# M/H classed as goods vehicle ?



## Codfinger (Jan 11, 2008)

Hi all, Ive just been looking thro a back copy of Motor caravan and noticed an article about MOT's it says that a motor caravan becomes a living van if any goods are carried inside that are non essential to living, for example a motorbike in a garage.
All living vans also come under the umbrella of goods vehicles.
If you fall into this category the certificate you need depends on the weight of your vehicle. If its under 3000kg you can continue with a class IV mot test, however if its between 3000-3500kg you must have a class VII test, and if its over 3500kg you need a goods vehicle test every year.
It also says that sports equipment such as surfboards or pushbikes are not considered as goods but motorbikes are.

Has anyone seen this before? our M/H is 3850kg and we have a scooter in the garage should I be worried?

Chris


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Just search MHF for living AND goods; the subject is well covered with references.

Not a problem, particularly if you remove the scooter! Basically it is up to you to declare what is goods (and the police/ courts to tell you you called it wrongly ....), but it is best not to make an incredible claim in front of a picky MOT tester! 

Dave


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

Codfinger said:


> our M/H is 3850kg and we have a scooter in the garage should I be worried?
> 
> Chris


Well no, that is not unless you get involved in an accident and the other party has a particularly clever lawyer................. :wink:


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## arh (Dec 8, 2007)

Don't be worried about going to an HGV test centre, I go and have my m/h tested at one every year, it's the best and most impartial test you'll ever get. The Living van business is aimed at the truck type m/h which go to race meetings etc. but go down to the Test centre and ask them, they'll give you the best and most honest answers. Plus you get to stay with the m/h as it's being tested, in fact you have to stay with it, how many privte testers let you do that.


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## marnaz (Jun 24, 2009)

Hi

After reading another members comments, I for one will be using the VOSA or Local HGV test centre from now on. As pointed out they have no interest in looking for MOT repair work from you, and are used to testing the bigger vehicles. 

Our MH was taxed PLG that was done by the DVLA on the info they had when first registered. After the tax disc was queried by the police on a garage forecourt, we since found out from the DVLA form of tax classes DL 149 I think it was the PLG class is ok up to 3500kg and was priced at 190 pounds. after 3500kg it falls into there HGV bands next one was a 3500kg to 12000kg band costing us less at 165pounds a year (our RV was 7.2ton GVW) and we ended up taxing it as 'PRIVATE HGV' They did not seemed concerned what we carried as long as it was not for reward as then we would not qualify for 'PRIVATE'

I think the are so many people with different answers all we can do is post ours and see if any common concerns pan out.

No disrespect to our forum but questions asked only really get the correct answers (as they should) but sometimes if you read and follow everything to the letter you might find your self thinking why did I buy a MH..

Marnaz


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Thanks to DABurghleigh for the reference to searching on MHF for "living AND goods". I hope you other posters have done the same. There I found the definitive answers to most of the queries in my head- on this subject at least- and particular thanks to Sprokit, who is a M/H owner and works for VOSA, but came in undeservedly for flack for just helping out with clarifying the law.

I have just bought a S/H M/H and I was looking at this problem. 
I now understand the position to be as follows,

My vehicle (Fiat Ducato Maxi chassis) was manufactured for a Max permissible weight of 3850kg

It has always been documented on the V5 and taxed as an Private HGV, which would be normal in accordance with the original base vehicle.

The discussion about the "Living Van" issue and the need to have a Goods MoT, even if carrying a scooter, seems to have been clarified and normal Class IV MoT is appropriate.

So far so good.

However, my VIN plate is for Max Permissible of 3500kg. I do not know if this was the original (maybe the factory had a policy of doing this for UK vehicles in case the dealer wanted to sell it to a pot-1997 driver) or maybe another owner had it down-plated in the erroneous belief tha he was avoiding a Goods MoT.

I assume that were I stopped at a VOSA check and in excess of 3500kg that despite the manufacturer's specification and the V5 details I would be considered illegal, albeit not unsafe, if above 3500 but under 3850kg.

If so, I assume therefore need to get a new VIN plate? If so how? I think I have read somewher that it can be obtained from the manufacturer, in this case German, for free or a small fee-not the 200 quid or so some people have been paying-after all it only takes someone to look at the government approved weights and print out a new one.

If my understanding is incorrect please put me right.
And advice on best way to get new VIN plate would be appreciated

If Sprokit reads this I am sure he will have the answer.

Thanks in advance 

Geoff


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## loddy (Feb 12, 2007)

I dislike people who use words like PICKY when talking about MOT testers.

They have guidlines to work to and if they ( that includes me) make the wrong desicion the picky know it all presenter will soon take the matter further ( VOSA ) . Which in turn wastes time and money.

My advise is when presenting your motorhome for test keep lockers locked and obviousley take the kwacker off the back.

Loddy


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## marnaz (Jun 24, 2009)

As an ex MOT tester Im thankful I never came across this type of problem. As you say even years ago, the are guidelines to work to. You can always appeal if you think your test was 'unfair' Like the above post the word PICKY might have been a poor choice of words, for some one that is merely doing his job. The test is there for safety after all. If a component fails, then it is usually worn, broken. Some items are designed to have a 'free play' tolerance, but what is deemed excessive? Im aware that some testers may be less demanding in how they see the guidelines. But as the last post said, Ide echo. Empty lockers or keep them locked, Try if you can to clean the underside of excess mud when presenting your vehicle for test. Im not able to comment on the plate thing, but I would imagine the authorities would go with the info on your VIN plate, may be the body makers used a chassis giving them a degree of lee way by using a chassis that is designed for a max of 3800kg.
Best of luck trying to see if your VIN plate can be 'upgraded' by the makers of your MH


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Well, as the author of PICKY whose use has been challenged, please read this post of mine:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-186816.html#186816
and the reference quoted therein:
http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-mot.shtml
and explain to this motorhomer why such matters are unambiguous, because they most certainly are not! It is a grey area subject to OPINION, that even DfT acknowledge with their amazing:


> "However, the interpretation of what constitutes an offence is of course down to the Police and then ultimately the courts to determine. In our replies to you we have tried to indicate what we thought the intention was in introducing the legislation. In fact though we have no remit to say what effect the legislation, as drafted, actually has - or indeed whether or not an offence is actually committed under the different scenarios you have described. Our main function needs to be limited to pointing people to the relevant sections of the legislation. "
> 
> "To conclude we would suggest that the best advice to give your members is that if they are carrying goods on a vehicle that is over 3.5 tonnes it is very likely to need a goods vehicle test carried out annually at a VOSA test station once the vehicle is a year old. Beyond that if you need advice on the effect of carrying a small car or any other specific items we suggest that you seek independent legal advice. "


and, as UKmotorhomes.net concludes:
"Well, in our view the statements contained in that letter indicate a shift in the aplication of the term 'Living Van' to motorhomes. It now seems that it is up to the motorhome owner to declare to the Testing Station whether their vehicle is used to carry goods. If a declaration is made that goods are not carried, then the vehicle will be accepted as a motorhome and be subject to a Class IV test every year from 3 years old."

By contrast, you seem to be saying that MOT testers are professionals with Papal infallibility and the Wisdom of Solomon and that if the motorhomer doesn't like it, they can appeal so what's the problem?

Furthermore, I infer from the MOT ex-testers' advice that they do not regard it as an integral part of their job to establish whether or not they have a goods vehicle presented, if they are so readily defeated by a locked garage.

Dave


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## loddy (Feb 12, 2007)

](*,)


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Yup, that is indeed how we motorhomers feel on this matter, and look to the paid professionals to shed some clarity.

Dave


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## loddy (Feb 12, 2007)

I thought it was clear

you carry goods you need HGV test
you don't you need class 4 test

simple

Loddy


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## Codfinger (Jan 11, 2008)

*goods vehicle*

Is it? since when is a scooter goods and surf boards, push bikes etc not?????????? not really imho :roll: 
Chris


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## loddy (Feb 12, 2007)

IMHO they are goods, i.e. you don't need them to live in the van


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

DABurleigh said:


> if they are so readily defeated by a locked garage.
> 
> Dave


Hi Dave as I understand it, MOT testers are not allowed to remove any item to make inspection easier, I believe they can't even remove a ball hitch cover to inspect the ball.

So yes a locked garage would defeat them.

Olley


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## apxc15 (Dec 1, 2007)

Goods in transit

Goods that have departed from the dispatch, loading, or shipping point but have not yet arrived at the receipt, offloading, or delivery point. Also called in transit inventory or stock in transit.

I would have thought that this definition is clear in that goods are articles being transported for delivery.

So personal effects are not goods.

Pete 8)


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## loddy (Feb 12, 2007)

olley said:


> DABurleigh said:
> 
> 
> > if they are so readily defeated by a locked garage.
> ...


Quite correct

Loddy


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

So loddy, at your recent MOT tester refresher training, what did they say about establishing whether goods are being carried in order to test the vehicle in the correct class?

Going by your posts, a scooter in a garage of a vehicle over 3500kgs GVW means it is a heavy goods vehicle and should be tested appropriately.

Without a scooter it is not. But you cannot actually establish whether one is there if the garage is locked (a policy you advocate motorhomers to follow).

And if a scooter makes it a goods vehicle, presumably so does a push-bike. And if a push-bike, then so must a skateboard. And so on.

Where, in your professional training, is it clear on these matters? And if it is not, then it is presumably up to an MOT tester's judgement on the day in the absence of such definitive guidance. And so it is entirely subjective. And some will say it's a goods vehicle, and some will not, in any given scenario.

Or, more succinctly, they can be picky and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it but appeal.

"I dislike people who use words like PICKY when talking about MOT testers."
Sorry if you don't like me but QED.

Dave


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## marnaz (Jun 24, 2009)

Hi

I dont think anyone is 'having a go' at you firstly. What difines a ,professional' person ??? 

I used to take it as Doctors Solicitors ect. As a humble mechanic that inspected cars I like to think then at that time I was un biased, to try to generate work for the garage was never my concern as I was paid either way. I wouldn't consider my self a professional person, just a humble mechanic, and not a god with a pass certificate book. My only concern as im sure ide speak for Loddy here was to inspect the vehicle to ensure it complies with the guidlines issued. I know times have changed but are you asked to declair what you carry as a part of the MOT test these days?


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## marnaz (Jun 24, 2009)

Im Back Again....
Obviously things have changed over the years..... What happened to common sense, WHEN I was working as a tester, my job was to inspect the vehicle for compliance with the MOT regulations. If I could not complete a test because something was stopping me gaining access Ide if poss point this out to the owner if he was waiting, If not all points could be tested the is no alternative to abort the test. We would often take 3500kg & trucks to the ministry but never recall this debate topic a concern. to me a goods vehicle carries goods for a reward. We didn't have RV's then. but I might be wrong but a motor home to me would warrant the HGV test due to weight of the motorhome alone. personal goods (not being delivered) weather a skate board, scooter, or TV set should not come into this. However if things have changed ide love to understand the new regs.

Marnaz
PS maybe time to get the BBQ out and chill might appeal now...


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## loddy (Feb 12, 2007)

Guidelines for the professional tester are contained in the testers manual, classes of vehicles.

And yes a skateboard is not used for living in the van, and if the locker is locked and you can't see within you must judge it accordingly.

I'm off to Shepton bye bye
Loddy


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Can we please stop the griping about words/descriptions used and keep to the subject, which may or may not have serious implications for some of us.

In order to establish whether it is something that we have to worry about in the real world it would be useful to get feedback on the following:-

! Has anyone had the issue raised by any enforcement agency on the road?
2 Has anybody got any knowledge of any prosecutions and/or warnings/cautions for any alleged offence connected with these subjects?

3 What are the penalities for breaches of any otf these rules?

4 Are there any serving Police Traffic Officers and or VOSA Officers who have or would/would not take action in any of the suggested circumstances? (Sprokit has already made his contribution-Thanks)

On the point about removing/locking "goods" when attending an MoT station to obtain a Class IV, surely this does not avoid the requirement to produce the correct MoT, if required when stopped, for the vehicle as it is being operated.

Has anyone had any experience, when renewing a Tax Disc for a Revenue Weight of 3850kg, as stated on the V5, and presenting a Class IV MoT. At a Post Office it probably would not be picked up, but might be if it had to be sent to DVLA, Swansea for some reason.

Sorry to muddy the waters further!

So far no feedback on my request for experience of applying to manufacturers for a new VIN-any takers?

On a lighter note, maybe we should all keep a copy of this and all other related threads to present to enforcement personnel with the result that:-

1 They would be equally confused 

2 They would get bored and give up

3 Their shift would end before they finished reading it

4 They would not dare put it up to their legal department because it would bust their boss's budget


IS IT SUCH A " WEIGHTY" PROBLEM???????


Good Luck All


Geoff


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Can't help on any of that, but at least we have established clearly that:

If I present my 3500kg panel van to any professional, trained MOT tester in the UK he will test it under Class IV, unless I have left a skateboard in it, in which case, as my lockers are not lockable, every tester will test it under Class VII instead. Bet you didn't know testers inspected your van contents to check they are testing it appropriately.

And if you think we have now clarified with professionals the authorities' clear guidance on goods and goods vehicles, I suggest those of you over 3500kg who may carry such an item look up the law on speed limiters, because you will be breaking the law if you are carrying a skateboard, or any such innocuous item not used for living purposes, and don't have one.

There, progress at last.

Dave


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## Jean-Luc (Jul 21, 2005)

I have been researching the whole HGV/goods or burden/goods vehicle definitions as our equivalent of VOSA are in the course of implementing (long overdue) vehicle testing for 'motor caravans' and are currently applying the full HGV test manual and subjecting them to Tacho, plating, and other requirements as applied to commercially operated goods vehicles.

The following links to HM Revenue & Customs HMR&C and the following extract from Statutory Instrument 2002 No. 3113, The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
"goods vehicle" means a motor vehicle or trailer constructed or adapted for use for the carriage or haulage of goods or burden of any description"

The Official definitions of the various descriptions and wordings contained in the above documents would, when applied to MH's, indicate that a MH cannot classed as a goods vehicle, unless it is otherwise classed as a 'living van' see VOSA definition


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

DABurleigh said:


> Can't help on any of that, but at least we have established clearly that:
> 
> If I present my 3500kg panel van to any professional, trained MOT tester in the UK he will test it under Class IV, unless I have left a skateboard in it, in which case, as my lockers are not lockable, every tester will test it under Class VII instead. Bet you didn't know testers inspected your van contents to check they are testing it appropriately.
> 
> ...


We're all DOOMED, doomed I say!

Who started this nonsense about 'living vans' anyway?

Surely the purpose of the legislation is to protect the public from dangerous vehicles on our roads. to that end, a system of regulation has been implemented.

It seems clear to me that this legislation is targeted at those who use such a vehicle 'For the carriage of goods for hire or reward or in connection with a trade or business'.

So for example, traders going to motorhome shows and carrying stock for sale/display.

NOT for peeps going their HOLIDAYS.

Or have I got it totally cock-eyed and this legislation spells the demise of motorhome holidays?

BTW i had my 4000kg GVW motorhome tested at Kirkcaldy VOSA testing station, and the subject never arose. The younger tester said it was 'just a transit van with a caravan stuck on the back' Cheeky bugger.

David


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## Codfinger (Jan 11, 2008)

*goods vehicle*



loddy said:


> IMHO they are goods, i.e. you don't need them to live in the van


Ah but sporting goods ie surfboards pushbikes are allowed surely they are not essential for living :?:

Blimey think I should have kept my head burried in the sand seems I have caused a heated debate?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

I really commend MHFers read fully the link Jean-Luc marks as VOSA Definition. It is this one:
http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-mot.shtml
the principle reference I have already quoted and used in this thread.

However, as in my experience people STILL don't read embedded links, no matter how pertinent to the line of argument, here are some key abstracts.

VOSA say:
"A 'living van' is "a vehicle, whether mechanically propelled or not, which is used for living accommodation by one or more persons and which is also used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle". 'Living vans' are classed as goods vehicles ...."

In response to further questioning, VOSA referred the matter to DfT as the Government Department having responsibility for the legislation governing roadworthiness testing.

DfT said:
"I can confirm that all living vans are regarded as goods vehicles. This is because such vehicles are used primarily for living accommodation but are also able to carry goods which are not needed for the purpose of residence in the vehicle. Section 192 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 defines 'goods' as 'goods or burden of any description'. As such, 'goods' is not a term restricted solely to items carried for gain or reward. It is our view, therefore, that bikes or cars carried in a designated area on a vehicle should be regarded as goods and that vehicles which have the capacity to carry such items within them have to be regarded as living vans and not motor caravans."

"...many living vans are outside the scope of MOT testing as they exceed 3,500kgs in weight. These heavier living vans should be tested at a VOSA goods vehicle testing station under the Goods Vehicles (Plating and Testing) Regulations 1988. Such vehicles must be tested annually from the first year following registration."

"We take your point that a "living van" looks just like a motor caravan but the important difference is that it is used to carry goods and is therefore classified as a goods vehicle. The consequence is that if the living van is above 3500kg gross vehicle weight it falls under the goods vehicle plating & testing regime and will need to have an annual roadworthiness test, once the vehicle is a year old, carried out at a VOSA test site. "

"The view of my colleagues is that whether a motorhome has a locker of a particular size is not really relevant to this issue because all motorhomes have room that could be utilised to carry goods. The question is whether or not the vehicles are used for carrying goods rather than items that are needed for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle. It is up to the vehicle owner to declare whether the vehicle is used for carrying goods or not. VOSA would not be in a position to determine this at the time the vehicle is presented for test as they will not know the use to which the vehicle is being put. If the owner tells the test station that the vehicle is a motorhome and has it tested as such and then subsequently a Police check reveals that the vehicle is being used to carry goods then it would seem to us that an offence would have been committed. "

"To conclude we would suggest that the best advice to give your members is that if they are carrying goods on a vehicle that is over 3.5 tonnes it is very likely to need a goods vehicle test carried out annually at a VOSA test station once the vehicle is a year old. "

And if you want to link this stuff into the speed limiter implications, here is a head start as I did it 3 years ago:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-187161.html#187161

The law is crystal clear to me. If you have a motorhome over 3500kgs tested under Class IV MOT, and are subsequently stopped by the Police with a bike in a locker, if they want to they can charge you with so many offences you won't even be able to carry the paperwork. The fact that they haven't is either good news or bad news depending on your point of view, and is no different from the A-frame saga.

Basically we public are served poorly by virtue of bad laws and/or lack of enforcement by the Police/Courts.

Dave


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Hi DABs,

From Vosa magazine 'Matters of Testing' Issue 10 January 2001 
Quote 
'A typical living van is a converted coach or van with living accommodation, a workshop or space for carrying a stock car or motor-cross bike.'

That seems to suggest a 'target market' for the application of the relevant legislation!

I did read the link to the other forum information. 

I agree that this appears to be as confusing as the a-frame debate, but I have a suspicion that the problem is more one of individuals reading a piece of legislation and not fully understanding it in the context of all the relevant legislation relating to the subject. 

There seems to me to be a great deal of dubiety on lots of issues surrounding plating, testing, driving licences, tachographs, speed limiters, speed limits, etc, but the overwhelming principle must surely be 'what would be considered 'reasonable' in the context of the relevant legislation.

Clearly, someone going on holiday with their motorhome is not conducting a trade or business, carrying goods for profit, and so the legislation is not 'intended' to affect them. 

By continually raising issues with DfT, Vosa and DVLA, all we as motorhomers do is raise our heads above the parapet. As a cynic, I'd suggest that all that does is highlight further tax opportunities to the authorities.

David


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## marnaz (Jun 24, 2009)

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: 

Im thinking about buying a steam roller and a caravan
NOW what regs do i have to meet. Even tempted to be a new age travler just think no tax, no MOT No insurance....but at least i can sleep at night LOL

Or could I use a horse to move my RV?

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

marnaz said:


> :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
> 
> Im thinking about buying a steam roller and a caravan
> NOW what regs do i have to meet. Even tempted to be a new age travler just think no tax, no MOT No insurance....but at least i can sleep at night LOL
> ...


Join the showmans guild and get all sorts of exemptions!

David


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## marnaz (Jun 24, 2009)

b16duv said:


> Hi DABs,
> 
> From Vosa magazine 'Matters of Testing' Issue 10 January 2001
> Quote
> ...


I agree 100% with you just keep yopur head down and enjoy our hobby and LET sleeping dogs lie.
Were all most likely bringing up questions to end up making rods for your own back.

Pass the Burgers !!!!!
Marnaz


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## marnaz (Jun 24, 2009)

Yep would be the soliution shame about having to tow a set of dogems around.


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