# Dropping like flies



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Is it only me that thinks flying has become a bigger risk just lately?
I was going off the whole idea recently as we are being treated worse than Veal Calves. But the latest news of 150 dead on a French mountain just adds to the total of thousands in the last couple of years.
We are constantly being told flying is by far the safest mode of transport but I am beginning to question this.

Ray.


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## Jimblob44 (Oct 26, 2013)

It has put me off flying. I hate flying at the best of times and usually need a wee helping hand from madam mogadon before boarding, I think I will just continue to drive where I need to go.


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## suedew (May 10, 2005)

Have become more and more reluctant to fly over the years, much prefer being in the van.

Sue


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yep.
We have several friends stateside who keep banging on about us vsiting and now son who has moved to Turkey. But as has been said flying is becoming less desirable and driving more manageable and less stressful.

I used to love flying and even chose a flight where we had to change planes. But not now with all the extra security and cramped conditions and being treated like a criminal at both ends.

I'm quite looking forward to driving to Turkey even though son said they would not do the drive again.

Ray.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I told Mrs Eb a few years back that I'd never fly anywhere again unless there was an exceptionally good reason to do so. That wasn't for safety reasons though, it's just become so bloody tedious booking in and going through security and all that necessary palaver. Used to fly all over the place and quite liked it, I find it completely joyless now though.

If I had to fly I wouldn't be overly bothered about safety though, Alan.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

It is still the safest form of transport by miles. When you think in any day 8 million people fly and the crash the other day was the first big one this year the odds of being in a crash are really low. In fact 1 in 29 million!

Some interesting stats here. http://www.statisticbrain.com/airplane-crash-statistics/

Certainly doesnt bother me. I used to be scared of flying until i was on a plane to ireland where the startboard engine caught fire and shut down mid flight. 

I figured that it couldnt possibly happen twice.

The security is a pain as are delays but it can work out the cheapest way to travel even internally in the UK.

I recently went to visit Tuggers who lives nearly 400 miles away in Devon. Train was going to be £185 and took 8 hours, bus was £90 and took 12! So out of the question and to drive would probably cost me well over £100 just in fuel.

Flybe Newcastle to Exeter, £80. Would have been cheaper if I had booked earlier. Had to get a train to Newcastle which cost me £20 return. Good value I reckon. Having said that I was delayed for 24 hours at Newcastle but got a night in the Hilton plus expenses thrown in!


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## siggie (Oct 2, 2010)

You are more likely to die in a road accident on the way to/from the airport than in an aircraft crash.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I agree about the statistics of miles covered and deaths.
But it still does't alay the fears when standing in line remembering all the recent highly publicised fatalities. It's the luck of the draw.

I still prefer my personal tin box with all it's airbags.

Ray.


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## flyinghigh (Dec 10, 2012)

siggie said:


> You are more likely to die in a road accident on the way to/from the airport than in an aircraft crash.


I way I drive to the airport when I'm late for my flight you could well be right:grin2:


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

We fly long-haul twice or more a year, we just accept the odds.

Peter


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## Blizzard (Sep 21, 2009)

After years of flying holidays and hating being treat like cattle, we decided to stop flying several years ago and we spent quite a bit of money on a new 4x4 and large caravan, taking up that style of holiday and lifestyle.

As the years have passed, we've moved on to motorhomes and in that time, our memories of being treat like cattle at airports have receded somewhat and we've occasionally thought about long distance holidays again, but I'm the first to admit that despite the safety statistics, the sheer horror of the latest air tragedies are keeping me away from that return.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

It is what it is

A disaster in an airplane 

Is far more unlikely 

Than a health disaster

Cancer, heart ect 
So

Just go with it

You may be lucky

Or you may be not

I think it's called life

You pull the straw

But whatever you pull

You can make a difference
It's what happens next

Aldra


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

Last time I flew was in 1966, in a helicopter. Then they made me jump out down a rope, which was rather off-putting.
The wife has never flown, didn't get the with wings with her angel kit!
Have never felt the urge to get entangled with the chaos at the average airport, ferry ports are much more sedate.


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## tugboat (Sep 14, 2013)

barryd said:


> It is still the safest form of transport by miles. When you think in any day 8 million people fly and the crash the other day was the first big one this year the odds of being in a crash are really low. In fact 1 in 29 million!
> 
> Some interesting stats here. http://www.statisticbrain.com/airplane-crash-statistics/
> 
> ...


Just hold yer horses, pal. What about the chauffeur-driven limo from Exeter airport to Tugboat Towers? You haven't paid for that yet. 70 mile round trip, that's got to be at least 75 beer tokens!

And, people………he bought me a bottle of gin in Newkie as a present and then only drank the whole thing while he was in the hotel! Sheesh.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Tuggy

Surely you knew that would happen
Before it did

Now

You weigh up the costs
Deduct them from the advantages

And by my life deductions

I am almost always Quids in:grin2::grin2:

With you I had no costs to deduct

Total advantage my tuggy:smile2::smile2:

Barry, well he is my love
So

I never see anything but advantage

Sandra0


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## pneumatician (May 1, 2005)

I love flying and the smaller the Aircraft the more enjoyable it is. I don't particularly enjoy holiday flights as the only interesting bit is Landing and take off. In particular I dislike massive Civils such as 747 and A380 its a lot of people to go in one accident.

Remember in one 747 crash the passengers had time to write notes to relatives before their demise.


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## camallison (Jul 15, 2009)

In the last 6 years of my working life, I had 2 or 3 short-haul return flights a week, and a long-haul return every 4 to 6 weeks. In that time, I experienced one aborted take-off at Gatwick when just about to rotate (blown tyres ingested by engine) ..... two aborted landings just short of touching down (plane still on runway) one of which gave me a wonderful side-on view of the sheds around Manchester airport, and the other a similar view at Charles de Gaul ...... one landing, sliding on ice down the runway at Aberdeeen .... and lastly an engine fire and sunsequent emergency landing at Milan. In each and every case, the pilot(s) handled it very well (although the Lufthansa pilot aborting at Manchester had a falsetto/wobbly voice when he came on later to explain what had happened). Oh, forgot the near-miss somewhere over Bulgaria - less than 100 feet vertical separation and head-on - our 777 climbed rapidly!

If I needed to fly again - yes, but the delays and cattle pens do get me down.

Colin


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Well if
God forbid

My lot were on such a flight

I'd appreciate a note
Regardless of the content

Aldra


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

camallison said:


> If I needed to fly again - yes, but the delays and cattle pens do get me down. Colin


Thats my main point Colin.
I now have the choice.

Ray.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

We too have not flown for a number of years now, I think it was 1989.
The take off and landing was fine, but so bored during the flights.
Then we got a new Motorhome and went back to touring. With all the security and palaver that one has to put up with I would only go long haul to see family now.

cabby


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## Webby1 (Mar 11, 2012)

"Dropping like flies".........................such a witty title considering the scope of 

the tragedy.

Let's face it you're more likely to be gassed !!!!!!


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

siggie said:


> You are more likely to die in a road accident on the way to/from the airport than in an aircraft crash.


More likely to die crossing the road to get to the car.

In fact as most deaths actually occur in the home, is it safe to stay there.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

tugboat said:


> Just hold yer horses, pal. What about the chauffeur-driven limo from Exeter airport to Tugboat Towers? You haven't paid for that yet. 70 mile round trip, that's got to be at least 75 beer tokens!
> 
> And, people………he bought me a bottle of gin in Newkie as a present and then only drank the whole thing while he was in the hotel! Sheesh.


Yes well I had to drink the Gin as I bought it at the airport but of course they wouldn't have let me back in the next day with it would they? I didn't think you would want it to go to waste. 

As for chauffeur driven, I seem to remember requesting a uniform and cap. What happened to that huh?


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

We used to be frequent fliers ... but after a frightening incident while on approach to landing at Geneva during a thunderstorm we have only flown once since and that was the following year when we were upgraded to first class on a transatlantic flight. We should have enjoyed the flight and the first class experience but our nervousness meant that we did not and have not flown since. 

In 2012, Boeing released a study of world-wide commercial jet airplane accidents between 1959 and 2011 reporting 1,798 accidents, 603 categorized as fatal, which accounted for 29,025 on-board fatalities and an additional 1,173 ground or non-commercial aircraft collision deaths...( ref Wikipedia)

If you buy a Euro lottery ticket you may win millions.

If you buy an airline ticket you may not live long enough to win the lottery.

I think the odds may surprise you* .... 116 million to 1 for winning the euro lottery, 11 million to 1 that you'll die in a plane crash..... do any of you do both?


*statistics from the net so a pinch of salt may be required


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

You lot worry too much. :smile2:


Mind you, I chucked my Passport away when I retired, I had my fill of sitting around in Airports and long haul flights. :frown2: I also had some interesting incidents over the years but anything you can walk away from is not really serious. :wink2:


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

Flying is the safest form of transport by a mile.

Basically, if you make it alive from home to the departure airport via train or bus or car, you've survived the dangerous bit of your journey.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Thanks Mike.
I have read about lots of flights that have come to grief but didn't know where to start listing.
But more recently the 300 who vanished in the south Pacific and the 240 blown up by Russian rebels over Ukrane stick in my mind.
Plus a whole host of light aircraft fatalities. Keep telling me it's safe because there are some lousy drivers out there.


Ray.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

And another thing............

How often do we come back from holiday with bugs, viruses and coughs through breathing the same recycled air as 300 other people.?
Friends who take several short holidays a year and others who do six months in Florida and six months here are always complaining about suffering some respiratory complication for weeks after.

Just another reason I have gone off flying.

Ray.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I was on a course in Amsterdam in 1994 and was booked on this flight as I was heading to Cardiff after the course http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLM_Cityhopper_Flight_433

My plans changed at the last minute and I got an earlier flight to Teesside. :surprise:


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## camallison (Jul 15, 2009)

barryd said:


> I was on a course in Amsterdam in 1994 and was booked on this flight as I was heading to Cardiff after the course http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLM_Cityhopper_Flight_433
> 
> My plans changed at the last minute and I got an earlier flight to Teesside. :surprise:


Ah yes, that famous airport Teesside (now mysteriously called "Durham Tees Valley" perhaps to confuse). Such a major airport nowadays that it was closed for 3 hours one day last week. Why? A microlight had crashed on the main runway!!!

Colin


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Of course the comparison of the safety of various forms of transport varies according to whetherone measures the number of journeys or passeger kilometres travelled Etc. By some measures rail travel is safer than flying.

Geoff


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Anyone still flying and anxious about it might try this Tablet App

*Am I Going Down? Fear of Flying App * <<<

_• Enter the details of your planned journey 
• View color-coded ranking of airline and aircraft safety 
• Calculate the overall flight safety for your next flight

Note: The statistics for Germanwings will be updated in the next release. _

Seems that there is an app for all things these days...

but What an unfortunate choice of name ....


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Risk/trasnsportpop.html

Peter


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Now can we find a link to a report/website that will explain to me what the odds are of me dying in an aircrash if I never get onto an aeroplane again :grin2:

I realise that the odds will not be zero... remembering 9/11, Clutha Vaults and Lockerbie


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Overall the chance you will die is 1 in 1.:wink2:


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

I don't know why people are apparently so concerned.

Flying is a safe mode of transport, but accidents happen, same as any other transportation method.

Fly with a flag carrier and that's about as good as it will get.

The problem with the most recent major incidents is that they are all 'unusual' in their circumstances. Until they are properly investigated (MH370 is as yet unlocated) you won't know what label to pin on the accident.

Asia Air is still under investigation, the Ukraine aircraft was almost certainly shot down my a missile, the Taiwan turboprop was caused by failure of an engine and then shutting the good one down.

The last one is apparently a deliberate act by the co-pilot. You can't blame anyone yet, but there seems to be some pointers to mental instability.

The rush to change flight deck occupancy rules in Europe (North America have had that 2-person rule for some time) shows the impact this is having in aviation circles. Nobody saw it coming.

Peter


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## flyinghigh (Dec 10, 2012)

Some perspective is needed here! Most of the reports so far listed are terrorists related or possibly mental instability on the Airbus,
Of course aircraft have mechanical problems but have redundancy on many systems, and are inherently safe, it's usually the human element that causes the problems,
An old joke in aviation circle is the latest aircraft have only a pilot and dog to operate, the pilot feeds the dog, and the dog bites the pilot if he touched any controls,

I have a interest here as I fly a light aircraft for fun, with the exception of running into bad weather unexpectedly it's a great way to see the world,
And I find driving driving around the M25 increases my anxiety level way beyond a trip across the Alps!

Just look in your part of the world and how many bunch of flowers do you see at the roadside, literally thousands die on the road each year and rarely do they get a mention, a aircraft comes down and its world news even if everyone survives,
Even climbing out of bed in the morning could be fraught with danger, but we all do it, :smile2:


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Agreed flyinghigh.
I also used to love flying but as more and more regulations, controls, restrictions, cost and inconveniences keep creeping in, it's lost what was a pleasure for me.

For me the added stress even before I get to the airport is making me question why I'm doing it. Maybe it's my age but I just don't feel I need to put myself through it all again.

Motoring used to be a pleasure. Taking a leisurely drive on a Sunday. But it's all changed and not for the better.

Ray.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

flyinghigh

What light aircraft across the Alps? Twin? Route, safety altitude, single-engine performance altitude?

We could not cross on some airways in a Viscount, allowing for engine failure on a four-engine turboprop.

Geoff


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## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

Well I'm definitely on the other side of the fence here - I love flying. I even enjoy sitting around in the airports. Once I've checked in, I grab a bite and a coffee, walk the shops (for the exercise mostly - ridiculous prices, unwanted merchandise!). When I'm flying, I'm always going to see someone I want to see, or go to a place I want to visit. What better options than that? I have also enjoyed trips for business but never enough to make it tedious.

My first flight was in April 1967 Salisbury (Harare) to Vilanculos in Mozambique in a DETA Dakota (honeymoon - nuff said). Second flight same trip in a 4-seater from Paradise Island (Santa Carolina) to Bazaruto and Vilanculos. From then on sold! Been on so many different planes since then. Highlight for me was when my son flew me to Isle of Wight, and again to Le Touquet in a trainer.

Got 3 long hauls booked this year. All on Emirates via Dubai and then a trip to Geneva and another to Amsterdam with Sleazy-Jet.

When its my time, it's my time. Flying is in my genes.

But Barry, how does this compare with your experience? Cousin was emigrating to Australia in the 70's. Family had booked to visit Victoria Falls one last time, but do to extra cost of shipping possessions they couldn't afford it and had to cancel...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Rhodesia_Flight_825


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

spykal said:


> Now can we find a link to a report/website that will explain to me what the odds are of me dying in an aircrash if I never get onto an aeroplane again :grin2:
> 
> I realise that the odds will not be zero... remembering 9/11, Clutha Vaults and Lockerbie


If you look at the link I posted earlier it says a 1 in 29 million chance of being killed in a SINGLE flight.

I think its the horrific thought of it and what it must be like that frightens people. I have been in more than my fair share of car and bike crashes and walked away from most of them but I guess you probably think that if your in a plane crash your not going to walk away from it but thats not always the case either. The stats (if you believe them) say you have a 24% chance or nearly 1 in 4 of not dying in an air crash.

The really horrific factor is if you know your going to die I guess. That must be scary. In a car crash you dont get time to think about it but 9/11, the plane the other day and probably even Lockerbie for all we know your going to know and that must be awful. The only saving grace about most of these incidents is at the time of impact its over quickly.

Off topic slightly it sounds like this Pilot who downed the aircraft in the French Alps was bragging to his ex Girlfriend of how the world would remember his name.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

We flew in the Viscounts in 1980 from Bulawayo / Vic Falls / Kariba / Bulawayo. We were told the story but I already knew most of it. A couple of acquaintances were ex Rhodesian SAS and Selous Scouts. One of them was in the bread van convoy into Mozambique.


I must be appalling for you to see how much the country has gone downhill since then. :frown2:


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## flyinghigh (Dec 10, 2012)

nicholsong said:


> flyinghigh
> 
> What light aircraft across the Alps? Twin? Route, safety altitude, single-engine performance altitude?
> 
> ...


My aircraft is a home built :grin2: Europa single engine its VFR only, but as I said you can get caught out with weather, but the upside to that is a fantastic adrenaline rush:smile2:
I have flown her over Mount blanc at 18000ft a few times but usually follow the valleys and passes with a 2000ft safety altitude or more,
With engine failure then their is only one way I will go, (down) but with a 12/1 glide ratio I still have options ,
Fantastic scenery up close and personal IMO their is nothing better,


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

flyinghigh said:


> My aircraft is a home built :grin2: Europa single engine its VFR only, but as I said you can get caught out with weather, but the upside to that is a fantastic adrenaline rush:smile2:
> I have flown her over Mount blanc at 18000ft a few times but usually follow the valleys and passes with a 2000ft safety altitude or more,
> With engine failure then their is only one way I will go, (down) but with a 12/1 glide ratio I still have options ,
> Fantastic scenery up close and personal IMO their is nothing better,


Sounds great! Personal craft are really cool. I was lucky enough about 10 years ago to have a customer in the music business who lived near me who had an ex Navy Gazelle Helicopter which we used to go to meetings at the likes of Manchester and Birmingham. We could do Manchester in just over half an hour (2 hours in the car). The GPS / Sat nav never worked and I was always navigator using a road map, general sense of direction and following the M6 etc.  Hi Tech it wasnt!

I would love one but with my track record I suspect at some point it will breakdown or crash and thats kind of ok in the motorhome but at 10000ft? with no wings? :frown2:


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## siggie (Oct 2, 2010)

flyinghigh said:


> I have flown her over Mount blanc at 18000ft a few times


On O2?


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## flyinghigh (Dec 10, 2012)

siggie said:


> On O2?


Oxymizer cannula from mountain high, in answer to a previous question I was still at climbing at 200 ft min when I stopped my climb because of controlled airspace,
It was also pretty chilly -4 at altitude and +30 on the ground but the views were magnificent :smile2: we always go to the Swiss EAA rally for experimental aircraft every year also the Austrian one at Krems,


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Just a Fender Bender..............................

http://travel.aol.co.uk/2015/03/30/...ing-grid7|uk-ws-bb|dl12|sec3_lnk6&pLid=340376

Ray.


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## Carl_n_Flo (May 10, 2005)

I have flown in aircraft of all types since 1966 - when I was 3.

First time was with my father in his Piper Colt out of White Waltham, and I have loved it ever since.

For me, the real passion has been light aircraft flying and my ambition to obtain my PPL was realised back in 1996. I managed to hang on to that licence for nearly 10 years until financial reasons forced me to hang up my goggles.

Civil flying is fine - it IS flying after all - but I dont have the same enjoyment.

As for feeling anxious or scared? No.......when your number is up, its up. If I am in an airliner that is 'going down' then I will kiss my wife goodbye if she is with me. There will be nowt I could do to alter things....

Life is too short to have it dictated to by fear.


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