# No earth, safe or not?



## nickoff (Oct 11, 2005)

3 weeks ago whilst making our way back to Dunkirk to catch the ferry after taking in France, Belgium, Netherlands and Germany we stopped off at a campsite in France. After setting up the van I hooked up to the camp power board only to find that our plug-in indicator was showing that there wasn't an earth. Just to be sure I tried our spare lead which made no difference. I mentioned it to the chap in charge who after looking at the power board assured me that there was nothing wrong with it and so the problem must be somewhere on our motorhome. To be on the safe side I decided to not hook up at all. A little later another van parked next to us with UK number plates. After they had set up I popped over to see if they were having the same problem with the leccy as us. The chap told me that his indicator showed that there wasn't an earth but he wasn't at all bothered and was staying hooked up. Is the power so low on sites that there is no danger or would others do as we did and not take the risk? 

Nick.


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## EJB (Aug 25, 2007)

220v is 220v!
Have never checked electrical connections in any country so I have saved about 60 years of worry and concern. Most Caravan/motorhome internal set ups are quite adequate to keep you safe. I used to be a spark but have forgotten what to look for now anyway!:wink2:


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

I suspect that the same question has been levelled repeatedly at virtually every piece of gizmology with orange wire - the labels say they are "double insulated" whatever that means......

But we all use them....

Of course the trips will still work if there is a problem and I very much doubt that any of us would be taking a mains powered device apart while it is still connected and switched on.....

But perhaps I am wrong....

I would use the supply but exercise caution over its use (if that is not Double Dutch).

If you ever use a Honda generator, they are NOT earthed but still seem to be safe, in fact I believe they specifically say NOT to earth them - but why I do t know.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Earths are only there to safeguard any fault. If no faults no problems. 
It all depends on our individual chemical make up as to whether we might be affected in the event of a fault developing and no earth. I can feel a slight tingle on somethings I know there is no earth as I have deliberately removed the earth wire from that item. ELCBs and other modern trips can sometimes be too sensitive.

I agree with TED being an ex spark and don't go looking for trouble.

Ray.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Nick


Change the MH - to one that does not tell you if you have an earth connection. 



OR like us do not go on campsites and have no EHU cable.


We have lots of appliances at home that only have 2 pins.


What do you have in the MH that can draw enough current to worry about the need to earth? Isn't everything fused?


Geoff(not a sparks)


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

Once upon a time I "cured" a squeaky floorboard by hammering a nail in the middle of it. The power went off because I'd gone through the mains cable which was underneath it, a large current flowed from live (line if you prefer) to neutral (or possibly earth) and the fuse melted ("blew"). That's the purpose of a fuse.

Most domestic appliances will have at least a 3A fuse: 0.2A will kill you so don't expect to be saved by a fuse!

Alternatively, most modern systems require the current flowing in the live wire to be balanced by the current flowing in the neutral wire. If they are out of balance by, typically, 0.03A, they will "trip" and the power will be cut off. Usually that difference is caused by current flowing to earth, possibly via a human body; so you are "safe".

Imagine that your metal framed fire or metal kettle etc develops a fault and the live wire comes into contact with the metal. IF that metal is not earthed then current cannot flow along that route so the safety device will not operate. Imagine that you touch the metal; your eyes will not tell you that it is "live"! Now current may flow through you and the safety circuitry will come into play and you will be "safe", although you may have uttered a few choice expletives before the power is cut off. If you are wearing thick rubber-soled boots, the current will be smaller than if you are in firm contact with a large sheet of metal: it's all down to the resistance of the path.

Volts shock; current kills.

Gordon


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

As you say Gordon you managed to hammer a nail in the middle of a board when everyone knows cables and pipes are run along the middle of boards.
Y'assee in a perfect world you would have missed the wires and faults going to earths would not hurt people. 

The likelihood of a metal kettle or fire which is probably double insulated developing a fault and not tripping the ECLB is pretty remote. So a 'shock' is even more remote and being actually hurt is even more remote. I would say winning the lottery or being struck by lightening is more likely. 

But if your determined to stand on wet grass in leather shoes and grab hold of a bit of bare metal of a camper with no earth and a fault actually exists, you might feel it.
What are the odds?

Ray.
p.s. amps don't kill unless you have plenty of volts to create the path. We can hold both terminals of a 12v 660a battery but try 660v and 12a.


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## KeithChesterfield (Mar 12, 2010)

This Link may help - or not .....

It's never caused bother or worries for us while we've travelled abroad for a decade or more.

https://www.toughleads.co.uk/pages/european-sockets


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## nickoff (Oct 11, 2005)

Thanks Keith. Your link seems to be referring to different electric plugs whilst abroad. My question is that the lead that I use is the standard UK version that fits into many of the supply units whilst in Europe. I have come across the 2 pin connection and that's not a problem as we have a continental plug on a short lead that connects to our usual lead. The site that we were staying on had the UK type of plug in.

Nick.


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## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

Hi,
I am open to correction but I was always taught that in the UK the "Neutral" is earthed at the sub-station and that is why all UK plugs etc. have Live, Neutral and Earth marked. When I was re-building barns in France a few years back and working alongside french artisans, I was told that that was not the case in France. The "Neutre" was not earthed at all. They couldn't understand why it should be! Hence or maybe as a result they don't show which terminal in a plug or socket is "Phase", "Neutre", or "Terre". There was talk of always using the left terminal as "Phase" but no-one would say from what direction the "left" was viewed. All the cables were colour coded but some even allowed "black" to be "phase"!!
So when you plug into many French campsites or aires you can find that the Live and Neutral is reversed as checked by your (UK) tester. 
When I last had a UK built motorhome it would tell me to disconnect immediately and rectify the issue. I used to think that there would be catastrophic results if I didn't. I had a "euro" plug and socket with reversed connections (suitably marked with red warnings) in order to correct things. I have since had three continental built motorhomes with the same makes of electrics as the UK one and I have not had any problems.
At one aire at which I had found the Live and Neutral to be reversed, I later found a chap from the local Commune working on it. I commented on the reversed polarity. He just said "So What". "Just make sure that you have both poles disconnected before you try to dismantle anything." How sensible even if you are not in France!!

HyFy

PS The same school taught me "Volts shock but Coulombs kill" (1 Coulomb = 1 Ampere in one second). But I guess the practical difference is academic if you will excuse the pun!


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## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

In the UK, mains electrical switches only connect/disconnect the 'live' side of the supply hence why we have to wire them the 'right' way otherwise the appliance could still become live in the event of a fault. My understanding is that other countries use double pole switches which disconnect both sides, so it doesn't matter which way round the wires are connected.


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