# Energy costs



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I looked but didn't find a thread, if there is one link to it and I'll use that.


Prior to Putin going off on one we struggled with the heating in this old bungalow, we just get gov pension, we'd get up each morning and the smart meter would already have 50-60p on it, now it's in the 80s, in winter we'd spend £3-4 now it's a struggle to keep it below £5-6, we turn the heating on when we get up and off about 30 minutes before going to bed.


I was wondering what others IN THE UK are paying, not interested in what the costs are in other countries as that has no bearing here, the figures above are total energy gas and electricity, we are gas combi boiler two years old and fire in the lounge also two years old, I have the tap temp at 5oc and the heating at 55c.


We have done all we can on reducing costs and adding insulation already, we have over a foot in the loft, but there is no cavity wall as the house is over 100 years old and about 2 foot thick so take a lot of heating.

You can get 25mm polystyrene/plaster boards but this would ruin the original coving and picture rails, and the cost plus new skirting and architraive make that a no go anyway.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

We have been watching the headlines with absolute horror, I really feel for you and everyone else faced with such a burden.

Have you ensured minimal electricity consumption by eg fitting LED bulbs everywhere ? And of course, put as much insulation in as many places as possible?

I realise that I am probably preaching to the converted but sadly, of course, the extra costs of power reduces the amount that MIGHT be spent on insulation or LED’s, energy poverty is bound to increase dramatically over the next few months.

Sadly, at present, there does not look to be any way of things improving in the foreseeable future and if Putin does launch “support missions for Russians in the Ukraine” it will probably get much worse, very quickly.

Sorry if this is not what you wanted in this thread, but I hope I am raising important considerations for all of us, wherever we happen to be.

PS Does anyone know how I can fit 6” extra insulation to the MH without reducing interior living space ? 🤔


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> I have the tap temp at 5oc and the heating at 55c.


I take it that heating temp is a mistake Kev? I have mine set at 19° but generally bump it up to 20 or 21 when I'm watching TV. I do wear more clothes than most in the house! And if I need to I'll wrap a fleecy blanket round my knees. I also have my gas boiler on economy - I see no point in keeping a litre of water at hot 24hrs a day. I seldom wash anything at the sink and if I do, I act as if I'm in the MH n boil a kettle. I don't turn on the hot water tap in the bathroom to wash my hands as, for the time that takes, the hot water hasn't reached the taps so no point in paying to fill the pipes with hot water. My boiler has its own set water temperature (no idea) and I can't alter that; it's hotter than I would like - can't see the point in heating water to then have to cool it down with more, cold, water.

I think my attitude to using energy at home has been influenced by my (admittedly frugal) attitude to using energy in the MH, developed over a few years virtually full-timing and a lot off-grid.

I don't have a smart meter. ATM I'm paying £53/mth combined but I'm pretty sure that will be more than the actual cost of the energy (they doubled my £19 for gas recently to £38 - down from the £45 they originally asked for). I don't know how that compares to your costs Kev.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I think we are all in the same boat Kev. Fuel costs are rocketing all across Europe. We try to economise in general as our income does not increase and the cost of living does.
Just an observation, lighting costs are minimal compared to heating anything. Yes you can save some pennies by using energy efficient lamps but heating costs is where the most savings can be made.

Ray.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I know you don´t want to know how much my gas and electricity bills are, but I would much rather keep the house warm than spend money on a cup of coffee and cake while out shopping. I refuse to skimp on gas, electricity or water, I will spend the last years of my life in comfort.
People here are also talking about the price of electricity has risen a lot, for instance my monthly payments this year have gone up by 9€ over 11 months making it 99€ per year.
My heating & hot water is run on gas so that's not included.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

jiwawa said:


> I take it that heating temp is a mistake Kev? I have mine set at 19° but generally bump it up to 20 or 21 when I'm watching TV. I do wear more clothes than most in the house! And if I need to I'll wrap a fleecy blanket round my knees. I also have my gas boiler on economy - I see no point in keeping a litre of water at hot 24hrs a day. I seldom wash anything at the sink and if I do, I act as if I'm in the MH n boil a kettle. I don't turn on the hot water tap in the bathroom to wash my hands as, for the time that takes, the hot water hasn't reached the taps so no point in paying to fill the pipes with hot water. My boiler has its own set water temperature (no idea) and I can't alter that; it's hotter than I would like - can't see the point in heating water to then have to cool it down with more, cold, water.
> 
> I think my attitude to using energy at home has been influenced by my (admittedly frugal) attitude to using energy in the MH, developed over a few years virtually full-timing and a lot off-grid.
> 
> I don't have a smart meter. ATM I'm paying £53/mth combined but I'm pretty sure that will be more than the actual cost of the energy (they doubled my £19 for gas recently to £38 - down from the £45 they originally asked for). I don't know how that compares to your costs Kev.


That is the boiler temp Jean sorry, stat is set to around 18-19 most of the time and it struggles to get that high unless we get some solar gain.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

JanHank said:


> I know you don´t want to know how much my gas and electricity bills are, but I would much rather keep the house warm than spend money on a cup of coffee and cake while out shopping. I refuse to skimp on gas, electricity or water, I will spend the last years of my life in comfort.
> People here are also talking about the price of electricity has risen a lot, for instance my monthly payments this year have gone up by 9€ over 11 months making it 99€ per year.
> My heating & hot water is run on gas so that's not included.


If it were that cheap here we'd have it on all the time, this why it isn't relevant to the UK.


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## Drew (May 30, 2005)

What is the make and model number of your boiler Kev?

Same question to you Jean.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Ive not really bothered to try and work it out until today but I think we just got 675 litres of oil delivered which I think was last filled 9 weeks ago so if I have that right we must be using 10 litres a day over winter so at about 60p a litre which is about what it is now as its shot up I reckon thats about £6.40 a day or £200 a month. Leccy is about £67 a month now. This is about double what it once was not that long ago I suppose. I dont think thats too bad compared to some horror stories I have heard and this is an old house circa 1750 (the old part at least). The newer part we tend to sit in at the back has new double glazing and large patio new double glazed doors. What a difference that has made. Im thinking of doing the rest of the house as the sides and the front which are east facing are old single glazed. I bet it would make a huge difference. Michelle just never wants the upheaval though. I would just naff off in the van and get someone to sort it but she wont do that I bet.

It is what it is and its going to get a load worse before (and if) it gets better. 2022 is going to be horrific for many.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> If it were that cheap here we'd have it on all the time, this why it isn't relevant to the UK.


Have you misread my post Kev. It went up by 9€ a month, my full

electricity bill will be *1,265.00€* a year,

The gas for heating *1,155.00*€

together making *2,420.00€*

That is 1/4 of my pension.


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## KeithChesterfield (Mar 12, 2010)

* in winter we'd spend £3-4 now it's a struggle to keep it below £5-6,*

Is that an hour/day/week/month ?

:nerd:


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yeah. And when are we getting all this 'cheap' nuclear electricity promised? And all the great savings by having a Smart Meter.? Cost must be going down by now with 'renewable' power.?

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Drew said:


> What is the make and model number of your boiler Kev?
> 
> Same question to you Jean.


It is a Worcester Greenstar 30i ErP condensing combi.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

raynipper said:


> Yeah. And when are we getting all this 'cheap' nuclear electricity promised? And all the great savings by having a Smart Meter.? Cost must be going down by now with 'renewable' power.?
> 
> Ray.


Never probably Ray, NIMBY protests, Greta what'sherface etc.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

JanHank said:


> Have you misread my post Kev. It went up by 9€ a month, my full
> 
> electricity bill will be *1,265.00€* a year,
> 
> ...


So, you are one of the very many and rapidly increasing number classified as in "energy poverty". That figure is set at the maximum energy price being <10% of your annual income.

Based on your figure of 25% you have probably been included for some time but now is the time to see what, if any, support you can get either towards the costs of it, or increasing energy insulation etc..

One way of cutting energy usage and expense, if you have the capital to do it, is to take out oil or gas boiler and replace with an air source heat pump. That puts up electricity use by around 5% but removes totally the cost of gas or oil for heating, including hot water. Our daughter has had it done and reckons she is about £1500 a year better off, but she was able to get a grant for most of the boiler costs from the Government here in France. Otherwise, they are around £30 - 40k and that would take 25 years for payback….. it is of course, green power.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> Never probably Ray, NIMBY protests, *Greta* what'sherface etc.


Most of my questions Kev were being asked before she was born.

Ray.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Penquin said:


> So, you are one of the very many and rapidly increasing number classified as in "energy poverty". That figure is set at the maximum energy price being <10% of your annual income.
> 
> Based on your figure of 25% you have probably been included for some time but now is the time to see what, if any, support you can get either towards the costs of it, or increasing energy insulation etc..
> 
> One way of cutting energy usage and expense, if you have the capital to do it, is to take out oil or gas boiler and replace with an air source heat pump. That puts up electricity use by around 5% but removes totally the cost of gas or oil for heating, including hot water. Our daughter has had it done and reckons she is about £1500 a year better off, but she was able to get a grant for most of the boiler costs from the Government here in France. Otherwise, they are around £30 - 40k and that would take 25 years for payback….. it is of course, green power.


From where are you talking about support Dave? I don't and can't have any support from the UK government. The house is 15 years old and extremely well insulated. It's quite a large area to heat as it's open plan. I'm not complaining about my bills, as I said I would rather spend money on my comforts at home than anywhere else.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Can we get any UK help Dave? Can't even get the winter fuel allowance. 

Ray.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Drew said:


> What is the make and model number of your boiler Kev?
> 
> Same question to you Jean.


Will check when I return home Drew 


raynipper said:


> Yeah. And when are we getting all this 'cheap' nuclear electricity promised?
> 
> Ray.


I don't think there's any such thing as cheap nuclear. Factor in the clean-up costs (which I think 'we' generally end up paying rather than those who've made the profit from the relatively short-lived project) and it's certainly not cheap.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

French Government scheme same as lots of other help both during pandemic to keep businesses ticking over eg 50€ towards bike servicing per bike, irrespective of number being done, energy costs being held down by French Government and other support for low paid needing insulation in houses, and of course, under French Law tenants cannot be evicted even for non payment of rent throughout winter months and that was extended during pandemic. Not good for owners but Government gave a guarantee during first lockdown that no business would’ve forced to close due to finance. I have not heard if that actually has happened but the thought was there.

But this thread was about U.K. position and I am very concerned at the way very many people will cope over the next few months in the U.K.. Sadly politics and political actions do not seem to be supporting the very people that put them there.

Hopefully those same people will remember this at voting time, if they ever bother to vote again. Of course, we cannot vote in France now (used to be able to before Brexit), so are completely unrepresented. U.K. MP’s also do not respond to us as we do not live in their Constituency and that is what Parliamentary rules dictate. Hence absolutely no representation, anywhere.

Due to private company involvement ALL power is probably 50% more expensive than it needs to be, sustainable seems great, but the cost of installation is immense as well as NIMBY problems to be coped with, somehow.

Like Brits, we were promised advantages of Smart meters Linksys as it’s called here, but it has simply raised price due to installation AND DOES NOT WORK. EDF cannot interrogate it, because we have no internet connection……l


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

It hasn’t got anything to do with Brexit Dave, you can still vote in UK elections up to 15 years from leaving to live abroad, that’s how it as always been.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Agreed BUT only in the last Constituent that you were registered in and that MP does not have to respond to you even if you contact them with a concern. You are now living outside their Constituency.

The 15 year rule is currently being abolished, it was written into an Act currently going through Parliament, backed by HMGov. - this has always been the kiss of death for such things before , but……

The No communication is not of the MP's choosing, but is compelled by Law and if they do respond they can be criticised for poaching someone else's points…..

Such things were written long before emails were invented……

I know that it is applied as I emailed Nicki Aitken, Conservative MP for Westminster where all overseas Party Members are registered and got told that in reply without addressing the issue that I had raised. Yet another reason behind me leaving and closing the local Branch that I was Chairman of for five years.

The not allowed to vote in French elections has only been applied since the end of the Transition period of Brexit, prior to that we could vote in Local Elections here and EU MP elections, but no longer, so we are unrepresented in France, the EU and the U.K.

Sorry, this is totally "off thread" and irrelevant.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Penquin said:


> So, you are one of the very many and rapidly increasing number classified as in "energy poverty". That figure is set at the maximum energy price being <10% of your annual income.
> 
> Based on your figure of 25% you have probably been included for some time but now is the time to see what, if any, support you can get either towards the costs of it, or increasing energy insulation etc..
> 
> One way of cutting energy usage and expense, if you have the capital to do it, is to take out oil or gas boiler and replace with an air source heat pump. That puts up electricity use by around 5% but removes totally the cost of gas or oil for heating, including hot water. Our daughter has had it done and reckons she is about £1500 a year better off, but she was able to get a grant for most of the boiler costs from the Government here in France. Otherwise, they are around £30 - 40k and that would take 25 years for payback….. it is of course, green power.


I am sure I read those Air source heat pumps are crap Dave. Well in certain houses. I looked into it when was trying to get onboard the governments Green homes scheme which turned out to actually be a total scam (I told them so). I think with our house being an old stone house they just wouldn't be powerful enough to keep it warm in the winter. Perhaps the technology will improve.

One things for sure though, everyone is talking about saving money and insulating now. Suddenly those daft feckers that got sent to jail for gluing themselves to the M25 dont seem so daft now huh?


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

If installing a heat pump to an established heating system, that needs to be flushed out, many times and in detail before it’s connected, the heat pump cannot tolerate any sediment from radiators or pipes as it clogs the jets (which jets I have not got a clue, but it does) and that stops it working.

Most heating systems have steel radiators and sediment, kept under control by eg Fernox in the circulating water, but even that causes the sediment to still exist (try taking off an older radiator and draining it - but not over a carpet or similar as the black gunge is impossible to get out).

You have been warned, they are good with new systems, but the grants in France and the UKonly apply to replacing old gas or oil fired boilers which will be connected to old radiators. But they certainly do work even in freezing conditions (don’t ask me to explain how).

Once again, probably not relevant to thread, so sorry, but I will leave unless requested, urgently to do what I did before…


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Magic in our house Baz. Low power consumption to run them and huge heat output.

My brother, who is a scientist, reckons that when the air temp, UK style, is very low outside they may not be so efficient. Ours are amazing but they are not complicated with water heating or radiators. Just simple AC units that work in either direction and much less expensive than what the UK seems to be doing by heating water and circulating that through radiators.

I can provide all the info, if it's wanted. But what happens here sounds as thought it's not very much like what happens in the UK. Perhaps the climate there prevents it.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

This thread covered some of the relevant U.K. issues.

https://forums.motorhomefacts.com/78-subscribers-lounge/242975-heat-pumps-uk.html#post3188671

Terry


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

We are now on the price cap for our electricity due to all the business failures of companies that I had switched to. Prior to the rising costs we paid around £33 a month for electricity and now I have just set our monthly DD at £50. We are away for 2 months as you know, which will take a big dent out of our winter usage.

In terms of oil, again it is skewed as we are away. I put around 600 litres in a few months ago which filled our 1350 litre tank up to full and we still had 40% of the tank full when we left home in January. 

One thing that did increase this winter was our use of the log burner. I pay £45 for a dumpy bad of larch/Douglass fir and get 2 at a time. In winter we will probably get through 4 bags worth I reckon. I will order 2 more as soon as we get back as we were starting to get low and I envisage having the wood burner lit rather then than heating on, well into April.

Our heating is via oil and the house stats are set to 19 degrees. The hot water doesn't have a scale on it to show degrees but it's just hot enough to be uncomfortable putting my hand in it.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Our old house was clay lump. So similar, I would think, to yours Kev. Once the walls were warmed they actually stayed warm and helped with heating costs. I think that the idea is to not let them cool down because they take more energy to warm up again. I used to just turn the heating down at night in the winter.

In the new bungalow we have been forced, by building regs, to fit air source heating. Our understanding is that it works well if installed properly and that it is not as good with old radiators as it is with underfloor pipes but can work ok with new radiators. It needs to run through narrow pipes set close together. You are advised not to switch it off, ever. Just let all the zone valves, in every room, control how much heat they call for. Thermostats in every room control the zone valves and they all have timers to switch them to low in bedrooms etc when necessary.
Chris is also going to install a heat recovery system (should have done it during the build but that is a whole other story). This takes warm air from the kitchen and all the bathrooms up into a car radiator kind of thing that extracts any bad stuff and sends the cleaned warm air to the living rooms and bedrooms. Those that have it swear by it.
We did put 46 solar panels on the roof. We will probably never see the capital return but the feeling of getting free leccy is great 

Like Jean I dress in warm clothes at this time of year. I walk the dog twice daily and this boosts body warmth. Any veins near the surface like on the wrists and hands are best kept covered and warm. I try to buy only wool or cotton clothing.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I'm just looking at this for a garden house we are going to build: https://www.amazon.es/gp/product/B07YWV2N2N?ref=em_1p_1_ti&ref_=pe_32743091_663980061

Thought it might be of interest.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Our bungalow is wood frame/block outer and rendered. We find it much warmer than 2 brick layer houses we have lived in. plus we have the benefit that most of the day-to-day living accommodation is south facing which has a big effect given that we have large French windows facing south.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Drew said:


> What is the make and model number of your boiler Kev?
> 
> Same question to you Jean.


Mine is a Worcester Greenstar 28i Junior


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

erneboy said:


> I'm just looking at this for a garden house we are going to build: https://www.amazon.es/gp/product/B07YWV2N2N?ref=em_1p_1_ti&ref_=pe_32743091_663980061
> 
> Thought it might be of interest.


Is there something you're not telling us Alan? When I follow that link I get an advert for nappies n trainer pants!


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

jiwawa said:


> Is there something you're not telling us Alan? When I follow that link I get an advert for nappies n trainer pants!


I get an air conditioning unit.


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