# Freezing drain



## rumik (Aug 19, 2007)

I have an Orian Zeta which has been designed (badly) with a low point in the waste water drain line in which water is trapped and of course in the present British weather this water freezes and drainage becomes impossible. There are a couple of other similar points in the drains which also freeze up.

Industrially this could be solved by heat tracing and insulating the line. My question is does anyone know of a 12v heat tracing system that could be used to wrap the affected areas of the drains?


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

I might be way off beam with this but it occurs to me that insulating the waste pipes will not work in really cold weather. It will only slow the process down.

If you can wrap a wire round the pipes then why not run a small current through the wire and produce enough heat to keep the contents liquid ? You could insulate the pipe over the heated wire to keep the heat in- like an electric blanket for your pipes.


Just a thought...!

G


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## rumik (Aug 19, 2007)

Yes, exactly what i was thinking of doing - I wondered whether anyone knows of whether there is a suitable product available or whether i'll have to make my own.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

rumik said:


> Yes, exactly what i was thinking of doing - I wondered whether anyone knows of whether there is a suitable product available or whether i'll have to make my own.


Just found this...

HERE

G

PS Sorry to seem thick ! Have just been looking at various sites and now know what " trace heating " means ! I thought you meant some way of tracing where the system is at it's most vulnerable-ie where to apply the pipe lagging.


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## trevorf (May 16, 2005)

Good idea Grizzly, but that one is 120 volts ??????

Trevor


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

trevorf said:


> Good idea Grizzly, but that one is 120 volts ??????
> 
> Trevor


You're right Trevor. The website gives a very good insight into what New Englanders have to face in winter - gutter de-icing kits for example. Puts our current -6 deg C into perspective.

It's got me thinking about a 12 volt alternative though......

G


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## RainDancer (May 24, 2005)

Hi Guys.

Have a look at This Site. It may help, before anyone says anything. Yes I know it works on 240 volt.
However it will operate via an inverter. If you are technical enough you can operate it on hook up and an inverter using a double pole changeover relay. Hope it helps. 8)


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

A nice idea - but cost might put you off!

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=0379750

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=0379312

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=0379738

However, those are all 240V versions. 12V is not listed.

But we are back to the age-old problem of watts, amps and battery capacity.

Hooked up to mains then 10W per metre is insignificant.

But at 12V 10W for just one metre it is taking 1 amp out of your battery all the time it is switched on.

So for 24 hours that is 24Ah. Can you spare that? Only you can decide!

I have not yet been able to find a 12V version.

You could use 240V mains stuff, which would give 0.5W per metre when used on 12V - not certain if that would be enough to prevent freezing.

Would not take much out of your battery though.

The 120V USA version would give 1W/m, although the site does not give the power consumption.


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Developing raindancer's theme - why not mount the inverter so that it is in contact with the pipes.

That way the heat loss inefficiency of the inverter (as you use your TV or whatever) can simply heat the pipe without resorting to expensive heating tape!

You first heard it here!


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## some-where-in-oxford (Apr 18, 2006)

I read in Motorcycle news a few weeks back when the reporter was on a long trip and the heated gloves caused heat blisters. So 12 volt heating can work in the right situation.

Maybe a 12v electric blanket?

http://www.roadking.co.uk/products.asp?partno=SLEEP337505

Plus some insulation to cover the pipes, to keep heat in. If you could get hot water going through first to raise the chill, the heater might keep it warm enough?

Or maybe with a T piece in the waste pipe, and attach to the motorhome ducted heating and blow warm air straight into the waste tank?


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## rumik (Aug 19, 2007)

Thanks guys - all excellent ideas and going in the right direction. The drain lines concerned are external to the van so I think some form of weather proof heat tracing is the optimum solution. I envisage that it would need to be operable whilst the vehicle is in motion and parked to avoid the water freezing in the first place. I anticipate that when parked an electric hookup would be available. 

Motorcycle rider heated clothing runs off 12v and I remember seeing somewhere a DIY attempt at heated clothing which might be adaptable to a heat tracing use. I'll try to develop this further.


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Freezing pipes*

Hi

Same problem here - a waste pipe running from the shower tray to the waste tank catches water and freezes. The pipe is external. First I knew of it was whilst having a shower and then a flood in the loo area as the water was not draining away.

I throw a cup of salty water down the shower tray after use. Not ideal, but best I can do at present.

The waste pipe needs reconfiguring to slope downwards rather than horizontal - something that I will do this week.

Russell


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

been at Southsea for 2 weeks using anti-freezed screenwash in the waste water system. So far no problems at all with icing up.

I seem to remember that WW2 RAF pilots had heated boots that ran off batteries!


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## some-where-in-oxford (Apr 18, 2006)

If you used carbon fibre tubing.

Earthed one end, 12 volts to other end, would it warm up?


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Surely the answer is a simple re-alignment of the pipes, so that not so much water is left to freeze up.Or if that is not possible, how about insulating the pipe and running another pipe over the lot, sort of double pipe with insulation between.

cabby


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## rumik (Aug 19, 2007)

Realignment of the pipe is the real solution but not easy with my van given the location of tank and drain tap and obstructions between (presumably why the builders didn't do it right in the first place ).

Insulation alone wouldn't solve the problem because all it does is slow down the rate of heat loss - if the van is standing for several days unused in very low temperature conditions (-7 deg C here this morning) then it will freeze despite the insulation.


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## some-where-in-oxford (Apr 18, 2006)

Could you fit extra drain taps at the low points?

Opening all the taps, draining the pipe completely, when parked up for longer periods.

Then drain into bucket as close to where the pipe comes through the floor as you can, when using motorhome in freezing temperatures.


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## rumik (Aug 19, 2007)

some-where-in-oxford said:


> Could you fit extra drain taps at the low points?
> 
> Opening all the taps, draining the pipe completely, when parked up for longer periods.
> 
> Then drain into bucket as close to where the pipe comes through the floor as you can, when using motorhome in freezing temperatures.


Yes this is a possibility but poses its own problems of supporting additional drain points and is a little inconvenient to use.


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## some-where-in-oxford (Apr 18, 2006)

Two way tap and tee piece as pipe enters tank, to close off tank, to stops blow back up the other pipes.

Stick an airline down and blow the pipes out, ejecting water just before it enters tank.

Running out of ideas


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Hi Rumik,

As far as I know a Zeta is very similar to a Nuevo, we used to have a Nuevo and had similar problems but only when it was really cold. The main trouble of course is that they just aren't suitably built for extended periods in very cold conditions.

I had a bit of a heath robinson solution for mine but it involved temporarily abandoning using the sink and shower in the toilet compartment whenever it cold really cold.

Just buy a short run of waste pipe and a 5 gallon container. Put the container in the area under the kitchen sink, disconnect the original pipe from the bottom of the kitchen sink and attach the spare pipe (5 minute job) making sure the hose is cut just long enough to run down into the container. If you have a middle shelf you will also need to cut a hole in it to enable the hose to run straight down to the container. Then just empty the container regularly and swop the pipes back when it stops freezing.

We used this method succesfully for 2 visits down to the Alps.

We now have a Hymer with a double floor, bliss!

Pete


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## rumik (Aug 19, 2007)

I am grateful for all these ideas and appreciate that the problem is probably an infrequent one and so "Heath Robinson" solutions could be sufficient. However, I would like to be able to use the van in almost all conditions with the minimum of on-site messing about to solve such problems. 

I know that my van is not really designed for extreme weather use but it seems to me that some relatively simple mods could overcome the freezing problem and make the van almost an all-year-rounder.


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## AberdeenAngus (Jul 26, 2008)

Found some 12v self regulating heat tracing tape.

http://www.heatline.com/pdfs/kompensator_install.pdf

Again, its 10W/metre. Bit of a drain when not on hook up. Could build a wee circuit that pulses the power. Of course, the better the lagging, the less power you need !


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

I can remember my father, in winter, putting a small paraffin greenhouse heater on the garage floor just below some vital part of his precious car. I don't suppose, when at a campsite, this would be an option -?

G


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Campsite*



Grizzly said:


> I can remember my father, in winter, putting a small paraffin greenhouse heater on the garage floor just below some vital part of his precious car. I don't suppose, when at a campsite, this would be an option -?
> 
> G


Not on my campsite!

Russell


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## some-where-in-oxford (Apr 18, 2006)

Grizzly said:


> I can remember my father, in winter, putting a small paraffin greenhouse heater on the garage floor just below some vital part of his precious car. I don't suppose, when at a campsite, this would be an option -?
> 
> G


I can remember that, dad had an old Ford pop, no heater in those days it was an extra.

Greenhouse heater inside the car to warm it before it was started, and then sometimes on the starting handle.

Everyone sat in the car with, scarf, coat and gloves then.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Campsite*



Rapide561 said:


> Not on my campsite!
> 
> Russell


It was only a very little heater Russell ! As far as I can remember it was about 6 inches high and about 12 inches in diameter and it was circular ( and red!). I assume it was pre-anti-freeze days and he was protecting the radiator from freezing. There was always a blanket across the front too.

G


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## some-where-in-oxford (Apr 18, 2006)

rumik said:


> I am grateful for all these ideas and appreciate that the problem is probably an infrequent one and so "Heath Robinson" solutions could be sufficient. However, I would like to be able to use the van in almost all conditions with the minimum of on-site messing about to solve such problems.
> 
> I know that my van is not really designed for extreme weather use but it seems to me that some relatively simple mods could overcome the freezing problem and make the van almost an all-year-rounder.


In another post on winterizing your motorhome - Yeti said ...

"Get yourslf down to the scrapyard, find a car with heated seats and remove the elements (12v low wattage. already insulated , cheap and effective)"


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## maddie (Jan 4, 2006)

:lol: here you go wrap this around the offending pipe turn on just before you want to use and five mins later 40 deg C so it should melt any ice in your pipes with the added bonus of insulating the pipes :lol: or take it off and wear it to take the dog out :lol: 
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?moduleno=47715&C=Newsletter&U=09P01-2_L42BQ&T=12254123
terry


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Look again they are out of stock. :wink: :wink: I don't think the electric sat heaters will work as they will not be damp proof.Is it possible to re-site the grey tank and respective pipes to inboard.I am going to read the first posting again. :roll: :roll: 

cabby


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Why don't you have a look at this.along the right line I thought.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_In...kw=heat tape&gclid=CKGmrteF9ZcCFQ06QgodDUARDQ

cabby


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## rumik (Aug 19, 2007)

cabby said:


> Why don't you have a look at this.along the right line I thought.
> 
> http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_In...kw=heat tape&gclid=CKGmrteF9ZcCFQ06QgodDUARDQ
> 
> cabby


That's the sort of thing but it's 240v - no good for use whilst in transit. This particular tape cannot be cut to length either so is less useful for the short lengths involved on a van. I'm sure however that something similar will do the job.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

You can tell that I have nothing to do this afternoon,

http://www.shoprvparts.com/product.do?no=13806F

:lol: :lol:

cabby


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## AberdeenAngus (Jul 26, 2008)

cabby said:


> You can tell that I have nothing to do this afternoon,
> 
> http://www.shoprvparts.com/product.do?no=13806F
> 
> ...


Ouch....the price of them !!!


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