# VIN plate and Tax Disc discrepancy



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

PLEASE ONLY REPLY TO THIS POST IF YOU ACTUALLY KNOW THE RELEVANT LAW - AND CAN QUOTE IT

N.B These situations do not concern any Police, VOSA or DVLA enquiry or allegation. They are merely put up to clarify my mind.



FIRST SCENARIO

When I first bought my vehicle it had the following:-

V5C: Private HGV, revenue Weight 3850 K G GROSS 

Tan Disc: Private HGV and appropriate £ amount for then

VIN Plate: MPLM 3500 kg

FIRST QUESTION :- was there an offence at that time and if so what offence?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SECOND SCENARIO

V5C is changed to 'Campervan' i.e. under 3500kg

Tax Disc:- Campervan and appropriate rate is paid which is more than PHGV

VIN Plate is subsequently changed to show MPLM of 3850kg

SECOND QUESTION;- Is any offence committed? (bearing in mind that the Vehicle Tax paid for the Motorcaravan exceeds the amount due for a PHGV)

I can think of just a few MHF Members who might be able to respond fully and I would be grateful

Geoff


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Discrepancies*

Hi

I had discrepances with my log book/tax disc and no one "in authority" suggested I was commiting any offence as it was not my doing. I did however spend a great deal of time sorting it out as I am very "belt and braces" where paper work is concerned.

This was my tale of woe

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-42148.html&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=leeds&start=30

Russell


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

nicholsong said:


> PLEASE ONLY REPLY TO THIS POST IF YOU ACTUALLY KNOW THE RELEVANT LAW - AND CAN QUOTE IT


*OK SARGE. I'M STANDING TO ATTENTION AND WILL TRY TO RECITE THE LEGISLATION, SARGE. :lol: *

No need to shout, old chap - we'll help you even when you talk in a normal voice. 

*FIRST SCENARIO*
_When I first bought my vehicle it had the following:-
V5C: Private HGV, revenue Weight 3850 K G GROSS 
Tan Disc: Private HGV and appropriate £ amount for then
VIN Plate: MPLM 3500 kg
FIRST QUESTION :- was there an offence at that time and if so what offence?_

No. There was an error.

*SECOND SCENARIO*
_V5C is changed to 'Campervan' i.e. under 3500kg
Tax Disc:- Campervan and appropriate rate is paid which is more than PHGV
VIN Plate is subsequently changed to show MPLM of 3850kg
SECOND QUESTION;- Is any offence committed? (bearing in mind that the Vehicle Tax paid for the Motorcaravan exceeds the amount due for a PHGV)_

a) Please check that the V5 body type actually says "Campervan" and not "Motor Caravan". I think you'll find it's the latter, although the body type bears no relevance to the main issue you're asking about (the taxation class).
b) Why was the VIN plate changed, and by whom.
c) What is the weight shown in the V5. I won't be "under 3500 kg" - no such weight.
d) There is also no such taxation class as "campervan" - please can you clarify those points.

Dougie.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Hello Dougie 

Sorry if Capitals were taken as SHOUTING, I still write as if it were on paper, therefore emphasis, paragraph headings in capitals, but also I hope with correct spelling and punctuation.

You are quite right in your queries a) and d) I should have said 'Motor Caravan'

Re b) assume the MH converter issues a new VIN Plate with revised weights to 3850kg as per there factory spec (3500kg was probably for the post 1997 Drivers Licence market)

Re c) ignore my 3500kg - I know it will not appear on the Tax Disc, but I just put it in, possibly superfluously, for clarification - obviously failed.

Anyway glad you are on the case.

Thanks Geoff


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## fdhadi (May 9, 2005)

Just changed ours from PLG to PHG. In our case it was easy to do because it had been registered as 5000kg but taxed as a PLG. Just went to DVLA at Preston and had it changed in a few minutes to PHG and cheaper tax.

Result


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## wiggyboo (Jun 21, 2010)

Oh man ... 

Ok help ... we have exactly the same ... VIN Plate says 3500KG, V5C says 3850KG ... it's brand new and so the Tax disc was on it when we got it ... 

What does this actually mean ... should the VIN and V5C match? 

I'd appreciate any help with this ... we are working to the 3500KG in terms of the van weight so that we don't get caught in France but if the documents are wrong could we get done for being over 3.5T in a village ... 

Thank you all ...


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

nicholsong said:


> Sorry if Capitals were taken as SHOUTING


Don't worry about it. It felt like Dad's Army, which made me laugh. 



nicholsong said:


> Re b) assume the MH converter issues a new VIN Plate with revised weights to 3850kg as per there factory spec (3500kg was probably for the post 1997 Drivers Licence market)


Then the V5 should reflect that. You've said to ignore c), but whilst you've explained why the VIN weight has gone up, you've not explained why the V5 weight has gone down. That's quite confusing, and also quite unlikely unless someone has wrongly changed the V5 which should have been left as it was, given that the vehicle has been uprated.

So to now answer your _SECOND QUESTION_ [sic] , there is no offence, but there are another two errors (the V5 & the taxation class) which should be corrected by completing the relevant box and taking it to a DVLA office to reinstate the PHGV taxation class and have the V5 corrected. You should also take a photo of the VIN plate as evidence of the vehicle's uprated weight.



wiggyboo said:


> we have exactly the same ... VIN Plate says 3500KG, V5C says 3850KG ... it's brand new and so the Tax disc was on it when we got it ... What does this actually mean ... should the VIN and V5C match?


Yes.



wiggyboo said:


> we are working to the 3500KG in terms of the van weight so that we don't get caught in France


What do you mean "caught in France"? 8O



wiggyboo said:


> if the documents are wrong could we get done for being over 3.5T in a village ...


Not really the question to ask. Why don't you want to rectify the error? If your driving licence entitles you to drive a vehicle >3.5t, you have the option to uprate your van to 3850kg (assuming that's technically possible with your van) and have the taxation class changed to Private HGV (PHGV) which is a flat rate of £165. Or if you don't have that entitlement, you can simply have your V5 weight changed to 3500kg at a DVLA office. You don't say what your taxation class is, but if it's PHGV, you would have to have that changed to PLG in this latter case.

Dougie.


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Some observations: -

If you buy a 'new' van (you are first registered keeper) and the VIN plates/V5/tax disc don't match, tell the dealer to sort it out to the specification that you ordered!

There may be more than 1 VIN plate - motorhomes are 'multi-stage build' vehicles. The relevant VIN plate is the one attached by the final builder in the chain (ie the motorhome builder usually). Check with the moho manufacturer, using the chassis number or build number to confirm the GVW for the vehicle.

If you wish to use a vehicle in places where there is a 3.5tonne restriction, have the vehicle replated to 3500kg and pay for the PLG road tax - have DVLA amend the V5. Same goes for licence restrictions.

Bear in mind that if you replate to a lower weight, payload will be reduced by a corresponding amount, unless you remove fixed items from the vehicle to compensate.

My van is 4000kg GVW, but is available in a 3500kg version. 

However the lighter version has a smaller engine, wheels, tyre, brakes, suspension, which all weigh less. If I replate to 3500kg, I will consequently not have the same kerbweight as a 3500kg version and thus will have a lower payload.

HTH

David

ps with all the toys on my van, I'm over 3500kg unladen but with full fuel and water tanks!


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

b16duv said:


> There may be more than 1 VIN plate


Not so. It's the vehicle manufacturer's plating which is required, and it will be attached in at least two different places on the vehicle (usually under the bonnet, and/or in a corner of the front windscreen, and/or under a flap on the door sill). To say that there may be more than one VIN plate in the sense that there may be different technical information displayed on the same _vehicle_ (I don't mean the motorhome body) is not correct.

Dougie.


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

asprn said:


> b16duv said:
> 
> 
> > There may be more than 1 VIN plate
> ...


I'd better go and remove one then :lol:

David


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

b16duv said:


> I'd better go and remove one then :lol:


Possibly. :lol: Speshully wiv the Fifeshire boyz in blue....


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I would not remove one. The manufacturer plates the van before it leaves the factory. The converter may alter the weights and put a new plate on, or if a company such as SV Tech is used to replate they will provide another plate which is stuck on near the original and not in place of it. 

My current van and the two before were up rated for me by SV Tech and each had a new plate stuck beside the original. The information on the new plate supercedes the original, Alan.


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Thanks, Alan - I was only kidding about removing one! There is the original Fiat one under the bonnet, and the Niesmann Bischoff one inside the habitation door. There may also be an Alko one somewhere, but I haven't looked. 

David


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## sideways (Jun 2, 2008)

Thats correct if the vehicles grosses more than the original manufacturors vin plate shows you will also have a convertors plate showing additional information, sometimes, not always, the original gross weight will be xxxxx out.


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Dougie,

I have found a quote from HERE]Here[/url]

The vehicle identification number (VIN)

Is on vehicles first used on or after 1 August 1980. Not more than one different VIN is displayed except on multistage build vehicles.

David


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Coolio - thanks Dave.

Dougie.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

asprn said:


> To say that there may be more than one VIN plate in the sense that there may be different technical information displayed on the same _vehicle_ (I don't mean the motorhome body) is not correct.
> 
> Dougie.


Dougie, could you elaborate on that please? On my bonnet strike plate is the Fiat VIN plate with the MGW, the front & rear axle weights and the Train Weight.

Next to it is the Trigano plate, {Identified as Plate No 2}, which has the same information with a reduced Train Weight from the Fiat plate.

Ray


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

rayc said:


> Dougie, could you elaborate on that please?


I do accept that multistage vehicles can have them, and that the most recent applies.

Dougie.


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

asprn said:


> Coolio - thanks Dave.
> 
> Dougie.


I hope you won't have too many 'tickets' to rescind! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Aren't C&U regs a nightmare?!

David


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

b16duv said:


> I hope you won't have too many 'tickets' to rescind! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Oh no.  I never gave one out for that obscure stuff, and I never knew anyone who did.

Dougie.


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Paperwork*

Hi

Just to recap, my advice to anyone who has a "discrepancy" is to sort it out. I am a believer that the paperwork should be all ok and above board.

Russell


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: Paperwork*



Rapide561 said:


> Just to recap, my advice to anyone who has a "discrepancy" is to sort it out. I am a believer that the paperwork should be all ok and above board


I don't think anyone will disagree with you, Russell. The difficulty usually is in understanding that there are often different options, and then which one best suits your own circumstances.

Dougie.


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Tax disc*

and of course Dougie, it is a long drawn out proceedure to get the paperwork sorted! LOL

Russell


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## wiggyboo (Jun 21, 2010)

I think we are going back to the dealer as it is brand new ... they have so far been rubbish! The van is described in the brochure at the 3850kg (and we are both able to drive at that weight on our licences) and that is what we expected ... I actually haven't checked the Tax Disc (as I forgot today!) but I will now.

We were not even shown the VIN when we left the dealership and the man who did the handover could not even tell us where it was ... we then found the VIN and were surprised when it as the lower weight ... 

Thank you all so much, this has helped shed light on a very confusing matter and we at least now know where to start!

AJ


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## JackieP (Oct 15, 2006)

We've got the same issue and it was only due to this thread that I found out. :/

We've got a German van that was first registered in 1984, imported to UK in 2006 and imported by us to IoM in the same year.

The UK reg. documents state that the vehicle's gross weight is 3500 and that's the figure that was transported onto our Manx log book.

We've driven the van all over the place believing it to be 3500 We had it weighed last week (for the first time to my eternal shame) to see that it came in at 3100. We were delighted as that was fairly fully loaded with full grey tank, full water and half fuel.

It was only once it was weighed that I went looking on t'internet (was too scared before - again to my shame) and found that the actual weight is given on the VIN plate. We had no idea such a plate existed but found it under the bonnet at the back of the engine. It was pretty corroded but we could see quite clearly that it stated max weight was 3200.

So, we have a discrepancy. I've dug out the original German documents and they too state that it's 3200.

We have the option to up-rating the van through Svtec to 3500 but it's going to cost £240+Vat.

The back max weight is 2030 and the weighbridge said we are 1840

The front max weight is 1500 and the weighbridge said we are 1260

I'm guessing the weight on the VIN plate is the one we really need to go by and if we want it up-rating we'd need to pay the £240+vat?

Hope someone can help.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

JackieP said:


> We've got the same issue and it was only due to this thread that I found out. :/
> 
> We've got a German van that was first registered in 1984, imported to UK in 2006 and imported by us to IoM in the same year.
> 
> ...


Modified after welcome advise from Dougie that the first part of my post could lead to serious legal problems for anybody doing it:

*DO NOT DO THIS *
"Not that I would do such a thing but as the UK and subsequent Manx log books say 3,500kg, and the sum of the axle loads is above that , the plate could be persuaded to corrode quickly so that the 3200kg is no longer discernable but could be mistaken for 3500kg.
Presumably there is no technical reason as I assume that SVtech are not insisting on any modifications to upgrade to 3500kg".

[I decided to keep this in as otherwise Dougie's very sensible advise would have appeared non sensical].

*WHAT I ADVISE *
Obviously if you go along the route of SVtech upgrade all your problems are solved at a fairly 'minor' cost for peace of mind and the warm glow of doing the right thing..


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

rayc said:


> Not that I would do such a thing but as the UK and subsequent Manx log books say 3,500kg, and the sum of the axle loads is above that , the plate could be persuaded to corrode quickly so that the 3200kg is no longer discernable but could be mistaken for 3500kg.


Honestly Ray - I'm not being sanctimonious, but I really think you shouldn't give advice out like that. It's just not a clever solution, and could easily lead to something far more serious than Road Traffic offences.

Dougie.


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

It seems to be quite common, the V5 and VIN plates not matching..

There is a test in the CC magazine this month of, I think, an Autosleeper, where it is stated the GVW is 4000kg. The tester then goes on to say that if you choose the bigger engine, it's an extra £20 RFL, at £210 - that suggests a PLG rate and not PHG if the van is correctly documented at 4000kg!

David


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

asprn said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > Not that I would do such a thing but as the UK and subsequent Manx log books say 3,500kg, and the sum of the axle loads is above that , the plate could be persuaded to corrode quickly so that the 3200kg is no longer discernable but could be mistaken for 3500kg.
> ...


Dougie, Thanks for your sensible advise. I have edited my original post. Best regards, Ray


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## JackieP (Oct 15, 2006)

Thanks for your replies. 

I think, on balance, we will up-rate through Svtec. It will be money well spent for the peace of mind. And Rayc's point about 'doing the right thing' hit home as well.

I've felt quite ashamed about my 'head in the sand approach' to payload. But it has come at a price. There was hardly a day went by when I didn't think 'payload' and feel an overwhelming sense of doom. I've felt like that for three years and now it's been such a waste of energy.

If there are any more as daft as me, then I urge you to get your sensible head on and get your van weighed. It might not be as bad as you think, and even if it is - it's sortable. If you get it weighed at least wou know what you're working with. 'Guessing' and fretting does you no good at all.

I so wish I'd done it earlier but feel so much better now i know I'm doing something about it. 

Thanks again.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

JackieP said:


> I so wish I'd done it earlier but feel so much better now i know I'm doing something about it


Jackie,

That's probably the most reflective post I've read on this forum in respect of "ordinary" motorhome issues, and certainly one of the most honest. It shows exactly how peace of mind always triumphs over not facing up to stuff.

From me, respect.

Dougie.


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

JackieP said:


> If there are any more as daft as me, then I urge you to get your sensible head on and get your van weighed. It might not be as bad as you think, and even if it is - it's sortable. If you get it weighed at least wou know what you're working with. 'Guessing' and fretting does you no good at all.


Absolutely, Jackie. I was like this for two and a half years, until I eventually got my backside into gear, found a local weighbridge, and did the deed. My experiences are :: here ::

The postscript to the thread is that we loaded up ready for Germany, but after calculations, I only third-filled the fresh water tank. We dropped into the weightbridge on the way down to Folkestone, and we came in at 3480kg - 20kg underweight (I'd been a bit over-cautious on the water filling).

Gerald


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

JackieP

RE cost of re-plating, my Arto was built for 3850kg, but plated at 3500kg.

I got new plate from manufacturer for free, but I think I read on another thread that Hymer charge but I believe the cost was more like £50-70.

It is worth asking.

Geoff


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## JackieP (Oct 15, 2006)

Thanks for that. I'll drop Bad Walsee an email. You never know. 

Thanks too to Aspern and Gerald. That was a lovely thing you said Aspern and I appreciate it very much.


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## JackieP (Oct 15, 2006)

Update....

Have contacted Hymer and they are going to do it for £130. A bit more than £70 but a lot less than £240+Vat.

Thanks again nicholsong


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I am not sure when the Poster had his done.

£130 sounds a bit steep when I got mine from N+B (owned by Hymer) for free, but then the N+B factory at Polch seems to have a very good reputation for after-sales service.

Anyway even at that price you will save something.

Geoff


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