# Got The Smart, Had the A frame fitted - need help please



## 99043 (May 4, 2006)

We've opted for the Smart/A frame combination

According to the A frame user manual as supplied by Towtal (can't get hold of them today), I


> The key should be positioned so that the steering lock is released, but no electrics are active


Now I've tried this, and my first position puts the electrics on, I can't get a steering lock to engage even without any key in

Does it even have steering lock? 
If it doesn't, do I need the key in at all?

Could someone who has this set up please give me some advice - I am happy to go on PM, I know this can be a touchy subject.

I'm hoping to link the two together today and try towing - I'm hoping all you Smart A framers aren't out enjoying the sunshine 

Thanks in anticipation 
Gillian


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## 92180 (May 1, 2005)

the Smart ForTwo does not have a steering lock it has a reverse gear lock.
Put in key move to position 1 put on foot brake move lever to N Neutral and turn key back and remove. This is for the Passion model auto/manual box.


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## 99043 (May 4, 2006)

Thank you Asgard, for the details and very prompt response...
can go and play now 

Gillian


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## javea (Jun 8, 2007)

Could I advise some caution before you start towing your Smart car any distance with an A Frame. I am sure that if you talk to your dealer he will confirm that they do not recommend towing a Smart because of the automatic gearbox. I have a Smart at my holiday home in Spain and whilst I was away for a few months the battery failed. It was not possible to engage any gears even when the new battery was fitted, and it had to be taken by breakdown truck to the Mercedes dealer in Alicante. The bill just to sort out the problem came to £560. The labour charge in Spain was the equivalent of £29 per hour, considerably lower than the UK and you could end up with a very substantial bill. I towed mine on a trailer, more expensive initially than an A frame, but a lot cheaper in the long run! Don't ever use an A frame in France or Spain - they do not like them!! Hope these comments will be helpful to you.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

This issue of *To Tow Or Not To Tow* never seems to go away. I've heard so many contradicting statements about it ("Yes, definitely no problem" -v- "Don't for God's sake tow a Smart Car") that I'd for one like some authoritative information.

Dougie.


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## motoroamin (May 22, 2006)

Like javea03730 I also have concern about towing a Smart. I have heard one anecdotal report of a Smart catching fire when towed on a 'A' frame, but cannot confirm if this was due to the gearbox overheating or some other problem.

It is vital to check with Smart in my view....


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

The definitive statement on A frames is that towing anything on them is illegal, in the UK or abroad

They are legal to tow a broken down vehicle from the loaction it broke down to the nearest garage. It has nothing to do with the weight of the vehicle towing or being towed, braked or unbraked.

The cons and use regs are very clear.

OK, UK police may ignore. But the suggestion that visiting long distance non break down use on continent is OK and you can jusrtify it because it is allowed in UK and you are just visiting doesn't work for two resason.

1. it is not legal here so it cannot be legal in europe on the basis it is legal here

2. whilst a vehicle or trailer legal in one country and maybe not in another can be imported and used temporarily in the second country under EU rules an A frame is neither a trailer nor a vehicle. 

This means the ordinary rules of the country being visited apply just like speed limits, hi visibility jackets, warning triangles, light bulbs etc etc


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## Chascass (May 10, 2007)

Hi Javea 03730

I am a little confused, are you saying the damage to your Smart in Spain was done by towing it with an A Frame ? (you say you use a trailer)

If you do not use an A Frame, what has the damage got to do with an A Frame.?


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

A frames are a perfectly safe way to tow a car behind a motorhome and until proved otherwise in a court of law in this country are a legal way of towing thats why the police and other authorities do not stop their use. There are many hundreds of us using the proper braked versions safely in this country and in europe and the numbers are growing daily. The two main suppliers have full order books months in advance and are even attracting enquiries from garages abroad. There is a big difference between the type that are used by the breakdown authorities and are restricted speed wise and the proper braked versions that Car A tow & Towtal sell. I have towed my car many thousands of miles safely round europe and this country as have many hundreds of other owners, I started off with a trailer and quickly dismissed it and went the A frame route for shear convenience and simplicity & the fact that I dont have to worry about where the trailer is going to reside and how im going to securely lock it up every time I choose to stop somewhere for the night.
Smart cars can be towed on them as many owners have remarked on this forum in the past from personal experience. There will always be people who poo poo a brilliant idea like this and look for the slightest thing to bring it down. Anybody who is sitting on the fence worrying about going the A frame route, go for it. Its a truly brilliant idea, works a treat, and is perfectly safe and legal until proved differently.
The one thing you may have to buy to back it up is a reversing camera so that you can keep an eye on the car behind because they tow so well you can easily forget they are there.


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

Thieawin, you say "The definitive statement on A frames is that towing anything on them is illegal, in the UK or abroad ".
Can you explain where you get this definitive information?


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

NOT wanting to get into the debate of legalities I will just answer the question regarding "Can I tow a Smart car on an A Frame without damage"
If you take all the simple precautions before setting off everything will be fine. We towed our Smart Pulse for over 9000 miles onan A frame WITHOUT ANY problem whatsoever. 
The precautions are
Ensure the gearlever is in the neutral position. Check on dash display prior to removing key.
Attach A frame to tow ball and attach safety chain (if fitted) 
Plug in towing electrics to both Motorhome and Smart car.
Affix number plate to Smart car (same reg as Motorhome)
Affix trailer triangles to Smart (magnetic ones are best)
Remove handbrake
Remove ignition key
Lock car
Check all lights are operational.

Drive off in motorhome checking if there is any slight resistance over normal driving. IF there is check again car is in neutral and handbrake is off.
Follow these simple tips on you will NOT have any problems.
I met couple in France 3 weeks ago who also have a Motorhome and they are on Smart car number 2. The 1st Smart suffered engine and gearbox problems just after they drove out of their village and driving along the dual carriageway at 60mph when they noticed lots of blue and black smoke coming from the back of the car/van. They stopped to investigate and the Smart car was billowing smoke out and leaking oil everywhere. Upon further close investigation the guy found out that HE HAD LET THE CAR IN 1ST GEAR. Smart's do not like being towed at 60mph in 1 st gear.
This is the only way you can damage a Smart (or any other car) by towing when in gear or handbrake on or steering lock on (steering lock not applicable on a Smart)
Towtal WILL tell you also they only know of 2 other Smart cars with problems whilst being towed on an A frame. Both cars were left in reverse prior to towing. Ask Bill at Towtal.
BTW the couple I met had the car written off due to the extent of the damage. 2 pistons blown and gearbox destroyed. They immediately went out and purchased Smart number 2 and had the A Frame fittings transferred. He now double checks everything.


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## motoroamin (May 22, 2006)

Further to the post above, I can confrm having made enquiries that the instance I described in my earlier post was also due to the smart being left in gear.


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## 100734 (Aug 28, 2006)

javea03730 said:


> Could I advise Don't ever use an A frame in France or Spain - they do not like them!! Hope these comments will be helpful to you.


Dont want to start another is it legal or not but I keep seeing these warnings about dont tow in Spain Italy France etc. bit like the gassing issue every body knows somebody its happened to but nobody admits its happened to them.
I have towed mine through Spain France italy Switzland Belguim Holland and Portugal. Police only showed an interest once in France. wanted to take a photo of it and enquired were to get one himself for his own motor home

Dave


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

This is just the same interest we have generated everywhere we have gone with the A frame especially in Germany last year. How long before those Motorhomers are pushing their own governments to allow their use. Motorhoming is big business in Germany and hopefully they have a big voice. We drew quite an interested crowd at several campsites on the mosel and rhine whilst on our travels, with endless questions on how it works and loads of photos being taken.


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## richard863 (May 1, 2005)

*A frames*

Tony Hunt wrote " Use the rear view camera because you hardly know its there" 
This has just proved to be invaluable advise. On our trip last week through Wales we were towing the Citroen C2 on the A487 Haverfordwest to Aberystwyth. All went great until we hit Fishguard. What a experience. All maps show what appears to be Bypass there so we carried on. On approaching the town a big sign recomends nothing longer than 13 Metres. 
As we were under that lenght, not wanting to go back to Haverfordwest then up to Tenby, we carried on. This town has to have the narrowest roads, tightest turns, narrowest bridges and steepest hills I have ever come across. Once you have started down the hill into the town it just gets worse, on more than one occasion if I had the space I would have disconnected the car and got the wife to drive it, but we didn't have that option. I feel sure if I didn't have the rear view camera on I would never have got through without some damage. 
Perhaps I missed a sign outside Haverfordwest advising Don't use the A487 North of here.


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

I find it just reassures me when going through narrow gateways into campsites and the like. The car being very short always goes where the motorhome has just been, it has to. You just have to allow for the extra wheels to swing round which will obviously be slightly wider track than the motorhomes just needed.


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## Chascass (May 10, 2007)

I would have to agree about having a rear view camera, other wise you would spend your time checking if the Smart is still there, you feel nothing.
Last year we went to Fort William via Oban, coming back via Edinburgh towing my smart on a un braked A frame with no problems what so ever, great bit of kit.
I would be more concerned towing with a trailer because of the extra weight/height factor


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

I'm a barrister.

The regulations are very clear

Anyone using one is risking prosecution

The police may have better things to do but that does not make it legal.

If I am correct it invalidates your insurance, not only for the A frame and towed vehicle but also the towing vehicle.

The fitting of brakes ia another blind.

Proble is that with an A frame you have a trailer, the A frame and another trailer the car you are towing. They are not one unit.

Does any one think you can tow two trailers one behind the other.

Finally a braked trailers brakes must comply with an EU regulation, Car brakes don't comply. So even an A frame with breakaway ememrgency operation brakes fitted to the towed car don't comply.

It is not just me but also National Trailers and Towing association, the Vehicle inspectorate and the Police in their Towing booklet.

I suppose we could all be wrong, but do you want to argue it with your insurer, forget a prosecution, look at that risk.


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## Chascass (May 10, 2007)

Hi Thieawin.

1. From what I have read on forums such as this and others, it is anything but straightforward, as your last point hi light's concerning the A frame + car = 2 trailers being a factor ( first time I have heard this argument)

2. Be for I started towing with an A frame I checked with the insurers of the motor home (Saga) and of the towed car (Tesco) both have confirmed that I am still fully insured when towing with an A frame.


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

> If I am correct it invalidates your insurance, not only for the A frame and towed vehicle but also the towing vehicle.


NOT if you inform both insurance companies and gain their approval.


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## jaks (Sep 20, 2006)

*a/frame towing*

hi Gillian /John i have just come back from Carnac in sth Brittany i have a Bessacar e425 and i towed my wee car from Scotland to Brittany and back approx1400mls and it was absolutely brilliant we used it all the time to scoot about as my wife cannot walk very far and the wee smart was invaluable.Aswith everything just check that you follow the proper steps before you move/ it becomes second nature just like you do when you start to pack up your m/home to leave a site . I boobed a couple of times when i was away but hey if something doesnt feel right check and you will know right away and we all have to learn enjoy as i am sure you will .By the way i forgot to mention that was my first time abroad with my m/home and loved every minute of it .Jaks :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

thieawin said:


> I'm a barrister


We've all got problems - I'm a Policeman. 

I don't agree with you (well, I wouldn't, would I) regarding the definitive article on towing using an A-frame. 
This thread concurs with our research into the matter. I'll think you'll find the breakdown issue applies to dollies, not A-frames.

Dougie.


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## 98585 (Apr 9, 2006)

thieawin said:


> I'm a barrister.
> Proble is that with an A frame you have a trailer, the A frame and another trailer the car you are towing. They are not one unit.


This Kangaroo court now in session......

My learned Friend..

What was the light like when you saw this two trailer convoy?
Could you see it clearly?
How far away were you?
Would you recognise it again?

I put it to you sir that on the day in question what infact you actually saw was a single trailer, a braked trailer with 4 wheels, showing an identical registration number to the towing vehicle to which it was securely connected. Thats what you saw, isnt it? Thankyou, I rest my case


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## 97993 (Mar 5, 2006)

> We've all got problems - I'm a Policeman.


Love It
Im in the Motor trade and I would'nt agree with either of you :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Geo


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## 103605 (Mar 26, 2007)

I suppose it comes down to personal choice until a definitive law actuals excludes A frames, or someone is successfully prosecuted in the UK.

Smart manufacturers however, do not recommend the use of a frames to tow them and you will invalidate your warranty if you damage the Smart towing it on an a-frame, as per their standpoint on the issue. Doesn't mean you CAN'T though, or that there aren't 100s of "I've always towed my Smart on an A frame and its fine" stories out there, because there are. 

We weighed up the potential consequences (non-english speaking police with guns getting excited about it in Europe; damage to Smart etc etc)and decided a trailer would be better for us and far less likely to damage the Smart or cause unnecessary wear on it.

I heard something about an EU regulation shortly to come out making the A frame issue in law clearer - does anyone know if theres any truth in that?


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

thieawin said:


> I'm a barrister.
> 
> The regulations are very clear
> 
> ...


Good grief! I thought Barristers were supposed to get their facts right, please don't offer to get me off a murder charge!

I'm an engineer!

A-frames are perfectly legal in this (until proved different under our non-Napoleanic system) country AS LONG AS the road COMBINATION replicates and complies with trailer braking and lighting regulations. Some properly engineered and permanent modifications to the car (NOT temporary dollies used by the motor trade) and COMBINATIONS, CAN be as legal as any other caravan/trailer set up, others not so e.g. unbraked a-frames pulling ANY car (if a trailer has brakes they must be operable irrespective of its gross weight; all cars have brakes).

You would expect a vested interest organisation like the NTTA to be disingenuous.

Regards,

Noel.


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## 98585 (Apr 9, 2006)

Noel said:


> please don't offer to get me off a murder charge! Noel.


On Bail Noel?


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

jimjam said:


> Noel said:
> 
> 
> > please don't offer to get me off a murder charge! Noel.
> ...


No, I'm using the (cushy) prison internet cafe (in for throttling a "gentleman" of the legal profession)!


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## Maverick (May 9, 2005)

Not interested in the I know better than you arguments.

Just here to give you my personal experience.

Towed our first Smart on a trailer all over the place including much of Europe. This was great, but space somewhat tight at home having to store Motorhome, Smart, Trailer and another car. The width of the trailer (slightly narrower than the 'van) was a bit of a problem over the 500yds from Home to main road due to local parking. Loading would take about 15 minutes in the confined space of home mainly due to repositioning everything. On a site with space (and nice weather) about 8 minutes.

Advantages. (Apart from all the obvious already stated). The car sits slightly higher off the road and stays a bit cleaner (not much) in poor weather. I could reverse it anywhere with a little practice. In 2 years and 12,000 miles of towing I only HAD to reverse once.

Disadvantages. Space, cost (of trailer and additional trailer insurance), and hassle factor at home. Worry of someone nicking your tie down straps whilst stopped.

Problems. Technically None. In Switzerland had to have vignette for 'van, trailer and car in order to use car independently on motorways.

So changed Smart to a Convertible 18 months ago. Had A-frame fitted by Chris Cox in Birmingham (outstanding service) and have towed it at least 8,000 miles so far. The A frame is braked (as was the trailer) and i've done a few very unscientific mild brake tests at the firms test track with no notable differences. Towed without getting stopped by any Police or similar throughout UK, Spain, France, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Luxembourg, Belguim, Holland and Denmark.

Advantages. More space at home. 'Loading time' 2 minutes and that is taking it slow indeed. This has got to the point where we sometimes take the car with us on even the shortest weekend away as it really is so easy.

Disadvantages. It does sit a bit lower so the Smart collects a little more dirt but the is negligible. A mate had a 'skirt' fitted at the back of his 'van to protect the car but this occasionally acted as a road sweeper. Going over speed humps designed to make it easier for Fire Engines/Ambulances. The 'van go's over easy but you must remember the car has a narrower track, so take it easy. (The trailer was fine). I've always had a camera so I know whats going on. It is easy to forget anything behind you, so no change. Reversing is ill advised, never tried and never had to.

Problems. None. Incidentally, to the guy who had a flat battery. Unlike most 'automatics' you can push/bump start a smart, so why didn't you? (read the manual it's a piece of cake, again mate did it just to try it and it works.)

My advice whether you have a trailer or A-Frame. Have a checklist and use it everytime.  

Don't bother to post if you are going to tell me I'm wrong this is just my personal expierience of our trips/adventures. When I get stopped/prosecuted or go to court I'll let you know..... 8O


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## 98585 (Apr 9, 2006)

Maverick said:


> Not interested in the I know better than you arguments. Just here to give you my personal experience.


Thanks for that Mav, nothing beats the voice of experience, cheers.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

As usual and after a couple of large whiskies i am confused.
As a former caravanner i remember that the body of my caravan was towed by an A frame. So whats the difference to towing a car with one.

Dave P


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## 99043 (May 4, 2006)

Thank you to all those who have offered advice based on experience. I tried to make my question quite specific in order to avoid the "can't do that" responses - I'd done it, I just needed specific advice. 
I've tried towing now, and you truly can't tell it's there! I don't need a reversing camera, I have a rear window and the roof of the smart can be seen. Had this not been the case, I probably would have gone down the route of a reversing camera... but that would have been more as a security blanket I think! (my Father managed for many a year driving an articulated lorry without one ;-) ) 
We're off to South Devon next week, so that will be the real test of my ability  I know about the narrow roads (it's a re-visit) and now we check out the time of the local bus and follow that - it doesn't reverse for anyone 8O 
Thanks again people. 
Gillian


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