# Remaps and fuel consumption



## duzit

Hi
There are many companies out there offering engine remaps, chipping call it what you like. I am sure all, well most of these companies are reputable, but I have a doubt in my mind about some of the claims made by some of these companies.
Most companies claim an improvement in power/performance, not something we need. Improved torque, probably the major consideration for remapping and thirdly improved fuel economy.
It is the third reason I have doubts about. Is it physically possible to reduce the amount of fuel being used in a modern day diesel engine. If it is, why do the manufacturers e.g. Fiat include it in their EC programming. What a great selling point if they can offer 15%,20% or even 25% better economy than they quote in their figures now.
I have spoken to a few people who have had remaps and all state that their vehicle (all Fiat X250 base) have seen an improvement in economy according to their trip meter. drivers with pre X250 base models have not seen improvements to the same degree, some only 5%. unless you know differently of course.

Now the big ask.... Is it possible for a dubious remap company to "trick" the on board computer into thinking, therefore displaying a better fuel consumption figure?
Having had experience of a remap on an X250 which over the last 5000 mles has returned according to the trip 22mpg. Following a remap it now shows an average mpg of 26mpg an improvement of 15% HOWEVER calculating the consumption on paper. Litres divided by 4.54 then mileage divided by gallons show the van is doing........Guess what 22MPG! UnfortunatelyI did not do the same manual calculation prior to the remap, but I am confident it was fairly accurate when comparing notes with other van owners of a similar size weight and the number of miles covered in between refills.
I have had 2 other vehicles (sports cars) remapped/chipped in the past and a 2.8 Fiat Motorhome (by the no longer trading Van Aiken) All had massive increases in power, performance and torque, None had improved or decreased fuel consumption.


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## Mrplodd

Do a search, this subject has been discussed many times here.

Those who have had it done all seem to think it worthwhile BUT what is the pay back time ?? The saving (if there is one) is only the difference between the fuel you would have used and what you actually use after remap. At 15% saving you will need to do a LOT of miles to save the cost of remapping. Probably change vyour van before you get your investment back !!( I bet someone has already done the maths, I just cant be @rsed !!)

Also I have reports of engine problems after remapping and the manufacturers (Fiat) insisting on being allowed to check the ECU to make sure it has not been "played" with !!! (out of warranty that problem would not arise of course)

I reckon a few quid spent on a economical driving course would prove better value, and you can use the skills learnt on every vehicle you susbsequently drive !!


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## TR5

Whilst I agree with MrPlodd on the merits of an "economical driving course", I don't agree that most have their vans chipped to gain economy, expecting to save money over the period of time of ownership.

Many motorhomes are underpowered, particularly until more recently, and the need arises often enough to have that extra torque or power, to overtake, to pull out of a junction, to not lose so much speed uphill, etc., to warrant the expense.

In other words, to enhance the driving experience of an otherwise sluggish vehicle.

Just my opinion, of course.


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## duzit

Thanks for replies. I could not find an answer to my question which was in a nutshell.

*Now the big ask.... Is it possible for a dubious remap company to "trick" the on board computer into thinking, therefore displaying a better fuel consumption figure? 
*


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## peribro

Surely the presumption has to be that the manufacturers are doing their best to maximise their commercial advantage? Therefore if there was a magic tweak to improve all the things that are claimed, then I'm sure that they would have incorporated it into their new-builds. I think that the reality is that there are tweaks that can be done that will improve certain aspects of performance at the expense of others - probably engine wear and fuel economy. Until someone can produce evidence otherwise then I won't be tinkering with my ECU.


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## 96706

Having got an older model Peugeot Boxer 2.0 HDI (2005 model) Autosleeper Symbol, the main reason for re-mapping my van was the overall improvement in performance.

The original 85BHP engine is uprated to 115BHP and what a difference to the driving it makes! 
We are now able to go uphill in 3rd or even 4th gear sometimes whereas before it was only possible in 2nd. (we have some very steep hills around Eastbourne/Beachy Head area).

I can now also overtake in 5th gear, whereas before, it was a case of thinking if there was enough clear road to carry out the manouvere safely. 

Yes there is some improvement in fuel economy, but that was never the main reason for having the work carried out.

As has been said before, how you drive has a lot to do with the fuel economy and cruise control helps a lot in that as well.

The re-mapping was carried out in 2008, by a fellow MHF member, who came to my house to carry out the work & didn't leave until I had driven the van with him along side, to make sure that I was very happy with the results. 

To say I was is an understatement, as with out this work being done, I would have sold the van, to buy another one with bigger engine.

It cost me £299 and I can honestly say it was one of the best spends ever.  

I have had the van serviced 3 times since then by local garages and never had a problem with the fact that the re-mapping has been done.


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## Stanner

The reason re-mapping works is that the OEM map has to be a "jack of all trades" and allow for the vehicle working under the worst possible conditions on the lowest grade of fuel. 
It has to allow for the worst possible scenario.

Re-mapping is the modern electronic version of "blueprinting" an engine to be used for "production" car racing. All engineering has tolerances and if you can maximise the beneficial effects of those tolerances you can get a "standard" engine that produces much more power than one straight off the production line.

Example I know of = Hillman Avenger 1300 standard engine quoted as producing 57bhp - yet a blue printed 1300 could be capable of up to 130bhp.

How? well it had the shortest possible block with largest possible cylinder bores, smallest possible combustion chambered head with largest possible valves and smoothest ports - that head was a special one homologated for high altitude use in Brazil it also "just happened" to have twin choke Weber carbs fitted as standard.


A good custom re-map just does the modern day equivalent of all that at a fraction of the cost by altering the generic map in the ECU to suit the exact characteristics of that particular engine.


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## clive1821

I have had my 2.8 Dicato re mapped, the main reason was the extra power I needed, which has improved and well worth the investment, as far as the mpg you can see from my figures on the motorhome log there is no difference at all in the mpg... but the extra grunt is well worth it... just my view and my personal findings...


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## CliveMott

"re-mapping works is that the OEM map has to be a "jack of all trades" Sorry but that sounds like salesman talk. Modern engines have modern ECU controllers and are covered in sensors looking at all aspects of combustion, emission gasses, temperature etc. These ECU's automatically calibrate the engine to suit the actual fuel in use. There is no longer any "Jack of all trades" settup on modern engines.

The basics are simple. You can get more power by using more fuel and more air. Both the turbo and fuel injection are under ECU management. Pushing an engine harder will result in increased emissions but can still be well within the levels deemed "OK" for the MOT test. Increasing acceleration is none by increasing the fuel in advance of the increase in air because the turbo takes time to spin up.

If you use more power you will consume more fuel. Pushing an engine in excess of its designed limits will result in a less efficient engine.

Then there are the brakes, transmission, cooling system and handling to be considered.

Spoken by someone who has done it. Tuned engines, wrecked clutches, disintegrated gearboxes etc. etc. But never on a vehicle where reliability was paramount. Boys toys.

Many leading companies in the engine performance enhancement field have gone to the wall. Why do you think that is? (Van Aaken, TB Turbo for example)

When your con-rod comes through the side of the cylinder block you will find that any guarantee you might have will at best return the cost of the re-chipping. It won't buy you a new engine.

Think on

C.


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## Raf

As long as the van has been mapped properly and not just for all out peformance you will definitely see an improvement in mpg as long as you drive the van as you did before the remap. If you give the vehicle the right amount of extra power (not too much) then the vehicle is running more efficiently as you do not need to drop down gears when overtaking or coming to hills. It is this that saves you fuel. The fact that the vehicle is running more efficiently. If the remap has been tuned purely for performance then you will see major improvements in power but no improvement in economy. 

And no. A remap company cannot re adjust your vehicles trip computer to read more mpgs. Earlier (pre 2006) ducatos dont have a computer and owners report savings in fuel.


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## Stanner

CliveMott said:


> "re-mapping works is that the OEM map has to be a "jack of all trades" Sorry but that sounds like salesman talk. Modern engines have modern ECU controllers and are covered in sensors looking at all aspects of combustion, emission gasses, temperature etc. These ECU's automatically calibrate the engine to suit the actual fuel in use. There is no longer any "Jack of all trades" settup on modern engines.


Sorry back - that is as told to me by someone who actually writes the generic maps installed in ECU's.

His last 2 contracts were BMW in Munich and Audi at Ingoldstadt.

They could easily get 10% or more out of engines, but they must allow a margin of error to cater for the wide range of markets the product is sold to and the fuel standards/driving conditions likely to be encountered. A custom remap does just as it says - it tweaks that map to suit that exact engine's characteristics.

If you were talking about a tuning box I would agree with you as all that does is just fool the ECU into overboosting and/or overfuelling, but we aren't.

To use a parallel - the generic map is the digital image straight from the camera - the custom re-map is the image after you've used Photoshop on it.

And I will agree, in both instances you can easily tweak too much, that is what you have to be careful about.


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## Raf

I agree Staner. Tweaking too much is where problems arise. There are now alot of companies setting up who simply put a generic file onto the vehicle. These are written god knows where and usually written for full out power as this is what they want the driver to feel. A much sharper throttle response. You can even buy a cds on the internet which contain 100s of files which can be used over and over again. You should always go for a custom or bespoke map which has been written specifically for your van.


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## jud

*FIAT 160 REMAPPED*

:roll: hi duzit my friend had is fiat 160 rapido remapped 3years ago this year we had our fiat 160 done we have experienced no problems we had it remapped for economy because diesel keeps going up and our m/h is 5ton which was doing 20 m.p.g now 24 m.p.g with cruise control at 56 m.p.h . :roll: i do my m.p.g test by filling up driving about 100miles stop and fill up see how much it takes to fill do that 3 or 4 times i did mine on our last trip to Germany on there motorway i don't think the m.p.g on board computer fiat x250 are that reliable so what go's out of the tank is what you have used you can't go wrong that way. the b.h.p was 160 before and after 192 b.h.p on a 5 ton m/h is unbelievable hills-joining motorways-getting out of a sticky situation and overtaking is a nice thing to have at your disposal and no i am not a boy racer or my friend we are 60 and 64 years old and drive just faster than a lorry and being retired we are in no rush . the extra m.p.g and extra b.h.p out weighs the cost of £332 . jud


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## 747

I just sit behind a big box bodied HGV on the motorway. That gives me better mpg.


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## teemyob

*Sprinters*

Has anyone had a Sprinter re-map?

TM


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## brillopad

Yes me. Dennis


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## Addie

There was defiantly an increase in MPG for my father-in-laws 2.3 (130) vs my own identical van (Ci Carioca 694).

Possibly only 3-4 MPG but it also made it much move lively in all gears.

Possible negative effects? Apart from invalidating your warranty, very little that I can see. It's not a car which is going to be driven hard all its life, all that is required from it is occasionally a little extra grunt and a bit more efficient fuel/air mix when travelling at a steady speed.

Things like turbos and clutches going as a by-product of increase power only really come into it when a over-load vehicle is revved within an inch of its life and trust me I've seen a lot of campers driven like this!

Payback? That's simple, remove the chip before sale and eBay it for at least 50% of the value.

Our chip was £149 fitted from Diesel Tuner in Hull.


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## 747

Addie said:


> Possible negative effects? Apart from invalidating your warranty, very little that I can see. It's not a car which is going to be driven hard all its life, all that is required from it is occasionally a little extra grunt and a bit more efficient fuel/air mix when travelling at a steady speed.


Addie, you talk about a better fuel/air mix (which is beneficial), this could be improved by getting rid of the standard Fiat paper filter cartridge and using a better air filter.

I have just fitted a K & N air filter which is supposed to complement the Tunit box on a 2.8 JTD. I have not had a good run to try it out yet but live in hope. :lol:


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## lagold

*Which is the best chip to fit ?*

After all the talk which is the best chip to fit I have a fiat 2.3 .I get 22mph on a good run in france warranty now gone so time to improve performance and fuel economy ?


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## henede

Hi all, no answers, just more questions! Driving a Renault 120bhp which is both long and high and been trying to decide for ages whether to remap or not. Mechanic says NO. Problem being there seems to be a spot around 60mph where engine runs out of power and cannot go any faster, yet down a hill if speed reaches 70 I can sit at this speed untill I have to slow down for something. Anyone know if remapping would sort this? Also is 70/75mph really too fast for motorway driving bearing in mind leaving the Stranraer boat means I have probably the most of 500 miles in front of me - with 4 kids! Thanks.


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## brillopad

I would hope that by re-mapping you will notice more power, 120 bhp is not very much for a van the size of yours ( looking at your avatar) mine was 174 before i had it done, i think 70 to 75 mph on a good straight road is ok , but i prefer about 65 for comfortable driving, mind you i have been known to do 80 odd to get around lorrys and get a bit in front then drop back to like i say 65 ish, i would think most mh drivers drive like this, but i could be wrong , i was once before. 

Dennis


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## Spacerunner

henede said:


> Hi all, no answers, just more questions! Driving a Renault 120bhp which is both long and high and been trying to decide for ages whether to remap or not. Mechanic says NO. Problem being there seems to be a spot around 60mph where engine runs out of power and cannot go any faster, yet down a hill if speed reaches 70 I can sit at this speed untill I have to slow down for something. Anyone know if remapping would sort this? Also is 70/75mph really too fast for motorway driving bearing in mind leaving the Stranraer boat means I have probably the most of 500 miles in front of me - with 4 kids! Thanks.


I would think that your power problems are more the result of the big lump over the cab than the engine.

My Chausson low-profile X2/50 has no problem returning 30+ mpg on good roads.


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## brillopad

Nothing like a big lump over the cab,!!! ask the wife

Dennis 

Ps hope she don't read this


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## Spacerunner

brillopad said:


> Nothing like a big lump over the cab,!!! ask the wife
> 
> Dennis
> 
> Ps hope she don't read this


I said lump......not hump! :lol: :lol:


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## henede

Realize hump/lump is the problem but as I have to live with it now as well as the wife was just wondering if remapping was the answer. Getting 22/23mpg so not really expecting any more - remapped or not.


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## dealgan

My master is a 3.0 dci140, with a very aerodynamic hump/lump :lol: 
No remap. Did consider it, but think I have enough power already !

I get anywhere from 19mpg to 25mpg.

70-75mph is about as fast as feels comfortable, and gives around the 20/21 mpg mark. Any faster & my mpg drops very quickly. I've seen 16mpg on the dash while "in a hurry" 8O 

I used to dash everywhere as quick as possible, but I tend to drive a bit slower these days & arrive a few minutes later, but much more relaxed


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## henede

What a lovely hump/bump I wish mine was as .......  

Problem being unless I have the kids out pushing (or down a hill to get speed up) I can't get to 75mph although once I reach it I can cruise all day at it or until something/someone slows me down. :evil:


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## Andysam

henede said:


> What a lovely hump/bump I wish mine was as .......
> 
> Problem being unless I have the kids out pushing (or down a hill to get speed up) I can't get to 75mph although once I reach it I can cruise all day at it or until something/someone slows me down. :evil:


It sounds suspiciously like you have a factory mapped limiter on your van.

Can I suggest contacting Vantuner who remaps many makes, even a postal remap but that will be a general map not a personalised one. He specifically can remove limiters and states that advice is free!

Postal maps start at £150. My warranty is out in 2 months and I'll be getting one. Members on the transit forum have nothing but good reports for the company.


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## dealgan

henede said:


> Problem being unless I have the kids out pushing ....


  I have this vision of a flintstone-like motorhome with everyone's feet down through the floor running like crazy 

I am not surprised about being able to maintain the higher speed after a downhill run. I have seen the same thing with my own where you think you have reached Vmax, but get faster downhill & manage to keep the higher speed on the flat. (On my own private land, of course)


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## henede

It sounds suspiciously like you have a factory mapped limiter on your van.

Can I suggest contacting Vantuner who remaps many makes, even a postal remap but that will be a general map not a personalised one. He specifically can remove limiters and states that advice is free!

Don't THINK I have a limiter on the van - just lack of power to get past this speed.

Vantuner looks good and I might try them. Ta


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## teemyob

brillopad said:


> Yes me. Dennis


Brabus do a kit, and you get it done By almost any Mercedes Dealer. As far as I know it is only for the X15 and X18 Series Engines on these Sprinters.

For the 2.2-liter CDI engine of the 215, 315 and 415 CDI models BRABUS offers its 
PowerXtra D3 (III) performance kit. The kit can be installed by any authorized Mercedes-
Benz dealer in about 30 minutes, and turns the common-rail turbodiesel engine into a high-
torque power pack. At 2,000 rpm it produces a peak torque of 380 Nm; enough pulling power 
to easily handle just about any traffic situation. Maximum power output increases from 
standard 150 hp / 110 kW to 180 hp / 132 kW at 4,000 rpm.

For the top-of-the-line turbodiesel models Sprinter 218, 318 and 418 CDI BRABUS has 
designed the PowerXtra D6 (III) performance kit. It bumps maximum power output to 224 hp 
/ 165 kW and produces a bullish peak torque of 480 Nm between 1,600 and 2,600 rpm. That 
makes the performance-tuned Sprinter � empty or loaded � a prime example for the kind of 
elasticity that promotes relaxed driving without constant downshifting.


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## teemyob

*Mercedes*

Mercedes Info here


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