# Ban hunting with dogs in NI



## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

I didn't even know we still hunted with dogs in NI but my SIL sent this today.

"We have a friend who works in animal welfare who does some unbelievable work in saving animals. She has recently been involved in drawing up a petition to stop fox hunting that is hopefully being tabled at Stormont if it gets enough support. To support the petition she is trying to get as many people as possible to complete a short survey. She has already got 10 thousand signatures but needs more as there is only a week left of the consultation.

Link to questionnaire:

https://takeaction.league.org.uk/page/73888/subscribe/1?locale=en-GB

For me, the bottom button link produced a totally unresponsive survey but the top button was fine.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Done Jean.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I tried and had to give up.

Ray.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Done.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Done Jean

Sandra


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

raynipper said:


> I tried and had to give up.
> 
> Ray.


Did you use the top button on the page Ray? Or maybe it's something to do with being furrin?!


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

If passed what happens if a hunt from across the border passes into NI in pursuit do we have an international incident to be affective it needs to include the whole of Ireland


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Good question - at least none of the animals needs a special form to cross the border!


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

jiwawa said:


> Good question - at least none of the animals needs a special form to cross the border!


They would if they were accompanied by a person I think Jean?


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

erneboy said:


> They would if they were accompanied by a person I think Jean?


I thought that only applied at the NI/GB sea border?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Dunno.Probly.


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

Maybe you could paint a large union flag on all NI foxes so the dogs from across the border would not attack them


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

bilbaoman said:


> Maybe you could paint a large union flag on all NI foxes so the dogs from across the border would not attack them


That might actually be called incitement!


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Can I ask what method of control, for foxes, is planned to replace the hunting?


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

patp said:


> Can I ask what method of control, for foxes, is planned to replace the hunting?


I would suggest the farmers normal response is quite adequate, usually a 12 bore, I have several farming relations here in NI who don't think we have a particular Fox issue that needs help from those that enjoy what imho is a barbaric 'sport'.
Indeed mange is responsible for killing many foxes early in their life. Traffic deals with many of those that have moved into our towns, many are males that are driven out of family breeding territory. Reintroduction of eagles in Ireland now provides a natural wildlife predator, something missing since wolves disappeared. They do have a natural high mortality rate but giving birth to up to five Cubs a year keeps them circulating.

Please excuse my sudden burst of knowledge but helping with my grandson's recent school project gave me my new found knowledge.

You're never too old to learn 😄

Terry


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## bilbaoman (Jun 17, 2016)

They are going to retrain them and sell them as pets to the rich English


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

bilbaoman said:


> They are going to retrain them and sell them as pets to the rich English


Nah the Scots have that market sewn up with their wild Haggis.

Terry


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Well, if I were a fox. I think I would prefer to be dispatched by a pack of hounds than take the risk of the twelve bore taking my leg off and leaving me to die a long lingering death deep in some ditch somewhere.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I doubt the fox would ever get the choice Pat. And being torn limb from limb by a pack of baying hounds while still alive hardly sounds better.

Ray.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Any death is horrible, Ray, but a long lingering one, in agony, of gangrene would not be my choice


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I imagine that farmers who deal all their lives with the welfare of animals would be a practised shot and ensure their quarry was killed not maimed

It would only be a fox causing problems on their land

Fox hunting is barbaric, hunting foxes across the land regardless if they are causing a problem to livestock or not

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I wouldn't rely on that. Many farmers are casually cruel to animals. I've seen it often enough. To farmers like that many animals are just a crop.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

And many are terrible shots too. They just blast away in the dark hoping to hit something! There must be another way. I hate to think of an animal maimed and unable to feed itself or its young. The young slowly starve to death and the adult gets to choose between gangrene and starvation for its exit from the world.

I know hunting is a terrible thing to contemplate but we all watch other animals predate upon vermin. How many of us enjoy a David Attenbourough documentary with lions hunting down deer calves? Domestic cats hunt mice and rats, birds of prey hunt rabbits but we cannot bear the thought of foxes being hunted by dogs. Would we mind so much if people on horseback were not involved? If a couple of poodles got loose and chased a fox down would we get as upset as we do over hunting?


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Well I imagine dead or maimed the young would starve to death 

Hunting, running an exhausted fox to ground ,digging it out, throwing it to a pack of hounds, that are most certainly are not a couple of poodles 

Not the same as natural predation in my book

I doubt cats identify their prey as vermin

I hate to see any animal hunted as prey but I know each have to live, as humans we no longer hunt to live but for sport 

Unnecessary cruelty in my book

I can accept humane culling but I find hunting little different from trophy hunting 

Sandra


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

What we have to remember is that the land owner wants the foxes culled. It is they that allow hunting over their land on the understanding that a certain number of foxes are killed as a result of a hunt. If the fox is not dug out then the land owner will not be happy.

Then we have the reason that they are culled. The poor chickens. If only they would just take one or two, to feed themselves and their young, but no they have to go on a completely pointless killing spree of all the poor chickens in a coop


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I’m not convinced Pat

But then as you know I kill no wild life

Even rats

The circle of life is safe in my garden

The frogs eat the slugs and snails, we provide the wild life pond, use no pesticides beyond soap and water to spray roses occasionally for greenfly

We grow fruit and veg limited by space in a middle of town garden 

Protect our colony of sparrows and blackbirds who nest every year

Clip a house covered in Ivy’s which is hard work but feeds and protects the birds

A tiny but important echo system slap bang in the middle of a town

If every one who doesn’t have the benefit of country living did the same it would benefit our wildlife

We don’t have lots of different birds, robins, occasional blue tits, collared doves, but we are happy with what we have got

Ensure they are fed throughout the year

And in doing so feed the odd rat or so

Sandra


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## Webby1 (Mar 11, 2012)

I can accept that foxes may need to be culled.............maybe.

But the point at issue here for me is that there are people who love to hunt foxes (and rabbits)..................for fun. 

There you go Sandra........where shall we set up the barricades ?>:wink2:


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Let’s not forget the badgers that have dogs sent down their sets either.

How folk get enjoyment out of it all perplexes me.

Terry


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Ah, so now we get to the real crux of the matter. It is the people joining in on the hunt that we all object to. It is a pet theme of mine and I have had many a discussion with people who hate hunting. If I gently probe away then it will come out eventually.
I have to say I have never been hunting and never intend to go but someone once said to me "so what is the alternative?" and it stopped me in my tracks and made me think. The livestock owner wants the foxes gone. The hunts are prepared to oblige but only if they are allowed to do it their way. So we have a stale mate. All academic in England of course because it is banned. So the farmers shoot and maim foxes and that makes me upset. 

What about birth control for foxes? It is a serious question. No one will investigate it because it is considered acceptable for men with guns to roam the countryside shooting wildlife. Just as long as they are not mounted on a horse.


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## Webby1 (Mar 11, 2012)

No great revelation Pat. For me It is absolutely the crux of the matter. It doesn't need to be teased out.

The arguments of the hunting brigade are distracting and diluting. It would be better to tease out from them that it's because they enjoy it
And if is not acceptable for anyone to roam the countryside shooting wildlife either (for fun) 

If it has to be done then so be it......
Although it has to be done I would be equally wary of anyone who actually enjoyed working in an abbatoir. 

Since it has been banned in England .......have there been any real downsides. Alternatives can always be found...


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

That's the trouble though. What are the alternatives? To me shooting is just not acceptable because unlike, say, an abattoir the death may not be instantaneous. I would support gassing if it could be proved that there was no distress caused. That would mean a pleasant smelling gas that just sent them to sleep never to wake again. Birth control needs to be explored more. On that theme - foxes to me are very cat like, they kill for fun and are quite happy to live independent lives. With feral cats they trap, neuter, mark and release. Much better than shooting them which is, incidentally, exactly what a local farmer does when his feral cat population gets out of hand


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## Webby1 (Mar 11, 2012)

It's not for me to suggest alternatives...what do I know. 

We ensure that the people who supposedly need it doing are forced to find alternatives.
I am pretty sure money changes hands for the landowner to claim a massive fox problem and no alternatives to hunting.

Alternatives may cause some distress to the animal but never as much as hunting.......efficient gassing, capture and neuter,birth control in some meat.Also I am pretty sure if I kept livestock they would be safe from foxes.

IF that is what I actually wanted to do, as opposed to going out shooting with my mates on Sunday morning or taking a back hander from the local hunt.

Is there really such a big unsolveable problem. 

My reference to abbatoirs was to distinguish between what "needs" to be done(some would argue that point) and actually enjoying and seeking out the opportunity to kill.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Webby1 said:


> ... I am pretty sure if I kept livestock they would be safe from foxes.


How do you keep lambs in the field safe from foxes?


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## Webby1 (Mar 11, 2012)

Sorry sorry I was thinking about chickens..................but you are so right about lambs.

So let's forget my comments and just wind back to finding alternatives to controlling foxes.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

jiwawa said:


> How do you keep lambs in the field safe from foxes?


Dogs, dogs are used world wide to patrol and protect flocks of goats and sheep from worse predators than foxes

Many dogs were breed to do precisely that in mountainous areas

Sandra


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Yes, the Estrela Mountain Dog is one of them. Can you imagine the outcry though if our farmers left a dog out in all weathers to guard the sheep?


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## Webby1 (Mar 11, 2012)

Just done a bit of research as to how big is the problem of foxes..............of course it depends who you ask.

But there was a recent article in Farmers weekly

about a farmer had shot dead 10 foxes who had killed many of his lambs. Terrible all round

But read behind this headline.........firstly it seemed to be relatively easy to shoot 10 foxes and then ask how many hunts it would take to kill

these same 10 foxes


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

The dumping of urban foxes is another issue entirely. If we are talking about welfare issues in the culling then we should talk about the welfare of dumping these semi tame animals into an alien environment. A friend told us of a day he was out pigeon shooting. As he stood, camouflaged, in a copse he heard a rustle and a fox ran past, followed by another and another. They were close enough to shoot accurately and so he did so. But they kept coming. His gun was almost too hot to handle by the time he had finished shooting them all. He then remembered hearing a van drive off before the foxes all appeared. He did them all a favour because they would have had no idea how to survive in a rural environment.

Surely, though, that is not what this discussion is about? It should be about humane methods that do not cause a long and lingering death. Farmers, unlike the shooter in the article, will almost always only have a shotgun licence and they are notoriously inaccurate. Designed to shoot pheasant and other game birds at relatively close range they would not be the weapon of choice for dispatching a mammal quickly and humanely. Horses are shot as a humane method of choice and a captive bolt is used for that purpose. It is pressed close up to the skull to ensure there is no mistake. Use one of those on a fox and I would be with you. A shotgun? Sorry no.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes. Comparing hunting and shooting is like comparing apples with bricks. The comparison is not valid.

For instance here; https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/feb/20/hunting.immigrationpolicy

270 hunts resulted in 91 foxes killed. The hunt is a day out and the kill a bonus for the hunters.

If a farmer goes after foxes with a gun his intention is solely to kill foxes. If he shoots at one with the intention of hitting it he may have say a 50% chance of doing so. He can go out every day at the appropriate time to try to control the foxes if he thinks that is merited.

Hunts, to my knowledge, are infrequent social events which are regularly held on the same date starting at the same place. I am not aware of their being called to deal with a fox problem and I'm not aware that any of the roughly one third that do manage a kill ever kill more than one fox. Hunts can be very damaging and disruptive to the land they cross. They aren't very fussy as to where they will go if they think the hounds have a scent, nor in reality do they really have all that much control.

I was never interested in it, but one of my managers was a great enthusiast and kept hounds. He talked hunting all the time. Though we were very good friends we didn't see eye to eye on hunting. He always told me that was because I refused to come with him.


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## Webby1 (Mar 11, 2012)

Surely, though, that is not what this discussion is about? It should be about humane methods that do not cause a long and lingering death. Farmers, unlike the shooter in the article, will almost always only have a shotgun licence and they are notoriously inaccurate. Designed to shoot pheasant and other game birds at relatively close range they would not be the weapon of choice for dispatching a mammal quickly and humanely. Horses are shot as a humane method of choice and a captive bolt is used for that purpose. It is pressed close up to the skull to ensure there is no mistake. Use one of those on a fox and I would be with you. A shotgun? Sorry no.

I don't think anyone is defending dumping urban foxes and surely we are all thinking about humane ways of controlling foxes (so far) 
So there is absolutely nothing for us to argue or disagree about(so far)

Also as far as I can see nobody is promoting shotguns or farmers for that matter..............the point was that 10 foxes can be professionally killed if necessary and much more humanely than however many hunts so perhaps that is a way forward.

Surely we are just looking at alternatives to hunting. 

Another article I read, praised foxes for keeping the rabbit population down, which are apparently much more of a problem for arable farmers.

Spooky would be turning in his grave


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

There is another side to the local hunt that not many people will be aware of. Where there is a deer population there are often accidents that involve them. When an accident gets reported it is often the local hunt that will turn out at all times of the day or night to "deal" with the injured animal. This may involve a length search in poor conditions through dense undergrowth. Of course the fact that a tasty bit of venison might be involved has nothing to do with it I am sure


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Webby1 said:


> Sorry sorry I was thinking about chickens..................but you are so right about lambs.
> 
> So let's forget my comments and just wind back to finding alternatives to controlling foxes.


I've seen a UK farming program featuring a guard Llama grazing with sheep etc it is an effective deterrent, they'll happily chase off Mr Fox.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guard_llama

Terry


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Dears are culled humanely

Foxes could also be killed humanely 

If shooting of wildlife was only permitted by professional hunters

We are only a step away from badger baiting, cock fighting, dog fighting , all banned 

Still happen but at least illegal

A couple of dogs tearing themselves apart banned

A pack of hounds tearing a fox apart should be ok? and who knows in that scenario if a den of young Cubs are left to starve to death 

We know the results of indiscriminately killing, animals on the verge of extinction, wolves no longer roam our land, birds of prey only just hanging on

As custodians it up to us, we can wipe out the rainforest , not the same?

Destroy our oceans, not the same?

Breed animals in captivity that we destroyed in the wild, not the same?

The urban fox has evolved to live with us, we can destroy them too, label them as vermin?

And yet each animal on our planet serves a function, we have much to learn

And yet we breed cows for milk, remove and kill their male calves, care nothing for the bond twix mother and calf

And vegetarians and non vegetarians drink milk as if nothing has died to produce it

And the law of Kosher, meat and milk cannot be served together, the law is centuries old, “thou shall not cook the calf in its mother’s milk”

Simple and profound 

Reminding us of our position in this word of ours 

Sandra


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

The discussion started off on hunting with hounds Peter. Some people have always tried to defend it as being necessary for the control of foxes. I was explaining why my opinion is that their argument is completely bogus.


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## Webby1 (Mar 11, 2012)

patp said:


> There is another side to the local hunt that not many people will be aware of. Where there is a deer population there are often accidents that involve them. When an accident gets reported it is often the local hunt that will turn out at all times of the day or night to "deal" with the injured animal. This may involve a length search in poor conditions through dense undergrowth. Of course the fact that a tasty bit of venison might be involved has nothing to do with it I am sure


Pat I think you've answered your own question...............so I don't see it as another (positive) side of the hunt.

Say in a year, how often might the good people of the local hunt turn out to helpfully find and kill this injured deer.

Presumably they can't hunt deer normally so what an opportunity..............or am I being a bit cynical about the people in their lovely blood red coats


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## Webby1 (Mar 11, 2012)

erneboy said:


> The discussion started off on hunting with hounds Peter. Some people have always tried to defend it as being necessary for the control of foxes. I was explaining why my opinion is that their argument is completely bogus.


Oh yes their arguments are completely bogus.........but can be made to sound oh so reasonably............... so I don't think you need to explain anything......I agree.

For a moment when I saw Peter, I thought that another Peter had popped in to say that post Brexit we now free to

go out and shoot at all kinds of things previously banned by the EU shackles.

Reminds me of someone asking if after Brexit we would be free to spray DDT again..but that's another thread


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