# Retread tyres?



## Glandwr

Hi, what 's assembled wisdom and advice on reteads? When longevity in terms of mileage is not an issue are they worth considering?

Dick


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## BillCreer

Hi Dick,

There shouldn't be a problem as they are used a lot in the HGV world.


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## coppo

I would never use them on my MH, because i only use winter tyres on it and also safely is paramount on such a big, heavy, expensive vehicle.

I can understand you asking the question mind, with the ever increasing price of tyres, there just doesn't seem to be any good deals around. 

I do sometimes stick part worns ones on the car though.

Paul.


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## Addie

I'm shocked at anyone considering this for a motorhome in all honesty, especially given the minimal savings on offer - £40 for a re-tread vs £60 for a say a new budget Falken.

There should be nothing wrong with a re-tread in terms of safety but taxi / van retreads are largely unreliable in terms of performance, noise and wear since they are usually re-treaded by small companies using unknown tread patterns and rubber compound. 

This is unlike many Bus / HGV re-treads which are often done by OEM manufactures (as well as smaller companies) given the high initial purchase cost and short lifespan where the savings offered are greater.

From a resale perspective I wouldn't touch a motorhome with remould tyres, if you are prepared to cost-cut at such a basic level then what else has suffered or been bodged?


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## BillCreer

coppo said:


> I would never use them on my MH, because i only use winter tyres on it and also safely is paramount on such a big, heavy, expensive vehicle.
> 
> I can understand you asking the question mind, with the ever increasing price of tyres, there just doesn't seem to be any good deals around.
> 
> I do sometimes stick part worns ones on the car though.
> 
> Paul.


Hi Paul,

I would put remoulds on to my car before part worn ones. The trouble with part worn is that you don't know where they have been or where they have come from.
Quite a few do come from accident damaged vehicles and although they may look perfect there is strong chance they've been curbed and had their internal structure damaged.

Remould carcases are checked for structural faults.


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## Hydrocell

Hi Dick

If you value you’re Motorhome in my opinion it’s not wreath considering.


Regards
Ray


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## Addie

BillCreer said:


> Hi Paul,
> 
> I would put remoulds on to my car before part worn ones. The trouble with part worn is that you don't know where they have been or where they have come from.
> Quite a few do come from accident damaged vehicles and although they may look perfect there is strong chance they've been curbed and had their internal structure damaged.


You could say the same for any second hand car / motorhome - you have no idea how the tyres have been treated by the previous owner - squashed on kerbs, run under inflated etc - but once off the car you can check for any visual signs as best you can. 
My concern with remounds is the tread pattern and rubber compound is nothing like that which tyre manufactures spend millions developing and is 'stuck' to a tyre which could in theory be say 5 years / 40,000 miles old. The stopping distances and wet performance will be, without doubt, night and day.


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## coppo

BillCreer said:


> coppo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would never use them on my MH, because i only use winter tyres on it and also safely is paramount on such a big, heavy, expensive vehicle.
> 
> I can understand you asking the question mind, with the ever increasing price of tyres, there just doesn't seem to be any good deals around.
> 
> I do sometimes stick part worns ones on the car though.
> 
> Paul.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> I would put remoulds on to my car before part worn ones. The trouble with part worn is that you don't know where they have been or where they have come from.
> Quite a few do come from accident damaged vehicles and although they may look perfect there is strong chance they've been curbed and had their internal structure damaged.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Bill, I usually do stick part worn tyres on, i did read somewhere about quite a few remoulds not being of the best quality too.
The part worn ones i use are graded from £18 to £30, i always go for the £30 ones which are like new tread wise but as you say have no idea where they come from.

Paul.


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## Jented

Hi.
I know it was a long time ago,but one haulier would NEVER put retreads on the front axles,so from then on it stuck with me.In those days you could get Michelin "ReMix tyres",believe it or not,they seemed to last a lot longer on the back axles of 6-8 wheelers on quarry/site work.
Having said that,you can get faulty new tyres,had 6.Continentals put on a trailer,doing the servicing about a fortnight in and found blisters on the inside walls of a couple,it appears the air had made its way through the casing,they were replaced straight away by the tyre depot,so as the chant went every weekend."Check your wheel nuts and your U.bolts and don't forget the tyres".
With double drive units,(or a tag axle m/home) there are at least 4 tyres on the floor at any one time,so if one blew you would still be held up by 3 and hopefully control it to a stop,on a single rear axle.you well know how much rubber is on the road so,make sure its proper.
Hope this helps,i often feel the need for speed,so rely heavily on St,Christopher and GOOD BOOTS :wink: .
Gearjammer.
PS. That haulier was a well respected man,god rest his soul,they don't make them like him anymore sad to say.


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## tinkering

I would never use remoulds on a vehicle..that's to say a motor car or van which only has two wheels per axle.

Having in the past delivered used tyres to a retreading plant (Dunlop in Newton Abbot) I cannot remember the brand name on the recycled tyres..it was not Dunlop!!,sometimes the difference in weight between two supposedly identical tyres was quite surprising.

Over the years i have found that its far cheaper to go to the local scrap yard and buy second hand tryes for any of the trailors that I have owned

Les


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## coppo

tinkering said:


> I would never use remoulds on a vehicle..that's to say a motor car or van which only has two wheels per axle.
> 
> Having in the past delivered used tyres to a retreading plant (Dunlop in Newton Abbot) I cannot remember the brand name on the recycled tyres..it was not Dunlop!!,sometimes the difference in weight between two supposedly identical tyres was quite surprising.
> 
> Over the years i have found that its far cheaper to go to the local scrap yard and buy second hand tryes for any of the trailors that I have owned
> 
> Les


Yes thats the same as buying part worn as i do but Bill is suggesting that it is not safe to do this as you don't know if the vehicle they come from have been in a bad accident.

Paul.


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## SomersetSteve

Many years ago I had the tread "lift" on a retread, fortunately at low speed leaving the drive. Never wanted to risk a repeat at speed.


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## BillCreer

When the the inner structure of a casing has failed the you can sometimes see ripples in the walls but this indicates that the casing has failed and in a similar way to a hernia something is going to pop through the inner chords.
Trouble is that even if you inspect your tyres on a regular basis you can only see the outer wall and that is only a 1/3rd of the tyre.

I think most of the bad Press for remoulds is based what took place 30 years ago and good remoulds have the carcase x-rayed during the re manufacturing process.


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## Glandwr

OK I'll come clean, looking at new spec for spec and I'm talking £750-850 allround (6 wheels). I can get cheaper and snow rated retreads for about the same :? 

Dick


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## 113016

Hi Dick.
As an ex International trucker driving to hot countries, I can say that it is false economy to fit anything other than top quality tyres.
Don't forget that a M/H tyre is usually working towards the upper limit of weight allowance and don't forget that the body roll puts greater strain on one side as going round corners.
I worked for one company which ran heavy and used Michelin and we had few blow outs.
Another company ran lighter with cheaper tyres and had frequent tyre failures.
I personally will not compromise on tyres as they are very important.


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## Rudderman

*Retreads*

As an ex HGV driver of Chemical Tankers we were never allowed to have retreads/remoulds fitted to our tractor units, as they were not reliable enough, they were only used on our trailers.


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## Sideways86

*hi*

If you love your camper and the people in it dont even think retread, new only no question

I have rallied cars for years and drive 40K + every year dont entertain retreads

The whole structure of the tyre is under load including the sidewalls so putting new rubber on the tread area contacting the road is a very small part of the overall performance of the tyre

Just my honest opinion

regards


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## Glandwr

I feel some of the posts have implied irresponsibility at the best and downright dereliction of care toward my family and MH at worst. 

After a little research it would seem that they are probably based on prejudice based on historical myths. There has been a sea change in safety and reliability as far as retreads go in the last couple of decades. Some facts.

Since 2004 retreads have been subject to exactly the same standards and checks as new tyres, it was made a legal requirement in the UK then and now is a legal requirement throughout the whole of the EU

80% of aircraft tyres in the US are retreads

Federal and State governments fit them as policy on School Buses, emergency vehicles and fire engines

Here what was the DTI has wholeheartedly endorsed them saying that they make environmental sense saving considerable quantities of oil. Recommending their use on larger vehicles in local and central government.

Organisers of the Lombard Rally will ONLY allow competitors using retreads.

Almost half of all commercial vehicles on the road are on retreads. Many on their second and third reincarnation.

Tesco have recently put them exclusively on its fleet of delivery vehicles

Some countries in Europe insist that at least 20% of government vehicles run on retreads

Many, many London black cabs run on them. 

Many UK coaches run on them

Established companies such as Bridgestone, Goodyear and Michelin all make and market retreads.

I’m beginning to find myself half convinced. Rather than issue warnings based on prejudice from long ago (anyone remember recuts?) I would be grateful for any contemporary incidents/research that would warn me off.

The idea of getting a set of snow tyres for the same price as new summer tyres appeals. Especially when I know I will never do the mileage to wear them out.

Dick


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## Sideways86

*hi*

The Lombard is low speed reliability rally and not putting anything like the strain on the tyre that other vehicles and events do

However we all have our opinions and if you are happy to try retreads then why not it is your call ultimately.

Myself and others have only offered opinions based on our thoughts and observations etc.

You also mentioned aircraft and recutting, different scenario when the casing is moulded with extra rubber to start with to allow a recut or silly people cutting too deep ordinary tyres etc

Regards and safe motorhoming


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## Glandwr

Hi reference to recutting was to highlight a practice that I think was made illegal in the 60's/70's and not to illustrate anything that goes on today  . 

Considerable progress has been made with retreads. The chances are that many of our children are transported to school on them. That we ourselves ride on them when we hail a black cab etc. etc.

I respect your opinion and am not attempting to be confrontational but would like some objective research that backs it up. Anyone?

Dick


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## n4ked

*Tyres & other information regarding them*

The laws require that in order to be legal a tyre must comply with a number of legal requirements.
These requirements range from what the manufacturer must be responsible for - relevant sidewall markings etc - and what the motorist should be responsible for - correct fitment and condition of tyre, tread depths etc.
It is recommended that tyres are checked on a weekly basis for tread depth, tread condition, inflation pressure, tread/sidewall damage, any signs of irregular wear. If in doubt seek the advice of a trained tyre expert who will be able to determine the suitability of the tyre for further use.
The penalties for having illegal tyres are currently up to a £2500 fine and 3 penalty points PER TYRE!
The following gives an overview of the relevant points.
There are two important Legal Statutes that Relate to Tyres:
1.	The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986.
These regulations do not cover only tyre legal requirements but any area related to road usage and traffic. They include areas related to dimensions and manoeuvrability, brakes, wheels, springs, tracks, steering, vision, instruments, fuel, minibuses, power to weight ratio, protective systems, control of emissions, plates, markings, testing and inspection and conditions related to use.
2.	Motor Vehicle Tyres (Safety) Regulations 1994
Which cover the requirements relating to the supply of tyres and areas such as E markings, Part Worn tyres and Re-treads.
The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986
Regulation Number	Subject Area
Regulation 24	Indicates the types of vehicle covered and also temporary use spares
Regulation 25	Details tyre loads and speed ratings
Regulation 26	Stipulates the requirements for tyre mixing
Regulation 27	Details condition and Maintenance of Tyres

Tyre Mixing
Must NOT have radial tyres on the front wheels and cross ply tyres on the rear wheels, it is also illegal to have a cross ply tyre on one side with a radial on the other.
All steerable axles must be fitted with tyres of the same construction, as must all driven axles that are not steerable. An axle includes two stub axles that form a pair, and an articulated vehicle is treated as two separate vehicles.

Unsuitability
All tyres must have a service description (i.e. load and speed index)
If the vehicle was to operate outside the service description indicated on the sidewall e.g. at a higher speed or overloaded then the tyres would be deemed to be unsuitable for the use, and a prosecution would follow.
Tyre Pressures
Regulation 27 section b states "the tyre is not so inflated as to make it fit for the use to which the motor vehicle or trailer is put", however this statement is fairly ambiguous. As there is no indication of at what point an under or over inflated tyre becomes unfit for the use it is being put to.
Tyre Cuts
A cut in excess of 25mm or 10% of the section width of the tyre , whichever is the greater, measured in any direction on the outside of the tyre and deep enough to reach the ply or cord would deem the tyre illegal.
Ply or Cord Exposure
If there is any cut in the tyre no matter how small which exposes cords, then the tyre is illegal.
Lumps, Tears and Bulges
Regulation 27 section (d) states - " the tyre has any lump, bulge or tear caused by separation or partial failure of its structure ".It is good practice wherever possible when assessing damage that the tyre is removed from the rim and systematically inspected both internally and externally.
Tread Depth
The legal minimum tread depth for cars and light trailers (including caravans) up to 3500 kgs gross vehicle weight and/or 8 seated passenger vehicles including driver is:
A minimum of 1.6mm in a continuous band throughout the central three-quarters of the tread width, throughout the whole of the circumference (see illustration below).

Any vehicle with a gross vehicle weight (GVW) or gross train weight (GTW) over 3500kgs or a motorcycle above 50cc must, either:
1.	The grooves of the tread pattern must have a depth of a least 1 mm throughout a continuous band measuring at least three-quarters of the breadth of the tread and round the entire outer circumference of the tyre, OR
2.	if the grooves of the original tread pattern of the tyre do not extend beyond three-quarters of the breadth of the tread (i.e. common with motorcycle tyres) any groove of the original pattern must have a minimum depth of at least 1 mm.

________________________________________
Other Points to Remember
Damage to road, person or vehicle
If the tyre causes either damage to the road, or to persons, or to any vehicle using the road. This would cover such instances as if a vehicle with damaged or very oversized tyres which either caught against a person or other vehicle resulting in either damage or injury. Studded tyres also are included in this clause and if used in inappropriate conditions (i.e. where there is no ice or snow) and they damage the road surface then they would be clearly illegal.
Temporary Use Tyres
All tyres marked "Temporary Use Only" are restricted to 50mph.
Re-grooved Tyres
Re-grooved tyres are illegal on any passenger car or utility vehicle below 3500 kgs GVW.

"A number of European tests praised many Continental tyres, awarding them the highest scores in several categories. The German motoring magazine, AutoBild, tested the Conti Winter Contact TS 800, TS 810 and TS 830 tyres against sixty competitors. The testers said the TS 830 was a very well balanced tyre and gave it top marks on wet roads, on ice and on snow. The TS810 was praised for its good traction, short braking distances on snow and its excellent handling properties on both wet and dry roads. The tyre was awarded an "exemplary" rating. The Winter Contact TS 800 also came out top in the tests run by Europe's biggest motoring club. The Stiftung Warentest showed it to be the top performer on wet roads, and awarded it the highest ratings on snow and ice. All of the tests also paid tribute to Conti tyre performance with regard to safety, especially under wet conditions". Our own experiences with the Vanco Winter on our Hymer confirm these views.
Back in 2006 Pro Mobil tested eight 'van / light truck' tyres on motorhomes. They tested the tyres using experienced drivers and sophisticated measuring equipment on two motorhomes at a Pirelli test track. The 215/75 R16C tyres were fitted to Ducato based Hymer A-class and Hightop motorhomes for testing. The results make very interesting reading!
A number of different characteristics were assessed and measured. Results from the tests on dry braking & handling, noise, rolling resistance, etc, showed up some differences between the test tyres but nothing very surprising. The dry braking test from 100 kph (62.5 mph) for instance showed about a 10% difference in performance between the best and worst tyres.
The all important tests in the wet were a different matter altogether. When braking from 80 kph (50 mph) the worst tyre took 53% more stopping distance than the best. To put that into perspective - if these two motorcaravans were side by side at 50 mph and both tried to stop simultaneously, the vehicle with the worst tyres would still be travelling at almost 30 mph when the first one had stopped! That's serious by anyone's standards, a 30 mph impact is very damaging, even lethal. Even the market leading Michelin XC Camping tyre took 25% more stopping distance than the best Conti under these test conditions. It was also the worst tyre for aquaplaning - by some margin, very worrying!
Have a look at these amazing figures for wet performance...
(All mph figures are calculated from kph and rounded & the 'extra distance' is our addition)...
Wet Braking 
from 80Kph (50mph)	Metres	Extra distance Speed when top tyre has stopped
Conti Vanco 31.9	0	0 Kph	0 mph
Conti Vanco Four Seasons	32.8	+3% 
Matador MPS 115 35.7	+12% 
Hankook RA 08 37.2	+17%	30 Kph	19 mph
Michelin XC Camping	39.8	+25%	35 Kph 22 mph
Michelin Agilis 101 41.5	+30% 
Goodyear Cargo G 91	42.7	+34% 
Bridgestone R 294 48.9	+53%	47 Kph	29 mph
Aquaplaning on 6mm water Kph	Mph
Hankook RA 08 88.9	(55.6)
Goodyear Cargo G 91	85.5	(53.4)
Bridgestone R 294	85.0	(53.1)
Matador MPS 115	85.0	(53.1)
Conti Vanco	84.9	(53.0)
Conti Vanco Four Seasons	84.4	(52.8)
Michelin Agilis 101	83.7	(52.3)
Michelin XC Camping 75.4 (47.1)
Wet breakaway, 88m circle Kph	Mph
Conti Vanco	58.9	(36.8)
Conti Vanco Four Seasons 58.3	(36.4)
Matador MPS 115	57.6	(36.0)
Hankook RA 08	57.4	(35.9)
Michelin XC Camping 57.4	(35.9)
Michelin Agilis 101	56.8	(35.5)
Goodyear Cargo G 91	56.8	(35.5)
Bridgestone R 294	54.6	(34.1)
Overall Ratings given by the ProMobil testers 
TEST \ TYRE	VANCO VANCO4	RA08 G91 XC-C 101 MPS115 R294

Wet Braking ++ ++ + - o o + - - 
Wet Breakaway ++ + ++ o + o + - 
Wet Handling ++ ++ + + + o o - 
Aquaplaning + + ++ + - + + +

Dry Braking ++ + ++ + ++ ++ o + 
Handling ++ + + + ++ o o o 
Ride o + o - + + + o

Noise + o + + + + o ++ 
Rolling Resistance ++ + - ++ + o - - ++ 
Plainly these new Contis are remarkable tyres, giving exceptional performance in the wet but still having sensible performance elsewhere - ride, noise, rolling resistance etc. Equally plainly some manufacturers may not be giving sufficient priority to tyre performance in the wet. The test did not measure wear rates, that would be an interesting addition - and a category where Michelin would doubtless come out on top.
Footnote: We're mystified by the chart ratings for the Vanco Four Seasons, the raw data seems to rate it higher. I can only assume they wanted to indicate the slight difference to the Vanco but in doing so seem to have under-rated it in comparison to its competitors! (See the wet breakaway figures e.g.). Our own Hymer now runs on Vancos and latterly Vanco Winter for better traction on difficult surfaces - I really like them. 
Thanks to ProMobil Extra for testing & publishing the data www.promobil.de. Also www.conti-online.co.uk.

Weight: The most important difference between your motorhome tyres and those for your car is their weight carrying capacity. A typical car tyre can accept a maximum load of 400-500 Kg while a 'light commercial' tyre can support over 800 Kg - a big difference! This is an important difference too - your camper or motorhome is likely to have a 'gross vehicle weight' of between 2600 and 3850 Kg. If we just divide these figures by the four tyres (taking no account of the likelihood of a bigger load on the rear), this means a load on each tyre of between 650 and 963 Kg - easily enough to burst those 'passenger' tyres at speed! For just this reason virtually all tyres have their maximum load at maximum pressure information moulded into the sidewall - often as a code called the Load Index.

To safeguard against overloading the tyres, the UK tyre industry strongly recommend that when choosing tyres, the maximum technically permitted mass (MTPLM) of the vehicle's axles should not exceed 90% of the tyre load capacity as indicated by the tyre's load index. Regrettably this isn't always achieved; for example many motorhomes are fitted with Michelin or Conti Tyres with 109 load indices when their 1900Kg rear axle should have 110 rated tyres under the 90% rule. We fitted slightly larger replacement tyres to our motorhome to achieve this safety margin - 225 section in place of the specified 215s.

Pressure: Car tyres are usually made from just two 'plies' whereas commercial tyres are made with six or eight or at least with technology that gives the strength of eight, i.e. 'eight ply rating'. This difference in construction also limits tyre pressures, car tyres are typically limited to a maximum somewhere around 40 psi or less whereas van sized commercial tyres usually inflate up to 65 psi. Incidentally 'commercial' tyres are called 'light truck' or 'LT' by US manufacturers. The special Michelin 'Camping' tyres inflate to 80 psi.

Is there anything else to consider? Well yes, there are other factors that might concern motorcaravanners, low annual mileages, old age and wet grass for example!

The maximum pressures quoted above are likely to be quoted as the correct ones for your vehicle but others are possible. To assess whether you can use lower pressures for improved ride comfort and get-away grip you must load up the motorhome normally and then weigh each axle on a public weighbridge. These weights can then be used to look up the minimum pressure for that load. Do be aware that some of this is tyre specific - in particular be very careful about the differences between 65psi and 80psi tyre types.

Age: The very low annual mileages that most motorcaravanners do means that tyres might well die of old age before they wear out. Rubber is particularly vulnerable to 'weathering', so tyres should be discarded once the sidewalls show signs of any cracking or deeper crazing even if there is plenty of tread. Five years is considered the maximum life for a tyre by many people, others say seven, just a few say ten years is the maximum. Some manufacturers offer 'camping' tyres with a some extra resistance to weathering and 'set'. As ever though you don't get 'ought for nowt' so these gains may be offset by worse performance elsewhere.

Grip: Some of us are very keen on rural campsites and not necessarily in sunny Provence or Spain. Anyone who has had to get off a field in typical UK weather on standard commercial tyres will have discovered that most tyres are definitely designed for tarmac! By the way, a little tip for front wheel drive on any tyres when first starting off from grass is to reverse out of your overnight tyre indentations immediately before pulling off normally, this makes use of the initial weight transfer to give maximum grip to the driving wheels to get out of those little hollows under the wheels.

Even on tarmac not all tyres are created equal, have a look at this tyre test report where under wet braking the worst tyre was still travelling at nearly 30 mph when the best tyre had stopped! Winter tyres sometimes also known as M+S have chunkier treads and may help on grass but don't abuse them when starting off because if you cause wheelspin at the outset and fill the tread with mud they're then little better than any other! They often have improved cold weather performance as well as chunkier treads.

Off-Road: Van tyres designed for off-road use are very rare indeed but you can try to choose those with a chunky tread pattern such as on winter tyres or possibly look at '4x4' tyres if you have a lighter campervan. These are designated as for on-road or off-road or mixed use. Some manufacturers define the bias between the two usually as a percentage, e.g. "On-Off 60-40". True off-road tyres have very low speed ratings and make a lot of noise on tarmac, the best ones for campers are in the 80/20 to 50/50 range but do check their load carrying capacity against your individual axle loads. Few are available in 15", rather more in 16" sizes.

Speed: All tyres have their maximum sustained speed marked on the tyre with a letter code. Some off road tyres are not intended for regular tarmac use and a few have very low maximum speed ratings. Speed ratings are also an indication of how much power and punishment will be reliably handled by the tyre without excessive heat build up. Rating 'Q' is probably as low as you'll want to go and should be able to handle the power from larger turbo diesels like Fiat's latest 2.8s, bearing in mind the fairly modest driving style of motorcaravanners. Rating 'R' would be better and isn't too hard to find.

Markings: All tyres are obviously marked with their section width, aspect ratio, type and rim diameter, so a 215/70R15C is a European tyre 215 mm wide, 70% as high in section as it is wide, of radial construction and fitting a rim 15" in diameter, it's also a Commercial grade tyre. This is a typical Boxer/new Ducato tyre. Tyres have a lot of other information on them as well - a numeric load index, the maximum allowable pressure, load carrying ability at that pressure, maximum speed rating and date of manufacture. Commercial tyres usually have a prominent 'C' or 'LT' in their description but some semi-commercial tyres might only have '6 ply rating' marked on them somewhere. Be careful about reading the figures moulded into tyres, some are in imperial and some in metric - don't confuse the two!

This pdf from tyresafe.org is a very useful guide to 'reading' a tyre - click to open in a new window.

Practicalities: Have a look at these tables for more specific information...

http://www.motorcaravanning.com/tyresafe_mh_tyres_08.pdf


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## BillCreer

Hi Dick,

I have only ever fitted new Michelin tyres to all the vehicles in my family for the last thirty years and my first choice would never be remoulds.
The reason I do fit new Michelin is that I like the high adhesion limits and long life they give. If I wanted to fit specialist snow tyres, however, I would let logic rule my head.
Remould tyres are used extensively in UK and Continental clubman Rallying.


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## n4ked

BillCreer said:


> Hi Dick,
> 
> I have only ever fitted new Michelin tyres to all the vehicles in my family for the last thirty years and my first choice would never be remoulds.
> The reason I do fit new Michelin is that I like the high adhesion limits and long life they give. If I wanted to fit specialist snow tyres, however, I would let logic rule my head.
> Remould tyres are used extensively in UK and Continental clubman Rallying.


I am shocked by the information that i found on the Michelin tyres on a Hymer motorhome and i have to say that we are no longer on Michelin on the hymer but Avon AV9 and although the ride is different the stopping power is much better.


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## BillCreer

n4ked said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Dick,
> 
> I have only ever fitted new Michelin tyres to all the vehicles in my family for the last thirty years and my first choice would never be remoulds.
> The reason I do fit new Michelin is that I like the high adhesion limits and long life they give. If I wanted to fit specialist snow tyres, however, I would let logic rule my head.
> Remould tyres are used extensively in UK and Continental clubman Rallying.
> 
> 
> 
> I am shocked by the information that i found on the Michelin tyres on a Hymer motorhome and i have to say that we are no longer on Michelin on the hymer but Avon AV9 and although the ride is different the stopping power is much better.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Are you aware that, for motorhomes, Michelin have only been selling the "Agilis" tyres for the last few years. They rate highly in all the tests ? 
Unless you know something I don't ?


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## icer

Bill


I think the paper that n4ked quoted was dated 2008


Ian


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## n4ked

I have never been ofered the Agilis by any dealer in the Uk. I have always run Michelin pilots on my Audi S4 and love them but had to take off the Michelin XC Camping from our Hymer as they just never felt quite right no matter what pressure i put in.


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## n4ked

icer said:


> Bill
> 
> I think the paper that n4ked quoted was dated 2008
> 
> Ian


Yes the first part was and it is aimed at people running on older tyres. The other part is the law.


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## BillCreer

Hi,

I replaced two front tyres 18 months ago with Agils Camping and then the backs 6 months ago and they were the only Michelins available for motorhomes apart from "Alpin". The "Alpin" were listed but not in stock as usual. Have a look on the Michelin website.

The new tyres are better than the old but I'll never know by how much as the old tyres were 11 or 12 years so the rubber was well hard.
Unless you are into throwing a motorhome around you only find out these things in an emergency.

I did go through a number of well used Welsh Rally stages in November to get in and out before and after each days activities. Despite the extremely slimy, rough tracks with extreme gradients in both directions I didn't have a single problem. I think I might have had some traction problems with old tyres.


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## n4ked

BillCreer said:


> Hi,
> 
> I replaced two front tyres 18 months ago with Agils Camping and then the backs 6 months ago and they were the only Michelins available for motorhomes apart from "Alpin". The "Alpin" were listed but not in stock as usual. Have a look on the Michelin website.
> 
> The new tyres are better than the old but I'll never know by how much as the old tyres were 11 or 12 years so the rubber was well hard.
> Unless you are into throwing a motorhome around you only find out these things in an emergency.
> 
> I did go through a number of well used Welsh Rally stages in November to get in and out before and after each days activities. Despite the extremely slimy, rough tracks with extreme gradients in both directions I didn't have a single problem. I think I might have had some traction problems with old tyres.


The reason that i made the origional posting is becuase i was in a well know motorhome dealer in Newark and i counted over twenty of their vehicles for sale running on the older Michelin tyres, no signs of cracking but they were old tyres. When i nearly purchased from them there was never any mention of a tyre swap.


----------



## n4ked

*Tyres*

Seems that i am back to my tyre dealer. I was assured that the Avon avanza av9 was suitable for my vehicle even though i said i was unsure of their figures. They said they were 100% that the tyres are correct until i have this evening being doing a little research of my own.

My Hymer hand book on page 123 under the section on my tyre pressure.

215/75R/16 that fully laden tyre pressures are to be front 5.5 bar(80 psi) and rear 4.5 (65 psi), unladen, front 5 bar(73 psi) and (65psi)4.5 rear.

Maximum pressure as stated on the side wall of the tyre is 5.3 Bar (77psi).

I know that the tyre is only running just over its maximum by 3 psi, due to the accuracy tyre gauges, maybe not a problem if the tyre gage is new and 100% but judging how many times people thrown them on the floor it could be more.

Was wondering how safe is the tyre once the pressures increase when the tyres are hot.

Talk about running on the edge, what would the insurance company say if there was an accident. Is it also enough of an excuse or a ticket on a weigh bridge.


----------



## BillCreer

*Re: Tyres*



n4ked said:


> Seems that i am back to my tyre dealer. I was assured that the Avon avanza av9 was suitable for my vehicle even though i said i was unsure of their figures. They said they were 100% that the tyres are correct until i have this evening being doing a little research of my own.
> 
> My Hymer hand book on page 123 under the section on my tyre pressure.
> 
> 215/75R/16 that fully laden tyre pressures are to be front 5.5 bar(80 psi) and rear 4.5 (65 psi), unladen, front 5 bar(73 psi) and (65psi)4.5 rear.
> 
> Maximum pressure as stated on the side wall of the tyre is 5.3 Bar (77psi).
> 
> I know that the tyre is only running just over its maximum by 3 psi, due to the accuracy tyre gauges, maybe not a problem if the tyre gage is new and 100% but judging how many times people thrown them on the floor it could be more.
> 
> Was wondering how safe is the tyre once the pressures increase when the tyres are hot.
> 
> Talk about running on the edge, what would the insurance company say if there was an accident. Is it also enough of an excuse or a ticket on a weigh bridge.


Hi,

I wouldn't worry about it. I wrote to and rang Michelin about the correct pressures for my van.

They informed me, from the axle weights, that they should be 50 front and 80 back. The guy explained it was industry policy to tell everyone to put 80 in the back and then adjust for comfort with the front pressures.

I notice you've got 6 wheels so God knows what you do. Try asking Michelin?

I have decided that if the that is the crude way the industry do then I'd do my own pressures using experience, a little knowledge and advice from others. 55psi front and 65psi back.

He did tell me that 80 psi in the back is an effort to make losing the back end almost impossible. (we are talking FWD)


----------



## n4ked

*Re: Tyres*



BillCreer said:


> n4ked said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems that i am back to my tyre dealer. I was assured that the Avon avanza av9 was suitable for my vehicle even though i said i was unsure of their figures. They said they were 100% that the tyres are correct until i have this evening being doing a little research of my own.
> 
> My Hymer hand book on page 123 under the section on my tyre pressure.
> 
> 215/75R/16 that fully laden tyre pressures are to be front 5.5 bar(80 psi) and rear 4.5 (65 psi), unladen, front 5 bar(73 psi) and (65psi)4.5 rear.
> 
> Maximum pressure as stated on the side wall of the tyre is 5.3 Bar (77psi).
> 
> I know that the tyre is only running just over its maximum by 3 psi, due to the accuracy tyre gauges, maybe not a problem if the tyre gage is new and 100% but judging how many times people thrown them on the floor it could be more.
> 
> Was wondering how safe is the tyre once the pressures increase when the tyres are hot.
> 
> Talk about running on the edge, what would the insurance company say if there was an accident. Is it also enough of an excuse or a ticket on a weigh bridge.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I wouldn't worry about it. I wrote to and rang Michelin about the correct pressures for my van.
> 
> They informed me, from the axle weights, that they should be 50 front and 80 back. The guy explained it was industry policy to tell everyone to put 80 in the back and then adjust for comfort with the front pressures.
> 
> I have decided that if the that is the crude way the industry do then I'd do my own pressures using experience, a little knowledge and advice from others. 55psi front and 65psi back.
> 
> He did tell me that 80 psi in the back is an effort to make losing the back end almost impossible. (we are talking FWD)
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Bill

I did just email Avon asking if they believe that their tyres are suitable for our motorhome, just dont like to ever give an insurance company any excuse just in case and dont want any problems should i ever bend it.


----------



## n4ked

*Re: Tyres*



BillCreer said:


> n4ked said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems that i am back to my tyre dealer. I was assured that the Avon avanza av9 was suitable for my vehicle even though i said i was unsure of their figures. They said they were 100% that the tyres are correct until i have this evening being doing a little research of my own.
> 
> My Hymer hand book on page 123 under the section on my tyre pressure.
> 
> 215/75R/16 that fully laden tyre pressures are to be front 5.5 bar(80 psi) and rear 4.5 (65 psi), unladen, front 5 bar(73 psi) and (65psi)4.5 rear.
> 
> Maximum pressure as stated on the side wall of the tyre is 5.3 Bar (77psi).
> 
> I know that the tyre is only running just over its maximum by 3 psi, due to the accuracy tyre gauges, maybe not a problem if the tyre gage is new and 100% but judging how many times people thrown them on the floor it could be more.
> 
> Was wondering how safe is the tyre once the pressures increase when the tyres are hot.
> 
> Talk about running on the edge, what would the insurance company say if there was an accident. Is it also enough of an excuse or a ticket on a weigh bridge.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I wouldn't worry about it. I wrote to and rang Michelin about the correct pressures for my van.
> 
> They informed me, from the axle weights, that they should be 50 front and 80 back. The guy explained it was industry policy to tell everyone to put 80 in the back and then adjust for comfort with the front pressures.
> 
> I notice you've got 6 wheels so God knows what you do. Try asking Michelin?
> 
> I have decided that if the that is the crude way the industry do then I'd do my own pressures using experience, a little knowledge and advice from others. 55psi front and 65psi back.
> 
> He did tell me that 80 psi in the back is an effort to make losing the back end almost impossible. (we are talking FWD)
Click to expand...

forgot to add the tyre pressures are recommended by the manufacturer of the motorhome and the manufacturers of the tyres recommend less, now to me that's an excuse if there were ever a problem.


----------



## Glandwr

I think the critical specs (apart from size obviously) are the loading and speed rating, get these right and they would be suitable. 

Dick


----------



## CliveMott

I had a blow out with a re-tread. The problem is that the tyre tread may be new but the carcase could easilly be 7 years old or more and you will never know. When we ran an old bus as a camper I used retreads on the back axle only as it had twin rear wheels each side. The blow out took out the complete steel wheel arch and laid it flat on the road behind. Many HGV,s also use retreads because they have many wheels and losing one does not send the vehicle into orbit. But most motorhomes have the same number of wheels as a car and I would not use retreads on them.

C.


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## n4ked

*tyres*



CliveMott said:


> I had a blow out with a re-tread. The problem is that the tyre tread may be new but the carcase could easilly be 7 years old or more and you will never know. When we ran an old bus as a camper I used retreads on the back axle only as it had twin rear wheels each side. The blow out took out the complete steel wheel arch and laid it flat on the road behind. Many HGV,s also use retreads because they have many wheels and losing one does not send the vehicle into orbit. But most motorhomes have the same number of wheels as a car and I would not use retreads on them.
> 
> C.


I never mess with tyres, they are your first contact with the road, forget the ABS, traction control or any other gadgets you have, believe me i have them all on my s4 but if those tyres are poor nothing else will save you except for maybe the airbag and your safety cell. We also have a Vw and i relegiously swap tyres at 3mm, the difference in the wet is a staggering 50% shorter on the 3mm than 1.6 mm. 3mm of tread depth could be the difference between stopping in time or hitting an obstacle at 50mph.


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## Glandwr

CliveMott said:


> I had a blow out with a re-tread. The problem is that the tyre tread may be new but the carcase could easilly be 7 years old or more and you will never know. When we ran an old bus as a camper I used retreads on the back axle only as it had twin rear wheels each side. The blow out took out the complete steel wheel arch and laid it flat on the road behind. Many HGV,s also use retreads because they have many wheels and losing one does not send the vehicle into orbit. But most motorhomes have the same number of wheels as a car and I would not use retreads on them.
> 
> C.


Ouch! nasty mate, in my many hundreds of thousands of miles I've never had one. Bet it wakes you up!

Age is no longer a problem it's no longer a back street industry. Legislation of 2004 did away with that risk.

Take your point though about there being only one in each corner on many MHs.

Dick


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## Stanner

I'm puzzled by this warning about not using part worn tyres :? 

Do I have to fit a new set every time I take the car/van/whatever out on the road? What happens if I do a long journey? Do I have to fit a new set before I set off home?


I'm really worried now.


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## BillCreer

Stanner said:


> I'm puzzled by this warning about not using part worn tyres :?
> 
> Do I have to fit a new set every time I take the car/van/whatever out on the road? What happens if I do a long journey? Do I have to fit a new set before I set off home?
> 
> I'm really worried now.


I think you know that you only need to worry if you have hit any sharp object that might have damaged the internal tyre casing.

If you trust all the people who drive your vehicle then there is nothing to worry about.

If you trust the people who previously owned and or sold you a second hand tyre then you have nothing to worry about.


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## Jented

Hi Stanner,Happy New year.
Sorry,i forgot to tell you about the m/homers New Year resolution. You must all talk to your tyres every day,get to know them,then ,although they are part worn they will do there utmost to protect you at all costs. Its the tyres that don't know you that let you down,tyres from,"Unknown" sources.
Happy Tyre talking,should you get caught,i will visit you at the establishment,do you like milk,or plain choccy biscuits? :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Ted.


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## BillCreer

I'll have one of whatever he's on.


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## Stanner

BillCreer said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm puzzled by this warning about not using part worn tyres :?
> 
> Do I have to fit a new set every time I take the car/van/whatever out on the road? What happens if I do a long journey? Do I have to fit a new set before I set off home?
> 
> I'm really worried now.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you know that you only need to worry if you have hit any sharp object that might have damaged the internal tyre casing.
> 
> If you trust all the people who drive your vehicle then there is nothing to worry about.
> 
> If you trust the people who previously owned and or sold you a second hand tyre then you have nothing to worry about.
Click to expand...

 
So they can't really be used in modern everyday road conditions then and so we can't really use them for their intended purpose?

Can't we buy anything to protect our tyres from all these hazards they face? :?


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## Glandwr

We take a risk whenever we get into a vehicle. There are some that allow the worry to make them paranoid. There are others that would happily sit on the roof unrestrained with their knickers on their head.

Meself I think the true path is somewhere between boys :wink: 

Dick


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## Stanner

Exactly the point I am (somewhat sarcastically) trying to make.

If we were to blindly follow the "advice" from the trade (whose only interest really is selling you a new set of tyres) we should immediately change the tyres every time we buy a second hand vehicle. In fact I'd go further than that and unless a new vehicle has been delivered to you on a transporter, or collected by you, direct from the factory you need to change the "part worn" tyres it has on it.

Modern tyres are amazingly resilient technology designed and made to withstand everything modern roads throw at them, yes they can fail, but in reality catastrophic failures are mercifully rare these day.


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## coppo

Stanner said:


> Exactly the point I am (somewhat sarcastically) trying to make.
> 
> If we were to blindly follow the "advice" from the trade (whose only interest really is selling you a new set of tyres) we should immediately change the tyres every time we buy a second hand vehicle. In fact I'd go further than that and unless a new vehicle has been delivered to you on a transporter, or collected by you, direct from the factory you need to change the "part worn" tyres it has on it.
> 
> Modern tyres are amazingly resilient technology designed and made to withstand everything modern roads throw at them, yes they can fail, but in reality catastrophic failures are mercifully rare these day.


So Stanner i can continue to fit part worn ones on the car then?
Lovely, i was getting a little worried.

Paul.


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## Jented

Hi.
If only we knew which tyres were going to blow,you cannot tell by looking,much like people,who at the drop of a hat rain blows down on you for no apparent reason.
All you can do is asses the risks,we are lucky,the vehicles change before the tyres wear out nowadays. After looking at Glandwrs information on Remoulds,if ever i had a tag axle m/home,(Don't hold your breath!),i would put four across the back. Having said that,Eden Tyres,who have depots at Derby,Nottingham and Alfreton can supply new tyres with all the proper speed/weight markings at a good price,so i would ring them first. I have no connection with this company,only as a very happy customer in the past.
Ted.


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## Stanner

coppo said:


> So Stanner i can continue to fit part worn ones on the car then?
> Lovely, i was getting a little worried.
> 
> Paul.


Who knows - but everybody else is running on "part worns" aren't they?


----------



## BillCreer

coppo said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly the point I am (somewhat sarcastically) trying to make.
> 
> If we were to blindly follow the "advice" from the trade (whose only interest really is selling you a new set of tyres) we should immediately change the tyres every time we buy a second hand vehicle. In fact I'd go further than that and unless a new vehicle has been delivered to you on a transporter, or collected by you, direct from the factory you need to change the "part worn" tyres it has on it.
> 
> Modern tyres are amazingly resilient technology designed and made to withstand everything modern roads throw at them, yes they can fail, but in reality catastrophic failures are mercifully rare these day.
> 
> 
> 
> So Stanner i can continue to fit part worn ones on the car then?
> Lovely, i was getting a little worried.
> 
> Paul.
Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

This is worth a read.


----------



## coppo

BillCreer said:


> coppo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly the point I am (somewhat sarcastically) trying to make.
> 
> If we were to blindly follow the "advice" from the trade (whose only interest really is selling you a new set of tyres) we should immediately change the tyres every time we buy a second hand vehicle. In fact I'd go further than that and unless a new vehicle has been delivered to you on a transporter, or collected by you, direct from the factory you need to change the "part worn" tyres it has on it.
> 
> Modern tyres are amazingly resilient technology designed and made to withstand everything modern roads throw at them, yes they can fail, but in reality catastrophic failures are mercifully rare these day.
> 
> 
> 
> So Stanner i can continue to fit part worn ones on the car then?
> Lovely, i was getting a little worried.
> 
> Paul.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> This is worth a read.
Click to expand...

Hmmm interesting thanks Bill

I was at the garage(it deals in mainly part worn but also sells new) only 2 weeks ago, a taxi was getting all 4 tyres replaced with part worn and that obviously carries members of the public. The driver said thats all he ever uses. As i said they are graded depending on wear and cost between £18 and £30.

I do understand the dilemma that the car where the tyre has come from may have been involved in an accident although to be balanced in the link you gave there was an indication that maybe some garages say part worn are not safe so that everyone has to buy new.

Difficult one really.


----------



## n4ked

*Tyres Update*

Guess that I have now had my suspicions confirmed. Spoke with the head of the technical department of Avon tyres UK today to a man called Ken.  
He told me that the Avon av9 is not suitable for my Hymer motor home because of the weight is high in the vehicle bearing weight on the side walls when negotiating bends and roundabouts. He told me the tyre is strictly for vans even though the tyres have similar weight allowances. The recommended running pressure for my size would be 56 psi although the maximum stated on the tyre is 77 psi. He did however tell me the AV9 it was suitable for older type vans such as vw camper and lighter home type conversions..

I have been told to get the tyre company who fitted the tyres to remove them and in my case Avon will fully reimburse the garage and there has been a lacking in product information & knowledge.

He also staited that CP tyres are specially designed for motor homes at great cost and i should only use these tyres.


----------



## n4ked

*Tyres Update*

Guess that I have now had my suspicions confirmed. Spoke with the head of the technical department of Avon tyres UK today to a man called Ken.  
He told me that the Avon av9 is not suitable for my Hymer motor home because of the weight is high in the vehicle bearing weight on the side walls when negotiating bends and roundabouts. He told me the tyre is strictly for vans even though the tyres have similar weight allowances. The recommended running pressure for my size would be 56 psi although the maximum stated on the tyre is 77 psi. He did however tell me the AV9 it was suitable for older type vans such as vw camper and lighter home type conversions..

I have been told to get the tyre company who fitted the tyres to remove them and in my case Avon will fully reimburse the garage and there has been a lacking in product information & knowledge.

He also staited that CP tyres are specially designed for motor homes at great cost and i should only use these tyres.


----------



## Glandwr

Maybe Hymer should put that in their manuals :wink: 

Dick


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## n4ked

Glandwr said:


> Maybe Hymer should put that in their manuals :wink:
> 
> Dick


Maybe you are correct dick

The van just did not seem right on the AV9 tyres, the old tyres were below the legal limit and it is what my local tyrer dealer recommended.

I have noticed others on the forum who run the AV9 tyre on the same model vehicle. While these are ok for smaller Hymers seems not suitable for larger ones.

I would say i am sort of a sporty driver but i dont expect to have to hang onto my arm rest when going around the roundabout. Bet it looks scary from behind. Need one of those stickers that says... Drive too close and i will dump my loo.

Jon


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## Glandwr

Looked at mine recently ‘cos as you know I'm in the market. It simply states size, weight loading, speed category and tyre pressure. Nothing about make or model of tyre.

Dick


----------



## n4ked

Glandwr said:


> Looked at mine recently 'cos as you know I'm in the market. It simply states size, weight loading, speed category and tyre pressure. Nothing about make or model of tyre.
> 
> Dick


I tried this code G101 on Etyres.co.uk
MICHELIN - AGILIS C , i need six but will call and ask

They seem to be the cheapest all round and will come to your home, saves fuel for me. they seem to be the cheapest around.


----------



## BillCreer

Hi,

You could use this


----------



## n4ked

Glandwr said:


> Looked at mine recently 'cos as you know I'm in the market. It simply states size, weight loading, speed category and tyre pressure. Nothing about make or model of tyre.
> 
> Dick


Interesting as my manual says max pressure 5.5 bar and Avon state that they don't make suitable tyres for larger high roof motorhomes only vans. Still awaiting Avons reply in writing to post on here. The recommend using the correct motorhome approved tyres with strengthened side walls


----------



## n4ked

n4ked said:


> Glandwr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looked at mine recently 'cos as you know I'm in the market. It simply states size, weight loading, speed category and tyre pressure. Nothing about make or model of tyre.
> 
> Dick
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting as my manual says max pressure 5.5 bar and Avon state that they don't make suitable tyres for larger high roof motorhomes only vans. Still awaiting Avons reply in writing to post on here. The recommend using the correct motorhome approved tyres with strengthened side walls
Click to expand...

Seems that it is going to be a learning curve for all

The subject of putting on different tyres to origional specification i.e van tyres on motorhomes is to be brought up at their next meeting.

www.btmauk.com


----------



## n4ked

n4ked said:


> Glandwr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe Hymer should put that in their manuals :wink:
> 
> Dick
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you are correct dick
> 
> The van just did not seem right on the AV9 tyres, the old tyres were below the legal limit and it is what my local tyrer dealer recommended.
> 
> I have noticed others on the forum who run the AV9 tyre on the same model vehicle. While these are ok for smaller Hymers seems not suitable for larger ones.
> 
> I would say i am sort of a sporty driver but i dont expect to have to hang onto my arm rest when going around the roundabout. Bet it looks scary from behind. Need one of those stickers that says... Drive too close and i will dump my loo.
> 
> A quick update... I received a full refund on my tyres, luckily i kept the old tyres so i am looking around for tyres again once the dreaded heating is sorted
> 
> Jon
Click to expand...


----------

