# Helppppppppppp !



## wp1234 (Sep 29, 2009)

Looking to buy a new 2011 Dakota and am getting a little confused as to what a Euro 5 engine really is and how one actually identifies the real deal .
The offer I have had is so attractive that I’m beginning to get a tad suspicious and you’ve guessed it a little nervous.
The engine offered on the new style AT Dakota I’ve seen is a Fiat 2. 3 JTD 130bhp and I’ve also been offered a free £300 Wowpower re map to bring it up to what I really wanted which was a Dakota on a Fiat Euro 5 150bhp engine.

Am I doing the right thing going for the deal right now ? is this really a Euro 5 engined vehicle ? does a remap deliver the goods ?


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: HELPPPPPPPPPPP !*



wp1234 said:


> Looking to buy a new 2011 Dakota and am getting a little confused as to what a Euro 5 engine really is and how one actually identifies the real deal .
> The offer I have had is so attractive that I'm beginning to get a tad suspicious and you've guessed it a little nervous.
> The engine offered on the new style AT Dakota I've seen is a Fiat 2. 3 JTD 130bhp and I've also been offered a free £300 Wowpower re map to bring it up to what I really wanted which was a Dakota on a Fiat Euro 5 150bhp engine.
> 
> Am I doing the right thing going for the deal right now ? is this really a Euro 5 engined vehicle ? does a remap deliver the goods ?


I do not believe it is a Euro 5 engine. When was the MH built by Autotrail ? Autotrail are fitting them in their 2012 model range, is yours a 2012 model? The Euro 5 engine was only available from September . Together with the Euro 5 engine the cab has had some mods, do the heater controls look like they do in the photo?

Glasses guide says "Fiat claim fuel consumption improvements in the region of 14% over the current Euro 4 engines, whilst service intervals for the new powerplants stand at an impressive 30,000 miles. 
Other upgrades include a redesigned dashboard, controls and instrument pack. 
The Euro 5 Ducato goes on sale across mainland Europe at the end of June, with right-hand drive models available in September.

http://wheelworldreviews.co.uk/car-reviews/auto-trails-2012-models-get-a-10-year-water-warranty/


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## wp1234 (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: HELPPPPPPPPPPP !*



rayc said:


> wp1234 said:
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> 
> > instrument pack.
> ...


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## ched999uk (Jan 31, 2011)

I am not positive but does the V5 (reg document) not state what emissions it complies with?
Alternative the transport for London emissions site should give you some info if you have a reg number.

All the above is immaterial if it isn't registered yet?

Also I would be a little concerned with a 'power upgrade' that wasn't from the manufacturer. How does it effect the warantee of the base vehicle?

Maybe easy way is get chassis number and ask Fiat.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: HELPPPPPPPPPPP !*



wp1234 said:


> rayc said:
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> > wp1234 said:
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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

If the dash is black then 99% certain it is Euro 5 and is certainly a 2012 model year. The WOW power remap is excellent and has no effect on the warranty. Chelston Motorhomes in Somerset are a Fiat Authorised Agent as well as an Auto Trail Agent, AS WELL as a WOW Power Agent.
Do the deal and join the club with your 1 years FREE membership invitation! You wont regret it!


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## wp1234 (Sep 29, 2009)

ched999uk said:


> Also I would be a little concerned with a 'power upgrade' that wasn't from the manufacturer. How does it effect the warantee of the fiat


Thanks for the info

I'm given to understand that a re map cannot be detected by the manufaturer anyway so the warranty is pretty safe .


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

> I'm given to understand that a re map cannot be detected by the manufaturer anyway so the warranty is pretty safe .


Sorry, but it can.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

DJP said:


> > I'm given to understand that a re map cannot be detected by the manufaturer anyway so the warranty is pretty safe .
> 
> 
> Sorry, but it can.


When 'spacerunner' John had an ECU failure on his X250 Fiat insisted on sending their bods to replace it. John did think they were specifically checking for remapping.


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## wp1234 (Sep 29, 2009)

rayc said:


> DJP said:
> 
> 
> > > I'm given to understand that a re map cannot be detected by the manufaturer anyway so the warranty is pretty safe .
> ...


But I guess it is important to note that a manufacturer cannot refuse a warranty claim on an engine because it is remapped, they would have to prove that any failure was directly caused or affected by the remap.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

wp1234 said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > DJP said:
> ...


I guess it would be an interesting discussion with Fiat if the ECU failed and they detected a remap.
In any event you appear to have convinced yourself that if you are getting the 130BHP engine then you want the remap, which will presumably, be done prior to collection from the dealer? Incedentally do you know what the premium is for ordering the 150BHP engine over the standard 130BHP?


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## ched999uk (Jan 31, 2011)

Don't forget that you also need to find out how much extra the insurance is. Yes I know 'it's undetectable' but can you imagine how the insurance companies who insured the M5 crash vehicles will try and wrangle their way out of paying!!!!

Just remember if you have your insurance invalidated then any claimant could sue you and if you own a house you could loose that!!!!

Sorry to be doom and gloom.

I realise you would like the 150bhp but could you try the 130bhp for say 5,000 miles (takes a while to loosen up) then if you want more power get the supplier to get the power boost fitted at their expense?
You might be surprised by the performance of the 130bhp.


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## wp1234 (Sep 29, 2009)

ched999uk said:


> I realise you would like the 150bhp but could you try the 130bhp for say 5,000 miles (takes a while to loosen up) then if you want more power get the supplier to get the power boost fitted at their expense?
> You might be surprised by the performance of the 130bhp.


Now that is a good idea !

The engine upgrade to 150bhp is £940 +vat +about 5 months delivery delay at the moment. The delay in delivery is my biggest bugbear which is why I'm giving the 130 a thought.


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## ched999uk (Jan 31, 2011)

Maybe you can do a deal and get the dealer to either deduct the price of the power boost or give you vouchers to the value of the power boost. Then after 6 months or when ever you have the voucher to pay for a power boost or other accessories.


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## Mark993 (Jul 1, 2007)

A remap is changing some data in a chip. Chips can be read. Therefore a a remap is easy to detect (if anyone bothers to look!).


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## wp1234 (Sep 29, 2009)

ched999uk said:


> Maybe you can do a deal and get the dealer to either deduct the price of the power boost or give you vouchers to the value of the power boost. Then after 6 months or when ever you have the voucher to pay for a power boost or other accessories.


So I guess having been spoilt with a 3 ltr on my cheyenne 696 I just need to be convinced that the unchipped 130 euro 5 is man enough for the Dakota .... Any thoughts?
Cheers


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## jud (Aug 15, 2009)

hi wp1234.well i would not know if i should cut my throat or get a wow power talk about doom & gloom it usually comes from people who have not had it done JUST listen to the ones who have they will tell you its the best thing since slice bread .our 5ton tag was only putting out 19m.p.g so we had it wow powered 18 month ago with NO problems now we get 25m.p.g on our next trip to Spain for some sun that's a saving of 37 gallon so its well paid for its self now not to mention the extra power is awesome ( watch your clutch ) in my view the new fiat engine is just the old one that been :lol: remapped :lol:. . the reason the Dakota is cheap is its under powered the fuel consumption will be crap it won't it will not take the hills in 6th gear in fact it won.t pull a greasy man out of bed . we have had 2 dakota's 1 merc 2.7 -5 cylinder & fiat 160 both just right for the job at a wight of 4250kg . but like ched999uk said if you go for the 130 run it till you have done a least 6000 miles then have it done then at 150 b.h.p you will get away with it ( sorry if i have offended anyone) .jud


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

wp1234 said:


> ched999uk said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you can do a deal and get the dealer to either deduct the price of the power boost or give you vouchers to the value of the power boost. Then after 6 months or when ever you have the voucher to pay for a power boost or other accessories.
> ...


The 130 will move the MH but not as well as 160 did. As I said previously "I understand the Delaware has a MGW of 4250kg and having had a 130BHP on my 3500kg Chausson and now a 160BHP on my 4250kg Rapido I do wonder about the logic of Autotrail fitting the 130BHP as standard. I have no doubt it will move the MH and provide satisfactory progress but is it asking a bit much?"

Having said that I know of Autotrail owners who have the Maxi chassis fitted with the 130 engine and they manage with it and tow a car behind as well.


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

> .our 5ton tag was only putting out 19m.p.g so we had it wow powered 18 month ago with NO problems now we get 25m.p.g on our next trip to Spain for some sun that's a saving of 37 gallon so its well paid for its self now not to mention the extra power is awesome ( watch your clutch )


We had our 5 ton tag remapped. It was averaging 22.1 pre remap and 22.1 post remap. There was NO improvement on consumption. There was a massive increase in torque, which was what I wanted. It also had a massive increase in power. It also produced more black smoke from the exhaust (unburnt fuel?) Throttle response was better.
Still worth every penny, but DO NOT assume it will improve consumption.

Has anyone checked the accuracy of their trip computer?
When I said above it was 22.1 mpg that was on the trip. Doing a manual calclulation I discovered the trip was out (over estimating) by a variable amount of between 16 and 20% A massive difference of up to 4mpg. Our newer 2011 3.0ltr auto's trip is also out, but by only 4 or 5%


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## ched999uk (Jan 31, 2011)

Trip meters are notorious for being over optimistic.

Only reliable method is brim to brim on same pump. Even then you are relying on the mileometer being accurate!!!

The manufactures have no excuse for not knowing exact fuel consumption on modern diesels. The ecu tells the injectors how long to open for. As they know the pressure, temperature and flow rate they should know how much fuel has been injected, remember they have to comply with emissions laws. They then just need to use the amount of fuel injected and the mileometer and they should have a vary accurate mpg reading.

There is no excuse other than conning customers for over optimistic readings.


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

> Trip meters are notorious for being over optimistic.


16% to 20% variable is very over optimistic! 5% is bad enough.


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

Wasn't there a proposal in the pipeline to make re-mapped engines an MOT failure criteria?

I don't think I'd want to rely on re-mapping to make my 'van driveable if there was still any possibility of that proposal being implemented in the near future.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

I'd follow Ched's advice if you can't wait for the bigger engine - which is the obvious best option, as you say.

Try it for a year, since it will probably take that long to loosen up, and by that time you will know if Ken's (Gaspode) words of caution come to pass.

You will be no worse off, and you may find you have enough power and/or torque already.

I can never see the point in spending good money to cure a problem you haven't yet encountered! :roll: 

All you really have to decide right now, is whether to wait for the bigger engine. :wink: 

Dave


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## jud (Aug 15, 2009)

ched999uk said:


> Trip meters are notorious for being over optimistic.
> 
> Only reliable method is brim to brim on same pump. Even then you are relying on the mileometer being accurate!!!
> 
> ...


hi ched999uk . your right there is only one way to tell m.p.g and that is fill up note your mileage then at your chosen fuel gauge reading fill up and see what goes in and miles done . do that over at least 6 times my best m.p.g is cruise set at 56 m.p.h .jud


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## jud (Aug 15, 2009)

DJP said:


> > .our 5ton tag was only putting out 19m.p.g so we had it wow powered 18 month ago with NO problems now we get 25m.p.g on our next trip to Spain for some sun that's a saving of 37 gallon so its well paid for its self now not to mention the extra power is awesome ( watch your clutch )
> 
> 
> We had our 5 ton tag remapped. It was averaging 22.1 pre remap and 22.1 post remap. There was NO improvement on consumption. There was a massive increase in torque, which was what I wanted. It also had a massive increase in power. It also produced more black smoke from the exhaust (unburnt fuel?) Throttle response was better.
> ...


 hi djp. i find it very strange you got no increse in m.p.g with a remap.was it on the new fiat x250 .jud


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

hi jud
Yes it was and it was on the same van as yours a840D, 2008 3.0 ltr manual with 12000 miles on the clock. Ran it for a year and had a second remap after 3 months to try and reduce the smoke and improve economy. Wow will tell you that they cannot improve economy on EVERY remap they do. However the success rate is almost 100%. I was one of the odd percent who didn't get the increase. I also know of another with a 2.3 engine and his consumption actually worsened. Only by 0.1 MPG over several tanks of fuel but it was worse.
We now have a new van and when it has some miles on the clock we will have that remapped by WOW Power also.

Have you got a spare wheel on yours?


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## jud (Aug 15, 2009)

DJP said:


> hi jud
> Yes it was and it was on the same van as yours a840D, 2008 3.0 ltr manual with 12000 miles on the clock. Ran it for a year and had a second remap after 3 months to try and reduce the smoke and improve economy. Wow will tell you that they cannot improve economy on EVERY remap they do. However the success rate is almost 100%. I was one of the odd percent who didn't get the increase. I also know of another with a 2.3 engine and his consumption actually worsened. Only by 0.1 MPG over several tanks of fuel but it was worse.
> We now have a new van and when it has some miles on the clock we will have that remapped by WOW Power also.
> 
> Have you got a spare wheel on yours?


hi djp . sorry for the late reply you say yours had done 12000 miles well that is the answer. when i had mine done it had only done 7000 miles and he told me the b.h.p would be there straight away and it was but because the engine miles was low not run it yet ( engine still tight ) your m.p.g would take a bit time to settle down and it did . we was a bit disappointed then i noticed after 10.000 miles the m.p.g was slowly going up from 19 m.p.g to 25 m.p.g . so i think you have to run your m/h in first but what do i know. jud


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

Sorry Jud, but you lost me there. Mine had already been well run in and the engine was loose and free revving with loads of toque and power at 2000 miles more than yours. It was just the consumption that was a little disappointing. The other vehicle I referred to had done even more miles than mine.


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## jud (Aug 15, 2009)

DJP said:


> Sorry Jud, but you lost me there. Mine had already been well run in and the engine was loose and free revving with loads of toque and power at 2000 miles more than yours. It was just the consumption that was a little disappointing. The other vehicle I referred to had done even more miles than mine.


hi djp. sorry i will try again . right when i had the remap at 7.000 miles the torque was there straight away but NO improvement in fuel till i had done another 3.000 miles .jud


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