# Speed Limits



## Steamdrivenandy (Jun 18, 2007)

I don't know if I've been living in a daydream or something but I've just seen a press release from North Yorkshire Police that says my understanding of speed limits for my camper are incorrect. 

The police say (and the Dep't for Transport website agrees) that the UK limits for 'Goods Vehicles up to 7.5 tonnes' are 50mph on single carriageways, 60mph on dual carriageways and 70mph on Motorways. I don't know why but I'd always assumed that the limits for a Tranny like mine were the same as cars ie. 60, 70 and 70 respectively. Apparently the parity with cars is only for 'car derived vans up to 2 tonnes'.

I'm not sure how long these limits have been in place and quite possibly nobody thought to tell me of the variance when I purchased my first and only van 18 months ago or have I missed some law change in the recent past?

Andy :?


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

As far as I know the reduced speed limits have been around for a long time, not that you would think it when you see white van man on a duel carriageway.

The speedlimit for a motorhome is the same as a car to my knowlodge.

Richard...


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## Ginamo (Sep 5, 2006)

Andy,

I think that the limits for cars applies up to 3.05 tonnes unladen.

Hopefully someone with certain knowledge will tell us both for sure.

Alec


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## brandywine (Aug 28, 2007)

They are right but the clue is "Goods Vehicles". Motorhomes should be just that, not HGVs. Look in your V5 and see what its registered as.

Regards.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Steamdrivenandy said:


> The police say (and the Dep't for Transport website agrees) that the UK limits for 'Goods Vehicles up to 7.5 tonnes' are 50mph on single carriageways, 60mph on dual carriageways and 70mph on Motorways. I don't know why but I'd always assumed that the limits for a Tranny like mine were the same as cars ie. 60, 70 and 70 respectively. Apparently the parity with cars is only for 'car derived vans up to 2 tonnes'.


As a "rule of thumb" any van larger than a Vauxhall Astravan will have a gross weight in excess of 2 tonnes and is therefore subject of the reduced "class of vehicle" speed limits. Ford Transit, Mercedes Sprinter, Mercedes Vito, Peugeot Expert, Ford Connect vans, for example, are all restricted vans. Panel vans are all restricted vans.

Single Carriageways: 50mph
Dual Carriageways: 60mph
Motorways: 70mph

Dougie.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Further to the above, here is VOSA's position on motor caravans:-

"Regarding speed limits, provided the motor homes are "motor caravans" then they are subject to pasenger vehicle speed limits, which are 70 mph on a motorway or dual carriageway and 60mph on other roads unless a lower speed limit applies, provided the unladen weight (not MAM) is not over 3050 kg. If the UW is over 3050 kg then the speed limits are 70 mph on a motorway, 60 mph dual carriageway and 50 mph on other roads."

"Provided that motor homes are not constructed to carry more than 8 passengers, or used to carry goods or burden other than those items necessary for the purpose of living in the vehicle, then they are not subject to speed limiter fitment regardless of weight. They are considered as "motor caravans" which are passenger vehicles with as many passenger seats that the vehicle was designed to transport so excluding from the passenger count seats in living or seating areas not intended for use in transport."

Dougie.


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## rickwiggans (May 10, 2006)

This, as far as I know is the latest ifo from VOSA. Are we saying this is no longer the case?

Rick

_Regarding speed limits, provided the motor homes are "motor caravans" then 
they are subject to pasenger vehicle speed limits, which are 70 mph on a 
motorway or dual carriageway and 60mph on other roads unless a lower speed 
limit applies, provided the unladen weight (not MAM) is not over 3050 kg. 
If the UW is over 3050 kg then the speed limits are 70 mph on a 
motorway, 60 mph dual carriageway and 50 mph on other roads_


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

rickwiggans said:


> This, as far as I konw is the latest ifo from VOSA. Are we saying this is no longer the case?


We are not.

Dougie.


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## Steamdrivenandy (Jun 18, 2007)

asprn said:


> rickwiggans said:
> 
> 
> > This, as far as I konw is the latest ifo from VOSA. Are we saying this is no longer the case?
> ...


It came to my notice from a recent NYP Press Release warning van drivers to keep to the limits.

Then the DfT webpage http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/speedmanagement/speedknowyourlimits
makes no mention of any dispensation for motorhomes.

In truth I can see no logical reason for a white van driver in a Transit T280 having a different speed limit to mine in a Transit T280 PVC. If there is a difference it's idiotic as everything is exactly the same except the load that might or might not be being hauled.

Not that I'm after dawdling along at 50 on a dual carriageway mind, I'd go for levelling up rather than down. 

If a Tranny T280 van driver and a Tranny T280 Camper driver were pulled for speeding and the Camper driver were let off, what would an appeal judge make of it?

Andy


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Steamdrivenandy said:


> If a Tranny T280 van driver and a Tranny T280 Camper driver were pulled for speeding and the Camper driver were let off, what would an appeal judge make of it?


That would never happen, as the camper driver would not have been prosecuted in a limit where a van driver was.

My understanding of the legal differentiation is in part down to all-round visibility, i.e. rear windows in one and not in the other.

Dougie.


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## Steamdrivenandy (Jun 18, 2007)

asprn said:


> Steamdrivenandy said:
> 
> 
> > If a Tranny T280 van driver and a Tranny T280 Camper driver were pulled for speeding and the Camper driver were let off, what would an appeal judge make of it?
> ...


What I meant Dougie was if both drivers were pulled over by traffic cops and the van driver prosecuted but the camper driver was let go, what would an appeal judge make of it if the van driver took it that far with a good QC on his case.

I can't see the relevance of a rear window with regard to the speed you can do in a forward direction. In any case there are campers with and without side and/or rear windows and there are vans with the same configurations.

It suggest to me that the authorities believe for some reason that commercial vans are inherently more dangerous then identical campers, which is patently nonsense.

It also smacks of the 'we'll make a speed limit so we can catch people and fine them, rather than because it's dangerous to go above that speed in this particular area'.

Andy

Having said all that I was diverted off my normal route back from Harrogate yesterday due to a fatal accident on the A61. A Jaguar and a white van had collided head on not far from home and the Jaguar driver was killed, the van driver is in a serious conditon. We have several friends with red Jags, we hope it wasn't one of them. The police still haven't named the dead man or given any details of the accident.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Steamdrivenandy said:


> What I meant Dougie was if both drivers were pulled over by traffic cops and the van driver prosecuted but the camper driver was let go, what would an appeal judge make of it if the van driver took it that far with a good QC on his case.


Hi Andy,

It would never get to an appeal on the basis of "I was done and he wasn't". In the case of convicted defendants, appeals apply either to wrongful convictions or excessive sentences. In your scenario, a conviction against the van driver has utterly no bearing on the Police's decision not to prosecute the camper van driver, so any (unlikely) appeal would of course fail. Appeal courts are not there to revise prosecuting decisions made by either the Police or the CPS, and have no power to retrospectively un-prosecute.

Taking it back to the roadside, the van driver could complain to the officers that he felt he was being treated unfairly (I have had exactly this on countless occasions) even although he wasn't, and the officers would have discretion to deal with it as they saw fit (verbal warning, speed seminar, fixed penalty ticket, report for summons) depending on the circumstances. The bottom line though is that actually, the van driver either knew or should have known the speed limit relative to his van, and should not have exceeded it. The camper van driver in your scenario hadn't done anything wrong.

Dougie.


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

I can remember years ago my dad had a Landrover it was a hartop and not a safari model. He got some windows fitted to the side panels and I can remember at the time he said that now he could do 70 on a duel carriage way now if it would go that fast!

As daft as the law is, I have 5 vans to look after as part of my job. Two are Belingos which can do 70 on a duel, One is a Connect this can only do 60, One Combo this can do 70 and one Transit T350 which can only do 60. Most of the drivers are not aware of the law and presume they can all do 70 on a duel ( probally do a lot more ) but you can see the confussion the connect is about the same size as the combo and belingo but heavier so you can only do 60.

For what it is worth I use to drive a white van for a few years and I travelled on the A19 and the A1 a lot of the time and never had any problems travelling above 60 with a Transit.

Richard...


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## sersol (Aug 1, 2005)

Hi Dougie,
How about this,
My Vito fully loaded for me is UNDER 2 tonnes,has side & rear windows.
What is the speed limit on that ?
Gary


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

sersol said:


> My Vito fully loaded for me is UNDER 2 tonnes,has side & rear windows. What is the speed limit on that ?


  Go look it up - it's your licence. 

I'm not a tech expert, but I can use Google. The kerb weight is aparently 1790kg and the GVW is 2770kg, so don't understand how your fully-loaded weight is less than 2000kg.

In any case, it's not a car-derived van - which has a legal definition of being a car-derivative weighing less than 2000kgs - it's a panel van. If yours has side windows, that affects it too. Geez - I'm not the Trump Guide To All Things Legal! Go look it up.

And let me know. 

Dougie.


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## Pollydoodle (Aug 18, 2005)

Barring updates in the rules & regs. Wouldnt it be a good idea if the speed limits were printed on the Registration Document? But I suppose someone is going to tell me there are too many variables
.........it was just an idea :?


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

Pollydoodle said:


> But I suppose someone is going to tell me there are too many variables...


There are too many variables.



Dougie.


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

Gary I would just carry on driving at the normall speeds of todays trafic. I doubt the BIB will be bothred if you are limited to 10mph less tha tha national limit.

Slighly off topic, now that things are getting so tecky can speed cameras teel the diffrance between a car/van/truck etc? Or are they set at the max limit for that bit of road?


Richard...


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## Steamdrivenandy (Jun 18, 2007)

asprn said:


> Pollydoodle said:
> 
> 
> > But I suppose someone is going to tell me there are too many variables...
> ...


You said it!!

Reduce variables for simplicity and to avoid prosecutions of people who plain forget.

All vehicles max.
5mph in reverse outside schools (during daytime in term time only).
30 mph elsewhere in urban areas
60 mph single carriageways
70mph duals and m'ways

That includes wagons which have developed a bit over the last 50 years and can handle the speeds and suddenly the duals and m'ways would free up like a miracle.

Andy


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

asprn said:


> Steamdrivenandy said:
> 
> 
> > The police say (and the Dep't for Transport website agrees) that the UK limits for 'Goods Vehicles up to 7.5 tonnes' are 50mph on single carriageways, 60mph on dual carriageways and 70mph on Motorways. I don't know why but I'd always assumed that the limits for a Tranny like mine were the same as cars ie. 60, 70 and 70 respectively. Apparently the parity with cars is only for 'car derived vans up to 2 tonnes'.
> ...


Dougie I think you are wrong see this from a police source My vehicle is less than 3050Kg unladen so is 60,70,70

 EDIT THIS TABLE WAS INCORRECT AND HAS BEEN REMOVED see several posts pointing this out on page 3 of this thread


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## alunj (Sep 5, 2007)

posting as someone who was done for doing 70 mph in a vw T5 on a dual carridgeway (derestricted) Plod were determined that i could only do 60 as I had a van (car or non car derived) 
After lotsof faffing about abd research it seems that as long as the van has windows in the rear (original from factory not retro fits) and a permanently fitted seat with some very specific construction and use clauses my van was in fact a car and can do 70 !? I challended and won.

S Wales plod have worked out that very few people know what the limits for vans are and are enforing reguarly by hanging about on derestricted duals 

Things start to get very complicated over 2 Tonne. The definition of dual purpose vehicles etc start to come into play.


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## TR5 (Jun 6, 2007)

It becomes even more complex when you bring into play, PSV's, coaches, van derived mini buses and small coaches, etc.

I believe coaches and mini buses have the same motorway limits as cars, regardless of size and weight.

Michael


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

sallytrafic said:


> Dougie I think you are wrong see this from a police source My vehicle is less than 3050Kg unladen so is 60,70,70


Frank,

Unclear what type of vehicle you mean? If a motor caravan, it's as you say.

Dougie.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

I thought you were agreeing with the original poster who said 60 on dual carriageways for his transit based motor caravan

BTW my motor caravan doesn't have rear windows although an option it would have been silly as there was no rear view.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

sallytrafic said:


> I thought you were agreeing with the original poster


I've lost track of who I agree with, and who I don't. :roll: I'll probably just disagree with everyone now.



sallytrafic said:


> BTW my motor caravan doesn't have rear windows


Still a motor caravan though, which as you know is what counts.

Dougie.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

asprn said:


> ..clipped....
> I've lost track of who I agree with, and who I don't. :roll: I'll probably just disagree with everyone now.
> 
> ....
> Dougie.


Is your back still hurting then Dougie


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

sallytrafic said:


> Is your back still hurting then Dougie


Yes, but not so much. In fact, a timely reminder - physio at 10:45! I'm orf.

Dougie.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Vantastic*



alunj said:


> posting as someone who was done for doing 70 mph in a vw T5 on a dual carridgeway (derestricted) Plod were determined that i could only do 60 as I had a van (car or non car derived)
> After lotsof faffing about abd research it seems that as long as the van has windows in the rear (original from factory not retro fits) and a permanently fitted seat with some very specific construction and use clauses my van was in fact a car and can do 70 !? I challended and won.
> 
> S Wales plod have worked out that very few people know what the limits for vans are and are enforing reguarly by hanging about on derestricted duals
> ...


Hey,

Glad you won. I did a bit of research myself into this some time ago. My VW T5 (utter rubbish) has 8 seats. The limits are indeed different for this vehicle. 60 On dual carriageways and 50 on National speed limit single track roads.

May I ask why your were stopped or how you were trapped for speeding?.

Trev.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

*Re: Vantastic*



teemyob said:


> alunj said:
> 
> 
> > posting as someone who was done for doing 70 mph in a vw T5 on a dual carridgeway (derestricted) Plod were determined that i could only do 60 as I had a van (car or non car derived)
> ...


Trev The rule is not *exceeding* 8 seats so unless your unladen weight is greater than 3050kg, then as I see it, it should be 70 on dual carriageways see table on my earlier post.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: Vantastic*



sallytrafic said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> > alunj said:
> ...


Hello,

Not as I read it (somewhere). I will look it up and see where in the grey area it lies.

Trev.


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## Rudderman (May 31, 2005)

*Speeds*

I think all the info has been covered above, but check the Devon & Cornwall Police web Site:

http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/v3/roadsafe/speed/index.htm

It might be worth printing it off and waving it under the nose of any Policeofficer who who thinks you may have been speeding. Remember not to swear at him though. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

*Re: Speeds*



Rudderman said:


> I think all the info has been covered above, but check the Devon & Cornwall Police web Site:
> 
> http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/v3/roadsafe/speed/index.htm
> 
> It might be worth printing it off and waving it under the nose of any Policeofficer who who thinks you may have been speeding. Remember not to swear at him though. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yes thats the table I posted a few posts ago (BTW they gave me permission Ok that was in 2006  )


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## Rudderman (May 31, 2005)

*Speed*

Frank,

I thought that might have been where your info was from.


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## dbh1961 (Apr 13, 2007)

Does anyone know how the unladen weight would be determined?

My VIN plate, and my V5 log book don't mention unladen weight. Only place I can find it, is in the convertor's brochure, and I doubt if that's reliable.

My Gross weight is 3850, and the unladen is around the 3050 mark, depending upon what you include.

If I get stopped, and I am adamant that I'm under 3050 unladen, will they:

a) Believe me
b) Issue a ticket and make me prove the weight
c) Take me to a weighbridge, and make me empty it
d) Have a way of looking up the convertor's brochure

I suspect that they'd still think it was a Fiat Ducato LWB chassis cab, as per the log book

If I empty it, and take it to a weighbridge, I'll be able to get a tciket showing it as under 3050. No-one will know what I've taken out or left in to get to that weight, so is that OK?


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## 99898 (Jul 4, 2006)

This is great info, thanks everybody. But for anybody >3,050kg unladen, just want to point out that the two tables that have been very kindly provided have DIFFERENT speed limits for this vehicle weight, unless I'm mistaken.

The first (speedtable.jpg on Frank's post) shows 60/60/70 and the other (the Cornwall police link on Rudderman's post) shows 50/60/70. Just when you thought it couldn't get any more confusing! I guess its safer to go with the latter but I was happier to see the 60/60/70! 

Didn't like the thought of anybody getting caught out! If I've missed something, please feel free to point it out, I'm no expert.


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## Auchmill (Oct 1, 2007)

Having read this thread and various other articles on the web, including the Highway Code, I'm still not clear about the speed limit on single carriageways for a MH of unladen weight of less than 3050kg.

See this item on UKMotorhomes.net or this one. Confused? Yes.


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## Pyranha (Jul 4, 2006)

*Speed limit anomalies*

For those interested in the absurd and esoteric parts of our speed limits: if you have a 2 wheel drive pickup, it comes under the van limits, but a 4 wheel drive version of the same pickup is a car, so has the higher limits.

Sense? Not likely!

Damien


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## 104477 (May 13, 2007)

This has been interesting reading. 
Now when some speed merchant hollers a complaint about my lower speed I shall smile and refer them to Vosa "speed limits for vehicles" and drive on hoping that they get collared by an un-signposted , unannounced speed camera van, like the ones that keep popping up in Kent. :twisted: :lol: 
Well it makes more sense than reminding them of Agincourt, the uneducatable oiks! :lol:


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## baldlygo (Sep 19, 2006)

The most dangerous roads around here are single carriageway main roads. Restricting the largest vehicles to 50mph means that most other vehicles spend most of their time either overtaking or trying to overtake. I tend to think this makes the roads more dangerous to all users.

Since I am rarely in a rush these days I tend to just sit behind and wait, why dice with death if I don't need too. I do sometimes wonder if I am just being selfish or even contravening a new regulation which says that everyone should try and overtake the vehicle in front if your speed allowance permits.

Paul


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

arg said:


> This is great info, thanks everybody. But for anybody >3,050kg unladen, just want to point out that the two tables that have been very kindly provided have DIFFERENT speed limits for this vehicle weight, unless I'm mistaken.
> 
> The first (speedtable.jpg on Frank's post) shows 60/60/70 and the other (the Cornwall police link on Rudderman's post) shows 50/60/70. Just when you thought it couldn't get any more confusing! I guess its safer to go with the latter but I was happier to see the 60/60/70!
> 
> Didn't like the thought of anybody getting caught out! If I've missed something, please feel free to point it out, I'm no expert.


No Arg the two tables are identical. Auchmill the highway code does not cover motorhomes.

 EDIT I now find arg was right they do differ as I explain later


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## dbh1961 (Apr 13, 2007)

It confused me as well

Sorry Frank, but (as I read it) the one you attached to post 334033 (speedtable.jpg) said 60MPH for motorhomes over 3050Kg, under 12m on a single carriageway.

The Cornwall Police thingy says 50MPH for the same situation

That's how I read them anyway

BTW - 50MPH is right, although (as you said) it is 60 for those under 3050Kg


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

dbh1961 said:


> It confused me as well
> 
> Sorry Frank, but (as I read it) the one you attached to post 334033 (speedtable.jpg) said 60MPH for motorhomes over 3050Kg, under 12m on a single carriageway.
> 
> ...


How very odd that table came from the same source only a few months ago because I couldn't find the one I had saved on my computer at the time.

Anyway I have now found the original (saved as a TIF on my computer in a photo album- where else would it be? :roll: ) and it matches exactly what is currently on the D&C site so the mystery deepens.

I will edit the original post to explain the problem. As far as I know this is the correct one.


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## Auchmill (Oct 1, 2007)

Having found the relevant legislation Schedule 6 I cannot find reference to to Motorhomes of under 3050kg.


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## Doubletread (May 11, 2005)

Hi Auchmill
“Having found the relevant legislation Schedule 6 I cannot find reference to to Motorhomes of under 3050kg. “

No you will not find reference to Motorhomes under 3050 kg if the Schedule does not apply to such vehicles – vehicles not referred to in the Schedule are governed by other provisions that apply to motor vehicles generally and so practically speaking are in the same category for speed limits as private cars.

Les


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Auchmill said:


> Having found the relevant legislation Schedule 6 I cannot find reference to to Motorhomes of under 3050kg.


That is because the schedule refers to Speed Limits for Vehicles of Certain Classes which derives from this implementation The Motor Vehicles (Variation of Speed Limits) Regulations 1984 (S.I. 1984/325) the text of part VI sets out the rules for setting general speed limits

Motorhomes of less than 3050kg just have to obey car or general speed limits.

Sorry just seen has been answered whilst I was checking it all out.


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## Auchmill (Oct 1, 2007)

Thanks to both above for clarifying that. Now, we need to know the unladen weight of our vehicle. It's not listed on the vehicle plate, although the manufacturer's brochure gives it as 3040kg. I suppose you could empty it of water, fuel etc and take it to a weighbridge to be sure. But suppose it's 3060kg when weighed?


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Auchmill said:


> Thanks to both above for clarifying that. Now, we need to know the unladen weight of our vehicle. It's not listed on the vehicle plate, although the manufacturer's brochure gives it as 3040kg. I suppose you could empty it of water, fuel etc and take it to a weighbridge to be sure. But suppose it's 3060kg when weighed?


Now that is a separate can of worms. 

With a panel van at least I can quote the unladen weight because its in the user manual.


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## exmusso (Jun 18, 2006)

*Unladen Weight*



Auchmill said:


> Thanks to both above for clarifying that. Now, we need to know the unladen weight of our vehicle. It's not listed on the vehicle plate, although the manufacturer's brochure gives it as 3040kg. I suppose you could empty it of water, fuel etc and take it to a weighbridge to be sure. But suppose it's 3060kg when weighed?


What about having the spare wheel, jack and tools removed for the weigh. It's now commonplace for the manufacturer not to supply one.

Cheers,
Alan


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