# Another 5th Gear Failure



## AndrewandShirley

In Morocco and have had the dreaded failure but are Ok to get home.

But assuming we just have the repair done then:
a) What cost are we looking at?
b) Any recommendations on garages in Suffolk, Essex or Oxford areas?


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## bognormike

Hi A&S

sorry to hear that; what are the symptoms? Dropping out of 5th? are all other gears Ok?

if it's the crappy 5th gear cogs :roll: , then around £350. It's a relatively easy job because the 5th gear is tacked on the side of the gearbox. Don;t know about anybody in this areas but try to get a gearbox specialist.


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## cabby

I would get a quote while in France, it may well save you money.

cabby


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## sooty10

A few years ago we had ours done in Southern Spain for about 400 Euro. The problem was it went again in about 8 months. Lucky for us the garage in Spain was a Fiat agent and repairs are guaranteed for 12 months. Didn't cost us a thing to have it repaired again in the uk at a Fiat garage. My advice would be that if you have it repaired abroad use a Fiat garage and get the 12 month warranty. 

Sooty


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## sheringham

For what it is worth!!!!

A Fiat mechanic told me that "possibly" the cause of the Fiat Ducato "characteristic" failure of 5th gear is because it is tacked on the outside. He recommended that on long runs I occasionally drop down to 4th which would allow the engine to throw up oil from the gearbox into 5th gear housing!.

Is this plausible?

Ron


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## bognormike

sheringham said:


> For what it is worth!!!!
> 
> A Fiat mechanic told me that "possibly" the cause of the Fiat Ducato "characteristic" failure of 5th gear is because it is tacked on the outside. He recommended that on long runs I occasionally drop down to 4th which would allow the engine to throw up oil from the gearbox into 5th gear housing!.
> 
> Is this plausible?
> 
> Ron


Hi ron

it has been said before that the reason why they fail so often was lack of lubrication, but when mine went the boss at Briggs motors at Fareham said it was more due to the poor quality of the components (made of cheese, he said!). He also said it didn't seem to happen on "normal" commercials that are not loaded up so much as MH's. Motorhomes tend to be consistently near to the maximum weight, whilst the delivery van unit is not. He advised not to let the 'van labour in 5th - change down to 4th before it struggles.


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## asprn

AndrewandShirley said:


> In Morocco and have had the dreaded failure but are Ok to get home.


Hey guys,

Really sorry we just missed you at MMP! What a bummer. We're ambling northwards at around 200 miles per day, currently at Riaza. How is the gearbox? Are you staying at Alhaurin?

Dougie.


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## whistlinggypsy

> In Morocco and have had the dreaded failure but are Ok to get home.
> 
> But assuming we just have the repair done then:
> a) What cost are we looking at?
> b) Any recommendations on garages in Suffolk, Essex or Oxford areas?


Andrew and Shirley, if your en-route through Spain from Algerciras I fully recommend the garage below, did and excellent job on mine, 1hr and £350 claimed back when in the UK as under warranty.

http://www.motorcartagena.com/concesionarios?00000248LTWP

Bob


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## Seeker

Ours went in Italy about 3 years back. Cost just under 500 Euro at a Fiat main dealer, if memory serves - oh, and I had been aware of the potential problem for some time before it went and so had always taken care not to labour in 5th! And we're always well below max weight.

Harry


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## nicholsong

Hello guys, just for my education which years/models are affected?

Mine is 2003.

Geoff


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## dandywarhol

sheringham said:


> For what it is worth!!!!
> 
> A Fiat mechanic told me that "possibly" the cause of the Fiat Ducato "characteristic" failure of 5th gear is because it is tacked on the outside. He recommended that on long runs I occasionally drop down to 4th which would allow the engine to throw up oil from the gearbox into 5th gear housing!.
> 
> Is this plausible?
> 
> Ron


No, all the gears are splash fed. "Tacked" on 5th gears have been around for over 25 years on front wheel drive 'boxes


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## Seeker

Yes, Geoff, yours is affected. Ours is a 2003 2.8jtd.

Harry


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## BillCreer

I have set myself a strict rule of never selecting 5th until I'm doing more than 40 MPH.


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## hippypair

After having 5th. gear replaced approx.3 years ago ,I was advised not to select 5th. until gearbox oil had warmed up and not until I was doing 50 MPH.

Have had no trouble since.

Terry.

PS mine is a 1998 2.5 TD Peugeot.


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## nicholsong

Bill

I think 40 mph is absolute minimum, on flat with a following wind.

Several people have posted that they have fitted a new 5th gear at a lower ratio and my experience to date seems to endorse that idea.

On M/Ways I used to run at 55-60 mph, just ahead of HGVs but I now run at 60-65mph because with the high-ratio 5th gear at 2000rpm she feels more comfortable and probably more economic, but with my high windage on the Arto I would prefer to run at 55-60 mph. So maybe the lower-ratio is the best option.

Geoff


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## 747

I think there is some mis-information on this thread as to which models are affected.

If your reverse gear is selected by moving the gear lever away from you and then forward, then you do not have the earlier gearbox with the 5th gear problem. A 2003 model Fiat has the new gearbox.

Whatever gearbox you have, if you are changing up to 5th at 40 mph, no wonder the gearboxes are failing. You need to be close to, or at 3,000rpm in 4th gear before changing up. For most diesels that will give you close to 2,000 revs in 5th. If you are having to accelerate from about1,500 revs in 5th then you need to stop doing it.

I have the later gearbox in my 52 reg Fiat and I cruise at a minimum of 2,000 revs for economy.

As for your 60 - 65 average at 2,000 revs Nicholsong, remember that the faster speed causes more wind resistance and uses more fuel. It is not a straight line graph. With your gear ratio, you now have no choice but to do that as you should not be driving at much less than 2,000 revs.


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## harveystc

*5th gear*

Hi,In south moreton near didcot oxon is mike deeley a independent garage,his phone no is 01235 814849 who can do the job at a fair cost,hope this might help,going to spain next week hope weather is ok.regards harvey :lol:


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## greygit

Seeker said:


> Yes, Geoff, yours is affected. Ours is a 2003 2.8jtd.
> 
> Harry


 Ours is a 2003 jtd as well but I was under the impression that if you had the gearbox with reverse which is lift up and to the left then it was the modified box and not prone to the fifth gear problem…..hope I'm right.
Gary 8O


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## greygit

747 said:


> I think there is some mis-information on this thread as to which models are affected.
> 
> If your reverse gear is selected by moving the gear lever away from you and then forward, then you do not have the earlier gearbox with the 5th gear problem. A 2003 model Fiat has the new gearbox.
> 
> Whatever gearbox you have, if you are changing up to 5th at 40 mph, no wonder the gearboxes are failing. You need to be close to, or at 3,000rpm in 4th gear before changing up. For most diesels that will give you close to 2,000 revs in 5th. If you are having to accelerate from about1,500 revs in 5th then you need to stop doing it.
> 
> I have the later gearbox in my 52 reg Fiat and I cruise at a minimum of 2,000 revs for economy.
> 
> As for your 60 - 65 average at 2,000 revs Nicholsong, remember that the faster speed causes more wind resistance and uses more fuel. It is not a straight line graph. With your gear ratio, you now have no choice but to do that as you should not be driving at much less than 2,000 revs.


Sorry 747 didn't see your post.
Gary


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## nicholsong

747 and Gary

Thanks for info on 5th gear to the left and forward, which is what I have. Is mine therefore a 2002 build Ducato, although not converted and registered till 2003?

I agree with you 747 about using 2000 rpm but am also aware of the drag ( 1/2 X Rho V squared ) which is why I am considering fitting the lower ratio 5th gear.

Is the 747 tag related to your career? I was B737.

Geoff


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## 747

nicholsong said:


> 747 and Gary
> 
> Thanks for info on 5th gear to the left and forward, which is what I have. Is mine therefore a 2002 build Ducato, although not converted and registered till 2003?
> 
> I agree with you 747 about using 2000 rpm but am also aware of the drag ( 1/2 X Rho V squared ) which is why I am considering fitting the lower ratio 5th gear.
> 
> Is the 747 tag related to your career? I was B737.
> 
> Geoff


My name (747) refers to the fact that I am a lazy git and only have to type 3 numbers. I really fancied having discombobulate but it was too much effort. 

On any vehicle, look at the little tags on things like carpets and wiring loom. As these parts are delivered 'just in time', you get an idea of when the vehicle side of the m/home was built. Mine was about 10 months from vehicle build to first registration.

I bought a brand new Renault Clio in December 2000 and using this method, found that it had been built 21 months earlier. 8O :evil: I tried everything to get some compensation or money back. All I got was a £250 voucher to set against servicing costs from Renault UK. Next time you look to buy a new car, check it out for this. Otherwise it could have been stood outside for a long time, leading to shortened exhaust life, water pump problem, knackered wiper blades etc. All of which I suffered.


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## dandywarhol

Many moons ago when I was a MOT tester, a batch Simca cars failing their test with rusty brake pipes at the first test. Turns out the cars were 6 years old! They'd been lying in a field for 3 years due to overstocking.


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## BillCreer

Geoff/747,
I still think 40 mph 16000 rpm is the lowest speed that I am happy change up and down to 5th. The maximum torque on my 2.8TD is produced at 18000 rpm so my logic would dictate that 18k would probably be the optimum changing up point for acceleration. (also max mpg when cruising)
I base my change up or down point on that which is safely above the point at which the engine hesitates and causes the kind of drive train shunt that is likely cause any gear damage. I think anyone with any mechanical sympathy and experience should be able to feel where this point is and then be able to leave a safety margin.
Having said that I have now, no doubt, tempted fate and will shortly experience a 5th gear fail.


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## jonegood

Wow Im impressed

assuming he has standard ratios Billcreer is travelling at about 480mph - and he s got a gear left to go!!!!!

Now thats what I call a remap!


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## 747

BillCreer said:


> Geoff/747,
> I still think 40 mph 16000 rpm is the lowest speed that I am happy change up and down to 5th. The maximum torque on my 2.8TD is produced at 18000 rpm so my logic would dictate that 18k would probably be the optimum changing up point for acceleration. (also max mpg when cruising)
> I base my change up or down point on that which is safely above the point at which the engine hesitates and causes the kind of drive train shunt that is likely cause any gear damage. I think anyone with any mechanical sympathy and experience should be able to feel where this point is and then be able to leave a safety margin.
> Having said that I have now, no doubt, tempted fate and will shortly experience a 5th gear fail.


1800 rpm is the greatest torque output but do not confuse that with economy. I have a diesel car which shows the current mpg as you are driving it and I have done a lot of testing of mpg at various speeds. If I change up at 3000 rpm, my mpg quickly rises in 5th gear. If I change up earlier, it takes considerably longer to build up speed and consequently my mpg suffers badly. My van has a MAM of 5 tonne and will be considerably worse than a car. Although I have not got the luxury of a digital read out on the m/home, I can feel the difference when the revs are lower than normal. I hardly ever look at my speedo in the m/home, I use the rev counter instead.

Just an afterthought. If you change up at an indicated 40 mph, you are actually doing it at a lower speed as your speedo will be reading between 5 and 10% high. If you do not believe me, set your satnav to show your speed and compare it with the speedo. You are probably changing up at 36 - 38 mph.


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## dandywarhol

BillCreer said:


> Geoff/747,
> I still think 40 mph 16000 rpm is the lowest speed that I am happy change up and down to 5th. The maximum torque on my 2.8TD is produced at 18000 rpm so my logic would dictate that 18k would probably be the optimum changing up point for acceleration. (also max mpg when cruising)
> I base my change up or down point on that which is safely above the point at which the engine hesitates and causes the kind of drive train shunt that is likely cause any gear damage. I think anyone with any mechanical sympathy and experience should be able to feel where this point is and then be able to leave a safety margin.
> Having said that I have now, no doubt, tempted fate and will shortly experience a 5th gear fail.


So, typo error excluded (I think Yamaha R6 engines only rev to 15,000 8) ) changing up to 5th at 1600 rpm is lunacy 8O once in 5th the revs will be around 13/1400 and you'll really end up damaging the 'box 8O

If you want to use 1800 rpm for economy then you need to be thinking of changing into 5th at around 2100 to enable the engine to be revving at your chosen economy revs.......................


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## BillCreer

Sorry I don’t know where that bad case of inflation came from. 18k was last year’s F1 rev limit wasn't it?
I do remember watching Luigi Taviri scream his 5 cylinder 125cc Honda at 24000 rpm in the 60'S TT's. 
The hairs on the back my neck still stands on end when I think of the noise it made as it echoed through the valleys.


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## dandywarhol

BillCreer said:


> Sorry I don't know where that bad case of inflation came from. 18k was last year's F1 rev limit wasn't it?
> I do remember watching Luigi Taviri scream his 5 cylinder 125cc Honda at 24000 rpm in the 60'S TT's.
> The hairs on the back my neck still stands on end when I think of the noise it made as it echoed through the valleys.


How are the hairs now?





 8)


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## oilslick

*the reason for failure...*

I am quite convinced that the reason for failure is the lack of engagement of the teeth on the dog clutch in the middle of the 5th gear.

I am quite convinced that the tolerances are stacking up to far one way (or they just got it wrong). when disengaged there is plenty of room, when engaged they are only about 2/3 of the way in.

I cant remember whether I ground the centre off one of the gears, or used a spacer washer to ensure full engagement when I fitted a set, but was quite sure it wouldnt happen to THIS gearbox again. (Meddled with too many bits of boxes and engines to exactly remember what I did here, but it will soon be obvious to anyone fitting their own)

Regarding dating vehicles, it is usual to see which letter the dot is under of the word "toughened" on the windows. If there is no dot then it is a "0" year build. This is also a worthy tip when buying, to check for year of manufacture. As glass is supplied almost immediattely from manufacture to vehicle builder it is generally within 1 month.

Grant


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## dandywarhol

Great tip Grant - The word "laminated" on the windscreen can also be used, although they're more likely to be replaced through breakage.

Just to clarify Grant's tip - if there's a dot under the letter "U" of TOUGHENED then is's year build 3 of that decade i.e. 2003.

I usually find the year zero is the dot a few mm after the word.

A lot of Newer Euro vehicles use a similar system like this:

...3, denoting year 3 of the decade.  

Good nod on the gear engagement - you'd think it would've been a recall item eh?


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## nicholsong

Thanks to all for advice

Regarding tips for dating the base vehicle, most of the suggestions, e.g. windows, only apply to 'C' Class MHs built on a cab chassis but not to an 'A' class built on a chassis cowl, where for example the windows are built in by the converter. Not a criticism about the tips - only an observation. The tips will be useful to others.

Geoff


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