# Folding bikes versus rigid bikes.



## tonyt (May 25, 2005)

What's the general consensus of you seasoned nomads?

For a couple of occasional cyclists who just want to explore the few miles surrounding that nights pitch - what's the pros and conns of the 2 bike options?
Is it worth the cost and aggro of a pair of rear mounted rigid framed bikes which would obviously provide a "better" ride or are the modern folding bikes a better option and adequate for the job?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Tony,

If internal storage is OK, then I would certainly recommend giving a quality folder a test ride.

I'll be getting a couple of these in the New Year:
http://www.bromptonbicycle.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=bikerange.ttype
http://www.bromptonbicycle.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=bikerange.bikerange
http://www.foldingbikes.co.uk/brompton.htm

Dave


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi all

Rigid are better bikes, but unless internal storage is available security can be a problem when they are rear mounted.

Dave as reccomended very good folders there Brompton are a good make, if internal storage is your choice but there is not enough for full size rigid good quality folders can be a very nice ride.

Top of the tree for folders is Moulton, these are considered by some to be the ultimate bike rigid or otherwise.

George


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## Pemburys (May 1, 2005)

Hi Tony

As the owner of 3 bike shops I feel that I can offer advice that will help you. The modern folding bikes fall into 2 main categorys.

1. Commuting
2. Leisure

The commuting folder has to be light and compact. This means having smaller frames and smaller wheels. The Brompton and the Moulton fall into this category. Whilst they are excellent for commuting they do not give you the best ride, and are not ideal for longer rides.

The Leisure folders fall into 2 camps; 16" wheel and 20" wheel. In my opinion if you want to enjoy a comfortable ride then the 20" wheel folder will be best for you. These are available from a number of manufacturers, Dawes and Land Rover spring to mind. They both have aluminium frames and 6 gears. 

As an example, the cost for a Brompton folder starts at about £375 and the Dawes is about £340. We stock 16" and 20" folders and I always recommend 20" to non commuters. At the end of the day you should try both and see for yourself.

I hope this has been of help to you.

Paul


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Paul

I have to disagree re the Moulton, it is not a commuter (although they can be used for that), also the *Moulton is NOT a folding bike* its a seperator, but a Moulton is a comfortable Fast ride. Even good on rough ground (unlike any other racing bike)

Quote form the Questions section

"How well does it perform?

An AM bicycle holds the world speed record for bicycles of conventional riding position at 51mph, fully faired.
The AM bicycle has successfully completed the Race Across America (RAAM) - finishing the course of 3117 miles in 
10 days 15 hours and 1 minute.
Owners of AM bicycles use them successfully for commuting, touring the world and for racing. The APB bicycles are 
ideal for commuting, touring and use off-road."

The Moulton Bikes are far superior to either of the bikes you mention, for comfort speed and distance riding and of course they are far more expensive.

Here are some Magazine review's of a Moulton

"even after many miles, and will be especially good for tourists, audax riders and triathletes."

the above quote is from the cycling Plus review

http://www.alexmoulton.co.uk/frames.asp?id=reviews

As bikes go the Moulton are in the Champions league, Dawes and Land Rover are Sunday league teams. (transfer fee's on same levels too  )

George

PS Embarrasingly I also call it a folder in my first post, the Moulton is different, it splits down and is easy to put in boot of car rather than folding.


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## Pemburys (May 1, 2005)

Sorry George, didn't realise you were a Moulton enthusiast. I have given my opinion based on what the average person asks for. The Moulton is indeed a great bike but beyond a lot of peoples pockets. 

This is the problem with Forums, you always upset someone.

Paul


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Pembury

I always wished I could afford one.

Apologies for my first reply (to you, second post in this thread), I am going back to edit, its far to abrubt and rude.

George


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Tony

Because we have a rear door van I had to buy folders to use when away in the van which had to fold small for easy lifting into the Luton. Like you we enjoy a casual cycle ride of 10 to 20 miles.
We picked 2 Dahon folders - http://www.dahon.co.uk/boardwalkd6.htm - which cost £260 each.
Although I would still prefer to use a normal tourer cycle, I have found these come a close second. They fold in a few seconds, 6 gears and give a reasonably effortless ride. Downside - short handlebars which feel different at first and the small wheels give a more bumpy ride especially on off road tracks.


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## 88741 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Paul
Always good to have another poster with a new area of expertise, amazing what a varied crowd we are, I was very intersted in your post as I have toyed with buying such a bike. Thank you for your thoughts :wink: 
Helen

PS Please check your PM's


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## bigfoot (May 16, 2005)

What about the Galaxe? It is built by a Danish bike builder called Neils Keld Madsen. It is based on the BSA used by the British Troops during the Boer War, in WW2 they were carried in gliders, dropped in bundles or strapped to the paratroopers back, as well as a chute,a lot of these were dumped in Europe. It was a heavy thick-tubed job,designed as a throwaway item. Its sole function was to speed soldiers away from the vulnerability of the drop zone to the bridgehead to form up. Once there the bike was discarded. The most famous use for these bikes was at Arnhem, were they took troops too far too quickly for their own good.
A bike was found, restored and now a new version is based on the elliptical frame design. It still folds in half with the two fullsize wheels together. The ability to fold does not affect the bikes performance. Ironically the first modern versions were built by the Germans.
The University of Odense conducted a study whose results indicated that there is no difference between the rigidity of the Galaxe and a good quality diamond frame.
A british regular size folder is called the WORKSONG.
An American manufacturer Called Bike Friday produce a folder that comes with its own Case which converts to a trailer, the same firm also produce a folding tandem ,called Bike Two's Day,in two cases.Some friends of mine bought theirs in the States and brought them back as regular luggage. The Folding Society caters for owners of all types of folding bicycles.


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## bigfoot (May 16, 2005)

Sorry forgot. The Folding Society can be accessed via the web site
www.foldsoc.co.uk
email [email protected]
Sorry


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

We don't do a lot of cycling but a bike is useful. On our previous van we were able to carry a couple of folding shopper type bikes on the back (not folded) which were adequate for the few miles we did.

On this van we can't carry a rack on the back so have opted for a couple of Pashley folders.
http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/contemporary/micro/splash.html

They are not as good as the shoppers, mainly because of the smaller wheels and the effect it has on steering but they do have the advantage that they can be folded and bagged.
They can be stowed above the cab (with a little difficulty) when not likely to be used on voyage and in the dinette area at other times.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Autostratus

Its not the small wheels that are affecting the steering, its the Straight slalom style short handlebars on the micro and the forward cranked stem which puts the pivot point way behind your hands, Straight short handle bars allways cause twitchy handling, change these for some bars with a little curve in (see below) and the handling will Transformed.


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Reply to TonyT

Hi Tony

We set out with the same intentions: to be occasional cyclists.

If you read the thread at :
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/postt3618.html
you will see that we are more than occasional cyclists now.

We use full size bikes on a bike rack, mainly because we feel safer and prefer to be on full size bikes and with them on the bike rack I can be on my bike and down the road for a newspaper in less than a minute! but here are my other thoughts on your bike question:

I had a folding bike long before we had the van and I carry it in the boot of the car, I use it when visiting Oxford and other "car free" (car park free) towns, I can park on the outskirts and ride in. Here are the issues that I have with folding bikes: when you return to your vehicle it can be a really messy job folding it up if the roads are wet. This gets worse if you ride on the traffic free cycle routes that are springing up all over the country in towns and rural areas, they do quite often have a crushed gravel surface which can make the bike very mucky and the small wheels are not very good on this surface. In the van you would need storage bags to keep them in. I see that you are thinking of an AS Ravenna is there "out of the way" storage space inside a Ravenna for two folding bikes, if not I think you may soon tire of shifting them around inside the van. Even inside the storage bags they will be unwieldily pieces of kit and may damage the van interior in the coming and going and at some time you want to leave them outside the van to save putting them inside, then just as with a rack, security will then become a problem.

But there are problems too with the full size bikes on a bike rack:

Our rack is fitted very high up on the back of the van and as such it is impossible for my 5ft nothing wife, to get her own bike down, so if you are both on short side, you will need a lower rack. Our high rack does have one big advantage: when travelling in wet weather the bikes are above most of the crud that is flying around and they stay quite free of thrown up dirt. Folks with the low fitted racks, sometimes ball hitch mounted, usually have a cover for the bikes. 
Security: the bikes are on show on the bike rack and I suppose if someone wants to steal them it will be easier for them than if they were out of sight inside the van. We do have a secure Cable lock but if a pro thief wants your bike he probably has some bolt croppers to deal with the lock.

Which ever bike you choose I am sure you will enjoy the freedom they give when used with the motorhome, I have lost count of the times we say "we would not have seen this unless we were on our bikes!"

Mike


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Couple of things

Small wheels are ok on gravel, maybe not on poor quality shoppers, I have traveled on bike tracks and lanes up and down the country and have yet to find a proper cycle track that is on crushed gravel, do you mean cinder tracks? I am not a great fan of cycle track's so wouldnt be caught defending them generally, especially were they become compulsory, I even use them now because the wife doesnt like riding on roads (will do it but avoids if poss)

I have also done many 100 mile Plus day trips, cyclist since I was a kid back when me and my brother made them up from dumped parts. Earliest camping trips were a few lads on bikes cycling to Youth hostel camp sites under canvas!

Have ridden alsorts from Choppers (my dream bike when young), to shoppers and three speeds and no speeds (yep even fixed wheel) to folders. 

I have also done triathlons and tours, been a cyclist on and off for over 30 years, so I do know a bit about bikes.

Nowadays its a gentle cruise with the family, beware the sore bum, this can be a real pain first few times you cycle, but it soon wears off never to return. My wife is one of the few people never to have suffered beginers bum.

When you start take it easy, many people try to do 20-30 miles on first trip get beginners bum and mascle pain then relegate the bike to the back of the shed.

read Mikes Camel post and see what your missing, a cycle doesnt half had to the motorhome experience.

I dont jnow of any decent bike below £200, But I do know of Plenty of BAD but still expensive bikes though.

Pop a link up to anything you are considering buying you are sure to get a little advice on "hit or miss"

George


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## tonyt (May 25, 2005)

Thanks people - lots of ideas to mull over.


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## 90353 (May 1, 2005)

As a cyclist I occasionally get asked by people what they should look for in a bike.

When offered a choice between several bicycles - always pick the lightest one. If the thing's heavy to pick up in the shop, then it'll be harder work to cycle on.

Decide what you really need. 

compact folders are always a compromise between comfort, riding ability, and foldability - some of the best folding cycles are the worst bikes to ride. Some of the cheapest will wieigh neally as much as the 'van!

Some of the best deals can be mountain bikes, but please don't buy cheap full suspension, as all the ones I've got my hands on over the years seem to be built from recycled oil rigs.

A hybrid, or mountain bike with narrower tyres while not folding would give outstanding performance, and probably at a price hard to beat.

Echoing what George said about Moulton's - The last bike I bought was a moulton, and I thought long and hard before buying the lighter non-seperable version. fantastic bike though - great on tarmac, sustrans bike routes etc. The small wheels get bogged down occasionally in sand and mud.

It is quite simply the best bike I've owned in the last 20 years. I've got a fully fledged tradional tourer, mountain bike, racing bike, and while they are all really great in their own niche the moulton will run them a close second. Was £800 though - although there is one available for £600.

regards

Gary


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## 91929 (May 1, 2005)

*fixed or folding bikes*

Hi George didnt know you were a wheeler

Like you I started at a young age & ridden all sorts of bikes from fixed wheel one brake (that could be removed to ride on the track) firms carrier bikes Tricycles & 10 speed racers

Have riden across the yorks moors, peak district, off road in tha lakes
& raced from 440yds up to 12 hr & multi stage events
We still prefer our old racing bikes (with heavieer wheels & tyres) 
I have an Omnistore twin rack on out van rear doors OK we cant open the doors with them on (we used to carry them on the roof

Oh & who says the racing type are usless off road They have an anual 3 peaks race round Ingleton / Horton in Ribblesdale They use racing bikes One reason is that they are easier to carry when you have to than the so called Mountain Bikes


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Gazza, Pete

Other than Triathlon, I never raced competatively (well group of lads and girls ) we have the odd sprint and fun, If you ride long enough you soon find whats comfortable and what works.

The really hard thing is finding a decent bike shop, Graham Bufton RIP ran a good one, it really gutted him having to sell the mass produced rubbish, people would come in and he would try to sell them the right bike for what they wanted to do and a lot of the time they would still leave the shop wth a cheap nasty mountain bike, he had to stock them as cyclists who knew a good bike are few and far between.

When two bike look the same the cheaper one will often get sold rather than the much better product, its not the fault of the shops. The pity is that the crap bike soon becomes more grief than its worth, the rider is uncomfortable, nothing works smoothly another cyclist lost , whoi now thinks cyclings uncomfiortable and hard work.

The Hybrid/touring type bike is probably the best compromise for the average rider to buy a good one find a real good bike shop.

For comfort and lasting product you should be looking at at least £400 

I guarantee you'll not be disapointed in a Moulton, because there is not a bad bike in the line up, for other makes they often do good bikes and a cheapo range.

Put whatever you fancy up here and have it rated by people who know.

PS as I say if its a Moulton its a good bike period, its the other ones.

Geo


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## bigfoot (May 16, 2005)

Tony T,
If you can find a copy of December's Camping Club mag there is a review of folders.
And in this month's (January) edition there is a giveaway competion to win one of the models featured.
The best bike is a free one! use it orsell it on E-bay


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## 89564 (May 28, 2005)

I used to cycle (25/30 miles on a sunday afternoon level) but when Bite?Me? came to stay it really put an end to that for a while.After i had his health and nerves sorted out i purchased a second hand Burley kiddies( am i allowed to use that word?Is it demeaning to the next generation?)bike trailer for him and we used to travel miles.Me in the rain the navigator behind in his control pod.It never did go away in a motorhome.
My legs got weaker and it was too much hassel.I now just plod beside him wherever he wants to go. 

I had a Dawes Hybrid but your chat aboutMoultons has reignited my interest.I had a very early one which was lost to a thieving foreign seaman.Probably still in use in sub Sahara Africa. 

Can an AutoSleeper owner tell me why having designed a monocoque body customers then pierce the back to fit a bike rack and so chance letting in the rain?........Oh but i think it might.

Ive eaten me chrismas puddin already wots next.


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Moondog said:


> Can an AutoSleeper owner tell me why having designed a monocoque body customers then pierce the back to fit a bike rack and so chance letting in the rain?........Oh but i think it might.
> 
> Ive eaten me chrismas puddin already wots next.


Hi Moondog

We could not get any rubber suckers that were strong enough :lol: So we had ours screwed onto the back, what you may not realise is that Autosleepers kindly mould, in to the Monocoque, fixing pads on the inside of the body shell during the manufacture of the monocoque especially for fixing a bike rack. South Hereford Motorhome centre fitted mine before delivery and it seems they have used lots of Sikaflex under the mounting brackets so we should be OK.

But anyone who tells you that a Monocoque does not have any rain ingress problems because its a "monocoque" is clearly having misplaced confidence, rainwater is a bit like a mouse it can get through the smallest of cracks and it does.......we have had leaks around a window and a roof light...easy to fix but a bit alarming when one thinks that one has bought a leakproof motorhome.

Happy Christmas to you and the woofer.

Mike

P.S. If you have eaten the Christmas Pudding already start on the nuts, dates and tangerines.


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## BadlyOverdrawnBoy (May 1, 2005)

If you see some s/h Bickertons around, give them a try. We have had two since 1987, and although their handling and ride is not brilliant, they are really light and compact. We can fit the pair easily in our Topaz T4 conversion. Because of their low weight we have taken them on planes several times, and once did a tour of Cape Breton, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island in Canada on them, doing about 30-40 miles a day.
You can pick them up for about £50 each if you're lucky.


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

*Not folding but will fold*

Hi all,

have you noticed that some off road bikes, the kind with the rear suspension could if you remove the front wheel and put out the pin on the rear suspension could then fold the back wheel into the front forks?

Not exactly a folding bike but possibly a security device used to store the bike when needed.

Doug.


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## 91929 (May 1, 2005)

*What bike fixed or folding*

Hi George Yes the Moultons have been going for years - well since about the mid 50's They used to be good bikes then & a few national records set on them

Ours are from the 1960's Mine was designed & built for long distance events - Hence built for comfort & speed Its heavier than the present day racers But if you look at the riding position of the long distance bikes now it is still the same

Ive fitted som mudguards I've got passd the stage when I didnt mind getting my bum wet

the bike still weighs LESS than the present day 'mountain bike' So if you go on serious off road trips its easier & lighter to carry. - the cross bar & down tube fit great over the shoulder with the rear wheel behind you - Thats for the serious off roader

Our rack is fitted high up above the lights etc

& the Omnistor has fixed bars to hold the frame to the rack But I still use two locking wires round the frames & though the WHEELS & rack
I've seen wheels (racing) taken out of bikes with the frames locked to fixtures, ie.railings The leave the frame etc but make off with the wheels


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## 90353 (May 1, 2005)

Great - more fans of the original moultons! A bicycle which was engineered from the ground up rather than a series of historical accidents!

I've got a couple of originals as well as a modern dualdrive24 in the shed. Briilliant to ride, and always used to amaze everybody else in the clubs at the speed, agility, and allround performance of them. wonderfully comfortable to ride as well.

Gearing on the orginals is usually a bit on the high side, as they usually only have 3 or 4 hub gears, but on the plus side they are easy to adjust and maintain.

Original moultons are usually faiirly cheap to buy, and worth picking up if you don't mind walking up the odd steep hill. If you ever do buy one - check that the rear suspension does work, and is not frozen - the first one I bought was like that, and it trashed the frame.

The moulton also has an excellent owners club with lots of support and advice - google for moulton bicycle club on the net www.moultoneers.net, they have pages and pages of interesting information, and loads of servicing advice for the diy able.

soory for boring anybody - I tend to get a bit passionate about moultons!

gary


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi PamPete, all

Its holds current records too fastest faired bike in normal (FCC) riding position. Its also very highley regarded for comfort on big rides. I think the first F frame Moultons were bought out in 1962 (same year as I was born) so you may have one of the earliest models, there is a register of originals run by Graham **** from Derby, will find details later for you. 

In the eartly 70's Raleigh took over and tried to do cheapo versions with predictable results, I have ridden the Raleigh version, very good for shopping bike, not a patch on the Moulton it copies.

Large wheels where for comfort and speed, thats why with solid rubber tyres the Penny farthing ruled the roost, then came Dunlop and is inner tubed tyre, then the Starling Safety bike (two normal sized wheels made it far safer and easier to ride !! (pretty much same fame shape still seen in tour de France today!) Minor advances in gearing and weight see us were we are today. But Smaller rotating mass is best for acceleration (think lightened flywheels) ergo smaller lighter wheels are best, but with small wheels comes problems of comfort and also quality, this is usually overcome by using wider tyres and lower pressure (which then makes the ride sluggish and slow), the beauty of the Moulton is that the suspension takes care of the comfort, the tyres are narrow and high pressure and its one of the few (only?) small QUALITY wheels

Frame weight isnt eveything its the rotating mass that effects effort of riding the most, this I learned ages ago, like this, I had a Raleigh bike Reynolds 501 frame, but I managed to aquire some wheels from a top class bike, these absolutely transformed the ride of the Raleigh these made far more difference than the jump from 501 to 571 frame.

The most important thing with a frame is stiffness, ie every degree of deflection costs energy bending the frame rather than propelling one forward, whats the stiffest stucture? small triangulated frames.

So the ideal bike has 

1. Small Quality wheels, high pressure tyres
2. Stiff and strong triangulated frame
3. Quality suspension (and Moulton certainly knows is onions regarding suspension its questionable whethor the mini would have been designed without the benefit of Moultons hydrolastic suspension)

The above "potted" bike history is from memory, sorry if the dates are not absolutely spot on or names spelled absolutely correctly.

BTW Bickerton is OK, but you would swap for a Moulton if you tried one !

If I had'nt seen such riches, I could live with being poor

George


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Gazza

Bugger was trying to remember the "moultaneers", the blokes names there ! (Graham Walker) I was racking my brains trying to recall it

"A register of all known surviving Moultons, chronologically listed with owner, model and area details, is available from Graeme Walker, 24 Limes Avenue, Alfreton, Derby DE55 7DY. Please notify Graeme if you have an original Moulton which has not yet been placed on the register"


Re the Historical Accidents thats a little unfair, if you follow my potted history thru you will see the trend was there, Alex just progressed it and amazingly its still not been generally accepted.

We need our own section !! Neill can we have a Moulton bike forum ??

I think I can feel a new bike coming on, I packed up smoking a few months ago, must have saved enough by now !

George


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

As bike passion is riding high, I'll share my own dream. That is not to save enough to buy a Moulton, but one of these instead:









You see, where George says:


> It holds current records to fastest faired bike in normal (FCC) riding position.


I don't see why my speed and pleasure should be constrained by the defensive decisons in the 30s of the conservative competitive biking establishment, which unfortunately held back the diversity of bike design 

Not very motorhome friendly, though :-(

Anyway, now that the sun has had a chance to get at most of the frosted roads, we're off for a spin. Unfortunately only in a slightly refined sit-up-and-beg position ......

Dave


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Dave

Yes they are fast, they are comfortable in short bursts, unfortunately they fail in a couple of major area's. 

1. as a useable form of transport, parking, putting away etc arrive at destination you cant park against shop wall, parked in road is asking for trouble

2. the sweat you generate down your back stays there and rubs against the seat back

3. Great on Tarmac roads, useless on cycle tracks.

4. dont actually save anything wind resistance wise, i have seen a picture of a racing cyclist in full tuck side by side with one of these and the bcyclist is only fractionally higher, but the cyclist as lowered is wind resistance because the recumbent rider as presenting is full body to the wind like a sail, the ordinary cyclist as dramatically lowered is profile

ie recumbant riders body is like so >> \ and the cyclist is like >> --

You could not complete say the Ride across America, because it would hospitalise you. See 2 above

Space a normal bike is easy to store, one of these ??

Dont get me wrong being a totalbike feind I would love one of these too, its just totally impractical and the benefits for touring just aint there at all.

George


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## 90353 (May 1, 2005)

Speedies are the coolest pedal powered thing on the planer - I've ridden various loaned recumbents, and the speedy which I tried had me speechless -very fast, and the joystick meant that it felt like nothing else on earth - if I had the money I'd have one in a shot.

by historical accident George - what I meant was that conventional bikes have evolved over decades, whereas the moulton was a logical complete reengineering of the bicycle from the tyres up. One example is that on the original Moulton, the small tube in front of the seat tube is designed to be the best place to lift and carry the bicycle. the 16" wheels were selected as the best for acceleration, strength, and low weight.

Conventional bicycle desgin on the other hand,has been frozen since the '30s with only better materials, and component design.

gary


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Gazza

Is this a moulton or Raleigh?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

George,

I would be the first to admit that if you want a single bike solution to everything, that was not it.

But that is not the reason I want one 

Bikes are like motorhomes; it is impossible to find one that does everything well. But they are both a great source of discussion.

Gary - yes - bike design generally frozen since the old biking fogies of the 30s didn't like these radical whippersnapper recumbents winning the trophies 

Dave


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## 90353 (May 1, 2005)

George
-
It is a moulton - series 2 by the look of the rear forks squinting at the monitor, but moultons were built by Ralieigh from '67 when they bought the company.

I assume by Moulton you meant a moulton design as opposed to the Raleigh (and others) imitators which had no suspension, but balloon tyres.

Original, or F-series moultons as they are known (cos the frame looks like a lazy F) have 3 main versions

Series One - with graceful curved rear forks which had a tendancy to crack. 1962-1964

Series Two - with redesigned rear forks which are straight, and built like the forh rail bridge . these were built by Moulton (subcontacted to BMC) from '64 to 67' then by Raleigh from '67 to 70.

Series Three - Complete redesign with a swinging rear triangle instead of a rear fork (similar to the AM and APB) Built by Raliegh from '70 to '74.

Alex Moulton was retained as a consultant to Raleigh after selling to them in '67. He later started manufacture again as "Alex Moulton" after Raleigh completly killed off the Moulton in the mid 70's.

Is it your's? or just a photo? 

Gary


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Dave

No offence intended, many none or new cyclists see these and think the dogs danglies reality far from it. and its way off the mark for a motohome bike. 

If I was rich one of these (speedy) would be in my stable of bikes, how many people can justify another garage for a bike though, no matter how cool?, but the most ridden bike would be a Moulton.

George


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## Raine (May 10, 2005)

8) :lol: A couple of points. I used to think people with mountain bikes were cheating, till i tried one. Had a folding bike, and was not impressed with its strength. Also had a mountain bike, needed a tractor seat to start with,  but like someone said you soon get used to it, tho i never did get used to the racing saddles, to much like sitting on a thong! :roll: :wink:


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Raine

a Mountian bike for the road is not the way to go, someone mentioned the hybrid above and this gives all the good bits that non-cyclists like with a decent frame and wheels, the tyres on mountain bikes waste far too much energy on the road. (most mountain bikes sub £1000 are junk) In general outside of a Moulton any bike with suspension used for the road is a serious no no, for tracks and trails maybe at a push front suspension only again £400 min (decent suspension costs more then most people ever spend on a bike, and is only useful to very very few people (serious cyclists only and they would not be looking here for advice))

The hybrid is a touring frame and geometry, slightly wider than racing tyres but High pressure and a very good spread of gears. the only prolem is go into the average bicycle shop they will sell you a heap, bear in mind I live in Shropshire, the nearest good bike shop (that I know of is in Derby ! 57.8 miles from my door)

Halfords does employ some experts some of those spotty kids really know bikes, but this can be a two edged sword, if they are BMX specialists they will know BMX inside out, what you would need is a road race specialist he/she would fit a proper bike to you.

The only definates you (we) could give here tho are, go to Moulton, they will kit you out with a quality bicycle, that you will still be enjoying it in 20-30 years anything else is going to be a gamble.

What cycling newbies need is a cycling buddy, someone who could go with the newbie into a store with you and explain why the £70 to £400 (and sometimes more !) bike is not what you want and why the bike costing £350- £1000 is far better. BTW dont go to Halfords with the IDEA that expensive is good, unless you are extremely lucky it will only be an expensive mistake !


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## 90353 (May 1, 2005)

While I agree with George that cheap mountain bikes are useless - I disagree that you cannot get a decent one for less than £1000.

PIck one which is fairlly light, has at least mid range shimano as oppposed to no name compnants, and has fittings for attaching racks and mudguards without needing clips. Also try to find one which has narrower rims which will allow a greater range of tyre to be fitted and not just 2.5" tractor tyres. I know lots of experienced cyclists who have started using mountian bikes as the base for serious touring bikes over the last few years.

£300 min should pick one which is very useable.

Moultons are still the best alround bike though, if you can afford to spend that much. Mine rides like a velvet covered girder - it is so smooth, comfortable, and yet rigid.

Gary


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Gazza

Your basically describing an Hybrid, 

By mountain bike I am refering to full suspension jobbies and decent suspension units front and rear for mountain type hammer cost hundreds, throw in good frame, then any half decent groupset and set of wheels, I just tried pricing one up online

Could not get below £1000 for "Proper real" mountain bike, one of these looks like a mountain bike with half decent kit is not what I meant.

George

PS is the moulton in the picture a Mk1 ?


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

BTW 

After your Velvet covered girder advert, I really must have one now.

Off to price up the last bike you'll ever need to buy.

George


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## 90353 (May 1, 2005)

Hi George

You don't need full suspension with 2 to 4 inches of travel on a mountain bike unless you are into serious off roading - it all just adds wieght and complexity which in unnecessary for county lanes and cycle paths such as disused railway lines.

Front suspension does help with comfort. Mountain bikes are normally 26" wheels, where conventionallly hybrids are 700C - nowadays I'd recomend 26" as the tyre availablity and variety is much greater than 700c. 

Moultons have full suspension with only very limited travel perhaps 1/4" to absorb road shocks, and to insulate against the high tyre pressures and extremly rigid wheels and frame.

The Moulton in the picture is a mark 1 orginal 60's moulton. Modern moultons with the execption of one model are all small tubed spaceframes.

gary


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Gary

Missed your earlier reply, no not mine, one I am looking at

What would you say its worth? I have 2 in sight one complete with original manual and tool kit !

Here's the complete MK 1









And now looking at a brand new Moulton too ! The prices still makes me Giddy, which one of the new ones have you got? fully Monty £4,995 or ?

Amazing when cheapest bike is £695 !

George


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## Raine (May 10, 2005)

Wow, so much information, thanks! Still, think i might stick to horses........................ :roll:


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## 90353 (May 1, 2005)

Hi George

Hard to say what the mk1 is worth - going rate fo most 60's moulton's is between £50 and £150.

I've got a dualdrive 24 apb If you have a look on http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/moulton/dual_drive/splash.html

gary


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Hi All,

some one is having a laugh arn,t they, nearly 5000 pounds for a folding bike!!! you can buy a small car for a little more that that or over 70 cheepo off road bikes. even a cheepo every 6 months will leave 2 meter high mountain of bikes on my grave!!

Doug.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Doug

Yes you could buy a small poorly built car, or the peak of bicycle engineering, the bike would be an heirloom long after the car went through the crusher. Compare like for like, the nearest I can think of is say the McLaren F1

Its all a matter of Handcrafted Quality. They do do some exceptional bikes even from £695

The cheapo bikes are false economy, they can be dangerous I have seen several seriously cracked frames, they are uncomfortable, dont work well and dont last.

George


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

*Unconvinced*

Well George, I have read your text very carefully and I am unconvinced as to its accuracy, . I have never seen, or know of anybody who has seen, or seen a aurthentic report of a broken bicycle frame due to poor manufacturing, at least not in the last 20 years. so I can only draw the conclusion that you are over stating your case!

As to the prices you seem to be prepared to pay for your chosen goods I can only conclude that you are very rich with money to waste or there is some other reason why you should recommend paying so much.

I wonder if you could tell us when you last had a broken bicyle frame and what make it was also what do you have now and what did you pay for it.

Doug.

ps racing cars are lucky to last more than one season without major replacements, who wants a bike that need all its moving parts replacing every year.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Doug

I can only conclude you have not been round bikes much, Even a Good quality MBK Racing frame can break, my brothers, the quality here is that it was replaced by MBK without question, even though it was owned by me first for two years then my brother for one year!, Cousins Cheap JB Sports (weird brand told him not to touch it) snapped second ride near triangle to bottom Bracket and the front down tube, JB tried to claim Abuse, they replaced it and the second bike had the triple tree snap, he then got a refund and bought a decent bike.

Friends drop outs snapped off in Belgium, I could go on, but do a quick internet search you will soon see that I am right and you are "mistaken"

I have a Carrera Hybrid from Halfords, cost £375 in sale a few years ago, The model as been devalued since then with Cheaper and cheaper components, its now over priced and under specced.


Racing cars ? what that as to do with the topic not really sure why you equate the parts situ of a racing bike to a car, its not even similar and no-one as even suggested a racing bike as the answer.

As to what I spend my money on, thats your business because ?

George


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

A man who is very happy with a brompton


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