# Nuke is Format twiddling



## sallytrafic

Twiddle twiddle


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## bognormike

wish he'd do it at 3am when nobody else notices :roll:


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## nukeadmin

lol if i did Frank would still notice first


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## GerryD

Wish he'd leave it alone. Site is too complicated as it is. An over complicated site is an unfriendly site.
K.I.S.S.
Gerry


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## nukeadmin

and some would say innovate and grow


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## Techno100

Must be why it's only running at £5 speed :lol:


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## greenasthegrass

Treble time on a Sunday night and if it gets rid of the annoying sticky that has been there for weeks - bring it on!

Greenie :lol:


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## locovan

I have given the link to friend's tonight so I hope they don't look in as it looks even more complicated :roll:


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## machilly

He'd be better working on Icampsites, to get that working again...


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## pete4x4

I agree fix Icampsites first then mess with the site


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## carolgavin

Sorry guys from what I understand Nuke genius although he undoubtably is at twiddling, he contracted Icampsites out to a developer and its them that needs to fix it!!
Afraid Nukes hands are tied on this one!


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## CPW2007

I thought me 'puter had become infected!!! :lol: :lol: :wink: 

Regards

Chris


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## rayrecrok

Hi.

While he is fiddling around he should get the renewal procedure to work easier.

I:E...... K.I.S.S. ( keep it simple stupid!)..


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## nukeadmin

lol seems like everyone knows how to run MHF and I don't 

Carol is correct btw, iCampsites is farmed out as I am not a C+ coder, he has provided a fix that has been tested and will be uploaded for review by Apple tmrw and hopefully be on your devices by the end of the week


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## sallytrafic

nukeadmin said:


> lol seems like everyone knows how to run MHF and I don't
> 
> clipped


A fair summation Dave have you seen what the page looks like on a lappy?

This is my view on a huge screen, before scrolling, I can see just 4 of the top 10 threads. You are adding to my chances of rsi 










edit sorry wrong screenshot


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## CliveMott

I agree. Page is too tall and on a notebook all you see is the headers and adverts, you have to scroll down to see the postings.
Even worse on my phone!

C.


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## rayrecrok

nukeadmin said:


> lol seems like everyone knows how to run MHF and I don't


Whoooo.


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## nukeadmin

guess you didn't see the "lol" nor the smiley Ray 

Got pretty broad shoulders running MHF and VVVV thick skin


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## sallytrafic

and you have censored the subs bar from this view as well

and the link to your 1st announcement is broken and the subsequent ones!


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## val33

Sorry Nuke, I have to agree with the others. On my 17 inch screen I only get to see one 'latest posts' without scrolling down.

There is far too much wasted space at the top of the page. It really needs condensing. I really can't see any point in having 'Latest Site News' that is over three months out of date.

I also do not need to know what the time is or when I was last on the site etc!

Just my view.

Val


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## rayrecrok

nukeadmin said:


> guess you didn't see the "lol" nor the smiley Ray
> 
> Got pretty broad shoulders running MHF and VVVV thick skin


Of course I did :lol: :lol: :lol: .


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## nukeadmin

The subs bar missing is not a bug actually Frank it is by design, something that the mods and I were discussing

The subs bar tends to attract the worst of our posts and as such has the side effect of some members thinking we are a political hotpot of racist, sexist, lefties lol (present site company excepted)

as we approach the silly season (motor homers bored and frustrated with most of them not being able to use their vans) the mods workload increases exponentially and by making the subs bar still usable but tucked away more in the bowels of mhf it prevents those who mitt be offended mistakenly clicking on the post title etc

The news articles listed has been reduced to 1 and the date bug will be rectified tmrw am


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## GEMMY

As a user of the 'subs' bar I object to being called a leftie. :lol: 

tony


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## Glandwr

Any news on the campsite USB thingy database?

Dick


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## Glandwr

GEMMY said:


> As a user of the 'subs' bar I object to being called a leftie. :lol:
> 
> tony


Everyone's left of someone Tony. Or at least I hope they are :?

Dick


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## bulawayolass

I am thinking Nuke has Nuked the site totally because the forum posts click to get next 10 l only get the first 10 the rest have disappeared.


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## Spooky_b329

_Site is too complicated as it is_

Agree, my renewal is due this month, won't be renewing as although this place is great for advice, its just too big. 180 forums in 14 categories is madness. I'd rather browse 10 pages of new posts than a hundred forums with three new posts each. 'New Posts' only covers three pages and thats it.


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## sallytrafic

nukeadmin said:


> The subs bar missing is not a bug actually Frank it is by design, something that the mods and I were discussing
> 
> The subs bar tends to attract the worst of our posts and as such has the side effect of some members thinking we are a political hotpot of racist, sexist, lefties lol (present site company excepted)
> 
> as we approach the silly season (motor homers bored and frustrated with most of them not being able to use their vans) the mods workload increases exponentially and by making the subs bar still usable but tucked away more in the bowels of mhf it prevents those who mitt be offended mistakenly clicking on the post title etc
> 
> The news articles listed has been reduced to 1 and the date bug will be rectified tmrw am


So where can decent people debate on such matters? All you will do is put the extremists in a hidden corner and stifle reasonable debate.

I'm thinking I'll not renew as others have said the site is too complicated there are too many adverts and extraneous bits of rubbish and clutter.

Its been nice but its getting nasty.


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## mandyandandy

Well I love it, and for me nothing really changes, the only time it really bothered me was when the font was so small I could hardly read it. 

But then I only come on for 1 hour or so every morning and click directly on discussions, then 3 single clicks down on the mouse and I have the first 10 of new listings. Move to next 10 and then next 10 until I have caught up with yesterdays readings. 

Very easy for me to follow, I can see the headings that I may be interested in and never really look to see what forum or category they are in just if it looks informative in some way then I read it if not I move on. 

Maybe I am not trying hard enough and should try to complicate it more   

Thanks Nuke for all your efforts and no hesitation in renewing my subs this month.   

(when did you say the discounts would be posted) :lol: :lol: 

Mandy


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## jimmyd0g

GEMMY said:


> As a user of the 'subs' bar I object to being called a leftie. :lol:
> 
> tony


You know what they say about them as complains loudest against something.... .
In fact, you are Denis Skinner in disguise & I claim my £10-00 prize. :lol:

PS

Nuke & mods - sorry if this post is seen as political or 'stirring'. Just trying to have a small laugh (hopefully WITH tony) on a freezing Monday morning. 
However, if you decide to remove the post it I'm cool.


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## Westbay

Trying to read through this posting while listening to morning news on radio, but the sound is being drowned out by the noise of toys being thrown out of prams . . . 

1. If you no longer feel you want to pay to be a member, fine, leave - but please do it quietly and spare the rest of us the Victorian hystrionics.

2. If you want to see a great long list of 'new posts' just open the 'jump to' dialog box and click to see all the posts since your last visit. It's what I do daily and takes 2 seconds.

3. The above hopefully shows you posts that, broadly, fit into the motorhome remit, if you want to look at argumentative posts, go look for the subs bar.

Now if you'll excuse me I've got some toys to pick up :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Drew

Westbay said:


> Trying to read through this posting while listening to morning news on radio, but the sound is being drowned out by the noise of toys being thrown out of prams . . .
> 
> 1. If you no longer feel you want to pay to be a member, fine, leave - but please do it quietly and spare the rest of us the Victorian hystrionics.
> 
> 2. If you want to see a great long list of 'new posts' just open the 'jump to' dialog box and click to see all the posts since your last visit. It's what I do daily and takes 2 seconds.
> 
> 3. The above hopefully shows you posts that, broadly, fit into the motorhome remit, if you want to look at argumentative posts, go look for the subs bar.
> 
> Now if you'll excuse me I've got some toys to pick up :lol: :lol: :lol:


Well said Sir, couldn't have put it better.

I feel that people who put up a post informing us that they intend to leave, do it for sympathy, expecting others to ask them to stay. I say leave, clear off if that is how you feel.

Drew


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## Techno100

To forego the Front page and extensive header just make this your bookmark
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=search&search_id=newposts


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## asprn

Techno100 said:


> To forego the Front page and extensive header just make this your bookmark
> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=search&search_id=newposts


Exactly right (in fact, I use the foreshortened http://www.motorhomefacts.com/fsearch-newposts.html ). I never use the front page. I have an MHF folder on my FireFox bookmarks toolbar, listing new posts, my posts, watched posts, and PMs. I've never needed to navigate through the site.

Nuke can do what he wants with the various pages. My pre-defined links work just the same. 

Dougie.


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## sallytrafic

My point in raising this thread is typically when Nuke changes the format there are losers. I had a one click route into all posts (and Dougie like you it was an external shortcut) which needs amending if I wanted to visit the subs bar. 

My experience with such changes is that Nuke makes the change and there are obvious drawbacks, see my second post in the thread. In this case there was a lot of extra scrolling involved to see the page. Over a fairly short period if enough heat is raised most of these defects are rectified in full or in part. I like to think that I have been instrumental in 'Beta testing' this site over the years and raising the issues to get them corrected.

It seems to me then Nuke gets bored and moves on to other things.

So for me the site is littered with the fallout of these changes just a few that I can remember.

Pull down menus that clutter (they are too quick to drop if you pass the mouse over them, but worst of all the basic structure is not intuitive: Blogs aren't discussions for example, smilies are accessed via Forum add ons.

Search magnifying glass is route into search proper.

You can't type S O G as one word SOG without advertising links appearing.

Chatroom doesn't work properly for many people.


So well people adapt, figure out work arounds, but I was sitting looking over the shoulder of a potential MHF recruit a week or so ago and viewed by a newbie the site is way too complex.


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## DABurleigh

I have a similar concern raised cryptically in the subs bar thread, where I say MHF change management is like nothing I see at work 

I would volunteer to be one of a number of user reps, but I think our views would be ignored anyway. The problem is that nuke's oft proclaimed virtue of democracy means him plus Mods/staff. Err, that's it.

So, he is focussed on getting newbies to subscribe to MHF. No problem with that per se; his site, his income, his call. Though I do find it hard to rationalise this focus with the consequences of his innate IT guru mindset, where extra functionality and complexity are deemed good for their own sake, even though newbies in particular (though by no means exclusively!) find them a bewildering barrier to engaging with MHF. For me, good design comes in the art of maintaining functionality but through a clarity, consistency and simplicity of structure and user interface. A lot of this art comes from concentrating on the user experience, helped by working with users throughout, in a culture where their views are welcomed, valued and not taken as a cue for a defensive rant.

The Mods thinking tends to start and finish with the problems they face of dealing with complaints, upholding the rules, and so on.

So, in all this, the vast silent majority of paying customers tend not to have any advocates in MHF decisions. And that is THE main problem I see.

The last time at work we focussed on new customers to the detriment of those who paid our wages it nearly brought the organisation down; we won't do that again.

The above analysis (it's what I do at work) offered in the spirit of constructive criticism of MHF.

Dave


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## Zebedee

DABurleigh said:


> For me, good design comes in the art of maintaining functionality but through a clarity, consistency and simplicity of structure and user interface.


Words of great wisdom there Dave. :wink:

The instrument that conveys the message should itself be virtually invisible.



DABurleigh said:


> The Mods thinking tends to start and finish with the problems they face of dealing with complaints, upholding the rules, and so on.


Some truth in this as well Dave . . . but not for the reasons many will assume! 8O It's simply because we often don't have time for much else. :roll:



DABurleigh said:


> So, in all this, the vast silent majority of paying customers tend not to have any advocates in MHF decisions. And that is THE main problem I see.


Not entirely true.

We do take notice, but a high percentage of the suggestions are impractical for one reason or another.

This should certainly NOT prevent them being offered, and those familiar with what I still think of as "brainstorming" will be well aware that an apparently stupid suggestion from one member of a group often triggers a brilliant one from someone else. :wink:

_(You have to be confident to offer the stupid suggestion, and the rest of the close-knit team must be trusted NEVER to poke fun or derision.)_

It works . . . and has worked on here several times, so please don't anybody stop offering the suggestions.

There you go Dave . . . all hell may have broken loose while I was doing this! 8O :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dave


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## nukeadmin

> Nuke can do what he wants with the various pages. My pre-defined links work just the same


exactly Dougie, everyone uses the site in different ways



> It seems to me then Nuke gets bored and moves on to other things.


Its called reacting to user concerns Frank and in fact this recent change of moving subs bar was actually proposed by the mods based on the huge upsurge in reports / feedback from you, the members about the subs bar



> Pull down menus that clutter (they are too quick to drop if you pass the mouse over them, but worst of all the basic structure is not intuitive: Blogs aren't discussions for example, smilies are accessed via Forum add ons.


I beg to differ here, we used to have a huge long left hand menu system that went on and on down the page and in the forums it was a totally different menu system now they are combined in one sitewide menu.
Blogs are discussion based imho Frank as you output info and then people comment on it, smilies are part of forum addons so they should be listed under it.



> Search magnifying glass is route into search proper.


This was decided on to give a quick link into forums search for those who know how it works (There is also a link on Discussion heading Search Motorhome Forums"



> You can't type S O G as one word Sog without advertising links appearing.


There are only a few links on mhf that are generated like that, there used to be plenty more but i listened to feedback and reduced them significantly



> Chatroom doesn't work properly for many people.


And I have checked this and there is no actual problem with the chatroom, it appears to be something to do with peoples individual setups, many people access it fine (myself included) so it makes it a dog of a job to figure out what is happening



> MHF change management is like nothing I see at work


Well with respect Dave, MHF isn't the UK government and doesn't quite have the budget for a change management board or the time and resources 



> I would volunteer to be one of a number of user reps


And I have asked you numerous times 



> The problem is that nuke's oft proclaimed virtue of democracy means him plus Mods/staff. Err, that's it


Majority of feedback is taken and actioned.



> So, he is focussed on getting newbies to subscribe to MHF


Nope, my mentality is on providing a framework that is unique that attracts new members and retains existing members alike whilst reducing churn



> the vast silent majority of paying customers tend not to have any advocates in MHF decisions


Not at all Dave, but if everything changed on the site was discussed in the forums beforehand and put to a vote then nothing would ever get done, everyone and I mean everyone has different views on how a site should look and function. Our forums and any others bear this out as some people like aspects others hate them


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## erneboy

Simple questions.


Is feedback really listened to? There has been plenty saying words to the effect that the bar wasn't broken so why fix it?

Why not put the bar back as it was and throw offenders off threads if they break the rules, ban them from MHF if they continue to offend?

If, as now seems clear, the real agenda is to strangle the bar and ensure it's demise why not just delete it?



And some comment. Much reference has been made to complaints yet when reading the threads I have not noticed many contributions being reported. I assume therefore that people must be reporting by means of PM to the mods or Nuke. 


Why have the report button if people are so timid that they don't use it. I would like to think that if something I said generated a complaint I would at least know what I had said which caused the perceived offense and possibly the opportunity to rebut the accusation or apologise if I had overstepped the mark. Equally if I reported a post I would say so and explain why.

My personal view is that anonymous denunciation of others lacks courage but it is available to those who are too timid to put just their username to a complaint. Allowing this to be done by PM so that a member may never even know there has been a complaint is not a good policy, it may encourage mischief makers. I believe that anyone wishing to complain should be required to use the report button, after all they remain anonymous. If people won't use the button I think their complaint should be rejected.

The current form of management does have political parallels. 


For me this episode has two possible explaination:

1. people who stay in the back ground and complain wield undue influence. I have suggested this before.

or

2. the number of complaints which are described as considerable is in fact not a great number at all. 

I have no way of knowing which it is because anonymous and secret complaints are currently par for the course.

This is not by way of an attack. It is an effort to explain how recent actions look to me and what might be done to make matters clearer to us all,

Alan.


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## nukeadmin

> Is feedback really listened to? There has been plenty saying words to the effect that the bar wasn't broken so why fix it?


The Problem in this particular case Alan is that the members who are being put off by the often very aggressive postings in the subs bar are hardly the sort of members who would post on this thread  They have however been voicing their concerns to the mods and I



> Why not put the bar back as it was and throw offenders off threads if they break the rules, ban them from MHF if they continue to offend?


Because the site then gets accused of dictatorship, censorship etc and also it is the difficulty sometimes in drawing the line on what constitutes a personal attack, some postings that are trolling don't actually cross the line, but skirt continuosly along its length and therefore it is hard to reach a consensus about what action is required without being accused of censoring / big brother etc etc



> If, as now seems clear, the real agenda is to strangle the bar and ensure it's demise why not just delete it?


this isn't the idea, it is simply to make it so that those who use the bar continue to do so and those who don't will not be clicking on the title by mistake, nothing has changed lol, in fact once i get time to code and not be composing long in depth replies to threads I might be able to make a start on what I already mentioned earlier in one of the numerous threads running atm about a customizable x most recent threads page which would keep everyone happy (I jest of course as someone will be upset  )



> believe that anyone wishing to complain should be required to use the report button, after all they remain anonymous. If people won't use the button I think their complaint should be rejected.


 lol the reports button does get used, in fact we improved the code on the reporting system a few months back and it now tracks cleared reports instead of just deleting them when actioned.

FYI we have now had 239 reports in 4 months since new codebase was introduced 

So what is the answer, do we make reporting visible to all i.e. you can see who reported what ? If that were the case there would be uproar, either no-one would use the facility or else those who did would be witch hunted


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## erneboy

Thanks Nuke.

As to censorship, from my perspective that's what has happened. Can't quite see how you can describe not making changes as censorship.

Should reports be visible? Certainly, I think so. They can remain anonymous, which I think is cowardly, but at least we should be able to see what is reported. I can only say that as regular user I have not noticed anything approaching the number of reports you have recorded. I conclude therefore that either the button does not remain red for long or that reports are being made by PM.

It has been suggested that this new method of hiding the bar will reduce reports and that the sensitive souls are "wandering in by accident". If that were true surely one visit would suffice. My conclusion is that they are policing and I suggest that while you have recorded many reports you might also like to tell us how many members have made two or more of these reports so that we can see whether you are dealing with serial complainers.

Personally I spend quite a bit of time on this site and find the mixture of topics can engage me. If the subs bar perishes I will find less to interest me. I like to help when I can with technical queries, newby questions etc. but I could manage without doing that.

I would be able to glean all the technical information I require as a non-subscribing member and if I don't find the site diverting in other ways I think I would see little point in subscribing.

It's your site Nuke and I respect that. I would point out that as it is your site you are at liberty to reserve the right of admission. I ask again why not just ban persistent offenders, Alan.


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## nukeadmin

> Should reports be visible? Certainly, I think so. They can remain anonymous, which I think is cowardly, but at least we should be able to see what is reported. I can only say that as regular user I have not noticed anything approaching the number of reports you have recorded. I conclude therefore that either the button does not remain red for long or that reports are being made by PM.


reports are fully visible until the report has been actioned by a moderator and then marked as cleared

All of those reports figures are direct reports using the site reporting process Alan, i.e. none of those were via any other method such as PMs. It gets used a lot more than the members maybe think, hence mods workload is high, especially at this time of year and especially as we have a nice methodology where the moderators strive to keep all relevant parties concerned up to date via PM as to what has happened.



> It's your site Nuke and I respect that. I would point out that as it is your site you are at liberty to reserve the right of admission. I ask again why not just ban persistent offenders


Well this point has certainly been raised recently by the mods Alan, and we feel the time is approaching (With winter onset) that certain members of the site only contribution are negative ones and their insistent trolling of each other and online public spats serve nothing and annoy many so this is on the table


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## peribro

If the action that has been taken to make the Subs Bar less visible to those who do not want to be in it is successful, then that must be a positive result. Hopefully that will reduce the number of Reports, remove some of the pressure from the mods and will obviate the need for more drastic action such as banning certain members or certain lines of discussion. I enjoy robust discussions and, whilst not condoning personal attacks or gratuitously offensive comments, hope that the debates in the Subs Bar continue much as before.

I am confused though why posts in the Subs Bar still appear in the New Posts search. Surely many members use that just as much as the Top 10. If they are going to stumble into the Subs Bar from the Top 10 aren't they just as likely to do that from New Posts. I realise that I am shooting myself in the foot with this question as I only use the New Posts search for looking at posts!


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## nukeadmin

the reason it is only the main recent posts that have subs bar postings not displayed is that is the default view, if people go looking into the different aspects of the site then they will find the posts, but my research shows that majority of members use either last x posts on the front page or the main forums.html page to check last posts


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## erneboy

Thanks again Nuke.

Why not leave reports permanently visible? Clearly many are unaware of reports because they have been cleared quickly. Change the colour or the icon if you want to show that they have been cleared. I won't suggest a counting the score system as that would take no account of the severity of any offense.

I assume that no member can be the subject of a complaint without knowing?

Sorry, I am discussing this on two threads at present but I have suggested a football based approach on the other one perhaps you could consider that or at least let me have your comments on it, Alan.


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## DABurleigh

nukeadmin said:


> Well with respect Dave, MHF isn't the UK government and doesn't quite have the budget for a change management board or the time and resources


It's not budget or resources, Dave, but simply the discipline and culture of recognising the importance of customers/ users and engaging them fully in designing changes. Whereas you seem to go the way of many IT suppliers and decide you know what is best for users and don't ask because they can never agree.



nukeadmin said:


> "I would volunteer to be one of a number of user reps" - And I have asked you numerous times


Well you have asked me numerous times to be a mod, but never a user rep. And if you had/are, then I suggest you post a public invitation for members to indicate their willingness to be considered as a user rep, describing fully what you expect of them and what you undertake to do with their input.

Dave


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## erneboy

DAB replied to nuke with this, " Whereas you seem to go the way of many IT suppliers and decide you know what is best for users and don't ask because they can never agree."

To me that sums up the problem with authority. Those in power, whatever they are in charge of, usually think they know what is best. The reality is that they know what they prefer. The sheep don't understand the pressures so their opinions can be ignored. 

It's a form of representative democracy. We are asked for our opinions then we are ignored. It has the effect of making gullible people think that what they say counts.

But it's Nukes site and he can do what he likes. I just wish he would bring his authority to bear on those who are causing his problems and allow the rest of us to be foolish in a friendly way, Alan.


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## Zebedee

erneboy said:


> We are asked for our opinions then we are ignored. Alan.


You couldn't be more wrong as it happens Alan.

One of your suggestions is being seriously considered as I type! :wink:

Dave


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## bulawayolass

I used to be happy to pile into a fight but since loosing Brian l suddenly realise that it isn't important especially in a forum. I come here to learn and l am doing that so for me it is well worth the subs. Some layout things do take a bit of getting used to but it isn't hard.
To my mind the BEST thing about this forum set up is being able to hold the cursor over the title of the post and get the first few lines, bliss it means l do not waste time on what is of no use or interest. 

Don't be misled l will fight on a face to face basis over something if it is important.. ask the vet who l body slammed the other day when he touched my shoulder and fiddled with my bag over my shoulder without asking. 
And l will argue face to face or by phone if again l am dealing directly with a situation that requires it like clydesdale/barclays over returning my camper. 
l just don't feel any urge to argue or cause them in something like a forum.


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