# Please, please keep your dog on a lead....



## Waleem

...and you might not have to deal with the situation I have had over the past two weeks. Last Tuesday, my daughter and I were walking our two Greyhounds home from school as usual. Dan, our big lad is 5 years old, but we have only had him for a month and as anyone who knows ex-racing Greyhounds will tell you that it takes a while for them to adapt normal life. Both our dogs are walked with Martingale collars (self-tightening, to cater for the Greyhounds anatomy-smaller head than neck) and metre long strong webbing leads. We always wind the leads around our hands when passing other animals or people just as a precaution.
Anyhow, I noticed a woman walking towards us down the pavement, about 25 feet away. She had a toddler and a small Yorkshire Terrier with her. The child was about 20 feet in front of her, the dog roughly 5 feet. As the child drew level with us, he fell over and started crying-naturally, we looked round. I looked back to see the Yorkie running very quickly straight at Dan. Before we could intervene, Dan (who I suspect thought that we were about to be attacked) grabbed the Yorkie in his mouth. The only way I could get him to release was to physically prize his jaws apart which took quite a while. Meanwhile, the Yorkie was crying and bleeding, trapped. I managed to release it and the lady was given a lift home by a passer-by to get it to a vet.

Imagine the scene. I am covered in blood and dog saliva, my glasses are crushed and damaged when they fell off whilst I was trying to free the dog, my hands are scarred and blistered from pushing against my Dog's teeth and my legs are cut, bruised and bleeding from wrestling the dogs apart on the ground. My 10 year old daughter is crying and terrified. we are both very shaken-nothing like this has happened to us before...

We got home to discover that the Yorkie belongs to our next door but one neighbour's Daughter. I wasnt sure what to do at this point. I was very concerned that the reason it had all happened was because the Yorkie was off its lead and clearly not under control. I though I had better ring the Police, just to see what I should do. The Police helpdesk were very friendly and assured me that as my Dogs were under control and the other one was not, I had nothing to fear. I decided not to report the lady for not having her dog under control, mainly out of compassion for her Dog's situation. (It had clearly been badly injured.)

A day later, a Policeman turned up at my door. He informed me that the lady had made a complaint against me under the Dangerous Dogs Act saying that I had my Dogs "Dangerously out of control in a public place" ! As you may be able to imagine, I was mortified! I have never had to deal with the Police before, and the whole situation seemed so unjust. I had to take my Dogs outside so that the lady could identify which dog "attacked" hers and was then told that I needed to report to the Police station the following day to give a recorded interview under caution.

I went to the Police station and gave my statement honestly and truthfully. I was told that the Police would then decide whether I would be summonsed to court and that this would take a week. I was also told that unfortunately, the Yorkie did not recover from it's injuries. It is only today that I have found out that they will not be taking any further action and are satisfied that my Dogs were properly under control.

This post is just to remind people that however well trained their dogs are, they are still unpredictable wild animals at times and need to be supervised. This lady's decision not to have her dog on a lead on a public road and to then accuse me of wrongdoing (Falsely) has put my family and I through hell over the past two weeks. It has also no doubt resulted in a great deal of distress and heartache for her and her family with the loss of her dog.

Please think of what COULD happen...


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## tokkalosh

What an awful experience for you Waleem.

A reminder for us all, not that I would dream of letting my dog off lead in such a situation - my toddler would have been closer to me as well!!


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## carolgavin

Hi am so sorry to hear your very sad tale. It must have been very upsetting to be accused of something you did not do. I hope you can put this behind you and thank you for your cautionary tale.


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## iandsm

*leads*

What a horrible incident. Owners should understand that if they have a dog which is not on a lead and it approaches one that is and there is a fight then it is NOT the fault of the dog on the lead. The owner of the dog not on the lead is responsible.

Very often when on sites, both private of Caravan & Camping Club or Caravan Club, I see dogs not on leads. There are plenty of signs around, "Everyone loves your dog but on a lead". I have lost count of the number of people who either ignore the signs or just don't think it applies to their dog. Why don't these people, and they know who they are, just do as they are asked and keep their dogs on leads please


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## 101776

You poor man, what a horrible situation, especially as you live so close to them.

I'm sure your dog did not mean harm, he was acting on instinct, and in his eyes not much difference between a rabbit, and a Yorkie, most greyhound types would have done exactly the same, especially so soon after retirement.

The woman was definately at fault, thankfully the police have seen sense, I just hope you and your daughter will continue to walk with the dogs, and that it does not knock your confidence in Dan, perhaps you could use one of those very light muzzles to prevent him scooping up any other loose pests in future..

I do hope you recover from the shock soon. Best wishes.....


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## G2EWS

Hi Waleem,

What an awful but eye opening story.

It really does make you think. Our Meg (border collie) will do everything we ask of her and as such I almost never have her on a lead, but your story will make me think again when confronted by other dogs.

Regards

Chris


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## jarcadia

So sorry you had to go through all that, a similar thing happened to me. I was walking my dog quietly on a short lead in the park when we were overtaken by a car, the driver stopped about 25 yds ahead then got out and opened the hatchback, out shot two small terriers who charged straight at my dog whilst barking and growling. Of course my dog thought we were both being attacked and seized one of them and pinned it to the ground. Fortunately after I got over the shock he dropped it on command, the terriers’ owner meanwhile was ranting at me that I had a dangerous dog as his “only wanted to play” !
I told him he was lucky they were still alive and that there were notices everywhere in the park that dogs had to be on leads, his reply was “ they are always off the lead, I know how to control them” WHAT!!!!!!
Why do some people think they are above the law!
Jackie


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## 88870

This really annoy's me. We have just spent a few days on a pretty deserted beach at on the east coast. 

Our dogs were off the lead but as soon as another dog comes within 100 feet I always put our the younger one Reef (male staffie) on a lead. Bodie (female staffie) just is not interested in anything else apart from her stone and the waves and she is great with other dogs and humans!

Now the bit that bugs me is that if anyone else is walking down the beach with a dog off the lead, they always, without fail, managed to walk within 6-8 foot of us. Dog would run up and Reef would either try and maul it or want to play (depending on the look it gave him!). Reef was on a very short lead (about a foot and a half) and still the owners would let the dogs run up. Some dogs were lovely but I can't judge from a distance which ones he won't like (85% like / 15% wants to maul!) so I just don't risk it either way.

I mean what gives? They would watch me put him on a lead and still risk their dogs within a couple of feet. No doubt it would be my fault if he managed to scratch one of them.

I'm with you on this on Waleem, keep your dog on a lead, until you at least know if the surroundings are receptive! Sorry you had to go through what you did, I can't imagine how horrific it would have been.


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## locovan

*dogs of leads*

Im so very sorry for you and your dog.
I have adopted a 3year old rescue Jack Russell/cross Papillion, a very nervous dog that I have spent 2 years bringing him round from a very sad up bringing and love him to bits.
He is so good indoors, loyal, never chew's, and is well trained, just a great dog but when he goes out he will not pass another dog without barking at them and I have to cross the road and so keep the other dog out of his circle.
Dogs off leads are a nightmare, I get "oh my dogs friendly" but mine isn't I have to control his barking and I cant control my dog and the other dog thats off the lead.
I have come to notice just how many dogs are off leads when we camp be it at a campsite or a Rally.
It always says no dogs off leads, but they are and the other thing I dislike is the owners are never there to see where the dog goes to toilet hence there is always a pile that is never picked up.
I just wish the owners of dogs off leads spared a little more thought for us that have a nervous dog on a lead that have a problem and that it will be their dog in the wrong if anything happened, and it can, as your story just shows we must all do our bit in helping our dogs have a good life.
I have been through a bad experience like yours when 2 Staffs off lead attacked my last Jack on lead and she had 126 stitches that was a dreadful experience to so I know how you feel when you have yours safe on a lead and doing the best for your dog. Goodluck
.


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## wakk44

A good message to all dog owners here,keep your dog on a lead in a public place.Our Kerry Blue is male dog aggressive and is kept under control on the lead,I always ask other owners to put their dog on a lead,particularly large breeds-he hates Alsatians,Rottweilers and especially Boxers.

The words I dread to hear are-''it's all right,he only wants to play'',Ky doesn't and if they get too close will attack,why can't people realise that the reason I have asked them to control their dogs is because I do not want to see dogs fighting,and don't want to fall out with people.

We had a regrettable incident this summer while on holiday on a large commercial site.It was a lovely sunny day,I was playing beach bowls with my 14 year old son and Ky was tethered to a large dog spike outside the motorhome,when suddenly all hell broke loose.

The Spaniel from the next caravan burst out of the door and charged towards my dog,I saw it but was too far away to stop it,I shouted at the dog but to no avail,it probably wanted to play but Ky didn't give it a chance and locked onto it's face and started a ripping motion from side to side. 

My first instinct was to stop him and I grabbed each side of his neck to try and prevent damage to the Spaniel,the dog owner heard the screaming and rushed out,grabbed his dog and tried to pull him away,which was a mistake and caused more injuries.

After what seemed like an eternity but was probably only a couple of minutes Ky let go,as he did so the Spaniel,which was in pain turned,and in fear,bit his owner on the forearm.This caused a severe laceration to the poor chap and there was blood everywhere(he had 30 stitches).

The dog needed treatment at the local vets and the owner finished up in hospital,10 minutes later the site manager came to investigate the incident after hearing reports about a dangerous dog on the site.When he was given the details I was completely exonerated of any blame as my dog was under control on my pitch,and the spaniel was off the lead.

We came home the following morning,3 days early because I was upset and a bit shook up by the incident.A couple of weeks later we received a letter from the dog's owners saying that even though they accepted that their dog came onto our pitch,they thought a dog like ours shouldn't be allowed on a dog friendly site.

They also enclosed copies of several vets bills in the hope that I would pay them.

I did have some sympathy for them as they did come off the worst,but it would never have happened if their dog had been under control.

The whole incident did spoil the last part of our holiday,it could actually have been me who was injured as I was in the thick of it trying to separate them.

So all you dog owners who exercise your dogs off the lead please be aware that if you see a dog on a lead it is for a reason,please do the courteous thing and get your dog under control.

Steve


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## locovan

*dogs off leads*

*The words I dread to hear are-''it's all right,he only wants to play''*

Oh I couldnt agree more I always answer "I have my dog under control but I cant control yours as well"

Theres me doing everything that the dog whisperer says but with another dog going silly around him I have no chance to stop him barking and jumping in the air.


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## damondunc

What a horrible incident for All of you involved , my deepest sympathies to all concerned.

Chris


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## bigbazza

I live in the Cotswolds and walk our Shih Tzu every evening on a 200 acre common. I would say that 95% of dogs we meet are running free. Most are very friendly but when they aproach us our dog sometimes barks and pulls towards them. The owners sometimes say that if we let her loose she wouldn't be like this. I don't of course but I am definately the minority.


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## gilly54

My sympathies to those injured and injured dogs too. I have a mental springer spaniel that is as dopey and soft as you like with humans including my two young grandchildren, but she HATES other dogs. The only other dog she loves is my friend's dog who she basically adopted as her mother.

I do have to keep mine on a lead whenever there are other dogs about as she believes in attacking first and asking questions later!  I take her to the local beach and let her run free if no others about. I think that it is fear that makes her attack first but has anyone any ideas on how I can get her to accept other dogs?

I took her to puppy training classes and could never get her to stay in the sit position when the other dogs had to circle the group as she was obviously very concerned/scared about other dogs near her/me. I then continued onto other dog training group sessions but still no improvement. 

Apart from this totally unacceptable/very embarrassing behaviour she is a lovely dog and I would love to be able to walk her without her obviously getting frightened and having a go at other dogs.

Gilly


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## annetony

How awful for you,

my dog a king charles is nearly a year old, 
when we took her to Southport we did let her off the lead but put her on as soon as we saw another dog approach, she sometimes barks at other dogs but thats because she does want to play

we check her and make her sit, if the other dog owner lets his dog greet her (both on lead) then I have no problem everyone knows their own dog.

You did nothing wrong and it was all the other owners fault, I'm just sorry you had to go through what you did, let it be a lesson to us all


Anne


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## Waleem

Thank you all so much for your kind words. It is great to know that others agree with my point of view-at the end of the day, I don't want anyone or their dogs to get hurt. I have started to calm down now, but it does shake your faith in people as well as animals....
in future, I will be warning dog owners with their dogs off the lead in no uncertain terms. Dan is a lovely soft dog, but definitely has the male dog thing at the moment, so I am taking no risks!


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## badger

How can I answer this ? As I have a foot in both camps..........

What a nightmare to have gone through and you did the right thing in keeping your dog on a lead, I am not sure but I believe it's an offence not to have a dog on a lead on the pavement.

I prefer (and so does Harry) to have Harry untethered when we are at a camp (unless the rules are there clearly stating dogs should be tethered)
When tethered harry seems to go into "protect Mode", and barks agressively at anyone aproaching................(I say here, he's never bitten or attacked anyone or anything)......but un tethered he gives a Gruff, then wags his tail at the approaching "danger"

As far as owning "agressive" dogs or dogs that are not as "predictable" as some, they should be muzzled in public.

I know I'm guilty of letting harry off the lead when I can, but he is now a lot quieter (through training) and more socially acceptable as far as behaviour is concerned.

(Just my opinion)


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## Kelcat

Waleem - that all sounds awful - poor you, & worse - poor Dan.
You can see my dog (avatar) & she is always on a lead (more because she just lives to run & run - she is actually good with most dogs). We regularly get approached by owners with the dreaded "only wants to play" - my stock answer now is "well unfortunatly mine doesn't - please put your dog on a lead". If it's a small dog I politley point out how it probably looks like a rabbit to Pushka :wink:


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## Waleem

This is Dan, by the way...


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## locovan

*dogs of lead*

I have been googleing to see if a law has been passed for all dogs to be on leads.
I came up with this
The Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 has replaced the dog byelaw system and Dogs (Fouling of Land) Act 1996 with powers to make Dog Control Orders. Primary and secondary authorities (local authorities and, principally, parish councils) can make Dog Control Orders in relation to 5 dog control matters, including dog fouling, dog ban areas, dogs on leads, putting and keeping a dog on lead under supervision and multiple dog walking restrictions. Though Dog Control Orders do not need confirmation by the Secretary of State, they can only be introduced after completing the procedure prescribed in the Dog Control Order (Procedures) Regulations 2006, which includes a period of local consultation and notification in local press. The maximum fine upon conviction for a Dog Control Order offence is £1000, and Fixed Penalty Notices may also be issued.


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## Technophobe

Waleem - so sorry to hear about this truly upsetting incident. It is so clear you and your super dog were in the right despite the tragic injuries to the other animal.

Our X-breed Holly is a lovely gentle dog and behaves well off the lead but we would NEVER walk her off-lead on a pavement. Elsewhere, we always keep to the rules - on lead on sites and when local byelaws say. We want her to run free and socialise with other dogs but always check with the other owners that this is OK - couldn't bear the thought of going through the sort of episode you have recounted. Others have made the sound point that just because one owner has 100% confidence in the behaviour of their dog, that doesn't mean that the other dog won't react badly - and how on earth can they be 100% sure about their own dog either?

Jon


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## 106165

Waleem,

I'm so sorry you had to go through all that. I'm afraid there are so many irresponsible dog owners out there. You or Dan did nothing wrong. It will have been his instinct to defend himself (and also you).

We've had several problems with dogs off a lead, both attacking our dog (when we had one) and also us, both playfully and aggressively. 

I love dogs but I don't like it when other people say "He's just saying hello" when I've got an Alsations paws on my shoulders  

We had an experience last year on a CL site in the North York Moors when a couple in a caravan insisted on letting their two Alsations have free run of the site. Every time we stepped out of the van, they came charging up. We witnessed them nip (albeit playfully) another woman's hand. We'd booked for the weekend and after observing their out of control dogs over breakfast, we decided that enough was enough. Mark made a quick dash for the levelling blocks, just managing to get into the van and close the door by the skin of his teeth.

God knows what would have happened if there had been other dogs or small children on the site.

It's a shame that more people are not like the responsible dog owners here on MHF.

I hope you recover from what must have been a very upsetting experience. 

Stimpy


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## thieawin

I read with sympathy and incredulity

First no dog however loving and soft is safe in all situations, you just will never know until it happens. They are wolves for heavens sake, all of them, from the fluffiest smallest cutest right uo to the largest. They have an inherent wildness and ability to harm. All dogs, your own and those of oters must be approached, treated and trained on that basis.

Second in nature except for pack dominance at breeding times violence towards members of the pack or group is reasonabley limited but between packs it can be nasty al the time if there is a threat or perceived threat. otherwise wild dogs avoid one another, ignore one another and stay quiet

Your dogs pack is you and your family. The way you treat and train it will have more effect on everyday behaviour than its lupine genes.

So any one moly coddling, applying humanising descriptions and attributing human emotions to their dogs is off on the wrong foot, they are causing psychological damage to dog, uncertainty as to pack place and danger to themselves and others, dogs and humans. Further they also will try and eradicate the wariness making little fido think it can approach anyone and be loved

Any dog which is described as nuts, goes on protect mode, barks at other dogs, has a male thing, mental, hates other dogs etc, just a selection from the last 10 posts is poorly trained and possibly with owners who should not have them. Most wolves and wild dogs ignore most other wild dogs all the time and are silent. That is what is natural 

This is a human problem created by humans who do not train or control their dogs properly, on or off the lead. A properly trained greyhound even on its lead would not have attacked and mauled the chasing smaller dog. There are faults both sides.

To use an excuse that you won't control a dog because it whines and growls whilst tied up is an indication that you do the tying up wrongly, somehow.

It realy is time for fewer dogs and for those of us who own to be trained in dog ownership and handling, rather than trying to train our dogs with no skill and knowledge

This post is subject to the caveat that there are some breds which have had agression and fighting in bred. No one should be allowed to posses or breed such dogs.


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## Technophobe

Thiawin -

What an excellently put together posting! It encapsulates all that one needs to understand about the core underpinnings of dog behaviour and how many owners simply don't relate appropriately to their dogs.

Jon


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## Zebedee

thieawin said:


> This post is subject to the caveat that there are some breds which have had agression and fighting in bred. No one should be allowed to posses or breed such dogs.


An interesting post, and some sound advice, but this last point is a bit alarming. :?

That would mean the end of the line for all terrier breeds, most hounds and hunting dogs, and some of the herding breeds as well.

Half the current breeds of dog would become extinct overnight, among them would be Jack Russells, Whippets, Bulldogs, Poodles, Border Terriers, Afghans, Bassetts . . . . need I go on.

Even the Queen's Corgis would have to go, as they were trained originally to nip the ankles of recalcitrant cows! 8O

A bit extreme perhaps?


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## skid

*not very nice*

l feel for you as a dog owner and l feel for the other dog owner,was there a thing a while back where they wanted ex track dogs to wear a muzzle in public as it was in there nature /training to chase small animals?


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## Waleem

thieawin said:


> A properly trained greyhound even on its lead would not have attacked and mauled the chasing smaller dog. There are faults both sides.


Sorry, but whilst I agree with everything else you say, I find this offensive. My dog has only been with us for a month after a five year racing career. Unfortunately, much though I would wish it, I am unable to socialise a dog in a month. The way I deal with this is to keep my dog on a stout and short lead with a proper collar. The suddenness and speed of the attack (and be in no doubt that the terrier WAS the aggressor)meant that there was nothing else I could do to prevent it. He did not maul the dog, but basically just gripped it-he made no attempt to tear it apart, nor was there any growling etc. The terrier did not chase my dog but ran at him facing full on.
I am NOT prepared to accept any fault in the matter-I could have done NOTHING to prevent the attack on my dog-the only person who COULD have made a difference was the terrier's owner if she had leashed her dog. It could then have been nowhere near my dogs. The Police are in full agreement, thank goodness.

Regarding the comment about muzzling, I have not heard that and would emphasize that it is unnecessary as long as ex-racing dogs are properly controlled. My dogs are NEVER off their leads as it would be unfair on both them and smaller animals they might chase.


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## skid

*what next*

your dog is an instinct killer its not his fault but if my grand child ran past with my terrier who is grumpy to larger dogs what would you be in a position to do?

my dog is only grumpy to larger dogs to help him get left alone.

l just think in this situation a muzzle would be in order,as you said he just killed it ,not shook it or played with it.

ps had three greyhounds as well


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## 107088

This is a very interesting, the whole thing is, so far as I can glean, is

Dogs have very strict social greetings sytems...the whole gentle quiet approach, tail and head down, and then the inevitable bum sniffing bit....also, from what I have read, ( and I started to read things since I watched the Milan series on TV) dogs are , as said, pack animals, and tend, as a pack to have fairly ridgid areas where they hunt/live. 

The problem is, that the needs for large terretories mean that, in real terms, the number of dogs in each pack is relatively small, and are usually family members. Therefore, when we, humans bring unrelated dogs together, in large numbers, we, as rational beings ( I use that term loosely,) can chat, and apply our social greeting system, forgetting that a dog, is armed to the teeth, with teeth, so they need to beware, hence the rigidity of their social greetings.

We say, because we wish to believe it, " Oh, my dog is friendly, and want to play". 

How do we really know, we dont apply the same rigid constriction that our dog do, and expect the dogs to behave like humans. I really cant undertand, and dont understand frankly, any dog owner which applies human terms for a dogs...i.e. My little boy/girl, my little baby. My kiddies just want to play etc. 

Now, this, I believe is the root of the problem, we, people, expect dogs to be like people, and they're not. My 2, a Border Collie and the Belgian Shepherd, are breeds which are bred, by us, to enhance their pack hunting instinct, therefore, a certain aggression is expected. I accept this and deal with it by applying the Gospel according to Ceasar. Rules, boundaries , limitations, and exercise, dicipline and affection. I expect my dogs to react in a manner according to their breed and their specie, and take the action appropirate. I keep them on leads until they have accepted the other dog. Or person....unless the bugger get out of the window in the RV .....  ( the dog, out the window, not the person...er, that wasnt clear)

I never expect a play, I always expect a threat. Dogs which rush up and have tails and heads up, are being anti-social, aggressive and dominant, they get the response from my 2 which a dog can REASONABLY expect. agression back. 

I think Waleem has a point, makes it well, and is correct. Any dog on first meeting should be on a lead, they are our responsibility. We keep them, and are responsible for their behavior, and if we cant accept that, we shouldnt have a dog.


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## locovan

*dogs on lead*

You are so right the wagging tail doesnt always mean the dog is friendly.

http://www.naturaldogtraining.com/wag.html


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## Spacerunner

_Regarding the comment about muzzling, I have not heard that and would emphasize that it is unnecessary as long as ex-racing dogs are properly controlled. My dogs are NEVER off their leads as it would be unfair on both them and smaller animals they might chase._

Although in your case it may have been necessary and have saved a lot of trouble.

Also, surely if you feel that you are unable to let your dogs off the lead to perform its sole purpose in life, why then do you persist in keeping an animal under totally artificial circumstances. Would it not be more sympathetic to have the dog euthanised as it had ceased to perform the task that it was designed and bred for.

I am, however totally sympathetic to the experience that you have gone through. My own dog is very much 'tuned' into the dog pack code. I just have to keep one jump ahead of him, which can be tricky, to say the least.


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## Waleem

Spacerunner said:


> Also, surely if you feel that you are unable to let your dogs off the lead to perform its sole purpose in life, why then do you persist in keeping an animal under totally artificial circumstances. Would it not be more sympathetic to have the dog euthanised as it had ceased to perform the task that it was designed and bred for.


Do you know what happens to the majority-yes, the majority of Greyhounds who retire from racing in this country? Around 10,000 dogs disappear each year, and when I say disappear, I dont mean humane killing. Large quantities are brutally killed, have their ears cut off (To remove the identifying tatoos) and are disposed of on landfill sites. My dogs cannot be off the lead at present because of their racing training, but I am told that after two or three years, they can be cautiously tried and may well be fine. I see it as my duty to try to remove as much of the unwanted racing training as possible, but it takes time. Meanwhile, it should be borne in mind that these dogs don't want to race-that has been (often brutally) trained into them by humans. My dogs spend the vast majority of their time resting or playing, so running is really not that important to them. They are ideal pets, gentle and kind (If a little large with two of them in the MH !!) and I am proud of them.

It is easy to say in hindsight that a muzzle would have been useful, and clearly the attack could have been prevented, but I dont see all other dog owners muzzling their dogs for the same reason. Again, I repeat that MY dog was the one attacked. He reacted to defend us and I do not accept that he needs any criticism-he has never displayed any aggressive tendancies other than on this occasion. The lesson I have learned is that many other dog owners are stupid and irresponsible, and in future I will make that clear in no uncertain terms to any dog owner who allows an uncontrolled dog near mine.


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## Waleem

*Re: what next*



skid said:


> your dog is an instinct killer its not his fault but if my grand child ran past with my terrier who is grumpy to larger dogs what would you be in a position to do?


As my dogs would be under proper control, I dont see that I would be obliged to do anything. I dont know the age of your Grandson, but if under 18, he is a minor and technically not able to be in sole charge of a dog. (At least that is what the Police told me when I asked.) I would hope that you wouldnt allow him to let your dog approach other dogs he does not know.


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## Spacerunner

Waleem.


I am only acting as devil's advocate.

Whether greyhouds are gentle and peaceful at home, by your own admission they have been trained (brainwashed?) to run and catch small animals.

I seem to remember that it has been recommended that after greyhounds retire that they should indeed be muzzled during their retraining back to domestic pet status.

And it does no good for you to explain to less responsible owners the error of their ways after an incident such as has happened to you already.

Surely the saying 'once bitten twice shy' really does apply in this case.

Whenever my dog goes to the vet he is muzzled, as a precaution. I don't mind, the dog accepts it, the vet is more comfortable. he only dislikes vets because he resented having a huge needle inserted into him when he was being 'chipped'. Its a fact of life that we both can live with.


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## bigbazza

Waleem, you are exactly right.
This incident happened because the other dog was not under proper control.
I'm sure if you were in a crowded place were close contact with others was unavoidable you would take appropriate action, (or avoid that situation)
I don't understand all this stuff about dog packs and leaders etc. if we let them be absolutely natural we would let them all loose and I can just imagine the carnage. We wouldn't of course have them chipped as this insn't what happens in the pack.
I'm sorry you suffered this horrible experience Walleem but you have done nothing wrong .(In my opinion)
Barry


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## skid

*will he wear a muzzle now you have seen what can happen*

wouldnt like you to see your dog do this again.


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## Waleem

No he won't, because I do not intend to cater for other people's irresponsibility. Any future incident (which I hope there will not be) will not be his or my fault in any way-I will do my part to it's utmost, just like I did this time.

Thanks Bazza!


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## MaxandPaddy

I keep my dog on his lead for his own safety as he is an elderly Labrador and would probably not survive a nasty attack from another dog.
We have just returned from a weekend in Scarborough and twice the poor old lad has been bitten by a dog off its lead!

Whilst we walking on the coastal path a dog launched itself at him and gave him a nip and the second time in the pub a dog was wandering around off the lead and it bit Charlie on his side.

It did get thrown out of the pub and both dogs were Jack Russells so luckily our dog was not mauled by a large dogs!

But I do agree,please,please keep your dog under control and do not let it approach other dogs.

We also had a Labrador run across a busy road to get to our dog,he was friendly but he only just missed getting run over and I had not grabbed him he would have run back out into the road and would have been hit by traffic,his owner did not seem too concerned and when she took him back over the road she let him loose again!!!

Val


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## patp

There is another answer.

If every puppy was properly socialised there would be no aggressive dogs to worry about.

Without seeng the situation it is difficult to say but the greyhound was probably acting in self defence more than attacking a small furry creature.

It is dangerous to generalise. Every single situation described above had its own cause. There is no simple answer.

The trouble is that puppies are too easy to come by and people always think that their breed is perfect and other breeds are not. It has nothing to do with the breed and everything to do with the amount of socialisation and habitutuation that the puppy gets during its "critical" period of development. This is widely recognised now as being up to the age of 12 weeks!

If they miss out on socialisation, or it is not done properly, then it is virtually impossible to put it right once the dog is adult. 

The Blue Cross's top behaviourist left the organisation to start up a business aimed at getting puppies socialised (called Puppy School). This was because she recognised she was picking up the pieces of a society that was too lazy to to do the right thing by their pups. The vast majority of dogs in rescue are there because of behaviour problems. There was always an excuse i.e. I went on holiday and couldn't pick him up until he was 10 weeks then he needed to stay in, I've got another dog so he plays with that, I've had dogs all my life and never had problems before (forgot to mention the kids were home then and puppy used to go to park etc). The list goes on.

Breeders can take some responsibility here for not advising puppy owners' of their responsibilities. Breeders take their latest puppy to ringcraft and shows with them and so often do not realise that socialisation is taking place by default. They give very detailed dietary advice - running to several pages sometimes 8O - but virtually none on socialisation and habituation during the puppy's critical period.

If I were Prime Minister it would be made law to properly socialise and habituate puppies.

Pat


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## locovan

*dogs on lead*

*This is widely recognised now as being up to the age of 12 weeks! *
I so agree with you.
I have always trained my dogs from puppies and they have always been bitches.
But !!! Louis has been a shock to the system.
As a rescue dog (and I do mean rescue as we were begged by the rescue home to give him a home and we went there while they took him away because of mistreatment) at three years old he is hard work.
He is a wonderful dog but has not been socialised and is a nervous wreck even after 2 years with us.
How do you socialised a dog then, as he wont go near another one it would seem in case he got hurt.
I have got him to accept people now and there is one dog he will walk with, but on the whole though, he will not pass another dog.
I watch dog Whisperer, and so does Louis, that programme makes it seem so easy.


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## Katerina

Hi John,

What a horrific and terrifying story, you must have been very distressed.

We're not dog owners - I'm scared of dogs because my daughter was attacked by one when she was a child. It had hold of her leg in its mouth and was shaking her around like a rag doll. The only way my ex husband could make it let go was to kick the bloody thing in the stomach, and eventually it let go.

We had gone to visit friends who had just had a baby, and as we walked up their front path, they opened the door and the dog - a springer spaniel cross - just ran out at my daughter and attacked her. First it jumped up and bit her stomach, then grabbed her leg.

It was really frightening, and we have both hated dogs ever since.

Dogs are animals at the end of the day, not big soft teddy bears, and as such can be unpredictable.

I strongly feel that all dogs should be kept on a lead at all times when out in public.

If a dog was loose and ran towards me, I would absolutely s**t myself, and I'm afraid that when we start motorhoming, if we go to a site where dogs are running around untethered, we'll have to turn around and leave, because I'd be too scared to get out of the van with them on the loose.


Kat x


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## citroennut

our damnation runs off the lead on the golf course- the only park/open area in this area, everywhere is golf course :roll: and is now 11yrs so he still wants to play, but his back legs are going. this means that we put him on the lead when another big dog comes near as when he plays he gets knocked over and barks at the other dog. he is always on the lead on the street - too stupid otherwise. exceptional guard dog and very protective of the girls and vehicles he is left in.
simon


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## davesport

The dog & the owner have paid the price for not having her dog under control. I'm sure the police would have been quick to bring charges if Dan had been off the lead & killed the terrier.

Have the police charged her with anything ? Namely failing to have her dog under control, maliciously accusing your dog of attacking hers or of wasting police time ? 

She should be barred from keeping animals of any description.

Sorry about the rant.

Dave.


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## sallytrafic

I believe that a dog wagging it's tail just denotes uncertainty. 

Many dogs' behaviour is worse on leads than off them mainly because you have removed one of their defence possibilities ie flight. Wearing a muzzle compounds that and makes them especially vulnerable. They now can't run nor can they fight so its up to you to protect them. Removal from the situation is the only option which makes other out of control dogs even more of a hazard.


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## skid

*recomend a muzzle*

a chap who works for me also has two greyhounds and when he took them on it was a condition they were muzzled for 6 months to find out there true social problems if any.


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## DABurleigh

The best advice I have ever given dog owners over training is to watch Cesar Millan's The Dog Whisperer. For example, for Sky viewers, there are three one-hour programs this evening on Sky 3.

It is about as simple as you can imagine, and works. After watching an episode or two it really is more of the same, though still good to see. The downside is you have to bite your tongue when out and about when you see other dog owners unwittingly causing all the problems in the first place.

Dave
(and a contented Zoe)


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## locovan

*ceaser*

http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/
this is his official web site.
I find all his tips so helpful and it is through him that I have trained Louis and he has come so far in 2 years .
We have just got back from his walk and he has not barked once at another dog.
2 cats Yes. :lol: but these 2 cats on the sea front here in Seasalter attack him everytime we go by I cant believe it what are they putting in the cat food nowadays E numbers I think :lol: as they run and chase him :roll: 
Anyway we have had a great walk today. tomorrow !! well thats another story. :roll:


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## 107088

This guy made such a difference to our 2 and if truth be known, to me and SWMBO. The collie suddenly became almost obedient, and the hepherd, well, she still has a growl at strangers, but lots and lots less than before. We've been following the theories put forward in the programmes and his book for a couple of years now, and we have discovered, that theres no quick fix, and he's so much better at it than us. 

We just keep watching and learning. Good stuff.


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## Waleem

davesport said:


> The dog & the owner have paid the price for not having her dog under control. I'm sure the police would have been quick to bring charges if Dan had been off the lead & killed the terrier.
> 
> Have the police charged her with anything ? Namely failing to have her dog under control, maliciously accusing your dog of attacking hers or of wasting police time ?
> 
> She should be barred from keeping animals of any description.
> 
> Sorry about the rant.
> 
> Dave.


Hi Dave, and thanks for your contribution. Yes, her dog paid the ultimate price for her stupidity. I asked the Police about action against her, but they felt that no action would have been taken as the dog did not survive. This seems odd to me as it was her that caused the offence, but there it is. I am out of pocket by £250 as I have had to have new glasses that were severely damaged in the scuffle and the scars and bruises on my legs are still there from trying to get the dog away from mine. I have considered legal action but it would be too expensive. I must admit that the whole episode has left me feeling very bitter.
I am though grateful for the support of most of the members who have contributed to this thread!


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## patp

See also: www.coape.co.uk 
and www.apbc.org.uk

Both of these organisations, though not as slick as Cesar, are doing ground breaking research on dog behaviour. We, as usual, are miles ahead of the americans but they make all the money :roll:

Pat


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## patp

Oh and if you are just looking for up to the minute techniques in basic training check out

www.apdt.co.uk 

Pat


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## 107088

Watching Mr. Milan, I always comment ( much to her disgust) that the owners never seem to exercise their dogs, and it always comes as a surprise to them when Caear tells them to. I, as a responsible person, of course excercise my 2 every day, twice a days, whatever the weather. 

Then, it dawned on me, yes, I exercise my 2, but I do it in such a manner which doesnt actually impress my leadership on them...so, I have now, increased the length of the walks in both time and distance, but the initial part is always on a lead, and under control. Once they have started to learn they do as thems told, then they get the affection bit of his procedure, by letting them run and play ball.

Oddly, this has had as much effect on their combined behavior, and they are, outwardly, at least better, happier and more stable dogs....I think this bloke is top hole.


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## eddievanbitz

Hi John 

What a horrid situation to be in! I find myself agreeing with SallyTraffic (again! Must stop doing this :lol: Just kidding Frank) In that we see loads of dogs in and out all the time, and a lot of the time when two dogs are let off the lead to run and play they get on so much better. 

We have friends who have a Jack Russel. It is a vicious little thing and will try and snap at anything that comes near it when it's on a lead and doesn't get it's own way (except me :wink: wont be bitten by a dog twice) Yet the thing is a different dog when running and playing.

I think that I would rather have a well trained dog off the lead near or around us than a badly trained or nutter dog on a lead around!

Glad your dogs are OK though and as the silly cow got the police involved I would happily issue proceedings in the small claims court to recover your losses to make the point that it was here fault.

regards

Eddie


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## locovan

*dogs of leads*

Thanks for all the links that have been put on this interesting subject
Im reading through them and Bandaid I find your comments fascinating.
I have followed Ceaser on the giving more excercise.
Excercise Discipline and Treat he said and I do that.
I excercise him (haven't got on roller blades yet)come home and make him go into the house behind me and then sit as I take off my coat then I take his lead off with lots of sit stay and Paw then a couple of treats.
I dont shout at him when he barks or is doing anything wrong I grab his under throat (gentle of coarse as if its a Bite) and a shoosh shoosh noise.
Its all this that is making him a better behaved dog.
the one that really got the better control was to make him walk just a bit behind me as we walk and everyone comments on how good he walks with me. 
But get another dog near him and everything goes to pot Hey!! Ho!!
Well sorry I have gone on a bit here!!! :lol: :lol:


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## 107088

Keep trying, never give up, if hes on the lead, then there must be a consequence to him doing something you dint want him to...thats where the discipline comes in. 

Oh, and food treats arent needed, just a friendly touch, or a quiet word are all the dog needs. 

I have, as said, come to the conclusion, that this leaderwhip lark, is something that has to be a full time job, and it is difficult. Just never give up.

Something else which has just sprung to mind, everytime I stop walking, when they're on leads, they sit. I dont ask now, they just do, not only that but they go out of the house after I do as well. I know its perculiar, but they have to have the fact that they're second class citizens constantly pointed out. 

Right, off to shower the fox crap off the collie now......any volunteers?


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## wakk44

eddievanbitz said:


> I think that I would rather have a well trained dog off the lead near or around us than a badly trained or nutter dog on a lead around!
> regards
> 
> Eddie


In an ideal world I am sure everyone would agree with this statement,however we don't live in an ideal world and it is a little naive to suggest this,without delving a bit more deeply.

I regard my dog as well trained,he wil do obedience- sit,stay,recall etc..,is a wonderfully loyal companion to the family,a real character and loves children.If I let him off the lead in a public place he would socialise with all the bitches and male dogs smaller than him.

If he met a larger male he would fight with staggering ferocity to the finish,it is very unpleasant to witness and a nightmare trying to separate fighting dogs,he has been to the vets on 3 occasions now to be patched up but injuries only make him worse-he will never back down to any dog.(apart from Megan,our Welshie bitch who he adores)

So I suppose I must be the owner of a well trained ''nutter dog on a lead''as Eddie so succintly puts it.I have done all I can to prevent this behaviour,the dog has been neutered and he was socialiased with lots of dogs from the age of 12 weeks.He was bitten by an Alsation at 9 months and sadly it changed him,if a big dog gets within range he will instinctively attack and I have to be aware at all times.

I would love to let him off the lead and run and play with dogs but it is not worth the risk and subsequent hassle with other dog owners so I do the responsible thing,keep him on the lead at all times and if approached by an unleashed large dog I always ask the other owner to get it under control before it gets near.

Personally,I would like to see a law where *all* dogs are required to be on a lead in public places then theoretically there would never be any dogfights and if there was there would be no doubt who is culpable.

Steve


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## locovan

*dog off lead*

*So I suppose I must be the owner of a well trained ''nutter dog on a lead' *

I back all what you have said 100% :lol: 
In fact although we have nutty dogs they are on Leash so under complete control of the owners. The one off the lead is the uncontrolled one however good he is.
Today on the beach a lady was walking with a Little dog on lead and the Rochweiler Off lead.
That dog has bitten the owner when he was attacking the postman.
You just cant trust a dog off lead is friendly. They are not always!!
A dog can turn if something spooks it you never know what that turning point might be. 
Not only that they could so easily get run over as you never know what they might suddenly chase.
There are so many if's.  :lol: :lol:


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## EssexBoy

Sorry if I've missed the point on what sounds a tragic and most regrettable situation, but for the sake of the majority of sensible & considerate dog owners I'd like to make the following points if I may:

1) Can a dog that kills another whilst still attached to a lead held by its handler be considered "under control" ?

2) What if it was the small child that had run toward the dog on the lead ? Shouldn't everyone be entitled to assume they shouldn't get bitten ?

3) If we accept the logic that "dogs should always be on a lead in public places", then we are saying that a dog should never be off the lead anywhere/anytime outside the home - as there's almost nowhere I go that's not public - the park, the beach, the woods etc. Isn't that "locking up" the potential victim not the perpetrator ?

I must admit that my two labs are by no means perfect, but are well enough behaved enough (on and off the lead - because I insist on it) to be at the very worst "nosy" when meeting other people and dogs, but would hate to be in the situation where they couldn't meet other dogs without being on a lead, for fear of being killed by them...


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## krull

We have a border collie that can be trying at times. She was a rescue dog, she was knocked abiout and never socialised. Consequently she is afraid of other dogs and shows this as dogs do by agression. 

When we meet another dog, it often wants to say hello. Our collie gets aggresssive at this point. It much worse when on her lead. The best way to deal with the situation is to let her off the lead and issue the 'go wide' command, whereby she disappears and gives the approaching people a wide berth, joining us again 100yds later. 

There will always be stupid people in the same way there will always be unpredicable dogs. That is life. You just have to deal with it. Any attempt to enforce dogs on lead will be largely ignored, and rightly so. Education on responsibility is the key.


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## patp

All of us that have been to the poorer parts of Europe and the world will have seen the "street dogs". How many times have you seen them fight?

The reason for this is that they are wandering about almost as soon as they can leave the litter. Dogs have a "window" of opportunity for socialising. It is up to 12 weeks. Yes that is not a typo.

At around 13 weeks they go through a "fear period". This is designed to make them wary of anything unfamiliar. In the wild this would have been anything not to do with their pack.

Once the window of opportunity for socialising has passed it becomes much more difficult for the dog to learn that unfamiliar things are safe. In the case of other dogs here's what can happen (and often does).

We choose our puppy. The breeder says we can pick it up at 8 weeks. That falls on a weekday so we go the next weekend - puppy is 8.5 weeks old. We ring the vet and are given an appointment for vaccinations at 10 and 12 weeks though some enlightened vets start earlier. We are told to keep the puppy in until at least a week has passed from the second vaccination. The puppy has now missed the "optimum" period when it should be experiencing everything life has to offer including all the different kinds of dogs there are out there. If they are say, a Labrador, then they will have played with litter mates and so should be ok with other Labradors. When they meet a dachsund or an old english sheepdog they will not know if they are safe to be around and so may be afraid of them. Fear is the commonest reason for aggression.

Here's what should happen. An elightened breeder (Guide Dogs are sent out to homes at 6 weeks) would have exposed our puppy to things like domestic appliances, cars. children etc etc. We then have an 8 week old, outgoing and confident, puppy to bring home.
No they don't have to "stay in". They can be carried anywhere. They can go and meet other vaccinated dogs and other vaccinated dogs can come to their house.
Most important of all is they can go to Puppy Socialisation Classes and keep going to doggy meetings of one sort or another for all of their formative years.

I took my own dog to two different puppy classes and travelled many miles to do so. She has been attacked at least six times and is very timid now but it did not turn to aggression because her puppy memories are embedded in her brain.

The reason dogs are more aggressive on the lead is that they feel "trapped". Their "fight/flight" instinct kicks in and, as they are unable to "reason" and they cannot "flee", they have no option but to use aggression to make the perceived threat go away. Once it works (other owner takes their dog away) they will use it in future.

It is curable but needs professional help and it will take a lot of time and effort on the part of the owner. More effort than most owners are willing to give I often found.

If your dog is aggressive on the lead a simple first aid measure is -
Keep the lead slack.
Turn your body away and move out of range of the other dog, if you have to, using your voice to encourage your dog rather than the lead to pull.
Ignore your dog until the other dog has passed. If you shout your dog will think you are joining in with the aggression.

Every time we tighten a lead at the approach of another dog we send signals to our dog that we are "fearful" and our dog picks it up.

This is not a cure but it does stop the situation getting worse. Go home and seek professional help. Only, of course, if you are prepared to put all the effort in that will be required.

www.coape.co.uk www.apbc.org.uk


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## longman

Thanks Patp very sound advice, sadly this level of knowledge is missing from many dog owners, including myself. I will try be more consistent in putting these into practice. Our choc lab is fantastic but can growl when in contact with other large male dogs. He was a rescue at 2 years and just wasn't socialised properly. I do try to keep the lead slack and in most cases he is fine but occasionally he will growl. Other than that he is great and gives us so much pleasure.

Thx

Andy


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## patp

Just remember Andy that he is scared inside.
This does not mean that you reasure him though. If you reasure a fearful dog they think they are right to be afraid and it makes it worse :roll: 

The best thing to do is to keep exposing him to the thing that makes him fearful but try to arange it so that he is not fearful.

Anxiety prevents learning.

You want your dog to learn not to be afraid so try to place him somewhere that helps him to relax. This is usually a certain distance from the fear stimulus. Every dog has a different distance. With some they are ok at a couple of feet some need a couple of miles :!: 

Once you find where he is relaxed keep repeating the experience until he totally ignores the other dog and plays with you. Then and only then can you shorten the distance between him and the other dog/s. If he reacts fearfully then take him back to the last stage.

You may have setbacks (such as a dog showing aggression to yours) but stay calm and go back a stage.

Another one to try is the "bar open - bar closed" technique :lol: 

If you see another dog approaching and you cannot retreat to your "critical distance" then try this. Have a ready supply of the most delicious treats you can get (liver works well). As soon as your dog spots the other dog you "open the bar" or start to give him treats. Keep going until the other dog has gone and then "close the bar".

The object of the exercise is to change your dog's perspective of other dogs. After a while (depends on the dog and the level of fear being experience by him) you should see him spot the dog and turn to you for the treats rather than start to growl :lol: He will then start to think of other dogs in a different light.

Some dogs are so anxious they cannot eat, and these will need more detailed professional help. As yours is only growling you have a chance to work with him.

And of course socialise, socialise, socialise. Off lead play with dogs that he likes is best. The opposite sex usually works best :lol: 

They never get over not being properly socialised as puppies but that doesn't mean he can't be helped.

Good Luck

Pat


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## skid

*this realy upsets me*

you want a potential killing machine the KEEP A MUZZLE ON IT AND THEN YOU WILL NEVER BE IN THIS SITUATION ,AND DON'T BLAME OTHER PEOPLE.


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## longman

*Re: this realy upsets me*



skid said:


> you want a potential killing machine the KEEP A MUZZLE ON IT AND THEN YOU WILL NEVER BE IN THIS SITUATION ,AND DON'T BLAME OTHER PEOPLE.


Not sure what you are referring to Skid?


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## iandsm

*dogs on leads*

I need to get this off my chest. I am on a C&CC site in my dressing gown and for the second time watching the t...ser who turned up yesterday let his dog off the lead and encourage it to chase the rabbits on the site. Another idiot who thinks the rules do not apply to him and his dog quite appart fronm the obvious distress to the rabbitts and us who have to watch. Going to get dressed shortly and sort this moron out. Sorry to say he is in a motorhome, what a great ambassador.Tha'ts Better!


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## locovan

*Re: dogs on leads*



iandsm said:


> I need to get this off my chest. I am on a C&CC site in my dressing gown and for the second time watching the t...ser who turned up yesterday let his dog off the lead and encourage it to chase the rabbits on the site. Another idiot who thinks the rules do not apply to him and his dog quite appart fronm the obvious distress to the rabbitts and us who have to watch. Going to get dressed shortly and sort this moron out. Sorry to say he is in a motorhome, what a great ambassador.Tha'ts Better!


This is my pet hate.
The rules say dogs on lead so why do they do they think it doesnt apply to them.
Their dogs poo and they dont see it.
Go get him the horror-- it gives us that do abide by the rules a bad name.
Good Luck :lol:


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## hannah29

having been an owner of 2 very bouncy but friendly and trained field spaniels i can agree with many comments on here. when our daughter was born 3 years ago, the dogs were moved from inside the house and kennelled outside. they were never allowed in the house. as she got older we introduced her to the dogs and she adored them, however they were just too bouncy. although they kept a certain distance from her i was still terrified of them being over friendly. as much heart break as it caused we had them re homed for the safety of our daughter. as these were bred as gundogs they were re homed at a farm with big open spaces and i am very content they are incredibly happy. about 2 weeks after, my mother in law, who had a cocker spaniel, had hers re homed too. after 3 years of having the dog it suddenly snapped at my father in law. this was a big shock to their system as it had never happened before and was done for absolutely no reason my father in law was just sat on the sofa. 
bearing in mind these dogs were all bought up from pups with children around dogs can change in a split second and no one can predict when.
i still love dogs and encourage my children if they like a dog to ask the owner if its possible to stroke them, however my youngest is still terrified when we are out in open spaces and a dog who is not leashed comes racing up to her. i have on occasions been walking when owners dogs have come bounding and jumped up at me covering me with muddy paw prints. all they can do is apologise and laugh. i find this very irresponsible of the owners. if your alone in a field with your dog fine if there are people or other dogs about keep them leashed please.
hannah


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## chrisgreen

if im alone in a field i let my dogs run loose, if another dog is in the field off a lead i will but my dogs on a lead,but if the dog makes an agressive move towards my dogs i will let them off the lead,so they can protect themself,i have seen it so many times when a dog on a lead get's atacked by a dog off a lead,and get badly injured,because the owner is trying to pull it away.

and to get back on topic,all ex raceing grayhounds should be muzzeled in a puplic place,they make lovely pets and might go years without being a problem but they are bred to hunt/chase they are sighthounds and can be unpredictable,and i have had a few.

the most friendly dog's iv had with kids are staffy's.
the only dog iv had to have put down was a exracing grayhound,lovely dog all it wanted to do was lay by the fire and chill,but it bit a child after the child was petting it and stood on its foot accidently,it was so fast i could do nothing.
that girl still got the scars to this day,and that happened over 20 years ago.


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## wakk44

chrisgreen said:


> i have seen it so many times when a dog on a lead get's atacked by a dog off a lead,and get badly injured,because the owner is trying to pull it away.
> .


I have had exactly the same problem Chris,other dogs running loose.I was put in a difficult and frightening situation by an idiotic owner of 2 huge rottweilers off the lead and bearing down on my Kerry Blue.Do I hold him on the lead like a tethered goat to the slaughter or let him go and give him a sporting chance.

The tattooed,skinhead owner(apologies for stereotyping)smirked as I shouted to him to put his dogs on a lead,so I let Ky go,2 minutes later 1 of the Rotties had run away,the other had a Kerry attached to it's face.

We both struggled to extricate his teeth and I thought I may have a problem with this man,but all he said to me was ''what sort of dog is that and where can I get one?''.

It has often been said but is so very true,it's the owners that cause the problems,not the dogs.


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## chrisgreen

had the same problem with my staffy bitch,and a german shepard,but it was getting it off his throat.
people dont realise that although kerry blue's are lovely looking dog's they are fighting dogs,and can and will look after themself's,but make loyal pets.i love erm.never had one but i do admire them.
look at the bedlington what a lovely dog that is,but will and do fight like a lion.
i will not entice my dogs to fight far from it,i hate dogs fighting.
but some owners think that all dogs in the park are fair game,and will encorage it.


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## louventadou

sorry to hear of the very unfortunate incident especially as it resulted in the death of the yorkie. However the "retired greyhound trust" when rehoming dogs supplies with them a collar,lead and muzzle! They also recommend that the dog is muzzled when taken out for a walk.


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## Waleem

An interesting selection of views and comments over the months since this happened. I will just add my final comments now that the incident has long passed and my nerves have recovered.

Both my hounds are ex-racing dogs, from the Retired Greyhound Trust. I have followed their care instructions to the letter ever since I had them. The advice given was not that they should be muzzled in public, only if they are off the lead. My hounds are NEVER off their leads unless they are in an enclosed location with no other dogs present. This is because I value their safety as well as the safety of other animals-I am quite aware that these are first and foremost hunting dogs and it is in their instinct to chase.
The situation in which I found myself was not of my making. My dogs were completely under my control, on short leads. The other animal was off the lead on a public road and was not controlled in any way. I now firmly believe that my hound was acting in self-defence (Or maybe even protecting us) from what he percieved as an attack from another animal-I dont believe that the size of the dog is relevant.

Yes, the other dog would not have been injured had my hound been muzzled, but that is a very simplistic point of view. The inference from some comments has been that this incident was entirely my fault, which I refute entirely. My dog was controlled, the other was not-sad though the dog's injuries were, I refuse to accept responsibility-if it had been properly controlled (Or indeed controlled at all!) this incident could not have happened.

Muzzling is a contentious point. As others on here have admitted, their dogs have also been involved in fights and have injured other animals. Are their dogs all muzzled ? Of course dogs can be unpredictable, so why not muzzle them all? Why single out Greyhounds? My dogs are no more likely to injure another animal whilst on the lead than any other and indeed my dogs have been snapped at by other breeds on more than one occasion.What happened to me was beyond my control, and I dont see why my dogs should suffer for another owners irresponsibility.

Anyway, I would like to thank you all for your positive comments and if my experience helps to prevent this happening even one more time, it will have been worth it. My hounds are happy and settled family pets and I love them !


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## Rainbow-Chasers

We have a Glen of Imaal so he is always on the lead unless we are on private land away from anything! lol! Funny thing is, he seems to love jack russels!

As for your dogs, they were on a lead so it was no fault of your own. The yorkie owner learned a lesson the hard way.

Only thing i could suggest to help yourself in a situation like that. Greyhounds have quite a cruel upbringing, the serious racers leave them unfed in enclosures. Those that survive (by living on wild rabbits) make the racers. Bearing this is mind, they are pack animals - although they lead a solitary racing career.

Whilst they are still a little skitty, try to relax when you pass other dogs. By winding the lead around your hand, and thinking in your mind 'oh a dog is coming' you tense. The dog with feel this tension and translate is as an alert. When he looks at another dog for more than a second, just tug him out of it. Make sure he looks either your way or straight ahead. You will find him will be calmer, as you are calmer and in control. The knock on effect is, that the other dog will lose interest too!

Hope i am not telling you how to suck eggs, but it may help until they build confidence (and you too!) They only thing is WONT help in, is an aggressive attack, which will be from behind and silent - in this case, use the greyhounds strengths and drop the leads! They will get home before you!


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