# Help - 28 foot RV too heavy ??



## 98022

Hi all,

First off just to say, what a great website - so informative. I genuinely wouldnt know where to start with queries, worries etc had it not been for the forum.

Anyway maybe some of you can help me shed some light on a worry i have regarding an RV that I am very close to buying.

I'm in the process of purchasing a 1994 Gulfstream Sun Voyager with a 6.5 turbo diesel pusher engine. The vehicle looks great, everything works, etc, etc but when I checked the weight to make sure it was ok for me to drive on my car license I found out that the GVWR is 18,000 lbs. From my understanding the limit for my type of license is 16,500 lbs correct ?

The owner has had it for 3 years and has driven all this time on his car license and swears that it's under the limit. When I pointed out my new found knowledge from reading this forum regarding the weight being over the limit he stated that the GVWR is the weight limit the chassis can handle and includes the towing capacity etc and is not the actual weight of the RV. He also said that he'd put it on a weigh bridge when he first bought it to check the weight himself and it came in under 16,500 lbs. 

So what to do ? do I run away from this RV ? or do I buy it with the hope that I might not get checked or that if I do get pulled over the police would take the time to put the RV on a weigh bridge and not just go by the 18,000lb figure stated on the RV. 

Lastly the RV is only a 28 footer with no slides, etc so I am more than suprised by its stated GVWR.

Any help much appreciated.


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## olley

Hi rvstevo you are correct GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) is the max. that vehicle can weigh when loaded, and is the figure the DVLA use when deciding on the type of licence needed to drive it.

7.5 imperial tons =16,800 lbs or is it done on 16,500 pounds?

Olley


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## Rapide561

*Weight*

Hi

Is the 18000 pounds the weight when it is absolutely full of people, pots, pans, dogs, water, etc etc

What does it weigh empty?

That is my starting thought but there are others on here who will advise you better!

Rapide561


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## olley

Just had a look on the dvla site they state Tonnes which normally refers to metric tonnes so its 16500lbs.

Olley


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## 98022

hmmm I dont know what to do now...I still cant believe a 28 foot rv with no slides etc can be over the limit.

Because it's a relatively small RV I'm inclined to still buy it and take my chances.

Anyone else got a Gulfstream Sun Voyager Diesel ?


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## Scotjimland

George, our resident expert, will be along shortly with the full details of license requirements for RVs .. they are NOT HGVs

Mine is a 36 ft diesel pusher GVW 8618kg / 19,000 US lbs

no slides.


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## sailor

This subject has been the source of much - sometimes conflicting - info on this site.

In current terms a group C licence is needed if the weight is over 7500kg, which I reckon is 16500lbs. This does not include a trailor.

A C1 licence is needed between 3500kg and 7500kg.

A B licence is up to 3500kg.

All weights are Max Authorised Mass, ie laden - your gross vehicle weight.

If you passed your test after 1997 you will only have group B, if you passed your test before then you will have C1 as well. - but not C.

Either way the gross weight is more than 7500 so I reckon its dodgy on a car licence. But others may take a different view.


I personally would not risk it, if there are licencing doubts you could be uninsured.

Regards

JeffO


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## pepe

*rv too heavy*

Hi from what i have heard most pushers are overweight. but not come accross small pusher under 30ft Regards Pepe


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## 88724

There as been one case ever driver driving a huge RV well over 7.5 Tonnes in fast lane, admitted driving on normal licence, camera evidence, Plod evidence and written "confession"

Went to court 3 times, then CPS (crown prosecution service) dropped the case through lack of evidence.

I have spoken to CPS the case is now "not on easily accessable file" but you can get access still, that was last time I rang. Ring the Wolverhampton CPS if you want to query any of this.

First time I discussed with them I asked why was it dropped "due to lack of evidence" when they admit to still having the written statement, camera evidence and Plods evidence I was told all they could say was lack of evidence, I also asked under what legislation he was being done and they could not say, they refered me to DVLA.

DVLA Have never been able to indicate under what legislation they base their opinion on (look at any literature they send you or on line its says its their opinion) for vehicle classification they say contact Marsham, marsham are very clear a Motorhome is not an HGV of any kind of GV

All other relevant gov depts insist that a motorhome is NOT a GV

Follow the legislation back and it refers to GV (its a term that the DVLA are trying to avoid but in the legislation its clear weight is refering to GV)

Spoke to police they operate a call in centre so that patrol cars can check law, spoke to a person who looked all the relevant data up from sweets etc and his/her opinion based on what he/she could find is that motorhomes are not weight restricted (of course they must be OK with construction and use with relevant axles per weight etc) at the end of the converstionshe said he/she would send me photocopies and notes of the call.

Eventually a DVLA leaflet arrived, I rang and he/she was most embarrassed but the head of the dept had made her/him send the leaflet instead, as far as he/she was concerned though anyone would be waved on (off the record)

Look at it this way, how many RV's have been imported since the 60's? we have one attempted prosecution in 45 Yrs. No-one as ever had their insurance refused because of wrong licence.

Several people have had to take docs in on producers and never as there been a problem.

I think the really telling thing is that DVLA legal dept cannot show the relevant legislation, surely if it was there they should know?

There are a few threads here somewhere.

Having said all of the above, would it be a good idea to train and get _relevant_ licence regardless of whethor its needed legally?, I think it probably would. They are big and its a little different driving them.

If you ask DVLA ask them for the law that backs their opinion.


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## 97022

Hi RVsteveo

As someone said earlier on you will get conflicting answers on this one!

When I was looking for an american RV some years back I loved the Gulfstream Voyager but in the end I went for a Damon Daybreak at under 7500kg even though I used to have a Class 1 HGV licence and have driven most vehicles up to 44 tonnes in the past. The main reason was that the DVLA guidance on licensing SPECIFICALLY states that ALL vehicles over 7500kg require a C1 licence to drive and also specifically includes motorhomes.

I know that some contributers often make the point that the DVLA do not make the law only interpret it but I would still have several reservations. Firstly, the police are more likely to refer to the DVLA guidance when making a decision on whether to prosecute and secondly, if expert opinion were called for in court again the DVLA are a likely source for such opinion.

It is not necessarily the case that you will be simply pulled over by the police and checked thoroughly but it could be that your vehicle is involved in a serious road accident and maybe even not of your making. The resulting investigations by the police accident investigation unit will, I assure you, be very comprehensive indeed and will include not only a thorough mechanical check but reference to the weight of the vehicle and your licence. Should this occur and your insurance company feel you were at fault for driving a vehicle you were not licenced to drive I wouldn't be surprised if they refused to pay out. In any case, I would check that your insurance company will insure you for the vehicle and get it in writing if they agree.

Another thought is that again, it isn't always the case that the police will pull you up believing that you are driving a vehicle you are not licenced to drive but there are often occasions when spot checks on caravans or motorhomes are carried out and these usually include weight checks on gross vehicle weight and axle weight loading. They will cross check the actual weights against the plated weight and your licence.

Last thought - some people are naturally gifted when it comes to driving and even driving/manoeuvering large vehicles but the additional tests to drive large vehicles (whatever category they are in) were instituted for a very good reason and it would be wrong (IMHO) to advise anyone to disregard the licencing system and get round it in whatever way. For me, there are plenty of RV's under 7500kg to not take the chance.

Regards, david


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## 88724

Hi David

In 45 years there as not been a single prosecution. The DVLA do not make the law or even interpret it. Even the CPS could not find a law with which to prosecute, ring and ask them.

With regard to police they "ring through" to the dept I spoke to and then its refered to CPS for a decision.

In 2001 first and only ever attempted prosecution dropped due to lack of evidence (even though all evidence was available, still is BTW)

No RV'er as ever had insurance revocked in accident, check the RV Mags it would be big news and its never happened (think about it from what I can gather RV's have been imported since 1961 (thats the earliest I can find)) and in all that time do you think no-one as had an accident?

There was a case that bankrupted a man who tried to get a refund on an ilegal oversized RV and failed because the court (judge) said it was known about but turned a blind eye too.

Without a law they cannot prosecute and unfortunately they cannot find a law (they certainly cant just use DVLA opinion)

DVLA Guidance as you say is very specific, but read the small print its not law

In court opinion will not count, they need a specific law on which to prosecute.


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## 88927

Very good advice David.
I personally find it very hard to believe that a 28ft RV could be rated at 18000lbs but then if that is what it says then that is the MAM and you are stuck with it.
Is it possible to derate an RV down to 16500lbs, I have read about european MH's having their chassis weight rating altered so I guess it must be possible, especially as you would be lowering the MAM not increasing it? If this RV is the one you really, really want, then I would check about derating, I am sure someone can advise on that subject.
Otherwise my advice would be to take Davids advice and leave it alone...

Hope this helps

Keith


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## 88724

Hi BTW

Although I do not think that they would have aleg to stand on, I really agree with David and Keith, dont like DVLA on the principle that I dislike the deciept


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## zaskar

RVsteveo said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm in the process of purchasing a 1994 Gulfstream Sun Voyager with a 6.5 turbo diesel pusher engine.
> 
> Whats the chassis? It can make a difference because the Spartan and Mountain Master chassis are much heavier than the Chevy p30. Usually these chassis are only used for pushers where-as the lighter Chevy p30 was used for pullers
> I had a '95 Gulfstream Sunsport 6.5 td 32ft Chevy p30 chassis (puller) with no slides and this was WELL under 16,500.


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## 97022

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi BTW
> 
> Although I do not think that they would have aleg to stand on, I really agree with David and Keith, dont like DVLA on the principle that I dislike the deciept


I think I feel the same George - there was a piece on TV recently about a solicitor who made a very good living out of getting 'celebrities' off speeding charges by citing 'technical' flaws in the law - mainly the fact that the road signage didn't comply with the regulations in some small way - even though the accused knew full well, and admitted, they were well over the speed limit.

My wife says it should help to buck up the sloppy methods of those who are supposed to ensure these things are correct and I agree but I also think I wouldn't be happy if one of these 'celebrities' hit me, my wife or our motorhome at over 100mph!!!

The law makers who do not address these anomalies are, at best, very frustrating to those of us who want to abide by the law and, at worst, as dangerous to us as those who flaunt it.

May peace and harmony reign on our highways. Regards, david


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## BERTHA

What is the restriction of the use of the 3rd lane of a Motorway.

I have witnessed a number of HGV Lorries, clearly with their speed restricters turned off racing down the outside lane of a motorway.

Last night I was doing 70 in the middle lane when I was over taken by one of those 6 wheel lorries that carry dirt from building sites with the crane built on just behind the cab.

I am sure he is more than 7.5 tonne 

Or have I got my facts wrong on who and who cannot use the 3rd lane

I know when I am in our 5000kg MH I never use the outside lane, even if i could I would not, the outside lane for anything more than a Transit van should be banned

H


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## Scotjimland

Highway Code 239: 
The right-hand lane of a motorway with three or more lanes MUST NOT be used (except in prescribed circumstances) if you are driving

any vehicle drawing a trailer
a goods vehicle with a maximum laden weight over 7.5 tonnes
a passenger vehicle with a maximum laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver.
Laws MT(E&W)R reg 12 & MT(S)R reg 11


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## 88724

By the way, I had some fun with VOSA again the other day

DVLA said that garage or storage meant that a motorhome was a goods vehicle, ring VOSA.

VOSA say only if it carries goods (as per the ancient description of GOODS VEHICLE) I mentioned garages and this is where it gets crazy.

If you carry push bikes in a large garage no problem, put motorcross bikes in the same space and it becomes a GV I said what about the hire or reward bit and the answer possible prize money....... 

So if you go match fishing in a Motorhome over 7.5 Tonnes, specimin fishing ok, but if you get caught carrying anything that could make money it will suddenly require plating and a Tacho, Dog shows etc etc, Chess tournements well you dont carry equipment so they are OK

So to summerise it could be HGV if you carry fishing tackle to Match fishing, take same gear to specimin fishing and you are OK, in one case you require Tacho, Speed limiter and Plating instead of MOT and cannot travel in third lane, in the other MOT and travel in third lane at 70 MPH
Lets not get into the licensing.


Like Catch 22 except this isnt a novel its real life


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## DABurleigh

You are awful; but I like you.


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## BERTHA

SO what I witnessed was an Illegal d*ckhead putting the rest of us in danager

Thanks Jim for the evidence

H


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## Goodyear

*RV licensing*

Everyone seems to be concerned with the license, i would be worrying more about the insurance using it as loophole to get out of paying.
Just think what damage a runaway RV can do and could you live with yourself after, not to mention the financial ramifications.

GOOD LUCK with your choice.


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## des

Hi all. Like several other contributors to this forum, I have gone into this thoroughly, as I have a Damon with a MAM of 18,000 lbs, which is 8.25 metric tonnes. In order to achieve legal driving on car licence, vehicle can be re-plated at 7.5 tonnes. this means losing 1500 pounds of payload. which is a lot of wine! also, possibly means that vehicle is overweight as soon as you drive out of the dealer's yard. My insurance company Safeguard is quite specific re class C licence if over 7.5 tonnes, and say they will not pay out claims if driver is not correctly licenced. Finally, I did an LGV course, took me 3 goes, cost about £1500 because of re-take costs. However, frightening to think that anyone can drive a vehicle of this size and weight without any kind of training! The approach to junctions has to be totally different. None of this screaming up at top speed, GTI style PLEASE. Otherwise, disaster looming. I would rather pay out for training than suffer the consequences of a major accident!


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## des

sorry - duplicate post now erased - can someone tell me how to erase the entire post


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## 88724

Hi Goodyear

The insurance companies have never refused to pay out on an American due to licence not being HGV. With all the debate that as raged for years in the RV mags somebody would have put forth a story about it if it had happened.

If the CPS cannot find a law to prosecute a driver the insurance company cannot simply refuse to pay out on a whim

I agree it would be sensible to get training and an upgraded licence, all I say is that the LAW doesnt actually require it.

I have never been asked by an insurance company to state that I have the "correct" licence.

According to Construction and use a motorhome is NOT weight restricted.

Anyone with a pre 97 licence can drive a 25 tonne minibus quite legally because C&U say it is NOT weight restricted.

Des, does your Motorhome have a Tachograph and speed limiter fitted? it should if you need a special licence to drive it, because motorhomes are not on the list of exempted vehicles.

The CPS, DVLA, Police legal Dept, VOSA, Ministry of trasnsport, Construction and use, and all the legislation that I have read, in not one instance have any come up with any credible evidence to refute what I say, in fact many of the above seem to agree.


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## des

George - No tachygraph or speed limiter -not required as taxed as private heavy goods. The truck I was trained on was also classed as private heavy goods, and did not require the tachy. Although one was fitted, but never used. It did, however, have a speed limiter. All this confirms what you have said - all very confused, and nobody is likely to be prosecuted. Not so sure about the insurance, however, as Safeguard were VERY specific about this. Just to add to my confusion, have inspected my reg. cert. and seen it has been registered at 7.5 tonnes, although the plate says 18000 pounds! Oops! Des.


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## 97022

Des 

I do think yours is the sensible, responsible approach to this issue.

George has some very valid points but there are many situations when other people will put you at serious risk. For instance, when was the last time you test drove any vehicle and were asked if you even had a licence? I have never been asked but if anything had gone wrong it would not have been the salesman in court. 

David


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## des

David

I do so admire people who agree with me! 

Des


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## 88724

Hi Des

Please show the exemption for PHGV from having A tachograph and speed limiter, even VOSA have admitted that it isnt an exempted vehicle.

Unfortunately you cant have it both ways, its either HGV and you need a licence because its over 7.5 Tonnes or its exempt. If you say it needs a licence then the other laws comwe into play and you then need a speed limiter and Tachograph as a motorhome is NOT exempted from these the list of exemptions is quite clear.

PHGV is for revenue purposes only and does not relate to a legal vehicle definition for licencing purposes.


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## des

Hi George. Are you telling me / us that all motorhomes over 7.5 tonnes need a tachygraph and a speed limiter? 
If so, please explain how type approval obtained?
Also, I refer to my comments re driving school & tachy never used because not required as taxed as private heavy goods. If illegal, how come repeatedly re-plated? And accepted by DSA for driving tests? speed limiter fitted, so all this leaves me very confused.


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## 88724

Hi Des

*Are you telling me / us that all motorhomes over 7.5 tonnes need a tachygraph and a speed limiter? If so, please explain how type approval obtained?*

No I have been telling everyone the opposite all along, because motorhomes are not weight restricted and they are NOT HGV

Yes because VOSA do not count the vehicle as an HGV, If its a living van they insist on those fittings as it then becomes an HGV BTW the exact same motorhome can become a living van, the Devil is in the details.
Forget Road Tax that is for revenue purposes only

This brings us back full circle because an HGV is clearly defined in law with weights and licencing requirements.

*Also, I refer to my comments re driving school & tachy never used because not required as taxed as private heavy goods. If illegal, how come repeatedly re-plated? And accepted by DSA for driving tests? speed limiter fitted *

Remember I have already said that certain vehicles are exempted from using Tach they are listed. Replated because its heavy goods vehicle with tacho in place (it still as to be sealed and certified if I remember rightly, its not important to this discussion though)

*so all this leaves me very confused.*

I never said that its was easy to follow


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## des

Hi George. I have finally understood what you are saying! You are most likely right. For all those driving large motorhomes on car licences, I certainly hope so! 

Of course, what insurance companies do is another matter. Just because they "have" to pay out, doesn't necessarily mean they will without litigation. I would not like to try this, bearing in mind the muddiness of the waters. The weight of paper accumulated would probably exceed 7.5 tonnes! Then the clerk would need a class C to wheel the paper trolley to court!

Judging from the number of threads on various forums on this topic, this is a serious matter for many RV owners. It is a shame you are not a judge laying down a definitive ruling. Then we would all know where we stand.

Des


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## 88724

Hi Des

On the insurance thing, its my guess that the market is good for them and they do not want to rock the boat. In 45 years they do not seem to have tried to get out of paying due to licence, it would be one of the first things put forwardin the mags and online if it had happened.

Would be best allround if they sorted it out worst case for them is give grandfather rightslike thye did in 97


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## DABurleigh

Des,

Well having this morning read the entirety of the transaction of the appeal court case regarding the sale of a too-wide RV, the concept of a judge laying down a definitive ruling strikes me as an oxymoron.

I'll post in the other thread in a mo.

Dave


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## des

Hi again. Another point to clear up, or should it be another thread? I tow on an A-frame (yes i know all the doubts about this) but my towed weight exceeds 750kgs. George, you seem to be the man who has researched this. Does this swim in the same muddy waters? Des. (currently planning to take a C+E, but not wanting to spend the £1000 or so to do it!)


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## 88724

Yes A frames to the *letter of the law *are ilegal, again no case ever bought YET.

Dave the case I am guessing that you are going to quote (Bramhill Versus Edwards(Destination RV)) defies logic

1. The judge relies on the fact that although ilegal no-one as yet been prosecuted, does that mean A frames are now legal ? ie the law as been in place for ages but no-on yet done under it. Same with motorhomes over 7.5 tonnes, would they allow us to use the blind eye "Nelsons touch" defence

2.usually it is not fit for purpose if it cannot be used in the normal expected manner, by precedent if the item is not legal it fails plain and simple, this is the first time its been agreed as ilegal but that it still fits !! The only way this seems to work is if you consider Radar detectors these are (were?) ilegal, but they did work so were fit for purpose but not legal to use, hmmm


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## des

Hi George. Sorry, asked the wrong question. Do you think towing a trailer over 750kgs behind a heavy motorhome requires C+E? Des


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## Scotjimland

Hi des 
Have a look at this link for motorhome FAQs

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/faqs.shtml

and this one for A frame

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml

I do not endorse or necessarily agree with everything said but it's a reasonable starting place...


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## 88724

Hi

The second of the link shows exactly why an A frame is ilegal

The first link is wrong and I quote

*A common misapprehension was that, as a motorhome is not a 'goods vehicle', you could drive any size on a standard car licence, this is not the case. The DVLA have confirmed that the licence requirements apply to all vehicles.*

DVLA do say that however, its their opinion, DVLA Opinion is not worth Diddly in a court of law, when pushed they cannot show the legisaltion that backs them up in their opinion and its the law that counts.


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## Scotjimland

ScotJimland said:


> I do not endorse or necessarily agree with everything said but it's a reasonable starting place...


Hi George
As I said, I don't agree with everything said, it's a useful guide, others must make up their own minds on the licensing laws.


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## 88724

Hi Jim

Put at its simplist, if the DVLA were right, they would simply quote the legislation. instead eveything they send says that it is simply their opinion

Quote

*Categories of vehicles and their descriptions can be found here. DVLA cannot give legal advice on how vehicles are classified but, generally speaking it depends on the weight of the vehicle or the number of passengers it can carry.
Any queries should be directed to 0870 240 0009 and lines are open Mon - Fri 8am - 8.30pm and Sat 9am - 5.30pm

This information is not intended to be a definitive statement of law.*

After 2 years they still cannot point out the law that supports their view, why? because there is no law that supports their view.

PS anyone who as followed this for a few years will notice a little change, they used to refer you to Construction and use Marsham for vehicle classification (as this is who decides according to legislation) because Marsham disagree with them on motorhomes, they now list there own incorrect classifications.


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## chellaman

In an attempt to answer the original question, my reply is comparatively simple.
If you accept that it is OK to drive an RV over 7500kg, then you should buy the one you currently like.
If you need to drive one with a max weight of 7500kg, then you must either forget this one and buy a different one, or downrate this one to 7500kg.
Downrating is a simple process and only involves filling in a form and paying about 60 quid to an approved company(whose details I can give you) for a replacement weight plate.
However, downrating only makes sense if the RV's basic weight is sufficiently below 7500kg to leave you with an adequate payload.
Only you can decide what payload you need, but it's fairly easy sums. 
It's likely that you will underestimate, so remember to include everything and decide how you will travel as regards all the variables such as fluids!


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## des

I'm sure this topic can and will run and run, but from my reading of the above link on A-frames, it appears that an A-frame with a Brake Buddy system is legal. It can be reversed without manual intervention. It does brake on all 4 wheels. There is a brakeaway system which fully applies the brakes in the event of detachment. The only part not fully complied with is the question of the drawbar being kept off the ground in the event of separation. It is possible to fit a jockey wheel to the A-frame (mine has one to make it possible to reposition the car easily if the whole lot has to be separated. Comments please. Des.


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## 88724

Hi Des

read here regardless of brake buddies A frames are ilegal

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-108514.html#108514


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## 97022

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Des
> 
> read here regardless of brake buddies A frames are ilegal
> 
> But - if it is safe (legal) to drive over 7500kg on a car licence because there has never been a successful prosecution then it is just as safe (legal) to tow on an A frame.
> 
> david


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## Invicta

Hey Guys! (it seems to be mainly the male species posting on this thread) 

My latest RV has a Ford Triton Engine V-10. 

The weights as stated in the specification of the vehicle are as follows: 

Gross Vehicle Weight (GVWR) 14,050 
Gross Combined Weight (GCWR) 20,000 
Dry (UVW) 11,245 
Weight ratings all in lbs (is the American lb the same as the UK one, as the gallons arn't, are they?!)

My question is what class of licence is required to drive this? 

Can anyone give me some idea of the MPG I should expect to get(petrol)?


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## 88724

Hi Invicta

Weight ratings all in lbs (is the American lb the same as the UK one, as the gallons arn't, are they?!) 

No they are different 
US Gallon is 1.2009502 UK gallon ie theirs is smaller

1 UK Lb = 2.20462KG

1 US Lb = 2.204624 KG

so their Lb is ever so slightly heavier by 1.000002 X Uk Lb

I am fairly certain that its the 140505 thats used for conversion to UK "licencing requirements" (lets not get into that debate again) which gives a weight of 65793.5196 KG well within the UK 7.5 Tonne limit 

(if you believe weight limit's apply to motorhomes)


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## Invicta

Thanks for your informative answer George. 

Shouldn't salespeople discuss the do's and dont's of vehicles weights? I have NEVER had one discuss this subject with me as a prospective purchaser. 

In my case it has been the other way around after having experienced incorrect tyres having been fitted for the weight of my vehicle with almost disasterous consequences.

On the insurance side at least SAFEGUARD had my model in their database. If it had been overweight or whatever I would have expected my request for insurance cover to be rejected or am I wrong to assume this would have happened?


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## DABurleigh

"Shouldn't salespeople discuss the do's and dont's of vehicles weights?"

Unfortunately their dilemma is that if they did their profit would probably decrease. 

Dave


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## 88724

Hi Invicta

Yes, you are wrong to assume that they will inform you of any problems, why should they worry they have the best of both worlds your money in their pocket and if they have not got to pay out because you are ilegal then all the better.

You only have to look at the A frame debate several people say they have cover for A frame towing which is ilegal (other than for recovery) and yet they issued cover, whethor they would pay out is different matter.
They may have your model of motorhome in their database, but that will only answer the general questions that they want to know for risk assessment purposes.

I have never been asked once whethor I have (what some people) consider the correct licence for greater than 7.5 Tonnes, My previous bus had a rating of 9.5 Tonnes in standard trim, the insurers did not ask whethor I had had it derated or if I had a HGV licence, they only wanted to know that it was converted to a motorhome.


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## 98452

When it comes to selling mine I could do with loosing 300 lbs so who down rates then for £60.

I know I used to know but cant find info now :roll: :roll:


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## cabby

This is the page from DVLA.dealing with Motorhomes
10. Motorhomes
When driving a motorhome it is the maximum authorised mass (the total weight of the vehicle plus
the maximum load it can carry) which is relevant in determining the driving entitlement you need.
To drive any vehicle including a motorhome:
• between 3.5 and 7.5 tonnes, you need a category
C1 licence
• over 7.5 tonnes, you need a category C licence


cabby


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## olley

Hi Cabby look on the DVLA web at their terms and conditions, that makes it plain that they don't make the law, only give an opinion.

In their opinion an RV is a PHGV. They could just as easily said it was a Coach/Bus, in which case its not the weight but how many seats you have which determines the licence.

Olley


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## asprn

rventhusiast said:


> It is not necessarily the case that you will be simply pulled over by the police and checked thoroughly but it could be that your vehicle is involved in a serious road accident and maybe even not of your making. The resulting investigations by the police accident investigation unit will, I assure you, be very comprehensive indeed and will include not only a thorough mechanical check but reference to the weight of the vehicle and your licence. Should this occur and your insurance company feel you were at fault for driving a vehicle you were not licenced to drive I wouldn't be surprised if they refused to pay out. In any case, I would check that your insurance company will insure you for the vehicle and get it in writing if they agree.


David,

I have to say that the points you've made in response to this extremely important topic, are the best-put I've ever seen here (apart from mine, of course ).

RVsteveo - as both an RV owner & a member of HM Finests , my advice to you is:- *never* compromise your insurance cover. If you drive other than in accordance with your driving licence - and trust me, many, many RV owners do either knowingly or unknowingly - and you are involved in the incident David rightly refers to above - your insurers have the right to disown you. That potentially will ruin you, and lose everything you've worked for all your life, all for the sake of getting the right licence for the job.

It is also in my view, complete folly to pay any heed to tales of "one prosecution in 200 years" or whatever - this can only ever be anecdotal, but in any case isn't worth fighting over. Get the RV you want - and get the licence you need to drive it. It's not a difficult concept.  I passed my LGV two weeks ago, and am a better driver for it (as of course the test is designed to make you).

Good luck.

Dougie.


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## asprn

RR said:


> When it comes to selling mine I could do with loosing 300 lbs so who down rates then for £60.


I phoned DVLA over this very point last week. They are completely relaxed over both uprating and downrating. All they require is the V5 amended; they may require an inspection, but as you are (in the case of downrating) placing a voluntary restriction on the MAM, all that's required for DVLA is the declaration on the V5. They aren't interested in law enforcement - that's other agencies' jobs

If I come to sell my Rexair privately, I will downrate it, as I agree that it opens up a bigger market for non-Cat C licence-holders (my van is 7360kg empty, so legal on C1 although useless as an RV if then driven legally  ).

Dougie.


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## asprn

Invicta said:


> If it had been overweight or whatever I would have expected my request for insurance cover to be rejected or am I wrong to assume this would have happened?


I called Safeguard about this when I bought my Rexhall. They were not interested in the size or weight. I then asked what their view would be if I claimed whilst having been found to have committed a weighting offence (whilst driving it legally within the terms of my licence, i.e. downrated to 7500kg). They said it would not affect the claim. I then asked what their view would be if I claimed whilst having been found to have driven it other than in accordance with my driving licence (e.g. uprated to manufactuer's 8200kg whilst on a C1 licence). They said they would most likely not meet any claim.

So, in summary:-

Whilst downrated (7500kg MAM): C1 licence
Whilst uprated (8200kg): C licence

Your choice then is to keep or change your van to 7500kg MAM so as to avoid taking your LGV Cat C test but inevitably commit weighting offences, OR uprate the van and upgrade your licence to Cat C.

Uprating your van and NOT upgrading your licence will render your insurance invalid, as you are committing a licence offence.

Only one choice IMO.

Dougie.


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## adwb

*licence required by safeguard*

I have been told categorically by Safeguard that they apply the licence class and weight restriction appertaining to that class when investigating a claim. They DO NOT ASK at the time you take out the insurance however!
This has come up with us as I have a C class max 7.5 ton licence and my wife had a South African licence of a similar vintage which when swapped for a UK one was not taken in to account and her UK licence consequentially is restricted to 3.5 tons. this means she is not insured and cannot drive our Four Winds Citation 26BE as it weighs 6700kg gross. 
Alistair


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## 98585

I insured a 9.5 ton vehicle with safeguard just this Friday and they asked me (twice) if I had the correct licence to drive it.


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## 104471

*weight of vehicle*

it has got nothing to do with the weight, it is to do with construction and use

you can drive it on a car license, because it is not, :H G V (NOW L G V)

and it is not a : P S V (NOW P C V) , With respect don't look for problem's,

Trust me they don't exist, ( if the truth be knowen some of the people at

the D V L C don't know the correct ruling)

Regards Sussextrotter


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## adwb

quote"it has got nothing to do with the weight, it is to do with construction and use 
you can drive it on a car license, because it is not, :H G V (NOW L G V) 
and it is not a : P S V (NOW P C V) ,"

Yes I agree and understand your point but knowing the insurance industries propensity for refuting claims on any grounds, this matter of weight vs licence iro a motor home is too fraught with grey areas to contemplate driving on a "wrong" licence and then having to find the money to pay your brief to fight it in court for you.
Alistair


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