# Swift Quality and Customer Care



## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

It's a great shame that I have to post such a negative report against Swift but in the end I've just had too many problems and not very good service from them to just let it go by the way side. They do have a presence here on this forum but to me there actions do not match their words.

I have a Bessacarr E410 which is just 18mths old, approx 5000 miles on the clock and we've probably only lived in it for about 10 weeks on and off. It's been plagued by problems, some minor some major, since day one. In all its had 2 trips to the dealer for problem fixes and 4 visits to FIAT for problem fixes. These don't include the trips for service and recalls which account for another 2 trips. I now face another 2 trips.

Here's a list of my problems from the beginning and perhaps shows why in the end I tried to solicit Swifts direct help in trying to put my problems to rest once and for all, since hardly a trip goes by without something else going wrong. Not only that it might have helped them in identifying shortcomings in there own processes. Some have been fixed by the dealer, some I've done and some are still outstanding.

1. Rubber Seal around rear door lose.
2. One burner on stove will not stay alight
3. Bed supports broke after second use (3mths for a replacement)
4. Rear Entry Light comes on randomly
5. Floor Access Panel lifts out in transit
6. Heating does not work on timer
7. Hot Water Heater does not work on timer
8. Excessive Sealant around bathroom panels
9. Screw caps broken and some screws to wall cupboards not driven home
10. 240V socket extremely stiff when inserting plug and eventually failed
11. Engine Injector Light kept coming on
12. Overhead ceiling lights are odd colours and still had protective film over them
13. Electric Heater stopped working - eventually came back to life
14. Bathroom top leaking behind panels - and has been since day one but we only just identified why.
15. Kitchen waste trap inlet pipe broke
16. Habitation windows leak when it rains
17. Water tank filler cap does not lock (Swift said they'd send me one but +2mths on and I still don't have it)
18. Seal around rear door is coming lose again
19. Ceiling mounted speaker grill fell out
20. Cab floor is splitting between Cab and Habitation unit.
21. Plastic trims on Cab door pillars keep falling off.
22. Trunking cover behind hob keeps coming off.
23. Gas cylinders cannot be restrained sufficiently and keep coming lose.

I sent the list to Swift and got a curt response that said I should expect some problems and I should take it back to the dealer. I posted an unhappy response to this proposal on this forum and got an immediate call from Swift, which was very welcome. They committed to send an engineer down to fix the problems. He would contact me to discuss the list and arrange a date. It never happened. Instead I got a letter saying once again - take it to a dealer. Note, not a call but a letter - read into that what you will.

However, it seems if I take it to a dealer they will have to assess the problems; then they call Swift who say yes or no; I then take it back and get it fixed - hopefully....But!! The dealer says he can't deal with the FIAT cab floor problem. Swift tell me that I'd have to take this to a FIAT dealer.

So I'm now facing two more trips.

I tried to convince Swift that the FIAT Cab is really a Swift component and I shouldn't have to hawk my MH around to individual component vendors to sort their specific problems out. I don't think this message got through. They seem to think they only sell the habitation unit. Just like Ford, who get you to go back to Bosch when the injector unit has problem - not!!

The stage we are at now is that Swift will send out someone to assess the problems but I'll still have to take it back to a dealer. But then they told me before that an engineer would visit and then withdrew that offer.

I'm dissapointed to say the least. I'll let you know the ending when and if.

Thanks for your patience if you got this far.
Colin


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## carolgavin (May 9, 2005)

Hi it's a shame that you feel so unhappy about Swifts customer service as I know that they were really trying to sort everyone out. Maybe they think the dealer should be capable of fixing everything on your list, I have no idea as don't know what work is involved. I suppose they cannot have every van back at the factory. 
Maybe a PM to Peter to explain your predicament may help, but you well have done this already. I know from experience how frustrating waiting for things to be fixed is. 
I am sure Swift themselves will not be pleased to see that you remain a dissatisfied customer. All the best,
Carol


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Carol.....

I have sent letters to Peter - unanswered by him. I have sent PMs to Swift some of which were answered but again words and actions don't seem to agree.

The really sad thing is that this situation is not unique to Swift. If you follow some of the other threads concerning other manufacturers you can see a similar plot unfold. And not just MHs - just about all aspects of Customer/Manufacturer relations seem to be going down the same road. Once they have your money they're not really concerned about you anymore.

Sad - and makes me more and more cynical all the time. Customer Service is a thing of the past except in my company.  My motto on all my communications is Customer First, Quality Always. Its how I get repeat business.

Colin


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Hi Pixel,

You can always bring your Bessie to us, we don't have a problem with warranty and there is CLS who is authourised to carry out warranty work in the field, however you do not state your location.

As to the Fiat side, Swift cannot neither can we or CLS carry out warranty on a specific VEHICLE warranty, this is standard whatever chassis/cab a MH is built on.

Regards

Peter


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Peter....

Thank you for the offer but I'm based in North Herts. My own dealer is a little closer than you are but still represents a 'day out' for me getting there and back - something I'm trying to avoid, since I thought the warranty was free 

When I've tried contacting dealers closer to home they've not been interested. To be fair to Swift they have found a 'localish' dealer who would take on the work but only after a protracted round of investigation - submit to Swift - come back and have the work done. However, they wont touch the FIAT problems. My own dealer wont either but will at least take it on to get the van to a FIAT dealer near him.

What would you do in this situation? Would you just hand the vehicle back to the customer after doing the Habitation work and tell him that he'll have to get the chassis problems fixed elsewhere - or would you act as an interface to a local FIAT dealer - giving the customer effectively a one stop solution.

I find the situation with regards to MH and Chassis a little strange. I don't think I've come across another case whereby individual components have to be dealt with by the original manufacturer. Warranties to OEMs are normally passed on but dealt with by the final manufacturer. Would Swift/Autotrail or whoever, expect me to deal with Truma for heater problems, Blaupunkt for radio problems and so on. I sincerely hope not.

You can foresee problems arising where the Habitation manufacturer blames the Chassis manufacturer and vice versa, leaving the poor old customer in the middle. This could have happened with my ECU warning light problem but the FIAT dealer was good enough to diagnose the problem and fix it even though it was due to Swifts poor wiring.

Colin


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Hi Pixel,

For us to become a one shop stop and be a Fiat service agent we would have to take on all the local Fiat servicing including all the white vans and in the process inconvenience our MH customers as we would have to fit these vehicles into our workshop schedules.

In addition Fiat are not the easiest of people to get to pay from what we have heard.

We will and do carry out mechanical services to MH's as and when required.

We are a specialist supplier of MH's and have no wish to become involved in the general motor trade in any shape or form whatsoever.

As regards Truma, Dometec and other MH habitation items, we are service agents and deal direct with the manufacturers as regards warranty so there is no problem there.

Radios.............. dare I mention .............. Fiat supplied with the chassis/cab!!

Yes we would liase with the local Fiat Agent on the customers behalf for Fiat warranty and updates.

Regards

Peter


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Peter...

I wasn't suggesting that you actually take on FIAT work - that would be too large an undertaking - merely what you suggest, that the customer brings their vehicle to you and you fix your part and you also take the vehicle to the local FIAT dealer for them to do their bit. That way we as customers only have one point of contact and one trip to make.

Colin


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Pixelpusher said:


> Peter...
> 
> I wasn't suggesting that you actually take on FIAT work - that would be too large an undertaking - merely what you suggest, that the customer brings their vehicle to you and you fix your part and you also take the vehicle to the local FIAT dealer for them to do their bit. That way we as customers only have one point of contact and one trip to make.
> 
> Colin


Hi Colin,

Fair comment but who is going to pay for the time taken by the staff to do it?

Two people, one to drive the MH and one in another vehicle to bring him back and vice versa when the jobs done.

The staff don't work for nothing unfortunately in any business.

Peter


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## camper69 (Aug 30, 2007)

JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> Fair comment but who is going to pay for the time taken by the staff to do it?
> 
> Peter


If you sold the vehicle surely it would be yourselves. As it would mean there was a problem with a part of the motorhome when you sold it. It should be your problem to recover the costs from the manufacturer or within the dealer agreement your have with them.

Derek


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## Rislar (Aug 16, 2008)

camper69 said:


> JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:
> 
> 
> > Fair comment but who is going to pay for the time taken by the staff to do it?
> ...


I think you should read the other posts before repling :roll:


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Completely different aspect *IF* we originally sold the MH, we are discussing generalities on warranty work ad lib not about our service to our own customers.

Regards


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## 94055 (May 1, 2005)

Hi Colin,
Now before any of the anti-Swift brigade jump on my reply to our post :roll: 

Could I just say Swift finish at around 12pm on a Friday and do not return till Monday.

Now that says to me.....you will not get an answer till mid morning on Monday.


That is unless a member of the Swift team answer earlier.

Anyway, we await your reply


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

*Response*

Colin

I am aware of your complaint with Swift and the negative phone calls that are going on between us.

We do not have a retail service. We sell our products through a network of dealers. The dealers carry out the retail service.

However, there are times that we get involved directly to help things get resolved or if the dealer is unable to resolve the issue.

In your particular case, we have said that we will send out a Swift engineer to assess your problems and discuss them with you. This would then allow us to instruct your dealer on the work to be carried out and the parts could be ordered in advance.

I am sorry that you remain so dissatisfied.

Regards
Kath


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

I think that a very fair response from Swift and await cofirmation that they have done what they say.

I think John's Cross MH have exemplifed why a good dealer is worth hanging on to - they are good dealers from what they have said and DO consider their customers. They cannot be expected to tackle the mechanics of the Fiat chassis (or delve deep into the power plant) but will liase with Fiat when needed. There are MANY threads commenting on the support available from Fiat and the way they have tackled a problem reported by numerous contributors, it is not surprising that MH dealers do not want to take their work and risk not getting paid for doing it. Would you?

Keep up the excellent qualities and support reported, it is not universal!


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

> Fair comment but who is going to pay for the time taken by the staff to do it?
> 
> Two people, one to drive the MH and one in another vehicle to bring him back and vice versa when the jobs done.
> 
> The staff don't work for nothing unfortunately in any business.


Sure, your staff don't work for nothing but why is it expected that the poor old customer who is experiencing problems not of his own making should also bare the cost and inconvenience. Right now I would have to do just what you state and if I have to do that in the middle of the week that's time I cannot book my clients.

This just underlines perhaps the poor retail network that MH manufacturers have. I can take my Ford car to any Franchise to have the Warranty issues sorted and I don't have to worry about going to different places for different problems.

Colin


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Kath....

Thank you for your reply. 

I had a previous committment from Swift to send an engineer. I was told he would contact me to discuss the issues and to make sure he had adequate parts to fix what he could. I received no phone call only a letter withdrawing the offer of the engineers visit. In a call to your CS dept. I was told this was due to an engineer not being available for some weeks and it would be quicker to go to a local dealer. I did compromise at this point but made it clear that only if the dealer could fix 100% of my problems in one visit. The dealer could not do this. Hence back to the beggining.

I can only wait and see if an Engineer will call.


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Penguin...

The response from Swift may appear fair but it didn't happen last time they made the commitment.

Colin


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Hi Colin,

I think we are at cross purposes here, I am discussing someone who *DID NOT* purchase their MH from us but has come to us to get some warranty problems resolved.

We, as Swift franchise holders WILL carry out warranty rectification on all Swift products irrespective of where or from whom they were originally purchased, but we cannot run around the countryside to a Fiat service centre using staff who Swift or Fiat will not pay for.

If on the other hand the customer purchased their MH from us originally, then it is an entirely different scenario.

We supplied the MH and at the end of the day, we are responsible, end of story as far as I am concerned.

I trust this clarifies this clarifies the level of service we offer.

Peter


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## christopherobin (Mar 26, 2007)

Hi Colin

I'm sorry that you having problems with your motorhome.

I see by your location "Alpha Centauri" that you are the brightest star.

Then you should know that the only redress is through the dealer that you purchased your motorhome from. Any extra help from Swift is over and above the call of duty. 

Like you, I have been in business for many years and if you went direct to
Sony or Canon they would be polite but would be firm and insist that you went through the shop where you purchased the item. (been there)

Be firm with the motorhome dealer and state your case well.

Good luck
Chris


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## OldWomble (Jul 6, 2008)

I think there are 3 main issues here, 1, Poor service from Dealers (and Manufacturers), 2, A general attitude by Manufacturers that you should expect some problems with your new Motorhome and 3, Getting Warranty work completed properly.

Compared with other EU countries we seem to have a much lower standard of both build quallity and customer service. Why is it that the dealer cannot put right the base vehicle? Most dealers on the continent do!
Why are UK 'vans built to such a low standard in the first place? even the very best ones are only eaqual to what many would call 'entry level' 'vans on the continent!

Maybe the answer is to only buy continental built vans. You get a better 'van, better service and save money!!!


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## 94055 (May 1, 2005)

OldWomble said:


> Why are UK 'vans built to such a low standard in the first place? even the very best ones are only equal to what many would call 'entry level' 'vans on the continent! Maybe the answer is to only buy continental built vans. You get a better 'van, better service and save money!!!


1. Are they? Your opinion, not mine

2. Do you? Not from my experiences.

3. Save money, do you? Again not from my experiences.

We traded a Hymer for a Swift, why? We could not afford the price of a new Hymer and bought the Swift a hell of a lot cheaper.

The complaint is with the Dealer, Swift choose to get involved by choice. I have found Swift to be very responsive, that is if they are able to be.


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Peter....

I understand fully what you are saying and again state that this is a different scenario from other franchised dealerships in other sectors. Again I can take my Ford car anywhere for warranty work. I can take my FIAT based MH anywhere for warranty based work. But it seems that when the habitation unit and chassis of a MH come together they have to go to two seperate places!!

Chris....

Yes, I can and most likely will end up taking my MH back to the original dealer. This is a significant journey both in time and money. True Swift offered some compensation if I used a local based dealer but this still left me with two possible three trips - in my time - to sort out all the problems because the local dealer can't handle the FIAT problems.

I know my dealer will be very helpful.

I chose this time to try and get Swift involved because I felt that they should be aware of the problems their poor quality workmanship and design have caused. They may haved learnt something from this exercise.

As it happens I have tried to get work done directly through manufacturers - Canon for instance - and they have taken this on. My Dell computers get repaired by Dell - in my home. My Sigma lens went back to Sigma for calibration. And there are other instances - but that's not to say all manufacturers will do this - mileage may vary - and small parts are a lot easier to ship around. 

Colin


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## OldWomble (Jul 6, 2008)

SandJ said:


> OldWomble said:
> 
> 
> > Why are UK 'vans built to such a low standard in the first place? even the very best ones are only equal to what many would call 'entry level' 'vans on the continent! Maybe the answer is to only buy continental built vans. You get a better 'van, better service and save money!!!
> ...


As has been said many times before, all comments are our own opinions!
Mine are based on my own *experiences*, nothing less, nothing more!!!


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Pixelpusher said:


> But it seems that when the habitation unit and chassis of a MH come together they have to go to two seperate places


That can indeed be the case, and something which can be clarified quite easily before purchasing.



Pixelpusher said:


> Yes, I can and most likely will end up taking my MH back to the original dealer. This is a significant journey both in time and money


Compared to what? How much time and money did you spend travelling and selecting your motorhome? You presumably decided to buy from this dealer - who you now say is an inordinately long away from you - but did you not anticipate the issue of warranty repairs?



Pixelpusher said:


> True Swift offered some compensation if I used a local based dealer


That sounds like a real attempt at customer service and a solution to me.



Pixelpusher said:


> but this still left me with two possible three trips - in my time - to sort out all the problems


Then why not take the time to take the van to where you know your problems will all be sorted out? 8O



Pixelpusher said:


> I know my dealer will be very helpful


Even bigger 8O



Pixelpusher said:


> I chose this time to try and get Swift involved because I felt that they should be aware of the problems their poor quality workmanship and design have caused


But you've said, *"I've just had too many problems and not very good service from them"* whilst acknowledging that there is a perfectly good dealer in place on Swift's network, who on your own admission will sort your problems out. 8O



Pixelpusher said:


> They may haved learnt something from this exercise


Exercise?



Pixelpusher said:


> My Dell computers get repaired by Dell - in my home


But that's due to Dell's policy, not your pressure.

I have neither axe to grind nor flag to fly with either yourself or Swift. My feeling though based on what you've said here, is that you've perpetuated a lot of your frustration through the way you've chosen to take the matter up with the manufacturer, rather than through their recognised support network. You are of course perfectly entitled to your opinion as to how you think Swift should act or react, but you may be wrong.

Dougie.


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Dougie...

1. With 20/20 hindsight yes. Let this be a lesson to everyone.

2. The choice of dealer was made at the NEC show. They were the nearest to me who were exhibiting. BUT I didn't expect to have to make as many visits to them as has been the case. If the quality was up to spec in the first case it would just be a case of annual services.

3. It is a as you say an attempt at customer service but you are not aware of how much I had to push to get even this small compensation. It was not offered without asking.

4. Read the post again - I will take it back to my original dealer. 

However, the reason was to make Swift aware of all the problems this is causing me. I think the amount of trips I've had to make due to poor quality is too many. The hope was that Swift would have given the vehicle a complete check over, fix the problems and possibly prevent further issues arising, because once the warranty is finished then I am truly liable for all costs.

5. Swift need to be aware of their poor quality record. By the time - and if - the dealers provide any feedback to them it's watered down.

6. The exercise in Customer Relations - you are not aware of all the communications or lack of, I've had with them.

7. Dells policy yes. Fords policy yes. Maybe Swift need to revise their policy but thats up to them, but it can be done.

8. Dougie...my frustration started long before I got to the stage of trying to get Swift involved. Every trip ends with something else breaking or going wrong. It takes the edge off the trip.

Maybe you would be happy with parting with over £30k and having the bed break the second time you use it - bad design - or possibly having engine warning lights come on due to Swifts faulty wiring; or spending an hour or two underneath it in midge infested Scotland trying to fix the broken waste trap - I'm afraid I'm not.

This is my first MH but compared with all the other items I've bought in a life time it has the worst quality record of any other thing I've owned. My caravan only ever had one problem which was a worn O ring on the water pump fitting and it was 5 years old, not 18mths.

However, I am determined not to let this spoil the fun I have from touring - providing nothing else breaks of course 

Colin


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

> but did you not anticipate the issue of warranty repairs?


c'mon Dougie - is the expectation of warranty work high on your list when you buy anything?

Look at the amount of money being spent -what is so difficult about getting it right first time. Other manufacturers charging similar amounts do it -I have commissioned yachts around the 50K mark and when we took the wrapping off they were ready to fill up with food, drink and fuel and use. You don't expect to have to take an RV back and forth to the states for niggly work every few weeks.

While we have MDs with the attitude "we take a delivery van and nail a house to it"!! there will be problems with motorhomes.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Pixelpusher said:


> Maybe you would be happy with parting with over £30k and having the bed break the second time you use it....


I think you can take it as read that no-one here would disagree with that, and the other issues you added. Faced with that though, I would ensure that the dealer carries out his obligations under the warranty which I got with the van. I would only go to the manufacturer if I felt the dealer was obtuse or inept.



Aultymer said:


> c'mon Dougie - is the expectation of warranty work high on your list when you buy anything?


Yes, and consequently I have always avoided putting myself in the position Pixelpusher finds himself in. Not a pontificated comment - just a reply. 

Dougie.


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

Fair cop Dougie!! :wink:


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## citroennut (May 16, 2005)

sounds very similar to a list of faults experienced by a swift suntor in this months mmm p162. if this the case then obviously manufacturing standards quite poor across the range. in these times of credit crunching, now is the time to raise the standards and keep customers.

simon


ps. had a swift corniche caravan many years ago and was very pleased with it, would think twice about buying british/italian these days though. :roll: :lol:


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Dougie...



> Yes, and consequently I have always avoided putting myself in the position Pixelpusher finds himself in


Please tell me how *I* could have avoided all these faults?

Just one more comment for discussion.

It's generally agreed that going back to the original dealer is the best course of action. Of course that implies that you'll be within the same area for the duration of the warranty. Next year I intend to move to Scotland, placing me some 12 hours drive away from the dealer.

How do full timers cope?

Colin


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Pixelpusher said:


> Please tell me how *I[/B[ could have avoided all these faults? *


*
That wasn't my point, so I can't say. It was the expectation of warranty work which I said is high on my list when I buy anything, which I said has managed to avoid the situation the OP finds himself in, i.e. frustration with having to apparently drive distances to get the warranty work done.

Dougie.*


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## MaxandPaddy (Mar 18, 2006)

You have my complete and utter sympathy Colin.

Our Autocruise Motorhome has been returned to our dealer again this morning for the ninth time since we took delivery of it in December 2007.

We have just spent nearly two hours in rush hour traffic and my husband will be very late for work!

It has also been back to the Peugeot dealer four times!

It has had a catalogue of faults some serious,some not.

We have received a token sum from Autocruise/Swift as compensation for our mileage to and from the dealer and for campsites we have had to cancel as this Motorhome has spent weeks in the dealership.

Now we did select the most local dealer to us but we did not anticipate having to return it so often,who would expect so many problems when purchasing?

We have had contact with the Swift and Autocruise team some of it positive,some of it not.

We are now totally disillusioned with the Motorhome industry as a whole,both manufacturers and dealer (wish we had bought from Johns Cross but you are too far away!!) and we would never purchase another Motorhome.

As much as we enjoy it the whole experience has just been far too much hassle and we should not be still experiencing the problems we are having so far down the line.

To put the icing on the cake,we were speaking to the guy who sold us the Motorhome on the dealers stand at Pickering and his comment was "you should have rejected it" as he walked away from us with a grin on his face!

I put a call in to the MD of the dealership to see if he could offer any support in ironing out the faults with the vehicle and has he called me back?
I think you can guess what the answer to that is!

I think to have to take it back to the dealer yet again is a reflection of the poor quality of manufacture and lack of care from the dealer but that is just my humble opinion as the customer.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Pixelpusher said:


> Just one more comment for discussion.
> 
> It's generally agreed that going back to the original dealer is the best course of action.
> Colin


Hi Colin

Good point made here, and worth a further thought for the benefit of others maybe . . . though it won't help you at all I fear.  

I can never understand why a Cornishman will go to a show and buy a motorhome from a dealer in Scapa Flow, just to save twenty quid on the deal! 8O 8O 8O

It happens quite often, as is evidenced by the frequent posts on here about having to make long journeys for warranty work.

As you said (in a bit I didn't select) if you move house that's an entirely different matter, but doesn't it make sense to buy from a fairly adjacent dealer . . . . . especially as we all know it's "_*when*_" rather than "_*if*_" we will have to go back to get things put right??

_(Fixed your bold emphasis BTW)_


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Dougie....

I still think you are missing the point. Would you be happy with this number of faults requiring a considerable number of trips to your dealer - however near or far they are.


My frustations is coming from two directions:-

1. This level of faults is unacceptable to me. It doesn't bode well for the future of my vehicle.

2. Swifts reaction to my request - note, not demand - for them to take a personal interest in looking at my problems. Inconvenience to me was only one factor in my request - not the driving factor (pun intended).

Colin


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Dave....

Your point is well taken but in my case the local dealer did not inspire any confidence in me in respect of Motorhomes, despite the fact that I bought my Caravan from them. I bought off the stand at the NEC from the nearest dealer to me. Their deal wasn't just a saving of a few quid but several hundred based on the trade in value of my Caravan and compared to what my local dealer was offering.

The local dealer that Swift recommend for sorting my problems out doesn't sell Motorhomes.

Colin


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Maxandpaddy.....

Likewise I extend my sympathies to you. What a dilema this leaves us with!! I have no intention of changing my Swift MH and even if I did what guarantee would I have that any other make is going to be less of a problem.

Now, these following comments are not directed at Swift or Autocruise but I see a general trend in many sectors that is de-emphasing quality and customer service in favour of lower cost and bigger profits. I noticed this trend when I lived 'across the pond' and I now see that its made its way here.

I also think there is a sector of the general public that is somewhat apathetic to these issues which is why companies continue to get away with it.

Good luck and try not to let it spoil the tremendous pleasure that can be had from the open road.

Colin


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## MaxandPaddy (Mar 18, 2006)

Hi Colin,
We have had sleepless nights,numerous conversations with the dealer and manufacturer and at the end of the day,like you,we just want it putting right!

It has been suggested that we consider changing it but we do actually like the Starblazer and we have had some fantastic trips away in it!

Our first Motorhome was a 2006 Autocruise Starfire that was perfect,not an ounce of trouble and it sold whilst we were at the dealers picking up our new one!

We have made the decision not to buy another Motorhome,this is our final association with the Motorhome trade.

It probably will not make a bit of difference to the dealer or the manufacturer but if they do not pull themselves up by their bootstraps then I think they may find other people voting with their feet!

You know what they say
*"Business goes where it is invited and stays where it is welcome"*

Well we do not feel very welcome at the moment!

Likewise Colin I hope you get your problems solved,I do understand that it is very frustrating to have to return a Motorhome to be repaired,our dealer is only 14miles away but it is still a pain!

Val


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

> I can never understand why a Cornishman will go to a show and buy a motorhome from a dealer in Scapa Flow, *just to save twenty quid on the deal! *


I'm sure no-one would disagree there Dave-particulalrly with the phrase you use which I've emboldened.

There's many reasons why purchasers buy Motorhomes from dealers distanced from home-and I'm not sure colin has suggested that in his case it was to save money.

In our case the exact vehicle we wanted, with all boxes ticked, could only be purchased from one importer, on the South Coast.

So we could have decided not to have it but to accept "second best" (for us) "just in case there are Warranty problems". I can't think of any other product you'd buy where you'd use that as a consideration-you'd be entitled to assume you're buying a quality product which wouldn't necessitate constant visits to, and dialogue with, the Dealer.

I think Colin, Max and Paddy were entitled to believe this when they shelled out their hard-earned and the number of faults they quote is not acceptable....wherever their Dealer may be located.

Now I know it's not intended.... but any hint at all, however much Implied rather then Explicit, of "well it's your own fault for not buying from a dealer close-by....you should have anticipated problems when you bought it..." is a little unfair.

In our case, with 3K miles on the clock, and after nearly 4 months, we have all fingers, toes, and other extremities crossed....and so far we are more than happy with the purchase, the only time we have had to contact the dealer is to get a copy of a manual and an extra key. :lol: :lol:

But when I see what Colin, Max & Paddy are goingt hrough there's a touch of "there but for the grace of God......" :roll:


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Telbell said:


> Now I know it's not intended.... but any hint at all, however much Implied rather then Explicit, of "well it's your own fault for not buying from a dealer close-by....you should have anticipated problems when you bought it..." is a little unfair.


*Quite correct Tel - it was certainly not meant to be unfair in any way.*  

I was generalising a bit too much perhaps, and accept of course that there are individual circumstances which make distant purchases either desirable, unavoidable, or both. 

I'm sure you will agree however, that at least *some *people seem driven to buy *the cheapest*, with little forethought about possible future consequences. (This does not apply only to motorhomes either!)

I was really only adding to the point raised by Colin, in order to highlight something for future purchasers to ponder.

As I said, _"Good point made here, and worth a further thought for the benefit of others maybe . . . "._

_*(Must try to express my self more clearly. Self-flagellation begins at once!! )  8O *_


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

> Self-flagellation begins at once!! )


I see a "lol" there! you enjoy it then? :wink: Say no more!

Of course I know "unfairness" wasn't intended! Thought I'd cry out on behalf of some sections of the purchasing fraternity though :lol:


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

> (Must try to express my self more clearly. Self-flagellation begins at once!! )


oooooh ! can I watch?


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## OldWomble (Jul 6, 2008)

A slight 'aside' here but why do UK built 'vans come with all these faults in the first place. Is it shoddy workmanship, shoddy quality control, shoddy dealers or what? It is obviously shoddy something!!!


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## MaxandPaddy (Mar 18, 2006)

I wish I knew the answer to that OldWomble!

Good service and workmanship should be expected,but it seems we have to applaud it if we receive some!

I often ask myself why the dealers don't give the manufacturers some stick and tell them it is not good enough for their customers to be constantly having to return faulty Motorhomes?

In my case I can say hand on heart it is shoddy workmanship,shoddy quality control and a shoddy dealer!

I have the hat trick!


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## 111728 (Apr 28, 2008)

Is it shoddy..........no.

It is the obsession of changing your models yearly without thoroughly testing them in development.

If you are happy to buy a model designed ten years ago and first put into production six year ago and was unchanged in any of that time. It would be virtually perfect.

You and me the customer, drive the change! Plus the consequential problems with that yearly change.

Do not bleat on about, what about this and what about that. The only way to get consistant quality is to design it and test it in, in the first place and then make them until such time you can afford (as a manufacturer) To redevelop them again.

My own experience as a vehicle manufacturers development engineer!


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

MaxandPaddy said:


> You know what they say
> *"Business goes where it is invited and stays where it is welcome"*
> Val


Could'nt agree more with that comment.

Peter


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## OldWomble (Jul 6, 2008)

saracen said:


> Is it shoddy..........no.
> 
> It is the obsession of changing your models yearly without thoroughly testing them in development.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry saracen, but thats not a valid excuse. We are often talking here about the kind of faults that appear time and time again. Faults that should never happen because tried and tested components are in use. For example; a waste water pipe that fell apart because the manufacture had not used any adhesive in the joint. A leak in the seal between two panels due to the mastic being poorly applied during construction. Fuses continually blowing because a wire had been trapped between two metal components during contruction. Just a few examples and I am sure there are many more like it. These are all down to shoddy work at the factory!!!


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## MaxandPaddy (Mar 18, 2006)

Saracen you have lost me!
I consider serious electrical problems,suspension problems,alloys that are not up to the weight of the vehicle,locker doors dropping off,decals peeling off,steadies that are too long to be used,light fittings that need to be replaced a boiler that is burning out the element and melting the fuse holder and more is an indication of shoddy workmanship!
I am not bleating on about it,I am past that stage because I realised a long time ago that I paid my money and I took my chance.
Just hope other prospective purchasers may avoid the pitfalls of the buying process!


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

The plot that companies in general seem to have lost, in my opinion, is that Quality is more expensive to build in the further down the line you go - and certainly once its gone out of the door.

From my very limited experience of one MH I would say there are two aspects that need consideration. Design and Build.

Some of the Design aspects whilst looking very nice are questionable in their implementation. I do accept that there are limitations of Weight, Cost, Safety and Regulations that come into play but some of the design features I've seen where doomed from the start - my bed breaking for instance.

As for build quality, you need a motivated, quality minded workforce and good checks to ensure that the vehicles are shipped in excellent order. Excessive sealant, screw caps missing, screws not driven home etc. And please lets not talk about PDIs by the dealer. They should simply not be delivered with faults already in existence.

Colin


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

I think the chief designer should be forced to live in each prototype for a week before even thinking about putting it into production.

It may not help with shoddy workmanship, but a good few glaring design faults would be put right - and pretty damn quick if Mrs Designer had to go along as well!!!! :roll: :roll:


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

*Customer Care*

Maybe we shouldnt have joined this forum like many in the industry have said to me BUT I do believe our participation is good for us and I hope many forum members like the contact even if it is to stick the knife in!!!!! In general we satisfy most of our customers but unfortunately we cannot satisfy everybody.I am sorry we are not perfect like the Germans (NOT) we are normal people trying to run a business we make mistakes, we change things each year we get let down by suppliers by some of our Dealers do we try and pass the buck no we take it on the chin! You are all helping to make us better because we care about what is said on this forum BUT it is a fact we will not satisfy everyone SORRY. Peter.


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Pixelpusher said:


> As for build quality, you need a motivated, quality minded workforce and good checks to ensure that the vehicles are shipped in excellent order. Excessive sealant, screw caps missing, screws not driven home etc. And please lets not talk *about PDIs by the dealer.* They should simply not be delivered with faults already in existence.
> Colin


We are all humans, MH's are built by people who can have an 'off day' or are destracted by something at that partcular moment.

Even with an extensive PDI at the factory, it is far better to have a Dealer PDI who is looking at it with new eyes. who should pick up defects.

What works at the factory, may not work after it arrives at a dealership.

Peter


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: Customer Care*



SwiftGroup said:


> Maybe we shouldnt have joined this forum


WRONG 
By far the majority of Swift owners (and others) are very pleased and grateful that you have, and I'm sure would want you to remain here.



SwiftGroup said:


> In general we satisfy most of our customers but unfortunately we cannot satisfy everybody.I am sorry we are not perfect *like the Germans (NOT)* we are normal people trying to run a business we make mistakes.


CORRECT
There seems to be a myth that all non-British vans leave the factory perfect in every detail.

On our recent Mosel trip we got chatty with an official in the "Hymer Club of GB" or something similar, and he told a very different story. _"They used to be excellent"_ he said, _"but recently the quality control has gone down a lot, and if you have a fault that needs a part from Germany it can take weeks to get it."_

(Don't anybody shout at me - I'm just quoting here!!!!)



SwiftGroup said:


> We change things each year we get let down by suppliers by some of our Dealers do we try and pass the buck no we take it on the chin! You are all helping to make us better because we care about what is said on this forum BUT it is a fact we will not satisfy everyone SORRY. Peter.


Good enough for me Peter, and I don't even own a Swift.

Keep taking the tablets - most people do appreciate your input!!


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Peter....

Your approach to Continuous Improvement is to be acknowledged and yes, you can't win them all! But - (there's always a but) - some of your improved processes will come about as a result of frustration, inconvenience and cost to current owners.

No doubt future models will be improved as a result of our painful experiences but I cannot afford to upgrade periodically and shouldn't have to. Telling us we are helping making you (Swift) better, doesn't really help me now. Future customers and Swift appear to benefit at our cost.

Keep wearing the flak jacket, Peter.

Colin


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

*Customer care*



Pixelpusher said:


> Peter....
> 
> Your approach to Continuous Improvement is to be acknowledged and yes, you can't win them all! But - (there's always a but) - some of your improved processes will come about as a result of frustration, inconvenience and cost to current owners.
> 
> ...


Colin,I do understand your frustration and I understand we are trying to help you? Maybe not how you would want so I suggest Kath or Amy give you a call and lets see what can be done? Regarding moving to Scotland you should be able to have your servicing and warranty done by the local dealer.Peter.


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## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

taking part in a large niche forum such as MHF has its benefits to Traders / Manufacturers but alongside that are also the downsides, brand visibility especially when not many others have taken such an active role can lead to you feeling like you are swimming against the flow but in the long term it provides for a much better "warm feeling" for the end user 

Slowly but surely more and more "Trade" are joining MHF publically, still no other continental manufacturers are here "publically" and few Brit Manufacturers and none of them have such a public relationship with the members as Swift do and long may they continue, my only hope is that slowly but surely more Dealers / Manufacturers learn to love MHF


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## MaxandPaddy (Mar 18, 2006)

Peter,
It is not my intention to stick the knife in, you are aware of our ongoing problems and will appreciate that has not been my approach to the situation.

I agree if you make yourself available to the forum then you have to take it on the chin and I am sure you appreciate that some of us are quite dissatisfied with the product and service we have received.

I am not making unfounded or unfair remarks,I am just stating the facts and I am sure you must have empathy for me as our plight to have our Motorhome in full working order seems to be evading us.

Lets hope this current problem is solved this week and then I can put the knives away :wink: !

Val


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

*Customer care*

Third time lucky????? Colin, as I understand it we are trying to help you maybe not to your satisfaction? So I suggest Kath or Amy call you to see what can be done but both sides have to be reasonable? If you move to Scotland than you should be able to have service or warranty done by a local Dealer and this we would insist on.Peter.


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## andyangyh (May 1, 2005)

Must admit I would be much more liable to buy a Swift in future because of their willingness to enter debate here. No-one gets everything right every time. The people I continue to deal with are the ones that understand after-sales service. That includes listening to complaints. Keep posting Peter.


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

*Autocruise*



MaxandPaddy said:


> Peter,
> It is not my intention to stick the knife in, you are aware of our ongoing problems and will appreciate that has not been my approach to the situation.
> 
> I agree if you make yourself available to the forum then you have to take it on the chin and I am sure you appreciate that some of us are quite dissatisfied with the product and service we have received.
> ...


Hello Val,I wasnt refering to you really but to one or two others who love to see me on the rack!!! Your issues were a little different as we had only just taken over Autocruise and things were in a mess the wheel specs were wrong etc etc. We have tried to help again maybe not to your satisfaction but we will go on trying. We are trying to do our best if that is not good enough you will tell us and we will try again.Peter.


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## averhamdave (May 21, 2005)

I have posted voicing concerns about Swift build quality before.

It is my opinion that their product leaves the factory with a larger number of defects per unit than any other manufacturer.

HOWEVER I am currently contemplating a Kon-Tiki purchase next year. The reason is that whilst I know it will have faults, I believe that Swift will sort it and when they have I will have a very nice motorhome. If, however, the Swift MD leaves this forum, forget it.

My Autotrail is still waiting atention to its (10) stress fractures 4 months after being reported by my Autotrail approved service agents.


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## 94055 (May 1, 2005)

*Re: Customer Care*



SwiftGroup said:


> Maybe we shouldnt have joined this forum like many in the industry have said to me BUT I do believe our participation is good for us and I hope many forum members like the contact even if it is to stick the knife in!!!!! In general we satisfy most of our customers but unfortunately we cannot satisfy everybody.I am sorry we are not perfect like the Germans (NOT) we are normal people trying to run a business we make mistakes, we change things each year we get let down by suppliers by some of our Dealers do we try and pass the buck no we take it on the chin! You are all helping to make us better because we care about what is said on this forum BUT it is a fact we will not satisfy everyone SORRY. Peter.


Peter,

A lot of us are glad you have joined the site and long may it continue, I just wish some members would stop trying to hijack every Swift thread.

Keep up the good work and please continue with the improvements.

As to some of the posters
We do have threads for your own specific brands you know (Autocruise). But I suppose your argument will be, "Swift are the Manufacturers". 
Yes they are but, the same as with some other marks, you have your own specific folder. 
If not like Eriba (Hymer) then ask for your own folder.

Just my opinion I know, but i want to see Swift specific posts in a Swift folder.

IMO

Fiat should have a tab for themselves, then the fiat posts would not be in Swift.

We can but dream

Steve and Jan


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## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

> Fiat should have a tab for themselves, then the fiat posts would not be in Swift.


Good idea and one that I thought was already implemented tbh

However it is now 

See seperate sub forums below Base Chassis forum here
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/forum-19.html


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: Customer Care*



SandJ said:


> We can but dream


Wakened up yet? :wink:

Dougie.


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## Kelcat (Apr 20, 2008)

Peter - take heart from the fact that you know that Swift are improving & that you & your staff offer the best you can. No matter how hard you try individually there will always be occassions when a third party lets you down or you simply make a mistake.
Nowadays many customers seem to have lost touch with the fact that a business must operate in a little known place called "The Real World". I for one applaud that your company has not only found a method of communicating with the end user - but also that you use it. As said before I'm sure that there are many other dealers & possibly some manufacturers that read MHF but choose not to participate.


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Peter....

Thank you for your reply. I will await a call from Kath or Amy.

Maybe you don't want to be drawn into this next debate but why is it that Swift and probably others, seem to want to drop all responsibility for the FIAT component of the MH? This component was chosen by Swift and is an integral part of the MH. Yet whenever there is a problem we seem to be divided between two manufacturers - Swift and Fiat.

For habitation problems go to a Swift Dealer. For chassis problems go to a FIAT dealer. The scenario may arise when the problem is bounced between both because neither wants to incur the cost of finding and fixing the problem. I managed to escape this situation because the FIAT dealer was concentious enough to fix the problem - but not without telling me that Swift should really be doing the work.

How did you decide on using FIAT and what testing and research was done to ensure its viability? The water ingress problem was noticed early on as was the judder problem. Did these issues not arise when the unit was being tested by Swift?

Colin


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## MaxandPaddy (Mar 18, 2006)

I fully appreciate that Autocruise has its own folder!
However it has also been noted that Autocruise is part of the same group and at the end of the day the comments and complaints are all filtered through the same team (in my experience).

I am also fully aware that there are many satisfied customers and excellent dealers in the marketplace and that the Swift group is held in high esteem by many.

It is not my intention to be rude or confrontational on this forum but Pixelpusher raised his issues relating to his faulty vehicle and I empathise with him completely as I am in the some boat,be it Swift or Autocruise,the source of supply is the same.I purchased my Autocruise after October 3rd 2007 so my vehicle was supplied by the Swift Group.

Finally I am very much in touch with the real world,I am fully aware of how business operates having spent many years operating in a marketplace where customer service and product quality is paramount.

Yes things can go wrong but please understand we have had execptional problems that are still unresolved and we have the right to expect the product we purchased to be of satisfactory quality,there is nothing unreasonable about that.
The fact that Swift monitor and participate on this forum is a good thing and shows that they have their ear to the ground not only for complaints but to monitor market trends and so on.
So please do understand that some of us have experienced some major problems with our Motorhomes and our expectations are not too high,we are not grumbling for the sake of it or carping on because we can,we just want our problems solved so we can be happy and satisfied customers :lol: .

Val


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Pixelpusher said:


> Yet whenever there is a problem we seem to be divided between two manufacturers - Swift and Fiat.
> Colin


You are confusing me here Colin. :?

Surely you are not suggesting that Swift (or any other motorhome manufacturer) should have the specialist knowledge, skills and facilities to fix chassis, engine, running gear and whatever else may be wrong with the base vehicle??

_(Or vice versa for that matter!)_

Unless I'm missing the point you are making, the quoted scenario seems utterly unavoidable? :? :?


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

*Fiat*



Pixelpusher said:


> Peter....
> 
> Thank you for your reply. I will await a call from Kath or Amy.
> 
> ...


In reality Colin there are only two chassis that we can build on in volume and that is Fiat or Peugeot.Mercedes are too expensive and dont offer the range of engines and chassis lengths the same goes really with Renault and Ford.Fiat have had their problems but I am sure you will agree that driving the Fiat it is a great vehicle but for the stupid teething problems I am sure we would all be generally happy? I agree it is a bit of a buggars muddle when it comes to servicing with only a few dealers that can do the habitation and chassis I dont know how this can be easily resolved other than the customer being careful who he buys from and ensures that proper servicing and customer care is in place.Buying on price is a dangerous game because the Dealer is giving his margin away and this is the margin we give him to do a thorough PDI and for him to make a profit which he may use to facilitate the part exchange etc. Colin I will stop now as I want to be sure this message posts but I am quite prepared to enter in further dialogue but I am trying to run a business in the most difficult climate that I have experienced.Regards Peter.


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Dave....

I'm not suggestioning that Swift need to have all the knowledge and equipment to full support the FIAT chassis. That isn't necessary. What I would like is just a 'one stop solution' rather than ME having to deal with two different organisations. After all I don't have to go to Truma to have a heater problem fixed - or do I??

Please don't mention - take it back to your original dealer - that isn't always an option.

I repeat my previous case - what happens if there is a problem between the interface of the two units. Who do I go to? Who will take on the work?

Colin


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Pixelpusher said:


> Dave....
> 
> I'm not suggestioning that Swift need to have all the knowledge and equipment to full support the FIAT chassis. That isn't necessary. What I would like is just a 'one stop solution' rather than ME having to deal with two different organisations. *After all I don't have to go to Truma to have a heater problem fixed - or do I??*
> 
> ...


See what you are saying Colin, and it would certainly be great if it was feasible, but I doubt if it ever will be . . . . economically at any rate (for the dealers). :? :?

As for your example of the Truma heater, I think the only reason you don't have to go back to Truma is because it is small and easily detachable, and can be replaced with another complete unit by the dealer. If it wasn't and there was a major problem, I bet it would mean a trip to a Truma service centre!! :roll: :roll:

I don't think there can be an easy answer to the problem, or someone would have seized it by now as a great business opportunity. They would only need to read a few threads on here to realise there is a call for "one-stop shopping" when your motorhome is poorly! :?


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## 111728 (Apr 28, 2008)

I am surprised I lost a few of you, or your train of thought.

All the manufacturers are victims to our demands. That is we want change, and change for the sake of change.

One poster wanted the designers to spend a week in a prototype...Well that is a total waste of time and pathetic. These components need to be fully tested on test bed to huge volume cycles. Not just fitted because they are new or pretty. 

The leisure industry fit components supplied by their suppliers that have not been fully tested.

The problems that one poster experienced is typical of manufacturers changing their production technique or process due to the high frequency of model derivatives. If they had less models and higher production of fewer models. Then there would be less defects, either product or build.

I am not criticising this manufacturer, if anything, I am sympathising. You cannot expect the quality you receive from a huge industry like the vehicle manufacturers (who still get it wrong). From a low volume-high model range manufacturing process that is in this industry.

Your expectations are higher then the reality can deliver. It is simple engineering. I am sure they do try to the best of their ability. My experience tells me that i have to 'accept' the status quo. Others just get demoralised with what they receive.

I am not here to create enemies, just state how it is.


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

saracen said:


> The leisure industry fit components supplied by their suppliers that have not been fully tested.


Do you mean tested as a product range, or tested as individual units?

If the former, then I think you're wrong. All the (standard) subassemblies in my motorhome are well-proven products, and perform well.

If the latter, then I would be surprised if you were right. I can't imagine any products going out of the factory door without a test.

Where the problem might lie is when the motorhome convertor installs the units - they may not be suitable for the job, they may not be installed correctly, or they may be damaged during installation. They could even be damaged by the customer. I would hope that any motorhome manufacturer would test all of the systems before they went out of the factory and were delivered to the dealer. With such a high-value product, I would have thought a half-day run through would have been beneficial.

I'm not pointing fingers at any manufacturer, but just joining in a general discussion. Sorry, Steve (SandJ) - not strictly on Swift topic.

Some of your other points are well made, Saracen.

Gerald


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## Kelcat (Apr 20, 2008)

I understand the issues Colin raises - but I think the solutions are simply not there.
The MH industry is an industry (apart from the A Class stuff) where the customer knows they are purchasing an item that clearly is in 2 parts - as such, provided the dealer explained this aspect of warranty (as mine did) to a purchaser at the time of purchase then the customer knows what they're buying & what it's limitations are in regard to warranty work. (as an aside MHer's are relativly lucky in this respect - if you take the car industry as a comparison - try getting warranty work done on a vehicle you've heavily '[email protected]).
These issues also show the benefit of using a local firm / dealer. If the customer chooses to use a company from far afield then they should factor future costs into their purchaisng decision. Part of our decision to buy a Merc based MH was that we have an excellent local Merc commercials dealer nearby who we know & who will do the vehicle work, it also helped that the MH dealer is relativly close (40 miles). I appreciate that not everyone can be close to a good dealer - however local can often have alot a cost & enjoyment benefits that people overlook.


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

> Your expectations are higher then the reality can deliver. It is simple engineering. I am sure they do try to the best of their ability. My experience tells me that i have to 'accept' the status quo. Others just get demoralised with what they receive.


I'm sorry but I find the apathetic approach of 'accepting the status quo' is playing directly into the hands of companies who do not care about quality or customer service. Its why so many aspects of our life are plagued with problems. It's why so many products are cheap and don't last.

When you buy a product do you honestly say to yourself - well it may develop a lot of faults within 18mths but hey I only paid £30K for it and I should have expected that?

Do you believe that manufacturers give a 3yr warranty because they know problems will occur (well actually Swift wrote to me saying they do)? They provide warranties based on the knowledge that very few instances may occur where the warranty needs to be invoked. Otherwise that just eats into profits. If they are seeing many warranty claims then quality needs to be improved not left 'as is'.

Colin


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Pixelpusher said:


> After all I don't have to go to Truma to have a heater problem fixed - or do I??
> Colin


In theory you do if your dealer is not an appointed Service Agent for Truma if it is a warranty issue.

Peter


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

I agree with Colin this piecemeal attitude to expensive products is not on. Suppliers/manufacturer's of motorhomes should be responsible for the whole product. Largely it is they who make the engineering and/or commercial decisions to buy this or that base vehicle or this or that heater (for example) and they should back up their judgement.

At the very least they need to do the PDI properly before they start cutting it about or attaching bits.


If your Fiat engine goes bang do Fiat send you down the road to Ford to complain because some fiat engine components are made by Ford?


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Kelcat.....

You raise and interesting point. It was not made clear to me on the Swift stand at the NEC, nor by the subsequent dealer of my choice that in fact there were two seperate warranties needing individual consideration.

True it was stated that there was a 3yr Warranty on the Habitation Unit and also a 3yr Warranty on the Chassis, but this did not trigger in me a 'flag; that said 'Hang on you'll have to deal with two seperate organisations'.

A lesson learnt!!

Colin


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Zebedee said:


> I don't think there can be an easy answer to the problem, or someone would have seized it by now as a great business opportunity. They would only need to read a few threads on here to realise there is a call for *"one-stop shopping" when your motorhome is poorly! :? *


We would have no objection providing the *Fiat side was restricted to MH's ONLY and Fiat PAID promptly without arguing the toss.*

We have been maintaining MH's both mechanically and habitation wise ever since we started business with well equipped workshops and technically qualified staff.

Its nothing new to us, what we do not want is being flooded with other Fiats, cars, vans etc to the detriment of our MH customers.

Peter


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

saracen said:


> I am not here to create enemies, just state how it is.


That's good to hear then! 



saracen said:


> One poster wanted the designers to spend a week in a prototype...Well that is a total waste of time and pathetic. These components need to be fully tested on test bed to huge volume cycles. Not just fitted because they are new or pretty.


Thanks for the compliment. :? :?

Read the post again. It is obviously partly tongue-in-cheek (the reference to Mrs Designer gives the clue :roll: )

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-494760.html#494760

Not entirely pathetic however, as (for example) the touch screen main control panel on our new van would not have been mounted at a height of 6' 4" above the floor, and directly under a skylight . . . . . where most women and a good few men could neither reach it nor read what it said because of the glare from the skylight.

Needless to say the panel is no longer fitted in that position, due entirely to customer feedback, but it was a glaring error that would certainly have been noticed immediately (by Mrs Designer! 8O ) if the prototype had been used for a day or two!

You have not made an enemy of me Saracen, but making offensive comments like that is not the best way to make friends and influence people!!


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Personally I think its an excellent idea for a prototype to be thoroughly tested and how do we know manufacturers do not do that anyway.

A month being driven round the country plus a few days being driven over a test track with a cobbled surface would sort some of the wrinkles out especially on the habiation furniture side.

Peter


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## 111728 (Apr 28, 2008)

Colin

I think you misunderstand my statement. I hired a brand new 32' Winnebago in Fresno for 5 weeks. 12 miles on the clock when I received it. After 5 weeks of use, it was in pieces.

I was shocked. The dealer (who rents) said to me that the vehicle has to be commissioned first. Once it has been commissioned and we rectify any issues. It will be fine thereafter.

I flew home thinking about that term 'commissioned' It is a term used in the marine industry in this country after and during the purchase of a boat. A lot of the issues that develop cannot be engineered out. Once they are identified and rectified, they appear to disappear.

They occur because the way the vehicles are built. I do not like the fact that we can pay £30K, £40K, or more and find defects. But it happens.

Why? because it is the nature of the product and its manufactring process. I personally think it is wrong. But it does not change the fact why?

Gerald, your posting. I believe that not enough individual testing of product or the product in their sub assemblies 'under normal working conditions' are performed. Not testing once they have been fitted. If the products were tested at full life cycles in their installation, less frequency of faults would occur.

Sorry if I upset you guys.


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> Pixelpusher said:
> 
> 
> > After all I don't have to go to Truma to have a heater problem fixed - or do I??
> ...


I find this comment unbelievable. Surely, if the Truma is fitted in a motorhome and the dealer who sold it to the customer is an agent for that motorhome's manufacturer and it is under warranty then it is the dealer's responsibility to get it fixed.

Am I the only person here who understand Colin's (Pixelpusher's ) point?
Or do I not?

He has a problem with his new xxx motorhome: he takes it to the motorhome dealer with a problem: the dealer says, " It is nothing to do with the xxx conversion it is the yyy base vehicle you'll have to take it to them. Colin wants the dealer to take responsibility for fixing it and get the yyy dealer involved if necessary. In the example quoted the problem turned out to be caused during the building of the xxx motorhome, but the yyy dealer fixed it for him. The xxx dealer should have progressed the fault investigation using the help of the yyy dealer if necessary until the problem was resolved. The xxx dealer does not have to have the staff to fix the yyy base vehicle but he should take responsibility for it.

Gaasp!

Harvey


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> Personally I think its an excellent idea for a prototype to be thoroughly tested and how do we know manufacturers do not do that anyway.
> 
> A month being driven round the country plus a few days being driven over a test track with a cobbled surface would sort some of the wrinkles out especially on the habiation furniture side.
> 
> Peter


Hi Peter

Somebody agrees with me anyway!!  

In this case I have met and chatted to the chief designer, about the positioning of that panel.

He is as tall as me (6' 3") and admitted that he had never given the reflected glare problem a thought (nor the height), as all the prototype build had been done in the workshop where the overhead lighting was less harsh than outdoors in the sunshine (if you can remember what that's like!!)

I did actually suggest to him that he or someone should live in it for a week before taking it back into the factory to fix the unforseen little boo boos that are almost inevitable. _"Even the chief designer can't be expected to foresee and anticipate every little snag"_ I said, _"but a lot of them show up very quickly when the van is actually in use."_

He was underwhelmed by the suggestion, and changed the subject quite rapidly. :roll: 8O


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Saracen....

I'm used to the term Commissioning. Complicated systems when installed often need this BUT its usually done before handover to the customer and not at the customers expense. Neither should it be left for the customer to find the faults.

Colin


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## 111728 (Apr 28, 2008)

pixelpusher-totally agree. But what is the solution- My idea of full life cycle testing of all the components and their sub-assemblies prior to the production commencing!


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

*Testing*



JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> Personally I think its an excellent idea for a prototype to be thoroughly tested and how do we know manufacturers do not do that anyway.
> 
> A month being driven round the country plus a few days being driven over a test track with a cobbled surface would sort some of the wrinkles out especially on the habiation furniture side.
> 
> Peter


Peter,it is not as easy as it seems! Before we launched the Bollero we took the Prototype to the Millbrook testing ground and did a 6year durability test and we still had problems with it. I am convinced coupled with the testing you cant beat feedback from customers.Peter.


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## Kelcat (Apr 20, 2008)

Thanks alot Harvey - after years of telling my wife that algebra servers no purpose in my life you post that! :lol: 

I personally believe that in Colin's example the problem lies with the dealer - that is who Colin has a warranty with (unless I'm mistaken?) - that the warranty then subdivides is really the dealers issue not Colin's - unless there is a contract the states otherwise. I believe Coiln has gone to Swift / Fiat to try & speed up the process or get a better resolution - however I think this again highlights a dealer issue. Elsewhere on MHF there is a post today about a dealer who drove 60 miles each way to collect a van under warranty (indeed my dealer offered same - but I have family close to the dealer). I would be inclined to take the MH to the dealer & let him run it around the country at his cost.


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## Mikemoss (Sep 5, 2005)

Some really interesting points being raised here re warranties and servicing. I've always bought second-hand so I guess my understanding of how these things work has been coloured by that. In short, I view my motorhome in several parts: 1 the cab (Fiat) which I take to a normal vehicle garage for servicing and MoT. 2 the chassis (AlKo) which went to the AlKo place in the Midlands for a safety belt upgrade which Swift organised and paid for on my behalf. 3 the habitation part which is the bit that I see Swift having the greatest responsibility for, and which I get services at a caravan/motorhome dealers workshop.

All the bits and pieces inside the habitation area, such as heater, water heater, fridge etc, get checked and replaced as necessary by a caravan/motorhome workshop (not that any have needed it so far, touch wood).

Ultimately, I see Swift as assemblers of the complete package, and not as manufacturers per se (sorry if I'm doing you a disservice there, Peter and colleagues). The purely Swift bits in our Bessie are the habitation bodywork and, I think, the furniture.

In any event, the overall quality of our particular Bessacarr has stood the test of time very well indeed, with 10 years and close to 80,000 miles with very few problems on the Fiat side, and none at all with the Swift and AlKo parts.

As I said, I've always been a buyer in the second-hand market, so maybe that brings a different set of expectations. Either way, I'm a happy customer!


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

What an interesting and informative thread this is - and greatly enhanced by the input of at least two dealers/manufacturers.  

I wonder how far the problem lies within this comment made earlier in the thread by Peter (Swift)

_"Buying on price is a dangerous game because the Dealer is giving his margin away and this is the margin we give him to do a thorough PDI and for him to make a profit which he may use to facilitate the part exchange etc."_

And presumably also to fix any problems which occur after delivery??


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

ingram said:


> JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:
> 
> 
> > Pixelpusher said:
> ...


I understand see my earlier post 

What I don't understand is why people rush to defend Swift from Swift's own decisions. I can remember fitting a product to a lighthouse that failed prematurely did I tell operations sorry you will have to take that up with the manufacturer?

No I had to fund the logistics cost of getting it fixed. Why? It was my engineering judgement and my supervision of the testing/commissioning procedure. Of course it wasn't directly my fault that the item failed and I certainly got a free replacement but I couldn't pass the cost on to the 'customer'. I did manage to get the supplier to fund part of my costs which I'm sure he set against goodwill and future sales. I also gave the colleague who recommended the part to me a hard time as well


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

Mikemoss said:


> 2 the chassis (AlKo) which went to the AlKo place in the Midlands for a safety belt upgrade which Swift organised and paid for on my behalf


Isn't this a key thing - along with some other comments? It's not the fact that there are separate organisations responsible for separate bits of the thing - it's that one organisation (The Vendor) _takes responsibility_.

In another life, I worked for a company who manufactured expensive machine tool equipment. We had been trained to install, commission and service huge lumps of kit we stuck into these machines, and when the machine (as a whole) went wrong, we (the vendor) went on site and tried to fix it. If we couldn't, then we (the vendor) arranged for the equipment supplier to come in and fix or deliver a replacement. We would not have dreamed of saying to our customer "not my problem - you need to contact J.Bloggs Controls".

So, in the motorhome scenario, Fiat _should_ be responsible for the chassis, engine etc, but it should be the dealer who makes the arrangements and deals with the supplier (i.e. Fiat). Who fixes it is not important to the customer, but he (the customer) should only need to deal with one organisation - the one that took his hard-earned money off him.

Gerald


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Going back a few posts - The warranty is not with the Dealer, it's with the Habitation Unit Manufacturer and the Chassis Manufacturer. 

I believe that the dealer I bought from may act as a single point of contact and I suspect this is the route I may have to take when faults spread across both units. Peter, from John Cross I think would do similar. The problem is the original dealer seems to be the only one who might and this is not always convenient.


Colin


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## Rislar (Aug 16, 2008)

GeraldandAnnie said:


> So, in the motorhome scenario, Fiat _should_ be responsible for the chassis, engine etc, but it should be the dealer who makes the arrangements and deals with the supplier (i.e. Fiat). Who fixes it is not important to the customer, but he (the customer) should only need to deal with one organisation - the one that took his hard-earned money off him.
> 
> Gerald


Nail on the head springs to mind...

(Mod Edit. Fixed your quote Rislar - and quite agree. Well put Gerald.)


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## rrusty (Sep 15, 2007)

I agree.

rrusty


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## 94055 (May 1, 2005)

nukeadmin said:


> > Fiat should have a tab for themselves, then the fiat posts would not be in Swift.
> 
> 
> Good idea and one that I thought was already implemented tbh
> ...


Thank you Dave, it was requested previously on 2nd September was the last time.

Still it is done now, did you put an Eriba tab on?

Steve


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## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

> did you put an Eriba tab on?


I wasn't aware Eriba was a chassis type ?


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## citroennut (May 16, 2005)

Rislar said:


> GeraldandAnnie said:
> 
> 
> > So, in the motorhome scenario, Fiat _should_ be responsible for the chassis, engine etc, but it should be the dealer who makes the arrangements and deals with the supplier (i.e. Fiat). Who fixes it is not important to the customer, but he (the customer) should only need to deal with one organisation - the one that took his hard-earned money off him.
> ...


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## 115816 (Aug 21, 2008)

Colin

You have my sympathy. Thank you for your post . I do not currently own a motorhome - and having read this post and so many other similiar posts I have decided to forget buying a motorhome and spend my money on something else instead!!!!

I don't see why you should spend £30K on something which is not fit for purpose. What does it matter where you bought the van from. The fact is that is should all work properly!!!!!Yes their may be a few teething problems but by now they should be sorted and why shouldn't the dealer have to pay the costs of taking it to a Fiat dealer! They sold it to you so they should fix it!!!!!!

I have to admit I loved the post from Peter which said that they are doing their best in some of the hardest times ever. Well perhaps if they had better quality control, better build quality and better customer service then they would have a few more customers!

I also keep hearing the phrase "we are trying!!!" - well stop trying and start doing!!!! For a start make sure the engineer you promised turns up this time !

Anyway thanks again Colin - you have saved me loads of money

I wish you well and hope someone finally sorts out your MH so you can enjoy it

Sue


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## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

Sue1 said:


> Colin
> 
> You have my sympathy. Thank you for your post . I do not currently own a motorhome - and having read this post and so many other similiar posts I have decided to forget buying a motorhome and spend my money on something else instead!!!!
> 
> ...


 Hi I haven't read all the recent posts on this thread, but I found myself feeling a little sad at your post as you are now missing out on what is one of the greatest and most enjoyable things we have ever been lucky enough to enjoy, so instead of saving you money (and lets face it what is money, ok nice to have some of it) but you sadly you will not now enjoy the pleasure of owning a MH. Just my thoughts.


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

> Who fixes it is not important to the customer, but he (the customer) should only need to deal with one organisation - the one that took his hard-earned money off him.


Hear,Hear.

Now if any manufacturer were really on the ball they could leap in and say "from this day on our owners need only to contact our dealer to get problems fixed, whether in the house we nail on or the delivery van bit" (to steal a quote from a dealer in the North West!

My understanding is that, legally, ones redress lies solely with the guy you paid the money to, not with their subcontractors, suppliers,designers or teaboy.

Why oh why has this split responsibility been uniquely foisted on motorhome buyers.


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## 111728 (Apr 28, 2008)

Colins problem is easily solved. That is, two different aspects of warranty and who is responsible for each part. When it should be one as a whole.

A manufacturer of a motorhome insists that their dealer is fiat service approved. Result, three or four dealers remain, the investment required extensive. Alternative, their staff, liaise with their local Fiat dealer to oversee all Fiat warranty work. Result-1st party has no jurisdiction over 2nd party. even more difficult if Fiat dealer is distant to motorhome dealer, but local to purchaser. Solution, motorhome manufacturer has relationship with base vehicle chassis supplier-who do business on the basis that all motorhome retailers/dealers have option to do first option on a lower budget-or Fiat dealer has exceptional relationship with motorhome dealer- that maybe a lottery.

Customer experience-poor. Solution required!

Answers from manufacturer please!


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## carolgavin (May 9, 2005)

aultymer said:


> My understanding is that, legally, ones redress lies solely with the guy you paid the money to, not with their subcontractors, suppliers,designers or teaboy.


This is indeed true regardless of whether your dealer has been the worlds most helpful or unhelpful dealer the universe has ever seen. Even if your problem is with one bit or the other, if it cannot/has not/will not be fixed your redress is against the dealer.


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

Sue1 said:


> I have decided to forget buying a motorhome and spend my money on something else instead!!!!


Hi Sue

Of course, it's your decision, and I feel if you really wanted a motorhome, you would buy one - maybe one that's 1-2 years old so warranty issues will be sorted. Our first van was 6 years old when we bought it, and had only 11000 miles on the clock. Virtually unused!

Also, remember that the nature of an open forum like this is such that the reports of bad service are well-read and replied to. Fellow members want to commiserate, and maybe suggest solutions. I would estimate that for every negative report like this, there are 10 or 20 or maybe more members who are enjoying their purchase, with few or no problems. We count ourselves in that group.

Gerald


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## Rislar (Aug 16, 2008)

Sue1 said:


> Colin
> 
> You have my sympathy. Thank you for your post . I do not currently own a motorhome - and having read this post and so many other similiar posts I have decided to forget buying a motorhome and spend my money on something else instead!!!!
> 
> ...


How sad that this has put you off Sue, you should do as the post above says, buy something a bit older as the checks and so on will have been done, that is what i am doing.


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Sue....

Despite my problems I really wouldn't let this put you off getting a MH. Just go into the deal with eyes wide open as a result of what you are reading here.

As for Geralds advice about buying a 1-2 year MH because the warranty issues should have been resolved. Well mine is 18mths old - would you like to buy it with all the problems it still has - just kidding as I really wouldn't part with it.

There is tremendous fun to be had from the open road - enjoy it!!

Colin


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Some more points to discuss....

What is your 'pain threshold' for invoking warranty re-work. There are a number of items on my list that I could fix fairly easily but my feeling is that I shouldn't have to. Which makes me think that there are perhaps a fair number of people who have, lets say, minor issues, that just apply a bit of glue or whatever and never report this back to the dealer/manufacturer. The manufacturer is therefore not seeing the full consequences of less than desirable quality.

You obviously need to way up the personal cost and inconvenience of getting to a dealer to have it fixed 'for free'.

The second point I have concerns the dealer network. As a compromise with Swift I agreed to contact a local dealer they had found who might undertake the work. However, the process was not straightfoward.

Firstly I would have to take my MH in for assessment and then take it away. The dealer would then contact Swift who would then give the go ahead. Then I would have to take it back in for the work to be done. A minimum of 2 round trips. (Not including the fact that the FIAT problem would have to be taken somewhere else - we've been there!!)

When I took the MH back to the original dealer shortly after delivery to have some problems fixed - they did it in one shot. As far as I know, no contact with Swift.

This again lends weight to the arguement of taking it back to your original dealer but at the same time underlines the fact - if this is generally the case - that the dealer network is losely coupled.

Colin


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

Hi Colin

Interesting point about the 'pain threshold'. I'm sure you're right, and many people (myself included) just fix or ignore minor problems which might prompt other people to higtail it back to the dealer.

* After I got ours home, I noticed ripples on the nearside fibreglass wing. Contacted the dealer - "no problem - bring it in, and we'll change it" (I suspect for one off another van whose owner might not notice :roll: ). I haven't yet (dealer far away, can't get time off, not that important, etc etc).

* A pipe popped off the heater when on water heating - I fixed it myself.

* On a very hot day, the hab door fouls on the bodywork a little (expansion of the side panel - I lean sideways on the door, and pop it in.

* One of the internal cupboard door catches has become a bit sticky - when I get fed of it, I'll sort it out myself.

* The water filler cap lock sometimes pops out of the casing when I unlock it - I pop it back in.

* There's something dropped off the underneath of the table and went missing, where the little slidey-out thing slides out to extend the table - I can't see what it was, or what it did, so I haven't worried out it.

* One of the exterior locker doors doesn't fit 'the same' as the others - maybe it needs adjusting, but it works fine as it is.

* The Heiki roof fly screen has to be slid out slowly, otherwise it comes out of the slides a bit - I slide it out slowly.

All these (and I'm sure there are others) are very minor points, and I appreciate are insignificant when compared to some issues listed on here. It shows my own personal pain threshold, and I don't worry too much about any of them. Obviously, something physically breaking or leaking, which would stop us using it, and I'd be back to the dealer like a shot, with this list too.

I have a lot of sympathy with those owners who have serious problems, and feel sorry that they can't enjoy their investment as we, and many others, can.

Gerald


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

We buy vans from a dealer the other end of the Country, and we do it to save money, and then expect to travel to the closest dealer for service :? 

When we have a van with loads and loads of faults, we sell the van on to a fellow motorcaravanner, buy another one, and complain about morals :?

Funny old world isn't it  

One point that I would like to raise is that the car argument is so often used, yet groundless as a comparison. 

A motorhome is far more complex than a car, in as much that you have everything that a car has, plus: Gas systems, domestic water systems hot & cold, Fridge and possibly freezer, Heating system, 220volt electrics, 12 volt domestic electrics, upholstery & carpets, cabinetry, possibly satellite equipment and entertainment equipment tanks clips cupboards and catches! 

So to get experts on each of these items, properly qualified and trained sat around in each branch is expensive, and would need to be passed either on to the customer, or up the line to the manufacturer which would result in higher forecourt prices for everyone, even the people that are currently generally happy with their dealer/arrangements presently (and these people are the majority)

Add a healthy dose of customers misuse and abuse, and inability to operate in accordance with the manufacturers directions, loads of interfacing between items and the split issues that this can cause and it is a very muddy puddle indeed.

We don't sell vans (we used to but gave up as too time consuming) but, there are very very few dealers in Europe that can offer a FULL warranty service and they are the one's that always seem to be at the front of complaint and dissent from the majority.

Peter's Business model seems to be similar to ours, help where we can and be firm about things they can't help with.

Also we have to deal with the ever increasing level of threat! Sometimes physical some times "I'll write to MMM post on MotorhomeFacts etc.

Normally these threats are when some one cannot get their own way and we have refused to do things the way that they seem to think we should.

A good example: We install security systems, it is called Strikeback and we have been doing this for nearly 20 years. Recently Lyn in our office was talking to a chap that we installed an alarm for in Feb 2002 (time of writing Oct 2008)

He had originally telephoned us in June, and asked for seven replacement International warning stickers (ours are in five European languages) Now, in 2002 he had reguested four stickers. He was told that we do not retail the stickers as that causes even further problems (People think that they have Strikeback fitted yet in fact only have a Thatcham car alarm) 

Instead, if his existing stickers have faded, if he peels them off, pops them in an envelope and sends them back, we will replace them free of charge, even though the work was carried out over SIX years ago. He said that he couldn't be bothered, so he would rather buy some more. We repeated that we don't sell them we only replace them free of charge. The man put the phone down on our staff member.

Back to the present, the same man, same conversation now talking to Lyn and getting very angry that we won't sell him something. He cannot understand why we would not sell them to him, and we cannot understand why, if he is genuine, he would not want them free of charge.

The guys then told Lyn that he couldn't possibly send the faded stickers back as he was due to go on holiday in two days time, so if we don't sell him the stickers, and he gets robbed it will be her fault and he will sue us! 

Lyn replied (having read his notes while listening to the tirade) pointed out sweetly, that he wasn't going on holiday in two days time, when he contacted us in June. He was offered the same service then, but he slammed the phone down 8O 

This shifted up the abuse a gear and we were stupid and incompetent and he was going to complain about us on motorhome Facts and Fun and was going to write to MMM Lyn politely told the guy that that was his prerogative and made the point that we think that to offer to replace somthing FOC over six years old was fairly good customer service and we felt that he would end up looking daft! He put the phone down again! We keep very detailed records and the number of times similar things happen is no one's business

We were contacted a couple of weeks ago by the new owner of this chaps motorhome, who bought it, second hand in May 8O 

Not everything is black and white.

I would buy a Swift happily (in fact Strikeback was designed on and around a Swift Kon Tiki and a bloody good van it was) but I would expect to have a basic tool kit with me where ever I went as I would with any motorhome, and have had to do with any van I have ever owned. I would though expect to get decent dealer support for those issues that I did need warranty assistance with.

Just a few thoughts

Cheers

Eddie


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

An interesting post Gerald, and whilst not wishing to pontificate any more than you do  , I think *some *members who post about their "dozens of faults" on here should print out your post and read it through every so often.

*Needless to say (but I will!) neither of us is including those unfortunates who have serious faults of any kind or quantity*, but it does seem that some people actually search for trivial problems just so they can have a go at dealers and manufacturers.

Your approach is exactly parallel to my own, and as a result I have an excellent relationship with both dealer and manufacturer. I asked permission to fix a few minor faults (concerned about warranty) and they always agreed, then when I have had serious faults they have both taken my requests very seriously and have dealt with them in an exemplary manner.

I am pontificating now (sorry - it's grandpa on his soapbox again!  :roll: ) but I think there has to be some give and take, especially when dealing with the sort of relatively trivial problems you have just highlighted.

The fact that this is on Colin's thread in no way suggests that I (or Gerald I'm sure) am having a go at him. It's just a general feeling that needs an airing from time to time in order to maintain a balanced viewpoint.


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

*well said*



eddievanbitz said:


> We buy vans from a dealer the other end of the Country, and we do it to save money, and then expect to travel to the closest dealer for service :?
> 
> When we have a van with loads and loads of faults, we sell the van on to a fellow motorcaravanner, buy another one, and complain about morals :?
> 
> ...


Well said Eddie.There are a few who spoil it for the majority we will always always try to help but it is very difficult if you are lied too or you are spoken too in an abusive manner my girls are committed to their job and I believe in them 100% and believe me they rip into our designers ,QA people etc. Its easy for certain people to criticise its not easy running a business.Peter.


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

* its not easy running a business.Peter.*

Its not easy parting with the majority of your life savings either!! :wink:


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## roger-the-lodger (Apr 21, 2008)

A very interesting and useful thread, especially to people like us who are entirely new to motorhoming. Here are a few thoughts it provoked in me.

It would seem that if you buy a new motorhome you buy tickets in two lotteries. The first is the lottery of delivered build quality that may well vary between individual vehicles rather more than it does between different converters. The second is the lottery of dealer service quality. From what I’ve read dealers like Johns Cross represent the top “prizes” in this one; at the other end of the spectrum are dealers who either don’t care, can’t perform or both.

The second lottery is more potentially damaging to innocent customers than the first because poor build quality can usually be overcome if and only if you get good dealer service. With bum results in both lotteries you’re well and truly stuffed unless you’re skilled enough to fix things yourself.

Some posters make the point that these lotteries shouldn’t exist. But I suspect that in practice, perfect build quality is impossible to obtain in a competitively priced motorhome, though there must be scope for improvement. We inspected new vehicles from a wide range of converters and we found no significant differences in design or build quality between different manufacturers at similar price points – German build quality seemed to be a particular myth.

There is less excuse for lottery 2. It is there, it seems to me, for three main reasons. Firstly there is no effective dealer competition to help the end-customer. As many, including Eddie, have pointed out, it is folly to buy from a distant dealer to shave the price. Warranty work is clearly not transferable between dealers unless you have the rare dealer in your locality who will take it on when you bought elsewhere. And as one poster pointed out, tough if you move house! Yes, Eddie, I would pay more to buy from Johns Cross (as I paid more to buy your alarm :wink: ) – such a shame JC is 350 miles away from me! I bought from a dealer 4 miles from my house (where I live there’s not much at all within 4 miles of my house except sheep so this is a minor miracle) and they did me a decent price deal. But I suspect they're somewhere in the middle of that service quality “spectrum”. As the first lottery hasn’t so far delivered anything very bad to me, I can’t be sure how they’ll perform post-sale if and when it does. Let’s just say that with a minor but annoying electrical fault on delivery, I found them the wiring diagram and explained the interfaces after their first attempt to fix failed, and they then succeeded.

The second reason for lottery 2 is the weak and ineffective qualification and accreditation of dealers by the converters. Why I reckon I could persuade them to make me a dealer as long as I could shift vans! The third reason is the weakness of the warranty terms, conditions and scope from the end-customers viewpoint. This has been well illustrated in this thread and doesn’t need me to reiterate details.

So my finger is left pointing at converters. Not particularly at Swift who at least monitor this forum and are frequently responsive to posted problems. But if Peter at Swift wants to gain competitive advantage in hard times, could he not consider being the first MH converter to have a properly qualified and trained dealer network and the best habitation warranty in the industry transferable between accredited dealers contractually obliged to perform? Then sell that advantage to the market. The investment may not be affordable (i.e. saleable to shareholders in current circumstances) and I suspect that there we may have the nub of the whole problem.

As for Eddie’s customer-from-hell, who among us would not sympathise with Eddie and Lyn? But sadly, being the most reasonable customer on earth offers no protection from a bad dealer or poor supplier. It’s reasonable but mistreated customers I worry about!

A last, less serious point: just over 12 years ago I had a canal narrowboat built. Although we had fabulous times on it, we’re ready for something different. If you think MHs can be a problem, why not try a narrowboat?  Bit like a motorhome that floats, really. Built by a cottage industry in which many of the builders ought to wear Stetsons and spurred boots. Warranty, what’s that? All the same habitation systems as on a motorhome for your delight! The added fun of water underneath! Many parts you can get to only if you are double-jointed with the muscles of an elite class athlete. By the way, it’s for sale! Excellent nick and very reasonably priced. Complete with comprehensive toolkit and many incomprehensible instruction books. :roll: 

Roger


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## MaxandPaddy (Mar 18, 2006)

We take our Motorhome back and have all faults rectified by the dealer.

Mainly because we have had some very serious problems (I wish they were trivial!) and they get remedied at the same time as the major faults.

The problem is that if you find a minor niggly fault you tend to become more exasperated because you have experienced a whole catalogue of serious faults that really should not be happening so they just add to your frustrations!

I have always been firm but fair in my approach to the faults on our Motorhome and treat people how I would be expected to be treated myself,the down side of this is you can be treated as a bit of a soft touch because you don't lay the law down and make threats.

On an occasion where I was going to go to legal action against the dealer I did use all the proper channels and followed the correct procedure.

People have said to us that they would do this and that and park the Motorhome outside the dealers and shout and bawl but I cannot see that action having a productive outcome.

I hope my balanced approach and determination to have all our problems solved will pay off in the long run.

I have an excellent relationship with the service department of the dealer from whom we bought the Motorhome,the technicians/mechanics have even given me their mobile phone numbers for out of hours problems we have had so many dilemmas with our Motorhome!

I do feel our problems are down to poor manufacturing not bad service from the dealers service department.

If the Motorhome had been manufactured to a good standard then our problems would never have occured.

Unfortunately the sales department have let us down and do not want to know when it comes to sorting out the problems.

From one who has had to return her Motorhome on nine occasions in ten months and the Motorhome has spent around 2months at the dealers I think I am qualified in saying there does need to be some improvement in service when problems arise!

Val


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

*Unfortunately the sales department have let us down and do not want to know when it comes to sorting out the problems. *

Unfortunately true, when I had to take over the running of Johns Cross four years ago (admittedly from afar as I do not live locally) I had a Sales Manager with that attitude, fortunately Glenn our Service Manager did not.

*Needless to say that Sales manager with that attitude did not last long as I feel that whoever sold it SORTS IT and makes sure HIS customer is happy with his purchase.*

Peter


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Hi Roger

Excellent post, I guess the answer is to qualify who does what, where and for how much before anyone buys a motorhome. Ask the question "If I buy this motorhome from you, where do I take it for.................

With my reference to difficult customers it wasn't to excuse poor service, but to highlight that very few things in life are black and white.

Bring it right down to the lowest level, I have letters on file saying that particular members of my staff are excellent and other customers have written complaining about the same people 8O 

Some dealers get slagged off yet other members cannot praise them highly enough!

There is an expression that you hire attitude and train skill. 

This could be used as an analogy when choosing a manufacturer to build you a motorhome, this thread is about Swift and to be fair they are here joining in the discussion admitting that sometimes mistakes are made, but seemingly with a strong desire to deal with issues. 

I really don't think though that people should buy a Swift and then moan about service issues without naming the dealer that they purchased from. If the dealer has genuinely failed and refused to help there is no problem naming names. There is only a problem naming names if the story doesn't stack up and is an untrue version of account.

I don't see many other manufacturers on here, the biggest independent motorhome forum in Europe, especially the Managing Director

Well done Swift I say :cheers:


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

JohnsCrossMotorHomes said:


> I feel that whoever sold it SORTS IT and makes sure HIS customer is happy with his purchase.


What a refreshing comment, Peter. 

Gerald


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## MaxandPaddy (Mar 18, 2006)

You seem to have an excellent approach to customer service Peter,oh how I wish you were a Yorkshire based dealer!

The previous General Manager of the dealership who now just does the shows told me at Pickering that I should have rejected the Motorhome as the problems it has had are so bad and the new MD has failed to return any calls I make to speak with him!

So needless to say I will not be visiting their Sales Department again!

The worrying thing is the Sales operation of that dealership probably do not care that we have been very unhappy.

It is a breath of fresh air to hear you do give a damn Peter  !

Val


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## Technophobe (Jul 31, 2007)

Some very sensible and appropriate replies here from Eddie (Van Bitz) and Peter (Swift) together with some of the moderators. We bought a 2002 Swift Gazelle a few weeks ago - very low mileage and in remarkable condition for its age. Effectively it had hardly been used!

However, as with anything as complex as a MH, a few things weren't 100%. I have NO complaints with the retailer (Richard Baldwins) as they did an excellent job preparing it for us, a super handover and even agreed to supply a new rear light lens and shower curtain - which they promptly did without charge. Going over the vehicle when I got home, I found a small assortment of minor items that weren't 100% and set about sorting them. New screws in an interior locker cover that had come away, minor fridge components missing, curtain track pulled away etc. I felt it entirely reasonable for me to attend to these, which I have now done.

Although my observations relate to a secondhand vehicle, within reason I would put right minor things that I felt were safe and straightforward for me to attend to on a new one. Of course, if a major component did not work or there was a serious flaw, then I would take this up with the dealer and, assuming it was warranty covered, would expect the problems to be addressed. I don't think I could reasonably expect the dealer to drop everything and rush to my aid - I'd have to take my turn.

What bothers me is the person who buys something (eg a freezer), has no problems for years, it then breaks down and they feel they have been badly done to because their previous one lasted for twenty years and this one only lasted five!

For what it's worth, I find that calmness and a polite manner is more likely to get cooperation than losing your cool - even if you feel eminently justified in being cross :evil: -> :idea: -> .

Jon


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Jon (Technophobe)

It's not only Eddie, Peter and the Mods who make sensible and reasoned posts.  

A very balanced view of the whole scenario if I may say so - covering both trivial and serious setbacks equally sensibly.

Well played that man!


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## MaxandPaddy (Mar 18, 2006)

Eddievanblitz,
We may give Swift some stick and yes I admit I am guilty of that but I do think Peter from Swift would agree I have never been abusive to him or his staff.

Now from a customers point of view you do have a problem with naming and shaming!

When you buy a Motorhome you are at the mercy of the dealer when things go wrong and have serious problems,i am talking about issues that make the Motorhome unusable until it is fixed not cosmetic problems.

If you name and shame on a public forum it can create tension between the dealer and yourself.

Now I am not worried about bad feelings between myself and the sales department as they do not deserve my respect but my motorhome is sitting in the service department at the moment and one particular member of that department has been my life line during the ten months of on going problems and I do not want to tar him with the same brush as some of his colleagues who work in other departments as if I upset him then I loose a valuable contact who is actually working towards putting things right!

You do have to be diplomatic on some occasions to get things done or people do not want to go that extra mile to help you out.

So naming and shaming is not always the best route to go when you are totally reliant on the dealer to cure your problems!

i know it is not right but unfortunately that is how you have to play the game.


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## Technophobe (Jul 31, 2007)

Zebedee said:


> It's not only Eddie, Peter and the Mods who make sensible and reasoned posts.


Indeed - very true. There are a wonderfully large number of well-informed people here, and their contributions are without equal on the net or in print in my opinion.

I have NEVER spent money to join a forum/website before and it is a tribute to the quality of this community that I did not hesitate to stump up my £10 to join MHF! (and will doubtless be equally keen to renew when the time comes around).

Jon


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Technophobe said:


> Zebedee said:
> 
> 
> > It's not only Eddie, Peter and the Mods who make sensible and reasoned posts.
> ...


You may have misunderstood my meaning Jon.

It was a direct compliment to yourself - meaning that your post was pretty damn good as well.


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Hi Max&Paddy (sorry I don't know your name  )

I understand, I really do. One of the things that I bang on about all the time at work is that we are all general public to some one else 8O 

The point I was making is that Swift make things. Lets just say that you pay £40,000.00 for a brand new Swift Giveadamn. 

Now, When Swift manufacturer and produce the Giveadamn they don't sell it to Bodge It Bodge It and Scarper Motorhomes Ltd for £40,000.00

Bodge It Bodge It and Scarper Motorhomes Ltd sell it to Mr & Mrs General Public for £40,000.00 (Thus making the Lions share of any profit in the deal)

When Mr & Mrs Public take the Swift Giveadamn home and start using it 
they notice a few problems. They take it back to Bodge It Bodge It and Scarper Motorhomes Ltd who attempt to do a couple of jobs and blame Swift for the other problems.

Mr & Mrs General Public email Swift and get politely referred back to Bodge It Bodge It and Scarper, and the same fiasco starts over.

It is the dealer causing the problem here. If Swift retailed vans they would be geared up for customers visiting the factory and have waiting areas, and all the things you would expect. But the dealer should be providing these things as it is the dealer who has taken the money.

If Bodge It Bodge It and Scarper refuse or are incapable to rectify the problems, not naming them on a public forum for fear of them not rectify the jobs wont help. Naming them and bringing pressure to bear on them probably would in my opinion.

Perhaps this explains why no one complains about Swift motorhomes that are bought from Peters Johns Cross Motorhomes! We either have to accept that Swift produce really good vans for some dealers, and save the rubbish ones for other dealers, or we really do have to accept that it is the dealers that are at fault and not Swift.

Dave (Zebedee) has a niggley intermittent problem with a reversing camera Van Bitz installed earlier this year. We have been trying to resolve the problem for him but it has been difficult. He has been PM'ing me all the while we have been swapping banter publically. We will do what ever it takes to resolve his problem. However, had there been a post on MHfacts "Van Bitz are rubbish" we would have had to defend ourselves (as Swift end up doing some times) by saying, the installation is fine it is a component failure of a third party that has caused the problem.

Had we ignored Dave or refused to help, then perhaps it is the time to take the issue to a public forum, in which case naming the dealer is academic in my opinion.

This is not a go at anyone as we all have our individual crosses to bear


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

*life savings*



Spacerunner said:


> * its not easy running a business.Peter.*
> 
> Its not easy parting with the majority of your life savings either!! :wink:


I know that and I always ask my people to put themselves in the customers place.Peter.


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## Technophobe (Jul 31, 2007)

No misunderstanding Dave - and thanks given to you :thumbright:! Just expanding on my previous comment.

Jon


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Eddie....

You missed a scenario.

If the manufacturer makes the MH and the dealer sells it to me and problems occur afterwards. Who caused the problems? The dealer didn't design a bed that would break, or a waste pipe that would snap, or a heater that doesn't work on its timer.

If the dealer then fixes those problems and then another set of problems occur. Who caused those problems?

It seems to me in this scenario the root cause of the problems lies with the manufacturer not the dealer. He's fixed what he could, not caused new problems.

Do you think it would have made any difference to my problems if I'd bought if from John Cross or Mr First Class dealer. No it wouldn't.

I have no problem with my dealer. He could fix all my problems I'm sure. My point this time was that I felt that with this string of problems it was time Swift took a personal interest. Fortunately and at last they are, to some extent, because as we speak one of their Engineers is on his way to assess my problems.

Since we have the attention of some dealers I'll pose a couple of questions to you and you can choose to answer or not.

Do you think you get the full amount of compensation from the Manufacturer when you do warranty work or do you think you loose a little because you perhaps go the extra mile or it costs more than what they think? 

Does doing warranty work stop you from doing other work that might earn you more money?

Colin


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## 111728 (Apr 28, 2008)

Eddie

This problem is solved very easy with Bodge it bodge it Ltd. The manufacturer kicks them into touch. Likely to happen, two chances... a fat one and a slim one.....

Manufacturers need distributors, the more the merrier, spread the risk and a foot in every door if possible. Sorry, but that would be the way it works to me. Or at least the impression anyway.

It is easier for a manufacturer/convertor to appoint a dealer and vice versa. There appears no standards. I have visited quite a few premises and dealers and each one is individual. But not common, by that, a common standard.

Maybe an issue that may be worthy of debate, from a different tangent is how much are they paid for warranty work relative to their retail labour rate.

If there is no warranty payment and it is built into the profit. How can you expect there to be service from a cheaper retailer (because they have little left). Or, as I suspect, the warranty rate paid is a small percentage and not similar to their retail charge out rate, what incentive is their to work on a vehicle they did not sell.

I suspect there will be a rush or replies stating......, keeping good customer goodwill. Question, did you give goodwill when you purchased from a different retailer? Or when making the decision. I like Eddies answers. There is a balance somewhere. I cannot see it, but I hope someone will tell me.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

eddievanbitz said:


> Dave (Zebedee) has a niggley intermittent problem with a reversing camera Van Bitz installed earlier this year. We have been trying to resolve the problem for him but it has been difficult. He has been PM'ing me all the while we have been swapping banter publically. We will do what ever it takes to resolve his problem. However, had there been a post on MHfacts "Van Bitz are rubbish" we would have had to defend ourselves (as Swift end up doing some times) by saying, the installation is fine it is a component failure of a third party that has caused the problem.
> 
> Had we ignored Dave or refused to help, then perhaps it is the time to take the issue to a public forum, in which case naming the dealer is academic in my opinion.


The banter makes it all the more enjoyable Eddie, and it seems a pity that more people (on both sides of the fence) can't approach each other with a smile on their faces and a positive attitude toward each other.

Because not everyone is as reasonable or tolerant as perhaps they should be, there may come a time when either party feels the need to get a bit tough, but _*the last resort should be used last*_ in my opinion, and not until all the "friendly" approach has been used up.

At risk of making you blush and reach for a steadying shot of Captain Morgan, I cannot think of a single thing to complain about in the whole time we have been dealing with you . . . . apart from the choccy machine of course.  8O _(Hairy old private joke, for recent members who may not know!)_

Plenty more banter available from both directions no doubt   - and because I have complete confidence in your demonstrable commitment to customer satisfaction I have not the least worry that all will be fixed in the end.

_(Is he blushing yet Lyn?)_ :wink:


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Hi Colin

again a good post. I am not a motorhome dealer anymore so not qualified to answer whether the manufacturers pay a fair amount for warranty work or not. As for warranty work stopping the workshop undertaking other work, invariably it does. However, again a mantra we have is that "Customers are the reason for our work, not an interruption of it"

Using your argument "Who caused the problems? The dealer didn't design a bed that would break, or a waste pipe that would snap, or a heater that doesn't work on its timer" Why stop at Swift? The waste pipe is manufactured by someone, why not take it up with them? I bet that the people that manufacture your heating system buy in the timer unit so track them down and get them involved? As for the bad bed design: I would blame the person that taught the designer as it would be his fault!

Obviously I am joking (I hope that it is obvious) but ultimately there has to be a system and if you step outside the system, it does not always elicit the response you want straight away.

I must admit though that this post just proves what a great forum Motorhomefacts is, well worth a tenner of any ones money whether trade or public

Cheers

Eddie


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Awwhh Dave shucks


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

eddievanbitz said:


> Now, When Swift manufacturer and produce the Giveadamn they don't sell it to Bodge It Bodge It and Scarper Motorhomes Ltd for £40,000.00 Bodge It Bodge It and Scarper Motorhomes Ltd sell it to Mr & Mrs General Public for £40,000.00 (Thus making the Lions share of any profit in the deal)


Out of interest, what happens when BiBi&S etc give away large parts of their margin in giving discounts to customers in order to shift product? Do they have enough left to give suitable customer service?

If, indeed, warranty work on behalf of the manufacturer is repaid at a less-than-commercial rate, what incentive is there for a local dealer (who can't make the same discount offers as a remote dealer) to perform warranty work?

The profit a dealer makes on the sale of a motorhome has to be used in a variety of areas - overheads, staff, and after-sales support. If the dealer gives away that profit as discount, what happens? The buildings still stand (and therefore attract business rates and maintenance costs), the people are still employed, so is it possible that after-sales support is compromised?

Maybe next time you're looking for a new motorhome, give some thought to this, and consider that perhaps it's not always the best option to chase the lowest price.

Gerald


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

*Do you think you get the full amount of compensation from the Manufacturer when you do warranty work or do you think you loose a little because you perhaps go the extra mile or it costs more than what they think? *

No we do not get paid the full labour rate but that is not OUR customers concern when he has purchased from us.

As regards MH's purchased elsewhere, I feel that as a Franchised Dealer representing the converter, we should undertake other peoples problems but on the same hand we cannot afford to offer the same level of service that we offer our own customers as regards Fiat chassis/cab warranty.

*Does doing warranty work stop you from doing other work that might earn you more money? *

Of course it does but being a Franchised Dealer that is part of the deal as far as I am concerned. it might not be how some other dealers operate but they are not my concern.

Peter


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Eddie....

I have to say I agree that this forum offers value for money. Its the only one I've ever paid a subscription for.

As to your response - well either the Manufacturer designed the item, built it or specified it. 

Now things will break due to the perversity of nature and time and I'll except this but when things break due to poor design or poor workmanship or that they are just not up to the job then thats another issue.

Colin


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Peter (JCMH)....

Thanks for the info. The point I was leading to is that warranty work is not in the interest of the dealer either. The less warranty claims needed makes for happier customers and dealers.

Colin


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Hi Colin

I agree bad design is frustrating

BTW I think your avatar is fantastic  

cheers

Eddie


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

The Engineer from Swift has just visited and for that I thank Swift. He has assessed all the problems and it looks like Swift will now arrange all necessary parts and instructions to be at the local dealers so that one visit will fix all. 

Well almost. 

He has seen the split in the Cab Floor and yes it will mean a trip to a FIAT dealer but again it looks like Swift will pave the way with them, so to speak.  Looking at it, it looks like the only way to fix is a complete new floor.

There are still two design issues that need to be referred back to the factory. Another trip to the dealer maybe.

In the words of many a child - 'Are we nearly there'!! It looks like it.

Colin


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## johng1974 (Jan 17, 2007)




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## MaxandPaddy (Mar 18, 2006)

Colin,
There is a god................well maybe :lol: !

Glad you have had a positive outcome today,hope it all gets sorted out SWIFTLY! :wink: !

Val


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## carolgavin (May 9, 2005)

Woooohooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!


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## roger-the-lodger (Apr 21, 2008)

eddievanbitz said:


> I don't see many other manufacturers on here, the biggest independent motorhome forum in Europe, especially the Managing Director
> 
> Well done Swift I say :cheers:


Excellent post too Eddie, and I agree with it and with your subsequent posts also. Hey, we could get a nice 2-man mutual admiration society going here! :lol:

I'm absolutely new to motorhoming and I've got a lot to learn. This forum is helping me with that and I'm grateful to all who have been in this so much longer than I have. But I spent a 40 year career in manufacturing, in customer support roles with products a bit more complex than a motorhome, and I know all about things not being black and white.

Swift's attitude and responses on this forum, which I was monitoring before a ordered my MH, and phone conversations with them, were honestly a major factor in our choosing a Swift Group product. So I too say - well, done Swift!

When I said my finger was still pointing at Converters I meant it in one sense only. The problem (in some, probably too many, cases) is indeed the Dealer. Who can fix that? The hapless customer can't - well, he or she can decide not to buy at all, as in the rather sad response of one poster on this thread, but as I pointed out, if they want to enter the market they must buy locally and are stuffed with whatever dealer is available locally. I'm beginning to lose count of people who would like to clone John Cross in their locality! So the customer can't fix a local Bodgit.

The dealer clearly can't fix the dealer (a problem can't fix a problem).

The only possible source of a fix is the converter whose products find their way to market via this Bodgit dealer. Hence my comments about qualification, training and accreditation of dealers in my last post and hence the direction in which my finger is still pointing! To be clear, my point is not about converters improving build quality - it is about them improving management of, and help to, dealers and being much tougher on accreditation.

It would be fair to say that this is not a point primarily for a Swift-related forum - the problem is with the the industry business model and is industry wide. Swift is trying harder than most to alleviate it by becoming involved in the customer-dealer communication and are to be commended for that as already said.

Many years ago I worked for a medium sized electronics company assembling and commissioning products for IBM (a real force in IT in those days!). I brokered the business and it was a nerve - we had a lot to learn but we knew we could do it, and do it well. Even when we'd basically cracked it, things would inevitably go wrong, and we almost literally trembled to receive the call from IBM telling us that they thought we needed "Help"! :roll: But it was that "help" that got us there and made both companies money.

As there are no standards organisations with teeth in this market, I don't have any answer I'm afraid, other than a converter breaking the mould and showing what can be done. Other than cloning JCM that is.

Roger


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## tattyhead (Mar 21, 2006)

*Swifts*

I /We felt that we must put our view of Swifts as a company. Today we have been to their 'Factory Visit' and I must say that we were very very impressed. We found Kath and the entire team that we met to be very
accommodating and very approachable. They sorted out one tiny little problem we had with the habitation door on our Bolero, and even contacted the fridge/freezer supplier and got the answers regarding the use of a switch.

We would have no hesitation in purchasing another Swift motorhome if we ever felt the need to change the Bolero 680FB that we already have.

Thanks for a very enjoyable and informative day to you all at Swifts

Tattyhead (Mo & Pauline


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

This thread alone jusifies the £10.00 p.a. for joining. There is a vast amount of wisdom embedded in many comments here, to precis the points;

1. you get what you pay for, pay peanuts get monkeys,

2. design cannot be blamed automatically, misuse also happens,

3. where MH manufacturers can help they will, but some things are beyond them

4. dealers vary from outstandingly good to unmentionably bad and you do not know which one you have just approached, unless you have read this thread!

5. the perfect motorhome has probably not yet been made; like the perfect aircraft in the old parachutist joke,

6. if the local dealer is good, go there, even if it costs a little more - it will repay the extra afterwards if you are unlucky,

7. always approach any stress situation calmly, shouting does not solve problems (like waving ones hands in France because the French do not understand English),

8. keep reading this forum, it is the best!

9. It is clearly apparent that JohnsCrossMotorhomes, Swift and Eddievanbitz have all gone the extra mile to help customers - such actions deserve support and greater consideration when purchases are planned.

10. I have priduced a precis probably longer than some of the original comments - my O level English teacher would not have been impressed!

Thank you to all those who have contributed to a very memorable thread which appears to have a positive finale for the originator.


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## roger-the-lodger (Apr 21, 2008)

I think that's an excellent precis, Penguin! The only one of your points I disagree with is Point 10. :wink: 

Roger


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Since it seems time for an update here's my own analysis and take on things in general to do with MHs...

From my list of faults I've made the following breakdown:-

Total number of faults - 25.

a) Number of faults due to design issues - 7
b) Number of faults due to manufacturing - 13
c) Number of faults due to component failure - 4
d) Number of faults due to unknown causes - 1

Possibily some of b and c could be interchanged as its hard know if a component fails due to an inherent defect or due to a manufacturing process.

Things to keep in mind regarding cost of ownership:-

1. There appears to be an acceptance that some problems will occur in the initial period of ownership - which is an unspecified time!

2. You really have two warranties - Hab Unit and Chassis.

3. You may have a problem that each warranty owner says is the responsibility of the other.

4. You will have to take you vehicle back for warranty repair in your own time and cost.

5. You may have to make a few visits to the dealer for warranty repair due to:-

a) Two different warranties
b) The need for assessment first
c) Get the work done.

6. The dealer network may not be interested in your warranty work unless you bought from that dealer.

7. You may get a better service from the original dealer - i.e less trips.

8. The dealer will not be able to help with design related issues unless they are failures. By this I mean if something doesn't work as it should but is not actually broken, the dealer may not be able to do anything.

Colin


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Seems a pretty good assessment to me Colin.  

It doesn't apply only to motorhomes of course, and most of your criteria would be applicable if any commodity costing quite a lot of money was found to be faulty.

'Tis a pity there can't be a "one stop shop" as you (and others) have said before, but I guess it's not often either practical or economically feasible.


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## roger-the-lodger (Apr 21, 2008)

Colin, another good summary. I'd add just one more point to your 8:

9. You may live in a location where the best dealers are an impossibly long way away and where there is little or no competitive choice, in which case you will have to make the best you can of the situation. Useful strategies in this regard are polite insistence that the dealer performs (within his actual limits of skill and knowledge), buying secondhand with qualified pre-purchase inspection and a warranty, insisting on the necessary technical documentation at delivery, getting a good toolkit and if you're not "handy", becoming so! Oh and choose a converter who at least cares enough to monitor this forum!

A couple of ideas: Firstly, if a moderator could somehow extract the essence of this thread and capture it in an advice posted as a sticky in a number of the forums (including Newbies) that would be great, wouldn't it? Probably too much to ask though as it's quite a bit of work.

Secondly, a way of improving dealer quality and consistency of this would be to have independent assessment of dealers with results published in a periodic guide - a sort-of "Good Dealer Guide". Any candidate organisation to do this would have to be independent of the money-making side of the industry - it could be one of the major clubs. As far as I know nothing like this exists and the large clubs seem surprisingly silent and inactive on the whole topic of motorhome and caravan standards. The NCC certificates do not do this job. As an idea, probably idealistic and hard to get off the ground, but such things have been achieved before in other fields.

Roger


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

roger-the-lodger said:


> A couple of ideas: Firstly, if a moderator could somehow extract the essence of this thread and capture it in an advice posted as a sticky in a number of the forums (including Newbies) that would be great, wouldn't it? Probably too much to ask though as it's quite a bit of work.
> Roger


Not a bad idea at that Roger.  

If you or someone else would like to do the extraction of the most salient points and PM the result to a Mod, I expect it could be put somewhere suitable where it could be easily found.

I think multiple "stickies" might not be convenient, but wait a while and see if any of the more experienced Mods have an idea. _(Some will be at the rally, so don't think you are being ignored.)_

Will draw their attention to your post.

*Edit - Please see follow-up post below.*


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

I think if there are to be extracts made from this post then it should be done in a neutral way. That is, there are no references to any specific manufacturer or dealer.

Colin


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

*Follow up*.

Have discussed with other Mods Roger, and it's not as straightforward as at first it appears. :roll:

Apart from any other considerations there are legal implications to consider, and these can be extremely complex and a veritable minefield.

So . . . it's "thanks for the suggestion   " but it is fraught with too many problems to pursue any further.

Regards


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Dave....

If you just extracted my summary (not the analysis part) which does not mention any dealers or manufacturers, surely there are no legal consequences.

Of course its your decision in the end. 

Colin


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

You have a PM Colin


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## roger-the-lodger (Apr 21, 2008)

Zebedee said:


> *Follow up*.
> 
> Have discussed with other Mods Roger, and it's not as straightforward as at first it appears. :roll:
> 
> ...


Yes absolutely, on reflection I realise that the legal risks must be taken seriously and safely avoided. I'm sure it could be a minefield and so I understand your position.

But before you drop the idea entirely, one way you might avoid any legal risk at all is to suggest a set of questions that a would-be purchaser might consider asking a dealer and (perhaps also) a manufacturer/converter. That way, with due care in wording, you avoid making any implications about the performance of those being asked the questions. It goes without saying that no company or organisation should be named at any stage in the advice. Indeed, this approach has already been taken in a number of publications (magazines and books) so you would simply be adding your contribution to this.

If you are interested I would be happy to draft something for you to consider, but I won't mind at all on a personal level if you still prefer to steer clear of this kind of move. Be interested to know what you think, anyway.

Roger


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## 111728 (Apr 28, 2008)

Frequency and volume...........

Idea for a guide or recommendations are brilliant. But it has to have a bearing and mean.

That is. It is clear to see on this forum that the manufacturer with the most comments made about it will be the manufacturer who sells the most. As it will be the same about the dealer who sells the most. 

Think about it, Swift sell the most in this Country, so they will be the most debated, I do not know who is the smallest converor (maybe IH or Nu-Venture?) There will be least comments made about them,

Brownhills sells about 2500 units (their figures?) Lots and lots of comments about them. Johns cross sell about 50 new at most and similar used, accurate guess, Hence all praise for them. Therefore, if Johns Cross were to sell 2500 units, even with the best will in the world from Peter. His staff will unlikely struggle, as do others. 

Again, I like to be the devils advocate and try to read between the black and white, to find the grey.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

roger-the-lodger said:


> If you are interested I would be happy to draft something for you to consider, but I won't mind at all on a personal level if you still prefer to steer clear of this kind of move. Be interested to know what you think, anyway.
> 
> Roger


Hi Roger

No reason why you shouldn't do something in your own right, and put it in a suitable forum for the benefit of all. I'm sure it would be very much appreciated.  

I sent Colin a PM earlier, and although PM's are just that (_private!_) I'm sure he won't mind me saying I made a similar suggestion in response to his earlier post.

Maybe if you gave Colin a PM - I have no idea if he would be interested or not, but if he is I'm sure you could come up with something very useful between you. 

Regards

Dave


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## roger-the-lodger (Apr 21, 2008)

Hi Dave, 

Yes I could certainly do that. I'm just off for the weekend  (in spite of the weather forecast  ) but I'll PM Colin next week when I'm back.

Live a bit far North to make the rally I'm afraid - can't face that old M6 again! :roll: 

All the best

Roger


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Isn't that what the Company Directory is for :roll: 

I used Company A and they are crap because, I then used Company B and they were much better but still lack XYZ

All we have to do is to start using it 8O 

From a legal perspective just tell the truth and tell no lies or even half truths and you are bullet proof

Just a thought

Eddie


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

The problem is Eddie, as lawyers well know, there are different versions of the truth!

Colin


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## 111728 (Apr 28, 2008)

Lawyers love grey


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## roger-the-lodger (Apr 21, 2008)

eddievanbitz said:


> Isn't that what the Company Directory is for :roll:


Not exactly. The Company Directory is useful in exactly the way you describe, Eddie, but giving people better understanding of the pitfalls relating to the way MH warranties work, what they should look for in a handover and what they should expect in terms of delivery documentation - that's valuable too. I suspect that many people coming to the motorhome market for the first time think its a bit like buying a slightly complicated car whereas it's very different both technically and commercially.

I shudder to think how little I understood of this when I set out to buy just 6 months ago. I don't think I'm significantly more naive than most. :wink:

Roger


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Ah I see where your coming from now  Sorry for being dense


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

_*Johns cross sell about 50 new at most and similar used, accurate guess, Hence all praise for them. Therefore, if Johns Cross were to sell 2500 units, even with the best will in the world from Peter. His staff will unlikely struggle, as do others. *_

Actually we supply somewhat more but thats besides the point.

Unlike many other people, whatever the nature of a business, if I cannot do the job properly, I won't do it al all.

I have had business's with 140 staff, supplying many millions of spare parts annually to the radio, television and business equipment trades on a 98% hit rate next day delivery from stock which the major manufacturers could not do.

If one is organised, have the RIGHT staff and train them right, everything is possible but frankly as regards the MH supply, I am quite happy at the size of Johns Cross. Should however we increase sales, dead easy, get *organised *to cope with it.

Peter


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## 111728 (Apr 28, 2008)

Sorry to hit a raw nerve Peter, again, I do not clearly explain. I am sure Peter at Swift has more then 140 staff. But with the volume he produces, unlike you sell. He will have more negative posts. It is pro rota. Please do not tell me that if you sold 2500 vehicles you would not have a percentage that potentially would complain. Otherwise I will believe you have little to do, but dream, whilst thinking of little else to do other then tap keyboards.

The frequency of criticism (there's a better word!) will be dependant on how many you sell. I am informed the number your company is significantly small and as such you will be able to handle each customer accordingly. Which is great.


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## motorhomeviews (Jan 9, 2008)

Hi
Just wanted to let everyone know what a great day we had when we went to the Swift Factory Forum yesterday. Many many thanks to Kath and her team who gave a great presentation and to Craig who took our group on the factory visit. The visit took us through the whole process from cutting the wood to the finished vehicle and finished with questions and lunch. Must say I was very impressed by the attitude at Swift, very open and transparent about problems, willing to learn from complaints and accept suggestions from customers. 

Trev and Pat Eden


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## 115816 (Aug 21, 2008)

Hi Colin and everybody who responded to my post

I'm really glad that the engineer finally turned up. If only they had done this in the first place then all of this could have avoided!!!!

Anyway - regarding buying a motorhome. The reason for joining this forum was so I could do my research beforehand . I cannot afford to make a mistake. I would definately prefer to buy second hand but I thought if I bought new at least I would have a warranty as it seems motorhomes often do have teething troubles. I came to the conclusion that if you bought secondhand you could be lucky and get a great van at a great price or you could buy something which the owner wanted to get rid of because of all the problems it has! So it seems you can't win really. What has suprised me is the number of people who have major problems with relatively new vans!!!!!!!!

The other problem is where I live their are no dealers locally. Our nearest dealer which sells the van I am interested in is about 1 and a half hours drive away. Which is fine if you have an occasional problem but could become a real nuisance if you have major problems. I am also concerned about parking issues with a van and also whether or not we would make full use of the van due to the nature of our work. 

So basically it is a whole host of issues which are concerning me regarding purchasing a van and at present I think their are too many things going against it a the moment. We have enjoyed many cruises in the past and I keep telling myself that £30K would but me alot of cruises .

I guess in my heart I would still love to buy a MH but my head says not to for the time being anyway. Time will tell. We may well hire a MH next year and see how we enjoy it!!

Sue


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## maddie (Jan 4, 2006)

Hi Sue, don't be put off by all the negs think of the possitives :lol: 30k will buy a good few cruises,yes but it also buys freedom to come and go when you please., with a futre value (once your cruise has gone it is only memorys)Not everyone has big problems with there vans,indeed I bet you only hear of the ones that do.so ask how many have had / got problem free vans? and enjoy them lots
terry
edit BTW Swift are the only ones on here that are realy trying to get things right (perhaps they need to)so do not be put off them, just find a good dealer to help with niggly problems if you get any


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Sue....

I think one thing you have to keep in mind about Forums like this is that a lot of people who are very satisfied don't bother to join or if they do, don't post how wonderful things are.

In general I'm not a negative person but just sometimes enough is enough and you feel the need to vent your frustration and we have enough of that in our lives these days!!!

I too went through all the questions you are probably asking yourself. £30k is a lot of money and mine spends more time on the drive way than it does on the open road - but I wouldn't give it up for a minute -warts and all!.

Colin


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## citroennut (May 16, 2005)

Pixelpusher said:


> Sue....
> 
> I think one thing you have to keep in mind about Forums like this is that a lot of people who are very satisfied don't bother to join or if they do, don't post how wonderful things are.
> 
> Colin


ok here goes, :wink:

i'm delighted with my 'van, it has lots of space, storage and is comfortable to lounge and sleep in. it has everything i need in the way of heating, hot water and sanitary facilities. as yet i've had no problems other than needing new struts for the dropdown bed and a starter battery after 7yrs. the electrics did blow but that was not a fault of the 'van. i did buy it second hand and it was fitted with quite a few extras which has saved me a fortune, having said that i probably wouldn't have missed these items had they not been there.

simon


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## grumpyman (Sep 24, 2006)

I am possibly one of the converted, I bought my Motorhome 12 months old went through all the procedure to ensure the warranty remained valid. A problem arose and the Dealer did not want to know, Who did I attack the Manufacturer, why because I had seen on this forum them attempting to sort the mess out and probably that is their weakness ( in some peoples eyes). I got lucky Swift dealt with my problem and I thank them for that but I am under no illusion the DEALER was my point of contact. I remember a certain member on hear advising me to speak nicely to them ( no hints but Cab is part of his name ) wanted to punch his lights out, how right he was. BUT do not take this that I am saying speak nice to Swift your argument is with your Dealer, and I do really sympathise with your problems having spent such loads of your hard earned money, not happy next Motorhome will be a ?????? :wink:


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## Invicta (Feb 9, 2006)

I consider that I am a very 'seasoned motorcaravanner' having been one on and off since 1969. During this time I have purchased two secondhand ones and seven new-as I have got older I haven't relished the thought of sleeping in a bed that someone else has vacated!

I have ploughed through all 12 pages of this thread and now offer my thoughts and suggestions; firstly M/Cs have far more equipment in them now than our 1966 Commer Autosleeper. More equipment= more to go wrong!

One has greater choice these days, UK built, German, Spanish, Italian and US to mention but a few. So with more and more manufacturers of both chassis and conversions on the market one has really to rely on the dealer to know the product. 

I have made plenty of mistakes along the way particularly in trusting dealers only to find that I have been let down well and truly! My last one for example, an American RV, hadn't been earthed when the conversion from 110 to 220 had been done. I and any members of my family could have landed up as frizzled bacon!

I have purchased new models from dealers far away from me who were selling their wares at national shows I had attended. Consequently this has cost me dearly in both time and cash to return to them for repairs. A number one priority should be to purchase from the nearest dealer possible for one's chosen model, don't be taken in by all the sales talk by the dealers at exhibitions and shows. 

Thankgoodness at last after nearly 50 years as a motor caravan owner I have an excellent bunch of fellas practically on my doorstep looking after my treasured possession. I am referring to Motorhomes Repaired.Co.Uk that recently opened up on the A28 right next door to Brownhills at Chartham Hatch near Canterbury. What a weight has been lifted from my mind! No longer do I have to take my RV back to the dealer that could have had me frizzled to a piece of bacon to whom I have had to make a 200+ round journey. Now I pick up the phone and whoever answers greets me politely and sympathetically and says "bring it in anytime" not with the tone in their voices "Oh no, not her again!" Their mechanic Paul is worth his weight in gold in my opinion. Thankgoodness he hopped over the fence to MR.Co.Uk from you know who! 

I would suggest to anyone contemplating purchasing a secondhand M/C to take it somewhere like MR.Co.Uk for a through check before parting with one's well earned cash. After all if the seller has full confidence in the M/C that it has no faults and really wants the sale, there should be objection to this should there? We can have AA and RAC inspections of vehicles before purchase, why not motor caravans? 

Well that's my twopenneth for what it is worth. I have really felt the frustration and anger of all those who have had unresolved problems they had told us about on this site. I just hope and pray that Swift and all the other manufacturers of motorcaravans treat the purchasing public with the courtesy it deserves and that dealers show the concern that JCM does to its customers as I am reading here.


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## Wytonknaus (Jun 18, 2007)

The dealer we bought from only had to do a PDI, install the TV, fit the Sat Nav, fit a tow bar and fit a tracker.

On the PDI they missed a few things but the main bugbear was the fact the shower had a hole in the roof which had been covered over with masking tape, which was a failing of Swifts production (or rather a bodge by an incompetent assembly line worker). 

The TV had a cross threaded screw in the mounting which meant I could not remove the mounting to fix a better quality TV.

The Reversing camera/Sat Nav, we were advised, had been returned to Swift as the wrong one had been supplied, which turned out to be a complete lie as swift only supply one.

I went to collect a new trailer from Brian James at their factory but the electrics to the towbar were not working, I had to return home and investigate the problem to find that the electrical plug assembly had not been assembled properly, it could not have been tested after fitting at the dealership.

The tracker was not connected properly, the GPS unit was mounted in full view of the would be thieves on the dash and it was not connected or initiated with the supplier so it was as much use as a chocholate fireguard.

The response to our problems were woeful so we had no choice but go direct to Swift, who have corrected most of our problems. I would never advise anyone to use the dealer who supplied our van, the only reason we went to them though is because the Swift stand rep introduced us when we were showing an interest at the NEC earlier this year.

All this for only £58,000+. And these were not the only faults. I will have to wait for the other snags to be repaired by the time of the first habitation check.

You are in a completely different world when it comes to Motorhomes compared to a car for example.

It has really put the dampners on us buying another motorhome EVER!!!

To be fair though we love the van but would like it to be as good as we had hoped when we bought it. I will not name and shame the dealer on here but you only have to look at our number plate to see the supplying dealer.
Tim


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## grumpyman (Sep 24, 2006)

On the PDI they missed a few things 

And that is where the problem starts if all Dealers did this PDI in some cases at all then this may cut down some of the problems. I would be interested to see where a Dealer has carried out a PDI and then told the customer sorry not letting you have this van returning it to the Manufacturer.


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## 94055 (May 1, 2005)

grumpyman said:


> On the PDI they missed a few things
> 
> And that is where the problem starts if all Dealers did this PDI in some cases at all then this may cut down some of the problems. I would be interested to see where a Dealer has carried out a PDI and then told the customer sorry not letting you have this van returning it to the Manufacturer.


G
Have you been looking at them pigs in the sky again?



> told the customer sorry not letting you have this van returning it to the Manufacturer


Just as if......

Well should we start a.......the dealer missed this on the PDI?

Or the dealer was supposed to do this, but......................


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## 111728 (Apr 28, 2008)

What might help a lot of people reading all twelve pages on this post is how often do manufacturers/convertors have to process a warranty claim on a vehicle. That is, what percentage of vehicles have had to go back to have rectification work completed by a dealer, good or bad.

Reading this forum, not just this thread. I suspect it is a high pecentage. Which brings me back to how vehicles are first designed, developed, tested and built.

Then there is the issue of how the dealer attends to the warranty work.

Are there reliability tables or polls? That is, this manufacture makes 100 it fails 10 times, Another manufcturer makes 2000 it fails 90 times. No failures are acceptable. But it puts into perspective which have the best reliability as a percentage built. Or the satisfaction of warranty work completed.

The motor industry have them.

So even though huge volumes of people complain about Brownhills service on here. It might surprise people if they discoved they were not that bad when you consider the volume they sell.

I know from my experience, that if you had 3000 customers and 50 or even 100 were upset which is actually no more then 3% (so that reults in 97% presumably happy).It would appear worst then 8 to 10 complaining about someone selling to 100 customers. But if the 100 customers were to all post here. It would give the impression that the company selling or making 3000 was poor. When in actual fact 97% is pretty damn good.

Plus, my experience is virtually at the 3% write and complain, but few of the 97% write and praise.

I expect it is the same for dealers and manufacturers!


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

saracen said:


> Plus, my experience is virtually at the 3% write and complain, but few of the 97% write and praise.


Nail firmly smitten on head methinks!!


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## Wytonknaus (Jun 18, 2007)

Zebedee said:


> saracen said:
> 
> 
> > Plus, my experience is virtually at the 3% write and complain, but few of the 97% write and praise.
> ...


I would not class myself as a serial complainer but when the problems are so bad that it takes 40 manhours at Swifts factory to correct the faults and then not all could be completed I would suggest people are perfectly entitled to complain.

Why should purchasers who are happy with a product write and say so, they have only received what they were expecting, a van or car or whatever that meets up to the standard that was advertised. If that is 97% of purchases then fine, it is a pity though that you just have to hope that you are in that majority, not like us left very disappointed.

The worst part of having problems is not knowing if it will be fixed in a reasonable timeframe without having to keep chasing up the companies involved and seeming like you are hitting your head against a brick wall. All you want when you spend your well earned cash is the vehicle that was advertised, not one with faults.


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## grumpyman (Sep 24, 2006)

SandJ said:


> grumpyman said:
> 
> 
> > On the PDI they missed a few things
> ...


Sorry forgot to take me tablets again.


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Something else to consider and just a general comment.

In order to get my problems fixed Swift have been very active and the manufacturer of the Hob has contacted me and will be sending an engineer along to fix the problem. (A big thank you to Swift)

In the discussion with the Hob people they mentioned the Hob only had a two year warranty, so naturally I said that I have a three year warranty on the MH, what happens after your two years. Obviously they couldn't answer.

So, the question is....

What exactly does the MH manufacturers warranty actually cover? 

Do all the appliances they install only get covered to the extent of the original manufacturers warranty?

Colin


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## MaxandPaddy (Mar 18, 2006)

Nope!

The appliances are covered by the individual appliance manufacturers!

I have the Dometic engineer calling tomorrow...................another person to stir into the mix!

Thankfully he is a very helpful,efficient young man,I should know this is the third time he has visited in 10 months! :wink: 

Val


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## MaxandPaddy (Mar 18, 2006)

Sorry Colin,

I have read your post incorrectly!!!

I mean yes!

 

Must keep taking the tablets!

Val


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## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

*Appliance*

Colin

Swift cover the cost of the 3rd year for the oven and hob.

Regards
Kath


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## Pixelpusher (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks for the clarification, Kath.

Colin


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