# Schengen



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

https://eeas.europa.eu/sites/default/files/visa_waiver_faqs_en.pdf


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

So when ya cummin?

Ray.


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> https://eeas.europa.eu/sites/default/files/visa_waiver_faqs_en.pdf


And your point is?


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

If we all had to have a point Mike, there would be fewer posts.

I was just posting some info I came across.


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## 242633 (Oct 21, 2021)

I hope this is in the correct Thread. The links cover the EU 90 Day Stay Calculator; the waiver of the 90 Day Stay limit if you are travelling with an EU Member State Passport holding spouse in the Border Guards Operational Manual Section 2.1.2 starting at the foot Page 17; and the proposed EU Entry-Exit System Database that will enable overstayers/unauthorised persons to be identified at Schengen Border Control Points.

https://ec.europa.eu/assets/home/visa-calculator/calculator.htm
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/system/files_en?file=2019-10/c2019-7131-annex.pdf
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/p...s-and-visa/smart-borders/entry-exit-system_en

Steve


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Gosh, I'm glad I don't have to wade through all that.

Ray.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Can someone precis it all please as I have to get the dinner on soon...........


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Had ours, salmon new spuds, cauliflower and runner beans


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

patp said:


> Can someone precis it all please as I have to get the dinner on soon...........


Basically you are now (thanks to Brexit) only allowed 90 days in the EU or Schengen countries in any 180. Totally ruins our regular long jaunts as we generally leave early summer June / July and come back November. I did think of a way round it either starting in Ireland, ferry to Cherbourg, France, Italy etc then maybe a month or two in Croatia before spending a couple of weeks coming back in Autumn through Schengen.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

That side of travelling to Europe is a piece of pee compared to trying to get your dog into Europe. Anyone would think it was them that were Rabies free and not us. I can't see us spending the winters over there until we re negotiate the pet passport. Let's hope that Carrie and Boris want to take their pooch away with them at some stage. The Pet Passport Scheme was orchestrated by a newspaper editor who wanted to take his dog away to his villa in the South of France. He promised to support the government that brought in a pet passport.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Others say it was Chris Patten.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

The only way you could do a long winter in Spain now would be to go over to Morocco for maybe 45 days inbetween otherwise if you arrive in November you will be heading home mid January.


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## 242633 (Oct 21, 2021)

barryd said:


> The only way you could do a long winter in Spain now would be to go over to Morocco for maybe 45 days inbetween otherwise if you arrive in November you will be heading home mid January.


Or, like me, be married to the holder of an Irish Passport! As long as I behave myself [always a first time] so that Elaine travels with me, as my Carer/Keeper/Muzzle Guard, I can enjoy what is effectively Freedom of Movement pre Brexit. The Regs also permit me to travel solo, switching to my personal 90 days allocation, so the combined effect is the Travel equivalent of switching from EHU to solar.

I don't think we'll be able to test the system of joint travel this year because of the need to be back in Scotland before the end of February 2022, but it seems that I shall need to carry my Birth Certificate and Marriage Certificate to prove my Bona Fides to the Border Guards.

The Schengen Visa Free Stay Calculator [the EU Personal Model that I posted a link to under the Schengen Thread today] doesn't seem to be able to cope with the 'Joint Travel' concession, so it's easier to omit any travel dates when joint travel occurs to get theCalculator to work.

Steve


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Having been a small u Ulster Unionist supporter for years the rhetoric around the rabid B word supporters finally convinced me to avail my better half and myself of a green passports.


However, thanks to a DNA result from the ancestry website I could soon perhaps also avail myself of a Scottish Blue one. 

Lang may yer lum reek. :grin2:

Terry


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

barryd said:


> Basically you are now (thanks to Brexit) only allowed 90 days in the EU or Schengen countries in any 180. Totally ruins our regular long jaunts as we generally leave early summer June / July and come back November. I did think of a way round it either starting in Ireland, ferry to Cherbourg, France, Italy etc then maybe a month or two in Croatia before spending a couple of weeks coming back in Autumn through Schengen.


Ever considered Maroc Barry? Fascinating and truly beautiful the other side of the high Atlas. We spent 90 days there touring 6 years ago, takes a week or so to become accustomed to it after that we had a brilliant time once we learned the rules and got accustomed the muezzin blasting out the call to prayer over a loudspeaker at 6 every morning.:smile2:

Perfectly safe, we wild camped everywhere. In Fez on a large carpark just outside the gate into the Medina after paying the nightwatch man 3 euros.

Only down side is availability of drink. There are places but very far apart.

Fits perfectly, 90 days EU plus 90 days Maroc in the middle

PS it was cheap too. Less than 10 miles from Spain to Tangiers.

PPS I was never able to make myself understood with my school boy French in France. However there they understood me every time:laugh::laugh:


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

The 90/180 thing is an annoyance for us rather than a show stopper. We normally go down to Spain in January for a couple of months; then are away for a month on May/June; then again for September. Now I'll just have to make sure that days have 'dropped off' before I can add too many others. To keep the maths easier I intend to plan in 30 day blocks.

We have booked our trip to Spain in January 2022 and I think we have 56 nights planned in the Schengen zone so that's fine for our trip in May.

We also fancy a short trip to Morocco on one of our future trips to Spain. Chaouen was recommended as a first dip in the water, so to speak: not too far from Tangier and with an acceptable campsite near the town.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Although we were used to staying more than 90 days I am sure that it will suffice. Just to miss January and February alone will be enough. Heard some horror stories about Maroc where local youths would stone any camper vans. It was a while ago now though so I am sure it is a bit of an urban myth.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Yes getting some winter sun in Jan and Feb is just the ticket for us. Mrs GMJ has asthma as well as the MS and 6 weeks or so in Spanish weather does wonders for it in winter.

My fingers, toes and everything else are crossed that we can get out there in January.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Glandwr said:


> Ever considered Maroc Barry? Fascinating and truly beautiful the other side of the high Atlas. We spent 90 days there touring 6 years ago, takes a week or so to become accustomed to it after that we had a brilliant time once we learned the rules and got accustomed the muezzin blasting out the call to prayer over a loudspeaker at 6 every morning.:smile2:
> 
> Perfectly safe, we wild camped everywhere. In Fez on a large carpark just outside the gate into the Medina after paying the nightwatch man 3 euros.
> 
> ...


We have been many many years ago (not in the van). I enjoyed it and I am certainly interested in different cultures but I do remember one alarming but funny in the end experience in the remote town of Taradant out in the Sahara where we left the organised tour (Against their advice) and ended up being followed around a Souk by about 40 men. I know now that it was probably the way Michelle was dressed and then straight out of an Indiana Jones movie some mad old duffer with all the traditional gear on, a great big long beard and a feckin great sword appeared and started doing his nut and looking like he was about to lob Michelles head off. Sadly unlike Indy in the film I didnt have a revolver handy or would have probably shot him.  However we relaxed when I noticed the young men running the stalls pissing themselves laughing.

The trouble is we like to do summer trips around Central and western Europe, France, Germany, Italy, Austria etc so it would mean a long trip down through Southern Spain which I am not keen on and over to Morocco I guess late in the summer. Possibility I guess but I think I fancy my Croatia idea more.


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## 242633 (Oct 21, 2021)

GMJ said:


> The 90/180 thing is an annoyance for us rather than a show stopper. We normally go down to Spain in January for a couple of months; then are away for a month on May/June; then again for September. Now I'll just have to make sure that days have 'dropped off' before I can add too many others. To keep the maths easier I intend to plan in 30 day blocks.
> 
> We have booked our trip to Spain in January 2022 and I think we have 56 nights planned in the Schengen zone so that's fine for our trip in May.
> 
> We also fancy a short trip to Morocco on one of our future trips to Spain. Chaouen was recommended as a first dip in the water, so to speak: not too far from Tangier and with an acceptable campsite near the town.


If you use the EU Schengen Stay Calculator [I posted a link yesterday] and enter the dates you have stayed, and the dates you are planning, it will automatically calculate the Days Allowed, taking account of any Days that will 'drop off' during your proposed Stay. It also displays the dates for the Start of both the 90 and 180 Days start, so you can add or deduct the odd day if you mix up the 30 and 31 Day months. Not that I've ever done this, you understand ... :wink2:

Steve


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Didn't I see a story somewhere about a new ferry service direct to Morocco from Blighty?


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

GMJ said:


> Didn't I see a story somewhere about a new ferry service direct to Morocco from Blighty?


Probably being put around by the internet fairy.:laugh:


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

marchie said:


> If you use the EU Schengen Stay Calculator [I posted a link yesterday] and enter the dates you have stayed, and the dates you are planning, it will automatically calculate the Days Allowed, taking account of any Days that will 'drop off' during your proposed Stay. It also displays the dates for the Start of both the 90 and 180 Days start, so you can add or deduct the odd day* if you mix up the 30 and 31 Day months.* Not that I've ever done this, you understand ... :wink2:
> 
> Steve


Were you no taught as a child to use your finger knuckles(ignore thumbs) and the valleys between? The knuckles are 31 days the valleys the 30(28/9). Start at the LH small finger knuckle for Jan work across the Left hand the transfer to the right and continue. That way Left and Right hand index fingers for July and August show as the only consecutive months with 31 days.

Anymore childish games you wish to know about? It is all coming back in my dotage:laugh:

Geoff


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

He's not been well you know.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

nicholsong said:


> Probably being put around by the internet fairy.:laugh:


Nope....

https://www.phc.co.uk/shipping-link-announced-between-poole-and-morocco/


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

nicholsong said:


> Were you no taught as a child to use your finger knuckles(ignore thumbs) and the valleys between? The knuckles are 31 days the valleys the 30(28/9). Start at the LH small finger knuckle for Jan work across the Left hand the transfer to the right and continue. That way Left and Right hand index fingers for July and August show as the only consecutive months with 31 days.


...so it's not just me then!

I used this method for years until the numbers stuck.


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## 242633 (Oct 21, 2021)

nicholsong said:


> Were you no taught as a child to use your finger knuckles(ignore thumbs) and the valleys between? The knuckles are 31 days the valleys the 30(28/9). Start at the LH small finger knuckle for Jan work across the Left hand the transfer to the right and continue. That way Left and Right hand index fingers for July and August show as the only consecutive months with 31 days.
> 
> Anymore childish games you wish to know about? It is all coming back in my dotage:laugh:
> 
> Geoff


Naw, I learned the verse that was printed on the back of those cheap Exercise Books, where we wrote those stories to emulate the Famous Five and the Secret Seven and The Faraway Tree ...

'30 days hath September, April, June and November ...' et seq:grin2: Childlike/childish games are the House Specialty of the Marchies ...

Steve


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I liked the times tables on the back of the exercise books, but I was crap at maphs but I distinctly remember the tune, dum dum de dum, dum dum de dum dum dum de dum dum dum de dum.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

I had a look at the calculator n put in my dates. Got the message "The exit date 05/11/21 is later than the Entry/Control date 17/09/21
Calculation of stay is not possible"

Of course my exit date is later than entry....??


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

GMJ said:


> Nope....
> 
> https://www.phc.co.uk/shipping-link-announced-between-poole-and-morocco/


What a good idea!

What we need next is a ferry to Portugal.


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## 242633 (Oct 21, 2021)

jiwawa said:


> I had a look at the calculator n put in my dates. Got the message "The exit date 05/11/21 is later than the Entry/Control date 17/09/21
> Calculation of stay is not possible"
> 
> Of course my exit date is later than entry....??


If you get that message, IIRC, you need to change the selection from 'Control' to 'Planning' and enter the proposed Leave Date in the Control Box [it's not intuitive!]

As a test, I entered 27/12/21 in the Control Box as my proposed Leaving Date; in 'Previous Stays, I entered 18/5/21 to 19/7/21 [63 days]; and then 28/10/21 to 27/12/21 for the proposed stay [61 days].

The System calculates the 90 Day Start Date as 29/9/21 and the Start Date of the 180 Day period as 1/7/21 and calculates that you will have 29 days left unused.

I then changed the Leave Date to 25/1/22, left the May to Jul previous stay unchanged [63 days] and entered 28/10/21 as the proposed Entry Date. The System changed the 90 Day Start Date to 28/10/21 and the 180 Day period start to 30/7/21, calculating the Proposed Dates as a 90 Day Stay, leaving no unused Days, but saying that a new 90 Day Stay could be authorised on 26/4/22. Trying to trick the System into planning for more stays before 26th April [because the 90 Days have been used with the October Stay], reports an Overstay, i.e. it won't take into account the 'falling off' of days from the 25th October Entry that will happen if you plan to arrive on a second new Stay on 25th April, because your total Stay in the preceding 180 Days will still show as 91 Days and therefore a 1 Day overstay.

It's clear as mud! BUT if you select 'Planning' instead of 'Control' and enter your proposed Leaving Date in the 'Date of Entry/Control' Box, the system will do the calculations for you, as long as the proposed Leave Date is updated where necessary in the 'Date of Entry/Control' Box.Honest!

Steve


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

It's worth remembering that it is days and not nights that have to be accounted for I think. 

This is logical if you were to nip to Calais for a day shopping, for example, it would be 1 day used. However my mind thinks in terms of nights spent somewhere. Therefore my trip in January will be 56 nights but in effect, 57 days out of the 90 I can use in that rolling 90 day block.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Not that it effects me, but if you spent 2 months in, Croatia for instance, only passing through the Schengen to get there and back would you still have 90 days less your travel time?


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Good question Jan, although as you say it wouldn't affect you but would affect any non Schengen area passport holders.

If you were passing through and it could be proven , then yes I guess it would count. I suppose the question boils down to whether every Schengen border is staffed with border guards.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

What we really need is a system where we can freely cross borders in the EU without time constraints.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> What we really need is a system where we can freely cross borders in the EU without time constraints.


Yes Kev like we have had for the last 40 years. What a good idea.!

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Nooooo, what happened?


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

JanHank said:


> Not that it effects me, but if you spent 2 months in, Croatia for instance, only passing through the Schengen to get there and back would you still have 90 days less your travel time?


This was the trip I planned loosely.

Set off early June to Ireland which I think we are allowed to tour without eating into our Schengen time, July and August and early September in France, Italy or wherever in Schengen then into Croatia for maybe six weeks then two weeks in late October to get over the Alps and a slow meander home. I guess you could miss out Ireland for a shorter trip.

Croatia however does not really have Aires and wilding is difficult so we would be forced onto sites. Maybe ASCI do some good ones perhaps.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

barryd said:


> This was the trip I planned loosely.
> 
> Set off early June to Ireland which I think we are allowed to tour without eating into our Schengen time, July and August and early September in France, Italy or wherever in Schengen then into Croatia for maybe six weeks then two weeks in late October to get over the Alps and a slow meander home. I guess you could miss out Ireland for a shorter trip.
> 
> Croatia however does not really have Aires and wilding is difficult so we would be forced onto sites. Maybe ASCI do some good ones perhaps.


......maybe..........perhaps.....????????


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> ......maybe..........perhaps.....????????


Covid and new van permitting I Guess. Not doing all that in this one.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

To be fair to your old tank, it does seem to have a will to live.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

It does but I dont have enough confidence in it anymore to drag it over the Alps or Pyrenees etc. Biggest issue would probably be parts if something went wrong.


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## 242633 (Oct 21, 2021)

GMJ said:


> It's worth remembering that it is days and not nights that have to be accounted for I think.
> 
> This is logical if you were to nip to Calais for a day shopping, for example, it would be 1 day used. However my mind thinks in terms of nights spent somewhere. Therefore my trip in January will be 56 nights but in effect, 57 days out of the 90 I can use in that rolling 90 day block.


True. And the real PITA is, if your ferry arrives in Calais at 23:55 and the return departs for Dover at 00:05, that's 2 days of your 90 used! :frown2:

Steve


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

barryd said:


> It does but I dont have enough confidence in it anymore to drag it over the Alps or Pyrenees etc. Biggest issue would probably be parts if something went wrong.


How old is Hank?

We have just done Poland-Slovakia-Austria-Italy-Greece, and back, in our 18-year old Arto.

I reckon it could have another 10 years in it, but me?

Geoff


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> How old is Hank?
> 
> We have just done Poland-Slovakia-Austria-Italy-Greece, and back, in our 18-year old Arto.
> 
> ...


25!! 1996 Vintage but dont forget, its had a hard life! A lot of long big trips and a lot of mountains. Had it 13+ years now!

I dare say it would be fine but I think its done enough.  Bikes about knackered as well. Will need a new one of them also. Start a whip round!


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Good idea but who'd whip it.


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## 242633 (Oct 21, 2021)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> Good idea but who'd whip it.


The creme de la creme? 'You can't beat our eggs, but you can whip our cream ...' :grin2:

Steve


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## Cherekee (May 1, 2005)

Because I have an apartment in Tenerife and this 90/180 rule is giving extra hassle with wanting to use the Rapido as well in Europe, I see that some others think the same as me. Lets hope it comes to something.

Picked up this article a few days ago which may be of interest to some of you.

Alan

https://www.canarianweekly.com/posts/ministers-demand-change-rule-brits-spain


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

IIRC EU residents can stay in the UK for up to 180 days in one go (happy to be corrected if I'm wrong) so maybe Spain will want/try and adopt that?

It'll not increase the allowance but turn it into a 180/360 I guess.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I wonder how the EU would feel about relaxations or reinterpretations of the rules?

It might be very good for tourism and for accommodating Brits but I doubt we can expect sector by sector relaxations of EU rules to suit Britain's needs. It might be argued, just this one please, but that will be argued in every case because every special interest will see their sector as meriting exceptional treatment. If an exception is made for one third country would it be expected by all other third countries? And if so would they retaliate if they didn't get them? 

I don't see how it can be done.


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## 242633 (Oct 21, 2021)

IMHO, this is wishful thinking. The motorhome and 2nd property communities combined [I have a foot in both camps!] are relatively small in number and not renowned for spending vast amounts of money on tourism [proud boasts of FLT motorhomers]. It is also difficult, and therefore costly to monitor the comings and goings of individuals, and a key appeal of the new EU Entry/Exit System is that it is smart enough not to require lots of extra Border Guards, resulting in the System paying for itself within 4 years of introduction.

Contrast the above with the Package Holiday Industry where the Holiday Company does much of the arrival/departure admin via API Declarations etc and delivers, literally, planeloads of 150'ish per batch, who can be processed via airport scanners and delivered to hotels within a couple of hours and who, [stereotypically], will be out on the town for food and alcohol in prodigious quantities to get the most from their holiday stay in the resort entertainment venues.

Spain and Portugal said as soon as the Brexit rules were mooted that they would be laying on extra booths and facilities to get Brits through the airport and into the resorts as quickly as possible, and this makes an awful lot of sense if a country wants to boost its tourism revenues. Real 'Bangs for your Bucks' stuff!

It seems also that German, Dutch, Swedish and French motorhomers have filled up the gap left by the British motorhomers who can no longer spend the entire Winter in Spain and/or Portugal

Steve


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

As far as I can tell its just the president or whatever they are called of Valencia that is currently calling for the extension to 180 days for Brits and there are 17 Spanish regions (I think). However it kind of makes sense for this Schengen rule bending just for us as I believe Europeans get a 180 day stay in the UK if they want it. Add to that the geographical fact that we are just 22 miles away and half a million of us have homes there it does make sense. I cant see a reason why the EU / Schengen would object to it but I can imagine our Brexit government not pushing for it or championing it.

There was talk in 2016 from EU MEPs to fight for Britains to retain their EU citizenship. It was argued that our government despite the referendum had no right to remove our citizenship which we have enjoyed since 1993. Of course Johnson and Team Brexit wanted nothing to do with any of that.


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

As a resident in a EU state within Schengen i am allowed to stay in that state as long as i like but as a British passport holder i am still not supposed to stay within the rest of Schengen for more than 90 days in 180 how they will control this without border controls i do not know maybe i will have to have a chip fitted and they have scanners on every border


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

bilbaoman said:


> As a resident in a EU state within Schengen i am allowed to stay in that state as long as i like but as a British passport holder i am still not supposed to stay within the rest of Schengen for more than 90 days in 180 how they will control this without border controls i do not know maybe i will have to have a chip fitted and they have scanners on every border


Is that right Bill.?? I was understanding that we could drift around Europe at 'will'.

Ray.


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

raynipper said:


> Is that right Bill.?? I was understanding that we could drift around Europe at 'will'.
> 
> Ray.


Yes its right if you read the withdrawal agreement we are treated differently to an Schengan citizen who as nationality you also cannot go an live in another Schengan state without meeting the new requirements for a British passport holder:frown2::frown2::frown2:


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Well bang goes my ignorance plea. I was happy this morning.:crying::crying:

Ray.


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

I read these threads about how long folk want to stay and "please sign the petition to get pet passports sorted" and I ask a couple of questions:

1 Did you vote Leave?

2 Did you get what you thought the outcome would be?

If the answer is "yes, yes" then you should be happy. :smile2:
If the answer is "yes, no" then you should consider yourself chastised.
If the answer is "no, yes" then you have a reason to feel miffed. :frown2:
If the answer is "no, no" then that is democracy (as exemplified by the referendum). :wink2::wink2:

Gordon


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

raynipper said:


> Is that right Bill.?? I was understanding that we could drift around Europe at 'will'.
> 
> Ray.


Ray

You have not been keeping up at the back there.

People who have taken up Citizenship in an EU country can move at will.

Residents who are not EU Nationals nor Citizens, but only Residents can remain in their country of Residence for ever(subject to renewal of Residence Permit, which cannot be refused), but are restricted to 90/180 outside that country.

That is the law, but the chances of being caught without internal border controls are small.

Geoff


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## Cherekee (May 1, 2005)

H1-GBV said:


> I read these threads about how long folk want to stay and "please sign the petition to get pet passports sorted" and I ask a couple of questions:
> 
> 1 Did you vote Leave?
> 
> ...


Except as I have said before if you live the Channel Islands we did not have a vote but had to abide by the outcome which ever way it went, If our local Governments had done the Brexit Talks I bet it would have been a better outcome all around. Hence why I am peed off about the limit. Who came up with that plan. They would be dangerous if they had a brain.

Alan


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## Cherekee (May 1, 2005)

nicholsong said:


> Ray
> 
> You have not been keeping up at the back there.
> 
> ...


Except when this starts in 2023 and then you/we will be pinged every time we cross a border. That is why these countries mandate the Covid Vaccine to travel into. It had a chip in the juice just like they said it had> Must be right as Donald said so.


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

There was a fund raising campaign a few years ago by the Basque separatists which gave you citizenship if you contributed to their fund i still have mine so if they ever win independence and stay in the EU i will be ok


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## 242633 (Oct 21, 2021)

barryd said:


> As far as I can tell its just the president or whatever they are called of Valencia that is currently calling for the extension to 180 days for Brits and there are 17 Spanish regions (I think). However it kind of makes sense for this Schengen rule bending just for us as I believe Europeans get a 180 day stay in the UK if they want it. Add to that the geographical fact that we are just 22 miles away and half a million of us have homes there it does make sense. I cant see a reason why the EU / Schengen would object to it but I can imagine our Brexit government not pushing for it or championing it.
> 
> There was talk in 2016 from EU MEPs to fight for Britains to retain their EU citizenship. It was argued that our government despite the referendum had no right to remove our citizenship which we have enjoyed since 1993. Of course Johnson and Team Brexit wanted nothing to do with any of that.


UK gave EU Visitors a 180 days stay as a default, IIRC, to sit alongside the same period for non EU Visitors. EU offered a reciprocal arrangement for UK visitors to Schengen, but, such was the hype about controlling immigration and celebrating the ending of Freedom Of Movement [Ms Patel is but one Minister who is proud of this 'achievement'] that it was deemed an offer that was too good to be refused at a time when the Tories were up to their oxters mollifying Gammons and Kippers galore.

So, having refused the 180 days EU Stay Offer when it was on the Table, and having broken the Withdrawal Agreement and threatened the invocation of Article 16 against the EU and a unilateral revocation of the NI Protocol, why would the EU feel encouraged to relaunch the Offer as a 'Black Friday Bonus' style of opportunity and risk further UK petulance in response?

Steve


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

marchie said:


> UK gave EU Visitors a 180 days stay as a default, IIRC, to sit alongside the same period for non EU Visitors. EU offered a reciprocal arrangement for UK visitors to Schengen, but, such was the hype about controlling immigration and celebrating the ending of Freedom Of Movement [Ms Patel is but one Minister who is proud of this 'achievement'] that it was deemed an offer that was too good to be refused at a time when the Tories were up to their oxters mollifying Gammons and Kippers galore.
> 
> So, having refused the 180 days EU Stay Offer when it was on the Table, and having broken the Withdrawal Agreement and threatened the invocation of Article 16 against the EU and a unilateral revocation of the NI Protocol, why would the EU feel encouraged to relaunch the Offer as a 'Black Friday Bonus' style of opportunity and risk further UK petulance in response?
> 
> Steve


Did they? So just to be clear, we were offered 180 days in mainland Europe but declined it? WTF? Why dont I know about this? Do you have a source for this you can link to please? Not saying you are incorrect but ill be amazed if I or anyone else missed this.


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## Cherekee (May 1, 2005)

I see I forgot to add this link yesterday. Bet you wondered what I was prattling on about. I think you get an electronic card which you have to keep with you. Every border you cross you will get pinged. So there will be no cheating on the 90/180 rule where ever you go. The locals will need one too so if they go into another Schengen State that is also logged. Sorry Ray.

Alan

https://etias.com/


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Naarrrr, don't apply to me Alan.:evil3:

Ray.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

raynipper said:


> Naarrrr, don't apply to me Alan.:evil3:
> 
> Ray.


Yes it wont apply to you Ray if you look at the FAQs










I cant see how it would ping you on internal borders either. Ive crossed over many internal borders in mainland Europe where its not always obvious apart from a small sign that you have. I remember one day going in and out of Switzerland several times on back roads and not being sure which country I was in.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

The ping idea might work in airports and some major crossings, but beyond that I doubt it.

It would be next to impossible to make it in any way provide a reliable record of who went where when.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Yes I cant see every back road/minor road/single track, being policed/monitored across every border of every country. I guess they could have transmitting/receiving devices in towns local to border areas bur even then that wouldn't be fool proof.


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

An electronic card would not work all you need is a shield like you have for your bank cards to make it useless


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

That's a good point.


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## 242633 (Oct 21, 2021)

barryd said:


> Did they? So just to be clear, we were offered 180 days in mainland Europe but declined it? WTF? Why dont I know about this? Do you have a source for this you can link to please? Not saying you are incorrect but ill be amazed if I or anyone else missed this.


 I'll do some digging around and will post a Link, Barry. The Offer dates back to the uncertainty over EU Citizens Rights in UK and the obverse for the UK citizens [mainly] in France and Spain, whose rights and futures were fairly low down the UK Gov Priority List. There were various mentions in Guardian articles, but the majority of MSM, tended to support/lead the anti immigration/abolish Free Movement mantra, so the coverage was pretty thin. As a Paid Up 'Anorak of Distinction [Fur Trim and Hood]' member, I tend to spend silly amounts of time looking up articles and the legal texts etc

Steve

Update at 10:17 The search results only provide articles on how the 90/180 days Schengen Stay work. But I did find a link to Hansard [https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords...72391/EuropeanUnion(NotificationOfWithdrawal] from March 2017 showing Amber Rudd declaring a pride in the drive to end Free Movement, and the 'EU punishing UK/Using Brits in EU as hostages' rhetoric, so it's around that time, whilst negotiations were plodding along and EU kept reminding UK that the Article 50 clock was ticking ...

I have Michel Barnier's EU negotiation Diary on my 'to read' list, so I may be able to find a specific reference in there to the tourism angle

Steve


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## 242633 (Oct 21, 2021)

Update 2: 10:49 Michel Barnier's ['MB'] Brexit Diary for Friday 5 May 2017 at the Palazzo Vecchio, Florence Meeting with Ms May refers to a speech by MBon the protection of rights of citizens in the upcoming negotiations. 'My aim is simple; to allow all those citizens, UK & EU, to retain the rights that they have enjoyed prior to the UK's withdrawal ...'

This is consistent with a legal opinion given by Sir David Edward, former EU Judge of the First and Second Instance, and then Professor Emeritus of Law at Edinburgh University, that EU citizen rights are permanent and cannot be extinguished by a change of membership

The UK obsession with ending Free Movement killed off the possibility of EU matching the UK concession of 180 day stays ...

Steve


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

An EU citizen even with the freedom of movement cannot stay in another EU country more than 90 days unless they register in that country so the Eu cannot offer more than 90 days unless they change their rules


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

bilbaoman said:


> An EU citizen even with the freedom of movement cannot stay in another EU country more than 90 days unless they register in that country so the Eu cannot offer more than 90 days unless they change their rules


But they can go to another country and in practice because they are already within the schengen zone nobody would ever know how long they spent anywhere. I think the 90 day thing for the EU members per country is just there as a way of possibly removing problomatic long term visitors. A bit like the 24 hr thing on some Aires. Nobody cares.


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## Cherekee (May 1, 2005)

Just picked this up from a Tenerife website I use. I have copied and pasted from that.

Alan

"From 2023 the EU will have ETIAS, a U.S. style electronic travel authorization system for visitors from non-EU countries not considered security risks. Previously, you’ve had visa-free access to the EU and Schengen member countries but no longer because the EU is intent now on policing its borders not just for security reasons but to be prepared for the massive migration that is anticipated in all parts within and outside the continent as the climate emergency worsens.

Technically ETIAS is a visa waiver rather than a visa, but in addition to the digital screening of travellers entering and leaving EU countries, access to Spain will involve the following for non EU tourists or business visitors to the EU:

Additional security checks prior to being allowed to enter the EU because access will no longer be unrestricted
A fee
Being tracked so as to ensure compliance with rules, including exit requirements (90-day rule)
This does not affect British or other third-country nationals who are legally resident in Spain, but might perhaps be useful for everybody to be aware of it anyway in case they are caught up in the new restrictions that will apply to tourists and other visitors."


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

Cherekee said:


> Just picked this up from a Tenerife website I use. I have copied and pasted from that.
> 
> Alan
> 
> ...


Should not affect you as you live close enough to travel to France by dinghy you may be eligible for the new Home Office recycling scheme which will allow British passport holders to use it stock of surplus dinghys and life jackets for this purpose


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## 242633 (Oct 21, 2021)

bilbaoman said:


> An EU citizen even with the freedom of movement cannot stay in another EU country more than 90 days unless they register in that country so the Eu cannot offer more than 90 days unless they change their rules


I think your post is contradictory, in that the first part is correct, an EU citizen can only spend 90 days in a Schengen Zone country, BUT, that EU citizen can stay for a further 90 days in another Schengen Zone country, without a visa, and without having to move out of the Schengen Zone for 90 days. That is what Freedom of Movement entails, and the examples shown in the Border Guards Operational Manual, updated 8th Oct 2019, starting at the foot of Page 17 show that the right to enjoy consecutive periods of 90 days stays in different Schengen Zone countries extend also to accompanying spouses and family members, even if the family member is a Third Country resident,without a change of EU Rules

The example to which I refer shows a Third Country member, married to an EU citizen, staying for 3 months, 3 months and then 2 months in 3 Schengen countries under joint travel arrangements. There is a further clarification in the examples that a] the Joint Travel under Freedom of Movement does not count against the Third Country citizen's 90 days/180 days allowance; and b] the Third Country member spouse can enjoy the 90 days allowance for solo travel without having to leave Schengen

My wife holds an Irish Passport and we plan to use the Freedom of Movement provisions detailed from Page 17 onwards for our European Travels together

Steve


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Cherekee said:


> Just picked this up from a Tenerife website I use. I have copied and pasted from that.
> 
> Alan
> 
> ...


...and from what I have read, they will cost too. Nor much but still another cost as a result of the B word!


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## Cherekee (May 1, 2005)

GMJ said:


> ...and from what I have read, they will cost too. Nor much but still another cost as a result of the B word!


€7.00 from what I have read for 3 years.

Alan


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## Cherekee (May 1, 2005)

bilbaoman said:


> Should not affect you as you live close enough to travel to France by dinghy you may be eligible for the new Home Office recycling scheme which will allow British passport holders to use it stock of surplus dinghys and life jackets for this purpose


As long as I have finished my ham sandwiches and apple pie by the time I get there I should be fine. With the size of some of the dingies I have seen I could tow the van across on one.

Alan


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

You should be ok with the apple pie...





...but the ham sarnies are another matter entirely!


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

GMJ said:


> You should be ok with the apple pie...
> 
> ...but the ham sarnies are another matter entirely!


Not if the pastry was made with lard or butter:laugh:


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I must admit out of all the things I hate about Brexit, not being able to take British food or drink to France is about as low down my list as whether or not to take five pairs of flip flops or just four.

Its like taking coal to Newcastle as someone probably once said.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

My pet hate is the failure to secure a Pet Passport scheme. Next on the list is the fact that you cannot take your dog's food with you  Lots of second homes will be up for sale.


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

barryd said:


> I must admit out of all the things I hate about Brexit, not being able to take British food or drink to France is about as low down my list as whether or not to take five pairs of flip flops or just four.
> 
> Its like taking coal to Newcastle as someone probably once said.


Totally agree Baz although we travel with every nook and cranny stuffed with edibles. Mrs G, a frugal soul, aims to spend as little as possible on eating out and as we have a big fridge and separate frezzer spends weeks cooking dishes to take with us. A bone of contention between us. Hopefully thje new regs will bring freedom for us.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Glandwr said:


> Not if the pastry was made with lard or butter:laugh:


There is an exemption for cooked items where the constituents are a minor part of the end product I believe. So apple pies, pastries and bread for example are OK.


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

AS i have never heard of anyone being fined for importing banned food into the EU for self consumption so the worst it will be confiscated so you can play the game with their customs until they become like Austrialia and make you sign a declaration that you have no banned products


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## 242633 (Oct 21, 2021)

barryd said:


> I must admit out of all the things I hate about Brexit, not being able to take British food or drink to France is about as low down my list as whether or not to take five pairs of flip flops or just four.
> 
> Its like taking coal to Newcastle as someone probably once said.


I thought it was taking Cole to Newcastle, which I think is what Kevin Keegan did ... :grin2:

Steve


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## 242633 (Oct 21, 2021)

Glandwr said:


> Totally agree Baz although we travel with every nook and cranny stuffed with edibles. Mrs G, a frugal soul, aims to spend as little as possible on eating out and as we have a big fridge and separate frezzer spends weeks cooking dishes to take with us. A bone of contention between us. Hopefully thje new regs will bring freedom for us.


If ever we meet up on site, we should keep our respective wives apart! Elaine ordered 30kg of Porridge Oats online [plus some other grain products] to get Free Delivery in 2017 [courier still has the hernia]; and on our last Winter Trip to Spain, we did end up with 26 bags of coffee ...

Steve


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

GMJ said:


> There is an exemption for cooked items where the constituents are a minor part of the end product I believe. So apple pies, pastries and bread for example are OK.


 I was just going by the C4 dispatches programme this week about our export difficulties and how many firms were relocating to the Netherlands. One company (something like "UK Corner Shop") that specialised in delivering groceries and corner shop items to EU customers were recruiting 100 odd workers and setting up wharehouses in Holland. The MD said that the final straw was discovering was not able to send Walkers cheese and onion crisps without paperwork certifying the exact origin of the cheese with every consignment that contained a pack!

Are you saying that there are exceptions for personal consumption?


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

_*"The following products are exempted from the rules set out in points 1 to 6:

bread, cakes, biscuits, waffles and wafers, rusks, toasted bread and similar toasted products containing less than 20 % of processed dairy and egg products..."*_

it's from Annex 111 right down towards the bottom of this page...

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32019R2122


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Are leather shoes an animal product?


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

...only if still part of the animal Geoff!


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

GMJ said:


> _*"The following products are exempted from the rules set out in points 1 to 6:
> 
> bread, cakes, biscuits, waffles and wafers, rusks, toasted bread and similar toasted products containing less than 20 % of processed dairy and egg products..."*_
> 
> ...


Thanks for that Graham. It looks as though you would have to make sure that there was plenty of apple in the pie though. Short crust pastry would typically have 30% or more animal fat in it if not made with vegetable fat. Definitely rules out shortbread and most other biscuits too.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't get into the semantics of butter content in the pastry of an apple pie or indeed a pack of biscuits. From what I've seen of French Border Guards they have enough trouble rousing themselves to check a passport.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I am on a forum for people who have pets and are trying to wade through the maze of paperwork to travel, regularly, with their pets. Many of them are frequent travellers with second homes in Europe and they are reporting that they are not being checked for anything other than drugs.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Fortunately I haven't heard of any feedback regarding foodstuffs in motorhomes. Whilst I take Barry's point about not wanting to take food/drink into France it is easier for us to have enough on board until we hit a supermarket on our trip to Spain each winter. Plus we do like a home made curry so we have a few of them in the freezer on board too.


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