# History of 3.5t and 7.5t weight limits



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I did try this question on a more general thread but got no response so I am asking a specific question here.

Does anyone know the history/derivation of how 3.5t and 7.5t became limits for categories of vehicles and licences?

From which country did they originate?

How were they adopted as an international standard?

All VOSA, ex-VOSA Dft input welcomed.

Thanks

Geoff


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## GROUNDHOG (Mar 7, 2006)

No idea but a good question??????


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## Moandick (Nov 8, 2006)

I took my licence in the early 1960's and I think there were just two categories of licence at that time - a 'car' licence for normal vehicles and a PSV licence for passenger carrying vehicles.

I know that having passed my car licence I frequently drove a 4 ton Commer Tipper truck with a 'crash' gearbox and that was great fun - but I seem to remember another category of car licence known as a large car licence.

Around 1964/5 the car licence was expanded into the HGV realms. Your employer had to state whether or not you had driven a large motorcar frequently and if you did you were granted an HGV 3,2 or 1 licence. If you did not drive a large motor car frequently then you were restricted to a normal car.

However, it was around that time that people realised that lorry deliveries fell into two categories - i.e. minibus deliveries as compared to rigid or artic deliveries so the minimum level of HGV was set at 7½ tons and the medium level of large car was set at 3½ tons. Hnce the birth of 'white-van' man!

My memories are quite hazy so I am probably quite wide of the mark - but heck, that's the joys of an old man's memories!

Dick


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

nicholsong said:


> I did try this question on a more general thread but got no response so I am asking a specific question here.
> 
> Does anyone know the history/derivation of how 3.5t and 7.5t became limits for categories of vehicles and licences?
> 
> ...


Napoleon? (only joking) good question Geoff

Dick


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Lorry driving licences were introduced in 1934 so I assume the definition and groups were known then.

The weights are in the International driving Permit requirements and there was a 1926 Convention that applied to them which has been updated several times the latest being the 1968 convention (as amended in 2011).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Driving_Permit


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## Don_Madge (May 1, 2005)

Geoff,

The HGV system started in January 1970 and consisted of four classes.

HGV1 was artics where the tractor weighed over 2/3 tons?

HGV2 was a rigid vehicle with more than four wheels, a twin wheel with the centre of the tyre was less than 18 inches apart counted as one wheel with no weight restrictions.

HGV3 was a rigid vehicle with four wheels with no weight restrictions.

HGV 4 was an artic with the tractor weighing less than 2/3 tons? You might remember the small british rail scammell mechanical horse.

When the system started it worked on unladen weights. You could have a non HGV vehicle weighing under 3 tons legally carry a load of 4/5 tons plus.

It all changed at a later date to laiden weights. 

The HGV was a permit to drive and not a license, it could be taken off you for a non motoring offence by the traffic commissioners. 


I'm struggling to remember this from memory of 43 years ago so please bear with me if I ain't got it quite right.

Don


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## tonka (Apr 24, 2006)

Don_Madge said:


> When the system started it worked on unladen weights. You could have a vehicle weighing under 3 tons legally carry a load of 4/5 tons plus.


This is no doubt where the strange figure of 3050kg comes from and the use of the outside lane on motorways,, In my early days of driving I remember using 7.5t trucks and the unladen weight clearly shown on the side of them. We used the outside lane with them...


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*DVLA*

A bit off topic but an interesting quirk is the fact that the tax disc is less for motorhomes in the over 3500kg category than under.

I was told this was because the 3500 - 7500kg vehicles were often horse boxes and the like!!!

Russell


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## tonka (Apr 24, 2006)

*Re: DVLA*



Rapide561 said:


> A bit off topic but an interesting quirk is the fact that the tax disc is less for motorhomes in the over 3500kg category than under.
> 
> I was told this was because the 3500 - 7500kg vehicles were often horse boxes and the like!!!
> 
> Russell


I dont care as long as it stays cheaper..
There is an old mare in mine at times... :lol:

Glad she dont come on here.. Only joking darling,... :wink:


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

There were other 'factors, in the late 1960's Plating & Testing was introduced for commercial vehicles, the bottom limit was vehicles over 30cwt unladen weight.

Operator Licencing also had an impact as the old A B and C licences were abolished.

7.5 ton GVW was quite an important step as it marked the boundary between car liucence and HGV licence, that caused a few problems in my trade, commercial vehicle mechanic.

Peter


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

So, when did tons become tonnes, as in metric?


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

pippin said:


> So, when did tons become tonnes, as in metric?


Or even long tons, short tons and tonnes?

Dick


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Thanks everybody for your replies so far.

Most of the replies have been relating to Driving Licences and the applicable categories of vehicle.

I had assumed, rightly or wrongly, that vehicles were categorised first and that the licences for each category followed, but from some replies it may be the opposite was the case.

Nobody has yet suggested a reason for the 3.5t and 7.5t distinctions becoming international, albeit now tonnes not tons.

Please keep the answers coming as this is not just a 'pub quiz' question because it does have a serious application. 

I will await further replies, and any leads to other sources of information, with keen interest.

Geoff


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Tons are imperial, 2240lbs, tonnes are Metric, 1000kg or 2200lbs.

Long and short tons are shipping volumes/weights.

Peter


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Pretty sure the 3.5ton limit was the 'new; Operators Licence threshold, the 7.5ton licence limit was a harmonization issue I believe, brought in when the HGV licences started.

Peter


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## GROUNDHOG (Mar 7, 2006)

Uhm, it is a real dilemma ... or is it a dilemna? Who changed all these things!! :roll:


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