# Spaying a bitch



## rugbyken (Jan 16, 2006)

Over 20 years since I've had a bitch last 4 dogs all boys our Molly is now three and just gone through a season she was originally bought on breeders terms from a small show kennel not ideal but suited us at the time , unfortunately the chap who bred her has had a stroke and let us know that he would release us from our agreement as it would be irresponsible to try and look after a litter in his condition ,
Last year in Portugal we were almost overrun when she came on heat in the algarve keeping her shut up in that heat and moving on daily so thought that if we didn't breed her ourselves we should have her spayed , spaying wasn't as common back when we last had a bitch but perceived wisdom at the time was that it was best to let them have a litter first though that seems to have gone out of favour now with online recommendations that they be done just after their first season,
She is gorgeous and has a lovely temperament with no health issues I know there are injections available to suppress seasons if the timing falls wrong but if we did want a litter with her this is the optimum age and once spayed the opportunity is gone.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

So

What do you want?

If you want to breed, find a suitable partner

Then get her spayed

Gorgeous or not

Unwanted litters are no joy

And a bitch in season is a pain

To themselves and ardent admirers

And yes there will always be those who advocate first litters

But today's dogs live in a different world

I think both male and female dogs should be neutered if you dont intend to breed

How would you feel if you were prevented from mating

Don't answer that :lol: :lol: 

Aldra


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## bulawayolass (Jul 27, 2010)

Yes get her spayed prevent mating. 
You home the puppies someone breeds one or more yet more dogs 
Someone breeds those 
How many of them will stay for life in the homes don't assume they will assume to many wont
For every home one of the puppies takes a stray who is alive now will loose that chance for a home
How many of the puppies that descend from your bitch will get the life care and vet treatment through their lives.. assume very few.

And if the whelping goes wrong you are looking at a caesarian depending what vet practice does it usually out of hours between £600 to £1500 (very few animals have their puppies in the day)
If her milk dries up feeding every 2 hours and doing all the work 

If you still think breeding is worth it ...go ahead.


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## rugbyken (Jan 16, 2006)

part of the equation was always stud fees and vet fees would be a couple of thousand if i decide a litter is the right move that is part of that answer , the pups themselves i would be keeping one and my daughter is the biggest driver of that idea she wants one, and a couple of others would go easily to friends and family she is a special dog,, the guy that sold us molly said any problems i will have her back dont let her be a problem i think that is a stance every one who breeds a dog should take,
the question was more if she has a litter & keeps a pup with her will she be happier than just neutered, then its a question of what i think


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Come on Rugybyken

Any problems he will take her back??.

I have the dog from hell, and there is no way he's going back to anybody

Cost us thousands and I eye him up daily and see a fluffy poodle replacing him

And niether is Molly going anywhere

If you feel a litter is the right move then it definately is

Our first G Shepherd was an absolute joy and he sired a litter of beautiful pups

If you feel that a litter from Molly would fit in with your life

And her pups will add something to her and your family and friends

You go for it

You won't regret it

Your house might, but hey up that's life :lol: :lol: 

Aldra


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## bulawayolass (Jul 27, 2010)

Sorry l have to disagree with you both l see the reality of all those loved pups in homes ... 

I have put to many bodies from unborn foetus still in their soggy bags to adult dogs in their dotage into plastic bags because of others taking their place and they are stuck at the rescue centre. And to many others need the space they take up. 

The cost isnt what you see 

The cost isnt what you "factor in"

The cost is never seen by you, you will tell everyone and yourselves that every puppy went to a good home.

The cost is every body dropped into a freezer because there was nowhere for them to go but a cold box.

The true cost is the bodies in those freezers

The true cost is the shelters full of dogs

And nowadays they can not get many good old fashioned many mix mongrels the shelters are full of pedigrees or simple mix animals with stupid names to make mugs part with big money for them.

THAT is the true cost of breeding.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Caro

I understand your posts

But sometimes working close skews perceptions

As a social worker specialising in dementia, at times it felt that every one would eventually succumb to dementia, not true

Some dogs deserve to breed, we are not talking about breeders here

But one dog, well loved who's pups are wanted

I would never breed from shadow, I couldn't now anyway,he is totally not suitable being highly strung and therefore unpredictable

But Odin, many years ago sired 6 beautiful pups who we followed and they made their families totally happy

And pain though he may be we love shadow to bits, he has more good points than bad

I think 8O 

Aldra


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## Poulbot (Nov 8, 2013)

This is a subject which really annoys me as I wonder whether the actual question is 'which is best for the owners rather than the dog'?
I know the current british vetinary recommendation is to neuter dogs at the the earliest opportunity, even before 6 months, but that doesn't let the dog's natural growth develop. The reason they neuter is to stop the incidence of unwanted puppies, thus assuming that most owners are totally incapable of keeping their 'in season' dogs indoors fora short while. 
If you love your dog, do what's right for the dog, not what's right for you....or a previous owner.
Rant over.


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## bulawayolass (Jul 27, 2010)

Pyo and tumours that has already been discussed in other thread Poulbot

l agree l am close Aldra but l will always stand by what l say on animal breeding. for reasons l have stated above. As l have said it isnt the visible part of the iceberb that damages the boat.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Buy in a Puppy and your Daughter can do the same. That is one less litter brought into the World.

You could also get one each from a Rescue Centre or a Breed Rescue organisation. We have only bred 4 litters in a lifetime with dogs and I feel much the same as Caro. Looking back, we would have been better off just buying one pup instead of breeding a litter.


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## rugbyken (Jan 16, 2006)

Thanks 747 that is both the problem and probably the answer by that logic we should not have children either, If we bred her it would be in the hope of getting not just her looks but her nature & temperament , wouldn't get a second dog except for that ,
My son is kindly saying that at 70/75 would I be able to give a 5/10yr old of this breed the exercise that she needs another factor I hadn't taken into account the 1hr/2hr walks at the moment are good exercise for me not sure about in ten yrs time?, a cousin downsized from a setter to a spaniel for that reason and still can't keep up.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

rugbyken said:


> Thanks 747 that is both the problem and probably the answer by that logic we should not have children either, If we bred her it would be in the hope of getting not just her looks but her nature & temperament , wouldn't get a second dog except for that ,
> My son is kindly saying that at 70/75 would I be able to give a 5/10yr old of this breed the exercise that she needs another factor I hadn't taken into account the 1hr/2hr walks at the moment are good exercise for me not sure about in ten yrs time?, a cousin downsized from a setter to a spaniel for that reason and still can't keep up.


Why do you think we have Whippets and Pugs at our age? :lol:

All 5 of them are probably less bother to keep than one average Springer. We like Springers (we used to have Gundogs) but they are the wrong breed for us nowadays.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Teach her to run with the bike

That's how shadow gets his exercise, he loves it

Aldra


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## bulawayolass (Jul 27, 2010)

l agree with excercise didnt consider that and age as l tend to forget things like that as unless folks say age and any disability l assume you are young fit and if male sexy!
A spaniel isnt much down in the slow down stakes to a setter unless it is a cavilier they are fairly laid back.

What happens if or when the puppy is nothing like mum and is in fact the total opposite. Never get a dog or anything to "match" get one to be its self. You will always be comparing and that is never fair to the animal. 
100% if you must have that breed have one from breed rescue.

Ermm ok here goes my often said comments on humans...ln areas hit by famine women should be given food and contreceptive injections no inj no food. lt is simple having babies means seeing them starving to death sees damage to women aborting or damage while birthing or watching their kids die.
It means more chance for the kids then alive to survive.

When food/water supply reaches a sustainable level by natural means then have babies.

l also feel that way where ever in the 3rd world you see kids let alone adults starving digging in rubbish heaps and dying for simple reasons.

l now await everyone telling me how racist and nasty l am. While they eat their bags of crisps and yet more photos of children dying of lack of food water and simple things roll across the screen.


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## Paludic (Apr 17, 2007)

there's also the point...that if you are going to breed and say to the buyers...that you'll have the puppy (dog) back if there are any problems. Think about that...it's an undertaking for the next 12yrs...are you in a position to take back (what will then be a third dog for you) and sort out the problems? Exercise/behaviour? Now, and for at least the next decade?

"if" you did have one "back", then that one's not going to be an easy rehome.....or would you then stick with three, or rehome the one you've raised (naturally without problems)....

I too have bred 5 litters, over 30 years, last one 10yrs ago. I won't breed again. As someone told me, if you can't cope with the potential problems and lows, then don't do it for the "highs" and optimistic views into the possible futures....

And however healthy your spaniel is ...have you researched the health problems in your breed? Then start your research to find a stud dog with a good enough temperament to match your bitch.....much harder if you are not experienced in the breed. Whom do you ask? Naturally owners of stud dogs would tell you how wonderful they are...to the inexperienced novice breeder.....

Sorry! best wishes
Sally


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

If you wouldn't consider buying in a puppy then why breed one? If you want a puppy enough then why not buy one.
I agree with all bullowayolass says. I, too, have put so many dogs in freezers that were bred on a whim or even on a proper plan. The fact is that there are far too many dogs in the world. 
I, personally, would like to see a total ban on all breeding until such time as all the rescue centres are virtually empty. Breeders could then pick and choose the right homes rather than grabbing a, possibly unsuitable, home in the desperation of being left with half a litter.

There is also the assumption that mother and pup will be happy. A good general maxim for a happy two-dog household is - different breed and different sex. This takes out the close competitive nature of problems and just leaves you with all the other problems a two dog household brings. Harder to find a dog sitter, more expense, more mess, more noise, more vet bills.
We stopped having two dogs after we were left with one. The bond we had with that one dog was amazing. Two dogs bond (or not!) and can leave you out.


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## rugbyken (Jan 16, 2006)

Molly is often taken for a lanky springer but she is an Irish red and white setter the original from which the red gun dog was bred , they were originally cattle dogs after owning 4 reds in the past they have the same wonderful natures without the sheer stupidity whereas a red doesn't grow up until they're seven this girl was trainable from 6 months , 
As most dog owners are we are totally besotted with her but recognise the restrictions any dog brings and a reasonably healthy 64 yr old can't make decisions for a 75 yr old down the line , my original query was as much regarding the benefits/detriments of spaying to the dog as my own choices in the matter ,
Bulawayolass if your nasty and racist I hate to think where my views on aid & benefits would place me, a helping hand yes but if you choose a different route after that your on your own.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I find this all strange

I appreciate that there are many unwanted puppies in the world

Shadow was a puppy

Big mistake :lol: :lol: 

But if no one breeds, wouldn't breeds die out??

So are we saying that any particular breed can always be got from a rescue centre

The next dog if any may well be for us

But if a particular breed is what you want?

In the past we have given homes to mixed breeds and loved them to bits

Our next one would be a wolfhound

Aldra


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## bulawayolass (Jul 27, 2010)

To be honest Aldra most breeds should be allowed to die out. No l didn't say kill them l said not allowed to breed. 

Folks love a breed, they get the dog who often has from one to multiple inherited problems. 
I don't see how a person can have one of the breeds knowing there is a good chance it will have pain or blindness or deafness heart renal on and on for the list through its life.
Or it's siblings have a problem but you got lucky (well the dog did) how is that loving a breed?

I have had this argument many times and got told not all the the breed have a problem. yet no German Shepherd no Labrador or Retriever are born with perfect hips they all have a degree of problem. l used hips as a common example but lots of others have this or other problems. 

To me breeding from the majority of breeds is irresponsible and unfair. And if the breeds die out... so be it. If not bringing more animals into a life of pain drugs, operations is the cost of loosing a breed... l don't see the problem. 

This is the work of David Sagan on the top 20 problem breeds 
Inherited Diseases in Dogs Database 
idid.vet.cam.ac.uk/search.php 
Click on the breed and have a look at the probably problems 

But then l am a free radical thinker on a lot of things.


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## bulawayolass (Jul 27, 2010)

And opps yes can get pretty much any breed from the general rescue for standard breeds. But most breeds also have breed specific as well. Kennel club have a list of all those on their website and most vet practices have the directory that is sent out of breed specific rescues. Although some breeds l would never get as a rescue adult dog.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Not breeding for a couple of years until all the rescue centres were empty would put all the puppy farmers out of business too 

I have had all my bitches spayed. Never had a problem and they all lived long and healthy lives. I don't agree with spaying pre first season but that's only my opinion.


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