# FreeLoader's days are numbered



## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

While the Freeloader's days seen to be numbered in Southern Spain, it will effect the more sensible wilderness/wild camper………..

Almost every week in the local Brit and National newspapers and on radio phone- in's, down here on the "Costa's", there are complaints about Motorhomes camping in car parks, beach fronts, side streets etc………It has been debated many times on this and other sites…....But now in some areas it is getting out of hand and the authorities are taking a serious look at the problem.

I have just come back from a few days in Portugal and met up with a group of Mhomes, 30 in all with about 15 being Brits. They were camped on a sea-front car-park, awnings, tables, washing etc……and thought it hilarious that they had been moved on a few times but it was OK "You just come back in a few days". And these where NOT travellers/Gypsies or whatever……Some I suppose you would call them full-timers others saw and took advantage. A couple said that thay had moved onto Portugal from Spain, where they had got fed up with the police moving them on in the middle of the night.....Shame!

The area around Terifa has a growing and on-going problem with these "Wild Campers" [see the letter below]. Drive along the N340 say between Almeria and Estepona and you will find dozens of these un-official Motorhome sites.

It would not be half as bad if these "wild campers" went to the effort of finding a rubbish disposal point……instead of looking at the pile of rubbish, in carrier bags and black sacks, stacked around an otherwise adequate rubbish bin……and complaining! Where they dump their Thetfords is another story.

The excuse that they like the seclusion is an obvious nonsense, as is the crowded and noisy campsites……it's about "free-loading". If the facilities, or lack of, in Spain are a problem……stay away!

Those that do find running costs prohibitive…..before you make the sizable investment in purchasing a Motorhome are the associated costs, like camp sites etc, not taken into account……

And before I get roasted for being anti "Wild Camping"…..I am most certainly not. Personally I never use sites. I run a tour business where "wilderness" camping is a main feature. I think that one of the great pleasures in owning a Motorhome is the freedom it offers.

My Son-in-Law is a Capt in the Guadia……….let me tell you that because of the actions of the few…..your days are numbered.

There ARE people out there that would love to stop you having and enjoying your Motorhomes……why help them!

………..Errrr, I have of course now lost the newspaper cutting…….No probs, you can guess the line it took. It was just one of many with more to come!


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## zulurita (May 9, 2005)

Its to be expected I guess, people do abuse the freedom to park and set up mini campsites! I must say though that some of the campsites we have used in Spain have left a bit to be desired. Not easy to get parked up on a pitch, too cramped etc and one site we looked at in Portugal had so much loose sand/earth that I would have got stuck and if it had rained!!

It would be nice if some MH specific sites were developed for motorhomes but then Spains planning laws are something else. The Rio Grande site has run into difficulties.........and the pitch we were supposed to be buying in Almeria well........the less said about that the better.

What we need are places like France that charge a small amount or are free but approved. Looks like France will benefit from our Euros more than Spain.


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## artona (Jan 19, 2006)

I reckon a group of us should get together and buy a piece of land

stew


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## zulurita (May 9, 2005)

*MH Friendly Parking*

A good idea Stew,

Mind you we were going to join Rio Grande but then didn't as I was still working at the time. To another venture we did pay £5500 that I am upset about  as nothing much is happening and the first registered name is now dissolved, thats where our money was and a second registered name is trying to set up something but as this has been going on since 2003 I don't see any hope of anything much happening. I'm not mentioning the name for legal reasons. But beware its not easy as Rio Grande has found out.


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## artona (Jan 19, 2006)

Hi Rita

I think I remember seeing an internet site about Rio Grande, have you a link. It would be worth analyzing what has caused the hick-up. Not suggesting that Rio Grande is but Spain is a hot-bed of crooked deals.

stew


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

Nice idea Stew...but do you think that once the "Freeloaders" have trashed car parks and blighted some sea fronts they [the Spanish authorities] are going to approve formal sights......pariculay if owned by a group of Motorhome owners........

And, from the local Spanish point of view the Rio Grande site NEVER did have the planning or authority.......

But given the known campsite conditions/problems, that only seen to concern a few, why not do what was posted on an Andalusian Web Forum recently........stay away!


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## zulurita (May 9, 2005)

*MH Friendly Parking*

Ray you seem to be against outfits like Rio Grande, am I right?

I thought when we were interested, following a letter in MMM about doing something like that, that they were trying to set things up properly with planning permissions etc.........?

I'm not against campsites and we have stayed in some. But access to pitches and overcrowded conditions in some are an issue.


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

Hi Zulurata

.......where did I say that?


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## 100547 (Aug 15, 2006)

*sites around valencia*

hi im new to motorhomes and im planning to move to spain in the near future so ive bought a mh with a view to touring round to find the area i want to live in id like to start my search in valencia but cant seem to find any campsites in this area is wild camping the only option? does anybody know of any? help astra.


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## patyogi (Jul 10, 2006)

*wild bad parkers*

Hi I agree with you about the problem w/p's, most are Brits and Dutch and nowadays very few Germans. I have w/p and campsited for over 10 years in Spain. Now I challenge you to tell me where to park campsite wise during the months of Nov/dec/jan/feb/mar along the golden south coast. Most sites are now only open to statics and people living here long term. A lot of the smaller sites in the areas you have spoken about are closed down.
If the Spanish truly want to solve the problem why dont they get of the money rich butts and do something about it. Wether you w/p or campsite it we all spend money in the shops and gas stations. Perhaps they should all follow me a go to France, Italy and Greece where we are welcomed and looked after as good customers when the tourist trade is at its lowest.

Patrick


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi All 

an interesting discussion which will affect us if we head to Spain for the winter.. Is this problem confined to the costas or is it throughout Spain ? 
I ask because I would love to see the 'real' Spain, as far as possible from the tourist areas.. but not if free camping is going to be problematic and sites are closed. 
Patrick mentioned Greece and Italy as alternatives .. more info on free camping or winter sites in these two counties would be useful in deciding ..


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

Hi Patyoga

There are at least 5 all year campsites open all year between Malaga and Tarifa......some good some not so......Inland there is Ronda, El Chorro, Villafranco and a few more.......

Availability or not of campsites was not my point.....even more are open now, so why the trashing of the carparks etc?

Don't hold your breath for new campsites......a golf course no problem. Fact is Motorhomes are not seen as "spenders" down here. More like a problem.......as per the point of the thread.


Hi Jim

Re our PM's......look forward to showing you "Real Spain" over the winter.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Ray... cheers , panic was setting in.. :lol: looking forward to it.. :wink:


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

Don't panic Jim. You will have no problems.

As is often the case the thread has driffed a bit......the point was about inconsiderate "wilderness" campers [who are not even wilderness campers, more like carpark cruisers]. Not the lack of sites, which there isn't.


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## patyogi (Jul 10, 2006)

*Wildparking*

Hi Jim
Campers are welcomed at most towns or villages inland, just pop of the golden 5km strip all down the coast and explore, Granada is wonderful as is Valencia. There are hundreds of places to stop and visit, just keep away from the tourist honeypots.
If you must visit the beachs the most beautiful one i have been to and stayed (campsite & wild parking ) is La Manga, just below Cartagena.
Around xmas it's packed with C.C ralliers so called.
You can usually get in if you book ahead. Expensive for a few nights but gets cheaper if your stay is longer, plus the weather is great in the winter.

Patrick


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Patrick 

Thanks for the reassurance, it's what we had planned, having visited a few honeypots in the past, once was enough.. same goes for most countries not just Spain, even Scotland has places best avoided, keep off the tourist trail and you can discover some real gems ..


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## 90740 (May 1, 2005)

We've spent a few winters in Spain and must admit that we've never had a problem wild parking in all areas, apart from the Costas. My wife and I are both fluent Spanish speakers, my wife's first language is Spanish, and that helps a lot. 

When they know you can communicate effectively, rather than the usual Hola, Spain becomes a very interesting country to travel through. We've been fortunate enough to have been invited to park up in someone's Finca and in one occasion alongside their house with electrics included !

Conversation with the older generation reveals a country with deep wounds yet to heal. The Civil War, Franco, property confiscation, extradition and mass murder still leave their frustrations in modern Spain. Now that Spain is part of the EU a new found confidence has opened up some of those issues today, especially in the Catalunya and Costas area. 

Particularly in the Costas there are a lot of expats living the 'dream'. The usual fish and chip shops, corner shops, Irish bars and the likes compete and in some cases destroy the Spanish atmosphere. English businesses, usually dodgy and tax evasive by nature, spring up on most corners and no doubt that in itself leads to an element of frustration from the locals. Scratch deeper the surface of the Andalucian coastline and many complimentary unresolved issues are still there today.

Although the expats are permanent in the Costas very few can speak the language. There's almost an intention to create a big bit of home in the sun. 

The many Spanish I have spoken with are not too happy with the invasion . In the early days tourism was seen as a saviour post Franco. Problem is many tourists moved there permanently. Some have contributed whilst others have abused. Unfortunately the motorhomer has become the easier target of the two, ironically targeted by the expat as well. Helps shift the blame and absorb yourself in to perceived Spanish culture I suppose.


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## RobMD (May 9, 2005)

Apart from the frequent overcrowding in many campsites that are open during the winter, I object when I'm charged in excess of €20 if I stay less than a week or 10 days.
I prefer to move on after 3 or 4 days max, and for my own piece of mind would rather use a campsite, but the charges some of them make for short stays are little more than a rip-off!

I agree, those that stay long term on car parks etc. can be a nuisance but even they have to eat, drink, buy fuel and other items, so surely it would be better to encourage sites to charge reasonable rates and Motorhomers to use them rather than trying to drive them away altogether.


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## 100322 (Aug 2, 2006)

Could someone give me a definition of a free loader please.


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## desertsong (Mar 8, 2006)

Hello folks,

Some interesting points brought up by Detourer. I agree with a lot of what you say about the mentality of certain motorhomers and the way in which certain locals and authorities respond to them. However, they bring most of the resentment on themselves by their own narrow minded, niggardly attitudes. 

It amazes me how people can spend so much money on a leisure vehicle then spend the rest of their lives trying to live on the cheap ferreting out the best Lidl deals and the like. Now I know a fool and his money are easily parted and there’s no excuse for throwing the stuff away as it’s hard to get in the first place, but there is a certain amount of hypocrisy here.

If I was the mayor of a small town I’d quake when I see motorhomes arrive in my square. Recently in Bernkastel I was on the sharp end of it, but from the locals point of view in a small town, I could see their point. 

The car park has an area for coaches, each one bringing near enough sixty people. How many in a day arrive there, I couldn’t guess, for arguments sake, say twenty, ten in the morning and ten in the afternoon. That’s nearly 1200 people. Now even if they only spend £20 or so wandering round the shops and cafes, that’s around £25,000 a day everyday going into the local economy, and that’s only a few coaches for a couple of hours each stopping by. If motorhomes grab these places the busses couldn’t park. Ten motorhomes would sit there all day, shop at Lidl and for £20 eat for three days and contribute nothing to the local economy and prevent the others from earning a crust. So, when I parked, a very polite warden jumped out of nowhere and directed me to the stellplatz across the bridge, a sort of homelands for motorhomes and then I walked back across into the town.

All along the Mosel there were motorhomers. They weren’t even considerate to each other, some taking more space than they needed to “establish their territory” with their awnings and table and chairs spread as wide as possible. They did not endear themselves to anyone. Now if I was a fly on the wall, or even a local providing services to these people, I would be unhappy with the bulk of them. Cheapskate is the word that comes to mind. Sure there are some decent ones, but the bulk contributed nothing, enjoy what they can, take their pictures and apart from petrol and a few provisions, spend as little as possible. They park up in the afternoon, put on the kettle and the telly and that’s their day. They might as well stay at home or go to the Darby and Joan Club. 

Now if they were to set up semi-permanently next to me, I’d be unhappy with a load of Swampy wannabees and alternative people abusing and showing no respect and consideration for what I pay my taxes for. I have seen this in France too were we also live in a small village, which is the reason why in France that you are only allowed to stay overnight for two nights. This law originally came out to give gypsies rights to park and locals peace of mind that they won’t be there forever, but it applies to all.

Good discussion, Detourer, but I think also that you’re off target in describing wildcampers as freeloaders. It’s not actually free, just life on the cheap. Also, it implies that if you get anything without payment, then you’re freeloading. Thinking like that you’d have to pay to breath. It’s not all a question of money, but attitude.

Sorry this is so long.
Willie


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"which is the reason why in France that you are only allowed to stay overnight for two nights. This law originally came out to give gypsies rights to park and locals peace of mind that they won’t be there forever, but it applies to all."

Yes, I was aware of this and I've seen in practice how gypsies respect it. It is a wonderful example of a simple, well understood, law that aims to be fair to all sides, and it works because it is enforced.

Why we can't do the same in the UK I simply don't understand.

Dave


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

Hi Willie

Good points and is very much as I see it.

Point about "Wild/Wilderness" campers and "Free-Loaders". I do see and think there is a difference. I see the wild/wilderness campers in and around the area I live. Tucked into lay-by's, woodland clearings, on the remote hills etc…..even in corners of venta's [road cafes]…..they are usually alone or with maybe one other. Their interests are nature, the environment, walking etc….or they just enjoy the freedom and doing it alone. They use cafes, visit places of interest [entry fee], seek out local events etc etc etc. It's a life-style and one that lends itself to motorhomeing and is not necessarily a cheap option. I run tours too Morocco that motorhome owners _pay_ to join……one of the main features of these tours is the remote and wilderness camping we offer. So, like I say, not entirely a style of holiday or use of motorhome based on financial saving…….

Freeloaders are different. I also come across these, as mentioned in my earlier post. I think group camping in car parks, dodging the police and boasting about how little you spend says it all…………And I am not talking gypsy, more like Brits in £50 plus motorhomes.

The problem is that the Site Campers, Wilderness/Wild Campers and the Tourers are in danger of being tar'd with the same brush as the Freeloader……you are only different when and where you stop!

I am 100% for and behind the Wilderness and Wild Camper and all I am saying is that it is becoming a "problem" down here. Just today [every week] another feature in the paper……..Campsites in the Tarifa area are running at 50% down this year….a big drop. And who has got the blame? The illegal campers…….and note the new term that I have not seen used before……….."illegal campers".

The last thing I think ALL we need to be classed as "Illegal Freeloaders"……….

Just slightly off topic…………I have just done a run/recce for a forthcoming Harley tour that I have been asked to help with…….Using my bike I cruised from San Pedro [just west of Marbella] into the hills to Ronda, back down to Alhaurin El Grande [my village], back up to El Chorro lakes and then onto Antequera. At that point the bit you sit on was getting numb so………Point being the roads have been recently improved, still twisty, but wider and smoother. It was a FANTASTIC run with I would say dozens of overnight stops, plus the formal sites. Given the places of interest and spectacular scenery it has to be at least a 3 day run in a motorhome……….don't stay on the Costa!!!


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## desertsong (Mar 8, 2006)

Hello Ray,

Good reply and thanks for the distinction re;-“Wild/Wilderness” campers and “Free-Loaders”. 

My experience is mainly in France and I have never seen this kind of problem there, but then, most of the Brits who live round our bit are either people who fly on the cheap to Bergerac for their "other home in the Dordogne". Some stay there permanently because they don't even have the cheap fare to get back, and anyway have burnt their boats back in old Blighty, or have some "story to tell", if you know what I mean. Mostly, they don't speak much French, if any, so they can't work or integrate properly. Their kids go to the local school and through them they meet more people like themselves who also don't speak French. Don't need to, too many others like them to talk to. They buy The Mail or The Sun a day late, watch Sky and otherwise they wouldn't know that they are not still in England. 

In my experience of nearly twenty years there, they all have the one single idea. They're going to have gites and "do bed and breakfast". Their tone suggests each time I hear it that it is some revelation from above and nobody has thought of it before. As time goes by and the reality sets in that their money is running out they search for some justification to go back home or just scrounge off each other. So the house, i.e., ( the barn conversion), with gites, swimming pool, big garden with fruit trees is half baked, half built and seldom comes to fruition. That's around the time they've run out of excuses for not paying the Taxe Fonciere and Taxe d'Habitation, the water rates, the sewage and gas and electricity. Suddenly, France is just as expensive as back home. "Yeah, mate! France would be alwight if it weren't for the bleedin' frogs, wouldn't it, mate!" Maybe these are the other side of ex-pats who then gravitate to Spain, or just go there in the first place.

To Dave, Good point, Dave, we should have a similar law here that would be good for everybody. We would at least know where we stand. But then, maybe some of these other buggers would come back and ruin that too.

regards
Willie


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## thefman (May 1, 2005)

i think you will find that spain is one of the largest "freeloaders" in the eu and i go down to get some of what my taxes have allready paid for! 8O


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

Quit right thefman...........and I love every last euro spent........and it's sunny :wink:


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## thefman (May 1, 2005)

rock on dude :lol:


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## Detourer (May 9, 2005)

This will really p### you off thefman............and it is true!.

Just going out to a huge banquet.......[paid for by EU]

Given by the Mayor [Got very rich over the last two years [EU]....]

Reason? Opening of By-pass [paid for by EU]

Coaches laid on [Paid for by EU]

All food and drink for over 700 FREE [paid for by EU]

My daugter is getting 1000 euro to sing solo for just one hour tonight [paid for by EU].

Then she goes on with band and gets ........ Phew....[paid for by EU]

..........Must rush...limo has just pulled up [paid for by EU]


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## thefman (May 1, 2005)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 8O


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## Malc (May 9, 2005)

Are you any relation to the Kinnocks, Detourer? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Malc


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

If not their relations, he's been taking lessons from them, for sure.

Dave


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## jams101 (Dec 22, 2006)

artona said:


> I reckon a group of us should get together and buy a piece of land
> 
> stew


what you mean like the gypsies do?

I think you kinda miss the guys point, some motorhomes don't give a ****. I often see tea bags left at beauty spot where a motorhome has been parked. Yeah they breakdown but after how long. We all just have to be more responsible, we have no right to demand free facility but we have a responsibility to locals and the visitors that come after us to cause as little impact as possible.


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## artona (Jan 19, 2006)

Hi Jams

sorry if my posting gave you the wrong impression. I understand Ray's point totally and we always leave our pitch immaculate.  

stew


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## JustRadio (May 21, 2005)

Forgive me for not having read all the posts here, but I like the idea of wild camping because, (A) I dislike being parked 12 feet from someone else "getting away from it", and (B) because I want to park by the sea or some other scenic spot, where some local council would prefer I did not, but not because I object to paying.

So for those on the Costas doing it free and still being cheek by jowl with the neighbours and leaving their rubbish about, well one can only condemn, just as one would the travelers here.

Somehow that still seems different to me to finding a quiet spot and pulling off for the night, but perhaps it isn't.


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## 2kias (Sep 18, 2006)

Had thought of going to Spain this year but after having read this topic and met a few people who have been, I think I will not bother. Sounds like it is a mini Britain down there. France and Germany here we come!


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## artona (Jan 19, 2006)

Hi 2Kias

I would not let it put you off Spain. We have visited Spain loads of times, albeit not in the motorhome. Spain is a massive country and whilst the Costas (coast lines) do get very busy if you head in country you will be amazed. We have always hired a car and spent long lazy days exploring. The cost of eating drops drastically as soon as you head in land and the views are superb. 

Spain has massive areas dedicated to national parks where the landscape becomes very wild. The smells from some of the plant life are far more pleasant than any perfume you might come across.

We are sooo looking forward to getting there in the motorhome.

stew


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## drcotts (Feb 23, 2006)

Whilst the majority of motorcaravanners are decent people who wouldn't, dream of living in such a manner, i,m not totally surprised at what is said here. I have been on plently of sites over the years where the occupant of a camper is obviously living in a couldn'tt give a "s.. about anyone - i,m on my holiday" kind of way.

It may be a bad thing for everyone who just want to park up quietly in some idyllic spot overlooking the sea as the council will stop it. No wonder England is so unfriendly to motorhomes.


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## 101516 (Oct 23, 2006)

*given up*

We bought a motorhome late last year and thought we'd like to travel through Europe for a while, then do the UK and then back to Europe etc. We planned to be motorhoming for at least a year, maybe more.

We set off on 1 February and travelled 6500 miles - twice across France and the whole length of the Iberian coast.

We lasted 2 months, have come back disillusioned and the van is now for sale.

The best part of the trip was our last week which we spent doing WW2 stuff in Normandy and WW1 stuff in the Somme area - highly recommended.

The southern coast of Spain, where we spent most of the time, is just too horrific for words. So many new apartment blocks and housing complexes, the skyline dotted with cranes and even worse than that, the miles and miles and miles of plastic flapping in the breeze, obscuring the beautiful mountains - covering tomatoes, I think.

But even worse than that was the whole motorhoming/camping thing. The wildcampers that invaded the beautiful beaches made us really embarrassed to be in a motorhome - to be associated in any way with their behaviour. We just couldn't believe how many folk would spend tens of thousands of pounds on a van and then not be willing to pay for a camp site. I agree that many sites are over-priced and downright awful (another reason we won't be doing this again) but it's still no excuse to park illegally and create such an eyesore and extra pollution and quite frankly disrespect the country they are visiting. How would they like it if 50 huge motorhomes (with associated awning, garden furniture etc) parked in front of their houses?

We really liked the idea of being self-sufficient so that we could just park up anywhere, preferably in remote places and take care of all our own needs. In practise this is almost impossible for so many reasons - mainly, there are just too many people trying to do the same thing!!

I could go on and on but don't have the time.

So, we have a lovely Rapido for sale and loads of books: 4 Caravan Club books listing campsites in UK and Europe, Camperstop Book, ASCI Card valid for another 9 months or so, and the French Aires book (which was really hard to find!!) as well as the latest Spain/Portugal Road Atlas and a full set of light bulbs for the Rapido.

Please email me on [email protected] if you're interested in buying any of these items.


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