# Change Cigarette lighter to permanent live



## lifeson

I have a Autotrail based on the Fiat ducato and on the dash are two 12v sockets.
Both of them are only live when the ignition is on, but it would be really usefull if I could make one of them to bypass the ignition and be permanently live.

In my simplistic view is it a matter of finding the associated relay and joining the relay switched cables so they do not rely on the ignition switching the relay? or is there an easier way?


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## Addie

What are you wanting to power?

There is a permanent live in the Radio loom not far away, I have in the past tapped straight into this for small items or to make a hard wired charging cable for a Sat Nav for instance. If you put too much load on it, the fuse will blow so in that sense it is a protected circuit. 

In addition the battery is not far away (under the cab floor) - it wouldn't take much effort to take a cable from here and either re-wire or wire in an additional socket somewhere under the dash making sure to put a fuse in-line somewhere.

I would leave ignition / relays well alone.


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## lifeson

Its only for a media player and ipod s etc so low load.
I hadnt even thought about connecting directly to the vehicle battery - routing cables from there should be easier than the leisure battery.


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## Stanner

Haven't you got a 12v socket that runs off the leisure battery? It's usually behind the TV somewhere often in the same panel as the aerial socket. I just have a 3 way "cigar lighter" extension socket plugged into that for all the things that need 12v.

Like this
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ring-Automo...043Y/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1299622962&sr=8-9


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## TerryL

By coincidence I've today picked up the van after it's annual visit to the dealer for hab check, service & MOT. I asked if they could do the same thing but the technician did not want to do it in case it interfered with the engine management system - can't quite see how it would but I told him to leave it.

Reason was that I wanted to plug in a portable solar panel to keep the engine battery "warm" whilst the van was stored. I had actually wired up an additional socket direct to the battery - properly fused and protected I hasten to add - but would have felt happier using the built in socket. I've just put that system back in, taking care to route and protect the cables.

And before anyone decries small portable solar panels, it worked very well, never had any problems this winter unlike last year when I had to carry jump leads with me all the time. The van does face south when parked however, so that helps!


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## Stanner

TerryL said:


> I asked if they could do the same thing but the technician did not want to do it in case it interfered with the engine management system - can't quite see how it would but I told him to leave it.


Modern vans have Canbus electrical systems which is a bit like a computer network in that the same wires go to every component and they are then switched on and off by coded signals from the ECU not just by turning power on and off through individual circuits.

Nowadays EVERYTHING affects the ECU if they go wrong.

http://www.canbuskit.com/what.php


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## Pudsey_Bear

Locate rear of ciggy lighter, trace wires as far as poss, cut and tape securely the end of the wires not attached to lighter to prevent any short circuit.

Extend wires from lighter to battery, central connection in lighter body is usually + positive use adequate fuses, and use correct size grommets when going through bulkhead, to prevent chafing and possible short circuits with bare,

If you have no experience, leave well alone and get an auto electrician to do it.


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## lifeson

Stanner said:


> Haven't you got a 12v socket that runs off the leisure battery? It's usually behind the TV somewhere often in the same panel as the aerial socket. I just have a 3 way "cigar lighter" extension socket plugged into that for all the things that need 12v.
> 
> Like this
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ring-Automo...043Y/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1299622962&sr=8-9


Amazingly there is only 1 permanent 12v socket in the whole van! and that is in the bedroom area. I need a live 12v socket in the lounge/cab area


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## Rosbotham

TerryL said:


> . I asked if they could do the same thing but the technician did not want to do it in case it interfered with the engine management system - can't quite see how it would but I told him to leave it.


Funnily enough I asked the question for my old van (Peugeot Boxer X/250-based) and got the same answer...in essence as Stanner says the presence of CANBUS meant they didn't want to go anywhere near it, even if only to cap-off a switched 12V feed to the ciggie lighter.

We'd noticed that it was a bit of a hole in the featurelist of our Autotrail that the only 12V socket is in the bedroom. Haven't done anything about it yet, but had been considering asking dealer to fit one in lounge next time it's in there.

However, back to the original question, on ATs isn't the radio head unit fed from the leisure battery? I'd always assumed so, because it provides the sound for the entertainment system and can be on all the time when you're on site...it'd concern me if it was fed from the vehicle because sooner or later there wouldn't be the juice left to start the van when one comes to leave. If that's the case, that'd imply an easily accessible permanent/fused 12V connection behind the dash. Whether you want to tinker with the existing wiring into the CANBUS is a separate issue...

Paul


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## Jezport

Easiest way is to get a new cig socket. Buy a 20A capable one and drill a hole in the seat base near to fit it. Then run a cable directly to the battery. Fit a fuse at the battery end for protection. A 20 minute job.


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## peejay

On our van, when the fitter was installing a new radio for me, he wired the radio to the leisure battery and also wired both of the 12v cigar sockets in the cab directly to the leisure battery as well, I use the sockets all the time for 12v accessories and charge my laptop and shaver via a cokecan inverter with no worries about flattening the veh battery. 
Only took him about an hour all in.

Pete


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## tuvalu

Hi
I saw a solution on the motorhome list. It consisted of a simple bridge in the fuse box. Items required were 2 short insulated wires, 2 crimp type small spade connectors and 2 small female connectors. 

F---female connector----wire----spade connector 
U 
S 
E---female connector----wire----spade connector 

The spade connectors need to be filed down to the size of the fuse leg.

Remove fuse to Aux socket ( cigarette lighter ) plug reshaped spade connector which now has a short length of wire attached and a female connector into the r/hand socket that the fuse came out of. Do the same with the other made up wire putting it in a L/hand socket that is not controlled by the ignition switch. Put the orginal fuse into the 2 female connectors and you have a permanent live Aux socket. A bit of heat shrink insulation or covers to suit would be good. I did this on my 2006 Fiat. If at anytime you need to return it to it's original state, just remove wires and put the fuse back.

(sorry I can't credit the person who posted the solution)

You do the above at your own risk. I take no responsiblity what so ever. 

Regards

Phil


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## Codfinger

The guys down at Essanjay m/h did a simple mod in the fuse box on our 2.8jtd for me to have both sockets live.
Chris


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## tikki

Codfinger said:


> The guys down at Essanjay m/h did a simple mod in the fuse box on our 2.8jtd for me to have both sockets live.
> Chris


Did this around 6 years ago when we first bought our Midas. Got the instructions on how to do it from some website - but can't remember where!
However, I know I printed them out and they are in the 'van somewhere. I'll look them up in the morning.

I only made one 12v socket always live. It was quite simple and involved making a 'bridge' in the fuse box from a permanant live supply to the 12v socket.

Chris


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## Pudsey_Bear

Sounds way to complicated for a novice to do.

Direct from the battery via fuses and grommets is much simpler and does not touch the original wiring, except on the lighter itself.


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## tikki

Found the instructions - not sure if they apply to the latest models.
I've only converted the 12v socket but both can be done.

_Fiat Ducato post 2002

Parts needed:
2 leads of 1.5mm flex each with a female spade socket on one end and a small male spade plug on the other end - all fully insulated.
1 lead approx. 50mm long.
1 lead approx. 75mm long.

Method:
Remove the fuse cover from the lower left hand side of the dashboard.
Use the Ducato manual to identify the correct fuse position for the 12v socket. (No 44 for 12v or No 52 for cigarette lighter)
Remove the fuse for this 12v socket.
Insert spade of one lead in to the BOTTOM of this fuse position.
Insert spade of other lead into TOP of fuse position 36 or 62. (there may well be no bottom socket in these fuse positions).
Insert blade fuse removed earlier into female sockets of the leads.
Tuck the leads away tidily and refit fuse cover_


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## Techno100

Looks exactly the same as 2004 boxer :thumbup:


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## tikki

Techno100 said:


> Looks exactly the same as 2004 boxer :thumbup:


Yes - should have said that mine is a 2004 Boxer but the writer of the instructions had a Ducato.
The fuse arrangements appear to be identical.


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## andrewball1000

Thanks Tikki, what a neat solution. I was wanting to change a cig socket to permanent live last year. My reason was different in that I wanted to be able to leave a small dashboard type solar charger connected to the car battery while I was away on an extended trip in the van. Also to swap them over while the van was not being used to keep the starter battery topped up. I gave up after researching the car as it became too complicated. This is so simple and doesn't involve removing dash panels etc, that I might consider it again.

Thanks
Andrew


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## Stanner

Techno100 said:


> Looks exactly the same as 2004 boxer :thumbup:


It is identical because the van is identical, as is a Citroen Relay.

All built in the same factory on the same line, only the badges (and some options apparently) differ.


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## Techno100

Thanks again Tikki . I just added this feature to my 180watt power socket after finally getting it to work at all. The handbook for my boxer is wrong. SEE HERE
I can stop upsetting my Garmin now with interupted supply


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## 747

Thanks for this info tikki, it will make life easier as I use an 8 watt dashboard solar panel and have to run the lead out of the door and under the bonnet at the moment.

Just a cautionary tale. I recently stripped down the dashboard and noticed that the wiring to the 12 volt power socket was very thin. No more than 0.75 mm sq. section. To my mind, this is far too small for a socket rated at 180 watts (or 15 amps). 8O


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## Techno100

The bridge of a 15 amp fuse is considerably smaller :wink:

0.75mm is rated at 14 amps I suspect it will probably be a little larger or an awg size supect 14awg


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## Techno100

A very good point to make tho 747. Such close tolerances make it vitally important to NEVER put a bigger fuse size in ANY auto electric circuit.


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## Techno100

Easiest way to knock this up is with
one of these and some of these


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## sideways

Do nut cut,join,tap into or in anyway mess with canbus wiring which can be found on most post 06 vehicles. The simplest way to make any additions is to make your own little loom and connect directlly to the battery.


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## 747

Just an update on this mod.

I already had a fused lead like the one Techno100 has and I utilised it for this mod. My cigar lighter was fuse 52 and rated at 20 amps. They are mini-fuses and the spade terminals I bought were way too big for this job.

I had some 'bootlace' type crimp terminals left over from my working days and I found these to be perfect to use for this mod. I crimped them to the fused lead and flattened the ends with pliers. This made them a tight push in fit to the fusebox. if anyone is contemplating doing this, I heartily recommend them.

I only fitted a 10 amp fuse back into the circuit as I mainly wanted a way to use my dashboard solar panel via the cigar lighter. I only ever use the cigar lighter for the satnav and occasionally charging a phone or AA rechargeable batteries.

The other cigar lighter socket (rated at 180 watts) is not connected. When I had the dash stripped out, it became unplugged. I used to be pretty good at 'The Krypton Factor' but I gave up trying to find the socket for it. If anyone knows, please come and refit it.


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## FoweyBoy

I followed Tikki's very useful guide and it worked fine. My fuses were incorrectly numbered in the Peugeot manual. I ended up cutting my blue spades to half width to fit in the fuse box slots. I then used a 15amp larger sized fuse, instead of the 15amp mini-fuse as the spades on the larger fuse fitted neatly into my blue sockets.

Thanks Tikki.


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## tikki

FoweyBoy said:


> I followed Tikki's very useful guide and it worked fine........... I ended up cutting my blue spades to half width to fit in the fuse box slots....
> 
> Thanks Tikki.


FoweyBoy - Perhaps I should have said right at the start that I did exactly that!
I decided "on the spur of the moment" to carry out this job and couldn't get hold of the mini connectors locally. 

I did use a mini fuse but 'plugged' it in to the larger size female sockets after I'd nipped them together a little. I've since replaced the mini fuse with a standard sized one.

Chris


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## Christine600

sideways said:


> Do nut cut,join,tap into or in anyway mess with canbus wiring which can be found on most post 06 vehicles. The simplest way to make any additions is to make your own little loom and connect directlly to the battery.


Do the habitation electrics also use canbus wiring do you think?


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## FoweyBoy

You need an expert to advise. My Nuevo is 2005 and does not have a canbus, as far as I am aware!


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## FoweyBoy

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25515

Check out this post for a potential pitfall if you have an Autosleeper motorhome.


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## Whiskeymac

I'm surprised that, unless I missed it, nobody pointed out that the fusebox bridging solution results in power being taken from the vehicle battery. Personally I don't mind as my charging apparatus recharges both batteries and a mobile phone uses very little power on recharge, but it seems to matter to some people.

Very neat and exactly the answer I was seeking. Worth the annual sub!


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## Techno100

It's the whole point of the exercise so it would be stating the obvious. :roll:


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## Whiskeymac

You mean that it is intended to use the vehicle battery for a facility as being preferable. That surprises me. Though so what!


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## Techno100

It used the cab battery via the ignition switch and after the mod if uses the cab battery without being ignition switched. This allows a dashboard mounted solar panel to charge the cab battery via the cigarette lighter socket for one example


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## andrewball1000

Techno100 said:


> It used the cab battery via the ignition switch and after the mod if uses the cab battery without being ignition switched. This allows a dashboard mounted solar panel to charge the cab battery via the cigarette lighter socket for one example


I would love to be able to do this on my car as the battery always goes flat within two weeks while I am away. Also access is difficult to the terminals to jump start. Needed a new battery after the four month trip this year.

Anyone know which fuze layout I could use on a 2003 Toyota Rav 4 nrg???? Thanks


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## Whiskeymac

I'm fully aware of that, however, there were far more examples of people wanting to use power from a battery, not charge a battery, and with no compensating charge from the engine running. It would be normal to use the facilities battery for this, not the cab battery.

As long as this is to keep a phone topped up , or other very low load application, it wouldn't matter, but if a heavier load is used for an extended period, with no compensating battery charging, there is the obvious risk of draining the cab battery and being unable to get the engine started, hence the reason for having a facilities battery. This would be of even greater significance in M/Hs where a static charger doesn't charge the cab battery.


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## Techno100

Perhaps but the were off topic and probably went on to start or join a relevant thread that answered their needs


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## Whiskeymac

Lifeson, who started the thread, dropped out once the subject of using the socket for charging was introduced in the 4th post. That could be interpreted as a highjack since I think Lifeson wanted to use it as a power source. I really don't think it matters. It was a very interesting thread and valuable once all the factors are taken into consideration. It gained value by covering power in and power out in the same thread. In my humble opinion of course!


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## Whiskeymac

For Andrewball1000.

It should be easy enough to identify the fuse for the cig lighter socket, either from the handbook or by removing one fuse at a time until the socket doesn't function. The fuse to bridge to will be one with a hefty fuse value. The one's recommended on the Fiat are 20 amp. Although you are not going to use that fuse, the cable to it will be guaranteed to be meaty enough for your needs. Most easily you could test for non ignition circuit power with a test meter. If you don't have one, any 12 volt device with bare wires will do, one wire to the chassis, the other as a probe.


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## locrep

If it is the X250 type chassis you will see spare spaces on the live battery terminal connector to add a fuse & and the input for your solar panel, going direct to the battery will be the best way of fitting & will not affect the canbus system. 

Dave.


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## andrewball1000

Whiskeymac said:


> For Andrewball1000.
> 
> It should be easy enough to identify the fuse for the cig lighter socket, either from the handbook or by removing one fuse at a time until the socket doesn't function. The fuse to bridge to will be one with a hefty fuse value. The one's recommended on the Fiat are 20 amp. Although you are not going to use that fuse, the cable to it will be guaranteed to be meaty enough for your needs. Most easily you could test for non ignition circuit power with a test meter. If you don't have one, any 12 volt device with bare wires will do, one wire to the chassis, the other as a probe.


Many thanks for that. I could not find a wiring diagram when I tried before so your practical approach makes a lot of sense and I can try it when I get back. I am away at the moment. It will be interesting to see if the new battery will start the car after two weeks! I already have the dashboard solar panel already.

Regards Andrew.


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## Whiskeymac

I meant to add that it seems that all cars now have settings of some sort to preserve, like satnav preferences, radio stations selected, plus alarms and trackers, all consuming power. Thus a battery will always run down if the car is left in normal condition. Best to put it in the garage and disconnect the battery terminals for a prolonged break.


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## andrewball1000

Whiskeymac said:


> I meant to add that it seems that all cars now have settings of some sort to preserve, like satnav preferences, radio stations selected, plus alarms and trackers, all consuming power. Thus a battery will always run down if the car is left in normal condition. Best to put it in the garage and disconnect the battery terminals for a prolonged break.


Yes, I never had the problem on the 95 RAV4 that this one replaced. 174000 miles with plenty to go before I was rear ended and declared a writeoff. Sometimes I feel that progress is not always an improvement.


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## Whiskeymac

I decided to give tikki's fuse bridge a try, with interesting results.

At first I thought that he had made a mistake in his fuse numbering for the cigar lighter and 12v power outlet as my Fiat Ducato handbook has them round the other way, but having bridged to the handbook described power socket fuse position, I found that I had put constant power to the cigar lighter. So tikki 1, Fiat nil!!

Choosing the permanent 12v source was interesting too. The Hymer handbook describes fuse position 36 as "Main fuse for contactpoint load relay". I don't know what that is, but it sounds important. The description of fuse position 62 is"Backup fuse", so I used that. All worked well until I tidied up, locked the door and went to set the alarm. No alarm....nor tracker.

Clearly I can't use these fuse positions unless there is some double bridging wheeze or something. Unless there is another suitable spare fuse position, I think I will have to break the supply wire to the 12v socket and connect to a permanent source via an in-line fuse. Socket set BL5 on the Electroblock EBL 101, described as spare 2, spare 3, spare 4, has several permanently live positions and, presumably, taking power from the living area battery. How does that sound boffins? Does anyone know the power rating for that output block?


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## j50jwr

*Depends on fuse to those positions.*

Hi there,
I am just using spare block location in an EBL 99, to wire some accessories. In mine the supply to the spare ways in the block (#8 in mine) were not fitted with fuses in the fuseboard, so the current rating could be chosen (within reason) 
If you have the handbook for your unit, you should be able to locate the fuse, and therefore rating. If you haven't one try contacting Schaudt, or look in our handy download area.

John


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## Whiskeymac

Taking a step back, does anyone know if in the vehicle fuse box there are any other spare fuses to the two listed earlier, which are permanent 12v?


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## andrewball1000

andrewball1000 said:


> Techno100 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It used the cab battery via the ignition switch and after the mod if uses the cab battery without being ignition switched. This allows a dashboard mounted solar panel to charge the cab battery via the cigarette lighter socket for one example
> 
> 
> 
> I would love to be able to do this on my car as the battery always goes flat within two weeks while I am away. Also access is difficult to the terminals to jump start. Needed a new battery after the four month trip this year.
> 
> Anyone know which fuze layout I could use on a 2003 Toyota Rav 4 nrg???? Thanks
Click to expand...

With the help of the posts here and having found the fuse board Ids, (see pics) I gave this a go today.

I was going to bridge from the Horn to the Cig as the Horn is live when the ignition is off. However I found that the I could only get a reading on the Multimeter when the horn button was depressed which I take to mean that it is upstream of the fuse panel?

Looks like I will have to run a lead from the battery terminals to the solar unless anyone has a better idea? Shame as it is a brilliant solution and I had made up the bridging leads


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## Whiskeymac

Yes me too although I am trying to extract power, not pump it in.

I think if I were you, I would just fit a pair of crocodile clips and run a lead out of the door and under the bonnet to the battery terminals. Not quite as neat but how often are you going to do this? You won't have to look at it as yo'll be away in the van!


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## andrewball1000

Whiskeymac said:


> Yes me too although I am trying to extract power, not pump it in. I think if I were you, I would just fit a pair of crocodile clips and run a lead out of the door and under the bonnet to the battery terminals. Not quite as neat but how often are you going to do this? You won't have to look at it as yo'll be away in the van!


Yes I think you are right. The only problem with this model is that the battery is tucked well under the bonnet up under the windscreen and you have to remove an "external" weather panel to get to the terminals. Not easy if you want to jump start it as I found out. Even the AA hate it and broke 3 retaining clips removing it. Cant believe the designers.

I think I will compromise with your idea by extending some leads from the terminals into the engine bay where they are more accessible.

Thanks Whiskeymac


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## Whiskeymac

Crikey, that sounds a bit extreme. Make sure they are very well insulated or you could have a fire.

Could you clip on to the engine for negative earth connection and the starter terminal for positive? That's hidden away too I suppose.

Stray wires from the battery is really not a wise move. That's why the battery has a cover over the terminals.


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## Techno100

I think I'd wire your solar to the leisure battery and fit a CBE CSB2 or a battery master. It's only money :lol:


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## Whiskeymac

Techno100 said:


> I think I'd wire your solar to the leisure battery and fit a CBE CSB2 or a battery master. It's only money :lol:


Andrew wants to keep his car battery charged whilst he's away in his motorhome. It doesn't have a leisure battery!


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## Techno100

Ahh Doh!


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