# Why are most large Motorhomes Illegal to use?



## 90304 (May 1, 2005)

Hi

It has always been a concern for me that many 5 & 6 berth 'vans have less that 400 kg of user payoad - how can this be? Six average people weigh over 400kg - so when everyone gets on, some six berth 'vans are already illegally over loaded. Dealers may mention payload in passing, if they are forced too, but facts and figures were not mentioned to us when we bought our 'van. If a designer and manufacturer of motorhomes sells a 6 berth 'van, surely the implication is that 6 people can travel legally in the vehicle, and given that they have facilities for storage of food, clothing and bedding, is it not reasonable that they should take these things with them? Also, why should a vehicle designed as a mobile home for touring, be restricted to use on the road only with empty water tanks? It cannot be self sufficient as intended. If we pay £50k for such a vehicle, and we cannot LEGALLY use it in a reasonable way for the purpose it is intended, the vehicle is not fit for its purpose - surely the manufacturer is comitting an offence of selling an illegal vehicle?

I have always been concious of the issue, but as we have 510kg payload and there are only 4 of us, I have never weighed the,'van and have never been challenged. That is not to say that when we have packed up to go to France for two weeks, for example, that I would have bet my salary we weren't overloaded!

The fines for overloading are very great and a very overloaded driver can be subject to a driving ban - a serious penalty if both your livelyhood and leisure time depend on your ability to drive, as mine do.

What are your views on this 
:?: 

Nigel


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Hi nigelt
I cannot comment on the legality but I'm sure an expert will soon enough, but the reason that manufacturers end up in this position is because everyone wants a 27ft MH that weighs about 1/2 tonne and gives 50 MPG.
Can't have it all as they say.
We find that our American RV was built from the other end of the thought process, it has everything you could want, all solidly built (real timber inside, not flimsy reinforced cardboard) and the penalty is that it does not give massive fuel economy. As far as payload I think I could transport all seven seat belted people, plus all the kit they could wish to take, plus all my tools and odds and sods, with all the humungous tanks filled to brimming along with the collosal fridge freezer full etc etc. Then I could tow a 4 x 4 behind and not notice. I would probably get about 10 - 12 MPG with this lot cruising at 65 on cruise control in air conditioned luxury and not slow down on hills.
IMO that is the difference between over here and over there.....
Weight = fuel consumption, that I believe is the bottom line.

Keith


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## Road_Runner_644 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Nigel

I wasn't going to post tonight, working late and just a quick glimpse would have done me, but this one get's my back up as well.

Lot's of Motorhomes have a really crap payload, mine included. I dread the day when i finaly take it down to the local weighbridge and find i'm breaking the law when fully loaded. 

It's pretty useless to make a 6 berth MH and then have a 500kg paload, I haven't tested our's yet, but am thinking abour re-plating, as I know in reality that we are probably overweight.

There are lot's of us in this position, with air assistance fitted to rear springs, and decent tyres replacing the standard fit jobs, we have the chassis, tyres and suspension to cope. But we have a van that has been sold to avoid a higher tax as a 3500kg.

Good post - Good point.

Dave


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## 88726 (May 9, 2005)

hi dave

a very good point indeed ! i never thought about the tax implications . another factor has to be cost or greed/profit . there are more expensive base vehicles with better carrying capacity better suited to a motorhome build but at a higher cost . my transit is a prime example , should have been built on a twin rear wheel axle with the triple springs instead of the parcel van set up . as allways i end up doing my own upgrade to fix the manufacturers shortcomings .
the older mercedes is in the same boat , although hymer did for a time use some nice big twin wheelers .


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## 88966 (May 11, 2005)

Hi Guys,

I don't have a problem with any of your main points but I am not sure which higher tax you are referring to ??

Road tax for a vehicle up to 7,500 Kgs is the same if taxed private.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Never heard of a 'higher tax' :? 
Motorhomes of any size and weight, including RVs, are classed as cars.... not LGV or HGV vehicles..

I agree with Kands, US mororhomes are built fit for purpose from the chassis up while the vast majority of C class Europeans are adapted from panel vans which IMO are not fit for purpose.. 
Constructors 'chop off ' the cab, add a longer Alko chassis and expect the same engine and drive train to cope with a fully loaded vehicle 100% of the time .. 
Is it any wonder the base vehicle makers don't honour warranties when gear boxes and drive shafts fail ..

You pay £50k for a vehicle that has beds for six yet has a payload for two, you can't drive with full tanks for fear of overloading, needs the suspension upgraded with air bags. This isn't 'fit for purpose' 
:roll: :roll:


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

'Road Tax' over 3500Kg is in fact different (though by a minimal amount).

Up to 3500 kg a 'van is rated as Private Light Goods for tax class, above it is classed as Private Heavy Goods. 

Currently around £5 p.a. difference in Vehicle Excise Duty (and though it used to be the reverse, it currently seems to be in favour of the heavier vehicle!).

The main problems with replating to above 3500kg are that of driving licence (unless you have retained rights to drive over 3500kg) and more importantly, the increasing limitations on vehicles over 3500kg in respect of speed limits, tolls, access etc.


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## 88934 (May 10, 2005)

BillD said:


> Road tax for a vehicle up to 7,500 Kgs is the same if taxed private.


In this country yes. But I wonder about other EU areas?

RR has a LHD Hymer. German made is it not?

Now if Hymer supply such vehicles to various EU markets, where tax implications may well be a selling factor, then they may not make an exception if the UK is the odd one out?

And I wonder about import duties. Does anyone know if it costs more to import a motorhome over 3500kg for example? If it does, then shipping them in <3500kg may save money?

I am only guessing here 

But there may be a reason somewhere for this down plating of vehicles. As nearly all Fiat Ducato based motorhomes are plated at 3400 or 3500kg. When in fact, the manufacturers rating is 3800kg. Therefore to re-plate at the higher weight often doesn't require any work to be carried out on the vehicle.

So I suspect somewhere along the line, there is a money saving exercise relating to tax, duties, or the likes, dunno !

Just a thought !


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

This is puzzling me, my Registration Certificate states : 

Body Type: Motor Caravan
Tax Class : Private Light Goods 
Cylinder Capacity: 5900 cc
Fuel : Heavy Oil
Wheel Plan: Two axle rigid body 
Vin Number: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Colour: White/Red

This is an RV... GVW 19,000 US lb / 8618 kg 
Tax renewed in July was £170 

:?
Any explanation ?


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi scotjimland because yours was registered before 2001 you pay £5.00 more tax than me and i go 9360kg. work that one out!

olley


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

Wrongly registered.....

It happens.

PLG is limited to 3500kg max. (Is the revenue weight filled in on your V5c...if it is, Swansea should have caught it).

You should be PHG.

See www.dvla.org.uk (vehicle section) for details. (Though the DVLA is not known for its clarity in any of its documentation).


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

RobinHood said:


> See www.dvla.org.uk (vehicle section) for details. (Though the DVLA is not known for its clarity in any of its documentation).


Oops

Should, of course, be www.dvla.gov.uk :roll:


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## 88966 (May 11, 2005)

Hi,

My previous statement was incorrect and Robinhood is correct.

I thought that as my car was taxed after my 'van that the £5 extra was a 'normal' tax increase !!


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

RobinHood said:


> Wrongly registered.....
> 
> It happens.
> 
> ...


Are you suggesting that all RVs over 3500kg are wrongly registered? I haven't seen one registered as PHG , they are classed as PLG not HGV vehicles

I think the problem is that motorcaravans are NOT a recognised class of vehicle..


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

ScotJimland said:


> Are you suggesting that all RVs over 3500kg are wrongly registered? I haven't seen one registered as PHG , they are classed as PLG not HGV vehicles


I am suggesting it, but given the vagaries of the DVLA, am happy to hear someone state otherwise (there may be certain residual rights applying which are not clearly documented).

The info on their site is clear, PLG is limited to 3500kg max.

I am on my second 'van of 3850 kg GVW, both registered from new in PHG taxation class by different dealers.

I have also seen several sets of correspondence from people who have had such vehicles registered as PLG, and have ended up re-registering.

There was certainly a spate of such correspondence on MMM, and I'm not sure it hasn't been touched on in these pages.

Extracted from Caravan Club site

"Private Heavy Goods Vehicle A vehicle excise duty classification which applies to motor caravans with a gross vehicle weight in excess of 3500kg. Currently slightly higher than the duty for cars and lighter motor caravans."


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Their right mine was regestered in may this year as PHG however my 2L ford galaxy cost's 170 to tax, 8.1L RV only 165 crazy or what

Olley


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

I can see where a mistake could be made, I'm paying £5 too much then .. 


Private HGV 
(Exceeding 3,500kg) 12 months
rate £165.00

Mine may have been classed as PLG when registered in 1997 as PHG is a recent classification ??


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

I'll have to check my V5 when it arrives back from DVLA, could do with saving £5 :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Does having the RV registered as PHG have any impact on the licensing, ie can I still drive it on a car type license?? Seem to remember that it is OK but just checking.

Keith


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

kands said:


> Does having the RV registered as PHG have any impact on the licensing, ie can I still drive it on a car type license


Hi Keith, another can of worms ... I'm not going into this one, GT is the man to consult.. :wink:


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Thought so Jim, that's why I lobbed it in as it seems to fall into the same can as the rest of the thread..

Keith


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## MicknPat (Jul 18, 2005)

*Motorhome Driving Licence Categories*



kands said:


> Does having the RV registered as PHG have any impact on the licensing, ie can I still drive it on a car type license?? Seem to remember that it is OK but just checking.
> 
> Keith


Keith,

I obtained a DVLA D100 leaflet from the Post Office only the other day section 9 on page 13 is titled *Motorhomes *and states:



> When driving a motorhome it is the maximum authorised mass (the total weight of the vehicle plus the maximum load it can carry) which is relevant in determining the driving entitlement you need.
> To drive any vehicle including a motorhome:
> * between 3.5 and 7.5 tonnes,you need a category C1 licence
> * over 7.5 tonnes you need a category C licence.


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Thanks Mick :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Keep on trucking then.................

Bring me my Yorkie bar, we're off......

Keith


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

As the DVLA sites says over 3500kg its a PHG, if you passed your test before 1996 and as long as your RV is under 7.5 GVW they are happy for you to drive it. the arguments all start after this point. or maybe before, or in the middle, who knows :roll: 

olley


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## 96414 (Oct 1, 2005)

Hi 

Its way to complicated to give a brief rundown, on tax front Bigger vehicle is £5 cheaper to tax and taxed as Private Heavy Goods Vehicle.

British law on this is a complete and utter mess, DVLA Try to make out that a motorhome over 3.5 Tonnes into an HGV, at the bottom of the page were it says this, it says that vehicle definitions are the responsibility of Construction and Use dept, construction and Use dept say that a motorhome is not a Goods vehicle it doesnt fit the definition at all (also check out Maxwell and Sweet vehicle law book at you local library)

Only case ever bought by Crown was adjourned 3 times then withdrawn by CPS they cited lack of evidence, strange as they had Plod on ground, camera evidence and a signed "confession" from the driver saying he was driving this huge motorhome and is licence was not up to it weight wise under DVLA "opinion", he was also driving in second overtaking lane, where HGV arenot allowed. I have spoken to CPS and they still maintain lack of evidence, but perversly admit that all the above evidence on still on file and not lost, If you want to follow this up ring CPS Wolverhampton area, its now been archived so it will probably take them a while to dig it out, you will find the relative name and case date in another thread here.

Also had a long running debate with DVLA and ultimately with their legal dept, I asked them to quote the law that backed their opinion and they kept sending their opinion but could not quote the law to back it up.

Your local Police have a dept they can ring night and day to find Road Traffic Law, I contacted the local one while they were looking through law they agreed with me, when they posted out an in writing they sent DVLA opnion notes duh, I did ring back but got nowhere. 

I am not going to revisit this topic in any depth, look up the archives here.

BTW the bigger motorhome's are ilegal on other grounds too, they are not on the exempted list for Tachograph's, not fitted with speed restrictors, many are too wide to be legal in UK, not many at all can carry the weight they were designed for (as you say six people who were not anorexic would overload the vehicle)


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## 96414 (Oct 1, 2005)

For test its pre 97 that includes the 7.5 tonne provision.


Yes that's what the DVLA state, if you want to bug them big style, ask what British law backs that up, ask them for the Road Traffic Act that supports their view.

Also ask how they defined motorhomes, they do not have a seperate definition under law. Goods vehicles are clearly defined and a motorhome is not a goods vehicle (100% definate confirmed by the dept that legislation says decides) . Many vehicles do not have a weight classification ie a Minibus can be 15 Tonnes and its still legal for a post 97 Licence holder to drive it, so weight cannot be the deciding factor.


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

Whilst the weight of the vehicle has an effect on both taxation class and  eligibilty to drive, they are separate matters.

As already posted, as far as I can ascertain, anything over 3500kg GVW should be registered as PHG for taxation class reasons.

AFAIK, you can drive anything up to 3500kg GVW on a standard car licence (as delivered if you pass your test under current legislation), and up to 7500kg GVW (under retained rights) if you passed your test prior to 1997.

(I am aware of the debate going on about driving RV's above 7500kg on a car licence, and have no further comment).

We then get onto speed limits, which on the continent appear to be alligned to the GVW, with specific limits coming in at 3500kg.

In the UK, however, specifically for motorcaravans the limits change (and become more restrictive) at 3050kg unladen weight!

A legislative nightmare.


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## 88934 (May 10, 2005)

*Re: Motorhome Driving Licence Categories*



Mick_P said:


> To drive any vehicle including a motorhome:
> * between 3.5 and 7.5 tonnes,you need a category C1 licence
> * over 7.5 tonnes you need a category C licence.


It is also worth noting that when you get to 70 years of age, should you still be driving, your C1 entitlement is removed I believe.

Which means you are restricted to 3.5t max.. Unless you send in a D1 medical form with the application? This is a bit like having a HGV medical at the doctors. He says your fit still to drive big vehicles, and signs the form and your OK.

Now, If I remember correctly (anyone over 70 here to confirm), you have to do the medical bit annually from then on to keep your C1 entitlement.


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## 96414 (Oct 1, 2005)

Hi 

Quote

AFAIK, you can drive anything up to 3500kg GVW on a standard car licence (as delivered if you pass your test under current legislation), and up to 7500kg GVW (under retained rights) if you passed your test prior to 1997. 

End

If the above were strictly true, then it would stop anyone driving a Minibus weighing over 3.5 Tonnes on a post 97 Licence and 7.5 Tonnes on a pre 97 licence, DVLA will confirm that there are no weight limits on these. These are just some of the anomoloies.


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

temporary said:


> Many vehicles do not have a weight classification ie a Minibus can be 15 Tonnes and its still legal for a post 97 Licence holder to drive it, so weight cannot be the deciding factor.


Maybe a matter of interpretation, but having hired a minibus recently, I do not believe this is true. AFAIK, if you passed a standard car test after '97, you are generally limited to a 3500kg GVW for a minibus (though there are some minor exceptions to this, including weight allowance for, say, a disabled lift).

For pre-'97 qualification, I think you are correct, there is no specific limitation in driver licensing law (though C&U may define some characteristics of a minibus).


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

kands said:


> Thought so Jim, that's why I lobbed it in as it seems to fall into the same can as the rest of the thread..
> 
> Keith


Now look what youv'e started :lol: :lol: :lol:

olley


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

I knew this would happen, 
can't beat a good legal discussion on a Sat morning 8)


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## 88974 (May 11, 2005)

Hi,

Here in Ireland in order to register a second hand vehicle for the low rate (50 euro) when importing, the vehicle must weigh over 3,000 tonne. This weight is taken with no passengers or driver, and all tanks must be empty. Therefore if you import a vehicle from Germany with a max payload of 3,500kg once the unladen weight is over 3,000 kg you pay 50euro to the registration office ( your equivalent to the dvla) Now that I consider is a problem, if you only have a payload of around 450kg when empty, you have to be well over the payload when travelling. This must be dangerous. The reason most people don't want a bigger payload is because of their licence as they are only able to drive vehicles up to 3,500kg without having to resit another driving test. A lot of people seem to turning a blind eye to the fact that they are driving with a dangerous vehicle because the m/h suits their needs i.e. a bigger vehicle and are still able to drive it with their licence. One wonders if the time comes when motorhomes will be pulled in to be weighed as the H.G.V.s are now. How many of us would be legally underweigth, very few is my guess. So until the time comes when manufacturers do not produce vehicles with an unrealistic payload then people will keep on buying them. 

With regard to tax, I have just paid mine this week, For all vehicles classed as camper vans the tax for the year is 78 euro (around 45 pounds) regardless of what the size.


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## 88934 (May 10, 2005)

temporary said:


> If the above were strictly true, then it would stop anyone driving a Minibus weighing over 3.5 Tonnes on a post 97 Licence and 7.5 Tonnes on a pre 97 licence, DVLA will confirm that there are no weight limits on these. These are just some of the anomoloies.


Minibuses are another can of worms ;-)


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## 88934 (May 10, 2005)

RobinHood said:


> I do not believe this is true. AFAIK, if you passed a standard car test after '97, you are generally limited to a 3500kg GVW for a minibus .


You don't get D1 (minibus) if you passed post 97. But you can still drive a minibus under certain circumstances and restrictions.

One of those restrictions is indeed that the vehicle is 3500kg max.

So I would agree that you can't drive over 3500kg minibus on a post 97 license.


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

ScotJimland said:


> I knew this would happen,
> can't beat a good legal discussion on a Sat morning 8)


Take a thousand lines RobinHood

I must go out and work on the 'van.

I must go out and work on the 'van.

I must go out and work on the 'van.

I must go out ...........

I must not reply to another post by G...., I mean Temporary

8) 8)


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## Enodreven (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi, I don't know if i am correct, but it does seem that more attention is paid to the weight/user payload in Europe e.g France/Germany etc. When you ask some dealers or private people selling MH's in the UK about the weights they don't aways appear to know ?? what the limitations are. I have assumed that perhaps this is because when traverling in the UK not much attention is paid to the problem as we don't have many toll roads etc. that make charges based upon weight. 

I have also noticed that most of the replies on this thread come for the RV owners ??

It would be nice to hear from our European members how they deal with the problem of vehicles being plated lower than the capacity necessary to carry a full compliment of passengers + luggage 

Brian


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

As motorhomes are PLG or PHG do they need to be plated? if not then can you actually be done for overloading.

Olley


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## 96414 (Oct 1, 2005)

Hi

Regarding minibuses

check out the minibus rules post 97

Unless I am misreading this it say that 12 tonnes even after 97

Hi Olley

Yes, they need to have weight limits, under construction and use there are set limits for axle ratings etc, so all vehicles have design weights which it is ilegal to exceed. Plating is an area of HGV that we dont need to delve into as motorhomes are NOT HGV.


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

8O George has all the qoutes and legalities down to a 'T'. He will no doubt be along to correct everyone shortly. :lol:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

If you don't need plating how do the police know wether your overloaded if they stop you?

olley


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

Enodreven said:


> It would be nice to hear from our European members how they deal with the problem of vehicles being plated lower than the capacity necessary to carry a full compliment of passengers + luggage
> Brian


There are an increasing number of checks being carried out by (I think) VOSA. If you are found to be overweight, then you can be fined, but you will not be allowed to continue until you remedy the situation. (draining the fresh water is one method that can help).

In reality, the rule is caveat emptor - buy a vehicle that is appropriate for your use (and this takes the thread almost full circle, as we have already had a discussion about the ethics - or even the leagality - of building six berth motorhomes with, arguably, insufficient payload for six people).

I have ordered three of my 'vans (including the last two) on chassis rated higher than standard.

In the first case (An A/S Symphony) it was actually built on a higher spec base (and I paid handsomely for the privilege).

In the second, (a Benimar 6000ST) it was built by default on the maxi chassis, and the factory ship at 3500kg, but RDH (rip) would arrange for upgrade through SVTech - a paper exercise only - a privilege I paid for again, albeit somewhat less handsomely.

In the third, my current van, Rapido build on the maxi/alko chassis and will ship at either 3500 or 3850kg on request. So mine was shipped at the higher weight and there was no cost.

It is possible to uprate most chassis to a given limit. Most current Maxi chassis are shipped entirely capable of being upgraded to 3850 or 4000kg without modification (subject to the appropriate tyres having been fitted from scratch). The Michelin XC Camping ones are OK. Paperwork is, however, required.

Other (less than 3500kg) Chassis can be upgraded to different limits by strengthening the rear axle and springs (accompanied by paperwork), and possibly upgrading tyres.

Whilst not cheap, neither is this extortionate.

Two companies in the Leyland area will advise

www.svtech.co.uk

www.tvac.co.uk

Very similar service.

Once the technical options have been exhausted, however, then its all down to load - minimum fresh water, consider a trailer, etc.


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## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

Quite interesting this discussion!
I have just checked the plates, 2, on our motorhome to ensure my memory was correct. We have the strange(?) situation that under the bonnet where the manufacturers plate is it states MGLW as 3500 but the convertor has put a plate on the side that says MGLW 3280, so which do I have to abide by? Until now I have tried to keep within the 3280, but can I use up to the chassis manufacturers 3500?


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## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

Deleted repeat of previous. 
Sorry not sure why this happened, its not the first time either.


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## 88934 (May 10, 2005)

These will offer great help..

http://www.tvac.co.uk/van-and-light-truck-conversions/motorhome.asp

There is also another firm close to these which does the same, but name escapes me at the moment.. anyone remember it?


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## 92046 (May 1, 2005)

*Pay Load*

Hi to all

Often people will say " I have a pay load of XXX kg " if this figure was taken from the hand book, or manual, """READ ALL THE MANUAL"""

Last year in france, met up with a guy from Italy who worked for a MH company, who had previously worked for Fiat !!!. i learned a lot of things about my own MH, most of the things i wish i had never been told, however it did answer a few questions

1 The main selling point of a MH is cost
2 Second main point is "PAY LOAD"
3 Colour of electrical cables are not always Red-Pos. black - Neg but often used to identify circuits, !!!
4 You may have a fiat badge on the front, but the engine may be ??? there you have the Peugot, one of the later ones, dont complain a good engine, 
5 This next point is the bigest complaint the factory gets, Pay load, as he pointed out on my MH Data sheet = Empty Weight -2450 kg. Max weight 3200 kg. so this gives me 750kg yes??? *NO* Read on, further down the data sheet it says, To increase stability and driving safety, all the cabins now travel on the Fiat Ducato chassis, fitted with the Camping Car Package a "KIT" that includes=
oversize tyres, 
second leaf spring, 
and reinforced shock absorbers,

For total comfort there is the Comfort car Package,

Comfort Car Package=
Electric windows
Electric door locks
Heated electric side mirrors
Passenger seat with adjustable back and arm rest
Height adjustable driver seat with arm rest.

and you can then have the delux pack

Delux Pack Includes=
Seitz Windows
Cab seat covers
Head restraints
Black metalic fibreglass skirts
Upholstered cab bed bulkhead
Molded exterior door
High quality upholstery
Slatted bed base in the over cab bed
Upholstered headboards in the luton
Upgraded light fittings
blown air heating up to the over cab bed.

OK you then fit a gas bottle or 2, a second battery, may be a carpet

I found his list of "EXTRA's hard to believe, however, my weight on the weigh bridge, NO water, 1/4 fuel, MY fitted extra's of 20kgs, came to a total of 2900 kgs. 2900 - 2450 = 450 kg. that is 450 more than the catalog as distributed by Autotrail,

And by the way I do not have the Comfort Car Package fitted.
but DO have the Camping Car Package and the Delux package fitted.

In his own words, forget my name, I never told you, and if you try to get this information from the factory, HA HA HA, you will not get an answer, and will be told to contact the supply dealer

So when you go to order that new MH, ask for a Weigh Bridge Certificate, and when you collect it get the dealer to take you on a test run via the weigh bridge.

And as for re-plating, yes with me it can go up to 3500kg as the 2nd leaf springs are fitted, and by the way---- MY weight is only 75kgs before you ask :lol:

Have fun Colin


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

temporary said:


> Hi
> 
> Regarding minibuses
> 
> ...


Unless I'm misreading it, it says you need D1+E category licence for this, which you don't get without a specific test. Standard Cat B Car licence from '97 limits you to 3500kg (subject to conditions and some minor variations as previously stated).


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## 96414 (Oct 1, 2005)

Hi

*Category D1 + E is for larger trailers*, mini-buses (without trailer) can be any weight, all it goes on is number of seats.

Problem is that people expect these laws to make sense but they do not.


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

temporary said:


> Hi
> 
> *Category D1 + E is for larger trailers*, mini-buses (without trailer) can be any weight, all it goes on is number of seats.
> 
> Problem is that people expect these laws to make sense but they do not.


Whether they make sense or not is something entirely different.

The rules as published on this one though aren't open to interpretation.

You are correct that the D1 + E requirement refers to the minibus plus a trailer - I picked on this one since it hold the reference to 12 tonnes which you quoted.

Directly above is the categorisation of a minibus, which, as you infer, it implies "can be any weight, all it goes on is number of seats", BUT it requires a D1 licence, which you do not get as a result of passing a standard car test since '97.

There are  circumstances under which you can drive a minibus on a standard post-'97 Category B car licence. They do, however, limit you to 3500kg (with some exceptions), and are set out in

http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/drvmbus.htm


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## 90304 (May 1, 2005)

Hi

This forum is amazing - nearly 1000 views on this thread within 24 hrs!

I thought this topic would get people interested. Am I mis-understanding, or has it been suggested that my 2.8JTD LWB Fiat Ducatto currently plated at 3000kg, can be uprated to 3800kg as a paperwork exercise, without any mechanical work being done? If that were the case, surely the converters or the dealers would have done this to make the'van more saleable?

Does anyone have any knowledge regarding the original question of what are the manufacturers legal obligations in selling a 'van that cannot legally be used fro its intended purpose - as I believe that most Engilsh of continental coachbuilts, on the Ducatto for example, have this inadequate payload problem? (Notwithstanding the comments of the Yankee owners - who are obviously OK).

Nigel


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## Road_Runner_644 (May 9, 2005)

Blimey 

This one went off track a bit eh :lol: :lol: but it came back before veering off again.

Hey - point 1 - this forum is amazing, it is full of individuals who can't wait to help you. (there are a few who are up themselves - you'll spot them quickley)

I don't know about the legal obligations, but I have a strong feeling over payload, bacause of my own MH.

I apologise for my rant, my drink related stupor got the better of me, but it was a dig at the likes of Hymer etc, who spec what they know is a 4200 or 3800 chassis from Sevel, and then down plate the thing to 3500.

It probably has more to do with German (or Italian?) license classes than ours, but it's still a bloody annoying thing to be driving round in a Van that is capable of a much higher payload, and the only answer is to re plate yourself (and pay for it) to make it legal when you have a full complement of passengers and holiday stuff.

I think in the case of most modern European 3200/3500 vans this is the case Nigel

It just sounds to me like a scandal similar to the misselling of endowment mortgages, but then again I’m a Motorhome fan  

I may be wrong - someone will tell me.

Cheers

Dave

P.S. BillD – I never realised the tax was 10 quid higher either; I was just in such a state that I put TAX on the end of the post for reasons not known by me at the time


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## 90304 (May 1, 2005)

Sorry - mistake in my last post - my van, is currently plated at 3500 kg, and not 3000.

N


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

Nice to get back on topic again.

I was surprised when you said that you're only 'plated' at 3000kg. (but you've now corrected).

A 2.8JTD is of an age where it would most likely have been rated at 3400kg if on the non-Maxi chassis (15 inch wheels are the indicator), or 3500kg on the Maxi (16 inch wheels) up to 3850kg on the Maxi with the 'Camping Car' package.

Different laws in different countries lead to manufacturers rating them at different levels in order to hit a particular market. (Usually driven by cost breaks or driving restrictions) The vehicle is often unchanged, but effectively down-rated, hence the 'paper-only' exercise to put it back to design rating.

I have a 2003 review of a Joxy 6, which is built on the non-maxi LWB, and rated at 3400kg.

Uprating to 3850 is only likely to be a paperwork-only exercise if your original build was on the Maxi with 'camping car package', and it has been effectively downrated.

If you're at 3500kg already, you're either on a non-Maxi uprated to about the limit, or a Maxi (which if it has the Camping Car package is effectively downgraded). 

So, if it's on 16 inch wheels, and got Michelin Camping tyres and double leaf rear springs, it may well be upgradeable as a paper exercise. Cost to me through RDH was £410, though I believe SVTech will deal with you direct for somewhere between £200-£300.

You get a new plate, a covering note setting out the fact that it is legal as it is in design weight, and you would also need to re-register with DVLA at the higher weight (and let your insurer know!).

Be aware that exceeding 3500kg has impact on the driving licence you require (though OK if passed pre-'97), and brings you into a new set of pan-european restrictions - (speeds tolls, etc). 

If you think you qualify, and want to go for it - give one of the firms a call, they will advise (sometimes on basis of chassis number alone).

As far as the legalities are concerned, the manufacturers gathered together behind a European standard on weights (EN-1642 or some such). IMO, the weight allowances in this standard are still well below those practically required, but having such an endorsed norm is likely to give manufacturers who conform some legal protection if they were to be sued. I think it would take a test case to prove the ground (and my pockets certainly aren't that deep!).


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## 90304 (May 1, 2005)

Hi RobinHood thanks for the detailled response  

I have a Maxi chassis with the Michelin Camping Car Tyres. I will look into this in greater depth. There is obviously now more to this than I thought at first. My immediate thoughts were that designers were just loading up 'vans with all the toys to make them sell and to hell with the final weight! It is interesting that my 'van potentially now could be uprated to give me an effective payload of 860 kg - more than enough. I passed my test in 1987, so no worries there - just sounds like it could effect my insurance and the speed I can travel - what a bizarre state of affairs - nothing is straightforward is it?

If manufacturers are hiding behind the requirements of an international standard that specifying that (in my opinion) illegal products comply, what chance does the man in the street stand - all he wants to do is buy a 'van and take his family on hoilday!

Nigel


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

Good Luck.

What you're looking to do is exactly what I did with my last 'van, a Benimar 6000ST - I simply did it at point of purchase, not as an afterthought.

Used four up as a family, payload was IMO marginal - hence the paper exercise to make it legal.

Interesting to consider that it isn't a safety issue, only a legal one (Since the 'van is exactly the same in either state)

I chose to take the 'inconveniences' of being over 3500Kg (and have done the same with my new van) as I prefer not to explain to police of any nationality why I'm over the limit.

The only real pain it's caused so far is in touring in Austria, a long term favourite, where the toll system for over 3500kg is now a real pain (and cost) compared with before). If you don't like 80kph on continental motorways, however, it may irk.

My vans have been insured from new at 3850kg, and have thus had no quantifiable effect on premium. I would doubt that any increase (if any) would be significant - I have heard various people state there was no effect. (And you'll save a tenner on the road tax  )


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## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

Robinhood
As you seem knowledgeable in this area are you able to shead any light on my particular vehicle. The logbook records it as Peugeot Boxer 350 LWB. The under bonnet plate top figure which I assume is Max Laden Weight (or whateverit is called now) says 3500kgs but the convertor, Elddis, have put a plate on the side that says 3280kgs. So I am wondering if I can use up to 3500 or if I am restricted to the 3280 as badged by the convertor?
I try to keep within the 3280 but it is as others have said extremely difficult and I probably exceed it from time to time.
TIA


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

Don't proclaim to be an expert, can only pass on my experience. In this case I can't give you an absolute, only some more background.

I'm not sure why Elddis would want to downrate to that figure unless they had done something to the 'van. (I do wonder whether they also built on the 320 base, and you've got a plate from one of those in error). I can find no logic in downplating a 'van below 3500kg (one capable of more is a different matter), and I would be tempted to assume the higher figure (but can't advise you to do so).

AFAIK, the Boxer 350 is the equivalent of the Fiat Maxi chassis, and this is borne out by the 3500kg figure (the first one being the GVW or MTPLM).

If it has double leaf springs and is on tyres that will take the maximum axle loads, (the 1 and 2 figures on the plate, and probably 1850kg and 2120kg) and the 16in Michelin Camping ones can, then I'm even more confused.

Having said that, my Benimar had figures on a makers plate that were at variance with the Fiat plate, and uprating it gave a third plate that didn't match ither of the other two!

The current Rapido has two plates, one at 3500 and one at 3850, but they are adjacent and under the bonnet, and the Rapido one is the higher.

I wasn't too worried about the above as I was clear that both were rated at 3850kg, understood the history, and both had the weight recorded in the V5 (I think this is a requirement if over 3500kg). 

I'd be inclined to contact Elddis (Explorer Group) and raise a question.

What format is the convertor's plate - does it map onto the original vehicle plate in format? (i.e. does it also show the GTW and the front and rear axle weights (labelled 1 and 2).

What year is it?


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## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

Thanks for the reply Robinhood.
Of course I wouldn't hold you to anything, just glad to be able to bounce this off someone with some knowledge.
Its dark outside now and raining so it is difficult to see and get to the various plates as I have to move it from the side of my property but I have just had a look underneath. When you say 'double leaf springs' I take it that means springs with two metal leaves in one assembly rather than two separate springs, sorry to be thick but I am trying to understand what is happening here.
That being the case ours does indeed have springs with two leaves (very heavy looking ones as well). Now the wheels/ tyres are 195 70 x 15"C 8 ply with a loading on them of 900kgs single 860kgs dual!!
I do believe that your axle loading figures are the ones that are on the Peugeot plate under the bonnet but as I said I am unable to get to that to confirm in the restricted surroundings that the van is in. Unfortunately I also cannot get to the Elddis plate as it is on the side that is 6" from the house, but from memory I think it only had the MLW figure, it is situated in a completely different place, on the side of the van, from the Peugeot plate under the bonnet.
So from what you have said it seems we may have a chassis that is capable of the 3500kgs but with under spec wheels/ tyres, perhaps that being the reason for the lowering of the weight on the Elddis plate? If it is that, it seems to be 'spoiling the ship for a halpenyworth of tar' so to speak.
It is a 1998 model by the way.

Paulway

PS Since having SatNav that gives a speed readout, I had noticed that the speedo overreads by about 5mph i.e satnav says we are doing 55mph speedo reads 60mph, its just occurred to me would 16" wheels were they fitted make the speedo read right I wonder and have Elddis down speced the vehicle for some peculiar reason and thrown this all out???


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

Crikey!

I might be digging myself in here!

The springs thing was exactly what I mean.

AFAIK, however, the 350L should have come as standard with 16 inch wheels.

I have an Aug '98 MMM review of a CK which was built on the *320L* with a GVW of 3200kg. By 2000 a review was showing the camping upgrade (Michelin Camping tyres and h/d springs) giving a GVW of 3400kg.

The 320L was (logically) rated without this upgrade at 3200kg. (I had a Swift Royale built on the Fiat equivalent to the 320M which had the upgrade, and a Swift plate for 3400kg to override the Fiat one).

Its about here that you wish you hadn't asked the question (and I wish I hadn't replied :wink: )

Three things -

You may actually have the 320M chassis, in which case plating at 3280kg would be an upgrade, and it would be logical of Elddis to have replated. In this case, however, the original Peugeot plate would be 3200 (and something like 5200 GTW, 1750 and 2000 for axle weights - can't remember the exact values). Just showing the max weight on the Elddis plate would be commensurate with the approach Swift took as above (it didn't show axle weights etc.)

Or, you have the 350M with wrong wheels and tyres (unless I'm wrong about the 16 inch thing, and I don't think so). It is unlikely, as the front discs are bigger on the heavier chassis, so smaller wheels probably wouldn't fit.

Or, you have a 320M with the wrong plate.

FWIW, there has been a lot of debate in the Motorcaravanning press about Peugeot vehicles (around that time I think) shipping with the wrong weight-related equipment, tyres, plates, etc. A number of Autosleeper owners had confusing configurations which required work.

I've no desire to perturb you further - I think the first thing to do is check all the plates again. There's probably a simple solution that I'm missing, and therefore misleading you.

If its still confusing, if Elddis won't give you help, a Peugeot dealer should be able to diagnose by chassis number.


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## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

Hello Again RobinHood,
Well what can I say, the questions are answered but the mystery not solved!
You were absolutly spot on, I have just been phoned by Peugeot dealer, they were more than helpful but I have had long dealings with them with cars, and yes from the VIN the chassis is actualy a 320 LWB. So it is incorrectly noted at DVLA and has the wrong dataplate under the bonnet. They have no information as to the fitting of the rear springs but are in agreement with you that the springs fitted are uprated from standard.
So it seems that Elddis, (Explorer Group by the way were unable, or was it unwilling, to help as my van was prior to it becoming Explorer Group, so they no longer have the type of information I was requesting!!!!) have uprated the springs for whatever reason but only increased the weight capacity to 3280. Hardly seems worth it really, can only think that the six berth CK as ours is, needed that bit extra over the five berth version (I understand that the six berth is a bit of a rarity in CK form, as I understand that the six berths were normally EB's).
Of course non of the above explains the Peugeot plate. The dilema now is do I leave the plates and the logbook as they are. Being devious here as I am thinking that should I get stopped and am over the 3280 but inside the 3500 would the authorities have to use the higher weights??? Hmmmm.


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

Glad you got a bit closer to understanding the mystery (it sure confused me!).

The review in MMM (Aug '98) was a 5 berth.

I have a sneaking feeling that the Peugeot was sometimes slightly uprated around this time (I think Fiat started the mass move to upgrading the 3200kg base to 3400kg shortly after this). The limiting factor was often the tyres fitted.

80kg doesn't seem much, but if you're running between 3200 and 3280, it just might make all the difference if stopped  

Whilst I don't want to worry you further, if the vehicle was bought second hand, the VIN number in the logbook does marry up with the plate doesn't it?

As already said, I've read of a number of occurrences of people thinking they've bought a 320M based vehicle from new only to find it was actually a 270M, so there have obviously been some peculiar goings on but I've never heard of a mis-plating like yours.

I assume the tyres aren't Michelin Camping, but something like Pirelli L6?

I wouldn't choose to knowingly exceed the rated weight (but if I subsequently got caught out, might like to point to the higher weight plate).

My guess (personal opinion only)is that given later upgrading practice you would not be exceeding the 'design specifications' if you stayed under 3400kg, as long as the rated weight of the ttyres was not exceeded by the a given axle loading. It's safer to take the safe load for the tyre off the load index code. This chassis isn't routinely upgraded beyond that.


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## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

First let me say sorry to *nigelt* I didn't mean to highjack your thread, but I hope to some extent it was related, thanks for posting because it has certainly cleared up some of my concerns with our six berth with smallish payload, albeit we usually only use it for us two or maximum of four.!

RobinHood thanks for your input, it has helped us towards understanding where our M/Home is at, if not totally solving the mystery, but I do not think that that will ever happen this long after construction, so its probably the closest we will get. 
The tyres are Goodyear Cargo G26, but are not the originals, having been changed when we bought the van six years back for peace of mind. Could I pick your brain again, what do you mean by 'load index code' is this something common to all makes of tyre or just to Michelins that you were talking about.
At least we know that we should try to keep within the lower rating which is what we try to do anyway, and should we fall the 'wrong' side so to speak we will try to argue the higher value and see where that gets us!!
I did have to smile when you mentioned the second hand and Vin Number thing, as I had posted on another thread about our M/Home registration number being used on a 'ringer' and it only came to light when we did not receive the new style logbook for the van and when we queried why, was told it was because I had sold it six months earlier!! This has been investigated by DVLA and ours is the correct vehicle with the correct numbering and the other, unfortunately for the new owner, was apparently a stolen vehicle that had been paid out on insurance and given our reg number. Hopefully that is correct, but one does start to wonder now!!


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

You'll have a sidewall marking something like 195/70 R 15 C then (hopefully) a code something like 100/98R. (number and letter may vary, most likely for yours are 100/98R or 104/102R )

The number from this is the load index (maximum weight on the tyre, where there are tow numbers this is for single or double wheel use, in that order I think) and the letter is the speed index (maximum speed rating).

You can check them at winntyres.co.uk/load.htm


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## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

Well thanks once more RH
The tyres were as you suggested104/102R and the site you listed tells me that is good for 900kgs so presumably that means across the pair on that axle equivelent to 1800 axle weight is that correct?


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## RobinHood (May 19, 2005)

The figures are very close to the original ones you posted for the tyres. Some of the values quoted on the sidewall are for different markets, potentially under different regulations. I've always been told to use the load index.

Yes, a rating of 900kg per tyre would mean max axle loading of 1800kg (subject to even side to side loading). And unlike some of the figures on the vehicle plate (which might not necessarily reflect the design maximum under all conditions), I wouldn't even consider taking a chance on overloading on safety grounds, let alone legality.


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