# Tonight I have succumbed



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I have been on a diet, the sort to control diabetes, but not for that reason, just to lose weight so´s I can get into a bicinini for the summer >
It´s the low carb diet and since the 4th Jan I´m missing 1 stone. No potatoes, rice or noodle have passed my lips since I started, no sweets, mixer drinks beer, wine or spirit, nothing with flour in except 2 slices of toast every morning with a boiled dippy egg.

Tonight I have opened a 1 ltr. box of wine poured myself a glass and it tasted very nice so I have poured a second. So-- as I have started this box and there is only me here what shall I do with the rest ?


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Don't rush it Jan.

Ray.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)




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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Ackshirley you done well Jan so have a reward. Ive had too many rewards so will be starting my diet again tomorrow when I get my covid jab. Wont be drinking for at least two weeks as apparently it can mess it up and I need to get back to losing weight again anyway.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

The boxes are SUPPOSED to last 3 months, but somehow they never seem to last 3 weeks.....

Enjoy over a period of time, don't ration it yo say one glass every week, but have a small glass when you think you really deserve it.

Only you can decide what constitutes "really deserve it", beware of false prophets who have been found even amongst those on MHF, but no names, no packdrill.

Enjoy. 🤗


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Enjoy it Jan, I have the odd glass now and again and have managed to keep my 3 stone off, although tonight’s steak dinner 2 glasses and a Swiss roll pud might add a bit, but I got good exercise cooking it so burned some off in the kitchen. 😄

Terry

Tonight’s pud


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## Drew (May 30, 2005)

So-- as I have started this box and there is only me here *what shall I do with the rest ?*

Drink it.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I´ve overdone it, 3 glasses which is about half the 1 ltr. box, dare not have another drop because it could get messy ukeleft:

There´s something in this alcohol, I just watched the first episode of *`Dresden*´ in German and understood everything that was going on, but not every word.

Dresden is on the next bombing tour, in the series.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

They started it.

Ray.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

raynipper said:


> They started it.
> 
> Ray.


Who Dresden ?
I think the start is common knowledge.


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## DJMotorhomer (Apr 15, 2010)

What is a bicinini ?

I thought it was a type of Italian boat lol


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

JanHank said:


> I´ve overdone it, 3 glasses which is about half the 1 ltr. box, dare not have another drop because it could get messy ukeleft:
> 
> There´s something in this alcohol, I just watched the first episode of *`Dresden*´ in German and understood everything that was going on, but not every word.
> 
> Dresden is on the next bombing tour, in the series.


Totally unjustifiable destruction of innocent people in order to give support to the Russians.

The duration of the attack, two nights by the RAF and a full daylight bombing campaign by the USAF from my memory, created a firestorm even worse than the one generated in Hamburg.

Sadly, the total number of casualties can only ever be a guesstimate as people were there as refugees, as fighting troops, as conscripts, as labourers as simple civilians and many were do destroyed as to be unrecognisable as human remains, let alone any attempt at identification.

The Destruction of Dresden by David Irving was a book that I have read several times, with the question remaining; WHY ?

The book is no longer regarded as an authoritarian source as the estimates varied from edition to edition, from 185,000+ to 50,000 and then up again to 135,000 as different sources of evidence were included.

Wikipedia currently says 20,000 - 25,000 lost their lives.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

DJMotorhomer said:


> What is a bicinini ?
> 
> I thought it was a type of Italian boat lol


Emphasis on the *nini* Dave, well in this instance :laugh:


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

You will (I hope) be pleased to hear I have no hang over, it didn’t help me sleep better either, head down at midnight head awake at 2am slept again until 4 am and not slept since :frown2: 

Today is weigh in, but losing anything over the past 2 weeks has not happened, it may be the cortisone I am taking for the itchy rash, I’d rather be without the scratching than without the weight.

I bought myself an exercise bike from Aldi to strengthen my leg muscles, it’s working I discover when I walk up stairs. It’s boring unless You read or watch TV while peddling so that’s what I do and my Ten minutes has now reached 15 mins a time, not fantastic, but as I haven’t ridden a bike for 12 years or more I’m not disappointed, hopefully it is doing the back muscles a bit of good as well.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

The not sleeping is not good, but the exercise is brilliant, well done !

The Tour de France comes up later in the year, are you planning ?

Keep it up, it will help and your own comfort has to be the most important thing. I presume that you have tried the normal not using phone or tablet or laptop for an hour before bed ? Even with the blue light exclusion, apparently they stimulate the pineal gland (primitiveveye within the brain) and help to make it harder to sleep.

MrsW has had similar problems and now takes melatonin one hour before bed, bought from the pharmacy and it seems to have made a considerable difference to her sleep pattern. Might be worth finding out more about.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Thats nice to know Dave but I really don't want to take anything to sleep as I'm sure we can become addicted or even dependant on it eventually. Dealing with the day to day problems and aggravations allow me more sleep.

Ray.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Penquin said:


> The not sleeping is not good, but the exercise is brilliant, well done !
> 
> The Tour de France comes up later in the year, are you planning ?
> 
> ...


Nothing lost again 😒.
We have had a few discussions on facts about sleep, or lack of it Dave. My sleep pattern has been up the creek since my menopause years and unless I've had a sleeping tablet now and then I haven't slept a night through without waking at least twice, since, sometimes laying awake for hours. I have done some good work at 4 in the morning though, even worked out and drew how a heating plan would work and got a Plummer called Tolly to carry out my plan connecting a boiler with the Aga for central heating, worked perfectly and as far as I know it's still working in our old bungalow in England 😁. Only if I have nothing interesting to do during the day will I have 30 mins shut eye, but that's not often. 
As I had no idea what a PC was in those days, except a police constable, my trouble can't be blamed on use of anything similar before bed.8
I will however try what Mrs. D is taking. Amazon have many makes Dave, what's the make your wife has?


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

raynipper said:


> Thats nice to know Dave but I really don't want to take anything to sleep as I'm sure we can become addicted or even dependant on it eventually. Dealing with the day to day problems and aggravations allow me more sleep.
> 
> Ray.


How often do you go without a good nights sleep Raymond?


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Frequently the last 3 or 4 years Jan. But it's only rarely, maybe once a fortnight I feel I have tossed and turned all night and then find I don't wake until well after 8am. It seems 'normal' to look at the clock about 1am, 3am and 5am. and the next minute 6.30 and get up. But it can vary.

Ray.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

There was a whole thread that went on for ages about insomnia. Alcohol is known to wake you up again after the initial sedative effect. It has no effect on me as, like you Jan, I wake up at intervals during the night anyway. I have tried all the usual tricks and some not so usual tricks. I never use screens around bedtime or when I wake in the night. Even the bedside clock has a red display. Funnily enough lockdown has helped, though not cured, it. I still wake up and go down to take a couple of co codamol, read for a bit, then I sleep until about 7 ish which is unheard of for me.

We can't easily get Melatonin here but I might look on amazon when we know which is a good make. Magnesium is also supposed to be good if taken at bedtime.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

patp said:


> There was a whole thread that went on for ages about insomnia. Alcohol is known to wake you up again after the initial sedative effect. It has no effect on me as, like you Jan, I wake up at intervals during the night anyway. I have tried all the usual tricks and some not so usual tricks. I never use screens around bedtime or when I wake in the night. Even the bedside clock has a red display. Funnily enough lockdown has helped, though not cured, it. I still wake up and go down to take a couple of co codamol, read for a bit, then I sleep until about 7 ish which is unheard of for me.
> 
> We can't easily get Melatonin here but I might look on amazon when we know which is a good make. Magnesium is also supposed to be good if taken at bedtime.


Magnesium I have been taking for over a year now Pat to ward off leg cramp at night, funny enough last night was one of the nights it failed me and I had foot and ankle cramp :frown2:


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

This is rapidly becoming g a self help medication thread. !

I have used quinine for night time cramp, but it's no longer available here so my consultant recommended Schweppes Zero Tonic Water as it contains quinine extract - many others don't contain it.

Two glasses of that at lunchtime (without the gin) certainly helps and has more or less stopped the worst of the cramps.

Once again, worth a look at, the flavour is perfectly OK as a lunchtime drink.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I know Graham @GMJ was troubled greatly by it. It seems more prevalent in women than men and that is certainly the case in our house. Chris once, famously, slept through a car hitting a telegraph pole outside our house followed by me yelling out the window was everyone ok and then holding a shouted conversation with neighbour who was searching for the driver! Funnily enough when we used to wild camp I would sleep like a log and Chris would be hyper vigilant all night waking at the slightest sound.

I am sure that hormones are involved. There is one theory that older women would be on baby care duties during the night, allowing young mothers to get some sleep, and that is why we are such light sleepers.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I had quinine from the doctor Dave, worked for a couple of weeks and then not, tonic water I also had before the diet, too much sugar in it to drink on a diet, I still have half a dozen bottles in the cupboard along with 2 may be 3 bottles of gin :grin2:

As my problem started at the hormone change time maybe the melatonin is what I am lacking. You haven´t told us the make Dave.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

patp said:


> I know Graham @GMJ was troubled greatly by it.


I still am Pat :frown2:

As it goes, I have been working with the Dr for the last 2 months as my meds became sub optimal. We are now back where I was - medication-wise - 15 years ago!

I am however now trying 'Sleep Restriction' techniques. It's early days so no comment as of yet.

Have tried CBT (group and one-on-one sessions); acupuncture; hypnotherapy; on line courses; books; melatonin; proper sleeping tablets; non addictive meds from the Dr; over the counter meds; anti-histamines...all to no avail. I have given up caffeine and virtually given up alcohol; we have adjusted our eating times; we have no blue screens in the bedroom; and I wear an eye mask to bed!

The Dr has basically given up and there is no sleep clinic I can be referred to locally. I suspect at some stage I will have to go private unfortunately.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm pretty short on sleep too. In my case it's gout with a good dollop of sciatica.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

erneboy said:


> I'm pretty short on sleep too. In my case it's gout with a good dollop of sciatica.


400mg of Allopurinal every day keeps my gout in check Al


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I'll get some on Monday Graham, ta.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

And there’s me thinking Barry was the gout King.

Terry


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm just copying him.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

erneboy said:


> I'm just copying him.


That's a limp excuse.

Terry


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

erneboy said:


> I'll get some on Monday Graham, ta.


Hi Alan, good to hear from you.

I'm supposed to have a blood test every year for uric acid in my blood stream. From memory the 'count' should be below 300 (I have no idea what that means btw). Mine started close to 500 prior to taking the Allopurinol and after trying 300mg I went to 400mg very quickly. Due to the CV I haven't had a blood test for 2 years so am well overdue. My last blood test showed 270 I think...so below the mystical magical 300!

I could do with it going down to 300mg as that would be 1 tablet instead of 2 but am not complaining as I have not had a flare up for 2 years now.

I'm sure you have been but if not it might be worth seeing what your uric acid level is Al and that way it would be easier to work out a plan of attack.

Drug info here...

https://www.nhs.uk/medicines/allopurinol/


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

So sorry to hear you are still struggling Graham. I had thought that retirement might cure the insomnia for you.

My doctor refused to prescribe the Z drug, that I was on, any longer. Seems a bit ridiculous to be concerned about a seventy year old person becoming addicted to sleep. To be honest it made little difference anyway. I am now on a small dose of amitriptyline as it is supposed to help with pain. My pain only happens at night and stops when I get up. I am doing Clinical Pilates to help with it and that does seem to be working!

I still wake up every night but it is improving a little. I have even slept through on a couple of occasions! think this improvement is due to my acceptance of it and so letting go of my annoyance. Lock down has helped because social interaction is a big theme of my sleepless nights. I re run conversations over in my head. If I have had none (ha ha) then I cannot do that. I now just get up, as soon as I wake up, take a couple of co codamol so that any pain is dealt with once I go back to bed, read for 15 minutes or so and then go back to bed. I always, then, fall back to sleep. I never lay in bed wishing I could sleep as I read in a sleep book that doing so teaches your body to be awake in bed. That makes a lot of sense to me.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

GMJ said:


> Hi Alan, good to hear from you.
> 
> I'm supposed to have a blood test every year for uric acid in my blood stream. From memory the 'count' should be below 300 (I have no idea what that means btw). Mine started close to 500 prior to taking the Allopurinol and after trying 300mg I went to 400mg very quickly. Due to the CV I haven't had a blood test for 2 years so am well overdue. My last blood test showed 270 I think...so below the mystical magical 300!
> 
> ...


Thanks Graham, good to hear from you too.

I was having regular tests pre covid, and will again.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Hi Pat

I am on 50mg of Amitrip purely for sleep however I think it having little effect on my sleep. I used to be on this a few years ago and went up from 10mg to 70mg over a period of time until I stopped and tried what seemed like a 100 different things since. Now I am back where I started on amitrip.

I have recently started some sleep restriction ideas: I now read until 11 (formerly 10) and get up at 6 (formerly 8). the idea being that you focus on core hours in bed and use that time for just sleeping. I have also bought a sleeping mask for the early mornings.

It's probably too early to say if I am getting benefit as it takes 2 weeks to cut in apparently.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

erneboy said:


> Thanks Graham, good to hear from you too.
> 
> I was having regular tests pre covid, and will again.


Yes I need to get back in but like you I guess, I didnt really want to bother them whilst they were busy with the blasted CV.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

My approach to sleeplessness is a bit like Pat's.

If I can't sleep it will be due to leg and foot pain. I just get up, turn World Service on, it's got good stuff all night long, and while listening I'll use my computer to do some language lessons, explore the news or research something I'm interested in. I find that it's best for me to do that standing up. I rarely spend more than a few minutes sitting.

That way I can spend a sleepless night absorbed in interesting things. I find I don't miss the sleep. Next day I'm fine, not tired, looking for things to do.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I have levels of tiredness the next day: between tired and bolluxed


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

GMJ said:


> I have levels of tiredness the next day: between tired and bolluxed


Sorry to hear that. I though I'd be the same.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Not often I feel tired during the day either Alan, but id I do it will be as soon as I have eaten lunch, 20-30 mins shut eye soon puts me right.
However if I am busy as I am these days I can keep going until late evening.

Last night was a very good night, head down at 11pm woke at 2.30 and again 4.30 then read until 6 am and then managed another 1hr 45 mins.:laugh:

My sleep pattern has been all over the place for the past 36 years, I´m used to it now. A sleeping tablet once in a while is the only way I sleep for 6-7 hours on the trot. I´ve done a lot of thinking and planning in the early hours of the morning, once planned a central heating system connecting an Aga with a boiler, it´s probably still working in the bungalow in England.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I do the same Jan. I've often solved mechanical problems in the middle of the night.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I've bought the tablets Daves wife is taking with some success, I hope they are still working Dave.

30 cost a few cents off 10€ from the chemist so I wont be going to Amazon where they are a lot more expensive.

Fingers crossed they work for me.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

If they are melatonin Jan I hope that they work for you. I had a 3 week course and they didn't for me.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

GMJ said:


> If they are melatonin Jan I hope that they work for you. I had a 3 week course and they didn't for me.


Ah yer but you´re a Guy :grin2: maybe they only work on Gals. I will report in tomorrow, if its at 4 am you´ll know it hasn´t worked on the first try.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I thought I’d give it a kick start and begin with 2 tablets as the instructions say 1 or 2 , now is it because I was physically and mentally tired or did they help ?

Head on pillow 11 pm woke at 1.30 am for a short walk to the loo, soon back to sleep until 5.30 ish still awake 5.45 so have had my cuppa answered a few things on the forum and will now lay here to plan my day, maybe I will dose off.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Might take a few days to cut in/build up in your system Jan?

My Sleep Restriction techniques seem to be starting to help. It's a simple thing but I am tired now when I switch off the light at 11 and again when I get up at 6. This is normal apparently and it takes 2 weeks of pain to get to where I will need to be. I still don't get straight off at 11 despite being tired but I do within half an hour, mostly. I still wake up during the night but I feel that I'm getting back off (not all the time but some times). And this morning I woke at 4.30 then did go back off so I overslept until 6.20! Now that is a first...


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Glad to hear that Graham. Fingers crossed for you.

So you are not following the "blacked out bedroom and no screens after 10pm" rule then Jan


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

GMJ said:


> Might take a few days to cut in/build up in your system Jan?
> 
> My Sleep Restriction techniques seem to be starting to help. It's a simple thing but I am tired now when I switch off the light at 11 and again when I get up at 6. This is normal apparently and it takes 2 weeks of pain to get to where I will need to be. I still don't get straight off at 11 despite being tired but I do within half an hour, mostly. I still wake up during the night but I feel that I'm getting back off (not all the time but some times). And this morning I woke at 4.30 then did go back off so I overslept until 6.20! Now that is a first...


I'm on alpurinol since Sunday as suggested Graham. Fingers crossed. It's weeks since I had a beer. I won't risk one unless I get back to normal. I have slept pretty much pain free for the last two nights, so that's an improvement. Ta.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

First of all I am very pleased to here what Graham and Alan have reported. :smileymouse:

I don´t know what is happening here, I wrote everything down that I want to do today, got under the covers again and I know I slept on and off because I kept dreaming, no idea what about, everything gone when I woke up properly at 8.45, but I was very happy just laying there, not worrying about a thing, mind you it is dull and wet outside, might have been different if the sun was shining. I still feel vey relaxed.

A thought I´ve had is-- is this Melatonin a natural hormone we should all have? must look it up or maybe someone already knows. If it is and I have been missing it for the past 35 odd years since the menopause it could be the reason for my trouble, who knows. Too early to tell if it is a wonder fix or just circumstance just yet.

*According to this it is a hormone we all possess*
Melatonin is a natural hormone3 that is produced by the pineal gland in the brain and then released into the bloodstream. Darkness prompts the pineal gland to start producing melatonin while light causes that production to stop.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

erneboy said:


> I'm on alpurinol since Sunday as suggested Graham. Fingers crossed. It's weeks since I had a beer. I won't risk one unless I get back to normal. I have slept pretty much pain free for the last two nights, so that's an improvement. Ta.


My doctor prescribed Alopurinol for me around Christmas time for Gout as he said I could no longer have Colchicine (I still have some) but Ive not taken it. Last time I tried Alopurinol it made my gout 10 times worse so I have not dared try it again yet. My gout went away for years when I lost weight but as soon as I got back over 17 stone it came back. Did you start taking the Alopurinol while you had gout Alan and did it actually go away as a result of taking it?

Ive also not drank beer really for a few years now. I found Scotch and Red wine less gout inducing.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

My gout hasn't gone Barry, it does seem to have eased but today will only be my third day on allopurinol, so I did start while I had gout. I've had it for months, I needed to do something.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

What dose have you started on Al?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

600mg. It's what's on my prescription. I'm to try that for up to a week and then cut back to 300mg, or cut back sooner if I notice a big improvement. I have improved a bit.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Maybe drop it 100's Al just in case. that way you'll perhaps find a good level for you.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I will slowly reduce as soon as I feel better Graham.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Did they give you a blood test for Uric Acid Al?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes, just not recently. Will go back soon, but been avoiding the Doctor's surgery since covid. It's a big practice in the nearest big town. I reckon it has to be a hot bed.

They did all kinds of tests and reckoned the only problem was uric acid.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Furry muff.

That's why I haven't been back for a while too. I'll give it a few months and then get one done as I'd like to go down to 1 tab instead of 2 if I can.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Oui.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I have to succumb to sleep tonight, I feel so tired, this didn´t happen before, I was wide awake until midnight most nights, can´t see properly coz I keep yawning and that makes the eyes water. I will keep taking the tablets perhaps they have something to do with it, or perhaps not. :frown2:


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Night Night Jan.

Ray.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

If this hormone is going to do anything it’s taking a while to work. The first night was Just luck. It’s been a long more awake than asleep night, I slept from about 9.30 until 11.45 after a while went off again until 3 am from then on I seemed to be awake most of the time, when I did sleep at one stage I dreamt about a fast flowing river I was about to fall into, but when I shouted for help I had no voice, where does the rubbish come from.:frown2:
At 6.15 I surrender and made a cuppa.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I think I'm getting some traction with my Sleep Restriction. 

By 11 at night I am tired and am still tired when I get up at 6 every day. On between though I think I'm getting a better quality of sleep now with less interruptions. I am pretty knackered during the day as well which is normal for 2 weeks or so apparently. Some time soon my body should adjust to fill in with more sleep during 11 - 6 to compensate. 

I have upped my exercise too: apart from our walks and short ebike runs I bought a rowing machine 2 weeks ago plus am doing a couple of hours gardening here and there now too...so I guess all of this will help.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

GMJ said:


> I think I'm getting some traction with my Sleep Restriction.
> 
> By 11 at night I am tired and am still tired when I get up at 6 every day. On between though I think I'm getting a better quality of sleep now with less interruptions. I am pretty knackered during the day as well which is normal for 2 weeks or so apparently. Some time soon my body should adjust to fill in with more sleep during 11 - 6 to compensate.
> 
> I have upped my exercise too: apart from our walks and short ebike runs I bought a rowing machine 2 weeks ago plus am doing a couple of hours gardening here and there now too...so I guess all of this will help.


What exactly is it you are doing Graham, have I missed a post where you have told us what it is?


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

It's simple Jan. It's an attempt to restrict the hours in bed to be purely sleeping ones.

Prior to last week I'd go to bed at 9 and get up at 8. Mrs GMJ needs to have around 10 hours sleep ideally for health reasons so I match her as I never want to disturb her. The net effect of this was that I would not be tired enough to sleep for anywhere near these hours hence my insomnia.

The Sleep Restriction idea is pure common sense really. You get up out of bed rather than lying there tossing and turning. I now don't switch the light off until 11 (I read my kindle which isn't a blue screen) and physically get up at 6am. Neither of these things disturb my wife. Therefore I have restricted my opportunity to sleep by 3 hours.

I have selected the 11pm and 6am times. These are arbitrary and I can amend these to suit me after a couple of weeks if it isn't working.

The idea then becomes that because I am restricting my sleep by these 3 hours, I become more tired during the day and hence the core hours in bed (between 11pm and 6am) yield better sleep quality. As I say, I am more tired during the day now and I think I'm getting more/better quality sleep than before. If after a couple of weeks I think I can do better, I can play with the times and maybe restrict the hours even more...say to 5am or 5.30am...to see if this improves it even more.

It's not great science but does have logic I think. Given that I have tried absolutely everything meds-wise (and the Dr cannot help anymore) and off the shelf/homeopathic wise; plus acupuncture/hypnotherapy/CBT/Relaxation techniques...so far - touch wood - this has yielded more encouraging results.

Hopefully when we start going away in the MH I can carry it on but it may be more difficult to be quieter in the MH so as not to disturb Mrs GMJ.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I have been doing a form of this for some time Graham. It does work better than most other things I find. I have also given up feeling fed up/angry/frustrated about lack of sleep. My main aim is to not lie in bed awake. It makes such sense when you realise that you are teaching your body that bed is a place for sleep. In my case reading is another trigger for sleep. I always read when I go to bed and have never had any trouble falling asleep at bedtime. So I use that as another brain trigger in the middle of the night.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

But if you are in bed but reading not sleeping that hits the idea of bed is for sleep on the head. Until last night when at 8pm I was so so tired I had trouble seeing any thing because of my yawning tears, I don’t usually go to bed until after 11 pm each night, last night was the earliest I have been to bed for years. If I got up when I woke up that would give me two and a half hours sleep at the most, so what are you supposed to do, get up and do something for hal% an hour and then go back to bed or what?

I suppose it works for some, depending on what has caused the disturbed sleep in the first place and how long it’s been going on, maybe 37 ish years is a bit too long.:frown2:


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Yes ideally you are not supposed to read in bed but I have to compromise on this so I don't wake Mrs GMJ up. It doesn't seem to be a problem thus far.

I think the idea is that by restricting the hours, you are so tired during the day that you then get a better quality of sleep when you are in bed. I'm guessing it works differently for different folks but in essence my understanding of it is that:-

- You set the core hours yourself (or via a consultation with a specialist in the field) and adhere to these. These will be different for each person and it maybe that you have to start with only 3 or 4 hours in bed. The stuff I have read emphasises that the first 2 weeks can be very challenging during the day.

- You can amend the hours to suit yourself but need to give each amendment 2 weeks to work.

I would think that everyone is different so my 7 hour slot wouldn't work for others. I went through years of zero/1.5 hour/3 hour sleep nights. I am not there now hence my 7 hours however for me - and me only - if I were still suffering from 3 hour sleep patterns I would restrict my time in bed to 3 hours to start with. Then when that worked I would lift it to 4.5 hours; give it 2 weeks; then lift it again if able. 

Yes it would be pretty knackering but it would still be better than the fitful, tossing and turning; lying there for hours 'sleep' that I used to get. That left me knackered anyway so nothing lost for me.

Don't get me wrong...I am still waking up during these 7 hours however I am getting back off I think. If I find that 7 hours doesn't work, I will drop to 6.

It may not work for everyone but am happy to share just in case it can help more than myself (and Pat).

As the mornings are getting lighter now, I have also taken to wearing a mask to cover my eyes as well. This is also helping I think. I have found a really comfortable, adjustable one on Fleabay for little more than a pound, which I'm happy to link to if anyone is interested.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

My pattern over a long period is 4 hours. This is not set in stone but seems to be definitely a pattern. I have read that we do sleep in four hour cycles but most people don't come round enough to know about it. Once I am awake enough to know it I always get up and go downstairs to read and start the "going to bed" routine again. I do take a couple of co-codamol because nine times out of ten something is hurting somewhere and I want to eliminate the possibility that it will cause me to stay awake. Co-codamol make you drowsy. 
I can get another couple of hours sleep doing this pattern. This is working at the moment. Not ideal because of the break in the middle of the night but better than the alternative of up and down all night long. Just lately (due to lockdown?) I have had the odd 7 hour night! I can find no other reason for this. It may be lockdown but I am wondering if my Zinc deficiency has an influence. Reading Kev's wife's forum on all the things to do with thyroid has made me more determined to get my zinc levels up and corresponding copper levels down so that I can look into thyroid levels. This means I have been taking more Zinc and I introduced Magnesium and B6 again. It did not help before but I am going to give it longer this time. 
I also have to factor in that we are self building our bungalow with all the stresses and strains that brings to the table (or bed  ).

Is there a hereditary factor does any think? My mother was a very poor sleeper. Chris sleeps like a log and so did his mother.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I have never heard of sleep problems with anyone else in the family, but maybe they didn´t get talked about, who knows, can´t ask now.

It seems I must try reading while I am up and go to bed at a regular time without doing anything else in bed but sleep and get up for another read if I wake and can´t get back to sleep. I will start that routine today and see what happens still taking the Melatonin (I never remember the name, always have to go and look at the box) One can but try. When Hans was here I only went to bed no book Kindle, iPad or anything beside the bed, but that made no difference.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

This morning I noticed I suddenly have dark lines under my eyes, they were not there before today I´m sure.
I have just had a look to see what might cause it and look what I discovered, maybe I am not short on this hormone after all and now overloaded with it. =

"Teal"]lack of sleep or poor sleeping habits
allergies, including hay fever[/SIZE]
*hyperpigmentation, which happens when the body produces more melanin*
reduced levels of fatty tissue around the eyes
thinning skin under the eyes
anemia from iron deficiency
overexposure to sunlight
frequent rubbing of the eyes
aging
smoking
inherited genes
thyroid conditions
dehydration
dermatitis
eye drop treatment for glaucoma, such as bimatoprost


I have not felt tired all day, just started to yawn around 9.30 I will now retire without Kindle or iPad.:smile2:


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yep, iPad itus Jan.

Ray.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Could be, Jan. If you google it you are told that lack of Melatonin causes a pale skin colour and insomnia. Of course it is not the only cause of insomnia.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I have woken at 4.30 the last 2 mornings so I think I'll take my meds later tonight to see if that helps. 

Putting the clocks forward tonight puts a slight wrinkle on things so I'll probably split the difference with the hour, and get up at the 'new' 6.30 tomorrow and then get back on track from Monday.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

The flippin' clock thing really messes with us insomniacs  Can anyone remember why we have to keep moving it? Have the Scottish dairy farmers got electric lights yet?

I remembered something else that is meant to be helpful the other day. A weighted blanket. I looked into them a while ago and they come with mixed reviews. I think you need to buy a quality one to prevent the weights from moving around and my dad is sitting on my shoulder saying "How Much!?"  I asked my daughter to find out from her occupational therapist colleagues what is a good one and I am pretty sure she said it was John Lewis. I do find I sleep better under a heavy duvet but then you get too hot. A weighted blanket would solve that problem.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

What's the science behind that then Pat?


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Maybe something to do with going back to the place you came from Graham, wrapped in your Mother womb where no harm could come to you. >

Too many of these fancy ideas for my liking, all money spinners to get money from the vulnerable, or desperate.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I would hate to be constricted by blankets tbh. I have my feet, chest and arms out from under the duvet at the drop of a hat so as not to get too warm.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I'm OK with weight on the body just not on my feet/toes. Seems to always want to bend the toes when they don't want to go. 
But I am resigned to waking and turning over maybe two or three times a night. But can sleep six or seven hours usually. I do need dark and as soon as light floods in I wake.

Ray.


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## baldlygo (Sep 19, 2006)

I believe it will be the last clock change here in France. We stay on summer times from now on.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I hope for the same here in Spain.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I think, Graham, that it is to help with tossing and turning. They are used by OT's for hyper active children quite a lot. I don't really suffer from tossing and turning just waking up and the brain kicking in to sort the world out  A bit like a duvet there are lots of pockets with tiny weights in them. The cheaper ones have negative comments about the weights moving and ending up on the edges. Long time since I looked at them but I think you have to choose one for your body size/weight. If OT's use them you would think there is some science behind the theory.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

baldlygo said:


> I believe it will be the last clock change here in France. We stay on summer times from now on.


Surely it will be the same here as well, I do hope so.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

That sounds sensible.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Got up at the 'new' 6.30 today instead of the normal 6.00 due to the clocks being messed around with. I'll wake Mrs GMJ up at 8.30 as well so it halves the shock to the system. We should be able to get back to normal tonight/tomorrow then.

I have shifted my sleep meds to 8.30pm as well to see if that helps me stay asleep/drowsy until 6.00am as prior to this morning. I have woken up at 4.30 for a couple mornings running and been unable to even drowse.

I think Pat mentioned somewhere sleep cycles of 4 hours. I definitely subscribe to the 1.5 hours-ish sleep cycle school as I find most of my awakenings happen around multiples of around 1.5 hours. For example prior to the last few months of trying new meds, I found that my old meds were working only for 1 x 1.5 or 2 x 1.5 hour sleeps...so I was waking up between 12.00 - 2.00am...hence the change of meds. Now I think I have pushed that back to 4.00am - 5.00am, which is a multiple of 3 or even 4, on the 1.5 hour-ish cycle. Which overall is feeling a lot better.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I was sleeping quite well until the sawing starts beside me at 5am. So get up at the new 6.30 to make a cuppa and get told off for waking the memsahib. 

Ray.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Fortunately Mrs GMj seems to have stopped her newly found hobby of snoring. We had a several weeks of it but after talking it through and using a rolled up large towel as a bolster to discourage her from lying on her back when asleep, it seems to have settled down.

It ranged from a Darth Vader impression to full blown snoring!


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Back from an early morning walk along the Dam by the river, I had company on the way back, a barge travelling exactly at my walking pace.
I have been awake for hours, taken photos of the lovely sunrise to show everyone.

I am stoping these hormones, they are doing no good and giving me dark lines under my eyes. The routine bed for sleep only isn´t working so I´ll give that up as well and just carry on as I have been for the past several a few years, I have survived this long I think I will survive a few more years.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Reminds me of a work colleague of Chris's. On returning from holiday in Yugoslavia he attended an appointment, with a consultant, to try to fix his terrible snoring. He explained the latest developments to the registrar which included the fact that, whilst on holiday, other residents of the hotel had complained about hearing terrible snoring. Some of these residents were a couple of floors away! Later, the consultant breezed in with the registrars notes in hand he sat down and said "What's this, your snoring can be heard in a hotel in Yugoslavia?!"


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I did go through that sort of pattern for a while, Graham but it has settled, usually, into a four hour sleep followed by a two or three hour sleep. What is so annoying is that on the odd occasion I sleep really well there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. I rack my brains for the things I have eaten or drunk but can never pin down a cause.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Do know Pat, its similar with me. Some nights zero/very little sleep and others are better - not great - but better. It's also not a case of one night bad, the next night better due to catch up. It simply has no pattern.

Alcohol or no alcohol. Exercise or no exercise. Food....none of them make any difference to me. I can be as tired going to bed one night and take 2 hours or longer, to drop off whereas the next time I feel as tired I could be off in 10-15 mins!


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

If we could only find a solution we would make a fortune!


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

That's the truth Pat.

Basically there is no non addictive drug out there for sleep issues/insomnia. My Dr had given up tbh. He admitted that he has run out of ideas so I am back on 50mg of amitriptyline which I stopped taking a number of years when it stopped working for me at 70mg!


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

My mulled wine usually puts people to sleep. Trouble is they must get addicted as when they wake up they ask for more.

Ray.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I am finding from being on a self help forum to do with thyroid issues that doctors are not that clued up with things like vitamins and minerals and even hormones like thyroid. 
I read an article, by a Daily Telegraph journalist, charting her journey with anxiety and insomnia through the HRT v no HRT. She ended up in Harley Street where a doctor tested (there's a novelty) her hormone levels and prescribed HRT and Testosterone. Her life was transformed! I took this to my GP who, to be fair, was interested. He prescribed HRT for me but told me that testosterone was not available on the NHS. The HRT was helpful but not a cure.

Now Testosterone is a huge help to sufferers with anxiety (I know this through my work in dog behaviour). When doctors say that they are not allowed to prescribe it are they telling the whole truth? I gave up in the end but if I had enough spare money to go the Harley Street route would I find the answer? Take away all the brain activity, that is rooted in anxiety, and do you come up with a cure for insomnia? Is it right to sedate anxiety or should we be boosting confidence?

When a GP runs out of ideas should they be referring? Chris had an interesting conversation with his GP which went along the lines of Doctor - I am a bit concerned about abc. I could do xyz but I am going to refer you to a heart consultant. *They may well think that I am an idiot but let's do it anyway.* Turned out a triple bypass was needed. Are our GP's under some sort of pressure to keep referrals down? Because a heart condition was involved action was taken. When insomnia is involved that action seems to be lacking.

My latest tactic is to gather as much evidence as I can (we are allowed access to all our tests etc) to put before the forum of very experienced people to see if I should push for a referral and if so in which direction. I have low zinc levels which no one seems to want to investigate. They just advise me to "get some zinc tablets from Boots". My copper levels are up. It took me months to get that test done. This affects Zinc levels. I want to know why but I cannot find anyone else who is interested!


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I spent the night with a Zolpidem, slept from 12.15 until 6.30 took a short walk to the loo and back to bed where I fell asleep again until almost 8.30. Once in a while I choose to have a bit of help.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I've stopped taking tablets that can lead to addiction tbh. I understand that once in a while it is fine (and indeed for a couple of weeks) but the last time I had a course of proper job sleeping tablets, after a week they stopped working and the alternatives were to stop or increase the dose. Not a path I want to go down.

Its great that it worked for you though Jan. Hopefully it might give your body a 'kick start'


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Nah it will be back to normal tonight. All together I have taken since August 20th 2019 *30* of them, I don´t think with the biggest stretch of the imagination I am addicted :grin2: It is wonderful thought to have that many hours sleep without any effort.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

That really *IS *a test of will...

We had Prosecco as an aperitif and red wine with the roast lamb today...... delicious.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

I'm looking forward to a glass of red tonight - 1st in 6wks. Also a bit of chocolate, yummm!

Happy Easter everyone!


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