# 30mph over and lose your motorhome! :-(



## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

> Telegraph Travel - Driving in France <


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## 102337 (Jan 6, 2007)

dave
they say every day is a school day  
now where did i leave my feather boots :lol: 
alan


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## vicdicdoc (May 14, 2005)

"Under new French laws, foreign-registered cars caught speeding on camera will be recorded on a national register . . "

Yeah but wot about foreign registered cars caught speeding in this country - I'd bet that the police wouldn't follow suit


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## artona (Jan 19, 2006)

Hi Vic

_Yeah but wot about foreign registered cars caught speeding in this country - I'd bet that the police wouldn't follow suit_

Of course not, the French would not co-operate.

stew


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## 2kias (Sep 18, 2006)

I reckon I got caught by a camera in Limoges 6 weeks ago as the cars behind me were flashing. I was only doing 35 in a 30 limit trying to find our way out of the town. I haven't heard anything but I did not realise they had a register.
Will have to watch my step when we go back on Tuesday!
Anybody know where there is a camera download for my TomTom for France?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Many TomToms come with such databases already installed. It seemed to work pretty well in France for me.

PocketGPSWorld have an international database, but heavily biassed to the UK:
http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/modules.php?name=Cameras&referer=SideBar

For France have a look at:
http://www.radarsenfrance.com/

Dave


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## chapter (May 1, 2005)

take a look here http://english.controleradar.org/speed-camera-detector.php 
it looks like gps is ok also there is a camra list on the left hand side 
chapter


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## venturer (May 1, 2005)

*Spot fines in France*

We spend most of our travelling time in France and have some french friends who have enlightened us to these facts. The police were given powers to reduce the high accident and death rates on French roads and records show that these measures have had a dramatic effect in their reduction. To us it seems to be rather draconian to ban a driver on the spot rather than our system of points and going through the courts, but it works like so many other ideosynchracies in France. The short sharp shock tactics are more effective and it is a pity we here in the UK dont apply the same.
Unlike many of my fellow countrymen, we think the French have a very logical, if unpleasant, way of dealing with misdemeamours. We are saddened by the constant animosity between these two nations.
Vive la France!


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## bigfoot (May 16, 2005)

VIVE L'ANGLETERRE!!


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## passionwagon (Nov 13, 2005)

2kias said:


> I reckon I got caught by a camera in Limoges 6 weeks ago as the cars behind me were flashing. I was only doing 35 in a 30 limit trying to find our way out of the town. I haven't heard anything but I did not realise they had a register.
> Will have to watch my step when we go back on Tuesday!
> Anybody know where there is a camera download for my TomTom for France?


 8O You may still not get any response because if you were in a fixed penalty camera zone you will soon get a UK addressed demand from the french authorities who will have also advised DVLA-- who put 3 points on your licence. Ignore the demand at your peril as the collection will be passed to a collectiona gency who will add their fee! Pip pip :wink:


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## 2kias (Sep 18, 2006)

passionwagon said:


> 2kias said:
> 
> 
> > I reckon I got caught by a camera in Limoges 6 weeks ago as the cars behind me were flashing. I was only doing 35 in a 30 limit trying to find our way out of the town. I haven't heard anything but I did not realise they had a register.
> ...


Thanks for the comforting thoughts!!!!!!


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

First and foremost there is nothing you can do to avoid on the spot fines and their consequences, including on the spot suspensions of the right to drive

Secondly the UK authorities do list foreign cars caught on speed cameras and there is a clamping policy if caught before they leave the country

Third, at present there is no recognition or enforcement of foreign EU fines, penalty points or disqualifications.

There is a policy to introduce them. It dates back to 1998. All 29 EU states are slowly working towards implementation of similar licences and broadly similar penalty point and disqualification systems.

So get caught on the speeding cameras in an EU country and escape back home without being stopped and you don't have to pay the fine. The courts in this country will not enforce the fines, penalties or taxes of another country, yet. Go back to where you were caught at your peril!

The penalty points awarded in the foreign country are not added to your British Licence.There is no provision for that. Eventually there will be, ask me when and I will say not for ten yeras, at least

Since peace and reconciliation in Ireland they have been working towards a system of mutual recognition and enforcement, it has not yet arrived. There are three systems of licences and penalty points involved, each different, Irish, Northern Irish and British. We will see more of these bilateral arrangemenst first

The only reciprocal driving ban system I am aware of is that between the Isle of Man and Britain and Northern Ireland, where if you are banned in one the ban extends to the other, it does not apply to penalty points or to fixed penalty fines. The reason for the reciprocity was that we got fed up of people banned during the bike races pushing their bikes on to the boat and then being able to drive once back in England, sometimes after horrendous accidents, so our government lobbied hard.

Of course if you, as an individual rather than the vehicle you are driving are identified the authorities in any country can open up a driving record and record your infringements, award penalty points to that record and eventually you end up disquaified there.

The resaon foreign Fixed penalties are not enforceable is simple as well.

1. You have to have a licence of that country to have the penalties entered on, you don't they cannot issue the fixed penalty

2. The local court cannot issue the summons for valid service abroad and driving offences are not extraditable

3. Even if it does issue and enter a fine against you in your absence it is not enforceable, by the courts here or by a bailiff

However to go back to practicalities and until bans are EU wide, which thye will be, always pay up, that way you can drive anywhere without fear.

Just in case acquire a licence from a country other than your home country as back up, so you can drive everywhere else but the UK (and IOM) if disqualified at home.

BUT remember you can only have one EU issued license and you must not use any second licence for any illegal purpose, such as driving in UK whilst banned here.

I do not endorse but you may wish to look at

www.getalicence.com

Beware. the e-mail address given is a fake, the form gives away info that would allow identity theft. If you fill in the form then send the signature and picture with all the details they could open a bank account anywhere and if you sent them money they could empty your account


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## 97734 (Feb 16, 2006)

I am really really tired of people whining about the fact that when laws get broken there is something wrong with there being a consequence.

Its really really simple to deal with in this particular case.

Don't speed!

Consequence = Safer Roads and No Offence Committed.

It is that simple. Try it.

Please, for the sake of all road users, children and other pedestrians - just drive within the speed limits.


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## baldlygo (Sep 19, 2006)

What an excellent reply *thieawin*
I don't intend speeding anywhere but it was an interesting read - thanks

Paul


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## MrRob (Jan 15, 2007)

gevans55 said:


> I am really really tired of people whining about the fact that when laws get broken there is something wrong with there being a consequence.
> 
> Its really really simple to deal with in this particular case.
> 
> ...


Sometimes it is very difficult for a tourist to understand the speed limits and other regulations applicable to their "rig".

I have a 4.2 ton van and tow an unbreaked 750kgs trailer .... 
What are the speed limits:
1) in France on the Motorway? 
2) Is it the same when raining.
3) in Norway on a single carrageway? 
4) on Germany Autobahn 
5) on a German rural secondary road passing through a group of 6 houses. (is it a village?)

the answers are not THAT easy to find !

Is an appeal mechanism in place?

Edit .... Of course the twit doing 130 in a 90 KPH zone deserves all he got


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

MrRob said:


> Sometimes it is very difficult for a tourist to understand the speed limits and other regulations applicable to their "rig"


Why? A sign with "50" means 50. Speed limits are a universal principle. All you have to do is read the signs when driving.



MrRob said:


> the answers are not THAT easy to find !


Answers to what?



MrRob said:


> Is an appeal mechanism in place?


I would imagine the amount of research into the French legal system to answer that would be well in excess of the amount of research into speed limits.

Dougie.


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## MrRob (Jan 15, 2007)

asprn said:


> MrRob said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes it is very difficult for a tourist to understand the speed limits and other regulations applicable to their "rig"
> ...


I think you have proved my point.

In each of the above cases (numbered 1to5 ) there would be NO SIGNS or the speed a towing vehilel can travel would be different to any "Signed" limits. They can also be affected by the weight of the trailer and towing vehicle

[EDIT - it would be possible to say within the "signed" limit and be 30KPH over your legal speed limit.]

.... sorry! I wasn't clear. My question about a right of appeal was in relation to the DVLA issuing demand for payment on behalf of the French authorities and adding points to your UK license which would not be covered by French law.


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## 103945 (Apr 17, 2007)

You have Sarkozy to thank for the new crack-down on speeding. His view is that speed kills, so he's killing speed.

Please, do NOT attempt to get a foreign driving licence to run alongside your UK one. Not only is it highly illegal, it won't work! In order to apply for the foreign licence, you have to surrender the UK one, which is sent back to DVLA as "cancelled".

The only way to guarantee not getting fined for speeding in France is ... don't speed! Sure, the fixed cameras are well-signposted - see a "speed camera" sign, and there WILL be a fixed camera within 1km of the sign (could be more than one though, so dont rely on "I've seen one, I'm OK now"). HOWEVER!!! The Gendarmes love nothing better than hiding in a side road, or behind a sign post or bush, with a speed trap. No advanced warning of these, either by signs or by "sat-nav".

On the subject of Gendarmes, their other favourite is the "failing to stop at a stop-sign". To avoid this on-the-spot fine (I believe it's 90 euros), if you see a stop sign, make sure you come to a complete stop for a few seconds.

Happy touring!!


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

But i manged to get answers to 1 to 5 in a few minutes from the internet these were backed up by reading Caravan europe 1 and 2 from the CC


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

sallytrafic said:


> But i manged to get answers to 1 to 5 in a few minutes from the internet these were backed up by reading Caravan europe 1 and 2 from the CC


Eggsackerly.

Dougie.


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

MrRob said:


> Sometimes it is very difficult for a tourist to understand the speed limits and other regulations applicable to their "rig".
> 
> I have a 4.2 ton van and tow an unbreaked 750kgs trailer ....
> What are the speed limits:
> ...


Hi,

that is easy to find out. Google is your friend :wink:

1) 110 kph
2) No, then it is 90 kph
3) 80 kph
4) 80 kph
5) Outside of a town/village 80 kph, inside 50 kph.

The difference between out-of and in-town in Germany does not depend on the number of houses, but only on these signs:

If you see this sign on the right side of the road (sometimes on both sides), then you are entering a town:









If you see this sign on the left side of the road (sometimes on both sides), then you are leaving a town:









Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## thefman (May 1, 2005)

8O whats the hurry? your on holiday  





mark.


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## MrRob (Jan 15, 2007)

asprn said:


> sallytrafic said:
> 
> 
> > But i manged to get answers to 1 to 5 in a few minutes from the internet these were backed up by reading Caravan europe 1 and 2 from the CC
> ...


well you are a better internetter than I 8) 
Unfortunatly I can only find information relating to "cars" and vans up to 3.5 ton towing trailers .... can you provide a link to some definitive data on speed limits affecting Larger Goods Vehicles (LGVs), Motorcaravans, or whatever we are classed as country by country. throughout Europe.



Boff said:


> MrRob said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes it is very difficult for a tourist to understand the speed limits and other regulations applicable to their "rig".
> ...


Cheers But I think it is 50 (or 60) KPH for an unbreaked trailer in Norway .... but I stand to be corrected


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

>French speed limits en francaise<

>French speed limits less official source<

<Norway inc trailer>

That do for starters?


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## MrRob (Jan 15, 2007)

sallytrafic said:


> >French speed limits en francaise<
> 
> >French speed limits less official source<
> 
> ...


THANK YOU .... the French Official one is great I wonder if there a database of OFFICIAL pages Country by Country ?

That Norway page says 60 KPH great ! .... think I was getting MPH and KPH and braked and unbraked limits confused


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Speeding*

I agree with the idea wholly.

Whilst on the subject, how many of you with Vans over 3500kG's slow down to 30kMh where indicated in villages?.

I was coming up an N road towards Langres few weeks ago. Had a trail of irate drivers behind us as I had slowed to 30kmh.

Guess who was lurking at the end of the Village?

Yep, the boys in blue. Laser at the ready and a 7.5t truck getting booked (French Reg)

Beware.


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

.... sorry! I wasn't clear. My question about a right of appeal was in relation to the DVLA issuing demand for payment on behalf of the French authorities and adding points to your UK license which would not be covered by French law.[/quote]

*But they cannot and do not do that.......yet*.


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## 103945 (Apr 17, 2007)

The hefty on-the-spot fine is scary enough!! 8O


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

2kias said:


> Anybody know where there is a camera download for my TomTom for France?


I thought it was illegal in France to have a device in the car which warned you of the location of speed cameras ?

G


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## 103945 (Apr 17, 2007)

Not illegal if it only warns of the fixed ones. However, I worry about folk who drive and NEED an audible warning in their cab about fixed speed cameras in France, as there is always a huge sign within 1km of the camera. If these people do not see these enormous signs, should they really be driving at all? :? 

It is totally illegal to have a "radar detection device" - one that warns you of the mobile cameras and hand-held devices. Not sure what the penalty would be for being caught using one, but I wouldn't like to try it!!


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

If you use viamichelin.com for route planning you'll find fixed camaras flagged as:- (Using A20 Vierzon/Limoges)

SPEED CAMERA:A20 km marker 62.2 (130 km/h),near Saint-Maur. 

SPEED CAMERA:A20 km marker 179.7 (110 km/h),near Limoges.

Take the exit towards: EXIT 33
LIMOGES-CENTRE
PÉRIGUEUX
AIXE-SUR-VIENNE
ROCHECHOUART
C.H.R.U. DUPUYTREN


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## passionwagon (Nov 13, 2005)

thieawin said:


> .... sorry! I wasn't clear. My question about a right of appeal was in relation to the DVLA issuing demand for payment on behalf of the French authorities and adding points to your UK license which would not be covered by French law.


But the cannot and do not do that.......yet.[/quote]
8O Sorry but the DVLA is required to add the appropriate points as if it was a UK offence. This is a euro agreement ,with most and eventually all euro countries implementing. It is legal and there is no appeal in UK as any appeal must be lodged in the country of the offence! Unfortunately the UK is one of the few euro countries to give points , but they will all do this sometime in the future. One other consideration is the collection of the fine/penalty will be put in the hands of international debt collectors-goodness know what their added fee will be. Better to pay up at the time or as soon as you receive the demand. Pip pip :wink:


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## SidT (May 9, 2005)

Passionwagon wrote.

*This is a euro agreement ,with most and eventually all euro countries implementing. *

I would not put any money on that one.

Cheers Sid


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## 103945 (Apr 17, 2007)

Why ever not, SidT? It is in their interests to co-operate with European law in this respect - if they deal with the points for other countries, that will be reciprocal ... as will the assistance in collecting fines. OK, so dishing points does not help any country directly, but the revenue from the speeding fines of visitors is potentially enormous!


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

Passionwagon. You are incorrect. Please stop frightening drivers uneccesarily

Under the 2003 RTA there is provision for Reciprocal Recognition of EU Disqualifications, but that is not in yet.

There is provision for reciprocal recognition of IOM, Guernsey and Jersey. IOM is now in

The 1998 Directive, part of Schengen Open borders, most of which UK opted out of, which may eventually see recognition of EU penalty points is not yet in and will not be for a long time until all EU countries try and homologise first their driving categories on licences and second their penalty points

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/roads...ement_20061106/enforcement_united_kingdom.pdf

Even Ireland and Northern Ireland have been unable to agree a bilateral agreement , in the same language with fairly similar concepts.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Re inter EU fines and penalty points. As usual it is not as black and white as laid out above but this from a recent committee in the House of Lords discussing a bill to fine holders of foreign but EU licences (necessary because we can send off our paper licence to receive a fixed penalty but a holder of an EU licence does not have that ability so has to be taken to court which always results in a more severe penalty.

Dr. Ladyman: There are two answers: one answer is in the Bill, and we shall come to it when we discuss under clause 11 the ability to take deposits and to immobilise vehicles if we do not think that somebody has a suitable address. The other answer-this is where my officials might start to panic, because I am going to lapse into areas of legislation and European directives that are not directly part of the Bill-is in the second EU driving licence directive. It puts in place a mechanism whereby EU countries will recognise the penalty points, endorsements and licences of each other's country.

Dr Ladysmith Minister of State for transport "

_The right hon. Gentleman will forgive me for speaking from memory, but I think that the directive does not come into force until every member state has ratified it, and currently only three have done so. It provides for bilateral agreements between member states to try to deal with the situation. *So far, we have entered into a bilateral arrangement with the Irish Government to recognise each other's driving licences. If somebody loses their licence in the UK, they will not be able to return to Ireland to get another one; likewise, if somebody loses their licence in Ireland, they need not think that they can come to the UK to get a licence.*

The arrangement has been complex, because Ireland's totting up system is different from ours and much negotiation is required to reach synergy in two different legal systems. It is complicated and it takes a long time. Given that it will take even longer-almost glacial periods-to get EU-wide agreement to all those arrangements, we must do the best that we can in the meantime. This set of clauses and clause 11, which provide powers to take deposits, immobilise vehicles and change our arrangements so that the counterpart licence is not necessary to access our fixed penalty point system, are the best that we can do in the meantime. _"

By the Way the good doctor seems to use the word 'synergy' in a new way, ie not 'greater than the sum of the parts'


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"the good doctor seems to use the word 'synergy' in a new way"
That's very gracious of you, Frank. She's wrong, and you know it 

Parity or equity maybe.

Dave


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## thieawin (Jun 7, 2006)

It is not complicated at all. Read my posts within the topic and it is set out clearly

1. EU fines and penalty points do not yet follow you home

2. In due course they will do.

3. There is EU and GB and Scots legislation to allow it but it is not yet in force

4. You can end up with two licences which woukld be recognised throughout EU, I agree 2 EU licenses are technically impossible because you have to surrender one to get the other. Some peope have grandfather rights, if they passed their test as complete beginners in two countries, or if they got an EU licence without having to surrender their original one, possible pre 1980, or if you have an EU UK licence, get a licence from a recognised foreign country, not requiring surrender of licence number one, and then convert that say, Canadian licence into a 2nd EU licence in Spain

The quote from sallytraffic/Frank is about 5 years old, from the passing of the 2003 RTA.

The bilateral agreement quoted with Ireland does not go so far as enforcing or recognising and entering on each others licences penalty points or fines, fixed or other wise or even recognising each others bans or allowing colection of fines across border.

It does one thing

If you had a Irish licence came to UK and changed for a GB licence or a NI licence and then got banned in the UK you used to be able to go back to Ireland and have your Irish Licence re issued, (and vice versa of course) so you could drive in all of the world except UK and IOM (which have had receprocal bans since 2005)

Under this agreement each DVLA, in Ireland GB and NI tells the other of disqaulifications on such transferred licences so that if someone now tries that, tough. That is all that it is.

The original EU aim was cfor reciprocal enforcement of fines by march 2007, but I believe there has been some "slippage".


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

thieawin said:


> clipped...The quote from sallytraffic/Frank is about 5 years old, from the passing of the 2003 RTA....


No it isn't it was 23rd March 2006. If you are going to challenge/disparage people's contributions get all your facts right please. As a lawyer you may be used to adversarial debate but some of us are engineers.  

Thursday 23 March 2006
(Morning)
[Janet Anderson in the Chair]
Road Safety Bill [Lords]


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"...you may be used to adversarial debate but some of us are engineers."

And therefore have learned the hard way not to go there .....


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