# "A" Frame eye bolt cracked



## 97425 (Jan 25, 2006)

Hi,

Has anyone ever had an "A" frame eye bolt crack on the threaded bolt portion that is fastened to the car chassis?

Fotunately I was not moving at the time - but the ring of the eye bolt has separated from the threaded bolt and has prompted me to find out if it was a one-off or if others have had the same problem.

I am Concerned - would be an understatement.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

This is obviously not the Car A Tow set-up, but another similar design using eyes instead of a bar and pins. I think this post should be made sticky along with manufacturers name once it has been obtained, before it disappears from view.
I don’t know who’s make of A frame this is, but the manufacturers should be informed ASP so they can take appropriate action, hopefully a recall.


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## 97993 (Mar 5, 2006)

Eye bolts of this nature are normally stress tested in a straight line pull, any stress at an angle away from straight will cause failuer , a typical example is the screw in recovery eyes supplied in the boot of many vehicles, and are scrwed into the front chassis when you break down these are* strictly *for *straight line tow rope *pulling, and if used to pull vehicle up a recovery vehicle, make sure you are not standing in the fireing line, many many have failed in this way half way up the ramps
I would suggest that when used on an A frame you are forced to get incorrect stresses when cornering
But Hey what do I know


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

So Geo, you recon that all A frames using eyes will have the same design fault then! May be we won’t have to wait long for the A frame legality thing to be tested in the courts, I just hope it doesn’t involve a fatality.


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## 98383 (Mar 28, 2006)

Hi I was considering buying a AA TYPE A frame. Is this due to inferior product being used here or are all A frames not up to the job ?

Regards

Jenks


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## 97993 (Mar 5, 2006)

I can only comment on the towing eyebolts supplied by vehicle manufacturers, and that generaly they are used for lifting or pulling in line with the threaded bolt section I use an AA type A frame and there is not an eye bolt in sight, it stands to reason in my opinion that the weakest point is the threaded area just below the eye and any sideways pull/push here is asking for trouble I am not familiar with any profesional A frame that uses eyes, I have though seen many horrible so called A frames for sale on E-Bay
Geo

[/quote]


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## 97425 (Jan 25, 2006)

*"A" Frame up-date*

Thanks for the replies so far, but has anyone actually had one fail?

The design and sale of this particular "A" frame has been around for some years and is used by many.

It does have a straight bar that connects across the car via the eye bolts and the "A" frame is held in place by the bar.

The company has sent replacement eye bolts today.

Any further info welcomed


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

"The company has sent replacement eye bolts today". 


So who's the maker ?


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## 97425 (Jan 25, 2006)

The maker is Towtal


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## richardjames (Feb 1, 2006)

*Cracked eye*

Hi BIg-G
When did you have this conversion done to your car? I have one done in the last twelve months by the same firm but I cannot see any welding by the eye but behind the eye there is a large nut ( apart from me that is)! !  I am just as concerned as you are!   
Richard


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## 97993 (Mar 5, 2006)

Now we have the name I have had a look at thier A frame set up, I cant get a good look at the mounting system but from what i can make out they dont appear to be using eye bolts,
Have the ones you are refering to got a stee l& nylon ball bearing type centre that swivels, with a hole in the centre for the rod if so, you have whats called a Rose joint and these are made for just that purpose and are often used by me in Raceing suspension set ups and are normally very very reliable, if its one of these you have cracked I would suggest it was a rogue production cock up
Geo
Hope that puts your mind at rest


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Geo said:


> Now we have the name I have had a look at thier A frame set up, I can't get a good look at the mounting system but from what i can make out they dont appear to be using eye bolts,
> Geo
> Hope that puts your mind at rest


What do you mean " I can't get a good look at the mounting system but from what i can make out they don't appear to be using eye bolts"
If you go to the link below you will see them sticking out like organ stops!!

http://www.towtal.co.uk/aframe.asp

There's a nice long thread that won't take kindly to any sideways thrust.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

BIg_G said:


> Has anyone ever had an "A" frame eye bolt crack on the threaded bolt portion that is fastened to the car chassis?
> 
> ]




Big G, where about has the crack in the thread appeared, behind the eye or just in front of the locking nut ?


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## 97993 (Mar 5, 2006)

Of coarse I can see the "Organ Stops" its what is in the eye section I cant see, What have you, x ray eyes or psycic powers? so what are they? eye bolts or Rose joints, tell me do!


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Geo, it was you that said you couldn’t see the eye bolts, if you look at the left-hand picture, the one with car attached you will see a connecting bar/rod partly obscuring the number plate. I assume this rod passes through the two eyes and also the holes on the ends of A frame arms.


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## 97425 (Jan 25, 2006)

guzzijim said:


> Geo, it was you that said you couldn't see the eye bolts, if you look at the left-hand picture, the one with car attached you will see a connecting bar/rod partly obscuring the number plate. I assume this rod passes through the two eyes and also the holes on the ends of A frame arms.


Correct the rod passes through the eye bolts and the swivel joints are on the "legs" of the towing frame and these attach to the long bar that goes from one side to the other.

The "parting of the ways" happened directly behind the eye or ring and before the securing nut.


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## 97993 (Mar 5, 2006)

Guzzijim 
Sorry for going on ,but it is you that is not seeing, my question /statment is 
I can not tell from the pics wether they are eye bolts or rose joints , do you know the difference can you see what they are 
if so please let me know it makes a huge differance 

Big G you have the items , are they just plain steel rings (eye bolts) do they have a shoulder? or is there an insert inside the eye section that will move /tilt,(rose joint)

Inform us and we can make the correct asumptions and point you to the correct answer to your question,


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

BIG G for what its worth, my opinion is that it is more lightly a manufacturing fault. My reasoning is, if it was sideways stress the crack would have appeared at the point of greatest leverage, ie. nearest the locking nut. It is strange that only one has been affected, which again leads me to along the manufacturing fault path.
If you want to feel really reasured, why not have them crack tested?


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## frenchfancy (May 21, 2005)

I have an A frame from Towtal, have checked it and seems to be alright, what explanation if any did they give, and was there any charge? i am off to France for 3 months next week towing my punto, don't want to encounter any probs.


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## chellaman (May 18, 2005)

I have scrutinised the pictures on the Towtal website and the design looks very weak and dodgey to me!!! When turning, there are going to be quite high sideways forces on these long bolts with a great risk of metal fatigue. Personally, I wouldn't touch the design with a barge pole!
I have the Car-a-Tow on my Smart, and this is a very good strong set-up.
A failure in an A-frame on the move would be disastrous AT LEAST!


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

chellaman said:


> I I have the Car-a-Tow on my Smart, and this is a very good strong set-up.
> A failure in an A-frame on the move would be disastrous AT LEAST!


Don't be to complacent! I thought my Car a Tow was bullet proof, when changing the air con. condenser we found the out of sight metal work was being ripped out of the body work. The six securing bolts were being pulled through the metal work, if the fitters had bothered to put some L shaped reinforcement brackets on to the chassis rails there would not have been any problems, anyhow £50 cash in the welders pocket and all is ok now.
There must be a moral here! like check the anchoring points on your a frame and always use the break-away wire/cable.


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## 97993 (Mar 5, 2006)

This was the point I was working upto, but as no one is coming back with the answer to my question ie are they eye bolts or a form of rose joint I can only suggest you type in eye bolt into google and you will find pictures of the correct use of eyebolt and it appears this is not one of them, if on the otherhand rose joint have been used these may well be special manufacture for just this perpose
Clear as mud now!!!! 
Geo


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## 97425 (Jan 25, 2006)

Geo said:


> This was the point I was working upto, but as no one is coming back with the answer to my question ie are they eye bolts or a form of rose joint I can only suggest you type in eye bolt into google and you will find pictures of the correct use of eyebolt and it appears this is not one of them, if on the otherhand rose joint have been used these may well be special manufacture for just this perpose
> Clear as mud now!!!!
> Geo


Geo,

Sorry about the delay but I am not able to log-in as often as I would like at the moment

The rose joint that you refer to is on the end of the "A" frame legs - the eye bolt, a ring at the end of a long bolt is attached to the chassis of the car and protrudes through the bodywork.

A long bar with a fixed end is then fed through one rose joint, through one eye bolt across the front of the car, through the second eye bolt and then through the second rose joint and finally held in place by means of an end consisting of a washer and a padlock.

The eye bolt at the starting end - in my case the nearside - is the one that has cracked off between the eye and the large securing nut.

G


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

*A frames*

My A frame fitted by Towtal does NOT have rose joints. None of th Towtal A frames use rose joints. They are standard threaded eye bolts apprx 5/8 diameter screwed/bolted thru body into a reinforced brace bar joined to the chassis.
The actual A frame has 2 swivel joints fixed into the swinging arms making the movement in the A frame NOT on the towed vehicle eye bolts.
Hope this answers the questions.
I tow a Smart using the Towtal fitted A frame.
Am I concerned? Yes, as much as I am concerned about any mechaninical failure on any vehicle I am in. OK, the A frames in use today don't have to conform to any safety tests as far as I know, but if you compare the 2 eyebolts to the 2 bolts used to fix a towball to a car, they are of similar size and they are used to tow in some cases a couple of tons. I am towing 720kg. Side stresses will come into the equation somewhere, but I am not a qualified stress engineer to make an educated diagnosis into the POSSIBLE problems that May or MAY NOT appear.
I guess 1000's of A frames have been fitted worldwide and there may be other cases. Without a thorough examination the the broken part by an expert we cannot judge as to wether the breakage was due to a design fault or manufacturing fault.
Why do caravans have a breakaway cable which should NOT be attached around the towball?
I have personal experience of a towbar coming unwelded and the bar holding the ball and electrics on falling off the car with the caravan attached to it. 
With that thought, not everything is 100% perfect 100% of the time. 
BTW the towbar was less than 6 months old at the time.


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## 97993 (Mar 5, 2006)

Thank you for the information ,it is a lot clearer now,
My only area of concern is that when an eyebolt is going to be subjected to *any* side stresses the eyebolt *should/must *have a large shoulder in direct contact with a flat mounting surface, shoulder eyebolts are made for just that purpose, I can only assume the manufacturer has done his homework and used suitable equipment, to me an outsider looking in, it appears as you say straight ones have been used without shoulders and appear to have very long threaded areas with no support(required to reach front of vehicle i assume) the words in bold come from eye bolt manufacturers information sheets.I also agree that where it has cracked is not were I would have expected it ,so quite possibly a rouge eye
Having only used the proffesional recovery types (and they have their faults too)i can see the attraction of the ones deigned for the M/H, they are more user friendly
Happy Motoring and safe towing
Geo


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## chellaman (May 18, 2005)

It seems that the main point about the Towtal A-frame is that the connection to the chassis is through two eye-bolts which appear, from the photographs, to be a few inches long.
The ability of the towcar to turn its wheels and follow the motorhome, depends solely on side forces exerted on the towcar by the A-frame.
This is how castors work!
These side forces are via a few inches of comparatively slim bolts, which are bound to bend repeatedly due to the leverage, which is one of the requirements for metal fatigue!!! Shoulders on the bolts would have little, if any, effect. Maybe shorten the bendable length a little.
This is not for me!
The comparison with towballs is incorrect since, in their case, there is no side force on the bolts themselves. They merely clamp two surfaces together! 
The Car-a-Tow system, although not perfect, is far better because it relies on this clamping effect, with no side forces on the bolts. Unless they are loose, of course!!!
I have now done 9,000 miles with my Car-a-Tow/Smart combination, have just done another check, and there are no signs of any problem.

A-frame discussion is never going to go away, is it?


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## 97993 (Mar 5, 2006)

> Shoulders on the bolts would have little, if any, effect. Maybe shorten the bendable length a little.


 if i may question this comment, the eye bolt specifications state for eye bolts with shoulders up to 45 degrees side pull is aceptable shoulderless eyebolt straight pull /lift only ,so there is a conciderable difference!
Lets do away with the A frame part of this, and concentrate on arguing about Eye bolts ,Hows that :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 
I feel as if im turning into a certain gentleman who shall remain nameless 8O


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi just add my thoughts, a shouldered eye bolt wouldn't make any difference if it was fitted as the existings ones are. Shouldered eye bolts are fitted tight down to the shoulder which is next to the head. Maybe this where the confusion lies.

Olley

Edited
just found this site which shows the difference clearly.
http://www.worksafesask.ca/files/ont_mol/eye_bolts.htm


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## 97993 (Mar 5, 2006)

In the words of the world renowned Perry Mason (Iron Sides)
I rest my case :lol: 
Spot on site thanks for that Olley


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## 97425 (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: A frames*



DJP said:


> My A frame fitted by Towtal does NOT have rose joints. None of th Towtal A frames use rose joints. They are standard threaded eye bolts apprx 5/8 diameter screwed/bolted thru body into a reinforced brace bar joined to the chassis.
> The actual A frame has 2 swivel joints fixed into the swinging arms making the movement in the A frame NOT on the towed vehicle eye bolts.
> Hope this answers the questions.


*It is an "A" frame supplied and fitted by Towtal*
If you look back at my postings you will see that I did originally refer to them as swivel joints but was persuaded that they are called rose joints.

The point is whatever the right terms are one of my eye bolts has cracked completely across and has parted company between the ring and the threaded part just behind the large securing nut.

The original intention was to identify if anyone has had the same problem. It took me quite some time to make up my mind between "A" frame and trailer and hoped that I had made the right choice. - please don't start a new argument over the rights and wrongs of particular systems.

G


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Quote "parted company between the ring and the threaded part just behind the large securing nut." 

Do you mean in front or behind the large securing nut?

If as you say "behind the large securing nut" then I don't think it's side forces/thrust, unless the nut was not done up!

As for over-tightening and cracking threaded part, I think you would need a lot of over tightening. 

As for the old A frame rant, it looks as if the main opposition is otherwise engaged.


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## 97993 (Mar 5, 2006)

Sorry if you have missinterpreted my use of the word argument, prehaps disscusion would have been a better choice, it was an attempt at a humourus reply to chellamans comment about A frames not going away this forum is full of people with opinions and I happen to be one of them ,its what makes the world go around, if we were all the same we would all have A frames or trailers and M/Hof the same make, then what would we talk about. 
It would appear that your problem is not wide spread, but was worthy of the question. at least we all now know about eyebolts and rose joints 
above all keep smiling :lol: 
Geo


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## Steptoe (Nov 8, 2005)

Geo, I enjoy your style of writing, as I do that of a garage proprietor on another forum I frequent, out of curiousity do you post anywhere else?


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## 97993 (Mar 5, 2006)

Hi Steptoe, well thank you, the style of writing is set by nuke he set the font for the forum not me :lol: 
By style do you mean my quirky sense of humour, I say quirky as it appears to go over the majority of peoples heads , if your getting it you should see my phsyciatrist too 
No I don't publish anywhere else, this forum is my only form of communication with the outside world,
I actually admired Mr Telfords style bless him and the maestro Pusser of coarse, but my spell checker thinks he's a poser
let me have the link and name of this imposter I will have a go sorry take a look at him
Geo


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## Steptoe (Nov 8, 2005)

Hi Geo,

Your alter ego posts as 'oldman' in the Back Room on the Honest John website ( please don't read anything into this, the age profile on that board is a little different to ours :wink: )

For car related info it is an excellent site for us non-professional amateurs

http://htdig.honestjohn.co.uk/home/index.htm


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## chellaman (May 18, 2005)

If we are still on A-frames and eye-bolts and things related, I have found something very relevant and, to me, very comical!

This discussion all started with a safety issue regarding Towtal A-frames.
On the Towtal website, they invite you to download, in various European languages, their notes to give stopper-coppers explaining that when we are motoring in other EC countries we can go under UK regulations. I don't wish to argue this point as I would use it myself!
However, I have just downloaded these pages, and done a quick check on the two languages I know best, Spanish and French.
The standard of the translations is so bad, with incorrect words and meanings, that they are comical and unusable. They could only have been done using an Internet translation website without being checked.
For example, where they wish to say "may I" (i.e. can I), the translation gives the word for the month of May (he! he! he!).
I have binned them and would advise others to do the same. And get your own translations done by a human. I can imagine that, if you showed one to a Continental copper, he will fine you anyway!!! Probably a bigger one for insulting his language.
The main point is, if this company is daft enough to publish this rubbish, what else are they daft enough to do!!! 

P.S. I have nothing personal against individuals in Towtal!


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## 97425 (Jan 25, 2006)

guzzijim said:


> Quote "parted company between the ring and the threaded part just behind the large securing nut."
> 
> Do you mean in front or behind the large securing nut?


As I have already said
*The point is whatever the right terms are one of my eye bolts has cracked completely across and has parted company between the ring and the threaded part just behind the large securing nut. *

The nut was still on securing what was left of the bolt as it protruded from the car bodywork.


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## 99164 (May 11, 2006)

The eyebolts that are shown on the web site should not be used in this situation. They are not lifting eyebolts but agricultural eyebolts from farm gates and these are the eyes which allow the gates to be adjusted on the pins. I am a blacksmith and use these all the time......


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

*eye bolts*

I have an A frame fitted by TowTal and have done about 5000 miles towing a Sciecento with no problems. I am now concerned about the eyebolts mine appear to have a large nut behind the eye or is this the should to counter act side force?


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi zappy21, this site clearly shows the difference between the two types
>>>click<<<

Olley


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

Thanks Olley, I have seen that and I guess mine resemble the shouldered type. I have emailed towtal for confirmation and will let you know the outcome.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi zappy61 simply putting a nut on a straight eyebolt doesn't turn it in to a shouldered one.

With the shouldered type of eyebolt, the shoulder is an integral part of the eyebolt they are cast in one piece.

If you have a straight eyebolt with a nut that can be adjusted, then you do not have a shouldered eyebolt.

If this is the case then its a poor design, but that doesn't Necessarily make it unsafe.

Olley


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

Thanks Olley, but I don't know if the hexagonal 'nut' is part of he eye bolt or free to move unless I unscrew it. So I have emailed towtal from their website but as yet no reply. I will give it a day or two and then ring them if no reply.


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

*eye bolts*

I have had a reply from Towtal and they confirm that the eye bolts are of the shouldered type. They say they are aware of one bolt failing in 9 years and 1500 A frames, the bolts have been replaced and they have asked for the failed bolt to be returned to them so they can determine the cause of failure. Unfortunately they are still awaiting the the failed bolt. *So come on Big G get the bolt back to them so that we can all benefit from the cause of failure!*
I have replied with the link to this forum for information.


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## 97993 (Mar 5, 2006)

Just ordered two eye bolts from towtall for a second towed vehicle and they are in fact gate eyes as used on farm gates and the shoulder nut is free to move ,on all the installations i have seen they are however placed right up to the eye, They were however concerned as to why i wanted two replacements , but they failed to offer me any improved version or alternatives,perhaps if they did it may be construed as an addmittion of an exsisting fault, if indeed there is a fault having fully inspected the set up it seems more than adequate for its purpose, perhaps miss use,(too sharp cornering has caused this problem, or incorrect castor-camber on the towed vehicle)
Interesting one this !!
Geo


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

*eye bolts*

It really makes little difference where the bolts originate only they are suitable for the job in hand. I am more interested in the cause of the failed bolt and unless it is examined and tested we will not know.

Big G says he wasn't travelling at the time then can he explain what the circumstances was at the time of failure please?

I am reasonably happy with my setup and Towtals reassurance but like everyone else it would be nice to have a technical explanation for the failure.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi zappy61, the most usual reason is metal fatigue, this is caused by the bolt being constantly stressed from side to side, a fracture develops in the root of the thread and spreads across the bolt.

Even used in gates they are subject to these stresses when the gate is opened and closed, but as its a non-critical application its not so important.

I would think that trying to reverse would put much greater stresses on them, and could be one reason for failure.

If a non shouldered eye bolt is used on an A frame to anchor the ends, it is in my opinion bad engineering, even if failure is rare.

Olley


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

*eye bolts*

Thanks Olley,

Yes I know about metal fatigue (Neville Shute and wings etc.) however I can't see how any side movement occurs since the A frame is triangulated and any sideways force on one bolt is countered by the force on the other.

So how did the bolt part company?

A photograph would be nice.


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## 97425 (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: eye bolts*



zappy61 said:


> I have had a reply from Towtal and they confirm that the eye bolts are of the shouldered type. They say they are aware of one bolt failing in 9 years and 1500 A frames, the bolts have been replaced and they have asked for the failed bolt to be returned to them so they can determine the cause of failure. Unfortunately they are still awaiting the the failed bolt. *So come on Big G get the bolt back to them so that we can all benefit from the cause of failure!*
> I have replied with the link to this forum for information.


The offending bolts were returned the day after I received the new ones and I asked for an explanation as to the reason for failure.

Still waiting


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

*eye bolts*

Thanks Big G,

How did the failure happen? You say you weren't travelling what exactly was the circumstances when the the bolt snapped? were you reversing or making a tight turn etc.?

It is very concerning unless it was just a one off manufacturers fault. Are the new bolts complete with the hexagonal nuts? Are they loose or fixed? If they are loose I wonder if a bead of weld around the nut would be an extra safeguard although looking at mine they seem quite sturdy.

Keep chasing Towtal for a reply,

regards,


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