# How much to feed puppy (not for those of delicate nature!)



## taz (Sep 28, 2005)

Hi

Have now had Sam for just over a week and he is settling in really well. All good except for the biting! Nothing quite like a puppy attached to the back of your ankle first thing in the morning

I have him on Skinners Field and Trial Puppy but am a little confused as to how much to feed him. The bag says that at 3-11 weeks, if he is 1-3kg the feed is 80-185g/day and if he is 3-5kg he should get 185-225g/day. He is currently just under 3kg and is eating only about 140g/day. 

The KC puppy book says that the right amount of food should give dark firm stools but even with only eating 140g Sams poo is pale and quite soft and is loose towards the end especially first thing in the morning.

I obviously don't want to underfeed him but don't want to over feed either. I am going to cut out any treats today (he has small amounts of hot-dog sausage for training) and see if that helps.

How much would you advise that he is fed or should I be guided by his poo as the KC book suggests?

Sorry to raise this in the morning!!

Thanks for and help

Sally


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## Hezbez (Feb 7, 2009)

Have a read at this thread;

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/189896-dry-dog-food-index.html

I'm feeding my 10 week pup Fish4puppies (Fish4dogs) - nice firm, dark, minimal smell stools. Because it's high protein with no bulking agents/grains the majority of the food is utilised, resulting in minimal output.

Enjoy your pup - I'm still getting the puppy biting too!


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## taz (Sep 28, 2005)

Thanks Hezbez will read through that.

Sam was on Red Mills Excel when I got him and I have gradually moved him to Skinners on advice from another breeder. Fish4dogs has also been highly recommended and I had a puppy taster pack arrive yesterday. Tried Sam with one of the Tasty Star treats - not over keen! 
Reluctant to swap him again at the moment but just need to get the quantities sorted for him.
How are you controlling the biting? I have tried yelping and ignoring but not having much impact at the moment. I especially like the flying lunge at the back of my legs, where he tries to attach himself to my midcalf, but has run away before i can do anything about it.
Puppies eh - i'd forgotten about this bit!
Sally


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Best way to stop the biting is with a water pistol or sqeezy lemon, but you have to hit him with it immediately as he attacks or he will not make the connection. Shooting him as he runs away will probably become a game, and will actually encourage the biting. Chasing him after he has chewed your leg will be wonderful - for him! What a great game . . . so it will actively encourage the biting!! 

Any correction has to be unpleasant for him - his mother would give him a good belting if he did it too much to her! :roll: If water alone doesn't work, add a _*little *_drop of either lemon juice or vinegar, just enough so you can smell it fairly strongly. Such a weak solution won't harm him, but they hate it.

As for the feeding - much of the "professional" advice is designed to make you buy expensive special puppy food. How did they survive without it a few years ago? :roll: Feed him four times a day and let him eat as much as he wants while he is tiny. We left food down all the time when Gracie was little, so she would realise it was always available and she didn't need to wolf it down as soon as it arrived.

They are a lot smarter than we give them credit for, even when they are tiny, and several million years of evolution has equipped them pretty well. You can control his food intake when he has more or less stopped growing, if you need to. Otherwise I wouldn't worry about quantity too much, and I certainly wouldn't be examining his dollops every time he went!! 8O

Don't give them anything that is advertised on telly either. Most of it is rubbish. Autarchy is probably one of the best complete foods. It's used extensively by the agility trainers round here, and it comes in puppy varieties. Some of that with just a little of something to flavour it - say a bit of sardine, chicken or similar. I wouldn't want to eat the same dry chaff every day, and nor would the dog. :wink: Ours has a little of whatever we are eating as a flavouring, and last week the vet complimented Mrs Zeb on her excellent condition.

Hope this helps a bit. It's only one opinion of course, so you decide.

Dave


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## taz (Sep 28, 2005)

Thanks Dave - will give the water pistol a try. He's a feisty little devil at the moment and really need to get a grip on how to stop him leading with his teeth.
The whole food issue is a minefield isn't it. One nutritionist recommended Autarky to me but then I have just read on the thread mentioned above by Hezbez that it falls into the Poor Category. 
At the moment Skinners seems to suit him, I am just confused by the feeding guidelines. Like you say I am hoping to a certain extent, as he is not a greedy puppy, that he will self-regulate. If he asks for food I know that he is hungry as he is not a scoffer - tends to pick a biscuit at a time and sit to one side to eat it.
Thanks again for your advice
Sally


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi again Sally

If it's really difficult to stop the little swine "_leading with his teeth_" (which is all a big game to him) you may have to go a bit further.

Don't hit him if you can help it - *unless *he bites your hand and you can give him a sharp flick across the muzzle with your finger tips as he nips. _(If you raise your hand to smack him he will probably become "hand-shy" and cower back whenever you raise your hand again. You do not want that!!)_

Try using sweeties as an alternative. Positive reinforcement is always the most effective, but it can take longer initially and you will have to devote the time and patience. Yell at him as he comes into the attack and make him stop dead, then quickly give him a sweetie and tell him what a good dog he is. _(You don't have to believe it - just make sure he does!! :lol: )_

We still use the dry cat food - Go-Cat or suchlike. A big box is only about a quid and the pieces are tiny so they will not ruin his diet. Nothing in them will hurt him either, but I bet he will love them.

Never feed him sweeties unless he has done something to deserve them though. This is basic Skinnerian "Operant Conditioning" and relies entirely upon cause and effect. Doing something good causes a sweetie to appear!!  In this instance the sweets *must *be associated in his mind with *not *biting!

Give it a go - and use the sweeties as a basis for all his training. They can be relied upon for life once the pattern is established. For example - Gracie (normally very well behaved :roll: ) started hiding down the garden late at night, and she's black so we can't see her. When she eventually came in we didn't scold her, but told her she was a good dog and put a few bits of Go-Cat on the hearth.

After only the third lot of Go-Cat treats she came belting in, straight to the hearth to get her sweeties. That's when "Intermittent Reinforcement" begins. Once established, do *not *reward every time. Reward intermittently about every third or fourth event, then to the dog it becomes just like a one armed bandit. Never quite knowing whther the sweeties will be there is a far stronger inducement than getting them every time! But the pattern of behavious has to be well established first so the dog knows *why *he is being rewarded.

Hope this helps

Dave


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## Jonas-Crown (May 9, 2012)

Re the loose stools. Have you wormed him since he came to you? He should be wormed every two weeks, up to six months with something like Drontal puppy suspension.

As a matter of interest, what breed is Sam?

I breed Scotties as a hobby and find that either Butchers or pedigree puppy food is as good as anything.

Wilma last week


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## KeithChesterfield (Mar 12, 2010)

Have a look at this site for advice on feeding your dog - www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/

We always left a bowl of food ready for our puppy, he's five now, and he would eat whenever he felt hungry.

He's quite content now with two 'scoops', about 150 gms each, of dried food a day.

We used Beta puppy and dog food for about three years until a dog nutritional expert told us what it actually contained.

He recommended another much cheaper brand and since then our dogs has been even more lively, glossier coat and what comes out of the rear end is considerably better than the frequent sloppy mess that emerged after eating the well known branded product.

All dogs are different and what suits one dog can be wrong for another dog but I'd suggest you don't just go with the 'top' brands but do some research into what should be suitable for the breed of dog you have.

His stool problems may also derive from what he finds to eat throughout your house - our dog as a puppy was partial to any paper hankies and bags he could scavenge if they were lying around in the house.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

KeithChesterfield said:


> He recommended another much cheaper brand and since then our dogs has been even more lively, glossier coat and what comes out of the rear end is considerably better than the frequent sloppy mess that emerged after eating the well known branded product.


Quite so Keith. :wink:

I find it rather "_interesting_" (shall we say :roll: ) that breeders (and vets) get so many freebies from certain very well known and heavily advertised brands! 8O

They also give breeders "Your New Puppy" free food and information packs to give to the concerned new owners when they collect their pups. I wonder why??

Wherever there is a lot of money to be made, there will be coercion and even corruption. I have been told by those who are in a position to know, that Pedigree and Butchers are among the worst quality. They are very active in "supporting" the breeders, and spend a fortune on TV advertising - the money for which has to come from somewhere!!

Is that cynicism - or realism?

Dave  .

P.S. From Keith's link . . . _"commercial diets are promoted by multi-billion dollar pet food corporations and the veterinary industry, both of whom have a huge financial stake in getting you to feed these products."_


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## Jonas-Crown (May 9, 2012)

Zebedee said:


> KeithChesterfield said:
> 
> 
> > He recommended another much cheaper brand and since then our dogs has been even more lively, glossier coat and what comes out of the rear end is considerably better than the frequent sloppy mess that emerged after eating the well known branded product.
> ...


Of course that is your opinion. I can promise you I have never received freebies from anybody. The puppy in the picture was fed Butchers and I can't see anything very inferior about her.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Jonas-Crown said:


> Of course that is your opinion. I can promise you I have never received freebies from anybody. The puppy in the picture was fed Butchers and I can't see anything very inferior about her.


Not just opinion. :wink:

My in-laws were top breeders of Welsh bulldogs, they were both International Championship Judges, and John Burns is a family friend - in spite of the way he made his millions! :roll:

I am not doubting that you don't get the freebies - but as a hobby breeder you would obviously not be targetted by the big dog food companies. Take it as fact however, that the bigger breeders do receive the inducements.

_(For info - my father in law fed his dogs on tripe and other meat from the slaughterhouse mixed with biscuit and fresh vegetables, and he bred a number of international champions.)_

Dave


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## motormouth (Jul 3, 2010)

Zebedee said:


> , and last week the vet complimented Mrs Zeb on her excellent condition.
> 
> Dave


So pleased the vet is pleased with Mrs Zebs condition. Would have loved to watch him check her over. :lol: :lol:


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

motormouth said:


> So pleased the vet is pleased with Mrs Zebs condition. Would have loved to watch him check her over. :lol: :lol:


No you wouldn't!

She bit him when he inserted the thermometer, but forgave him when he ran his hands all over her looking for the chip! :roll: :lol: :lol:

Dave


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## motormouth (Jul 3, 2010)

Zebedee said:


> motormouth said:
> 
> 
> > So pleased the vet is pleased with Mrs Zebs condition. Would have loved to watch him check her over. :lol: :lol:
> ...


 :lol: :lol:


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## taz (Sep 28, 2005)

Hi
Thanks for all the advice. Sam is a working cocker spaniel (see photo below - NB his head really isn't as big as the photo makes it look!!)and I have checked with several people that Skinners is a suitable food and I am happy that it is.
He's a picky eater, can be a bit strange about his food bowl but will then eat whats left off the floor!
Opinions on food seems to vary hugely - as long as it suits your dog i guess its ok.
Thanks Dave for all the biting advice - lots for me to try. There's no reasoning with him when he briefly turns into "devil dog"!
Sally


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## Spiritofherald (May 18, 2012)

I think you're worrying too much. As others have said, let him eat decent quality food at regular intervals and he'll tturn out just fine. If you're really worried then get along to a vet to have him checked out.

Re biting; try the Caeser Milan method. This works by using your fingers in a biting motion, which is what the mother does to her puppies if they get too boisterous. You don't need to hurt him, the action of fingers lightly grasping the back of his neck should do the trick - firm but not heavy pressure is all it takes! It worked on my Border Terrier when he was a puppy and he's grown into a great dog who never bites anyone even when they might arguably deserve it! Oh, except when a broom or the lawnmower come out, for some reason I can't break him from attacking those - but at least he's not harming anyone.


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## Hezbez (Feb 7, 2009)

Ours changes from wee angel to wee monster and back again constantly. Just part of being a puppy and growing up.

When she gets the zoomies and runs around the house flat out every evening, trying to grab our legs and feet as she passes them, we call time out and put her in the hall on her own for a few minutes. It's amazing how quickly this calms her.

Just back from the vets - 2nd jag, wormer, flea programme, microchip, and a few quid lighter in the pocket!


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## taz (Sep 28, 2005)

Time-out sounds like a good idea will try that. Sam is so wee its really difficult to get cross with him.

Can't wait for 2nd injection and just a week away from walkies - am carrying loads of places but he is keen to explore on his own 4 feet.


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## Patchworkqueen (Dec 7, 2007)

*Do Food Comparison Website*

For anyone interested in choosing dog food have a look at this website.
whichdogfood.co.uk

Sorry don't know how to do the link.

Chris


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Puppies or even some adult dogs can take a week or two to adjust to a change of food.
Our husky motions can range from a cow like splatter to semi solid.
We have her on fish4dogs and she is better than other foods.
However the current product has had a change of formular from 55% fish to just 27%. They have changed the name too. We have two sacks of each so we shall gradually wean her on to the new formula.
Cheapest supplier i have found is
http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/fish...=Google+Products&utm_campaign=Google+Products

Dave p


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## 4maddogs (May 4, 2010)

Lovely wocker.

Skinners is a good food for a working dog (breed and behaviour not occupation)
I use CSJ for my 4 (3 springers and a working strain golden retriever) and they do really well on it. Just do not be tempted by "Bonkers" aka Bakers as it sends spaniels completely bonkers.

Don't worry too much about the nipping, just make it known that it is not on....yelping can help as it mimics the noise the mother makes. Or ignoring by turning your back. Personally i would NEVER hit a dog as I think you are saying it OK to hurt. Who wants a dog that does what you want because he/she is afraid of you? There is never any need for violence imho.

You probably know that a working cocker is a very high energy dog that must be kept occupied...working (don't do that as I am vegetarian, but the dogs behave like that), flyball, lots of running!
Come over and join the forum on www.nessr.net it is a rescue forum, but people on there have had spaniels (all types) for years and are a fountain of knowledge.

He is a lovely little fella!
Julie


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