# Eye Test for over 70 C1/D1



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I understand that the eye test to renew a C1/C1E licence is less stringent if one does not want to include the D1/D1E (minibus)

Does anyone know the difference?

Does one still use the same D4 Medical form, and how does the doctor differentiate in filling it in - since I do not remember being asked whether I wanted C1/D1 or just C1 ?

Geoff

P.S. I do not recall any MHF Members declaring that they are Medical Practitioners - maybe very wise considering the ageing population on here (myself included) and the questions which could be interminable - well until we reach the end :wink:


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Geoff:

Have you read this?

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu...n/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_177094.pdf

Looks like it is all lumped together.

Peter


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

As I understand it there is one small difference in the test if you do not retain D1.
There is a slight reduction in the requirements of the non corrected test if one eye is below the test threshold, if you got your licence by grandfather rights, and if you only retain C1. It does not apply if you retain D1 when no reduction is aallowed.

See section 3, page 7, of the attachment below;


Looking at Peter's link it is to, what looks like, the same pamphlet. The eyesight rules appear slightly different in that it does not seem to differentiate between C1/D1 as my link does. That is one of the problems with government information in all types of licencing information.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Ray:

I can't see any leeway:

"Applicants for categories C1, C1+E, D1, D1+E, C, C+E, D and D+E must also by law have:

3a • a visual acuity of at least 6/9 in the better eye
• a visual acuity of at least 6/12 in the worse eye, and
• if these are achieved by wearing glasses or contact lenses the uncorrected visual acuity in each eye must be no less than 3/60.

You may still be allowed a driving licence:

• if you are an applicant who held an LGV/PCV driving licence before 1 January 1997 and have an uncorrected acuity of less than 3/60 in only one eye, or

• if you held an LGV/PCV (formerly HGV/PSV) driving licence before 1 March 1992 but do not meet the medical standards in 3a.
You can get more information about the medical standards and other requirements from:

The Drivers Medical Group
DVLA
Swansea
SA99 1TU
Phone: 0300 790 6807

Car driving licence holders renewing category C1 (small or medium lorries between 3.5–7.5 tonnes) and category D1 (minibuses not for hire or reward) need to meet the number plate test and the eyesight standard in 3a."

Peter


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

listerdiesel said:


> Ray:
> 
> I can't see any leeway:
> 
> ...


Peter, my link says "An applicant who held a licence before 1 January 1997 and who has an uncorrected acuity of less than 3/60 in only one eye may be able to meet the required standard and should check with Drivers Medical Group, DVLA, Swansea SA99 1TU, or telephone 0870 600 0301, about the requirement."

It then goes on to say "Car licence holders renewing 3.5-7.5 tonne vehicle and minibus entitlement are required to meet the numberplate test and, in addition, minibus entitlement requires the eyesight standard set out in (i) above to be met."

That is that if you want to retain D1 the concession on uncorrected acuity is not an option, only for C1.
Your link is saying that the concession would apply to both C1 and D1. That is the only difference between our two links. I do not know which is the latest issue of the pamphlet.

In any event The Doctor will fill the form in and make no allowances either way. He does the same test for C1 or C1/D1. It is then up to the DVLA Medical Section to issue a licence or not for the classes that have applied for after looking at the medical form.

Ray


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Ray:

Yes, I saw that, but it was by no means definite that you'd get a licence in that situation. That text is in the block I quoted.

Possibly more of an issue once you get into the mid-70's, but a lot of folks have good eyesight right up to their last days. I wear glasses for short-sightedness, but otherwise nothing spectacularly wrong, at present anyway!

Peter


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Peter and Ray 

Thanks to both of you.

I took a further look at both your links and I note that on the title pages of each D4 pamphlet there is what appears to be the issue number. The one in Ray's link is '04/09' which I take to be April 2009, whereas the one in Peter's link is '08/2011' which is presumably August 2011, so I suppose that supersedes the previous one.

I might give DVLA a call just check.

Geoff


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

*licence medical*

Can't comment on the standard at the moment (I think I have a copy of my forms filled in by my GP somewhere) but my GP did the eye test in his surgery at the same time as the physical part. A lot of the stuff was from my records.

Graham


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

We get our eyes tested about every four years, and change our glasses prescription if needed, so that we are always fairly up to date.

Those that don't can risk being pulled over and checked by the Police if their eyesight appears to be sub-standard.

Remember that once you are in the 60's and higher, your eyesight does deteriorate rather more quickly.

My present eyesight meets the requirements of the C1+E test, but that is now, it may well be worse in 2 years time when I need to have the medical.

Peter


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## selstrom (May 23, 2005)

listerdiesel said:


> We get our eyes tested about every four years, and change our glasses prescription if needed, so that we are always fairly up to date.


It is recommended that you have a sight test every two years and yearly it you are over 70, have diabetes or a history of glaucoma in you family.

As the test is free to those over 60 my risk your sight.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

selstrom said:


> It is recommended that you have a sight test every two years and yearly it you are over 70, have diabetes or a history of glaucoma in you family.
> 
> As the test is free to those over 60 my risk your sight.


Yes, but we know what the rate of decline is, and we have used the same optician for many years. He advises as to when we need another test. We are both pretty active and use computers and drive a lot, so we are fairly well aware if something goes 'tilt' in that department 

As the rate of deterioration is not high for either of us, we can run longer between tests.

Peter


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## Ozzyjohn (Sep 3, 2007)

Peter,

Just my opinion - I'm not an optician, but...

The advice you have been given by your optician seems to be at odds with all published guidance I have seen. You do know the rate at which your eyes have deteriorated in the past, but that isn't necessarily a reliable guide to what may happen in the future - and four years could allow a lot of deterioration to happen without you noticing, particularly at a low rate. 

Regular eye examination can identify potential problems other than with your actual eyesight. 

Why run the risk?


Regards,
John


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

John:

Appreciate your comments and concern, but we do review our general health and eyesight, we don't just wait until it all goes bad.

If either of us feel the need for a test or just a quick check-over, we will be there in a flash, don't worry, but over a 12-year period we have not seen any consistent deterioration that would worry us, and the optician, while saying we 'ought' to be tested every two years accepts that the trend is not that bad.

I will pop in next week and see, if that would make you any happier.

Peter


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## LadyJ (May 9, 2005)

Having just gone through this all again for Johns licence I think ive got it right now well he got his licence back from DVLA for another 3 years ok :lol: 

Since his 1st one at 70 they have changed the rules :roll: you now have to have an eye test for C1/D1 licence done at the opticians, previous one the doctor could fill in the bit about eyes. :roll: just to add to the expence, so you now go to the opticians get the test and they fill in the first page of the D4.

Then you toddle off to the docs and he fills in all the rest of the bits
some of it you can fill in yourself.

If you haven't got a photo card licence then you have to get the photos done and take with you to the docs, more expence :roll: 

Oh the D4 you have to download yourself or order on line, neither the opticians or docs keep copies 8O 

When you have it all done take copies of everything as DVLA have a habit of losing things :roll: and if possible send it recorded delivery.


Hope that helps a bit

Jacquie


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

LadyJ said:


> Having just gone through this all again for Johns licence I think ive got it right now well he got his licence back from DVLA for another 3 years ok :lol:
> 
> Since his 1st one at 70 they have changed the rules :roll: you now have to have an eye test for C1/D1 licence done at the opticians, previous one the doctor could fill in the bit about eyes. :roll: just to add to the expence, so you now go to the opticians get the test and they fill in the first page of the D4.
> 
> ...


The pamphlet that Peter and I have been using is now at issue 1/13 and says "Some doctors will be able to complete both the Vision and Medical 
assessment sections of the report. They must be able to fully and accurately complete all the questions. 
Please check before arranging an appointment that the doctor is able to measure the visual acuity to the 6/7.5 line of a Snellen chart and can confirm the strength of your glasses (dioptres) from your 
prescription. If you wear glasses (not contact lenses) to meet the eyesight standard required for driving, you must take a copy of your current prescription clearly showing your dioptre measurements with you to the assessment"

I have no idea how many Doctors can do that and the route described by Jacquie may be the only viable option.

The link to the 1/13 pamphlet is below. read page 4 'what you have to do'. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/139548/INF4D_250113.pdf
It shows how careful you need to be when searching on line as I got taken to an earlier variant, as I think Peter did.

The D4 medical form has been changes and is in two sections with the eye test first with place for optician to sign and then the separate medical section. 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/d4-medical-examination-report-vision-assessment--2


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Ray

Thanks I have now read the D4 pamphlet version 1/13 as you linked.

At the bottom of page 7 it states

'Car driving licence holders who are renewing category C1
(small or medium lorries between 3500 – 7500 kG) need to
meet the number plate test and have eyesight (visual acuity)
of 6/12 (decimal Snellen equivalent 0.5) or better. Category
D1 (minibuses not for hire or reward) must meet the eyesight
standard for Group 2 drivers'

So it appears that applying only for a C1 and not D1 lowers the test requirements. Good to know.

Although it does seem that the advice is different from the previous versions, so maybe it could change again :roll: 

What is not clear is whether that lower standard makes it more likely that a doctor can conduct the test and whether one still has to provide evidence of the glasses prescription.

Also, nowhere does it make clear how the number plate test is to be conducted - never seen a number plate in a doctor's surgery or at an optician   

Geoff


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> Ray
> Also, nowhere does it make clear how the number plate test is to be conducted - never seen a number plate in a doctor's surgery or at an optician
> Geoff


Tthe 'new' D4 medical test form 'Eye Sight Section' does not have the number plate test as one that the tester checks. Perhaps they accept that if you meet the standard of the Visual Acuity test then you would meet the number plate one?

The Tester makes no allowance for what licence group you are going for, they just conduct the standard tests and complete the results. It is DVLA medical department who then make a decision on whether to grant the licence in accordance with the results and the groups being applied for.

It is only my personal view but unless the Doctor is very experienced in eye sight testing and optical matters that the optician route will be the only option.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Ray

And yet in the para. I quoted in my last post it does mention the number plate test., but does not refer to 'better eye' - just one criteria
6/12(Snellen 0.5)

From my experience of document drafting, I get the impression that this pamphlet has been written/re-written by various people/departments and/or at different times and that is why it appears to lack cohesion. :roll: 

Geoff


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Geoff:

Unless you are seriously partially-sighted, you should be able to make the higher standard, it isn't 'that' stringent, 

Just checked with our optician re our own tests, July 2011 was the last one, he says we are OK until next summer, but to let him know if we have any eyesight issues.

My astigmmatism had changed but not much else, Rita's was almost the same as it was last test.

Talking with our guy again, he said that most healthy people would have no problem meeting the standard. 

Peter


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Peter

On my last D4 the doctor seemed a bit dubious when in the 'uncorrected' test I struggled to get halfway down the chart, so I have been a bit concerned, but am now relieved that, if necessary, I could ditch my D1(Which I have never used) and have the latitude of the lower standard.

I would hate to have to go back to under 3500kg - doesn't suite my style of MHing   

Geoff


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

The eyesight test says with or without glasses or contact lenses.

Uncorrected may be a problem for most of us! 

Peter


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

listerdiesel said:


> The eyesight test says with or without glasses or contact lenses.
> 
> Uncorrected may be a problem for most of us!
> 
> Peter


Issue 1/13 of the information pamphlet says "Drivers who have sight in one eye only or their sight in one eye has deteriorated to less than 0.05 (3/60) cannot normally be licensed to drive Group 2 vehicles. Among the exceptions are if:
"You are applying to renew entitlement to drive category C1 (vehicles between 3500kG and 7500 kG) that was granted with your Group 1 (car and motorcycle) licence if you had passed a car driving test before 1 January 1997."

So you can be blind in one eye if renewing your grandfather rights for C1.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

listerdiesel said:


> The eyesight test says with or without glasses or contact lenses.
> 
> Uncorrected may be a problem for most of us!
> 
> Peter


Peter you may well be correct that the whole of the eyesight test can be done with or without glasses.

However, after re-reading the D4 pamphlet the phrase 'with or without glasses' is only included in certain paragraphs. If it is the intention that all of the parts of the test could be done with glasses it should have been written in at the start. Normal legal interpretation is that if a clause is included in one paragraph, but not another, then it does not apply to the paragraph where it is omitted.

It may just be bad drafting by DVLA.

I do not have a very good opinion of DVLA standards and would not be surprised if, when their staff are interpreting a badly drafted document, that would compound the chance for error.

Maybe my doctor was checking 'uncorrected' vision for general health reasons and not just the D4 - or he has difficulty in understanding the guidance  :lol:

It does seem to be a bit of a nightmare to understand it all - even for me as a lawyer :roll:

Geoff


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

I think the only time this becomes an issue, is when you need glasses for eyesight correction and you therefore cannot drive without them.

So if you are stopped and your licence is checked and says you need glasses, and you haven't got them on, you're in the doo-doo.

You make that declaration on your driving licence application.

Peter


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Thanks everyone, particularly Peter and Ray, for your efforts and information.

This has been a good, well-conducted thread from which I think many of us have been up-dated on the current situation.

This is how MHF should work on these technical questions - well done everyone!  

Geoff


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