# Basic campsite needs and price - help please



## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Hi all,

On my travels, I have fallen across a former campsite that is no longer used. It seems to be in an excellent location, good road links, south facing with plenty of things to do nearby, close to Edinburgh.

It has not been used as a campsite for many years, has no hard-standings (at the moment), and scope for only a few electric hookups.

I would like to open this up again, but need some feedback as to its potential in order to persuade the owner who thinks it is unlikely to make any money, as it didn't before.

So I need answers to the following (and anything else you can think of! : -

1. Price per pitch. I was thinking bronze/silver /gold as follows

Bronze, grass pitch, similar to a CL, no toilet/shower access just moho service point, no electric £8 per night

Silver as above but With toilet/shower access £10 per night

Gold hardstanding on gravel, toilet/shower access, electric,£12 per night

These prices seem reasonable to me, what do you think?

2. Are grass pitches acceptable?

3. Is EHU essential?

4. Would you use it?

The only building onsite would only be big enough for 2 shower/toilet/washbasins each for male/female/disabled. Is this enough for 40 pitches? (given that some won't have access if on a bronze pitch).

It would make a great rally location, would it be used for this?

Sorry I can't be more specific about the site, but it would give the game away to any competition!

Is this just a pipe dream?

Over to you...........

Thanks in anticipation.

David


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## dawnwynne (Nov 14, 2009)

I'm not the seasoned veteran as many here...but I would say that your gold price is perhaps a bit low considering it is hardstanding with ehu....I would think £15...which is still considerably lower than CC sites. 

My opinion is...is it in a good location...what is around it etc. that is what draws us to a site...you must also consider costs of advertising and marketing the site.

Sounds interesting though....good luck!


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## tonka (Apr 24, 2006)

I suspect it no longer has a license to operate as a campsite. If not you need to get one and here may be the first stumble.
Depending on how many pitches you request then you may be required to provide "X" number of toilet / shower facility based on the number of people able to use the site..
The toilet block needs to be available to all, maybe coin / token operated showers might be a way to go.. Free token with the better pitch ??
Grass, as you know. Great in summer but in rain...!! It would influence my choice of site..

Rallies, I dont think you could plan a business around rallies. 

Rates...!!! I dont know how much these are for campsites etc but that's a big consideration..

Good luck.. Could fill the page with thoughts and ideas, sure you will get lots more very soon!!!


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

dawnwynne said:


> I'm not the seasoned veteran as many here...but I would say that your gold price is perhaps a bit low considering it is hardstanding with ehu....I would think £15...which is still considerably lower than CC sites.
> 
> My opinion is...is it in a good location...what is around it etc. that is what draws us to a site...you must also consider costs of advertising and marketing the site.
> 
> Sounds interesting though....good luck!


Thanks Dawnwynne,

It's a good location, surrounded by things to do, historic towns and villages, beaches, walks, Edinburgh city centre only 30 minutes away.

There are some villages/small towns that are a bike ride away, but it is in a completely rural setting, not even a pub nearby (3miles to nearest!)

Thanks Tonka, all good and valid points too - I'd need to check with LA with regards to rates and licence.

I'm especially interested in whether people would use a no-frills campsite, and how basic is acceptable - there are issues over development that mean it would not be possible to build a bigger toilet/shower block.

David


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## clianthus (Jul 8, 2006)

b16duv said:


> It's a good location, surrounded by things to do, historic towns and villages, beaches, walks, Edinburgh city centre only 30 minutes away.
> 
> There are some villages/small towns that are a bike ride away, but it is in a completely rural setting, not even a pub nearby (3miles to nearest!)


Hi

I think most motorhomers will accept a basic site quite happily as long as the price is right. The prices you quote are very competitive.

When we are looking for a rally field for MHF rallies our first consideration is always is there anything to do close by, pub, food outlet, walks, bike rides etc and is there any public transport to get you to a local attraction/ town/city?

Also if it is on grass, is there a tractor to pull us out?

Obviously this is from a motorhomers point of view, a caravanner or tent camper will have a car with them as well so getting further afield is easier.

Hope this helps.


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## CaGreg (Mar 28, 2007)

The first thing that occurred to me is how would you prevent those with bronze priced pitches from just using the facilities? You can hardly stand outside all day and night. So maybe a different system might be needed.

In France, we used a Camper Accuieil scheme which allowed us to stay on the site, overnight, use the washing, showers,loos etc but the time was limited to 6pm until 10am and no hookup. This cost nine euro. Grass pitches are just a pain. 

Ca


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## Hezbez (Feb 7, 2009)

Hi David,

I like no frills sites. 
I don't like paying for facilities I don't need - EHU and toliet block.

I do like hard standing though - don't want to get stuck on a grass pitch.
Having said that - grass is fine if it is well draining ground.

Looking at the prices your thinking of I'd be happy to pay £12 for a gold pitch.

Ohhh, I'm all excited for you! 
We'll be one of your first customers if you get it up and running.

Maybe's we could have a wee MHF rally at it!


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## Hezbez (Feb 7, 2009)

Another thought - with the economy the way it is there are a lot more people buying caravans and motorhome and holidaying at home.

So I think now is a prime time to be getting into the campsite business.

Popularity is soaring and when you try to book sites many are often full, so the demand is there.


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Thanks Jenny, Ca and Morag.

The ground is on a slight slope, so drains quite well and the exit from the pitches would be downhill.

I would be looking to put in hard-standing pitches in time as Iknow this is an issue. 

Jenny, the attractions you mention are all close by, certainly cycling distance, and there is a bus service that goes past the main entrance to the site. There is a big Tesco 5 miles away, and loads of cycling opportunities. The walk back from the pub is all downhill too! (but about 3 miles)

Keep the comments coming (even if you think I'm barking!)

David


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

If i turn up on a site in Summer I dont mind parking on grass but wet winter weather I like to see a hardcore hard stand.
I dont always need hook up. but if its there at least 10amps
If there is a shower block I like a heater in it and a clean shower and a hairdryer or a plug to use my own.
A clean Elsan point.
Dogs allowed
Lighting at night around the site.
Free Wifi or a descent price.
I do like a shop near by.
A Pub or even a Takeaway.
A bus service 
A walkway outside with a path.
Local Infomation (lots of leaflets)

Your prices are great but I think MHF's should have a discount :lol: :lol: 
Good luck Dave


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## MyGalSal (Dec 8, 2008)

Sounds interesting. Go for the simpler version!
My favourite site in the Lakes is no frills and it is very popular and often full (Low Manesty, Derwentwater). It does, however, have EHU and perhaps for some that is a draw but SO many people, me included, don't want EHU but have to pay for it.
Simplicity is longed for and we can't always get it. I used to love the 'higgedly-piggedly' camping sites where you put your tent wherever you found a space. I dislike being lined up like soldiers on parade, all neat and tidy. I was even told at one CC site which way to face because my habitation door 'faced the wrong way'.
Grass surfaces are always so much nicer to park on but can get boggy in our wonderful climate - how about a half-way house like the surface at the Caravan Salon at Dusseldorf which has a sort of concrete mesh-like brick which gives a firm standing but allows grass to grow through it?
I think toilet blocks for only some would be complicated, would not work and would be a major headache. Why provide at all?
As long as there is fresh water and waste disposal, fairly close access to cycle tracks and/or public transport and you can hear the birds singing - you've got a winner!
Sal
Edit: I so hate it when people don't answer specific questions and I didn't answer yours David....
2. Are grass pitches acceptable? _Very much so and much preferred_.

3. Is EHU essential? _Absolutely not._
4. Would you use it? _Very much yes if it is simple and not EHU. Love Edinburgh_.

The only building onsite would only be big enough for 2 shower/toilet/washbasins each for male/female/disabled. Is this enough for 40 pitches? (given that some won't have access if on a bronze pitch). _You don't need toilet facilities. _


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## carolgavin (May 9, 2005)

Hi dave the coo or is it carrot canny mind!

I would like no straight lines as well, EHU and clean toilets that don't close from 10-12.30 to clean em. 
Would like a wee fenced area to exercise doggies off lead similar to what they had at Conkers. Clean loos and showers, none of that black mould stuff which is all too common.......yuck!

When can I come????????


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## AndrewandShirley (Oct 13, 2007)

With regard to toilets, showers etc, the recommended norm for the Uk is as follows:

Toilets 1:10 pitches
Washbasins 1:10 pitches
Showers 1:20 pitches

Obviously some are higher and others lower than this but this should act as a god guide.


What about site access? Can you take (or want to take) large RV's?

Do not forget fire well signposted precautions.


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## philsil (Jul 24, 2007)

Sounds a great opportunity. 

I'm guessing here but there is financial support from local tourism and grants available to have solar heating and reed bed type loos.

A good basic site will be popular but will the £ return cover the costs and your beer vouchers. 

When I had a pub my accountant asked me if I was in it for my health or my wealth. A fundamental question.

( BTW from that question we sold the pub bought, a motorhome and retired.)


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## Hezbez (Feb 7, 2009)

Would you open for a long season or stick to the Easter to October season?

How would you feel about not getting away much in your own motorhome if you are tied to working at the site (or maybe you'd employ someone)?


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

The idea sounds great but let me pour a few buckets of cold water on by playing Devil's Advocate.......

1. the pricing is OK, although £12 is probably less than expected,

2. we would use hard standings whenever the weather threatens having been bogged in before now, due to heavy rain after we had parked and the grass becoming very soft and squelchy, sadly the weather recently has not allowed much grass use for us in UK,

3. we use EHU, although not always, much more so in winter (i.e. 1st September to 31st August! :lol: )

4. what occupancy would you expect? Most sites seem to be busy during "the season" but can be deserted mid-week and November - April, this obviously has to be factored into price charged during "season",

5. easy grey emptying points make return visits more likely - the one at Cornish Farm is superb in my opinion,

6. toilets for all pitches would probably be a pre-requisite for a licence, it would be impossible to limit their use, there are even times when well equipped MH users might have one person in supplied toilets whilst other may be esconced in MH unit (for shower?),

7. we prefer NOT to have site lights on at night - light pollution reduces night vision and can be annoying, it is very pleasant in warm evenings to sit outside and simply watch and listen to the surroundings,

8. the role of the warden is crucial - as is the welcome one receives - there are numerous threads about over-zealous or jobsworth wardens and the pleasure of a real welcome,

9. access and advertising may add considerably to operating costs if you have to enlarge openings, widen roads and the like - and the site needs to be easily found yet still in a rural area IMO (those are conflicting ideas in some instances),

10. an easily located and user friendly web-site is essential - although word of mouth is by far the best recommendation that exists!

11. how likely are you to get the licence to re-open? Have you talked to the LA to see if there were reasons why the site shut? Are the near neighbours OK with the concept or could there be conflict there? Worth some gentle investigation before you go too far IMO.

Sorry if these seem very negative - the idea is great and suitable sites are needed, but the potential financial burden must be large if hard-standings, EHU, restored/renovated/update toilet block / showers are required. The cost of heating for the shower block is also potentially very high - what fuel sources would be available in the area? Oil is expensive and needs frequent servicing, most sites seem to use LPG to heat water - this is also not a cheap fuel but mains gas is often not available, electricity is expensive for heating and may not be as versatile if needed to e.g. turn up as the weather has turned cold (as happens in Scotland I believe! :lol: ) - storage systems have a built in time delay although an electric boiler is available to heat water and buildings through a MASSIVE stored hot water reservoir.

So lots of points that you may want to consider..... but we could well be interested in visiting when we get up there (long way from Devon! :? )

Hope this gives you some thoughts and that you can reassure yourself that you have overcome all of these points! Best wishes,

Dave


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Gosh, I go to watch a programme about old lorries, and come back to all these replies!

Mavis I like your style! Your pitch will have its own heated loo/shower and 100 amp hookup!

Sal, there will be NO warders, just me and I can be bribed with beer! Great point about the concrete strips like Dusseldorf too, must look into that.

Carol, you can use Mavis' pitch as long as you don't tell her. And if the toilets not left clean, you'll know who to blame!

Andrew and Shirley, the site access would certainly accommodate RV's, but not sure about whether the ground would! The site has been derelict for many years (I've passed by there every week for 15 years and it hasn't been used in that time). There will be a special deal for discerning Niesmann Bischoff owners obviously.

Thanks for the info on toilet/shower ratios. I think we could cope at that level.

Philsil, I take the point about viability, but it would be part of a larger operation, so if it could wash its face, would be fine. I've done the high pressure chasing the big bucks thing (being 21 stone, never managed to catch many), so am not averse to a wee lifestyle business.

Morag, i think an extended season would be viable eventually, once the hard standings were in.

Not getting away could be a major issue - was that a job application?


Thanks all for the very constructive comments, and apologies if I've missed thanking anyone. 

Hopefully, there will be demand for a no-frills site and I can convince the owner to commit to a lease. 

Should I do a poll to see what the membership here thinks about a no-frills site?

Thanks all,

David


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Dave,

Devils advocacy is exactly what I'm looking for (its cheaper than the other kind!) and your points are well made.

As far as point 9 goes, access is excellent, but I don't know about the licence situation. I assume the LA would be the local council? May be a problem there as they have a council-run site in the area that I believe is under-utilised (cos it's got poor access and is entirely surrounded by tall dense trees), so they may not like the competition!

Heating would need to be oil or lpg as there is no supply of mains gas, but the toilet block would be very small, so require less heating. It never gets really cold here anyway 

:lol: 

It's all food for thought, and the idea is in its infancy.

The more positive statements from members about their willingness to use such a facility will help to convince the owner 
that its viable. The land is currently on an agricultural grazing let, so i'm sure i could offer a better return than they get from that. It's only about 5 acres or thereby.


Thanks 

David


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## val33 (Jun 29, 2008)

We love no frills. We use only the 'Forest Holidays' sites (while in the UK), mostly in the New Forest. Most of them have no EHU, many have no toilets or showers, non of them have traditional hardstanding and they all have a 'pitch where you like' policy. The only rule is that you must be a minimum of 20 feet from your nearest neighbour. 

They are very popular, those with toilets and showers are often full through the main season. However, the non equipped sites are very cheap. We paid just under £5 a night at 'Dennys Wood' last week! That did include members and over 50's discount.

HTH

Val


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

Hi David

Interesting idea. One thing that comes to mind is that, as a commercial venture, you *need[/i] to accommodate caravans, and as such, EHU may well be essential on every pitch. Despite encouragement on here, I feel that a site which appeals more to motorhomes may well not be viable.

Having said that, hardstanding pitches without hookup (at a reduced price) would be very welcome, especially by people like us who can survive without hookup.

As others have said, restricting the use of facilities is a no-no, IMO.

Looking back at the posts, there is a definite market for Gold pitches (with hookup and maybe on-pitch fresh / grey water), suitable for tuggers, and Silver pitches (no hookup, perhaps fresh water at a distance, and a motorhome grey water dump point on the site somewhere).

If it's a go-er, and you need advice / help marketing (on and off-line), let me know :wink:

Gerald*


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## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

Hi David,

I am not an expert on the economics of campsites, but the following thoughts struck me:

1. Location, location, location .. if this one is in the wrong location don't even bother. How strong are digital TV and cellphone signals? Does it flood? Does it have scenic views? Are there popular local attractions - Edinburgh sounds too far away to cycle? 

2. A "basic" campsite with little more than hardstandings will only attract the self-contained MHers who will pay lowest pitch fees, so the market for customers becomes very limited. So will be the profit potential. You will be competing against CLs rather than other proper campsites. The upside is that they are a potential all-year-round market. 

3. A really spiffy modern heated shower / toilet block with washing-up facilities will appeal to the tuggers and tenters as well as VW campervanners. They outnumber the self-contained MHers, several times. Don't exclude that market. The downside is that they are a seasonal market.

4. EHU is a must for everyone except the self-contained MHers. Even tenters want Whether you also offer pitches without hook-up is a difficult question but see also point 6 below. 

5. A well-designed MH drive-over disposal point would be an advantage.

6. Five acres is not a lot - what is the ideal size for a campsite, with regards to number of pitches, staff / pitch ratio, optimum space utilisation and layout, overhead recovery, etc? 

7. My impression is that the campsite business that makes the biggest money nowadays is not touring pitches but static mobile homes / lodges. I don't know much about it but that clientele also seems to want clubhouses, bar + restaurants, play areas, swimming pools etc. A 5 acre site could be too small to suit this type of business. 

8. Not wishing to teach you to suck eggs, you need to do some proper market research; that goes without saying (almost!) and MHF may not give you a representative sample.


SD


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## dovtrams (Aug 18, 2009)

David

Sounds a great idea and good luck with it, is there a prize of a free night for guessing the location?

Dave


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

dovtrams said:


> David
> 
> Sounds a great idea and good luck with it, is there a prize of a free night for guessing the location?
> 
> Dave


If you have guessed, please don't let the cat out of the bag just yet!

David


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