# Is anyone happy with their Swifts?



## Nickynoo

Hi , We are about to take the plunge and shell out an awful lot of money on Saturday when we go and pick up our brand new Swift Bolero 600EK . I absolutely love the van and can't wait ,but, After reading posts on this forum I am now expecting the battery to be drained by the reversing camera and the control panel to play up  Neither of which I wish to experience on our first couple of trips away on weekends before Xmas 
I have PM'd Kath at Swift who will get back to us as we wondered whether there was anything the Dealer could do before we pick up I don't mind waiting another week! 
I just need some reassurance from anyone who has a Bolero and has had no problems with it? I we are very happy with the dealer as we are buying from them a second time and find them very good Tyne Valley Motorhomes .
However I would love just to drive the van away after hand over and not need to go back and forth to the dealer until we need our servicing and Habitation check next year. Is that too much to ask???


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## averhamdave

Probably but at least you stand a fair chance of getting Swift to fix it!

My Autotrail has been waiting 5 months now for a load of stress cracks to be fixed.


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## colonel

Hi Nickynoo,

We are also picking up our first motorhome, a Swift Voyager on Friday and I have also been reading the post on here and worrying a bit. Of course I hope we don't have any problems but one thing has become clear, if we don't have problems it will be a miracle.

That doesn't mean it's going to be a disaster. Of course having paid this much money we should get a good product with no faults shouldn't we? Have you ever bought a new house? If not I can tell you the house builders have a huge department called the snagging department and it's there specifically to fix all the problems with your house after you've moved in. The last house I bought was ten times the value of my motorhome and I don't remember making such a fuss with them

Just be pragmatic, hopefully there will be no serious problems and you're buying from a manufacture who seems to understand what customer service is and from a dealer who cares too.

That's more than I got from George Wimpey.

Don't worry too much and enjoy it, just expect to have some niggles. If you are worried about those specific things ask the dealer to check them before you take delivery.

Best of Luck, may see you on the road. 8)


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## philoaks

Hi, we picked up a new Bolero 630EW in September, and no, the battery hasn't been drained by the reversing camera and the control panel hasn't had a fit either.

Yes, there have been a few issues with it, but, they have all been minor things none of which have stopped us using the van. Some I have sorted myself and the remainder will be sorted out in one go when we take the van in to the dealer in a couple of weeks time.

Most of the "faults" have been minor adjustments to door hinges/catches etc. which to be fair to the dealer only came to light after a period of use. 

Previous to this van we bought an Autosleeper Gatcombe which had an horrendous list of faults (many of which were down to the dealer and not Autosleeper) and took months to finally resolve.

So no, I can't promise you that you won't be fault free but the Bolero is a great van and as long as you've got a good dealer any thing that does come to light should be just a molehill and not a mountain!


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## ovalball

I bought my Voyager about 2 months ago and I love it.There has been a couple of issues but they are all sorted,and Kath at Swifts was very helpful.Don't worry and enjoy your new van.


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## Nickynoo

Hi Colonel I know of course your right! I think I am just winding myself up looking at these other posts . Of course there will be niggles this is our third motohome and our most expensive!! I just don't want to have any of our precious leisure time spoilt!
I know we will get a very thorough hand over The Dealer is very good even though they are a very small company so no worries there . I think I might move into it on the driveway for a few days before we go away just to make sure everything is ok :wink: 
Good luck with your Voyager on Friday bet you don't sleep on Thursday!
I am impressed at Swifts prescence on the Forum it is reassuring
Happy Touring 
Nichola


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## RichardnGill

I will be reading this post with interest as we might be about to change our van for a Swift Group van.

I have been reading the posts about Swift since they started posting on here and there service and commitment is a big reason why we have been looking at Swifts for the last few weeks.

We were originally looking at getting an Autotrail but now have some concerns about there back up if it all goes wrong.

Richard...


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## suffolkian

It is possible to have a trouble free Swift. We bought ours (Kon Tiki) in early September with 8 miles on the clock. We took it out fot a trial run the following day and set off for the South of France 10 days later with 140 miles on the clock.

We had a fantastic trip through France and returned home two and a half weeks later. We tried out everything in the motorhome and everything worked as it should. We have now done a little over 3000 miles and have not had the slightest little niggle with it. Not even a judder reversing uphill.

It does what it says on the tin, I hope you're as fortunate as we have been.

Steve and Ian


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## GerryD

This sort of thread does show the danger of the internet and open forums. There are far more happy owners that those with issues, but you wouldn't beleive it if all you did was read the forums.
The fact is that Swift are a very successful manufacturer of caravans and motorhomes and have been in business for over 40 years.
If you are satisfied with the quality of the van then why question your own decision.
Gerry


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## Solwaybuggier

RichardnGill said:


> We were originally looking at getting an Autotrail but now have some concerns about there back up if it all goes wrong.
> 
> Richard...


As said about Swift vans later, many (probably most?) Autotrails are fine -we bought a Cheyenne from Tyne Valley and yes, some problems but nothing so far that's not been fixed. A small(ish) number of vans present major problems and for their unfortunate owners become a nightmare - if you look at user satisfaction surveys (CC etc) I think all makes score 70%+ (and that doesn't take into account that if you're unhappy you're more likely to respond?)


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## Pixelpusher

Well you asked the question and I have to answer Yes and No. I've had my vehicle for 18mths now and I love to use it. It has everything I need.

At the same time though I have been plagued by things not working or breaking since day one. This has caused me inconvenience in getting them fixed because while they are covered by the warranty you/me still have to travel to a dealer -maybe more than once - to get the faults fixed.

My last series of faults were reported directly to Swift back in July because I was frustrated with the continuing problems and I wanted to make them aware. I'm still awaiting the dealer to call me to say all the parts are in so that I can get everything fixed in one go.

I'm still suprised that a number of people feel assured because of Swifts presence on this Forum. I've said it before - words come cheap - getting action from Swift has not been without struggle but they did eventually listen. Their first statement whenever problems arise is to go to your dealer, not them.

In all honesty I wouldn't say Swift are any better or worse than other manufacturers and looking at experiences of others on this forum and elsewhere underlines to me that the general MH industry has problems with quality of design and manufacture.

Would I swap my Swift MH - definitely not. Am I happy with its quality of build - not until things stop breaking.

Colin


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## 110658

Please don’t ask…….if you have not read my Bolero camera & recent Bolero towing, threads you will not know some of the issues I have had. However, to be fair, the control panel has not played up yet & it was my digi box that drained the battery. The fact that the dealer changed the digi box for the wrong one, then refitted a correct one which did not help matters. The battery was gone when I took delivery - never checked by the dealer & they then suggested that latter models had an isolator switch on the supply. They fitted the isolator but upside down so on was off & vice versa…..that cooked the second battery………….

My Bolero has the flip down front screen which has been dispensed with on latter models I understand. If you read my Bolero Camera thread you will see that I was trying (unsuccessfully) to trace the wiring on this because of issues. I got a pretty good handle on the wiring during this extended 'study' & the +12V for the screen is on a supply that switches off when you turn on the ignition - I guess this is for legal reasons on images on screens in front of the driver when moving. Its not so good watching Emmerdale at 60MPH !! Its a simple matter on this layout to put a small switch in-line & mounted on the roof module to be able to isolate the screen. However, on my van the supply is from the cab & thus the screen flattens the vehicle battery not the habitation battery. This may have changed on latter vehicles.

By the way, if anybody is reading this & worrying about DIY'ers on electrical systems & doing my own repairs - I understand !!!! I do have degree in Automotive engineering though which has helped to solve a few of the issues I have had…..its also a degree of common sense more than the dealer had.

Its not all doom & gloom though (not quite) - the basic layout & design is great - that’s why we bought it.

Marco


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## colonel

> the general MH industry has problems with quality of design and manufacture


As does the house building industry pixelpusher, see my earlier post on this thread.

But that's the way things are. We as consumers want more for less money all the time. That means manufacturers have to find ways of reducing costs all the time. This is achieved by sourcing cheaper products, finding quicker and more efficient ways to build so that we, the consumer, can have our product when we want it and not with a 6 month delivery.

It's a pretty impossible task and only achieved with a lack of consistancy. Just when the manufacturer gets supply chain and production running smoothly, then a design change is implemented because the supplier of the Big Widget has changed his design under pressure from competitors who can now produce it cheaper and so it goes on.

We have to be a little pragmatic at least. Having said that, if my Van is not absolutely perfect there is gonna be some big trouble for someone... :wink:


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## tude

*swift*

the problem with a lot of people they dont know how to use gadgets properly ive spoke to 2 people last wkend they said there battery sometimes goes flat they didnt no that when your plugged in on a site that its not charging the cab battery unless you press the cab button on the control panel . and thats not all they didnt no anyway i have a kontiki and have no probs at all with flat battery juddering or anything else people moan about thanks tude


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## Pixelpusher

Colonel...



> We as consumers want more for less money all the time. That means manufacturers have to find ways of reducing costs all the time.


I'll disagree with this statement a little. Its true that a lot of folks don't look beyond the immediate cost of an item but they should. Cost of ownership is equally important. Cost of replacement is another - cheaper items tend not to last as long and need replacing earlier. I'm sure many of us have said that things don't last as long as they used to.

As for manufacturers reducing costs - well there are two aspects of this, one of which is the viscious circle created by folks looking at the immediate costs and wanting more for less. Competition will force manufacturers to lower prices but often at the cost of quality. Also manufacturers will lower manufacturing costs to increase margins and hence profits and dividends. In both cases I don't believe the end user benefits in real terms

We all have budgets which constrain what we can afford to buy but this doesn't mean that the MH we choose within our price range should be subject to fundamentally bad design practises and lack of attention to build quality. I don't expect a Mini to be as luxurious and perhaps as well built as a Rolls Royce but then I do expect it to be fully functional and not fall apart when it leaves the showroom.

Colin


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

Amongst my stock, I have 12 brand new and 11 pre-owned Swift MH's on my forecourt and if I was not happy with the quality and service from Swift, I can assure you they would not be there!

Peter


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## colonel

Colin,

You are certainly entitled to disagree a little, even a lot if you wish. 



> Its true that a lot of folks don't look beyond the immediate cost of an item but they should.


However, what people do and what they should do, are two entirely different things. I don't believe that the more money people spend on something the more discerning they necessarily become.

I suppose I just feel that to get the designs we want and the quality we deserve, costs an awful lot more than we expect to pay today. I'm sure there is another member here who can tell us similar stories about their large Concorde RV costing a good deal more than we may spend, but the example I think is the same.

One thing we definitely do agree on is that the consumer does not benefit either way. :wink:


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## Pixelpusher

Peter.....

Of those 23 units you have are you happy with the quality of the X250 FIAT cab in respect of its reversing characteristics?

Colin


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## Pixelpusher

Colonel....

I agree, paying more doesn't ensure quality but it doesn't take a lot, if anything, to avoid unhappy customers if screws are missing; if beds break because of poor support; if control panels don't work because of poor design but are still shipped;if trim panels come lose;if floor panels fall out;if you can only plug one item at a time into a double socket;if taps leak and more.

All the little obvious problems with my vehicle could have been avoided with just a little more care and attention at no great cost. *Get it right first time* - its cost me and Swift money to put my troubles right.

'Because of a penny etc,ect....the battle was lost'

Colin


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## colonel

Colin,

I really hope I don't have the same list of problems as I'm sure I will not be quite so pragmatic about it all. I suppose I've just become cynical in old age and don't expect as much as I should.

I do hope your Van is now sorted or at least you are able to enjoy it.


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## Mikemoss

I guess so much of what it's now fashionable to call 'the customer experience' depends on how faults get dealt with when they occur.

Slightly off topic, but I've just bought a new Dell PC. It cooked its hard drive after 10 days BUT Dell then sent an engineer out to replace the drive, reinstall Windows/drivers etc and make sure I was happy. Even though I had the nuisance of reinstalling all my applications and files (thank goodness for online backup!), I'm left with a high regard for Dell because of the way they responded to the fault.

Our oil-fired range cooker/boiler meanwhile has been waiting for a part for five weeks, and the supplier and service company don't seem to care less. So I have a very, very low regard for them.

Back on topic - our Swift-group motorhome is still trouble-free and giving us loads of pleasure at 10 years old.


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## Pixelpusher

Mike....

In my opinion how Customer Service reacts to problems is an important part of the experience, but this just like an insurance policy. You have them but never hope to actually need to call upon them.

Fault occurences are statistical in nature meaning some folks get none and others some. In my case I've had too many to mean I'm just unlucky.

Colin


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## Telbell

> Amongst my stock, I have 12 brand new and 11 pre-owned Swift MH's on my forecourt and if I was not happy with the quality and service from Swift, I can assure you they would not be there!


Have you done the "reverse uphill" test on them all Peter- and do you warn your potential customers of "the problem" with the x2/50 which is now admitted by Peugeot and Fiat??

Or do you keep quiet and literally apply the "Caveat Emptor" Principle?

In view of your Interests shown on your profile ("Being honest and supplying a good service.")I assume it's the former....in which case what is the response of your potential customers when you advise them of "the problem""?
Thanks


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## Pixelpusher

I don't believe Caveat Emptor covers latent defects that are known but not notified to the buyer.

Colin


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## duds

I hired three Swift model motorhomes last year at a time I was considering buying a Bolero FB. The concept was fine but the fit and finsih very poor in comparison with other makes I tried. I hired the first from Johns Cross which was a new Sundance and the list of faults on return at end of the hire was long. The second hirer took back the Bolero halfway through my holiday due to faults which spoilt my holiday and I did not buy a Bolero or a Swift but received compensation from the hirer.

As a lawyer I would say know your legal rights and take care on the purchase order/contract for the vehicle before you sign and pay a deposit. Make sure your dealer is financially sound in this worstening credit crisis. I suppose Swift Group is as safe as any British manufacturer in these uncertain times but take great care whetehr buying new or secondhand.


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## Rislar

I must add, i love my swift, i've been in a few motorhome's and the swift had everything i could possibly want, i've heard some things about quality, which i think is unfair! ! The build quality of mine is fantastic and i compared mine with a 50k MH and i couldn't see where the extra 20k was ! ! I would say its like anything, i've had a load of bad and good product's !


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## Pixelpusher

Rislar....

Please accept this comment in the spirit of debate but why do you think comments about quality are unfair?

Is it reasonable to accept a new vehicle that has problems from day two and continues to do so 18mths on? I didn't cause the problems and as I said previously I've had too many to be just unlucky.

Manufacturers seem to have missed the point that you cannot install quality into a product after you've shipped it.

Colin


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## Rislar

Pixelpusher said:


> Rislar....
> 
> Please accept this comment in the spirit of debate but why do you think comments about quality are unfair?
> 
> Is it reasonable to accept a new vehicle that has problems from day two and continues to do so 18mths on? I didn't cause the problems and as I said previously I've had too many to be just unlucky.
> 
> Manufacturers seem to have missed the point that you cannot install quality into a product after you've shipped it.
> 
> Colin


 hi Colin, i accept your problems are bad and i would feel the same way if i was in your position, i was trying to say that the quality of fittings was as good as any i've seen and that i am impressed with mine, there are quite a few problems with swift and it is made worse when aired publicly on these sites but there is a lot of us that dont have problems . As i've said i'm sorry for you but i'm happy with mine warts and all.


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## SwiftGroup

*Reply*

Thank you for your very positive comments. Swift know that being involved with the forums is the right thing to do for our customers and for our business and we shall continue to do this.

We try to deliver a well designed quality product backed up by a solid customer service. We do not always achieve all of this, neither will all of our customers like what we do or how we do it.

Swift business model is to sell through a dealer network and not direct to the public so we will always refer all of you back to your dealer to get warranty work resolved. If we can give information - we do. If we can help out in supporting the dealer and customer relationship - we do.

We have to set out our strategy and the way we are going to treat customers and deal with their enquiries and complaints and this will not suit all of you but hopefully it will appeal to most of our customers.

Regards

Kath


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## rossoandy

*Re: Reply*




SwiftGroup said:


> Thank you for your very positive comments. Swift know that being involved with the forums is the right thing to do for our customers and for our business and we shall continue to do this.
> 
> We try to deliver a well designed quality product backed up by a solid customer service. We do not always achieve all of this, neither will all of our customers like what we do or how we do it.
> 
> Swift business model is to sell through a dealer network and not direct to the public so we will always refer all of you back to your dealer to get warranty work resolved. If we can give information - we do. If we can help out in supporting the dealer and customer relationship - we do.
> 
> We have to set out our strategy and the way we are going to treat customers and deal with their enquiries and complaints and this will not suit all of you but hopefully it will appeal to most of our customers.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Kath


Well said Kathy at Swift!

'You canna please all of the people all of the time' comes to mind.

I have some experience of the issues that Swift Motorhomes have suffered in the past and can say that Swift Products are the equal of most and the better of many out there. The back up is second to none and a dialog is kept going via its dealers about any ongoing issues customers are experiencing with their vans. Although Swift 'build' the vans they do not have a magic wand to fix new problems as they appear but have to investigate them and formulate a 'fix' which sometimes can take a little time to do. Perhaps occasionally mistkes are made but I would say Swift Group do their best to sort them.
Remember,its the dealer that is ultimately responsible for the product HE has sold, so choose your dealer carefully,try and make it a local one if at all possible as you are SURE to have some issues requiring attention regardless of the vans manufacturer..
( I have NO connection with Swift)!


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## 90725

My Swift Sundance is nine years old with a huge mileage, but it has been properly maintained and hums along like a sewing machine. I love it and find the build quality just fine. My only gripe is a wildly inaccurate water tank gauge, but that's very minor. I just use a dipstick.


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## Andysam

Just thought I'd chip in. We used to have an Autocruise in 2003. Things went badly wrong and one of the offers was to change it for a Swift unfortunately the model 530S was discontinued but I was impressed by the quality of the motorhomes. My mother then had a top end Swift caravan in 2004 and I was even more impressed with that. They lived in it for 3 years and it still looks (and is) good. 

Last week we were at Johnscross motorhomes and looked at some models there. I was very, very impressed by the further improvement in quality. So much so we lamented about how good it was to have a motorhome, but a camper suits our lifestyle and needs better (at the mo). 

The vehicle side is a separate issue to build quality. From my impartial view Swift were good and now appear even better.


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## Pixelpusher

> The back up is second to none


Given the number of problems I've had and the protracted amount of time taken to fix them - some still outstanding - I would agree with this statement. 



> Remember,its the dealer that is ultimately responsible for the product HE has sold


No - the dealer is only an agent of the manufacturer. He is not responsible for poor design nor poor build quality. He may be the person you go to get it fixed but he is not responsible for the problems.

Colin


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## carolsrig

*kon tiki*

my brother bought a new kon tiki 57 reg same time as we bought our auto trail, he has had nothing but problems with it, he swore he would never by one again, told him buy the autotrail :lol: :lol:


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## Briarose

Hi we really do love our Swift Bolero FB and find we often get comments on it when away..............we have had a few minor problems which Swift sorted out straight away (glad that we had MHF and Swift on the forum) I honestly think with any MH you are probably going to get minor niggles I know my friend has had a few with her Autotrail.

We took our Bolero today for its engine service to Fiat at Lincoln, and whilst there had a look around some of the MHs outside camper UK and we said at the time 'that there wasn't one we would swop our Bolero for' as it really ticks all the boxes for us. 

We have had the battery drain only once in the year that we have had it, and touch wood no problems with the control panel, we just can't wait to be off in it again, we also find that for us the size is just right for getting places car parks etc etc.

Good luck with yours but I am sure you will be thrilled to bits with it............is it a girl or a boy LOL and whats its name.


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## 88735

Hi

We have had a Bessacarr 760 for 3 years and would buy another Swift Tomorrow if we had the cash.


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## SwiftGroup

*meeting*

How about a user group meeting at Swift where you could discuss design issues,customer service,moans and groans etc I will provide lunch????Peter.


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## Deno

*Re: meeting*



SwiftGroup said:


> How about a user group meeting at Swift where you could discuss design issues,customer service,moans and groans etc I will provide lunch????Peter.


Peter
Please put me down for this opportunity. I really would welcome the opportunity to contribute in a sensible, controlled, level headed and objective manner rather than battling it out on an internet forum.
What about inviting some of your dealer "heads" to attend and lets have a real tri partite discussion in a convivial and constructive way.
This is the way forward
Deno ( Derek Noble)


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## SwiftGroup

*Re: meeting*



Deno said:


> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about a user group meeting at Swift where you could discuss design issues,customer service,moans and groans etc I will provide lunch????Peter.
> 
> 
> 
> Peter
> Please put me down for this opportunity. I really would welcome the opportunity to contribute in a sensible, controlled, level headed manner and objective manner rather than battling it out on an internet forum.
> What about inviting some of your dealer "heads" to attend and lets have a real tri partite discussion in a convivial and constructive way.
> This is the way forward
> Deno ( Derek Noble)
Click to expand...

Thanks Derek,lets see if I can get say 9 more volunteers? Peter.


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## Briarose

*Re: meeting*



SwiftGroup said:


> How about a user group meeting at Swift where you could discuss design issues,customer service,moans and groans etc I will provide lunch????Peter.


 That sounds good esp if you held it in Portugal or Spain :wink:


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## SwiftGroup

*Re: meeting*



Briarose said:


> SwiftGroup said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about a user group meeting at Swift where you could discuss design issues,customer service,moans and groans etc I will provide lunch????Peter.
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds good esp if you held it in Portugal or Spain :wink:
Click to expand...

 I wish!!!


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## Rapide561

*Lunch*

Did someone say lunch?

Russell

Stick us down to boost the numbers if needed.


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## Telbell

Deno

It's only as a result of a number of people as you say "battling it out on internet forums" that Fiat have finally acknowledged a problem. Otherwise no doubt they would still maintain their lies and deceit. This is the strength of the Internet and all power to it for that. 

To some extent it seems they've realised some of their mistakes by coming on this and the O&A Forum. They still won't guarantee that faulty vehicles will be rectified or that Warranties will be extended where relevant. which is what many owners want to hear.

Meanwhile, Swift have acknowledged on here that they are aware of the problem. and yet a number of Dealers and Converters are still selling vehicles which have the potential to cause problems for the owners; this is evident from recent Posters on here. who have said they've bought Fiats/Peugeots but haven't told us what (if?) the dealers are telling them about the judder problem. Hence my initial question, raised in a serious and convivial manner, to Nichola. Neither will the dealers tell us.

If a dealer is willing to boast on a public forum that one of their interests is in "being honest" then they should be prepared to demonstrate that claim on the public forum by stating their "Marketing Stance" as regards selling potential judderers. 

No doubt in the next few years these vehicles will end up on the 2nd hand market, and current or future MHF-ers could be buying a "pig in the poke"

Sorry to have to regurgitate what the "older" members of MHF are fully aware of. If you really want to see evidence of the hard work and "battle" that certain people have had on behalf of X2/5o owners and potential owners in this saga over the past two years or so , then spend a few days/weeks updating yourself on the many threads and hundreds of Posts on this and the Out and About forum.

A "Free Lunch" is nice if you can get it-most people want a promise that their vehicles will be fixed at no cost to them, and that problematic juddering vehicles are not still flooding the market, unknown to their owners.


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## geordie01

hi peter
i could be up for that


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## Pixelpusher

Peter.....

A good idea and one in which I'd like to participate.

Colin


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## Zebedee

Hi Tel

I agree with most everything you say, except the bit about dealers "coming clean" about the potential problems.

I really can't imagine any dealer showing a punter over a lovely X/250 based van, then saying (in effect),

_"Lovely looking van Sir . . . . . . Suits you Sir!! . . . . . I wouldn't buy it if I were you though Sir . . . . it's a load of crap!"_

It simply ain't going to happen, and just as well or there soon won't be any dealers left. (They seem to be falling over fairly regularly anyway.)

I've completely cured the scuttlegate problem on my Peugiat, and I do wish it didn't judder, but in all other ways it's a cracking vehicle and I would buy another tomorrow.

P.S. Have you ordered the headlamp protectors yet? I'll be happy to fit them for you if you really are as naff at "mechanicals" as you say!


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## SwiftGroup

*Swift response*

Hi

Just to let you know that I am collecting names for the forum at Swift.
So far we have 5 names, 4 from this post and 1 PM. When its up to 10 I will let you know.

I will have to keep an eye on it over the weekend!

Regards
Kath


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## Deno

Telbel
Obviously I've hit a nerve and for that I apologise, you're obviously very sensitive about the subject of judder, the fact of which is that the number of complaints in statistical terms is negligable in relation to the number of X250's produced. I am on my second X250 and neither of them have demonstrated any sign of judderr whilst reversing. I have read all the posts and press attention and drawn my own conclusions. 
I do take your point that by "battling it out on the internet" the issue has finally been brought to the public attention of Fiat. However using words such as "lies and deceit" is at best counter productive and at worst inflamatory and does not go anywhere towards sorting out the issue. My concerns with Swift surround Dealer service and not the Fiat X250.
Personally if I have a problem I prefer to sit down with the people concerned face to face and in an objective manner to resolve the problem. You have your way and I have mine.
Peter has given "Swift" owners that opportunity and as a Swift owner I intend to take advantage of that opportunity. 
Jaw Jaw is better than war war!!!
Regards
Deno


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## stewartwebr

Hi Kath/Peter,

I would be delighted to attend if you would have me  Could you advise a date?


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## Telbell

> . I wouldn't buy it if I were you though Sir . . . . it's a load of crap!"


Dave:-well, that's one extreme....and it ain't what I said is it? :wink:

The other extreme ( and in the absence of any info to the contrary, from either dealers or customers, is that they say absolutely nothing. A few weeks ago, as I've said before, they could perhaps have been excused and pretended to to "know nothing". Not now-particularlly as some of them profess to "being honest"

It may not be a criminal offence for a reputable trader to sell a vehicle with known design defects but it's sure not moral or ethical.

Many thanks for offer re protectors- not even got round to sending for them yet but I will have a go myself first and shout if need be.

Thank you


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## Zebedee

Telbell said:


> Dave:-well, that's one extreme....and it ain't what I said is it? :wink:


Agreed Tel, but I don't think there would be any middle ground in a real situation.

If any dealer even hinted at the slightest problem, the punter would be on the edge of his seat in a flash, his eyeballs standing out like chapel hatpegs, and demanding to know every detail.

I know I would!!!



Telbell said:


> Many thanks for offer re protectors- not even got round to sending for them yet but I will have a go myself first and shout if need be.
> Thank you


'tis no problem. Cuppa and a good old natter thrown in as well of course, if you brought the van across to us.


----------



## Telbell

Deno.

I won't get into the debate about no.of vehicles affected/reported being negligible. Fiat are now admitting ALL x2/50's have a design fault-*fact*

There's plenty of evidence on this and the other Forum, based on what Fiat and Dealers in the past have told complainants , to support that they have (a) Deceived owners and (b) not only not told the truth, but have told "fibs" (if you prefer that terminology)....so they've told lies and been deceitful. -*fact*

To ask people to be "objective" when they've suffered knackered clutches and gearboxes, or are suffering from burnng clutches when having to "slip clutch" in forward gear - and, worse, be told in the early days that it's a vehicle characteristic or due to bad driving,is a bit beyond the pale.

Anyway-my spat isn't with you so I'm out of this particular dialogue with you Deno.
:wink:


----------



## Deno

That'll be me told then!!!


----------



## lifestyle

` Calm down.... Calm down....


----------



## AndyStothert

I'm glad someone (Deno) brought up the subject of the statistics of the the juddering issue so could I ask him on what statistical evidence he bases his statement on? 
When he provides th answer to this I will move the response over to the Reversing Judder thread as it will be more relevant there.


----------



## AndyStothert

And I forgot - I want some of these headlamp protectors too - where can I get them without putting more money in Fiat's bank account?


----------



## ICDSUN

AndyStothert said:


> And I forgot - I want some of these headlamp protectors too - where can I get them without putting more money in Fiat's bank account?


Andy

Here you are, these come with the markings etc for Euro beam adjustment

http://www.climairuk.com/climair/home.php?cat=9

Chris


----------



## roger-the-lodger

Kath, if there's still room I'd be very interested in that forum. I'll send you a PM. Roger


----------



## 108010

*Is anyone happy with their Swift*

Ref. the idea of a user group meeting, we would be interested.
Sammie


----------



## roger-the-lodger

My simple answer to the thread's title question is "yes, I am".

I have a Bessacarr E560 which has an equivalent in the "Swift" brand range - the Bolero 680FB. I got it new on 1 Sep and we've done 2700 miles in 3 months all in UK short breaks. It makes its first trip abroad in 8 days time when it goes to the Christmas markets at Valkenburg and Maastricht.

We're new to motorhoming and we're delighted with the van. We had one small problem on delivery which did involve the reversing camera but turned out to be a bad connection on wiring behind the radio (at least that's what we were told) and the dealer did fix it though it took him a couple of attempts and he needed help in the form of me finding hime a wiring diagram - no, he didn't have one, or any, it seemed. And he subcontracts most of his electrical work because he can't get the skills.

We could be lucky and I'm sorry for those who may be less fortunate. People who post with problems are of course real people with real problems and they show that quality is not consistent, but I think I have learned enough now to feel that this is true with most MH converters, most base vehicle types and indeed, as some have pointed out, with other markets (eg houses). I also have a narrowboat - the same is certainly true with those.

Bear in mind too what GerryD rightly says - forum threads like this naturally have many posts describing problems. That's not to say at all that these problems aren't real and the posters are, of course, absolutely right to post strongly and in detail, but sadly and naturally folk who are happy and problem free are less inclined to post so the summary view needs to be seen in that light.

I think it's good that Swift monitor and post on MHF - it really did help me to choose them for my MH.

I still think personally that many problems stem from the dealer model. I don't blame the converters for adopting it - there are good business reasons for that and it can work well, but only if the dealer is both competent and responsive. From what I've learned so far (in about 6 months) if you think there's inconsistency of build quality from converters, then take a look at dealer quality standards and consistency. You might want to fortify yourself first with some strong liquor! :wink: 

The operational effectiveness of the dealer model in the MH market compares very unfavourably with its equivalent in the mainstream car market IMO. Quality is inconsistent there too, but perhaps to a lesser degree; any car dealer for your vehicle will undertake warranty work and there is generally more choice of dealers in most localities.

The inconsistency of what you can expect from a dealer is made worse by the fact that warranty work is, for the most part, only undertaken by the dealer you buy from (another difference from the car market). Combined with the fact that you don't want to take your MH a long way for warranty work if you do have problems, this more or less forces you to buy fairly locally, limits your competitive choice and makes dealer quality a postcode lottery (there's a few of those about!)  

That's complicated too by the double-warranty - vehicle (Fiat dealer, say) and habitation/conversion (Swift dealer, say). In fact it's usually clear who has responsibility, but not always. If wiring has been re-routed or made more complicated by the converter, then who is responsible for fixing your electrical fault, under which warranty?

What I've described is basically the case for all motorhomes; it doesn't apply only to Swift of course. And please don't be put off by it - the benefits far outweigh the risks for most of us, I think.

We love our E560 and we welcome Swift's use of MHF. I'd say - go ahead, get your van and enjoy it! And I'd wish you good luck at the same time! :wink: 

Roger


----------



## RichardnGill

Has anyone recently been of a factory visit? 

and are they any good?


Possably buying a Bessacarr in the near future and just trying to get as much info before we buy.


Richard...


----------



## Nickynoo

Well I really did open a big can of worms here! Thank you all for your replies!
I'm afraid I didn't make it clear that this is our second X/50!
last year we downsized from an 04 puegot based coachbuilt to a panel van ,Trigano Tribute 550, thinking of use as a second vehicle and ease of parking etc. Unfortunatley it was a very expensive mistake hence the new purchase tomorrow! 
We have travelled 6500miles in the van and had one problem with the rear wheel seizing feb 08 due to a delay getting the part Fiat customer sevices were involved and I queried the problems I'd heard about but not experienced with reversing . I was told back in Feburary that Fiat were aware of this problem and to make sure of 1300rpm when reversing
To be fair in all those 6500 miles spent in the Lake District ,Yorkshire ,Scotland and France we have not had any problems and we enjoy the drive of the vehicle . My thread was due to nerves about buying a Swift due to previous posts on this forum!
I will say again that I am vey impressed with Swift customer service.
Maybe I am expecting too much but I believe that if Fiat have already admitted there is a fault then they will in the end have to do something about it . After all did not the previous model have a problem with the 5th gear . Our 04 Peugeot based vehicle had an engine managment failure 6months out of warranty at the cost of £700. My neighbour bought a brand new Mercedes van and it's engine seized within a week! A company we know of bought a fleet of 7 Ford transits and down to poor PDI 5 were off the road in a week! My husband has a Triumph Motorcycle all the 3 cylinder models are prone to water ingress in the centre cylinder. Need I go on! What I am trying to say is that just about everything you buy has some kind of design fault which does not come to light straight away . I would love to have our Swift on a VW engine ,our Golf Estate has done 140000 miles and apart from wear and tear is still going strong ! Unfortunatley the cost of an equivalent Mhome on a VW is beyond our reach! So many times We have said we will give up the vanning and stay at home but wanderlust takes hold We started with a tent and been tuggers I wont describe 2 tyre blow outs in France! Wel ove motorhoming . Maybe you all think we are crazy but it's the one thing we all have in common !
Happy Travelling Everyone 
Nichola


----------



## Solwaybuggier

Best wishes & hope you enjoy your new Swift - and they're nice people at Tyne Valley MH.


----------



## 111728

To the hirer who rented three Swifts- One from Johns Cross (those angels in the South!) when you presented the long list of faults, what was their response? as I was expecting the finger tapping dealer to have replied on here!


----------



## roger-the-lodger

Solwaybuggier said:


> Best wishes & hope you enjoy your new Swift - and they're nice people at Tyne Valley MH.


Sounds from what you have said and from this post that you'll probably do OK in the dealer lottery! I wonder how far Tyne Valley MH are from me! :wink:

Sorry to post stuff you obviously know already - I'm sure you can tell me a thing or two about this business!

Enjoy your new van!

Roger


----------



## PFS600

Put me down for a place, i think i may have some good ideas for Swift.


----------



## Telbell

> To the hirer who rented three Swifts- One from Johns Cross (those angels in the South!) when you presented the long list of faults, what was their response? as I was expecting the finger tapping dealer to have replied on here!


 :lol: :lol:

Only if it's a marketing opportunity :wink:


----------



## duds

I got a more honest reply from the hirer ( not Johns Cross ) who has a large fleet of M/H ( different makes) who said to me after the problems arose on Ace and Bolero that they have continual problems with Swift hire vans in matters of quality and longevity of parts but what can you expect for a van costing under £40k. Buy a German van or base vehcile and you get a quality product made to last but at a price. At least Swift monitor this forum which is great and appear to listen to customers who have actually used the product and let us hope the company responds with improvements in quality control at the factory. Many of the fittings used look weak and plasticky and with more than occasional use break easily.


----------



## Briarose

duds said:


> I got a more honest reply from the hirer ( not Johns Cross ) who has a large fleet of M/H ( different makes) who said to me after the problems arose on Ace and Bolero that they have continual problems with Swift hire vans in matters of quality and longevity of parts but what can you expect for a van costing under £40k. Buy a German van or base vehcile and you get a quality product made to last but at a price. At least Swift monitor this forum which is great and appear to listen to customers who have actually used the product and let us hope the company responds with improvements in quality control at the factory. Many of the fittings used look weak and plasticky and with more than occasional use break easily.


 I think that £40,000 isn't cheap for a motorhome and to be honest after using ours for a year we are still really happy with it, and haven't found it cheap tacky plasticky or weak :roll: our Bolero has been used many times over the year we have had a whole monthi in it in Portugal too.........and can't wait to be in it for that length of time again.


----------



## 111728

Telbell said:


> To the hirer who rented three Swifts- One from Johns Cross (those angels in the South!) when you presented the long list of faults, what was their response? as I was expecting the finger tapping dealer to have replied on here!
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol:
> 
> Only if it's a marketing opportunity :wink:
Click to expand...

I thought I was the only one who recognised that! Fingers down throat very frequently!


----------



## roger-the-lodger

saracen said:


> Telbell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... Only if it's a marketing opportunity :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I was the only one who recognised that! Fingers down throat very frequently!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nothing wrong with taking marketing opportunities as long as you give decent service as well! Do you know that these guys don't give decent service as well? If so, please let's hear about it! Would you prefer dealers not to bother to respond on here at all - like most of them don't bother?
Click to expand...


----------



## roger-the-lodger

Briarose said:


> duds said:
> 
> 
> 
> I got a more honest reply from the hirer ( not Johns Cross ) who has a large fleet of M/H ( different makes) who said to me after the problems arose on Ace and Bolero that they have continual problems with Swift hire vans in matters of quality and longevity of parts but what can you expect for a van costing under £40k. Buy a German van or base vehcile and you get a quality product made to last but at a price. At least Swift monitor this forum which is great and appear to listen to customers who have actually used the product and let us hope the company responds with improvements in quality control at the factory. Many of the fittings used look weak and plasticky and with more than occasional use break easily.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that £40,000 isn't cheap for a motorhome and to be honest after using ours for a year we are still really happy with it, and haven't found it cheap tacky plasticky or weak :roll: our Bolero has been used many times over the year we have had a whole monthi in it in Portugal too.........and can't wait to be in it for that length of time again.
Click to expand...

Before ordering a Swift Group van we did a lot of research on other makes including Hymers, Burstners etc. We concluded that if what we saw was anything to go by, then German quality is a myth. We saw examples of poor design and poor build quality in many areas of these vans but mainly with detail fittings - for example fastenings and catches that would not have withstood the attentions of kids for even a few days, or normal use by careful adults for very much longer than that.

MH build quality leaves quite a lot to be desired across all makes that we saw and we didn't think you benefit much by spending an additional £5K to 10K just to buy a continental brand. Our van isn't perfect but nothing has broken off in 3 months.

Roger


----------



## Rislar

roger-the-lodger said:


> Briarose said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> duds said:
> 
> 
> 
> I got a more honest reply from the hirer ( not Johns Cross ) who has a large fleet of M/H ( different makes) who said to me after the problems arose on Ace and Bolero that they have continual problems with Swift hire vans in matters of quality and longevity of parts but what can you expect for a van costing under £40k. Buy a German van or base vehcile and you get a quality product made to last but at a price. At least Swift monitor this forum which is great and appear to listen to customers who have actually used the product and let us hope the company responds with improvements in quality control at the factory. Many of the fittings used look weak and plasticky and with more than occasional use break easily.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that £40,000 isn't cheap for a motorhome and to be honest after using ours for a year we are still really happy with it, and haven't found it cheap tacky plasticky or weak :roll: our Bolero has been used many times over the year we have had a whole monthi in it in Portugal too.........and can't wait to be in it for that length of time again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Before ordering a Swift Group van we did a lot of research on other makes including Hymers, Burstners etc. We concluded that if what we saw was anything to go by, then German quality is a myth. We saw examples of poor design and poor build quality in many areas of these vans but mainly with detail fittings - for example fastenings and catches that would not have withstood the attentions of kids for even a few days, or normal use by careful adults for very much longer than that.
> 
> MH build quality leaves quite a lot to be desired across all makes that we saw and we didn't think you benefit much by spending an additional £5K to 10K just to buy a continental brand. Our van isn't perfect but nothing has broken off in 3 months.
> 
> Roger
Click to expand...

Well said Roger, i have to agree with you, having seen what was available on the market we went for the Swift as we couldn't see where the extra money was placed!!


----------



## mikeyv

roger-the-lodger said:


> saracen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Telbell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... Only if it's a marketing opportunity :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I was the only one who recognised that! Fingers down throat very frequently!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nothing wrong with taking marketing opportunities as long as you give decent service as well! Do you know that these guys don't give decent service as well? If so, please let's hear about it! Would you prefer dealers not to bother to respond on here at all - like most of them don't bother?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed Roger, I wish Johns Cross weren't so far away from me - from the feedback on here they'd be a far better bet than the clowns I'm currently dealing with. They can't even respond satisfactorily when you're looking them straight in the eye. :evil:
Click to expand...


----------



## Briarose

roger-the-lodger said:


> Briarose said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> duds said:
> 
> 
> 
> I got a more honest reply from the hirer ( not Johns Cross ) who has a large fleet of M/H ( different makes) who said to me after the problems arose on Ace and Bolero that they have continual problems with Swift hire vans in matters of quality and longevity of parts but what can you expect for a van costing under £40k. Buy a German van or base vehcile and you get a quality product made to last but at a price. At least Swift monitor this forum which is great and appear to listen to customers who have actually used the product and let us hope the company responds with improvements in quality control at the factory. Many of the fittings used look weak and plasticky and with more than occasional use break easily.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that £40,000 isn't cheap for a motorhome and to be honest after using ours for a year we are still really happy with it, and haven't found it cheap tacky plasticky or weak :roll: our Bolero has been used many times over the year we have had a whole monthi in it in Portugal too.........and can't wait to be in it for that length of time again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Before ordering a Swift Group van we did a lot of research on other makes including Hymers, Burstners etc. We concluded that if what we saw was anything to go by, then German quality is a myth. We saw examples of poor design and poor build quality in many areas of these vans but mainly with detail fittings - for example fastenings and catches that would not have withstood the attentions of kids for even a few days, or normal use by careful adults for very much longer than that.
> 
> MH build quality leaves quite a lot to be desired across all makes that we saw and we didn't think you benefit much by spending an additional £5K to 10K just to buy a continental brand. Our van isn't perfect but nothing has broken off in 3 months.
> 
> Roger
Click to expand...

 True and although Duds often posts of his experience when hiring a Swfit, I honestly do not think you can base an opinion on a hired vehicle which obv wouldn't have been cared for and treated with respect like a MH owner would. It would be like basing an opinion on a hired cruiser on the Norfolk Broads or a static caravan, none are giong to be in A1 condition with different folk using them all the time.

Just for the record JCM's I haven't bought from them, or used them but I can tell you that anytime I have needed any help or advice on here they have been most helpful via PM etc pity other companys aren't the same :roll: at least like Swift they help any member of MHF as and when they are needed.


----------



## SwiftGroup

duds said:


> I got a more honest reply from the hirer ( not Johns Cross ) who has a large fleet of M/H ( different makes) who said to me after the problems arose on Ace and Bolero that they have continual problems with Swift hire vans in matters of quality and longevity of parts but what can you expect for a van costing under £40k. Buy a German van or base vehcile and you get a quality product made to last but at a price. At least Swift monitor this forum which is great and appear to listen to customers who have actually used the product and let us hope the company responds with improvements in quality control at the factory. Many of the fittings used look weak and plasticky and with more than occasional use break easily.


We did have problems with the early Bolero's and its brothers and sisters which have been well aired on this forum I believe we have addressed all of them now and would hope that this can now be seen? Peter.


----------



## Telbell

It seems incredible to me that it seems we're now happy to base our judgement of good Customer Service on how well the supplier deals with all the faults and issues following delivery; proof if it were needed, that there's something wrong with the industry and the customers' expectations.

Shouldn't we be making the judgement based on the fact that following collection or delivery we don't need to contact the dealer again till the first service??

And this is NOT aimed at amy particular converter/dealer-just a general comment.


----------



## rossoandy

Telbell said:


> It seems incredible to me that it seems we're now happy to base our judgement of good Customer Service on how well the supplier deals with all the faults and issues following delivery; proof if it were needed, that there's something wrong with the industry and the customers' expectations.
> 
> Shouldn't we be making the judgement based on the fact that following collection or delivery we don't need to contact the dealer again till the first service??
> 
> And this is NOT aimed at amy particular converter/dealer-just a general comment.


that is the 'ideal' to aim for certainly, and I sure there are many owners who buy new and do not have any problems worth speaking of.
My opinion is that the individual components that go to make up a motorhome are not generally of sufficently good standard to gtee this outcome. You cannot always lay the blame on the motorhome manufacturers as they 'buy in' the vast majority of the components and there is always a balance between cost and durablity. Indeed many components are just not anywhere near the standard found in your average motor car? Many have that 'made in Hong Kong' feel/look.
If this area was to improve then I sure we would see far less faults on our vans.
And yes I am aware its sometimes just plain carless assembly that causes issues too...
but equally its owners who dont read their manuals or are just plain heavy handed! 8O


----------



## roger-the-lodger

Telbell said:


> It seems incredible to me that it seems we're now happy to base our judgement of good Customer Service on how well the supplier deals with all the faults and issues following delivery; proof if it were needed, that there's something wrong with the industry and the customers' expectations.
> 
> Shouldn't we be making the judgement based on the fact that following collection or delivery we don't need to contact the dealer again till the first service??
> 
> And this is NOT aimed at amy particular converter/dealer-just a general comment.


Telbell, I think you're right in one respect - there is "something wrong with the industry and the customers' expectations". It's that the build quality standards in the industry don't meet the customers' expectations.

However lower than expected build quality is something that I can suspect is the case; I can't be sure as I haven't done any proper measurement either of the expectations or of the build quality.

Also, I think you may be confusing build quality and customer service. Customer service is all about how well you respond to customers when there *are* problems. By responding "well" I mean actually resolving the problem not just being nice or polite. So *yes*, we really should "base our judgement of good Customer Service on how well the supplier deals with all the faults and issues following delivery" because that's absolutely the essence of *customer* service.

Build quality is perhaps better expressed as *product and service *quality (by "service" here I *don't* mean customer service but I do mean product servicing, maintenance, repairs, warranty work, and I do mean provision of services in "service" industries).

There almost certainly is a product and service quality problem in the MH industry, but so there is in, oh where shall I start, the car industry, the consumer electronics industry (Freeview boxes anyone - I've only found 2 that are reasonably reliable), the domestic white goods industry, the computer industry (especially software).....

As for service industry quality, well, financial services anyone? The travel industry, legal services, estate agency......

If you think modern cars are well built do take a look at some forums addressing that. You need to have a strong constitution though and be prepared for stronger language than you find on MHF!  Do make sure you include some forums on those "quality" German makes - Mercedes, BMW, VW/Audi (_vorsprung durch technik _indeed!)

At risk of another long post there are 2 more points. Firstly product and service quality is a matter of design and process. Good design, including design-for-reliability and design-for-maintenance, and well-tested processes are the key factors. Would you believe 3 hours labour to change a front headlamp bulb on a Renault Megane?

Secondly, any industry that uses the dealer business model should do everything it can to ensure service quality at the accredited dealers (for a start, dealers should be *accredited*, not just signed up on targets). With MHs the converter also puts the dealer in the front line of customer service as I have defined it above, because the dealer is doing not only routine tasks (expected or planned servicing and maintenance) but also repairs to fix problems - that especially takes the dealer to the centre of customer service. It's no use converters "passing the buck" to dealers - it's their product and brand reputation that's on the line if the dealer fails to perform. Perhaps this is where we should look for the real problem in the MH industry.

That's the planet we live on I'm afraid; I'm not aware of an alternative. That's not to say I give in to poor quality - my expectations are high too. But I suspect that customer service as I've defined it will always be an important aspect of choosing between competitive suppliers.

Sorry for the long post,

Roger


----------



## roger-the-lodger

rossoandy said:


> ... but equally its owners who dont read their manuals ...


That's assuming the dealer has given you the right ones!  Mine gave me a handover pack for the wrong van. 8O Oh, that was after the 5 minute handover - here are the keys, I'm sure you'll find everything straightforward, best of luck....! Why did I not protest - well, as you get older you do get pretty good at recognising lost causes - and recognising when you know more (lots more) about the product than the guys you've just handed the big debit card sum to.

Roger

PS I had already checked everything myself (well, as it turned out, almost everything!) before passing over the card.


----------



## rossoandy

roger-the-lodger said:


> Telbell said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems incredible to me that it seems we're now happy to base our judgement of good Customer Service on how well the supplier deals with all the faults and issues following delivery; proof if it were needed, that there's something wrong with the industry and the customers' expectations.
> 
> Shouldn't we be making the judgement based on the fact that following collection or delivery we don't need to contact the dealer again till the first service??
> 
> And this is NOT aimed at amy particular converter/dealer-just a general comment.
> 
> 
> 
> Telbell, I think you're right in one respect - there is "something wrong with the industry and the customers' expectations". It's that the build quality standards in the industry don't meet the customers' expectations.
> 
> However lower than expected build quality is something that I can suspect is the case; I can't be sure as I haven't done any proper measurement either of the expectations or of the build quality.
> 
> Also, I think you may be confusing build quality and customer service. Customer service is all about how well you respond to customers when there *are* problems. By responding "well" I mean actually resolving the problem not just being nice or polite. So *yes*, we really should "base our judgement of good Customer Service on how well the supplier deals with all the faults and issues following delivery" because that's absolutely the essence of *customer* service.
> 
> Build quality is perhaps better expressed as *product and service *quality (by "service" here I *don't* mean customer service but I do mean product servicing, maintenance, repairs, warranty work, and I do mean provision of services in "service" industries).
> 
> There almost certainly is a product and service quality problem in the MH industry, but so there is in, oh where shall I start, the car industry, the consumer electronics industry (Freeview boxes anyone - I've only found 2 that are reasonably reliable), the domestic white goods industry, the computer industry (especially software).....
> 
> As for service industry quality, well, financial services anyone? The travel industry, legal services, estate agency......
> 
> If you think modern cars are well built do take a look at some forums addressing that. You need to have a strong constitution though and be prepared for stronger language than you find on MHF!  Do make sure you include some forums on those "quality" German makes - Mercedes, BMW, VW/Audi (_vorsprung durch technik _indeed!)
> 
> At risk of another long post there are 2 more points. Firstly product and service quality is a matter of design and process. Good design, including design-for-reliability and design-for-maintenance, and well-tested processes are the key factors. Would you believe 3 hours labour to change a front headlamp bulb on a Renault Megane?
> 
> Secondly, any industry that uses the dealer business model should do everything it can to ensure service quality at the accredited dealers (for a start, dealers should be *accredited*, not just signed up on targets). With MHs the converter also puts the dealer in the front line of customer service as I have defined it above, because the dealer is doing not only routine tasks (expected or planned servicing and maintenance) but also repairs to fix problems - that especially takes the dealer to the centre of customer service. It's no use converters "passing the buck" to dealers - it's their product and brand reputation that's on the line if the dealer fails to perform. Perhaps this is where we should look for the real problem in the MH industry.
> 
> That's the planet we live on I'm afraid; I'm not aware of an alternative. That's not to say I give in to poor quality - my expectations are high too. But I suspect that customer service as I've defined it will always be an important aspect of choosing between competitive suppliers.
> 
> Sorry for the long post,
> 
> Roger
Click to expand...

I think that about sums it up!
But remember the dealer often does not get paid for 'putting things right' by the manufacturer at a sensible rate not for all the time and expenses incurred....although of course if he sold the van he would hopefully have made some ££s which can help subsidise this loss..
I feel owners deserve good service and a reasonable quality product, at present we get short changed in both departments a lot of the time. If the vans were better built and prepared using good quality components then warranty repairs would surely diminish...but I guess they would be dearer to build and thus to buy? Meaning fewer vans might be sold....again raising prices (volume lowers cost per unit). But then of course if the dealers spent less time and ££s putting things right there would be a case for smaller margins, lowering prices....
Not an easy equation huh..


----------



## Telbell

> Customer service is all about how well you respond to customers when there are problems.


*All * about responding to customers' problems??

My first reaction was to say "Absolutely not!!" But it depenbds on who you mean by customers & perhaps I'm being unfair if I assume you meant the "end user" (you did didnt you- be honest :wink: )

Yes, the way people respond to problems is a part of the criteria for which employees can be judged/assessed to the National Standards in Customer Service. But this is only a very small part, and interestingly this criteria comes way down in the "pecking order/chronology when it comes to competence in Customer Service.

The priority is "getting it right in the first place" -and this involves all kinds of performance critera, including communication, demanding high standards of suppliers, working with others to improve quality...to name but a few. (I may be useless at DIY & all things technical but I am aware of my facts on this subject as I was heavily involved in the piloting/implementation of the Standards)

As a "last resort"....yes, "solving problems" comes into effect. But the problems should have been sorted before the "end user" comes onto the scene......sorted by manufacturers, converters, dealers,managers, executives, sales people etc.....all of these people of course being each others' "customers".

And in going further than I said previously...if we are now saying that as the buyers of the product Customer service is all about how well you respond to customers when there are problems....then I still say "Absolutely not!" :lol:-and merely to suggest it again supports a claim that there's something wrong within the Industry.

(My turn to apologise for lengthy Post :wink: )


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## roger-the-lodger

Telbell said:


> *All * about responding to customers' problems??
> 
> My first reaction was to say "Absolutely not!!" But it depenbds on who you mean by customers & perhaps I'm being unfair if I assume you meant the "end user" (you did didnt you- be honest :wink: )


Yes, by "customer", in the context of "customer service" I did mean the end user, absolutely I did!

I respect your experience here, Telbell, and I wonder if this is a difference in how we're using the terms. I worked in industries that were serving business-to-business markets not consumer markets. Many of the things you mention were managed as part of "quality assurance" (QA) or "partner management". Yes, in one company especially, we had the idea of everyone being a customer and within the organisation everyone recognising who his or her "customers" were. But it was only one of several ways we tried to improve quality, efficiency, delivery, competitiveness and all those things you want to improve! We had the stakeholder idea (boy did we have that bad in one company); I'm not sure any of it worked all that well in practice or made much difference. But we did have customer service (CS) as a function with functional management, usually represented on the board. They worked with QA but their focus was the invoiced end-user because at the end of the day the end-users paid all our wages. Their effort went into fixing problems quickly and effectively and into feeding back into QA, engineering and production, so that even using my definitions there is much more to CS than just problem fixing. But I didn't say it was all about fixing problems, I did say it was all about responding to them and the feedback into the organisation is a vital part of that response, otherwise the problems just re-occur repeatedly.

I should have made that point better and I also think that perhaps I'm using customer service to describe a function while you're using it to describe something wider - a concept if you like.

I guess I'd say that if you got quality perfectly right you wouldn't need customer service (the way I use the term). The end-user would take delivery and remain happy throughout the product's life because nothing would go wrong. You wouldn't hear from him again until he wanted to buy again (newer product). So I think we're using words very differently.

And I think your emphasis on getting things right in the first place is a great idea, but the practical evidence from many industries is that it is very difficult to achieve. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, of course; indeed it means we should try all the harder, but it does suggest that we'd better have my limited problem-solving version of customer service ready and waiting for when it's needed. As an end-user, having a problem is bad, but having a problem you can't get fixed is hugely worse.

If you fix a problem many (end-user) customers will forgive you and come back - I've seen so many examples of that. But if you fail to fix it they will desert you for ever.

All I'd say about the MH industry is that there are too many problems and there are too many problems not getting fixed. Posts on here show both to be true.

Roger


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## Telbell

> I'm using customer service to describe a function while you're using it to describe something wider - a concept if you like.


Possibly-but if we go "back to basics" it's tempting to see C.S. as merely a function between Fred Smith ("end user" ) and "Joe Bloggs Motorhomes Ltd" but of course it's much more than that. If Fred discovers unacceptabe problems he'll go back to Joe Bloggs & complain, then (according to many Posts on here) Fred will say he had wonderful service because the problems were sorted.- weird!

But shouldn't we be asking why Joe Bloggs sold on his vehicle in that "condition"....and if it were a fault with converter why Joe didn't reject the vehicle?....and if it were a fault at manufacture why the converter didn't sort it with them....and so on. Bottom line is someone (everyone?) didn't do their job properly right up the chain.

I accept we wouldn't expect the shop assistant in WH Smiths to test every biro they sold before handing it over to the customer (though I do recollect my dad used to do that years ago when he had a newsagents :lol: ). But we're talking here of £40k plus products.



> And I think your emphasis on getting things right in the first place is a great idea, but the practical evidence from many industries is that it is very difficult to achieve.


Not impossible if everybody did their job properly "up the chain".

Cheers


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## Pixelpusher

I'm glad to see that other folks have similar concepts regarding quality and customer service as my own.

For me there are three fundamental issues that need addressing - and this is not just restricted to the MH industry although my own experience here is that its been the most dissapointing that I've come across.

1. Designs should meet the requirements of Form, Fit and Function
2. Manufacturing processes should not allow vehicles to be shipped with faults and failures.
3. An effective Customer Service organisation - either direct or through a close knit Dealer Network needs to be in place.


Put another way:-

1. It should do 'what it says on the tin'
2. It shouldn't come with the expectation that things might not work on delivery or fail early - i.e no snagging list.
3. When things go wrong they should be fixed quickly and with minimum inconvenience to the customer.

All of the above can be addressed by a commitment to Quality that is not just 'talking the talk'. It has to be a practise and committment instilled in every employee of every discipline and most importantly a prime directive from Senior Management. 

All too often I've seen Senior Management fail to see the necessity of Quality Engineering - its seen as an expensive overhead that gets in the way of shipping product. Usually these same managers have never actually measured the Cost of Quality. They've never measured the Price of Conformance and Price of Non-Conformance i.e how much is spent on putting things right too late in the manufacturing chain; how much warranty repairs are costing; and how much business is being lost because of poor reputation for quality.

Colin


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## Telbell

> Quality Engineering - its seen as an expensive overhead that gets in the way of shipping product. .......................i.e how much is spent on putting things right too late in the manufacturing chain; how much warranty repairs are costing; and how much business is being lost because of poor reputation for quality.


I think that's right. I reckon if you asked those many Motorhomers who'd suffered real hassle and problems soon after purchase, if they had been prepared to spend, say an extra grand to absolutely guarantee that they wouldn't have needed to go screaming & shouting to dealers, they'd have agreed.

But instead there seems to be a culture of "what can we get away with as cheaply as possible" amongst manufacturers without considering the costs implied in the above quote.


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## Pixelpusher

I'm not sure I would need to spend an extra £1k to avoid the hassle I've had. Many of my problems were preventable in the first place without additional cost.

Colin


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## roger-the-lodger

Telbell said:


> Not impossible if everybody did their job properly "up the chain".


I think we're in fundamental agreement on much of this!

My emphasis on suppliers and their agents (dealers) having the ability to solve problems, and using that ability effectively, simply relates to the situation as it is now. When things are not as they should be you have to protect yourself against the possible consequences and doing that shouldn't stop you trying to put the wrong things right. But you welcome things that help protect you. The basis of insurance in fact!

We might agree that all motorists should drive skifully, carefully and defensively and that if that was so road casualties would be greatly reduced. But we know that's not going to happen anytime soon so we're pleased we can at least insure ourselves to lessen the blow if the worst happens. Like all analogies it's far from perfect, but it may help make the point. One reason Fred says he's had "wonderful service" when his problems are solved may well be that he knows so many people don't get their problems solved without ten times the hassle he has had, or maybe don't get them solved at all. The last condition is a source of true desperation and has led (I know of cases) to people giving up motorhoming for ever.

But at the same time I entirely agree that we should expect and push for higher quality product, especially in high-price products like motorhomes. As for the cost equation are we end-users contributing to the present situation by buying essentially on price in a competitive market?

I ask that only to be provocative of course, as usual! :wink:

And I accept (as has been suggested on here) that there are product faults so patently stupid, so clearly evidence of poor process and/or slapdash work and/or weak management that money will not prevent their re-occurence.

Roger


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## Telbell

> I'm not sure I would need to spend an extra £1k to avoid the hassle I've had. Many of my problems were preventable in the first place without additional cost.


Colin- I only raise that point as a "retrospective alternative" if you like. I've been l quite fortunate in my purchase (everything crossed & not tempting fat :roll: ) but looking at some of the horror stories over the past years/weeks/months that some MHF-ers have related, I'm sure they's have been content to have paid an extra grand to avoid any futrure hassle.

[/quote] *As for the cost equation are we end-users contributing to the present situation by buying essentially on price in a competitive market*? 


> Roger-Probably! My comment above also relates-we shouldn't *have* to bung an extra few quid to get near perfect service but perhaps a refundable deposit to gurantee it may concentrate some minds :wink:
> 
> (Think we've strayed off topic just a tad :lol: )


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## roger-the-lodger

Telbell said:


> ...we shouldn't *have* to bung an extra few quid to get near perfect service but perhaps a refundable deposit to gurantee it may concentrate some minds :wink:


Hmmm ... interesting idea!



> (Think we've strayed off topic just a tad :lol: )


Yes indeed, but it's been a good discussion. 

Roger


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## Otto-de-froste

Back to Topic then,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Yes I like our van (though it's a Bessacarr)

We would have liked a 500 series, but had to stick with a budget, and we got a better trade in for buying new

Had a paint problem that was sorted by Glossop; and monitored by Swift

A little damp in the cupboards was resolved by me after reading the helpful leaflet sent to me by Swift

The control panel became infested with gremlins, but a new one was delivered from Swift last week. 
Should I be expected to remove and replace? 
I really don't mind because Swift did everything reasonably practicable to effect a timely repair, and it was hardly rocket science
I think it also strengthens the relationship in that Swift were happy to trust me with the job (hope they don't tell me I've now voided the warranty)  

There are a few nominal rattles, but I suspect they relate mostly to the bits and bobs in the cupboards

I'm sure Swift would not feel maligned if I suggested that their strategy of providing quality customer service is mostly a commercial decision
But it seems to work, and it keeps me happy

Just wish it had a drinks cabinet like the old E445


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## RichardnGill

Thanks for getting back on topic Otto-de-froste as we are looking to buy a new Swift / Bessacarr soon and I was reading this post with interest.

Now any more views on Swift group vans and service?

Richard...


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## 94055

RichardnGill said:


> Thanks for getting back on topic Otto-de-froste as we are looking to buy a new Swift / Bessacarr soon and I was reading this post with interest.
> 
> Now any more views on Swift group vans and service?
> 
> Richard...


Richard,

It is a while since I last said it so.................time to say it again.

Would I buy a Swift if I was you? 
Answer = YES

We traded in a Hymer B544L 2005 LHD for a Brand new 680FB Bolero. Are we sorry we did it? 
Answer = NO

So far we have had excellent service from Swift and we feel this will continue, Peter, Kath and the rest of the Swift team are second to none.

So get the new van ordered, at this time I would shop around and get the best trade-in.

Good luck and see you soon,

Steve and Jan


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## mhaze

Put me down for a meeting/disscussion with swift, whilst I'm very happy with my Bolero there are a few niggles. As an artist, craftsman and designer of just about everything in my career, I feel I have a some contributions to make!

Mick


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## SwiftGroup

*Forum*

mhaze

I have added you to the list. Can you just drop me an email with your name and details.

Thanks

Kath


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## roger-the-lodger

Otto-de-froste said:


> Back to Topic then,,,,,,,,,,,,,


I do apologise as I was one who took this thread OT! 

Back on topic then, I've already said I'm delighted with my Bessacarr E560 and so far (3 months, 2700 miles) had only a small wiring problem immediately after I collected it. Otherwise, no problems.

I am interested in fitting a frost protection heating element in the fresh water tank; elements in water and waste tanks are offered on 2009 models by Swift as a factory-fitted option. The elements are from CAK.

I posted on MHF to see if anyone could advise me on fitting this myself and almost immediately had a PM from Swift asking me for contact details so they could help. This wasn't help with a problem, it was just help with a job I wanted to do. I was phoned within a day by an engineer at Swift who is in the process of preparing some instructions for me.

This is my first motorhome, so I've no experience of other converters, but I can't imagine any car manufacturer would do anything like that. Can you imagine a technical person at Ford calling you to help you fit an accessory?

Good on you, Swift!

Roger


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## colonel

Hi Nickynoo,

Just to let you know that we picked up our Voyager on Friday. Yes there were a few problems on handover but no show stoppers. We went off and had a really exciting weekend on the CC&C campsite in Devizes. Thank you to the wardens there who were not only helpful and kept an eye on us, but were genuinely nice people.

Biggest problem was the habitation door not shutting properly. Guess what, after telling Lowdhams on Sunday on our return, yesterday a new lock on it's way from Swift. Will be fitted today and we are off on Thursday for another weekend away.

So, should you buy from Swift, are we happy. Most definitely yes.

Good luck and keep us posted as to how you get on.


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## cravenoxav

*Battery*

Hi

I am back on here and now fully subscribed... thought that it would be a good investment for all the helpful advice received.

Im into my 5th week of ownership and love going out in the van... after many years trailer tenting and then tugging its been a real breath of fresh air... however after a few initial comments regarding the 'what i would call the girly bits' carpets and cushions. I now have some comments and teething troubles with the 'boy type stuff.

After being away from the van for 8 days i went to check that all in well with 'Koni' as it is not stored on my drive..... (need a new house for that). Turned on the motorhome but the battery was dead..... not a sign of life..... i then had to go and buy some jump leads... as i dont own a set... they did the trick..... 
However, i must say that i am disappointed that a new van was flat after such a short spell.... i rang and spoke to the salesman at the dealer who informed me that the reversing camera/sat nav takes a trickle from the battery and should therefore be disconnected when in use. He also confirned that Swift were aware of the problem (but added its not a problem in all of the vans) i was just unlucky....... 
I must admit i am not happy at having to disconnect the battery . One of the questions i have is what happens to the alarm, immobilser and even the tracker that i had to have fitted to comply with the insurance if i disconnect......

Surely if Swift are aware then they should be looking at the solution rather than a work around. I have sent an email to swift on their website but havent yet had a reply..... also asking for a refund of the cost of the jump leads as this is an expense i would have expected from a new purchase of £50k....

Any help or advise on this would be appreciated.

Also does my van have a function to turn on the heating similar to how you'd use a timer on the central heating at home?


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## SwiftGroup

*Re: Battery*



cravenoxav said:


> Hi
> 
> I am back on here and now fully subscribed... thought that it would be a good investment for all the helpful advice received.
> 
> Im into my 5th week of ownership and love going out in the van... after many years trailer tenting and then tugging its been a real breath of fresh air... however after a few initial comments regarding the 'what i would call the girly bits' carpets and cushions. I now have some comments and teething troubles with the 'boy type stuff.
> 
> After being away from the van for 8 days i went to check that all in well with 'Koni' as it is not stored on my drive..... (need a new house for that). Turned on the motorhome but the battery was dead..... not a sign of life..... i then had to go and buy some jump leads... as i dont own a set... they did the trick.....
> However, i must say that i am disappointed that a new van was flat after such a short spell.... i rang and spoke to the salesman at the dealer who informed me that the reversing camera/sat nav takes a trickle from the battery and should therefore be disconnected when in use. He also confirned that Swift were aware of the problem (but added its not a problem in all of the vans) i was just unlucky.......
> I must admit i am not happy at having to disconnect the battery . One of the questions i have is what happens to the alarm, immobilser and even the tracker that i had to have fitted to comply with the insurance if i disconnect......
> 
> Surely if Swift are aware then they should be looking at the solution rather than a work around. I have sent an email to swift on their website but havent yet had a reply..... also asking for a refund of the cost of the jump leads as this is an expense i would have expected from a new purchase of £50k....
> 
> Any help or advise on this would be appreciated.
> 
> Also does my van have a function to turn on the heating similar to how you'd use a timer on the central heating at home?


Hi

The dealers have been sent a process sheet for resolving the reversing camera draining the battery.

I would need to know your specific vehicle to tell you whether you have the automatic timer for the heating.

Do you want to send me a PM?

Regards
Kath


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## Ray

*swift recomendations*

Hi All
We have a Swift Kontiki 645, and well please with it, although did have few problems with the roof but sorted by Swift, we had recalls from Fiat as well but just niggley things, we live in ours full time, this is our third Swift, first Sundance 600S, then Sundance 630L, all bought from Johnscross M & C, we recommend both the dealer because nothing is to much trouble, and swift.


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## 108872

*swift*

I own a bessie e769,had it just over 18 months.
The dealer i bought from i would not use again but has for swift their service has been fantastic.
My hab battery used to drain quite quick but have added a second battery & now its great.
With the dealer if i reported a problem then i was expected to take it to them before they would even look to put it right,this would mean taking a day off work for them to look;then they would book it in rather than just booking it in over the phone so i was expected to loose 2 days off work plus the cost of making the journey twice.
With swift tell them over the phone what the problem is and they arrange everything and ring you with updates.
I can only speak has i find and i for one would have no worries about buying a swift prouduct.
Dave.


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

*Re: swift recomendations*



Ray said:


> Hi All
> We have a Swift Kontiki 645, and well please with it, although did have few problems with the roof but sorted by Swift, we had recalls from Fiat as well but just niggley things, we live in ours full time, this is our third Swift, first Sundance 600S, then Sundance 630L, all bought from Johnscross M & C, we recommend both the dealer because nothing is to much trouble, and swift.


Hi Ray,

Thanks for that, I will pass it on to Glenn and the workshop lads.

Peter


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## Happyrunner

Would anyone like to swop my Auto-Trail for a Swift, please?


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

Happyrunner said:


> Would anyone like to swop my Auto-Trail for a Swift, please?


Hi,

Co,me down and talk to us! We are open 7 days a week

Peter


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## Happyrunner

Thanks Peter. If all else fails and all that, I'll bare your offer in mind. 

Linda


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## Happyrunner

Oh Peter,
Sorry forgot to ask - Please tell me your previous job was not as a salesman for MFI was it?

Regards
Linda


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## Rislar

We love our suntour, and the only thing I would change it to would be a Kontiki  and only for more comfort


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

Happyrunner said:


> Oh Peter,
> Sorry forgot to ask - Please tell me your previous job was not as a salesman for MFI was it?
> 
> Regards
> Linda


Hi Linda,

Most definately NOT! been my own man since I was 18 years old and thats many years ago.

As they say 'you get whats on the tin' when you buy from me.

Peter


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