# LGV Licence Grey & Murky or B&W



## 98585 (Apr 9, 2006)

I have looked at the DVLA web site and there in straightforward black and white in the dedicated motorhome section it tells me that on my car licence (passed test in 1976) my limit is 7.5t or less.

A dealer has told me today that this is wrong, (there was no vested interest because I am buying something less than 7.5t) That insurance companies (well most of them) will still insure a >7.5t motorhome on a normal car licence. And then went on to say that many people are driving +7.5t on a car licence, and when stopped by the Police, nothing is said about weight as it is not a goods vehicle. 

The dealer went on to say that in almost all cases, any RV with even a single slide let alone two is in reality probably over 7.5t no matter what the plate from the importer states.

I am sure there's plenty of knowledge on this subject from you MHF members. So what is the score, is it a grey area? has anyone been nicked for being 7.5t> on a car licence And are most RVs with slides overweight for a car licence.


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## zaskar (Jun 6, 2005)

jimjam said:


> A dealer has told me today that this is wrong.


The dealer is B***S*****Ging you, as have been most dealers for years!
It's quite simple and as you say, it's there in black & white for all to see.
Standard car licence = 7.5 ton MAX - IF YOU'VE GOT "GRANDFATHER RIGHTS"

edit = the slideout /weight issue isn't that simple. Depends on the chassis, the coach size and the number of slides. A great many slideout coaches (especially single slides) are under the weight when empty but are pushed over the weight when the owners possesions are loaded.
My 34ft Landau (single slide) is underweight on the plate but as a fulltimer with all the kit on board, I'll plait sawdust if it is!
Every extra slide out (desirable tho' they are) adds wight to the coach due to the strengthening structure required.


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

This issue is like gas attacks and A frame towing. In reality, loads of people have been stopped, no one has ever been prosecuted.

And before this starts another anti/pro American debate, the number of European van that come groaning into our workshops with every nook and cranny filled right up is unbelievable.

I personally think that very few motorcaravans would pass close, scrutinised inspection, starting with gas, mains electric and placement of sockets, construction and use taking in construction and use of seatbelts positioning of lights, sweep of wipers on right hand converted, left hand drive A class vans, weight, payload The list goes on. 

Let he without sin cast the first stone and all that!

Cheers

Eddie


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

Did someone mention 'A' frames and gas attacks in a post about overweight, overhere vehicles? - this one could run for ages!!


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## Snelly (Aug 20, 2005)

Its not getting pulled over that should bother you...

Its if your in an accident, or even worst an accident that causes death or injury. First thing they will do is weigh your rv. If its over 7.5T and you dont have the right licence, your insurance will be void and you'll be slammed in jail.


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## 98585 (Apr 9, 2006)

Would the insurance be void? If the insurance company took it on in the first place, we all know they like to wriggle and slime their out of a claim but would it be hard for them to take your money knowing your licence type and vehicle weight at the outset only to deny you later?

Is this just a dealer generated grey area? and as Eddie said why isn't anyone nicked, or is this a grey area for the old bill as well? 

Grey areas in Law are horrible, they just make lawyers rich.


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## Snelly (Aug 20, 2005)

jimjam said:


> Would the insurance be void? If the insurance company took it on in the first place, we all know they like to wriggle and slime their out of a claim but would it be hard for them to take your money knowing your licence type and vehicle weight at the outset only to deny you later?
> 
> Is this just a dealer generated grey area? and as Eddie said why isn't anyone nicked, or is this a grey area for the old bill as well?
> 
> Grey areas in Law are horrible, they just make lawyers rich.


Come on Jim, they will do ANYTHING to get out of paying up! They will claim it was your responsibility to check you had the correct licence before you drove the vehicle.


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

Not a grey area, definately black and white, however I have not yet heard of anyone being prosecuted for being overweight in a motorhome and have never heard of anyone that has been involved in an accident being taken over a weighbridge. Would like to hear the story though if someone has.

Suzanne


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## johng1974 (Jan 17, 2007)

i have to agree with Snelly

its the resoposibility of the insured to be within the law..


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

Have to agree with Snelly and Johng1974, The driver is responsible for making sure that he is licenced to drive that vehicle. In my work (haulage) I am also responsible for my drivers and have to check twice a year that they hold the correct licence. This is a stipulation of my fleet policy provider.

The reason we check twice a year is in case a driver has been convicted of drink driving etc.


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## Forestboy (Feb 19, 2007)

I have access to our company weighbridge so weighed mine the day I collected it 04 Daybreak 3270 diesel puller single slide. 7100 kgs with full lpg tank 3/4 full water tank & 3/4 full derv tank plus me sat inside. This leaves 400kgs for provisions cloths & wife, if I want to take the motorbike she has to run behind. Probably worth getting class 2 hgv and putting back up to 8150 as original usa plate then have a decent payload.
Ror


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## kijana (May 1, 2005)

Why not just get an LGV licence and be done with it?

Then you're legal, you got the payload, and you had a useful bit of training.

Nobrainer for me.


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## Snelly (Aug 20, 2005)

LGV is certainly worth doing... even managed to teach me some new tricks. Its just a bummer that it costs so much.


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## 101411 (Oct 15, 2006)

Not all multislide RVs are over 7.5t Only A class or the really big "super C" class. 

Mine is a 3 slide B+class and weights in a mere 5.1 tonnes and my old RV was a superslide C class and weighed 5.2 tonnes

Dazzer


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## gromett (May 9, 2005)

Snelly said:


> LGV is certainly worth doing... even managed to teach me some new tricks. Its just a bummer that it costs so much.


I would second that, I found the training extremely valuable.

Karl


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

I will take mine when they let me take it in my van. Until then or until someone is prosecuted I will wait. 

Try contacting your local driver agency test centre and ask them if you need any particular licence to drive a motorhome and can you take a LGV test in a camper.

In my opinion, I am told that my camper is a class IV Ministry of Transport test the same as a car, I do not have to have a tachometer so I do not see an issue.

Again This has been running for years and years, I am only 46 but bought my first Yank in 1989 The was no argument then. 

The DVLA seemed to have this manic personal quest to shape and change the use of motorhomes, to such an extent that I suspect that the guy responsible for trying to force the issue has a caravan!  

There were full page adverts out in the mid nineties with a picture of a HGV and a motorhome asking people if they could spot the difference. This is the same argument in a different media.

Thats what I think


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## passionwagon (Nov 13, 2005)

WebAgents said:


> Not a grey area, definately black and white, however I have not yet heard of anyone being prosecuted for being overweight in a motorhome and have never heard of anyone that has been involved in an accident being taken over a weighbridge. Would like to hear the story though if someone has.
> 
> Suzanne


 8O I have seen a VOSA team (with police and Customs & Revenue) on the A149 in Norfolk stopping many types of vehicle. A motorhome was stopped and each wheel weighed using a portable weigher and the tank dipped! He went on his way smiling :wink:


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## 98585 (Apr 9, 2006)

eddievanbitz said:


> I will take mine when they let me take it in my van. Until then or until someone is prosecuted I will wait.


Eddie, is your Winnie over 7.5t?


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

This is a good post to read..

http://motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-12690-days0-orderasc-0.html

The debate goes on.. :?


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## 98585 (Apr 9, 2006)

ScotJimland said:


> This is a good post to read..
> 
> The debate goes on.. :?


Thanks for that Jim, it was a very good read but still left me shaking my head :? :? That George knew his onions didnt he? Where is he these days?


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Hi JimJam To be fair the one that I have got ATM is under 7.5 but I have had loads and loads of yanks. This one is only 30 feet as I tow a 27 boat trailer behind it!

Mine is down plated from 21,000 Lbs so I would alway rely on safety rather than bureaucracy.

Travelworld became the closest to prosecution but it was dropped two day before the court case. A member of staff, driving 14 ton in the fast lane, towing a car on an A frame. To be fair to Travelworld the line everything up, had their experts and legal team to hand, and the CPS withdrew!

Nothing in life is black and white.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi Eddie you downrated from 21,000 to 16,500 8O 8O thats over 2tonne, what did you do take the engine out?

Olley


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Look at my posts on Page 4 on this thread.

Dougie.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

eddievanbitz said:


> I will take mine when they let me take it in my van. Until then or until someone is prosecuted I will wait.


Once again, it's not primarily about prosecution - it's aboit invalidating your insurance, and the potential for ruining your life and everything you've worked for. Of course there will have been prosecutions - I would stake a great deal of money on it, although I can't provide specific evidence for it, just general knowledge. it's quite likely you will get away with it, possibly all your life, but I'm damn sure I will not throw away everything I've worked for, for the sake of a driving test.

Dougie.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Snelly said:


> If its over 7.5T and you dont have the right licence, your insurance will be void and you'll be slammed in jail.


I almost agreed with you, but happily, found something on which to disagree. :twisted: Unless it's you being stopped, and me stopping you, you will not be slammed in jail, or even arrested.

Dougie.


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## Snelly (Aug 20, 2005)

asprn said:


> Snelly said:
> 
> 
> > If its over 7.5T and you dont have the right licence, your insurance will be void and you'll be slammed in jail.
> ...


You've seen "police chase 4" on tv... well id run mate and I know your a good driver, but i'd give you a run for your money before one of your collegues stingers my tires, which may I add are bloody expensive so don't bother. Thinking about it, id just stop, tires too costly. You win. :roll:


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Snelly said:


> You win. :roll:


<sigh> Such a pushover. I hate compliant types.

:hathat35:


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## 101368 (Oct 12, 2006)

asprn said:


> Snelly said:
> 
> 
> > You win. :roll:
> ...


And there was me waiting for the criminal damage claim against whoever ripped his tyres.


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## krull (Jul 22, 2006)

jimjam said:


> Would the insurance be void? If the insurance company took it on in the first place, we all know they like to wriggle and slime their out of a claim but would it be hard for them to take your money knowing your licence type and vehicle weight at the outset only to deny you later?
> 
> Is this just a dealer generated grey area? and as Eddie said why isn't anyone nicked, or is this a grey area for the old bill as well?
> 
> Grey areas in Law are horrible, they just make lawyers rich.


Definitley will be void. One of the first terms and conditions is that you must have a license to drive the vehicle.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

krull said:


> Definitley will be void. One of the first terms and conditions is that you must have a license to drive the vehicle.


Absolutely. There is no grey area here. You agree to the Terms and Conditions on sign-up, so how can anyone complain when the wheel comes off?

Dougie.


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## 101776 (Nov 13, 2006)

If you read the DVLA website completely yo will see this:
Please read all the way to the bottom........its B&W not grey! If you do not hold the correct licence your insurance will not be valid.
You CANNOT drive a 7.5T motorhome on a Cat B licence regardless of when you got it..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The entitlement needed on your driving licence
You will need to check that your driving licence gives you entitlement to drive a motorhome. The categories shown on your licence allow you to drive vehicles up to certain weights, known as the maximum authorised mass (MAM).
Category B (car) entitlement
You can drive vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM, together with a trailer not exceeding 750 kilograms. To tow a heavier trailer you will need category B+E entitlement.
Category C1 entitlement
You can drive vehicles over 3.5 tonnes MAM but less than 7.5 tonnes (with or without a trailer up to 750 kilograms). To tow a heavier trailer you will need category C1+E entitlement.
If you passed the category C1+E test:
•	before 1 January 1997 (shown as C1+E (107) on the licence) you are limited to driving such combinations up to a combined weight of 8.25 tonnes eg motorhome 6 tonnes, trailer 2.25 tonnes 
•	after 1 January 1997 you are entitled to drive combinations up to 12 tonnes in weight where the MAM of the trailer exceeds 750 kilograms but does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle

Category C entitlement
You can drive vehicles over 7.5 tonnes MAM. To draw a trailer over 750 kilograms you will need category C+E entitlement. *Motorhomes of this weight cannot be driven on a standard category B (car) licence, irrespective of when that category B entitlement was obtained.*The size of the motorhome

The maximum size of a motorhome allowed in Great Britain is 12m in length and 2.55m in width. There is no maximum limit on the height, but if the vehicle is more than


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## 98585 (Apr 9, 2006)

There is _*plenty*_ of grey or this thread would be shorter, as would the other long threads on the same subject. Whenever the law is not clear it is straightened up by case law, trouble is there seems to be no case law yet (any vollunteers?) so the argument continues. 

I would volunteer myself but Ive had my LGV for years, not that I knew that when this thread started.


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## 101776 (Nov 13, 2006)

Bit confused as to why you think its a grey area, the bit highlighted in red is a direct quote from DVLA website.

If you drive anything over 3.5T you have to have Cat C licence, and failure to do so will invalidate your insurance, and ignorance is no defence in court.....

Bearing in mind that most people I know that have a big rig, are VERY sensible and Good drivers, I would think that we as a responsible motorhoming community would welcome this, we should be trying to protect ourselves and families from idiots that buy a big rig, and are told by some unscrupulous MH dealer its okay to drive, then set off down the road and cause a fatal accident because they don't have the experience to handle the weight/length whatever...

I have held a HGV1 for many years and I can tell you I've seen some pretty useless drivers ! (N.B for those that don't know I am a woman)


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi the reason its a grey area is that a C licence entitles you to drive a rigid axle goods vehicle over 7.5 tonnes, it does not allow you to drive any vehicle over 7.5 tonnes. ie. coach.

A motorhome is not a goods vehicle, nor is it a coach. you cannot take your C test in a motorhome.

The DVLA do not make the law, they only give an opinion. The courts would probable put great weight on their opinion, but it doesn't alter the face that it is only an opinion.

If it was cut and dried, a motorhomer would have been taken to court by now, or refused an insurance payout, neither of which appear to have happened.

As jim said there is no case law, until there is us motorhomers/RVer's can keep arguing the toss, here and on other forums. :lol: 

Olley


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## 101776 (Nov 13, 2006)

personally I think you are basing your arguement on something that does not exist.

If a member of your family was involved in a an accident with someone who argued on the basis you have, would you be happy with it? I doubt it.

The DVLA are there for our protection, we should abide by their ruling however vague. I don't think you can argue that what I had highlighted in red was 'vague'.

Peoples attitudes need to change and accept that a big vehicle is a loaded gun.....and its people that cause them to go off....
I spent a lot of time and money getting my licence, so that I can act responsibly within the law, just wish everyone else would too....


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## 98585 (Apr 9, 2006)

bouncer said:


> personally I think you are basing your arguement on something that does not exist.


Exactly... there is no existing case law, it does not exist. That is why there is this discussion,

I have found it very enlightening reading through the many hundreds of posts on this subject. Reading them with an open mind I still have to admit that the one thing it isnt is black & white. It should be of course, but our opinions do not matter, case law does.


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

I don't have a HGV but with all of the experts around, I wonder if anyone can tell me what is the max weight mini bus towing a trailer I can drive when it is not for hire or reward?

I work it at 12,000 kilos, with 9 fixed seat belts according to my licence.

So the question is, Is my RV with 9 seats with belts more like a mini bus or an artic lorry?

Sorry I still see the whole issue as grey. Frankly looking at the icons on the licence the profile looks just like my van and my van looks nothing like the lorry icon that the whole world keep telling me I should be governed by.

Cheers


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi bouncer, think about this then. I passed my C licence last year, since than I have been driving an RV, L/H drive, auto box, hydraulic brakes, in ten years time without ever driving one in the meantime I will still be qualified to drive a 32tonne sand lorry. 

And with the C+E its even worse, the only reason for me to go for this is to tow a 1 tonne car behind, but just the same in 10 years or more I will still be qualified to drive a 42tonne artic. Do you think thats safe or sensible? because I don't.

Olley


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## 101776 (Nov 13, 2006)

No Olley, I don't but then again, at least you would have a really good idea how a lorry would handle....which is more than can be said for someone who jumps from a fiesta into a LHD RV that weighs 7.5T+ and is probably in excess of 30' long.

As you undoubtedly know there is a lot of difference between how you approach a left/right turn in a rigid 10T lorry and a 38T artic .

All I'm saying is, i just wish they would make it compulsory for anyone driving anything over 3.5T motorhome to have lessons before unleashing them on the general public.

Classic scenario, turning left at a busy junction, mum with pushchair,waiting to cross, large rigid vehicle turns left, clips curb - end of baby in buggy......does not even notice cos too busy trying to get it around the bollards so looking other way........

I've actually stopped when driving an artic and brought the town centre to a halt, got out and pointed this out to a woman with baby...can you move your baby back please, and don't let the buggyoverhang the road. so I can get round this corner safely.... honest the mind boggles..

So someone jumping into a RV could get into a big mess without even knowing it....

Have you noticed on campsites, there is no regulation about having a 'banksman' when reversing a large RV?, surely it is in other campers interest to have someone looking out for you at the back of a large RV incase a child wanders behind??? You can't see them behind a 4x4 let alone a high RV.

I'll stop waffling on now, I'm just safety concious, and wish everyone else was too...


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

hi bouncer licence issues aside I too believe we should have to take lessons and a test, your right about the rear wheels, this was beaten in to me by my instructor  look in your mirrors :evil: 

After I had clipped the kerb for the umpteenth time he said"I bet you don't hit the kerb in your RV". no I replied, not with what my tyres cost me  

Olley


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

But Bouncer, strangley it is the professional drivers that drive into our site like lunatics and have dents and scratches all over their lorries and our customers drive their nice shiney rigs scratch and dent free very carefully and considerately, observing the site speed limits.

A weeks direct access course doesnt make a driver, just gives you a licence!


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## 101776 (Nov 13, 2006)

Point taken, My answer to that is how many of those so called 'professional' drivers actually own their own truck??

I have, and I can tell you, it diden't have a scratch on it anywhere, before that I worked for 'owner drivers' who took great pride in their vehicles, but yes I do get your point.....

To be honest, being older( Hmmm don't go there!), I despair when I see some of the younger truck drivers on the road, they scare the S*** out of me the way they behave, and I'm usually driving a big truck (Renault Magnum with Fridge or Volvo FH12 with curtainsider)...watching them intimidate motorists, and pull out without signalling etc...

The fact that they can take lessons and a test in a week is no substitute for learning the 'proper' way like what I did!!, half of them don't even know what a dolly knot is let alone tie one....


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

bouncer said:


> ... half of them don't even know what a dolly knot is let alone tie one....


If it's anything like a Sailor's Whipping, I'd be up for learning..... 8)

Dougie.


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## klubnomad (Mar 6, 2006)

bouncer said:


> half of them don't even know what a dolly knot is let alone tie one....


Ah yes, the quick release knot used eons ago to tie down tilts.

Dave

656


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## 101776 (Nov 13, 2006)

God Dave I must be older than I thought then!!! lol

Nothing wrong with a bit of bondage....this has now gone completely off topic, I started this morning talking about licences...lol


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## 98452 (Apr 2, 2006)

Hmm and if I become an insulin dependant diabetic i loose my licence to drive anything over 3.5 ton which is ridiculous.

Some of our laws are stupid :wink:


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

RR said:


> Hmm and if I become an insulin dependant diabetic i loose my licence to drive anything over 3.5 ton which is ridiculous.
> Some of our laws are stupid :wink:


Do you know the reason for that particular law?

Dougie.


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## 98452 (Apr 2, 2006)

asprn said:


> RR said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm and if I become an insulin dependant diabetic i loose my licence to drive anything over 3.5 ton which is ridiculous.
> ...


No but pleased to be enlightened :wink:


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## 101776 (Nov 13, 2006)

Yep I agree with that too, I'm tablet controlled diabetic, but like most truckers that are, I dread the day they want me to change to insulin, hopefully I'll be too old to want to drive anything by then....

It's getting to be a toss up between the dodgy eyesight (can you read the board with your specs on YES, ho good, now read it without them..WHY??)
I never get out of bed without me specs let alone attempt to cruise the A1 in a artic without them....

and yes ....the diabetes.....

They reckon driving an artic is more stressful than piloting an airliner...I agree, the HGV medical renewal makes everyone stressed!lol


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

RR said:


> No but pleased to be enlightened :wink:


I always prefer people to be clear about why they hold views on things. If as you do, you feel this law to be stupid, and if you're clear on the rationale behind it, then putting it up for discussion would be good. As you didn't specify why you felt it to be stupid - and as I can think of several reasons why this piece of legislation might have been passed - I was curious as to your views.

Dougie.


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## 98452 (Apr 2, 2006)

Try reading Diabetes UK finding on drivers and diabetes.

You can be a cocaine addict and drive a lorry, an alcoholic and so on.

Most diabetics can read there bodies exceedingly well (long term blood test can prove stability of the sufferer) if they CARE for their condition like I do and the majority of sufferers do so know when a problem is coming on if ever.

A law blanketly pinching diabetics licences just because they become insulin depended is unjust and not thought through IMHO.

Control of diabetes has come a ong way forward now :wink: shame about the law :wink:

Why are they more dangerous on the road than any other person??????

After all pedestrians and cyclists can and do cause many major accidents :wink:

PRESS just one example :wink:


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## 98452 (Apr 2, 2006)

And another

http://www.diabetes.org.uk/About_us/News_Landing_Page/2864/

*Diabetes UK wins driving licence change for people with diabetes*
05 April 2001
_People with diabetes have won a significant victory today with new regulations coming into effect which will remove the blanket ban on insulin users driving vans and small lorries. The change, the result of strong campaigning by Diabetes UK, will see the introduction of individual medical assessment for C1 licences.

"This is an important victory in the fight to remove discrimination against people with diabetes on the roads,? said Paul Streets, Chief Executive of Diabetes UK. ?The parliamentary science and technology committee has condemned blanket bans on people with diabetes driving as ?illogical and inconsistent?. *We hope that this new and fairer approach will now be applied to all classifications of licences and the government?s commitment to a research programme to look at this issue is welcomed."*
Applicants for the C1 licence will now be assessed individually. A satisfactory annual check-up and evidence of good diabetic control will be the main qualifying conditions. The changes were agreed following a public consultation and apply to large vans and small lorries (category C1 vehicles) between 3.5 and 7.5 tonnes. The blanket ban on those treating their diabetes with insulin will still apply to LGVs, minibuses and buses._


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

bouncer said:


> I'm just safety concious, and wish everyone else was too...


Hear hear Bouncer,

Jock. (C+E, D+E)


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