# diesel MPG ?/cost implication on the future of motorhoming.



## dragabed (May 24, 2008)

as the price of fuel and the long term supply is in doubt, which in turn will effect all of us, i was interested to reed about a germen manufacturer who was doing something about it. 
i am sure a lot of members on here would be interested in this concept, if only to reduce the cost of motorhoming to an affordable amount to allow them to continue or at least travel as they have in the past without paying the exstorsionate prices of fuel. 
the firm is elsbett and i know there has been a lot of talk and people have tried alternative fuels and additives in fuels to no avail but reed the reports and judge for yourselves. 
i am not selling or advertising or for that matter have anything to do with this company, i am a motorhomer hoping for a cheaper long term future for all us to enjoy and continue to enjoy for a long time to come.

biomotors.co.uk/ <<

Mod Note : Dragabeds post has been edited to direct the reader to the original information at the website that contains the information.


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

Is great idea.........but where are all the veg oil filling stations?


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## wooly (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi - As oilseed rape has double in value in the last year there is not going to be any cheap veg oil to use. it's a pipe dream sorry -Michael


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## dragabed (May 24, 2008)

*diesel MPG?/cost*

If you follow the link below you will find a list of UK suppliers of biodiesel and biodiesel processing equipment.

petrolprices.com - biodiesel-companies <<

Mod Note : Dragabeds post has been edited to direct the reader to the original information at the website that contains the contact details


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## ramblingon (Jul 15, 2009)

I'm sure I read some place that this is not sustainable as to take enough food growing land out of production would cause serious food shortages world wide- Hydrogen has to be the way forward surely!


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## dragabed (May 24, 2008)

hi wooly,
its the tax not the raw material commodities are priced on supply and demand


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Could a 2001 Fiat Ducato 2.8 run on this without any buggerisation of essential components of the engine :?: :?: :?:


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## viator (May 1, 2007)

This has been a concern for some years now. The poorly fed of this planet will be even worse off.
The companies promoting this are in it for financial gain much to the detriment of the population of areas they see fit to exploit.
This, one of many examples
http://www.theglobalist.com/storyid.aspx?StoryId=5518 that gives fact and figures, showing how damaging it could be.
viator


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Vanoil*



Kev_n_Liz said:


> Could a 2001 Fiat Ducato 2.8 run on this without any buggerisation of essential components of the engine :?: :?: :?:


I have two 2007 Mercedes Sprinters and two Audi Diesels a 2003 and a 2009.

All of them State something along the lines of...

Do not use Biodiesel
Nicht Fur Biodiesel.

I know there are some quantities of Biodiesel mix but not much more than 7%.

TM


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## Bethune (Apr 21, 2008)

*vegetable Oil for Diesel Fuel*

Earlier this morning there was a posting about a German company marketing a engine conversion kit that enabled the use of vegetable oil in your diesel motorhome instead of diesel. By the time I had found the graph I thought relevant the posting had disappeared, presumably because it was deemed an advertisement. However I post the graph now as it may shock some people and probably goes to explain why the price of my Mother's Pride keeps escalating.
I am all for the use of used chip oil in diesel engines but growing crops for fuel seems a step too far.
The graph by the way was from an article in yesterday's Wall Street Journal.
Philip

Mod Note: The original thread been edited and just returned to the forum so I have merged your thread into it, I hope that is OK :wink: (spykal)


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## OilyWrag (Aug 13, 2010)

*Running on veg oil*

The opinion is that you should start at 25% mix ratio.Then increase to 50/50 mix in summer and then 33% in winter..If you have a newish vehicle still under warrenty then be carefull..Biofuel could void a claim.

Chris


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## dragabed (May 24, 2008)

does any member or visitor know of any van owners who have had an Elsbett conversion carried out and what is there honest opinion after using there van on biodiesel?


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

It is important to know what your engine manufacturer has specified for Bio-Diesel. Current Fiats, Peugeots and Fords as they all have the same engine are only approved for BioDiesel available from commercial pumps.
The only way to guarantee sustainable levels of bio-diesel is to wipe out one third of the World population. People have to remember that by bringing technology to the third World, we have created growth at rates never before seen in the Western World.
Gerry


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## IanA (Oct 30, 2010)

Our local buses run on old cooking oil - I think they are struggling to maintain their supply as others start using it as fuel.


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## andygrisswell (Dec 7, 2007)

If bio fuel use increases what do you think will happen to the tax on it. 
As for 1 third of the worlds population, well we can do without them.


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## jud (Aug 15, 2009)

*bio-fuel*

hi all we do all our m/hing abroad and its bad enough trying to find re-refillable gas depots with out more worry we are happy we remapped 4m.p.g extra :roll:


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## ramblingon (Jul 15, 2009)

andygrisswell said:


> As for 1 third of the worlds population, well we can do without them.


Which third would that be exactly?


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## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

*Lighter and smaller Motorhomes will be the way forward*

I agree with Viator and others about the many detrimental effects on the environment of changing agricultural land use from producing food to producing bio fuels. The same goes for the continuing destruction of rain forests to be replaced by palm oil plantations. I don't see any sense in bio fuel. It won't reduce overall CO2 emissions. Bio fuel is a short-term crutch for American addiction to fossil fuels. In the USA a 6000 lb SUV seems to be a benchmark size for a family car. That must change. There is a direct relationship between vehicle weight and fuel consumption.

Until the electric vehicle becomes a viable replacement for the internal combustion-engined vehicle we all will have to extend the typical mileage we can get from a gallon of petroleum products such as diesel because it will become less affordable for non-essential or leisure use, as competition for global resources from devoping countries such as China, India and Brazil grows. We might even see the return of fuel rationing - this nearly happened in 1974 - I remember being issued with a petrol ration book, although it was never used.

Improving engine and transmission efficiency has made modern MHs more fuel efficient, but that route seems to be facing the law of diminishing returns. I doubt if there is much scope for further big gains in this area of technical development. So, we will have to look to reducing significantly the gross weight of MHs as the next big area for significant gains in overall diesel consumption. If you want to carry on MH touring for about 5000 or 6000 miles per annum the cost of fuel will be higher up the priority list than available payload to carry all the heavy kit and gadgets.

If you go back to (say) 1986 a 6.3 metre coachbuilt MH with a gross weight of 2,800 Kg was regarded as big. Today that would be a very small entry-level MH. Most van converions today are heavier. A big European coachbuilt MH is now over 8 metres, with a 5,000 Kg gross weight.

Nowadays MHers with 4,500-5,000 Kg 3 axle coachbuilts are posting on this forum about aspiring to reach average fuel consumption in the 20-24 mpg range. Also, about sufficient payload for all the extras needed to make touring as comfortable as possible. If (or when) the price of diesel breaks the £2 per litre barrier they are going to moan big time about their high running costs. I would not rule out the possibility that UK diesel pump prices will hit £3 or even £5 per litre before 2025. The price of Propane will rocket too.

10 years from now, used 4,500-5,000 Kg 3 axle coachbuilts from the current era could be hard to re-sell simply because only the very well-off would want to pay for the fuel to tour extensively in them and gas to heat them. They will be like the American RVs that seem to spend their time on this side of the pond relatively static, with low annual mileages.

By 2020 few will open their wallets to buy a MH that is not capable of 40-50 mpg. If we still want large MHs, then manufacturers will have to abandon the separate chassis / coachbuilt body, and design integrated habitation bodyshells, to save weight. This happened in the car industry decades ago. My expectation is that 2500 Kg monocoque A-Classes built with advanced lightweight materials will become the luxury MH of the future. Small converted PVCs will dominate the mass market once again. Payload of 1000+ Kg will be a thing of the past.

The cottage industry of small manufacturers producing hand-built MHs in the hundreds or low thousands will go the way of the domestic UK car and motorcycle industries. China is already making MHs for its domestic market. European manufacturers beware!

SD


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## dragabed (May 24, 2008)

your assumptions seem very feasible" SPEEDYDUX "but selfishly i hope you are wrong especial with regard to prices and time scale of it happening. 
The research and production of the type of vehicle you describe will not come from the motorhome section of the transport industry but from the bus and coach/truck manufacturers. 
motorhome converters will then pick it up and adjust to suit there needs as they have in the past


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## goldi (Feb 4, 2009)

Afternnon folks, I,m with the diesel camp on this. 
There is already foof riots in certain parts of the world which is no good for anybody on the planet

For forseable future we should support B.P. Shell and all the other oil companies until their is another solution



norm


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## ramblingon (Jul 15, 2009)

I sometimes subscribe to the conspiracy theory (there is an alternative to oil but everyone is keeping quite till all the oil has gone) but that would seem suicidal if global warming is a fact- I'm too small to know- but I could see how technology could never advance because of the lack of need whilst we have the oil still around, It was the antiques road show that stimulated this thought! China apparently missed the "discovery of glass" out of it's evolution simply because of it's success with porcelain 8O!


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## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

ramblingon said:


> I sometimes subscribe to the conspiracy theory (there is an alternative to oil but everyone is keeping quite till all the oil has gone) but that would seem suicidal if global warming is a fact- I'm too small to know- but I could see how technology could never advance because of the lack of need whilst we have the oil still around, It was the antiques road show that stimulated this thought! China apparently missed the "discovery of glass" out of it's evolution simply because of it's success with porcelain 8O!


Ramblingon, I think you have a point.

Did you ever see that film "Who Killed the Electric Car"? It documents the way that GM developed a commercially viable electric car, the EV 1, apparently successfully, in 1996. The cars were all leased to selected customers, so GM retained ownership, but too soon the entire fleet of EV1s was quietly recalled by GM and scrapped.

The conspiracy theorists' explanation (as I recall it) is that GM must have realised that electric cars would always be less profitable than its range of petrol engined cars, mainly because electric cars have little need for consumable spare parts and scheduled maintenance or repairs, which threatened a very profitable part of GM's business, and also the income of its dealer network.

SD


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

Yeah right.

The first thing to go on your typical laptop computer is the battery. Doesn't die, it just holds less and less charge. That issue won't disappear just because there's a bank of batteries powering a car. There might not be the mechanical moving parts on an electric car, but there's going to be a nice little earner in replacing the batteries. You think the range on them isn't great when they're new, try them after a couple of years. And that's before we even get onto the issue of how these spent batteries will be disposed of. Against that backdrop I don't think the conspiracy theorists have thought this one through.

A better example of innovation being stifled is the impact of legislation that defacto mandated catalytic converters on the development of (what ultimately probably would have been superior) lean burn technology. Add a catalytic converter, no point in the lean burn technology - killed stone dead. The fact that it would have avoided using precious metals and dealing with disposal of spent cats was lost.

One thing intrigues me...if the Chinese used porcelain instead of glass, how did they see out of their windows? :lol: (yes I know...didn't have them...)

Paul


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