# Wild campers or Gypsies?



## vilasalvas (Nov 14, 2006)

Can somebody explain to me why some people condone the situation of parking up at the coast, living there for weeks on end, but then go into spasms about Romany travellers arriving in their village for a month or two. What is the difference? I have seen expensive £100k motorhomes right down to converted B.T. vans, all leaving some sort of mark on the landscape when they depart. Don’t get me wrong, a lot of people clean up after them, but some don’t. 
I live in the Algarve and see allsorts of nationalities parked up in any unfenced piece of land or car park and then proceed to use it as their own, sometimes for weeks on end. Wild campers are getting the reputation down here of really just being glorified gypsies. I can see the situation of true “Wild Camping” in the middle of nowhere, and I have done it myself in the wilderness in America, but turning wasteland and car parks into shantytowns is just not nice for the area. Just before Christmas the GNR (Police) were handing out 300-euro fines to deter these people and as Portugal is really strapped for finance at the moment I can only see this situation continuing. The argument that these people bring a fortune to the area is also wrong. The camping community is renown for being frugal, and after all I should know, I am one.


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## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

Vilasalvas,

Fair point. I haven't been to Portugal but I will take your word for it. 

1. The trend is for Travellers with money to buy motorhomes. I've seen them in France, for example, on a Municipal site. 

2. The result is a blurring of the distinction between so-called wild camping and travellers' encampments. 

3. We cannot expect the general public and the Police to make fine distinctions. In the end all MHers will suffer more restrictions. 

4. Personally I would not consider a car park as a place I where I would choose to spend my limited holiday time. :roll: Wild camping is for wilderness areas. 


SD


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## ActiveCampers (Jun 17, 2005)

I'm sure you are going to get flamed for the original post  I would guess most people here think there is a distinct difference - but thats just symantecs.

I completely agree with you.

the only difference I can see is
- We won't leave rubbish
- We will be friendly and if asked to move on we would without hesitation
- We don't have violent dogs or kids that **** in on the path
- The local crime rate would not soar (well - bar using "free" wifi )
- We would only stay a day or two.


But with an open perspecitve - no difference at all.


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## davesport (Nov 12, 2006)

Wild campers, me for instance won't

1. Offer to tar your driveway.
2. Arrive en masse in the middle of the night.
3. Depart en masse whilst leaving their rubbish including human waste, which the council then have to clean up (whilst suitably attired for dealing with low level biohazard waste)
4. Try to gain entry to the rear of your property to "see if your needing any trees cut down"
5. Require a court order to be moved on.
6. Have packs of unregistered dogs who rove around unrestrained around the "campsite"
7. Make threats to the locals which the local police seem to be unwilling to deal with.
8. Cause a mini crime spree in your locality. Including but not limited to, stealing trailers, road signs & cast drain covers.

I could go on ad infinitum/nauseum

If you can't tell the difference you obviously haven't had any dealings with the travelling community. I would say that if someone camping is causing difficulties or offence to the locals then they should be moved.

D.


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Hi,

As a motorhome owner who also loves to wildcamp too I feel I am in a position to comment farily and honestly on this subject.

We recently toured Portugal for 7 weeks in the MH and yes we did wildcamp overnight from time to time but only in locations far away from where people had homes or where it may cause a eyesore and then only for a couple of nights at the very most. We tend to do a mixture of campsites and wildcamping when we are touring around but we are quite fussy about where we wildcamp and prefer to do our own thing in quiet out of the way little hideaways!

I know exactly where you are coming from vilasalvas regarding some of the wildcamping spots that people flock to and some we came across during our visit to the Algarve, I personally could see no joy whatsoever in staying on them; either for ourselves or for the local inhabitants. They did indeed resemble romany camps and everyone seemed all squashed in together like cattle. Not my idea of freedom or fun and so we stayed well away from such locations. I must confess I got quite a suprise when we went down the coast of the Algarve at just how many people did set up camp in the middle of towns and on seafront carparks etc and I can appreciate how it could anger and rile some of the locals.

I think for those amongst us who like to wildcamp (which, as I say, myself and my husband are two such people) then you have to be fair and considerate at all times and ask yourself if you, yourself would like to see hordes of motorhomes parked up near to your residence? If you had bought an apartment or villa with a picteresque view or perhaps taken a drive to a popular beauty spot, would you like to see it spoilt by rows of motorhomes with washing lines full of clothes blowing in the breeze and generators humming away? I know I wouldn't be very happy about that - so I am quite sure others wouldn't like it either.

Wouldn't it be a good idea for both the motorhomers who flock to the Algarve every year and the local communities; if those in charge of tourism were to cash in on this market and perhaps open up Aires like they have in France? This would surely bring in much needed extra revenue to the area and would certainly help to relieve the wildcamping problems?

Sue


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi!



vilasalvas said:


> Can somebody explain to me why some people condone the situation of parking up at the coast, living there for weeks on end, but then go into spasms about Romany travellers arriving in their village for a month or two. What is the difference?


Well, first in my opinion there are two different kinds of wild campers:

The first kind arrives on their own, parks up in an unobtrusive manner, places nothing outside their van, comes for a beer or meal to the local pub/bistro/bodega/whatever, replenishes supplies from local shops (should they still exist), keeps a low profile otherwise, and moves on the other day. And leave nothing behind except tyre tracks.

The second kind tends to flock in large groups, parks up their vans to form a kind of corral, places all kinds of stuff outside their van to mark their "territory", runs gennies all day and night, celebrates noisy BBQ parties every evening, uses a car to buy supplies from a hypermarket at least 20 klicks away, turns the site into an eyesore, and - if not moved on by the authorities - stays until spring. And leaves loads of rubbish, wastes etc. behind.

Now what is the difference between the second kind of wild campers and Romany travellers? Very simple: Romany travellers are far more decent!

Having said that, I very much enjoy wild camping. The first kind, that is.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## kennyboy (Oct 25, 2005)

Totally agree with you Sue. 
We have just come back from Portugal after nearly 8 weeks. We had a brilliant time (even with the rain in January!). we stayed on a campsite in the hills near Monchique for 10 euros a night. That included the MH, 16 amp electricity, the trailer and the car and our 2 dogs.
We saw lots of MHs wild camping in Praia de Rocha, on a parking lot between some flats. In Alvor they were all along the beach and on wasteland. In Manta Rota according to our friends, there were over 100 vans parked by the beach and we saw more along the river on wasteland in Villa Real de Santo Antonio.
Well if it is people's ideal way of camping to save a few euros and feel that they are free so be it ......... but it does look awful when there are more than 2 vans together and yes it does not look much different from a Travellers site.
Ken


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## Patsy (May 1, 2005)

Ken 

Never mind the Gypos. What do you call the site you stayed on in Portugal


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## 38Rover (Nov 9, 2006)

Agreed there is a difference when travelling to stop for a night while on route but many of the car parks near us Torre del Mar Torrox (Spain)etc look more like Campsites than car parks many of the vans are there for weeks at a time between being moved on by the Police.
Who the hell wants to sit in a dusty carpark with no view to save 10e a night,some of the vans I have seen look like they should be on the scrap heap not the road.


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## kennyboy (Oct 25, 2005)

Hi Patsy

The site we stay on is on the Portimeo to Monchique road N266 and the site is called Vale da Carresqueira. It is signposted from the road advertised as an aire. There are only 15 pitches. It is accessible via a very long track (over 1km long) climbing all the way up the hills.
there are breathtaking views and lots of trails for walking. BUT if you like shops and bars like a lot of people who come and then go very quickly the site is not for you! To us is paradise.   
Ken


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## 04HBG (Dec 9, 2007)

I honestly think that if all the campers in Portugal were forced onto campsites then there certainly would not be enough sites available to take them all certainly not along the Algarve.
Some of the main sites are pretty full most of the time already, others that aren't full obviously have some reason as to why they aren't such as the site at Sagres, a mud bath in any rain and way out from the town or the municipal at Monte Gordo where you are guaranteed to sink down to your axles on 95% of the site.

Before Portugal bans wild camping they desperately need to open more sites or aires to attract the tourists. 
At the moment from my own experience based on almost 40 weeks over the past 4 years wild camping seems to be tolerated in certain areas but they do occasionally move you on usually very politely and very apologetically because some local BRIT has complained.

RD


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## babyrhino (Oct 19, 2006)

Having read all of the posts on this thread, it seems that the vast majority think wild camping is acceptable within certain parameters but maybe there is a difference of opinion about where those parameters end.

In 2007 we embarked on our first ever motorhome trip and managed to make it last for 8 months in Europe.

We generally did a mixture of wild camping and sites and pleased ourselves. However, because we were new and a little nervous, we did tend to look for other motorhomes if we we were in a town for the night and there was no site or we had found out that some wild camping was accepted.

Having looked back through my diary, this didn't happen very often but when it did, it was because we had stumbled on a place that was well known in the general "snow bird" fraternity.

A good example was Vila Nova de Milfontes on the west coast of Portugal that we stumbled on by accident and where we parked up for the the night on a super car park overlooking the beach and estuary with about a dozen other vehicles - two brits and then mainly French and German.

Because we were so impressed with the town and location we went back at Christmas this year to explore further - but without our van.

The beach top car park now has a restriction on camping car parking to 3 hours max and the long stayers ( mainly German and French) were now on a hardcored piece of land about 300m further back towards the town but still in a good position.

There is a perfectly good and equally acceptable parking area on the opposite side of the estuary that never gets used very much - maybe because it is not near to the town's facilities.

This was probably a long way round to get to the main point, which is that the answer, as always, lies in a balance between all the conflicting interests.

Suggestion 1 - We should be sensitive to local feelings

Suggestion 2 - Don't all descend on the same place simply because we like to have a social life with the friends we have met up with from our own part of Europe and with like minded individuals.

Suggestion 3 - Even if we do want to do this - think about the fantastic places that are in the same area but are not on someone's view / public amenity. Believe me there are loads of these in most places in Europe - it's very empty.

Suggestion 4 - Be English / Welsh / Scots / Irish - the Europeans don't always know better!

Suggestion 5 - Play it by ear - we stopped in some spectacular spots that we just happened to come across when it was getting time to stop for the night (but we also had a good share of panics when opportunities were running out!)

Suggestion 6 - Use aires or their equivalent in countries where they are available - some of these are in stunning locations.

I would agree that long term encampments (and they exist all over Europe) are going to give us all a bad name but there is so much space out there that wild camping really isn't an issue. 

Follow your instincts and not the herd. 

Happy travelling - and maybe there is the answer - if you are travelling and moving on you are not an issue but if you hang around for a long time you could be!

Interesting that the problems with "Travellers" in this country mostly happen when they stop travelling.

Brian


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Excellent post Brian and I share your sentiments entirely!

Sue


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## vilasalvas (Nov 14, 2006)

*Problems in the Algarve*

I agree with most of babyrhino's post particularly item number 2. I do think that as an individual single motorhome does not pose a huge problem, but it seems if one parks up, immediately others follow. Trying not to be racists, the Dutch and Germans seem to be the worst offenders; they seem to move around in shoals. When I started this post comparing these people to Gypsies was probably off the mark a bit, but to the lay man one bunch of caravans or motorhomes looks very much like another be it Largos or Lutterworth. My other worry about this is that state of the economy, apparently there is a mini boom going on in the Motorhome and Caravan world due to people needed cheaper and more frequent holidays. I would be interested to hear from anybody who has had problems in the Algarve with the campsites being full or not available.


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Hi there vilasalvas,

We were in the Algarve November and December just gone and yes a lot of the campsites were full, especially in the more popular areas. We also noticed a lot of campsites were closed during the winter months and seeing as the winter season seems to be a popular time for motorhome owners to visit the area I would have thought it would have been well worth the campsite owners staying open all year around if possible.

There was a lovely new campsite that had recently opened in Cabanas but we found it was quite quiet on there, which we thought was quite suprising considering as only a short drive away the 2 campsites there were full to brimming! Scruffy campsites they both were too but people seemed to flock there and were all packed in like sardines! Our idea of hell but plenty stayed there for the whole winter and seemed to love the place!

Perhaps, you could enquire why so many campsites are closed and maybe even suggest at a local residents meeting or something that opening up properly managed Aires in and around the Algarve might be a good source of revenue for the area? If wildcamping is posing a problem for everyone - then maybe instead of turning this winter influx away the local businesses could cash in on this opportunity?

Sue


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## 101405 (Oct 15, 2006)

Why are so many campsites closed ? Because its winter, The Algarve is not the true portugal , the real one is a delight to tour from the Atlantic coast to the Tres Monts ,a land of many delights but it also has a proplem with a more properous poulation and an Influx of Second hand Motorhomes from Germany. during the sumer months they are now becoming a problem on the coasts and with the Influx of winter M/H visiters to the Algarve also becoming a problem. we wild camped and camped last summer for 4 months but never with more than 2-3 vans near us ,And told by portugese friends the police are clamping down on them because of the damage done to grass areas /ect. stayed on a site in the far north-est corner of portugal 10 k from Spain in july , 10 people on site, only 3 yrs old ,beautiful lake 200mtrs from site swam every day, cost week ==46€ with elec. went back second time stayed 6 days =40€ yes I do agree Motor homers don't have the god given right to stop wherever they please.


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## krull (Jul 22, 2006)

Gypsies: 

Born into it. 
Live as such all their life and bring their childern up so.
Proud to be romanies/gypsies.

Wild camping:

Not the above.

The word 'gypsie' has more relevence to the sub-culture rather than the domestic arragements. 

Most 'full-timers' are doing so for a few years only, and adapt their previously house based jobs/career/income to fund their new lifestyle. In the back of their mind is the knowledge that when income/health/family dictate, they will be back under bricks and mortar.


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## Rick47 (Apr 10, 2008)

Hello all,

We appreciate the comments made here especially yours Sue. We are very new to the world of Motorhoming and in fact don't even pick up our Motorhome until the end of March. 

Soon after that, we are heading down to Spain and Portugal to travel around these two countries for a couple of months. Can anyone please give us some websites or good reference material as to where we should stay, either in Camping grounds or Free Camping (if there are such places)!!

Any help to a couple of real novices would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,
Rick


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

I agree Silversurfa and personally we too preferred other parts of Portugal far more than the Algarve. To be honest I do not think we would rush back to the Algarve in a hurry as we found it too commercial for us and we would head inland next time. It was whilst we were touring around the more rural parts that we discovered the "real" Portugal and had the most enjoyment and we found some absoloutely magnificent places to visit which were seeped in both history and culture. 

As for wildcamping we too prefer to be either on our own or in a very small group and in places where we are not a problem to anyone or anything. We did find a fabulous place (sorry folks but we've been sworn to secrecy about it's whereabouts) and we will definitely return there on our next visit. Where we were we were really welcomed by the locals and they even allowed us to shower in their village bath house for free plus they even set up special rubbish bins up for us to use, which they very kindly emptied daily. Water we could collect from the village tap and a toilet was made available for us to empty our loos. In return those very few motorhomers that know about this "secret location" and who stay here whenever they are in the area spend money in the village shops etc and eat in the local cafe and restaurant and so everyone is more than happy with the arrangement. It is quite a poor village and so they really welcome the odd wild camper and in a way it is almost like they have made a makeshift Aire for us. However, they do not charge us a penny but if they did, then I believe most of those who stop over would gladly pay to use it as the location is truly idyllic.

Sue


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Sue, your post is the perfect text to use to try and persuade local businesses/councils to set up little aires in the UK.


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Rick47 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> We appreciate the comments made here especially yours Sue. We are very new to the world of Motorhoming and in fact don't even pick up our Motorhome until the end of March.
> 
> ...


Thank you Rick and I am glad my comments have been of some help to you.

Isn't it exciting getting a new motorhome and I remember us getting our very first one 4 years ago and like you, we were new to it all. It was great fun learning and again like you, it wasn't long after getting ours that we were off heading excitedly towards Spain for a few weeks! We enjoyed learning as we went along and we soon picked up all the important things we needed to do and know.

Regarding info on Spain and Portugal I would reccomend you buy a couple of good guide books such as Alan Rogers Spain and Portugal plus it is either The Caravan and Camping Club or the Caravan Club that also have a good Spain and Portugal guide too; which if you are a member you can purchase online through their website. There are a lot of useful websites worth visiting that are helpful too such as www.vicarious-shop.co.uk/category.php?c_id=2 and the Alan Rogers website is useful too www.alanrogers.com/ A good map is essential and I think you can purchase these through Vicarious Books also.

As for wildcamping spots you will come across many in Portugal but it depends on whether you wish to look for you own out of the way spots or park up with hordes of others but whichever you choose, you will definitely find plenty of them. You will soon discover that fellow travellers are always keen to tell you of some of the better ones and so you are unlikely to be hunting around searching for somewhere suitable to pitch for the night. My advice would be to head for the less inhabited locations as these are usually so much nicer and far more peaceful.

I don't know much about wild camping in Spain as when we visited Spain -we tended to stay on campsites. I have heard others say that wildcamping in Spain is not at all safe so I personally would suggest you do a bit of research first to make sure you are not putting yourself or your motorhome at risk. I think to be robbed or attacked would be a dreadful tragedy and would be a terrible start to motorhoming.

Not be long now before you are the proud owners of your new vehicle and I promise you, you are going to love the freedom it allows you and I just know you will enjoy lots of fun and adventures in your new toy. Have you given her or him a name yet? Ours is a "she" and is affectionately known as "Winnie" after my dear late mum LOL!

Sue


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## Rick47 (Apr 10, 2008)

Many thanks Sue for your comments. We are really looking forward to picking up "him" or "her" in a few weeks time. We will certainly follow up on your suggestions of the travel reference information. 
By the way, in your travels around Spain, did you go or consider going across to Morocco in your Motorhome? 
Thanks again for your help. 
Kind regards, 
Rick


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

We are in Spain at the moment and have done a mixture of sites and wild/freecamping. The police are moving most people on who are on the coastal strip at the moment, although it does depend on where you are as to how zealous they are. Mojacar in particular has a new mayor and she is being particulary strict and from what I was told told today by an ex-pat living there has a downer on the English especially, residents and motorhome owners!

People generally congregate in "tribes" because of safety. It is better to park with several vans than on your own. Besides soneone will have been there for a few days and know where the water, waste and toilets are and how the local police deal with us.

There are some people who will abuse any situation whether in Spain, Portugal or wherever. It is those the authorities should deal with not issue blanket bans that affect everyone. Surely it's not beyond the wit of someone to put time limits on a parking place. And legally that's the difference! In Spain a motorhome is the same as a car for parking. If you stop somewhere and don't put out chairs, awnings, gennies or put your van on chocks then you are parking and can use the same places as cars. Anything else is camping and isn't allowed under the law. But that said, you try arguing the point with the police!

Finally, will those people who think there is anywhere in Spain, particularly on the coasts, that can tell me a site that allows you to stay for 10 Euros a night I'll be amazed! And I don't mean for longer than a month. A lot of sites in the popular holiday places won't even allow you to stay for one night at all now. The cheapest site we have found this year is Kiko Park and that was 14 Euros and you couldn't get it for less even without electric. Camper Park Costa Blanca is 12, but that is officially an "aire".


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Hi Rick,

Believe it or not we spent 6 weeks in Morocco the following year after getting our first Motorhome and we had the most amazing experience of our whole lives. Morocco is absolutely fascinating and the people are so friendly and so welcoming. Everywhere we went in the motorhome the Moroccan people waved, smiled and welcomed us and we nicknamed Morocco "The Land of the Smiling Faces!" We spent most of our time touring around parts that were not in touristy areas and it was just like stepping back in time several hundred years to an entirely different era. Donkeys were the main mode of transport and it was incredible to witness some of the sights we stumbled across. Ladies washing clothes in the river and carrying their laundry in baskets upon their heads, mules pulling ploughs in the fields and villages with only a well for their whole water supply. The colours, the smells, the architecture, the history and the whole way of life of the Moroccan people was truly fascinating and it was hard to believe that such a different world existed only a 2 hour flight journey from the UK!

Words just cannot describe the magic and the mystery of Morocco and if it were not for the fact that we now have 2 little dogs, we would have returned there again last year but sadly Morocco is not part of the Pet Passport Travel scheme and so for now any dreams we have of returning are out of the question.

In my opinion if you have the time to travel across to Morocco then it would be a far more rewarding experience than Spain but having said that, there are apparently some breathtaking locations in the unspoiled regions of Spain, so maybe Morocco could be your next adventure?

We travelled around Morocco independently but a lot of people choose to go on an organised group tour. Our experience is that doing it by yourself is far more flexible and meant we could spend as long or as little time as we wanted wherever we went. We are not ones for touring in groups and prefer to find our own way and not be directed by others. However, that's not to say there is anything wrong in going with a group and for those that have participated in such excursions they cannot speak highly enough of them. So if you do fancy going in a party, then I can recommend Desert Detours. This company is an excellent group to go to Morocco with and we have personally met the organiser Ray and he is a fantastic character with an amazing amount of knowledge regarding Morocco and its history. He will ensure his group has a fabulous and wonderful time and if we were to ever go with a group then Desert Detours would definitely be our number 1 choice. Here is a link to his website if you are interested www.desertdetours.com/

You sound like you have plenty of exciting dreams and adventures planned for the future Rick - so I think you are just going to love this motorhoming lark!   

Sue


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