# Van advice...does size really matter?



## to6y

Hi Guys & Girls

We have a crazy idea and are in need of advice...some will probably say counselling!

Myself, my wife, two kids (aged seven & five) and a labrador plan to head off around Europe (Roughly: UK > Scandinavia > Eastern Europe > Greece > Turkey > Tunisia > Italy > France > Spain > Morocco > Portugal > Spain > France > UK ) in July of this year. Returning to MOT, service etc the van 12 months later and then assuming we liked the lifestyle, head off immediately for another year (subsequent years we would highlight a smaller area that we enjoyed in year one and do in more detail, 12 months in Spain, Portugal and Morocco for example).

We plan on "wild" camping (or free/cheap Aires) for roughly 5 days each week.

I plan to work for ~20 hours a week, flexible hours some days more, some days less, mainly from the van (if kids out & we have internet) or from internet cafe. I need internet to work...which I plan on getting using a combination of 3/4G and wifi in van...I am hoping even in more out of the way places I'd get this most of the time!

We have almost decided that we want to get as large a motorhome as possible. Perhaps the Dethleffs XXL A9800:

over cab double...this gives a permanent flat usable space that doesn't prevent the sitting/dining area from being used at the same time
large sitting area with table
large kitchen
pretty large bathroom
permanent high double at back (for kids)...again gives a usable space to play on. We would have considered two singles at the back as well.
what looks like easy access into the garage by removing the stairs to the rear bed. We plan on building a bedroom for our dog into the middle of the garage (for sleeping in, not travelling in...he would never be locked in and will always have access to the main body of the motorhome)...this should still allow us to access the garage from either side from the outside.
~1500kg payload 
able to pull ~1250kg trailer if we need it to.

As I say, we have almost decided on a large van...but are undecided whether we should pull a car on trailer as well or perhaps get a smaller van, so basically:

*Option One*

Buy a large motorhome, something like Dethleffs XXL A9800 and trailer, little car and a scooter
Move ~100 miles every other day.
Park van then use car to visit local area

*Option Two*

Buy a large motorhome, something like Dethleffs XXL A9800 and a scooter
Move ~100 miles every other day.
Park van then use bicycles, foot and public transport to visit local area

*Option Three*

Buy a smaller motorhome, something like Dethleffs Globebus i15 and a scooter
Move ~50 miles most days.
Use van to visit local area and park anywhere

===

We worry with:
Option 1, we will be limited on where we can park
Option 2, we will be a little limited on where we can park but more importantly it will drive us crazy getting around the local area on bicycles, foot and public transport for 12+ months
Option 3, the motorhome will be too small to live in for 12+ months

All advice greatly received...many thanks in anticipation

Best wishes

Toby


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## Stanner

Size does matter - it matters what licence you have.

What date did you pass your test on?

https://www.gov.uk/old-driving-licence-categories


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## to6y

Stanner said:


> Size does matter - it matters what licence you have.
> 
> What date did you pass your test on?
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/old-driving-licence-categories


I have C1E, so can drive a larger setup. My wife however could only drive up to 3.5 tonne but if we did stay out for subsequent years would probably end up taking her C class test.


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## Ozzyjohn

I've no experience of full-time occupation of ours - the longest we've managed was a few four week stints with three (6ft) teenage boys. At that level it gets crowded inside if the weather is inclement  - but the quality of the fixtures and fittings remains fantastic (we bought ours at just over two years old and have had it for almost six years now). 

I also like the ability to step through into the cab area and then slide the solid door across - a little haven of peace and quiet .

They are truly great vans - I wish we had the free time to use ours more.


Regards,
John


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## to6y

Ozzyjohn said:


> I've no experience of full-time occupation of ours - the longest we've managed was a few four week stints with three (6ft) teenage boys. At that level it gets crowded inside if the weather is inclement  - but the quality of the fixtures and fittings remains fantastic (we bought ours at just over two years old and have had it for almost six years now).
> 
> I also like the ability to step through into the cab area and then slide the solid door across - a little haven of peace and quiet .
> 
> They are truly great vans - I wish we had the free time to use ours more.
> 
> Regards,
> John


Thanks for replying, do you move around much or stay in the same place for several days/weeks at a time...do you find the size limits access to places?


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## Ozzyjohn

to6y said:


> . . . do you move around much or stay in the same place for several days/weeks at a time...do you find the size limits access to places?


We've done both over the years - when the boys were still holidaying with us we tended to stay at one place for anything up to a week or even ten days - but now it tends to be just the two of us (most of the time), we tend to move a bit more often. Less time at formal campsites these days.

Size can be limiting on some French Aires - but there is usually an alternative nearby that has space. We got used to the idea that turning up at peak times to potentially crowded tourist spots might not be a great idea - but parking can usually be found within cycling distance of most places we've ever wanted to go to.

We've never had anything smaller to compare - so it's "normal" to us 

Regards,
John


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## StephandJohn

I can't help much but we (two) of us lived full time in our van for 3 years. we didn't tow a car but I think in your situation with the children you'd need one. we stayed put sometimes for 3 or 4 weeks if we really liked where we were.
I don't think you mention an awning. Many people kit it out as an outside kitchen (very good in the heat) and sitting area at all times of the year. You can put a heater inside on colder days. The children can play in it as well if its raining.


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## nicholsong

Toby

Your post has seriously interested me because it contains a lot of elements that are coincidental with our longer term plans.

We also have a MH similar to what you describe - ours is a N+B Arto 7m, overcab bed, fixed rear bed over garage etc.

You have obviously given this project some considerable thought and defined some options.

I have some views about possible answers to your questions, but in order to provide those may I ask a few questions to you first - it may be a distillation process for both of yourselves and ourselves.

Can I assume there is a considerable budget? 

When you talk about visiting 'local area' does that involve big cities or smaller towns? 

Is your C1+E based on having passed a C1+E test, or on pre-1997 'Grandfather' rights with a 107 code restriction of 8250kg Train Weight? I ask because to get 1500kg payload and to tow a car will probably be impossible within that restriction - check your licence.

Parking on Aires would be a problem with a trailer, but have you considered, as I have, the possibility of towing a car on a trailer but with a towbar on the car - so that when parked on an Aire one could use the car to tow the trailer to another parking place, either on the Aire or nearby?

Some initial comments prior to your answers,

I think a larger MH will be the answer. 

To get 1500kg payload, which you probably will need for 4 of you plus dog, you may be looking only at the lorry-chassis based versions(Iveco, Mercedes, MAN etc.). I think eventually we might end up with the same - even for two of us.

I look forward to continuing this discussion for both our benefits and if there is anything which is personal we can do it via PM.

Cheers for now.

Geoff


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## to6y

Ozzyjohn said:


> We've done both over the years - when the boys were still holidaying with us we tended to stay at one place for anything up to a week or even ten days - but now it tends to be just the two of us (most of the time), we tend to move a bit more often. Less time at formal campsites these days.
> 
> Size can be limiting on some French Aires - but there is usually an alternative nearby that has space. We got used to the idea that turning up at peak times to potentially crowded tourist spots might not be a great idea - but parking can usually be found within cycling distance of most places we've ever wanted to go to.
> 
> We've never had anything smaller to compare - so it's "normal" to us
> 
> Regards,
> John


Thanks John, our take was basically in July/August we would try and avoid the areas we thought likely to be busy i.e. Scandinavia in mid-summer, heading to the Med for later summer and into Autumn.

Hopefully this will prevent any headaches finding somewhere to park last minute!


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## to6y

StephandJohn said:


> I can't help much but we (two) of us lived full time in our van for 3 years. we didn't tow a car but I think in your situation with the children you'd need one. we stayed put sometimes for 3 or 4 weeks if we really liked where we were.
> I don't think you mention an awning. Many people kit it out as an outside kitchen (very good in the heat) and sitting area at all times of the year. You can put a heater inside on colder days. The children can play in it as well if its raining.


Thanks so much for replying.

Re Car...we are stuck on this. I think we will probably start without and add after 2 months if we find we have to...but who knows at the moment!

Re Awning...we will have an awning with us (if we have room/weight allowance) but as we plan on moving pretty regularly (at least for the first year) I have a feeling we wont be using to much.


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## erneboy

Does size matter? It's an interesting question, and one which crops up quite frequently.

The answers generally divide into two camps. 

Those who've had or have big vans generally say that size isn't much of a problem for them.

Those who've only had small vans generally say that anything much bigger than theirs would present difficulties in numerous ways and that small is the best way to go.


I'm in the big camp for several reasons. 
1. We have have had several big vans and not had any insurmountable problems.
2. The extra space (as compared to our first two vans which were small) makes a huge difference.
And 3. When making the decision to move up in size I was able to read actual accounts of what that would entail from people who already had big vans, as opposed to the supposed objections offered by those who hadn't had them and were giving opinions based upon what they thought the drawbacks might be, Alan.


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## coppo

But there are those who have had both big and smaller vans and still prefer the smaller ones.


What do you call big/small though. 10metre, 9, 8, 7?


No more than 8 metres for me, plenty big enough. That would still be a huge van to some though,


Paul.


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## to6y

nicholsong said:


> Toby
> 
> Your post has seriously interested me because it contains a lot of elements that are coincidental with our longer term plans.
> 
> We also have a MH similar to what you describe - ours is a N+B Arto 7m, overcab bed, fixed rear bed over garage etc.
> 
> You have obviously given this project some considerable thought and defined some options.


Had a few late nights researching it...followed by long conversations with my wife. I'd say we tweak our plans most days 



nicholsong said:


> I have some views about possible answers to your questions, but in order to provide those may I ask a few questions to you first - it may be a distillation process for both of yourselves and ourselves.
> 
> Can I assume there is a considerable budget?


Not keen to spend more than £50,000 on setup initially.



nicholsong said:


> When you talk about visiting 'local area' does that involve big cities or smaller towns?


Both



nicholsong said:


> Is your C1+E based on having passed a C1+E test, or on pre-1997 'Grandfather' rights with a 107 code restriction of 8250kg Train Weight? I ask because to get 1500kg payload and to tow a car will probably be impossible within that restriction - check your licence.


Pre 1997, Dethleffs XXL A9800 has a max weight of 6700kg, trailer, Peugeot 107*, scooter will be 1250kg bringing the total train weight to 7950kg.

* perhaps not as there seem to be issues adding a towbar legally?!?!?



nicholsong said:


> Parking on Aires would be a problem with a trailer, but have you considered, as I have, the possibility of towing a car on a trailer but with a towbar on the car - so that when parked on an Aire one could use the car to tow the trailer to another parking place, either on the Aire or nearby?


Exactly my plan, but it is hassle factor vs convenience.



nicholsong said:


> Some initial comments prior to your answers,
> 
> I think a larger MH will be the answer.
> 
> To get 1500kg payload, which you probably will need for 4 of you plus dog, you may be looking only at the lorry-chassis based versions(Iveco, Mercedes, MAN etc.). I think eventually we might end up with the same - even for two of us.


Iveco is the chassis I have been going for.



nicholsong said:


> I look forward to continuing this discussion for both our benefits and if there is anything which is personal we can do it via PM.
> 
> Cheers for now.
> 
> Geoff


So do I, thanks for replying


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## erneboy

coppo said:


> But there are those who have had both big and smaller vans and still prefer the smaller ones.
> 
> What do you call big/small though. 10metre, 9, 8, 7?
> 
> No more than 8 metres for me, plenty big enough. That would still be a huge van to some though,
> 
> Paul.


I did say generally Paul.


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## to6y

Basically my take so far is we don't need a car, because:


big city we would park on outskirts and therefore a car to get into centre would be useful (although not essential as we could get the bus)
town and aire we would be able to park somewhere within walking distance of centre therefore car would just be a hassle to find large enough parking space
lake in Norway, parking would be easy even with trailer for car...but don't need the car
busy beach in Greece, parking would be more difficult with trailer...and we wouldn't need car again

Having said that, keeping the kids entertained and learning is key to this whole project and the reason I keep returning to towing a car.

For example, we park somewhere in outskirts of an Austrian town and use car to drive to salt mine ~5 miles away or we're in northern France at a village aire and would like to visit the war graves, again a car would be so useful etc etc

I changed my mind again, we'll take one!!!


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## rosalan

My thoughts would be to consider the worst scenario, kids stuck in the van with non-stop rain and cold wind. Assuming that you are needing to work inside the van, space under these conditions is important.
Not buying a car and trailer at this time, seems logical.... buy what becomes necessary, if it becomes necessary.
To allow parking away from nearby shops could be overcome with either a scooter or electric bikes which work for us.
The other option, which I would not favour, is an American RV. Not favoured because of width and length in Aires. There are however a few new vans on the market with pull-out sides that could be another consideration.
Good luck.... I am just envious.


Alan


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## nicholsong

Toby

Thank you for your reply and for taking thed iscussion on.

You seem to have more or less settled on something around 8m (can't find dimensions for the A9800 but looks over 8m)

The decisions so far spoken about seem to revolve around the car/scooter/trailer.

Your for/against points re the car seem to be well thought out. What did not come from your reasoning was how often you might be in the 'We need a car' situation', e.g you mentioned visiting the war graves - I am sure there is parking and if you were on a site at the time you could return there. You also listed a lot of places where you might want to go where you think you will not need a car and foget 'crowded beaches' in Greece, because there are loads of deserted ones where I would happily take a MH but not with a trailer and car. The point I am coming to is what % of places will you need it? From what you have said about your planned lifestyle, I am guessing less than 5%.

You mention the legality of a towbar and I assume you mean an 'A'-Frame attached directly to the car. It does seem to be a problem in Spain so forget that option. Towbar for a trailer is no problem (except, see below on overhang)

You mention Norway. Lovely country. Fjords running deep inland - drive round or ferry across? Ferry - expensive, + trailer - very expensive. You could leave the trailer and car in Germany.

If you did not take a trailer/car you could hire when near a town, or taxi. The cost comes out of the other savings.

I am going to take a break here from what may seem to be negative comments but are only points for consideration which you have not mentioned.

From what you have posted so far and the thought that you have put into it before even coming on here, leads me to believe that you are going to have a great time doing it and I am f...ing jealous that we are not ahead of you(Basia.s elderly Mother is the reason).

Now back to business - and it is serious business to choose the right MH and other transport options. I took 4 years, but i was working at the time.

Toby, you have mntioned the particular Dethleffs and I looked at it on the web.

A few considerations for you to think about:-

Are you sure you want a 'C' Class? The reason I ask is that an 'A' Class has a bigger feeling of space and a much higher/wider windscreen, which not only gives a better view of the mountains but also allows more light inside when parked. Th e screen will accumulate more condensation but there are solutions.

The Dethleffs you mention appears to have a fixed partition rear of the cab seats. This is unusual as most MHs have swivel seats that form part of the living area when parked and reduce the need for extra seating and therefore the length of the vehicle.

Another factor on that model, probably as a result of my point above is that it has a huge overhang rear of the back axle - ours is big but not that big - it gives grounding problems on steep slopes and ferries and 'outswing' problems in a tight turn.

You have not mentioned whether you are cosidering RHD or LHD.

Is the budget you mention for everything - MH. trailer. car/scooter?

If you did decide to accept LHD there are lots of high-quality MHs(both 'A' and 'C' class available in Belgium, Holland and partcularly Germany(see website mobil.de and should be available in your budget. There are of course registration problems, but not if you have a friend who will allow you to use a continental address.

I may have other thoughts but have to go now and anyway I have wittered on long enough. Apologies, no time to proofread.

Cheers

Geoff


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## to6y

nicholsong said:


> Toby
> 
> Thank you for your reply and for taking thed iscussion on.
> 
> You seem to have more or less settled on something around 8m (can't find dimensions for the A9800 but looks over 8m)


It is 8460mm



nicholsong said:


> The decisions so far spoken about seem to revolve around the car/scooter/trailer.
> 
> Your for/against points re the car seem to be well thought out. What did not come from your reasoning was how often you might be in the 'We need a car' situation', e.g you mentioned visiting the war graves - I am sure there is parking and if you were on a site at the time you could return there. You also listed a lot of places where you might want to go where you think you will not need a car and foget 'crowded beaches' in Greece, because there are loads of deserted ones where I would happily take a MH but not with a trailer and car. The point I am coming to is what % of places will you need it? From what you have said about your planned lifestyle, I am guessing less than 5%.


This is the really big question I need as much advice on as possible...to tow or not to tow.

For a couple, I'd suggest no to tow almost immediately.

But we have two young children that need educating and therefore really must have the flexibility to go places. No point getting close and then thinking it is too difficult/hard/time-consuming etc etc to go and see xxxx.

Keeps coming back to flexibility vs hassle.



nicholsong said:


> You mention the legality of a towbar and I assume you mean an 'A'-Frame attached directly to the car. It does seem to be a problem in Spain so forget that option. Towbar for a trailer is no problem (except, see below on overhang)


I mean legal issues with adding a towbar to the Peugeot 107 in particular.



nicholsong said:


> You mention Norway. Lovely country. Fjords running deep inland - drive round or ferry across? Ferry - expensive, + trailer - very expensive. You could leave the trailer and car in Germany.
> 
> If you did not take a trailer/car you could hire when near a town, or taxi. The cost comes out of the other savings.


WE have considered using a taxi where necessary but going back to my Austrian salt mine example...will need quite a lot of planning to find somewhere to park, find local taxi number, explain where we are, where we want to go, then again on way back.



nicholsong said:


> I am going to take a break here from what may seem to be negative comments but are only points for consideration which you have not mentioned.
> 
> From what you have posted so far and the thought that you have put into it before even coming on here, leads me to believe that you are going to have a great time doing it and I am f...ing jealous that we are not ahead of you(Basia.s elderly Mother is the reason).
> 
> Now back to business - and it is serious business to choose the right MH and other transport options. I took 4 years, but i was working at the time.
> 
> Toby, you have mntioned the particular Dethleffs and I looked at it on the web.
> 
> A few considerations for you to think about:-
> 
> Are you sure you want a 'C' Class? The reason I ask is that an 'A' Class has a bigger feeling of space and a much higher/wider windscreen, which not only gives a better view of the mountains but also allows more light inside when parked. Th e screen will accumulate more condensation but there are solutions.


We wanted the extra useable space of having a permanent bed over cab, which you don't get in an 'A' class.



nicholsong said:


> The Dethleffs you mention appears to have a fixed partition rear of the cab seats. This is unusual as most MHs have swivel seats that form part of the living area when parked and reduce the need for extra seating and therefore the length of the vehicle.


Again, this was a deliberate decision. We wanted both front and rear facing dinette table so that both kids and my wife could sit at table doing something while we are driving.



nicholsong said:


> Another factor on that model, probably as a result of my point above is that it has a huge overhang rear of the back axle - ours is big but not that big - it gives grounding problems on steep slopes and ferries and 'outswing' problems in a tight turn.


I was looking at ground clearance only last night, frankly I don't think there is necessarily a solution...if Ferraris manage I guess we will!



nicholsong said:


> You have not mentioned whether you are cosidering RHD or LHD.


LHD, probably via Germany.



nicholsong said:


> Is the budget you mention for everything - MH. trailer. car/scooter?


Just the motorhome + any extras (awning, sat, air con etc) to install onto it. Not trailer, car or scooter...or contents.



nicholsong said:


> If you did decide to accept LHD there are lots of high-quality MHs(both 'A' and 'C' class available in Belgium, Holland and partcularly Germany(see website mobil.de and should be available in your budget. There are of course registration problems, but not if you have a friend who will allow you to use a continental address.


I was planning on using Nick from Bundesvan to source a van in Germany and bring it back and then register it in the UK.

My parents do live in the south of France so did quickly consider registering it there however the French do tend to like paperwork so decided against it. Perhaps I'll do a little more research specifically about this. I do have friends/business contacts living in most European countries!



nicholsong said:


> I may have other thoughts but have to go now and anyway I have wittered on long enough. Apologies, no time to proofread.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Geoff


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## erneboy

Many A Class vans have overcab beds.


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## to6y

erneboy said:


> Many A Class vans have overcab beds.


Permanent bed?

I thought most 'A" class had drop down beds which often made the living area unusable.

1 kid on bed at back, 1 adult cooking, 1 adult sitting, 1 kid on bed at front...

If I'm wrong, would you mind suggesting a couple of vans to look at please.


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## to6y

Hi Alan

Thanks for replying.



rosalan said:


> My thoughts would be to consider the worst scenario, kids stuck in the van with non-stop rain and cold wind. Assuming that you are needing to work inside the van, space under these conditions is important.


Consider the worst scenario...I think this is good advice. Rain, cold, wind for a few days, kids bored driving each other nuts...if we had car, stop pretty much anywhere, google "swimming pool in xxxx", jump in car and go swimming for few hours. Problem solved.



rosalan said:


> Not buying a car and trailer at this time, seems logical.... buy what becomes necessary, if it becomes necessary.


and in all likelihood is the decision we will take for July. I can however see us returning in September, putting kids back into school for another term while we tweak setup, then leave after Christmas and spend some time in the Alps/Pyrenees teaching kids to ski properly.



rosalan said:


> To allow parking away from nearby shops could be overcome with either a scooter or electric bikes which work for us.


I did look at electric bikes, but as they are pretty much the same cost as a scooter I decided on a scooter (assuming we don't suddenly change our mind and go for a 3.5 tonne van with limited payload...but I think this is pretty unlikely!

Electric bike do have the benefit of taking up less room in the garage, however, if we do end up towing a car, I'll get a trailer large enough to carry both car and scooter. If we don't take car, I'll put scooter on Easylift and only hide in garage in locations we feel are "dodgy".



rosalan said:


> The other option, which I would not favour, is an American RV. Not favoured because of width and length in Aires. There are however a few new vans on the market with pull-out sides that could be another consideration.


I think value for money we'll get more for our buck with a "normal" van rather than an American RV. Most seem to be petrol and have sub 10 MPG...20,000 miles in year one, hate to think of that cost!



rosalan said:


> Good luck.... I am just envious.
> 
> Alan


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## nicholsong

Toby

You said
"Again, this was a deliberate decision. We wanted both front and rear facing dinette table so that both kids and my wife could sit at table doing something while we are driving"
.
Are you sure the rear-facing dinette seat is approved for occupation while driving? Also the distances you are talking about per day will not take long and if the kids are doing something at the table will they not miss the country they are travelling through and the chance to say 'Dad can we stop to look at ......'

Re the fixed overcab bed; a drop-down takes seconds to lower and is always made up. If someone is in that bed you only need seating for three, which you would have in most large 'A' Class without needing the cab seats, but they would be available again in seconds, e.g. for dinner for 4. Basia who has kids confirmed this opinion.

You also mentioned the kids having the fixed rear bed. Is that just for play or sleeping? If for sleeping, you adults would be using the fixed overcab and because of the cab width it is restricted in length and height. Have you tried one?

Toby, earlier I did not get round to the bit you said abut using the garage partly as a kennel. I think you said in the middle of the garage, with access for the dog to the habitation area. I do not know the size of your dog but if it needs the full fore-aft length of the middle of the garage it severely restricts the use of the rest and probably precludes its use for bicycles, except maybe folding ones, but certainly a scooter. Also you would need a MH with two doors to the garage.

In my previous post I mentioned the overhang, but did not get round to the question of the effect on the rear axle loading of hanging anything off the back, whether the weight on the towbar or bicycles/scooter on a rack - you would need to do the calculations very carefully on that long overhang on the Dethleffs, rembering what you are already loading into the garage.

I know, I know, it is all complicated - but you know that:laugh:

The good thing is that you have come on with a good grasp of what you are talking about and this has encouraged other knowledgeable people to give the inputs you were looking for - result in itself whatever you decide.

Geoff


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## StephandJohn

We didn't useours much but I think we would more now as I'd like the kitchen outside when its really hot. You never know about all of this until you've tried it all out.
Exciting times. We've nevr regretted a minute of it.


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## aldra

I don't know much

But I know about dogs and garages

We have wire internal garage doors on either side

So when the hound from **** is in he has a through breeze

He also has a fan

Of course being a hound from **** he can't be attached outside the MH
Where he could eat passing people or kids

If you have a scooter in the garage I doubt you could have a lab as well

We have a scooter
But intend to carry it on a transverse trailer

The garage is brilliant for a swimming wet hound, a muddy hound, and a bit of parked time without worrying about a hound who takes up far too much room in the van

But he requires half of the garage, a well ventilated space

And when all else fails

An air conditioned inner van

Air conditioning allows us to leave him 3/4 hours to explore in hot weather

And we travel out of season

We have always found someone willing to watch out

And contact us if something goes wrong

I forgot to say the hound from **** is a giant pussycat away from the van

He adores people and they seem to adore him

Aldra


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## aldra

Why is **** astericked out

Since when has **** been a swear word


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## aldra

Where is my avatar??

Now getting really

Pissed off, ok **** is really bad

How about pissed????

Aldra


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## to6y

nicholsong said:


> Toby
> 
> You said
> "Again, this was a deliberate decision. We wanted both front and rear facing dinette table so that both kids and my wife could sit at table doing something while we are driving"
> .
> Are you sure the rear-facing dinette seat is approved for occupation while driving? Also the distances you are talking about per day will not take long and if the kids are doing something at the table will they not miss the country they are travelling through and the chance to say 'Dad can we stop to look at ......'


I believe legal, gives options even if we don't use that way. They still have windows back there so hopefully will see enough!



nicholsong said:


> Re the fixed overcab bed; a drop-down takes seconds to lower and is always made up. If someone is in that bed you only need seating for three, which you would have in most large 'A' Class without needing the cab seats, but they would be available again in seconds, e.g. for dinner for 4. Basia who has kids confirmed this opinion.


Drop down does take seconds but if I want to stay up late on computer, an overcab bed offers a little more privacy (wrong word...less chance i'd disturb person trying to sleep).



nicholsong said:


> You also mentioned the kids having the fixed rear bed. Is that just for play or sleeping? If for sleeping, you adults would be using the fixed overcab and because of the cab width it is restricted in length and height. Have you tried one?


Plan is for kids to sleep in the rear bed, then we can stay up late at the front and not disturb them...however every van we have looked at with the kids, they insist the front bed is going to be theirs!! I see arguments on the horizon!

Not been inside a Dethleffs XXL A9800 and will probably buy without actually even visiting one in the flesh however have look at other similar sized over cab beds (Burstner Argos 747 for example) and I think we'd manage.



nicholsong said:


> Toby, earlier I did not get round to the bit you said abut using the garage partly as a kennel. I think you said in the middle of the garage, with access for the dog to the habitation area. I do not know the size of your dog but if it needs the full fore-aft length of the middle of the garage it severely restricts the use of the rest and probably precludes its use for bicycles, except maybe folding ones, but certainly a scooter. Also you would need a MH with two doors to the garage.


Have not worked out exactly but either:

build a shelf centre of garage, which would allow storage underneath, plywood wall either side, cut hole into habitation section coming out at base of double bed in the back...disadvantage is that only way in and out would be via habitation section, advantage is that it maximises storage space in garage
cut hole at base of double bed in the back, ramp down and off to one side, giving access to roughly 1/3 of the garage. again separated by a plywood wall...disadvantage is we lose overall storage space, advantage we would probably still fit in a scooter, main advantage, when dog is wet and muddy, we can let him in via the garage door and prevent the habitation section getting too dirty!

The Dethleffs XXL 9800 has a door on either side.



nicholsong said:


> In my previous post I mentioned the overhang, but did not get round to the question of the effect on the rear axle loading of hanging anything off the back, whether the weight on the towbar or bicycles/scooter on a rack - you would need to do the calculations very carefully on that long overhang on the Dethleffs, rembering what you are already loading into the garage.


Not necessarily an answer but seems little one can do about it so I think I'll just cross my fingers and hope.

The Dethleffs XXL 9800 does seem to have plenty of storage further forward as well as it has a double floor.



nicholsong said:


> I know, I know, it is all complicated - but you know that:laugh:
> 
> The good thing is that you have come on with a good grasp of what you are talking about and this has encouraged other knowledgeable people to give the inputs you were looking for - result in itself whatever you decide.
> 
> Geoff


----------



## to6y

aldra said:


> I don't know much
> 
> But I know about dogs and garages
> 
> We have wire internal garage doors on either side
> 
> So when the hound from **** is in he has a through breeze
> 
> He also has a fan
> 
> Of course being a hound from **** he can't be attached outside the MH
> Where he could eat passing people or kids
> 
> If you have a scooter in the garage I doubt you could have a lab as well
> 
> We have a scooter
> But intend to carry it on a transverse trailer
> 
> The garage is brilliant for a swimming wet hound, a muddy hound, and a bit of parked time without worrying about a hound who takes up far too much room in the van
> 
> But he requires half of the garage, a well ventilated space
> 
> And when all else fails
> 
> An air conditioned inner van
> 
> Air conditioning allows us to leave him 3/4 hours to explore in hot weather
> 
> And we travel out of season
> 
> We have always found someone willing to watch out
> 
> And contact us if something goes wrong
> 
> I forgot to say the hound from **** is a giant pussycat away from the van
> 
> He adores people and they seem to adore him
> 
> Aldra


Hi Aldra

Thanks for your input, very useful stuff indeed - fan is a good idea.

The van we are looking at already has a window/grill in one of the garage doors (see attached), this is why we currently favour giving him roughly 1/3 of the garage. Plenty I would have thought for him. He would probably be happy with 1/4 however then I think the ramp from the habitation access point (base of rear bed) would be too steep.

Do you give your hounds access to the habitation area? If so, how?

This space is more for use when he is wet/muddy, at night and during day if he wants some peace and quiet! Rather than while we are around and wanting him to guard the van...as should anybody approach (friend or foe) all he would be interested in doing was playing with them!

Many thanks

Toby


----------



## aldra

There is no access from the garage to the interior

He is either in the garage or inthe motorhome 

He can't be tied outside as he attacks anyone approaching the MH
Once free of guard duty as defined by him he is a big softly 

I wouldn't think that amount of air imput would be sufficient 

It may be if you are moving and the dog was in the garage

Static no

We have both doors wide open with internal fitted wire doors and a fan

Of course we may be acting on overkill

Only you can decide what your hound needs

Easier if you can have him/her outside
And it sounds as though you could

At night he sleeps in the van

All windows open
And may your God go with you if you try to enter

He is not called the hound from **** for nothing

45 kil of mean machine

Or away from the van

A heavy wieght on your knee

Aldra


----------



## to6y

aldra said:


> There is no access from the garage to the interior
> 
> He is either in the garage or inthe motorhome
> 
> He can't be tied outside as he attacks anyone approaching the MH
> Once free of guard duty as defined by him he is a big softly
> 
> I wouldn't think that amount of air imput would be sufficient
> 
> It may be if you are moving and the dog was in the garage
> 
> Static no
> 
> We have both doors wide open with internal fitted wire doors and a fan
> 
> Of course we may be acting on overkill
> 
> Only you can decide what your hound needs
> 
> Easier if you can have him/her outside
> And it sounds as though you could
> 
> At night he sleeps in the van
> 
> All windows open
> And may your God go with you if you try to enter
> 
> He is not called the hound from **** for nothing
> 
> 45 kil of mean machine
> 
> Or away from the van
> 
> A heavy wieght on your knee
> 
> Aldra


Our plan...

At night, his bed would be in the garage...garage door locked but free access to habitation section.

We away for few hours, same as above - air con left on in hot weather.

During day when we around the van and safe for him to wander, we'd probably leave garage door open, van door open and he could go anywhere.

During day when we around the van but not safe for him to wander, we'd probably leave garage door open and put him on some sort of long lead fixed around our side door, allowing him access to his garage bed (from the outside) and to the main habitation area (from the side door)...frankly, I would hope this setup wasn't use too much as the rope would be a pain in the neck.

Getting back from walk with wet/muddy dog, we'd access his bed via garage door and close door (wire mesh) into habitation section for hour or so


----------



## listerdiesel

When you are driving, passengers have to be seated with seat belts on, you cannot allow the passengers to roam around while the vehicle is in motion. That is my understanding of the law as it affects motorhome passengers.

Only mentioning it now as nobody else seems to have picked up on it.

The basic scheme seems fine, you won't get four people and a dog on a scooter, and if you have the car anyway, would you use the scooter?

Length shouldn't be a problem solo, but add a car trailer and it starts to get a bit unwieldy. Our Mercedes Vario bus is 7.5 metres long, our trailer is another 7.5 metres with the towbar. Allowing for a small family car on a trailer you are in the 13-14 metre length bracket. On most roads you'll be fine.

Parking is another matter!

Accomodation is such a personal thing that I won't go there.

If you are going to be 'electrically active' then batteries, chargers and solar panels will be in your future.

We went to the south of France via Holland last year, big trailer towed by our Discovery. We did the trip almost entirely on back roads and no motorways and had no trouble at all, that rig would have been about the same as your proposed outfit with trailer.

You soon learn where not to go.

LPG tankage needs thought too, we use about 12 litres a long weekend. The trailer has 28 litres capacity, the Mercedes is going to be 64 litres. We've never run out, but often we have not found LPG where we wanted (particular as our two V8 Discoveries run on LPG) So a decent refillable tank is also in your future.

Cooking and food storage is pretty important, we have a full set of hob/oven/fridge on both vehicles.

Water heating is by LPG, plus electric on the trailer, both have toilet and shower, we have warm air heating on both as well.

Most of these things come ready fitted on what you will be buying, just watch out for the 'non-oven', apparently not a big favourite on the continent.

Peter


----------



## to6y

Thank you so much for your advice.



listerdiesel said:


> When you are driving, passengers have to be seated with seat belts on, you cannot allow the passengers to roam around while the vehicle is in motion. That is my understanding of the law as it affects motorhome passengers.
> 
> Only mentioning it now as nobody else seems to have picked up on it.


That is my understanding too, don't plan on letting the kids run around while moving!



listerdiesel said:


> The basic scheme seems fine, you won't get four people and a dog on a scooter, and if you have the car anyway, would you use the scooter?


Basically the idea of having both is so that my wife and the kids can go off in the morning to see xxxx, I would then do a few hours work and join them in the afternoon via the scooter.



listerdiesel said:


> Length shouldn't be a problem solo, but add a car trailer and it starts to get a bit unwieldy. Our Mercedes Vario bus is 7.5 metres long, our trailer is another 7.5 metres with the towbar. Allowing for a small family car on a trailer you are in the 13-14 metre length bracket. On most roads you'll be fine.
> 
> Parking is another matter!


Driving just a 8.5m motor home doesnt worry me at all, sure I'll get the hang of it pretty quick...I may even go and do a course in the next couple of months somewhere...get the impression that may reduce my insurance premium down anyway!

But add a trailer on the back and another ~4m, does scare me a little. What on earth would I do if I got stuck in a sleepy little village and needed to reverse or worse still on a road with even a slight drop on one side...I guess vodka...oh no, that doesn't work as I'll be driving!



listerdiesel said:


> Accomodation is such a personal thing that I won't go there.
> 
> If you are going to be 'electrically active' then batteries, chargers and solar panels will be in your future.


Planning on solar while away from hookup, will possibly also keep small generator just in case



listerdiesel said:


> We went to the south of France via Holland last year, big trailer towed by our Discovery. We did the trip almost entirely on back roads and no motorways and had no trouble at all, that rig would have been about the same as your proposed outfit with trailer.
> 
> You soon learn where not to go.


It is the first few occasions that worry me!



listerdiesel said:


> LPG tankage needs thought too, we use about 12 litres a long weekend. The trailer has 28 litres capacity, the Mercedes is going to be 64 litres. We've never run out, but often we have not found LPG where we wanted (particular as our two V8 Discoveries run on LPG) So a decent refillable tank is also in your future.


Refillable LPG bottles already on list...I do read however that some countries are lacking LPG filling stations, I guess time will tell if this becomes a problem



listerdiesel said:


> Cooking and food storage is pretty important, we have a full set of hob/oven/fridge on both vehicles.
> 
> Water heating is by LPG, plus electric on the trailer, both have toilet and shower, we have warm air heating on both as well.
> 
> Most of these things come ready fitted on what you will be buying, just watch out for the 'non-oven', apparently not a big favourite on the continent.
> 
> Peter


I think most of these things are on the van we currently have our eyes on, it doesn't have an oven (most don't seem to in Germany) however I am told I can retrofit an oven pretty inexpensively.


----------



## erneboy

I see what you mean. Not sure about that, they may all be drop down beds.


----------



## aldra

Sounds good

We cannot allow the **** hound to be free unless we are wild camping away from the madding crowd

The garage though is perfect if like us you have a hound that adores water, even a muddy puddle will do all else failing

And if the weather is hot, nothing beats a swim

Good luck on your search for the perfect van

Aldra


----------



## barryd

Looks like you are getting some good advice Toby (Told you! )

The only thing I would add at the moment is to look at payload in detail and especially over the back axle. Will a car on a trailer and a scooter in the garage as well as all your stuff and 2 adults and 2 kids put you over your limit? A fair bit of maths to do there. If you can do it then do it but getting the payload right is key for you. Your going to need a big van for sure.

You mention you will be working and I take it from that you will need internet access. Internet cafes and free wifi are available but I like to work from the van so carry a long range wifi antenna but its not reliable. Sometimes I get on sometimes I do not. Satellite Internet is another option (I think Alan Ereneboy) has this. Its a bit pricey though. (or was). Joining FON or BT Openzone is a good idea. Free spots available in many countries, especially France.

I have seen families abroad with small children with push bikes with little trailers for the kiddies. You would have to be super fit though if in the Alps etc. 

For me I would never swap the scooter for a car but I can see why you might need one (We dont have kids). Would it not be possible to see how you get on without the car, maybe hire one if needed and if it becomes an issue buy one and a trailer later?

You will find parking and stop overs a lot easier without a trailer and car.


----------



## listerdiesel

Most of Europe is pretty well supplied with LPG stations, especially Holland, but apart from our driving consumption, we had no problems.

Filler positioning is something to think about. What is convenient for installation may be a complete train wreck when you try and fill up at some sites.

We ended up with three fillers on the trailer and will have two on the Mercedes.

Peter


----------



## to6y

Thanks very much for your advice.



barryd said:


> Looks like you are getting some good advice Toby (Told you! )
> 
> The only thing I would add at the moment is to look at payload in detail and especially over the back axle. Will a car on a trailer and a scooter in the garage as well as all your stuff and 2 adults and 2 kids put you over your limit? A fair bit of maths to do there. If you can do it then do it but getting the payload right is key for you. Your going to need a big van for sure.


Payload I can guessimate OK and recon I'll be fine.

How do I work out axle limits though?



barryd said:


> You mention you will be working and I take it from that you will need internet access. Internet cafes and free wifi are available but I like to work from the van so carry a long range wifi antenna but its not reliable. Sometimes I get on sometimes I do not. Satellite Internet is another option (I think Alan Ereneboy) has this. Its a bit pricey though. (or was). Joining FON or BT Openzone is a good idea. Free spots available in many countries, especially France.


I think I am prob going to get Sat internet, not too expensive and it is for business so it'll pay.

I'll also take wifi to use if available to help keep sat usage within limits.



barryd said:


> I have seen families abroad with small children with push bikes with little trailers for the kiddies. You would have to be super fit though if in the Alps etc.


It's an idea...if you see me, perhaps not a great one 



barryd said:


> For me I would never swap the scooter for a car but I can see why you might need one (We dont have kids). Would it not be possible to see how you get on without the car, maybe hire one if needed and if it becomes an issue buy one and a trailer later?
> 
> You will find parking and stop overs a lot easier without a trailer and car.


Yeah, we may start without and add if we need to!


----------



## to6y

aldra said:


> Sounds good
> 
> We cannot allow the **** hound to be free unless we are wild camping away from the madding crowd
> 
> The garage though is perfect if like us you have a hound that adores water, even a muddy puddle will do all else failing
> 
> And if the weather is hot, nothing beats a swim
> 
> Good luck on your search for the perfect van
> 
> Aldra


Thanks.

Have you come across a good website, blog, book or similar that lists good dog walks across Europe?

When you're moving daily, how do you find good places to walk your dogs? Is it just a case or stopping in sensible areas...near lake, wood etc + asking locals?


----------



## to6y

listerdiesel said:


> Most of Europe is pretty well supplied with LPG stations, especially Holland, but apart from our driving consumption, we had no problems.
> 
> Filler positioning is something to think about. What is convenient for installation may be a complete train wreck when you try and fill up at some sites.
> 
> We ended up with three fillers on the trailer and will have two on the Mercedes.
> 
> Peter


Three filling points??

Do you not just connect to the top of the bottle?

Do you have extra hoses/valves running to either side or something?


----------



## nicholsong

Toby

Yesterday(0803 pm) you posted my quote and your answer.

_In my previous post I mentioned the overhang, but did not get round to the question of the effect on the rear axle loading of hanging anything off the back, whether the weight on the towbar or bicycles/scooter on a rack - you would need to do the calculations very carefully on that long overhang on the Dethleffs, rembering what you are already loading into the garage._
"Not necessarily an answer but seems little one can do about it so I think I'll just cross my fingers and hope."

This frightened me, and Barry has since urged you to check loading.

If tou get the MH layout or choice of transport wrong uou can learn to 'live with it'.

In the case of back axle overloading you might have to learn to' DIE with it'

Overloading the back axle can have consequences for safety:-

It 'unloads' the front axle and thus affects steering

It puts unacceptable loads on the rear tyres, which increase their temperature and can lead to a blowout, the effects of which would be exagerated when towing, particularly with the weight of a car on a trailer.

You are contemplating touring in Norway, Alps and Pyrenese; just imagine losing control on a mountain road with a steep drop and no crash barrier. Ask Barry's opinion he knows those roads well.

Without properly calculating the rear axle loading you would be putting yourself and family at risk - it is not just a matter of legality, and 'cross my fingers and hope' is not the way to proceed.

I am not sorry if this sounds heavy - it is meant to sound heavy - I would feel guilty if I did not say it and there were targic consequences.

Geoff


----------



## listerdiesel

to6y said:


> Three filling points??
> 
> Do you not just connect to the top of the bottle?
> 
> Do you have extra hoses/valves running to either side or something?


Filling of LPG bottles outside of the gas suppliers is only allowed when they have an 80% cutoff valve in the top, otherwise it is not allowed in most countries.

Filling a bottle directly, even with a cut-off valve is pretty much banned at almost all filling stations in Europe.

What you have is a fixed tank with external filler point(s)

We have three filler points as the trailer is too long to pull up to most pumps without blocking off other pumps or the service station outlet.

So we have one each side, just past halfway back and one at the front which we can use at the same time we fill the Discovery LPG tanks.

The Mercedes will have two fillers, one each side as you cannot always guarantee getting alongside a pump on the correct side, especially in the UK.

Peter


----------



## erneboy

Something to think about with satellite internet.

A roof mounted automatic dish (as we have) is great most of the time, but not good when it's windy. A friend of ours (seanoo who is a member here) carries a dish and sets it up, well secured, beside his van. It takes a little longer, but it's a great deal less effected by wind and so works well most of the time.

I don't know which packages you are looking at but Sean and I both use Satellite Internet.co.uk. You can top up easily if you run out of bandwidth during the month, and you can have unlimited downloads overnight for an additional £7 a month. The connection is reliable.

You need to consider which band you want to be on (Ka or Ku) because the footprints vary and using a Ka package you may run out of signal if you go into Spain. Be careful over your choice.

We use their zone 4 package to avoid that.

Cheers, Alan.


----------



## nicholsong

Toby 

Peter is right to point out the difficulties of access to LPG points.

His situation is a little mor complex than yours in that he is filling the trailer for domestic purposes (and sometimes Discovery) so he has to have towing vehicle well in front of the pump, whereas you would be filling the towing vehicle with the trailer sticking out behind - could still be a problem so better to have the filler(s) some way back from along the MH.

Peter is quite correct about the fact that some LPG pumps can only be approached on one side - others are on islands like petrol/diesel and the hose can reach either side. I often have to turn my MH round on the forecourt to position filler on correct side, but not so easy if you are towing.

I usually stop near entrance to forecourt to suss out where the pump is - not always obvious when you pull off the road. Even with fillers both sides this would be wise.

Geoff


----------



## barryd

Toby. Do not underestimate or guesstimate payload for what you are trying to achieve. Remember I said I had never seen a scooter AND a car motorhome combination? There may well be a good reason for that.

Payload is the available weight you can stuff in your van before it reaches its maximum legal and safe weight.

For example on my van its 3500 Max weight but I have a generous payload of 690KG. However its not as simple as that. There will be maximum loads for each axle and all your weight with a bike and car is going to be on the rear. You may be under the total max weight limit but miles over on the back end. Illegal and dangerous.

For example on my van I had 300KG to play with on the back axle before I fitted my rack and scooter. Loads I thought, no problem however you need to take into account the overhang. The rack and towbar I had fitted was about 50KG total and the bike (a very light Peugeot Speedfight) was 95KG. Because of the overhang it added up to about 250KG and when I got everything weighed once it was all on we were bang on the limit. Buying a bigger heavier van is no guarantee of a much bigger payload either.

there is a useful calculator for loading scooters etc here. http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/30435-safe-loading-and-payloads

So I would do the research on a vans payload as you will find as I did that you have to discount 80% of them as they are not up to the job.

The sort of touring we do involves some pretty punishing and tight journeys up some of the highest and remote roads in Europe. If your going up the likes of the Col de La Bonnette in the Alps or the Col de Tourmelet in the Pyrenees I am not sure I would want to take a huge van with a car on a trailer up some of those but then again I would probably give it a go  Think the end of the Italian Job! :grin2: Any Euro box van up to 8m or so without a car towing behind will have no problems on those roads and most of the mountains of Europe.

So when you make your choice of van do all the maths to see if you can manage both a car and scooter but if it were me I would forget the car and see how it goes. Your kids are going to love it no matter what. Parking in towns, village and up mountains is so much easier in Europe and even most cities have aires or stopovers near where the action is. You may even find the car is more of a pain in the backside than not having one at all.


----------



## listerdiesel

Certainly vans with long overhangs and relatively low axle loadings can be a difficulty when it comes to loadings and towing.

Our Mercedes has a relatively short overhang and a high axle rating of 4.4 tonnes. In addition, our trailer has no real imposed vertical loading at the towball other than during acceleration and to a lesser extent, braking, due to it being a turntable drawbar chassis, only the direct weight of the coupling and a proportion of the A-bar frame actually weighs onto the towball.

To hang our Suzuki scooter off the back will need a custome framework, but we have a very substantial towing bracket directly from the chassis and only inches behind the chassis end, while most motorhomes have a long subframe with a towbar tacked on behind it all.

Peter


----------



## nicholsong

Toby

Barry is saying similar to what I wrote earlier.

What I forgot to say, but I think Barry implied, is that you need to do these calculations now, before shelling out on any MH.

You have said that you may decide to go without the car and trailer initially, but do you want to retain the option? If so you need to consider the weight and geometry of the trailer and car and the type of towbar you would fit, together with the allowable 'nose' weight on the towball.

To do all this you need to consider the weight of car, the geometry of the trailer, position of the car on the trailer, length of the drawbar in order to calculate the 'nose' weight. Then to calculate the extra download of that on the rear-axle, which is a factoe of the 'nose' weight multiplied by the distance from the towball to the centre of the axle.

You need to do the same calculations for the things you carry in the garage and then add the totals to find the rear-axle loading. Don't forget the weight of the towbar itself.

The length of the overhang on the Dethleffs you are looking at may give you some surprises after you have done the calculations.

While we are talking about towbars, remember that they reduce the ground clearance. You mentioned some sports car and ground clearance; it is not just the ground clearance to consider but the angle between the rear-axle and the bottom of the towbar when the front of the vehicle is elevated starting up, or down, a sharp incline or ferry ramp. This angle is more critical with a long overhang like the Dethleffs. Our MH has less overhang and a towbar. We had to modify the driveway into two sections to allow the MH to get down it. It took considerable attempts at contours to suit.

Toby, this is all to ensure you get the right MH to do what you want, safely and without hassle - remember you are going for a year not a w/e and with your family as a responsibility.

I still wish you good luck with the decision and the trip and I continue to be jealous.

Geoff


----------



## listerdiesel

nicholsong said:


> I still wish you good luck with the decision and the trip and I continue to be jealous.
> Geoff


Me too!

Peter


----------



## to6y

nicholsong said:


> Toby
> 
> Yesterday(0803 pm) you posted my quote and your answer.
> 
> _In my previous post I mentioned the overhang, but did not get round to the question of the effect on the rear axle loading of hanging anything off the back, whether the weight on the towbar or bicycles/scooter on a rack - you would need to do the calculations very carefully on that long overhang on the Dethleffs, rembering what you are already loading into the garage._
> "Not necessarily an answer but seems little one can do about it so I think I'll just cross my fingers and hope."
> 
> This frightened me, and Barry has since urged you to check loading.
> 
> If tou get the MH layout or choice of transport wrong uou can learn to 'live with it'.
> 
> In the case of back axle overloading you might have to learn to' DIE with it'
> 
> Overloading the back axle can have consequences for safety:-
> 
> It 'unloads' the front axle and thus affects steering
> 
> It puts unacceptable loads on the rear tyres, which increase their temperature and can lead to a blowout, the effects of which would be exagerated when towing, particularly with the weight of a car on a trailer.
> 
> You are contemplating touring in Norway, Alps and Pyrenese; just imagine losing control on a mountain road with a steep drop and no crash barrier. Ask Barry's opinion he knows those roads well.
> 
> Without properly calculating the rear axle loading you would be putting yourself and family at risk - it is not just a matter of legality, and 'cross my fingers and hope' is not the way to proceed.
> 
> I am not sorry if this sounds heavy - it is meant to sound heavy - I would feel guilty if I did not say it and there were targic consequences.
> 
> Geoff


Point taken.

I have already highlighted I need more than the standard 3500kg van...currently focusing on Iveco chassis (i.e. Dethleffs XXL A9800 [figures below]) as this offers both a good Payload (1457kg) and a towing weight of (2850kg).

Lets say MH payload is maxed out, then the MH will be 6700kg

12 foot trailer = 350kg
Peugeot 107 = 800kg
Scooter = 100kg
Total = 1250kg

MH (6700kg) + trailer (1250kg) = 7950kg

This is below the 8250kg limit of my pre-1997 C1E license.

It is my understanding, weight on trailer does not eat into MH payload, therefore all within limits.

If no car and therefore no trailer, the scooter will be on an easylift on the motorhome, obviously the payload will be eaten into but should still leave plenty I would hope!

I will now try and get my head around axle limits...no idea about them at the moment!


----------



## to6y

barryd said:


> Toby. Do not underestimate or guesstimate payload for what you are trying to achieve. Remember I said I had never seen a scooter AND a car motorhome combination? There may well be a good reason for that.
> 
> Payload is the available weight you can stuff in your van before it reaches its maximum legal and safe weight.


If the car and scooter are on a trailer would this effect the MH payload?



barryd said:


> For example on my van its 3500 Max weight but I have a generous payload of 690KG. However its not as simple as that. There will be maximum loads for each axle and all your weight with a bike and car is going to be on the rear. You may be under the total max weight limit but miles over on the back end. Illegal and dangerous.
> 
> For example on my van I had 300KG to play with on the back axle before I fitted my rack and scooter. Loads I thought, no problem however you need to take into account the overhang. The rack and towbar I had fitted was about 50KG total and the bike (a very light Peugeot Speedfight) was 95KG. Because of the overhang it added up to about 250KG and when I got everything weighed once it was all on we were bang on the limit. Buying a bigger heavier van is no guarantee of a much bigger payload either.
> 
> there is a useful calculator for loading scooters etc here. http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/30435-safe-loading-and-payloads


Great, I'll try and get my head around axle limits now!



barryd said:


> So I would do the research on a vans payload as you will find as I did that you have to discount 80% of them as they are not up to the job.
> 
> The sort of touring we do involves some pretty punishing and tight journeys up some of the highest and remote roads in Europe. If your going up the likes of the Col de La Bonnette in the Alps or the Col de Tourmelet in the Pyrenees I am not sure I would want to take a huge van with a car on a trailer up some of those but then again I would probably give it a go  Think the end of the Italian Job! :grin2: Any Euro box van up to 8m or so without a car towing behind will have no problems on those roads and most of the mountains of Europe.


The idea of towing something around a sleepy village worries me, let alone along mountain roads...think I'll be missing the mountain passes with a dozen hairpin bends!



barryd said:


> So when you make your choice of van do all the maths to see if you can manage both a car and scooter but if it were me I would forget the car and see how it goes. Your kids are going to love it no matter what. Parking in towns, village and up mountains is so much easier in Europe and even most cities have aires or stopovers near where the action is. You may even find the car is more of a pain in the backside than not having one at all.


I guess until we start travelling we won't know whether we should or whether we should have a car with us as well...


----------



## to6y

nicholsong said:


> Toby
> 
> Barry is saying similar to what I wrote earlier.
> 
> What I forgot to say, but I think Barry implied, is that you need to do these calculations now, before shelling out on any MH.
> 
> You have said that you may decide to go without the car and trailer initially, but do you want to retain the option? If so you need to consider the weight and geometry of the trailer and car and the type of towbar you would fit, together with the allowable 'nose' weight on the towball.
> 
> To do all this you need to consider the weight of car, the geometry of the trailer, position of the car on the trailer, length of the drawbar in order to calculate the 'nose' weight. Then to calculate the extra download of that on the rear-axle, which is a factoe of the 'nose' weight multiplied by the distance from the towball to the centre of the axle.
> 
> You need to do the same calculations for the things you carry in the garage and then add the totals to find the rear-axle loading. Don't forget the weight of the towbar itself.
> 
> The length of the overhang on the Dethleffs you are looking at may give you some surprises after you have done the calculations.
> 
> While we are talking about towbars, remember that they reduce the ground clearance. You mentioned some sports car and ground clearance; it is not just the ground clearance to consider but the angle between the rear-axle and the bottom of the towbar when the front of the vehicle is elevated starting up, or down, a sharp incline or ferry ramp. This angle is more critical with a long overhang like the Dethleffs. Our MH has less overhang and a towbar. We had to modify the driveway into two sections to allow the MH to get down it. It took considerable attempts at contours to suit.
> 
> Toby, this is all to ensure you get the right MH to do what you want, safely and without hassle - remember you are going for a year not a w/e and with your family as a responsibility.
> 
> I still wish you good luck with the decision and the trip and I continue to be jealous.
> 
> Geoff


Lucky I have an 'A' level in maths!

Where the **** do I find out axle limits, measurements of overhang etc?

I thought buying a MH and running away would be easy!


----------



## listerdiesel

Axle weights are on the vehicle VIN plate.

Axle weights added together normally exceed the Gross Vehicle Weight:

Mercedes Vario 614D
Front Axle 2.3 tonnes
Rear Axle 4.3 tonnes
Gross Vehicle Weight 5.99 tonnes

Gross Train Weight will be the maximum vehicle plus trailer all-up weight.

With an unbraked trailer the absolute maximum trailer plus load weight is 750kg
With a braked trailer the absolute maximum trailer plus load weight is 3500kg

Your own vehicle will have a plate that tells you either the Gross Train Weight or the maximum trailer weight you can tow.

Peter


----------



## to6y

listerdiesel said:


> Axle weights are on the vehicle VIN plate.
> 
> Axle weights added together normally exceed the Gross Vehicle Weight:
> 
> Mercedes Vario 614D
> Front Axle 2.3 tonnes
> Rear Axle 4.3 tonnes
> Gross Vehicle Weight 5.99 tonnes
> 
> Gross Train Weight will be the maximum vehicle plus trailer all-up weight.
> 
> With an unbraked trailer the absolute maximum trailer plus load weight is 750kg
> With a braked trailer the absolute maximum trailer plus load weight is 3500kg
> 
> Your own vehicle will have a plate that tells you either the Gross Train Weight or the maximum trailer weight you can tow.
> 
> Peter


OK, thanks.

So I need to ask sales reps to look at van and tell me the figures...I cannot find out online somewhere.

I have just spoken to smart-trailers.co.uk who seems to think if I had a scooter and car on a trailer than would produce about 60kg nose weight on towbar while stationary and about 7-8% of total trailer weight while moving.

His general feeling was that we would have nothing to worry about with an Iveco chassis where Dethleffs are saying max towing weight is 2850kg and we are only proposing to tow ~1250kg.

That is why I sort of said, I'll take a chance earlier.

But as I have started this research I think I will now try and find out the axle limits of the Dethleffs XXL A9800 and do the calculations...perhaps Ozzyjohn would be kind enough to let me know.


----------



## jiwawa

Hi To6y.

Reading your original post I'm struck by 2 things:

1. If you house both a scooter and a dog in the garage (even if only overnight in dodgy spots) I can't see you'll have room for all the 101 things you'll need full-timing for 4 of you.

2. You plan on moving about 100 miles every couple of days - you may find that you will want to do an awful lot less than that when you actually get going. We often stop in a place 'overnight' - and 4 or 5 days later, we're still there!

We full-timed for a couple of years and health problems have prevented us continuing in the short term - so I'm VERY jealous!!


----------



## StephandJohn

Me too!!!!


----------



## to6y

Thank you for replying.



JWW said:


> Hi To6y.
> 
> Reading your original post I'm struck by 2 things:
> 
> 1. If you house both a scooter and a dog in the garage (even if only overnight in dodgy spots) I can't see you'll have room for all the 101 things you'll need full-timing for 4 of you.


LOL, nor can I, it is a dilemma!



JWW said:


> 2. You plan on moving about 100 miles every couple of days - you may find that you will want to do an awful lot less than that when you actually get going. We often stop in a place 'overnight' - and 4 or 5 days later, we're still there!
> 
> We full-timed for a couple of years and health problems have prevented us continuing in the short term - so I'm VERY jealous!!


We will be flexible, if we think we are doing too much we will slow down...our route is also not totally planned...we may miss Scandinavia, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania for example...that would save 3 months, spread over the remained of the router, perhaps!


----------



## nicholsong

to6y said:


> Luck I have an 'A' level in maths!
> 
> Where the **** do I find out axle limits, measurements of overhang etc?
> 
> I thought buying a MH and running away would be easy!


Toby

You are obviously listening and can understand what we are saying, so that helps the discussion go on - better than some we have had where minds get closed.

With 'A' Level maths you understand 'Moments' of weight X length.

All the weight limits are on the 'latest' weight plate attached to the vehicle - that may be the original one supplied with the base vehicle by e.g. Iveco or by the Converter after building a MH on the chassis, or even after a change , e.g. to reduce it (for an under 3500kg driver), or to up the weight, either because it was originally plated below its design weight or because it had some modification, e.g air rides.

To understand what the current authorised weight is you need to see the vehiclce (I personally would not trust most dealers - either through their ignorance, or worse.)

Now assuming you have got the most recent 'plate' details then you have to calculate the weight of the whole vehicle and the weights on the axles to ensure legality, but as I and Barry said before, including safety.

I am off for supper now - any other response tomorrow.

Geoff


----------



## barryd

I assumed the scooter would be in the garage and the car on the trailer. If they are both on the trailer then as you say it shouldnt be a problem. It may not be anyway with those sorts of figures and payloads. Get the dealer to check whats on the plate as you say but to be really sure (and this would be a sale condition to me) the actual van your buying needs to be weighed and if your not there evidence produced to be really sure. What it says should be the payload and what it is are often different.

Moving off the technical stuff for a bit regarding the schedule etc. Our trips have all been quite long ones with the longest being six months but in the beginning we made the mistake of trying to do too much too quickly. You have a year. Take your time. Our rule now is when we find somewhere we like we just stay there until we are sick of it.

Others will argue against this but I plan and plan and plan. I like to spend weeks before a trip finding places to visit and good spots to stop over (I like wild camping) and the internet is full of useful tools to find these (more later when your ready).

Also make sure you invest in Solar panels. This way you can be independent of EHU in the spring, summer and autumn months anyway.


----------



## Ozzyjohn

Toby,

Following taken from the plate mounted next to the habitation entrance door of our 2006 Dethleffs Globetrotter A9800 XXL :-

Max vehicle weight 6500 kg
Max Train Weight 9500 kg 
Front axle limit 2300 kg
Rear axle limit 5000 kg

She weighs somewhere in the region of 5250kg unladen (with me, fuel and near full freshwater) - from a local weighbridge just after we bought her.

The rear overhang is long - but I came to this game with 14 years experience of towing 25 ft plus overall length twin axle caravans - so it has never been much of an issue for me. It does need some care though. Spend nearly as much time looking in the mirrors as you do looking where you are going and you shouldn't go far wrong. 

We bought ours with the expectation that we would tow a small car - but then we always managed without by using cycles (for five of us) and, more recently, taking a scooter instead. Your needs are probably different - but family cycling is MUCH more of a joy in France than it ever was in the UK.

If you need any more info on the van, feel free to ask.


Regards,
John


----------



## to6y

Ozzyjohn said:


> Toby,
> 
> Following taken from the plate mounted next to the habitation entrance door of our 2006 Dethleffs Globetrotter A9800 XXL :-
> 
> Max vehicle weight 6500 kg
> Max Train Weight 9500 kg
> Front axle limit 2300 kg
> Rear axle limit 5000 kg
> 
> She weighs somewhere in the region of 5250kg unladen (with me, fuel and near full freshwater) - from a local weighbridge just after we bought her.
> 
> The rear overhang is long - but I came to this game with 14 years experience of towing 25 ft plus overall length twin axle caravans - so it has never been much of an issue for me. It does need some care though. Spend nearly as much time looking in the mirrors as you do looking where you are going and you shouldn't go far wrong.
> 
> We bought ours with the expectation that we would tow a small car - but then we always managed without by using cycles (for five of us) and, more recently, taking a scooter instead. Your needs are probably different - but family cycling is MUCH more of a joy in France than it ever was in the UK.
> 
> If you need any more info on the van, feel free to ask.
> 
> Regards,
> John


Thanks.

Where does your scooter travel?

What do you have in your garage? Volume and weight wise?

No problem with axle weights?


----------



## Ozzyjohn

Toby,

The scooter (Honda PCX125) goes in the garage, along with a weber bbq and charcoal, a brompton folding bike, scooter clothing for two, water hose, much larger than it needs to be toolbox, and a few other odds and ends. The waste water tank is also behind the rear axle (just). 

Pre scooter we used to carry four push bikes, a tandem, five plastic garden chairs, the bbq and charcoal, water hose, toolbox etc, plus odds and ends.

The outdoor table, levelling ramps, scooter ramp, folding loungers (x2), walking boots, and a load of other stuff we probably never use goes in the underfloor section just behind the cab. There was always more space than needed for the stuff we wanted to take. 

Confession time, I've never taken it to a weighbridge fully loaded. I have weighed it near empty (see previous post) and have done some rough calculations of the weight added taking into account where it is stored. I think I'm ok, but I probably ought to check at a weighbridge .

I feel guilty now. 


Regards,
John


----------



## jiwawa

Ozzyjohn said:


> Toby,
> 
> Confession time, I've never taken it to a weighbridge fully loaded. I have weighed it near empty (see previous post) and have done some rough calculations of the weight added taking into account where it is stored. I think I'm ok, but I probably ought to check at a weighbridge .
> 
> I feel guilty now.
> 
> Regards,
> John


John, you might be surprised how much the little bits weigh.

When I last emptied (well, almost) the van, I used big Ikea bags and a suitcase weighing thingy to weigh everything I took out.

I was horrified at how many kg were taken up with 'bits' that I would have discounted otherwise.

But I bet you they all go back in!!


----------



## Ozzyjohn

JWW said:


> John, you might be surprised how much the little bits weigh.
> 
> When I last emptied (well, almost) the van, I used big Ikea bags and a suitcase weighing thingy to weigh everything I took out.
> 
> I was horrified at how many kg were taken up with 'bits' that I would have discounted otherwise.
> 
> But I bet you they all go back in!!


Indeed - they do all add up to more than I suspect most people would guess. I've done something similar to yourself (also using Ikea bags) - and when we had the whole family* + cycles + their other gear etc it added up to around 950kg - so we still had another 250kg or so to go. We never bring more than 100 kg of wine back with us, and would always return to uk with no more than a quarter of a tank of fresh water.

The scooter is heavier than the bikes were, but we've "lost" more than the difference by not taking the children (and their associated stuff).

How anybody manages with only a couple of hundred kilos of payload is beyond me (though to be fair, we have had cycle camping holidays - where we are much more disciplined - having to move everything with just your own muscles can focus the mind on what you REALLY need to take with you  ).

Weighbridge for me before we do our next big trip.

(edit to clarify - I did not put the children in Ikea bags!)

Regards,
John


----------



## aldra

Children should be put in ikea bags

Believe me I have 10 grandchildren

However move on

Empty the water replace it with wine Hic 

Ditch a couple of Gkids if necessary

Aldra


----------



## jiwawa

That thought crossed my mind too!


----------



## Suenliam

Hi Toby, can't add anything to the towing issue, but some time ago we met a couple in France who had spent 5 (yes5!) years traveling from Scandinavia to Southern Spain. They did not spend long in each place, but did "do" various places that interested them for say a week or two. Europe is a big place if you want to get to know it. A couple of overnights is not long to get to get to know and get the real feel of a place. 

Also have you considered your children getting to know other kids on campsites etc. and not really wanting to move on to "interesting" places when they have new found pals to play with? Interacting with others when you can't speak each others language is education at its best and kids do this so well.

You seem very flexible and adaptable that I am sure you will have considered the above. I am also in the very jealous camp!!!!


----------



## to6y

Suenliam said:


> Hi Toby, can't add anything to the towing issue, but some time ago we met a couple in France who had spent 5 (yes5!) years traveling from Scandinavia to Southern Spain. They did not spend long in each place, but did "do" various places that interested them for say a week or two. Europe is a big place if you want to get to know it. A couple of overnights is not long to get to get to know and get the real feel of a place.
> 
> Also have you considered your children getting to know other kids on campsites etc. and not really wanting to move on to "interesting" places when they have new found pals to play with? Interacting with others when you can't speak each others language is education at its best and kids do this so well.
> 
> You seem very flexible and adaptable that I am sure you will have considered the above. I am also in the very jealous camp!!!!


Our route has not really been decided on and could, probably will, change drastically.

Social contact with out children is an issue we have to figure out, I have already asked this question (via email) to a families with blogs that have done something similar already to what we have planned.

Learning how to socially interact with your peers is hard enough if home educating at home, at home you obviously have sports clubs and alike you can use...but we don't have this method if moving on a regular basis.

Would be nice to bump into other families travelling in the same direction as us for a few days and going in convey...fingers crossed.

Another unknown until we start I guess but definitely something we have to reflect on.


----------



## to6y

While mentioning routes, that leads me onto something else we have been thinking about...

When (and where) to go?

We currently have a target leave date of 1 July but is this a silly time of year to start. Peak season, many places busy, roads busy, ferries & campsites full & expensive etc etc

We would be new and basically have no idea what we were doing...we're thinking peak season may not be the best time to learn.

We are keen for this first year to be successful so that we can continue for ~5 years...until our oldest is ~13 and wanting different things!

Ideas we have are:

Leave 1 July, don't return to for 12 months
Leave 1 July, return 1 September - trial run for summer hols, go somewhere easy, kids go back into school until Christmas, leave again ~1 January (after tweaking setup) and go park in Alps for 4 months teaching kids to ski
Leave 1 September, don't return for 12 months, i.e. autumn less busy learn as we go (but winter is obviously the next season...which will perhaps be harder?!?)...perhaps head to Greece/Turkey initially
Leave 1 March 2016, don't return for 12 months i.e. spring less busy learn as we go...perhaps head to Spain/Portugal/Morocco initially


----------



## to6y

Leave 1 July, return 1 September or Leave 1 March 2016, my favoured options at the moment, but your feedback I'm sure will effect that.

I worry leaving on 1 July and planning not to come back could be a a train wreck!

Having a test run over summer hols sounds sensible, however is obviously the most expensive option...by quick a lot!

Leaving 1 September is probably more sensible that leaving during peak season, however we will only have 2 months of good weather...and then winter as relative newbies!

Leaving 1 March 2016 sounds the best option, but that is a whole year away...although would allow us to do much more planning etc It's nearly Easter, then summer term and hot weather so kids happy...then summer hols and swimming, then Christmas to look forward to...perhaps it would go fast enough!


----------



## Suenliam

If you go in the summer, there will be lots of other motorhomers around to help out:laugh:. You know how much we like to add our words of advice at any given (or not given) opportunity!
Sue


----------



## barryd

If your not that bothered about campsites (I rarely use them) then I wouldnt be worried about going into mainland Europe in peak season. Aires and Stellplatz etc are generally still cheap or free and wild camping is always free! 

Also July and August is when its all happening. Yes popular places will be busy but there will be lots going on to keep you and the kids amused. Of course having a motorhome means that once your sick of the crowds peace and solitude is never far away, you just drive off and find it!

We are nearly always away in July and August, never had a problem and can always find a place on your own or not crowded. (best for the weather as well)


----------



## GMJ

Hi Toby


Great thread 


I have mostly skim read it so apologies if I am suggesting some things that others have.


- You mentioned solar panels - great - but maybe also consider a second habitation battery as well? Long cold Scandinavian nights might drain the battery especially if keeping kids entertained.


- Someone mentioned hiring a car when you need it. This is the way my mind is heading as we are planning on getting something large and wintering in S Spain when we retire and I think it will work out the most cost effective and sensible option for us. From your pov you could build in car hire days to your itinerary; base yourself somewhere for a few days in your MH; then use the hire car to see the sights that you cant reach via bikes/scooters/public transport etc. I guess you will be home educating your nippers so perhaps this is something they could get involved in (the planning of the days, that is).


- Stock up on cheap DVDs. We buy ones from Poundland (which are reconditioned I think) and also HMV do many unused films that start at £3 a piece. Don't get me wrong, we don't sit there glued to the TV when we are away but sometimes when its rubbish weather, its nice to watch a film together. Also you cannot always guarantee TV reception even with satellites. I guess you are well IT enabled/literate from reading the thread but having the option of having a DVD on for the kids does free up your laptop!


Lastly, no one seems to have mentioned the most important piece of kit yet: the BBQ 


Abso-bloody-lutely essential imho...I bought a decent size CADAC one which I can plug into the MH gas supply. I fully recommend it. I have not just done the BBQ stuff but you can also do wok meals; paella; pizzas...with the right plates for it.


I cant be doing with charcoal ones myself due to all the phaff with them but I suspect that this is an area split into 2 camps so there will no doubt be some comeback on this point 


tbh if you have the space you could take both 


It all sounds really great btw


Graham


----------



## to6y

barryd said:


> If your not that bothered about campsites (I rarely use them) then I wouldnt be worried about going into mainland Europe in peak season. Aires and Stellplatz etc are generally still cheap or free and wild camping is always free!
> 
> Also July and August is when its all happening. Yes popular places will be busy but there will be lots going on to keep you and the kids amused. Of course having a motorhome means that once your sick of the crowds peace and solitude is never far away, you just drive off and find it!
> 
> We are nearly always away in July and August, never had a problem and can always find a place on your own or not crowded. (best for the weather as well)


We are thinking when we first start we will prob want to go to fun kid holiday type places, so more campsites than aires, swimming, sun, sand, sea, lakes...these types of places are going to be busy I assume. I had a quick look at booking a few places and many are already full....I was thinking I could just book these places a few days in advance, a little like motels when driving across the states, but obviously it doesn't work like that!

Another option we are considering is trying to bring things forwad and leave possible 1 June!


----------



## to6y

GMJ said:


> Hi Toby
> 
> Great thread
> 
> I have mostly skim read it so apologies if I am suggesting some things that others have.
> 
> - You mentioned solar panels - great - but maybe also consider a second habitation battery as well? Long cold Scandinavian nights might drain the battery especially if keeping kids entertained.


Power and Internet will be key to being able to work for me, so I think my business will stretch to a few panels, batteries and Sat internet!



GMJ said:


> - Someone mentioned hiring a car when you need it. This is the way my mind is heading as we are planning on getting something large and wintering in S Spain when we retire and I think it will work out the most cost effective and sensible option for us. From your pov you could build in car hire days to your itinerary; base yourself somewhere for a few days in your MH; then use the hire car to see the sights that you cant reach via bikes/scooters/public transport etc. I guess you will be home educating your nippers so perhaps this is something they could get involved in (the planning of the days, that is).


This was exactly the point of taking a car...we would park the MH somewhere for 2 days, then use a car to visit the area and then move the motorhome 100 miles and use car again i.e. Monday morning we are in Oxford, use car to explore. Between 17:00-20:00 Monday evening we drive MH, tow car to Cambridge. Use car to explore Tuesday and Wednesday, then Wednesday 17:00-20:00 we drive to Norwich. Use car to explore Thursday and Friday, then Friday 17:00-20:00 we drive to XXXXX etc



GMJ said:


> - Stock up on cheap DVDs. We buy ones from Poundland (which are reconditioned I think) and also HMV do many unused films that start at £3 a piece. Don't get me wrong, we don't sit there glued to the TV when we are away but sometimes when its rubbish weather, its nice to watch a film together. Also you cannot always guarantee TV reception even with satellites. I guess you are well IT enabled/literate from reading the thread but having the option of having a DVD on for the kids does free up your laptop!
> 
> Lastly, no one seems to have mentioned the most important piece of kit yet: the BBQ
> 
> Abso-bloody-lutely essential imho...I bought a decent size CADAC one which I can plug into the MH gas supply. I fully recommend it. I have not just done the BBQ stuff but you can also do wok meals; paella; pizzas...with the right plates for it.
> 
> I cant be doing with charcoal ones myself due to all the phaff with them but I suspect that this is an area split into 2 camps so there will no doubt be some comeback on this point
> 
> tbh if you have the space you could take both
> 
> It all sounds really great btw
> 
> Graham


DVD & BBQ, both essentials I agree


----------



## to6y

So, we have 99% decided through advice on this forum and via email to others that we are not going to tow a car.

However we are actually now wondering if we take a MH + a normal car...may be my wife's current Peugeot 3008 Hybrid.

She could then drive this car with or without the kids and dog comfortably and I could drive the MH.

She could drive car off in morning with kids to visit xxx, I could work in van for a few hours in the morning, then drive ~50 miles park it and go and join via via scooter/taxi/bike/bus.

Obviously this increases the cost in fuel...but I don't really care...convenience is key.

This means that I never have to tow anything (even and empty trailer) around mountain roads...that scares me.

If we were driving a long distance i.e. hundreds of miles in a day directly between A and B not stopping on way then we could attach the car via 'A' frame to MH and tow that way....when not in use we store in garage.

I recognise that 'A' frames are questionable in Europe (which put us off them originally), but we are wonder if it doesn't really matter...if we get stopped by police, my wife just gets out of MH and drives car. We pay fine, then appeal later and possible win due to Geneva convention by stating legal in our home country!

Opinions? 

PS, I like this idea simply because i do not see how it is going to work using the MH to visit places, wife and kids get out, I stay and work...hour later they come back and say drive 2 miles to XXX, they get out, I work for 20 mins, they come back and say drive to XXX etc....I would get nothing done!


----------



## erneboy

I would think going round Europe in two vehicles quite an unsuitable idea and when you become separated it will be a nuisance. If you want to take a car with you it'll be far better towed.

We tow. It needs a little more thought than just driving the van but it's fine. Though the hire idea is a good one too.

A lot can be done on bicycles, especially electric ones. When the weather is nice I often go shopping on the bike in preference to taking the car. I'm quite happy to do an 8 or 10 km round trip shopping and parking is never a problem for the bikes. It's a perfect way to explore, Alan.


----------



## HurricaneSmith

I've driven in a two vehicle convoy and it can be quite painful.

One wrong move in a town and it's pure luck whether you both meet up again. Traffic lights frequently separate (see the thread regarding Poole) and unless you have a pre-agreed plan, the only way of finding each other is by phone.

I won't be doing it again. :serious:


----------



## to6y

We wouldnt be in convey.

Take my Oxford, Cambridge, Norwich example above slightly further...

Monday morning we are in Oxford, my wife and kids leave in the morning and go to Blenheim Palace they then drive to Bletchley park in afternoon. I work in MH in morning (missing trip to Blenheim & Bletchley) and then drive MH to somewhere around Cambridge and park. I then send SMS to my wife with GPS location of MH where she drives to in the evening. 

Tuesday morning we are in Cambridge, my wife and kids leave in morning and go into the city centre, I work for few hours then around lunchtime, I go and meet them and spend the rest of the day with them.

Wednesday morning, my wife leaves first thing and drives to see xxxx, I work for few hours and then drive MH and park 1/2 mile away from xxxx and use scooter to go and meet them. 

i.e. car and MH are totally separate to one another...we use MH as mobile house (not as vehicle to move around and see things)


----------



## HurricaneSmith

Strewth!! At my age I'd never cope with that agenda. :frown2:

I'd think it was Tuesday (when it wasn't) and end up somewhere else. :surprise:

You are clearly better organised than me. :crying:


----------



## jiwawa

I'm just wondering about your schedule: "wife leaves first thing...", "between 1700hrs and 2000hrs we drive... "

Forgive me for saying, but it sounds like a military operation - miles away from what motorhoming is for many of us - and if your children are anything like ours were at that age, they're not biddable soldiers! 

But I'm sure that style works for many with a lot more energy than I have!


----------



## Suenliam

Be careful of information overload:laugh::laugh::laugh:
If you are away for anything over a few weeks then it is not reasonably feasible to do touristy/education visits type things every day. Particularly in the warmer weather the children will not want to be in the MH disturbing you. They will be out on their bikes zooming around the campsite with their new found pals and playing in the play area if you are on even a fairly basic campsite. Your wife may have problems keeping an eye on them though:wink2:

Sue


----------



## daffodil

JWW,

I agree totally ,I think it was summed up by the words to be used as a Mobile house not as a vehicle to drive around in and see things ,that is not motor homing to me 

If I was going to do what the op is planning, I would buy a very big yank job, and have a separate car to bomb about in as obviously cost and money do not seem to be an issue, so why skimp on comfort and convenience


Obviously this increases the cost in fuel...but I don't really care...convenience is key.


----------



## GMJ

Toby

I am following your plan and I think it makes total sense. That way the nippers get the sights (and the important educational input) whilst you work. You can then pick and choose which days/part of days you spend at work or with the family, thereby getting the best of everything. 

If the car plus MH thing sounds like a plan to you then go for it. You sound like the sort of chap who would be able and willing to amend plans as you go along anyway so if it didnt work out...try something else

Graham


----------



## to6y

JWW said:


> I'm just wondering about your schedule: "wife leaves first thing...", "between 1700hrs and 2000hrs we drive... "
> 
> Forgive me for saying, but it sounds like a military operation - miles away from what motorhoming is for many of us - and if your children are anything like ours were at that age, they're not biddable soldiers!
> 
> But I'm sure that style works for many with a lot more energy than I have!


LOL

I am trying to explain in written format on a forum our thoughts...I do not think for one moment we would be so strict with our timings!


----------



## to6y

Suenliam said:


> Be careful of information overload:laugh::laugh::laugh:
> If you are away for anything over a few weeks then it is not reasonably feasible to do touristy/education visits type things every day. Particularly in the warmer weather the children will not want to be in the MH disturbing you. They will be out on their bikes zooming around the campsite with their new found pals and playing in the play area if you are on even a fairly basic campsite. Your wife may have problems keeping an eye on them though:wink2:
> 
> Sue


Totally agree, we would not be doing full on activities / educational trips all day everyday and there would be a good deal of fun relaxing on a campsite swimming (especially in the summer).

However what we are proposing is slightly different that typical MH holidaying where you are going away to have fun and nothing else.

I think this is also slightly different to a retired couple (or indeed a younger couple) full timing in a van...specifically as we have to educate the children.

If we lived in a house and home educated our children they would be learning at a table much of the time...what we are proposing is teach our children via life experiences rather than books...it is more complicated that that, but again without writing a book on a forum I hope you get what I mean.


----------



## to6y

daffodil said:


> JWW,
> 
> I agree totally ,I think it was summed up by the words to be used as a Mobile house not as a vehicle to drive around in and see things ,that is not motor homing to me
> 
> If I was going to do what the op is planning, I would buy a very big yank job, and have a separate car to bomb about in as obviously cost and money do not seem to be an issue, so why skimp on comfort and convenience
> 
> Obviously this increases the cost in fuel...but I don't really care...convenience is key.


Exactly 

I don't think we are "motorhoming", we are simply having a mobile house that we shift around every few days, once a week, once a fortnight, everyday...who knows.

Cost is obviously important to everyone (unless I win Euromillions tomorrow), but an extra thousand pounds a year in fuel is irrelevant if it gives us a sensible solution.


----------



## nicholsong

Toby

Although I have not posted for several pages I have been following the topic and it is very interesting how it, and yor thoughts have developed.

I had thougth of posting much earlier about a car separate fom a trailer, but was deterred because of an earlier comment of yours about the rest of the family occupying themselves in the rear of the MH while you drove.

Now that you are thinking of car without trailer, can I take you back to your thought about starting off without a car and buying one later? It might test whether or not you need one.

There is a Caveat to that idea - which is that if you buy in a foreign country you need a registered address and it has to go back there for MOT(or equivalent). Therefore I wonder whether a tour of UK for 1-2 months would help you decide whether you need a car or not. You could even try taking your car and, maybe hiring a trailer for part of the period, and comparing the different set-ups and pros/cons.

At the end of the trial you would still be in the UK to buy any car/trailer if you decide you need to take one or both and everything would be registered in one country.

Geoff


----------



## barryd

Not sure if I agree with a tour of the UK Geoff to find out. I think a car or secondary transport over here is much more desirable than in mainland Europe as we are overcrowded, there is nowhere to park and there are no Aires. Maybe this is why Toby is keen to have a car. I stick by what I said earlier. Try it without a car first. You may be surprised. It would be a shame to have to drive in two vehicles as well as part of the fun is the journey together really. Think the end head banging bit of Bohemian Rhapsody as you fly through the Alps together (or is that just me? )

Your really not going to know how it will pan out until you start off. You can always add a car later. 

Be careful what you wish for though. I was a successful business man when I set off in 2008, now look at me.  At some stage I turned back into the Hippy I was before I started work and now we just run around Europe avoiding it whenever we can.


----------



## to6y

barryd said:


> Not sure if I agree with a tour of the UK Geoff to find out. I think a car or secondary transport over here is much more desirable than in mainland Europe as we are overcrowded, there is nowhere to park and there are no Aires. Maybe this is why Toby is keen to have a car.


Mainland Europe is less busy that UK without a doubt however finding parking for a 8.5m van in Paris would be just as hard as London.

Turning up at Versailles in a 8.5 van I'm sure could be a problem in summer peak season.

Visiting war graves in northern France...driving around little lanes, parking in little cemetery car parks perhaps not appropriate.

etc

Perhaps parking a van and then using car to visit everything interesting within a 100 mile radius then moving van and repeating for 20,000 miles is possible...

If it was just myself and my wife, I think we'd get a smaller van prob a VW transporter or similar use that in a "normal" motorhome style (perhaps stopping at B&B/gite etc as well)...but we have the kids so slightly different solution needed.


----------



## to6y

nicholsong said:


> Now that you are thinking of car without trailer, can I take you back to your thought about starting off without a car and buying one later? It might test whether or not you need one.


I'm currently thinking we'd do it the other way around, start with a MH, car and 'A' frame and then sell the car if we found we didn't need it.

...perhaps even deliberately buy a cheap car (couple grand max) so that if we got screwed over the price by the local garage if we came to sell it we didnt care


----------



## nicholsong

barryd said:


> Think the end head banging bit of Bohemian Rhapsody as you fly through the Alps together (or is that just me? )
> 
> B.


Ignoring practical bits(Barry and I have both made points about car; need in England - but not so much Scotland -versus buying/registering abroad.

Turning to Barry's

"Think the end head banging bit of Bohemian Rhapsody as you fly through the Alps together (or is that just me?"

Toby, that reminds me of taking my boat (just a MH on water - bit slower) through the French canals - got over the watershed - downhill to Med - Spring sun shining - waft of Provence herbs - Dire Straits at full blast - BLISS!

Let the family live the dream:smile2::smile2::smile2:

Geoff

P.S It was Mark Knoeffler on the guitar, not Barry.


----------



## to6y

nicholsong said:


> Turning to Barry's
> 
> "Think the end head banging bit of Bohemian Rhapsody as you fly through the Alps together (or is that just me?"
> 
> Toby, that reminds me of taking my boat (just a MH on water - bit slower) through the French canals - got over the watershed - downhill to Med - Spring sun shining - waft of Provence herbs - Dire Straits at full blast - BLISS!
> 
> Let the family live the dream:smile2::smile2::smile2:


If our plan works, I think it would be great...surely following the Danube from Germany/Austria? to Black Sea would be far more rewarding that learning about it in a classroom!

However the flip side of that coin is that we suck so much at teaching in general when the kids try and integrate back into "normal" life they are years behind! Or perhaps they'll find it impossible to conform into society's "norms" and end up wasting their lives....a scary thought


----------



## aldra

Well I don't usually post this

It's so long ago

We set off to Israel in a very old Bedford Dormabile in the 70s

With three kids

I was pregnant with twins but we didn't know at the time

It took 6 months

The Dormabile didnt make it

But we did

Lived there 8 yrs, three kids born there

Now in our 70s

We say

It's how it is

Go for it

Aldra


----------



## Sprinta

I've just seen this thread for the first time and all I can add is my hope you are able to find a realistic solution to the adventure ahead. And what a way to spend your formative years visiting so many foreign coutries and the different cultures - your kids should relish it.

I'm definitely jealous.

btw Aldra - call Shadow the hound from Heel - we know what you mean :grin2:


----------



## Grizzly

Apologies if this has been covered. I am on a slow link and find keeping up with the thread difficult.

Have you though about suggesting to you children that they keep a record of their travels ? A scrapbook is good as their writing skills will not be up to longer written journals. Another though that occurs is a private online blog - for invited people to view only. This could include video and audio if they have the use of a mobile phone. 

If their current schools were happy then I would suggest their current classes have access to the blog and it can be made 2 way by Skype calls. This will ensure they keep up with friends, a school environment and will develop many different skills, benefitting both them and their friends. I've not taught in primary schools but all teachers welcome projects !

It's not too early to get them involved in planning, routes, phrases they might find useful, a little about the country they visit first and so in. They will make friends wherever they go but it still helps to keep grounded with what their contemporaries are doing.

A quote from one of my children when confronted with a playground of young Czechs: " At least they smile in English ".

A practical note. The roll up vacuum bags are excellent for extra clothes etc. Pack them full, roll all the air out and you can get several stacked in the space of the unsquashed clothes. Don' t buy cheap ones though as they re-inflate.

Enjoy your journey and I hope all goes very well.

G


----------



## Gretchibald

Can't add much to all that good advice except maybe about the dog and scooter in the garage. I have a scooter in the garage and there is no smell of petrol fumes in the MH but I have read where others said they were unable to sleep in the bed above the garage because of it. Maybe depends on the quality of scooter and MH , but just be aware that the dog is in there with the maybe 'smelly' scooter.


----------



## jiwawa

Grizzly, can you tell me which vacuum bags you use please? I got some but, yes, they reinflated!


----------



## barryd

to6y said:


> Mainland Europe is less busy that UK without a doubt however finding parking for a 8.5m van in Paris would be just as hard as London.
> 
> Turning up at Versailles in a 8.5 van I'm sure could be a problem in summer peak season.
> 
> Visiting war graves in northern France...driving around little lanes, parking in little cemetery car parks perhaps not appropriate.
> 
> etc
> 
> Perhaps parking a van and then using car to visit everything interesting within a 100 mile radius then moving van and repeating for 20,000 miles is possible...
> 
> If it was just myself and my wife, I think we'd get a smaller van prob a VW transporter or similar use that in a "normal" motorhome style (perhaps stopping at B&B/gite etc as well)...but we have the kids so slightly different solution needed.


Well for Paris you would park somewhere near a rail station and take the train. I would probably even do that in a car. As for the war graves etc I can assure you that you will have no problem parking any size motorhome right next to most of them. Yes really! I can even give you a list and GPS of various WW2 spots in Normandy where you can park legally and safely overnight. Even Ypres in Belgium at the Famous Menin Gate you can park around the corner overnight for free no bother at all.

I will probably get shot down in flames for this but have you considered a Caravan?


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

barryd said:


> Well for Paris you would park somewhere near a rail station and take the train. I would probably even do that in a car. As for the war graves etc I can assure you that you will have no problem parking any size motorhome right next to most of them. Yes really! I can even give you a list and GPS of various WW2 spots in Normandy where you can park legally and safely overnight. Even Ypres in Belgium at the Famous Menin Gate you can park around the corner overnight for free no bother at all.
> 
> I will probably get shot down in flames for this but have you considered a Caravan?


Oi geezer, would you be so kind as to PM them to moi, donky****e.


----------



## to6y

Grizzly said:


> Apologies if this has been covered. I am on a slow link and find keeping up with the thread difficult.
> 
> Have you though about suggesting to you children that they keep a record of their travels ? A scrapbook is good as their writing skills will not be up to longer written journals. Another though that occurs is a private online blog - for invited people to view only. This could include video and audio if they have the use of a mobile phone.


On list of things to do 



Grizzly said:


> If their current schools were happy then I would suggest their current classes have access to the blog and it can be made 2 way by Skype calls. This will ensure they keep up with friends, a school environment and will develop many different skills, benefitting both them and their friends. I've not taught in primary schools but all teachers welcome projects !


We have considered, and may do this but there could be complications....but on list to consider already 



Grizzly said:


> It's not too early to get them involved in planning, routes, phrases they might find useful, a little about the country they visit first and so in. They will make friends wherever they go but it still helps to keep grounded with what their contemporaries are doing.


At 7 & 5, especially the 5 (and 1 week) I don't think at this stage they could help with the planning...however nearer the time and during our adventure, planning the route, what to see, research area/history (reading, computer skills, being able to think logically etc etc), then reviewing and adapting plan, writing reports, postcards, scrapbooks, blogs etc etc perhaps based around topics "viking", "romans", "2nd WW", "rivers" etc etc



Grizzly said:


> A quote from one of my children when confronted with a playground of young Czechs: " At least they smile in English ".


Brilliant!



Grizzly said:


> A practical note. The roll up vacuum bags are excellent for extra clothes etc. Pack them full, roll all the air out and you can get several stacked in the space of the unsquashed clothes. Don' t buy cheap ones though as they re-inflate.


Not on list, we have used before at home though...do little handheld hoovers have the correct size nozzle to suck air out?



Grizzly said:


> Enjoy your journey and I hope all goes very well.
> 
> G


Thanks, seems a long way off at the moment


----------



## to6y

Gretchibald said:


> Can't add much to all that good advice except maybe about the dog and scooter in the garage. I have a scooter in the garage and there is no smell of petrol fumes in the MH but I have read where others said they were unable to sleep in the bed above the garage because of it. Maybe depends on the quality of scooter and MH , but just be aware that the dog is in there with the maybe 'smelly' scooter.


I am thinking 95% of the time the scooter will be on an easylift.

But saying that, we need to really work out how best to accommodate the dog...main body or garage?!?!


----------



## to6y

barryd said:


> Well for Paris you would park somewhere near a rail station and take the train. I would probably even do that in a car. As for the war graves etc I can assure you that you will have no problem parking any size motorhome right next to most of them. Yes really! I can even give you a list and GPS of various WW2 spots in Normandy where you can park legally and safely overnight. Even Ypres in Belgium at the Famous Menin Gate you can park around the corner overnight for free no bother at all.


All possible I am sure...but still doesnt necessarily stop the MH having to move around during the day while I am trying to do a couple of hours work.



barryd said:


> I will probably get shot down in flames for this but have you considered a Caravan?


I have considered but I get the impression they are more suited for stays of 2 weeks on campsites rather than 1/2/3 day stays on free/wild/aire.

A caravan also just doesnt appeal quite so much!


----------



## jiwawa

Caravans aren't allowed on most Aires - maybe all?


----------



## to6y

Was thinking about washing and cleaning last night...

Currently at home our washing machine runs pretty much 24 hours a day...how do you cope in a MH?

Does anybody use one of these on a full time regular basis?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-Ideas-Portable-Washing-caravans/dp/B003V43Z1S/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1425720207&sr=8-3&keywords=twin+tub+washing+machine

Also, especially in winter, when we come back from a dog walk, the kids are normally soaking wet and covered in mud...at home we jettison all clothes in utility room and run for the shower.

Are there any tricks we need to learn about keeping the MH clean as I'm sure with our kids it could quickly become pretty grubby!


----------



## erneboy

We have exactly that machine and it works very well. A bit labour intensive though. It's quite large so storing it may be a problem.


----------



## sallylillian

to6y said:


> Was thinking about washing and cleaning last night...
> 
> Currently at home our washing machine runs pretty much 24 hours a day...how do you cope in a MH?
> 
> Does anybody use one of these on a full time regular basis?
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-Ideas-...0207&sr=8-3&keywords=twin+tub+washing+machine
> 
> Also, especially in winter, when we come back from a dog walk, the kids are normally soaking wet and covered in mud...at home we jettison all clothes in utility room and run for the shower.
> 
> Are there any tricks we need to learn about keeping the MH clean as I'm sure with our kids it could quickly become pretty grubby!


Having one of these fitted


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

We try to take clothes which are easy to hand wash, anything ales goes to the Launderette as needed.


----------



## nicholsong

Toby

This thread is getting long - and my memory short, so i cannot remember if you are looking at MHs with a garage.

I think you will have to discipline everyone to never take outdoors footwear beyond the step/lobby.

Fit an outside shower - in garage or locker for hosing down footwear, and if you can find suitable material of leg-wear, e.g. golfers trousers, do the same with those. If you have a garage they can hang in there over some sort of drip-tray, otherwise in shower until they stop dripping.

We, and many others, like carpets but for cleaning purposes you may have to opt for the more washable floor of the MH as is.

For the washing machine there has been a thread recently on here with posts from people with experience - try to search. If you do run one it needs to be powered through an sufficiently rated inverter - from memory some people seem to manage with a 300W or 500w for some models of small washing machines, but even they are likely to be quite a load on your batteries.

Of course the other answer to this problem is to stay South and live in shorts and flip-flops:wink2::smile2:

Geoff


----------



## listerdiesel

Go to a regular site and use their washing machines or sinks, no real need to carry a washing machine around with you. Our favourite site has all that stuff and Mirage jets twice a day as well :grin2::grin2:

We don't use aires, most places we stay at are regular caravan/motorhome sites which have most facilities. When we go to shows as exhibitors we are only away for four days or so, no need to wash anything, just take enough clothes with you.

We did think about something in the Mercedes, but decided it wasn't worth the hassle.

Peter


----------



## Stanner

to6y said:


> Are there any tricks we need to learn about keeping the MH clean as I'm sure with our kids it could quickly become pretty grubby!


Don't let the kids inside - make them run along behind that has the added advantage that they are too tired to squabble all the time as well.


----------



## Grizzly

The bags we use are the roll up kind which have a valve to ensure that once air is squeezed out it is not sucked back in again.
We don' t use the ones you use a vacuum cleaner to deflate.

I think ours were Betterware or Kleeneze but they are quite old now.

G


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

Knock something up to fasten to the back wheels with some sort of baffle in it, paint it silver no one will notice, wash as a you go > >


----------



## jiwawa

I can't imagine how you would cope washing (and worse, drying) using 1 of these while moving around so much.

They _are_I labour-intensive and time-consuming. Far better, it seems to me, to either use a campsite laundry, or a town laundry, while you enjoy doing something else.

Mind you, I've never owned one, tho I have used one.


----------



## peejay

Most of our clothing in the van is easy care stuf and doesn't need ironing, mainly stuff from Rohan which is brilliant.
We just handwash stuff on a daily basis and hang it up outside or inside in bad weather and its ready to wear again once dry.

For the occasional bigger stuff like sheets and quilt covers we just use a launderette, they're not difficult to find all over Europe.
In France there are a growing number of 24hr outdoor machines at the bigger supermarkets, especially Super-U's.
Judy goes and does the shopping while I fill up the van with diesel and bung the washing in, job done. :wink:










Pete


----------



## erneboy

JWW said:


> I can't imagine how you would cope washing (and worse, drying) using 1 of these while moving around so much.
> 
> They _are_I labour-intensive and time-consuming. Far better, it seems to me, to either use a campsite laundry, or a town laundry, while you enjoy doing something else.
> 
> Mind you, I've never owned one, tho I have used one.


Ours only gets used when there isn't a better option and when the weather is OK for drying.

Mrs Eb wants a domestic washer dryer in the garage, but that would depend on our being on mains water and drainage as well as a good ampage from the mains electricity supply, plus they're very heavy and bulky. There no water supply or drainage anywhere near the garage. Also we have them in a couple of rental flats and they take ages to do a wash and dry. All in all it's not on as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## aldra

to6y said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Have you come across a good website, blog, book or similar that lists good dog walks across Europe?
> 
> When you're moving daily, how do you find good places to walk your dogs? Is it just a case or stopping in sensible areas...near lake, wood etc + asking locals?


You do not need to worry

Sometimes loads of good walks

Sometimes not so good

Hey that's life

Sometimes not too good Aires
Sometimes brilliant ones

The hound from ****

Takes what he gets

Same as us

Mostly he gets a fantastic 8 week holiday

Aldra


----------



## to6y

sallylillian said:


> Having one of these fitted
> http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00DJ3HMU6/ref=pe_29721_63826191_em_1p_0_ti


Didn't find the one you listed...did find this one though:
http://www.johnlewis.com/zanussi-zw...a-energy-rating-1300rpm-spin-white/p231353059

You even get little dryers:





===

Next task is to work out power consumption...5 mins thinking and:

if we use 50-100 amp a day.

perhaps 3 x 100 amp batteries + 200 watt (60 amp) solar panels

does that sound sensible?

obviously a more detailed analysis needs to be done!


----------



## erneboy

Bear in mind that lots of continental camp site will have power supplies of perhaps 4 to 6 amps. I know very little about washing machines but I note that the one you link to is cold fill, presumably then it heats the water it uses. If so that's probably quite a powerful heater.

I do know that they use quite a bit of water, so you probably can't do much washing on water from your tank, you will need to be connected to mains. Ditto for drainage.

Also think about where it would fit and how much plumbing would be required.


----------



## listerdiesel

to6y said:


> Next task is to work out power consumption...5 mins thinking and:
> 
> if we use 50-100 amp a day.
> 
> perhaps 3 x 100 amp batteries + 200 watt (60 amp) solar panels
> 
> does that sound sensible?
> 
> obviously a more detailed analysis needs to be done!


Detailed Analysis:

200W solar will give you about 12A charge rate on a good day, more if you are far south and the sun is overhead most days, less in the UK. I was getting 3.5A out of 2 X 80W panels on the weekend.

The maths for the panels is something like 36 cells giving 0.5V per cell so 18V. At 100W (and that is absolute maximum) that is 5.5A, times two = 11A.

There is some gain in the conversion to battery charging voltage, but you have to remember that these are PEAK ratings, not what you will get every day.

So if you use 100AH per day and can reliably get 8 hours of peak power (unlikely) then you will fall short of the 100AH plus a bit extra for losses.

Doesn't matter how many batteries you fit, you MUST have more than enough charging of some sort or other to replace it each day, otherwise your available battery capacity will reduce daily until the batteries won't support the load.

We have 4 X 100W panels with 450AH of battery and twin 50A chargers. If we look as though we cannot support what we are using out of the batteries, a single night on a site with EHU will fully charge them up, and we can do some washing, empty the toilet etc while we are there.

Efficient use of resources!

Peter


----------



## to6y

erneboy said:


> Bear in mind that lots of continental camp site will have power supplies of perhaps 4 to 6 amps. I know very little about washing machines but I note that the one you link to is cold fill, presumably then it heats the water it uses. If so that's probably quite a powerful heater.
> 
> I do know that they use quite a bit of water, so you probably can't do much washing on water from your tank, you will need to be connected to mains. Ditto for drainage.
> 
> Also think about where it would fit and how much plumbing would be required.


40l per cycle
tank is MH looking at is 230l

we going to be in warm climates most of the time anyway so don't expect to do much washing, sheets, towels, few clothes...perhaps 3 washes a week.

would prob only use if on aire/campsite with water/power

re amp of continental camp...i know little about power at moment...but can we not just use EHU to battery - battery to inverter and then not worry about amp-age of EHU

re plumbing - no idea but if too hard i'll bin the whole thing pretty quick!


----------



## erneboy

I think you may be underestimating the amount of washing. Four? people in a warm climate probably = two shirts a day each for example.

Also batteries and an inverter won't run a washing machine heating water for very long, unless your battery bank is huge. I doubt your charger would be able to keep up, Alan.


----------



## to6y

erneboy said:


> I think you may be underestimating the amount of washing. Four? people in a warm climate probably = two shirts a day each for example.
> 
> Also batteries and an inverter won't run a washing machine heating water for very long, unless your battery bank is huge. I doubt your charger would be able to keep up, Alan.


Perhaps we do need to do more washing?!?! Will ask the boss!

That Zanussi uses 0.57kWh per cycle....lets assume a cycle is 1 hour.

Therefore 2.5 amp...is that correct?


----------



## erneboy

Sounds remarkably low, especially given that it needs to heat the water http://www.answers.com/Q/How_much_amperage_does_a_washing_machine_draw

I would expect the water heating to need 1.5 to 2kw at least, just a guess, but that's 6 to 8 amps approx.

Power consumption per cycle isn't a lot of help really since presumably it's an average and will vary depending on length of cycle, water temp etc.

The actual rating will be on the machine and I'm sure it's somewhere in the manual if you can find it. I imagine that will be the maximum, Alan.


----------



## to6y

to6y said:


> Perhaps we do need to do more washing?!?! Will ask the boss!
> 
> That Zanussi uses 0.57kWh per cycle....lets assume a cycle is 1 hour.
> 
> Therefore 2.5 amp...is that correct?


In fact error, I was dividing 570 by 240...I should have divided by 12...therefore will use 47.5 amp


----------



## barryd

Also don't forget when calculating battery usage you cannot let the battery just run flat. So a 100AH battery is really only useful for half that amount.

See this chart.










So really you cannot let them discharge below 12.1 v or 50% without risking damage and / diminishing performance.

I would scrub the idea of taking a proper washing machine with you Toby. Its bonkers. Remember you are effectively still camping. Space, weight and storage is still crucial even in monster size vans. Once you get underway I can guarantee you will think its a waste of space.

I dont have kids so perhaps do not appreciate how much muck they make but I am pretty good at making myself and everything around me messy and we never find doing the washing an issue. (well I don't as I don't do it )


----------



## to6y

I have not got my head around the whole power thing at the moment but I tend to agree that a full on washing machine seems a little bit of an overkill.

Back to original please of:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003V43Z1S/ref=s9_simh_gw_p265_d0_i2?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-5&pf_rd_r=0DWMFV6J85336DDDRZ6Y&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=455346027&pf_rd_i=468294


----------



## to6y

Re Power:

I have not totally got my head around this topic but my take so far is...

MH (when bought normally) has 12V and 240V sockets...12V run off leisure battery, 240V run off EHU.

Being able to use the 240V sockets while off EHU seems sensible, therefore using a small sine wave inverter (~150W) wired into the consumer unit to distribute power to all 240V sockets for normal devices (laptop, tv, sat etc). Some sort of auto switch and/or manual off switch needed for inverter.

Being able to use a Microwave or hairdryer also sounds sensible, so having a large inverter (~1000W) wired to a dedicated [new] socket in habitation sections sounds sensible as well. Manual inverter off switch needed. If we do get a washing machine (will depend on charging capacity), we could get second socket in garage coming off this larger inverter.

Being able to use the air con while off EHU also seems good - if we leave dog in and go out for example somewhere we dont have EHU. The problem here is that air con is going to use massive amounts of power so need massive power generation and/or batteries. Underfloor air con seems to be less power hungry as it takes cool air from using the van...anyway more research needed into air con.

Aldra - how do you keep your van cool while off EHU if you need to leave dog behind on hot day?

===

Power generation:

1. engine alternator
2. solar (auto tracking better but perhaps not necessary around med)
3. generator (perhaps only necessary for air con while off EHU???...however perhaps if i go crazy with solar and cover the whole roof I'll be able to generate enough so wont need geny?!?!)

===

Batteries:

Perhaps two groups of leisure batteries:

group 1 = "normal" leisure batteries for everyday use...fridge, lights, 12V sockets and smaller inverter
group 2 = "heavy use" leisure batteries for the more extreme stuff...air con and larger inverter

There seem to be such things as auto split charger units that automatically divert power generated from (alternator, solar or geny) to whichever battery needs it.

Having these two groups of batteries means that our "normal" leisure batteries should always be available even if we leave the air con on all the time while off EHU...obviously the air con would drain the "heavy use" leisure battery and switch off...but after xx time, "heavy use" leisure battery would have been partially re-charged (via alternator, solar or geny) and therefore the air con would kick in again.

Does this sound doable?

Does this sound sensible?

Am I barking up the wrong tree?


----------



## erneboy

Spend a lot more time finding out about power.

You seem to me to be overestimating what you can expect fro a small inverter, certainly wiring it in to all the sockets doesn't make sense as it won't run much any way. 

To run aircon or washing machine in any useful way from a large inverter would require a very big battery bank and you'd still be faced with recharging them and all that weight and storage space.

It'll want a big generator to do all that too, even one thing at a time, aircon/washing machine. 

Sounds to me as though you should be looking at RVs so that the generator along with the switchability is built it. Some even have a washing machine if you buy the right one. 

Your problem is likely then to be managing to stay under 7.5 tons unless you don't need to?


----------



## to6y

erneboy said:


> Spend a lot more time finding out about power.
> 
> You seem to me to be overestimating what you can expect fro a small inverter, certainly wiring it in to all the sockets doesn't make sense as it won't run much any way.


Info taken from here:
http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/187-members-motorhoming-guides/52559-inverters.html



erneboy said:


> To run aircon or washing machine in any useful way from a large inverter would require a very big battery bank and you'd still be faced with recharging them and all that weight and storage space.


Def need big battery and big power generation...may not be possible I guess, still trying to figure it out



erneboy said:


> It'll want a big generator to do all that too, even one thing at a time, aircon/washing machine.
> 
> Sounds to me as though you should be looking at RVs so that the generator along with the switchability is built it. Some even have a washing machine if you buy the right one.
> 
> Your problem is likely then to be managing to stay under 7.5 tons unless you don't need to?


Don't want big RV, will bin air con off EHU before getting RV!


----------



## to6y

So:
http://www.truma.com/uk/en/air-conditioning/aventa-comfort.php

uses 4.2 amp at 230 volt

therefore 80.5 amp at 12 volt

so if we could generate more than 80.5 amp per hour air con would stay on.

will only need air con in med, in med will be sunny and therefore solar will work well.

so 100w solar will generate ~8 amp per hour so 1000w solar will be enough

this however is too much to have on roof, 500w is probably max, therefore only ~40 amp per hour generated.

so need to think about batteries...

lets say we want to leave air con on for 5 hours, this means 80.5 x 5 = 402.5

less power generated from solar ~40 x 5 = 200

therefore need to use 202.5 of stored power to keep going for the 5 hours.

if we have these "heavy duty" batteries which are isolated from "normal" leisure batteries, so looking only at "heavy duty" ones

we would need 400 amp batteries as they can only be depleted by half.

---

i am not sure it is sensible solution but is my thought process correct?


----------



## jiwawa

Batteries are heavy - to get c.400A battery power, you're probably talking 80-100kg?


----------



## to6y

JWW said:


> Batteries are heavy - to get c.400A battery power, you're probably talking 80-100kg?


We should have available payload, over a tonne I guess so other than not wanting to haul around too much stuff simply for fuel efficiency that should be ok.


----------



## listerdiesel

Converting 230V watts or VA into 12V DC isn't an exact conversion. AC power is always expressed in VA and multiplied by the power factor to give Wayys.

So you have nasty inconvenient things like power factor and inverter losses to think about, always allow 10-15% losses when converting. Also, your battery starting voltage will probably be around 12.8V, so you gain a bit there.

Deep discharge batteries can go well below 50% capacity, but then they need recharging immediately, you should not leave lead-acid batteries in a semi-discharged condition for any length of time.

450AH of battery and something like a 2000VA sine-wave inverter would be a good match, but you'd need a 50A or more charger to put back what you have taken out in a reasonable amount of time.

Solar will do it but it is not reliable in output as the sun doesn't shine every day.

We have 450AH worth of battery, a 1500VA inverter and 400W of solar panels, plus twin 50A chargers which can operate as shore supplies on EHU.

Note that 1500VA or 1.5kVA is AC power before power factor is taken into account. A motor or flourescent light will have a low power factor of 0.6 or so, a purely resistive load such as tungsten light bulbs have a power factor of Unity or 1.

Multiply the VA of the inverter output by the power factor of the load to give a rating in kW.

If you run a motor with a power factor of 0.6, that will give you 900W out of your 1500VA inverter, you can improve a low power factor load by using a higher power factor load at the same time, so a motor and tungsten bulbs together will bring the power factor up to around 0.8pf and with it more usable output from the inverter.

Sorry for the technical stuff, but it is important.

Peter


----------



## barryd

I agree with Alan, the way you are talking is starting to sound more like RV territory to me and you don't want one. 

For power I would suggest you always look at a 12v solution first before thinking about inverters. There is nothing in our van we need an inverter for. Hair dryers have been discussed before and I don't think anyone has come up with an efficient solution that warrants taking one and 12v hair dryers are crap.

Go for as much solar as you can if your going to wild camp and use aires a lot but just keep thinking about payload as even with a Ton of payload you need to be careful. It will soon go especially if your sticking a Scooter in the garage.

There is a general opinion on here that you go with the minimum amount of stuff and find out what you REALLY need. 

Is Aircon essential? Maybe for some but after a week or two you acclimatise anyway. They can be noisy if your on a campsite where you have EHU and need too much power when off EHU. I imagine many for this reason are hardly used. Unless your heading for Spain or Greece in Mid summer I cant see why you would need it. Sounds like I am being negative about your choices but the words "Less is more" spring to mind.


----------



## to6y

listerdiesel said:


> Converting 230V watts or VA into 12V DC isn't an exact conversion. AC power is always expressed in VA and multiplied by the power factor to give Wayys.
> 
> So you have nasty inconvenient things like power factor and inverter losses to think about, always allow 10-15% losses when converting. Also, your battery starting voltage will probably be around 12.8V, so you gain a bit there.
> 
> Deep discharge batteries can go well below 50% capacity, but then they need recharging immediately, you should not leave lead-acid batteries in a semi-discharged condition for any length of time.
> 
> 450AH of battery and something like a 2000VA sine-wave inverter would be a good match, but you'd need a 50A or more charger to put back what you have taken out in a reasonable amount of time.
> 
> Solar will do it but it is not reliable in output as the sun doesn't shine every day.
> 
> We have 450AH worth of battery, a 1500VA inverter and 400W of solar panels, plus twin 50A chargers which can operate as shore supplies on EHU.


So basically, what I wrote and what you do is roughly the same and therefore it is possible to power air con for 5 hours from battery?



listerdiesel said:


> Note that 1500VA or 1.5kVA is AC power before power factor is taken into account. A motor or flourescent light will have a low power factor of 0.6 or so, a purely resistive load such as tungsten light bulbs have a power factor of Unity or 1.
> 
> Multiply the VA of the inverter output by the power factor of the load to give a rating in kW.
> 
> If you run a motor with a power factor of 0.6, that will give you 900W out of your 1500VA inverter, you can improve a low power factor load by using a higher power factor load at the same time, so a motor and tungsten bulbs together will bring the power factor up to around 0.8pf and with it more usable output from the inverter.
> 
> Sorry for the technical stuff, but it is important.
> 
> Peter


I think this second bit if I understand is about wasted power basically...would not having two inverters be better, a low powered one for little stuff and a high powered one for the air con and washing machine for example?


----------



## to6y

barryd said:


> ...and 12v hair dryers are crap.


so crap is ok but hound from **** is too offensive LOL


----------



## to6y

barryd said:


> Is Aircon essential? Maybe for some but after a week or two you acclimatise anyway. They can be noisy if your on a campsite where you have EHU and need too much power when off EHU. I imagine many for this reason are hardly used. Unless your heading for Spain or Greece in Mid summer I cant see why you would need it. Sounds like I am being negative about your choices but the words "Less is more" spring to mind.


At the moment I am just trying to understand the options I have.

The main reason I see for air con, is to leave dog behind in van at good temp...many would say that was bloody crazy i'm sure!


----------



## Ozzyjohn

to6y said:


> At the moment I am just trying to understand the options I have.
> 
> The main reason I see for air con, is to leave dog behind in van at good temp...many would say that was bloody crazy i'm sure!


Toby,

I'm not a dog owner - to be honest, I've never really liked dogs much - but leaving a dog in a motorhome where you are relying on limited battery power to keep it alive doesn't sound like a good idea.

My advice would be to start simply, and only add complexity when you have proved that you have to. Most people who have been motorhoming for a while have piles of stuff acquired because it seemed like a good idea at the time - when some experience teaches them that they didn't really need it at all.

Regards,
John


----------



## to6y

Ozzyjohn said:


> Toby,
> 
> I'm not a dog owner - to be honest, I've never really liked dogs much - but leaving a dog in a motorhome where you are relying on limited battery power to keep it alive doesn't sound like a good idea.


Keeping alive I think is a little extreme...it is more like keeping comfortable!

You can get temperature alarms that send SMS if temp in van goes over X...so the danger of coming back to a liquid chocolate lab is hopefully unlikely!



Ozzyjohn said:


> My advice would be to start simply, and only add complexity when you have proved that you have to. Most people who have been motorhoming for a while have piles of stuff acquired because it seemed like a good idea at the time - when some experience teaches them that they didn't really need it at all.
> 
> Regards,
> John


I like toys though


----------



## peaky

another option that does nt need power, to keep your dog cool in the van is a cooling coat !! we use one for our dog when we are working and have to leave her in the van,it basically looks like a dog coat made of chamis leather type material, you soak it in water first, lightly squeeze out and put on your dog, lasts at least four hours, we also put a fan on too, came back one day poor dog was shivering as I had nt squeezed the coat out enough and fan was on, !! outside temp was 25 degrees really works, they are expensive but a lot cheaper than air con.:grin2:


----------



## nicholsong

to6y said:


> Keeping alive I think is a little extreme...it is more like keeping comfortable!
> 
> You can get temperature alarms that send SMS if temp in van goes over X...so the danger of coming back to a liquid chocolate lab is hopefully unlikely!
> 
> I like toys though


I think you are going to have to throw some of your toys out of the pram:wink2::laugh:

Try hard to find the type of solutionsthat Peaky has just offered for the dog, plus easy wash/dry clothing etc.

You do not need an inverter to power/charge phones etc. because they work off low volts and can be operated from 12v sockets. An inverter produces 230v which has to be dropped back down for most devices to 4v-19v - very power wasteful.

From reading on here for last 5 years, I estimate that those of us that spend most of our time off EHU are doing it without huge power generation and using the sort of solutions above.

If I remember correctly you anticipate moving every 2-3 days. If so, a B2B from the alternator will give a lot of charging capacity, as your main source, compared with what may be iffy sun power, particularly in higher latitudes. You could even fit a larger, or second, alternator and extra battery capacity. In extremis, if stationary for longer, you could run the engine for 1/2 hour, but you cannot move the clouds away.

Lots of us seem to manage weeks away at a time this way without much compromise and enjoy ourselves.

Geoff


----------



## listerdiesel

When we had our alsation in the early 1970's, we were able to make up a collapsible shelter out of wire mesh panels, with a covering on top to keep the sun off her.

She could lay outside in the shelter or her lead was long enough for her to go under the caravan if she wanted to. 

With plenty of water in non-spillable bowls she could stay outside in the fresh air for long periods.

We had an awning, but it got quite stuffy inside, while the shelter had pretty much open sides to let breezes blow through.

Most days she would come with us, but if we knew we were going to look at something where she wouldn't be allowed, she could stay with the 'van and be comfortable.

She lived to 13 years old, we had to have her put down in 1986, just after we moved to Rushden.

Peter


----------



## to6y

nicholsong said:


> I think you are going to have to throw some of your toys out of the pram:wink2::laugh:
> 
> Try hard to find the type of solutionsthat Peaky has just offered for the dog, plus easy wash/dry clothing etc.
> 
> You do not need an inverter to power/charge phones etc. because they work off low volts and can be operated from 12v sockets. An inverter produces 230v which has to be dropped back down for most devices to 4v-19v - very power wasteful.
> 
> From reading on here for last 5 years, I estimate that those of us that spend most of our time off EHU are doing it without huge power generation and using the sort of solutions above.
> 
> If I remember correctly you anticipate moving every 2-3 days. If so, a B2B from the alternator will give a lot of charging capacity, as your main source, compared with what may be iffy sun power, particularly in higher latitudes. You could even fit a larger, or second, alternator and extra battery capacity. In extremis, if stationary for longer, you could run the engine for 1/2 hour, but you cannot move the clouds away.
> 
> Lots of us seem to manage weeks away at a time this way without much compromise and enjoy ourselves.
> 
> Geoff


Basically, I agree. In all likely hood I will keep things as simple as possible...but by the sounds of things, after the initial setup (installing panels, alternator, batteries, switching system and a few extra cable) there is nothing to worry about...it looks after itself.

Phones, tablets, laptops, lights, fans etc can all be charged via 12V - which we will use as much as possible.

However there are some products that I assume won't be able to....Sat TV decoder, wii (although we may not take), router, external hard drive, printer, bread maker (possibly) etc. These "low power" devices will need an inverter, perhaps my original idea of 150W inverter to all MH current 240V switches isn't enough...is only 13A and maybe we'll have more than one of these devices switched on at the same time...perhaps a 300-400W inverter would be sufficient. I read that there is no point getting a big inverter if you are never going to need the power as it is just a drain.

I liked the dog coat solution 

Having 400-500W of solar seems sensible, I can see us spending quite a lot of time at beaches in Croatia, Greece, Turkey, Italy, Spain etc perhaps not moving very much and therefore the alternator wouldn't be that great...whereas if we are further north, the alternator is better than solar. Generator would only be used as backup (expect it will sit in garage and not be used).

Seems sensible having large supply of batteries, this is just one off cost to buy and install and then i can forget about them.

So once setup, if we have good amount of batteries and power generation we will only need to find somewhere to fill/empty tanks...therefore less campsites need to be used as we won't need to charge batteries.

Most of the vans I'm looking at in Germany already have some sort of air con on them. I'm thinking the only thing we need to do to get some limited use out of this while off EHU is to split the batteries into two groups...just to be safe...how hard can that be?


----------



## to6y

listerdiesel said:


> When we had our alsation in the early 1970's, we were able to make up a collapsible shelter out of wire mesh panels, with a covering on top to keep the sun off her.
> 
> She could lay outside in the shelter or her lead was long enough for her to go under the caravan if she wanted to.
> 
> With plenty of water in non-spillable bowls she could stay outside in the fresh air for long periods.
> 
> We had an awning, but it got quite stuffy inside, while the shelter had pretty much open sides to let breezes blow through.
> 
> Most days she would come with us, but if we knew we were going to look at something where she wouldn't be allowed, she could stay with the 'van and be comfortable.
> 
> She lived to 13 years old, we had to have her put down in 1986, just after we moved to Rushden.
> 
> Peter


My worry with leaving the dog outside while I am not there is that he may be stolen!


----------



## sallylillian

If you have an option, get a Victron Phoenix inverter charger. Or the compact model. They both have power assist, http://www.victronenergy.com.es/upload/documents/White-paper-Achieving-the-impossible-EN.pdf
My experience with them has been excellent. They in effect enable you to use EHU and your inverter simultaneously to supplement low amp supply from the site. You simply dial up the EHU amp trip limit and your MH will not use more than that from the EHU, but will supplement it with inversion when demands exceed it and then revert to topping off the batteries when demand drops. This is also useful if you have a small generator, that can happily run, you dial up its amp limit and use what you like, well sort of.


----------



## listerdiesel

At £1600+ for the unit it's a little expensive, but I can see where it would be useful for non-electrically minded folk.

We can do all of that with discrete units for probably a third of the price.

Peter


----------



## aldra

We have aircon
If the weather is warm we stay on campsites

I need the aircon
With a heart condition

The hound from **** needs aircon to keep him cool

If we leave him

The aircon is on and someone on the site watches him

He has already charmed them

An app that would let us know would be great

We are on a scooter and couldget back quickly
We leave him 3/4 hours
Aldra


----------



## sallylillian

listerdiesel said:


> At £1600+ for the unit it's a little expensive, but I can see where it would be useful for non-electrically minded folk.
> 
> We can do all of that with discrete units for probably a third of the price.
> 
> Peter


I would be interested Peter in how you automatically manage consumption and inversion without human intervention and a lot of piddling around switching kit off, not using the kettle because the wifes drying her hair and such like? Indeed what other inverters manage the monitoring of wave phase to supplement demand inexcess of a predetermined limit... for a third of the cost?


----------



## listerdiesel

sallylillian said:


> I would be interested Peter in how you automatically manage consumption and inversion without human intervention and a lot of piddling around switching kit off, not using the kettle because the wifes drying her hair and such like? Indeed what other inverters manage the monitoring of wave phase to supplement demand inexcess of a predetermined limit... for a third of the cost?


Most of that is done automatically, look at the schematic for the system.

If you have constant voltage chargers as power supplies on EHU there isn't much to do if you think about it. You can run an inverter up to the output limit of the chargers as long as you have EHU connected. If the EHU goes off then you're on the batteries, no switching or controlling needed.

The rest of the stuff is clever, but not really necessary in my view.

Peter


----------



## jiwawa

Going back to weight To6y...

I came across some paperwork that would indicate my van was 3210kg when 1st on the scene. We're now uprated to 4200kg - so almost the tonne that you hope to have - and we're struggling.

Is the tonne payload _after _or _before _adding the likes of awning, uprated battery, 2nd battery, 2nd gas bottle, solar panels, spare wheel, maybe uprated engine.....

....and it has to include the wife and children and all their gear.

It sounds to me as if you're wanting to load a whole lot more than I have and, as I say, I'm struggling. Tho perhaps part of my problem is that the vast majority of our storage space is on or behind the rear axle. I don't know how your van compares.

I don't actually carry 1000kg - more like 600kg - but I'm on the limit of what my rear axle should carry - and that's with airride.

I do think you need to rethink payload. Some people have had a nasty surprise buying a lovely new van and discovering that the payload makes it not fit for purpose.

And don't believe anything the dealer or the brochure tells you, take it to a weighbridge and find out for yourself.

And remember it's not all about total weight - how it's distributed in the van can make a huge difference; but sometimes you don't have much choice. I have moved a heavy box of books/maps etc to under the table, but that means that we can't comfortably seat 4 at the table. But, for me, there's very little other option to move weight from rear to front.


----------



## to6y

JWW said:


> Going back to weight To6y...
> 
> I came across some paperwork that would indicate my van was 3210kg when 1st on the scene. We're now uprated to 4200kg - so almost the tonne that you hope to have - and we're struggling.
> 
> Is the tonne payload _after _or _before _adding the likes of awning, uprated battery, 2nd battery, 2nd gas bottle, solar panels, spare wheel, maybe uprated engine.....
> 
> ....and it has to include the wife and children and all their gear.
> 
> It sounds to me as if you're wanting to load a whole lot more than I have and, as I say, I'm struggling. Tho perhaps part of my problem is that the vast majority of our storage space is on or behind the rear axle. I don't know how your van compares.
> 
> I don't actually carry 1000kg - more like 600kg - but I'm on the limit of what my rear axle should carry - and that's with airride.
> 
> I do think you need to rethink payload. Some people have had a nasty surprise buying a lovely new van and discovering that the payload makes it not fit for purpose.
> 
> And don't believe anything the dealer or the brochure tells you, take it to a weighbridge and find out for yourself.
> 
> And remember it's not all about total weight - how it's distributed in the van can make a huge difference; but sometimes you don't have much choice. I have moved a heavy box of books/maps etc to under the table, but that means that we can't comfortably seat 4 at the table. But, for me, there's very little other option to move weight from rear to front.


Payload in spec is 1457kg for van I am aiming for...may end up getting different one though!

Batteries probably go under floor between axles. Gas is middle too.

Solar can go on roof...all over.

Scooter, I will consider putting on front rather than back.

Could up rate van by another 300kg...but doubt i'll need to and is just extra cost and hassle so wont do it.

I recon I'll be OK...I don't feel there is much more I can do at this stage about it. Basically I have selected a van with one of the largest payloads I could find!


----------



## listerdiesel

to6y said:


> Scooter, I will consider putting on front rather than back.


Don't think that would be allowed in the EU.

Peter


----------



## to6y

I have just created a new thread specifically about home educating the kids while we are travelling, it is here:
http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/20...ing-around-europe-any-advice.html#post1310882


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## barryd

Scooter on the front? Nah. Dont think so Toby. 

I like the way you are aiming large though. 

Nobody could accuse you of being timid in your approach to motorhoming. If you ever get this house on wheels off the ground I sincerely hope the Euro rate is still in our favour as its doing about 9mpg! 

On a serious note. I am impressed with your research and planning. I think your going to have a wonderful time but remember one thing, its still glorified camping, whilst home comforts are nice, you will soon realise how much you never really needed all your "stuff" you relied on from home.


----------



## peejay

Don't see what the problem is, just strap it on the front and away you go 0>


Pete


----------



## aldra

Educating kids

It's all a matter of perception

Are you trying to widen minds to accept new horizons?

Depending on how long you go

There is so much to learn about life and people

So thow in a bit of maths, they will need that for translating the pound

Welcome the new languages they will meet and learn

The cultures they will absorb

They will benifit

I know we travelled 6 months with tree kids, settled in Israel and had three more

Came back 8 years later with multilingual kids

They all went through uni

Seem ok to me

35 years later
Aldra


----------



## TJ101

Hi Toby,, A old thread i know,, Did you get sorted with what you were looking for ? only got as far as page 6 !! 

Like Ozzyjohn, I own a Deth GT 9800 XXL,, Brilliant van,, 
Payload of near 1600 KG +, tows well with 8 M trailer and 3 ton on the back, over hang has never been a problem whatsoever, even when "offroad"


----------



## to6y

In short, not yet.

We are still battling to get our son into school, changing to a new school this September, new EHCP plan (something to help him get into school)...however our backup plan (of road schooling) is pretty polished should we decide to go.

The earliest we see us leaving now is 1 April 2016.

Re vehicle, I have settled on getting a converted 7.5 lorry/horse box/mobile library. Coincidentally, I am going to look at one on Monday that looks pretty good (needs a little bit of work...but not much!).


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## aldra

It's a long thread 

And I've forgotten how long you intend to travel with the kids

I've aged in the meantime

The dog will survive and love his freedom

Winter requires more space in the van

Education is important

But do not underestimate the importance of travel, experiences knowledge gained first hand

In any case enjoy your travels

Aldra


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## NormanB

For a three month or longer trip size is important for us and we're only a couple plus labrador. With kids I would think it's even more important. Finding good weather when you can camp outside the van helps - but for this you really need campsites. 


To get these elements to work together, plan the trip based on the typical weather for the season in each country eg Norway in summer following the weather south until southern Spain by mid-winter to maximise the potential to expand your living space into the outdoors.


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