# Seat belts in two berth motorhome



## HARRYH (May 18, 2005)

I have a two berth Swift Sundance first reg Oct 2007 with the two parralle
side seat habitation. Belts to driver and passenger seats only.
My wife and I have no problem,
My daughter, her husband with a small baby would like to have use of the unit for a short holiday.
Could they legally use the MH or would the seatbelt law prevent such use?
As the law stands is my MH limited to travelling use to two persons?
I have tried to get an answer by searching the forum but am still confused.
Harry


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## CaGreg (Mar 28, 2007)

Well if they can decide which of the lives they would be happiest to put at risk, there should be no problem. 
Seven years tomorrow since our middle child died due to no seatbelt! I know I do labour this point sometimes but it speaks for itself really.

Ca and Greg
parents of the beautiful (forever) 17year old Emma.


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

> Ca and Greg
> parents of the beautiful (forever) 17year old Emma.


This post should be a sticky since it answers this FAQ.
Well done for posting it Ca and Greg.


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## oldhenry (Dec 29, 2008)

What a terrible thing to happen. I think of the years when we all sat in cars/vans hanging on to whatever on corners, and shiver, how lucky we are to be alive.
my advice is sell the van now and buy one with proper safety fittings, if you cannot afford it then they go to hotels/BB, better than being like CaGreg.


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## 96706 (Nov 13, 2005)

No way should anyone be travelling without restraint! Even sideways lougne seats are a no no. 

How could you live with yourself if anything happen that caused a death or serious injury due to a careless act like that.


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## Patrick_Phillips (Aug 17, 2006)

**** said:


> No way should anyone be travelling without restraint! Even sideways lougne seats are a no no.


An alternative would be to get seat belts fitted to the side seats. Provided they are done properly and meet all the current specs (they should be checked at MOT time, but sadly often aren't) the seats can be made safely useable.
Don't expect it will be cheap to do if it can be done at all but if so it might be much cheaper than a van change.

Patrick


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## philoaks (Sep 2, 2008)

Sorry to disagree Patrick but I don't think that there is anyway that you can make a sideways facing seat safe. A three point seat belt is designed to protect you whilst you are in a forward facing position, not sideways.


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## 96706 (Nov 13, 2005)

May be worth checking with Swift, to see if they think it's possible to fit side belts. Might also be worth placing your enquiry in the Swift Motorhome forum or other Technical areas elsewhere on this site, if you've not already done so.

I guess from your recent habitation problems, you won't be contacting Marquis of Preston?


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## Patrick_Phillips (Aug 17, 2006)

philoaks said:


> Sorry to disagree Patrick but I don't think that there is anyway that you can make a sideways facing seat safe. A three point seat belt is designed to protect you whilst you are in a forward facing position, not sideways.


My understanding is that sideways seats require full harness (belt and two shoulders) but I am suggesting professional advice.


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## carol (May 9, 2005)

philoaks said:


> Sorry to disagree Patrick but I don't think that there is anyway that you can make a sideways facing seat safe. A three point seat belt is designed to protect you whilst you are in a forward facing position, not sideways.


I have seen this done - but not just fitting a seat belt. Roy's Le Voyageur has the two small side settee and the way they change to be two forward belted seats is very good..... I bet it would be costly.... maybe if Roy sees this thread, he may have a picture to post of them done.... or there may be a photo on the Le V web site, I don't know.

Otherwise I would say NO...don't do it....

Carol


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## loughrigg (Nov 10, 2008)

Patrick_Phillips said:


> philoaks said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry to disagree Patrick but I don't think that there is anyway that you can make a sideways facing seat safe. A three point seat belt is designed to protect you whilst you are in a forward facing position, not sideways.
> ...


If anything, I would think that a full harness belt would actually be more dangerous.

Think of the stresses involved - you are travelling forward with belted passengers on the side facing seats. In an emergency stop, the part of the passenger's body that would be unrestrained and would continuing moving at full velocity (sideways) would be the head from the neck up.

On second thoughts - don't think about it!!!!

Mike


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## carol (May 9, 2005)

I thought there might be a picture - here is one

http://www.levoyageur.fr/html/equipements/

Carol


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## gromett (May 9, 2005)

My opinion for what it is worth, is if a manufacturer says it is a 2 Berth then it is suitable for 2 adults... End of story.

You can adapt it as much as you want, you can use great logic and fantastic theories, you can use the best engineer available to do the work. But at the end of the day will you forgive yourself if something happens to you like "Ca and Greg"?

I do not have children (I wish) . But if I did there is absolutely no way I would take a chance with a bit of "solid engineering" to fit them in and there is no way I would put my kids in a side facing seat.

Karl


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## UncleNorm (May 1, 2005)

Well said Karl! I agree entirely! :wink: 

It was back in October 2007 that AuntieSandra and I went hunting for a new MH at the NEC. 

Just in case we ever carried passengers, we would need 2 more seat belts. So, if when we entered a MH at the NEC and found parallel seating, we simply turned on our heels and left.

We found Our Coral on that visit. Perfect layout. And we have had those extra passengers that we anticipated, our 2 grandsons on one occasion, our daughter on another occasion, and my nephew, niece in law and Big Sister on a third occasion. Yes, we have a total of five seat belts, including one on a seat which faces backwards! 

It's foolhardy to even THINK about having no belts or belts on side-facing seats.


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## Jagman (Feb 16, 2008)

Side facing seats should never be used for travel and seatbelts make no real improvement to safety, comments about danger of sideways movement of upper torso and particularly the head are spot on. Furthermore, in an impact the upper body body of side-facing person would be free to pivot sideways i.e. forwards and backwards in terms of vehicle movement, by its whole length which would almost certainly bring the side of the head rapidly and probably fatally into contact with something hard.

'Crew bus' layouts in minibuses banned for school use years ago after tragic accidents proved the vulnerability of side facing passengers.

Quite a lot of posts about seatbelts over the past year, mostly prompted threads dealing with 'child seats'. Consistent conclusion: don't do it.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Agree totally with most of the points above, side-facing belts are not recommended in any situation due to the strains they impose; lap belts only twist the body if there is an impact , and the spine does not like being bent sideways. Full harnesses placed sideways would impose a big strain on the head and neck if there was an impact, I suspect whiplash would result VERY quickly, and probably much worse.

The Ford Transit ambulances that I used to drive had sideways facing restraints on the second trolley for "walking wounded". They were banned from use about 10 years ago within the organisation. Reason; they were not safe.

If retro-fitting (or even trying to) extra belts do ensure you use a professional company - they must be firmly anchored to the vehicle chassis (not the AlKo extension I believe) - most fitters won't take that risk as they would not be "type approved" for that fitting.

Remember also that if you do have them fitted you must inform your insurance company since you are altering the vehicle, and potentially the risk of a persoanl injury claim - generally your insurance only covers the number of people desctibed on the V5, in the case of our 4 berth Kontiki there are only restarints on the front passenger and driver's seats - that is all that the insurance company covers too.

The most frequent, and sensible, advice from so many people is don't do it - the risk is too great and if there was an accident you would never forgive yourself for allowing it.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi legally I believe the baby must go in a safety seat and that can be the front passenger seat.

See here: http://www.safekids.co.uk/NewCarSeatLaws2006.html

I am not advocating one way or the other, but a sense of proportion should be kept here, the actual risk of a fatal accident is minuscule, and if no belts where fitted I would happily travel in the back.

50 odd people have just be killed in an air crash but that doesn't stop us flying. 3000 people were killed last year on the roads, but we still drive.

I believe as adults its up each of us to decide whether we should travel with or without belts, however I do believe children should be strapped in, although I would allow them to take it off to go to the toilet.

Olley


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

The other issue here is one of insurance. Whenever I have asked I have always been told that cover will only be for those passengers occupying seats with *manufacturer* fitted seatbelts.
Gerry


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## 38Rover (Nov 9, 2006)

The third person here is a baby and should be in an appropriate baby seat it would not be difficult or costly to anchor such a seat to the floor facing backwards ( most young baby seats do) or forwards fixings ideally through chassis or if through floor then a plate say 150x150 on the underside.For fastenings use at least 5/16 HT bolts and climbing shackles etc.
Babies are not heavy(say up to 30lbs) and do not create the same inertia as adults


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Strewth Rover, are you psychic?

I was thinking about this one in bed last night, and thought of exactly the same solution.

It would need some sort of approval from "I don't know who" or the insurance company would go into orbit.

I would suggest contacting a long established Kit Car manufacturer for advice. They will know all about the rules and regulations which apply to modified vehicles.

There are (or were?) some who made small motorhomes, so they should certainly be able to help - especially with the quick release arrangement that would be necessary for removing and re-installing the seat when on site.

Hope this helps, but . . .

*. . . for heaven's sake don't do ANYTHING without professional advice, and approval of the completed installation.*

Dave


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## 38Rover (Nov 9, 2006)

There are companies that fit child seats they may be worth approaching?


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## CaGreg (Mar 28, 2007)

One of the problems I see with a discussion like this is that it muddies the water. The thinking goes along the lines of....
'it's definitely not safe don't do it... it might be possible to do this though.... maybe if you fitted xyz ...' and then the idea that it isn't really 'that dangerous' and it 'might be worth taking the miniscule risk' sets in.

If something is going to take a great deal of trouble to do, then the likelihood is that there will be people who will either not have the money or the conviction to do it, or will get a shoddy job done. I think that MHF has an obligation to stay on the side of ultimate safety, not withstanding the fact the 'we are all adults here and can make up our own minds'.
If advice is asked for in a matter of life and death safety then we must be careful where our speculation takes us to.

I'm going off now to light a candle on Emma's grave, that is my bottom line.

Ca


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Ca

Couldn't agree more - hence the line in bold red text at the bottom of my post.

It just isn't worth taking a risk - so get professional help, or don't do it at all.

Dave


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## HARRYH (May 18, 2005)

Hi
Thanks for the replies
Harry


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## colonel (Oct 11, 2008)

I have to say where personal safety is concerned I'd only go with what has been fitted by the vehicle manufacturers. If it were possible to safely fit restraints for more passengers, why wouldn't they have done it?

If the MH was designed for only two additional seat belts apart from the driver and front seat passenger in it's current configuration, then stay with that. It's approved, your insurers will be OK everybody happy and reasonably safe.

Beyond that, you're taking a risk which is for most people, too great.


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