# Ducato gearbox oil change - lucky escape!



## david-david

After reading up on the Ducato and some of the topics on MHF, I came across the fifth gear/oil issue. As a precaution I got our mechanic to find out about this problem and see what he could find out. Spoke to him yesterday and he confirmed its a well known problem and (as you guys quite rightly said) you need to add more oil than normal. 

He came today while I was at work and changed the oil. He thinks I had a lucky escape as it was low and in pretty poor condition. No shavings or other wear indicators, but he reckoned it wouldn't have been long using fifth gear on motorways for me to run into problems. 

Cost to drain and replace oil: £45. 

Probably the best £45 I've spent!

So a big thanks to MHF for the heads up. Thanks guys! 

Dave.


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## cabby

I take it that this does not affect the new 6 speed gearboxes then.

cabby


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## Techno100

I don't think mine ever uses fifth Phil :lol: Unless its 20% gradient


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## TheNomad

Well done for getting it changed!

OK, I'm gonna be a pedant here, but: why on earth did you not change the gearbox oil yourself.
It's one of the easiest jobs you could do on your MH, and it would have saved you maybe 30 squids too.


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## fdhadi

What age is your motorhome? I understand that this problem is pre 2003 models only. The later facelift models have a different gearbox.


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## david-david

Nomad, I dont mess around under the bonnet. I know i should, but its easier and quicker to get our mechanic to come out and do it. Did read its not that easy as theres either no drain or no filler point so it has to go in down the speedo or you need one of those pumps to get it out...or something like that!

Fhadhi, 
its a 2001 Fiat Ducato 2.8idTD. Something about that fifth gear being some sort of an 'add on' and oil doesnt reach it.


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## Mike48

TheNomad said:


> Well done for getting it changed!
> 
> OK, I'm gonna be a pedant here, but: why on earth did you not change the gearbox oil yourself.
> It's one of the easiest jobs you could do on your MH, and it would have saved you maybe 30 squids too.


Probably because not everyone is fit enough or inclined to scrabble around underneath the vehicle.

Even if fit, you get under the vehicle, find you haven't got the right spanner, go and buy one, an hour later get under the vehicle, undo plug, oil drips all over you and stains the drive. You then find it is difficult to get the correct amount of oil into the box remembering that overfilling can cause clutch problems. You then spend the next half an hour scrubbing the split oil off the drive and then drive to the local recycling centre to dispose of the old oil. When you get home you then have to get the oil off your clothes, put on washing machine and get in the shower to wash the oil out of your hair.

All this hassle to save £30..........no thanks.


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## Mrplodd

"Oil in pretty poor condition"?

I wonder what the mechanic meant by that. Unlike an engine there is nothing to contaminate oil in a great box (other than metal particles) many gearboxes don't even have a drain plug as the oil is expected to last the life of the vehicle.


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## greygit

TheNomad said:


> Well done for getting it changed!
> 
> OK, I'm gonna be a pedant here, but: why on earth did you not change the gearbox oil yourself.
> It's one of the easiest jobs you could do on your MH, and it would have saved you maybe 30 squids too.


As an ex mechanic all I can say is I don't crawl around under our van either, if you can afford to pay someone else to skin their knuckles and get filthy why the hell not? :wink:


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## TheNomad

greygit said:


> TheNomad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well done for getting it changed!
> 
> OK, I'm gonna be a pedant here, but: why on earth did you not change the gearbox oil yourself.
> It's one of the easiest jobs you could do on your MH, and it would have saved you maybe 30 squids too.
> 
> 
> 
> As an ex mechanic all I can say is I don't crawl around under our van either, if you can afford to pay someone else to skin their knuckles and get filthy why the hell not? :wink:
Click to expand...

Each to their own.
For me it is because it's a great way of checking/inspecting other parts of the engine-bay equipment; it's a good way to learn about your vehicle; and if you do it yourself you know that it's actually been done right.


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## aulday

Hi 

I wondered if you can help me. I have a 2002 facelift Peugeot Boxer motorhome. 

I am trying to find out if it has the type of gearbox with 5th failure so I can add extra oil as a preventative. 

It's VIN number is vf3zaamaa17124468 

I have attached a photo I took of what looks like a bolt on 5th gear casing, but I was told the facelift 2002 model had this problem fixed so I am confused. 

Can anyone offer me some advice here? 

Thanks!


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## stevegos

I have a similar age engine to the OP.

How much do you have to over fill the oil by?

Is the engine oil the same as the gear box oil?

If no, is there a dip stick (other than me) for the gear box oil?

I check the engine oil regularly and it never drops in level and I know the 5th gear on my van has been changed about 6 years ago by the previous owner.

Sorry if really simple questions! Being a geek I can tell you theoretically how an engine works but in practice don't really know much about them. Is it the big thing at the front under my insect collection?


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## nicholsong

Greygit said

"As an ex mechanic all I can say is I don't crawl around under our van either, if you can afford to pay someone else to skin their knuckles and get filthy why the hell not? "

I think it depends where you are. In Greece away from Athens, where I found an excellent M-Benz workshop, I would not let Greek mechanics touch my boat - I thing I have never seen a torque wrench in the islands.

I do a lot myself, or if beyond my capability, I fly a friend in - he was RAF trained and also worked for motor-racing teams.

Fortunately, I have learned a lot from him about the right way to do it, plus some wrong ways - like taking a cold-chissel and club hammer to the face of a seized nut, at the same time saying 'Never do it like this!' :lol: 

Needs must when the devil drives  

Geoff


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## TheNomad

Stevegos - 


Gearbox oil is absolutely NOT the same as engine oil.
Stick any known brand of 10W40 or 15W40 mineral or semi-synthetic engine oil into your engine. DO NOT put that into your gearbox.

Buy special gearbox oil for your gearbox.
If you haven't got a gearbox dipstick ( on top of the rear right side of the gearbox when looking forwards when lying under the van), then the usual refilling point is by unscrewing and removing the reverse switch light sender ( when stood in front of the engine bay and looking down onto the gearbox it is on the top of the box, on the right hand side, near to where the gear slector rod comes down from the gear stick).
If your gearbox doesn't have a dipstick (and I think it was only the earlier 2.5D and 2.5 TD engined gearboxes ...up to 1994?), then you need to undo the gearbox drain plug, drain out all the existing oil, and then refill with the correct amount and type of gearbox oil.


Here's a post I've just put up today in a different thread here which may help you....................





2002 was the Ducato etc facelift changeover year. 
It was also the year in which the "old" 5 speed gearbox was replaced with the "new" 5 speed gearbox for this generation of vans. 

BUT they didn't do both changes at exactly the same time. 
They changed the gearbox before they introduced the facelift cab. 
So some of the very last pre- facelift vans came off the PSA production line that year with the "new" gearbox. 

The way to tell is simple, it depends on where reverse is on your gearstick.......... 

If reverse is selected by going right, and down, then you've got the old gearbox; if it is left and up by first, then you've got the new box. 






But in either case I think from memory that it's the higher amount of gearbox oil that you should be putting in: 

The original "old" gearbox was meant to have 1.25 litres of oil in, but some failed because when 5th gear was added, as a bolt-on addition in an extra bit of gearbox on the side of the earlier 4 gear box, it was lubricated by "splashover" of oil from the main box. If the oil level falls, not enough gets splashed over the divide to lube the 5th gear cog sufficiently. 
So the amount of recommended oil was increased from 1.25 litres to 1.9 litres. 

(For anyone who has one of the earlier models with an actual dipstick on top of the gearbox, a favourite mod is to add a higher fill line ( scribe it round with a hacksaw blade) half way between the old line and where the dipstick shaft joins the dipstick head. Filling to there will get you to the 1.9 litres. 

Using a semi Semi-Synthetic 75w90 (GL5) gearbox oil has been reported as giving a noticeably smoother shift, and reducing the "notchiness" when the gearbox is cold.


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## BillCreer

Just remembered I changed my gearbox oil a couple of weeks ago.
My van is a 2000 2.8 TD with the reverse to the right and down. It's done approx. 50K mls and about 20k of them by me.(no record of it ever having g/box oil change)

I couldn't see a fill place but there was a 2" long bolt which came out of the front of the casing which allowed me to insert a thin filler tube.(seemed to be at abut the correct fill level)

Drained the oil via the drain plug at the bottom of the casing and out popped exactly 3 ltrs of oil. (normal amount of swarf on the magnet)

I put 3 ltrs back in but as there was no overflow from the filling point I put another .5 ltrs in. I decided that I couldn't be using correct filling hole(couldn't see another) so I drained .6 ltrs out to leave 2.9 ltrs in the box.

I decided that the best compromise for content is 2.9 litres as I don't want to blow an oil seal by over filling but it has been running with 3 ltrs and no leaks. (also read advice given by others)

Best advice I can give anyone who undertakes this is always sus out where the oil goes in and make sure the "plug" comes out before you drain.(if the you can't gain access to fill, at least you are mobile while you consider plan B).

It is an easy DIY job with no pit or jacking required. The only awkward part is getting something to pump the oil in via a 8mm tube. I used a Laser mini pump.

I can provide a couple of pictures if anyone is interested.


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## 747

Mrplodd said:


> "Oil in pretty poor condition"?
> 
> I wonder what the mechanic meant by that. Unlike an engine there is nothing to contaminate oil in a great box (other than metal particles) many gearboxes don't even have a drain plug as the oil is expected to last the life of the vehicle.


It's possible that the oil had been contaminated with water getting in through the breather on the top of the gearbox.

A common problem on Ducatos.

To check which g/box you have, the ones prone to 5th gear failure had reverse gear selected by pulling the gear lever toward you (RHD) and backwards. The later boxes select reverse by pushing the lever away from you and forward.

Edit.
I have had to edit my post because after 5 years of ownership, I got the reverse gear movement wrong.  :lol: Now correct.


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## Pudsey_Bear

BillCreer said:


> Just remembered I changed my gearbox oil a couple of weeks ago.
> My van is a 2000 2.8 TD with the reverse to the right and down. It's done approx. 50K mls and about 20k of them by me.(no record of it ever having g/box oil change)
> 
> I couldn't see a fill place but there was a 2" long bolt which came out of the front of the casing which allowed me to insert a thin filler tube.(seemed to be at abut the correct fill level)
> 
> Drained the oil via the drain plug at the bottom of the casing and out popped exactly 3 ltrs of oil. (normal amount of swarf on the magnet)
> 
> I put 3 ltrs back in but as there was no overflow from the filling point I put another .5 ltrs in. I decided that I couldn't be using correct filling hole(couldn't see another) so I drained .6 ltrs out to leave 2.9 ltrs in the box.
> 
> I decided that the best compromise for content is 2.9 litres as I don't want to blow an oil seal by over filling but it has been running with 3 ltrs and no leaks. (also read advice given by others)
> 
> Best advice I can give anyone who undertakes this is always sus out where the oil goes in and make sure the "plug" comes out before you drain.(if the you can't gain access to fill, at least you are mobile while you consider plan B).
> 
> It is an easy DIY job with no pit or jacking required. The only awkward part is getting something to pump the oil in via a 8mm tube. I used a Laser mini pump.
> 
> I can provide a couple of pictures if anyone is interested.


Bill, why did you take 3ltrs out and effectively only put 2.9 back in when the considered opinion is to add even more oil.


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## BillCreer

My logic for 2.9 is that oil levels are usually dictated by the oil seal height for any shafts going through a casing. As the oil seals will now be getting worn I don't want any oil seeping into the clutch and I had read somewhere that 2.9 ltr was the correct amount.
Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

All the info I could see, for over filling, was based on gearboxes that held something like 1.9 ltrs and none ever said that you could get 3 ltrs in.


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## TheNomad

BillCreer said:


> My logic for 2.9 is that oil levels are usually dictated by the oil seal height for any shafts going through a casing. As the oil seals will now be getting worn I don't want any oil seeping into the clutch and I had read somewhere that 2.9 ltr was the correct amount.
> Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.
> 
> All the info I could see, for over filling, was based on gearboxes that held something like 1.9 ltrs and none ever said that you could get 3 ltrs in.


Don't worry Bill. 
Sounds as though a previous oil-changer put even more in than the higher-than-originally-suggested amount.
But as the gearbox is aspirated (ie it's got a breather hole on the top), overfilling ain't really a problem.....worst that's likely to happen in cases of rampant overfilling is oil being splashed up through breather, and then dribbling down around box and onto your driveway.

The extra oil is not to do with the shaft heights incidentally, they get soaked in oil all the time. 
It's to do with getting enough oil over the wall between the main part of the box and the extra additional bit that houses the 5th gear cog...which is lubed by "splashover" from the main part of the gearbox.

Reason is that when they changed from the 4 speed to 5 speed box, instead of re-designing the entire thing, they simply added a sort of bolt on vestibule onto the end of the existing box design, into which they put the 5th gear cog.


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## shingi

I've done this job on our X244 Ducato and used 2.7 litres of Castrol Universal 75W-90., although other quality oils will no doubt be OK.
Drain on the underside (8mm square socket) and refill very slowly through the breather on the top. Easy-peas !!  MICK


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## BillCreer

[quote="TheNomad
The extra oil is not to do with the shaft heights incidentally, they get soaked in oil all the time. 
It's to do with getting enough oil over the wall between the main part of the box and the extra additional bit that houses the 5th gear cog...which is lubed by "splashover" from the main part of the gearbox.[/quote]

Nope don't agree with that. Crankshaft, mainshaft and drive shaft oils seals are not designed or capable of retaining oil if they are below an oil bath level. Splashing yes but not total immersion.

If total oil seal immersion were possible then I'm sure 4 or 5 litres would easily fit in the gearbox.


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