# Fiat Ducato 2.8JTD - different power options?



## LittleGreyCat

Investigating remapping at the moment.

Most sites list the Fiat Ducato 2.8JTD as 127bhp.
Some sites also show a "power" option of 146bhp.
One site, Speedhawk Suppliers lists two variants of the 2.8JTD - 127bhp pre-2000 and 122bhp post-2000.

So how do I know which variant I have in my van?

Fiat Ducato handbook which came with the van quotes 127bhp but this is no guarantee.

Cheers

LGC


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## BillCreer

Hi,
If it's 122 bhp then its a TDI and 2000 and before.

If it's 127 bhp then it's a JTD and post 2000

The TDis are harder to tune as they are an older generation of engine


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## spatz1

I v e been sifting through 2.8 RE map companies and what they claim to do.....

One of the strangest annomolies seems to be the fact they claim to re map and adjust the turbo in the process ( by that one would assume they increase the boost pressure as is normal)...

However, on close inspection of 2.8 turbo s i was suprised to see the waste gate (and thus the boost pressure ) is simply controlled by the usual manual diaphram but unusually linked straight back into the turbo pressure side....

http://screencast.com/t/mVTeOiGIgoR8

Doesnt seem to be the normal means of adjusting it or any ability for an "electronic" means to do so....


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## Jezport

The 146 bhp was only available on the LHD due to the larger turbo not fitting the RHD variant (so I was told)


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## blongs

Jezport said:


> The 146 bhp was only available on the LHD due to the larger turbo not fitting the RHD variant (so I was told)


That makes sense as my friend at work has a Hymer Tramp GT in left hand drive with the higher power.

I think his front grill has a "power" badge on it to signify.

He had his imported to the uk when he bought it.

Ben


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## LittleGreyCat

spatz1 said:


> I v e been sifting through 2.8 RE map companies and what they claim to do.....
> 
> One of the strangest annomolies seems to be the fact they claim to re map and adjust the turbo in the process ( by that one would assume they increase the boost pressure as is normal)...
> 
> However, on close inspection of 2.8 turbo s i was suprised to see the waste gate (and thus the boost pressure ) is simply controlled by the usual manual diaphram but unusually linked straight back into the turbo pressure side....
> 
> http://screencast.com/t/mVTeOiGIgoR8
> 
> Doesnt seem to be the normal means of adjusting it or any ability for an "electronic" means to do so....


Have asked the questrion of my local remapper and also on the Fiat forum.

I will try and remember to post any replies I get


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## fdhadi

LGC / Bill

122bhp is up to 2002 (Pre-Facelift)

127bhp is 2002 (Facelift) up to 2006

As stated, the 147bhp is only LHD 2002 (Facelift) on.


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## LittleGreyCat

fdhadi said:


> LGC / Bill
> 
> 122bhp is up to 2002 (Pre-Facelift)
> 
> 127bhp is 2002 (Facelift) up to 2006
> 
> As stated, the 147bhp is only LHD 2002 (Facelift) on.


This makes life even harder :-(

My van is first registered in 2002 but probably a 2001 chassis/engine because of the time taken to put the body on, ship and sell.

Doesn't have the ODB II socket in the cab, but instead a 3 pin connector under the bonnet near the ECU.

Presumably the engine number would show which variant it is if there was someone in Fiat who could look this up. Could a main dealer do this?

Cheers

LGC


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## spatz1

They should be able to tell you from the chassis number ....

Now had a close look at my turbo and its tiny compared to my car... Enough room around it to seat 4 for a leisurely meal !


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## fdhadi

Hello LGC

The later 2002 Facelift model has a grill (not for cooking  ) between the headlights.

The earlier 2002 has a metal plate.

Also, the Dashboard is different on each model. The Facelift model has a type of paper clip holder on top.

Pre-Facelift

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-Duca...0?pt=UK_Commercial_Trucks&hash=item2c5da36158

Facelift

http://www.parkers.co.uk/vans/reviews/fiat/ducato-1994.aspx


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## LittleGreyCat

Unfortunately this doesn't show up in the Hymer A Class because everything but the front of the chassis, engine and instrument panel is bespoke.

Will let everyone know what we find when we get the tuners in.

Cheers

LGC


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## duxdeluxe

You could try asking Darrell Coutinho of torquing BHP - he is based near to Cambridge. He has done work for myself (van) and quite a few colleagues.


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## BillCreer

fdhadi said:


> LGC / Bill
> 
> 122bhp is up to 2002 (Pre-Facelift)
> 
> 127bhp is 2002 (Facelift) up to 2006
> 
> As stated, the 147bhp is only LHD 2002 (Facelift) on.


Hi Frank,

Why do I see so many 2001 JTDs (127bhp) ?


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## LittleGreyCat

According to Chip Tuners the JTD started to appear in 2000.

As far as I can tell the years 2000 to 2002 were a transition time for the Fiat Ducato.

I suspect that they moved from old to new model in stages - this is what the motor industry tends to do when updating a model range.

In the (good?) old days they used to put the new engine in the old body and then upgrade the body once the new engine had settled down.

We used to have a Ford 107E Prefect.
This was the old 100E body (which usually had a side valve engine) with the new OHC engine destined for the Ford Anglia which replaced the Ford Prefect.

IIRC they also did this with Vauxhall Cavaliers just before they changed to the Vectra - you got some normal looking Cavaliers with an extra bit of oomph.

So I suspect that our Hymer was built during a murky transition period.

Anyway, planning to go with Chip Tuners and having two Hymers done at the same time.
The other one is 2001 first registered so we will see if that has the JTD in; I hope so.

Cheers

LGC


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## LittleGreyCat

spatz1 said:


> I v e been sifting through 2.8 RE map companies and what they claim to do.....
> 
> One of the strangest annomolies seems to be the fact they claim to re map and adjust the turbo in the process ( by that one would assume they increase the boost pressure as is normal)...
> 
> However, on close inspection of 2.8 turbo s i was suprised to see the waste gate (and thus the boost pressure ) is simply controlled by the usual manual diaphram but unusually linked straight back into the turbo pressure side....
> 
> http://screencast.com/t/mVTeOiGIgoR8
> 
> Doesnt seem to be the normal means of adjusting it or any ability for an "electronic" means to do so....


Fiat Forum appears to agree with you - I have posted an additional question for clarification:

Fiat Forum Turbo Question

Chip Tuners say:



> Thanks for your reply, the have 2 different types of ecu, earlier model you have to take ecu out to program,
> Also the earlier one has mechanical wastgate but we can get very good gains out if these. These tend to be before year 2000.
> Later ones have electronic wastegate and can be done via port.


The proof of the pudding will be in the remapping 

Planning to get both Hymers done next Friday and then I will report back.

Cheers

LGC


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## spatz1

interesting....

I cant see how the wastegate is electronic as they claim as there s no wires to it ...thus i d assume it is pre set to open the wastegate at a set pressure... 

my petrol car is a turbo and that has the early system your tuner talks of and that i am familiar with..... you can buy the chip for it and simply fit a pressure relief valve to adjust the boost using a guage, all DIY and you get an extra 50 HP easily.

Look forward to your results...


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## spatz1

spatz1 said:


> interesting....
> 
> I cant see how the wastegate is electronic as they claim as there s no wires to it ...thus i d assume it is pre set to open the wastegate at a set pressure...
> 
> my petrol car is a turbo and that has the early system your tuner talks of and that i am familiar with..... you can buy the chip for it and simply fit a pressure relief valve to adjust the boost using a guage, all DIY and you get an extra 50 HP easily.
> 
> Worth noting the wastegate actuators are infamous for becoming weak over time due to the heat they re exposed to and as reguards your question on adjustment,if i wernt cleaned up i d take a look to see if there is an adjusting screw where it atatches to the wastegate....
> 
> Look forward to your results...


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## fdhadi

Hi Bill / LGC

I'm obviously wrong  so please ignore my comments


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## spatz1

sussed it...

A search around the web , 5 minutes fiddling with the van and a quick test drive up the moorelands hills ....

Feels like a different van, loads more torque and although i couldnt fully test the gears on these roads, i doubt i ll be needing to change down in fifth as often as before....And hopefully i ll be able to test the fuel saving theory over the next week...


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## DTPCHEMICALS

LittleGreyCat:

We used to have a Ford 107E Prefect.


My first car was a 107e registration was 1935DT

It was £45 and my insurance was £48.
So the youngsters of today are no worse, in comparison than we were 41 years ago


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## LittleGreyCat

spatz1 said:


> sussed it...
> 
> A search around the web , 5 minutes fiddling with the van and a quick test drive up the moorelands hills ....
> 
> Feels like a different van, loads more torque and although i couldnt fully test the gears on these roads, i doubt i ll be needing to change down in fifth as often as before....And hopefully i ll be able to test the fuel saving theory over the next week...


Could you expand a little on what you have done?

Thanks

LGC


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## ched999uk

I would guess and it is a guess that he shortened the wastegate actuator rod. Basically you can adjust the length of the rod that opens the wastegate, by shortening it it opens at a little higher pressure. Normally shorten by a couple of turns. Thus you get more boost 

PS don't blame me if you adjust it and blow up your engine!!!


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## 747

I am told that if you remove the pressure sensor and fit one off a 2.3 engine, it is a cheap alternative to fitting a Tunit box (or similar).


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## spatz1

boost guage tee d in... upped boost by a set percentage by adjusting waste gate ... disconected battery for half hour to reset the ecu.

Its very straight forward and i have nt pushed the boundaries as i only wanted the smooth driving experience it offered and to eliminate the frequent gear changes....


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## LittleGreyCat

Quick update:

(1) Confirmed that neither Hymer has an ODB II port, so the ECU has to come out to be reprogrammed.

(2) Just had a call to say that the original chips in the ECU cannot be reprogrammed so new chips are on order and should arrive tomorrow a.m. - job to be finished by early afternoon.

(3) Confirmed that the turbo boost is controlled by the ECU in this model.

The two ECUs look identical - so they were marked up to make sure they went back in the same Hymer 

One Hymer is 2001 (Y) reg. and the other is 2002 (02) reg.
Both engines are the 2.8JTD.

Cheers

LGC

P.S. spent some time holding the umbrella so that Abid from Chip Tuners didn't get too we whilst taking the ECUs out.
What kind of summer is this?


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## ched999uk

Please report back on what you think of the change and the sort of price it is.
Cheers


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## 747

I sent my Tunit box back to Tunit yesterday for them to check if it was operating properly (the van is a bit sluggish on hills).

First class service from them as they phoned me this afternoon, said they had got it, it was working fine and they had reprogrammed it with a better programme. Mine is a 2004 model Tunit and they have refined them since mine was bought. It will be back here by 1 pm tomorrow and the cost is only £20 which includes p & p.

They have told me that they have reset the jumpers to the mid position (lower than before) and they reckon that I will see a difference.

Once I have tried out the van, I will post on the outcome. If anyone else has an older Tunit box fitted, it may be worth looking at an update.


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## fdhadi

Just looking at my Van Aaken Smartbox Fitting Instructions and its says:

Vehicle----Fiat Ducato
Engine----2.8jtd
Year-------2000 - 2006

So as Bill stated the jtd was fitted from 2000.


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## Kev1

The vehicle we bought
the previous owner booked in to have it re-mapped.When he took it in he was told because the throttle is a cable and not fly by wire. They couldn't do it.

is this correct. and secondly is there any other options

kev


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## LittleGreyCat

Kev1 said:


> The vehicle we bought
> the previous owner booked in to have it re-mapped.When he took it in he was told because the throttle is a cable and not fly by wire. They couldn't do it.
> 
> is this correct. and secondly is there any other options
> 
> kev


If I understand correctly you need an electronic throttle (which asks the ECU to increase the speed) to be able to reprogram an ECU in the way we are currently discussing.

I think that you can still increase the maximum turbo boost and possibly tune other aspects but it is much harder than remapping an ECU.

ECUs have made tuning much more flexible but people still tuned engines before they were invented.

Just requires a different kind of expertise.

HTH

LGC


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## LittleGreyCat

LittleGreyCat said:


> Quick update:
> 
> (1) Confirmed that neither Hymer has an ODB II port, so the ECU has to come out to be reprogrammed.
> 
> (2) Just had a call to say that the original chips in the ECU cannot be reprogrammed so new chips are on order and should arrive tomorrow a.m. - job to be finished by early afternoon.
> 
> (3) Confirmed that the turbo boost is controlled by the ECU in this model.
> 
> The two ECUs look identical - so they were marked up to make sure they went back in the same Hymer
> 
> One Hymer is 2001 (Y) reg. and the other is 2002 (02) reg.
> Both engines are the 2.8JTD.


Now all done.
The first test drive was encouraging and there seemed to be a lot more 'go' than before.
Coming up a slip road in fourth was particularly impressive.

Can't comment on increased MPG until after a long run, which won't be for a bit.
The other Hymer is off on its travels next week so that should be a good guide to any improvements.

We have been told that the ECU will take a couple of weeks to settle down as it learns the driving style and adapts.

One interesting thing we discovered; on a 'fly by wire' system the ECU can respond differently to a throttle being gently opened to full and someone flooring the throttle immediately.
Makes sense, but not something I had considered before, being used to cable throttles.
[Then again, did some carbs used to have a throttle pump which would chuck in extra fuel if your floored the accelerator? Long time ago, now...]

Will report back in a few weeks when we have more data.

Cheers

LGC


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## spatz1

little gray cat...

have you been able to test it on a motorway yet ?

I ve now done a 200 mile trip on country lanes and motorway with all passengers and everything full and the results are fully in!

on the motorway i cruised into a modest headwind at 70 and if pushed a little at times it felt like it would run away, but a wheel wobble made it comfier to ease off.......(it has stainless trims on that dont seem to fit centraly.)
country lanes, nippy is the word...and on one long very steep hill it just slipped below 40...


fuel consumption strangely hasnt changed at 25/26 and is not what i expected but am chuffed with...


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## LittleGreyCat

If you have just upped the maximum turbo boost then I would expect more performance at full throttle but no more MPG.

I think you need to modify the amount of fuel fed into the engine at a given throttle and turbo boost to improve MPG.

Cheers

LGC


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## LittleGreyCat

Now on a tour of Scotland, so MPG figures will be available in a while.

On the run up the MPG didn't seem to have improved much but then the MH wanted to cruise between 60 and 65 on the long motorway runs.

This is faster than it used to cruise - we used to cruise around 55.

Now off the motorways and doing country lanes and single track roads.

I think the MPG is a bit better but the fuel gauge is in fantasy land as usual so I will have to wait until the next fill up to check the figures.

There is certainly a lot more performance and general driveability has improved.

One conundrum - just because it will now pull hills in 5th gear (overdrive) is this the most efficient way to drive or is it better to change down?

Cheers

LGC


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## Jean-Luc

2.8 JTD Power was launched in 2004
Main characteristics are, 146 BHP, 310 Nm torque.
Bigger turbo with variable geometer vanes
Bigger inter-cooler
A 'flat' torque curve from 1500 RPM to over 3,000.


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## Tys

*2.8 bhp*

Hi,I have a 2000 544 2.8 i.d. TD,and the bhp is 122.
I have just had a mechanical tune,it is suggested it is now 145bhp.You can check,www.candmauto.co.uk,Mark is good


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## Jezport

*Re: 2.8 bhp*



Tys said:


> Hi,I have a 2000 544 2.8 i.d. TD,and the bhp is 122.
> I have just had a mechanical tune,it is suggested it is now 145bhp.You can check,www.candmauto.co.uk,Mark is good


How do you know the BHP? Has it been on a rolling road?


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## Tys

*bhp*

I would,nt know,I take the word of the person who done it.Thats why i paid a professional.Got no reason not to.


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## ched999uk

Tys: How does your MH feel after the 'tune'? Any change in MPG? What sort of price was the 'tune up'? 
Cheers


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## Tys

*Tune up*

Amazing difference not needing to change gear,so much,lower revs mpg must be better although i have not had a good check yet.I was having 24mpg before.The response thru all the gears is so different and hills are now a breeze.It cost £225,which i think is good.


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