# SORN update, the law has changed!!! for the better



## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

We already have a thread on here about the new laws ref the tax disc and how you don't have to display anymore but are you also aware that changes are in place to how you SORN your vehicle (at last a change for the better)

You now only have to SORN your vehicle once.....no longer each year!
SO if you are NOT on the UK roads......leave the UK...SORN it and pay tax when you are about to reenter the UK online as you no longer have to display a tax disc.....life has just got easier for you fulltimers overseas

'The DVLA said: ‘We’re also getting rid of the need to tell DVLA that your vehicle is off the road every year. Currently, if you declare SORN that only lasts 12 months and then you have to tell us again. The changes mean that when you tell us it’s SORN once, that’s it until you tax it, sell it or scrap it.’

I forgot to add it starts as of next Monday!!

ALSO

You no longer will have to take your insurance into the post office to renew your tax......it will now be like you do online where they check the database to ensure you already have insurance.

Finally changes for the better


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## Glasandra (Feb 5, 2012)

I understood that you could not legally SORN a vehicle if you intended to use it on public roads abroad. From GOV.UK site  SORNing

Has this changed?


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

Glasandra said:


> I understood that you could not legally SORN a vehicle if you intended to use it on public roads abroad. From GOV.UK site  SORNing
> 
> Has this changed?


Which is the grey area...Uk tax is only for the UK??

we like grey areas on here (like A frames) so you choice what you do...

but as of monday you only now have to declare SORN once rather than yearly.


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

Read the SORN regulations.

You can ONLY SORN a vehicle to a UK address.
It cannot be moved from that address without telling the DVLA.

It would be a criminal fraud to use the vehicle on any roads, in any country (UK or abroad) if you have declared to the DVLA that it is SORN'd.

In addition, it's likely;y that any insurance you had would refuse to pay out in the event of an accident whilst driving such a SORN'd vehicle illegally, once they simply checked the databases and discovered your criminal fraud. 
That could costs you tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds/euros personally, to pay the costs/damages to any property, and more expensively still, to pay for any injuries you caused whilst driving the vehicle illegally.

So, potentially no insurance cover for you or members of your family travelling in that illegal vehicle. 
Potentially the loss of your vehicle, plus then your house, your savings, your pension pot, etc as you are sued by the injured - losing every penny that you own in the event that you cause serious injuries to others whilst using it.

The cost of VED, versus the utterly gigantic, entire family bankrupting risk of not having VED and lying on a SORN declaration? It's a no brainer.

Anyone who even considers the criminal fraud of driving a UK registered and SORN'd vehicle on any roads anywhere, is IMHO barking mad.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

so the devil is in the detail and the Government are giving nothing away to make life easier......

Typical......

Dave


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I know the DVLA say you can only SORN a vehicle when it's in the UK, however I have not seen any law saying that. Please post it if you can find it.

As to the relationship between tax and Insurance, you will only be uninsured if your Insurance Policy contains a clause saying that the vehicle must be taxed. Some policies do apparently say that, others (such as mine) don't.

I agree about keeping everything up to date and will always try to do so however, as BCs says and based on much research I believe that there is a grey area here which some may decide to exploit. At their own risk obviously, Alan.


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## BrianJP (Sep 17, 2010)

Problem is that outside of UK many European countries say that any foreign vehicle should be legal in its country of oriigin . IE taxed/ mot/ insured. 
Here in Spain for example where I am it is common now for uk reg vehicles when stopped to be checked for this documentation. If not available vehicles have been impounded.
Is it really worth the risk for a few hundred pounds.


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## duxdeluxe (Sep 2, 2007)

TheNomad said:


> Read the SORN regulations.
> 
> You can ONLY SORN a vehicle to a UK address.
> It cannot be moved from that address without telling the DVLA.
> ...


So apart from that it is ok then? Seriously, thanks for posting the above


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

bigcats30 said:


> ALSO
> 
> You no longer will have to take your insurance into the post office to renew your tax......it will now be like you do online where they check the database to ensure you already have insurance.
> 
> Finally changes for the better


Yes taxed the van today for the Xmas markets trip and the guy didn't even look at the insurance and MOT.

Didn't even need a form filling in either, just scanned the bar code on the V5 and wrote me out a disc.

Ohh and then spoiled the whole experience by asking for £225.00 :roll:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

BrianJP said:


> Problem is that outside of UK many European countries say that any foreign vehicle should be legal in its country of oriigin . IE taxed/ mot/ insured.
> Here in Spain for example where I am it is common now for uk reg vehicles when stopped to be checked for this documentation. If not available vehicles have been impounded.
> Is it really worth the risk for a few hundred pounds.


Brian, I have read similar stories, mostly on here or on ex-pat forums a few times but nowhere have I ever seen a newspaper report or Police report to back it up. Have you any evidence that vehicles have been impounded in Spain for not having had a valid UK road fund disc?

I would find that contention slightly more believable where MOT is concerned but again I have never seen a report of that happening. I speak and read Spanish tolerably well and have looked for authoritative reports.

What you say about vehicles needing to be legal in their country of origin has been challenged on here by lawyers such as Thieawin as being inaccurate in some respects, Alan.


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## Addie (Aug 5, 2008)

bigcats30 said:


> SO if you are NOT on the UK roads......leave the UK...SORN it and pay tax when you are about to reenter the UK online as you no longer have to display a tax disc.....life has just got easier for you fulltimers overseas


*Check with your insurance before doing this!* 

For example - Safeguard specify that vehicle tax is a condition of insurance:

Section 6 - Foreign Travel and European Union
This policy provides the full cover shown in the schedule in any country in the territorial limits as long as *Your motorhome is taxed, has a current MOT* and is registered in the UK.

See: http://www.safeguarduk.co.uk/media/files/motorhome-policy-wording.pdf

Given how easy it is to check if a vehicle is taxed and how hard insurance companies try and get out of paying claims, especially big ones, it would catastrophic to write off your motorhome or have your motorhome stolen abroad and then miss out of a settlement because tax was a condition of your insurance.

It is the insurance aspect for me which has always been the sticking point. If I could get my insurer to provide in writing that UK RFL was not a condition of their insurance for use abroad then perhaps I may be a little more willing to consider this.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

TheNomad said:


> Read the SORN regulations.
> 
> You can ONLY SORN a vehicle to a UK address.
> It cannot be moved from that address without telling the DVLA.
> ...


You don't have to have road tax or an MOT to get insurance......unless the policy specifically says that! Most only say you have to keep the vehicle in a road worthy condition and as a MOT is only valid for the day it is tested an......and is only proof of the condition of the vehicle on that day it is not proof the vehicle is in a road worthy condition for the duration of the year.

Hence why I said it's a grey area.....it's never been challenged in court and until it does....people will still try it (and the same with A frames).

you can be SORNED and have insurance and not have an MOT.....there is nothing illegal about that.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

TheNomad said:


> Read the SORN regulations.
> 
> You can ONLY SORN a vehicle to a UK address.
> It cannot be moved from that address without telling the DVLA.
> ...


Nomad

I would be interested to know why you think a UK address has to be specified. I had a conversation with a DVLA senior manager about why it was not possible to SON a vehicle which is outside the UK. He pointedly responded 'We do not ask where the vehicle is'

Certainly the V890 form does not require the parking address only the address of the Registered Owner.

As for use abroad the declaration says it will not be used on a 'public road', which may be defined in UK law but the words are probably not contained in non-UK legislation. I would think that 'public road' means within the UK.

The legislation under which DVLA operate does not have any extra-territorial effect.

I therefore opine that outside the UK one is neither braking UK law, being without the territorial effect of the SORN legislation and without the jurisdiction of UK law.

I believe the same would apply as to whether one should have paid VED, as it is only payable for UK registered vehicles which have not been SORNed.

As to the requirement that a vehicle must be legal in its country of registration, I cannot be sure without further research, but I believe this refers to its mechanical condition and is not related to taxation.

Regarding insurance, if my understanding is correct, then there is no illegality upon which insurers could rely to deny a claim, unless they had written in specific clauses to cover SORN, Tax etc. So far I have not heard of such clauses. I also think that were such clauses written in they may be ruled to be against public interest, since so many claims could be refused and the burden would fall on the MIB and thus on all other drivers.

Geoff


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Thieawin had this to say on a previous thread on this old chestnut:

Lots of info and misinfo here. 

1st 

You are away for less than a year, MOT and re tax it before you go so you have a full 12 months and no problems apart from insurance renewal, which should not be a problem, have a family member send the new certificate out to you. safest, belt and braces 

or 

MOT it and you can renew tax on line as the computer has access to the MOT and insurance databases, again get someone to send out the new tax disc to be safest 

BUT 

The directive linked above does not say what it is being interpreted as saying, neither does the EU or Vienna Convention on International Circulation require MOT or tax disc whilst abroad. The taxes and duties exempted for temporary import are not road tax but import duties and VAT. 

The EU regulations are about type acceptance (not road tax and MOTs) if it is type legal and so registered for legal use on the road in UK, so it is in rest of EU. It does not refer to MOT or tax discs. Other member states have no interest in, or ability to enforce, UK law on tax discs or MOT. Under their local law you do not have to have an MOT or a UK tax disc. 

You have to be road legal where you are, ie construction and use compliant, lights, brakes, tyres etc. 

The Spanish crackdown, with access to UK databases, was to show how long the vehicles were in Spain and thus had overstayed their temporary import exemption, and were thus illegal in Spain, for not having re registered, got an ITV and paid local municipal taxes, not to enforce UK MOT or road tax. 

What you probably can't do is SORN in UK and use abroad, as you have agreed that the vehicle is off road, a. you would have to SORN after you departed otherwise you could not get to the port, b. Can you insure a SORNd vehicle for on road use, I think you can, for limited purposes, c. on return you can drive a vehicle without tax, or MOT (and on a SORN) to a prebooked MOT and then get it un SORNed and taxed. That presupposes you can be insured without MOT and tax in UK and whilst on a SORN. 

Don't go asking questions, of police DVLA or insurers, chances are the answer will be wrong, and they will play safe, but they will have a record and that may make life difficult if something goes wrong. 

it is highly unlikely that in law any attempt to avoid a policy for no MOT or no tax disc would be successful, as long as the vehicle was roadworthy. However you don't want to have the struggle. 

So whilst I do advise the doom mongers are wrong about the need for MOT or tax abroad or the ability of the foreign country to actually enforce UK tax and MOT laws, I do advise that you get a years MOT before you go and retax on line, and of course you must insure, that latter is a given and enforceable anywhere. 

IOM has no MOT, we tax on line. So maybe re register here! Then as long as you do not outstay temporary import periods in the visited country you can stay as long as you wish. NB there are different periods in different countries.


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

erneboy said:


> I know the DVLA say you can only SORN a vehicle when it's in the UK, however I have not seen any law saying that. Please post it if you can find it.
> 
> As to the relationship between tax and Insurance, you will only be uninsured if your Insurance Policy contains a clause saying that the vehicle must be taxed. Some policies do apparently say that, others (such as mine) don't.
> 
> I agree about keeping everything up to date and will always try to do so however, as BCs says and based on much research I believe that there is a grey area here which some may decide to exploit. At their own risk obviously, Alan.


I think these are the original regulations. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/3025/made

I don't profess to have and read it fully but at one point it does say:
the required particulars" in relation to a vehicle are particulars furnished in writing to the Secretary of State of-
(a)the registration mark of the vehicle;
(b)the make and model of the vehicle; and
(c)the address of the premises at which the vehicle is to be kept; and "vehicle" means a mechanically propelled vehicle which is-
(a)registered in the records kept under the 1994 Act by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency on behalf of the Secretary of State; and
(b)kept in Great Britain,

Does that help at all?


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Hmm. Clear as mud still if you ask me.

If Your not supposed to sorn a vehicle if its out of the country then how come you can actually do it. The DVLA Sorn online facility works abroad. BBCi Player doesnt! So they could block attempts to SORN from abroad if they wanted to. I take it then that the DVLA do not know if a vehicle is resident in the UK or not then. 

Given that the we will no longer need to display a tax disc and that DVLA do not divulge this information outside of the UK I dont see how anyone abroad could tell if you were taxed or not now.

All hyperthetical of course. Only a dimwit would drive around Europe without MOT or Tax!  8O


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## makems (Jul 26, 2010)

barryd said:


> If Your not supposed to sorn a vehicle if its out of the country then how come you can actually do it. The DVLA Sorn online facility works abroad. BBCi Player doesnt! So they could block attempts to SORN from abroad if they wanted to. I take it then that the DVLA do not know if a vehicle is resident in the UK or not then.


You might want to SORN your car when you are out of the country but car is on your drive in the UK.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

erneboy said:


> Thieawin had this to say on a previous thread on this old chestnut:
> 
> Lots of info and misinfo here.
> 
> ...


Alan

Thanks for 'Thieawin's' opinion.

I think it almost coincides with mine above.

He points out that it would not be legal to SORN before driving to the ferry. He does not deal with the possibility of SORNing while abroad. But since the Regulations apply to a vehicle which

" means a mechanically propelled vehicle which is-
(a)

registered in the records kept under the 1994 Act by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency on behalf of the Secretary of State; and
(b)

kept in Great Britain"

It appears that a vehicle not in Great Britain is not a 'vehicle' for the purposes of these Regulations, which in total seem to be more concerned with when one can reclaim tax.

The Regulations as originally drafted do state that the address should be provided. Either these Regulations have been amended on this point(no time to trace) or DVLA are not following them, either way DVLA do not ask the question.

Of course one has to be aware of regulations about permanent export from UK and requirements to register in host countries - not a problem for full-timers on the move.

Geoff


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

makems said:


> barryd said:
> 
> 
> > If Your not supposed to sorn a vehicle if its out of the country then how come you can actually do it. The DVLA Sorn online facility works abroad. BBCi Player doesnt! So they could block attempts to SORN from abroad if they wanted to. I take it then that the DVLA do not know if a vehicle is resident in the UK or not then.
> ...


Ah yes. But you would also think that in this day and age they would have a record of what vehicles are in or out of the country.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

barryd said:


> makems said:
> 
> 
> > barryd said:
> ...


You would think so...remember a lot of our border control is actually run by G4S.....

yes those guys.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

bigcats30 said:


> barryd said:
> 
> 
> > makems said:
> ...


AH! Thats how I got away with it last summer then!


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Barry, they have a special category for you.

It comes under Section 4 paragraph 9, sub section iii - Vehicles constantly breaking down with an idiot in charge of it.


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

Can anyone seriously think it's worth all this mither and the is it/isn't it legal argument with a foreign police officer who, in most cases can't speak good enough English to argue the finer points of law, and more importantly carries a weapon!

Just pay the money and drive away worry free. Simples!


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Annsman said:


> Can anyone seriously think it's worth all this mither and the is it/isn't it legal argument with a foreign police officer who, in most cases can't speak good enough English to argue the finer points of law, and more importantly carries a weapon!
> 
> Just pay the money and drive away worry free. Simples!


For many of us outside the UK it is not about the money for the MOT/VED but the miles, fuel and time we have to devote to going back to the UK to do it all.

So if I am legal in Europe without conforming to UK law, until such time as I choose to re-enter the UK, I would prefer to legally not bother with the UK rules.

As for a policeman 'carrying a weapon' - I do not think that in countries I visit the police would resort to threatening the use of that for a traffic offence. If they did I think I would have grounds for a complaint.

Geoff


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## Gary1944 (Feb 21, 2009)

bigcats30 said:


> barryd said:
> 
> 
> > makems said:
> ...


And my friends daughter!! They are not all thick, and no doubt if they were alerted to a load of us motorhomers running around semi-legally they might think it worth their time to do some more serious checks. I for one will stick to Taxing the van while away. After all I only have to do it in one country. Whether I decided to do an extended tour of the British Isles, or around the Med it should make little difference how I service/maintain/licence my van.

And more importantly, if anyone was to get into trouble with the authorities it would have to be me :roll: .

Gary.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

None of us I am sure are looking to flout the law but when you think about it we are being ripped off a bit. I spend months (six last year and three this year) abroad. Why should I pay road tax for the UK when my vehicle is not there?

Ok its not a huge amount of money but really its not fair. 

We all keep our vehicles insured and mechanicially in tip top condition. I see no reason why we shouldnt be able to sorn while abroad. As long as we have a current MOT why should dVLA or our unsurance companies be bothered if we are taxed or not while abroad?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

And who would be able to enforce UK MOT or road tax laws on foreign soil and under what legislation?

It's worth mentioning that no one is suggesting anyone should do anything here. We are simply discussing the issues. We are all grown ups and can make our own decisions. We are better able to do that if we have tried to understand all the considerations bearing on the matter, Alan.


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

You might find that the laws are connected to this:

http://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDe...dsg_no=XI~B~19&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg3&lang=en

but it's too late in the evening for me to dig into that one


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

https://www.gov.uk/taking-vehicles-out-of-uk/for-12-months-or-more

https://www.gov.uk/taking-vehicles-out-of-uk/for-less-than-12-months

they basically say if out for less than 12 months you continue to pay tax etc

more than 12 months you should export the vehicle.


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## billym (Dec 17, 2005)

We used to have the Safeguard policy that clearly states no insurance if not taxed. We never fancied testing that clause.

What we may have had difficulty with is the fact that if in one EU country for more than six months you must import the vehicle to make it legal. How would the authorities know ? I was , in my opinion, very reliably informed, that in the event of a serious issue, the burden of proof that the vehicle had not been in any one country, would be on the vehicle owner.


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## Camdoon (Sep 21, 2012)

From the .gov.uk web site "Your vehicle must be in and remain in Great Britain to make a SORN."
I work on the principle that the less I attract the attention of the authorities the better.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

billym said:


> We used to have the Safeguard policy that clearly states no insurance if not taxed. We never fancied testing that clause.


You are very wise not to test the clause since it's perfectly clear. It would not really stand much testing would it? Many policies do not contain such a clause.

Camdoon, no-one is in any doubt that the DVLA say that. What is being questioned is whether that is just their interpretation or whether the law dealing with SORN says that too and how UK law might be enforceable outside the UK, Alan.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

cronkle said:


> You might find that the laws are connected to this:
> 
> http://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDe...dsg_no=XI~B~19&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg3&lang=en
> 
> but it's too late in the evening for me to dig into that one


Thanks Cronkle.

What it doesn't do, because the UN can't do it is give UK law force in other countries, Alan.


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## Gary1944 (Feb 21, 2009)

barryd said:


> None of us I am sure are looking to flout the law but when you think about it we are being ripped off a bit. I spend months (six last year and three this year) abroad. Why should I pay road tax for the UK when my vehicle is not there?
> 
> Ok its not a huge amount of money but really its not fair.
> 
> We all keep our vehicles insured and mechanicially in tip top condition. I see no reason why we shouldnt be able to sorn while abroad. As long as we have a current MOT why should dVLA or our unsurance companies be bothered if we are taxed or not while abroad?


Hi Barry,

You are right that we pay for the UK road system, and a bit more, but we do not pay for the road system while abroad (other than tolls which can be avoided) so I think that evens things out. We have to pay somewhere and until we have a pan European road taxation system (god forbid) then the fairest way seems to be that everyone pays their own system at home. The fact that our government makes us pay more than most is for us to argue about, not avoid.

Gary.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I and many others are perfectly happy to pay UK road tax regardless of whether I am in the UK or not. That's not an issue for many of us, even if it might seem unfair to some to have to pay it when they aren't using UK roads. It's not worth arguing about for most of us, we are perfectly willing to pay it. If only we could.

The difficulty comes if you are away for over a year. Your MOT runs out and you cannot then tax the vehicle without obtaining a UK MOT. 

It's easy enough to ensure that the vehicle is roadworthy but you must return to the UK for MOT otherwise you cannot buy UK road tax.

That is what the exploration of this topic is about. It is not about avoiding anything. Except perhaps avoiding the need to travel to the UK once a year for MOT.

Alan.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

erneboy said:


> I and many others are perfectly happy to pay UK road tax regardless of whether I am in the UK or not. That's not an issue for many of us, even if it might seem unfair to some to have to pay it when they aren't using UK roads. It's not worth arguing about for most of us, we are perfectly willing to pay it. If only we could.
> 
> The difficulty comes if you are away for over a year. Your MOT runs out and you cannot then tax the vehicle without obtaining a UK MOT.
> 
> ...


Precisely Alan. If I can legally not have to drive a 2,000 mile round trip for an MOT I shall be very happy - so should environmentalists :wink: 

Geoff


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I understand it's possible to do a voluntary ITV (MOT equivalent) here in Spain, or so I have been told and read: http://spain.angloinfo.com/transport/vehicle-ownership/vehicle-roadworthiness/

It would not have legal force but it might be acceptable in Spain and possibly elsewhere even if only as proof of roadworthiness on the day the test was taken, which is all the MOT is except that it has legal force in the UK.

What it certainly would demonstrate is that I care to keep my vehicle roadworthy and have taken steps to do so.

Before the usual suspects start telling me I should import the vehicle to Spain or some other country let me make it clear that I move around Europe throughout the year without staying in any country long enough to need to do that. I do not have an address outside the UK and I would have to import into whatever country I happened to be in each year when MOT became due. Insurance would become next to impossible doing that and without an address so would importing for the same reason, Alan.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

"Before the usual suspects start telling me I should import the vehicle to Spain or some other country let me make it clear that I move around Europe throughout the year without staying in any country long enough to need to do that. I do not have an address outside the UK and I would have to import into whatever country I happened to be in each year when MOT became due. Insurance would become next to impossible doing that and without an address so would importing for the same reason, Alan."

My situation also :wink: 

Additionally Poland, where I could provide an address, will not re-register RHD vehicles - please don't post that under EU law they should - Poland knows that, UK and EU know that :roll: :x 

Geoff


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Any comment to offer on voluntary ITV Geoff?


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

erneboy said:


> Any comment to offer on voluntary ITV Geoff?


Alan

As you posted earlier any voluntary equivalent of MOT in another country would have no legal standing but it might convince the local police in that country not to pursue one, but maybe not in other countries, and it would be evidence for insurers of roadworthiness.

As for Poland, I am told they would not issue one because they would have to fail it because it is RHD :roll:

Geoff


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Presumably it is beyond our highest hopes that it would ever be possible for a foreign garage to carry out a British MOT?

I see no reason why technically it couldnt happen but just how much demand there would be for it, probably not enough. How many Geoffs and Alans are there?


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

barryd said:


> Presumably it is beyond our highest hopes that it would ever be possible for a foreign garage to carry out a British MOT?
> 
> I see no reason why technically it couldnt happen but just how much demand there would be for it, probably not enough. How many Geoffs and Alans are there?


Foreign garages can't carry out UK MOT's, both from a legal point of view and also from a technical point of view. A lot of the things checked, the equipment used, and the pass/fail standards are different in other countries MOT-equivalent vehicle tests.

In addition, there'd be no benefit to the garage in France/Spain/Germany etc in having to employ English speaking, English trained, English certified MOT Testers, using tens of thousands of quids worth of English-test-spec testing equipment, just to do a few English MOT's each week. For eveey one of those they did, that's one of their own countries tests that they are not doing. They'd go bust pretty sharpish.

If you've got a UK registered vehicle, just get a UK MOT on it. In the UK.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Barry AFAIK it was discussed that the MoT / ControleTechnique should be valid through the EEA, but the British Government refused this - the UK is unusual in that the testing station also carries out the repairs if needed - in France they are totally separate so no feeling of less truthfulness as there is no financial benefit to failing the vehicle.....

The UK refused to accept CT's done elsewhere - they cited different standards for items checked (which I would have thought to be resolvable) but also the 2 year validity c/w one year in the UK - it was felt that the economic hit on testing establishments would be too great......

I am sure others will have more detail, but this should be one area where common standards exist throughout Europe IMO. and they should be applied identically. It used to be possible to obtain an MoT certificate at some places in Spain, they were probably not legally valid but they were done apparently - an establishment with a sister establishment in the UK which nominally issued them I believe.....

Dave


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Proposal for harmonisation of roadworthiness testing.

Cut and paste this into Google for the Pdf: 

COM(2012) 380 - European Commission - Europa

Alan.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Its definately one thing that Europe should get together on really. An agreed standard on what deems a vehicle fit to be on European roads where you can take it anywhere to be tested.

If it were possible to carry out a UK test abroad then I would expect the garage to charge a premium for this. Perhaps couple of hundred Euros. Its still going to work out cheaper and less hassle for people like Geoff in Poland. 

Never going to happen though.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I think it may happen Barry.

The UK can refuse to join in though, I hope they won't but even if they did it might still be possible to have the test done elsewhere and be recognised in other countries, just not recognised in the UK. That won't matter to me as I can get a test as soon as I enter the UK anyway and if my foreign test was valid in other countries I would be happy with that. If I couldn't tax in the UK that would present some difficulty but I could live with that, Alan.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

barryd said:


> Presumably it is beyond our highest hopes that it would ever be possible for a foreign garage to carry out a British MOT?
> 
> I see no reason why technically it couldnt happen but just how much demand there would be for it, probably not enough. How many Geoffs and Alans are there?


I am quite sure Barry that the French Controle Technique is almost the same as the UK MOT.
There are a list of checks and standards inside both offices and I would expect them to be very similar.

I have had both MOT and CT and from my viewpoint little if anything is different.

Ray.


----------



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

raynipper said:


> barryd said:
> 
> 
> > Presumably it is beyond our highest hopes that it would ever be possible for a foreign garage to carry out a British MOT?
> ...


Ray

As I understand it the German test is stricter than the UK anf French tests, so they might want to opt out.

Geoff


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

nicholsong said:


> raynipper said:
> 
> 
> > barryd said:
> ...


The German TUV test is far more strict and last 2 years....a far netter idea than ours


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

Spanish ITV (like an MOT) testing stations are private companies. They'll take your money and put any car through the inspection, whether Spanish or UK plated.

But a Spanish ITV certificate for a UK registered vehicle means utterly nothing. 
It ain't worth the paper it's written on. 
Because a UK registered vehicle needs to be legal in it's "home" country to be used anywhere....in that home country or in any other European country.
A Spanish ITV is NOT a requirement for a UK registered vehicle. Never was; never will be. 
But a current UK MOT certificate IS a legal requirement for a UK registered vehicle. And those can only be obtained (unless you are daft enough to commit serious criminal fraud) by getting your vehicle MOT tested by an MOT test station in the UK

Spanish Trafico are much wiser now about what's required on UK vehicles that they pull over to check. 
Waving a Spanish ITV certificate on a UK registered vehicle but not being able to show a UK MOT certificate for it will make the officer very unhappy. 
You do not want to make a Spanish Trafico officer very unhappy.
Really.


Also worth mentioning that in any event the Spanish ITV test is much laxer than a UK MOT - it inspects/tests far fewer items, and in most cases, to lower technical/performance specs. 
And it's only required (once a car is 4 years old) every 2 years until the car is 10 years old, then annually thereafter.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

What we (reluctantly) pay in the UK is Vehicle Excise Duty (hence reference to VED) it is NOT any form of taxation (use Mr Google to read about the difference.

Any excise duty that is payable in the UK is only payable in the UK likewise any reference to "Public Road" in UK legislation can ONLY refer to public roads within the UK. So IF your vehicle is not within the UK it cannot be liable to pay VED as it's not on a UK public road.

It DOES however have to have a valid "tax disc" to travel to or from any UK port UNLESS when entering the country you are on route to a PRE ARRANGED MOT test. There is no stipulation that the MOT test centre must be the closest one to you, it can be at the other end of the country as long as it's pre arranged (personal experience of trying to nail a loathsome little git who, having been nicked for stealing a rally car, promptly bought it back off the insurance company because they had paid out to the original owner and didn't care whee they got their money back from. In this case the car was in a police compound for about 9 months so he turned up to pick it up. I tried to book him for no MOT as it had expired, he had proof of pre arranged MOT about 250 miles away, which, after much research meant he could drive it away without committing an offence. madness or what??)

As far as insurance is concerned IF you have a condition within your policy in respect of the fact the vehicle must be "taxed" to be insured is a little misleading. The insurance company CANNOT decline to pay out for damage to a third party in the event of a claim. What they CAN do is to refuse to pay out for damage to your vehicle!

As has Ben said before when you consider the value of your MH etc the cost of a years VED is bugger all !!! So pay up.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

TheNomad said:


> ..............
> Because a UK registered vehicle needs to be legal in it's "home" country to be used anywhere....in that home country or in any other European country............


If you could post any authoritative evidence supporting that it would be very helpful Nomad, Alan.


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## emmbeedee (Oct 31, 2008)

Mrplodd said:


> As far as insurance is concerned IF you have a condition within your policy in respect of the fact the vehicle must be "taxed" to be insured is a little misleading. The insurance company CANNOT decline to pay out for damage to a third party in the event of a claim. What they CAN do is to refuse to pay out for damage to your vehicle!


I don't know if the law has changed in the meantime, but in 1964 I was the innocent party in a three vehicle collision. The guilty party was prosecuted (no L plates, no qualified driver with him, etc., etc.), fined & disqualified. His insurance company refused to pay for the damage to my vehicle & for the hire car I used in the meantime. This despite the fact they had assigned a repair garage for my car & gave them an oral go-ahead for the repairs. They also refused to tell me why they wouldn't pay. 
After writing to the Chief Constable of Birmingham City Police, a Police Inspector was assigned to find out what the exact legal position was. I then spent several hours with said Inspector in Steelhouse Lane police station studying law books. What we discovered was illuminating, to both of us. The letter of the law did not actually require you to have INSURANCE, it required you to have an INSURANCE CERTIFICATE. (It did seem though, that if anyone had been injured, the Insurance Company would have had to pay for their injuries). Since this lad had an insurance certificate, he could not be prosecuted for no insurance. 
The outcome was, the lad was taken back to court were he was prosecuted for "Obtaining insurance by false pretences" & fined another £50. Didn't help me, though. In the meantime I had taken him to the County Court, got a judgement, which he mostly failed to pay & then went down the bailiff route, another dead end.
The moral of this story is, don't do what I did & rely on Third Party Fire & Theft, go full Comprehensive every time.
As I say, the exact wording of the law may have changed in the intervening 50 years, but that's how it was back then.


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## Chausson (Oct 17, 2006)

Hi
My son worked and lived in germany, while there his vehicle MOT expired. He was coming home in the car and asked me to find out about the law regarding MOT. I contacted Police HQ at Bridgend and spoke to a Sargeant of Traffic he informed me because it's illegal to use a vehicle on the road without a valid mot and to go to the nearest MOT testing centre, the same info came from the dvla. 
This is not an argument against previous post just what I was told.

Ron

PS
The local police told me to get the car transported from dover to home. STUPID wooden tops. Even I could have come up with halfords in dover for MOT.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Mrplodd said:


> What we (reluctantly) pay in the UK is Vehicle Excise Duty (hence reference to VED) it is NOT any form of taxation (use Mr Google to read about the difference.
> 
> Any excise duty that is payable in the UK is only payable in the UK likewise any reference to "Public Road" in UK legislation can ONLY refer to public roads within the UK. So IF your vehicle is not within the UK it cannot be liable to pay VED as it's not on a UK public road.
> 
> ...


But there is also the conclusion I came to at the end of my previous exchange on the matter.

The "rules" say that SORN can only be declared if the vehicle is in the country and so if it is not in the country the SORN declaration is invalid.

So if the SORN is invalid it cannot have been declared and therefore VED is due to be paid in respect of the vehicle.

That is what they will get you for - they will declare the SORN invalid and therefore impose the fixed penalty for not having VED.


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

TheNomad said:


> Because a UK registered vehicle needs to be legal in it's "home" country to be used anywhere....in that home country or in any other European country.


Please will you quote me what authority, law, statute or anything else states that a vehicle has to have UK road tax and / or an MOT to be driven outside of the UK. Please do not mention insurance policies because they don't all say that.



TheNomad said:


> But a current UK MOT certificate IS a legal requirement for a UK registered vehicle.


Well that's obviously nonsense because first off cars less than 3 years old don't require one. Secondly cars not being driven on the road don't require one - I have a sorned car sitting happily (and legally) in my garage that has no road tax, no insurance and no MOT despite being over 3 years' old. So it's not a requirement for a car being driven on my private property to have an MOT. Please therefore tell me what, who, where is the requirement for a UK registered car being driven on roads outside of the UK to have an MOT. Again please do not mention insurance policies because they don't all require this.


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## cheshiregordon (Sep 24, 2011)

its all very well to talk about not taxing the bus while abroad but how many of you actual SORN the vehicle and then go abroad? and how do you manage the run down to the port/tunnel and back and stay legal??
Be truthful!


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

cheshiregordon said:


> its all very well to talk about not taxing the bus while abroad but how many of you actual SORN the vehicle and then go abroad? and how do you manage the run down to the port/tunnel and back and stay legal??
> Be truthful!


You SORN it once outside not whilst in the UK

Which is why we are discussing the legalities of this as Uk tax is for the UK only.


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## cheshiregordon (Sep 24, 2011)

bigcats30 said:


> cheshiregordon said:
> 
> 
> > its all very well to talk about not taxing the bus while abroad but how many of you actual SORN the vehicle and then go abroad? and how do you manage the run down to the port/tunnel and back and stay legal??
> ...


thank you for clarifying that. So how do you tax it before your return?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

You have an MOT appointment pre-booked and drive straight to it, then tax it. Alan.


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

bigcats30 said:


> cheshiregordon said:
> 
> 
> > its all very well to talk about not taxing the bus while abroad but how many of you actual SORN the vehicle and then go abroad? and how do you manage the run down to the port/tunnel and back and stay legal??
> ...


Sorry. This is getting silly.

You can't legally SORN it when it's outside of the country....at least not without committing criminal fraud, or criminal deception; or both.

You have to give THE UK ADDRESS where it is laid up. Look at the declaration on the SORN form that you submit.

The only way to SORN a UK registered vehicle if/when it is outside of the UK is by lying on that SORN declaration.....with all the really really big consequences that entails if caught/if involved in any sort of accident.

Why oh why anyone tries to pretend that if a UK vehicle is illegal to use on UK roads it's somehow magically transformed into legal to use anywhere else escapes me.
But in the end, it isn't me that you have to convince. 
It's the Police and criminal lawyers and judges and insurance fraud investigators in whatever country you are caught in.
Plus the DVLA, the CPS and the Magistrates/Crown court in the UK.

But I guess some people genuinely think there's a chance of still getting away with that fraud with every single one of those law enforcement and prosecution agencies? 
Every time you're stopped?
Anywhere? 
Every time you have any accident and your insurers do the most basic of records checks via MIB etc....?


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

bigcats30 said:


> You SORN it once outside not whilst in the UK


But as the vehicle is NOT in the UK that declaration is invalid and thus VED is still due.

A fixed penalty can then be issued.

I admit you are unlikely t5he suffer any penalty from foreign authorities (unless you meet one of the clued up Spanish ones) BUT DVLA can issue the fixed penalty for having no VED and not having declared SORN (Lawfully).

Why doesn't someone ask DVLA for a definitive answer? :wink:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

How do you know it's fraud or deception. The only information which has so far been found on it is an opinion on the DVLA web site. Where is the law?

The SORN form does not ask for a UK address where it's stored. 

Where is the law saying that UK road tax or MoT is required in other European countries.

You are confusing this thread by posting what you think as opposed to what you know. That is not like you, you usually try to be certain of what you post.

Please supply facts supported by authoritative documentation, links to actual laws, or links to reputable reports of prosecutions for the crimes you are imagining, Alan.


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

TheNomad said:


> You can't legally SORN it when it's outside of the country....at least not without committing criminal fraud, or criminal deception; or both.


Who, what or where is this stated?



TheNomad said:


> You have to give THE UK ADDRESS where it is laid up. Look at the declaration on the SORN form that you submit.


I am looking at Form V890 which is the SORN form here
and nowhere does it state or require what you are claiming.

What the form also says is "What Your Declaration Means
• That the vehicle will not be used or parked on a public road from the date given above". Since when has a road outside of the UK been deemed to constitute a "public road"? The answer is it never has.


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

peribo: Making a Statutory Off Road Notification:

"Your vehicle must be in and remain in Great Britain to make a SORN."

https://www.gov.uk/register-sorn-statutory-off-road-notification

And on the SORN form itself, in bold type:

"This form cannot be used if the vehicle is temporarily out of the country"

https://www.gov.uk/register-sorn-statutory-off-road-notification


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

The DVLA do not require "laws" as they have "rules".

One rule is that if a vehicle is not legally Sorned it must pay VED.

If the VED is not then paid there is a fixed penalty, (which as I understand it does not involve any form of trial or court appearance), of a set amount + the amount of VED unpaid. So far as I understand it the penalty does not require an MOT unlike the proper payment of VED.

I do not know if there is any mechanism to challenge imposition of that penalty - a bit like challenging the HMRC penalty for late/non submission of tax return.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

TheNomad said:


> peribo: Making a Statutory Off Road Notification:
> 
> "Your vehicle must be in and remain in Great Britain to make a SORN."
> 
> ...


We are well aware that the form says that.

The question is where is the law to back it up. I have never seen it posted anywhere and no amount of searching has turned it up for me. It's my contention that the DVLA are using that interpretation because it's how they interpret the SORN regulations, Alan.

Please, please produce some law to give it authority.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Stanner said:


> The DVLA do not require "laws" as they have "rules".
> 
> One rule is that if a vehicle is not legally Sorned it must pay VED.
> 
> ...


Then presumably there is a document somewhere detailing all these rules and citing the law which gives them effect. Please post that, Alan.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I can still remember a time before '1984' when Big Brother took over the DVLC and other government 'Agencies' to coral us all into ever decreasing freedoms.

Is all this progress? And for who?

Ray.


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

erneboy said:


> TheNomad said:
> 
> 
> > peribo: Making a Statutory Off Road Notification:
> ...


We're just going round in circles.

Please can you provide proof that such clear statements from DVLA/Government, no doubt pored over in minute detail by their in-house lawyers before publication, are NOT backed up by law/regulation?

At the end of the day, If you really think these statements have no legal effect, and you'll get away with it if when caught/involved in an accident, then carry on lying on your SORN declaration and driving without UK VED and UK MOT.

Just one example for you: I know personally of a woman who was stopped in a non-taxed, non UK MOT'd car here in Spain recently. Her name is Elaine Hibbert:
"Please beware - we had our UK car impounded. It had an ITV and was insured but it had run out of English road tax a few months before. The Guardia said it was not legal in either country so fined us 500 Euros. We could have recovered the car if we transferred to Spanish plates but it wasn´t worth the high cost."


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

But why is it against the rules to Sorn while abroad? Why should it matter to DVla?

How would the DVla know your vehicle was abroad when you sorned?

The only way you would get a fixed penalty is if you didn't tax it but also failed to Sorn it. Ie just did nothing.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Nomad, are you seeming to miss the point deliberately? 

I haven't lied on a SORN, nor have I suggested that anyone should.

Some of us are simply examining the whole question of how UK laws/ regulations can have legal effect in other countries and whether UK law even pretends to do that.

Is that clear enough for you?

Those of us who don't see how UK law can have effect outside the UK are unable to prove it because you can't prove a negative. You on the other hand maintain that it does, all we are asking is that you post the law/regulation which says so. 

Everything which the DVLA say with authority must have the backing of law or regulations. Where are they? Alan.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

TheNomad said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> > TheNomad said:
> ...


Nomad

DVLA, and VOSA, do not have any internal lawyers - they rely on those at DfT and when I have contacted them they have referred me back to DVLA.

Therefore I believe any Law and Rules are left to interpretation by Civil Servants and their track records in courts are not very good.

One solution to not breaching DVLA's 'assertion' that the form cannot be used if the vehicle is temporarily exported is to fill the form in on-line while waiting for the ferry in Dover Docks :wink: 

Geoff


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

TheNomad said:


> At the end of the day, If you really think these statements have no legal effect, and you'll get away with it if when caught/involved in an accident, then carry on lying on your SORN declaration and driving without UK VED and UK MOT.


Like Alan I have found no law or statute that gives effect to the statements made by DVLA regarding where a SORN can be applied for and the fact that the vehicle can't be taken out of the UK. Nor have I ever heard or read about anyone being prosecuted for this.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

erneboy said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> > The DVLA do not require "laws" as they have "rules".
> ...


In that case ask them to prove their position. It's not MY position I'm simply quoting their position, if you are so sure they have no power to take that position challenge them.

Inform them the vehicle is out of the country and that you intend to SORN it and see what happens - if they are bluffing, as you appear to think, nothing will happen will it?


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

TheNomad said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> > TheNomad said:
> ...


I fully understand where you come from but you must understand that the law is not always right.

just because your friend paid the fine doesn't mean the Spanish were correct in charging her and she certainly wasn't correct in paying them (so after paying 500 Euros they were happy for her to now drive the car?? more like the Spanish get some more money for their every increasing debt).

We have seen numerous stories of people just paying fines only to find out actually the fines and the supposedly law they broke were in fact unlawful themslves...
the problem is no one has challenged DVLA....uk road tax is for UK roads as it clearly use to state on their website...now it doesn't....why?? probably because people kept on querying the matter and DVLA decided to change it is my guess....and they make more money out of it.

So please stop with this rubbish that is states on their website as some sort of law....

DVLA cannot make laws.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

Stanner said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> > Stanner said:
> ...


I'm sure something will happen but it's whether whatever they do is legal.....hence why it needs to be challenged in court and not just with DVLA.


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

bc - read my post again. She's didn't "get it back again once she'd paid the fine". The Guardia impounded it. She lost the car, permanently.

You guys can continue to argue as long as you like that black is white in the thin air of this forum. 

I continue to advise that none of your semantic arguments will carry one iota of weight in the real world with the Policeman with the big gun in any mainland European country when you aren't displaying a current UK tax disc, and can't produce a valid current UK MOT certificate for your UK registered vehicle.

You'll pay a very hefty fine and lose your vehicle; then spend ten years and a few hundred thousand euros in fighting that Police Officers decision through the French/Spanish/German/Italian courts to try to get it back again if you wish.

You are adamant that you can try the same with your insurer if you ask them to pay out after an accident, having SORN'd the vehicle and then admit driving it.

We must agree to differ.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Yes but very soon foreign Plod is not going to be able to fine you for not displaying a tax disc as we are doing away with them and they can't check if its taxed as we opted out of sharing that info.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

barryd said:


> Yes but very soon foreign Plod is not going to be able to fine you for not displaying a tax disc as we are doing away with them and they can't check if its taxed as we opted out of sharing that info.


But what we will see is people having their vehicles impounded (from the stories we've been told) by some off the beaten track Spanish copper because DVLA failed to inform the rest of Europe we don't have to display them....


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Are the UK Police familiar with what VED or Vehicle Tax system is standard in any other EU country? The French do not have a VED system so the UK Police would not be looking for one but what about Dutch / German / Spanish let alone the newer countries of the EU?

I wonder how many foreign vehicles have been impounded or their drivers fined for not complying with their tax regimes? Is the validity of their insurance tied to their VED if applicable? As for MOT's another anomaly. The same make and model of car UK registered need a test every year but the same one from France Bi annually. Why is the French registered one determined to be less of a risk?

As with many things related to vehicles the rules and laws are illogical. Driving licence groups, speed limits for car dived vans and motorhomes for example.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

As far as VED v. SORN is concerned, I wonder what would happen if you posted the correct amount of VED to DVLA without an MOT?

DVLA cannot take action for no MOT because it is within the jurisdiction of VOSA and VOSA are clear that they only require a valid MOT if driving on UK public roads, so being out of the country would be a valid explanation to VOSA for the absence of a MOT.

After the need to display a VED is repealed I wonder how many foreign policemen have the ability to check with the DVLA computer? I know for sure that the Polish police do not have the ability to do so.

I also wonder how many of the vehicles, even in the more officious Spa, would have been stopped had it not been for not having up-to-date VED? They might in future feel it is a waste of time to stop 100 vehicles to catch 1 without MOT.

Maybe in the initial months after the discontinuation of the need to display we should all carry a copy of the DVLA announcement until all traffic cops in Europe have caught up with the UK legislation. I bet for some months UK traffic Wardens will be reporting cars for no VED :roll:  

Geoff


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Stanner said:


> Inform them the vehicle is out of the country and that you intend to SORN it and see what happens - if they are bluffing, as you appear to think, nothing will happen will it?


Hello Stanner. Thanks for the advice. As you know I always value your council.

But on this occasion I will give it a miss if you don't mind.

This is for two reasons. Firstly I don't intend SORNing my vehicle while it's out of the UK and secondly, if I did intend doing so I can't help feeling that it just might be foolish and pointless to risk triggering a load of legal hassle regardless of what the eventual outcome might be.

Think of it this way. On this web site we discuss the rights and wrongs of killings, like the recent conviction of the Marine for murder. The fact that we discuss it and take this or that view doesn't actually mean that we intend committing a murder ourselves. It merely means that we are exploring the topic. This discussion is no different.

You see at no time have I said that the DVLA advice/opinion is wrong. What I have said, repeatedly and very, very clearly is that despite all the assumptions and opinions posted on this topic no-one has ever posted a link to any law which reinforcesor provides authority for what the DVLA say on their web site, nor has anyone ever posted any authoritative account of a prosecution of anyone for driving outside the UK without MoT, road tax or for driving while SORNed.

However that may be about to change as it seems that Nomad knows such a person first hand. I hope therefore that he will be able to find a newspaper report of the prosecution or perhaps some paperwork explaining it. Such evidence would be absolutely invaluable because this topic exercises many people, not just those on MHF. The web is full of similar discussions and none that I have seen have been any nearer to providing an answer that we are here on this thread.

So please Nomad, don't agree to differ. Go the extra mile and enlighten us. It would be very much appreciated, Alan.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Ron (from a few pages ago)

In respect of driving to a pre-arranged test Please check out the below link under "If your MOT has expired" clear and unabiguous.

https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot

You most certainly CAN (and always have been able) to drive a vehicle on a road if it does not have a current MOT but ONLY to a PRE-ARRANGED test. (As I pointed out in my previous post)

Whoever you spoke to at Bridgend clearly was a rubbish Traffic Sgt if he DIDNT know such a simple fact !!!


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Seems like an awful lot of arguments over something that really should be a no-brainer?

Why do you want to run your vehicle abroad with no RFL? To save money?

To save something like a couple of hundred pounds or less, people are prepared to ignore guidance on what they should be doing and follow their own (entirely logical to them) reasoning.

I wouldn't bother, the guidance is clear and well known, so why not follow it?

The rights and wrongs of how DVLA operate are not really relevant, they operate as an executive agency of the DfT who control what is and isn't required of UK vehicles and drivers in the UK. You can always challenge these rules and guidance, but only if you have very deep pockets and a very good solicitor or counsel or both.

Follow the rules and guidance, saves a lot of hassle and ensures that your holiday is a happy one.

Peter


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

I agree with Stanner in that VED would still be payable as the regs only apply to:

"2. (1)"vehicle" means a mechanically propelled vehicle which is-
(b)kept in Great Britain,".

I have chopped the regs to highlight that particular point. To check my interpretation go to: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/3025/made

It leaves no doubt in my mind that SORNing can only be carried out legally on vehicles kept in this country.

How enforceable this would be or, to put it another way, could you get away with it is another discussion altogether.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Peter

I would not be exercising my mind if I lived in Calais, but, as I posted before, my 2,000mile round trip is a bit different and I cannot re-register anywhere - not in Poland(RHD) nor anywhere else(not resident). 

So feel stuffed, unless I can legally find a way around it.

Geoff


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

listerdiesel said:


> Why do you want to run your vehicle abroad with no RFL? To save money?
> 
> Peter


If you have gleaned that impression Peter you mustn't have read the whole thread, Alan.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

erneboy said:


> If you have gleaned that impression Peter you mustn't have read the whole thread, Alan.


I thought I had, but if I missed something, apologies.

Peter


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

cronkle said:


> I agree with Stanner in that VED would still be payable as the regs only apply to:
> 
> "2. (1)"vehicle" means a mechanically propelled vehicle which is-
> (b)kept in Great Britain,".
> ...


Thanks Cronkle. I couldn't find that. Very useful, Alan.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

listerdiesel said:


> Seems like an awful lot of arguments over something that really should be a no-brainer?
> 
> Why do you want to run your vehicle abroad with no RFL? To save money?
> 
> ...


As Alan has said several times I dont think anyone is considering flouting the law or driving around Europe with no MOT or Tax while its a requirement.

I think we are simply discussing what is actually law and what is just rules that may or may not be legally binding.

But yes. Why shouldnt we save money? Ok so its only £200 a year but I was away six months last summer. Geoff and Alan are pretty much away all year. Why should we pay while out of the country? I sorned my car last year while away. Thats £100 more to spend on food and booze!

After my monumental cock up last year where I ended up inthe south of France with no MOT and as a consequence no Tax I for one will make sure I am totally legal where ever I am in the future but I can see how its a huge headache for many and quite frankly. Unfair.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Cronkie

Not that it makes much difference, but the S.I. to which you link has been revoked and replaced by virtue of S.I (2002) 2742.

The relevant part of this for notification is Schedule 4, including:- 



"Manner in which declaration is to be made and particulars furnished

2. (1) For the purposes of this Schedule the required declaration may be made and the required particulars furnished in such way as the Secretary of State may accept including—

(a)in writing on a form specified by the Secretary of State;

(b)orally by telephone to a person authorised by the Secretary of State; or

(c)by electronic means in a form specified by the Secretary of State.

(2) A person furnishing the required particulars need not provide particulars of the address at which the vehicle is kept unless required to do so—

(a)in a case falling within sub-paragraph (1)(a) or (c), by the form on which those particulars are furnished; or

(b)in a case falling within sub-paragraph (1)(b) , by the person to whom they are furnished."

No subsequent legislation appears to supersede this, thus it is not required to furnish the address, unless asked. The current form does not ask.

Geoff


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

Thanks Geoff - have patience with me!

I'm thinking that ""relevant GB vehicle" means a vehicle which is registered in the GB records and kept in Great Britain" with the emphasis on the kept in Great Britain is why you say it makes little difference which reg we talk about.

Link to the full Regulation: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2742/made


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Cronkle and Geoff, you two are better than I am at ferreting stuff out. Thanks for the info, Alan.


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

nicholsong said:


> Cronkie
> 
> Not that it makes much difference, but the S.I. to which you link has been revoked and replaced by virtue of S.I (2002) 2742.
> 
> ...


DVLA never getting it wrong

Here's an interesting read on how to avoid the 80 fine for DVLA not receiving your SORN

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/03/dvla_court/?page=1

It's actually been proven many times in court about avoiding the fine.

This bit is interesting and shows how Government bodies get away with what they do

'as has been demonstrated in a series of recent high-profile cases, the fact that something is unlawful is no reason for government to stop doing it - and that is pretty much the story in this case'

In other words...many people actually pay illegally issued fines and do nothing about it...

And some people wonder why some of us question what we are told!!


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

cronkle said:


> Thanks Geoff - have patience with me!
> 
> I'm thinking that ""relevant GB vehicle" means a vehicle which is registered in the GB records and kept in Great Britain" with the emphasis on the kept in Great Britain is why you say it makes little difference which reg we talk about.
> 
> Link to the full Regulation: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2742/made


Cronkle

Correct, but I doubt whether the word 'kept' has ever been tested.

Does it mean permanently? Does it mean habitually kept?

Since the vehicle is controlled by a 'Registered Keeper' (V5C section 5) at a UK address it could be argued that it is 'kept' in GB even if temporarily abroad.

I doubt whether DVLA, their(DfT) lawyers or the CPS would find it in the public interest to pursue this to court for a determination of the definition of 'kept', which if obtained at a Court of First Instance, and not taken further to the Court of Appeal or Divisional Court, would not be binding upon any subsequent court.

There seems to be little to worry about from the UK Agencies concerning a vehicle outside the UK.

Which leaves us with the practical problem of the police in other countries. The worries, if valid, seem to be concerned with Spanish Guardia, and maybe the French.

I know it might be difficult to argue at the roadside about the need for 'the vehicle to be legal in the UK' when it is not in the UK and not on a 'public road' as defined in UK legislation, but even then does one not have the right to appear in front of a Magistrate to argue the point.

I personally do not believe the police in Northern European countries would impound the vehicle, even if they have the right.

If I were going to Spain en route I would be much nearer to UK so would probably 'pop-over' for an MOT.

I wonder whether some of the people in Spain who have had problems are (semi)-resident and have been swanning around for months with an out-of-date VED disc - or they were known to the police in Spain and/or UK and were 'targets'?

Geoff


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

bigcats30 said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> > Cronkie
> ...


Thank you Bigcats.
It cost me another €8 to send copies of documents previously sent but lost via recorded delivery. 
I had already sent the required forms informing them I had exported a Jeep and then I get most threatening letters and fines saying I hadn't.

Ray.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

b-c

Prompted by your quote of the GBP 80 fine I started to do the sums.

Do you have to pay the VED and GBP 80 fine?

Even so that is GBP 245 which is a lot cheaper than a 2.000 mile round trip from here and the cannot fine me for no MOT, and I doubt VOSA would, so probably save GBP 75 = net GBP175!

Maybe I should contact DVLA to set up a Direct Debit annually for the two amounts :wink: :lol: Hopefully it would get lost in their system :roll: :lol: 

Geoff


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

raynipper said:


> bigcats30 said:
> 
> 
> > nicholsong said:
> ...


Have a search on the net for the court cases and you will see many people who have sent replys to DVLA after they were hit with fines who won because of these court ruling.

I'll also add that if the court systems sees it fit to send out Notice of intended prosecutions via 1st class post only then DVLA can expect the people to send in their forms.....

Power to the people


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Thanks again Bigcats.
I gave in and sent the copies because the threatening letters and fines were being sent to my (ex) daughter in laws address. Where I initially register the Jeep before exporting it. Need to keep nasty letters away from her.

An again over ten years ago the DVLA insisted I was exporting our old Citroen and should declare it as such because we kept cashing in the VED when visiting our then holiday home in Normandy..... 
They had to appologise and agree I wasn't in the end.

Ray.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

This thread is now nearly as interesting as the ones on A frames and Hydra-trails :wink:


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Mrplodd said:


> This thread is now nearly as interesting as the ones on A frames and Hydra-trails :wink:


Which was about to die before you bumpt it Plody!!!!!!! I would have said Numbnuts but your not allowed to say that on this forum. I get confused. 8O


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