# Question For Dougie (ASPRN)



## gromett (May 9, 2005)

Or anyone else who knows motoring laws.

I have my car license and have also taken the C1. If I want to tow a caravan (over 750KG) I need to take my +E.

If I do the C1+E test would that automatically give me B+E rights or do I have to take the B+E and C1+E tests?

Thanks
Karl


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

My reading of the upgrading section here is that you would not need to do the additional B+E test.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/index.htm

Try the above.

Dave p


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## gromett (May 9, 2005)

Thanks Dave

I saw that as well but after recent posts thought it would be wise to speak to Dougie as he seems to pick up the gotcha's that the system throws up lol.

Karl


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

gromett said:


> Or anyone else who knows motoring laws.
> 
> I have my car license and have also taken the C1. If I want to tow a caravan (over 750KG) I need to take my +E.
> 
> ...


Irrespective of having a C1 you can tow a caravan / trailer with a MGW, [ i.e. MAM or MPTLM], over 750kg on a *group B* licence only. If the caravan or trailer has a MGW of less than 750kg you can tow it with a car with a MGW of up to 3500kg, giving a Maximum Train weight of 4250kg.

If the caravan or trailer has a MGW of over 750kg then the mximum Train weight is 3500kg.

The UNLADEN weight of the tow vehicle must exceed the MGW of the caravan /trailer.


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## gromett (May 9, 2005)

That wasn't too clear rayc sorry. But if you are saying it is possible for me to tow over 750KG that is most definately not the case. I have a post 97 license and I am not allowed to tow anything over 750KG period 

Karl


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

gromett said:


> That wasn't too clear rayc sorry. But if you are saying it is possible for me to tow over 750KG that is most definately not the case. I have a post 97 license and I am not allowed to tow anything over 750KG period
> 
> Karl


Karl, You are wrong!

With a Class B licence you can tow exactly what I said in my post. You can tow a trailer that has a MGW over 750kg as long as the UNLADEN weight of the car is heavier than the MGW of the trailer and the Train Weight is less than 3500kg.
If you cannot accept my word then how about the Governments?

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022547

Section "Cars or light vans, with or without trailers"
*Class B licence only*.
*quote: "Motor vehicles with a MAM of up to 3,500 kg, no more than eight passenger seats, with or without a trailer - weighing no more than 750 kg"* This means that if the trailer is less than 750kg then you can tow it with a vehicle loaded to it's maximum of 3,500kg thus giving a Train Weight of 4250kg.

B]Class B licence only[/B].
*quote: "As category B but with a trailer weighing more than 750 kg. The total weight of the vehicle and the trailer together can't weigh more than 3,500 kg. The weight of the trailer, when fully loaded, can't weigh more than the unladen weight of the vehicle"*
This means that if the trailer has a MGW of over 750kg then you are limited to a Train Weight of 3,500kg and that the unladen weight of the vehicle must weigh more than the MGW of the trailer.

[If you have B+E then you can tow with a vehicle up to MGW 3500kg and with trailers weighing more than the unladen weight of the vehicle.]

From the Caravan Club:
http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/17614/ASK YOUR CLUB May 07.pdf

See the question "What can I tow / drive"?

Ray


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## gromett (May 9, 2005)

I think we may have to agree to disagree on this until Dougie or another serving policeman corrects me. My license and notes seems to be quite clear that I am limited to 750KG trailer...

However even if you are correct it won't help me any as my Van will be close to it's 3500KG limited and that will prevent towing a caravan under the rules you cover.

Karl


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## pete4x4 (Dec 20, 2006)

Rayc is right, doesn't help you though as your vehicle is already at 3500kg but for instance if your vehicle weighed 2000kg then you could to a caravan up tow 1500kgs on a class 'B'


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Hi Karl,

I would suggest a PM next time - that way I can't miss it if you need to ring my bell. 



gromett said:


> If I do the C1+E test would that automatically give me B+E rights or do I have to take the B+E and C1+E tests?


Rather than try to answer a question you've not asked, I'll answer the one you have.

[hr:79a32ff13c]*Upgrading entitlement for trailers*

In general, an additional driving test is required for each category or subcategory of entitlement. But there are certain exceptions to this where drivers have already passed one test which involves trailer entitlement for a larger or equivalent sized vehicle.

This means that passing a test for subcategory *C1+E* or D1+E *upgrades category B entitlement to B+E*. A test pass for subcategory C1+E upgrades subcategory D1, if held, to D1+E. But a test pass for subcategory D1+E does not upgrade subcategory C1 to C1+E because the trailer size required for a subcategory D1+E test is smaller than that required for a subcategory C1+E test.
[hr:79a32ff13c]
So, the answer is Yes, it would give you B+E rights too.



rayc said:


> This means that if the trailer has a MGW of over 750kg then you are limited to a Train Weight of 3,500kg and that the unladen weight of the vehicle must weigh more than the MGW of the trailer


What you say is correct, Ray. Cat B entitles you to drive motor vehicles not exceeding 3500kg M.A.M. and not exceeding 8 passenger seats (+ driver) towing trailer:
* - not exceeding 750kg MA.M (4250kg tot), OR
* - trailer exceeding 750kg M.A.M. if max authorised combination weight does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and trailer M.A.M. does not exceed the unladen weight of motor vehicle

So (e.g.) a 1500kg towing vehicle could easily tow a 1250kg trailer on a post-1997 Cat B licence. And a 3500kg towing vehicle could tow a 750kg trailer (because 4250kg is allowed). But a 3000kg towing vehicle could NOT tow a 1250kg trailer as the 4250kg allowance only applies to trailers not exceeding 750kg; it could however tow a 500kg trailer.

If as you say, you have a van weighing just about 3500kg and you want to tow a caravan, it'll be the C1+E for you. 

Dougie.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*right*

So if I have read correctly.......Having passed car test in 1983

I can drive

C1
Vehicles weighing between 3,500 kg and 7,500 kg

C1+E
As category C1 but with a trailer weighing more than 750 kg. The total weight of the vehicle and the trailer together can't weigh more than 12,000 kg. The weight of the trailer, when fully loaded, can't weigh more than the unladen weight of the vehicle

?

TM


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*DVLA*

I do feel that the driving licence codes and letters are very confusing indeed. I seem to have a long list and have not got a clue what half of them are for! I do know I am legal though!

Russell


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Dougie, You said "If as you say, you have a van weighing just about 3500kg and you want to tow a caravan, it'll be the C1+E for you."

As I understand it if the tow vehicle is MGW 3500kg then a caravan could be towed with a B+E licence. 

From the DVLA link for B+E 

"Example of category B+E: Motor vehicle with a MAM up to 3,500 kg towing a trailer of any weight over 750 kg."

If the tow vehicle has a MAM of over 3500kg, and towing a trailer over 750kg, then yes C1+E is required.

This technical stuff is good isn't it?

All the best, Ray


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

*Re: right*



teemyob said:


> C1
> Vehicles weighing between 3,500 kg and 7,500 kg
> 
> C1+E
> ...


No grandfather rights licence limit you to a max train weight of 8250kg.

Olley


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: right*



olley said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> > C1
> ...


Olley, correct as you said. The restriction is shown on the licence by Code 107 alongside the C1E catergory.

Perhaps the attached document is a good starting point for anybody who wishes to understand licence group entitlements, licence restriction codes and driving offence codes..
http://www.licencecheck.co.uk/category_codes.php


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Trains*

Thanks for clearing that up.

I will be running around 6ton Train at the moment

I think we would be absolute MAX 7 Tons.

TM


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## gromett (May 9, 2005)

Sorry Ray I sit corrected on the trailer entitlement  
I don't mind being proven wrong lol. I am very wary of advice from people who are not experts in the field due to being a full timer my license is extraordinarily important to me and don't want to risk it.

Thanks Dougge for the clarification and information. Next time I am back in the area I'll get you a few beers in at a pub of your choice ;p

Karl


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: right*



teemyob said:


> So if I have read correctly...... As category C1 but with a trailer weighing more than 750 kg. The total weight of the vehicle and the trailer together can't weigh more than 12,000 kg. The weight of the trailer, when fully loaded, can't weigh more than the unladen weight of the vehicle


Not correct. Nowhere does 12,000kg come into it. All the information is readily available by researching.
[hr:53339b6e2d]*Licences issued between January 1976 and January 1986*
Between 1976 and 1986 your driving licence would have been made of paper with a green background.

The term 'maximum authorised mass' (MAM) means the total weight of the vehicle plus the maximum load it can carry safely.

Old Group A: Motor car and light goods vehicle with up to 9 seats up to 3,500 kg MAM (now Cat B)
Old Group A: Goods vehicle with MAM between 3,500 and 7,500 kg (now Cat C1)
Old Group A: Goods vehicle with MAM between 3,500 and 7,500 kg and pulling a trailer, as long as the total weight of both vehicles is not more than 8,250 kg (now Cat C1E with restriction code 79 or 107)[hr:53339b6e2d]



rayc said:


> As I understand it if the tow vehicle is MGW 3500kg then a caravan could be towed with a B+E licence......If the tow vehicle has a MAM of over 3500kg, and towing a trailer over 750kg, then yes C1+E is required.


I chose not to say "provided your caravan weights less than 750kg" as I assumed his caravan did not! But yes - if his van weighs 3500kg and his caravan weighs no more than 750kg, he would just squeeze into Cat B. :roll: 



olley said:


> No grandfather rights licence limit you to a max train weight of 8250kg


As rayc has said in response to you, that effectively is not correct due to the Code 107 restriction, so you must look at the issue in real terms, i.e. what your overall entitlements WITH RESTRICTIONS mean (i.e. max train weight of 8250kg).

Dougie.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: right*



Rapide561 said:


> I do feel that the driving licence codes and letters are very confusing indeed. I seem to have a long list and have not got a clue what half of them are for! I do know I am legal though


Russell,

You're not an unintelligent chap, and therefore I don't accept that you couldn't ever understand them. All the understanding in the world is available at your fingertips, and that's an amazing thing. Your driving licence with its plethora of Cats and Codes need not therefore be a mystery to you.  The Direct.Gov sites have all the info you need - start with http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_180694 or just use Google for (say) "Code 107 driving licence" or whatever - and become enlightened! I guarantee these issues will become clear to you if you do the research.

Or yer money back. 

(Then YOU can answer these bloody threads... :roll: )

Dougie


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

gromett said:


> Thanks Dougge for the clarification and information. Next time I am back in the area I'll get you a few beers in at a pub of your choice ;p


You still in Louth? I'm having lunch with my daughter there today. I might be persuaded to walk along to the Greyhound afterwards? 

Dougie.


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Licence*

No, I don't want to answer these threads. I find most matters to do with the DVLA to be confusing! LOL

Russell


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: Licence*



Rapide561 said:


> No, I don't want to answer these threads. I find most matters to do with the DVLA to be confusing! LOL


Pah. Thought you were a glorified bus driver too. :roll:

Anyway, what colour are the curtains.......


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: right*



asprn said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > As I understand it if the tow vehicle is MGW 3500kg then a caravan could be towed with a B+E licence......If the tow vehicle has a MAM of over 3500kg, and towing a trailer over 750kg, then yes C1+E is required.
> ...


Dougie, That is not what I was trying to say. I was saying that if the tow vehicle has a MGW of 3500kg then a caravan with a MGW of *more than 750kg *can be towed on a B+E licence. That is the whole puprpose of the B+E catergory.

Ray


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: right*



rayc said:


> I was saying that if the tow vehicle has a MGW of 3500kg then a caravan with a MGW of *more than 750kg *can be towed on a B+E licence


I thought you were referring to just the Cat B.

Stop being difficult. 

Dougie.


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## gromett (May 9, 2005)

asprn said:


> You still in Louth? I'm having lunch with my daughter there today. I might be persuaded to walk along to the Greyhound afterwards?
> 
> Dougie.


Sorry was as Rothwell for a couple of weeks, then at Coninsgby and now at Retford finishing off the sale of my house. I should be back at Rothwell in the next couple of weeks to say hello to Stew and Shona I think before I start on my European adventure 

I will let you know if/when I am up there for a meet up 

Karl


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

gromett said:


> I will let you know if/when I am up there for a meet up


Cheers - PM me.

Dougie.


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