# High- Specification MH for long-term?



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

We already have a good quality Niesmann+Bischoff Arto with which we are very satisfied.

But I am contemplating that soon(ish) we might to go long-terming and wanting to be reasonably self-sufficient in terms of power(? in-built generator), washing, air-con etc.

I am only interested in second-hand so would like to hear from owners of MHs which fit the bill.

I wonder whether there are recommendations from MHF Members of the relative merits/cost benefits of good Cathargos etc.

I think I am only interested in European and not RV, mainly because of fuel consumption and their toilet discharge arrangements. Also they tend to be larger for the same spec as European up-market MHs.

I accept that in this category one could not expect a wide choice at any time, which is why I am starting my enquiries early and LHD/RHD would not be at buyer's choice.

I know there are not many MHF Members with such machines, but even comments from people who have rejected one or other for whatever reasons might be helpful.

Thanks for any replies.

Geoff


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

Spent ages researching and eventually settled on an S class Hymer. Everything a Concorde or Carthago has got in their top of the range but in a smaller package. Stick to pre 2006

Dick


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## VanFlair (Nov 21, 2009)

Hi Geoff

You could stick with N&B and go to a Flair if you fancy, you would get a washing machine in the garage and I am sure a generator could be slung under the floor from the chassis as there is a lot of room under there. Obviously you know the build quality as you have the Arto now, if you get the Flair 8000 like ours with the single beds it has the most garage space of any layout as it goes right under the bedroom which is square as opposed to the transverse bed which has a smaller bedroom and larger lounge area. They have no oven in the Kitchen but can be fitted if it is important.

Otherwise you have Concorde Dethleffs and Carthago liners of course, I guess at some point it comes down to personal choice we like the style of the N&B better than the others listed.

Martin


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Hi Geoff,
Sad you have discounted American RVs. After owning a dozen and three large ones over here, I would have no hesitation in going RV for long time touring.
Agreed we did tow a car to make sight seeing and shopping easier but for absolute comfort of liveability they can't be beat.

I would dump my Hobby in a heartbeat and have a large RV if it wasn't for keeping it registered and MOT'ed in UK.

Ray.


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## Christine600 (Jan 20, 2011)

I recently upgraded to a Concorde Charisma from a smaller Credo. And some of the things I love about it:

* Macerator toilet with a large tank. Much simpler than emptying the thetford all the time.
* Rear wheel drive - much better in the winter with snow, rain and muddy camp sites.
* Lots of payload. Basically bring all I want. And my friends can too.
* A little longer van ment 3 wardrobes and not one.

And I bought a gently used one with all the kinks worked out. :wink: 


You mentioned generator, washing, air-con. It could be it would be easier and cheaper to add those to your current MH. How is your payload? Even an expensive Efoy would probably be cheaper than swapping vans.


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## ceejayt (Nov 25, 2005)

Or something like this...

RS Endeavour

UK built and a slide out. I have the Elysian.


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## ambegayo (Jan 7, 2007)

*Upgrading for fulltiming*

We have observed people in long-time trips using the laundry facilities at the French and Spanish Camps. wash and dry for a few euros without all the hassle of carting it round with you. Smalls :lol: can be done daily and hung on a line -the folding type-or in the mh loo/shower.


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## jonegood (Nov 5, 2007)

as another Arto owner

Why not get a bigger arto and add the bits you want? You get to keep the build quality and the lower purchase and running costs and the ability to go more places.

Power is less of a problem these days. A group of us from NB UKOC are in Morocco right now, Im x000 ft up the Rif mountains in a very basic campsite with free wifi and on hookup.

We had a roof mounted Ac in our previous arto and had to say we hardly used it, because you can usually find shade if you want it.

We are more inclined to use aires etc but carry an Acsi card so hop on a campsite for a housekeeping day periodically.

Its raining this morning so Im blogging, but what a lovely interesting country this is.

Jon


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## jonegood (Nov 5, 2007)

forgot to add....

if your happy with LHD there quite often late season deals to be had at polch open weekend in November.


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## VanFlair (Nov 21, 2009)

Hi Jon

RAINING glad we didn't join you now (not really) say hi to everybody from us.

Martin


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## owl129 (May 21, 2008)

*hymer B774*

Hi have a look at my garage.
due to ill health my vehicle is available. it certainly has every thing you could want for long terming, generator, AC, built-in gas tank, auto stabilisers, satellite system and much more. PM me if interested or for more pictures or details, hope you find what you require. When are you thinking of this adventure?
regards
Paul


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## salomon (Apr 20, 2011)

We have an RX Platinum, built to order. Generator, aircon etc etc.
Merc 519 auto, rear wheel drive, lots of payload. Freezer in garage. Extra large clean and dirty tanks. We can go for 7 days without needing anything. Limiting factor is water. Never felt the need for a washing machine though.

To get anything better of " liner type" would mean €250k at least new. And the ones we know do not have a built in generator. I am not a huge fan of the macerator toilets as you are somewhat limited in dumping. Extra cassettes work better imo...they are a lot more subtle to empty.
However, I think concorde have a dual system ie cassette and huge tank so you can take your choice.

It gets to a point when you think what is enough ? We are 7.5 metres long and I thing for 2 adults and a dog it suffices.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

jonegood said:


> as another Arto owner
> 
> Why not get a bigger arto and add the bits you want? You get to keep the build quality and the lower purchase and running costs and the ability to go more places.
> 
> ...


Jon

Glad you are enjoying your trip, but sorry about the rain.

The reason to look for something else is that with the goodies that I listed plus a scooter I would be pushing on payload for mostly wild-camping, so option of running empty tanks to fill on arrival is not available.

I think to get the payload I might like I might have to change from a Ducato/Alko chassis to say an Iveco Daily.

MHs built on that chassis also seem to come with better tank capacity etc.

Adding goodies at new price can be expensive compared to buying second-hand with them fitted.

Any further thoughts are welcome. Particularly since you are with the N+B Club does anyone know which Flair models and from which dates N+B changed to the Iveco chassis please?

Thanks

Geoff


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## Valian (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi
You have a massive and bewildering choice ahead of you! We spent 4 years on the same thing; 2 years researching all the different makes, models etc (and I do mean all!) and then another 2 yrs finding the right vehicle at the right price.

We found that what helped us was to create a list of must-haves, a list of would-likes and a list of definite no-gos. What's on these lists is going to be different for everybody according to preferences and lifestyle choices. For example, we plan to spend a fair proportion of our winter time in the UK, and particularly in the north east and Scotland (for birdwatching reasons!) so certain things were more important to us than they may be to other people, such as top-spec winterisation.
We started with chassis and payload, and found the job became easier as so many vehicles vanished from our list of possibilities: the chassis had to be a manufacturer with a top reputation for reliability and build quality, and had to be working well within its performance envelope...a lot of motorhome manufacturers push the limits to squeeze in as much as possible, and having experienced that on previous vehicles we didn't want to go there again, certainly not in a motorhome that's going to be our fulltime home for 10 yrs or so, hopefully. We also specified a minimum payload of at least 1500kgs so we're never worrying about what to take or not. We both have a lot of hobbies and stuff we're not prepared to leave behind, so to us it's important.
Length and width were the biggest headache for us; we discussed optimum sizes for literally months and are completely aware of the pros and cons of size, shape, manoeuverability etc....but in the end what swung us towards the larger vehicle was the fact that we plan to spend at least 3 weeks everywhere we stay so we can explore properly, using the Liner as a basecamp. So maybe we can go a little bigger than most people would be happy with...we'll do the mountain passes and the supermarket car parks in the Smart!
Once we'd settled on the MAN chassis, and a gvw of 10000kgs, giving a payload of 2500kgs, the choice became a lot narrower! It was going to be one of the better German makes...Concorde, Phoenix, Vario or RMB, unless we could find an RV which came near in winterisation and build quality, which we didn't. And in the end we got the Liner, which we've now had for nearly a year and is, fortunately, perfect for us and our chosen lifestyle.....we've just spent a more comfortable winter in the north east than I've ever spent in a house, and a lot more economical too. I wouldn't change anything about it.

Beware people telling you that theirs is the best. There's no such thing as the perfect motorhome; we're all different and what suits one doesn't suit another. By the time you've looked at as many as we did you'll know what I mean.......


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## VanFlair (Nov 21, 2009)

Hi Geoff

I think that the Flair came with the Iveco chassis and RWD running gear in 2005 (ours is 2006) for a while you could get the Flair on Iveco or FIAT FWD and very often if not always tag axle. The payload on the Iveco are to say the least very generous I seem to remember last time I weighed ours I had something like 800 kg spare.

Niesmann and Bischoff web site used to have all the archived brochures and price lists going way back but I have just looked and they are not there anymore (should have saved them as they were PDF).

If I am wrong with this information I am sure Jon will correct me as he is with the experts.

Martin


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Valian said:


> Hi
> You have a massive and bewildering choice ahead of you! We spent 4 years on the same thing; 2 years researching all the different makes, models etc (and I do mean all!) and then another 2 yrs finding the right vehicle at the right price.
> 
> We found that what helped us was to create a list of must-haves, a list of would-likes and a list of definite no-gos. What's on these lists is going to be different for everybody according to preferences and lifestyle choices. For example, we plan to spend a fair proportion of our winter time in the UK, and particularly in the north east and Scotland (for birdwatching reasons!) so certain things were more important to us than they may be to other people, such as top-spec winterisation.
> ...


Valian, thank you.

Your approach to choosing was exactly like mine when I was looking for what is my first MH.The timescale I took to identify a few models and then to find the right vehicle were similar.

Did I get the choice wrong? No. At the time the Arto fitted my spec.

What has changed is that then I was single and now I am with my lady, which has changed the spec. in several ways:-

For payload

She and her bike, clothes etc.

Scooter would have to be heavier to take two.

To survive 5-10 days on water-tank/grey tank- bigger tank.

Long-terming needs clothes for summer/winter (incl. ski kit) X2.

Also, fortunately, Basia really likes the wilding, so compromise of reducing weight by using campsites is not on our agenda.

Interestingly you mentioned one or two marques of which I had not heard - must do more research.

You said your MH is GVW of 10,000kg, so presumably you have a HGV licence (at least Class 2)

Since your approach to identifying the right MH is similar maybe you will permit me to run pass you, via PM, some ideas when I get to a difficult bit.

Slight aside, I found that when visiting a dealer, and handing them a copy of my spec, there were two types of reactions

a) from a knowledgeable salesman, 'this guy is a serious buyer and I can find him the right MH'

b) from the just-ex car salesman/estate agent, 'oh f**k I cannot palm him off with that Swift I promised my boss to shift this week'

Thanks again.

Geoff


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

VanFlair said:


> Hi Geoff
> 
> I think that the Flair came with the Iveco chassis and RWD running gear in 2005 (ours is 2006) for a while you could get the Flair on Iveco or FIAT FWD and very often if not always tag axle. The payload on the Iveco are to say the least very generous I seem to remember last time I weighed ours I had something like 800 kg spare.
> 
> ...


Martin

Thanks for that.

Yes you are right about the difficulty of getting previous specs on the N+B website but I think I found a way recently - but should have written it down.

Geoff


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## Valian (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Geoff
PM welcome anytime. 
We decided to go beyond 7500kg fairly early on when we looked at payloads available on vehicles up to 7500kg. You either get a good spec with no payload or vice versa given the size we were looking at. Where it gets confusing is when you start adding in all the optional extras.........

The Daily at a gvw 0f 6500 or so is stretching the envelope a bit I think, especially if there's a significant rear overhang, so I did the Class 2 HGV last summer which gave us the scope to find what we wanted. The MAN 10.240 with its 12 speed auto box is a dream to drive compared to the old Scania with 8 speed manual splitshift box, particularly round the quaint historic town of Berwick upon Tweed where I did the test!!

The less well known German marques are worth looking at: Vario very high class and very expensive, Phoenix similar in range and style to Concorde but with no UK dealer. Www.mobile.de has links to all of them.

Regards
Ian


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Valian said:


> Hi Geoff
> PM welcome anytime.
> We decided to go beyond 7500kg fairly early on when we looked at payloads available on vehicles up to 7500kg. You either get a good spec with no payload or vice versa given the size we were looking at. Where it gets confusing is when you start adding in all the optional extras.........
> 
> ...


Ian

Thanks, you are really bringing on my knowledge and research in this category by leaps and bounds.

Perhaps I should consider doing the HGV 2 soon, because I have just passed my D4 medical for over 70 C1, and I understand it is the same medical as for HGV. As I have been driving 7.5 t regularly (some, like furniture vans) with same body size as 12t, I do not anticipate too many problems, other than a you say gearboxes.

Thanks for offer of PM - I promise not to abuse.

Geoff


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