# Am I covered by RAC in France if no spare tyre?



## RASSER

In common with most new 'vans my Hymer B554 doesn't have a spare, just the pump and bottle of sealant.
On the basis of prevention better than cure, I have had Tyresafe put in all the tyres and will take a steel rim, but no tyre due to weight and space considerations.
I know this leaves me at risk in case the tyre and alloy are damaged and asked Comfort insurance (Aviva) what RAC would do if I called them out in France and all they could say is that 'it is a grey area'!
I asked RAC who stated it what dependant on the Aviva policy, so no clearer.
They did say that if I had the RAC 'Advantage' policy through the Camping & Caravan Club, then provided I had tried to remedy the puncture by pumping up etc ( n/a if tyre shredded) then they would fetch a new tyre and obviously charge for the cost of the tyre.
Has anyone any experience of this as I don't want to face a large cost for towing off the motorway in France because the RAC won't attend if no spare! Will they charge an excess for their trouble?
Obviously better to have the full spare if space allowed.
Thanks
Bob


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## bognormike

it's a fairly common situation with cars now - my Honda doesn't have a spare. just the squirty stuff with a compressor. If you've done all you can and can satisfy the breakdown service that you have done so, then no problem. bear in mind that it will be an independent breakdown service, and they will have to do 2 trips - one to jack up & remove the wheel and then to go away & get it repaired or replaced. I would suggest that you don't use the gunk, just get them out to get it repaired. I used the gunk on my Honda and the garage I took the wheel to would not repair it because of the stuff on the inside of the tyre; I had to get a new tyre. This would be very expensive on a motorhome, well over the cost of a repair job!


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## eurajohn

Something else to think of as well, is if you need to use the steel wheel you will need the appropriate bolts as they are different to the alloy wheel ones.


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## Mrplodd

Dont take ANYONES word of mouth they can always deny it in the future, you require something in writing to be certain of what cover you have!

Get yourself a copy of the policy you have purchased (has to be supplied if you request it) and read it VERY carefully.

I cannot remember where but I can recall reading a breakdown policy which clearly stated a requirement of the cover was that you carried a "serviceable" spare wheel and tyre. Pretty self explanatory really.

Personally I have invested in an additional wheel and tyre. Its a pain in the **** in the garage as its certainly not a small or lightweight item BUT but it does mean I am not going to get stranded at the roadside, in the middle of nowhere, at night, in the rain, in a dangerous position ! 

I really cannot remember the last time I had a puncture that actually required me to change a wheel and tyre, but that hasnt stopped me getting a spare for the MH !!


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## padraigpost

Must agree with Mrplodd,
I refused to buy my van without a spare wheel and the dealer agreed to include one as a condition of sale (an alloy one as well) as there is no garage on my van and I always tow a small trailer behind which holds windbreaks, drive away awning, chairs & loungers etc. this is where the spare wheel lives (I also have spare for trailer) I carry a trolley jack in the trailer as there is no way I would trust the scissor jack supplied with the vehicle.
Don


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## raynipper

Agreed Don.
I refused to order a new VW Tiguan last month as it didn't come with a spare. It was only after I got up to leave saying I would now visit the KIA dealer that the VW salesman conceded and said for an extra €220 they could supply one.

I said that was robbery and left. Gone off the idea now.

Ray.


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## p-c

Hi
I also agree, I must have a complete spare with me but also lucky in having a garage.
Referring to the original post, am I right in saying that you have to pay for the tow off the motorway in France? You then claim this back from your breakdown company. What would happen if the breakdown company then queried carrying a spare etc?
p-c


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## Grizzly

RASSER said:


> .....asked Comfort insurance (Aviva) what RAC would do if I called them out in France and all they could say is that 'it is a grey area'!
> I asked RAC who stated it what dependant on the Aviva policy, so no clearer.


I would write to both parties- RAC and Aviva- copying my letter to both. In the letter I would state the "nightmare" scenario (ie you left at side of French road, no spare and shredded tyre) and state exactly what you expect them to do ( ie repair or replace tyre either at the roadside or by removing you and van from the road to a safe place and then repairing or replacing the tyre. I would then ask them to confirm, in writing, that this is exactly what they would do.

Insurance companies make sure we tell everything as it is before they will insure us and are very quick to refuse payment in " grey areas" so they ought to be equally open with us as to what exactly they do insure. It is worth insisting or making it clear you will not insure with them again if they are not prepared to make it clear.

G


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## trevd01

eurajohn said:


> Something else to think of as well, is if you need to use the steel wheel you will need the appropriate bolts as they are different to the alloy wheel ones.


Something else to think of as well, is if you need to use the steel wheel you will need the appropriate bolts as they *may be* different to the alloy wheel ones.

(Our alloy wheels use the same bolts as the steel ones)


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## Telbell

As a mater of interest- those who are insured with MHF and breakdown cover:

Are you covered for tyre problems at roadside, and is that in writing??

(meaning of course if you don't have a spare)


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## rayc

Grizzly said:


> I would write to both parties- RAC and Aviva- copying my letter to both. In the letter I would state the "nightmare" scenario (ie you left at side of French road, no spare and shredded tyre) and state exactly what you expect them to do ( ie repair or replace tyre either at the roadside or by removing you and van from the road to a safe place and then repairing or replacing the tyre. I would then ask them to confirm, in writing, that this is exactly what they would do.
> 
> G


In the case of it happening on the autoroute then you will be recovered by the authorised agent back to their depot. You will have to pay this and hopefully claim it back from the Breakdown organisation. What happens next depends on the terms of the breakdown insurance you have with your insurer. If you have a spare the agent will replace it on the hard shoulder so you will be on your way quickly. 
Having just returned from a 3 week trip to France, covering 2000 miles and in some remote parts I would be very uncomfortable about travelling without a spare. I wonder how long it would take for a tyre to be sourced over a weekend or public holiday?


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## gaspode

I've just read through the MHF insurance document and there is no mention that I can see of a requirement to carry a spare wheel in either the UK or continental breakdown cover section. There is however an exclusion in force where tyres are unserviceable or unroadworthy.
My conclusion would be that for MHF members covered by this policy, they would be covered for breakdown due to tyre damage if they do not carry a spare tyre. My own assumption is that this would only apply where the vehicle was supplied new without a spare wheel by the manufacturer, not where a spare wheel supplied as original equipment by the manufacturer has been removed from the vehicle to save weight etc.

Where manufacturers supply vehicles with a repair kit instead of a spare I think it would be very difficult in law for any breakdown service provider to refuse to deal with a damaged tyre unless it was specifically excluded in their terms and conditions.

This is my personal interpretation for MHF policies only, if you want to be sure you should contact your insurer direct.

If you analyze the situation logically, it's almost as likely these days that a breakdown would be caused by an electronic fault but no-one suggests that we should carry a spare ECU do they?

PS: I still think it's best to carry a spare if possible, simply to avoid the probable delay and expense that would be experienced if one was not readily available.

PPS: Does anyone remember when we all used to carry a spare fanbelt? I wonder how many of us do that these days............... :wink:


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## CurlyBoy

I have just done the cover, for our trip to France, with the CC red pennant and they "specifically" mention that they will not cover a puncture repair unless a serviceable spare is carried in the MH.
curlyboy


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## Spiritofherald

I'm puzzled how they can demand a spare is carried when by law you don't have to. If you do carry one then it must be legal, but there is no requirement to carry one.

Of course that doesn't mean that breakdown companies are bound by that, they can make any rules they choose, but it does seem a little unfair especially when many manufacturers don't supply spare wheels.


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## rayc

I see that Aviva is shedding jobs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22198676


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## Telbell

"I've just read through the MHF insurance document and there is no mention that I can see of a requirement to carry a spare wheel in either the UK or continental breakdown cover section. There is however an exclusion in force where tyres are unserviceable or unroadworthy. 
My conclusion would be that for MHF members covered by this policy, they would be covered for breakdown due to tyre damage if they do not carry a spare tyre. My own assumption is that this would only apply where the vehicle was supplied new without a spare wheel by the manufacturer, not where a spare wheel supplied as original equipment by the manufacturer has been removed from the vehicle to save weight etc."

Thanks Gaspode. And as MHF I believe has the same underwriters as Comfort, would this be one of the "Grey Areas" that Comfort refer to.

I appreciate your view (a reasonable assumption I think) but it is only an opinion and, as MHF is supposedly the "bees knees" and has won awards, I'd be surprised if such an eventuality isn't covered, particularly as more and more manufacturers omit to supply a spare.

At the moment I'm not an mhf customer but could be tempted. But can anyone tell us for definite??


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## raynipper

I don't know the exact numbers but if the breakdown service just changed your spare wheel, this would then allow you to seek a replacement new tyre at about half the cost of one off the breakdown service shelf.

Ray.


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## eurajohn

If's ands buts and maybe's. 
Forget all of the speculations and arguments, if you damage a tyre badly enough to require it to be changed for another one without a spare you are going to encounter a fair amount of delay and disruption to whatever journey you are on. 
As others have pointed out the likelihood of getting an immediate replacement out of hours is unlikely, whether your breakdown insurance covers you or not, so to be secure get a spare.


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## RASSER

Thanks everyone for your replies.
My understanding is that Comfort Insurance also administer the Aviva Horizon Advantage breakdown/recovery policy promoted by MHF.
As stated above it looks like there is no specific requirement in the Aviva policy to carry a spare other than the general 'get-out clause' of 'if in RAC's opinion, the demands made are excessive, unreasonable or impracticable'
The exclusion of 'breakdown due to unservicable/unroadworthy tyres', is a grey area and whilst I presume unroadworthy means basically illegal, I wonder how they define 'unservisable' !!!!

I will write to Comfort asking for clarification.

A full spare is obviously the answer, but it would be nice to know the answer to the recovery question as it potentially affects a lot of drivers.
Thanks again,
Bob


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## peedee

CurlyBoy said:


> I have just done the cover, for our trip to France, with the CC red pennant and they "specifically" mention that they will not cover a puncture repair unless a serviceable spare is carried in the MH.
> curlyboy


I suggest you read it again curly, they will, but they charge you an excess of £100.

I have been monitoring and sometimes contributing to posts about spare wheels for some time. I do not have a spare wheel for my motorhome and it is becoming more and more common for vehicles not to have one. This is because the risks of having a puncture with properly cared for and inflated modern day tyres is really quite small. I think you will find that breakdown services are beginning to recognise this fact and are making allowances for this but like Red Pennant this might be at a price.

I recently spoke to Green Flag about this trying to find out what they would typically charge. I couldn't change a wheel on my van without assistance anyway even if I carried a spare and on motorways you are supposed to call out the breakdown services rather than do it yourself. I am not sure I believe what I was told but GF said there would be no extra call out charge!

I have also investigated the cost of a spare wheel and tyre, new its £350 to £400 depending whose tyre you fit, so really, with such a small risk, it looks like it is not cost effective to carry a spare wheel even if you can find a solution to carrying one. As I have a twin rear wheel configuration what I have done, to help, is to fit a TyrePal 6 sensor TPMS. Costly, but even if I had a spare I would have done this from a safety aspect anyway.

Nevertheless I still feel uncomfortable about not carrying a spare especially when touring the Continent so I have purchased a tyre only which I can strap to a bicycle rack for when touring on the Continent. At the moment, in this country I do not intend to carry it.

peedee


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## 113016

Good idea peedee, to carry a replacement tyre.
The first thing I did, after returning home with our newly purchased van, was to buy a wheel and tyre. I couldn't be bothered to look for a used wheel, and then clean and paint it up  so I paid for a new steel wheel, not forgetting a set of new studs as our fitted wheels are alloy and have different studs. 
I didn't go for a tyre match, but fitted an ordinary van tyre (Hancook) and, of medium quality. It will only be used as a get me home, or to a tyre fitter, so it will do the job! I paid less than £200.
Sods law  a week after I purchased the spare tyre and wheel, someone on ebay, and local to me, was selling suitable new and unused, spare wheels and tyre,s for less than £100


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## zoro

For those of you who rely on the 'gung' check its 'use by date' as mine had expired when I decided to stop carrying it.
I also insisted on a spare wheel when doing the deal for my MH.
Steve


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## Grizzly

peedee said:


> This is because the risks of having a puncture with properly cared for and inflated modern day tyres is really quite small.
> peedee


We're on our 4th puncture with this van, in 6 years, peedee. We're a bit obsessive about proper inflation and care, shade the tyres when the van is in storage but the last one was on a tyre less than 2 months old.

We reckon that the ferry companies shed rivets etc on their ramps...could it be that they have shares in a tyre firm ?

We don't go in for d.i.y. either but, touch wood, the breakdown companies have not put up our premium and do come out to sort it with reasonable speed and efficiency.

G


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## lalala

trevd01 said:


> eurajohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Something else to think of as well, is if you need to use the steel wheel you will need the appropriate bolts as they are different to the alloy wheel ones.
> 
> 
> 
> Something else to think of as well, is if you need to use the steel wheel you will need the appropriate bolts as they *may be* different to the alloy wheel ones.
> 
> (Our alloy wheels use the same bolts as the steel ones)
Click to expand...

Our spare wheel (alloy) has just been stolen! We have replaced it with a steel wheel as this is meant to be less attractive, but the company we went to said nothing about needing different bolts. How do we know if we need these?
Lala


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## peedee

Grizzly said:


> We're on our 4th puncture with this van, in 6 years, peedee. We're a bit obsessive about proper inflation and care, shade the tyres when the van is in storage but the last one was on a tyre less than 2 months old.
> 
> We reckon that the ferry companies shed rivets etc on their ramps...could it be that they have shares in a tyre firm ?
> 
> We don't go in for d.i.y. either but, touch wood, the breakdown companies have not put up our premium and do come out to sort it with reasonable speed and efficiency.
> 
> G


You have been very unlucky G. I have only ever had one puncture in 13 years on a motorhome and that was a slow one spotted on my driveway. I cannot remember when I last had a puncture on a car, its well over 20 years ago.

Who has been providing you with a breakdown service please G. Nice to know who the reliable ones are.

peedee


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## trevd01

lalala said:


> trevd01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eurajohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Something else to think of as well, is if you need to use the steel wheel you will need the appropriate bolts as they are different to the alloy wheel ones.
> 
> 
> 
> Something else to think of as well, is if you need to use the steel wheel you will need the appropriate bolts as they *may be* different to the alloy wheel ones.
> 
> (Our alloy wheels use the same bolts as the steel ones)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Our spare wheel (alloy) has just been stolen! We have replaced it with a steel wheel as this is meant to be less attractive, but the company we went to said nothing about needing different bolts. How do we know if we need these?
> Lala
Click to expand...

Ideas:

Ask the company you bought the steel wheel from

Check with the main dealer / importer for your MH

Check with the manufacturer of your MH

Check with the wheel manufacturer of your alloys. Mine came with a TUV certificate giving details of who made them

Go to a main dealer for you MH base chassis, show them one of your alloy wheel bolts, and ask them to compare with the standard steel wheel bolts for your truck

Or the easiest? Buy five brand new steel wheel bolts from above truck dealer. Wont cost you much...


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## Telbell

Do all most Breakdown Rescue trucks have the facilities to swop tyres onto a wheel in the event of you just carrying a tyre??


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## raynipper

Weather it's luck or not but all three tyre problems I have had in the past 20+ years have been bolts or rivets in the treads of cars.
At least they allowed me to continue driving home or to a tyre service point.

But campers are often used close to or maybe over their design weights. This can cause 'blow outs' in the true sense. So quite a possibility of a complete tyre failure with any overloaded vehicles.

Now I think about it I did have a large 22.5" tyre blow out on my RV when returning from Le Mans some years ago.
It was a dual rear and took the wheel arch and side trim off as well. Cost a few bob to repair the fibreglass. Managed to limp home on the remaining dual at about 25mph.

Ray.


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## rayc

Telbell said:


> Do all most Breakdown Rescue trucks have the facilities to swop tyres onto a wheel in the event of you just carrying a tyre??


No but they can call on mobile fitters. If weight and not space is the problem carrying just a tyre makes sense.


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## eurajohn

Whilst I agree that the tyre idea is OK in UK and perhaps a lot of the more densely populated areas of Europe, I'd not want to rely on it for some of the "out of the way" places we get to in France, Spain or Portugal. 
I think you could have a very long wait for any sort of assistance let alone a mobile tyre fitter.


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## Mrplodd

"There is however an exclusion in force where tyres are unserviceable or unroadworthy"

Now MY view of that statement would be......

You have a puncture or whatever and call out the breakdown company. they duly arrive and you do not have a spare wheel to fit.

The (damaged) tyre fitted to your vehicle, by definition is, at that point in time, an"unserviceable or unroadworthy" tyre 

Now that is a personal opinion of course BUT bearing in mind insurance companies are not registered charities, they are in the business of making a profit, and paying out as little as they possibly can is part of making as much profit as possible.

UNLESS I had it in writing that I did not have to carry a spare wheel I would be very uncomfortable if I didnt have one.

As far as France is concerned how are you going to be towed off the motorway (or onto the bed of a recovery truck) if one of your tyres is knackered and totally deflated??? Are they going to tow (or winch) you on the wheel rim??? 

Dont think so do you???

I will leave you to form your own conclusion :wink: . 

Dont ever forget, an insurance company will only pay out as last resort, they are NOT there to help you, they are businesses that need to keep expenditure to an absolute minimum. 

I will continue to carry a (heavy) spare for peace of mind !!!!


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## Gary1944

eurajohn said:


> Something else to think of as well, is if you need to use the steel wheel you will need the appropriate bolts as they are different to the alloy wheel ones.


A very good point Eurajohn, but what about all the cars with alloy wheels and steel spares. I have had a number of cars with alloy wheels, but none had an alloy spare, nor did they have alternative wheel bolts/nuts. I wonder what would happen if one of these spares were to develop a fault. Makes you wonder who is right, or have I missed something?

Gary.


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## gaspode

Mrplodd said:


> Now MY view of that statement would be......


And I always thought that I was an old cynic. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## lalala

trevd01 said:


> lalala said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> trevd01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ideas:
> 
> Ask the company you bought the steel wheel from
> Check with the main dealer / importer for your MH
> Check with the manufacturer of your MH
> Check with the wheel manufacturer of your alloys. Mine came with a TUV certificate giving details of who made them
> Go to a main dealer for you MH base chassis, show them one of your alloy wheel bolts, and ask them to compare with the standard steel wheel bolts for your truck
> Or the easiest? Buy five brand new steel wheel bolts from above truck dealer. Wont cost you much...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Trevor,
> my husband has just been into the company from which we bought the new spare, apparently it uses the same bolts as the alloys.
> As a precaution against further theft we have had a security bolt welded onto the tyre underslung cradle, this will need to be undone before access could be gained. Not a total solution against theft but it woud make it more difficult.
> Lala
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Grizzly

peedee said:


> Who has been providing you with a breakdown service please G. Nice to know who the reliable ones are.
> 
> peedee


Saga peedee. With the Moroccan one we made it to the tyre repair place under our own steam and paid for it ourselves.

G


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## RASSER

Thanks for all the interest in my post.
One of the reasons we have a motorhome is that my wife suffers from really bad migraines and therefore struggles to fly.
My life wouldn't be worth living if we had a serious delay in replacing a bad puncture, so having considering all of your comments I have decided to bite the bullet and buy a new 225/75 Vanco camper tyre to fit on the steel rim I already carry. The bolts are the same as the alloys. It will take up most of the floor space in my garage but not a problem as the boxes etc can go over the top on a large piece of cardboard that spans the edges.
At £150 fitted it is worth it and I can now relax. I may even take the useless sissor jack out as I will never use it.
No reply from Comfort yet, but will keep you posted.
Cheers Bob


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## Techno100

Note to self

Smug git :lol:


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## RASSER

Nice photo Andy hope its locked on in Leeds :lol: 
Finally, I checked the pressures in my Vanco 225/75/16 which had been set by the Fiat dealer last week at 80psi as per the Fiat handbook. Just phoned Continental (0121 382 4814) who confirmed based on my max axle weights of 2300/2400 should be max 61psi front and 76 psi rear. 
Tyres now sorted, lets hope its all worth it in France next week  
Bob


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## eurajohn

Gary1944 as some others have mentioned not all alloys utilise a different bolt to the steels. 
However I think from the point you are making the alloys would have been a factory fitted standard fitment and the steel wheel would have been compatible with the rest of the equipment on the car from new, not an aftermarket accessory, possibly not the same as the rim that would have been supplied if the car had been fitted with steel rims. 

However I was simply trying to help out by raising attention to the possibility that different bolts would be required, thereby alleviating the drama when trying to use the spare only to find the bolts were too long.
Of course you could be referring to a vehicle with studs and nuts and the whilst the correct fitment nuts would not be the same at least you would be able to utilise them until permanent repair was made.


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## Techno100

Yes it's locked :lol: Tyre pressures similar to mine, I'm on 75 rear 65 front


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## raynipper

Oh gosh Andy, just another reason I don't want to come back to Blighty.

Ray.


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## Techno100

No one would suspect a van like this had a spare :lol: How many have searched aimlessly for a solution :wink: 

If they really want it they'll have it.


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## peedee

eurajohn said:


> Whilst I agree that the tyre idea is OK in UK and perhaps a lot of the more densely populated areas of Europe, I'd not want to rely on it for some of the "out of the way" places we get to in France, Spain or Portugal.
> I think you could have a very long wait for any sort of assistance let alone a mobile tyre fitter.


Eurojohn, I have broken down in an out of the way place in Spain before the days when mobile phones were common and I have been provided with a spare by a hole in the wall garage and have been back on the road within two hours.

Mr Plod, as I posted earlier Red Pennant state in writing if you do not have a spare you will be charged an excess of £100. Green Flag likewise have it in writing but do not tell you what you will be charged. No doubt I will find out one day. 

peedee


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## eurajohn

Lets hope then that others with no spare will be as fortunate as you then.


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## peedee

The way I see, it is trying to balance costs, payload and space to carry a spare with risk. My experience has been the risk is very low.

Payload is not a problem but my costs are higher than breakdown insurance charges and worst of all I have no easy means of carrying a spare. I am prepared to accept the risk but like everything sods law will no doubt prevail.

I wonder if there is a statistic for punctures per mile and how many miles I have used up?  

peedee


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## 113016

Personally, i wouldn't go out of the drive, without a spare, but that is just me, my preferred choice, works for me. belt and braces :lol: 
One point about not carrying a spare. I suspect, that if a tyre company needs to source a tyre for you, your tyre choice may be restricted, and you may not be able to quickly obtain a camping tyre.
Out of the way places on mainland Europe, holidays, and night time, come to mind.


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## Detourer

Client on a very recent Moroccan tour missed the departure meet/time [caught us up later] due to tire "problems" in France that delayed them for 2 days AND cost over a fortune!

Wrecked tire on French motorway, assistance arrived but left as no spare available, low loader arrived and took them to depot ……….. total cost 935 euro [I saw the receipts]. Tire depot was closed due to being Saturday……they sat outside till Monday morning.

It took best part of Monday to source TWO replacements and a rim as client decided to now go fully equipped …….. cost near 600euro I am told………

By chance another client has very simalar experience in March but they are a MHF member so will leave that to them for possible post.

Expensive lesson………………..

Ray

PS. Sent from a very hot Marrakech…………..


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## carol

Techno100 said:


> Yes it's locked :lol: Tyre pressures similar to mine, I'm on 75 rear 65 front


Are they new figures from tyre manufacturer Andy, as they are higher than was specified by the tyres we had had fitted and sent them axle weights.

Carol


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## Techno100

My rear axle is a lot heavier than yours was :wink:
Extra solar 
375ah of batteries/inverter
bike rack
etc


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## RASSER

Just finished building a shelf in my garage built of light timber frame and perspex top.
The spare tyre with chairs on top (suitably padded) sit on the garage floor and plastic boxes on the shelf above. All dry and protected by the alarm.
The statistics for punctures may be low, but the Titanic only sank once!!!!! 
Hope its warm in Bordeaux next week.
Bob


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## Telbell

"The statistics for punctures may be low, but the Titanic only sank once!!!!! "

I trust that it is unlikely that 1500 people will die if you have a puncture in your Motorhome- hardly a valid analogy :wink: 

And do we know yet if MHF Insurer will categorically cover puncture with no spare wheel??


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## GEMMY

I bought a new Mercedes wheel a month or so back, this thread reminded me to get a tyre, :roll: 
Today I bought a tyre for the wheel, new but not a 'super' brand but good enough for it's purpose

£140 all in, for new wheel and new tyre.

tony


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## Mrplodd

If ANYONE has any doubts I would suggest reading "Detourers's" post on the previous page in respect of possible recovery costs !!

Especially the bit about being charged a fortune (NINE HUNDRED AND THIRTY Euro's   ) to be taken off a French motorway (eventually)  

Problem doesnt arise if you have a spare. 

I would not dream of buying a "Camping" tyre as a spare (or for my MH for that matter) The "White van man" type has EXACTLY the same speed and load rating as the "Camping" type, costs considerably LESS and is easily obtained anywhere that "White van man" goes, and thats pretty much anywhere:roll: Think how many posts there have been on here concerning the non availability of "CP" tyres in the UK !!

I am aware of the "Camping tyres have stronger sidewalls, and they dont flat spot" arguement. But I have not ever heard of ANYONE getting flat spotted tyres on a MH have you?? if not ask yourself why not :wink:


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## gaspode

I've been following this thread with interest as it could affect me in the future - and it could well affect you too although you probably haven't thought about it - yet. :? 

What amazes me (and annoys me a bit) is the constant stating of the blindingly obvious - that it's best to carry a spare at all times if possible. The O/P wanted to know if breakdown insurance would cover him if he only carried the official manufacturers puncture kit instead of a spare wheel, he didn't ask for a treatise on how much better a spare wheel is that a repair outfit, I doubt if anyone in their right mind could put forward a reasoned argument against that. :roll: 

So to those who "wouldn't drive it without a spare" I'd like to know how they'd get around a driving licence restriction that limits them to less than 3500kg MPLM whilst still having the payload to make a trip of several weeks with a modern "averagel" sized M/H?

The MPLM of new M/Hs has been steadily increasing in recent years to the point where unless you're a PVC enthusiast (NOT of the whip and mask variety I hasten to add 8) ) it's getting difficult to buy a medium sized coachbuilt or "A" class van that has a MPLM of less than 3500kg AND an acceptable payload. Anyone with a licence restriction, whether because of age or medical condition is becoming much more restricted in their choice of van.
This means that payload for these drivers is very important and a spare wheel (average weight 25kg) becomes a luxury. Think how many essentials you'd have to leave out to make room for a 25kg spare that you might use on average once every blue moon?

Manufacturers (particularly continental ones it seems) are making efforts to use lighter materials, construction techniques and chassis etc, to help drivers with weight restrictions (and of course to maintain their sales figures) and not carrying a spare could be seen as part of this (the fact that it cuts costs has of course no bearing on the matter :wink.
So before condemning out of hand anyone who considers leaving the spare at home, think about those who have to choose between that and losing 25kg elsewhere - and please don't suggest asking SWMBO to go back to Weightwatchers, I'm only just recovering from last time I suggested that one. :roll: 

We should all be pressing our breakdown insurers to remove conditions from their policies that require a spare to be carried, not telling everyone that puncture repair kits are useless, we all suspect that anyway and it's a state of affairs that is on the increase whether we like it or not.


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## eurajohn

gaspode, all of your comments are of course true and to the point.

I don't think anyone has "condemned" anyone out of hand that travels without a useable spare; we (the spare carriers) have simply put their point of view across, adding that they choose to travel with built in security that the spare gives.

There have been a few that point out insurance companies are in business to make money and offering to recover a large vehicle from the middle of no-where is going to cost a large amount of money so they are unlikely to offer the service free of charge when the cost could be significantly reduced by simply getting you on your way quickly by changing the beyond simple repair tyre / wheel for a serviceable spare.

Do MHF sell continental breakdown insurance to members ? if so why does one of them not ask the question of them.


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## raynipper

This payload of motorhomes has been a delicate issue for as far back as I can recall.
In the 80s I seem to remember complaints of overweight vans and RVs with absolutely no valid payload at all. Many RVs cut down the fluids capacities in an effort to gain some usable payload.

As you say manufacturers are endeavouring to lighten the overall build but we are requiring more and more luxuries to be added. It's a trade off. 
Gas bottles, batteries, solar panels, toilet capacity, etc. etc. All add up. Plus all those spares and tools we lug about just in case we break down.

What is the answer.??

Ray.


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## rayc

raynipper said:


> This payload of motorhomes has been a delicate issue for as far back as I can recall.
> In the 80s I seem to remember complaints of overweight vans and RVs with absolutely no valid payload at all. Many RVs cut down the fluids capacities in an effort to gain some usable payload.
> 
> As you say manufacturers are endeavouring to lighten the overall build but we are requiring more and more luxuries to be added. It's a trade off.
> Gas bottles, batteries, solar panels, toilet capacity, etc. etc. All add up. Plus all those spares and tools we lug about just in case we break down.
> 
> What is the answer.??
> 
> Ray.


One answer may be to increase the MGW allowed for a 'car' licence to 4250kg with a no tow option. At the moment group B licence holders can legally tow a 750kg trailer with a 3500kg motorhome giving a train weight of 4250kg so I do not see any safety implications?

I wonder if all those drivers you see towing a car behind them have the correct licence. I doubt many MH's + car have a train weight of a maximum of 3500kg as allowed by the B licence if the car is over 750kg MGW.


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## raynipper

Sadly Ray thats not going to happen. We are being led by Europe, not leading........ 8O 

Ray.


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## Grizzly

Mrplodd said:


> Especially the bit about being charged a fortune (NINE HUNDRED AND THIRTY Euro's   ) to be taken off a French motorway (eventually)
> 
> :


My understanding is that , if you break down, then you are automatically removed from the motorway as repairs are not done on a motorway for safety reasons. Part of the guarantee that your insurance company gives you is that they will meet the cost of this removal.

When you get to the garage that you are towed to then, apart from important time and convenience issues to you, there is no difference as far as the garage is concerned, as to whether they repair your existing tyre, replace with your spare, if you have one, or replace with a new tyre that has to be bought in.

Since you bought the van, legally and with the blessing of the convertors, dealers and anyone else concerned in producing modern vehicles without a spare tyre, then surely your insurance company have no choice but to pay the necessary to see you on your way ? I suspect if anyone took them to court on the issue then they would win.

This does not help the OP at the moment as I am sure he would not want to test this on the roadside. If we had no spare then I would want to make absolutely certain, in writing, that we were covered.

G


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## rayc

raynipper said:


> Sadly Ray thats not going to happen. We are being led by Europe, not leading........ 8O
> 
> Ray.


The French have initiated the reduced test requirements for C1 licence holders who drive for non vocational, i.e. paid, purposes. This may just mean no tacho or other driver related tasks that are not relavent to private vehicles being part of the test, we will have to wait and see.
Perhaps they may relax the medical requirements for non vocational licences as well.


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## rayc

Grizzly said:


> My understanding is that , if you break down, then you are automatically removed from the motorway as repairs are not done on a motorway for safety reasons.
> 
> G


I have seen plenty of vehicles having their tyres changed on the French autotoute hard shoulder. This has been caravans, cars, motor homes and commercial vehicles. The breakdown organisation also attempt to get vehicles going in situ if they can.


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## raynipper

You have confused me here Ray.
Are the weights changing and are the medical requirements also changing?

Ray.


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## rayc

raynipper said:


> You have confused me here Ray.
> Are the weights changing and are the medical requirements also changing?
> 
> Ray.


No the test requirements are changing so that drivers who do not intend using C1 licences, i.e up to 7.5t, for vocational purposes have a less 'stringent' test. Their licences will have a code on them which means they can only drive vehicles of that class privately.

http://www.thencc.org.uk/news_press/news_detail.aspx?newsid=110


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## gaspode

eurajohn said:


> I don't think anyone has "condemned" anyone out of hand that travels without a useable spare;


Maybe "condemned" is a harsh word to use, perhaps "dismissed" would be better? The effect is the same though, anyone intending to rely on the supplied puncture kit who reads this thread could be made to feel foolish for even considering it and are therefore pressurised into taking the traditionally accepted course of carrying a spare and possibly exceeding their payload as a result.


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## peedee

Mrplodd said:


> If ANYONE has any doubts I would suggest reading "Detourers's" post on the previous page in respect of possible recovery costs !!
> 
> Especially the bit about being charged a fortune (NINE HUNDRED AND THIRTY Euro's   ) to be taken off a French motorway (eventually)
> 
> Problem doesnt arise if you have a spare.


Whilst the problem cannot be avoided if you don't have a spare, adequate insurance will ensure all but the cost of the spares is covered including any delays you may encounter.

The solution is therefore to make sure you have adequate insurance for the trip you are making and to understand any limitations that maybe imposed by it and perhaps accept some risks yourself. As a retired person delays are of little concern to me.

peedee


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## Webby1

*Carrying a spare*

Thank you Gaspode for a measured post.........sometimes there are too many sweeping statements that do not help the newcomer (I remember it well)

Surely it's all about measuring day to day risk (and cost)..........chances of a puncture,inconvenience of a delay etc. We do it all the time ....will I stay at this site, will I wild camp here,will I buy the most expensive tyres money can buy, or weigh up the risk of slightly cheaper (Oh have I started it all off again)

My understanding from Comfort is that if your van is manufactured without a spare then you don't need to have one for recovery. However, I am thinking about just carrying a tyre as a compromise......but need to have our weight uprated first.

Was it a recent VOSA survey showing some 80% of vans stopped were overloaded.Far more dangerous,illegal and would probably invalidate insurance in an accident.

But are you more likely to be stopped by the police or to have a puncture ???


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## peedee

Just been to the weighbridge this afternoon fully loaded with everything needed for a holiday including full fuel tank, 200 litres of water, and bike and spare tyre on the back. I still had 700 Kgms of payload left and ample to spare on the rear axle. Looks like I could easily add a wheel rim to the load without any weight problems. Just need to come up with a secure way of fixing it to the rear.

peedee


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## Webby1

*Carrying a spare wheel*

What wouldn't I give for 700kg payload in total never mind spare.

Our first weigh-in last month came in at 3560kg (with my other half,bikes and about half full fuel and water) She pointed out that meant that *I *would actually not be able to go on any more trips unless we replated to 3850 ????

Got that set up with SVTECH later this week and luckily a relatively straightforward exercise at almost £300 but I am beginning to think that the average motorhome with 2 people and 2 bikes is very likely to be overloaded.

Maybe then we can carry a spare tyre.....which I am doing anyway...lol

As an aside has anyone tried to do this replating exercise themselves - no disrespect to the company......if they had to weigh the van,check the tyres, stress test various components etc.......but if it's just filling in the correct forms with appropriate figures and submitting to VOSA then it sounds like a real moneyspinner. Anyone got any more info........I will do some more research and report back.


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## peedee

*Re: Carrying a spare wheel*



Webby1 said:


> What wouldn't I give for 700kg payload in total never mind spare.


Ample payload was the one thing I made sure of when I bought my second motorhome! I always had to compromise with load on my first one and it was always a pain and so easy to overload.

If I had to single out one thing my converters got wrong in the build, it was not fitting a spare wheel. I could have taken them to task over it but chose not to. It took long enough to get what I have. 

peedee


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