# The weight plate, where does it need to be?



## Glandwr

There is a sticker next to the steps and hab door on our Hymer (a LHD import) that gives the wts, gross wt, max axle wt etc. etc.

Is it a legal requirement under UK vehicle legislation to display these on the exterior? I ask because it is starting to deteriorate and peel off. Could I just do away with it? Is the same information available elsewhere? I have looked but couldn’t find it.

Dick


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## rayrecrok

Handbook?.

ray.


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## philoaks

On my Autotrail the weight plates are under the bonnet on the front panel where the bonnet catch is mounted.

There are 2 plates, one is the original Fiat Ducato plate and the second is a stick on one fitted by Autotrail after the conversion with the amended weights on it.

This second plate sounds like what you have on the door frame. Is there a similar one under the bonnet too?

I don't know that the positioning is a legal requirement but presumably the presence of the sticker is.


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## Glandwr

It's an import so that it would have had to satisfy the German regs. not ours when new. It is in full view on the side of the van and is starting to look a bit tatty, not discretely on the door frame. I suppose I could peel it off and stick it under the bonnet if that satisfies our regs.. As I said I have looked everywhere for another and there is no mention in the handbook.


Dick


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## rayrecrok

What model and year is the Hymer?..

ray.


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## Glandwr

S740 2003 (reg here 2004)


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## erneboy

Have a new one made Dick http://www.vin-plate.co.uk/any_car_van_plate.html fit it under the bonnet.


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## HurricaneSmith

I don't think it can be a legal requirement to have the weights on external display Dick.

The original Fiat plate on my van is covered by a piece of removable plastic inside the driver's door, and the amended Autotrail converter plate is riveted in the stepwell, on the inside of the habitation door. 

I can't see Autotrail getting the position wrong.


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## peribro

I'm pretty certain it doesn't have to be external - think about cars where they are either on the door frame or under the bonnet. My current van is German and has it on the outside but I have subsequently uprated the weights and put the new plate on display under the bonnet. If the current one is peeling then you will need to get a new one as I think it is a requirement to have one - as well as being convenient if stopped and asked to prove your permitted weights.


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## EJB

Both of mine are under the bonnet as per _philoaks._


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## Mrplodd

I can confirm what others have said.
There is a LEGAL REQUIREMENT for the plate to be permanently affixed to the vehicle (the location is NOT specified in UK legislation, thats why they are usually under the bonnet or inside the vehicle where it doesnt get effect by environmental factors like sunlight) 

It must be clearly legible (for obvious reasons) If yours is not then I would suggest you contact Hymer for a replacement. Provide them with as much detail as possible, most important will be the vehicles VIN No. (a photo of the current plate would also be a very good idea to show it is deteriorating)

It has been suggested that you peel it off and put it somewhere else. You will not be able to do that, if you attempt to remove it the sticker will tear apart (its meant to do that as a security safeguard to stop someone removing it and then "cloning" your vehicle) 

You cannot use a "Homemade" plate !! It MUST be one produced by the maker/converter/upgrade company (like SVtech etc) 

Its odds on that no-one will ever actually check the plate but if you dont have it you simply know what will happen dont you? probably at the roadside in a foreign country where you dont speak the language on the first day of a long bank holiday 

Andy


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## A14GAS

My SV tec uprated plate(sticker)is inside drivers door post as per their instructions when they uprated the vehicle.
The original was next to hab door step.


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## rayrecrok

My Hymer has the payload weights on the skirt on the outside near the habitation door, it is also a plastic sign.. I think it is there for easy access to see what the the pay load is, I do not think it is a legal requirement, maybe there for convenience only, On mine it gives various vehicle weights for my model with from memory payloads from 1.5 tons to 1.65 tons. I work on the 1.5 tons I have never been anywhere near it unless I put a pack of bricks in the garage.. I have a photo of the plate somewhere but of course when you need it I can't find it on my hard drive.... I am surmising this is what the OP is on about..

ray


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## rayrecrok

Is this what you mean?..









ray.


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## Glandwr

Yep that's it Ray the legal max. wt. constraints although in our (hymer) case it also has other info as well.

Dick


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## Mrplodd

Ray

See my previous post in respect of legal requirement.

EVERY vehicle must have a plate displaying tyhe max Gross, axle and train weights applicable to THAT vehicle. 

Andy


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## rayrecrok

Mrplodd said:


> Ray
> 
> See my previous post in respect of legal requirement.
> 
> EVERY vehicle must have a plate displaying tyhe max Gross, axle and train weights applicable to THAT vehicle.
> 
> Andy


Yep I am sure there will be one nailed on some where in the engine compartment, it is just the OP asked about the sticker on the outside of the van, that is what I was replying to..

ray.


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## Mrplodd

Ray

I think we may be at slightly cross purposes here.

If it's like the Hymer I once owned the ONLY RELEVANT plate ( the one that showed the correct, post conversion weights) was the one on the outside, so it's not a convenience thing as there wasn't one anywhere else.

There will be the original base vehicle manufacturers plate probably under the bonnet but that won't show the uprated weights which apply once Mr Hymer has worked his magic So it won't show the correct figures!! If there is no plate anywhere else then that's the one the enforcement officer would use, not a good thing!!

Andy

For the info of anyone who is curious what the numbers mean
The first number is the vehicles max gross weight. 4500Kg
The second number is the max TRAIN weight (MH + trailer max all up weight 5200Kg) 
No. 1 is max front axle weight 1850Kg
No.2 is max weight for axle 2 1500Kg
No.3 is max weight for axle 3 1500kg (it's a Tag axle MH!!) 
NONE of the above figures can be exceeded legally.
It is normal for the sum of the axle weights to exceed the max gross weight, it enables you to distribute the load around to suit you.


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## nicholsong

Andy

Just for clarification please.

What is the legality of having two plates?

One might be the base vehicles plate, one the converters and/or an upgrade by the converter or e.g. SVTECH.

If there has been an upgrade above 3500kg and an appropriate plate attached, but subsequently the vehicle is being driven by somebody with a 3500kg restricted licence, should the higher-weight plate be removed? Or is it a matter of fact as to what weight the vehicle is at the time? If so what is the procedure to establish that, other than at a VOSA check point?

Geoff


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## erneboy

nicholsong said:


> Andy
> 
> Just for clarification please.
> 
> What is the legality of having two plates?
> 
> One might be the base vehicles plate, one the converters and/or an upgrade by the converter or e.g. SVTECH.
> 
> If there has been an upgrade above 3500kg and an appropriate plate attached, but subsequently the vehicle is being driven by somebody with a 3500kg restricted licence, should the higher-weight plate be removed? Or is it a matter of fact as to what weight the vehicle is at the time? If so what is the procedure to establish that, other than at a VOSA check point?
> 
> Geoff


The plated weight as shown on the most recent plate is what counts and for that plate to be valid it has to agree with the details on the V5. So a driver restricted to 3500 max could not legally drive a vehicle plated at more than that regardless of it's actual weight.

Having more than one plate is common as changes are made by converters and possibly later by others like SV Tech but each time a new plate is added (correctly and legally) it supersedes the others which should be left in place and the V5 must be reissued to agree with the information on the plate.

The only reason you would establish the weight of the vehicle would be to ensure that you aren't overweight. Deciding who is entitled to drive a vehicle it is a matter of comparing the driver's licence to the information (MAM) on the plate. Not holding the correct licence would be one offense and being over weight would be another unconnected one, Alan.

Sorry, just noticed that your question was directed at Ploddy Geoff.


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## nicholsong

I am posting this as a separate question to the one above I addressed to Andy, because he can only be expected to answer questions related to UK law.

Our MH is currently plated above 3500kg, so if transiting Austria, Switzerland etc.one would be subject to higher toll charges.

By judicious loading - mnimum water, 1/2 tank diesel it would be possible to run under 3500kg before entering those countries.

How could one legally do this, when already on tour? Obviously one could remove the higher weight plate, but to get DVSA to issue a new V5C could take weeks. Is it sufficient to notify DVSA of the lower weight by e-mail, keeping a copy? Would foreign authorities accept this?

Subsequently how would one reverse the process? The plate is no problem since the higher-weight plate could simply be re-rivetted back on, but what about DVSA and the new weight they had recorded? - would they reverse it back to the higher weight on receipt of another e-mail or require new evidence?

Geoff


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## erneboy

Replating requires a legal process to be followed. Emailing won't cover it, Alan.


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## nicholsong

erneboy said:


> The plated weight as shown on the most recent plate is what counts and for that plate to be valid it has to agree with the details on the V5. So a driver restricted to 3500 max could not legally drive a vehicle plated at more than that regardless of it's actual weight.


Alan

I understand that, but my question was should one remove the higher-weight plate if a restricted(3500kg) driver is driving?

It gets more complicated, in that is it then illegal for the driver to drive the vehicle if the V5C has not been changed? Or this that an offence committed by the Registered Keeper, not the driver? If so it might be quite difficul, evidentially, for DVSA, or other enforcement agency, to prove the plate had been removed prior to the change of V5C.

You point to the plate being superceded, but they are not dated so how does anyone know which plate is the later(est) - I have 3.

Geoff


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## erneboy

nicholsong said:


> Alan
> 
> I understand that, but my question was should one remove the higher-weight plate if a restricted(3500kg) driver is driving? Geoff


No you can't do that. You have to go through the process of plating it down.



nicholsong said:


> It gets more complicated, in that is it then illegal for the driver to drive the vehicle if the V5C has not been changed? Or this that an offence committed by the Registered Keeper, not the driver?


Not legal unless V5 and plate agree. The driver would be responsible for driving any vehicle he's not entitled to drive and probably whoever did it would be responsible for having tampered with the plates.



nicholsong said:


> You point to the plate being superceded, but they are not dated so how does anyone know which plate is the later(est) - I have 3.
> 
> Geoff


Each time the plate is changed there is a letter from a competent company (dated, as replacement plates may be too) accompanying the new plate. The letter verifies that the vehicle will remain within it's technical and design capabilities when the new plate is applied. You submit the letter to DVLA as evidence of that so that they can generate the new V5, Alan.


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## nicholsong

Alan

I am sure you are correct, as you have operated your own fleet of vehicles.

However the 'legal process' as operated by DVLA (now DVSA) does not seem to follow the same lines.

My MH was a Fiat chassis, converted in Germany and given a converters 'plate' both those plates stated 3500kg.

It was issued with a V5C by DVLA, presumably on information provided by the dealer but showing no weight in para 'F.1 Max. permissible mass(exc. m/c)' but an entry in para '[Y] '3850 KG GROSS'. This was not questioned, nor, changed on re-issue in 2009 on my acquiring it.

So, the V5 C did not match the plate.

Who committed an offence? The converter, the dealer, DVLA, the seller, the first keeper etc.?

Regarding the driver found driving a vehicle where the plate matches his licence(3500kg) but the V5C does not, is the driver, maybe with no access to the V5C, guilty of an offence or the Keeper or both?

I accept that the authorisation for change of weight has to be submitted to DVSA to increase a weight, although not necessary to decrease it, but are you suggesting that one has to retain it and produce it if necessary?

To me te whole thing is a minefield just in UK - never mind what the foreign authorities make of it(e.g. most international registration documents do not even contain para [Y]), and a lot of it comes down to the DVLA entering coreectly anything they are told or entering incorrectly.

Geoff


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## erneboy

Up and down both Geoff, the same form http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/small_..._to_change_the_weights_it_can_carry/7893.html

If the plate doesn't match the V5 and you can show that you submitted the paperwork I assume it would just be an error on the part of the DVLA in the issuing of the new one, though I'd have thought that a prudent person would check the details and send it back if they are incorrect. I don't know whether there's an offence committed if the keeper hasn't noticed but I'd think possibly not.

I don't know how it would go if a driver who couldn't drive a vehicle over 3.5 got embroiled in that. No idea, Alan.


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## Mrplodd

If you don't have a licence to drive a particular class of vehicle it's the DRIVER who commits the offence. They would ALSO be guilty of no insurance as a clause in ALL insurance policies is 

" Providing The driver holds, or has held and is not disqualified from holding, a licence to drive that class of vehicle" 

The OWNER would also be guilty of permitting the use of it with no insurance!!!!!

There is NO lee-way on either offence, it's absolute.

For all practical purposes it is the plate that any enforcement officer would use HOWEVER it's a requirement to carry your V5 whilst abroad and should said enforcement officer check that as well I would suspect that's the information he would base his actions on.

As far as "removing" a plate from a vehicle for your own convenience that is a pretty serious offence and it carries some pretty hefty penalties and YES weight plates is something that is looked at very closely to check they have not been tampered with. ANY suspicion they have been tampered with would result in a very thorough investigation. It's simply. not worth the risk, 

I would suspect your vehicle would be confiscated if the authorities abroad found you had removed a plate in order to reduce your liability for toll charges etc. They do get touchy over money!!


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## erneboy

And how about plating up and down Ploddy?


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## Mrplodd

Not sure what the question is.

A vehicle can be played up or down BUT on each occasion a new plate must be produced ( by companies such as SVTech) and affixed, any previous plates MUST REMAIN.


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## erneboy

Mrplodd said:


> Not sure what the question is.
> 
> A vehicle can be played up or down BUT on each occasion a new plate must be produced ( by companies such as SVTech) and affixed, any previous plates MUST REMAIN.


That was it mainly Ploddy. Would the DVLA need to be informed of these changes and if so could they be informed by email so that unimportant downward changes in the plated weight could have immediate (or at least very speedy) effect as people journeyed around do you think? Ta, Alan.


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## Mrplodd

DVLA would most certainly need to know. They would require detailed documentary evidence from a professional company (such as SVTech or similar) 

They would most certainly NOT just accept an email !! They would likewise require the return of the V5 in order to issue a new V5 with the amended weights.

Andy


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## nicholsong

Mrplodd said:


> DVLA would most certainly need to know. They would require detailed documentary evidence from a professional company (such as SVTech or similar)
> 
> Andy


Andy

I cannot understand what documentary evidence could be produced or required to declare a weight of 3500kg if the weight had been above that before.

On the point of foreign authorities inspecting a V5C, would they not just look at the para F.1 and ignore para [Y] which seems to be a UK addition as it is not on other countries documents? I am also not sure how many of them would understand the term 'Revenue weight'

Geoff


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## erneboy

I know you're asking Andy Geoff.

They'd probably want to verify the unladen weight at the very least in order to prove that the vehicle could actually come in and be used at under 3.5 tons, Alan.


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## erneboy

Here's what SV Tech say about it: http://www.svtech.co.uk/motorhomes.html

Effectively it needs verification from an approved source.


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## nicholsong

erneboy said:


> Here's what SV Tech say about it: http://www.svtech.co.uk/motorhomes.html
> 
> Effectively it needs verification from an approved source.


What is an 'approved source'?

Approved by whom?

SVTech do not state that there is any such requirement.

There is no document which confirms 'unladen weight'

Other posters have said that they have downweighted their vehicles with DVLA/DVSA themselves.

SVTech state that they, not being Registered Keeper' of a vehicle, cannot complete the form for downplating.

As far as I can ascertain, dealers supply information to DVSA for first registration and it is accepted at face value. Certainly for my vehicle it was registerd with the only weight as 'Revenue weight' which was in no way supported by documentary evidence that I possess nor a weight plate.

I think the whole process is a can of worms and that the V5C is an unreliable document with information from unreliable sources, processed by unreliable staff.

Geoff


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## erneboy

Did you read this from the SV Tech page I linked to Geoff?

Downrates on motor-homes are dealt with by the DVLA and are not a matter for VOSA.

After we assess your vehicle setup and check the weights *we supply you with a weight variant plate and letter of declaration*. The plate is unique to your vehicle and states the new operating weights. *The declaration sheet we supply is used to have your logbook and, where required, tax disc changed.* Since the vehicle is not registered in our name we are unable to deal with the whole process for you. Don't worry, we will supply you with the necessary forms to deal with the DVLA and we are only a phone call away should there be any queries on the day of change.

I've emboldened some text.

Maybe the DVLA will just take an owners word for it, I don't know, Alan.


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## peribro

For downrating it is my understanding that DVLA will "take the owner's word for it" although they may want to see a photo of the new weight plate.

Uprating, for understandable reasons, is a totally different matter and DVLA will want appropriate confirmation that the vehicle has been uprated in accordance with its design weights. Otherwise they may require that the vehicle is tested and examined by VOSA.

SVTech is recognised and approved by DVLA and as such DVLA will not require a vehicle to be examined if SVTech has confirmed that the uprating is in accordance with the design weights.


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## erneboy

So the information on the SV Tech web site could mislead people by mentioning a letter of declaration since anyone reading it may well conclude that it is a requirement and consequently use their services for which they would have to pay? That's a pity if it's correct.


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## peribro

erneboy said:


> So the information on the SV Tech web site could mislead people by mentioning a letter of declaration since anyone reading it may well conclude that it is a requirement and consequently use their services for which they would have to pay? That's a pity if it's correct.


I've only ever uprated so I can't be absolutely sure on this. However I think you still have to make a declaration to DVLA that you have changed the weights on the vehicle and obviously SVTech will provide you with the appropriate form of wording as well as the new plate. I presume that their charges will be less though than for an uprating since for an uprating their technical knowledge and expertise is being provided to confirm that the uprating is within the design weights of the vehicle. I don't see that this is required for a downrating. I'm also sure that DVLA will tell you what an acceptable form of wording is for a weight change so all you then need to do for a downrating is source the new plate.


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## Mrplodd

To PROVE the vehicles (lowered) max weight you will require a new plate. 

DVLA will, I am certain, require proof that a) a new plate has been issued for that vehicle ( it will show the VIN number) and b) that the new plate has actually affixed to the vehicle ( a picture of said plate which will be a self adhesive type rather than a riveted on variety) BEFORE they will issue a new V5 to show the lower MGVW. As SVTech allude to on their website, they will issue a new plate and a letter confirming the change. Why would they do that if DVLA don't need/want it??

I could be wrong but, knowing how such agencies function, I find it very hard, if not incredible, to believe they would just accept an email from an owner. 

Perhaps if anyone has actually been through the process they could post on here. Alternatively perhaps someone would like to ask DVLA directly?


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## nicholsong

Andy

I have been on to DVSA directly this morning and ......surprise, surprise, they could not answer the question about documentation, other than saying one needed a 'certificate', but could not name it, from the Vehicle Standards Agency and a reference to Dft. They also said a 'certificate' from VSA was necessary for downplating 'to ensure the vehicle met the necessary standards'- at this point I fell over laughing/screaming

I contacted Dft, as the sponsoring Government departmant of the DVSAgency, who will get back to me. 

I believe the VSA has been merged into the old DVLA(now DVSA) so we are going round in circles? - with the inevitable conclusion !

I shall report back.

Geoff


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## erneboy

Good work Geoff.


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## nicholsong

Meanwhile, waiting for a reply from Dft 

I researched further on Alan's link to 'Findlaw'

That turned up reference to form VGT10

This is a VOSA form and applies to 'Goods vehicles' so in my opinion is not applicable to Motor Caravans (Despite the fact that those over 3500kg are described as Private Heavy GOODS Vehicles' - how to confuse the tax-paying public in one easy lesson?

Don't worry the 'dog with the bone' will not give up. 

It might be the Dft Legal Dept. next, and if no luck, the Treasury Solicitor.

Geoff


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## Mrplodd

I await an update with considerable interest. I will put a fair sum of money on "Them" requiring all sorts of documentation.

Andy


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## rayc

nicholsong said:


> I cannot understand what documentary evidence could be produced or required to declare a weight of 3500kg if the weight had been above that before.
> 
> Geoff


SVtech say "Downrates on motor-homes are dealt with by the DVLA and are not a matter for VOSA.
After we assess your vehicle setup and check the weights we supply you with a weight variant plate and letter of declaration. The plate is unique to your vehicle and states the new operating weights. The declaration sheet we supply is used to have your logbook and, where required, tax disc changed."

DVLA will not readily accept an owners request to downplate without a letter of declaration from an authority because they want to be assured that the new weight is viable.


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## erneboy

nicholsong said:


> What is an 'approved source'?
> 
> Approved by whom?
> 
> SVTech do not state that there is any such requirement.
> 
> There is no document which confirms 'unladen weight'
> 
> Other posters have said that they have downweighted their vehicles with DVLA/DVSA themselves.
> 
> SVTech state that they, not being Registered Keeper' of a vehicle, cannot complete the form for downplating.
> 
> As far as I can ascertain, dealers supply information to DVSA for first registration and it is accepted at face value. Certainly for my vehicle it was registerd with the only weight as 'Revenue weight' which was in no way supported by documentary evidence that I possess nor a weight plate.
> 
> I think the whole process is a can of worms and that the V5C is an unreliable document with information from unreliable sources, processed by unreliable staff.
> 
> Geoff


It seems to be thought that SVTech may be misleading people Ray.

Not my experience with them but there we are. Though to be fair it's hard to see how the new weight wouldn't be viable if the vehicle had previously been plated at the same weight, Alan.


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## cabby

Can I ask why you do not just get on with it by getting SVTech to issue you with a new weight plate and paperwork to go with it and then forward this onto the DVLA together with the existing logbook, oops sorry V5c.Remembering of course to keep photo copies.Why are you delving into a can of worms when it is not needed.
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick.....yet again.>>

cabby


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## Jean-Luc

Ah shur, it's tough for you guys :smile2:

Over here on The Ould Sod our equivelent of the DVLA usually issue our equivelent of your V5 with 1kg in the (f.1) field so there is no official record of the vehicle GVW (well there is, it's 1 kg ).

One can therefore show the appropriate plate, if there is more than one, to any one with an interest in such matters to suite the occasion :wink2:

One particular example I know of is an Auto Trail with the Merc plate showing 3,500kg on the drivers seat base and the Auto Trail plate showing 3,800kg under the bonnet. If the dad is driving (C1 licence) its the Auto Trail plate, if its the son (B) licence it's the Merc plate.


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## Mrplodd

Jean-Luc

It's the same scenario with all MH's (or anything else that has been up/down rated) All of the plates must be visible even if it has been superseded.

Your idea works well UNTILL an enforcement officer decides to take it to a weighbridge, if the son is driving (B licence) then you will probably be looking at a hefty fine for being over 3500kg! If then try and use the 3850Kg plate he is in the smelly for having no licence (and as a consequence no insurance as he doesn't have a licence for that class of vehicle) No insurance is a VERY serious offence and the penalties reflect that.

Andy


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## Jean-Luc

Mrplodd said:


> Jean-Luc
> 
> It's the same scenario with all MH's (or anything else that has been up/down rated) All of the plates must be visible even if it has been superseded.
> 
> Your idea works well UNTILL an enforcement officer decides to take it to a weighbridge, if the son is driving (B licence) then you will probably be looking at a hefty fine for being over 3500kg! If then try and use the 3850Kg plate he is in the smelly for having no licence (and as a consequence no insurance as he doesn't have a licence for that class of vehicle) No insurance is a VERY serious offence and the penalties reflect that.
> 
> Andy


I agree with all you have said.

However if the son is driving and is checked (a) he may be under the 3,500kg and (b) if he is over and 'owns up' to the 3,500kg plate and gets done for over the 3,500kg it's a lesser offence than having no licence and its consequences.

BTW how would being over the GVW as per plate but not exceeding axle weights be viewed, particularly as there would be no danger element because the vehicle would be operating within the capability of its tyres and suspension.
I'm sure many motorhome are operated in that condition. It's noted on the Michelin website in their bit about the reason for developing the Camper tyre and also in paragraph (2) *HERE*


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## Mrplodd

Jean-Luc

You are assuming that any enforcement officers will not look for any additional plate within the vehicle, or ask for sight of the V5 if you are on the continent. From personal experience a fairly thorough search is made to ascertain that the correct weight plate is being used. (No-one wants to look an idiot when they get to court trust me!) Also don't forget that such information will be held on the Police National Computer (PNC) database in the UK .

There will probably not be any danger if son is driving BUT he will be committing the offence of driving a vehicle of a class that he does not hold a licence for and, as I stated earlier, he CANNOT hold insurance to drive that class of vehicle.

You/he can of course take that chance but you need to be aware that the pair of you could be in line for some hefty fines. In addition any conviction for an insurance offence will have a severe impact on any future premium charged by an insurance company for ANY vehicle.

Your opinion of whether it's safe or otherwise counts for nothing. It's what the law says that will count if/when you get caught. 

Your choice.

Andy


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## Jean-Luc

Mrplodd said:


> Jean-Luc
> 
> You are assuming that any enforcement officers will not look for any additional plate within the vehicle, or ask for sight of the V5 if you are on the continent. From personal experience a fairly thorough search is made to ascertain that the correct weight plate is being used. (No-one wants to look an idiot when they get to court trust me!) Also don't forget that such information will be held on the Police National Computer (PNC) database in the UK .
> 
> There will probably not be any danger if son is driving BUT he will be committing the offence of driving a vehicle of a class that he does not hold a licence for and, as I stated earlier, he CANNOT hold insurance to drive that class of vehicle.
> 
> You/he can of course take that chance but you need to be aware that the pair of you could be in line for some hefty fines. In addition any conviction for an insurance offence will have a severe impact on any future premium charged by an insurance company for ANY vehicle.
> 
> Your opinion of whether it's safe or otherwise counts for nothing. It's what the law says that will count if/when you get caught.
> 
> Your choice.
> 
> Andy


See post #48


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