# Adria insisting on Gel batteries



## Webby1

Finally decided to replace the 2 x 75Ah batteries in our Adria Coral which are probably over 5 years old now. The green light still shows batteries in a good condition but I guess this is not much of a guide.

Some really useful information about batteries on  This site and we will probably go with the Silver Varta batteries Allan recommends.

Anyway on measuring the battery compartment I see a sticker saying only to use gel batteries(repeated under Danger in the handbook)
Anyone know why this is ..........................the Electrobloc can be set to lead or gel and the existing ones have worked fine for 5 years.

Could it perhaps be for older batteries that needed venting............but modern ones do not.

I'm a little worried as it is very clear only to use gel battereis


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## peejay

Same issue on my Hymer a few years back, fitted 2 x normal batteries, all I had to do was vent the batteries to the exterior and change the eblock setting which was straightforward, they are still going strong 6 years later :wink:

More info in att'd thread...

http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/182-electrical/58260-leisure-battery-help-please.html#post550789

Pete


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## CurlyBoy

Could you not pose this question to AnadA caravan services?

curlyboy


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## Webby1

Thanks for that Pete and a really useful previous thread. In it you touched on charger capacity......................ours is the Schaudt 226 which is rated at 18A and apparently should not have a load more than 180Ah to include the 90Ah starter battery.

I wanted to get 110 Ah batteries as these ones have left us in the dark after only 2 days off EHU (maybe because they are knackered)

My understanding is that if you regularly run the batteries down and then demand a full charge it may fry the Electrobloc
2x110 +90=310Ah. But if you are usually on EHU, as we are, then you are always just topping the batteries up rather than demanding the full charge.

I got mixed responses to a previous post but I just wonder what your experience has been.

Thanks


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## eurajohn

I'm into a lengthy fact finding mission for Electrobloc and seemed to recall seeing something regarding this, so I checked
In the EBL220-2 manual at section 5.2 it states that you can change from lead-acid to lead-gel but not from lead-gel to lead-acid, your vehicle manufacturer will provide you information about this.
Strangely in the EBL220-A manual there is no such reference.


Make sure which model of Electrobloc you have and if you do not have a manual for it, the Schaudt site will provide a download PDF document for you, or I can email you one.


.


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## listerdiesel

The differences are in the battery charging voltages, GEL batteries will have different charger set-point voltages to wet lead-acid types, and if the batteries are on long-term float charge you could end up overcharging them.

Charging voltages must always be matched to the battery type.

Peter


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## peejay

Webby1 said:


> Thanks for that Pete and a really useful previous thread. In it you touched on charger capacity......................ours is the Schaudt 226 which is rated at 18A and apparently should not have a load more than 180Ah to include the 90Ah starter battery.
> 
> I wanted to get 110 Ah batteries as these ones have left us in the dark after only 2 days off EHU (maybe because they are knackered)
> 
> My understanding is that if you regularly run the batteries down and then demand a full charge it may fry the Electrobloc
> 2x110 +90=310Ah. But if you are usually on EHU, as we are, then you are always just topping the batteries up rather than demanding the full charge.
> 
> I got mixed responses to a previous post but I just wonder what your experience has been.
> 
> Thanks


Webby, we're rarely on hook up apart from on the drive at home, we're light power users so probably don't put too much strain on the batteries, never had any charging issues or problems with the elektrobloc.

Pete


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## rayc

The instruction from Adria to use Gell batteries has nothing to do with technicalities or compatibility with the EBL226. It is because the batteries are fitted in the living area and non vented. I do not know why they do this and not fit lead acid with a vent pipe, a local standard with their equivalent to the NCC perhaps? Mine has a NCC sticker by the door so perhaps it is a UK requirement? I parked next to a French guy with the same Adria, his was fitted with a normal lead acid battery and vent pipe through the floor.

I have never had any problems keeping my 2x100AH Gell batteries charged with the standard EBL226. I do not understand why the vehicle battery is taken into account in any case. My Adria handbook says "when the living area battery is fully charged the charger will automatically charge the vehicle battery" so 2x100 + 1x90 does not apply


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## WildThingsKev

I agree with Ray that it is to do with the lack of vent tubes but if you are confident that you can install these then there is no obvious reason why you shouldn't use vented batteries.
Although more expensive bear in mind that gel batteries have a lot more usable Ah than the vast majority of other leisure batteries and will last a lot longer too. I'd get you existing batteries checked as they will likely be ok for another 3 or 4 years.

Kev


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## EJB

Hymer have fitted Gel batteries for years and years (and possibly others?).....venting and the charging regime is the only difference as far as I am concerned.


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## listerdiesel

WildThingsKev said:


> Although more expensive bear in mind that gel batteries have a lot more usable Ah than the vast majority of other leisure batteries and will last a lot longer too.
> Kev


Kev:

On what data are you basing that statement?

Peter


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## Webby1

The like button is really not enough to say it.


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## charlieivan

I have replaced my gel batteries with agm. No need to change electroblock setting as agm are sealed and do not require venting.


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## WildThingsKev

listerdiesel said:


> Kev:
> 
> On what data are you basing that statement?
> 
> Peter


On the basis that gel batteries can be discharged to 80% DOD something like 500 times. Apart from Trojan etc (which cost similar to gel) most flooded/vented leisure batteries will only take a 50% DOD a few hundred times.

A pair of 75Ah gels have a usable Ah of 150Ah x 80% = 120Ah whereas 2 "normal" leisure batteries will have a usable Ah of 150Ah x 50% = 75Ah and only last half as many years use.

Kev


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## BillCreer

http://www.atlanticmotorhomeservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

If the "silver technology" batteries are GUARANTEED maintenance free for 5 years then that implies that they won't gas either so don't need venting.
All types of battery are capable of gassing if they go faulty to maybe all batteries should be vented.


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## aldra

Well our Adria apparently has gel batteries

They are absolutely fine

And I'm struggling to understand this thread

Are gel batteries no good??

Ours charge on the solar and seem excellent. 3yrs on
Aldra


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## Webby1

We have a Coral like yourselves Aldra and I am just trying to understand why they seem to insist on gel batteries. 

I am about to replace the existing batteries which are not gel but seem to have worked fine for the last 5 years.

Noting to worry about.


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## rayc

Webby1 said:


> We have a Coral like yourselves Aldra and I am just trying to understand why they seem to insist on gel batteries.


You could ask that question here https://www.facebook.com/pages/Adria-Caravans-Motorhomes/152822561439642

My Rapido had the batteries fitted in exactly the same location as in my Adria i.e. under the single dinnette seat. They were vented lead acid.


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## listerdiesel

WildThingsKev said:


> On the basis that gel batteries can be discharged to 80% DOD something like 500 times. Apart from Trojan etc (which cost similar to gel) most flooded/vented leisure batteries will only take a 50% DOD a few hundred times.
> 
> A pair of 75Ah gels have a usable Ah of 150Ah x 80% = 120Ah whereas 2 "normal" leisure batteries will have a usable Ah of 150Ah x 50% = 75Ah and only last half as many years use.
> 
> Kev


Your data are wrong.

Most if not all vented lead-acid batteries can take a deeper discharge without damage than any sealed battery, be it AGM or whatever.

In practice, almost any lead-acid battery of a given size/capacity will perform similarly to any other, given the same care/treatment.

Sealed or VRLA batteries have always been vulnerable to over-discharge, much more so than vented types, especially if left in a partially discharged condition.

I have 4 X 225AH AGM on the Mercedes, but only because I got them for free, otherwise I would probably have bought vented types.

Peter


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## The Geologist

Yes - Gel batteries do not release hydrogen gas which is very explosive, and when they go faulty they release a rather noxious gas called Hydrogen Sulphide - H2S, which IF you can smell it stinks like rotten eggs, but don't be fooled if you can't smell it because it paralyses the nerves that allow you to smell it and at about 300 parts per million you develop serious bronchial problems and death is imminent. Higher volumes than this can kill in minutes to immediate. It is quicker than Cyanide or Carbon Monoxide. The best thing is to have non-gassing batteries Gel or similar dry batteries, Halfords sell Leisure Batteries which are sealed, and if you really must have a wet battery then get a H2S Monitor - not cheap but then a coffin is even more expensive and your insurance - life etc., may be invalidated!


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## BillCreer

"Gel" batteries and "wet" both contain the same ingredients with the only difference being that the "gels" have a thickener in the acid. Because they are basically the same they will both produce hydrogen and sulphur dioxide when they go faulty and allow themselves to be overcharged.
The reason normal "gel" batteries produce less hydrogen is because they are less aggressively charged and there is capacity within the sealed case to hold that gas. You'll find an emergency vent in all sealed batteries that will release under pressure to avoid an explosion.


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## The Geologist

Batteries, especially if they sit anywhere near the habitation zone, should never ever be wet ones. They should be sealed for life and the reason as I said to an earlier post is simple - wet batteries when being charged give of a highly flammable explosive gas called Hydrogen. To bad to wish you had fitted sealed batteries as you rise in to the sky on a cloud of heated plasma followed by a boom! >

Another reason is that wet batteries when - and they will, develop a fault they give of sulphur (or sulfur) gases which include a really nasty one called Hydrogen Sulphide H2S. It stinks like rotten eggs! However, just because you cannot smell rotten eggs doesn't mean that it is not releasing H2S - you may find that the concentration is higher than the limit that your nose can detect and your nasal nerves are paralysed. As the concentration increases unconsciousness will occur and death will follow - you can still recover if you get the right medical treatment which includes hospital, oxygen and observation by medical staff. Unfortunately once you are unconscious death is almost certain - which means you get a personalised wooden box, your family get a piece of paper stating you died because of H2S poisoning:crying:. I am lead to believe it is as fast if not faster than cyanide at terminating your life. In low volumes not only does it stink, knock out your sense of smell smoke near it and it will ignite - just like hydrogen. Whether you blow up, burn or just asphyxiate I personally would rather spend the money on a sealed battery.

Someone else asked about putting different amperage leisure batteries together. Any battery is a source of energy and if there is too much difference between batteries you will end up with a floating amperage somewhere between the two. For example if you put a 50 Amp and a 110 Amp battery together you end up with 160 Amps total supply however this is shared between the two batteries and whilst the 110 Amp battery will hold a lower charge, the 50 Amp will be overcharged. This can cause problems such as overheating - remember the Boeing Dreamliners catching fire? The batteries overheated! If you want to put extra batteries together then their amperage should be more or less the same - you can put a 100 and a 110 Amp battery together as they will both float at 105 Amps. However you cannot put - as some asked 5 batteries of different amperages together whilst you will have a high amperage supply you will end with a massive imbalance and that could cause a fire - which will according to Murphy's law, happen when you are fast asleep and if you have had some local anaesthetic you will be in a deeper sleep which unfortunately could turn out to be your key to a personalised wooden box etc.>

As you increase the amperage you will need to increase the cable thickness connecting each battery - sometime back the BBC screened a programme called "_How to build a high speed train_," and it showed what happens very graphically when you use high current as against high voltage. The cable caught fire at high current, but HST's run on 25000 volts and the cable is about as thick as your index finger! To stop high current causing a fire you would need a cable as thick as you thigh! However as your system is 12 volts you can only arrange batteries in parallel - which means positive to positive which also means increased current. If you need more than three batteries - of roughly the same amperage then you should seriously consider getting a generator and solar panels. I have two 110 Amp batteries and they provide sufficient power to run everything off grid for 4 days without any recharge. Lastly if you add batteries outside the battery compartment they must be secured.

I hope this helps anyone thinking of changing or adding batteries, however I take no responsibility for the electrical advice if you choose to do your own thing. Before undertaking any work involving electrical circuits you must isolate or switch of the supply completely and don't do it if you only think you know what you are doing - ignorance kills and it may not be you entering the aforesaid wooden box, but you may have to stand in a court an justify what you did:crying:. If in doubt get a qualified person to do the work - it is cheaper and safer.


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## eurajohn

I would not and am not trying to doubt any of the factually correct points you raise, however there are millions of motorhomes in use that would attest to your article being unduly alarmist. Many of which were built that way by the manufacturer to the relevant safety standards.


As to getting a "qualified person" to do any work or modifications there are many examples of where such individuals have carried out and charged for sub standard and potentially dangerous works. A competent and careful amateur often does a far better job especially if it is their own vehicle


Not quite a gassing thread because a lot of what you say is factually correct, given circumstances which are unlikely in the real world I would still classify it as unduly alarmist.


Despite your name being The Geologist, did you train as an electrician?
.


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## listerdiesel

Let ust stick to facts please.

ANY lead-acid battery will produce Oxygen AND Hydrogen from the cells once they reach full charge and go into overcharge conditions.

Sealed batteries will tolerate a degree of overcharge as a function of their gas recombination function, but even they will pop the pressure vents if overcharging continues.

Like all things, correct charging voltages will extend battery life, for both sealed and wet types.

As I stated elsewhere, my money would have been on some 120ah wet batteries for the Mercedes had I not been offered 4 X 225ah AGM 6V blocks.

Peter


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## WildThingsKev

listerdiesel said:


> Your data are wrong.
> 
> Most if not all vented lead-acid batteries can take a deeper discharge without damage than any sealed battery, be it AGM or whatever.
> 
> In practice, almost any lead-acid battery of a given size/capacity will perform similarly to any other, given the same care/treatment.
> 
> Sealed or VRLA batteries have always been vulnerable to over-discharge, much more so than vented types, especially if left in a partially discharged condition.
> 
> I have 4 X 225AH AGM on the Mercedes, but only because I got them for free, otherwise I would probably have bought vented types.
> 
> Peter


I get my data from sources such as the attached, of which there are many more.

No need to read them all, just look at the .jpeg excerpt from the 2015 Exide Multifit motorhome battery leaflet where the "Dual" is their current standard leisure battery. You can clearly see it has less than one third the expected lifetime of their Gel leisure battery (and that at only 50% DOD) and less than one tenth the resistance to vibration of the Gel battery.

Not only that but you can see Exide show about double the available Wh (Watt hours, a different way of expressing usable Ah) for the Gel compared to the same sized Dual flooded battery.

Kev


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## listerdiesel

Kev:

Lots of information there, but the basic fact remains that there are very few differences (despite what some makers claim) between different types of lead acid battery in terms of available capacity, given the same quality of construction and original capacity being the same.

The worst thing that happened to the battery industry was the leisure market.

Peter


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## listerdiesel

The Geologist said:


> Yes - Gel batteries do not release hydrogen gas which is very explosive, and when they go faulty they release a rather noxious gas called Hydrogen Sulphide - H2S, which IF you can smell it stinks like rotten eggs, but don't be fooled if you can't smell it because it paralyses the nerves that allow you to smell it and at about 300 parts per million you develop serious bronchial problems and death is imminent. Higher volumes than this can kill in minutes to immediate. It is quicker than Cyanide or Carbon Monoxide. The best thing is to have non-gassing batteries Gel or similar dry batteries, Halfords sell Leisure Batteries which are sealed, and if you really must have a wet battery then get a H2S Monitor - not cheap but then a coffin is even more expensive and your insurance - life etc., may be invalidated!


ALL batteries release Hydrogen AND Oxygen when overcharged, please get your facts right before posting.

Hydrogen Sulphide is not directly related to batteries at all, please read up on the subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_sulfide

Peter


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## BillCreer

You had me thinking there Peter, as although I have smelled that rotten eggs from boiling batteries, I might be mistaken and it could be something else. The more I read, however, I went full circle to conclude that the boiling batteries can produce hydrogen sulphide.


The important thing to bear in mind is that batteries, transformers etc of any type can go faulty and produce poisonous gas in the hab. area but it is a rare event. Common sense and maintenance should eliminate most of the risks.


For me a couple of "wet" Varta "silver technology" batteries were the best solution I could find and they have been trouble free for the last two years.


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## listerdiesel

Bill:

You will get something similar from batteries that are over charged and low on electrolyte, but it isn't the same thing, see the chemistry in the Wiki article.

Peter


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## BillCreer

Yes I saw where you were coming from Peter but I did a bit more reading and, as I said, came full circle.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...W0Adtxi_R1aAoeXyg&sig2=55KObySL6aQ9MkzeQT-kuA


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