# MH Parking England v France



## Borisd0 (Jan 3, 2006)

MH Parking: England v France
We have recently returned from a month in France. Virtually everywhere we visited provision was made for MH parking and the sign posting was good.

We have just had an 8 day trip to East Anglia. 

First day out. 

Lavenham, Suffolk.
Broke 3 regulations,
•	No caravans
•	No vehicle over 1.5 tons
•	Park only in marked spaces, (not possible MH 6.5m x 2.3m).
•	If we'd boiled a kettle a fourth reg. broken.
Sunday so we stayed two hours and made a get away before a £45 fine was imposed.

Dedham, Essex. 
There were two areas of the car park.
•	Cars, via 2.3m height barrier.
•	Coaches, via notice stating other vehicles would be towed away.

Both car parks were free for what it's worth. 

Score ENGLAND 0 FRANCE 8

They really don't want us to spend money in their towns do they?

Our continental visitors must be really surprised with our welcome.


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## UncleNorm (May 1, 2005)

Hi Borisd0! Your post is so true! The councils just don't want to know!

No, that's not quite right. I don't think many UK/GB councils employ planners with VISION. That's it! They have no VISION!

Instead of making arrangements to attract visitors to their area, they seem to prefer shunning them. "Go away! We don't want you!"

It is all so short-sighted. That's why Briarose is worried. Have you read that post...

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-48579-days0-orderasc-0.html

I'm sure you've read letters in various mags, CC, MMM... where council officers have stated clearly that we Motorhomers are not wanted. After all, we bring our own accommodation; we bring our own food; we have Sat TV so don't use theatres or cinemas...

The reasoning of so many council officers in this country is so far off beam, it beggars belief! It's unlikely that such officers own a MH so they cannot understand our needs.

When Auntie Sandra and I leave home in Our Coral, we shall be looking for supermarkets, fuel stations, restaurants, entertainment, activities... We are prepared to contribute a small fortune to a town's local economy.

In France, quite the opposite happens. We've been attracted to towns which have entertainment on street corners (Sarlat). We were among the 900 music lovers who enjoyed a concert in the Rose Gardens in Bourges, admission FREE. At 11.45 PM, the bars and restaurants were still so busy. Good move whoever had the VISION to organise that concert.

In June, of course, we joined some of our MHF friends at Amboise, on the Loire, for the Brass Band weekend. The town was heaving. The sun shone and the bands played on. We enjoyed tea and icecream; we shopped at the little Marche Plus; we visited the chateau and had refreshment there...

And so it goes on... So they want to close Jubilee Park in Woodhall Spa. Yep! Short-sighted. Don't visit Cleethorpes either if you are likely to need the loo. They will be closed! (To save money!)

It seems the French like to SERVE their visitors , as do the Americans but that's another chapter. The sooner we get the notion of SERVICE back into the vocabulary of our councils the better!

Bloody hell Boris. Look what you've made me do! Rant over!! Can't wait until next we visit France next year!


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

Hi, UncleNorm

Wise words, methinks. It only takes one local council to turn this round, to actually welcome motorhome users and provide minimal facilities (decent sized parking spaces with no height barriers would be a start). The wave of positive publicity would ensure their success.



UncleNorm said:


> Can't wait until next we visit France next year!


That's right, Norman - have a good rant. I'll say hello to France for you in a couple of weeks' time :wink:

Gerald


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## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

Yep, a totally different attitude in France to tourists. About 3 years ago (pre-motorhome days) my wife and I went touring on our motorbikes. We happened to stop at the municipal site at Troyes when there was a music festival in the town. There was something on every street corner and more, and the place was packed but extremely enjoyable. All free and the cafes and restaurants were doing a roaring trade.

Then later we stopped at a site in a little town when we were heading back north. We happened to go out into town on Brenda's bike which is a crusier (Harley style) and we must have been spotted at some point because when we got back to camp the site owner and a local councillor actually sought us out to ask if we were going to visit their Country Music Festival which was to be held the next day. We were given free tickets, interviewed and pictured for the local paper and invited to join the motorcycle calvacade which signalled the opening of the Festival.

I can't for the life of me see that happening over here. It's the kind of thing that makes you want to go back and visit them again though isn't it?

JohnW


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## 107088 (Sep 18, 2007)

Wizzo said:


> Yep, a totally different attitude in France to tourists. About 3 years ago (pre-motorhome days) my wife and I went touring on our motorbikes. We happened to stop at the municipal site at Troyes when there was a music festival in the town. There was something on every street corner and more, and the place was packed but extremely enjoyable. All free and the cafes and restaurants were doing a roaring trade.
> 
> Then later we stopped at a site in a little town when we were heading back north. We happened to go out into town on Brenda's bike which is a crusier (Harley style) and we must have been spotted at some point because when we got back to camp the site owner and a local councillor actually sought us out to ask if we were going to visit their Country Music Festival which was to be held the next day. We were given free tickets, interviewed and pictured for the local paper and invited to join the motorcycle calvacade which signalled the opening of the Festival.
> 
> ...


Its not so long ago, that you'd have been tarred, feathered and run out of town in the UK........

The tourist industry in the Uk is bizarre. I cant honestly think of a reason why anyone would want to go on holiday in the UK; its overpriced, under invested, and all the tourist places seem to think they're doing you a favour by allowing you to stay in/on their property and take your money.

Go over the channel and its like a different world, pleasant, well priced, well thought of, welcoming ( predominantly) places to go, and the people running the councils/sites/hotels actually recognise that you are their livelihood.


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## 101578 (Oct 28, 2006)

I have to agree with Bandaid.If we are part of the E.U. then why can't we join in with other countries tourisism standards? Or are we just too over crowded and over priced? We went to France for the first time a couple of months ago and every aire we stayed on we were amazed at just how easy it it is to provide M/Homers with what they need.basically a sevice point and barrier,is it too much to ask over here??


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

Leaky said:


> I just how easy it it is to provide M/Homers with what they need.basically a sevice point and barrier,is it too much to ask over here??


Exactly. Most of us would be quite happy with a corner to actually park without hassle. Some towns do do it - Alnwick, Canterbury, Oxford to name three. A member of this site runs an excellent UK stopping places guide and asks for contributions but I can't remember the URL.

So conditioned are we to being unwelcome that even when we park next to the "Welcome Camping Cars" signs in Europe I still look to right and left and feel vaguely uncomfortable, as if someone is going to come along and turn us off.

How hard would it be to cordon off a corner of a car park and make it designated motorhome parking ? No. silly me, I forgot, if they did it would be full of long term travellers in minutes. You see them all the time queuing to get into the car parks don't you ?

G 

This is the site:

http://www.motorhomeparking.co.uk/


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## 107088 (Sep 18, 2007)

theres a very simple way of providing "Aires" in the UK. Most of the the towns have a tourist information office, and trip to one, and the issue of a smart card would allow access into a barrier'd parking area for a limited time period.

Of course, it would take the heresey of investment in the automated barrier to be installed, but if the council charged say a couple of quid per stay, then some of the cost would be recovered, and go towards payment of the upkeep.

to make a reasonable short stay all I would need is

Water, a drain for grey water, and luxury would also include a disposal point.

I'd pay a couple of quid per night for this, actually, given the rarity of the beast, I'd happily stump up a fiver.


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## 101578 (Oct 28, 2006)

Grizzly, Bandaid,we stayed on one aire it had a barrier we hadn't the foggiest how to use it...we sussed it on way out.It had an intercom too for assistance in a little phone booth,you pressed a button the barrier came up, you got a ticket.On the way out you paid for the time you stayed.It also had a couple of service points..(luxury!!)
So i suppose that creating jobs (council/local community warden)by providing these facillities here in this country, would be too much to ask :? As Grizzly pointed out we also would gladly pay.


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## 107088 (Sep 18, 2007)

I havent been on holiday in the motorhome, not yet anyway, but just out of curiosity, I compared the price of a 2 week jaunt to the charante region in France with a couple of weeks in the UK.


Commercial sites in both the UK and France, with similar facilities, the cost of fuel, tunnel, insurances and everything else, same dates.......difference was....................£ 40.00 in favour of the UK.

Which, is very bad, given that without the tunnel fare, which was, ( surprisingly) only £ 134.00 return, meant that the French holiday was about 90 quid cheaper, and of course, with my Rv, I have to ensure that the breakdown recovery is capable of low loading 13.25 tonnes, so more epensive than the Uk as well.


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## badger (May 9, 2005)

Well.......I'm in 2 minds about this....and so am I... 8O 

On the one hand it's great idea that...as you say...will favour the local areas due to the influx of tourist money.
and it would be really handy for Us motorhomers. 

it would obviously have to be in "touristy|" areas as I cant see it working if there was one in Tipton for example.

However........I hear time and again on this site about motormomers, "doing a 3 week tour and it only cost me 12euro in site fees" I have seen motorhomers stay on a site, stay in and around their van, and depart next morning. (not a lot of spending going on there.)

I'm not for or against you understand, just trying to understand the mathematics....(never my best subject) 

The councils in my humble opinion, would be saying that there are sufficient camp sites in the area and wouldn't want to take business away from them.

The camp site owners would also be objecting. and thinking about it, providing all that land, security barriers, waste dumps, water etc and the maintenance that that would entail, I think you would need a lot of motorhomes using it to warrant that expense, and of course the local council tax payers comment would be?.......... :roll: .


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## 107088 (Sep 18, 2007)

Dunno Badger, I take your points,...... but if it works in France, Germany and, it seems, everywhere else in Europe, then why not here? What makes the Uk so unique.

Unless its because you can do the length of the Uk in a sinlge day, ....having said that, top to bottom of France doesnt take more than a hard days drive.


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## zulurita (May 9, 2005)

I for one agree that France is better than the UK in welcoming us motorhomers. We usually spend money wherever we stop overnight especially if the Aires are free.

We do not tour in England very much but this summer decided to do some Auto-Trail rallies.

So we left Chelston motorhomes (where we had some work done) last Wed.

We stopped at a small CC CL site at Kiddlington, Oxon. this was pleasant enough next to the pub. However we couldn't find the water tap so had to ask next morning and then didn't bother as we wanted to get under way.

We did not see any dumping facilities for waste water or chemical toilet! We had paid our £5 on arrival but noone shwed us anything or informed us of anything.

We attended the rally at Lakeside Caravan site at Denver, near the Mill and also near Downham Market.

The campsite was very nice and had fishing lakes. However there was NO dumping facilities other than a Elsan Point! So not very easy lifting water containers etc. Why oh why do these campsites not have proper dumping facilities?

We went to the Sluice about 2 miles down the road where there is a public car park, BUT there is a height barrier. It would have been nice to walk and cycle from here! A pub further along the road by the river had a car park with height barriers as well!! So tourism in this country and that area of Norfolk is just for the few with cars!! not motorhomes.

Roll on Sept when we will be back in France. We have another 6 weeks touring in these parts, next rally at Thirsk from tomorrow and ending at Kirkby Lonsdale for our last rally. How many more places will we find that do not allow our motorhome??


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi,

being German, but having travelled many other countries, including France and UK, this is quite an interesting discussion for me.

Yes, it is true that Germany and France have a large network of motorhome stopover sites and sanitary stations. Now I don't know exactly for France, but in Germany this is mainly the result of the efforts of countless, enthusiastic _individuals_, often passionate motorhomers by themselves. And many "stellplatz" projects have been challenged, some even stopped, usually by local campsite owners. And this still happens today. Especially at the most important touristic honeypots the attitude "Motorhomes are welcome; but only on one of our camp sites!" is still rather common. For instance in Munich, the only city in Germany having more than a million inhabitants but no MH stopover site.

Admittedly, the United Kingdom is not one of the favourite destinations for German tourists. Many still think that people there drive on the wrong side of the road, always wear bowler hats, and exercise strange sports with incomprehensible rules. And that food is bad, beer is expensive and served luke-warm, and it only stops raining when it gets foggy. :wink: :lol:

Those that know better, because they have been there, like me, have however made the experience that they were very welcome. Here, however, we are talking about common people, not councillors.

So what makes UK councillors different from their continental colleagues? In my opinion this can be subsumed in one word: Anxiety!

_What if we allow motorhomes to overnight, and one of them catches fire? Am I somehow responsible?

What if campsite owners blame me for their financial losses?

What if travellers occupy the site?

What if..._

The only thing I do not know is why UK councillors seem to be more anxious. Has it maybe something to do with the legal system (common law vs. civil law)? I simply don't know.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

By and large when we visit a town or city we have tea or coffee there, sometimes lunch and often do some shopping. We visit a museum or gallery and buy some food for later. I reckon we spend as much as people who visit with their car.

We're happy to pay car park fees and even to walk in to the centre from a long stay car park or use a park and ride.

What we don't like is having to go around all day feeling twitchy because we're not 100% sure we're legally parked or having to drive round and round to find somewhere we can leave the van at all.

As I said before , it's not hard to provide a small dedicated area of a car park for MHs even if - like the one at Redbridge Park and Ride in Oxford- you have to go to the office to get someone to lift the barrier for you.

G


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## ubuntu1 (Jan 14, 2008)

*grrr*

It really makes me angry. You drive to a town with a pocket full of money and then you can't park because of the stupid height barriers. If you find somewhere to park you have the local parking authority just looking for a reason to fine you - I was fined for overhanging a parking bay in a car park with at least 50 spare spaces.

I've just come back from France and its a delight to go there, such a different attitude. It certainly persuaded me to spend my Euro's in the towns and villages.

Come on Britain lets sort this out. We must seem to be very unwelcoming to our overseas visitors who can't park, can't get in a camp site because they are all full and can't find anywhere to empty the tanks or get fresh water.


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## andyangyh (May 1, 2005)

I did an article for Motor Caravan Magazine a few years back when I interviewed some mayors/tourist officials in France and some in England about aires. The difference in attitude was amazing. The major fears from the English were:-

1) Travellers
2) Being sued

I did suggest several ways of getting round the first problem - barrier tokens from local shops/pubs/tourist info offices etc. - (and you'd think that anything that brought people into your shop would be welcomed wouldn't you?) but I got the feeling that the "traveller objection" wasn't the real reason. Nope - all those ads with some woman falling over on a wet floor and saying how much compensation she'd got obviously had a big impact. Everyone is terrified of being sued nowadays. We have removed the trampolines on our site after being told by our insurers that any claim (even if thrown out of court) against us from a child falling from them would result in a tripling of our Public Liability Insurance.

The French officials couldn't see these problems. Travellers (les intinerantes) are catered for in France with lots of official traveller's sites on the outskirts of towns - usually near industrial estates. A lot of the white vans towing Hobby caravans with satellite dishes on the roof (why do they leave them up???) are workers who pick grapes/fruit etc during the season and are accomodated on the vineyards etc and only use the traveller's sites in winter. The police also have a more "robust" approach to those travellers who do park on aires.

The French also don't understand the concept of suing someone else for the results of your own lack of concentration or stupidity. You don't see the "Had an accident and want to get some money from it?" ads on French TV. "Fallen over a loose paving stone and broken your leg? Should have looked where you were going!" sums up the French approach.

I was also given lots of figures that showed that motorhomers tend to be older couples with high disposable incomes who spend (if memory serves me right) an average of £30 per night's stay per van. If you think that's high, count in a visit to the boulangerie (for pain au chocolat, croissants etc) a few litres of diesel, a bottle of wine etc. Near our French house is the aire at Charroux. You get tokens for the borne from local shops and bars. Almost everyone who buys a token also has a drink or a meal in the bar or buys something in the shop they get their token from. This is the one concept that the French seem to have grasped that the Brits can't. Providing facilities - even if it is just somewhere to park during the day - brings business in.

To be fair to our councillors etc. (if I must!) the French are surrounded by thousands of examples of towns and villages providing facilities whereas any council doing that in this country is swimming against the tide and that can be a scary position to be in if you don't understand the benefits accruing from your actions. In other words, a French mayor NOT providing facilities for motorhomes will find the local traders protesting that he isn't attracting business to the town. He will also be encouraged by the various camping organisations. Back here in the UK the Caravan Club actively discourages its members from using aires and stellplatz with vague scare stories.Not going to encourage your average councillor to stick his head above the parapet is it?

So, don't waste your energy campaigning for ares etc in Britain - it isn't going to happen. Reward those who really want your custom and take the ferry across La Manche


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Regarding:

1) travellers, 
2) fear of being sued, and 
3) motorhomers spending

FWIW I think with 1) you hit the nail on the head with "The police also have a more "robust" approach to those travellers who do park on aires." Basically, the French police seem more ready to implement the law in favour of the public at large, rather than the more PC offender-friendly pose in the UK. 

2) doesn't seem a big issue to me

3) I'd say the French pay more than the Brits. Just think of restaurants, cafes and pubs. UK wins on pubs, but the UK motorhomer does have a wierd affection for the motorhome kitchen to have the functionality of the one at home. So I reckon UK motorhomes, on the whole, are more cheapskates than the French.

Dave


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## andyangyh (May 1, 2005)

I agree that we Brits aren't quite as free-spending as our continental cousins (the French figures included the phrase "...such as a bottle of local wine and a visit to a chateau or vineyard"!) but surely any business is better than none?

As for the "no win no fee" suing problem - every council/tourism person I spoke to in the UK (and I spoke to a lot) brought up the "what if someone sued us?" argument. "What if they injured themselves while staying on the aire?" (???? Surely that would apply to carparks too?) "What if they electrocuted themselves?" (?????). Trust me - most councils are running scared of the LawyersRUs crowd so it's easier to do nothing than do something novel and, to their way of thinking, un-necessary. When researching the article I was e.mailed by no less than three "Risk Assessment Managers" from local councils. Did you know that *your* council probably has someone whose full-time job is to assess the risks inherent in any council activity so that they can prevent losses from law suits? Do you find this reassuring or just plain worrying?

As an aside - Am I the only one that screams, "Look where you're going, you dozy cow!" at the screen every time that advert with the woman wearing high heels walking across a polished floor comes on in the commercial break?

A small plug for Lyme Regis whose Tourist Information Office is very helpful when suggesting where to park when visiting the town. Still not quite in the same league as their French equivalent in Exideuille who filled our water tank from the tap in their staff room when the water tap on the aire was frozen.


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## 107088 (Sep 18, 2007)

DABurleigh said:


> Regarding:
> 
> 1) travellers,
> 2) fear of being sued, and
> ...


DAB, actually I agree with your first point.
on the issue of litigation, I can see the point, my public liability and professional insurances are esential in the UK. When I take the vehicle working in europe, I see ( admittedly in Racing Circuits mostly) signs proclaiming a point like ....you're a grown up, take a grown ups care...

On point 3, I wonder if the presumed issue of eating in and loving the kitchen is a historical one, wherein we, as Brits have been overcharged so often, for so long and also for mediocre food in pubs and restaurants, this attitude takes a while to adjust. Maybe the general cost of living in the Continent is lower than in the UK.....what I mean is, if you look at the way people in Europe spend their money and compare it with the UK, theres a much greater proportion of monthly pay spent on housing than in Europe, thi gives a greater amount of disposable income than in Britiain. Which is why so many Brits move to Europe to live.


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## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

My 2d worth:

In the UK, local councillors are vote-hounds - politicos with a burning desire to be re-elected. Only residents on the electoral roll can vote in local elections. Businesses who might beneft from increased spending by more visitors don't have votes. Motorhomers are generally on the electoral roll somewhere else. 

There aren't any extra votes in providing facilities for motorhomes. Sites for travellers are a political hot potato anyway. If you create an Aire you are likely to see it turned into a traveller camp - then you have bad publicity and the Council has to get a court order for eviction (subject of course to Human Rights Act challenges) and after paying for bailiffs and clean-up costs as well, the Council will wish it hadn't. 

On the other hand there are plenty of local residents (on the electoral roll, of course) too ready to complain about motorhomes spoiling their view, causing congestion, leaving rubbish etc. Easy for the public to confuse motohomers with travellers, especially due to some inconsiderate and thoughtless motorhomers who cause a bit of a nuisance when they park up.

I think in France the real power lies with the Maire of the Commune who tends to be interested in the prosperity of the local "commercants" and listens to the Chamber of Commerce because the members can have some influence on the next mayoral election. French Mayors who are also Camping Cariste are not uncommon. Grande difference, non? 

It isn't all rosy in France though. Reading the French MH magazines shows that there are towns especially in popular coastal holiday areas that impose restrictions on Camping Cars overnighting and put in height barriers. This seems to be an unfortunate trend. 

SD


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

I have to add that the MH parking at the Redbridge P&R in Oxford is woefully under-used so any local council asking Oxford CC if it is worth providing is not going to get a positive answer. We look each time we pass and it is an occasion when there is a van there.

It could not be more convenient to use or to find, is cheap, there are P&R and local buses every 3 or 4 minutes to the city centre from outside it - 24/7- and it does not involve driving through Oxford ( nightmare!) as it is off the A34 and the bypass.

Oxford itself has the odd interesting sight to see too !

G


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Grizzly - Redbridge Oxford

but where are the signs to it? And where does it say to go to the office & get the key? Not there when i was last there.  It just looked like a locked up area that nobody could get in to.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

bognormike said:


> Grizzly - Redbridge Oxford
> 
> but where are the signs to it? And where does it say to go to the office & get the key? Not there when i was last there.  It just looked like a locked up area that nobody could get in to.


Excellent points Mike. We don't use it ourselves but I have made the remark several times as to how strangers know how to get into the compound. It's a fair walk to the car park entrance. The only reason I know that access has to be requested is because the council answered a letter from Geoff of the Motorhome Parking website.

I shall put your points to those in charge forthwith !!

G


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

We may be at the CCC site at the weekend for a family visit, so will have a look at the area.

now back on topic  :roll: :wink:


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## drcotts (Feb 23, 2006)

Even when you do find a place to park for the night here in UK chances are you will encounter a gang of so ans so,s having a burn up in a car or bike making a row with th radio turned up full volume.

In my last 2 weeks in france staying exclusively on aires we had no trouble whatsoever. The one time a crowd of youths walked through the aire in Cancale the wife was greeted with a "Bonjour madam" as they walked past.

We know most places to park in the uk as we have done UK exclusively for the past 20yrs and only started going abroad this year.

We should have done it years ago..if my first experiences are anything to go on.


Just booked eurotunnel again for end oct for a few days ...
Phill


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