# Timberland Motorhomes - A statement from the Proprietor



## Timberlands (Jun 15, 2010)

A statement by Kevin Cain, owner of Timberland Motorhomes.

I have written this statement of truth in response to yesterday's postings by northernlad10 who claims 'as a supplier' to have lost some money as a consequence of Timberland Motorhomes going into administration.

I believe northernlad10 to be a competing trader who made the posts maliciously in a vain attempt to take advantage of our situation.

Timberland Motorhomes was started by me in 1999 with what I remember was a whole £500.

Over the past 10 years we have manufactured a brand that is much sought-after and regarded as one of the top vehicles of its type in the market. Our vehicles have won a number of Caravan Club awards.

We have always prided ourselves on customer care, but I will admit that over the past 12 months due to pressure from our bank we have turned ourselves into a small B……..H……. looking more often at numbers rather than our customers.

I have never been in business just for the money. I have had many years of dealing with nice customers, many of whom have become friends and others I regard as family.

I love my job and will say that other than this year I have woken up every day with a smile looking forward to a day's work. It is known that some people work to live. I feel I live to work and in fact worry about the inevitable day I will retire.

So, to the matter in hand…

TRUE: The fact is that following a banking system-created recession the property the company owned had fallen in value.

TRUE: As a result our bankers wished to restructure the company facilities.

TRUE: The bank wished to increase the interest rate on my overdraft and mortgage from 1.875% to 5%.

TRUE: The bank also wanted to charge me a 1.5% set-up fee for the overdraft and mortgage which I already had in place.

TRUE: The bank also wanted to charge me a £1,000 per calendar month for a management fee just to look at my account.

In a nutshell, with the charges the bank wanted to impose on us it meant the company would be giving the bank a further £105,000 more profit per year. 
I found this to be a bitter pill to swallow. As we all know it would have been a cost that in one way or other would have hurt the company, which we all know is the customer.

TRUE: As a result of the above and the bank imposing other demands in addition which the company could not agree to at the end of the discussions the bank demanded repayment of in excess of £2million.

Even though we tried to look for other funders in today's market we found that to be an impossible task.

We therefore were presented with two options.

One option was to let my company, which I love and have worked so hard for, go into liquidation.

•	This would have cost 33 jobs in total

•	All Timberland customers would have lost their warranties

•	All suppliers would have lost even more money

•	The sale value of the Timberland brand would have been damaged

The second option was to invest personal funds in buying back Timberland Motorhomes from the Administrator.

•	This has saved 22 jobs

•	Saved all customers warranties

•	Suppliers if they choose can go forward and earn money from Timberland Motorhomes as they have done over the past 10 years

•	And the good name and reputation of Timberland can go forward with the knowledge of being one of the biggest motorhome dealers, if not always the best

As for northernlad10 claiming to be a supplier of Timberland and losing tens of thousands of pounds this is quite untrue.

If he had been professional and revealed his identity I would have been quite prepared to publish the amount he may have lost.

Or is it a case simply of another motorhome dealer trying to benefit from this unfortunate situation we find ourselves in because of a banking system-created recession?

I would like to reassure customers that Woodland Motorhomes Limited trading as Timberland Motorhomes that nothing has changed and we are now a stronger company.

All warranties on Timberland, Adria, Burstner, Autocruise and Auto-Trail will be honoured as will all warranties on any pre-owned units we have sold - and looked after in the same professional manner as we have always done.

All new customers of Timberland Motorhomes will receive the same high level of customer care that they should expect and deserve.

We are here to stay and if you want proof of our existence visit our stand at the Midsummer Great Escape at Loughborough this weekend.

Northernlad10 set out to hurt Timberland Motorhomes with false statements and slander.

My name is Kevin Cain and I am proud to say who I am. As for the 'rogue,' I have been called worse (mainly by my wife), but sticks and stone and all…

At no point have we benefitted from anyone's loss, but have in fact saved England from losing an English manufacturer.

If any member of MotorhomeFacts wishes to know more, my e-mail address is [email protected]

Kind regards,

Kevin Cain
Proprietor
Timberland Motorhomes


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

Can't say it plainer than that Kevin. Respect.

I have no connection with this company.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Good luck for the future Kevin, Alan.


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## MyGalSal (Dec 8, 2008)

Thank you for your candour. I regret you you were forced into such a position.
Sal


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

I hope your business goes from strength to strength as You deserve to succeed with such an honest statement as you have just presented.
You are one cool dude man and I wish you all the luck in the world. :wink:


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## Carl_n_Flo (May 10, 2005)

Well, that's to the point!!!!!

Shall be see if northernlad10 comes back with any further 'message'?

Good luck Kevin - I hope you manage to pull out of the mire and continue in the business you enjoy...
Carl


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Thank you for this disclosure.
I wish you and your comapnay well.

It is a pity that the Bankers and politicians that we all ay for are not as forthcomming.

Dave p


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Timberland*

Thank you for your informative posting.

Banks are not charities - I am not having a go at the opening poster or anyone else. Banks lend money and have the right to ask for that back at any time. Equally, when "we" lend money to the banks by depositing savings, "we" can ask for the repayment of "our" money.

I hope that you will form some strong alliances with your customers through the forum.

The majority of us present a fair and balanced opinion, even though the point I make above may not be to many people's liking.

Russell

Edit - to present another balanced view, I am well aware that some banks have been very well supported by the tax payer through the banking crisis but others such as Barclays, HSBC and Standard Chartered have not, as far as I am aware, received any direct subsudy.


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## dawnwynne (Nov 14, 2009)

Kevin,

What a breath of fresh air....good luck with the future, it sounds like it's been a hard year let's hope it's upwards and onwards from here!


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## Motorhome-Madness (Jun 15, 2010)

Well what can I say about Mr Cain’s response to recent postings on this forum……????

I have been a customer of Timberland Motorhomes for a number of years now. I have purchased two vans from them over the last seven years. During this time I have often seen Mr Cain and his team at the various shows around the country which is rare in many companies to be able to talk to the ‘Top Man’. 

They have always had time for a chat and the kettle is always on, albeit that you sometimes have to make it yourself….!!!!!

But like many of you, I was worried when I saw the news that they were going under, I thought who is going to be able to fix my van should anything go wrong.

Whilst my van is long out of warranty now, whenever any problems have occurred Timberland (should I say Lee) has sorted them and most of the time at no cost to myself.

It is very refreshing to see a company that is willing to stand up and be counted, who open with its existing customers and potentially new customers.

I am now confident that should I need any work on my van done Timberland will be able to do it.

May I wish them the best of luck in the future, and once again ‘Thank You’ Mr Cain for being open and honest with everyone on this forum.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

I add my good luck as well, you deserve it, we need all your sort of people we can get in this trade.

cabby


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## jettdt (Aug 21, 2009)

I will wish Mr Cain luck but only if he can post an assurance that only the bank have been impacted by his actions.

Can you confirm all other creditors were paid and only you where the victim as your post seems to read.


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## Don_Madge (May 1, 2005)

I'm very pleased that Timberland are still in business. I'm hoping Kilmington is still operating as we live just across the Humber from there.

My Timberland took a real pounding on the roads in Albania and Crete, nothing to do with the build but grounding the van down and tearing off the Eberspacher tail pipe.

We shall need a new tri fold shower door as a water container fell over and cracked the plastic.

I hope Lee is still around because he started on the workshop floor and worked his way up and he is very knowledgeable when it comes Timberland vans.

Regards

Don


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

When a business fails the banks and HMRC are at the top of the queue. Other businesses are far down the queue, that is due to the law. Usually by the time preferential creditors have got their share there is nothing left for anyone else.

Another option would to have been let the business go completely, sack the staff and sell off all the assets and distribute the proceeds between the creditors. If that had been done much of the proceeds would have been spent paying the liquidators, all the employees would have lost their jobs and the UK would have lost a manufacturer and there probably would still have been little or nothing left for the suppliers.

I don't like to see things like this happen either but I understand the realities.

In times of recession the bank you got on so well with last year just turns into a predator. They are prone to make decisions which defy logic.

I have never been in quite that position but a bank did try to withdraw funding during the last recession, fortunately my borrowings were not on overdraft and they had to honour our agreement and allow me time to pay, Alan.


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## jettdt (Aug 21, 2009)

Exactly, and off course if there are any poor unfortunates that placed deposits on new motorhomes with the now defunct company they may have huge problems, this is far from just the banks are the victims so care should be taken in wishing people luck until all the facts are known.

Thats why I asked if MR Cain would clarify who the losers really are, I wont hold my breath.


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

Just wonder where the £2 million went that required a bank overdraft of that size


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## artona (Jan 19, 2006)

We are in tough times. Thanks for the statement Kevin and I hope you have not suffered too much mentally, relationship wise etc through it all.

stew


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

jettdt said:


> Can you confirm all other creditors were paid and only you where the victim as your post seems to read.


I can't help noticing that you've been very defensive of the free-sign-up-post on the other thread (Northernlad). Based on your latest detailed question here, let me ask what it's got to do with you?

Also interesting to see another obvious troll post by a new sign-up on the previous page, heavily weighted with dripping sarcasm. Nice.

Dougie.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I had not spotted that Dougie. Thanks, Alan.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

erneboy said:


> I had not spotted that Dougie. Thanks


No worries. There's no way that someone asks questions that aggressively unless they have a personal interest in it. Given that he's repeatedly demanding disclosure on some things, it's only right that he should be honest about his own agenda. He says (on the other thread), "I have absolutely no connection to either party.." but I find the repeated level of requests for information quite curious.

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-87715-.html

Dougie.

*FOOTNOTE* Just noticed that jettdt posted that he is "increasingly wondering if this site is simply a propaganda tool for some companies to make themselves sound good."

Also, "Yep its that attitude that makes me realise that this forum cannot be trusted for its company reports and I wasted my £10.00."

Also, "there just seems to be a lot of naivety about the impact people going into administration has on others... Or perhaps others have agendas too."

Which is exactly my question to him.


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## jettdt (Aug 21, 2009)

asprn said:


> jettdt said:
> 
> 
> > Can you confirm all other creditors were paid and only you where the victim as your post seems to read.
> ...


Its got to do with me as much as anyone else on here. I have not defended Northernlad. I have defended freedom of speech and just find it strange that there seems to be a culture of flaming anyone that makes negative comments on this forum.

I have said I have no axe to grind with this company, I just find it strange that people are wishing someone who has gone into administration and restarted the next day luck!! They are doing so without a thought to others this would have impacted. I do not know to what extent this has impacted other people and have asked for real clarity on this for no other reason than to make an informed decision, instead of getting that reply I am getting attacked for asking!

I have no ulterior motive I simply own a motorhome and have a strong sense of right and wrong, look back at my past posts and you will see I am a genuine, all be it fairly new motorhomer, unfortunately it seems that there is a culture of trying to undermine people who don't follow the back patting crowd on here.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Thanks for replying.

There's no question - from me at any rate - of flaming you. If however you read your own posts in the same open-minded way you read others', you'll reach the reasonable conclusion that you've been quite aggressive (I don't mean rude) in your requesting information, which gives the appearance to me of someone with an agenda.

Dougie.


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## jettdt (Aug 21, 2009)

asprn said:


> Thanks for replying.
> 
> There's no question - from me at any rate - of flaming you. If however you read your own posts in the same open-minded way you read others', you'll reach the reasonable conclusion that you've been quite aggressive (I don't mean rude) in your requesting information, which gives the appearance to me of someone with an agenda.
> 
> Dougie.


I apologise if I came across aggressive, I did not mean too, I think that can be the problem when conversing in this method. 
I do not really know how I could prove I have no agenda other than saying look at my other posts I own a swift and live on the south coast. My only agenda is trying to make people realise that they should be in a more informed position before making judgement either way.

My repeated 'calling out' of Timberland is possibly a misunderstanding the point I am trying to make is that without this information supplied none of us are in a position to judge either way. I don't think the question I was asking was all that controversial.

I 100% agree that northernlad should pay up and tell us what his interest is, thats why in the other post I was asking if he could. Incidentally I thought I was replying on this post but accidentally started it as a new topic.

All I was trying to say is just because he has not revealed his interest does not detract from the part of his post that was fact.

I will shut up now and try to sit on my fingers.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

jettdt said:


> I will wish Mr Cain luck but only if he can post an assurance that only the bank have been impacted by his actions.
> 
> Can you confirm all other creditors were paid and only you where the victim as your post seems to read.


This looks very fair to me. Mr Cain was at pains in his statement to point out how he had been affected by the actions of others. For the sake of fairness a response to the last sentence above would be appreciated.


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## MyGalSal (Dec 8, 2008)

Stuff happens. Nobody chooses to go down the tubes! Today’s market is extremely unstable. There are always two sides to the coin. It is always good to hear the facts and not just unsubstantiated insinuations. Instead of joining in the fray and fisticuffs or handbags all round some of us may be better persuaded to sit back, think hard and take a more reasoned approach. It would appear that Timberland has run into difficulties: I am sure they are in a very unhappy position and are not there by choice. It would seem they are trying to make the best of the situation. It is in everybody’s interests that they make a recovery. Let us wish them well. 
As for assertions that ‘people will lose their deposits’ etc etc , it aint necessarily so. We ordered a van from HymerUK in September 07. We were then abroad until delivery date of 3 May 08. When we arrived back in UK we went immediately to HymerUK to collect the van and to learn of Brownhills bankruptcy and management ‘buy out’ the previous day. We went ahead with the purchase of the van, now with the ‘new’ company ; it was seamless and we had no problems with vehicle warranty etc. And this from much maligned Brownhills. It is to be hoped that Timberland will be able to continue in a similar manner.
Sal


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Jettdt, Thanks for the clarification.

You said, "All I was trying to say is just because he has not revealed his interest does not detract from the part of his post that was fact".

We have no way of knowing the facts. We do not know what the new arrangements are, we don't know what is owed or to whom.

There is no culture of protecting people on here, or of picking on negative posts. Many do like to reserve judgement when we do not know the fats. It is only question of time, if customers are let down we will be told. 

If suppliers are let down we may find out but that is a risk that business people take. Either Timberland gave no clue as to their position and paid up as normal, in which case losses could be substantial but may be survivable or they got slower and slower paying in which case the signs were there for suppliers to see. Either way they have been surrounded by rumour for some time, again the signs were there for suppliers to see. Stopping their account or continuing to do business with them was a commercial decision for each supplier to take, Alan.


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## airstream (Jan 7, 2009)

*Fair Play?*

I have no interest in this topic other than to get a sense of "Fair Play"
The questions I have are
Are there customer deposits at risk/lost?
Are there suppliers, employees or others losing money?
If the answers are "all debts paid in full" then I wish the new company all the best
If others have lost money is there a plan to pay off the debts if not then we should sympathise with the loosers as one mans administration is anothers bankruptcy
Regards Ray


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Had northerlad not posted and Timberland responded we would have been non the wiser. 
Timberland would have carried on with no undeserved publicity. 
Customers would have been happy and confidence would have remained. 
lets not forget the quality product that has been saved. 
Its not gone to China or India like so many manufacturing jobs.

*Small suppliers may not have been paid Sadly that is a risk in business. *
It happened to me 20 years ago with a large manufacturer. 
I carried on business with the new owners, remember BL but on a pay for last months order before we deliver this months.

As for losers just check on how much your pension funds have lost in the last few years. 
Put things into perspective. Jobs were saved. That is the important thing.

dave p


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Q. Are there customer deposits at risk/lost? 
A. We don't know. We will probably find out in time.

Q. Are there suppliers, employees or others losing money?
A. Suppliers surely will. Employees may, we do not know. We may find out.

You say, "If the answers are "all debts paid in full" then I wish the new company all the best".
If they could have done that they would not have gone into administration.

You say, "If others have lost money is there a plan to pay off the debts if not then we should sympathise with the loosers as one mans administration is anothers bankruptcy".
There will be no plan to pay off debt, if they had a way to do that they would not have gone into administration. I imagine we all sympathise with the loosers and sadly some may end up bankrupt,

Alan.


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## LonesomeTwin (Nov 4, 2008)

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> ... *Small suppliers may not have been paid Sadly that is a risk in business. * ...
> 
> ... Jobs were saved. That is the important thing.
> 
> dave p


Jobs were saved at Timberland. At the unpaid suppliers there may be a different story.

Northernlads posts were coherent, rational, well argued and I think erased now?. He will prob make himself known at some point and will doubtless show that this story does have 2 sides and that his POV is slighlty darker.

No I'm not him. I just don't like phoenix companies, they operate in exactly the same arena as the bailed-out banks tho on a smaller scale. If I lend you a tenner I expect it back, I don't expect to be told that since you've changed your name by deed-poll you don't owe me anymore.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Poster*

I did not see the posting, so cannot comment.

However, I understand your circumstances Kevin and know how you feel. Been where you are but my business was self-funding. It was my Tyrant of a landlord that drove me out of business, not any Bank.

Myself, Greater Manchester Transport Executive and a major bluechip company all moved out.

The property has remained empty for more than five years (but the rents have gone up?!). with an estimated income loss to the landlord of circa £450,000.00

11 People from my company lost their jobs 
The properties have been vandalised
The landlord has Died

I wish you the very best for the future with your ongoing ventures. 
It took me a while to get back on my feet but I had no choice. The government would not pay me a penny in benefits, despite having paid Millions in PAYE, NIC, ENIC, CT, Business Rates and our good old very own Council TAX.

Good Luck,
TM.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

It was public knowledge that Timberland looked risky. Let's hope that the suppliers acted on this information and reduced their exposure so that in the event of a failure they would not be taken down too. 

No one is in a better position to see what is going on than a regular supplier, is payment slowing down, has the pattern of orders changed significantly and what are we hearing, Alan.


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

The government could (and should) make a big difference in the way creditors are allocated any money/assets remaining.

Why should the Inland Revenue/VAT and the banks be preferential creditors?

The knock-on effect of a company going bust is invariably the closure of other businesses.

If the pot were to be shared out equally between creditors on a pro rata basis then in the long-term the effect would be more beneficial to the economy as a whole.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

The new government should also bring in a new law relating to payment terms.

30 Days. That would help small businesses greatly.

The larger the company the worse they are at paying.
Dave p


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## gnscloz (Oct 4, 2008)

pippin said:


> The government could (and should) make a big difference in the way creditors are allocated any money/assets remaining.
> 
> Why should the Inland Revenue/VAT and the banks be preferential creditors?
> 
> ...


agree with all you say but the government isgoing to serve its own first (inland revenue) and the banks, well what else can you expect?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Equitable sharing would be nice pippin but the Government come first because they could legislate to make it happen that way. The banks get preference because they would not lend to business otherwise.

The rest can go hang, they have no leverage to change the system and the little people are of no consequence, Alan.

Edit: Dave there is legislation on payment but it is toothless rubbish, Alan.


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Actually, I thought the IR had given up that position of being first in the queue and that they had agreed to become 'normal' creditors.

tony


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Further,

Preferential Creditors:
From 15th September 2003 the Inland Revenue and VAT’s preferential status was abolished under the Enterprise Act 2002. This will lead to a lower dividend than the Crown creditors use to enjoy BUT a higher dividend in insolvency should be received by trade creditors (for example) than previously.

Employees retain the status of preferential creditors for their Arrears of Pay and for Holiday Pay claims in insolvency situations.

tony


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## LPDrifter (Aug 17, 2005)

Just want to wish Kevin and Timberland all the best.

I am not familiar with his situation but I do know a lot of small and medium size business who are hurting bad or worse have gone out out of business.

In the main these are hard working, honest people some of whom have been in business for 20 to 30 years or more - giving good service in a variety of different businesses. They did not do anything wrong. Just find themselves with a fall off in business, and dwindling asset values and in some cases in conflict with their bank.

Some of these people not only stand to loose their business but also their home and other personal assets because they may have given personal guarantees on business loans

It is not a good time out there.

So best of luck Kevin. I hope Timberland survives and goes from strength to strength


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## rayrecrok (Nov 21, 2008)

Hmm.
All this seems quite civilised, when I was brought down it was some of our Asian friends, I built them a restaurant on curry mile Moss Side in Manchester, they would not pay me even though I took them to court and won "Twice" the bailiffs went in and came back out empty handed.

They fire bombed my works van, let it be known it would be my house and my sons house next if I kept on harassing them for my money I found out they were drug barons down Moss side and guns were the norm!.

The restaurant was burnt out by the competitors on curry mile in one of the gang wars, but of little recompense to me and the manager of the restaurant who ended up managing one of their night clubs fiddled the club fled to Pakistan where they caught up with him and chopped off his hands.

All this is true no romancing!.

My Cash cow my workshop bought and paid for by the sweat of my brow and my retirement fund was sold to pay off my overdraft and creditors leaving me with just short of 5 grand when it was all over.

The workshop is now a second hand shop .


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## goldi (Feb 4, 2009)

Evening all,
The question you have to ask yourselves is how you would feel if you had supplied someone with a substancial amout of materials the went bust only to see them carry on in the same way ?




norm


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## roamingsue (Aug 23, 2008)

goldi said:


> Evening all,
> The question you have to ask yourselves is how you would feel if you had supplied someone with a substancial amout of materials the went bust only to see them carry on in the same way ?
> norm


There will be casualties in any business failure inevitibly. Norm can see exactly where you are coming from but Timberland's owner is in a horrible position and whatever decision he makes somebody is going to be hurt!! There is a world of difference from the con man that sets out delibrately to swindle and those whose loved business fails. Of course if you have lost money as a result you are in the same position but there is a difference.

I can just imagine the sleepless nights, the stress for his family and the pain involved having to sack some employees in such a small firm. The honest when they cannot meet there obligations suffer horribly from not being able to pay.


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## eddied (May 9, 2005)

*In business - from the outside looking in*

 Ciao tutti, there must be on this forum many hundreds of motorhomers who have, or have had, their own businesses.
There must be many more hundreds who have, or have had, comfortable well paid jobs 9 - 5 in somebody elses business or gov. dept.
The first know full well where the Timberland man is coming from.
The second should see the self inflicted scars I still have on the palm of my left hand, from unconciously digging my nails in during a long creditors meeting some 25 years ago.
I wish Timberland well; as I do any employees or suppliers who may have suffered. Business is nearly always tough, and sometimes you draw the short straw (I have enogh to thatch a cottage :lol: ). In the current recession it is even tougher, and any solution that has saved jobs is to be applauded.
saluti,
eddied


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## UncleNorm (May 1, 2005)

I hugely admire anyone who sets up a business. I admire Nuke, I admire EddieVanbitz, I admire my nephew in Scotland and another in Cumbria...

I admire Kevin Cain who started his motorhome conversions in 1999. Sandra and I first met him in 2003, when we used to visit his first premises at Wootton, North Lincs. We bought our second MH from him in 2005; we bought Our Coral from him in 2007. Any warranty issues have been dealt with most satisfactorily. 

We got to know Kevin as an acquaintance; I visited his house; he visited our house. We always met with a handshake. We have him down as a hard-working enthusiast who aspired to better and bigger things. We are sad to see the recent development which was clearly not of Kevin's making, and wish him and his whole team a successful recovery.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

goldi said:


> Evening all,
> The question you have to ask yourselves is how you would feel if you had supplied someone with a substancial amout of materials the went bust only to see them carry on in the same way ?
> 
> norm


It bloody well hurts.. Experiance.

Have you been to your bank lately and wondered how much of *YOUR* tax has kept them going.

Dave p


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## rayrecrok (Nov 21, 2008)

goldi said:


> Evening all,
> The question you have to ask yourselves is how you would feel if you had supplied someone with a substancial amout of materials the went bust only to see them carry on in the same way ?
> 
> norm


As I felt!.

Business is not some abstract board game where if you lose because someone has shaken a double six it doesn't really matter as you can make it up later its real life involving real people.

How would the reader feel if I came along and took the food out of your child's mouth, what would you feel like and what would you do?.
that's the reality of it.

Its very serious for the innocent victims and if a person knows he is on dodgy ground but keeps on taking from suppliers hoping it will be all right, well the sympathy is in short supply, know matter how they pleaded their case and if anybody can be taken along with that, sorry I cant..

Oh before anybody says I am bitter I am not, just realistic! that's why I lost everything my workshop, my boat, the wife's brand new Daihatsu Four track jeep she had bought for her for Christmas to pay everybody off, at least I can hold my head up at the end of it all and try to start again at the age of 46 in 1993 when it all happened.

And none of my Subies or suppliers lost out, and do you know what they all stayed with me for years and it was they who helped me back from the abyss and back on my feet.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Well said Ray.I agree with every word.

I think the words that you missed out were "I have a conscience"

Dave p


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## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

I wish Kevin Cain well with his business rescue, because that is what it is - a rescue from disaster. How much of that disaster was due to the recession, or his own mistakes, I don't know. Anyhow the past is the past and what counts now is his word and whether he keeps it. I hope he can and will do so. He comes across as a man with integrity.

From my own knowledge and experience, a long standing and financially stable company can be trashed by a seemingly arbitrary decision by the Bank to pull the plug and call in the loans and overdraft at short notice. 

I worked at a senior level for the private company I am talking about. The company in question was actually asking for a smaller overdraft facility than it had required in the previous year, it had a full order book, and basically was solvent and trading profitably. The overdraft facility was its working capital. It seems that one of its competitors had gone bust and the Bank's Regional director decided that all similar companies in that specialist manufacturing sector had become too risky to carry on lending to. Just like that.

In that situation, the directors don't even get the opportunity to go elsewhere and re-finance the Company with another Bank. In the real world a company can't repay the overdraft on demand. So, the Bank appoints Adminstrators or Adminstrative Receivers immediately. A financial rescue by the company's owner / directors becomes impracticable because the directors are removed from office with immediate effect. They have to run around trying to set up a new company to buy the business or assets from the Adminstrators or Adminstrative Receivers, with precious little time to find the required funding. 

120 employees lost their jobs on Day 1 of the receivership. The assets were eventually sold piecemeal for a fraction of their true value as a going concern, in a fire sale because the Bank refused the request by the Receiver for permission to pay the wage bill for long enough to allow the Company to be sold as a going concern. A fortnight would probably have been long enough. There were several interested trade buyers. 

The Bank also refused to repay any of the money paid by the employees into the Christmas Club, which had been held in the Company's bank account. That was just so nasty, and a kick in the teeth for all those who had just been sacked and their families, because this took place in November. It was just a few thousand pounds. It meant little to the Bank, and a lot to the families who lost out.

There were other consequences of this Bank's decision to pull the plug. The Directors failed to obtain funding for a rescue and so could not salvage their business. I understand those who had given personal guarantees to the Bank lost their houses and were made bankrupt. One of them died of cancer within a couple of years. I knew him and his wife. Nice people. Very sad. I'm sure the stress was a major cause of his illness. Did the Bank care when they took his house and sold it?

Ordinary trade creditors also lost out. Ironically, the Bank incurred a loss because it recovered less than the amount of the overdraft, due to its high-handed and arbitrary mismanagement of the situation. Boo hoo - NOT. :evil: 

Legally, Banks get away with trashing economically useful companies on a whim. How long will Governments allow them to go on causing economic damage to the Country at all levels? At the end of the day Banks are a necessary service to the economy, but they have been allowed to become "overmighty subjects" of the UK to the extent that they can blackmail Governments into bailing them out. Yet they remain unaccountable for failing to lend to commerce and industry on reasonable terms, in order to kick start the ecomo0ny and get us out of recession. I sincerely hope George Osborne and Vince Cable acting together will cut the Big 4 Banks down to a manageable size. 

SD


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## Imbiber (May 11, 2007)

Surely by continuing the company in a different guise suppliers may have the chance at mitigating their losses?

I know I've done it with businesses that have owed me money in the past. 

Nose and Face come to mind in these instances, especially if the owners are genuine and transparent, as appears to be the case here.

Tighter controls on trading terms, accounts payable and the removal of discounted special rates, can all go to help recoup the losses incurred by the previous company with the supplier.

I am sure any decent supplier would negotiate a sensible working relationship with Kevin to help him through this difficult time, even if it means him compromising his margins initially to remain competitive and viable.

Just a thought!


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Sd's excellent post above describes how a sound business can be disposed of in a few hours. This one describes how the same result can be achieved by slow strangulation.

This is for those who can't understand how a business can fail owing money, and why those who are owed are most often suppliers and usually small suppliers I will try to explain.

A business sets up to fill a need. In order to do that investment is usually required. In order to invest borrowing is often required, unless the directors are very wealthy. In order to support borrowing annual growth is required, the banks will not lend to a business which is standing still. As more equipment and materials are required there is more borrowing to support it. As production grows more staff, machinery and raw materials are needed. Machinery is usually bought on HP or leasing, these are usually three to five year commitments. Premises are usually rented on a fixed term or mortgaged long term. Wages are paid weekly or monthly, as the work force grows so does the wage bill. Paye is paid a few days after the end of each month and VAT is paid one month after the end of each quarter. Considerable quantities of cash are required each month.

There is a time lag between production and sales, realistically this could be between two and three months, so a business needs cash in hand equal to three months turn over in order to do business. Even in the best of times this is a juggling act for most companies. It is possible while sales are good.

If demand suddenly falls off all kinds of problems arise. Do you cease production and pay off staff, most employers do not want to do that as they loose good staff who will be very hard to replace. That means you will have products in various stages of production which you cannot sell as they are incomplete. The logical thing to do is to slow down new production while completing what you are currently working on but this will mean shedding staff and reducing your capacity. It also means that your overheads, which are more less fixed for the foreseeable future must now be supported by reduced sales. It is possible to downsize slightly, but at a certain point the reduced sales will be insufficient to support overheads.

Now things don't look good for the business. Sales are slow, you go to the bank to see what can be done. Banks don't like bad news and rather than help they will very often seek to reduce their exposure under these circumstances, who can blame them. Now the business has less income and is being asked to repay borrowing, often at short notice and very often immediately. At best there is usually a debt reduction plan where borrowings must be reduced substantially each month. The banks will charge arrangements fees for this and will almost certainly increase interest rates as well, the customer is no longer valued as highly as they were, in fact the bank would be happier without their custom.

So the survival of a once successful enterprise has now become doubtful. There was no dishonest intent. No business wants to be in this position. 

The solution is a cash injection, there is almost no chance of borrowing money to do this as you are now a bad risk. If you are very wealthy you can afford to batten down the hatches and wait till things recover. If you are not you are now falling into a black hole where there will be losers. You can jump into the hole and sell your assets to attempt to repay some of what is owed.

I have never been in quite that position and have always managed to pay my bills, but I have been very close twice and know how it goes. During the last recession my bank withdrew my funding without notice, I was very lucky to survive that. It was a difficult time. Most of my small suppliers stood by me and kept supplying the big ones did not. My company recovered and I had learned quite a few things. The biggest single lesson was to avoid borrowing on overdraft, Alan.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Fortunatley I have only had bank loans to purchase company vehicles. The first being 24 years ago and an amount of £1200.
As a sole proprietor I found the banks only wanted to lend me money whe I had a healthy bank balance.
All my stock is paid for upon receipt of invoice.
I owe nothing the stock is mine and I am owed thousands.
Do I worry.
Not now the mortgage is paid for and son in law has found a proper job.
I wish I could have an hour with the proffesionals that have lost my pension too many thousands of pounds to think about.
No one complains about those losses and the "crooks" that run around in fancy cars with big bonuses to boot. Rant over.
Dave p


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## Timberlands (Jun 15, 2010)

I have been amazed by the replies and viewing numbers to this thread which I posted yesterday in response to the comments by northernlad10.

And the counters are increasing as I write.

Thank you to everyone who has shown me support through MotorhomeFacts and also thank you to everyone who has emailed personal messages. I am most grateful.

The knowledgeable post by SpeedyDux has summed everything up correctly with his story of personal experience in a similar situation.

I have to be careful about what I say for legal reasons and am not able to disclose all the information I would like to.

I must reiterate that the action taken by our bankers could not have been foreseen against a healthy company with good orders and plenty of room in its overdraft.

And the action I was saddened to take on the advice of administrators was a far better course than might have been the case if we had been closed completely.

Again, I must point out:
•	We have saved 22 jobs
•	No customers have lost money
•	All deposits are secure
•	All warranties on new and pre-owned vehicles remain valid and will be honoured
•	Creditors have lost a lot less than they might have done
•	No staff have lost money

We exist today where that might not have been the case and hopefully the whole industry will recover so that we all benefit.

In a situation such as this there are no knights in shining armour to come to the rescue. I have been honest and my comments have been heart-felt.

Thank you all again for your kind messages and support.

Kind regards,
Kevin Cain
Proprietor – Timberland Motorhomes


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## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

> I have been amazed by the replies and viewing numbers to this thread which I posted yesterday in response to the comments by northernlad10.
> 
> And the counters are increasing as I write.


Well with 150,000 unique visitors per month Kevin we are without a doubt the largest single motorhome medium around


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

nukeadmin said:


> Well with 150,000 unique visitors per month Kevin we are without a doubt the largest single motorhome medium around


 :lol: Your turning into the Sky News of the motorhome Forums! If an announcement needs to me made, post it on Motorhome Facts! 150,000 people a month see it!

I remember when MMM was the bible not "Facts" How things change!

Eddie

ps Good post Kevin BTW It is a bummer when people loose out, but I am of the frame of mind that I would rather maintain 75% of some thing, than loose (and let all involved down) 100% !


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Just a few personal musings. :roll:

Seems to me there are those who know what it's like to run a business, and those who haven't a clue!!

I fall into the latter category, but I don't necessarily assume the worst and sit in judgement from a position of total ignorance.

None of us is privy to more than the most superficial information about what really happened, so why not offer a bit of encouragement in the hope that a very good British manufacturer can stay in business and honour the promises he has made on here.

Unless Kevin proves otherwise I shall assume he is both sincere and genuine in the statements he has made.

Seems to me some (_noticeably absent_!! :roll: ) members would rather hound him out of business - and probably some of his smaller suppliers as well since they may depend heavily on Timberland for their orders.

One thing I do know - there is bound to be quite a long _"food chain"_!

Dave


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## Fatalhud (Mar 3, 2006)

Personally I have great suspicion of any Phoenix Company

I worked for a company that used the going into administration ploy on more than one occasion, each time leaving a trail of hard up creditors, who by the time the Administrators had taken their sky high fees where left with next to nothing

Alan H


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## dawnwynne (Nov 14, 2009)

Alan,

I don't think anyone disagrees with you...there are definitely _some_ companies that work that way, have no conscience and will continue to do so unless something changes.

I do think though that this is not one of those cases. It appears (and I can only go by what I have seen here) that Kevin runs a legitimate business and has done so for many years and has simply run into hard times. It happens to the best. To assume because of that that he falls in the above category is extremely narrow minded and if I was in his shoes I would be very offended by it.

He appears to have done the best he could in the worst circumstances and I personally applaud him for that and wish him continued success.

Alan, have you yourself run a business? Just curious...I have and I can tell you that when you are looking at making many people redundant that thought alone will give you many sleepless nights. Forget the other worries such as money. Fortunately it never came to that for me but it was definitely close and at that time I would have done almost anything to save as many livelihoods as I could. Simple as that.


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Timberlands said:


> I have been amazed by the replies and viewing numbers to this thread which I posted yesterday in response to the comments by northernlad10.
> 
> And the counters are increasing as I write.
> 
> ...


Whilst I totally disagree with 'Phoenix' Companies arising from the ashes especially in the case of large multi-branch conglomerates at least Kevin has the balls to put his head on the parapet and stand by what he has done and be open about it.

Lets hope he has learnt some valuable lessons, the main one being 'softly softly catchee monkey' i.e. dont expand too rapidly and get too big for your boots.

If you havent got the cash, dont get too big all at once.

Peter


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## midlifecrisismil (Sep 27, 2009)

Fatalhud said:


> who by the time the Administrators had taken their sky high fees
> 
> Alan H


This is a major problem with insolvency - the fees charged by the Administrators usually eats up anything that is left in the company (of course they make sure that there is enough money in the company to get their fees out).

I have had several dealings with companies who have gone into administation (mainly on the receiving end of things!) and the fees charged would make your eyes water.

So perhaps the fact that the creditors of Timberland will get very little at the end of the day is not down to Timberland but the extortionate fees the company is going to be charged for the administration process.

Milly


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Timberlands said:


> The second option was to invest personal funds in buying back Timberland Motorhomes from the Administrator.


As I see it Kevin, it was the only honourable option, and despite great risk to your lifestyle and that of your family, you were brave and honest enough to make the choice, the only real one open to man of your stature.

Good luck mate, I think you may have made a few new friends.

Shame there isn't a emoticon for this occasion, so using reverse psychology :- :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: to the banks who are causing so much pain to so many hard working honest people.

Kev.


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## Snelly (Aug 20, 2005)

I find the start up story interesting. £500....

I started SV with big fat zero, but soon had to borrow off family to buy stock and expand etc etc... its easy to see how a company can borrow and borrow to expand, for it not to work out quite the way it was planned.

I find people business start up stories very interesting. If you've always been an employee, you'll never understand the personal and financial sacrifices made to advance towards what you hope is success.

This post could of been a 'Timberland took my money' thread, at least this course of action has limited the potential damage. I wish Timberland a turn of fortune. It's bloody hard work trying to make a success story in these times. God knows, it could be any of us next.

As for the comments on pheonix companies... give the guy a break, he's beared all and risked a lot to try save the company he worked so hard on. What I can't stand are people who go bust and then start up in the same business and just change the trading name... but yet carry on making the same mistakes both financially and with customer service. It should be like owning animals or having children... if you mess up and they come to harm and then you carry on harming them after you've been told off, you shouldnt be allowed the responsibility again.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

The main issue here is not of Kevins making.

It was the BANKERS

Dave p


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Company*



Fatalhud said:


> Personally I have great suspicion of any Phoenix Company
> 
> I worked for a company that used the going into administration ploy on more than one occasion, each time leaving a trail of hard up creditors, who by the time the Administrators had taken their sky high fees where left with next to nothing
> 
> Alan H


A holiday firm collapsed a couple of years ago and the name Phoenix featured in the new name of the firm!

Russell

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articles/2008/01/22/26479/travelscope-sold-to-former-managers.html


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## Brock (Jun 14, 2005)

There is no chance of getting agreement on what has happened to Timberland although there does seem to be a consensus that we don't like phoenix companies, we like companies to be successful, and we like jobs and customers to be protected. Ideally we would also like suppliers to be protected. In other words, we'd like the world to be perfect but we accept that it will never be so.

Some suppliers can take out insurance on the buyer going under. Insurance companies will rate the buyer and charge according to the risk. One of the reasons for some of the early failures in the retail market such as Woolworths was the insurers refusing to insure the buyer; the suppliers simply stopped the supply. It may not have been possible for suppliers to Timberland to have insured their risk because of the amounts involved or the cost.

When I was a small business adviser in the 80's [a time when bank's retained a degree of credibility], my boss said that whenever I gave a customer advice, I should remember that I will sleep well that night, safe in my job and feeling good because I gave advice. The customer may not sleep so soundly because they would need to make a decision, possibly with life changing consequences, on the advice I gave. It was heartbreaking to see someone lose their livelihood - thankfully none because of the advice I gave - and inspiring to see them prosper. I have always remembered it is easier to give advice than it is to take it. Oh, and hindsight is the greatest gift we can possess!

The self employed business men I knew all felt they spent most of their time in heaven because they truly wanted to be in business and the rest of their time staring over the precipice to hell which was always just one step away.

Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of Timberland, I raise my glass to all those small businesses that keep this country going.


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## Daveandhisdriver (Jun 19, 2010)

We have dealt with Kevin, Lee and the team since 2001, owning our 7th van and no 8 is presently on order. We've become personally involved with these people over the years and cannot fault their commitment to their customers. We've noticed though, over the last year, that things weren't as they used to be and, having another 'van on order, this has concerned us. Our worst fears became reality last week and, if we have any criticism, we had to learn the sad news from another source. Word has obviously got round at Loughborough, from friends of ours in attendance (also Timberland Customers) that we weren't happy about the lack of contact, to assure us that our new 'van is secure. No sooner said than done - Kevin and Lee have both rang us at home this morning, informing us of the present situation and putting our minds at rest. We can only say, good luck to you all and let's see Timberland back to the booming business it was, when we first got to know you all.


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

Sat here at the Prestwold House MMM show its interesting to note that the two biggest motorhome stands are sat one each side of the MMM information tent. Both are Phoenix companies. Brownhills on the left and Timberland on the right. UK company law permits this metamorphosis of one company into another. There are winners and loosers when this happens, mostly loosers though. Any alternative stricter legislation could stiffle private enterprise and deter entrepreners. If you don,t like the laws that allow this to happen then bend the ears of your MP and take your business elsewhere. 
But its far from a black and white argument if you believe in free enterprise. Whatever you do pay by Credit Card OK. 

C.


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## bendog (Apr 15, 2008)

*Timberland*

Have read the Timberland saga with great interest , took my £60,000 M/H to them today for some urgent warranty work , am having to wait 6 weeks before they have a slot , still trying to come to terms with this . Get your finger out Kevin .


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: Timberland*



bendog said:


> Have read the Timberland saga with great interest , took my £60,000 M/H to them today for some urgent warranty work , am having to wait 6 weeks before they have a slot , still trying to come to terms with this . Get your finger out Kevin .


Am I missing something here?

It sounds as if you think your £60,000 ( :!: ) van should be dealt with at once and without an appointment - by jumping the queue ahead of a lot of pre-booked but (presumably) cheaper vans. 8O

Surely this is not what you meant to imply?

Dave


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## roamingsue (Aug 23, 2008)

Hummmmm this is WARRENTY work, things that should not go wrong. If £60,000 has been spent for a luxury item then I would expect to be sorted out VERY promptly.

What is not clear of course is the whole story and what is wrong. There is a world of difference between something that stops use of the motorhome (which is a real priority) OR a faulty oven say. 

It also does not give the reason for the delay.. or what Timberland has said. I just think the poster is not quite as unreasonable as Zeebedee seems to think and for me the jury is still out.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

roamingsue said:


> I just think the poster is not quite as unreasonable as Zeebedee seems to think and for me the jury is still out.


You may well be right Roamingsue, but I don't see the significance of the £60,000.

A £20,000 motorhome is very much a luxury item for many people, and it should not go wrong either.



roamingsue said:


> Hummmmm this is WARRENTY work, things that should not go wrong. If £60,000 has been spent for a luxury item then I would expect to be sorted out VERY promptly.


Agreed, but what if all the others in the queue are also waiting for warranty work? :?



roamingsue said:


> What is not clear of course is the whole story and what is wrong. There is a world of difference between something that stops use of the motorhome (which is a real priority) OR a faulty oven say. It also does not give the reason for the delay.. or what Timberland has said.


Yes. Good point.

But I didn't say the poster is unreasonable. I questioned the message that seems to be coming across, since I don't suppose he meant it to sound like it does - to me anyway!

It's so easy to give the wrong impression with the written word! :roll:

Dave


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## UncleNorm (May 1, 2005)

*Re: Timberland*



Zebedee said:


> bendog said:
> 
> 
> > Have read the Timberland saga with great interest , took my £60,000 M/H to them today for some urgent warranty work , am having to wait 6 weeks before they have a slot , still trying to come to terms with this . Get your finger out Kevin .
> ...


By using that vulgar expression in closing his message, it suggests that that was exactly what Bendog meant to imply. But I could be wrong also. :?:


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## Hobbyfan (Jul 3, 2010)

No matter how this has been dressed up we have here a company that appeared to to have huge debts and has sought to rid itself of those debts by liquidating and forming a phoenix company. 

I would have more sympathy if he were to publish a list of all the people who've been left to whistle for money owed to them by Timberland. One of my oldest friends recently lost his house because a company with which he'd dealt for some years went bust owing him a lot of money. His firm never recovered from the blow but guess what? The chap in question was up and running a few days later with a similarly-named company, free of all debt!

Mr. Cain's actions may have saved some jobs but are they moral? Should individuals be able to relinquish their debts, avoid paying off lots of innocent suppliers, and then start all over again using the goodwill built up in the brand name?

Anyone who's had a builder do dodgy work and found that the original company no longer exists, so you've no redress for faults, will have little sympathy with Mr. Cain.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Price of purchase is imaterial.

First come first served juast like at car dealerships.

Quality control is the governing factor in a need for warranty work.

Poor qc either by the mh builder or his supplier.

Dave p


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## roamingsue (Aug 23, 2008)

I have no idea what happened in full in this case but in answer I think my full point was misunderstood.

The precise figure is unimportant the fact it is a huge ammount of money and the British are far too fond of queueing! If the dealer takes that sort of sum of course you need to make sure the customer is alright.

We are not talking of a packet of cornflakes here are we?

So if it means you work until the early hours... SORRY..... but tough. If there is a queue or warrenty problems, (somebody elese post).... what the hell happened at the PDI. There is not excuse. Mighit be sensible to form a coalition with other customers though.

Obviously at the end of the day if things are fouled up you have to be pragmatic and fit in with what they can acheive... but yep you know what I do expect to be looked after.

Sorry if this sounds fierce just done battle with a second hand cars salesman... he is still licking his wounds.... 


Zebedee said:


> roamingsue said:
> 
> 
> > I just think the poster is not quite as unreasonable as Zeebedee seems to think and for me the jury is still out.
> ...


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## pepandspice (May 1, 2005)

I read this post with interest. We ran our Company for twelve years and had to liquidate last summer. We didnt have any business loans, we never did, but when income was lean the business bank didn't want to know, they would'nt even give us an overdraft. We couldn't renew our lease as our landlord wanted to double our rent!! We struggled on for two years, keeping all our staff on and not taking any wages ourselves. We managed to sell our house just in time before our savings ran out and have been living off the proceeds since, not claiming a penny in benefits. My other half has moved on more than me, he now has another job in the same industry, his second one, (the first company didnt think they had to pay wages until we got the employment tribunal involved) but that's another story. I wish, despite all the stress that is involved in running a business, that we could start up again but don't think that will be possible.

I feel each day I am stuck in a rut, I don't even want to go out, and when hubby has gone to work, the only thing that keeps me going is my schnauzer (pepper) who sleeps a lot now.

Pepperspice.


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## blondy (Aug 23, 2007)

I do think that many mistakes are made in smaller business's re expansion.
I had a bossiness for 26 years until I sold it as a going concern around 10 years ago.
I started with almost nothing and drew £50 a week for years,
I expanded very slowly almost always using my money(was still expanding when retired), but I only did what I could afford I bought Our yard on mortgage, no rent to others, Had good S/H vans, good equipment,
all paid for, and some of my staff earned more than me.
We survived through 2 resesions through being sensible, not (clever). And one more thing, any customer who had spent money
with us that had a warrantee claim would be dealt with before any one else, with top priority.
All the best to timberland, they did the right thing, but I think a little bit of blame lays with the company directors


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## Brock (Jun 14, 2005)

I feel for you Pepperspice.


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## Wigan (Jul 15, 2010)

I have personal experience in dealing with Timberland Motohomes during this very difficult period. I bought a Timberland Destiny from them at the NEC in February and have had excellent customer service and support since then. I was over at their site last week and they looked after me really well. They upheld my warranty by doing some jobs on the van at no charge.

I think they are a great team who have been through very difficult times and deserve some respect for having kept the business going. They were very honest with me and I would trust them to look after me into the future.

Well done Kevin!


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