# Over engine insulation collapse- A Class.



## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

Hi

I have a Pilote Explorateur Diamond 832 but I suspect the issue applies to a number of A class vehicles.

Above the engine and below the dash area is a thickness of sound/heat insulation. At the forward end it is (or should be) screwed to an apparently very thin glass fibre cross member. 

We were driving up through France on our way back from Spain in March when I realised I was getting frozen about the midriff. No amount of heating changed the situation. I looked under the bonnet to find that the insulation had become unscrewed from the cross member and was "scooping" freezing air into the cab under the dashboard. Being practical this was not a problem. I found a handful of replacement screws and repaired it. They all pulled out within 20 miles. So I used bigger screws. They lasted 30 miles. ...and bigger screws... Eventually I used half a roll of tank tape and that last a fair distance before it had to be replaced with the other half of the roll to get us home.

Has anyone else had this problem and is there a more permanent fix? 

I had thought of forcing epoxy putty into the existing screw holes and drilling for new self-taps but as I can't get to the inside of the cross member to form the putty over on the inside, the fix wouldn't last long either. Glue wouldn't be effective because of the fibrous nature of the insulation.

The snag is that there is lots of vibration and lots of airflow. Not good for a simple fix.

Any ideas?

HyFy

PS I had thought to fibre-glass some flat hooks to hold the insulation in place but wondered for how long we would be inhaling the resin fumes!!


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Could you glass some 25 PSE wood up to give you some meat to screw into, perhaps using those beige clamps for the Truma blown air heating pipes,










or maybe even just glass a few of those in direct, as they have a decent size base to them, you'd need to support them of course until the resin cured.


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## emjaiuk (Jun 3, 2005)

I'd screw AND glue a strip of plastic or metal to the bodywork immediately in front of the insulation, clamping the insulation down. Similar to the way a carpet gripper works between a solid floor and carpet. That should divert the airflow away from the gap between the insulation and the bodywork.

Best of luck

Malcolm


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Bugger, I completely misread the OP, sorry, other things on my mind, I thought ducting for some reason was the problem.

I'd find some method of closing the gap, perhaps wedges or short sticks to hold it closed and doing it in sections, get some strips of glass fibre matt well soaked in resin & close it up, let those go off which will then hold it together while you do the same to the remaining parts, bad design by the sound of it.

It'll look a bit odd, so maybe get some matt black brush paint to make it look better once it gone off, if possible leave it until you get home and not going to be using it for a while to get rid of the resin smell.


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## Jean-Luc (Jul 21, 2005)

Think of the standard vehicle cab, now think of the bit between the front of the standard dash, the bit between the bottom of the windscreen and where the standard bonnet closes (the bit where the original windscreen wiper spindles would have come through).

In an A class it is to this few inches that the underside of the extended dash is fixed to. The configuration is usually a return fibreglass section from the bottom of the windscreen ope which is fixed to the metal bit mentioned above, this is then covered/trimmed off by the visible dash extension which extends beyond the vehicle original dash to the bottom of the A Class windscreen.
It has been know for this fixing to come adrift, symptoms are movement/vibration between the vehicle dash and in your case the Pilote dash extension, also this parting of company opens up a clear passage for under-bonnet air/fumes to pass straight into the cab area.

First thing to do is remove the A Class dash extension, this should expose the joint underneath between the Pilote section coming back from the bottom of the windscreen and the original vehicle bit, check the fastenings and you may be able to see the gap mentioned.

If this is your underlying issue it's a matter of redoing the fixings, if access permits a row of nuts & bolts is better than screws. 
If this is your problem the movements/vibrations you mention should be cured and the insulation should remain in place.

If the mechanical joint between the two sections is ok no draft should be able to get through, the insulation is primarily to deaden sound and heat/cold transmission between the engine compartment and the cab through the bulkhead which should be effectively preventing airflow between both areas.


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## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

Merci bien Jean-Luc.

I have to say that I hadn't thought of going at it from above but I now will. It seems to best option for a permanent job.

But the other suggestions of fibre-glassing fixings also are very viable and for which suggestions - thanks. If the "Top down" doesn't work I will be out with the resin and matting...

You wouldn't believe that three weeks on the Pilote site produced "0".

Yours

Geoffrey.


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## Jean-Luc (Jul 21, 2005)

Hi HyFy

Your comment "_The snag is that there is lots of vibration and lots of airflow_" leads me to suspect the root of your problem is a separation of the fixing between the A Class section aft of the windscreen and the top of the original vehicle bulkhead ahead of the original vehicle dash.
I've attached a photo to indicate where I'm talking about, hope it helps.


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## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

That's about the area/line. After all of the problems that we had with it, I can't believe that I don't have a picture of the thing under the bonnet. The vehicle is back in storage 45 mins away so... But I'm with it on Friday for it's habitation check so maybe I can get a picture and post it.

I'll post a picture and put on it what I have in mind.

Thanks for your help.

It's really appreciated.

I put the same issue on the Pilote Owner's forum. It got a load of views but not one suggestion to help... The main dealer/importer doesn't apparently watch the forum either!

Still at least we have good old Motorhomefacts Forum to get us out of the m...

Thanks

Geoffrey


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

MHF, possibly the best MoHo forum in the world.


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## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

I think that you are very right!!

I will get some pictures on Friday and post them but I think that I may already have been given the answers.

...loads of fibre glass matting and resin!

Thanks

Geoffrey


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Yes we do have a wonderful membership on here that amazed me quite a few times over the last 10 years.

However I noticed that you never gave us the age of the vehicle or how long you have owned it. Plus did you have a word with the a Pilote Dealer in the UK, or maybe you might have thought about dropping into the pilote factory and asking them if this was a new air system and why the very poor quality.
Pilote motorhomes are based in France. They have a large factory in Membrolle-sur-Longuenée. This is close to Angers. They also have a motorhome service centre (MSC) in Mebrolle-sur-Longuenée. The centre assists customers. 
Have you got good cause to insist that the dealer contact Pilote and request advice as to repairs.
A case of if you don't ask you won't get.

cabby


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## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

Thanks for that Cabby. 

The vehicle is just three years old and I've owned it for 2 of those. So it's not under warranty to cover this sort of issue. Yes I've spoken to both the dealer that I bought it from and also Hayes. Both said, "Bring the vehicle to us and we'll have a look." That's fine but both are a day's journey away and once I've an idea to repair it myself, I can probably do so at a much more economical cost. Similarly dropping into Pilote in France is OK when you're not making for a booked ferry and commitments back in the UK. I had thought that by contacting dealers etc they would say that they had met the issue before and could give advice or say how easy or otherwise it would be for them to repair it. But I guess that I will take the advice already given by MHF members and get on with some fibreglass and resin and just hope that the fumes will have eased by the time my co-pilot needs to travel!!

But thanks as always for your advice, Cabby.

Geoffrey


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

That I can understand, but I still think that an email to France claiming that you are horrified at the lack of quality regarding this model and can they explain how and why this should happen.

cabby


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## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

I can always give that a go. I'll get the pictures and...

Thanks

Geoffrey.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Can I suggest you get a proper French speaker to translate into french for you and send it in both languages,in the one email, as we all know that English is not understood by 95% of the French.:wink2::wink2:

cabby


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

cabby said:


> Can I suggest you get a proper French speaker to translate into french for you and send it in both languages,in the one email, as we all know that English is not understood by 95% of the French.:wink2::wink2:
> 
> cabby


There are more than one of the customer service personnel at the Pilote factory in La Limouzinière with perfect English, which is the address for any and all customer contact.
The La Membrolle one is primarily the production site for Le Voyageur and the Explorateur range, the service centre I understand is run independently.

Should Geoffrey (hyfy) contact them direct I'd guess the only offer to help would be at his expense, as he mentions the vehicle is out of warranty.
They do not carry out any remedials at the factory but will authorise agreed repairs at an appointed agent

Geoffrey I think you're best to carry on as you suggest and repair yourself, you will at least then know what sort of quality the repairs have been made to.


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## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

Merci bien pour ça mais je parle français assez bien, moi-même. Nous avons habité en France pendant 10 ans jusqu'à deux mille dix. C'est pourquoi je vote "quittez" aujourd'hui!!

Seriously, thanks again Cabby,

Geoffrey


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## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

Thanks eurajohn. It's getting it's "Habitation" tomorrow. I'll look at the task afresh.

Geoffrey


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Could not have put it better myself.:grin2::grin2:

cabby


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## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

Back to mowing the lawn!!

HyFy


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## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

*Pictures and the solution*

Hi

As promised a picture of the problem AND the chap who did the Habitation Service today came up with what is probably the solution...

The first picture shows the fibre glass cross-member and the sagging insulation with a thinner more solid leading edge which is what was screwed to the cross-member. The insulation is currently only supported by the two washer supply tubes!!

The second picture shows the answer as suggested by Richard Young of Mercia Mobile Caravan Service. I've not found an English name for them. The french call them "Chevilles à expansion" or literally "expanding ankles!" B+Q have something similar called "Bolt anchors" or was it "Anchor bolts"? Either way they expand inside a blind area when you pull the screw head outwards with a special pulling tool. I may look for something smaller. I only have ones with 5 or 6 mm screws. But once in place and with a suitable flat washer each they should do the job. I will let you know.

But thanks for all of your advice and suggestions.

Once again MHF Forum worth it's weight in...

Geoffrey (HyFy)


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## Jean-Luc (Jul 21, 2005)

THESE are the type of fixings you're talking about.

If using them ensure that you pack some strips of ply between the 'leading edge' and the head to make sure they pull the two sections you need to join together and create a tight joint before they come to the end of their travel, otherwise you'll end up with a loose joint and be unable to either tighten properly or take the thing back out.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Plasterboard fixings I'd call them, they'll pull it together, but won't you still have a draught.


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## lgbzone (Oct 8, 2008)

HyFy said:


> Hi
> 
> As promised a picture of the problem AND the chap who did the Habitation Service today came up with what is probably the solution...
> 
> ...


Hi Geoffrey

Personally i don't think i'd use them, they require a certain depth of material and it's possible you may find that once tightened all the way us there could still be a little play. also you still have only four or five fixing points taking all the stress and vibration.

I'd look at bonding it with something, that way the stress is shared along the complete length of where the leading edge mates to the cross member. i'd either use something like a good sikaflex or alternatively; you used to be able to get a tin of thick fibreglass paste for repairing cars (goes off quick then would be ground down before filler was aplied), just mix with hardener then apply, that stuff also sticks like sh1t to a blanket. i would use the plasterboard plugs/bolts you suggest, or rivets, along with the bonding essentially to hold it in place whilst the bonding sets.

Just my thoughts

Lee


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Bridging filler, might just be the thing for this job too Lee.


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## HyFy (Dec 26, 2010)

Okay...

Thanks for your feedback and suggestions.

*Jean-Luc*: Yes, I'd spotted the neck on the 5 and 6 mm ones that I had in stock but I intend to use much smaller ones. I have only met the 5 and 6 mm ones before but my chap at Mercia Mobile Caravans showed me some 4 mm ones with very little neck. I've tested a 5 mm one and it does pull right in to close a 2 mm gap but with the vibration in the engine bay I suspect the hold would not be the best.

*Kev-n-Liz* Yes I agree. I'll either use much smaller ones or use Jean-Luc's idea of a strip of ply. The thing was manufactured to be held together by screws and no filler/sealer so...

lgbzone.[/U][/B] I think I'll try the Chevilles and a ply filler and maybe a flexible sealer - yes - maybe Sikaflex - to help. But "Thanks". If my idea doesn't work I'll be getting out the plastic padding... There were 9 or 10 screws on the original fixing across the cross-member. I would use the same tiny holes to pilot the "Intersets" so I would have 9 or 10 across the width of the vehicle. If that doesn't seem right I can add some more...

The draught across my midriff will be much reduced and in any case the next trip will be in September so a cool draught may be a good thing!!

Thanks for your combined help; chaps and chapesses..

I've just got to find time to get on with the job.

...now that could be the next Thread. How do I find time to fit in the repair/development jobs...

Yours aye

Geoffrey (HyFy)


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