is in a Fiat and badged as a JTD. 
It is the same as fitted to Fiat Ullysee/Citroen C8/Peugeot 807 MPV and the respective Scudo/Dispatch/Expert vans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_EW/DW_engine

The 2.3/2.8 is a Fiat commercial engine (actually an Iveco unit).

This explains all
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JTD_engine#2.3
And explains that the 2.0/2.2 isn't a Fiat engine at all.


> while the Peugeot is a Ford derivative.


Other way round - the Ford is a Peugeot derivative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duratorq


----------



## GGrigg

*"How to swap the bits" text version ...*

I tried to post a first doc to google site so here goes:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYkfNGrIkfXxZGZiZ3RzcnhfMGM5YnRxOWRj&hl=en

Let me know if any probs.
Ill go and sort the picture album now.

Garry


----------



## GGrigg

*Pictures revised captions added.*

This album has been created SOLELY for my own use as an aid to reassembly.

It is not intended as a guide in any way.

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/ggrigg/FiatGearbox#

I think Ill renew my RAC membership anyway!

Enjoy....

Time for tea and kip.
Garry


----------



## rowley

When I had my 100mj serviced recently, the mechanic said that the engine was made by Ford. All I know is that the oil was very expensive.


----------



## raynipper

*Re: "How to swap the bits" text version ...*



GGrigg said:


> I tried to post a first doc to google site so here goes:
> 
> http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYkfNGrIkfXxZGZiZ3RzcnhfMGM5YnRxOWRj&hl=en Let me know if any probs.
> Ill go and sort the picture album now.Garry


Garry, your a star.
Now off to find an old speaker and bung in a pint just in case.

Thanks Ray.


----------



## trevorf

As far as I know the later models with the jtd engine have a different gearbox with 5th being inside the main casing and not an add on. There seems to be some dispute when this change was implemented. I have read various reports ranging from 2002 to 2004.
Bear in mind if you have a 2003 motorhome the base chassis could well have been made a year or so earlier.

I have looked at my 2005 model and it certainly looks different to the photo's taken.

The latest Ducato 2006 onwards have completely different engines and gearboxes but as we know they have other problems 8O 8O 

So maybe the best ones to buy are 2005 models. Mine has now done 22,000 miles with no problems at all.   

Trevor


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

Just been down yard and my 2005 model has a different shaped casing end to the gearbox tha shown in pics. hopefully ok

Dave p


----------



## raynipper

I'm still struggling to get the reversing light switch electrical plug undone. I have prised, twisted, wriggled, etc. But don't want to break it and have another problem.

Ray.

p.s. a 2000 2.8


----------



## Stanner

rowley said:


> When I had my 100mj serviced recently, the mechanic said that the engine was made by Ford. All I know is that the oil was very expensive.


It is far more likely to be made by PSA (Peugeot/Citroen Group) but looks like one made by Ford because some Ford made engines are a PSA design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duratorq


----------



## zoro

*High 5th gear*

I have a 2005 2.8 JTD in a Hymer. 
I intended to have the 5th gear changed to what I was led to believe is a higher ratio set while the van was serviced and new cam belt fitted next week. 
(The reason for this is that at a true speed of 55mph (GPS) I am pulling 2750 rpm which makes me believe that I have the low ratio 5th gear.)

The garage that was to carry out this work has told me that when they contacted Fiat for the relevant parts (two cogs I believe) they where told that no such parts exists.

So is there anyone out there who has had this work done, and if so, do they have the part numbers or can they put me in touch with a garage that has carried out this work.
Many thanks
Steve F


----------



## TDG

*Re: High 5th gear*



zoro said:


> I have a 2005 2.8 JTD in a Hymer.
> I intended to have the 5th gear changed to what I was led to believe is a higher ratio set while the van was serviced and new cam belt fitted next week.
> Steve F


Maybe a good job it is not doable; higher ratio = higher torque = increased loading on gears - gears which are known to liable to failure due to loading and lubrication probs.
Best regards,


----------



## GGrigg

*stick with std ratios vote number 2*

I was going to post a similar one to TDGs above, then realised its a much newer unit than mine.

If it aint bust dont fix it. 
Cogs about £400 say a 10% saving on disease-al thats £4000 until the parts only job becomes cost possitive. About 24K miles in my unit? If the parts are no better then they will be US by then.

As the power needed increases with the square of the (air) speed ...travel slower to save fuel at no cost. The down side is engine noise reduced and you can hear the navigator!

I would not increase the ratio for the above load reason. It being stresses more than the average Ducato and doing it for longer stints.

If you do swap keep the removed bits handy while you travel ...2 hour job when against the clock. Dont forget the big magnet on the outside to keep debris in the 5th pan and out of the main box. Unfortunatly your redundant parts probably wont fit mine!
Garry


----------



## zoro

Thanks for the replies guys.

I do understand your concerns but as I have already had to replace the air con compressor this year while in France as the bearings failed,I have this fear that running up to 3000 rpm is going to over rev other auxiliaries like alternator,water pump etc.

Does anybody know what is the safe maximum rpm you should run the engine at?

Steve F


----------



## Stanner

The governed maximum of the engine SFAIK.

Why would it be anything else?


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

Thicko here stanner me old luv
What does SFAIK mean


DAve p


----------



## trevorf

I think its a typing error

Should be AFAIK

As Far As I Know


----------



## karlb

SFAIK.........so far as i know.


----------



## Stanner

QED



karlb said:


> SFAIK.........so far as i know.


TTFN


----------



## GGrigg

*Aux revs*

Same parts will be used on a lot higher revving units. 
Air comp bearings tend to fail due to being run with low coolant levels. It bleeds out THROUGH the flexi pipes (very small molecules escaping!) and then no lubricant circulates either. 
Garry


----------



## davesport

Good afternoon Garry.

I hope you dont mind me picking your brains, but I'm looking for a bit of advice.

Reading your post on the 5th gear failure got me round to looking for ways of replacing the GB oil in my 2006 2.8JTD. 

The way the Hymer is built around & over the engine makes it virtually impossible to get at the reverse light switch. I would need to remove a lot of hoses & other bits to get at the reverse light switch. However I do have access to the speedo sensor at the rear of the GB. Do you know if it is possible to fill through the hole for the sensor once it's been removed ?

Thanks for posting such a comprehensive article.

Regards Dave.


----------



## lookback

A useful and very informative section.

To ask a dumb question, if my fifth gear packs up on me can I still drive my motorhome in the remaining gears without damaging the gearbox and for how long i.e. could I get back to UK from Spain.
Thanks Ian


----------



## bubble10

no you will not damage the box by driving in 4th gear home. It will just be noisier than 5th gear and possibly use more fuel.


----------



## TDG

bubble10 said:


> no you will not damage the box by driving in 4th gear home. It will just be noisier than 5th gear and possibly use more fuel.


Could be bits of metal from the damaged components finding themselves floating round the gearbox oil system and getting too intimate with the undamaged parts and then there are 3 gears.......... or less


----------



## bubble10

Apollogies TDG is right!!!


----------



## motaman

forgive my ignorance ,but is the engine oil seperate from the gearbox oil.a posting suggests over filling to ensure oil gets to 5th gear. i was of the opinion that with a transverse engine, engine and gearbox oil were the same. if so this slight overfilling would make sense. but then there are suggestions of checking gearbox oil as if it were seperate
regards


----------



## davesport

Yes, the GB oil is entirely separate & obviously of a different type.

The only car engine that springs to mind using a common lubricant between the engine & gearbox is the old Mini.

 D.


----------



## oilslick

*Sooo which boxes?*

I am amazed at the number of knowledgeable people on this site/thread and yet nobody seems to know specifically which boxes it does/doesnt affect.

I have a 2005 2.8 With "Ford" stamped on the oil filter body - but what gearbox I have I dont know, but I do know one thing... I have changed my driving style!

A point made by Ggrigg earlier "power is proportional to the square of the speed"... Sorry but it is the drag or force that is proportional to the square of the speed. Power is proportional to the cube of the speed! (If any body is interested)

So how can we find out specifically which gearboxes?? any body know anybody in the gearbox repair business?

Grant


----------



## Stanner

davesport said:


> Yes, the GB oil is entirely separate & obviously of a different type.
> 
> The only car engine that springs to mind using a common lubricant between the engine & gearbox is the old Mini.
> 
> D.


And some rare(r) Peugeots - just because it's a transverse engine doesn't mean the gearbox is in the sump (a la the Mini).

With most transverse engines all it means is that what was "in-line" with the vehicle is now across the vehicle and with a differential incorporated into the gearbox not the back axle.


----------



## trevorf

> So how can we find out specifically which gearboxes??


I think the best way is to look at the photo's at the begining of this post.

If yours looks different then you are OK

Trevor


----------



## davesport

Well, mine's identical virtually & I suspect prone to the same failure.

I'm seriously contemplating whipping the cover off the end of the gearbox & fitting a fill plug to enable bi-annual oil changes. I can't be bothered trying to dig down to the reverse light switch.

I fully suspect that most owners of this model of gearbox have no idea how much oil is in there, me included. I'll be interested to see how much comes out when I drain it down.

More later, D.


----------



## GGrigg

*Prediciting failure????*

I have now test driven the unit and whilst I didn't notice much movement in the leaver while on and off power in 5th before, it must have had some movement as it popped out altogether once the little spring loaded syncro balls couldn't hang on in their recesses any more.

Now it is rock steady when in 5th going on and off power. Could this be a way of monitoring wear?


----------



## GGrigg

*2p th*

I have just read back through the emails posted... 
I was keeping the formula/relationship of power/fuel saving simple.

So it can be used properly on all motors it is:

Air Resistance = cross sectional area x drag coefficient x speed squared. sorry cant see super script font option ha ha.

I simply substituted "power neeeded" for resistance. Sorry for ignoring gradients and road surfaces etc..

Regarding bits getting into the rest of the box if you continue driving only using the lower gears ... Yes, and you will be flushing lots of oil through the 5th gear chamber running this way too. The rubber seal on the pan itself offers a little weir and seemed to halt all of my bits. I counted one tooth off and one in the pan with a smaller secondary sliver. Some other small "flakes" too all in the pan. You saw the state of the magnetic plug? 
This all appeared relatively old. When cleaning the pan there was more debris in the second skin which required an action like panning for gold to rinse out. Every bit you get out is worth its weight in gold!

I am confident that the 40 mile run didn't get a significant quantity into the main box. I rinsed the main box with a wash bottle of solvent and didn't see anything come out of the drain hole at the time. I would also like to think that they would gravitate along the bottom. The diff. and several bearings are down there on the way to the drain plug though!

However .. please get out there now and fit a big magnet to the 5th pan even if its running OK.

You will then be sure any debris will stay in the accessible cheap area! 
Prevention will enable a confident easy fix. Its all about improving the odds in you favour.

Has anybody discovered if these parts were ever improved?

I was just glad to get them so quickly to dig as to if they exactly as manufactured in 1998. They look the same but I couldn't do a nondistructive hardness test before fitting and there is nothing left of the working surface of the one that came out to test anyway!

Next time I will just curse the same but worry less as I have been there done that now.

Oil filler on the pan a good idea. I plan to fit one in the winter. 
Don't forget the magnets!

Thank you and good night ... 
Garry


----------



## raynipper

Following Garry's helpful advice I have just drained the gear box oil and out came more than 2.5 litres of relatively good looking oil. It wasn't clear but also not jet black. 
Maybe it had already been refilled by the previous owner.

I will be refilling with 2.5L of fully synthetic gear oil and placing a very strong speaker magnet low down on the cover for my own peace of mind.

Thanks again Garry.

Ray.


----------



## GGrigg

*Feed back/road test*

Just done >250 mile round trip Manchester/Cropredy nr Banbury no problem.

I took it steady gradually increasing the use of 5th. 
Absolutely no leaver movement on and off power.

I did allow the revs to drop off while on motorway inclines then powered up in 4th. Generally lighter footed in top, keeping the load down.

The thought struck while travelling down that stirring up the box by dropping down a gear may best be done on a down hill stretch WITHOUT lifting off the clutch and engaging the engine. Shhhhh coasting I know.

Simply engaging the gear, stirs up the gearbox oil with the lower ratio cogs without howling the motor.

No nasty noises from any bearings either.

I plan to remove the 5th pan with magnets in the winter and have a look when I change the oil so I will report back then ...

Garry


----------



## NormanB

Garry,

A superb article - thank you for taking the time and effort. I feel confident about doing my own now.

Sharing your experience like this is really appreciated.


----------



## zoro

*5th gear update*

My 5th gear problem update.

Just had my 5th gear uprated by Geo at Pecks Hill Garage, Mansfield.

Made quite a difference to the rev's driving over 60mph. It suits my driving style and I appear to still have plenty of power for the motorway hills. 
:lol: :lol:

If anyone wants a low ratio 5th gear, I have one - low mileage

Steve


----------



## Wombat2

*Re: High 5th gear*



zoro said:


> I have a 2005 2.8 JTD in a Hymer.
> I intended to have the 5th gear changed to what I was led to believe is a higher ratio set while the van was serviced and new cam belt fitted next week.
> (The reason for this is that at a true speed of 55mph (GPS) I am pulling 2750 rpm which makes me believe that I have the low ratio 5th gear.)
> 
> The garage that was to carry out this work has told me that when they contacted Fiat for the relevant parts (two cogs I believe) they where told that no such parts exists.
> 
> So is there anyone out there who has had this work done, and if so, do they have the part numbers or can they put me in touch with a garage that has carried out this work.
> Many thanks
> Steve F


I would have thought that the majority of 244 Ducatos have the higher 5th gear fitted as standard as I read somewhere that it was only the version destined for the German market & some other country ??? that have the lower ratio as fitted to yours, as well some versions had a more powerful engine 146kw against the "normal" 128Kw. So I would assume if you contacted a UK Fiat dealer he would automatically supply the standard higher ratio gear set.
Ours here in Oz is a 03 2.8 JTD & does around 96-97 Kph @ 2,000 RPM & in some situations the gap between 4th & 5th can be a problem on certain roads - eg :hilly with 80K speed limit (too slow for 5th too fast for 4th). But I would not change it as it it gives good economy. I have tried looking in the Eper for the part numbers but it is difficult to tell which is which as it doesn't tell you which gear/part it is other than "gear or syncro" etc.


----------



## greygit

*Re: High 5th gear*

Hi Guys
Fantastic post Garry, realy likes the pics even I could follow that!
Does anyone know or does any know how I can find out when Fiat did the lubrication mod to the box.
ours is a 2003 reg, but say a 2002 chassis.
Worried.
Gary
8O


----------



## greygit

*Re: High 5th gear*



greygit said:


> Hi Guys
> Fantastic post Garry, realy likes the pics even I could follow that!
> Does anyone know or does any know how I can find out when Fiat did the lubrication mod to the box.
> ours is a 2003 reg, but say a 2002 chassis.
> Worried.
> Gary
> 8O


Apparently it was 2002 ish if you have the lift up collar on the gear lever and you have to select reverse by travelling away and up then it is the modified gearbox and fifth shouldn't be a problem.......touch wood.
Gary


----------



## 109472

Hi, well it looks like I have fallen foul of 5th Gear fault and first of all let me thank all those who have contributed to this post. I have just driven down to Devon and near Bristol on the M5 5th gear jumped out and would not go back. My unit is 1999 Autotrail with 2.5 TDI engine with 30k on the clock.. It has the same unit bolted to the gearbox as shown in the great pics put up by Garry.
Sorry if this is long winded but I am on a site about 12 miles from Plymouth and wondered if anybody knows of a repairer nearby that is good but reasonable. I do not have the tools with me to do the job and live in Lincolnshire now.

Many thanks
Dave


----------



## inkey-2008

Part no's for 2002 Fiat 2.8 jti 5th gear 

F1632808880 cover
Foo71730222 Gear
F9607060988 Nut
F0071730204 Gear

These gears are the lower ratio set.

Andy


----------



## GGrigg

*No special tools needed.*

Jack it up. 
13mm(?) spanner to get the cover off. If you can get it high enough you may not nee to drop the oil. But you wouldn't run it with the debris in anyway would you.

Screwdriver and hammer to bend the tab washers. 
Nice big adjustable to to crack the nuts on the shafts. 
Undo and slide selector fork off (one bolt) with the syncro ring.\Note orientation of fork!!!! 
Slide cogs off. Big one will need persuading with the screwdriver.

Reassembly is the reverse of the above.

I reckon against the clock 1 hour with all parts to hand. 
Plaster the casing with strong magnets to keep future debris out of the main box. 
You'll see where its from off the edged of the fine teeth on the syncro/main gear.

Good garage will do it outside if they cant get it on the ramp.

Biggest hassle is sourcing bits refilling the box!

Don't forget background notes at:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYkfNGrIkfXxZGZiZ3RzcnhfMGM5YnRxOWRj&hl=en

Good luck, let us know how you get on please?

Garry


----------



## EuropeanCampers

My new van is a 2.8jtd, im a tad concerned now.

Does this affect the older 2.8 TD or is the 2.8jtd affected also? It's an 03 into 04 vintage. Thanks.


----------



## stevefly

*Ducato fifth Thanks Gary*

What a real gent,Gary has provided a fool proof series of photos and instructions that gave me the confidance to take this on.
With Garys help and encoragement I have stripped down the 5th gear got the parts, including very powerful magnets from Maplins @ £8-99.
I will fit a filler cap to the pan as suggested and refill this evening.
It is a pretty easy job and not worth the ridiculous £££ that Fiat dealers charge for what in the Garage should be no more than an hours Labour.
It took me two hrs and that included making an 8mm sq tool to open the oil drain plug.(from an old cement trowl handle)that to be honest was the most difficult part of the Job.

All the best Steve.e Cumbria

ps compleated in the drive.

pps While it was in bits I brazed an oil filler cap to the top of the 5th gear cover and filled the box through that without any problems


----------



## Rayo

I was advised NEVER to change up 5th gear until travelling at AT LEAST
50mph. So far so good. Mind you, only 9,000m on mine in 3.5 years.

Worth remembering when you get the repair done.


----------



## JockandRita

GEH007 said:


> clipped...Does this affect the older 2.8 TD


Yes, I'd like to know that too.



Rayo said:


> I was advised NEVER to change up 5th gear until travelling at AT LEAST
> 50mph. So far so good. Mind you, only 9,000m on mine in 3.5 years.
> 
> Worth remembering when you get the repair done.


We were given the same advice, and ours (2.8Tdi), has done 77,000 Kms (about 48,000 miles), without any problem. Anyway, it just doesn't feel right at anything under 50 mph.

Cheers,

Jock.


----------



## hippypair

I have a 1998 peugeot 2.5td.
In june 2007 just pass Rouen on the way to Le mans my 5th gear packed up.

By then the van had done 60000 miles.

I drove to Le Mans and back with no 5th gear but had to drive more slowly.

Had the repair done by Duffmorgan of Norwich,total cost was £464.
Was advised to not drive in 5th gear until oil had a chance to warm up,also not to use 5th. gear under 50 mph.

Van has now done 75500.

Terry.


----------



## macfi

I have a 2002 model and had the 5th gear problem while travelling through Spain, expensive repair when you are away, like many previous post's I was told to run 5-10 mins from cold using 1-4 then select 5th but on long runs use 4th as well, will try the magnet idea, as I saw the state of the gears and syncro hub when it came off.


----------



## GGrigg

*Gearbbox*

Just returned from circuit of Wales with no problems. 
Looks like the repair is bedding in.

Didn't use full power of the wonderful engine through the 5th gear. 
Light peddle and not must less than 50mph. 
Selected 4th form time to time on long stint on A55 ... don't bother dropping clutch and engaging engine as just selecting the gear stirs the oil up!

Very deliberate selection of other cogs too. 
The chamfered edge of the syncro teeth (on all gears) encourages throw-out it under ANY power as you look to slide out of the gear.

Steve E has fitted a filler boss while off ... nice one. 
If positioned correctly you \may even be able to use it as an inspection port?

Also running on next size up van tires. 
This increases the load "head room" NOT the capacity! 
A little more comfort, less THUMP \than the aging Camping tires. 
Presumably due to more flexible walls.

I plan to run for a couple of years. Thus getting fresh tires frequently at a fraction of the cost of camping tires. Discuss....!

Garry


----------



## stevefly

*5th gear*

All done and dusted,and just had a couple of days up in the Boarders and everything is fine.
Total bill,

£354 for the gearbox parts
£8-95 magnets
£30 for the 3lts of gearbox oil although their is sure to be somewhere cheaper than halfords !!!

and two hours work.

The only stressful bit was Claire doubting my ability to do the job and the first change up into 5th gear!


----------



## HeadInTheClouds

*Re: its a 2 hour job external to the main box*



GGrigg said:


> I have JUST done it.
> Only need to refill the box and I should be mobile again.
> I have posted pictures of the step by step process but not tided up yet.
> You need drive and driven cogs. matched pair but only the syncro teeth on the drive are goosed, and a syncro hub.
> Total price 400GBP and 2 hours.
> Good news is the gasket is a reusable rubber seal!
> Do from under the wheel arch.
> Email [email protected] and Ill give you my mobile number.
> Garry
> Manchester
> UK


Gary, I am sure you must be fed up with people contacting you about the photos, so "sorry" in advance!

Firstly what an excellent job, better by far than the Ducato / C25 / Talbot book, which is not far off useless!

A quick question, did your Ducato jump out of gear or just sound like a pile of nails had got loose in the gearbox - or something else?

Mine (1993 2.5 td) developed a nasty (loose nail / grinding/ whirring) sound in Agay (South of France) 8 days back.... I nursed it home to Cheshire all 1500 km or more (tow home doesn't tow if it is still working does it!). It sounds noisy as it comes up to half revs, especially 4th gear, but all gears are a bit noisy, but at 3/4 max rpm, ease off on the throttle and she goes quiet (sort of easing back on the engine to where it would be closest to possible to change gear without clutch).

thanks


----------



## TAM

*Re: its a 2 hour job external to the main box*



HeadInTheClouds said:


> GGrigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have JUST done it.
> Only need to refill the box and I should be mobile again.
> I have posted pictures of the step by step process but not tided up yet.
> You need drive and driven cogs. matched pair but only the syncro teeth on the drive are goosed, and a syncro hub.
> Total price 400GBP and 2 hours.
> Good news is the gasket is a reusable rubber seal!
> Do from under the wheel arch.
> Email [email protected] and Ill give you my mobile number.
> Garry
> Manchester
> UK
> 
> 
> 
> Gary, I am sure you must be fed up with people contacting you about the photos, so "sorry" in advance!
> 
> Firstly what an excellent job, better by far than the Ducato / C25 / Talbot book, which is not far off useless!
> 
> A quick question, did your Ducato jump out of gear or just sound like a pile of nails had got loose in the gearbox - or something else?
> 
> Mine (1993 2.5 td) developed a nasty (loose nail / grinding/ whirring) sound in Agay (South of France) 8 days back.... I nursed it home to Cheshire all 1500 km or more (tow home doesn't tow if it is still working does it!). It sounds noisy as it comes up to half revs, especially 4th gear, but all gears are a bit noisy, but at 3/4 max rpm, ease off on the throttle and she goes quiet (sort of easing back on the engine to where it would be closest to possible to change gear without clutch).
> 
> thanks
Click to expand...

new to the site and new(ish) to motorhomes.
Ducato may 2002 just completed a 2800 mile journey Scotland Salou and return, total milage now 10600. Just turning off the A74 (26 miles from home) and went into 5th and found I had no drive, sugar (or similar) limped home. Found the website on google and Garry,s superb contribution including photos. So I went for it. stripped down and found no missing teeth, (mines has 7 or 8 mounting bolts not 5) suspected (and still do) lack of oil. On re-assembly I found 10 teeth behind the second skin on the cover.
Just to be on the safe side will strip it down tomorrow to re-inspect (eyes are not what they used to be) Suspect the previous owner had the same problem, got it sorted and got rid. Hence 2002 Rollerteam 5 berth with 6300 miles on the clock for £14Gs 5 month ago.
Magnets are a great idea but maybe the second skin is designed to catch the teeth as the fly off, cynic I know.
Will update with confirmation.
Mines does not has the balls as described by Garry. It has a wire spring configuration.
THANK YOU GARRY


----------



## TDG

*Re: No special tools needed.*



GGrigg said:


> ..I reckon against the clock 1 hour with all parts to hand.
> Plaster the casing with strong magnets to keep future debris out of the main box.
> ...Garry


I don't know if anyone else has suggested it, but the Sea Searcher Magnet might be good - it can lift >50 Kg :wink: 
They about £25


----------



## TAM

Further to my 5th gear problem. 
I stripped it out again and had a closer look (magnifying glass) and comparing mines to Garry,s photos and to my horror, all the teeth on the back end of the fifth gear were missing (54 in total) :evil: I hunted a bit more and drained the oil, only 1.5 litres in it, strained it and found another three teeth (two on the drain plug)

The oil was not a nice colour considering the motorhome has only done 10,000 odd miles on the clock.

Phoned the FIAT dealer in Ayr and he can sell me a new fifth gear for £128.80 + VAT = £151.34 (my Vat calculation) which seems pretty cheap considering what I have read on here.

Problem, the missing teeth are presumably inside the main box or been crunched to smithereens.

How concerned should I be about the missing teeth (just completed 2800 miles to Salou and back) only done the last 20 miles with four gears. Nothing seemed un-towards throughout the journey, in fact it was brilliant, up until it went.
Conclusion, how do I flush it through? and what type and how much fully synthetic oil do I put in?

THANKS IN ADVANCE

TAM H


----------



## Pyranha

TAM said:


> Phoned the FIAT dealer in Ayr and he can sell me a new fifth gear for £128.80 + VAT = £151.34 (my Vat calculation) which seems pretty cheap considering what I have read on here.


Tam

Can you give me the name/number of that dealer in Ayr? My parts contact has spoken to the one near us in Perthshire, and been quoted £220incVAT.

And if anyone else has a more reasonably priced source of parts, I would be grateful for pointers.

Thanks

Damien


----------



## TAM

I got the fifth gear in Arnold Clarks (Fiat dealer) on Galloway avenue
Ayr, turn left at the big round-a-bout on the A76. You can view it on Google earth street view.
It cost £128 odd (VAT included) please note, I only purchased the fifth gear (no other part) as nothing else appears to be damaged.
I fitted it at the weekend, pre-assembled it on the table and it slid on like a glove. I am putting oil in it tomorrow and going for a run. Been advised by a mechanic that I might be lucky in that the missing teeth have made their way into a hidey hole. Because I had no other symptoms, crunching or problems selecting any other gears I feel confident.
Will post tomorrow on the outcome, fingers crossed.
Any further help or advice please ask.

TAM H

Edited in. I think I will remove the 5th gear before my long run to Spain to inspect.


----------



## erneboy

I will be interested to hear what happens. I would have thought that the only way to be sure there isn't a lot of loose metal in the gearbox would be to strip it, clean it and rebuild it. Not a particularly easy job, but when set against the price of a new box maybe it's worth it.

Having said that I have read on here about Fiat dealers fitting a new fifth gear with the box in situ, I think. If they have been doing that they haven't been able to clean the debris out very effectively, so perhaps it all makes it's way to the bottom and is OK.

I don't know, interesting, Alan.


----------



## TAM

If I had found all the teeth I would obviously be MORE confident (40 odd missing) and this is probably Fiat,s answer to not stripping the box.
If I had the time I would prefer to strip the box to try and find the missing teeth (never done it before) but we shall wait and see.
Going away for Xmas and then the New Year meet at Kelso before we head to Spain again in January so the couple of runs will bring any problems to the surface.
I will post results of my run out tomorrow.

TAM H


----------



## TAM

Filled it with 85W 90 oil (£12.75 for 3 X 1 litre bottles) there is a plastic breather on top of the box just to the left and behind the reversing light switch that has been mentioned as a filler place. I pulled off the top of the breather and used a tube and syphoned in 2.5 litres, took a while but I was in no hurry.  

Took it for a run today 8O ran it for a good 7 or 8 miles then went for it, :?: :?: dipped the clutch, slipped it into 5th, off the clutch and..................................................YEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA    not a problem, everything went fine. Up and down a few times and perfect.
FEEL realy proud of myself :roll: :roll: all sorted for under £150.
May even buy a spare and carry it and all the tools round with me considering what others have paid away from home.
By the way I am no mechanic or expert  just a genius (wife said that)

TAM H


----------



## TDG

TAM said:


> May even buy a spare and carry it and all the tools round with me considering what others have paid away from home.
> By the way I am no mechanic or expert  just a genius (wife said that)..TAM H


Well done - makes you feel real good don't it 8) 8) 8)


----------



## JockandRita

TAM said:


> Filled it with 85W 90 oil (£12.75 for 3 X 1 litre bottles) there is a plastic breather on top of the box just to the left and behind the reversing light switch that has been mentioned as a filler place. I pulled off the top of the breather and used a tube and syphoned in 2.5 litres, took a while but I was in no hurry.
> 
> Took it for a run today 8O ran it for a good 7 or 8 miles then went for it, :?: :?: dipped the clutch, slipped it into 5th, off the clutch and..................................................YEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA    not a problem, everything went fine. Up and down a few times and perfect.
> FEEL realy proud of myself :roll: :roll: all sorted for under £150.
> May even buy a spare and carry it and all the tools round with me considering what others have paid away from home.
> By the way I am no mechanic or expert  just a genius (wife said that)
> 
> TAM H


Nice one Tam. :thumbleft:

Thanks for the update.

Jock *(originally Newton on Ayr, then Belmont).*


----------



## TAM

Couple of tips.
As already mentioned, take photos as you are stripping it down.
On re-assemble, the fifth gear flat on the table (wee teeth facing up)
The other three cog bits (don,t know the names) two fit inside the third, watch how they fit, there appears to be wider teeth (on the inside) where the other two inter-locking parts fit. Place the assembled part on top of the gear on the table and turn the top part of the assembly and the whole lot should turn. Telling you that it is assembled correctly. play about with them to make sure you get it right, thats how I found the wider teeth, hardly visable, they all look the same.
It all just slips on as one.  
On filling with oil, I sat the three one litre bottles on the radiator in my hall for half an hour to heat the oil making it easier to syphon. It still takes a while. Instead of changing the bottles I just kept topping up the first bottle leaving me with half a litre in the thrid bottle. :wink: 
Hope this helps somebody. Any one with a question or expert wishing to make a point or correct meplease feel free.
I will treat 5th gear with more respect in future  

TAM H


----------



## erneboy

Glad to hear it seems OK Tam. Please keep us posted in a few thousand miles.

Just a thought changing the oil again in a while might deliver a bit more debris and ensure that the oil is not full of metallic bits, Alan.


----------



## TAM

erneboy said:


> Glad to hear it seems OK Tam. Please keep us posted in a few thousand miles.
> 
> Just a thought changing the oil again in a while might deliver a bit more debris and ensure that the oil is not full of metallic bits, Alan.


Alan, it seems a good idea and I had thought about it. :idea: Not nessesarily change the oil, just drain it, strain it and put it back in.
As it only cost £12.75 (for 3 litres) you may be right 

I will keep you posted, good  or bad 

TAM H


----------



## jacknjill

Hi all,
just as an aside, has anyone thought about putting an additive in with the oil?
I use an additive in my engine which can also be used on anything with moving parts, it`s called ZX1.
I saw the demonstration on QVC a number of years ago, they put a round piece of untreated metal against a grinding wheel with a measured amount of pressure and put enough pressure on it to stop the wheel, the metal was almost flattened one side, they then did the same with a treated piece and no matter what pressure they put on they could not stop the wheel & the metal hardly had a scratch on it.
I beleive the additive is also used by NASA.
Point being is that if when treated the 5th gear is starved of oil the moving parts will be protected.
ZX1 can be bought from Halfords for app £20.
Peter.


----------



## TAM

Never heard about it but just read some reports and it sounds as if it is what we need. I am blaming a lack of oil on my 5th gear problem (no leaks) and with no over-heating indicator this could solve that problem.
Any other views from anyone?

TAM H


----------



## lanzaron

*Fiat gearbox 5th gear failure*

Really helpfull and informative articale and replys.Could any one sugest were i could buy a filler boss and plug to have welded or brazed into the gearbox case to aid re filling.


----------



## TAM

After doing it and taking it for a wee run to check it was okay. I decided a longer run was required so went for a 50 mile round trip. Up and down from 4th to 5th purposely along the journey and not one indication of anything un-towards.  
So realy pleased with the results. Heading away for Xmas and then again Hogmany (Kelso meet) so will drain the oil, check for bits, remove the cover and inspect, :?: then replace the oil ready for our 2800 mile round trip to Spain on the 7th. May take a spare 5th gear with me,  
Will keep you posted.  

TAM H


----------



## TAM

Hi Sorry me again

I sourced what appears to be powerful magnets and look to be just the job for what we want.

It is on Ebay, item number Item number: 16050002
They are sold in pairs for £9.99 FREE P&P
He has sold 40 pairs but does have plenty left.

I have ordered mines.  

TAM H


----------



## JockandRita

TAM said:


> It is on Ebay, item number Item number: 16050002
> They are sold in pairs for £9.99 FREE P&P
> He has sold 40 pairs but does have plenty left.
> 
> I have ordered mines.
> 
> TAM H


Sorry Tam, but it comes up as "0 results found".

Regards,

Jock.


----------



## TAM

Re MAGNETS 
The magnets I got from flebay arrived today.
They are smaller than I thought 50mm X 25mm X10 mm, I'm still pints & gallons. :roll: 
But defo the most powerfull magnets I have come across. I could not pull the two apart, when I was trying I managed to attract a fork which fastened itself to the magnets.  
To seperate them I had to slide them away from each other.
Very pleased.  
Small but very powerful, bit like myself :roll: 

TAM H


----------



## JockandRita

TAM said:


> Small but very powerful, bit like myself :roll:
> 
> TAM H


Aye, and I'll be the same when mine arrive. :lol:

Thanks for the info Tam.

Cheers,

Jock.


----------



## dw1

I'm going to look at a motorhome with a 2001 2.8jtd engine. it's done 28k mles. Now having read some of the posts I'm really nervous about the 5th gear syndrome. Is there anything i can look for or check, to try and avoid falling into the same problem?
cheers
David


----------



## TAM

I am assuming it is a Fiat Ducatto.
Mines is a 5 berth 2002 1.9TD (I purchased it in June) the 4th gear went on me after a trip to Spain, 20 miles from home with 10000 mules on the clock. There was no indication it was about to go, it just would not go into fifth, the gear lever went in but just no drive.
I replaced it for under £150.
Ask questions, has it been replaced? then look at the fifth gear housing, any magnets on it??????? has it been off???

I got a great deal on mine, send me a PM for the price I paid to give you an idea of what you should be paying.

GOOD LUCK

TAM H


----------



## dw1

HI again Tam, pm sent. How will you make sure that the same thing doesn't happen again?
cheers
David


----------



## TAM

The only thing I can think of is the advice already mentioned.
don,t change into fifth until the engine and gearbox oil is warmed up. and not until you are doing 50MPH. :? 
Changing down going up hill. :roll: 
Remembering, all other gears are designed to do the work, fifth is for cruising ONLY. :idea: 
Basically try not to put strain on the fifth gear.  
Heading off in the motorhome for Xmas Weekend, then Hogmanay weekend before we head back to Spain for a couple of weeks on the 8th January, so it is going to be put to the test. 8O 
Any problems I do have will be posted on here near the end of January, as well as a normal update if nothing happens.  

TAM H


----------



## TDG

Another possible source of magnets if anyone is still looking:-
http://www.gyroscope.com/Magnetics/


----------



## TAM

TAM AGAIN :roll: 
Just returned from the Kelso hogmany meet (great weekend) would recommend it, we are going next year as we were made welcome by the majority (you always get one :wink: ) It was our first time and will do again.  
A round trip of 220 miles and not one hitch, up and down from 4th to 5th and no indication of anything untowards. Off next week to Spain where I intend to take the cover off to have a look, may drain the oil as well depending what I find. Will report back from the (slightly) warmer climate :roll: 

TAM H


----------



## TDG

TAM said:


> ........... Off next week to Spain......... Will report back from the (slightly) warmer climate :roll: ..TAM H


You lucky .....  
Hope you have a really great trip and by the time you get back 5th will be given no more thought than 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th :wink:


----------



## cje101

*Cut off date for problems*

I have read all the threads to this problem with great interest and gained a lot of knowledge on how to sort the problem if it occurs.
The only unanswered question is at what year did Fiat resolve the problem? I have a 2006 Bessacarr with 15,000 miles on it, is the 2006 model included with this problem?

Thanks

Chris


----------



## cje101

What year is your Roller Team?


----------



## TAM

HI
My ROLLER TEAM is 1.9TD 2002.
It is not a big job as I explained in earlier posts.
I am now in Spain after driving 1250 miles in 3 days and never had the slightest problem all the way down. I am now confident my 5th gear is fine. I may take the cover off and have a look.

I would suggest draining the oil and sieve it just to see if anything comes out and also to see how much oil is in it, I think my problem was not enough oil and the part heating up before all the teeth ripped off.

My Roller team had a full service (receipt for £700) and some work done to it prior to me buying it but they never checked the oil. I put in one litre more than I took out, better too much than not enough.
Hope this helps.

TAM H


----------



## Midnightrambler

Just had my first decent journey in the van since Christmas & had a bit of difficulty getting into 5th & also reverse. Would the lack of oil in the gearbox has mentioned earlier be the reason?
Thanks in advance
Alan


----------



## TAM

Hi
Does not sound good does it. When my fifth went, it went completely no prior warning. When I took the fifth gear off every tooth had gone on the inside ring.
I,m no expert but problems getting into fifth and it jumping out of fifth indicate to me that teeth are already missing. I would drain the oil, seive it and measure how much comes out.
My previous posts on this topic explain better what I did and where I believe the problems lie.
Keep us up to date, and any help I can be, just ask.

TAM H


----------



## TAM

After replacing my 5th gear (explained in pages 8 & 9) for under £150 a few months back, I have just returned from a 3000 mile trip to Spain and never had one problem.  
Convinced now that I did a good job, better infact than the Fiat mechanic who fitted it and never put enough oil in the gearbox :evil: 
I blame the problem on lack of oil, not being fed enough from the main box, this is why I say overfill rather than underfill. :idea: 

TAM H


----------



## wackywyco

Chris, the problem was sorted on the later boxes(Spanish I think). The ones with reverse gate position on a dogleg to the left and forward.


----------



## TAM

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works  but my reverse gate is on a dog leg left forward.
1.9TD 2002.

TAM H


----------

