# Dartford Crossing changes - october 2014.



## tonyt

No more tossing coins into the bucket.

Just one more thing to make the journey to Dover even more pleasant. :lol:

Dartford Toll Payment


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## Zebedee

Looks like it could be tricky for foreign visitors, or will they be allowed to sail through and be ignored? :?


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## bognormike

thanks Tony. I seem to remember reading about this a while back. :roll: 

it's all very well them saying you can pay by CC / text etc, or in advance, and that penalties will be implemented, but what about foreign visitors who go across? How do they know what to pay and how to do it? Would penalties be charged to non Uk registered vehicles? It sounds very much like the Congestion charge and LEZ in London.
The link to the details is very vague......


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## bognormike

snap!


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## peribro

I imagine that the economic benefits that will arise from reducing pollution, wasted fuel and queuing times, not to mention staffing costs at the tolls, will far outweigh the lost revenue that will arise even if every foreign registered vehicle failed to pay.


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## pippin

Interesting to note that the detection/payment system is to be run by SANEF - that well-known French Péage enterprise.

Funny how us foreign vehicles over there aren't able to escape their charges!


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## nicholsong

Does not sound so good for MHs touring because it means adding the cost of a text/phone call to the charge or trying to find somewhere to park at a retail outlet (which ones?)

Where will one get the text/tel nos.? Displayed at the bridge for solo drivers to write down while driving, - or do they stop and make an orderly queue while they do it? :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Geoff


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## tonyt

The solution of course is to cross between 10pm and 6am which is, and will remain, free of charge (for the time being?)


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## lifestyle

I would imagine you`ll be able to pay at any petrol station once it is up and running.
Coming back from Dover last November it took 35 minutes to get through .So hopefully this will speed things up.

Thanks for the info Tony


Les


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## 1943

peribro said:


> I imagine that the economic benefits that will arise from reducing pollution, wasted fuel and queuing times, not to mention staffing costs at the tolls, will far outweigh the lost revenue that will arise even if every foreign registered vehicle failed to pay.


not so good for the redundant staff though!

Bob


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## BrianJP

pippin said:


> Interesting to note that the detection/payment system is to be run by SANEF - that well-known French Péage enterprise.
> 
> Funny how us foreign vehicles over there aren't able to escape their charges!


That Could be good news for us Sanef toll tag holders here as It may work at Dartford.Sanef have always suggested this was on the cards so maybe it will happen now.


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## divil

Scrap the charge all together is what I say...bloody ridiculous thing to have!


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## peribro

> not so good for the redundant staff though!


Agreed but that's progress - similar thing over the years with railway crossing attendants, signal box workers and so on. Hopefully some of them will be re-employed within the new set up.


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## Gary1944

divil said:


> Scrap the charge all together is what I say...bloody ridiculous thing to have!


Totally agree. Wasn't it supposed to be free after the initial period of pay back. If it was in France the lorries and tractors would have forced them to reconsider long before now. Thats our fault of course, just too blooming law abiding.

I suppose the best that can be said for it is that the queues should reduce a bit, that is until they can find another way of fleecing us. Maybe they will just extend it over the whole of the uk, with Sanex's help of course. But wait, we do already pay. Thats what the Road Fund Licence is for isn't it?

Gary (disgruntled, older, and poorer).


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## Fatalhud

I think they also push the charge up another 50p  

Alan H


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## dalspa

Something needed to be done to prevent/reduce the waiting to get over the bridge. Travelled clockwise on Tues 8th mid afternoon to get down to Dover and the delay was about 40mins. Came back from Dover last evening and the clockwise traffic was probably double the length that we were caught in! The authorities go on about reducing emissions from vehicles but when it suits them they are happy to allow thousands of vehicles to inch along to get over the bridge - but then it's more about making money.
I think I read that the charges could have been dropped last year as the cost of the bridge had been met by the tolls - but then they decided to keep it as a money maker. It will be interesting to see how the new paying setup is done - if we are able to register and then put the amount up front for a return crossing, then I would be happy with that - if it allowed a straightforward drive though (at a reduced speed for the camera to pick up the registration number). 

DavidL
Ps. Last night we had intended to do an overnight at the Canterbury P & R but on taking the turnoff from the motorway traffic was being prevented from going back over the bridge towards Canterbury "because of an incident" on the roundabout outside the P & R, so had to continue home. Tried to Google this morning but couldn't find any info. Was anybody at the P & R last night that could update on "the incident".


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## Yaxley

It is probably the same system as on the M50 (Dublin Ring)
There were considerable delays at the Toll Bridge until they introduced the drive through system. The rates, phone no and web address are well advertised on the motorway. You can either prepay (phone or online or retail outlet) or post pay until the following day.
It certainly got rid of the queues. You can drive through at 100kph (60mph) as far as I remember.
I will be using the Dartford Crossing in about 10days time on the way to Dover. Can anyone tell me what the rate is for motorhomes and do you have to pay cash or can you pay by credit card.
Ian


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## Fatalhud

Yaxley said:


> It is probably the same system as on the M50 (Dublin Ring)
> There were considerable delays at the Toll Bridge until they introduced the drive through system. The rates, phone no and web address are well advertised on the motorway. You can either prepay (phone or online or retail outlet) or post pay until the following day.
> It certainly got rid of the queues. You can drive through at 100kph (60mph) as far as I remember.
> I will be using the Dartford Crossing in about 10days time on the way to Dover. Can anyone tell me what the rate is for motorhomes and do you have to pay cash or can you pay by credit card.
> Ian


£2, you pay the same as cars
You could try to pay by credit card, but be prepared to be lynched bye the 3000 cars behind you


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## Zozzer

I would like to know if disabled drivers will continue to be exempt from the toll.


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## Haresby

Please all read the full article.It's to be run by sanef.The same operators for France.Pay the toll or pay the fine with costs. :roll:


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## peribro

> I would like to know if disabled drivers will continue to be exempt from the toll.


I hope not - it's always seemed most unfair that disabled drivers have been exempt.


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## Zozzer

peribro said:


> I would like to know if disabled drivers will continue to be exempt from the toll.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope not - it's always seemed most unfair that disabled drivers have been exempt.
Click to expand...

I suppose you'll also think it unfair that I am exempt from paying the M6 Toll or the Severn Bridge toll and that I get free road tax.

Well I think it's unfair that you won't stand on a landmine and blow your leg off.


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## shingi

I'm with you peribro, and I think Zozzer's just trying to wind you up.

Disabled drivers whilst "on the move" in their vehicles are using the facility the same as everyone else, so why shouldn't they pay the proper price, as it has no bearing on their incapacity?


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## ob1

Unless they have changed the system recently you cannot pay by credit card. 

We live about two miles from the crossing and have to use it frequently and the delays can be chronic at times. A couple of years ago we had an electric grid failure in the area and they were forced to leave the toll barriers up - for about two days the traffic flowed through with no problems whatsoever. We can't wait.

Ron


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## rod_vw

Interesting thought re the charge for campers.

I drive a high top VW T5 camper and always pass as a 'Car' through the un-manned gates. However how is my vehicle identified from a commercial high top VW T5? The only visible difference is that I have side windows and a commercial delivery van may not.

Can the French company get it right here in the UK? Time will tell.

Rod


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## Jimbost

I Go through the Dartford tolls several times a year with the motorhome. Burstner 4.5 ton twin axle, £2 same as cars


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## whistlinggypsy

Exemptions
Vehicles currently exempt from paying the crossing charge will continue to be exempt. This includes vehicles exempt from paying Vehicle Excise Duty because they are used by or for someone with a disability. The full list of exemptions is described in legislation.

The Highways Agency plans to put in place a process to enable automatic identification of exempt vehicles. So once your vehicle is registered as exempt with Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency you should not have to register again.


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## 91502

I'm looking forward to all the moaning about disabled drivers being exempt and foreign driver not being made to pay.

Whats the betting half the people who post complaining are the same ones who moan about being charged class 3 or 4 on the autoroutes and tell us how to get reduced to a class 2?


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## bognormike

splutter! Grumble! Dammit, I'm not going to phone up & get a crossing, I'll go round the other way........



:idea:


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## fatbuddha

for all those moaning about foreign drivers and disabled I suggest you read the article mentioned by the OP

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dart-charge-dartford-crossing-remote-payment

it's been updated with the info you need

and for Zozzer's benefit:



> I suppose you'll also think it unfair that I am exempt from paying the M6 Toll or the Severn Bridge toll and that I get *free road tax*.


nobody in the UK pays road tax - so it can't be free. you are exempt from VED which is a tax based on CO2 emissions from your vehicle. road tax was abolished in 1938 (or thereabouts).


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## teemyob

There is currently a way to get through the crossing for free during the daytime.

I am not going to say how mind!.

As for the foreign vehicles. What is wrong with lanes for foreign vehicles with manned or Credit Card booths?.

At this stage, I am not getting drawn into the Disabled Argument.

TM


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## Haresby

*Dartford Crossing*

Have checked this change more than once.
The folk who are going to be running it are the nice folk who run the French toll system and have an office in Harrogate I think. It would seem all is covered,for instance:-
Non-UK users will be able to use the same payment channels. The automatic number plate recognition system will recognise non-UK vehicles and if there is any doubt number plates can be reviewed manually.

We recognise that no barrierless charging scheme is evasion free and that evasion will involve both UK and non-UK vehicles.

We are serious about tackling evasion and will use effective penalty and recovery processes. This includes a European debt recovery agency to support the recovery of outstanding charges. This approach has proven successful with similar schemes such as the London congestion charge.

Also:-Exemptions
Vehicles currently exempt from paying the crossing charge will continue to be exempt. This includes vehicles exempt from paying Vehicle Excise Duty because they are used by or for someone with a disability. The full list of exemptions is described in legislation .

The Highways Agency plans to put in place a process to enable automatic identification of exempt vehicles. So once your vehicle is registered as exempt with Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency you should not have to register again.
I have used the payment for the London congestion charge on many occasions with no problem.All angles covered me thinks.
Of course, if time permits there is always the Woolwich(free) Ferry


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## nicholsong

Haresby

Sorry but b*gger the Woolwich ferry.

Alternative is to take the A2 into the Blackwall Tunnel, on N.side you just keep straight on to the A12, turn N. onto A406( N.Circular road) next junction bear L. for M11 which takes you up to J27 of M25. Or, if you are not going so far North, carry continue on A12 to J28 of M25.

It is dual carriageway all the way with ( I think) not one light. At the moment it is often quicker than queuing for Dartford, whether that will change is too be seen. 

When I was driving professionally I and other drivers used this route frequently.

Even with the new system they will have to close the Dartford tunnel periodically to let the convoys of fuel tankers through. I think they are allowed over the Bridge with other traffic - I cannot remember waiting for them.

Geoff


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## fatbuddha

> Alternative is to take the A2 into the Blackwall Tunnel, on N.side you just keep straight on to the A12, turn N. onto A406( N.Circular road) next junction bear L. for M11 which takes you up to J27 of M25. Or, if you are not going so far North, carry continue on A12 to J28 of M25.


I know that route and have used it myself in the past when the Dartford X'ing has been snarled, but equally the Blackwall can also get snarled as a knock on effect!! you're best checking the traffic congestion on Google maps or whatever Satnav system you use before making your mind up which traffic jam to sit in..... :wink:


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## tonyt

> fatbuddha wrote:
> I know that route and have used it myself in the past when the Dartford X'ing has been snarled, but equally the Blackwall can also get snarled as a knock on effect!! you're best checking the traffic congestion on Google maps or whatever Satnav system you use before making your mind up which traffic jam to sit in..... :wink:


Or ideally, adjust your schedule so as to reach the crossing in the early hours - quiet and free.


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## fatbuddha

> Or ideally, adjust your schedule so as to reach the crossing in the early hours - quiet and free.


yes - of course - stupid me. :wink:


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## nicholsong

fatbuddha said:


> Alternative is to take the A2 into the Blackwall Tunnel, on N.side you just keep straight on to the A12, turn N. onto A406( N.Circular road) next junction bear L. for M11 which takes you up to J27 of M25. Or, if you are not going so far North, carry continue on A12 to J28 of M25.
> 
> 
> 
> I know that route and have used it myself in the past when the Dartford X'ing has been snarled, but equally the Blackwall can also get snarled as a knock on effect!! you're best checking the traffic congestion on Google maps or whatever Satnav system you use before making your mind up which traffic jam to sit in..... :wink:
Click to expand...

We were lucky our control room had all the traffic info, so we just pressed the call button and asked, but I would already have checked the Dartford info with them - we had to get passengers to airports on time so could not take risks.


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## readyforoff

tonyt said:


> The solution of course is to cross between 10pm and 6am which is, and will remain, free of charge (for the time being?)


The solution if you live in my area (Cheshire) is to go M40 and anti clock M25. Just checked and it's 13 miles longer. Not worth the mither of remembering to pay..


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## teemyob

readyforoff said:


> tonyt said:
> 
> 
> 
> The solution of course is to cross between 10pm and 6am which is, and will remain, free of charge (for the time being?)
> 
> 
> 
> The solution if you live in my area (Cheshire) is to go M40 and anti clock M25. Just checked and it's 13 miles longer. Not worth the mither of remembering to pay..
Click to expand...

As another Cheshire resident, that is the route we take. Usually quicker if slightly longer.

TM


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## nicholsong

teemyob said:


> readyforoff said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonyt said:
> 
> 
> 
> The solution of course is to cross between 10pm and 6am which is, and will remain, free of charge (for the time being?)
> 
> 
> 
> The solution if you live in my area (Cheshire) is to go M40 and anti clock M25. Just checked and it's 13 miles longer. Not worth the mither of remembering to pay..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As another Cheshire resident, that is the route we take. Usually quicker if slightly longer.
> 
> TM
Click to expand...

Trev

I agree and would always go that way; M40 is much less hassle generally than M6/M1.

Also if I am going in my own time from Cheshire I use Leek-Ashbourne-cross to A38 to join M42-M40. It is slower if M6 N.of B'Ham is uncongested(not often) but it is much prettier and more relaxing.

Geoff


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## wobby

Or, as we do, live south of the river. :lol: We almost never use that
Dreadful M25 or the Dartford crossing. Part of the reason why we resettled in East Sussex. :wink: 

Wobby


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## wp1234

divil said:


> Scrap the charge all together is what I say...bloody ridiculous thing to have!


Ditto another classic 'rip off Britain' charge .

I always go South about , might be a tad longer for me but keeps the blood pressure more stable.


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## veevee

So a person driving alone heading to the ports now has to stop somewhere, park up and pay via phone providing they can remember the number to call? Some people travel on to other areas of Europe where it may take 2 or 3 days until they have a good internet connection, by this time they have a penalty to pay too.

or

Would have to leave the motorway to find a suitable retail outlet, park up (and pay for parking?), take the time to get out of vehicle to walk somewhere and pay?

or 

Would have to set up an account with a Government agency or SANEF to pre-pay a charge they paid through the vehicle window previously for maybe 2 or 3 trips each year?


Who is benefitting from this apart from those that can only travel during peak rush hour (most have a little flexibility to avoid rush hours) and the company running the crossing becoming more profitable.

SANEF in France to not ask us to pay by the methods listed for the Dartford Crossing Co /Government, they have changed to almost exclusively automated toll booths which work like clockwork, so easy with a debit card or even cash.

Not sure that the systems being introduced are logical or even help the majority of motorists.


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## readyforoff

veevee said:


> So a person driving alone heading to the ports now has to stop somewhere, park up and pay via phone providing they can remember the number to call? Some people travel on to other areas of Europe where it may take 2 or 3 days until they have a good internet connection, by this time they have a penalty to pay too.
> 
> or
> 
> Would have to leave the motorway to find a suitable retail outlet, park up (and pay for parking?), take the time to get out of vehicle to walk somewhere and pay?
> 
> or
> 
> Would have to set up an account with a Government agency or SANEF to pre-pay a charge they paid through the vehicle window previously for maybe 2 or 3 trips each year?
> 
> Who is benefitting from this apart from those that can only travel during peak rush hour (most have a little flexibility to avoid rush hours) and the company running the crossing becoming more profitable.
> 
> SANEF in France to not ask us to pay by the methods listed for the Dartford Crossing Co /Government, they have changed to almost exclusively automated toll booths which work like clockwork, so easy with a debit card or even cash.
> 
> Not sure that the systems being introduced are logical or even help the majority of motorists.


Or stick some foreign plates on and ignore it. Trust me , they ain't going to invest in tracking anybody down for a fiver. Vignette system would cure that one. Vignette like the one I pay (VED) Overnight freebie next to go..


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## nicholsong

"Overnight freebie next to go.."

I would hope that the government have written the 'free at night' into the contract - if not there could be big protests.

Anyone know?


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## goldi

nicholsong said:


> "Overnight freebie next to go.."
> 
> I would hope that the government have written the 'free at night' into the contract - if not there could be big protests.
> 
> Anyone know?


 Morning folks,

Do,nt count on it. The goverment said the crossing would be free when paid for, it was paid for in 2003 but they continue to rake in 70 million pounds a year and the price is about to go up another 25 % in addition to the 33% price rise of two years ago.

norm


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## Tucano

Has anyone on the forum tried to pay in advance for a future journey. The reason I ask is because we will be returning from France on 1st October and hopefully using the crossing about 11am  
I have tried but failed to pay this charge, does anyone have the e-mail or tel no for this 'service'
Many thanks,
Norman.


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## sennen523

Hi All,

Like Tucano, how do you pay by on-line or Text? I have had a good look at the websites and they only seem to show you the reasons why they are doing it?

Usual c*ap UK planning and organisation.

Al.
sennen523.


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## charlieivan

nicholsong said:


> Haresby
> 
> Sorry but b*gger the Woolwich ferry.
> 
> Alternative is to take the A2 into the Blackwall Tunnel, on N.side you just keep straight on to the A12, turn N. onto A406( N.Circular road) next junction bear L. for M11 which takes you up to J27 of M25. Or, if you are not going so far North, carry continue on A12 to J28 of M25.
> 
> It is dual carriageway all the way with ( I think) not one light. At the moment it is often quicker than queuing for Dartford, whether that will change is too be seen.
> 
> When I was driving professionally I and other drivers used this route frequently.
> Geoff


Doesn't this route take you into the lez ?


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## goldi

Morning folks,

As yet I have not been able to find the prices but you have until midnight the following day to pay by Text . phone. online. local shop. or set up an account.

We too, return on the first of Oct, the very day it comes into effect, I might even go the other way round the m25 if I suspect any probs.

norm


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## olley

Anybody notice that the tolls paid for the bridge in 2003?

_Toll charges were levied at the Crossing until 2003 when the debts associated with the construction of the QEII bridge and the tunnels had been fully discharged._

Funny how they kept charging.

Ian


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## autostratus

"olley" wrote


> Anybody notice that the tolls paid for the bridge in 2003?
> 
> _Toll charges were levied at the Crossing until 2003 when the debts associated with the construction of the QEII bridge and the tunnels had been fully discharged._
> 
> Funny how they kept charging.
> 
> Ian


I had noticed that.
Once it got paid off they weren't going to let another cash cow go. What government would?

I am sorry for those who have to cross regularly but us, who use it 3 times a year it is a small price to pay in the context of the whole holiday.


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## Tucano

sennen523,

That is exactly what I was trying to say, how DO you pay as I can find nowhere that tells me how to do it.

It is bad enough coming back to the traffic problems we normally meet when returning home, and now this :roll: 

I will just have to pay within the 24 hours later, if I can get through although I feel that a very busy phone line allowing you to try to do that will result in a penalty for paying late, or am I simply being cynical, or a realist :wink: 

Norman.


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## kenny

*tolls*

After reading the web page, it seems you can open an account then you drive strait through, so if you use it a couple of times put £12 in that will last you for 6 goes if it works good ,with regard using a credit card ,we use one all the time on toll roads, never seen my card go through as fast so dont think you would make much diffrents kenny


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## fatbuddha

I really can't see why people are getting so agitated by this change - just follow the instructions on how to pay and you're good to go.

details are here - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dart-charge-dartford-crossing-remote-payment - and you can sign up for e-mails to keep you up to date with opening an account and payment procedures.

it's not unlike the Congestion Charge system in London so the methodology is well tried and tested. and anything that speeds up the flow across the Dartford Crossing has to be a good thing in my view.


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## Dougaitken

Hi

Fully agree with fatbudda.

You can currently register online for a Dart Tag which enables you to then drive straight through without having to pay. You only have to load the tag with a minimum of £10 and proivided you use it at least once a year it remains available. A Car/Motorhome gets a reduced cost of £1.33 instead of the £2 you pay at the barrier.

Anyone with a current Tag account is being contacted in September to advise what needs to be done to switch to the new system. The inference at the moment is that it will not be a significant change. We shall wait and see.

If you go to the website fatbudda suggested you can log on to receive emails which should advise you what is happening and how to set up an account.

The Crossing has been a nightmare for a long time with huge queues although I cannot recall them implimenting the Protocal that exists which says they can make the crossing free if the traffic builds up to or beyond junctions 4 or 28 and if there is an emengency.

Interestly not long ago there was a major power cut in the area and as a result the Toll Booths were shut down. The traffic flowed perfectly. We cross our fingers that is an indication of times to come.

Doug


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## nicholsong

fatbuddha said:


> I really can't see why people are getting so agitated by this change - just follow the instructions on how to pay and you're good to go.
> 
> details are here - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dart-charge-dartford-crossing-remote-payment - and you can sign up for e-mails to keep you up to date with opening an account and payment procedures.
> 
> it's not unlike the Congestion Charge system in London so the methodology is well tried and tested. and anything that speeds up the flow across the Dartford Crossing has to be a good thing in my view.


Unfortunately your link describes the payment methods that will be available but does not actually describe the payment process.

I would only be a very occasional user (2 times in 4 years?) so do not want to register for anything.

Where is the up-to-date website for paying?

Geoff


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## Dougaitken

*Dartford Toll*

Hi Nicholson

I would assume that as they are not contacting the Tag holders until September they are also not publishing the Phone numbers or Local shops etc until nearer the launch date.

I would hope the emails they issue if you register for them will detail all the methods of payment and when you can start.

Doug


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## fatbuddha

Geoff - I'd agree with Doug and just register to get the e-mail updates on when the process goes into full swing - probably during September I guess.

I'm not a big user of the crossing but will sign up for an account to save any hassle. this might also be useful if the rumours are true that the operators, SANEF, will also be rolling this system out for the peages on French autoroutes that they manage. that will also help rather than having to buy a screen tag.


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## cavs

*Go the other way round?*

It's counterintuitive, but I've found it's often quicker to go the other way round the M25. If you're going to Dover or the Channel Tunnel from the M1, the route M25, M26, M20 is only about 17 miles and 20 minutes longer than using the Dartford Crossing.

That said, if the queues at Dartford are eliminated by the new system, that option should not be necessary.


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## sennen523

Hi All, 

We are going to Northern France about the 19th October 14., but still don't know how to pay the Toll (any method). I have signed up for update emails, but have never received any to date.

Can anyone give me advice?

Al.
sennen523.


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## Darloboy

Have a look at this - should be Ok on the way out - not sure what date you are coming back but the new system starts October 26th according to this article.

There is a bit of information about payment

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/dartford/news/dartford-crossing-13512/url][/url]


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## autostratus

This information on the website is dated 2 march 2014 and is much the same as the dept of transport info of april 2014 so tells us nothing new.
We need some up to date information and if 26 october is the true date for the new system one would have thought it would already be much more publicised than we've seen up to now.


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## maewashigeri

*Free dartford crossing*

As a motorcyclist I am amazed that the government website says "Mopeds, motorcycles, motor tricycles and quadricycles will also continue to use the crossing for free" which is blatantly wrong as a moped is under 50cc and not allowed on a motorway, so unless they have removed the M25,s motorway status a moped shouldn't be there anyway.


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## pete4x4

Dartford crossing isn't part of the motorway, it stops just before the thurruck services and just after the A20?turnoff on the other side.


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## maewashigeri

Thanks for pointing out my mistake pete4x4, I have been over dozens of times and have never noticed that oops


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## rod_vw

maewashigeri said:


> Thanks for pointing out my mistake pete4x4, I have been over dozens of times and have never noticed that oops


I hope you have noticed that the speed limits through the crossing are NOT those of a motorway. If not it may be more than OOPS! Speed cameras were installed a few years back.

Rod


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## sennen523

Hi All,

We only use the Dartford crossing a couple of times a year so will pre pay the toll.

The system goes live on Sunday 30th November 2014.

It looks as though you can pre pay with www.payzone.co.uk

You can enter a postcode or place into their website to find the outlets.

Hope this helps, but I haven't tried it yet.

Al.
sennen523.


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## listerdiesel

Updated our two accounts to Dart Charge from Dart Tag today.

Set up automated top ups as well.


Peter


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