# Post removed - Self promotion ???????



## ianhc

Recently the moderators decided to remove one of my posts, after asking twice for their reasoning and giving them ample opportunity to respond i have received NO such response. SO i think it is up to you the members of this forum to decide.

I already pay for advertising on here £900+ /year utilising the banner services at the top of the page.

The moderators decided that an article i posted that offered all members here ( and only listed on here) the opportunity to stay overnight mid week free of charge at our premises with secure parking, electric, water and wifi if they wish to avail any of our services.

I have purposely not mentioned the service offered to minimise the risk of the moderators removing this post.

If you would like to see the full listing please leave your comments and you decide.
Regards
Ian


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## GEMMY

Sounds a bit harsh to me. 8O 

tony


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## 127057

I don't see it as a problem, I agree seems harsh


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## gnscloz

surely you have to know how you broke the rules, if only so know not to do it again,


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## teifiprt

Its very annoying and disrespectful not to reply to your requests for a reason why your post was removed.
They must have a reason, why not tell you what it is?

Peter.


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## gerardjanice

Hi,

I see that you are providing us with additional information that we would find useful. So I see no harm in it.

But to ignore your request for an explanation is discourteous to say the least. But the moderator concerned will probably hide behind the privilege of anonymity.

Gerard


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## geraldandannie

I just have one comment to make - try not to vilify the moderators.

In removing posts which may be advertising a service, they are only trying to enact the 'rules' that the owner of the site has generated. Some posts are dead easy to discriminate, and no one complains. The problems come in the grey area, when known traders 'mention' their service or their products in posts.

In my time as a mod, this was the most difficult thing to deal with. The rules are there, but deciding whether a post steps over the line or not was hugely difficult. Most of the time, it's not the mods acting on their own initiative, but rather that they're responding to a complaint from a forum member.

I have every faith that before removal, it would have been discussed by several moderators, in detail, and a consensus taken. But try not to shoot the messengers.

Gerald


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## carolgavin

Does sound a bit odd, perhaps a wee phone call to Nuke might shed some light on the subject. 
Usually the moderators are very good.



PS Could not have told you that you advertised here on the banners!


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## bognormike

well you asked:-

Ian posted this 

"If you have ever thought of changing your halogen bulbs for the low power smd led's but unsure how, campercare ( led bulbs 4 u) who advertise on this forum ( see banner at the top), are allowing customers the opportunity to park free of charge overnight ( mon- Fri) in their secure car park with electric HU, water and wifi available.
They will inspect and advise any motorhome for the replacements at discount prices.

They are located 3mls jtn 11 M42, 30 minutes from the Peak District."

without actually referring to the fact that he does in fact run Campercare. 
It was removed, and he was pointed towards the site rules on advertising in the forums. The fcat that the company advertises on MHF does not give them the right to use the FORUMS for self promotion.
is that clear enough?


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## gnscloz

bognormike said:


> well you asked:-
> 
> Ian posted this
> 
> "If you have ever thought of changing your halogen bulbs for the low power smd led's but unsure how, campercare ( led bulbs 4 u) who advertise on this forum ( see banner at the top), are allowing customers the opportunity to park free of charge overnight ( mon- Fri) in their secure car park with electric HU, water and wifi available.
> They will inspect and advise any motorhome for the replacements at discount prices.
> 
> They are located 3mls jtn 11 M42, 30 minutes from the Peak District."
> 
> without actually referring to the fact that he does in fact run Campercare.
> It was removed, and he was pointed towards the site rules on advertising in the forums. The fcat that the company advertises on MHF does not give them the right to use the FORUMS for self promotion.
> is that clear enough?


thanks for that mike

it certainly does not come across that its his own bussiness which is probably why the mods struck, in my eyes it is self advertising 
mark


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## Motorhomersimpson

gerardjanice said:


> But the moderator concerned will probably hide behind the privilege of anonymity.Gerard


Hi Gerard,

I assumed you were new member and you assumed too much by this comment, however I see you are a long standing member, I'm now confused :?

As a long standing member and if you have read the forums often you would be aware that no moderator hides, we are all up front with whatever we do for the members, we don't hide behind anything, well except the sofa when the Daleks are on TV :lol:

MHS...Rob


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## DABurleigh

So Ian claims he wasn't told and Mike says he was. 

I have considered this carefully using Boolean logic analysis techniques and have concluded someone is wrong, but am offering this free consultancy to MHF for scrutiny and peer review in case an error slipped in.

Dave


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## GEMMY

So thats sorted then. 8O 8O 8O 

tony


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## ianhc

I note your comments, the reason for this posting was that after two pms to the moderator who removed the post for confirmation NO replies were received.
I will post the questions asked.


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## ianhc

As mentioned, reply to moderator enclosed

Hi, there is it self promotion to advertise:
A/ An overnight stop that is unavailable anywhere else but this forum
B/ To help motorhomers with a service unavailable anywhere else but this forum
C/ Spend over £900 with this forum ( i thought all advertising was " self promotion"). Why accept any advertising if you stop those that pay for this site to promote their services for the BENEFIT of all members.
Your comments please.


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## asprn

ianhc said:


> Why accept any advertising if you stop those that pay for this site to promote their services for the BENEFIT of all members


I've read the answer to this earlier when it was explained to you by a Mod. The issue is that you pay for advertising in designated advertising sections. To advertise or self-promote in forum posts however is against the forum rules. The fact that you spend £900 on legitimate advertising will not give you exemption to break the forum rules.

Not complicated to me anyway. :roll:

Dougie.


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## DABurleigh

That post rings a bell and I think I was the member who reported it. I'm no MOD but my thinking at the time was that it contravened ALL these MHF rules:



> NO advertising for commercial sites is allowed in the forums.
> 
> If you do wish to advertise on the site then go to the advertising section at http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Advertising
> 
> 2. Any promotion type posts such as blatant "We sell that", "We can do that for you" type posts will be removed immediately by the moderators.
> 
> 4. No "PM Me" / "Phone Me" type postings in the forums.
> 
> 7. MHF would prefer companies to be public with their usernames i.e. if a company is called "MHF" then that should be their username and not "Steve1" or other similar anonymous type usernames.


I note there only has to be one contravention, which should then result in:



> Any offending posts will be removed and the user PM'd.
> 
> The moderators will use their discretion and their decision is final.


I'd like to think you were PMed. I infer from your claim you were not. Is that the case? And presumably you object to the rule that their decision is final?

Dave


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## geraldandannie

asprn said:


> To advertise or self-promote in forum posts however is against the forum rules. The fact that you spend £900 on legitimate advertising will not give you exemption to break the forum rules.


I'm afraid this is true. Others on here have had problems with this rule, but it's fairly clear - traders (whether they're advertisers or not) cannot use forum posts to promote their businesses.

Gerald


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## time-traveller

geraldandannie said:


> asprn said:
> 
> 
> 
> To advertise or self-promote in forum posts however is against the forum rules. The fact that you spend £900 on legitimate advertising will not give you exemption to break the forum rules.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid this is true. Others on here have had problems with this rule, but it's fairly clear - *traders (whether they're advertisers or not) cannot use forum posts to promote their businesses.*Gerald
Click to expand...

Really? You could have fooled me !


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## asprn

geraldandannie said:


> I'm afraid this is true


Why afraid? If there's no exemption, then £9,000 advertising would make no more difference. It cuts both ways surely - advertisers generally are paying for a service which will presumably be of benefit to their business - they're not giving donations. :roll:

Dougie.


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## wobby

I fully agree with the moderators they were right to remove the post.

Wobby


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## billym

quote

I'm afraid this is true. Others on here have had problems with this rule, but it's fairly clear - traders (whether they're advertisers or not) cannot use forum posts to promote their businesses.

Gerald

I can think of advertiser/ advertisers on here for whom the rules should
perhaps be made perfectly clear as opposed to fairly clear . 

One rule for all.....................................................................


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## Kees

A question for Ianhc:

Ian

Why don't you mention your company name and website address in your profile? Surely if your posts are helpful then it can only do your company good? It works for other traders.

Kees


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## gaspode

billym said:


> One rule for all ...............................


Indeed, can't argue with that statement.

However I do think we need to distinguish between a trader who tries to plug his business here with his company name emblazoned all over his username, avatar and persona from one who neglects for some reason to tell members about his commercial interest in the company or products he's endorsing.


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## Rapide561

*Adverts*



time-traveller said:


> geraldandannie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> asprn said:
> 
> 
> 
> To advertise or self-promote in forum posts however is against the forum rules. The fact that you spend £900 on legitimate advertising will not give you exemption to break the forum rules.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid this is true. Others on here have had problems with this rule, but it's fairly clear - *traders (whether they're advertisers or not) cannot use forum posts to promote their businesses.*Gerald
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really? You could have fooled me !
Click to expand...

Agreed!

Russell


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## sersol

Ok,IF there is only one rule,why in the past has Peter from Johns Cross been allowed to get under the radar.Now IF his posts have been removed when saying "we have x.y,z for sale,or give so & so a ring at JCM on monday" then I stand corrected.
I agree that traders should not advertise in forums,but please let there be only one rule,how ever rich or clever people may be.
Gary


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## digbywolf

we`de come! !
dave and sheelagh 8O 8O 8O 8O


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## DABurleigh

Just a tip. I can't recall a single time when I have a reported a post that MODs haven't acted to uphold site rules. This includes MANY posts by JCM, but it's not a personal crusade, so if you feel as you do, click on the exclamation mark and give your reason. Simples!

Dave


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## Zebedee

Ianhc

As you are well aware the action was taken primarily (though not entirely) because you endorsed your own products in forum posts whilst not letting on that you were connected with the product.

At the time it was not known that you own the company you were promoting, and your post was disingenuous to say the least.

You pretended to be a disinterested third party, saying _"If you have ever thought of changing your halogen bulbs for the low power smd led's but unsure how, campercare ( led bulbs 4 u) who advertise on this forum ( see banner at the top), are allowing customers the opportunity to park free of charge overnight ( mon- Fri) in their secure car park with electric HU, water and wifi available. 
They will inspect and advise any motorhome for the replacements at discount prices.

They are located 3mls jtn 11 M42, 30 minutes from the Peak District."._

Once you had been found out by the Moderators they discovered several of your previous posts where they had to go back and either remove or edit them because you had done the same thing on numerous occasions. At the time you posted them neither they (nor Nuke) were (like the members) aware of your commercial connection with the companies you were promoting.

Note I use the word "companies" in the plural!! 8O

The questions you asked in post No. 722554 are irrelevant and a smokescreen. :roll:

You tried it on and got found out! It's a clear breach of the rules, but not the end of the world, so why not accept it and carry on regardless? :? 

Incidentally, you did receive a PM. You just admitted it when you said, "As mentioned, _*reply *_to moderator enclosed", (again in post No. 722554.)

You asked for comments. This is the other side of the coin, which I feel the members have a right to know. 8O

Zebedee
For the Moderating Team


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## wakk44

By pretending to be an unconnected mhf member and then recommending his own company Ianhc has definitely broken the rules about advertising on here.

Not a huge problem in the whole scheme of things,but personally I don't like the subterfuge involved,seem a a bit sneaky to me.

At least JCM makes his intentions quite clear and is quite brazen and upfront about his regular plugs for his business,and the mods and ordinary members know who they are dealing with as he has his website in his signature and also his username is his company.

However by starting this thread and getting a response from the mods Ianhc has got what he wanted,more publicity for his company :roll:


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## sersol

DABurleigh said:


> Just a tip. I can't recall a single time when I have a reported a post that MODs haven't acted to uphold site rules. This includes MANY posts by JCM, but it's not a personal crusade, so if you feel as you do, click on the exclamation mark and give your reason. Simples!
> 
> Dave


Morning Dave,tbh JCM seems to calmed down some what now.
Although on each and every post he makes there is a considerable amount of advertising,not direct I agree but still too much IMHO.
I have NO doubt he has been very helpfull to many people,and in a round about way maybe thats what the OP was trying to do, just not as covert.
Just wondering if I should search back to see if all of the posts "open weekend here," and the like have been removed in the passed :wink:

Gary


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## DABurleigh

Gary,

You could do. Or you could plan your next trip. Just ask yourself which will make you happier 

Dave


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## sersol

Thanks Dave,level headed as always :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .


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## ChesterfieldHooligan

:lol: At the end of the day this site is a business :lol: 
Brian and Marion


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## teemyob

ianhc said:


> Recently the moderators decided to remove one of my posts, after asking twice for their reasoning and giving them ample opportunity to respond i have received NO such response. SO i think it is up to you the members of this forum to decide.
> 
> I already pay for advertising on here £900+ /year utilising the banner services at the top of the page.
> 
> The moderators decided that an article i posted that offered all members here ( and only listed on here) the opportunity to stay overnight mid week free of charge at our premises with secure parking, electric, water and wifi if they wish to avail any of our services.
> 
> I have purposely not mentioned the service offered to minimise the risk of the moderators removing this post.
> 
> If you would like to see the full listing please leave your comments and you decide.
> Regards
> Ian


Just send me the details next time and I will post it for you!


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## Motorhomersimpson

DABurleigh said:


> Just a tip. I can't recall a single time when I have a reported a post that MODs haven't acted to uphold site rules. This includes MANY posts by JCM, but it's not a personal crusade, so if you feel as you do, click on the exclamation mark and give your reason. Simples!
> 
> Dave


Thank you Dave, I have been trying to fit that in amongst this thread now you have succeeded where I failed 

If any member sees what they recoginise to be advert, please click the report button/tab.

The moderators see many adverts and remove them, sometimes even before members see them, but we're human (contrary to what some may say/think :lol: ) and the reports are a great to help us.

Many thanks from the mods to the many members who do help on a regular basis 

MHS...Rob


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## Motorhomersimpson

teemyob said:


> Just send me the details next time and I will post it for you!


Hmm that is a bad idea and one which may lead to problems, if a trader is found to be spamming the members via the pm system they are likely to be banned ... Do you want that on conscience :wink:


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## teemyob

Motorhomersimpson said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just send me the details next time and I will post it for you!
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm that is a bad idea and one which may lead to problems, if a trader is found to be spamming the members via the pm system they are likely to be banned ... Do you want that on conscience :wink:
Click to expand...

And I thought you were not supposed to make consecutive posts!


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## cronkle

I often wonder how many organisations there are out there who have staff pretending to be ordinary members who make pseudo-recommendations to enhance the reputation of their business.

I can imagine that many a large dealership who has had 'bad press' on here has got a senior member of their staff masquerading as a satisfied customer and so I am not surprised when this practice is identified and the perpetrator censured.

One of the reasons that I come on to this site is to get the views and recommendations of others on various products, ideas and services. In the case of such people as JCM, Snelly, Eddie Vanbitz and Swift their advertising is of little or no consequence to me. Few people would fall for their name dropping. I do, however, see very obvious satisfaction and help that they give to list members. These interactions are recommendations in their own right and are what I am swayed by.

It is important to me that I can trust the recommendations that I seen on this list and if they are given in an underhand way by a trader then the poster goes to the bottom of my own 'most reliable' list.


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## Chascass

It was clear cut advertising and against the rules, and because it was removed, he has probably received 10 times more exposure his original post would have received.
Funny old world. :wink: 

Charlie


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## erneboy

It seems to me a poster broke the rules, whether it was deliberate or accidental is not relevant. 

The rule breach was picked up. 

The mods acted. 

All is, once again, as it should be. 

There it should rest, no harm done. 

Comparisons are odious. Two wrongs etc. What people perceive others as having done is not relevant. If you have a problem with JCM or any other poster, report them. 

And that should be the end of the matter. 

Picking on the mods is daft, they do a difficult job to the best of their abilities. You are free to query their decisions. When I have queried a MODs decision I have done so by PM, in the first instance, as I considered the possibility that they may have had reasons for their actions which had not occurred to me. That course of action is courteous and prevents unnecessary public spats, Alan.


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## Telbell

> At least JCM makes his intentions quite clear and is quite brazen and upfront about his regular plugs for his business,and the mods and ordinary members know who they are dealing with as he has his website in his signature and also his username is his company.


How many "Yellow Cards" before a "Red" is produced. :wink:

The more someone is made aware of the Rules, the less the excuse for breaking them


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## Zebedee

Chascass said:


> It was clear cut advertising and against the rules, and because it was removed, he has probably received 10 times more exposure his original post would have received.
> Funny old world. :wink:
> 
> Charlie


Yes Charlie - we are aware of that aspect of course. 

However, we thought it more important that the membership should be fully appraised of the situation once we were certain that subterfuge was involved - and had been previously on a number of occasions.

As Cronkle indicates, members do receive a lot of help from certain trade members, but these all sneak in their little adverts in an open and honest way. :wink: :roll:

Still against the rules of course, but as Moderators _*we feel it is a major part of our responsibility to serve the best interests of the members as well as we can.*_ We therefore try to use discretion and sometimes turn a blind eye toward those traders when the advertising is not too blatant.

As Gerald has already said (and he speaks from experience as a very good ex-Moderator) it can often be a very difficult decision.

Do we remove the post and deny members some very sound advice, or do we stick rigidly to the rules like automatons?

We hope we strike the right balance most of the time, between conforming to the rules laid down by the forum owner, and serving the members' best interests at the same time.

It ain't always easy - believe me!!!!

Hope we can all move on from here.

Zebedee
Mods Team

Edited for clarity.


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## eddievanbitz

It is a difficult balance. 

I post as eddievanbitz as I don't want any ambiguity. If some one asks which alarm should I buy, I wouldn't post and say Strikeback. If someone asked a question in a post, I would reply. If someone posted inaccuracies about one of our products I would try to redress the situation.

If I don't post as eddievanbitz, then the information or assistance that I offer may not be taken or trusted.

I genuinely enjoy using motorhome facts, and I read far more than I contribute.

I know for a fact that Nuke has refunded advertisers money in the past when Companies have demanded special treatment or posts moderated or removed. 

I think that if the site owner is prepared to lose money to keep the site independent, then his rules should be followed and if breached, action should be taken.

I would hate to see the site dominated by people flogging their wares, writing and acting in the third party "I used this firm and they were brilliant and soooo cheap" you can call me, Oops, I mean them on 07772727872827 etc

I think Nuke allowing trade members is a good thing for the site (members do get a lot of free advice and help from the trade members here) Also asking us to be transparent was an excellent decision.

The moderators do an excellent job keeping everything (and everybody) in line, but I wouldn't advise a public debate if a post got pulled for being written in the third party to be honest :lol: 

Eddie


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## ingram

Chascass said:


> It was clear cut advertising and against the rules, and because it was removed, he has probably received 10 times more exposure his original post would have received.
> Funny old world. :wink:
> 
> Charlie


Whereas that is true, for me at least, and obviously some others, the exposure is negative and this 'exposure' has caused me to note that this is now not a company that I wish to deal with. It has had the same effect as 'disparagement' of one company by another.

" You don't want to go to Joe Blogs, his stuff is rubbish." O.K, thanks, but now I won't be coming to you either!. 

Plenty of other places to get led bulbs from .................. I've had good service and good prices from both JM Goods and Ultraleds.

( edited for correction to supplier name )

Harvey


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## jam35007

erm very clever !!!!


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## Motorhomersimpson

teemyob said:


> And I thought you were not supposed to make consecutive posts!


Well you thought wrong! I have no idea what you are on about to be honest :lol: :lol:

MHS...Rob


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## Pudsey_Bear

Seems all a bit odd to me, there are a few on here who blatantly offer services through there own posts, some even have their company name as a user name.

If I as a paying advertiser I could not mention my own company in my own post occasionally, (if I don't pay that is of course a horse of a different colour) I think I'd be more than a little peed off, that's, not to say I should be allowed to mention my own company in every other post though (not suggesting anyone has) but to be penalised for offering overnight accommodation for gratis just to change a couple of bulbs, I don't see that as anything but a good thing, and just helping a few of us out should we need to have it done but don't know how.

Bottoms and up em sometimes spring to mind.

Right where's that naughty step been moved to.

Kev


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## nukeadmin

i don't think the offer itself is an issue so much as the way it was put across Kev.

We do have a LOT of members here on MHF who are actually linked to motorhome industry companies, some of them in the past have mistakenly thought they could posts which indicated they were in fact happy customers of said company. Where identified these are usually removed and the poster PMd to alert them.

It is a big problem on all social media nowadays and big business for large companies. I have heard told of some big brands (non mh industry) that pay Indian workers to build up profiles on large forums frequented by younger generation and to "big up" the brand etc. Not so much a problem for us here on MHF though


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## erneboy

Kev-n-Liz, the problem began because the OP did not own up straight away that he was connected with the company. He posted as though he was a disinterested party, Alan.


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## Zebedee

erneboy said:


> Kev-n-Liz, the problem began because the OP did not own up straight away that he was connected with the company. He posted as though he was a disinterested party, Alan.


Quite correct Alan, and he didn't do it just the once. 8O

He did it a number of times and for more than one company in which he has an interest!

Members need to know that they can rely on recommendations being genuine. 

These were found to be very disingenuous, so hence the action. :?

As I said before though, that was yesterday. Clean slate today. 

Zeb


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## Pudsey_Bear

I took it at face value, as I do most things, maybe not the best thing to do these days, but to do otherwise is to distrust everyone, which is not a healthy way to live your life.

I give everyone a first and sometimes a second chance, any more would be unwise.

It seems to be that businesses are becoming less and less business like and becoming scammers in one way or another.

As for Nukes comment " to "big up" the brand etc. Not so much a problem for us here on MHF though ", it's a shame that we don't have a couple of brands to big up, but it seems to be that even the previous "quality" manufacturers are simply riding on a rep they sometimes no longer deserve, "Caveat emptor" is very much a reality these days, especially on Motorhomes, but not restricted to just those.

Kev


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## Rainbow-Chasers

I disagree with you, Gaspode (at my peril! lol!) as regards to traders 'Advertising' in their user names etc. I feel it is far worse that traders hide and mislead users into thinking that they are private motor homers when they are not. 

I think all traders should be openly visable and honest about their operations - it also makes it far easier for the moderator to do his/her job, rather than have to research the postere to find out if they are unregistered trade first!

It also helps the user define what is an honest review, and what is, to those aware of the trader, a downright press release! lol! These often fall through the net as the mods do not know they are traders!

Open, honest and nothing to hide! If you look at the traders here that offer advice and help, and are often thanked for such and mentioned in the company reports section, are all openly traders and hide nothing. Everyone knows where they stand!

In my opinion, that is the way it should be!


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## PlanetGen

I agree with Rainbow, Traders should be open. I also think you shouldnt need to advertise on here, people will know what you do and will naturally come to you if they know you can help. 
Simon


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## geraldandannie

PlanetGen said:


> I agree with Rainbow, Traders should be open. I also think you shouldnt need to advertise on here, people will know what you do and will naturally come to you if they know you can help.


Absolutely.

Any overt or covert advertising would have the opposite effect on me :evil:

Gerald


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## gromett

I am sorry to say but the OP has shot himself in the foot as far as I am concerned. If he had done it under the company name instead of an apparently third party I wouldn't have had a problem personally. But if he is going to be devious and underhanded (as I see it) publicly then god knows what he would be like to deal with privately. The trust has gone before it was even given chance to develop.

If a company wants to encourage me to buy from them the best way is for them to post under their own name. Look for questions in their field and answer them honestly and as helpfully as possible but without advertising their own services. Be as altruistic as possible even if it means recommending a competitors product/service if it is better suited to the poster. What this will do is generate a good reputation which is worth more than any amount of paid for advertising.

As an example, I approached a company to buy 4 x 200AH batteries of a particular make which I knew they sold. They asked me a few questions and told me that another manufacturers battery would be better but they don't stock them. They gave me another suppliers number from whom I purchased said batteries. Since then that supplier has had a lot of business off me more than offsetting the lost sale of a £1000 of batteries. And I will keep going back to them.....

I think the Mods did exactly the right thing in this situation (yet again) good job guys.

Anyway just my view.

Karl


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## chasper

PlanetGen said:


> I agree with Rainbow, Traders should be open. I also think you shouldnt need to advertise on here, people will know what you do and will naturally come to you if they know you can help.
> Simon


 I have no truck with Simon but showing a flashing image of a generator and solar panel might be construde as advertising or am i wrong? Chasper.


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## gaspode

Rainbow-Chasers said:


> I disagree with you, Gaspode (at my peril! lol!) as regards to traders 'Advertising' in their user names etc. I feel it is far worse that traders hide and mislead users into thinking that they are private motor homers when they are not.


I'm not quite sure where that one has come from, in fact the point you make is precisely the one I was trying to make. :? Maybe my late night wording was somewhat ambiguous :?:

I think that any trader posing as a customer or third party to endorse a product is not only breaking rules but abusing his place of trust within the community. I'm reading lots of complaints about JCM but he at least he wears his loyalty on his sleeve (or avatar), OK, he goes a tad too far occasionally but the moderators try to balance his commercial pressure against the undoubted good advice and assistance he offers. Not easy sometimes but I think we get it right most of the time.

I personally believe that all traders should be compelled to use their company name as a username, that way at least the members know who they're dealing with. As I said, that's a personal view, not to be confused with the collective views of the staff.


----------



## Jezport

eddievanbitz said:


> It is a difficult balance.
> 
> I post as eddievanbitz as I don't want any ambiguity. If some one asks which alarm should I buy, I wouldn't post and say Strikeback. If someone asked a question in a post, I would reply. If someone posted inaccuracies about one of our products I would try to redress the situation.
> 
> If I don't post as eddievanbitz, then the information or assistance that I offer may not be taken or trusted.
> 
> I genuinely enjoy using motorhome facts, and I read far more than I contribute.
> 
> I know for a fact that Nuke has refunded advertisers money in the past when Companies have demanded special treatment or posts moderated or removed.
> 
> I think that if the site owner is prepared to lose money to keep the site independent, then his rules should be followed and if breached, action should be taken.
> 
> I would hate to see the site dominated by people flogging their wares, writing and acting in the third party "I used this firm and they were brilliant and soooo cheap" you can call me, Oops, I mean them on 07772727872827 etc
> 
> I think Nuke allowing trade members is a good thing for the site (members do get a lot of free advice and help from the trade members here) Also asking us to be transparent was an excellent decision.
> 
> The moderators do an excellent job keeping everything (and everybody) in line, but I wouldn't advise a public debate if a post got pulled for being written in the third party to be honest :lol:
> 
> Eddie


I would agree with this also, as I also reply to posts which are to do with Valeting, and it is sometimes hard for me to reply with help without looking like I am offering my services.

It is also hard for the moderators sometimes, but I have to say that they have been fair with me.


----------



## Rainbow-Chasers

gaspode said:


> Rainbow-Chasers said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with you, Gaspode (at my peril! lol!) as regards to traders 'Advertising' in their user names etc. I feel it is far worse that traders hide and mislead users into thinking that they are private motor homers when they are not.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not quite sure where that one has come from, in fact the point you make is precisely the one I was rying to make. :? Maybe my late night wording was somewhat ambiguous :?:
> 
> I think that any trader posinig as a customer or third party to endorse a product is not only breaking rules but abusing his place of trust within the community. I'm reading lots of complaints about JCM but he at least wears his loyalty on his sleeve (or avatar), OK, he goes a tad too far occasionally but the moderators try to balance his commercial pressure against the undoubted good advice and assistance he offers. Not easy sometimes but I think we get it right most of the time.
> 
> I personally believe that all traders should be compelled to use their company name as a username, that way at least the members know who they're dealing with. As I said, that's a personal view, not to be confused with the collective views of the staff.
Click to expand...

I have actually just re-read the previous post. It reads different ways, and I think I took it in a way it was not necessarily intended - apologies. We are singing from the same songsheet after all! (and there was me thinking you were going to tear my ears off!! lol!)

But, let's get this trader thing sorted - the site is having adjustments made soon, or currently. With this in mind, I think we should push forward a motion to make it compulsory for trade declaration to be made.

It would be beneficial to the site, moderators and more importantly readers that may be mislead. There is a thin line between expressing an experience and passing tips to others, and 'creating desire' for someone to use your product/service.

I wish not to point fingers, but there are some posts that have never been moderated due to the poster appearing to be a private user, but they do lean more to the 'creating desire' side, that sharing an experience. I think the protective cloak of deceit should be removed for a more open and honest forum!


----------



## gaspode

Rainbow-Chasers said:


> I think we should push forward a motion to make it compulsory for trade declaration to be made.


I totally agree with that proposal and have said so several times to Nuke.

If you look at No.7 in the site rules for traders:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/forums-rules.html#16
it reads:
_7. MHF would prefer companies to be public with their usernames i.e. if a company is called "MHF" then that should be their username and not "Steve1" or other similar anonymous type usernames. _

So we encourage this already, maybe we should make it compulsory, but there are practical considerations such as what about the case when a member works for a trader but isn't a principal? It's also sometimes very hard to establish a link between a member and a commercial interest when we suspect that a member is being less than honest.

Perhaps a way forward would be to do as you do yourself and make a declaration within the signature section?


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

gaspode said:


> I'm reading lots of complaints about JCM but he at least wears his loyalty on his sleeve (or avatar), OK, he goes a tad too far occasionally but the moderators try to balance his commercial pressure against the undoubted good advice and assistance he offers. Not easy sometimes but I think we get it right most of the time.
> 
> I personally believe that all traders should be compelled to use their company name as a username, that way at least the members know who they're dealing with. As I said, that's a personal view, not to be confused with the collective views of the staff.


I was going to refrain from commenting on these posts but as my name seems to be coming up time and time again I really have no choice.

Traders hiding behind pseudonyms really is not on, another forum I frequent, a trader has to declare his interest and wear the Trader T shirt as I call it.

As far as I am concerned I only respond where I feel that my knowledge or my staffs knowledge can be of assistance.

I get extremely annoyed when I advise a poster to call my staff back at base for FREE technical advice or assistance which costs me money in lost staff time and the usual griping and whinging from certain members on here starts.

There is no commercial advantage to me in doing that especially when the poster is some 200 miles away and will never visit us and spend money.

The reason for advising them to do that is I am not at the dealership that much these days and I do not know all the answers and it is far better to get the infomation direct from the horses mouth than third hand.

It has been said many time that members wished more people from the trade were active on Facts, with this sort of attitude that is going on, no one will bother as they get treated as though they were the enemy and frankly I have far better things to do with my time than to be treated like that.

Strange with all these complaints I got voted Motorhome Dealer of the year on Facts!

Peter


----------



## ICDSUN

Hi

A post that appears to be a recommendation from a member for any product is generally welcomed by all, to attempt to pass such off by a trader is a very poor business practice.

Your comment that you are paying for your advertising is not relevant to the way the original post was made, it is your choice to advertise, a target of 40000 + people who have or are considering purchasing a leisure vehicle, £900 PA is extremely cheap.

Your reputation and integrity as a business is hard earned, a simple post such as the one you originally placed has probably done your business more harm albeit you have had a lot of exposure on here, unfortunately not in the way you would have hoped for.

One thing we do practice in our business is the ability to apologise when a mistake is made, trying to justify any other action or lay blame on others for that mistake just increases the potential for actual and peripheral damage.

Chris


----------



## eddievanbitz

Right so we are clear then no self publicity!

Just to remind you all that our sale starts on 01/04/10 and we have up to 50% off anything not in stock, 75% off things that we never have stocked and 80% off things that we discontinued five years before :lol:

But don't tell the moderators :-$


----------



## PlanetGen

chasper said:


> PlanetGen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with Rainbow, Traders should be open. I also think you shouldnt need to advertise on here, people will know what you do and will naturally come to you if they know you can help.
> Simon
> 
> 
> 
> I have no truck with Simon but showing a flashing image of a generator and solar panel might be construde as advertising or am i wrong? Chasper.
Click to expand...

Hi Chasper, yes my Avatar does. It also links me with Generators and Solar Panels. I am being honest and people know from the start I am a trader not trying to be someone I am not. 
That said, I feel it is very minor compared to some of the advertisements that have been on here. For instance I have never pretended to be someone else on here.
I would never try direct sales on a forum as I respect the rules. There is also a rule I believe that states we have to use company names as traders?
Had any of the Mods not liked my Avatar then I would remove it yes, but I dont think it causes offence to anyone.
It also serves another purpose. When at shows or rallies, people often come to me from this site with problems - e.g my Generator wont start so I can help them usually for free. Had they not known who I was then it could cost them a lot of money. If I cant help I put them in touch with someone that can.
I believe advertising should be used in a positive way, I try not to ram my views down peoples throats, in the beginning yes I did it once or twice but I had never been a member of any sort of forum before and still had to learn the etiquette.
I have also benefited from advertising at the Global rally, again this is people asking me to help with power because they knew who I was. The same with the Marquee (Beer Tent!)
I have found now that this forum I very rarely talk about work. I have made some great friends with lots of people on here.
I also think as long as you promote your self in the right way then no one should have a problem, but by being dis honest then you will get people's backs up.
I would be interested to get some more thoughts on this? It is an interesting topic for Traders.
Simon


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

eddievanbitz said:


> Right so we are clear then no self publicity!
> 
> Just to remind you all that our sale starts on 01/04/10 and we have up to 50% off anything not in stock, 75% off things that we never have stocked and 80% off things that we discontinued five years before :lol:
> 
> But don't tell the moderators :-$


Edward,

You forgot to mention the FREE choccie drinks and overnight stays, your slipping!

Peter


----------



## wakk44

When will the devious traders that are hiding behind pseudonyms realise that the majority of members can see straight through their modus operandi.

When I see a gushing post or a hearty recommendation,a quick check on their profile and recent posts will usually tell me what I want to know.

If they have a preponderance for trying to influence members with posts then it is quite obvious what they are up to.

If it is a relatively new member that joins and then wholeheartedly praises something then my suspicions are raised.Of course there are exceptions but that is generally the case.

I am much more likely to buy off a trader who comes on here and gives honest friendly advice using their own company name.


----------



## eddievanbitz

If you stop and think about this, the internet is unique!

We are given our names before we realise any significance of our names, we rarely get much choice in the matter.

On the internet we get to choose the persona we wish to project! 

Some use that of a school girl to lure other schoolgirls to talk to them! I suspect that some of the schoolgirls are actually schoolgirls, I also wonder how many are other sad men pretending to be schoolgirls :signeek: 

However, way back in times gone by we went took the name of our trade, often the trade being that of the father. It wasn't unknown to take the name of your master if apprenticed. 

So we got names like Cooper, Fletcher, Weaver, Fuller, Butcher,Constable and many more

So adopting a name that portrays what we do to people that do not know us, is hardly new.

No newer than people finding way to deceive either I guess.

Eddie


----------



## Rainbow-Chasers

JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> gaspode said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm reading lots of complaints about JCM but he at least wears his loyalty on his sleeve (or avatar), OK, he goes a tad too far occasionally but the moderators try to balance his commercial pressure against the undoubted good advice and assistance he offers. Not easy sometimes but I think we get it right most of the time.
> 
> I personally believe that all traders should be compelled to use their company name as a username, that way at least the members know who they're dealing with. As I said, that's a personal view, not to be confused with the collective views of the staff.
> 
> 
> 
> I was going to refrain from commenting on these posts but as my name seems to be coming up time and time again I really have no choice.
> 
> Traders hiding behind pseudonyms really is not on, another forum I frequent, a trader has to declare his interest and wear the Trader T shirt as I call it.
> 
> As far as I am concerned I only respond where I feel that my knowledge or my staffs knowledge can be of assistance.
> 
> I get extremely annoyed when I advise a poster to call my staff back at base for FREE technical advice or assistance which costs me money in lost staff time and the usual griping and whinging from certain members on here starts.
> 
> There is no commercial advantage to me in doing that especially when the poster is some 200 miles away and will never visit us and spend money.
> 
> The reason for advising them to do that is I am not at the dealership that much these days and I do not know all the answers and it is far better to get the infomation direct from the horses mouth than third hand.
> 
> It has been said many time that members wished more people from the trade were active on Facts, with this sort of attitude that is going on, no one will bother as they get treated as though they were the enemy and frankly I have far better things to do with my time than to be treated like that.
> 
> Strange with all these complaints I got voted Motorhome Dealer of the year on Facts!
> 
> Peter
Click to expand...

I agree with you Peter, users get alot of help from you and you are well praised for it - you are also in our little group of 'honest traders' whom say what they do on the tin!

You will find that those who complain or attack you are the traders in the same business who are hiding behind, and actively stating that they are NOT trade!

The whole reason I have the 'Don't PM Me' tag on the foot of my posts, was due to a trader passing off as a user using the PM feature to ask if I would like to hire his motorhome! 
Upon advising him that his motorhome was not in demand, As a user, it is fair enough advice to save them damage or weeks of not being out on hire.
But as a trader, in the same business,he was incensed! He went on a deflamatory rampage. Lol! I was left with complaints to mods as he had accused me of advertising - he contacted me!!- and had to justify myself beyond beleif as I was attacked in quite an unreasonable manner.

This could have been avoided if everyone was honest, rather than having those who like to hide away and snipe at traders who are honest. After all, many of us are so far away from those asking for help, we are hardly 'competition' - and if those traders we honest, then they would probably be recommended anyway if anyone knew who they were - not that I would recommend anyone that deceitful, mind!

I VERY nearly cancelled my membership, as I come on here socially and not to sell anything - i will give advice by all means, and I hope that advice has been helpful to some. But we do put ourselves in the firing line by being open and honest.


----------



## clianthus

wakk44 said:


> When will the devious traders that are hiding behind pseudonyms realise that the majority of members can see straight through their modus operandi.
> 
> I am much more likely to buy off a trader who comes on here and gives honest friendly advice using their own company name.


Your statement is exactly my feeling on this matter.

I can think of nothing more likely to stop me buying from a trader than them coming onto a forum and pretending to be a satisfied customer. It is completely dishonest!

My first thought would be, have they not got any genuine satisfied customers?

I would much rather deal with someone who is up front and honest. Alright they may be promoting their own business, who wouldn't, but at least you know that from the start and take it into account when deciding to deal with them.

You can't do that when they are promoting a business but not telling you it's their business.


----------



## geraldandannie

eddievanbitz said:


> Just to remind you all that our sale starts on 01/04/10 and we have up to 50% off anything not in stock, 75% off things that we never have stocked and 80% off things that we discontinued five years before


Ooo, I can't wait. I want to buy a whole bunch of things I don't need, that won't work, and that can't be returned or sold on, but that someone on an internet forum advised me to buy. I smell a bargain!

I only wish I had something to sell, and then I could join in the "As a trader in motorhome accessories (nudge nudge, wink wink) I think it's quite wrong to advertise on the forums if you're a trader (like me)"

Keep it up, Eddie. I laugh at your posts often. Ever thought of selling humourous posts? We could do with a few :wink:

Gerald


----------



## clodhopper2006

No income tax, no V.A.T.
No money back, no guarantee,
Black or white, rich or broke,
We’ll cut prices at a stroke.
God bless Hooky Street,
Viva Hooky Street,
Long live Hooky Street,
C’est magnifique, Hooky Street,
Magnifique, Hooky Street,
Hooky Street — Hooky Street — Hooky Street

:lol:


----------



## nukeadmin

> I think we should push forward a motion to make it compulsory for trade declaration to be made.


How could we enforce it ?
How would we know ?
atm the mods and I use a variety of online built in tools and good old fashioned cynicism to sniff out offenders and non offenders to tag them as Traders.

Well as the mods know (and ex mods  ) mods and myself actually see more detailed information that normal members and all known business members have been added to a special forum group called "Traders" and if known their business name has been entered also.

i.e. for Eddievanbitz we see

eddievanbitz
Trade Member
Vanbitz

and so on,

the biggest issue for me of publicly displaying these tags is that it may also create trust in a members review of a business / service post who aren't tagged but in fact are business members 

We would also have to be very particular about tagging in cases where we might mistakenly tag a member who isn't related to the company. At present this doesn't make much of an issue as only mods and I can see the tags

At this very moment in time we have 300 traders tagged on MHF !!



> There is no commercial advantage to me in doing that especially when the poster is some 200 miles away and will never visit us and spend money.


Quite so Peter, but it does highlight your company name in the forums which has an advertising commercial advantage lol 



> it is your choice to advertise, a target of 40000 + people who have or are considering purchasing a leisure vehicle, £900 PA is extremely cheap.


well its actually a target of 140,000 unique visitors per month which equates to >1.5 million per annum  and I like your train of thought  perhaps I should charge more lol


----------



## nickit

well its actually a target of 140,000 unique visitors per month which equates to >1.5 million per annum and I like your train of thought perhaps I should charge more lol 




140,000 listeners on local radio would cost over 3k per month and it's less targeted. 
I'll work for 10%!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## locovan

*I think all traders should be openly visable and honest about their operations - it also makes it far easier for the moderator to do his/her job, rather than have to research the postere to find out if they are unregistered trade first! *

Oh well Rainbowchaser I will come clean.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I work in Amsterdam :wink: :wink: :wink:


----------



## sersol

"I get extremely annoyed when I advise a poster to call my staff back at base for FREE technical advice or assistance which costs me money in lost staff time and the usual griping and whinging from certain members on here starts." 

Peter, I am not griping or whinging,my comments were not ment to offend you. I only stated what had happened in the passed,I also commented that you had not posted (as you used to) for a while........well done :wink: .I would only like to see a level playing field.
I also agreed that you had been very helpful to a number of members.
As for MHF dealer of the year well done,I'm not sure who else was in running.
I was unaware the OP had been covert in thier first post,I still believe that the forum section on the site should be a NO go area for ads,including avatars and web details.


----------



## Rainbow-Chasers

nukeadmin said:


> I think we should push forward a motion to make it compulsory for trade declaration to be made.
> 
> 
> 
> How could we enforce it ?
> How would we know ?
> atm the mods and I use a variety of online built in tools and good old fashioned cynicism to sniff out offenders and non offenders to tag them as Traders.
> 
> Well as the mods know (and ex mods  ) mods and myself actually see more detailed information that normal members and all known business members have been added to a special forum group called "Traders" and if known their business name has been entered also.
> 
> i.e. for Eddievanbitz we see
> 
> eddievanbitz
> Trade Member
> Vanbitz
> 
> and so on,
> 
> the biggest issue for me of publicly displaying these tags is that it may also create trust in a members review of a business / service post who aren't tagged but in fact are business members
> 
> We would also have to be very particular about tagging in cases where we might mistakenly tag a member who isn't related to the company. At present this doesn't make much of an issue as only mods and I can see the tags
> 
> At this very moment in time we have 300 traders tagged on MHF !!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no commercial advantage to me in doing that especially when the poster is some 200 miles away and will never visit us and spend money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Quite so Peter, but it does highlight your company name in the forums which has an advertising commercial advantage lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is your choice to advertise, a target of 40000 + people who have or are considering purchasing a leisure vehicle, £900 PA is extremely cheap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> well its actually a target of 140,000 unique visitors per month which equates to >1.5 million per annum  and I like your train of thought  perhaps I should charge more lol
Click to expand...

I can appreciate the difficulties invloved - it isn't easy, what we need is a system that stops or makes it difficult with minimum time/cost expenditure in tracing - after all, site fees will rise if mods/admin have to spend days tracing a trader, when if they were honest from the start it would be far simpler to locate and manage.

As regards to enforcement, I am sure mods whom post regularly anyway can be advised/trained in how to spot the hidden trader - they always slip up at some point - maybe use other traders knowledge to have a 'flag' option, where if they are suspicious, they can flag a post for a mod to check for trader status.

As regards to knowing, I think on initial sign up, there should be a carrot of some kind that would be beneficial to the trader to confess his true status. Be that a 'Meet the Trader' type interview, or a plug of some kind in the next newsletter. It would be a one time advertising opportunity to reach a large database for free - if only once, would be worthwhile carrot.


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

At the end of the day does it really matter if a trader offers his services or a product in *DIRECT* response to a direct question?

Some one wants a certain type of generator.......

Some one wants a certain sat dish installation and Snelly or Eddievanbitz answers

Some one has a particular warranty problem with a Swift product and I answer or an accessory.

Someone needs a tow bar installation........

etc etc

Yes a Trader just posting, Special Offer this week only without a prompt, no

Facts is a collection of like minded people following a certain lifestyle and invariably are looking for help and the trade members are the most likely the ones to be able to assist within reason.

Peter


----------



## chrisgreen

well there you go.
iv never clicked on the add's above,but i have now.
i need some LED lamps so an order will be on its way.


cheers chris


----------



## Rainbow-Chasers

JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> At the end of the day does it really matter if a trader offers his services or a product in *DIRECT* response to a direct question?
> 
> Some one wants a certain type of generator.......
> 
> Some one wants a certain sat dish installation and Snelly or Eddievanbitz answers
> 
> Some one has a particular warranty problem with a Swift product and I answer or an accessory.
> 
> Someone needs a tow bar installation........
> 
> etc etc
> 
> Yes a Trader just posting, Special Offer this week only without a prompt, no
> 
> Facts is a collection of like minded people following a certain lifestyle and invariably are looking for help and the trade members are the most likely the ones to be able to assist within reason.
> 
> Peter


I don't think there is harm when a question is asked. As long as, like you say, there is no hard sell or unprompted spamming with offers etc.

If it aids the OP in getting an honest answer, how about an add-on for the trade section /button linking to a PM where the users can 'Ask the Trader?' That way no direct approach is made by the trader and it cannot be seen as blatant advertising or using the site for sales - even if this option is only open for those whom advertise through the forum!


----------



## CatherineandSteve

JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> eddievanbitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right so we are clear then no self publicity!
> 
> Just to remind you all that our sale starts on 01/04/10 and we have up to 50% off anything not in stock, 75% off things that we never have stocked and 80% off things that we discontinued five years before :lol:
> 
> But don't tell the moderators :-$
> 
> 
> 
> Edward,
> 
> You forgot to mention the FREE choccie drinks and overnight stays, your slipping!
> 
> Peter
Click to expand...

Hi Peter,

Edward forgot to mention the discounted cider that they do  but don,t tell anyone else :wink: that can be our little secret :lol:

Cheers Steve


----------



## Bubblehead

Hi
I don't have any issues with they way the OP was dealt with by the mods, they did the right thing for the right reasons. However, could we have an area where the 300 plus traders on MHF could post special offers available to MHF users. This is where the OP could have posted his offer to have members stay overnight for free and have assistance with changing their bulbs, or this could have been done via the mods

I'm sure that offers of this type would be of benefit to all members, much the same as there are many sites that post the top ten deals, 2 for 1 etc.

Andy

PS: Eddie could do 2 for 1 on his 80% off things hes never sold - that's 160% off nothing - what a great deal :lol: 

Then again, would that mean we all owe him 60% of everything we have :?:


----------



## nukeadmin

we already have an Editorial section for that sort of thing Andy
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Editorial

the other problem that myself and the mods have mulled over, is "ask the trader" type sections sound ok in principal but then what stops a trader creating a new account or getting a friend to create an account and ask themselves a question  ?

Some traders would use this type of facility to excess methinks unless some form of safeguard were put in place

I think motorhomefacts is actually quite placid in its approach to Traders and do not simply ban any trader instantly who steps over the line, as a trader myself i appreciate that fellow traders want to promote themselves, unfortunately without any controls in place this can quickly turn chaotic with traders climbing over each other to grab potential clients from the forums, we have come close to this on a few posts already here on MHF.


----------



## Bubblehead

Hi Nuke

That's sort of the thing I had in mind, but its not exactly well used  I assume that the majority of users including traders don't know it exists (especially me)  

I go on a site called UK hot deals every now and then, a similar thing (technical term) would enable members to post about special offers etc. This would help us all

Andy


----------



## ingram

jam35007 said:


> erm very clever !!!!


I assume that this relates in some way to my post which was immediately before yours, however what exactly is meant by it and to what exactly it refers is incomprehensible to me and probably to others also. Would you care to elucidate please?

Harvey


----------



## sallytrafic

Rainbow-Chasers said:


> JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the end of the day does it really matter if a trader offers his services or a product in *DIRECT* response to a direct question?
> 
> Some one wants a certain type of generator.......
> 
> Some one wants a certain sat dish installation and Snelly or Eddievanbitz answers
> 
> Some one has a particular warranty problem with a Swift product and I answer or an accessory.
> 
> Someone needs a tow bar installation........
> 
> etc etc
> 
> Yes a Trader just posting, Special Offer this week only without a prompt, no
> 
> Facts is a collection of like minded people following a certain lifestyle and invariably are looking for help and the trade members are the most likely the ones to be able to assist within reason.
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think there is harm when a question is asked. As long as, like you say, there is no hard sell or unprompted spamming with offers etc.
> 
> If it aids the OP in getting an honest answer, how about an add-on for the trade section /button linking to a PM where the users can 'Ask the Trader?' That way no direct approach is made by the trader and it cannot be seen as blatant advertising or using the site for sales - even if this option is only open for those whom advertise through the forum!
Click to expand...

I tend to disagree, for the person asking the question a trader replying that you can buy that from me is just answering the question but he is simultaneously advertising to the rest of us.


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

sallytrafic said:


> I tend to disagree, for the person asking the question a trader replying that you can buy that from me is just answering the question but he is simultaneously advertising to the rest of us.


Your being pedantic, the rest of you are highly unlikely to want one otherwise you would have asked before.

Peter


----------



## Rainbow-Chasers

nukeadmin said:


> we already have an Editorial section for that sort of thing Andy
> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Editorial
> 
> the other problem that myself and the mods have mulled over, is "ask the trader" type sections sound ok in principal but then what stops a trader creating a new account or getting a friend to create an account and ask themselves a question  ?
> 
> Some traders would use this type of facility to excess methinks unless some form of safeguard were put in place
> 
> I think motorhomefacts is actually quite placid in its approach to Traders and do not simply ban any trader instantly who steps over the line, as a trader myself i appreciate that fellow traders want to promote themselves, unfortunately without any controls in place this can quickly turn chaotic with traders climbing over each other to grab potential clients from the forums, we have come close to this on a few posts already here on MHF.


That's easily cured - and 'ask the trader' button. The question is put to the trader via PM - no point in PMing yourself as no one else would know!


----------



## EuropeanCampers

It never fails to amaze me what some people in life get so hot under the collar about. Far too much time on their hands.


----------



## Rapide561

*LED*

Hi

The OP has premises about 200 yards from where I am sitting and this thread has won him some business! I had never clicked on the link before!

Russell


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

My username sugests what i do for a living but gives no further info. telephone number or adress
I have added to my signature what I do.
My profile has always had Chemical retailer listed.

Am I ok.


Dave p


----------



## andyman

10 pages of absolutly nothing to do with Motor Homes. 
Has this forum lost it's way????


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

Not if you read them all andy.

I find it amusing to see the different points of view in a debate.

Dave p


----------



## chapter

many years ago when the rules for the site where written, in the days before you had to pay and there were only K3+ members the rules of the site fine for that time BUT i think its time to revise them i would propose that ALL members that are motorhome related dealers or persons that are in some way connected to them must disclose this and it should indicate this on the avatar 
chapter


----------



## Zebedee

andyman said:


> 10 pages of absolutly nothing to do with Motor Homes.
> Has this forum lost it's way????


Wouldn't it be hellish boring if the forum was *absolutely everything* to do with motorhomes . . . and about nothing else, as you seem to be suggesting? :roll:

The membership would drop overnight from 40,000 lively and interesting members, to 400 boring old farts who can talk about nothing else _*but *_motorhomes. 8O

_(Please note that I have cast no aspersions in your direction with this general, but probably very accurate observation. :? )_

Dave


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

:lol: :lol: :lol: 
Dave p
Looking into suplying laughing gas.


----------



## clodhopper2006

suprised it's not in the Members Bar though.


----------



## DABurleigh

Well, as we are discussing how things SHOULD be done on MHF, FWIW here's my view. It's been the same for years; my work involves understanding and working around conflicts of interest in the provision of advice. 

The best form of advice is both informed and impartial. The problem is this doesn't grow on trees. Most informed advice is usually partial and most impartial advice is usually relatively uninformed. So, you should identify and value those who give informed impartial advice, but you can't rely on it being there. 

Therefore you need to top this up where you can. Impartial but uninformed advice is useless. Monkeys can give you this. Or roll a die. However, informed but partial advice IS useful, PROVIDED YOU UNDERSTAND THE DEGREE OF PARTIALITY. So, someone who sells product A, but not competing products B and C, is very valuable to provide advice about A, but has a conflict of interest in advising on purchasing decisions involving the relative merits of A, B and C. But you would be pretty stupid to deny yourself that person's understanding of A!

So, for MHF, if I had my way, I'd want all traders of motorhome related products to be clearly marked as such in their avatar/username area, along with their MH company name(s) so I can separately establish what they sell and what they don't. Frankly the most surprising thing for me in this thread is nuke's revelation that there are 300 MH traders posting on here!!!!

If this were done, would I object to advertising in the forums? Not at all, PROVIDED it was relevant to an OP, not gratuitous promotion (which I find wearing and insulting) and not threads STARTED by a trader to advertise. 

The problem with this would be that nuke's sale of advertising space MIGHT fall. My recommendation for this would be for nuke just to try it for a few months and see! I actually think traders would find the two "advertising modes" complementary and would probably NOT give up the banner adverts.

Now to what I don't like:
1) I don't like subterfuge and being conned. That's also an insult. 
2) I don't like traders selling a product yet talking bull**** about it simply because they do not understand its technicalities, but they do so because in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king so they think they can get away with it. If you sell it, for heavens sake take time out to understand it or leave it to people who do.
3) Finally I don't like traders privately offering a good price but only if you post good things about the product or service to advertise on their behalf. Yes, of course I know it goes on because some say it to me until they learn that I'm going to call it as I see it, whether it's the best thing since sliced bread or total rubbish. That's because principles and integrity matter a lot to me. Regrettably, however, I am at a loss as to how to prevent this. But some posts from satisfied customers so make me want to stick my fingers down my throat I do wonder what deal was struck.

Dave


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

Now this is what I call advertising! 

Do you think I have struck lucky tonight?

My Messenger opened up and look at the convo, being a perfect gentleman I had to 'Hi' back and look at what followed!

Good job I was in my office where the wife doesnt come in often!!! :roll:

Ellen says:
hi
Ellen says:
hi
masterman says:
and
Ellen says:
hi how are you today?
masterman says:
still alive just
Ellen says:
my name is paris I'm doing great today I'm 21 yrs old how old are you?
masterman says:
old enough
Ellen says:
listen hun, I am just about to start my webcam show with jen, come chat me there in my chat room? We can cyber, I will get naked if u do..lol!
masterman says:
wow
Ellen says:
I can show u how to watch free if u promise not to tell anyone else how to do it???PLEASE 
masterman says:
heard that b4
Ellen says:
well since its free the law that u gotta be 18 (nudity involved), u have to sign up with a credit card for age verification! BUT .. Once you are inside, just clikc on "Webcams" let me know what name you use to sign in with so I know it is you babe! http://www.localpartyground.com/alina2 fill out the bottom of the page then fill out the next page as well and u can see me naked.


----------



## Kelcat

MHF is a community. As such there are people I like & dislike, people who's opinions I value & those I don't - much like any community. 
I for one, on a purely personal basis, feel that the OP was dishonest. For me that's the end of it - my trust is gone. The product / service / offer may be good but I don't want to do business with someone I don't trust. 
Other traders have been honest about their identity and I am able to temper their advice & offers accordingly - an approach I find far more honest.


----------



## GEMMY

Surely this thread should be locked by now. 8O 

tony


----------



## DABurleigh

We're all waiting for the OP to thank us for our responses.

Dave


----------



## PlanetGen

I dont think this post should be locked. It is very interesting from a traders perspective. 
I also think it is a great way to get feedback on likes or dislikes from the public.
Simon


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

Let the post be finished when we stop responding. Democracy.

Dave p


----------



## gaspode

GEMMY said:


> Surely this thread should be locked by now. 8O
> 
> tony


Why should the thread be closed Tony?

The responses have all been civilised with no offensive remarks, in fact there have been some very constructive comments.


----------



## gnscloz

PlanetGen said:


> I dont think this post should be locked. It is very interesting from a traders perspective.
> I also think it is a great way to get feedback on likes or dislikes from the public.
> Simon


speaking for myself

if i ask for advice i would like to know if its unbiased from someone giving there honest opinion with nothing to gain, equally i would like to know if its a trader who may have a more definitive opinion on the product, if they get a sale from it so be it, the op has managed to alienate himself now by not letting the removal of the post go without bringing it back up again causing this lot 
mark


----------



## CliveMott

Now Simon,
Surely that,s plain advertising? surely??

C.


----------



## sallytrafic

Taking DABs excellent post on partiality of advice as a starting point. I don't think its the traders you have to be worried about (as long as you know they are traders).

In my experience there are none so partial as those that have bought something and want to recommend it. I have also read some research that shows that most people talk up their possessions and are somewhat blind to any deficiencies. It is an ego thing, don't want to look mugs.


----------



## gaspode

sallytrafic said:


> I have also read some research that shows that most people talk up their possessions and are somewhat blind to any deficiencies. It is an ego thing, don't want to look mugs.


An interesting observation Frank.

But how does that fit in with all the dozens of members who whinge at length about all the minor faults and poor build quality of their M/H? Do they all have no ego?

In truth in takes all types - and they all have equally valid opinions....................... :wink:

Anyway enough of that, it's {offtopic} isn't it?


----------



## sallytrafic

Just to answer your question Ken the same research said that there was a tipping point and it was then seen as OK to be a victim. What was rare was the person who could be objective.

For the record and bringing it nicely back on topic Eddievanbitz strikes me as someone who will quite willingly point out the 'warts and all' of stuff he sells.


----------



## PlanetGen

CliveMott said:


> Now Simon,
> Surely that,s plain advertising? surely??
> 
> C.


lol, I think its difficult not to advertise a company. I turned up at the Global in the Planet Van - sorry! Did make it easy for people to know who I was! :lol: 
I would like to think I am one of the "good" traders on here. But hey ho. I use this site because I enjoy it. As said earlier I have made some good friends here and help when I can. If ever I get any business out of it then thats the cherry on top.

I look forward to the Rallies next year too. People have the great concept I share - bring a beer to a new friend and make a friend for life!
Getting back on subject, I dont think avatars are a problem. Lots of people have pictures of there interests. Lots of bikers for example (Which are awesome!) I think its a good way to learn about someone.

Yes Planet is an interest (and a hobby) of mine. It is something I choose to share with someone. If someone asks me about it I will tell them.

I wont however try and ram it down someones neck.

I wouldnt want that and dont intend to do it to others.

I also like the fact that from using this site, when it comes to building a Van next year I know who to go to. Not through adverts on posts or companies popping up on a free account and plastering website and phone numbers with sale of the century, but through companies avatars and reading company reports on them.

I have paid my Tenner fair and square! Money well spent!
Simon


----------



## val33

Another vote for DAB's suggestion.

I used to be a specialist Mail Order supplier and was a frequent poster on many related internet mailing lists (the forerunners of forums like this). The rules were very clear, I could post in response to a question but my post had to start and finish with the following line

*************** TRADE ******************

This left the reader in no doubt about any conflict of interest.

It worked very well for many years. 

I must say that I think that the MHF rules are counter productive. As DAB says, the people with the most accurate information are very often the traders and if they are prepared to give freely of their time by answering forum questions why should they not benifit from the occasional plug for a relevant product or service. Very often, it is only through that type of post that we find out that they offer that particular service/product or that it even exists, so in a way that in itself is also great benifit for the members.

Just my two penneth worth.

Val


----------



## Kees

I, too, value the input from traders and I hope they do get increased sales as a result of their efforts.

I do think they should be clearly identified though and I wondered if perhaps the grey box on the left could be a different colour for traders?

Regarding PlanetGen's avatar - I don't object to the content but I do find it irritating!

Kees


----------



## DABurleigh

In IE and FF just hit escape. You can practice timing it so Simon's avatar is an even more peaceful blank! 

Dave


----------



## Zebedee

DABurleigh said:


> In IE and FF just hit escape. You can practice timing it so Simon's avatar is an even more peaceful blank! Dave


Thanks Dave.

You learn something new every day . . . I didn't know that!! :?

Dave


----------



## DABurleigh

Or you can turn off your browser animated gif setting to stop having to hit Esc each page.


----------



## Kees

"Or you can turn off your browser animated gif setting to stop having to hit Esc each page."

but then I would miss Motorhomersimpson's wonderful animation, which has a special place in my heart (or should that be stomach?).

thanks Dave, much appreciated.

Kees


----------



## nukeadmin

> nuke's revelation that there are 300 MH traders posting on here


ah now the pedants amongst you (you know who you are  ) will have noted that i said that we had 300 traders on the site, not that they are all posters


----------



## eddievanbitz

sallytrafic said:


> Just to answer your question Ken the same research said that there was a tipping point and it was then seen as OK to be a victim. What was rare was the person who could be objective.
> 
> For the record and bringing it nicely back on topic Eddievanbitz strikes me as someone who will quite willingly point out the 'warts and all' of stuff he sells.





sallytrafic said:


> In my experience there are none so partial as those that have bought something and want to recommend it. I have also read some research that shows that most people talk up their possessions and are somewhat blind to any deficiencies. It is an ego thing, don't want to look mugs.


Frank, your so right about the opinion of a private individual who has bought a product and sings it's praises, even to the point of making things up or ignoring certain "known fault" I call it (from the first person to jump in the freezing water) "Come on in lads the water is lovely and warm" 
I often get stick for telling the truth about products, normally from people who have bought that product :lol:

When someone tells "untruths" or posts misleading information about a product it should be challenged. Otherwise along comes an innocent member, interested in a product reads up, makes a decision based on a post by a biased member (either a member of the trade or an over zealous product owner) and bases his or her decision on nonsense in some instances.

He or she then decide "I would like one of these fitted please" then blames everyone else except themselves for the lack lustre performance of their chosen product. Dear MHFacts Product "A" is crap as it wont work in the dark despite being told the contrary. It was fitted by VanSnellyCrossOutdoorbits

Slightly off topic, but in a similar vein, I and my colleagues stood for seven days listening to a salesman on a motorhome dealers stand at the February NEC telling people "pop a satellite on the roof and you will be able to watch Coronation Street anywhere in Europe"

If customers get told this by three or four different people, when they come to get one fitted, that is what they will expect. We, as the product importers and installation company then receive the flack for this piece of nonsense when the customer is on the phone in Greece shouting and swearing at us telling us that "we were told it would work"!! and we are all looking at each other in a bewildered manner, knowing that none of us would say such a thing, and then we get "are you calling me a liar?

Misinformation is as harmful and disruptive to us as it is to the public! Clarity, honesty and openness is the only way that trade and non trade can co-exist to the mutual benefit of all.

As for benefits? Well lets be honest, yes there are benefits to me posting on Motorhome Facts. Even if I don't actively promote Van Bitz or the products, the fact that I am offering advice and help from time to time puts me in a good light to some, and no doubt that may influence some people when making a decision.

However, I do not mean to be disparaging but, the amount of time I waste/spend/enjoy on motorhomefacts, balanced against the amount of business I get in return does not add up. I post and lurk on the site as I enjoy it.

I love some of the tussles I have had with members, I love reading some regular posters, like most I really cheer myself up reading Pusser, who I have had the privilege to meet several times (and we have come to the conclusion that we must be related) I have made friends with members and traders, I have accused Gerald (Gerald and Annie fame) of being a tree hugger, and then sat in a van with him drinking Stella when we should be getting ready do "grown up things" Meeting DAB is like meeting royalty as he is soo clever you have to think about everything before you open your mouth.

I have become famous for my hot choccie (or lack of it) thanks to Zebedee and Wobby, I meet everyone at Steve and Catherine's Cornish Farm rally (where incidentally I think I spent more on the band, karaoke stuff, the ram roast and the cider than we took in rally fee's RLOL)

In short twenty years ago I got involved with the motorhome industry as I had a motorhome, and the opportunity was there. I wanted to get involved because I loved motor homing as a way of life, I tended to meet and enjoy the company of similar minded people, I loved playing with motorhomes, always looking for toys and gadgets to add, and truthfully "innocently" show off to my motorhome mates the next weekend we were all always and I am no different now.

If I sold Van Bitz tomorrow and retired, would I still post on MotorhomeFacts?? You bet

Sorry for a long winded post, but some things are not easy to explain succinctly
Eddie [/align]


----------



## rayrecrok

Hmmm.

Always remember.


“Rules Are For The Guidance Of Wise Men And The Obedience of Fools” Douglas Bader (Ace fighter-pilot) .

This thread is tiresome!.


----------



## Telbell

An interesting thread with some excellent Posts.

To me the relevant fact (as has been referred to I think before) is that nowhere in the OP's profile, avatar or signature is there an indication that he/she is a trader and if there are any adverts for the company flying around the site I certainly can't relate them to the OP

Surely this is wrong?

Seems that as has been suggested a rewrite of the rules be considered, including consistent and fair enforcement by the Mods.


----------



## clodhopper2006

rayrecrok said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> This thread is tiresome!.


Why do people read threads they find tiresome. It would be like me listening to the Archers and not having the nous to turn it off/over :roll:


----------



## PlanetGen

Kees said:


> I, too, value the input from traders and I hope they do get increased sales as a result of their efforts.
> 
> I do think they should be clearly identified though and I wondered if perhaps the grey box on the left could be a different colour for traders?
> 
> Regarding PlanetGen's avatar - I don't object to the content but I do find it irritating!
> 
> Kees


lol, I will se if it can be made smaller! I thought it was quite catchy! :wink:


----------



## gromett

PlanetGen said:


> lol, I will se if it can be made smaller! I thought it was quite catchy! :wink:


It's not the size that irritating it's the flashing 8O :? I didn't know about the escape trick but it still annoying having to do that every time you post :?

Frank and Eddie, I must be a strange one then, If I make a recommendation I usually start with the deficiencies.
I got slammed for a review I did of the iPhone when it first came out, some people just don't want to hear the truth lol.

Eddie, You mean you stood next to a salesman for a whole week listening to him misinform and you didn't have a friendly chat with him as the sole importer?

Karl


----------



## IrishHomer

To be honest I skipped 12 pages of posts on this topic. IMHO it was a little naughty of Ian to promote the kind offer without identifying his connection but I don't think it is a flogging offence (1st time anyway).

May I suggest Ian that you subscribe as a different member, e.g. "Camper care Ian" and that way you would get advertising every time you post, a la 'JohnCrossMotorhomes'?

IH 8) 

:wave: for Peter, Chris :wave: and Mavis :wave:


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

One comment I would make, there maybe 300 traders lurking but how many are brave enough to put their heads up above the parapet or take the interest to help and assist.

Any trader posting on here is open to criticsm if they don't supply whats on the tin. 

Peter


----------



## eddievanbitz

gromett said:


> Eddie, You mean you stood next to a salesman for a whole week listening to him misinform and you didn't have a friendly chat with him as the sole importer?
> Karl


Hi Karl, LOL It wasn't an Alden product, and have you actually tried to talk to some of the young, gobby salesmen that seemed to be bussed in for the shows?

Some windmills are just not worth tilting at! and besides, where would you draw the line?


----------



## carol

I love the thread, it reminds me of why I like MHF. Having been away for a couple of months in the motorhome, I have missed you all.

When I needed you all with a problem, those online who were able to offer advice did so and we were sorted, no you can't buy this sort of help and that is why I try to encourage others to join when I meet them, you never do know where you meet them.

As to the OP - I do think that Dave and the Mods somehow have to sort this trader bit out, I have always thought that the likes of Eddie and Peter and those others who do use their trade names as their names must benefit, we know who they are, what they do and we are able to contact them direct should we wish to via a PM - how good is that?

I was no good as a Moderator - and basically couldn't hold my tongue at times, so I know how hard they work behind the scenes and I do miss their thoughts when problems like this thread start, they do all work together to make sure they get it right, and here I think they did.

The idea of the Traders having a different colour side bar with their avatar could be a good one.

I know that they are aware of many who are traders and perhaps the time has come to out them, or discreetly ask them to 'OUT' themselves, for their and our good.... maybe some would like to try it.

As to DABS - well he is too clever and I love him - such a great guy - always helpful, and with a lovely wife and such a gorgeous dog - sorry Dave to embarrass you - but it is your input on technical questions I probably value over others.... so thanks...

Good thread

Carol


----------



## nukeadmin

lol well Peter you and I must hang out in the same places online !!!!

I just had Paris say exactly the same to me, actually Ben and I did a little experimenting and discovered its a bot that you interact with, i.e. I typed a single full stop which initiated the other end of the conversation to add the next templated line lol

ah well if only young 21 year olds called Paris were really chasing after old and older gentlemen in the mh industry eh Peter


----------



## mikeyv

DABurleigh said:


> In IE and FF just hit escape. You can practice timing it so Simon's avatar is an even more peaceful blank!
> 
> Dave


Thanks for that, worth the tenner on it's own, anything else will be a bonus  .


----------



## ianhibs

DABurleigh said:


> But some posts from satisfied customers so make me want to stick my fingers down my throat I do wonder what deal was struck.
> 
> Dave


Looking back at my posts on Peter Hambilton & Conrad Anderson made yonks ago where I enthused too much about the great service I realise now I must have made you quite unwell and would like to apologise. What is even worse is that I neglected to strike that deal about which you were so concerned.

Will curb my natural enthusiasm in future, Dave, and will use the New Scientist as my template.

Ian


----------



## UncleNorm

I've read all the posts - I have an opinion...

I don't like being duped by anyone. I've always believed and advocated that "Honesty is the Best Policy".

I have no issue with traders being members on MHF provided they are open about their presence which seems to have *not* been the case at the beginning of this thread.

So, moving on, if that's possible...

The magazine MMM, which many of us admit to reading, has a simple phrase in the 'Classifieds - motorhomes for sale' section:

_*"It is an offence for a TRADER not to declare the fact in their advertisement". *_ [MMM's bad grammar, not mine!]

Surely, something along those lines could be managed by MHF?

Suggestion: _*"It is a condition of membership that Traders connected to the motorhome industry declare their interest".*_

Perhaps, simply, the word *TRADER* could then be added under the trader's avatar? Make it flash, if that helps! :roll: :wink:


----------



## gromett

UncleNorm said:


> Make it flash, if that helps! :roll: :wink:


NOOOoooooooo!!!!! :? 

Karl


----------



## UncleNorm

Well done Karl! That was just for you...

Karl said: _*irritating it's the flashing *_

I said: _*Make it flash, if that helps!*_

Karl said: _*NOOOoooooooo!!!!! *_

:lol: :lol:


----------



## eddievanbitz

OK so we feather and tar all the traders (waste of time by the way because the honest ones all wear their hearts on their sleeves anyway) and the sneaky ones hide behind a nom du plume :roll: (I bought my Hymer and I was so pleased with the reversing sensors fitted by............. :lol: )

To avoid any confusion for any of us, can we also have different colours for say, Nutters? (rainbow/Jazz) boring pedants (beige) Tree huggers (Green obvioulsy)Angry posters (Black) Timid posters (White) Camp posters (Pink) BNP posters (White/red stripe) Right Wing posters (Blue) Left wing (Red)

Gosh it will be so much fun

Eddie

VANBITZ TRADER :headbang:


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

UncleNorm said:


> Make it flash, if that helps! :roll: :wink:


Not even for you Norm will I flash :roll:

Peter


----------



## Kees

"To avoid any confusion for any of us, can we also have different colours for say, Nutters? (rainbow/Jazz) boring pedants (beige) Tree huggers (Green obvioulsy)Angry posters (Black) Timid posters (White) Camp posters (Pink) BNP posters (White/red stripe) Right Wing posters (Blue) Left wing (Red)"

And alternating orange and blue for irritating posters?

Kees


----------



## Bubblehead

eddievanbitz said:


> sallytrafic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just to answer your question Ken the same research said that there was a tipping point and it was then seen as OK to be a victim. What was rare was the person who could be objective.
> 
> For the record and bringing it nicely back on topic Eddievanbitz strikes me as someone who will quite willingly point out the 'warts and all' of stuff he sells.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sallytrafic said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience there are none so partial as those that have bought something and want to recommend it. I have also read some research that shows that most people talk up their possessions and are somewhat blind to any deficiencies. It is an ego thing, don't want to look mugs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Frank, your so right about the opinion of a private individual who has bought a product and sings it's praises, even to the point of making things up or ignoring certain "known fault" I call it (from the first person to jump in the freezing water) "Come on in lads the water is lovely and warm"
> I often get stick for telling the truth about products, normally from people who have bought that product :lol:
> 
> When someone tells "untruths" or posts misleading information about a product it should be challenged. Otherwise along comes an innocent member, interested in a product reads up, makes a decision based on a post by a biased member (either a member of the trade or an over zealous product owner) and bases his or her decision on nonsense in some instances.
> 
> He or she then decide "I would like one of these fitted please" then blames everyone else except themselves for the lack lustre performance of their chosen product. Dear MHFacts Product "A" is crap as it wont work in the dark despite being told the contrary. It was fitted by VanSnellyCrossOutdoorbits
> 
> Slightly off topic, but in a similar vein, I and my colleagues stood for seven days listening to a salesman on a motorhome dealers stand at the February NEC telling people "pop a satellite on the roof and you will be able to watch Coronation Street anywhere in Europe"
> 
> If customers get told this by three or four different people, when they come to get one fitted, that is what they will expect. We, as the product importers and installation company then receive the flack for this piece of nonsense when the customer is on the phone in Greece shouting and swearing at us telling us that "we were told it would work"!! and we are all looking at each other in a bewildered manner, knowing that none of us would say such a thing, and then we get "are you calling me a liar?
> 
> Misinformation is as harmful and disruptive to us as it is to the public! Clarity, honesty and openness is the only way that trade and non trade can co-exist to the mutual benefit of all.
> 
> As for benefits? Well lets be honest, yes there are benefits to me posting on Motorhome Facts. Even if I don't actively promote Van Bitz or the products, the fact that I am offering advice and help from time to time puts me in a good light to some, and no doubt that may influence some people when making a decision.
> 
> However, I do not mean to be disparaging but, the amount of time I waste/spend/enjoy on motorhomefacts, balanced against the amount of business I get in return does not add up. I post and lurk on the site as I enjoy it.
> 
> I love some of the tussles I have had with members, I love reading some regular posters, like most I really cheer myself up reading Pusser, who I have had the privilege to meet several times (and we have come to the conclusion that we must be related) I have made friends with members and traders, I have accused Gerald (Gerald and Annie fame) of being a tree hugger, and then sat in a van with him drinking Stella when we should be getting ready do "grown up things" Meeting DAB is like meeting royalty as he is soo clever you have to think about everything before you open your mouth.
> 
> I have become famous for my hot choccie (or lack of it) thanks to Zebedee and Wobby, I meet everyone at Steve and Catherine's Cornish Farm rally (where incidentally I think I spent more on the band, karaoke stuff, the ram roast and the cider than we took in rally fee's RLOL)
> 
> In short twenty years ago I got involved with the motorhome industry as I had a motorhome, and the opportunity was there. I wanted to get involved because I loved motor homing as a way of life, I tended to meet and enjoy the company of similar minded people, I loved playing with motorhomes, always looking for toys and gadgets to add, and truthfully "innocently" show off to my motorhome mates the next weekend we were all always and I am no different now.
> 
> If I sold Van Bitz tomorrow and retired, would I still post on MotorhomeFacts?? You bet
> 
> Sorry for a long winded post, but some things are not easy to explain succinctly
> Eddie [/align]
Click to expand...

Sooooo Eddie

Are you trying to tell me that the Phenix solar your fitting for me wont work at night, down a coal mine, in a cave or under the sea?

What are we all expected to do when were all given this sort of advice, what next....Fiat saying that the X250 doesn't have any problems  :lol:

Andy


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## erneboy

Nutters? (rainbow/Jazz) boring pedants (beige) Tree huggers (Green obvioulsy)Angry posters (Black) Timid posters (White) Camp posters (Pink) BNP posters (White/red stripe) Right Wing posters (Blue) Left wing (Red) 


Volunteers will be needed to sort posters into categories. I would like to be a nutter although I fear, at times I also fall into many of the other categories too, Alan.


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## ianhc

As the original poster i have read with great interest the 14+pages of comments.
So to try and sum up, it appears that a number of members feel that all traders need to be transparent, the information we give out to other MHM will not change, but at least you will now know where to buy the items from.

If we answer a question within our expertise, what should we do, recommend our competitors product so as not to "self promote"?

We can have our avatar ( the members details on the left ) as a flashing changing and revolving advert complete with a picture of our van with website, tel number and address, so as the reader knows who we are.

We change our names to our company titles, so readers know who we are.

Hang on..........with all this advertising going on.......... whats the point of me paying for it?


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## gnscloz

ianhc said:


> As the original poster i have read with great interest the 14+pages of comments.
> So to try and sum up, it appears that a number of members feel that all traders need to be transparent, the information we give out to other MHM will not change, but at least you will now know where to buy the items from.
> 
> If we answer a question within our expertise, what should we do, recommend our competitors product so as not to "self promote"?
> 
> We can have our avatar ( the members details on the left ) as a flashing changing and revolving advert complete with a picture of our van with website, tel number and address, so as the reader knows who we are.
> 
> We change our names to our company titles, so readers know who we are.
> 
> Hang on..........with all this advertising going on.......... whats the point of me paying for it?


but theyre upfront they dont pretend to be joe public


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## ianhc

Once again, surely its " self promotion " so it will be removed?
Any advertising is " self promotion " is that not the case.?


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## Rainbow-Chasers

Having your name and address is going too far. That IS advertising.

Having your trade name as your user name, gives members knowledge of your trade staus, area of expertise, and if they wish to deal with you THEY HAVE THE CHOICE to find you, search for your offers and approach you.

I even do this with my customers! I have an anti-spam policy, which means there are no newsletters, or promo notices that go out to anyone on my database - they all know, if they want the special offers/discounts, go and find them - sounds a little mad, but it gives the choice! The reason behind this, was long before i got into hire, I was quoted £3500 to hire for two weeks, so didn't bother - that company still sent relentless promotional material to this day!

As for passing on competitors details go, if that helps the poster, then YES! I suggested to a member on here recently who was reluctantly having to sell his motorhome, that he either approached a dealer on here and ask their advice, or hired out so he could keep it - *but stated, that as a trader on here - I COULD NOT HELP with that *- it was pointing out an option, to an owner who really enjoyed his hobby as another owner who enjoys the same hobby - nothing in it for me!

That is what you HAVE to accept as a trade member who is giving advice, you don't always if ever benefit - you are doing it to help like minded individuals!

If any member wishes to use your services, it is their choice! As you pay for banner advertising, that is where your promotions should go. If you do free parking, then state so on your banner - and when your trade name is your user name - they know who to approach!


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## carolgavin

ianhc said:


> clipped...........why should I pay for it


Well now theres a question isn't it. See a banner is all very well and is nicely and prominently displayed on the home page and is a very handy link if you need something from that company. But by identifying with your brand and becoming a helpful presence on a forum such as this exponentially your stock rises. You are known as a helpful and knowledgable person and your sales will most probably benefit (might not either have no way of knowing really). Your name could be the first on everyones lips when that particular product is required.

For example, I need a purple people eater for my van??? Oooh well that camperdude has them and I know several people who got them from him and were awfully pleased, such a nice helpful guy, blah blah blah.

Even if people haven't purchased from you they are much more likey to mention your name if they feel they have a connection with you.

Right ok perhaps you made a mistake on this occasion but by taking real notice of what people are saying you have your answer as to what you do next. 
If you then post your offer being clearly identified as having an interest in that company then yes its self promotion but within the rules.
So Ian hunny choice seems clear, change your username to reflect your business interests, within the rules post again the offer (which is very good by the way) job done!!!!!!


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## ianhc

Finally on this subject. I have listened to all postings and to make it clear in future for all members ALL my posts now include my trade identification.
Thanks for all comments, both good and bad.


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## eddievanbitz

ianhc said:


> Hang on..........with all this advertising going on.......... whats the point of me paying for it?


Believe it or not not every post in the forum would be about you :roll:

That is the point! :wink:

Eddie


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## DABurleigh

ianhibs said:


> DABurleigh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Finally I don't like traders privately offering a good price but only if you post good things about the product or service to advertise on their behalf. Yes, of course I know it goes on because some say it to me until they learn that I'm going to call it as I see it, whether it's the best thing since sliced bread or total rubbish. That's because principles and integrity matter a lot to me. Regrettably, however, I am at a loss as to how to prevent this. But some posts from satisfied customers so make me want to stick my fingers down my throat I do wonder what deal was struck.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> Looking back at my posts on Peter Hambilton & Conrad Anderson made yonks ago where I enthused too much about the great service I realise now I must have made you quite unwell and would like to apologise. What is even worse is that I neglected to strike that deal about which you were so concerned.
> 
> Will curb my natural enthusiasm in future, Dave, and will use the New Scientist as my template.
> 
> Ian
Click to expand...

Ian,

I'm not sure how to take this in the absence of emoticons. Dry humour or do you somehow feel accused or got at? I didn't have any example in mind when I wrote the above and I don't now. I have no idea what you wrote either. But if you simply take my words at face value, they merely say that as such conditional offers are made to me, they will be made to others, so when there is ebullient praise, I wonder. That's it. No-where have I said that anyone lauding traders must have been encouraged to give such feedback as a condition of a good price.

Anyway, if you felt got at that wasn't intended, and if you wanted to make a cheap shot at me, well done, you did.

Dave


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## PlanetGen

I think avatars are not a problem because people know who you are when talking to you and can help them if they have a problem in that field.
10 minutes ago I talked someone through getting a non running Kipper.
Guys first words where I saw you on MHF.
I think the problem is false advertising. If you are gunna self promote at lease be blatent enough so people know you are! :wink: 
If your gunna advertise do it in the right way.
Simon



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am a trader on MHF, please take my comments at face value. I do not represent the opinions or Planet Power in my personal statements. I am not advertising intentionally but I must make you aware that I sometimes may slip up. I may also at times make reference to Power products on here as that is my field. (Is this a bit extreme?!)  :lol: :wink:


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

Easy answer to all this, the information is logged on members details, providing they are honest.

Is there not an option to be able to ignore certain members posts somewhere?

Realname Johns Cross MotorHome and Camping Centre 
Which Dealer (If applicable) did you purchase from ? 
Do you own a MH ? Yes 
What Model MH ? Swift 
Are you a Trader / Motorhome Industry Related Business *Yes *


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## geraldandannie

Blimey - is this thread still rumbling on? :roll:

Just in case there's any doubt about the rules concerning advertising in forums, here they are: http://www.motorhomefacts.com/forums-rules.html#7. As long as you keep to them, you're OK. They're quite simple and straighforward.

General information for traders likewise http://www.motorhomefacts.com/forums-rules.html#16

Gerald


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## gaspode

JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> providing they are honest.


I think you just discovered the weak link in your no doubt well-intentioned suggestion Peter. :wink: 
:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Zuma

Maybe all of the traders rules should be enforced, including rule number 5 :wink:

5. Companies are allowed to have a static (non animated) avatar to promote their company name, no website urls to be included in the image


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

Zuma said:


> Maybe all of the traders rules should be enforced, including rule number 5 :wink:
> 5. Companies are allowed to have a static (non animated) avatar to promote their company name, no website urls to be included in the image


Zebedee made mine! (I think from memory but it was over two years ago!)

Peter


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## Zuma

JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> Zuma said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe all of the traders rules should be enforced, including rule number 5 :wink:
> 5. Companies are allowed to have a static (non animated) avatar to promote their company name, no website urls to be included in the image
> 
> 
> 
> Zebedee made mine! (I think from memory but it was over two years ago!)
> 
> Peter
Click to expand...

Well there you go then, double standards! 8O


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

Yours is bigger than mine


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## spykal

Zuma said:


> Well there you go then, double standards! 8O


Not at all..it is all in the interpretation of the rules.

The Johns cross avatar is animated but it does not promote the company name.

This one which does promote the company name is also allowed since although it promotes the company name it is not animated:


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## ianhibs

> Ian
> I'm not sure how to take this in the absence of emoticons. Dry humour or do you somehow feel accused or got at? I didn't have any example in mind when I wrote the above and I don't now. I have no idea what you wrote either. But if you simply take my words at face value, they merely say that as such conditional offers are made to me, they will be made to others, so when there is ebullient praise, I wonder. That's it. No-where have I said that anyone lauding traders must have been encouraged to give such feedback as a condition of a good price.
> 
> Anyway, if you felt got at that wasn't intended, and if you wanted to make a cheap shot at me, well done, you did.
> 
> Dave


Blimey - I knew I shouldn't have joined in this discussion and now look where it's got me. I've upset the Main Man hereabouts with my attempt at wry humour. Sorry Dave. Put me in the queue for tarring and feathering after you've finished with the OP.

Ian   :wink:


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## sersol

*"Recently the moderators decided to remove one of my posts, after asking twice for their reasoning and giving them ample opportunity to respond i have received NO such response. SO i think it is up to you the members of this forum to decide."
*

Reading the original statement again,I wonder if the MODS had replied on one of the two requests,16 pages of snipping and all the other comments
may have been avoided ?

Gary


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## sersol

Zuma said:


> JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zuma said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe all of the traders rules should be enforced, including rule number 5 :wink:
> 5. Companies are allowed to have a static (non animated) avatar to promote their company name, no website urls to be included in the image
> 
> 
> 
> Zebedee made mine! (I think from memory but it was over two years ago!)
> 
> Peter
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well there you go then, double standards! 8O
Click to expand...

But that was before Zebedee became a mod :wink:


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## carolgavin

ianhibs said:


> Ian
> I'm not sure how to take this in the absence of emoticons. Dry humour or do you somehow feel accused or got at? I didn't have any example in mind when I wrote the above and I don't now. I have no idea what you wrote either. But if you simply take my words at face value, they merely say that as such conditional offers are made to me, they will be made to others, so when there is ebullient praise, I wonder. That's it. No-where have I said that anyone lauding traders must have been encouraged to give such feedback as a condition of a good price.
> 
> Anyway, if you felt got at that wasn't intended, and if you wanted to make a cheap shot at me, well done, you did.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> Blimey - I knew I shouldn't have joined in this discussion and now look where it's got me. I've upset the Main Man hereabouts with my attempt at wry humour. Sorry Dave. Put me in the queue for tarring and feathering after you've finished with the OP.
> 
> Ian   :wink:
Click to expand...

Awww Ian you will be ok he has a heart of steel that DABS, actually thought meself that your post was quite funny, but suppose thats cos my name wasn't mentioned     Like everything written on a forum with the absence of body language, eye contact and I suppose emoticons, regardless of how much you like or hate em, can be misconstrued Anyway DABs doesn't hold grudges, well not for long :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## DABurleigh

Which reminds me, Carol - there is still that outstanding issue to resolve over your post on Feb 10th 2004.

Dave


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## Zebedee

sersol said:


> Zuma said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well there you go then, double standards! 8O
> 
> 
> 
> But that was before Zebedee became a mod :wink:
Click to expand...

Indeed it was, and thanks for that Sersol. 

Since there is no way JCM can be identified from the avatar, I would argue that it's perfectly OK. In any case it doesn't flash - it animates as a cycle of discreet and separate images. :wink:

_(It could have been made to fade very slowly from one image to the next, but Peter was too stingy to commission a posh one like that!! 8O :lol: :lol: )_

How can it be counted as advertising if it clearly does not identify the advertiser? :?

Zeb

P.S. I suppose I must state that Peter did not pay me for the avatar. The above comment was a joke. :roll:

_(Have to be so careful in the middle of a witch hunt!! 8O )_


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## sallytrafic

Zebedee said:


> [clipped
> _(Have to be so careful in the middle of a witch hunt!! 8O )_


ah so that's what moderating means, I would have thought that was stirring


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## carol

DABurleigh said:


> Which reminds me, Carol - there is still that outstanding issue to resolve over your post on Feb 10th 2004.
> 
> Dave


Hi Dave been busy here, not been back to look, can you pm me



Carol


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## Zebedee

sallytrafic said:


> Zebedee said:
> 
> 
> 
> [clipped
> _(Have to be so careful in the middle of a witch hunt!! 8O )_
> 
> 
> 
> ah so that's what moderating means, I would have thought that was stirring
Click to expand...

Not exactly Frank.

Frustration more than anything, having been accused of promoting dual standards as a Mod . . . even before I became one.  :lol:

You can't win sometimes - I'm going back to bed!! 8O

Dave


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## Chascass

(clipped)
I've upset the Main Man hereabouts. 8O 


I suggest a show down, time and place to be decided by the mod's (Sheriff) :lol: :lol: 

Charlie.....sorry couldn't resist


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## DABurleigh

Wrong Carol, Carol 

See the post I tail-ended.

Dave


----------

