# The vaccine



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I thought I´d start you off on the vaccine with the view from this country.

I don´t know which Tuesday this refers to, it may be yesterday Tuesday the 8th, but not sure.

_German Health Minister Jens Spahn and Research Minister Anja Karliczek said at a Berlin press conference on Tuesday that they expected a COVID-19 vaccine to be ready next year, as they announced that research by three German companies was currently being funded.
But the ministers both warned that "risky shortcuts" would not be taken, that a vaccine would not be available to most the population until the middle of next year. "We want a safe and effective vaccine, not necessarily to be the first," Spahn said.
"Safety has absolute priority on this point," Karliczek said._


https://www.dw.com/en/germany-coronavirus-vaccine-likely-available-by-mid-2021/a-54938078


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Well our decision to storm ahead could go either way I suppose. If it turns out it is totally safe and works then we have a massive head start, if not. Well 

I thought all the trials and tests were pretty conclusive though. I think you have to trust the teams that have developed them. They seem confident its safe so I have no qualms in taking it. The government have had naff all to do with it so we should be alright.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Do you suffer any allergies?

People who suffer from 'significant' allergic reactions should not take Covid vaccine, UK regulators warn

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-vaccine-allergic-reactions-uk-b1768530.html


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Pfizer had excluded people with a history of a severe allergic reaction eg anaphylaxis, from the trial AND PASSED THAT RESTRICTION ON TO MHRA it was NOT passed on in that form to those carrying out the vaccination.

Currently, there is a requirement for resuscitation to be available where the vaccine is being given - that will severely limit the places that it can be given and will exclude Care Homes until or unless those taking it the Care Homes take the equipment and the expertise to resuscitate including the use of epinephrine ((adrenaline). I used to be able to resuscitate, including defibrillation and the use of oxygen (believe it or not, oxygen is a POM a prescription only medicine) but could not have administered epinephrine other that the Anapen/Epipen which I had used in emergency twice.

I suspect that restriction will remain for some time......


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Sounds to me as if you lot over there are the little piglets, or am I being cynical :frown2:


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

They also said out of all vaccines given very few had any type of reaction, and those that did were very mild and soon recovered

Germany is not the first, cant be the first , I thought that we had approved it, Europe is waiting for European medicines to give it the Ok

I thought, in GBs regulations we could approve in a emergency situation, without the red tape

Europe has already bought the same vaccine, so it seems something holds up their approval, they have bought it? And yet may not approve it 

Possibly European medicines?

Anyway the answer is beyond me 

Sandra


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

aldra said:


> They also said out of all vaccines given very few had any type of reaction, and those that did were very mild and soon recovered
> 
> Germany is not the first, cant be the first , I thought that we had approved it, Europe is waiting for European medicines to give it the Ok
> 
> ...


Just to be absolutely clear again. Any country in the EU which currently includes the UK can distribute the vaccine to its "own" citizens. They cannot ship it or sell it on to other countries until its approved Europe wide but they can do what they like in their own country just the same as we have.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

aldra said:


> I thought, in GBs regulations we could approve in a emergency situation, without the red tape
> 
> Sandra


Every EU country can and always could decide to approve independently of the EU as you've been told at least 10 times now.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

According to the EU, they have all decided to stick together and wait to "act in unity".

To me that very much smacks of political manoeuvring rather than health concerns, I suspect if there was not the current "discussions" over Brexit, some countries would have used the "emergency" legislation. But they wish to emphasise the unity?

It is also true that before Brexit, the European Agency to approve medication use was based in London and was very much following the MHCA route to approval, a lot of staff at a very senior level were shared or met up in a regular forum four times a year.

Interestingly, the EMA still lists the U.K. as a participant, along with Iceland and other nonEuropean countries. They. say on their site that most medication does NIT go through the Centralised approval route where a single application is made to the EMA and approval issued for the whole of Europe, but is approved by the National Coordinating Cente for the individual country - in the U.K. that is the MHCA.

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/docume...s-agency-consistent-approach-medicines_en.pdf


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Have I

Gosh Im better informed than I thought 

But they haven’t and we have

Now is that because we are happy to kill off our citizens ?

Germany is a bit iffy about their vaccine so best not approve it just yet?

And I have been told at least 10 times

Best ignore me then

But I’ll take the vaccine, I know how Covid feels

Others will wait until the European medicine says it’s fine

Just wondering why they have already bought it, hedging bets?

Or maybe they can’t move before it’s approved, and we can

Which is why I mooted that at the beginning 

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

What makes you think the UK would deliberately kill citizens Sandra?


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Well I don't

I think the vaccine is safe

I’d certainly have it even though I have antibodies 

I never want to experience Covid again, nor the long aftermath of Long Covid

But for those who want to take that chance good luck

Maybe like me when your lips turn blue you will manage to get sufficient to oxygen to make it

You will have a 6’ 4” grandson to pick you up from the floor when you collapsed trying to reach the toilet

You will be content to die because living is hard at the time

Me, I’d go for the vaccine

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes, I think the vaccine is a jolly good thing too. Glad we agree.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Well maybe not glad we agree

But OK

Sandra


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

It is all about balance of risk. Yes some side effects in a minority of people will emerge as it is rolled out but, on balance, it is worth that small risk. I am surprised that Germany is waiting so long to be honest? Who knows what goes on behind closed doors in Brussels? That is a lot of preventable deaths between now and then. I must ask my brother what is going on in the States.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

According to the BMJ Dec 2020 issue 

A US official (S.Hahn, US food and drug administration, was called to theWhitehouse to explain why the US were not first to administer the vaccine 

He criticised the British process,but later apologised, saying American’s process is one that takes more time than it takes in the UK.........and he did not intend to denigrate the British process and has full confidence in MRHAs scrutiny 

Sandra


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

It is surprising how far behind the US is in lots of things. I remember visiting my brother and going shopping, armed with our credit card, only to be told that they did not have the facilities, in a national chain, to take payments via credit card. We had to go home and get our cheque book! 

My brother and I are very competitive over things like that. He tells me of some new gadget or other that he has got only to find we have had them ages. He got a CPAP for his snoring and told me that we would not have them over here because they were "too expensive" for the poor old NHS. I pointed out that several of our friends had been prescribed them for free  Still can't compete with him over customer service though  Well, we could, but that would mean giving 20% tips!!!


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

I wonder if the meeting of the Leaders of the remaining 27 will add pressure to the EMA to extract their digit, Germany COULD go it alone, but at this time won't simply because they wish to demonstrate the importance of unity.

Nothing like that will ever be admitted, but I suspect a vaccine will be approved within the next 10 days for use throughout the EU. it could be any one, or more of several vaccines that are awaiting approval;Pfizer/BioNtech, Moderna, Oxford/AZ, the French backed Sanofi, or any of the others.

Only time will tell, but I suspect there will be some infighting to encourage the use of the French developed vaccine, based on the measles virus as a transmission mechanism. France has already promised that "spare" vaccine will be given to the world- such pressure is bound to be exerted within the 27......


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes Pat. On many things the US is 'quaint' and on others they are positively backward. 
Only phones and health they are very forward in bleeding your last dime.

Ray.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I liken the American health system to our pet insurance. If you have a pre existing condition then hard luck. You also have to find the first part of the bill. My sister-in-law just swerved a situation that would have bankrupted them. She was diagnosed (very late) with breast cancer. She had just joined my brother's policy which covered all but the initial co payment. Her policy original policy called for her to pay about 30% of the bills. Her bills ran to hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I do, however, like the system they have which asks for $25 up front each time you consult your doctor. Our GP's would like something similar I am sure.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

patp said:


> I liken the American health system to our pet insurance. If you have a pre existing condition then hard luck. You also have to find the first part of the bill. My sister-in-law just swerved a situation that would have bankrupted them. She was diagnosed (very late) with breast cancer. She had just joined my brother's policy which covered all but the initial co payment. Her policy original policy called for her to pay about 30% of the bills. Her bills ran to hundreds of thousands of dollars.
> I do, however, like the system they have which asks for $25 up front each time you consult your doctor. *Our GP's would like something similar I am sure*.


We pay 25€ to visit the GP equivalent unless you have a long term existing condition that has been accepted by the State.

The difficulty and opposition towards such a charge in the U.K. stems from two points;

1. The 1947 Act said "free at the point of delivery" for Health Care, but that seems to have been overlooked as regards dentistry for many years.....

2. GP's are concerned that, while it might reduce "time wasters" and "DNA - Did Not Attend" incidences it may also stop people with serious concerns who cannot afford it (Benefits Claimants, those close to or already destitute etc) - it is interesting to note that many such people can still afford Sky Sport, or smoking, or drinking or similar.....

My daughter (a GP) says that DNA's on extended hours appointments eg Saturday mornings or afternoons, can approach 70% of those booked.... (grotty area near Southampton), even though those people requested and booked such appointments, often the afternoon before.... This was before the pandemic though, I have no figures from recent times.

Something needs to be done to severely stop such an appalling waste of time - those appointments could have been of major benefit to others who were, perhaps, unable to get such an urgent appointment. You cannot suggest a charge is levied against a bank card, as often such people are not in such a fortunate position to have such a thing...


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Both my eldest brother (UK resident) and my mother were guilty of time wasting. The least little niggle and they were at the doctors'. My brother even invented chest pain to get a heart check! My mother would walk out of one appointment with the GP having been told that "everything is fine" and go to reception to book another one for next month. When challenged by me her answer was "he likes to keep an eye on me". Both intelligent people but with phobias about being ill. I am sure that if they had to pay even £5 they would have reconsidered their actions.

My Grandmother was alive before the advent of the NHS. She was in her eighties before she visited a doctor. Try as we might to insist that she should go and that it was free she refused. Only if death threatened did her generation trouble the doctor.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

I could recount an incident where we were called to an elderly lady who had had a heart attack and sadly, died. 

We were stuck there for four HOURS with the Police and a full Paramedic crew because no Doctor could find her on their computerised records.....

She had last visited that Dr just to register more than 50 years previously.

Only when they searched the paper records were they prepared to attend and sign a death certificate. Until that happened, we sat and drank tea with the family.

So yes, some people did not visit their Doctor often....


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I think the new gp phone and video appointments are a great idea and I hope they continue after covid. Not always suitable but for many things they are. I booked one this morning as I think I need an X ray on my knee. She called me up on a video link half an hour later went over it all and I could have gone for the hospital tomorrow if I wanted to but decided to wait until next week.

There must be loads of stuff where you don't need to be face to face. My chickenpox in April was diagnosed by video link. Doctors is a 15 mile round trip as well.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

barryd said:


> I think the new gp phone and video appointments are a great idea and I hope they continue after covid. Not always suitable but for many things they are. I booked one this morning as I think I need an X ray on my knee. She called me up on a video link half an hour later went over it all and I could have gone for the hospital tomorrow if I wanted to but decided to wait until next week.
> 
> There must be loads of stuff where you don't need to be face to face. My chickenpox in April was diagnosed by video link. Doctors is a 15 mile round trip as well.


Yes they can work well, when my BP went crazy after my stroke all the meds adjustment was done with weekly telephone consultations based on my home taken readings. This morning I had a physio phone consultation re my arthritic shoulder pain, she's emailing me an exercise sheet and will follow up in the new year. I'm happy to stay clear of hospital and GP environments at the moment.

Terry


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

As far as I know we don´t have that here, but I´m in a pretty clear area, I don´t know what its like in other lands/states, there are 16 all together and all have slightly different arrangements..


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Same goes for Hospital consultant appointments really. Michelle goes through the system year after year over her Kidney stones which has been going on for years. Initially they wanted her to come in and she said no way so they then started doing the consultancy bit over the phone. Ok you have to go in for a scan etc but then there is often a follow up appointment to discuss the results. What is the point in driving 32 miles round trip and struggling to find somewhere to park when it can all be done over the phone?


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

We have had telephone consults for things like medication review and it seems to work well. You do have to realise though that some people are not very observant over medical matters. 

Also with daughter being a physio she laughed when Chris said he was having a telephone consult for physiotherapy. It is a hands on job and they need to see the range of movement you have etc. Some people will say "oh it's fine" when asked while others will exaggerate the symptoms for the sympathy. I almost always go on important consults with Chris because he tells the consultant that he is "fine" when I know that he is not. I married the opposite to my mother and brother


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

I have very clear evidence from the work that we did with the Ambulance Service that people do not tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth....

They tell each person in the chain what they think they need to know and that's it, nothing more unless specific directed questions are asked,

So the first wider gets a response, the Paramedic gets more information allowing them to make a better diagnosis, the A&E Nurse gets a third level of response then the Dr gets even more information.

I had very clear examples of that which I used as experiences in teaching Ambulance staff...... you would be shocked to see how true that is - please think about it for yourself and those that you care for even if "care" is not meant by having the same role as a nurse, but "only" as a lifetime partner or parent.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I’m reasonably happy

Telephone consultations with consultants , expect they often are not, I’m happy not to go to the hospital now or in the future, unless

Alberts consultants consult on the phone but make clear if he feels he needs a face to face consultation just let them know

The Gp, will they relinquish their role , even if it’s at the end of the telephone

Do you need antibiotics?, do they know what that lump is, will they refer based on your explanation 

It’s a new way of consultations

I think many will slip below the net, cancers will go undetected, is it indigestion or a heart attack, how many have already died with “ indigestion “

Some of us are aware but even then it’s hard to get GPS to accept what is an effect self diagnoses 

If it was simple many who see the doctor would still be alive if they had referred earlier

Sandra


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