# speed traps ?



## rolla (Aug 14, 2010)

Hi, i was told that on french motorways you are timed between tolls, is this correct? 
What is the fine for exceeding the limit ? 

gazza


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## Traveller_HA5_3DOM (May 9, 2005)

Could be Urban Myth. I have noted police cars at some of the pay booths but no evidence of what they were doing. Why not just take the easy life and keep to the limits, just think of the fuel you will save!!


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

I too understand this to be an urban myth ! You ticket has a time on it and we have been asked to account for why we spent so long on the motorway ( we overnighted) but we were then waved on after explaining. I suppose the opposite could be true - ie why have you travelled so fast- but it would have to be seriously fast to show up I suspect.

More and more exits to towns and villages now have automatic tolls which would involve some one coming out from the nearest centre in case of a problem.

As Traveller says: the speed limits are set so that you can maintain a faster speed if you wish but, driving a large brick, it is much more economical to drive around 60 mph and to enjoy the facilities of the aire de service along the way.

G


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

No point me competing in that in the van, it's not quick enough. What's the prize and how long is the competition running for? Are there classes of entry or is it just fastest overall wins? 

A friend of mine was a former Irish champion, but they disqualified him, pity it was a good run. He averaged over 140mph in an M3, Alan.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*myth*

Hello,

I can assure you it is not urban myth.

Think about it. You want to get from Calais to St. Tropez as fast as possible in your M3, Buggati etc. So you fly down the motorway dodging everything that you can. If the roads are quiet, you can pick some serious speeds up.

You get you ticket at an automated booth, date and time stamped. Tear along a stretch for a couple of hours with no stops. When you get to the toll booth to pay, card goes in, computer works out kilometres covered over time and an average speed is calculated. So if you have been doing 130mph rather than 130kph, then you have been doing 210kph (AVERAGE). Simples.

But the chances of you managing these speeds and getting ticketed/prosecuted are fairly slim.

But do bear in mind the new laws introduced recently in France. They cost of the fine varies as to how far over the limit you have gone. If you go way over, the vehicle can be confiscated and you have to await a court appearance date for a judge to decide your penalties. This can include a custodial sentence BEWARE!

TM


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## rolla (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks teemyob, i only posed the question, and at no time did i sugest i would be travelling that quick, i have just heard this on the grapevine, and i know that some vans out there 2.8 modern diesels can sit at 80 mph all day long, mine is a 2 litre petrol! i won't be picking any fines up, so as this is only my 4th post after introducing myself, stop taking the p..s you motorhome bullies or ill take my ball and go home! 

gazza


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## JohnH (May 10, 2005)

I clearly remember a few years ago, heading north on the Motorway de Sud, seeing a gantry sign with an English number plate and the words "Speeding" "Slow down" beneath it. I can only assume that either the French motorway system was very advanced or a random number was flashed up to frighten everyone into slowing down.
John


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

rolla said:


> , ....stop taking the p..s you motorhome bullies or ill take my ball and go home!
> 
> gazza


Don't do that ! I don't think any of us intended to come over as bullies and apologies- from me anyway, I can't speak for the others, if it came over that way.

G


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

JohnH said:


> seeing a gantry sign with an English number plate and the words "Speeding" "Slow down" beneath it. John


Excellent ! wish we had this built into the UK motorway system !

Can you imagine:

AB123XYZ: What part of 70mph don't you understand ?

The French system is very advanced in terms of safety and other features- but you pay for that in your tolls.

G


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## kenp (Sep 8, 2006)

Please also bear in mind that there are speed cameras at fixed locations on the french autoroutes. They are marked on Michelin atlases and on Tom Tom.


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## brianinfrance (Aug 15, 2010)

*speed traps*

There is no trap. the police are specifically excluded from using such information to prosecute motorists. Motorway police are equipped with pursuit Subarus especially in the Paris region. The cops you see at the toll booth are likely to be Customs (Douane), they check documentation, drugs etc, but not driving offences. Gendarmerie use hand-held binocular radar guns and often use toll booths as a handy stop. Very frequent at Franco-Spanish fontier, Irun/Henday. At the booth you will be fined on the spot. HGVs are checked by DDR or DIR formations supported by Gendarmerie. For radar traps check your itinerary on www.viamichelin.fr
Locations of traps are openly published and the current policy is to post advance warning signs. Uk registered vehicles are not on the French database so will not be ticketed. except in an on the spot situation.


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## Jented (Jan 12, 2010)

Hi.
They had this number/speed display gismo at road works on the M1,a while ago,so we do have the technology Capt.Kirk!On going down to Portugal in the car,we have noticed there are more manned (Personed lol) speed units operating,and in Spain,just after a gantry flashing "Slow down" (Velocidad something?) there was a police car and patrol man at an Aire pulling sinners over,and a Spanish trucker saved myself and a chap in a merc slk with a hundred exhaust pipes sticking out the back, by banging his brake lights on and off. We dropped back to an acceptable warp speed factor and saw the look of frustration on Senor policemans face.
Be carefull out there,the news has reached our european cousins that there is easy money to be made from electronic gadgetary.
Sinner


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

Jented said:


> Hi.
> 
> Be carefull out there,the news has reached our european cousins that there is easy money to be made from electronic gadgetary.
> Sinner


I imagine the cost of the equipment and the police patrol to operate it more than outweighs the fines collected -especially if oncoming motorists are flashing warnings.

Surely the whole point of the exercise is to stop boy racers in flash cars showing off and killing sensible motorists ? I could drive at 150 mph if I wanted to so it can't be either a clever thing or a particularly difficult thing to do so what is the point of it ? Time and again I've had it proved that the man who overtook me so dangerously actually arrives at the junction at the same time as me so it can't gain much time either.

Silly boys still playing with toys ?

G


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

> Time and again I've had it proved that the man who overtook me so dangerously


OOh Griz - I find it is the young women who do the dangerous overtaking more and more these days (usually while on the phone or even as the wife and I saw yesterday TEXTING!!)


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

"I could drive at 150 mph if I wanted to...........". Probably not, at least not for long, it is a completely different thing form doing 60, 70 or even 100 mph. I am not trying to pick an argument but be assured that at very high speed staying in control becomes exponentially more difficult. 

Before I am attacked for saying that, I know because motorsport was my sport. I have never approached that speed on the road, nor indeed had a car which could have done so, Alan.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

erneboy said:


> "I could drive at 150 mph if I wanted to...........". Probably not, at least not for long, it is a completely different thing form doing 60, 70 or even 100 mph..


Fair point Alan but you understand my drift ?

The only statements that are made by an excessively fast driver is that they are too stupid to read road signs, too unimaginative to understand that excess speeding in busy areas can kill and possibly too selfish to care. Do we really want that sort of person on the roads ?

G


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## Jented (Jan 12, 2010)

Hi.
There are an awfull lot of sinners,here in England,i have been running at 70mph on a m/way,with a police vehicle in sight,and people have gone bywith no action being taken by the police. 
As regards myself and the Merc,the limit was 80mph we were probably cruising 85/87 mph. I NO THAT IS WRONG!!!!!,but as you can be done for 2 or 3 miles an hour more,thats why we reduced speed. I came up on him gradually,the reason being he kept falling of the pace,i think we changed places twice,all very gentlemanly,being as the engine in the merc was 4 times more powerfull than mine.
The words..." Reduced speeds to a more reasonable warp speed factor" i used lets say, for "Poetic license?" .Here is an idea, instead of exchanging details when you collide with someone,why don't we have to inform and wait for the police to come,surely this would help bring out the bad drivers,i think this happens in Germany.
Last but not least,the A17,parts are single track for miles,thats 40mph for lorries,we all sit there whizzing along at 50mph in a convoy silently fuming away,why is it not dual track,imagine what it would be like if ALL the lorries stuck to 40mph?. It was once said that if it was not for the difference in speed,England would soon grid lock.
Sinner. (The oldest teenager in Derbyshire)


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## KeithChesterfield (Mar 12, 2010)

Boy racers? 150 mph? Flash cars? Merc's?

What are you all on about?

Calm down Dears and get a grip!

I thought this was a MOTORHOME forum?


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

KeithChesterfield said:


> I thought this was a MOTORHOME forum?


As it is but, you will perhaps have noticed, we do discuss other things as well. A boy racer crashing into a MH at excessive speed is a possible option....so not too OT.

I think we all assumed the OP was not talking about his MH as I very much doubt most of them could exceed the given time for covering a stretch between tolls- assuming that is there is one !

G


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Hello Keith. While it is a motorhome forum posts are by no means restricted to motorhoming. Everyone is perfectly calm at the minute, you will be in no doubt when people get excited, believe me, Alan.


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## Jented (Jan 12, 2010)

Hi.
PSV coach crashing into a car,and then another coach crashing into the back of the first coach,and not a boy racer or m/home in sight.
Has someone been sleeping in the choreography department?.
By good fortune,no one was hurt,so it would appear you could be as easily wiped out by a coach/lorry or boy racer,also Stags leaping over hedges at night onto the road up in the lake district,(That focused my mind).Lose cattle country roads,these have all taken lives,what was that saying on the TV prog,"Take care out there,its hell on the hill".
This in NO way is ment to cause offence,over the years i have helped
People out of wrecked vehicles and seen true tragedy,its part of the job,i am a firm believer in defencive driving,NEVER!! become the meat in the sandwich.
Ted Gearjammer


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## CurlyBoy (Jan 13, 2008)

*Speeding in France*

On the odd occassion we have used the autoroute in France I have noticed there is often a few "very" fast cars parked up just prior to the booth. I have assumed this was to add time to their ticket?

curlyboy


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

rolla said:


> Hi, i was told that on french motorways you are timed between tolls, is this correct?
> What is the fine for exceeding the limit ?
> 
> gazza


There are speed cameras on the bridges on some, not all motorways and the police just wait at the toll booths and pull you over with photographic evidence and you pay up on the spot. I don't know if it is an average between two points but I have seen many cameras on motorway bridges the same as here in UK. I doubt that its an average between toll booths as they don't take photos or reg numbers of every car that passes through - wouldn't be practical. They only have to catch you once, as in this country and you're nicked as they say. The only difference in France on motorways they seem to be able to get an instant copy and nab you on the way out of the toll booths.


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## rolla (Aug 14, 2010)

that stimulated some debate, but did we get a definitive answer? 
Lots of well meant comments and lots of different opinions, i guess common sense is the name of the game. 
Thanks for all your points. 

gazza


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

New motoring penalties in France.

le gouvernement a besoin d'argent ! ! ! ! 
Nouvelle tarification des retraits de points.


Petit excès de vitesse : 1 point et 68 euros ou 135 euros moins de 19 km/h . 

Gros excès : 3 points et 135 euros entre 20 et 39 km/h . 
4 points et 135 euros entre 40 et 49 km/h . 
6 points et 1500 euros maxi entre 50 km/h et plus. 
Ceinture : 3 points et 135 euros ; 

Téléphone : 2 points et 135 euros. 

Stationnement : 3 points et 135 euros 

Dépassement : 2 points, si vous accélérez ou refusez de serrer à droite lorsque vous êtes sur le point d'être dépassé 

3 points et 135 euros lorsque vous doublez par la droite sans clignotant ou trop près d'un piéton (ou d'un cycliste...
ou sans possibilité de vous rabattre vite ou en faisant une queue de poisson ou alors que vous êtes déjà sur le point d'être devancé. 

Feu Rouge ou « STOP » : 4 points et 135 euros 

Alcoolémie : 6 points d'office, jusqu'à 9000 euros 


Petite alcoolémie 135 euros: Taux d'alcool compris entre 0.5 et 0.8g/l de sang soit de 0,25 à 0,40 milligramme par litre d'air expiré. 


Grosse alcoolémie jusqu'à 4500 euros. Délit passible également de deux ans de prison maxi, pour un taux d'alcool d'au moins 0,8 gramme par litre de sang, soit de 0,4 milligramme par litre d'air expiré. 
La sanction est identique en état d'ivresse manifeste ou si vous refusez de vous soumettre au test. 
En cas de récidive (état d'ébriété, d'état d'ivresse manifeste ou de nouveau refus du test ), la peine maxi est doublée ( jusqu'à 9000 euros et 4 ans de prison ). 

Priorité: 4 points et 135 euros. 

Sans clignotant: 3 points et 35 euros, si vous changez de direction ou si vous sortez d'une place de stationnement 

Eclairage : 4 points et 135 euros, si vous circulez sans éclairage de nuit ou par visibilité insuffisante 

Distance de sécurité: 3 points et 135 euros. 

Ligne continue : 1 points et 135 euros, si vous la chevauchez.. -- 3 points et 135 euros: Si vous la franchissez. 

Sens interdit : 4 points et 135 euros. 


Autoroute : 3 points et 35 euros quand vous circulez sur la bande d'arrêt d'urgence 4 points et 135 euros, si vous faites demi - tour ou effectuez une marche arrière. 

Détecteur de Radars : 2 points, jusqu'à 1500 euros 
LES DELITS : 6 points, jusqu'à 30 000 euros et 5 ans de prison. 

Conduire malgré une suspension de permis ou refuser de le remettre jusqu'à 4500 euros et deux ans d'emprisonnement. 

Plaques : Jusqu'à 3750 euros et 5 ans de prison lorsqu'elles sont fausses 

Fuite : Après un accident ou un refus d'obtempérer, jusqu'à 30 000 euros et 2 ans de prison. 

Blessures Involontaires : avec interruption temporaire de travail de moins de trois mois: jusqu'à 30 000 euros et 2 ans de prison


ALORS SOYEZ PRUDENTS 


Ray.


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## rolla (Aug 14, 2010)

Ray top work, i have used a free translation service, hope thats ok. 



New motoring penalties in France. 

The government needs money! ! ! ! New tarification of the collections of points. 

Small excess of speed: 1 point and 68 Euros or 135 Euros less than 19 km/o'clock. 

Big excess: 3 points and 135 Euros between 20 and 39 km/o'clock. 4 points and 135 Euros between 40 and 49 km/o'clock. 6 points and 1500 Euros max between 50 km/o'clock and more. Belt: 3 points and 135 Euros;

Telephone: 2 points and 135 Euros. 

Parking: 3 points and 135 Euros

Passing: 2 points, if you accelerate or refuse to squeeze to right when you are about to to be surpassed

3 points and 135 Euros when you double by the right without turn signal or too close to a pedestrian (or of a cyclist... Or without possibility to fold back you quickly or while doing a tail of fish or while you already are on the verge of to be got ahead of. 

Red fire or "STOP" : 4 points and 135 Euros

Blood alcohol level: 6 points of office, until 9000 Euros

Small blood alcohol level 135 Euros: Alcohol rate understand between 0,5 and 0.8g/l of blood is of 0.25 to 0.40 milligramme a liter of expired air. 

Big blood alcohol level until 4500 Euros. Liable offence equally of two years of prison max, for a rate of alcohol of at least 0.8 grams a liter of blood, is of 0.4 milligramme a liter of expired air. Penalty is identical in condition to drunkenness shows or if you refuse to subject to you the test. In case of relapses (inebriation state, of state of drunkenness shows or again refusal of the test), the penalty max is doubled (until 9000 Euros and 4 years of prison). 

Priority: 4 points and 135 Euros. 

Without turn signal: 3 points and 35 Euros, if you change direction or if you go out of a place of parking

Eclairage: 4 points and 135 Euros, if you circulate without lighting of night or by insufficient visibility

Security distance: 3 points and 135 Euros. 

Line continues: 1 points and 135 Euros, if you overlap it.. -- 3 points and 135 Euros: If you cross it. 

Feels forbidden: 4 points and 135 Euros. 

Expressway: 3 points and 35 Euros when you circulate on the band of stop of urgency 4 points and 135 Euros, if you half facts - turn or carry out a rear market. 

Detector of Radars: 2 points, until 1500 Euros THE DELITS: 6 points, until 30 000 Euros and 5 years of
prison. 

Drive despite a suspension of permit or refuse put back it until 4500 Euros and two years of imprisonment. 

Veneer: Until 3750 Euros and 5 years of prison when they are false

Escape: After an accident or a refusal to comply, until 30 000 Euros and 2 years of prison. 

Involuntary injuries: with temporary interruption of work of less than three months: until 30 000 Euros and 2 years of prison

THEN ARE PRUDENT

Ray.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*info*

More info here

Have a look here


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

I must confess that last week I took my CBR600f out for the last time prior to selling it.

Wow I got up to 145 mph, steady as a rock, 




then came this corner.


Dave p


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## Jented (Jan 12, 2010)

Dave.
M&S. have new,CLEAN, boxer shorts Y-fronts etc.at McArther? Glen outlet A38 Mansfield side of Jnc.28 M!. Go on,spoil yourself,because....."Your worth it".Lol
Gearjammer.
PS I lied about the 100 exhaust pipes,there where only 99!


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## emjaiuk (Jun 3, 2005)

Vennwood said:


> rolla said:
> 
> 
> > Hi, i was told that on french motorways you are timed between tolls, is this correct?
> ...


I must admit I've not noticed them on bridges, but I use the A26/A1 and/or the A16 about 4 times a month, and I've noticed a vast increase in what appears to be automatic mobile cameras at the side of the road. It may be coincidence, but whenever they are within a few k. of a toll booth, then there appears to be a large police, not douane, presence at the tolls.

They seem to use either outside cameras at ground level, connected to a car/estate car by cable, or a variety of hatchbacks/estate cars with either no rear window, or a large circular cutout in the rear window. None carry any markings at all, and I've yet to see an operator wearing a hi-vis jacket, even when setting up!!!!


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## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

Ray, I hope you don't mind if I correct the translation with my somewhat rusty French:

New motoring penalties in France.

The government needs money! ! ! ! New tarification of the withdrawal of points.

_[NB In France you start with points on your driving licence - when you have zero points left, your licence is suspended automatically. It is the opposite of the UK points system.]_

Small excess of speed: 1 point and 68 Euros or 135 Euros less than 19 km/h.

Big excess: 3 points and 135 Euros between 20 and 39 km/h. 4 points and 135 Euros between 40 and 49 km/h. 6 points and 1500 Euros max between 50 km/h and higher.

Seatbelt: 3 points and 135 Euros;

Telephone: 2 points and 135 Euros.

Parking: 3 points and 135 Euros

Overtaking: 2 points, if you accelerate or refuse to squeeze to right when you are about to to be overtaken

3 points and 135 Euros when you overtake on the right, or without indicating, or too close to a pedestrian (or a cyclist... Or without possibility to get back in lane quickly, or doing a fishtail [skid] or while you already about to be overtaken.

Failing to stop at a red traffic light or [mandatory] "STOP" sign [at a junction]: 4 points and 135 Euros

Blood alcohol level: 6 points penalty, maximum fine 9000 Euros

Minor blood alcohol level 135 Euros: Alcohol level between 0,5 and 0.8g/l of blood otherwise 0.25 to 0.40 milligramme / litre of breath.

Major blood alcohol level up to 4500 Euros. Liable on conviction of this offence to up to two years of prison, for a level of alcohol of at least 0.8 grams a liter of blood, otherwise 0.4 milligramme a liter of breath. The penalty is the same if you are in a state of obvious drunkenness or if you refuse to submit to the test. In case of reoffending (inebriation state, of state of obvious drunkenness or again refusal of the test), the upper penalty limit is doubled (up to 9000 Euros and 4 years of prison).

Failing to give priority to the right: 4 points and 135 Euros.

Failing to use indicators: 3 points and 35 Euros, if you change direction or if you pull out of a parking space

Headlights: 4 points and 135 Euros, if you drive without headlights at night or in poor visibility

Tailgating: 3 points and 135 Euros.

Solid white line in the centre of the road: 1 point and 135 Euros, if you overlap it. -- 3 points and 135 Euros: If you cross it.

No entry / one-way street offences: 4 points and 135 Euros.

Motorway /Autoroute : 3 points and 35 Euros when you drive on the hard shoulder; 4 points and 135 Euros, if you do a u-turn or drive in reverse.

Using / having a radar detector: 2 points, or up to 1500 Euros

OFFENCES / MISDEMEANOURS: 6 points, up to 30 000 Euros and 5 years of prison.

Driving while your driving licence is suspended, or refusing to surrender your licence, up to 4500 Euros and two years of imprisonment.

Number plates: Up to 3750 Euros and 5 years of prison if they are false

failing to stop: After an accident or a refusal to comply with a order [by a law enforcement officer], up to 30 000 Euros and 2 years of prison.

[Causing as a result of a road traffic offence, presumably] Involuntary injuries: [resulting in the injured party experiencing] temporary interruption of work of less than three months: up to 30 000 Euros and 2 years of prison

BE CAREFUL

e&oe

SD


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## brianinfrance (Aug 15, 2010)

*speed traps*

I work for the Gendarmerie from time to time and ask daft questions about stuff like speed traps and I am told the priorities depend on instructions from on high, but you can always count on extra mobile radar and binocular checks on bank holiday weekends. Local radio news (e.g. FranceBleuLimousin) gives a report on the 8 a.m. news of where the mobile patrols will be. Not all Gendarmes have the high levels of training for setting up traps and mistakes are quite frequent. The administration of speeding tickets is done in an overworked, low-morale centre in Rennes, who are notorious for mis-handling fines. Under normal circumstances traffic is a fairly low priority acivity for the Gendarmerie who have a multitude of other functions. Drink-driving prevention is a big one and Gendarmeries often end a day's patrol with a little random breathalizing not far from the Gendarmerie barracks, wherever it may be. Traffic accidents in France are far more numerous than UK. the licencing is privatised and not always rigorous. The French are still learning about how to use roundabouts and many still work on the basis of _Priorite a droite. Dangerous! Thei Gendarmerie version of high viz is reflective electric blue waterproofs with reflective bands. Cars are usually estates, but not always marked. As far as I can tell the Gendarmerie do not have the registration recognition vehicles as in the UK but patrol vehicles carry computer equipment as standard. Specialist vehicles are usually ordinary commercials converted by dedicated police( not Gendarmerie) workshops_


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## brianinfrance (Aug 15, 2010)

*speed traps*

I work for the Gendarmerie from time to time and ask daft questions about stuff like speed traps and I am told the priorities depend on instructions from on high, but you can always count on extra mobile radar and binocular checks on bank holiday weekends. Local radio news (e.g. FranceBleuLimousin) gives a report on the 8 a.m. news of where the mobile patrols will be. Not all Gendarmes have the high levels of training for setting up traps and mistakes are quite frequent. The administration of speeding tickets is done in an overworked, low-morale centre in Rennes, who are notorious for mis-handling fines. Under normal circumstances traffic is a fairly low priority acivity for the Gendarmerie who have a multitude of other functions. Drink-driving prevention is a big one and Gendarmeries often end a day's patrol with a little random breathalizing not far from the Gendarmerie barracks, wherever it may be. Traffic accidents in France are far more numerous than UK. the licencing is privatised and not always rigorous. The French are still learning about how to use roundabouts and many still work on the basis of _Priorite a droite. Dangerous! Thei Gendarmerie version of high viz is reflective electric blue waterproofs with reflective bands. Cars are usually estates, but not always marked. As far as I can tell the Gendarmerie do not have the registration recognition vehicles as in the UK but patrol vehicles carry computer equipment as standard. Specialist vehicles are usually ordinary commercials converted by dedicated police( not Gendarmerie) workshops_


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

rolla said:


> Feels forbidden: 4 points and 135 Euros.


I for one will steer clear of any forbidden feels when on holiday.


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## quiraing (Feb 12, 2007)

Please also bear in mind that in France if the speed limit is 50 K per hour it means 50 k per hour. Not 51 or 52. This also applies to other speed limits. The French police do not make allowances for speedo errors. Best to drive under the speed limit.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*steady*



DTPCHEMICALS said:


> I must confess that last week I took my CBR600f out for the last time prior to selling it.
> 
> Wow I got up to 145 mph, steady as a rock,
> 
> ...


I passed 175mph on a couple of occasions.

Far too fast, even where legal.

TM


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*speed*

I like these


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

The straights were not long enough to get a higher speed.

Rockingham race circuit

Changed cbr for newer Kawasaki zx6r

Dave p


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## Hobbyfan (Jul 3, 2010)

Hooligans!


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

As long as you stick to your Rappels you can't go far wrong, just ask Pusser. 8) 

pete


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