# Amperor Power Integrator



## sallytrafic

The Amperor power integrator is:

A solar/wind MPPT controller
A Battery to Battery charger (replacing a split charge system)
A Vehicle battery top up charger (does the same job as as battery master)

In their words "The Power Integrator takes inputs from the vehicle alternator, solar panel and wind generator then provides the optimum charge for the leisure battery. The unit can boost the input from the alternator, turning it into a multi-stage charging output more suitable for a leisure battery. When used in solar/wind mode, the system acts as a regulator which can also trickle charge the starter battery and help combat drain during winter storage."










This device has been mentioned before by a trade member in the solar sub forum but as it does a lot more than solar I thought I would bring it up here.

I haven't got one yet but I'm actively looking how I could fit it as an after market addition to my Chausson. It won't be straightforward. As there are already two relays a distribution system and a control panel integrated together.

Amperor were really quick in sending me an email with 6 pdf's attached to describe the product, accessories, and installation information.

Link to their website


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## joedenise

its probably good if you're starting from scratch but if you've already got solar panels with a regulator and everything is working OK, why change it, and there are cheaper solutions for battery to battery charging.

Joe


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## sallytrafic

Oh I agree but if adding a solar panel and an MPPT controller is often done after market so the opportunity to upgrade everything at once is appealing (you still need your hook up charger).

But first I have to figure out what the French wiring diagram of my Chausson really means. The D+ from the alternator (or HP?) Ford wirig connection into the distribution panel. I expect it is used to operate the split charge relay box and also to trigger the alternator charging indicator on the control panel but if I do away with the split charging relay box hmmmmm 

As well as control inputs to my *two* relay boxes there are power outputs and 'signalling outputs all of which go to the distribution system and and etc


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## joedenise

Yes, agree when you're fitting other stuff. If you've already got a solar panel, as we have, it wouldn't be worth fitting.

Thanks for the information on the Chausson - but you lost me after the D+ :lol: 

Joe


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## gromett

Thanks for that Frank. Shame I didn't see it earlier as I have just bid on a 50amp B2B charger. If I lose the auction I will go for one of these 

Karl


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## gromett

Any chance of a link to the PDF's please?

Karl


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## gromett

sorry for multiple posts. This is the item I am bidding on.
Ebay link.

Karl


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## sallytrafic

Did you win Karl


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## gromett

yup, all mine. Not sure whether to laugh or cry 8O 
Got it at a good price and it is 50Amps. on the downside an integrated box would have been easier but it's only 25Amps.

Karl


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## howardch99

Sallytrafic,

My name is Howard Chang. I'm from Amperor. Thanks for mentioning our product at the forum. We have created a power integrator product launching page which includes a better product description, a FAQ and a resource download section. Please come to visit the page and let me know if you still have any questions about the product.

Regards,
Howard Chang


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## sallytrafic

Sorry Howard only just noticed this, will do tomorrow.


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## sallytrafic

I have fitted the Amperor PI

As suspected the only difficulty was fooling my dc distribution system and getting a Alternator D+ signal from the CAN bus system. The actual connecting of the PI was simple although I have some minor issues with the documentation and one minor design reservation.

Howard Chang is going to provide a couple of technical answers for me.

It was nice seeing 22 Amps going into my leisure battery from an engine run and now I need some sun to check out the solar side. 

[Briefly my existing system has two relay boxes controlled by the microcontroller in an Nordelletronica NE205 dc distribution. When operated both batteries are connected to a common bus. This would take away the B2B function of the PI. I needed to bypass the one controlling the vehicle connection whilst maintaining its operation so that the dc system thinks it is operating normally, and for example powering the 12V side of the fridge etc only when the engine is running. This was simply achieved once I had worked out exactly what was happening. The microcontroller also provides a simulated D+ once the can bus tells it that the ignition is on and the relay box tells the system that it has connected the vehicle battery]


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## pieterv

Hi Frank,

Just came accross this thread, so a bit slow to respond, sorry.

I was wondering about the need for a B2B charger with a new vehicle. I thought modern alternators already put out 14.4-14.6V (mine on a 2003 Ducato based van does). 

So, is there any gain to be had from the B2B? What is your experience comparing before/after the installation?

Thanks,

Pieter


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## sallytrafic

I have just seen this post sorry to have ignored it.

I agree that modern alternator systems put out a higher voltage than previously BUT they are fooled by the vehicle batteries requirements. The vehicle battery is typically close to the alternator and connected by low resistance cables the habitation battery is further away and current limited by the supply cables relay contacts and fuses. 

The effect of this is that as the vehicle battery is brought to a fully charged state, say after 20 minutes following a single start, the terminal voltage on the vehicle battery has effectively backed off the alternator resuting in less current for the habitation battery. A B2B system acts as a load on the system dragging the voltage seen by the alternator down, in response the alternator increases its output. The B2B system takes this current and delivers it at a higher voltage to the habitation battery thus ensuring that it receives a good charge for longer than 20 minutes. 

I hope this rather simplistic answer suffices.


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## sallytrafic

This was my answer to a pm that I recently received. Well as you may have read there were teething problems but they have settled down and I now am very pleased with the system. 

Fitting was not straightforward. The Chausson has relay boxes for both the vehicle battery and habitation these have to operate normally for the Chausson power distribution system to work but the Amperor B2B and trickle charge requires that there is a direct connection to the vehicle battery. So I have left the relay boxes in circuit but bypassed the main power contractor so the auxiliary parts of the relay boxes still operate.. That way all the chausson auxiliary circuits and microprocessor systems work and I could reconnect them with a few minutes work. 

The Amperor requires a signal to show that the alternator is on line and was designed to be triggered by the ignition light circuitry (D+ connection), however modern vans do not use this old fashioned method so the direct connection to one side of the ignition light was not possible. However on the dc distribution mother board there was a terminal marked 'Ignition +' which went high when the alternator came on line so I took a feed to the Amperor from there. Note that this terminal might have been designed to be an input! 

There is a downside. The Chausson fridge wiring is energised to 12V when the vehicle battery relay operates. So this happens after the alternator comes on line and is unaffected by the modifications. However the actual power now comes from whichever battery is supplying the load and this is controlled by the Amperor. If the signal that the alternator is running is missed by the Amperor the B2B system will not operate and the effect of this will be to rapidly discharge the habitation battery which will be left powering the distribution system and hence the fridge at around 10A. There is an led on the Amperor control panel which shows whether the input is from the alternator or from solar so before setting off on a long run we check to see that it has changed over. 

How does it miss the alternator signal? Well its a rare occasion so I haven't had the time or inclination to find out. I came up with four possibilities. 

1. The signal from the "ignition +" circuit on the motherboard is sometimes not present, I think this is unlikely as it seems to be the signal that is used to switch the fridge to 12V. 

2. The Amperor is triggered by a rising pulse rather than a level voltage and this may change too slowly to act as a trigger. I would need an oscilloscope and some patience to test this theory. 

3. Interaction between the two systems. Of necessity they are close together and its a very noisy electronic environment. 

4. A sulk mode by the Amperor perhaps caused when the control panel display is turned off. 

I lean towards '4'. 

I think it may be to do with the control panel, it seems to me that the Amperor will occasionally go into a 'sulk' mode if the off switch is used on the panel. This switch, according to Amperor, is merely to turn the control panel display off, not the main unit and I think I agree with them however this fault has only manifested itself with the panel turned off so now I leave it on. The LED display serves to illuminate the way to the loo at night but is not visible from the bed. 

On the last occasion that the fault manifested itself (perhaps 6 months ago and when I had inadvertantly switched the control panel off) I gained access to the Amperor main unit and all its indicating lights were off. I pressed reset there and all was immediately well. 

To answer your question about systems interfering more fully I too was worried that with all the microprocessors and microcontrollers (I also have a NASA battery monitor) there would be interference between systems. Apart from the problem mentioned above all seems to be well. 

Recommendation. If I was starting from scratch or modifying an older vehicle I would certainly build my dc power system around an Amperor Integrator. Only experienced people should undertake to retro fit one to a vehicle with complicated italian electronics!


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## sallytrafic

I have realised that I don't think I have made it clear that Amperor gave me an integrator to install on the proviso that I reported on it. Well I think I have kept my side of the bargain especially in my reporting of the various teething problems to them and my recommendations on changes to their manual.

For their part Amperor provided technical back up which included replacing the unit originally supplied (so they could carry out an investigation) when I visited their office in Ayrshire.


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## WildThingsKev

Thanks for that comprehensive reply Frank.

It is as I feared really, the Amperor looks ideal for a selfbuid or for a small van converter but a bit awkward to add into an existing modern van. I've also read similar reports of conflicts with Sterling and CTEK B2B chargers in modern vans too even with professional installation, they all seem to need more technical modifications than the installation schematics suggest.

I think I will probably go for the CTEK D250S Dual as it doesn't need the ignition trigger (must be voltage sensing as the Sterling|). * "Bagshanty"* recently replied to me on the fitting of one of these to his Rapido. I'm sure he won't mind if I reproduce his (edited) pm here in a relevant thread.

_Hi Kev. I have screwed the unit to the bulkhead close to the existing fusebox, breaking into the lead before it reaches the fusebox + IN connection, then taking the output to the same +IN connection. This gives me a continuous 20 amps (as measured by the CBE meter, which still functions) but only when the fridge is off, with the fridge on it drops to 4 amps. This is to be expected, because the fridge comes off the fusebox, where there are also ignition relays.

So if real charging is required I turn off the fridge - it will stay cold for hours (or turn to gas)

Because the Rapido fusebox disconnects the incoming 12 volts when the ignition is off, the solar panel connection cannot be used, as there is then no circuit to the battery. I have my solar panel running straight from the SP controller to the battery, which means I can only tell what the solar current is by switching on lights until the voltage is 12.7 then reading the current (with engine off)

Just remembered the 2nd config I considered: Start as my original config, but run the output direct to the battery. This would allow the SP function to work, but the CBE meter current reading wouldn't, except for discharge.

I have to say I haven't used it in anger yet. Since I've fitted it we've always had hookup. It's intended purpose is for our extended trips abroad (Albania this year, see www.pippins.me.uk)

The 40 amp Sterling sounds good in principle, but you can't use existing wiring, and there are some unknown Rapido connections between vehicle battery and the domestic fusebox. CTEK does have the advantage of being easy to fit, and not needing massive cooling - it doesn't seem to get very warm at all. _


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## dovtrams

I am off to read War and Peace in Hebrew, maybe make more sense to me. 

Dave


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## Bamboozled

Hi Sallytrafic,
I'm selfbuilding and considering the battery charging options from scratch.
I have chosen 200ah of AGM batts and need a charging option which will not fry them so a lower current B to B converter is in the running.
The two 20/25A units which include an MPPT available are the CTEC D250s and the Amperor. I just wonder if you have any up to date comments on the latter and especially on the solar performance.
Many thanks !


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## sallytrafic

Bamboozled said:


> Hi Sallytrafic,
> I'm selfbuilding and considering the battery charging options from scratch.
> I have chosen 200ah of AGM batts and need a charging option which will not fry them so a lower current B to B converter is in the running.
> The two 20/25A units which include an MPPT available are the CTEC D250s and the Amperor. I just wonder if you have any up to date comments on the latter and especially on the solar performance.
> Many thanks !


Just seen this will comment later today


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## sallytrafic

Apart from some initial teething problems and some corrections to the installation instructions my Amperor has done all that it says on the tin for the last two years. Haven't done any comparisons with what should have been achieved on any one day as there has been no need apart from the depths of winter both habitation and vehicle batteries have been brim full.

We don't use that much power. 

Also good correlation with my NASA battery monitor so I know longer fret.

220Ahr wet cells, Kyocera 130W panel.


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## 747

The one thing that puzzles me about the information from Amperor is the claim for Wind Turbine charging.

MPPT controllers are claimed to be the best to maximise Solar charging yet they are not recommended for Wind Turbines. PWM are recommended instead. I am not 100% certain of the reason but I believe the many fluctuations in turbine output are not always picked up by the MPPT system and it affects efficiency.

Therefore, I find it strange that they can claim to be the best for Solar AND Wind power.


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## Bamboozled

Thanks for your reply Frank,
sounds good that it's installation has fallen into the background and that it is quietly supporting your motorhome needs.

Once looking at the area available on my roof I realised that I might want to exceed 200w max solar in the future so need to look at another scheme.

I sometimes wonder if I make it to the day when i'll stop fretting !


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## sallytrafic

747 said:


> The one thing that puzzles me about the information from Amperor is the claim for Wind Turbine charging.
> 
> MPPT controllers are claimed to be the best to maximise Solar charging yet they are not recommended for Wind Turbines. PWM are recommended instead. I am not 100% certain of the reason but I believe the many fluctuations in turbine output are not always picked up by the MPPT system and it affects efficiency.
> 
> Therefore, I find it strange that they can claim to be the best for Solar AND Wind power.


Although the inputs are marked up WIND and SOLAR You can put solar into both inputs if you need to (ie have more than 100W) but wind power can ONLY be connected to the one Marked WIND perhaps thats the difference.


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## Alan_F

hopefully I can resurrect this thread, with problems I am having with my motorhome (Dethleffs A Class) and it's Amperor charging system.

I bought this van from Glossop's and when it went in for its pre sales check over they said that the alternator had gone, they duly replaced it, and 4 weeks later when picking it up they said it had gone again (delay tactics I wonder) anyway I complained like hell, and we got the van with a new alternator (they said).

after having it a month or so I noticed that the dashboard warning lights, ASR, Handbrake, and Brake Fluid were flashing on and off intermittently, and on the Amperor system control panel, the voltage was jumping up and down between 14 and 18 volts, so I just thought ill check both batteries as they had been new ones from Glossop's, both batteries terminals were loose, so I tightened them up and everything was fine for a few weeks. Anyway this month same things happened again about 50 or 60 miles into a journey the Amperor system shows that both batteries are fully charged and charging at 14.3v, then it happens again and starts over charging, also this time when starting the engine, the battery light stayed on twice, I then restarted and it went off, so yes I know there is a problem with the alternator now more than likely.

Question is, how will I find out if this is the original size of alternator that Glossop's put on, or it may be an inferior type/wrong alternator that can't cope with giving max load out to the Amperor, or is the Amperor system killing the alternators, or is the alternator the wrong one that they have put on that is the none sensing type, when the original one had a sensing alternator that works with the ECU of the van.

I don't want to buy the wrong type and have it fitted, as a garage will surely go off whats ever fitted and just replace it.

sorry for the long winded post, but I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place with this dilemma and hope any of the original posters can help even though this business (Amperor Associates have gone bust) also if anyone has the original Amperor pdf's that would be helpful.


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## Pudsey_Bear

Hi Alan and welcome to MHF, I'd be inclined to go back to Glossop Caravans with this, it seems a reasonable time for things to still be working as they should, if you have found loose battery clamps, what else might they have not done right.


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## Andy s

Hello Sally traffic, do you still have the instruction for the power integrator, I am trying to find out the SW1 & SW2 position for different battery types. Amperor associates may have stopped trading, I have tried to get a download for the instruction without success . Thanks.


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## EJB

Haven't seen Frank here for a long time however:-
https://franksblog.webnode.com/blog/
I think his blog is still active.


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## jiwawa

No, Frank (Sallytraffic) hasn't contributed since Jan 2014. Hopefully you'll get him on the blog.


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## nads

Please can anyone help, I seem to be having problems with my power integrator after removing it from my old van and installing it on my new one. I have done everything the same barring I can't say for sure that i have got the ignition wire on the D+. The wire i did put it on only seemed to power once the key was turned. I can't find the manual and currently i just want to cry, I feel like it's one thing after another at the mo.


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## jiwawa

Hi nads n welcome to the forum.

Have you looked through this post? Frank (sallytraffic) and the API people both provide links to documentation and Frank mentions difficulty with the D+ so you might get pointers there?


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## rustanov

sallytrafic said:


> The Amperor power integrator is:
> 
> A solar/wind MPPT controller
> A Battery to Battery charger (replacing a split charge system)
> A Vehicle battery top up charger (does the same job as as battery master)
> 
> In their words "The Power Integrator takes inputs from the vehicle alternator, solar panel and wind generator then provides the optimum charge for the leisure battery. The unit can boost the input from the alternator, turning it into a multi-stage charging output more suitable for a leisure battery. When used in solar/wind mode, the system acts as a regulator which can also trickle charge the starter battery and help combat drain during winter storage."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This device has been mentioned before by a trade member in the solar sub forum but as it does a lot more than solar I thought I would bring it up here.
> 
> I haven't got one yet but I'm actively looking how I could fit it as an after market addition to my Chausson. It won't be straightforward. As there are already two relays a distribution system and a control panel integrated together.
> 
> Amperor were really quick in sending me an email with 6 pdf's attached to describe the product, accessories, and installation information.
> 
> Link to their website


I would be glad if you share your experiences after installation and first run.


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## Pudsey_Bear

This is a old thread and the member has left the forum.


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## jiwawa

Do you have a particular problem someone might help you with rustanov?

As said, sallytraffic is no longer around but perhaps someone else might help if you explain what you're looking for?


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## EJB

Reported as Spam!


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## jiwawa

EJB said:


> Reported as Spam!


What's spam Ted?


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## Pudsey_Bear

Why do you think its spam Ted?


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## EJB

Seen the same post in the past leading nowhere.


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