# Get it on a lead!!



## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

Is it me?

For the second time in as many week, Rudy (pictured left) has been set upon by a dog...both times yappy little ones. On both occasions, Rudy was on his lead, the other one wasn't, came across, was initially friendly then went for him. Good job his fur's so thick, they never got through.

Both times, the owners came out with the astounding "oh, sorry about this, he does sometimes go for dogs that are on a lead".

For f..k's sake, if that's the case, get the thing on a bl00dy lead!!

At least tonight's got a boot up his but...scurried off after that.

I can't honestly claim that Rudy always comes back to me straight away when summoned back when off lead (especially if there's something interesting to smell), but he's not got a bad bone in his body - if (god forbid) he was ever aggressive to another dog, he'd not be let of the lead again.

Have I really got unreasonable expectations?

Paul


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Not at all.

Though I usually pick up on the lead "thing" simply because that is a solution, not a requirement. The requirement is to have your dog under control at all times when in proximity to other people or their pets. How one meets that requirement should be up to the owner.

A selfish point as I only put our dog on a lead when I judge necessary (if I can get away with it solely when walking alongside a busy road). No-one has complained yet but I often wait with baited breath.

Dave


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## weldted (May 1, 2005)

*dogs control*

we have two dogs a border collie and a border collie cross, who are well behaved and come when called, but one of them has a problem with german shepards so if we see one coming we put her on a lead, it is very annoying when if your dog is on a lead and another one runs up and starts trouble, in the event of a fight I carry a couple of bags of pepper like you get in McDonalds just tearing one near the dogs but not at them is enough to stop most problems as they both will start snezzing, I repeat not at the dogs but near them I have only had to do this a couple of times, but try to remain calm as shouting at the dogs or their owners will only wind them up


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

I always carry a stout walking stick when taking shelties for a walk.

A poke on the end of the nose usually sends them packing. Owners too.

Dave p


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## waz (Jan 5, 2008)

Having kennels we find that dogs of lead can be aggressive to dogs on a lead. We normally tell customers to let them of the lead and we have no problems then.Not saying that this would work for every situation.
Paul said 
.both times yappy little ones.
Small dogs make the most noise. I have been bitten 5 times and all from small dogs, give me an obedient Alsation any time.

Waz


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## kennyboy (Oct 25, 2005)

Well our Jack Russell (small and yappy) has been nicknamed "the pitbull" and "the assassin" so beware ...... If you come across a 6kg jack russell called George (aka special needs) keep a wide berth   
He is lovely really just a bit funny sometimes like all dogs!
Ken


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## gnscloz (Oct 4, 2008)

loose the lead so your dog can defend its self, normally the other dog will back off then,


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## The-Clangers (Sep 18, 2009)

Border Terrier who can be a bit unpredictable with other dogs. Dog trainer advised that if we see other dog and it is on lead, put ours on lead. If other dog is off lead then leave ours off lead. 

David


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

As I too own a dog that seems to have "victim" tattood on her forehead I really sympathise. She has been attacked now about about seven times. All have been fairly big dogs, one was a Great Dane 8O 

The reason, in my opinion, that little dogs are worse is that their owners often pick them up when they are puppies and they never really learn to read other dogs' body language. They also perhaps feel more vulnerable and, like the playground bully, get in first before they can be hurt.

The answer is to socialise, socialise, socialise those puppies before the "fear period" sets in at around 13 weeks of age.


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

_The answer is to socialise, socialise, socialise those puppies before the "fear period" sets in at around 13 weeks of age._

Spot on...


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Dogs*

Hi

As you know I have Jenny who is a medium - large dog. She has been pestered on numerous occasions by what I call "yappy dogs." I think the owner of these dogs think the small dog cannot do harm. Unfortunately, they can.

I find that the owners of large dogs seem to have more respect for others - maybe, just maybe because people might have a physical fear of a large dog bounding towards them etc.

Jenny is very wary of small dogs now.

Russell


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## tviall (May 1, 2005)

Wise words Russell.

I must admit when I started to read this thread I was expecting the usual barrage of "dogs must always be on a lead" but I'm pleasantly surprised by the common seanse and practical approach by everyone. 

I was told at dog school that if you place a dog back onto a lead everytime you come across another dog or any other situation for that matter, whatever it may be, eg cyclist, runner, the dog will extinctively feel that a situation has arisen and the senses are hightened. Being on a lead, the only thing the dog can do is bark and act agressively in the hope that the perceived threat goes away. If the dog was off lead the dog could make up its own mind whether the situation is threatening or not.

However, having said all this I will always walk with my collie cross off lead as much as possible (gives him better freedom) and will if the other dog owner or the situation requires it, put him back on the lead. 

I have always thought that the best thing you can do for a dog is socialise him. I focused on this and still do. Now, my dog mostly ignores other dogs.

Tony


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

Spacerunner said:


> _The answer is to socialise, socialise, socialise those puppies before the "fear period" sets in at around 13 weeks of age._
> 
> Spot on...


Sorry...I do agree that dogs should be socialised so don't misunderstand me...but I had to feed back on that as there's an implication that Rudy isn't socialised. He's a friendly little dog, gets along fine with 99.9% of dogs that he meets (and those that he doesn't has learned the common sense to walk away or submit) and has been mixing with dogs since he was a puppy.

On both of these occasions, though, the other dogs have come along, been friendly, been doing the usual sniffing, then from nowhere started attacking. Both times the dogs were on his back so he wasn't able to be submissive...the one saving grace is that being an extremely fluffy dog, they weren't able to bite anything but the fur.

My usual approach (when at the parkland area) is to have Rudy off-lead unless we see a dog approaching on-lead, in which case I take that as a signal and call him back to lead. The first attack took place at the side of a road (the other runt actually ran across the road to see him!), so Rudy was obviously on a lead and letting him off it would be more dangerous. On the second, it was night/pitch black (hence Rudy on lead), black dog, owner dressed in black, didn't actually see them until they were about 10 feet away.

Paul


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Sorry Paul if you think that people were criticising Rudy. I read that he was a friendly dog and that he wouldn't hurt a fly. I think that people were just trying to help explain why the other dogs felt it necessary to attack him.
One thing that is known is that if the other dogs hadn't been socialised with small furry ones then they may not regognise Rudy as "harmless".
During socialisation, if puppies see enough different breeds, then they "generalise" that all dogs are safe to be around. It varies as to how many nice encounters, with different dogs, it takes for each puppy to generalise that all dogs are safe. It can be dozens.

I was at a class once with a lovely little Staffy bitch who loved all the dogs at class until a very hairy Tibetan Terrier walked in. She then went catatonic with fear. When I spoke to her owner they said that they cannot remember her ever meeting a hairy breed when she was a puppy (she lived in the country).

What I am saying is that it is the other dogs that have a problem with Rudy. It is all credit to him, and you, that he has stayed friendly.

Tony - you went to a good class


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## peaky (Jul 15, 2009)

we have a gorgeous 2 year old yorkie, socialization on this island is very limited im afraid, sophie had a bad experience with a golden retriever as a pup and will now go for the kill if she sees a large dog. we always have her on the lead as i dont trust her, some dogs she loves others she hates we can never tell , an alsation came up to say hi,i waved the owner to say get it away!! sure enough she wanted to kill he was most suprised she would bother with his large docile dog !!! other than that she s gorgeous !!!


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Leads*



DABurleigh said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Though I usually pick up on the lead "thing" simply because that is a solution, not a requirement. The requirement is to have your dog under control at all times when in proximity to other people or their pets. How one meets that requirement should be up to the owner.
> 
> ...


That reminds me of when our trusty old Shep was alive.

Had took him down the vale for a walk. He was off the lead and having a mooch around.

When we turned the corner there was a woman with 7 dogs, All on leads bar one.

Shep bounded over and her dogs went crazy and she got all tangled up in leads (quite amusing) just managed to get Shep out unscathed.

The woman went crazy telling me I should have my dog on a F****** lead!

I asked her to reconsider what she had said, she told me to **** Off.

So I carried on but rarely took him off a lead after that.


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## lalala (Aug 13, 2009)

My daughter lives in a city but near a lovely walk (ex railway). She has had to stop taking her two small children there because of dog owners thinking it is appropriate to allow their dogs to rush at the little ones and jump at them. Instead of the children now liking and trusting dogs they are scared. What would you do?
Lala


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Needless to say, our little rat doesn't fall into the usual pattern.

Firstly, we don't let her off the lead as we have never been able to stop her running off with her nose to the ground when following a scent, and if a pigeon gets up and she sees it she would follow it for miles . . . probably quite literally.

(In most ways she is very well trained - she will _stay _for 200 metres then come like a rocket when the signal is waved. She will _stop _on a verbal command when she gets close enough to hear it, and will _sit _(at a distance) and _stay _as we walk away again . . . so it isn't because she is difficult to train.)

She attacks other dogs, but never goes for dominant ones. It's always the submissive ones she picks on, then climbs on their neck and snarls as if she was about to eat them. She has never (yet) bitten, but we are often forced to pull her back with the lead although this is obviously not the best way to deal with it.

I think some dogs learn these behaviours due to signals that we are unaware of, which makes it very difficult to understand and administer corrective training.

Grace has a 20 metre nylon tape lead to give her freedom in the fields, and because she has used it since she was quite small it gives her no problems at all. It's the best compromise I've come up with - even though it does get tied in knots occasionally!

Dave


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

lalala said:


> My daughter lives in a city but near a lovely walk (ex railway). She has had to stop taking her two small children there because of dog owners thinking it is appropriate to allow their dogs to rush at the little ones and jump at them. Instead of the children now liking and trusting dogs they are scared. What would you do?
> Lala


Yes, I'm very conscious when walking Zoe on a crowded pavement along shops. Think of it from a child's perspective - weaving through this sea of legs all in a rush when suddenly a dog's head with mouth open (panting) and maybe rows of teeth appears at their face level. Scary!

Lala - a difficult one unless your daughter wants the hassle of potential confrontation with people who simply don't understand it from her point of view. Probably above all I'd encourage your daughter to seek out more reassuring canine experiences for her children. Perhaps if she has friends nearby with dogs, ask if you could all go for a walk together. You don't want them to grow up being apprehensive to dogs.

Dave


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## loughrigg (Nov 10, 2008)

Apologies if this is wandering a bit off topic.

I have never owned a dog (just always had cats around), but very occasionally go on walks with a family group including a sister-in-law with her (medium-sized) dog.

Siter-in-law is very much in the "never use the lead unless you are forced to" camp. Unfortunately, in three or four trips out, I've watched her dog chase hill sheep, nearly cause an accident by running across a car park to investigate another dog and be attacked by a couple of farm dogs as we walked past the farmyard with the retriever running free.

I'm afraid there will be a serious outcome before long, but I'd be interested to know what the dog owners on MHF think.

Mike


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## tviall (May 1, 2005)

I was always told at my dog training school that my dog, Rocky, was doing very well and doing everything that was expected on him. However, I was always being told that I was doing it wrong.

I think it says it all really. :lol: 

Tony


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## adonisito (Nov 6, 2009)

Bramble is always off lead and charges off to any dog to play. My personal opinion is that leads are useful when near busy roads, crowds of people, busy campsites etc. I suppose its a bit like bringing up kids, they have to make their own mistakes or they don't learn.


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## AndrewandShirley (Oct 13, 2007)

We have two thoughts on the subject:

We have trained all our dogs to be off lead and never to respond to anything unless instructed. They are free around certain areas but know the boundaries.

But as site wardens Andrew has been bitten many times always due to dogs being off leads, but due to owners failing to control their dogs. Whilst we have the right to evicted, we always give the owners a second chance. 

So it really is an owner problem not a dog one?


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

There is the point that when a dog is running around Off lead you don't see where they Poo so you don't pick it up. :wink: 
We have seen this time and time again, on campsites and rally fields where it matters about the mess laying around and a child slips up in it.
We had it happen at the MCC AGM and the child went to the M/Home and sat down and smeared it everywhere. :roll: 
Also how many times do you see people calling their lost dog and then have to go home without it then spend their weekends going back and hoping to find their precious friend.
A Jack Russell will get stuck under ground in a burrow (as Prince Charles dog did) 
Dogs should always be on lead in the country especially at lambing time.
I have seen some wonderful dogs off lead and doing everything they are told to do but you should always be aware the unexpected can always happen.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Well, that's our Mavis put me in my place!

Zoe? Look at this picture. When you see her, nip her ankles will you? 

Dave


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

DABurleigh said:


> Well, that's our Mavis put me in my place!
> 
> Zoe? Look at this picture. When you see her, nip her ankles will you?
> 
> Dave


No not you Dave or Tony I have seen how well behaved your dogs are Im talking about the unruly ones that we meet.
I have had a difficult rescue dog (did you know that) :roll: But I have got him off lead in fields that are safe or on the beach, under strong control --its all a case of training but there are people that walk along with theirs off lead and they are talking away to someone and just not paying attention to where their dogs are pooing.
AND if you dare say have you got a bag ---WELL if looks could kill :evil:


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## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

Zebedee said:


> Needless to say, our little rat doesn't fall into the usual pattern.
> 
> Firstly, we don't let her off the lead as we have never been able to stop her running off with her nose to the ground when following a scent, and if a pigeon gets up and she sees it she would follow it for miles . . . probably quite literally.
> 
> ...


Hi Dave ref letting Gracie off the lead, I am afraid it is the same with Rolo and despite being tempted and knowing that a dog should be able to run free at times, we just daren't as I know he would be over the hills and far away............we can however let Megan off in certain places and circumstances, I think I have said before that a Welshie breeder in Derbyshire once told me that Welshies or should I say certain Welshies should never be let off a lead. Rolo seems happy enough with his extending lead and has just had a wonderful time sliding down the hills in the peak district.


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## tviall (May 1, 2005)

locovan said:


> DABurleigh said:
> 
> 
> > Well, that's our Mavis put me in my place!
> ...


That's the best feeling in the world Mavis. If I see a dog mess somewhere and the owner fails to pick it up I make a big point of offering a bag. It may be wicked but I will make them feel so small becuase in my mind there's no excuse for it.

Hope you are well Mavis. See you next weekend?

T


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## buffallobill (Sep 28, 2007)

our dog as a social mixing problem, he is always on the lead ,unless we are miles away in the remotest country side.
other dog owners wont listen when they let their dog run up and start greeting when i ask them not to get too close,
then i am accused of having a viscious dog which is on a lead and theirs isnt , i did not approach their dog they allowed their dog to approach ours after asking them to keep it away.
so i am in favour for less hassle to have dogs on leads in public places and walks.. 
our dog is a springer spaniel, with some unsocial behaviour.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Many of you have met our two. We always use leads until we can see its safe not to. Lottie will have a go at most dogs if she's on a lead (she is a rescue dog and we don't think she was socialised at all as a puppy) but those that know us realise that Jake is the trouble maker. He is the one that won't come back. Often if we meet a strange dog whilst its off its lead and my two are off the lead I get Jake under control first and find then that Lottie either ignores the other one, issues a warning growl or says hello big boy are you doing anything later? Bouncing labradors are her least favourite she has been known to put three into submission at once. Buster, Tinaglenn's dog still thinks he's in with a chance  Skye her other one has been told he is at the bottom of the pack but being Skye keeps forgetting. Jake just concentrated on getting cuddles.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

If all dogs were well socialised as puppies we would not be having this debate.

Hopefully when the, proposed, new regulations to control puppy farmers and other bad breeders come into force things may gradually change. As the bad breeders go out of business puppies will be harder to come by. Those breeders left will be very careful a) to breed carefully by studying gentetics b) to rear the puppy well in a stimulating environment and c) to place the puppy in a home, at the right age, where it will be properly socialised, trained and cared for. 
It looks like there will be some sort of contract between an owner and breeder where there will be repurcussions if the breeder has failed to breed a healthy, confident and well socialised puppy. Likewise the owner will have no redress if they fail to socialise, train and care for the puppy.

For the sake of our dogs - bring it on.


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## Waleem (Nov 1, 2006)

Can I just refer you all to my post from some time ago:

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-54093-.html

This tells of my awful experience of a dog being off a lead and uncontrolled. I must say that in this thread, the OP's opinion has been treated very sensibly-in my thread, it degenerated into an"It must have been your dog's fault because he's a Greyhound and isnt muzzled".

Its also interesting that there have been other threads recently where posters have referred to other dog attacks and said that the Police "dont care" and "dont do anything about it". Let me clearly state that this is NOT The case. My situation, which was not caused by me in any way led to me being interviewed under caution at my local Police station. No action was taken because I was able to demonstrate that it was in no way my fault, but believe me , it WAS Properly investigated. This is because the dangerous dogs act can be used against ANY type of Dog, not just the proscribed ones.


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## bowlty (Dec 28, 2009)

hi 
i have a germen shepherd which i walk on the beach most days she is always let off the lead unless i see little dogs, today there was a couple with three of these yappy little dogs and two of them started on my dog
chip only wants her swim and is not interested in other dogs but this couple had they dogs on leads and took them to my dog ,let them attack my dog,(said sorry they always do that ) it,s not the dogs but the owner,s who are mad
bowlty


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## colour10 (Nov 7, 2007)

Here is a picture of my 2 year old jack-russell, corgi cross called Bushka. I love her!

She has a super temperament and says hi to people and other dogs like a long lost friend. She is never nasty, does not yap.... ever and is constantly happy.

I live in London so I always walk her on a lead. Mostly because cute little dogs seem to be stolen quite frequently around where I live. They entice dogs that are off leads over and then toss them into the back of a car and drive off. If this was to happen to me, I would be a bit like Charles Bronson in that movie that I can't remember the name of.

I cannot tell you how many times we have been approached by dogs off their leads who seem to have mental or psychological issues with other dogs! Bushka has been attacked countless times but the last great big dumb ass dog that went for her got booted in the face and I cannot begin to tell you what I said the it's drunk, ***-in-mouth, Vicky Pollard impersonating scrubber of an owner!

The way I see it is that if someone happily describes their dog as "Can Be A Bit Funny With Other Dogs" it simply reflects the way they have brought it up or the environment in which it lives. I see a pattern with the brain dead chavs in my area. They seem to bring up their dogs the same way they bring up their 5 kids. I suppose when your only 15 years old, what can you expect? 

I agree with the author of this thread. If you have a dog that "Is A Bit Funny Sometimes" Keep it on a lead or leave it at home! 

I feel so much better after that, LOL

Bud


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## bowlty (Dec 28, 2009)

hi bud 
your dog looks cute ,on the farm nextdoor they have 2 jack russell
puppies like little book ends,they meet chip when they were about ten weeks old and we have never had any problems they play great together like i said it the owners not the dogs 
bowlty


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

The problem with the 'should dogs be on leads/not be on leads' type of discussion is that there are so many variables that it breaks down to become pointless mud-slinging between various camps.

Some owners are good with dogs and some are awful. Most are in the middle. Many treat their pets as 'simple humans', conferring human thoughts and emotions on them that they just don't posses and in the process making that most elementary mistake of animal handlers - thinking animals learn lessons from that oddly human trait, punishment.

Dogs are just as different as their owners. Some are bright and obedient (sheep-dog types), some are stupid and aggressive (guarding types), some are only interested in smells (pointers and bloodhounds), some turn their brains off when they run and small ones don't seem to have enough brain matter to do much except yap and bounce around. As many don't fit those stereotypes as do and each dog will react very differently with different people, often as not being very obedient for one partner in a relationship and a complete pain for the other.

Then yet more widely varying people with widely varying animals come along and either defend their dogs right to be free to roam as nature intended or try to make all dog owners feel guilty for not keeping their animals on leads at all times!

A very silly and non-resolvable discussion... 

The only thing I broadly agree with is that dogs off lead will very often work out that they are in a position of advantage over a similarly ranked dog and try to get one over on it by attacking it. The fact that by this time the owner of the dog on the lead has become nervous and is probably pulling at the lead only serves to put the poor pooch into a very aggressive stiff-backed, head-up posture which says all the wrong things to the free dog and only encourages it to attack.

Through experience I've found the solution to this is for the owner holding the lead to drop it and let them get on with it. Even if it looks hideous a dog fight seldom results in injury unless between very equally ranked long-standing enemies and in spite of the noise it is over in 5 seconds if only the weaker dog can get on its back and display an 'appeasement gesture' to demonstrate they are not looking for any trouble. Shout at your dog, or even just come in the room after an absence, especially with a female one and it will display an appeasement gesture by laying on its back, tail tucked in, licking its face and displaying the delicate stomach and neck to attack. You can then display your ignorance of animal behaviour by saying 'Oh look! He/she wants her tummy tickled!'

Once one dog has shown appeasement the 'winner' usually 'gums' the loser on the neck or vulnerable lower areas but doesn't bite and then it's all over. This will be why so many owners think their dog's 'thick fur' saved them from an attack. Having viewed some 'proper' dog fights which would have gone to the death I promise fur is no defence at all against a serious attack. If there was no damage it's because the attack was a skirmish to determine rank and not to resolve a dispute. A bit like lads in a bar seeing who can pee the highest in the urinals.

Of course the last thing this social ritual which has been reliably resolving conflict between highly armed but fragile predators for about 40 million years needs is a shrieking and panicky owner trying to yank their dog by the neck to 'save' it whilst simultaneously attempting to stick the boot in to the assailant!

Let them get on with it and they will almost always resolve it. And remember they are animals and not simple children.

On second thoughts if you look at the picture of my dog and me flying on the left you might say Bungle thinks he's a bit above most other lowly animals! ;-)

Regards, Mark


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## wakk44 (Jun 15, 2006)

patp said:


> If all dogs were well socialised as puppies we would not be having this debate.
> quote]
> 
> Sorry Pat but I must disagree with this statement,
> ...


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"I look forward to the day when the government bring in legislation stating that dogs should be kept on a lead at all times in public places,which would make my dog walks less stressful."

Substitute "under control" with "on a lead" and I'll agree with you. Otherwise I'd lobby as hard as I can against you! 

Dave


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

There are already laws in place
The Dangerous Dog Act and the Road Traffic Act

It is a criminal offence (for the owner and/or the person in charge of the dog) to allow a dog to be 'dangerously out of control' in a public place, a place where it is not permitted to be, and some other areas. A 'dangerously out of control' dog can be defined as a dog that has injured someone or a dog that a person has grounds for reasonable apprehension that it may do so.

Something as simple as your dog chasing, barking at or jumping up at a person or child could lead to a complaint, so ensure that your dog is under control at all times.

If your dog injures a person, it may be seized by the police and your penalty may include a prison sentence and/or a ban on keeping dogs. There is also an automatic presumption that your dog will be destroyed (unless you can persuade the court that it is not a danger to the public, in which case it may be subject to a control order). You may also have to pay a fine, compensation and

costs.

The following breeds are banned under the Dangerous Dog Act:-

American Pit Bull Terriers, Fila Brasiliero, Dogo Argentino and Japanese Tosa.

The Road Traffic Act 1988

*It is an offence to have a dog on a designated road without it being held on a lead*. Local authorities may have similar bye-laws covering public areas. Dogs travelling in vehicles should not be a nuisance or in any way distract the driver during a journey.

If a dog is injured in a car accident, the driver must stop and give their details to the person in charge of the dog. If there is no person in charge of the dog, the incident must be reported to the police within 24 hours.


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

As far as I'm aware dogs already have to be under 'proper control' as they are considered to be chattels in law so are the responsibility of the owners should they cause an accident or other problem. Interestingly cats are considered to have a mind of their own so if they walk under a car and cause a crash it's not the owners fault! This acknowledges that they are roaming animals who're not really owned by anybody. See, the law can sometimes be sensible after all...

To Steve with his unfortunately all too common call for yet more legislation because he feels simply banning or restricting something will make his life easier I'd say come to France where they've just done it and see how you like it. The law now states all dogs have to be on leads in public places. I'd imagine not many UK owners know that who bring their dogs to France on holiday and are unknowingly breaking the law when they are walking them. Being a cynic I suspect many will carry on enjoying the wide open spaces of the French countryside walking their dogs anyway even if on this forum they espouse adhering to all laws at all times no matter how silly and inappropriate they may be.

The equivalent of France's Private Eye magazine suspected Sarkozy passed the law because he likes jogging but is scared of dogs and much political humour has been made about how small men seek power then abuse it for petty reasons - like making 30 million dog owners use a lead! Steve and the president would get on famously!

In practice, of course, most people ignore it. This is the trouble with socially intrusive laws and the French have had a much longer experience of under-employed politicians making petty laws than we have in the UK (though New Labour have strived hard to catch up) which is why they take little notice of them. The poor police now have yet another silly little law they have to be seen to be enforcing which further worsens their relationship with the public who, often as not, tell them to bugger off when they're walking their dog in the middle of nowhere without a lead. The 'old fart brigade' (Les Grognes in French) who want everything regulated have yet another thing to moan on about every time they see an owner with a well controlled dog if doesn't have a bit of string around its neck which also worsens their relationship with others.

You should come and live here, Steve, you'd love it and would make many friends quickly! (at least with the other Grognes) 

My dog doesn't have a lead and never has. The last gendarme who told me to put one on him got told to sod off and was still moaning on when I walked off. He's been attacked whilst out by other dogs and has sometimes come off worse but that's a price worth paying in my eyes. Last year he got mobbed by four farm dogs who nearly killed him (two were wolf defence dogs who will kill another canid unless stopped) but I didn't even go and moan to the farmer as I felt if I wanted to walk by a sheep farm this is something that I should expect might happen once in a while. It's a called tolerance and acceptance. Something legislators and their supporters seldom understand...

Regards, Mark


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Brilliant! Really enjoyed that post 

Dave


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## savannah (May 1, 2005)

Just read this thread...very interesting.....dogs can be just as unpredictable as humans.....whatever their size or breed........as the owner of 7 small dogs and 1 very large dog my attitude is that as I really love all my dogs and take TOTAL responsibility for their welfare my dogs have their freedom at home to roam on my own land and when they are away from the safety of their own home with me they have their freedom to roam restricted for their own safety.....I've heard all the horror stories of what happens when dogs are not under control and would never wish that to happen to my dogs so I take steps to ensure, as best I can, that it never does.
Lynda


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Cjhain*



colour10 said:


> Here is a picture of my 2 year old jack-russell, corgi cross called Bushka. I love her!
> 
> She has a super temperament and says hi to people and other dogs like a long lost friend. She is never nasty, does not yap.... ever and is constantly happy.
> 
> ...


My that is a big thick lead you are on!


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## wakk44 (Jun 15, 2006)

skiboycey said:


> You should come and live here, Steve, you'd love it and would make many friends quickly! (at least with the other Grognes)
> Regards, Mark


Well,I've been called some nasty names in the past but never a Grognes  I thought it was a complimentary term until you explained the meaning :lol:

A very interesting post Mark,I appreciate your point of view but I'm afraid we will just agree to differ,perhaps the French president and I would have an enjoyable time out jogging as we are both of the ''old fart brigade''. :wink:

I was surprised that you would consider walking by a sheep farm with a dog off the lead,something that the majority of dog owners would not do and slightly irresponsible even if your dog is well behaved,surely the courteous thing to do is to put your dog on the lead to protect livestock but I am sure you know best in your ambassadorial role in France. 

At the moment there are too many grey areas with dog control and I tend to be a black and white person of the old fart brigade :lol:

I know that the majority of owners with their dogs off the lead have them under proper control,the problem is with the senseless minority who seem to get a kick from having an aggressive dog.

I had a frightening experience with a tattooed,skinhead character (sorry for typecasting)who had 2 Rottweillers off the lead that both ran towards me in a threatening manner,my dog was on the lead and it put me in a compromising position.

I really hate to see dogs fight but I had no choice but to let him go otherwise by keeping him tethered I fear he could have been badly injured or even worse.

So sadly I think we have to legislate for the minority that ruin it for everyone else,as seems to happen in all walks of life.I reiterate that if all dogs were kept on a lead in public places theoretically there would be no dog fights and less chance of people being bitten(usually by trying to separate fighting dogs)


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

"I was surprised that you would consider walking by a sheep farm with a dog off the lead,something that the majority of dog owners would not do and slightly irresponsible even if your dog is well behaved,surely the courteous thing to do is to put your dog on the lead to protect livestock"

This probably shows a lot about our differences in mindset. I have a 12 year relationship with my dog and know he won't chase sheep so can make a decision based on this. If fact he's scared of them as he got butted by one when a puppy and never quite got over it. You, however, see the words 'dog' and 'sheep' in the same sentence and make assumptions about what will happen, perhaps based on prejudice or maybe on your own success or otherwise with dealing with dog training. After all sheepdogs don't eat the sheep they are herding, do they? In any case there were no sheep there and we were on a campsite next to the farm minding our own business when the dogs came round and decided to duff up mine for territorial reasons. That's what sometimes happens in the countryside and I accept it as the alternative is to never have the joy of seeing animals free again.

"I reiterate that if all dogs were kept on a lead in public places theoretically there would be no dog fights and less chance of people being bitten"

I accept your point but counter that an even better way to prevent dog fights and avoid people getting bitten would be to ban them altogether. It's only a matter of degree. Then where would you be? Standing there with an empty lead and cursing authoritarian governments I suspect. This is why some of us remain so steadfastly anti-legislation - once you start the slippery slope all sorts of people (maybe even the majority) who don't like dogs at all will start to range arguments against you like disease and the 'precautionary principle' and pretty soon you'll be free to go to only a few designated areas with them and then nowhere at all. Why risk a dog on a lead getting free and hurting a child when you could be even safer and not have the dog there in the first place. Go to the South West and try to find a beach to walk a dog on if you want to see this pernicious process in action.

If I have to put up with a few badly behaved dogs, a couple of fights now and again and the odd ill-mannered and aggressive owner I think this is price well worth paying to retain general freedoms we now enjoy. After all it's not that bad really, is it?

Should a dog ban ever come in I suspect you'd be standing shoulder to shoulder with me and engaging in some 'civil disobedience' yourself as you'd feel it so unfair. Now think how I might feel if told to put an elderly dog who had never caused a days problem in his life on a lead for no useful purpose than to placate people like you who'd campaigned for this legislation. Much the same, I suspect.

Never legislate when you can talk, I say. And if you legislate and large numbers of people feel it to be unfair and ill-thought out then get ready for large numbers of them ignoring the new law...

Cheers, Mark

PS - a 'grogne' is a 'groan' in French and refers to the noise old people make when standing up or grumbling about young people. It's actually not a term of abuse and sort of translates to our word of 'old grump' or something like that. I'm often called one by the kids in our village when I tell them to stop letting off bangers outside as it scares my dog...


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

skiboycey said:


> After all sheepdogs don't eat the sheep they are herding, do they?


Can't vouch for anywhere else, but common practise in Cumbria is to bung boistrous sheepdog puppies in with the rams to earn a bit of respect. That's a lot of the reason they don't go too far with the ewes...

Incidentally, may be a "grogne" approach, but around here (according to the lamppost stickers) if you walked your dog along the main road minus lead you'd be looking at a max £1000 fine. Personally I don't have an issue you with you doing that, so long as you've got insurance if it runs in front of my car, and so long as your dog doesn't try to eat mine like the one that kicked this thread off.

(Of the attacks, with hindsight, I'm more comfortable with the 2nd one because it was in the park in the dark and I believe if the guy had seen me, he'd have got his dog back on lead and averted the episode...it was the silly cow the week before who'd let her dog charge across a road to attack mine knowing full well it'd done it before that I have the real issue with)

Paul


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

I tend to think that walking a dog on a lead is a totally artificial relationship. Ok, in the modern world we, mostly, have no alternative given levels of traffic etc. When I walk my dog I like to give him as much freedom as possible to do his doggie things which are most probably completely different to my things. 

For a start he most likely covers at least twice as much distance as me on a typical walk and at a much faster rate. Dogs are designed to run, humans are designed to walk, a big and very basic difference. There can be very little exercise value gained by walking a dog on a lead. No wonder we see very many little, fat dogs on leads. 

Is he under control? Who knows? He's a dog.....cunning, wilful and doggie! He usually obeys me, but I'm not a canine mind reader, I don't teach him tricks, just basic commands. 

I realise he is not just a little, hairy, four-legged person I do realise he is 99% wolf, an animal that has had an unjustified bad press for thousands of years.

He's infuriating, unpredictable even embarrassing at times  , quite honestly I don't know why I persist with him. I only know that without him there would be a very big hole in my life.

OMG....I'm starting to get sentimental....that won't do :lol:


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## JLO (Sep 27, 2006)

Interesting debate, I always walk my dog off the lead (unless on the road) because despite living with a cat he is a cat chaser. My dog (black lab) was very well socialised as a puppy, went to puppy and dog training classes, however as a result of this he is terrified of German Shepherds (they just barked all the time at dog training) If he sees one he does not make eye contact with them at all. He was also attacked 3 times by a boxer so now if I see a boxer when out for a walk I have to put him on the lead because despite being a quiet and sometimes timid dog, he now attacks boxers - I suppose in his mind before they attack him. This attacking dogs with squashed up noses has now gone on to attacking a bull mastiff whilst at Blair Drummond last Easter, luckily for our boy the mastiff which he attacked was only a youngster and we soon stopped it.

My first lab who was a quite large dog was fine until he was attacked by a golden cocker spaniel, then he started having a go at anything which came into his line of sight, I took him to the vets who said "he is like an 18 year old lad who has just found out he can hold his own in a scrap" It was a nightmare walking him, until we were on holiday in Tenby and our dog started on a Doberman - big mistake - our dog - to use a Northern phrase - got a right pasting from this Doberman, but it cured him of the fighting, he didn't do it again.

Our second lab was cured of his interest in sheep when he touched the eletric fence surrounding the sheep with his wet nose - he NEVER forgot that experience and was very respectful towards sheep from that day, in fact he avoided them at all costs.


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