# Seat Belt Law - Advice Needed



## twinky (Aug 11, 2008)

OK - I know this as been covered before but I hope you dont mind if I raise this issue again. I have seached and read through some of the later posts on this subject but I am having difficulty relating them to my circumstance.

My m/h is a 5 berth but has only 4 seat belts - 2 in the cab and 2 forward facing in the back. I understand the law as it is today but I am unsure about how I will stand in May 2009 when the law changes.

As I understand it after May:-
If the vehicle has NO belts in the back there will not be a requirement to fit them.
If the vehicle has ANY belts in the back ALL pasengers will be required to belt up.
If this is correct I will need to fit at least 1 extra belt right?

If this is so and there are no purposely designed/tested mounting points I would suggest that this could be nigh on impossible without massive expense by the vast majority of m/h owners in the country. Any company attempting to fit even lap belts to an untested position would surely leave themselves open to major liability problems in the event of a failure of this point? 
Therfore my question is what is everyone else doing?


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Unless the 5th person travels seperatly get used to the idea that you have a 4 berth :roll:


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## twinky (Aug 11, 2008)

'Unless the 5th person travels seperatly get used to the idea that you have a 4 berth'

Thats a joke - yeah?


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

> Thats a joke - yeah?


We'eeell, how do you decide who will be in the suicide seat, without a belt, today?
Your youngest, your oldest. the girl or your wife?


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## Rislar (Aug 16, 2008)

aultymer said:


> > Thats a joke - yeah?
> 
> 
> We'eeell, how do you decide who will be in the suicide seat, without a belt, today?
> Your youngest, your oldest. the girl or your wife?


 :lol:


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## twinky (Aug 11, 2008)

Aultymer

Dont get me wrong I am not advocating the use of my motorhome by unrestrained passengers. I am as keen as anyone to have PROPERLY installed belts. My point is that many people will have substandard installations (either DIY or not) and that is as good as having none.


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

Twinky - I was supporting you!!


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## twinky (Aug 11, 2008)

Sos mate :wink:


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

> Sos mate Wink


'Same old sh1t' does not answer the question. Who are you willing to sacrifice?


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## twinky (Aug 11, 2008)

No I meant to type soz - as in sorry - same old sh1t is not an acronym I'm aware of.


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

Now everyone knows it!!


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## Jagman (Feb 16, 2008)

As you say twinky, a big problem.

Firstly I simply don't know what the law will say from May 2009 but assuming we would all want the fifth person to be belted in somehow the answer has got to be on a rear facing dinette seat, unless the mh has a third foward facing seat, as some have. Side facing seats are obviously out of the equation.

Thoughts (and only thoughts!) on rear facing seats are:

1. there are people who will fit lap belts to these positions eg towtal

2. the basic wooden box structure of the rear facing dinette seat could be strengthened with metal bar or sheet suitably bolted to the vertical wooden structure, in order to offer relatively secure fixing points for the lap belts - the aim being to stop the bolts ripping right through the wood in the event of a big impact

3. someone will surely offer this service because there will be a lot of mhers out there who will need it if the law demands belts all round

4. handy people will probably do it for themselves

5. mhers will not want to leave part of their family behind or put anyone in the 'suicide seat' so 'safe' rear facing lap belts must be the solution and our job is to find out how to achieve this end - MHF is probably the best community to achieve this

and one final thought - you mention 'tested' in the context of designed-in mounting points and I wonder if any sort of testing of rear belts ever takes place in the UK - maybe someone gives them a good tug at the factory but I don't think anything approaching Euro NCAP with crash test dummies etc is undertaken - I hope I'm wrong and that someone comes on to put our minds at rest!

Any +ve ideas out there?


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## twinky (Aug 11, 2008)

Jagman

With respect to your last point I'm sure I've read somewhere that there is a standard (EN,BS or ISO) regarding the testing loads required for mounting points that either m/h manufacturers or 3rd party installers/designers must comply with. The figure I have in mind is 1.3 tonnes for a set period of time - but dont quote me.

If this is correct how can any aftermarket installer reasonably prove that their work complies with this?


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

I understand Hymer is the only motorhome manufacturer to have undertaken Euro NCAP tests.
We only have lap belts in the back of our 1991 van but have 4 of them plus the 2, 3 point belts in the front. Not ideal but better than nowt! and would contribute to stopping passengers being ejected in a bad one.
The normally backward facing seat back can be reversed to give a total of 6 forward facing seats. All the lap belts are bolted to a substantial metal frame which is bolted to the chassis and all concealed within the seats.
Then again we only have passengers about 1% of the time the van is used.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

twinky said:


> 'Unless the 5th person travels seperatly get used to the idea that you have a 4 berth'
> 
> Thats a joke - yeah?


No not a joke some people use their motorhomes and indeed caravans that way. They regard the 'berth' figure as the sleeping, lounging and dining arrangement figure and the number of seat belts as the travelling figure.

Attaching seat belts to strengthened wooden structure wouldn't meet the requirements for seat belt anchorage.


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## Jagman (Feb 16, 2008)

Thanks for moving this good thread forward twinky and Frank - we've reached the key issue of 'approved anchorage points' for belts. Frank you seem to know about this and doubt the 'strengthened wooden structure' suggestion, and twinky you have mentioned a probable 'standard' so we need to find out: 

a. exactly what the standard is
b. how it is tested
c. what structural solution could be applied to after-market belt anchorage points that would make them compliant

can anyone help?


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## buttons (Dec 19, 2005)

aultymer said:


> I understand Hymer is the only motorhome manufacturer to have undertaken Euro NCAP tests.


No aultymer not the only one euro NCAP tested 
My van was also tested, It will carry five all in fully tested belted seats one of which is incorporated into a removable seat with armrests and swivel base too.

If you were to apply that test to a reinforced wooden seat base. The reinforced part would probably hold long after the wood box section was ripped from it's fixings. It is only as strong as its weakest point.

Why do people only care about the safety of passengers when it becomes law? was this not a concern before?


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## NEV3 (Feb 7, 2007)

Have only just picked up on this thread this morning so have not read any of the previous threads on this subject yet, so I apologise if I'm covering old ground. 
This subject has raised some serious concerns for me as my M/H has only two forward facing three point belts; but has hree SIDE FACING LAP BELTS!! As I don't encourage "guests" whilst on the move, the side facing belts have never been used. 
While accepting that these side facing seats are not advisable or safe for use during transit; how legal are they? My M/H goes through it's MOT at a government run test station and they don't appear to even look at these side facing belted seats.
Any comments?

NEV3


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## Pusser (May 9, 2005)

Isn't there the problem of what the Insurance company views your motorhome as and also the problem as I understand it that the police have the power to decide irrespective of any particular law that you are driving in an unsafe condition.


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## Vinnythehat (Dec 11, 2007)

Hi everyone
In reply to NEV3's comments on side facing seat belts(lap type), I'm sure I have read previously on the forum that they are totally illegal, due to the human body not naturally bending from the waist to the side, which in a 'normal' road traffic accident ie, front or rear collision, the forces put on the body in the wrong direction would cause more injury than possibly being un-restrained....I'm someone out there knows all the ins and outs more precisely that this though....over to you...
Vinny


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

> My van was also tested,


Sorry if I misled anyone. As far as I know Hymer is the only MOTORHOME manufacturer to have undertaken an ENCAP test but other vans have been tested in their original unconverted form eg VW T5 has been tested as an MPV but without the extra weight and hazard of converters additions.

Sorry for temp hi-jack.


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## twinky (Aug 11, 2008)

Nev3 I believe your side mounted seats are legal now and from 2009. I seem to recall reading that although not desirable they are better than nothing in the event of a crash. If they did make it illegal there would be many Landrover Defenders for starters that would have to be altered, never mind the 1000's of minibuses with side seats.

I will try to search around later for the article when I have more time.

The good news for me is that I have had a look under the rear facing seats and found tapped holes which are obviously designed for lapbelts. Why they didnt put them from new I'm not sure! However I can now belt 6 without botching or enormous expense.

Buttons I'm sure people today are far more safety concious than they have ever been. As a child I never remember wearing a seatbelt and routinely climbed between the front and back seats. Today I dont move off the drive without everyone 'clicked in' in my car.

Safety as always been a concern which is why I am trying to sort this out before even moving a wheel.
The main reason for bringing this subject up again is because I KNOW there are many m/hs out there carrying more passengers than seatbelts, and many of those will not be aware of the change in the law or the difficulty they will have in complying with it.
Its all to easy for us to condemn people for not being concerned about safety until a change in the law but I think people should sometimes be allowed to make their own decisions in life rather than the state nannying all the time. 

Rant over.


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## vardy (Sep 1, 2006)

My van is able to seat 4 including driver, in forward facing seats. Ideally I would like it to seat 5. - Was toying with the idea of trying to get 2 side facing lap belts when offside seating arranged as couch - whilst keeping all original 3 point fitments for when seats forward. Had thought this was going to be legal - but now worried that it would not comply/or be dangerous. 

- Now well confused.


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## Jagman (Feb 16, 2008)

re. the side bench lap belt issue Vinny is right as far as the risks of injury caused by the belt itself are concerned and there is the further issue of the side passengers banging into each other and/or hard parts of the van's interior should the impact cause rapid 'forward' deceleration which it probably would as most shunts involve a powerful front or back end collision initially. It the same as normally belted occupants being subject to a violent side impact of the T-bone variety which invariably negates the forward restraining protection of the belts because the people hit the side interior of the vehicle - violent side impact of skull against door frame or fellow passenger's skull being potentially very serious. Side air bags have been developed to reduce this sort of injury.

The crew bus sort of seating arrangement, belts or no belts, has been banned in school minibuses for many years after a series of nasty incidents culminating with a horrendous accident in the midlands when teacher and minibus full of kids perished.

I wouldn't entertain side facing seat as safe for travel even with belts, I don't know about legality, I just don't think its safe.

What I still don't understand is why someone doesn't advertise the safe fitting service, compliant with whatever standards there are, that we are seeking. It might be expensive if it involves steel fabrication but mh-ers will spend well over £1000 on a satellite system, £600 on underseal, £300 on towbar or reversing camera, or whatever - so what price passenger safety?

I'll contact ICE at Loughborough University and see if they are able to shed any light on standards etc and post back if they reply to me

Glad to hear your good news twinky, but remember if you found those locations in the first place we wouldn't have this thread so I'm glad you posted before discovering them


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## vardy (Sep 1, 2006)

Dear Jagman,

Thank you so much for your lengthy and serious reply. I had seen various snippets posing 'is it safe or isn't it?' on an ongoing basis, with all manner of opinions.

- Which got me at it every time mulling over the incidence of risk v leave someone behind. Favorable comments often leading me towards considering an adaptation. 

It's easy without seeing it spelled out, to be swayed to seek new work adding belts/strengtheners etc., without admitting the stark physics of the thing.

Your graphic account of the dangers has put paid permanently to the plan - odd man out will definitely be on the bus!!!!

Thank you again for your trouble. - Helena.


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## timbop37 (Jun 28, 2006)

I would not advocate seatbelts fitted to side-facing bench seats, no matter how substantial and secure the subframe. The injuries occurring from this seat arrangement can be very severe.

We had lapbelts fitted to our rear-facing seats. They are secured to a steel subframe and are as secure as the two forward-facing seatbelts opposite. Towtal, the company that fitted them would not fit 3 point belts to these seats as the mountings would not be safe or secure.

There have been many threads on this subject and the overwhelming theme has been of personal choice and common sense with regards to safety. This is in addition to the law, as it stands. We only use the lapbelts for occasional use.


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## timbop37 (Jun 28, 2006)

I would not advocate seatbelts fitted to side-facing bench seats, no matter how substantial and secure the subframe. The injuries occurring from this seat arrangement can be very severe.

We had lapbelts fitted to our rear-facing seats. They are secured to a steel subframe and are as secure as the two forward-facing seatbelts opposite. Towtal, the company that fitted them would not fit 3 point belts to these seats as the mountings would not be safe or secure.

There have been many threads on this subject and the overwhelming theme has been of personal choice and common sense with regards to safety. This is in addition to the law, as it stands. We only use the lapbelts for occasional use.


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## jhelm (Feb 9, 2008)

Not exactly on the subject but close, our Hymer manual tells us to remove the table when traveling. There is a fitting to put it in on the overcab bed. They say it's because it might fly around in an accident, but I also image that in the seat with only a lap belt one's head would make a nice dent in the table and ruin it, both table and head.

I'm guessing that most people just leave the table in while traveling. Ours only has 4 seat belts in total, the two in front and the two in the forward facing rear seat only one of the rear seats has a shoulder strap.


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## twinky (Aug 11, 2008)

jhelm

Your post illustrates an important side issue regarding all this.

That of personal risk. 

The last 20 years of in-car safety development have been enormous and I obviously welcome that. However the same cannot be said of motorhome safety.

So what do we do? Wait until m/hs have side and front airbags for all? Crumple zones?

Personally I have made the decision that the occupants of my m/h should all be restrained - ideally in a load rated position - but after that if I thought to deeply about the dangers I'd sell it because I'd never use it.

You could go on forever worrying about this and that.

Now............... complying with the law............is not a personal choice.


Bain Marie Rodney, Bain Marie................................ as Del Trotter would say.


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## 104817 (May 29, 2007)

There was an excellent article on this in one of the mags recently, I'll look it out if I can. Sideways facing seatbelt law is in conflict between here and Europe. One law states they are acceptable, another law or at least guidance, states they are dangerous and advises against their use. I believe that after 2009 only belted seats can be used for travel, no matter what age the motorhome is.

Phil


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