# Boiler leaking.



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

My van is fitted with an Elgena boiler. Two years ago I noticed that my water pump was occasionally running for a second or so for no reason. Just keeping the pressure up, perhaps a little water running back through the pump, or maybe there was a leak. A quick check of everything I could see without dismantling parts of the van revealed nothing.

A couple of days later while parked on a slope I noticed a drip from a rear wheel arch. So a leak. The boiler is easily seen through a locker door but there is no access to the back or the bottom, they back onto the island cupboard in the kitchen.

I took the drawers out of the cupboard and removed the cupboard floor. That allowed me to reach in and touch the back and bottom of the boiler. Sure enough it was wet.

I removed the boiler and took it to the Elgena factory in Munich, we were in the Mosel Valley at the time. They repaired it under their five year warranty.

The boiler is a tank within a tank with the inner tank being fresh water and the outer being holding the heating liquid which is heated by an Eberspacher water heater which also heats the wet central heating.

Getting the boiler out is messy because it involves draining the heating right down and emptying the tank of both the water mixed with anti freeze for the heating and the domestic hot water. No matter how careful you are it's virtually impossible not to spill some and when you do it goes into the underfloor area.

Fitting the repaired boiler is easy but bleeding the heating is an absolute sod of a job due to the bad positioning of the bleed screws and the complete impossibility of getting any kind of vessel under them to catch anything coming out and the fact that they are designed so that a little pipe can't be fitted to them. This means you have to bleed a little at a time and catch the escaping liquid on a cloth.

Now the damned boiler is leaking again and it seems to be exactly the same as the last time. I assume the factory pressure tested it, found the leak and repaired that. It looks as though there was a fault in the manufacturing and the welding in general is not good.

I expect they will agree to repair it again as it's still under warranty but I want to avoid having this problem in another couple of years.

These warranties are crap. They fix the immediate problem and leave you to do all the work or pay someone else to do it.

Of course I could take it to a dealer for repair but then he would want to keep the van for however long it takes to dismantle, send for repair and refit. Of course I would have to pay for all that too. Anyway as I am in Germany with two dogs I can't really do that. 

Just a bit of a rant to relieve the frustration and to warn others with this type of boiler to be vigilant and remember that you may not find the leak unless you can get to the back of the boiler.

I met a couple in Spain last winter, they too had a Frankia with this set up and they too had a leaky boiler. Their van was new and he and no mechanical ability so they wanted it all done under warranty. I found the problem for them but I don't know what they did next. I can only guess that it would have taken quite some time and caused a great deal of inconvenience, Alan.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Update. I have now removed the boiler and noticed something I missed last time I had it out.

The boiler rests on a plinth but it only extends about two thirds of the way back meaning the rear third is not supported. It is a 15 litre boiler so holds 15kg of water to lever on it. The stainless steel it's made of is paper thin and there is a huge dent in the bottom where the edge of the plinth has cut into it. I haven't removed the insulation to look yet but I strongly suspect the constant movement while driving may have fatigued it along the crease at the back of the plinth causing the leak.

If so warranty won't cover it. Bad design from Frankia.

Based on the likelihood of there being no warranty I may take it apart and see if I can get it repaired locally. Luckily I met a German guy in Spain two years ago who has a metal fabrication business a couple of kms away from where we are now. I know he works with stainless.

I will put some support below it if I get it fixed, Alan.

Fingers crossed, Alan.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I took it apart thinking there would be no warranty because I thought the leak might have been caused by lack of support at the back of the tank.

I was completely wrong, only the insulation layer was marked, the tank was undented.

Stood the tank upright and filled the fresh water side with water to look for the leak. I knew it was the fresh water side because the pump was running on and off. No sign so I took it and connected it to the site water tap, but a 20c for enough time for 10lt of water to flow no sign there either.

Connected it back into the van but this time standing upright and turned the pump on to fill it and pressurise it. After a few minutes bubbles began to appear round a welded seam, so I have found the leak.

Same as last time but not in the same place. I wonder if this is going to be an ongoing saga. It looks like it. I will take it tomorrow and see if I can get it welded and maybe get him to run a weld right round both ends if he thinks he can.

Only posting this to inform anyone else who may find they have a similar fault in the future, Alan.


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## safariboy (May 1, 2005)

Re-welding very thin stainless steel is difficult. I suggest that you try to persuade them that they need to fit you a new one.
Might not work but worth a try.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Cheers, I emailed the factory this morning and pointed out that this is the second time inside the warranty period. Now that I have started they may not be interested but they are decent people so I will wait and see what they say. I am doing the work myself to save the bother of leaving the van with a dealer and having to pay for the labour. Unfortunately it's a job I have become familiar with due to problems both with the boiler and the water heater. 

Knowing how hard the heating system is to bleed I took it to an Eberspacher dealer in Spain last winter when the heater failed. They spent an afternoon on it and were unable to bleed it, they suggested the heater was faulty to get me to go away, so having paid them for their abortive efforts I ended up doing it myself anyway. Have come to the conclusion that doing it yourself is best, then at least you know what has been done.

I am aware of the difficulty but the guy I am taking it to fabricates stuff in stainless so I have high hopes, Alan.


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## ched999uk (Jan 31, 2011)

Is it worth getting a better bleed method created at the same time? Maybe a bleed nipple fitted or an extension to the existing bleed point so its easier to get access to?

Hope you get it sorted out easy.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

ched999uk said:


> Is it worth getting a better bleed method created at the same time? Maybe a bleed nipple fitted or an extension to the existing bleed point so its easier to get access to?
> 
> Hope you get it sorted out easy.


Good idea, maybe a solid pipe welded to the tank which could take good quality rubber pipe with a bleed nipple on the end, and while at it why not sort out an extended drain too.

When you done all that apply for a patent.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Bleeding the tank is not the problem. It's the bleeders for the "radiators" for want of a better word, they are behind the seats and the bed head and are built into 90 degree bends, not so simple and if they were extended to where they could be reached they would be visible. I assume that's why they are as they are, Alan.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

erneboy said:


> Bleeding the tank is not the problem. It's the bleeders for the "radiators" for want of a better word, they are behind the seats and the bed head and are built into 90 degree bends, not so simple and if they were extended to where they could be reached they would be visible. I assume that's why they are as they are, Alan.


It's good that you're up to the job Alan, many would have given up and just part exed it by now.

Kev.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*elgin*



 erneboy said:


> Cheers, I emailed the factory this morning and pointed out that this is the second time inside the warranty period. Now that I have started they may not be interested but they are decent people so I will wait and see what they say. I am doing the work myself to save the bother of leaving the van with a dealer and having to pay for the labour. Unfortunately it's a job I have become familiar with due to problems both with the boiler and the water heater.
> 
> Knowing how hard the heating system is to bleed I took it to an Eberspacher dealer in Spain last winter when the heater failed. They spent an afternoon on it and were unable to bleed it, they suggested the heater was faulty to get me to go away, so having paid them for their abortive efforts I ended up doing it myself anyway. Have come to the conclusion that doing it yourself is best, then at least you know what has been done.
> 
> I am aware of the difficulty but the guy I am taking it to fabricates stuff in stainless so I have high hopes, Alan.


How have you gone one Alan?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

No Trev. I got the old one welded locally and refitted it. I think I will get another because these problems always crop up at holiday times. Right now Elgena are closed for several weeks, Alan.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

To complete this thread I thought I should add this which I posted on another thread asking for help in identifying the domestic water connections to my boiler. They are rather unusual and were difficult to find. The big problem was the olive pictured below. The ones I eventually got had the correct internal diameter but were too big on the outside, easily turned down using a drill and a file. A small bolt and a few 10mm washers in the olive held the olives centrally to allow me to turn them down.

Here is that post:

As Ian suggested it seems to be a fitting which is exclusive to Caleffi.

I eventually found it thanks to lots of help from Pamela at Spatec NI Ltd.

Here is a link to the Caleffi catalogue should anyone else need it. The olive cannot be supplied on it's own but can be seen as part of several fittings, the first being on page 12. I hope it is the right thing, I will get it on Tuesday and will post how it goes refitting the boiler which has now been welded locally. I will pressurise the boiler for testing today.

http://www.caleffi.com/en_IT/caleffi/Files/giudes/files/2010_sezione_12_GB.pdf

There do seem to lots of rather specialist things on this van. Usually that's not a problem because most things are quite reliable, however this boiler has been a pain in the ass, Alan.

It's worth mentioning that these olives cannot be bought on their own. They come as part or a complete fitting (and can be found in several fittings in the catalogue) but at just a few pounds each that was no big problem. If buying these just be certain that the internal diameter is correct for your job. Mine were 10mm ID.

This information may never matter to anyone but I hope it will help effect a speedy repair should anyone else find themselves with a leaky Elgena boiler.

I have now done a deal with Elgena for a spare boiler and the little thermostat attached to it as my thermostat also failed recently. I expect that if I carry a spare I won't ever need it, sods law.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Is it just the angle of the pic or is that a one sided olive.

Glad you've managed to find a solution.


Kev.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Maybe this will help Kev. It's conical (olive shaped) on one side and flat on the other so an O ring can seat against it. The inside diameter (hole to fit over a 10mm pipe) is 10mm or just a little more, and the diameter of the flat on mine is 17mm, Alan.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks Alan, i have to ask next I suppose, why did they go to extent of using something so obscure and obviously complex, was the designer frightened by a plumber or something, would an ordinary compression fitting not have worked, if it'd been my boiler I'd have found him and hit him very hard with it.

As you appear to know it inside out, I assume, there was no way to modify or change the fitting.

Kev.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

A 10mm compression T would not do the job but it would be very difficult to remove, the problem is that it needs to be removable to strip the end cover off the boiler should it need to accessed for repair. Also the outlet needs to point upwards to fit in the locker.

It needs to be a T because there is a connection between the hot outlet and cold inlet on the boiler via a thermostatic valve in order to mix the hot and cold to set the temperature the user wants at the hot tap. Without that the hot tap would be delivering water at 80 degrees C. You could probably get used to being careful to always mix hot and cold at the tap but it would be dangerous for anyone who didn't know about it. 

Considering the possible danger and the likely need to do a further repair at some time in the future I decided not to make a semi permanent connection.

I could have left the front cover off the boiler or cut part of it away but the insulation is truly excellent and cutting would have looked untidy. If we turn the heater off at bed time there is always plenty of hot water for showers in the morning so I didn't want to compromise the insulation. Also the boiler is below the kitchen work top, there is a radiator directly above the boiler and vents to allow the heat into the kitchen area. Leaving the front off or cutting it would have increased the temperature in the kitchen all the time when there was hot water in the tank. It can already get hot enough at times so I didn't want that.

So apart from the faults with this particular boiler, which I think was badly welded from new, the system is excellent and very well thought out and I wouldn't want to detract from that, Alan.


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## bigtree (Feb 3, 2007)

I have the Alde system in my Frankia and found one of the rubber elbows with bleed valve leaking,the supplying dealer just sent me Alde UK's details and left me to it.I could not find the drain valve,Frankia were hopeless.Alde UK sent me a replacement and I got it replaced while work was getting done on my van at a French dealership.Eventually found the drain T piece hiding behind a grille on the r/hand side of the entry step,bl***y stupid location as it barely can be pulled beyond the hole when the grille is removed.So it would be the same as Alan's situation of liquid going all over the place when draining.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Luckily my drain point is in a locker where I can get a washing up bowl below it but it seems random where they fit them.

I too found Frankia unhelpful to say the least, Alan.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

It beggers belief how they get away if all theses bad layouts and designs, I'm starting to think that a lot of the gear fitted was OK until it was fitted badly and in the wrong places by the money grabbing manufacturers.

And why we let them get away with it is a whole new topic for someone to start.

You never ever hear of self builders complaining about the build quality :lol: :lol: 

Kev.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

My damned boiler was leaking again last night.

The good news is I didn't trust it so went to Munich to the Elgena factory and picked up a new one last September and had it as a spare. I must admit that due to having a spare I had half expected the new one not to be needed.

Any way I am getting good at this job so the new one is now fitted and leak free.

Just got to bleed the heating now and no matter how many times I have to do that it is still an absolute sod of a job.

Wish me luck with that please.

I may send the original boiler back to Elgena. It has a five year warranty and is not yet five years old and frankly the welding is pure crap. They weren't interested in even discussing the warranty when I bought the new one. They seem to be under the impression that I have been using some sort of corrosive chemical additive in the water. Hardly likely when it's the water we wash and shower in!

Alan.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

erneboy said:


> Wish me luck with that please.
> 
> I may send the original boiler back to Elgena. It has a five year warranty and is not yet five years old and frankly the welding is pure crap. They weren't interested in even discussing the warranty when I bought the new one. They seem to be under the impression that I have been using some sort of corrosive chemical additive in the water. Hardly likely when it's the water we wash and shower in!
> 
> Alan.


Good luck with the bleeding system :wink: and good luck with sending it back.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks Kev. All done now.

It's probably worth mentioning for others having to bleed these Alde type circulated hot water systems that one big problem is that as you get towards the end you want to run the heating to check whether it's working. If you have got most of the air out then it should run without cutting out due to overheating.

If there is still too much air in the system you will hear the pump, for want of a better word screeching, as an air pocket arrives in it allowing it to spin with nothing to pump or to cool it. The heater will over heat and cut out quite quickly if this allowed to continue so switch it off and allow it to cool while to try to bleed the air pocket out of the system. Then you can try running it again.

Be very careful doing this as some heaters, my Eberspacher Hydronic included will only allow a few overheating cut outs before they lock you out and need resetting which requires the correct test equipment. So avoid overheating cut outs at all costs, the screeching from the heater pump will warn you that it's imminent.

The pump in the heater seems to have the ability to whip the water/antifreeze mixture into a froth. Bleeding the froth out of the system is very difficult. 

I have concluded that the best way to bleed is to simply use water to fill the system following a disassembly and use just water till you get it running and well bled.

Later, when all is running as it should you can run some water off and refill with the correct coolant/antifreeze. Do that by running the water off from one of the high up bleed screws and adding antifreeze to replace it. It's slow but it's a lot easier than trying to bleed the foam out. 

I have been told that anti foam antifreeze can be bought. I haven't found any but will do some more research on that. It would be interesting to know if the recommended products contain an anti foaming agent.

I hope these pointers may be of some use to someone, Alan.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

erneboy said:


> Thanks Kev. All done now.
> 
> It's probably worth mentioning for others having to bleed these Alde type circulated hot water systems that one big problem is that as you get towards the end you want to run the heating to check whether it's working. If you have got most of the air out then it should run without cutting out due to overheating.
> 
> ...


Probably a daft suggestion but seems logical to me :roll:

Would it be possible to introduce a loop into the system with a high point in it like ceiling height, this would give you a better point to bleed the system, maybe in the back of a wardrobe, with a hose from the bleed nipple (oooh Knickers Kn*ckers Knockers) sorry Les pooped in, down to some sort of receptacle a pan for instance it'd warm up the clothes too.

Just a thought.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes Kev, good idea. I can't think where to do it right now but will give some thought for the future.

Or I could attach a hose so as to force the water in. The problem with that would be connecting it securely and then collecting the water coming out of the bleeders. We have five bleeders and three of them are stupidly positioned as shown in the photograph. Also they are designed so that a pipe can't be attached to them. Thoughtless design, but then what's new about that? Alan.


Edit the photo doesn't show it very well but the top of the bleeder is just at the height of the rail at the back of the seat and there is no space to fit a container of any sort in there.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

erneboy said:


> Yes Kev, good idea. I can't think where to do it right now but will give some thought for the future.
> 
> Or I could attach a hose so as to force the water in. The problem with that would be connecting it securely and then collecting the water coming out of the bleeders. We have five bleeders and three of them are stupidly positioned as shown in the photograph. Also they are designed so that a pipe can't be attached to them. Thoughtless design, but then what's new about that? Alan.
> 
> Edit the photo doesn't show it very well but the top of the bleeder is just at the height of the rail at the back of the seat and there is no space to fit a container of any sort in there.


Taking the one pictured as an example it looks like a crimped band holding the nipple (stop it) into the hose, I've removed them on cars before and used those nail pulling pliers to fit a new one so in theory you could just extend that or maybe swap it to the end of an extension and put a little 1/4 turn valve there with the bleeder at the end and once bled remove the extended bit, either re-use on the others or make one for each NNNNNNippplllee :wink:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes Kev. Thinking about it I could just drill a decent hole through the timber in front of the bleeder and insert a tube with one end blocked and the side cut out of it so that it can bleed and run into a small container or plastic bottle. I may do that now for the next time, Alan.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

erneboy said:


> Yes Kev. Thinking about it I could just drill a decent hole through the timber in front of the bleeder and insert a tube with one end blocked and the side cut out of it so that it can bleed and run into a small container or plastic bottle. I may do that now for the next time, Alan.


I have a nice warm glow now Alan, mostly due to being out in the bloody cold weather on my knees securing our new greenhouse, my back & knees are killing me as Liz has just reminded me we didn't have our morning drug round :roll: :roll:

Glad to have come up with a possible idea to at least make it bearable for you, hope it actually makes a difference.


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## javea (Jun 8, 2007)

Alan, Could you use a slightly modified brake bleeding device to pull the air out, something like this: http://www.tooled-up.com/product/sealey-brake-bleeder-vacuum-type/28811/

Mike


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

javea said:


> Alan, Could you use a slightly modified brake bleeding device to pull the air out, something like this: http://www.tooled-up.com/product/sealey-brake-bleeder-vacuum-type/28811/
> 
> Mike


Were you looking over my soldier, I was just Ebaying the same idea, great minds think alike, i'm not sure if it would work though.


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## javea (Jun 8, 2007)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> javea said:
> 
> 
> > Alan, Could you use a slightly modified brake bleeding device to pull the air out, something like this: http://www.tooled-up.com/product/sealey-brake-bleeder-vacuum-type/28811/
> ...


Didn't know you had an army Kev!  

Delighted to be thinking the same way as you though. 

Mike


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

javea said:


> Kev_n_Liz said:
> 
> 
> > javea said:
> ...


You'll not find many saying that on here :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I care not a jot


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

You are both right. Here is the answer. I will order three and have them ready for the next time.

Edit, or at least part of the answer, the bleeder Mile links to might complete the job nicely.


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