# etiquette



## cabby (May 14, 2005)

I have a cousin who is living with a partner, Now I know they are particular about this subject so how would I address a Christmas card. Last year I sent a card and addressed it to them both using only their christian names we got the same back, rather than the Mr & Mrs as before.We have hardly been in touch for a year or more now and we were close before that,

cabby


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

Mr Smith and Partner! 
You're going g to fry in hell you sinners and spawn of Beelzebub!!
Oh.....and a merry Christmas!


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

Send them 1 each.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

She owns the property, he is the toy boy I think.>>I think we had a difference of opinion when I frowned on his drinking and driving.He got all huffy, well that is his problem.Only doing the card for the boss really.Oh yes and his sister who we get on with very well even though she lives in Canada.

cabby

obvious answer, wait till we get one from them first.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

"To the Happy Couple".
"Heterosexual Civil Partnerships".
"Oi U 2".

The list is endless Cabby.

Ray.


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

I've had this dilemma before so chose to address the envelope Mr xyz and Miss abc using their individual surnames. I suppose you could equally use Ms instead of Miss.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Why send them a card at all? Just because you did last year, why this year?

Send an e-mail card to whichever you choose of the two and then they can;

a) print it if they want,

b) show it and share it to t'other one,

c) ignore it completely....

You only have to send the one to one e-mail address and can then address it by first name (note the PC description there :smile2 and so avoid more awkward labels.....

But in these financially strained times, why bother to send one at all, if you get one, then send one if you wish using the same style of hw they addressed yours - let them take the lead.

But if you have had little contact in the year, why bother? Simply because it is the "done" thing? 

On the absolute point of etiquette, we have a daughter who is a GP and is married to a person who does not have a Doctorate, so it has to be addressed to;

Mr X and Dr Y Smith 

looks odd but apparently is correct......

Dave


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

Our son has the initials NV and his fiance is JW. We address the Xmas card to J & NV

Mind you, all of our family are easy-going and amenable - just like their parents!

Gordon


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Penquin said:


> On the absolute point of etiquette, we have a daughter who is a GP and is married to a person who does not have a Doctorate, so it has to be addressed to;
> 
> Mr X and Dr Y Smith
> 
> ...


In this age of 'Gender equality' surely the better qualified Dr Y Smith should take precedence?:wink2::smile2:


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Apparently not if etiquette is being followed....


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

cabby said:


> I have a cousin who is living with a partner, Now I know they are particular about this subject so how would I address a Christmas card. Last year I sent a card and addressed it to them both using only their christian names we got the same back, rather than the Mr & Mrs as before.We have hardly been in touch for a year or more now and we were close before that,
> 
> cabby


I read this as being awkward because they were the same sex!:serious:


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## ChrisandJohn (Feb 3, 2008)

cabby said:


> I have a cousin who is living with a partner, Now I know they are particular about this subject so how would I address a Christmas card. Last year I sent a card and addressed it to them both using only their christian names we got the same back, rather than the Mr & Mrs as before.We have hardly been in touch for a year or more now and we were close before that,
> 
> cabby


I'm not quite sure what the problem is, Cabby. You say you 'know they are particular about this subject', so what is their particular view or preference? If you know they are 'particular in a general sense but don't know their actual preference why not ask them?

Many of our friends, like ourselves, have different surnames from their partners whether married or not. I either address cards to Jane & James, or J Smith & J Brown, Ms J Smith & Mr J Brown, Jane Smith & James Brown etc. I wouldn't worry about frankly outdated and inherently sexist etiquette rules, just consider how the recipient would prefer to be addressed.

The most outdated and insulting form of address, I find, is when a woman's name is completely omitted, as in 'Mr and Mrs James Brown'.

Chris


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

Just put `To you both at Christmas`:smile2:
Have a good one!


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Address it to "The Occupiers". :wink2: :grin2:

Anyone who is that touchy about terms of address are off our Christmas card list anyway. Being a kind and considerate person I would hate to upset them by getting it wrong - hence they don't get one at all. 

In any case they are only insulted because they want to be, so the problem is theirs, not mine.

Dave :smile2:


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Y​name (note the PC description there :smile2 and so avoid more awkward labels.....

On the absolute point of etiquette, we have a daughter who is a GP and is married to a person who does not have a Doctorate, so it has to be addressed to;

Mr X and Dr Y Smith

looks odd but apparently is correct......

Dave[/QUOTE]

Why?.

Unless it's an official professional letter l

And who is sending an official letter/card to both of them ?

A few maybe

I have never used the letters after my name

Cant imagine anyone addressing me in that way

But if you lot ( smile)

Wish to address me with my full title

Get lost

Sandra


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

simples Sandra RN because if we do it any other way they get uppity.....

in exactly the same way as the OP is having problems, if we don't do it as they want it causes friction and that is simply not worth it.....

But I stand by my view that if you have not heard from someone in a year leave them off until one arrives from them, then send it, that is cost-effective as posting each and every card will now cost you over £1 per card......

We used to send nearly 200 at one point (some via pupil post) but now it is down to about 40 and that is enough, we only receive about 30, so some pruning of the address list may be done over the next week or so....

Dave


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Why would they get uppity Dave

They are yours warts and all

And in my experience more warts than all

So tell them it ain't going to happen

They are exactly who they are 

Regardless of titles

We remember themfar longer before titles

And often they were little ****s 

But they've improved

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yet if he was a consultant while she was a mere doctor it would be Mr and Dr surely?


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

Sandra RN! I didn't know she was a mateloe!


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Nice twist there Alan. We now keep the previous years cards and send to those first and hope we have time for those we miss. Done this for 7 yeas ow and copped well with it,

cabby


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

You've lost me 

Easily done

Sandra


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## greygit (Apr 15, 2007)

We don’t do Christmas cards as we don’t do Christmas.:grin2:


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## Drew (May 30, 2005)

We have four couples on our Christmas card list who are "partners" (I hate this word when referring to couples).

When I/we address the envelopes it is a case of: 

To

John & Jean
36 Whatever Street
Wherever
Jocksland
XY23 3AB

We have never had a complaint from any of them, after all it is they who have caused the problem not us.

When I have had to write to an MP or whoever I always look up the correct way to address them.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I just put the address on the envelope

The personal greetings inside

Sandra


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

I would concur with Drew's suggestion, very little room for criticism and if they DO complain then they are not TRUE friends are they??

To my mind Christmas cards are totally outdated these days. The original purpose was to communicate with people who were some distance away before telephones etc were invented as there was no other means.

These days with phone, email, Skype, webcams etc etc my view is that Christmas cards are a total waste of money. I don't send any BUT I do email greetings to those I want to advising them that I don't send cards but I DO donate what I would have spent on cards to a charity of my choice (usually the Salvation Army because they do so much good work at Christmas and DONT pay fund raisers) and invite them to do the same.

Andy


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## Drew (May 30, 2005)

*The most outdated and insulting form of address, I find, is when a woman's name is completely omitted, as in 'Mr and Mrs James Brown'. 
*

When a couple marry, the bride in most cases, accepts her husbands name. Therefore Mr & Mrs James Brown is perfectly correct. If a husband dies, then it would be correct to address her as Mrs Elizabeth Brown.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Drew said:


> When a couple marry, the bride in most cases, *accepts her husbands name*. Therefore Mr & Mrs James Brown is perfectly correct. If a husband dies, then it would be correct to address her as Mrs Elizabeth Brown.


Quite so!

Even if she doesn't, and they both become the Brown-Windsors (_I'm properly in the soup with such an appalling quip!_







) if the husband dies she would be known as Mrs Elizabeth Brown-Windsor.

What really could be considered insulting is referring to a married woman as Ms. That seems to me to be a title invented by, and reserved for use by those who are living in sin!

I suppose it's an acceptable device when there's doubt about the marital status _(as in a formal or business letter etc..)_ but I do have to wonder about those married women who *insist *on being referred to as Ms. Why did they get married if they are at such pains to conceal the fact??

But then, what do I know. I'm old, and was brought up to observe what have now become old fashioned courtesies. :crying:

Dave


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I'd address it to the house owner on the envelope and include the partners name on the card, or send it to the one you feel closest to and include the partner on the card, I've never written a surname on anyones card so either will suffice and shouldn't offend anyone.

We're not married (Lizs house) and get both of the above, never bothered Liz or I.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

and you think the system in the UK is confusing.....

In France (sunny at the moment) the MARRIED woman continues to be addressed by all OFFICIAL documents as her previous name AS WELL, so if Mademoiselle Soup became Madame Brown-Windsor all oficial documents would say;

Mme Brown-Windsor (Soup) in that format.....

apparently we are not supposed to use Mademoiselle now as it "assumes" something we do not know, so even young females are now being addressed as Madame - which to me is open to another interpretation but that may be just me.....

The birth certificate here is not just a simple thing as in the UK either - it is gradually expanded on and becomes a full potted life history on which French officials take GREAT care to check, so the UK system goes down badly and they cannot imagine how British females cope without having their marriage, children's births and shoe size on their birth certificate - we of course have to have everything translated by an OFFICIAL translator before it is acceptable at a cost of around 80€ per sheet.....

Name = non, date de naissance = DoB etc. a wonderful bureaucratic way of slowing everything dwn by several weeks or months

So the OP is a simple problem ........

my answer like the French - don't send Christmas cards, problem solved....

Dave


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> We're not married (Lizs house) and get both of the above, *never bothered Liz or I*.


Never bothers us either, and I don't know whether we are married or not!!

Welsh wedding with a vicar who didn't read English very well. He lost his place in the book after turning over two pages, so I had to help him carry on without looking a clot. (_Fortunately I can read upside down_.) Never did find out if he missed anything vital! :surprise:

What does worry me is your shoddy use of language. :surprise::wink2::kiss:

It should be "_Liz or *me*_." You wouldn't say "_It doesn't worry *I*_" if Liz were not included . . . that's how I remember whether it should be I or Me.

Having pulled your leg :smile2:, the primary purpose of language is to convey meaning - and if it does that effectively, it's good enough for me.

Dave


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## Drew (May 30, 2005)

*"I'd address it to the house owner on the envelope" *

That would be acceptable to me if it was a business letter, but on a Christmas Card I would be a little annoyed if it wasn't addressed to both us.

Our home is in joint names, although I bought it I had both names put on the deeds, how would you address your Christmas Card?

For convenience I have address labels and print them from my "Contacts" on my computer, easy to change if and when required.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Drew said:


> For convenience I have address labels and print them from my "Contacts" on my computer, easy to change if and when required.


So do I, but for convenience it ain't!!! :surprise:

Every year it takes me at least an hour to remember how I did it last year. A pleasant little interlude that I must get down to very shortly! :frown2:

Dave


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## Drew (May 30, 2005)

I don't know what word processor you use Dave, I use Pages on my Mac but I have kept my old Sony computer with Word 2000 on it. If I can help please let me know.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Drew said:


> I don't know what word processor you use Dave, I use Pages on my Mac but I have kept my old Sony computer with Word 2000 on it. If I can help please let me know.


Thanks for the kind offer Drew.

It is irritating, but entirely my own fault. It's just a matter of remembering a couple of steps in the process, which I have intended to note down every December for the past 7 or 8 years.

Please note the word "_intended_". :crying:

Dave


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## ChrisandJohn (Feb 3, 2008)

Zebedee said:


> Quite so!
> 
> Even if she doesn't, and they both become the Brown-Windsors (_I'm properly in the soup with such an appalling quip!_
> 
> ...


It's about *equality*.

If wanting to be referred to as Ms was all about concealing marital status I have to ask why men don't change their title on marriage?

Chris


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## Drew (May 30, 2005)

ChrisandJohn said:


> It's about *equality*.
> 
> If wanting to be referred to as Ms was all about concealing marital status I have to ask why men don't change their title on marriage?
> 
> Chris


Using Ms. is nothing to do with equality or concealing marital status, it is or should be used when you write to a female and *you don't know her marital status*.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

ChrisandJohn said:


> I have to ask why men don't change their title on marriage?
> 
> Chris


When did you last hear anyone addressed as *Master *Windsor-Brown?

It used to be the correct terms for those that had not achieved their adult status, but IMO it seems to have dropped out of use now......

Maybe I am wrong......

As an aside, when teaching the increase in double-barrelled surnames became more prevalent since the 1970's so we would have young Fortescue Windsor-Brown and probably a young female called Henrietta Cold-Soup and a question I was never sure about was what would happen when/if they got married would it end up as Mr and Mrs Windsor-Brown-Cold-Soup or would that just be the children?

I envisaged names getting longer and longer with each generation....... :grin2:

Dave


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Master, that brings back memories. I'd completely forgotten this but when I was very young any envelope arriving addressed to me as Master invariably contained a postal order for some huge amount of money, often as much as 10 bob. Always from my Grandparents.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Penquin said:


> and you think the system in the UK is confusing.....
> 
> In France (sunny at the moment) the MARRIED woman continues to be addressed by all OFFICIAL documents as her previous name AS WELL, so if Mademoiselle Soup became Madame Brown-Windsor all oficial documents would say;
> 
> ...


Dave

Obviously that document cannot be a 'Birth Certificate' in the British sense, as it appears to be needed to updated at all of the life events you list. So what is it called in French(and translation please)?

Is all this recorded centrally on a computer system, or does one have to present documents when ne moves to a new Mairie. If so, no wonder the French property market is down.

I wonder how many French officials understand the words in a British Passport '...to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or[sic] hindrance'? Of course we knoew 'or' should be 'nor' - you would think the Secretary of State would also know that:wink2:

What is the French translation for 'without let or hindrance' ?

Have you ever tried to use it with the French officials? If so, how high was the shrug of the shoulders?:laugh:

Geoff


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Zebedee said:


> Never bothers us either, and I don't know whether we are married or not!!
> 
> Welsh wedding with a vicar who didn't read English very well. He lost his place in the book after turning over two pages, so I had to help him carry on without looking a clot. (_Fortunately I can read upside down_.) Never did find out if he missed anything vital! :surprise:
> 
> ...


Bleedin Penant.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

???????????


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Bleedin Penant.


Well Dear Sir (or should that be Mr).

Anyone who has studied and written Latin or Greek would well understand about using the correct case with different prepositions. Getting it correct would be normal, but getting it wrong would look as though one were a Pr*t.

Just saying


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

nicholsong said:


> Obviously that document cannot be a 'Birth Certificate' in the British sense, as it appears to be needed to updated at all of the life events you list. So what is it called in French(and translation please)?


, it carries on with you throughout your life.



nicholsong said:


> Is all this recorded centrally on a computer system, or does one have to present documents when ne moves to a new Mairie. If so, no wonder the French property market is down.


don't know I'm afraid as obviously we do not have such things....

The French property market is depressed because of the British wimping out, when in doubt blame the British..... :grin2:



nicholsong said:


> I wonder how many French officials understand the words in a British Passport '...to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or[sic] hindrance'? Of course we knoew 'or' should be 'nor' - you would think the Secretary of State would also know that:wink2:
> 
> What is the French translation for 'without let or hindrance' ?


French translation = bureaucracy.......

Since the UK does *not* follow such a phrase (as we will once again discover when we pass through Portsmouth on Thursday and have to wait at "Passport Control" for more than an hour - on a good day) I do not think such a concept is observed *anywhere in the world (civilised or not)*....



nicholsong said:


> Have you ever tried to use it with the French officials? If so, how high was the shrug of the shoulders?:laugh:


You must be joking, remember Mme Guillotine was invented here and widely used against ANYONE trying to exert undue influence.... :crying:

I am not of course, going to do a Zebedee...... 0

Dave


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## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

raynipper said:


> "To the Happy Couple".
> "Heterosexual Civil Partnerships".
> "Oi U 2".
> 
> ...


Mr A N Other and POSSLQ (Person of Opposite Sex Sharing Living Quarters):surprise:


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## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

Well if anything hastened the death of Christmas card exchange here in RSA it must surely be the de facto demise of the services of the SA Post Office. I have a few die hard friends in UK who send me Christmas cards, but they don't normally arrive till March, if ever. That is due to the delays while waiting to have their contents checked by affirmative shoppers in the depots. Not such a bad thing though, the price of cards is outrageous, not to mention the postage. The outbound ones never get as far as the airport.


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## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

My recently widowed Dutch friend has reverted back to her maiden name as is the tradition there. Unusual I think?


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

nicholsong said:


> Well Dear Sir (or should that be Mr).
> 
> Anyone who has studied and written Latin or Greek would well understand about using the correct case with different prepositions. Getting it correct would be normal, but getting it wrong would look as though one were a Pr*t.
> 
> Just saying


I'm so happy to be a prat

Sandra


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## ChrisandJohn (Feb 3, 2008)

Drew said:


> *Using Ms. is nothing to do with equality *or concealing marital status, it is or should be used when you write to a female and you don't know her marital status.


It is for me, and many other women.

I was familiar with Ms, or rather M/S, being used for any female name when I used to help my Dad address election leaflets to people listed on the electoral register. That was in the 1950s and 1960s. However feminists have adopted Ms as a marital neutral title (I think I just made up that term) since at least the 1970s.

I have used Ms since some time in the 70s but would happily use Mrs again when it is understood to refer to any adult female, as Mme now seems to in France.

Chris


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## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

M/s used to be an abbreviation for Messrs usually in a business context (i.e. Messieurs when used in English -. more than one Mister)

as in Messrs. Dog, Cat and Partners.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Any of that lot in any way helpful Phil???


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## Drew (May 30, 2005)

ChrisandJohn said:


> It is for me, and many other women.
> 
> I was familiar with Ms, or rather M/S, being used for any female name when I used to help my Dad address election leaflets to people listed on the electoral register. That was in the 1950s and 1960s. However feminists have adopted Ms as a marital neutral title (I think I just made up that term) since at least the 1970s.
> 
> ...


You or any other female can use whatever you decide, no-one can stop you, however if when writing a letter to a female and her marital status is unknown, them Ms. is the correct way to address the letter.

M/S is non existent when addressing a female,

Miss = Unmarried female, no matter what age.

Mrs. = Married female.

Ms. = When unsure whither she is married or not. If a female wishes to keep her marital status private the she would sign off with Ms. Jenny Smith or whatever name she uses.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Or simply the first & surname with no title is acceptable, my NHS letters come like that.

So I suppose to answer Phil again, first and last names for the people on the card should be okay too.


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