# Jane Hill shoots herself in the foot !



## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

If you have Febs copy of MMM go to page nine. Jane Hill rants away, don't think I'll be going there,irrespective of whether I tow a car, have an RV, motorhome, or a dog, or use the showers and toilets. I know she's responding to an previous letter about charging extra for a towed car, but she comes across as not the sort of person who should run a campsite.
I'm up to my eyes in paint and polyfiller at the moment but will add her site and may be an abridged transcript of her letter, to my SITES THAT HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO CHARGE EXTRA FOR TOWED CARS data base which I will paste on later.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Also look at MMM page 16 title EXTRAS, come on help me out! it shoundn't be a one man war!

Jim Butcher or Guzzijim


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

*Campsites that have been known to charge extra for a car towed on an A frame.*
1.	This year, Camping Municipal at la Fleche, ( not a C.C. site ), did charge extra for the 
Car, less than 2 euros I think. ( Richard & Judy Bain MCC )

2.	We left the Caravan Club over this when we complained about a CL and got no support whatsoever. ( Paul G. MCC )

3.	Camping Cheques Site @ St.Ives Polmanter charge £1( Jim Butcher MCC )

4.	Camping Cheques Site @ Dawlish Crofton Holiday Park £2.20 per night. (Peter & Sue Hargreaves MCC )

5.	Roundhills in the New Forest, a Forestry Commission site, additional fee of £5 per night. We were due to visit a Forestry Commission site in Scotland for 5 weeks in September, but as the cost would now be an additional £175, guess who is moving to a site that does not charge this fee. ( James Hanks-Tucker Nov.MMM )

6.	I understand all Forestry Commision sites in the UK are charging £5.00 extra for a towed car whether it be on an A-frame or trailer. There argument being that they charge for a vehicle (I suppose with an engine) plus a non-engined trailer (caravan or trailer tent). Strange then, that they charge extra if you tow a boat behind a motorhome, whether it has an engine or not. ( Mike MCC )

7.	When we where Spain last year at Camping International near Playa de Aro we where charged extra for a car, so its not just Britain, if sites think they can make an extra buck, they do, supply and demand, just good business if you can do it.
( Olley Motorhome Facts.com )

8.	When we were in Spain last year at Camping International near Playa de Aro we were charged extra for a car, so its not just Britain, if sites think they can make an extra buck they do, supply and demand, just good business if you can do it.
( Olley Motorhome Facts.com )

9.	I have also found a site south-west of Inverness that was proposing to charge me £2 a night for my motorbike, which I had brought up for the Loch Ness rally. They deemed it an extra vehicle! It seems a bit mean.

10.	Add Newton Mill Camping, Newton Road, Bath to your list. Whilst it is their policy, I argued quite strongly with the owner of the site about it and had the charge waived on that occasion.

From Peedee @ Motorhome Facts

11. Another is Old Oaks Caravan Park Glastonbury, an excellent adults only site. They will waive the charge if you are disabled.

From Peedee @ Motorhome Facts

12. Stroud Hill touring caravan site Pidley, Cambridgeshire
Caravan or motorhome, £21.00 per night, includes 2 adults, includes 2 adults electric hook-up and any awnings, please note that cars or trailers towed behind motorhomes are considered 'additional'
Additional adults, car* or trailer £ 2.50 per night
See MMM Feb 2006 Two Sides to every story.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

The clear answer to this problem is to stop a short distance from the campsite entrance and then reverse in. You will then be a car with a van attched and as such such qualify for caravan rates.
  

G


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## LadyJ (May 9, 2005)

My gripe is with sites that charge for dogs


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## smifee (May 17, 2005)

i've had enough of crusades. 

there are several crusades re MHs - height barriers, parking, stopovers etc. a lot of energy has been spent and all to no effect.

just relax & let others do the campaigning. they won't get anywhere and you won't have wasted your time & energy.

my final crusade was the nationwide building society. went to the AGM with 4 proxy votes to get the directors pay cut. when the chairman announced his 500,000 proxy votes would be cast for the status quo i realised it's not worth the effort.

the campsite owners will charge what they can and only change it if occupancy rates fall. MHers are a drop in the ocean. those who tow a car are whatever the term is for something smaller than a drop.

mike


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

quote="smifee"]i've had enough of crusades.

there are several crusades re MHs - height barriers, parking, stopovers etc. a lot of energy has been spent and all to no effect.

just relax & let others do the campaigning. they won't get anywhere and you won't have wasted your time & energy.
mike[/quote]
*smifee*
The charging for A frame cars is just a personal list the I keep for myself if others want to add to it, great! I just hate being ripped off and would prefer not to give those sites my money.
The real point of "Jane shoots herself in the foot " was the women's attitude no way would I want to stay on her site. Tony Warner simply asked why was she charging extra for a car. Three columns of ranting in MMM is a bit much, don't you think?


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## 89079 (May 13, 2005)

I suspect I might be criticised if I asked who_ should _pay for any vehicle towed onto a camp site.
I might even be lynched if I asked who should pay for the dogs, if not the owners.

Oh well, I better not ask then. 

---
Steven


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

rozinante said:


> I suspect I might be criticised if I asked who_ should _pay for any vehicle towed onto a camp site.
> I might even be lynched if I asked who should pay for the dogs, if not the owners.
> 
> Oh well, I better not ask then.
> ...


Sorry steve I don't understand what your trying to say, maybe you've missed the point.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

I don't see why anyone should pay extra for a car - or why there should be any need to pay for the car at all. If the whole outfit will not fit on one pitch and has to extend over to another one then fair enough, you might have to pay for two pitches but you are occupying them. Otherwise I can't see why there should not be a flat rate. Pitch costs £x per night, power cost £y per night ( if required) and that's it. 

I've noticed fewer people use the loos, showers and washing up area as they prefer their own sanitation and sink. Charging extra for "extra" people other than the driver makes no sense if the occupants do not use the facilities. 

As for dogs. I'm not a dog owner but I'd still not charge for ( well-behaved )dogs.Apart from wearing out the grass on the dog walking area I don't see what you can charge them for. Mind you, I'd throw out all the yappy ones that start barking at the slightest thing, day and night. Thankfully most dogs seem quite blase about the whole experience and don't do this.

G


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

I raised issues regarding jacked prices on sites over bank holiday periods, similar vein of post to this, general concensus from the thread was " supply and demand" is if that solves anything!

I suppose there always those people who accept charges for this that and whatever, be it dogs, cars, boats, and others that won't.


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## 89079 (May 13, 2005)

guzzijim said:


> rozinante said:
> 
> 
> > maybe you've missed the point.
> ...


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## Pusser (May 9, 2005)

I am pretty sure this is called Capitalism. The idea is that charges can be anything they want to be but this is balanced carefully between too expensive that you cannot sell your product and not to cheap you cannot make a decent profit.

Thus in the above postings example, a campsite that is nearly full will probably charge for an A frame, side tent, smartcar, in the shade, out the shade, with the view, without the view, dogs, humans, showers and toilets whereas a campsite that is virtually empty will charge a flat one of fee just to cover his dinner that night.


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## 95603 (Jul 1, 2005)

Some serious questions on the extra vehicle.

If I tow a caravan with a campervan (VW T5 or similar) and book a site pitch for the caravan will I have to pay extra for the campervan? (The CC says no).

If not, under the club ruling that I now have only one motor but two habitable units will I have to pay extra for the campervan or buy a second pitch? (The CC says yes). Who determines if I am using two habitable units? (The site wardens)

If I tow a car on a trailer with a motor caravan and my family also bring their own car what do I have to pay? (The CC says pay for the extra car or for both on some sites).

I am now totally confused about the policy.

May I point out that the Jane Hill "rant" in MMM is a copy of the same "rant" in the CC magazine.

Regards,

Mike.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

What is seems to come down to Mke is that no-one has thought this out carefully enough - there is no sensible policy. Like so many of our laws and rules in this country at least, it doesn't seem able to adjust to fit the actual circumstances. At base is perhaps a distrust by authority of the ability of the person who has to apply the rules on the ground to do so.

G


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## peteandjay (May 1, 2005)

Actually, it's Jayne "NEWMAN" of Stroud "HILL" Park.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

peteandjay said:


> Actually, it's Jayne "NEWMAN" of Stroud "HILL" Park.


Sorry about that, must have been a senior moment.

Have you ever stayed there?

Sounds from article as if Mrs.Newman has a problem dealing with the public.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Just had a look at the site, and I must say it looks good, restaurant, toilets, bar, and all ptiches have electric, water and waste.

Charges not much worse than CC, water and waste on your pitch make it worth the extra. 

Their charges are up front, so I know I will have to pay for the toad. If we where in the area I expect we would go. She may not be nice but I am not going to see her, its the site and that looks nice.

I expect their are many more owners who would like to have a rant about the public, but just keep quiet.

Olley


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## 90136 (May 1, 2005)

A article in the Evening Echo reported
MORE road restrictions are likely to be put in Swanage this summer to stop an influx of camper vans. 
This comes a year after road traffic orders were put on several streets last year. 
The town council came up with the proposals when the police and Purbeck council started using orders to move vehicles off Ferry Road in Studland last summer. 
Holidaymakers often parked their vans there, treating the road like a caravan park.

This has happened by campers causing alleged extra litter, on the road from Sandbanks Ferry to Swanage. _Now read the ladies comments about us again and you can see she is reflecting the increase in the lack of respect for authority by young and even not so young. _


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## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

Let me state straight away I tow a Smart and we take charlie the Dog. I personally don't have a problem with being charged for these, as long as the tariffs are published so I can make a decision, no one forces me to go to a particular site in fact only yesterday I was about to book a camping pitch at a show until I found they wonted £60 plus entrance for a weekend, £60 for parking in a field without a hook up or waste disposal I thought was to much. I know others will pay last year it was fully booked.
I also have looked at http://www.stroudhillpark.co.uk/MainPages/Tariff.htm 
and it does look worth it to me. I know others on MHF would drive miles to avoid such places and thats fine to. 
To say Jane Newman was ranting, again I have to disagree some people do wont there cake and eat it. To provide the facilitys that she as, that costs considerable amount of money together with the on going maintainance, whether there is 1 paying guest or 50, perhaps some people will be happy when all the farm land is sold for housing.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

I don't have a problem with them charging for a towed car either, as long as they play fair and charge for a caravan plus car  

I do think it is unfair to charge for a dog, there seems to be no justification for it.
I used to avoid sites which charged for awnings like a plague. However having seen what they and the awning sheets do to the grass, those sites had justification but they would have fared better by having an inclusive fee to cover the extra cost of ground maintenance and so, in my view it would be with a towed car!




peedee

ps what month did the article appear in the CC mag please, I don't take MMM.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Quote from article.
"we tried to minimize the volume of traffic on site and reduce the damage that vehicles can do to a pitch. A motorhome ( particularly large motor homes)
plus car, will, more often than not, weigh more than a caravan and car".

So a 4x4 towing a tandem axel trailer weighs less that a motorhome and a Smart? Tandem axel trailers will tear up a surface more than any car or motorhome One of the reason why people have 4x4s is it impossible push a twin axels back by hand. 

further a smart going out each day will do more damage than a 4x4 ! 

Why don't I get a reduction when I just take my motorhome I am after all only one unit, not 2, ie car and caravan!


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## 88741 (May 9, 2005)

Well I did not think it a rant either, as far as I am concerned she, as owner of the site can charge what she wants for anything she so desires, and anyone who wants to stay there has the choice of wether or not to accept her charges.
The great British public can, on occasions, be a right royal pain, and to my mind to go in with all guns blazes telling someone what they can or cannot charge for is just plain bully boy tatitcs, you have no right to camp /stay on any site.
I would have thought we, as a group would have a far better chance of having a wide choice of sites to stay ay if we remember we are guests of the owner and act accordingly.To be argumentative can only lead to the small site owner deciding the aggro is just not worth the small returns.
My sympathies are with Jane Newman why should she have to put up with such a rude person on her land?


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

QUOTE
My sympathies are with Jane Newman why should she have to put up with such a rude person on her land?

She only had to explain why she thought her charge for a towed car was fair, after all it is only a small percentage of site owners that jump this band wagon, the so called rude camper was within his rights. 
Did we really need to hear 3 columns of rants about all her pet hates,?


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## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

Why should she have to explain, the charges are there for all to see if you don't agree with them don't go, it really is quite simple.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

So you don't query anything, just accept what ever what people want to charge, hope I have to bill you sometime.


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## 88741 (May 9, 2005)

As you usually pay up front at a site then I do not see a problem, don't want to pay don't stay :wink: 
As for the letter I still think she was perfectly justified. After all if you don't want to read ' 3 columns of rant ' then don't  All to often we read/see the other side of complaints in the letters pages about rude/ hitler types of wardens, but personally I have never ever in my 30 odd years of camping come across any warden who has been anything but welcoming.
And as the 'gentleman' who started the problem had come onto the site demanding that the owner of a site acted accordingly to the rules that govern a club site, which this was not, as it was only a site affiliated to the club, then all I can say is good for her, and I hope it may make people think about treating site owners with the politness and respect they deserve, or, as I said earlier a lot of the CS or CL site owners will call it a day, and that would be a great loss.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

I haven't yet seen the letter referred to, but I don't support rudeness from whatever quarter but I do support Jim on the right to complain on something you think unreasonable. On this one, it is up to the site managers/owners to convince customers that a charge for a trailer whether it be a towed car or not is reasonable if it does not take up any more room on a pitch than a car and caravan. 

Yes you have the option not to stay and you can bet your last dollar that here is one who will not be using this site and others that similarly apply these ridiculous tariffs. 

So if there are any site owners out there why are you applying these tariffs when many others are not and even if they were what is the justification? 

peedee


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

peedee said:


> So if there are any site owners out there why are you applying these tariffs when many others are not and even if they were what is the justification?
> 
> peedee


Because she can! why is posh spice charging £150.00 for a pair of £5.00 jeans with her name on it, because she can! 
Its her business she doesn't need to explain or justify why she charges what she does. If you don't like her charges don't go there.

Maybe I am wrong but the people on this site who support her stance seem to run their own business, while people who object don't.

When you run your own business it give's you a different outlook on life.

Olley


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## Ocsid (Dec 6, 2005)

What a really lovely site; from all you are telling me its very well run and well disciplined. Thank you very much for labouring so hard to bring its attributes and the attitude of its caring and diligent owner to our attention.
Certainly like the idea of visiting it next time we travel there. It will make a change to using Houghton Mill, or Ferry Meadows; at least from what you are saying we are likely to share much in common with its clientele!


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## 96783 (Nov 23, 2005)

Funny isn't it? We go into M&S and pay their food or clothes prices knowing full well that they will be more expensive than Tesco/Sainsbury and may or may not be of better quality although that's what we expect. We don't bargain with the assistant or the manager or demand that they charge the same price as Tesco etc. Why should we expect site owners all to charge the same prices? Surely the price on the ticket is the price you expect to pay. One would hope to get better quality/facilities/environment for a higher price but you don't have to buy if you're not prepared to pay the price - there's always the layby down the road!

I read Mrs Newman's original letter of complaint in the CC magazine and felt a great deal of sympathy for her. Site owners, for it is in their financial interest generally, as wardens also do their level best to give the best service they can and, while I have only met one Hitler type warden in over 30 years having a bad day, treated with courtesy they will usually respond in kind. I am sure we have all seen dog owners and parents on club and commercial sites who seem to think that site owners and wardens are paid to clean up after their offspring. Why should they have to put up with that?

Anyway, I've now had my rant - let's keep the party clean and polite and get everybody back to Marks & Sparks!


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

I think part of the problem with this site and many of the other "affiliated" CC sites is that they are marketed as CC sites, but have completely different pricing structures from the CC. Perhaps there's a perception by some members that they are booking in to a club site & then find that there are diffrences. Surely if the site owners want to benefit from the huge marketing advantage of having the site listed as a club site, then it should be made more clear that they are not CC owned / managed sites.
I think it's a bit of a fraud by the CC to have them listed in the same section in the guide as club sites - they should be separated.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

It was a *simple* question why do I have to pay extra for my car?.  Caravan + car = standard charge, surely you can see the guys logic in asking why ,when he has two units why is he being asked for more money. The site owner then embarks on telling us what she doesn't like about the public and never comes up with a plausible answer to the *original question*. 
It may be a nice site and maybe I won't fit in because I don't accept unreasonable charges, but at least I still have my my powers of reasoning.
As for the guy being rude I would take that with a pinch of salt ! from Mrs Newmans reply I would deduce that she does respond well to having her authority challenged.
All this crap about M&S prices and not having to go to that site and any others is all very well, but it is still not answering the *original question*.

Do you lot out there never rebel, do you always accept every thing?

Ps. I never go to sites that charge extra for a car on an A frame, that's why I have compile a list which can be found via the search engine.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi guzzijim there's a simple answer, its her site, she doesn't need a reason, she can charge what she like's, she could charge more for white motorhomes if she wanted, she could say no hymer's, she doesn't have to justify anything.

I am surprised that she doesn't have weight charge for RV's as this could be "justified" on the grounds that we do more damage to the access roads :lol: 

Olley


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## 96783 (Nov 23, 2005)

Thanks Olley for your simple, polite, answer to what seems to have become a severe bone of contention for Guzzijim. It was also what I was trying to say in a nice polite way but which attracted a remarkably impolite answer from Guzzijim. We all have to make choices in life but we don't have to be rude to those who choices and views differ from our own, however strongly felt.


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## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

Hi guzzijim
for me its not about acceptance, or being a rebel. For me the MH is about relaxing, enjoyment having fun meeting nice polite fellow campers, its for my pleasure. There are more important things in my life than whether or not a site owner wonts to charge me for my dog or trailer, which they have made clear to me they will if I wont to use THEIR facilitys. If I wonted to start a crusade then I could find, many other more worthy causes.

The other point is of course, you have brought to my and I suspect many others attention a site that judging by its web pages I will certainly visit.

Thankyou and I wish you well in your endeavor to bring to my attention the sites which have the ordasity to charge what they the site owners wont to.
Up the revolution.


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi all
a little off topic but relevant I hope:
Having been involved in the "hospitality" trade for a considerable time I am aware of one fact.....the site owner is the "host" ( as in "mine host") and the camper is the "guest". Both the Host and the Guest have certain responsibilities to each other.......the host to provide what he/she advertises or offers, at the charges advertised and in a way the guest approves of.......and the guest to pay the charges and then behave as you would expect a guest to behave on some one else's property. I know that campers are paying guests but most site owners suffer "the campers from hell" far too often these days....folk who think that by paying for a night they ( or the kids, or the dogs)can behave in what ever way they choose to the sufferance of not only the owner but all the rest of us.
Anyone dealing with the public in recent years will by now have realised that the atmosphere of good service getting due thanks has almost dissapeared to be replaced by a " I want it all and I want it now" attitude with little respect for the server. (or site owner)
This hassle with the present day public can "get to " a site owner who for the most part in the past used to meet friendly folk having a good time....one miserable B of a camper can foul it up for the rest. So now that there are many miserable Bs I am not surprised when occasionally one site owner sticks their head up to say their "Piece". 

Misguided she may be in charging for a towed car or trailer but all that means is that you should choose not to stay there. Just as you would if you required any other service and found that the price advertised was too high for your budget or your principles.

Mike


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi

Of course in contract law a quoted price is an 'invitation to treat' which basically means that the other side have told you the  most that they want to charge you not the least so there is nothing wrong with a little polite negotiation especially if you have something to counter offer.

That is true even about Tesco prices. Theoretically after your shopping trolley contents have been scanned and the assistant smiles at you and names Tesco's price you can make a counter offer. If you are going to try it can you invite me along ...I've never had the nerve :lol:

Frank


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Hi all
Well I have been waiting for Mike's considered input to this thread and now we have it.... I must say that the two posts above this have certainly hit the nail on the head very squarely.....
I have stayed on the site in question and found it to be extremely nice, the restaraunt is superb (although we did not partake due to Sharons cooking abilities and their prices) however it is a good site. On arrival I made a polite complaint that there were overhanging branches that had clipped the top of our Hymer and within five minutes we saw someone dispatched with a long lopper to sort out the offending branches, can't ask for more than that eh???
Would I pay for a toad? Probably not, but then I know the tarriff and I can make a choice.
We have been discussing site discounts with site owners recently and you would not believe some of the stories they tell, so maybe this lady has, as Mike said, had the nerve to say her piece and why shouldn't she?
I have attatched a couple of pictures of one of our stays so you can see how nice it is.....

Thanks

Keith


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## 88797 (May 9, 2005)

Well I completely agree with charging for a toad - have you seen the price for making a pond!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol: 

hell someone had to do it :roll: 

A


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Thanks for the pictures, I see that the site has no tarmac, so where does the bit about motohomes damaging the road surface come from?

Regards knowing the price ect. and taking it or leaving it, how do you get on when you go to say Brownhills and see a price of say £40,000 for motohome, do you just accept the price and pay!

Back to the original question, how do *you* think she can justify her charge for a car on an A frame? It's quite a simple question! I know she can charge what she likes, but answer my question. or **************


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## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

guzzijim said:


> Back to the original question, how do *you* think she can justify her charge for a car on an A frame? It's quite a simple question! I know she can charge what she likes, but answer my question. or **************


Ok I guess that is the end of the topic for me at least, clearly it is now degenerating into a rudeness competition, and you have just won.

Thank you

Keith


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

I think what your asking here guzzijim is how can she justify it to you, and the answer is she can't.

My reference to roadway damage was more of a joke, however my 8 ton RV must do more damage than a 3.5 ton european to her access roads, whether or not they are tarmac.

Olley


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Thanks Keith ,so there is no justification, from her, you or me.


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## 2point (Jun 10, 2005)

(I've read the letter in MMM btw)

I think the reply was justified.

In prices were clearly displayed and the reasoning was based on the general assumption that MH+Car > Car + Caravan. Given that the MH is likely to need to visit the service point it is logical that a MH will move about the site more than the Caravan, thus inflicting more damage.

From the tone of the original letter you don't see the full picture as he is unlikely to say that he was rude and demanding in his challenge. When faced with a confrontational customer you are unlikely to be receptive to reasoning and end up with a take o leave it answer, I'm sure this is a pretty rare occurance.

The interesting points rasied by the site owner are the booking and no-show and the apparent ignorance by stabding behind a club with rules on an affiliated site. A rant? Maybe, but probably justified as a place to respond to a poor customer.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Quote
Given that the MH is likely to need to visit the service point it is logical that a MH will move about the site more than the Caravan, thus inflicting more damage. 

Don't see the reasoning there, all out friends have aquarolls and pump to fill thier water tanks and aqua thingie for emptying the waste.We don't move our m/h once on site, not like the heavy 4x4s. From the pictures it looks as if the surface is only rough balast anyway. 
A small car must do less damage to enviroment and site!


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## 89390 (May 22, 2005)

This thread and all its bickering is WHY I WONT BE PAYING TO STAY WITH MHF.


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Looks like a new twist on the Fox and the Grapes.....not going to pay to join a discussion forum where they discuss........ :roll: 

are we off topic now :?: :?: never quite sure :lol: 


Mike


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

GOOD BYE


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Is that it now? - done to death I think; 
Once members start shouting, mods' ears prick up.  

calm down please, folks


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