# Fiat/Peugeot new shape van conversion (Scuttle - Judder)



## Broko

Knowing what you now know about juddergate scuttlegate Fiat fobbing off etc would you buy a Motorhome on a new Fiat or Peugeot van?
If you've bought one in the last year do you regret it?
If you had the old Fiat / Peugeot van do you wish you'd kept it?


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## Grizzly

Yes, we would buy another new van based on the Fiat X250 camper chassis.

The scuttle leak has not prevented us enjoying the van over the last year and, now it is fixed and not leaking, we do not anticipate it doing so over the next x years. We've had frustrations and felt angry while dealing with Fiat but really believe that corner has been turned. All we wanted them to do from Day 1 was to acknowledge the problem and work to right it. I think they might have learnt something from the experience which will feed into future design- at least as regards customers services.

We have a van with a chassis designed for motorhomes so giving a smooth ride and eliminating other possible hassles, we have a cab that is comfortable and quiet and we have an engine that, I'm told by the driver, drives much more comfortably than either our car or the 2 vans we had previously. 

G


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## UncleNorm

Morning!!

I have no judder, yet always reverse uphill to park.

I might have water getting onto the engine but I still have the remaining warranty time to wait for a fix.

I enjoy driving the X2/50. Auntie Sandra enjoys being a passenger! It makes for a very comfortable motorhome. 

Most recent figures show 27.2, 27.8 and 29.3 mpg. We have a month in France to enjoy, less racing around, so I expect 30+mpg.

I followed Scuttlegate from the beginning, then we went out in November and bought our current MH on the X2/50, eyes wide open!


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## Zebedee

I'm with the two good looking members above.    

Which car, van or "vehicle" doesn't have a list of "known issues" anyway?

A rhetorical question BTW - have a look on any of the dedicated forums. There ain't a lot to choose between any of them.


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## 96299

I`ve voted NO.Once bitten by something/someone,thats it,I go elsewhere.
I have been back and forwards to FiART so many times,I`ve lost count.So,as far as FiART are concerned,it`s game over.  

steve


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## carolgavin

I voted wish I had never bought _this_ one in the first place!!! We were like everyone else in that all we wanted was an acknowledgement that the fault existed and that they would fix all of it, not just the bits they felt like fixing. After months of hassle, van seems nearly there, for us now to have problem with dealer and battery. has taken sheen off owning lovely new motorhome.
That said I would buy another Peugeot but only if it didn't have the current problems as it is a great drive and far superior to previous incarnations. Bit of a mixed message I know :roll: :roll:


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## wenlock

I would explore the market more than I did and take advice from those who know, on this forum for example.
I would definitely look at other alternatives especially Ford and Renault, I think Mercs are too expensive for us.
I have already stated else where on the forum that I would not buy another Fat, I still feel this way.
My van is less than a year old and I have had more faults on it,chassis and habitation combined, than on all my previous vehicles together in 43 years of driving. I know I can't blame Fiat for the habitation faults but the attitude and the fact that I am now on my third Fiat dealer is what annoys most.
I admit some of them were minor and I include the recalls due to incovenience caused.
Other vehicles will no doubt have their faults but once bitten twice shy.
I will see how my latest set of problems are dealt with before I am inclined to think about thawing out !
Paul


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## Telbell

A useful Post Boko- provided everyone affected votes. Keep "Bumping" if necessary.


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## EdsMH

I voted yes for similar reasons to Grizzly & Uncle Norm. I knew of the water problem before we bought and sprayed with WD40 before the fixes were applied so no corrosion. 

I get the occasional 'whump' on start up but no real juddering yet as I use the zero throttle method (may happen if I can find a steep enough slope though) and the ground clearance for the exhaust is poor. All recalls done and the van drives beautifully.

It is by far the nicest motorhome base chassis I have driven. Torque from the 160 engine is superb; ergonomics good resulting in no aches on a 400 mile virtually non stop trip; not too thirsty and getting better with miles; good service intervals. In all honesty we have not had anything on the chassis so far that has stopped us using the vehicle in all weathers whenever we have wanted.

However, Fiat's customer service has been poor and really needs to improve. I'm not sure the camper assist is worth having from our experience with them and most of their dealers semm ill prepared to deal with motorhomes. The exception being Stormont's at Dunstable who were good but it was a bit of a trek.

So I repeat, yes I would buy another X250 but will watch what else comes on the market

Ed


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## GerryD

Yes, definitely yes!!!
Had the scuttle fixed, do not have any judder. One of the nicest vehicles that I have ever driven.
Gerry


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## eddied

Buon giorno, in defence of Sevel(FIAT, Citroen, Peugeot) if you discard them dont you severely restrict your choice of UK/European motorhome conversions?
saluti,
eddied


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## Telbell

> if you discard them dont you severely restrict your choice of UK/European motorhome conversions?


Most definitely eddied. As I've said on other threads the only Layout we really want is on a Fiat. Do you compromise on layout to get a "safe" base vehicle (is there one?) or take a risk with the base vehicle to get the "best" layout?


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## Telbell

Still only 21 voted.

WHERE ARE YOU ALL?
(sound like Delia :lol: )


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## carolgavin

Telbell said:


> Still only 21 voted.
> 
> WHERE ARE YOU ALL?
> (sound like Delia :lol: )


You don't look like Delia, you are much better looking hon :lol: :lol:


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## Telbell

> you are much better looking hon


You've been peeping


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## carolgavin

Telbell said:


> you are much better looking hon
> 
> 
> 
> You've been peeping
Click to expand...

Sorry........................................not


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## rowley

She has now got a scuttle that fits correctly and an engine cover.. I am glad to see the back of the duct tape.


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## Broko

The survey has three no's in effect as both the "wisk I'd not bought" and "wish I had old van"are also negative responses. What is alarming/worrying is the number who had wish they'd not bought the new van. (a fifth up to now). If you add these to the no's most people would not buy a new fiat or peugeot (or citreon I suppose).
When someone is spending £30-£50 on a van and they wish they'd never bought it, you cannot help but to feel for them.


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## suffolkian

We voted yes because we really enjoy driving our Fiat based M/H. It does exactly what is required of it. It's a joy to drive and a few weeks of duct tape at the bottom of the windscreen did not diminish our enjoyment of the vehicle. We didn't get up early each morning so that we could be miserable for longer worrying about minor things that were soon sorted.
We had all the 'updates' done by Desira of Diss and we could not be more satisfied by their service.

Two proud Fiat owners


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## 107925

I bought my van knowing about the water ingress problem, but the judder at that time was only just gaining momentum, so I didn't see it as an issue to affect the purchase. As it transpired, on my particular van, what judder there is, can be controlled quite easily. The water ingress is just a few drops here and there, as the fix has been professionally applied.

I've had a brand new Merc car back and forth to crap dealers and can see there are design faults in all price ranges. There's also plenty of bad press about all the main base vehicles for motorhomes, but the Fiat gives the most choice. I easily get backache in the Merc, but the Ducato is so much better in terms of seat comfort. I've recently done a couple of three-hour journeys non-stop and my back didn't ache at all. 

I know people harp on about the Renault, but choice is very limited for van conversions, I don't like their overall look, and it's an older technology chassis. Mercs are so much more expensive, that it seems reasonable to accept that for about ten grand less, the Fiat isn't going to be quite as good. However, I really don't need whatever all that extra money would bring. 

It seems the Fiat has been spoiled by crap customer service and often the Fiat dealer network. I've yet to put this to the test, so I reserve the right to change my mind. But at the moment, I have absolutely no regrets in buying my Ducato van.

Shaun


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## Telbell

> When someone is spending £30-£50 on a van and they wish they'd never bought it, you cannot help but to feel for them


Of course Broko no one couild argue with that.
I think the Poll should be allowed to run a while yet though-there must be many more x2/50 owners on here who haven't yet registered a vote.

(an extra dimension of course would be to ask those who HAVEN'T got one whether they would, in the light of existing issues)


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## sailor

I voted yes.

I have actually had 2 new peugeots, the first temporarily (I wont go into details about why here, have done so on an earlier thread)

Both were the 3 litre, and are superb to drive, quiet, very good ride and immensely powerful. The first did give me some engine problems - lack of power caused by faulty butterfly valve. The issue here was that peugeot took a month to get the parts. 

Neither had any juddering problems. Both leaked water through the scuttle, but I have fixed the new one myself with sealant around the windscreen base. It took about 10 minutes and is now OK.

So not perfect, but very good overall and a deal better, in my view, than the Sprinter I had before.


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## rowley

If you have dealer problems may I recommend Sherwood Iveco near J28 of the M1. They had several motorhomes in for repair on the day that my Twin was done. Very pleasant and efficient.


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## Broko

bump


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## averhamdave

I voted yes because as soon as I get in the vehicle (130 multijet) and drive it I forget about what have been fairly minor issues to me. I've now got the engine coer (but only after having demanded one) and I can control the "judder". It's a nicer vehicle to drive than any of the multitude of cars we've owned! 

There is no comparison with my old 2.8, it is a vastly superior vehicle.

A friend manages a large fleet of hire vans, a mix but predominatly Sprinters and he'll tell you dismaying stories aout them also. When I was looking round at my options before purchasing the Fiat based Autotral I had considered Renault - he was horrified at the suggestion and quickly talked me out it.


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## Telbell

> I can control the "judder".


Can you give us chapter and verse ....dave?
exactly how?

and could you have controlled it up the long hill as described by colin in the "big" thread"?
here: 


> tried to reverse the 150 or so yards back to the main road but gave up after 25 yards


Ta


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## averhamdave

Sorry, poor choice of words! I can't control the judder but with clutch / accelerator co-ordination I can minimise it and have no problem reversing any distance at all.

Last summer I took a wrong turn in Caan city centre down a narrow street that tapered to a point of about the width of a moped! The situation required me to reverse up what was a fairly steep hill for maybe 300 yards. What an experience! The van was only a couple of weeks old then and I hadn't heard of "clutch judder" at that time. I do remember some judder and most certainly remember smelling the burning friction plates but was so pleased to have extracted myself I didn't really care!

At a recent visit to the Fiat dealer for recall work I did insist that this juddering characteristic was noted on my paperwork just in case. I also phoned Fiat Customer Care as per previous advise on here but they had never heard of such a problem!!!!!!!!!!


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## 115229

Hi
I've had my Brand new Bessacarr E460 on the new Fiat 250 chassis since the end of April.
The build quality of the habitation sid eis appalling and after nearly 4 months, the dealer (Marquis) still haven't got it right and in fact have given up on some items that are just so bad, Bessacarr haven't even replied to my E-mails.
The vehicle side as been as bad, the day I took delivery I complained that the vehicle pulled to the left, Marquis and Fiat phobed me off with claims that it was the road camber and in one instance I was told that as the vehicle was Italian, it was set up do drive on the right hand side of the road, so what did I expect.
Only after writing directly to the MD at Marquis did the Customer Services Manager (Allan Doherty, who I must say has tried to be helpful) come and test drive the vehicle itself. Consequently it was taken back to a Fiat dealer who have now had it for three weeks and still don't know what the problem is.
The way I feel at the present time,
Will I buy another Fiat? NO
Will I buy another Bessacarr? NO
Will I deal with Marquis again? PROBABLY NOT
Ah well, the joys of motorhomeing
Cheers
Oldboy


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## averhamdave

If your case wasn't so serious I'd be laughing!

I'm not suprised the Bessacar bit has disappointed you but as for the Fiat being designed to drive on the right hand side as its Italian! You couldn't make it up!

I've done 12k in my Fiat now in 13 months and have been delighted with the vehicle but obviously there will be bad ones out there as we keep hearing.

I'll probably trade in next year for new and if I can't afford a Merc based m/home then it will definitely be a Fiat. There is no way I would entertain a Renault or Transit, sooner give up!


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## bigfoot

Originally I wanted my Autotrail on the Sprinter chassis,but was informed by Auto Trail that they were only building on Fiats for 2008/9.
The FIAT base workes out at approx £3k less than the Merc. 
So is that the reason they are being used?


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## rowley

Oldboy wrote-- Bessacarr haven't even replied to my E-mails.

I find this to be unusual. People on this Forum have found Swift Group to be very responsive and helpful.


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## Telbell

> The FIAT base workes out at approx £3k less than the Merc.
> So is that the reason they are being used?


Without a doubt bigfoot-that's what it's all about and that's why they moe or less control the narket.

BTW-as you Post on here and O&A have you considered helping to co-ordinate the recently suggested campaign re engineer report, funding etc???


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## Telbell

> People on this Forum have found Swift Group to be very responsive and helpful


but only to some extent-we still await info on their May meeting with Fiat.


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## Telbell

> People on this Forum have found Swift Group to be very responsive and helpful


but only to some extent-we still await info on their May meeting with Fiat.


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## ICDSUN

Hi

I would not buy on a Fiat again, as a total newcomer to Motorhomes we did do our homework on the habitation side and happily we did get it 95% right 1st time, we assumed that as Fiat being the leading supplier it was getting it right most of the time.   , we don't worry about it or let it stop our enjoyment, interestingly Burstner are launching some new models on alternative chassis so we will see if others follow suit.

The total lack of concern that they have shown to us and others, evading issues with the usual "we've not seen/heard of that before" or "It's within tolerance or parameters" is beyond forgiveness.

I have always judged companies and individuals by their reaction to when things go wrong, and I don't expect things to go wrong very often given the tolerances and technology available to manufacturers today.

Dealer we bought from 100%
Fiat 25%, for answering the phone with a nice young lady

Fiat have produced a flawed product in some key areas, yes it drives nice etc etc, that does not recover them IMHO

A motorhome is not a complicated engineering fete, put simply it is a room on wheels with a fridge,cooker,table and chairs, toilet/shower and a bed, as most share the utility products from 1 or 2 manufacturers the converter is responsible for little more than the room structure.
Yet we still hear of real horror stories with the conversion part, and almost immediately a number of posts appear defending these manufacturers and the crap they have fobbed off on some poor soul.

If people continue to accept second or third best from manufacturers thats all we will get, its not a dealers job to fix defective manufactured goods, they should stand firm also when they get crap delivered.

It would be interesting to hear from a dealer or manufacturer what procedures they use when faced with a defective product at PDI, given that the customer has been waiting several months for their shiny new motorhome, the silence will be damning I feel, but I am willing to be astounded.

Chris


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## CliveMott

The problem is that Fiats are the cheapest for the converters to purchase and as such make the cheapest motorhomes. This means there are thousands of people who have invested their childrens inheritance in things that privately they might not have done with hindsight. But no one likes egg on face so few are prepared to admit they made a mistake and should have bought a Renault or Ford or Iveco or even a Merc. Also highlighting the deficiencies will reduce the second hand value of their investment. 
Having a new Fiat/Peugeot at the moment is similar to being the owner of a prestige 4X4.

But if you look back at the Fiat debacle regarding 5th gear problems and now this is replaced by water ingress and variable at best and suicidal at worst reversing characteristics on the new vehicle one wonders if Fiat can ever design and build a complete vehicle correctly. The numbers who have reported problems to MMM is very significant.
But I agree it drives well. But what else do you expect from a Ferrari? Reliability??
C.


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## 96299

ICDSUN said:


> Hi
> 
> I would not buy on a Fiat again, as a total newcomer to Motorhomes we did do our homework on the habitation side and happily we did get it 95% right 1st time, we assumed that as Fiat being the leading supplier it was getting it right most of the time.   , we don't worry about it or let it stop our enjoyment, interestingly Burstner are launching some new models on alternative chassis so we will see if others follow suit.
> 
> The total lack of concern that they have shown to us and others, evading issues with the usual "we've not seen/heard of that before" or "It's within tolerance or parameters" is beyond forgiveness.
> 
> I have always judged companies and individuals by their reaction to when things go wrong, and I don't expect things to go wrong very often given the tolerances and technology available to manufacturers today.
> 
> Dealer we bought from 100%
> Fiat 25%, for answering the phone with a nice young lady
> 
> Fiat have produced a flawed product in some key areas, yes it drives nice etc etc, that does not recover them IMHO
> 
> A motorhome is not a complicated engineering fete, put simply it is a room on wheels with a fridge,cooker,table and chairs, toilet/shower and a bed, as most share the utility products from 1 or 2 manufacturers the converter is responsible for little more than the room structure.
> Yet we still hear of real horror stories with the conversion part, and almost immediately a number of posts appear defending these manufacturers and the crap they have fobbed off on some poor soul.
> 
> If people continue to accept second or third best from manufacturers thats all we will get, its not a dealers job to fix defective manufactured goods, they should stand firm also when they get crap delivered.
> 
> It would be interesting to hear from a dealer or manufacturer what procedures they use when faced with a defective product at PDI, given that the customer has been waiting several months for their shiny new motorhome, the silence will be damning I feel, but I am willing to be astounded.
> 
> Chris


A good post ICDSUN,and I totally agree with alot you say in it. 

steve


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

ICDSUN said:


> Hi
> It would be interesting to hear from a dealer or manufacturer what procedures they use when faced with a defective product at PDI, given that the customer has been waiting several months for their shiny new motorhome, the silence will be damning I feel, but I am willing to be astounded.
> 
> Chris


If we *ever* had a new MH delivered and on inspection we found it not up to rectifiable standard (ie it had no major defects) it would go sharply backwards to whence it came.

Rather dissapoint a customer than have major disasters later.

Peter


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## ICDSUN

JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> ICDSUN said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> It would be interesting to hear from a dealer or manufacturer what procedures they use when faced with a defective product at PDI, given that the customer has been waiting several months for their shiny new motorhome, the silence will be damning I feel, but I am willing to be astounded.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> If we *ever* had a new MH delivered and on inspection we found it not up to rectifiable standard (ie it had no major defects) it would go sharply backwards to whence it came.
> 
> Rather dissapoint a customer than have major disasters later.
> 
> Peter
Click to expand...

Peter

It is good to hear your stance, if others followed this simple rule we would have a better product, as a consequence dealers would enjoy realistic margins so they could share this new found wealth with us:lol:

For all manufacturers you as one of their dealers should not receive a product that has defects anyway, I recall when we were looking at prospective MH's with no prior knowledge of good/bad makes, we noticed that some trim and a couple of handles were loose on one new specimen, we were told "it must have worked loose in transit" is more than comical on a motorhome given that it will spend some time on the road, dependent on make, it's journey on the back of a transporter must have been more than it could cope with, that is bad manufacturing process, it can be put right quickly but still needs a tech for 5-10 minutes at a loss of revenue

Good on you Peter, I wish you continued success, I'll let you go and count your money now :lol: :lol:

Chris


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## Telbell

> If we ever had a new MH delivered and on inspection we found it not up to rectifiable standard (ie it had no major defects) it would go sharply backwards to whence it came.


Peter-you have extolled the vitues of Swift-and you do sell them I believe? And Swift are on an x2/50? And Swift have been know to have "judder problems" (like many others)

So do you test them for reverse judder at PDI-and how many have gone "sharply backwards" to whence they came- and did they go uphill? :wink: :lol:

Part of question tongue in cheek-part serious :wink:


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## zulurita

I seem to be in the minority of 1!

I have the same model as my previous motorhome and whilst I like the new features on my Cheyenne 660 I prefered my old Fiat to this one. Yes it drives well but it does NOT reverse well. I have been VERY ANXIOUS in some situations when reversing.

Fiat have only referred me to the dealer and they are not in a position to rectify the juddering!!

Andy Stothert is on his 3rd gear box I believe!!!


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## fatbast

would'nt buy a fiat ducato van either the new model or the old. they're not very good vans with dire residuals! (i've run a few in business, and found fords/renaults better in most respects. mercs are good but pricey for parts and the autos are troublesome)...therefore won't buy an expensive motorhome based on possibly the worst base vehicle.


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## 1happy

*Fiat poll*



JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> If we *ever* had a new MH delivered and on inspection we found it not up to rectifiable standard (ie it had no major defects) it would go sharply backwards to whence it came.
> 
> Rather dissapoint a customer than have major disasters later.
> 
> Peter


Great to hear a dealers point of view  
Where do you stand on the reported issues regarding the X250 (as mentioned on this forum by owners) :?:

Also do you intervene for your customers with Fiat customer services :roll: in getting answers to their concerns.

Not having a dig just interested in your response given the nature of the poll.
Regards Catherine

PS Now to try & vote :? when I figure it out I will put what & why in a separate post


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## 1happy

*cant find the poll??*

Hi Broko 
I can't find anywhere to click on to cast my vote. 

Which would be ............... I wish we'd never bought a Fiat.  
Mainly because of the abysmal customer services treating concerned owners like they are mushrooms :roll:

The faults experienced by us & others may not be universal (but do exist!) 
Fiat & Peugeot should be ashamed of making these blunders & not rectifying them, after a year or more :!:

Oh & any current move to answer concern's could be because of the upcoming NEC
*Finally does anyone know if Andy Stothert is safe & well.* :?:

Catherine


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