# Fuel brands



## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

On another thread a poster, Tramp, has said "we also use high grade diesel fuel no supermarket MUCK , shell is best even the 98octane if its available"

Rather than hijack that thread I'll start another off. Is there any evidence to suggest there is any material difference between the fuel quality between brands and supermarkets.

[About 40 years ago I worked in a laboratory that tested fuel and oils for the Government. We would get a request to go to Avonmouth and collect a sample of say shell. When we got to the storage tank it might have Esso written on it, doesn't matter I was told that fuel is going out as Shell today. To be honest the results seem to bear it out flash point ash content etc often was identical brand to brand with testing dates close together but varied more widely over time between the same brand. Always well within contractural limits though. 40 years is a long time it could have all changed.]


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Fuel*

Hi

This is not evidence but here is my two penneth..

When we went to Italy in January, we were running on "Sainsbury's" diesel as far as Belgium.

I topped up there and all was just as before.

I filled up in Luxembourg and immediately upon driving off, the engine was quieter and the van seemed quicker. My friend with whom I was travelling noticed it too. The change was dramatic.

Since then, I have used diesel only from a petrol station rather than a supermarket, In all honesty though, JET is the same price as TEsco, Sainsbury etc etc

Rapide561


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

Where are the winter additives put into the fuel?
Is it at the storage depot before delivery to to supermarket or brand name filling station or is it at the point of delivery.
That would affect the fuel.

Locally we almost always fill up at Tesco.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

By an amazing coincedence I was conversing with another accountant the other day (absolutely gorgeous she is, but thats not important right now, but anything less than gorgeous and I would have fallen to sleep) 



Anyway she had just come from a fuel bunkering firm, they buy in bulk and pass the saving to commercial vehicle companies, they do not have their own network of outlets but rather use the big name forecourts to supply it (at the specialy reduced rate) and then they replace it from their bunkered supply. This seems to suggest that its still all the same fuel at different outlets.


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

autostratus said:


> Where are the winter additives put into the fuel?
> Is it at the storage depot before delivery to to supermarket or brand name filling station or is it at the point of delivery.
> That would affect the fuel.
> 
> Locally we almost always fill up at Tesco.


Hi Gillian

back at the end of last year we were discussing this and I wrote to several suppliers....this was the best reply (from Kevin Barnes at Chevron) and it includes an answer to your question......I copied the whole reply as I thought that anyone who had not seen it before may be interested in the dates that the additive is used. So at the moment my van is full of winter fuel from Tescos, my normal supply point :roll:

_Mike, many thanks for your enquiry which was passed on to me by our Customer Services group.

We manufacture automotive diesel fuel to meet European requirements known as EN590. This specification is adopted by British Standards and a group of fuel experts (of which I am a member) sit and agree what is known as the National Annex, I can only describe this part as… the fuel needed to work in say a Scottish winter is different to that required for Southern Spain… we have some freedom within EN590 to choose cold temperature performance and winter start dates suitable for our geographic location.

This is by way of explanation to your specific questions; the formulation ex refinery, winter vs summer quality does change, as we have to meet the tighter cold temperature (winter) performance requirement as defined in the National Annex in BSEN590.

Winter for road diesel quality is currently defined as operating from the 15th November through to the 15th March and product sold during this period has to meet a cold flow test, known as the CFPP test, at a maximum temperature of -15C, compare this with the summer specification of -5C.

The actual performance change is bought about by using different blend components at the refinery, together with the use of cold flow additives.

Hope this helps, _


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## Enodreven (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi, doesn't one of the major forecourts off 2 grades of Diesel ?? are these different ?


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Yes, BP Ultimate

http://www.bp.com/modularhome.do?categoryId=6620&contentId=7009602


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## tramp (May 25, 2005)

*fuel*

.hi all, 
I thought i'd wait till everybody had there 2 peneth before i chipped in.
There are 95oct and 98oct diesel, more bang for your buck as they say  
more bang equalls more power. I think shell have rolled out the 98oct as standard grade diesel by now at the same price, unlike bp who chage more for the increased octane rating.

A few of the supermrkets[sainsburys,Asda] bulk out their fuel with rapseed oil wich burns okay BUT blocks high pressure fuel injectors on diesels over a period of time  .
Our astra van used to smoke like the proverbial chimnye till we changed to main stream diesel [shell works the best] now no smoke so the proff is in the pudding 

In the diesel trade mags they are always going on about the inferior quality of supermarket fuel.
Think back to the old days when we had 4star fuel,then they removed the lead etc and cars engines blew up due to the lack of lubricants in the old fuel . so they had to add new lubricants,yes even diesel fuel has them to lubricate the diesel pumps . ask any VW/Audi mechanic about there new high pressure diesel engines. PS my dad's a mechanic.

Tramp :roll:


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

*Re: fuel*



tramp said:


> so they had to add new lubricants,yes even diesel fuel has them to lubricate the diesel pumps


Hi Tramp

This is because they removed the sulphur which used to lubricate pumps and injectors .. 
If you were to use gasoil (red/white diesel) you would find an increase in performance, albeit a bit more smokey, as it still contains the full amount of sulphur which raises the calorific value ..


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## tramp (May 25, 2005)

*fuel*

hi jim,
yes i once filled the tank on my lorry[£300] with red derve by mistake boy the boss was not a happy bunny  . good job the law didn't stop me, still it was night trunking so used the fuel in 2 days.

am thinking of trying the octane booster as used by the "subaru boys" to see if i get any extra umph :wink: still could always take out the kitchen sink etc :lol:

tramp


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## dethleff (Jun 25, 2005)

*Re: Fuel*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> This is not evidence but here is my two penneth..
> 
> ...


I have just returned from 2 months round France, Spain, and Portugal, and found the same thing that happend to Rapide561.

On many forecourts there were two diesel pumps, not being able to figure them out, I just used the nearest to hand. Over 3200 miles
sometimes the van went like the clappers (its only a 1.9td) other times it was in a right sulk.
Even my wife noticed the difference. After Rapides and Tramps post I'm beginning to think there might be something in this.
Stan


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## 97993 (Mar 5, 2006)

Following this thread with interest, as I partake in Motor Sport,
fuel octane is paramount to me , and during the phase out of 4 star we were forced to look for alternatives, and a lot of dyno work was carried out, and Shell at the time came out best,but it appeared that the results were not consistent and a letter was sent to Various petrol companys asking for their octane ratings. They were not very forthcoming with the information, 
the reason later became clear, after further checks. 
It appears that no petrol company anywhere guarantees to sell the fuel as listed on the signage as being their brand ie just because it says Shell on the sign that only means the site is Shell owned and operated, the fuel will have come from the nearest fuel bunker as George said earlier and will meet their minimum spec, They all have bunkerage agreements with each other,
In Nottingham there is a fuel storage Depot owned by Total and there drivers (my Uncle was one) delivered to 100s of east midland petrol stations regardless of name, including super markets and the fuel storage tanks were filled up by every petrol company you can think of so in fact you will find all filling stations close to a shell storage depot are in most likely to be selling shell 
It saves them running all over the country looking after their own
Geo


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*DERV!*

Hello All,

I used to work for Shell, I and a car mad colleague ran indentical petrol cars. My colleague used only Shell Fuel, I filled up wherever and whenever. However, after a year or so I noticed that her exhaust exit was pure white, mine was full of black sooty deposits.

Keep it Clean!

I think if you shop around you can buy branded fuel for the same price as Supermarkets, after all Garages near supermarkets do have to compete and some like a customer of mine still manage to stay in business.

On the other hand you won't get your Tesco 4 x points bonus for P&O or Eurotunnel.

Decisions decisions

Trev


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## artona (Jan 19, 2006)

Geo is absolutly right, if you go to a fuel depot you will see tankers of all names filling up. It makes sense if you think about it. Every towm must have a tescos, shell, sainsburys etc. If they all had their own depots there would be depots everywhere.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Tramp you seem to be in a minority have you any actual evidence for your view that they are different. Perhaps a reference to the Diesel mag article.

Regards Frank


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## jarcadia (May 1, 2005)

Hi All
To answers Sallytraffics original post (second bit); things have not changed, the company I work for still goes and pulls samples from various sites and tests them. Avonmouth terminal is still running and no doubt the same storage tanks are in use. Who did you work for in those days?

Brands are no indications of by whom or where the product was produced. Most ,if not all,of the majors have exchange deals where they swap product dependant on who has depots in that region. If there are problems in one refinery they will supplement their supply from another. That supplier may not even be UK based. 
Brian


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

jarcadia said:


> Hi All
> To answers Sallytraffics original post (second bit); things have not changed, the company I work for still goes and pulls samples from various sites and tests them. Avonmouth terminal is still running and no doubt the same storage tanks are in use. Who did you work for in those days?
> 
> Brands are no indications of by whom or where the product was produced. Most ,if not all,of the majors have exchange deals where they swap product dependant on who has depots in that region. If there are problems in one refinery they will supplement their supply from another. That supplier may not even be UK based.
> Brian


Hi I'm just having a senior moment ........ I think it was called Butler Chemicals or something similar but that could have been the name of one of the companies we dealt with. I was only with them 9 months or so. I'll have it on a cv if I look back far enough.

Our product range included 'Handclensa' a Swarfega like product and we recycled waste oil that was collected from garage sumps etc.

Regards Frank


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## 98530 (Apr 7, 2006)

The Rapeseed bulk out used by almost all oil producers should always be sold as Biodiesel, or by some such name indicating it as part bio.

If you are not that bothered about the spped you get you could always try extra filtered chip oil, makes for an interesting exhaust smell, and using a tank of pukka stuff with fuel tratment every fourth tank is I understand fairly essential, but it still represents a significant saving on fuel prices.

By the way what gives 30,000 gallons an inch and only moves a couple of feet????




Buncefield oil depot!


Credit for the above goes to Hertfordshire Fire and Rescue service, Blue watch St. Albans Station


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Cooking Oil*

Whilst listening to Jeremy Vines on BBC Radio 2 last week a caller rang and said he used Tescos value cooking oil at a rate of 75% to 25% regular diesel in his Peugeot 306.

I understood that you had to mix it with something like ethanol ?

Awaits the clever ones replies.

Trev


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## tramp (May 25, 2005)

*fuel*

hi all,
was reading the other day about the le-mans based Audi "5.4 diesel" apparently it uses specisl fuel developed by "shell" high octane special for high performance diesels, will be looking into this .

tramp

"I feel the need for speed"


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## tramp (May 25, 2005)

*fuel*

hi all,

What should be the biggest story of Le Mans next June, maybe one of the biggest racing stories ever, broke this week, not at the famous 24-Hours circuit but on a chilly morning in the centre of Paris.

With the Eiffel Tower as a backdrop, seven-time Le Mans winner Tom Kristensen briefly fired up the car he will drive in 2006, and ended months of speculation.

Audi's all-new R10 looks like an evolution of the R8 - a multiple Le Mans winner. But it is actually a revolution. The R10 is powered by diesel, and Audi intends it to be the first diesel car to win Le Mans outright - preferably at the first try, in six months' time.

It is not a diesel as you might think of one. Where previous diesel racers have largely run adapted production engines, the R10 is new from the ground up, and its all-alloy 5.5-litre bi-turbo TDi V12 is a thoroughbred racing engine that Audi says provides its greatest motorsport challenge to date.

It is massively powerful (more so even than the all-conquering R8), with a power output exceeding 650bhp and more than 811lb ft of torque. And Audi claims it is fuel-efficient enough to run maybe two long Le Mans laps per tankful farther than the already frugal R8 with its direct-injection FSI petrol technology.

Unsurprisingly, Audi expects it to be extremely quick, especially in a straight line, and very reliable, as the R8 was (in six years, it never suffered an engine failure during a race). With particulate filters and Bosch direct injection with piezo-electric control, it is also environmentally clean - and Kristensen says that for a racing engine it is quiet and very smooth.

Having the most powerful diesel engine in the world for its size required many things, from wider, grippier Michelin tyres to *special synthetic Shell diesel fuel*, as well as a massively strong transmission.

But Audi is quietly confident. Dr Martin Winterkorn, the chairman, says: "We've never shied away from big challenges, and if we weren't convinced about the great potential of the V12 TDi, and diesel in general, we would never have taken this step." Dr Wolfgang Ullrich, the head of Audi Motor Sport, confirmed: "Yes, we're preparing the car to win in 2006."

In a six-year career that made it arguably the most successful racing sports car ever built, the R8 won 61 victories from 77 starts. If the R10 adds just one more at Le Mans in June, it will guarantee its own place as a spectacular successor.
Audi [UK] Motorsport

Le Mans [official site]

tramp


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## JohnDough (Mar 3, 2006)

I was passing a Tesco outlet in Ireland recently and lo and behold they were filling the tanks from a statoil tanker and there fuel is is 6cent dearer per litre!!!!!! 

A former tanker driver told me they fill up from the nearest storage tank irrespective of brand which would conform some of the earlier comments.  

It is like Philips Tvs with samsung parts in them you do not REALLY know what you are buying.


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