# Efoy verses Self Energy EG-20



## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Hi one and all,

I've read a number of posts refering to the Efoy system but has anyone got experience or knowledge on the Self Energy EG-20 in comparrison to the Efoy system. As I understand it the EG-20 is a small LPG powered generator that provides up to 20 amps to charge your leisure batteries. Whereas the Efoy uses methanol and trickle charges the batteries depending on the size of the Efoy you buy. What about supply of methanol and running costs on either?

Any help in comparing both systems would be greatly appreciated

Pete


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

One is convenient to supply but is noisy.
The other is inconvenient to supply but quiet (and a lot less than 20 amps I thought).
Both are expensive.

Dave


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Presumably the EG-20 is noisy - how noisy? This is the one that they claim gives up to 20 amps but the Efoy delivers between 3 and 5 depending on size (and money you are prepared to pay)


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## Superk (Aug 22, 2005)

I have only have experience of the Self Energy - best thing I've bought for the van. The key thing for me was that it is small and took up no space as it is fitted underneath ( but doesn't compromise ground clearance). If switched on and there is an LPG supply it cuts in automatically if the battery drops to 10.5 volts and charges it back up to 13.5 volts when it cuts out. You can also start it yourself by a simple press of a button on a control panel that is mounted inside the van. I also didn't want solar panels on the roof.
It's great for wild camping - as long as you have gas you have electric whether the sun is shining or its at night. I also have a 2000 watt inverter so if you want to run something with a high load say a hairdryer we just put the inverter and Self Energy on at the same time and the battery is maintained.
As to noise we can hardly hear it when in the van and I've walked around outside when it's on and it's quiet - no more than the smallest Honda generator. Compared to the one on our RV its all but silent.
We've just taken a six month trip with it for the first time and it behaved faultlessly.
Conrad Anderson supplied and fitted and I can recommend them.
I did look at the EFOY but just try calculating the litres of Methanol you will have to carry as you're unlikely to be able to get it abroad and I would have had to tow a small tanker for our trip.
Hope that helps.
Keith


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Thanks Keith,

that's the sort of info I'm looking for. Did you opt for the cooling air pipe to be routed into the van interior (as they suggest in the sales blurb?)


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## Superk (Aug 22, 2005)

All pipes are under the van - an exhaust to exit wherever you want - mine is at the rear, and the other pipe that must be the one you are asking about is routed to warm the diesel tank as I understand it.
Keith.


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## steve149 (Jun 5, 2006)

I have recently had the EG20 installed by Conrad Anderson and so far I am very impressed with the unit and the installers. I had a 700W pure sine wave inverter, LPG tank and Crank-up installed at the same time. The only problem is my leisure battery is not up to the new workload. I suggest a total leisure battery capacity of about 240ah then you can safely use the inverter all night with lights, satelite TV, DVD etc and the next day switch on the EG20 to top up the batteries. If you leave the EG20 on all the time you will hear it over the TV although the next pitch may not. I think the vibration is as intrusive as the noise level but I am pretty fussy about these things. All round 5 out of 5 just budget for some bigger batteries.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

This is what I said, purely from academic specs, 2 years ago, though is consistent with what Keith says about noise.
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-111715.html#111715

My Honda EU10i runs off my Gaslow refillable, and I'm glad it doesn't have a mind of its own when to make noise. That is a heck of a lot cheaper than an EG20, but each to their own.

Dave


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Hi All,

good stuff - just the sort of thing I need. I think we are all agreed that either options are expensive but then MH's aren't cheap either. In my case I'm just looking to get sorted out so that we are fully self contained and if we do decide to swop our MH some time in the future (not for a long while though) hopefully we can take these items with us.

I guess from a noise point of view I need to go and listen to a EG-20 running. The Efoy could be up to £500 cheaper, depending on the model you choose - I'm currently working out usage etc. so I can determine the approximately how much power we need. What about running costs of the Efoy - any views there? What about availability and cost of methanol?

Stev149 - I believe we are ok with batteries as I've already upgraded to a total capacity of 480AH and we use a 2500w inverter

Dave - can you give me an idea of cost to convert the Honda to run on gas as clearly this makes a difference - does it run quieter?


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

We were the first company in the UK to start selling the Smart Fuel Cell (SFC) which is now the Efoy. We gave up as the distribution of the fuel is nigh on non existent. The situation is still no better and as Dave points out the units are very expensive for what you get.

We looked at the gas powered generators but felt, after talking to a number of people and the importers that the vibration and the noise levels would be to great for the majority of people so we left it alone.

I would still recommend a decent battery charging system and additional batteries and/or a small whisper quiet Honda (not a clone) generator for longer stays.


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## fatwallet (May 18, 2006)

hi vennwood we have a efoy on our hymer it seems to be very good you dont notice wether it is on or not. methanol is easy to obtain in europe you can down load a list of suppliers of efoys webb site for all of europe we buy ours in france plenty of outlets. grove products now supply units and methanol through there dealers. we paid approx 19 euros for 10 ltre in the south of france februrary this year. we wild camp quite a lot and have used 10 ltre in 12 months. hope this helps. len


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Hi Len, the fact that you have only used 10ltrs in 12 months means that you don't really need it. On average the unit converts 1.3 litres of fuel to creat 100 Ah so your 10 ltrs have produced 769.00 Ah 

To put this into perspective an average 10amp hook up supply in 24 hours will make available 240 amps. There is a formula for working out how much of the available power is used and we are informed that the diversity factor for campers is about 74% This equates to 177.6 amps. 

So 10 ltrs of methanol would be used every 4.3 days to replace hook up. Not that everyone wants to replace hook up, but it gives a guideline as to expected consumption

As Len says you can down load a list of fuel stockists, but I would suggest that you contact them before making a special journey as being listed is different to having it in stock.


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Sooo..

Having listened to this debate with great interest It seems to me that the good is that both systems will do the job. The bad is a combination of noise/price/availability of methanol and need. By need I mean you have to take into account convenience, style of camping and where you stay. Just taking eddievanbitz point in isolation on the amps used bit then its hard to justify at all. However if, like us, you try and find unexplored places where the nightly fee is FOC then it wouldn't take long to rack up a few hundred £££ in saved camp site fees. I wouldn't mind if I only used 10 ltrs of methanol in 12 months if those 10 ltrs got us out of a jam in the middle of nowhere and I had 12 months piece of mind just knowing that I needn't worry about flat batteries.

So what's the alternative, with the exception of Dave, who has his LPG powered little genny. Is a portable genny the answer - Still could do the FOC aires, wouldn't annoy the neighbours if you are on your own or at least 50 yds away.

I guess I fall more into the convenience camp as I want to be self sufficient but don't want to rely on finding EHU, yet want to be a good neighbour and not irritate them with noise. I need to see both systems in action so until then I guess I'm still undecided......


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Pete,

I haven't Googled for the cheapest, but this is where I got mine:
http://www.edgetechnology.co.uk/lpgas/lpg_con_kits.htm

The Honda EU10i or Yamaha equivalent are quiet on low loads, as they adjust the throttle to suit. But charge your batteries at 50Amps with it and it will be running at its noisiest.

Dave


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Many thanks Dave


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

Hi Pete,

Sorry if I'm rather late in chiming in here but I think that I can offer some useful views on the Efoy (although not a comparison with the EG-20 because I'm not familiar with that).

We sell the Efoys and I have installed one in our own campervan.

There are several crucial issues which you need to weigh up and these are fuel availability, noise, capacity and price.

The fuel availability has indeed changed: not only because the new UK distributors have a large commitment to the Efoys and are determined to work at increasing the number of outlets where you will be able to collect supplies; but also because it *can* now be delivered. We are able to deliver it, albeit with a delivery surcharge; the surcharge is still expensive but no longer outrageously so (I don't think) if you buy a decent quantity at a time.

And for customers who buy their fuel cell from us, we are offering to deliver a certain number of fuel cartridge orders with absolutely no delivery surcharge.

On noise, I consider that the same amount of noise as a small Honda is too much in many situations; I know because we have one and on many occasions we feel inhibited about using it. So now it has been replaced by the Efoy. The Efoy cannot be heard at all outside our vehicle. Inside, it make a little more noise than I had expected but that's probably only because we're in a small campervan and it's only really noticeable if we are standing alongside the wardrobe where it resides. We certainly wouldn't notice it over normal conversation or telly.

On capacity, we have the 1600 model which provides 130AH a day. I know that on average we'd never use that amount and therefore that we'd not use anything like the 1.7 litres per day which would be required to maintain maximum output. This is because our days vary; some days we travel so get a top-up that way, some days we will find ourselves on a hookup anyway, some days we use our Remoska (electric cooker) and some days we don't; and some days we'll get a (fairly) useful input from our small 40w solar panel.

Even if you ran the 1600 at maximum every day, one 10 litre cartridge would last six days so that plus a spare would last for about a fortnight's holiday. But I think that only the very biggest energy spenders would need this every day; and then, I would guess, they are likely to have very big motorhomes - with space to carry more fuel. Apart from carrying what you need, Efoy does publish a list of outlets on the continent though I'd agree that it would be wise to phone ahead to be sure of a supply.

The point of the Efoy is that it can provide a high level of assured power, whenever you need it, without any worries about disturbing yourself or other people. This doesn't mean that you will be using it all the time and therefore using fuel all the time.

We have installed ours very recently so we've yet to gain experience of fuel consumption in a variety of usage patterns. We publish lots of data which is useful if you want to get a feel for your own likely consumption. Bear in mind that the running cost comparisons were made in January this year and the fuel costs are now somewhat higher.

As for the price of the cells - yes they are expensive. So you have to consider whether they are worth the convenience and peace of mind which they provide and whether there is anything else that will match the Efoys in this respect - and especially one that will even fit in a small T4-based campervan. And many of the other products which we buy at great expense for our motorhomes are not much good if we can't always provide power for them.

Sorry about the length of this but I think that some effort needs to be made to counter certain negative perceptions in the UK - although this might have been justified in the past when it did not seem that the fuel supply situation would change. I agree with Efoy owners I have spoken to who say: 'It does what it says on the tin'.

Speaking of power, we're in the midst of the most amazing thunder / lightning storm which has been rolling around here (East Yorkshire) continuously for the last hour; scary but you can tell how persistent I am because I've continued with trying to do this post through three short powercuts.

Regards

David


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Hi Dave, (Campervanstuff)

The thunderstorm is right overhead just now and we also have had power cuts. It must be tracking south westerly then. Such devotion etc.etc

I hear what you say and don't disagree - I guess we are still struggling to justify the cost. It's a lot of dosh for what it is. (both systems) I guess we will continue to sit on the fence a while longer in the vain hope that the prices will fall :lol:


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

Hi Vennwood, we're like long lost twins! I too am searching for the same answer to the same question! 

It has been suggested to me that the "perfect HU free system" is a combination of EFOY and solar panel. Both are quiet, it takes care of the lack of ethanol as the panel will, depending on your usage cover your power needs in summer/sunny climes, leaving the EFOY to take up the slack in winter or Northern Europe/UK. Sadly, the downside is you need a about 3-4 grand to pay for it!

But, I have read in this months, (well June 2008!) Practical Motorhome of something called a "Sterling Charger", that is fitted to your van and takes power from the alternator when the engine is running and instead of trickle charging your leisure batteries bangs upto 50amps an hour into them while you are driving. It claims it can top up your battery from half full to full in just an hours driving. Even a small run will put a good charge back.

We too like to go "off grid" and stay off sites so I think this might be a good compromise as even if you are parked up you have to move after a couple of days even if it's just to top up water or dump waste.

They are from Roadpro and cost £175.00.

Has anyone heard of this bit of kit please?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Yes, I've had one for a year or so. Does what it says on the tin. Not sure about half to full in an hour, though. As with any charging, the current drops towards the end of the charge as the battery voltage comes up, so don't expect 50Amps all the time 

Give my regards to MD Andy when you buy.

Dave


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Hi Annsman,

I guess in some circumstances the Stirling Charger would work ok but not in my case as we have two completely separate leisure circuits and the Stirling won't cope with this. Also I'm not convinced that even 50 amps would suffice for us as we are heavy power users and charging up 600+ amp batteries would take a fair while. We have already fitted an 80 ah battery charger in addition to the original 30am charger.

My ideal set up would be a cheaper version of the Efoy unit or perhaps another solar panel - say the Alden Phenix that's supposed to work better than flat panels in winter. Except for the Alden price of course. Our existing 2 x 130w panels cope fine in summer for the majority of time


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

Vennwood said:


> Hi Dave, (Campervanstuff)
> 
> The thunderstorm is right overhead just now and we also have had power cuts. It must be tracking south westerly then. Such devotion etc.etc


Amid smell of burning ....



> I guess we will continue to sit on the fence a while longer in the vain hope that the prices will fall :lol:


I'm not aware of any approaching competition which would force Efoy to reduce prices - even assuming that they would have scope to do this. If the fuel cells were easy and cheap to build, everyone would be doing it.

And then there's the effect of the current low value of the pound against the Euro which I'd say makes falling prices even less likely.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

There was a fair amount of speculation as to the manufacturer behind the fuel cell survey at Peterborough. If Truma, then they are further behind than I thought. If not, well more prospective competition. But they were talking about dedicated nationwide (& Europe I guess) distribution for the fuel. It's that fuel distribution that still seems flaky to me; a problem the Voller doesn't have (though mass, volume and £ they still do!).

Dave


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

davidcampervanstuff said:


> If the fuel cells were easy and cheap to build, everyone would be doing it.
> 
> And then there's the effect of the current low value of the pound against the Euro which I'd say makes falling prices even less likely.


I figured that would be the case - still we can live in hopes and use a genny in the meantime 

Maybe nobody is doing it because they don't see a volume market at the moment. I realise that MH'ers think we are the only people to consider in this world but we aint so until the Efoy system mk 2 or 3 evolves and appeals to a wider market then I guess we are stuck - chicken and egg....


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## 96783 (Nov 23, 2005)

As always a bit behind the power curve in my input but it may be helpful. We fitted an EFoY on delivery of our van, having been persuaded of its efficacy by the dealer and EFoY themselves at last year's Dusseldorf show. We have just returned from 3 months in Portugal, Spain and France having lived thro' mid twenties temperatures down to snow and ice in the Massif Central. We spent about half that time off hook up and perhaps half in campsites with hook up included in the price (ACSI and Camping Cheques). We left home with 3 and a half containers of methanol and have not yet exhausted the initial container. We have a single 130Ah battery which did everything asked of it, plus a 1000w inverter, and the EFoY was put on any time we were not on hookup for more than one night. Ours is in the battery compartment and we can just hear a slight hum when it clicks in if there is silence in the van (not often the case). It is equally quiet outside the van. We have the 1600 (the biggest) and it always delivered the goods even with temperatures down to or below 0C. We were able to run all the kit we needed all the time we needed it.
We took 3 containers as the supply situation in the Iberian peninsular looked somewhat sparse and the outlets in places we were unlikely to visit but in the end we had no need of them. There doesn't seem to be much point in spending silly money getting to a supply outlet which may be 40 or 50 miles away. Downsides? The supply situation is probably the major one and the failure of EFoY Germany to respond to email queries - now where have we heard that before? Fortunately our dealer, who also changes our wheels (from/to summer/winter) is also a stockist and we have no supply problem.
Like most things in campervans it's a compromise between absolutes and we all make our own judgements on what cost/benefit we get from our particular compromise.


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## carol (May 9, 2005)

Superk said:


> Conrad Anderson supplied and fitted and I can recommend them.
> I did look at the EFOY but just try calculating the litres of Methanol you will have to carry as you're unlikely to be able to get it abroad and I would have had to tow a small tanker for our trip.
> Hope that helps.
> Keith


Keith, the list of suppliers in the EU is huge really, and should not be difficult to obtain. I have a list of them, as I was considering it at Dusseldorf last year (unfortunately due to euro/exchange rate - that money went on buying the mh)...so saving out of my pension if I can.... but at that time Transleisure were the only ones in UK, but that has also changed with their demise, as Grove Products have become the agent and they supply all the dealers..who wish to carry it.... so should be easy to get.

Hymer, were showing at Dusseldorf their top of the range with a small tank fitted, so you could carry far more methanol easily....

Carol


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## carol (May 9, 2005)

DABurleigh said:


> Yes, I've had one for a year or so. Does what it says on the tin. Not sure about half to full in an hour, though. As with any charging, the current drops towards the end of the charge as the battery voltage comes up, so don't expect 50Amps all the time
> 
> Give my regards to MD Andy when you buy.
> 
> Dave


Dave - is there a model number or anything for this please. Am going to Vanbitz on 14th to get things fitted....need to make sure I get what I am expecting.... is this the battery to battery charger?

Carol


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

http://www.roadpro.co.uk/retail/pro...ERLING+50A+12V+BATTERY-BATTERY+CHARGER&id=280


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Hello all, 

I have an Efoy 1200 and get fuel from David at Campervan stuff. It is a great system although I can't offer comparisons against other fuel cells, I can say it really is virtually silent, easy to fit and does not require tanker loads of fuel. I previously used a Honda 10i which was a good generator but noisy enough to irritate us and others in our vicinity. 

I think the Efoy is excellent if your requirement is average say 30 to 40 ah per day. That allows us to watch telly run lights etc. without thinking about hook up battery charging. 

We also use a solar panel which takes care of our needs for 6 to 7 months of the year. In addition we have replaced all the bulbs we can with leds and use the lowest power appliances we can get. We do have an inverter but opt to use it only when we cannot get a 12v appliance. Inverters are not very efficient, 

Regards, Alan.


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## Bagshanty (Jul 24, 2005)

We have been looking at Efoy to complement our solar panel and our Gaslow system. At the NEC we asked the distributor about cost, and he made the very good point that it uses platinum as the catalyst, and that is unlikely to get any cheaper - quite the reverse.

However, having just spent a fortnight in Snowdonia in NVG weather and without any hook up (hence saving about £3 a day), the battery never ever dropped below 12.4 volts, I wonder now whether we need it. Of course, we did drive from site to site, spending 3-4 days on each site.

... just don't get me started on b****y generators. If you need a generator, go to a site with hook up. At an aire in the Camargue last year a French lady nearly got into a fight with a German MH owner because of his generator - and she was big enough to have flattened him with one blow.


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