# Yellowing washroom plastic - A survey...



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

(Moderators - could you "Sticky" this for a while to give a chance for a sizeable response, please?)

Why only some plastic in only some washrooms badly discolour is the purpose of this survey - it might throw some light on the causes and cures of this (often serious) problem.

So, assuming your m/home has suffered discolouration ("yellowing") of at least some of the washroom plastic...

1) What colour should the plastic have been? How has it changed colour (lighter/darker/yellowing, etc)?

2) Is it severe (unable to put up with) or mild/moderate?

3) Does it affect all the plastics or only some? Which plastics are affected and (just as important) which aren't? (eg basin, toilet, surround, wall, etc)

4) What year, make and model of m/home was affected?

5) Have you been able to arrest or reverse the discolouration? If so, how did you achieve this.

6) What do you think may have caused the problem?

7) Finally, do you think this has ever affected the resale value of your m/home?

If there is sufficient response to this "survey" I will pass on the findings to SMMT, National Caravan Council, etc., for their comment and maybe some action on future choices of washroom plastic. After all, Thetford seem to have got it right... unless you know different?? 8O


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## mike59 (Jul 29, 2012)

The yellowing is caused by UV light breaking down the pigments (Titanium Dioxide) used in the plastic mix. All Titanium Dioxide pigments suffer this but the rate at which they do depends upon the grade/quality used and the correct recipe mix for the application.


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

That is interesting, Mike. So would a UV filter in the roof light/window stop this happening?


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

Hymer are also connected to Burstner and Dethleffs. I have owned both of these which had used coloured plastics. Could there be a connection with the problem?
Alan


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

Hymer Van 522. 2007.

Shower tray badly yellowed but Thetford toilet still white.


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## Mikemoss (Sep 5, 2005)

Bessacarr E697 1998

All fittings still white and glossy apart from shower tray, which has lost its gloss. Only natural light in washroom is via opaque rooflight (ie no window).


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## bjandlin (Sep 15, 2009)

*yellow plastics*

Hymer 584 2006.
Loo floor/ shower tray yellowed. Shower tray split ( another story but documented in the forum )
Wash basin badly yellowed & plastic degraded, also split badly. (£180 + vat+ delivery from Germany quoted !!!!!)
Toilet OK, still nice & white.
Other plastics in kitchen area, around all windows, cab & Bed areas included, yellowed to varying extents.
Corner mouldings of window blind surrounds discoloured less than uprights & top & bottom framework.
Really spoils an otherwise good van. 
Barrie.


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## mike59 (Jul 29, 2012)

Well the old brain cells are degrading a little, but as i remember different microscopic coatings such as aluminium and zirconium were applied to pigment particles depending on the end use and properties required.
I think pigments destined for plastics were a higher technical challenge due to the resins used for the plastic having a tendency to go yellow themselves.
Titanium Dioxide is expensive and certainly as far as the paint manufacture is concerned it is normal to bulk it out with fillers such as chalk. Obviously this can only be taken so far before quality suffers. Its the old story of quality vs cost.
I,ve added a link to a datasheet from a pigment manufacturer for a grade used in plastics. A bit technical but you may gleen some information from it.

http://www.g-ipd.com/pdf/R-TC30_UK.pdf


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*yellow*

Shower tray nicotine yellow, thetford, still thetford white.

Shower tray almost always kept in the dark!

TM


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Thanks for all your contributions, particularly those regarding pigments, etc., used in the plastics industry.

What I find most curious is that Thetford seem to have nailed the problem, while a huge company like the Hymer Group, presumably concerned with "good quality", apparently suffer more than most with this problem. Has someone at Hymer "taken their eye off the ball"? Or because it's a problem normally associated with ageing, don't they care once it's out of guarantee?

Please keep the information coming in - the more comments I have, particularly regarding the manufacturer of the m/home, the more convincing the representation I can make.


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Hymer 544 (2007) no problem with sink / shower walls, floor is off white, but no real problem.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Hymer go out to a supplier for the panels and fittings, they won't make that stuff themselves, only the big body panels, so their suppliers are the ones that need a kick up the bum, not Hymer.

It is their responsibility as supplier of the vehicle, but they probably couldn't see that many years down the line.

We've got a shower/vanity unit out of a Swift which is 10+ years old and it hasn't changed colour from its original light pink at all. I think these were made by a plastics company in the Hull area that has shut down, but the finish is fine.

Thetford C2 is good also, much as others have said, but they are a huge company and would control/manufacture most of those parts themselves.

Peter


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Here's an interesting excerpt from *mike59*'s brochure...

*"Some white PVCu formulations based on stabilisation systems containing lead when exposed vertically and facing North in mild climates have shown premature discolouration. There is considerable evidence that this phenomenon is a complex and subtle function of many parameters such as detailed formulation, extrusion conditions and prevailing conditions at end use. This is why Huntsman Pigments does not recommend any of its titanium dioxide pigments for use in lead stabilised white weatherable rigid PVC formulations."*

I find this interesting because of the "North facing/mild climate" comment. I'd assumed strong sunlight to be a major factor but this appears to contradict this.

But what is Thetford doing right that Hymer (_et al_) are buggering-up?

Hmmm...


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

While I think you're right, Peter, that Hymer outsource their plastics, I disagree that the problem is not in their control. They only have to demand a certain standard from their supplier and (assuming the supplier is able) it will be done. It's clear that this problem has gone on for so long that Hymer (and others) have turned their back on it.

Coloured plastic (as in your Swift and in my various Auto-Sleepers) seem not to be affected, as does the white plastic of Thetford's toilet bowls/lids (but their housing with the switch, curiously, does!).

But my current Hymer has a *big* problem, as does the Thetford housing. I'm midway through changing the basin and back panel - _midway_ because Hymer sent the wrong basin, only discovered when all was stripped out! Grrr...!


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Hi Barry:

I think I am suggesting that problems with older vans is outside their view, but certainly continuing problems with new vehicles would suggest that they don't have their eye on the problem, or feedback from customers.

The other point worth making is that glass windows will block Ultra-Violet light, while plastic windows do not.

Peter


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## cocoa (Feb 28, 2008)

We have a 2008 Hymer Van and have had the reverse problem with yellowing. 
The only yellow patches we have had are when something, such as a damp flannel, has been left on the floor or similar, then a yellow patch appears underneath it. After a few days of light reaching the yellow patch it has faded and returned to white!
There is a large opaque roof light in the bathroom.


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## Bill_H (Feb 18, 2011)

cocoa said:


> We have a 2008 Hymer Van and have had the reverse problem with yellowing.
> The only yellow patches we have had are when something, such as a damp flannel, has been left on the floor or similar, then a yellow patch appears underneath it. After a few days of light reaching the yellow patch it has faded and returned to white!
> There is a large opaque roof light in the bathroom.


Is that not likely to be the moisture from the flannel seeping into the gel coat (top layer) of the plastic? After the flannel being removed for a few days the moisture evaporates form the plastic and the normal colour returns.


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Thank you, Peter. I didn't realise that glass would block Uv light. A glass panel over the rooflight would sort that then?


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Bazbro said:


> Thank you, Peter. I didn't realise that glass would block Uv light. A glass panel over the rooflight would sort that then?


Yes, it will block UV rays very well.

A lot of the film and TV lights we used to work with had either arcs or HMI discharge lighting. In both cases it was mandatory to operate them only with glass lenses in place, and also the quartz bulb lights had to have the fronts in place as well, Quartz is not a UV blocker.

There's a good article on Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet

Which goes into the degradation of materials through UV radiation which is relevant to the OP.

Also, glass is additional in its effect, 3mm will block X amount of UV, 6mm will block 2X of UV.

Peter


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## forterotwins (Feb 25, 2008)

Ours is a Dethleffs Fortero 2006 model. The washroom cupboard on the outside is a dull yellow, but is still white on the inside. The wash basin is still white but this was replaced under warranty. The shower tray is badly marked and cracked in all four corners, The disclouration is annoying but not unbearable and hopefully will not affect the re-sale value.
On the outside, the electric hook up cover and the fridge external vent cover have also yellowed.
Thank you


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## Easyriders (May 16, 2011)

All the plastic in our bathroom, apart from the thetford loo, is pale grey, so no yellowing. This seems sensible - why do manufacturers use white if it is prone to yellowing?

Mind you, the loo hasn't yellowed either, and we have a big opaque window in the bathroom.


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

A link kindly provided by *Kev_n_Liz* brought up this company 
http://www.tubbyuk.com/useful_products.htm
who produce repair kits for acrylic as well as enamelled, porcelain and ceramic surfaces. I have no connection with this company.

I contacted them with our specific "motorhome" problem and this is their reply...

_Thank you for your email. I have read through the forum and the reason for
the discolouring is defiantly(sic) due to UV light. This is a problem afflicting
all acrylic, plastic, stone resin etc types of sanity ware.

Our materials are designed to be applied to acrylic, plastic, stone resin
enamel, porcelain and ceramic surfaces.

Furthermore our materials have been specifically designed to be UV
resistant, so if resurfaced with Tubby you should not have this problem
again.

Tubby is available in 56 colours and as the manufacturers we work with
clients to establish your needs and find the best solution to your specific
project.

Our kits come with everything you need to do the job including a full set of
step by step instructions. We also have a technical help line which you can
call during the project for help.

I hope this helps. Please feel free to contact me should you have any
further questions. Please also feel free to pass my email address and phone
number onto any of your mates from the motor home fraternity who might have
questions.

Regards

Grant Helm
www.tubbyuk.com
www.mendabath.co.uk
0208 3370699_

This may be the answer for some of our members whose washrooms are just too badly discoloured to live with.

I have just discovered that Hymer no longer stock the washbasin as fitted in our Exsis so guess what...? Tubby here we come!

Meanwhile I shall continue to build a bank of evidence, and when there's sufficient, to present to the relevant parties.


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## pippin (Nov 15, 2007)

"the reason for the discolouring is *defiantly* due to UV light"

It certainly doesn't *defy* the UV light! :lol:


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

It definitely doesn't!


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## 5bells (Feb 4, 2009)

2007 burstner, silver grey sink light grey shower.

No yellowing to date.

Is it only the white ones going yellow?


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

I think you might be right, *5bells*. The coloured pigments don't seem to discolour the way white does.


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## vicdicdoc (May 14, 2005)

1997 Hymer(E-510), small opaque roof vent - no discolouration of white sink or shower tray ( walls are also white plastic lined again no discolouration, I wonder if cost over quality in recent years by manufacturers has lead to this resulting 'yellowing' problem ?


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## Yaxley (Jul 25, 2008)

Hobby 750FML 2006
No discolouration of tray, sink or toilet. All white. 
No Rooflight. Window has opaque glass.
Ian


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

You might be right, *vicdicdoc*, but I'm not sure. It may just be that "someone" didn't appreciate the impact that a certain plastics chemical formula would have, or it really was a pure cost-saving exercise, etc.

In the case of Hymer not likely, though they're not nearly as good quality as they once were - 1996 seems to be a watershed year for them as far as sheer "quality" is concerned. I think Hymer still want a good product. Some of their washroom plastics, though, are well below the standard of the majority of manufacturers, and that's saying something!

Thank you to everyone who is contributing to this Survey.

I am in contact with a fibreglass manufacturer who can make pattern replacement washroom items. For those of us with discontinued, etc., items, this could be a lifesaver!!! Watch this space...


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## Martinlay (Jul 16, 2008)

2007 HYMER VAN 522

I first noticed yellowing of the shower tray (only) when my van was about a year old. I have tried many times cleaning it with both a bathroom cleaner containing bleach and a general purpose 'Mr Muscle' cleaner but to no avail. For some time now I have used a small mat in the shower tray to hide the unsightly yellowing. 

It's interesting to see that at least 2 other owners of the same model m/h (see above Pippin's post on 26/11 and Cocoa's on 27/11) have suffered exactly the same problem as myself. Following Cocoa's advice, I shall now remove the mat so exposing the shower tray to UV light and see what happens.. Not holding my breath though!


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

A brief update...

We're having a fibreglass replica basin made which will hopefully be of an acceptable standard. It won't suffer discolouration, though, that's for sure (I hope!).

I will post details later, on receipt of the basin, probably after Christmas now.

Meanwhile, please let me know of your 'yellowing' washrooms... I really want to highlight this problem as widely as possible and in particular with the appropriate manufacturers. Name'n'Shame...!

Thanks.


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Right... Here goes for the latest update...

I contacted a guy (initially via E-Bay where he advertises his fibreglass replica products) and asked him if he could help me with my no-longer-available Hymer Exsis washbasin.

He couldn't have been more helpful. He took a mould from my existing one, noted the special instructions I gave him, and then he made an identical copy, even matching the colour to that of existing plastic in the washroom.

His prices seem to be a fraction of the genuine plastic article, yet his fibreglass ones are better and stronger, albeit a tiny bit heavier.

And what a nice guy too - really helpful and (wait for it!) actually willing to give good service with a good product! He has saved our bacon with his product and we now have a gleaming new basin for nearly half the price Hymer would have charged IF they had the item to sell!

If you have any kind of plastic item that you cannot now get replaced, this is the chap for you...
Contact him on [email protected]
He says * "My small business... reproduces obsolete plastic mouldings ie: washbasins, shower trays, wheel spats, corner light mouldings (rear), A frames, and a lot more, in fact anything that is possible for Caravans and Motorhomes and other things.

I have a couple of different shower trays and wash basins for Hymers and also a skylight inner moulding and am at present rebuilding an air conditioning case that fits on the roof of an old Hymer."*

As a customer with one of his superb items, I can highly recommend him.


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## iandsm (May 18, 2007)

*plastic*

2008 Rapido 9048 everything which should be white still is.


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## kimbo4x4 (Jun 29, 2008)

1999 Hymer E510

No yellowing of shower or basin.
Thetford toilet no yellowing
Shower wall panels no yellowing.
Opaque roof light

Drivers door is yellowing 
Habitation door is discoloured.

Did they use different materials on the E series?


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## dalspa (Jul 1, 2008)

Hymer B654 (2007).
Handbasin, directly beneath opaque twin skinned rooflight, generally yellowed but with a round whiter patch beneath a soap dispenser. No discolouration to walls, shower tray or Thetford toilet.


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## swallow (Dec 19, 2007)

*timberland*

Our timberland is not yet 3 yrs old and noticed yellowing on top of fold up basin, all other fittings fine. Will contact them to see if covered under warranty as would like to sell van.


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## neilanddot (Apr 4, 2008)

In response to Easyriders comment on the grey used by Thetford. Euramobil seem to be aware of the problem and the entire bathroom is in blue and really looks amazing and smart, Why don't other makes of van do the same, given the fact that yellowing is a well known process with age and exposure to UV?
Neil


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

neilanddot - Exactly! I'm certain the entire industry is aware of the problem and I cannot believe that they still use this formulation/colour plastic, particularly for the high end/expensive motorhomes.

For a time I was pretty sure it was just Hymer that had the problem but from this survey, it seems that it's almost universal. What's curious is that not every washroom using this plastic is affected.

Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to reply.

And don't forget - it's probably cheaper to have a new quality fibreglass item made by Derek Justice (as above) than buy a replacement part from the manufacturer! Unbelievable!! 8O


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## cocoa (Feb 28, 2008)

Just had a look in a 2008 Hymer Exsis at the Exeter show and the bathroom 'white' plastics were a deep orange colour! Guess we are lucky with our Hymer van that is still white.


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