# Hiding your savings



## mistycat (Jan 28, 2014)

From every one :grin2:
No seriuosly, is it possible to hide your savings from the tax man and his mates?
at one time i was told off shore banking was the way, but now they have some international treaty or somthing,
now remember im not that bright, so been googling about buying gold or preisous (weres the spell checker when you need it?) metal and stash it,
getting a wad of cash under your bed makes it uncomftable :grin2:
any clever guys out there?
Misty


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Unfortunately it is a little late in the day to go that route nowadays. Apart from that you are only charged tax on the interest you earn that must be so low these days as to not worry. 
It all depends on the amount you have to hide,oops sorry invest,also your circumstances. 
Do you have large free storage anywhere.
There are virtually no bank vaults left now.
But basically will it cost you as much to hide it as to paying the tax on it.

cabby


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## mistycat (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks Cabby,
I was thinking that after woking and paying my dues all my life,
seeing these ******* people on benifits street earning more, i thought that i might have to have a go at benifits myself,
but having savings makes it a no go,
I know some people wont be impressed with my attitude, but its a right pi** off living on an estate where on a sunny day coming home after work they have been pi**ing it up all day and still getting benifits,
so sorry if it upsets people but think i need to join in,
savings for a rainy day is definatley a bad idea,
Misty


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I think

Those people earning more on benifits are few

Most are struggling

Or merely have different prioritys so seem to be better off

You too could live the same life
Squander your savings

Live on risk

And if you can't

Continue the way you are
With security

Once I lived with no security

I wasn't on benifits, we couldn't accrue any security
We lived day to day

Given the choice
I'd vote for security any day

And never judge what you see on the surface

For the reality

Just saying

Aldra


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## nickoff (Oct 11, 2005)

There's some nice investments to be had in Nigeria. All you have to do is let people know that you have more money than sense and you will soon be contacted by a nice gentleman from Lagos.

Nick.


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## ChrisandJohn (Feb 3, 2008)

There isn't a 'tax man', just like there isn't a 'benefits street'. The first is a term used to enable us to feel justified in avoiding or evading tax, the latter is a an entertainment for people who like to feel shocked, disgusted and morally superior at the same time.

Tax is what we pay to provide services for all of us: hospitals, schools, transport, policing, security etc., and yes, benefits for those who need them, and I'm sure proportionately very little of it is fraudulently claimed. 


Chris


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

ChrisandJohn said:


> I'm sure proportionately very little of it is fraudulently claimed.
> Chris


Benefit fraud is estimated to be about 1% of tax fraud or rather about 1% of what they can guess at.

Guess how many people have been convicted for benefit fraud in 2013-14? 
Almost 10,000.

Now guess how many people were convicted for tax fraud in 2013-14?
716.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-benefits-fraud-tax-evasion/20139


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

All the so called 'safe havens' for tax avoidance have pretty much been closed or reported now.
The Channel Islands and Isle of Man have all signed the reporting agreements.
So if you get any income from any of these places it is reported to the tax authorities where your statements get sent to.
In my case La Belle France.

There are still some deposits where it's left up to your honesty to declare. But even these are closing the loops now.
If you know a resident of Turkey there are ways.

ray.


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## vicdicdoc (May 14, 2005)

If you've got €70,000 to spare you can buy a nice little properly in hilltop town of Todi here in Umbria Italy . . If I was a few years younger I'd be seriously considering it & letting it out whenever we wasn't in residence


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Stanner said:


> Benefit fraud is estimated to be about 1% of tax fraud or rather about 1% of what they can guess at.
> 
> Guess how many people have been convicted for benefit fraud in 2013-14?
> Almost 10,000.
> ...


Who estimates that benefit fraud is about 1% of tax fraud?

In any event it's comparing apples with pears - one is the size of the fraud whilst the other is the number of fraudsters. What is relevant is to compare the numbers of people convicted of each type of fraud with the estimated number of people carrying out each type of fraud,


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Tax Avoidance is legal

Tax Evasion is a criminal offence.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Peter, maybe not apples and pears, it might depend upon who is considering which breaches of which rules need investigating. 

Governments and Government Departments tend to take a pragmatic approach where small sums may not be seen as being particularly important, especially if collecting them is difficult or costs more than they may collect. 

Some of us might think that breaking the rules needs investigating regardless of how little or how much is involved because it's the rule that matters and not the amount involved. In that case we do want to see all benefit fraud detected and prosecuted. If we want that then surely we want to see tax evasion treated in exactly the same way?

HMRC recently decided they wouldn't investigate all the excuses they get when self assessments are late, it's easier and more cost effective just to believe any reasonable story and write of the £100 fine. 

Taking that approach to benefit fraud we might find that they believe a lot of it should be written off, whereas tax evasion by the better off is quite likely to involve larger sums and therefore, using the same criterion, would be worth investigating, Alan.


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

mistycat said:


> From every one :grin2:
> No seriuosly, is it possible to hide your savings from the tax man and his mates?
> at one time i was told off shore banking was the way, but now they have some international treaty or somthing,
> now remember im not that bright, so been googling about buying gold or preisous (weres the spell checker when you need it?) metal and stash it,
> ...


Well there are legal ways of avoiding paying tax on your savings - ISAs and payments to pension funds. There are annual limits on what you can put in, but no tax is paid on the interest / gains. Boring enough for you? And who's this Tax man? I have problems getting hold of anybody at HMRC, male or female! :frown2:


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Are you earning Misty? If not then you shouldnt be paying tax on savings. Also the rules have recently changed. If your earning less than £15K then your savings should be tax free now. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ter-pay-no-tax-savings-new-rules-kick-in.html


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

erneboy said:


> Peter, maybe not apples and pears, it might depend upon who is considering which breaches of which rules need investigating.
> 
> Governments and Government Departments tend to take a pragmatic approach where small sums may not be seen as being particularly important, especially if collecting them is difficult or costs more than they may collect.
> 
> ...


Alan, my point about apples and pears was that the 1% (if it is correct) relates I think to the amounts involved in tax / benefit frauds whereas the number of prosecutions is of people. As for tax evasion being by the "better off", that illustrates my point I think. The number of "better off" people committing tax evasion is lower than the not so better off but the amounts are much bigger. The so called "black economy" is mostly constituted by the "not so better off" but that is where the most instances (but not amounts) of tax evasion occur.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I guess we'll have to disagree about that Peter. In my experience a great many business owners who have access to cash think it's fair enough to misappropriate substantial annual sums of what they regard as their money.

You may remember the Northern Bank robbery in Belfast which resulted in the bank withdrawing all it's old notes and replacing them with new style ones? That was an interesting time. It caused quite a panic because lots of business people had wads of cash stashed away and needed to exchange it for the new notes but couldn't do it through their bank as it would attract attention. People were caught because they did things like sending their children for a pint of milk with a £50 note.

For those who are unaware of it banks in NI are permitted to print their own notes which are nothing like BoE notes, Alan.


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

You don't hide money..............you use it, whether you,


Buy a property (very low mortgage rates) to let out
Buy a non depreciating object... (art, car, antique)
BUT don't leave it doing nothing,


You could, of course, waste it, by lashing out on a super duper M/Home :smile2:


tony


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Personally I am more than happy to pay all my tax at the appropriate rate as I choose to live here and choose to use whatever services the welfare state provide. I also choose to obey the law as much as possible.


Indeed if I could be guaranteed that the money would be ring fenced Id happily pay an extra 1% for the NHS and indeed for education.


I work hard and have been able to invest legally. I maximise my tax efficiency by use of ISAs (although not as much as Id like to put in) but would never knowingly break the law. Interest rates are poor so use ISAs; property; investments in more volatile markets/market opportunities; or even Premium Bonds. All legal.


I am not a millionaire not indeed do I have flipping huge wedges of cash lying around. 


I say this not to be some kind of smart arse but feel that we should all do the right thing, morally, really.


All of this is imho and you are entitled to your own of course


Graham:smile2:


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## baldlygo (Sep 19, 2006)

Don't despair *mistycat* the millionares hideaways may be better protected in future if this bill goes through.

http://tinyurl.com/stopthespoilsports - (sorry it's in French)

Paul


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I think most of you missed the point that 'mistycat' (OP) was asking about hiding savings which might preclude him/her from claiming means-tested benefits. It was nothing about hiding income.

Sharpen up all you in the back row.:wink2::smile2:

Iam not an expert on means-tested benefits, as I have never been the remotest drain on the State, but there are certain assets which are excluded in means-testing, of which one is one's residence, so if there is enough savings it could be ploughed into a bigger house/flat before claiming.

Of course one's income would have to be low enough to claim. 

I would never want my income, nor realisable assets, to be within the criteria where I would qualify for benefits.:smile2:

Geoff


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

erneboy said:


> I guess we'll have to disagree about that Peter. In my experience a great many business owners who have access to cash think it's fair enough to misappropriate substantial annual sums of what they regard as their money.
> 
> You may remember the Northern Bank robbery in Belfast which resulted in the bank withdrawing all it's old notes and replacing them with new style ones? That was an interesting time. It caused quite a panic because lots of business people had wads of cash stashed away and needed to exchange it for the new notes but couldn't do it through their bank as it would attract attention. People were caught because they did things like sending their children for a pint of milk with a £50 note.
> 
> For those who are unaware of it banks in NI are permitted to print their own notes which are nothing like BoE notes, Alan.


Then there was adopting the Euro in 2002. All the other European currencies were replaced. This caused thousands of properties to be bought in Spain with 'funny Money' before the change.

Ray.


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## mistycat (Jan 28, 2014)

Hi guys,
Thanks for the replys, Geoff is on the right track, 
its not my wages i have no choice the company makes sure i pay tax,
its my savings, i dont have much, most of it is in isa's at the moment, which dosn't make as much as they use to,
the reason i was asking is, if and when i pack up work, i will be meens tested or what ever it is, and they will have my savings before giving me any benifits right?
i'm not rich we own our home, ex council house live on an estate where about 1 in 10 of us probably higher work, paying for the others,
i want to pack up work and we want to enjoy our selves traveling in mo home for a bit,
but we are 10 years this side of retiremnt age, 
so was just trying to work a plan out
Misty


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## anjasola (Jun 24, 2009)

I have no problem paying the minimum amount of tax I can through any avoidance methods available as Mr Plod says avoidance is legal.
Tax more waste more ?


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## Hawcara (Jun 1, 2009)

Isa's and pensions as stated are free of tax. If you other cash and want a better rate look at your current account, better rate on those than Isa's at the moment.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

One can only avoid paying tax by buying anything that will not be registered, such as antiques,but when you sell, hopefully at the right time, this includes gold and jewellery then you will be liable to tax on earned income if you make a profit. If you buy a property and rent it out then you will pay tax on it or you should, either here or abroad.The market will not guarantee a profit though.

cabby


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## Camdoon (Sep 21, 2012)

You should be whacking as much as you can into a second pension. You will get tax relief on the way in and at least 25% tax free on the way out. You can also be stuffing money away for a spouse up to £3.6k pa minimum. You would be better going onto one of the finance web sites and learning how this works.


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## mistycat (Jan 28, 2014)

i read that there is no cgt on gold coins,
or am i going down the wrong track?
Misty


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Misty
You may of course know there are benifit fraudsters on your estate

Many won't be defrauding but have different priorities to how they spend

So look like they have more

It wouldn't suit you prob

I think there is a certain amount of money you can have and claim benifits
Although I'm not sure

Isa interest is rubbish
Savings interest is rubbish

Investments are better but they are longer term

And I'm no good advising how you spend more time in your MH

But if that's your dream you need to go for it

It is ours but Cancer gets in the way

Money we have

Useless
Without the space to use it

And we are getting older

Aldra


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Precious metals like Gold and Silver are a minefield.
You have to make considerable profits just to break even.

Ray.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Can we all at least all agree that it is spelled 'benefits' rather than "benifits"?


Cheers :grin2:


Graham:smile2:


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

"Can we all at least all agree that it is spelled 'benefits' rather than "benefits"?






?


tony


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

GEMMY said:


> ?
> 
> tony


Auto spell correct did its job so I had to go in and misspell it as an edit:smile2:

Godammit you are quick though Tony:grin2:

Graham:smile2:


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Course we can

IM sure the spelling really makes a difference

Those who can't spell it are no doubt cheating the system living on takeaways and chips

Those who can spell, well things are looking up

Minimum wage is PROB fair for them

Those who can cheat the tax system
Well we are entering the realm of the intelligent
Cheaters
It's life

Isn't it ?
Aldra


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

GMJ said:


> Auto spell correct did its job so I had to go in and misspell it as an edit:smile2:
> 
> Godammit you are quick though Tony:grin2:
> 
> Graham:smile2:


Always preview your post Graham :wink2:

tony


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## ChrisandJohn (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm not sure what benefits you are planning to claim when you give up work but I suspect you'll find that it's not as easy as you think to fool the agencies and that the benefits are not as generous as you think either. And they'll get worse.

I'm no longer in touch with the details but you'll either have to say you're unemployed and looking for work (and prove that you're doing so) or you'll have to pretend to be sick or disabled. An alternative means of conning the agencies might be to find a dependant child or adult that you can be a full time carer for.

Another increasingly popular route to being a benefit claimant would be to find a low paid job that doesn't earn you enough to meet your basic needs. I'm not sure what sort of top-up is available but it's probably at a level that means you'll have to go and queue up at your local food bank as well.

I think being a claimant these days can be quite hard work and probably wouldn't leave you a lot of time to go off in your motorhome.


Chris


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Unless your name is Abu Hansa..............................???

Ray.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

nicholsong said:


> Iam not an expert on means-tested benefits, as I have never been the remotest drain on the State, but there are certain assets which are excluded in means-testing, of which one is one's residence, so if there is enough savings it could be ploughed into a bigger house/flat before claiming.
> Geoff


Are you sure about that?

I'm pretty sure my Mother's share of her (jointly owned) house was taken into account when she applied for carer's allowance etc.

I remember that because in the same week that she was forced to jump through hoops to get help with personal care etc. a friend of mine got tickets to the opera that were subsidised to the tune (pun intended) of £90 per seat. 
He wasn't means tested for them though.


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