# UK



## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

I don't know whether this sort of comment has already been covered as I cannot find it but I am increasingly getting demoralised in this green and pleasant land of ours.

When I go to France, Italy or Spain, the streets are clean, the loos are spotless, the quality of food is exceptional and when I come out of the tunnel back home I am depressed beyond belief at what I see. First thing is the state of our roads, then the litter up and down the sides of the roads and in towns and if I feel really suicidal, I will stop in a Little Chef for stuff they would be shot for in France.

This country is becoming the cess pool of Europe and I really want out. All our services which were once a yardstick for other countries been systematically destroyed: NHS, Education etc - and to add insult to injury we are now spending billions killing people in far off lands in the name of humanitarism (something like that anyway).

Are there any like minded people on this forum or is it just me becoming old and grumpy? :?


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## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

Hi,

I spend four months of the year in France, Spain, Italy etc and when over there, I do get somewhat irked by hearing my fellow countrymen talking in this way. It is easy to unthinkingly take all the positives of UK living for granted and focus just on the negatives (and I readily accept that there are negatives).

I don't know where you have been in these other countries but while I love them for their positives as much as any other person, I have to say the following:-

1. The filthiest toilets I have ever seen have been in France and Spain - and I mean really filthy. Their best facilities are good (often paid for by tolls etc or on good campsites) but public facilities can be really uncivilised.

2. If you want to see serious littering, then take a trip along the Spanish Meditteranean coast. There is littering and fly tipping that projects the UK into a positive paragon of virtue. Stop in a parking area used by lorry drivers and count the yellow bottles if you have that much time. Sure, if you go to provincial Spanish Towns and Cities, many of them are clean but many others are dumps that we wouldn't tolerate in the UK. Spanish roadside litter is in a league of it's own.

3. Next time you go camping in the UK, ask foreign tourists what they think to the UK and you will get generally upbeat 'holiday mode' positive reactions (assuming it isn't raining at the time). I find that foreign nationals that I befriend abroad usually tend to rubbish their own countries in much the same way that us Brits do.

The positives of the UK are too numerous to list here but I would ask you to take your grumpy hat off (I also wear it occasionally) and stop believing what the comic book newspapers and trashy TV keep shoving down our throats and take a real look at our lot - not as bad as we often tend to think.

Anyway, I'm off to France & Italy in September - can't wait!

Cheer up,

Steve


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## 88741 (May 9, 2005)

Hear hear Steve!!


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Well put Steve,

I'm afraid I do grumble a bit as we trundle up the road from Dover, usually into a traffic jam, but this is home and I love it. We have had a couple of oppourtunities to emagrate but have decided to stay. This country has a lot to offer.

Yes you will always get a bit of 'the grass is always greener on the other side', a lot of Europeans feel that way about us! Good and bad everywhere I'm afraid prusser, I'd love to change allsorts about this country but it ain't too bad so I'll stick with it for now and when I want to get away the escapemobile is just outside......


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

I have noted your points SteveC and although my visits to France, Italy or Spain over the years have been max 2 week saga's, I have not experienced any of your experiences at anytime since the eighties with the possible exception of the public loo in Venice.

However, I have noticed that I only need to spend a day in this country to obtain your European results.

It is true of course, that the majority of my visits are to tourist areas and maybe a trip into the non touristy bits could alter my opinion some what but the difference to me is so staggering in my visits I felt the need to comment.

I would be interested to hear from anyone what is good about this country as I have obviously missed it although valued it up until about the mid seventies when the decline started.


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Pusser 

I'm probably a grumpy old git as well. 

My wife and I usually make the same observations as you do. We mainly travel France as we don't particularly like a lot of the built up Spain. the things we notice most is the general lack of rubbish and graffiti.

John and Pat.


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Difficult one this, I tend to agree with pusser as well, but wouldn’t quite put it that strongly, there are good and bad points to both Europe and the UK. Don’t feel I can answer the question properly without it going to several rambling pages so I’ll just make a few observations on what’s been said already….

French public toilets (when available) leave a lot to be desired (understatement).

Regarding litter, its not only Spain that has this problem, Greece, especially outside the touristy bits has a cronic litter problem, it really has to be seen to be believed.

In France, the roads are generally congestion free (excluding major cities), but when there’s an accident, or roadworks, boy, does it throw them into total confusion or what! They don’t seem to be able to cope with diversions at all, many times, ended up in the middle of nowhere after encountering the dreaded ‘deviation’ sign.

I agree that European towns/villages take more pride in their appearance with lots of flower boxes and beautifully kept roundabouts, you don’t see this much in the UK.

I’d agree about coming off the ferry too, straight into traffic congestion, but the depression also kicks in because the holiday is nearly over as well, but we live on an overcrowded island and the solution isn’t going to be easy.

I,ve noticed that you don’t seem to see many foreign m/homes in this country as you used to, the high cost of living and extortionate fuel costs probably account for this. (The cost of fuel in our country is one subject that does make my blood boil).

I could go on about ‘yob culture’ and ‘rip off Britain’, but at the end of the day it’s my country and we will always have a UK base to live in. However, when we retire, I think the majority of our time will be spent in Europe touring.

Sorry if this reply is a bit disjointed, but just wrote as I thought…(I know what I mean!).

Pete.


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## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

I can see this one will run!

Just to put a little reality into it. We all live here, so generally we experience everything, either first hand or relentlessly through the media. On the other hand, when you go on a trip, it is natural to try and go where it's nice - I usually do. How many 2 week trippers go to Paris, Marseilles or Narbonne suburbs as just a few examples. Have you seen the French Ardennes?? (Yuk!). The Belgian Ardennes are beautiful incidentally.
Try using the toilets on the Autoroute between Dunkirk and Boulogne if you can find one that is open or not full or has not been smashed up.
If you want a taste of how good the UK can really look, then go to the extensive Madrid shanty suburbs and try moaning to them about London, Birmingham or Manchester. The bulk of the rest of the city isn't much to write home about either, I couldn't believe I was in a Western European city when I saw it earlier this year as I sat in an endless traffic jam. 

If you are going to compare, you should do like with like. The French go home enthusing about the Yorkshire Dales, or Whitby or the Suffolk coast and think England is great because they haven't seen what you normally see (get the picture). As for Scotland and Wales, our German friends positively drool over them. 

I recently camped in Kent next to a Dutch couple who were almost embarrassingly complimentary about our country despite the fact that there was only one shower open on the site!

Incidentally, I love France, it's my favourite destination but don't you hate the miles of uncontrolled advertising as you approach any town or city. God forbid that was ever allowed here.

Steve


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

The ads is something I have seen and it does spoil the area although sometimes I think it is quirky interesting and sometimes it drives me mad looking for a particular sign out of millions. I can see where you are coming from SteveC as yet I have not booked two weeks in the slums of Madrid and will certainly stand corrected on that one. However, I thought I was comparing like with like in many ways...e.g. Compare Newquay with say St. Maxime which I think is of similar size although spelt wrong.
Newquay is full of loud mouth yobbo lager swilling yobo's and St. Maxime is a normal seaside town but clean and friendly and trouble free as far as I have ever seen. I have used this example because generally speaking this in my opinion pro rata UK seaside towns and European seaside towns. And where I have seen drunken louts in these places I have been embarrassed to see that they are English. In fact it seems to me that UK youth is incapable of going abroad without becoming drunk or drugged and showing off like some superior aliens.

But try as I might, I can only compare that which I have seen which is the difference between chalk and cheese and how can you compare Madrid slums with say Brixton. They are both places where govermments should be ashamed to let their subjects live.


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## 91021 (May 1, 2005)

peejay said:


> ...we live on an overcrowded island ...


No we don't. Trying to get onto a ferry for a given time, then it may seem we are but ther's tons of land and overall our population is not very dense at all.

Pusser - I think you are just getting old and grumpy - it comes to us all. You'll never find perfection but this place is the best in so many many ways.

Tony


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

I think you may be right Tony. I will be the Victor Meldrew of Bucks. rotest:


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Seems pretty crowded to me Tony,

Especially when i'm in the queue at Tescos (whatever happened to their 'one in front' policy?) or sat in my tenth traffic jam of the week (yes, lincolnshire gets jams as well!) and its only tuesday.

I think i know what you mean though.

Pete.


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## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

Got to agree with you about Newquay. Thank God they go there and not St.Mawes, Blakeney or Southwold.

I remember Newquay 30 years ago. How is it that it's been allowed to degenerate the way it has - what a shame that is. 

The French have their undesirables - they're just bad in a different way to ours. Try parking your M/H in the Perpignan to Narbonne strip anyway near the motorway and wait - they will find you! 

As for not respecting a queue - that's something we seem to have picked up from the continentals I reckon, the French in particular although the Italians seem to have impeccable manners generally.

Steve


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Overall I think this country had it all and a lot of good has been squandered and at present I cannot see a light at the end of the tunnel.

Talking about tunnels I went throught Monty Blancy in June and the tunnel is now almost futuristic with lights and good know what for everything. I also think that lorries are now escorted through in batches. They have a memorial at the French end which cheers you up just as you are going through. But what an awful way to die. Defies even imagination.


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## 91021 (May 1, 2005)

Pusser said:


> Overall I think this country had it all and a lot of good has been squandered and at present I cannot see a light at the end of the tunnel.


Oh come on! What is actually worse nowadays. Givvus an example.

Tony

PS: Getting ready to be shot down in flames and backtrack on this :roll:


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

I've just returned from a trip through northern Germany to the Czech Republic. Returning through southern Germany. 
We stayed on Stellplatz enroute.
The paragon of cleanliness that Germany used to be, has certainly changed!
Litter and graffitti can be found almost everywhere.

Our Island isn't so bad these days.

George


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## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

Yeah but don't you just miss the winter of discontent and then there were those evenings in front of the telly watching the miners fighting the cops. Those were the days.
Who was it that went into Suez all those years ago? - remind me. Gallipoli eh! - we used to know how to do it.

When I first started work 35 years ago, I can remember (older) people saying much the same.

Off now - not playing this one anymore. Got to go for a walk round the cesspool of Europe while the sun is still shining.

Steve


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

NHS = deterioation of expertise, cleanliness and caring. 
Education = Laughable. If you get your name right you go to uni
Transport = Railways laughable \ Roads in a state of disrepair
Standard of food in supermarkets = The Guardian reported just the other day that the goodness in vegatables is only one tenth of that found in gren grocers.
Fuel - The cost is outrageous penalising once again the less well off.
Crime = So common now that most is not even reported. If it is, police are only interested in serious crime or speeding offences.
Legal system - Not interested in justice but the money they make out of it.
Hence the number of appeals to make more money.
Sending youngsters off to war without the right equipment and they are heroes until such times as they come back with physical\mental problems then no one wants to know.
Our industry has been replaced by service industries.


What is good. The average UK citizen is hard working, generous and kindly. That's about it.


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## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

Jeez, you have got it bad haven't you.!

Between posts this afternoon, I drove to London & back on a good road that was every bit as delightful to drive as almost any on the continent. Okay -it was Saturday, but you also have to choose your days to drive on the continent. Ever seen the traffic jams in Belgium, Holland, Germany and yes - St.Maxime?
French roads are great but boy, do the French have to pay for them. I doubt whether we Brits would tolerate the level of taxation that they pay for their public services.

You gave a little clue to the origin of your angst - 'The Guardian'. It seems to be a feature of life that people's views are so coloured by the British press whose raison d'etre seems to be to rubbish anything and everything British. Your list is almost a straight lift from the favourite blah blah in the press

You mentioned the Police and speeding (a favourite subject of the newspapers) but I see precious little evidence of their activity with speeding anywhere I go. I wish there was a speed camera on the main road near my house. If you are looking for examples of deteriorating behaviour, then driving behaviour should surely be on your list. As for the continent, have you never seen the speed traps over there - far more extensive than here and they don't stand for all this nonsense about public relations (yellow camera's - what's all that about?) - they hide, you get fined, no arguments, money now!

I had my £1200 racing bike stolen in France 10 years ago, everybody on the site had their cars broken into by some nice locals. Despite the value of my bike, the friendly local Sgt couldn't even be bothered to write down that it was yellow, never mind take a description or investigate it.

Do yourself a favour - stop reading life from the newspapers. It's amazing what an improvement it makes to your perception of the country.

Steve


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## 91021 (May 1, 2005)

Pusser said:


> NHS = deterioation of expertise, cleanliness and caring.
> Education = Laughable. If you get your name right you go to uni
> Transport = Railways laughable \ Roads in a state of disrepair
> Standard of food in supermarkets = The Guardian reported just the other day that the goodness in vegatables is only one tenth of that found in gren grocers.
> ...


1: NHS - got its problems I'll agree - until people are willing to pay for it, it will continue to be mediocre - however it is many times better than it ever used to be. And much more costly to run keeping alive people who are now living longer. There was a report recently saying that in about twenty years time, the number of cancer cases will have trebbled. The papers went overboard with gloom and doom about why this is happening. The reason, that they all missed, is simple - its because people are living with cancer more, rather than dying from it.

2: Utter rubbish - I'm a part time uni lecturer - more than ever before people are going to uni and furthering their education. Look at the figures from even thirty years ago - the achievements are far higher. Standards are stricter now than they have ever been.

3: Transport - I don't ever remember a time it was good? How far are you going back?

4: Standard of food - may give you that one . But the variety has exploded into almost too much choice and if you want good food you can get it. Their is no excuse for anyone is this country to be malnourished any longer.

5: Fuel prices - taxation to improve other areas. May be better ways to raise the revenue. Big subject.

6: Crime - no different now than ever before.

7: Kids off to war - no change there. Scrapping the logistics core seemed a very strange thing to do and has caused many probs, I'll give you that. That's what civil servants getting involved does!

I think you are wearing bright red glasses looking back to the olden days. Nothing is perfect but things are one hundred times better now in almost every way.

As for comparing with Europe - I've lived in quite a few parts and am always glad to come home. There is no utopia.

Tony


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## 89095 (May 13, 2005)

> You mentioned the Police and speeding (a favourite subject of the newspapers) but I see precious little evidence of their activity with speeding anywhere I go


come to Shropshire, we have plenty of speed cameras and you never been to Nottingham?.... down one road we counted a dozen of the things.... seemed a bit silly as we crawled along at 10mph :lol:


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## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

Sorry but I live in a County that is regarded as one of the speed camera capitals of the UK and I don't regard them 'Police activity' that has any real effect on driver behaviour. Anybody who flies past a giant yellow box that can be seen from half a mile away has usually only got themselves to blame.
I would love the Police to mount speed traps (hidden, like the continentals do) on the road through my town where 60mph is the norm in a 30mph limit but they don't because of 'public relations'. 
If you talk about quality of life in a country, then what about the residents and pedestrians along that road (and many others) who are trapped by the noise and intimidating speed of selfish drivers.
People who rant about 'speed cameras' would be better employed mounting a meaningful campaign against poor driver behaviour.

Incidentally, I have been to Shropshire, it's a lovely County and an example of what is so nice about the UK.

Steve


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## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

TonyBuckley said:


> Pusser said:
> 
> 
> > NHS = deterioation of expertise, cleanliness and caring.
> ...


Tony, are you seriously saying that the entrance requirements are higher now that they were 30 years ago.

Sure, a great deal more people go to University now than they used, but surely this is because there are far more places and a much wider variety of courses.

I think it is a great mistake to offer University places to individuals of mediocre inteligence, and tailor the courses accordingly. We have a chronic shortage of skilled tradesman as a direct result of these policies.

When I left school nearly forty years ago it was very simple

Bright = University

Average= Aprenticeship

Below Average = Semi Skilled

Dull= Unskilled

There was however nothing to stop you moving up the ladder if you so chose.

Andrew


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Andrew

Tony's views are obviously biased, given his part time profession.

For me your summing up is spot on.

John.


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## 91021 (May 1, 2005)

androidGB said:


> Tony, are you seriously saying that the entrance requirements are higher now that they were 30 years ago.


No, I'm not saying that about the entrance requirements. They have reduced as there are now many more uni places. There are many kids who do not do do well at A level but are very bright but not ready for that level of exam at their age. There is not a direct correlation between A level results and being able to handle doing a degree. It is a poor definition of acceptance criteria into unis - lots of other factors.

The downside of this is that the drop out rate is much higher which is a waste for all concerned. Its a problem identifying those that would do well at uni at 18.

What I would argue has improved is the exit criteria of getting that degree. The courses are now much more strict in what has to be covered and how that assessment is performed. Years ago, if you went to some unis you were almost gauranteed passing the course whatever effort you put in.

As for trades, then yes I would agree we have a problem - but again a problem we have seen before - there was a general plumber shortage in the early 70's. Not sure why that one happened.

I think this is improving now - the government is finally accepting that some kids are better with their hands than their brains and opening up avenues for exploring trades at 14/15 rather than forcing them down the GCSE route - isn't this a sign of things getting better?

I have interviewed people who have obtained their degrees years ago, and also recent grads - there is not a lot of difference. People are people.

Tony


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## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

I don't necessarily agree with Tony but it may be that his views are based upon his greater first hand knowledge and experience rather than 'bias'. 

The world is so much more technical these days that more people need technical education. Teaching people how to use a lathe within an apprenticeship would not be of much use these days when high order IT knowledge skills, for example, are needed just to work in sections of the Police, Hospitals, the Forces, car design, just to name a few. Could be that more people need an academic training because our high tech society now needs them to. 

Our continental neighbours are also sending high numbers to University, I think.

Steve


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## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

Tony, thank you for that view it is interesting.

As you are in the "Business" do you happen to know the percentage of school leavers at 16 who are illiterate?


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## 91021 (May 1, 2005)

eurajohn said:


> Andrew
> 
> Tony's views are obviously biased, given his part time profession.
> 
> ...


Biased or informed?

I must admit to my original post being a little tongue in cheek and playing devil's advocate. I was a little pi**** :lol:

But, I was arguing from the point of view of things being different now compared to the 'old days'. I would maintain that things are better now than ever before - not perfect, just better.

If you want to go back to days of 'no blacks, no irish, no dogs', high unemployment and people being kept in their place and the general horribleness of the 60's and 70's then fine - your view.

I was only discussing this with a police friend t'other day who remembers the yob problem of the 70's with street violence and crime. He didn't think there was a lot of difference now apart from the drugs problems.

Tony


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## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

[quote="TonyBuckley

If you want to go back to days of 'no blacks, no irish, no dogs', high unemployment and people being kept in their place and the general horribleness of the 60's and 70's then fine - your view.

Tony[/quote]

Who was this comment aimed at?


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Tony I think crime has certainly got a great deal worse - ask any parent who has concerns about letting their kids go out to play. Not only has crime got worse, it is more horrific. Plus of course many more get away with it than did previously. Unless I am blinkered to the point of being blindfolded when I was a kid, rape, child murder, drug related murders, old people battering where virtually unheard of. Nowadays, it is almost impossible for a law abiding adult not to get done for some crime such as speeding, parking etc. 

I cannot believe either that the standards of education are higher than years ago. I have taken great interestes in my kids going to uni and the work they have to do. In essence, when I was young, A levels required a 7 day slog with no going out - now, I have seen my youngest not even hand work in, and yet, pass his exams swotting only the last week of before the exams. My other son did NVQ's and got his passes 3 months before he handed in his course work which was an intregal part of the exam. I think it is a joke. One thing that has not changed is the ridiculous amount of time students have off. The son at uni finished I think at the beginning of July. His next appearance at uni is in October.

I can see no reason why students who are not academically minded go to uni. I do know that at least one university which specialises in training for doctors will now not accept A levels and requires a seperate exam because of the low standards in A levels.

Transport .. As I remember, the big run trains were pretty punctual and it was also a matter of pride for the driver and fireman. Buses were frequent even though they arrived three at a time and most people then travelled on public transport. The tube trains were certainly reliable as were the long distance coaches. Furthemore, the standard of safety on the railway was far higher than now due to many years of fund removal by goverments prior to privatisation. With todays techonology, there is no reason to have any accidents on the railway.

And in those days the roads in France were terrible and in Spain virtually non existant. In Uk the roads were kept in good condition not just wiped with tarmac every so often.

I cannot see your post while I am writing this so I have probably missed a few points out. The NHS may be improving in some ways but it has a long, long way to go to get back to the cleanliness of wards, where we can go into hospital and not catch yet another disease, and the facilities that are now available are actually used on patients. Drugs are not by postcode which never happened in the past etc.

France is number one in the World Heatlh Organisation figures for best medical care. I cannot remember who is second but Spain comes third. We come fifteenth. I don't think we came fifteenth years ago.


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## 91021 (May 1, 2005)

androidGB said:


> Tony, thank you for that view it is interesting.
> 
> As you are in the "Business" do you happen to know the percentage of school leavers at 16 who are illiterate?


No, I don't. I must stress the 'part time' bit about being involved in education. I know my subject (which is IT) and lecture on that aspect alone. I am not involved in any decision making nor policy setting; I am very much on the outside of this.

But I would like to know how it is measured? I seriously doubt (gut feel) that it is worse now amoung native English speakers than it was then.

When I went through the system I was taught to spell using a system called ITA - all spellings were taught phonetically. 'Cat' was 'Kat' etc. It was a system that did not last long and it screwed me up for years! It was a very stupid idea and it went away. I had to work bloody hard to get away from ITA and spell like everyone else and it did hold me back. In fact, I am still bitter about it. But it did go away - things improved.

A lot of this comes down to how the press report things now. They are the true spin masters and if they can turn a mediocre story into an outrageous one, they will! That cancer story I mentioned before really really really annoyed me - here was a good story and the press spun it into gloom because good stories don't make good headlines.

I'm rambling now 

Tony


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## 91021 (May 1, 2005)

androidGB said:


> [quote="TonyBuckley
> 
> If you want to go back to days of 'no blacks, no irish, no dogs', high unemployment and people being kept in their place and the general horribleness of the 60's and 70's then fine - your view.
> 
> Tony


Who was this comment aimed at?[/quote]

No one in particular. Just a general observation.


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## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

There are several definitions of illiteracy, but the one used in connection with the figures I have seen is based on "not having the ability to read and write very well, and being aware of those limitations.

The figure for children leaving school who fit into that category is almost 20%.

I have also seen that it is the aim of this government to send 80% of school leavers to University.

Jobs are lost in manufacturing industry at an alarming rate.

Call centres (which now employ more than the British Coal, Steel, and Car industries put together) are being outsourced to India.

Yet unemployment continues to decline 

The county's borrowings are increasing rapidly.


How are these facts connected?


Quite simply, the Governments creation of jobs in the Public sector and it's fixation for having low unemployment figures.

Due to rising house prices, people are borrowing against the equity in their houses, and are treating themselves to holidays, new cars, conservatories etc. 

So there is a feel good factor, which is masking the poor performance of this Government


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## 91021 (May 1, 2005)

androidGB said:


> There are several definitions of illiteracy, but the one used in connection with the figures I have seen is based on "not having the ability to read and write very well, and being aware of those limitations.
> 
> The figure for children leaving school who fit into that category is almost 20%.
> 
> ...


What does 'very well' mean? That's not measurable. It could be based on anything and almost certainly not directly comparable to past years.

I think the government figure is 50% for kids going to uni - and that too is an indistinct measure. What is a uni? Which subjects are included? I'd agree that 50% is a stupid target.

Manufacturing is a different issue altogether - many places that are surviving cannot get the staff because the wages are so low - which they have to be, to be competetive globally. What can you do about this? Are state benefits too high? Are people's standard of living and expectations of such, too high? Forget India - China is going to changing the face of the world in the next few years.

Call centres being outsourced to non UK places is a disgrace - this is one area the government could and should do something about.

As for this government - I can't say I am particularly in love with them - but there again, there hasn't ever been a government that I have felt that way about.

Tony


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

I've got a bit lost but the 60's and 70's I think were some of the best years. Although I accept there was racism certainly in employment terms I know I and my acquaintances were all non racist and I am pretty sure our age group then, teens and early twenties were like minded. If I remember if was the "I fought in war" brigade who tended to be racist and still are I think. Today racism has been turned into an art form and there seems to be an absolute split between those that are racist and those that are not and I would say that is fifty fifty. The youngsters seem to me to be far more racist nowdays than before and a new type of racism I have seen is where some asians themselves show racism to all other races.

I have seen that the present government is considering bringing out a UK congestion charge affecting everyone by mileage and postcode. This should ensure that roads become less congested as pensioners, single parents with children and the less well off, will be kept off the road to make way for those with money.

In London the congestion charge is rated as a success and many times I have seen drivers interviewed for their opinion which is positive. However, I have never seen those who cannot drive in London anymore interviewed and asked for their opinion.


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## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

TonyBuckley said:


> What does 'very well' mean? That's not measurable. It could be based on anything and almost certainly not directly comparable to past years.
> Tony


Clearly it is measured and then a term is applied, which gives an indication to the general populus.

I would consider this term to mean having difficulty with everyday events, such as form filling, reading and understanding instructions etc.


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## 91021 (May 1, 2005)

androidGB said:


> TonyBuckley said:
> 
> 
> > What does 'very well' mean? That's not measurable. It could be based on anything and almost certainly not directly comparable to past years.
> ...


Well there you go then - I'm illiterate. I spend hours pouring over my tax return and damned if I'm ever sure I've done it right. :lol:

You see what I mean about things that are 'measured' - one person's yardstick is different to someone elses and there will be grey areas.

I cannot accept that 1 in 5 of school leavers fall into this grouping. If you find the real stats and show how this is measured then I'm moving in with Pusser and I'll start making placards with him 

And its only a meaningful measure if it can be compared to past times and tracked.

Tony


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## 91021 (May 1, 2005)

Pusser said:


> In London the congestion charge is rated as a success and many times I have seen drivers interviewed for their opinion which is positive. However, I have never seen those who cannot drive in London anymore interviewed and asked for their opinion.


The congestion charge made me get out of my car and get the train - wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. This was the intention of the charge. And it meant I could have a drink after work! .

However my wife, who is a nurse, would have had to pay the damn thing on a regular basis were she still working in London.

We moved out of London not that long after the charge started so I don't know what difference it made to my area.

Perhaps if we can get together at a rally we can really talk about this over a few beers. 

Tony

PS: As for the car mileage charge - I don't that will ever happen - some half arsed idea from a minister that caused a couple of headlines. I have family in Jersey and they pay no car tax - just a bit more on petrol (which is still a lot cheaper than here).


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## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

I note a few comments in the above posts about what the Police do now as compared to what they used to do, in particular with the perception of hounding the motorist.
I was a young copper in a provincial market town in the 'golden years' of the early 70's. In line with our national training, we beat bobbies were sent out on nights to remorselessly stick tickets on cars for things that today's cops don't even realise to be offences. Motorist persecution was a far greater issue then than now but it wasn't such a cause celebre and people weren't so opposed to being told that were doing something wrong. I also recall that Traffic cops used to go out on patrol and ruthlessly chase drivers for speeding offences. We used to have monthly targets for breathalysers and things. These things just do not happen any more as the Police simply do not have the time or resources. The motorist 'persecution' issue is a modern myth in much the same way that motorhome gassing crime is on the continent. Plenty of 'reports of' in the newspapers but no evidence.

I also the remember the nightly violence in the town where I worked and recall that women were raped and kids were abused but the whole issue was treated differently then - covered up within society if you like.

I also remember the 70's being years of strikes, social discontent, power strikes, rubbish being piled up in the streets, crappy Austin Allegro's, people being unable to bury their dead due to Council & hospital workers strikes etc, etc. 

Were things really so much better then? Seems to me that society is very quick to criticise these days without considering the increased demands and changes.

Try Feng Shui. (joking by the way).

Steve


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Great - I tried Feng Shui and now all I have is a toilet and a fridge stacked with Ozzie beer. I suppose you do have a point because as I get older I seem to only remember the good bits and the bad bits disappear. A good thing really as it makes your life look better than perhaps it really was. I think TonyC idea of a rally where we can chew over all these things sounds good to me and the more I drink the more right I become.

Well, my m\h goes in for its missed PDI tormorrow so I am hoping that all goes well and we can actually use it for the first time next weekend. I shall feel less of a fraud once I have a few miles under my belt. I have only about 10 faults which seems quite modest over the new ones I have read about although it has to be said that some of the faults may be simply one fault related.

We shall see. Say La V.


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## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

Well good luck with that - always makes me nervous trusting my pride & joy to a garage.

You're joking about the rally surely? A few Brits, some beer and discussions about education, politics, speed camera's and the French. Sounds like a recipe for an eventual demonstration of Brit hooliganism to me.

Steve


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Is motorhome rage a recognised phenomenon :?


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

You should ask Peejay.
He was showing signs of it after reporting on the condition of his new motorhome when he picked it up.


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Aaaaw! I stumbled on this post a bit late in the day!

As I read it I was saying to myself "Yeah!" and "Nah!" in about equal measure, just waiting 'til I got to the end to have my say. Too late.

Now all I'm left with is the promise of a beer at some future meeting - *when's it gonna be*?

Great post, Folks!

Barry


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## 88870 (May 10, 2005)

Pusser said:


> ... when I was a kid, rape, child murder, drug related murders, old people battering where virtually unheard of.


I think this has increased, but so has coverage of it in the Media which is why we are more aware of it now, not just here but all over the world.



> I cannot believe either that the standards of education are higher than years ago.


I don't think they are higher, it is just different. When i was at school, maths was all calculator orientated. When the teacher gave out slide rules once to see how we would cope there was much muttering of ' ... what a waste of time, its so slow!'. Many short cuts are taken these days but then again there is much more to learn too. Nearly every course has an element of computers in it somewhere. I don't think it is better/worse, it is just trying to encompass more and things change so fast now that many courses just cannot keep up.



> The NHS may be improving in some ways but it has a long, long way to go to get back to the cleanliness of wards, where we can go into hospital and not catch yet another disease


Some of this is down to the bugs of years ago evolving and becoming immune to many antibiotics, cleaners etc. The more advanced we get, the bugs just keep beating us! Methinks that nature likes to keep us in our place 8O. Then again, won't deny that perhaps one of two of the bugs could come from completely inadequate hygiene levels :roll:

Well, there's my tuppence worth ... but then again I can only comment on the last few years as I am still a spring chicken compared to some of my more learned friends on here. When I hit 60, I may come back and reopen the post with further observations :lol:

Leigh


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