# Electric Conversions - Just The Facts Mam



## 95633

Hi Everyone

I finally decided to spend the £10 to subscribe - it's tearing me up a bit, so go easy on me please. 

*Electric Conversions - Just The Facts Mam*

I have read many posts on many forums concerning converting or not and nobody has actually stated why we SHOULD have RVs converted to UK-specs.

So would anybody like to list the POSITIVES AND NEGATIVES FOR OR AGAINST CONVERTING please ?

I've read several posts along the lines of "I don't like those funny sockets" or "We use 220V in the UK so it makes sense to convert the RV" to "To be honest, I dont know why I prefer to have it converted".

As such, it would be good if we can keep away from personal preference and stick to the facts ?

Permit me to give a few benefits of NOT CONVERTING :-

1) COST - buy multi-region multi-voltage TVs and DVD/Video and a Step Up/Down Transformer with a professional install of Transformer all for £745 - compare that to a conversion at £1500-£3000 PLUS buying all new PAL TVs.

2) UNIFORMITY - everything in the vehicle remains as it was intended at 110V. The Energy Management System will work for all the appliances rather than "just the main ones".

3) TOURING - you can very easily ship your RV to the USA for a tour and ALL your stuff works perfectly (£100 to remove the Transformer). As it will cost £3000 each way for shipping, it will be cheaper and easier to take your own RV (unless you intend to buy and import)

4) SPARES - appliances (kettle, toaster etc) are cheaper in the USA even with the p&p.

Here are details of my own actual costs associated with keeping the RV at 110V ;

1) 5000W Step Up/Down Transformer* (PM me for website) is $199 with free US delivery = £105 * NOT a yellow building site transformer.
2) 29" auto switching NTSC/PAL 110/220V TV (PM me for website) is $499 with $130 US delivery = £330
3) 21" auto switching NTSC/PAL 110/220V TV (PM me for website) is $199 with free US delivery = £105
4) DVD Recorder auto switching NTSC/PAL 110/220V TV (PM me for website) is $199 with free US delivery = £105

NB There are dozens of websites in the USA selling this equipment so finding the TVs to fit your RV is fairly easy.

I can only give an estimate of £100 for the Transformer to be wired-in by a qualified electrician, as I have no firm price as yet.

TOTAL GBP PRICE = £745 to keep everything in your RV operating at 110V.

One key thing to consider on cost is replacing the TVs and DVD/Video if doing a UK conversion.

Not only will you pay £1,000-£3,000 for a UK conversion, but you will easily add another £500-£1000 for TVs - whereas my £745 includes TVs etc

So - I think it definitely is an *ADVANTAGE to stay at 110V*.

Paul

_Warning : To get the real cost benefit of staying at 110V, you would be looking to source your appliances in the US before shipping to the UK - if you don't then I would think you can double (or even triple) these prices to account for p&p and VAT etc_


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## 101411

Hi Paul.

About time as well!!

Your missing the main point about the conversion.

The RV will be used in the UK and as everyone here has 240 v stuff it is a major inconvenience at having to buy all your gear from USA. Shipping is VERY expensive and then you have to add 10% import duty and 17.5% VAT on top of the initial cost+shipping+import duty. By the time you have finished the stuff gets here and is maybe £50 cheaper and if it breaks down where do you take it for a warranty repair??

Yes it obviously cheaper to leave it with a 110v system and simply bung a tranny in but realistically how many RVs ever go back home?? Finding replacement 110 volt stuff in the UK is virtually impossible never mind trying to find a microwave that fits into the right size slot. 

Another huge factor to bear in mind is when you come to sell your RV. If you had a choice between 2 identical models and 1 had a proper UK conversion and the other didn't, which 1 would you buy??

It cost me a lot less than £1500 to convert my Chateau and that included 2 replacement TVs (25"philips crt £195 and 13" LCD £120) and a DVD player.

At the end of the day its a personal choice but your American RV when it lands in the UK isn't an American RV any more, its a British RV and as such should do everything a British motorhome does and that included been able to plug the wifes favorite hair dryer and curling tongs into a socket and having it work!

Just a personal opinion but there you have it!!

When are back on UK soil then??

Oh yes and how are the lovely folks at Lazydays??

Dazzer


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## 95633

Hi Dazzer

Lazydays are just wonderful - as long as I'm at least 200 miles away from them :lol:

I thought this post would have got a few people posting, but it isn't to be (yet).

Regarding your reply, if you remove the personal preferences bit, you haven't listed anything which states why an RV "MUST" be converted.

I can't think of any safety/technical reasons - unless we have any electricians who can let us know.

So, if we focus on the cost side of things, I will give you two examples of dealing with the same RV :-

*1. Convert to UK and leave major appliances on 110V*

Pay £2000 (the average of prices quoted) for the electrical work, including transformers etc.

I haven't come across anyone yet offering conversions who run 220V to the back of all the major appliances in case they fail, so these items are still only 110V accessible.

Pay £500 for 2 brand new TVs in the UK (I will use that extremely low figure to offset any concerns of me overstating the conversion LOL)

Total expense £2,500.

*2. Leave everything on 110V*

As per my personal figures above, total expense £745 (you could take off £100 for the existing TVs I've just sold over here)

*But what about repairs ?*

American Fridge/Freezer 

The American Fridge/Freezer operates on electric and propane.

I'm not aware of a full size version in the UK which handles both propane and works on 220V, so you would have to buy a "compromise" item in the UK.

Whether you had converted or not, you will still have to get a 220V supply to the new fridge (as converters are unlikely to have wired 220V here). A single 110 to 220 Transformer would set you back £99 - probably the same as having an electrician run extra 220V cable to it (assuming he installed a big enough transformer to handle the larger appliances in the first place)

But, the good news is that US fridge/freezers don't usually break down totally (my fingers are very firmly crossed 8O ) and spare parts are very easy to come by.

Microwave

Let's assume you are good at woodwork and can "make good" any holes left after buying a UK microwave.

You still have to get that 220V wiring to the back of the microwave or you can use a transformer for the job at £99.

It is very unlikely that both your fridge/freezer AND microwave would pack-in so you haven't got to worry about transformers all over the place (although a few UK conversion plans I've seen they "simply bung" TWO transformers in the bays )

But first I would check on importing the same or similar model (size wise) as microwaves aren't that heavy (compared to 29" TVs anyway). You could also buy a 12V Microwave.

Washer/Dryer

We have a Splendide made in Italy - and I've got the contact details for a UK supplier of 110V machines, so no worries on that front.

So, going back to the 2 RV comparisons I mentioned -

Option 1 will cost you £2500 and then you will pay for new parts for your major appliances, replace with 110V appliances or replace with UK appliances and pay for the extra wiring or £99 transformer.

Option 2 will cost you £645 and then you will pay for new parts for your major appliances, replace with 110V appliances or replace with UK appliances and pay £99 for the transformer.

Either option will cost exactly the same, but option 2 will be £1855 cheaper to start with.

But I still welcome the electrical and/or mechanical facts to support why you MUST change to 220V.

It is just a psychological thing that people feel "happy" with 220V - but there seems no other reason for doing it.

Paul

PS I would question your view that a US RV becomes British once it is imported - you try and get your vehicle parts in the UK and see just how British it is. Of course, if the DVLA viewed my RV as British they wouldn't need to measure it to register would they  :lol:


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## cabby

I must be gettting tired, or did he just ignore or completely mis-understand the reply from Dazzer.
am I having a senior moment.  :?


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## 101411

Hi Paul.

There is no reason at all why you MUST convert your RV to UK specs. There are plenty of RVs out there with a yellow building site transformer working very nicely thankyou!!

The thing is you will need to do a conversion with a transformer capable of doing the job. Your generator will give you an indication of the size of transformer needed. 

So you go any buy your transformer and pop it into a convenient spot, cut off the plug on your american hookup and connect into it. Hey presto a bit of flex and a blue plug on the end and away you go. Life is sweet yes!! (actually theres a bit more to it with RCDs etc but lets keep it simple!!)

But for not a lot more you can buy a transformer that both steps up and down so you can now get 230 volts out of your generator. The only thing missing is a socket to plug your UK appliances into. Cable and sockets nd a small distribution board for say a 6 socket ring main costs less than £100.00 and a couple of hour with a drill and a bit of trunking put in a ring main for you.

Its not a matter of if you should do a full UK conversion or not its why would you NOT want to. It basically comes back to the personal choice thing. Why do 1/2 a job when you can increase the value of your RV and also its resale potential by spending a couple of hundred quid more and doing the job properly.

Eventually you will sell it and whoever buys it will expect a UK conversion. If it now costs £2k (way over the top but these are your figures) to convert and you keep your RV for say another 3 years, when you come to sell it you can immediately knock off say £3k off the asking price as the person buying it will have to pay to get it converted themselves.

Think about it you know it makes sense in the long term. If you don't want to do it for yourself do it for the next owner!!

When are you home then??

Dazzer


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## 95633

Hi Cabby

I obviously have ??

The reason for asking for FACTS on my original post was to remove the personal preferences side of things.

But, I will try and reply to Dazzers post bit by bit for you :-



> The RV will be used in the UK and as everyone here has 240 v stuff it is a major inconvenience at having to buy all your gear from USA. Shipping is VERY expensive and then you have to add 10% import duty and 17.5% VAT on top of the initial cost+shipping+import duty.


Normal appliances (kettle, toaster, hair dryer, etc) are just as cheap to buy at 110V and have shipped (or buy in the UK) as they are to buy 220V.



> By the time you have finished the stuff gets here and is maybe £50 cheaper and if it breaks down where do you take it for a warranty repair??


The TVs I have just purchased cost me £105 (21") and £325 (29") - both of which have a warranty I can upgrade to world-wide should I wish.

I purchased a £2000 laptop in the UK before we left for the USA - and it broke in the first month. It cost me £50 to extend the warranty to cover the repair in the USA.

So, it is not difficult to get things sorted, you just have to ask.



> Yes it obviously cheaper to leave it with a 110v system and simply bung a tranny in but realistically how many RVs ever go back home??


Come on please Dazzer, you have twice now referred to "bunging in" transformers or using "yellow site transformers". I haven't suggested either and have given details for the transformer I've purchased and quoted for a professional install.

It isn't fair to label those that choose to stay at 110V as cowboys just as I wouldn't accuse your very cheap conversion of being of suspect nature either.

We should both be credited with using professional equipment and tradesmen to do these jobs.



> Finding replacement 110 volt stuff in the UK is virtually impossible never mind trying to find a microwave that fits into the right size slot.


See my previous post re finding 110V stuff.

Is it easier to find a 220V to fit in the space than it is a 110V one ?



> Another huge factor to bear in mind is when you come to sell your RV. If you had a choice between 2 identical models and 1 had a proper UK conversion and the other didn't, which 1 would you buy??


If I had the true facts explained to me, rather than just "you must do 220V" then I could make an informed choice.

But remember this - the full conversion costs £2500 and will use all the parts Ive paid £645 for - so If a buyer insisted on a conversion for my RV, I could easily get it done.

The items which cost me £645 would cost £800 (very conservative figure) in the UK, so I would still save money if I later converted.



> At the end of the day its a personal choice but your American RV when it lands in the UK isn't an American RV any more, its a British RV and as such should do everything a British motorhome does and that included been able to plug the wifes favorite hair dryer and curling tongs into a socket and having it work!


I explained this in my last post.



> Just a personal opinion but there you
> have it!!


Unfortunately, the problem with personal preferences is that we are all different.

Hopefully, if people think about posts such as this, the "need" to convert may be less of an urge and a few more will leave as 110V and it becomes a normal part of RVing in the future.

Please don't take offence at the reply - it isn't a personal knock at you, just an attempt to throw open some more ways of doing things.

All the best
Paul


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## 101411

Hi Paul.

You keep asking for facts and not personal opinions or preferences.

Fact 1

You want to ship your RV to use in the UK. We use 230 volts in the UK. Its the national standard.

Fact 2

If your happy to leave everything as 110 volts in your RV and import broken or faulty electrical equipment from USA which may take weeks then good on you.

Fact 3 

I never said your transformer installation was a cowboy job, nor did I say you should use a site transformer. I simply said there are lots of RVs in the UK that do use them.

Fact 4

When you sell your RV the purchaser will expect a fully compliant 230volt system installed. If you are happy to spend additional money when you come to sell it to make it more appealing then so be it. 

Fact 5 

It will be cheaper to install a UK ring main whilst you are fitting your new transformer than getting it done at a later date. Killing 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak.

Fact 6

The decision to do a full conversion or not is a PERSONAL choice. There is no physical or technical reason why you do one over the other.

Fact 7

People expect what they know and understand. A lot of people don't understand the difference between the USA and the UK systems (why should they, they have lived with the UK system all their lives!). The truth of this will become apparent when you sell it. Put a post on here asking how many people would buy a non converted RV over a converted one. Im sure the response would be overwhelming.

Fact 8 

A 110volts system will never be a normal part of RVing in the UK (although it is a lot safer than our own system) simply because it is not "normal" in the UK.

Fact 9

Im not "having a go" at your logic. I just don't understand it, your importing an umpty thousand pound machine into the UK for use IN the UK but precluding almost every electrical appliance in the UK from ever working in it for the sake of a few hundred quid. It just doesn't make sense. 

Fact 10

Whatever choice you make will be the right choice for you, and at the end of the day thats all that matters. 

I haven't taken offence at any of your arguments they are well presented and thought out. Your RV is worth a lot of money and the minute it lands in the UK its value will increase dramatically (even more so with the taxes you wont be paying as you've been out of the UK for over 12 months). The extra cost of a full conversion pails into insignificance at the added value and saleability it will put on the vehicle when you come to sell it.

You still haven't said when you will be back by the way.

Did Lazydays do all the final repairs for you? I followed your "adventure" on the USA forum and it look like you are having a ball!!

Speak soon

Dazzer


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## Scotjimland

Hi Paul 

You have obviously done plenty of research and have some very valid points, but two things to consider .. 

1. Frequency: 
A transformer will allow you to use most electrical goods but anything with an internal clock will not function correctly due to the difference in cycles. This includes clock radios, DVD players, washer/dryers, microwave ovens etc also the speed of the washer/dryer will be slower. 
Our microwave only works at about 80% efficiency. 

2. All the load will be on the transformer, large (and not so large) transformers are notorious for tripping site circuit breakers due to the high inrush on powering up even on 'no load' . 
In mainland Europe this could be an even bigger problem with the usually smaller 6 - 10 amp hook ups. 


Personally I would advise on installing a 230v ring at the same time as you fit the tranny, a 'belt and braces' approach, keep your existing 110v /60hz appliances but have the facility to change over to 230v if required.


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## sallytrafic

Good post Jim

I would take issue with one of the facts in an earlier post and that is 110V is safer than 230V.

Well it is and it isn't.

Obviously from an electrical shock point of view its safer far more people will survive a 110V shock than a 230V shock.

But what causes the most deaths from electricity is not shock its as a result of a fire I don't have the figures to hand anymore but from memory it was about 10 to 1 more likely to die from a fire caused by electricity than from electrical shock. 

So what causes electrical fire? Nearly always its a result of current overheating wiring. A 230V system has half the current of a 110V system for the same wattage appliance, so from that point of view 230V is intrinsically safer. 

Now you can argue that 110V systems have thicker wires so its alright but have you seen US plugs and sockets and wiring?

This of course is even more important when considering 12V wiring with 20 times the current for the same wattage, which is why the thought of some of contributors on these forums messing with their installations is very worrying.

Regards Frank


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## baldlygo

UK-RV said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> I finally decided to spend the £10 to subscribe - it's tearing me up a bit, so go easy on me please.
> 
> *Electric Conversions - Just The Facts Mam*


Hi Paul,

Your thoughtfully prepaired contribution doesn't seem to have gone down too well to start with but I think it is really helpful to hear alternative views on subjects which most take for granted - Thanks a lot.

Paul


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## Scotjimland

sallytrafic said:


> Now you can argue that 110V systems have thicker wires so its alright but have you seen US plugs and sockets and wiring?


Yes, and I'm not impressed .. the wiring in my RV is literally shocking, I speak from ownership and experience.. the installation is a disgrace, give me a properly installed UK system any day.


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## 95633

At last - some replies - thanks guys !!!

I was starting to think I had paid my £10 only to find everyone had gone off somewhere else.  

Jim

Yes, I'm aware of the frequency differences - but would point out the following for anyone reading this post with an undecided mind on which way to go.

The big appliances which 99% of converters leave on 110V will suffer from the "problem" - just the same (obviously) as those of us who leave on 110V. There is absolutely no difference between the two.

The TVs and DVD Recorder that I purchased in the USA are Dual Voltage and Dual Frequency (and dual NTSC / PAL) so they will work without any issues whether on 110V or 220V, 50hz or 60hz.

Just for interest - and I must confess that I don't have more knowledge on this, but they also get UK Teletext and French Teletext for you travellers (I didn't know there was a French teletext) - the only downside is you need to understand French, which I find a little unfair of them.  

The Transformer I've purchased has a delayed start-up programme, which gradually increases the power being used/given, which (hopefully) will reduce or stop any instances of tripping. It claims to also stop any damage to major appliances from any initial power draw.

As I said before guys, the post isn't intended to be a "my systems better than yours" debate, rather more to discuss the pros and cons of either set-up.

I do agree that at the present time, anyone who reads forums like this will have a preference to a conversion - but just maybe the tide will turn one day.

I've made the post on a couple of other (less visited) forums and a couple of posters have admitted they hadn't given the 110V option any thought before but will now look into it.

One advantage of having the discussion is that I can take the reasoning for and against either option and present it to a prospective buyer who is leaning toward the 220V conversion - and let them make the decision.

If they insist on the 220V, all I have to do is get the wiring etc added - I already have the Transformer and TVs/DVD in place which will work just fine.

Of course, the cost would be worked into the price of the RV just as I could afford to sell it for £1000 less (the equivalent of giving a free HGV course) if I kept it at 110V.

Paul

PS Has anyone noticed I can't make a 2 sentence post - they are all the length of a novel - sorry


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## 95633

Hi Frank

Just a quick 2 (edit, a few) sentence reply.

You mention the state of US wiring and plugs/sockets being bad.

Im not an electrician so can't comment on the physical nature - just the practical side

Surely a conversion keeps at least 75% of any plugs/wiring/sockets in the RV and just adds a 220V circuit ?

Given the huge number of RVs on the roads in the USA, and our extensive travelling this year, I have come across ONE fire - and that was caused by the idiots putting a hot BBQ into their bay and going to bed.

Paul


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## 95633

Hi Dazzer

We are due back at end of April  

Yes, Lazydays have done the final warranty work and an insurance claim for a new half-windshield.

We haven't decided where we will be when we get back - Im reviewing options with regard the DVLA/VOSA.

As we have no home we can move into, DVLA have confirmed my understanding that the RV can be registered under a "care of" address within the UK.

This allows us to register under my parents address, which benefits by lower insurance rates.

I've been looking at the map of DVLA/VOSA testing stations and offices to locate the farthest point away from them in mainland UK for us to live :lol: :lol: 

Hopefully they won't want to visit us.

But, if they do, we are still an enormous 2mm under width. 8O

Paul

PS a few of your numbered facts weren't very factual :wink:


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## 101411

Hi Paul

So its 110 volts for you then.....Well done im sure you will be very happy together!! :wink:

2mm 8O Oh my God you are really sailing close to the wind, is your RV on the approved list (or more importantly on the Unapproved list 8O ) see here

http://www.smmt.co.uk/motorhomes/Motorhome_Directory.pdf

If its on the oversized list leave it in the USA if its not on the list or even mentioned prepare yourself for a battle with the DVLA :x . They will want to measure it and you will have to bring it to them so it doesn't matter where your address is in the country. Are you leaving the thing loaded up with all your worldy goods when you ship it home?? You are aware that they have to leave the vehicles unlocked 8O at the docks (in the USA) for random customs inspections and that theft is widespread from parked vehicles by dock staff.

Enjoy the rest of your time in the USA

Dazzer


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## 95633

Hi Dazzer

Nothing like scaring someone and then telling them to enjoy themselves is there !  

The RV is DEFINITELY on the Oversize List - but this doesn't mean it IS oversize just that it must be checked.

But given that the RVDA claim the SMMT list has now been done away with by the DVLA, we won't know where we stand until we get there.

It could be argued as a good reason for keeping things at 110V - much easier to ship back 8O 

I was under the impression (right or wrong?) that you could ask the DVLA/VOSA to visit you rather than having to go to them - or is that just Oxford due to narrow streets etc.

Paul


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## 101411

I registered my Chateau 6 weeks ago. Believe me they are using the list (didn't want to see mine as it was on the approved list). If its over width its illegal, plain and simple and there is no compromise with them They will simply refuse to register it and that will be the end of the matter. You are in the hands of office workers driving a tape measure, no 2 people will measure it the same size and once 1 says "to big" thats the end of it.

Sell it in the USA or chop it in for a legal width vehicle you will save your self a lot of heartache. 

Good point about the conversion though they don't need UK sockets back in the land of the great and the good!!!

Get it sorted before you put it on a boat

Dazzer


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## 101411

Just had another thought

If its on the oversized list whoever is measuring it will already have a preconception that its to big. Remember the person measuring it pushes paper round a desk all day and this is their big shot at been a power crazed desk jockey.

Just a thought but if you end up with a spotty graduate having a bad day how well do you think you will fair??

Dazzer


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## 95633

Hi Dazzer

They will want to measure it - and if they do, it will be under width by 2mm.

The RV has been measured several times at so many places between Florida and Alaska you just wouldn't believe it - and depending on the heat, the RV expands and shrinks (try it on yours in summer and winter).

If they refuse it, we will just try again when things "calm down"

We would lose $50,000 if we sold it in the US so that isn't an option.

It's just unfortunate that the DVLA clampdown started a month after we purchased the RV - but we will get thru it.

A minor inconvenience, but not the end of the World is it.

Paul


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## Scotjimland

Hi Paul

Just want to wish you the best of luck with the import, there have been numerous threads on this forum and others about RV width issues, several people will be following your progress with great interest.. keep us informed.. safe travels .. many thanks.


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## 101411

Hi Paul.

Not wanting to be the one that pi**es on your bonfire here but are you serious?? 8O 

"An inconvenience" that would be the understatement of the century. You really have no idea what dealing with the DVLA is like. Once you try to register it and it is found to be too big that is the end of the matter. It is logged on a computer with the chassis number as oversized and no amount of "calming down" will alter that fact. It will always be oversized and therefor illegal which means it wont be registered.  

I understand your point regarding the $50k loss 8O in USA but do you know how much an RV which cant be registered over here worth?? £0.00  

If you ship it back to the UK that will cost about £3-4K  
You then mess about with the DVLA for 6 months and you end up sending it back another 6-8 months depreciation of say $5-6k (probably a lot more)  
Then you ship back to USA another £3-4k  

So bringing it back to the UK will cost you another $16-18k add that to $50k you already stand to loose and that is very expensive "inconvenience" indeed.  

If you then decide you want to import another RV that is legal you will have to pay the import duty and VAT on it 8O (unless you feel that another 12 month tour of the USA  is in order!!) 

If money is no object to you and you are happy to gamble with the best part of £30k 8O then "fill your boots" but I think its time you took off the rose tinted glasses 8) and took a good strong sniff of the coffee. 2mm is less than the thickness of a medium size paperclip. Even laser measuring which may very well go against you as they will include things like wheel arch flares or even the drip cills on the windows may not give the size you want and cost even more money.

Cut your losses and trade it against a legal vehicle at least that way you will still be able to take advantage of the tax and VAT free import.

I feel for you, i really do this must be a terrible place to find yourself after what must have been a magical year touring round the USA  but are you really prepared to gamble on 2mm with all that money??

Good luck with whatever you decide but do please keep us informed of your progress, there will be LOTS of people on here that will be very interested in the outcome.

Dazzer


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## 95633

Hi Dazzer

Thanks for another really encouraging reply.

I will be brief as this isn't the time nor place to start yet another "width debate".

I can sell in the USA now and lose $50,000 - not a good option.

I can trade in the US now and lose on the deal - it's anyone's guess how much but I will lose money.

If I trade then I won't have had the vehicle for the required 6 months for free Duty and VAT - so that would be another loss (and more to the point I would have to stump up the money out of my savings).

Basically, if I trade an RV I actually love, then I will lose at least $50,000.

So, the hand that has been dealt me is to import the RV !!

As I have stated, I've measured the RV just a few times and I know it is underwidth.

If the DVLA take a different view then we will deal with it - I have fought HMRC before and got the correct result, so I will be ready with gloves raised. 

Paul


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## 101411

Hi Paul

You call it "encouraging" I call it realistic you are not dealing with HMRC you are dealing with the DVLA who are a totally different animal altogether. They have no interest in you, just your RV. 

If you were measuring it and it was a borderline call and your job was on the line and there was all the ho-har about RV widths ringing in your ears what would you do??

You say you measured it and its undersized, exactly where did you measure it?? The guidelines include all mouldings, grab handles, awnings both free standing and awnings over slide outs,wheel arch flares, wheel trims and tyre bulge, window seals and frames, door catches, locks, access panel surrounds, electrical socket covers etc etc etc etc etc. The list is endless if you just measured the back of your bus and found it to be 2mm smaller than 2550mm try measuring anything else that sticks out (even the window frames) and double it if theres the same on the other side. That will give you a realistic guestimate of the size.

Things not included in the width are the mirrors and the running lights so they can be ignored.

Im not an angel of doom and i do really have your best interests at heart. I hope you don't have any problems but be prepared for a long drawn out battle with the DVLA and be prepared to ship your pride and joy back to the USA if it all goes horribly wrong.

Dazzer


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## DABurleigh

"So, the hand that has been dealt me is to import the RV !!"

Paul,

Well I did query your thinking on this nearly 14 months ago, BEFORE you bought your RV, and I PMed you on the RVForum, but you never replied to any of them.

http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=1354.msg34091#msg34091

http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=4279.msg38104#msg38104

However, I am sure that now, having a glass-half-full attitude that right is on your side with the DVLA is correct. There must be an escalation/appeal route even if you have to pursue court action. Contemplating any alternative would be soul-destroying.

Dave


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## 95633

Hello Dave

Yes - I did see both your posts.

The reason I didn't respond was I purchased the RV on the day of your first post, and I had other things on my mind at the time (ref Lazydays).

At the time of your 2nd post, 5 weeks later, the brakes had just failed on the tow car - so I had that to deal with.

You will hopefully understand that you and the DVLA weren't exactly top of my priority list that day either.

I am confident we will be OK with registration.

IF we encounter a problem, we will deal with it in May - no point worrying about it now as there is diddly-squat that can be done.

Im going to finish putting-in the new TVs, take the RV to Brunswick next week, spend 10 sunny nights around Florida, enjoy a 7 night Caribbean cruise and then endure our 12 night Transatlantic cruise home - am I going to spoil that by worrying about something I cant change. No chance !

I will let you know what happens when it happens.

So - can we get back to 110V v 230V ??

Paul


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## maddie

Hi Paul may I say I know next to nothing on RVs but reading this post has grabbed my interest.It seams to me you have already made your mind up on 110/240 and want somone to change for you?if Dazzer's reply don't do that nothing much will.
Iwould like to say you got big B--lS good on you and good luck
Keep us posted
Terry


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## MicknPat

Dazzer said:


> Once you try to register it and it is found to be too big that is the end of the matter. It is logged on a computer with the chassis number as over-sized and no amount of "calming down" will alter that fact. It will always be over-sized and therefor illegal which means it wont be registered. Dazzer


Dazzer,

Sorry to contradict you but the above statement is not true.

Please read >> These Pages << from the Itchy Feet web site.

Briefly Eric Randle the owner of Itchy Feet imported a Fleetwood Revolution 40L in the beginning of 2006 which was rejected in the registration process for being over in length.

Eric appealed several time and in Sept 2006 the RV which was 
* FOUR INCHES * over in the length NOT * 2mm* as in the case of Paul's RV was registered.


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## 101411

Just goes to show then you can register anything you like if your a main dealer! Be interesting to see how our man in the street Paul gets on. Im just glad its not me.

Dazzer


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## maddie

I hope it's a cold day when they measure,it will expand more than 2 mm on a warm one!
terry


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## MicknPat

maddie said:


> I hope it's a cold day when they measure,it will expand more than 2 mm on a warm one!
> terry


Paul, Is there a DVLA centre on the :coldcold: Shetland Isles? :coldcold:


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## 88927

Hi Paul
Cannot comment on the voltage discussion as ours was converted (professionally) when it was imported new by Westcrofts. All our power outlets provide 230 volts and the main ancillaries remain at 110 volts. 11 years of service and no problems. I would agree though that obtaining 230 volt kettles or toasters and the like is much easier and cheaper in europe than sourcing 110 volt items, but is that enough??? Only you can make that decision and in that respect it is impossible to give a factual answer to your question, I don't think there is a right or wrong way here, so any answer will by nature be a personal opinion.
I noticed that you commented on measuring the width of your RV and found that the measurement varied according to climate, I made this point some time ago (rather flippantly) and someone castigated my comment as being ridiculous. I am glad to see that someone has actually caried out these different measurements and now hope the person who slapped my comment feels appropriately silly :lol: 
Good luck with your import Paul, we are all thinking of you mate, and please let us know how you get on.

Keith


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## 98452

I had my one converted as I thought automatically thats what people did.

To be honest my microwave just packed up so was a dilemma both ways as I wanted to measure it to see if it fitted (got a minor problem with my 240 TV although measured it perfectly in my view was still slightly oversize  ) but only had a 110 socket in the microwave area.

Anyway in the end found a 240 microwave that fits perfectly thank god and fitted a 240 socket in the microwave area and run a discreet lead to the nearest 240 socket for now.

Yes I could have imported a 110 microwave but this turned out easier in this case.

There ifs and buts whichever way you go.


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## MicknPat

As a potential RV importer I am following this thread with great interest. 

Could those RV owners who have already commented just please send a further posting just to say if the imported or bought their RV in the UK and if their RV is FULL 220v or still 110v with modification. 

Ta 
Mick


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## 98452

Imported my own.

Had the conversion done professionally. (would I go the 110 way next time? maybe?)


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## 101411

Mine Was Self Imported

Full UK Conversion Done When It Landed. Would i want an RV that specifically stopped me using any UK appliance I owned? Not a chance in hell (although I think ive made my point on this tread a couple of times now!!)

Dazzer


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## 88927

We bought our RV second hand from a UK dealer, although it was originally imported new by Westcrofts for a company owner. It has a full 230 volt conversion, the only 110 volt outlets are microwave, aircon and refer, even the rear TV socket has been changed to 230 volts UK type socket.
I hope this helps

Keith


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## 101193

A strong argument for having a conversion is to make the electrical installation actually legal. *All *electrical installations have to comply with the IEE Wiring Regulations by law - including MHs. Currently 16th Edition 2001 but a new 17th Edition is due in 2008.

For instance, many of you will know that the requirements for fixed installation cable colours recently changed from red and black to brown and blue. How many newly imported MHs comply with that regulation, let alone many of the more obscure technical regulations?

Whether anyone will actually check or even care is another matter of course. Perhaps until someone electrocutes themselves and the Coroner takes an interest....


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## krull

Dazzer said:


> Hi Paul.
> 
> About time as well!!
> 
> Your missing the main point about the conversion.
> 
> The RV will be used in the UK and as everyone here has 240 v stuff it is a major inconvenience at having to buy all your gear from USA. Shipping is VERY expensive and then you have to add 10% import duty and 17.5% VAT on top of the initial cost+shipping+import duty. By the time you have finished the stuff gets here and is maybe £50 cheaper and if it breaks down where do you take it for a warranty repair??
> 
> Yes it obviously cheaper to leave it with a 110v system and simply bung a tranny in but realistically how many RVs ever go back home?? Finding replacement 110 volt stuff in the UK is virtually impossible never mind trying to find a microwave that fits into the right size slot.
> 
> Another huge factor to bear in mind is when you come to sell your RV. If you had a choice between 2 identical models and 1 had a proper UK conversion and the other didn't, which 1 would you buy??
> 
> It cost me a lot less than £1500 to convert my Chateau and that included 2 replacement TVs (25"philips crt £195 and 13" LCD £120) and a DVD player.
> 
> At the end of the day its a personal choice but your American RV when it lands in the UK isn't an American RV any more, its a British RV and as such should do everything a British motorhome does and that included been able to plug the wifes favorite hair dryer and curling tongs into a socket and having it work!
> 
> Just a personal opinion but there you have it!!
> 
> When are back on UK soil then??
> 
> Oh yes and how are the lovely folks at Lazydays??
> 
> Dazzer


Hey Dazzer! Why not just buy a M/h that is more 'fit for purpose' for UK use, a Euro M/h! :lol:


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## 95633

Hi Chris

You refer to having the conversion to make the electrics legal.

The thing you must remember is that when people talk of a "full UK conversion" they are only actually talking of a partial amendment to the electrics.

The microwave/convection, fridge/freezer, washing machine, etc will STILL be 110v even after a "full UK conversion".

As such, a "converted" coach would (?) still fall short of legal with regard the IEE Wiring Regs you refer.

You could (perhaps loosely) say that a non-amended RV would be in a better position legally as it is in its original state and hasn't been "illegally converted"

I wonder where the electrician who did a "full UK conversion" would be liable to prosecution if he did a "full UK conversion" but didn't actually do as the regs state and convert ALL wiring etc?

Not wishing to open up the debate again, but just posing a thought.

Paul


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## 102138

Hi,
I did not have time to sit & read this topic, but much too interesting to leave!!!!.As has been said, nearly all units are still 110v, so its only the "small" bits that we use 240v for. Make sure you let us know how you get on with import.
Nigel


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## 99418

Hi

We imported ours from lazydays last year and have put a stepdown motor to run all on 110volts, bought the kettle etc from linda at stateside and just fitted one socket near the bed direct from input on stepdown just for the things that need recharging 

We are now in Spain and quite happy with the Rv, been using it now for 6 months 

Phill


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## 95633

Nigel

If refering to our import - we collected it from Southampton on May 1st/2nd and had it registered at Bristol DVLA around 10 days ago.

Our RV is now on the "approved" list and they didnt need to see it before issueing a reg number (we did have a letter from Fleetwood Vice President confirming under width though, but they didnt even need that).

Our only issue now is they gave us a "55" reg when it should be an "06".

They claim there isn't anything which states the vehicle was new when we purchased it - even though we produced the invoice which clearly states it was a new vehicle.

Im going thru the DVLA complaints procedure as we speak.

Paul


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## 101193

UK-RV said:


> The thing you must remember is that when people talk of a "full UK conversion" they are only actually talking of a partial amendment to the electrics.


Hi Paul

I'm very new to all this so I thought "full UK conversion" meant just that - I am apparently mistaken. I'm not trying to say a full conversion is necessary, just in my opinion that it's the only option that's strictly legal. Obviously there are 101 things these days that are technically not legal (what with all the new EC regs) but in practice they can't be changed.

I can see how private importers can "get away" with this, but I am puzzled as to how the commercial companies importing MHs can get away with it.

I don't have a bee in my bonnet about this, as I believe we are far too over-regulated these days, just interested in the topic.


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## 101193

sallytrafic said:


> A 230V system has half the current of a 110V system for the same wattage appliance, so from that point of view 230V is intrinsically safer.


I don't think that's quite right.

A 460W heater doesn't care if it's 230V at 2A or 115V at 4A. It's still 460W.

You were talking about electrical faults causing fires. This happens when some part of the wiring, etc, gets too hot. This is just the same effect as a heater.

Whether it's 230V @ 2A, 115V @ 4A, or 12V @ 18A, the effect is the same.

In terms of danger of electrocution, the lower the voltage the better, but not in terms of causing fires.


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## sallytrafic

Crisby said:


> sallytrafic said:
> 
> 
> 
> A 230V system has half the current of a 110V system for the same wattage appliance, so from that point of view 230V is intrinsically safer.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that's quite right.
> 
> A 460W heater doesn't care if it's 230V at 2A or 115V at 4A. It's still 460W.
> 
> You were talking about electrical faults causing fires. This happens when some part of the wiring, etc, gets too hot. This is just the same effect as a heater.
> 
> Whether it's 230V @ 2A, 115V @ 4A, or 12V @ 18A, the effect is the same.
> 
> In terms of danger of electrocution, the lower the voltage the better, but not in terms of causing fires.
Click to expand...

You know that is a very good argument and of course you are right 460W is 460W whatever the combination of voltage and current that produces it but its not the power developed in the load that you should be considering but the current in the cable that feeds it.

What causes a cable to heat up? The answer is the current passing though it. At an atomic level it can be considered as the jostling of the electrons as they struggle past the minor obstacles that a good conductor has. That is why the resistance of the cable is proportional to the cross sectional area of the cable and why for higher currents we use thicker wire. Ultimately what determines what a cable can take is its cross sectional area but long before a cable melts its insulation breaks down so the limiting factor is more to do with the insulation material. This is why each type of insulation material has its own set of tables in the electrical regulations.

Where does this take us, well resistance is the chief enemy so for a 110V system the cables are twice as thick (4 times the cross sectional area) so thats ok but what really causes problems are the joints. Feel a UK mains plug just after its been delivering 13A to its load, it is hot. Actually most of this heat is caused by the fuse (which is why the live pin is hotter than the neutral one) but some is caused by the various joints in the terminals and between the plug and socket. The more current the hotter. The losses in a cable which result in heat are inversely proportional to resistance but proportional to the square of the current passing through. So reduce your current by half reduces these losses by a factor of 4 and reduces the heat by 4. (Note that I said heat not temperature because part of the whole scenario is the rate that heat can be taken away which slows the rise in temperature.)

So intrinsically the higher the voltage the less current there has to be for the same load and the less heating there is for the supply cables. Less heating means less danger of fire and so its intrinsically safer because many more people die from fires started electrically than die of electric shock.

Taken to its limits its why the National grid is at such a high voltage given all the problems that that causes (step up and down transformers, huge insulators and pylons), all that to reduce the losses given by the current passing through the wire and the heating that that produces.

Regards (and sorry for the physics lesson) Frank

PS I note that my original post had a fuller explanation than the bit that was quoted by Crisby.


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## Moandick

Frank

I wouldn't worry to much what others might think of your post but I thought it was very clear and concise.

I have never 'understood' electricity other than if it doesn't work, it isn't switched on but I have always wondered why the building industry used one voltage and everybody else used another. 

Your explanation has cleared the 'soup' more than a little and I thank you for that.

I only wish my handbook was as clear and concise!

Dick


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## 101193

Dick

I did say I "think" Frank's explanation was not quite right. I wasn't rubbishing it, just challenging a particular point in what (I thought) was a reasonable tone. That is part of the learning process. Just because something is clear and concise doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. I didn't mean to caused offence to anyone.

BTW the building industry uses the yellow transformers to reduce the electrocution risk. They step the voltage down to 115V but that's not the whole story. The transformer output is centre-tapped to earth, which means the highest voltage a worker is exposed to is less than 60V (theoretically 115 / 2 = 57.5V).

I'm not sure what the consequences are if someone uses such a transformer in a MH, especially if they are using it with 230V in the same room. They are potentially exposing themselves to a shock from 287.5V.

Frank

You obviously know your stuff and I accept what you say. I was thinking of the situation where there is an electrical fault, which is when fires can be started. At that time there is a particular resistance somewhere - say in the 13A plug (we've probably all experienced this as some time) which causes heat to be generated. My thoughts were that this is the same as the resistance in the heating element of a heater, so the same rules would apply.

The electricity doesn't know which is the resistance in the heating element and which is the resistance in the faulty plug - they are both just resistances.

Obviously I am over-simplyfing things.

Regards

Chris


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## sallytrafic

I don't think anyone took offence at your post Crisby and I think Dick was commenting on my remark about a physics lesson.

Converting a 110V system to 230V is much easier than the other way around after all the cables are much thicker than they need to be and the insulation will be ok. Also for fixed cables the colour isn't so important (even with the new channges as fixed wiring cable only needs to be identified at each end of the cable each core can be white or black as long as each core bears an indentiy at the end.

Regards Frank


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## krull

Ohm's law.

V=IR
voltage = amperage x wattage

as the wattage is constant for a given appliance/system, if you double the voltage, the amperage is halved.

Also on all mains systems, the neutral is always tapped to earth, usually at the sub-station.

The isulation thickness required depends on voltage not amperage. If you convert to 230v, the insulation and terminal iscolation is the only possible downfall I can think of.


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## 101411

Dazzer[/quote]

Hey Dazzer! Why not just buy a M/h that is more 'fit for purpose' for UK use, a Euro M/h! :lol:[/quote]

Hi Krull.

Just spotted your posting here!!

After giving it much thought and consideration Ive decided that your right 8O . So with that in mind ive now put my spacious, well equipped RV with its 3 slide outs, huge double bed, large fridge/freezer, surround sound DVD audio/visual system, air condtioning, built in generator, full size shower and bathroom, seat belts for 9 (yes that right nine people!!), electric jacks, 1800kgs payload and more storage space than you can shake a stick at, full size awning, not to mention the fact that it tows my nearly 2 tonne 4X4 behind it without slowing down or breaking into a sweat up for sale. 8O

I am now on the lookout for a small, underpowered shoebox that cant pull the skin off a rice pudding, is dependent on solar panel or hookups, with a dripping tap in a 18" square plastic box and a shower curtain that you have to run round underneath to get wet (not to mention tied up in the shower curtain), where you have to pull out couches or lay flat the table to goto bed and can only carry 3 pints of water and you have to leave the fridge (which is just about big enough to get a packet of bacon in) empty for the fear of overloading the payload capacity, that is based on van chassis that was never really designed to be loaded to 100% capacity all of the time and will no doubt need an engine remap or a "superchip" fitting to go any faster than 35mph up a slight incline as well as airbags to help the suspension carry the weight it shouldnt be carrying anyway . Oh yes and let me think.......its also simply GOT to have one of those superb cassette toilets so i can leave a lovely blue trail all the way to the disposal points so I dont get lost the next day when I have to do it all again as the cassette is full AGAIN. If anyone knows of a motorhome thats up for sale that fits this description please let me know so I can run down to it and pay twice the amount that it should be costing. BUT (and getting back on thread here) the electrical installation will be "Fit For Purpose" which is probably the only thing on the entire vehicle that will be!!!!

Oh my..........ive just woken up I think I was having a nighmare :lol: :lol: or maybe a temporary mental breakdown....... 8O ...........Its all OK ive just looked out of the window and the RV is still there....pheww!!


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## krull

Dazzer said:


> Dazzer


Hey Dazzer! Why not just buy a M/h that is more 'fit for purpose' for UK use, a Euro M/h! :lol:[/quote]

Hi Krull.

Just spotted your posting here!!

After giving it much thought and consideration Ive decided that your right 8O . So with that in mind ive now put my spacious, well equipped RV with its 3 slide outs, huge double bed, large fridge/freezer, surround sound DVD audio/visual system, air condtioning, built in generator, full size shower and bathroom, seat belts for 9 (yes that right nine people!!), electric jacks, 1800kgs payload and more storage space than you can shake a stick at, full size awning, not to mention the fact that it tows my nearly 2 tonne 4X4 behind it without slowing down or breaking into a sweat up for sale. 8O

I am now on the lookout for a small, underpowered shoebox that cant pull the skin off a rice pudding, is dependent on solar panel or hookups, with a dripping tap in a 18" square plastic box and a shower curtain that you have to run round underneath to get wet (not to mention tied up in the shower curtain), where you have to pull out couches or lay flat the table to goto bed and can only carry 3 pints of water and you have to leave the fridge (which is just about big enough to get a packet of bacon in) empty for the fear of overloading the payload capacity, that is based on van chassis that was never really designed to be loaded to 100% capacity all of the time and will no doubt need an engine remap or a "superchip" fitting to go any faster than 35mph up a slight incline as well as airbags to help the suspension carry the weight it shouldnt be carrying anyway . Oh yes and let me think.......its also simply GOT to have one of those superb cassette toilets so i can leave a lovely blue trail all the way to the disposal points so I dont get lost the next day when I have to do it all again as the cassette is full AGAIN. If anyone knows of a motorhome thats up for sale that fits this description please let me know so I can run down to it and pay twice the amount that it should be costing. BUT (and getting back on thread here) the electrical installation will be "Fit For Purpose" which is probably the only thing on the entire vehicle that will be!!!!

Oh my..........ive just woken up I think I was having a nighmare :lol: :lol: or maybe a temporary mental breakdown....... 8O ...........Its all OK ive just looked out of the window and the RV is still there....pheww!!
[/quote]

Good man, you know it makes sense. Just think of those new friends you'll make on cc sites too! :wink:


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## 101411

Krull

Thanks ever so much for showing me the error of my ways :lol: :lol:


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## 99270

*Is your RV registered?*

Dear Paul

Hope you don't mind me asking but what was the outcome with the registration/width issue with the DVLA and your RV? I was glued to my screen with your secnario! I'm bringing over a Winnebago from the US as we speak. It's on the approved list by 4mm but I have been told by a UK RV dealer that the approved list has been 'pulled' by DVLA and no one knows what's going to happen in the near future - is this a scare tactic for not buying the RV from them or could I be in trouble?

Best regards
Chris


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