# 7.5 tonne licence



## 88808

What is the maximum weight any rigid vehicle can be with only two axles?

18 Ton, above that it must have a third axle

What is the largest vehicle that can be driven on a category C licence?

The holder can drive any rigid vehicle with no restriction on weight (provided it is not carrying passengers under PCV regs)

What is the largest vehicle that can be driven on a category D licence?

The holder can drive any rigid vehicle with no restriction on weight (provided it is designed to carry passengers under PCV regs) The holder may also drive a purpose built bendi-bus articulated vehicle as it is considered to be one unit.

The maximum design weight of a bus must be stated on the vehicle; The ULW must be written on the side of the vehicle on the near side in front of the back wheel arch. The carrying capacity must be stated on the vehicle, to include the seating capacity and standing capacity. On double decker vehicles the seating capacity is stated as upper and lower. Standing is not permitted in the upper deck as this would affect the stability of the vehicle. The seating capacity of a bus is governed by weight and not volume, 15 people equals 1 ton. The luggage space is calculated and factored in with the seating capacity, added to the ULW to determine the MAM. Category D licence holders are permitted to drive any size of bus which is approved by the UK government for use on our roads.

If a PCV driver is caught with too many people on their vehicle they will be prosecuted in the same way as a HGV driver would be prosecuted for overloading their vehicle, or a car driver would be prosecuted for over loading their car.

A category D1 licence allows the holder to drive a vehicle with upto 16 passengers. As stated before any rigid vehicle can be upto 18 ton on 2 axles, if it is over 18 ton it must have 3 axles.

A category C1 licence allows the holder to drive a vehicle not designed to carry passengers under PCV regs upto 7.5 ton

As stated category D vehicles are not restricted by MAM, however 

They are restricted by seating capacity; thus a vehicle with seating for 16 passengers allows a payload of just over 1 ton [15 people = 1 ton], if you add luggage you might get away with a payload of 2 tons.

Now considering the fact that pre 1997 licences permitted drivers to drive;

A car upto 3.5 ton

A vehicle [goods vehicle] upto 7.5 ton

A bus upto 16 seats [which actually equates to about 7 ton]

It would take a very broad interpretation of the legislation to say that a bus which is designed to carry people rather than "goods" should need to weigh more than 7 ton, the company I drive for has a 17 seater transit which has a MAM of 6.9 ton.

If a minibus was 18 ton it would have to be filled with 11 tons of something other than people. And I would argue that the extra weight would have to be cargo of some description which would make it a "goods vehicle".

If you have a vehicle with 7 tons of people and 11 tons of cargo, I would say that was a dual purpose vehicle under the road traffic act, rather than a bus?


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## 88724

Hi All

Or with the law as it stands at the moment a Motorhome of any weight at all, whethor a pre or post 97 Licence. The police tend to avoid mtorhomes other than cursory checks. And as a Judge said on appeal recently the law as turned a blind eye to the size irregularoties for years.

George


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## 88808

I am still waiting on your legal definition of a motor car as per statutory instruments.


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon


As far as cars go I am not interested (not being rude honest, I really am not interested in car definitions), what I have alluded to several times are motor caravans.

Min of Transport/VOSA definition basically dont laugh they look and see if any reasonable person would think it was, loosely based on C&U, the following is from a fax From VOSA Vehicle Inspectorate division.

"motor caravan" means a motor vehicle (not being a living van) which is constructed or adapted to carry passengers and their effecta and which contains as permenantly installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accomodation for its users; motor caravans are not classed as goods vehicles for MOT test purposes and therefore in Class IV or V depending on their seating capacity, but regardless of their size and weight

"living van" means a vehicle, whethor mechanically propelled or not, which is used as a livinjg accomodation by one or more persons, and which is also used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle; Living vans are classed as goods vehicles and depending on their weight are either class IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or are subject to HGV Plating and testing.

I will had this to the weights thread it throws what VOSA said earlier into doubt especially re the people living in and "trading from" (without goods)

George


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## 88808

Why not answer the question?

You are legally permitted to drive a Car with a B licence, what is the legal definition of a Car? That definition will tell you what you CAN legally drive on a B licence.

What can you legally drive on a car licence?

ie Define a car.


You are reading into the legislation what you want to read.

There is no driving licence category for motorhomes or motor caravans.

The basic legal prescedent of the pre 1997 driving licence is that the holder is issued with B D1 C1

B is a vehicle upto 3.5t
D1 and C1 are vehicles upto 7.5t (based on cargo carried or seating capacity.)

You have jumped on the fact that it DOESNT say you CANT drive a motorhome over 7.5t as it doesnt actually have the words motorhome or motorcaravan in the legislation.

You insist that a motorhome is not a "goods vehicle" as it does not carry goods for hire and reward.

If you are limited to a vehicle upto 7.5t on the basis of the D1 and C1 licence what makes you presume you can drive a motorhome regardless of weight.

Don't quote construction and use, they don't issue driving licences.


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## 88724

Hi Jon

You are reading what DVLA say, unfortunately (fortunately?) they cannot quote the law which backs this up Re motorhomes not cars.

If you can show, where a motorhome is restricted by weight.

Why can I not quote construction and use? DVLA specifically direct you to Marsham and Marsham disagree with DVLA.

Marsham say that like minibuses a motorhome is not restricted by weight, DVLA agree that a minbus could legally be up to 16 Tonnes single axle and be driven on the same licence that restricts you to 7.5 tonnes or the one restricting you to 3.5 tonnes, they just dont accept that motorhomes are, but the legislation does not back them up.

When the only case went to court it was abandoned after 3 adjournments by the CPS, they say through lack of evidence, but that is nonsence all the evidence is still on file, Driver statement, camera evidence and plod on the ground. 

Ring them, I did and ask under what law the case was being tried, if you look it up it refers to goods vehicles. get the definitions of a goods vehicles from C&U (this dept is refered to in the legislation as the people responsible for defining vehicles) Do that and you will see that they could not proceed as there was no law to prosecute the driver under.

Over to you

George


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## 88808

Yes but if you read the OP, as you are aware the DVLA cannot state law.

The legal precedent of the pre 1997 licence is a vehicle upto 7.5t

If you do the maths there is no need for a 16 seat vehicle to weigh more than 7.5t, 

Why do you thinkg you are limited to 16 seats on a D1 licence?

Why not 19 or 23 or 25?? 

16 is the magic number, that is the number of people you can carry along with reasonable personal luggage in a vehicle within 7.5t

The current DVLA staff "don't know" or have forgotten the relationship between seating, weight and vehicle size.

As I said, Why would you need a 16 seat passenger vehicle not used to carry "goods" which weighs more than 7.5t??

The D1 licence does not state MAM as it states seating capacity. Bus licence categories are based on seating as that is how a driver interprets the loading of the vehicle. 

A motorhome is not restricted by weight, you can have a motorhome as big as you want. It does not mean you can drive it on a licence which relates to a "car"

The definition of which you still do not want to look at.


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon

I posted that the DVLA statements are not law ages back when people were quoting the DVLA info. That is why I spent about 4 months exchanging Phone calls and faxes with the DVLA's Legal Dept. They quoted the 99 size part, I sent back the reference to the earlier legislation, they said it was superceded by 99 I countered with 99 does not supercede in that area and were it does supercede, it is stated clearly at the beginning.

DVLA are basing their stance on legislation which refers clearly to Goods vehicles, they originally claimed C&U agreed that a motohome was a goods vehicle, after I presented the fact that Mearsham actually disagreed the DVLA then came out with, we are not here to give legal advice, although they had tried and failed over a 4 month period to back their claims.

Pls Jonathon stop quoting DVLA dross and read the legioslation.

George


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## 88808

I have read the legislation.

Now tell me what the legal definition of a car is!


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## 88832

Excuse me for jumping in. the way I see it is this.
If you aquire a 7.5 tonne GVW goods vehicle,and then proceed and convert it to a "MOTORCARVAN" ,that vehicle is no longer a 7.5 goods vehicle it is a "MOTORCARAVAN". It does not carry or is able to carry goods any more.
Same applies if you do the same with a bus or coach,once converted it is a "MOTORCARAVAN". Unable to carry fare paying passengers any more.

If it is a "MOTORCARAVAN" it is a class 4 MOT
See-:VOSA, MOT Test: Fees and Appeals. 

All of our vehicles started off as commercial bases they just ended up as "MOTORCARAVANS" which takes the "commercial" out of the equation.
So the bottom line is, if it is a "MOTORCARAVAN" you can drive it on a car licence :wink: 

One proviso is you must not exceed the gross weight of the vehicle regardless :lol: And it must be registered as a "MOTORCARAVAN" :roll: 
I await being shot down on this  


Crackpot.


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## 88808

Where does it say you can drive any size of vehicle on a car licence?

What is the legal definition of a car?

N.B. C1 is not a car.

If you de plate a 10 ton lorry to 7.5t you can drive it on a C1 licence,

But what about a vehicle which weighs 9 ton EMPTY, you can't derate that to less than 7.5t

Take a walk around your local bus station, have a look at the weight on the side of these vehicles. ULW 10500 KG is typical for a double decker bus or a coach. thats 10.5 ton Unladen!

Are we suggesting that if you convert that into a motorhome you can drive a 10.5 ton vehicle on a "car" licence?


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## 88832

I think you are missing the point! A "MOTORCARAVAN" is not a "GOODS"vehicle or a PSV,HGV,LGV or what ever they are calling them these days. You can drive a double decker bus if it has been converted to a "MOTORCARAVAN" on a car licence. Stop thinking about the category the vehicle "WAS" think what category the vehicle "IS" if it has been converted to "MOTORCARAVAN" that is what it "IS".
I will give you a "FACT" If you went and bought a brand new HGV/LGV tractor unit and run it on trade plates,without the fifth wheel coupling fitted, you could drive this on a car licence. Why, because it is not registered as a goods vehicle and there is no feasible way you could carry goods on or in it :lol: 
I know it is confusing, but you have to relate to what the vehicle "IS"not what it "WAS"

HTH

Crackpot


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## 88724

Hi Crackpot

Absolutely spot on.

Jonathon according to your version a minibus over 7.5 tonnes cannot be driven, but the law disagree's and the local traffic police dept have just confirmed weight not an issue minibus any weight can be driven on car licence. ring you local nick the police have a traffic law chappy on 24/7 to answer patrols queries.

George


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## 88808

I agree that a motor home or caravan is not a HGV LGV or PCV I never said it was!

Simply this;

A car licence category B has a weight restriction of 3.5t and always has done. There are a list of exceptions to this stated in legislation, motorhomes are not covered by those exceptions.


Re D1 that is the DVLA's interpretation of the law, which you have already stated cannot be relied upon, the police go by what the DVLA say.


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## 88808

> I will give you a "FACT" If you went and bought a brand new HGV/LGV tractor unit and run it on trade plates,without the fifth wheel coupling fitted, you could drive this on a car licence. Why, because it is not registered as a goods vehicle and there is no feasible way you could carry goods on or in it.


I think you will find that a chassis cab or tractor unit has a MAM of less than 7.5t so can be driven on a C1 licence.

It may be over 3.5t so a B category licence holder may not be able to drive it.

A car licence is category B !!!!!!



> weight not an issue minibus any weight can be driven on car licence


Not on a B licence, which is the legal definition of a car licence. you are limited to 4.25t


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon

a Motorhome is now a car ? BTW follow this through and you will see why I am totally not interested in the car size issue

so no motorhome can be over 3.5 tonnes?

Or is it a C when you feel like it and limited to 7.5 Tonnes ?

But then what about the over 7.5 Tonne American motorhomes, what licence do you need to drive them ?

An HGV you may say but then if its HGV as yourself and the DVLA mistakenly believe it is (but the law disagree's)

The following are totally at odds with it being HGV

1. needs a tachograph because its now HGV (according to DVLA) and I have checked this it is not on the exempted from tacho's list.

2. it should not be driven in 3rd lane of motorway, yet they can be, ask your local cop shop, the only court case they gave up

3. it would need fitting with a speed limiter to 56 MPH max

4. it would Need HGV plating (MOT)

there is more, but have a chew on that for now.

The DVLA cannot explain the above away, can you? and please quote the Legislation that says it wrong.

BTW as I say VOSA, THe Ministry of Transport, construction and Use and te legislation all agree on the above. DVLA are the only ones who think differently, but strangely cannot produce any law to back there case. CPS eventually gave up on the only case that ever nearly got heard in court.

George


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## 88808

A car licence allows the driver to drive a vehicle upto 3.5t end of story.


I don't need to prove that a large motorhome is an HGV LGV PCV or any other vehicle.

If it wieghts more than 3.5t its not a car, therefor cannot be driven on a car licence. It is not covered by the exceptions listed in the legislation.

As for tachographs, I can drive a HGV or PCV (less than 10 seats) for social purposes without a tachograph. 

A private HGV does not require a tachograph under the regs.

Speed limiters relate to the age of the vehicle, or the date of it's first use. It would be upto VOSA to decide if a speed limiter is required. 

The MOT class has no bearing on the driving licence category.


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## 88832

red_dragon_bus said:


> A car licence category B has a weight restriction of 3.5t and always has done. There are a list of exceptions to this stated in legislation, motorhomes are not covered by those exceptions.


If you can find anything regarding Motorcaravans on your licence or on the DVLA site your a good un! :lol: Look at the VOSA site, MOTORCARAVANS are classed as class 4 MOT. You are still not looking at this situation as "MOTORCARAVAN", ignore all other definitions. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this, I'm off, I've a bus to catch. :lol: :lol:

Crackpot.

Ps, check the wording= Motorcaravan, nothing else will do. :wink:


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## 88724

Hi Jon

re Speed limiters VOSA have already decided a Motorhome is NOT an HGV if it were it would require a speed limiter.


end of story ? Obviously not a car licence as you put it is not the end, I have only ever passed the car test, but my licence entitles me to drive even by your and the DVLA's admission 7.5 tonnes. but with the minbus it can be any weight at all (allowing for axle legal max's) 

Private HGV is defined as an HGV for private purposes but a motorhome does not fit the definition of HGV according to the Goverment dept that the Legislation says decides ! ergo a Motorhome cannot be an HGV private or otherwise.

Not as easy or cut and dried as you think, if DVLA cannot show the legislation, they keep repeating the same things which the law does nt agree with.

George


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## 88808

If you passed you car test after 1997 you will not automatically be granted a C1 and D1 licence.

If you were lucky enough to sit your test before 1997 well done, they've got wise to that one :lol: :lol: 



Back to the OP, take a look at the EU integration of drivers licence proposals, they state that C1 and D1 are comparable vehicles and are proposing issuing C1 and D1 together when sitting either test.

As I said the D1 licence was meant to be upto 7.5t, DVLA seem to have lost the plot 8)


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## 88883

Hi guys

You've all left me very confused  

What size USRV can I legally drive on a pre 1997 car licence ?

Chris


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## 88808

DVLA say 7.5t


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## 88883

Hi Guys

Thanks for replies
both here and pm

Chris


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## 88724

Hi 

DVLA do say 7.5 Tonnes, but they are ignoring the law as it is written, They are contradicting Construction and Use who say Motorhomes are not weight restricted, the very people they (DVLA) tell you to consult.

Note at the bottom of there webpage it says its only there opinion

The Local police traffic legal dept, also agree that they cant find any law to prosecute you under.

Not sure at all how you would stand abroad though, usually if its legal in your home country its legal throughout Europe. But there are several areas where this isnt strictly true. Licencing may be one of them, abroad the law is much clearer and over 7.5 Tonnes you need a higher licence, but here again I know of many people who have very large American motorhomes, they have been pulled up bith here and abroad, their licence as never been called into question.

Jonathon

Maybe their intent was that it would be limited to 7.4 tonnes on minibuses but like the motorhome it is not, for a minibus its very clear because it as its own category and is clearly defined, According to Marsham construction and Use dept the motorhome is the same.

George


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## 88808

I hold HGV and PCV so you can argue amongst yourselves. :wink:


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## Anonymous

I've missed most of this argument, so must agree with Jonathon. I do not have an LGV license - yet. But there is no way I would drive anything bigger than our EuraMobil without one, regardless of the law.

I knocked off part of the side trim on our van. Not because I am a woman, but because I am a car driver and when you get stressed or panic you resort to pre-programming. To drive larger I need new defaults!

Lizzie


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## 88808

benandlizzie said:


> I've missed most of this argument, so must agree with Jonathon. I do not have an LGV license - yet. But there is no way I would drive anything bigger than our EuraMobil without one, regardless of the law.
> 
> I knocked off part of the side trim on our van. Not because I am a woman, but because I am a car driver and when you get stressed or panic you resort to pre-programming. To drive larger I need new defaults!
> 
> Lizzie


Hi Lizzie,

I would highly recommend the LGV (C) licence, you will learn alot about driving large vehicles. There is alot to consider when driving a large vehicle which is not covered in the car test.

Take care

Jonathan


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## Anonymous

Couldn't agree more Jonathon. We have looked into driving large vehicles quite a lot and it's very concerning... 1) the number of RV dealers who actively encourage you to drive one without an LGV test (they often don't have one themselves), 2) the number of people driving larger motorhomes without a class C or C+E when they legally should have one, 3) the number of people who actually think it doesn't make a difference.

It makes sense to be prepared on so many levels - you'll drive it better, bang it up less, be less likely to damage other people and property, plus your insurance will actually be valid etc...

Lizzie
(booked in for LGV medical in 2 weeks, next stop theory!)


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## 88724

Hi 

People often mix up what I am saying here. I dont say its right that people should Just Jump into a large vehicle and drive.

Has far as motorhomes are concerned it is legal to do so, regardless of what the DVLA tell you, they dont write the law and when asked to quote the legislation that backs up their claim they cannot their legal dept spent 6 weeks trying to find it and could only come up with GOODS vehicle law which does not apply to motorhomes (the definitions are down to construction and Use and they say that Motorhomes are NOT Goods vehicles and therefore are not weight restricted.

If you want to say everyone should take a HEAVY GOODS VEHICLE test thats fair enough, but dont try to pretend that its a legal requirement.

Re the insurance thing no insurance company as yet refused to pay out on any accident by saying that the driver needed a Higher rated licence in the 30 + years that these large motorhomes have been imported dont you think thats strange? of all the people I have known that drive them only 2 have HGV licences. and no-one as had any complaints or even a raised eyebrow from the police, The local traffic police dept have looked and can find no charge that they could bring re the licence.

What I have said all along is, that legally you are OK without the licence, the only official body that disagree's is DVLA.

Whethor its actually sensible is another thing entirely.


George


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## 88742

George wrote........



> People often mix up what I am saying here


........is it suprising when you make sweeping statements like this,



> Re the insurance thing no insurance company as yet refused to pay out on any accident by saying that the driver needed a Higher rated licence


Having looked back at some of your posts I think your just here to wind people up, hard as it may be I am going to try and ignore your future postings.

Ian


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## 88724

Hi Ian


Quote 

" I think your just here to wind people up "

I could say the same of your postings lately

Please quote a case were the insurance company as refused to pay out on a large motorhome because of lack of HGV licence.

Like the last time, I asked you to furnish some rebuttal evidence rather than just saying "sweeping Statements" , I wont hold my breath awaiting any evidence to appear.

I spent ages researching this with Phone calls and faxs to 

DVLA and a department of legal bods representing the DVLA

Crown prosecution service (who dropped the only case they ever tried to bring)

Dept of transport

Construction and Use (Marsham)

VOSA

Local Police Traffic Oficer (the chap the police call up to query the position on RT offences)

All of the Above depts cannot find any problem with what I say regarding the legislation Except the DVLA but the DVLA cannot show the legislation that supports their OPINION.

So can you had anything? BTW the American motorhome magazines have never heard of one claim being turned down due to licencing

If you like I can give you their phone numbers and a contact name, you could then ask them yourself, if any insurance company had ever tried it do you think they would not know ?

If you want to disagree or prove me wrong, do some research and show me and everyone else where I am wrong, your sniping doesnt help anyone.




George


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## 88808

My motor insurance policy has the following disclaimer;

"Provided that the person driving holds a licence to drive a motor vehicle or has held and is not disqualified for holding or obtaining such a licence"

That statement places the onus on myself to ensure that the person driving my vehicle holds a licence or provisional licence for the vehicle being driven.

I don't know any insurance company that will pay out on a claim if they can find a way out of paying it.


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## arvy

Who needs the general election when we have topics like this!!


arvy.


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## 88808

arvy said:


> Who needs the general election when we have topics like this!!
> 
> arvy.


Are you thinking, what we are thinking :lol:


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## peejay

Yellow card guys!

Absolutely no G*****l E******n talk unless you're in 'off topic'. [-X

pj.

Am I on the ball or what!! :wink:


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## Anonymous

> Am I on the ball or what!!


Wow, the man's on fire, blew my socks off!!!

And I thought you'd come to break the fight up :lol:

Lizzie


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon

Shall we try some Logic then ?

Quote

I don't know any insurance company that will pay out on a claim if they can find a way out of paying it. 

Basically you are saying that they feel its OK to Drive a large Motorhome on nothing more than a car licence?

Seeing as they have paid out many times on large motorhomes driven by people who do not have an HGV licence, would you say thats evidence that the insurance companies believe a normal car licence is enough to drive a motorhome over 7.5 Tonnes?

George


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## 88808

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Jonathon
> 
> Shall we try some Logic then ?
> 
> Quote
> 
> I don't know any insurance company that will pay out on a claim if they can find a way out of paying it.
> 
> Basically you are saying that they feel its OK to Drive a large Motorhome on nothing more than a car licence?
> 
> Seeing as they have paid out many times on large motorhomes driven by people who do not have an HGV licence, would you say thats evidence that the insurance companies believe a normal car licence is enough to drive a motorhome over 7.5 Tonnes?
> 
> George


I don't know, I've never spoken to anyone who has made an insurance claim for a vehicle they are not licenced to drive?

If I was an insurance claims assessor I would want to see a copy of the driving licence, at least to establish they actually hold a licence.

But my own experience of insurance in general is they will do their best not to pay out.


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon


They used to ask to see your licence after an Accident, Now they dont have to they can pay a subscription and find your licence details via a quick phone call cost per call 49 pence so now they Just ring up and check. they get the low down on points and categories.


Quote

"I don't know, I've never spoken to anyone who has made an insurance claim for a vehicle they are not licenced to drive?"

Nice play on words, but the DVLA's and a few other peoples Opinion does not alter the law as written.

If a claim had been refused due to car licence on large Motorhome then the American motorhome mags would know about it.

Ring them and ask if they know of any claim being refused on those grounds?

George


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## Anonymous

I was unfortunate to have two accidents within a short period of time, whilst driving a 31ft RV. On neither of the occasions was my driving licence qualification taken into consideration, or requested.
Having taken my driving test whilst in the Army back in 1964. My old licence tells me I can drive just about anything that moves on wheels.


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## 88724

Hi John

How long ago? 

And do you have the HGV classification on your new licence.

They (insurance companies) dont have to ask any more to see your licence, they make a quick call to DVLA to find out your points and groups.

George


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## Detourer

Hi

I seem to have lost the plot amongst all this but as we have moved/added the insurance issue..........and if they can find a way out of paying they will:

In the later years running Trailmasters we switched from Land Rover to HUGE support vehicles for our North African tours. Over those years I bought ex-Paris Dakar service vehicles. These WOULD have required HGV, but we ripped out interior and had them fitted and re-reg'd as Motorhomes. I also ran an ex military Tatra and a couple of DAF YA's all well over 7.5 ton, but were converted and re-reg'd as MHomes. As public liability became a factor, as I often carried passengers, I asked specifically with various insurance co's re weight/licence requirements and always, as these vehicle were NOW Mhomes we were oK with normal licences.

As these vehicle were _unusual_ the amount of police pull-overs ran into I would think hundreds, both here and abroad. Licesnces were often checked and on one or two occasions phone calls made before we were always aloud to proceed.

Insurance? Unfortunaly I was recently involved in an horrendous traffic accident, involving serious injury to a child pedestrian who ran into the road. I was driving a MASSIVE Merc Unimog at the time that _was_ ex-HGV but again is now a Mhome. Believe me when I say that during the 6 hours I was held in a police station my "legal" to drive was well and truly checked. The matter has now been finalised without "problems".

In short I have only ever driven HGV vehicles (8) converted to Mhomes and have been dragged well through the legal and insurance system and have emerged intact........


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## Detourer

PS. Don't know how I got a smiley in there..........should have been (8)


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## 88832

Time to put this one to bed then? I have always believed that a Motorcaravan is just that. Not a HGV/LGV but a Motorcaravan. Therefore it is no longer a GOODS vehicle or whatever it was BEFORE conversion, with me so far? Providing you don't exceed the maximum designed weight of said vehicle you are well within the law 8) It all seems daft, but nonetheless true :lol: 
When is a egg not a egg? When it's a motorhome :lol: :lol: :lol: 


Crackpot.


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## Anonymous

Our new van will be taxed as a private LGV. It will need to be driven by someone with an LGV license. This has been checked with all the proper legal people.

Not sure about conversions, I was under the impression that motorhomes still occupy a grey area in many parts of the law/highway code/dvla etc.. and have decided to err on the side of caution in all respects.


Lizzie


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## Anonymous

In answer to George Telford. I passed my test for HGV in the Army in 1964 and my motorcycle test in 1969, also in the Army. I still only have the old paper licence, which states Class A, D, E. Class A says I can drive just about anything excepting those covered by D and E. I have tried to find a direct conversion to the newer style licence without any joy so far. Maybe someone else has the answer. :?:


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## 88724

Hi Ray

Could you let me/us have a few more details, unfortunate though the Childs injuries are, they do tend to confirm what I have said all along Motorhomes are not HGV's and NOT weight restricted. Because they would not have messed around (turned a blind eye) with an Injury case.

Its interesting that even when stopped abroad you have been OK.


George


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## Detourer

Quite right George..........it all still leaves me a little confused though.

Slightly off type of vehicle, but a couple of othern points do show that once a base HGV chassis is constructed and re-reg'ed..............My brother-in-law keeps horses. When last in the UK I went to a large show. Some of the horse boxes there were HUGE, with living accommodation etc etc. I even saw a twin-axel one. One in particular caught my eye, partly because of it's size and partly because of the obviously very young female groom driver. I joked with her about handling, comfort etc and she confirmed her other vehicle was a Ford Fiesta.......and as far as she was concerned/confirmed she could drive that monster on her car licence. I also remember many years ago being involved in moving large ex-military trucks to an out of UK destination (cant say where, but was legal). These vehicle were officually re-reg'ed as ambulances, partly for ease of transit but more for the "anyone can drive" aspect.

Sorry, am I way off plot?

In short it seems to me that no matter what the base vehicle starts life as it's what it ends up as that counts i.e. a motorhome, horsebox, whatever.

And yes, my driving licence and insurance were taken away and put through exceptional scrutiny after the aforementioned incident.

PS. What more details?


----------



## 88724

Well the accident, UK or abroad, is your licence only standard for cars ?
Its interesting because it answers a lot of the snipes that have been put forth

ie Insurance wont pay out (this one crops up continually) 

Being stopped abroad, had enough trouble researching UK Law, which countries etc

You mentioned the legal system, its just a little more detail that may help everyone get a better idea of the Legal position.

Amazing that someone who as had no problems (attempting) to slaughter me on public forum's sends a brief apology via email, but thats better than most who just skulk off when the evidence says they are wrong.

EDITED TO ADD that its not Ray (detourer) who sent me the email, His posts actually support my posting about Motorhomes are Not HGV's


----------



## Detourer

OK George

Accident was in Spain.........and they don't p### around re documents when there is a sniff of trouble. Licence is the pink CC type card with photo. Non HGV.

There was damage to a shop front and my vehicle (after hitting first child and avoiding second one!). Usual investigation with insurance co., NFU on this vehicle as it my "private" one. All sorted. And they were/are well aware that base vehicle is a Merc Unimog.

When running aforementioned mention vehicles in previous post........Most members of my staff and myself, were stopped in, I would say all Euro counties (and beyond) many many times. Some did have HGV, but like me some didn't.......Balance of investigation lent towards we didn't need HGV for the vehicles we drove. Never nicked on a licence issue. If we were, no question, we would have got HGV.

Hope that answers your questions..................Could sound like it was me that sent you an email........I didn't.


----------



## 88808

Do you hold a C1 licence?


----------



## Detourer

Seems like yes, whatever that is!


----------



## 88808

> Slightly off type of vehicle, but a couple of othern points do show that once a base HGV chassis is constructed and re-reg'ed..............My brother-in-law keeps horses. When last in the UK I went to a large show. Some of the horse boxes there were HUGE, with living accommodation etc etc. I even saw a twin-axel one. One in particular caught my eye, partly because of it's size and partly because of the obviously very young female groom driver. I joked with her about handling, comfort etc and she confirmed her other vehicle was a Ford Fiesta.......and as far as she was concerned/confirmed she could drive that monster on her car licence.


Sorry but that is nonsense. The guy who owns the storage yard where Dragon bus lives, had a horse box and he needed a C licence, he also needed a tachograph if he was using it to transport show horses.

I know a girl who drives a large horse box, but it is under 7.5t and she holds a C1 licence.

I also phoned construction and use today with regard to motorcaravans, the nice man told me the definition as per SI (1986) 1078 and that construction and use don't have anything to do with classifying driving licence categories, the DVLA are responsible for driving licences.

Which brings me back to the car licence category B upto 3500KG, anyone want to tell me how you get around the legal definition of a motorcar?


----------



## Detourer

Hi Red_dragon_bus

With all due respect don't draw me into all this. Frankly, I don't give a toss.


----------



## 88808

Detourer said:


> Seems like yes, whatever that is!


Thats the bit of paper that lets you drive something upto 7500KG, not to be confused with the bit of paper which allows people to drive things upto 3500KG


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathon

I think if you are moving horses for someone else its commercial and as you say it then needs Tacho etc. But for personal use with living accomodation.........................

With regards to Marsham, dont ask loaded questions.

The question you need to ask is 

Does a motorcaravan fall under the definition of a HGV to which they will answer NO

at no point have I or anyone else said that C&U Marsham Make licencing decisions, legally the DVLA dont either, thats all down to legisaltion. But the DVLA claim that marsham C&U classify a Motorhome over 7.5 tonnes as an HGV, nut when you ask (marsham) they say exactly the opposite ie a Motorhome is NOT and HGV.

Also construction and use dept are mentioned in the legislation as the arbitors of HGV definition and as I have already said they say Motorhome is Not HGV.

If it is an HGV (as you and the DVLA claim) then all new ones must be fitted with speed limiters and Tachographs. Ask Vosa they say that if a motorhome were classed as an HGV then it would have to be kitted out with Tacho etc Otherwise it would have to be listed as an EXEMPTED vehicle which it is not.

Re going back to motorcar weights, cars are defined and do have a few weights bandied about. BUT a motorhome is not a car.

Next we go back to Minibuses they have no weight limit and can be 20 tonnes or more as long as the vehicle meets construction and use and as the right number of axles etc. this is Just to show that not all vehicles are constricted by weight.

If we follow your logic forward Jonathon, its not a car so cant be driven on car licence, its not an HGV because the people who decide that (Marsham) say its not, The C class on a licence still refers back to HGV law which is Goods Vehicle (which means it doesnt cover motorhomes) so what licence is required Jon? According to the above no-one can drive a large motorhome legally.

How can you dismiss what Ray says Just because it doesnt fit your opinion?

George


----------



## Detourer

Hi RDB

Like I say, not going to get draw into the "argument" side of all this.

My licence says CI. My vehicle has a GVM of 10.600kg + conversion body, not sure of total weight but I may if I see one put it on a wbridge. Can I drive it........legal?


----------



## 88808

A motor caravan does not fall into the definition of a motorcar, nor does it fall into the definition of a HGV, or for that matter a PCV.

There is a legal definition of a motor caravan contained in SI (1986) 1078 which states it is a vehicle designed to carry persons and goods which is fitted with fixed living accommodation.

Now as the legal definition of a car category B is a 4 wheel vehicle upto 3500KG regardless of the use of the vehicle that means it can be a commercial vehicle ie a transit, or a car upto 8 seats. Or a small motorhome.

A person who has a category B licence cannot drive a car which weighs more than 3500KG or tow a trailer over 750KG, if they cannot drive a car over 3500KG does that imply they can drive a van of any size or a lorry of any size provided it's not a car?

Pre 1997 the limit was 7500KG, a minibus is a "small bus", the definition appears to have been lost in translation.

The crux of your arguement is that the HGV licence is for driving goods vehicles. And as a "motorcaravan" is not an HGV therefor it can be driven on a car licence. The only problem with this arguement is that a car licence has a water tight definition which limits the size of vehicle that can be driven. There are a list of exemptions but "motorcaravan" is not on that list.

Using the minibus loop hole also opens up problems, if you state the vehicle is a "motorcaravan" on the V5C then it cannot be a minibus. If it is a "minibus" on the V5C then you run into problems with getting insurance.


----------



## 88808

Detourer said:


> Hi RDB
> 
> Like I say, not going to get draw into the "argument" side of all this.
> 
> My licence says CI. My vehicle has a GVM of 10.600kg + conversion body, not sure of total weight but I may if I see one put it on a wbridge. Can I drive it........legal?


DVLA say NO

I say NO

George says YES

It's your licence :wink:


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## Detourer

Phew, what luck...............police let me go and the insurance paid up.
(and the next Mhome is even bigger).


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathon

From their own website

DVLA cannot give legal advice on how vehicles are classified for driving licence purposes. We can only give general guidance. The Vehicle Standards and Engineering Division, Great Minster House, 76 Marsham St, London, SW1P 4DR,(0207 944 2064), may be able to help classify a vehicle that falls under - Works Trucks, Agricultural Motor Vehicles, Industrial Tractors and Engineering Plant but only for the purposes of its Construction and Use.

So DVLA dont really count

The Law as written

all goverment depts except DVLA ( and they DVLA CANNOT point to the law that agrrees with their opinion, they send a leaflet which states its their opinion only)

Rays and many other peoples experience for last 30+ years

Local Police Traffic officer (the one that sits with the law books and answer plod out there's questions)

Vosa

Ministry

CPS

Construction and Use

Spanish police

Rays insurance companies

I have never suggested usng minibus as a loophole.

I am not going to argue it further with you all the evidence and all these people listed above, especially Rays experiences here and abroad pretty much seals it up for me. All the evidence says your wrong.

Night


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## 88808

Detourer said:


> Phew, what luck...............police let me go and the insurance paid up.
> (and the next Mhome is even bigger).


that was lucky then :lol: :lol:

I wouldnt do it myself


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## Detourer

Hi RDB

Do what?


----------



## 88808

At the end of the day, you are waiting for someone to show you legislation which says you can't.

I am waiting for someone to show me legislation which says you can.

:lol: :lol:

It doesnt say you *can't* drive a massive motorcaravan on a B licence so you say you can.

I have always worked on the principal that I needed to obtain a peice of paper which allows me to do things.

I had to get a bit of paper to allow me to allow me to take charge of the navigation of a ship. I had to study for 4 years and sit many exams before I was allowed to stand on the bridge of a ship on my own. I had to get a bit of paper to allow me to drive the cranes onboard the ships. Yet I cannot drive a crane on dry land :roll:

I needed a peice of paper which would allow me to drive a car under the supervision of a person who is over 21 years old and had held a licence for that category of vehicle for at least 3 years. And if they wanted to charge me money to teach me, they would have to have passed all 3 exams to be granted an ADI badge.

Once I got my peice of paper to allow me to drive a car on my own I was concious that I could not drive a big van or a minibus. So I had to get a peice of paper to let me drive a bus. And then another to let me drive a lorry.

Now I can drive a ship, a car, a bus and a lorry. But I still need another peice of paper to allow me to tow a caravan :lol: :lol:

I am sure I could tow a caravan, I can drive a bus and a lorry and the QE2 for that matter so why don't I just hitch a caravan on the back of my car? Oh b*llox I need another bit of paper to allow me to do it. :?

:lol: :lol:

I collect bits of paper. It lets me sleep easy at night.

If there is anyone else out there who wants to sleep easy at night in their 25 tonne camper van, just get a HGV licence :wink:


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## Detourer

Or cover yourself in loads of paper...........much of it irrelevant.

No problem with sleeping this end.........No little picture of a motorhome on my licence, 30+ years in truck based motorhomes all over the World, never a problem with insurance, never a problem with the law (many dealings with both)..............

25ton motorhome......now there's a thought!


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## 88808

> Or cover yourself in loads of paper...........much of it irrelevant.


Un fortunately we live in a society reliant on bits of paper, In my ten years at sea I saw the introduction of various mad capped trends.

In order to sail a ship from a port, I had to sign and date dozens of check lists. Not just tick the boxes and sign the sheet, but sign and date every box. We used to have a laminated check list on the bridge with pre departure and pre arrival check lists. It was acceptable 10 years ago to tick the boxes with a chinagraph and then enter an entry in the ships log book stating the check list had been completed.

Now there are 3 A4 sheets full of boxes which must be signed and dated fully before an entry is made in the ships log book, the engine room log book, the ships management log and the maneouvering book.

These are all legal documents which are now required. Despite all of this we still managed to sail a ship where the master had forgotten to turn on the bow thruster before letting go the mooring ropes. I hasten to add that the box had been signed and dated to confirm the bow thruster had been switched on and tested.

Ships have been sailing around the world for hundreds of years without quality assurance or the ISM code, but now we have these silly bits of paper and we must fill them in and sign them and date them and file them.

The road traffic act has also changed, they are becoming less specific about certain categories of licence. In the past you did not even have to sit a driving test. Now you have to sit 3 tests before you can even drive a car on your own. Even when you have passed the 3 tests you can only drive little things and you can't tow trailers.

It's all very specific and carefully worded.

Thats another phenomenon this paper culture brings.... arse covering.

The reason I had to sign and date every item on the check list was to ensure I was held accountable for any error.

What a lovely world. :lol:


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## legend

I passed my driving test in the 70's on a motor bike and in a car with manual transmission.
According to my license I am permitted to drive motor vehicles of groups A, D, E

On my license the GROUPS are defined
DRIVING LICENCE GROUPS	(See notes)
A Any motor vehicle other than a vehicle in Group X C
B Any motor vehicle with automatic transmission other than a vehicle in Group X c
C Any motor tricycle (other than an Invalid carriage, weighing not more than 425kg unladen
D	Any motor bicycle (with or without sidecar) b
E	Moped a
F	Agricultural tractor mounted on wheels b
G	Road roller ' b
H Track laying vehicle steered by its tracks
J	Invalid carriage
K	Mowing machine or pedestrian controlled vehicle
L Electrically propelled vehicle (other than an invalid carriage)
M Trolley vehicle
N Vehicle exempted from duty under Section 7(1) of the Vehicles (Excise) Act 1971
X Motor bicycle which is not electrically propelled; road roller; vehicle steered by its tracks; invalid carriage; trolley vehicle 

It also carries these NOTES
NOTES 

'Motor car' means a motor vehicle other than motor cycle or agricultural tractor, which is constructed or adapted to carry passengers or to carry or haul a load but which is not a large passenger vehicle or a goods vehicle.

'Large passenger vehicle' means a motor vehicle constructed or adapted to carry more than 9 persons including the driver.

'Goods vehicle' means a motor vehicle, other than a large passenger vehicle or agricultural tractor, constructed or adapted to carry or haul a load and with a maximum weight exceeding 3.5 tonnes. 

'Maximum weight' means the maximum permitted weight of the vehicle when fully laden; it includes the weight of any trailer or semi-trailer.

Driving Heavy Goods and Public Service Vehicles
You must obtain an additional license before you drive either a heavy goods vehicle or a public service vehicle.

SO.............

1. I reckon Group A allows me to drive ANY MOTOR VEHICLE other than a road roller, a vehicle steered by its tracks, an invalid carriage or a trolley vehicle - it says so.

That's my argumment and I'm sticking to it!!

My Group D allows me to drive a motor cycle - which is surely a motor vehicle and so covered in my group A 'allowance'. Likewise with my group E allowance for a moped.

There is no mention of any weight limit, number of passengers allowed etc etc. I can drive ANY MOTOR VEHICLE except "road roller; vehicle steered by its tracks; invalid carriage; trolley vehicle"

So I am definately OK.

However..........
If for Group A it said 'motor car' that would be a different matter. We have definitions of motor car etc.

So assuming that it really means 'motor car' then it is all right unless it is a "large passenger vehicle or a goods vehicle".

If Group A MEANS Motor Car then I can drive any vehicle which is "not a large passenger vehicle or a goods vehicle"

A large passenger vehicle is for more than 9 people - no mention of weight there.

A 'Motor car' is a vehicle which is not a goods vehicle. i.e. I can drive a motor car but not a goods vehicle.
A goods vehicle is a motor vehicle constructed with a maximim weight of 3.5 tonnes - but I can't drive it anyway according to the above line!

A goods vehicle carries a maximin weight of 3.5 tonnes.

Now presumable we have contents in our motorhomes - bedding, food, clothing, water, bicycles, beach chairs etc etc - i.e. A LOAD. We will all 

be aware of the maximum LOAD that we can carry.
Therfore does it not make it a goods vehicle. i.e. "'Goods vehicle' means a motor vehicle constructed or adapted to carry or haul a load." A motorhome is definately constructed or adapted to carry a load.

This carries a 3.5 tonnes maximum.
But I can't drive it anyway !!

I think the wording on the driving license is all to pot.


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## 88832

QUOTE:Now presumable we have contents in our motorhomes - bedding, food, clothing, water, bicycles, beach chairs etc etc - i.e. A LOAD. We will all

be aware of the maximum LOAD that we can carry.
Therfore does it not make it a goods vehicle. i.e. "'Goods vehicle' means a motor vehicle constructed or adapted to carry or haul a load." A motorhome is definately constructed or adapted to carry a load. >


No it is not :lol: It is constructed to carry people and their PERSONAL belongings and chatels, not for hire or reward ! I have said this before, if you take the goods carrying capability away from a goods vehicle, it can no longer carry goods, so therefore it is no longer a goods vehicle, personal belongings are not classed as goods :lol: 
And you can drive that on a ordinary car licence, fact!
As for big cranes, you only need a ordinary car licence to DRIVE one on the public highway. You will need a CITB cert to operate the crane, but not to drive it! (I am refering to mobile cranes that move on the roads, with wheels) BECAUSE IT IS NOT A GOODS VEHICLE, it is a CRANE :lol: Take the fifth wheel coupling off a articulated tractor unit and you can drive it on a ordinary car licence, it is no longer capable of carrying goods, so is no longer classed as a goods vehicle! A MOTORCARAVAN is not a GOODS vehicle, it is a MOTORCARAVAN  


Crackpot.


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## 88724

Hi Legend

Very good

But where they have removed HGV from wording, the law still refers back too the earlier legislation.

Also Vehicle definitions are done according to construction and Use, Marsham clearly say that a motorhome IS NOT and HGV regardless of its weight


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## 88808

Hi Legend,

As you are aware the licence categories have changed, most licences over the past 20 years state weight limits for vehicle types. It would be interested to see what would happen if you applied for a photo card driving licence?

The structuring of sea going qualifications was changed by the STCW 95 convention, many people who had been sailing as captain on smaller ships found that when they had to revalidate their ship licence they lost their entitlement to sail as master and had to undergo training and exams to pass the masters ticket.

When I passed my car test in 1997 my licence was quite clearly stated 3500KG upto 8 seats. So there is no real way of getting around that definition.


----------



## 88808

> As for big cranes, you only need a ordinary car licence to DRIVE one on the public highway. You will need a CITB cert to operate the crane, but not to drive it! (I am refering to mobile cranes that move on the roads, with wheels) BECAUSE IT IS NOT A GOODS VEHICLE, it is a CRANE Take the fifth wheel coupling off a articulated tractor unit and you can drive it on a ordinary car licence, it is no longer capable of carrying goods, so is no longer classed as a goods vehicle! A MOTORCARAVAN is not a GOODS vehicle, it is a MOTORCARAVAN


Incomplete large vehicles can only be driven based on the weight. If you take the 5th wheel coupling off an artic tractor and the base vehicle weighs more than 3500KG it CANNOT be driven with a B licence. If it is under 3500KG then yes it can be driven on a B licence.

A moblie crane is listed on the list of exemptions

MOBILE CRANES 
Category B licence holders were able to drive mobile cranes up until 31 December 1998. From1st January 1999 a category C1 driving licence is required to drive a mobile crane which exceeds 3.5 tonnes but not 7.5 tonnes and category C if over 7.5 tonnes.


----------



## 88724

Hi Crack pot

I think the wording is Items incedental to the use of the Mobile accomodation, not load when its a motorhome

George


----------



## 88808

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Crack pot
> 
> I think the wording is Items incedental to the use of the Mobile accomodation, not load when its a motorhome
> 
> George


There is a legal definition of a motor caravan contained in *SI (1986) 1078 * which states it is a vehicle designed to carry persons and goods which is fitted with fixed living accommodation.


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon

Isnt that the one defined as a living vehicle ie showmans vehicle which includes commercial use

Just off out so no time to check

George


----------



## legend

Crackpot - All of the wording and information has been taken off my driving license. The official document given to me to inform me of what I can and cannot drive.

Red_dragon - I think you will find that the categories I can drive will be unaltered if I applied for a photo license.

It's a bit like seat belts - if you have a car old enough then the new rules do not apply and you do not have to fit them.

I just find it amazing how ambiguous it all is.


----------



## 88724

Hi All

here are a few Statutory instruments that again show clearly weights with relation to Good vehicles NOT motorhomes.

http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2001/20010306.htm

RED DRAGON QUOTE

There is a legal definition of a motor caravan contained in SI (1986) 1078 which states it is a vehicle designed to carry persons and goods which is fitted with fixed living accommodation.

END QUOTE

Jonathan you are as bad as the DVLA for trying to slip in words that are not there read the actual wording below, the definition is as follows and its in SI 1996 3013 not 1986 1078, second error is that it doesnt mention Goods as the DVLA and yourself claim its worded "their effects", also the living accomodation part is worded vaguely which leaves it open to many interpretations and can be as simple as you like.

"motor caravan" means a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users;

From the link below, which also tracks back to earlier legislation and lists goods vehicles seperately yet again.
http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19963013_en_2.htm

If you look over the licencing regs that the DVLA say cover this you will find that it lists weight limits for goods vehicles, The DVLA claim this covers Motor caravans too, BUT the construction and use Dept say quite clearly that a Motor caravan IS NOT a goods vehicle. The law also lists them Quite seperately especially when it comes to weights, no matter how you and the DVLA try you cannot make a motor caravan fit the Goods vehicle description, their is only one classification that covers a goods vehicle and Motor caravan its called a Living van but even this is clearly defined as a business vehicle with living accomodation (basically showmans vans)

So either no part of your licence covers anyone for motor caravans of any weight or all motorcaravans are covered by default under a normal car licence PRE or POST 1997


----------



## 88808

> Jonathan you are as bad as the DVLA for trying to slip in words that are not there read the actual wording below, the definition is as follows and its in SI 1996 3013 not 1986 1078, second error is that it doesnt mention Goods as the DVLA and yourself claim its worded "their effects", also the living accomodation part is worded vaguely which leaves it open to many interpretations and can be as simple as you like.


Have you actually read SI (1986) 1078 ? It's not available on the net as hmso web records only go back to 1987 :wink:

Ok so we get back to this;

*Show me *where it says I CAN drive a motorcaravan over 3500KG with a 1997 category B driving licence?

It's not good enough to say "it doesnt say I can't". The road traffic act doesnt say I can't fly a helicopter, so does that mean I can use my B licence to fly a helicopter??


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathon 


No I have not read the one you quote, but Marsham have and say that it doesnt include "goods" the one I quoted above is where they amend the law and post the discription of a motor caravan. Evevn if the earlier one did include (which it does not) the later discription would supercede anyway.

I think Ray as shown by precedent over many years, Crackpot and Leyland have also done a pretty good Job, the CPS dropped the only case they have ever tried to bring.

I have recently spoke to someone who has had to produce their docs, related !

They have a 16 tonne eurocargo converted to motorhome

Docs produced.

1. insurance for motorhome
2. Licence standard car pre 97
3. registration documents

Action taken by police ?

Nil 

he as also had to produce is docs for French and Belgium Police, bear in mind this thing is massive and is quite obviously over 7.5 tonnes

End result no action, according to you he is quite obviously not entitled to drive (you are saying the same about Ray) are all the police making glaring errors? even in the case of rays accident ?


----------



## 88808

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992864.htm



> Competence to drive classes of vehicle: general
> 6. - (1) Where a person holds, or has held, a relevant full licence authorising him to drive vehicles included in any category or, as the case may be, sub-category he is deemed competent to drive -
> 
> (a) vehicles of all classes included in that category or sub-category unless by that licence he is or was authorised to drive -
> 
> (i) only motor vehicles of a specified class within that category or sub-category, in which case he shall be deemed competent to drive only vehicles of that class, or
> 
> (ii) only motor vehicles adapted on account of a disability, in which case he shall be deemed competent to drive only such classes of vehicle included in that category or sub-category as are so adapted (and for the purposes of this paragraph, a motor bicycle with a side-car may be treated in an appropriate case as a motor vehicle adapted on account of a disability),
> 
> and
> 
> (b) all classes of vehicle included in any other category or sub-category which is specified in column (3) of Schedule 2 as an additional category or sub-category in relation to that category or sub-category unless by that licence he is or was authorised to drive -
> 
> (i) only motor vehicles having automatic transmission, in which case he shall, subject to paragraph (2), be deemed competent to drive only such classes of motor vehicle included in the additional category or sub-category as have automatic transmission, or
> 
> (ii) only motor vehicles adapted on account of a disability, in which case he shall be deemed competent to drive only such classes of vehicle included in the additional category or sub-category as are so adapted.
> 
> (2) Where the additional category is F, K or P, paragraph (1)(b)(i) shall not apply.


So if you sit a category B test, you can drive vehicles in category B and B1 only.

If your licence states C1 or D1 then you can drive vehicles in that sub category.

B being a vehicle upto 3500KG
C1 being a vehicle upto 7500KG

If you want to drive a vehicle over 7500KG and it is not on the list of exemptions you need to hold a C licence.

It is irrelevant whether the vehicle is a "goods vehicle" or not, if it is over 7500KG you require a C licence.

Motorcaravan is not on the the list of exemptions where it is possible to drive larger vehicles on a B licence, therefor it cannot be driven on a B licence. It then follows that it cannot be driven on a C1 licence if it is over 7500KG

To drive any vehicle over 3500KG which is not a PCV or a large vehicle on the list of exemptions you need a category C licence, or sub category C1 for vehicles under 7500KG.


----------



## 88724

Yes Jonathon

but what you are missing is that were they Just use weights now,when you look at the legisalation it still refers only to GOODS vehicles over those weights and IF it did not several other vehicles would be effected.

When I pointed out that the earlier legisalation as not been changed by that new 1999 act (with regard to vehicles which are not goods vehicles) they have not been able to show were weights have been applied to any vehicle other than Goods Vehicles. They cant show the change in law.

also you would need a Tacho and drivers hours for a motorhome ask VOSA as far as they are concerned a Motor caravan is Not a goods Vehicle


What you have quoted refers back to earlier legisaltion and does not change the position at all.

If it did, it as suddenly made all motorhomes ilegal to drive which is clearly nonsense. Because according to your Helicopter theory because they do not tell you clearly that you can drive a motorhome you obviously cant

Amazing how you keep saying that you and the DVLA are right, but ignoring all the evidence.

were all the cops Involved with Ray and my relative all wrong? are the local traffic office legal Dept wrong?

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.


----------



## 88808

> also you would need a Tacho and drivers hours for a motorhome ask VOSA as far as they are concerned a Motor caravan is Not a goods Vehicle


Not all HGV's or PCV require tacho's or drivers hours. I've been driving for over a year in a double decker bus legally exempt from tachographs and driving hours regulations.

I spoke to construction and use on the phone, as far as they are concerned they have nothing at all to do with driving licences or licence categories. They are only interested in the construction and equipment.

VOSA carry out the inspection of vehicles, they do not have anything to do with driving licence categories.

DVLA maintain a record of vehicle and driver licences and issue the licences.

DSA administer the driving tests.

The police can only go by what they know, it depends on who stops you. I have been stopped in dragon bus and they never asked me to present any documents.

A major factor is when you obtained your licence. The longer you have held your licence the more scope you have for the types of vehicle you can drive.

My mum passed her test in the late 1980's and has a C1 licence, I passed in 1997 and had a B licence.

There is no way you can drive a vehicle over 3500KG with a B licence. There is absolutely no way you can get round it.


----------



## 88808

GeorgeTelford said:


> If it did, it as suddenly made all motorhomes ilegal to drive which is clearly nonsense. Because according to your Helicopter theory because they do not tell you clearly that you can drive a motorhome you obviously cant.


What the legislation actually tells us is that you *can* drive a vehicle upto 3500KG with a category B licence.

It then tells us what other vehicles *can* be driven on a category B licence.

For me that is black and white. With a category B car licence you can drive;



> Holders of a full category B (car) driving licence may drive any of the large vehicles listed below:
> 
> a goods vehicle propelled by steam (e.g. large vehicles with coal or wood burning engines);
> 
> road construction vehicles used or kept on the road solely for the conveyance of built-in road construction machinery (with or without articles or materials used for the purpose of that machinery);
> 
> engineering plant (vehicles designed or constructed for the purpose of engineering operations for mobile cranes see * below)
> 
> works trucks (primarily designed for use in private premises or in the immediate vicinity e.g. dumper trucks/forklift trucks);
> 
> industrial tractors (tractors used mainly for haulage work off the public road, the vehicle must not have an unladen weight exceeding 7370kgs and have a design speed not exceeding 20mph);
> 
> agricultural motor vehicles which are not agricultural or forestry tractors (primarily used off the public road e.g. crop sprayer/combine harvester);
> 
> digging machines (vehicles which are limited to travel on a public road only for the purpose of proceeding to or from sites - used for trench digging or any kind of excavating or shovelling work e.g. vehicles with digging buckets / shovels);
> 
> goods vehicle which is not used on public roads or, if it is so used during any calendar week -
> 
> is used only in passing from land in the occupation of a person keeping the vehicle to other land in the occupation of that person, and
> 
> is not used on public roads for distances exceeding an aggregate of 9.7 kilometres in that calendar week;
> 
> goods vehicle, other than an agricultural motor vehicle, which -
> 
> is used only for purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture or forestry,
> 
> is used on roads only in passing between different areas of land occupied by the same person, and
> 
> in passing between any two such areas does not travel a distance exceeding 1.5 kilometres on roads;
> 
> goods vehicles used for no purpose other than the haulage of lifeboats and the conveyance of the necessary gear of the lifeboats which are being hauled;
> 
> goods vehicles manufactured before 1 January 1960, used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer;
> 
> articulated goods vehicles not exceeding 3.05 tonnes unladen weight;
> 
> goods vehicle in the service of a visiting force or headquarters as defined in the Visiting Forces and International Headquarters (Application of Law Order 1965 (a));
> 
> goods vehicle driven by a constable for the purpose of removing or avoiding obstruction to other road users or other members of the public, for the purpose of protecting life or property (including the vehicle and its load) or for other similar purposes;
> 
> goods vehicle fitted with apparatus designed for raising a disabled vehicle partly from the ground and for drawing a disabled vehicle when so raised (whether by partial superimposition or otherwise) being a vehicle which -
> 
> is used solely for dealing with disabled vehicles;
> 
> is not used for the conveyance of any goods or load other than a disabled vehicle when so raised and water, fuel, accumulators and articles required for the operation of, or in connection with, such apparatus or otherwise for dealing with disabled vehicles; and
> 
> has an unladen weight not exceeding 3.05 tonnes;
> 
> mobile project vehicles - having a maximum authorised mass exceeding 3.5 tonnes and constructed or adapted to carry not more than 8 persons in addition to the driver and carries principally goods or burden consisting of;
> 
> play or educational equipment and articles required in connection with the use of such equipment, or
> 
> articles required for the purposes of display or of an exhibition, and the primary purpose of which is used as a recreational, educational or instructional facility when stationary.
> 
> Drivers must be aged 21 and have held a category B licence for at least 2 years. A mobile project vehicle may only be driven on behalf of a non-commercial body. However, drivers who passed their car test before 1 January 1997 are not subject to these conditions.
> 
> *MOBILE CRANES
> Category B licence holders were able to drive mobile cranes up until 31 December 1998. From1st January 1999 a category C1 driving licence is required to drive a mobile crane which exceeds 3.5 tonnes but not 7.5 tonnes and category C if over 7.5 tonnes.


Now if it's not on the list of things that *can* be driven on a B licence then it I would say that it cannot be driven?


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonthan

One last shot,

Yes because certain vehicles can be legally exempt (from tachographs), a motor home is not on the list of legally exemptable vehicles so............


Do you see a pattern building up Jonathon?

Construction and USE (Please stop wording things as though I have said them its tiresome setting the record straight, besides inaccurately quoting laws ie adding Goods etc into a description when it isnt even there) I agree that they do not decide licencing I have never said otherwise, BUT DVLA say they do decide wethor a vehicle is HGV or not and "THE man from Construction and Use he SAY NO" its not HGV

Do you see a pattern building up Jonathon?

VOSA Yes amongst other things inspect vehicles And they SAY a motorhome is CLASS 4 Same as a car and they dont care if it weighs 40 tonnes as long as its got legal axles, its still a class 4 Same as a car

Do you see a pattern building up Jonathon?

The Police if they dont know radio through to a Traffic division legal officer and I have spoken to the one round here. if its a motorhome they are happy if you have a full car licence PRE or post 97

Do you see a pattern building up Jonathon?

Ray as been involved in a serious accident and as been OK'd driving a huge motorhome, end result No problem (licencing and insurance wise)


Do you see a pattern building up Jonathon?

Next he and other drivers have been stopped many times are all the police officers wrong ?


Do you see a pattern building up Jonathon?

Crown prosecution service dropped the only case they ever started to bring (after going to court 3 times and adjourning) Huge american motorhome in 3rd lane of motorway, eveidence on film, Plod on ground, and the driver signed a statement admitting he was driving on ordinary car licence (I dont know pre or post 97 will have to check that)



My mum passed a PSV in the mid 70's and drove buses in Derby probably before you were born. But as they said in airplane thats not important right now.

Quote

There is no way you can drive a vehicle over 3500KG with a B licence. There is absolutely no way you can get round it.

Talk about ilogical argument ??!!!! people are doing it every day, post 97 drivers are driving huge american motorhomes, visit your local motorcross and ask round the owners of over 3.5 tonne vans you will be amazed how many 18-19 yr olds are driving motorhomes that are obviously over "your" limit.

Jonathon ask if a motorhome is on the list of legally exempted vehicles (exempt from Tachograph) it is not, then ask them how come? its over 7.5 tonnes and not on the list of exemptions, you know what they said? 

It is a motorhome, motorhomes are not weight limited goods vehicles therefore are outside the scope of the legislation....................


Please ask your local cop shop traffic officer what he thinks.

Ring the american motorhome mags and ask them of any case were a driver as been prosecuted for not having HGV to drive a huge american motorhome

One last point

Murder is not against any written statute, do you believe that you would not be prosecuted for murder?, Much of English and Scottish law is set by precedent ie what as gone before, ie it doesnt have to be written down to be legal or vice versa.

What you are trying to say is that all the above as been dealt with by idiots, because they are all getting it wrong according to you and the DVLA



George


----------



## 88808

George,

When is a car not a car?


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathon

Its up to the punters now, there is not much point carrying this on.

What it boils down to is Either ......................

I am right and the Police are acting correctly OR

You are right and all the police forces and the CPS are stupid and Have been for over 30 years.

PS

Two Leading London firms of solicitors and a top Barrister were hired to act on behalf of the Driver Mr Mark Bishop by Travelworld, the main thrust of their defence was that the driver was driving a motor caravan and not a goods vehicle so therefore an LGV or HGV licence was not required.

PPS when I started looking at this I was on "your" side ie I believed that they were getting away with driving over 7.5 tonnes ilegally,the title of my first post on the subject was "How do they get away with driving huge american motorhomes" But as I looked into it I changed my mind.

here is that first post

I have been researching this for over a year now and thought American motor home drivers were just plain lucky to have got away with driving 38ft vehicles that weigh far in excess of 7.5 tonnes on ordinary licences (i.e. not LGV = Large Goods Vehicle or HGV Heavy goods Vehicle)

There are no legal precedents as no case as been "tried", however I have found one case that went to court three times, twice adjourned by the CPS and then on the third occasion they withdrew all charges and the court awarded paid all costs for the defendant!

The CPS cited lack of evidence however this does not ring true as they had Video Camera Evidence, Police on the ground witnesses, and the driver did not deny driving the vehicle, the vehicle was travelling in the Outside lane of the M6 a road position that is totally illegal for LGV and HGV vehicles.

Two Leading London firms of solicitors and a top Barrister were hired to act on behalf of the Driver Mr Mark Bishop by Travelworld, the main thrust of their defence was that the driver was driving a motor caravan and not a goods vehicle so therefore an LGV or HGV licence was not required.

It seems highly likely that the case was dropped because there are no separate rules for motor caravan licensing and that because an LGV and HGV is defined legally as a Goods carrying vehicle (over certain set weights) which obviously a motor caravan is not, that they have no way of bringing charges!! The really strange bit is that if that's the case no-one as got a licence to drive a motor caravan or every-ones full licence covers them for any weight of vehicle that is not a goods vehicle.

I have tried the relevant Transport departments and no-one can give any information as to what class a motor caravan comes under, all initially point to LGV and HGV and when I point out the Definition of HGV/LGV they have no idea of how to actually classify it! I have a string of "I'll get back to you" and they never have!

Have sent a fax today asking them to point out the relevant legislation to back their claim that 7.5 tonnes is the legal max for motor homes without an LGV or HGV licence.

Heres the rest on the SBMCC site

http://s3.invisionfree.com/SBMCC/index.php?showtopic=772&st=0

Always been hotly debated.


----------



## 88808

When did this "test case" take place?

What were the charges?

What was the MAM of the vehicle in question, was it over 7.5tonne?

What sort of licence did the defendant hold at the time?

The law has changed over the past 30 years, driving tests have changed. If you sat your car test today you would have a completely different licence to the one you currently hold.

When I passed my car test, shortly after the 1997 change over I could only drive a vehicle upto 3500KG regardless of use. I could drive a small minibus upto 8 passenger seats, 16 seater under strict conditions after 2years probation.

Now If you are right why is this hire company stating you need a C1 licence to hire one of their motorhomes? I suppose they just assume this to be the case as the government agency that issues driving licences said so.

http://www.tilshead-caravans.com/FrequentlyAskedQuestions.htm#Licence

My brother is a police officer, he holds a B licence, he has declined my offer to have a go driving dragon bus. You don't want to get pulled by him, he's read the traffic officers companion :lol:


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathon

Ring the CPS or travelworld or the American motorhome mags, The names there 2001

I have spoke to CPS you can hear them squirm when you ask what evidence was missing.

Cant find details of vehicle at moment but huge well in excess of 7.5 Tonnes

and they contended he did not need HGV licence so he only had car licence.


----------



## 88808

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Jonathon
> 
> Ring the CPS or travelworld or the American motorhome mags, The names there 2001
> 
> I have spoke to CPS you can hear them squirm when you ask what evidence was missing.
> 
> Cant find details of vehicle at moment but huge well in excess of 7.5 Tonnes
> 
> and they contended he did not need HGV licence so he only had car licence.


But you are not giving me any hard facts or evidence, just hear say.

I have proven through legislation that it is illegal to drive a motorhome over 3500KG with a B licence. You cannot give me any evidence which contradicts the law as written.

My mate drove from Cornwall to Edinburgh in a LWB transit pulling a double axle trailer with an American car on the back. He's not got a licence to pull that size of trailer on a vehicle that size. He got pulled by the police for a routine check, he did not produce his licence at the scene. They just took it at face value he had the correct licence. Does that mean therefor a legal precedent has been set where anyone can do that and the police will not touch them.

Weight is an issue for people who hold a licence which is restricted by weight.

My category B licence was quite specific, 3500KG. I could not drive a limo with a MAM over 3500KG on my B licence as it was over the weight limit, despite it being "a car".


----------



## 88724

Jonathon the evidence is there

RING and ASK

You are wrong the leguislation does not support you at all.

Fin


----------



## 88808

Here it is in black and white. This is the legislation as contained in the SI relating to *Driving licences*.



red_dragon_bus said:


> What the legislation actually tells us is that you *can* drive a vehicle upto 3500KG with a category B licence.
> 
> It then tells us what other vehicles *can* be driven on a category B licence.
> 
> For me that is black and white. With a category B car licence you can drive;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Holders of a full category B (car) driving licence may drive any of the large vehicles listed below:
> 
> a goods vehicle propelled by steam (e.g. large vehicles with coal or wood burning engines);
> 
> road construction vehicles used or kept on the road solely for the conveyance of built-in road construction machinery (with or without articles or materials used for the purpose of that machinery);
> 
> engineering plant (vehicles designed or constructed for the purpose of engineering operations for mobile cranes see * below)
> 
> works trucks (primarily designed for use in private premises or in the immediate vicinity e.g. dumper trucks/forklift trucks);
> 
> industrial tractors (tractors used mainly for haulage work off the public road, the vehicle must not have an unladen weight exceeding 7370kgs and have a design speed not exceeding 20mph);
> 
> agricultural motor vehicles which are not agricultural or forestry tractors (primarily used off the public road e.g. crop sprayer/combine harvester);
> 
> digging machines (vehicles which are limited to travel on a public road only for the purpose of proceeding to or from sites - used for trench digging or any kind of excavating or shovelling work e.g. vehicles with digging buckets / shovels);
> 
> goods vehicle which is not used on public roads or, if it is so used during any calendar week -
> 
> is used only in passing from land in the occupation of a person keeping the vehicle to other land in the occupation of that person, and
> 
> is not used on public roads for distances exceeding an aggregate of 9.7 kilometres in that calendar week;
> 
> goods vehicle, other than an agricultural motor vehicle, which -
> 
> is used only for purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture or forestry,
> 
> is used on roads only in passing between different areas of land occupied by the same person, and
> 
> in passing between any two such areas does not travel a distance exceeding 1.5 kilometres on roads;
> 
> goods vehicles used for no purpose other than the haulage of lifeboats and the conveyance of the necessary gear of the lifeboats which are being hauled;
> 
> goods vehicles manufactured before 1 January 1960, used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer;
> 
> articulated goods vehicles not exceeding 3.05 tonnes unladen weight;
> 
> goods vehicle in the service of a visiting force or headquarters as defined in the Visiting Forces and International Headquarters (Application of Law Order 1965 (a));
> 
> goods vehicle driven by a constable for the purpose of removing or avoiding obstruction to other road users or other members of the public, for the purpose of protecting life or property (including the vehicle and its load) or for other similar purposes;
> 
> goods vehicle fitted with apparatus designed for raising a disabled vehicle partly from the ground and for drawing a disabled vehicle when so raised (whether by partial superimposition or otherwise) being a vehicle which -
> 
> is used solely for dealing with disabled vehicles;
> 
> is not used for the conveyance of any goods or load other than a disabled vehicle when so raised and water, fuel, accumulators and articles required for the operation of, or in connection with, such apparatus or otherwise for dealing with disabled vehicles; and
> 
> has an unladen weight not exceeding 3.05 tonnes;
> 
> mobile project vehicles - having a maximum authorised mass exceeding 3.5 tonnes and constructed or adapted to carry not more than 8 persons in addition to the driver and carries principally goods or burden consisting of;
> 
> play or educational equipment and articles required in connection with the use of such equipment, or
> 
> articles required for the purposes of display or of an exhibition, and the primary purpose of which is used as a recreational, educational or instructional facility when stationary.
> 
> Drivers must be aged 21 and have held a category B licence for at least 2 years. A mobile project vehicle may only be driven on behalf of a non-commercial body. However, drivers who passed their car test before 1 January 1997 are not subject to these conditions.
> 
> *MOBILE CRANES
> Category B licence holders were able to drive mobile cranes up until 31 December 1998. From1st January 1999 a category C1 driving licence is required to drive a mobile crane which exceeds 3.5 tonnes but not 7.5 tonnes and category C if over 7.5 tonnes.
> 
> 
> 
> Now if it's not on the list of things that *can* be driven on a B licence then it I would say that it cannot be driven?
Click to expand...


----------



## 88724

So Jonathon

Are all the police stupid? why do they not pass these cases to the CPS?

Plod on ground if they dont know radio through to traffic legal officer and he checks all these officers must be stupid too


Why in 30 + years as there never been a single prosecution, are all police officers stupid, by implication that is whatvyou are saying, ask your brother to quote one case.

Ring the CPS and ask about that case see if you find their story believable

Ring Travelworld.

everything out there in the real world says that even if you are right, its totally ignored and after a recent ruling that would be a defence, there is a precedent been set in another motorhome case about ilegal width on American Motorhomes ie because its been turned a blind eye to for years it as in effect become legal !! Strange but true.

So applying that ruling, because its been ignored for years it as become legal (even assuming you were right, in the first place)

Really its down to the punters now.


----------



## Detourer

Evening George and Jonathan

IF I get nicked................will you both come to court with me?


----------



## 88808

How do you know that your "test case" is the only case where a driver has been prosecuted for driving without the correct licence category?

My brother will not drive dragon bus, because he is under the misguided (apparently) opinion that his driving licence only permits him to drive vehicles upto 3500KG plus those on the exemption list. Although in his capacity as a police officer he can legally drive my vehicle to clear the road in the event of an emergency.

A police officer on the street doesnt know the differnce between a 7.5 tonne lorry and a 14 tonne lorry. They can both in fact be the same vehicle. Simply deplate a 14 tonne lorry to 7.5 tonne and you can drive it on a C1 licence. From the outside you can't tell the difference.

I knew a guy who held an automatic bus licence, he wanted to drive manual coaches. So he went to a back street coach company and got a job driving manual coaches. He never carried his licence. If he was ever stopped he would take his licence into the police station. The staff at the police station don't know that the vehicle was manual, they just check that he had a valid bus licence. Which he did.

My bus instructor passed his one and only driving test in a double decker bus. He had never driven a car in his life. Things have changed since then. I have a mate who passed his car test 6 months before me. He can drive C1 on his licence yet I passed the same test just after the 1997 change over and only got B on my licence.

When I passed my D licence I could not drive a 7.5tonner yet my mate who has never had a single lesson in anything bigger than a corsa could.


----------



## legend

I'm giving up reading these pages!

I'll take my chances.

Have a good time lads.

I'm sure you'll get it sorted sometime.


----------



## 88808

I'll ask my brother to pull a motorhome and attempt to charge the driver if they don't have the correct licence entitlement. Best keep out of the Edinburgh area for a while :lol: :lol:


----------



## Detourer

All the confusion and doubt re paperwork aside, what are you saying. "affected" Mhome/RV/Converted owners should have HGV?


----------



## fdhadi

Did you know you can drive a huge monster Crane on a car licence!!!!!!!!!

Also, people who use their own cars or parents cars for driving tests do not generally have insurance cover.
Most insurance states
" not insured for test purposes"

Frank


----------



## 88808

fdhadi said:


> Did you know you can drive a huge monster Crane on a car licence!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Frank


*MOBILE CRANES 
Category B licence holders were able to drive mobile cranes up until 31 December 1998. From1st January 1999 a category C1 driving licence is required to drive a mobile crane which exceeds 3.5 tonnes but not 7.5 tonnes and category C if over 7.5 tonnes.



> Also, people who use their own cars or parents cars for driving tests do not generally have insurance cover.
> Most insurance states
> " not insured for test purposes"


The DSA have a box at the top of the driving test form which the learner is required to sign. It is a disclaimer to the effect that they are insured to drive the vehicle for the purpose of the driving test. The DSA do not ask to see the insurance policy, they have covered their own back and put the onus on the driver to ensure they are covered. A driving test examiner will never drive a vehicle that is used on a test regardless of whether it is a private car or a driving school car.

The only time an examiner will drive is for the ADI part 3 test where the examiner drives the car to role play a learner. The PDI must sign a disclaimer to the effect that the examiner is insured to drive the car. The examiner may ask to see the policy as they are driving the vehicle.


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathon

You asked a pertinant Question

RING CPS ask about that case, then ask them have they ever prosecuted a case, they may get arsey and make you write in (they didnt with me) to Save time they may just tell you over the Phone, that NO they have never ever prosecuted anyone for driving a Motorhome over 7.5 Tonnes, if they at first try to bluff ask them for the case name (and reference) 

If your brother asks they will not press it forward anyway, they will call him back and send the motorhome on its way, if its same as UK system(do the Scottish courts go via CPS ? not 100% certain how the law works up there)

Why do you assume the Police are dumb Jon? I will have to have a word with a few traffic cops tommorow if I get time and see how stupid they really are. I cant believe a traffic cop doesnt know anything about vehicles as per your statement, by your reckoning no traffic cop kows anything about any vehicle so we should all be safe anyway !!

Night


----------



## 88808

Detourer said:


> All the confusion and doubt re paperwork aside, what are you saying. "affected" Mhome/RV/Converted owners should have HGV?


The legislation states that you need a licence to drive a vehicle based on the MAM, so if the vehicle is over 7500KG a category C licence is required. Regardless of whether it is used to carry "goods" the only exception being a PCV which is covered by the D licence.

On the ground if a C1 holder is stopped by the police in a large vehicle the police may not know the MAM of the vehicle and assume it is under 7500KG ???

If a B licence holder was stopped by the police in a 40ft RV I would imagine they would start asking questions.


----------



## fdhadi

Lets all sleep on this,

take the weight off our feet so to speak.


----------



## Detourer

red_dragon_bus said:


> If a B licence holder was stopped by the police in a 40ft RV I would imagine they would start asking questions.


And the questions being what?


----------



## 88808

GeorgeTelford said:


> Why do you assume the Police are dumb Jon? I will have to have a word with a few traffic cops tommorow if I get time and see how stupid they really are. I cant believe a traffic cop doesnt know anything about vehicles as per your statement, by your reckoning no traffic cop kows anything about any vehicle so we should all be safe anyway !!


No far from it, I think the police are very intelligent.

Generally if they stop someone, they stop them for a reason. ie they were speeding. A police officer on the street may not have access to all of the relevant facts. A driver may not have a licence on them. It can be difficult to ascertain the weight of a vehicle without actually weighing it.

If the police officer has no reason to believe that the driver doesnt have the correct licence then they won't pursue it. It would be fair to assume that someone driving such a large vehicle would have the correct licence.

If I back track a little, I mentioned the merchant navy last night. The introduction of arse covering. We had to sign boxes to ensure accountability, ie we could be held accountable for our actions.

The DVLA state that to drive a motorhome over 7500KG you need a C licence. The onus is then put onto the licence holder to ensure they hold the correct licence.

I don't know if you have ever seen an advisory speed limit sign, they are in white rectangles often under a warning triangle for a bend. You cannot be charged for speeding if you go faster than the speed on the sign as it is "advisory", however if you skid off the road due to exessive speed you won't have a leg to stand on in court.


----------



## 88808

Detourer said:


> red_dragon_bus said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a B licence holder was stopped by the police in a 40ft RV I would imagine they would start asking questions.
> 
> 
> 
> And the questions being what?
Click to expand...

Is the MAM of this vehicle more than 3500KG?


----------



## Detourer

I would say yes.............then hand him a couple of mobile's. 

"talk with my mates George and Jon"

I would leave the scene as he through himself under the wheels of the next BIG MH that came past..............

Only joking :lol:


----------



## 88808

Detourer said:


> I would say yes.............then hand him a couple of mobile's.
> 
> "talk with my mates George and Jon"
> 
> I would leave the scene as he through himself under the wheels of the next BIG MH that came past..............
> 
> Only joking :lol:


 :lol: :lol:

I would imagine the copper would whip out his trusty copy of the traffic officers companion and turn to page 109 where there is a nice table containing the definitions as per Regs 4, 40 and schedule 2 motor vehicles (driving licences) regulations 1999 where a category B driving licence states "having a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 3.5 tonnes".

Lets be avin you 8)


----------



## Detourer

At which point I would probably throw myself under the next huge Mh that came past!!


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathon


So they are all Inteligent, but a the same time not one as had the inteligence to check out the weight plate? They see a huge Coach conversion or Eurocargo E 16 and not one as thought to look.

The people that Stop vehicles are supposed to be traffic specialists, they have access to a Traffic division legal advice chap 24/7

Yet these same people sort out overweight HGV's on a regular basis, but a few plastic windows and living accomodation totally befuddles them.

Suddenly a 36ft monster motor caravan looks like it must weigh less than 3.5 tonnes ? If its over 3.5 tonnes they would/should be asking when you passed your test

to quote you

"I would imagine the copper would whip out his trusty copy of the traffic officers companion and turn to page 109 where there is a nice table containing the definitions as per Regs 4, 40 and schedule 2 motor vehicles (driving licences) regulations 1999 where a category B driving licence states "having a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 3.5 tonnes".

But for some reason it never happens, how do you explain that Jonathon?


----------



## 88724

Jonathon quote

"It would be fair to assume that someone driving such a large vehicle would have the correct licence."

Please Jonathon get real, they never assume anything thats why they they had out producers like confetti

as it is they can check you licence and insurance before you have even stopped.


----------



## Anonymous

I have met a number of people driving such vehicles without the correct license and, frankly, I think they're idiots. As I see it you need a C license to drive over 7.5T and it's stupid to decide to break the law on the basis that 'everyone else does it' and gets away with it.

This is clearly a grey area (similar to A-frames and towing) that I think most of the police etc. choose to ignore it - probably to avoid arguments like this one :wink: 

Enjoy
Lizzie

P.S. love the bus Jonathon !


----------



## 88724

Hi Lizzie

Great for you to express an opinion, but do remember its only your opinion that they have not got the correct licence and that are breaking the law and therefore also criminally negligent and getting away with it but do you have to include name calling? idiot and stupid may be your personal opinion of Ray and others here, but personal abuse is frowned upon, actually in some circumstances its ilegal and even criminal.

Why would they turn a blind eye to it? The CPS have tried to prosecute one case and withdrew all charges at 3 rd court date, after 2 previous adjournments.

Argument or discussion ? This is a discussion of Diametrically opposed points of view.

But argument used correctly is not a bad thing, An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.

Some of the above definitions courtesy of the Monty Python Argument sketch (who says comedy isnt also educational?)

I tend to agree with both you and Jonathon that some training in large vehicles should be compulsory and obviously to see whethor this training as been effective a Test and extra Class on you licence given.

BUT this really is way different than saying its illegal now, which is were we disagree.

But also look around do you think the test actually produces good, competant, courteous drivers?


----------



## 88941

The way i look at all of this is, i passed my driving test in a car, i was taught to handle a vehicle that was no bigger than a car.

Personally as far as i am concerned to drive something which is possibly 34' long and considerably wider and higher than a car requires further training, if that further training comes by way of doing the LGV test then so be it.. irrespective of the weight issue.. When all is said and done peoples safety is being put at risk.

i would not pass my private pilots licence and then think i could fly a 747.
Just because something has wheels and there is a grey area on the weight issue doesnt make you competent to drive it. that can only be achieved through proper training, or plenty of experience and good luck.. i know which route i prefer.

I do not have the arrogance to think i can just jump into anything and handle it without the proper training if however you do then good luck to you but please dont kill me whilst i am training to drive such a large vehicle properly..

I am doing my LGV not for the piece of paper i will get at the end.. but for my own peace of mind in knowing that i have been trained properly..

Keith.....


----------



## 88808

> Lizzie
> 
> P.S. love the bus Jonathon !


 Thanks 

George...

I have been stopped by the police, I did not have my licence on me, they did not ask to see it.

I was stopped so that the HM customs could check my fuel, and so VOSA could check my vehicle.

If the traffic officer in attendance had any reason to believe I did not hold a licence or insurance etc, he would have asked me to produce my documents.

The purpose of stopping me was purely to check my fuel and vehicle condition.

The police officer can dig as deep as they want, they could stop you for a defective head light. Ask you to get it fixed and send you on your way. Or they could go over your vehicle with a fine tooth comb and ask you to present your documents.

It varies from police officer, force, country, day, week, year.

At the end of the day the police have got plenty other things to do without having to check that people driving enormous motorhomes have a licence. If it did go to court you would just get a few points a few quid and a slap on the wrist. Unless the judge was having a bad day, or had been cut up over the weekend by an 18 year old in 40ft RV doing 95 in the third lane of the motorway.


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathan

It beggars belief that you want us to Believe that you really think that it in 30 + Years no-one as ever thought to check, you really cannot be that naive.

Traffic police pull over a 38 foot huge motorhome and it did'nt occur to them that the driver may not have the correct licence.

HGV Drivers regularly have to show or produce their licence, but you think they just assume with a motorhome, please this is getting ridiculous.

You say it varies, but what are the odds that in 30 + years
that this happens every time.

EDIT to add

And unless you are saying Rays a liar is licence as been checked in this country many times and that of the drivers he employed.


----------



## 88808

GeorgeTelford said:


> But also look around do you think the test actually produces good, competant, courteous drivers?


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Training is the key to producing safe drivers, I teach people to drive cars, as per the DSA sylabus. In order to get a car licence today you must;

1. Sit a highway code theory test.
2. Sit a computer based hazard perception test
3. Demonstrate a working knowledge of car maintenance such as tyres, fluid levels, condition of vehicle etc
4. Demonstrate that you can drive safely for 40 minutes in varied road and traffic conditions and perform 2 out of 3 pre set maneouvres.

Once you have completed all of that, your examiner will recommend you do additional training in the form of a "pass plus" course to develop your driving skills.

For the first 2 years you are on probation, if you get 6 points on your licence you will lose your licence and have to reapply and start again.

This does not make you a good driver. It simply teaches the core skills needed to drive a CAR or SMALL van.

Having a driving licence does not make anyone a good driver, it simply demonstrates that they achieved the minimum standard. It is upto the individual to decide if they are going to obey the laws and drive properly.

Alot of people have been getting away with speeding for a long time, drink driving, driving without a licence or insurance or MOT, it does not mean it is legal.


----------



## 88808

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Jonathan
> 
> It beggars belief that you want us to Believe that you really think that it in 30 + Years no-one as ever thought to check, you really cannot be that naive.
> 
> Traffic police pull over a 38 foot huge motorhome and it did'nt occur to them that the driver may not have the correct licence.
> 
> HGV Drivers regularly have to show or produce their licence, but you think they just assume with a motorhome, please this is getting ridiculous.
> 
> You say it varies, but what are the odds that in 30 + years
> that this happens every time.
> 
> EDIT to add
> 
> And unless you are saying Rays a liar is licence as been checked in this country many times and that of the drivers he employed.


Find me a post 1997 B licence holder who has been stopped by the police in a Large motorhome recently who presented their B licence at the scene to a traffic officer.


----------



## 88724

Hi again

you still believe against all odds !!


Jon quote

"Alot of people have been getting away with speeding for a long time, drink driving, driving without a licence or insurance or MOT, it does not mean it is legal."

No Jonathon different entirely these activities are specifically ilegal, world of difference.

You strike me as inteligent and articulate, so you cant really believe that its just down to chance that no-one as ever been done for it.

anyway I think we have exhausted this subject, its down to opinion and also the evidence that even if it were ilegal then nothing is ever done about it.

George


----------



## Anonymous

George, you too are only expressing an opinion.



> idiot and stupid may be your personal opinion of Ray and others here


It is not. Some people just delight in mis-quoting and provoking others.



> personal abuse is frowned upon, actually in some circumstances its ilegal and even criminal


Shame we can't take our own advice isn't it. I have noted that many of your comments are not only personally insulting but bordering on libelous.

Bye bye
Lizzie


----------



## 88808

> the evidence that even if it were ilegal then nothing is ever done about it.


Alot of criminal activity never goes to trial, the police and the courts have plenty of other things to be getting on with. To prosecute a person for driving without the correct licence entitlement is more time consuming than issuing a fixed penalty speeding ticket.

Just because you get away with it does not make it legal. And for newer drivers there is no way of getting round the 3500KG limit on the B licence.

20 years ago drink driving was normal, speeding was normal. Speeding is still normal for alot of people, but it's increasingly getting more and more difficult to speed due to cameras.

The police have the power to issue parking tickets, when was the last time you saw a police officer issue a parking ticket? Does that mean parking on double yellow lines on a corner is now acceptable?


----------



## 88724

Hi Lizzie

You said people who do it are stupid and Idiots, Ray says He as and does do it, If you cant see that you are insulting Ray and other's by implication then.........

Here are your words not in any way adjusted.

I think they're idiots. As I see it you need a C license to drive over 7.5T and it's stupid to decide to break the law on the basis that 'everyone else does it' and gets away with it. 

I was not delighting in it or misquoting you, just gently indicating that you were being less than nice to Ray and others


Comments can either be libelous or not, a comment is either factual and true or libelous, I cannot see your solicitor ever telling you its bordering on libelous, you cannot be slightly libelous, that is a ridiculous thing to say.

The lights are on but I am only bordering on being home

Myself and Jonathon have disagreed vehemently here, but not resorted to name calling.


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## 88808

> I think they're idiots. As I see it you need a C license to drive over 7.5T and it's stupid to decide to break the law on the basis that 'everyone else does it' and gets away with it.


I would actually agree with Lizzie, there are a group of people who want to keep our roads safe, make sure we have proper training and hold the correct licence. Which the DVLA state is required. Obviously the DVLA are less intelligent than the police, the DVLA only issue the driving licences in the first place.

I have yet to be convinced that there is actually a "grey area" or loop hole in the law. The legislation appears clear to me. It tells me what I can drive. *You still rely on the fact it doesnt say you can't so you must be able to.*


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon


Parking was decriminalised in 1991 this may explain your last post

Under the decriminalised scheme brought in by the Road Traffic Act 1991, when a vehicle is, for example, parked on a yellow line during controlled hours, it is said to be parked ‘in contravention of the regulations’. Thus there are no offences, merely contraventions.

Thus it is not a Police matter unless an Obstruction or some other Criminal matter occurs.


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## 88832

Please have a look at this page, in particular MOTORCARAVAN and tell me where it mentions weight :lol: 
http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/carlgvowners/mottesting/mottestfees.htm#P28_383

A motorcaravan does NOT come under the commercial vehicle umbrella, at all, ever, never :lol: :lol: :lol:

Crackpot.


----------



## 88808

GeorgeTelford said:


> Thus it is not a Police matter unless an Obstruction or some other Criminal matter occurs.


Parking on a double yellow line on a corner is causing an obstruction. I have been stuck many a time in Edinburgh whilst driving a bus. A road or junction blocked by a badly parked car. I have contacted the police, they have better things to do than move cars. They still have the power to issue a ticket or have a vehicle removed.

A shop in Edinburgh was robbed, the police turned up 2 days later.

Are you thinking, what we're thinking :lol: (political joke :wink: )


----------



## 88808

Crackpot said:


> Please have a look at this page, in particular MOTORCARAVAN and tell me where it mentions weight :lol:
> http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/carlgvowners/mottesting/mottestfees.htm#P28_383
> 
> A motorcaravan does NOT come under the commercial vehicle umbrella, at all, ever, never :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Crackpot.


An MOT is not a driving licence, different issue all together. When dragon bus was tested as an HGV it was issued with a class IV MOT. That was the empty shell of a bus with no seats and a MAM of 14 tonne.


----------



## 88832

QUOTE:An MOT is not a driving licence, different issue all together. When dragon bus was tested as an HGV it was issued with a class IV MOT. That was the empty shell of a bus with no seats and a MAM of 14 tonne.>

There you have just admitted your vehicle has a class 4 MOT with a MAM of 14 tonne. No question about weight there then! So it is not a PSV or HGV/LGV what is it, could it be a MOTORCARAVAN? That you can legally drive on a car licence pre or post 1997 test.
Got to go back to work, later.

Crackpot.


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathon

I am still trying to figure out what you mean by that, Class IV is car/Motorcaravan MOT, did they do car MOT on basis that you were going to convert ?



George


----------



## 88808

Crackpot said:


> There you have just admitted your vehicle has a class 4 MOT with a MAM of 14 tonne. No question about weight there then! So it is not a PSV or HGV/LGV what is it, could it be a MOTORCARAVAN? That you can legally drive on a car licence pre or post 1997 test.
> Got to go back to work, later.
> 
> Crackpot.


The MOT has no bearing on the driving licence required. All vehicles under go the same MOT test. A bus full of seats, and a bus with no seats gets the same inspection. The only difference being they don't have to check all of the seats. Because there are no seats to check. The different class of MOT reflects the price you pay for the test. You pay more for a bus with seats than you do if there are no seats because of the extra work involved.

The base vehicle still has the same MAM so requires a driving licence appropriate to the MAM.

As the vehicle is no longer a PSV due to seating capacity it can no longer be driven on a D licence, therefor a C licence was required.

The vehicle was not a motorcaravan in any respect as it was the empty shell of a bus.


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## 88724

"The vehicle was not a motorcaravan in any respect as it was the empty shell of a bus."

with a MAM of 14 tonnes

In which case it should NOT have been tested as a Class IV, by your own Standards for safety this needs the full rigourous HGV test and not the far less rigourous car test.


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## 88808

> In which case it should NOT have been tested as a Class IV, by your own Standards for safety this needs the full rigourous HGV test and not the far less rigourous car test.


The actual physical check of the vehicle is the same! The same man has inspected my vehicle three years in a row. The first time it went through a class V test as it had 49 seats, the second time it had no seats, the third time it was a motorhome.

They check the same things to the same standard. There are obviously additional things like legal lettering, fire extinguisher, bell, which are specific to PSV or HGV but the actual physical inspection of the steering, brakes, suspension, chassis, emissions etc etc are all the same for ALL vehicles.

Now lets have a look at anothe vehicle in the class IV band;

Private Passenger Vehicles & Ambulances (9 - 12 Passenger Seats)

Can a B licence holder drive such a vehicle? Lets have a look.....



> 2. Drivers who do not have minibus entitlement (Category D1)
> If your driving licence does not allow you to drive minibuses, there are certain circumstances where you still may be able to do so.
> 
> You may drive a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats if:
> 
> i) you drive on behalf of a non commercial body for social purposes but not for hire or reward, unless operating under a permit;
> 
> ii) you are aged 21;
> 
> iii) you have held a car (category B) licence for at least 2 years;
> 
> iv) you are providing your service on a voluntary basis; and
> 
> v) the minibus maximum weight is not more than 3.5 tonnes excluding any specialist equipment for the carriage of disabled passengers. Minibuses up to 4.25 tonnes will be permitted in certain circumstances.
> 
> vi)if you are aged 70 and over, you are able to meet the health standards for driving a vehicle (i.e. minibus) which comes within the D1 class;
> 
> When driving a minibus under these conditions you may not receive any payment or consideration for doing so other than out of pocket expenses or tow any size trailer; you may only drive minibuses in this country.
> 
> Drivers aged 70 or over will need to make a special application which involves meeting higher medical standards.


Yes under certain circumstances, but they are limited to vehicles upto 3500KG, with a concession upto 4.25 tonnes to allow for wheel chair lifts.

That is a Class IV MOT'd vehicle which CANNOT be driven by a B holder if it is over 4.25 tonnes.


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## 88808

Just found this on the VOSA website

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/privatehgvpsvowners/driverresponsibilities/vocationaldriverslicence.htm

"To drive any vehicle over 3,500kgs, minibuses and buses you must apply for a Vocational Drivers Licence. "


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## 88724

Hi

According to VOSA.

The vehicle should have been Tested as an HGV, there is a seperate manual for testing HGV and PSV vehicles which is distinct and different to the Class 4 test.

Why do you keep making things up to suit Jonathon?

If you feel the need to confirm here are VOSA's contact details

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/contactus/contactus.htm


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## 88808

> there is a seperate manual for testing HGV and PSV vehicles which is distinct and different to the Class 4 test.


I never said there wasnt a different manual, but they still test the vehicle to the same standards.

There are key areas which do not apply to different types of vehicle;

Why would they want to inspect my 5th wheel coupling? 
Why would they want to check my bells work??
The vehicle is "private" and not used for hire and reward so I don't need an operators licence despite it being over 3500KG so they don't need to check my O disk, or my legal lettering.
I don't have twist locks to secure a cargo container, so they don't have to check that.

But the base vehicle checks are all the same.

A car, a bus and a lorry all undergo the same checks for the MOT.


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## 88724

OK Jonathon 

So you're right and the man from VOSA is wrong?, according to him they are checked to different standards. There are prescribed limits for wear, that are measured rather than by feel for Kingpins etc different tread depths and many differences even on the basic test. They are not just tested differently on the actual differences even the basic test is to a different standard.



An empty vehicle with 14 tonne MAM GVW requires HGV test and depending on year, different speed limiter settings and under no circumstances would it be tested to Class IV


Speak to Technical services


0845 6005977


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## 88808

I'll have to give my MOT tester a slap then :lol: :lol: 

But according to you that means that a 14 tonne vehicle is considered to be an HGV??

If thats the case then surely I would need an HGV licence to drive it?


----------



## 88808

GeorgeTelford said:


> So you're right and the man from VOSA is wrong?,


 :lol: :lol:

George, HELLO

So you're right and the man from DVLA is wrong?

0870 240 0009


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## Detourer

Hi all

I, of course do not see/take your (Lizzie) comments as they may at first seem. I know what you are saying.

The MH vehicles I have owned/driven over the many years in business/private have been far too expensive to mess around with re insurance etc. Always the insurance have and are well aware of weight......and at times we have had to produce an engineers report. As Jonathan says, you might get a slapped wrist for not having the right licence............BUT, you may well loose your vehicle if the insurance fails to pay after a claim.....and they do and have paid. My recent claim could, with the personal injury and property damage, have run into telephone numbers........as it was they payed out £20.000 +. If, because of no licence to drive they could have got away with paying then rest assured they would have. The only restriction we have had over the years re insurance has been lower age i.e. 25yrs. Re the licence issue. I have taken so much advice in the past and have never been told that I/we need HGV or whatever.

Why, running and owning these vehicle have I not bothered to take a HGV? Firstly, I am sorry to say time.......secondly why? I don't fly an aircraft so why take a pilots licence test. Thirdly, I don't think that a 3 day HGV tuition/test does much...oops, sorry. 

I am too far down the line to worry that much, BUT if the law DEFINITIVELY say I need whatever licence I will get one.

Police/Abroad etc......... I remember being stopped on the way to a UK trade show by "traffic Police".....In so much as they were pulling heavies and going all over and under them, they obviously knew their stuff. Fascinated by the vehicle (ex Paris-Dakar service Tatra, now a Hhome/support) and while the minglings checked all around the top man sat behind the wheel and belted himself in. On hearing the sound from the twin stack exhaust he suggested that a radio speaker would be better placed where the Tacho was......No card in it, he looked. He didn't assume because we were drive a monster we have the correct licence...he looked. No problem.

My in-law is a Cuadia captain (Malaga). I called into his office thismorning, for coffee and to see if he could help with a parking ticket, but took the opportunity putting to him in GREAT detail the argument re "overweight" Hmomes. They are well aware of my business and type of vehicles and my C1 licence and my wife's B licence........Opinion is NO PROBLEM, they are NOT HGV. 

Over the next few months, and if all thing fall into place, I am bringing 6/10 Hmomes down to Southern Spain for self drive hire here and in Morocco. As of this time we are assured that insurance is not an issue regarding size/weight of the two largest ones.........I have to my own (and it would seem Guadia/Traffico) satisfaction cleared the licence issue.

Finally I would just say that I am not for or against driving of RV's, Large Mhomes on car licences. I think that a large motorhome is far removed from a fully laden HGV. BUT, just wait for the flack and outcry if/when the grey area is cleared up and hundreds are forced to take HGV tests.....


----------



## 88808

Well said Ray.

I can't argue with anything you just said. But as far as the UK DVLA are concerned they want drivers to hold the correct licence. The law has changed and continues to change and it is only a matter of time.

From my position, having passed my car test in 1997 and driving around in a coach conversion I was told to get a C licence. Even being a professional bus driver at the time I could not continue to drive my bus with a D licence.

When I was stopped at the check point the bloke from VOSA was more interesting in talking "buses" with me because he had been an apprentice on my type of bus. They were clearly out that day to snare people using red diesel and were not out to hassle me on my "holiday".


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathon

Yes because its not a motorhome, it requires HGV licence to drive it

One of the strange Quirks my mother mentioned, fill a bus with people the most precious cargo possible and she can drive it. Take the seats out it becomes HGV and my Mother cannot drive it. Like many quirks dont make sense but their you go. I never claimed it all makes sense did I?

However when its a motorhome speed limiter is not required and it can be removed also it can be driven in outside lane of motorway and it then only requires a class 4 MOT

Shall we let the subject drop? we both agree that anyone wanting to drive a large motorhome should get some training and pass a test, the only difference is that you think its legaly required now and I think its not a legal requirement (at the moment)

ON a different subject slightly

Yet another anomoly appeared if you intend to carry a motorbike/moped then according to VOSA it becomes an HGV !! and is subject to HGV testing whethor its a motorhome or not !! Above 7.5 Tonnes Becomes HGV regardless !! requiring speed limiter and restricted lane use !!

3.5 Tonnes LGV and Requires Goods Vehicle Testing

Legally all motorhome/Horseboxes require GV testing 

BTW stick it on a rack and the situation is different again, but on most vehicles this will increase the overhang to illegal levels!!


----------



## 88808

I never for one minute suggested the licencing was sensible.

I held a full D licence and could not drive a transit minibus :lol: 

At least we all agree to disagree. 8)


----------



## 88724

BTW

When and if we meet up   lets just stick to the none contentious issues Like religion, politics, women drivers 8O 8O 8O 


:wink: 

George


----------



## 88808

politics 8O 

Your on the wrong thread :lol: :lol:


----------



## Detourer

And hey you lads.......George and Jonathan

Both your opinions are VALID...........and this thread/issue (just look at the "views") is an important one and one that could and probably will effect a large numbers of Mhome owners in the future.

Why not, as very articulate and informed individuals, do us all a favour and put your heads together and tackle this issue, again, with those in suits. Get some written replies from insurance co's etc etc. Ok, probably been done before ah George, but it would be nice for us all to see and call upon simple reply letters. If they don't respond I will take it as a conformation of an agreed question.

And, if you two do ever meet I will "second" Jonathan.......only because he is younger and therefore probably stronger.......


----------



## 88741

GeorgeTelford said:


> BTW
> 
> When and if we meet up   lets just stick to the none contentious issues Like religion, politics, women drivers 8O 8O 8O
> 
> :wink:
> 
> George


 [-X Sexist comments not allowed George, you should know better [-X


----------



## 88808

Putting the legal side of it all to bed :wink: 

We all seem to agree that it is important to ensure a driver is competent to drive the vehicle in question.

For a new driver there is a clear path as set out by the DVLA (regardless of wether it is law or not).

As the roads get busier and more complex the government has implemented driving tests and licences.

In the distant past anyone could drive anything and they did not have to sit a test or hold a licence. Over time basic testing was introduced.

Besides the actual driving of a vehicle there is alot of knowledge required. There are hundreds of road signs and road markings which have appeared. Different speed limits for different vehicles on different types of road.

As a teacher of car drivers I do not teach LGV PCV topics to learner car drivers. They learn how to drive a car, their licence as per the DVLA allows them to drive cars and small vans. If they wish to drive a larger vehicle, even if it is permitted by the exemption list, they are advised to have additional training.

Generally larger vehicles are operated by organisations such as charities who follow government recommendations in order to qualify for exemptions. A play bus for example could be driven on a B licence provided a certain amount of training is provided to each driver..

Having undergone LGV and PCV training and testing myself, I know how much more must be learned to pass the theory tests and the practical tests. The scope of the theory tests for larger vehicles covers different subjects to those found in the car theory test. It does cover legal aspects which are not relevant to motorhome drivers but most of the theory is relevant to driving a large motorhome.

It would be very alarming if a 17 year old passed their car test and took to the road in their parents 14 tonne RV that same day. That would just be lunacy.


----------



## 88724

Ha Helen

got YA 

the two best drivers I know are women, which is not to say I agree with the myth that women are better drivers, this came about due to lower premiums being offered to women drivers aha I hear you cry

but the simple truth is that Mile for mile driven women have more accidents, BUT due to the fact that women tend to drive at lower speed than men the damage to life and property tends to be far lower.

End result is while they have more accidents, the net cost is still lower. 

So the reality is that they are worse drivers (by number of accidents per mile driven) they are much less destructive.


Safer drivers hmmm yes you are much less likely to die in a vehicle driven by a female or be killed as a third party.


----------



## 88724

Hi all

The best that can be said legally, is that it doesnt appear to be ilegal to the extent that the law is a total mess and they are Highley unlikely to be able to make any charges stick. The problem they have (prosecution) is that courts will only apply the law as written (we can all see what they meant the law to say, but it doesnt actually say what they mean, Due to the Goods vehicle references in the law) although all the DVLA docs are careful to avoid using Goods Vehicle now. If they point you to the law, all over 7.5 tonnes are described and refered to as Heavy Goods Vehicles, Goods and burden for Trade and in connection with a business. all of which as not a thing to do with motorcaravans.

This mess is I believe why they dont even try to prosecute, which in turn means the insurance companies dont want to be the long winded expensive test case (but thats me guessing at their motives)

Initially DVLA will send out leaflets, which clearly state that its their interpretation of the LAW, when you ask for clarification of which statute they quote the Licencing law that Jonathon listed a few pages back, this is were it gets complex and boring, because that is an amendment to a previous law it doesnt completely supercede it, when you point out the fact that it refers to GOODS VEHICLES they say that a motor caravan is a goods vehicle. 

The earlier legislation refers to construction and use dept as the arbitors of what a vehicle is and they say that a motorcaravan is NOT a goods vehicle. THIS is the most important word to remember.

So the legislation doesnt cover motorcaravans (with regard to licencing) 

The only court case that ever came close the prosecution withdrew after 3 appearances and 2 Adjournments and awarded all costs to Travelworld citing lack of evidence, this was clearly not the case and if you ring and ask (CPS) you can tell they are uncomfortable talking about it, especially when you mention all the evidence that is still there signed statements etc which would be more than enough to convict if there was actually a law to cover it.

Every area you look at says its not HGV or commercial, Tachographs, speed limitors, lane restrictions, operators licences, HGV testing, even in the real world as you have found, insurance companies are happy and do not try to avoid paying out even on substantial claims, The local traffic police legal dept just say to send them on their way

The reality is not because they are fully legal, more that they cant find a way of proving its against the law.

I think we all know what they want the law to mean, its just that it doesnt conform to what they want it to mean. This means that it would not stad up in court.

Sorry if that repeats a bit had to do a job in between.

Ray what it all means is that no-one will stick their neck out and confirm in writing

George


----------



## 88808

> Initially DVLA will send out leaflets, which clearly state that its their interpretation of the LAW, when you ask for clarification of which statute they quote the Licencing law that Jonathon listed a few pages back, this is were it gets complex and boring, because that is an amendment to a previous law it doesnt completely supercede it


Unfortunately for a B licence holder it does specify what *can* be driven though.

The DVLA have reproduced word for word the SI in question.

Which brings us back to it doesnt say you can't.

The definition of a B licence is upto 3500KG, 8 passenger seats.


----------



## 88724

No we are not going there again, it was mostly an explaination 
of why you cant get any sense out of DVLA

not a cue to start again, BTW you are almost certainly right on B licence


----------



## 88808

GeorgeTelford said:


> not a cue to start again, BTW you are almost certainly right on B licence


Start up again :lol: :lol:

Who me?


----------



## what

hi all,

my license (categories a and e), which i obtained in 1989 when i was 17 (passed 1st time  ), says that i can drive ANY VEHICLE which is not in several mentioned categories such as motorbikes, road rollers etc. but it also says i need a further license to drive a heavy goods vehicle or a large passenger vehicle.

i know what jonathan is saying; these days you need a piece of paper to wipe you own ar*e legally, but the structure of our legal rights and courts system is based on the fact that we are free to do whatever we choose as long as it is not proscibed by law. if the law says i need a license to drive a motor vehicle then the license that i have allows me to drive any vehicle which is not expressly excepted by the wording i have just quoted.

otherwise the legal document that is my license has been made invalid without anyone telling me even though it says its valid till 2041.

i can't speak for anyone else's license as i know my girlfriend's says different (she only got it in 2001, 3rd time lucky(!)).

john.


----------



## artona

Hi John

It is a very grey area isn't it. The feeling on here is that you need the license. I was talking to a dealer the other day and he said a motorhome was not an HGV and so nobody has and probably will not get prosecuted for driving one over 7.5 ton. He was however trying to sell me a 10 ton vehicle and on my license it does state not exceeding 7.5 ton


stew


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## ALLYZ66

*7.5t or more*

HI,i have just converted a 7.5 ton box lorry into a camper,i took it to my local mot station who made it tacho exempt and mot'd it as a motorhome on there computer,next day i insured it with the reg number and the insurance company accepted it as a moterhome.....so im driving it with a car licence(my licence covers me up to c1+c1e)but what im saying is it only takes the mot station to change the use on there computer these days.


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## ALLYZ66

ALLYZ66 said:


> HI,i have just converted a 7.5 ton box lorry into a camper,i took it to my local mot station who made it tacho exempt and mot'd it as a motorhome on there computer,next day i insured it with the reg number and the insurance company accepted it as a moterhome.....so im driving it with a car licence(my licence covers me up to c1+c1e)but what im saying is it only takes the mot station to change the use on there computer these days.


i meant can the mot station change the usage?
why did my insurance company accept it?
and can i now convert it more?


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## Pudsey_Bear

I believe it will be tested as presented, if it walks like a duck etc, you now need to get the V5 changed to "motor caravan"


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## mjp9

Any updates on this thread?


Pudsey_Bear said:


> I believe it will be tested as presented, if it walks like a duck etc, you now need to get the V5 changed to "motor caravan"


Any updates on this thread?


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## Pudsey_Bear

mjp9 said:


> Any updates on this thread?
> 
> Any updates on this thread?



Hi and welcome.


Might be easier for you to ask a question it's 7 year old thread, something may have changed since then.


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## Webby1

Sorry @mjp9 but there are no updates on this 7 year old thread. 
But please what was it you wanted to know.................there are a lot of _real_ helpful people on here.


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## Pudsey_Bear

There's a echo in here.


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## JanHank

The thread is 17 years old Akshirley started Feb 7th 2005, I just don’t understand how newcomers find these ancient threads, I can’t even find old ones of my own.


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## Pudsey_Bear

People search google and find them, why does it matter so much.


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## JanHank

Pudsey_Bear said:


> People search google and find them, why does it matter so much.


Matters it doesn't, puzzling it is.


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