# Uprating question



## Scolds (Jul 26, 2010)

We are close to placing an order for a new Hymer 514 SL with an uprated plate to 4,500kgs this will give a 'Max payload approx' of 1150kg. Plenty for 2 of us although we will have 3 bikes and a 125 scooter in the garage.

Now I say that as the price list states 1150 for a 4.25. 

So my question is: Is there any reason not to uprate to 4.5 or would 4.25 be better for some reason I don't understand. We both passed our tests before 1997 (I think the date) so have the correct over 3500 cat on our licences.

I have spent a good 45 mins searching to see if this has been covered but found no answer. 
:roll: 
Your comments welcomed.

Scolds


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

Only thing I can think of is that you could possibly reduce your towing wt.

Dick


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

There may be a reason why it can't be uprated to 4.5t. Sometimes, the uprating (or upplating) is just an administrative exercise, but at some point, you'll need to uprate your suspension or brakes or something like.

I'd check with SVTech before you commit, and check with them what the maximum uprated MAM is you can have on your van.

There are sometimes penalties on some roads for heavier plated weights, but I can't imagine why you'd want more than 1150kg payload, unless you intend to carry a load more stuff with you (not always a good idea, IMO).

Gerald


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## JeanLuc (Jan 13, 2007)

Given your intended loading in the garage, I suspect there are two more important load limits to consider as well as MAM.
Firstly, can the garage take the weight you want to put in it? It is carried on the rear chassis extensions (part of the ALKO system in your case) and there will be a max load limit for the structure. our Starline (2003) has virtually the same layout as the present 514, but it's on a Sprinter chassis and from memory, I think our garage limit is around 350kg.
Secondly, assuming the garage limit is not a problem, make sure you will not overload the rear axle.

So, in addition to having sufficient overall MAM for your expected payload, be aware that load distribution will also be important. There is little point in getting a big MAM increase if the rear axle limit means you will have to carry a lot of the usable payload inside the van towards the front, rather than in the garage, or on a rear bike rack.

Philip


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## TDG (May 26, 2009)

Scolds said:


> ....... this will give a 'Max payload approx' of 1150kg. Plenty for 2 of us although we will have 3 bikes and a 125 scooter in the garage.....


*1150 Kg* :?: :roll: 8O 

PS Why don't you put wheels on the house :?: :roll:


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## soundman (May 1, 2005)

I thought the 514SL was on a Fiat 3500kg chassis upgradeable to 3850kg giving 440kg/790kg payload?
Where does 1150kg come from.
I also would think that whatever plate you have the garage would only hold the same (around 120kg-150kg)
Soundman


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## Brock (Jun 14, 2005)

It's good to see you taking the weight issue seriously. The advice posted is good and should be followed.

What we want to know, as a couple in a Hymer who happily load within 450kg and walk, why you would need 1150kg, 3 bikes and a scooter? Are you approaching this from 'how much can we cram in and therefore what chassis do we need?' Most of us pack the minimum we can get away with and accept motorhoming is a compromise. The phrase, 'If you don't use it in 12 months, don't carry it for the next 12 months spring to mind'.

Motorhomers are very helpful and often nosey!

The heavier you are, the more wear and tear on the mechanicals and your fuel consumption. What engine are you using to pull this weight? I fear the 2.3l will provide leisurely performance at 4500kgs.

The Hymer is a great van and whatever you decide to do, it'll give you years of excellent service.


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## soundman (May 1, 2005)

_'If you don't use it in 12 months, don't carry it for the next 12 months spring to mind'. _
I like that comment.
After spending all day yesterday emptying our van pending the new one coming next week, I think an Ebay session is looming!
Having a 1200kg+ payload in the old van meant not having to give much consideration to weight.
Things will now change as we are downsizing
Soundman


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## MyGalSal (Dec 8, 2008)

The new 2011 'SL' models are coming in at 4.25T upgradeable to 4.5T (at a possible cost of £211 depending on deal agreed with dealer). Don't know about 2010 models.
Why not have a big payload available should you wish to use it? To coin a very well used phrase 'horses for courses'.
And in answer to OP I don't believe there is any difference between 4.25 and 4.5 regarding insurance, breakdown, motorway tolls whatever. Go for it!
Sal


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## JeanLuc (Jan 13, 2007)

Some further thoughts related to my earlier reply. Regardless of the MAM upgrade to the chassis, most van tyres of the type fitted to motorhomes have a load index of 112/110. This means they can carry 1120 kg each if used singly and 2 x 1100 kg per pair if used in twin formation. This means the maximum axle loads that the tyres can bear are 2 x 1120 = 2240 kg for single tyres and 4 x 1100 = 4400 kg when used in twin wheel formation. (Note I am referring here to single or twin wheels on a single rear axle, NOT twin-axled vehicles - often called Tag axles, although this is a misnomer.)

So, in the case of a B514 which has a single rear axle with single wheels, your axle limit is likely to be 2240kg unless you get some pretty special tyres.

With a MAM upgrade to 4500 kg, you will have to get 4500-2240 = 2260 kg over the front axle in order to use the full payload, and that, as I guess you have already spotted, will be beyond the tyre limit for the front axle!
In addition, it will be practically impossible to distribute the full payload to get that much weight over the front axle anyway unless you park the scooter behind the front seats and put a generator in the passenger's footwell. Sorry, this last comment is flippant, but I think you need to consider very carefully, the amount of payload you really need. If you must carry a lot, you should consider a motorhome with twin rear wheels and that means, in the case of a Hymer B Class, a bigger one built on a Sprinter or Iveco chassis.

Philip


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## Scolds (Jul 26, 2010)

First off I am impressed with all the replies - thank you.
So I was not saying that I wanted to carry as much weight as allowed I was just referring to what the price list states that a 4.25 uprate/upplate will allow. When I mentioned 3 bikes they are going on the bike carrier on the back and see the garage as the scooter 's location. Hymer advertise with pictures of scooter s in garages so have not thought to ask if it can take the weight. I will confirm this however on inspection of the floor it is very strong and have not considered the extra floor plating.
I think I maybe didn't ask the right question as in is there any difference between 4.25 & 4.5?
In answer to your comments: 

Glandwr We don't plan to tow at present as we want the ability to turn around when we go the wrong way.
geraldandannie I see it as only an admin exercise and it costs €250. 

JeanLuc Very good points that I will investigate, thanks. Also we are on a limited amount to spend so a larger vehicle is out of the question, added to that we don't want anything longer.
soundman We have decided that we want automatic due to ankle injuries so went for the 'Fiat Ducato Maxi 4.0 t 3.0 Multijet option.
This allows an uprating to either 4.25 or 4.5t I couldn't see a reason not to have the 4.5

Brock The bit about the ankle explains the transport ideas and the fact that we want to tour on a permanent basis in years to come. The scooter is to allow maximum flexibility for getting out and about. I have said that we are getting the 3 Ltr as we have to to get an automatic.
I don't want to carry as much as possible and I hate using too much fuel.

MyGalSal Thanks, I think that is the answer I was after that there is no real difference apart the amount you can legally carry.


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## JeanLuc (Jan 13, 2007)

Final thoughts on this (for the time being). Given your engine and transmission options, bear in mind that these will affect payload. The Hymer model brochure normally specifies the weight data for a standard vehicle. As soon as you fit more things, the MIRO goes up and the payload goes down accordingly. I am not sure what is included in the current weight declaration, but in an older model brochure, the weight of extras was specified.
Just in case you haven't worked out the various terms, they are as follows:

Unladen Weight (a pretty meaningless term for a motorhome as it refers to the weight of an empty vehicle - motorhomes are seldom entirely empty).

Mass in Running Order (MIRO) - the weight of the motorhome including a 75kg driver, 90% fuel and gas, full fresh water (normally) and EHU cable. Note that not all manufacturers include all elements although this is becoming standardised I believe.
N.B. In some cases, Hymer quote the MIRO with a part-full fresh water tank. Typically this will be with 70 litres in a 120 litre tank, with the footnote that the tank can be full if pay-load allows. This is a result of the fact that many continental motorhomes are plated at 3,500 kg for local tax / driver regulations.

Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) - this is the maximum fully-loaded weight of the motorhome. Also called Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) or Maximum technically Permitted Laden Mass (MTPLM).
Note that MAM is normally LESS than the sum of the front and rear axle limits combined. Neither MAM, nor axle limits must be exceeded.

Payload = MAM - MIRO

Gross Train Weight (GTW) is the maximum weight of motorhome plus any towed trailer. It is the biggest number on the weight plate.

In case it is of any help, I attach an analysis of the effect of "extras" on our motorhome.

Philip


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## Scolds (Jul 26, 2010)

Thanks Philip,

I am going to knock up a spreadsheet of all the extras etc and then ask the dealer about the weight that can be carried in the garage.

Robin


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## MyGalSal (Dec 8, 2008)

Scolds
You have a PM
Sal


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## tony50 (Oct 16, 2007)

Scolds said:


> We are close to placing an order for a new Hymer 514 SL with an uprated plate to 4,500kgs this will give a 'Max payload approx' of 1150kg. Plenty for 2 of us although we will have 3 bikes and a 125 scooter in the garage.
> :roll:
> Your comments welcomed.
> 
> Scolds


The bikes and the scooter in the garage? as said above check the weight what the rear axle and the garage can take ,you don't want to wear the tyres out of the bikes as they go through the floor!!
Also (as I was in the Motor trade ) I would have thought with all that weight you need a 3 Litre at least with what you are intending to pull,it's better to be overpowered than under powered .The Merc. is a dream to drive and quiet .

Tony A


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## Scolds (Jul 26, 2010)

Just an update, I have found the calculation that tells me a 120kg moped in the garage on the 514 would increase the rear axle weight by (see calculations:
Wheelbase mm	3450	
Distance rear ax to centre point of moped area 1400	
Moped kg	E 120.00 
Front ax -48.70 kg
Rear ax *168.70 kg * 
Wheel base again	3450	
Distance to bikes	2400	
Bikes kg	E	56.00 
Front -38.96 kg
Rear *94.96 kg *

The bikes are on the back of the van. I also spoke to the AL-KO chaps at their stand in the NEC asking if I would be ok on the 4.0 t chassis. Their feelings were that it was fine but I also spoke to a couple of suspension firms and one does rear only air for about £1500 and the other full levelling air for around £3500. It is a lot of money but far cheaper than the £7000 that Hymer charge. I won't be even thinking about having it fitted unless I have a problem with the ride.

Then I will start saving, lol. That said I am now convinced that the Maxi chassis up plated to 4.5 is the 100% correct decision for us as the extras alone weighed in at an amazing 344 kg.

I know that less extras, no moped are all options but as we are planning to full time in a few years I am trying to get everything right now. If I am 80% successful it won't be too bad.

Regards to all, Scolds


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## MyGalSal (Dec 8, 2008)

Scolds - respect! Your calculations look very impressive to me. I could never get my head round Maths! So respect!

I lived in Bermuda for a number of years and a local expression was 'Girl, you make me holler!' So: Boy, you make me holler! You got it aced!

Sal


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