# Hiring a "A" Frame to tow a Aixam Home



## Enodreven (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi, 

Does anyone know where i can hire a "A" Frame to tow a small towing car home, I live in Leigh On Sea Essex and the car if i purchase it is in Birmingham

Brian


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Brian, I think the better option would be to hire a trailer, most 'A' frame attachments are custom designed to fit the vehicle front.

Regards M&D :wink:


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Brian 

Been searching but found nothing, as a matter of interest how do you intend to tow behind the motorhome ?


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## Enodreven (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi, Jim

The same as you with the "2CV" I think, with a "A" frame but if i do buy the Aixam i will proberbly have to pick it up quickly, so i thought i would try to hire one until i get it all sorted ? 

While i may take M&D advice and hire a trailer to pick it up, i definitely won't use a trailer for towing, as most of the sites i have used so far you just couldn't get the MH, Car and a Trailer on the pitch.

I have looked at the "A" frames that are partly built into the vehicle and while they look good, they are nearly as much as the secondhand vehicle itself ? and at the end of the day they still only connect with an "A" type frame. Albeit some of them apparently are connected to the cars brakes but i would like to know how affective they are as without the engine running on most newish cars the brakes only just about work without the servo.

I am not sure if your 2CV or the Aixam have servo brakes ? but from what i can understand the Aixam, Ligier and now i assume the 2CV are OK to tow with a "A" frame un-braked because they are very light-weight ? well under the 750kg

Brian


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Brian 

2CV is 450kg kerb weight, not sure on the GVW., it doesn't have servo brakes .. 
I agree about the trailer, I'm definitely getting an A frame. 

I looked at the Axiam, lovely little car, good choice, ideal for a toad, if I had been spending a few more £k I would have bought one. 

Let us know how you get on..


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## Enodreven (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi, Does anyone know where i can hire a trailer for a day and how much they cost

Brian


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Again ..

Would it not be cheaper just to get the train ? 
I went to Exeter by train to pick up the 2CV. I got an advanced booking online for £36 ..


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## whistlinggypsy (May 1, 2005)

to be fully legal (if that is possible) to tow any car regardless of weight it must conform the use of trailer regulations which clearly say that if a trailer is manufactured with a braking system they must work when being towed


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## Enodreven (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi, I thought that only applied if the weight was over 750kg. 

And Jim, i am not sure if it is road legal i think i have got to do some work on it, that the reason for the "A" frame or trailer

Brian


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## whistlinggypsy (May 1, 2005)

*hiring a A frame*

The following report was set down in a document by trailer and towing advisory service (link below)

http://www.ttas.co.uk/towsafe.cartransport.html

There was evidence of much confusion concerning the recovery, as opposed to transportation, of cars.

The law considers any towed vehicle to be a "trailer". Thus a vehicle being towed with the aid of either an "A" frame or a towing dolly, is considered to be a trailer unit.

If the weight of the trailer unit exceeds either 750 kg, or ½ the weight of the towing vehicle, or the towing vehicle manufacturers stated unbraked towing capacity, whichever is least; then it is required to be fitted with brakes that operate on all wheels.

*TTAS is not aware of an "A" frame unit that is able to effectively apply the brakes of the towed vehicle.*

The interpertation of this as i read it is that if a trailer is manufactured with a braking system they must work when being towed irrespective of weight, if it is under 750kgs. and does not have brakes then that is legal to tow


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## Enodreven (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi, whistlinggypsy

Thanks for the information, I have read the documents before and I felt that if we decide to make the AIXAM/2CV ETC. into a home made trailer by attaching a "A" Frame, we can do it and decide that we don't want brakes on our trailer, so therefore any braking system that is on the car can be ignored as it dosen't form part of our trailer construction, thus making it a home made trailer under 750kg with no braking system and thereby comply with the law.

What do you think ??? 

Brian


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## whistlinggypsy (May 1, 2005)

are you intending to use the "trailer" soley as a trailer by removing the interior or will use also use it as a car as well. if you leave the constituent parts in the vehicle i.e engine, seats and steering wheel ect. it is still a car therefore has a braking system


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## Enodreven (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi, 

I understand your points but are they fact and covered by legislation or are they just an opinion as i have read all of the documentation that i can find and your points are not raised anywhere, that is not to say they are incorrect but i would like to be able to find them in some documentation for future reference

because at the moment it appears that people make trailers out of anything, i have seen the back halfs of Mini's etc etc. and at no point can i find details of what can or cannot be carried in your trailer, and how it is kept in place ? eg. carrying a car engine does not seem illegal and having it bolted down could be a good safety issue.

And i also cannot find any mention of me not being able to decide that my trusty old trailer has been so good that i will give it another lease of life and convert it back to a car, and hence the reason for carrying the car engine in the trailer ? ha ha

How do you think i would get on it court with that explanation 

Brian


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## whistlinggypsy (May 1, 2005)

i understand your reasoning and i myself towed a car of varying weights for 10 yrs. with and w/out brakes, unfortunatlely it is still a very grey area. As far as i know there has only been one well documented court case (in Spain) and after an appeal it was dismissed and fine refunded.
The problem arises that a "high court" case has never arisen in a uk court and until this happens and a definitive jugdement is made and turned into a law it will remain a grey area.
Both my insurance companies i had in the past insured my tow car third party and classed it as a trailer this was fine for me but i dread to think what the insurance company would say if the "trailer" broke loose and caused a rta, will they still class it as a trailer or will it revert to its original use of a motor vehicle with all its intervening complications, they do not need more than a whiff of an excuse for dismissing a claim, and imagine this happening in France, Spain or Germany with their interpretation of the law and the complication of communication.
The bottom line is "you makes your choice and takes your chance"


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## Enodreven (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi, I take your point, but i suppose its the same if it was a trailer with a car on it and it broke lose i think there would be some explaining.

Also i was going to ask about how you insure the vehicle/trailer, do they all treat is as a trailer, and what happens to your normal car insurance ??

Brian


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Interesting thread, one thing occurs to me, if I put my car onto the grass verge outside my house it must be taxed, insured and mot'ed, if I then put an "A" frame on it, stick the towing vehicle's no. plate on it as well is it then suddenly classified as a trailer?

If you where stopped by plod and you where towing an "A" framed car/trailer which didn't have tax, mot or insurance, I think you could be in the crap. Therefore surely its still just a car on tow.

Olley


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## Enodreven (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi, 

What if you had a quick release steering wheel and perhaps the front seats, could you put them in the boot or in the MH, would you get away with it then, albeit you would need to tax and insure it for the times when you actually wanted to use it as a car ? (or convert your home made trailer into a car ? ha ha

When you are towing a car is it covered by the MH (eg. towing vehicle) insurance or is it still covered by the car insurance, even though their is no driver ?

Brian


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## whistlinggypsy (May 1, 2005)

I'm sorry i disagree with you it's not the same, if a trailer is designed to carry a car then full cover would be mandatory and if involved in a rta you would have legal recourse for an ins. claim.
My insures would only cover the car third party when being towed, when used as a car in this country in reverted back to it's full uk cover, when using the car in a foreign country unless agreed with the insures you are still only covered for third party ins.
A car only becomes a trailer when attached to a tow vehicle it must have red trailer markers which must be removed when used as a car and a towing vehicle reg. plate ditto, I think you would have a problem with plod and the excise dept. if you attached an a frame and called it a trailer for any dubious reasons.
The main reason it is a grey area in France and Spain is that it is illegal for *anyone *to tow a vehicle on a motorway unless by the police or their authorized breakdown services are involved i am not sure of the position on their national roads although i was pulled by police in Spain and Portugal a couple of times with no consequences on national roads it was more for curiousity than any other reason. The problem with Germany is that their TUV will or have not sanctioned a suitable a frame for use in towing a car so they will not allow german residents to tow although i have towed throughout Germany many times


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