# A Frames in Spain



## DJP

I don't want to open another A Frame debate, but I have read elsewhere on t'internet that, and I quote

_"Just a warning to anybody that uses A Frames. Friends of ours were stopped on the Motorway outside of Barcelona recently whilst on the way home and fined £100 on the spot for using an A Frame. Apparently new regulations brought in in that part of Spain on the 1st Jan.
"_
Does anyone know of these changes to Spanish law?
That's it, NO DEBATE on use. 
Has the law changed YES or NO.
IF so, where can the new rules be found?
Many thanks
Dennis


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## thieawin

The answer is that whatever the regulations in Spain, Catalonia or wherever the question of legality of a British registered vehicle towing a British A frame on a temporary visit to another country is one on British Law.

if its legal here it has to be accepted throughoiut the rest of the EU

This is not the first time this has happened.

Most peopoe buying an A frame are given a spanish case and transaltion where someone was stoped, fined on the spot and on return home wrote with help of their Euro MP to the Spanish authorities and had it cancelled.

So you cannot raise this question without raising the whole is it legal here debate. That is unfortunate

I was in Catalonia from 27 December to 6 January with A frame and Smart and was stopped, after new year by police for two offences, light to rear had blown and the van plate had fallen off the Smart so I had wrong number plate to rear. I got done €140 in total but they didn't bother about the A frame.


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## phil4francoise

www.motorcaravanning.com/vehicles/towing.htm. Should answer your questions without any on line debates


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## DJP

Hi Phil

Sorry, link does not seem to work.

thieawin

That is also my understanding of the law. As advised by Towtal

_The vehicle on tow is for our personal use when the motorcaravan is
parked on a camp site. It will be taken back to the U.K. when we
have completed our holiday.
May we respectfully inform you of the regulations when towing a
car/trailer behind a motorcaravan, in the United Kingdom.
When attached with a fixed towing frame the car is considered to be a
trailer and is subject to trailer regulations covered by the official
Construction and Use Regulations. A number of EEC Directives
apply to U.K. trailer regulations. A car on tow with a fixed towing
device is defined as a steerable multi-axle trailer.
May we ask you to notice the "trailer" is carrying the registration
number of the towing vehicle and also red reflective triangles.
The general practice agreements of the EEC state :
"Provided a vehicle complies with the Construction and Use
Regulations in its country of registrations no modifications have to be
made when the vehicle or vehicle/trailer combination is subsequently
temporarily imported into another member country_



> So you cannot raise this question without raising the whole, is it legal here debate. That is unfortunate


But my original question asks if Spanish law has changed? That's it no debate, YES or NO :!: 
IF so, and I doubt it, is this the start of "the ball rolling"
Thanks to you both
Dennis


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## chalky9

DJP said:


> Hi Phil
> 
> Sorry, link does not seem to work.


You need to remove the final full stop, i.e. http://www.motorcaravanning.com/vehicles/towing.htm .


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## stewartwebr

Sorry can't tell you about law changes. However, 5 weeks ago we met a guy in an Autotrail and Smart at the Aire in Calais. He was a fulltimer and heading back to the UK. He had just been done in Spain. He said he had towed all round Spain for years and this was the first time he had any problems. He was charged with a heavy fine and told they would be looking out for him.

His wife had to drive the Smart and he drove the van to the nearest border. He coupled back up when he reached France. This leads me to think that perhaps the law has changed in Spain.

I understand the European ruling about it being law in your country etc. But try explaining that to a Policeman on the hardshoulder of a motorway. You could have the translation paperwork, but what if they disagree, do you head to the Police Station or just pay up?

Stewart


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## 98794

It has alwaya been my understanding that the only way you could tow a car behind a motorhome in Spain was on a braked trailer. As for "if it is legal in the UK then it follows that it must be lagal in Spain" then best of luck explaining that one to the Guardia Civil Traficos !!! and if your Spanish only extends to una cerveza por favor then... :lol:


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## teemyob

*Spain*

Or just don't bother going to Spain!


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## lookback

guerrero said:


> It has alwaya been my understanding that the only way you could tow a car behind a motorhome in Spain was on a braked trailer. As for "if it is legal in the UK then it follows that it must be lagal in Spain" then best of luck explaining that one to the Guardia Civil Traficos !!! and if your Spanish only extends to una cerveza por favor then... :lol:


Why is it that the ex-pats living in Spain tar everybody with the same brush! I have used an A Frame extensively, with my UK registered motorhome, in Spain and Portugal for the past three years and have not been stopped. My brother in law stays eight months of the year in Spain using an A Frame without any bother. If and a big if I get stopped by the "guardia trafficos" I will adhere to their wishes and then claim the fine back via my MEP. So what is the big deal. 
There is more risk towing a car on a trailer behind you without displaying the long vhicle signs because your outfit exceeds 12m


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## javea

The only time I have been stopped was at the border when towing a Smart on a trailer and the Guardia Civil would not let me proceed until I had shown them proof that the Smart had insurance cover, even though it was on a Brian James trailer specifically designed for Smarts!

You have to remember that the Guardia Civil are self financing and if they want an injection of monies I have know them to fine people for offences which they have clearly not committed, eg. not stopping at a stop sign when clearly they have done so.

Agree with previous post, I carry a copy of the dismissal of a fine by the Ministerio del Interior de Gerona to show to the officer, if that doesn't work cause he has had a bad day, row with the wife etc., then I would pay the fine and as suggested, claim it back.


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## TonyF

I would conclude with the previous post - the Guardia Civil are tasked with raising revenue. There have been two instances of people being fined for driving in flip-flops (or backless 'mule' type shoes) Although I'm not sure whether this was as a result of poor driving in the first instance.


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## bozzer

*A frame in Spain*

Javea 03730 where would I find a copy of the dismissal please. We have the paperwork from Towtal and when stopped by Guardia March 2009 they said it was a very bad translation!
Thanks
Bozzer


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## lunarroadstar

Recently looking for more information reference towing with an "A" frame in Spain I came across the British Embassy in Madrid website which clearly states:-

"Towing a car with a motorhome

Towing a car behind a motor home using an A-frame is illegal in Spain and you will be fined for using one."

To read for yourself, go to ukinspain.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-spain/cars


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## thieawin

And that begs the question, is it a car as thh spanish are trying to contend, and at least one regional traffic administrateor has held it to be (nb not binding on anyone but that case) or is it a trailer or remolque when attached to the A Frame, not tested here or in Spain in the courts. 

That begs the next question, do you want to be a trial case?


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## steco1958

thieawin said:


> That begs the next question, do you want to be a trial case?


No you don't, because to contest it would cost ££££'s and more importantly time and effort.


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## thieawin

Exactly, and with the Guardia Civil now apparently enforcing, it affects the risk calculation.

The question was, to a certain extent rhetorical and not literal

However step one is not expensive, it involves paying the on the spot fine, then writing to challenge it administratively as wrong, standard letter there, and applying for a refund.

Only if that fails is it a court application.

Maybe administrators would quash on the trailer/remolque argument for fer of going to court and losing? Who knows


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## mikeT

I have always worked on the lines when in Rome do as the Romans if you are in Spain you have to abide by Spanish law not make your own up .

All this Rubbish about a car is a trailer when its being towed on an "A" frame you don't tax and Mot a trailer end of story in my book.


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## Noel

mikeT said:


> I have always worked on the lines when in Rome do as the Romans if you are in Spain you have to abide by Spanish law not make your own up .
> 
> All this Rubbish about a car is a trailer when its being towed on an "A" frame you don't tax and Mot a trailer end of story in my book.


What a simplistic facile analogy!


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## mikeT

Noel said:


> mikeT said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have always worked on the lines when in Rome do as the Romans if you are in Spain you have to abide by Spanish law not make your own up .
> 
> All this Rubbish about a car is a trailer when its being towed on an "A" frame you don't tax and Mot a trailer end of story in my book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noel said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a simplistic facile analogy!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi `What's you problem Noel
> don't you like people having there own opinion ?
Click to expand...


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## CliffyP

mikeT said:


> I have always worked on the lines when in Rome do as the Romans if you are in Spain you have to abide by Spanish law not make your own up .
> 
> All this Rubbish about a car is a trailer when its being towed on an "A" frame you don't tax and Mot a trailer end of story in my book.


Quite right Mike, in Europe we they have different motoring laws, drink drive limits, speed limits etc.
Its like an earlier parking thread, why why why do people think rules and laws should be different to suit them :roll: .
My feelings are well known, if you want a car when touring ' Get A Caravan', or do it properly and safely and buy a trailer.
It drives me mad when I get to an Aire or Stellplatze and some ignorant tosser is taking up two spaces, oblivious to the needs of others. :evil:


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## peribro

CliffyP said:


> My feelings are well known, if you want a car when touring ' Get A Caravan', or do it properly and safely and buy a trailer.


For the uninformed perhaps you could enlighten me why a car on a trailer is safer than a car attached by an A frame.


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## thieawin

Stop getting personal. There is at least one Spanish administrative decision that says the car on an A frame is a remolque (trailer) and the UK authorities say that as well.

Not been decided, there is always risk somewhere, the activities of the police currently in Spain just change the risk


Oh and you do register, if not tax, a trailer in Spain, and it has to be roadworthy whereever you are . MOT is a herring, very red, vis a vis abroad. My toad has no MOT, none in IOM, a toad less than 3 won't have one either. 

And how would a car on A frame take up any more room at an aire than the same car on a trailer? Wouldn't it take up less room?


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## CliffyP

thieawin said:


> Stop getting personal. There is at least one Spanish administrative decision that says the car on an A frame is a remolque (trailer) and the UK authorities say that as well.
> 
> Not been decided, there is always risk somewhere, the activities of the police currently in Spain just change the risk
> 
> Oh and you do register, if not tax, a trailer in Spain, and it has to be roadworthy whereever you are . MOT is a herring, very red, vis a vis abroad. My toad has no MOT, none in IOM, a toad less than 3 won't have one either.
> 
> And how would a car on A frame take up any more room at an aire than the same car on a trailer? Wouldn't it take up less room?


Firstly I dont agree with cars,towed on a trailer or otherwise. Thats why caravans are not allowed on the vast majority (almost all).
A trailer is more stable, has its own permenant no plate and lights, and clearly one country agree's. The AA etc have moved away from A Frames also. And I do hope you dont tow a car with bikes on the roof :roll: .
The powers that be (as pointed out in an earlier post) say they (A Frames) are not legal in Spain, and still the toss is argued :roll:


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## teensvan

Hi All.

We are in Benidorm on camping El-Raco and the gent on the pitch opposite me who came in last week with A-Frame and car told me he got fined €40 and to remove the car and his wife to drive it. He had only just crossed into Spain from Barritz. He paid up straight away or the fine would be €80.

He was followed for the next 40 miles. He did re-couple the car as his wife did not like to drive on the Right side of the road. He will not bring the car again on the A-Frame

steve & ann. --teensvan.


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## peribro

CliffyP said:


> A trailer is more stable, has its own permenant no plate and lights, and clearly one country agree's.


 So I can be clear. You think that a car on a trailer, many of which are single axle, is more stable than a car with four wheels at the corners? As for number plates and lights, a car on an A frame usually displays the towing vehicles number on a plate attached to its own plate whilst all cars do, of course, have lights whether they are self propelled or towed.


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## Mrplodd

For the avoidance of doubt

ANYTHING that is being towed behind (attached) a Motor vehicle is legally defined as a TRAILER. (even if its a fully taxed and insured car its still classified as being a trailer)

Its a trailer exactly the same as caravan etc. Yes its still a motor vehicle, its the fact that it is being drawn by another motor vehicle that changes its definition to trailer.

As soon as its uncoupled from the towing vehicle it then ceases to be a trailer and revertes to be a Motor vehicle. Thats because it is a mechanically propelled vehicle made adapted or intended for use upon the highway. thats why caravans dont become motor vehicles when they are detached, they are not mechanically propelled :?

Being a trailer it has to conform to ALL the legislation in respect of trailers, thats why any such towed car SHOULD display two reflective triangle to show its a trailer!!!

The important one for A frames is that the brakes of the "trailer" must AUTOMATICALLY disengage when the towing vehicle and trailer is reversed WITHOUT any intervention from the driver of the towing vehicle (or any other occupant) That is simply not possible owing to how the over-run braking system works on (the vast majority) of A frames.

I accept that it seems plain daft that a car becomes a trailer when connected to a towing vehicle but thats how the law is written, (the wording is VERY clear and there is NO room for misinterpretation) it doesnt matter what you think, or what common sense says, its the legal definition that matters!


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## CliffyP

peribro said:


> CliffyP said:
> 
> 
> 
> A trailer is more stable, has its own permenant no plate and lights, and clearly one country agree's.
> 
> 
> 
> So I can be clear. You think that a car on a trailer, many of which are single axle, is more stable than a car with four wheels at the corners? As for number plates and lights, a car on an A frame usually displays the towing vehicles number on a plate attached to its own plate whilst all cars do, of course, have lights whether they are self propelled or towed.
Click to expand...

Neither are safe, you have one of the most unstable vehicles on the road i.e. a Motorhome, towing. My preference would be a trailer every time. A Frames were designed as an emergency recovery device, not to tow cars all over Europe. 
Clearly the Spanish feel they are not safe either. You can tow a car on a rope but its not safe :wink:

Either way you become a Tugger


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## mikeT

Re- Mr. Plodds "
I accept that it seems plain daft that a car becomes a trailer when connected to a towing vehicle but thats how the law is written, (the wording is VERY clear and there is NO room for misinterpretation) it doesnt matter what you think, or what common sense says, its the legal definition that matters! "


I total agree with you Mr.plodd and thats what the spanish law said also.
In Spain it the Spanish definition that matters ! It Illegal in there eyes


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## thieawin

CliffyP said:


> peribro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CliffyP said:
> 
> 
> 
> A trailer is more stable, has its own permenant no plate and lights, and clearly one country agree's.
> 
> 
> 
> So I can be clear. You think that a car on a trailer, many of which are single axle, is more stable than a car with four wheels at the corners? As for number plates and lights, a car on an A frame usually displays the towing vehicles number on a plate attached to its own plate whilst all cars do, of course, have lights whether they are self propelled or towed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Neither are safe, you have one of the most unstable vehicles on the road i.e. a Motorhome, towing. My preference would be a trailer every time. A Frames were designed as an emergency recovery device, not to tow cars all over Europe.
> Clearly the Spanish feel they are not safe either. You can tow a car on a rope but its not safe :wink:
> 
> Either way you become a Tugger
Click to expand...

Just not true Cliffy P

An A Frame is not a recovery device, it is fitted, installed and the toad is modified so it will link up for lights, electrics and brakes if done properly as well as the tow frame attachment points, not something you could do to recover, spend a day modifying the car to be recovered

Maybe you are confusing an A frame with a dolly

Spanish law is not clear. No one has tested it, neither is UK law. One set of authorities attempts to enforce one way and the other the other.

I don't get the allegation that a (any) motor home (towing or otherwise) is one of the most unstable vehicles on the road, proof or link or statistics please

and were you having a bad day. I don't understand much of what you posted above

You don't like cars at all?
A car is less stable than a trailer? again source of allegation
A Trailer has permanent plates and lights? What about light and number plate boards, A toad can have a permanent number plate and hard wired connected lights, a trailer might not, depends on trailer and A frame conversion
Which country agrees and with what?
The AA has stopped using A frames, when did it use them and what for? It used dollys occasionally
And finally as repeatedly pointed out there has been no case in either UK or Spain to test, so any advice is opinion only


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## jud

teensvan said:


> Hi All.
> 
> We are in Benidorm on camping El-Raco and the gent on the pitch opposite me who came in last week with A-Frame and car told me he got fined €40 and to remove the car and his wife to drive it. He had only just crossed into Spain from Barritz. He paid up straight away or the fine would be €80.
> 
> He was followed for the next 40 miles. He did re-couple the car as his wife did not like to drive on the Right side of the road. He will not bring the car again on the A-Frame
> 
> steve & ann. --teensvan.


hi teensvan. they was doing that last year on arrival the the camp site in vineros the wives were driving there cars to and from the frence border .jud p.s any room left for us in jan


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## Mrplodd

I am also of the view A frames are not legal in the UK for exactly the same reasons (pan european legislation) However as yet the Crown Prosecution Service have wimped out of taking a case to a court so that we (the motoring public) can have a DEFINATIVE and binding decision.

Personally, as one who has had to interpret the letter of the law for many years, I am happy that the law does not allow for them. Others disagree and that is their choice. 

Ask any of the manufacturers to provide, in writing, that the use of their A frame dowes not break the law and that if you are fined they (the makers) will pay your fine for you.

I am willing to bet that NOT A SINGLE one will do that, if you have an A frame try asking the makers for that undertaking. If its not forthcoming you will know the reason why.

I think maybe I will contact a few and see what sort of response I get !! 

Keep watching for the results of my research


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## Dougaitken

Hi 

Cliffyp has suggested that you should TUG RATHER THAN A FRAME if you want a car at your destination. 

He states that in his view a Motorhome Towing A Frame or Trailer is one of the most unstable combinations on the road. It seems amazing that Peugoet consider that their Boxer Van, the basis of many Motorhomes is capable of towing up to 2000KG. Apparently they are advocating an unstable combination.

Why suggest that people should Tug instead. I have seen more accidents with caravans becoming unstable than I have ever heard involving an A frame. 

I am sure the real reason for the Spanish Gov making their decision is that you would have greater problems certifying A frames than you can trailers. They have therefore decided to consider them illegal within their country.

From experience I have seen many cars bouncing about on a trailer whereas I don't even feel the Car I am towing is even there. There is, in my view, more chance of a car breaking away from a trailer than parting from an A frame.

If the Spanish Authorities don't want such combinations being used in their country then we should respect that as we expect people to respect our requirements.

Doug


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## loddy

I have been involved in towing and recovery for more years than i wish to remember, I have towed trailers, caravans, dollys, A frames, and used specticle lifts, I used to drive a short wheeled based Land Rover with a great big trailer on the back for the AA and it was the most unstable thing in the world , I have been in more snakes than a zoo keeper and survived. remember the suspended tow ? the garage I worked at at the age of 21 sent me to pick up a Daimler, every time I winched it up the front wheels of the Land Rover came off the ground so I sat the youngster who was with me on the front and drove back to the garage

In my opinion a car on a A frame is more stable and safer than any trailer, I have been fined in Spain for using one but will continue to do so, I did 10,000 miles in Europe last year and 8,000 miles in the US this year all with a car on a A frame

Loddy


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## peedee

CliffyP has obviously never towed a caravan! I tow using an A-Frame and it is far safer than towing a caravan and gives me the best of both worlds, caravaning and touring with a motorhome. I never bother taking a car onto the Continent, don't need it there. End of story as far as I am concerned.

peedee


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## loddy

CliffyP said:


> thieawin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stop getting personal. There is at least one Spanish administrative decision that says the car on an A frame is a remolque (trailer) and the UK authorities say that as well.
> 
> Not been decided, there is always risk somewhere, the activities of the police currently in Spain just change the risk
> 
> Oh and you do register, if not tax, a trailer in Spain, and it has to be roadworthy whereever you are . MOT is a herring, very red, vis a vis abroad. My toad has no MOT, none in IOM, a toad less than 3 won't have one either.
> 
> And how would a car on A frame take up any more room at an aire than the same car on a trailer? Wouldn't it take up less room?
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly I dont agree with cars,towed on a trailer or otherwise. Thats why caravans are not allowed on the vast majority (almost all).
> A trailer is more stable, has its own permenant no plate and lights, and clearly one country agree's. The AA etc have moved away from A Frames also. And I do hope you dont tow a car with bikes on the roof :roll: .
> The powers that be (as pointed out in an earlier post) say they (A Frames) are not legal in Spain, and still the toss is argued :roll:
Click to expand...

Cliffy
the reason the AA has moved away from A frames for recovery is the difficulty in attaching them, spoilers and plastic bits get in the way, because as you know ( or don't) they are attached to the lower suspension arms

Loddy


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## SamAhab

It's irrefutable; a car being towed on its own four wheels is inherently more stable, having a lower centre of gravity, than a car being pulled on a trailer.

The centre of gravity (CoG) of the combination is raised by the height of the trailer's platform causing the 'toppling' moment to be higher than a car sitting on the road (as it's designed to do) and, therefore, more prone to tipping over when turning a corner at anything more than benign speeds or when taking emergency avoiding action.

Trailers (in the context of this debate) are generally single axle/2 wheels on the ground, providing less grip than do 4 wheels. With such 2-wheeled trailers, there is also the potential to for the load (the car) to be loaded too far forward or too far back, causing the tongue weight to be too heavy or too light.

I've been accompanied by my SMART and now my Toyota iQ3 in every country in Europe and have never been inconvenienced (or caused inconvenience to) by anyone at an aire or equivalent by taking up too much space. If the aire is full I simply park my toad outside the aire in the street. If I had a trailer to deal with, I would be reluctant to park IT in the street for fear of theft! That remark made by a previous poster was IMO completely spurious to this debate and without merit.


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## Chascass

(quote) Personally, as one who has had to interpret the letter of the law for many years, I am happy that the law does not allow for them. Others disagree and that is their choice. (unquote)


How many Motorhomes in your experience were reported (with a view to a prosecution) for towing by means of a fully functional factory fitted A-frame, and because their have been no prosecutions that I know of in the UK what reason's did the CPS give for not proceeding.

Charlie


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## odipar

We were planning to take our MH + Smart car plus 2 JR dogs one way by sea to Spain in Sept 2012 spend 6 weeks there and drive back thru France
Have read about the potential fines we may have to pay using our A frame in Spain we have decided kick that idea in touch and stay in France
You never know but Sarkozy might win the 2012 election which will mean we will have more Euros in our pocket
Cheers
MGA Coupe


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## CliffyP

Where to start :roll: 
I agree with mrplodd, A Frames should be illegal.
Doug, an A Frame is still Tugging.
As far as I am aware Fiat/Puegeot/Renault and even Merc dont bolt a great big caravan on the back, they only provide the chassis cab. Then the chassis is messed about with (Merc excluded). And anyone who thinks a motorhome is stable :roll: (its like some poster a while ago who said is motorhome drove as good as any car he'd had, he must have had some awful cars), they are a compromise. Its great to know that someone on here knows how the Spanish Goverment is thinking.
And peedee, I had a twin wheel Adria 610, and hated towing anything, hence a Motorhome and a Static. 

I would be curious to know insurance companies takes on this, i.e. if towing with an A Frame in Spain and you had an accident, being illegal would you be insured :? . 
And of course there are more accidents with caravans against A Framed Cars, there are a LOT more out there.

Sorry for addition  , but nothing on a Tow Bar can be described as stable.


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## DSL2

Whilst everyone is entitled to opinions, some misinformed types maybe should try to keep them to themselves..... 

Having towed trailers for over 20 years using various vehicles from a small Honda CRX sports car, various vans, Land rover Discovery / Range Rovers & more recently a couple of motorhomes I will categorically state that my Iveco based RS is the most stable & worry free trailer towing combination I have ever used.

Now saying that, as a recent purchaser of an electronically braked A frame equipped Fiat 500 I would agree with the majority of actual users that they are an improvement in worry free towing over even the best of modern twin axle trailers, whatever the Spanish may say on the mater.


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## CliffyP

DSL2 said:


> Whilst everyone is entitled to opinions, some misinformed types maybe should try to keep them to themselves.....
> 
> Having towed trailers for over 20 years using various vehicles from a small Honda CRX sports car, various vans, Land rover Discovery / Range Rovers & more recently a couple of motorhomes I will categorically state that my Iveco based RS is the most stable & worry free trailer towing combination I have ever used.
> 
> Now saying that, as a recent purchaser of an electronically braked A frame equipped Fiat 500 I would agree with the majority of actual users that they are an improvement in worry free towing over even the best of modern twin axle trailers, whatever the Spanish may say on the mater.


I wouldn't brag about 20 years of driving, most people on here were driving before you were born.
As someone who was also competing in cars before you were born, and has been driving over 40 years, having had over 100 cars from Mercs to Jags to BM's to Audis, to Hill Climb Cars (which I towed) and currently has six cars, I can tell you without question that a Motorhome is not in anyway shape of form the ideal towing vehicle.
By the way had two Range Rovers and they would pull the side if a house, but rubbish. Mr Misinformed.


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## SamAhab

DSL2 said:


> I will categorically state that my Iveco based RS is the most stable & worry free trailer towing combination I have ever used.
> 
> I agree with this comment. My Iveco Daily based Concorde Charisma performs likewise; faultlessly, extremely stable and worry free.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think a lot of the negative comments are coming from owners of smaller vans who have no experience of towing with an A frame.


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## DSL2

Its not the quantity of the driving more the quality.

Winning the 2009 Bikesports & 2010 Radical race championships whilst also achieving the 2010 Autosport Golden Helmet award (most race wins of anyone in the UK) would maybe attest too the quality

Spending both of those years towing for many thousands of miles a 6.4mtr trailer behind a 9.2mtr motorhome I feel pretty well qualified to comment on it!


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## olley

The heavier the tow vehicle in relation to the towed vehicle, and the longer the wheel base of the tow vehicle, the more stable the combination will be. A 3.5ton motorhome towing a 1 ton car is a lot more stable than a car towing another car on a trailer, or a car towing a caravan, which I believe can weigh up to 80% of the cars weight according to the CC

In America its the de-facto way for an RV to tow a car, and some cars are designed by the manufacturers to enable this. If it was unsafe I would have thought in such a litigious country the lawyers would be having a field day.

It may well be illegal, but as the cps seem disinterested why are people getting so upset about it? Some posters on here seem keen in getting them banned purely for their own personal reasons. It almost seems vindictive. I haven't got one/don't want one so you shouldn't have one either.

By the way I trailer my Micra.

Ian


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## loddy

Call this unstable ?????


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## CliffyP

loddy said:


> Call this unstable ?????


Well if you cant see it

:roll:


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## emmbeedee

Mrplodd said:


> The important one for A frames is that the brakes of the "trailer" must AUTOMATICALLY disengage when the towing vehicle and trailer is reversed WITHOUT any intervention from the driver of the towing vehicle (or any other occupant) That is simply not possible owing to how the over-run braking system works on (the vast majority) of A frames.
> 
> !


Point of interest:
How are the brakes of caravans disengaged automatically when reversing?
If they aren't, are all caravans illegal?
If they are, how?
If they are, why can't the same disengagement system be applied to A-frames?

I remember from my father's caravan (long ago) there was a flip-over lever on the A-frame to disengage the brakes, but that obviously wasn't automatic. The driver had to get out to flip the lever over & remember to flip it back again when moving off.


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## Mrplodd

Out of interest can anyone who has been fined in Spain tell me what EXACTLY they were fined for??? i.e what SPECIFIC offence did they commit ???

This is not any form of wind up it is a serious enquiry.

As far as stability etc is concerned I would be the first to agree that a car on an A frame is far more stable than one on a trailer. However I was detailing what the law states in respect of cars on A frames. 

As far as why no motorhome A frame tuggers have been to court the situation is that any such prosecutions must be authorised by the CPS. Unless they feel there is a significant prospect of a conviction they will not persue it as it will reduce their "success rate" They ALWAYS look for reasons NOT to take matters to court.

If you dont believe me ask ANY copper !!!!!


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## rayc

emmbeedee said:


> Mrplodd said:
> 
> 
> 
> The important one for A frames is that the brakes of the "trailer" must AUTOMATICALLY disengage when the towing vehicle and trailer is reversed WITHOUT any intervention from the driver of the towing vehicle (or any other occupant) That is simply not possible owing to how the over-run braking system works on (the vast majority) of A frames.
> 
> !
> 
> 
> 
> Point of interest:
> How are the brakes of caravans disengaged automatically when reversing?
> If they aren't, are all caravans illegal?
> If they are, how?
> If they are, why can't the same disengagement system be applied to A-frames?
> 
> I remember from my father's caravan (long ago) there was a flip-over lever on the A-frame to disengage the brakes, but that obviously wasn't automatic. The driver had to get out to flip the lever over & remember to flip it back again when moving off.
Click to expand...

Caravans have brakes which disengage when the caravan is reversed. As the tow vehicle reverses it acts in the same way as when the caravan is catching up with the car under normal braking. As the wheels start to turn backwards the shoes disengage from the drum. It's been that way since the 80's or even before.
http://www.al-ko.co.uk/edit/files/handbooks/overrun-braking-system-handbook.pdf

Obviously the same could not apply to an A frame as it has no brakes.


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## rayc

Mrplodd said:


> Out of interest can anyone who has been fined in Spain tell me what EXACTLY they were fined for??? i.e what SPECIFIC offence did they commit ???
> 
> This is not any form of wind up it is a serious enquiry.
> 
> As far as stability etc is concerned I would be the first to agree that a car on an A frame is far more stable than one on a trailer. However I was detailing what the law states in respect of cars on A frames.
> 
> As far as why no motorhome A frame tuggers have been to court the situation is that any such prosecutions must be authorised by the CPS. Unless they feel there is a significant prospect of a conviction they will not persue it as it will reduce their "success rate" They ALWAYS look for reasons NOT to take matters to court.
> 
> If you dont believe me ask ANY copper !!!!!


I wonder why all those highly trained police vehicle examiners and VOSA inspectors have been unable to convince the CPS that their interpretation is that an A frame is illegal? Perhaps there is no 'political' will, or there is no actual problem in practice, so that they ignore it and concentrate on things deemed more serious.


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## emmbeedee

rayc said:


> emmbeedee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mrplodd said:
> 
> 
> 
> The important one for A frames is that the brakes of the "trailer" must AUTOMATICALLY disengage when the towing vehicle and trailer is reversed WITHOUT any intervention from the driver of the towing vehicle (or any other occupant) That is simply not possible owing to how the over-run braking system works on (the vast majority) of A frames.
> 
> !
> 
> 
> 
> Point of interest:
> How are the brakes of caravans disengaged automatically when reversing?
> If they aren't, are all caravans illegal?
> If they are, how?
> If they are, why can't the same disengagement system be applied to A-frames?
> 
> I remember from my father's caravan (long ago) there was a flip-over lever on the A-frame to disengage the brakes, but that obviously wasn't automatic. The driver had to get out to flip the lever over & remember to flip it back again when moving off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Caravans have brakes which disengage when the caravan is reversed. As the tow vehicle reverses it acts in the same way as when the caravan is catching up with the car under normal braking. As the wheels start to turn backwards the shoes disengage from the drum. It's been that way since the 80's or even before.
> http://www.al-ko.co.uk/edit/files/handbooks/overrun-braking-system-handbook.pdf
> 
> Obviously the same could not apply to an A frame as it has no brakes.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, obviously things have changed a lot since the 40s/50s when my dad was building his caravans. I wonder what happened when this type of system was made compulsory, presumably there was a time delay to prevent the older caravans becoming obsolete overnight.


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## Dougaitken

I don't think the retro fitting of rerversing capability on a caravan was ever required like the current fitting of Daylight Running Lights on new cars is not required on all previous cars. This has been a common policy when new requirements are introduced.

I am disappointed that someone on here should suggest that another contributer should not brag they have been driving for 20 years as there are plenty on here who have done 40 years. I have been in vehicles with 40+ year drivers who wouldn't pass an old driving test let alone todays indeed some had never taken a test. 20 years is long enough to have accumulated a lot of experience and be able to gave a view without such an attack. I don't believe the fact that I have driven for over 50 years in vehicles from the Mini to a 70 tonne dump truck and towed for 1000's of miles means that I am better than a driver of lesser years experience. I also think it is unfortunate that some suggest that the A Frame should be made illegal when they may have never used an A frame or admit they don't like towing and won't. 

I am sure MrPlod is right that Police are not happy when the CPS decide not to prosecute as they will have spent a lot of time preparing the evidence. There are still many instances when they do prosecute and fail to get a conviction and I along with many others don't want them spending more of my Taxes where they feel they have little chance of winning. 

Part of the CPS's problem may be that the Ministry of Transport have declared that a car with an A frame is deemed a Trailer.

Ultimately I anticipate the in the next few years the A frame could well be classified as Illegal which is disappointing. Cars and Trailers have strict rules applied to them at time of manufacture and A frames are unlikely to be able to be so regulated. Another reason little has happened so far is that there have been few if any problems with A Frames in use. If they were causing problems on the roads it would soon banned.

It is a shame that something that appears to work well and cause no problems to the general public should be at risk of banning. If there was a problem the Health and Safety fraternity would be out in force remember they don't like you playing conkers even with safety glasses on.

Enough said.


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## seanoo

hi cliffyp, i a-frame a seicento and it is specifically insured to tow behind my motorhome on an a-frame. i have a trailer for use in spain though and only a-frame in the rest of europe. the trailer is nowhere near as stable as the a-frame. it doesnt feel like it will tip or snake but it does move the van about a bit compared to the a-frame . also there are many more things to go wrong and its only safe if the person putting the car on does everything right and secures the car properly as it seems people like to come over and talk to you about it when you are loading on a campsite!! having used both systems in my opinion a-frames are way safer than trailers for towing cars. as to whether you need to tow a car it is different for everyone. i personally like to get up in the mountains/countryside and explore places that it would be impossible to get to with my van. the car gives me an enormous range compared to bikes or even a scooter and weather protection as well. regards sean


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## javea

Mrplodd said:


> Out of interest can anyone who has been fined in Spain tell me what EXACTLY they were fined for??? i.e what SPECIFIC offence did they commit ???
> 
> This is not any form of wind up it is a serious enquiry.


I haven't been fined for using an A frame in Spain, mine is stored in the garage there at the moment. However, I think that anyone who has been caught has actually been fined for breaking the law in Spain which prohibits the towing of a car by whatever means, not an A frame per se.

All car insurance policies include breakdown cover for that very reason, a broken down vehicle, or one that needs to be transported without a driver has to be moved by a Grau or transporter - end of.


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## Dougaitken

I have been followed for miles, passed and been passed by many Spanish Police units whilst A framing and have never been troubled by them.

Possibly whilst not being in conformity with their laws they had accepted I was a visitor and had decided to do nothing about it.

There are always police who decide for whatever reason to apply the law irrespective. The ones I have no time for are those that for instance issue a parking ticket on an English Reg car but did nothing about the Spanish Reg cars on either side. This was happening diepite the locals complaining about what they could see was happening.

My postion is that I will not use my A Frame in Spain as I do not see why I should do something the Spanish cannot do just because I am British and can do it here.


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## 113016

*Standing out*

Having been an International Trucker with many years of experience of driving in Spain and as I do not tow either a trailer or A frame I offer the following advise.
Which is, blend in and do not draw attention to your vehicle and then you should have fewer control checks. Unfortunately the A Frame will bring attention to your vehicle and can instigate the control in the first place. Once the Guardia have you parked at the side of the road, they than have the option of going through everything.
Better not to give them the opportunity in the first place.
I can also confirm that when I was trucking, I did get control checks when the Guarda noticed it was a right hand drive vehicle and also with the orange Dangerous Goods boards displayed.
When I drove left hookers and no orange boards displayed, i did get fewer checks.
This also applied to France but in a bigger way!
I think that the bottom line is that if you tow an A Frame, you must be prepared to pay a fine and also have an extra driver to drive the disconnected car.
Only the individual can decide if the advantages out weigh the disadvantages with more possible fines.


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## SamAhab

Dougaitken said:


> I have been followed for miles, passed and been passed by many Spanish Police units whilst A framing and have never been troubled by them.
> 
> Possibly whilst not being in conformity with their laws they had accepted I was a visitor and had decided to do nothing about it.
> 
> There are always police who decide for whatever reason to apply the law irrespective. The ones I have no time for are those that for instance issue a parking ticket on an English Reg car but did nothing about the Spanish Reg cars on either side. This was happening diepite the locals complaining about what they could see was happening.
> 
> My postion is that I will not use my A Frame in Spain as I do not see why I should do something the Spanish cannot do just because I am British and can do it here.


As I understand it, a Spanish resident (be he native or expat) would not, under Spanish law, be able to register his British made right-hand drive motor home with the habitation door on the left (UK nearside) in Spain. (I'm sure I have read that in these forums). If I am correct, would it not now mean, applying the logic in your last paragraph, that you would not drive your motorhome in Spain at all because the Spanish can't?


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## Dougaitken

They can also drive their Spanish Cars in the UK despite the fact they have not been Tested for nearly 2 years and we have to do it every year.

The list could be very long. 

I have made my decision with respect to A Frames.


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## teensvan

Hi.

Been out and about in Benidorm today and seen 1 German and 1 Dutch M/H both with A Frames pass the local police and neither were pulled up the police. You will find it is only the English that get picked on. There are loads of Dutch / Germans on El-Raco campsite and none have ever been stopped using an A Frame.

Get a set of german number plates on the van and all problems solved.

steve & ann. ----- teensvan


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## Noel

Mrplodd said:


> For the avoidance of doubt
> 
> ANYTHING that is being towed behind (attached) a Motor vehicle is legally defined as a TRAILER. (even if its a fully taxed and insured car its still classified as being a trailer)
> 
> Its a trailer exactly the same as caravan etc. Yes its still a motor vehicle, its the fact that it is being drawn by another motor vehicle that changes its definition to trailer.
> 
> As soon as its uncoupled from the towing vehicle it then ceases to be a trailer and revertes to be a Motor vehicle. Thats because it is a mechanically propelled vehicle made adapted or intended for use upon the highway. thats why caravans dont become motor vehicles when they are detached, they are not mechanically propelled :?
> 
> Being a trailer it has to conform to ALL the legislation in respect of trailers, thats why any such towed car SHOULD display two reflective triangle to show its a trailer!!!
> 
> The important one for A frames is that the brakes of the "trailer" must AUTOMATICALLY disengage when the towing vehicle and trailer is reversed WITHOUT any intervention from the driver of the towing vehicle (or any other occupant) That is simply not possible owing to how the over-run braking system works on (the vast majority) of A frames.
> 
> I accept that it seems plain daft that a car becomes a trailer when connected to a towing vehicle but thats how the law is written, (the wording is VERY clear and there is NO room for misinterpretation) it doesnt matter what you think, or what common sense says, its the legal definition that matters!


I know you're agin a-frames Mr Plodd but please stop perpetuating this rubbish that when you reverse with an aframe the brakes must auto disengage as unlike a caravan they do NOT lock on, and require "disengaging". When the over-run braking is completed and you stop, the brakes ARE NO LONGER ENGAGED and when smoothly reversing a properly set up combination, the friction in the over-run of the a-frame WILL NOT re-engage the brakes!!!!! AUTO "DISENGAGING" is completely INHERENT.

I have reversed as far as I need to dozens of times without intervention or ANY problems.


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## Noel

Mrplodd said:


> I am also of the view A frames are not legal in the UK for exactly the same reasons (pan european legislation) However as yet the Crown Prosecution Service have wimped out of taking a case to a court so that we (the motoring public) can have a DEFINATIVE and binding decision.
> 
> Personally, as one who has had to interpret the letter of the law for many years, I am happy that the law does not allow for them. Others disagree and that is their choice.
> 
> Ask any of the manufacturers to provide, in writing, that the use of their A frame dowes not break the law and that if you are fined they (the makers) will pay your fine for you.
> 
> I am willing to bet that NOT A SINGLE one will do that, if you have an A frame try asking the makers for that undertaking. If its not forthcoming you will know the reason why.
> 
> I think maybe I will contact a few and see what sort of response I get !!
> 
> Keep watching for the results of my research


I wish we still had our better informed Plod Dougie still on here! As Thieawin has said until he is blue in the face there is NO "Pan European legislation" relating to a-frames and I have given links to the D f T site which gives the situation here.

As to Spain I have stated many times that they are entitled to apply their laws as they see fit and I have no problem at all with that, I just wont be helping them out with their basket case economy by visiting and spending my wonga there!

Why should the CPS be so pedantic as to bring an un-needed case against a proven safe practice when they have so much more to do?


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## bktayken

Dougaitken said:


> They can also drive their Spanish Cars in the UK despite the fact they have not been Tested for nearly 2 years and we have to do it every year.
> 
> The list could be very long.


Not true.... they may do it and not get caught but they are driving illegally ..see this link.
The same applies in Spain 183 day in 12mth period reregister
There are also lots of forums posts regarding expats having there vehicles siezed on UK visits.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motorin...cle/ImportingAndExportingAVehicle/DG_10014623


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## Dougaitken

bktayken

What is wrong with my post.

I think I am right in saying that the Spanish have their cars MOT'ed Biannually.

Therefore if they visit the UK within the latter stages of that period they are using our roads when their car has not been tested for nearly 2 years.

I did not say they were here for any specific period. It may only be for a months holiday.

If I went to Spain for say 4 months which would be acceptable without having to register my car in Spain I would have to return to the UK if my MOT ran out whilst there. Unless I get it tested early before I went.

Please advise if I have interpreted it incorrectly.

Doug


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## thieawin

I love that you now suggest that the ITV, Spanish MOT, is every six months Biannual = 2 times per year.

Pedantic of me, I know......


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## Dougaitken

B***er

Your right Every 2 years was what I meant.

Time seems to pass quicker as you get older.


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## Noel

Could I suggest to the Mods that this "discussion" is moved to the Motorhome Towing forum where all these "agitated" newbies to the argument will find all their answers (including Spain) and also find it has been done to death many times over :wink: ?

I'll contribute this where if you start at the first page, look at the links, then go to page 14  and work back for some updates, you will get the picture :lol:


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## thieawin

Dougaitken said:


> B***er
> 
> Your right Every 2 years was what I meant.
> 
> Time seems to pass quicker as you get older.


biennial


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## bktayken

Dougaitken said:


> bktayken
> 
> What is wrong with my post.
> 
> I think I am right in saying that the Spanish have their cars MOT'ed Biannually.
> 
> Therefore if they visit the UK within the latter stages of that period they are using our roads when their car has not been tested for nearly 2 years.
> 
> I did not say they were here for any specific period. It may only be for a months holiday.
> 
> If I went to Spain for say 4 months which would be acceptable without having to register my car in Spain I would have to return to the UK if my MOT ran out whilst there. Unless I get it tested early before I went.
> 
> Please advise if I have interpreted it incorrectly.
> 
> Doug


OK Doug got the wrong end of the stick forgot you have a yearly MOT ours is annually after 10 years I think.


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## lookback

Currently I am in La Torretta, Benidorm And there are three motorhomes towing cars on a frames. They travelled from Calais to here and were not stopped at all.

Ian


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## loddy

I am crossing into France and cruising down through to Spain on the 30th January, of course towing with my trusty A frame I also have my gas mask handy.
Wish me luck as you wave me goodbye  

Loddy :wink:


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## Gazzer

Good luck Loddy - let me know how it goes. :wink:


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## loddy

Will do Gazzer, I notice your in Swindon, My birth place, Stratton.

Loddy


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