# What are the French doing now



## stonflo

On the news this morning that french are considering a ban on sat navs. :roll:


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## Techno100

Which news and why?
R U sure its not the ban on speed trap detectors they're discussing


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## tonka

NO....

It was satnavs that have camera detectors built in.. Then again that's most likely 50% + !!

And there is this thing about carrying a breath test (alcohol) kit !!
that may come into law later this year.. :roll:


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## erneboy

I did read on here I think that they might have a problem with sat navs which warn of speed traps in the mapping, Alan.


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## peribro

Since you can now readily install apps on GPS equipped smartphones that will also alert you to camera locations, then presumably the French are also going to ban mobile phones! Realistically the most they could presumably do would be to make it an offence to have a satnav or mobile phone with the camera location software installed on it. You can just imagine the fun and games with motorists who get flagged down desperately trying to uninstall inconspicuously the software whilst coming to a halt!


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## 100127

A crossed thread here I think. A Mod will sort it no doubt.

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-1179503.html#1179503


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## airstream

*Speed Cams*

As the proud? new owner of a TomTom Via and trying to get to grips with it I discovered that when you connect to TT "your tomtom" the speed camera locations in France are automatically deleted
Ray TT novice


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## iandsm

*Satnav ban*

I understood from other sources, French media, motorhome magazines etc. that they want to ban satnavs with a built in camera detector, I didn't think this included satnavs with camera locations in the mapping or as POI. The two things are not the same. One is active and seeking out cameras, the other is passive and just suggests locations where cameras might be.

You can buy active detectors in the UK and presumably in France at the moment, these are not satnavs as hey have no mapping function just the 
camera detection. But either way whatever happens all one has to do is turn off the camera warnings on the device and it should be OK.

Do any French memebers have any more information?

Further Info. i just found this, it's from a site called Pocketgpsworld, a UK site which is pretty good and worth a look.
I dont know that the information takes things much further, but, it gives a flavour of what the French have in mind.

"Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:28 pm Post subject:	
From the AA Website:- 
The French Embassy gives the following advice regarding use of radar detectors in France. 
Under articles L413-2 and R413-15 of the French 'Code de la Route' (highway code), it is strictly forbidden to have such devices in cars in France, regardless of whether or not they are in use. Penalties can include fines of up to €3,000, confiscation of the device and of the vehicle.

This legislation does not apply to satellite navigation systems (SatNav or GPS). These can tell motorists only the location of fixed speed cameras, data which is already in the public domain."

I think i will check with the Embassy myself before I go to France this year, but it seems we should be OK.


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## SNandJA

Tom Tom France says
Changes in French legislation
From 4th January 2012, a new French law makes it illegal to be aware of speed camera locations while driving. If your device has the TomTom Safety Cameras service, you violate the law if you continue to receive radar and warnings may result in a fine.

How to comply with the law
You must perform two actions:

Disable alerts for France Radar on your device. [How to ... ]

Update your GPS with the locations of the latest radar. This will remove your device's camera locations in France. [How to ... ]
Note: If you use TomTom HOME to manage content on your device, and n 'are not subscribed to update the radar, you must manually delete the file radars for France in order to comply with the law . [How to ... ]

We are currently developing a new service for France, which will warn of danger areas, rather than radar. To be informed of the latest on this service, subscribe to this page by clicking the link Warn bottom of the page. We'll e-mail when additional information becomes available.

Switzerland
In Switzerland, the use of the TomTom Safety Cameras service is prohibited and we do not offer this service in Switzerland.

Other countries
Most governments and local authorities believe that radar service TomTom makes driving safer. At TomTom, we respect the law (local) and when necessary, we adapt our attitude.

The British government allows the use of the TomTom Safety Cameras service if too fast to avoid dangerous behavior on the road. In Germany, the use of radar warning equipment, such as "Stingers", is prohibited by Article 23, para. 1b of traffic, but the software related to radars are not allowed. However, no legal precedent does not allow for the time to confirm it.

In addition, the Government of the United Kingdom provides the following services on Radar Systems navigation:
"The Government will not ban devices using GPS (Global Positioning System) to warn drivers of speed camera locations and speed limits known. In fact, they are consistent with the policy of the Government, which wants to ensure that the camera locations are visible to drivers, to help reduce speeding on the roads. "

However, you remain responsible for the use of the service TomTom Safety Cameras. This service can easily be disabled for each country on most of our GPS. [How to ... ]

Link
TomTom France link

In the link above the article is in French so the How to link is "Comme faire". Google Translate will do a translation if this all seems accurate we need to do a How to for all SATNAV systems I guess A Sticky requesting helpers for each system is needed?
I'll volunteer do TOMTOM Go 930T.....


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## Jean-Luc

We have similar law, since 1991, banning the possession and use of devices which can detect speed monitoring meters.
Potential visitors to our Fair Isle see HERE for details of current penalties if caught.


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## Techno100

Seems to be lots of confusion about radar and speed cameras? personally I believe it only applies to radar detection and not camera locations.
If you drive in France currently there are road signs warning of cameras ahead so the sat nav is only telling you what the signs are doing


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## SNandJA

Techno100 said:


> Seems to be lots of confusion about radar and speed cameras? personally I believe it only applies to radar detection and not camera locations.
> If you drive in France currently there are road signs warning of cameras ahead so the sat nav is only telling you what the signs are doing


Is the confusion that the word for speed camera in French is Radar? When you get Google to Translate radar from French to English it comes out as radar but applying it to the TomTom instructions I'm working on the translation is asking you to touch the radar icon on the TomTom but on UK TomTom it means Speed Camera icon?

My French is limited anyone out there clarify this?

So far I think on the TomTom Go 930T ie Go x30

GO x40, GO x30, GO x20, GO x10, GO x00, XL IQ Routes, XL Classic, ONE, Toyota Aygo, RIDER

Tap the screen to display the main menu.

Tap TomTom Services.

Tap TomTom Safety Cameras.

Tap Disable alerts.

Note: If the Enable button appears instead of the alert button Disable alerts, this means that safety cameras are already disabled.

_(I can never work out why they put the cross over the icon - in this case Disable Alerts - when the alerts are or whatever feature is enabled, why not just leave it as the icon... with enable or disable as the option word underneath!?)_


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## bigfoot

Le Squirt is getting more of a Napoleon complex. He is ensuring his country will benefit from tourism income-NOT.
It is unfortunate that to reach the rest of Europe generally we have to drive through this xenophobic nation!
If it legal in a member state of the EU it is acceptable across it all.Typical French using the EU to benefit only themselves.
Why not ban the French!


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## Techno100

The problem is most of us adhere to the speed limits? after all we're on holiday. It's the fact that we can potentially be fined in all innocence as it is very easy to not understand WTF they want from us :roll: 
Likewise the impending breathalyser test kit having to be carried? there are people who simply dont drink anyway 8O


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## peribro

bigfoot said:


> Why not ban the French!


I'd go along with that. With a little help from the Americans we saved them twice from German supremacy yet all the gratitude we get is a potential financial services transaction tax. I try to avoid the country as much as possible which is a shame as the country itself is very pleasant. Just a shame about the natives.


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## ThursdaysChild

Nothing like a good scare story to get through these dark days.

As Techno rightly points out, the presence of " radar controle " is frequently signposted, even if they don't do the decent thing and paint the cameras dayglo yellow. And the locations are publicly known - so plotting them in a satnav map cannot surely be an offence. What's the difference between the satnav giving a "ping" generated by it's mapping and my navigateuse telling me to slow down 'cos there's a camera marked on her map ?

No, what they are after are the devices which squeal a loud warning when they detect live radar transmissions from sneaky gendarmes hiding behind a bush with a speed-cam.

They deprive the authorities of fines and the police of convictions, and are considered by our gallic friends as not quite being cricket.


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## SpeedyDux

ThursdaysChild said:


> Nothing like a good scare story to get through these dark days.
> 
> As Techno rightly points out, the presence of " radar controle " is frequently signposted, even if they don't do the decent thing and paint the cameras dayglo yellow. And the locations are publicly known - so plotting them in a satnav map cannot surely be an offence. What's the difference between the satnav giving a "ping" generated by it's mapping and my navigateuse telling me to slow down 'cos there's a camera marked on her map ?
> 
> No, what they are after are the devices which squeal a loud warning when they detect live radar transmissions from sneaky gendarmes hiding behind a bush with a speed-cam.
> 
> They deprive the authorities of fines and the police of convictions, and are considered by our gallic friends as not quite being cricket.


Sorry, but that's a mistaken view of the new law. Radar detectors were banned years ago. Under this change French law now extends to criminalise the use of GPS devices with speed camera location databases. The basic purpose of this change in the law is to prevent drivers knowing the location of fixed speed cameras or "Radars" as the French call them.

The French government has said that all roadside warning signs for fixed speed camera locations are being removed. New speed camera locations are not being anounced. There used to be a publicly accessible official government website that showed all the fixed speed camera locations. That service is withdrawn. Shops are now prohibited from selling road maps showing the speed camera locations. All downloads of fixed speed camera locations are banned and GPS devices in vehicles can no longer show them.

We may not like it but if we want to drive in France there is no exemption for tourists.

SD


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## Penquin

This has all come from a whole package of measures proposed by President Sarkozy, he is aiming to cut road traffic deaths markedly (presumably because he wants the extra votes for his re-election in 4 months!) :? 8O 

the measures include banning warnings of radar either on sat navs or radar detectors BUT the sat navs issue is virtually impossible to do at present due to many vehicles having them pre-installed. He is asking for all manufacturers to program in a disability for France........ :lol: 

he also wants restrictions on driving motorbikes, the ability to cross roads when you want and many other things - most of the people we speak to regard him as one of the best jokes in Europe - he is NOT popular.......... :roll: 

the breathalyzer point ONLY affects French registered vehicles and it can almost be guaranteed that if "Les Flics" fined or tried to fine any foreign registered vehicle for non-compliance the European Commission would regard it as a breach of EU rules....... :twisted: 

mind, France believes in breaching them quite frequently anyway and does not really worry about such trivia, :wink: 

DO NOT PANIC - IF it happens you are not likely to be affected, you are much more likely to be stopped for "failing to stop" at the stop sign - the local police check that quite often and wait by the stop signs to watch all vehicles, they apply the "count to five while stationary" rule that they devise when they want, their rationale is that STOP means that, and then put the handbrake on and so on - much to the annoyance of any French registered car behind you if you try.....  

We will try to keep you informed IF / WHEN definite news comes out and such things actually start to happen....... 8) 

Dave


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## tattytony

I have just updated my TomTom and it removed my French camera locations, but as they warn you with signs and its too expensive to too fast i'm ok I guess :lol:


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## Penquin

The warning signs are supposed to be removed oer the next few months........

Be aware that many things he says have already been enabled in law and simply been put on ice, so when he says "NOW", the French officals simply put things into action.........

Only time will tell, and the simple solution is to stick to the laws as they are posted regarding speed limits - if your journey is SO important that you have to drive above the speed limit then your planning has gone awry and you have not left enough time.

In most situations the speed limits are quite sufficient IMO, whether it is 30, 50, 70, 90, 110 or 130 - it is simply a matter of making sure you recognise what limit applies at what time. That is down to care over knowing how the limits are displayed since many are only displayed by association - e.g. the 50 kph limit that applies within the town/village name as indicated by the name plate with the distinctive edge until the final cancellation with the diagonal stripe across the name,

BUT be aware the 10% tolerance does not apply as far as I know - if it says 70 and you are doing 71 you can be done.........

and speeding offences collected in France are now fed back to the UK - the databases will talk to each other.

You have been warned.  

Dave


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## rayc

peribro said:


> bigfoot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why not ban the French!
> 
> 
> 
> I'd go along with that. With a little help from the Americans we saved them twice from German supremacy yet all the gratitude we get is a potential financial services transaction tax. I try to avoid the country as much as possible which is a shame as the country itself is very pleasant. Just a shame about the natives.
Click to expand...

By the same reckoning I guess Dorset is not on your visit wish list? I will take my chances with the French enforcement over the zealots in Dorset any day.


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## tuscancouple

It has always been that speed detectors are banned in France. GPS location devices are a new thing. If you want to know where they are located have a look at this site, choose speed camera map and then France:

http://www.doowigo.com/maps.php

However having pushed the limits a few times in the past in France, it's a country where I don't exceed the limit by much these days as they now have zero tolerance! A few friends have had serious fines and bans on trips to Le Mans.

At this time there is no legal way that a fixed speed camera penalty in France can be actioned in the UK, however I'm sure it will come at some point. Mobile Mr Plod speed tickets are on the spot, no getting away with it!

Mick


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## Rosbotham

Penquin said:


> the breathalyzer point ONLY affects French registered vehicles and it can almost be guaranteed that if "Les Flics" fined or tried to fine any foreign registered vehicle for non-compliance the European Commission would regard it as a breach of EU rules....... :twisted:
> 
> Dave


Do you have a source for that Dave? If the Commission argument was the case, then requirements for red triangles, spare bulbs and hi-viz vests would similarly be illegal for visitors under single market legislation.

Not saying that the French couldn't have carved out an exemption for visiting vehicles, but interested in your source if they have.

Paul


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## Penquin

Rosbotham said:


> Do you have a source for that Dave? If the Commission argument was the case, then requirements for red triangles, spare bulbs and hi-viz vests would similarly be illegal for visitors under single market legislation.
> 
> Not saying that the French couldn't have carved out an exemption for visiting vehicles, but interested in your source if they have.
> 
> Paul


Sorry Paul, I read it on a forum elsewhere and cannot now trace it, it only related to the GPS with speed camera databases BUT, from the way TomTom has responded it looks like they are disabling it and not just for French owners.

You might like to check this totalfrance thread (a forum for expats living in France), where the interesting question has also been discussed about such things...... 

it appears that you can quite easily get the POI about such things from other sources, without having to subscribe to TT and then having it disabled by TT....... :?  

That MIGHT offer one way through, it is being talked about that TT will shortly offer a "dangerous location" warning which will be legal in France as long as it includes things like dangerous bends, narrow roads, steep hills and the like.........

apparently such a database has been approved by the French authorities..... (according to one of the threads on TotalFrance) :roll: 

Dave


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## trevd01

I havent put speed camera locations on my TomTom which we have been using in the van, and they don't come with the one built into my Landrover.

But the TomTom has something that the one in the Landrover doesn't, and is the one reason I'm not worried about having speed cameras. It always* tells you what the current speed limit is.

To my mind that is the most important thing a SatNav can do for you; remind you what the current speed limit is.

How often have you seen a speed camera ahead and suddenly wondered what the speed limit is?

*most of the time anyway, and I'm not convinced this aspect is updated as often as other road changes in map updates


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## SNandJA

SpeedyDux said:


> ThursdaysChild said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing like a good scare story to get through these dark days.
> 
> As Techno rightly points out, the presence of " radar controle " is frequently signposted, even if they don't do the decent thing and paint the cameras dayglo yellow. And the locations are publicly known - so plotting them in a satnav map cannot surely be an offence. What's the difference between the satnav giving a "ping" generated by it's mapping and my navigateuse telling me to slow down 'cos there's a camera marked on her map ?
> 
> No, what they are after are the devices which squeal a loud warning when they detect live radar transmissions from sneaky gendarmes hiding behind a bush with a speed-cam.
> 
> They deprive the authorities of fines and the police of convictions, and are considered by our gallic friends as not quite being cricket.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but that's a mistaken view of the new law. Radar detectors were banned years ago. Under this change French law now extends to criminalise the use of GPS devices with speed camera location databases. The basic purpose of this change in the law is to prevent drivers knowing the location of fixed speed cameras or "Radars" as the French call them.
> 
> The French government has said that all roadside warning signs for fixed speed camera locations are being removed. New speed camera locations are not being anounced. There used to be a publicly accessible official government website that showed all the fixed speed camera locations. That service is withdrawn. Shops are now prohibited from selling road maps showing the speed camera locations. All downloads of fixed speed camera locations are banned and GPS devices in vehicles can no longer show them.
> 
> We may not like it but if we want to drive in France there is no exemption for tourists.
> 
> SD
Click to expand...

This is probably the key to the confusion.... The translation of Speed camera/s in French is radar/s


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## nicholsong

trevd01 said:


> I havent put speed camera locations on my TomTom which we have been using in the van, and they don't come with the one built into my Landrover.
> 
> But the TomTom has something that the one in the Landrover doesn't, and is the one reason I'm not worried about having speed cameras. It always* tells you what the current speed limit is.
> 
> To my mind that is the most important thing a SatNav can do for you; remind you what the current speed limit is.
> 
> How often have you seen a speed camera ahead and suddenly wondered what the speed limit is?
> 
> *most of the time anyway, and I'm not convinced this aspect is updated as often as other road changes in map updates


Trev

Sorry to disappoint you, but having spent a few years driving 30,000 miles/yr using various satnavs I find their speed-limit databases far from accurate.

Geoff


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## mr2

SNandJA said:


> Tom Tom France says
> Changes in French legislation
> From 4th January 2012, a new French law makes it illegal to be aware of speed camera locations while driving. If your device has the TomTom Safety Cameras service, you violate the law if you continue to receive radar and warnings may result in a fine.
> 
> How to comply with the law
> You must perform two actions:
> 
> Disable alerts for France Radar on your device. [How to ... ]
> 
> Update your GPS with the locations of the latest radar. This will remove your device's camera locations in France. [How to ... ]
> Note: If you use TomTom HOME to manage content on your device, and n 'are not subscribed to update the radar, you must manually delete the file radars for France in order to comply with the law . [How to ... ]
> 
> We are currently developing a new service for France, which will warn of danger areas, rather than radar. To be informed of the latest on this service, subscribe to this page by clicking the link Warn bottom of the page. We'll e-mail when additional information becomes available.
> 
> Switzerland
> In Switzerland, the use of the TomTom Safety Cameras service is prohibited and we do not offer this service in Switzerland.
> 
> Other countries
> Most governments and local authorities believe that radar service TomTom makes driving safer. At TomTom, we respect the law (local) and when necessary, we adapt our attitude.
> 
> The British government allows the use of the TomTom Safety Cameras service if too fast to avoid dangerous behavior on the road. In Germany, the use of radar warning equipment, such as "Stingers", is prohibited by Article 23, para. 1b of traffic, but the software related to radars are not allowed. However, no legal precedent does not allow for the time to confirm it.
> 
> In addition, the Government of the United Kingdom provides the following services on Radar Systems navigation:
> "The Government will not ban devices using GPS (Global Positioning System) to warn drivers of speed camera locations and speed limits known. In fact, they are consistent with the policy of the Government, which wants to ensure that the camera locations are visible to drivers, to help reduce speeding on the roads. "
> 
> However, you remain responsible for the use of the service TomTom Safety Cameras. This service can easily be disabled for each country on most of our GPS. [How to ... ]
> 
> Link
> TomTom France link
> 
> In the link above the article is in French so the How to link is "Comme faire". Google Translate will do a translation if this all seems accurate we need to do a How to for all SATNAV systems I guess A Sticky requesting helpers for each system is needed?
> I'll volunteer do TOMTOM Go 930T.....


Have TOMTOM camera updates and just updated following the above & can confirm that French radar sites are removed from POI during the update

Barry


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## eurajohn

Penguin (Dave) I agree with most of your post but the info going around in my area (North West) is that the proposal on breath test kits will be for any driver here no matter where registered, be that true or false I know not.

Your warning on stopping at stop signs is very real and if caught disobeying you will be fined €90 and will not be allowed to continue your journey until paid, the same goes if caught (actual not by camera) speeding, the fine will be implemented on the spot no matter where you are registered

As you suggest the French are basically a law unto themselves and whether or not something complies to EU rules / laws really is of no significance a lot of the time, not just motoring. It's not until you live here that you can appreciate how often that is true.

When stopped by the Gendames and asked for driving licence the UK EU one was produced, only to be told by flic that being resident means you must have a French licence, upon explaining to him that a valid UK licence was valid throughout the EU his reply yes but you are in France not the EU.
he was of course wrong but that is a not uncommon attitude of the French.

p.s. This would have been sent 8 hours ago but the storm took out our electricity and only just back on


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## DTPCHEMICALS

What are the French doing now

Bu999ering things up as usual.


Dave p


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## Penquin

Totally agree with Eurajohn's comments about them being a law unto themselves; yes fines must be paid on the spot - or you can be taken to ATM and cash extracted, there is little tolerance and no negotiation......

The simple answer is to stay within the law as regards speeding and stopping etc, the rules are there for a reason although some of the junctions do seem a tad weird to say the least..........

If you do not like the rules and feel they are an imposition on your personal liberty as so many posters seem to hint at, then using the ferry to Zeebrugge and going the long way round to Italy, or going to Spain via Santander or perhaps going to Germany or Denmark would seem to be a sensible alternative........

but then you may encounter peculiar rules about A frames not being allowed (Spain), needing 2 red triangles (Spain), needing an aluminium warning square if carrying bikes (Italy), no foods to be imported which have been "enriched" with vitamins (incuding Marmite)or the like (Denmark) and so on.........

If none of those sound ideal, then the CC or the C&CC would be delighted to take your money......... and Scotland is a brilliant place to visit.   

I have been saddened by the almost racist comments that have appeared in these threads directed against our nearest neighbour.........  

Dave


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## hogan

I have just come from a French friends house here in Spain and he had French sat tv on the news re sat navs. 
The official news is that all sat navs with speed cam poi are now illegal 
for all road users. 
They have not decided yet re the breatheliser if non French motorist will have to carry one.


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## trevd01

nicholsong said:


> Trev
> 
> having spent a few years driving 30,000 miles/yr using various satnavs


...me too



nicholsong said:


> I find their speed-limit databases far from accurate.
> 
> Geoff


Like I said...



Trevd01 said:


> most of the time anyway, and I'm not convinced this aspect is updated as often as other road changes in map updates


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## Penquin

trevd01 said:


> most of the time anyway, and I'm not convinced this aspect is updated as often as other road changes in map updates


totally agree, and the roads are several years behind anyway - we are frequently driving through fields according to TT with them trying to turn us onto every farm track in the area while we are actually travelling on autoroutes that have been open for several years.......

our maps are updated 4 times a year, theirs seem to be about every 4 years..........

so for them to have speed limits accurate is very unlikely since these change rapidly and often (usually downwards - rarely are you allowed to go faster than before) :lol:

There is one road in Exeter by the bus station that TT throws a wobbly at when you drive down it - it used to be a bus only road bt while they built the Princesshay Shopping Centre they made all traffic going out of Exeter (except bicycles) take a devious route using that bus lane......

That was started about 4 - 5 years ago and TT still has not got it right! 

We have also been taken along roads which have been made no through road part way along - no clue from TT........

The only answer is to use the Mark 1 eyeball and don't rely on gizmology........ It rarely fails, never goes flat, does not need satellite connections and is instantly on line for use....... :lol: and is accepted as legal in all EU countries without discussion :roll: 

Dave


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## ThursdaysChild

On a slight deviation - I have been looking at a new Garmin which displays in one corner the speed limit applicable to the road being driven upon. To achieve this, the mapping data must include every entry into and exit from ( or change within ) speed controlled areas.

This will tell me when I enter ( for example ) a 50kph area and when I leave it. That is tantamount to telling me that there may be a "radar" device in the vicinity.

How does that stack up if "radar" POI's are banned ?


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## SNandJA

ThursdaysChild said:


> On a slight deviation - I have been looking at a new Garmin which displays in one corner the speed limit applicable to the road being driven upon. To achieve this, the mapping data must include every entry into and exit from ( or change within ) speed controlled areas.
> 
> This will tell me when I enter ( for example ) a 50kph area and when I leave it. That is tantamount to telling me that there may be a "radar" device in the vicinity.
> 
> How does that stack up if "radar" POI's are banned ?


Can't think that this would be an issue. I find that this is a good feature on the TomTom which displays what it believes the speed limit is for a particular road. Doesn't always get it right. I have a Renault with built in SATNAV (Carminat System) which doesn't have this feature and I miss it after using the TT in the van.


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## Stanner

Penquin said:


> There is one road in Exeter by the bus station that TT throws a wobbly at when you drive down it - it used to be a bus only road bt while they built the Princesshay Shopping Centre they made all traffic going out of Exeter (except bicycles) take a devious route using that bus lane......
> 
> That was started about 4 - 5 years ago and TT still has not got it right!
> 
> We have also been taken along roads which have been made no through road part way along - no clue from TT........


Exactly my experience with the TT Mobile I used to use on a smartphone.

Within a mile of my house that TT attempted to take you over a bridge that has been closed to traffic for longer than GPS has existed, then the wrong way round a one way system even older than that and if you tried to get to Cambridge from Needingworth or Holywell it told you to use a "ferry" that hasn't existed in my living memory and when it did exist was a pedestrian only "punt on a rope".

Also in Witham in Essex it once took me down an ever narrowing road that lead to a footbridge over the railway. :roll:


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## musicbus

This is an interesting thread for many reasons. If most people were honest about this they would understand what the |French are trying to achieve, The reality is that a very large % of drivers drive well above the speed limit and slow down for speed cameras either well marked via road signage candy coloured stripes etc or by sat nav.

Whether we like it or not the law is the law. Speed limits whether we like it not are there for a reason. Sadly in this country they are used and abused to create revenue by being placed in the wrong places.

AS motorhomers we are in the minority when it comes to motoring and most of us travel well within the limits. Our sufferance is at the hands of others. 

I like the fact that should I choose my navigator 11 warns me but in reality I wont miss it. The eyes do exactly the same job.


If we dont break the law there is little to worry about. As for any excuse used by some here to hurl abuse at the French its about time you acted like thinking adults and engaged the brain before opening your mouth.

There are many countries in the world where the road rules are far more draconian.

beeep .. My own warning system has gone off.


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## pejow

have looked at a route on viamichelin thro France and where a speed camera icon is displayed it says dangerous location and the speed limit 
pete


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## ThursdaysChild

" As for any excuse used by some here to hurl abuse at the French its about time you acted like thinking adults and engaged the brain before opening your mouth. "

Come, come. No one has hurled any abuse. Some have made observations on the behaviour and attitude of some French authorities. And two of the contributors live in France and are therefore eminently qualified to pass comment.

" There are many countries in the world where the road rules are far more draconian. "

So that makes " less draconian " ok then ?


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## rayc

The title of the topic is "What are the French doing now" and the OP states that the French are considering banning sat navs.
Four pages on and I am still none the wiser as to what is likely to be implemented this year.

What are the French authorities currently publicising as to the implementation of these laws? Are all French drivers currently getting rid of their Sat Navs which have camera locations on them? Are French drivers buying up the stocks of one shot breathalysers?

I would appreciate more hard facts than opinions, with the caveat that it is an open forum and people can post what they like within the rules.

Ray


----------



## iandsm

*France*



Penquin said:


> Totally agree with Eurajohn's comments about them being a law unto themselves; yes fines must be paid on the spot - or you can be taken to ATM and cash extracted, there is little tolerance and no negotiation......
> 
> The simple answer is to stay within the law as regards speeding and stopping etc, the rules are there for a reason although some of the junctions do seem a tad weird to say the least..........
> 
> If you do not like the rules and feel they are an imposition on your personal liberty as so many posters seem to hint at, then using the ferry to Zeebrugge and going the long way round to Italy, or going to Spain via Santander or perhaps going to Germany or Denmark would seem to be a sensible alternative........
> 
> but then you may encounter peculiar rules about A frames not being allowed (Spain), needing 2 red triangles (Spain), needing an aluminium warning square if carrying bikes (Italy), no foods to be imported which have been "enriched" with vitamins (incuding Marmite)or the like (Denmark) and so on.........
> 
> If none of those sound ideal, then the CC or the C&CC would be delighted to take your money......... and Scotland is a brilliant place to visit.
> 
> I have been saddened by the almost racist comments that have appeared in these threads directed against our nearest neighbour.........
> 
> Dave


Couldn't agree more, particularly about the almost racist comments. I imagine they may seem offensive to a French person reading them. The French might well take the view, "when you come to our country you live by our rules", which I believe i have heard uttered here in the UK in relation to visitors/imigrants.

Some would do well to remember that France is motorhoming heaven, well it is as far as I am concerned. I think it a very small price to pay to abide by French motoring law for the privilege of visiting the country.

Of course the law applies to everyone in France, including the French, visitors have not been singled out. So If you don't like it the answer is simple, take France off your list of places to visit or drive through.


----------



## Penquin

rayc said:


> What are the French authorities currently publicising as to the implementation of these laws? Are all French drivers currently getting rid of their Sat Navs which have camera locations on them? Are French drivers buying up the stocks of one shot breathalysers?
> 
> I would appreciate more hard facts than opinions, with the caveat that it is an open forum and people can post what they like within the rules.
> 
> Ray


There has not been any local "authority view" that I have seen, we were told about Sarkozy's statement and things move quietly until suddenly they are in force, the French authorities do not go out of their way to publicise what they are doing until it is enabled.

There have been some removal of speed camera signs that I am aware of, but no definitive statements in the local press. Reports on TV have the same caveat that all such reports have.

That is why the CC are still taking the line that they are, i.e. no news yet as nothing has been confirmed.

Some sites still have lists of fixed cameras but do not state when they were validated......

Sorry, that is not the definitive answer that you want, simply because there is no such thing at present that I am aware of, most of it is based on various reports that have been read and interpreted - which is the normal way until things are enabled in France.

Dave


----------



## goldi

Afternoon all, I just hope the french are not going to cheese us off going with all the additioal rules. 
I fi they wanted to improve road safty then might I suggest reducing the depth of the culverts at the side of the road and or increase the use of armco.



norm


----------



## rosalan

I just contacted the French Tourist Office in London about the need to carry a breathalyser, they replied....

Dear Sir/Madam,
Thank you for your enquiry.

At the moment we do not have any information on the subject for the British drivers.

Bon voyage.

Do not hesitate to contact us for further information. 

Richard FIOLKA

Information Officer


Alan
:?: :?: :?: :?:


----------



## nicholsong

Eurojohn wrote

'When stopped by the Gendames and asked for driving licence the UK EU one was produced, only to be told by flic that being resident means you must have a French licence, upon explaining to him that a valid UK licence was valid throughout the EU his reply yes but you are in France not the EU.
he was of course wrong but that is a not uncommon attitude of the French.'

What was the outcome Dave?

Geoff


----------



## rayc

Penquin said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are the French authorities currently publicising as to the implementation of these laws? Are all French drivers currently getting rid of their Sat Navs which have camera locations on them? Are French drivers buying up the stocks of one shot breathalysers?
> 
> I would appreciate more hard facts than opinions, with the caveat that it is an open forum and people can post what they like within the rules.
> 
> Ray
> 
> 
> 
> the French authorities do not go out of their way to publicise what they are doing until it is enabled.
> 
> Dave
Click to expand...

Dave, Could you please inform us when the law regarding carrying breathalysers and SatNavs with speed camera locations is enabled? Have you seen a push by commercial enterprises to sell the breathalysers? If it were in the UK then the likes of the AA and RAC would be busting a gut to sell them.
Many thanks, Ray


----------



## Penquin

rayc said:


> Dave, Could you please inform us when the law regarding carrying breathalysers and SatNavs with speed camera locations is enabled? Have you seen a push by commercial enterprises to sell the breathalysers? If it were in the UK then the likes of the AA and RAC would be busting a gut to sell them.
> Many thanks, Ray


I have seen none for sale in LeClerk, Carrefour, Intermarche, Briconaut, Tridome or any other shops - so it is obviously not considered urgent in this part of rural France.........

Neither has there been anything in the English newspaper produced monthly for expats.........

BUT as I said, the French authorities do not go out of their way to make sure everyone is aware of it........ 

As and when or if, I hear, see or read anything definite then I will post on this and the other thread,

Dave


----------



## SpeedyDux

I've been researching this because my Garmin Nuvi has a database of fixed speed camara locations in France (out of date now) but I didn't want to delete it unless I really need to. I found an authoritative source on the website* of Maître Eric de Caumont who is a Paris-based specialist motoring lawyer. As near as you might get to our Nick Freeman (Mr Loophole to you!).

During his interview with France Soir on 27 November 2011 his view (according to my summary translation into English) was to the effect that it would continue to be legal to use old software that indicates the fixed speed cameras, and the law will not prohibit their use any more than it did in the past. Please note that I haven't cut and pasted his original comments in French on here for copyright reasons.

In a subsequent TV interview on 04 January 2012 (you can also view this on his website) Maître Eric de Caumont said in passing that the motorist is not legally obliged to hand over a satnav or smartphone to a police officer for inspection to see if it contains a database of fixed speed cameras. Interesting, eh.

[The TV interview was basically about a range of much increased fines for certain motoring offences that came into force on 04 January and if your French is up to it, you really should watch that clip.]

SD

*http://www.maitre-de-caumont.fr/wp/...utils-daide-a-la-conduite-cest-une-regression


----------



## DABurleigh

Have I got deja-vu? 

I seem to recall when GPS-based speed camera "detectors" became widely available in the UK the Police were apoplectic.

And the irony was that when they were re-marketed as "Accident Black spot" indicators they became even more apoplectic, only to be hoisted by their own petard when it became clear that the cameras weren't actually in the accident black spots but were often sited precisely to maximise revenue.

Dave


----------



## airstream

*New Software?*

Hi,
SD what about "new" software and when does/did new become old?
Just more confusion for my old mind

Why are TomTom deleting "old" software when an update is performed?

Regards Ray


----------



## baldlygo

Penquin said:


> .....
> I have seen none for sale in LeClerk, Carrefour, Intermarche, Briconaut, Tridome or any other shops - so it is obviously not considered urgent in this part of rural France.........
> 
> Neither has there been anything in the English newspaper produced monthly for expats.........
> 
> BUT as I said, the French authorities do not go out of their way to make sure everyone is aware of it........
> .......


The same applies here in Limousin - and no roadside camera warning signs have been removed - yet.

I will be saddened if the French follow the UK fund raising approach. It makes good sense to me to be alerted of danger spots. In reality, when driving I find it difficult to keep *EXACTLY* below the speed limit *ALL* the time. In the UK where there are frequent changes - maybe every mile - it needs to be the drivers chief concern - in my opinion *NOT* an improvement in road safety.

Is there anyone on here who can say they drive and are never guilty of exceeding a speed limit :?:

Paul


----------



## eurajohn

nicholsong, in your last post you asked "What was the outcome Dave? " I'll guess you were confused as to who posted it was me and the outcome was that it is perfectly legal to retain a UK issued EU licence and be resident in France so long as you do not break the law and require points to be removed (in France you start with points and lose them for every offence), if that happens then it is obligatory to change to a French one.

Dave (penguin) you will find the cheapie single use breathalysers at Feu Vert, Norauto and Auto Etape, for sure also most branches of AD, I also was wondering how long it would take the major multiples to jump on the band wagon.


----------



## Techno100

What is the point of carrying a single use one? if you're meant to test every morning after having a drink :roll:


----------



## Penquin

This article in a newspaper published in English for expats gives some ideas;

http://www.connexionfrance.com/Tougher-road-safety-rules-Claude-Gueant-13340-view-article.html

but it does not include any information about what vehicles will be included........... 

neither does it say that tourists will NOT be included....... 

I have not seen _Le Journal Officiel _ yet.......

Dave


----------



## grandadbaza

Does anyone know if it has to be a disposable one , as I have one of the battery operated reusable ones ??


----------



## rayc

Penquin said:


> This article in a newspaper published in English for expats gives some ideas;
> 
> http://www.connexionfrance.com/Tougher-road-safety-rules-Claude-Gueant-13340-view-article.html
> 
> but it does not include any information about what vehicles will be included...........
> 
> neither does it say that tourists will NOT be included.......
> 
> I have not seen _Le Journal Officiel _ yet.......
> 
> Dave


Dave, if you ever find out what testing Municipal Police do for drugs, as per the linked article, then I would be interested as currently the UK Police say they have no accurate equipmentthat can be used at the roadside. Ray


----------



## SpeedyDux

*Re: Satnav databases of speed camera locations in France*



airstream said:


> Hi,
> SD what about "new" software and when does/did new become old?
> Just more confusion for my old mind
> 
> Why are TomTom deleting "old" software when an update is performed?
> 
> Regards Ray


Ray,

Right. According to the explanation given by Maître de Caumont in France Soir on 26 November 2011 [see http://www.francesoir.fr/actualite/societe/outils-d-aide-conduite-c-est-une-regression-160615.html]

1. From 29 November 2011, under an agreement reached between the manufacturers of speed camera warning devices (GPS of course, not radar detectors*) and the French Minister of the Interior, henceforth the devices will be known as "Driving Aids" and the GPS location databases must only warn of "_zones de danger_" or what we might call "black spots" instead of fixed speed camera sites. The manufacturers will no longer provide updates for customer download purposes so any existing database of speed camera sites will quickly become obsolete. If you buy a new satnav or download an updated warning database, in France you will have to adapt to the warnings of black spots, and guess whether it is in fact a fixed speed camera site or simply a dangerous junction.

[I don't know whether Tom Tom has actually signed up to this agreement, but since they sell their satnavs just about everywhere they are hardly likely to wish to antagonize the French Minister of the Interior by ignoring this official policy even if it isn't an actual law. Perhaps that explains the reports that Tom Tom mapping updates are automatically removing or disabling the database of speed camera locations in France so that they conform with the new policy for motorists.]

2. Motorists who wish to continue using older GPS warning devices or fixed speed camera databases in existing satnavs can still do so. This is because the law has not changed. Maître de Caumont advised that they remain perfectly legal and he defies anyone to prosecute a motorist who does so. Internet sites that publish the speed camera locations have not been banned.

3. Radar detectors, i.e. those devices that rely on detecting radar waves, were made illegal in France in 1975. If you are caught with one in your possession, you risk a fine of up to 1,500 Euros and a 3 year disqualification, together with confiscation of the device and 3 penalty points on your licence (when you get it back, presumably).

E&oe - this is based on my perhaps imperfect translation of the article, and I do not take responsibility for giving legal advice on motoring laws applicable in France.

I hope this clarifies the position.

SD


----------



## rayc

Well it took 6 pages for the OP to get his original question answered in a clear way with a reference. 
Well done SD, If MHF still gave medals I would recommend you for one.

I hope we are now all agreed that Satnavs which currently have French speed camera locations will remain legal. I also hope the Gendarmes and Police have also been told.

Is there any chance of a moderator putting SD's response as a sticky?
Ray


----------



## jsmisfreeatlast

Whereas I have always thought it strange that Speed cameras should be advertised I do use my satnav warnings.. not because I speed but because on a long drive on unfamiliar roads it is quite easy to lose track of the current speed limit especially as these limits fluctuate so much more these days. Add to that the forest of road signs, increased traffic and the mental calculations to accommodate the French reduction in speed limits for vans > 3.5tons and the level of concentration left for safe driving is greatly reduced.

I also use my Satnav current speed limit as an aid to knowing the speed limit at any given time although the ping is set to high ie 10% + 2mph to be useful.

My understanding is that Satnav current speed is more accurate than vehicle speedo readings, the latter being overstated by up to 10% so it would be interesting to see how zero tolerence above the speed limit would work legally.


----------



## rayc

jsmisfreeatlast said:


> Whereas I have always thought it strange that Speed cameras should be advertised I do use my satnav warnings.. not because I speed but because on a long drive on unfamiliar roads it is quite easy to lose track of the current speed limit especially as these limits fluctuate so much more these days. Add to that the forest of road signs, increased traffic and the mental calculations to accommodate the French reduction in speed limits for vans > 3.5tons and the level of concentration left for safe driving is greatly reduced.
> 
> I also use my Satnav current speed limit as an aid to knowing the speed limit at any given time although the ping is set to high ie 10% + 2mph to be useful.
> 
> My understanding is that Satnav current speed is more accurate than vehicle speedo readings, the latter being overstated by up to 10% so it would be interesting to see how zero tolerence above the speed limit would work legally.


Could you please explain what you mean by "My understanding is that Satnav current speed is more accurate than vehicle speedo readings, the latter being overstated by up to 10% so it would be interesting to see how zero tolerence above the speed limit would work legally"?

My understanding is that :

The indicated speed must never be less than the actual speed, i.e. it should not be possible to inadvertently speed because of an incorrect speedometer reading.

The indicated speed must not be more than 110 percent of the true speed plus 4 km/h at specified test speeds. For example, at 80 km/h, the indicated speed must be no more than 92 km/h.


----------



## barryd

I generally don't speed on France or any country in the van but have been flashed a couple of times by cameras when I have.

I have lost count of the numerous times I have been flashed by cameras in and outside of the eu in a car but have never ever recieved a fine or any notice of prosecution. Not sure how it would work. I suspect they just don't bother with foreigners but perhaps you k ow different.

I don't have speed camera locations as poi. Don't see the need. Radar detectors as far as I am aware are illegal just about everywhere Including the uk.


----------



## jsmisfreeatlast

[quote="raycCould you please explain what you mean by "My understanding is that Satnav current speed is more accurate than vehicle speedo readings, the latter being overstated by up to 10% so it would be interesting to see how zero tolerence above the speed limit would work legally"?

Hi RayC..What I'm trying to say is that my understanding is that in-vehicle speedos are less accurate than Satnav measured speeds.
When my van speedo says I am travelling at 70 mph my Satnav is registering 64mph. Thus if my van speedo tells me I'm doing 71mph
in reality I'm only doing 65 ish.. 

Always an open mind so If my understanding is incorrect I'm always pleased to be enlightened.. :wink:


----------



## Penquin

barryd said:


> I generally don't speed on France or any country in the van but have been flashed a couple of times by cameras when I have.
> 
> I have lost count of the numerous times I have been flashed by cameras in and outside of the eu in a car but have never ever recieved a fine or any notice of prosecution. Not sure how it would work. I suspect they just don't bother with foreigners but perhaps you k ow different.
> 
> I don't have speed camera locations as poi. Don't see the need. Radar detectors as far as I am aware are illegal just about everywhere Including the uk.


The answer is that *it didn't used to work but that has changed recently....* 

now if you are booked for speeding, or other traffic offence anywhere in the EU it will appear via DVLA, they used not to have compatible database systems but now they can and do......... :roll:

And don't think that because in France points are knocked OFF for speeding that you will reduce any you have on your UK licence, you won't they will add to them and disqualify if you reach the maximum permitted........ :twisted:

Many speeding or traffic offences are dealt with in the EU by an on-the-spot fine, and if you do not have the money they take you to the nearest ATM to get it and do not release your vehicle until it is paid....

and French polce can often be found "hiding" in the trees along the sides of autoroutes, with a hand-held radar camera, or overlooking junctions just to check all vehicles stop........

there is no need for them to be "user-friendly", they are enforcing the law and act accordingly,

don't try arguing either, they also use the "attitude test" as to whether they will release your vehicle then or impound it at a place they choose, perhaps 100km away......

simple answer; stick within the law or stay in the UK where you are welcome to try to evade prosecution and will love the consequences....

Dave


----------



## Penquin

For those that have stayed with us so far.........

you may recall that I mentioned _Le Journel Officiel_ in this post;

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-1180211.html#1180211

If you are REALLY interested, here is _Le Journel Officiel_ for Thursday 4th January released from the French Government;

http://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/frameset.html

I cannot see anything contained within it about either speed camera detection systems or breathalyzers........

until it does it is only a discussion point I believe, in spite of what M Sarkozy _et al _may say.......

So watch this space becomes the most useful phrase........

I am happy to be proved wrong, but fell asleep trying to read through it all........ :lol:

Dave


----------



## SNandJA

*Re: Satnav databases of speed camera locations in France*



 SpeedyDux said:


> airstream said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> SD what about "new" software and when does/did new become old?
> Just more confusion for my old mind
> 
> Why are TomTom deleting "old" software when an update is performed?
> 
> Regards Ray
> 
> 
> 
> Ray,
> 
> Right. According to the explanation given by Maître de Caumont in France Soir on 26 November 2011 [see http://www.francesoir.fr/actualite/societe/outils-d-aide-conduite-c-est-une-regression-160615.html]
> 
> 1. From 29 November 2011, under an agreement reached between the manufacturers of speed camera warning devices (GPS of course, not radar detectors*) and the French Minister of the Interior, henceforth the devices will be known as "Driving Aids" and the GPS location databases must only warn of "_zones de danger_" or what we might call "black spots" instead of fixed speed camera sites. The manufacturers will no longer provide updates for customer download purposes so any existing database of speed camera sites will quickly become obsolete. If you buy a new satnav or download an updated warning database, in France you will have to adapt to the warnings of black spots, and guess whether it is in fact a fixed speed camera site or simply a dangerous junction.
> 
> [I don't know whether Tom Tom has actually signed up to this agreement, but since they sell their satnavs just about everywhere they are hardly likely to wish to antagonize the French Minister of the Interior by ignoring this official policy even if it isn't an actual law. Perhaps that explains the reports that Tom Tom mapping updates are automatically removing or disabling the database of speed camera locations in France so that they conform with the new policy for motorists.]
> 
> 2. Motorists who wish to continue using older GPS warning devices or fixed speed camera databases in existing satnavs can still do so. This is because the law has not changed. Maître de Caumont advised that they remain perfectly legal and he defies anyone to prosecute a motorist who does so. Internet sites that publish the speed camera locations have not been banned.
> 
> 3. Radar detectors, i.e. those devices that rely on detecting radar waves, were made illegal in France in 1975. If you are caught with one in your possession, you risk a fine of up to 1,500 Euros and a 3 year disqualification, together with confiscation of the device and 3 penalty points on your licence (when you get it back, presumably).
> 
> E&oe - this is based on my perhaps imperfect translation of the article, and I do not take responsibility for giving legal advice on motoring laws applicable in France.
> 
> I hope this clarifies the position.
> 
> SD
Click to expand...

Quite early in the topic I followed the link to TomTom France. The key section of what they were saying is

*Tom Tom France says 
Changes in French legislation *From 4th January 2012, a new French law makes it illegal to be aware of speed camera locations while driving. If your device has the TomTom Safety Cameras service, you violate the law if you continue to receive radar and warnings may result in a fine.

_How to comply with the law 
You must perform two actions:

Disable alerts for France Radar on your device. [How to ... ]

Update your GPS with the locations of the latest radar. This will remove your device's camera locations in France. [How to ... ]
Note: If you use TomTom HOME to manage content on your device, and n 'are not subscribed to update the radar, you must manually delete the file radars for France in order to comply with the law . [How to ... ]

We are currently developing a new service for France, which will warn of danger areas, rather than radar. To be informed of the latest on this service, subscribe to this page by clicking the link Warn bottom of the page. We'll e-mail when additional information becomes available._

I guess this backs up what SpeedyDux has posted regarded "zones of danger" and that TomTom France are working on the issue? Another point to look at in the first paragraph above is the use of the word MAY in the sentence "may result in a fine". This could cover the issue about existing and updated databases held on the GPS? Although the advice from TomTom France appears to be to update the system and thereby delete all data locating Speed Cameras (Radars)

Steve


----------



## rayc

jsmisfreeatlast said:


> [quote="raycCould you please explain what you mean by "My understanding is that Satnav current speed is more accurate than vehicle speedo readings, the latter being overstated by up to 10% so it would be interesting to see how zero tolerence above the speed limit would work legally"?
> 
> Hi RayC..What I'm trying to say is that my understanding is that in-vehicle speedos are less accurate than Satnav measured speeds.
> When my van speedo says I am travelling at 70 mph my Satnav is registering 64mph. Thus if my van speedo tells me I'm doing 71mph
> in reality I'm only doing 65 ish..
> 
> Always an open mind so If my understanding is incorrect I'm always pleased to be enlightened.. :wink:


Nothing wrong with your logic if it is as you say. What I am a bit unsure of is what you meant by "so it would be interesting to see how zero tolerence above the speed limit would work legally".

The Police have the power to prosecute you at 1mph over the speed limit as it is an absolute offence. They tend not to and allow the 10% + 2mph to take account of variables such as speedos and measuring equipment accuracy but they don't have to. 
My Rapido speed shown on my speedo and sat nav are withing 1 mph of each other compared to my Chausson where the speed difference between the speedo and satnav was about 5 mph at 70mph. It would appear therfeore that "Satnav current speed is more accurate than vehicle speedo readings, the latter being overstated by up to 10%" , is not a statement that applies to all vehicles, or even the same type of vehicle e.g. Ducato X250.


----------



## barryd

I haven't read all the links but are we saying that. If you get done for speeding in France or any eu country you can now get points on your licence back in the uk?

That can't be right If it's true. I haven't broken the law at home and I have a uk licence?


----------



## trevd01

So

If even if 'dangerous places' are not allowed as POIs as is probable, my SatNav, which is set to have menus (in English) has various custom POIs on it such as 'campsites' or 'FIAT truck repairs' has another one called - say - 'birdwatching', with a little bird symbol.

It would require the satnav to be removed and forensically analysed (and challenged in court) to prove whether or not such a set of POIs were recording a roadside spot where a bird was seen _or anything else_.

So as long as satnavs can have custom POIs loaded, unless Twitter and Facebook are banned, or the fine for publishing coordinates of anything on the internet is set so high people are dissuaded from doing so, there are so many ways this can be got round _for those who want to_.



barryd said:


> If you get done for speeding in France or any eu country you can now get points on your licence back in the uk?
> 
> That can't be right If it's true. I haven't broken the law at home and I have a uk licence?


...hmm

that would be OK if your UK licence did not allow you to drive in the eu :twisted:

Me? I'll just continue to do my best to drive within the speed limits in whatever country I'm in. I will rely on my knowledge of the speed limits and relevant signs (lampposts in the UK, town/village start and end signs in France, etc) plus the speed for the road indicated on the satnav if necessary.

However my approach is not perfect, in over 200,000 miles of driving in the last eight years since my previous points expired, I currently have 3 points on my licence, and have been on a driver awareness course in the UK (grrr Dorset).


----------



## rayc

trevd01 said:


> However my approach is not perfect, in over 200,000 miles of driving in the last eight years since my previous points expired, I currently have 3 points on my licence, and have been on a driver awareness course in the UK (grrr Dorset).


Sorry your visit to Dorset was spoilt by the zealots of the No Excuse Campaign. It is no coincidence that this project was implemented with the aim of offering drivers Driver Awareness Courses rather than FPN or court appearances. The profits from the course, which exceeded £1m last year were retained by Dorset Police to fund amongst other things Dorset Roadsafe, the camera partnership. 
Incedentaly the number of road related fatalities increase in 2011 over 2010 but for some strange reason Dorset Roadsafe are not claiming responsibility for it as they did when they fell in 2010 from the 2009 figure.


----------



## erneboy

Just to confirm what Ray has said. I find the speedo in my current van tallies almost exactly with the speed readings on my sat nav. Any speedo error seems to vary quite a bit from vehicle to vehicle, Alan.


----------



## baldlygo

*There could be an insurance issue*



barryd said:


> I haven't read all the links but are we saying that. If you get done for speeding in France or any eu country you can now get points on your licence back in the uk?
> 
> That can't be right If it's true. I haven't broken the law at home and I have a uk licence?


When applying for UK car insurance my forms have asked details of *any* motoring offences at home or abroad - no time limit stated. Since I was caught for not stopping at a stop sign in Spain in 1968 I have always included it - I don't think I have been penalised.

If a motoring offences in Europe now get recorded by DVLA then I guess you would have to declare it to your insurer straight away or at renewal- if one didn't then maybe it could invalidate one's insurance 8O

Paul


----------



## rayc

Has there been any update on this March 2011 document?
http://www.comcar.co.uk/news/2011/M...ross-Border-Enforcement-Directive/0434002194/

It says "The UK, as well as Ireland, decided earlier this month not to sign up to the directive at this stage, saying that it woud have 'imposed significant costs on the UK"

Or this July 2011 one

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/n...o-limit-cross-border-dodging-of-traffic-fines

Has anything changed?


----------



## jsmisfreeatlast

rayc said:


> jsmisfreeatlast said:
> 
> 
> 
> [quote="Nothing wrong with your logic if it is as you say. What I am a bit unsure of is what you meant by "so it would be interesting to see how zero tolerence above the speed limit would work legally".:
> 
> 
> 
> The discrepancy can apparently vary through several factors including driving uphill, tyre pressure, speedo calibration..
> 
> Based on these descrepancies i wondered how safe a 71 mph prosecution be?
Click to expand...


----------



## rayc

jsmisfreeatlast said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jsmisfreeatlast said:
> 
> 
> 
> [quote="Nothing wrong with your logic if it is as you say. What I am a bit unsure of is what you meant by "so it would be interesting to see how zero tolerence above the speed limit would work legally".:
> 
> 
> 
> The discrepancy can apparently vary through several factors including driving uphill, tyre pressure, speedo calibration..
> 
> Based on these descrepancies i wondered how safe a 71 mph prosecution be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Despite many requests for information on UK driver forums nobody has come up with evidence that they have been accused of speeding at 1mph over the UK speed limit.
> If they were and declined the offer of the FPN or Driver Awareness Course then it would be up to the CPS to take it to court and for them to convince the court beyond reasonable doubt of the offence.
> In my opinion it is an acedemic discussion and I think you are far more likely to be accused of the lowest speed that would lead to the offer of a Driver Awareness Course i.e in a 30mph limit 35mph.
Click to expand...


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## jsmisfreeatlast

rayc said:


> jsmisfreeatlast said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rayc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jsmisfreeatlast said:
> 
> 
> 
> [quote="Despite many requests for information on UK driver forums nobody has come up with evidence that they have been accused of speeding at 1mph over the UK speed limit.
> If they were and declined the offer of the FPN or Driver Awareness Course then it would be up to the CPS to take it to court and for them to convince the court beyond reasonable doubt of the offence.
> In my opinion it is an acedemic discussion and I think you are far more likely to be accused of the lowest speed that would lead to the offer of a Driver Awareness Course i.e in a 30mph limit 35mph.
> 
> 
> 
> Rayc.
> Yes and no on the academic front.. my comment was originally based on Penguin's post on the 5/01/2012. in which it says that the 10% leeway will not be applied.
> 
> John.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## wunnell

Penquin said:


> I have been saddened by the almost racist comments that have appeared in these threads directed against our nearest neighbour.........
> 
> Dave


It's a shame that you're saddened Dave, it's not racism on my part, I have no fondness for a neighbour who thinks rules do not apply to them, who in days past burned truckloads of our lamb without punishment, who allow illegal immigrants to travel through their country and set up residence on our border on their side of "le" channel...


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## wunnell

barryd said:


> Don't see the need. Radar detectors as far as I am aware are illegal just about everywhere Including the uk.


Sorry Barry, but Radar dectors were made legal in the UK sometime in the '90's if memory serves. I got a Snooper and then the police started cutting back on radar and laser guns and went on a spending spee buying Gatso and other fixed cameras LOL


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## Penquin

wunnell said:


> It's a shame that you're saddened Dave, it's not racism on my part, I have no fondness for a neighbour who thinks rules do not apply to them, who in days past burned truckloads of our lamb without punishment, who allow illegal immigrants to travel through their country and set up residence on our border on their side of "le" channel...


I don't think that I made a comment against you in person on my post, if you read through the posts preceeding my one you will probably see that I had not referred to anyone .......

but made a general comment about the nature of some of the comments on that thread.

You seem to have dragged this thread up from somewhere for some reason, I am not sure why since you had not posted on it before my comment so it cannot possibly be said that I was having a go at you.

You have come back at me, but not at others, which I find somewhat peculiar........

your comments about the French allowing potential illegal immigrants to travel across France to the coast of LA MANCHE (not Le.....) I totally agree with you - I have no understanding of why that is permitted, but presume it is just one of the many examples that I quoted; 8O

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-1179581.html#1179581

or

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-1179937.html#1179937

so that point that you made about them doing their own thing I totally agree with you......

I think that most people would agree that the French do have this habit of only using rules that they want when they want them, they also seem immune to EC rulings as was evidenced by their destroying meat that had been legally imported simply because they didn't want it at the time...... :roll:

So, far from differing in opinions I agree with your thoughts but still do not like any comments made against one group of people. The solution is simple, as I said, if you do not like the risks of encountering peculiar French rules, don't go to France, in exactly the same way that I would advise that if you tow a car on an A frame it makes sense to avoid going to Spain........ 

No animosity from me there at all.... 8O

Dave


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## raynipper

Anyway, have we all turned off the fixed radar warning in our Sat Navs..????? Or have some spent big bucks on getting their units reprogrammed..???

Ray.


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## DTPCHEMICALS

Je suis ignorant.

Dave p


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## baldlygo

raynipper said:


> Anyway, have we all turned off the fixed radar warning in our Sat Navs..????? Or have some spent big bucks on getting their units reprogrammed..???


I have switched off camera warnings off on my Tomtom One(v3) but I still have it set to warn me if I'm exceeding the speed limit.
I had an email from Tomtom to say they have now released their official approved French 'danger spot' database but I don't think it is compatible with my version of TT.

Paul


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## ThursdaysChild

I'm not sure I understand how le flic will know what my satnav is doing. It doesn't transmit, and I'm sure the beeps are not audible outside the van.
Will there be roadside checks, service area quarantines or just a check when they get you for something else ?


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## Penquin

No one knows how (or even if) the French police will try to enforce this new piece of legislation....... 8O 

The likelihood of the average French police officer being conversant with *all* the different versions of GPS AND able to check seems slight to say the least - many of us struggle with the mutliple options that are available on our sole item. :?

I suspect the approach will be one that they have asked/told the manufacturers that they have to comply - hence the new warnings from TT _et al_ and the "danger spots" upgrade. 

Unless you are suddenly seen to slow down when approaching an unmarked speed camera it seems unlikely that they will be able to detect such things and presumably eventually all GPS manufacturers will upgrade every GPS device so that the law is complied with. 

I will not lose sleep over them actually doing random checks at service areas or even if stopped for e.g. failing to stop at a stop sign since that would be likely to produce long delays while they try to figure out how the thing works - particularly if it is working in a language that is not their native one......... :roll:

Dave


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## raynipper

Not saying the Police will check Dave but as there are only about 4 or 5 common vehicle GPS units in use and they all tend to follow the same format it would take plod just a few seconds to show you how clever he is.

I am constantly changing languages and thumbing through foreign menus on Phones, GPS, Digi boxes and other electronic goods.

Ray.


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## nicholsong

Suggestion

Flic stops you - quickly change language to Czech/Polish? and shrug shoulders!


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