# Barking



## tugboat (Sep 14, 2013)

The dog, not me, though some might disagree! :roll: 

Unlike my last Westie, Ellie is a bit of a barker and growler and I'm not sure how to 'discourage' excessive barking/growling without stopping her communicating if she needs to. Maybe I'm wrong to even try, if so please tell me.

She is easily set off and then takes a while to stop. She tends to set off other dogs in the neighbourhood and it goes downhill from there.

She's not barking in anger, she has a lovely nature, but she is just OTT. Sees someone or something moving in the distance and she barks, yet not necessarily when the doorbell rings. Go figure.

She's only 7½ months, so maybe she'll grow out of it? Chastising or a jerk on the lead doesn't stop her. Trying to distract her with treats doesn't seem to work. The vet said I could try one of those citronella spray collars but I have a reluctance to do anything that might stop her barking in time of need. Especially when she's so young.

Maybe I'm answering my own questions here, but it's a long time since I went through the puppy stage so thought I'd seek advice. I don't want her to be a nuisance when I'm on a site with other MHers, I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate being woken at 6o'clock in the morning!


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Just make her stop when you think it's inappropriate, she will learn.

If you don't she will think that it's OK and it will become a habit to bark in response to pretty much any kind of stimulus. Some dog owners seem to find that charming, it's often damned annoying for those around them. 

We have always had at least a couple of dogs. They do bark occasionally but generally I just tell them to stop it and they do, Alan.


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## rayrecrok (Nov 21, 2008)

Hey up.

When she starts barking put your hand round her muzzle to keep her mouth shut and in a firm voice say NO!, if she starts again repeat the process looking stern at her to show your displeasure..

Your dog is trying to be Alpha dog, that's your job demarcation :wink:.

ray.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

My mother had a Westie that did the same. She used to look the dog in the eye ( if necessary moving the dog's head so Shan was looking her directly in the eye) and say "NO !" , very firmly but not too loudly. 
It worked very quickly, though, if Shan did want to bark to signal the postman or something legitimate, then she always looked to my mother for permission first.

We were on a campsite in Spain recently when a Spanish couple arrived on the next pitch with a small and very, very yappy Yorkshire terrier. I didn't actually say anything but must have given signals that I was not amused. The lady then took the dog into the van and beat seven bells out of it. This did work for a short while but embarrassed me. Had they not left the site 2 days later though I might have done a repeat performance myself as the wretched animal barked all day and night. I was told that the dog was barking because she was pleased to be on the campsite and to see me.....

G


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## Remus (Feb 10, 2011)

Stay calm when she barks. Pick her up and stroke her if you can catch her. Every time she barks inappropriately firmly tell her "No", perhaps with a gently wagging finger to emphasise the negative aspect of what she's doing. If/when she stops barking, give her some praise.

It's natural to feel like shouting "shaddup" but then you are making a noise just like she is doing. This tells her you are excited too. She'll think that you approve of her barking and want to join in.

Good luck.


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## lalala (Aug 13, 2009)

We've been on sites where a barking dog has spoilt our stay and we have moved on. If a dog barks as a puppy and is not trained to do otherwise then it will continue to bark as an adult dog .It's not occasional barking but constant yapping that is most upsetting. We stayed on one site in Northern Spain where a dog was barking constantly from about 6pm. Several campers were anxious about it, as well as being very annoyed at the noise. The owner was not in evidence. Eventually I went to find the site owner and she directed me to the bar, where the dog owner was merrily drinking and having fun …. he said he had to get away from the dog as its barking drove him crazy! Not that I'm suggesting you'd do anything like that Tugboat,
LLL


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

My sympathies Tuggers.

I've had dogs all my life, and if they come to live with me the little sods have to conform to my way of life, whether they want or not. I also hate badly behaved dogs and I'm determined that ours will not be a nuisance to anyone else.

Yeah - great in theory eh?? :roll:

A lot depends on the dog - whatever the so-called experts say. Our present pooch was so easy to train it wasn't true, and she's a Welsh Terrier, not renowned for being the easiest!

Some years back we had one, then two Westies, and they were generally pretty good, but we just could not stop them barking . . . and we do know a bit about dog training! Some dogs can be very difficult with certain behaviours!!

The best advice I can offer is to be utterly *consistent*, and *immediate* - and to reward rather than punish wherever possible. _(Punishment can work, but for all the wrong reasons - and is often counter-productive.)_ I wouldn't worry about the "friendly" growling - that's just her way of talking to you, but *every *time she barks inappropriately you *must *stop her, then after about two seconds of silence give her a reward. The reward must follow the short period silence *immediately *so she understands why she has been a good dog - along with lots of praise and strokes of course.

It's worth using a hand signal at the same time. We raise the index finger and hold it still, in an admonishing position, while giving the instruction. After a couple of seconds of silence use the same hand to stroke her, telling her how good she is, and give the sweeties as well. (Don't bellow at her - she may well think you are wanting a shouting match, and she will win! 8O Also, don't *ask *her to be quiet - *tell *her in a very stern voice.)

We find that Go-Cat is by far the best training treat for small dogs. They can't get enough of them, and there's nothing in them to harm the dog in the small quantities you will use for training. Four or five little pellets each time is enough. It's a fraction of the price of "proper" dog training treats, and works very much better.

Have some in your pocket all the time so you can use it *instantly *as a reward whenever she has obeyed a definite command (come, sit, stay etc..) - not necessarily only when she stops barking. Do be sure however, that she understands why she is getting the treat - she must realise it appears only when she has done as she is told. _(Be careful never to reward undesirable behaviour - it's easier than you might think when verbal communication is all but impossible.)_

Your objective is to fix in her mind the idea that she gets a treat whenever she obeys a specific command. Once this is firmly in her mind you can use intermittent reinforcement, which is an even more powerful motivator. Once she is pretty reliable at obeying, don't give sweeties every time, but use lavish praise and a good scratch of the ears as a reward. She should then (gradually) come to respond to praise alone - though you should give her the treats every three or four times to keep her "conditioned" to them.

Training her through her taste buds is the most effective method I know of. Far, far better than a boot up the arse, however tempted you may feel at times! :lol: :lol:

Hope this helps

Dave 

P.S. If anyone suggests that if you ignore the barking it will stop, thank them politely and ignore the advice. It's absolute claptrap. :roll: You can train kids by ignoring them on the naughty step (up to a point!) because you can explain to them why you are doing it, and can reason with them.

You can't explain to a dog!! :roll:


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

> Remus said, Stay calm when she barks. Pick her up and stroke her if you can catch her.


Sorry Remus - I have to disagree here.

If you chase her and pick her up when she barks you are rewarding the undesirable behaviour. 8O

In her mind she thinks, _"Hey, this is good. If I bark the boss will give me a chasing game, and he will pick me up and stroke me. I like that, so the more I bark the more attention and fuss I'll get!"_

As I said just now - it's very easy to reward the wrong behaviour. Any reward must immediately follow an appropriate response to a command, so she associates the reward with doing as she was told.

Dave


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

ExLax Tuggers.
It will be frightened to breathe let alone bark.!!

Ray.


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## tugboat (Sep 14, 2013)

raynipper said:


> ExLax Tuggers.
> It will be frightened to breathe let alone bark.!!
> 
> Ray.


I must ask your wife if it worked for you! :lol:


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## tugboat (Sep 14, 2013)

Flippin 'eck, I will be sleeping with Go-Cat under the pillow, who'da' thought it, eh?


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Can't remember the last time I barked.!!! 49 years of marriage and I have forgotten.

Ray.


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## tugboat (Sep 14, 2013)

Thanks, everyone, some good advice there to give me some direction.

Bloody females...........they never take any notice of what I say.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

The most important point is to know "why". If she is excited then she needs to be trained calmly. If she is fearful of the stimulus then she needs to be habituated to it so that she no longer feels fearful enough to bark.
Zeb's advice is very sound and, in my opinion, the only way to effectively train a dog. Rewarding the right behaviour and ignoring the wrong behaviour is always the best policy.
In this case you have to know why and then anticipate a bark so that you can "shush" her early and reward her for obeying.

The dog training mantra is "interrupt the behaviour and give the dog something to do that is incompatible with the unwanted behaviour, reward the alternative behaviour".

In this instance you could ask for a sit and keep rewarding the quiet sit until she is calm enough to be released. Or you could teach her to hold a toy that means she cannot bark and hold it. An exciting game with the toy is the reward.

Be prepared to walk away and completely ignore her if you cannot get control. Keeping up the attention is what some dogs are after. This is why you need to know why she is doing it. Sometimes it is purely attention seeking.

If you withdraw attention you must be prepared for the "extinction burst" which is when the dog tries harder to achieve the desired reaction (attention) before finally giving up. It is vitally important that no one reinforces her with attention during an extinction burst. Stay strong!


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## chermic (Feb 15, 2013)

Our Westie used to bark at everything and anything and drove us mad. We were staying on a camp site when a lady stopped and gave me the following advice. 

When they bark and you don't want them to, pinch the tips of their ears between the edge of your thumb nail and your fore finger. Don't be spiteful and hurt them but do it hard enough that she will notice.

We did this and it worked. We were told it's what their mothers would do to them (only Mum's would bite).

Hope your cure her.


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

Do what Barbara Woodhouse would do.
She visited a dog obedience club that my Sister belonged too to make one of her TV shows.
She got all the owners to line up with their dogs and went down the line to select the ones she wanted. When she got to a small Pekinese it took a dislike to her and barked and snapped. She took it out of the owners hands by it's collar and gave it a good shaking.
It was rejected from the show and had to be put down a few days later with a broken vertebrae.
She stopped it barking though.


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## kalamitty (Dec 28, 2006)

at our dog training center we use a water mist spray as soon as they bark we spray their face with a quick blast and it shocks them and it does work our dog stops as soon as she sees the bottle come out, and now does not bark in the van, you can get the bottles from the pound shops hair dressing section, just fill with water and be ready to give a quick blast next time barking starts, holding a muzzle also restricts their breathing so not recomended.


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## jedi (Nov 22, 2007)

My life is blighted by neighbour's dogs. I live in a peaceful rural location but if a mouse moves within 50 yards it sets off the dog. They don't do anything to stop it and when they go out it is even worse. They have a dog flap on the door and anything passing it's out and yapping. I can't even go in to my own garden without setting it off. It stresses me out and, yes, I am driven to shouting 'shadup'.

If it was teenagers I would be able to see it as 'anti-social' behaviour but it seems some dog owners see it as cute. :twisted: 

I like dogs and appreciate this is down to irresponsible owners who have no consideration for their neighbours. To the best of my knowledge this dog has never left the premises - no walks, no trips out. I feel sorry for it but could also strangle it.

It's barking as I type.

Please, if possible, train your dogs and I'm sure most people on here do. The problem is caused by the minority but can seriously impact on the quality of life of others.

It's stopped for now  

Jed


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Please don't pinch, shake, spray your dog. You will add to his stress and may cause another behaviour problem by adding to his stress destroying the trust he has in you.


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## cavaqueen (Mar 27, 2006)

Hi there,

We have very good friends on our campsite who have trained dogs for years, they say that the best thing is to spray them with water, a couple pitched next to them had an old dog who wouldn't stop barking, it was so bad that the campsite owners told them that if he didn't stop they would have to leave the site.

They used the water spray method and within a week the dog had stopped, they didn't have to spray it every time, they just picked up the bottle and it did the trick, it worked for them.

Cavaqueen


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## tugboat (Sep 14, 2013)

Let me reassure everyone that I am a benign dictator here at Tugboat Towers and I would never hit or otherwise harm my dog.

The instant spray method sounds good (presumably that is the modus operandi of the citronella collar) but in real life one is not always close by and tooled up when the event occurs.

For example, at the moment I am remodelling(!) my front garden to provide hard standing for the van, so I am gloved and messing about with wheelbarrows, soil, hardcore, etc, so if Ellie is outside with me on a long lead at the far end of my frontage I can't get to her quickly enough to be effective I feel. Thus I usually end up having to put her back indoors which is not where I want her.

Hopefully, once the project is done I can give her my full attention for a few days and get some serious training done. I have let her get away with too much these last few weeks. My bad, to use the current vernacular!


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

> tugboat said:- The instant spray method sounds good (presumably that is the modus operandi of the citronella collar) but in real life one is not always close by and tooled up when the event occurs.


Spot on Tuggers, which is why I suggested the combination of hand and voice signals, strongly reinforced by sweeties during the initial training, and intermittently thereafter.
Squirting her with water is more likely to confuse her than anything. She may well cease a *specific *undesirable behaviour when the bottle is shown to her, but it is still a punishment for something that is very natural to her - and you can't expect her to understand why you don't appreciate what is to her, an enjoyable conversation.

The treats are vital training aids at first, since they provide the strongest reinforcement of her obedience, and give her a powerful motivation to do as she is told in the future - so she can get more sweeties.

Never underestimate the cunning of your mutt! :lol:

As soon as you can however, you should begin to bring voice and hand signals more to the fore so that these become the primary motivation for the sweeties - that she may not always receive. _(Look up "intermittent reinforcement" for more info on one of the most powerful motivators known to man.)_

The whole aim of this regime is to be in a position to control her in any situation. If she was already trained you would not need to remove your gloves - just raise your hand and give her a command. If you didn't have a pocket full of Go Cat it wouldn't matter, as she would be conditioned to obey in the _*hope *_of getting her treats - and she would get some praise and fuss anyway. As long as she got the treats fairly regularly, maybe even on most occasions, the conditioning would be maintained.

In a nutshell, you need to give her a very sound doggy reason for _*wanting *_to obey you. What she wants most (at first) is the treats, simply because she loves them. The praise and fondling is also very pleasant, and after a while that may be enough to get her obedience, but will be an even stronger motivator if there are also a few Go Cat pellets as well!

One final tip - make the training a fun experience for both you and the dog. If you both enjoy it, progress will be far faster and the results will be much longer lasting. (_and don't forget to include Mrs Tuggers in the training or the dog may not realise she has to obey her as well._)

Good luck.

Dave

Edited for clarity.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I share Dave's view. I wouldn't want to use a punishment like the water spray, at least not as a first option. Rewarding good behaviour is much better and it doesn't need doing very often for the dog to learn, but consistency is absolutely vital for her to get the message. Don't instruct her to stop and then allow her to carry on otherwise you will never win, Alan.


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## tugboat (Sep 14, 2013)

Zeb and 'Commissar Stalker'(!), thanks, guys, yes I agree with all you say. My reluctance to get one of those spray collars was because I didn't want her to be punished for communicating. Now that you put it into words, Zeb, you are indeed showing me that the hand spray is indeed the same thing in effect, even though it wouldn't be deployed every time.

Puppy cunning, oh yes yes yes! They're crafty little buggers, aren't they? :lol: 

GoCat is on my shopping list, so hope that will tickle Ellie's taste buds.

Thanks again.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

The biggest problem with barking is that the dog is in an excitable state 

Which can be difficult to break through to get their attention

I think the water spray is not to punish but to detract the dog long enough to get their attention and detract their focus on what is stimulating them to bark

A plasic bottle full of small stones can achieve the same thing and you can throw it, not at the dog but in the direction of the dog

The aim is to break the dogs focus on what is exciting him to bark in order to get his attention onto your command

With an excitable dog large or small it can be a struggle

Best start now Tuggy  

Aldra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes something more may be needed if you can't get their attention, but if you start indoors getting their attention should be easy enough.

Teaching them to sit is a good start, Alan.


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## salomon (Apr 20, 2011)

Whichever method you choose, the most important thing is to be consistant. Also remember that a young dog will struggle to control himself. I always think of them like Rugby players. They know full well the rules but sometimes the temptation is just too much  
So, as long as you are convinced that she knows the rules, at the end of the day its down to the personality of the dog. You may just have one that will always dive in over the top or handle the ball off his feet. Or you may have a goodie 2 shoes  
We have one of each but thank goodness the naughty one is not a natural barker, otherwise I would go mad.

Enjoy training each other !


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