# Payload. My van has put on weight!



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Been to the weigh bridge this afternoon and something odd is going on.

We seemed to have gained 160KG on the back axle since 2008 when we first got weighed. back then I did all the maths and put on a rack and scooter. All the info is in this thread. http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/11...ter-rack-update-info-required.html#post355340

We could do it just within the limits. Today we are 160KG heavier on the back axle on the same weigh bridge. The only additional weight since 2008 is the tow bar and rack but I cannot believe it would add up to 160KG.

We did 4 years ago have a new Alko rear axle fitted and I think Alko said it was capable of taking more weight that the original one. I can only assume as a result its heavier than the old one.

The dilemma I now have is we want to get a new scooter but I have even less weight to play with than I thought I had.

As it stands I could put on a new 100KG bike and just be within the limits but this is without putting any other stuff in the van so we would almost certainly be over weight.

Weight today came out at

Rear 1600kg (max 1750kg)
Front 1580kg (max 1650kg)
Total weight 3180KG (max 3400KG)

so we only have 220KG to play with which is less than I thought.

I checked with the garage and the axle they fitted they think should be rated to either 1900 or 2000KG.

I suspect I am going to need to re-plate the van to 3850KG via SV Tech if this is possible to be really safe as we are going to be pushing it otherwise. I also dont understand why the max weight is just 3400 and not 3500KG.

Any thoughts, suggestions?


----------



## PF13 (Aug 2, 2013)

Stupid question but were all your fresh and waste tanks at the same levels of fill as in 2008?

Also Tow bar can be very heavy and will contribute at least some of the weight.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Replate itBarry

We replated to 3700

Paper exercise

Fitted air suspension

3850

Fitted 112 rated tyres on the rear wheels

So 2240 on the back

Still overall weight 3850
But Im thinking of getting rid of the hound from hell>

That saves 45 Kls
And Albert needs to lose weight:surprise:

Me, I'm just perfect0
Aldra


----------



## EJB (Aug 25, 2007)

Another thought is that weigh bridges tend to have a few percent margin of error.....it can make a big difference!
My 2002 Tracker is 3400KG. 
Many older vehicles were rated (seemingly randomly) at 3000 to 3500 whereas nowadays they try and rate them all at 3500 as a valid selling point:wink2:


----------



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks

There was no water in it and not much diesel!!

Its really odd.

Anyway I just got off the phone to Gareth at SVTech who was extremely helpful. Really knew his stuff.

Reckons we can replate to 3850KG as long as the load rating on the rear tyre is 109. I think it needs two rear tyres anyway.

The new rear axle plate should then be 2000KG which after todays weigh in will give me 400kg to play with on the rear. Well less as I will be loading stuff in the front to compensate but I would say it would be more than enough to stick a Honda PCX 125 on the back at 124kg.

Still dont know where the extra 160KG on the rear has come from. Gareth doubted it would be the new axle weighing more than the old one.

We have an official weighbridge certificate from the Swiss border from 2009. Van was full of diesel, water, 3 crates of beer, folding bike and scooter on the back and it still only weighed 3440kg, just 260kg more than it did today with nothing in it! Odd.


----------



## HarryTheHymer (May 1, 2005)

Our last van was 3400Kg on Fiat chassis with 15" wheels.

SV Tech said they could uprate to 3700Kg with air suspension on rear axle - the 15" wheels were the limiting factor. 

If you have 15" wheels then I fear you might not be able to go higher than 3700Kg.


----------



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

HarryTheHymer said:


> Our last van was 3400Kg on Fiat chassis with 15" wheels.
> 
> SV Tech said they could uprate to 3700Kg with air suspension on rear axle - the 15" wheels were the limiting factor.
> 
> If you have 15" wheels then I fear you might not be able to go higher than 3700Kg.


Actually now you mention it he might have said 3700kg. Thats fine. As long as I can legally go up to 2000KG on the rear axle thats more than enough for what I need or even 1900 really.


----------



## HarryTheHymer (May 1, 2005)

Our last van was 3400Kg on Fiat chassis with 15" wheels.

SV Tech said they could uprate to 3700Kg with air suspension on rear axle - the 15" wheels were the limiting factor. 

If you have 15" wheels then I fear you might not be able to go higher than 3700Kg.

PS. Must type quicker - see you've already contacted SVTech


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Gareth at SVTech 

Is great
If he says you can

You can

Aldra


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

barryd said:


> Weight today came out at
> 
> Rear 1600kg (max 1750kg)
> Front 1580kg (max 1650kg)
> ...


Perhaps because if you loaded to maximum weight on each axle you would only be at 3400kg maximum weight. One or both of the axles would be over their limit if you loaded to 3500kg. It is quite generous to have a maximum weight which is the sum of the individual axle limits.


----------



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

rayc said:


> Perhaps because if you loaded to maximum weight on each axle you would only be at 3400kg maximum weight. One or both of the axles would be over their limit if you loaded to 3500kg. It is quite generous to have a maximum weight which is the sum of the individual axle limits.


Oh yes. Doh. Bit obvious really.

Mrs D is not going to be happy when I tell her I have to spend £300+, probably two new tyres and a new scooter (well she knew about the scooter).

I think its the best decision though as I suspect we have often been overweight recently although probably not by much.


----------



## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Weighbridges are a great leveller :grin2::grin2:

According to Gareth, we can go from 5990kg to 6400kg as a paper excercise, the rear axle is rated at 5.6 tonnes but only at 4.3 tonnes on our present plate. 

It is used on the 814D which is a 7.5 tonne gross, but with 17.5" wheels and bigger brakes.

I went up to 225's on the tyres as a set of seven, better life and more comfortable ride, but we are on 121 load rating at the back and 118 on the fronts.

Peter


----------



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

barryd said:


> Oh yes. Doh. Bit obvious really.
> 
> Mrs D is not going to be happy when I tell her I have to spend £300+, probably two new tyres and a new scooter (well she knew about the scooter).
> 
> I think its the best decision though as I suspect we have often been overweight recently although probably not by much.


Barry

Before you spend £300 just check with the base vehicle manufacturer, and Swift, what was the design weight - it may have been registered at a lower rate.

Our N+B on Ducato was easy to go from 3500 to 3850, which was the design weight - I just asked N+B for another plate which was FOC.

(Sorry if you ave read this when I have posted before)

Geoff


----------



## ChrisandJohn (Feb 3, 2008)

Are you sure those birds aren't nesting on top?
:smile2:


Chris


----------



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> Barry
> 
> Before you spend £300 just check with the base vehicle manufacturer, and Swift, what was the design weight - it may have been registered at a lower rate.
> 
> ...


Thanks Geoff. Could give it a go. The original Peugeot plate actually says 3200KG max. Its the Swift one that says 3400 presumably after its been put on an Alko Chassis this is what happens. I know Pusser had the same model (think it was him) and it was 3850KG. Worth a try.


----------



## emmbeedee (Oct 31, 2008)

*NO "per cent" error on weighbridges!*

:surprise::surprise:


EJB said:


> Another thought is that weigh bridges tend to have a few percent margin of error.....it can make a big difference!
> My 2002 Tracker is 3400KG.
> Many older vehicles were rated (seemingly randomly) at 3000 to 3500 whereas nowadays they try and rate them all at 3500 as a valid selling point:wink2:


*NO *per cent margin of error on weighbridges, or any other weighing machine come to that. Do you think your local butcher would get away with a few per cent error?
Checks on weighing machines are the oldest form of consumer protection & apply to weighbridges too. You can see the latest calibration on the bridge if you have doubts.
Many years have passed since I was in the weighing machine business, but last time I checked the permissible error on the least accurate 40 tonne weighbridge was 10 kgs.
If you doubt the accuracy of a weighbridge you need one of these:
http://tinyurl.com/ocat79r


----------



## EJB (Aug 25, 2007)

I stand corrected !!!!!:surprise::frown2::wink2:


"Many years have passed since I was in the weighing machine business,"......me too!


----------



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Actually I asked about the accuracy and the chap at the weight bridge said 20KG.


----------



## Steve928 (Jun 24, 2013)

I think that may relate more to the load cells reading in 20kg increments.
I've weighed my vans a few times and my car+ trailer a lot more and the figure is always divisible by 20.


----------



## daffodil (Aug 7, 2014)

HarryTheHymer said:


> Our last van was 3400Kg on Fiat chassis with 15" wheels.
> 
> SV Tech said they could uprate to 3700Kg with air suspension on rear axle - the 15" wheels were the limiting factor.
> 
> If you have 15" wheels then I fear you might not be able to go higher than 3700Kg.


This post has brought up a point for me as a relative newbie

My van, has cargospeed (made in Serbia )Tigar 215/75/16 all season tyres virtually new .The spare is brand new, my question is if I go overweight accidentally from the 3500 kgs does the extra size tyre keep me safe as far as safety is concerned ,Not that I want to go overweight deliberately


----------



## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Our scrappie has different ranges of weighing, they start at something quite low and go up to 40 tonnes or so.

The accuracy per section varies, on the 40 tonne scale they are looking at 40kg tolerance, which if it is +- 20kgs then that is +-0.05 %

It is a mechanical weighbridge made by Avery.

Peter


----------



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

listerdiesel said:


> Our scrappie has different ranges of weighing, they start at something quite low and go up to 40 tonnes or so.
> 
> The accuracy per section varies, on the 40 tonne scale they are looking at 40kg tolerance, which if it is +- 20kgs then that is +-0.05 %
> 
> ...


Sounds similar to the one I use at Farmway Peter. The truck that was on before me was massive.

They used to weigh me for free and just write it on a piece of paper. Charged me £7.50 yesterday but i did get 3 print outs!


----------



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

emmbeedee said:


> :surprise::surprise:
> 
> *NO *per cent margin of error on weighbridges, or any other weighing machine come to that. Do you think your local butcher would get away with a few per cent error?
> Checks on weighing machines are the oldest form of consumer protection & apply to weighbridges too. You can see the latest calibration on the bridge if you have doubts.
> ...


Do they re-calibrate for temperature and pressure each day or do they just zero the needle on the scale?

Geoff


----------



## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Steve928 said:


> I think that may relate more to the load cells reading in 20kg increments.
> I've weighed my vans a few times and my car+ trailer a lot more and the figure is always divisible by 20.


Quite correct. The last one I installed was the same.


----------



## mgdavid (Nov 27, 2014)

daffodil said:


> This post has brought up a point for me as a relative newbie
> 
> My van, has cargospeed (made in Serbia )Tigar 215/75/16 all season tyres virtually new .The spare is brand new, my question is if I go overweight accidentally from the 3500 kgs does the extra size tyre keep me safe as far as safety is concerned ,Not that I want to go overweight deliberately


It has very little to do with size and everything to do with Load Rating (which is also on the sidewall of the tyres).
http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/tyre-reader


----------



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

mgdavid said:


> It has very little to do with size and everything to do with Load Rating (which is also on the sidewall of the tyres).
> http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/tyre-reader


Thats really useful that link thanks. I often wonder what all that gubbings on the side of the tyre means and now I have to check my load rating I know where to look.


----------



## daffodil (Aug 7, 2014)

mgdavid said:


> It has very little to do with size and everything to do with Load Rating (which is also on the sidewall of the tyres).
> http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/tyre-reader


Thanks for the Link

I thought it was V for velocity which it is so I am capable of doing 150 I wish the Daff was

and I can go up to 1150 kgs

but that has clarified it very well,

Sorry to appear so thick its not easy being this dumb 
:crying:


----------



## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

I use this one:

http://www.blackcircles.com/general/load-rating

We have 121 rating on the four rears and 118 rating on the two fronts, that gives us a theoretical load rating of 8440 kg, but in practice our max weight is 5990kg, possibly uprateable to 6400kg by SVTech.

Peter


----------



## HarryTheHymer (May 1, 2005)

mgdavid said:


> It has very little to do with size and everything to do with Load Rating (which is also on the sidewall of the tyres).
> http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/tyre-reader


I don't think it's "everything" to do with load rating of tyres. Other factors to consider are adequate brakes, axle, tyres and suspension for the additional load.

Furthermore, additional load behind the back axle can lighten the front axle and reduce the effectiveness of steering and adhesion. SVTech apply a formula to check against over-lightening of the front axle.

In answer to Daffy's original question - you should keep within the axle loadings for your 3500Kg van (ie. the combined actual axle loads should not exceed 3500Kg and each axle should not exceed the max axle loads as shown on your weight plate). If you were slightly overloaded and involved in an accident, the consequences could be severe.


----------



## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Neither of these links works for me :-(


----------



## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

But I've found my way to the Michelin info


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

EJB said:


> Another thought is that weigh bridges tend to have a few percent margin of error.....it can make a big difference!
> My 2002 Tracker is 3400KG.
> Many older vehicles were rated (seemingly randomly) at 3000 to 3500 whereas nowadays they try and rate them all at 3500 as a valid selling point:wink2:


Very true, most weigh bridges will weigh up to 44+ tons, 160kg is a small percentage.

The allowance is +/- 50kg multiplied by the number of plates used for weighing.

"Single plate weighbridges
This equipment comprises a single weighing plate connected to an indicating mechanism. Vehicles are weighed whilst stationary.

If a single plate weighbridge is to be used for separately weighing axles and bogies or to summate those results to produce the gross/train weight of the vehicle, the weighbridge must have been approved for that purpose by an Inspector of Weights and Measures. The authorised officer must be aware of any particular requirements relating to such use as determined by the Inspector of Weights and Measures.

Prior to weighing on a single plate weighbridge, care should be taken to ensure that the weighbridge plate is not binding against the surround.

When weighing on a single plate weighbridge, the following specific requirements must be observed:

all of the tyres on the axle(s) being weighed must be wholly on the plate
where the whole of the vehicle is not being weighed and the vehicle is fitted with compensating axles, care must be taken to weigh the compensating axles together as one unit
where only part of the vehicle is being weighed and:
the driver of a vehicle fitted with a manual gearbox must be instructed to comply with the following sequence: the parking brake applied; engine switched off; a low gear engaged; and all brakes released
the driver of a vehicle fitted with an automatic or semi-automatic gearbox must comply with a similar, suitable and safe sequence
If a single plate weighbridge has been used to weigh individual axles or bogies or to add up those results to produce the gross/train weight of a vehicle, the accuracy limit is +/- 50 kgs per axle or as specified for that weighbridge by a Inspector of Weights and Measures.

3.3 Multi-plate weighbridges
This equipment typically comprises two or more independent static weighing plates connected to a single console. Vehicles are weighed whilst stationary.

Prior to weighing on a multi-plate, care should be taken to ensure that the weighbridge plates are not binding against the plate housings or other components of the weighing equipment.

The following specific requirements must also be observed:

all of the tyres on the axle(s) being weighed must be wholly on the weighbridge
when weighing vehicles fitted with compensating axles, care must be taken to weigh the compensating axles together as one unit on the same plate
the driver of a vehicle fitted with a manual gearbox must be instructed to comply with the following sequence; the parking brake applied; engine switched off; a low gear engaged; and all brakes released
the driver of a vehicle fitted with an automatic or semi-automatic gearbox must comply with a similar, suitable and safe sequence
The accuracy limit for gross or train weights of a multi-plate weighbridge is +/- 50kg multiplied by the number of plates used for the weighing. Where an axle or group of axles is weighed on the same plate the accuracy limit is +/- 100kg.

The equipment can also be used to weigh vehicles longer than the total length of the weighbridge provided it has been approved for that purpose by a Inspector of Weights and Measures. The authorised officer must be aware of any particular requirements or limitations relating to such use as determined by an Inspector of Weights and Measures."


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

And of course if you remained in the van this time but not last


----------



## mgdavid (Nov 27, 2014)

HarryTheHymer said:


> I don't think it's "everything" to do with load rating of tyres. ........


it is, if you refer to Daffy's Q that I was responding to. For clarity, it was:
'does the extra size tyre keep me safe?'.
While all the other points you raise are pertinent to a grossly overweight situation, Daffy was asking about accidentally going a bit overweight. There are of course reasonable tolerances and safety margins applied by the manufacturers when setting axle loadings ( and tyre loadings for that matter).


----------



## The-Cookies (Nov 28, 2010)

easy answer to this.

last time over in Europe you forgot to unload a couple of sangattes.

john


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Gosh

What a load of responses

And there was I thinking

You go onto the weigh bridge

Tou take three weights

You check them against your maximum weights on all axles

And your overall weight allowance

Which you have had verified by either the plate on the van or an upgrade 

By SVTec
And there you go

How wrong could I be!

Aldra


----------



## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

I've always weighed at the free weighbridge St Belfast docks. And I've always rolled slowly across, getting the front axle weight displayed on the screen followed later by the weight of the rear. I've never parked, as Kev's quoted instructions above indicate. 

Have I being doing it wrong all this time?!


----------



## emmbeedee (Oct 31, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Very true, most weigh bridges will weigh up to 44+ tons, 160kg is a small percentage.
> 
> The allowance is +/- 50kg multiplied by the number of plates used for weighing.
> 
> ...


----------



## emmbeedee (Oct 31, 2008)

*Weighbridge operator.*



nicholsong said:


> Do they re-calibrate for temperature and pressure each day or do they just zero the needle on the scale?
> 
> Geoff


The weighbridge operator has to have a certificate of competence & pass a test, conducted by Weights & Measures, in order to operate it correctly. I don't think temperature & pressure variations would have enough effect to be a problem. Water can be a problem, as the "Bottom Works" can "float". There are other things to be concerned about also, see here:

http://tinyurl.com/klo7pab

Re-calibration is normally carried out annually, but must be done if any work is carried out or any parts are replaced.


----------



## emmbeedee (Oct 31, 2008)

JWW said:


> I've always weighed at the free weighbridge St Belfast docks. And I've always rolled slowly across, getting the front axle weight displayed on the screen followed later by the weight of the rear. I've never parked, as Kev's quoted instructions above indicate.
> 
> Have I being doing it wrong all this time?!


Probably not, some weighbridges do require you to drive over slowly. I have seen 5 MPH quoted. Kev's instructions are for a different type, what you could probably refer to as the standard type.


----------

