# Help & advice sought for proposed power upgrade - Please



## Imbiber (May 11, 2007)

Hi,

I'm looking for some advice on a proposed power upgrade to my present configuration, with a view to spending 4+ days (at a time) without EHU at Aires throughout the Alps this winter.

Basically my current configuration is 2 x 95amp batteries (linked in parallel) + a solar panel. I haven't got a clue as to the size of my SP but would guess it is no bigger than 80W?

There are four of us in total (2 kids), however, we are not that 'power-hungry' just DVD's playing on an Avtex, evening lights, heating and charging of games consoles etc.

I had initially considered upgrading to 3 x 110amp batteries in parallel + the solar panel. However, there is no space in the locker for a third battery and my dealer has advised that charging 330amps would be a bit of a strain on the alternator and leisure battery charger?

Therefore, it has been suggested that I upgrade my present configuration to 2 x 110amp + the present solar panel and then have an independent bank of 2 x 110amp batteries linked to a new solar panel complete with a switch over wired into the van.

The new battery bank would have to be gel batteries (apparently) so venting outside would not be required.

This sounded a fair option to me but my only concern really is the reliance of the new battery bank on solar charge only? What size SP should be considered for this not to be too much of a problem?

Overall I would greatly appreciate any thoughts and views on this proposal as to it being the best solution available / or alternative solutions offered.

I am looking at replacing our current halogen lighting to LED's before we depart so that should help our usage.

I'm also not that convinced a generator is our best solution at this stage either so would like to resole the problem with batteries and SP first.

Thanks in advance everyone for your time,

Regards

Andy


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## time-traveller (Apr 23, 2007)

Imbiber said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm looking for some advice on a proposed power upgrade to my present configuration, with a view to spending 4+ days (at a time) without EHU at Aires throughout the Alps this winter.
> Would you be static for 4+ days at a time?
> ...


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## time-traveller (Apr 23, 2007)

"Imbiber" wrote

Hi,

I'm looking for some advice on a proposed power upgrade to my present configuration, with a view to spending 4+ days (at a time) without EHU at Aires throughout the Alps this winter.
Would you be static for 4+ days at a time?

Basically my current configuration is 2 x 95amp batteries (linked in parallel) + a solar panel. I haven't got a clue as to the size of my SP but would guess it is no bigger than 80W?

There are four of us in total (2 kids), however, we are not that 'power-hungry' just DVD's playing on an Avtex, evening lights, heating and charging of games consoles etc.
Actually DVD's + TV take quite a lot of current (amps)

I had initially considered upgrading to 3 x 110amp batteries in parallel + the solar panel. However, there is no space in the locker for a third battery and my dealer has advised that charging 330amps would be a bit of a strain on the alternator and leisure battery charger?
I don't think so - the alternator wouldn't be charging at 300 amps. This refers to the battery capacity as 300AHr - not the same thing at all. The extra capacity merely means that the alternator would be charging (probably at its maximum rated output) for a longer period - but that shouldn't be a problem) 

Therefore, it has been suggested that I upgrade my present configuration to 2 x 110amp + the present solar panel and then have an independent bank of 2 x 110amp batteries linked to a new solar panel complete with a switch over wired into the van.
Personally I wouldn't like that arrangement

The new battery bank would have to be gel batteries (apparently) so venting outside would not be required.
I would prefer the new sealed Elecsol batteries

This sounded a fair option to me but my only concern really is the reliance of the new battery bank on solar charge only? What size SP should be considered for this not to be too much of a problem?
Big !

Overall I would greatly appreciate any thoughts and views on this proposal as to it being the best solution available / or alternative solutions offered.
My personal solution would be the addition of a Stirling battery-to-battery charger with possibly an extra 80w SP wired in parallel with the existing SP and twin 110v Elecsol sealed batteries

I am looking at replacing our current halogen lighting to LED's before we depart so that should help our usage.

I'm also not that convinced a generator is our best solution at this stage either so would like to resole the problem with batteries and SP first.
Couldn't agree more !

Thanks in advance everyone for your time,

Regards

Andy

Sorry about the double post - I'm still trying to get the hang of this thing!


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Well, with your stated requirements and solutions considered I think:

1) You are brave
2) Who's the dealer giving you that advice?

Your energy budget is awful. You have to get more energy into your van and solar won't do it.

Dave


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## time-traveller (Apr 23, 2007)

DABurleigh said:


> Well, with your stated requirements and solutions considered I think:
> 
> 1) You are brave
> 2) Who's the dealer giving you that advice?
> ...


Yes - it's a pretty tall order, isn't it? Perhaps an Efoy .... ?


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

I think the first thing to do is get a handle on how big your energy requirements (Loads) actually are.

Read my solar panel article >HERE< and download the spreadsheet >FROM HERE< concentrating on the first part ie the load. Then size the battery accordingly then decide how to keep it charged.

I concur with time-traveller DVDs and TVs represent a considerably load.


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

If your main concern is your energy budget during the winter, you need to be aware that your solar panel(s) will not be able to produce much power. You have the problems of the lack of daylight, the possibility of snow covering all or part of them, and the angle of the sun is low, reducing the efficiency of the panel (unless you have an automatic or manual inclination system).

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'd be thinking about a generator  

Gerald


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## Imbiber (May 11, 2007)

Thanks for all the replies so far...didn't realise it was going to be such a headache!

TT - I do intend to be static for the period of time but if needs must we'll move on to another aire - or just drive down the mountain and back up again!

When I said DVD's playing I would consider perhaps 1 or 2 DVd's at most per day...would this have the same drastic effect?

I checked the e-display in the van with each 12v appliance running seperately and the TV drew 2amps while playing the DVD.

The small halogens (which we will be replacing with LED's) drew 1 amp each and the Alde heating pump drew 2amps at start up but then dropped to 1.5amps.

So therefore do I need to work out how much of these I will be using over the 4 days and arrange a power configuration to match as near as possible?

Would 3 x 110amps in paralel and an additional 80W SP linked to my exsisting one be a better (more cost effective!) solution than that which is proposed by my dealer?

Thanks all once again

Andy


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## wilse (Aug 10, 2007)

Hi fella

This is an interesting post.

I recently had two 100amp elecsols and a Kyocera KD135w solar panel.
I'm finding that in good sunlight I can get 35amps in and day! [South of France]
It's wired to charge the leisure batteries then the starter battery.

My control panel is a schaudt digital panel, which has a useful feature of giving you a rough idea of how many amps you are using at any one time. [Yes it's approximate]

TV [15" LCD] 3.5Ah
Halogen light 1.2Ah
Water pump 3.Ah

Our truck has 14 lights, [3 fluorescent] so the current draw is big.

Also even though we have 200Ah of battery, the control panel only lets you use the 80% safe amount of each battery, so in reality we only have 160Ah to use!

So you really need to work out your power requirements first... are you all spending all day in you truck with lights/TV on?

A much better alternative would be to junk the power hungry devices i.e. lights in favour of LED's. I haven't yet, as I wanted to see how the panel copes through winter first before changing all bulbs.

We have a Honda EU10i as a back-up which we used on our last truck when skiing.
It's quiet and you can get an LPG kit which makes it's quieter and smell less [it doesn't smell a lot anyway!].

We went to eastern france and it was cloudy more days than it was sunny, so panels wouldn't do a deal... that said we when to andorra years ago and the weather was hot and sunny everyday.

PS

I may have this wrong but when our truck has the engine running the max charge the batteries will get is 18Ah, so you'll need more than a quick drive up and down the mountain.

PPS don't forget batteries are less effective in the cold!

w


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

There is no substitute for doing the sums properly.

Lots of power stuff you haven't mentioned yet.


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## Imbiber (May 11, 2007)

Thanks Frank,

I'm working through your spreadsheet this am!

Forgot about the Water Pump etc!

We'll be out of the van most of the day (I hope) so don't envisage using much power then, just evening times and first thing on a morning.

At the moment we can do Friday night through to Sunday night with our present set-up although the display in the van is down to 12.0 by that time.

I foolishly thought it would be just as simple as sticking a couple more batteries on and off we go.... :?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Andy,

I commend you on your parenting skills and would love to meet your children  I cannot conceive of many who when not skiing and cooped up in a van when it is cold and dark outside would willingly and contentedly limit themselves to 2 hours screen time a day.

In the scenario you paint you have to take the energy with you. People don't drive for hours and hours around the Alps just to charge batteries. You would need to take this long - even under hookup you need ~7 hours to fully charge empty batteries. Solar won't do much for you. 

It sounds like you won't have high power demands; if you did you would also have to deal with suppressed terminal voltage in those temperatures.

Dave


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

I tend to agree with DABs and it will end up as a generator but once we have the figures we can give better advice. From what you say and if (and its a big if) your batteries are in good nick you are using around 90-100Ahr during the 3 days.


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## Imbiber (May 11, 2007)

Thanks Dave,

I,m working on Frank's spreadsheet, but my Fridge on Gas doesn't show what draw its taking off the batteries? I presume there must be some somewhere?

Kids can go outside and build snowmen in the dark if it gets that bad :wink:


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Hi;

A laymans two pennarth...

I'm in a similar sort of boat but with only two of us our power requirements are not quite as great as yours and we tend to stay max 2 days at a time before moving so I have upgraded from 2 x 80ah gels to 2 x 110ah lead acids and intend to fit a sterling battery to battery charger with am toying with the option of an 80w solar at a later date for summer top ups.

In your circumstances maybe a sterling B2B would help for boosting the batteries when you do move between sites? I'm sure Dave/Frank will have their views good or bad about that.

I also found that my old gels (dimension wise) were just as big as the larger capacity lead acid batteries so you might be able to get a substantial battery power upgrade if you switch to 2 largers lead acids, get the dims from tayna.co.uk and work out what does/doesn't fit in your lockers.

Definately worth swopping all your halogens for leds, done that, fairly expensive but well worth it for the power saving.

If that gets discounted by the experts then its looking like the dreaded generator might be the only way  

Pete


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Not when they are tired from skiing they won't. They want to veg out like Mum and Dad! 

You are gradually coming across the devil in the detail on energy budgets - estimating duty cycles and knowing what consumptions are small enough to ignore isn't easy from a clean sheet!

Personally unless you have missed any larger load items I'd stick to MAXIMUM daily usage of TV, DVD, heating (fan, circulation pump) and lighting combined with MAXIMUM numbers of days put in order to calculate battery Ah needed. Then ensure you don't go below 50% of the batteries, that they are in good nick, and not too old. But most of all realise, if you go with a large battery bank, you will probably charge at a rate no greater than ~35 amps from the alternator with other fan heater, lighting and wiper loads, so don't even dream that your batteries get refreshed when you turn the key.

Dave


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## fdhadi (May 9, 2005)

Not sure this makes much difference to your calculations but the Burstner A747 has the Alde heating system and not blown air.

Another thought, make sure all electrical items are switched off and not left in standby mode


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## safariboy (May 1, 2005)

Have you considered the extra mass of the extra batteries? It needs to be taken off your payload and with 2 children you must be quite close to the limit.


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## fdhadi (May 9, 2005)

safariboy,

The Burstner A747 has a payload of 1250kg.


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## teensvan (May 9, 2005)

Hi.

You will not get much power from your SP on the roof during winter. Best if you go down the route of a 2 Kva genni. No need to buy more heavy batteries. We run our genni for between 15 to 30 mins a day when on aires cooking via the microwave. So while cooking you are also charging the batteries through the on board charger. This will put in a charge of around 20 amp. 

steve & ann. ---------- teensvan.


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## safariboy (May 1, 2005)

fdhadi said:


> safariboy,
> 
> The Burstner A747 has a payload of 1250kg.


Sorry - I am used to out swift at 500kg and I know that many vans are less than this.

I suspect that for your purpose a generator is the best solution.
We have installed LED's on four of the lights and find them excellent and they now can give an excellent light. We prefer the softer colour LED's the white ones are very harsh.


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## Imbiber (May 11, 2007)

Thanks everyone for their valuable input.

I've utilised Frank's excellent spreadsheet and calculated my daily usage.

On a conservative basis my total amp hour daily requirements will be in the region of 60 Ah per day.

Included in this I've allowed for 10 hours at 2amps for the Alde central heating, but I'm sure it doesn't draw this amount all the time?

So on these calculations it would seem I need somewhere in the region of 240 Ah to survive the duration...

Best solutions advise please?

Regards

Andy


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

So in order to not go below 50% remaining capacity for battery life considerations, that is a battery capacity of 480Ah, 4 to 5 batteries-worth. 

That gets to the end of the 4 days, then what? 

Dave


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

I think that for the first time if you have double checked all your maths then I would advocate a generator. Dometic TEC 29. Have the LPG coversion if you wish. Then a Stirling fast charger so that you don,t have to run the genny for too long. But please be considerate of any neighbours and only run it when you don,t have any.

BUT

Would not chosing a location where EHU was availlable be the best answer?

Many aires include (including some I have visited in the Burgandy region) a 16 amp EHU for a couple of Euros for 12 hours. You could fully charge a set of batteries from these. Do your research before you travel would be best.

C.


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## inkey-2008 (May 24, 2008)

The guy who owned our 747 before us used it for sking and parked it there for months on end
His set up was 2 elcsol batteries 540 amps
and a 3.8kw genny and two solar panels.I do not think the SP added much. You will have to run the heating 24/7. He fitted blown air from an Eberspacer.
He was also on EHU but that could not be relied on.
You will need to keep the under floor as warm as the van or your water tanks will freeze.

Have you weighed your van mine was very close to the Max before putting anything on it. As he had fitted so much Stuff to make life comfey in the cold. 

Andy


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## Imbiber (May 11, 2007)

DABurleigh said:


> So in order to not go below 50% remaining capacity for battery life considerations, that is a battery capacity of 480Ah, 4 to 5 batteries-worth.
> 
> That gets to the end of the 4 days, then what?
> 
> Dave


Back home or onto pastures new?

I know what you mean though!

That's a fair amount of battery that needs recharging choose where we go :roll:

Look's like a genny then :?


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## Imbiber (May 11, 2007)

CliveMott said:


> Do your research before you travel would be best.
> 
> C.


Thanks Clive

Ideally we'll leave Calais and travel down to Gerardmer in the Vosges, there are 2 Aires here one next to the slopes and one in town with services.

After a couple of days there we envisage travelling down to Les Saisies (Alps) to the Aire there and spend the remainder of our trip (4 days(ish)) next to the slopes without EHU.

After that we'll be travelling back home.

Initially I'd thought just get a genny, but the idea of onboard power appealed to me more than the genny.

However, it seems that on board power is not quite as easy as you think it is :roll:

It would seem I should perhaps look at getting a couple of slightly bigger batteries and then induulge in a genny!


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

The decision maker is the climate and season you are holidaying in.

Good luck
c.


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