# Winter Tyres



## BillCreer

Hi, 

Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-

"Dear Mr Creer 

Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings. 

I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."


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## Morphology

Many thanks for posting that - I'm considering a full set of M+S tyres before winter sets in, so it's useful to have the confirmation.

Morph


----------



## nicholsong

That may be correct, but while I cannot quote chapter qnd verse I think there are certain regions in the Alps which require chains to be carried.

But even then it does not seem to be clear if thy are required only for the driving/steering wheels or also for the 'passive' wheels?

Any definitive info out there?

Second Question, Are Camper Tyres and M&S available on the same tyre or are they mutually exclusive?

Geoff


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## BillCreer

nicholsong said:


> That may be correct, but while I cannot quote chapter qnd verse I think there are certain regions in the Alps which require chains to be carried.
> 
> But even then it does not seem to be clear if thy are required only for the driving/steering wheels or also for the 'passive' wheels?
> 
> Any definitive info out there?
> 
> Second Question, Are Camper Tyres and M&S available on the same tyre or are they mutually exclusive?
> 
> Geoff


Hi Geoff,

I count three questions. Chains have been covered else where but there is nothing like official confirmation.

I would have to think that the M&S must be fitted all round as they are required for braking, cornering as well as forward traction.

I think we are talking about tyres which are stamped with the M&S marking.

By the way Poland was excellent and I sure we'll be going again.


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## airstream

*winter v alpine*

Hi,
Prev topic clarified "winter" tyres are ok for general EU winter motering but not in certain alpine or severe weather areas unless marked with the snowflake /mountain stamp

"Yes, you are correct. The Latest Michelin Agilis Camping are an All-Season/Weather tyre M+S Marked. Suitable for Northern European Countries (not all of Scandinavia) as an All-Season Tyre. Gets complicated because for example, In Norway, despite highly recommending you drive on the appropriate tyre, it is not currently against the law to drive on Summer tyres in Winter.

Most European Alpine counties on the other hand insist that in Winter, you drive on winter tyres, certainly in mountainous terrain. That is Winter tyres with the Severe Snowflake Icon. All-Season, M+S tyres are not accepted as winter tyres.

To complicate matters further; Most true Winter tyres will carry the "M+S" Marking in addition to the Severe Winter Snowflake and or Mountain Icon.

Confused?

TM 
Regards Ray


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## teemyob

BillCreer said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-
> 
> "Dear Mr Creer
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."


I think, as per my response to the other post that I replied (quoted above). You need to dissect the reply from Michelin.

So

"I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws"

In what way does it conform to European Winter Tyre Laws?
Who's Winter Tyre Laws or which particular set?

"Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."

Notice in the wording above the word "Winter".

This is true (all though some countries have different opinions of the amount of MM's). These are know as Shoulder Treads. Once a Winter tyres drops below these Shoulder Treads, they do not grip as well and lose the softness. So they become more like conventional summer Tyres.

Looking at Michelins Website that I have highlighted below. The Michelin Agils Camping is clearly sold as a Summer Tyre.

TM


----------



## BillCreer

teemyob said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-
> 
> "Dear Mr Creer
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> 
> 
> I think, as per my response to the other post that I replied (quoted above). You need to dissect the reply from Michelin.
> 
> So
> 
> "I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws"
> 
> In what way does it conform to European Winter Tyre Laws?
> Who's Winter Tyre Laws or which particular set?
> 
> "Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> Notice in the wording above the word "Winter".
> 
> This is true (all though some countries have different opinions of the amount of MM's). These are know as Shoulder Treads. Once a Winter tyres drops below these Shoulder Treads, they do not grip as well and lose the softness. So they become more like conventional summer Tyres.
> 
> Looking at Michelins Website that I have highlighted below. The Michelin Agils Camping is clearly sold as a Summer Tyre.
> 
> TM
Click to expand...

Many of us know all the combinations of tyres that are available for different conditions and seasons. (including studs and chains)

What people are looking for is simple set of rules that get them around northern Europe during the winter months.

I believe Michelin have supplied that.

Yes they sell a summer tyre that can be also used in the winter.


----------



## Stanner

BillCreer said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-
> 
> "Dear Mr Creer
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> 
> 
> I think, as per my response to the other post that I replied (quoted above). You need to dissect the reply from Michelin.
> 
> So
> 
> "I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws"
> 
> In what way does it conform to European Winter Tyre Laws?
> Who's Winter Tyre Laws or which particular set?
> 
> "Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> Notice in the wording above the word "Winter".
> 
> This is true (all though some countries have different opinions of the amount of MM's). These are know as Shoulder Treads. Once a Winter tyres drops below these Shoulder Treads, they do not grip as well and lose the softness. So they become more like conventional summer Tyres.
> 
> Looking at Michelins Website that I have highlighted below. The Michelin Agils Camping is clearly sold as a Summer Tyre.
> 
> TM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many of us know all the combinations of tyres that are available for different conditions and seasons. (including studs and chains)
> 
> What people are looking for is simple set of rules that get them around northern Europe during the winter months.
> 
> I believe Michelin have supplied that.
> 
> Yes they sell a summer tyre that can be also used in the winter.
Click to expand...

But then Michelin neither make nor enforce the laws and as said there are NO "european" laws re: tyres each country makes and enforces their own.

I trust Michelin will send someone along to defend you when you rely on their interpretation of "european" law.?


----------



## BillCreer

Stanner said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-
> 
> "Dear Mr Creer
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> 
> 
> I think, as per my response to the other post that I replied (quoted above). You need to dissect the reply from Michelin.
> 
> So
> 
> "I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws"
> 
> In what way does it conform to European Winter Tyre Laws?
> Who's Winter Tyre Laws or which particular set?
> 
> "Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> Notice in the wording above the word "Winter".
> 
> This is true (all though some countries have different opinions of the amount of MM's). These are know as Shoulder Treads. Once a Winter tyres drops below these Shoulder Treads, they do not grip as well and lose the softness. So they become more like conventional summer Tyres.
> 
> Looking at Michelins Website that I have highlighted below. The Michelin Agils Camping is clearly sold as a Summer Tyre.
> 
> TM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many of us know all the combinations of tyres that are available for different conditions and seasons. (including studs and chains)
> 
> What people are looking for is simple set of rules that get them around northern Europe during the winter months.
> 
> I believe Michelin have supplied that.
> 
> Yes they sell a summer tyre that can be also used in the winter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But then Michelin neither make nor enforce the laws and as said there are NO "european" laws re: tyres each country makes and enforces their own.
> 
> I trust Michelin will send someone along to defend you when you rely on their interpretation of "european" law.?
Click to expand...

So you really think that the largest European Tyre Manufacturer is going to mislead its customers into buying tyres which brake the laws of European Countries? Why would they do that?


----------



## teemyob

BillCreer said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-
> 
> "Dear Mr Creer
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> 
> 
> I think, as per my response to the other post that I replied (quoted above). You need to dissect the reply from Michelin.
> 
> So
> 
> "I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws"
> 
> In what way does it conform to European Winter Tyre Laws?
> Who's Winter Tyre Laws or which particular set?
> 
> "Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> Notice in the wording above the word "Winter".
> 
> This is true (all though some countries have different opinions of the amount of MM's). These are know as Shoulder Treads. Once a Winter tyres drops below these Shoulder Treads, they do not grip as well and lose the softness. So they become more like conventional summer Tyres.
> 
> Looking at Michelins Website that I have highlighted below. The Michelin Agils Camping is clearly sold as a Summer Tyre.
> 
> TM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many of us know all the combinations of tyres that are available for different conditions and seasons. (including studs and chains)
> 
> What people are looking for is simple set of rules that get them around northern Europe during the winter months.
> 
> I believe Michelin have supplied that.
> 
> Yes they sell a summer tyre that can be also used in the winter.
Click to expand...

Bill,

You wrote

"Yes they sell a summer tyre that can be also used in the winter"

Many companies sell Summer Tyres. Vast majority of UK drivers use them all year. So yes they can also be used as in winter.

It is their suitability and more ipmportantly, there legality I am trying to clarify here.

Winter tyres don't just perform better in Snow and Mud. They have vastly improved traction on cold dry tarmac, wet roads, ice, slush and winter in general. They come into better use from around +8 - +11c (it Is August and here in Cheshire it is 11c outside now!).

Not wishing to get into a great debate over it, just trying to make the facts clear to other Motorhomers and drivers in general.

This is why I sited Michelins own website where they do not catagoricaly state that the Agilis Camping is a Winter tyre. They market it as a Summer tyre, suitable for use in mud and snow.

I harp on a about this issue a lot here on MHF. I just cannot seem to get my point across to so many. Mainly that, we drive on summer tyres all year in a climate that barely has such a thing. That is "summer".

We are just too used to driving on the wrong tyres or have too much of a misunderstanding of them.

We spend thousands on ICE, Solar Panels, Flat Screen TV's, Sat Domes etc etc. Yet we neglect the very things that keep these and our loved ones and our driving licenses safe, just because we think they are....

"A waste of money"
"No point in buying snow tyres, it only snows once a year"
"I don't drive in the snow"

And so on...

Read my many posts.

Time I gave up?

But before I do. I have just ordered 4 new sets of Winter tyres. you can bet that when the snow and ice (Winter :wink: ) does come, they can as much as quadruple in price.

So if you want some, best order now as when they have sold out at 4 x the September price, there may be none left, despite increased sales and production. Or, we will have an Indian summer and you can all Bar me from MHF.

Happy and Safe motoring.

TM


----------



## BillCreer

TM,

I've read your many posts on the subject and I see where you are coming from.

If money were no object or I had company that would be paying for them then I would have myself a set of "full winter" tyres and even a set of tungsten studded ones.
Trouble is that, for most people £1500 for a spare set of tyres and rims is not an option and if they have a legal solution already fitted to their van then I'm sure they would like to know.

I'm sure there was a bit of ice on the road when I was in Stockport last night.


----------



## teemyob

*ice*

No ice in Stockport yet. Plenty in Manchester where they get no sunlight and suffer from Rickets. Residents with Motorhomes, caravans and Passports Excluded.

TM


----------



## clive1821

teemyob said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-
> 
> "Dear Mr Creer
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> 
> 
> I think, as per my response to the other post that I replied (quoted above). You need to dissect the reply from Michelin.
> 
> So
> 
> "I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws"
> 
> In what way does it conform to European Winter Tyre Laws?
> Who's Winter Tyre Laws or which particular set?
> 
> "Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> Notice in the wording above the word "Winter".
> 
> This is true (all though some countries have different opinions of the amount of MM's). These are know as Shoulder Treads. Once a Winter tyres drops below these Shoulder Treads, they do not grip as well and lose the softness. So they become more like conventional summer Tyres.
> 
> Looking at Michelins Website that I have highlighted below. The Michelin Agils Camping is clearly sold as a Summer Tyre.
> 
> TM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many of us know all the combinations of tyres that are available for different conditions and seasons. (including studs and chains)
> 
> What people are looking for is simple set of rules that get them around northern Europe during the winter months.
> 
> I believe Michelin have supplied that.
> 
> Yes they sell a summer tyre that can be also used in the winter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bill,
> 
> You wrote
> 
> "Yes they sell a summer tyre that can be also used in the winter"
> 
> Many companies sell Summer Tyres. Vast majority of UK drivers use them all year. So yes they can also be used as in winter.
> 
> It is their suitability and more ipmportantly, there legality I am trying to clarify here.
> 
> Winter tyres don't just perform better in Snow and Mud. They have vastly improved traction on cold dry tarmac, wet roads, ice, slush and winter in general. They come into better use from around +8 - +11c (it Is August and here in Cheshire it is 11c outside now!).
> 
> Not wishing to get into a great debate over it, just trying to make the facts clear to other Motorhomers and drivers in general.
> 
> This is why I sited Michelins own website where they do not catagoricaly state that the Agilis Camping is a Winter tyre. They market it as a Summer tyre, suitable for use in mud and snow.
> 
> I harp on a about this issue a lot here on MHF. I just cannot seem to get my point across to so many. Mainly that, we drive on summer tyres all year in a climate that barely has such a thing. That is "summer".
> 
> We are just too used to driving on the wrong tyres or have too much of a misunderstanding of them.
> 
> We spend thousands on ICE, Solar Panels, Flat Screen TV's, Sat Domes etc etc. Yet we neglect the very things that keep these and our loved ones and our driving licenses safe, just because we think they are....
> 
> "A waste of money"
> "No point in buying snow tyres, it only snows once a year"
> "I don't drive in the snow"
> 
> And so on...
> 
> Read my many posts.
> 
> Time I gave up?
> 
> But before I do. I have just ordered 4 new sets of Winter tyres. you can bet that when the snow and ice (Winter :wink: ) does come, they can as much as quadruple in price.
> 
> So if you want some, best order now as when they have sold out at 4 x the September price, there may be none left, despite increased sales and production. Or, we will have an Indian summer and you can all Bar me from MHF.
> 
> Happy and Safe motoring.
> 
> TM
Click to expand...

Which make and type of tyre would you recomend for winter use? as you say winter is here as well with my heating on here  and I'm going to have to get 6 more tyres and rims kissing good bye to £2000 ish


----------



## teemyob

clive1821 said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-
> 
> "Dear Mr Creer
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> 
> 
> I think, as per my response to the other post that I replied (quoted above). You need to dissect the reply from Michelin.
> 
> So
> 
> "I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws"
> 
> In what way does it conform to European Winter Tyre Laws?
> Who's Winter Tyre Laws or which particular set?
> 
> "Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> Notice in the wording above the word "Winter".
> 
> This is true (all though some countries have different opinions of the amount of MM's). These are know as Shoulder Treads. Once a Winter tyres drops below these Shoulder Treads, they do not grip as well and lose the softness. So they become more like conventional summer Tyres.
> 
> Looking at Michelins Website that I have highlighted below. The Michelin Agils Camping is clearly sold as a Summer Tyre.
> 
> TM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many of us know all the combinations of tyres that are available for different conditions and seasons. (including studs and chains)
> 
> What people are looking for is simple set of rules that get them around northern Europe during the winter months.
> 
> I believe Michelin have supplied that.
> 
> Yes they sell a summer tyre that can be also used in the winter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bill,
> 
> You wrote
> 
> "Yes they sell a summer tyre that can be also used in the winter"
> 
> Many companies sell Summer Tyres. Vast majority of UK drivers use them all year. So yes they can also be used as in winter.
> 
> It is their suitability and more ipmportantly, there legality I am trying to clarify here.
> 
> Winter tyres don't just perform better in Snow and Mud. They have vastly improved traction on cold dry tarmac, wet roads, ice, slush and winter in general. They come into better use from around +8 - +11c (it Is August and here in Cheshire it is 11c outside now!).
> 
> Not wishing to get into a great debate over it, just trying to make the facts clear to other Motorhomers and drivers in general.
> 
> This is why I sited Michelins own website where they do not catagoricaly state that the Agilis Camping is a Winter tyre. They market it as a Summer tyre, suitable for use in mud and snow.
> 
> I harp on a about this issue a lot here on MHF. I just cannot seem to get my point across to so many. Mainly that, we drive on summer tyres all year in a climate that barely has such a thing. That is "summer".
> 
> We are just too used to driving on the wrong tyres or have too much of a misunderstanding of them.
> 
> We spend thousands on ICE, Solar Panels, Flat Screen TV's, Sat Domes etc etc. Yet we neglect the very things that keep these and our loved ones and our driving licenses safe, just because we think they are....
> 
> "A waste of money"
> "No point in buying snow tyres, it only snows once a year"
> "I don't drive in the snow"
> 
> And so on...
> 
> Read my many posts.
> 
> Time I gave up?
> 
> But before I do. I have just ordered 4 new sets of Winter tyres. you can bet that when the snow and ice (Winter :wink: ) does come, they can as much as quadruple in price.
> 
> So if you want some, best order now as when they have sold out at 4 x the September price, there may be none left, despite increased sales and production. Or, we will have an Indian summer and you can all Bar me from MHF.
> 
> Happy and Safe motoring.
> 
> TM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which make and type of tyre would you recomend for winter use? as you say winter is here as well with my heating on here  and I'm going to have to get 6 more tyres and rims kissing good bye to £2000 ish
Click to expand...

What Size?

I paid

£420 for 6 Michelin Agilis Alpin 205/75/16C's (Went as high as £227 each December 2010)
£430 for 4 michelin Agilis Aplin 235/65/16C's

TM

PS: Not gold we should be investing in, more rubber. As many do, without ever seeing it!.


----------



## clive1821

Ok £420 for 6 tyres fitted is very good I was looking around £150.00 each I'll order some up at that price I assume from any local tyre garage, and not via the discount internet sites? as that can become a real pain....

Thanks for the info

Clive


----------



## BillCreer

teemyob said:


> clive1821 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-
> 
> "Dear Mr Creer
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> 
> 
> I think, as per my response to the other post that I replied (quoted above). You need to dissect the reply from Michelin.
> 
> So
> 
> "I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws"
> 
> In what way does it conform to European Winter Tyre Laws?
> Who's Winter Tyre Laws or which particular set?
> 
> "Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> Notice in the wording above the word "Winter".
> 
> This is true (all though some countries have different opinions of the amount of MM's). These are know as Shoulder Treads. Once a Winter tyres drops below these Shoulder Treads, they do not grip as well and lose the softness. So they become more like conventional summer Tyres.
> 
> Looking at Michelins Website that I have highlighted below. The Michelin Agils Camping is clearly sold as a Summer Tyre.
> 
> TM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many of us know all the combinations of tyres that are available for different conditions and seasons. (including studs and chains)
> 
> What people are looking for is simple set of rules that get them around northern Europe during the winter months.
> 
> I believe Michelin have supplied that.
> 
> Yes they sell a summer tyre that can be also used in the winter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bill,
> 
> You wrote
> 
> "Yes they sell a summer tyre that can be also used in the winter"
> 
> Many companies sell Summer Tyres. Vast majority of UK drivers use them all year. So yes they can also be used as in winter.
> 
> It is their suitability and more ipmportantly, there legality I am trying to clarify here.
> 
> Winter tyres don't just perform better in Snow and Mud. They have vastly improved traction on cold dry tarmac, wet roads, ice, slush and winter in general. They come into better use from around +8 - +11c (it Is August and here in Cheshire it is 11c outside now!).
> 
> Not wishing to get into a great debate over it, just trying to make the facts clear to other Motorhomers and drivers in general.
> 
> This is why I sited Michelins own website where they do not catagoricaly state that the Agilis Camping is a Winter tyre. They market it as a Summer tyre, suitable for use in mud and snow.
> 
> I harp on a about this issue a lot here on MHF. I just cannot seem to get my point across to so many. Mainly that, we drive on summer tyres all year in a climate that barely has such a thing. That is "summer".
> 
> We are just too used to driving on the wrong tyres or have too much of a misunderstanding of them.
> 
> We spend thousands on ICE, Solar Panels, Flat Screen TV's, Sat Domes etc etc. Yet we neglect the very things that keep these and our loved ones and our driving licenses safe, just because we think they are....
> 
> "A waste of money"
> "No point in buying snow tyres, it only snows once a year"
> "I don't drive in the snow"
> 
> And so on...
> 
> Read my many posts.
> 
> Time I gave up?
> 
> But before I do. I have just ordered 4 new sets of Winter tyres. you can bet that when the snow and ice (Winter :wink: ) does come, they can as much as quadruple in price.
> 
> So if you want some, best order now as when they have sold out at 4 x the September price, there may be none left, despite increased sales and production. Or, we will have an Indian summer and you can all Bar me from MHF.
> 
> Happy and Safe motoring.
> 
> TM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which make and type of tyre would you recomend for winter use? as you say winter is here as well with my heating on here  and I'm going to have to get 6 more tyres and rims kissing good bye to £2000 ish
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What Size?
> 
> I paid
> 
> £420 for 6 Michelin Agilis Alpin 205/75/16C's (Went as high as £227 each December 2010)
> £430 for 4 michelin Agilis Aplin 235/65/16C's
> 
> TM
> 
> PS: Not gold we should be investing in, more rubber. As many do, without ever seeing it!.
Click to expand...

£70 a tyre is an incredible price. 
It cost me £140 for each Agilis Camping, last month, for 15" but the same profile


----------



## teemyob

*Pain*



clive1821 said:


> Ok £420 for 6 tyres fitted is very good I was looking around £150.00 each I'll order some up at that price I assume from any local tyre garage, and not via the discount internet sites? as that can become a real pain....
> 
> Thanks for the info
> 
> Clive


I bought from Tyre dealers In height of summer. They needed to shift stock for cashflow.

Where do you live?
Why is it a pain?

I have a few contact in the trade who can help you from £7.50-£15 a tyre, mainly up in the NW.

But otherwise, simply ring around or visit www.mytyres.co.uk and look at their fitting station/postcode list. If you have a motorhome and some time, easy.

One of the best companies for commercial tyres is

Ashton Tyres - Poynton

Nowhere near any Ashton's any more, In Poynton, Cheshire. Helpful, amiable but need some hints and help themsleves sometimes (like how to remove chrome Eurotrims and Valve extenders).

But £80 inc VAT to change 6 tyres they did not/could not supply I thought was fair dunkum.

TM


----------



## teemyob

*Tyre Fitters*

Other Tyre Fitters - Mainly Limited to 3500kG's and size

Total Car Services - Poynton and Stockport 
MiniMax - Stockport (ask for Lee)

NTS Barlow Works, Higher Barlow Row, Stockport , SK1 3DD Tel: 0161 429 8907  (Ask for Mike - Years of experience from £7.50 a tyre)
Tyre Mountain - Stockport

But if you want HGV sizes, Ashton Tyres in Ponton or just have a good ring around.

TM


----------



## Stanner

BillCreer said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-
> 
> "Dear Mr Creer
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> 
> 
> I think, as per my response to the other post that I replied (quoted above). You need to dissect the reply from Michelin.
> 
> So
> 
> "I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws"
> 
> In what way does it conform to European Winter Tyre Laws?
> Who's Winter Tyre Laws or which particular set?
> 
> "Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> Notice in the wording above the word "Winter".
> 
> This is true (all though some countries have different opinions of the amount of MM's). These are know as Shoulder Treads. Once a Winter tyres drops below these Shoulder Treads, they do not grip as well and lose the softness. So they become more like conventional summer Tyres.
> 
> Looking at Michelins Website that I have highlighted below. The Michelin Agils Camping is clearly sold as a Summer Tyre.
> 
> TM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many of us know all the combinations of tyres that are available for different conditions and seasons. (including studs and chains)
> 
> What people are looking for is simple set of rules that get them around northern Europe during the winter months.
> 
> I believe Michelin have supplied that.
> 
> Yes they sell a summer tyre that can be also used in the winter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But then Michelin neither make nor enforce the laws and as said there are NO "european" laws re: tyres each country makes and enforces their own.
> 
> I trust Michelin will send someone along to defend you when you rely on their interpretation of "european" law.?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you really think that the largest European Tyre Manufacturer is going to mislead its customers into buying tyres which brake the laws of European Countries? Why would they do that?
Click to expand...

We currently have a practicing lawyer on this site who is convinced that the Directgov website is currently offering misleading information on whether or not it is legal to drive/use a SORN'd vehicle on the road to attend an MOT test.

Now why would they do that?

How about going back to your expert on "european" law at Michelin and asking them if Michelin will indemnify you against conviction in any EU country if you rely on their advice?

I would be very interested to read the reply. If they are so certain that tyre does not require the snowflake/mountain symbol to be considered a winter tyre they will be happy to do so.


----------



## BillCreer

Stanner said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-
> 
> "Dear Mr Creer
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> 
> 
> I think, as per my response to the other post that I replied (quoted above). You need to dissect the reply from Michelin.
> 
> So
> 
> "I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws"
> 
> In what way does it conform to European Winter Tyre Laws?
> Who's Winter Tyre Laws or which particular set?
> 
> "Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> Notice in the wording above the word "Winter".
> 
> This is true (all though some countries have different opinions of the amount of MM's). These are know as Shoulder Treads. Once a Winter tyres drops below these Shoulder Treads, they do not grip as well and lose the softness. So they become more like conventional summer Tyres.
> 
> Looking at Michelins Website that I have highlighted below. The Michelin Agils Camping is clearly sold as a Summer Tyre.
> 
> TM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many of us know all the combinations of tyres that are available for different conditions and seasons. (including studs and chains)
> 
> What people are looking for is simple set of rules that get them around northern Europe during the winter months.
> 
> I believe Michelin have supplied that.
> 
> Yes they sell a summer tyre that can be also used in the winter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But then Michelin neither make nor enforce the laws and as said there are NO "european" laws re: tyres each country makes and enforces their own.
> 
> I trust Michelin will send someone along to defend you when you rely on their interpretation of "european" law.?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you really think that the largest European Tyre Manufacturer is going to mislead its customers into buying tyres which brake the laws of European Countries? Why would they do that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We currently have a practicing lawyer on this site who is convinced that the Directgov website is currently offering misleading information on whether or not it is legal to drive/use a SORN'd vehicle on the road to attend an MOT test.
> 
> Now why would they do that?
> 
> How about going back to your expert on "european" law at Michelin and asking them if Michelin will indemnify you against conviction in any EU country if you rely on their advice?
> 
> I would be very interested to read the reply. If they are so certain that tyre does not require the snowflake/mountain symbol to be considered a winter tyre they will be happy to do so.
Click to expand...

Stanner,

Can I have that in writing from your practicing lawyer? On second thoughts don't bother because it's irrelevant.

If Ford sold you a car that they said conformed to Euro 5 Emission standards and a ploiceman in Germany found that it wasn't designed to do so. Who would they prosecute?

I'll let people judge for themselves if they think Michelin are in the business of lying to their customers.


----------



## Morphology

ignoring, for a moment, whether they are legally acceptible as a Winter tyre in the alps or Scandinavia....

Are the Michelin Agilis Camping M+S Tyres any good in Mud and Snow?? Are there better ones?


----------



## BillCreer

Morphology said:


> ignoring, for a moment, whether they are legally acceptible as a Winter tyre in the alps or Scandinavia....
> 
> Are the Michelin Agilis Camping M+S Tyres any good in Mud and Snow?? Are there better ones?


They're fantastic.

To be honest I've no idea.


----------



## Stanner

BillCreer said:


> Stanner,
> 
> Can I have that in writing from your practicing lawyer? On second thoughts don't bother because it's irrelevant.
> 
> If Ford sold you a car that they said conformed to Euro 5 Emission standards and a ploiceman in Germany found that it wasn't designed to do so. Who would they prosecute?
> 
> I'll let people judge for themselves if they think Michelin are in the business of lying to their customers.


But it is the point - things are often written in the best possible faith that are wrong.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that no company has ever given wrong advice?

The relevant reference is this thread 
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-110847-20.html

and the practicing lawyer is thieawin.
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/forum-userprofile-10932.html

I never ever once suggested that Michelin are "lying" as you put it, simply expressing their interpretation of what they see as "european law" and it is clear from the research I have done that there is considerable confusion both within and without the tyre trade as to the relative meanings of M+S and the mountain/snowflake symbol.

I fear it may take a court case to finally settle the argument.


----------



## nicholsong

I have been reading you all on this and other threads for some time.

I think I know that I need tyres marked with the 'Snowflake' mark (someone wrote 'Severe Snowflke'b but I assume that was a mistake) to comply with most Alpine regions. [if ordering how does one describe the 'snowflake' spec?]

However, I am still not clear which countries and regions require chains to be carried. Is there a helpful site? Would we be expecting too much for the EU Commission to produce a leaflet to explain what their Sovereign States have in the way of different rules/laws?

On to practicalities. For the following trip what are my options for tyres?

Leave Poland mid-march for skiing in Austria?Switzerland, April in UK for MOT, depart for Greece for summer, return to Poland in Nov, in what will be technically 'winter' fo some countries.

I do not have payload to carry spare tyres.

If I run on winter tyres all year what are going to be the extra costs in wear and reduced mpg?

Geoff


----------



## clive1821

Hi TW,

I had a look at the web site you mentioned and they are looking at £152.000 which is about the pricing I was expecting the size of my tyres are the standard 215/75/16c with the weight over the rear axels of about 3.5 tonne, but thank you for the information..... just to sum it up I understand the best bet for normal European (france, Italy, Spain etc) driving and NOT alpine work the standard all weather will be ok as I do not do the cold :roll: 

Regards


Clive


----------



## BillCreer

Stanner said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner,
> 
> Can I have that in writing from your practicing lawyer? On second thoughts don't bother because it's irrelevant.
> 
> If Ford sold you a car that they said conformed to Euro 5 Emission standards and a ploiceman in Germany found that it wasn't designed to do so. Who would they prosecute?
> 
> I'll let people judge for themselves if they think Michelin are in the business of lying to their customers.
> 
> 
> 
> But it is the point - things are often written in the best possible faith that are wrong.
> 
> Are you seriously trying to tell me that no company has ever given wrong advice?
> 
> The relevant reference is this thread
> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-110847-20.html
> 
> and the practicing lawyer is thieawin.
> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/forum-userprofile-10932.html
> 
> I never ever once suggested that Michelin are "lying" as you put it, simply expressing their interpretation of what they see as "european law" and it is clear from the research I have done that there is considerable confusion both within and without the tyre trade as to the relative meanings of M+S and the mountain/snowflake symbol.
> 
> I fear it may take a court case to finally settle the argument.
Click to expand...

Hi Stanner,

I've never been the messenger who was shot before.

I could see that people were being confused by information overload and with what was sometimes confusing and missleading information.
I thought I'd do what no one else had bothered to do and ask Europes Biggest Tyre manufacturer to give a difinitive statement. Which they did.

I do wonder if John Wright (Thiewin) would be happy, from a legal perspective, to drive round Europe in the winter on Agilis 2 camping M&S tyres?

Wouldn't blame him if he didn't give an opinion though.

If you say that someone is supplying you with information which is not true then you are accusing them of lying.


----------



## airstream

*"summer M+S"*

Hi All,
Bit of info re "summer" M+S
"The Austrian automobile, motorcycle and touring club ÖAMTC recently carried out road tests with summer tyres carrying the M+S symbol. "The braking distance from 50km/h on a snowy road was more than double the braking distance with a proper winter tyre," said ÖAMTC tyre expert Friedrich Eppel. "During the test, when the car with the winter tyres had already come to a standstill, the car with the poor quality tyres was still travelling at a residual speed of around 38 km/h," he warned.

The Austrian test expert adds that the different traction forces when moving off were just as dangerous: Anyone pulling out of a snowed-in parking space or slip road with the pseudo winter tyres soon became a safety risk to other road users. The test car with the incorrect tyres took more than twice as long to accelerate from nought to 30 km/h in the snow. Moving off at traffic lights or even on a hill became a matter of luck rather than normality. Eppel concluded by saying that you should only purchase winter tyres with expert advice, and not just by looking at the price: "If you buy cheaply, you often pay more later." The complete test is available - although unfortunately not in English - on the ÖAMTC homepage at www.oeamtc.at/reifentests.

Those wanting a "real" winter tyre, concludes Continental, are recommended to look out for not only the legally prescribed M+S marking, but also the snowflake symbol and a minimum tread depth of 4 mm.
Regards Ray


----------



## Cherekee

Hi

Not wanting to repeat my comments on many previous threads but will anyway. In Austria it is not classed as a snow tyre unless the snowflake is stamped on the side wall (normally next to the M & S). I fitted Continental Vanco Winter 2 nearly 3 years ago and have done 15k on them summer and winter. They do what they say on the box. In snow they are fantastic, on grass they are very good, the breaking in wet conditions is far superior to camper tyres and they are very quiet to drive on. My milage has not suffered at all. They will last for the full 5 years before I need to change them on age. Price was about £500 for 4 fitted. (in Guernsey).

Safe driving

Alan


----------



## BillCreer

Cherekee said:


> Hi
> 
> Not wanting to repeat my comments on many previous threads but will anyway. In Austria it is not classed as a snow tyre unless the snowflake is stamped on the side wall (normally next to the M & S). I fitted Continental Vanco Winter 2 nearly 3 years ago and have done 15k on them summer and winter. They do what they say on the box. In snow they are fantastic, on grass they are very good, the breaking in wet conditions is far superior to camper tyres and they are very quiet to drive on. My milage has not suffered at all. They will last for the full 5 years before I need to change them on age. Price was about £500 for 4 fitted. (in Guernsey).
> 
> Safe driving
> 
> Alan


Hi, from the same source as Airstream PSA

Since January 2008, applies to drivers on roads in Austria, one winter gear required.

For passenger cars, passenger cars and light or heavy trailer for small truck (ie up to 3.5 tonnes and B driver's license) shall apply from 1 November to 15 April the following year, a weather-dependent winter duty equipment: passenger car and small truck drivers have to winter driving conditions, the following two ways:
1st Winter tires
Roadway in snow, slush or ice must be fitted to all wheels winter tires. Motorists should regularly monitor the weather reports. Easy road wetness, for example, when the temperature drops to be ice and then applies the winter tires mandatory

Labeling approved winter tires
As winter tires are legally recognized those names with the 'M + S', 'MS' or 'M & S' are identified and at least 4 mm, with cross-ply tires have tread depth of 5 mm. This also applies to so-called all-season tires, all-weather tires and studded tires.

2nd Summer tires with snow chains
As an alternative to winter tires you can mount snow chains on at least two drive wheels. This is only allowed if the road continuously or almost continuously covered with snow or ice.
The chains are mounted on the wheels of the drive axle. Who should have summer tires on the car, during long trips in any case carry snow chains in your trunk.

Trailer

The Law (CFG), there is no explicit prohibition, winter tires on the towing vehicle and trailer to use on summer tires (and vice versa). This applies to both light and heavy unbraked (braked) trailer. Regarding spikes fitted but there is the rule with similar tires trailer as the tractor vehicle. The ÖAMTC recommends that doubts about a trailer that will be utilized not only in the summer months to use more winter or all-season tires.

Punish

Who now drives in wintry road conditions, winter tires without risking a penalty of 35 €. If other road users at risk, even theoretically threaten up to 5,000 euro fine.
Coercive measures as a last resort
Those who stubbornly refuses to winter gear of his car - neither snow nor winter tire chains creates - and will therefore be a risk to road safety can be drawn in the truest sense of the word of the police from the traffic.
Burden of proof in accident with summer tires
If the car driver who has been on the road with summer tires prove not that the same accident would have happened even with winter gear, meets him at least a portion of the fault.

What the insurance pays whom? The insurance can refuse a payment?

If the driver of a not unduly car equipped with winter tires caused the damage, which must replace the injured party liability insurance for the damage.
After the previous decisions of the courts, the insurance arm of the summer car tires do not require repayment. The new legal situation (weather-dependent winter gear required), however, are yet no verdicts.
The insurance may, of course the driver of the car summer tires a payment because of "gross negligence" reject if other circumstances (eg excessive speed, with-the-phone-calls) were added.

ÖAMTC legal advice

Not sure of the question of fault after an accident or if the insurance claims processing buttoned at the shows, the contact with the lawyers recommended the club.

Winter equipment required for buses and trucks

Independent (!) Of the weather situation and the road surface may handlebars of buses over 3.5 tonnes maximum gross weight of their vehicles during the period from 1 November to 15 March used only if at least one driving the wheels cause winter tires are mounted. For trucks over 3.5 tonnes maximum gross weight of the same obligation applies from 1 November to 15 April. In addition must be carried in the same periods, snow chains.

Instead of winter tires is the use of tires with a Purpose "special" permits, it is changing the tires for use on road and off. Winter tires have the marking M + S, MS or M & S or fitted with special tires with ET, ML or its MPT. The minimum tread depth is 5 mm in radial tire design and 6 mm in cross-ply tires.

Excluded are vehicles of the public security service, army and fire brigade vehicles, which because of its predominant purpose of using the installation of winter tires is not possible or advisable, as well as vehicles with which trial or transfer of trips are carried out.
Exempt from the duty winter gear
Cars are moped, scooters, mopeds and motorcycles


----------



## teemyob

*Car Tyres*

If you are considering car tyres, this is what I now fit.

Goodyear also do a highly rated All-Season M+S Rated version.

These were being sold as marked with a severe winter snowflake Icon. Just to confuse matters. But I notice they have since been removed, so I don't know if they do or dont have it. Vector 4 Seasons

TM


----------



## ActiveCampers

Just to add my 2p.

I put on Vanco Winter 2 winter tyres with snowflake/mountain/M&S pictures.

The difference in the snow is IMMENSE. As in on normal tyres I used to lose grip on slight motorway inclines. With these, I was overtaking sliding lorries.... (don't read that in a macho speeding past sense!!!).

Going snowboarding I overtook other vans stuck going up the mountain. I did however decide to put chains on as well as driving on pack ice roads was interesting, and though the tyres never let go, I didn't want to risk it.

Chains SHOULD be carried in the mountains (I believe carrying is mandatory).

I've also taken the same tyres down to Morocco and the Sahara and they seem good on sand!! So extreme cold and heat and they have been fine. No noticable noise or less summer grip.

Wear is more though, 3mm down in 12,000 miles (tyres come with 10mm) - so maybe 25,000-30,000 life span? (old tyres did 40,000 and had 3mm left when changed)


----------



## nicholsong

Activecampers

Your post contains very useful info for those of us having to make practical decisions about tyres for real winter.

Just to clarify your mm wear figures, you said same tyres in snow and Sahara, so did you use same tyres year-round and do the figures relate to that use?

Reason for questiion is next year may be away from 'base' so no chance to change tyres.

Geoff


----------



## teemyob

*Tips*

I got some tyres delivered today from mytyres (took 3 days from Germany by DPD) and got a fitter I have used for years to mount them for me.

He tells me as many as 1/4 of customers are already requesting winter tyres. My Daughter had a text message from Audi last week asking her to register interest for Winter Tyres.

Anyone who wants winter tyres for Vans or Motorhomes, might want to try these two ebay sellers, Father and son.

drivers-best-buys

or

the4x4tyreshop1

But if you are serious about wanting some decent M+S All-Season or Winter tyres. I would suggest you buy them before the end of October or certainly before the first snowy or icy weather.

You can expect the prices to at least double and as much as treble if we had a winter like the last one. Which is what happened to the prices.

You may also be interested in reading through some of this

MHF Tyre Topic here<

or some of the arguments And opinions here

Whilst it may seem that some Countries may accept M+S as acceptable for severe Winter use. Please accept that there is a vast difference between All-Season M+S and True Winter tyres that may also carry the M+S Branding.

Where an All-Season M+S tyre may skate along ice, A True Winter tyre should stop much shorter.

Please be sure to check with your insurers too.

Two tyres I would avoid are

Michelin's Old XC Campers - If there are any left now

Goodyear Cargo Vector These tyres are Branded M+S and are hopeless on wet tarmac let alone Snow or Mud. They also give off a very harsh droning sound on VW T5's. Especially when cornering.

TM


----------



## ActiveCampers

nicholsong said:


> Activecampers
> 
> Your post contains very useful info for those of us having to make practical decisions about tyres for real winter.
> 
> Just to clarify your mm wear figures, you said same tyres in snow and Sahara, so did you use same tyres year-round and do the figures relate to that use?
> 
> Reason for questiion is next year may be away from 'base' so no chance to change tyres.
> 
> Geoff


Hi.

I have had the winter tyres on since November/December and the wear is since then - including a snow, sahara, south of france - so yep - constant use and 12,000m with the wear indicated.

I spoke to Continental prior to purchase to confirm they would be okay in the hot stuff and they said yes. (see my other posts on topic on here etc).

We will probably run winters all year every year as though they wear quicker, the winter (and cold/wet for that matter) is far better than the original tyres.


----------



## coppo

ActiveCampers said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> Activecampers
> 
> Your post contains very useful info for those of us having to make practical decisions about tyres for real winter.
> 
> Just to clarify your mm wear figures, you said same tyres in snow and Sahara, so did you use same tyres year-round and do the figures relate to that use?
> 
> Reason for questiion is next year may be away from 'base' so no chance to change tyres.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> 
> 
> Hi.
> 
> I have had the winter tyres on since November/December and the wear is since then - including a snow, sahara, south of france - so yep - constant use and 12,000m with the wear indicated.
> 
> I spoke to Continental prior to purchase to confirm they would be okay in the hot stuff and they said yes. (see my other posts on topic on here etc).
> 
> We will probably run winters all year every year as though they wear quicker, the winter (and cold/wet for that matter) is far better than the original tyres.
Click to expand...

Agree with all that.

We have continental vanco winters on and they are brilliant, wonderful tyres, really smooth ride, go through anything, slush, ice, snow and mud.

We are changing the MH in a couple of weeksn and cannot afford to put them on the new to us MH, our size vanco winter 2 tyres are £173.40 each and we need 6 of em, thats over a grand.

Instead i am going for Toyo H09 winters, not used them yet but heard a lot olf good reports, and a lot cheaper. If they are half as good as the vancos i will be happy.

Paul.


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## hampsterracing

coppo said:


> Instead i am going for Toyo H09 winters, not used them yet but heard a lot olf good reports, and a lot cheaper. If they are half as good as the vancos i will be happy.
> 
> Paul.


A report on the toyo's once you have run them would be great as i have been looking at these.

Roger


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## teemyob

*Toyo H09*



hampsterracing said:


> coppo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Instead i am going for Toyo H09 winters, not used them yet but heard a lot olf good reports, and a lot cheaper. If they are half as good as the vancos i will be happy.
> 
> Paul.
> 
> 
> 
> A report on the toyo's once you have run them would be great as i have been looking at these.
> 
> Roger
Click to expand...

Toyo H09 Reviews in here

And there are quite a few others if you type "toyo and h09" in the search field.

I have recommended them to a few on here. There are some confusion as to the markings. Some sell them as winter, some as all-season. Some have said they have bought them and had no snowflake!

TM


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## joedenise

Had HO9s on for several months now and have never slipped on ice or snow once since we put them on. :lol: 
Traction is a lot better on wet grass though. Noisier than the old Michelins but not too bad. No sign of wear yet.

Joe


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## teemyob

I have just changed the Tyres on my Van (MB Traveliner). I run on winters all year but the van came to me with summers on. 

The summers that were on were very hard and fairly worn. The New Michelin Alpins have transformed the vehicle. 

It is Quieter on Winters 
Grip is greatly improved 
Softer, more cushioned ride. 

TM


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## 99447

*Re: Toyo H09*

Roger[/quote]

I have recommended them to a few on here. There are some confusion as to the markings. Some sell them as winter, some as all-season. Some have said they have bought them and had no snowflake!

TM[/quote]

Follow up on this, I asked Toyo if H09 were full winter tyre with Snowflake symbol. Response from technical director:

"It does depends on the production date, early tyres did not have it, but tyres produced from mid-2012 will have it."


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## Kev1

Thanks any info on winter tyres is appreciated.

Did you hear the story about the camper who had winter tyres and they were gassed by snowmen to put them on bricks and nick the wheels.


JOKING!!!!!!

JOKING!!!!"!!!!

I SAID JOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## trek

Still running my camper on its winter tyres ( changed the car back to summers just after Easter)

as the weather hadn't improved that much I thought I would benefit from the improved traction on soft wet muddy fields by leaving the winters on camper

which certainly proved the case last weekend with quite a few people having problems at the site we were on

now with summer here starting to think it may be time to change them soon


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## nicholsong

I also run on winter tyres all year.

I accept that there might be a bit more wear, but with the mileage we and I expect most MHs do they will be time-expired before they are worn thin. There is maybe a bit lower mpg. I think any marginal cost is many times more offset by not having the cost of buying two sets of tyres after 5-7(however long one chooses to keep them) and of paying to change them over twice a year.

As far as braking performance is concerned I think at the speeds I drive the MH the extra braking efficiency is not much and I compensate by, even more, cautious driving.

Geoff


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## Kev1

Trek
Don't be daft.
Leave em on Summer only lasts one to two weeks then autumn heavy rain and slippery leaves
Then hey ho it's winter again


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## trek

its a dilemma I know but I think that I will be putting the summers back on soon 

it certainly has been an advantage keeping the winters on until now with the damp soft camping fields that we have been using , ( can't really tell if its made a difference as we are RWD but I like to feel it has )

last week end our chocks sunk down level into the soft ground - friends in their FWD's got stuck as did some caravans and cars 

off to Switzerland end of July ( not my choice ) so I expect it to be hot there so summers can go back on


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