# cold batteries



## dbh1961 (Apr 13, 2007)

Can anyone help me, regarding batteries in winter?

We go away, without hook-up, for 10-11 days every Christmas / New Year, and we usually end up having to run the engine (or a genny) to recharge the leisure batteries, but I'd like to avoid this.

I have 370Ah of batteries on board, so I don't really want to add more batteries. They are fed by 2x55W solar panels, but obviously not a lot of sun. I'd say we were very light users, as we hardly use the TV, and we're not sat in it on an evening.

Over the years, we've beefed up the batteries and the solar, but it's not enough. I realise a wind generator would out perform solar in winter, but I don't want to spend even more money there.

My theory (!) is that keeping the batteries warmer would make a difference, but I'm not sure how much difference, and I don't know how to go about proving / disproving my theory.

So, eventually, to the questions:

1) Can anyone give me a rough figure for battery deterioration at say freezing point. Is it 10%, 20%, 50% ???

2) Are there any tried and tested ways of insulating batteries? Mine are (effectively) in an outside box. It's an Autotrail with a box under a false floor in a bed box, and it is ccccold in there. I wondered about filling the gaps with expanding foam.


----------



## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi 

Extract from an RV guide to batteries.. 

Battery capacity (how many amp-hours it can hold) is reduced as temperature goes down, and increased as temperature goes up. This is why your car battery dies on a cold winter morning, even though it worked fine the previous afternoon. At freezing, the battery's capacity is reduced by 20%. At approximately -22 degrees F (-27 C), battery AH capacity drops to 50%. Capacity is increased at higher temperatures - at 122 degrees F, battery capacity would be about 12% higher. Even though battery capacity at high temperatures is higher, battery life is shortened. Battery capacity is reduced by 50% at -22 degrees F - but battery LIFE increases by about 60%. Battery life is reduced at higher temperatures - for every 15 degrees F over 77, battery life is cut in half. 


Hope that is helpful .. 

Jim


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi

On very cold days you could drop a filled hot water bottle in there ..... ( no I am not joking :wink: )

or a longer term solution ... tap into the blown air system and divert a little warm air into the battery box.


mike


----------



## 101405 (Oct 15, 2006)

*cold batts*

Pack them with polytstyrene. if possible sit them on a thin layer and pack the sides ,you can tape it on .


----------



## maddie (Jan 4, 2006)

Hi I agree with Silvasurffer,but quote-I have 370Ah of batteries on board - is your charger fully charging these? it will need a big charger I think
terry


----------



## dbh1961 (Apr 13, 2007)

maddie said:


> Hi I agree with Silvasurffer,but quote-I have 370Ah of batteries on board - is your charger fully charging these? it will need a big charger I think
> terry


It's only once a year we have this problem.

We don't use hook-ups, so the mains charger isn't a factor. Only time it gets used, is if we run it from genny, but then it's just a few hours at a time. It manages to put some charge in, but we never expect to fully charge the batteries that way.

The batteries are always 100% at the start of the meets, thanks to solar plus alternator.

Polystyrene sounds worth a try - the price suits my tight Yorkshire pocket!


----------



## 105062 (Jun 10, 2007)

I Noticed that our last 2 Vauxhalls have insulating jackets on the battery, the garage said they were to keep them warm in winter...I thought they were joking...but obviously not.  .. I wonder if you can get them for the larger size battery ?


----------



## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

dbh1961 said:


> We don't use hook-ups, so the mains charger isn't a factor. Only time it gets used, is if we run it from genny, but then it's just a few hours at a time. It manages to put some charge in, but we never expect to fully charge the batteries that way.
> 
> The batteries are always 100% at the start of the meets, thanks to solar plus alternator.


The alternator can never fully charge your batteries and at this time of year 110 watt of solar is unlikely to do so either.. so I doubt very much if your batteries are ever fully charged.

I agree with maddie and suggest you buy a decent multi stage charger such as a Sterling or Ctek, rated to suit your battery bank, running the genny for a few hours each day should be more than adequate to keep them fully charged, of course this may be at odds with your pocket .. :lol:


----------



## maddie (Jan 4, 2006)

Hi dbh1961,I am no leccy, and from my limited brain, if your batterys are not fully charged they will not last as long pulling each other down.I have a 20 amp charger and it's my understanding that it will just about cope with 200 amps of battery ie 20 x 10 =200 any more would require a bigger charger or charge for a lot longer period.I don't think your solar pan is big enought to cope,more maintian.I only have 1x 135amphr l/batt and last 3/4 days easy with blown air heating &some tv.The more you can get in them the longer they will last especially now you are keeping them warm :wink: I would check all batts individually just in case. I am sure sombody with more brain power than me will give more knolageable advise shortly but you have to take them ot to wrap them so it will be worth-while checking 
terry


----------



## maddie (Jan 4, 2006)

Hi again ScotJimland said what I was trying to say but a lot clearer and quicker typing :lol: :lol: 
terry


----------



## dbh1961 (Apr 13, 2007)

Thanks all - that's given me a few pointers:

I'm definitely going to add the polystyrene insulation. I should be able to get some below the batteries, as well as around and between them.

I hadn't realised that they weren't getting a full charge, but I do agree that it may well be the case.

I don't think I'll bother with the bigger/better charger, given that I only have the problem once a year. In any case, no charger will ever charge my batteries fully, because we don't use hook-ups.

What I propose to do, is take all the batteries off, and charge them individually, in the garage, before we go. I can then "lag" each one, before putting them back.

Also, I have the option of running with all 4 linked, or using them as 2 sets of 2, and swapping mid way.

We managed about a week last year, then had to start running the genny (or the engine) for a few hours. I think that this year's plan might extend the week to the required 11 days. 

Many thanks for the quick responses.


----------



## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

dbh1961 said:


> I don't think I'll bother with the bigger/better charger, given that I only have the problem once a year. In any case, no charger will ever charge my batteries fully, because we don't use hook-ups.


Paradoxically this is exactly the reason to get a bigger/better charger. On hook up you don't need a big charger but off ehu and using the genny AND a bigger charger you would always be able to fully charge.

This is exactly what I did, I fitted a Victron 70 amp charger/ 1600 watt inverter and using a Honda genny I can charge up in a couple of hours..

I'm not suggesting you need a Victron but a 40 amp Sterling would be worth while.. :wink:


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi dbh1961 


If you do lag the individual batteries you may make the problem worse ... the batteries get cold because they lose heat not because they "gain" cold. 

If there is no provision for the batteries to be warmed from the heat in the van then when they have got cold ( overnight or in a cold snap) they will not warm up much during the day.... unless maybe if they are charged or discharged when I think they may gain a little heat as a by product of the reaction.

IMHO lagging the battery box on all the sides and base but not on the van side ( top?) or is what you need to do. There does need to be provision for air to "flow" around the batteries ....That way they will be protected from the outside cold but be able to absorb some heat from the van.

Mike


----------



## dbh1961 (Apr 13, 2007)

Keep it coming - I'm taking all this on board.


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

spykal said:
 

> unless maybe if they are charged or discharged when I think they may gain a little heat as a by product of the reaction.


When I wrote that I was racking my brain trying to remember whether or which process was endothermic or exothermic.... I have looked it up now and the answer is :-

The batteries will warm up when charged , the process is exothermic and cool when discharged, this is endothermic ... by how much will take more reading but it is enough to know that if you wrap them up tightly in insulation and then start to use them (discharge) I think they will get colder ... I am still not sure by how much ... and I would be happy if someone else would confirm this ( or shoot me down) :wink:

mike


----------



## maddie (Jan 4, 2006)

Hi I personaly think they get warm both when charging (deffo)and dischaging but what do I know?
terry


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

maddie said:


> Hi I personaly think they get warm both when charging (deffo)and dischaging but what do I know?
> terry


Hi Maddie

Yes that's what I sort of thought too but as I was not sure I looked it up via Google...and now I am still wondering. There are some really good technical articles written on the subject too.... why is it that the simple lead-acid battery causes so much confusion ...it has been around so long now that all the answers must be known ( to somebody :lol: )

But I am pretty sure that the batteries will benefit from being able to get some heat from the habitation area so totally encasing them in insulation may hinder not help.

mike


----------



## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi!



spykal said:


> The batteries will warm up when charged , the process is exothermic and cool when discharged, this is endothermic ...


This is true if you only look at the chemical reactions. However there is a much more significant source of heat, and that is simply the electric current flowing through the battery, against the battery's internal resistance, both during charging and discharging. So, both charging and discharging will warm up the battery.

@ dbh1961:

370 Ah is quite a bit of juice. And if a battery is not at least sometimes charged up to 100% with a decent charger, it will quite rapidly decay and loose capacity. As I have doubts that your combination of alternator and solar panel ever manages to get this big battery really full, I reckon that your battery already has taken some damage.

The "10%-rule", according to which the charger should have a current of at least as much amps as 10% of the battery capacity, expressed in Ah, is only supposed to have the battery fully charged in a decent period of time, e.g. over night on hookup. Weaker chargers will do a job just as good, they just need more time for it.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Boff said:


> . So, both charging and discharging will warm up the battery.


Thanks Boff...

So now all we need to know is it a significant amount of heat and should serious consideration be given to keeping the battery warm to improve its performance?

I know that in a cold battery the voltage will be higher at a full charge and the capacity will be reduced...and that the higher voltage seems to be an additional reason why the altenator cannot acheive a satisfactory level of charge in a cold battery.

I still think it would pay to divert some warmth to the battery box if at all possible. ( as I suggested before ..maybe tap a small pipe into the blown air heating...it would not need much heat to acheive the desired effect)

mike


----------



## Minerva (May 22, 2006)

Word of warning - 

If warm air is to be diverted to the battery box/area to warm the battery, the battery box must vent to the outside of the vehicle, otherwise dangerous/explosive fumes may be vented into the living areas of the van.

Bill


----------



## dbh1961 (Apr 13, 2007)

So glad I asked - I'm learning by the hour.

Insulating underneath and sides, but not top seems right - there will be some heat during the day.

Tapping into blown air is a non starter, as we don't use the blown air. We chose a motorhome with a fire, because we don't like blown air. We can leave the bed box door open during the day, to let a bit of heat in.

Still unsure about the mains charger. I think the answer, for us, will be to plug it in at home sometimes. The standard charger should get the batteries to 100%, over the Sun-Fri park up. Fortunately, we only added the extra battery power in September this year, so I think (hope) that we've not killed the batteries already.

I haven't totally dismissed the idea of a bigger charger though. In the meantime, if I treat the batteries as 2 pairs of 2 (rather than 1 set of four) then they come within the range of my standard on board charger, and I just need to remember to switch over midweek.


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Minerva said:


> Word of warning -
> 
> If warm air is to be diverted to the battery box/area to warm the battery, the battery box must vent to the outside of the vehicle, otherwise dangerous/explosive fumes may be vented into the living areas of the van.
> 
> Bill


Agreed Bill , but no battery that is accessible from the inside of the habitation area should be used without vent pipes being fitted to the battery ( in the first place :wink: ).

In the van we are discussing : _"It's an Autotrail with a box under a false floor in a bed box"_ So I would hope they are suitably vented directly to a tube that goes outside the van.... but a good point to have covered :wink:

Mike


----------



## Boff (May 10, 2005)

spykal said:


> So now all we need to know is it a significant amount of heat and should serious consideration be given to keeping the battery warm to improve its performance?


The amount of heat needed to keep the battery warm is determined only by the heat loss towards the cold environment, and this is controlled by the insulation. Regarding insulation, this should not be exaggerated, otherwise the battery might take damage from becoming too hot!

I have no problems here because in my van the battery sits in the (heated) double floor.

Also the benefit from keeping the battery warm should not be overestimated. And in this case here, I am quite sure that whatever you do to improve battery performance, during winter with the high demand from the heating even the 370 Ah battery will *never* make it over 11 days. And as solar panels are not that effective in winter, I do not see any alternative to hookup or a genny.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

dbh1961 said:


> We chose a motorhome with a fire, because we don't like blown air.


Hi Boff & dbh1961

It looks like we can discount the heating as a consumer of onboard electricity... they have a gas fire and do not use blown air.. so the batteries are just for lighting and the water pump. I can see the batteries lasting Ok ...especially if they are attending a rally, are not sat in the van all day and are "partying" till late every evening :wink: ( I am getting envious)

As dbh1961 says _"as we hardly use the TV, and we're not sat in it on an evening. "_

Mike


----------



## dbh1961 (Apr 13, 2007)

Boff said:


> during winter with the high demand from the heating even the 370 Ah battery will *never* make it over 11 days.
> Gerhard


That's why we switched to a MH with a fire. Not using the blown air makes a big difference to battery life.

We lasted about a week, last December, with 200Ah, and no battery insulation. I'm hoping to get 11 days out of my 370Ah, with insulation, and with a good charge beforehand, and letting heat into the bed box.

I suppose I'm over complicating all this really. If 200Ah = 7 days, then all I have to do, is keep the other 170Ah to one side, and that should cover days 8-11.

So along with the other ideas, I'm definitely going to take out the link between batteries 2 and 3, to give me (2x100) + (2x85) as 2 separate banks. I've thought I should do that anyway, as they're not all identical batteries.


----------



## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

One way of getting a battery to work better is to warm it up hence in cold countries you often see full headlights switched on for a few minutes before a start is attempted. Enough to get them warm not enough to flatten them. 

In Norway on army exercises we always used to remove lead acid helicopter batteries and take them into tents, igloos etc (some people will tell you - into their sleeping bags!) to warm them up before the first start of the morning.


----------



## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

sallytrafic said:


> In Norway on army exercises we always used to remove lead acid helicopter batteries and take them into tents, igloos etc (some people will tell you - into their sleeping bags!) to warm them up before the first start of the morning.


I can think of safer things to share a sleeping bag with 8O

and a lot more fun.. :wink:


----------



## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

The main poblem that hasn't been mentioned is the awful way these batteries are being treated taken below 50% charge as a routine. Can I suggest you start again from the calculations explained in here >MHF guide<

also download the spreadsheet that you will find there on the main solar page


----------



## dbh1961 (Apr 13, 2007)

sallytrafic said:


> The main poblem that hasn't been mentioned is the awful way these batteries are being treated taken below 50% charge as a routine. Can I suggest you start again from the calculations explained in here >MHF guide<
> 
> also download the spreadsheet that you will find there on the main solar page


Thanks for youir input Frank.

I'm not sure I'll ever get to a theoretical utopia - just trying to get somewhere near really.

Most of the year, my batteries never read below 12.7 volts. Once a year, I push them a bit further, but I never let them go below 12.5 volts. What I'm aiming to do, is get the 4 batteries to last 11 days, without taking any of them too low.

Last year, with 200Ah, we ran for 7 days, then had to run the genny, as the batteries were at 12.5V. This year, I'm hoping the extra batteries will eliminate the need for the genny. In truth, I want to stop carrying the genny (I can always run the engine if desperate).

I know 11 days is quite a long time in winter, but I really do consider that we are light users, and I think that 370Ah should be plenty.

In terms of abusing the batteries, there might be a case that I need even more solar, and a better kind of mains charger. That said, I have to consider the economics, and it might be cheaper to just buy new batteries every 2-3 years.


----------



## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Until I did the sums I didn't realise that in my old van the TV on standby was my biggest daily load!


----------



## Boff (May 10, 2005)

sallytrafic said:


> One way of getting a battery to work better is to warm it up hence in cold countries you often see full headlights switched on for a few minutes before a start is attempted. Enough to get them warm not enough to flatten them.


This is often heard, but nevertheless nothing but a myth. Fact is:

Batteries are heavy, really heavy. And so they have a huge thermal capacity. So switching on the headlights for a few minutes will only warm up the battery by a tiny amount, while it does waste valuable charge. In any case, much, much more charge is "burnt" in the headlights, than is set free by warming up the battery.

Keeping the battery in a warm place over night is an option. Though I could like ScotJimLand imagine more comfortable items sharing my sleeping bag with. But less dangerous, that I do not know... :wink: :wink:

Best Regards,
Gerhard


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Boff said:


> This is often heard, but nevertheless nothing but a myth. Fact is:


Another lead acid battery thread ....another "electric" discussion.... can there have ever been a more discussed, disputed and dissected subject... OK please do not mention Gassing :lol:

As an aside ...and I have posted this before ( so sorry for the repeat): I have a set up that uses one battery system for my essentials : lights, water pump, blown air, gas ignitions and a separate one for my non essentials : TV, Satellite receiver, laptop. Why you may ask..well we go rallying and to many CLs with no hook ups and my arrangement means that even if we watch too much TV or I spend too long on the laptop we will still have the essentials :wink:

and regarding our winter heating ... we too have a "gas only" heating option, a feature that is sadly missing on many of the latest motorhomes. I do sometimes wonder if the "modern" designers think that all motorhomers only use camp sites with a hook up :twisted:

Mike


----------



## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

spykal said:


> I do sometimes wonder if the "modern" designers think that all motorhomers only use camp sites with a hook up :twisted:
> 
> Mike


Probably, but it's the 'extras' that owners add, TV, Satellite, Laptops, etc etc that cause the problem. :wink:

You can't keep adding power hungry toys without beefing up the power supply.

and I have haven't mentioned either of the G words ! .. :lol:


----------



## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

spykal said:


> Boff said:
> 
> 
> > This is often heard, but nevertheless nothing but a myth. Fact is:
> ...


Most helicopters are set up in the same way with only one battery they have an essential and non essential busbar for dc. Normally the bus bars are 'coupled' ie joined together by a switch, manual or electronic, then when dc supply is low they can be seperated and all the non-essential loads dumped. So for example your pitot heater and fuel pump may be left on but you lose lighting on all but flight instruments


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

ScotJimland said:


> Probably, but it's the 'extras' that owners add, TV, Satellite, Laptops, etc etc that cause the problem. :wink:


 :lol: I know that you were just trying to wind me up :wink: but I am serious about how the design brief for the latest vans must have been arrived at..

I visited the last NEC show searching for my perfect van to buy ( I know the Holy Grail of vans does not exist :roll: ). We had chosen once before at an earlier show and then asked owners for comments....only to find that the heating system used was totally dependant on a high electrical consumption diesel heater and blown air in a van with only one 85 amp/hr battery... so no good for us. Other features that look really good.. such as lots of halogen downlighters that give a fantastic appeal to the internal decor ... but are a no no for the wild or rally camper who is trying to eke out his available power.... so how about fitting one or two flourescents or even LEDs for those get away from it all trips. I could go on and on with power saving suggestions that a design team should be thinking about but as you are probably bored stiff already .... I won't :lol:

mike


----------



## Boff (May 10, 2005)

spykal said:


> and regarding our winter heating ... we too have a "gas only" heating option, a feature that is sadly missing on many of the latest motorhomes. I do sometimes wonder if the "modern" designers think that all motorhomers only use camp sites with a hook up :twisted:


At least for vans built in Germany this is not a designer's "brainwave", but a legal requirement: All gas appliances in a German-built vehicle must be in a state in which they can be operated while driving. With heatings this means that at least the burner must have forced ventilation by some kind of fan.

BTW, this is also the reason why in German vans the hob rings are attached with screws to their base. Although it is not too sensible to run the hob while driving, the law requires it to be possible...

Caravans are a different story, they are not motor vehicles, but trailers.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Boff said:


> All gas appliances in a German-built vehicle must be in a state in which they can be operated while driving. With heatings this means that at least the burner must have forced ventilation by some kind of fan.


Thanks for that ...it explains why I have rarely seen the Truma S series heater fitted into German motorhomes ... they are quite commonly used in British motorhomes.









Also do the regulations in Germany include the gas powered fridge ....while I know that I have managed to drive with mine alight on gas on many occasions, I do know that it is not really advisable as there is no forced ventilation for the gas flame. ( But fortunately if it blows out the safety device shuts off the gas supply and when we stop the igniter clicks away to let us know :wink: )

Mike


----------



## dbh1961 (Apr 13, 2007)

Boff said:


> spykal said:
> 
> 
> > and regarding our winter heating ... we too have a "gas only" heating option, a feature that is sadly missing on many of the latest motorhomes. I do sometimes wonder if the "modern" designers think that all motorhomers only use camp sites with a hook up :twisted:
> ...


I understand why German 'vans have blown air, but that's no reason to not have a fire as well. Over my 11 day break, the fire may well be on 24/7, as background heat. That just isn't possible if all you've got is a boiler and blown air.

We changed from our Hobby 700, for this reason alone, and we wouldn't buy another MH without a fire.

There is a huge growth in ralliers converting to motorhomes, and we don't use hookups. I think heating is the main problem, as lights can always be changed, and I think LEDs will soon become the norm anyway.

Designers do assume that most users go on sites with hookups, but I'd question just what the actual mix of users really is.


----------



## kencocamper (May 1, 2005)

Hi DBH,
I have just fitted 4 x100ah gel batteries (3 days before a forum said gel was no good, good timing.) and yesterday replaced 5 10watt halogen bulbs with LED bulbs, the light is simular to halogen but slightly brighter and uses much less power, I am now considering fitting a 100watt sunseeker solar panel to catch the early morning and evening sun in winter when the flat panels are not working (in Spain that is). We camp in Spain for 3 to 4 months without EHU but I take a small EX 350 Honda genny for emergencies (very light, very economical, very quite, very small and just big enough to run the tv and sat), even in Spain the sun doesnt shine all the time.
ANY IDEA WHO WOULD DO ME A GOOD DEAL ON A SUNSEEKER SOLAR PANEL INCL FITTING, PLUS AN AUTO SAT DISH AND A REVERSING CAMERA
Ken


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

dbh1961 said:


> We changed from our Hobby 700, for this reason alone, and we wouldn't buy another MH without a fire.


Hi dbh1961

We are exactly the same , we would not consider a van without a fire (gas powered convector) ...

But do not give up hope of finding one in the new ranges of vans :wink: recently we have seen the type of van we did fall for ..yes , the one with just the noisy, high electrical demand, diesel or 240v fueled blown air heater ... and the clever bit...the owner had retro fitted a Truma "gas only" fire ( heater as in picture in last post ) into the habitation area ...thus solving our only objection to the van.... so we may be back on track for a purchase. :wink:

mike


----------



## Boff (May 10, 2005)

spykal said:


> Also do the regulations in Germany include the gas powered fridge ....while I know that I have managed to drive with mine alight on gas on many occasions, I do know that it is not really advisable as there is no forced ventilation for the gas flame.


Yes, the regulations include the fridge. However, as in the fridge - other than in most heaters - the air and exhaust flow goes from bottom to top without any kinks, a fan is not required here. It is sufficient if (usually by means of a small metal shield in front of the flame) it is ensured that the flame cannot be blown out while driving.



dbh1961 said:



> I understand why German 'vans have blown air, but that's no reason to not have a fire as well.


What kind of "fire" do you mean exactly? I hope this is not something which takes the air for the burner from inside the vehicle, or, even worse, releases the exhaust gases into the interior. Such a device running in the confined space of your van with not much ventilation could easily turn it into a death trap!

Another reason for having mainly forced ventilation air heatings in German vans: German winters can be significantly colder than British, temperatures below -15 degrees C are not that uncommon. And in such conditions a ducted air heating or a well-designed wet heating system is the only way to avoid damp in some "cold corners".

Best Regards,
Gerhard


----------



## dbh1961 (Apr 13, 2007)

Gerhard

Thanks for the reply - I hadn't even thought about how cold it can get in Germany.

Yes, that is a valid reason for German designers to design theirs as they do. The kind of heater I'm talking about (as fitted in the MH I have now) gives a more localised heat, and it wouldn't be enough in extreme cold. That explains why my Hobby didn't have a "fire".

Whether they will ever design a vehicle specifically for the UK remains to be seen, but it is a growing market. In the groups that we rally with (admittedly only a small sample) there are more people changing caravan to MH, than those replacing a caravan with a caravan, or a MH with another MH. 

For information, the "fire" isn't vented into the habitation area. The inlet, and the burner, and the exhaust, are all sealed, and are effectively outside. The heat is conducted into the interior. These are more or less standard fit on UK caravans.


----------

