# Eeeek Another nail in the Efoy coffin



## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

We supplied a customer with a SFC 50 which has packed up out of warranty.

The customer was fed up with it so we bought the unit back and installed a decent charger and a generator.

EFOY want about £70 to initially look at it, and then they will tell us how much it will cost to fix, we have to pay to send it back, which is £107.50 and we have to pay to have the unit sent back to us!

Another consideration for anyone thinking about buying one!

Eddie


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## steco1958 (Mar 5, 2009)

Excuse my ignorance but, what is an SFC 50, and who or what is EFOY?


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

But they are not exactly cheap ways of generating electricity are they? When I looked into the cost I was unpleasantly surprised by how high it was! Are all fuel cells the same at present?

Also isn't the methanol fuel a) expensive and b) not very readily available?

There certainly seem to be things counting against them!

Dave


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I am sorry to hear someone has a fuel cell which has broken down and is out of warranty. I wonder how many hours it has done as the life of the fuel cell is guaranteed for 3000 hours or 3 years. Any manufacturer can expect you to pay postage, diagnosis and repair of a product which is out of warranty. 

Fuel can be collected from outlets all over mainland europe and I have mail ordered it from Campervanstuff with no difficulty, so I think saying it is hard to get is less than true. 

There is no doubt that electricity produced the Efoy works out expensive but it is very convenient. The little pump in my fuel cell went faulty and Efoy arranged to collect it, fix it and send it back very quickly and efficiently. 

I have to say that taking an interest in posts regarding Efoy it does seem to me that eddievanbitz is conducting a one man crusade against them. I am well aware of exactly what eddie thinks as he never misses a chance to knock the Efoy, Alan.


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## Batch (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm surprised at Eddies reaction as well. Especially if he supplied it. If that's the his first problem with an Efoy then I should think he's had more with alarms out of warranty


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

My comment about being hard to get was made after I was advised that it is illegal to post flammable items according to the Post Office's regulations;

http://tiny.cc/FdLgP

have I been misguided?

Dave


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

There's an interesting writeup on the Efoy system >> here <<

The same website will supply fuel, as Alan (erneboy) has said, but it says to phone to discuss delivery as there is a surcharge. Presumably, this is to arrange a carrier, rather than use the PO.

Gerald


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## Motorhomewales (Feb 24, 2009)

Having sold and fitted many Efoy units over the last 2 years, I have not seen one fault on them. If any product develops a fault outside of its warranty period then shock horror someone must pay for its repair!

The costings stated are a small fraction of the cost of a new unit, therefore arguably acceptable? Is there any recourse through the wholesaler or was it imported directly?

Would it not have been more proactive to pay for the unit to go back to Efoy and then discuss a contribution with the customer possibly? Maybe a better option than giving negative comments on a product retailed by yourselves?


Dan


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I was aware that transporting methanol is not something all carriers will do, but I know from having received it (clearly labelled etc.) that there are those who have systems in place which allow them to deliver it, Alan.


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

erneboy said:


> Fuel can collected from outlets all over mainland europe and I have mail ordered it from Campervanstuff with no difficulty, so I think saying it is hard to get is less than true.
> 
> I have to say that taking an interest in posts regarding Efoy it does seem to me that eddievanbitz is conducting a one man crusade against them. I am well aware of exactly what eddie thinks as he never misses a chance to knock the Efoy, Alan.


I object to your statement that I am saying something less than true! The supply is poor! Very few carriers will touch it IF THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE CARRYING

We couldn't organise legal home delivery of the methanol, neither can Mr Paul Gofton who is responsible for the sales and distribution of EFOY for Webasto.

I am not launching a "one man crusade" nor am I am one man band like others you mention, I am in fact, a partner of an honest company with a first class reputation for customer service, one of the types of traders that the members of this site cry out for and bemoan the lack of.

You criticise me, because I always add the true situation to any thread I simply state a few caveats

Methanol is hard to get, and has to be planned for I think Essenjay are the only people in Somerset for example (Steve the owner stocks it, as he bought Transleisures demo unit! )

Some insurers will not insure vehicles carrying methanol MTC, Comfort Adrian Flux plus others

The cost of the units is very high

I have said time and time again, that I sell them and that they are very good. I also tell people that solar panels are pretty useless in the UK in the winter, yet my Company is the sole UK importers for Alden who make a range of flat and self tracking solar panels. I guess I call it integrity, you see it as a "one man crusade"

The unit was out of warranty, yet had no way been used for 300 hours let alone 3000. The customer had been dogged with problems with it which is why we bought the unit back from him.

So anyone want a cheap unit that works erratically that you can't buy fuel for LOL


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## Chudders (Jul 5, 2008)

Whatever you think of Efoy, and I confess I do not know much about them, I note that eddievanbitz has 'bought the unit back' even though it is out of warranty. Seems like a pretty good gesture to me, would that more businesses acted like that.
Dave


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Sorry, I seemed to double post, so I deleted what I thought was one post and found both had gone, so here goes again. 

Eddie, I am not saying you are dishonest merely that the truth about delivery is that it is possible. I know home deliveries are difficult but delivering to trade suppliers is possible. I have obtained fuel without difficulty all over mainland europe and in the UK, we differ on that. Have you tried getting fuel as you travel around europe? 

I did not call you a one man band, you brought that up and it looks to me as though you did it to slight another business. 

You say that you have said time and again that the Efoy is a good system and a few lines later you say they work erratically and people cannot get fuel for them. Which is it, you cannot have it both ways, Alan.


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

I have edit this as Alan (Ernboy) has deleted the questions (in error) that I answered

Eddie


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Motorhomewales said:


> If any product develops a fault outside of its warranty period then shock horror someone must pay for its repair!


And according to the Sale of Goods Act it isn't (necessarily) the customer - so that then leaves the retailer and the manufacturer to argue it out.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Eddie, I am sorry, my computer or connection is not working correctly. You have answered a post which I can no longer see. I thought I had double posted and therefore deleted one but when I looked both had gone so I posted again in similar vein. I still cannot see the one you have answered, Alan.


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

erneboy said:


> Eddie, I am sorry, my computer or connection is not working correctly. You have answered a post which I can no longer see. I thought I had double posted and therefore deleted one but when I looked both had gone so I posted again in similar vein. I still cannot see the one you have answered, Alan.


Erractic power supply Alan  :wink: I'll edit my answer to your post to avoid anyone getting confused!


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

16,000 units sold in Europe suggest Eddie that your viewpoint may be a little jaundiced. The Insurance companies I contacted regarding motorhomes carrying small quantities of Methanol said that they had recieved no claims associated with its carriage.

Until there was any evidence that small quantities of Methanol increased the risk (compared to a can of petrol for example) then they were not bothered.
Should there be claims associated with carriage of Metanol then they would review their viewpoint.

There is after all roughly twice the amount of energy stored in 5 litres of unleaded than there is in 5 litres of Methanol.

By the way did you see the 250 watt EFOY called EMILY at Dussledorf?

C.


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Hi Clive, 16000 units sold in what eight years, across Europe? You probably remember coming to my stand in 2004 and playing with the first one in the Country! Hardly a roaring sucess! 

Comfort will not insure you! if you carry more than 5 ltrs (the EFOY has a 10 ltr container :roll: ) Adrian Flux will not insure you, MTC will not insure you.

Peter Cue the boss of Comfort told me, Jeffrey Hoare the boss of MTC to me and Adrian Flux flatly refused cover to Nick Johnson our sales manager when we were going to install one in his van for evaluation.

I know that you are keen on the EFOY and I know that they are keen on you Clive :wink: 

I keep being branded as "anti" EFOY all I am doing is offering the voice of reason for the average motorhomer who doesn't have loads of money .

Frankly if the odd two or three grand doesn't matter to you there is no real reason not to buy one, order the methanol in, in sufficient quantity so that you'll always have some to hand so supply will not be an issue.

However, to the majority of people on this site, spending that kind of money would be either impossible or a major decision, so I think it fair and right to raise any issues we come across.

For the record we have had customers who have been refused insurance AFTER buying their EFOY's from other suppliers who have been left with no alternative but to pay a 20% handling fee to return the product, these things are not funny when the unit was circa £3k

Good night really! :lol: I have been called jaundiced and a one man crusader because as a trader, I am honest enough to advise that there may be issues with a product!

I know I have a better idea!

Who wants to buy an EFOY? Over 16000 sold Europewide and available as an option on any number of really expensive German motorhomes! Powered by Methanol which is readily available and can be delivered to your door! Methanol is really really safe so there is no need at all to inform your insurance company. Supplied normally in a box of 4 x 10 Ltr cannisters so it wont make a difference to your payload or safety in the event of a fire! Is it really is the future? Only £2,999.00

There we go! Now I am acting like a normal trader and ignoring any potential problems so we can all now relax, balance is restored! :roll:


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## Chudders (Jul 5, 2008)

I,m not sure about Efoy one way or the other but I do find it refreshing to have a trader who is prepared to give an opinion on an item of equipment they sell even if that means potentially losing business. It may well only be that particular persons opinion and I can,t comment on the rights or wrongs of the viewpoint but at least it must be an honest and genuine opinion as sales may suffer. I wish businesses that I deal with had similar integrity. 
Dave


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## aikidomo (Jan 8, 2008)

*Effoy*

Hmm,
Interesting discussion here followed by quite a few interested parties me thinks.
What you say Eddie is all very true and of course I congratulate your candour. :lol: 
3 grand is an awful lot of money for what I percieve as basically a substitute for a gennie, which can be purchased for about 10 per cent of that price.
In the words of Duncan Ballentyne on Dragons Den, "And for that reason I'm out." :roll: 
Clive, :!: not Mott, bye the way.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Now if I told you that one of Eddie and Clive has a conflict of interest that should be taken into account when considering the veracity and balance of their advice on EFOY, you might say ahhhhh, so that's why! 

Dave


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

DABurleigh said:


> Now if I told you that one of Eddie and Clive has a conflict of interest that should be taken into account when considering the veracity and balance of their advice on EFOY, you might say ahhhhh, so that's why!
> 
> Dave


Hey Dave

This is the new me! "Roll up roll up get 'em while their hot" Me :lol: If people want to buy them I'm your man :wink:

It would be ironic if this got pulled for trying to sell EFOY's on Motorhomefacts though wouldn't it? :lol:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Eddie, as a retailer of Efoy products I am sure you are aware that the fuel comes in both 5lt and 10lt containers and while they may be supplied to you wholesale in outers of 4 x 5lt or 4 x 10lt a retail customer can but one 10lt or two 5lt or any combination depending on their preference. My query to my insurer prompted the answer Clive gave, they have no problem with my having mwthanol on board and placed no limit on the quantity I could carry. I am aware of the hazards involved with methanol as would anyone be if they read the Efoy literature. In my experience 2 x 5lt containers is sufficient for me to carry at any time and will last me 3 weeks to a month in winter fulltiming and using the Efoy to top up my power needs. Your comment about ordering methanol in sufficient quantities gives the impression that users will need to carry large quantities of fuel, I find that is not so.

I am sorry to say your last post was short on facts reinforcing my impression that you are simply against Efoy and while I would welcome an end to this I will continue to challenge inaccuracy, Alan


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Alan, your consumption is acedemic to be fair as we do not know how frugal you are!

The product is sold as a replacement for alternative power sources, and as such EFOY are very clear how much energy is in each cartridge. When I used one to test it I was getting through about one cartridge every four to five days so a three week holiday would require me carrying more than you. We are all different in out use. 

For £3K I did not want to be very frugal, so I my consumption will be higher than yours.

As for any one who has any doubts about insurance, surely they should simply ask their insurer's to write confirming that methanol storage and carriage will not effect the cover on any future claim. 

I am only giving the same advice I or my staff would give to any of our customers prior to selling them a EFOY 

As I have stated before, the insurance company will either be happy as in Alan's case or not, being asked to confirm it in writing will not change their attitude either way.

There have been members who have posted on earlier EFOY posts that have confirmed that they have been declined continued cover because of methanol being carried.

Anyway I have given my thoughts and we are repeating ourselves, anyone that still wants to buy one can give me a call and I will donate the profit to Nuke's charity!


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Eddie, I agree there is no doubt about how much energy a cartridge of fuel will produce. If I ran mine 24/7 it would use a lot more fuel. I run it when I need to and make no great effort to to be frugal with my power consumption. I use lights, I watch television all evening, I charge my laptop battery and in when it is cold I run the heating, I use power as anyone would. 

I appreciate that a generator is cheaper, but the Efoy does not annoy other people and as importantly it does not annoy us. I do not have to get it out and fuel it before using it and chain it up to prevent theft. I do not have to let it cool down before fueling it or worry about using it in the rain. Yes it is not cheap and if cost is a major consideration then a generator may be the preferred,if much less convenient option. 

I have been very careful not repeat anything I have said before in this thread in this post, Alan.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

I see Clive returned but didn't 'fess up


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

Yes I still have a "long term test" EFOY 1600 to play with and the last time it was operating was the beginning of summer when we had not just the van fully illuminated but also a couple of commercial 3M square gazebos over a 5 day long show weekend. The solar could not keep up but we were intentionally being greedy to make the EFOY work. I offered the unit back to them at the end of the year but was told to hang onto it for as long as I liked. I do have the invoice for it though! What would you do?

My advice to others who want electrical independance has always been in order :-

1) Double up on your leisure battery bank.
2) Change all your leisure bulbs to LEDs to minimise loading.
2) Fit as much solar real estate as you can. Even a wind generator perhaps.
3) If you don,t mind offending people with NOISE then have a generator, Honda being the quietest and most reliable and the ones that all others aspire to. 

If you want QUIET and to be able to maintain your battery then the EFOY kit comes next. Unless anybody knows of another totally quiet alternative? You can pick up Methanol refils at most shows and we have not neaded to get one for over a year.

But most people who have EFOY units have them "Just in case" but seldom use them. About the same as generators I guess. It gives you security of supply.

Oh yes, we sold our Yanmar generator to purchase our first BP solar panel several years back. Best move we made. Dave Burleigh might remember the one and only time we ever fired up the generator in the New Forest as he was there. If I couldn,t hack the noise then how could I expect anybody else to?

If you are super flush there is now an EFOY 2200 which provides up to about 7.5 amps from the same case. The 250 watt EMILY is a military unit which provides 12 or 24 volt supplies and is much bigger and cost the same as a small motorhome!. But they are well engineered, things have moved on a great deal since the first 2 amp units that Eddie had.

If I had 3 grand to spend and did not have an EFOY what would I do with the cash? Probably buy a newer more powerfull motorbike! 400CC Suzuki is my flavour of the month at the moment as it will just fit in the MH garage. Will I get it passed the "management" though?

C.


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

I would imagine that there is quite a few people who are waiting for autumn 2010 when the lpg powered trumas come out, its only 1 year away, i certainly wouldn't buy an efoy until we find out more about these, cost, efficiency etc.

PaulnCaz.


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## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

Interesting debate which I'm sure will go on for some time. I'm not in the market for an Efoy but have read this thread from start to finish. Congratulations to everyone for keeping a level head & a civil tongue. My tenner's repaid itself again  

D.


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## foll-de-roll (Oct 29, 2007)

Hi

"Unless anybody knows of another totally quiet alternative"


Three Thousand Quid. Let me see, EHU!!!


Andy :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

geraldandannie said:


> There's an interesting writeup on the Efoy system >> here <<
> 
> The same website will supply fuel, as Alan (erneboy) has said, but it says to phone to discuss delivery as there is a surcharge. Presumably, this is to arrange a carrier, rather than use the PO.
> 
> Gerald


Hello Gerald,

Glad that you found our information interesting. As you surmise, all of our fuel deliveries are made using a carrier rather than the PO.

Our deliveries are made legally with the nature of the fuel correctly declared and labelled and using specialist carriers qualified to carry this class of material. We pay a surcharge for this and we pass on the surcharge to our customers.

Regards

David


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

My advice is extra batteries and a Sterling Battery to Battery charger. Arrive with sufficient for the stay, no need then to fanny around trying to "top" things up.

As back up, on my RV I have a huge great big genny that is really very quiet as it is hardly ticking over when powering a Sterling 50amp Pro D charger. One hour in the morning when other things like TV and hairdryers seem important and we can replace the previous day's consumption!

With gennies buy bigger than you need and let the thing easily cope with what your running rather than buying a tiny one and running flat out!


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

Sound advice Eddie. I forgot to mention that our new tardis has a Tec29 genny. But it was already fitted. I would not have specced it. More solar most likely Mrs uses it to power the microwave to make custard. (Petrol powered custard!) 

My report covering the Dussledorf show should with luck come out soon in MMM and the update on the Truma LPG fuel cell is within it. (Unless it gets edited out!)

C.


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

We have sold many Efoys and we have not had a single comeback on any of them.

We continue to supply fuel to some of these customers (not all of them, so I would take that to mean that they are able to source fuel closer to their own localities) and I always ask if they are happy with their units.

They always praise them: 'wonderful' and 'absolutely delighted' are actual comments that come to mind. I have never had a negative comment or any form of complaint.

I own an Efoy 1600 myself - bought at a trade price but nevertheless paid for and not freebie. How better to gain a thorough understanding of a product which I sell.

My personal views echo those of the customers I quoted above.

Other members in this thread have made positive, informed comment about Efoys based on actual ownership and usage, or like us, experience from selling them.

All of Eddie's points have been made and answered before many times in other threads; now he has got a faulty (very outdated) one to complain about.

So I'll just say this:

No faults in my unit or those of my customers (or they haven't told me)
Efoys are wonderfull; they do the job for me
I'm fully insured
My customers are very happy
Fuel is available
SFC sent me, and other customers, a free firmware updater device to improve fuel efficiency - that's excellent customer service.

Regards

David


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## Motorhomewales (Feb 24, 2009)

As David has already stated delivering the fuel is not difficult, we also ship out using a specialist carrier. All legal and above board, so availability is not that difficult:however not as easy as say a Calor bottle!

None of my customers have had any issues with the units we have supplied and fitted, and are extremely happy with their performance. For most people it would be the most expensive accessory they are likely to buy, it therefore must be 100% reliable, and meet the exact requirements of the customer.

Dan


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

Would something like THIS be a better bet than an Efoy.

About the same cost and less hassle in my opinion.

Richard...


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"Super-silent petrol generators with Yamaha engine, contained in a sound-proofed metal casing."

Chalk and cheese I'm afraid. And if were up to me they'd be done under the Trade Description Act. Super-silent and sound proof here equates to 6dB louder than my Honda uncased......

ANY piston generator is noisy. And for Gasperini EG20 owners, sorry to tell you after you've being suckered into the marketing blurb, but this is a noisy piston generator! 

Dave


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

The TEC29 uses a Honda engine but even so I can only put up with it for a few minutes if the custard is being made for me! The previous owners had it to run the habitation Truma aircon. But that is to noisy anyway. Perhaps its just me? 
There is a gas conversion for the TEC29 available so that it can compete directly with the Yamamathingy mentioned above. But Dave is right, anything with a reciprocating piston engine makes a noise.

C.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

An interesting read.
I did not know what an EFOY was. Now i do, its expensive.

We manage with 1 leisure battery 
1 EHU

Stand by genny for charging batteries. Never used.


I like to see a small business defending itself.

The big boys would have ignored the situation

Cheers eddie

Dave p


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

For a review of the old EFOY as Eddie had originally and some of the products development, download this compilation.

Ta
C
http://www.motts.org/FUEL CELL COMPILATION.pdf


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