# Notification of EU driving offences cross border. Stopped



## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

Drivers are going to have to become familiar with a new directive. But not just yet. Sorry if I drift into legalese. There has been stuff posted on here about the new notification directive, BUT the EU Court of Justice has struck it down.

The directive applies to these offences speeding, non-use of a seat-belt, failing to stop at a red traffic light, drink-driving, driving under the influence of drugs, failing to wear a crash helmet, use of a forbidden lane and illegally using a mobile telephone, and allows automatic access to the UK vehicle registration data.

This is potentially of importance to the UK drivers who venture abroad.

The road traffic offences directive was annulled,on the ground that its legal basis was wrong.

However, the directive has been maintained in force (unlike the data retention directive) for a year to allow it to be re-introduced on the correct legal basis.

The history is this. The European Commission introduced the directive in the first place on the legal basis of Article 91 of the TFEU (road safety). The Council, eventually supported by a reluctant parliament - which wanted to bring the matter to an end after three years of negotiation - passed it on the basis of Article 87 TFEU (police co-operation). The Commission then took the matter to court.

You may wonder what difference this makes, to the UK.

Well, the UK has an opt-out from Article 87 (police co-operation), and so the directive has not so far applied to the UK. You will not be surprised to learn that the UK intervened in the case - along with a few others, it must be said - to argue that Article 87 was the correct legal basis after all. But now that Article 87 has been shown to be wrong, and the directive is going to be re-introduced on the correct basis (presumably Article 91 – road safety, from which the UK does not have an opt-out), anyone committing cross-border traffic offences is eventually going to have to watch out.

So what does the annulled directive do? It sets up a procedure for the exchange of information between member states in relation to eight road traffic offences (speeding, non-use of a seat-belt, failing to stop at a red traffic light, drink-driving, driving under the influence of drugs, failing to wear a crash helmet, use of a forbidden lane and illegally using a mobile telephone). The member states can access each other’s national data on vehicle registration in order to determine the person liable for the offence.

However, it is not as far-reaching as the Commission originally wanted. In particular, the current directive has no provisions on what should be done if the offender simply decides to ignore orders for payment. ie Fines cannot be enforced cross border nor penalty points, disqualifications or endorsements. But a new proposal could change that. When the member states altered the legal basis during the adoption process, they threw out a section dealing with legal proceedings for infractions and possible sanctions.

As a result, the current directive does not guarantee sanctions, but only mutual access to vehicle registration data.

It is unlikely that the Commission will introduce controversial new measures now to address this gap in the new directive, since it would probably not then pass in the 12 months allowed. But we can expect such measures in the future, now that the legal basis has been settled. And those new measures will apply equally to UK drivers elsewhere in the EU, and to EU drivers in the UK.

Apparently 5% of drivers on EU roads are from another member state, other than their home state but they account for 15% of traffic offences.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

I dont have any sort of problem with that !!!

Remember it will work TWO ways, and visitors to the UK will be in the same position.


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

Fully agree. Just wanted to update everyone.


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

Oh the dilemma, what do I do, treat a red light as merely a suggestion to slow down as the rest of drivers on Sicily do, or risk the ire of those behind by actually stopping? :lol: 

Dick


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## fatbuddha (Aug 7, 2006)

best get all those speeding camera offences in now while I can.... :wink:


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

great in principle but lets see how it works when you are stranded in the middle of Europe without legal repesentation because you haven't a clue as to why you have had your vehicle seized because no one will speak in English or will produce the paper work in English.

Some things are never thought out properly.


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## fatbuddha (Aug 7, 2006)

> great in principle but lets see how it works when you are stranded in the middle of Europe without legal repesentation because you haven't a clue as to why you have had your vehicle seized because no one will speak in English or will produce the paper work in English.


errrm - as if the UK has a great track record of being able to commune with, or produce written documentation, in the native language of any European that happens to get stopped in the UK.

stop looking at this with one eye - these things cut both ways y'know


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

and its got nothing to do with stopping and seizing vehicles. Its reporting back to your home country and sharing information

So you get done for Drink Drive in Spain on a GB licence, they will tell DVLA, who wont be able to do anything about it and you will still be able to drive in UK, and everywhere except Spain.

However they will be able to access your UK driving record and see what other driving offences you have in the relevant category and that may influence sentence.

In truth its more about getting addresses to issues court summonses BUT then not being able to enforce any fine or penalty if you ignore them


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

How many eastern european drivers who are banned back home are flying around our roads?
Even worse how many of them are banned in the UK and at home but produce their home country licence when stopped?which has not had their banned printed on it?
The answer to all the above is "quite a lot"
It will be a good thing when we share.

James


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## Camdoon (Sep 21, 2012)

Asked to cede more powers to Europe? How jolly, triggering an EU referendum at the insistence of the Liberals.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> JP said:
> 
> 
> > How many eastern european drivers who are banned back home are flying around our roads?
> ...


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## goldi (Feb 4, 2009)

Afternoon folks,


so what would happen if you got a speeding ticket or other in say Spain did not pay the fine but still went back to Spain at another time. ?



norm


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

"as if the UK has a great track record of being able to commune with, or produce written documentation, in the native language of any European that happens to get stopped in the UK. "

Perhaps not, but the UK does have a marvellous record of producing leaflets in a myriad of different languages to help immigrants claim benefits.


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## fatbuddha (Aug 7, 2006)

> "as if the UK has a great track record of being able to commune with, or produce written documentation, in the native language of any European that happens to get stopped in the UK. "
> 
> Perhaps not, but the UK does have a marvellous record of producing leaflets in a myriad of different languages to help immigrants claim benefits.


sorry - your point is?? I didn't realise this thread was about immigration but about European law on traffic offences


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

thieawin

I am interested in the 8 categories of offences covered.

Whilst some of those are serious - 'drink driving', some of them do not even cause accidents - 'not wearing a crash helmet' (only injury to the driver)

Are more serious offences, e.g. 'causing death by dangerous driving' , covered elsewhere?


Geoff


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Sorry FatB - I didn't mean to give offence.

The point I was making is that UK Plc seems to pick and choose how it treats various classes of "foreigners" and also how it interacts with various other countries.

If the benefits side of UK Plc can waste taxpayers money producing leaflets in so many languages, the various other departments (ie to do with motoring) can surely do a bit better in common €uropean ones.


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

nicholsong said:


> thieawin
> 
> I am interested in the 8 categories of offences covered.
> 
> ...


They'd be extraditable and arrest able under European law and I think information exchange exists already for serious offences.

I don't see how this is ceding anything to anyone, it's about information exchange.

And yes, when you go back to the country where the offence was committed you risk arrest, confiscation of vehicle or imprisonment depending what the enforcement or default is for non payment of the fine

It's working wheel in most of Europe. They are and do exchange. UK had an opt out so didn't do it automatically, but on request, and now, in 12 months it will be automatic


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## goldi (Feb 4, 2009)

Morning folks,


I read a couple of months ago motorhomers have been prosecuted for not having a GB sticker on the front as well as the back, also for carrying thigs on the back seat such as shopping which was not secured.



norm


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

its not a requirement to have country identification plates at the front, just the rear. That is under the Vienna Convention on International Circulation. Inside the EU it can be replaced with the country letters on number plates, back and front. Note that the symbols such as St Georges Cross, St Andrews Cross, Dragon, Manx 3 legs, etc are not a substitute for the country of origin letters at the rear

It may well be an offence here in some circumstances to have stuff loose. It certainly is in other countries, dogs for instance. In Spain they are supposed to be in a car harness or there should be a dog guard to keep them out of the driving area. In UK (and IOM) we are not so prescriptive, but if loose items, or pets, got under the pedals and as a result an accident occurred it would lead to a due care or even dangerous driving prosecution.

The directive is full of anomalies. Drink Drive limits vary between (in blood) 0, 50ug and 80ug per 100ml.

So I get charged and convicted in a zero tolerance country with 10 or in a 50 level with 60 and they report home. What could they do. I haven't broken the 80 level for conviction and disqualification in UK.

it is why EU wide penalty points and disqualifications are never likely to happen. Its a mine field.

We have reciprocal recognition of bans between IOM and UK. In IOM everyone convicted and banned has to retake their test. So UK license holder here on holiday gets banned for 12 months and has to retake his test before he drives again in IOM, but not before he drives in UK. End of 12 months gets license back and drives in England and in two years returns to IOM and gets stopped and done for driving whilst disqualified. Unintended consequence.

I'm police station duty solicitor out of office hours (yes weekends and overnight) all TT week (30 May to 6 June). I know from experience I shall get at least one of those


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## rayrecrok (Nov 21, 2008)

Hey up..

Anybody driven in Albania? every road rule that has been invented is totally ignored, even which side of the road to drive on.. If your side is better than the other side everybody uses it which ever direction the traffic is going.:roll: .. 

And Italy more folk don't wear crash helmets than do and every single driver drives with a phone permanently stuck to their ear, even texting while buzzing around on scooters... 

ray.


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

ray, that happens in remote or country areas here in IOM, I've experienced it in Wales and Scotland and Spain and Bulgaria and Macedonia. But generally not on freeways, dual carriageways and motorways...


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

freeways, dual carriageways and motorways...

I didn't realise you had any of those on the IOM :lol:


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

Where it would help is being able to check the validity of a foreign licence at the roadside.
For example a foreign driver gets stopped in the UK and produces his licence which seems to be in order but at the moment there is no easy way to check this.
It transpires the driver was banned back at home but failed to surrender his licence claiming it was lost and came to work in the UK.
He would obviously be driving without a licence but not while being banned.
If convictions were shared then the officer at the roadside would be able to seize his vehicle and deal with the offences instead of letting a potentially dangerous and uninsured driver continue on his way.
I don't believe points should be shared unless as already mentioned offences are aligned.
At the moment in the UK if a foreign licence holder is convicted of say excess alcohol then a UK licence is automatically issued to them in order to record the ban, a very clumsy process.
James


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

thieawin

I was going to raise the point about reporting drink driving at levels which is an offence in one country but not in another, but I thought I was been a 'picky' lawyer, so I am pleased to be in good company  

These things do happen and I wonder whether they were considered by the legislators or not even thought about for consideration.

From my own personal perspective it is interesting that governments will accept reporting offences even when the laws are incompatible but will not accept other countries' 'MOT' on the basis that the tests are 'not compatible. I do understand that the Courts in UK can ignore offences which do not coincide with UK law - then why write into the legislation that offences based on incompatible laws should be reported?. The two approaches seem to be, shall we say, 'incompatible'':roll:')

It will be interesting to find out how long it takes for every EU country to establish systems to report to every other EU country(Factorial 28 - 28!) and how many contracts to IT consultants have to be issued before the system is 100% operational. Did the EU do the calculations of the cost ? and if so can we find the figures and I wonder by how much those estimates will be wrong in reality? Anyone want to make a book?

Geoff


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## rayrecrok (Nov 21, 2008)

Hey up.

We are not naughty boys when we go abroad, I think we drive more responsibly than we do in our own country, after all who can be arsed with a load of crap when you are on your jolly's, and any police man will probably not speak your language and you not theirs and all the hassle with it all..

I know I am more careful when abroad than my usual perfect self. :wink: 

ray.


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

JP said:


> Where it would help is being able to check the validity of a foreign licence at the roadside.
> For example a foreign driver gets stopped in the UK and produces his licence which seems to be in order but at the moment there is no easy way to check this.
> It transpires the driver was banned back at home but failed to surrender his licence claiming it was lost and came to work in the UK.
> He would obviously be driving without a licence but not while being banned.
> ...


Not quite right. He's issued with a driver number and driving record is created, but a licence isn't physically issued, and his conviction is then marked on his record


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

nicholsong said:


> thieawin
> 
> I was going to raise the point about reporting drink driving at levels which is an offence in one country but not in another, but I thought I was been a 'picky' lawyer, so I am pleased to be in good company
> 
> ...


I think you are over thinking and complicating. Its an access and notification system. Its running, and has been for sometime. through most of Europe,

So I have a licence from Country A and am driving and commit an offence in Country B. Country B will be able to access the Driver records of Country A, either to identify who I am to send on the fine, or check my record. That's just an access code or password, no big IT issues. I am then convicted and sentenced, As Country B enters that into its data base it informs Country A, presumably there will be a dedicated clerk and e-mail address for such notifications - although what they do with the info is moot.

The UK and Ireland have been negotiating and trying to sort out cross border recognition and reciprocity of endorsements, penalty points and disqualifications for 20+ years and even with similar systems based on a common source, common law principles and a, mainly, common language, they haven't managed it yet.

Its one of the reasons I maintain an IOM and an Irish licence, just in case


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

Yes of course you are quite right I just didn't go into the actual details, it is a notional license and any points are transferred to a real one if they ever apply for a UK license.
James


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Jp

On the topic of points, as you said, it needs alignment of offences ( 2075?) before sharing should be considered but it would require some countries changing from adding points(e.g. UK) or from deducting points from a credit(France?). I am not even sure all countries use 12 points as the base.

I get the impression that the whole thing is a 'good idea' in principle but might fail in the execution - nothing could possibly go wrong, go wrong , go wrong......Because the Eurocrats have spoken':roll:'

Geoff


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

nicholsong said:


> Jp
> 
> On the topic of points, as you said, it needs alignment of offences ( 2075?) before sharing should be considered but it would require some countries changing from adding points(e.g. UK) or from deducting points from a credit(France?). I am not even sure all countries use 12 points as the base.
> 
> ...


Not a worry for most of us as I doubt we will be driving by the time they align the systems although sharing license details should be easy to do and make the job for the police officer on the street a lot easier.

I am sure it is the same abroad but I know many officers in the UK shy away from foreign drivers and before translators on the telephone were available (at great cost) I was often called to try and communicate with french drivers but usually this was just for directions.

James


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Thieawin

First you say:

"I think you are over thinking and complicating"

Then you say:

"The UK and Ireland have been negotiating and trying to sort out cross border recognition and reciprocity of endorsements, penalty points and disqualifications for 20+ years and even with similar systems based on a common source, common law principles and a, mainly, common language, they haven't managed it yet."

I understand that this is just a reporting system but if there is no agreement based on 'recognition and reciprocity' there is no meaning to what is reported, for any offence including drink driving.

For example are roadside fines, based on adjudication by a policeman, to be reported; are sentences imposed by a magistrate in another country to be reported if only a Crown Court in the UK could impose such sentence? I f they are reported should they be taken into consideration by a UK Court? If not what is the point in reporting them?

It seems to me that, because of the incompatibility of all the 28 legal systems operating in the EU, this could end up just being a field day for defence lawyers. OR completely ignored.

For example " Your Honour, are you aware that the offence of which my client was convicted in [State G] is not an criminal offence in the UK?"

"Mr. [Barrister] I am not required to take cognisance of Foreign Law"

"Thank you your Honour"

Geoff


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

nicholsong said:


> Thieawin
> 
> First you say:
> 
> ...


And that Geoff shows how you are over thinking and over complicating. Its nothing more than an info exchange. It has no significance other than that and to get to the next stage is, as you observe, and so do I, highly unlikely.

And yes it will mean on the spots will be shared but all over Europe on the spots are appealable, you have a choice of going to court (although in some you have to pay up first and then challenge whereas in common law countries you choose to pay or to challenge

And the greater significance is in the state where the "foreign" motorist commits his offence, it allows checks on licence validity, it allows name and address of vehicle owner to be accessed to send out a summons or equivalent, but again, after that there is no method of enforcement.

And it can help me as a barrister defending a foreign driver. I'm about to say he has an unblemished driving record of 20 years, or he has no previous or is of good character, but in fact he has lots of drive convictions. That is a fact not foreign law and something the court can, and in my practical experience does, have cognisance of in sentencing, and not just for motoring. So say its a drink drive and there is a second one within last 5 year, although the statutory 5 year ban does not apply the court will often impose a greater sentence than the current offence warrants on its own to reflect that this is not a first drink drive conviction


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

I know personally a guy who is a truck driver for an Irish firm, but he is English. He was convicted of being over the drink drive limit in the UK and had his UK licence revoked for 12 months. He added an "O" to precede his surname, applied for an Irish passport and driving licence in that name, passed his driving test in Dublin first time and was driving trucks again for the same firm within 3 months! I've personally seen the passport and licence so know it has happened!


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

"but he is English"

"his UK licence"

Inconsistency here - I assume you mean he is British.

As in "British Subject, Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies."


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

Pippin, I think he is probably partially correct and partially wrong, as maybe, are you. We don't have UK driving licences or vehicle registration. We have GB licences and registration, covering England, Wales and Scotland and we have Northern Irish licences and registration. Passports and nationality mean nothing in this context. 

In stead of DVLA in GB NI has DAVNI and DVLNI.

The man is English, one of the constituent parts of the UK. It may not be a nationality or citizenship, but its a valid description. 

He had a GB licence, not a UK one.

He lost his GB licence 

He applied for a Republic of Ireland passport and provisional licence, allegedly, and passed his Irish test and, presumably later, HGV test.

Suspect it may be apocryphal as you don't just qualify for or get issued with an Irish passport unless you have Irish antecedents (and you would need to produce a birth certificate etc) or naturalise and it would have to be a long ban in UK (as bans apply to GB and NI) to justify taking test and then HGV test and who in Irish Republic is going to countersign the applications and photos and say they have known him for two years


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Thank you Isle of Man man.

Yes I am aware that NI has its own "DVLA".

It's just that "English" tends to be used as a blanket term for UK - as a Manxman you suffer the same as the Scots, the Welsh and the Channel Islanders. 

Oh - and the Geordies!!!


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

At least iom and CI aren't part of the UK pippin ...

Blue touch paper lit and hasty retreat being beaten


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