# Private HGV - Drive on Car License?



## 116388

Hello, there's a lot of forum discussion 'around' this subject but nothing specific to what I am trying to find out.

A MH is for sale that was a 7.5ton commercial vehicle and has been professionally converterd (you'd think it was factory built) to a lovely MH and still below the 7.5ton threshold. It is now registered as *Private HGV *and MOT'd like a car. My question is, can I drive this on a car licence? I've held my license since 1984. I do not hold a HGV license of any category.

Many thanks and Happy Christmas to all.

Shane.....


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## b16duv

Shane,

To drive a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight between 3.5 and 7.5 tonnes, you will need a category C1 licence. If you passed your test in 1984 (same as me) you will automatically have this category.

To tow a trailer behind this size of vehicle, you will need a C1+E licence. Again, this should show on your licence.

The fact that it is a 'private' HGV is not relevant.

Anyone that tells you you can drive a motorhome over 3500kg on an ordinary licence is talking rubbish.

David


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## fdhadi

Yes, no probem. You are licenced to drive up to 7.5t, so go for it :wink: 

If you passed after 1997 you can only drive up to 3.5t unless you pass an LGV test.


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## 116388

Thank you Dave and Frank. I feel much better now. I can purchase this MH with confidence.

Shane.....

Liverpool ay? "I'm forever blowing bubbles"...........


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## b16duv

Shane,

Just double check you have C1 as a licence category. Enjoy your new toy!

David


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## 116388

b16duv said:


> Shane,
> 
> Just double check you have C1 as a licence category. Enjoy your new toy!
> 
> David


David,

Yes I do thankfully. Not bought it yet. Hopefully this evening. I will keep you informed. Enjoyment is on hold!

Shane.....


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## 101405

Yes you can drive this vehicle, But you cannot tow a trailer with this vehicle . you need to have passed the LGV test for vehicle and trailer.
you will have to have the vehicle description changed to motorcaravan and have it Inspected.or is it classed as a motorhome, ask for the converters declaration with the vehicle if you buy it , dont expect much in the way of fuel consuption with a 7.5tonner 10-12mpg. good luck.


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## nomad

Hi Shane,
I hope it doesn't affect you but just a warning that when reaching 70 years of age you will need to have a medical to keep your C1/D1 license.
Colin


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## b16duv

silversurfa said:


> Yes you can drive this vehicle, But you cannot tow a trailer with this vehicle . you need to have passed the LGV test for vehicle and trailer.


I would respectfully suggest that you are wrong Siversurfa. The Licence category to tow a trailer for this class of vehicle is C1+E.

David


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## sprokit

b16duv said:


> silversurfa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you can drive this vehicle, But you cannot tow a trailer with this vehicle . you need to have passed the LGV test for vehicle and trailer.
> 
> 
> 
> I would respectfully suggest that you are wrong Siversurfa. The Licence category to tow a trailer for this class of vehicle is C1+E.
> 
> David
Click to expand...

Correct - but check your licence all the same - most of us who gained this category by passing the driving test prior to 1st January 1997 lost the right to drive a combination with a maximum authorised mass in excess of 8,250 kilograms :roll: , unless we also held the higher Category CE licence  - so, with a 7,500 kilograms vehicle, you can only tow a trailer up to 750 kg max. weight. (It's called a Category Restriction and is shown as Code 107 on on the rear of your driving licence)

Keith (Sprokit)


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## b16duv

Good point Sprokit, but slightly incorrect.

In fact, on a C1+E licence the GCW gross combination weight cannot exceed 8250kg.

For a towing vehicle at 7500kg on the road, the trailer and its load could not exceed 750kg. 

However, if the towing vehicle weighed say 6750kg on the road, it could tow a trailer of 1500kg (6750+1500=8250). That is even if the towing vehicle had an allowable GVW of 7500kg. It is the weight on the road when in use that counts. 

David


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## sprokit

b16duv said:


> Good point Sprokit, but slightly incorrect.
> 
> In fact, on a C1+E licence the GCW gross combination weight cannot exceed 8250kg.
> 
> For a towing vehicle at 7500kg on the road, the trailer and its load could not exceed 750kg.
> 
> However, if the towing vehicle weighed say 6750kg on the road, it could tow a trailer of 1500kg (6750+1500=8250). That is even if the towing vehicle had an allowable GVW of 7500kg. It is the weight on the road when in use that counts.
> 
> David


David
In all my books (and in the Driver Licensing Regulations) it's referred to as the maximum authorised mass (Vehicle max weight + trailer max weight) - For driving licence purposes it matters not a wit that the actual weight of the vehicle and trailer combination is less than 8,250 kg, if the Gross Vehicle Weight plus the Trailer Gross Weight add up to more than 8,250 kg, an offence against driver licensing regs is committed - however, if the situation is as you describe, and the weights quoted are the plated weights (be it VIN plate or MOT plate) then there is no problem.

I don't know where you get your information, it is not the weight on the road, it's the MAM and/or plated weights (Sweet & Maxwell Road Transport Law - my bible on Transport Law)

Also see http://tinyurl.com/69mpy3
......The term maximum authorised mass (MAM), which is also known as gross weight and permissible maximum weight, is the maximum weight of the vehicle that may be used on the road including the maximum load the vehicle may safely carry. This is normally shown on a plate fitted to the vehicle.

If a vehicle is unlikely to be used at its potential maximum weight most vehicles may be downplated, i.e. the vehicles springs or other components can be changed, so that only a lighter load can be carried. The maximum authorised mass or gross weight is a factor in determining what driving entitlement is required.........

Keith (Sprokit)


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## b16duv

Keith,

Guess you have it covered there. I really should have paid more attention when I did my CPC!

David


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## 116388

Gentlemen, many thanks for your informative posts. I am very grateful to you.

Unfortunately I did not win the MH on Ebay this evening. It was a 1987 chassis Merc 811 converted to MH in 1995 and did look splendid. It sold for £6100 and was worth it but I bid to just £3500 in hope of a mega bargain (which looked likely until about 4 hours to go)! It has the 4l turbo diesel engine which the seller claims could tow a trailor with Smart Car and achieve 22mpg.

Anyway, there will be more bargains to be had and TBH I'm looking for a large high top panel van for better mpg. Preferably the boxy 4l Merc.

But the info. you all provided is locked away in the grey matter for another day. Thanks again.

Shane.....


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## eddievanbitz

Now I am confused 8O 

Keith , David Are you not not both saying the same thing? 8250K is the maximum? whichever the combination 7000Kg van and 1200Kg trailer or 7500kg van, and 750kg 

I towed a RIB behind my Winnebago (6500Kg and 1600Kg) are you saying that this was illegal?

I must admit that I gave it up as being 57 foot long touring around the South of France used to be a bit of a headache at times


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## locovan

When my husband got the New Licence at 70 he lost the C1 but we didn't notice at the time but it didn't matter as ours is under 3.5 T .
If you are driving that class of vehicle then check you don't loose the C1.
You maybe required to have to medical 
Mavis


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## wobby

eddievanbitz said:


> Now I am confused 8O
> 
> Keith , David Are you not not both saying the same thing? 8250K is the maximum? whichever the combination 7000Kg van and 1200Kg trailer or 7500kg van, and 750kg
> 
> I towed a RIB behind my Winnebago (6500Kg and 1600Kg) are you saying that this was illegal?
> 
> I must admit that I gave it up as being 57 foot long touring around the South of France used to be a bit of a headache at times


Me thinks, what is being said is the plated max weight of van plus trailer weight and its cargo mustn't be in excess of 8250 irrespective of what the actual weight of the van is. I think it makes sense as an unloaded 20 ton lorry is probable less than 7500 but we still aren't allowed to drive it.

wobby


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## locovan

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022547

All explained on this link

mavis


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## olley

Hi as has been said before, its the Plated weights that are important.

A PHGV plated at 7.5t cannot tow a trailer with a Plated weight of more than 750kg even if said trailer is empty.

The total Plated weights on a C1 licence of PHGV and trailer cannot add up to more than 8.25t.

Olley


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## eddievanbitz

The reason that I queried it is that they are both saying each other is wrong than saying that the combined weight of both van and trailer must not exceed 8250Kg


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## b16duv

eddievanbitz said:


> The reason that I queried it is that they are both saying each other is wrong than saying that the combined weight of both van and trailer must not exceed 8250Kg


Actually, I conceded to Sprokit's superior knowledge. My interpretation of the law as I stated is incorrect.

Yes, the limit is 8250kg, but the plated GVW of both vehicle and trailer must not exceed 8250kg.

So if the vehicle is plated at 7500kg, then the plated weight of the trailer cannot exceed 750kg, irrespective of the weights in operation.

David


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## sprokit

eddievanbitz said:


> Now I am confused 8O
> 
> Keith , David Are you not not both saying the same thing? 8250K is the maximum? whichever the combination 7000Kg van and 1200Kg trailer or 7500kg van, and 750kg
> 
> I towed a RIB behind my Winnebago (6500Kg and 1600Kg) are you saying that this was illegal?
> 
> I must admit that I gave it up as being 57 foot long touring around the South of France used to be a bit of a headache at times


Eddie

Sorry if our discussion confused you - you were driving legally (6,500 kg + 1,600 kg = 8,100 kg - within the 8,250 kg limit for restricted (107) C1+E)  - if I can give a few examples it may make things clearer 8)

1. Vehicle plated weight (GVW) = 5,000 kg
Trailer plated weight (TGW) = 2,500 kg
Total 7,500 kg - Legal on a C1+E restricted driving licence.
2. GVW = 6,500 kg / TGW = 1,500 kg - Total = 8,000 kg
Legal on C1+E restricted licence
3. GVW = 3,500 kg / TGW 3,500 kg - Total = 7,000
Legal on restricted C1+E licence
4. GVW = 6,500 kg / TGW = 2,500 kg - Total = 9,000 kg
Illegal on C1+E restricted licence.

*Now edited to correct stupid mistake* 

As I said in my previous post (first paragraph) it matters not a wit whether the vehicle is loaded to maximum or not - if the sum of the plated weights is more than 8,250 kg then a full unrestricted C1+E licence is required. 

Some time ago I put a document on MHF as a download - this explains driving licences and the various categories.

HTH

Keith (Sprokit)


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## Floozie2

Hi Shane

There's some good advice for you in the posts here! However, have a care about it being registered as a 'Private HGV'. I'm not sure whether that would mean a vehicle over 3.5t or 7.5t. and the short time I've surfed the net didn't throw anything up an answer to that. If it's the latter, the DVLA have it on record that your vehicle is *over* the 7.5t which means you'd need LGV C to drive it OR, if ou can prove its MAM is 7.5t, you sort out the registration problem. Even if it's under the 7.5t limit, if it's registered as HGV and you have a bump, there could be problems. You know what the authorities and insurance companies are like! Of course, if 'HGV' now apples to over 3.5t you're OK. I don't think it does, so do your research thoroughly.

For the reord, my 12t RV is registered Private HGV, so with the trailer, I'm on C+E. Expensive to aquire, but damned good fun!


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## ingram

Floozie2 said:


> Hi Shane
> 
> There's some good advice for you in the posts here! However, have a care about it being registered as a 'Private HGV'. I'm not sure whether that would mean a vehicle over 3.5t or 7.5t. and the short time I've surfed the net didn't throw anything up an answer to that. If it's the latter, the DVLA have it on record that your vehicle is *over* the 7.5t which means you'd need LGV C to drive it OR, if ou can prove its MAM is 7.5t, you sort out the registration problem. Even if it's under the 7.5t limit, if it's registered as HGV and you have a bump, there could be problems. You know what the authorities and insurance companies are like! Of course, if 'HGV' now apples to over 3.5t you're OK. I don't think it does, so do your research thoroughly.
> 
> For the reord, my 12t RV is registered Private HGV, so with the trailer, I'm on C+E. Expensive to aquire, but damned good fun!


If it over 3,500kg it should be registered as 'Private HGV' as is my 4,100kg MAM Autocruise.

Harvey


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## wobby

Just a thought, does it matter whether it's reg as private or not isn't that just to to with road fund taxation class and cost to put it on the road. Anyone in our age group will properly have a licence that allows us to drive up to 7500kg be it a motor home or a hgv commercial.

Wobby


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## locovan

wobby said:


> Just a thought, does it matter whether it's reg as private or not isn't that just to to with road fund taxation class and cost to put it on the road. Anyone in our age group will properly have a licence that allows us to drive up to 7500kg be it a motor home or a hgv commercial.
> 
> Wobby


Isnt it as long as you have C1 on the licence
Vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailer up to 750kg
C1
What do you do if a vehicle has been wrongly registered though as it seems to be.

Ray


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## Floozie2

ingram said:


> Floozie2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Shane
> 
> There's some good advice for you in the posts here! However, have a care about it being registered as a 'Private HGV'. I'm not sure whether that would mean a vehicle over 3.5t or 7.5t. and the short time I've surfed the net didn't throw anything up an answer to that. If it's the latter, the DVLA have it on record that your vehicle is *over* the 7.5t which means you'd need LGV C to drive it OR, if ou can prove its MAM is 7.5t, you sort out the registration problem. Even if it's under the 7.5t limit, if it's registered as HGV and you have a bump, there could be problems. You know what the authorities and insurance companies are like! Of course, if 'HGV' now apples to over 3.5t you're OK. I don't think it does, so do your research thoroughly.
> 
> For the reord, my 12t RV is registered Private HGV, so with the trailer, I'm on C+E. Expensive to aquire, but damned good fun!
> 
> 
> 
> If it over 3,500kg it should be registered as 'Private HGV' as is my 4,100kg MAM Autocruise.
> 
> Harvey
Click to expand...

I stand corrected, thanks Harvey. Good news for Shane! :lol: :lol: :lol: 
(Don't you just love these Sata emoticons?!  :lol:  8) )


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## olley

Hi I would think the difference between PHGV and HGV is to do with C&U. a PHGV is MOT as a car class 4 and doesn't require a tacho, an HGV is a class 7 MOT, yearly from new, and needs a tacho.

I would also guess you can't smoke in an HGV. :lol: 

Olley


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## Rosbotham

sprokit said:


> eddievanbitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if our discussion confused you - yes you were driving illegaly "other than in accordance with a driving licence"  - if I can give a few examples it may make things clearer 8)
> 
> 1. Vehicle plated weight (GVW) = 5,000 kg
> Trailer plated weight (TGW) = 2,500 kg
> Total 7,500 kg - Legal on a C1+E restricted driving licence.
> 2. GVW = 6,500 kg / TGW = 1,500 kg - Total = 8,000 kg
> Illegal on C1+E restricted licence
> 3. GVW = 3,500 kg / TGW 3,500 kg - Total = 7,000
> Legal on restricted C1+E licence
> 
> Keith (Sprokit)
> 
> 
> 
> Now I thought I understood this until I saw this example. Why is example 2 illegal? (or for that matter Eddie's setup?).
> 
> From the DVLA at this page, C1+E gives you;
> 
> Combinations of vehicles where the towing vehicle is in subcategory C1 and its trailer has a MAM of over 750kg provided that the MAM of the combination thus formed does not exceed 12000kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle. (If you passed your category B test prior to 1.1.1997 you will be restricted to a total weight not more than 8250kg)
> 
> ...and at this page it says;
> 
> If you passed the category C1+E test:
> 
> - before 1 January 1997 (shown as C1+E (107) on the licence) you are limited to driving such combinations up to a combined weight of 8.25 tonnes eg motorhome 6 tonnes, trailer 2.25 tonnes
> 
> Example 2 above is 6.5 tonnes + 1.5 tonnes = 8 tonnes which is less than 8.25 tonnes...indeed it's pretty much the same example the DVLA is saying *is* legal.
> 
> Am I missing something?
Click to expand...


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## sprokit

Rosbotham said:


> sprokit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eddievanbitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2. GVW = 6,500 kg / TGW = 1,500 kg - Total = 8,000 kg
> Illegal on C1+E restricted licence
> 
> Keith (Sprokit)
> 
> 
> 
> Now I thought I understood this until I saw this example. Why is example 2 illegal? (or for that matter Eddie's setup?).
> 
> From the DVLA at this page, C1+E gives you;
> 
> Combinations of vehicles where the towing vehicle is in subcategory C1 and its trailer has a MAM of over 750kg provided that the MAM of the combination thus formed does not exceed 12000kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle. (If you passed your category B test prior to 1.1.1997 you will be restricted to a total weight not more than 8250kg)
> 
> ...and at this page it says;
> 
> If you passed the category C1+E test:
> 
> - before 1 January 1997 (shown as C1+E (107) on the licence) you are limited to driving such combinations up to a combined weight of 8.25 tonnes eg motorhome 6 tonnes, trailer 2.25 tonnes
> 
> Example 2 above is 6.5 tonnes + 1.5 tonnes = 8 tonnes which is less than 8.25 tonnes...indeed it's pretty much the same example the DVLA is saying *is* legal.
> 
> Am I missing something?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apologies - something in my brain didn't quite make the connection - of course you are perfectly correct 8) - example 2 would be legal to drive on a restricted (107) C1+E (maximum authorised mass not exceeding 8,250 kilograms) - now I'll have to write out 100 times - "must check figures and engage brain"  .
> 
> Have now corrected my stupid mistake :roll:
> 
> Sorry if I confused anyone - just shows that people do read the posts and are prepared to correct "stupid" information
> 
> Keith (Sprokit)
Click to expand...


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## Rosbotham

No probs Keith...just making sure I wasn't going mad...


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## wobby

This has been an excellent thread as it has helped to clear the mist on this subject, Well done "Mr postman" 

Wobby


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## Codfinger

*driving licence*

Question..........are showmen still allowed to have an artic plus various trailers on behind ? as I recall they used to not have HGV permits but a showmans permit? No vehicle length restrictions do these things still apply?


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## teemyob

*Weight a Minute*

Hello,

Having read most of this topic, I decided to look at my license.

We passed our driving tests back in 1983. We have C1+E. So can drive up-to 8,250kG combination.

However,

I notice what looks like a Tag Axle and the wording "C" >3500 kG and that is blanked out!. Does this mean we cannot drive a Tag Axle (legaly)?

Trev


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## sprokit

*Re: Weight a Minute*



teemyob said:


> Hello,
> 
> Having read most of this topic, I decided to look at my license.
> 
> We passed our driving tests back in 1983. We have C1+E. So can drive up-to 8,250kG combination.
> 
> However,
> 
> I notice what looks like a Tag Axle and the wording "C" >3500 kG and that is blanked out!. Does this mean we cannot drive a Tag Axle (legaly)?
> 
> Trev


Hi Trev

I suspect you still have the old paper driving licence? Possibly issued in the days when we had HGV Class 1, 2 and 3 (3 was a two axle rigid, 2 was a multi-axle rigid and 1 was articulated) and the UK was just beginning to change over to the EU Harmonised licence categories - haven't seen one of those for ages.

Anyway, as you say you have the C1+E category on your licence, you can drive a tag axle, provided of course it doesn't weigh more than 7,500 kilograms, and the truck and any trailer don't have a MAM of more than 8,250 kg.

If anyone does still have a paper type driving licence, I'd advise they update them for the plastic "credit-card" type. I've been told that some of our continental enforcement friends are a bit tetchy about accepting the old paper licence (no photograph for ID purposes).

Keith (Sprokit)


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