# Is it a legal requirement to indicate when overtaking?



## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

A couple of pals have stated to me they think it is a LEGAL requirement to ALWAYS signal when overtaking in France, even if there is no other vehicle behind you whether it be on a motorway, dual carriageway or two lane road.

Can any of our French experts on here please confirm/deny this for me?? 

The reason I ask is because, rather than just signal regardless, I ALWAYS check to see if there is anyone behind who would benefit from me signalling, if not then i don't bother as its a totally pointless exercise as NO-ONE will even see it, least of all the driver of the car I am overtaking and if he does see it what is he going to do differently?? Its exactly the same as those in the UK who indicate to pull back in after overtaking. Where else are they going to go ?????? Do they really feel it necessary to advise me that having overtaken me they are going to return to the correct side of the road rather than stay on the incorrect side and have a head on with the approaching truck???

The only thing that tells me is that the driver is merely signalling out of habit rather than any form of actual necessity.

I am NOT looking for any comments about "Its the correct thing to do" or "Thats what I was always taught to do" or "that's what everyone else does" etc etc I am ONLY seeking clarification if it is a LEGAL requirement in France.

Andy


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

Do you stop at a Stop sign if you can see no one on the other road?

Dick


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

It cant be. The indicators on French cars are disconnected at the factory. Well they must be as nobody ever uses them.


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

For the sake of flicking one finger I always indicate when changing lanes. It doesn't take much effort you know.
Besides these old eyes could easily miss something. Plus its a good habit to get into.

I believe it is now a legal requirement in France and some other European countries.


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Andy, although I live here I must admit to not being absolutely certain as to the LAW on the subject but there are many "urban myths" that do the rounds of the expat forums, one of which refers to the subject and I've seen many replies dis-counting the suggestion.



Glandwr said:


> Do you stop at a Stop sign if you can see no one on the other road?
> Dick


Dick, that's one thing I can be certain of, the stop sign is an obligatory one, whether or not any other vehicles are in the vicinity, if a gendarme witnesses you failing to stop you will be subject to an on the spot fine of €90 and you can argue your case but will not be allowed to continue your journey until you've paid up. FACT.
Another fact, it is not uncommon for the law enforcers to hide whilst observing the area.

.


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## caulkhead (Jul 25, 2007)

If we were talking about the UK then I would reference the Highway Code, where the use of the words MUST/MUST NOT indicate whether something is a LEGAL requirement rather than just an ADVISORY.

As far as France is concerned, despite driving there on many occasions, I have no idea where one would look to get a definative answer on any aspect of driving!

Sorry I can't be of help!

Andy


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

This website is recommended as a source of correct information:

https://www.justlanded.com/english/France/Articles/Travel-Leisure/Rules-of-the-road

and there it says :

_You must indicate left before and while overtaking; on single carriageway roads you must indicate right when moving back into your lane, but this isn't necessary on dual-carriageways or motorways._


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Have to agree with Barry, especially approaching and on roundabouts.

Terry


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## Revise (May 13, 2012)

Whilst in the UK I do signal to overtake, but I never signal when returning into the left lane unless I think it would be beneficial to do so for other drivers.
But it may or may not be a legal requirement to indicate whilst returning to the lane. But if you do indicate and its not a legal requirement, you won't be breaking any laws. 
But a signal may help others that you may have not seen. Best be safe than sorry. 

But as an ex HGV 1 driver I still flash in other long vehicles even though I am in my motorhome and it is not in the highway code. It is beneficial to the person overtaking you.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Answering Andy's point about signalling to pull back in after overtaking, I do it on M/ways and dual carriageways, for two reasons:-

Because, in a MH or truck, one is overtaking at slow relative speeds I try to pull in asap and in case I have misjudged my clearance, especially in spray, I want to give the vehicle inside the chance to warn me or brake.

Secondly it confirms to any following vehicle that I am not staying out in that lane to overtake another vehicle, which maybe he caannot see.

I also do it on single carriageway if there is an oncoming vehicle, to reassure them that I will have cleared their side of the road well before we are in a conflict position.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Well Andy you did ask.:grin2::grin2:

Thank you spykal.


cabby


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Mrplodd said:


> A couple of pals have stated to me they think it is a LEGAL requirement to ALWAYS signal when overtaking in France, even if there is no other vehicle behind you whether it be on a motorway, dual carriageway or two lane road.
> 
> Can any of our French experts on here please confirm/deny this for me??
> 
> ...


I'm with you 100% on that, I was taught to Mirror, Signal, manoeuvre, so I mirror first if no one there to see my signal I don't, but I have at least checked, many seem to just signal and manoeuvre and pray to Allah that no one is close to them, particularly on motorways near slip roads on and off.

As for France, well I must have run over many frogs, and hedgepigs etc.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

May I suggest one of the MHF residents of France stops a policeman and asks - even if you have to rummage in the hedge by the halt sign to find one.:laugh::laugh:


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

I cannot find any legal requirement mentioned in the various official journals that govern the laws appertaining to overtaking, but frankly searching those is not the easiest thing to do as they tend to describe such an event in terms that do not mean a lot we for instance might say "overtaking", but the French official journals may describe that as "changing lanes" or "passing another moving vehicle" or travelling at a speed faster than other vehicles" nd of course will probably have different sections relating to dual carriageways, motorways and autoroutes....

I suspect urban myths may well exist, but for the sake of safety it is probably safest to always signal IF DOING SO WILL INDICATE INTENTIONS TO OTHER ROAD USERS - i.e. vehicles or pedestrians, but not the average chicken, squirrel or badger wishing to cross the road.

As Barry has correctly suggested though, if it was a LEGAL requirement then the Gendarme could have a field day and could probably clear the European debt within 24 hours if they enforced it and charged every offender the normal 90€ they seem to like...... Signalling is a rare commodity on ANY French roads - for overtaking, turning right and perhaps even worse turning left.....

But then they always prefer to overtake when there is a solid white line to stop others getting inn their way as they do it......

Mt s-i-l was hit just before Christmas when a young driver did precisely that - she came from behind a line of four cars following a tractor and ignored the left turn indicators he was using and hit him fair and square before driving off - pursued by two other drivers, but she refused to accept responsibility and insisted that each insurer paid their own repair costs....

So signals may well not be compulsory, but failure to use and abide by them must be costing insurers a fortune....

Dave


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

I must be driving in a different France to most other people.

I find. in the main, that French drivers are more courteous, forgiving and laid back than their counterparts in the UK.
Of the 50-odd 000 miles on the motorhome's clock at least 40000 miles were clocked up in Europe.
To generalise, Germans, good drivers but can be impatient and arrogant. French, they drive with a perpetual Gaelic shrug, except their women who drive like harridans. 
Spanish, good, fast but suicidal. Portugese, two types, Mama and Papa going home after the market and several bottles of vino, their car knows the way but is in no hurry to get home. And the young ones who think every road is a race track.

Could be that my perspective derives from living in the busy south-east of the UK and driving in rural Europe. Driving in any city in the world is going to be an 'interesting' experience for an out-of-towner.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

I have a very large degree of sympathy with Spacerunner's comments about the style of driving across Europe, most French drivers give much greater clearance at "Give Way" junctions and wait considerably longer than their UK counterparts. BUT it does depend on what part of France you are in - driving in Paris is VERY similar to that found in London or any other big city. Rural standards differ considerably and in many cases French drivers, irrespective of gender or age are more tolerant than those commonly experienced in the UK.

BUT, tailgating and overtaking on solid white lines IS a big problem and one that is acknowledged by many authorities as a problem that needs to be addressed, but whether it will ever change is debatable. The "Priorite a droit" rule is not understood by visitors or French residents alike - or is equally ignored as one cannot discern the reason for "overlooking" it.

Of course, my driving is not that of a professional (now), but I have driven more than 50,000 km in France and also have driven in many European and some Middle Eastern countries as well as Turkey, the US and Bermuda so I do feel justified in my perceptions, others of course may disagree based on their experiences, which just goes to show that there is a range of standards whether you happen to be....

Dave


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## hblewett (Jan 28, 2008)

I have read the requirements for motoring in most Europen countries, and I'm sure that in some of them it is a requirement (whether legal of 'highway code/recommended' I don't know to signal very time you change lanes on a dual c'way. O/H is very keen on signalling when she is driving although I have advanced the argument that you should know if there is anyone who will see your signal or not. 

Nevertheless, I have come to the conclusion, especially when abroad (on the wrong side of the road), that the 'signal in case' policy makes sense. I'm glad I did a couple of weeks or so ago in some foreign land when I signalled a left turn, despite seeing no-one to benefit, and a hooter went off warning me from a young chap on a scooter coming up the inside at traffic lights. He must have arrived at the very moment after I'd looked and as I signalled, had I not signalled I would very likely have knocked him off. there was no way I would have seen him till he took a line to come up the inside, so I'll continue with he 'signal anyway' policy.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I suppose despite what has been written, if you're making a turn mirror, signal, mirror again then manoeuvre is still the best policy, and sooner rather than later with the signal, us bikers call it the life saver, as there is always some arse who has an aversion to flashing orange lights and sees it as a challenge.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I do not agree that one can always know whether there is anyone behind.

When driving a truck, or a wide MH, equipped only with wing mirrors, it is quite possible to lose sight of a small car or motorbike whch is tucked close behind on the centreline of one's vehicle. 

Why else would many trucks carry the sign "If you cannot see my mirrors I cannot see you" ?

Geoff


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> I do not agree that one can always know whether there is anyone behind.
> 
> When driving a truck, or a wide MH, equipped only with wing mirrors, it is quite possible to lose sight of a small car or motorbike whch is tucked close behind on the centreline of one's vehicle.
> 
> ...


Have to disagree Geoff, vehicles don't suddenly arrive in the blind spot, I'm checking my mirrors all the time, not just when I need to turn etc, constant rear observation was drummed into me, and used to be part of the driving test, not about now, but it should be, as a professional driver truckers should be doing the same, and many have a rearward facing camera these days so no excuses.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

nicholsong said:


> I do not agree that one can always know whether there is anyone behind.
> 
> When driving a truck, or a wide MH, equipped only with wing mirrors, it is quite possible to lose sight of a small car or motorbike whch is tucked close behind on the centreline of one's vehicle.
> 
> ...


nd sadly that is the reason why so many cyclists are killed in the UK every month - London being the biggest problem.

There are now considerations to ban all lorries during the day- as is found in other capital cities....

Not looking around constantly may well result in another road user not being seen, and if it is bad in the UK when you are "on the right side" how much worse is your vision when "driving on the wrong side" when you are not used to where the potential blind spots are......?

Hence IMO, signals are very desirable at every possible change of direction......

Dave


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi

The English translation from the _Code de la Route_ of the offence of not indicating seems to come under Minor Offences - 2nd Class

*Turning suddenly without prior warning €35 3 3 years *(the numbers are Fine, Penalty Points, Licence Suspension )

It is described on another web page (ableard.org) as ...

Another 'creative' infraction worthy of fining and deduction of points is not using the direction indicator when turning or overtaking, even on an almost empty dual carriageway, and turning on or off a roundabout. Because of this, the French will neurotically leave their indicator going when driving on the outer lanes of a motorway to show that they are still OVERTAKING, and then indicate when they are going back to the inside lane.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

"when turning onto a roundabout" - that's interesting, because as soon as one is on the roundabout and before the signal aoto-cancels the car waiting at the first, maybe close, exit could interpret that as a signal one is leaving at that exit.

Kev

I think someone can suddenly arrive in a blind spot - imagine a motorbike joining at speed from a slip road while one is looking ahead or at the off-side mirror. He could transit the view of the nearside mirror in a fraction of a second. he cannot overtake yet, because of traffic in lane 2, so he tucks in waiting for his chance. The traffic in lane 2 has passed ahead so I am going to pull out - I would signal regardless of whether I thought there was nobody behind..

I think it is good to consider all scenarios. I assume police teaching is that way isn't it Andy?

Geoff

Geoff


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## Carl_n_Flo (May 10, 2005)

Geoff - on the point about the motorcyclist above.......

As a motorcyclist myself, if I HAD to sit behind a vehicle for any length of time waiting to overtake, I would position my machine in such a way that I could see the face of the driver of the car in front in his offside door mirror. Not the central rearview mirror as that would leave me nowhere to go should car driver suddenly stop. If I can see the drivers face in the mirror, then HE should be able to see me.........if he can be bothered to look. I wouldn't be so close as to be intimidating, and I would expect the vehicle in front of me to indicate if the driver wanted to change lanes in front of me - if only as a courtesy to prevent me running into the back of him as I overtake with a far greater rate of acceleration.

By the way - I was always taught that the 'manoeuvre' part of 'mirror signal manoeuvre' also related to moving your foot from the accelerator to the brake. Many a time I have seen a driver suddenly anchor up and THEN indicate to turn............. right pisses me off does that!!!


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Newsflash!

Rare footage has emerged of Carl demonstrating his safe overtaking method on his Honda PCX. Very impressive Carl.


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## Revise (May 13, 2012)

IDIOTS>>>>

People like that are idiots who cause accidents. But it is not only motorcyclist's, plenty of car drivers are equally as stupid in some of the things they do.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I have personally been stopped and fined on the spot for not indicating when overtaking a 'Sans Permit' slow vehicle in France.
Smug plod after he stopped me asked if I knew what I had done wrong. I said no. 
It was then explained to me that it was law that when changing lanes you MUST indicate. And I didn't.
So luckily the fine was small at €45 as I remember and I paid by cheque to the Tressor Public.

My new car has the facility when you lightly press the indicator stalk it flashes the indicators that side three times.

Ray.


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## cavs (Mar 15, 2009)

Hi Andy Plodd,

Trained as I was - signal if someone will benefit from the signal. The problem with always signalling as an automatic action is that it gradually becomes unnecessary to look first. How many people do you see signalling as a part of the manoeuvre? Turn the wheel and catch the indicator switch as you pass it.

Roadcraft explains it.

Cheers
Stephen


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Geoff

The teaching in respect of indicating for overtaking was always "If there is someone BEHIND who might benefit then signal, if not, don't" The theory being that it's safer to have two hands on the wheel rather than one and NO we were always taught that your hand comes OFF the wheel to operate any of the ancillaries!!! We were tought never to indicate we were returning to the "correct" side of a two or three lane road (and therefore keep both hands on the wheel) but to always signal when changing lanes on a motorway or dual carriageway ESPECIALLY after passing another vehicle and pulling back in.

As far as junctions are concerned ALLWAYS indicate because another motorist might approach the junction from the side road and benefit from your signal.

As far as not knowing a vehicle is behind/alongside or whatever that was ALLWAYS a fine on driving courses (paying for tea at the next stop for the whole car full of 4) 

One of the things banged into us from day one of the standard driving course was "You must check your mirrors (all of them) at LEAST once every 10 - 12 SECONDS!!!! " Yes really, it's very difficult to start with but you soon get into the habit when someone is bleating into your left lug hole all the time!!! It's now so ingrained into me that I just do it all the time, Mrs Plodd reckons I look like one of those toy nodding dogs you used to see on the back parcel shelf, only I do it from side to side rather than up or down. I can honestly say that I always know exactly what's behind me at all times. Including bikes that go against the norm and sit actually behind rather than on the offside rear quarter trying to bully me into pulling over. If they wish to overtake that's fine with me, but I am NOT going to get out of their way (Yes I also rode patrol bikes so I am speaking from a position of someone who has had (an awful lot) more training than most)

What I really like is the "I've TURNED right signal" almost as much as the " manoeuvre signal mirror" brigade that seem to inhabit the roads these days. 

Andy

Stephen

Spot on mate !!!!!


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Thanks for that little snippet Ray.

It would APPEAR to confirm what my pals have said, it would be nice to be able to get a definitive answer as it's not unknown for French Plodd to "invent" offences is it??

Andy


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## cavs (Mar 15, 2009)

Did you have to buy cream cakes for more serious transgressions, such as double white lines or speed limits?

S


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Having a set of double white lines was treated as a VERY serious transgression and resulted in an "Interview WITHOUT coffee" in front of the chief instructor. (And rightly so in my view) 

speed limit fines were variable, on standard (or initial courses) we were expected to arrive at a speed limit commencement point AT the limit by using acceleration sense alone (made you look a long way ahead all,the time) on advanced courses the speeds were much higher so judicious use of the brake pedal was permitted. The problem arose when you forgot what the actual limit you were in was!!! (Is it a 30 or 40 limit I wonder) If asked and you got it wrong it was cream cakes or similar. It's amazing how putting your hand in your pocket hightens your road awareness !!!! 

Oh happy days from Number Six Region Police Driving School, Devizes Wiltshire, sadly it's now all gone and all driver training is done in force. 

Andy


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## cavs (Mar 15, 2009)

Well said, Andy. When I mentioned double white lines I was thinking of clipping the start of them when returning to the nearside. I agree that a full-blooded crossing would warrant much more serious sanction, had the instructor allowed the manoeuvre in the first place.

Thirty years after that course, I still try to hit the limit marker at the limit without touching the brakes, even in the wagon.

I'm going to bed now before we get on to war stories!!


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Or the Toxteth riots eh ?? I'm off to bed as well, been revamping the decking in the garden, I am starting to realise that at 61 I cannot do quite as much as I did at 31. Anyone seen my Radox ??

Andy


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Surely at 62 you should be able to do twice as much as at 31..... or is it the same amount for half the time....

please do not cue the egg-timer joke again.....

Dave


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Is that like the two fifty year old mathematicians who both admit to having affairs with 25 year olds?

The wife reckons she has the much better deal because 25 goes into fifty far more than fifty goes into 25 ???


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> Kev
> 
> I think someone can suddenly arrive in a blind spot - imagine a motorbike joining at speed from a slip road while one is looking ahead or at the off-side mirror. He could transit the view of the nearside mirror in a fraction of a second. he cannot overtake yet, because of traffic in lane 2, so he tucks in waiting for his chance. The traffic in lane 2 has passed ahead so I am going to pull out - I would signal regardless of whether I thought there was nobody behind..
> 
> ...


I'll concede that point Geoff, but a rear facing camera would solve that problem too.

All round continuous observation is key to good safe driving, but many just don't do it.


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## Chas17 (May 1, 2005)

Mrplodd said:


> Thanks for that little snippet Ray.
> 
> It would APPEAR to confirm what my pals have said, it would be nice to be able to get a definitive answer as it's not unknown for French Plodd to "invent" offences is it??
> 
> Andy


Here's a photo of the relevant Code de la Route page. Translation is not too difficult.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Chas17 said:


> Here's a photo of the relevant Code de la Route page. Translation is not too difficult.


Thanks for that.

I assume Code de la Route is equivalent to the Highway Code.

Does tha phrase " Il doit utiler" imply that it is the law or is it only advisory, like some parts of the Highway Code where they advise but do not use 'must' as when it is a legal requirement.

Geoff


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## Chas17 (May 1, 2005)

The picture and titles are from the code de la route for learner drivers and are a simplification of the actual article (R. 412.10 I think). It is an offence (contravention) of change of direction without previous warning to other road users and, as has previously been mentioned, is a second class offence punishable by a loss of three points and a fine of €35. 

You probably know that in France you start with 12 points and lose them on committing an offence.


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