# Retro fit rear Lap belts - advice - take a look at the photo



## GAVLAD (Aug 10, 2014)

Hi

I've seen a motorhome which has everything that we want and is within budget.
Trouble is, according to the sales brochure, the habitation circular lounge did not come fitted with seat belts.
the make & model is Dethleffs 9800 XXL.

They did a dinette model which has travelling seats and seat belts factory fit and the circular model which didn't.

The MH I'm now looking at is a circular model which comes with rear lap belts fitted. I'm therefore suspecting that these were fitted by the owner retrospectively.

However, looking at the photo, underneath the seat cushion and on the wood seat base, there are stickers (white circles with picture of person sitting).
Do these sticker mean that these seats are not travelling seats/not to be used whilst the vehicle is being driven?

Also, after speaking with Britax who are the manufacturer of our two child car seats, (both designed to fit ISOFIX and 3 Point lap belts) they've informed me that a car child seat must not be secured with a lap belt.

Therefore, does anyone know whether there are anchor points available to fit a 3 point seat belt in this motorhome?
Are there any companies who can install them if the MH doesn't have any and if so, would these pass MOT requirements?

I'm presuming that if the stickers mean that they are not designed/intended for use when travelling and someone has fit the lap belts, their MOT tester has not picked up on this?

I've emailed Dethleffs, but suspect it's gone to Germany, so unsure on how quickly they will reply.

Grateful for your comments, as the MH is on Ebay and the advert closes Friday evening.
thanks!


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## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

Looking at the layout, I'm pretty sure you're stuck with what you've got there.

I think you would only be able to fit them on the rear facing seats, but these back against the cab, so wouldn't be practical.

I believe there is of course no legislation compelling the fitting of seatbelts in the rear of a motorhome.

This van is I think designed for a couple, who may have friends or relations joining them on site.


Andrew


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## IanA (Oct 30, 2010)

Looking at your photo, the stickers do imply that they aren't travel seats. I have a Swift Kontiki with side-facing seats which shouldn't be fitted with any sort of seatbelt, but the dealer indicated that they used to retrofit some lap belts by drilling through the floor and plating both sides. They stopped doing this when the law changed in 2006 as they would be liable for any accidents involving the seats.

I think you should regard any lap belts as being of doubtful origin - unless the dealer can provide a suitable certificate indicating that they comply with the Construction & Use regs that deal with seatbelt mountings.

It does sound like you may have to pass on this MH, which is a shame as it looks lovely.

With ours we only take the grandchildren in this country in another vehicle, which is a shame as they miss out on the European travel. I can't afford to change just for them, unfortunately.


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## IanA (Oct 30, 2010)

androidGB said:


> Looking at the layout, I'm pretty sure you're stuck with what you've got there.
> 
> I think you would only be able to fit them on the rear facing seats, but these back against the cab, so wouldn't be practical.
> 
> ...


Andrew, there was a change in the law in 2006, which means that all passengers should have access to a seatbelt - any pre-2006 vehicle (like mine) can continue without belts, but there is a moral duty on me to keep my passengers safe, and a legal duty in that a police officer can declare that unbelted passengers are an insecure load and he can demand that they leave the vehicle, and prosecute me for the load.

This has come up before on the forum, so can be found under the search - probably under rear seatbelts - loads of answers on it.


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## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

Thanks Ian, I wasn't aware of that.

I thought it was rather like classic cars, in as much as if they were never fitted with seat belts there is no requirement to fit them.

Does that mean then, that all drivers of such vehicles can be prosecuted in the manner in which you describe?

Andrew


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

There is NO law that requires the retro fitting of seat belts.

The rules are that "designated front facing seats" MUST be fitted with seatbelts from new. 

IF seat belts are fitted then they must, by law, be used. If there are no seat belts fitted then clearly you cannot use them.

If its post 2006 then you can only carry passengers in those seats equipped with seat belts (that meet type approval, which basically means were fitted from new by the vehicle manufacturer) 

I fear you need to find a different vehicle, sorry !!


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## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

> If its post 2006 then you can only carry passengers in those seats equipped with seat belts (that meet type approval, which basically means were fitted from new by the vehicle manufacturer)
> I fear you need to find a different vehicle, sorry !!


As I understand it the law did not actually change in 2006 and it remains that if seat belts are fitted then they must be used but if they are not fitted then passengers may still be carried in the rear of a motorhome.

JohnW


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

I had a 56 reg Elddis which had 2 lapbelts for side facing passengers. They were illegal from 2007 and Elddis built the same motorhome but described it as a 2 berth instead of a 4 berth when the lap belts were fitted. So it appears that something changed around then.

It is normal to have the stickers fitted where there are passenger seats with belts. There could even be lap belts hidden away behind the seats (I used to tuck mine away as they were never used and just got in the way).

Like others, I am doubtful about a retrofit but it appears that when the van was built, it was legal to carry passengers without having seatbelts, then it still is today. the only question is are you happy to carry your nearest and dearest in the back without the security of being strapped in?


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## GAVLAD (Aug 10, 2014)

Thanks for all of your replies.

After doing some research, I've found that Britax make a child seat which is fitted to the vehicle seat via a lap belt. This can also be used to take onboard an aircraft which has lap belt seat belts as well.

I was aware that there was some change in the law a while back, as I retro fitted some rear seat belts into a VW Campervan (Baywindow) shortly afterwards. From what I gathered at the time, if a vehicle was not fitted with rear seat belts by the factory, you could still carry passengers but needed to be aware of potential injury in the event of an accident.
vehicles fitted with seat belts - passengers must wear a belt where fitted.
Regarding the retro fit of seat belts to the Baywindow, it had factory fit seat belt anchor points already in it. It was then just a case of buying the seat belt kit from Just kampers and fitting it.
All legal and no issues regarding MOT inspection.

Going back to this Dethleffs, on this model, they offer two layouts - a dinette with two forward, two rear facing seats - fitted with seat belts, and this circular lounge fitted with no belts.
Like 747 has just mentioned, they may have fit lap belts but not advertised the fact, or one of the owners may have fitted them afterwards.
What I'm trying to establish is although this being the circular lounge model with no factory belts fitted, does it still have fitted anchor points fitted already?
Maybe, if the anchor points were already fit and then Dethleffs added the furniture/layout to the chassis, there may be the opportunity of changing these lap belts to 3 point seat belts.

I have sent enquiry emails to Dethleffs to both the UK email address on their website and to service [email protected] but both have bounced back as undelivered.
I even phoned Dethleffs but was told that I needed the service centre and there was nobody available, so drew a blank there too.

So, if anyone out there owns a Dethleffs Globetrotter 9800 XXL, please will you lift the cushions and have a look at the seat belt anchor point locations and let me know?


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Did you ever mention what year the van was? Maybe I missed it.

Also, how many berths is it .... officially. If you remove 2 from that figure then you know how many passengers you can carry (depending on what year it is). From 2007 it appears that the number of berths equals the number of 3 point seatbelts fitted.


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## GAVLAD (Aug 10, 2014)

Hi 747

It's a 2007 model - six berth


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Just because it's a 6 berth it may not have designated seating for 6!!

I am pretty sure that in2006 (we are talking about date of first registration not date of manufacture) the law changed and vehicles had to have "designated travel seats" and those seats had to be equipped with 3 point seat belts. That's why in modern MH specs you see the number of travel seats listed. 

I think you are in a grey area here and you need to get clear unequivocal information so you can make an informed decision before parting with a lot of money.

If it's a six berth I would check the available payload ( by means of a current weighbridge ticket) as well. Many "6" berth MH's simply don't have enough payload to carry more than 2 or 3 people even if they have seat belts for more.

Check, check and check again before committing to this purchase.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

GAVLAD said:


> Hi 747
> 
> It's a 2007 model - six berth


It's a borderline case then. 8O

It is possible that the van was constructed during 2006 and therefore built to the legal requirement at the time. By the time it was shipped, displayed at a Dealers, bought then registered.

As Mr Plodd has said ....... do your homework diligently.


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## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

There is an ad on Caraworld.de for what appears to be an identical van and it says seats with belts =4


Andrew


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## philoaks (Sep 2, 2008)

Back in the 1990's we bought a rear lounge MH and I fitted lapbelts in the back to restrain child seats.

From a safety point of view it was probably not a good move as, although I used spreader plates, at the end of the day the wooden floor was probably nowhere near strong enough to take the forces that may have been produced had we been involved in a crash.

Biggest problem, and the reason that we kept the van for less than a year, was the fact that travelling with young children in the back of 6-7m van when you are sat in the front, makes conversation virtually impossible and the OH spent half her life moving from front to rear to deal with dropped toys/brotherly arguments etc. etc.

It's your decision of course but my advice would be to find a more family friendly layout.


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## mikebeaches (Oct 18, 2008)

Mrplodd said:


> I am pretty sure that in2006 (we are talking about date of first registration not date of manufacture) the law changed and vehicles had to have "designated travel seats" and those seats had to be equipped with 3 point seat belts. That's why in modern MH specs you see the number of travel seats listed.


I'd just challenge the assertion that designated travel seats 'must have 3-point seat belts'.

I have a 2010 Chausson Flash S2 which has 4 designated travel seats - there's a half dinette with the two rear travel seats. The nearside seat is fitted with a three-point belt, but the second rear seat is only fitted with a lap belt.

I've owned the vehicle from new and know for a fact that all Flash S2s are exactly the same in that respect - the reason is that the design does not provide a suitable mounting for a 3-point belt for the forth travel seat. The Flash S2s were manufactured for two years only - 2010 & 2011.

Mike


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

At the NEC show there were several new models with only lap belts on some seats.
There was also one (can't remember which) that had a side facing seat fitted with a lap belt AND it was marked with a "designated travel seat" sticker


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## Ozzyjohn (Sep 3, 2007)

Hi,

I've seen a number of these - the circular table models are only suitable for two travelling (both in the cab). The stickers in the OP's picture indicate that they are NOT designated as travel seats.

Our 9800XXL (a 2006, but later years are the same in this respect) has the dinette layout with a total (including the cab) of 6 x 3pt seatbelts. Our dinette seats have similar stickers, but without the cross through them - so indicating that ours are designated travel seats. 

I've always thought the circular table model was an "odd" layout - I can see the appeal of the lounging space for the well heeled couple travelling alone - but they still get the huge overcab bed (as well as the fixed double at the rear). Still people must like them - I've seen more of that layout than I have ones like ours. 

Great vans, but not very common (I can live with that) 


Regards,
John


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## Ozzyjohn (Sep 3, 2007)

Somewhere, I have a 2007 brochure - and I'm confident that that there is no mention of lap belts even as an option on the 9800XXL. 

I can dig it out if required.


Regards,
John


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

Our Previous Frankia had 4 belted seats.

But it had 8 Designated seats inc the driver!

TM


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Ozzyjohn said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've seen a number of these - the circular table models are only suitable for two travelling (both in the cab). The stickers in the OP's picture indicate that they are NOT designated as travel seats.
> 
> ...


So the stickers have a red diagonal line through them then?

Well that confirms the worst scenario methinks.

8O


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## Ozzyjohn (Sep 3, 2007)

747 said:


> So the stickers have a red diagonal line through them then?
> 
> Well that confirms the worst scenario methinks.
> 
> 8O


Look closely (for once, click to enlarge actually works) at the OPs picture - there is a cross through the picture on each sticker. Our stickers are the same but for one (crucial) difference - they have no cross.

There is substantial metalwork underneath the seat and in the double floor space of our dinette model to provide a level of support for the seatbelts. It "might" be possible to retrofit this (or something equal to it) but you would still need to butcher the seat bases to get somewhere to put your legs if you wanted to be either forward or rearward facing. Sitting sideways is (in my experience) pretty uncomfortable and much less safe, so not something I would suggest.

Regards,
John


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

The problem with side to side seats is well researched in army vehicles 

On impact the biggest cause of serious injury is from impact of heads, in a side ways motion

We changed our van when more grandkids arrived to a 5 belted van

No chance of taking chances with our most precious cargo

Adults may choose to risk themselves

Kids, always protect

Aldra


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Thanks for the reply John, I missed the red line in the stickers.  

My present van and last one had the stickers (without the red line) and I find it a bit unusual for the manufacturer to fit those particular stickers as I have never seen them before. Maybe the UK is not the only Nanny State. :lol:


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## GAVLAD (Aug 10, 2014)

Well folks, the purchase is definitely off regardless of rear seat belts.
Just had the results from a HPI check and vehicle is on the risk security register and it also has outstanding finance.
Finance company have said I can't pay them their balance as they won't deal with me and have also suggested I don't buy this vehicle at this time. Read into that what you will.
Also found out that the vehicle has no insurance, so don't know how they were going to test drive it with me. Not having any insurance on a £45k vehicle is enough to ring alarm bells.
Thank you all for your comments with regards to the rear seat belt issues - at least I know going forward for my next choice of MH.


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