# Spain and A frame



## bigles (May 26, 2008)

We are travelling through France and then on through Spain and into Portugal this coming winter. We are thinking about getting a Smart car to tow with us as we are going to be away for about 8 months, and I would prefer an A frame rather than a trailer.

Having read various messages I gather there can be problems in Spain towing with an A frame, so, if we were to unhook the car and my wife were to drive the Smart car behind me for the trip across northern Spain, where do you put the frame? Can it be stowed in the car or is it too big? If in the van, where do people stow it?

Thanks.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

My Car-A-Tow frame folds and easily stows in the boot.

Ray.


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

The frames are really very small, fold up and would fit in a Smart boot.

Seems a shame to have to drive separately. If you use it chances are that if you are stopped (and that is a big if) you will be told to unhook. 

But it is a risk, you may not want to spend hours with a mossos struggling in Spanish or risk an on the spot fine.

My advice has always been that you weigh up the risks and make your own decision based on what is right for you. 

The law is not settled in Spain (or Germany), no court cases, in the UK and IOM we operate on the fiction that an car when mounted on an A Frame becomes a trailer. Not sure they have that fiction (and it is a fiction, it is still a car, has motive power etc) in Spain. You don't want to be the test case. 

Most of the problem has been caused by towing restrictions for cars caused by ropes etc, so now its a trailer or a dolly (for recovery only) in EU legislation.

So the question boils down to this when is a car a car and can it be a trailer. UK law seems to suggest it can, but even that is not been established by the courts


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## clive1821 (Mar 27, 2010)

Yes it's just a risk, as every thing in life, I'm in Portugal, and been in various camp sites, 50% of the long term vans on site have cars, and 50% were towed from their homes, not all uk based, and seemed not to have had any issues, when I was coming down I did notice a few cars been towed,with out any issues. Me thinks if you don't draw attention to yourselves the risk is well worth taking rather than having the pain of dealing with a trayer. Just my view, not having a car here, nor a trailer. If I was going to have a car here I know which way I would go.... Just enjoy life and not worry about the jobs worth as we seem to in the uk....


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## bigles (May 26, 2008)

Having read aout the problems with A frames in Spain we were just going to unhook for the trip across northern Spain to get to Portugal.


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

> The law is not settled in Spain (or Germany), no court cases, in the UK and IOM we operate on the fiction that an car when mounted on an A Frame becomes a trailer. Not sure they have that fiction (and it is a fiction, it is still a car, has motive power etc) in Spain. You don't want to be the test case.


It is not illegal to have a A Frame in Spain. It only becomes illegal if you use it!

Spanish law prohibits the towing of one car by another car unless it is on a trailer or being "recovered" following a breakdown or accident.

France has a similar law, but do not seem to enforce it YET!

It does not unfortunately become a trailer in the eyes of Spanish plod.

The fine is somewhere between 40 and 80 euro. Is it worth the risk? Only you can decide.


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

DJP said:


> [
> Spanish law prohibits the towing of one car by another car unless it is on a trailer or being "recovered" following a breakdown or accident.
> 
> It does not unfortunately become a trailer in the eyes of Spanish plod.
> ...


The question of whether the car attached to an A Frame and then towed is a car or a trailer is not settled law in Spain, there are several cases of appeals against the on the spot fine having ben remitted by a senior administrative official in the community or region on an administrative basis beacause the car was a "remolque" or trailer

BUT the traffic police are clearly treating it as an illegally towed car


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## DeeGee7 (Jun 22, 2009)

bigles said:


> We are travelling through France and then on through Spain and into Portugal this coming winter. We are thinking about getting a Smart car to tow with us as we are going to be away for about 8 months, and I would prefer an A frame rather than a trailer.
> 
> Having read various messages I gather there can be problems in Spain towing with an A frame, so, if we were to unhook the car and my wife were to drive the Smart car behind me for the trip across northern Spain, where do you put the frame? Can it be stowed in the car or is it too big? If in the van, where do people stow it?
> 
> Thanks.


Hi Bigles,
It is illegal to tow on an A frame in Spain as shown on the British Embassy site:
http://ukinspain.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-spain/cars
It's at the very bottom of the page.


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## prog54 (Nov 22, 2010)

Confused here.
What about the claims by some/a Smart car towing frame company that their system complies with EU regulations and therefore safe to use on European roads because of the type of breaking and reversing system used which apparently overcomes the problem.


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

First it is not an EU matter directly, its covered by the Vienna Convention on international circulation, which is in effect a UN body.

Second neither the UK nor Spain are fully signed up to/have ratified the latest version of Vienna.

Third it is a grey area. The Spanish Law is silent as to whether the the car becomes a trailer or is still a car. So is the law in the UK. In UK it is accepted by the authorities that it does, in Spain the police are saying it doesn't; BUT in neither country has it been tested in court. 

Fourth the German position is different yet again as they have some very specific regulations about the distances between wheels and axles for trailers and most cars on an A frame infringe those anyway

The Embassy statement is strictly accurate, but simplistic, and would be true of the law in the UK as well, if the car being towed on an A frame is a car. If it is "converted" into a trailer, then as long as the trailer meets the regulations governing trailers, which are identical across the EU it is not against the law.

That is, and always has been, the €64,000 question, when is a car a trailer, can it be a trailer?

Many things the UK diplomatic service maybe, but able to give definitive advice on the law of another country is not one of them, same is true of the authorities here and the interpretation by civil servants that a compliant A frame system enables a towed car to be regarded as a trailer. At the end of the day it is a matter for the courts.

For the prospective A frame user , and once again

There is a risk, you will not want to struggle with spanish bureaucracy or the courts and be a test case, the on spot fine is not high, therer is convenience, you must weigh it all up.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

I find it wonderfully yet frustratingly ironic you have laws defining what a trailer must do, yet no definition of a trailer.

I must confess it is currently academic for me, but if I were wanting to spend time with my motorhome and car in Spain, I'd be content to risk it, knowing my defence is "It's a trailer! I'm trailing it! It does all your laws requires a trailer to do! If you think I'm wrong point out your law that says it doesn't comply!"

I'd have print-outs in English and Spanish showing how it complies with trailer law.

Dave


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## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

As well as an A-Frame the Toad really needs a removable engine to be a true trailer.


SD


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## DeeGee7 (Jun 22, 2009)

prog54 said:


> Confused here.
> What about the claims by some/a Smart car towing frame company that their system complies with EU regulations and therefore safe to use on European roads because of the type of breaking and reversing system used which apparently overcomes the problem.


Hi prog54,

The Caravan Club already warns its members of the illegality of using A-Frames abroad. Quote from their website:-

"Every country has its own traffic and driving regulations, we have tried to cover most of these with the information below, however, more detailed information can be found in our Caravan Europe guide, volumes one, two and three.

A-Frames 
If you would like to tow a car behind a motor caravan in Europe, our advice would be to use a trailer with all four wheels of the car off the ground.

Although most countries in Europe do not have a specific law banning A-frames they do have a law which prohibits 'a motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle', and it is down to the local police how they interpret their own laws.

We have been contacted by a small number of members who have been stopped and fined for using an A-frame (particularly in Spain), and the fines range from €42.00 to €250.00. We have also been contacted by members who have travelled thousands of miles in Europe and not had any problems at all, however, if you want 100% guarantee that you are legal, you need to use a trailer with all four wheels of the car off the ground."

I think the relevant part is : Although most countries in Europe do not have a specific law banning A-frames they do have a law which prohibits 'a motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle'

It can't be any clearer than that.


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

deegee that still leaves the question about whether a car attached to an A frame and compliant with trailer regs is a car or a trailer.

The CC info does not say it is illegal, just that it is illegal to pull a car behind another vehicle execpt on at trailer or for recovery. That is the same all over the EU including the UK.

I repeat this is at present interpretation by the police, not by the courts, and only the courts can be definitive, but I agree it is not worh beiong a guinea pig/test case and depends on what level of risk you are exposed to and willing to take. 

The solution is to define what a trailer is.


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## DeeGee7 (Jun 22, 2009)

thieawin said:


> deegee that still leaves the question about whether a car attached to an A frame and compliant with trailer regs is a car or a trailer.
> 
> The CC info does not say it is illegal, just that it is illegal to pull a car behind another vehicle execpt on at trailer or for recovery. That is the same all over the EU including the UK.
> 
> ...


That is not likely to happen in Spain as their traffic rules do not allow for a vehicle towing another vehicle unless it is on a trailer.

From another web site:
Instrucción 08/V-74 (In English)

INSTRUCTION 08/V-74 FROM THE SPANISH DIRECTOR GENERAL OF TRAFFIC RELATIVE TO MOTORHOMES

MINISTRY OF INTERIOR :

8. - AUXILIARY TRANSPORT VEHICLES

It is very common for motorhomes to transport auxiliary vehicles, usually bicycles or a motorcycle or a moped of small cylinder capacity. This practice is authorised provided an approved cycle carrier or platform for this purpose is used and when this overhangs the perimeter of the motorhome, the following conditions are met in accordance with the provisions of Articles 15 of the General Rules of Circulation:

a. If it protrudes from the projection in plant of the motorhome, at the rear, up to 10% of its length and if only one vehicle (indivisible load), 15%.

b. All appropriate precautions should be taken to prevent damage or hazard to other road users, and the protruding element should be protected to minimize damage by possible rubbing against it or collision.

c. If a carrier, it should be marked by the signal V-20 referred to in Article 173 and whose features are set out in Annex XI of the General Rules of vehicles. This signal is placed at the rear of the cargo so as to constantly be perpendicular to the axis of the vehicle.

Consultations have also been made on the possibility of a motorhome being allowed to tow a car; but that possibility is prohibited by Article 9.3 of the General Rules of vehicles that prohibits the circulation of a motor vehicle dragging another, except when it is damaged or broken down and cannot be towed by another vehicle specifically intended for that purpose, in which case it is allowed only to tow to the nearest town or village where it can be detained without hindering the traffic, and always provided they are not travelling on a motorway or highway. 
Notwithstanding the foregoing, the circulation of a combination composed of a motor vehicle and a trailer or semi trailer on which another vehicle is transported, is allowed if the combination meets the conditions for driving on public roads and is approved according to Directives 70/156/EEC and 94/20/EC and also does not exceed the maximum permitted length for these combinations which is that of 18.75 meters for trailers and 16.50 meters for semi trailers.

I hope that makes it clearer.


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

deegee it is exactly what I have said, guidance only, and not a court interpretation. So no it is no clearer, the position in Spain and UK is exactly the same legislation wise as to one vehicle towing another, moreor less. What you have posted does not address the question of whether the towed vehicle becomes a trailer or remolque


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## prog54 (Nov 22, 2010)

I have just looked at a well know installer of towing frames for Smart cars and this is what is stated.
I have sustituted the product name for "Our System"

Q=Do you offer an Extended Warranty?

A=Yes! We offer up to 3 years of extended warranty and also include our legal indemnity against fines incurred in EU Member States*

Q=What if I am stopped by Police in the EU and fined?

A=We have never had one of "Our System" stopped in Europe. We are so confident in the legality of "Our System" that, as part of our Extended Warranty, we will pay the Fine*

Q=I would like to be assured my system meets European legal requirements, can you provide a Declaration of Conformance?

A=Yes! We can self certify a Declaration of Conformity for "Our System" fitted at any of our Install centres. Complete peace of mind.

So are they saying that by using this towing system it overcomes any problems of being stopped and fined on the spot or is it misleading.


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## javea (Jun 8, 2007)

prog54 said:


> So are they saying that by using this towing system it overcomes any problems of being stopped and fined on the spot or is it misleading.


I think it is misleading, certainly as far as Spain is concerned.

It is illegal to tow one vehicle with another. Always has been. No if buts or whatever's.

All car insurance policies issued in Spain include breakdown recovery as standard for this reason.

No point in arguing the point of 'is it a trailer' because as far as the Spanish authorities are concerned it is a motorised vehicle and it illegal to tow it in any way other than on a trailer.

Affected me as I regularly A framed to and from Spain, can't do it now and the frame is stored in the garage.


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

As a system for towing a trailer they are correct, as a system for towing a car they are clearly wrong, even in the UK. You cannot legally tow a a car on an A frame in the UK. You can legally tow a trailer on an A frame in the UK.

Vehicle is defined in the regs in UK, and by EU directives, so it should be the same in Spain, but trailer isn't. In law, in both Spain and UK, it may well be that a car on an A frame becomes a trailer, we just cannot know absolutely until a court decides.

I have no doubt their rig is legal to tow a trailer, in UK the car becomes a trailer for the purposes of the law, but it may not be considered legal in Spain if it is towing a car, same could be true here.

How can they possible with confidence say no one using their rig has been stopped and fined, just that no one has told them and claimed back the fine, yet.

This highlights, yet again, the true question which is when is a car a car and can it become a trailer?


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## sparky20006 (Apr 18, 2011)

Here's a link to a company who say they are so confident that you will not get stopped they will even pay the fine!

(second question down)

http://www.smart-tow.com/faqs.htm

Might be worth giving them a call?

Paul


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

And this is the link on their site which refers to the Vienna Convention on International Circulation 1968

http://www.smart-tow.com/legal.htm

And this link confirms that UK and Spain have not ratified it and so it is not in force in Spain and UK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Traffic

NB

1. trailer is not defined

2. If it is a trailer when attached to an A frame in your home country the visited country must allow it to be used temporarily. That is why we need to be sure it is a trailer when on an A frame, not a car being towed.

3. As Spain and UK have not ratified it cannot be used to justify temporary legal use in Spain under the 1968 convention of an A Frame that is legal elsewhere

To that extent I consider Smart Tow to be wrong when they refer to A Frame use in Spain. Other countries, as long as the A Frame use is legal in UK, must allow use, even Germany. The wiki link above lists the countries to which it applies

NB NB The 1949 Convention still applies to countries such as Australia, US, UK and Spain, I cannot find a full copy with the annexes. It also covers international circulation of a vehicle pulling a trailer, but the relevant text is in an annex


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

This post by Brian on aboutandabout summed it up for me:

_What the DfT said is that when towed on an A-frame a car could be considered a trailer, not that it becomes a trailer. That was not a legal judgement, it was the opinion of a civil servant. It is of relevance in UK only, because the person concerned is a British civil servant, with no jurisdiction whatever outside the UK. It is a get-around, a fiddle, a somewhat specious argument, to make using an A-frame on UK roads arguably permissible, based on the practice not being banned under current UK legislation. However, this concerns only towing, not the vehicles themselves, or the means by which they are towed.

To prove his opinion one way or other, there will have to be specific UK legislation, or a court case that would establish a comon law precedent. However, even the latter would not be conclusive, because the decision could be reversed by another case, or on appeal, unless and until appealed to the Law Lords for determination. Somehow, I think Hell will freeze first!

When we come to France or Spain his opinion becomes totally irrelevant because, apart from its being based on a liberal interpretation of UK law, it cannot supplant French or Spanish laws that actually ban one vehicle (meaning vehicle as defined under either Spanish, or French, law - not as defined in Wikipedia ) from towing another. _

Ian


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Isn't the bottom line simply that the precedence of "It's not a trailer, it's a motor vehicle!" and "It's not a motor vehicle, it's a trailer!" is undefined?

Dave


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## prog54 (Nov 22, 2010)

Yes Sparky and Thieawin
That is the company I was refering to without advertising.
But they do appear to be very confident.


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

olley said:


> This post by Brian on aboutandabout summed it up for me:
> 
> _What the DfT said is that when towed on an A-frame a car could be considered a trailer, not that it becomes a trailer. That was not a legal judgement, it was the opinion of a civil servant. It is of relevance in UK only, because the person concerned is a British civil servant, with no jurisdiction whatever outside the UK. It is a get-around, a fiddle, a somewhat specious argument, to make using an A-frame on UK roads arguably permissible, based on the practice not being banned under current UK legislation. However, this concerns only towing, not the vehicles themselves, or the means by which they are towed.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more, but if it is a trailer by UK legal fiction then if the 1968 convention applied to Spain the Spanish would have to accept it temporarily, but 1968 does not apply to Spain. I think 1949, which did, provides nearly identically.

So it is nothing to do with the EU, and everything to do with the UN and Vienna, so lobbying via EU, MEPs, etc will avail nothing, and quoting EU and Spanish Plod will not impress anyone


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