# Dogs fighting



## TwinTravellers (Jul 5, 2007)

We have just got another dog (10 months old and rehomed) and for the four weeks we have had her she and our existing dog (who is a rescue dog of about 3 or 4) seemed to get along fine - e.g. playing together. 

However, this evening they had a terrible fight with both ending up bleeding. It was over a treat that I had in a bum bag - we had just returned from dog training class. 

They were very subdued afterwards but seem to be making up by approaching each other other slowly and licking each other, but now we are scared it will happen again. 

Both are girls but as I was brought up with four dogs, all females, I didn't think that would be a problem. 

Does anyone have any advice on how to ensure (or try to ensure) it doesn't happen again?


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## 107088 (Sep 18, 2007)

no expert but I have had dogs as long as I can remember and have 2 now.

What breed(s) of dog are they? the intolerance/aggression by either one may be caused by the dominant nature of either dog, by virtue of breed. i.e. GSD?BSD tend to be a dominant breed, whereas a Lab is by breed trait more submissive.

I think what you have is a " who's the dominant dog" situation, the older dog, is doing what dogs do to put the younger one in its place. Dogs dont think in rational terms, so they wont discuss it reasonably between themselves, and the older one, has been with you and is, so far as its concerned, higher up in the pecking order than the new one, food especially is a high motivator for dogs, and they will compete for it. The most important thing is for you to be the dominant, the pack leader, and make sure they both know it, they should accept that its our deicision who gets what first, not theirs, they dont lead. 

think like a dog, not a human,

at least thats what ceasar says.


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## greenasthegrass (Oct 27, 2007)

I have a dog and a bitch they had a full on scrap which drew blood over a bone - she likes to be the boss but ultimately where food is concerned he wins paws down.

They didn't speak to eat other for days but now best buddies again - think sometimes it is who is the boss defo. Don't think its anything to do with sex think its the leader of the pack syndrome had to step in before one really got hurt and its not nice as was worried about being bitten.

They may have defined who is the boss now so hopefully won't happen again.

Greenie


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Twin

Whatever you do, don't let it go on for too long before you take definitive action.

We have been there, and for several months we kept hoping we could "cure" them, but in the end after lots of expensive advice we were forced to re-home the older dog. Unfortunately the younger one was mentally scarred by then, and was timid for the rest of her life.

A dog and a bitch will rarely fight seriously, and two dogs might battle it out a couple of times to decide who's the boss and will live happily ever after.

Two bitches fighting is another matter entirely. We tried everything we were advised or could think of ourselves, including throwing the two of them into the pond - but they got out and continued without letting go their grip on each other.

For the final attempt we put muzzles on them and let them fight. After four hours of virtually continuous fighting they were utterly exhausted, and the younger one who was bigger and stronger was standing on the older one who was on her back and apparently submissive. (The older one always started the fights by the way - the younger one was never aggressive).

"_Great_" we thought, "_they have decided who's boss and things will settle down now_." No such luck!!! We took the muzzles off and the older dog got up and immediately attacked again.

After that we found a local lady who had suffered exactly the same experience with two bitches of the same breed as ours (Welshies) and she was forced to re-home one. The one she kept had died of old age and she wanted another - but not a puppy, so she was the ideal person to take on the older dog, who lived a wonderfully happy life with her from that day forward!

Hopefully yours will sort themselves out, but be prepared for the worst and don't make our mistake and let the fighting carry on too long before doing something fairly drastic.

Hope this helps, and sorry it's not more positive - but better to be forewarned of what might happen.

Best of luck,


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"think like a dog, not a human"

Wise words, for all matters doggy but especially training. Regrettably, it is something I have learned to be good at. Not that I had a choice ..... ;-)

Dave


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Two bitches may be more difficult but whatever you do as 'pack leader' don't favour the weaker dog or the older or the one you have grown most fond of. Favour the dominant one, feed her first let her get closer to you, this cements the pecking order and reduces the need for the dominant one to fight for her position. The less dominant one will then have an easier life.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"The less dominant one will then have an easier life."

Works for me!


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

sallytrafic said:


> Two bitches may be more difficult but whatever you do as 'pack leader' don't favour the weaker dog or the older or the one you have grown most fond of. Favour the dominant one, feed her first let her get closer to you, this cements the pecking order and reduces the need for the dominant one to fight for her position. The less dominant one will then have an easier life.


Hi Frank - good holiday I hope. You certainly know how to choose the weather! 

This raises an interesting point about our problem (above).

Neither we nor the vets could ever decide for certain which of our bitches was actually the more dominant.

The older one always started the fights, but also appeared on the surface to be dominant. The younger one would let her eat first, gave up toys and even let the old one have the treat if there was only one left - usually!

On other occasions (less commonly) the young one would quietly move in and take what she wanted, and the older one quite often submitted peacefully - no sign of aggression from either of them.

Every so often however all hell would break loose, and it was often difficult for us to know what started it, as it would often appear (to us) to be entirely spontaneous.

One behaviourist eventually suggested that the younger dog might be "passively dominant". She had a much more placid termperament, and rarely got excited about anything. The suggestion was that she let the older dog get away with things that didn't really bother her - but put her paw down when it was something she was keen on.

I could never quite accept this, as I don't believe dogs reason in this way. They live for the moment and react rather than pro-act, and anyway, we never saw anything to suggest that the young dog had started a fight. _(That's not to say she didn't of course, but most humans don't speak "dog" very fluently.)_

Interesting!! Nobody was able to solve our problem though, and it cost a few quid in consultation fees to two "experts" plus the vet for medication and repairs.

Not much help I'm afraid.


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## Bernies (Mar 22, 2007)

We have two bitches - English Springers - and we had a terrible time with them fighting. We ended up having them spayed on the advice of the vet.

That seemed to have settled it down although they still have a bit of a growl at each other. 
We tried everything - pulling them apart by the hind legs, water sprays, lemon juice - you name it we tried it but then and now we found the best was to close the door and leave them to it because if we were in the same room trying to stop it - it got worse.

Sally traffic is right - feed the dominant one first - if you know which is which. 
It can be really scary and expensive when you have to have the 'holes' sutured!

Your dog trainers should be able to advise though..but I think it is just a case of trial and error.

All the best with it.

Bernie & Carol


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## TwinTravellers (Jul 5, 2007)

Thanks for all the advice. To answer to question about breed, the older dog is a beagle crossed with some sort of terrier and the new, younger, one is a full beagle. 

I was aware that there would be a dominant one and that there might be conflict at meal times so I devised a training programme where they both sit, I call their name one by one starting with the older one and give a command and then they get a biscuit. I do this about ten times at a session. This has worked well and they wait for their turn and don't try to grab each other's biscuit; then when I feed them I have them sitting, say the older one's name and put her food down and then do the same for the younger one. So far so good so I hope it carried on working. 

The problem is when unexpected situations arise, e.g. the food in the bum bag left over from the training class.

It's great having a forum to ask for advice like this - even though it is nothing to do with motorhomes! I


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Dog fight*

Hi

If you have established that the fight was caused by a treat, that may be all there was to it.

The late Oscar often met Jenny, and they would sleep together, play together - everything - but were fed in different rooms. Equally, the dogs never played with a toy when both dogs were together.

Russell


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

TwinTravellers said:


> Thanks for all the advice. To answer to question about breed, the older dog is a beagle crossed with some sort of terrier and the new, younger, one is a full beagle.


The older one may be the problem. :?

Some experts say you can't type cast a dog, and that all breeds are basically similar.

I suspect that these people have never owned a terrier!! 8O :roll:

Our Gracie is very calm and placid, and gets on well with most other dogs - as long as they are *not *submissive. When she meets a submissive dog however, her personality changes instantly. She stands up very tall and tries immediately to dominate the other dog, and even stands on it if the other one is daft enough to let her.

This could easily lead to a fight if the other dog decided to react (almost has a couple of times), and is difficult to train out of Gracie as it is so much in the nature of the little beast.

It's a difficult problem because you are trying to modify a very natural and instinctive behaviour, which in nature would be sorted out very permanently either by banishment or worse!!

Hope this helps a bit.


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## 107088 (Sep 18, 2007)

One beagel and a part beagle.

Beagels are scent hunting dogs, they have been bred for rabbiting for generations, and, at least until the Kennel Club started their usual interference with a good breed, were built for stamina, deterination and a highly developed pack instinct. I had one for 10 years, and on their own, fantastic, bright inteliigent stubborn, willful little buggers. Put 2 together, you have a killing pack,

You have an established pack, and now theres another one turned up. THis newcomeer has no place as yet in the pack, and it should, if the leader was a dog, ( i.e.nonhuman) be placed at the bottom of the pecking order.


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## TwinTravellers (Jul 5, 2007)

"These people have never owned a terrier". You're right about that - I was brought up with dachshunds and poodes (two of each). 

When we choose Maisie (the older dog) the Dog's Trust described her as a beagle but looking at her and lots of pictures on the net it was my guess that she must be crossed with a terrier as she has a beard. However, I focused on reading up about beagles - ignoring the terrier bit.

The Dog's Trust also said she was one year old but looking at the new dog at 11 months and very puppy-like I can see that Maisie was older than they said. (I have since heard that rescue centres under-estimate a dog's age so people will be more interested in them).


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

TwinTravellers said:


> "These people have never owned a terrier". You're right about that - I was brought up with dachshunds and poodes (two of each).
> 
> When we choose Maisie (the older dog) the Dog's Trust described her as a beagle but looking at her and lots of pictures on the net it was my guess that she must be crossed with a terrier as she has a beard. However, I focused on reading up about beagles - ignoring the terrier bit.
> 
> The Dog's Trust also said she was one year old but looking at the new dog at 11 months and very puppy-like I can see that Maisie was older than they said. (I have since heard that rescue centres under-estimate a dog's age so people will be more interested in them).


Hi again

I meant the "experts" had probably never owned a terrier - not you.  

Sorry if you were miffed by the comment.   

Terriers can be, and often are the most headstrong and wilful little swine on the planet. Lovely dogs, full of character and never a dull moment, but they can be very difficult to train into (or out of) certain behaviours.

Why not post a picture of the dogs? I imagine a bearded Beagle is a pretty little dog, and it might generate more responses. 

Cheers


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## TwinTravellers (Jul 5, 2007)

Not miffed at all - just admitting my ignorance about all things to do with terriers! Got to go out but I'll try and post a photo when I get back - got to work out how first. Her photo is in the avator space but is a bit small to see her face.


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## 107088 (Sep 18, 2007)

I think its important to look at what the dog is designed to do. Both by nature and by people. Beagles are hunting dogs, they whizz around all day with their snouts to the ground, searching for rabbits etc, and then, they attack, and kill them, they do this because we accelerated the evolutionary process and bredd selectively for this, and they do it best in a pack.

Terriers are also hunter/killers, they have been. likewise, bred for yonks to posess the agressive nature thats required for a rat/small mammal hunter, and people have taken advantage of this for years. 

Labradors, I certain, started off life as a cross between Mastiff and sommat else, but, nevertheless, they still hunt prey; its just that we have now, in working labs/retreivers, selectivel bred the killer instinct to the fetch it over here fore me instinct.

So, when you have a Beagle and terrier cross, you get the best of both animal types, and also the worst. 

So the natural agression and the tenacity of the terrier, is coupled with the pack instincts of the Beagle, you have the potential for an agressive, pack oriented animal.

Please dont think I'm branding all terriers as raving foaming at the mouth agressive dogs at this point, but thats simply a fact of our ( human ) breeding program. 

Its not an unreasonable theory that you now have a pair of dogs which are sensitive to position in the pecking order, and also they'll go to fisticuffs without a moments hesitation is they feel it needed.

So, its now a 24/7 job, you've got to be there to break up the fights, forcibly is required, i.e. get in with your body and hands, and physically drag them apart. stick them both on their backs, and using a few fingers on each hand, grab them firmly, ( but not throttling them) by the throat and keep them there until calm and tranquility returns, if you're luck, then this wont take many times before they settle. 

My border collie, ( dog) and the Belgian shepherd ( bitch) set off about twice a week, this is settled bby me being equally agressive in my actions and verbal commands and they stop. Its an improvement, as they were at it like, wwell, cat and dog, about twice a day last year. I do know tho' that I'll be doing this until oneof them snuffs it. or I do.

Hope you can persevere, and best of luck.

It aint the dogs fault its ours, we were the ones that buggered about with nature, and now we expect all dogs to be good with every other animal, child and adult, and forget nature and pack instinct,


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Hi Twin Travellers

Lots of good advice on here. The best one was "Get good advice sooner rather than later". All behaviour problems need to be assessed individually. Each dog's character, breed traits, sex, history etc has to be taken into account if the reason behind the problem is to be discovered. Once the reason behind the behaviour has been discovered then you have a much better chance of curing it. In order to assess the dog a qualified behaviourist should come to the house and take a detailed history. They need to know every little nuance about each of the dogs. They also need to know all about the problem behaviour. What happened before? What happened during? What happened after? You have to be very careful not to take sides. It is very easy to blame the newcomer or the instigator or the trigger but usually it is a combination of things and you must keep an open mind and listen carefully to the behaviourist.

Two good organisations are COAPE (mine :wink and APBC. Both have fully qualified behaviourists all over the country. Do not make the mistake of trying to "train" your dogs out of what is essentially a "behaviour" problem. Behaviourists are the human equivalent of psychologists whereas trainers are our equivalent of teachers. It is horses for courses.

For now - do not leave them alone together.
- avoid anything that triggers them.
- do not think "let's see what happens if......."

The more dogs practice fighting the worse the problem gets and the harder it is to cure. If it is true bitch to bitch fighting as opposed to rescource guarding for instance then I am afraid, as you have heard above, that it almost always ends up in one of the dogs being re-homed. Sorry to sound negative but best to be prepared for the worst.

Dogs do not think like us. They don't hold grudges, they don't have morals, they act instinctively and don't have the capacity to reason. 
Get help - now.
Good Luck.

Pat


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## 107088 (Sep 18, 2007)

good post Pat, especially about the lack of morals,

'specially my BSD bitch.....oooh shes a trollop. :roll:


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Well Bandaid - there is this saying about owners and dogs growing more and more like each other


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## 107088 (Sep 18, 2007)

Yes this is true, also, we're very similar because in our own way, we've both been to the " vet" :roll:


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