# The new French 80kph limit it’s not as simple as we thought!



## Mrplodd

On 1st July the blanket speed limit on all NON dual carriageway roads was lowered from 90 to 80kph (solo cars, motorcycles and M.H’s etc under 3500kg.
I have Just spent a couple of days with my ex crew mate from our traffic cop days at his holiday home in France. Due to his previous life he keeps a pretty careful eye on the French motoring legislation (and he speaks pretty fluent French) so.....

Firstly Please near in mind the difference between a “single carriageway” and a “dual carriageway” a single CARRIAGEWAY road can have any number of “lanes” two in one direction or one in the other or two in each direction BUT (and here’s the important bit) a “dual” carriageway can have one or more LANES in each direction BUT ALWAYS has some form of PHYSICAL barrier separating opposing lines of traffic (Armco barrier, a strip of land, hedges etc) No separation means it’s a single carriageway (even if it has four lanes) Pay attention at the back, there will be a test at the end of this!

So back to the detail.......

All is NOT as clear cut as you would like to think, on single carriageway two lane roads (one lane in each direction) the blanket limit is 80kph. HOWEVER............(Its France, it’s compulsorary to have a “However” :signhuh:

If you are on a SINGLE carriageway road that has THREE lanes, (one lane in your direction and two lanes opposing you) AND the two directions are separated by a SOLID white line then the single lane is still 80kph but the TWO lane side is 90Kph!! 

Apparently the “thinking??” behind this is it’s OK to overtake on the two lane section at 90Kph because you will not be doing it in the face of oncoming traffic!

I have just driven up this morning (6th July) from near La Rochelle to Saumur on N &D roads. One section of about 50miles was single cattiageway but alternated frequently between one lane and two lanes in my direction of travel. At the start of each 2 lane (please note the word LANE) section there was the usual blue square sign with two white arrows pointing up and one pointing down (to identify “my” direction then had two lanes) EVERY ONE of those signs had a brand new 90Kph speed limit sign directly above it AND where it reverted back to a single lane another blue and white sign showing the end of two lanes and reverting to one lane was a brand new 80kph sign atop of it! So the info relayed by my pal would appear correct. Talk about a ******* muddle!!

Apparently this lower speed limit is “experimental” for two years. It has been brought in by the French Prime Minister as his “Pet” project. The President and the motoring organisations are all against it but apparently the PM is able to (and has) over-ruled them. Its blindingly obvious that the PM doesn’t have much of a clue as to what the impact of this measure will do. Imagine you need to cover 360k. At 90Kph that will (hypothetically) take 4 hrs? At 80 kph it will take (a fraction under) 4.5 hrs. So lots more traffic actually “on” the road system . Also my suspicion is that the death rate will actually INCREASE because SOME will obey the new limit, others will see the “observers” as holding them up, get frustrated, and take more risks to overtake, thus causing more, not less crashes.

So what you now have are French roads where the speed limit in one direction is HIGHER THAN the limit in the other direction, madness or what??

The French, dont you just love ‘em?

Andy


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## Pudsey_Bear

Some of that was very clear Andy "On 1st July" it goes to ****e after that, and sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, the French may eventually figure it all out and might even get on board with it, but foreigners are in for some fun I think.


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## EJB

I read that some areas/towns? are going back to the original limits?
Always so complicated in France:surprise::wink2:


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## xgx

Not a problem ...just set the cruise control or speed limiter to 80kph and relax ...

There's always the toll roads if you's in a hurry


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## raynipper

Yes, typically complicated rules in France. Some priority to the right still exists in towns but 'most' roundabouts you do not have priority from the right. Then there's the Arch de Triumph.
Aviation is all in English except Orly Traffic Control. 

Just expect the unexpected.
I noted today that most French were still driving at 100kph on single carriageways. 

Ray.


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## rayc

1dr said:


> Not a problem ...just set the cruise control or speed limiter to 80kph and relax ...


But not too much as there are a multitude of 70kmh sections on the open road, normally associated with a perceived hazard such as crossroads or bends.


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## xgx

rayc said:


> But not too much as there are a multitude of 70kmh sections on the open road, normally associated with a perceived hazard such as crossroads or bends.


still easy, quick flick on the lever or touch the brakes ...did the whole of June, no probs ...it's all about staying in control and being observant


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## rogerblack

If I recall correctly, some French roads have speed limits that are reduced when it rains. 

I've never quite understood exactly what constitutes rain 
(does fine drizzle count? Or heavy mist? Hailstones? Snow?) 
also do you have to wait until the road is completely dry after rain 
to speed up again or just until the precipitation seems to have ended 
but there still may be spray from the road?
:scratch:


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## raynipper

Then there's this view...……………………

https://www.vicarious-shop.com/blogs/vicarious-view/new-speed-limits-france

Ray.


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## barryd

Im just excited that the scooter can now easily break the speed limit so I can flip the finger at any forward facing speed cameras.


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## Mrplodd

Well I read the attached link and they say that even on three lane sections of road the limit is 80 kph.

That is in direct contradiction of what I saw yesterday on a road where it was three lanes, with each direction getting a “turn” at two lanes to facilitate overtaking. At the start of EVERY 2 lane section was a BRAND NEW 90Kph sign and at the end of EVERY 2 lane section was another BRAND NEW 80kph sign. The “newness” of the signs was very obvious, it wasn’t a case that someone had been along and diligently cleaned them. And, when I think about it, I have NEVER seen similar signing anywhere in France because, up until last Sunday the limit on 2 or 3 lane roads was the same, i.e. 90Kph, so such signing would be totally unnecessary. 

Also on that stretch of road everyone seemed happy to travel at 80kph behind me, overtake when the signs showed 90 and then actuallynreduce speed back down to 80at the end of the 2 lane 90 limit section.

The above is exactly the same information as my old crew mate, who now lives semi permanently in France and speaks the language almost fluently, told me has been in the French press.

Andy


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## Mrplodd

barryd said:


> Im just excited that the scooter can now easily break the speed limit so I can flip the finger at any forward facing speed cameras.


But don't forget forget to make sure you are wearing a glove when you do so >>

Andy


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## JanHank

rogerblack said:


> If I recall correctly, some French roads have speed limits that are *reduced when it rains.*
> 
> I've never quite understood exactly what constitutes rain
> (does fine drizzle count? Or heavy mist? Hailstones? Snow?)
> also do you have to wait until the road is completely dry after rain
> to speed up again or just until the precipitation seems to have ended
> but there still may be spray from the road?
> :scratch:


I don't know what they say in France, don't go there, but here its when the road is wet.
I will have to keep my eyes pealed in case Mrs M takes a lead from her mate.

The 80km to 90 km on the 3 way lanes does make sense if lorries are only allowed to do 80 km all the time this is were everyone gets a chance to overtake them.


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## Mrplodd

JanHank said:


> The 80km to 90 km on the 3 way lanes does make sense if lorries are only allowed to do 80 km all the time this is were everyone gets a chance to overtake them.


Seems like a reasonable theory, but of course the gain is marginal because EVERYONE (in theory at least) is back down to 80 when it reverts to a single lane again.

It's France, logic is a stranger there!

Andy


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## Mrplodd

The below link explains it all very well. It's in French but the pictures are all you need.

http://www.radars-auto.com/actualit...-90-kmh-dans-les-creneaux-de-depassement-1414

Andy


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## JanHank

Mrplodd said:


> Seems like a reasonable theory, but of course the gain is marginal because EVERYONE (in theory at least) is back down to 80 when it reverts to a single lane again.
> 
> It's France, logic is a stranger there!
> 
> Andy


That is so Andy, but I would rather be behind a car and able to see beyond than stuck behind a lorry's back side.


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## JanHank

Mrplodd said:


> The below link explains it all very well. It's in French but the pictures are all you need.
> 
> http://www.radars-auto.com/actualit...-90-kmh-dans-les-creneaux-de-depassement-1414
> 
> Andy


I see lorries are prohibited from using the overtaking lane.


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## Mrplodd

barryd said:


> Im just excited that the scooter can now easily break the speed limit so I can flip the finger at any forward facing speed cameras.


Wot, like this chap?? Or is it really you?

http://www.radars-auto.com/images/t...adars-automatiques/doigts-d-honneur-radar.jpg

Andy


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## JanHank

That photo was used in 2005 on fake speeding tickets in Germany, a friend of ours, who rode a motorbike had one sent to her (by another friend of course).


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## salomon

After 7 days of the 80km limit , I havnt seen anyone who hasnt touched 100km. Except when there is a known speed camera.
The speed limit for trucks is still 80km...and hence overtaking is technically illegal if they are going at full speed. So does anyone sit behind a lorry ? No. And thats the main reason this new law is very silly. 
And dont get me started on the " sans permit " . The most dangerous things on the road imo.

Still. Foreign plates. Foreign license. Why does it matter in general ? The French tend not to give a s**t after all.....


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## jiwawa

What's the 'sans permit'?


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## raynipper

Little baby cars limited to small lawnmower engines and about 40kph you can drive without a driving license but costing more than most cheap full size cars.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35210572

Ray.


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## Mrplodd

salomon said:


> After 7 days of the 80km limit , I havnt seen anyone who hasnt touched 100km. Except when there is a known speed camera.
> The speed limit for trucks is still 80km...and hence overtaking is technically illegal if they are going at full speed. So does anyone sit behind a lorry ? No. And thats the main reason this new law is very silly.
> And dont get me started on the " sans permit " . The most dangerous things on the road imo.
> 
> Still. Foreign plates. Foreign license. Why does it matter in general ? The French tend not to give a s**t after all.....


See my previous post for the reasoning? behind the new restrictions, and the person responsible. 
The French simply LOVE rules, but only abide by the ones they feel appropriate, the British HATE rules, but blindly observe every single one. For example go to a French street market and see how many coloured chopping boards (As req by EU legislation) are used. It will be ONE used for everything, in the UK there will be five!

Andy


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## salomon

jiwawa said:


> What's the 'sans permit'?


Sans permis ( wrong spelling originally )

Limited to 45km. You can drive it on any road except express or autoroute ( thanks god for that !).
If you were born before 1988 then absolutely no license is required. If you were born after that then you must do a basic "brevet " of road sense.

Terribly dangerous. I know there are tractors all over the roads etc but these things are just horrendous. Often driven by ancients, complete drunks or general imbeciles. They do what they like. No license to lose, no consequences.


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## JanHank

Howsomever going back to speed cameras, don't be too cocky that you have the warning of speed cameras on your Navi because I don't think the temporary cameras have notifications.
In the first 2 years we were here I was caught 3 times with these little beggars, twice in villages, one was hiding next to a skip the other hidden in long grass, you don't know about them until the light flashes and your caught. The third time was on the motorway where I could see no sense why we had to drive at 100 kmph on an almost empty road, I was driving a Volvo V70 that flew like an eagle and I got stung by a bee, an Euro for each km I was driving so stung for €139.00 :frown2: I have no idea where that camera was hiding. If I had been doing over 140 kph I would have had points on my licence, it was only due to the km allowance that I didn't.
BTW in those days we didn't even have a Navi so no warning of any camera.


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## raynipper

Yes my Garmin only bings on the old limits. 90, 70, 50. But obviously not on the new 'temporary' 80.
But I note several new 80 signs near here on three lane roads.

Ray.


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## Mrplodd

Ray

See the link in my post #16 Explains everything much better than I can. I have a speed limiter fitted to my car, it will get a LOT of use in France now.

Sans permis, those HATEFUL stupid Axiom contraptions, how the **** are they allowed to be sold? Actually I know the answer, in France they are not classed as motor cars but "Quadricyclez" They are still lethal. Do a search on YouTube for quadricycle crash tests, terrifying!!!

Andy


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## raynipper

Out and about all this weekend and must have covered 150 miles. Very few were obeying the 80 limit and those that were, were overtaken asap.
I'm guilty as pootling along in 5th gets you someone trying to pass all the time and in not always the best places. So rather than create a dangerous situation I just keep up with the guy in front!!

Ray.


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## Mrplodd

raynipper said:


> So rather than create a dangerous situation I just keep up with the guy in front!!
> 
> Ray.


Considerate attitude, but I doubt it would be accepted as an excuse should you get caught over the limit.

Drove up from Saumur to near Caen today (ferry home Tuesday, boo hoo) on D roads, everyone seemed happy to do 80 (but it IS Sunday)

Think I was overtaken once and that was when going uphill (at a fair bit less than 80 it has to be said) It appears I travel in a bubble of "everyone is being goodly-ness"

The whole purpose of my starting this thread was to give everyone the heads up about the new limits. I usually travel at that sort of speed as that allows me to enjoy the journey and be mean with my fuel usage (it's also my class limitbwhen towing)

If others choose to thrash along, and are aware of the limit and choose to ignore it then that's fine. Just DONT come on here whingeing if you get caught and fined.

Andy


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## Penquin

I have driven to Bordeaux and round Bordeaux to Blaye this weekend and back and would agree many do not keep to the VERY unpopular new limit - there are now many 80kph signs around so that possible excuse has vanished.....

According to a survey done for The Connexion 74% of the French population disagrees with it. It is a make or break for the PM and the latter is quite likely...

BUT between Mussidan and Bergerac there were numerous police traps and motorbikes and they MAINLY seemed to be stopping non-French registered cars and MH - I wonder why? So 80kph is being actively enforced..... for now..... at the start of the main holiday season and near where many people leave the 130kph autoroute and go onto normal no divided road - 80kph applies along the whole length.

As regards rain? Even the Gendarmes cannot define when the limits are reduced - it is entirely decided by the computers on the autoroutes an their sensors - so mere mortals stand no chance.

The _sans permis_ cars are also driven by those that have LOST their licence - so I would reinforce how dangerous these things are on any roads...... some seem not to have indicators fitted or the user is totally unaware of the wisdom of using them....

Why do they exist? Have a look at the size of France and if you cannot drive for whatever reason you cannot even shop - public transport is VERY limited and home delivery does not exist - you collect it at the shop after ordering...... Without some form of transport those people that are too old too inform or too drunk would not be able to survive in rural France - so illness and losing one's licence could equal a death sentence..... So they have gone for a uniquely French solution - those stupid little vehicles....

BUT what did the UK used to use? The Invacar........ Those equally dangerous three wheelers which rolled at corners or if the user used the steering control...... the blue machines had a 500 04 600cc engine and were capable of 82mph.... yes really....

They were banned in 2003 (thankfully) after being around since the early 1950's in various forms..... so they are not that different from the _sans permis_ except much faster unstable and even more lethal....


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## salomon

I think the sans permis exist in Germany too. We have certainly seen them ( no plates on the back and an unknown manufacturer is usually the giveaway ).
I keep an envelope with €90 in it ...just in case. Himself got fined 3 times in a week once but that was years ago. 
I will need to check how much it is now and top it up. Bugger all they can do on foreign license ( mine is Andorran ) . We only have one French registered car ...I have never noticed different treatment tbh.

No one can quite understand why Macron went ahead with this. He is pushing through so many reforms which are unpopular with one section of society or another. But this new law is disliked by all sections. Hardly makes sense. I imagine after the trial it will be scrapped in order to regain brownie points so to speak.


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## DJMotorhomer

TomTom sent me an email to update my device to take into consideration of the new speed laws and it does not download speed cameras for France now as that is illegal.

Dave


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## Mrplodd

As I said previously, apparently this has been driven (geddit?) by the Prime Minister NOT Macron who is opposed to it, but the PM can (and has) over ruled him on it. 

It’s all to do with his promise to reduce the appalling death rate on French roads. It won’t but he can then say he took what steps he could, he’s a politician after all,

Andy


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## Mrplodd

DJMotorhomer said:


> TomTom sent me an email to update my device to take into consideration of the new speed laws and it does not download speed cameras for France now as that is illegal.
> 
> Dave


And has been for some time! What it now does is alert you to danger "Zones" many of which, strangely, have fixed speed cameras located within them. Been well reported on here!

Andy


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## Penquin

The TomTom "Critical Update" changes the displayed limits from 90 kph to the new 80 kph and seems from my journeys to be fairly accurate.

If you a TomTom that will accept the Update - I STRONGLY recommend that you do so before using it in France.

The speed cameras/danger zones is not changed by this update AFAIK in any way - they are totally separate.


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## barryd

Rubbish all of you! Those Aixam cars are super cool. No need to do the "Drive of shame" at 30 mph in the gutter. When you get banned for having too much Pastis with your Foie gras at the Sunday morning market just get one of these. 

Fast forward to about 50sec.

I'm having one, thats all there is to it!

Just look at it! Light, agile and completely out of control! Brilliant!


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## salomon

Mrplodd said:


> As I said previously, apparently this has been driven (geddit?) by the Prime Minister NOT Macron who is opposed to it, but the PM can (and has) over ruled him on it.
> 
> It's all to do with his promise to reduce the appalling death rate on French roads. It won't but he can then say he took what steps he could, he's a politician after all,
> 
> Andy


yes its been driven by Philippe, but he has no way of over ruling Macron. Macron appointed him and he campaigned for en Marche. En Marche have the majority ( except the senate ) . Philippe is still a republican.
Macron has allowed it to go ahead. Its Macron who has now declared that the measure is a 2 year trial ...mainly because its so unpopular .


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## raynipper

Our 'nasty' neighbour had a gardener with a Sans Permis. But he was an oik……………………. Ray.


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## raynipper

And another promotion.??






Ray.


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## StewartJ

This explains the new speed limits. http://www.frenchvillagediaries.com/2018/06/driving-in-france-new-80km-speed-limit.html


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## Penquin

salomon said:


> yes its been driven by Philippe, but he has no way of over ruling Macron. Macron appointed him and he campaigned for en Marche. En Marche have the majority ( except the senate ) . Philippe is still a republican.
> Macron has allowed it to go ahead. Its Macron who has now declared that the measure is a 2 year trial ...mainly because its so unpopular .


It has always been a 2 year trial since the original proposal but don't hold your breath about it being repealed UNLESS Macron has it cancelled and is seen as "listening to the people" as a vote gainer.......

cynical?

Moi?

How could you even think such a thing..........:wink2::serious:


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## Mrplodd

StewartJ said:


> This explains the new speed limits. http://www.frenchvillagediaries.com/2018/06/driving-in-france-new-80km-speed-limit.html


See the link my previous post #14 , it explains the limits much more clearly!

Andy


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## Pudsey_Bear

As far as the mini cars go, I think they are a great idea, (I'd have one for shopping) unfortunately they are too slow for the traffic around them, so they cause a moving chicane with impatient drivers passing them at the wrong time in the wrong places, otherwise it's only like two cyclists riding abreast, except they are more vulnerable, they should be at least insured though where cyclist are not.

I wonder if they would be legal on our roads?


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## raynipper

I did see someone was going to import them Kev to use as 'toads'. But not sure it happened. Then theres the G-Wizz.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear

That occured to me too, you could maybe use them like the Q-Pods only lift up the back and lock the steering, you may need a jack as it's the engine end to be lifted..


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## Pudsey_Bear

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Reva-G-W...001549?hash=item2aada6938d:g:hU4AAOSwBmpbOenQ


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## Penquin

Kev_n_Liz said:


> I wonder if they would be legal on our roads?


Presumably they would be as they carry a registration (often but not always) so could be used anywhere in the EU as they would comply with French reg laws........

Mind you it would take a LONG time to drive to the tunnel or anywhere in one.....

I believe they are also expensive but will have a look.....

From nigh on 11000€ so not a cheap option......

https://www.aixam.com/fr/gamme-sensation


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## rayc

The Peel P50 is I believe still available and received funding from Dragon's Den in 2011.


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## Penquin

But is it legal for the UK? I thought that it complied with Indian rules but needed considerable modifications to comply with VOSA standards.....

The answer appears to be YES but it comes in two forms; as a kit or as a ready-built car

£6500 for the kit and £8500 for the ready made...

http://p50cars.com/


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## Pudsey_Bear

A step too far perhaps Ray.


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## Mrplodd

Watch the below before you even THINK of getting in one!!






Bloody frightening or what??

Andy


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## raynipper

More crash tests of Smart and Corsa...…………………………






Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear

EEEH, nowt wrong with a portion of VBH now and then


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## Mrplodd

Just goes to prove one thing I have always maintained,

In the event of a crash, there is NO substitute for sheer physical SIZE. The more metal there is to deform the better because that absorbs the energy of the crash (so the occupants don’t have to)

Andy


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## Penquin

OK an update and warning to emphasis what has been said before but may not have been realised.........

I drove to and from Agen yesterday from Villeneuve - a stretch of mainly undivided road with no central reservation. The speed limit on MOST of it is 80 kph as expected (sadly the section of "motorway" with a normal 110 kph limit had an 80 kph limit on it as they were supposedly doing repairs - we THINK they may have been clearing weeds from beside the concrete reservation barrier as it was all coned off but as we did not see a single person (it was between 12.00 and 14.00) we were not sure.

There are two sections of "near side offside and suicide" markings with a solid white line separating the offside from the suicide lane. The limit on these s CLEARLY marked as 90 kph on the two side with two lanes while it is 80 kph on the other single lane side. At the end of that section there is clear markings that the limit is now 80 kph - and yes there are therefore different speed limits in the two directions (I know of other roads where different limits apply also due to bends).

SO be warned - it is nothing like as clear as "one speed fits all" - it doesn't.

At one point (in Agen we passed a 50 kph limit and then 25m further on an "End of 30 kph zone" so your guess is as good as mine what the limit actually is between the signs....... and it is actually 70 kph immediately AFTER the "End of 30 kph zone" and before anyone asks that was displayed as a red circle with 30 inside it and a diagonal black line across it too as well as the words to reinforce.

So SLOW DOWN is the key advice -the Gendarmes are out in force around Aquitaine and are stopping numerous vehicles. Funnily enough all the speed cameras seem t be operative at present too.......

A 90€ fin on the spot makes a dent in most people'e holiday money - don't risk it or the hassle that could go with it either immediately or perhaps some considerable time afterwards.....


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## raynipper

We have only noticed one police 'trap' so far this month in La Manche.

Ray.


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## skid

Good answers ,not a lot of uk drivers know this as yesterday they were bombing past me.
One interesting fact which is true my car a Peugeot is designed to run at 90 for max fuel consumption but at 80 I have to changto 5 th from six a lot more often resulting in more fuel used.

Happy days


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## raynipper

Yep, our 6 speed VWs can just manage 80 on the flat but any incline and we are cogging down.

Ray.


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## jiwawa

My semi-auto Hymer will nearly go up the Alps in 6!!


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## raynipper

But your on yer own Jean. Not bringing another kitchen sink n all.

Ray.


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## MyGalSal

raynipper said:


> But your on yer own Jean. Not bringing another kitchen sink n all.
> 
> Ray.


Good point, however, we have just sold our beloved Hymer which also had comfortmatic and although we were only two, we full-time and we did have everything and the kitchen sink 😂 with us, and we used to sail up Alps with ease.

Don't half miss that van!


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## jiwawa

I'm now t saying I agree with my van's choice of gear-change (or lack of)!


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## Mrplodd

Like I said at the start of this thread, the whole stated purpose of this lower limit is a pathetic attempt to reduce the appalling death rate on the French road network. 

I am of the opinion that it will actually have the exact opposite effect. Drivers will become bored by the monotony of bimbling along at 80K, their eyelids will become heavy, the drivers will get drowsy and then either nod right off or slip into semi sleep. The consequences of either are not difficult to foresee are they? But of course the decision was made by politicians who clearly feel the ought to do “something”and, like every other uneducated (in Highway matters) individual, think that the simple answer is a lower speed limit. It isn’t !!!! Crashes are caused by the soft squishy things sat behind the steering wheel making mistakes, if that soft squishy thing now becomes drowsy as a result of having to travel at a lower speed they will be paying even LESS attention so the collision rate will go up! BUT the politicians can say they have tried to address the problem (by imposing the wrong solution) 

In the meantime “Flic”will be out in force issuing lots of speeding fines and “forgetting”to issue receipts. Cynical? Me??

Andy


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## raynipper

Yep Andy, agreed.
We are finding it's far more difficult trying to stay at 80 while all around you drive at anything from 70 to 100 and all the time you are taking your eyes off the chaotic traffic to keep peeking at the speedo and mirror.

Ray.


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## rayc

I have just driven back from the French / Spanish border to Calais on non toll roads. My observations were that there are large variations from region to region concerning the speed limit on roads without a central barrier with two lanes in one or both directions. Many have retained 90kmh limits in the two lane direction of traffic whilst others have no signs thus indicating it is the default 80kmh.

I saw lots of apparently new speed cameras but not one Police / Gendarme speed trap on my journey. The French policy appears perverse. Have expensive tolls on the safest roads thus enticing drivers onto the unsafest roads and then dropping the speed limit on them because of the accident rate. If each fatality costs the amount of money the authorities quote then it would be cheaper to subsidise the safest roads to attract drivers onto them.


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## Mrplodd

There are NO “variations” of the speed limit between regions. It’s a NATIONAL speed limit of 80kph on two lane undivided roads. It may we’ll be that the signing hasn’t caught up with the legislation, but the 80kph limit is still in force and enforceable! 

I agree 100% with your reasoning about toll roads but the difference between the U.K. and France is that in France the Peage roads are owned by private companies, similar to certain toll bridges in the U.K., the Tamar bridge between Devon and Cornwall being one. It’s on a Highways England road but is not owned by them (and HE don’t get the toll money)

Andy


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## KeithChesterfield

Just to add to the confusion - they have a higher 90 kph limit on roads out of Urban areas which have more than two lanes.

In other words, a major road with one lane in one direction and two lanes in the other direction without a central barrier can have, if indicated by a 90kph sign, the chance to go quicker than the National limit of 80 kph.

We noticed this on a few major roads as on the D76 (in picture) where 90 kph signs allow extra speed on the two lane section heading North and reduces to 80kph as it returns to a single carriageway.

This is replicated with the South flowing traffic on the opposite carriageway.

The signs on this road were not left over from before the July limit was applied but are newly erected.

So with kph limits of 30, 50, 70, 80, 90 and Motorway limits of 110 and 130 (except when raining) it's hardly surprising that we, and the French, occasionally get it 'wrong'.




Hope this helps …...


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## Mrplodd

Keith

Do pay attention at the back!!

The above point was explained in my initial post!!

Andy


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## Mrplodd

Just had a chat with my ex crewmate who has a holiday home near Rochelle. Last time there (about a month ago) he did his usual bit of Googling on various French motoring websites

Apparently the accident rate has absolutely ROCKETED since the 1st July. Looks like my previous prediction of exactly that happening was spot on! 

He also said that just about every French resident with half a brain considers the 80kph to be a real stupid idea. 

So what does that say about the brain size of the person responsible for implementing it???

Andy


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## dghr272

My recent experience driving back from the Spanish border highlighted that many French car drivers are already bored with, or they have just decided to ignore, the new restrictions. Never came across any manned speed traps and didn't notice many new standalone cameras. The signage was consistent across the roads we traveled, something I noticed as my sat nav wasn't updated with the latest version.

Terry


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## rayc

Mrplodd said:


> There are NO "variations" of the speed limit between regions. It's a NATIONAL speed limit of 80kph on two lane undivided roads. It may we'll be that the signing hasn't caught up with the legislation, but the 80kph limit is still in force and enforceable!
> Andy


But they are new 90kmh signs. Are you saying the authorities are installing new 90kmh signs but enforcing at a lower limit?


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## erneboy

Having just spent six weeks in France I didn't see much sign of anyone abiding by the new limits. All roaring past as usual, after having followed far too close and half a car width out into the oncoming lane for several kilometers. Many of them also see no reason not to begin to overtake half way round a blind bend or approaching the crest of a hill. They scare the sh1t out of me.


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## Mrplodd

erneboy said:


> Having just spent six weeks in France I didn't see much sign of anyone abiding by the new limits. All roaring past as usual, after having followed far too close and half a car width out into the oncoming lane for several kilometers. Many of them also see no reason not to begin to overtake half way round a blind bend or approaching the crest of a hill. They scare the sh1t out of me.


THAT is the reason for their high accident rate, it has nothing to do with speed, it's because almost all of them drive like complete and utter [email protected]>

Andy


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## xgx

Mrplodd said:


> THAT is the reason for their high accident rate, it has nothing to do with speed, it's because almost all of them drive like complete and utter [email protected]>


After 2 months in France this year I have to say that UK drivers are just as bad

... there's still no way of legislating for idiots who put our lives in danger... be careful out there !


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## Penquin

I have raised a couple of this type of question with locals and the results may be interesting or terrifying or simply indicate why we see such things, that we have believed for years, to be dangerous;

1. During their "learning" phase (which is longer and more expensive than the UK) motorists are TAUGHT TO DRIVE CLOSE BEHIND OTHER VEHICLES before attempting to overtake......

2. Many motorists believe that the recent reduction is SOLELY A REVENUE GENERATING EXERCISE (this has been proved to be very true with reportedly an estimated 1.6bn€ being raised this year).

3. Motorcyclists are taught and encouraged to WEAVE THROUGH "SLOW MOVING" TRAFFIC to reduce congestion.

4. White lines are not regarded as MANDATORY BUT ADVISORY as regards overtaking.

NB I am making absolutely no comment about the sensibility of any of these thoughts - I am of course biased as I was UK trained...... but they frequently give me the heebie-jeebies....


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## Mrplodd

My pal (the one referred to earlier) is also a (Police) motorcyclist. He had a lengthy conversation with a French Motorcycle Traffic cop. The solid white line in France has EXACTLY the same designation as it does in the U.K. In fact the few exemptions present in the U.K. legislation are NOT present in the French system. He was told “It’s like a brick wall, you must treat it as such and NEVER cross it” 

Having said that he, like me, believes the average French driver is incompetent and dangerous and believes rules are there for idiots (and should be ignored at all times) 

DONT start me on how the French negotiate roundabouts. The French version of the Highway Code carries exactly the same advice in respect of what lane to use on the approach, what signals to give and how to actually drive around a roundabout. Stoney ground???

Andy


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## Penquin

But your French police motorcyclist may well have been like the group of 10+ French Gendarmes who I recently observed having lunch in a hotel we frequent for a lunch club....

They were in the adjoining room and had started their lunch before we arrived at 12.00 they were already consuming their starters plus wine....

They gradually moved on through the meal (good value at 17.50€ for four courses including unlimited red, white or rose) and refills were being brought out constantly (litre carafes).

They finished just before us - leaving at least 10 carafes empty or nearly so.

They went out to their Police official vehicles and motorbikes and set out to who know's where...

*"Do as I say and not as I do?"*

According to the hotel staff there are groups of police officers eating there at least once each week and that was not unusual....

We were far from impressed at witnessing such flagrantly dangerous behaviour.

And that was the same police that enforce the laws...

OK possibly unusual but worrying to say the least as AFAIK French drink-drive legislation is tighter than the UK.


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## Sprinta

I was in France for 5 weeks at the end of July to August and was advised of the new 80 limit. Not that it mattered much to me anyway as when I'm touring I'm doing it slowly driving Miss Daisy enjoying the view. 

The locals seemed to take as much notice of the limit as they do the 70 limit over here, not a limit, a target to exceed. 

Plenty of new speed cameras have been erected, and plenty of them have exciting lurid pink paint schemes and blacked out lenses courtesy of the local Banksies lol.


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## Sprinta

I also saw quite a few VSPs Voiture Sans Permis, whereby an unlicensed person is able to simply drive without a need to hold a licence, I believe they need insurance. What it can mean is a drink driver who no longer has a licence is still able to get around legally. 

When you look at the condition of most of them it seems quite apparent that the drivers drive by touch and they're held together with gaffer tape.


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## Mrplodd

rayc said:


> But they are new 90kmh signs. Are you saying the authorities are installing new 90kmh signs but enforcing at a lower limit?


Ray

Please see my thread starting post where HOPEFULLY I have explained why single carriage way but THREE lane roads have an 80 limit for the single lane and a 90 limit for the (oposing) 2 lane section. I suspect the signs you are referring to are at the start of one of those two lane (in the same direction) sections. I saw a lot of shiny new 80 & 90 signs on those type of roads when I was over there in August. Talk about being confusing!!

Just remember that the NATIONAL speed limit, on undivided TWO lane roads is 80kph, exactly like the National limit in the UK on the same type of roads is 60. There is NO variation across different regions like there is no variation between Yorkshire and Lancashire!!

Remember this is France, the country where logic seems to be an anathema :wink2:

Andy


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## raynipper

I like French logic. Park where there is a space and drive home after a liquid lunch.

Ray.


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## Mrplodd

raynipper said:


> I like French logic. Park where there is a space and drive home after a liquid lunch.
> 
> Ray.


Nice!!!

Andy


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## raynipper

I can actually remember a time before yellow lines. But the cars usually broke down weekly.

Ray.


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## baldlygo

Sans Permis can be fun. This is a clip from a spoof film made with our friends in Le Dorat. I did the driving. :smile2:

http://pastcaring.com/misc/san-permis.mp4


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## raynipper

They all sound like a Kango to me Paul. I keep expecting the piston to break free and see them enveloped in a cloud of steam.

Ray.


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## barryd

I love those little cars. Im getting this one.

https://tinyurl.com/y98yo9nh


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## raynipper

Warra lunatic. But it might fit in the garage of larger motorhomes.

Ray.


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## rayc

Last week i trundled along behind one for a few Km's until it was safe to overtake. It certainly looked plush, they have certainly come a long way over the years, not very speedily I grant you. 
I reckon they will become more desirable when they are fully electric powered with a reasonable range.


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## barryd

raynipper said:


> Warra lunatic. But it might fit in the garage of larger motorhomes.
> 
> Ray.


Oh come on Ray. Imagine the fun you could have in that with the Audi and BMW "Get out of my way Im so important" brigade as they come up behind you flashing their lights. You could wear a little flat cap and hunch down behind the wheel watching them get all agitated then as soon as they go for it, give it the beans (And the finger).  Soz. Off topic.


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## Mrplodd

barryd said:


> Oh come on Ray. Imagine the fun you could have in that with the Audi and BMW "Get out of my way Im so important" brigade as they come up behind you flashing their lights. You could wear a little flat cap and hunch down behind the wheel watching them get all agitated then as soon as they go for it, give it the beans (And the finger).  Soz. Off topic.


Baz

Just because that's what YOU always do on your moped (sorry scooter) doesn't mean Ray would want to >>>

That previous post, any idea of what engine is in it because one thing it ISNT is the standard totally gutless single cylinder fitted from new

Andy


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## erneboy

Sounded like a Fireblade or some such to me, and there was a graphic of a motorbike on the back window.


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## Mrplodd

erneboy said:


> Sounded like a Fireblade or some such to me, and there was a graphic of a motorbike on the back window.


Just think of the fun you could have at UK traffic lights with it >> Yeeehaaaaaaar!! Warp factor ten Mr Scott :wink2::wink2:

Andy


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## barryd

My thoughts exactly. Its clearly a bike engine. That would be just superb around here. It would be in a hedge within five minutes mind which is why I wont be allowed one


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## erneboy

There's a lad on a site we stay at in Lincoln who has an old Mini which he's lightened and space framed. It's a beautifully engineered job which he did himself and it's road legal. There's a Fireblade engine where the back seat should be so now it's rear wheel drive. That is very fast indeed. You should hear it eating gears as he flogs it up the road. That's illegal and obviously I disapprove. Honest.


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## barryd

Worrabout something from the USSR era?


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## raynipper

Brilliant but will it stop?

Ray.


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## barryd

Probably not. Does it even have a reverse gear?


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## Mrplodd

Clearly no reverse gear and the driver is never going to win any awards for his (lack of) drifting skills is he?

Again just think of the he fun you could have with such a toy at the traffic lights with your local boy racers. You would simply have to wear a flat cap and scarf to make yourself look like an 80 yr old wouldn’t you?

Andy


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## raynipper

Looks a bit like Alans Mahari.

Ray.


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## Mrplodd

A Mehari is basically a 2CV with an open top and sides GRP body powered by 602 CC’s of Monseur Citroen’s finest air cooled twin cylinder sod all horse power engine, BUT at least they have a reverse gear fitted!!

Many years ago I built myself a Lomax Lambda kit car. That was a two seat three wheeler (single at the back) using the chassis and running gear of a 2CV. It looked like a three wheeled Morgan and was enormous fun. Some brave individuals replaced the 2CV engine with a BMW R80 bike engine. They were VERY quick!
I am away for the weekend but when I get back home I will dig a few pictures out and post them on here.

Andy


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## erneboy

Tit!

My Mehari is beautiful. Not fast, but beautiful.


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## Penquin

My claim to fame was a Bond Minicar which had a 247cc Villiers engine mounted on the front wheel which went round with the steering to nearly 90 degrees each side..........

If you needed reverse it was a bit of a phaff as you had to stop the engine and then start it up again BACKWARDS - being a 2-stroke it seemed to be able to run like that although it sounded a bit odd......

One door (on the left hand side...... and enough legroom to virtually lay down in.... The battery was behind the seat and did not seem to have any mechanism for anchorage so it moved frequently....

Top speed? Around 45mph and it even had indicators as well as a push out window beside the driver's right arm where the bottom half could be pushed out to signal (remember hand signals). 5 gallon 2 stroke tank and that would take it about 150 miles. Sadly the brakes were questionable and the tyre wear atrocious as it only had 10" wheels (from memory)......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1956_Bond_Minicar_Mark_E_Prototype_Tourer.jpg

For more details;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_Minicar

Great fun and a real challenge when we had a heavy snow fall in NW Kent - the normal four wheel vehicles left 2 wide tracks through the deepish snow - not a lot of use for a three wheeler which tended to go along crab wise (badly).

Great for "courting" though as I used to hand my future wife a key (old con rod + big end bearing) and she would open the bonnet and manually "flood" the carburetor to allow the thing to start without having to use the kick start under the bonnet......

and still she said "Yes".....

.


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## raynipper

Alan, saw this today in Armacao de Pera.................................. Ray.


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## erneboy

An interesting one Ray. Thanks. It's always nice to see what's around. It's been painted, probably recently. Even so I expect it'd be €10,000 plus.


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## raynipper

It was being displayed at our loal ar show before the Carnival parade in Armacao.
There was probably lose to 100 old vehicles and some specials not so old.
I have never seen this Excalibur and the old Vauxhall Cresta they only made 400 and this one is the only one in Portugal. Ray.


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## SteveRallye1

We have recently come back thru France and on any road we were not sure of the speed we stuck to the 80 as my inbuilt limiter came into play(the wife) . I find this a bit annoying but its cheaper than a fine and a divorce! Oh and the yellow jackets were very thin on the ground and fuel was plentiful, the opposite of our journey out last year.


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