# Legal advice wanted on parking motorhome at home..



## Hymervanman (Aug 20, 2010)

We are looking for any help or tips to solve a problem between us and the local council.
In a nutshell, our property is one of a row of four cottages which is a leasehold property with the Council. One of our neighbours has informed the council that we are parking our motorhome at our property (We have sectioned off part of the rear garden and securely gated/fenced the area)
There are two clauses in the lease which we did know about.
One states that we are "not to park or permit or suffer to be parked upon the demised premises or any part thereof any house on wheels or other mobile home". 
The council state in their letter that "parking of the motor home in your garden is a breach of this lease clause"
Another clause in our lease states that we are " not to park........any caravan or boat without the prior written consent of the Surveyor which consent if forthcoming shall if necessary specify conditions to be complied with as to suitable methods of screening...."
My qustion is.. are the council right in their definition of a motor home as it seems to me to come under the definition of a caravan if any at all? Can I also argue that it is a vehicle (private HGV) and is not covered by either of the two clauses?
Advice/help on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated- we need to reply by letter to acknowledge receipt and the council have staetd that we he have "say one month from date of letter" to remove our motorhome. Are we right in thinking that we can ask for a suspension of this imposed time limit until a satisfactory outcome is agreed??

Regards Stev


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## BrianJP (Sep 17, 2010)

You can probably get free legal advice via your home insurers and or motor insurers.
However to me certainly the spirit of the lease clauses is clear( ie. they dont want anything parked on the land) and should probably have included motor vehicles other than on any designated parking area , which would cover all eventualities.
I suspect that if pressed the council would simply ammend the clause in the lease to make things watertight.This sort of clause is often included as a covenant on private housing developments as many caravanners and motorhome owners will have found out about to their cost.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

You could try to buy the lease from the council, then you can probably park your MH there.

Buying a lease can cost as little as £500 plus legal expenses.

We've just had to do it, but for different reasons.


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## ramblingon (Jul 15, 2009)

This sounds quite specific to me. No caravans or motor homes- you could try "a breach of my human rights" and I'll see you in court, that may scare them away in these day's of hardship, better to guarantee that no one lives in said vehicle -and offer to screen it from the neighbours.

You could try talking to the neighbours first to see if you can bring them on side. This would help.

Good luck, meanwhile I would find some reasonable safe storage nearby. :wink: Or move!


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I presume parking on the road is not an option?


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## Brock (Jun 14, 2005)

We had a different problem with our local Council when we started parking the motorhome on our property. However, I suggest the solution is the same. 

We invited the Council's surveyor around, apologised for our lack of understanding, and explained what we were trying to achieve and why. We were polite etc. The Council accepted our stance, told us not to do it again, and we can park our motorhome on the property.

A few things the Council were interested in that may help you. How did we get the motorhome off the highway into our property - you need Council permission to lower curbs or build drives off the highway? Was the motorhome behind the building line and how visible was it to the neighbours? 

The Council are obliged to send you a stiffly worded letter when they get a complaint from the neighbours.

What you do depends on what sort of person your are. If you are aggressive then my advice is of no use. I would do several things:

1. Search the forum because this type of problem has been raised so many times.
2. Ring the Surveyor and invite him around.
3. Acknowledge the letter from the Council and say you have invited the surveyor around.
4. Show an understanding of the Council's concerns and look for ways to achieve what they want and what you want.
5. Look for secure local storage just in case the Council say no or impose unacceptable restrictions.
6. Think about how you are going to rebuild relationships with your neighbours.

I would not get involved in a debate as to whether the Council is right in interpreting whether your motorhome is caught by the clauses unless you have absolutely no choice.


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## Bryandh (Oct 6, 2010)

Brock said:


> We had a different problem with our local Council when we started parking the motorhome on our property. However, I suggest the solution is the same.
> 
> We invited the Council's surveyor around, apologised for our lack of understanding, and explained what we were trying to achieve and why. We were polite etc. The Council accepted our stance, told us not to do it again, and we can park our motorhome on the property.
> 
> ...


Excellent, sound all round advice....diplomacy is the way to go, do not threaten "see you in court" or similar language unless you have very deep pockets. "Mea culpa" and humble pie can work wonders


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Parking*

Hi

I agree with Ken n Liz - try to buy the lease. How much is your lease per year? Often, the lease will sell at about 10 x the annual price.

What ever happens, it is not worth a neighbourly dispute.

Russell


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## hblewett (Jan 28, 2008)

I would endorse everything Brock says. As someone who has had to enforce highway law (and as Brock says, you may have some of those too - but they can be overcome if the leasehold/covenant ones can too), I would say to avoid a confrontational approach - the Council has a legal department - you haven't - unless your home insurance can help.

I would add that, as far as planning law is concerned, it is my understanding (again, from posts on MHF) that a motorhome is considered to be the same as a caravan when it comes to parking it to sleep in (which is why drivers can sleep in their HGV's on the highway, but we're classed caravans when we do that and that's different?! But it gives you an opening in regard to the 'permission for caravans' part of the lease. 

It's worth remembering that the Council will effectively be referee between you and the complaining neighbour; the council surveyor will have to think what he/she would consider reasonable were he/she your neighbour viewing the issue impartially. They will want to deal with it as quickly as possible and in a way which does not leave them 'in the wrong', so this is all about negotiaiting a solution - the less said about 'your rights', the better. Good luck - I think you have a fair chance of sorting this out to your satisfaction.


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## Hymervanman (Aug 20, 2010)

Thanks for the quick replies guys...it's great to have others' points of view in times of crisis. Further to the above , there is a designated parking area that as far as I can interpret is not subject to the clauses as it is "not part of the demised premises" and at a push we could park our van there. I think I will take the softly softly non-confrontational stance at the moment and invite the Surveyor round. Our original idea was to use a piece of the garden and park the van away from the main parking area. As for the neighbours, it is unfortunately only the one- he was very confrontational when we bought the van and brought it home.. it will be hard to bring him on board even if we had the inclination to do so.
Would anyone know what enforcement options are open to the council, and does any ongoing dabate/correspondence delay the original time-frame given for moving our motorhome?
Regards Steve


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## hblewett (Jan 28, 2008)

Hymervanman said:


> Thanks for the quick replies guys...it's great to have others' points of view in times of crisis. Further to the above , there is a designated parking area that as far as I can interpret is not subject to the clauses as it is "not part of the demised premises" and at a push we could park our van there. I think I will take the softly softly non-confrontational stance at the moment and invite the Surveyor round. Our original idea was to use a piece of the garden and park the van away from the main parking area. As for the neighbours, it is unfortunately only the one- he was very confrontational when we bought the van and brought it home.. it will be hard to bring him on board even if we had the inclination to do so.
> Would anyone know what enforcement options are open to the council, and does any ongoing dabate/correspondence delay the original time-frame given for moving our motorhome?
> Regards Steve


I would think that ultimately they can get an injunction, which if you failed to obey, you would be in contempt of court. If the complainant is 'Mr Nasty' they will see this and that could be in your favour. The parking area will (presumably?) be the Council's private land, and parking will be subject to any rules which apply to that. This is where your motorhome becomes a motor vehicle, and because that might cause problems, you have taken the reasonable course to keep you r vehicle/motorhome out of everyone's way and sight. You could, of course park it on the road (though you have no 'right' to do so, it's just allowed so long as you are not causing an obstruction). But that would be far more obtrusive to the neighbourhood (wouldn't it?)


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Is, by any chance, the place you could park it even more annoying to the neighbour than where you park it now?

If so park it there - and when they complain say - "Sorry but there was a complaint when we tried to park it somewhere less obvious so it has to stay here now."

If you cannot be stopped from parking it in the parking area, then nothing can be done about it being parked there and if that annoys other people that's just tough.
However you can then offer to negotiate a solution, but it stays in the parking area until then.

Stanner
(Ex-Development Control Officer)


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## Hymervanman (Aug 20, 2010)

The parking area concerned is for use by all four houses and according to the lease we have the right "to pass and repass with or without vehicles at all times and for all purposes connected with the use and enjoyment of the demised premises ..... "
This is the area not covered by any of the clauses... we thought that we were doing everyone a favour by using our own land... I think that this is the route that we need to go down. 
This parking area is down a private track and not part of the public highway and the only caveat in using as far as I can tell is that you must not block anyone else's access ( to garages etc.)
Regards Steve


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## hblewett (Jan 28, 2008)

Looks like you can be afford reasonable and have a strong negotiating position. Who said "Talk softly and carry a big stick" - good advice for achieving what you want to my mind.


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## Bryandh (Oct 6, 2010)

hblewett said:


> Looks like you can be afford reasonable and have a strong negotiating position. Who said "Talk softly and carry a big stick" - good advice for achieving what you want to my mind.


Musta bin John Wayne :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

I have been in a similar situation. the council have to respond to a complaint, a gentle response plus the other very sensible replies will I am sure help you to come to a good solution. the other idea to see if you could buy the lease is a good idea as well, but they may well only sell if all want to buy, or you may have to buy all the leasses.

cabby


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

cabby said:


> .... or you may have to buy all the leasses.
> 
> cabby


Now there's a thought - what a hold you would have over your complaining neighbour.......... :lol:

But I do agree a quiet diplomatic approach is much more likely to achieve what you want, sadly from what it says they do have a case which would be difficult to argue with........

Our MH is now parked in a car park since we do not have space (along with 4 others) and that seems to be OK with all concerned....

Dave


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Coventant*

Hi

I had a bungalow some years ago with a restrictive covenant about trees. I was not to plant any trees or remove any. Anyway, there was a tree in the front garden and it was a pain in the butt, so I dug it up, stumps and all. The coventant was part of the paperwork supplied by Messrs Barratt Developments. Some days after the tree had gone, I had a visitor from the developer. I said I had never seen the tree before in my life, even though it was in a wheely bin feet from where we were standing. Amongst other things, the tree was disease riddled and I suspect it was only as old as the bungalow. My point being, it could be enforced in your case.

The council may want rid of the lease - it might be more trouble than it is worth to them.

Russell


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## tony645 (Sep 26, 2010)

A friend of mine, who lives in an end terraced cottage with an unmade track at the rear with land being used for allotments ,on which neighbours had erected garages etc. was offered by the landlord to purchase the lease to his house and rear land, as were all the other neighbours, none of them had paid groundrent for years which was only £2.50pa. They wanted £75 per. house, he was the only one to respond so they sold him the lot for £75.
He never really got on with his neighbours, and when he tried to collect the groundrents nobody paid him so he fenced the lot off.
One of the neighbours ripped down the fence at the rear of their house and he called the police who charged them with criminal damage. Since then they all pay their groundrent on the dot, and he can charge them for permision to erect buildings etc. and can control what and if goes on. None of them speak to him and he does`nt give a toss! 
ps. he got the £75 back within 18months and will get £47.50 per year for the next 879 years


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

The only thing that may be of concern is that your van is over 3.5 tonnes and is taxed as PHGV. I am not sure whether this may be a problem technically. Sometimes there are separate rules over HGV vehicles parking in areas of domestic properties.

I have a PHGV van and it is currently parked on my drive. When I lost my storage, I could not find anything suitable because of its length (8.2 metres). I canvassed my neighbours and none of them objected to it. The 2 problems I live with are, 1) One of them could raise an objection at any time and 2) Every passer by can see that we are away in the van and the house will be empty.

My advice is to have the back up plan of locating a storage facility.


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## Bubblehead (Mar 5, 2007)

Hi

The advice to talk to the surveyor is spot on. I would also move the van to the parking area and explain to the other neighbors that 'Mr nasty' has complained and try to get them onside. 

Explain that you have spent money to provide parking for your van so you didn't inconvenience them. Do not not try to forcefully bring them on side. And dont have a go at 'Mr Nasty' in their presence.

If you can get them onside it may influence Mr Nasty as they may comment to him that the van would be better parked in your garden.

Hope you get resolution

Andy


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Neighbours*

Steve,

I feel for you. It really pi55e5 me off when some small minded petty 8astards start be be 4rsey over parking of vehicles, without what sounds to me, good reason.

I suspect you are not blocking any light, obstructing pathways or doing anything nasty?. Petty and bitter jealousy. With all the doom and gloom in the world and all the bad things that can and do happen to people. I just can't comprehend why people have to be so begrudging.

I have been in a dispute with my evil, bitter twisted neighbours for some time, same reasons, similar circumstances.

I detailed it all on here with Photos. However, to keep it only viewable to MHF paid up members. I had to keep it in a section where after a certain time, it all gets removed.

In-Brief:

My next door but two neighbours had a Caravan, stored on driveway in full view of all the neighbours. Then Mrs. Twunt decided she did not want to caravan anymore so they sold it. Mr. Twunt was quite sad.

Then after a few years, we got a motorhome. Beautiful machine all gleaming. Drove it on to our drive where it sits in the corner, not blocking anyones light or causing any obstruction on our own private land.

Mr & Mrs Twunt went the deepest shade of green you have ever seen. That is where the trouble started and still goes on today. Not from my immediate neighbours but from those who's house I have to drive past to get to mine!.

Solicitors
Local Council
Police

All involved. But our motorhome is still on our land, six years on.

If you want any advice on how to deal with the situation. I would be happy to help where I can.

But for obvious reasons, it will have to be via PM/email.

One piece of advice I would give is not to involve Solicitors unless you are covered on your Insurance. Far better to deal with the case and defend it yourself. It is a lot easier than people think. Sounds daunting but Solicitors can make a real balls of things unless they are very good and specialised in what they do. Which I doubt you will get unless you have pots of cash.

*Study and get to know the laws.
*Find loopholes (like the one mentioned above)
*Know what you are talking about
*Document everything. Every single detail.
*Always remain calm

Best of Luck

TM


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## ramblingon (Jul 15, 2009)

Yes should it ever get to legal matters remember you must be seen to be reasonable at all times -this is of paramount importance. Ask your neighbour where he would like you to park your property? :lol: but have a neutral witness to all conversations , and keep a physical distance preferably on public land and with out anything on your person that may be construed by a fevered brain as a weapon! :roll:


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*fence*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10568441

Death over 12 inches of fence

TM


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

I think that the way that the restrictions have been worded shows a particular intent at the time they were first drafted that should help you. I would contend when talking to the council that the prohibition on mobile homes was and is designed to prevent the semi-static variety being "erected" in the garden with the obvious purpose of preventing people living in them. If it had been intended to merely prevent the parking of large vehicles and similar, then there would not have been a separate restriction for caravans and boats. They would have been included in the one that refers to mobile homes. I obviously don't know when the wording in the leases was first drafted but it is quite possible that motorhomes were not as populous then as they are now and that is why they were not mentioned along with caravans and boats. 

Therefore I agree with what others have suggested - use the diplomatic approach and meet with the surveyor and see if he will treat your motorhome as a caravan for the purpose of giving consent.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

You may wish to know that local government define a caravan in a way that clearly encompasses a motorcaravan/motorhome.

LGFA 1988: "Caravan means any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) *and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted * "

I have mentioned this many times before on MHF but many have said it is not relevant.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

ramblingon said:


> This sounds quite specific to me. No caravans or motor homes- you could try "a breach of my human rights" and I'll see you in court, that may scare them away in these day's of hardship, better to guarantee that no one lives in said vehicle -and offer to screen it from the neighbours.
> 
> You could try talking to the neighbours first to see if you can bring them on side. This would help.
> 
> Good luck, meanwhile I would find some reasonable safe storage nearby. :wink: Or move!


You might not be too far of the mark there ramblington, we've just moved and once we were certain this is what we wanted.

Before paying any money, I tried to get the MH into the reasonably wide drive, as were on a steepish hill, I chose to drive up and roll back into the drive to save wear and tear on the clutch, but no chance, it's narrow road and I couldn't get enough lock on.

I got out to investigate, the off side rear wheel was about an inch from the gate post, the top of the MH the other side was about to hit a lamp post because of the angle of lean.

So two probs widen the drive AND move the lamp post, not what we wanted to know after searching for over a year.

First off, I rang the lighting department to check it could be moved, maybe they said but we'll need to do a survey, and it will be approx £1500, whoa I said, just because I have a large vehicle, you expect me to pay for your cock up in placing a lamp post so close to a drive on a steep hill.

I was advised I could make a complaint, I did, first letter said no chance, so I went to stage three, I got a letter so full of BS it was hard to read, but they saved the best till last, final paragraph said basically, that they could not anticipate what type of vehicle might want to get into my drive, but they were willing to move it Gratis free and for bugger all, as gesture of good will.

My wording in my complaint was a lot stronger and I did accuse them at stage two of infringing my right to park a caravan on my own property especially as other residents in the same street were able to do so, it was no fault of mine that the planners had not thought that this house too might like the same facility.

So go for it, you might win your argument, but it won't cost you anything to try.


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## ramblingon (Jul 15, 2009)

Yes I have been told council officials do seem to shy away from "breach of my human rights " talk- if illegals and rapists can use it why not the common man?

I would say that you felt it was socially divisive preventing the owner of an ex-council property from doing what other residents in the area are able to do freely! but save that as a last resort, and don't employ a solicitor, just head each correspondence " without prejudice" this usually covers you for cock ups. Never loose your rag, and always take your time to reply if you can even if it is to say "I am considering your last communication and will respond as soon as possible".

Golden rule don't let it stress you out and be seen to be reasonable. :wink:


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## hblewett (Jan 28, 2008)

peribro said:


> I think that the way that the restrictions have been worded shows a particular intent at the time they were first drafted that should help you. I would contend when talking to the council that the prohibition on mobile homes was and is designed to prevent the semi-static variety being "erected" in the garden with the obvious purpose of preventing people living in them. If it had been intended to merely prevent the parking of large vehicles and similar, then there would not have been a separate restriction for caravans and boats. They would have been included in the one that refers to mobile homes. I obviously don't know when the wording in the leases was first drafted but it is quite possible that motorhomes were not as populous then as they are now and that is why they were not mentioned along with caravans and boats.
> 
> Therefore I agree with what others have suggested - use the diplomatic approach and meet with the surveyor and see if he will treat your motorhome as a caravan for the purpose of giving consent.


This post leads me to ask - what if you had a van, for your work. There is nothing to say you couldn't park that, so what is the difference?


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## ramblingon (Jul 15, 2009)

"Without prejudice" explained. (Unable to add/edit to previous post.)

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=without+prejudice&rls=com.microsoft:en-GB:{referrer:source?}&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GZAZ&redir_esc=&ei=yhUzTffCJouOjAfj3tjLCg

5th item down best concise definition.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> it was no fault of mine that the planners had not thought that this house too might like the same facility.


Please don't blame "planners" for the siting of lamposts or how someone chooses to build their drive off a road on a hill - it's nothing to do with them.

Blame God for building the hill in the wrong place.


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## Hymervanman (Aug 20, 2010)

"This post leads me to ask - what if you had a van, for your work. There is nothing to say you couldn't park that, so what is the difference?"

I actually operate a van (Mercedes Vario) from our house and have an operators licence for this. VOSA checked the parking area was "off-road" and the licence covers me for a 7.5T van. My neighbour confronted me about this and told me that I was extracting the urine..
We have drafted a letter to the council expressing our suprise that they consider a motorhome to be defined as a mobile home, whereas DVLA class it as a vehicle and it could also be considered as a caravan, and have invited the Chief Surveyor to a site visit. The main thrust of our defence is that the parking area would appear to be exempt from covenants whereas the garden area is not, and we thought that we would actually be doing a favour to our neighbour by freeing up parking space.
Fingers crossed and I'll keep you all posted, but please comments and suggestions are welcome as I feel that we have some distance to go. We also suggested that their imposed timeframe for moving the van (1 month from letter) should be suspended until an amicable agreement can be reached.
Regards Steve


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## hblewett (Jan 28, 2008)

Sounds like a good place to start. Of course the month is there because they have to say something, so they can reply to the complainant accordingly. At the end of the day you can stay there until enforcement action is taken (if ever). But its certainly better that your response takes their position seriously.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Loophole*



sallytrafic said:


> You may wish to know that local government define a caravan in a way that clearly encompasses a motorcaravan/motorhome.
> 
> LGFA 1988: "Caravan means any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) *and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted * "
> 
> I have mentioned this many times before on MHF but many have said it is not relevant.


And there is a loophole for that too!


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

ramblingon said:


> "Without prejudice" explained. (Unable to add/edit to previous post.)
> 
> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=without+prejudice&rls=com.microsoft:en-GB:{referrer:source?}&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GZAZ&redir_esc=&ei=yhUzTffCJouOjAfj3tjLCg
> 
> 5th item down best concise definition.


Part of the loophole.

No further comment in an open forum.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

hblewett said:


> Sounds like a good place to start. Of course the month is there because they have to say something, so they can reply to the complainant accordingly. At the end of the day you can stay there until enforcement action is taken (if ever). But its certainly better that your response takes their position seriously.


"Enforcement action" is usually only related to planning contraventions, which is not the case here, this is a "what it says in your leasehold" matter which may or may not be dealt with in the same sort of way.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*info*

lots of info and help available
Here


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## Hymervanman (Aug 20, 2010)

Update- we have the surveyor from the town hall coming in the next couple of days for a site visit. We invited him along to hopefully put our position across and obtain his approval. No more details at the moment for obvious reasons.
Thanks to all the replies which suggested a "friendly" approach- we feel that we have have put forward a reasonable solution- and we have a plan B if all else fails.... 
More updates to follow.....


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## ramblingon (Jul 15, 2009)

The best of luck. :wink:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Follow up to my plan.

Street light planners have been out and marked the position for the lamp move.


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## Hymervanman (Aug 20, 2010)

I thought that I would share my views on the outcome of the initial problem that we had of parking our van on our property.
In summary, a neighbour had objected to our motorhome being parked on the property as he assumed that it was in breach of a restrictive covenant imposed by the council. 
After much discussion and exchange of correspondence we finally gained permission to keep the van in situ as the council agreed to class it as a caravan, and so gave us permission as one of the clauses stated such, subject to suitable screening. We had argued that the six foot fence was suitable screening, but we have conceded to a planting scheme to soften the effect of the fence and the part of the motorhome that can still be seen.
The irony of the situation was that we fenced off the garden to accommodate the motorhome and make it more secure, when we actually could have left it on the communal parking area as this area was not actually covered by the covenant. I think that the council surveyor realised this when we mentioned that should we not get their permission then we would do exactly that.
The moral of the story would seem to be to persevere with your beliefs and argue your point, and although we have had the costs of fencing and screening to cover, the whole situation is a lot more convenient than storage elsewhere.


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## Sprinta (Sep 15, 2010)

a sensible answer to your problem by the council - welcome news these days

now then, about your neighbour .......... be careful to dispose of the body where it can't be found :lol:


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## urbanracer (Aug 22, 2007)

Sprinta said:


> a sensible answer to your problem by the council - welcome news these days
> 
> now then, about your neighbour .......... be careful to dispose of the body where it can't be found :lol:


It should help the new green screening to grow and its organic


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