# An Aire for Whitby?



## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

Just spent a few nights in Yorkshire - two of them on parking areas on the North Yorkshire Moors and one on a patch of gravel overlooking the sea just North of Sandsend.

We would have stayed in Whitby ... but ...

There's a huge 'long-stay' pay and display car park behind the marina, just along from the co-op supermarket. The steam railway runs alongside it. There's no entry control or height restriction. HGVs can stay there overnight as long as they turn off any fridge units. The charge for 24 hours is £6.

You can even park your motorhome there overnight - but here's the catch - as long as you don't sleep in it or cook in it!!!

Now here's a perfect location for an aire. The car park is HUGE and at night there are just a handful of vehicles in it. Some bold motorhomers have already sussed the system - the car park attendant visits at around 5pm in the afternoon and around 9am in the morning so it is possible to arrive late, stay over and buy a ticket at say, 8am and nobody will be any the wiser. But that's not really good enough is it?

Wouldn't it be a lot more sensible for Scarborough Borough Council to allow completely harmless stopovers and make a bit of money at the same time?

You can let them know what you think at this page on their website:

http://www.scarborough.gov.uk/Default.aspx?page=7447

Come on everybody - let's try a bit of pressure for what would be an excellent aire!

Harry


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Just let them know that you are a "traveller" - it might help them make up their minds about providing Aire-style facilities.


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## rayrecrok (Nov 21, 2008)

Wooaaa.

Stop the night in Whitby!, you must be mad.

You will have to have crucifixes strategically placed all over the van and a string of garlic against every access point.

Never mind carrying wooden stakes and a big hammer to drive them home.

Shudder!.

Stick to Cleethorpes.. :lol: :lol: :lol: ..


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

There again it might encourage them to put in a height barrier!

peedee


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

What is it National Pessimism Day today?

Come on, some positivity please!

H


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

National Realism Day, more like.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Seeker said:


> What is it National Pessimism Day today?
> 
> Come on, some positivity please!
> 
> H


Better to leave well alone, at least there is a day time parking spot then.

peedee


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

It's too late for that mate. I've already emailed them. And when I get the policy changed I'll specifically request exemptions for the naysayers around here!

70 years since the Battle of Britain. No doubt there were some around at the time who said "let's just surrender, Mr Hitler might not notice us then."

Harry


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

You sound very confident of a good outcome.

If you are that confident then put your address on here. If it all goes pear shaped and m/homes get banned I would not want to be in your shoes.  

How many thousand members will be affected? 8O 

Better start running now. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Seeker said:


> What is it National Pessimism Day today?
> 
> Come on, some positivity please!
> 
> H


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

I am confident. That's why I'm happy to put my address on here:

10 Downing Street
London


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Hi seeker, or should I say Mr cameron, Sir. :roll: 

In your first post, you mentioned the 'bold' motorhomers who arrive after 5 pm and get up early to buy a day ticket.

If you were to substitute 'freeloading cheapskates, it would have been more appropriate. I stayed ther last year along with 2 other vans. One of them definitely did not pay and I am fairly certain that the other did not either. 

When a popular overnighting place disappears, there is a great outcry about it. Usually, it disappears because of this sort of behaviour.

With regards to Whitby, if anyone sees a freeloader in this car park, please throw some bread on the roof of their van. The seagulls will ensure that they get an early morning call. :lol: :lol: .

I know a brilliant stopover in Scotland, which entails putting a few pounds in the honesty box. There is no way that I would publicise it, as I have seen too many freeloaders in motorhomes. Some of them brand new and very expensive.


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## TJJ (Mar 2, 2010)

*TO SEEKER*

Hi.
Harry.

There is no harm in asking WELL DONE.      

Cheers.
John...


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Hi Seeker, well I did make my statements a little tongue in cheek. Just thought I would be a little provocative :wink: Nevertheless I note from the campsite data base there are some very handily located sites very close/in Whitby. Cannot imagine them taking to kindly to overnight parking.

You could put this parking spot in the database and turn it into an aire when you suceed!

peedee


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

747 - I said 'bold' without thinking about it too much. 

There are two ways of seeing it - as you say, freeloaders, or as someone else might say - beating an unfair system that discriminates against motorhomers for no legitimate reason.

As we all know, right across the country we are discriminated against at seaside resorts and beauty spots by the use of height restricters or some other trick. I've seen many car parks at resorts virtually empty but motorhomes prevented from parking. Why? Sheer prejudice? Vested interests of the campsite owners on the local council? Fear of hordes of gypsies? Whatever it is it is outrageous and we need to get annoyed about it and fight back.

In trying to get unfair things changed there are many tactics that can be used. One is to write letters and make a fuss. Another is to use guerilla tactics to beat the unfair system.

One thing that never works is to sit on your hands and say nowt.

Harry


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

I think they will just tell you to use one of their camp sites, that is what East Yorkshire Council told me once.


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

It is easy for councils to tell us to use a campsite - they just need reminding that they are invariably not within walking distance of restaurants/shops/pubs in which we may well spend more money than parking on a campsite that we don't need.

Why can't they take a leaf out of the book of virtually every French town and village?


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Hi seeker,

Broadly speaking, I agree with you. The problem is that this car park in Whitby does not have height barriers to prevent motorhomes. Quite a lot use it, get their water from the Marina and use the public loo. The local people are not blind but nobody has seen fit to object to motorhomes.

The ruling states no overnight sleeping in the car park. If HGV's use it, then the drivers will certainly be sleeping in the cabs. Outside of National Parks etc., I do not know anyone who has been moved on at night. If the Police are knocking about, it is usually to make sure that you are OK.

BTW, I am not sitting on my hands.


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## mandyandandy (Oct 1, 2006)

I can't imagine many HGV drivers just passing through Whitby by chance and finding it convenient place to spend the night. Would it not be possible for it to be local HGV drivers who live on one of the many narrow streets in the town just using for parking over night. 

Just a thought, love Whitby as a place to visit but not always felt that welcome to want to stay the night there. 

Mandy


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

Thanks 747 - and I know you're not sitting on your hands - else you wouldn't be able to type your posts!

Jezport - if they tell us to use a campsite then I think we should squeal all the louder. When we want to just stopover it's because we don't need their facilities so why should we pay £15 - £25 for a parking spot for the profit of campsite owners? If you stop somewhere for a picnic you don't expect the local cops to come round telling you to use a restaurant.

We are (almost) all responsible people who don't make a mess or a nuisance of ourselves. All we want is a king size parking bay and that's it. (If they want to provide water and waste management, fine.)

I think the motorhome community is growing each year and could/should make its presence felt.

So let's tell them at every chance we get.

Harry


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

Seeker said:


> Jezport - if they tell us to use a campsite then I think we should squeal all the louder. When we want to just stopover it's because we don't need their facilities so why should we pay £15 - £25 for a parking spot for the profit of campsite owners? If you stop somewhere for a picnic you don't expect the local cops to come round telling you to use a restaurant.
> 
> We are (almost) all responsible people who don't make a mess or a nuisance of ourselves. All we want is a king size parking bay and that's it. (If they want to provide water and waste management, fine.)
> 
> ...


I have sent letters to East Yorkshire council. After they responded telling me that I should use a site for all sorts of reasons that applied to caravans (not MHs)I explained that MHs dont need the facilities of camp sites due to the fact that we can cappy our waste water and general waste and if only stopping for a couple of days we dont need water. I also explained that sites in their area are not open all year and that most motorhomers spend money at shops restaurants and pubs around the areas that they stayed.

I even sent an email to the Bridlington free press (thats not free) 

We used to go to Brid lots of times a year in our car always buying fish and chips etc but have given it a miss and spent our money elsewhere since their council thought it clever to stick a warning sticker on my van at 7am on a bank holiday morning. :twisted:


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

Well done Jez, that's the spirit!

Which national organisation might take up the fight for us do you think?

Harry


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

I think that we should club together and pay for a delegation from every UK council and Chamber of Commerce to do a tour of French Aires de Repos des Camping Cars.

All they need to do on their freebie jaunt is ask the Mairies of the French cités, villes et villages why they go out of their way to provide us with facilities in or close to them, 
usually at no or very low cost.

I know the answer, you know the answer - so why is it not getting through to our local councils?

Fear of travellers, sipsiwn, gens de voyage will be the inevitable but unspoken reply.

I think that we need to attack this from both ends, local and national.

The big barrier at national level is the law of trespass being a civil one.

As a result it costs thousands of pounds and an unacceptable delay to initiate action against said travellers, sipsiwn, gens de voyage and their encampments.

I am only a "galley lawyer" so we could do with some real advice on the topic.

We must surely have some Barristers among the MHF membership.

It is no good getting any of the camping/caravanning "societies/clubs" involved as it is not to their advantage.


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

That might be costly Pippin! But all ideas are worth exploring.

Perhaps more publicity and fun could be had by arranging for around 20 of us to stay over on the Whitby car park on the same night - buying fish and chips and drinking in the local pubs, but sleeping in our vans! We could have banners and give out leaflets and get the local press and regional TV down.

That would make them realise what they're missing and no inconvenience to anyone. 

We could arrive around 18.00, pay for a 24 hour ticket, stay over and leave as promptly at 09.00. They would not charge us with breaking the rules because it would just be more publicity for the cause.

Any takers?

Harry


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

In my opinion most councils believe through ignorance that:

A Motorhomes are no different to caravans
B Motorhomers ar another kind of gypsy
C Camp sites are where motorhomes belong
D Motorhoming is not green
E Motorhomers will dump rubbish and waste
F Local people will complain if they permit motorhome parking
G Motorhomers do not vote in their area so dont matter
H Motorhomers take everything with them so do not benefit local traders
I Motorhomes are an eyesore
J Motorhomers, motorhome as they cant afford a propper holiday

Plus probably lots more.

We really need somene who is a councilor and a motorhomer to help us. Or we need to draft a flyer which we put lots of MH facts on and distribute arround places like the Yorkshire coast paying attention to traders who would benefit from our attendance.


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## jonegood (Nov 5, 2007)

Im with Harry

I think it is crazy that we have perfectly satisfactory carparks that we are prevented from using by small mindedness.

I have sent my comments to Scarborough Council. and will start working again on Shropshire Council. I was getting somewhere until it was decided by that we would have a unitary council and it s never quite settled down again.

BTW its not about money for us, we want to be in the town or next to the beach, happy to pay a fair price but don t want to be miles away.

Jon


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Maybe lobbying the local businesses is the way to go. Or Rotary clubs etc. If the businesses can see that there is extra money to be made then they will have more local influence with the council. The council wont care as they are public sector workers who would never dare make a decision or would take years doing risk assesments etc. Go for the business people, present a case where they can seem some extra income and they will do the work for you.


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

I've had an acknowledgement email with letter back from Scarborough BC.

They promise a detailed reply within ten days ... will keep you posted.

Harry


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Seeker said:


> I've had an acknowledgement email with letter back from Scarborough BC.
> 
> They promise a detailed reply within ten days ... will keep you posted.
> 
> Harry


Good luck and nice one for having a go. I hope it works out. You never know.

Cheers
BD


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

here's the reply just received from Scarborough BC. I will of course be replying to this nonsense:

"I refer to your query regarding Overnight parking for motorhomes. Unfortunately Scarborough Borough Council do not allow sleeping overnight in our car parks or on street. Members of the Council have made this decision as there is not any appropriate facilities for vehicles to park overnight. ie Running Water or waste disposal facilities

You may park your vehicle provided that you do not sleep in the vehicle, however your vehicle should be removed to an appropriate camp site should you wish to camp. Please click on the link below to view sites in the area.

http://www.scarborough.gov.uk/Default.aspx?page=13781

Yours Sincerely

Jane Wilson"


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Write back and tell them that we do not need _Running Water or waste disposal facilities _.

What we do need if we are to spend money in their restaurants of an evening is to be able to sleep in their carparks within walking distance.

There is no such thing as an _appropriate_ campsite if it is out of town!


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

Thanks Pippin - here's my reply:


Dear Ms Wilson

Thank you for your reply to my enquiry.

I'd like to take it further as the Council's policy is based on a major misunderstanding. For periods of 3 - 4 days Motorhomes are self-sufficient in respect of both fresh water and waste disposal. They simply would not stop on the Whitby car park if they needed either of these facilities. 

When these facilities are not available at overnight stops, as would be the case at the Whitby car park, motorhome owners simply wait till they are stopping on a campsite to fill up with fresh water and to dump waste water and toilet waste. Motorhome owners are highly responsible people, many of them retired with a strong sense of social responsibility. I'm sure that many of your own citizens are among them.

I have mentioned before that there are thousands of overnight stopping places on the continent where the arrangement proposed works perfectly well and brings income into the municipality. Basic rules can be applied about the length of stay and payment. 

The point of being able to stop in the centre of Whitby is that it would allow motorhome owners to dine out or have a drink without having to worry about driving late at night to a campsite some miles away. At the same time they could stock up with supplies in local shops and supermarkets. Sleeping in the motorhome makes absolutely no difference to simply parking it overnight - the same space is occupied and nobody is inconvenienced in any way. Indeed, your restaurants would actually benefit from more people coming in for a full English breakfast!

Your suggestion that a campsite is the only solution seems to favour campsite owners over motorhome visitors. As I have explained, motorhomes very often do not need the facilities of a campsite and forcing them to use one would mean they have to pay out £15 - £25 per night just for a parking place. I'm sure you would agree that is totally unreasonable and almost certainly acts as a deterrent to visiting Whitby in the first place. 

By becoming motorhome-friendly you would be sure to attract more visitors from both the UK and overseas.

Please let me know who I should write to in order to pursue the matter further.

Thank you

Yours sincerely


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

Scarborough is twinned with Osterode am Har in Germany.

Here's its website and a map of the city with parking places marked. Can anyone read sufficient German to determine whether any of the car parks allow motorhome overnighting? The legend does include the term 'stellplatz'.

Thanks

Harry


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Harry, the attached was not attached so please attach the not attached!


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

Sorry!

http://www.osterode.de/pdf/stadtplan_parkplatz.pdf


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

Seeker said:


> here's the reply just received from Scarborough BC. I will of course be replying to this nonsense:
> 
> "I refer to your query regarding Overnight parking for motorhomes. Unfortunately Scarborough Borough Council do not allow sleeping overnight in our car parks or on street. Members of the Council have made this decision as there is not any appropriate facilities for vehicles to park overnight. ie Running Water or waste disposal facilities
> 
> ...


I would have bet my life savings on that type or reply. I got a similar one from East yorkshire Council. I replied telling them about what facilities we have onboard our van explaining that we did not need a camp site. They did not reply.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Its about the answer I would have expected from most councils in the UK. Like I said in my previous post they are public sector servants who really dont care or have any decision making clout. What you want is the ear of influential local business owners who are on the council or have the ear of someone at the council that can make it happen.

You never know, your very well worded response may get somewhere but I wouldnt bet on it.

Cheers
BD


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

OK Harry, here you go:

Wohnmobilstellplatz in Osterode am Harz
Deutschland (Niedersachsen)
Kontaktdaten:
Parkplatz Bleichestelle Scheerenbergerstr
37520 Osterode am Harz

I suggest that you ask the Scarborough twinning committe to contact their opposite numbers to ask them what/why about their Stellplatz fur Wohnmobil.


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

barryd said:


> Its about the answer I would have expected from most councils in the UK. Like I said in my previous post they are public sector servants who really dont care or have any decision making clout. What you want is the ear of influential local business owners who are on the council or have the ear of someone at the council that can make it happen.
> 
> You never know, your very well worded response may get somewhere but I wouldnt bet on it.
> 
> ...


In God's own county of Powys all town car parks I know have for many years permitted overnighting in MHs free. It's stated on the terms and conditions board next to the ticket machines. To be free though you have to arrive after 6. You also can't stay more than 1 in 7 nights in any one.

Now what does that sound like? and it's been happening for years.

Dick


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

With thanks to all, esp. Pippin and Dick, my letter to Scarborough BC regarding the Whitby car park is in the attached pdf file.

Harry


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Spot-on Harry - I am sure we all await a (sensible) reply with bated breath!


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

Well, here it is at last. After three separate prompts I've finally received a reasonably full response to my letter to Scarbough BC on my suggestion that they should allow for an aire at Whitby. The 2 page reply is associated with this post and you should be able to download it.

It's a rejection, as expected, but it's useful to see the arguments laid out in some detail.

There is an element of "it's always been thus so it won't change" but also some weak arguments that others might like to challenge.

We really need the national bodies to take up the cause generally and perhaps to think of ways to bring pressure of some kind.

Harry


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Well what a typical and unfortunately predictable short sighted response. This country is pathetic. Well most of its councils are.

Cant remember if you referred them to whats going on in Flyde Borough council where they are embracing this idea. St Annes and Lytham are just as nice a seaside resort as Whitby and clearly they see the advantages.

Did they not read your correspondence? Why mention campsites when you clearly stated that we wont use them as they are not near the town and we dont need them.

And the old toilet waste down the drains and rubbish everywhere story. Filthy lot arent we!

Ah well everyone. Stuff whitby, France again next year?


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

From what I've heard about Scarborough BC from my client who runs 2 big fish & chip cafes on Sandside in Scarborough, that is fairly typical of their attitude. They are trying to "protect" their local campsite operators by saying we should use campsites, but where are these campsites? Mostly out in the sticks, and many of these are holiday park type sites, rather than a quiet overnight. And are they open out of the main season? :evil:


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

Thanks Barry D and Bognor Mike, some good points.

Perhaps I can stir myself once again for the fray - if members post their suggestions for responses and reasonable arguments I can put together a reasoned reply and copy it also to the local rag(s)?

I look forward to more comments.

Harry


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## philoaks (Sep 2, 2008)

You have a PM Harry.


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## rocky58 (May 11, 2005)

sent my comments to the council


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Im not sure what else you can do. Your considered and very well worded approach said it all. Perhaps its time for a different tack and forwarding it all to the local rag may well be the way to go. Perhaps you can use the Flyde councils proposal as an example.

If the local rag runs a story then perhaps local business owners will read it and get onside then perhaps the council may listen.

The argument about campsites is just pointless. The type of motorhomers who wild camp or are prepared to stay on Aires or the car park in Whitby do not stay on campsites so the campsite owners will not be loosing any trade as these motorhomers simply wont come. Those that use the campsites will still use them as thats what they like.

The only people loosing out are the traders in Whitby. The motorhomers wont loose out we will just simply go somewhere else to spend our hard earned cash.

Personally I admire your patience and determination I think many are put off having a go at the local councils as it just seems impossible to get them to change their views or to listen.


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## Addie (Aug 5, 2008)

I wonder if a freedom of information request would deliver the actual numbers of complaints made which they cite?


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

I would be inclined to wait and see what Fylde Council decide. If it was favourable it would be a great plus point.

peedee


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## wakk44 (Jun 15, 2006)

Isn't the attitude of the council typical of this country and it's attitude to tourism.

The part I dont like with the reply is the insinuation that an aire near the town centre would somehow devalue the town and there could be a likliehood of problems caused by m/homers.

Well I don't think your typical ''chugger'' is going to get inebriated and start fighting and pukeing everywhere.The opposite actually,they would(hopefully) be well behaved,respectful of the area and bring some welcome trade to the town.

If only some of our local councils would look to France as an example where we are welcomed with open arms


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## JohnH (May 10, 2005)

I sometimes think that we are going about requesting "Aires" incorrectly. If the law differentiated between parking and camping as it is in some continental countries we might stand a chance of being able to "park" overnight.
Councils generally are following the government lead. Motorhomes do not have a class of their own, they are leisure vehicles used for camping. This puts them in exactly the same bracket as caravans and other vehicles which are used solely for residing in.
A lorry has a class and a description for the driver which has rules and regulations as to it's use and the stopping times etc. for it's driver.
If we could get the motorhome recognised in law as a self-contained vehicle which can be used by the occupants for sleeping in etc then we might stand a chance.
Parking = stopping in a particular place with no external assistance.
Camping = chocks, awnings, tables and chairs, water carriers etc.
John


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

wakk44 said:


> Isn't the attitude of the council typical of this country and it's attitude to tourism.
> 
> The part I dont like with the reply is the insinuation that an aire near the town centre would somehow devalue the town and there could be a likliehood of problems caused by m/homers.
> 
> ...


Yes and surely the presence of actual people in the vans on an evening would actual improve security for the lorries, vans and cars that are left overnight.

I remember years ago when we were kids we used to take a camper van to the lakes fishing and we stayed for free on a boat yard right on the lake. The chap who owned it said it was great for security. He only every had a problem when we werent there!


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## rocky58 (May 11, 2005)

sent my comments to the council


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

Send them a link to the Fylde councils proposals to start using carparks for motorhomes.


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

peedee said:


> I would be inclined to wait and see what Fylde Council decide. If it was favourable it would be a great plus point.
> 
> peedee


Yep, I am inclined to agree with you Peedee, however, top marks to Harry for getting the subject in the spotlight where Scarborough BC is concerned.

If we are welcomed all over France, Belgium and Germany, then surely there are plenty model examples for our UK authorities to look at and consider. Canterbury had some foresight, albeit on their New Dover Rd Park & Ride. Overnighting in large MH bays, with buses every 8 mins, the last one arriving at 20.00, and there is a pub/restaurant on site. There is fresh water as well as black and grey waste facilities, and all for £2.50 per 24hr period. What a facility.

Regards,

Jock.


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## chrisda (Oct 2, 2008)

did anyone know that you can park overnight on west cliff at whitby along the sea front,there is also a large car park wich we have seen a couple of motorhomes overnight there but not sure if it is allowed .but it definatly is on west cliff!!!!!


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

JockandRita said:


> Yep, I am inclined to agree with you Peedee, however, top marks to Harry for getting the subject in the spotlight where Scarborough BC is concerned.


Agreed but the council have come back and said NO even in the face of a good case for an aire. I therefore cannot see much point in pressing further unless there is a better case. Even if Fylde agreed to set up overnight parking spots I suspect other councils won't exactly rush to do the same. Fylde will help to raise awareness but other sceptical councils are more likely to monitor the situation to see if it does actually work without problems. If there is a positive outcome then that would be the time to have another go.

peedee


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

I have in the past contacted the East Yorkshire council about Bridlington. They were not interested. It seemed to me that the council were more interested in protecting the camp site owners.


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## hblewett (Jan 28, 2008)

I've added my thoughts to the council, but before reading to the end of the thread. Looks like we're back to the continent again next year. They are so short-sighted.


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## rocky58 (May 11, 2005)

got this back from scarborough council

Thank you for your comments regarding motorhome parking on the Marina Back Car Park in Whitby.

The Council's current policy on Motor Home parking on the Car Parks is that spaces on all the Off Street Car Parks should not be used for the purposes of cooking, camping or overnight sleeping. Notwithstanding this, the car parking arrangements are reviewed by Council members on an annual basis, therefore I shall pass on your comments for consideration.

Yours Sincerely

Jane Wilson

Jane Wilson
Parking Services Officer
Parking Services
Technical Services
Scarborough Borough Council


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

An aire for Whitby? Thats Pickering showground isn't it?

C..


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## hblewett (Jan 28, 2008)

I have just received the same answer as rocky 58. 

Maybe if they receive enough comments it will help, then again it might hinder if it is seen as too many. As stated previously by others, it is probably the traders and chamber of trade that we need to get to - Councillors do take notice when traders rattle on about hard times etc


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## GordonBennet (Sep 22, 2010)

*Scarborough BC - Myopia?*

I used to live in Whitby, twenty or more years ago, and recall the dissappointment felt in the town by residents when Whitby Borough Council was to be subsumed into Scarborough BC..... They are very different communities from one another, with very different outlooks and needs. Perhaps Scarborough (relatively big, Edwardian, brash, caravan sites, faded) and 20 miles away, still just don't "get it" with Whitby (relatively small, close-knit fishing community and family day-trip destination) so are making some sweeping assumptions that Whitby traders and visitors simply don't recognise...?

I bet Whitby businesses would support the cause.

The local paper is the Whitby Gazette, btw.

More grist t' t'mill..... 

GB


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## wakk44 (Jun 15, 2006)

Good point about the differences between Scarborough and Whitby,they are quite different and both administered by SBC.

It would be interesting to find out the views of the Whitby traders,I think they would be in favour apart from the camp site owners,but the people that would use the Aire are unlikely to use local camp sites.Perhaps a letter to the Whitby Gazette would be useful and help gauge local opinion.

An Aire near the centre of town would be a boost for local tourism and local trade.The council could also make something,I am sure m/homers would willingly pay £5-6 per night to stay there.All the council would have to do is provide water,waste,and toilet facilities.

An Aire would be a big step forward for the area and if successful other local areas could follow suit.Perhaps if they looked at how the rest of Europe and how m/homers are catered for the local council might be persuaded.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Some Scarborough Councillors are also Caravan Park owners. This was raised some time ago on another forum, I will see if I can dig up some info.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

As promised, I have dug out a correspondence from a Scarborough Councillor in reply to emails from motorhome owners and their continued ability to park in Scarborough. This is from August 2009.

I know it is not Whitby but the same thinking will apply.

Reply here from Cllr Backhouse - Not so sure of his unbiasedness though!


Dear Mr W
Thankyou for your e-mail, and the comments that it contains. May I make
it very clear that I have no personal gripe with the many hundreds of
responsible motorhome owners. It is, as usual, the few that spoil it for
the majority.
As a bit of background info my family have been involved with owning
caravan parks in the borough of Scarborough since 1971, and I am well
aware of the actions of the responsible owners. I am also well aware of
the services, and utility provision, that motorhomes require therefore I
cannot agree with your statement that says that "motor homes, being
entirely self contained, require no services that caravan sites supply".
Can you please tell me where motorhomes discharge their effluent, if not
at a waste disposal point contained within a caravan park, and where do
said motorhomes refill their water tanks?
Whilst as an authority we do not wish to discourage motorhomes it is the
comments received from members of the public and business world that we
are trying to address. They have raised comments about the choice of
area, i.e. Marine Drive, Sanside, The Esplanade, etc.
As you will be aware these areas enjoy our most pleasurable vistas, to
be enjoyed by everyone, visitor and resident alike, and yet they get
"hi-jacked" by dozens of motorhomes blocking the views for others. They
stay for days on end, effluent buckets visible to one and all, and
undertake activities more suitable to a properly licenced caravan park.
That aside, can I give you assurances that all comments received
regarding the proposed traffic regulation orders, will be taken into
consideration before any actions are agreed. At the time of reply we (
SBC) have decided to defer any decision on the above until our winter
period when we will have time to consult with a wide range of our
hospitality providers. We have already had suggestions of setting aside
specific areas for motorhomes, and this is just one amongst many
suggestions that we will be considering.
Can I make it clear, at this juncture, that if an area is agreed by
members, it WILL NOT BE THE AREAS OUTLINED ABOVE, for the reasons
stated.
I would also comment that our council does not assume that motorhome
users are poor, but clearly recognises that they are taking advantage of
the convenience of their choice of transport. There is a world of
difference between people who choose to sleep in vans, and the older VW
type motorhomes, and those who, for example, drive Hymers. Mercedes etc.
As an authority we welcome our many varied visitors and will continue to
try and provide accomodation, and hospitality, to fit all.
Thank you for your interest in the matter of overnight motorhome
parking, I am sure you will follow our determination of such proposals
with interest.
Kind regards
Cllr Andrew Backhouse


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## GordonBennet (Sep 22, 2010)

JohnH said:


> I sometimes think that we are going about requesting "Aires" incorrectly. If the law differentiated between parking and camping as it is in some continental countries we might stand a chance of being able to "park" overnight.
> Councils generally are following the government lead. Motorhomes do not have a class of their own, they are leisure vehicles used for camping. This puts them in exactly the same bracket as caravans and other vehicles which are used solely for residing in.
> A lorry has a class and a description for the driver which has rules and regulations as to it's use and the stopping times etc. for it's driver.
> If we could get the motorhome recognised in law as a self-contained vehicle which can be used by the occupants for sleeping in etc then we might stand a chance.
> ...


I think I'm right in thinking that there is a legal distinction between motorhomes, vans and caravans. It's applied on the Severn Bridge crossing, for example. If your van has a fixed, plumbed-in sink, it is a "motorhome" so you pay that toll to cross the bridge. If there's no sink, or if the sink is just cosmetic and not plumbed-in, I believe you're treated as a commercial van and pay that toll. I think commercial vans pay more but, the point is, there seems to be a perfectly viable, legal distinction between motorhomes and other powered vehicles, which is already in use and, presumeably, sanctioned by a central government department (Transport?), and which councils could apply if they were so minded.....

I can't believe it would be beyond the wit of any sensible local council, if they were sympathetic to the idea of attracting MH'ers and increasing local trade, to draw up a car parking restriction which allowed powered vehicles with fixed sinks to park overnight between, say, 6PM and 9AM, for a charge, payable at the machine, just like cars during the day. Perhaps there would be a restriction on the number of nights on the trot but that would seem reasonable anyway.

Could this mean that councils could "follow the government lead" after all and so make a sensible decision without fretting about central government approvals being refused....?

Where there's a will there's a way.

GB


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

Where theres a will theres a way! Not with the council, they have no will.

Also, your V5 document will say if if a vehicle is commercial or a motor caravan,

What makes a 'Motor Caravan'?
For a vehicle to qualify as a 'Motor Caravan' in the UK in the eyes of the DVLA the following permanent fixtures must be present:

■Sleeping Accommodation

■There must be a bed with a minimum length of 6ft or 180cms
■The bed must be an integral part of the vehicle living accommodation area
■The bed must be permanent or converted from seats (the bed can fold away during the day)
■The bed fixtures must be secured directly to the vehicle floor and/or side walls, unless it is over the drivers cab compartment.

■Door

■There must be a horizontal sliding door or an outward opening rear or side door.

■Seats and Tables

■There must be a seating area for diners to sit around
■The table can be fixed or detachable
■The table must mount directly to the vehicle floor or side walls
■The table mounting must be secured as a permanent feature, either bolted screwed or welded. The table itself can be detachable.
■Seats must be secured directly to the vehicle floor and/or side walls
■The seats must be secured as a permanent fixture, either bolted, riveted, screwed or welded
■Permanently secured seating must be available for use at a table

■Water Container

■The vehicle must have an onboard or external (e,g, under the chassis) water container
■Note: The insurer Adrian Flux requires the water container to hold 6 gallons / 27 litres.

■Storage 
■The vehicle must have at least one cupboard, locker or wardrobe
■The cupboard must be an integral part of the living accommodation area
■The cupboard must be a permanent feature, either bolted, riveted, screwed or welded
■The cupboard must be secured directly to the vehicle floor and / or side walls

■Cooking 
■The vehicle must have cooking facilities powered by fixed gas, electric hob or microwave oven
■The cooking facilities must be secured directly to the vehicle floor or side wall
■The cooking facilities must be a permanent feature, either bolted, riveted, screwed or welded
■Gas and electric hobs must have a minimum or 2 cooking rings. Microwave ovens must have a power source (don't just fit one that can't be used)
■Gas cooking facilities with remote fuel supplies must have the gas supply pipe permanently secured to the vehicle structure
■Gas cooking facilities with remote fuel supplies should have the gas bottle, fuel reservoir secured to the vehicle structure

■Windows 

■The vehicle must have at least one side window


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## GordonBennet (Sep 22, 2010)

Yep, but while I can accept your point that all these aspects do make a valid distinction and define a Motorhome for the DVLA, does it necessarily follow that local authorities are bound by them to formulate their own parking regulations? And does it actually matter what definition they use just so long as they are fit for purpose. If these are the only acceptable criteria, perhaps they are perfectly good as they are and are a way of supporting the case for overnighting anyway.

If some local authorities are already allowing sleep/parking overnight (Exeter park and ride springs to mind and there must be lots more), presumably they are using some suitable definition which works....?

GB


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

Unfortunatly I think Scarborough council and many other councils are not brave enough to lead the way in this type of venture. They will only follow once the more forward thinking councils like Fylde have done it and proved it works.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Jezport said:


> Unfortunatly I think Scarborough council and many other councils are not brave enough to lead the way in this type of venture. They will only follow once the more forward thinking councils like Fylde have done it and proved it works.


Scarborough Councillors will not want to upset fellow Councillors who just happen to own caravan parks. :roll:


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

747 said:


> Jezport said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunatly I think Scarborough council and many other councils are not brave enough to lead the way in this type of venture. They will only follow once the more forward thinking councils like Fylde have done it and proved it works.
> ...


I did think along similar lines :roll:


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Do they think that if they continue to oppose in town motorhome overnighting that all these motorhomes will flock to their campsites?

If so they are sadly mistaken. They will simply go somewhere else where they are welcome or its easier to park.

And as for that idiot that 747 quoted saying we are not self sufficient, well if I leave home on a Friday for a long weekend full of water and with an empty loo I can turn up, park for 3 or 4 nights, return home with an empty water tank and full loo and just empty it at home. Nothing touches the ground except my wheels.

What a Tool!


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

Councils should look to suport local resident and traders but keep local taxes low and give good value for money. One way to do this is to get more people into their area spending money in shops, filling stations, restaurants and takeaways, parking etc. As a person who has run and managed businesses for many years I would consider attracting motorhomers a good idea.


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## chickann (Sep 17, 2010)

not sure if this has been suggested before, but i would not object to letting a motorhomer use my drive for a stop over on the way to somewhere, if they wish to use electric, maybe a small charge for the use of that. i would expect there are quite a few of us that may have a bit of land for parking on, just an idea.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

chickann said:


> not sure if this has been suggested before, but i would not object to letting a motorhomer use my drive for a stop over on the way to somewhere, if they wish to use electric, maybe a small charge for the use of that. i would expect there are quite a few of us that may have a bit of land for parking on, just an idea.


Im sure I read on here or somewhere of such a scheme getting started. A kind offer.


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