# Fined 900€ for dog on the beach in Spain



## haylingchrist

We recently received by recorded delivery at home two fines of 450€ - one for having our dog off the lead and the other for not carrying the dog's papers on a rural Spanish beach (no no-dogs signs).

It's easy to say 'just ignore it' but what if our ID is taken in Spain in the future? Or maybe it's enough cash to pursue in the UK - we don't want the bailiffs round or a county court judgment.

It sounds barking, but the local advice we're currently getting sounds like it won't be practical to challenge from the UK.

I'm not inclined to rush back to Spain if we can be fined so much in such an arbitrary way (and for what else?), but any practical advice on how to approach this would be appreciated.

Chris


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## rayc

How did they know your address? Were you approached by a dog warden / police officer and gave them the information or were issued with a fixed penalty ticket?
What further details do you have - it could be a scam!


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## Zebedee

rayc said:


> How did they know your address? Were you approached by a dog warden / police officer and gave them the information or were issued with a fixed penalty ticket?
> What further details do you have - it could be a scam!


My thoughts exactly Ray, and the same question I nearly asked last night.

If he was *not *approached it almost certainly is a scam.

If he *was *approached the issue would have been sorted out there and then I would think.

My suggestion Chris, would be to do nothing and wait for a second demand.

If it doesn't appear you will know it was a scam.

If it does you can apologise for not replying to the first one and politely ask for some sort of verification - like a phone number of the local police station (in Spain) which you could verify through International Directory Enquiries before phoning to check if the fine came from them or one of their associates.

Hope this helps.


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## lookback

I suggest that you contact your MEP and give him all the documentation together with your concerns and ask him to investigate.
Ian


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## Rapide561

*Spanish fine*

Hi

speak to the Spanish Embassy in London - maybe fax them the dox etc to clarify authenticity.

http://spain.embassyhomepage.com/

R


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## Grizzly

Heaven forbid that they sent your van registration number to the DVLA and the DVLA gave them your address.

If there is any danger that this happened then I hope you'll take the matter as far as you can with anyone who'll listen.

This surelyshould not happen whether the Spaniards were police or scammers.

G


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## JockandRita

Grizzly said:


> Heaven forbid that they sent your van registration number to the DVLA and the DVLA gave them your address.
> 
> If there is any danger that this happened then I hope you'll take the matter as far as you can with anyone who'll listen.
> 
> This surelyshould not happen whether the Spaniards were police or scammers.
> 
> G


Good point there Grizzly. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest that DVLA would do such a thing.

*Chris*, all of the above advice is good, however, Russells link to the embassy followed through with a phone call, may give results sooner, rather than later.

The best of luck with this,

Jock.


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## Detourer

Before jumping to conclusions there may be a simple reason or way that the info reached the UK.........i.e. earlier post :roll:

_Back in March Jill was stopped by a Guardia (who spoke no english) while walking our dog on the beach a few miles North of Tarifa.

Last week we recieved 2 recorded letters each containing a fine. One apparently for walking a dog off the lead, the other for 'lacking canine sanitary record'.

Not so bad, except each fine is €450. No that's not a typo - nine hundred euros total!

It's not exactly what you'd call an 'urban' beach though it's probably a 'natural park'. There's no 'no dogs' signs, though there are some telling you vehicles, taking plants, tents, litter, etc are banned.

Just to put a truly Daliesq twist on the whole thing it's common to see cows there and several of the kite school instructors routinely have dogs running loose on th beach.

Any comments or advice welcome..._

Then.............

_The Guardia asked for ID and Jill wrote down her name and address as she had none on her - It's pretty common round there - there's a lot of problems with smuggling, illegal immigrants and a popular way to hassle the wild campers. _

And then..........from me.

_They may not bother you in the UK. But the WILL if you are back in Spain and ever have to give your details. Any time you are asked for details. For example Guadia in Malaga region have PDA's that link in seconds to center DB. Also anywhere you have to show passport.

And if anyone tells you this will not happen....... two weeks ago, returning from Morocco, I "declared" my dog. This involved a comp check which ended up with me having to pay two outstanding fines [parking] from months ago, Plus 30% more, on the spot!! _..

..


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## Zebedee

So the recorded delivery came as no surprise after all then. 8O 

Shame, but I'd say he's stuffed good and proper if he ever wants to visit Spain again. Pretty draconian though, however you look at it, and I wonder how many locals get the same fine?? 8O 


Detourer, your experience is a salutary warning for anyone who ignores a parking ticket or similar while abroad.

We used to be able to get away with it, but "Big Brother" has arrived it seems. :roll: 

Bloody computers - they should be banned!! :evil: 8O


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## eddied

Ciao Tutti, told anyone who cared to listen 30 years ago that this would happen. Once the Brussels Buroprats started the databases juggernaut rolling, there was no stopping it. I would be very surprised if the DVLA DIDN'T pass on this information if requested by another EU judicial or police authority. Once you're booked, it will be pursued even if it takes a few years to work thru the system, especially if we're.talking fines/revenue. saluti, eddied


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## 107990

More practical advice. Google a company called Castles in a place called Sabinillas. This is a village about 20kms before Gibraltar. I don't think they are lawyers but like a para legal people who do all sorts of admin in Spain. They are a mainly british practice and did some jobs for me down there. If you want some more advice have a look at a website called ManilvaLife.com you will also be able to find references to Castles on the forum there. I am sure you would be able to send them the papers and they will be able to advise you.


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## Sonesta

Hi Chris, 

Sorry to hear of your hefty and unexpected fine - it beggars belief really and I can only imagine the quandary this has put you in?

As I was reading your post and all the replies a thought crossed my mind and I thought what a pity the Portugese/Spanish police were not so quick to act and be so responsive when little Madeline Mccann was first abducted? Had they been as quick to act re her disappearance as they apparently are towards situations like this, then who knows how different the outcome may have been for Madeline and her family? If the police had been as vigilante regarding her disappearance as they appear to be over their dog laws etc then the abductor just might have been apprehended within the first few hours of snatching her instead of being allowed the head start he was inevitably given by the blundering police investigation!

I know the police have a job to do and keeping beaches clean from dog fouling etc is an important one for many reasons. Let's be frank and accept that dog excrement can pose potential health risks to humans (children especially) and so I can see the need to ensure dogs are kept on a lead or even banned from certain locations but is there any need for such extreme measures I ask? Personally I think not and I think warning signs prohibiting dogs should be prominently displayed wherever the authorities want to ban or restrict dogs from being walked. Trouble is, if there are no signs erected then how are folk to know dogs whether dogs are banned or not and I cannot see how any court of law could enforce any penalties relating to such an offence?

I think I would do what Russell suggested and ring the Spanish Embassy and ask for their advice.

Good luck.

Sue


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## Detourer

I think that any connection between getting nicked for a loose dog on a beach and the Madeline case [or any other, is pushing it a bit………]

Once reported I would think that the police have very little ongoing interest…..and it costs some council office worker nothing to push a few buttons. I can't see some Euro MP, embassies or whoever giving much help or getting very excited about it…... Frankly I don't think we can have it all ways. Visiting another country does not absolve us from common laws or simple behaviour.

Bottom line……your dog runs and/or dumps on a beach. You get caught……tough.

Just think if it had been in the UK, it would have been a £2000 [2530euro] fine.

The Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005
Under this Act, you could be fined up to £1,000 for breaching dog control orders. Local authorities can make orders for standard offences including: failing to remove dog faeces, not keeping a dog on a lead, not putting and keeping a dog on a lead when directed to do so, permitting a dog to enter land from which dogs are excluded and taking more than a specified number of dogs on to land etc etc……….

Anyway……better things to do…….packing the cool-box for an all night on the beach tonight it's……………. "el Noche de San Juan"………..best watch where I walk.

PS….I have11 dogs and that is one hell of a lot of "stuff" to clear-


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## sallytrafic

Do I note an air of righteous indignation in some of the posts? If someone on holiday broke one of our minor laws wouldn't you want our authorities to pursue and fine the miscreant?


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## bognormike

I don't think Chris said that he was "ticketed" for actually letting his dog crap on the beach, just that it was on the beach, and without a lead. It sounds to me like a "jobsworth" was going round looking for people (maybe just "foreigners"?) with dogs & rather than asking them to put it on a lead, or remove it from the beach, (as would be reasonable to assume) followed him back to his 'van & took the registration details. 

Certainly in England, there are signs on beaches, or thereabouts, saying no dogs (at certain times of the year), or no dogs without a lead, and it is normally a reasonable get-out of any penalties if there are no signs. 

I realise that ignorance of laws is no excuse, but at least one should have some kind of warning?


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## eddied

Ciao tutti,
bognormike, you have unwittingly hit the nail on the head. I realise that many people in GB have no real understanding of the simple but fundamental diffference between European legal systems, and the Anglo Saaxon common law system. The MP who recently resigned had begun to understand though. In Anglo Saxon common law, despite many changes over the years, you can presume that anything is permitted that hasn't been specifically prohibited. In European Napoleonic Penal and Civil law systems, everything is prohibited that has not been specifically permitted by law.
Of course it is more complex than this, but you get the idea. The ex MP explained it rather well by pointing out that in GB unless there was a sign saying 'dont walk on the grass' you would assume that you could walk on the grass. In Europe, unless there was a sign saying 'you may walk on the grass if you wish' you would have to assume that it was prohibited.
saluti, eddied


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## eddied

Ciao tutti,
bognormike, you have unwittingly hit the nail on the head. I realise that many people in GB have no real understanding of the simple but fundamental diffference between European legal systems, and the Anglo Saaxon common law system. The MP who recently resigned had begun to understand though. In Anglo Saxon common law, despite many changes over the years, you can presume that anything is permitted that hasn't been specifically prohibited. In European Napoleonic Penal and Civil law systems, everything is prohibited that has not been specifically permitted by law.
Of course it is more complex than this, but you get the idea. The ex MP explained it rather well by pointing out that in GB unless there was a sign saying 'dont walk on the grass' you would assume that you could walk on the grass. In Europe, unless there was a sign saying 'you may walk on the grass if you wish' you would have to assume that it was prohibited.
saluti, eddied


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## Penquin

1. I am not a dog owner!

2. in the UK these come under "byelaws" I believe

3. there are beaches her in the SW where dogs are banned all year round and others where they are only banned for part of year eg Easter to October, there are no signs at many beaches - it is just a "byelaw"

4. sadly if you were approached and gave them the info it is not surprising that you received the fines if they were what would be charged, it may seem a little steep but if that is the local law..........

5. do just check it's not a scam, it is not unheard of for scams to look very official

6. DVLA will apparently give out the information about registered keeper to anyone who asks if they have "reasonable cause" and apparently (according to the BBC) they rarely if ever check. That's how clamping companies succeed and how you can now be fined by a photograph only for eg infringing a bus lane in London

7. sadly i think the Eurocrats will hound you for many years - and will prbably keep on adding to the charge IF it is genuine, so check it sooner rather than later

8. what would have happened if they were not your dogs - would you still have been fined?

9. I approve of the previous two replies - that is what has been said about towing using an A frame in Europe, because it is not specifically approved, it is illegal c/w UK where it is not mentioned as being illegal (and I'm not going on to that discussion!)


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## Sonesta

Detourer said:


> I think that any connection between getting nicked for a loose dog on a beach and the Madeline case [or any other, is pushing it a bit………]
> 
> Once reported I would think that the police have very little ongoing interest…..and it costs some council office worker nothing to push a few buttons. I can't see some Euro MP, embassies or whoever giving much help or getting very excited about it…... Frankly I don't think we can have it all ways. Visiting another country does not absolve us from common laws or simple behaviour.
> 
> Bottom line……your dog runs and/or dumps on a beach. You get caught……tough.
> 
> Just think if it had been in the UK, it would have been a £2000 [2530euro] fine.
> 
> The Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005
> Under this Act, you could be fined up to £1,000 for breaching dog control orders. Local authorities can make orders for standard offences including: failing to remove dog faeces, not keeping a dog on a lead, not putting and keeping a dog on a lead when directed to do so, permitting a dog to enter land from which dogs are excluded and taking more than a specified number of dogs on to land etc etc……….
> 
> Anyway……better things to do…….packing the cool-box for an all night on the beach tonight it's……………. "el Noche de San Juan"………..best watch where I walk.
> 
> PS….I have11 dogs and that is one hell of a lot of "stuff" to clear-


Hi Ray,

I dont think I was pushing it a bit in my example re the Madeline case and although it may have sounded a tad extreme (I'll give you that lol) I do think that sometimes far lesser offences seem to have a far better legal system set up to deal with them than the more serious ones! That was the brunt of what I was trying to say and I was and still am very disappointed with how the Portugese police handled this innocent little child's abduction and I know if I were her mummy I would find it so hard to forgive them for not doing a more thorough job during the initial stages of her disappearance. Still maybe you are right and this isn't the correct place or thread to discuss this tragic event and I apologise if my comparison has offended you or anyone else. 

As for the Spanish embassy advice, I think for the sake of a phone call it may put the original posters mind at rest regarding whether he will incur any further penalties or repurcussions if he chooses to ignore the letter. I know it is not a serious issue by a long shot and I am under no illusion that it is some major international crime we are discussing here but a lot of folk do worry about such things as what has happened to Chris and this was just my way of trying to help and I assumed like Russell that the Spanish embassy may be able to advise him better of the potential Spanish legal implications than any of us could. As we are unaware of the Spanish laws regarding matters like this it is diffiucult to advise anyone correctly but once again this was just my small way of trying to help ............. nothing more!

By the way, I am all for clean beaches and clearing up after our dogs too Ray and I have 2 beautiful little dogs of my own - so it is a subject I feel very strongly about and I would NEVER, EVER allow either of mine to foul anywhere and then not clear up after them. To be truthful, it totally revolts me when I hear or see anyone doing this and I see no excuse for such inconsiderate, lazy and thoughtless behaviour. I agree totally with your views Ray and believe like you, that if folk allow their dogs to run wild on a beach or any place else for that matter and it goes to the toilet then you deserve to get a heavy fine and I have no sympathy for anyone who gets caught! In my eyes they deserve whatever comes their way!

However, as far as I can make out Chris (the original poster) was not fined for allowing his dog to foul anywhere was he? And from what I can gather his fine was for NOT having his dog papers with him when he was out walking his dog and also for allowing his dog to be off the lead! Is having dogs off a lead in Spain illegal or something or is it just in certain areas and if so, why isn't there a notice explaining this to people? Chris claims that nowhere in the vicinity was there a sign saying dogs must be kept on a lead and therefore it does seem rather unfair for him to be then penalised for something that he was not aware was in fact prohibited?

The above was the point I was trying to make in my post and under the circumstances I do still feel the Spanish authorities have been a little over the top by fining him. If this is a Spanish blanket rule and dogs are never permitted off their leads anywhere in Spain then how are we the visiting tourist to know this? Surely as Spain participates in the pet passport scheme this rule ought to pointed out to all tourists bringing their dogs with them and this way we would all be aware of the rules and then no mistakes would occur. If however, this is NOT a blanket Spanish rule and there are parts of Spain where dogs ARE in fact permitted to run free then the places where they are NOT allowed MUST have clear and visible notices displayed notifying dog owners that their dogs must be kept on a lead!

Re the UK and their £2000 fine that you refer to, I have little knowledge of such things Ray but I take your word for this and accept that the UK fines are a lot stiffer and heftier than the Spanish ones. However, If what happened to Chris happened here in the UK I would certainly advise him to challenge the powers that be that sent out the fine and paperwork and to take the matter as far as he could and if there were no signs displayed in the area saying that DOGS MUST BE KEPT ON A LEAD AT ALL TIMES then I think he would have a very strong case in his defence. I am no legal expert but my guess is that such rules have to be stipulated on a sign or something where it is clearly visible for the general public out walking their dogs to see and if not then I doubt if they would have a leg to stand on! Surely, folk cannot really be penalised for doing something that the authorities themselves have not had the foresight or common sense to point out to the public? Or maybe they can but if that is the case then it seems very wrong to me!

Sue


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## JockandRita

Dogs

Dog byelaws replaced with dog control orders which enable local authorities and parish councils to deal with:

* fouling by dogs
* ban dogs from designated areas
* require dogs to be kept on a lead
* restrict the number of dogs that can be walked by one person

On-the-spot fines are available for these offences to a maximum of £80

Copied from >>Here<<

I couldn't find a fine of £2000. 8O

Jock.


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## Detourer

"........I couldn't find a fine of £2000........."


Lifted it from the Kennel Club Site.............


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## Sonesta

*Quote from Detourer:** Anyway……better things to do…….packing the cool-box for an all night on the beach tonight it's……………. "el Noche de San Juan"………..best watch where I walk.*

Okay, okay Ray ............. DON'T rub it in we all know you have a wonderful life and tonight will be a night of magic and mystery............. el Noche de San Juan is also referred to as the witches's night and there are many legends from ancient times, saying that on this night nature can show all of its splendid power, and the world of humans mixes with the world of the fairies. Tonight is the night where magic and celtic rituals for love or money are made.

So you do right to watch where you are walking and just you watch out for little pixies and gremlins Ray ......... cos they poop green coloured poop and it's a devil to wash off your feet! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Have fun!

Sue


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## thieawin

Lets go back to the original question. Are the Spanish fines enforceable here by bailiffs or the courts. The answer is a resounding no. It is a fundamental core principle of Private International Llaw that the courts of one country will not enforce the fines, taxes or penalties of another. it applies across the board in common law countries and civil law countries.
The case is Government of India v Taylor

So no they cannot make you pay here.

if you go back to Spain, and they track you down, and they will, make n mistake, you will have to pay, maybe with late payment penalties. So you pays or don't pays your money and makes your choice. Avoid the €900 and never go back to Spain or pay up and be able to travel freely.

The DVLA stuff has been done to death on here as well. No it does not give out details willy nilly. It too is covered by data protection however for public authorities in the UK trying to enforce public laws and byelaws that is an exeption to the data protection rules. As foreign fines cannot be enforced here it should not release the information, even to out european bretheren for minor infringements, but for a serious extraditable crime, say a hit and run wth serious injury por death, well of course it will, and you would expect it to and if the boot were on the other foot you would expect a foreign registration authority to do the same if you, or a loved one, were mown down here by a foreign vehicle which then got home by doing a runner.

As ever there are exceptions. Some countries have entered into treaties and/or bilateral agreemenst about things such as information, fines and penalty points. Most have not. The UK, ie GB and NI has one such bilateral agreement, with the IOM, it only applies d to disqualifications, ie be disqualified in one and you are automatically disqualified in the other. Fines are not enforceable and neither are endorsements enterable on each others driving records or licences. It took ten years to negotiate that. We got fed up of disqulaifying visiting bikers ony to see them push their bikes onto the boat and drive once in England.

There is an EU directive which, over the next twenty years should unify the DD limits and all other offences and penalties and then an EU licence will mean that any court, any where in EU, will be able to enter endorsements and disqualify and they will apply throughout the EU. That is the theory. Note endioorsemenst and disqualifications, not enforcement of fines.

The practice is that UK and Ireland have ben negotiating a bilateral agreement for 20 years and it is still not in place. The difficulty being moving goal posts and fine levels and penalty point levels etc. They reduce their DD limit to 50, we stay at 80, what do you dio about the GB or NI driver caiught in IRL at 60 Is it right that he should be disqualified in UK for doing smething in IRL which was illegal in IRL but not in UK?

I passed my test in both IOM and GB so i have always legitimately held two full licences. The theory was get done in one and i could still drive everywhere else in the world (insurance questions apart). I have now swapped my GB licence for an IRL one to remains safe, as it were.

Hope that clears up the confusions caused by some posts above.


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## henrypartridge

If I had a choice of paying 900 euros or binning Spain it would be bye bye Spain. The amount of the fine is huge: write back and say the dog was on a lead and there is no law saying you have to carry papers. ('Cause there isn't,is there?)

The DVLA will give details to anyone, even cowboy parking firms


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## Grizzly

I would certainly not ignore it or give up Spain at risk of arrest.

Why not use a translation service or similar ( local FE college ?) and write to the address you have been given - assuming there is some sort of contact person given- and put your concerns to them ? Explain that you did not realise you were breaking the law by not carrying papers or having your dog off the lead, that you are sorry that this happened and you are a responsible dog owner and is there any chance of at least having the fine reduced.

It might not do the trick but it might. If it fails then I'd pay up rather than feel I could never go to Spain again.

G


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## averhamdave

I think:

1. A fine of 900 euros is, in my opinion entirely reasonable for letting dogs run about on a beach.
2. I think any comparison with the Madeline case is offensive. These comments made by someone who will be ignorant of the facts, other than those as reported in our tabloid press are also offensive to the Portugese authorities.
3. If you don't like the laws of a country and penalties for breaking those laws then don't go there. I suspect that many continental locals are fed up of the behaviour of many UK motorhomers, I've certainly been frequently embarrassed. :evil: 

Thanks "thieawin" for your interesting posting.


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## chapter

you can be fined £1000 for feeding the pidgeons in bristol 
chapter


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## billym

I got beaten to it by Averhamdave! Totally agree.

Maybe Sonestas comments about the Portugese/ Spanish police in relation to that other case may just help to explain an attitude that is likely to be inherent within the two police services ( forces )

If I was an officer of the law in either country and I had read the ludicrous Press reports in the British newspapers or watched the Sky news reports, I too would enjoy doing my little bit in fining any Brit who did anything whatsoever out of order.


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## waz

Having lived in Spain for a number of years and run a boarding kennels dogs are banned from all beaches in Spain. As for ID if you do not have an Spanish ID card then you are supposed to carry your passport. There was a report in the Costa Blanca News that a local bar owner and the mayor of a village were fined by the Gardia for not having there ID on them and they were only in the street outside the bar. The Gardia are a law unto themselves. do not trust them 
Waz


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## 107990

I would of thought that your pet passport would of been sufficent to prove that your dog was healthy but i think it's too late for that now, but it looks your bang to rights on the other one. If you fly in to Spain there computers will almost certainly flag you up. If you look at Ryanairs website you will see the notice that says that they have to send your passport details before you even leave the uk. In my experience they always run your passport through the reader when you arrive. I have been stopped while driving in Spain and didn't have my passport with me but they were happy with my photocard driving licence. I have never carried my passport in Spain when on a night out. Not a good idea with some of the places i get to.


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## JockandRita

averhamdave said:


> I think:
> 1. A fine of 900 euros is, in my opinion entirely reasonable for letting dogs run about on a beach.


In your opinion!!! Did you observe that the dog owner was *not * fined for allowing his dog to mess?

€900 for not having the dog's documentation, and, walking without being on a lead, is extortionate, and does not constitute irresponsible ownership, as your post might suggest.

Jock.


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## haylingchrist

Thanks to everyone who has provided practical suggestions for dealing with this, particularly thieawin.

Anway to address a few specfic comments:

Detourer - thanks for quoting my earlier post containing the background - I wanted to keep this post short. (and I pretty well much agree with your analysis that getting anyone important interested in it will be impossible).

The 'Holier than though crowd' - Randomly applying huge fines to people who break obscure local byelaws they have no practical way of knowing about doesn't sound like an effective way of keeping the beaches dog-trouble-free to me. Putting up some 'dogs on leads' signs might work better... Generally what happens when someone breaks a 'minor UK law' is they get a warning for a first offence, not a £700+ fine. 

eddied - You comments on European law are interesting, but I've never seen a sign saying 'this is what you CAN do' anywhere. If everything not explicitly allowed is banned, how can you even breathe and what's the point of all those 'no parking' etc., signs?


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## haylingchrist

Oh, and I thought I should clarify, the fines were for:

- Having the dog off a lead.
- Not carrying the dog's papers.

They were NOT for:
- Letting the dog crap on the beach. We always pick up, even though most Europeans look at you like you're a pervert.
- Having a dog on the beach.
- Not carrying personal ID (even though we weren't).


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## Penquin

A very interesting thread with lots of thongs for us all to think about, there but for the grace of God comes to mind. 

We have all done things overseas that we do at home without realising that it is not acceptable, most times we get away with it, sadly in this case you don't seem to have done so.

The fine is high for what we would consider minor transgressions, an approach to them MIGHT reduce it but I for one would experience sleepless nights knowing that somewhere this sort of a thing hangs over me.

We have lerned a great deal about our neighbours, we all need to think very carefully about our actions and perhaps, rejoice in the freedom that we seem to have in this country - it has cost a vast number of lives to give us these freedoms, let us all be thankful for them.


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## averhamdave

A nice posting penguin and I've thought about it since, grace of god and all that!

I didn't assume the dog had fouled the beach but on reflection 900 euros may be a bit steep! I hope you can sort it.


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## pauwilson

Only scanned though this so apologies if already mentioned, but is getting a recorded delivery letter from Spain not a bit strange? 

Unless of course it is from their version of the post office, but if UK Royal Mail then surley it must be a scam.


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## TR5

Penquin said:


> A very interesting thread with lots of* thongs *for us all to think about, there but for the grace of God comes to mind.


...and I thought for a moment you were talking about "dogs" on the beach, not the brief bikinis......LOL


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## asprn

Penquin said:


> A very interesting thread with lots of thongs for us all to think about


I wasn't going to join in this discussion, as I don't own a dog, and there are enough armchair lawyers participating without my tuppence-worth. *However*:-

I am now seriously interested. What have I missed? I've re-read the entire thread three times, and can't find a single reference to a thong.

As suggested though, I'm still thinking about them. 8O

Dougie.


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## Penquin

The reference to "thongs" is 'cos my geriatric fingers can't type too well and on this keyboard the "o" is next to "i", apologies to all for raising your hopes and expectations, simply a typing mistake, nothing freudian (I think!) - it should read things!

Perhaps I should have reread it and used he edit function, but then if it brings a wry smile to other people's face it would be wrong to remove that from their life wouldn't it!?!


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## Zebedee

What's with all the hot under the collar stuff. 8O

Wiki's definition is, _"Thong sandal or "flip-flop", a type of sandal held to the foot by a thin strap"_ :roll:

Have you all got a foot fetish or something? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## alunj

We have had recorded delivery from France in the past so I guess there is some sort of agreement on that.
Weather they chase it up is pot luck I think, certainly the French Town halls are not averse to using one of the pan european debt collection agencies for parking fines on uk registered cars . I know I had one 
Do the Spanish I dont know...
The fine here in South wales seems to be 80 quid for no lead and another 80 for being on the beach , oh and 500 if the dog fouls.
They are unlikely to approach you as the wardens have had a lot of abuse so they watch you go back to the car , get the reg and send the letter to the registered keeper.

To the poster who mentioned small fines in the Uk for first offense, this seems to be going out the window. My local authority is currently fining people 140 quid for the simplest pay and display parking offenses !
Including having your ticket on the wrong window !! And better they do not recognize the parking fine tribunal


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## billym

As from the 1st of May, dogs will be banned from the following beaches for the summer period:

* SoutherndownDog on beach
* Llantwit Major Beach
* Cold Knap
* Barry Island
* Penarth

The bye-law has been in operation since 2001 and exists primarily to protect the interests of bathers during the summer season.



It is aimed at ensuring the safety and pleasure of the majority who would wish to use the beach for sunbathing and swimming or similar seaside leisure activities.



It is an offence to allow your dog on these beaches and contradition of this bye-law could earn you a £500 fine. 


Just one UK example to show that our fines mirror those in Spain


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## Sonesta

averhamdave said:


> I think:
> 
> 1. A fine of 900 euros is, in my opinion entirely reasonable for letting dogs run about on a beach.
> 2. I think any comparison with the Madeline case is offensive. These comments made by someone who will be ignorant of the facts, other than those as reported in our tabloid press are also offensive to the Portugese authorities.
> 3. If you don't like the laws of a country and penalties for breaking those laws then don't go there. I suspect that many continental locals are fed up of the behaviour of many UK motorhomers, I've certainly been frequently embarrassed. :evil:
> 
> Thanks "thieawin" for your interesting posting.


Well thank you for your above comments but I do think my opinions (and they are only my personal opinions) have been taken slightly out of context and I had no intention of offending anyone by them which is why I apologised in a previous post if my comments may have done so. That is the last thing I would have wanted to do and I am sure deep down, you must realise that this "ignorant" lady (thank you once again) certainly did not mean any offence to anyone by what I posted and was merely pointing out my "thoughts" on the matter. I did apologise as I say but just for yours and billym's benefit I will once again attempt to explain my comments.

Just to clarify what I meant, so as you and billym can hopefully understand the comparison I so badly attempted to make is that during a recent TV documentary made by Madeline's parents which included in depth interviews with Madeline's parents, family and friends plus many of the british police investigators who since have become involved in the case and they have all openly condemned the Portugese authorities for many of what they claim were essential blunders made during the inititial and vital stages of the forensic investigations peformed at the crime scene and certain forensic evidence was apparently destroyed forever because of this. Members of staff at the holiday complex where this awful tragedy occurred were allegedly permitted into the room before the forensic teams had arrived on the scene and believe it or not the chambermaids were actually allowed in to strip the bed. All bedding was washed from the very bed that Madeline had been sleeping in on that tragic night, therefore destroying any possible DNA evidence that may have been left behind by the abductor! In our country this would most definitely not have been allowed to happen under any circumstances and the crime scene would have been out of bounds to anyone until all forensic work had been carried out. I agree I was not there and so obviously I can only go by media reportings but I believe the words of those people involved and the documentary did reveal many more serious and disturbing facts surrounding the investigation and so my comments made regarding this were borne out of what I believed to be accurate information spoken about by those involved in this heinous crime.

However, my point re the doggy situation was merely to draw attention to what seemed like a thorough Spanish investigation into the tracing of a relatively harmless dog offence back to the UK against what by all accounts was a series of major hiccups carried out during the early investigations of a extremely serious crime and to me it just struck a chord and made me think about the irony of it it all. I am not a legal person and I am just an ordinary member of the public and as such, I just voiced my personal take on the matter like you would if you were sat with a bunch of pals chatting - but had I known that some folk would find my comparison offensive I would certainly have not written it. I suppose I should have realised that some folk are highly sensitive about such matters and maybe It would have been wise of me to have thought a little more about what I wrote before I wrote it but I can assure you that I am not "ignorant" by any means!

I will say no more regarding little Madeline other than I long for the day her parents and family can finally have some kind of closure to their nightmare and wherever she is I hope she is safe.

Sue


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## Sonesta

billym said:


> As from the 1st of May, dogs will be banned from the following beaches for the summer period:
> 
> * SoutherndownDog on beach
> * Llantwit Major Beach
> * Cold Knap
> * Barry Island
> * Penarth
> 
> The bye-law has been in operation since 2001 and exists primarily to protect the interests of bathers during the summer season.
> 
> It is aimed at ensuring the safety and pleasure of the majority who would wish to use the beach for sunbathing and swimming or similar seaside leisure activities.
> 
> It is an offence to allow your dog on these beaches and contradition of this bye-law could earn you a £500 fine.
> 
> Just one UK example to show that our fines mirror those in Spain


I don't think anyone has an issue with these bye-laws billym and anyone seen knowingly and blatantly breaking them deserves the fines imposed and I think most sensible and responsible dog owners fully agree with this. You break the rules and you pays the price I say.

What I and others do have a problem with is the lack of information that some places display and if there are no notices erected saying it is an offence to let your dog off the lead or to take them on the beach etc etc then how is the general public out walking their dog supposed to know whether he/she is breaking a particular bye-law if there are no signs stipulating this?

I live in the seaside resort of Skegness and some beaches in our area we can take our dogs on and allow them off the lead and other beaches we cannot but these are clearly defined by large signs and notices clearly showing that NO DOGS ARE ALLOWED or DOGS MUST BE KEPT ON A LEAD AT ALL TIMES and so dog owners are very much aware of which beaches they are and everyone respects and aprreciates these rules and restrictions. As far as I know our town does not have a problem with irresponsible dog owners at all and in fact our beach has been voted as one of the top beaches in the world for cleanliness and safety and we are very proud of our blue flag award so as you can see dog walkers in our area know the rules and clearly respect and stick by them.

We are going slightly off track here (and I apologise if my own aforementioned posts may have attributed to this) but I think basically we dog owners fully accept our responsiblities and have no real issues with any rules relating to them being out and about in public and we accept these rules are there for everyones safety and benefit but what we do object to is being vulnerable to possible fines (whether it be here in the UK or whilst visiting other countries) and we feel pretty aggrieved if the local authorities responsible for the areas we are referring to do not make it clear to we dog owners what their particular rules and regulations are. This is basically the crux of this whole debate and why some people are voicing their objections.

Sue


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## 107990

Madaline disappeared in Portugal and not Spain (but hey, they are all foreigners). The spanish had a very similar situation just along the coast in Huelva and i understand they handled it very profesionally and caught the person. I also understand that they have been very helpful to the uk police. If you knew anything about Spain you would know that this chap was ticketed by the Guardia Civil and that child abduction would be investigated by the Policia National. I am sure though that you wouldn't want the facts to interfere with a good foreigners hate dogs and don't care about british children story.


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## eddied

*Napoleonic Codes*

 Buon giorno haylingchrist, 
re your question - breathing is taken care of via Ooman Rites legislation.
:wink: 
saluti,
eddied


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## Sonesta

DollarYen said:


> Madaline disappeared in Portugal and not Spain (but hey, they are all foreigners). The spanish had a very similar situation just along the coast in Huelva and i understand they handled it very profesionally and caught the person. I also understand that they have been very helpful to the uk police. If you knew anything about Spain you would know that this chap was ticketed by the Guardia Civil and that child abduction would be investigated by the Policia National. I am sure though that you wouldn't want the facts to interfere with a good foreigners hate dogs and don't care about british children story.


Very true I would not like to see this interfere with the facts regarding the dog issue, which is exactly why I said in a previous post that I would say no more about little Madeline. I have apologised for using Madeline's story as a comparison TWICE now and wish to goodness I had never expressed my personal opinions on the matter. By the way I never said the Portugese authorities did not care about british children at all and I would never presume such a proposperous thing and neither do I believe that all foreigners hate dogs either. I was discussing the handling of some of these offences that was all!

Like I say I have apologised twice now for my reference to the Madelne case and I fail to understand why some of you keep on referring to it? I AM SORRY ................. So PLEASE let sleeping dogs lie!

Sue


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## Penquin

Sonesta said:


> DollarYen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ................. So PLEASE let sleeping dogs lie!
> 
> Sue
> 
> 
> 
> aah, but *are they allowed to *sleep, or is there some restriction on sleeping?
> 
> can't be, they invented that excellent idea of the siesta didn't they?
Click to expand...


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## sylke

Methinks Haylingchris you have been fined for all the dogs that are found wandering around foriegn beaches without owners, collars or leads!!


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## cater_racer

Judging this issue by the volume and quantity of comment on this web site , it is clear that the fine has done its job. Several thousand people are now aware of the potential cost of letting their dogs run free in public areas. Well Done! the Spanish Police.


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## 108370

haylingchrist said:


> We recently received by recorded delivery at home two fines of 450€ - one for having our dog off the lead and the other for not carrying the dog's papers on a rural Spanish beach (no no-dogs signs).
> 
> It's easy to say 'just ignore it' but what if our ID is taken in Spain in the future? Or maybe it's enough cash to pursue in the UK - we don't want the bailiffs round or a county court judgment.
> 
> It sounds barking, but the local advice we're currently getting sounds like it won't be practical to challenge from the UK.
> 
> I'm not inclined to rush back to Spain if we can be fined so much in such an arbitrary way (and for what else?), but any practical advice on how to approach this would be appreciated.
> 
> Chris


i have read this thread BUT what I cannot understand is ' who spoke to you to ascertain that you did not have papers for the dog'?

If you were spoken to , you must know who issued the fine. To my knowledge ( I live partly in Spain ) all officials carry an I.D and usually it is on display. If it were the local police or the Guardia it would be obvious.

If you were not approached and spoken to then how could anybody know if you had the correct papers or not?

:?


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## Sonesta

cater_racer said:


> Judging this issue by the volume and quantity of comment on this web site , it is clear that the fine has done its job. Several thousand people are now aware of the potential cost of letting their dogs run free in public areas. Well Done! the Spanish Police.


Mmm cater-racer that is one way of looking at it I suppose but I would prefer a more obvious and honest approach to the subject myself. Lets face it - not all visitors to Spain have access to the internet or are indeed members of MHF are they? Why not just make it really fair and simple and erect a few signs in the appropriate places and ensure that all dog owners visiting their country are exposed to all the Spanish rules and regulations pertaining to dogs? Much nicer and far more welcoming to foreign visitors don't you think?

Sue


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## 108370

Sonesta said:


> cater_racer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Judging this issue by the volume and quantity of comment on this web site , it is clear that the fine has done its job. Several thousand people are now aware of the potential cost of letting their dogs run free in public areas. Well Done! the Spanish Police.
> 
> 
> 
> Mmm cater-racer that is one way of looking at it I suppose but I would prefer a more obvious and honest approach to the subject myself. Lets face it - not all visitors to Spain have access to the internet or are indeed members of MHF are they? Why not just make it really fair and simple and erect a few signs in the appropriate places and ensure that all dog owners visiting their country are exposed to all the Spanish rules and regulations pertaining to dogs? Much nicer and far more welcoming to foreign visitors don't you think?
> 
> Sue
Click to expand...

And then they could have as many crazy signs littering their towns and highways as we have in the UK


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## Sonesta

reeventu said:


> And then they could have as many crazy signs littering their towns and highways as we have in the UK


Oh my goodness - I am outta here! :roll:

Sue


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## cater_racer

Sonesta said:


> reeventu said:
> 
> 
> 
> And then they could have as many crazy signs littering their towns and highways as we have in the UK
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness - I am outta here! :roll:
> 
> Sue
Click to expand...

Just as well if you are suggest there is anything dishonest about my posting.


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## averhamdave

Oh, and we would of course expect the signs to be in English wouldn't we?


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## Sonesta

cater_racer said:


> Just as well if you are suggest there is anything dishonest about my posting.


I was not going to reply to this particular thread anymore as I was starting to feel a little bit intimadated by some of the posters on here but I have had so many lovely pm's from other members regarding this thread and some of the remarks that have been made to me that I decided to respond one last time.

I really feel I must reply to your comment cater_racer as you have really upset me with what you have written and I found myself having to read what you wrote twice as I was totally gobsmacked by your curt response!

I can assure you that I was certainly not suggesting for one moment that you are dishonest. I do not know you and for me to suggest such a thing about a complete stranger is simply unthinkable and I would never be so rude or so accusing. My reference to honesty was in connection to the canine bye- laws in Spain and was certainly not directed at your personal character in any way and I am deeply offended by your suggestion that I was accusing you of some kind of dishonest behaviour!

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I am not prepared to continue to argue over this subject any longer as I suspect some of you on the forum are just arguing for the sake of arguing now and personally for myself, this thread is becoming most unpleasant. I love this forum and enjoy participating in the threads and I love the way we can all voice our opinions freely and fairly but when I or anyone else is on the receiving end of personal remarks and remarks that really do upset you, I think it is time to say enough is enough and leave those that wish to spend their time arguing to get on with it!

Sue


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## cater_racer

Just be more careful with your phraseology in future and you won't get curt responses.


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## bognormike

can we call it a day there, please??


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## C7KEN

We live permanently in Spain, have a dog and only take him on the beach in the winter months. We would not expect to be letting him loose on any area of beach with people sitting relaxing on it but during the winter the Spanish all have their dogs on the beach so we do the same.We have never had any problem either with the Garda or the Policia Local but we do know of the rule that the papers for the dog should be available to them and that on pavements all dogs should be on a lead. So to sum up If we see any police or garda we make damm sure the dog is on a lead. We do not ever leave dog poo anywhere as we use nappy bags to lift it and dispose of it. We try to be very carefull and low profile and so far no problems. The Spanish do have some really funny ways that we find difficult to get to grips with but its still a good place to live with excellent weather etc. so we just have to accept their strange rules or punish ourselves by going back to the UK


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## haylingchrist

reeventu said:


> i have read this thread BUT what I cannot understand is ' who spoke to you to ascertain that you did not have papers for the dog'?
> :?


Well, the Guardia who stopped Jill spoke no English and Jill's Spanish is limited. She though he wanted *her* ID.

Of course the dog is chipped and has a passport but Jill didn't have it with her at the time. Are you supposed to carry the damn thing always? What if it gets lost? I'd have thought that if he was going to issue a €450 fine he'd have taken a bit more trouble to communicate. The first we knew was six weeks later.


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## haylingchrist

billym Said>
>As from the 1st of May, dogs will be banned from the following beaches for the summer period:
>
> * SoutherndownDog on beach 
<SNIP>
>
>contradition of this bye-law could earn you a £500 fine. 
>
>Just one UK example to show that our fines mirror those in Spain

So if I deliberately ignored the signs and took my dog on a popular UK bathing beach in summer I *might* be fined £500.

We walked our dog in April on a beach that almost nobody ever goes to sunbathe or swim because it's 15 minutes brisk walk from the car park, you often have to share with cows, pony trekkers, a score of novice kite-surfers and strong winds (25mph that day). We broke two bylaws we had no idea existed (and not much hope of knowing) and got fined about £750.

Yes, I can see the similarity - I feel much better now.


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## haylingchrist

A couple of days ago I spoke to the Consulate in Malaga - they don't do legal advice but suggested some lawyers. I spoke to two (well, their receptionists anyway...)

The first said it was lunch-time and there was no-one there. She then put me on hold for a while, and after speaking to no-one I guess, made it clear I wasn't getting to speak to anyone who knew what they were talking about without paying and it would be too expensive. I said 'how much' and she said 'I don't know, I'll call you back'. She never did of course.

The second (Alex Radford in Nerja) was much more helpful. Having taken some details she spoke to a colleague who advised the cheapest solution would be to put it down to experience and just pay the fine. I could come in for a consultation if I liked but it would just cost more in the end.

It appears we only had 15 days to appeal which is now long gone. I can't imagine there would have been any point in Tarifa anyway as the mayor is very anti outsiders. We're don't speak enough Spanish to deal with anything legal and we're not there. To argue the toss now we'd have to pay someone and that's not going to make sense. 

I'm not even sure we've committed one of the offences. The dog is chipped and has a passport. Who would imagine you'd have to carry it always?

Basically it's legalised robbery, but I can't really see any way out.

Thanks again to everyone who's tried to help.

Chris


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## Detourer

Hi Hallyingchrist

All this talk about "Illegal" dogs and then I get done......well, nearly.

Last Monday an estate agent was taking clients a house along our track. One of our dogs, a "Husky" who spends all day sitting outside our gate, went to investigate.............nothing else and nothing more happened.

15 mins ago Guadia arrived and wanted to see the "dangerous" dog and her papers etc etc......the estate agent had complained that he felt "Threatened"......

We were it seemed in line for a 450euro fine, but as my Spainish is not great I phoned his boss [my son-in-law] and got a one-week stay of "execution" while I made our property dog-proof/secure and she must be kept in.........and there was no signs saying she couldn't stroll or sit in our lane............... :roll:

I posted this earlier under a different thread......so I asked for it :lol: .

"Given recent postings/threads regarding dogs and criticism of our ever vigilant police in Spain ………You may be pleased to know that they are at least of the very highest standard in fitness………..Just seen this regarding recruitment [can't have] requirements for the Guardia Civil…………I didn't make it up, it's true.

Must have more than one testicle………….[Most I have met have none I think ] 
No sexually transmitted diseases…………..[Before or during service ] 
No Flat Feet………………………………..............[A UK Bobby requirement ] 
No High-Pitched voice……………………..........[A giveaway re the one testicle rule ] 
No psoriasis………………………………............... [Whatever that is ] 
No stutter………………[Sttttttt…..oooooop......ourrrr….iiiiiii…..shoooooot. Yes, I get that one ]

My Son-In-Law is a Capt in the Guardia………Now I see what she saw in him".....

.


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## haylingchrist

We finally got a local Spanish friend-of-a-friend to ask at the Tarifa town hall. She was told that the fines are so high to make it worthwhile to try collect anywhere in Europe.

I.e. if you're Spanish you just get the 'normal' 60€ dog on beach fine. Anyone else gets 900€ for breaking some obscure byelaw. 

I guess that's reasonable...


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## teemyob

*Fines*

Simple, do not pay it and do not go back to Spain.

Trev.


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