# Definition of weights (again?!)



## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

Sorry, I'm sure this has been covered before but trying to search didn't help me with a definitive answer.

A recent thread mentioned speed limits being related to 'Unladen Weight'. I can't find this referred to as such in my handbook and the DirectGov page entitled "Vehicle Weights Explained" 
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022708
doesn't help much.

There, it defines Unladen Weight as:

The unladen weight of any vehicle is the vehicles own weight when not carrying any goods or burden. This is:
inclusive of the body and all parts which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road
exclusive of fuel and, in the case of an electrically powered vehicle, the batteries

My handbook includes MTPLM (Maximum Technically Permissible _Laden_ Mass) - can't be that.

MRO (Mass in Running Order - ah, that seem similar - only as well as crockery (!), tools, driver, spare wheel and tools it includes coolants, washer fluid and 90% automotive fuel - so it can't be that.

Mass of the User Payload - carrying capacity including all the stuff we carry plus passengers but not the driver - ain't that.

Mass of the Conventional Load = weight of passengers excluding driver - so it's not that.

GTM & MBTM - these include trailer - not those

So none of these appear to be the Unladen Weight - so what is it?

:? 8O


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

The definition of Unladen Weight for UK law purposes as in "A vehicle registered as a Motor Caravan with an Unladen Weight of less than 3,050 kg has speed limits of 50/70/70..." is

"Unladen weight
The unladen weight of any vehicle is the vehicles own weight when not carrying any goods or burden. This is:

•inclusive of the body and all parts which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road
•exclusive of fuel and, in the case of an electrically powered vehicle, the batteries"

This does not relate in any way with the MIRO [Mass in Running Order] used by MH manufacturers who give the unladen weight in accordance with EC 92/21 directive.
Rapido for instance say:
"REMEMBER
When purchasing a RAPIDO, the unladen weight includes the weight of the vehicle's standard equipment.The unladen weight of camping-cars is determined in compliance with the laws currently in force and includes the vehicle in working order, the driver (75kg), the gas bottle, fresh water and fuel tanks up to 90 % of their capacitywith a tolerance of +/-5 % (in accordance with European Directive EC 92/21).

Therefore it is impossible with the information given by manufacturers in accordance with EC 92/21 to absolutely confirm that the UK Unladen Weight is less. It is though very likely as it does not contain an allowance for the driver or 90% habitation water and gas.

The 'unladen weight' in Rapido's statement is not the same as the Unladen Weight in UK law.


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

God only knows Roger - it's a complete mystery as to why they still refer to the unladen weight when it isn't easily identifiable.

I suppose in a standard panel van it could be found, is it on the log book?
But in a motorhome? :?: What that description would imply is that it would be the MH without any water etc. I have pondered over this, as I'm not sure whether my maximum speed on a motorway is 60mph or 70mph. I would suspect that I would be on the borderline of 3150kg - which I think is the threshold used. So imagine the scenario, I get pulled in for doing 70; I say well I think I'm under 3150 so I CAN do 70; do they challenge that and take you to the weighbridge, clear out any superfluous stuff, etc, and then weigh it? Nah, 'course they wouldn't! (I hope) Well it would be a fairly unlikely event that I would be doing 70 anyway, it has been known, but as a tight-arsed accountant I can't afford to go that fast!! :lol: 

Nonsensical antiquated rule....


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

bognormike said:


> God only knows Roger - it's a complete mystery as to why they still refer to the unladen weight when it isn't easily identifiable.
> 
> I suppose in a standard panel van it could be found, is it on the log book? But in a motorhome? :?: What that description would imply is that it would be the MH without any water etc. I have pondered over this, as I'm not sure whether my maximum speed on a motorway is 60mph or 70mph. I would suspect that I would be on the borderline of 3150kg - which I think is the threshold used. So imagine the scenario, I get pulled in for doing 70; I say well I think I'm under 3150 so I CAN do 70; do they challenge that and take you to the weighbridge, clear out any superfluous stuff, etc, and then weigh it? Nah, 'course they wouldn't! (I hope) Well it would be a fairly unlikely event that I would be doing 70 anyway, it has been known, but as a tight-arsed accountant I can't afford to go that fast!! :lol:
> 
> Nonsensical antiquated rule....


But of course you do not need to attain 70mph to be booked. With a motor caravan of over 3.05t Unladen Weight the speed limit on a normal road is 50mph and 60mph on a dual carrriageway. On a motorway it does not matter as over or under 3.05t unladen the speed limit for a motor caravan is 70mph.

It is my belief that if your motor caravan has a MGW of 3.5t or less i.e. is tax class PLG, then they would accept your arguement but if taxed as PHGV you will have to work hard to convince them it has an unladen weight of less than 3.05t.

Note that this law does not apply to 'panel vans' as they come under different rules based on their MGW.

It only applies to:
passenger vehicles, dual purpose vehicles, motor caravan, and car derived vans which either exceed 3050kg unladen or 8 passenger seats or not. Plus some restrictions if over 12m in length.


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

thanks Ray, and we're supposed to KNOW all this stuff? :roll: and yes, mine's taxed as PLG.


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## salmonfisher (Jan 3, 2011)

*M/Weights*

Hi. I am reading this thread with interest. Surely the important thing is weight allowed ,not speed. I dont think one can trust manufactures or dealer to keep you within the law. Get the dealer to the vehicle take to a weighbridge, without habitation water, calor bottles,with fuel at gallon.Then start adding the driver and passenger weight, plus the previous items. How many of you are driving over the alloted 3500kg weight then, fully loaded.? So can we have a list of M/Hs that have a decent payload.I am wrestling with this problem at the moment. To avoid random spot checks.John


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

*Re: M/Weights*



salmonfisher said:


> Hi. I am reading this thread with interest. Surely the important thing is weight allowed ,not speed. I dont think one can trust manufactures or dealer to keep you within the law. Get the dealer to the vehicle take to a weighbridge, without habitation water, calor bottles,with fuel at gallon.Then start adding the driver and passenger weight, plus the previous items. How many of you are driving over the alloted 3500kg weight then, fully loaded.? So can we have a list of M/Hs that have a decent payload.I am wrestling with this problem at the moment. To avoid random spot checks.John


Avoid a tag axle configuration as they can very easily go overweight on the front axle.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: M/Weights*



salmonfisher said:


> Hi. I am reading this thread with interest. Surely the important thing is weight allowed ,not speed. I dont think one can trust manufactures or dealer to keep you within the law. Get the dealer to the vehicle take to a weighbridge, without habitation water, calor bottles,with fuel at gallon.Then start adding the driver and passenger weight, plus the previous items. How many of you are driving over the alloted 3500kg weight then, fully loaded.? So can we have a list of M/Hs that have a decent payload.I am wrestling with this problem at the moment. To avoid random spot checks.John


 It is completely irrelavent how far your motor caravan is under it's MGW as far as speed limits are concerned. The speed you are allowed to travel at depends upon the Unladen Weight. Speed is important if you are accused of being over the limit for your vehicle.
The original post was asking about the UK law definition of Unladen Weight. The only relavence to it as far as motor caravans are concerned is the speed limit you are allowed to do.

MH manufactures must declare the 'unladen weight' in accordance with EC 92/21. This stipulates what must be included and is the starting point. I don't see that a trip to the weighbridge is neccessary at anywhere near the stage of buying a MH. Look at the manufacturers 'unladen weight' and deduct it from the plated MGW. This determines what weight is left for passengers, awnings, solar panels, second battery etc etc.
What would be a reasonable figure? If the manufacturer gives an 'unladen weight' of 3100kg +/- 5% and the MGW is 3500kg then there is perhaps only 345kg left in the worst case for anything you fit to or load into it including passengers.
Surely the starting point before buying is to determine how many of you will be travelling and what extra items you want to fit. Deduct the 'unladen weight' from the MGW and if there is enough capacity to fit the items and people then you are in business.


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## salmonfisher (Jan 3, 2011)

*Weights / again*

Hello.Whilst I agree with racy. In principle, then why does Pilote supply the Pilote Explorateur on a 3500 chassis, having a unladen weight of 3155. The vehicle weighs that plus 5%. My partner and I weigh 150kg in total, ie 9stone and 14 stone. add the fuel,water, clothes, crockery, nevermind passengers and you would have to drive in your underwear. My point is this and vehicles of its type should never be plated 3500. Hence the call for a list. Most dealers secondhand do not quote both the required figures. Corect me if I am wrong. John.


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## salmonfisher (Jan 3, 2011)

*M/h Weights*

oops. Sorry I ment. RAYC. John.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: Weights / again*



salmonfisher said:


> Hello.Whilst I agree with racy. In principle, then why does Pilote supply the Pilote Explorateur on a 3500 chassis, having a unladen weight of 3155. The vehicle weighs that plus 5%. My partner and I weigh 150kg in total, ie 9stone and 14 stone. add the fuel,water, clothes, crockery, nevermind passengers and you would have to drive in your underwear. My point is this and vehicles of its type should never be plated 3500. Hence the call for a list. Most dealers secondhand do not quote both the required figures. Corect me if I am wrong. John.


It's along time since anyone agreed with me or called me racy  .

If Pilote have given the unladen weight in accordance with the EC directive it will already include 75kg for the driver and 90% fuel and domestic water and gas.

If you are saying that you think that the MGW of many MH's is too low when taking normal use into account then I completely agree with you.
My MH is supplied in 3500, 3700 and 4250kg variants. Mine is 4250kg and even taking into account the heavier 3L engine, Alko chassis and 16" wheels which make it heavier I believe that the 3500kg is incapable of being used to anywhere near it's space and storage capabilities.
Next time you go round a show take a look at those large 3500kg MGW MH's and ask yourself do you really think they are capable of being used to anywhere near their size, passenger and storage potential?


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

I absolutely agree with you racy RAYC!

And until the likes of MMM start saying 'Not fit for purpose' instead of praising the stylish new design, then the manufacturers are not going to take any heed.

I challenged someone at the Belfast show who was displaying an Aspire. It was showcased in MMM last year with a pitiful payload that was noted in the article but not stamped on.

The dealer told me they were upgrading all the Aspires FOC to 3.85T - but that's no good if you've already bought and you don't have the licence for a heavier van.

Rant over!


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

This is confusing already!

So this is only relevant around the 3050kg mark then? And of course UK only?

To me the Directgov link seems to be a MHs MIRO having taken the weight of fuel off, but thats just my opinion! So includes the microwave if its built in, but not the teabags.  But overall sounds more like a goods vehicle definition 



rayc said:


> It only applies to:
> passenger vehicles, dual purpose vehicles, motor caravan, and car derived vans which either exceed 3050kg unladen or 8 passenger seats or not. Plus some restrictions if over 12m in length.


Mine is a motor caravan over 3050kg under 12m, so despite 9500kg actual I'm not limited to the LGV 40 limit on single carraigeways? Its worse at that weight since even less info seems available, but sticking to LGV limits aren't too hard even if they are wrong


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

grizzlyj said:


> Mine is a motor caravan over 3050kg under 12m, so despite 9500kg actual I'm not limited to the LGV 40 limit on single carraigeways?


If it is registered as a Motor Caravan and has an Unladen Weight in excess of 3.05t then it's speed limits are 50/60/70. The only difference if it were over 12m length is that you would be restricted to 60mph on motorway, the single carriageway and dual carriageway remaining as the under 12m limits of 50/60mph.


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## salmonfisher (Jan 3, 2011)

*Motor/home weights*

Hi. So its nice to know I am not the only one that thinks, the better quality M/Hs are not for us 3500kg punters. Not for us to be able to load up properly and Swan off. Only with a medical if you are over seventy. The M/h that I spoke of when weighed came in over 3000 without passenge,driver or water on board. Am I right, do manufactures hide behind the fact that it doesn't matter how much It weighes as long as the vehicle is under 3500kg with driver passenger water, fuel etc.Leaving us to travel over weight with a *** packet. John.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

ALL the manufacturer is concerned with is selling Motor Homes !!!

Because of the 3500Kg limit on newer (since 1997) car licences many of them (Rapido being one I am aware of) produce motorhomes that are CAPABLE of having a max gross weigh (MAM) of 4000Kg 

HOWEVER this means that to drive it legally you must have the requisite driving licence So Rapido (and others!!) "get round" the problem by downgrading them (initially) to 3500Kg so they can be driven on a "normal" car licence and thus make them attractive to the holders of such licences, most of who dont understand just how little payload that gives them. The makers dont care, they have sold another MH !! 

The 4000Kg and 3500Kg vehicles are identical its just the makers decide (cynically in my view) to "downplate" them at 3500Kg to widen the customer base. 

Remember its not the manufacturer who gets fined if a MH is found to be overweight !!!


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Mrplodd said:


> ALL the manufacturer is concerned with is selling Motor Homes !!!
> 
> Because of the 3500Kg limit on newer (since 1997) car licences many of them (Rapido being one I am aware of) produce motorhomes that are CAPABLE of having a max gross weigh (MAM) of 4000Kg
> 
> ...


Perhaps an easy way round it would be to increase the weight limit for Group B licence holders to 4250kg?
I cannot see that this has any safety implications as you can currently legally tow a trailer up to 750kg with a 3500kg tow vehicle thus having a Train Weight of 4250kg on a Group B only licence.

My Rapido is rated at 4250kg, is it in anyway more difficult to drive than its 3500kg and 3700kg variants? It is the same size, height and length.

One thing I am not sure off is how those motorhome users I see towing a car behind them keep to the terms of their Group B only licences. Perhaps they all have group B+E or C1 ?


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Ray

Thats the whole point of my post, the vehicles are EXACTLY the same except for the MAM/GVW  

I suspect the rule on 3500Kg was brought in to limit the number of new (very young??) drivers who could pass their test and then leap into small HGV's with a GVW of 7490Kg i.e. JUST under the 7500Kg point at which you require an HGV/Lgv But thats just a guess.

Like you I am certain that a LARGE number of TOAD users dont actually hold the correct licence to tow a trailer (the toad) over 750Kg. About the only "car" that comes under that weight is a Qpod !! (or possible a Gwiz  )


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## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

Thanks to all for the interesting replies, which seem to confirm that the "Unladen Weight" is virtually impossible to determine from the array of weighting information given by the manufacturer. 

However, what I believe I have managed to glean correctly is that the "Unladen Weight" as defined by DirectGov for the purposes of speed limits must be less than the MRO given by the manufacturer (since the latter includes things like fuel etc which the former excludes). It follows that since my vehicle's stated MRO is less than 3050, plus the fact that my V5C confirms my body type as MOTOR CARAVAN and my Taxation Class as PLG (although no weight is shown) then I can legally continue to drive at the same maximum speeds as a car if I wish.

Phew! :roll: 

And to cap that, good old Justine's gonna let us do up to 80mph on the motorways from next year! 8O


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Well you wont see me doing 80 on a M/way in my MH !!! Think of the fuel consumption


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## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

Mrplodd said:


> Well you wont see me doing 80 on a M/way in my MH !!! Think of the fuel consumption


Ah but you could always tow your own linked mini-tanker behind, as long as you don't exceed your Gross Train Mass :lol:


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

rogerblack said:


> Mrplodd said:
> 
> 
> > Well you wont see me doing 80 on a M/way in my MH !!! Think of the fuel consumption
> ...


Tut Tut! 

I am sure you know the motorway speed limits for a motor caravan towing a trailer and no matter who is the Transport Secretary it will never be increased to 80mph.


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## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

rayc said:


> rogerblack said:
> 
> 
> > Mrplodd said:
> ...


Ooops! I stand corrected and hang my head in shame  :lol:

In my defence, it's years since I towed a trailer and had hence forgotten what I once knew - like so many other things as the brain cells decay


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## JohnandChristine (Mar 19, 2012)

Hi
I've been reading all this with much interest.
We have just bought an Aspire 215 and are having it uprated.
The V5 says unladen weight now is 3300kg and the taxation class PLG.

The MH is currently plated at 3500 but is going to be plated to 3700, giving us another 200kg of personal payload.
My licence will be ok for this. ( I'm old )

As I don't know much about the meanings of unladen, gross, max laden, MPTLM etc etc, I would like to know if my MH will be subject to slower speed limits.
Are the limits based on revenue/unladen figures ( which in my case I think should remain at 3300 ) or what it weighs when fully legally loaded ( 3700 ). 

And how does all this apply in europe :roll: :roll: :? :?


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

RX12 said:


> Hi
> I've been reading all this with much interest.
> We have just bought an Aspire 215 and are having it uprated.
> The V5 says unladen weight now is 3300kg and the taxation class PLG.
> ...


I have checked the MH manufacturers [Elddis] specification for your model and the MGW is 3300kg and Mass in Running Order [MIRO] is 3060kg. The V5 Revenue Weight is the MGW not the Unladen Weight. By uprating it appears you are going from 3300kg to 3700kg, an increase of 400kg.
What does the Elddis VIN plate say? That is the plate that counts not the base vehicle manufacturers one.

http://www.elddis.co.uk/motorhomes/1014/aspire_215.html

With regards to speed limits in the UK lower limits apply on some class of roads if the unladen weight is over 3050kg. Note this is the UK C & U defined Unladen Weight and not neccesarily that given by MH manufacturers in accordance with an EC directive [MIRO].
In France the speed limit is reduced in accordance with the MGW and if over 3500kg lower limits apply on some class of roads. I am not absolutely sure of the all the remainder of Europe.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

rayc said:


> RX12 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi
> ...


Further to my post above Elddis say that "FREE Personal Effects Payload Upgrade (upgrade to 3700kgs MTPLM for 200kgs additional user payload)".
It would appear then that the upgrade gives 200kg of user payload and 200kg is used up by the technical mods of the Payload Upgrade - whatever it is?


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## JohnandChristine (Mar 19, 2012)

Hi Rayc
I just checked the Peugeot vin plate. It says 

3300
5300
1-1750 i guess thats the front axle
2-1900 I guess thats the rear axle

Not sure where the Elddis plate is yet, still looking.

The dealer told me verbally it will go up to 3700 without any technical mods, other than a replacement plate showing 3700.

Now if my arithmetic is correct, that gives another 400 on top of the 240 ? Phew !
But he also said it would add 200.

I dont think I've got to the bottom of this yet :? I suspect being over 3500 will trigger different speed limits, and I'm still trying to work out if 3700 takes it into PHGV instead of PLG, with the lower tax of £165.
Or is the PHGV based on the unladen weight which should still be 3300.

Good one isn't it ???

John


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

I may be wrong, but I think the confusion arises because all of the other Aspires are built on the 335 LWB chassis derivative, which has a MTPLM of 3500kg. The Aspire 215 is unique in the range of being built on the 333 MWB chassis, which has a MTPLM of 3300kg.

So on the other models, an upgrade to 3700kg would indeed give another 200kg of payload.

According to this article in Practical Motorhome, on the 215 the upgrade is only to 3500kg.

If all of this is (as I read it) a paper exercise rather than anything mechanical changing on the motorhome, it would have no impact on (UK) speed limits as these are based on the unladen weight which isn't changing. Whether your tax changes will depend on whether it goes over the 3500kg.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Rosbotham said:


> I may be wrong, but I think the confusion arises because all of the other Aspires are built on the 335 LWB chassis derivative, which has a MTPLM of 3500kg. The Aspire 215 is unique in the range of being built on the 333 MWB chassis, which has a MTPLM of 3300kg.
> 
> So on the other models, an upgrade to 3700kg would indeed give another 200kg of payload.
> 
> ...


I suspect you are correct but something is confused somewhere. Elddis spec for the 215 says "FREE Personal Effects Payload Upgrade (upgrade to 3700kgs MTPLM for 200kgs additional user payload - excluding Aspire 265).

I cannot see the logic of plating at 3300kg in the first place if all that is required is a plate change for 3500kg. What would be the benefit if any of the 3300kg limit in the first place?


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

Yes but it says the same text against all of the model specs. As I say the 215 is on a different chassis with a different standard MTPLM so inherently it can't apply to that as well. It's a c0ckup by their marketing dept in my view.

Edit : forgot to add, Elddis use the standard Peugeot chassis, so the initial plating is just what Peugeot put on there, I think.


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## JohnandChristine (Mar 19, 2012)

Hi
That indeed makes sense, and maybe my dealer is confused over 3500 or 3700.

If it goes up to 3500 I'll have user payload of 400kg, and I guess by leaving off some water, or keeping the fuel tank to only half full, I'd be even better off.

I'll check that my dealer understands these figures and that the plate being made for us by Elddis is going to apply to the 215 and not the larger models.

I agree there may well be a mess up by the Elddis marketting, I'm going to find out,one way or another..................


Thanks again for all contributions here.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

I would be inclined to contact the manufacturer to get a definative answe IN WRITINFG rather than rely on the dealer. 

In my experience dealers seldom understand the intricacies of weight as applied to MH's, all THEY are interested in is getting their hands on your hard earned!! They will then wash their hands saying something along the lines of "Its up to the purchaser to ensure they are legal no us" 

To quote that age old latin saying "Let the buyer beware" (dont know what the latin words are) which still applies legally !!


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## JohnP10 (Sep 27, 2009)

Hi,
The unladen weight of a vehicle is not stated on the V5.
It can only be obtained from the manufacturer of the vehicle itself, not the converter.
It is the weight of the vehicle as it rolls off the production line, without any oils, lubricants, coolants, fuel, spares etc., also without any crew members.
The only relevance unladen weight has to any vehicle is to determine wether it is a light or heavy motor car, tractor or road locomotive.
For MHs it is not relevant ib deciding taxation class or driving licence entitlements. That would be the MGW alone.

What many think is the unladen weight is the weight of the vehicle with fuel, spare wheel, tools etc. waiting to be loaded.
That would be the vehicle's Kerbside weight. (What some folk refer to as Tare weight).


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## JohnandChristine (Mar 19, 2012)

If I recall correctly, Its Caveat Emptor, ......buyer beware.

I'm going to get on to Elddis to sort this out.
We'll see what they say then.

Something is definitely not adding up here, and its not helped by all the legislation and names given to types of weight.

How the heck will the police know what to go on if I ever got stopped and weighed ( I know thats unlikely, but i suppose its the whole reason for having the correct plating on the MH ).

John


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

JohnP10 said:


> The only relevance unladen weight has to any vehicle is to determine wether it is a light or heavy motor car, tractor or road locomotive.
> For MHs it is not relevant ib deciding taxation class or driving licence entitlements. That would be the MGW alone.


For vehicles registered as a Motor Caravan the unladen weight is relavent as it is the unladen weight which decides the speed limit applicable on different road catergories.
Under 3050kg unladen weight it is 60/70/70 for Single Carriageway / Dual Carriageway / Motorway. Over 3050kg and the limits are 50/60/70.


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## Jak (Mar 16, 2010)

This issue caused me some concern many months ago and I thought I had resolved it. As Rayc pointed out the MH MIRO [Mass in Running Order] is defined by EC 92/21 directive which states:

'mass in running order' means
(a) in the case of a motor vehicle:
the mass of the vehicle, with its fuel tan(s) filled to at least 90 % of its or their
capacity/ies, including the mass of the driver, of the fuel and liquids, fitted with
the standard equipment in accordance with the manufacturer's specifications
and, when they are fitted, the mass of the bodywork, the cabin, the coupling and
the spare wheel(s) as well as the tools;

If the "Unladen weight' of any vehicle is the vehicles own weight when not carrying any goods or burden

•inclusive of the body and all parts which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road

•exclusive of fuel and, in the case of an electrically powered vehicle, the batteries"

Then surely it is a simple task to simply deduct from the MIRO the weights of - water, gas, fuel, etc to determine the unladen weight.

My MH has a MIRO of the order of 3200kg and for many months I had driven around assuming the speed limit was as per a car. It was only on reading an item in this forum that I became aware of the ambiguity of the term 'unladen weight' with respect to motorhomes. On studying the matter I concluded that given the MIRO was so close to 3050kg there was no chance the unladen weight was in excess of this figure.

If I was ever accused of exceeding the UK 50/60 speed limits on the basis of 'unladen weight' classification I would certainly argue my case on the above basis. Am I correct?


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Jak said:


> ....Then surely it is a simple task to simply deduct from the MIRO the weights of - water, gas, fuel, etc to determine the unladen weight.
> 
> My MH has a MIRO of the order of 3200kg and for many months I had driven around assuming the speed limit was as per a car. It was only on reading an item in this forum that I became aware of the ambiguity of the term 'unladen weight' with respect to motorhomes. On studying the matter I concluded that given the MIRO was so close to 3050kg there was no chance the unladen weight was in excess of this figure.
> 
> If I was ever accused of exceeding the UK 50/60 speed limits on the basis of 'unladen weight' classification I would certainly argue my case on the above basis. Am I correct?


_

It could at the end of the day end up with you having to convince a Magistrate, or on appeal a Judge, as each case will be taken on its merits. Having said that I would initially provide the defence you have offered above and I doubt the Police / CPS would run with it. They prefer cases where they have a greater certainty of winning.
Don't forget to deduct the 78kgs allowed for the driver in MIRO which is not included in the Unladen Weight.

There was a lot of talk a few years ago about standardising motorway speed limits for HGV and PCV, which includes motorhomes, but it appears to have died a death .
http://news.erento.co.uk/news/02749...eed-limit-would-affect-motorhome-drivers.html_


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## JohnandChristine (Mar 19, 2012)

Well after two phone calls to Elddis I *think* I am making progress.....

I am still waiting written confirmation of this ( why does it take so long ) but these are the true figures given to me over the phone by the technical support department.

Standard spec

MIRO 3060 ( not 3100 as in my user handbook )
MTPLM 3300 
User Payload 240.

Free upgrade

MTPLM becomes 3500 ( not 3700 as stated on their website )
new user payload 440kg.

As that Meerkat says ' shimples '

It only begs two questions.

1. Why the heck didnt Elddis state the higher figures as the original spec. There is no mechanical change to the vehicle, no suspension stiffening, no change of anything. Its just a replacement weight plate, and its still within the 3500kg range so there is no knock on effect on licence conditions or classification of the vehicle into PHGV.
All this messing about and producing new weight plates to be fitted by the dealer is costing somebody, and we know who always pays in the end.....

2. Why didn't anybody at Elddis check these figures before release onto the website, the sales brochures, and the owners manual. 
The fact that the press have reviewed this model and stated that the payload may be low for some users, can only be detrimental to Elddis Sales efforts.
It doesn't take long to proof read and cross check important information that customers will use to decide whether or not to buy.

Tut Tut , everyone is in such a hurry these days, nobody pays attention to detail, ' near enough is good enough' etc etc.

In my day, if you made a c0ck up that embarassed the firm, you lost your job, or at least your promotion chances. Nowadays the answer is retraining. Why should anyone bother to get it right ?

Ok Rant over 

Our 215 is now back at the dealers, having some minor snags cured, and we still await the new plate from Elddis Lets hope it says the correct figures. :lol:

If any other members have a 215, or are thinking of it, please get in touch and I'll go through things for you. We are more than pleased with ours and once these snags are overcome, all will be fine.

John


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## JohnandChristine (Mar 19, 2012)

Good news.

Elddis have today amended the figures on their website, ( Aspire 215 Technical Specification ), and I have an email from them confirming these figures, and my user payload is now 440kg. Sorted.

I have to say that Customer services, particularly Kirsty, have been very helpful.


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Pity they couldn't make it 3501 Kg then you could save yourself £50
a year in road tax. :wink: 

tony


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

Well John this is a question I just asked in a new topic
Why do builders plate a vehicle at 3300 when it could be 3500?
My autocruise is 3300 and I'm enquiring with SVTECH about the extra 200


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## JohnandChristine (Mar 19, 2012)

Well Just to close this saga, we now have the new plate on, it says 3500kg Gross, meaning our payload is now 440kg.

Elddis have updated their website with the correct figures now.

And everyones happy.


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