# Advice please



## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

Hi could anyone advise us of the following we have a Swift Bolero.

My Son is due to fly home later this month with his GF from a three month tour of the world, he would like us to meet him at the airport.

My other Son and his Wife along with their new baby want to come too, obv the baby would have to sit in the front passenger seat in his baby chair, so legally going to the airport in our MH we would have four adults and one baby.............how would we stand coming home with 6 adults and one baby ? my Son that has been travelling has said that after a night flight and a cuppa they would love to have a kip whilst travelling home on the fixed bed.

We are unsure as to how we stand ref insurance etc we would love to meet our Son in MH as we could cook him a english breakky etc I would appreciate any help esp from Swift.

Thanks Briarose


----------



## 104705 (May 24, 2007)

Sounds dangerous to me. Remember the pizza advert?


----------



## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

Freetochat said:


> Sounds dangerous to me. Remember the pizza advert?


No I don't that is why I want to be sure what is legally right and obv right for us as I understand it passengers are allowed on the side facing seats......just not sure how many obv it is a 4 berth MH

I spoke to someone at Brandy Wharf last week that had travelled home when unwell in bed so also wanted to check that, I wouldn't want to do anything that isn't legal or safe hence my asking now.

The babies chair would be as it would in a car in the passenger seat and belted in as in the car rear facing............no probs with that side just as to how many passengers in the back.


----------



## rickwiggans (May 10, 2006)

You have two questions here:

Is legal? - my understanding is that you can travel without seatbelts if the vehicle has seats which are not required to have them, which applies only to older motorhomes, so depending on the age of your M/H, you may be legal.

Is it safe? - no.

Rick


----------



## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

rickwiggans said:


> You have two questions here:
> 
> Is legal? - my understanding is that you can travel without seatbelts if the vehicle has seats which are not required to have them, which applies only to older motorhomes, so depending on the age of your M/H, you may be legal.
> 
> ...


It is a new MH 4 berth obv the side seats have no seat belts so I would presume that is legal.


----------



## Fatalhud (Mar 3, 2006)

Hi use to do it all the time in my racing days
Regular woken by pans ect flying out of cupboards as stand in driver took corners to quick
good laugh but a bit dodgy
I would think that if it is designated as a 4 berth then having 6 could effect insurance if god forbid something should happen
Don't know on the legal side 
would think it was down to judgement of bobby and circumstances
Alan H


----------



## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks as I say we won't meet my Son in MH if it isn't the correct or right way to do so.......just wanted to check with those in the know.


----------



## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Have a look at your V5.

How many seats does it quote?


----------



## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

Briarose said:


> It is a new MH 4 berth obv the side seats have no seat belts so I would presume that is legal.


So does that mean that you do have seat belts fitted to some of the rear seats? In which case my understanding is that you cannot carry more passengers than you have seat belts for.

In older motorhomes without rear seat belts you can carry as many passengers as you have seats for (up to your weight limits) I believe.

But safe? No.


----------



## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

I tried to sleep in the rear fixed bed whilst my better half was driving up the motorway. 
It wasn't uncomfortable if you don't mind the all over massage at just 65mph (yes we can get up to that downhill). I couldn't sleep and went back to my belted front passenger seat and slept there. 
A friend has side seats in the back and found it too dangerous to put anyone side by side there since with even moderate braking there is a tendency for heads to clash. 
Just because it's legal doesn't make it safe - as an earlier post said - remember the pizza advert.


----------



## Steamdrivenandy (Jun 18, 2007)

I think you'l find that under relatively recent legislation you can only carry the same number of people as you have seatbelts, in the Bolero's case that'll be a driver and one passenger.
Travelling in side facing seats (or in bed) is illegal.
As has been said earlier it's also very dangerous in an accident or sudden manoeuvre. 
I've seen earlier threads on the subject which quote the actual law involved and the DfT website has details.

Andy


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

I get slightly annoyed at all these unsafe comments! It sounds as though you are setting out to have an accident. There was a time we all drove perfectly legally without seat belts! I though only forward facing seats had to have seat belts? 

I would be more concerned with the number of passengers making the van overwieght and exceeding seats available. Leave the son with wife and baby at home sounds a much better solution but where do you park a motorhome at the airport?.

peedee


----------



## corgi (Mar 9, 2007)

Spent yesterday getting insurance quotes for our new van to be registered Jan 08. One of the questions frequently asked was how many forward facing seats & are they belted (4).
This leads me to beleive that I will only be able to carry 4 persons under the insurance agreement.
I suggest you check with your insurers.


----------



## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks for the replies obv this is why I asked as there is no way we would want to do anything unsafe or illegal :roll: 

I have a shop in our seaside resort which overlooks a main road and I often see passengers sat in the backs of motorhomes around the back tables etc etc I also read on another forum that to sit on the side facing seats is legal which is why I wanted to clarify this subject.

What is also confusing is that my friend has a Autotrail 4 berth MH with two fixed beds (singles) and also a lounge area that sleeps 2 they haven't got the overcab bed as well, but on some models like my friends there is that option therefore making that model a 6 berth so in that scenorio you would have a 6 berth MH that could only carry 2 passengers as only two seats have seat belts.

The other option I guess is to have seat belts fitted to the side seating.

If our other Son doesn't come with us to the airport we will just go in the car, as even then for us to go to stay overnight and bring back four passengers in a 4 berth MH according to some posts would be illegal.

Peedee my friend picked her daughter up last year and rang the airport before setting off, they said it was fine to spend the night in the MH as the flight arrived around 6am as the airport was a 4 hour drive this proved a great option for them.

As I have already said there is no way we would want to put any of our family in danger hence asking the question in the first place and you can see why it is confusing and of course for anyone intending to holiday with family worth knowing the answers before buying a MH to suit a family.


----------



## Wizzo (Dec 3, 2007)

peedee said:


> I get slightly annoyed at all these unsafe comments! It sounds as though you are setting out to have an accident. There was a time we all drove perfectly legally without seat belts! I though only forward facing seats had to have seat belts?
> 
> I would be more concerned with the number of passengers making the van overwieght and exceeding seats available.
> 
> peedee


Nobody sets out to have an accident peedee, but the fact of the matter is that it is unsafe compared to being belted in. Having said that, I have an older motorhome without rear seat belts and I have carried passengers in the rear lounge. We are all adults and you accept that at times in your life you take a risk or two.

JohnW


----------



## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

I have just found a very informative discussion 
http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/chatter...eadPage=4&ReturnPage=Search&search=&searchIn= which more or less answers everything.

Also checked the V5 thanks we will leave MH at home and just the two of us pick our Son up..........thats the beauty of the internet isn't it.


----------



## rickwiggans (May 10, 2006)

The situation is, as far as I can make out, that following recent legislation, if there are seatbelts they must be worn. At present, you can carry additional, unbelted passengers. From May 2009, IF there are belts in the rear, you can only carry the same number of passengers as there are belts. The paradox is, if there are no belts, you will be able to carry unbelted passengers.

None of this makes carrying unbelted passengers safe - but as is rightly pointed out above, we all take calculated risks every day. Actually, I suppose carrying unbelted passengers is safe. It's only if you crash it becomes an issue!

It isn't unusual for there to be more berths than belts. we have two belts, but four berths. Maybe over the years this will change as the seatbelt legistaltion kicks in

Rick


----------



## SwiftGroup (Jun 27, 2007)

Hi Briarose,
Basically the law says the driver has to wear a seat belt and any children have to be secured either in a child seat and/or an approved seatbelt. (see attached link for exact details)

Adults have to wear seat belts if provided. Seat belts will only be provided in Motorhmes for forward facing and rear facing seats, the law prohibits side facing seat belts.

hope this helps 
thanks Andy - Swift Technical

http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/campaigns/childcarseats/pdf/law-leaflet.pdf


----------



## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

SwiftGroup said:


> Hi Briarose,
> Basically the law says the driver has to wear a seat belt and any children have to be secured either in a child seat and/or an approved seatbelt. (see attached link for exact details)
> 
> Adults have to wear seat belts if provided. Seat belts will only be provided in Motorhmes for forward facing and rear facing seats, the law prohibits side facing seat belts.
> ...


Hi Andy thanks for the link, we had originally planned that the baby seat would be in the passenger seat so that was fine.................actually your link has answered a question my Daughter in Law has mentioned before ref taxis, although she isn't planning to use them we have discussed what happens with people who haven't got a car and want to take a baby in a taxi.

Our other option now is for us to go in MH whilst my Son takes his car that way we can stop for lunch etc our V5 does say 2.

Just spoken to my friend on the phone and she is interested also in this topic as they planned a trip soon with 3 adults, although she too has no seat belts in the back of their new MH.

Suppose this is one case where a car and caravan win :wink:


----------



## EJB (Aug 25, 2007)

Insurance/Legalities!!!!

My only consideration is .... IS IT SAFE????? 8O

I don't need to paint a picture!
Surely there must be a few responsible adults on the forum :wink:


----------



## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

EJB said:


> Insurance/Legalities!!!!
> 
> My only consideration is .... IS IT SAFE????? 8O
> 
> ...


I think by asking a question that you aren't sure about you are being responsible surely that is what forums are for, you then make a decision based on that.

I have now made mine thanks to the sensible replies.


----------



## Suenliam (Mar 22, 2006)

Without wishing to prolong this discussion unduly, I was advised by my "instructor" on the one day training in manoeuvring the MH that one of the checks to do before starting the engine was to make sure there were no loose items (including people) in the MH. Whilst static they were no problem, on the move they could turn into lethal weapons as they do not respond sensibly to emergency breaking and (god forbid) a head on crash. 

I know the instructors must do the health and safety bit very thoroughly, but where my life is concerned I am happy to listen and act on their advice. 

Sue


----------



## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Legal? Possibly but would you want to be in a position to find out? Insurance ? Could be invalidated completely if too many passengers. Comments made about weight are very relevant. As an aside we used to drive ambulances, most had seat belts for passengers but then the side facing ones were deemed not safe as they don't work properly due to forces etc. Now ambulances can only carry a very limited number of people (crew of two plus patient and one other normally) in specified positions and must leave other seats empty due to weight restrictions and licensing. Travelling in the back of an ambulance flat is one thing, but is not very comfortale and can make many people travel sick. I suspect (but don't know definitively) that your vehicle would not be suitabe for that number of passengers, and in the unlikely event that there was a road traffic collision (not even your fault) your insurance would not be valid. Check with them before going any further. Fitting seat belts to the back of a MH as a retrograde act is very difficult because under Construction and se legislation the installer has to satisfy their safety and very few installers are in a osition to do that. The proble is that there is nowhere to fix them securely, remember if you have an AlKo chassis drilling through it weakens it.........
Best advice, don't put yourself or your family in the position that there might be problems, it's not worth it and you would never sleep easy if anything *did* happen.


----------



## duds (Sep 23, 2007)

Just to clarify for you, as a lawyer myself, you can only legally carry one passenger if the MH has one seat belt each for driver and passenger. 

The seats must be forward facing to carry a seat belt which are legally and correctly installed under the R T Regulations.

Your insurance would otherwise also be invalidated if you had an accident with a third party or anyone was injured whilst being carried.

Do not risk being caught by Police if random stopped or in the event of an accident


----------



## chapter (May 1, 2005)

so what about the payload i think you will be way over so the insurance is nil and void 
chapter


----------



## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

chapter said:


> so what about the payload i think you will be way over so the insurance is nil and void
> chapter


As I have already said in our case we have asked the question, got the answer etc and *won't be taking the MH *so sorted however there is another interesting discussion in MH chit chat that might help others :wink: I am glad I raised the subject as I do feel it is something that some people may not be aware of...........members with larger MHs and families etc etc or even Grandparents who MH taking children away on holiday................I know I have witnessed people travelling in the backs of MHs on many occasions.

*Edit to add before we bought our MH we looked at a used Kontiki fixed bed with overhead cab bed and also side seats, the gentleman selling it was telling us how he along with his wife and his Son & family Grandchildren etc had just been abroad, as I say some folk might not even be aware of any issues.


----------



## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

I havent read all the replies to Briarose's original post but I have basically got the gist of how the majority of people feel but one thing puzzles me regarding seatbelts and motorhomes etc.

Why do the manufacturers design and make motorhomes to sleep 4, 5 and 6 persons but then not provide safe and legal seating in order to carry that number of passengers? Surely, if a dealer/manufacturer sells you a vehicle large enough to accomodate your sized family and then it turns out it is either illegal or dangerous to carry that amount of passengers safely then surely they have misinformed you and sold you something that is not fit for the purpose it was intended? For example what if a family with 4 children go into a dealers looking for a vehicle large enough to accomodate them all and the salesman, keen to notch up another sale shows them a 6 berth motorhome with an over the cab bed, a fixed double bed and lounge area that can made up into a further double bed but it only has 2 seats (the driver's and the passenger's) that has seatbelts fitted. The other seating areas are side facing bench style seats! Surely, if a customer were sold this motorhome on the basis that it would accomodate their sized family then this is not strictly true is it and surely if this were the case, the misimformed and ill advised customer would have the right to demand a full refund?

We have a 4 berth Auto Trail but only our passenger and driver seats have seat belts fitted and I tell you I will be most annoyed if it turns out we cannot in fact carry anymore than 2 passengers! Obviously, nobody wants to break any laws or put their passengers at risk in any way but surely the in and outs and legalities of such serious matters as this should be pointed out to potential customers by the salesmen selling these motorhomes and if we cannot carry any passengers we wouldnt have opted for this particular model!

Sue


----------



## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

This site should be of help to you:

http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/campaigns/childcarseats/faq08.htm

along with Pippin's advice to check your V5


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

duds said:


> Just to clarify for you, as a lawyer myself, you can only legally carry one passenger if the MH has one seat belt each for driver and passenger.
> 
> The seats must be forward facing to carry a seat belt which are legally and correctly installed under the R T Regulations.
> 
> ...


Hi

I am not trying to enter into an argument over this as I do feel that the regulations are complex but Duds statement above is not, shall I say, all encompassing .

Here are links to two pieces of information where the currect regulations are described.... read them and make up your own mind. LINKS:

Seatbelt law in simple form from LawontheWeb <<<

This link is to a PDF document recently posted on MHF by Swift Motorhomes in This thread.

Link to PDF document <<<<

For my part I have seat belts on the drivers seat and the front passenger seat and I will continue to carry unbelted adult passengers in the rear on the sideways facing seats when necessary ( as I have said earlier this does not often happen, _so please dont get too agitated_)

Mike


----------



## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks for that link Mike, I was quite interested in the following



> &#56256;&#56457;
> It is not illegal to carry unrestrained adult passengers within the accommodation area while travelling, providing the vehicle is not overloaded.


----------



## Chascass (May 10, 2007)

For what it's worth, I have just put the phone down after being assured by Saga that I am insured to carry the amount of people the motor home is designed to sleep ( in my case 6 ) respective of how meany seat belts the van has ( in my case 2 ) my V5 also states 2 seats.

Charlie


----------



## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

Chascass said:


> For what it's worth, I have just put the phone down after being assured by Saga that I am insured to carry the amount of people the motor home is designed to sleep ( in my case 6 ) respective of how meany seat belts the van has ( in my case 2 ) my V5 also states 2 seats.
> 
> Charlie


That is interesting Charlie and thanks for posting it.


----------

