# depositgate controversy caravan club



## clodhopper2006 (Aug 13, 2006)

Simple question. What's the consensus. Lets have a straw poll.

Bob


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## Broom (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi All

I am a no, prefer to plan ahead, book and turn up.

Best Regards
Broom


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*CC*

Yes - it would help to erradicate the "no shows".

Russell

Just turn up - I would love to try that at Rowntree Park.


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## Mat7 (May 15, 2005)

I would like to see no deposit but stiff penalties for not cancelling - on 2nd no show - like cancelling all bookings for that person for the year so they have to re-book if they booked every weekend at a site and make no-showers pay in full at booking for the next year.

I'm sure its to difficult to impliment though!

cheers Matt :roll: 8O :roll:


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

Its a big YES from me

All we want to do is be able to book a site 2 to 6 weeks in advance and get to go where we want. 

At the moment you need to plan upto 12months in advance for popular sites in school holls.



We have manages to book 2 trips to Rowentree park for this year again though, but these were booked on day 1 of them opening the bookings for the year.


Richard...


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## 117332 (Oct 10, 2008)

Yes, I have booked up dozens of weekends from March onwards without paying a single penny, and to top it off I could cancel at the drop of a hat with a couple of days notice, the current system is a joke. So yes take a deposit or even a full payment. Im sure this would help stop the block bookings, just incase people want to go away.

Tom


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

Question

Should the deposit be returnable if you cancel your booking more than say 21 days before the booked date
OR 14 days OR..............

OR should it be a non-returnable deposit whatever the circumstances?


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## citroennut (May 16, 2005)

definately non returnable, you're not going to worry about a tenner even in the event of a death.


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## 109659 (Feb 2, 2008)

Hi 
some 2 months ago I was away on a CC site when I heard that my ancient mother was ill. I had to cut short my stay but was surprised that I was given a refund for the days I could not stay. Th CC behaved like a gentle persons club!

Don


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

How much of an advantage is having a deposit if it is refundable?

I think a none refundable deposite would solve the no show problem overnight.

Richard...


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## clodhopper2006 (Aug 13, 2006)

I'd be interested if those who are saying no to deposits could tell me what it is about the current situation they believe is good.

Cheers,

Bob


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## tviall (May 1, 2005)

It's a yes from me. The CC&C club have a policy of non refundable deposits and I have no problem with it. OK, occasionally for reaons beyond my control I may not make my booking but these will be regretable and if I say that I will be there, I will be there.

It'll stop these people who say " We're not sure if we are going yet, it depends on the weather etc, but if I book at least we can get in if we do decide to go"!


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

RichardnGill said:


> How much of an advantage is having a deposit if it is refundable?
> 
> I think a none refundable deposite would solve the no show problem overnight.
> 
> Richard...


Surely, the point made so forcefully was that places are not available to members who are not able to book far ahead because every date was already booked.

A refundable deposit is an incentive to advise the site when a member is not able to attend and thus free up a pitch.
A non-returnable deposit is no incentive to cancel as you lose your deposit whether you give notice of non-attendance or not. So empty pitches not free to be booked.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

tviall said:


> . The CC&C club have a policy of non refundable deposits


From our experience of the C&CC, if you have to cancel, they will hold your deposit against a future booking.

I'd back this policy. We have had to cancel twice because of serious illness, ours in one case and parents in another. If we had not phoned as soon as we knew we could not go or if we had not turned up without explanation, then the deposit should have been non-refundable.

Anyone who makes a habit of not showing up for booked sites should have their membership terminated or not be allowed to book more than one stay in advance.

G


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## clodhopper2006 (Aug 13, 2006)

The CC say they will revoke membership to those who abuse the system but so far as I know this has never happened even to the worst offenders.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

clodhopper2006 said:


> Simple question. What's the consensus. Lets have a straw poll.


Do you mean a *non-returnable* deposit, either under any circumstances or perhaps after, say, 7 days before the booking date?

Dougie.


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## clodhopper2006 (Aug 13, 2006)

asprn said:


> clodhopper2006 said:
> 
> 
> > Simple question. What's the consensus. Lets have a straw poll.
> ...


I mean a deposit in the normal sense. which is to say you reserve your pitch with a deposit so that you are giving financial commitment to honour it. A poll with numerous clauses would be difficult to put in place but it's the principle I'm looking for views on, the nitty gritty would come later


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## AberdeenAngus (Jul 26, 2008)

Or here's another question.........

Does anyone care enough to DO anything about it ?

or are you just bumpin ya gums ?


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## clodhopper2006 (Aug 13, 2006)

AberdeenAngus said:


> Or here's another question.........
> 
> Does anyone care enough to DO anything about it ?
> 
> or are you just bumpin ya gums ?


Exactly! Get your complaints in folks. You can do it by email. If the proportion of discontents shown here were extrapolated across the membership they would have to listen.


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## AberdeenAngus (Jul 26, 2008)

I for one, am a paid up member of the CC and will be sending off a strongly worded e-mail on the 'morrow.

Should we all bombard the same person.....!

Or is the scatter gun approach best  

Does anyone have the correct e-mail address to hand, or is there a generic mump address !


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## johnandcharlie (May 2, 2007)

I voted no because I normally only use club sites in the low season and normally book online the night before I arrive. I spend the summer on CLs so don't get the problem with full sites. I must admit that I've booked the cheapest open club site for Easter and Christmas/New Year, but will cancel well in advance if I make other plans. I'd also find having to pay a deposit online a real pain, as the CC web site is so slow when I rarely have a 3G phone signal or access to broadband. But then fulltimers are a minority, so I can see why most people would want a deposit system.


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## UncleNorm (May 1, 2005)

I am happy to put my money where my mouth is, so I have voted YES to a deposit.

If I were to book a pitch, I would willingly leave a deposit as a show of my intentions. If I was unable to fulfil my booking, I would not wish for others to suffer and would consider it reasonable for my deposit NOT to be returned.

"Metro Inns" has the following policy regarding bookings:

_*A credit card is required to guarantee the reservation only. The cancellation policy is 12 noon, 48 hours prior to arrival date. No charges will be debited in advance except in the event of non arrival or late cancellation. In this event, one night's accommodation will be charged. *_

Such a policy as this, in the case of no-shows, ensures the business/CC would not lose out entirely. The same policy also allows for courteous cancellation of a reservation, and gives time for the space/pitch/room to be reallocated.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

I voted NO and my reasoning can be found >here<  and >here<

peedee


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

I voted no because when ever I have used it I have never had a problem and like the freedom and simplicity of the system. The 'no shows' may be a tiny proportion and has been exagerated due to genuine peak bookings and introducing a charge may not be cost effective. Would the CC publish such usage data? perhaps this should be the question to ask first. Call me old fashioned but I still believe that most people are honest and caring enough to cancel bookings when circumstances (sometimes beyond their control) prevent them from going.

Graham


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## clodhopper2006 (Aug 13, 2006)

AberdeenAngus said:


> I for one, am a paid up member of the CC and will be sending off a strongly worded e-mail on the 'morrow.
> 
> Should we all bombard the same person.....!
> 
> ...


Write to

[email protected]

Please could people copy corespondance here if you don't mind.

Thanks,

Bob


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"No charges will be debited in advance except in the event of non arrival ...."

Errr, how does that work, then? 

Dave


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## Chascass (May 10, 2007)

YES, one of the main reasons for having a M/H is the freedom aspect, I don't want to sit on the phone in January in the hope of booking one of the more popular sites, if taking a deposit helps stop block bookings, I'm all for it.

Charlie


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## gromett (May 9, 2005)

I am for some kind of deposit system. I don't book until the night before I am ready to go and find too often I get the site full response. I have heard so many times of people who make bookings for a full year in advance and then don't show to some of them. This makes the spot they would have used unavailable technically but empty and that makes me angry.

Anything that allows more availability will be welcome in my view.

Karl


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## zappy61 (May 1, 2005)

Yes but I would like to know if there really is a problem and how big that problem is. This may be an elephant to crack a nut aproach if we are not careful. How about blocking bookings by membership number if they don't turn up? Or limiting the number of nights that can be pre booked by site or membership number. This of course takes us away from the simplicity and freedom of the existing system and may reduce income for the CC in the long term if people choose to go where deposits are not mandatory.

Graham


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## 115430 (Aug 11, 2008)

I'm undecided how to vote, having booked a CCC site last year (we're members of both clubs in this our first year of MH'ing) and was suprised to get billed £25 at the time of booking (we weren't members of the CCC at the time of booking so didn't know the rules).

This has led me to plan our trips since then with the CC to avoid the £25 deposits -- so the CC policy is bringing in (my) business at the expense of the CCC. 

We tend to plan ahead and the sites we want for our March trip are already booked (Rowntree Park is one) -- and it won't be long before planning our Scottish sites for September commences and the thought of committing £25 deposits so far in advance is not comfortable, though I would be happy to SECURE my bookings with a credit card knowing it would be billed if I didn't turn up.

I have NO idea if block booking and subsequent "no shows" is a problem as I've not been in the MH world long enough, does ANYBODY know and is it naive of me to think the CC would change their policy if so?.


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## lloydie (Jan 1, 2009)

A resounding YES!
If we can't make it due to severe ilness, a death in the family etc, then our travel insurance will cover the deposit. If however we don't go because the weather is bad or we decided to do something else, then tough, the deposit is gone and rightly so.

If we book a static caravan, cottage etc, there is always a deposit to pay and 99% of the time, full payment 6 weeks before arrival date if booked well in advance.

With motorhoming becoming ever more popular, something will need to be done to erradicate the selfish minority who spoil it for everyone else. The problem is going to get worse, not better as more join the club.


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## 115946 (Aug 25, 2008)

*Should the Caravan Club charge a Deposit for bookings*

New computer system is being introduced within the Caravan Club this year. They will be able to monitor "no shows" and send a polite letter to those members who are persistent offenders.

With todays system, no member can book more than one site on a given date

This is a small problem bearing in mind the size of The Club, and therefore it would not be cost effective to introduce a deposit booking requirement.

Popular sites will always be popular sites and therefore fill up early!!!


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

*Re: Should the Caravan Club charge a Deposit for bookings*



RJM said:


> New computer system is being introduced within the Caravan Club this year. They will be able to monitor "no shows" and send a polite letter to those members who are persistent offenders.
> 
> With todays system, no member can book more than one site on a given date
> 
> ...


Do you mean that no shows are not monitored now? And you say that members can't book more than one site on a date, but they can book a site for every week ahead.
And why would it not be cost effective to introduce deposits? The C&CC do it, any commercial site does it. Wouldn't it show a positive cash flow by getting some or all of the payment up front, rather than on arrival? :?: :?


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: Should the Caravan Club charge a Deposit for bookings*

Hi Mike

Just to pick up on the points you made. 



bognormike said:


> Do you mean that no shows are not monitored now?


They are, as you know Mike, but nothing seems to change as a result. What's the point of observation, without assessment and (if necessary) remediation? :?



bognormike said:


> And you say that members *can't book more than one site on a date*, but they can book a site for every week ahead.


If the computer software can be configured to allow only one booking per single date, it's no more difficult to configure it to accept no more than (say) three "open" bookings at any one time.



bognormike said:


> And why would it not be cost effective to introduce deposits? The C&CC do it, any commercial site does it. Wouldn't it show a positive cash flow by getting some or all of the payment up front, rather than on arrival? :?: :?


It would certainly not be a problem to use credit card details to *secure *a booking, as was suggested earlier. Then at least one night's fees could be taken if cancellations happened within (say) 48 hours of the booked time. 8)

It would not be unreasonable (IMO) to make this a non-negotiable condition, since genuine short-notice cancellations would happen very rarely to any individual member. :?

Many hotels use this system and it appears to work perfectly, and as far as I'm aware, nobody complains about it much - if at all!!

_*I must add that we like the CC from most other aspects, and although it is getting a bit expensive we are happy with value for money and good service.*_  

They just need to get the booking system sorted out . . . one way or another.

Enjoyed that rant. Thanks for the prompt Mike. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dave


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## clodhopper2006 (Aug 13, 2006)

*Re: Should the Caravan Club charge a Deposit for bookings*




RJM said:


> Popular sites will always be popular sites and therefore fill up early!!!


I think you're missing the point here. I don't think anybody is objecting to sites getting full. What really annoys people is when a site is fully booked by people who have made no commitment to turn up and therefore often don't. Consequently the site isn't full at all on the night but others have not been able to get on.


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## ned (Dec 12, 2006)

*CC*

Hi,
As a member who let go a very grumpy observation on a recent thread on the very same topic last week. I thought that I would update you on what I have done so far. 
I have emailed the Caravan club setting out my complaints and observations and also informing them that I would be attending their tuesday at the NEC and would appreciate a face to face discussion with an official not the volunteers.
To date I have only had an acknowledgement to the email.
I did mention that in their quest for new members some people may argue that there may be an element of fraudulent activity, as part of the sales pitch is giving new members the impression that they have all these campsites to go to; when in fact they will not be able to get onto them due, not only the pre- block booking system, but just the mathematics that there are infinitely more members than all the pitches available. So if I was selling say timeshares and I had 100 timeshare slots and I sold a club membership to 1000 members I would soon get a visit from trading standards.

I also raised the issue of long term pitch occupancy at a rate which is considerably less than I have to pay when I go onto the sites.
Freeing up these spaces and stopping people from having a 'small country residence' could ease the situation.

Cheers keep em waxed............ Ned


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## some-where-in-oxford (Apr 18, 2006)

Yesterday I started to book a list of 12 hotels throughout this year from March to October.

Each hotel booked either on the telephone or through their online booking system has asked for a credit card number to hold the booking.

Some online booking are cheaper, but the cheaper prices sometimes have a no refund policy. Others give a date a few days before your arrival, cancellation after this date no refund.

Regarding deposit on Caravan Club bookings I am undecided. Last year most trips were planned at the last minute, or a week or two before we plan to go away. We catch up at work, take Friday afternoon off, long weekend. 

Several weekends last year most of the sites I looked at were fully booked, some several weeks in advance.

I would be willing to pay a deposit if it made more dates available. As we book at the last minute, or just a week or so in advance would deposits make a difference?

Only the Caravan Club know their cancellation rate, so there is no way of knowing if people book every possible travel date they might be free, and cancel if they decide not to travel nearer the date.

If there is nothing in the rules that say you cannot book several sites, weeks in advance, it's difficult to complain when people do this, as no one is breaking the rules.

If they set up the site to only take bookings 30/60 days in advance that would cause members to complain.

If they took deposits on all booking that will upset some members. With such a large membership, it is impossible to please them all.

It would be interesting to know just how many cancellations there are to each member, this would be a good way to see what the booking patterns are.

I er towards deposits, but only if it would free up more dates available.


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## Triple7 (Oct 15, 2007)

*Re: Should the Caravan Club charge a Deposit for bookings*



RJM said:


> This is a small problem bearing in mind the size of The Club, and therefore it would not be cost effective to introduce a deposit booking requirement.


I'm sorry RJM, but that's cobblers, and is actually a typical CC answer without looking at the facts!! DO you work for them??

Quite the opposite is true actually, the more that would use the system the more cost effective it would become.
Furthermore, it would cost nothing, in fact it would make money, if the CC introduced a system where one would have to 'charge up an account' and then withdraw from it as you made bookings. This would have the massive advantage of creating massive cash flow, no debt or borrowing by the club, they would earn interest on the very large bank balance and it would reduce merchant charges by having less transactions. All of these would benefit the membership, but that's the issue, they don't give a toss about the membership!

When I have suggested ideas like this to the CC they are not interested, or offer a reason. They won't even reply to an email to the managment asking the question.
The CC is run by a certain age group for a certain age group, and that's why they won't introduce a booking system. No other reason but self interest!
I am at the point now where I'm seriously considering dropping my membership as the club has been absolutely NO benefit to me but to subsidise this certain age group! Anyway, I seem to stay on CCC sites as I can get a booking. With young girls, and a job, I don't have the luxury of time to book my entire year on a single stupid date, which is also immposible as every one else is spending the day pressing "refresh". WHAT A SHAMBLES, and please explian how it is defensible.

OK, now off the soap box. :wink:


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## clodhopper2006 (Aug 13, 2006)

*Re: CC*



ned said:


> To date I have only had an acknowledgement to the email.


On the couple of occasions I have written to them I have had to prompt them several times before they had the courtesy to reply


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## Broom (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi All

Just been reading post in the back ground and it's still a no from me, however

Triple7 

Sounds to me you just want to alter the caravan club looking after one set (mine) to look after another set which just happens to be yours.

The present system in my opinion is the best way to cater for the general club members.

Just get off your backsides plan the year ahead and book, if you are unable to make it cancel giving as much time as you possible can.

If on the spur of the moment use the CL, CS or private sites

I am at a loss to the fuss

Best Regards
Broom

PS
Back to my nap


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

Broom said:


> Just get off your backsides plan the year ahead and book, if you are unable to make it cancel giving as much time as you possible can


Surely that's the problem? People are booking the year ahead, without having any idea what's going to be happening from one week to the next. Those of us with the luxury of being retired is another matter, perhaps, but why should CC members who have unpredicatable jobs / private lives be penalised? They are members, like any other.

Gerald


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Ok so Broom came on a bit strong but I have some sympathy for his views.
If you cannot plan ahead for what ever reason then Gerald your point is equally valid for any sites and not just those of the CC. I wonder if any of those who have actually voted yes have bothered to look at the CC availability at sites throughout the year? I would love to know where they have had problems???? Instead of making sweeping statements lets see where the real problems lie?

Zappy excellent posts

peedee


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## clodhopper2006 (Aug 13, 2006)

Well personally the ones that I have had regular problems with is Edinburgh, White Water Stockton and Bunree. Now every time I have been on these sites I have seen places available on the night. This is even after having checked on my laptop the previous dayto find they are showing fully booked (you cant check online on the day itself). 
What a waste and a shame for those who would like to have been there.


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## Zozzer (Aug 13, 2006)

I would like to see a penalty imposed for a non show without a verifiable reason. So not only would have to pay a non refundable deposit, and failed to give the site at least 24hrs notice that you could not make it, you would also have the remainder added onto the cost of your next booking if you did not show up. In the even of a vehicle breakdown or an accident on the way, you would half the cost added to your next booking.

You may not like my suggestion but something has got to be down about those self fair weather campers block booking sites, when there are so many disillusioned members who would love the chance to stay on the more popular sites.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

clodhopper2006 said:


> Well personally the ones that I have had regular problems with is Edinburgh,


Well Edinburgh, being one of the popular sites, was one of those I checked yesterday and I was surprised to find no bookings for the peak of July and August. Even today you can get a pitch for the late spring bank holiday. At least you got on Bob! I know there are problems with certain sites and there always has been and always will be even if you introduce a deposit system. There was before when there was a deposit system and things are not going to change on these very popular sites whatever the club does.

peedee


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## clodhopper2006 (Aug 13, 2006)

Yes but Peedee, at the risk of being repetitive, I don't think anyone has a problem with popular sites being actualy full ie no unoccupied pitches on the night, I certainly haven't.


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## toojo (Dec 4, 2008)

*DEPOSIT*

Got to be yes or it would be a free for all.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

But you have no guarantee that will be the case even with a deposit system. Ok if it does fix the problem then those who want a last minute pitch and that seems to be many on here will stand no chance. Now I am being repetitive.


peedee


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

Rownetree Park in York is fully booked most fri sat night throughout the year as well as most school holidays.

We have been lucky and got on this site a few times over the last 2 years, guess what is was showing fully booked the day before along with a sign as you go in saying full, but each night we have been there I have counted at least 3 pitchs empty and that was in August.

At the risk of being shot down 

I will admit on here that we booked CC sites for all of our holidays for this year when the booking first opened. We will cancell a few of these due to other commitments, but we will at least cancel them 2 weeks before we are due to go if we can not make it.

But what choice have we got when we go away in school holidays?

If there was a booking system I believe that you would not have to book some sites 12months in advance as people would not just book every thing up in case they want to go away if it is sunny


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

A point worth clarifying I think!  

It's not the one or two free pitches that annoy me, as it is both reasonable and sensible for the wardens to keep a couple of pitches free for emergency (which they do as a matter of policy.).

For example, if someone is ill and needs to stay on for a night or two, or if a unit breaks down and has to wait for repair. I've been there when it happened, and the relief on the face of the unfortunate member (when told there would be no problem extending their stay) was a joy to behold.

It's when there are more than the one or two vacant pitches I get really pee'd off, because that clearly indicates that they have been booked but those who booked them have not shown up. :evil: 

How many emergencies can there be . . . virtually every weekend of the year on some sites . . . it would appear!! 8O 8O 

Dave


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## toojo (Dec 4, 2008)

*booking*

Got to admit cases for both.I just sway with the fors.John.


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## Waggy (Jan 15, 2006)

We like to book our main holidays well in advance. Sometimes, eg Edinburgh for the Tattoo it is essential. 

At the moment we have 6 CC bookings, 5 CCC and 1 private site (6 x £25 = £150 deposits paid) Baring unforeseen circumstances we have every intention of keeping these bookings, deposit or no deposit. 

There seems to be some anectdotal evidence of no shows at busy times but as Zeb has pointed out there might be good Managerial reasons for some empty pitches. Have any empty pitches been observed at "full" CCC club sites? The CC have said that instances of no shows are insignificant. Since empty pitches = lost revenue why would they not take action if this was a problem? 

It is not reasonable to compare the practise at private sites and hotels etc. Advance booking is a privilege of membership at both clubs and it should not be difficult to identify and deal with any persistent abusers of the system. I am not convinced that payment of deposits would make any real difference to bookings when demand exceeds supply. 

I fully understand that many like to travel at short notice but by the nature of things they must take their chance. I certainly would not agree that their choice should act to the detriment of my choice to book early


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## Chascass (May 10, 2007)

It is not members who book and then do not show that bothers me, that should be dealt with by the rules of the club. 

It is the fact that in theory, if you wished, you could book in January, every weekend in the year at the most popular site's, and then cancel (in good time) if you do not fancy some week ends when they come round, without any penalty.

The example I have given I know is extreme, but in my experience if a thing can be done it will be, and the more people cannot book these sites in reasonable time, the more people will be siting by the phone in January, if you can't beat them join them

Charlie


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

I wouldn't ask for a deposit on booking, I'd ask for payment in full at the time of booking. That'd deter those who book up every weekend for the season in January then progressively cancel or just don't turn up.

Refundable if cancelled early less 10% admin charge.

No refunds after 30 days prior to the reservation. 

Lets face it, if someone has to closer than that it'll usually be due to illness or similar so they should take out holiday insurance to cover their payment, same as for any other form of holiday.


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## Waggy (Jan 15, 2006)

gaspode said:


> I wouldn't ask for a deposit on booking, I'd ask for payment in full at the time of booking. That'd deter those who book up every weekend for the season in January then progressively cancel or just don't turn up.
> 
> Refundable if cancelled early less 10% admin charge.
> 
> ...


With all this money on deposit no doubt site fees would be considerably reduced. :roll: :twisted:

Whilst what you describe is possible under the rules, I wonder just how much of this goes on. In any case if bookings are cancelled with 2/3 weeks notice does this not give the late bookers a chance?


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## Triple7 (Oct 15, 2007)

Broom said:


> Sounds to me you just want to alter the caravan club looking after one set (mine) to look after another set which just happens to be yours.


Oh come on Broom, how would a deposit system help any CC membership 'sets'. You could still sit in front of your computer and book your entire year on the day the system opened. So how does this have any advantage for me. Go on, I await your explanation on how a deposit system would "look after" my 'set', let alone any 'set'.
What it would do, is stop the practice of over-booking by ANY 'set'. However, as confirmed in your posting, you prefer the current status quo as it suits *your* 'set', which is not very fair. Is it????



Broom said:


> The present system in my opinion is the best way to cater for the general club members.


Really,..............I think you will find the 'majority' of the club, as shown in this survey, do want a deposit system. However, the CC management don't because of 'vested interest'.
Hence why I'm considering leaving and not subsidising your 'set'.



Broom said:


> Just get off your backsides plan the year ahead and book, if you are unable to make it cancel giving as much time as you possible can


I'm sorry Broom, but this is just bloody rude!!
I "get off my backside" every day of the week with work, kids, home, fixing my crap MH and all the other jobs that 40 somethings have to do. I'm not retired with plenty of time to 'sit on my backside'! :x

SO, I await an answer on how someone who works in the airline industry and works weekends and bank holidays, but does not know his work program until 6 weeks before, "gets off his backside" and plans a whole year!!!

As soon as we have my program, and can see what time I have with my science teacher wife (therefore same time off as the kids), we start trying to get a booking, but with the CC the sites we try are usually all 'fully booked'. And, we have just confirmed this again in the Feb half term.
Well, thats OK if indeed they are fully booked, as it's not other peoples fault what I do for a living, but I do wonder how much of this is block booking. I suspect a large element, as we have less trouble with the CCC.

Broom....Please stick to known facts and don't tell someone to "get off their backside" when you have no idea who they are or what they do.

I say againing, a deposit system would favour no particular group, but would stop unneccessary block booking.

I await your reply with interest. Thank you.


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## loughrigg (Nov 10, 2008)

As a newbie, I'll freely admit to having no experience of the booking issues that are being discussed.

While direct correlation across sectors/industries is rarely appropriate, I think I would have expected a booking system roughly similar to that applied by most, if not all, of the B&B/hotels that I used for the last 30 odd years.

- If the business does not operate online booking/accept credit cards, bookings are subject to receipt of a deposit by cheque;
- online/credit card based bookings generally require a deposit or, at the very least, a credit card number to confirm the booking;
- the great majority allow cancellation up to a one or two weeks prior to the booked date at no charge, but after that the deposit is returnable _only if the accommodation can be resold_

If booking a number of sites at one time, I can see that taking a fixed deposit for every booking could appear to be quite expensive. That said, if I was booking a series of B&B rooms or a two week package holiday, I would expect to pay a fair percentage of the total cost as a deposit- and would not object to that.

It seems quite strange to operate a "no commitment" booking system. Equally, until I started to read threads on this subject, I don't think it would have occurred to me to book accommodation that I did not fully intend to use (as seems to be suggested by some postings) .

I look forward to my first encounter with the CC booking system with some trepidation.

Mike


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## Broom (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi All

Triple7

My reply :wink: 

Best Regards
Broom


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## iandsm (May 18, 2007)

*booking*

Seems to me that any genuine person wishing to book ahead a particular site could not possibly have any objection to paying a deposit non refundable less than four weeks before arrival. This could be the same as the C&CC system where if there is a genuine reason for cancellation nearer than four weeks from arrival, the deposit would be held against a future booking.

Also seems to me that to book a site without paying a deposit in the knowledge that you are going to cancel nearer the time, even if it is two weeks before arrival is unfair and selfish. this practice excludes other members who might wish to make a genuine booking intending to arrive and use the pitch but cannot because of it. It makes planning a trip more difficult too.

If a member really intends to stay on a particular site, then I feel they should book and pay a deposit. If they think they might, at some time in the year, if the weather is OK, the dog well enough and the price of fuel cheap enough, possibly visit a site, they should not book it but take their chance when they have made their mind up.

If a person books a site without a deposit, does not cancel and just does not turn up and I was unable to book that site because the pitch was reserved for them, they would be well advised not to boast about it within my hearing.

Bottom line is be fair, if you intend to use the pitch then book it and don't moan if you are asked for a deposit. If you dont know or can't make your mind up, don't book and give someone else a chance, try your luck nearer the time if you later decide.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Good post Iandsm. 

Clear, ambivalent and irrefutably logical.

Regrettably accurate as well - there do seem to be a number of very selfish people around.

It's difficult to think of any other way to describe those who seem proud of the fact that they book up just about every weekend, then cancel many or most bookings at short notice, _"Because there's nothing in the rules to stop me doing that!"_

I agree with you entirely. It would be good if everyone tried to be fair!

Dave


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

Can non-members book sites at the beginning of the booking season ?

G


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Zebedee said:


> Good post Iandsm.
> 
> Clear, ambivalent and irrefutably logical.
> 
> ...


Its not, it insults my integrity and honesty and probably that of other club members. You don't know block booking is ocuring and members not turning up for no good reason. A couple of days ago I browsed the availability of at least one popular site in every region and in some cases a few more and apart from the usual problem sites there was plenty of availability including weekends. I know I am in a minority here but I think this thread and others are making mountains out of mole hills. People like Triple7 will have a problem no matter where they try in peak times and I can well understand why he woould wish to give up his membership if all he wants from the club is to use their sites.

Griz I think none members can book only with the site and that means they will have to wiat until it is open if it isn't an all year site.

I am sticking to my beliefs until the CLUB reveals otherwise.

peedee


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## iandsm (May 18, 2007)

*booking*

Hi Peedee, I certainly had no intention of questioning the honesty and integrity of anyone who makes a geniuine booking intending to take it up arrive and use the pitch. However, I do question the person who books and thereby blocks a pitch just because they might want it themselves if the weather is right and the dog is well etc etc etc. This seems to me very selfish and unfair and I for one certainly would not do it.

As for evidence of this type of booking, last summer I did a round Britain trip and I gave up trying to book on the web at CC sites because I found many fully booked with no pitches available. What I did was just turn up and suprise suprise, I always got on and also found other empty pitches as well. However, I did not have the same problem with C&CC sites

Speak to any CL owner and you will find they suffer no shows during the year. Club and CL pitches blocked by those who don't know whether they might turn up and use them are, without question unavailable for me you and anyone else. All I am asking is that people are fair and don't book pitches on the off chance they just might want them later. Or if they do decide they dont want them, cancel not less than four weeks prior to intended arrival, I really cannot see how anyone can take issue with that.


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## Triple7 (Oct 15, 2007)

Broom,
:wink:


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## mangothemadmonk (Aug 6, 2006)

Defo BIG yes from me. 

Sorry that should read...

Definitely, a large YES from ones self!!

Johnny F


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

mangothemadmonk said:


> Defo BIG yes from me.
> 
> Sorry that should read...
> 
> ...


Hi Johnny,

Long time no hear. :wink:

It's a big yes from me too. Club management admit that block booking is happening and have indicated that three no shows (without explanation), results in a termination of the offender's membership.

Jock.


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Iandsm - agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph..

and Jock, yes I've seen that too, but it should be applied not just to no-shows, but to the ones who cancel (with no good reason) less than 1 week before the booking.

Also the club should publicise these "expulsions" in the magazine in the future, (and has anybody been banned so far? :?: ) It would show as a warning to others that if they abuse the system they WILL be banned.

But the easiest thing to do to stop it all would be deposits!!!


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

bognormike said:


> and Jock, yes I've seen that too, but it should be applied not just to no-shows, but to the ones who cancel (with no good reason) less than 1 week before the booking.
> 
> Also the club should publicise these "expulsions" in the magazine in the future, (and has anybody been banned so far? :?: ) It would show as a warning to others that if they abuse the system they WILL be banned.
> 
> But the easiest thing to do to stop it all would be deposits!!!


Oh aye Mike, I could easily go along with that, as I could with the "name and shame" suggestion. :wink:

Jock.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

JockandRita said:


> Oh aye Mike, I could easily go along with that, as I could with the "name and shame" suggestion. :wink:
> Jock.


Yes indeed Jock and Bognormike

The only people likely to object are the selfish ones who "use" the system to their own advantage, with no thought to others who _(as has been said several times!!)_ may not know their holiday dates very far in advance, or for whatever reason cannot, or do not wish to book months ahead.

Dave


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## Mikemoss (Sep 5, 2005)

There's absolutely no way I can plan a whole year in advance, or would want to even if I could, so that's a non-starter. 

Did anyone else notice the startling statistic in this month's CC mag that 28,000 bookings (yes, twenty-eight thousand bookings) were taken on the first day. I find it hard to believe that all those 28,000 bookings will actually be honoured, which means people who want to turn up on spec or who use their motorohome for 'proper' touring rather than limping from one pre-booked pitch to the next will be denied the opportunity.

Why on earth doesn't the club follow the advice given by many on here of taking credit card details, then debiting the card in the event of a late cancellation or no-show? At the moment it's just too easy to hedge your bets and book every conceivable site you might or might not get around to actually using.


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## some-where-in-oxford (Apr 18, 2006)

It all sounds like towels on deckchairs in the early hours.

Would forcing people to pay a deposit in advance for the chairs make any difference.


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## Waggy (Jan 15, 2006)

JockandRita said:


> Club management admit that block booking is happening and have indicated that three no shows (without explanation), results in a termination of the offender's membership.
> 
> Jock.


Jock, where does this information come from? Has the _Club_ provided any data about this?

I can not understand why the Club would tolerate this loss of revenue if it is significant. The culprits (members) can presumably be readily identified and dealt with without the time and expense of taking deposits from many thousands of members.



Mikemoss said:


> ...... people who want to turn up on spec or who use their motorohome for 'proper' touring rather than limping from one pre-booked pitch to the next will be denied the opportunity.


Revealing and suggests some intolerance of the way others use their Motorhomes 8O


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

some-where-in-oxford said:


> It all sounds like towels on deckchairs in the early hours.
> 
> Would forcing people to pay a deposit in advance for the chairs make any difference.


An astute and graphic summary of a too long thread.

And what is the answer?:

a) whinge about the Germans? (sorry! but makes my point)
b) whinge about the establishment that doesn't enforce more equitable behaviour?
c) resolve to get up early if you can?

Dave


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## iandsm (May 18, 2007)

*booking*

The answer is simple, Dont put your towel on the chair unless you really want to use it. If you decide not to use it, remove the towel from the chair in good time and let someone else get sunburned. If you leave your towel on the chair and don't use it, don't' moan if an unhappy holidaymaker throws it in the pool or compalins to the attendant.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

How do I throw a CC booking (towel) into the delete box (pool)? I'm sure there are many who would like to know! 

Otherwise, I can do what you exhort, you can do it, but we can't make the others do it :-(

The answer in life generally is that every child should be a better parent than they had, but it doesn't mean it's gonna happen.

Dave


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Mikemoss said:


> Did anyone else notice the startling statistic in this month's CC mag that 28,000 bookings (yes, twenty-eight thousand bookings) were taken on the first day.


28,000 represents a mere 3 percent of the membership but you didn't mention the important point:

"For 2010 bookings will have new software and new hardware and we are already looking at the best way of evening out these artificial peaks while being fair to the bulk of the membership"

80 percent of MHF subscribers have reason to be hopeful then?

peedee


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## Broom (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi Peedee

Its a lot but we still managed to get booked where we wanted and when we wanted. 

Just one hickup I got booked in at Castlton, must have been the last pitch as my mate tried 2 minutes later and failed to get a pitch.


Best Regards
Broom


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

Waggy said:


> Jock, where does this information come from? Has the _Club_ provided any data about this?


Hi Waggy,

I can't provide any data about it, I can only relate to a telephone conversation I had with a "sites manager" at the CC HQ in East Grinstead. 
He admitted that the number of "no shows was unacceptable, and that they had either, or were about to apply, a "three strikes" rule, (can't remember which now). I haven't read anything about that rule in any club literature.

Our conversation also hit on the subject of not being able to book a pitch suitable for the size and weight of the unit......................but that didn't get very much of an airing either.


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## Chascass (May 10, 2007)

I have just read the article in the C/C Mag. and the important part, and the reason for the article, was to allow the clubs Director General to apologise for the inadequate computer booking system, in allowing only 28,000 to book on the first day (20% more than last year ) and the difficulties members experienced. 

For him to make the apology, a very large number of members must have complaint that they could not get through on the first day.
I wonder how many booked on the 2 ........days

Charlie


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## Waggy (Jan 15, 2006)

Thanks Jock.

We will just have to wait to see what they come up with


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

A good poll Bob (clodhopper2006), a healthy response from MHF subscribers, possibly one of the highest since subscriptions were introduced.

Would anyone like to interpret the results of this poll and that which asked "Would the introduction of deposits for the advanced booking of pitches by the Caravan Club alter your booking habits?" Its >here< I suspect my interpretation would be clouded by my beliefs.

Ok so I am in the minority in being against the introduction of deposits but I thought a little bit of history and a few more facts would be of interest to those who have not been members of the club for long or have perhaps forgotten them.

The internet booking system was introduced in December 2005 to speed up the handling of bookings, it was only then a deposit system was abandoned. Prior to this a £10 deposit was taken but it was still very difficult to get bookings on popular sites and there were still "no shows" and the system was being abused even then with selfish members making multiple bookings. The internet booking system put a stop to the multiple bookings and it was reported the number of "no shows" declined, it was thought due to members finding it easier to cancel. Members were happier with this and so was the club because it meant pitches got re-booked more often than not.

In 2006 the booking system was made more user friendly but this seems to have corresponded with a rising discontent with the lack of availability of pitches. This was compounded by the growth in membership which seems to have averaged 50,000 new members per year with good retentions. Even in 2006 the accusations as per this thread started to fly with complaints being made to the Chairman himself and at Regional. Council meetings. They were in fact raised with the Executive Council and are documented for members in the Club's magazine in March 2006 and I quote from the archives:

"Enlarging on a point made by Council member Ron Sherwood, Brian Savage said the Club's decision not to charge a deposit when accepting site bookings was designed to speed up the process. There was no evidence that 'no-deposit' bookings increase the number 'no shows' on Club sites; but the situation would be monitored closely and reviewed next year."

I can only assume,

1.	The club does continue to monitor the situation and is happy with it
2.	The computer system does not report in sufficient depth the alleged booking abuse.

I eagerly await the results of further complaints.

One final point for MHF members to ponder upon, if, as I suspect, the real problem lies with not enough pitches to meet demand, is the club right to continue the approach of investing in more sites with full facilities. They intend to open 9 more this year. With the increasing popularity of the motorhome , could the money they are investing be put to better use by providing basic facilities for motorhomes to stop over. After all, surely the time is now ripe to buy land, perhaps brown field sites, close to attractions?

Alternatively they could help or encourage selected CL owners to provide these.

peedee


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Peedee

Interesting points made there, but one brief but vital comment is rather suspect - to say the least!!

*Quote *. . . . _"Enlarging on a point made by Council member Ron Sherwood, Brian Savage said the Club's decision not to charge a deposit when accepting site bookings was designed to speed up the process. *There was no evidence that 'no-deposit' bookings increase the number 'no shows' on Club sites;* but the situation would be monitored closely and reviewed next year." _

Referring to the emboldened text in the quote, this is statistical nonsense.

Since the club has never charged a deposit since beginning the new booking system, on what basis do they make this comparison?

To compare the number of 'no shows' to the old "clockwork" system is not very valid, especially when (as someone said) 28,000 members booked this year on the first day alone.

I'm not having a go at you of course Peedee, but that really is a pretty meaningless statement when one stops and thinks for a minute.

Dave

Edited for clarity.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Zeb, 
I don't know what evidence they used it was not elaborated upon but for me it shows;

1. They were aware and have discussed it looking at the evidence available to them some of which may have come from wardens records for all I know. 
2. I cannot believe they have not kept it under review and the statement is consistent with my own recent inquiries last year both from wardens and a Council Member.
3. They clearly believe the evidence they have, in spite of complaints.

However, it is an old statement and things could change but I doubt it.

By all means have a go at me, I can take it as long as at the at the end of the day I don't have to eat humble pie  

peedee


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi again Peedee

I'd rather have a go at the CC than bully you - at least I think they deserve it! :lol: :lol: :wink: :wink: 

As you so rightly say, it's very difficult (impossible even) to reach valid conclusions without verifiable evidence.

As one who used to go to the Tewkesbury site very often as a weekend break from the day job, I became aware of the discrepancy between "full" sites, and sites which are actually full! 8O 8O 

It's particularly bad there, the warden told me, because it's a very convenient stopover (just off the motorway) between "oop north" and the south west. Members would book in for a Friday night, then either stop before they got there, or shoot straight past if they were making better time than expected.

This fired my interest (and annoyance) and I began mentioning it to wardens whenever the opportunity arose. :roll: (Shades of Victor Meldrew!! :roll:  )

Most of them have said there is a problem with no-shows . . . but with varying degrees of reticence, which makes me think they have been told not to discuss it with members??

One or two have been quite vehement about it, and said it is the thing that annoys them most about their job - and what causes more aggro for them than anything else.

None of this is much more reliable than hearsay of course, but the weight of anecdotal "evidence" does suggest that the problem exists, and is significant.

I don't necessarily think a deposit system is necessary, but would like them to take credit card details with the bookings and charge at least one night (two at a weekend) for any who don't show up at short notice.

Their argument about slowing down the booking process is feeble, since they would usually have to take each member's card details only once, and at each successive booking would need only to read back the last four digits for confirmation. (Online bookings could work in just the same way.)

It ain't rocket science, and most hotels seem to manage OK with that system.

Waffle over.    

Only repeating what I have heard, but can see no reason for wardens to tell porkies.

Dave


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

What you are told probably varies from warden to warden depending how rough a week he/she has had and also the site. I am sure some sites are better than others.

Incidently the Council member I spoke to also performs volunteer warden duties. This maybe true of other Council members so there is also first hand experience within the management body.

It is very worthwhile going to the regional question times, you can learn a lot and it gives you chance to air your views to the Council members present. Much better than tackling someone on the NEC stand who may know little about the question you are asking. You can table your questions in advance so they can come prepared with answers and you can sometimes get a good discussion going. I haven't been for a few years but just might go this year for the tea and biccies if nothing else.

peedee


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

I agree with Zebedee about the booking situation and the 'analysis' of the statistics- 

Imagine being able to book any holiday - say, a cruise, or a hotel holiday in Torremolinos for example ( not comparing one with the other, mind), and only have to pay if you turn up for the flight or at the dockside.

If you couldn't be bothered to turn up, or cancel in advance, that would be OK, no charge made by the company.

Back in the real world, most holiday companies that I know of charge at least a deposit at time of booking, if not the entire amount. Refunds are given on a sliding scale depending on how far in advance you cancel - often cancellation within 1 month of departure results in no refund at all. It is then necessary to claim back under any travel insurance cover in place, if applicable.

This seems to work for the mass market holiday companies, so why should Caravan Club be any different?

Interesting thread though!

David


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

My argument against this is that its a club not a business for which I pay subscriptions for privileges in return. If I break the rules I can be punished, in the extreme expelled.

peedee


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

peedee said:


> My argument against this is that its a club not a business for which I pay subscriptions for privileges in return. If I break the rules I can be punished, in the extreme expelled.
> peedee


It was.

Not sure it still is?

Hmmmmm. :? :?

Dave

P.S. About time I repeated . . . I am generally very happy with the CC, but think this one aspect lets them down.

It means that not all members are able to enjoy the same level of privileges. :?


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

peedee said:


> My argument against this is that its a club not a business


No disrespect Peedee, but that is an extremely arguable point. As a member of some 20 years, I now see it as a profit driven organisation, ie, a business.
The "members" are regarded as nothing more than customers, that have to be tolerated. 
It's not something I feel that I belong to any more, but more like something I pay into, and feel that I lose out. As an example, non members can have priority over a suitable pitch, just because they get there before me, simply because the "club" rules do not permit the pre-booking of a suitable pitch 8O 8O 8O

I am not naive enough to think that my annual membership renewal matters one bit to the club management.

Yours disillusioned,

Jock.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Jock,
Its not really profit driven, there are no share holders and if you look at the club accounts, sites only just make a profit, something like £100K on a £27 million turn over. The money is made elsewhere and after costs it is ploughed back into the organisation. However I tend to agree with you, it has got less like a club over the years but I attribute that to its growth, more people in it for what they can get out of it rather than putting something back and it is now so large it must be run on professional lines or descend into chaos.
The club spirit came from local centres, unfortunately a very large proportion of members don't even join a local centre let alone rally. I think there is an attempt, with the introduction of "events," to try to introduce more members into local centres to try an bring back a bit more of the club spirit. Perhaps it will work perhaps not.

Its still a club though and when you book a site you agree to abide by the booking terms and conditions which unlike a business are not very onerous.

peedee


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## clodhopper2006 (Aug 13, 2006)

peedee said:


> Would anyone like to interpret the results of this poll and that which asked "Would the introduction of deposits for the advanced booking of pitches by the Caravan Club alter your booking habits?" Its


It could be interpreted that 41% of respondants would stop making bookings unless they intended to actually turn up as they may loose their tenner.


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## loughrigg (Nov 10, 2008)

I know this thread is all about booking pitches on sites and this is not a particularly fair comparison (temporary site / far fewer bookings / terms may be dictated by NEC ) but......

I just looked at my reservation for the NEC (booked by credit card over the internet)

I can cancel up to Feb 9th subject to a £5 cancellation fee (presumably my credit card would be refunded less the charge);

If I cancel after Feb 9th - no refund.

If I remember the opening credits to the Six Million Dollar Man - "We have the technology........"

Mike


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Perhaps its a pilot for things tocome?

peedee


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