# Inverter installation instead of 12v stuff...



## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

I was thinking of getting 12 volt stuff (TV, digibox etc.) but have now decided that I would probably prefer to install an inverter.

My main reason is the availability of the stuff that I want to use.

So, I hope you can all help me with my installation via the forum, of course 

I already have a brand new inverter. It is a Skytronic one that is rated at 1000w continuous - 2000w surge.

I am hoping to use this inverter to power the following:

TV (probably LCD)
Sky Digibox
Freeview Box
DVD/HDD Recorder
Infrared distribution box
Possibly a Scart Switcher

Now, I know I can get 12 volt versions of some of the above but I want to use 240v units so please resist the urge to try and change my mind. I want the choice of kit that staying 240v will give me.

Firstly, will an inverter as described be suitable power wise? I don't know the individual ratings as I don't have them yet. Guideline advice will do.

Now the scond part...

I plan to install the inverter 'under the bonnet' so to speak and this is where my leisure batteries are located. I have two brand new Elecsol 125 amp batteries. I will run a wire from the inverter up the side of the winscreen into the cupboard at the side of the TV. It will have a multiplug type end to provide enough sockets.

Now to do a simple installtion I could just relocate the inverters on/off switch to the dashboard. However I seem to remember from our boating days that inverters must be off whenever the engine is started. So with this simple installation the onus would be on me to make sure that I switched it off whenever I started the engine, went on EHU or started the generator.

Can I somehow wire it up so that whenever I started the engine, went on EHU or started the generator the inverter would switch off?

The engine starting should be easy, just connect the remote switch through an ingition live but the other two are more problematic.

I hope you lot can help. You usually can 

Regards
Bryan


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

hi Bryan their is no need to turn the inverter off when starting the engine. If you only have a multiplug on the end of the lead, why are you going to turn it off when on EHU or with the genny running? Wired like that you will always need the inverter on to run the telly etc.

Olley


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Bryan

I agree with your logic, all our entertainment kit is 240v .. 21" TV, sat digi box, DVD etc etc etc .. 

Off hook up I use a 600watt Mobitronic inverter and a 6 way power block which plugs into either the inverter supply or the 240v mains socket .. and on occasion another 4 way for the laptops and phones. 

No need to turn off the inverter when engine or genny is running, Chaz often watches DVDs on the move ..


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## Jean-Luc (Jul 21, 2005)

Hi Bryan,
'Under the bonnet' can be a cold wet/damp place when parked up, a breeding place for condensation, and subject to driven spray and water when on the move in wet weather, not the best place to install mains voltage kit. 
By the way, I know you have a large battery reserve, but the inverter itself will use up a significant few amps as it delivers your mains supply. My own option is to maximise 12 volt stuff and only use the inverter for stuff which in mains only. This makes the best use of what amps I have on board.

regards
Colin


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Bryan,

Provided you take care of Colin's concern about siting to avoid spray, there is little wrong with your proposals. I power my TV equipment off a small dedicated inverter. 

1) Don't worry about the inverter being off when you start the engine.
2) Yes, relocate the on/off switch to the dashboard and switch it off when you are not using your entertainment equipment.
3) But do consider buying a £20 150W modified sine-wave inverter instead, and keep your Skytronic for more high-power uses.

The reasoning behind the last is that for an RV you are not blessed with huge reserves of leisure battery power, and given the entertainment equipment will have many hours of use, it makes sense to power it in an efficient way. Efficiency wise there is nothing wrong with inverters rather than dedicated 12V equipment (indeed an inverter powered a dual-power TV I had more efficiently than direct off 12V!), provided the inverter isn't too big for the job. For the sake of £20 you can get a right-sized one.

Dave


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

hi dave, 

Have been following this thread with interest,same requirements for myelf,forgive my ignorance but puzzled by your "provided the inverter isnt too big for the job"comment.Why does the size matter.I have a 1000w modified sine wave inverter that I am about to install,are you saying that it is too big to run the tele? If it were the only thing powered Iwould agree, but it isnt. 

thanks tony.


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## andyman (Aug 31, 2006)

The bigger the inverter the more power it will use just to do its job, i have a 1000 watt and that pulls a couple of amps running the fan and standing still. For the Flat sreen TV i use a 75 watt one that is a cig lighter plug with a 3 pin socket on the end. 
One thing I have found is CRT TV's don't like to run on inverters I think its the high start up current that stops them comming on


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Tony,

Size matters in all things motorhoming and beyond, so don't expect inverters to be different 

Have a read here and further down that thread:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-195626.html#195626

And because Nuke's persistent Outdoor Bits advertising hijacks decent links, I'm giving you the Victron one he bu..ered up again:
> VicXron tech note <

Dave


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

dave, 

Much clearer now,thanks, 

tony


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

olley said:


> hi Bryan their is no need to turn the inverter off when starting the engine. If you only have a multiplug on the end of the lead, why are you going to turn it off when on EHU or with the genny running? Wired like that you will always need the inverter on to run the telly etc.
> Olley


Good point about always needing the inverter on. I missed that point 

I have definately been told that inverters should be off when STARTING the engine (as opposed to whilst engine is running) but I never understood why. Your (and Jims) comments lead me to believe it will be fine leaving the inverter on whilst starting up the engine.



ScotJimland said:


> Off hook up I use a 600watt Mobitronic inverter and a 6 way power block which plugs into either the inverter supply or the 240v mains socket ...no need to turn off the inverter when engine or genny is running, Chaz often watches DVDs on the move ..


And you can START the engine whilst the inverter is on with no ill effects?



Jean-Luc said:


> Hi Bryan,
> 'Under the bonnet' can be a cold wet/damp place when parked up, a breeding place for condensation, and subject to driven spray and water when on the move in wet weather, not the best place to install mains voltage kit.


Good point, the problem I have is that the inverter has a fan. Loacting the unit under the bonnett will minimise the noise from it. The other option I can see is behind the dash but the noise may be a concern there.

I wonder if some sort of enclosure would protect it under the bonnet?



DABurleigh said:


> 1) Don't worry about the inverter being off when you start the engine.
> 2) Yes, relocate the on/off switch to the dashboard and switch it off when you are not using your entertainment equipment.
> 3) But do consider buying a £20 150W modified sine-wave inverter instead, and keep your Skytronic for more high-power uses.


I have a small inverter bought from Aldi (150W cigarette plug type) and when I tried to use it on my current TV it could not power it. Now my current TV is a 21"CRT so is that simply because it wanted too much oomph to start up?

Will a small cheap inverter as you describe be able to power all the items on my initial list?



DABurleigh said:


> ... I have a 1.6kW sine-wave inverter...powering all mains socketes when not on hookup...


---The above quote taken from a similar thread---

Can I ask how you have wired the inverter to power the whole van and do you use the big inverter when neccessary and just your entertaiment one at times when that is all you need?

Thanks to all for your input, it's really helpful 

Bryan


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

andyman said:


> One thing I have found is CRT TV's don't like to run on inverters I think its the high start up current that stops them comming on


Probably because the inverter is undersized, as you say there is an inrush on start up for the degauss.

Our 21" CRT TV and sat digi box run from a 600w inverter, no problem.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Bryan,

Yes, a 150W (which is silent - no fan - so site where convenient but not too far from batteries) should power your listed (LCD TV) entertainment equipment, especially as all those items won't be working at their rated powers simultaneously. It is always worth checking the power specs of your equipment, but try it for £20 and return it to Maplins if it doesn't. I've run a 14" CRT TV plus various boxes off a 150W inverter no problem. But I make no claim for adequate inrush capacity for large CRTs.

A 150W inverter at full whack would be pulling 13 Amps - you wouldn't want to be taking more than this out of your batteries for hours on end anyway, especially once you add to this separate lighting consumptions, etc.

If you read to the end of that referenced thread (page 2) you will see more details about my inverters wrt wiring into the mains sockets. If you want to try a DIY route read:
http://www.motts.dsl.pipex.com/INVERTER.htm

Dave


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi Brian wiring your inverter in via a relay is a complicated and IMHO unnecessary. The only time you will need the inverter switched on is when you are off EHU or on the Genny. The genny almost certainly has a Auto changeover switch already fitted to disconnect the EHU. so you don't need to worry about it.

That just leaves the inverter and EHU which must not mix. and a relay is one way to achieve this, a better way in my opinion is as I have done mine.

The inverter sits next to the batteries keeping the 12v leads as short as possible, the 230v output is run to the electric compartment and terminated in a blue socket, when I unplug the EHU I simply plug it in to the blue plug and all the 230v and 110v circuits are live. This method is cheap, simple and foolproof. I also have a MCB to turn off the 110v tranny if I need. 

Like you are proposing, I have fitted the remote on/off switch for the inverter on the dash. 

Something that does surprise me is that you don't mention whether you have a 110v inverter fitted when the RV was made to power the yank telly. The chap who did my conversion simply fitted a 110-230v tranny next to it to run our tellys. I have now disconnected this and run a 230v feed to the telly. 

Olley


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

DABurleigh said:


> Yes, a 150W (which is silent - no fan - so site where convenient but not too far from batteries) should power your listed (LCD TV) entertainment equipment... If you want to try a DIY route read:
> http://www.motts.dsl.pipex.com/INVERTER.htm


Thanks for the link Dave, Interesting project. I'd fancy a go but it is out of my comfort zone! 8O

When you say a 150w not too far from the batteries...

In my cupboards next to the TV I have a 12v cigarette socket. Is that too far? Should I loacte the inverter under the dash and run a mains cable upto the cupboards and stick a 13amp socket in there with a multiplug off of that?

Regards
Bryan


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

olley said:


> The inverter sits next to the batteries keeping the 12v leads as short as possible, the 230v output is run to the electric compartment and terminated in a blue socket, when I unplug the EHU I simply plug it in to the blue plug and all the 230v and 110v circuits are live. This method is cheap, simple and foolproof. I also have a MCB to turn off the 110v tranny if I need.


Hi Olley

I like this idea, as you say simple and foolproof. 
How do you remember to switch the fridge to gas or do you just switch off the MCB to the 110v tranny ?


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

olley said:


> Hi Brian wiring your inverter in via a relay is a complicated and IMHO unnecessary. The only time you will need the inverter switched on is when you are off EHU or on the Genny. The genny almost certainly has a Auto changeover switch already fitted to disconnect the EHU. so you don't need to worry about it.
> 
> That just leaves the inverter and EHU which must not mix. and a relay is one way to achieve this, a better way in my opinion is as I have done mine.
> 
> ...


Olley, I like your solution. Basically your RV Is on hookup, provided via an inverter from your batteries. When you turn your genny on is automatically changes over to that supply.

It is probably overkill for us at the moment. I only have two 125 amp batteries for leisure use and if I wanted to run the high power stuff I would turn the genny on.

I am currently thinking only of the entertainment stuff mentioned in the OP but I do fancy a bank of batteries and the solution you have implemented. Other considerations for me are the external hookup connector which is halfway up the side of the RV and is an american connector :?

I think I'll go for a fanless 150w as advised. I have looked on Maplins website and they have this one:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=48722&&source=14&doy=19m5

But I cant see if it is fanless.

Regards
Bryan


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Yes it is fanless. Here is the 150W one:
http://www.dc-ac.com/sp-150.htm
Which doesn't say, but the 300W next one up states it has a variable fan:
http://www.dc-ac.com/sp-300.htm

As to siting/ 12V cable lengths:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-30084.html#30084
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-149788.html#149788

When running the van off an inverter, automatically or manually, one way or another, you have to deconflict/switch hookup, genny, battery charger, fridge, electric water heater, electric space heater, etc.

Dave


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi Brian Sorry didn't explain, why I said all the 110v, with only a 1800watt inverter I only meant the kettle, toaster etc. not the a/c or m/w.
Like you if I want the a/c on when off EHU I run the genny. 

If you are only intending to power the TV etc. then I think DABs suggestion of a 300w inverter is probably your best bet.

Olley


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi DAB yes I do have to make sure that the electric water heater is off, the fridge is on gas and the battery charger is turned off. Got no space heater yet, But scotjimland had some nice panel heaters fixed to the walls in his. Another job to do maybe. :lol: 

What I need is an autosensing device to turn of various items when it senses modified wave form, small and under a tenner. Don't suppose you can come up with anything? :lol: 

Olley


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

DABurleigh said:


> Yes it is fanless. Here is the 150W one:
> http://www.dc-ac.com/sp-150.htm
> Which doesn't say, but the 300W next one up states it has a variable fan:
> http://www.dc-ac.com/sp-300.htm
> ...


Thanks for the link to spec sheets.

I am going to go for the dedicated inverter for the entertainment kit for now. I *may* revisist the 'whole van' option another day but to be honest I probably won't. 

Bryan


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

olley said:


> If you are only intending to power the TV etc. then I think DABs suggestion of a 300w inverter is probably your best bet.
> Olley


Hmm... Dabs actually said a 150w, not a 300w. Do you think a 300w would be better or did you just double up by accident? :lol: 

The other issue I have is the location for the now decided dedicated inverter. I know it needs to be close to the batteries but how close?

In my cupboards next to the TV I have a 12v cigarette socket. Is that too far? Should I loacte the inverter under the dash and run a mains cable upto the cupboards and stick a 13amp socket in there with a multiplug off of that?

Regards
Bryan


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

The difference in efficiency between a 150W and 300W is neither here nor there. The real advantage of the 150W is fanless. So it depends where you site it. You can site it wherever you like; you just have to ensure the 12V cables are thick enough. How thick is thick? You need to run the numbers through the link(s) I gave in the earlier post.

As to switching Olley, my preference would be to keep things simple as you have them, but perhaps include a battery monitor/alarm which can automatically alert you to unexpectedly large 12V consumption.

Dave


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi Dave I have a battery monitor, so I can keep an eye on battery consumption, and now I think about it I believe you can set up alarms from it. But for what I have no idea, Will have to check the paperwork. 

Olley


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## mike800966 (May 1, 2005)

*Auto inverter switching*

Seeing your mention of the above, I just thought that I would mention my experience so far leading to abandoning the automatic project in favour of a plug and socket approach.
The difficulty was that the Calibra unit which provided overload protection from the EHU also includes an internal feed to its battery charger. Clive specifically mentions the importance of disconnecting the charger when running the invertor. Unfortunately I could not isolate the charger when running on the inverter. Putting the switch after the calibra would have meant that I would have also lost the overload and earth leakage protection.

In the end I terminated the Calibra output in a single 13amp socket and fitted a plug to the 'van load. I now either plug the 'van sockets into the Calibra or the invertor output as appropriate and I have to remember to switch on the invertor.

Intriguingly, I notice that the invertor interfaces do not seem to provide any earth leakage protection. In the back of my mind I have a feeling that the invertor output has no respect to ground but surely in the event of a fault the RCCD would still work on the unbalance current ? I decided that if the RCCD had not operated whilst on EHU then the chances of a fault occurring when under invertor power was remote.

If anyone feels competent and wants a ready built auto invertor switch I would be happy to make it available to a good home!

Mike


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## ceymore (Feb 8, 2007)

*Just to clarify*

Hi all, and what an informative site this is, at present I use a 150watt inverter for tv etc and I now have a Ring 1000watt one that I was struggling with..
If I make a lead to go from my new inverter and plug it into my existing hookup (obviously there would be no EHU available) would this be satisfactory/safe and and effectively be a 240-ish supply.
Would it not damage my onboard electronics.
Aplogies for basically not understanding all of what's been said but my limited knowledge is growing everyday.

Great site. lots of information, I wish that I knew something of value to post but I've had a hard life and my brain hurts. :roll: :wink:

Cliff


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## klubnomad (Mar 6, 2006)

An interesting topic.

Now a conundrum.

If I were to connect a 300w inverter to my batteries with a 2-4 way socket plugged in, and connected a battery charger to one of the sockets then connected the charger to the battery, would I have perpetual energy :?: 

Dave

656


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

656 said:


> An interesting topic.
> 
> Now a conundrum.
> 
> ...


No

Frank


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## klubnomad (Mar 6, 2006)

sallytrafic said:


> 656 said:
> 
> 
> > An interesting topic.
> ...


Why?

Dave

656


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

A bigger apparent conundrum is that despite Frank being correct, you could indeed patent it as a perpetual energy machine.

Why would it not be perpetual energy? Because you would gradually lose the battery energy as heat.

Dave


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## klubnomad (Mar 6, 2006)

DABurleigh said:


> Why would it not be perpetual energy? Because you would gradually lose the battery energy as heat.
> 
> Dave


But what if you cooled the batteries so they didnt get hot? Not heat, no energy loss!!

Dave

656


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Methinks you are teasing. Look up Physics in Wiki and start from there ;-)


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Just to enlarge on what Dave has said the inverter gives off heat hence the need for a fan and this heat is lost to the system also the battery and wiring heats up but more importantly any electricity you used would also be lost to the system so at a rate greater than but approximately similar to that if you hadn't connected your charger your battery would go flat.

Thats the best I can do 'cause it was Pimms o'clock half an hour ago, and there is only half a jug left. 

Regards


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

I'm on the jug of Sangria, started at about the same time


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