# Poverty my arse.



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

We now learn half the kids in UK are in 'poverty. But half UK households PAY for TV. 
This poverty label seems a bit odd to me. They chose to pay for things they don't really NEED and then visit food banks. 
OK I don't actually have figures other than media headlines.

Ray.


----------



## Devonboy (Nov 19, 2009)

The ONS figures for the average wage in 2018 quotes a figure of £28400. "Absolute Poverty" is quoted as anyone with an income of 60% or less of the average wage. This equates to £17,040 pa, £1420 pcm, £355 pw or an hourly rate of £8.88.

However the government also set the National Living Wage at £8.21 per hour so any household with dad on NLW as the only income will automatically be in absolute poverty.

The tax threshold is £12500 for a married man so again the family in absolute poverty still has to pay around £900 pa tax.

Funny old world.


----------



## iandsm (May 18, 2007)

raynipper said:


> We now learn half the kids in UK are in 'poverty. But half UK households PAY for TV.
> This poverty label seems a bit odd to me. They chose to pay for things they don't really NEED and then visit food banks.
> OK I don't actually have figures other than media headlines.
> 
> Ray.


i have little doubt that there are people who genuinely need food banks and I have little doubt that there will be some who don't really need them but still visit them and take free food just because its free.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

The figures above put all people on state pensions in poverty then?

Ray.


----------



## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

raynipper said:


> The figures above put all people on state pensions in poverty then?
> 
> Ray.


Yup.


----------



## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

raynipper said:


> The figures above put all people on state pensions in poverty then?
> 
> Ray.


Many have to decide to either eat or stay warm after paying their hosing costs, so yes.

Terry


----------



## trek (May 1, 2005)

I often come across people claiming poverty covered in Tattoos and piercings !


They are happy to pay for these


----------



## Devonboy (Nov 19, 2009)

raynipper said:


> The figures above put all people on state pensions in poverty then?
> 
> Ray.


Correct current rate of £168.60 pw equals £8767.20 pa only half the income to be considered as living in poverty, so even if a married couple both receive the maximum they still only have an income of £17534.40 pa so still in "absolute poverty".

Makes you think eh..........................


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

And not everyone gets the full pension. Myself and a few other ex-pats don't and we can't claim Pension Credits.
But my main point was it's all relative and with the news that more 'poor' people are paying for streaming services when the free alternative is available.

Ray.


----------



## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

It is all about "entitlement". Chris and I often comment on how a whole generation has grown up thinking they are entitled to own a house without giving up on things like pay tv, holidays, nice cars, takeaways, acrylic nails, tatoos, designer clothes, date nights every week and new gadgets.
When they are interviewed on tv they don't even bother to hide all this stuff which proves that they don't realise that some of us see it as "non essential".


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Devonboy said:


> Correct current rate of £168.60 pw equals £8767.20 pa only half the income to be considered as living in poverty, so even if a married couple both receive the maximum they still only have an income of £17534.40 pa so still in "absolute poverty".
> 
> Makes you think eh..........................


I don't get 168.60 a week even with my little extra civil service pension, who do I complain to?:frown2:


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Absolutely Pat. Our generation grew up with make do and mend (well some did) and now as you say it's all expected to be available without effort.
I'm not saying the younger generation do not appreciate things but it's hardly the same. 
I keep remembering a TV prog where they followed four people who used food banks. Probably a channel 4 or 5 programme. All four had iPhones and in the end admitted they didn't actually need the hand outs but just went along in the system. One was even working as a delivery driver on a good wage.

We are often told and shown again on TV about the abuse of the benefits system and not only by migrants. Subletting council and subsidised housing. Our society seems to have degenerated to Mad Max levels. Just seen about another 89 year old woman raped and robbed and it hardly makes the news. Knifings happening all the time in London but again hardly news any more.

Ray.


----------



## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

And then, when you watch 24 hours in A&E, they are all sitting in the waiting room with cut fingers or calling an ambulance because the toddler has tummy ache. Again that sense of entitlement. Last night, one rang A&E to ask what the "current waiting times" were! They decided not to bother to attend when told the information could not be given out. A friend, who owns a farm, always went to the doctor for cough medicine for her children rather than pay for it at the chemist!


----------



## Drew (May 30, 2005)

*"And not everyone gets the full pension. Myself and a few other ex-pats don't and we can't claim Pension Credits."

"I don't get 168.60 a week even with my little extra civil service pension, who do I complain to?"
*

You ex pats decided for one reason or another to move out of the UK for pastures greener. You were also aware that your pensions would be frozen with no increases. It was your decision to sell up and move out, so please don't complain and give us sob sob stories.


----------



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Drew said:


> *"And not everyone gets the full pension. Myself and a few other ex-pats don't and we can't claim Pension Credits."
> 
> "I don't get 168.60 a week even with my little extra civil service pension, who do I complain to?"
> *
> ...


 State pensions are not frozen for those pensioners living in EU countries and some other countries having recipocal arrangements, but there are other countries, e.g. Australia, where they are frozen.


----------



## Drew (May 30, 2005)

nicholsong said:


> State pensions are not frozen for those pensioners living in EU countries and some other countries having recipocal arrangements, but there are other countries, e.g. Australia, where they are frozen.


If that is the case, why do they keep moaning?


----------



## Devonboy (Nov 19, 2009)

raynipper said:


> And not everyone gets the full pension. Myself and a few other ex-pats don't and we can't claim Pension Credits.
> But my main point was it's all relative and with the news that more 'poor' people are paying for streaming services when the free alternative is available.
> 
> Ray.


Very true Ray, I think the term "essentials" has been re defined and now includes; latest iphone on contract for all family members; full Sky package; tv the size of my living room & takeaway meals.

I guess that is progress.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Sadly Dave we are called moaners and whingers because we can see the flaws and remember how it used to be. Every now and again someone moves the goalposts.

Ray.


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

There are plenty of decent people out there who have encountered difficulty through no fault of their own and who are being treated like sh1t by this Tory government. Perhaps it's not as easy as you think to have things handed to you.

My own brother in law who is 54 had an accident last spring. It was touch and go for a while whether his foot could be saved and it took a year for him to recover. He'd never claimed any benefit before and had worked and paid taxes since the age of 17. He got next to nothing after a very long delay. He lives along and had little by way of savings. For all the benefits people cared he could starve. In lieu of money they offered him vouchers for a food bank.

Despite not being able to walk or stand up they felt he should be able to get an office job sitting down, that's despite the fact that he's worked outdoors on sites all his life and knows nothing about office work. He didn't think he was likely to be offered an office job, but he couldn't get there even if he was https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/2624-almost-two-out-of-three-pip-claims-refused

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/12/disabled-people-benefits-appeal

For those who aren't ill or disabled Universal Credit has been a disaster too: https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/problems-universal-credit

https://www.trusselltrust.org/what-we-do/research-advocacy/universal-credit-and-foodbank-use/

I think there are many genuine examples of poverty. That ought to be unacceptable in any modern country.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yea Alan, it's not one size fits all. The Social Security is there for the 'needy' and possibly works most of the time. But as your brother found their requirements or points aren't always fair and the reverse can be the case.

Another anomaly ………………………

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...r-felt-marriage-important-day-Paolo-died.html

Ray.


----------



## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

As I found out, when my mother tried to claim benefits, it is knowing how to work the system. She was registered blind but had peripheral sight and managed reasonably well. She decided, however, that she wanted to claim the full care package benefit. She was unsuccessful.
A while later she was visited by charity/social worker who advised her how to claim. When answering the question "can you manage to dress yourself?" my mother had previously replied "yes" as that was the truthful answer. She was advised, by the charity worker, to try again but answer "no" to that question because she may be unable to match the various items of clothing when getting dressed. This was just one example of "working the system".


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes Pat. It's putting the square peg in the square hole.
When we claimed on the FSCS after losing our £750,000 of savings £48,500 each. But although I had lost another £90k in another name the FSCS said it wouldn't qualify as they knew it was me. Their own website said each name could claim but I had to argue for my wife to get her £48,500. I obviously didn't know how to press this extra loss.

Ray.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Drew said:


> *"And not everyone gets the full pension. Myself and a few other ex-pats don't and we can't claim Pension Credits."
> 
> "I don't get 168.60 a week even with my little extra civil service pension, who do I complain to?"
> *
> ...


I wish you would get your facts right Drew and shut up about people who chose to live in another country, mind someone doesn't soon tell you to go back to Scotland.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Don't bite with Drew Jan. I have lost count of the times he has decided to have a pop at me over one thing or another. 

Ray.


----------



## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

raynipper said:


> Yes Pat. It's putting the square peg in the square hole.
> When we claimed on the FSCS after losing our £750,000 of savings £48,500 each. But although I had lost another £90k in another name the FSCS said it wouldn't qualify as they knew it was me. Their own website said each name could claim but I had to argue for my wife to get her £48,500. I obviously didn't know how to press this extra loss.
> 
> Ray.


All about knowing how to work the system.


----------



## Drew (May 30, 2005)

JanHank said:


> I wish you would get your facts right Drew and shut up about people who chose to live in another country, mind someone doesn't soon tell you to go back to Scotland.


A typical childish remark, and please don't ask me to "shut up" on a subject in a thread, we are all entitled to our opinions

On the subject of ex pats, I was one myself many years ago and decided it wasn't for me.

Have you never made a mistake Jan? always got your facts right? Not all of us are a "Paragon of virtue'.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Probably shouldn’t comment but knowing me I will

Why on earth would anyone equate poverty with owning a TV ?

Why would we imagine that kids should be de denied the pleasure and entertainment of Tv

Or adults for that matter

We need to eat to live , fact, food banks 

But we need much much more than food to have a life 

I’m sorry if those who chose to live abroad struggle

Boy did we struggle when we lived in Israel

But that was our choice , if we had stayed in England things would have been easier

But not as rich in memories and experience

Sandra


----------



## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

raynipper said:


> Yes Pat. It's putting the square peg in the square hole.
> When we claimed on the FSCS after losing our £750,000 of savings £48,500 each. But although I had lost another £90k in another name the FSCS said it wouldn't qualify as they knew it was me. Their own website said each name could claim but I had to argue for my wife to get her £48,500. I obviously didn't know how to press this extra loss.
> 
> Ray.


Judging by those amounts of money you weren't exactly poor were you.
I wouldn't know what £4K was even it was holding my hand and trying to snuggldown in my pocket!


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Spacerunner said:


> Judging by those amounts of money you weren't exactly poor were you.
> I wouldn't know what £4K was even it was holding my hand and trying to snuggldown in my pocket!


Yes, we were very comfortably off after 25 years of working 24/7 and grabbing the opportunities offered. Retired at 41 with 5 houses in London. 
But sadly it all changed and now make do and mend is the norm.

Ray.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Well now I do 

Once I didn’t 

I only knew that if we had the 6 kids dinner money Monday morning we were rich 

And Sunday was our day off, once he had earned the dinner money 

I waited up till 2,3,4 in the morning depending on his takings 

And he would return with Kentucky chicken and a bottle of wine 

And the kids had a week of school dinners 

But 55 years later it just wove a rich tapestry of life , anxiety forgotten

Would we have made 55 years without the struggles?

I hope so, but who really knows 

Sandra


----------



## Kaytutt (Feb 5, 2013)

Poverty isn't just about finances and posessions, those with tattoos or piercings may have had them done during a time in their life when they could afford it, big TV's probably cost less than a tiny B&W cost in the 60's. Kids brought up in poverty don't just go without material things, they have poverty of hope and opportunity, how many kids from poor backgrounds get the chance to go to the best universities? 



I'm not for one minute saying that some don't play the system but many are genuinely struggling, it's so easy to tar all with the same brush while having a pop at them from your swanky motorhomes/nice houses/apartments in the sun


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I'm not knocking Kay. I'm trying to understand the correlation between so called poverty and paying for streaming TV when the free alternative is available.... well free.?
Along with similar animalities.

Ray.


----------



## Kaytutt (Feb 5, 2013)

Pay TV is quite often bundled with internet provision, kids can't do homework without internet these days, schools expect them to be able to log in to internet portals


Netlfix is £9 a month or £2 a week. Why shouldn't any family be able to access streaming TV for the price of a loaf of bread? It's hardly extravagent is it and probably the only entertainment available to them, have you seen the price of a cinema ticket these days?


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Kaytutt said:


> Pay TV is quite often bundled with internet provision, kids can't do homework without internet these days, schools expect them to be able to log in to internet portals
> 
> Netlfix is £9 a month or £2 a week. Why shouldn't any family be able to access streaming TV for the price of a loaf of bread? It's hardly extravagent is it and probably the only entertainment available to them, have you seen the price of a cinema ticket these days?


I accept the internet is a perceived necessity like a smart phone. We just can't do without either now can we?.
But pay TV is not in that category no matter what it costs. I love the comment 'ONLY'. All these ONLY's add up surprise surprise. Like only another pint or bet. When your broke and in 'poverty' you learn to economise and not squander.

Soon as more and more gullible people subscribe to pay TV the rest of us will have to join the lemmings like Credit reference agencies. Then try and get out of it.

Ray.


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

If you have grand children Ray you'll know that the internet is an essential for school work. It's the reference tool these days. Did you ever have to go traipsing to a library in order to do homeworks or research?

These days a child without internet access, or a huge library next door will not be able to keep up with their contemporaries. Knowing how to find stuff out is the main function of education.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes Alan, I have just said that. But pay TV.?

Ray.


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

As Kay says these services are often bundled.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Are they free?

Ray.


----------



## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

I can understand this mindset for those that have come through terrible times like WW2, but we're not at war now and time has moved on with different needs and priorities.

I still recall a neighbour many years ago saying to me as being unemployed for two years, "it's alright for you being on the dole", well no it fecking wasn't !

Best for all to stop and think and put themselves in the other persons position before criticising is my outlook on life.

Terry


----------



## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

I presume that the liberal do-gooders in the EU who decided that the definition of poverty is those with less than 60% of average income had never visited any 3rd world countries. If they had then they should be ashamed of themselves for effectively insulting those who are genuinely impoverished.


----------



## greygit (Apr 15, 2007)

peribro said:


> I presume that the liberal do-gooders in the EU who decided that the definition of poverty is those with less than 60% of average income had never visited any 3rd world countries. If they had then they should be ashamed of themselves for effectively insulting those who are genuinely impoverished.


They say you get more rightwing as you get older, will you be getting a card from the Queen soon?:wink2:


----------



## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

peribro said:


> I presume that the liberal do-gooders in the EU who decided that the definition of poverty is those with less than 60% of average income had never visited any 3rd world countries. If they had then they should be ashamed of themselves for effectively insulting those who are genuinely impoverished.


Says the man with two homes, luxury cars and travels the world that appears to have done quite well living under those "liberal do-gooders in the EU." >

Terry


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

It's all relative Terry.

Ray.


----------



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Has anyone being watching the TV Series "Broke"? It was about people who are in work but just not managing. There were two blokes (father and son) working zero hour contract jobs and living in tents on a beach or in the woods. The Tories count these two in their "glorious we have never had it so good" employment figures as being employed. Dont get me wrong, Im not a lefty, Ive just seen the light and realised what a bunch of nasty self serving [email protected] that are moving ever further to the right (thanks to Brexit) we have running this country. There was a senior intensive care nurse featured last night. She earned just £28k a year. Now to some thats probably a reasonable wage but how he hell can someone doing that job only be worth £28k a year FFS!?

One guy in Wales was working a 100 hours per week over four or five jobs and still struggling. Now maybe there is some truth in some cases that people live beyond their means, its not something Ive ever subscribed to but I just find this whole attitude from wealthy people on here that everyone is a waster and we always managed in the good old days etc a bit callous and franlky depressing. This country is fecking miserable. Life is sh1t for a hell of a lot of people IMO and sadly its about to get a lot worse.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes I watched about 20 mins of it Barry. But didn't feel like continuing as I felt it a poor small selection. One extreme to another and no mention of the millions of pensioners.

Ray.


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

If the programme was designed to show the plight of people it would obviously feature those who are struggling most. 

I'm sure that would make for uncomfortable watching for any fair minded person but the point couldn't be well made by featuring those who are not well paid but are somehow managing to get by in a little more comfort. In any case we would have no way of knowing how much help those who seem to manage better have from friends and family. I think that any decent friends or family members helping would never want it discussed so as to save the recipient embarrassment, for that reason help would be given subtly.

The real measure is just how many people are really struggling and I believe that a concerted effort is made to make that difficult to discover.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Relative poverty is getting closer for us ………. 1 GBP = 1.07819 EUR
And no Drew, I'm not looking for sympathy. 

Ray.


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Heading for parity. I've saying it for three years and here it comes.


----------



## Matchlock (Jun 26, 2010)

Once we have parity then the argument against the euro goes out of the window so we may as well join it.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Matchlock said:


> Once we have parity then the argument against the euro goes out of the window so we may as well join it.


No. We shoulda joined at €1.50 and kept it fixed.

Ray.


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Not to worry. If the brexiters are right the UK will soar and we'll be back to four or five dollars to the pound and you'll be getting at least 3 Euros for your pound by next summer. Tee, hee.


----------



## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

I remember writing an essay at school about decimalisation (must have been a riveting lesson!). [Approx 1967- 4y prior to our changeover.]

I pointed out that, since £1 = $2.40, our penny was the same as the American's cent.

How times have changed!

AND YES, it's so easy to complain about what people have compared to past generations: I remember my Nanna asking why Mum had bought new pans when the tinker would be round next week and he could easily mend the hole. Why did we have a TV in the front room when she kept her's for "best", with an upright piano - no fancy licence needed for that!

Gordon


----------



## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

dghr272 said:


> Says the man with two homes, luxury cars and travels the world that appears to have done quite well living under those "liberal do-gooders in the EU." >


Would have done better without them, I am sure.:grin2:


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Good old fashioned greed. We are all greedy to some extent I suppose, but some are obviously greedier than others.


----------



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I probably was inside the definition of 'in poverty' in 1987


I had no house, was living in a plastic structure 33' long. No mains water or sewerage, no central heating, no TV, no car, only a folding bicycle.



I had an income of about £4-5K.


I was drifting from country to country.......





















.....I thought I was in bliss cruising the Mediterranean.:wink2::laugh:


Geoff


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I can beat that.. Been wandering around Europe for 12 years with no income.


----------



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

erneboy said:


> I can beat that.. Been wandering around Europe for 12 years with no income.


Not even a State Pension, Alan? Should have paid NI in NI:wink2:

Selling the business must have produced a lot of Capital - don't tell RayN he will be after a 'loan':laugh:


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Not old enough Geoff.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Well it’s typical isn’t it?

A joke, surviving very well

Why because you are the successful ones ?

Survived in spite of .........

Well so have I 

But I so remember the struggles and I’m not sure I survived in spite of them

I guess I just got lucky 

Was intelligent enough to get qualifications and a university education 

Earned enough to put my six kids through university 

Does that make me special?

Does that mean those who are struggling to survive were not special enough 

I’m disappointed at the flippancy on this thread 
But then again who cares

Sandra


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Barking.

Hello, goodbye. Goodbye hello. Do us a favour and make your mind up.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Why earnyboy ?

How does what I do affect you ?

The truth is it’s the old boys club

The didn’t we do well club 

Well some of us did well outside of the club

And still worry about those who worked just as hard and didn’t do so well

I’ll go or stay and unfortunately for you 

This isn’t an old boys club 

It’s an open forum 

So tough

Aldra


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Hello. Goodbye.

I don't care whether you stay or go. It's your constant appealing for the sympathy vote that gets me. 

I'm going. Goodbye cruel world. If you can't be nice to me you don't deserve me. Boo hoo. Grow up.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Get real, Earnyboy

You really think I can’t hold my corner?

You really think I haven’t held it in the past?

You really think I care for the sympathy vote?

You really think I care for peoples opinion of me ?

I’m me, and very happy to be me, warts and all 

I’ve raised six kids, not perfectly, and I have 13 grandkids, all living close, all close to me in spite of the fact we will never agree on everything 

And I make that clear that that is fine, never agree unless you are sure, take time to think

And those kids are married to others , and we don’t agree on many things either

But they are here, visiting , debating , disagreeing

Close

Because I am willing to learn

And you really think a disagreement on here devastates me ?

And I’ll leave or stay , cruel world not withstanding 

And of course you my earnyboy can bow out anytime you wish

Unless of course ?.?

Sandra


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

You haven't heard me whinging that nobody loves me and I'm going to jump off some metaphorical bridge.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Are you Earnyboy?

Going to jump off a bridge for lack of love?

Don’t, I love you :kiss:

And actually I’m really well loved

At times too well loved

And lack of love isn’t something I suffer from

Bloody joints is

Sandra


----------

