# Why Ducato/Boxer Gearboxes Fail at low milage?



## DavyS

At just 33k miles my Ducato gearbox is losing synchro when changing from second to first. And it seems that early gearbox failure is common amongst us lot. I could not understand how the Ducato/Boxer could be the biggest selling van in Europe if the gearboxes fail at such low milages - typically less than a years usage for a delivery van.
But I have just had a very interesting chat with my local gearbox refurbisher who has said that its really a problem affecting motorhome owners.
Problem is that water drains from the scuttle down over gearbox and enters the breather; or changing daily temperatures draws moisture-laden air in through the breather which condenses in the gearbox. For a delivery van in daily use that doesnt matter cos when the van is used then the oil heats up and drives off the moisture. But if a camping van is not used frequently then the water ruins the oil (hence premature 5th gear failure?) and damages the sychros. 
He recommends driving weekly to shopping etc and changing the oil each Spring.
That would be good advice if the oil was easy to change but Fiat seem to think that on many models the gearbox oil is sealed for life.
Does this ring true?


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## Mikemoss

Dear goodness that's far too early for gearbox bother - and I thought that business of water dripping off the scuttle into the g'box had been fixed years ago.

Hope you get it sorted at no or minimal expense.


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## Stanner

Or it could just be that the gearbox just isn't used enough? Oil drains to the bottom leaving gears and synchromesh rings exposed and dry much of the time and that's enough to let the rot set in.

Same with wheel bearings - months on end sat in the same position so rollers/balls press into the races and all the grease runs to the bottom - then all of a sudden they are spun into life and raced across Europe for a few weeks.

Would you like to be treated like that :? 

I think it's a case of "use it or lose it".


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## bigcats30

Hence why sometimes low mileage aren't always the best.


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## aultymer

> I think it's a case of "use it or lose it".


That would be reasonable if Fiat had not spent a fortune advertising this chassis which has been specially designed for motorhome use. 
Did they get the fundamentals wrong on use pattern as well?


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## kimbo4x4

A transmission expert I came across some time ago warned me against labouring the engine in 5th gear. Whilst modern tdi engines will manage at low revs the torque put through the gear box components is immense leaving to failure. I was recommended to drive "like you were taught" don't labour the engine and gearbox and change down a gear when need be.


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## DTPCHEMICALS

I am in agreement with stanner and kimbo4x4.
As a Fiat van user I have clocked up in excesss of 150k miles each in the previous three vans. No clutch or gearbox problems at all.
How the vehicle is driven and driving conditions are a major factor in early component failures.
I treat my engines and gearboxes with respect. They are painfully expensive to repair.
Dave p


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## aultymer

Some of you guys are begining to sound like Fiat - " It's the drivers fault"!!!! Funny smell agin.


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## davidmac

kimbo4x4 said:


> A transmission expert I came across some time ago warned me against labouring the engine in 5th gear. Whilst modern tdi engines will manage at low revs the torque put through the gear box components is immense leaving to failure. I was recommended to drive "like you were taught" don't labour the engine and gearbox and change down a gear when need be.


Hi, so at what RPM should you change into 5th into 4th?
Regards David


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## DTPCHEMICALS

I don`t look at the RPM Either in car van motorbike or motorhome
Have been driving long enough and with a variety of vehicles to know.

Dave p


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## Easyriders

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> I don`t look at the RPM Either in car van motorbike or motorhome
> Have been driving long enough and with a variety of vehicles to know.
> 
> Dave p


He's right, you know!


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## kimbo4x4

davidmac said:


> kimbo4x4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A transmission expert I came across some time ago warned me against labouring the engine in 5th gear. Whilst modern tdi engines will manage at low revs the torque put through the gear box components is immense leaving to failure. I was recommended to drive "like you were taught" don't labour the engine and gearbox and change down a gear when need be.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, so at what RPM should you change into 5th into 4th?
> Regards David
Click to expand...

I don't have a rev counter but use my ears and eyes. Listen to the engine,look at the conditions, traffic,gradient etc.


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## Stanner

aultymer said:


> Some of you guys are begining to sound like Fiat - " It's the drivers fault"!!!! Funny smell agin.


Maybe, but then I'm always puzzled why some drivers have endless trouble whatever make/vehicle they drive and yet others have none?

Spooky - ain't it? :wink:


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## locrep

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> I don`t look at the RPM Either in car van motorbike or motorhome
> Have been driving long enough and with a variety of vehicles to know.
> 
> Dave p


Have to agree with Dave p, you should be able to drive by ear & not wait until the drive train is ready to disintergate before changing down, this is one of the reasons I am not keen on over the top remapping or worse still magic boxes, they can put far too much strain on the drive line. And if you are really determined to do your worse replace the DMF with a solid flywheel.

Dave.


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## hblewett

Stanner said:


> aultymer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of you guys are begining to sound like Fiat - " It's the drivers fault"!!!! Funny smell agin.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, but then I'm always puzzled why some drivers have endless trouble whatever make/vehicle they drive and yet others have none?
> 
> Spooky - ain't it? :wink:
Click to expand...

It's a lot to do with mechanical understanding and sympathy. My father used to be a mechanic (yes, before the days of technicians) for a haulage firm running a lot of identical vehicles. He logged when jobs were done, and some drivers went 10x as far as others before particular components needed replacing. You may say that this was due to random variations in manufacturing quality, but it was always the same drivers who came out with the best 'durability' on every component.


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## erneboy

locrep said:


> ................................... And if you are really determined to do your worse replace the DMF with a solid flywheel.
> 
> Dave.


If anyone made a conversion kit.

Also bear in mind that the proponents of DMFs say that the extra strain on the transmission will just transfer any failures from the clutch to the gearbox and that may be even more costly, Alan.


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## kimbo4x4

A look at a power/rpm graph would be interesting. Would this give optimum change up/down or climbing gearing. 
Does anyone have these for Ducato 2.5 / 2.8. 
I used to keep destroying My old Land Rover gear box by over revving the 3.5l V8 that was fitted. Accelerated like a rocket up to about 40mph then.....


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## locrep

hblewett said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aultymer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of you guys are begining to sound like Fiat - " It's the drivers fault"!!!! Funny smell agin.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, but then I'm always puzzled why some drivers have endless trouble whatever make/vehicle they drive and yet others have none?
> 
> Spooky - ain't it? :wink:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's a lot to do with mechanical understanding and sympathy. My father used to be a mechanic (yes, before the days of technicians) for a haulage firm running a lot of identical vehicles. He logged when jobs were done, and some drivers went 10x as far as others before particular components needed replacing. You may say that this was due to random variations in manufacturing quality, but it was always the same drivers who came out with the best 'durability' on every component.
Click to expand...

Exactly the same as I have found doing the same type of work. Thats how some drivers get their nicknames of Mr Smooth, Mr Clutch, Mr Brakes or TFI.

Dave.


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## locrep

Doe's anyone recall a post on here about a Ducato not holding top gear (6th) at about 50mph as the automated box would change down, but was fine to hold top gear after a remap. I tried my one in 6th at 50mph & it was not a happy bunny.

Would be interesting to hear how the box survives with the changes.

Dave.


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## Bill_H

If the failures are down to how the vehicles are driven and how often they are used or not used, surely the problems would apply equally to all base chassis, Ford, Peugeot, Mercedes et. al.


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## locrep

Bill_H said:


> If the failures are down to how the vehicles are driven and how often they are used or not used, surely the problems would apply equally to all base chassis, Ford, Peugeot, Mercedes et. al.


You have a very good point, I do not think any large vehicle manufacture builds a very good front wheel drive gearbox.

For some reason low mileage vans seem to suffer failures, I have a customer who has four, three year old 2.3 Ducatos in a mixed fleet with an average of 180000 miles on the clocks & I think only one has had a gearbox failure & that was within three months of going into service.

My own one is approaching 100k and is still on the same box & clutch.

Dave.


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## roadwarrior1

where the hell is the scuttle ? or even what is it, rushes outside to find out - is this from grey water ? or fresh ? or what ? andf how would i know ?


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## Sprinta

roadwarrior1 said:


> where the hell is the scuttle ? or even what is it, rushes outside to find out - is this from grey water ? or fresh ? or what ? andf how would i know ?


the scuttle is the panel immediately in front of the windscreen that often carries the wiper mechanism


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## DavyS

Kimbo4x4 wrote "A look at a power/rpm graph would be interesting. Would this give optimum change up/down or climbing gearing.
Does anyone have these for Ducato 2.5 / 2.8. "

I too would be interested to see the power/rpm curve for a Ducato. Attached is one for a normally-aspirated JCB diesel which might give some insight. Of interest to me is that the power curve is not greater than 45deg. So when climbing a hill in your lowest gear and losing speed, as the engine speed decreases, the amount of power avail stays relatively high until the energy required for the rate of climb falls to match the engine power. The diesel vehicle will then continue its climb without losing any more speed. Unlike a petrol-engined car where if the rpm starts to fall below about 1500rpm when climbing then you are likely to come to a juddering halt. I suspect that Turbo-asperated diesels are more peaky.


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## Stanner

Bill_H said:


> If the failures are down to how the vehicles are driven and how often they are used or not used, surely the problems would apply equally to all base chassis, Ford, Peugeot, Mercedes et. al.


As a Peugeot Boxer is only a Ducato in disguise that comparison may be irrelevant, but to test the thesis you need to have the same drivers change their make of chassis regularly and then admit to having the same problem whatever the make. You also have to take into account that some makes/transmission configurations may be more tolerant of misuse than others.

However, as there are no bad drivers who will admit to the problem being them, not the vehicle, I can't see the thesis ever being proved.


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## Mrplodd

Driving style accounts for a lot !!

Good MPG
Long lasting clutch
Long lasting brakes
Long lasting tyres
Lack of gearbox problems
Comfortable ride for passengers


If you have a heavy footed goon who does not possess a clue about what actual happens when he floors it/stands on the brakes/holds on to a higher gear than is desirable/slams it into each and every gear/dumps the clutch rather than feeds it in gently to match engine revs etc then you ARE going to have many more problems than a smooth and sympathetic driver (like wot I are!!)


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## roadwarrior1

Sprinta said:


> roadwarrior1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> where the hell is the scuttle ? or even what is it, rushes outside to find out - is this from grey water ? or fresh ? or what ? andf how would i know ?
> 
> 
> 
> the scuttle is the panel immediately in front of the windscreen that often carries the wiper mechanism
Click to expand...

so how does the rain from a scuttle ( im assuming now) affect the gearbox ?

cant hep but feel lack of use is the demon here

having seen 2 motors fall apart that had low mileage after being used more often - piston linings ect nicely polished will suddenly burn when pushed for the first time - have to say i avoid very low mileage vehicles


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## locrep

roadwarrior1 said:


> Sprinta said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> roadwarrior1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> where the hell is the scuttle ? or even what is it, rushes outside to find out - is this from grey water ? or fresh ? or what ? andf how would i know ?
> 
> 
> 
> the scuttle is the panel immediately in front of the windscreen that often carries the wiper mechanism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so how does the rain from a scuttle ( im assuming now) affect the gearbox ?
> 
> cant hep but feel lack of use is the demon here
> 
> having seen 2 motors fall apart that had low mileage after being used more often - piston linings ect nicely polished will suddenly burn when pushed for the first time - have to say i avoid above low mileage vehicles
Click to expand...

It overflows from the scuttle into the engine bay, it then collect &then it can find its way into breathers, can also cause the centre of the cylinder head to fill with water causing problems later on with trying to get injectors & fittings out.

Dave.


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## roadwarrior1

and this is peculiar to ducatos ?


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## Mike48

You should have seen the water collecting on the top of the cylinder head on my Transit - a common problem according to the Transit forum. Yet nobody has mentioned this on motorhome forums which seem to be the preserve of Fiat bashers and bashing.


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## rayc

locrep said:


> roadwarrior1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sprinta said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> roadwarrior1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> where the hell is the scuttle ? or even what is it, rushes outside to find out - is this from grey water ? or fresh ? or what ? andf how would i know ?
> 
> 
> 
> the scuttle is the panel immediately in front of the windscreen that often carries the wiper mechanism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so how does the rain from a scuttle ( im assuming now) affect the gearbox ?
> 
> cant hep but feel lack of use is the demon here
> 
> having seen 2 motors fall apart that had low mileage after being used more often - piston linings ect nicely polished will suddenly burn when pushed for the first time - have to say i avoid above low mileage vehicles
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It overflows from the scuttle into the engine bay, it then collect &then it can find its way into breathers, can also cause the centre of the cylinder head to fill with water causing problems later on with trying to get injectors & fittings out.
> 
> Dave.
Click to expand...

It has also found its way into the power steering resevoir and that is why an additional cover is now fitted to it. Very cheap and simple to fit.
The part number is F0001363602080 and is called 'Protection' and costs approx £3 from a Fiat main dealer.


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## delia

The original poster started this message by saying his synco was starting to fail at 30k miles. I posted a reply to an earlier post about a gearbox total failure as mine also failed and is still being fixed. It has been in for over a month now. Although now just over 3 years old and out of warranty this total failure is at less than 12k miles. Initially diagnosed as worn syncro on 6th with no explanation what caued the premature wear affecting 2nd 4th and 6th other than the inference I must have used the gear lever as an arm rest! I have never done this as we have arm rests on the seats and you have to lean forward to reach the lever in a motorhome so this is unlikley to ever be the cause. I have had it from new. After installing new syncros , suprise suprise it has not fixed the problem and the gearbox is being taken out again. Fiat are making a small goodwill contribution. If the cause of these failures really is water entering the gearbox (and it seems it could be one logical explanation for the premature failures) then that is a design fault not an owner fault for not using it every week. This Ducato Cab is especially produced for the MH market and it is known that MHs have infrequent and irregular use and so should be designed and adapted accordingly. It is also not acceptable to infer it is the driver as driving school cars last longer 12k miles before needing a gearbox. Most of my mileage has been clocked up on long motorway journeys not requiring any gear changes at all. Unfortunately there is no alternative as Fiat have a monoply on the size/ price.


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## davidmac

kimbo4x4 said:


> A look at a power/rpm graph would be interesting. Would this give optimum change up/down or climbing gearing.
> Does anyone have these for Ducato 2.5 / 2.8.
> I used to keep destroying My old Land Rover gear box by over revving the 3.5l V8 that was fitted. Accelerated like a rocket up to about 40mph then.....


Hi ,on one of the chipping websites there is a graph of the before and after power /torque curves for 2.8hdi/jtd. The two problems with the Fiat /Pug drivetrains are excesive torque causing clutch slip and low revs in 5th gear not lubricating 5th gear cog. In standard tune torque is 240k/n @ 1500rpm and 300k/n @2000rpm.When tuned the figures are 280 & 366.What I would like to find out is at what rpm does the 5th gear cog not get enough lubrication. 50 mph is about 1750 and the mh pulls ok down to 1300 rpm ,I dont drive it below 1400 generaly thinking about gear lubrication. I had a early Ducatto 2.5 van back in 1987 for work 5th gear gave up in that at 185000m but I used to drive that with my right foot wedged to the floor at all times. When chipped you are putting 20% extra load on the clutch.
Regards David


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## Stanner

delia said:


> This Ducato Cab is especially produced for the MH market and it is known that MHs have infrequent and irregular use and so should be designed and adapted accordingly.


Not all converters choose to use the motorhome specific chassis though, so that could be the source of some of the problem vehicles......

http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/know-your-base-vehicles-0


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## teensvan

Hi. 

We have a 2004 Burstner 748 with 27000 on it. After the first year I chipped the engine and fitted the lower 5th gear. The 2 mods to geather gave the van a much better drive and increased MPG by 1.5 MPG. I never let the van pull hard in 5th gear lower than 2000 RPM or 1800 RPM in 4th. 

The engine will tell you when you are in the correct rev range for a particular gear just by listening to it and not listening to a blasting radio. 

A heavy van with a small capacity diesel engine needs revs not labour. 
and use. 

steve & ann. -------------- teensvan


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## roadwarrior1

so is it a problem peculier to motorhomes due to low use then ?
as opposed to model specifics


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## Stanner

roadwarrior1 said:


> so is it a problem peculier to motorhomes due to low use then ?
> as opposed to model specifics


Have you ever seen a 5 year old delivery van with less than 20,000ml on the clock? :?

There are plenty of m/homes with low mileage like that. :wink:


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## Christine600

rayc said:


> It has also found its way into the power steering resevoir and that is why an additional cover is now fitted to it. Very cheap and simple to fit.
> The part number is F0001363602080 and is called 'Protection' and costs approx £3 from a Fiat main dealer.


Thank you for this, Ray. The steering on my 2010 model has become very heavy over the last few weeks. Perhaps this is the cause? I have an appointment at a garage over the weekend.


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## Enock

teensvan said:


> Hi.
> 
> We have a 2004 Burstner 748 with 27000 on it. After the first year I chipped the engine and fitted the lower 5th gear.


May I ask, some details of getting the lower 5th gear fitted??

Basically who did it, where are they, and roughly how much ££


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## tuk-tuk

Could cruise control be associated with this problem?.
tuk-tuk


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## Mrplodd

Cruise control being a possible cause?

Now that's an interesting question! It certainly could be. Driver selects CC then just lets it get on with controlling speed. If the road speed drops CC will input more and more throttle to compensate, if its not an auto box then CC has to make do with top gear, road speed and engine revs drop. That will put a strain on the drive train (certainly WON'T wear the synchro hubs though) If its an auto gearbox then it will change down as and when necessary when CC is engaged.

Maybe the OP should put a poll onto this thread to see if all/most of the gearbox problems occur on CC equipped GM's ?


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## trevd01

Interesting thread.

My Comfortmatic Ducato is very happy in sixth gear at 50mph, but there is a lot less drag with a panel van, evn though it weighs the same as a coachbuilt.

I'm interested in the high gear/low revs/insufficient oil/high torque discusussion. Mrs D01's Polo Bluemotion is ridiculously high geared and will troll along at 50mph doing 1,000 rpm. Need to change down for hills though! I took it to work a couple of days this week, I got 90mpg and 80mpg on the two days (27 miles mixed urban/rural/motorway/city). Going home I only got 60mpg both days - traffic conditions worse plus the c300m ascent on the journey.

There is an interesting discussion (for me as a geek) here:

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=43542.0


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## FoweyBoy

Just read this topic and am confused!

I thought the water ingress to gearbox problem was with the pre-2006/7 model and it was fixed with an extra drain pipe.

I know there were problems initially with the new chassis (X250?) and water leaking from the scuttle over the engine, but should now be fixed.

Are the previous posters talking about the current chassis or the pre-2006 one?

Are you saying that water can get into the new X250 gearbox?


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## locrep

trevd01 said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> My Comfortmatic Ducato is very happy in sixth gear at 50mph, but there is a lot less drag with a panel van, evn though it weighs the same as a coachbuilt.


I wonder if there are different gearbox ratios in a purpose made camper chassis box, as I have a converted van with the 160 engine in it & whilst on the flat it is happy enough at 50mph with cruise engaged, but needs to come down a gear when slight inclines in the road appear, I could just leave it but it does sound to be in the wrong gear.

Dave.


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## trevd01

locrep said:


> I wonder if there are different gearbox ratios in a purpose made camper chassis box
> Dave.


I'm almost 100% certain the answer is no.

I generally don't even notice which gear I'm in, because the Comfortmatic chooses the one Fiat has programmed it to be in for the throttle/speed/load/gradient. which 99.9% of the time I'm happy with. I never use the manual gear settings, although I do use the 'hill' position as designed.

Having followed other threads on similar subjects I do look at the gear indicator from time-to-time, and cruising at 50 (cruise control or under my right foot command) it will mostly be in sixth.

With my torque converter auto-box Landrover, there is no way of knowing which 'gear' you are in - mine's only six-speed, 2012 models have an eight-speed auto


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## delia

FoweyBoy said:


> Just read this topic and am confused!
> 
> I thought the water ingress to gearbox problem was with the pre-2006/7 model and it was fixed with an extra drain pipe.
> 
> I know there were problems initially with the new chassis (X250?) and water leaking from the scuttle over the engine, but should now be fixed.
> 
> Are the previous posters talking about the current chassis or the pre-2006 one?
> 
> Are you saying that water can get into the new X250 gearbox?


My post regarding total gearbox failure at less than 12k miles relates to an X250 6 speed manual at just over 3 years old. It is the 160 on a purpose built Alko chassis Autotrail. I am still awaiting confirmation as to what they think has caused the premature wear (they could not tell me the first time they dismantled the gearbox). Grasping at straws but the suggestion that Water ingress "could" be one explanation (but I would have thought there would be evidence of it in the gearbox and that the mechanic might have noticed it).


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## Mrplodd

Delia

I would suggest that if Fiat do admit that its water in the gearbox there is a clear path for legal action to get the repair done at no cost as Fiat will, in effect, be admitting there is a basic design fault with their product!!


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## roadwarrior1

Mrplodd said:


> Delia
> 
> I would suggest that if Fiat do admit that its water in the gearbox there is a clear path for legal action to get the repair done at no cost as Fiat will, in effect, be admitting there is a basic design fault with their product!!


so the likelyhood of that is between 0 - 0.01 then :lol:


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## Christine600

locrep said:


> I wonder if there are different gearbox ratios in a purpose made camper chassis box


Don't think so. Or the reverse would not be so quick. Mine feels like the comfortable cruising speed backwards is in the neighbourhood of 50 mph. 8O


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## Sprinta

reverse gear has no bearing on how top gear operates.



if we are talking about the 5 speed box fitted to a 2.8JTD 2002 - 2006 there are 2 top gear ratios available

53/31 is the version that gives approx 30mph per 1000rpm, and is really a hellish overdrive up from 4 th gear. 4th gear at 60mph = 3000rpm and going into top drops the revs down to 2000. This is the ratio I blame for clutch problems as I reckon it was designed for use by white van man with an empty truck and not for us where our truck is permanently loaded.

alternatively there is a 45/33 ratio pair of gears available. They are a very simple job to fit along with a new locknut, refill with 2.7 litres of F/S oil and a splodge of gasket goo. Allow a couple of hours to do the job. This gives a top gear ratio where 2000rpm = 48mph, 2500= 60 approx.

The difference is that now 5th gear is flexible and can be used on even modest gradients without any worries. 

Top speed is noticeably reduced but this is a 3.5tonne brick being forced through the air, 50/55 is now very easy and will undoubtedly reduce the strain on the transmission.

Prices from Fiat are as follows
Nut £12.86
45 gear £63.96
33 gear £45.56
VAT £24.48
total £146.86

add a bit of oil, I also used a gearbox additive, say £40

gives a grand total of just shy of £200.

perhaps you can find a tame mechanic if you don't want to do it yourself and maybe get charged £60/£80?

I'll report back with a better analysis when we come back from a jaunt to le continent in a couple of weeks, as I can then compare fuel consumption and overall ease of driving from my records over the past 2years and 12000 miles.


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## teensvan

Hi Enock. 

I purchased the 5th gear cluster for £150 direct from main Fiat dealer in Canterbury but that was in 2005. I then got the gear cluster fitted by a G/Box repairer in Gillingham for another £150. This took only 2.5 hours to carry out. It is a D I Y job if you are a good fitter with the correct tools. It was only my wife and a nearly new van that I did not do the job myself. 

steve & ann. ------------- teensvan


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## davidmac

Hi Sprinta, just the information I was looking for, mine is a 4ton brick with 4 vents + air con+solar stuck on the roof and a roof rack.
Regards David


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## Stanner

locrep said:


> trevd01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting thread.
> 
> My Comfortmatic Ducato is very happy in sixth gear at 50mph, but there is a lot less drag with a panel van, evn though it weighs the same as a coachbuilt.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if there are different gearbox ratios in a purpose made camper chassis box, as I have a converted van with the 160 engine in it & whilst on the flat it is happy enough at 50mph with cruise engaged, but needs to come down a gear when slight inclines in the road appear, I could just leave it but it does sound to be in the wrong gear.
> 
> Dave.
Click to expand...




> The current Ducato X250, launched in 2006, was the first chassis-cab to be specifically designed for motorhome manufacture.
> Fiat DucatoAvailable on four wheelbases, the 'special' motorhome chassis differs significantly from that used on commercial vehicle chassis cabs: it's lighter, with a lower (145mm) ground clearance, and the rear track of 1980mm is wider than the standard Ducato's 1790mm.
> 
> Not all converters use the special motorhome chassis though, instead preferring the standard version.
> 
> The most popular engine offered by motorhome manufacturers is the 2.3-litre 130 Multijet, a motorhome-only unit, which gives 130bhp and 236 lb/ft of torque.
> The gear ratios are 'motorhome-specific', with a sixth gear that improves motorway cruising.


From:-
http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/know-your-base-vehicles-0

So if your converter bought the motorhome specific chassis you will have a motorhome specific 2.3 engine with motorhome specific gearing.

Whether that also applies to vans bought for PCV conversions isn't clear - can you get a PCV with a 2.3 engine? or are they all either 2.2 or 3.0?


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## Enock

Looking forward to Sprintas report with much interest, as it seems his driving style, and van very much mirror my issues... Ie engine just not in it's "sweet spot" for maximum efficiency and ease at a nice cruising speed of 55 mph..

I have cruise, to help with the bad knee, and I openly admit to being lazy and allowing the engine to really slog in to high a gear, at to low a speed.... I know this is wrong, as I can feel it, but if I were to drive in the so called sweet spot, I'd be up and down the box every 2 minutes...

Im very optimistic that this is the solution I'm looking for, and like Sprinta, I now have 10k very accurately recorded miles under my belt, so any changes, will become instantly noticable...

The other thing, is, if it doesn't work out, we can always fit the old gears back in... :wink:


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## locrep

Hi Stanner, I believe the only engines available are 2.3 & 3 litre.

Dave.


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## Stanner

locrep said:


> Hi Stanner, I believe the only engines available are 2.3 & 3 litre.
> 
> Dave.


According to the Fiat Professional website

There are 2 x 2.2 engines (100 and 120bhp)

3 x 2.3 engines (110, 130 & 150bhp)

and 2 x 3.0 (160 & 180bhp)

http://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/uk/Models/Ducato_Goods_Transport

Whether all engines are available on all chassis variants isn't clear at first glance.


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## loddy

I still want to know why the OP needs to change from 2nd to 1st, does he do a lot of hill climbing ???
And don''t he match engine speed to road speed before changing ( as I was taught in 1960 ) you don't need a clutch then

Loddy


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## DavyS

Several people have asked for clarification on the age and mark of vehicle. It is a twelve year old Mk2 Ducato but mileage only in the mid thirties. So don't think I shall be able to claim on the warrantee! 
I wished I had never mentioned the scuttle water dumping on the gearbox cos this is not central to the theory. Which was that normal daily temperature variations will draw damp air into the gearbox via the breather which will then condense overnight. Thats no problem with a vehicle used daily cos the gearbox gets hot and the water evaporates out of the breather. But with a motorhome which may be laid up for months at a time then the water can damage the internals and ruin the oil. 
Hence the recommendation to drive it weekly and change the oil yearly.


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## DavyS

loddy said:


> I still want to know why the OP needs to change from 2nd to 1st, does he do a lot of hill climbing ???
> And don''t he match engine speed to road speed before changing ( as I was taught in 1960 ) you don't need a clutch then
> 
> Loddy


On hills of about 20-25% the road speed decays to about 10mph in second and I feel the need to change into first (its the none turbo version).

And your second question; I imagine that you are referring to double-declutching? I am so slow at it that if at 10mph on a 25% hill I try doing it going from second to first then the vehicle is likely to coast to a near halt before I engage first!


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## trevd01

:idea: I think we now have a different set of facts to base our theories on,

12 yr old non-turbo Ducato based van, less than 3,000 miles per year. 

Have you had the van since new? If not, do you know its provenance? (i.e. it could have done a lot more miles and been clocked, or been laid up for years). 

I suspect a post saying 'gearbox fails after only 12 years' might not have had the same responses as this one :?:


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## DavyS

trevd01 said:


> :idea: I think we now have a different set of facts to base our theories on,
> 
> 12 yr old non-turbo Ducato based van, less than 3,000 miles per year.
> 
> Have you had the van since new? If not, do you know its provenance? (i.e. it could have done a lot more miles and been clocked, or been laid up for years).
> 
> I suspect a post saying 'gearbox fails after only 12 years' might not have had the same responses as this one :?:


Yes, I have all the documentation so I know the milage is genuine.
Why would a gearbox fail after 30k miles on a decade-old MH be acceptable? And its not a one-off problem; the gearbox specialist I was quoting in my original post says he sees this all the time on motorhomes but not delivery vans.


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## trevd01

It's never good when a major component fails, no matter how old it is. Our clutch disintegrated on our '09 plate Ducato at 5k miles/ 1 year. Component failure just seems less surprising in an older vehicle, I guess.

[Mrs d01's last car had all sorts of unlikely things go wrong with it (all within weeks) at only 30k miles, but seven years old.

Her latest VW (now 12k miles 3 years) has had more things go wrong with it (one thing!) than my 15 month old 30k miles Landrover (none).

I put the VW failure down to lack of use - the fuel filler flap release stopped working - her Polo Bluemotion had only been filled up 18 times in 12k miles!] 8O


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## Stanner

DavyS said:


> Why would a gearbox fail after 30k miles on a decade-old MH be acceptable? And its not a one-off problem; the gearbox specialist I was quoting in my original post says he sees this all the time on motorhomes but not delivery vans.


I think there is a clue in the second part of the above the motorhome boxes just don't get enough use.

They sit around for ages with all the oil (and there isn't that much in a gearbox) drained down to the bottom of the gear cluster with most of the cluster high dry and unprotected.

For the first god knows how long of each drive the gears in the upper part of the box are running dry and unprotected.

Gearboxes do not have a pump to circulate pressurised oil through all the bearings and cogs, they rely on bits going round and round to wind oil up the teeth so it drips back down again.

I'd be wondering why gearboxes (mal)treated by lack of use like that didn't fail, not if them failing was "acceptable".


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## bigcats30

Stanner said:


> DavyS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would a gearbox fail after 30k miles on a decade-old MH be acceptable? And its not a one-off problem; the gearbox specialist I was quoting in my original post says he sees this all the time on motorhomes but not delivery vans.
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is a clue in the second part of the above the motorhome boxes just don't get enough use.
> 
> They sit around for ages with all the oil (and there isn't that much in a gearbox) drained down to the bottom of the gear cluster with most of the cluster high dry and unprotected.
> 
> For the first god knows how long of each drive the gears in the upper part of the box are running dry and unprotected.
> 
> Gearboxes do not have a pump to circulate pressurised oil through all the bearings and cogs, they rely on bits going round and round to wind oil up the teeth so it drips back down again.
> 
> I'd be wondering why gearboxes (mal)treated by lack of use like that didn't fail, not if them failing was "acceptable".
Click to expand...

Then surely that means they are not fit for purpose seeing as motorhomes are designed to sit for long periods.


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## Stanner

bigcats30 said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavyS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would a gearbox fail after 30k miles on a decade-old MH be acceptable? And its not a one-off problem; the gearbox specialist I was quoting in my original post says he sees this all the time on motorhomes but not delivery vans.
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is a clue in the second part of the above the motorhome boxes just don't get enough use.
> 
> They sit around for ages with all the oil (and there isn't that much in a gearbox) drained down to the bottom of the gear cluster with most of the cluster high dry and unprotected.
> 
> For the first god knows how long of each drive the gears in the upper part of the box are running dry and unprotected.
> 
> Gearboxes do not have a pump to circulate pressurised oil through all the bearings and cogs, they rely on bits going round and round to wind oil up the teeth so it drips back down again.
> 
> I'd be wondering why gearboxes (mal)treated by lack of use like that didn't fail, not if them failing was "acceptable".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then surely that means they are not fit for purpose seeing as motorhomes are designed to sit for long periods.
Click to expand...

Are they?


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## aultymer

> For the first god knows how long of each drive the gears in the upper part of the box are running dry and unprotected.


Until the first time a gear is engaged!

Having designed gearboxes for 500hp coal cutters (and that was as an apprentice designer) I do have a little knowledge of the subject. Splash lubricated gearboxes are usually lubricated by the first turn of the box no matter how long they have been sitting. 
Stop being such an apologist for Fiat. 
They advertise a motorhome designed chassis. They fail. 
If Fiat don't know that motorhomes sit for long periods unused then what else don't they know about motorhome use? 
Oh yes - they don't know that they may have to reverse, under control, along single track roads or into tight parking places on aires. Oh, and they don't know that letting water fall on cylinder heads and electrics knacker vans.


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## Stanner

aultymer said:


> For the first god knows how long of each drive the gears in the upper part of the box are running dry and unprotected.
> 
> 
> 
> Until the first time a gear is engaged!
> 
> Having designed gearboxes for 500hp coal cutters (and that was as an apprentice designer) I do have a little knowledge of the subject. Splash lubricated gearboxes are usually lubricated by the first turn of the box no matter how long they have been sitting.
> Stop being such an apologist for Fiat.
> They advertise a motorhome designed chassis. They fail.
> If Fiat don't know that motorhomes sit for long periods unused then what else don't they know about motorhome use?
> Oh yes - they don't know that they may have to reverse, under control, along single track roads or into tight parking places on aires. Oh, and they don't know that letting water fall on cylinder heads and electrics knacker vans.
Click to expand...

Not an apologist for Fiat*, just trying to put a little understanding into the subject.

However I of course defer to your far superior knowledge and accept that oil is instantaneously spread throughout the entire gear cluster the instant a gear is engaged.

How then do YOU explain the phenomenon that used gearboxes generally appear not to fail as often as unused gearboxes, which generally appear the more likely to fail?

* I never specifically mentioned Fiat (despite the title of the thread) I only mentioned gearboxes in general. The gearbox I have personal knowledge of, that failed dramatically soon after being intensively used after many years of non-use was in fact a Renault Trafic one. The motorhome in question had done less than 100 miles in the preceding 5 years as it had only been driven to be taken for an annual MOT.

I have personally never had a gearbox fail, nor had a clutch that judders (well not on a Fiat anyway) so I must in some way be blessed with amazing good luck. 
Not only that, Fiat must be very perceptive to be able to allocate their stock of duff gearboxes to motorhomes that will get less than average use.


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## emmbeedee

Stanner said:


> accept that oil is instantaneously spread throughout the entire gear cluster the instant a gear is engaged.


Surely oil will be spread as soon as the engine is started, as long as the clutch is engaged. With the clutch engaged, the first motion shaft & connected gears, together with the meshing gears on the layshaft, will all be rotating regardless of whether a gear is engaged or not. Engaging a gear only means that the dog teeth are locked in to their mating gear to start the third motion shaft rotating.
Maybe those of us who leave their motorhomes standing for long periods, (including me unfortunately lately), should let their engine tick over for a minute or two after starting to let the oil spread around.


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## aultymer

> How then do YOU explain the phenomenon that used gearboxes generally appear not to fail as often as unused gearboxes, which generally appear the more likely to fail?


So now you have information on the number of low use, non- motorhome, failures. Wow. 
Do other, non Fiat bases suffer the same proportion of failures on their low use boxes?
IT was not my suggestion that Fiat allocate gearboxes. Fiat's expensive ads in the mags claim that this chassis is specially designed for motorhomes. 
Though I have never had a Fiat for it to fail (maybe luck, maybe just got more sense than buy Fiat) I do know of at least one buy back, with gagging clause.

Your signature says it all.


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## Stanner

aultymer said:


> So now you have information on the number of low use, non- motorhome, failures. Wow.


Wow, where do you get that from?
I was simply accepting what was confidently asserted earlier in the thread, i.e. there is a problem with little used motorhome gearboxes that does not appear to occur with well used "white vans".

If you know that not to be the case take it up with the asserter not me.

My sole contribution was to offer a possible explanation which has been comprehensively dismissed by an expert and I have accepted that it must therefore be wrong.



> Do other, non Fiat bases suffer the same proportion of failures on their low use boxes?


I don't know, as I stated the one failure where I have personal knowledge of a previously little used gearbox failing dramatically when pressed into active service was a Renault one.

As for the rest, well you're the expert - you explain the (apparent) difference in failure rates as reported by others (not me as I've never had a failure in any make or form of vehicle).


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## aultymer

I have never hear the term "expert" used as an insult before - I am glad you are the only one who thinks I am one. (I said, "a little knowledge")
Since we are going round in circles here about something which would appear to affect neither of us (other than pushing up the value of non Sevel vehicles) I'm out of it.


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## Stanner

aultymer said:


> I have never hear the term "expert" used as an insult before - I am glad you are the only one who thinks I am one. (I said, "a little knowledge")
> Since we are going round in circles here about something which would appear to affect neither of us (other than pushing up the value of non Sevel vehicles) I'm out of it.


You claimed knowledge in dismissing my conjecture that lack of use might be a cause of the problem (my conjecture being based on a statement from another poster and backed up by my conversations with a local garage who do a lot of work on all sorts of van gearboxes) - so I assumed (dangerous I know) that you had certain first hand knowledge that lack of use couldn't be the problem.

The only gearbox I know of that has failed (disastrously so in the middle of Sweden) after a long period of under-use was a non-Sevel vehicle so I can't see why anything here should push up the price of non-Sevel vehicles.

I have no problem with you dismissing my theory, but please do us all the courtesy of making a convincing case as to why it can't be true.

In so many other automotive instances (brakes, wheel bearings, air con, tyres, etc.) lack of use is worse than use, so why should gear boxes be any different.

Bye :wink:


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## Stanner

PS

If you truly have never heard the word "expert" used as an insult before, you really have lead a sheltered life. :?


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## Sprinta

Stanner said:


> PS
> 
> If you truly have never heard the word "expert" used as an insult before, you really have lead a sheltered life. :?


ex = has-been
spurt = drip under pressure

:lol:


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## trevd01

I've just calculated:

A 12year old van with 36k miles has stood idle for 99% of the time...

A 1year old van with 36k miles has stood idle for 86% of the time. 8O


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## tony50

Stanner said:


> DavyS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would a gearbox fail after 30k miles on a decade-old MH be acceptable? And its not a one-off problem; the gearbox specialist I was quoting in my original post says he sees this all the time on motorhomes but not delivery vans.
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is a clue in the second part of the above the motorhome boxes just don't get enough use.
> 
> They sit around for ages with all the oil (and there isn't that much in a gearbox) drained down to the bottom of the gear cluster with most of the cluster high dry and unprotected.
> 
> For the first god knows how long of each drive the gears in the upper part of the box are running dry and unprotected.
> 
> Gearboxes do not have a pump to circulate pressurised oil through all the bearings and cogs, they rely on bits going round and round to wind oil up the teeth so it drips back down again.
> 
> I'd be wondering why gearboxes (mal)treated by lack of use like that didn't fail, not if them failing was "acceptable".
Click to expand...

My experience of fiat /Citreon or whatever they are badged as an Ex garage owner grease monkey or whatever is that I never liked them problems we had with them cars and vans , that's why I never bought one and if you take the cars and vans , and ask yourself why do they not hold there residue values very well ?

Tony A.


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## locrep

tony50 said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavyS said:
> 
> 
> 
> and ask yourself why do they not hold there residue values very well ?
> 
> Tony A.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Tony, When was the last time you looked at buying a Fiat or any other make of van, van's at the moment are not cheap?
> 
> How many choices of vans are there now compared to when you were a garage owner.
> 
> Can you name one FWD van with a common rail engine that has a good reliable gearbox fitted.
> 
> Dave.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Stanner

trevd01 said:


> I've just calculated:
> 
> A 12year old van with 36k miles has stood idle for 99% of the time...
> 
> A 1year old van with 36k miles has stood idle for 86% of the time. 8O


What about a far more typical 3 year old white van with 100,000 miles on the clock? Compared to a fairly typical 3 year old motorhome with 10,000 miles?


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## trevd01

[quote="Stanner
What about a far more typical 3 year old white van with 100,000 miles on the clock? Compared to a fairly typical 3 year old motorhome with 10,000 miles?[/quote]

Well my percentages would be the same for 108k and 9k, which is the same as the 36k and 3k a year I based my estimate on.

A white van 108k miles in 3yrs =86% idle 
A motorhome 9k miles in 3yrs =99% idle

Major assumption that went into my mental calculation here, BTW, is an average of 30mph for both. If the white van were a motorway courier averaging 50mph overall, for example it would have more idle time (i.e. less time driving).

I'm not trying to prove anything here, it's just the way my geeky mind works... :wink:


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## Stanner

trevd01 said:


> Major assumption that went into my mental calculation here, BTW, is an average of 30mph for both. If the white van were a motorway courier averaging 50mph overall, for example it would have more idle time (i.e. less time driving).
> 
> I'm not trying to prove anything here, it's just the way my geeky mind works... :wink:


In that your working is way out, Using a far more typical average speed for a white van they must be idle for 99.9% of the time :lol:

Personally I think it is more about frequency of use, steady regular daily use -v- "block use" (i.e. long periods of inactivity followed by short periods of intensive use) that causes the problem. No machinery really likes being treated like that which is why standby equipment like generators are regularly "run up" and used for a while, it isn't just to check they still work.


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## tony50

locrep said:


> tony50 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavyS said:
> 
> 
> 
> and ask yourself why do they not hold there residue values very well ?
> 
> Tony A.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll put it another way most vans of Motor home size doing parcel deliveries etc are Transits or Sprinters surely there must be a message there .As regards to gearbox non reliability / failure well there has been enough words on the subject to join up and stretch around the world and join up .It's all a matter of opinion and that's mine If you think that's wrong fair enough . ps. as for a cheap van I never intermated any van is cheap , and another personal opinion I like rear wheel drive and a chassis that's not been chopped up!.
> 
> Tony A.
> 
> Hi Tony, When was the last time you looked at buying a Fiat or any other make of van, van's at the moment are not cheap?
> 
> How many choices of vans are there now compared to when you were a garage owner.
> 
> Can you name one FWD van with a common rail engine that has a good reliable gearbox fitted.
> 
> Dave.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## tony50

aultymer said:


> For the first god knows how long of each drive the gears in the upper part of the box are running dry and unprotected.
> 
> 
> 
> Until the first time a gear is engaged!
> 
> Having designed gearboxes for 500hp coal cutters (and that was as an apprentice designer) I do have a little knowledge of the subject. Splash lubricated gearboxes are usually lubricated by the first turn of the box no matter how long they have been sitting.
> Stop being such an apologist for Fiat.
> They advertise a motorhome designed chassis. They fail.
> If Fiat don't know that motorhomes sit for long periods unused then what else don't they know about motorhome use?
> Oh yes - they don't know that they may have to reverse, under control, along single track roads or into tight parking places on aires. Oh, and they don't know that letting water fall on cylinder heads and electrics knacker vans.
Click to expand...

Hi just read you quote ,you hit the nail on the head better than me .

Tony A.


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## cobman

*ducato/boxer gearbox*

I am half way through changing gear ratios as in Sprintas post. Can you tell me if the nut holding the smaller gear is supposed to be an 'interference fit' as I had a helluva job removing it and it looks like the new nut is going to be the same putting on
Thanks
Roger


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## Pudsey_Bear

DavyS said:


> At just 33k miles my Ducato gearbox is losing synchro when changing from second to first. And it seems that early gearbox failure is common amongst us lot. I could not understand how the Ducato/Boxer could be the biggest selling van in Europe if the gearboxes fail at such low milages - typically less than a years usage for a delivery van.
> But I have just had a very interesting chat with my local gearbox refurbisher who has said that its really a problem affecting motorhome owners.
> Problem is that water drains from the scuttle down over gearbox and enters the breather; or changing daily temperatures draws moisture-laden air in through the breather which condenses in the gearbox. For a delivery van in daily use that doesnt matter cos when the van is used then the oil heats up and drives off the moisture. But if a camping van is not used frequently then the water ruins the oil (hence premature 5th gear failure?) and damages the sychros.
> He recommends driving weekly to shopping etc and changing the oil each Spring.
> That would be good advice if the oil was easy to change but Fiat seem to think that on many models the gearbox oil is sealed for life.
> Does this ring true?


I've not read the other replies so sorry if it's already been written, our 2.8 Ducato had the 5th gear issue, it's a four speed box with an extra satellite 5th, it doesn't like to be left in 5th, drop to 4th or back off the gas every so often on motorways as it is splash fed not pumped, another cure is to use ATF and not gear oil as this will splash more readily and get into the smaller workings easier and more often, it's an easy fix to swap the parts, odd bit of kit too, not surprised it breaks, very expensive, but we got ours sorted with used parts for about £180 in Wakefield, found them on Ebay.This company sorted ours. cash works there too. :wink: :wink:


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