# Vehicle Weights - What Do They Mean?



## 93149 (May 1, 2005)

Hi everyone. I'm new to this site and hope that I will gain useful information from it and maybe one day will be able to provide some aswell! 

I'm very confused about vehicle weights for all sorts of reasons:
Anyone who passed their driving test after 1st January 1997 is only permitted to drive a vehicle weighing up to 3.5tonnes on their standard licence. Okay, but how do I know what the vehicle weighs and does this mean before I put my belongings in it or afterwards? I've heard about unladen weights, gross vehicle weights, kerbside weights and axle weights, how do I know what they are and how do you calculate the figures and how do they relate to eachother?

Also if anyone could provide me with the relavant weights for a Hymer 694 (1990) on a Fiat base, plase could you let me know. I really need some help with this.

Thank you.


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

I assume you do not have the Fiat handbook which should tell you where abouts on the Fiat chassis you can find information about weights.
The licence to drive refers to gross weight and it is the all up weight which any vehicle must not exceed. This includes fuel loads, personel effects, all fittings, driver and passengers, everything infact. By law the gross weight must be shown on your vehicle somewhere, usually in the engine compartment or fixed to the side of a seat. Dunno where it is on a Fiat but there must be hundreds on this list who do and will no doubt tell you in later posts. You must also not exceed each individual axle weight so you need to load up with care. The best way to check these is to load up with all your goods and take it to your local weigh bridge. As you already have a vehicle these are the only weights you need concern yourself about. However, if you are buying make sure the dealer fully explains what is included in stated weights. 

peedee


----------



## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi hotspuds0,

according to the EU driving license regulations it is the _Maximum *Allowed* Gross Weight_ which determines the validity of driving licenses. This MaGW is plated somewhere on the vehicle (on my Fiat it is in the engine compartment right in the middle where the lock of the hatch is). You should also find it in the car papers.

So if you have a post-1997 standard driving license and a van with a _plated_ MaGW of above 3.5 tons, _you must not drive it!_ Even if the actual weight is below 3.5 tons.

And, of course, if you have a van plated for up to 3.5 tons MaGW, you may drive it, but not load to more than 3.5 tons gross weight. You also may not exceed each single axle load.

If you have a van which is rated above 3.5 tons, then it is in most cases possible to _downrate_ it, thus reducing the MaGW on the plate and on the papers to 3.5 tons. But that of course reduces the _payload_, the difference between MaGW and the unladen weight.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


----------



## Don_Madge (May 1, 2005)

Hotspuds wrote

"I'm very confused about vehicle weights for all sorts of reasons: 
Anyone who passed their driving test after 1st January 1997 is only permitted to drive a vehicle weighing up to 3.5tonnes on their standard licence. Okay, but how do I know what the vehicle weighs and does this mean before I put my belongings in it or afterwards? I've heard about unladen weights, gross vehicle weights, kerbside weights and axle weights, how do I know what they are and how do you calculate the figures and how do they relate to eachother?" 

Hi Hotspuds

Usually the vehicle plate on Fiat is situated under the bonnet, but Hymers often have them under or near the habitation door. 
This plate has all the info you need on weight.


From top to bottom 

Vehicle Identification Number (VIN)

3500KG Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)

5300 Maximum Train Weight (MTW) This is the MAM of the vehicle and Trailer combined when towing

1. 1750 kg Max permitted weight for front axle.

2. 1850 kg Max permitted weight on rear axle.

It is possible to be under the vehicle MAM but over on the axle weight. This often happens when a heavy load ie motorbike is carried on the back of a vehicle. 

I've done this off the top of my head so these figures are not correct as I haven't got the van handy but you can relate them to your van.

MMM did a very good article in the August edition I scan it and PM it to you.

Don


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

And of course we have the strange situation in the UK, that none of that at present is worth diddly !

What Gerhard says Applies to Europe and Some of its peoples (excluding the UK)

In the UK the weights dont mean diddly when refering to motorhomes and campervans.

There have been 2 High profile cases which "prove it" the one where the 102" wide motorhome was sold to a chap when 100" is UK MAX 

it appears that even in legal circles its recognised that the legal system turns a blind eye with regards to motorhomes.

Secondly a 40ft well over 7.5 tonnes monster was driven on the outside lane of a motorway by an ordinary driving licence holder, they had camera evidence Plod on the ground witneses and a signed "confession" from the driver.

At the third start of the trial at court the CPS dropped it thru "lack of evidence" strange as all the evidence is still available !!

In reality the UK law does not cover motorhomes and weights, I have discussed this with DVLA Construction and use dept, VOSA, Ministry of Transport and Dept of transport. 

The DVLA I have asked to provide me with the Law that covers their "opinion" that you need a special licence for each weight. after 2 months their legal dept came up with Diddly because there is no law that covers motorhomes, the only references to weight are with regard to GOOD's vehicles (in our context) and a mo0torhome is not a goods vehicle

we do not have to use a Tacho (goods vehicles over 7.5 Tonnes it is a legal requirement)

There is much more, but at the moment at least the law supports anyone with a licence driving ANY size (weight) of motorhome.

Will give some links later if you want.

George


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Thats why in a recent incident George, a motorhome owner, not obviusly overloaded, was pulled over, weighed and made to unload much of the contents before he was allowed to carry on with his journey! I know this gentleman is on the net so if you are out there speak up!

Sounds like your posting is good for a long discussion again.... all I am going to say is that in event of an accident with an overloaded vehicle let alone the wong licence group, I don't think you would be covered by your insurance. 

peedee


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Thats a completely different thing.

No vehicle should be driven over its rated weight.

We are discussing licences weights not axle loadings

George


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

well you were talking about widths so .......

Still wouldn't like to be first to test the law and an insurance company. Looking at the categories on the DVLA site they refer to "Larger vehicles"
over 3500 tons, no mention of the type?

peedee


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peedee

Do you think in the 30 odd years these big motorhomes have been coming over here there as not been a claim ? There have been plenty and none have failed because of size and licencing.

Yes the DVLA do refer to Larger vehicles now, however the law refers to LGV and HGV

Also note that the DVLA say this :


DVLA cannot give legal advice on how vehicles are classified for driving licence purposes. We can only give general guidance. The Vehicle Standards and Engineering Division, Great Minster House, 76 Marsham St, London, SW1P 4DR,(0207 944 2064), may be able to help classify a vehicle that falls under - Works Trucks, Agricultural Motor Vehicles, Industrial Tractors and Engineering Plant but only for the purposes of its Construction and Use.


This information is not intended to be a definitive statement of law.


I have rang Marsham and they agree with me on the construction and use and say that as far as they are concerned if its up to 16 tonnes on single axle or above that twin axle then it OK construction and use wise.

They also confirm that under construction and Use that a motorhome is NOT a GOODs vehicle and therefore not restricted by goods vehicle weights.

And the licencing law follows the descriptions in the Road Traffic Acts which describe weight limits for goods vehicles and NOT for motorhomes.

If you do not believe me ask DVLA to furnish you with a reference to the actual law on which they base their "opinion" after many weeks of being run around you will find as I did that there is no law to back their "claim"

Exactly the reason that the CPS had to give up trying to prosecute the only case they have ever tried to proceed with. All the evidence was there its just there was no law broken.

George


----------



## 92221 (May 1, 2005)

I can't wait until someone imports one of those 16 tonne gross weight rv's into the UK and see what our friends in blue get up to! Thats if you could get insurance for the thing.
I don't think the 'goods' tag will save you from special scrutiny. talked to an american rv dealer here and they were very gagey about whether one would be in law or outlaw.
In the last two American RV Magazine there is an article about a couples travels including the purchase of their Rv called 'Harvey'. This cahp contacted the DVLA and he was told to get an HGV licence and as he was towing a car he had to get a Class 1 articulated licence.


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Start towing and its (possibly) a different ball game there are the 12meter laws that appear to transcend groupings.

The courts already know that a lot of American motorhomes are outside the construction and use regs NOW there are many that are over the 100" width rule many that are overweight (ie over 7.5 tonnes) they cannot be done under present law for the weight, BUT they could for width as that is definately against the law.

The insurance companies are not stupid they cannot fail to have noticed the 2 very high profile cases and they have not chosen to avoid responsibility for claims.

RULE number 1

The DVLA do not know what they are talking about (or) should I say they do but they are lying or at least refusing to admit the truth.

Ask for a reference to the law that backs their "opinion" its easy the phone numbers on the website, ask for a reference to the road traffic act that supports their view.

BTW them 16 tonners are already here.

George


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

I would have thought the law which applies to a motorhome will be how it is described in the registration document. If I remember rightly mine at 3.8 tons is discribed a Private LGV, therefore goods law applies?????

peedee


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peedee

Then your vehicle as not been registered correctly, it should be Motor Caravan. If yours is a "professional" conversion they should have done it from new.

George


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

The taxation class is indeed shown as PLG (Private Light Goods). I wonder how many others on MHF are so registered ? I am quite happy with that and I will not go bleating to the DLVA about it as common sense tells me it is better to drive within the 'goods' law. No risk and better safe than sorry.

peedee


----------



## Don_Madge (May 1, 2005)

Pete,

When I sold my Laika (4200kgs) two years ago motorhomes over 3500 kgs were in the Taxation Class Private Heavy Goods (PHG)
Motorhomes up to and including 3500kgs were taxed as Private Light Goods (PLG).

Do you remember the thread on the List when a few motorhome owners found that their dealer had registered their van in the wrong class.

Of course it could have all changed since then?

Don


----------



## Jeffus (May 1, 2005)

Morning everyone,

I have just received my UK Registration Certificate for my van. In it under:-

4 Vehicle Details it states:-
A Registration Mark
B Date of Registration
[B.1] Date of first registration in the UK
D.1 Make . . . Fiat
D.2 Model/Type . . . Ducato 18 JTD MWB
D.3 Body type . . . Motor Caravan
[X] Taxation class . . . Private HGV
[Y] Revenue weight . . . 3850 KG Gross

Any comments? Jeffus. 8)


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Hi Don,
Yes now you mention it, I do remember the thread, a very confusing one it was too. I think they have changed because all registration documents are being changed to a new style. Sounds like Jeffus has the new version because my motorhome weight is not shown on mine. The body style is however shown as Motor Caravan. I have received a new style certificate for my car so I will have to compare.

peedee


----------



## Don_Madge (May 1, 2005)

Pete,

I've just got my new style reg document and the Timberland (3300kg MAM) is the taxation class, Light Goods Vehicle. Body type Panel Van?

Don


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peedee

Taxation Class as nothing at all to do with driver licencing classes.

Eupheus

Timberland have screwed up then, your motor caravan needs registering properly ASAP. There is a genuine excuse for your insurance not to pay out (they probably wouldnt use it but.....)

George


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Peedee
> 
> Taxation Class as nothing at all to do with driver licencing classes.
> 
> George


Try telling a Spanish policeman that George.

peedee


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peedee

Now you are just being fascetious. So according to you Spanish police are thick? And to follow your tax argument thru, then that means Jeffus needs an HGV licence then ?

Look at several other on weight and American motorhomes and its actually been stated in court by Judges that they turn a blind eye, this was "used" to turn down an appeal from a chap who had been sold an ilegal to use in this country) vehicle.

BTW its seems they are sneaking it all through bit by bit, Jeffus becomes Private HGV at just over 3.5 Tonnes? This now going to catch a few more drivers,This is down to the next bit of Eurotrash ie The Lower Tax Bracket LGV.


----------



## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

peedee said:


> Hi Don,
> Yes now you mention it, I do remember the thread, a very confusing one it was too. I think they have changed because all registration documents are being changed to a new style. Sounds like Jeffus has the new version because my motorhome weight is not shown on mine. The body style is however shown as Motor Caravan. I have received a new style certificate for my car so I will have to compare.
> 
> peedee


Our mh is just 2 years old (21/11/02) and is set out similar to the vehicle document Jeffus has described.

D1 PEUGEOT
.....BOXER 350 HDI MWB
.....MOTOR CARAVAN

Taxation Class PRIVATE/LIGHT GOODS (PLG)

Revenue Weight 3500 KG GROSS


----------



## Don_Madge (May 1, 2005)

Hi Gillian,

Thanks for that.

There is no revenue weight marked on my certificat.

I'm waiting to contact another Timberland owner because it looks like they Timberland might have fouled up on the body Type.

Don.


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Eupheous

There's no might about it, If its a motorcaravan it shoud be registered as such its an offence for it to be wrong.

George


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Peedee
> 
> Now you are just being fascetious. So according to you Spanish police are thick?


You can think what you like George. I for one think the Spanish police stand no nonsense and are efficient and thorough that is why I singled them out.

peedee


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peedee

You implied that because of the Taxation class the Spanish policeman would be dopey enough to assume a HGV licence would be needed. I credit it him with more sense.

Remember these silly LGV classification's are from europe. thats why we have the Pre and post 97 licence anomoly.

You cant have it both ways 

George


----------



## 88838 (May 9, 2005)

hey hotspuds0, if you are still with us welcome to the site, we are nothing if not voluble  but - are you any the wiser?? 

8)


----------



## 93795 (May 1, 2005)

This discussion is fascinating especially in the way that it has highlighted some of the anomalies in our rules and regs.
Out of curiosity I looked at my registration document which was first issued in 1993 it states :-
Fiat
Ducato 14 Dies Turbo
Motor Caravan
3100 kg gross
Heavy Oil
Private/Light Goods (PLG),
so I drive a 'Goods Vehicle' and presumably am subject to any applicable 'Goods Vehicles' laws??
:? :? Phil.


----------



## 88838 (May 9, 2005)

I think you will find that we are a sub-class, as motorcaravans, and as such can be subject to specific definitions - as in the speed limit debate.

8)


----------



## RobMD (May 9, 2005)

When I had my new Reg. Document, the Revenue Weight was wrong so I sent it back for an updated one - The Moral is, check every detail carefully inc. Serial Numbers!!


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

The onus is clearly on the owner to make sure the V5C is correct. My old style V5 does not show the weight which I think is an error and as a result they have put my vehicle in the wrong class. New style certificates are issued shortly after you tax the vehicle so I am due mine anyday now and I will sort it out then.

peedee


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Twooks

On speed we are in a strange position

below 3 tonnes normal car speeds

Over three tonnes, but less than 12 metres its 60 60 70 for Single, Dual and Motorway

Over 12 Metres 50 60 60

If you look at the chart here you can see that we have been seperated from Goods Vehicles. Chart here >>> http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/v3/roadsafe/speed/

We have been put there due to construction and use definition, the construction and use definition allows up to 16 tonnes on single axle and makes a Motor Caravan definately NOT a goods vehicle.

Full timer's beware under construction and use some of you may be driving "living vans" which would put you in a real Goods Vehicle Category, in which case the 3.5 tonnes 7.5 Tonnes and HGV licence law does apply, but thats the least of you worries then, heres a few other problems you would have

1. Tachograph
2. Lower Speeds
3. Higher costs for everything, Road Tax, Insurance, ferries, tolls Tax, in some countries abroad you would have to buy local road tax too.
4. far greater restrictions on road usage no 3rd lane over here and restrictive rules abroad.
5. regular "MOT's" is it every 3 months?

Peedee

They are trying to quietly take your rights away, the original was right as no revenue weights apply to a Motor caravan, its the sneaky new taxation system filtering accross from Europe. But heh you seem to agree with them anyway. Personally if I am being shafted I dont pass them the vasaline.

All, have a look the only dept that actually classifies motor caravans is construction and use and they classify them as I have said no restriction by weight and NOT a goods vehicle.

DVLA do in a leaflet but thats an opinion and as it says not the Law, they cannot quote the law they say they are basing it on.

Ministry of Transport Test it as if it were a car.

Road tax is for certain weights Private HGV but this is a revenue weight only and nothing to do with Licencing.

VOSA and all the other agencies agree that a motor caravan is not an HGV

Crown prosecution service dropped the only case due to lack of evidence when not one piece of evidence missing, the real reason was lack of law to support their case.

George


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

George, this is the first I've heard of "living vans" - can you expand on this, please? For instance, what constitutes a "living van" as opposed to a "motor caravan"?

Thanks.

Barry


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi

"motor caravan" means a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users"

Thats the Construction and use definition of a Motor Caravan, where it gets "grey" is if a garage is provided, this can be construed as a provision to transport Goods and Burden and it cites a "catch all" when used in relation to a business, there's a specific provision for Showmen exempting them from having operators licences etc, but for the rest of us it becomes a nightmare.

Basically a Living Van is a motorcaravan associated with a business, the only exemptions seem to be for showmen

Ben & Lizzie and Nuke Admin who run businesses from their motor caravans (Living Vans), hopefully they will be able to let us know how they got over the hurdle of Full timing/business insurance and foriegn travel Insurance. 

My Brother in law runs one (he lives in a house, but does work from a living Van) but he could only get full on business insurance.

George


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Thanks for that, George - I'd never even heard of such an animal as a 'living van'. So full-timers need not worry, just those engaged in running a business. Whew!

Barry


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Or those with a garage

But I think that would be a real Jobsworth copper

George


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

George,

I am finding it extremely difficult to follow your arguments with the all the red herrings thrown in and, with the drift away from the original question, a clear response to what is an improtant question for many of us is very unclear.

The original question by 'hotspuds' was :



> I'm very confused about vehicle weights for all sorts of reasons:
> Anyone who passed their driving test after 1st January 1997 is only permitted to drive a vehicle weighing up to 3.5tonnes on their standard licence. Okay, but how do I know what the vehicle weighs and does this mean before I put my belongings in it or afterwards?


I thought both myself and others before your response below answered this but your response was



> And of course we have the strange situation in the UK, that none of that at present is worth diddly !
> 
> What Gerhard says Applies to Europe and Some of its peoples (excluding the UK)
> 
> In the UK the weights dont mean diddly when refering to motorhomes and campervans.


And you conclude your response with these words



> There is much more, but at the moment at least the law supports anyone with a licence driving ANY size (weight) of motorhome.


In the last quote above I assume at the very least by licence you mean a licence to drive a car? You are therefore saying that anyone with such a licence can drive any weight of motor caravan/motorhome. In my eyes this is contrary to the law. Can you say where the Statutory Instrument 1996 No. 2824 The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1996 stands in this because the back of my driving licence is stamped quite clearly with my entitlement to drive from Schedule 2 of this regulation which clearly identifies weight limitations within the various categories of motor vehicle. My vehicle is also by law stamped with its weights to enable correlation and the new registration document will also quite clearly show this and help me travel freely within the EEC without hindrence.

You identify in your message of today that



> "motor caravan" means a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users"


Surely what you are saying cannot therefore be correct. A motor caravan is a motor vehicle and is therefore covered by Statutory Instrument 1996 No. 2824. and you cannot just willy nilly drive what you feel like.

peedee

_________________
Age does not determine who is right only who is left.


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peedee

In the simplist form its this.

Ring DVLA ask then to let you know what Legislation restricts a motor caravan to a weighy limit.

At first they will send you a copy of leaflet Inf 52 this is a leaflet that is their opinion of the law at thebottom it quite clearly states

"HOW ARE VEHICLES CLASSIFIED?

DVLA cannot give legal advice on how vehicles are classified for driving licence purposes. We can only give general guidance. The Vehicle Standards and Engineering Division, Great Minster House, 76 Marsham St, London, SW1P 4DR,(0207 944 2064), may be able to help classify a vehicle that falls under - Works Trucks, Agricultural Motor Vehicles, Industrial Tractors and Engineering Plant but only for the purposes of its Construction and Use.
This information is not intended to be a definitive statement of law."

So then the natural question "can you please let me know the law that backs the opinion stated in the INF52 Leaflet"

They will then send you a photocopy from a manual which references the Statutory instrument that you flourished above.

However if you read it carefully you will not find a motorhome and the LAW used in reference and conjundtion with it states again "goods vehicles"

So then I right and ask how does a motorhome end up classified as a goods vehicle.

They then reply that according to section 3 of the road vehicle (construction and Use) regulations that a motorhome is a motorvehicle constructed or adapted for use for the Carriage of goods or burden of any description. When I stopped laughing, I rang Marsham re the contruction and use, when the chap there managed to stop laughing he said "there is no way that a motorhome can be twisted to fit the description of a GOODS vehicle"

Every Goverment dept that deals with transport agrees with me that DVLA's interpretation of the law is incorrect.

A Judge in dismissing an apeal stated that large motorhomes are part of a policy of "turning a blind eye"

The only Case the CPS have ever attempted to proscecute, they dropped after the Third adjournment citing lack of evidence, even though all the evidence is still on file ie 

1.the Video evidence
2. The police on the ground witnesses (Traffic cops)
3. the fact that the driver admitted Driving a 40 foot over 7.5 Tonne motorhome 
4. driving in the 3rd lane of a motorway
5. whilst he only as a standard car licence.


If you do not believe me ring and follow it all through, but at all times keep the fact that according to construction and use It cannot be forced to fit a Goods vehicle description.

VOSA And the ministry say that if it was a goods vehicle then as it is not an exempted goods vehicle it needs 

1. Tachograph
2. operators Licence
3. etc etc I cant be bothered to list them all again.

There you go Peedee start Phoning if there is a law surely the legal Dept of DVLA will tell you where to find it.

George


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

After previously reading a discussion along similar lines, I came to the conclusion that what George is saying is:
1) A motorcaravan is in a special category all of its' own - Schedule 2, of the Motor Vehicles (Approval) Regs, 2000, and is commonly known as a "Schedule 2 Vehicle". ( http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/downloadable/dft_roads_506814.pdf )
2) Therefore, if a motorcaravan carries a specific description (as in this Schedule), then it cannot be a goods vehicle (ie for the carriage of goods), because a 'goods vehicle' also has its' own unique description, and the two descriptions are very, very different.

It therefore follows that driving licence descriptions of weight limits, etc., that restrict drivers who wish to drive 'goods vehicles', do not apply to motorcaravans, simply because they are not, in law, 'goods vehicles'.

I emphasise that this is only my interpretation of what George postulates - but from the (admittedly little) evidence I've seen so far, it's a pretty convincing argument. The court case George talks of, I'd like to know a bit more about. It would be good to hear the defendent's story.

Motorcaravans are often based on a chassis intended to eventually become a goods vehicle, but that doesn't make it a 'goods vehicle' in law, does it? Go back to what 'Schedule 2' says. It does seem as if the DVLA have missed the point of the separate legislation for goods vehicles and motorcaravans.

However, I really wouldn't like to be the subject of a 'test case'!

Barry


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

I've discovered a legislative piece that could affect how owners of large (over 3500kg) motorcaravans are classified. It seems that they should be classified as 'PLG' - the same as the rest of us, and NOT as 'HGV'. The legislation says, in my interpretation, that any privately-owned motorcaravan, irrespective of weight, is a 'PLG'. Also please note that 'PLG' as a taxation class means 'Private and Light Goods'. As motorcaravanners, we ignore the 'Light Goods' part of the category - we're 'Private', full stop.

Anyway, have a look for yourselves - http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_transstats/documents/page/dft_transstats_023375.pdf Page 2.

The relevant part states: "Private and Light Goods: Includes all vehicles used privately." It goes on to include "private heavy goods vehicles". Motorcaravans do not seem to be specifically mentioned, but are clearly "all vehicles used privately".

Velly inta-lesting!

Barry


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

BarryandSue said:


> However, I really wouldn't like to be the subject of a 'test case'!
> 
> Barry


Neither would I and as I am insufficiently knowlegable about the complex matters involved, I live by what I do know and believe to be right. I also cannot add anything further to this discussion but it will be interesting to see the final outcome if any.

peedee


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Yes, peedee, the only way that we'll ever reach a definitive answer is when a Court makes a judgement. But to get to that point, some poor blighter has got to fight the case.

"I'm not a number - I'm a free man"

"I'm not a HGV - I'm a MOTORCARAVAN!"

Barry


----------



## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

So where do we fit in...? Machzone Silvermint weighs over 4T, taxation class Private HGV (same price as a PLG tax disc) MOT has to be caried out at a Class 7 station, although Class 4 mot regs apply?? :? :?


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Well, it seems to me that you should be classed in the new PLG class.

The document clearly says (and I quote) "The group also contains a number of important minority groups including...private heavy goods vehicles..." But my point is that you should never have been classified as a 'Private HGV' - your m/h is in a different classification altogether; it's Private, and it's a Motorcaravan.

As I say, have a look yourself:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_transstats/documents/page/dft_transstats_023375.pdf

My heads spinning - I'm off to bed! Good luck!!!

Barry


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Thanks Barry, most useful. I feel a letter coming on to a club. Its about time they explained/kept members up to date with legislation and debates affecting our hobby instead of blowing their own trumpets all the time. Need I say which one but please start a new thread!

peedee


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

I agree, peedee. Legal advice of this nature is more than any one of us could afford to buy, and is where a club comes in. Maybe advice from their legal dept. should be forthcoming?

My understanding of what a 'Private HGV' should constitute, is where someone has, say, restored a 1953 Scammell (just for example), and drives it round Shows, and suchlike. It's clearly a HGV, but it's not being used as a HGV - it's privately owned, as opposed to being commercially owned. That's my view (and what do I know?!!!) of what's a 'Private HGV'. A motorcaravan is therefore NOT a 'Private HGV'. 

Just because a motorcaravan is heavy, like MandyandDave's 4 ton MachZone, and is made on a chassis designed to form the basis of a HGV, does NOT make it a HGV. 

What's the old definition of a 'heavy motor car'? We have more in common with a 'heavy motor car' than we ever do with a 'heavy goods vehicle', and all the tacho-business, permitted driving hours, speeds, etc., that goes with them (designed, incidentally, to protect driver employees from dangerous exploitation).

I'm all HGV'd-out... Someone else's view please!

Barry


----------



## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

Just thought I'd put my few pennies worth in :lol: 


As far as pre 1997 licences are concerned you can fight amongst yourselves.

I sat my car test in 1997, I drove a SWB transit as my private car on my B licence then sat the PCV test gaining an automatic bus licence.

I did alot of training to reach the standard required to drive a bus, I really don't think car licence holders should be allowed to drive these larger vehicles without further training.

I then sat the HGV 2 test after yet more training, you would imagine holding a bus licence I would be able to pass the HGV test with no further training? 

I am currently a trainee driving instructor for cars, the people I am teaching are being taught to drive a car. They will sit a test in a car meeting the test vehicle requirements of the DSA.

The DSA will issue a certificate which will then be sent to the DVLA who will in turn issue a Licence to drive a vehicle upto 3.5t

There is no way that any of my students should be permitted to drive anything larger than a basic transit without further training. 

I own a converted bus which has an unladen weight of almost 9t and a MAM of 12t

Yes it is a bus, and YES it does have a MAM. Even as a motorhome it has a MAM.

There is no way I would let a car driver near my bus without further training. 

I have had the training and passed the tests, I know what I am talking about. I also teach car drivers and know what knowledge and training they need to pass the car test. 

As far as the law is concerned, even if there is no legislation relating directly to motorhomes, if it weighs 12t you cannot drive it on a 3.5t licence, so the dVLA are being sensible and relating it to the driving of large vehicles. 

I drive my motorhome to the same standards as I would drive a bus or HGV, I adhere to road signs, speed limits and drivers hours.

If you think there is a loop hole in the law and you want to use it, go ahead. But if you kill someone in the process due to lack of knowledge and experience of driving large and heavy vehicles that is your problem.


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Red Dragon

Quote

"I did alot of training to reach the standard required to drive a bus, I really don't think car licence holders should be allowed to drive these larger vehicles without further training."

I tend to agree that unless you really are a good driver and confident with this size of vehicle further training would be good, but thats not really what this topic was about.

Follow the law through and it doesnt matter whethor you have a pre or post 97 licence according to the law as written you can drive a Motorhome of any weight. They are quietly trying to align us with the european version ie all vehicles classified by weight and not vague definitions of class and type, in euro land you need the licence to match the weight.

George


----------



## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

No a 1997 licence states a vehicle upto 3.5t therefor you cannot drive anything larger than 3.5t or a vehicle with more than 8 seats with a category B licence.

I am confident I can fly a helicopter, I have 11 hours in a Robinson R22 beta, but I do not hold a pilots licence. Do you think I should pop over to the airport?



> I tend to agree that unless you really are a good driver and confident with this size of vehicle further training would be good


A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. I was a really good driver before I passed my bus and truck tests, but to be honest I knew nothing about driving large vehicles. I can safely say that, now that I do know about driving large vehicles.

There is a good reason why you have to sit these tests otherwise everyone would be able to drive an artic or a bus on their car licence. It makes no difference if the vehicle is full of "goods", passengers or "your house", it is completely different to a car and requires specialist skills and knowledge.


----------



## 88941 (May 10, 2005)

http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/vehicle_cat_desc.htm#Cars

the info is there..

Keith


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Red dragon

Yep thats what your licence says, but the law that backs it up contradicts what the DVLA have put on your licence, the relevant legislation says refers back to the previous legislation which then covers goods vehicles, follow the previous links and posts and you will see according to Construction and use Dept a motorhome is NOT a good vehicle and therefore not subject to goods vehicle weight restrictions

Also consider post 97 licences cover you for minibuses, minibuses can weigh up to 16 tonnes on single axle. If the weight part of your licence kicked in you would not be able to drive it? yet even DVLA say you can.

The Big part of this is the Goods Vehicle references, the DVLA avoid saying goods vehicle ow, but the legislation still says it and its the written law that counts not DVLA'a Misinterpretation.

George


----------



## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

> Also consider post 97 licences cover you for minibuses, minibuses can weigh up to 16 tonnes on single axle. If the weight part of your licence kicked in you would not be able to drive it? yet even DVLA say you can.


Post 1997 licences DO NOT allow you to drive minibuses, they cover category B only, D1 is no longer issued.



> http://www.freelawyer.co.uk/vlawyer/actfile.asp?subject1=4&subject2=5&seq=2&actid=62
> 
> Introduction
> 
> ...


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

BTW I am not saying it is right or sensible for people to drive these larger vehicles. What I am saying is that the law as it stands says you can.

Also if you read the licence link above you can see a direct contradiction of the 3.5 Tonne max, look at the Minibus section Up to 12 tonnes on a licence that in another section says 3.5 tonne max ! (but like I say read the legislation and its goods vehicles over 3.5 tonnes, previously 7.5 tonnes)

George


----------



## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

I appreciate what you are saying, but the DLVA issue the driving licence and state what they are permitting you to drive. The DSA carry out assesment of drivers and advise the DVLA which licence to issue.

The police and courts accept the "licence" as the record held with the DLVA, therefor if the DVLA state you can drive a vehicle upto 3.5t then that is what your licence covers.

The Minibus section on the DVLA website states that a minibus can only be 4.25t if driven on a B licence.



> Holders of a full category B (car) driving licence may drive any of the vehicles listed below :
> 
> a passenger-carrying vehicle manufactured more than 30 years before the date when it is driven
> and not used for hire or reward or for the carriage of more than 8 passengers;
> ...


As far as the constuction and use department are concerned they are only interested in the maximum dimensions and weight of the vehicle, not the drivers entitlement to drive the vehicle.

I accept that there is a loop hole in the precise wording of the legislation, mainly due to the interpretation of the phrase "goods vehicle".

My final statement on the subject is this.

If you hold a car licence and want to drive a larger vehicle, get a LGV licence. That way you are "qualified" and covered should the loop hole be plugged with the replacement of the phrase "goods vehicle" with "vehicle over 3.5t"


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi RedDragon

I have discussed this with the local traffic division, They only prosecute according to our they see the law, The Crown Prosecution service only prosecute according to our they see the law and the courts will only prosecute according to letter of law, not the DVLA's or police's or the CPS version or opinion.

The Goods vehicle is clearly defined and as DVLA say Decided this is decided By construction and use, C&U agree with me on this, a motorhome is not a goods vehicle and is not bound by goods vehicle weights.


----------



## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992864.htm#3


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi 

Thats the one and it refers back to the previous legislation and does not remove Goods vehicles from the equation.

George


----------



## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

What is the legal definition of a motor car with regards to MAM?

Which clarifies the definition of the category B licence [post 1997]


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Red

A motorcaravan is not a Car heavy or otherwise, its a lot more complex than you first imagine or DVLA would have you believe.

Minibuses are not restricted by weight, yet the same licence that says 7.5 Tonne max can drive a minibus of any weight.

There as been only one attempt to prosecute this weight limit with regards to motorhomes.

The vehicle was a 40' american way over the weight limits (if GV limits apply which they dont) 

it went to court three times and was Adjourned the CPS abandoned at third ATTEMPT they Cited lack of evidence, BUT they had

1. Camera evidence which they still have
2. Plod on ground Statements which they still have
3. Drivers Statement Admitting he was Driving it on normal car licence. which they still have.
4 He was driving in 3rd lane of motorway too!

The law you refer too was in place at time, problem is it refers back to previous legislation and Goods Vehicles.

George


----------



## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

Yes, but what is the legal definition of a motor car?

Another subject all together...

What is the maximum weight any rigid vehicle can be with only two axles?

18 Ton, above that it must have a third axle

What is the largest vehicle that can be driven on a category C licence?

The holder can drive any rigid vehicle with no restriction on weight (provided it is not carrying passengers under PCV regs)

What is the largest vehicle that can be driven on a category D licence?

The holder can drive any rigid vehicle with no restriction on weight (provided it is designed to carry passengers under PCV regs) The holder may also drive a purpose built bendi-bus articulated vehicle as it is considered to be one unit.

The maximum design weight of a bus must be stated on the vehicle; The ULW must be written on the side of the vehicle on the near side in front of the back wheel arch. The carrying capacity must be stated on the vehicle, to include the seating capacity and standing capacity. On double decker vehicles the seating capacity is stated as upper and lower. Standing is not permitted in the upper deck as this would affect the stability of the vehicle. The seating capacity of a bus is governed by weight and not volume, 15 people equals 1 ton. The luggage space is calculated and factored in with the seating capacity, added to the ULW to determine the MAM. Category D licence holders are permitted to drive any size of bus which is approved by the UK government for use on our roads.

If a PCV driver is caught with too many people on their vehicle they will be prosecuted in the same way as a HGV driver would be prosecuted for overloading their vehicle, or a car driver would be prosecuted for over loading their car.

A category D1 licence allows the holder to drive a vehicle with upto 16 passengers. As stated before any rigid vehicle can be upto 18 ton on 2 axles, if it is over 18 ton it must have 3 axles.

A category C1 licence allows the holder to drive a vehicle not designed to carry passengers under PCV regs upto 7.5 ton

As stated category D vehicles are not restricted by MAM, however 

They are restricted by seating capacity; thus a vehicle with seating for 16 passengers allows a payload of just over 1 ton [15 people = 1 ton], if you add luggage you might get away with a payload of 2 tons.

Now considering the fact that pre 1997 licences permitted drivers to drive;

A car upto 3.5 ton

A vehicle [goods vehicle] upto 7.5 ton

A bus upto 16 seats [which actually equates to about 7 ton]

It would take a very broad interpretation of the legislation to say that a bus which is designed to carry people rather than "goods" should need to weigh more than 7 ton, the company I drive for has a 17 seater transit which has a MAM of 6.9 ton.

If a minibus was 18 ton it would have to be filled with 11 tons of something other than people. And I would argue that the extra weight would have to be cargo of some description which would make it a "goods vehicle".

If you have a vehicle with 7 tons of people and 11 tons of cargo, I would say that was a dual purpose vehicle under the road traffic act, rather than a bus?


----------



## 88883 (May 10, 2005)

Hi Geaorge and all

An interesting forum  

I want to query your comments regarding garages.

I certainly do not speak for Ben and Lizzie, but having met them and having had the 'grand tour' of their very nice Euramobil; I can assure you, they do not 'run a business' from their garage. They carry no 'goods' whatsoever. Absolutely everything on board is for private use and certainly not for sale.

My question is, why do you think differently ?

Chris


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Chrisandee

Re Garages and running businesses (of any kind) from a vehicle

Commercial Vehicle, running a business from a vehicle could be construed, ie the office is in the vehicle, it matters not that there is no stock on board. In that case a Garage area would not be needed by a pedant. 

Insurance wise it needs Business insurance.
MOT ? hmmm would need a call, does it become a living Van? 
Back then to question of Tachographs.

I think its worth anyone doing or considering, to look into very carefully.

Hi Red Dragon

a very interesting post but.........

It does not change the basic premise or the law re motorhomes, please feel free to ring Marsham yourself and check it out BTW on the notes I have from Marsham (Construction and use) they said 16 Tonnes single axle.


Any vehicle must have weights for safe operation, even a motorhome, but the weights on motorhomes do not affect driver licencing according to the law.

George


----------



## 88883 (May 10, 2005)

Hi George

When people use their homes to work from; provided they have no customers visiting the premises and have no goods at the premises, they do not require business insurance, they are covered under normal domestic household insurance.

(In fact there is an argument to support the fact that home workers should pay less insurance as they are at home a lot more than a commuter, therefore the home is 'more protected' by having it occupied. - but that's another forum :lol: )

If the above, legally applies to Homes why not Motor Homes ?

Chris


----------



## 88741 (May 9, 2005)

Good point Chris :wink:


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Chris

I think this is running a bit Off Topic now but here goes,

I agree there on the House insurance, I run a business from Home, Rates are normal, The house insurance have accessed that there is no Increased risk from a paper based business and that computing and other related equipment is no greater risk than normal. Likewise Business rates do not apply.

However because I am self employed My car as to have business cover even though I do not carry stock etc, basically it transports me same as anyone else (well the employed can drive to and from work with no extra cost) as a self employed person my car insurance is dearer.

Because I work from home its the devils own Job getting my motorhome covered without business cover too ! Its the little line that says you must not use a leisure vehicle (motorhome and campervan) to and from any place of work. 

It may be worth those that use their vehicle as day to day transport checking their policy, even after mine was discussed at length with broker the policy still came out with that line under use restrictions.

VOSA 0870 6060440

Vehicle used for business becomes commercial and hence and HGV which requires Plating (MOT for commercial vehicle) Tachograph and Driver hours etc.

If you want a definative answer fax the following number with description of your vehicle (make Model size etc) and a description of the business activities conducted from the vehicle. The operator I spoke to said that even running your office in the vehicle made it a commercial vehicle !

I described running an internet business with no stock ever coming near the vehicle, a purely IT consultancy business running and making webpages etc and for my own benefit an accountancy business. As far as he couild see all would make it a commercial vehicle under the legislation any business activity at all counts.

FAX 01792 454313

Describe Vehicle and business they guarantee to get back in touch in 3 working days.

Insurance, all the vehicles actually require business insurance, which on all the companies I have Just called will not cover you at all. 

Comfort
Adrain Flux
Coop
Shield
Couple of others I just rang all said not to Covering A motorhome with any kind of business conmnection.

Perhaps The webmaster here or Ben and Lizzie could lets us know who insures them?

BTW I do disagree with the HGV bit, Construction and Use agree with me re no weight limit as a motorhome, but they dont decide the commercial bit thats down to vosa. so for Purely personal use weight not an issue (C&U DEPT) Business is another matter entirely.

George

If you dont like worms, leave tins without labels well alone.


----------



## 88741 (May 9, 2005)

Correct me if I am wrong .....and I am sure you will :wink: but surely the reason your chosen transport has business cover is the same for everyone who travels to their normal place of business, wether they be self employed or employed, and has nothing to do with if you carry any stock etc in it. 
That being the case then if you live in your transport which just happens to be your place of business, then you can't be travelling to it, because you are already there. Can you ? So by logical extension to that argument if you carry on a business which is based from your vehicle and you do not use it to collect stock for instance, but purely as a base then you are not using it in the context of business travel insurance.
Oh and yes my insurance for the van does cover me for journeys to and from my regular place of business, but is not covered for other business use, as well as social, pleasure and domestic use.
But there again I am probably wrong :wink:


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Helen, all

I have now had calls back from all the brokers I asked to get me a quote and they all say its not possible.

ie they say they cannot find a UK insurer who will cover :

a Motorhome

For full time living and use for business, Business use includes even as your office or PC based internet selling.

They can get full time cover or business cover, but not both.

I like your reasoning re living or traveling, but it dont work.

The only way it seems is to neglect to mention business, which could prove very dodgy and costly if they dont pay out on any claim.

They can get full time living if you are employed and use the motorhome to travel to a single place of work, ie if you worked in an office you can get cover, if the office is the vehicle your stuffed mate (Insurance brokers technical term) I thought this would work for say anyone who worked for a ltd company (ie set up a limited company which you own, but legaly you are employed by the company, but regardless of Co registered office your still working in and from the vehicle)

Unless anyone here can put me on to an insurance broker/company who do ?


George


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi all

Just looked out a FAX from my Archive for another thread, to me it throws doubt on what VOSA said earlier today.

"motor caravan" means a motor vehicle (not being a living van) which is constructed or adapted to carry passengers and their effecta and which contains as permenantly installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accomodation for its users; motor caravans are not classed as goods vehicles for MOT test purposes and therefore in Class IV or V depending on their seating capacity, but regardless of their size and weight.

"living van" means a vehicle, whethor mechanically propelled or not, which is used as a livinjg accomodation by one or more persons, and which is also used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle; Living vans are classed as goods vehicles and depending on their weight are either class IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or are subject to HGV Plating and testing.

Now let us examine an hypothetical internet business, seems to me to fit the first one ie motor caravan, what do you think?

Note especially regardless of size and weight, VOSA and the Vehicle inspectorate both agree motorhomes are not defined by weight. The relevant legislation refers to goods vehicles, hmmm do you see a picture forming? even taxation wise under the new legislation it should be taxed PLG not as the DVLA claim Private HGV, but the DVLA do not back anything they say with legislation, over a four month period they could never quote which law backed them up, it went through their legal dept and they were stumped.

George

PS the insurance issue still bugs me hopefully someone will be along soon and say who they use.


----------



## teensvan (May 9, 2005)

*Vehicle Weights*

Hi everyone.

Just received my V5C for my Burstner 748-2, purchesed last month, and also reading comments about weights. My V5C reads,

Body type Motor Caravan.

Taxation class Private HGV.

Revenue weight 5000KG.

*Wheelplan* 2-Axle-Rigid Body.

When I look at the 748-2 I count 1 Front axle and 2 Rear axles.

Can somebody explain why I count 3 axles and DVLA count 2 axles, any replies welcome.

Steve.


----------



## 89429 (May 23, 2005)

Steve 
Somebody stole their abacus!


----------



## 89146 (May 15, 2005)

Just read this thread, have had some experience in some of these issues.
1. Business rates for working from home - technically business rates ARE payable but because it would need to be assessed on the proportion of the house involved, councils turn a blind eye - call it "de minimus" in other words, too insignificant to worry about - it would cost them more to do the assessment than they would collect. So strictly speaking it is not exempt and you need to notify your council for clearance, especially if you are thinking about selling the house in the future.
2. Business insurance for motorhomes. Business cover is at a number of levels; at the basic level, if you use your car for your employers business (even to use it to go on a business trip) you must have cover for this. With most car policies that are fully comp, it is free or very little extra. You also need it if you use your car for car boot sales if you sell goods. Now for my dog business, I used my motorhome to take dogs to shows. Since the costs were going through the books (as a show is "advertising" or marketing your stock so you sell puppies more easily). Knowing the tendency for insurers to back out of payouts on the flimsiest of small print, I wanted to ensure that I was fully covered - and had made full disclosures - since £35k of motorhome is a big risk if not covered. This cover was established as being the basic level of business use and I secured it via Boncaster (the C&CC scheme) with Equity Red Star.
Now I have wound up the business and moved to Ireland I am back to leisure insurance (and a big saving lol)
I did not enquire about the other levels of business cover, which are (a) carrying stock (b) operating from the vehicle (c) selling direct from the vehicle but most risks can be covered, its just a question of finding the right source.

Gill
Ex-Risk Management Consultant


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Gill

Getting some business cover on a motorhome is possible, but a bit of a pain. Where the brokers said the problem was, is that getting permenant live aboard and business insurance on a motorhome was not possible.

From what I was told no-one will touch it.

George


----------



## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Hi all
I have a question????? Hotspuds, after 2+ months and five pages (quite an epic) did you get an answer to your original question? My head is spinning with the magnitude and variety of responses and now I am frightened to my Hymer in case I get arrested......
Hopefully someone will be kind enough to answer the original question and put us all out of our misery. Please........
Kind regards
Keith


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Kands

The original Question as been answered, its a few side issues that are contentious.

George


----------

