# Clicker Training



## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Those interested in clicker training their dog might like to check out this website.
I signed up to the free trial and it is very good. They send you a lesson by email every so often so that you don't rush ahead too fast. Haven't had any spam so far. 
Now thinking of sending off for the book. Although I know how to clicker train I am a bit lazy (make that a lot) :roll: I need a kick up the backside and spending money on a book might just do it!

Gypsy is going to have steroid injected into her shoulder joint and will need 4-5 weeks complete rest afterwards aaaarrrrggghh. 

Any tips on passive tricks to teach a lurcher, who has no interest in anything other than running as fast as possible, gratefully received 8O


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

Can you put the link up as Im always interested in how to train my nervous dog.
3 years now and a lot of help he has done so well but if anyone talks to him or comes to close sends him into a panic until he really gets to know that person. (a recue dog of coarse )
If I take him for a walk with that person by my side then he calms down.
He has been such a good dog at Brean holiday and has passed loads of dogs but if one comes face to face all hell is let loose.
I have a clicker somewhere in a pocket I will dig it out again


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

You might have got the calm assertive bit yourself now, Mavis, but in those challenge situations you need to REMAIN calm but simultaneously watch Louis like a hawk and just give a quick jerk on his lead the split second he "primes" himself in order to get his concentration back on the boss from the other dog.

Dave


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

DABurleigh said:


> You might have got the calm assertive bit yourself now, Mavis, but in those challenge situations you need to REMAIN calm but simultaneously watch Louis like a hawk and just give a quick jerk on his lead the split second he "primes" himself in order to get his concentration back on the boss from the other dog.
> 
> Dave


Its that part which is the hardest thing as yesterday we came face to face with a lady with 2 dogs in an alley way and he is uncontrolable.
In the end I had to pick him up and clamp his jaw--I know its wrong but thats the only way I could stop him and let the lady pass.
I dont want to have to put a muzzle on but Im beginnng to think its the only way.
When he is off lead with a big dog he is calmed down by the larger dog and then has a lovely play but a little one he dominates and bites their fur so the owners panic and think he is aggressive. (You have heard him his bark is so aggresive)
In the 3 years we have had him he hasnt bitten anyone or another dog.
He is an adorable dog really but he has to get to know you.
I wondered if a rolled up newspaper should be used. :roll:


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

locovan said:


> DABurleigh said:
> 
> 
> > You might have got the calm assertive bit yourself now, Mavis, but in those challenge situations you need to REMAIN calm but simultaneously watch Louis like a hawk and just give a quick jerk on his lead the split second he "primes" himself in order to get his concentration back on the boss from the other dog.
> ...


DON'T use a rolled up paper!!

You may have met Bryn Dog at Brean, he has or had similar problems to your dog.

The most important thing and most difficult thing is to remain calm yourself. I am convinced that dogs can sense our moods, calm, anxious, frightened etc and react accordingly.

Like most dogs Bryn is better off-lead which, I think, is due to the fact he can find his own space and distance from another dog.

He is better than he used to be but far from perfect. Apologies to Ann and Dave


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## Rainbow-Chasers (Sep 2, 2008)

Does sound like your tension/apprehension is fuelling him. If he is nervous, a clicker won't do anything. A clicker is just a sound that they learn to associate with a treat.

He is walking along fine with a strange person because he is focused on walking as a pack, which is good! You just need to keep him distracted. Stop walking, get his attention and just say no! Make sure he keeps his focus on you until the other dog passes - it may take a few goes but repetition is what it's all about.

To give you an example, our was terrified of bin lorries. He would turn and scarper - so I used those techniques, by tugging him back and making him focus on me, as a tool to get him used to the noise. Once he was used to the background noise, then he was fine.

With other dogs, it is more likely fear of attack, so they get aggressive first. Use the distraction technique to distract him from other dogs. It may well be worth going to a rescue home sponsored walk - total overkill!!

He will have that many dogs around, that he will settle eventually. But every time he steps out of line, you must correct him. Quick tug, get his attention. If you give commands, stick to one word for one command. He doesn't understand english! You see so many owners going into a full rant, lol! No need!

And never use anything as a weapon - the dog will never listen or respect you again, and the nervous disposition will get worse, and he will get more aggressive. So forget the paper!


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

Whoops sorry about the newspaper idea --Ok I will keep trying as he has come such a long way since Hamble thanks to you two dog experts. :wink: 
right todays a new day :lol: 
Pat sorry for hogging your topic but Louis is my pet subject and I will do anything to keep helping him.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Well, having seen Mavis with Louis, I reckon she has CALM cracked. It's the ASSERTIVE bit she has to master. TIMING and SPEED is everything to recover the dog's attention on the pack leader, which means ANTICIPATION, yet without conveying that anticipation to the dog! Understandably, it takes focussed practice.

Dave


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Dogs , are best trained with love , kindness and reward.
Our five are all diferent temperaments and get on fine. Four shelties and a rough collie. Two of the shelties are 3years old and are rescue dogs.
Alfie will chase anything that moves whilest Charlie just wants to help.
Ruby the collie is nervouse of bangs particularly fireworks, after a gas cylinder depot near us blew up a few years ago.

I would not sugest using a rolled up newspaper or stick for that matter.
If you carry one and tap the dog with it the dog will soon start to be aggresive towards anyone carryig a stick or newspaper

I would sugest using a clicker /tug on the lead with a voice command to get his attetion followed by a small treat.

Unfortunatley you probably do not know what has lead to this behaviour, and that is why he was a rescue dog. He is probably in his mind only trying to defend you.

Best of luck

Dave p


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## steco1958 (Mar 5, 2009)

Totally agree with Dave p on this subject, kindness and treats work wonders, we have a boxer (bitch), if you know anything about dogs, you know these are crazy and untrainable, totally wrong, it just needs love attention and time.

There is no such thing as a bad dog only bad owners.


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> Dogs , are best trained with love , kindness and reward.
> Our five are all diferent temperaments and get on fine. Four shelties and a rough collie. Two of the shelties are 3years old and are rescue dogs.
> Alfie will chase anything that moves whilest Charlie just wants to help.
> Ruby the collie is nervouse of bangs particularly fireworks, after a gas cylinder depot near us blew up a few years ago.
> ...


I do know his history as he was badly treated by the owners partner and their teenage children.
He has no teeth in the middle (hence everything he tries to eat falls out.
He has a misshapen mouth and a damaged leg fom mistreatment.
he never had a collar or lead on in his life (if you was to see the splendid way he walks by my side you wouldnt believe that)
He wouldnt eat when I first had him only unles it was thrown on the ground and would never drink water from a bowl only puddles and water butts.
But as Ceaser says you have to forget the past and start from now.
I have gained his love :wink: I just need his attention at all times.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

This poor dog has gone from a rags to riches living and is totaly confused.

Keep at it Mavis you will win.

Oh and patp don`t forget lurchers are lazy until it comes to hunting then its all systems go.


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

Clicker training is good for some people but it's just a trend and I am sure it will disappear when another fad comes along; all you are really doing is training with food rewards which is ok if you keep an eye on your dog’s weight.
I would never condone hitting a dog with anything and this could get you in further trouble when the dog fights back.
By far the best way (in my opinion) is the tried and tested way of praise when the dog does something right and chastisement when it does something wrong.
Unfortunately there is no quick fix in dog training and things take time and lots of it usually.
I know people who have spent thousands on trainers and psychologists and even pills for their dog and have got no further on than when they started. There is no governing body for dog trainers, listener’s, whisperer’s or physiologists and all most of them have ever done is a distance learning course or a seminar so be careful who you go to for advice.
I have been training and handling dogs for nearly 20 years and if you lived a bit nearer to me I would be happy to give you a hand with your dog,
My first bit of advice is to get yourself a correctly sized check chain with large oval links; you can never control a dog on a soft lead or collar.
Enlist some friends with dogs who don't usually meet your dog and plan a walk where you will meet them one at a time. Maybe just one on the first session then build it up to many.
Then plenty of purpose in your stride, dog on your left, lead in your right. Verbal praise and a tickle behind the ear with your left hand when you meet the dog walking the other way and be confident. Once you have passed without a problem get down on your knees and praise like mad. If you can't keep his attention and he tries to go for the other dog then a sharp check on the lead and a very firm NO.
I guarantee this will work with plenty of determination from you and help from your friends.
I personally don't use food rewards because of the type of dogs I train, find a toy that you can interact with your dog with and make him mad for it. This should be all the reward you will ever need alongside your praise.
I am sorry if this is a bit of a ramble, writing is not my best subject but I can train dogs so please feel free to ask for any help.
James


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## loddy (Feb 12, 2007)

I used a clicker for a short while but realised I could summon all the dogs in the area with just one click,

I find a kick up the ass works well

Loddy


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

JP said:


> Clicker training is good for some people but it's just a trend and I am sure it will disappear when another fad comes along; all you are really doing is training with food rewards which is ok if you keep an eye on your dog's weight.
> I would never condone hitting a dog with anything and this could get you in further trouble when the dog fights back.
> By far the best way (in my opinion) is the tried and tested way of praise when the dog does something right and chastisement when it does something wrong.
> Unfortunately there is no quick fix in dog training and things take time and lots of it usually.
> ...


James you say---My first bit of advice is to get yourself a correctly sized check chain with large oval links; you can never control a dog on a soft lead or collar.

i have Louis on a harness which makes it dificult to stop him as i havent control over his head .
But he chokes all the time on a collar lead,
The harness means he will walk very good by me.

The other thing you say is-- walk on the left-- now Louis always walks on the right of me so I will try that tomorrow.


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

The only problem with a harness that goes around the chest or body is that this is the strongest part of the dog, if you look at a dog pulling a sled etc this is what they wear. 
Therefore he has more power to pull you around.
With a check chain it will be loose when walking and will not choke. If the dog is pulling or needs checking and the lead is already tight it is no good pulling as this will choke the dog and you end up in a battle of who can pull hardest. 
You must first thrust your left hand forward to producce some slack then quickly check it backwards creating a zip noise with the chain while at the same time giving the command "NO" or "Heal". 
This command must come at exactly the same time as the check then the dog will believe the check comes from your voice.
James


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Mavis

Just one more suggestion to add to the list, but a very easy one to try - and it works with Grace.  

Carry a small but loud squeaky toy and use it to distract Louis whenever the need arises, like approaching dogs or strangers.

That should distract him enough, especially if you tease him with it for a few moments until the dogs/strangers have passed, then let him play with it for a few seconds and give him lots of praise.

Before long you will only need to squeak and he will be so busy looking for the toy and anticipating a quick game that he will not bother with the approaching "threats".

It works with Grace as I say, and may well work with Louis - assuming he likes squeaky toys of course. :? Even if he doesn't it will probably distract him enough to help the situation, and give you the opportunity to praise him for "minding his own business". :wink: 

Hope this helps

Dave


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

He loves squeaky toys so yes I will have a go Zeb.
Thanks 
He is a nervous dog he doesnt like the dark --one night I came out and all the vans at Brean were in darkness --no lightning on the site really and the wind was howling.
He would not have a Wee, we walked round and round first Ray did then I did but if he walks very close you know he isnt going to do it.
He cant stand the wind blowing his tail and all that hair.
Then there must have been rabbits and he lunged forward Goodness I thought I would wake you up as he pulled my arm and I told him off.
In the daylight he was off the lead and happy playing football.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Mavis

I'm inclined to agree with JP about clickers.

I think clicker training is great for some people and some dogs, but the problem is you have to train the dog to the clicker *before *it's of any practical use at all. 8O 8O

You won't need to train Louis to a squeaky toy. He has already trained himself . . . within about ten seconds of being given his first one!! :wink: 

The cynic in me wonders if clickers have been promoted so strongly simply so a kids' toy can now be sold for two or three quid instead of a few pence!! 8O 8O

Good luck with Louis - he's a lovely dog and worth the effort, same as Gracie is. 

Dave


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Clickers whistles and squeekers are all a means of getting the dogs attention, just like your voice.
Our dogs have their own side to walk on.

A harness is used on two a normal collar on two but a choke chain is needed for Alfie.
Like people dogs are all different

Dave p


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## greygit (Apr 15, 2007)

Hi
I’ve read all the suggestions on here with interest as we have a rescued bull lurcher and he is not good with other dogs when on a lead, actually he’s not always good when off either but we do keep a muzzle on him in case.
We have tried the majority of the suggestions on this post apart from the squeaky toy one so off to the pet shop tomorrow........fingers crossed.
Gary


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

greygit said:


> Hi
> I've read all the suggestions on here with interest as we have a rescued bull lurcher and he is not good with other dogs when on a lead, actually he's not always good when off either but we do keep a muzzle on him in case.
> We have tried the majority of the suggestions on this post apart from the squeaky toy one so off to the pet shop tomorrow........fingers crossed.
> Gary


I think the trouble is we dont keep at it so we must always take that squeeky toy out with us I think I will attach it to his lead like I do his Westham wallet that I keep his doggy bags in. :roll:


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

locovan said:


> . . . we must always take that squeeky toy out with us I think I will attach it to his lead like I do his Westham wallet that I keep his doggy bags in. :roll:


Hi Mavis

This may not work so well for you   but I put a little squeaky toy in the pocket of my shirt, then I only have to pat my left errrrrrr (_you know what_  ) to get a squeak. :roll:

It's a good idea to do something similar, then you don't have to fumble for it when you need instant distraction . . . you just pat your pocket and squeak!! :wink: 

Dave


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

I could pat my left errrr to go left and my right errrr to go right :lol: :lol: 
I will see what I can buy tomorrow that will work.
I have just had him on his collar for a walk but he isnt used to that so he kept choking --I have had him on his harness for 3 years now.
All will take time again. :roll:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Mavis - sorry I have been away! I am shaking with rage at some of the suggestions on here! Do not use a "choke" chain on your dog he has had enough cruelty in his life. Do not yank on his lead. I am sure all your instincts tell you that this is wrong.

Those that advocated kindness had it right.

I am a qualified Pet Behaviour Therapist and did a year's course after having worked with dogs all my life (ssshhhh 30 years). One of the entry requirements of the course was that you had worked with dogs and not just had an interest. I hold the Diploma in Companion Animal Behaviour Therapy (Dip CABT) issued by COAPE the leading organisation alongside APBC in the country. Do not use anyone from any other organisation.

To my shame I have tried all of those methods outlined above and I would *never* use them again.

The reason I tried  to put the link up to the Canis clicker training progamme is that it teaches the owner how to use the clicker. The dog has to be "primed" with it first. This means clicking and treating for "nothing" until the dog understands that click ALWAYS means a treat is coming. You then can train using the click to give a signal that the dog has just done something right and a treat or toy is on its way!

Timing is everything and if someone tells you it doesn't work it is because their timing was out. All the dogs trained for tv work etc are trained using this method. Some people use it, wrongly, to get the dog's attention or to call it. The click is like a tick on an exercise book it means "Yes!" you got it right. You can also use your voice if you can make it positive enough and not a boring (to the dog) "good boy".

What you are trying to achieve with the use of the clicker is the lift in the dog's emotional state that means the dog would like to repeat the behaviour to experience the feeling again. They almost become addicted to that fantastic feeling and want to work for a click almost as if they need a fix :lol:

Mavis your dog is not behaving badly. He is behaving fearfully. Yes he needs to gain confidence from you and lead tugging can have the opposite effect. The dog reads it as "that dog coming along is dangerous you need to come away from it". I once worked with a dog that lunged aggressively at every dog and person that came along. It was a rescue but was fine when it left the rescue centre. To cut a long story short the owner had made the dog aggressive by pulling it away from other dogs and people!

Headcollars are a good, kind, way to gain more control and some dogs find them soothing. they need to be introduced slowly but they can be very effective.

Better still would be a consultation with a member of COAPE or APBC :lol: Only get in touch with them, though, if you are in it for the long haul. There is no quick fix for behaviour problems I am afraid. I was glad to see a good behaviourist on the One Show the other night.

What area do you live in Mavis?


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

I live in Seasalter ---Mavis your dog is not behaving badly. He is behaving fearfully---- that sums up Louis.

I have worked with him for three years now and everyone at Brean can tell you I have come along way since Hamble --he didnt bark once at any dog because I have found the gap that he feels good with.
If a dog is across the road I can get his attention but if they were to come accross the road he would go mad at them.
He is very protective of me when he lays by my feet (Lady J would not listen when I said dont give a treat and still tried ) well Louis became agressive and warned her off.
He still never bites it really is a warning.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

There is a COAPE therapist in Kent but she hasn't put her details on the website yet. I will make some enquiries for you and let you know. The best man in the world, Prof. Peter Neville practices in the South of England but he might not be available as he lectures all over the world. Sarah Whitehead is in the Windsor area and specialises in aggression but again she would be very hard to pin down I would have thought.

If you decide to go down the therapist route you will need a vet referal as no behaviourist should give advice without the dog having been checked over for any physical problems.

I am also sending you a pm.

Pat


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## LisaB (Apr 24, 2009)

Try Jan Fennel or David Appleby they are both experts in the doggie field Jan works with the RSPCA :wink:


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## LisaB (Apr 24, 2009)

Also when Boris my schnauzer kept running away (despite clicker training I may add!) I bought a Master Collar that puffs air under the dogs chin and resumes concentration on the owner commands, not too sure how this would work for nervous dogs. Cured Boris though. :idea: :wink:


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## Rainbow-Chasers (Sep 2, 2008)

I am not starting a row or anything here pat, but you say a head collar is good and you are qualified??

With your experience, you should know how utterly shocking comment that is!


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

As with any type of training different methods suit different people / animals and a good trainer should not dismiss anything to try and get the end result they desire. 
What I will say is that a check chain (not choke chain) is not cruel, some people who use them can be cruel just as a soft rope lead, harness or head collar can be used by a cruel person to inflict pain and suffering on a dog.
The easy way to train a dog is very often for food treats but unfortunately my line of work rules out this method.
Like Jan Fennel I also work with the RSPCA and also Guide Dogs for the Blind. I know Jan and the way her dogs are kept and the person who actually look after them. All I will say is she makes lots and lots of money, if you attened one of her training courses, if you are really lucky she may even ask you to return for a more advanced course ( for another fee  )
Find a way of training that suits you and your dog and stick with it, it may take some time.
Good luck
James


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Rainbow chaser I said a headcollar not a shock collar. 

There are a couple on the market. Halti and Gentle Leader are two. Very similar to a horse's headcollar. As I said earlier they can be calming and it is thought that this is due to puppies having a relax reflex when their head is cradled by their mother when she moves them from the nest. Some dogs are calmed immediately but it does not work on all dogs. Even if the dog is not calmed it is under more control as the head is turned towards the handler and they cannot pull so hard. One word of warning - use another lead attached to a harness or leather collar as some dogs do manage to get the headcollar off 8O 

If you still think there is something wrong with using one of these then do please enlighten us. :? 

LisaB - I wouldn't advocate the use of these aversive collars. Much better to find out why Boris runs off and deal with that  
David Appleby is a member of the APBC which, as mentioned above, is excellent. Not sure that Jan Fennel is affiliated to either of the two organisations. She came up through the "dog whisperer" route and was at one time still believing the old "dominance" rubbish :roll: I stand to be corrected if she has left that behind and gained admittance to COAPE or the APBC :lol:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

The easy way to train a dog is very often for food treats but unfortunately my line of work rules out this method. 

:?:


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

It does seem a good product.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

They are brilliant. 
Gentle Leader - invented and sold by Prof Peter Neville. 
The Halti was invented and is sold by Roger Mugford of Compay of Animals fame. 

Both British to the core  

Pat


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Mavis

Do I remember you saying that a Halti kept falling off Louis' nose because it is so short?? (_The sniffer - not the Halti! :lol: _)

If so, the Gentle Leader would be no better - possibly a bit worse as it has less support at the sides of the face.

A Canny Collar might be OK, but it works on a different principle, and does not allow you to turn the dog's head away from "trouble". It does reduce the pulling a bit, but is nowhere near as good (IMHO) for controlling an errant pooch as either of the other two.

*Patp *said, "_One word of warning - use another lead attached to a harness or leather collar as some dogs do manage to get the headcollar off."_ Sound advice as usual, but Pat may not be aware that Halti collars now come with a free safety strap. Just a little short strap with a dog lead clip on the end so the Halti can be attached to the dog's own collar - just in case it slips the Halti. :?

If the Halti is fitted properly, with the collar part high on the neck (just behind the ears) it is unlikely to come off, and will also be far more comfortable for the dog.

Hope this helps

Dave


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## LisaB (Apr 24, 2009)

I used David Appleby with my Collie about 15 years ago, his visit did work, although I am afraid I didnt really take to him for whatever reason? I have never used Jan Fennel - just been told about her, bought one of her books and Boris chewed it up as a pup! Shows what he thought! Used a Halti on my old collie it worked well, BUT the "well meaning general public" do mis construe it as a muzzle and would avoid her! She wasnt agressive just pulled!

As for not using the Master collar, it was indeed Boris' saviour, he would have been undoubtedly killed or stolen or lost forever, it wasnt a shock collar just air puffed out and we no longer use it and we only used it for a couple of weeks, with the only lasting effect being no more vanishing. I did know the cause, we live on a smallholding backing onto open countryside and very little fencing, he needed castrating (now done) and could obviously smell any female canine including vixens up to 3 miles away! All sorted now. I we are all different and so are the dogs, different things suit different problems and suituations, I would never advocate cruelty. :roll:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I agree about the muzzle effect Lisa. Such a shame. I did contact them once to ask them to make them in bright jazzy colours but they didn't take a blind bit of notice :roll: 

Has anyone tried the free trial on the Canis Clicker thingy? Sorry I cannot put a link in as I am absolutely useless :roll: I just googled it and up came the offer of a free trial. It really was free. All they do is advertise their book and cd a little bit. No pressure. 

Whoever said Clicker Training was a new fad is very mistaken. It has been going on for years behind the scenes. Most of the charities like Guide Dogs and Assistance Dogs use it as their main tool in training complex behaviours. It is not for everyone. I have to say I only use it when the old methods of lure and treat fail. But then I am an old fuddy duddy :lol:


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## Rainbow-Chasers (Sep 2, 2008)

The principal restriction induced is of the upper neck, in particular the occipito-atlantal joints. This region is very highly innervated with proprioceptors which control our coordination, and dysfunction of this region of the spine is recognised by veterinary chiropractors as having major deleterious effects on the health of the dogs as a whole. 

If one observes dogs, even ones that have been well trained to head collar use, being led with head collars it can be seen in the majority of cases that the dog leans a little on the headcollar, causing bending of the upper neck. This leaning appears to be the source of the upper neck mobility restriction found on vertebral motion palpation. From a chiropractic point of view this restriction over the long term can lead to major health and musculo-skeletal problems.


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

Louis always got out of a Halti when I first had him. I have just bought the Control head Collar from Pets at Home.
We have bought Chappie for his tea tonight. 
We have bought the Head Collar which he doesnt like so I put it on and attached it to his collar and still keeping him on a harness. 
(I heard a neighbour say "about time she got him under control" --i have just struck her of my Xmas card list. :evil: )
He dragged his heels and wouldnt walk but I Persevered with him and he trotted around his beach walk with me. No Pulling just a very sad look with the band across his nose.
Now he meet a Jack but he looked so ashamed with himself that he just made a noise but kept walking then at the same time he met a Spanial so I walked around that one --no fuss was made. 
We got to our road leading to the alley and he met another jack on the other side of the road so I held the head collar tight and said --no---no and we had peace --he then walked up the alley peaceful and came on in doors where I took everything off and gave a treat for "good boy good boy". 
That was day one. 
Tonights walk around our park when he meets nothing I will give him a full rein and we can play. 
Now to sort out his diet and see how he eats this Chappie warmed.
PS I have found the clicker so I will have fun in doors with that first. Not to much on one day eh!
PPS do you mean this http://www.canisclickertraining.com/newsletter/


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## Rainbow-Chasers (Sep 2, 2008)

If you are going to use one, take it steady and make sure he never lunges, or tries to get away or he will be seriously injured. I know everyone I used to deal with in the dog world, trainers and vets thought they should be banned - not because they are terrible, just because their use is very restricted and people use them incorrectly - and even when correctly used, there are risks if a situation occurs - it doesn't have to be YOUR dog. One loose aggresive dog attack is all it takes!

I will leave you will the words of an owner from a dog forum who has experience much as yourself. It isn't uncommon.

''Halti's can be lethal if used incorrectly

They can be dangerous even IF used correctly.

Sadly there is no proper warning or decent advice on the packaging, therefore a lot of people use these incorrectly.

Always double leads, always on SHORT leads so make sure there is no lunging 

My Jake, XLL Rott, had one since before we rehomed him. He collapsed at 18 months, needed mergency surgery as his discs in his neck had disintegrated. The orthopedic squarely blamed the halti. It took a long time before he could walk again

He told me he sees far too many dogs with neck injuries and neck damage due to the use of these

Jake never regained full control over his legs, his spinal cord was soo squashed, it was due to the vet and quick decisions that he didnt sever the cord

I send him to the Bridge last Feb as he collapsed again, same cause, this time a lot worse, as within an hour he couldnt even lift his head. He was 8 years old, and I made the decision ot let him go... it was enough and the vet didnt have any more hope for a successfull op''


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

RainbowChaser

I am so sorry to hear of your experience with the Halti. Must have been awful for you.

I take on board what you are saying but must temper it with the fact that any kind of restraint on a huge lunging dog is going to cause some damage 8O 

As horses have been restrained in this way for centuries we must conclude that it is relatively safe. Note however that they usually put a ring in the nose of bull! 

Common sense is everything. A horse is brought up to be handled (hopefully) and so would not fight the headcollar to the same extent that say a bull would. The vast majority of dogs would be the same. I think that if a dog had damage to the neck from a headcollar then it would have had damage to a different part of the neck from a neck collar.

I notice that the Dogs Trust were sending all their dogs out fitted with harnesses. I have never had so many dogs pulling their owners around. A lot of these owners then fitted choke chains! We then had to persuade them otherwise. I think that policy has been reviewed now.

The Association of Pet Dog Trainers - motto "Kind, Fair and Effective" advocate the use of ordinary neck collars or headcollars after extensive research into the safety issues.

I was persuaded to use one years ago when we took on a hooligan of a GSD from rescue. He towed my 10 stone husband down the bridle path as though he was water skiing 8O 
We fitted a headcollar and lo and behold my six stone daughter could hold him with one hand. Of course he learned better manners eventually but it all took time and the headcollar was a godsend in the meantime.

You pays your money and takes your choice :lol:


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## Rainbow-Chasers (Sep 2, 2008)

That wasn't my experience pat! That was one of thousands of owners who have had injured dogs through Haltis!

Don't get me wrong - haltis are good for show dogs, who are well trained and react to nothing! That is what they originally were used for and where they should stay.

Dogs will be subdued when using them, firstly they cannot see where they are going which is both unnatural works against any training you may wish to excercise as the dog cannot learn to follow you,and secondly the pressure on the vertebrae and the spinal cord - which has endings looking much like tenticles that come through each vertbrae and spread round the body - these nerves get squashed with the twisting and deformation of the vertebrae and cause intense pain, and spinal migraines.

If you dog doesn't react, then he will be fine as long as there is never any pressure put on them - if he does then he will have major and permanent problems. This is why I dislike the idea that they are sold for use with dogs that pull - for this is the EXACT cause of the spine problems with Haltis.

Much is taken from the horse world for use with dogs - I have dealt with them all! The difference with a horse is, their necks are extremely strong - and the weight of a human pulling is minimal - if they wished a horse has the strength to throw you about, headcollar or not! With a horse, you have far more control holding the headcollar with your arm held along side the horses neck. If he spins or turns, the the elbow goes into the neck - this is the same as touching a dogs neck to distract them and has the same effect! It is the distraction that works!

Dogs have much weaker necks, and this is what causes the damage. Couple this with the weight ratio of animal to human and this is where the problem lay. Much is admittedly through lack of training in proper use, but still, they should never be used permanently or a replacement for a collar - just as a choke chain should never be a replacement. Only a temporary tool.

When we first had Lorcan, we were told that he would NEVER be able to have a collar - and were supplied with a harness. I put a collar on him, to see the results and he pulled until he choked and vomited.

I put him on an adapted choke chain (limited with a bolt!)lol! This purpose was for him to hear a sound as a warning, until he was used to my verbal noises. He had three 2 minute sessions - by the third, the lead was loose and he was walking by my feet, without any desire to pull.

He now wears a collar - in this case the chain was used as a tool for short term training (6 minutes over 3 days) This is how they should be used, not as a collar replacement, and never used in anger, or tugged on. It is the noise that is useful, not the restriction. If someone wishes to use one of these, restrict is with a bolt such as a plastic number plate bolt to prevent restriction.

As you said, everyone makes their choice - but for the dogs sake, everyone please research carefully, use these tools temporarily, and learn to use them properly! You will only have a more inbalanced dog if you don't!


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## LisaB (Apr 24, 2009)

As I said earlier we are all different - the dogs are all different - the cause and effect and treatment are all different, there are lots of products available, I think research and a chat to your vet - local dog club etc is worth it. :wink:


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