# Tolls to be applied in Germany next year for non-Germans



## dghr272

Reuters are reporting agreement has been reached to apply tolls in Germany for non-Germans only. Good old Angela gets her way. :twisted:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/german-par...l-foreigners-151455001--business.html#gVIz5wZ


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## nicholsong

Well if it happens I will be raising finance for a ferry company operating from Gdansk to Harwich :lol: 

OR for A German company providing subsidiary and registration facilities for all trucks in E. Europe, and accountancy facilities to claim back the tax.

We need more businessmen in politics who can think like tax-avoiders.

Geoff


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## fatbuddha

dghr272 said:


> Reuters are reporting agreement has been reached to apply tolls in Germany for non-Germans only. Good old Angela gets her way. :twisted:
> 
> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/german-par...l-foreigners-151455001--business.html#gVIz5wZ


it's not Angela getting her way - far from it - but the CSU getting their way and having Angela back down.


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## teensvan

We should do the same to everyone who uses our roads from outside the UK. I bet there would a lot of moaning if we went ahead with this.

We would make a fortune with all the Polish and other eastern block vehicles on the road. Might even help get rid of a lot of all the C-ap cars they come over in and help our roads become safe again. 

steve & ann. --------- teensvan


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## snmh1

teensvan said:


> Might even help get rid of a lot of all the C-ap cars they come over in and help our roads become safe again.


The Polish workers picking brocoli on our local farms all seem to have nice Audis and BMWs..


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## goldi

Afternoon all,

Its racism .


norm


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## fatbuddha

teensvan said:


> We would make a fortune with all the Polish and other eastern block vehicles on the road. Might even help get rid of a lot of all the C-ap cars they come over in and help our roads become safe again.
> 
> steve & ann. --------- teensvan


here we go again - let's bash the Eastern Europeans. no worries about the volume of Spanish, German, French, or Italian trucks on our roads then.

and as snmh1 says- many of them have better cars than the Brits.


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## TheNomad

fatbuddha said:


> teensvan said:
> 
> 
> 
> We would make a fortune with all the Polish and other eastern block vehicles on the road. Might even help get rid of a lot of all the C-ap cars they come over in and help our roads become safe again.
> 
> steve & ann. --------- teensvan
> 
> 
> 
> here we go again - let's bash the Eastern Europeans. no worries about the volume of Spanish, German, French, or Italian trucks on our roads then.
> 
> and as snmh1 says- many of them have better cars than the Brits.
Click to expand...

Or Scottish trucks. Or Welsh.


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## dghr272

fatbuddha said:


> dghr272 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reuters are reporting agreement has been reached to apply tolls in Germany for non-Germans only. Good old Angela gets her way. :twisted:
> 
> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/german-par...l-foreigners-151455001--business.html#gVIz5wZ
> 
> 
> 
> it's not Angela getting her way - far from it - but the CSU getting their way and having Angela back down.
Click to expand...

I think she has got her way all right.... put a coalition together at all costs and guess who will head it up ???? 
Despite previously stating there would be no tolls with her...typical politician.


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## GROUNDHOG

Surely the last sentence is rather relevant, the toll will apply to ALL cars but the Germans will be able to claim it back.

A similar scheme is planned for the Tamar bridge and all accesses into Cornwall, everyone will pay but locals will get the money back by discount vouchers available to spend at the local Pastie shop.

Sounds fair to me!


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## Zozzer

All trucks using UK roads should be fitted with a "Go Box". You'll soon find all the East European owner driver ending their journey's at Calais.


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## maomig

Is it compliant with EU regulations about people's equality or free exchange of EU citizens/goods? I don't think so.

Is their right to raise tolls but not to distinguish and apply different treatment depending on your nationality, especially if you are an EU citizen.

Plus, this discriminatory rule could imply also custom fees which cannot be applied in EU.

Or at least this is my reading of it.


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## chasper

GROUNDHOG said:


> A similar scheme is planned for the Tamar bridge and all accesses into Cornwall, everyone will pay but locals will get the money back by discount vouchers available to spend at the local Pastie shop.
> 
> But the best pasties come from Devon, will they have to pay the toll to collect them? :lol: :lol:


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## Stanner

GROUNDHOG said:


> Surely the last sentence is rather relevant, the toll will apply to ALL cars but the Germans will be able to claim it back.
> 
> A similar scheme is planned for the Tamar bridge and all accesses into Cornwall, everyone will pay but locals will get the money back by discount vouchers available to spend at the local Pastie shop.
> 
> Sounds fair to me!


Drat - I'd heard it was UKIP vouchers to use at Trago Mills. :lol:


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## delawaredandy

If one country within the EU brings in additional road taxing for foreign vehicles then all countries within the EU should implement it on a like for like basis, I think it's called playing on a level field. :? :? 

M


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## Penquin

I strongly suspect that the European Commission will interfere with this since several nationalities will be hit by such things, it is a tax which is discretionary and that is not allowed under EC rules.....

The Germans may well just ignore any EC ruling (as the French do), but I strongly suspect that there will be a lot of very strong feelings expressed against such thing at the next EU summit......

Cameroon of course will accept it and not want to do anything similar on UK roads........

but if Scotland gets independence such an extra tax would be heavily applied I am sure as the Scots will not be paying VED presumably so Osborne will have his say........ a tax could be charged and if locals can produce enough pieces of paper of appropriate quality they will get a refund - that will be a growth industry - more bureaucrats (just like France :lol: )

Dave


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## H1-GBV

There have been suggestions that "locals" may get special rates if/when the A14 gets tolled.

However, more and more organisations are coming out against the whole concept - Gordon.


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## Boff

Hi,

let's wait and see. It has never ever happened before that all items of a coalition contract were really put in place. And even if that toll comes, it will certainly not be introduced in a way that violates EU law. So if at all, then it will be a toll paid by everybody, including Germans, and maybe for the Germans this will be compensated by reducing MOT rates a bit.

Maybe, because otherwise this toll will most probably create less extra income than administrative costs. In addition, an autobahn toll would give locals the possibility to opt out and not use the autobahns, but still benefit from the MOT reduction, which would even further reduce the potential income. (Especially those many German households owning more than one car would probably pay the toll for only one car, using the other only for local traffic.)

Having said that, the _emotional value_ of the road toll for the CSU, the Bavarian appendix of the German conservative party CDU, is quite high. In their election campaign quite some connotations like _"Let them bl...y foreigners pay for using our fine autobahns!"_ were to be heard. (Sounds familiar? :wink: ) So even if an EU-compliant road toll turns out to be utter economic nonsense, it might still be introduced nevertheless.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## 113016

Maybe, it is the thin end of the wedge. Worse case is, the French introduce a Go Box type of road pricing for over 3500kg vehicles.
Watch this space


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## Boff

Grath said:


> Worse case is, the French introduce a Go Box type of road pricing for over 3500kg vehicles.


Quite unlikely, because a) in France they already have a well-established toll system, and b) the French toll roads are operated by several different private companies, not by the state like in Austria.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Bubblehead

Is this a bit like people in Essex and Kent only paying £20 per year to cross the Dartford crossing whilst I (and many others) have to pay about £1,500 (£6.20 per crossing) to cross the Severn crossing a year so I can earn a wage to give it back to the government as tax 

Its owned and run by a French company who have it written in UK law that they can increase the charge every year. 2014 will be £6.40, a £44 increase PA. It was £5.50 in 2010, so a 90p increase in 4 years.

http://www.severnbridge.co.uk/Tolls2014.pdf

http://www.severnbridge.co.uk/EETSDomainStatement.pdf

Andy


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## salomon

Penquin said:


> I strongly suspect that the European Commission will interfere with this since several nationalities will be hit by such things, it is a tax which is discretionary and that is not allowed under EC rules.....
> 
> The Germans may well just ignore any EC ruling (as the French do), but I strongly suspect that there will be a lot of very strong feelings expressed against such thing at the next EU summit
> 
> Dave


Didn't Germany ask the EU in advance ? I seem to rember seeing this a few weeks ago. The fella that made the proposal was astonished that the EU said " fine, go ahead " !


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## fatbuddha

IF Germany go ahead with this proposal - and let's hope they don't - I wonder how they'll enforce it???

I can't see toll boths being erected at border crossings as that's a huge and costly undertaking, so I'm kind of assuming they'll do something akin to the Swiss carnet system. alternatively a wider ranging version of the London congestion charge system using ANPR

we shall see


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## Zozzer

fatbuddha said:


> IF Germany go ahead with this proposal - and let's hope they don't - I wonder how they'll enforce it???
> 
> I can't see toll boths being erected at border crossings as that's a huge and costly undertaking, so I'm kind of assuming they'll do something akin to the Swiss carnet system. alternatively a wider ranging version of the London congestion charge system using ANPR
> 
> we shall see


I can see toll booths being erected at the border, they will come in usefull as passport control when the European Union breaks apart.


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## barryd

Fine. Charge tolls if you like but to everyone not just foreigners FFS!

Whats that about?

Totally against EU law I would have thought. And the giving it back as a back hander idea is just underhand.

It wont do much good for their tourist industry if it gets round that you are charged to come and drive around and spend your money but the locals are not.

Wrong.


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## bigtree

When I went onto an Autobahn this year there was a gantry equipped with a variety of cameras which looked very similar to the ones I have saw in Portugal and also in France,in fact now that I have mentioned France what are they going to do with those ones?


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## peejay

bigtree said:


> When I went onto an Autobahn this year there was a gantry equipped with a variety of cameras which looked very similar to the ones I have saw in Portugal and also in France,in fact now that I have mentioned France what are they going to do with those ones?


Probably gantries for the collection of HGV Tolls for Foreign AND German Trucks that have paid tolls for some time in Germany now......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LKW-Maut

As mentioned, this current idea for only foreign cars must surely be proven to be against EU law?

I think the reason we haven't introduced tolls for foreign trucks in this country is because we would have to charge UK registered trucks as well to comply with EU law.
IMO If this all goes through then we should introduce a similar toll for foreign trucks and still keep it tollfree for UK trucks.

Pete


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## Annsman

What happens to all the trade carried by the foreign trucks some people are keen to ban off our roads? How do the imports and exports get delivered without trucks? Like it or not we are living in a country that relies on foreign trade to survive. How do you imagine all the stuff in shops gets there? Trucks! Of all shapes and sizes. 

Even your motorhome was delivered on one!


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## Glandwr

As has been pointed out this is not Merkle or even the Germans that want this. It is a small (the smallest of the 5 parties) populist party of the right that has it's support exlusively in Bavarian. It was their price for supporting Merkle's coalition.

A bit like Farage demanding go boxs for foreign trunks as the price for supporting Cameron.

It's quite a coalition she has cooked up with the second largest party being roughly the equvilent of our Labour Party.

Dick


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## Stanner

peejay said:


> I think the reason we haven't introduced tolls for foreign trucks in this country is because we would have to charge UK registered trucks as well to comply with EU law.


Easy answer, we just introduce a "vignette" that looks just like a UK VED disc and costs the same for foreign trucks as it does for UK trucks - all nice and fair to all concerned.



> IMO If this all goes through then we should introduce a similar toll for foreign trucks and still keep it tollfree for UK trucks.


Problem solved by the solution above.


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## Boff

salomon said:


> The fella that made the proposal was astonished that the EU said " fine, go ahead " !


Yes, but only under the condition that Germans and other EU citizens are treated equally. Which describes quite accurately what the CSU does NOT want ...

There is a possible backdoor, which I already mentioned, that the MOT for cars registered in Germany would be slightly reduced to compensate for the toll.

The coalition agreement which was signed yesterday has the toll written into it, but under three conditions:
1. It must be legal under EU legislation.
2. German car owners must be fully compensated for the additional costs.
3. It must generate a net income.

In my eyes this is just wishful thinking, written into the agreement so the CSU does not loose their face.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## LaMB

This may be of interest and satisfy some. It comes into force April 2014:-

1 HGV Road User Levy Act 2013
In October 2012 the Conservative-Liberal Democrat Coalition Government published the
HGV Road User Levy Bill (Bill 77 of 2012/13). The main features of the Bill passed through
Parliament without amendment and it received Royal Assent on 28 February 2013.1 The
Parliamentary stages of the Act can be followed here http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2012-13/hgvroaduserlevy.html ;
background, including information on
the Eurovignette Directive and the policies of the previous and present governments, can be
found in HC Library research paper RP 12/62. The HGV Road User Levy Act 2013 itself can
be viewed here:- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/7/contents/enacted
The Act provides for a scheme with the following features:
• the levy would apply to both foreign and UK-registered hauliers with vehicles
weighing more than 12 tonnes;
• the maximum daily charge would be the equivalent of €11 (subject to change) and
would be set in accordance with Vehicle Excise Duty bands;
• UK hauliers would receive an offset in their VED so that they would be, by and large,
no better or worse off from the implementation of the levy;
• it would be an offence not to pay the levy, for which the maximum fine would be
£5,000.
The levy is expected to raise in the region of £80 million in total between 2013/14 and
2017/18. All monies raised would go into the Consolidated Fund.

Basically it is against EU law to discriminate against one country as has been said previously, so by reducing the VED on trucks; offsets the new charges - which is legal apparently.

Martin


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## fatbuddha

> Basically it is against EU law to discriminate against one country as has been said previously, so by reducing the VED on trucks; offsets the new charges - which is legal apparently.


which is basically what is said in the original article linked by the OP

"But in a surprise move in October, the EU's traffic commissioner said the plan might be feasible if it was structured so that the toll was imposed on all cars, and German car owners were given off-setting tax relief."

so essentially, everybody pays to use the roads but nationals get some form of tax relief/offset that makes their cost neutral/zero.

I think the key question is - how the charge is implemented for us non-nationals. we shall have to wait and see I guess but I suspect it will be along the lines of the Swiss carnet system.


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## erneboy

I should think that the chances of it being cost neutral for locals in any country are very slim indeed. It's far too good an opportunity to fleece local motorists to allow that to happen. I expect to see VED or whatever reduced by maybe 25%, say £40 annually and the cost of tolls for anyone doing average mileage to be several hundred at least.

On that basis I think the whole business will end up being bad for all of us, Alan.


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## LaMB

The German MAUT system is already in place, so I guess it will just be an extension of that.

What I find very annoying is the variation of charging between countries in the EU - soon we may have very little vision through our windscreens because of all the boxes we need to have for all the countries!


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## Glandwr

There are huge pressures to adopt protectionist policies in the wake of a major recession in all countries. It was what turned the one in the 30s into a depression when international trade went into decline because of it.

Charge them buggers for using our roads is as near as the common man can identify with it these days, and is easy for governments to make a gesture towards. 

On balance though I, like Alan, think that it will just be used to boost tax revenues from the local population as well covertly.

Dick


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## erneboy

Short sighted xenophobia rules. Alongside punishing nasty foreigners shooting yourself in the foot will seem insignificant, Alan.


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## rosalan

Whatever toll is added and wherever, someone will have to pay. If the toll is on HGV's the price of the goods carried will go up and we will pay.
I understand the need for raising money, in all countries but three points disturb me.

1) Where is the European UNION getting united? I thought this was a priority.

2) Whatever toll is introduced, there are no winners, we will all have to pay, whether drivers or customers.

3) The actual setting up and running costs of any toll scheme, will run into millions of Euro's, which we will all end up paying. Did we vote for this?

...... or am I missing something?

Alan


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## nicholsong

rosalan said:


> Whatever toll is added and wherever, someone will have to pay. If the toll is on HGV's the price of the goods carried will go up and we will pay.
> I understand the need for raising money, in all countries but three points disturb me.
> 
> 1) Where is the European UNION getting united? I thought this was a priority.
> 
> 2) Whatever toll is introduced, there are no winners, we will all have to pay, whether drivers or customers.
> 
> 3) The actual setting up and running costs of any toll scheme, will run into millions of Euro's, which we will all end up paying. Did we vote for this?
> 
> ...... or am I missing something?
> 
> Alan


Alan

Of course you did not vote for this or anything else in the E, because the EU Directives are not written by MEPs but by the unelected Eurocrats in the Commission, which in my opinion is an apt word since they 'Commit' crimes against democracy and also should be 'Committed' for them.

With the proliferation of the different systems of charging for road use it is time somebody took a case to the ECHR on the basis of it infringing on one's human rights. Additionally a complaint to the EU Commission on the basis that it denies free movement within the EU.

Geoff


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## Glandwr

I would suggest that no legislation has been written by elected representatives in any European country, least of all ours, for at least a century.

There is an executive and legislative branch in all countries AND the European Union. Elected members direct legislation. The executive (civil service) then codify it hopefully in the spirit. It then is returned to the elected members to actually turn it into law. It will not become law until it is passed by our elected representatives.

Of course it is more convenient for those that wish to pull out from the Union to suggest otherwise but it is not true.

We just need to stop sending dickheads like Farage there so that our interests are properly looked after.

Sorry to go off topic, it must be my tablets :lol: 

Dick


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## fatbuddha

nicholsong said:


> rosalan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever toll is added and wherever, someone will have to pay. If the toll is on HGV's the price of the goods carried will go up and we will pay.
> I understand the need for raising money, in all countries but three points disturb me.
> 
> 1) Where is the European UNION getting united? I thought this was a priority.
> 
> 2) Whatever toll is introduced, there are no winners, we will all have to pay, whether drivers or customers.
> 
> 3) The actual setting up and running costs of any toll scheme, will run into millions of Euro's, which we will all end up paying. Did we vote for this?
> 
> ...... or am I missing something?
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> Of course you did not vote for this or anything else in the E, because the EU Directives are not written by MEPs but by the unelected Eurocrats in the Commission, which in my opinion is an apt word since they 'Commit' crimes against democracy and also should be 'Committed' for them.
> 
> With the proliferation of the different systems of charging for road use it is time somebody took a case to the ECHR on the basis of it infringing on one's human rights. Additionally a complaint to the EU Commission on the basis that it denies free movement within the EU.
> 
> Geoff
Click to expand...

how on earth is charging for road use a breach of one's human rights?? on that basis paying for anything is a breach of human rights!!

and denies "free movement"?? you still have free movement even if you have to pay for it. and it's your choice whether you wish to pay for it - e.g. as in France - nobody compulses you to use the toll autoroutes, it's your choice whether you wish to do so.


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## nicholsong

Dick

You and I know that. I put it more simplistic terms in relation to the EU as to who 'writes', i.e. initiates

In the EU the EU Parliament cannot initiate, or to use your term 'direct', legislation. That power is in the hands of the Commission.

The EU Parliament has little discretion to 'turn it into law' or reject it. Most of the power of the Parliament is confined to returning the proposals to the Commission for reconsideration/re-drafting, but Parliament can only do this once, with the exception of some financial/budget matters.

Our elected representatives (MEPs) in the EU Parliament do not have the power of MPs in the UK Parliament, which is in line with the constitutional model you describe. MEPs cannot throw out a Commission proposal in the way that the UK MPs can kill a Bill stone dead.

This gives those unelected Eurocrats too much power, which is unaccountable to any electorate.

Geoff


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## nicholsong

fatbuddha said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rosalan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever toll is added and wherever, someone will have to pay. If the toll is on HGV's the price of the goods carried will go up and we will pay.
> I understand the need for raising money, in all countries but three points disturb me.
> 
> 1) Where is the European UNION getting united? I thought this was a priority.
> 
> 2) Whatever toll is introduced, there are no winners, we will all have to pay, whether drivers or customers.
> 
> 3) The actual setting up and running costs of any toll scheme, will run into millions of Euro's, which we will all end up paying. Did we vote for this?
> 
> ...... or am I missing something?
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> Of course you did not vote for this or anything else in the E, because the EU Directives are not written by MEPs but by the unelected Eurocrats in the Commission, which in my opinion is an apt word since they 'Commit' crimes against democracy and also should be 'Committed' for them.
> 
> With the proliferation of the different systems of charging for road use it is time somebody took a case to the ECHR on the basis of it infringing on one's human rights. Additionally a complaint to the EU Commission on the basis that it denies free movement within the EU.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> how on earth is charging for road use a breach of one's human rights?? on that basis paying for anything is a breach of human rights!!
> 
> and denies "free movement"?? you still have free movement even if you have to pay for it. and it's your choice whether you wish to pay for it - e.g. as in France - nobody compulses you to use the toll autoroutes, it's your choice whether you wish to do so.
Click to expand...

I was referring to the proliferation of the different systems, not to charging in itself.

If I wanted to travel to the south of France from here I would be passing through Poland, Czech Republic, Austria and Switzerland all of which have different charging systems. In three of those countries I would be obliged to stop, find the appropriat outlet and buy a 'GO' box, charge it with an estimated adequate amount of money, maybe stop again to recharge it and when exiting the country find somewhere to return the box, get back my deposit and reclaim the balance of the credit left in the box. Then entering the next country repeat the process. In Switzerland I would just have to stop to buy a 10 day permit.

Some of the countries charge whichever roads on uses. It is not a choice.

I consider that a severe restriction on my freedom of movement and against my rights as a citizen of a Nation State signed up to EU Treaties.

Geoff


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## fatbuddha

nicholsong said:


> fatbuddha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rosalan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever toll is added and wherever, someone will have to pay. If the toll is on HGV's the price of the goods carried will go up and we will pay.
> I understand the need for raising money, in all countries but three points disturb me.
> 
> 1) Where is the European UNION getting united? I thought this was a priority.
> 
> 2) Whatever toll is introduced, there are no winners, we will all have to pay, whether drivers or customers.
> 
> 3) The actual setting up and running costs of any toll scheme, will run into millions of Euro's, which we will all end up paying. Did we vote for this?
> 
> ...... or am I missing something?
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> Of course you did not vote for this or anything else in the E, because the EU Directives are not written by MEPs but by the unelected Eurocrats in the Commission, which in my opinion is an apt word since they 'Commit' crimes against democracy and also should be 'Committed' for them.
> 
> With the proliferation of the different systems of charging for road use it is time somebody took a case to the ECHR on the basis of it infringing on one's human rights. Additionally a complaint to the EU Commission on the basis that it denies free movement within the EU.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> how on earth is charging for road use a breach of one's human rights?? on that basis paying for anything is a breach of human rights!!
> 
> and denies "free movement"?? you still have free movement even if you have to pay for it. and it's your choice whether you wish to pay for it - e.g. as in France - nobody compulses you to use the toll autoroutes, it's your choice whether you wish to do so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was referring to the proliferation of the different systems, not to charging in itself.
> 
> If I wanted to travel to the south of France from here I would be passing through Poland, Czech Republic, Austria and Switzerland all of which have different charging systems. In three of those countries I would be obliged to stop, find the appropriat outlet and buy a 'GO' box, charge it with an estimated adequate amount of money, maybe stop again to recharge it and when exiting the country find somewhere to return the box, get back my deposit and reclaim the balance of the credit left in the box. Then entering the next country repeat the process. In Switzerland I would just have to stop to buy a 10 day permit.
> 
> Some of the countries charge whichever roads on uses. It is not a choice.
> 
> I consider that a severe restriction on my freedom of movement and against my rights as a citizen of a Nation State signed up to EU Treaties.
> 
> Geoff
Click to expand...

then sadly you are deluded. that system is not a restriction on your freedom of movement, it's a charge to use a road but it doesn't stop you driving on and through the countries if you so wish.

a restriction of freedom of movement is what Eastern bloc countries used to have whereby you needed a permit to travel outside the country borders. there's a big difference between that and charging to use a road.

you could argue that you have a bigger restriction on freedom of movement every time you cross the Channel and need to have your passport checked - yet you can happily whizz across the borders between France/Belgium/Holland/Germany (as I did last week) without interruption or having a passport looked at.


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## nicholsong

fatbuddha said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fatbuddha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rosalan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever toll is added and wherever, someone will have to pay. If the toll is on HGV's the price of the goods carried will go up and we will pay.
> I understand the need for raising money, in all countries but three points disturb me.
> 
> 1) Where is the European UNION getting united? I thought this was a priority.
> 
> 2) Whatever toll is introduced, there are no winners, we will all have to pay, whether drivers or customers.
> 
> 3) The actual setting up and running costs of any toll scheme, will run into millions of Euro's, which we will all end up paying. Did we vote for this?
> 
> ...... or am I missing something?
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> Of course you did not vote for this or anything else in the E, because the EU Directives are not written by MEPs but by the unelected Eurocrats in the Commission, which in my opinion is an apt word since they 'Commit' crimes against democracy and also should be 'Committed' for them.
> 
> With the proliferation of the different systems of charging for road use it is time somebody took a case to the ECHR on the basis of it infringing on one's human rights. Additionally a complaint to the EU Commission on the basis that it denies free movement within the EU.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> how on earth is charging for road use a breach of one's human rights?? on that basis paying for anything is a breach of human rights!!
> 
> and denies "free movement"?? you still have free movement even if you have to pay for it. and it's your choice whether you wish to pay for it - e.g. as in France - nobody compulses you to use the toll autoroutes, it's your choice whether you wish to do so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was referring to the proliferation of the different systems, not to charging in itself.
> 
> If I wanted to travel to the south of France from here I would be passing through Poland, Czech Republic, Austria and Switzerland all of which have different charging systems. In three of those countries I would be obliged to stop, find the appropriat outlet and buy a 'GO' box, charge it with an estimated adequate amount of money, maybe stop again to recharge it and when exiting the country find somewhere to return the box, get back my deposit and reclaim the balance of the credit left in the box. Then entering the next country repeat the process. In Switzerland I would just have to stop to buy a 10 day permit.
> 
> Some of the countries charge whichever roads on uses. It is not a choice.
> 
> I consider that a severe restriction on my freedom of movement and against my rights as a citizen of a Nation State signed up to EU Treaties.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> then sadly you are deluded. that system is not a restriction on your freedom of movement, it's a charge to use a road but it doesn't stop you driving on and through the countries if you so wish.
> 
> a restriction of freedom of movement is what Eastern bloc countries used to have whereby you needed a permit to travel outside the country borders. there's a big difference between that and charging to use a road.
> 
> you could argue that you have a bigger restriction on freedom of movement every time you cross the Channel and need to have your passport checked - yet you can happily whizz across the borders between France/Belgium/Holland/Germany (as I did last week) without interruption or having a passport looked at.
Click to expand...

As you say France/Belgium/Netherlands/Germany is completely unrestricted.

I consider a stop at a border for passport, which is often not even checked, or to drop a few coins or a card in a toll machine a minimal inconvenience compared with the journey and hassle I described.

At the very least the EU should have insisted that these systems were compatible to minimise restrictions. If all 28 EU countries are allowed to introduce their own unique system your journey across those 4 countries(a trip I do twice a year) would have been very different - think about it.

And can you imagine the amount of lost time and money for international hauliers of having to source equipment/permits for 28 countries?

Geoff


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## fatbuddha

don't get me wrong - yes, it's hassle having to conform with different systems but please don't use phrases like "restricting freedom of movement" as it doesn't - freedom of movement applies to the ability that all EU citizens have to move to and reside within any member state without restriction under the rules of the Schengen agreement.


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## Boff

Hi,

I do agree that these many different and incompatible road toll systems are an utter nuisance for every traveller. However, having grown up in a Germany divided by the "Iron Curtain", not being able to keep any contact to my relatives on the other side of said curtain until 1989, I really cannot see this as a restriction to freedom of movement.

Problem is: When it comes to national egoisms, then even the allegedly so powerful EU commission cannot do anything about it.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## nicholsong

fatbuddha said:


> don't get me wrong - yes, it's hassle having to conform with different systems but please don't use phrases like "restricting freedom of movement" as it doesn't - freedom of movement applies to the ability that all EU citizens have to move to and reside within any member state without restriction under the rules of the Schengen agreement.


On a 'point of order' the right of an EU citizen to move to and reside in another EU state is not because of the Schengen agreement, which has more to do with the freedom of movement of EU and Non-EU citizens( once they have proved the right to enter the Schengen area) to travel within the Schengen countries without passport and visa controls.

The Schengen area is not co-ordinated with the EU area, for example UK is not in it, thus UK Border Agency checks for EU and Non-EU citizens, and Norway, a non-EU country, IS in the Schengen area.

Would you be happy if I described the hassle of different toll systems as being a "constraint' on the freedom of movement?

If all countries introduced different systems and I wanted to travel from Poland to UK, I would be looking at ferries.

Geoff


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## nicholsong

Boff said:


> Hi,
> 
> I do agree that these many different and incompatible road toll systems are an utter nuisance for every traveller. However, having grown up in a Germany divided by the "Iron Curtain", not being able to keep any contact to my relatives on the other side of said curtain until 1989, I really cannot see this as a restriction to freedom of movement.
> 
> Problem is: When it comes to national egoisms, then even the allegedly so powerful EU commission cannot do anything about it.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Gerhard


Gerhard

I know you think it is unlikely that this idea will become actual.

Another poster thought that if it did become actual the government could extend the existing 'Toll Collect' (GAUT) system to cars.

I have looked at that system and it does not look as though it could manage the volume of cars, including all those transitting Germany only occasionally.

If they had to start a new system for cars and trucks up to 12tonnes it would be another reason not to do it.

What is your opinion?

Geoff


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## Boff

nicholsong said:


> Another poster thought that if it did become actual the government could extend the existing 'Toll Collect' (GAUT) system to cars.
> 
> I have looked at that system and it does not look as though it could manage the volume of cars, including all those transitting Germany only occasionally.
> 
> If they had to start a new system for cars and trucks up to 12tonnes it would be another reason not to do it.
> 
> What is your opinion?


*If* it is at all possible to introduce a road toll system in Germany that fulfills all three demands of the coalition contract (EU conformal, no extra burdens for German drivers, but still financially beneficial), then this must be an absolutely *primitive*, low-cost, low-maintenance system. No re-use of the Toll Collect system, no electronics, no manned toll boths, no satellite tracking etc. Only a sticker would do, if at all.

But, as said, I have severe doubts that even a simple sticker solution would fulfill the demands. So in my opinion this has just been written into the contract to give the new gouvernment the option to opt out of this commitment and blame the EU for it, so the CSU does not appear loosing their face.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## jrr

Joining the debate a bit late, but here is a relevant article:

The Economist


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## satco

well , let us talk it over from the perspective of a German citizen.


- we pay an annual car tax . the tax is calculated on engine size and engine type (gas/diesel) and pollution. my good "old camel" costs me 480.- Euro a years car-tax. ( just as an instance)

-we own 3 cars , an old Opel Corsa for my HER (cheap one  ) , an Audi quattro for me (not so cheap) and finally the "old camel" our MH.
we would have to pay toll for every car , let`s say 100.- Euro/year.

-if we go and add all sums , we finally end up with about 1200.- Euro a year. this is damned unfair , isn`t it ?

-so things will work fine when everyone entering Germany will have to pay the same road toll as we Germans do. And the specific German car-tax must be lowered by the amount of toll expenses for Germans. fair ?


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## nicholsong

satco said:


> well , let us talk it over from the perspective of a German citizen.
> 
> - we pay an annual car tax . the tax is calculated on engine size and engine type (gas/diesel) and pollution. my good "old camel" costs me 480.- Euro a years car-tax. ( just as an instance)
> 
> -we own 3 cars , an old Opel Corsa for my HER (cheap one  ) , an Audi quattro for me (not so cheap) and finally the "old camel" our MH.
> we would have to pay toll for every car , let`s say 100.- Euro/year.
> 
> -if we go and add all sums , we finally end up with about 1200.- Euro a year. this is damned unfair , isn`t it ?
> 
> -so things will work fine when everyone entering Germany will have to pay the same road toll as we Germans do. And the specific German car-tax must be lowered by the amount of toll expenses for Germans. fair ?


Satco

As I understand it you are suggesting that if a German car is taxed at Euro 100 any non-German car entering Germany should also pay Euro 100. The German car may be doing many thousand kilometres in a year whereas many foreign cars cross into Germany once a year - I do it once for 6 hours from Gorlitz to Nederlands border. So I ask you is it fair to pay the same toll for that journey as a German car does for a whole year?

If all countries in Europe charged in the same way a trip that I am planning: Poland-Germany-Nederland-Belgium-France-UK-France-Spain-Portugal and returning through Switzerland-Austria-
Czech-Slowakia, that would cost Euro 1,300 of which 800 would be for just crossing countries.

I do not consider that paying the same to use a country's for one day or for a whole year to be fair at all 8O 8O Especially because there is no reduction of tax. There could be no reduction of tax in Poland, because there is no car tax.

Geoff


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## Zozzer

There is another way of looking at this, if I'm paying a toll for travelling across EU countries should I get road tax rebate for days I'm out of the UK.


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## foxtwo

What a funny discussion!

Nothing is decided up to now, the so called "coalition contract" is not yet in force, cause it still has to be approved by the coalition parties and their basis. Nobody knows, what will happen with the "coalition" in the near future anyway in case the "basis" will not aggree.
Nobody knows how a new Maut system will be performed or whether it will be performed anyway, all what has been said by the politicians is a declaration of an intention only..... but everybody is discussing heavily......very funny.

For me the present political condition is like in a madhouse.
And not only inside Germany even the neighbours seem to be infected already.

Great stuff, please do me a favour and continue discussing.

Bernd


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## Boff

Hi,

some comments from another German citizen (though not living in Germany anymore).



satco said:


> - we pay an annual car tax . the tax is calculated on engine size and engine type (gas/diesel) and pollution. my good "old camel" costs me 480.- Euro a years car-tax. ( just as an instance)


Currently there are approximately 43.4 million passenger cars registered in Germany. Altogether their owners pay about 7 billion € car tax per year. Makes an average of 160 € per car per year. Would the car tax be reduced by 100 € per year to compensate for 100€ road toll, then the income from the car tax would drop from 7 billion to 2.7 billion. The remaining 4.3 billion € would have to be brought up by the road toll.



satco said:


> -so things will work fine when everyone entering Germany will have to pay the same road toll as we Germans do. And the specific German car-tax must be lowered by the amount of toll expenses for Germans. fair ?


No, neither fine, nor fair!

Passenger cars from foreigners only make up about 5% of all German passenger car traffic. And a certain proportion of them might decide not to buy a road toll sticker and stay off the motorways while in Germany. But let us assume that 90% will pay the toll, then this generates an income of roughly 200 million € per year.

Now the administrative costs of a road toll would be at least about 300 million € per year; under the condition that the simplest possible way of toll collection, a sticker, is used. So the administrative costs alone would be considerably higher than the income from foreign cars. Therefore, if German cars would be fully compensated, the road toll would mean a *loss of income for Germany!*

In addition, when foreigners have the option not to buy the road toll sticker, then Germans must have the same option according to EU regulations. And I am quite sure that especially households owning more than one car, like yours and mine, would make use of that option and start using some of their cars only for local traffic and only one for long-distance traffic. This would increase the losses for the German state even further.

And there is another catch: Quite a few German passenger cars, especially the small and more environmentally friendly ones, pay considerably less than 100 € car tax per year. And as you cannot pay less tax than zero, owners of such cars would have to pay even more than before, while owners of big, gas-guzzling cars would benefit the most.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## nicholsong

Bernd

I think that many people have become sceptical about decisions that affect their lives being taken by politicians, pushed through into legislation, without much public discussion or the ability of the electorate to have a say.

Therefore I think that now there is an atmosphere of cynicism and mistrust of politicians, among the people of many countries, and a desire to discuss and examine any suggestions which might affect their lives. 

Also, having seen something negative happening, there is a greater desire to intervene to prevent it.

What we are seeing in this discussion is the early scepticism developing into mistrust, maybe in this case fuelled by a suggestion that the proposal would affect some people more than others.

Geoff


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## Glandwr

What is proposed is not a toll, but a tax. The roads have been built and paid for. Any "tolls" collected will go to the govt. 

The EU ruling is quite right under the current law you can't tax foriegners for using something that is not taxed on your citizens.

The compromise about a quid pro pro to German citizens is an unworkable fudge dreamt up to enable Merkle to put together a coalition. The more you think about it the more holes appear in the plan. What for instance happens to foreigners who work and live in Germany?

As far as put forward by politians Geoff? Isn’t this a grass roots demand from the right of centre party in Bavaria that is anxious to appeal to it's grass roots. They see foreign trucks carrying goods between the northern and western industrialised parts of Germany (that might as well be a different country) and Italy. Causing wear on the roads that the State of Bavaria has to fund.

Xenophobia is rampant right across Europe following the crash and many centre right parties are having to pander to it to stop their voters going further right.

Merkle is however a skilled politician, and with the help of her left of centre major coalition partners should be able to sideline this I am sure.

Dick


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## 79144will

I think Germany and all eu countries should charge tolls for all roads so stopping all travel,We would not need any vw cars no motorhomes no porches or bmw`s or audi or rolls royces,we could stop all tourists hire cars,and buses,and trucks,we could all go by train,then the greens would have us all back in the dark ages,with maybe a horse and cart,but would you have to pay a toll for the road ,maybe to clean up the horse SH-T, where do we get polititians from ? yes I know iv`e spelt it wrong,but the tit in the middle was lovely,regards to all Bill


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## nicholsong

Glandwr said:


> What is proposed is not a toll, but a tax. The roads have been built and paid for. Any "tolls" collected will go to the govt.
> 
> The EU ruling is quite right under the current law you can't tax foriegners for using something that is not taxed on your citizens.
> 
> The compromise about a quid pro pro to German citizens is an unworkable fudge dreamt up to enable Merkle to put together a coalition. The more you think about it the more holes appear in the plan. What for instance happens to foreigners who work and live in Germany?
> 
> As far as put forward by politians Geoff? Isn't this a grass roots demand from the right of centre party in Bavaria that is anxious to appeal to it's grass roots. They see foreign trucks carrying goods between the northern and western industrialised parts of Germany (that might as well be a different country) and Italy. Causing wear on the roads that the State of Bavaria has to fund.
> 
> Xenophobia is rampant right across Europe following the crash and many centre right parties are having to pander to it to stop their voters going further right.
> 
> Merkle is however a skilled politician, and with the help of her left of centre major coalition partners should be able to sideline this I am sure.
> 
> Dick


Dick

Your analysis is probably correct.

But can you imagine the outcry within Germany if Bavaria tried to charge vehicles from NordRhein and Saxony - that would put the whole idea in context  :lol:

Geoff


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## Stanner

Never mind we'll be able to charge the Scots for getting to Dover soon. :wink: 

That should increase the chances of getting a direct ferry link back....


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## Boff

Glandwr said:


> Isn't this a grass roots demand from the right of centre party in Bavaria that is anxious to appeal to it's grass roots.


More to appeal to it's beer gardens. :wink: And not at all grass roots, rather a well-calculated, populistic, borderline xenophobic appeal to the average beer garden customer.



Glandwr said:


> They see foreign trucks carrying goods between the northern and western industrialised parts of Germany (that might as well be a different country) and Italy. Causing wear on the roads that the State of Bavaria has to fund.


That's just one of the funny things about it. The toll would be taken from the autobahn users, and the autobahns, even those on Bavarian territory, are entirely funded by the Federal gouvernment in Berlin, NOT by the State of Bavaria.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Glandwr

Thanks Gerhard. The Economist article quoted above suggested the Barvarians wanted the power for THEIR state to impose the toll. The country wide toll and quid pro pro seem all part of the fudge. 

Are the States reponsible for the maintainance?

Dick


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## Boff

Glandwr said:


> The Economist article quoted above suggested the Barvarians wanted the power for THEIR state to impose the toll.


This must have been some kind of misunderstanding. The State of Bavaria simply does not have that kind of authority within Germany's federal system. And had they really openly suggested that, it would have caused an uproar from all other Federal states.



Glandwr said:


> Are the States reponsible for the maintainance?


No. Autobahns and Federal roads ("Bundesstrasse") are built and maintained by the Federal gouvernment.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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