# Should I start it up or not?



## Oil-on-the-Road (Oct 16, 2009)

Hi. I haven't moved my van since Tuesday now and it has a good 10 inches of snow & ice on it. I had been putting the gas heating on for an hour each day, but the gas bottle ran out on Wednesday.

Thinking of starting the engine today but worried that the benefit of warming the engine up for a few minutes would be outweighed by the drain on the battery - electric hook-up is not practical at the moment as is going for a drive - I don't think I could get the van out of our street. Also, I don't like the idea of idling a diesel engine if there is no good reason for it.

Any thoughts? would you start up or leave it and hope for the best?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Why do you wish to warm up the engine?

Why have you had the heating on briefly?

Is the van drained down?

Do you suffer from vehicle battery drain given you don't have a Fiat X250?

Dave


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

Leave well alone. The alternator won't charge the battery unless it has a good run...idling won't do much.

As Dave says, why would you want to start it?


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Leave off for the time being unless you absolutely must go out and get more gas.

Why run the heating every day though?

It is most important that you have fully drained the vehicle - fresh / grey and black water and the flush water from the loo and left the taps open as well as the drain valves so that odd dribbles can exit (from what i was told). After that, if it cools down to a low temperature does it matter?

We prepare our van for winter in November (or after last scheduled trip) as is very easy to overlook as has been mentioned elsewhere on MHF.

Starting the engine up will drain the vehicle battery considerably - remember batteries do not give the maximum ooomph (technical term) when the temperature is low so starting it will drain a large amount out which will take a lot of running time to replace. I read once that just ordinary starting of a petrol engined car requires about 5 miles of driving to replace the drain - a diesel is heavier to turn over and would take even more IMO. So leave for the time being then take for run when conditions allow.

Dave


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## Oil-on-the-Road (Oct 16, 2009)

You are all, of course, quite right :wink: It IS drained down (caught it just in time after the first sub-zero night before Christmas) and I'm only bein tempted to fiddle with it because we are newbies and it's our favourite toy. I think we'd bring it into the house and wrap it up in a blanket by the fire if we could :lol: 

I shall leave it well alone for the moment and content myself with giving it an affectionate pat when passing.

Thanks for the good advice

Steve


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## loddy (Feb 12, 2007)

I wouldn't idle the engine to warm her up. Idling without load will do more damage to the bores than leaving it alone

Loddy


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

If you put the heating on you are likely to cause condensation.

Put some dishes of salt on the table and work surface. This will draw some moisture out of the atmosphere.

Dave p


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## vardy (Sep 1, 2006)

Well, I've been out and done just that. The van normally gets about each day with loads of idling in Sheffy traffic! So I've been out and 'idled' it, playing house for nearly an hour.

No doubt although I did it on advice from MHF members there will now be alternative posts that I have wrecked the engine!!! Bring it on guys - I am brave!! 

However, I do now have a frost/snow/ free van with tentative report that all seems OK. And as they have just finally gritted, a little trip beckons.

Unless, that is, - the engine falls out from the 'idling'. Negative advice is just as gratefully accepted - so WHAT have I done to it folks???


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## loddy (Feb 12, 2007)

Well I believe idling causes glazed bores which in turn will induce oil burning and lack of compression, if you watch the floating people (narrow boats and cruisers) they idle their engines in drive at about 1500 rpm, of course they are tied up so they create load

Loddy

P.S retired mechanic of 40+ years


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

I have just run mine too Vardy. Must admit I would normally take it for a 10mile drive but as you say not practical at the moment. I have to use it after the weekend so wanted to make sure it would start. Went first turn of the ignition, no trouble.

peedee


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## vardy (Sep 1, 2006)

Glad yours started up too Peedee.

Hi Loddy, I always wondered why boats did that! Will I have had time to do anything significant to it just this once? I never do it usually - always pull away as I was told to.

Think the snow and batteries situation got me spooked - and forgot the engine!!!! nfire:


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## Ian-rapido (Mar 24, 2009)

Our van is stored away from the house, no hook up etc. 

Its probably covered in snow & freezing inside but so are all the other vans in storage.

Gas is expensive so why heat the van when not using it?

We brought the van back to the house a few weeks ago and I put the heating on for a few hours, the inside then condensed (especially the windscreen).

We only go to the van when we use it. We used the van beginning of Sep and then didnt start it till end of October, engine started fine and no solar panel etc. plus the alarm is on. Haven't stayed in it overnight since Oct half term but took it for a day trip (60 miles each way) on New years day. When we collected the van it was covered in snow/ice, turned the ignition, orange warm up light came on, then once off I tried to start but she didnt want to go. Second try, light came on and off in a few seconds and engine fired fine.

Hopefully we will have some warmer weather soon and we will be using the van a few times a month.

Ian.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

loddy said:


> I wouldn't idle the engine to warm her up. Idling without load will do more damage to the bores than leaving it alone
> Loddy


Hmmmmmm??

I'm not about to disagree, but a whole lot of engines must have been damaged in the last few days as they idled for ages in all the traffic hold-ups caused by the weather. 8O

A tailback of several miles (not unusual) could easily take an hour to get through (or even more) and as has also been intimated, the vehicle battery would soon run flat if the engine was repeatedly switched off and re-started . . . even with a warm engine.

"Rock" and "Hard Place" spring to mind. 8O

>> This << is quite a good article on the subject and it has some suggestions for prevention and cure . . . but not how to keep warm if stranded on the motorway overnight in a blizzard!! :roll:

Dave


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## Groper (May 17, 2007)

To idle or not to idle? 
When we did a M/H tour of New Zealand the instructions with the van said: On first start up you must idle the engine for 5 minutes before pulling away.The engine was a 2.5 litre turbo diesel.

Is the connection to MHF slow today?It is taking an age to load a new page.


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## vardy (Sep 1, 2006)

Yup - it's not you, It's slow today.


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

I wouldn't get into the debate on idling or not. However starting the engine and leaving it idling will do very little to recharge the battery. So you take a chunk of power out of the battery to start the engine (particularly so diesel engines, particularly so in the cold) and put little back in. Therefore diminishing the chances of it restarting next time.

I think I'm resigned to having to jump start mine. It's been 5 weeks since I last used it, stored outside with no hookup. I went and had a check a couple of weeks ago, and the vehicle battery was holding up well (12.7V), but the storage place was an icerink so it wasn't practicable to take it out...thought I'd leave it a couple of weeks, not realising the weather would get even worse. 

Just hope there's enough in it to operate the central locking so I can get to the lever to open the bonnet to jumpstart, meaning I don't have to go through the rigmarole of taking up the cab floor to get to the battery to put a powerpack on to operate the central locking to open the passenger door to get to the the release to open the bonnet to get to the jumpstart terminals. Whatever else the issues with the X/250, the designers should be shot on this aspect. Still, could be worse, could be like Mrs R's Merc A-class which has decided to randomly open the tailgate when it gets too cold....


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## pete4x4 (Dec 20, 2006)

After 6 weeks in storage no hook up, started my X250 straight away today still -4 degrees, no issues, batteries had lost little charge in that time.


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## Kelcat (Apr 20, 2008)

When we were at Langdale over new year the two vans each side of us (big things) started their engines & idled for a couple of hours each morning - I assumed to boost their leisure batteries or internal heating. Seemed odd at the time - but who am I to judge.


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## Oil-on-the-Road (Oct 16, 2009)

Whe I was in tour management, the big sleeper coaches used to idle to keep on-board services running. Mind you - most of the drivers were complete loonies  One of them once deliberately waved me into a parked car while pretending to direct me reversing in a dark car park!!

Steve


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## loddy (Feb 12, 2007)

short periods of idling is OK such as traffic jams etc. but doing it on a regular basis like every week during the winter without a run well you take your chances especialy on a new motor

Your also clocking up miles (cambelt)

Loddy


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Big American trucks idle away all night and sometimes don't get turned off for weeks. Them and our RV had an idle adjust to raise the revs to 11 or 1200 to keep oil and charging to an acceptable level.

Most annoying when your trying to sleep in a truck-stop.

Ray.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

loddy said:


> short periods of idling is OK such as traffic jams etc. but doing it on a regular basis like every week during the winter without a run well you take your chances especialy on a new motor
> 
> Your also clocking up miles (cambelt)
> 
> Loddy


Loddy, Any idea what MH dealers do whilst they are on their forecourts?
Do they start them and run them regularly? I have seen new ones at dealers for some many months and just wondered. 
Ray


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## Mick757 (Nov 16, 2009)

When i go to 'warm up' my van for work on frrezing mornings, i fire it up then wedge a stick twixt the accelerator pedal and steering fascia above it. I raise the revs to about double the idle speed, till the heater warms and thaws the screen etc. I might then turn it off for ten minutes while im ready to go, and when i restart, it fires after half a turn. Ive done this with all my vans over the years to no detriment. Theyve all seen a good 150k, with no smoking when ive sold them on.


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## Malc (May 9, 2005)

And remember Oil-on-the-Road, the loony drivers on the tour buses did not own them, somebody else would pay for the damage!
However, having experianced some low temps. with D/D coaches fitted with services, we used to run the first 5 out daily, all night to keep the toilets and wash room free from ice as well as the heating at full temp, even ran Diesel heaters all night.


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## waggy3 (Jun 24, 2008)

*should i start it up or not*

hi there.
firstly dont flatten your battery, unles you can recharge it, as a discharged battery can freeze, and burst its case.
when i drove coaches in the winter, after dropping the passengers,i would find a place to park where the running of the engine would not bother anyone.by the noise or the fumes.
sometimes for two or three hours if there was no other way of keeping warm. 
this is a common practice if there is no other heating sorce on the coach. 
we always carried a piece of wood or used the hand sweeping brush to jam the accelerator pedall down to increase the revs.
years ago there was a gearbox fitted to some lorrieswhich if you did this the top bearings in it were not getting enough lubrication and over a long period would fail as some shafts were not getting splash fed to keep them oiled.
as for chargeing alternators give chargeing at low revs .not like the old dynamos which had to run at a lot higher revs to give a desent charge.
roy


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## vardy (Sep 1, 2006)

Brilliant answers! I find some things very hard to understand when facts get too technical. Not dumb blonde - but lack the basics to be able to weigh up ongoing advice.

Reading all the different views, I have managed to stop worrying and get a better idea of the swings and roundabouts!

In googlind 'idling' I also found many American states that were actively addressing this at varying levels of prohibition. - From advisory leaflets to differing motor industry governors and even encouraging neighborhood 'snitches!

No doubt it will be as frum here soon and I would have been arrested this afternoon if I was in US


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## tony50 (Oct 16, 2007)

FIrst ,Don't rev. the engine too high when engine is cold ,this will cause 
"cold welding " damage to the engine pistons , this is where the alloy pistons "score"/ "scrape damage"and can jam the piston rings so they can't float and make a good compression seal /oilseal against the side of the cylinder bores , Believe me I went on a Manufactuers course , once damage is done you it's an engine strip!
2nd, keep starting up and cooling down the engine causes condensation and where does it go ? in the engine oil ,it happens all the time when using the motor normally,so why do it more than necessary .
3rd . Don't let your batteries get flat , twice flat and they start to deteroiate.
5th. don't turn the engine over until the battery goes nearly flat/flat , Believe it or not when the Starter motor senses the battery is getting flat it tries to draw even more current and that starts to damage the starter motor ,if it does not start after 4/5 tries it probaly ain't going to start anyhow. Tony.


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## reflogoff11 (Jun 8, 2008)

Someone will have to tell me just what is wrong with idling an engine for the purpose of warming up the interior, and charging batteries.

The thermostat ensures the engine gets to working temperature asap, which means the oil is warmed and circulated efficiently ( so no glazed bores). We now have Alternators not Dynamo`s that will give back the battery power lost at start.

Do agree that a slight increase in RPM will speed things up.

Barrie


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## reflogoff11 (Jun 8, 2008)

Added ---
Agree that very high revs at cold start are a no no, although modern oils are so good that a film of oil sticks to all working surfaces thereby providing lubrication at start, even if stood unused for long periods.

Barrie


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## pete4x4 (Dec 20, 2006)

Nobody has mentioned yet that it is against the law to leave your engine running if your not present in the vehicle and you can be prosecuted for it. same if you leave your keys in the ignition.
Not sure if you leave the engine running and the doors locked though!!


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## ShinyFiat (Jun 2, 2009)

if you want to start it, start it, if you dont, dont, you know your van better rthan anyone on here


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

pete4x4 said:


> Nobody has mentioned yet that it is against the law to leave your engine running if your not present in the vehicle and you can be prosecuted for it. same if you leave your keys in the ignition.
> Not sure if you leave the engine running and the doors locked though!!


In a private driveway????

peedee


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## pete4x4 (Dec 20, 2006)

even on a private driveway


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## eribiste (May 1, 2005)

I shall leave it well alone for the moment and content myself with giving it an affectionate pat when passing.

Steve[/quote]

Steve, you're as barmy as I am! I give mine an affectionate pat as I go past. Mind you, I do the same with my wife as well!

Errrm, I often go inside and sit in the driver's seat without going anywhere too. Sad or what?


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

eribiste said:


> Errrm, I often go inside and sit in the driver's seat without going anywhere too. Sad or what?


I do hope you were referring to the motorhome with that comment...


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

pete4x4 said:


> even on a private driveway


Could you quote the section of the RTA which makes it a criminal offence to leave the key in the ignition whilst the vehicle is on a private road or driveway. Could you also quote the section which applies to leaving the engine running whilst on private property.

The only section I can find says:
" Regulation 107(2)(a). This states that no person shall cause or permit to be on any road any motor vehicle which is not attended by a person duly licensed to drive it unless the engine is stopped and the parking brake is effectively set. Exemptions to the requirements of this Regulation as to the stopping of the engine include a fire brigade vehicle, the engine of which is being used for any fire brigade purpose".

Many thanks,
Ray


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## hblewett (Jan 28, 2008)

rayc said:


> pete4x4 said:
> 
> 
> > even on a private driveway
> ...


I'm sure the road traffic Act only applies to Highways, though what is and is not a 'highway' is in itself a complex matter. (eg. - a private road over which the public has general access is subject to highway and traffic law). And it is now possible to be prosecuted for driving offences on private land, which is why supermarkets now put in Give Way lines and even signs in their supermarkets, so they are not implicated in any argument over liability if there is a crash.

But private driveways of ordinary folk - I don't think so 
:?

But if you do leave your vehicle running on the drive and it is stolen, your insurance won't pay out, so its not a good idea to go off and leave it!


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

No offence to leave engine running when unattended on private driveway


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## ShinyFiat (Jun 2, 2009)

pete4x4 said:


> Nobody has mentioned yet that it is against the law to leave your engine running if your not present in the vehicle and you can be prosecuted for it. same if you leave your keys in the ignition.
> Not sure if you leave the engine running and the doors locked though!!


pete, what a load of ********


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## camoyboy (May 9, 2005)

While I agree starting and idling an engine from cold for long periods can be detrimental, it is not going to do major long term damage *unless *it is done regularly, without a proper run to heat the engine components under load.
Modern oils will minimise sludging created by the excess condensation formed when the engine is not brought quickly up to temperature, but it will need changing more often. Trucks and coaches that idle for long periods have usually had a long run, so the engine is hot and able to cope better with this.
One big problem with condensation is in the exhaust system. We have all seen the amount of water dripping from exhausts when the vehicle is not up to temperature. When the vehicle is stationary, all this water stays in the silencer boxes, and mixed with the carbon deposits, rots the system from the inside. With nornal driving the exhaust gets hot enough to evapourate this water away.
So if you want to prolong the life of your exhaust system and minimise premature wear on your engine, don't start the engine unless you can regularly take it for a proper run and warm it through thoroughly.
Colin


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## vardy (Sep 1, 2006)

Thank you for the info about condensation. I am still on the learning curve and taking all advice in avidly! 

- Helena.


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## oldenstar (Nov 9, 2006)

Sorry you guys but I do not drain down. Most of the time I am fortunate to be able to leave the van on hook-up from the garage, and the Battery Master ensures that both batteries are kept fully charged.

I use a small fan heater on the 1Kw setting at something just above the frost setting. With a roof vent just cracked slightly open I have not seen any condensation, and it keeps the frost off the van too.

On the subject of engine temperature, ticking over, etc., I did notice on a trip of about 8 or 9 miles yesterday (Brixham to Torquay) that the engine had only reached just over half the normal operating temperature at the time of arrival. Brrr-Global warming or what?

Paul


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## pete4x4 (Dec 20, 2006)

ShinyFiat said:


> pete4x4 said:
> 
> 
> > Nobody has mentioned yet that it is against the law to leave your engine running if your not present in the vehicle and you can be prosecuted for it. same if you leave your keys in the ignition.
> ...


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ngine-running-car-defrosted-outside-home.html

And only on a driveway if behind gates as your driveway is accesible by jo public


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

pete4x4 said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504888/Driver-fined-leaving-engine-running-car-defrosted-outside-home.html
> 
> And only on a driveway if behind gates as your driveway is accesible by jo public


 The Daily mail article was about a car left on the road "Inspector Jo Keay, geographic co-ordinator for Copull and Wheeton, said: "As the car was parked on the road unattended and left running with the keys in the ignition the individual was committing an offence of 'quitting'.

Please quote the section of the RTA that applies to 'quitting' whilst the vehicle is on your private driveway. The RTA says "on a road" . Have you a single case history where someone has been prosecuted and convicted on the scenario you describe?

This is a good example of quitting:
http://nutsville.com/?p=981


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

rayc said:


> Inspector Jo Keay, geographic co-ordinator for Copull and Wheeton, said: _"As the car was parked on the road unattended and left running with the keys in the ignition the individual was committing an offence of 'quitting'." _


She also said, "_The officer tried to offer words of advice to the individual but the male refused to accept them and so the officer was left with no option but to issue a fixed penalty notice of £30_"

Assuming this is accurate, it explains everything . . .

. . . to everyone except the Daily Mail reporter, who carefully made a big issue of it before casually dropping in these quotes well into the article. :roll:

Dave


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

> Most of the time I am fortunate to be able to leave the van on hook-up from the garage, and the Battery Master ensures that both batteries are kept fully charged.


Can you explain please?

Surely if you are on EHU your leisure and engine batteries will be charged so you don't need the battery master in those circumstances?


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

Depends on you MH. I'm pretty sure ours charges the leisure battery only, not the vehicle batttery.


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## cje1 (Nov 13, 2007)

Some of the comments have worried me somewhat.

I run the (Fiat Ducato 2.8jtd) to charge the batteries when wild camping. Is this a complete no-no from an engine damage possibility?

I also thought an alternator gave full charge at all revs too.

Help?


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## pete4x4 (Dec 20, 2006)

rayc said:


> pete4x4 said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504888/Driver-fined-leaving-engine-running-car-defrosted-outside-home.html
> ...


Rayc
I can't give you an example of anyone that has been prosecuted but as I understand it the law has changed (2009?) to anywhere that the public has access to. So for example I think that if you SORN your vehicle and it is not behind locked gates then it must still have a valid insurance and MOT.
I suggest that in the same vein leaving your vehicle running on your drive way is the same as the road unless you can deny access to the public.


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## CliffyP (Dec 19, 2008)

pete4x4 said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > pete4x4 said:
> ...


You do not need tax, mot or insurance to have a vehicle up your drive, it is not on the road. What do you do with a sorn vehicle, drag it into the hall.

Public access is not your front garden it is not a public area, it is clearly private land.


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## dangerous (May 1, 2005)

Dont think I can afford to start mine anymore.................


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