# Autotrail Cheyenne floor - hopeless design!



## skiboycey

I thought I'd post this for other users who may have an Autotrail Cheyenne on the newer Ducato body. Mine's a 2008 model 696G on a 3 litre chassis. It's the current model as far as I know.

I've been living in this since I bought it in June and have been really annoyed by the sloppy build quality and poor engineering on it. You can then imagine how unimpressed I was when a couple of weeks ago I noticed that the floor was sagging in front of the fridge when you stood on it. I was on holiday at the time with my mother-in-law staying in the van so I couldn't do much about it except watch it sag further and further each day whilst she was making the tea and trying to work out how I could mention this without the subject of her weight coming up!

Anyway to cut a long story short I crawled underneath at the first opportunity and discovered that the estemed manufacturers, Autotrail, seem to have left out an entire support cross beam (or just done such a sloppy job of designing it that they didn't put one in) right at the critical point of the floor by the kitchen where everyone stands for long periods. The floor, being unsupported for almost a metre, couldn't withstand the loads and has begun to de-laminate and sag. If I'd left it much longer it'd be very, very difficult to repair but as it is I've caught it in time and it should be OK.

I've constructed an auxilliary support system from aluminium under the crucial section so now the support is every 30cm same as the rest of the flooring.

I'm flabbergasted about how they can make something so shoddy. This is not a one-off bit of bad luck as will often happen with small-scale production like a motorhome but a glaring piece of crummy design that 'eyeball engineering' can spot in 2 minutes.

Whilst we're on the subject of poor engineering why is the water tank right at the back when there's plenty of space at the front where the weight would be better distributed? Why is there insufficient weather proofing on the rear garage area so it will get wet and de-laminate in the future? Why is there a large cross beam right at the back where it will catch on obstructions without sufficient cross-bracing to withstand these inevitable scrapes? Why was the fridge not proerly sealed so the airflow worked as it should? Why is the heating system assembled so badly that I've had to completely re-route it to get it to work? Why were all the water pipes cut so sloppily that the joints all leaked till I went back and trimmed them to the correct length? The list goes on but I won't bore you. Suffice to say that I bought this in June and have spent probably upwards of 100 hours working on it to rectify all the small problems it seemed to come with and to make stuff work properly - even basic stuff like the water pumps and the drainage system. During this time I've removed about a bin liner of sawdust, offcuts, *** ends, plastic cups, cable insulation and bits of water pipe that the Autotrail construction team were too bone idle to take out themselves. How hard is it to get the apprentice to run round with a hoover before it leaves the factory?

Now I'm a good handyman/engineer so I can do it but I shudder to think how much misery this would cause to a retired office worker who didn't know one end of a screwdriver from the other. I carry a whole chest of tools just to maintain this vehicle and none of the others I've looked at seem much better to me regarding build quality and common-sense engineering. I've built my last two vans and would be ashamed to turn out something this shoddy, even if I was the only person ever to see it.

It seems to me that these things are designed to look good at the Earl's Court Show but once you get them home and try to use them you discover the designer's have never actually used one. Overpriced junk a lot of it seems to me. Maybe I should start making them and actually do a decent job of it!

A photo of my rectification of the design fault. All the aluminium bracing is my fabrication - there was nothing holding the floor up except crossed fingers before. Why couldn't Autotrail manage to work this pretty simple problem out for themselves?

Anyway rant over. It was a loud and long one as I spent 6 hours in the rain under the vehicle yesterday and now have sore neck and a cold to prove it.

Regards, Mark


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## LisaB

We too have a Cheyenne 696g 3.0litre on Ducato chassis, 08 plate which we have had since April 08.

I can only say, we haven't experienced anything like this at all, yes cupboard doors have worked loose and we have padded some doors to stop rattles etc as things "bed in" and also our kitchen tap has come loose.

The only problem we have had occured last weekend, whilst putiing the van onto chocks it stalled and all dash was dead, it has done this twice before and then restarts no problem, almost like immobiliser cuts in, but this time it wouldn't start........................Left it over night and slept at an angle as we weren't level! Rang the dealer next morning, answer was "fuse" - dont think so, as at this point it would fire the dash up temporarily for a few seconds. Rang a local Fiat assist to be told it was the "megafuse" and to call the RAC, RAC were called but my OH decided to take matters into his own hands, he uncovered the battery and lo and behold the earth terminal was unclipped and therefore had come off, both the terminal were bone dry too! 

I am not too sure whether this is down to Autotrail, the dealer who serviced or what, but needless to say boy were we glad we were on a site and not on the ferry!


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## skiboycey

Hi Lisa

Have a crawl under the van where the step is and see if there is a substantial cross-member made of pressed galvanised steel holding the floor up roughly in line with the step. I get the feeling they actually forgot to put one in on mine! It would be interesting if you looked on yours and there was a support there. You'll know exactly what I'm talking about if you look underneath as the whole rest of the floor is held up by these supports roughly every 30 to 45 cms for the whole length of the vehicle apart from this part in line with the step which has 90 cms unsupported.

If yours has the support then this is unforgivably sloppy if they've not put one on mine and forgotten it. If it doesn't then sooner or later, depending on how much you weigh, how long you spend in the van and how much time you spend making tea, you'll start to get that 'bouncy' feeling by the fridge...

Let me know if you do have a look.

Cheers, Mark 

PS - I was thinking 'Earth Strap' all the way your post and was pleased to see that you'd found that this was what it was near the end of it. Usually a dodgy Earth connection lights the dash up but as soon as you try to start the engine everything goes dead and you have to wait minutes or hours for it to work again. At least you know for next time...


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## CliveMott

Hope you have a non metalic barrier between your aluminium supports and the steel chassis to stop electrolytic corrosion? (Thats a bit of plastic). It looks well made though.

We had an Autotrail for 11 years and had none of these problems. Scout Lowline on a Merc. But I did move the water tank forward and put the spare wheel at the back where you can get at it.

Given any thought to contactiing Autotrail or the dealer about this problem?
Would seem like a plan to me!

C.


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## tude

hi there well folks ive got 4 mates all got autotrailes all got floor problems door handle problems .how come autotrail never get stick on here like swift do ? and yet another thread now on autotrail floor u/s thats that off me back and yes ive got a swift which im very happy with now the hab door has been upgraded mine you it did take 7mths of phone calls and emails.thanks im only saying this because of the way swift get stick on here thanks tude


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## skiboycey

Hi Clive

I wrapped carpet tape around the ends of the bits of ally but as they're resting on paint and not the bare metal I shouldn't think they'd react anyway. Well spotted, though.

I don't know about you but I think this is quite poor on such an expensive motorhome and I feel particularly annoyed on behalf of all the people who are not lucky enough to have my practical skills which allows this to be more of an irritation rather than a disaster for me. Imagine if this had happened half-way through a lengthy holiday for people with no technical skills who found themselves with a potentially very big problem half a continent away from the manufacturer who would doubtless tell them to 'bring it in for appraisal' meaning driving it thousands of miles or risking getting it fixed locally on penalty of voiding the warranty.

Any idiot (and I mean ANY idiot) can see that a metre of unsupported floor right in the middle of a vehicle where the occupants stand making food is going to flex and give trouble without decent support. How do these things ever get NCC approval or whatever sloppy system they use to try and convice you it's been well built?

'Rubbash!' as Vicky Pollard would doubtless call it... I almost wished I'd done a comedy 'trapdoor' fall through the floor and hurt myself so I could sue Autotrail just to punish them for their slackness.

Cheers, Mark


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## geraldandannie

tude said:


> how come autotrail never get stick on here like swift do ?


They do - have a wander through >> this lot <<

Gerald


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## CliveMott

Mark,
I am afraid that UK motorhomes are perfect for the likes of you and I and Bob the builder who can turn our hand to most things. But they remain a long way from our expectations compared to that we expect when we purchase a new car, especially a Japanese one!. They are getting better but still have a fair way to go. Even the Germans don,t always get it right. Just look at the ongoing reliability problems with the Schaudt Elektroblock charger module. Amazingly the Italians seem to have got the CBE kit about right for a modern van. I prefer switches and fuses myself "Simplez"

(Sorry mates but the Landrover eventually got replaced by a Toyota, no guesses why)


C.


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## skiboycey

> Given any thought to contactiing Autotrail or the dealer about this problem?
> Would seem like a plan to me!


This is the problem, isn't it. I'm currently in France so if I'd left the floor to its own devices and my return around November it would probably have completely de-laminated by then with the probable refusal of Autotrail to cover the problem as I'd made it worse by continuing to use it long after knowing about it.

In the end it's easier to spend a day sorting it out as I can't imagine even if you took it to Autotrail that they would do it as well as I have. They'd more likely try to glue the laminates back together and they'd then only fail in another year. Much less hassle to just do the job yourself and have done with it but just so annoying as it's such an obvious thing for the most basic and simple engineer to spot that I can't believe it ever got built this way.

As you say these things are fine for Bob the Builder and the likes of you and me who can do running repairs which would all be fine if the the price being demanded reflected this. The trouble is they're asking a premium price for a well finished a durable product and then only supplying a 'kit car' standard of finish with some quite serious faults built in. If they offered the product at 70% of the price on the understanding that it was built quickly and with little care and would need to be 'fettled' to keep it going in the future I'd be quite happy to accept that contract...

A kit car for Porsche money is what we all seem to be getting. I'm only glad I got it second hand so I've paid 'kit car' money for it or I'd really be fuming...

Cheers, Mark


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## geraldandannie

skiboycey said:


> A kit car for Porsche money is what we all seem to be getting.


Very good statement.

Gerald


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## drcotts

I agree with skiboycey
they seems to have used the thinnest gauge ali they can

Phill


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## skiboycey

> Drcotts
> 
> they seems to have used the thinnest gauge ali they can


The ally you can see is MY repair to hold up the floor and was the only thing I could source in the hardware store in France. Before I put it there there was nothing at all holding up the floor which was why it began to fail. The photo is of what I've added myself to rectify the problem. I think there should be a big, chunky cross-member holding the floor up here but either they forgot to put it in when building it or they all smoke far too many drugs in the design office and can't do their jobs properly as a result.

Either way it's clearly not good enough for the money they ask you to part with to own one...

Cheers, Mark


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## Broom

Hi All

I hope you have all read 'New Motorhome 15 months on defect free, in Motorhome chit chat.

Best Regards
Broom


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## DTPCHEMICALS

And to add isult the profit margis as sugested earlier are in the region of 20% +
I paid £38k for our cheyenne 3 years ago.
Brother in law has just purchased Chateau Citation rv 29 ft Three years old with only 4k miles for £45 k. There is a world of difference in what you get in a Rv. But only around 11 mpg until it goes on lpg

Dave p


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## tviall

I've had my Autotrail for 12 months now. I have had one issue (which is my mind was about as serious as you can get) which was sorted out by Autotrail without any fuss or delay or expense.

I would suggest that whilst it is interesting to hear about peoples experiences with their vans contact should be made with the dealer first who in turn will contact the manufacturer to resolve the problem rather than let off steam on this site.

In my experience less than 24 hours passed between contacting my dealer and hearing from Autotrail by phone with plan of action. I fully understand the immediate frustration and the need to vent your dismay but doing it here gets you nowhere. 

Oh, I have no interest in Autotrail. Just a satisfied customer (even when things do go wrong as they will sometines do).

Tony


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## skiboycey

Hi Tvial

You're right, things do go wrong sometimes and that's a fact of life with anything mechanical. What annoyed me about this is that it's sloppy, slapdash engineering to leave out an entire floor joist either by design or poor quality control. If you did this when building a house you'd be up before the building inspectors and perhaps even prosecuted for it. As it's a motorhome people seem to accept it as 'one of those things'. To me it's not a big deal - an afternoon's work underneath it and 60 euros of aluminium and rivets - but to many it would be.

As I mentioned I've rectified a lot of niggly problems and it dismays me that the vehicle was carrying about a bin liner of trash - sawdust, offcuts, *** ends, crisp packets, bits of tube, plastic pieces - from when it was built. If the 'tradesmen' putting it together can't even be ****** to run a hoover round after finishing it doesn't instal a lot of confidence in me as to their general care and attention to the whole job. Then the floor begins to collapse due to lack of support and... well you can see how it becomes more than a little annoying especially at the high prices asked for by firms like Autotrail and the rest of the motorhome industry.

I also don't think that constantly taking the things back to the dealers to be fixed or altered is any kind of defence either. It takes the owner time and money to do this each time plus the lost use of the vehicle for which they are seldom, if ever, compensated for.

I run my own business and I'd just love to have a customer base who would accept these prices for this level of finish. I'd be rolling in it!

Perhaps I expect too much. Who knows?

Cheers, Mark

PS - I'd have a quick look under yours to see if all's well. Get someone to walk around inside and you'll see the floor flex if there's a problem. If there's any significant flex it WILL get worse with time as the laminates work their way loose but as I say, it's any easy fix if it does happen as long as you don't let it go for too long.

PPS - Once the niggles are all fixed I'm very happy with the motorhome to live in day to day. I just don't think it's worth the money they're asking for it. If the new price was 35k I'd think that would be about right for what is delivered. Once the Eastern Europeans decide to start making them in earnest we'll have twice the quality for two thirds of the price. I can't wait!


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## cater_racer

Looking at your photo's Mark, I can't but agree it's far short of the support you would expect and your mod's seem to have addresses the issue in a practical way. But am I right that the chassis seems to be painted? Is that over the galvanizing? Or are you looking at another load of work when you get home?


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## presto

Some job no fuss you just got on with it I wound not have Known what to do.I was in the retail business for forty years if we had left *** ends in our products we would have been closed , WE were butchers. really admire your work and attitude. Tom


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## skiboycey

> But am I right that the chassis seems to be painted? Is that over the galvanizing? Or are you looking at another load of work when you get home?


The chassis is painted as it's the Fiat 'Camper' chassis which comes painted from the factory and not the Al-Ko chassis which I believe is galvanised. The aluminium cross pieces are just resting on the chassis as I didn't want to drill through it and compromise the corrosion layers. They have some fabric tape wrapped around the end of them to avoid scratching their way through the paint and setting up an electo-chemical reaction due to vibration when driving. The upper pieces are srewed to the floor and the down-pieces are then rivetted between the two to take the weight but it's quite tricky to get the distance exactly right so they neither allow the floor to sag or push it up.

About 5 hours work plus an hour for tea drinking and moaning to anyone within earshot about my back/neck/knee/crap in my eyes/dog treading on me/lost tools etc. etc.!

Cheers, Mark


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## LisaB

Hi Skiboycey, Steve has been under our van and we have got what you haven't! :wink:


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## Annsman

We've had our 2008 Cheyenne 660 from new and we have had some problems, but nothing I haven't read about other vans. I can honestly say we are impressed with the actual build quality of the van and the service we have had from our Dealer, Spinney Motors and Autotrail in rectifying the faults we've had.

Yes, I agree in your case it is shoddy workmanship or design and should have been built differently, but perhaps you should bring this to the attention of Autotrail anyway, just so they can see a potential fault/build problem and rectify either the design or production fault. Your own repair, whilst is well done and of high quality might affect your future warranty if any other faults show up too.

Incidently, we had debris left in the lockers of our van too, ( a side decal, sawdust, several screws and part of a wiring loom that neither the dealer nor FIAT could recognise!), so perhaps the cleaners were off when our vans went through "quality control"!


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## skiboycey

Hi LisaB

So it would seem that the boys at Autotrail were so busy laughing, joking and telling stories about last night's football match that they forgot to put a whole floor support in!

Unbelievable!!!!

Do they have NO quality control process? What a bunch of clowns...

Any chance you could take a quick photo and post it so I can have a look (along with quite a few other Autotrail owners I should imagine)

Thanks for taking the time to crawl under there and have a look. I get the feeling they're not going to like me much when I finally get hold of them. 

Cheers, Mark


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## LisaB

8O Hi Mark


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## davidjlambert

*Cheyenne Floor*

We are new to motor homing and have recently bought a 2008 Cheyenne 696g. 
Having read of the saga re strengthening the floor, I looked underneath and we don't have any factory support.

I haven't checked the floor for sag but recognise that I probably need to copy Mark's design to prevent long term problems.

I wonder if others have carried out this work and if so i'd be interested in what size ally sections were used.

Also, it seems to me that the garage floor is similarly poorly supported. 
I wonder if that is why Autotrail rate the max load at 150kg. 
I'm hoping to put a lightweight motorbike in the garage along with our two dogs and the other camping items.

I'm assuming by strengthening the floor I can transfer more of the load onto the chassis extensions thus increasing the useable garage load albeit adding to the rear axle load.

I'd be grateful for any advice

Thanks

Dave


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## bulawayolass

Many thanks when able l will climb ibder CB and check. He ia a 696g 2007


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## DJP

The original post is well over 2 years old. Auto Trail did have a problem on some vans produced in early 2008 with floor delamination due to their suppliers supplying faulty board (flooring). The board had either the incorrect bonding glue applied or they had not been let long enough for the bond to cure.
ALL of this would have been covered by Auto Trails excellent after care service and repaired under warranty. Only a few vans in early 2008 were affected. The support design is fine on the vehicle as other people have stated within this post by saying they have no problems.


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## davidjlambert

Many thanks Bulawayolass, don't struggle until the White stuff has disappeared!

Thanks also DJP, our vehicle is dated as June '08 so hopefully free of any faulty timber.
However I still think there is a large expanse of unsupported floor which could benefit from extra support. Might be belt and braces but hopefully would give peace of mind.

Have you any thoughts on the garage situation?
I can only assume the 150kg limit is based on the strength of the floor which again has limited support.

There don't seem to be any issues with tow bar bike (scooter) racks which would load up the back axle which is why I think it would be feasible to increase the garage load by transferring weight directly to the extensions with less stress around the garage floor perimeter.

Perhaps any dealers browsing this forum might care to comment?

Regards

Dave


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## DJP

Hi Dave
Our old Cheyenne was a May build and did not suffer the due lamination problem. The fault was discovered in early April and anyone with a delaminates floor has had the problem rectified under warranty.
Iam unsure about the weight limit for the garage, why it is limited to 150kg, it may have something to do with axle weights. I don't think you could hang a 150 kg bike off a tow bar. I seem to remember somewhere seeing a limit of 100kg, but I could be wrong, don't forget you have to factor in the tow bar weight and the bike rack weight, so my 100kg could be about right or back to the 150 kg in the garage?
No doubt an expert will be along soon?


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## Mrplodd

I have an early 2007 (07 plate so one of the very first X250 based ones) 696G and have just got it back from the dealers following a repair to the delaminating floor in front of the fridge. Mine certainly doesnt have any cross member in the requisite area !!

It DOES however have a chassis that flexes (see seperate post about flexing towbar, get a coffee first, its 9 pages worth!!)


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## tecchie

*Floor*

It seems that somebody has the hump over Autotrail, it gets worse the more the thread progresses. First its a floor issue, then a design issue then a price issue. For me what makes this a little sad is that you have slated Autotrail all along, but never once have contacted them. Maybe if you spoke with them first they would have helped. You can't say they wouldn't, because you haven't given them chance! I too have one of their vehicles, I too have had issues, but when they were approached they listened and helped. Not the right way to go about things in my opinion - slating a company without talking to them or giving them the opportunity to reply.


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## pomme1

I too have a 696G, a 2009 model, and have had none of these problems. If you're concerned about missing supports, have a look under some continental 'vans.

I looked at an Itineo, Rapido's entry level brand, and there the whole floor aft of the rear axle was entirely unsupported. Effectively a huge cantilever, seemingly relying on the strength of the bonding glue!

Roger


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## Mrplodd

Tecchie

If the dig is aimed at me and my issue I would just like to explain that I did contact AT about my moving towbar issue and the response I got was "We dont fit tow bars, its up to the tow bar fitter to make sure there is enough bracing" 

My vehicle has gone back to the towbar company who have fitted half the Forth Railway bridge under my vehicle and the towbar STILL moves!! 

The only logical answer is its the underlying Fiat Chassis thats moving. The dealer I bought it from is being very reasonable and understanding and hopefully the matter will be sorted to everyones satisfaction shortly, but AT simply dont appear to want to know even though they supplied it in the first place. (in 2007)

The matter of the large span of unsupported floor seems to be fairly common!


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