# Unlicenced for 7500kg



## AutoK

Was just browsing through some MH tech details it seems a lot of the larger coach built MH around 7m length have uprated suspension
eg Fiats camping car upgrade to gvw 3850kg.
As this technically takes the vehicle over the 3500kg weight limit for DVLA
As I understand people who have passed their driving test after 1997 no longer get 7500kg entitlement.
Just wandering how many people are driving around illegally.
I apologise if this has already been covered.


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## 88781

Good point raised whether it's been covered or not!  

Another thing to consider is putting a heavy trailer with a car on behind the M/H can also push the weight limit over the top too!

Basically if your M/H is of the 'larger breeds' and up on the weight limit, it's important that all potential drivers have the correct license to do so.

AFAIK there are no contingecy plans to retrospectively apply the 3500/4250kg limit to license holders (pre '97) holders will continue to enjoy that entitlement until 70yrs of age.

So when No.1 son asks "Dad may I borrow the Motorhome this weekend"
the law says no  

Regards M&D


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## Anonymous

I suspect that there are a few. Also probably some tuggers out there towing over their limit. And a few farmers. 
I think these limits should be more widely publicized. :?


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## 88724

Hi all

Interesting fact

There as only ever been one attempted prosecution for someone driving a motorhome which was over the licence holders "entitlement" here is a post I made elsewhere that ran and ran.

*I have been researching this for over a year now and thought American motor home drivers were just plain lucky to have got away with driving 38ft vehicles that weigh far in excess of 7.5 tonnes on ordinary licences (i.e. not LGV = Large Goods Vehicle or HGV Heavy goods Vehicle)

There are no legal precedents as no case as been "tried", however I have found one case that went to court three times, twice adjourned by the CPS and then on the third occasion they withdrew all charges and the court awarded paid all costs for the defendant!

The CPS cited lack of evidence however this does not ring true as they had Video Camera Evidence, Police on the ground witnesses, and the driver did not deny driving the vehicle, the vehicle was travelling in the Outside lane of the M6 a road position that is totally illegal for LGV and HGV vehicles.

Two Leading London firms of solicitors and a top Barrister were hired to act on behalf of the Driver Mr Mark Bishop by Travelworld, the main thrust of their defence was that the driver was driving a motor caravan and not a goods vehicle so therefore an LGV or HGV licence was not required.

It seems highly likely that the case was dropped because there are no separate rules for motor caravan licensing and that because an LGV and HGV is defined legally as a Goods carrying vehicle (over certain set weights) which obviously a motor caravan is not, that they have no way of bringing charges!! The really strange bit is that if that's the case no-one as got a licence to drive a motor caravan or every-ones full licence covers them for any weight of vehicle that is not a goods vehicle.

I have tried the relevant Transport departments and no-one can give any information as to what class a motor caravan comes under, all initially point to LGV and HGV and when I point out the Definition of HGV/LGV they have no idea of how to actually classify it! I have a string of "I'll get back to you" and they never have!

Have sent a fax today asking them to point out the relevant legislation to back their claim that 7.5 tonnes is the legal max for motor homes without an LGV or HGV licence.*

I have since been in contact with VOSA, Construction and Use depts, Ministry of transport and several other goverment agencies. Interestingly they all agree with what I say above.

The DVLA are the only body that are "squirming" asked about licencing for large motorhomes and they send a leaflet which clearly states that it is only their interpretation of the law. (ie that 3.5 Tonne and 7.5 tonne *goods vehicle* limits apply to motorhomes) I have asked them to quote the actual law that they are trying to expound in their leaflet.

After many "lost enquiries" I sent one registered which trhey had to answer this eventually made its way thru policy and the legal depts.

End result ? they still have not quoted a law that covers motorhomes, campervans etc, all the other goverment depts agree that a motorhome is not a goods vehicle and therefore not restricted in weight/licencing.

George
[/b]


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## Bazbro

What a fantastic post, George - VERY far-reaching, and of enormous importance to all of us (whether we drive these larger vehicles or not; we could at some future time). This lack of definition in law has tremendous implications, mostly of great benefit to us and our pastime/lifestyle, and I for one hadn't recognised this ***** in the law.

Moderator - parhaps make this a 'Sticky'?

Barry


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## 88781

Great post George,..what however would be the outcome, should Mr.Bishop had been driving a LGV Conversion in outside lane of M/Way.?

Is this where the construction and use clause rears it's ugly head,.after all, a huge percentage of M/H's are built on a LGV chassis?

How would self-bulders such as yourself be aware of such pitfalls, if there is no clear definition regarding Law and the Motorist in the future? I'd hate the thought of investing a huge amount of time, effort and money into a project that I may be able to drive,..or not :?


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## 88724

HGV are not allowed in the outside lane unless directed there by roadworks or a an pfficer of the law.

HGV's must have Tachographs fitted.

It doesnt matter what the Chassis started out as, if it has been reclassified as a motor caravan than its no longer an HGV (an HGV as a pretty good definition and a motorhome does not fit the definition)


Re my bus, it will be below 7.5 tonnes anyway, especially with empty water tanks ! but the axle rating is capable of around 9.2 tonnes :wink:


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## Anonymous

*how about speed limits?*

Well researched post on the weight issue George, thank you. Whatever the law, however, I feel we'd all be safer if those with 7500kg+ motorhomes held a Class C licence. As you know, you can't just drive a behemoth as if it were a car!

I am interested another, closely related topic… speed. Do 7500kg+ motorhomes follow the speed limits for buses & coaches, or for goods vehicles? Specifically…

1) Can we do 60, or 70 on the motorway?

2) How about 50 or 60 on dual carriageways?

3) And crucially, 40 or 50 on single carriageways?

It's not at all clear from the highway code.

Best regards


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## 88724

Hi Ben and lizzie.

Its length that counts now, motorcaravan over 3050 kg but under 12 metres (39.37008 ft) long.

Single 60
Dual 60
Motorway 70

From here devon-cornwall.police speed laws from Section 86 (1) and Schedule 6 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984

Its all pretty strange really there are people I know with pre 97 licence that should not be allowed anywhere near any vehicle bigger than a smart car, also tho there are people with a post 97 licence who could easily and confidently and Safely handle a large vehicle, basing it on licence date is a nonsense.

Likewise with trailers and caravans there are people that should never be allowed near them, but they are based on a "fluke" of licencing.

A large percentage of people using motorway system should not be, they have no idea, middle lane hogs seem to have no idea of the chaos they cause.

This I suppose is getting a bit off topic, on the original subject re weights unless anyone can come up with something thats a bit more specific about the law (have read the original over and over its seems to support "my case")

George


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## AutoK

Thank you for all your comments George.
Makes very interesting reading I am truly enlightened!!!

Maybe we shouldn't rock the boat too much else they bring in some bungling leglislation.
The law does seem to be a bit of a dogs breakfast though.
Thanks again George.


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## 88724

Hi AutoK

I dont think rocking the boat comes into it, this case was dropped because the law for vehicle weights applies to certain vehicles and not others.

A minibus can weigh 15 Tonnes and as long as it as the requisite number of seats is ok to drive on a normal licence.

The CPS dropped the case because there was no law broken, they were misled by the DVLA the only Goverment Dept that seems to think that it is ilegal.

All other Goverment depts back the premise that the Motorcaravan is not weight sensitive, yes it could break construction and use regs if it only had a single rear axle and exceeded 18 Tonnes, but even the largest conversions are well inside this !

The other important part is that those with pre 97 licences would be ok driving a motorcaravan over 3.5 Tonnes, but not the basic van it was based on ?!?

If they were to try and change it (they have had years since the one test case "that wasnt") they would give grandfather rights to all people who passed there test before the new legislation came into force.

The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999

The above link apears to say that it is illegal to drive Motor caravans of the bigger weights, but it also refers to the classifications of the 1988 Road Traffic act which again only applies weights to Goods Vehicles, ask the construction and use dept and they say quite catergorically that a Motor caravan IS NOT A GOODS Vehicle.

Road Traffic act 1988

Have fun they are both tiring reads

George


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## Anonymous

Interesting.
I have just checked what my licence actually says - I am licensed to drive:
B Motor cars or light vans with up to 9 seats and up to 3500kg.
C1 Lorries between 3500 kg and 7500 kg.
D1 Buses with between 9 and 16 passenger seats not used for hire or reward.

Taken literally this means I cannot drive a motor car or light van over 3500 kg or a lorry under that weight. But I can drive a bus no matter how much it weighs as long as there are no more than 16 seats & I don't charge the passengers.

:?:


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## 88724

Hi Caz of the border area

Is your licence the old Pictogram paper type? ie it shows a lorry which is then classified under the road traffic act according to Light Goods Vehicle etc? 

A motor caravan is also a legally defined vehicle which does not have a weight category, DVLA have started "speaking" very carefully and saying Vehicle over 3500kg Rather than LGV HGV MGV etc etc, trying to catch motohomes in the GV net.

George


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## 93795

The latest definitions seem to be :-
B = Cars - Motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg having not more than 8 passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg.
C1 = Medium sized vehicles - Vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailer up to 750kg.
C = Large Vehicles - Vehicles over 3500kg with a trailer up to 750kg.
D1 = Minibuses - Vehicles with between 9 and 16 passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg.
D = Buses - Any bus with more than 8 passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg.
'+E' on any of these allows a heavier trailer as long as the combination does not exceed 12000kg. Except for Group C+E which allows the trailer to be any weight above 750kg.
They seem to have dropped references to Goods Vehicles, LGV, HGV etc.
It seems that if you don't have a trailer then you are not licenced to drive.
All a bit odd.
Phil.


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## 88724

Hi Phil

Yes but these are defined by 

The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999

Which refers and amends to 

Road Traffic act 1988 


Which still goes thru all the HGV LGV rigmaroll wn=hich according to construction and use does not apply to motor caravans

George


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## Bazbro

Just because "they" (DVLA, et al) speak of "Vehicles..." does not automatically mean that this refers to motorhomes. I see what George is getting at, and I think that he's right. The legislation defines "Goods Vehicles", and a motorhome (normally) is NOT a Goods Vehicle (although perhaps based on one) so therefore a lot of these restrictions that "they" quote simply do not apply. I think that's the gist of what you're saying, isn't it, George? I have always believed that motorhomes, to all intents and purposes, are "motor cars"?

Barry


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## RobMD

Sounds like the law as it stands benefits us - lets not shake the cage too much in case we spoil it for ourselves!


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## 91727

Very interesting thread as I have been wanting my son to drive our 4500kg motorhome, but as he passed his test in 1998 I had assumed he couldn't until he passed another test to cover up to 7500kg.

Having read all the above, it seemed that maybe he could drive it after all, so I rang my insurance company to get him added to the policy. They won't insure under 25's and he is 23 so that skuppered it immediately, but more importantly they stated that the insurance would be void unless he held an updated licence.

So, despite any interpretation of the weight laws, it would seem that the insurance companies would see this as a get out from paying up!


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## 88724

Hi 

I take it you are not with a specialist insurance company, the reason this comes to mind is that having spoken to Quite a few Drivers of american motorhomes (over 7.5 tonne) that they do not have HGV licences and none have ever had trouble with a claim due to not having the licence that the DVLA says they should have (but the law apears to say otherwise)

Mentioning it to the insurance company, could also have set them off they panic at the slightest thing, its strange because no matter what vehicle I have insured, I have never once been asked about my licence, other than the standard how long have you held a full licence?

George


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## bigfoot

Is this the same situation in Europe? The licence issue came about because of Europe's 'harmonisation' of driving licences-more like disharmony. Can any of our European cousins clarify?


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## 88724

Hi 

Thats why they are "trying" to change it, then we will be in "harmony"

The thing is that its such a pigs ear now.

I think they are trying to NOT give grandfather rights on the big motorhomes.

They are giving a free provisional on HGV to encourage people to take it, the thing that erks me on this is that we will then get clobbered with the medical and rollover fee's these oviously are not terrible if you are making money with a goods vehicle but are to High for leisure vehicle purposes.

George


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## 88724

Hi 

if its ok here its OK for europe so as long as its legal here it follows you over like the 7.5 tonne limit we are now in line with europe at 3.5 tonnes if passed after 1997 those that passed before get 7.5tonnes and the euro wallers accept it .

Geo


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## 92221

Never mind the Law to do with 7500kg motorhomes to licence or not to licence the major worry is your insurance company!!! In the unfortunate event that anyone has an accident there is the possibility that the motorhome will be weighed and technically they could refuse to pay out. 


Jak

'If it's got wheels, [email protected] or hooves it's going to cost you money!'


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## 88724

Jak

Not sure how you work that out, if its legal to drive and you are insured then how can they?

Also most of the large American motorhomes you see on the road are driven by ordinary licence holders, The insurance companies have yet to refuse a claim based on the lack of an HGV licence.

I have spoken to quite a few now and only one had HGV and then only because it was his Job.

George


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## 92221

Insurance companies will take a premium off anyone without too many questions other than previous convictions etc etc. A dealer in American rv's raised the whole business of 'what if the weight was over 7500kgs' after an accident. We all know insurance companies and the small print plus get out clauses.
I can go and get insurance for a 40' artic now. No questions about licences etc.

Jak


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## 88724

Hi Jak


Thats sidestepping the Issue, yes I could get an Artic insured too and it would be worthless insurance as I am not licence to drive an Artic.


In the case of motorhomes there are no weight limits, according to all goverment depts bar one, the DVLA are the only people who claim that a motorhome must fit a weight category and need a hgv licence when over 7.5 Tonnes, when pressed they cannot quote the law which backs it up, their legal dept could not quote the law either and came back with the rather childish retort that they do not have to tell me anything, even though thats the whole point of their existence.

All the other evidence and LAW says different.

If you do not want to drive one, then dont. If you want to persuade anyone that it is illegal then show me the law. Not one goverment Dept can show any reason why I cannot drive a motorhome that is heavier than 7.5 tonnes 

The DVLA
Construction and Use
Ministryof Transport
Dept of Transport
The Police Transport section
Vehicle Inspectorate
VOSA
The Crown Prosecution Service 

(see above dropped the only case ever like a hot potato, due to lack of evidence, actually all the evidence is still there it was lack of a relevent law that buggered them up)

If none of the above can say you are not allowed to drive it how would the insurance company prove otherwise? In fact most of the above actually agree with what I say, that there is no restriction on motorhomes, ring a few yourself and find out.

I am not saying it is even sensible to drive a large motorhome, I would cope, many others would not, a lot of people cannot even cope with the vehicles they are licenced for !

George


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## 88742

George wrote........



> They are giving a free provisional on HGV to encourage people to take it, the thing that erks me on this is that we will then get clobbered with the medical and rollover fee's these oviously are not terrible if you are making money with a goods vehicle but are to High for leisure vehicle purposes.


I have just paid my HGV 'renewal fees' and don't consider them to be excessive (I paid £50 for a medical, and that was it!!). I don't use my HGV licence at present but who knows what the future might bring (Are you listening, Santa!!) my current licence has to be renewed at 5 year intervals, so I don't consider £10 a year excessive to hang on to it.


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## 92221

George,

You are right about the Law and it is grey to say the least. I own and drive vehicles up to 7.5 tonnes commercially and on delivery of my 9 tonnes motorhome I will be taking my LGV Cat C licence just to be sure. I don't want to be a 'test' case.
My one and only concern is that insurance companies are a law unto themselves and they will find some way to get out of paying a claim if they can smell an opportunity. As the Law stands at present I totally agree with you that we can all drive a motorhome over 7.5 tonnes; the Law is interpreted by the Man driving the jam sandwich and they have enough to do at present.

Jak


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## 88724

Hi Jak

I dont even think they have a "grey" leg to stand on, there just doesnt appear to be a weight category for motorhomes, the people who decide weights etc say if none is written in law for a particular application, then construction and use says its 18 Tonnes on a single axle and cant remember exactly what they said for mutliple axles (44 Tonnes?)

There are set categories for many vehicles, the one that the DVLA are trying to push refer to goods vehicles, but the construction and Use people say that (most) motor caravans cannot be squeezed into a goods vehicle description. The ones that can would be classed as living vans which is different again, but does have good vehicle weights and licencing applied because of the commercial goods and burden carrying.

Also if the motorhome is a goods vehicle over 7.5 tonnes it would need

1. a Tacho fitted operational and used ( there are some exemptions but none that apply to motorhomes )
2. Plating for weights according to UK law, Imported HGV have to be replated American motorhomes at 40ft and over 7.5 tonnes dont appear to be replated.
3. HGV "MOT" testing
4. HGV are not allowed in outside lane on Motorway
5. HGV are restricted to 56 Mph

Anyone know of a big American motorhomes, that fit the above description?

George


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## 92221

George,

Forget the Law and the DVLA and the other bods. I can see an insurance company refusing to pay out against a claim based on a motorhome being over 7.5 tonnes and the driver's licence being non LGV. Insurance companies do not need to be covered by the Law to make up their 'Rules'. It is guaranteed that somewhere in the small print there is a clause to cover them against any and all eventualities. As I've said before I am not going to risk it.

Jak


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## 88724

Hi Jack 

No-one is trying to force you or anyone else to do anything, just passing information so that people can make an informed choice.

The LGV you mention, the last 2 letters GV = Goods Vehicle

Motorhomes are not Goods Vehicles as defined By law.


Insurance companies have not yet ever refused to pay out on the above scenario, so unless none of the thousands of very large american motorhomes have ever been involved in a shunt over the last 30 + years then I would say that is a good indicator that they are not going to start now. bearing in mind that a great proportion do not have any increased licence.

George


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## Bazbro

I wonder whether the Insurance Ombudsman would agree to the Insurance Companies 'making it up as they go along'? But if it's in the 'small print' then it's there for anyone to see. Just look.

Barry


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## 92221

George,

I more than realise your not trying to force anything and my point about 'risk' is purely my cynical view towards things like insurance companies; banks; mortgage companies; financial advisors; stockbrokers; politicians; Disney; George Bush; Marilyn Monroe's death; aliens from outer space etc etc.  
I would not like to give someone the opportunity to make some ground breaking decision.
I would add here that one importer of American Rv's will not import the big stuff unless one produces the appropriate licence. Have you seen the Cowboy Cadillac site? Drive one of those on an ordinary licence!!!

I hope the gales and nonsense are not affecting you and the rest of our glorious membership.

Jak


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## teemyob

*What is a Sticky?*



BarryandSue said:


> What a fantastic post, George - VERY far-reaching, and of enormous importance to all of us (whether we drive these larger vehicles or not; we could at some future time). This lack of definition in law has tremendous implications, mostly of great benefit to us and our pastime/lifestyle, and I for one hadn't recognised this ***** in the law.
> 
> Moderator - parhaps make this a 'Sticky'?
> 
> Barry


Unsure what a Sticky is?


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## autostratus

*Re: What is a Sticky?*



teemyob said:


> BarryandSue said:
> 
> 
> 
> Moderator - parhaps make this a 'Sticky'?
> Barry
> 
> 
> 
> Unsure what a Sticky is?
Click to expand...

Top of the Home page you will see:-
*Sticky Posts in the last 30 Days*

These are threads which are considered important enough to have them maintained in a position where they don't drop out of sight if there are no posts to the thread for a little while.

Moderators have the authority to make a thread 'sticky' if appropriate to do so.


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## 97078

The rules are confusing,my Laika has been upgraded to 3850 from 3500 and now is classed as a Private heavy goods vehicle,so what speed limits apply now. When I was at the Shepton show this year I queried the licence required to drive the large coach style M/H on show and was told one must have a HGV licence, I do have a full PCV licence to drive buses & coaches & was told this wouldn't allow me to drive that, that from the senior salesman !!!!!!!! Brian


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## joe2369

God my head is hurting now. Who has being "DONE" by the fuzz for being overweight is there anybody who can say yes I have being pulled weighed and fined .I have being driving campervans/ motorhomes for nearly 20 years and not being stopeed once in uk and one time coming over the pyranees checked for drugs etc 1991


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## zaskar

Well done indead George. I'm extremely impressed with the amount of effort & research you've obviously been putting in on this subject and I'm gratefull considering that it's possible my next rig will have to be over the limit cos wifey needs another slideout for all her shoes! .
Over the past few years, I've been through a similar process with insurance companies regarding policies for Full Timers and I know how frustrating and infuriating it can be to talk to officious people who dont really have a full grasp of thier subject but still insist that they are right!
Whilst I don't want to 'rock the boat', I will not give up on this subject as I do not see why FullTimers and Motorhomers in general should be stiffled by petty beurocracy when all we want to do is drive our rigs (what-ever size) carefully and enjoy the countryside.
Hopefully, given time and effort, we'll both get a satisfactory result.


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## sailor

Having bought a van with MGW of 3800 I read this series of posts with interest.

However:

According to the info supplied with my new photocard licence, cat C1 is a "medium sized vehicle", weight between 3500 and 7500. 

The latest DVLA publications specifically state that for motorhomes it is the weight that counts, .

I hear what George says about the law, and maybe DVLA is wrong - but I doubt it! Driving a vehicle over 3500 without a C1 licence has to be asking for trouble. The police will believe the DVLA, more importantly if you have an accident you then DO have to show your licence, and if it does not cover the groups as reqired then you will be uninsured.

I for one would not wish to risk taking on the DVLA, insurance companies and for that matter the EU legislative bodies. I am not a legal expert but it maybe that EU legislation, along with parliamentary approval to accept EU law in the UK, is the provides the legal cover rather than the laws that George mentions - but I am guessing, I am just not willing to disregard DVLA instructions.

I think this is all in line with current EU thinking, but I understand that there is an EU proposal to allow motorvans up to 4250 to be driven on a B licence subject to some conditions, which would become law in UK if passed (albeit not retrospectively)


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## eddievanbitz

Hi George, excellent explanation to a emotive subject (never thought that I would say that!) Your investigations have gone done exactly the same lines as ours (my wife Lyn drives the van as much as I do) and I know the people involved in the Travelworld debacle and remember it very well.

The last very big motorhome I had was 36'9" and it was coming up for three years old when I sold it. The guy that wanted to buy it asked if I would MOT it for them. Because of the size I took it to the DOT testing centre at Norton Fitzwarren, Taunton where I was told in no uncertain terms that it was NOT a HGV it only needed a Class 4 MOT, not a Class 7 so I should take it to a private garage and stop wasting their time! I argued that no garage locally could take that sized motorhome, again they disagreed and sent me off to a private garage that could accommodate my sized motorhome. (to be fair to them I have had bigger vehicles MOT'd there since (Class 4) I think the commandant that ran reception has retired, and they remembered that they are civil servants again) 

A life long friend who is involved in the insurance industry investigated and tried to make arrangements to take his test in his RV and was told absolutely no way, and he would have to take it in a "HGV"

A customer who runs a large driver training school and has a 40' Monaco made enquiries with the Department Of Transport to see if it could be used to train and test people that wanted to drive large RV's again an emphatic no.

DVLA say we need licence entitlement the Department of Transport say we don't I fail to see how an insurance company could refuse to cover and liability under these circumstances.

As for litigation or prosecution? Imagine the Crown states that the motorhome was being driven illegally. The Department Of Transport refuses to test the motorhome, or lets you take a test in the motorhome, tells you to have a car Class 4 MOT on our motorhome not a HGV Class 7 No driving restrictions by way of limited hours and you don’t have to have a Taco on the motorhome either 

I haven't had time to check so forgive me if I am wrong, but my memory tells me that as far as the DOT construction and use is concerned, motorhomes fall into the "other" category along with play buses and mobile libraries" The important phrase in all of this is "for reward"

For the record we drive a 30' Minnie Winnie C class RV and for our main holiday down on the Med somewhere, we tow our 23' Marlin RIB which makes us about 57' in total We have been driving for years and would happily take a test if there was one suitable for the type of vehicle that we own and drive, but we have no intention of learning about air lines, trailers, slippers and taco's 

Doesn't mean that we are right or wrong, it is our interpretation of very bad law, and until someone can point us to a clear, concise and definite piece of legislation we will keep enjoying our motorhome.


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## 88724

Hi Eddie

Thanks, that adds quite a few good points that I didnt know (Taking test in RV not allowed as ot HGV and the Driving school) gotta fly to work now, but dont DVLA run driving test's and DVLA are the only ones that claim a motorhome is an HGV (for licence purposes, revenue or road tax is different)

C&U Marsham agree its not an HGV

HGV legal definition is very specific for hire and reward and burden.

Tacho's RV dont have if HGV they must have one (and they are not on the exempted list

The evidence keeps on mounting up.


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## 97600

Hi

I have some logs to throw on this fire!

We are in the process of buying our first MH, an Iveco Daily based vehicle with a gross weight of 6500 kg, my old style car licence entitles me to drive a vehicle up to 7500 kg, and gross train weight upto 8250 kg.... so no problems there then.



This vehicle is classed as a Private Heavy Goods Vehicle (PHGV). It gets this taxation classification as its weight exceeds 3500 kg.
Being a MH with a PHGV classification I expected it would, for MOT purposes, be treated as such and require a MOT when it became 3 years old.
NOT SO..... It should have the MOT one year from new.

The MH 'grey' rule applies. 
The Vehicle Operator Service Agency (VOSA) apply criteria to MH MOT requirements as follows:
Does the MH have a 'GARAGE' at the back, which is 'capable of carrying goods or burden.' (It is defined as a 'LIVING VAN')
If it does then forget its a MH but just look to the vehicle's weight.
If the weight exceeds 3500 kg then it is treated as an HGV and needs a 'Plating Certificate' and an MOT when 1 year old!

This test can only be undertaken at a Goods Vehicle Testing Station.

How's that fire now!

Ratty


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## 88724

Hello Sailor (oh you are awful, but I like you) Sorry Dick Emery just sprang to mind

Re DVLA ring and ask them to quote the law that backs their opinion, I have and they cannot point to the legislation.

Also read the DVLA publicationns again they state that they are DVLA opinion, they say to speak to MArsham re any vehicle classification and Marsham agree with me (MArsham is the Construction and Use dept and they are specifically mentioned regarding vehicle classifiction in the legislation)

Also If you believe DVLA do not forget to get a Tacho fitted and stick to driver hours as you are not covered by an exemption from having a Tacho on and HGV.

Also you need a Plating certificate as an MOT is no good for an HGV

Think it through, If you believe DVLA then you are driving an ilegal vehicle.

Bilge rat a garage doesnt make it an HGV itsd far more complex than that.


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## sallytrafic

Bilge-Rat said:


> Hi
> 
> This vehicle is classed as a Private Heavy Goods Vehicle (PHGV). It gets this taxation classification as its weight exceeds 3500 kg.
> Being a MH with a PHGV classification I expected it would, for MOT purposes, be treated as such and require a MOT when it became 3 years old.
> NOT SO..... It should have the MOT one year from new.
> 
> The MH 'grey' rule applies.
> The Vehicle Operator Service Agency (VOSA) apply criteria to MH MOT requirements as follows:
> Does the MH have a 'GARAGE' at the back, which is 'capable of carrying goods or burden.'
> If it does then forget its a MH but just look to the vehicle's weight.
> If the weight exceeds 3500 kg then it is a HGV and needs a 'Plating Certificate' and an MOT when 1 year old!
> 
> This test can only be undertaken at a Goods Vehicle Testing Station.
> 
> How's that fire now!
> 
> Ratty


To someone without a vested interest (mine is under 3000Kg) this new ruling seems as arbitrary as what went before.

Also I have to say whether backed up by relevent legislation or not it seems right that a large vehicle needs different rules to a small one even if used solely for pleasure and the existing muddle needs to be sorted out. I just hope that you larger RV owners don't end up legislated off the road.

(Off Topic -I doubt that the DVLA is a competent authority - judging from the item on a consumer programme last evening when it was shown that they will give your details to just about any organisation that pays the fee.)

Regards Frank


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## BERTHA

I would tend to say I am an experience driver and I am still tuning my road skills even after over 25 years of driving.

Last Year we purchased our first MH which was over 5 ton and I must say on our first day and even now, it is useful to be an experienced driver.

I would have some concern, because of a lack of experience, letting my 20 year old son out in her (MH).

I am sure in most conditions he might be ok but we don't have perfect and consistent roads and drivers.

Maybe the answer is to limit the weight/length to the number of years of driving experience, so maybe our son could not drive anything over 3500kg for say 5 years after passing his test and only then providing he had held a clean licence during this time

H


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## autostratus

BERTHA said:


> Maybe the answer is to limit the weight/length to the number of years of driving experience,...........


Great.

I'm 72 in May, used to hold a HGV3 (gave it up when I reached 60) and have held a license since 1953.

Is there a RV big enough for me to drive? 

Seriously though. It is a nightmare to us common folk and I_would_say it is time it was sorted out but for the fact that it may penalise some innocent mh drivers who don't deserve to be prohibited.


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## sallytrafic

Bilge-Rat said:


> Hi
> 
> The Vehicle Operator Service Agency (VOSA) apply criteria to MH MOT requirements as follows:
> Does the MH have a 'GARAGE' at the back, which is 'capable of carrying goods or burden.' (It is defined as a 'LIVING VAN')
> If it does then forget its a MH but just look to the vehicle's weight.
> If the weight exceeds 3500 kg then it is treated as an HGV and needs a 'Plating Certificate' and an MOT when 1 year old!
> 
> This test can only be undertaken at a Goods Vehicle Testing Station.


Who are the VOSA and how do they fit in ie how do they get involved I thought DVLA issued all the paperwork?

Regards Frank


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## 88724

Hi Frank

Briefly

*VOSA is the merger of the Vehicle Inspectorate (VI) and the Traffic Area Network (TAN) division of the Department for Transport (DfT). We have approximately 2,500 staff, 1,700 of which are based at our operational locations across Great Britain. The aim of the agency is to contribute to the improvement of the road safety and environmental standards, and to the reduction of vehicle crime.*

VOSA website

Broadly speaking Bilge Rat is right, in that it *can* be classed as a living van, however just because a motorhome as a garage, it doesnt have to be classed a living van, here is the legal defination. direct from VOSA in the course of my research. Faxed recd by me 26th Jan 2004

FAO George Matthews

Subject Definitions as requested

"living van" means a vehicle, whethor mechanically propelled or not, which is used as living accomodation by one or more persons and which *is also used for the carriage of goods or burden *which are not needed by such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle; Living vans are clessed as goods vehicles and depending on their weight are therefore in either class IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or are subject to HGV Plating and testing.

Basically this is for Living and business, like a showmans van or say you did shows and carried stock, it is not applicable to a motorcaravan which is defined thus

"motor caravan" means a motor vehicle (not being a living van)
which is constructed or adapted for the carraige of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanantly installed equipment the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users; *Motor caravans are not classed as goods vehicles for MOT test puposes and are therefore in class IV or V depending on their seating capacity but regardless of their size or weight *

BTW DVLA like point you in the direction of all these other depts, only thing is all these other depts actually say the opposite to DVLA

VOSA Also state that unless a Goods vehicle over 7.5 tonnes is exempted then it must have a tacho fitted, I asked if motorhomes over 7.5 Tonnes required a Tacho and was told no as it cannot be classed as a goods vehicle.

Marsham construction and use disagree with DVLA definition (and DVLA admit that Marsham decide on vehicle classification

Ministry of Transport disagree

Legislation does not agree with DVLA opinion and they cannot show where their definition is written in law. After months of correspondnce with DVLA they could not find a single shred of law that agrees with them.


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## 98452

I have C1 + E (test pasted 1971) so does that mean I can drive a 7.5 ton RV with a car on a braked frame of say 1500 KGs?

I am diabetic tablet controlled so extremely interested ion this thread.


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## 104471

*motor home weights*

Let me put every ones mide at rest with regards to vehicle weights,,

after driving H G Vs for over 35 years i e , car trasporters & tankers,,

let me give an a case that is still true to day,, When do you need a

H G V LICENSE,, answer, when it's constructed to transport goods,,

let me go further, When driver is delivering the unit new from the factoryi e (the front part

of an articulated vehicle, the fifth wheel coupling is carried in the cab

and in that case it could not pull a trailor, and can not carry goods,,

AND IN THAT CASE WILL NOT HAVE TO HAVE H G V LICENSE,,,

PART TWO,

Lets take the case of the bus i e P S V Driver,

Take all the seets out of the bus,And just leave 8 in place and it's not

PUBLIC SERVICE VEHICLE ANY MORE,,,

PART THREE,

TRUST ME THE ANSWER is CORRECT, YOUR MOTOT HOME IS

REGISTERED AS PRIVATE, YOU DONT CARRY GOODS, & YOU DONT

CARRY PASSENGERS,, SO THE ABOVE CAN DRIVEN ON ORDINARY

DRIVING LICENSE

REMEMBER H G V / L G V & P S V / P C V VEHICLES
COME UNDER CONSTUCTION & USE

THE WEIGHT AND SIZE OF THE VEHICLE IS ON COSIQUENCE

SO GO ON ALL YOU GUYS PUT YOUR MOTOR HOME ON THE ROAD

AND LOOK OUT FOR THE SUSSEXTROTTER


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## gromett

Dragged an old one from the stack :lol: 

To be on the safe side and not risk getting into trouble for trusting arm chair solicitors/policemen/judges I have taken the view that:

If the Motorhome is under 3500Kg then the Normal car licence (B) is ok.

If it is over 3500Kg but under 7500Kg then a C1 is required. Pre 97 licenses already have it. Post 97 need to take the test.

If it is over 7500Kg then the Full C is required.

If you are towing anything (except a caravan) then there is a 750Kg limit and the relevent +E entitlement test should be taken.

Caravans seem to be excluded from the 750Kg limit for some reason 

These are just my views and are just to be on the safe side as the various agency's don't seem to know what is what but it may only be a matter of time.... I know a lot of people will disagree but I feel safer doing my best to comply with the law or as near as is possible. Until they bring out a motorhome classification with limits this is as close as I can get.

BTW: In 1992 HGV stopped being used and it is now LGV. I was told this was for EU harmonisation as some euro countries don't have a word for heavy (LOL) so Large was used.

Karl


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## 100626

I've been driving now for 40+ years, having had HGV3, and full PSV over the years, and I was always under the impression that you could drive a bus on an ordinary licence, providing you were not carrying passengers for gain or reward.
When I first applied to drive buses, I was taken out on a 5 mile "trial run", to see if I had the aptitude, and surely the Traffic Superintendent and inspector would not have allowed me to take the wheel of a Double Decker with a crash gearbox if they were liable to prosecution and losing their jobs for sanctioning such a journey.
I found this on the DVLA website...........
Holders of a full category B (car) driving licence may drive any of the vehicles listed below:

* a passenger carrying vehicle manufactured more than 30 years before the date when it is driven and not used for hire or reward or for the carriage of more than 8 passengers.

Mind you, modern buses are much easier to drive than these 30 year old relics with crash boxes.
Bob


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## gromett

"manufactured more than 30 years before the date when it is driven"

Doesn't that mean the vehicle MUST be 30 years old?

Karl


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## cobaltkoala

gromett said:


> . Pre 97 licenses already have it. Post 97 need to take the test.
> Karl


Don't forget though, if you have a pre 97 licence and it is updated for medical reasons (And be aware there are a LOT of medical reasons that need advising to ensure insurance validity)

YOUR LICENCE CONVERTS TO THE POST 97 FORMAT of <3500


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## Guest

*licence dvla*

all this 3500/7500 etc... there is another thing that may trouble one! after the age of 70years the dvla take a lot of things off ones licence with regards to weight and size, ie I used to drive hgv before and after it came into the rules...took the beams for the M6 / M1 / darlington bye pass and many others really long loads, now turned 70; now having had a downgrade of licence, can only drive vehicles up to 3500, and tow only up to a specified weight, unless I take a test every year, I'm really fit, have good eyesight, and would no doubt pass, but as my MH is under 3500 I've no need to; (point being is there anyone out there that don't know this rule and are close to 70 and considering a MH over this weight limit? ...Brian... :roll:


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## 101002

RR said:


> I have C1 + E (test pasted 1971) so does that mean I can drive a 7.5 ton RV with a car on a braked frame of say 1500 KGs?
> 
> I am diabetic tablet controlled so extremely interested ion this thread.


The D V L A ARENT INTERESTED ABOUT YOU BEING DIABETIC AS LONG AS YOUR NOT ON INSULIN

Gertrude Sorry i left the thingy on


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## SidT

*Re: licence dvla*



bitou said:


> all this 3500/7500 etc... there is another thing that may trouble one! after the age of 70years the dvla take a lot of things off ones licence with regards to weight and size, ie I used to drive hgv before and after it came into the rules...took the beams for the M6 / M1 / darlington bye pass and many others really long loads, now turned 70; now having had a downgrade of licence, can only drive vehicles up to 3500, and tow only up to a specified weight, unless I take a test every year, I'm really fit, have good eyesight, and would no doubt pass, but as my MH is under 3500 I've no need to; (point being is there anyone out there that don't know this rule and are close to 70 and considering a MH over this weight limit? ...Brian... :roll:


Hi. I am now over 70, I had C1+E on my licence because of " grandfather rights". I have type 2 diabetes plus ocular mysthena controlled by steroids. I have recently passed the medical and now have a licence with all the previous entitlements for the next *3 years*
If you are fit I would go for the C1 +E or any other entitlements you had right now, you never know what the future holds.
Cheers Sid


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## Guest

Hi Guys, I'm new here only joined today, so bear with me for a moment. I am considering buying a panel van based MH as my wife's health means that narrowboating is now beyond her physically. 

This topic of licencing is a real web of worms I am 66 in November. I used to drive 7-1/2 tonners for a living and mostly they had to use tachos although not always. I(f you hire a 7-1/2 tonner from your local hire base and use it for personal use, e.g. moving house, no tacho needed. If a company needed a truck and hired the same vehicle to carry goods -even if they owned the goods. A tacho was required.

We (as a company) used to tow an exhibition trailer to shows with a 3.5t dropside truck making the gross train weight 5500kg we did not run a tacho as the trailer was a "special purpose trailer" i.e. a non goods carrying trailer. Explaining this to your local bobby when stopped was sometimes a nightmare. 

My brother was a HGV test driver working for a large vehicle manufacturer and was once stopped at Milton Keynes Service Area for driving a new (test) vehicle on trade plates carrying a test load. The copper refused to allow him to continue his journey as he "was driving a loaded vehicle on trade plates" His boss was more confident and told him to get back in the truck and bring it back to base. The copper threatened to arrest him if he did that! So now what? Luckily a Sergeant arrived and sent my brother on his way. My point is that if you are stopped you are at the mercy of the copper that stops you.

Incidentally 7.5tonne goods vehicles now have to have a digital tacho, are governed as per HGV's and are banned from outside lane of three lane highways.

Having seen another thread on this forum, I will now avoid a Sevel produced van!

Thanks for your indulgence

Tco


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## SaddleTramp

Bilge-Rat said:


> Hi
> 
> I have some logs to throw on this fire!
> 
> We are in the process of buying our first MH, an Iveco Daily based vehicle with a gross weight of 6500 kg, my old style car licence entitles me to drive a vehicle up to 7500 kg, and gross train weight upto 8250 kg.... so no problems there then.
> 
> This vehicle is classed as a Private Heavy Goods Vehicle (PHGV). It gets this taxation classification as its weight exceeds 3500 kg.
> Being a MH with a PHGV classification I expected it would, for MOT purposes, be treated as such and require a MOT when it became 3 years old.
> NOT SO..... It should have the MOT one year from new.
> 
> The MH 'grey' rule applies.
> The Vehicle Operator Service Agency (VOSA) apply criteria to MH MOT requirements as follows:
> Does the MH have a 'GARAGE' at the back, which is 'capable of carrying goods or burden.' (It is defined as a 'LIVING VAN')
> If it does then forget its a MH but just look to the vehicle's weight.
> If the weight exceeds 3500 kg then it is treated as an HGV and needs a 'Plating Certificate' and an MOT when 1 year old!
> 
> This test can only be undertaken at a Goods Vehicle Testing Station.
> 
> How's that fire now!
> 
> Ratty


Well I can throw some on this one, My personal MH is now a 29' BUT i have just sold a Coachmen Mirada Double slider 34' it was 3 years old and when taxing it at my local taxation office (DVLA) Sheffield I have never been asked for a test certificate the vehicle was well over the 3500kg I did have an accident and was paid out without hesitation or question, My vehicle was never "Plated" either as an HGV or for Hire or reward which is a totally seperate "Plate" or as a "Psv" as it happens I have experience and Used to be a holder of a HGV licence but I let it go years ago as I have now retired, When I sold it just before it was three years old it was tested at our Councils local testing station as Cat4 and I have been checked in Switzerland for weight etc and no problems my son who passed his test in 1998 drove it and he has also been stopped and also been checked with no problem, Needless to say I totally agree with george, BUT there will always be the poeple who want to do things "Strictly to the letter of the Law" and that is thier right, as for asking an insurance company dont bother as only the underwriters know what they cover and if you ask you will NOT get an answer because they dont know, I have been trying to check on these items for about 2 years now and I am still no closer to finding out, And as far as the insurance companies getting out of it in the small print, thats simple read it you MUST have a copy of ALL the small print by law, What I will state here also is that I have also asked our testing station about this and thier thoughts are that as far as they are concerned it is as follows.
1, Does it carry goods for financial gain, if yes it is a Goods vehicle, If No then it is Not a goods vehicle. and therefore does NOT need plating or a Tacho and the Cat 4 test applies.
2, Does it carry fare paying passengers, If yes then it comes under the relevant laws and tests as defined by its seating capacity, If No then it does NOT need plating.
3, Does it carry goods for financial gain AND have living accomodation, If Yes then it is a living van, If No and is designed to carry goods ie a Garage, And have person living on board then it is NOT a Living van.
another point they also made is that if it was regarded as a goods vehicle it would need gross and tare and axle weight plates and many other things.
By the way I have a pre 1997 license and am also a Tablet Diabetic and my license has not been reduced.
Absolutely Great Post


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## aultymer

Strange to see this very old thread re appear. It dates from before my membership and leaves me wondering who George Telford is and where is he now? 
I have to take issue with Saddle Tramp on the subject of 'Living Vans'. 
I was quoted from the horses mouth (I will try to track down the email) that if you carry 'any goods not necessary for living in the van' then it becomes a living van under the existing legislation. 
I specifically asked about carrying a dinghy and outboard or scooter and was told that made my MH a 'living van'. 
I regard this as a particularly perverted interpretation of regulations which were designed to define a Motorhome (ie it must have certain fixtures) and uses the word 'goods', which to everyone else implies trade goods, as a definition for anything other than the fixtures required. 
In effect this interpretation could mean your van is, in law, a 'living van' if you carry a corkscrew since strictly speaking, no matter how much some of us need it, a corkscrew is not 'necessary' for your occupation of the van. 

Why does this matter? I understand different MOT rules apply to living vans.


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## SaddleTramp

aultymer said:


> Strange to see this very old thread re appear. It dates from before my membership and leaves me wondering who George Telford is and where is he now?
> I have to take issue with Saddle Tramp on the subject of 'Living Vans'.
> I was quoted from the horses mouth (I will try to track down the email) that if you carry 'any goods not necessary for living in the van' then it becomes a living van under the existing legislation.
> I specifically asked about carrying a dinghy and outboard or scooter and was told that made my MH a 'living van'.
> I regard this as a particularly perverted interpretation of regulations which were designed to define a Motorhome (ie it must have certain fixtures) and uses the word 'goods', which to everyone else implies trade goods, as a definition for anything other than the fixtures required.
> In effect this interpretation could mean your van is, in law, a 'living van' if you carry a corkscrew since strictly speaking, no matter how much some of us need it, a corkscrew is not 'necessary' for your occupation of the van.
> 
> Why does this matter? I understand different MOT rules apply to living vans.


Sorry you take issue with this, But I am only quoting what my local testing station told me, They do test all classes of vehicles, right from juggernaughts to motorcycles.


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## aultymer

Found the email from VOSA:-

"A `living van' is "a vehicle, whether mechanically propelled or not, which
is used for living accommodation by one or more persons and which is also
used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one
or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle". Living
vans are classed as goods vehicles and, depending on their weight, are
therefore in either class IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or are
subject to HGV plating and testing.

Some of the items you mention would probably not be considered as
'reasonably necessary to provide mobile living accomodation'- such as a
canoe,dinghy and motor cycles. Such a vehicle would deemed to be a 'living
van' for testing purposes.

A private HGV would require a HGV test. A V112G is a DVLA form used to
claim exemption from testing.
A Motor Caravan, Living Van and a private HGV all require a test.
There has not been any recent changes to legislation relating to the above.

Ian Byrne, Enquiry Unit"

Don't shoot the messenger just get in touch with this guy at :- [email protected]


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## SaddleTramp

Hi, Have taken your post to the guy at Sheffield Testing Station and shown it him, He says if you want your vehicle testing with a dinghy in the back take it to him and he will test it you, He catagorically states that the "Goods" description is for hire or reward, ie to earn money from, He says that he has tested MH with Boats on not just dinghys, "dont know what he means there" another statement he made is that a dinghy has NEVER been goods and has always been leisure, BUT he says if you were selling the dinghy then it would be goods.

Ps I Agree, Dont shoot the messenger.

It just goes to show how wide open a subject this is and that the rules are open to personal translation.

I have just used a Law dictionary to look up the meaning of the word "Goods" and the following is the statement it makes:-

"goods" Law Definition n

Items of personal property offered or sold in commerce.


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## 104896

*c1/d1 licence at 70 years of age*

i can add a word of caution to this subject, if you are a driver of a motorhome over 3500kgs, and like me, have been regularly using vehicles above this weight and passed his test well before 1997, just reached 70 years of age and your doctor declares you fit to drive, the licence you will be automatically issued with will not have c1 or d1 entitlement! my advice to anyone aproaching 70 is to get the relevant information from the DVLA and then pay your doctor for a full medical (including eye test). mine cost me £80.00. if you do not retain the entitlement to c1 and d1 you have to then go through the whole system of taking a full test again. hope this helps to anyone in this situation


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## geraldandannie

Hi Cyclops, and welcome to MotorhomeFacts.

Good advice there. Thank you.

Incidentally, I know of several motorhomers who have had to give up their large (>3.5t) vans and 'step down' due to illnesses or medical conditions on reaching 70. I wonder what makes you unsafe on reaching the golden age of 70, and yet you're fine to drive at 69? And with the general improvement in health of the over 50s / 60s, will this arbitrary age limit be lifted? I'll bet not.

Gerald


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## viator

geraldandannie said:


> Hi Cyclops, and welcome to MotorhomeFacts.
> 
> Good advice there. Thank you.
> 
> Incidentally, I know of several motorhomers who have had to give up their large (>3.5t) vans and 'step down' due to illnesses or medical conditions on reaching 70. I wonder what makes you unsafe on reaching the golden age of 70, and yet you're fine to drive at 69? And with the general improvement in health of the over 50s / 60s, will this arbitrary age limit be lifted? I'll bet not.
> 
> Gerald


Having in the distant past been a city bus driver, coach driver and a HGV driver, I feel a little been qualified to answer the less safe a driver at 70 years` old bit. On reaching 70 I wanted to retain my LGV license (7.5ton)qualification and duly took the medical, this by my own GP who of course has your medical history to check on and he also gave me an eye test, this seems to be the critical factor for the driving license. He insisted I would not get the LGV as I could not read the chart properly without specs. I disputed this and arranged an optician's opinion, so another eye test, passed no problem and duly got the license. 3 years on I was given the opportunity of the required LGV medical, this time I declined, (my van is under 3500kg laden). Safer at 70+, In my own biased opinion I think I am as save as I was years ago, like a say this is my opinion. To be a good driver body and mind have to be sound, its a fact of life that at over 70 this may be deteriorating. Safe driving everyone.
viator


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