# LEZ Residents forum



## nicholsong

This is a new but related thread re the London Emission Zone (LEZ)

I do not wish to diminish the effects of the 2012 LEZ on non-residents but their plight is much less than Residents - whose options are a £3,000 conversion or £200 a day to move from outside one's home.

I want to coordinate responses by Residents affected, thus I am opening this new thread.

In particular I would like to hear from owners caught by the 2012 rules. That is MHs over 3.5t which are currently compliant (i.e. Euro III engines) but which will fail to comply by 2012 merely on the basis of being over 3.5t. (Under 3.5t they still comply)

Come on, lets have you!!

Geoff


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## antpurley

Thanks for setting this up, we have sent our letter as advised on previous forum.


sorry to repeat but this is what we wrote

We are writing to you to bring to your attention to the LEZ and hope that you will address our issue with a matter of urgency.
We saved hard and bought a motorhome so that we and our children could enjoy time together as a family and see not only the lovely sites of this country but also to venture further a field.

We live few hundred yards from inside the lez, this means every time we move from our drive, we will have to pay £100 in and out, Even if we are not travelling into London which in two years we have never done.

Not only is the law retrospective, it is not measured on emissions as the public are led to believe, as for example the same motorhome as ours, registered in Oct 06, with the same emissions, engine etc will not have to pay, where as ours was registered in March 2006 is, everything the same so why are we being penalised.

Please don't advise us to get it converted, I am a nurse and my husband a postman and it took years for us to save for this and simply do not have the £3k+ to convert.

This is simple discrimination bureaucracy that makes no sense what's so ever.
We will be interested in your views and what action you will take.



Yours sincerely,



We hope others will write and with MHF support the decision will be overturned.... we will keep watching


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## locovan

http://www.writetothem.com/

Right all those that live in London or camp in the sites affected Please put you Postcode in here and email a message to your Local MP's

Please do it let them know your problems


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## locovan

A friend spoke to Clean Diesel Technology yesterday and they passed their details to a local garage (Oxted) Bromley she had a long conversation and they could fit a unit now but if they wait until April they should have the aproved unit for their vans (under going TFL aproval testing) at a much reduced price and was quoted £1500 +vat and labour. which is £1000 saving on the next cheapest unit.


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## antpurley

Would it be possible for a moderator make this a sticky and add it to the motorhome chitchat forum so that it reaches a wider audience?It is a bit hidden away down here :idea:


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## antpurley

moderator could this have a sticky. not many people will see it here.

also just bringing it to the top again, there must be more people affected!


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## Penquin

Moved to MH Chit Chat and made sticky as requested and as I thought essential as soon as I opened it!

This thread is VERY important to all of us who have vehicles over 3.5t and compliant now but not after January 2 2012.

Our Kontiki fits that bill exactly.

Thanks for alerting us to this opportunity. The more members that see it, the better IMO

Dave

For the Mods, but also for Kontiki owners who have been affected by the ruling. :?


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## brillopad

Luckly enough i'm not affected, but only by 200 yds, it might be of some use when you ask your mp or that silly old sod boris why buses and taxis and trains don't get fined.

Dennis


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## antpurley

Today I received this email

Dear Mrs Darville

Thank you for your recent e-mail relating to the LEZ. I quite agree that it is unreasonable for vehicles in Outer London, which are contributing very little to Central London's poor air quality, to be faced with these charges.

Phase 3 of the LEZ implementation is an area that I feel very strongly about, and indeed I campaigned to get the initial implementation date postponed for the very reasons you highlighted.

In part due to the arguments made by the Conservative Group on the London Assembly, the Mayor extended the postponement of the LEZ Phase 3 to take into consideration the ongoing economic uncertainty. However, he is not in a position to drop the implementation completely as to do so would breach an agreement made with the EU about UK air quality. The UK government was facing significant fines from the EU for breaches of air quality targets agreed by the previous government. The London LEZ formed part of a plan which prevented those fines from being levied.

Whilst I understand and have sympathy with your frustration, it is at this stage impossible for the LEZ plans to be dropped completely. However, as other air quality improvement measures are introduced, I hope that the Mayor may be in a position to reconsider in the future.

I apologise that this is not the answer you would have hoped for, but can assure you that the Mayor will continue to look very carefully at this issue in the future.

Yours sincerely


Steve O'Connell
London Assembly Member
Croydon & Sutton


so no further forward!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## locovan

Its the letter that we are all getting --they agree but sorry its so frustrating
Why dont they do it as the Germans do it ??? :evil:


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## locovan

I was checking through some forums on LEZ and someone has come up with a brill idea ---Take your number plate off and if caught thats a £30 fine --a lot cheaper than the £100 Lez --solved ha!ha! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## teemyob

*Number Plate*



locovan said:


> I was checking through some forums on LEZ and someone has come up with a brill idea ---Take your number plate off and if caught thats a £30 fine --a lot cheaper than the £100 Lez --solved ha!ha! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


MAVIS!


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## antpurley

got a reply from our MP, its nothing to do with him and he is surprised that two motorhomes the same registered in different months are not treated equally. he says London Assembly are responsible and doesn't foresee any change


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## nicholsong

Mavis

What's the fine for the LEZ offence on top of the numberplate offence?

Geoff


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## richardjames

locovan said:


> I was checking through some forums on LEZ and someone has come up with a brill idea ---Take your number plate off and if caught thats a £30 fine --a lot cheaper than the £100 Lez --solved ha!ha! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Mavis I'm really surprised at you even think of such a devious thing - naughty, naughty but nice


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## nicholsong

The apparent injustice of treating similar vehicles differently according to MPLM is encouraging owners to think deviously.

So, does anyone know:-

a) which cameras are used by Tfl to police the LEZ?

b) are they capable of operating at night?

c) where are they located?

I cannot imagine there is much danger if this info comes into the public domain as I doubt it would be worth Tfl siting even one camera to stop the few of us involved.

In fact, it might be an easy solution for them to give us the info on the QT to avoid them having to answer numerous letters from MH owners,MPs, and London Assembly Members etc. and maybe responding to appeals to the Divisional Court.

THE FIGHT IS NOT OVER!

Geoff


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## locovan

I really was joking and yes your right Geoff that would make it £130 in and £130 out but just a though :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## locovan

nicholsong said:


> The apparent injustice of treating similar vehicles differently according to MPLM is encouraging owners to think deviously.
> 
> So, does anyone know:-
> 
> a) which cameras are used by Tfl to police the LEZ?
> 
> b) are they capable of operating at night?
> 
> c) where are they located?
> 
> I cannot imagine there is much danger if this info comes into the public domain as I doubt it would be worth Tfl siting even one camera to stop the few of us involved.
> 
> In fact, it might be an easy solution for them to give us the info on the QT to avoid them having to answer numerous letters from MH owners,MPs, and London Assembly Members etc. and maybe responding to appeals to the Divisional Court.
> 
> THE FIGHT IS NOT OVER!
> 
> Geoff


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7215252.stm
They are on all exits from the M25 but just where i cant find out

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/17678.aspx


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## locovan

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php...89&showtopic=24319&st=0&p=217548&#entry217548

What they look like


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## DavidDredge

Has anyone thought to suggest that owners of existing motorhomes get ,say, 10 free trips a year in/out the zone? Perhaps for a small upfront admin charge.

It is clearly unfair to apply this law retrospectively although we can all understand why it is being introduced. In general motorhomes are not used often and therefore do not contribute much emissions. That why I think a compromise like I suggest is fair all around.

Any thoughts?

David[/u]


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## locovan

DavidDredge said:


> Has anyone thought to suggest that owners of existing motorhomes get ,say, 10 free trips a year in/out the zone? Perhaps for a small upfront admin charge.
> 
> It is clearly unfair to apply this law retrospectively although we can all understand why it is being introduced. In general motorhomes are not used often and therefore do not contribute much emissions. That why I think a compromise like I suggest is fair all around.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> David[/u]


Thats what I begged The Prime Minister, Ken Livingstone and Boris for.
I used that argument that the M/Homes dont travel many miles in London. People that reside there start them up and leave home and travel off on the Motorways and return so only short journeys in London.
Then there is the farce that with the M25 ringing London and the wind does blow the fumes, as it is the biggest Car Park some days.
What are they going to do --use giants fans on a bad day.
We petitioned and Boris did postpone from 2010 to 2012. 
Now its defo coming into place and conversions seem to be ready as I have been sending the telephone of the garage that has them coming in in July to people that ask here in Kent.


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## locovan

Oxted at orpington His number is 01883713633 ask for Dan

I received from a friend the info:-
They have the aproved unit coming in in July for our vans (A Rapido) (under going TFL aproval testing) at a much reduced price I was quoted £1500 +vat and labour. which is £1000 saving on the next cheapest unit.

here is the goverment approved list 
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/17701.aspx#tkt-tab-panel-1

Ps Speagal I Pm'd all this to you but you havent seen it turn your sound up :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## raynipper

What about foreign registered motorhomes?
As mine is French registered, would I have to pay the £100 each time we bring the van to see family in New Malden and Ewell which are just on the border?
Or do I just ignore the whole thing?

Ray.


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## sideways

Vehicles taxed disabled are exempt from the congestion charge will they be exempt in the LEZ?


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## locovan

raynipper said:


> What about foreign registered motorhomes?
> As mine is French registered, would I have to pay the £100 each time we bring the van to see family in New Malden and Ewell which are just on the border?
> Or do I just ignore the whole thing?
> 
> Ray.


Dont take it into London :wink: it is in the London side of the M25 but not all of it and it dips out to the other side of the M25 in Essex where it is exempt I believe it is all crazy they shoould have made it just the Centre of London.

see the map http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/roadusers/lez/areaofoperation/
I have read that they cant chase foreign drivers when the get back to their country but they have been made aware that they are not exempt


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## locovan

sideways said:


> Vehicles taxed disabled are exempt from the congestion charge will they be exempt in the LEZ?


Thats right, nothing for disabled vehicles listed.
Though most will be below the lower weight specification, so not
affected.


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## locovan

hmmmmm I think if a disabled driver registers they are exempt ---do you read this info like that
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/schedule-2-appendix-08-discounts.pdf

Customers will have to register with the Service Provider in order to receive a Discount. 
Others will not be required to register because TfL will be able to determine their Exempt 
status through access to DVLA data. 
For LEZ, the majority of Customers do not have to register with the Scheme . TfL will be 
able to determine GB registered vehicle's Compliant or Exempt status through access to 
DVLA/VOSA/Other Third Party data. All foreign and NI registered vehicles affected by the 
LEZ are required to register with the Service Provider


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## dan123

It is a major issue, and MMM ran a story a couple of issues ago (page 28 April 2011). It has advice on how to check whether your 'van's compliant and if it isn't how to go about having a diesel particulate filter fitted.
However, it is expensive considering many 'vans that are not compliant will be quiet old.
The good news is that it only affects diesel motorhomes that are have Euro II or earlier engines (so those built before the early 1990s). 
You can read the article by following this link www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/Motorhomes/News/General/London-s-LEZ-explained/_ch1_nw1243


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## camper69

dan123 said:


> The good news is that it only affects diesel motorhomes that are have Euro II or earlier engines (so those built before the early 1990s).


I don't think you have read the thread properly. 

Derek


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## julie1

Really feel for your plight I'm sure you must be fuming (pardon the pun). We visited London in April (Abbey Wood). We are at the moment exempt but our van is over 3.5t so will be affected come 2012.
We WILL NOT consider visiting London in our motorhome if we are charged. It's ridiculous as most MH owners park up on a site and use public transport to get about. 
I reckon a lot of us will just stay away including foreign tourists who find that GB is too expensive as it is.
Julie


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## robrace

*Lez*

My Ford Transit based Bucaneer Caravel was reg in 2001 and according to the LEZ site it does'nt comply.But I am told that all MK 6 Transit's comply with the euro 3 emissions.What's the difference between a 2001 and a 2002 2.4tdi.One apparently complies and one doe'snt.We usually visit either Abbey Wood or Crystal Palace and as we understand it from next year we won't be able to


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## Spannerandco

Hi Im new to this site and have read with interst about the LEZ and motorhomes. Its fine we can all stamp our feet and say we are not going to visit London, but some of us have to. I use my motorhome as a base for when I visit trade shows, it helps keep the cost down. Others of you live within the LEZ and need to get on and off your drive, and some people will still want to use the camping sites within the LEZ. There is talk that other cities in Britain will also introduce Low Emmission Zones and many European cities allready have them.

I am lucky in that my present motorhome is compliant, but my old one would not have passed. Im sure many people who need to visit London canot afford to upgrade so will have to take the route of conversion.

My local MOT center has signs up in their reception area advising motorhome owners to check if their vehicles are going to be affected. I understand from the owner that they have a prototype exhaust filter fitted to a customers Fiat Ducatto based Auto Roller. They are testing this for complience with TFL in conjuction with the manufacturer. They are expecting to be in a position to fit and certify by July with a simular price guide to the earlier post in this section. To gain more info ring Tomsetts 01795 841007 ask for Dave.

One other thought with the 2012 oylmpics coming up will any motorhome owners need or want to visit? 8O


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## Richard_M

Am I right in saying that LEZ only affects diesels? My petrol motorhome would not be affected?


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## nicholsong

Richard m 

Yes correct


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## antpurley

As I have said before we live just inside the LEZ the camera is a few yards down the road, we are going to see if we can get to the m25 from where we are on the a23, using backroads, if not our MH will have to go up for sale after the summer as we cannot afford the fee everytime we move it off the drive. It will be a shame and we will be sad to see it go but thats the reality.

I wrote to MPS, London mayor and have got no where and they seem adament its going to happen.

So anyone out there that doesn't live in the LEZ Zone, or inclined to go into London our MH will be up for sale autumn  cannot afford a newer one so back to the aeroplane   or better still we cannot be the only ones just in the LEZ zone can we not lobby or maybe MHF or MMm or all could help us, we seem to be on our own.


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## raynipper

CRAZY....... !!!!!

The odd motorhome movement is crucified and yet many busses used all day are constantly choking the capital.

Ray.


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## antpurley

So anyone out there that doesn't live in the LEZ Zone, or inclined to go into London



correction or NOT inclined to go into London!

apologies


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## antpurley

I've just received a letter from transport for London saying that my vehicle will not meet the standards :roll: 
will try and put it up here later.


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## tonka

antpurley said:


> I've just received a letter from transport for London saying that my vehicle will not meet the standards :roll:
> will try and put it up here later.


Also had a letter today, dont live anywhere near London but I think it's because I used the LEZ website and must have entered my reg number to check compliance.. Which failed 

No loss to me as I never go into London in the motorhome BUT something people need to be aware of.. It only needs a major bump on the M25 as your passing and you could end up following a diversion that takes you into the LEZ zone.!!!


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## trekki

Hi fortunately I don't live in the soon to be LEZ but as tonka says what happens if road problems re route you into the LEZ is Boris going to charge you for it ? and what about all the diesel cars far more than motorhomes pushing out their particles then you have all the lorries supplying the markets are they going to have to pay if they are the cost of food starts going up to cover the extra costs 
At the end of the day the best thing for all is to scrap the stupid idea and get someone with a bit of sense to be the mayor of London


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## spatz1

Why have they penalised everything more or less inside the m25 ???

Having lived on one of the seven mountains around rome i looked 2000ft down on the entire city and Rome has a black doughnut of polution over it that coresponds exactly with its circling ring road the GRA on calm days.... Seems to me most of the polution stems from this and logically most would stem from the m25 around london and from whichever direction a wind blows both cities will cop for it...

Good way of raising money and getting rid of traffic though ..


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## locovan

Oh so many times my London friends are saying Im 10 yards or 100yards inside the Zone and have a camera in my street etc etc so unfair.
They cant start their engine without getting a fine if the move to travel out of the Zone.


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## locovan

trekki said:


> Hi fortunately I don't live in the soon to be LEZ but as tonka says what happens if road problems re route you into the LEZ is Boris going to charge you for it ? and what about all the diesel cars far more than motorhomes pushing out their particles then you have all the lorries supplying the markets are they going to have to pay if they are the cost of food starts going up to cover the extra costs
> At the end of the day the best thing for all is to scrap the stupid idea and get someone with a bit of sense to be the mayor of London


Sit on the M25 and make a cup of tea and refuse to come off :wink: 
When i asked this question at the start when I was arguing with Ken Livingstone they said they would lift the LEZ on such an occasion.
I cant find anything written down now.
The thing is to refuse to come off the London side if it is in the Zone.
The police will have to agree to direct the traffic off on the non Zone side.
What a crazy world.


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## RedSonja

Reply for Spatz1

The LEZ is levied on London Boroughs.

I Live in the London Borough of Bexley but my postcode is Kent. London Boroughs cover some of Middlesex, Surrey, Essex and Kent or he inside of the M25 ring.

Its a pain. If I could Move 100 yards down the Road then I would.

Sonja


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## camper69

tonka said:


> It only needs a major bump on the M25 as your passing and you could end up following a diversion that takes you into the LEZ zone.!!!


I had often thought of that as we drove round the M25 to Dover before we sold our motorhome. Had made up my mind that I would just refuse and only proceed if they gave me written confirmation that it was under police orders.

There will be quite a tail back if it ever occurs and a few heated arguments

Derek


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## Bob45

*LEZ*

We have 2 sons who live in London and up to now have used Abbey Wood and Crystral Palace to visit them and London generally. 
After 2012 our M/H will be non - compliant as it is 3.8 tons.

There are other sites just outside the M25 border so we will use them but considering we would only just touch the zone it is rather silly.

I really feel for those of you who live in London and are caught up retrospectively.
Bob


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## nicholsong

I think the 'Diversion' discussion is a non/off-topic because when there is a diversion into the London Congestion Zone it is suspended for that route and I believe it would be for the LEZ. Anyway a police direction would be a sufficient defence.

So please can we forget diversions.

The major problem is for residents, because non-residents have little chance of influencing Tfl since they do not vote for them or pay their salaries.

Non residents' choice is stay out and travel in on public transport (which is what Tfl want) or pay up.

Residents have some options:-

1 Pay for conversion, if you want multipule exits/entries - good news if this is really coming down to 1,500 pounds.

2 Test a route out/in - may be a gamble of 200 pounds against a conversion cost. We might even form a co-operative for a given route and share any fine.

3 For those whose MH can be just below or above 3.5t, downplate with DVLA, request Tfl to amend their camera computer records, but be ready to demonstrate to VOSA/Police that running weight is as per plate on vehicle!

4 (This is more on the lines of Mavis,s remove numberplate 'joke') 
When you imported the vehicle you did not throw away the old Lichenstein plates did you?

Minorities thoughout the world have often had to resort to guerrilla tactics.

Geoff


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## 96299

Talk about just about being in the zone. I only need to travel 100yds up the road marked with the black arrow, and then turn right. As you can see the zone goes right for about another 100yds before the cut off, so they have us by the short and curlies you could say.

We only ever turn right at the top of our road which is away from London, so it seems so unfair that we are caught in the zone by a hundred yards or so. :evil: 

Steve


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## locovan

The trouble is its to late to fight this we started fighting with Ken Livingstone but all the cameras are in place they have spent money setting it up.
Boris put it off and now he is determined to make it go ahead.
I even went to the EU under my rights to travel freely in London to visit my family--they said they dont want to interfer :roll:


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## nicholsong

Chigman, are you sure there is a camera on that small stretch of road?

Mavis, I was staying in Hannover recently, inside thir equivalent to LEZ, and my local friend said there is political discussion to drop the zone If it happens it undermines the argument that Tfl have to apply the LEZ to comply with EU. .

It would be interesting to follow the argument of requiring the Tfl to show how the application of the LEZ to PHGV (which would differentiate us from HGV) reduced the pollution and by how much.

If the answer is infinitessimal we could use the argument that the effect is de minimis to the problem, is disproportionate and therefore breaches our human rights.

I know this a rearguard action and should have been done when the propasals were made prior to 2008, but other groups have challenged legislation retrospectively and won. 

Geoff

P.S Just thought of a new ruse - three MH owners drive in convoy very close together: first is compliant, second non-compliant and third compliant. Camera angles probably do not dip low enough to catch the middle numberplate.

P.PS. Find out how the 'Travellers' are going to solve the problem. Probably steal somebody's expensive conversiion kit.


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## 96299

nicholsong said:


> Chigman, are you sure there is a camera on that small stretch of road?
> Geoff
> 
> I was just thinking the same Geoff. I haven't bothered to look up until now to be honest. I will though have a good look about this weekend for one . If there is one, I bet it's sly
> :twisted:
> 
> Steve


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## ched999uk

nicholsong said:


> It would be interesting to follow the argument of requiring the Tfl to show how the application of the LEZ to PHGV (which would differentiate us from HGV) reduced the pollution and by how much.
> 
> If the answer is infinitessimal we could use the argument that the effect is de minimis to the problem, is disproportionate and therefore breaches our human rights.


Might be worth a Freedom of Information request to TfL. You could request all the data relating to PHGV when considering the LEZ. I bet they would come up with nothing! Thus proving they made no considerations. You could also request the number of PHGV that enter the congestion zone. Might help if someone has all the facts to be able to argue that due consideration was not made.


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## antpurley

Chigman said:


> Talk about just about being in the zone. I only need to travel 100yds up the road marked with the black arrow, and then turn right. As you can see the zone goes right for about another 100yds before the cut off, so they have us by the short and curlies you could say.
> 
> We only ever turn right at the top of our road which is away from London, so it seems so unfair that we are caught in the zone by a hundred yards or so. :evil:
> 
> Steve


A few hundred yards drive for us and we will be alright as there are no cameras in between, so unless it is one of their mobile cameras we should be O.K.
The fine for motorhomes over 3.5 tonnes is £1000 8O or £500 if paid within 14 days.Weighing up the options. 
As someone once said "The strictest law often causes the most serious wrong."


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## antpurley

Chigman said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chigman, are you sure there is a camera on that small stretch of road?
> Geoff
> 
> I was just thinking the same Geoff. I haven't bothered to look up until now to be honest. I will though have a good look about this weekend for one . If there is one, I bet it's sly
> :twisted:
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> You can't miss them they look like thermos flasks.There will be mobile ones too but the odds must be very slim on getting caught as it's not as if we drive around London everyday.
Click to expand...


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## antpurley

Letter received.Sorry about the quality.
Do Daf make motorhomes


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## tviall

A friend of mine has resigned themselves to the fact that the LEZ is not going to be changed by Jan so is actively looking for a new exhaust to make them compliant.

Has anyone had a system fitted yet? How much? Where did you get it done? 

We are getting silly prices of £4000. 

Tony


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## trekki

What ever happened to democracy all that seems to have happened
over the last few decades is power mad politicians making life harder and harder do they really think with all the pollution from the traffic on the M25 they are going to stop the wind from blowing it towards the city ?


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## antpurley

trekki said:


> What ever happened to democracy all that seems to have happened
> over the last few decades is power mad politicians making life harder and harder do they really think with all the pollution from the traffic on the M25 they are going to stop the wind from blowing it towards the city ?


The trouble is us motorhome owners are usually middle aged + and very unlikely to go out causing a riot,though the way I feel i'm up for it if anybody wants to start one :evil: 
It is unfair but nobody is listening.


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## Carl_n_Flo

Daft idea I know - but for those of you who live close to the edge of the LEZ, how about fitting a pair of caravan motor-movers to the back wheels and 'driving' the van beyond the boundary on them - dont turn the engine on.......... :? 

Or get an old, petrol, range rover (or something substantial) and tow the van out of the LEZ - before starting the engine.

Datf thoughts I know - thank god we no longer live within the zone!!!!

Carl


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## nicholsong

Carl I like lateral thinking

But maybe the cost of vehicle, tax, insurance and MOT over 3-4 years might top the conversion cost.

What is the train weight for a Land Rover; and fine for exceeding it?

We probably will not have much chance of changing legislation now but maybe we can find a wriggle way out of problem if we keep our thinking hats on.

Don't let the Tfl get you down!

Geoff


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## locovan

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/17702.aspx 
They say here they have made changes and weight comes into it

But also do it by vehicle type just to recheck

So try this one 
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/roadusers/lez/check-by-type/default.aspx


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## locovan

Right my friend has finally got her M/Home sorted hope this sorts you out as well

http://www.tomsettkent.com/
We can fit a DPF to your vehicle which is TFL approved. At present we are waiting for VOSA to issue the necessary certificates so that we can certify the system when we fit it, this should be in place shortly.

The Clean diesel DP filter is a "Constantly regenerating dry system" so there are no costly additives needed to help it operate. The system should regenerate and clean itselfregularly, there is a small flow gauge fitted to the vehicles dash which confirms the state of the filter. In most driving conditions the filter will look after itself, but if the gauge does show that the filter is beginning to block then it would be necessary to carry out a regeneration drive cycle, (driving for a short time in a lower gear than you would normally use for a set distance). This is the same for most modern diesel vehicles which have factory fitted DPF's as standard.

At this stage Clean Diesel do not envisage it necessary to have a yearly service (clean the DPF), but depending on the condition of the engine and or the vehicles drive cycle, some vehicles may require a periodic service. The Clean diesel modular design allows the DPF to be dismantled. The filter is simply removed and placed in a specialist cleaning station, heated for several hours to remove the build-up. After cooling the filter is refitted and the vehicle is ready to go. Turn around for this operation is expected to be 2 to 3 days with a cost of around £150 plus VAT. We are hoping to be able to offer a filter loan service, which subject to a surcharge, would prevent the vehicle being off road during this time.

The Clean Diesel DPF will have a two year warranty, covering parts and labour.

The DPF will need to be certified which we will carry out at time of fitting. It will also need to be recertified annually and we are hoping to carry this out at the same time as the vehicles yearly MOT.

Yearly certification £32.00 at VOSA authorised testing stations

The cost for your type of engine is £1370.00 for the DPF kit. £300.00 Labour. VAT @ 20% £320.00. Total £2004.00.


----------



## nicholsong

Hello Mavis

I cannot spot what changes Tfl have made. Can you and can you please point me to them.

Thanks Geoff


----------



## locovan

Hi Geoff it says
The age and weight of a vehicle indicate the level of particulate matter (PM) it produces.

So people are finding that when they put the reg in 2010 they were going to be OK and comply in 2012 but they have changed it to weight as well so some are not complying 2012 thats why I say use the other

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/roadusers/lez/check-by-type/default.aspx

I feel there will be a lot of confusion in 2012 and I hope they dont fine people straight away just warn them.
The Olympics are going to cause even more problems as people come to London in their thousend's


----------



## locovan

Foreign vehicles
Are included, and need to register. Click here to register with TfL in English, visit the Euro Parking Collection website for a form in your chosen language, or call 0845 607 0009 or from abroad +44 (0) 207 310 8998.

I wonder if they will chase visitors??

http://www.lowemissionzones.eu/countries-mainmenu-147/united-kingdom-mainmenu-205/london


----------



## nicholsong

Mavis thanks

Unfortunately changes do not help my case.

However i will PM you

Geoff


----------



## dereversken

A thought that has crossed my mind- which I`m sure is unlikely to satisfy the authorities, but never the less may be worth a look at- is, if the emissions of the base vehicle at 3.5t is permitted, but not permitted if it has been upgraded to 4t say, could that same vehicle be double rated? After all so long as it was indeed within the 3.5t limit when within the LEZ then that ought to be good enough? any thoughts?......Ken


----------



## locovan

dereversken said:


> A thought that has crossed my mind- which I`m sure is unlikely to satisfy the authorities, but never the less may be worth a look at- is, if the emissions of the base vehicle at 3.5t is permitted, but not permitted if it has been upgraded to 4t say, could that same vehicle be double rated? After all so long as it was indeed within the 3.5t limit when within the LEZ then that ought to be good enough? any thoughts?......Ken


The trouble is it all goes by what info they have alongside your Reg No.
I have asked this question though and they say that a heavier Vehicle has more power hence more Emission's.

And thats another point that I have said check with them that they have the right info- as a few people that have contacted me over this found they (the DVLA)had the wrong weight down.
The Manufacturer registers it as the base and the converter's re-registers it as a M/Home thats when they dont always change the weight, or they dont put the right weight down.


----------



## nicholsong

I have been told by Tfl that if the plated weight, as shown on the chassis, usually attached in engine compartment and/or plate in footwell, shows 3500kg or less and you submit photo evidence that Tfl will amend their records.

After all they probably took your weight from DVLA records, which, on V5C, shows only 'Revenue Weight' not GVW, so what info on your GVW do they have to challenge your photographic evidence.

Hope this helps.

Geoff


----------



## locovan

This explains a lot Germany class all Motorhomes as light duty vehicals
The UK and TFL class us as HGVs hence we are euro 4 in Germany and 3 in the UK

I kept asking Ken Livingstone and Boris to do it like Germany I wish they would it would be easier


----------



## RedSonja

Mavis

I have had the same e mail from Tomsetts but I havent heard from them yet that they have got TFL Approval.

Hopefully I will hear soon.

Sonja


----------



## locovan

They have said in July so it must be Imminent.


----------



## nicholsong

Mavis 

Just to clarify, I am referring to your post above at 1345.

When you say classified as Euro 4 in Germany and 3 in UK are you talking about 'requirements' of LEZ and the German City zones, or the categorisation of emissions of the engines (surely that cannot change within Europe)?

I am not being picky just not sure.

However if it turns out that Tfl's categorisation is arbitrary, because it was easy to base it on DVLA's revenue cut-off at 3500kg we might be on to a loophole.

Let's keep plugging at it!

Geoff


----------



## locovan

http://www.lowemissionzones.eu/countries-mainmenu-147/germany-mainmenu-61

Read for yourself

Its the way they class a m/home over 3.5 we class it as heavy goods Germany doesnt

This was one of my arguments that in Europe they did give m/homes exemptions in away but the Ministry of transport wouldnt listen to me.
You devil your getting me all fired up again when i had admitted defeat. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## nicholsong

Mavis

Sorry to get you 'fired up again'

Unfotunately I came to this problem a little late as I am a comparatively new MH owner. Had I been earlier maybe some of the points I am now investigating might have rattled some cages.

However retrospective fighting on legislatiion/delegated legislation, which does not stand up to scrutiny, can result in it being overturned. 

Geoff


----------



## geordie01

So if i go to Germany get my mh emissions tested and get a sticker i would be ok in Germany for all the cities but not for Boris and his lot just because of the 350kgs my mh is over weight limit.This does not seem right as it is euro law and should be the same through out the eu. Is this a loop hole?
What about Germans coming to London do they get the fine even though their mh is fine in their country.


----------



## locovan

geordie01 said:


> So if i go to Germany get my mh emissions tested and get a sticker i would be ok in Germany for all the cities but not for Boris and his lot just because of the 350kgs my mh is over weight limit.This does not seem right as it is euro law and should be the same through out the eu. Is this a loop hole?
> What about Germans coming to London do they get the fine even though their mh is fine in their country.


It does seem to be the case and yes it seems we have a tool to use but we need some help on this one as Its what I was fighting for and got no where so I thought I had lost???


----------



## locovan

Just been asked ____
Thanks for the update, I have been wondering if you had the filter etc fitted in Germany to meet their Umwelt standards would it be acceptable over here, as you could get one fitted easily while in Germany for probably a lot less than you can here.

Or put it another way if a Germany MH had been fitted with a filter in Germany would it be acceptable to meet the LEZ requirements

I cant answer that can you ???


----------



## Brownfools

We're wondering what will happen when we take the Brownfools van on the road in January.
Following the problems we had with registration (Full details on the Brownfools website) we were (eventually) issued with a certificate of compliance. This states that, from 2012 we ARE compliant.
However, entering our registration number in their website shows us as NON-compliant from 2012 onwards.
T_f_L = Totally _f*****g _Ludicrous
or (clean version) Tinpot _flipping _Lefties

Dave and Prew


----------



## nicholsong

Mavis

I think the answer to the fitting of a German filter is that the filter wherever fitted will either bring the emissions down to Euro III or !V or it will not..

The difference seems to be whether the vehicle needs to meet a given standard.If MHs over 3.5t in German are not classified as heavy goods they may comply in Germany because they only need to be Euro III but if over 3.5t would not comply for London. 

But I doubt whether the Tfl computer will be programmed to know the details of all foreign engines by number plate - especially those countries where the plate changes each year like our tax disc.

Maybe we could argue that to enforce against UK reidents, since only a UK resident can have a UK plate, is discriminatory. This argument would be against the 'enforcement' of the law, which is a current argument, rather than against the enactment of the law, which is a past event which we are now powerless to challenge.

Has anybody got any views on the strength of this last point?

Geoff


----------



## locovan

nicholsong said:


> Mavis
> 
> I think the answer to the fitting of a German filter is that the filter wherever fitted will either bring the emissions down to Euro III or !V or it will not..
> 
> The difference seems to be whether the vehicle needs to meet a given standard.If MHs over 3.5t in German are not classified as heavy goods they may comply in Germany because they only need to be Euro III but if over 3.5t would not comply for London.
> 
> But I doubt whether the Tfl computer will be programmed to know the details of all foreign engines by number plate - especially those countries where the plate changes each year like our tax disc.
> 
> Maybe we could argue that to enforce against UK reidents, since only a UK resident can have a UK plate, is discriminatory. This argument would be against the 'enforcement' of the law, which is a current argument, rather than against the enactment of the law, which is a past event which we are now powerless to challenge.
> 
> Has anybody got any views on the strength of this last point?
> 
> Geoff


I have passed this on but a thought strikes me that Germany wont have the right conversion for a 3.8 Hymer because they only need to get it to Euro 3 as thats all that is required in Germany.
I wish I had thought of this before as its becoming a stronger case of stupidity isnt it.
I think I will draft up a letter again and do another campaign with Cameron and my Local MP and MPs of London Boroughs.


----------



## nicholsong

Mavis

I take your point about the unavailability of conversion kits in Germany but that would not make a 3.5t+ legal in Tfl terms. But as I said how does the Tfl computer know one way or another.

As I understand the EU stance on polution and emissions it is that each Member State is required to meet certain standards, but that the way they do it and the legislation they use is for each Member State, so there is no EU law which is EU-wide.

Incidentally, while in Hannover recently, illegally parking just inside their emissions zone on a Sat night, my friends told me the local counciil is thinking of dropping their scheme as ineffective and costly!

Re letters, rather than clutter up the thread with detail, I will PM you.

Geoff


----------



## locovan

nicholsong said:


> Mavis
> 
> I take your point about the unavailability of conversion kits in Germany but that would not make a 3.5t+ legal in Tfl terms. But as I said how does the Tfl computer know one way or another.
> 
> As I understand the EU stance on polution and emissions it is that each Member State is required to meet certain standards, but that the way they do it and the legislation they use is for each Member State, so there is no EU law which is EU-wide.
> 
> Incidentally, while in Hannover recently, illegally parking just inside their emissions zone on a Sat night, my friends told me the local counciil is thinking of dropping their scheme as ineffective and costly!
> 
> Re letters, rather than clutter up the thread with detail, I will PM you.
> 
> Geoff


Whoops sorry I meant a 3.5 as well. Im just saying that will a conversion filter be to the right standards here ??? people really havent got much time if they need to travel in London.

Yes it has been said before that Germany is thinking of dropping it as its working out very costly to keep it up.


----------



## RedSonja

I dont think having the conversion done in Germany will do any good. this is mainly because who ever converts the van has to be registered with TFL and they have to sign the filter off. 

Thats what the delay is over here at the moment. Firstly the filter was supposed to be ready and signed off by TFL in May, this then slipped to end of July. I am still waiting to hear if the filter has been signed off yet. Also as TFL say that it will take up to 3 months to register a vehicle then you only have until the end of September to get it sorted. 

Storage is looking more and more favourable for us although I doubt that we can get it stored anywhere near home. 

In the Summer edition of MMM page 182 there are some letters about the LEZ saying that if your vehicle is under 3.500 to get in touch with Fiat if tfl are saying that your vehicle isnt Euro 3.

I will read further and get back to you.

Sonja


----------



## Brownfools

Sonja,
When our "dealer" failed to (properly?) register the Brownfools van, we had to contact Fiat to have them confirm that it was Euro 3 compliant. T_f_L were insisting that it wasn't.
We dealt with a very helpful gentleman by the name of Tim Speechley who is their Homologation Executive (whatever that is!).
Bear in mind that this was in May 2008 and he may have moved on. Back then he was contactable by email on [email protected]
'Hope this helps.

Dave and Prew


----------



## RedSonja

Hi
Unfortunately we are registered at over 3500 so even though we would be Euro 3 were not compliant because of weight.

Someone with the same van and engine but plated at 3500 would be compliant. 

Ludicrous or what

Sonja


----------



## locovan

RedSonja said:


> Hi
> Unfortunately we are registered at over 3500 so even though we would be Euro 3 were not compliant because of weight.
> 
> Someone with the same van and engine but plated at 3500 would be compliant.
> 
> Ludicrous or what
> 
> Sonja


they say the extra weight being pulled gives more emissions.
What would happen if you change the weight to 3500 are you over weight???


----------



## antpurley

*Wimbledon stadium want exemption for their competitors*

Perhaps we should keep an eye on this.If drivers from outside are given special status then we must have some case living inside.
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/save-wimbledon-stadium.html


----------



## Dudders

*Boris Johnson is on LBC radio*

Boris Johnson has a one hour slot on LBC radio today between 9am and 10am.

You can contact the show on 0845 60 60 973, text 84850 or by email from the LBC website.

A good oportunity to ask him about the LEZ issues.

I have sent an email, I wonder if he will read it.

Dudley


----------



## locovan

http://www.lbc.co.uk/listen-live-3578

Listening :wink:


----------



## locovan

Is he leaving it to the end of the programe :roll:


----------



## Dudders

locovan said:


> Is he leaving it to the end of the programe :roll:


It seems like he is ignoring the issue and chatting to his friends.

:x


----------



## locovan

Dudders said:


> locovan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is he leaving it to the end of the programe :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems like he is ignoring the issue and chatting to his friends.
> 
> :x
Click to expand...

He doesnt want to be questioned about the LEZ thats for sure :evil: :evil:


----------



## Dudders

locovan said:


> Dudders said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> locovan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is he leaving it to the end of the programe :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems like he is ignoring the issue and chatting to his friends.
> 
> :x
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He doesnt want to be questioned about the LEZ thats for sure :evil: :evil:
Click to expand...

Yep, he totally ignored the issue, what a waste of an hours listening.


----------



## antpurley

Perhaps we should keep an eye on this.If drivers from outside are given special status then we must have some case living inside. 
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/save-wimbledon-stadium.html

any thoughts!


----------



## locovan

There are so many petitions going now why didnt they do it early --at last people are waking up to the LEZ and what it means.:wink: 
4x4's have realised so everyone pulling a Caravan have sudenly realised as the letter has come through the door :roll:


----------



## nicholsong

I doubt whether Wimbledon Stadium have much chance at this stage.

At least the drivers have one more option than us - using a petrol-driven tow vehicle.

Geoff


----------



## Speagle

*London Emmission Zone*

Does anyone on this site know that a group of people are making a protest about the London Emmission Zone .

They are meeting at Old Palace Yard Houses Of Parliament
6th August 1.00-3.00 pm

Speagle


----------



## locovan

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-101504.html&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=lez&start=0

Can a mod join this onto our official sticky as we want to keep it all in together???

Speagle there are Petitions and marches galore now but it is all to late. 
They have spent to much money now putting the cameras up there is no way we can get them to change their mind.
Why didnt they do these marches when this first started with Ken Livingston :roll:


----------



## bognormike

mavis - merged!

and I've Pm'd speagle advising him :wink:


----------



## Cheyenne614

*LEZ compliance for pre 2002 vehicles*

I am a pre Jan 2002 m/home owner & so far have not been able to find any of the LEZ listed conversion companies who have an approved conversion to fit my 1996 Fiat 2.5 turbo diesel. They can all do trucks but so far do not have an approved conversion ready to fit.

It is quite obvious that most pre Jan 2002 light commercial vehicles used on a commercial everyday basis will be past there sell by date so scrapped by now. Anyone who still uses one on a commercial basis will not pay the costs of conversion as the cost would far exceed the value of the vehicle & would probably purchase a post Jan 2002 vehicle.

There is much discussion here on this topic but I have not seen any posts from someone who had had the necessary work done & approved. Are there any Motorhome Facts subscribers who have had it done, if so where & how much did it cost? I am very happy with my unit & I am prepared to pay for a conversion.

From what I can see to upgrade to a post Jan 2002 vehicle through a dealer would cost from £12000 upwards which I can't afford to do so no conversion no more motorhoming as I would have to sell up.


----------



## locovan

http://www.tomsettkent.com/lowemmissionzonemotorhomes.htm

Transport for London will introduce new rules regarding vehicle emmissions on 3rd January 2012. This will affect certain vehicles including motorhomes. A daily charge of between £100 and £200 will be payable on non compliant vehicles. Between 2500kg and 3500kg pay £100 and vehicles over 3500kg will have to pay £200 per day to drive in London.

Currently most major cities in Germany have already in place a Low Emmission Zone (Umweltzone). If your motorhome is compliant with the London restrictions, your certificate will make it a simple task to register your vehicle for the German Umweltzone and other Low Emmission Zones in Europe.

London is just the first of many UK cities who are considering Low Emission Zones to follow the European directive including Manchester and Edinburgh.

Who will be affected?

Motorhome owners with motorhomes over 2.5 tonnes gross vehicle weight will need to check if they need to take action. Check if your motorhome is compliant at the Transport For London website using your vehicle registration number click here (opens in another window)

The main groups of motorhome owners who will be affected are as follows:

Those who live in London and store them in London

People who take their motorhomes to exhibitions shows for accomodation e.g. Earls court

Tourists and those who wish to visit the main campsites in London

How we can help

We at Tomsett Kent are working in conjunction with Clean Diesel Technologies to obtain certification from Transport For London(TFL) to fit diesel particulate filters to existing motorhomes to bring them up to compliance. This works by installing a diesel particulate filter in the exhaust system as close to the engine as possible, lowering the emissions of the vehicle.

We can supply, fit and certify a diesel particulate filter and then arrange for your motorhome to be registered with Transport For London. Once installed, most filters will operate for several years without maintenance subject to use; only cleaning of the filter may be necessary. However your motorhome will need to be certified annually which could be carried out at the same time as you MOT.

How much will it cost?

The product kit will cost around £1370 + VAT and the labour approximately £300 plus VAT. Price based on a FIAT Ducato/Peugeot boxer base vehicle.

For More Information about the Low Emmission Zone and your motorhome call us on 01795 841007 (ask for Dave) or drop us an email to [email protected]


----------



## Cheyenne614

*LEZ compliance*

Hi Locovan,

Many thanks for the information. I have spoken to Dave who has given me the lowdown on the current situation. He tells me that they have had a Ducato on test for some months without any problems & is confident that fitting etc. will not be a problem.

The conversion should be able to be done in a day so all being well no return journey will be necessary. He is going to email me the details when he has time.


----------



## Speagle

Hi Bognormike and others

From what I have heard it would seem that a lot of people did not realise that the new rules would affect them, suddenley they have received a letter from TFL to say that from January they will not be compliant......

Many small self employed builders ect. are already earning less than they were a couple of years ago and are not in a position to go out and replace thier vans.

perhaps they should all drive the vans into London a few days before the 3rd of January and just abandon them on the main roads into the capital


----------



## Mistemina

*Low emissions filter*

 I have just received a letter from the Transport for London.
It kindly points out that my Hymer B544 2.5 TDi 1998 model does not meet the low emissions requirement. We have until January 2012 to comply - or pay £100 per day to enter the low emissions zone.
This means that we will have to fit a filter. Fitting LPG will not lower the emissions enough as Turbo diesels still use a mixture of diesel and LPG.
Does anyone know roughly how much a low emissions filter will cost ?
Does anyone know a fitter in the South they can recommend?
On top of the fitting -we have to get a £40 per annum emissions certificate .
I have thought about avoiding the Greater London area, which includes part of the M25,but it will expand to other areas in the country eventually ,so it is only a matter of time when huge swathes of England will be no go areas!
The suggestion to buy a newer motorhome is not an option.


----------



## locovan

The M25 is exempt its only if you come off and go into London.
And thats a £100 in and £100 out dont forget.

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-101504-lez.html
Update on our LEZ Compliance issue
A friend wrote

a Rapido the engine is a 2006 Mercedes Euro Sprinter 316cdi 2686cc which ment we had to have a filter fitted.
After lots of research we have now had our motorhome updated to comply for the LEZ in London. At a total cost of £2006 +£32 VOSA certification.

Dave Thomsett has fitted us with the Clean diesel filter under the Clean diesel trial but they are now in production.
Thomsett Church Farm, Stockbury (next to the Church) Sittingbourne, KENT. ME9 7RD
TEL: 01795 841007


----------



## Glandwr

I think that you also have to use a approved contractor on the tfL's LEZ list to have the filter fitted. I found them once on the tfL's website.

Dick


----------



## JohnsCrossMotorHomes

Daft bit of legislation, my old merc has a 3.2L V8 diesel engine and is exempt because it is a car.

Same engine or smaller in a motorhome is not.

Legislation should have excluded all lesiure vehicles and not lumped them into commercials but that takes a brain which TFL lack.

Peter


----------



## Hymervanman

Unless you live there I can't understand why you need to drive into the LEZ- either camp outside it and get the tube/train/bus in or go elsewhere - there are plenty of other places that would welcome your business. Perhaps then Boris would put LEZ where the sun don't shine............


----------



## 96299

Hymervanman said:


> Unless you live there I can't understand why you need to drive into the LEZ- either camp outside it and get the tube/train/bus in or go elsewhere - there are plenty of other places that would welcome your business. Perhaps then Boris would put LEZ where the sun don't shine............


I live in the London borough of Redbridge. I only ever want to travel away from London, never into it, I hate the bloody place anyway. I am only in the zone by about a hundred yards or so, so very frustrating as you can imaging. At the moment I am compliant, but one day soon i wont be. :evil:

Steve


----------



## Mistemina

Chigman said:


> Hymervanman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you live there I can't understand why you need to drive into the LEZ- either camp outside it and get the tube/train/bus in or go elsewhere - there are plenty of other places that would welcome your business. Perhaps then Boris would put LEZ where the sun don't shine............
> 
> 
> 
> I live in the London borough of Redbridge. I only ever want to travel away from London, never into it, I hate the bloody place anyway. I am only in the zone by about a hundred yards or so, so very frustrating as you can imaging. At the moment I am compliant, but one day soon i wont be. :evil:
> 
> Steve
Click to expand...

 I dont go to London a lot ,but I can see that other areas will be affected. It looks like there are also parts of Europe - even motorways in Austria for example that will require an emissions certificate. This is just the tip of the iceberg - basically I dont want to plan a route avoiding certain routes/areas. Is it just me -or has this crept up and bitten us on the bum? Another stealth tactic methinks.


----------



## Penquin

When Boris first was elected he was petitioned by many MH users and replied that "he would consider it and get back to us" (I still have the e-mail somewhere......), needless to say it has slipped his memory and he has not done anything at all about it. :evil:

He is a typical politician, says what he thinks hat will win support for the election and does nothing afterwards. :roll:

Our Kontiki is legal until January then illegal for the LEZ, exactly the same engine 12 months younger is compliant........ where is the sense or logic in that system. It is simply a fund-raising exercise IMO. 

Fitting a filter appears to have mixed results and even with one fitted the bureaucracy of TFL and DVLA together do not seem too be able to sort out approval - this has been reported on MHF before. :?

*Answer?* Avoid London unless you are driving a foreign registered MH when the rules do not apply apparently - there is no reciprocal transfer of data. So owners of EU reg vehicles will be able to drive with impunity into Central London as will lorries registered in the EU..... :lol:

Personally I do not want to venture into London and that gives me an excellent excuse to avoid the place.   

Dave

PS Check out this page for more details about responses;

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-564427.html#564427


----------



## locovan

Glandwr said:


> I think that you also have to use a approved contractor on the tfL's LEZ list to have the filter fitted. I found them once on the tfL's website.
> 
> Dick


No there are many now as the job is growing to fast as people have the letters and panic is setting in


----------



## locovan

Penquin said:


> When Boris first was elected he was petitioned by many MH users and replied that "he would consider it and get back to us" (I still have the e-mail somewhere......), needless to say it has slipped his memory and he has not done anything at all about it. :evil:
> 
> He is a typical politician, says what he thinks hat will win support for the election and does nothing afterwards. :roll:
> 
> Our Kontiki is legal until January then illegal for the LEZ, exactly the same engine 12 months younger is compliant........ where is the sense or logic in that system. It is simply a fund-raising exercise IMO.
> 
> Fitting a filter appears to have mixed results and even with one fitted the bureaucracy of TFL and DVLA together do not seem too be able to sort out approval - this has been reported on MHF before. :?
> 
> *Answer?* Avoid London unless you are driving a foreign registered MH when the rules do not apply apparently - there is no reciprocal transfer of data. So owners of EU reg vehicles will be able to drive with impunity into Central London as will lorries registered in the EU..... :lol:
> 
> Personally I do not want to venture into London and that gives me an excellent excuse to avoid the place.
> 
> Dave
> 
> PS Check out this page for more details about responses;
> 
> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-564427.html#564427


Err Dave he did his best to defer it to allow people to either buy newer vehicles or get the conversion so he deferred it by 2 years and now the letters are arriving the panic has set in.
Yes we did petition and in a way I saw the deferral as a bonus as I had written to the Euro Parliament under my human rights to drive my M/Home in London but they have made the ruling and we have to abide by the what the Euro says :evil: :evil:


----------



## locovan

I have asked a mod to combine this conversation with the original as we want to keep it together
Could a mod combine this conversation with
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-101504-lez.html


----------



## locovan

Mistemina said:


> Chigman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hymervanman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you live there I can't understand why you need to drive into the LEZ- either camp outside it and get the tube/train/bus in or go elsewhere - there are plenty of other places that would welcome your business. Perhaps then Boris would put LEZ where the sun don't shine............
> 
> 
> 
> I live in the London borough of Redbridge. I only ever want to travel away from London, never into it, I hate the bloody place anyway. I am only in the zone by about a hundred yards or so, so very frustrating as you can imaging. At the moment I am compliant, but one day soon i wont be. :evil:
> 
> Steve
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont go to London a lot ,but I can see that other areas will be affected. It looks like there are also parts of Europe - even motorways in Austria for example that will require an emissions certificate. This is just the tip of the iceberg - basically I dont want to plan a route avoiding certain routes/areas. Is it just me -or has this crept up and bitten us on the bum? Another stealth tactic methinks.
Click to expand...

Why have you received a letter then if you live in Sussex now that needs asking. 8O So it will be a while yet and they are then bringing in large cities into it but they will wait to see what happens in London first.


----------



## Mistemina

Steve[/quote] I don't go to London a lot ,but I can see that other areas will be affected. It looks like there are also parts of Europe - even motorways in Austria for example that will require an emissions certificate. This is just the tip of the iceberg - basically I dont want to plan a route avoiding certain routes/areas. Is it just me -or has this crept up and bitten us on the bum? Another stealth tactic methinks.[/quote]

Why have you received a letter then if you live in Sussex now that needs asking. 8O So it will be a while yet and they are then bringing in large cities into it but they will wait to see what happens in London first.[/quote]

I believe they have got our details from the DVLA. The only trips we have ever made within the Low Emission Zone (I saw the signs in Purley Way ,but didn't know what it meant) are when we go to Costco and Makro. We use the van so we can have a comfort stop after a heavy shop! Mind you we were asked politely to move on in Costco's car park once as they thought we wanted to stay the night!


----------



## Penquin

locovan said:


> I have asked a mod to combine this conversation with the original as we want to keep it together
> Could a mod combine this conversation with
> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-101504-lez.html


Two threads combined as they are directly related,

Dave

For the Mods team


----------



## locovan

Two bits from another Forum that are very helpfull

First check with the DVLA website, but fill out the long questionnaire, don't just put in your reg no.
When I entered my reg. no it said I was'nt compliant so I filled out the long form which said I was. Got on to VOSA who checked with LEZ and they came back and told me that LEZ had me down as 5000kg whereas in fact it is 3500kg.


That has happened time and time again infact I have a friend who is leaving it like that at 5000kg so he can give them hell when he gets a fine.:roll: 


Here is the contact details of a very helpful and knowledgeable lady at VOSA who may be able to help you further

She really knows her stuff on the LEZ and compliance issues.


VOSA - Anne Marie - direct line 01792 454363

And the protest meeting :wink: 
Protest at the Mayor's office
Wednesday 26th October 
1300 hrs - 1500 hrs 

We are now planning to protest 
outside the offices of 
Boris Johnson, 
City Hall
The Queen's Walk
London SE1 2AA.


----------



## Cheyenne614

*LEZ Protest meeting*

Locovan you are a mine of information. Many thanks for your efforts.

I will attend this meeting on the 26th October @ the Mayor's office. Will there be any meeting with the Mayor/TFL people or is it just a gathering to show how many are affected & how we feel?

Like Chigman said I don't use my motorhome to drive into London, I use it to drive out of London on my way to enjoy the rest of GB. At present I use my Cheyenne between 10 & 15 times a year, it's about 8 miles to exit the LEZ so 240 miles travelled on the outer limits of the LEZ. Many black cabs travel much more than that every day & I see a lot more visible pollution coming from them, particularly the older ones, than I ever see from my vehicle.

I agree that air pollution in London, & particularly central London should be reduced where possible but to place blanket legislation on all pre 2002 light commercial diesel engined vehicles without recognition of occasional users such as I is a very heavy handed approach.

As an instance of the inequalities of this legislation if you take 2 identical diesel engined Land Rovers both produced on the same day pre 2002 if 1 of them is a model which has windows fitted in it's model type it would not be subject to the LEZ legislation but the other one was a model that had solid sides it would be classed as a light commercial vehicle & would be subject to the legislation so requires modification.

I understand that certain other cities in Europe have addressed this issue of low users by allowing a limited number of journeys per annum before charges are made. The computer systems used to police the LEZ could easily be programmed to monitor the usage of each vehicle of low use types.

Sorry if this is off topic but for those who are interested I have my Cheyenne serviced & MOT's @ Fleetline Services in Croydon who, in my opinion, have proved to be both efficient & provide good value for money. They have good facilities for all types of vehicles including body repairs. Hopefully they will be able to repair the rear of my vehicle as someone drove into it when it was parked last Friday night. When having the estimate done I mentioned the LEZ issue & was told that they are approved installers of the Pirelli systems. I spoke @ length with the service manager about the various types available & he was very informative. As someone who spent 40 + years as a mechanic, foreman & service manager I know when someone is talking sense! I should get some quotes for both the additive type & filter type systems from them soon.


----------



## locovan

*Re: LEZ Protest meeting*



Cheyenne614 said:


> Locovan you are a mine of information. Many thanks for your efforts.
> 
> I will attend this meeting on the 26th October @ the Mayor's office. Will there be any meeting with the Mayor/TFL people or is it just a gathering to show how many are affected & how we feel?
> 
> Like Chigman said I don't use my motorhome to drive into London, I use it to drive out of London on my way to enjoy the rest of GB. At present I use my Cheyenne between 10 & 15 times a year, it's about 8 miles to exit the LEZ so 240 miles travelled on the outer limits of the LEZ. Many black cabs travel much more than that every day & I see a lot more visible pollution coming from them, particularly the older ones, than I ever see from my vehicle.
> 
> I agree that air pollution in London, & particularly central London should be reduced where possible but to place blanket legislation on all pre 2002 light commercial diesel engined vehicles without recognition of occasional users such as I is a very heavy handed approach.
> 
> As an instance of the inequalities of this legislation if you take 2 identical diesel engined Land Rovers both produced on the same day pre 2002 if 1 of them is a model which has windows fitted in it's model type it would not be subject to the LEZ legislation but the other one was a model that had solid sides it would be classed as a light commercial vehicle & would be subject to the legislation so requires modification.
> 
> I understand that certain other cities in Europe have addressed this issue of low users by allowing a limited number of journeys per annum before charges are made. The computer systems used to police the LEZ could easily be programmed to monitor the usage of each vehicle of low use types.
> 
> Sorry if this is off topic but for those who are interested I have my Cheyenne serviced & MOT's @ Fleetline Services in Croydon who, in my opinion, have proved to be both efficient & provide good value for money. They have good facilities for all types of vehicles including body repairs. Hopefully they will be able to repair the rear of my vehicle as someone drove into it when it was parked last Friday night. When having the estimate done I mentioned the LEZ issue & was told that they are approved installers of the Pirelli systems. I spoke @ length with the service manager about the various types available & he was very informative. As someone who spent 40 + years as a mechanic, foreman & service manager I know when someone is talking sense! I should get some quotes for both the additive type & filter type systems from them soon.


I just have felt this is so awful as M/Homes are driven out of London so residents can get away it is a leisure but I have always said the fine is very bad and they should run it like Germany but they wont listen to that.
The meeting is a protest and maybe Boris will come out and face the protesters and listen to them. Its mainly shop business people but it would be good if we could get Motorhomers there.


----------



## nicholsong

Mavis

You refer to the long questionaire on the DVLA website. On their site I can only find a link to Tfl.

Can you please help me navigate to the DVLA questionaire?

Geoff


----------



## locovan

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/roadusers/lez/check-by-type/default.aspx

I think this is the one Cheyenne614 is referring to have you tried it as so many M/Homes that have been told they dont comply when putting in a Reg now have put it into this and find they do comply.
So they are having to wait and see what happens on Jan 2012
I feel it is in such a muddle it has to be sorted.

There also is a lot of M/Homes that are non complient because they have a weight of 5000 instead of 3500 so another mistake.

When the chassis are built ie the truck they are registered by the supplier ie Fiat etc etc and then when they have the Conversion done they have to re registered and it seems there have been lots of mistakes on the weight at that point.


----------



## nicholsong

Mavis thanks.

I started using the questionaire but after the Q about first registration I got an Error on Server message.

Anyone else had that problem? Maybe it is only temporary.

Also, Tfl use the term 'Gross Vehicle Weight' which of course does not appear on the V5C. Am I right that this is a long outdated term? If so it shows even more lack of thought by this organisatioin.

Geoff


----------



## locovan

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/roadusers/lez/check-by-type/default.aspx

its running ok for me so what if you pm me all you details and I do it from here


----------



## nicholsong

Mavis 

Thanks. I just went in again and it works - must have been temporary glitch.

The result is so generic it would be no 'defence'

I will PM you soon in reply to yours.

Geoff


----------



## Jezport

I have been to visit family in the area. My Aunt and Uncles small cul-de-sac has a LEZ sign on the entry but the main road does not, I also realiseed that if I head one way to the M11 I can avoid the LEZ however it means that I cause more polution avoiding it than if I drove through the LEZ.

My van is over 3.5ton so I am caught by the legislation by my weight only, not my engine.

In my opinion motorhomes do such a small mileage within the LEZ and they are not used to carry goods they should be treated the same as a private car.


----------



## locovan

Jezport said:


> I have been to visit family in the area. My Aunt and Uncles small cul-de-sac has a LEZ sign on the entry but the main road does not, I also realiseed that if I head one way to the M11 I can avoid the LEZ however it means that I cause more polution avoiding it than if I drove through the LEZ.
> 
> My van is over 3.5ton so I am caught by the legislation by my weight only, not my engine.
> 
> In my opinion motorhomes do such a small mileage within the LEZ and they are not used to carry goods they should be treated the same as a private car.


Thats what I and others have been saying for 3 years now and got no where and yet Germany does treat over 3500 as a Leisure vehicle.
We class it as heavy goods.
The Minister of Transport says that the heavier you are the more power to move hence more Emissions.
I dont think that by Jan there wont be a road that hasnt got a camera so that isnt the answer :wink: 
The only answer is to down size your weight to 3.5 and risk they dont weigh you. :roll: 
Or re reg it in a foreign number plate :lol: :lol:


----------



## nicholsong

Mavis wrote:-

"The only answer is to down size your weight to 3.5 and risk they dont weigh you. :roll: "

Now where did you get that idea Mavis?


----------



## locovan

nicholsong said:


> Mavis wrote:-
> 
> "The only answer is to down size your weight to 3.5 and risk they dont weigh you. :roll: "
> 
> Now where did you get that idea Mavis?


 :lol: :lol: :lol: A good spokesman told me :lol: :lol: :lol:

It is what we have been saying as they have only just started talking about weight and not reg and it is catching so many people out -they have moved the boundaries. :evil:


----------



## cbrookson

Does it not cover foreign registered vehicles as well - so will hinder tourism?

My reading of the TFL Lez site seems to say it does, though I may have missed something!

Cheers


----------



## WingPete

*Blame culture*

Have read through the messages, and my thoughts are, if it is the fines from EC that Boris & UK Govmt are worried about, why not take the same stance as other EC countries where fines are applied for various non-compliance regulations, and just tell them that as an over populated country with more vehicles per national road mile than any other, we cannot comply nor pay the fines.


----------



## nicholsong

WingPete

You are starting to sound as though the population should have a voice over-and-above the un-elected bureaucrats in Bruxelles. 

Now be careful lad! The 'Thought Police' my be round to your place any day/night!

In a more serious response to your point:-

a) It was not initially a 'Boris' bit of legislation, it was a 'Ken" bit.

b) Any fines would be against the British Government, not London.

c) So why is London involved, unless there are a few Peerages and KBs involved?

Geoff


----------



## WingPete

*Un-Elected beaurocrats*

We had to fight hard against discriminatory legislation out of Brussels, when Herr Bangemann tried to force through laws to ban motorcyclists from having machines that had more than 100 bhp.
Many demonstration rides put a stop to that.
There are now moves from Brussels to prevent motorcyclists from modifying their machines in any way, so forcing the use of standard tyres as fitted new, no after market accessories, like changed saddles, screens, chains, silencers, panniers, etc.
Look out for demo rides on all M ways on 25th Sept.
It took a few hundred bikers to demonstrate the stupidity of toll fees for the Dartford crossing, which were removed. I was one of them.
So what I am saying is, us, the public, need to demonstrate the false claims made by beaurocrats, and make the policy makers take notice we are not here to obey their every whim and fancy.
Do we neeed to go back to the window tax to prove the stupidity of many of these eco-arguments that do not stand up to scrutiny.
Consultation is required under law. 
However, the results need not be considered as binding ! :twisted:


----------



## locovan

http://www.lowemissionzones.eu/countries-mainmenu-147/united-kingdom-mainmenu-205/london

Vehicle registration

Vehicles registered outside of Great Britain, including Northern Ireland need to register with TfL - Click here to register with TfL in English or visit the Euro Parking Collection website for a form in your chosen language, or call 0845 607 0009 or from abroad +44 (0) 207 310 8998.

BUT

If a foreign car or lorry comes into London and does not pay, then
drives straight to the port and back overseas. What happens?

TfL send the details to Euro Parking Collection, who have access to the 
vehicle databases of many (but not all)) EU countries. If they are not 
able to collect the fine, the vehicle is liable to be clamped if it 
returns to the LEZ or Congestion Zone without paying.

Yeh! I BET :roll:


----------



## raynipper

So most private motorhomes are not only paying the RFL but the LEZ of £100 a day..!!!!

Bloody madness. The whole system is moneygrabbing and nothing less.

Ray.


----------



## nicholsong

I probably should have asked this queestion when I first posted on the topic.

Has anyone traced through the legislation from the Act which empowers Tfl and on to the secondary legislation which governs its own powers?

If so, can somebody give me chapter and verse, please?

Geoff


----------



## locovan

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Agenda2809.pdf

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Board_papers_October_2007.pdf

I will PM the most important one as I cant shorten the link


----------



## locovan

Help someone on reading back on some of my notes and papers I begin to wonder just what the European parliament did say we had to do and Just how did Ken Livingstone come to decide on such a heavy fine :evil: :evil: :evil:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Agenda2809.pdf

The Strategic Review concluded that a scheme should be introduced through 
a Scheme Order which required HGVs, buses and coaches entering the LEZ 
to meet an emission standard of Euro III for particulates (PM10) in 2008 rising
to Euro IV for PM10 in 2010. This basic scheme should include the option of 
adding NOx abatement in 2010 if the certification processes are available, and 
could be extended to LGVs over 10 years old in 2010 subject to further 
analysis and decision. Details of the basic scheme and the optional additions
are described at Annex B. The estimated costs and health and environmental 
benefits of the basic scheme are summarised in Table 1 below. :evil: :evil: :evil:


----------



## locovan

http://www.lowemissionzones.eu/what-are-lezs--othermenu-32?start=9

This is a good one Geoff
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/parli...tu.do?language=en&id=73&ftuId=FTU_4.10.6.html


----------



## nicholsong

Mavis thanks for the above links.

They give a lot of insight into the thinking and the politics and justification behind the LEZ.

However I was looking to read the actual legislation involved. 

Obviously it starts with the authority of the GLA Act and the next that is mentioned is the alternative of making the Scheme.

I do want to read each level of legislation under which the various powers have been excercised, and then the final piece of legislation (the 'Scheme')

To date I have been unable to find the verbatim texts, only descriptions of the context thereof, which by definition is what the writer thinks is the law. I like to have the benefit of reading the legislatiion as passed.

When I had access to Lexus/Nexus and law libraries it would have been easy, but unless I am missing something, it is not so easy on the internet. Maybe I do not know the best way to search, having been a bit spoon-fed in the past. 

If you have any more pointers I would be grateful.

When you were pursuing this to the European Court did you have a lawyer's assistance or was it DIY? If no lawyer for that, has any lawyer looked at the problem to your knowledge?

I do not want to overload you personally at this time, so if there is anyone else who can help please refer me.

All Best

Geoff


----------



## locovan

Honest when it comes to the nitty gritty I cant find the the actual legislation.
I have searched everywhere that is available on the net.
I think the directive is in the files at the Mayor of Londons or the London Transport but I dont know.

This is the nearest I get http://ec.europa.eu/environment/air/quality/legislation/existing_leg.htm

My going to European parliament was solely off of my own back I didnt use lawyers as I was just trying to what happened if I went in under my Human rights to travel in London with my Motorhome but also that the fine London had set was gross and could they make a ruling that London used the same rules as Germany.

I sometimes wonder if it has really come from Europe. The idea might have but I still think Livingstone has a lot to answer to --am I wrong in thinking this way??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_low_emission_zone


----------



## nicholsong

Mavis 

OK that is clear.

I will have to track my own sources.

Geoff


----------



## Hymie

*Clean Diesel Technologies*

Hi,
I saw an article in the HCI magazine written by a member who had a filter fitted b the company below.

He quoted his only running coat at £50.00 for a litre of "Dosing Fluid" over a period of 10,000 miles.

He also suggested that the "Annual" cost originally estimated of £250 service for most types may be dependent on the supplier and may have to be considered when choosing whose system to be fitted.

I hope this may be of assistance to those affected.

http://www.cleandiesel.eu/

Happy Travels

Dave


----------



## Hymie

*Running Coat !*

I did of course mean Running Cost 

cheers


----------



## Trilleen

*LEZ protest @ Boris`s office.Wednesday 26th October 1300 hr*

Can I suggest that as this unfair retrospective legislation affects disparate groups MH`s, Land Rovers,small business`s with older vehicles and pick up trucks that if this protest is to be effective we need to be on the same page preferably Facebook. There has been a FB page here and I would urge people whatever their LEZ interest to sign up.

http://www.facebook.com/groups/201024383263602/

I would also like to take issue with the way TFL has effectively created a cartel to fit and monitor emission filters,there is no way that these would be costing £2k + if there was an open market solution and a fair way to address the emission problem would be to tighten existing MOT requirements and let owners find a solution in the market to address this either by filters or tuning.It is particularly unfair to exempt the older pre 93 diesel vehicles and all large petrol engined vehicles i.e. the most polluting in this legislation whilst penalising 93/2002 diesels most of which will already conform to Euro 3 emission standards which are quite stringent anyway.I feel there must be a legal challenge to this legislation and would be quite happy to contribute to a fighting fund if others are interested. If nothing is done I face the prospect of paying £2k+ and ongoing yearly charges for the privilege of doing less than 50 miles a year in the LEZ when I take my Camper Van in and out of London where we live just inside the Zone.


----------



## nicholsong

Trilleen

I am not sure, but maybe you are coming late to this problem. Even I was late in 2009, because by then it was almost a 'done-deal'.

I did some time ago suggest a mutual fund to fight the legislation, but got no positive response.

I tried to split the issue between those with residency within the LEZ and those outside, but it was decided that, on MHF, it should remain a single issue.

I am still personally fighting Tfl, who have to date not even given me the text of the legislation they intend to enforce.

You do not appear to have a PM facility on this site. Does that mean that you are not a subscriber? 

If not, I cannot be of no further help.

Geoff


----------



## Trilleen

nicholsong said:


> Trilleen
> 
> I am not sure, but maybe you are coming late to this problem. Even I was late in 2009, because by then it was almost a 'done-deal'.
> 
> I did some time ago suggest a mutual fund to fight the legislation, but got no positive response.
> 
> I tried to split the issue between those with residency within the LEZ and those outside, but it was decided that, on MHF, it should remain a single issue.
> 
> I am still personally fighting Tfl, who have to date not even given me the text of the legislation they intend to enforce.
> 
> You do not appear to have a PM facility on this site. Does that mean that you are not a subscriber?
> 
> If not, I cannot be of no further help.
> 
> Geoff


Hi Geoff yes late realising I had a problem in fact untill 2 months ago I was unaware that I had a problem,its seems to have been kept well below most peoples radar with very little coverage in the media. Now as you can guess I am very cross indeed.This legislation which will affect us will make absolutely no difference to air quality of which I am in favour but rather will further empower and enrich the coffers of the autocratic TFL & friends in the camera enforcement industry. Not a subscriber here yet but you can find me on FB Search Gar Eth to message me or find my posts on the FB LEZ protest site.

Regards Gareth


----------



## nicholsong

Gareth

I suggest that if you wish to access information and/or support on MHF you should subscribe, rather than using it to invite people to write elsewhere.

Geoff


----------



## locovan

I knew this would happen we have all been working on theis since the day we they realised it with Ken and I knew just a bit before that and still we havent reach everybody --what do you have to do to get the message across and now the signs are up and everything is in place 
Boris heard me and cancel it for 2 years --Im sorry you have missed it all and the Petitions I tried boy did I try :lol: :lol:


----------



## nicholsong

Mavis

I have not given up.

In fact I had a further, higher level, contact from Tfl.

Don't get too excited but watch this space.

Geoff


----------



## locovan

If you get somewhere I will give you a kiss and a meal out when you come back home xxxx


----------



## Trilleen

nicholsong said:


> Gareth
> 
> I suggest that if you wish to access information and/or support on MHF you should subscribe, rather than using it to invite people to write elsewhere.
> 
> Geoff


I appreciate that some posters on this thread have put in a huge effort which is greatly appreciated but my point is that because the main media has paid it scant attention and this is affecting many different groups one of which I forgot to mention is Horse boxes many of which are older low mileage vehicles the protest has lacked focus which is why I suggested getting people on the same page to support any protest organised by other people affected by this draconian legislation.Berating me to subscribe would indicate a desire to increase subscriptions rather than further the main thrust of this thread which is to protest against the LEZ.


----------



## SomersetSteve

I hadn't thought I'd want/need to go in the LEZ but something came up and I realized that it was a possibility, looking at the TfL site the restriction appears to apply only to over 3.5t vehicles - mine is 2.8t. When I went further into the TfL site it said I was affected because it it between 2.5 and 3.5t, so my question is does it apply to me?


----------



## Phil42

Steve,

Others will know a lot more about this than me but somewhere (I think the TfL site) you can put your reg in and it will tell yo whether your vehicle is compliant. I know because I've done it. It said that mine, at 3300 is O.K. so depending on age yours may well be the same.

Phil


----------



## Trilleen

SomersetSteve said:


> I hadn't thought I'd want/need to go in the LEZ but something came up and I realized that it was a possibility, looking at the TfL site the restriction appears to apply only to over 3.5t vehicles - mine is 2.8t. When I went further into the TfL site it said I was affected because it it between 2.5 and 3.5t, so my question is does it apply to me?


If you checked the compliance by entering your reg in the tfl site and it said your vehicle does not comply then your reg is already on the compliance database so yes it does apply.

You will however get one free visit to the zone i.e the first one and then if the compliance cameras pick you up which they will you will get a letter from tfl saying your vehicle does not comply and gives you 28 days to comply or arrange compliance after 28 days your vehicle will then be fined if it is still being used in the zone £500 a day I think from memory.However if your visit is less than 28 days and you do not intend to return to the zone you will be ok.


----------



## nicholsong

Gareth (Trilleen)

Re subscribing:-

I did not 'Berate' you, I 'suggested'.

I get no benefit from increase in subscriptions any more than any other MHF Member, in that the Forum would not exist if those of us that use did not contribute to the running costs. We all also benefit from a lot of time spent by the organisers and voluntary staff.

We tolerate visitors who drop in to read for free, but I believe that anybody wishing to use the Forum to promote whatever vested interest they represent should be willing to enter the spirit of mutual cooperation and contribution.

I believe a lot of Members will feel the same. 

Any action to remove those abusing the Forum will obviously be for those policing it.

I personally shall not be responding to any further post from this poster.

Geoff


----------



## Antonia

*Question*

Do you have to pay the charge if your engine is off and you are under tow in and out of the zone?
Just a thought.

Regards

Antonia


----------



## locovan

*Re: Question*



Antonia said:


> Do you have to pay the charge if your engine is off and you are under tow in and out of the zone?
> Just a thought.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Antonia


The vehicle has to be driven into the LEZ not towed so brill idea --all go to the same rally and tow from home and back :lol: :lol:


----------



## locovan

Trilleen said:


> SomersetSteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hadn't thought I'd want/need to go in the LEZ but something came up and I realized that it was a possibility, looking at the TfL site the restriction appears to apply only to over 3.5t vehicles - mine is 2.8t. When I went further into the TfL site it said I was affected because it it between 2.5 and 3.5t, so my question is does it apply to me?
> 
> 
> 
> If you checked the compliance by entering your reg in the tfl site and it said your vehicle does not comply then your reg is already on the compliance database so yes it does apply.
> 
> You will however get one free visit to the zone i.e the first one and then if the compliance cameras pick you up which they will you will get a letter from tfl saying your vehicle does not comply and gives you 28 days to comply or arrange compliance after 28 days your vehicle will then be fined if it is still being used in the zone £500 a day I think from memory.However if your visit is less than 28 days and you do not intend to return to the zone you will be ok.
Click to expand...

On here we have been fighting for the residents who have the Zone at the end of their road.
If you drive in then thats your responsibility London can be avoided as there are sites outside the Zone and you could come in on the Train etc etc we are working for the residents


----------



## locovan

Phil42 said:


> Steve,
> 
> Others will know a lot more about this than me but somewhere (I think the TfL site) you can put your reg in and it will tell yo whether your vehicle is compliant. I know because I've done it. It said that mine, at 3300 is O.K. so depending on age yours may well be the same.
> 
> Phil


http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/17700.aspx


----------



## SomersetSteve

locovan said:


> Phil42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Others will know a lot more about this than me but somewhere (I think the TfL site) you can put your reg in and it will tell yo whether your vehicle is compliant. I know because I've done it. It said that mine, at 3300 is O.K. so depending on age yours may well be the same.
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/17700.aspx
Click to expand...

I finally found where I was going wrong on the TfL site, it now depends on whether my Ducato is compliant or not as obviously vehicles registered prior to the cut off date may have been or not. I've e-mailed Fiat, we shall see it due course.


----------



## Antonia

*Tow*

I just thought, for those unfortunate folks that are trapped just inside the zone, that they could get a mate to tow them out and back again for a few quid. When they wanted to go on holiday. Maybe some enterprising person could set up a business doing it 

Regards

Antonia


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## locovan

*Re: Tow*



Antonia said:


> I just thought, for those unfortunate folks that are trapped just inside the zone, that they could get a mate to tow them out and back again for a few quid. When they wanted to go on holiday. Maybe some enterprising person could set up a business doing it
> 
> Regards
> 
> Antonia


It is a great idea the AA could provide a service or someone -Tow a Truck --you might have something here :wink:


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## SomersetSteve

> On here we have been fighting for the residents who have the Zone at the end of their road.
> If you drive in then thats your responsibility London can be avoided as there are sites outside the Zone and you could come in on the Train etc etc we are working for the residents


I appreciate that but I was actually looking at being able to drop kit off at a charity whilst passing around the M25 - somewhat cheaper option than paying DHL. I physically couldn't carry it on the bus or train so it may finish up being dumped.


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## locovan

SomersetSteve said:


> On here we have been fighting for the residents who have the Zone at the end of their road.
> If you drive in then thats your responsibility London can be avoided as there are sites outside the Zone and you could come in on the Train etc etc we are working for the residents
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate that but I was actually looking at being able to drop kit off at a charity whilst passing around the M25 - somewhat cheaper option than paying DHL. I physically couldn't carry it on the bus or train so it may finish up being dumped.
Click to expand...

Yes thats the sort of thing that it is bad for so it will be cheaper now to post it.
I have friends that cant visit family well just not pop off the M25 on the way home from rallies etc etc but this is going to happen in other cities when they see how much money it raises.
But I still say they could have run it like Germany etc its this fine in the UK that is so wrong £100 in and £100 out its to nasty


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## antpurley

Our motorhome is now sadly up for sale as we just cannot afford the Lez charges when they come in. Its so sad because we only live just inside by 100 meters or so and never go into London. 
We didn't get anywhere with TFL or Boris or our MP 

Our was registered March 06 had it been later in the year we would of been ok.


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## 96299

antpurley said:


> Our motorhome is now sadly up for sale as we just cannot afford the Lez charges when they come in. Its so sad because we only live just inside by 100 meters or so and never go into London.
> We didn't get anywhere with TFL or Boris or our MP
> 
> Our was registered March 06 had it been later in the year we would of been ok.


I'm in exactly the same position as you regarding being in the LEZ by a hundred meters or so but, luckily bought our's in 2007.

I feel for you, so frustrating and unfair.

Steve


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## smiler

I have just returned from a 5 month trip, can someone please confirm where the protest meetiing is to be held in London next week. Also is there a pre arranged meeting place for MHF members. Thanks Smiler


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## Jezport

Its a shame people go out stealing metal for scrap value. Wouldn't it be terrible if all these 100s of metal LEZ signs that are so vulnerable to an angle grinder were to be stolen. Then we wouldn't be able to tell where the zone starts :twisted:


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## spatz1

Jezport said:


> Its a shame people go out stealing metal for scrap value. Wouldn't it be terrible if all these 100s of metal LEZ signs that are so vulnerable to an angle grinder were to be stolen. Then we wouldn't be able to tell where the zone starts :twisted:


or god forbid those pesky criminals tampered with your number plate.....


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## smiler

would someone please confirm date time and place of the protest rally next week
Thanks Smiler


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## nicholsong

THERE MAY BE A SOLUTION TO MH PROBLEMS IN THE LEZ

Do not hold your breaths, but also do not spend money on a filter, not just yet.

Nor sell the MH - you in Purley know who I mean, anyway I would push it down the road to avoid the LEZ.

I don't want to be too optimistic but I would hate any of you to spend money unnecessarily.

I will post again.

Geoff


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## jo662

Jezport said:


> Its a shame people go out stealing metal for scrap value. Wouldn't it be terrible if all these 100s of metal LEZ signs that are so vulnerable to an angle grinder were to be stolen. Then we wouldn't be able to tell where the zone starts :twisted:


Thats one of the problems with LEZ filters because of all the valuable metals used to make them,they are very pinchable(is that a word).


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## PILOTEFAN

Although we are less than 100 meters in the zone I can not see any cameras (yet) so fingers crossed we will get a way with it for at least a while.

BUT I love the idea of towing, this will defo be an option for us if they do put in some cameras as I love our old van but no way could I afford the 2k cost to fit her out.


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## Jezport

*LEZ Protest*

I have read that they have moved the time on the 26th protest to 11.30am until 2pm. This is because the recovery industry will be there handing in a letter. They will have some support and also a London Mayor candidate for next year will be there too. Lawrence Webb from UKIP who also doesn't like the low emission zone.


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## sallytrafic

I posted this in another LEZ thread but thought it worth repeating here:

Today's Guardian ran a full page about the problems of campervans inside the LEZ.

First time I've seen a national paper mention it.

Here is a link to the online version >LEZ Guardian<


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## locovan

sallytrafic said:


> I posted this in another LEZ thread but thought it worth repeating here:
> 
> Today's Guardian ran a full page about the problems of campervans inside the LEZ.
> 
> First time I've seen a national paper mention it.
> 
> Here is a link to the online version >LEZ Guardian<


There has been so much written in the years since this all started Frank and we started a petition in 2008 we are fighting very quietly in the back ground loads of letters went between Ken and then Boris and Euro Parliament.
Geoff has been the first person to be able to sort all my collective info and he has been a brick when I had almost given up.
The Guardian has written a good piece though as we still need to bring it to peoples attention of people that are resident or travel in the Zone they need to get a conversion or store outside London.


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## antpurley

Well we struck while the iron was hot and sold our lovely mh all due to the LEZ, we got a good price so now looking for something preferably with a fixed bed, around the same price as we sold and ensuring it meets LEZ, so hopefully we won't be away from mhoming for too long...bit of a bummer selling half term means we cannot go away now..poor planning but gives us some spare time to look around. Good luck to those fighting the LEZ we wish you well.
Mandy


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## nicholsong

Mandy

Sorry you had to take the drastic action of selling.

From where you lived I think I would have 'winged' it via the side roads, at least until I got a fine, and then sold.

But action taken and I hope you will not be without a MH for too long.

I am still fighting the cause, but it is easier for me because I will not be coming back for a few months, and I can still creep in under 3.5t.

Best of Luck!

Geoff


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## sebastiand

*motorhome chit chat LEZ zone*

Hi Although I am based in Inverness I do have occasion to go into central London with my 2002 4 tonne Hymer. I have received the same information.

My van actually runs at 3.6 tonne when absolutely fully loaded.

A question occurred to me about the over 3.5 tonne rule. What would be the effect of downgrading the total mass of the van to under 3.5 tonne, as one sometimes has to do when approaching the magic age of 70 ?


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## locovan

Some one tell me if Im wrong but 2002 wouldnt comply anyway no matter what weight !!!


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## nicholsong

Mavis

I have just re-checked and LEZ say Motorcaravans weighing between 2.5-3.5t registered before 1.1.2002 will be non-compliant, but those registered after that date are presumed to comply, as being Euro III compliant.

So if poster's MH was registered after 1.1.2002 downplates to 3.5t he should be OK.

Geoff


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## nicholsong

WARNING!

This just a reminder, for those who do know, and a warning for those who do not know:-

Tomorrow, 3rd Jan, is the implementation date for the new stricter emissions requirements for the LEZ, for diesel engines in vehicles both below and above 3500kg.

It is all well-documented and referenced above.

No prizes for the first Member to post that they have been fined! - but sympathies! 

Geoff


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## locovan

Has anyone had a letter or fine yet ???

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16383559


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## nicholsong

Mavis

No mention of MHs by anyone in the BBC piece then! There minimal contribution to pollution may have looked ridiculous maybe?

Geoff


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## locovan

I have googled and there is no Mention of News about the LEZ ---why so quiet??

Motorhomes are listed on the DVL site though so they do come under it :wink:


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## Brownfools

Possibly it's so quiet because TfL have made such a dogs breakfast of administering their records.
Part way through the process they changed their service provider. According to a letter from TfL to a motorhome owner (see Caravan Club Magazine letters page, April 2011) "Transfer of data had not been properly passed on".

How right they are! I have a certificate of compliance from TfL for our Hymer. But a registration search on the TfL website shows the vehicle as non compliant.

They will have to be VERY careful who they take to court. Someone like me will be seeking substantial damages for malicious prosecution.

I could do with boosting my retirement fund!


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## Taffatheart

We are currently looking for a suitable MH which fits LEZ regs because our trusty ol' Duetto doesn't comply. This is going to hit our pockets but we want the option (being British, taxpaying, road fund licence paying, citizens) of being able to visit lovely London without getting hammered every time. On the other hand, I have a relatively new, struggling to get off the ground, business and until I can find a suitable camper, cannot now attend any shows or events in London, as £100 per day is the equivalent of doubling the pitch fees! (We use the camper as the tow vehicle and 'home' when away). How many others will be affected in the same way, will no longer exhibit or trade in London and what is likely to be the knock-on effect for everyone, whether inner, outer or nowhere near London? 
Pardon my dimness, I've no doubt missed the vital thread, but is MHF collating all members' support and going for the jugular on this one?


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## Glandwr

Taffatheart said:


> We are currently looking for a suitable MH which fits LEZ regs because our trusty ol' Duetto doesn't comply. This is going to hit our pockets but we want the option (being British, taxpaying, road fund licence paying, citizens) of being able to visit lovely London without getting hammered every time. On the other hand, I have a relatively new, struggling to get off the ground, business and until I can find a suitable camper, cannot now attend any shows or events in London, as £100 per day is the equivalent of doubling the pitch fees! (We use the camper as the tow vehicle and 'home' when away). How many others will be affected in the same way, will no longer exhibit or trade in London and what is likely to be the knock-on effect for everyone, whether inner, outer or nowhere near London?
> Pardon my dimness, I've no doubt missed the vital thread, but is MHF collating all members' support and going for the jugular on this one?


I think there are after market modifications if your present van is not too old. 2-3 grand I think from memory should imagine they are getting cheaper though.

Dick


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## Stanner

Taffatheart said:


> We are currently looking for a suitable MH which fits LEZ regs because our trusty ol' Duetto doesn't comply.


Just buy something (anything?) with a petrol engine because (apparently) petrol engines never ever pollute the air. :roll:


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## nicholsong

OR

The cameras and computer could not cope with the volume of information collection and processing for all the petrol-driven cars.


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## Stanner

nicholsong said:


> OR
> 
> The cameras and computer could not cope with the volume of information collection and processing for all the petrol-driven cars.


Congestion zone and speed cameras manage it OK.

Diesels are probably more numerous across the the whole range of road vehicles now.


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## smiler

To day i received an e mail from Tomsett suppliers and fitters of DPF systems stating that due to a lack of demand that Clean Diesel Technologies are scaling back supplies of the filters and that the price will increase from 20th jan from £1395 to £1695 + vat


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## nicholsong

smiler said:


> To day i received an e mail from Tomsett suppliers and fitters of DPF systems stating that due to a lack of demand that Clean Diesel Technologies are scaling back supplies of the filters and that the price will increase from 20th jan from £1395 to £1695 + vat


Interesting!

What if all filter manufacturers found it uneconomical to continue?

It could happen, because the wider market of commercial vehicle operators may have already swapped or retired their vehicles or have already fitted a filter, as have some MH owners.

This would only leave a decreasing residue of private owners, like myself, who have not swapped or fitted filters, and this residue may not constitute a viable 'market'.

If there were no suppliers, I cannot see how Tfl could legitimately enforce the legislation and I doubt whether a court could uphold a fine.

I am not sure whether I am 'clutching at straws' or 'seeing a light at the end of the tunnel'

Any opinions?

Geoff


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## Brownfools

Now, what was I saying?
Oh yes! 


Brownfools said:


> I have a certificate of compliance from TfL for our Hymer. But a registration search on the TfL website shows the vehicle as non compliant.




So today I get a letter from TfL stating that my vehicle has been seen driving within the Low Emission Zone. It goes on to tell me I will be issued with a PCN (Penalty Charge Notice) for £1000 if my vehicle does not meet the Standards within 28 days.

As this is a family forum I wont say what I really think of Totalitarianism for Luddites (TfL) other than to say that I've always considered them to be an organisation not fit for purpose!

D.


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## nicholsong

Brownfools said:


> Now, what was I saying?
> Oh yes!
> 
> 
> Brownfools said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a certificate of compliance from TfL for our Hymer. But a registration search on the TfL website shows the vehicle as non compliant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So today I get a letter from TfL stating that my vehicle has been seen driving within the Low Emission Zone. It goes on to tell me I will be issued with a PCN (Penalty Charge Notice) for £1000 if my vehicle does not meet the Standards within 28 days.
> 
> As this is a family forum I wont say what I really think of Totalitarianism for Luddites (TfL) other than to say that I've always considered them to be an organisation not fit for purpose!
> 
> D.
Click to expand...

That is interesting.

Why did Tfl not just issue a PCN rather than giving you 28 days to comply?

Are Tfl :

1 Not sure of the accuracy of their database?

2 Not sure of their systems?

3 Somebody at Tfl has shares in a filter supplier/fitter?

Geoff


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## Brownfools

So.... I phone Totalitarianism for Luddites.

The call was over seven minutes. I had posted some detail to this post. But, following advice that that contravened the Data protection act (thanks Saddletramp!) I have removed the quotes.

However, in general terms, I called them wanting to know why TfL had sent me this letter when the vehicle is compliant?
They claimed that it was because the DVLA records did not show the weight of the vehicle. This despite the fact that the lady had already quoted me the weight and it is shown on my V5C

TfL wanted me to register with them - clearly unaware that I had already done so.

They clearly had no record of my account or the compliance certificate.

But what wound me up was the repeated assertion the I'VE got 28 days to sort it out!
I do everything right - they foul-up. And I've got to do something about it! 

Edit to comply with legislation (removal of quotes)


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## ched999uk

So they admit that they don't know the weight and are 'guessing' !!!!!
Almost sounds like they are trying to obtain money by deception!

I know it's a hassle but I would be tempted to sent them a data protection act request to see all the information they have on your vehicle. Then when they send it with wrong information, inform them of their inaccuracies and _they _then have 28 days to correct it I believe. Send it registered.

That way if they ever try it on again go to court as they are then also in breach of the data protection act for not keeping accurate information.

Complete shambles but then again what do you expect when they give it to the lowest price tender!!!!


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## Brownfools

Hi all,
I've seen no posts on this topic for ages. So, to update everyone, I've had a few PCNs (Penalty Charge Notices) at £250 a time, going up to £500 if not paid... then £750... etc.
This looks like it will end up in court. I hope the bench award me decent damages against them.
The full story (and documents - are you looking T_f_L)are now on a dedicated page on my website.
I may be able to afford to take treat you to a drink at the next rally, Mavis!

David.


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## Penquin

Interesting last post......

where is your web site so that we all can see these documents?

If we find it hard to locate them, would TfL also claim the same ?

By making it clear where they are, would you be helping yourself by being open with the details?

Dave


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## locovan

http://www.brownfools.co.uk/

Scroll down to the LEZ and then scroll all the way down to see Documents Dave

Love it ---- of all people to pick on and to get it wrong --go man go :lol: :lol:


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## Penquin

Thanks Mavis, 

those documents are VERY clear IMO, I somehow doubt that their (TfL's ) reputation will remain unscathed.......

Dave


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## Brownfools

Thanks for steering Penquin in the right direction, Mavis.
I missed his post.
But, in my defence, he did post during MOTD!

David.


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## cbrookson

Why not, before the case, report them to the Information Commissioner for keeping inaccurate records?

The fourth data protection principle requires personal data to be accurate. See
http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisat...le_6/correcting_inaccurate_personal_data.aspx

It's free and you can do it onlne ..........
http://www.ico.gov.uk/complaints/handling.aspx

Cheers


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## Brownfools

Thanks for the info and links, cbrookson.

It's a pity that they cannot award compensation. And, frankly, for the way they (T_f_L) have behaved I'm looking for some recompense for the time and money that I've spent on all this!
What this does highlight is that T_f_L may have acted illegally in the way that they have awarded the first contract.
It's probably self defeating to pay out for legal advice on this - but I'm tempted.
How much is a principal worth?

David.


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## Stanner

Brownfools said:


> Thanks for the info and links, cbrookson.
> 
> It's a pity that they cannot award compensation. And, frankly, for the way they (T_f_L) have behaved I'm looking for some recompense for the time and money that I've spent on all this!
> What this does highlight is that T_f_L may have acted illegally in the way that they have awarded the first contract.
> It's probably self defeating to pay out for legal advice on this - but I'm tempted.
> How much is a principal worth?
> 
> David.


About the same as a principle :wink:


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## Jean-Luc

Brownfools said:


> So.... I phone Totalitarianism for Luddites.
> 
> The call was over seven minutes. I had posted some detail to this post. But, following advice that that contravened the Data protection act (thanks Saddletramp!) I have removed the quotes.
> 
> However, in general terms, I called them wanting to know why TfL had sent me this letter when the vehicle is compliant?
> They claimed that it was because the DVLA records did not show the weight of the vehicle. This despite the fact that the lady had already quoted me the weight and it is shown on my V5C
> 
> TfL wanted me to register with them - clearly unaware that I had already done so.
> 
> They clearly had no record of my account or the compliance certificate.
> 
> But what wound me up was the repeated assertion the I'VE got 28 days to sort it out!
> I do everything right - they foul-up. And I've got to do something about it!
> 
> Edit to comply with legislation (removal of quotes)


Some shambles for a country which considers itself to be a leading light of the G5 nations.

Reading the trials and tribulations posted on other threads by UK residents as they try to deal with the bureaucratic inefficiencies of the DVLA and TfL both organisations seem to be substantially 'not fit for purpose'.

To see such codology give me renewed respect for our equivalent of the DVLA and thank God we have not yet got involved with LEZ's on 'the ould sod'


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## nicholsong

J-L wrote

"... thank God we have not yet got involved with LEZ's on 'the ould sod' "

I think the Irish people would have seen Red Ken coming a long way off :wink: 

Geoff


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## Brownfools

Yes, Jean-Luc. There's a wonderful feeling of freedom from worry and harrassment when driving in Ireland.
Prew and I have bought a lovely property there with a view to emigrating. (She already has - I'm still trying to find employment there).
Just being able to park at the local DIY centre (Woodies in Wexford) without having to worry that some cowboy is going to slap a penalty charge notice on the van for taking up more than one space (B&Q in Beckton, East London!) is priceless.
And Geoff, Yes. The people of Ireland wouldn't stand for this nonsense. So why, I wonder, do we???

David.


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## locovan

Brownfools said:


> Yes, Jean-Luc. There's a wonderful feeling of freedom from worry and harrassment when driving in Ireland.
> Prew and I have bought a lovely property there with a view to emigrating. (She already has - I'm still trying to find employment there).
> Just being able to park at the local DIY centre (Woodies in Wexford) without having to worry that some cowboy is going to slap a penalty charge notice on the van for taking up more than one space (B&Q in Beckton, East London!) is priceless.
> And Geoff, Yes. The people of Ireland wouldn't stand for this nonsense. So why, I wonder, do we???
> 
> David.


I did try to fight it honest :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Brownfools

This is a first draft of (what I hope will be the final) letter back to T_f_L LEZ
All input welcomed! 

Your Ref: L501889494

Dear Mr(s) N Crockwell,

I am in receipt of your letter of 6th March 2013.

When the London Low Emission Zone (LLEZ) was first introduced my vehicle X683 CNO was erroneously shown as non-compliant on the TfL website. As a result I was compelled to obtain evidence from the vehicle manufacturer of its compliance with the emission standards and to send this evidence to your organistion (TfL LEZ).
I would point out that these actions were at my expense and that TfL LEZ offered no recompense for this expense or inconvenience.

Subsequent to this evidence being passed to TfL LEZ, a certificate of compliance was issued by your organisation (reference as above) confirming the vehicle as compliant.

Despite all of the above I have been subject to numerous letters and penalty charge notices from your organisation all relating to this vehicle. On each occasion I have either telephoned (and recorded the call) or returned relevant part of the communication with details of the certificate reference.

In your letter of 6th March 2013 you ask for "additional evidence" and the need to "reconsider this evidence".
Your organisation has already received from me all the required documentation and has certified the vehicle as compliant. Please explain why you feel that there is any need to "reconsider"?

I have had more than enough of this continuing persecution and harassment from your organisation. I expect this to cease immediately.

In this regard, I require confirmation from your organisation of the following points by return of post.
1)	That all LLEZ penalty charge notices relating to the above vehicle have been rescinded.
2)	That your records are full and complete in regards to the compliance status of the above vehicle.
3)	That TfL LEZ have complied fully with the provisions of the Data Protection Act with regard to the retention and storage of this data.
I would also expect an explanation of the reasons for these continual lapses and a full apology for the inconvenience and further expense that I have been subjected to.

In the event that your records are incomplete, please furnish me with a full explanation of the reasons for this in order that I may take this up with the Information Commissioners office.

A copy of this letter will be sent to my London Assembly Member and may subsequently be produced in evidence in any legal action against TfL LEZ.

Yours sincerely,


David.


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## Jean-Luc

Send it Registered Post and add the proof of delivery and the recorded name of who signed for it to your file on the matter.


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## nicholsong

locovan said:


> Brownfools said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Jean-Luc. There's a wonderful feeling of freedom from worry and harrassment when driving in Ireland.
> Prew and I have bought a lovely property there with a view to emigrating. (She already has - I'm still trying to find employment there).
> Just being able to park at the local DIY centre (Woodies in Wexford) without having to worry that some cowboy is going to slap a penalty charge notice on the van for taking up more than one space (B&Q in Beckton, East London!) is priceless.
> And Geoff, Yes. The people of Ireland wouldn't stand for this nonsense. So why, I wonder, do we???
> 
> David.
> 
> 
> 
> I did try to fight it honest :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

I am still fighting it Mavis - meanwhile I think I know a route to my house which is not monitored :wink:

How are you - maybe PM?

Geoff


----------



## Brownfools

It's taken a lot of letters, a compliance acknowledgement - that TfL subsequently backtracked on as a "processing error", a Freedom of Information request, and half an hour with a solicitor but..... after five (and a bit) years TfL have finally admitted, in writing, that they lost my data.
They have, at last, agreed that my vehicle is compliant, updated their systems to reflect this, cancelled all penalty charge notices issued to me and...
written me a cheque for the "inconvenience, distress and costs incurred".

Also this week, my son went for a job interview. So I may be dreaming all this! 8)

Thanks to all those who offered wise words.

David.


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## Conal

*petrol engine alternative*

I have been following this thread since the beginning. I travel into London every week but had a Euro IV motorhome at the time and so was not directly threatened.
Due to unrelated circumstances I chose to sell but purchased another in December 2012.
I could not afford a brand new vehicle and was worried that even a newish diesel engine would soon be subject to fines, so have purchased a 20 year old petrol engined Talbot Express (Peugeot) and fitted LPG to get an the equivalent of around 30mpg. The only real disadvantage I have found is the lack of power on steep inclines. 
The reason I have posted is to ask if others changed to (older) petrol engined motorhomes rather than give up completely?

Conal


----------

