# Slipping clutch now replaced X250



## DJP

Following on from my many posts and the many 100's of posts on the Fiat X250 gearbox/clutch problems I have now had to replace the clutch on my 2 year old 12000 mile, Fiat X250 3.0ltr Motorhome at a cost in excess of £1000.00
Briefly
I reported the judder problem when the van was a week old (Nov 2008). The local Fiat technician agreed there was a problem and a case number was given.
I received a letter some time afterwards to say there is no fault with Fiat vehicles. Shortly after that that 2.3's were recalled for new gearbox/ clutch/engine mounts.
After a year of ownership I took it back to dealer, another technician tested it and again agreed there was a fault and another case number given. In the following February during a visit to NEC and the Fiat stand a further test was arranged with a Fiat UK engineer.
At the end of an extensive test the engineer stated and I quote "I do not think you have a problem" A further letter came to say vehicle was, according to Italy, free from faults. 
In September of 2010 the clutch started to slip. Further discussions and emails with Fiat UK got me no where so I asked for the case to be reported to Fiat Italy, which it was. 
In the meantime I had to have the clutch replaced at a cost of over £1000 Fiat did offer a reduction on the cost of the parts as a good will gesture, but it still cost me £1000 AND the van still judders as badly as it did before.
Am I now looking to replace the clutch every 2 years or 12000 miles and keep my fingers crossed nothing else gearbox/transmission related fails?
Today I received a reply from Fiat Italy which is below.

*Dear Sir,

Thank you for contacting us and for your interest in our Brand.
We have received your e-mail only once and we apologise for the inconvenience related.

We forwarded your complaint to our relevant departments and checked it in collaboration with Fiat UK who informed us about the answer which has been confirmed to you three times by formal mail.

Therefore we are afraid not to have anything else to add and we cannot discuss or disapprove the answer given.

We kindly invite you to refer to the previously provided communication.

However we sincerely appreciate the feedback and proposals we receive from our Customers or future ones as it allows us to provide each day better services, events and products.

Kind Regards,

Customer Relations
Fiat Group Automobiles S.p.A. *

CUSTOMER RELATIONS AT ITS WORST!

I believe people may have been silenced for whatever reason, but Fiat should not be allowed to walk all over its customers. If I was the ONLY person to complain, then it may me different but as there are so many of us, there has to be a serious problem and NOBODY cares!
Rant over
What to do next? Please answer poll


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## levoyden

I find this unbelievable and are chomping at the bit just reading it.

This is a commercial vehicle made to go round the clock 2-3 times and would expect the clutch to last at least 100,000 + miles.

I'm sure a Solicitor should be involved.

If this were mine , you would not see me for dust , on my way to Fiat UK and then Fiat Commercial Italy.................

Don't forget you have comeback on the seller (MH Company you purchased from).

Dennis


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## Sprinta

what a sorry situation to be in!

 

First of all get some sensible legal advice about how to take it forwards with the maximum impact.


(I'm not as level headed and as patient as you've been, I'd have taken someone hostage by now)


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## jud

hi d j p  i think all the fiat 160 multijets owners should get together it seams the only way they will listen people complaining in force the 2.3 multijets have had there's done same engine only bigger fiat just give you a case number to shut you up for a couple of weeks then say there's no problem i will join you solidarity :?: jud


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## scept1c

Hi DJP, this seems to be very unfair.

First, surely the vehicle is covered by a 3 year warranty on engine and gearbox, does it not include the clutch?

My 3 litre had the clutch replaced after 13 months and after 19 months, the clutch and flywheel were replaced at no cost to me.

In 45 years driving this is the first vehicle I have driven which had a burnt clutch. I have had several defensive driving courses and never had any criticism of my clutch and gear changing tecniques. After hearing of many others with clutch problems I believe the clutch is simply not designed to cope with vehicles up to at least 5 tons and I don't think it is solely due to gear ratios.

I think I would take my case to the small claims court or whichever legal avenue is most appropriate. I have successfully used the small claims court in the past and it is a very easy process. If my experience is anything to go by, I think that Fiat would be unlikely to contest your case as it would probably cost them more in the long run. I wait to see what others think.


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## Mike48

With luck you should have no more trouble but this of course does not excuse Fiat's behaviour.

I keep highlighting this text below which is relevant because the information comes from a major fleet manager who has well in excess of 150 of these vehicles and from Andy Stothert who has also been a reliable source.

You will note that the new 3 litre clutch is an upgraded version and should be trouble free. The text is here:

Quotes below from Andy Stothert and Euroserve (who has bought and operated over 150 X250's). This is what was said with apologies to those who are fed up with reading it:

_Andy Stothert

3 litre 6 speed manual models 
A Fiat employee who has been reliable throughout this debacle has stated that since mid 2009 the clutch lining spec has been changed to lessen or remove the tendency for the clutch to overheat too readily when reversed in extreme circumstances and slipping the clutch to control the speed of the vehicle. This does seem to backed up by a lack of 3 litre models which have incinerated their clutches recently.

Euroserve

I can confirm what Andy said regarding upgraded clutches for the 3.0 engine. There are two part numbers listed and the change happened in November 2008. If you try to order the earlier one it will be superceded by the late one so it is an upgrade. The good news is that you can order a 'reconditioned' clutch kit for the 3.0 vans which you cannot get for any of the others; it will save you over £100 if you ever have to replace one outside warranty. It's part number 71793642..........Don't get ripped off by Fiat dealers; always ask if there is a reconditioned item listed for whatever you need.

I can confirm also that there have still been no modifications to the gearboxes of 3.0 vans at all, and that the clutch used in the Manual and comfort-matics is exactly the same, so will be of the later design if produced after November 2008 whichever gearbox it has. Have to say that my comfort-matic was built in May 2008 so has the old type and has been trouble free_


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## smick

I think that you have been treated very poorly, and sympathise with your predicament.

Like the others, I think that Fiat's behaviour on this issue is outrageous, and needs exposing through the national press, Watchdog, or anywhere else that will listen and publicise it. There are enough cases to show that whatever fixes they have authorised have not worked, and that the set up is not "fit for purpose".

Equally, it is facile for manufacturers of conversions to wash their hands and say, "It isn't our fault, we just build on them." Let's face it, you only have to look back through the posts on scuttlegate etc, to know that Fiat lie through their teeth as soon as an allegation is made about any fault, rather than saying that they will investigate it.

HOWEVER...while people go on buying them, then the problem will continue, and as the market is swamped with the things, it's hard to see any change occurring. I've had two Sevels in my motorhoming career (One Fiat, one Peugeot) and they were both rubbish.

All we can do is spread the word. If people continue to buy them, then the rule of "Caveat Emptor"applies - at least they knew they were potentially buying trouble.


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## ICDSUN

DJP

This may well be worth approaching on the following, your dealer has knowingly sold a vehicle with a defect/fault/characteristic of issues with the clutch and transmission, this information was in the public domain at the time of supply, he no doubt did not inform you of this issue when you purchased the vehicle from him, he should pay the bill and seek recompence from Fiat.

A vehicle should be fit for purpose and with such a short life on your clutch the onus is on the supplier not Fiat to provide proof that you have caused the fatal damage to the clutch face plates causing the slippage, your contract is with your supplier not Fiat, you have explored that avenue and been rejected, what has your dealer done with regard to resolving this defective motorhome he has sold you, he is the one that has made the most from this deal

As others have found Fiat are not rolling over on the 3 litres however your dealer is the one that took your cash, chase him not Fiat is my advice

The dealers are not innocent in this sorry saga, despite their protestations about it being a Fiat issue, they have stood and let us fight our own battles, very few have done anything to get a fix done on the defective vehicles they took the money for, and all continued to sell these vehicles.

My dealer Cotswold Motorhomes was one of the few that offered support and help, sadly they are in a very small minority

Chris


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## Mrplodd

Items that can wear out such as brake linings AND clutches are specifically excluded from all new vehicle warranties as the manufacturers can have no control over how an individual vehicle is driven.

I am not doubting your word in respect of anything you have said about the faults you have had or your manner of driving HOWEVER I would counsel you in the strongest possible terms to seek EXPERT (i.e. a Motor vehicle specialist law firm) advice before you embnark on any legal action. Dont forget if you are unsuccessful YOU will have to pay Fiat's costs !!

I amj NOT saying dont do it, just make sure you are likely to win the battle before you take up your cudgle (and GOOD LUCK as sadly I feel you are going to have a long and expensive struggle to get this matter resolved to YOUR satisfaction)


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## DJP

Thanks for all your tips. In one of my conversations with Fiat UK they suggested I could take them to court. They advised me to get the vehicle tested by an independant engineer and send my complaint with the report to a solicitor and the SMMT. When I asked for the "bench marK" to measure the judder against. At what point is the judder unacceptable or in their terms "outside the operating perameters" they would not tell me. It is a Fiat internal document.
So what is acceptable to one person, may not be to another, i.e. ME, 2 local Fiat technicians and a Fiat UK enginner who "Does not think there is a problem". But how can you measure it? Fiat obviously know I cannot take them on, in a court of law finacially. Will anyone want to know some 2 years down the road? I doubt it.
I will write to press etc. and see what comes of it, but I am not holding much hope.


> Euroserve
> 
> I can confirm what Andy said regarding upgraded clutches for the 3.0 engine. There are two part numbers listed and the change happened in November 2008. If you try to order the earlier one it will be superceded by the late one so it is an upgrade. The good news is that you can order a 'reconditioned' clutch kit for the 3.0 vans which you cannot get for any of the others; it will save you over £100 if you ever have to replace one outside warranty. It's part number 71793642..........Don't get ripped off by Fiat dealers; always ask if there is a reconditioned item listed for whatever you need.


I have had a recon clutch fitted which was £5.49 more EXPENSIVE exc. vat. Than new!
Cost of recon clutch kit, flywheel, bolts and a nut £570.00 + VAT (NO slave fitted).
Cost of same parts NEW £564.51

Just one other word of advice
IF you are thinking about changing your current van for a newer model say 2007on with a Fiat 3.0 ltr engine. TAKE IT FOR A TEST DRIVE ON THE MOTORWAY. Drive at 55mph in 5th and floor the throttle, watch the rev counter. If it shoots round without any increase in speed, the clutch is slipping.
I know of another van with the same slipping clutch problem I had. It is currently be nursed along until the owner takes delivery of his new van in March. Then it will be on the used forecourt. Mine had covered 12000 miles the other van has covered 15000 miles. BEWARE of this and others. They will be around. *You have been warned.*


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## Telbell

Sorry to hear of all your issues DJP- but of course those of us who have followed the Fiat saga from the start will not be in the least surprised.

It's a tricky one.....my gut reaction is for Small Claims Court but to be sure of success you'd need the evidence...including someone from Fiat (or an "expert" ) verifying that the Company modified the clutch subsequent to your model's manufacture.

The Warranty pointed out by Mr PLodd does not affect the Sales/supply of Goods Act of Course. It's ok for Fiat to limit the Warranty om the grounds of "you don't how the vehicle is handled/mishandled" but on that argument couldn't any manufacturer limit a Warranty on goods by saying the same thing.

In the first instance I'd be tempted to chat with a Trading Standards expert who knows their stuff.

My feeling is that if Fiat wanted to challenge your claim on "merchantable quality" it would be for THEM to prove you have misused the vehicle, not the other way round.

I'm sure with a bit of time and effort you could find (on forums eg)any number of Fiat 3 litre owners who have had new clutches to provide a short statement to that effect- they can't ALL have misused clutches!

So- cheap advice from Trading Standards first???

(Mine's june 08 and 19000 miles-crossing fingers and everything!)

PS- No doubt some MHF members would make statements on your behalf-especially those who have had modifications done without charge (eg sept1C)....a precedent set???


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## Jezport

Suggestion. 

Get trading standards involved.


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## tviall

Tread carefully would also be my advice. I would be more than annoyed (putting it mildly!) if I were in your shoes but I would be cautious when starting a full legal battle without some backup. As someone said, if you lose you pay. Hopefully the new (modified?)clutch will last longer than the original so hopefully the situation won't repeat itself.

Me, I drive a late 2008 3.0ltr model with just short of 10,000 miles on the clock. No judder or clutch slip yet. Fingers and every other appendage crossed!!!

Tony


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## erneboy

A sad story and all too common with the 3 litre.

I can't see a small claims action being of any use as all you could be do there is claim the cost of the new clutch. Fiat would simply say it's not covered under warranty, you drove badly and if it was faulty they would know because they would have had to help other customers in a similar position.

To win you will need to prove that your vehicle has a judder, small claims won't consider that. To prove judder and that the judder is causing clutch failures you need independent help and then probably to have reject the vehicle as unfit for purpose. That is a long hard road but possibly winnable. If you do that you will have to reject the vehicle by returning it to the dealer. You will then have no van till a settlement is reached. That could take a very long time.

I have little doubt that a few people have done that. The trouble is that Fiat may settle with the determined few and in doing so put a gagging clause in the deal. "While we do not agree that your vehicle is faulty we are prepared, as a gesture of goodwill, to offer you the sum of x in full and final settlement." By doing this they are spending some money to buy the determined people off. They know the rest will go away. This option is far cheaper for them than finding and implementing a solution on all the faulty 3 litre vans. It was not an option on the 2.3 variant as there were just such a huge number of those and the fault was attracting the attention of the motoring press. There are comparatively few 3 litre vans and the problem can be managed by denying that it exists.

Sorry but that is how I see it and how it has played so far.

My opinion is that it isn't worth the aggro. Fiat are being totally dishonest in this matter and it is important that people are made aware of their attitude. The only way to attract their attention is to keep giving them bad publicity. This issue is all but dead now, but if a similar thing happened on a new Fiat they have gained experience on how to manage it and you can bet your bottom dollar that they would do the same thing again, only more efficiently. 

Fiat are not to be trusted, just like most other big companies, Alan.


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## karlb

if a new vehicle is defective/not fit for purpose why dosnt it get returnd to the supplying dealer? am i missing something?
it wouldnt look good left on there forecourt.


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## erneboy

You are quite right Karl. If an owner has the determination, is able to pay for independent professional help and is willing to do without a van for what might turn out to be a very long time that is the way to go, as I said in my post above, Alan.


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## karlb

erneboy said:


> You are quite right Karl. If an owner has the determination, is able to pay for independent professional help and is willing to do without a van for what might turn out to be a very long time that is the way to go, as I said in my post above, Alan.


sorry for any confusion Alan, i mean the motorhome dealer, how can they get away selling defective stock!
this motorhome buisness seem almost corrupt.


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## erneboy

Thanks Karl. I have thought about doing this myself as mine judders badly.

Let's say I drop my van off at the dealer and refuse to take it back because I think it is defective. The dealer contacts the converter and they contact Fiat. Fiat test the van and say it's not faulty, which is what they say about all the 3 litre vans. What happens next? I would have to be willing to engage specialist help and Trading Standards to force Fiat to recognise the fault, wouldn't I? I can't think of an alternative scenario. Regards, Alan.


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## Telbell

> this motorhome buisness seem almost corrupt.


and as we've said many times before, the Converters have much to answer for in their unwillingness to pessurise Fiat.


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## karlb

erneboy said:


> Thanks Karl. I have thought about doing this myself as mine judders badly.
> 
> Let's say I drop my van off at the dealer and refuse to take it back because I think it is defective. The dealer contacts the converter and they contact Fiat. Fiat test the van and say it's not faulty, which is what they say about all the 3 litre vans. What happens next? I would have to be willing to engage specialist help and Trading Standards to force Fiat to recognise the fault, wouldn't I? I can't think of an alternative scenario. Regards, Alan.


a rock and a hard place springs to mind  
however i do think more problems/anger need to be directed towards the supplying dealer, and make them fill there obligations.
good luck with your clutch.

regards karlb


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## tude

*clutch*

hi has anybody on here seen the fiat proffesional web site ? if you read it it says fiat has the perfect vehicle for motorhomes and says its 3 litre engine coupled to a six speed gearbox with ratios specialy designed for motorhomes . i too have had a issue mine seems to vibrate when reversing uphill but it goes when revs are above 1500 rpm. when fiat saw mine 2wks ago mechanic said mines good enough . tude


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## DJP

> i too have had a issue mine seems to vibrate when reversing uphill but it goes when revs are above 1500 rpm. when fiat saw mine 2wks ago mechanic said mines good enough


Hi
It will go away at 1500rpm, but at that level of revs you have got to slip the clutch, unless you are prepared to reverse at a pretty high speed (for reversing in a tight space). That was my point. I was told to slip the clutch by a Fiat UK engineer to overcome the judder. I did state that I did not agree that I could overcome one problem without creating another. A slipping clutch! I am sorry to say the mechanic who said yours was good enough is probably just following the official Fiat well used line.


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## erneboy

Having had mine at three Fiat dealers, one in the UK, one in Germany and one in Spain it is quite clear to me that Fiat have issued dealers with a script to be repeated like a mantra when 3 litre owners complain. What was striking was that both the garage in the UK and the one in Germany originally agreed that my van was faulty, however a short while later they changed their tune. I wonder why? 

As to slipping the clutch, that might be fine as long as it's only for a short time because as far as I can tell the clutch eventually faile due to overheating. I saw the friction plate which came out of mine, there was plenty of lining on it. By comparison to the new one it was barely worn at all, but it was badly discoloured due to having been overheated. So slipping the clutch may reduce the judder but it will probably knacker the clutch. The problem seems to be that the DMF heats up very quickly and does not dissipate heat well, a kind of cooking circle in my opinion, Alan.


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## DJP

> As to slipping the clutch, that might be fine as long as it's only for a short time because as far as I can tell the clutch eventually faile due to overheating. I saw the friction plate which came out of mine, there was plenty of lining on it. By comparison to the new one it was barely worn at all, but it was badly discoloured due to having been overheated. So slipping the clutch may reduce the judder but it will probably knacker the clutch. The problem seems to be that the DMF heats up very quickly and does not dissipate heat well, a kind of cooking circle in my opinion, Alan.


That is exactly what happened to my clutch. No wear, just a glazed effect which was also apparent on the flywheel, hence the slip under load. I could not make it slip at low speed or in lower gears or when cold. It got worse the warmer it became, which was also a little odd as it was on motorways it was more worse when the use of clutch is virtually non existant. I was driving north on the M5 just passing junction 21 Clevedon in cruise control at 58mph when the rev counter started going up and down by 500rpm and with no increase in speed clearly indicated the problem.


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## erneboy

Yes mine was the same, not slipping in low gears only in higher gears under load, Alan.


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## Booty

Probably no help, but I have exactly the same symptoms with my 2.3l. At around 60mph and 2500 rpm (with the cruise control on) the revs occasionally increase to 3000 and then drops back.

Completely foxed my local dealers but thankfully, Fiat have immediately agreed to carrying out the mods including new clutch. Many thanks to all those that have gone before.

It's a very odd way for a clutch to slip and might be of help to show that it is not caused by 'normal' wear.


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## carolgavin

Couple or three things!

1. It is not illegal to sell something with a known/implied defect.

2. Under absolutely NO I repeat NO circumstances ever ever ever reject your vehicle by leaving it with the dealer even with a letter of rejection. This is absolutely the wrong thing to do and the reality is the dealer will leave your vehicle rotting in their forecourt as you need to LEGALLY reject it. They are under no obligation to inform anyone converter and /or manufacturer. YOU retain title and lawyer (yes you will need one) pursues on your behalf.

3. It matters not a jot how many people have/had the defect you are complaining about as if it gets as far as court the judge is not going to be interested in other vehicles as they will concentrate only on yours. Don't waste your time gathering evidence of this sort.

Check your home insurance or if you are with caravan club for legal cover and make use of that. Use Trading standards for preliminary advice but they will only take things so far for you. Ask yourself if you are willing to lose use of your vehicle for the X number of years it could take.

Best advice I can offer under the circumstances is pursue Fiat for a goodwill/ex gratia payment if you have not done so already. I know that this is probably not what you want to hear but its by far the easiest option although probably not the most satisfatory!!
Good luck!


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## jud

:evil: hi all the problem with the fiat x250 is the first and reverse gears are to fast so in reverse you can't let your clutch out all the way unless it's a straight run which for safety reasons is impossible to do so you slip the clutch and because of the extra weight the clutch over heats this running gear is for a van not m/h coming in at 5,000kgs a clutch will soon burn out just think of a ducato van and put 3,000kgs in the back of it :lol: it would drop to it's knees  i have had 3 x250 m/h's a van conversion 120 b.h.p no judder but reversed to fast the next dakota 160.b.h.p no judder but again reversed to fast and cheyenne 160/192 b.h.p judders a bit when driving up blocks no clutch smell or slip yet 8'000miles fingers crossed they all seem to be different .i new before i bought my first x250 about the problems and insisting on a drive before i accepted the m/h's. any mechanic that tells you you to slip the clutch or use 1500rpm when letting the clutch out needs to be stood in front of a wall and shot :evil: and that goes with any vehicle


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## DJP

> Euroserve
> 
> I can confirm what Andy said regarding upgraded clutches for the 3.0 engine. There are two part numbers listed and the change happened in November 2008. If you try to order the earlier one it will be superceded by the late one so it is an upgrade. *The good news is that you can order a 'reconditioned' clutch kit for the 3.0 vans which you cannot get for any of the others; it will save you over £100 *if you ever have to replace one outside warranty. It's part number 71793642..........Don't get ripped off by Fiat dealers; always ask if there is a reconditioned item listed for whatever you need.


When I queried the cost of the parts used to replace my clutch, this was the reply.

_I have checked on the Fiat website regarding thew query with the parts prices. The flywheel cost for the reconditioned part on the flywheel is listed as more expensive, £458.83 Including VAT for the recon part and £436.98 including VAT for the listed new part. As you can appreciate we do not set Fiat`s parts prices._

The clutch kit cost me £177.65 + vat for a recon unit which may be slightly cheaper than a new unit. For the complete set up recon, is MORE expensive than new. Very odd, but there again it is Fiat!


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## andos679

*Inadequate clutch spec*

After some conversations with LUK who supply OE to Fiat, it is looking that the clutch has been specced with too little a safety margin built in. The OE clutch is 250mm with maximum capacity of 154 to 158 bhp.and when asked about the size of vehicle it would be suitable for weight wise, 6000kg was NOT recommended ! These lines of enquiry are being followed up by a well known dealer and will post any updates soon.


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