# “The Holidays are Coming”



## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)




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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Where is the second one Terry?


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

You can never find a pallet when you want one and then a thousand turn up.

Ray.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

erneboy said:


> Where is the second one Terry?


Think it was in Larne last year.

The one up behind us near the garage is well advanced too. Ends up spilling onto the road that needs re tarmaced every year, should charge the bloody builders imho.

Terry


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

dghr272 said:


> Ends up spilling onto the road that needs re tarmaced every year, should charge the bloody builders imho.
> 
> Terry


Same here in East Belfast Terry.

The police are bound to know who the builders are but nothing is ever done apparently.

The site nearest me is so bad that cyclists have to lift their bikes over all the broken glass.

It's so depressing, the same story every year.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I’ve never seen or even heard of anything like that

What’s the significance?, does it get burnt when it’s completed ?

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

aldra said:


> I've never seen or even heard of anything like that
> 
> What's the significance?, does it get burnt when it's completed ?
> 
> Sandra


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleventh_Night


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Thank you earnyboy, a bit like bonfire night celebrations then

I’d really never ever heard of it till now

Another thing learnt in my dotage 

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

aldra said:


> Thank you earnyboy, a bit like bonfire night celebrations then
> 
> I'd really never ever heard of it till now
> 
> ...


Extremely similar, in so far as both involve fire.

Beyond that not so much really.


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

aldra said:


> Thank you earnyboy, a bit like bonfire night celebrations then
> 
> I'd really never ever heard of it till now
> 
> ...


If you can imagine Guy Fawkes living/cowering a couple of streets away possibly:smile2:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm wracking my brains trying to remember when it was that I saw the footage of the armed men in fatigues and balaclavas asking for a penny for the Guy.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

You need to explain more

I really want to understand it’s so new to me 

Nothing like Guy Fawkes 

Of course bonfire night has really forgotten Guy Fawkes 

So tell me more 

Cowering as a kid, well I remember that, it’s what you did in children’s homes as a kid at that time, you cowered , mea culpa and if you didn’t ….. life was difficult 

My life was difficult , I wasn’t in to cowering then or now 77 years later

But I’m really in to understanding new things which come into my life 

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Read the link. It's explained there.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I did, but I needed more 

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

What's missing? Seems fairly comprehensive to me.

In Northern Ireland, the Eleventh Night or 11th Night refers to the night before the Twelfth of July, a yearly Ulster Protestant celebration. On this night, large towering bonfires are lit in many Protestant/loyalist neighbourhoods in Northern Ireland and are often accompanied by street parties[1] and loyalist marching bands. The bonfires are mostly made up of wooden pallets and tyres, with the Irish tricolour being burnt. The bonfires are lit to celebrate (1688) and victory of Protestant king William of Orange over Catholic king James II at the Battle of the Boyne (1690), which began the Protestant Ascendancy in Ireland. The event has been condemned for displays of sectarian or ethnic hatred, anti-social behaviour, and for the damage and pollution caused by the fires. The flag of the Republic of Ireland, Irish nationalist/republican symbols, Catholic symbols, and effigies, are burnt on many bonfires. There have been attempts to make the event more family-friendly and environmentally-friendly. It is also known as "bonfire night", in common with other events in which bonfires are lit.[2][3][4]

Origins
Like The Twelfth, the Eleventh Night bonfires celebrate the Glorious Revolution (1688) and victory of Protestant king William of Orange over Catholic king James II in the Williamite-Jacobite War (1689-1691), which began the Protestant Ascendancy in Ireland. When King William landed at Carrickfergus in 1690, his supporters in Ulster lit bonfires to celebrate. Some of those who did not join in the celebrations were attacked by the Williamites.[5] There is also a belief that the bonfires commemorate the lighting of fires on the hills of counties Antrim and Down to help Williamite ships navigate through Belfast Lough at night.[6] Traditionally, both Catholics and Protestants in Ulster had lit bonfires at Midsummer, May Day (Bealtaine) and Halloween (Samhain), which were non-sectarian.[7] In the 18th century it also became a tradition for Ulster Protestants to light bonfires on 11 July to commemorate the Williamite victory, and for Catholics to light bonfires on 14 August to mark the Feast of the Assumption of Mary,[7] although this latter custom largely died out.

Bonfires in Northern Ireland traditionally mark the night before the Twelfth. However, should the Twelfth fall on a Sunday, as it did in 2015, the public holiday is given in lieu on the following Monday. When this situation arises, some bonfires are lit on the Saturday night.

Criticism

Ballycragy bonfire in Antrim. Irish tricolours have been set atop the bonfire and are intended to be burnt. The Ulster Banner and Union Jack are flying from streetlights in the foreground

A large bonfire in Newtownards on 10 July 2009
Sectarianism and violence

A bonfire decked with Irish tricolours to be burnt
Eleventh Night bonfires have involved sectarian and loyalist paramilitary displays. Symbols of Irish nationalism/republicanism (such as the Irish tricolour), and symbols of Catholicism, are often burnt on the bonfires.[1][6] The tricolours on such bonfires are often daubed with sectarian slogans such as "Kill All Taigs" (KAT) or "Kill All Irish" (KAI).[8][9] Effigies, and posters of Irish nationalist election candidates, are also sometimes burnt, which has been condemned as "inciting hatred".[10] More recently, symbols of immigrant communities, especially the large Polish immigrant community, have been burnt on some bonfires. The Polish Association of Northern Ireland, and others, described this as "racist intimidation".[11]

Loyalist paramilitary groups, such as the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) and Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF), have also used Eleventh Night bonfires to hold "shows of strength", which often involve masked gunmen firing volleys of shots into the air.[1]

Another issue that has been raised is drunkenness and alcohol-fuelled violence amongst those attending.[1]

Environmental harm
Eleventh Night bonfires have raised health and safety concerns, as well as environmental ones.[1][12]

Bonfires are often built to be as large as possible. Some have been built near houses and other buildings, which in a few cases caught fire.[13] Roads are often damaged and, according to the BBC, clean-up and repairs made to roads due to bonfire-related damage can "cost thousands of pounds", with some roads needing to be resurfaced.[1]

A major concern that has risen to greater prominence in recent years is the pollution they cause. In some bonfires, despite bans by bodies such as Belfast City Council, tyres are burnt. Tyres produce many toxic chemical compounds when burnt, and therefore pose a major health issue.[1]

Attempts to address the concerns
There have been attempts to make the bonfires more family-friendly and environmentally-friendly. In Belfast, a Bonfire Initiative has been set up. When joining the initiative, the community groups who organize bonfires agree to a number of conditions. A "bonfire committee" must be formed; the gathering of material for burning may only begin on 1 June; only wood can be burnt; and paramilitary flags and emblems must not be displayed at the bonfire site. In 2010, groups who forbore from burning nationalist flags or symbols were awarded an extra £100 funding.[6]

In 2009, Belfast City Council began promoting "beacons" as an environmentally-friendly alternative. It is a pyramid-shaped metal cage filled with willow wood-chips, and set on a base of sand to protect the ground underneath. The willow trees re-grow within a year of being cut down, making the bonfires more environmentally sustainable. By agreeing to use the beacons, the communities qualify for up to £1,500 of funding from Belfast City Council to hold a street party - as long as they do not fly paramilitary flags or burn tyres. Some loyalist communities in Belfast have begun using the beacons. The Orange Order, whilst recognising the importance of bonfires to Protestant culture, have issued calls for the organisers of bonfires not to burn tyres.[14] However, many others oppose the beacon, claiming that it infringes upon their traditions.[1]


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## Webby1 (Mar 11, 2012)

I can't understand whether Sandra really has no idea what has gone on in Northern Ireland in our lifetime or is just winding you up.

When she first posted that she had no idea what the photos and bonfires were about I resisted having a go.Pointing out the lengths people go to "preserve their culture" and what can be the consequences of unconscious prejudice and bias.

But I resisted.
@erneboy You have very graciously and patiently posted explanations but still no understanding or is it no wish to understand ?

"But I'm really in to understanding new things which come into my life"...........I really like to think that was the case and then we could all get on with building a better world free of the bigotry and bitterness that the bonfires symbolise..................but that openness doesn't seem to apply to BLM.

And there are many comparisons (I couldn't spell parralles) between the processes........one group with the power who want to retain that power...........but don't understand what they are part of................and how they are being played.

It's all so very very sad


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Webby you are so boring, so intolerant, so know it all 

I get it, we all get it 

You will go for me whenever you can

Earnyboy ie a bit specially to you is he?

He struggles to read or understand my posts , but you are there to help him

Webby you are an obnoxious , unpleasant poster , there I’ve said it , 

And those who wish to support you are not far behind

Only me that thinks that ?I don’t think so

You are mean and nasty minded

And attempt to cover it by………..well……maybe……perhaps 

But there is a famous saying that maybe you just have ,,,,,,,,a little,,,,, weii you know what I’m………saying, well maybe I’m saying …. Possibally it’s what I’m saying , how small is it?

I won’t ignore you 

You are not worth the effort 

Sandra


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Is it shameful not to have heard of this, because I haven’t either.


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## Webby1 (Mar 11, 2012)

Ok Jan fair enough................It's never shameful but I am surprised as it is such a part of our "British culture".............well try telling them Loyalists its not.

What on earth do we think has been going on in Northern Ireland for the last 100 years.......what was it all about.......did any of us want to know more or try to understand more.

Did all those people die without us asking why......what's going on over there......................I do think that is shameful

And by the way my bonfire is very big and its on fire.......what do I post now............ a devil and a wink...........what nonsense.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I too had never seen or heard of that particular tradition Jan

Of course I’m aware of Northern Irelands troubled past and present , but not the tradition of building towers or what they symbolised 

That’s what Alan has explained and that’s what I was asking about and I certainly was not in any way attempting to wind anybody up, I simply had never seen such a structure before 

But it seems it’s enough to get Webby back on his soapbox, and I’m assuming he is not a Loyalist and fails to notice that he too is stirring up dissent and division , I guess he would call it righteous indignation 

Of course bonfire night commemorates a historical event,a deep division, it’s origins mostly forgotten now and I doubt many celebrating bonfire night thinks of it as more than a bonfire and fireworks, but I’m guessing some modern day guy fawkes would probably still like to blow up the Houses of Parliament 

I was surprised that having such sinister overtones that attempts are being made to make it more “family friendly” which is why I though of bonfire night, and also that the building of such structures are permitted or even tolerated if they stir up such hatred still

I’m assuming to some they are built “ less we forget “ and as an outsider I am in no position to pass judgement 

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

As an outsider why do you feel that you can't judge hatred, bigotry, oppression and damage to public property and the environment which is ongoing in part of your own country?


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Not until I came to live in east Germany did I think to find out what went on here during the iron curtain days, maybe if I had moved to Ireland ( north or south.) I would have become interest in their past. Some people are interested in history like you and Alan, maybe you read a lot just as he does and may I say I have learnt quite a lot from Alan in the past as well as now.
It is not necessary to ridicule anyone because they have not or are not interested in all historical events. 
This was supposed to be a comical subject I though and didn’t understand what the pallets were all about, I dare say there are a lot more people other than Sandra and I who had no idea what the joke was all about, we just happened to be the only 2 to admit it.

We aren’t all walking encyclopaedias and a good teacher doesn’t scold pupils because they don’t understand that way they would never learn.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

JanHank said:


> Not until I came to live in east Germany did I think to find out what went on here during the iron curtain days, maybe if I had moved to Ireland ( north or south.) I would have become interest in their past. Some people are interested in history like you and Alan, maybe you read a lot just as he does and may I say I have learnt quite a lot from Alan in the past as well as now.
> It is not necessary to ridicule anyone because they have not or are not interested in all historical events.
> This was supposed to be a comical subject I though and didn't understand what the pallets were all about, I dare say there are a lot more people other than Sandra and I who had no idea what the joke was all about, we just happened to be the only 2 to admit it.
> 
> We aren't all walking encyclopaedias and a good teacher doesn't scold pupils because they don't understand that way they would never learn.


NI is part of the UK Jan. It isn't foreign news or history for people living in the UK. It's happening now in their country.

Like you I am very interested in what went on in Germany.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

erneboy said:


> NI is part of the UK Jan. It isn't foreign news or history for people living in the UK. It's happening now in their country.
> 
> Like you I am very interested in what went on in Germany.


Ah yes, well, see, I´m English :laugh: 
Of course when I lived in England I would listen to the news and here or read about what was going on in Ireland and I hope it doesn´t happen again, but whatever it was, is, or will be, there is nothing I can do about it, I lose enough sleep now without worrying about the rest of the world. 
Caring about what goes on doesn't help and unless there is something I can do to make things better I don´t see the point in worrying or quarrelling about it, it certainly doesn´t help trying to make people care, worry or even if they don´t want to, know about it. Bit like religion I suppose.

Maybe I have gate crashed on a private party for 3 again :frown2:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Your comments are welcome Jan. We don't always have to agree. Discussion would be redundant if we did.

I know that some people take the view that there's no point being concerned about things they feel they can't change. Luckily some people are determined to strive to inform and to change things. Where would we be without them?

I can't make people care, but I can make them aware. That's a good start.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

erneboy said:


> Your comments are welcome Jan. We don't always have to agree. *Discussion* would be redundant if we did.
> I know that some people take the view that there's no point being concerned about things they feel they can't change. Luckily some people are determined to strive to *inform *and to change things. Where would we be without them?
> *I can't make people care, but I can make them aware. *That's a good start.


Unfortunately a lot of the subjects are not discussed, to me it looks as if it´s a competition, who can be the most spiteful and insulting.
A discussion for me is to - discuss- not to force ones ideas onto another, surely "lets talk about it" is the same as `discussing´ and what is going on here is neither talking about or discussing in my book.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Discussion revolves around exchanging and examining opinions. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/discussion


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

raynipper said:


> You can never find a pallet when you want one and then a thousand turn up.
> 
> Ray.


I'll try and get you their phone number Ray. :grin2:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1411489643363721226
You might have to take a job lot though. :wink2:

Terry


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

erneboy said:


> Discussion revolves around exchanging and examining opinions. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/discussion


Precisely and that has not been happening on many occasions, there seems to be a great lack of understanding (or trying to understand) on all sides at times.

It´s good to talk, healthy arguments have disagreements, but it often goes beyond that. 
Be nice to each other, or :serious: mund zu or in this case fingers off the letters, it´s not that hard.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

dghr272 said:


> I'll try and you their phone number Ray. :grin2:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1411489643363721226You might have to take a job lot though. :wink2:
> Terry


Oi you, see what you started, even got me going :grin2:

Happy 4th of July.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Whats happy about the 4th of July?
Cloudy and drizzle, got a stonking cold, missing out on a 5* free lunch, more dog poop on my lawns.

Ray.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

raynipper said:


> Whats happy about the 4th of July?
> Cloudy and drizzle, got a stonking cold, missing out on a 5* free lunch, more dog poop on my lawns.
> Ray.


Some people will always find something to moan about.:frown2:


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

erneboy said:


> As an outsider why do you feel that you can't judge hatred, bigotry, oppression and damage to public property and the environment which is ongoing in part of your own country?


Because Alan I don't feel I am able to judge

Like jan I don't feel able to do anything about it , I don't condone the building of structures that represent hatred, bigotry oppression and damage public property and I don't build them

I did wonder why there were efforts to make them more family friendly and if they are representing what you say they do , what aspect of them can be family friendly ?

I imagine there is hatred and bigotry on all sides, and a middle ground as there is for example in Israel which is maybe the nearest I came to experiencing the tension that division brings between Arab and Jews

I don't think I'll be taking an active part in Irish affairs although I would like to visit Ireland in the near future


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

No point worrying about what you can't change apparently Ray.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

aldra said:


> I imagine there is hatred and bigotry on all sides, and a middle ground as there is for example in Israel which is maybe the nearest I came to experiencing the tension that division brings between Arab and Jews


Please tell us how it manifests on the side we haven't discussed.



aldra said:


> I don't think I'll be taking an active part in Irish affairs although I would like to visit Ireland in the near future


Please tell us how you feel able to describe the activities of British people who very insistently and constantly identify as British though and through in part of the UK as "Irish affairs". I find that very interesting.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

erneboy said:


> Please tell us how it manifests on the side we haven't discussed.
> Please tell us how you feel able to describe the activities of British people who very insistently and constantly identify as British though and through in part of the UK as "Irish affairs". I find that very interesting.


I for one don´t understand what you mean Alan.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I am constantly amazed at how many people do not understand that NI is part of the UK and that the Republic of Ireland is not, and is an independent country. I ask them if they have heard of the Easter Rising...or indeed de Valera.

Also I think (and I'm happy to be corrected if wrong) that folks from the Republic are not fans of their country being called southern Ireland nor indeed, Eire.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

JanHank said:


> I for one don´t understand what you mean Alan.


I'm suggesting that the manifestation of hatred which for a great many is what's known as the twelfth, has no contemporary equal on any "other side" Jan. Nor indeed anything which comes close to it.

To me the it looks rather as though the Trumpian suggestion that "there are good people on both sides" has been made in the face of some pretty nasty, one sided behaviour which see see repeated year after year.

It may be that there are some who celebrate the twelfth as nothing more than a proud, uplifting, cultural event with no hint of hatred or threat attached to it. I think they are relatively few, and surely we must wonder how such paragons can feel comfortable in the company of the worst of their fellow celebrants?

Certainly many of those who become involved in the twelfth would claim that all are welcome, but then they would say that wouldn't they?


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

erneboy said:


> I'm suggesting that the manifestation of hatred which for a great many is what's known as the twelfth, has no contemporary equal on any "other side" Jan. Nor indeed anything which comes close to it.
> 
> To me the it looks rather as though the Trumpian suggestion that "there are good people on both sides" has been made in the face of some pretty nasty, one sided behaviour which see see repeated year after year.
> 
> ...


I have read some of it, but please don´t test me on it, far too much for my brain to take in, it´s full up with other stuff. 
I wonder how many people actually know all this anyway and whatever I knew from school I have forgotten now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

JanHank said:


> I have read some of it, but please don´t test me on it, far too much for my brain to take in, it´s full up with other stuff.
> I wonder how many people actually know all this anyway and whatever I knew from school I have forgotten now.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth


The flawed creation of NI just installed a siege mentality on many Unionist mindsets. It gets ramped up by bigoted utterances from the likes of the DUP, but the many violent attacks from the IRA over the years has most certainly been a major factor in hardening attitudes and the separation of what's perceived to be two very different cultures, British and Irish.

Terry


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Better to worry about something you can change

Worrying that in some areas of the world people don’t have clean water does nothing, a donation to water aid can make a difference 

Worried about children starving, same applies 

It’s not a lot but it’s something that I can actually do 

I a very aware thatNorthern Island is part of Britain but as you said yourself , the Irish are Irish when I described them as British 

This is the problem you identify certain things as Irish but if anyone who is not Irish mentions Irish affairs then they are not recognising that the Irish are British 

I imagine that you will tell me I know nothing about Irish affairs , if I say I know nothing of Irish affairs then you accuse me of not recognising that part of Ireland is British 

By the middle ground I refer to those who are not extremists on either side in their beliefs or stance

So is that the case of those who build the towers , burn the flags ? because that’s all I asked about ,not which side is more bigoted , right in their beliefs or wrong in their beliefs 

And knowing little about Irish politics other than assuming that Ireland like England ,Wales and Scotland does in fact have its own political stance I am in no position to pass judgement 

It’s not a competition, as I’ve said I’m British, English, a northerner, of Scottish heritage 

That’s enough for me to be getting on with 

Sandra


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

There is a huge amount of ignorance when it comes to the conundrum that is the north of Ireland. I've seen English who stared at me open mouthed when I told them that the largest and most impressive catheral in Dublin is protestant and the ROI's most prestigious University (Trinty College that holds the book of Kells and was founded in the 16thC) didn't have a single Catholic student for most of the 19th and 20th centuries.


The Irish are usually as equally open mouthed when they hear that the Battle of the Boyne was actually little more than a skirmish by the standards of the time, that James effectively decided that discretion was the better part of valor and bottled it. Probably after seeing that our Dutch King Billy was actually flying the Pope's standard and his campaign had the Pop's full blessing.


I have always found the Irish and even the Scots Irish (the Usltermen) very pleasant and their shared country a bueatiful one, but you would expect that from a fellow Celt wouldn't you


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

That is your first mention of middle ground. Previously you talked about sides.

I haven't said that one "side" is more bigoted than another. At the two extremes you couldn't fit a cigarette paper between them. Nor have I said who is right.

Ireland does have it's own politics, but we were not talking about Ireland or it's politics. This takes place within in the UK. None of the things under discussion happen in Ireland.


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## Webby1 (Mar 11, 2012)

It's interesting that those who have direct experience or knowledge of affairs in NI seem to be the most vocal in support of BLM. Perhaps they have seen bigotry in action and what happens when a dominant group desperately wants to hang on to their power base.

It's often without realising what they are doing..................we want to preserve our cultural traditions...................we don't want to be swamped by those Papist Paddies from Ireland. But given the recent changes in Ireland around abortion and same sex marriage, the hard line Protestants now have more in line with Rome than those they slated as backward Paddies in the past. The underlying attitude is shown that many now want to burn Polish flags as well.

In answer to the question................it is cleverly described as family friendly event to hide the underlying bigotry.I remember going to an Orange 12th festival as a kid in Liverpool and my Dad telling me......don't tell anyone what school you go to

It's like Farage wanting to be seen as the ordinary bloke in the pub and Boris as a bumbling buffoon just trying to do his best for us all in a difficult world.

Things will change, no doubt hastened by Brexit...........I think all "colonial plantations" have eventually had to give way.......................often because the supporting power has no more use for them.

Same with BLM................ "A change is gonna come"


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Many of us saw it for what it was long ago and are sick of it. Unfortunately politicians lag well behind.

But in any case lots of people vote the extremes in for fear that if they don't the other lot might. Pundits say that is changing and the middle may vote for the centre party, Alliance

Let's hope so. It used to be a wasted vote. We will see.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

What are those towers built in England ?

That’s what I asked about , I’d never seen or heard of them until they were shown on this forum 

I suggest you read Webbys reply to my question 

So is the whole of Northern Ireland polarised , is there no middle ground of those who wish to draw the opposite sides together?

I’ll tell you what, I’m out I don’t need to be castigated for trying to understand , nor do I need a whole in depth history lesson, you are better off fighting those who don’t share your opinion as I guess the opposing factions in N Ireland are doing to each other 

I really don’t have an informed opinion on Irish politics, but you knew that so why exploit a weakness as you perceive it ,

I just am looking forward one day to visiting Ireland a beautiful country with beautiful people , if it turns out they hate the English well that will be reminiscent of Israel 

However the Israelis didn’t heap the whole of their angst onto me , it was a historical hatred not a personal one 


Sandra


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

erneboy said:


> Many of us saw it for what it was long ago and are sick of it. Unfortunately politicians lag well behind.
> 
> But in any case lots of people vote the extremes in for fear that if they don't the other lot might. Pundits say thar is changing and the middle may vote for the centre party, Alliance
> 
> Let's hope so.


Make no mistake speaking out for the middle against the extremes in certain areas on both sides is fraught with danger, the extremes on both sides regularly exact their own form of justice. 
Just an example from my own area in the link below. The frustration of many here is that the PSNI know who these thugs are, as do I as my kids who went to school with or know of them, but the PSNI seem to lack the resolve to see them brought to the courts.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-57254605.amp

To help understanding, it's the equivalent of a Mafia culture, sleeping with the fishes is a very real reality, therefore those that speak out are the real champions more power and votes to them I say.

Terry


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## Webby1 (Mar 11, 2012)

erneboy said:


> Many of us saw it for what it was long ago and are sick of it. Unfortunately politicians lag well behind.
> 
> But in any case lots of people vote the extremes in for fear that if they don't the other lot might. Pundits say that is changing and the middle may vote for the centre party, Alliance
> 
> Let's hope so. It used to be a wasted vote. We will see.


I never thought of it that way before...................it's a bit like the prisoners dilemma
 If I go moderate how do I know my enemy will go moderate.......if he doesn't then he will have more power than me.Anyway they won't go moderate "I know what they are like.........they are all extremists"....and so it goes on.

It has worked when a more powerful force(USA) has come in to "kick ass".

You can bet we'll all love each other and fight together when the Martians invade.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

dghr272 said:


> I'll try and get you their phone number Ray. :grin2:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1411489643363721226
> ...


The finished article in Larne this year topped off with the colours of the ROI and with a flag of the modern Starry Plough......

They still don't get it, "In the workplace and life, you won't get on by falling out with people, even if you despise them... similarly, you won't win friends and influence anyone by burning their flags either...it's just basic common sense..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starry_Plough_(flag)

Terry


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

WOW.!!!!!

Ray.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Today I found the bonfire at the foot of the Comber walkway had been removed. Apparently in the middle of the night sometime over the weekend.

I had tried to create a dialogue with the 'guardians' - young lads who are 'on duty' to protect the structure.

It started when I was doing one of my litter-picking stints n had spent ages picking up bottles, cans, litter next to the bonfire. I then asked if they'd suggest to their mates (careful not to blame them personally) that they might take their litter home with them. They were reasonably chatty n actually asked for a bag for litter.

On Saturday I spoke to them again, congratulating them on the site being so much cleaner; one said You obviously had an impact. At least they'll know it wasn't me who got their bonfire shifted!

But further up the walkway there are signs of a car doing handbrake turns and what looks like the burnout of a petrol tank on the grass verge. I don't know if that's in retaliation or if it was done before the removal.

It's all feeling quite tense.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Contractors are being brought in by councils to remove dangerous bonfires. It's quite a dangerous activity but the contractors use unmarked vehicles to protect their staff.

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/...re-removed-overnight-contractors-20967178.amp

Terry


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Unmarked vehicles, even without number plates won't work. N I. is small and people talk.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

One year they brought contractors in from England but I don't think they had explained to them the dangers involved.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

????

Sandra


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

This is from 2018
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44790903.amp


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Gosh Jean, that looks really dangerous 

Hard to imagine that some would build such a structure near to where people live then set it alight as fire is so unpredictable and soon gets out of control 

I can certainly understand the anxiety it would cause

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Sandra taking part in the removal of a bonfire could result in a punishment beating or see people shot in the knees or even possibly killed. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/st.../understanding/themes/punishment_beatings.stm

Terry's description of Mafia style behaviour and rules is no exaggeration. Whole communities live under the constant threat from these people. Resisting them, or even speaking out against them is enough to see those who live in such communities suffer whatever consequences the thugs think fit.

It's not so easy to fix either since people many people who live in these communities have what Terry describes as a siege mentality. He's right, they constantly think that the other lot may get them, and often that The Police are the enemy too. Thus some people prefer the rule of the thugs. But even if they don't it's better not to give any indication of what they think. For the badly off there is no way out of these places. Education will do it for a few of their children. Those who do thrive in these communities do so almost exclusively by crime.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

erneboy said:


> Sandra taking part in the removal of a bonfire could result in a punishment beating or see people shot in the knees or even possibly killed. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/st.../understanding/themes/punishment_beatings.stm
> 
> Terry's description of Mafia style behaviour and rules is no exaggeration. Whole communities live under the constant threat from these people. Resisting them, or even speaking out against them is enough to see those who live in such communities suffer whatever consequences the thugs think fit.
> 
> It's not so easy to fix either since people many people who live in these communities have what Terry describes as a siege mentality. He's right, they constantly think that the other lot may get them, and often that The Police are the enemy too. Thus some people prefer the rule of the thugs. But even if they don't it's better not to give any indication of what they think. For the badly off there is no way out of these places. Education will do it for a few their children. Those who do thrive in these communities do so almost exclusively by crime.


Very true, some of the pics depicting thousands of new pallets raises questions of how they are sourced. The same groups that control the major bonfire builds also run the local drug trade so ready cash is freely available to them. It's not unusual to see a 40ft curtain sided trailer unloading as they also pay for delivery to site.

The local wags are suggesting the large Larne bonfire is hiding a rocketship to take the first Orangeman into space. :grin2:

Terry


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

erneboy said:


> Sandra taking part in the removal of a bonfire could result in a punishment beating or see people shot in the knees or even possibly killed. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/st.../understanding/themes/punishment_beatings.stm
> 
> Terry's description of Mafia style behaviour and rules is no exaggeration. Whole communities live under the constant threat from these people. Resisting them, or even speaking out against them is enough to see those who live in such communities suffer whatever consequences the thugs think fit.
> 
> It's not so easy to fix either since people many people who live in these communities have what Terry describes as a siege mentality. He's right, they constantly think that the other lot may get them, and often that The Police are the enemy too. Thus some people prefer the rule of the thugs. But even if they don't it's better not to give any indication of what they think. For the badly off there is no way out of these places. Education will do it for a few of their children. Those who do thrive in these communities do so almost exclusively by crime.


And we criticise the Taliban.

Ray.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Two wrongs don’t make a right Ray 

Sandra


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Oh no Sandra, I'm not saying they do.
Just maybe the kettle calling the pot etc.

Ray.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

dghr272 said:


> The local wags are suggesting the large Larne bonfire is hiding a rocketship to take the first Orangeman into space. /images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_grin.png
> 
> Terry


We can but hope!!


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

raynipper said:


> And we criticise the Taliban.
> 
> Ray.


Err, not if you lived in Afghanistan :surprise::wink2:

Terry


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Police advise against imposing responsible behaviour. https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...l-attempt-of-tigers-bay-bonfire-40634775.html


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

erneboy said:


> Police advise against imposing responsible behaviour. https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...l-attempt-of-tigers-bay-bonfire-40634775.html


All part of what is turning out to be Doris' legacy.


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

Opps maybe I'm being uncharitable. The porcine Lord Frost reckons the rise in tension in NI is the fault of Theresa May and her team.:laugh:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/northern-ireland-brexit-dup-theresa-may-irish-sea-b945041.html


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

The bonfire issue in Tigers Bay is just another impact of the siege mentality. I worked for many years in that interface. It’s always been an interface with one side blaming the other for keeping the pot boiling. The politicians on both sides ramp up the temperature for their own purposes. 

Things have improved though, I’m old enough to remember them sniping at each other with high velocity rifles. A bonfire never hurt anyone on the other side. BUT it gives local politicians kudos with potential voters therefore it suits their purposes.

If only the folk on both sides could see what I saw as I worked across the divide, ironically I was accepted as it was thought only their own sort would work in such a controversial area, they have the same worries as the other side but the politicians only exist if they can create a divide.

Terry


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Glandwr said:


> Opps maybe I'm being uncharitable. The porcine Lord Frost reckons the rise in tension in NI is the fault of Theresa May and her team./images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_smile_big.png
> 
> https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/northern-ireland-brexit-dup-theresa-may-irish-sea-b945041.html


Well yes, he conveniently forgets he hailed it a great success when HE signed up for it.

As with all Brexiters their hypocrisy knows no bounds. But that's fine as they've blinded the cult to the con.

Terry


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

For now


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

dghr272 said:


> The bonfire issue in Tigers Bay is just another impact of the siege mentality. I worked for many years in that interface. It's always been an interface with one side blaming the other for keeping the pot boiling. The politicians on both sides ramp up the temperature for their own purposes.
> 
> Things have improved though, I'm old enough to remember them sniping at each other with high velocity rifles. A bonfire never hurt anyone on the other side. BUT it gives local politicians kudos with potential voters therefore it suits their purposes.
> 
> ...


What we find particularly sad and disturbing is that when violence is filmed it always seems that it is undertaken, in the majority instance, by lots of younger men/youths. So another generation has been brought into the fray thus perpetuating the troubled times that NI has sadly had to go through.

It's not a great leap from that to think that the whole shooting match (please excuse the pun: it was not intended) could bubble over again and we will see escalated violence that we sadly used to witness and be affected by.

We all hold our breath and pray that it never does.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Think of it this way Graham.


The rioting is mostly done by kids and juveniles, many as young as 8 or 10, delighting in being able to have such fun behaving badly, cocking a snook at The Peelers who are not trusted at all in their communities. If their parents wanted to stop them they could, but at best most parents are ambivalent. Parenting is not a priority for many. Having the kids at the front means that riots can be conducted with few or no repercussions. What is the point of detaining people who won't be charged anyway?

Most of what we've seen has been recreational. We'll know it's become serious if we see adult men in the front line.


That's not to make light of it. It is disgraceful, unacceptable and has no place in a civilised society. Parts of NI are having quite a struggle accepting that they should behave in a civilised manner. They might do it but "them others" would have to do it first because everybody knows it was them 'at started it.


You are spot on in thinking that if it does start up again it will come to the mainland. It seems to me that The Clown and his mates haven't worked that out.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

erneboy said:


> The rioting is mostly done by kids and juveniles, many as young as 8 or 10, delighting in being able to have such fun behaving badly, cocking a snook at The Peelers who are not trusted at all in their communities. If their parents wanted to stop them they could, but at best most parents are ambivalent. Parenting is not a priority for many. Having the kids at the front means that riots can be conducted with few or no repercussions. What is the point of detaining people who won't be charged anyway?
> 
> Most of what we've seen has been recreational. We'll know it's become serious if we see adult men in the front line.
> 
> ...


That is a very useful insight Alan. Thanks for that.

It gets you thinking...


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I should also have pointed out the value of the indoctrination the young absorb. They are doing these fun things to save their country from the others. 


They would tell you that above all else they are profoundly Loyal to the British Crown, and will if necessary, fight Crown forces to prove it. This logic is held as unimpeachable and contains no irony that they can see. Governments come and go. Their loyalty is always to the Crown.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

A perfect example of the uselessness of these monstrosities as bonfires: https://news.sky.com/video/bonfire-...and-sending-people-in-all-directions-12352937

They are nothing more than a dangerous spectacle. It's only a matter of time ...


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Really quite frightening 

What should the government do about it ?

A serious ?, maybe a naive one 

The Irish problems seem never to have been helped by British interference 

So yes I’m pretty ignorant on Irish problems and the solutions if any

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Do you realy see what's happened as just an Irish problem?


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Actually Alan 

I don’t actually see anything 

That’s what I’m willing to learn

But there you go again, accusation

I’m just a 77 yr old English woman 

Nothing I have ever done deliberately contributed to the Irish problem 

I’ve never built a bonfire, in Ireland or elsewhere 

I’ve never felt the Irish were anything but lovely people

I’m really hoping to visit again 53 years later than my last visit

Is that OK

Sandra


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

aldra said:


> Really quite frightening
> 
> What should the government do about it ?
> 
> ...


As Alan pointed out the whole sorry recent history of NI is laced with irony. Not least that troops were actually sent in in 1969 to protect the Catholics. Their civil rights marchs had attracted the ire and violent attacks of the Protestants. Catholics who had lost faith in the RUC (local police) to protect them lined the streets and cheered the squaddies as they marched in. It took less than 12 months though before the troops were directed by the (protestant) establishment.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I made no accusation.

I asked a straightforward question.


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

Another irony and an illustration of the ignorance surrounding NI is the fact that all this was foreseen and warned about well before the Referendum.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36486016.amp


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Glandwr said:


> Another irony and an illustration of the ignorance surrounding NI is the fact that all this was foreseen and warned about well before the Referendum.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36486016.amp


Ah!! polly ticks, I bet if you search hard enough you will find them saying the opposite somewhere.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

An unnecessary question Alan 

I’ve already said I that I don’t know much about the problems in Ireland, historical or present day 

And I definitely don’t know what would bring about resolution 

It all sounds very worrying and frightening to me and I’m sad for those who have to live with it 

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> Ah!! polly ticks, I bet if you search hard enough you will find them saying the opposite somewhere.


Every brexiter said the opposite. That's the point.

So many things that were labelled project fear they have come to pass, meanwhile the brexiters point at the few that haven't.

If you look back on this thread you will find predictions very early on that NI would be the biggest hurdle.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

aldra said:


> An unnecessary question Alan
> 
> I've already said I that I don't know much about the problems in Ireland, historical or present day
> 
> ...


Not an unnecessary question at all. Following on from what you'd said I was attempting to obtain clarification of your meaning, bearing in mind that a short while before you had said that you were willing to learn.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I am Alan, and Glandwr s response was informative 

Are you saying that as N I would prove to be a hurdle in Brexit, people should have refrained from voting for Brexit for that reason?

Sandra


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

aldra said:


> I am Alan, and Glandwr s response was informative
> 
> Are you saying that as N I would prove to be a hurdle in Brexit, people should have refrained from voting for Brexit for that reason?
> 
> Sandra


:laugh::laugh::laugh: Your question presumes that it was rational and not an emotional issue Sandra :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

No, that's not what you were posting about nor is it what I asked you about.

Let me remind you. I asked you if you regarded bad behaviour in N Ireland as just an Irish problem.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Bad behaviour anywhere is everyones problem, the real question is where does it come from and how can we stop it.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Parents.

Ray.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Then we need to find a way with the parents too.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes, most certainly. Education from day one by their parents. Not passing the buck to the handy 'them'.

Ray.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Listening to the accounts of the problems in Ireland by people on here , can we really blame the parents ?

Are the parents not afraid and reluctant to speak up for fear of reprisal , is there not a degree of security in accepting the status quo difficult as it is if the alternative could threaten life ?

Is it really as simple as parental education ?

It seems to me, on the outside listening to accounts it’s much more deep seated than that , deep distrust and hatred , perhaps on both sides of the divide 

And yes ,I accept I do not know anything of that divide 

I imagine there is a middle people wanting to promote a peaceful solution within Ireland and possibly without 

And I imagine that those who are knowledgeable about the problems in Ireland, that post on this thread , occupy that middle ground 

And if I’m completely wrong just accept I’m trying to understand 

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

If we permit the status quo to prevail because interfering with miscreants provokes them into public displays of violence we would be reinforcing the message that violence or the threat of it works. Though that message has already been sent to thugs and terrorists many times in NI it would not be sensible for this, or any new government to send it again. There is still some uncertainty that violence can get them all that they want. It would be disastrous to signal might would prevail.

It would take us back to a version of Reginald Maudling's acceptable level of violence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptable_level_of_violence

Parents. Chicken and egg. At some point if we want to end the cycle of indoctrination we need to bring the young together in schools. There are a few mixed schools but not enough, and mostly it's the enlightened and middle classes who send their children to them. Integrated education might be difficult to impose but I believe that a way of phasing it in should be looked for. A form of bribery is the best idea I can come up with. Call it grant aiding, make it worth having and pay it to the parents in instalments at the end of each term. If the young can find out that "the other side" are just the same as them the problem will be greatly diminished in time. If not the indoctrination will continue. It is truly shocking to hear what some people will say about the "other" lot.

You imagine there are middle people. Of course there are. The vast majority want nothing to do with extremism, and never have done. Those of us who post here have said the same thing over and over again. You don't need to imagine that surely?


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

There you go again Alan 

I imagine because I don’t know, I am not the enemy 

If the vast amount of people want nothing to do with extremism and only the minority do what exactly is the problem 

The minority are the powerful ?

The majority are unable to deal with it ?

You said to speak up was to get targeted and even killed

Actually I’m so confused so let’s leave it that 

I’d like to visit Ireland , I’ll avoid the areas of conflict

If I actually knew which areas to avoid and why 

Maybe I’d better avoid it being British and all

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Go again doing what Sandra?

Stay out of large housing estates, just as most of us would anywhere, and you will be fine


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Rubbishing my lack of knowledge Alan 

I imagine….means just that, I don’t really know , I’m surmising rightly or wrongly , trying to understand 

But you already know that


Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I did not rubbish. I explained.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Then I apologise
I certainly recognised your explanation until

“ you don’t need to imagine that that surely “

Seems I did 

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

That credits you as knowing it.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

aldra said:


> Listening to the accounts of the problems in Ireland by people on here , can we really blame the parents ?
> 
> Are the parents not afraid and reluctant to speak up for fear of reprisal , is there not a degree of security in accepting the status quo difficult as it is if the alternative could threaten life ?
> 
> ...


Yes we can blame the parents, it's them that couldn't care less about the whereabouts of their kids. Speaking out within the family is not dangerous.
An example being, our daughter and grandson live with us, he's 14 and wanted to go out with his mates tonight, being the eleventh night (bonefire night) my daughter laid the law down that he was to be home by nine o'clock and to stay away from the bonefire area just up the road. The very same rule we laid down for ours when they were young.

Parents need to lead by example, sadly too many of the parents get involved themselves in the drunken festivities so what hope is there for some of the kids?

Terry


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

A family event. https://www.irishnews.com/news/nort...omments-on-tricolour-burning-slammed-2383367/


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Not only in Ireland then 

We have never been fans of bonfire night or fireworks , to me it’s a dangerous celebration 

We always took our kids out to a restaurant for a meal, a rare occurrence given we were a family of Eight 

Every where there are parents who have no idea where their kids are, I’ve always known exactly where mine were , but for many their lives in overcrowded living spaces, missing fathers and deprived areas where they live with gangs and drugs ?

Well I’ve never had to deal with that so I’ve no idea if I would have done better

Sandra


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

But referring to parents and families ,a dear elderly friend of mine totally against large families

And not alone in her beliefs, many shared them, used to say

“ she has 6 children, but they are all clean””

Well done me then >>:wink2:

Sandra


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Can I ask our NI brethren if there was much trouble this year as a result of the burnings? Or did it pass off peacefully?


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

GMJ said:


> Can I ask our NI brethren if there was much trouble this year as a result of the burnings? Or did it pass off peacefully?


No reports of trouble in our area, reports on the BBC that it passed off peacefully although a young lad was seriously injured as he turned himself into a human fireball whilst adding fuel to the fire.

The fire brigade were busy though

On the human side a parish priest has stated he will be praying for him and asked others to join him. A glimmer of hope still burns.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57799093

Terry


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Praying hasn't worked for over 2000 years, why will it work now?

Ray.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Thanks Terry - well that's something at least.

I can't condone flag burning though...we don't even do that when playing England at rugby


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

raynipper said:


> Praying hasn't worked for over 2000 years, why will it work now?
> 
> Ray.


You totally miss the point that it means something here when one of 'Them-uns' appears to care enough to put it into words.

Terry


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes, your right Terry. I should have read between the lines and not the actual lines.:grin2:

Ray.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

dghr272 said:


> You totally miss the point that it means something here when one of 'Them-uns' appears to care enough to put it into words.
> 
> Terry


And there is the considerable effect of having a religious leader tell his flock to pray for one of the other lot. Following from that there's the effect that actually doing the praying will have on the few who do.

So, God may not answer the prayers, but the praying still works.

It's all good.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Much the same here on bonfire night

Always some fires get out of control, some accidents, the fire brigade extra busy 

The rise of public controlled bonfires, put on by the LA have to some extent helped to ensure safety, fire work displays in controlled environments 

A lot of minor and severe accidents are caused by fireworks themselves,

Although fireworks are now popular and freely available all year round now not just around bonfire night and we have to put up with them till the early hrs of the morning frequently 

Sandra


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

erneboy said:


> And there is the considerable effect of having a religious leader tell his flock to pray for one of the other lot. Following from that there's the effect that actually doing the praying will have on the few who do.
> 
> So, God may not answer the prayers, but the praying still works.
> 
> It's all good.


Most people who believe in God accept we have been given the gift of free will

The majority of requests for divine intervention are for things we as a free people should be sorting out for ourselves

The classic is the Holocaust , where was God ?

The real question is "where was man ? " that he allowed such atrocities to go unchallenged

Sandra


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