# The dreaded Clutch Judder



## 100127

I have a 2007 Ducato 2.2 and are experiencing the clutch judder in reverse. ( I know its old hat ). Took it to my Fiat dealer who confirmed it. Rang Fiat customer support who gave me a case number, only to be told a few days later that it is only the 2.3's they are fixing. Not the 2.2's or the 3ltr. Anyone had their 2.2 fixed by Fiats as I need some ammo.

Cheers


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## erneboy

Sorry to hear that, Fiat have agreed that there is a fault only in the 2.3. All other variants are fault free, that is the official line and as far as we know no one has got beyond that. I suspect that one or two may have but part of the deal was silence on the topic, Alan.


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## ICDSUN

Bob

From memory it was only the 2.3 6speed that Fiat were fixing, some on Peugeot 2.2 had a new transmission, there were a mix of various transmission/engine combinations but I'm afraid you maybe disappointed with Fiat

They have left all the 3 litre owners out to dry despite widespread reports of judder and clutch failures on low mileage examples

Chris


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## 100127

ICDSUN said:


> Bob
> 
> From memory it was only the 2.3 6speed that Fiat were fixing, some on Peugeot 2.2 had a new transmission, there were a mix of various transmission/engine combinations but I'm afraid you maybe disappointed with Fiat
> 
> They have left all the 3 litre owners out to dry despite widespread reports of judder and clutch failures on low mileage examples
> 
> Chris


Thanks Chris, guessed it would be like that. My " judder" is slight and livable, but hey ho, if you can get a new flywheel, clutch, and reverse gear, why not go for it.

Bob


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## dikyenfo

I am so glad I got the last one of the old models as although very pertinent to many people the damage has been done and the dream is tarnished.
How can a company just stop fixing faults I really cannot believe it.
What about the aftermarket with so many 250's for sale as used and perfect.
If the case is dead then all anyone can do is have an electrical fire in some desserted spot and try and recoup as much cash from the insurance company.
This is an impasse is'nt it?


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## 100127

sysinfo said:


> ICDSUN said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bob
> 
> From memory it was only the 2.3 6speed that Fiat were fixing, some on Peugeot 2.2 had a new transmission, there were a mix of various transmission/engine combinations but I'm afraid you maybe disappointed with Fiat
> 
> They have left all the 3 litre owners out to dry despite widespread reports of judder and clutch failures on low mileage examples
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Chris, guessed it would be like that. My " judder" is slight and livable, but hey ho, if you can get a new flywheel, clutch, and reverse gear, why not go for it.
> 
> Bob
Click to expand...

Oh, and mine is a Ford engine!!!


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## kc10

A few people have told me that its Ford who supply the engine/transmission for the Fiat x250. There are a few notes on here to the same affect, if that's true who's fault is all this, Ford or Fiat? Where the hell are people supposed to go from here? It limits your choice for your next van a lot.


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## rayc

kc10 said:


> A few people have told me that its Ford who supply the engine/transmission for the Fiat x250. There are a few notes on here to the same affect, if that's true who's fault is all this, Ford or Fiat? Where the hell are people supposed to go from here? It limits your choice for your next van a lot.


I thought the 2.3 was an IVECO engine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iveco


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## kc10

Thanks Ray, that's another manufacturer off the list. I recently had my 2.2 Transit serviced in a commercial vehicle servicing centre and the boy told me that the new Renault Master shares its engine (a 2.3) with an Iveco. Do you know anytthing about that?

Keith.


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## emmbeedee

kc10 said:


> A few people have told me that its Ford who supply the engine/transmission for the Fiat x250. There are a few notes on here to the same affect, if that's true who's fault is all this, Ford or Fiat? Where the hell are people supposed to go from here? It limits your choice for your next van a lot.


It may be Ford who supply the 2.2ltr. engine, as this is a joint Ford/Peugeot development, but AFAIK Ford do NOT supply the transmission. In any case if you have problems they will be dealt with by the base vehicle manufacturer, Fiat in this case. Where Fiat sourced the engine may be of passing interest but otherwise is of no concern to you.
The other engines used in the X2/50 (2.3ltr. & 3.0ltr.) are nothing to do with Ford.


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## kc10

emmbeedee said:


> kc10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A few people have told me that its Ford who supply the engine/transmission for the Fiat x250. There are a few notes on here to the same affect, if that's true who's fault is all this, Ford or Fiat? Where the hell are people supposed to go from here? It limits your choice for your next van a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> It may be Ford who supply the 2.2ltr. engine, as this is a joint Ford/Peugeot development, but AFAIK Ford do NOT supply the transmission. In any case if you have problems they will be dealt with by the base vehicle manufacturer, Fiat in this case. Where Fiat sourced the engine may be of passing interest but otherwise is of no concern to you.
> The other engines used in the X2/50 (2.3ltr. & 3.0ltr.) are nothing to do with Ford.
Click to expand...

Well that's the point isn't it? The opening post has the 2.2 Pug/Ford unit and is experiencing problems which Fiat won't accept liability for. This is a mess.

Where an engine comes from and where it ends up is more than a passing interest. If a unit is a dog I want to know about it and who is using it so as I don't end up with one. Anyone who isn't concerned about it could end up in a lot of bother and would be foolish to ignore such information.

Keith


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## Ken38

Things like judder are about the dynamics of the whole package. Often it's things like the mountings of the engine and transmission that allow a judder to set up.

So it's how the whole chassis has been engineered not the supplier of parts.

The fix for the manufacturer may be to change a gear ratio as it changes the dynamics but that needs a re-engineered transmission.

I am surprised that no enterprising engineer has come up with a solution involving changing rubber mounts or fitting a damping mechanism to eliminate the resonance that probably causes such judder. Its perhaps too difficult or Fiat would have done it to avoid the publicity!!


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## erneboy

There was no need to re-engineer much to fix the 2.3 version, some mountings and a gear ratio. Fait have refused even to investigate the problem in the 3 litre on the basis that they deny the existence of a fault. They know that there are many fewer of those so they expect they can brass it out. Initially they tried the same thing with the 2.3 but the sheer weight if numbers left them with no choice but to act, Alan.


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## emmbeedee

kc10 said:


> emmbeedee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kc10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A few people have told me that its Ford who supply the engine/transmission for the Fiat x250. There are a few notes on here to the same affect, if that's true who's fault is all this, Ford or Fiat? Where the hell are people supposed to go from here? It limits your choice for your next van a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> It may be Ford who supply the 2.2ltr. engine, as this is a joint Ford/Peugeot development, but AFAIK Ford do NOT supply the transmission. In any case if you have problems they will be dealt with by the base vehicle manufacturer, Fiat in this case. Where Fiat sourced the engine may be of passing interest but otherwise is of no concern to you.
> The other engines used in the X2/50 (2.3ltr. & 3.0ltr.) are nothing to do with Ford.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well that's the point isn't it? The opening post has the 2.2 Pug/Ford unit and is experiencing problems which Fiat won't accept liability for. This is a mess.
> 
> Where an engine comes from and where it ends up is more than a passing interest. If a unit is a dog I want to know about it and who is using it so as I don't end up with one. Anyone who isn't concerned about it could end up in a lot of bother and would be foolish to ignore such information.
> 
> Keith
Click to expand...

But one of the replies to the opening post mentions a Ford engine, not unit. "Unit" implies engine & transmission unit, which is not what Ford supply to Fiat.
Also, the OP is about clutch judder. How are you equating clutch judder with the (Ford supplied) engine? This is a transmission or mounting problem not an engine problem. As I said it is a Fiat problem even if (as usual) they are in denial about it.
You will notice that I made my choice, avoiding all Sevel products on the basis of the furore over the transmission problems & Fiat's response, or rather lack of it. We have had no problems or issues with the Ford part of our MH & thankfully precious few with the Roller Team parts.


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## kc10

Worlds like unit, lump or block read engine to me. 

A year ago I probably would have agreed with your assessment but I don't now. There are Transit owners who are also experiencing shudder problems. I've been approached by a few not all Motorhomes though. I've even had traders advise me of it ask me if mine had it. If the Transit has a different transmission than the Fiat then what's the link? Take a look at some of the Transit forums. 

I am glad you don't have any problems with yours. Do you use it a lot? What mileage have you covered? 

I'm biding my time and waiting for reports of the new Master and if all is well .... 

Keith


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## dandywarhol

Ken38 said:


> Things like judder are about the dynamics of the whole package. Often it's things like the mountings of the engine and transmission that allow a judder to set up.
> 
> So it's how the whole chassis has been engineered not the supplier of parts.
> 
> The fix for the manufacturer may be to change a gear ratio as it changes the dynamics but that needs a re-engineered transmission.
> 
> I am surprised that no enterprising engineer has come up with a solution involving changing rubber mounts or fitting a damping mechanism to eliminate the resonance that probably causes such judder. Its perhaps too difficult or Fiat would have done it to avoid the publicity!!


Hydraulic/rubber engine mounts have been around for a few years now Ken - first I saw was on a 2001 Renault Laguna.

Fiat, Peugeot, Renault, Ford et al use them......fancy some light reading :wink:

http://www.sandvmag.com/downloads/0207sin2.pdf


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## rayc

kc10 said:


> Thanks Ray, that's another manufacturer off the list. I recently had my 2.2 Transit serviced in a commercial vehicle servicing centre and the boy told me that the new Renault Master shares its engine (a 2.3) with an Iveco. Do you know anytthing about that?
> 
> Keith.


In my experience and that of all other 2.3 owners I have spoken to the Fiat 2.3 engine is a an excellent one. What have you heard about the 2.3 engine which could cause concern? Ray


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## kc10

Ray,

It was a half hearted attempt at a joke that was neither funny or appropriate in hindsight, sorry. 

I haven't heard anything about the Iveco 2.3 but am keen to find out about it if it's in the new Master. I also had a 2.3 Ducato and it was a brilliant engine but too many people have been badly treated by Fiat and wouldn't consider another now. 

I plan within the next few years to buy a panel van for a self build. When I get round to it it'll be my third 'van and I need to get it right as I want this one to be last and run it until it dies. I've had Renaults before and liked them with no majour problems so I am keen on any info on the Master and I think I have hijacked this thread. 

Keith


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## rayc

kc10 said:


> Ray,
> 
> It was a half hearted attempt at a joke that was neither funny or appropriate in hindsight, sorry.
> 
> I haven't heard anything about the Iveco 2.3 but am keen to find out about it if it's in the new Master. I also had a 2.3 Ducato and it was a brilliant engine but too many people have been badly treated by Fiat and wouldn't consider another now.
> 
> I plan within the next few years to buy a panel van for a self build. When I get round to it it'll be my third 'van and I need to get it right as I want this one to be last and run it until it dies. I've had Renaults before and liked them with no majour problems so I am keen on any info on the Master and I think I have hijacked this thread.
> 
> Keith


Keith, I had a 2.5 120dci Master fitted with the Quickshift gear box and was happy with it. I only had one problem when all automatic functions of the gear box were lost including the 'A' for automatic in the digital display. It turned out that I had a faulty glowplug which caused the ECU to tell the gearbox control to default to manual only. It was fixed quite promptly by a Renault truck dealer for £280. Ray


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