# Up to 3500kg vs Over 3500kgs Pros and Cons



## Topefisher (Apr 20, 2011)

OK so I am still a newbee researching which way to go for our 1st MH purchase. Only two of us.
Favourite at the moment is the Bessacar E560 or Bolero 680FB ( same units - different schemes ). Fixed bed layout + good lounging area + feeling of space.
3500 kg GVW with 350kg payload.
350kg payload as it stands is just not sufficient for us with quite a few 4-6 week overseas trips planned.

Dealer says the MGW can be increased by around 200kg ( 3700kgs ish ) thus increasing payload by same ( 550kgs ish ), which means at some later stage if desired I could have replated and returned to original GVW if thought necessary. The methods of this have been much discussed on this forum.

Much Googling and trolling thru' various posts does not seem to come up with straightforward advantages/disadvantages.
Below is what I see ( not in any order of importance ) as the main ones:
.
*Advantages of over 3500kgs:*
1. Bigger payloads = more gear etc
2. Longer units where needed
3. More people carrying capacity with additional berths
4. Higher towing capacities
5. More luxurious van availability

*Disadvantages of over 3500kgs:*
1. Having to re-establish C1 license provision by way of D4 medical at 70 years old
2. Higher fuel consumptions with heavier loads
3. Lower speed limits in France and other European countries
4. Special breakdown cover policy/arrangements needed.
5. Additional toll fees roads/tunnels etc
6. The bigger and weightier the unit, the less versatile.

The questions I am not sure of are:

1. Is the insurance usually more expensive over 3500kgs?
2. Is road tax more expensive both UK based and temp when going thro' some countries in Europe?

Could you please expand these lists to cover anything that I may be missing where possible please.


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*3500kg*

Hi

I have a 5000kg van and agree with many of your comments above.

Road tax is cheaper for a van over 3500kg - £165 per year in the UK. I think it is £180 or a van under 3500kg.

Insurance varies so greatly, post code, storage post code, tracker all affect this to a degree.

I would personally get the chunkiest van!

Russell


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Information overload Tope! 8O

While I agree it's good to do the research and work out the pro and con lists, what really matters is what it "feels like" to you and the Memsahib when you sit in the habitation area.

That's where you will be living, and only the two of you know what suits you. All the suggestions and advice we can give will be of limited use since we all have very different orders of priority.

For example - we think a fixed bed is a stupid "_flavour-of-the-month_" marketing ploy for most vanners, and can't understand why anyone would want to lug around 30 square feet of space which is totally wasted during all their waking hours. :roll: _(OK - a bit OTT, but you see why my advice on that aspect is totally useless to you.)_

We also like the very much increased flexibility of a small "go anywhere" van, and wouldn't accept a great big bus if someone offered it free. :roll: (_I'm telling porkies of course . . . I'd flog it and buy a small van._ :lol: :lol: )

Go round all the shows and showrooms and sit in as many as you can with your notebook and pencil. And then buy the one the wife likes best!! _(I'm not entirely joking here. The ladies often see past the gloss and glitter and can better appreciate the practicalities of living in the van.)_

Hope this helps, if not in the way you anticipated. :wink:

Dave


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## clive1821 (Mar 27, 2010)

Yes Hi and welcome, more or less you have summed it up as Rus says theres a little saving on the road tax but not a lot compared with the expense of the van etc..... just go with the flow and chose what is best for you... there are some issues with the tolls in france with twin axels you get cat 4 at the tolls and it gets a little expensive in real terms its not that much again compared with whats good for you.... get what you like and enjoy the travel as life is far to short....


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## Westkirby01 (Jan 25, 2009)

As you can see from the avatar our van is a 670 and up to 4500. We spent 6 month travelling and loved every minute. The only time space was at a premium is when the snow fell and we needed a place to hang dry the laundry. 

We overcame some of the problem by using the adjustable pole for the side of the awning as an indoor line. It took the weight of heavy clothing.

Before we left we stripped out everything and put back only essentials. Most of which we never used.

The benefit of a larger van gave us two main areas. A dinette area for meals and a lounge area. Both could be used for relaxation. If we only had the dinette area and a fixed bed then it would have been horrendous, 6 month sitting at a table? 

Wish you well


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

So you're looking at a van that _can_ (just) be under the 3500kg limit, but you'd get replated to provide extra flexibility. Against that backdrop, all comments about bigger vans being more hefty and restricting access/flexibility are spurious, as your chosen van will be the size it is, regardless of whether it's replated or not.

Controversial opinion : I'm firmly of the view that the vast majority of sub-3500kg coachbuilts run overweight for much of the time. Because that not very generous 350kg, for example, assumes you & your's are a svelte 75kg...we'd have to amputate limbs to achieve that.

So unless you're approaching 70 or lucky enough to be too young to have C1 rights, I'd not be bothered by the 3500kg transition at all.

To address some of your cons;



Topefisher said:


> 2. Higher fuel consumptions with heavier loads


Yes, but e.g. difference between my old 3300kg van and current 4000kg van is approx 15%, by my maths with my mileage approx £400/yr. But if you're talking same van, flexibility to have a couple of hundred kilo worth of gear, I doubt there'd be much difference.



Topefisher said:


> 3. Lower speed limits in France and other European countries


True, but you're driving a motorhome, not a sports car. 50-60mph is plenty.



Topefisher said:


> 4. Special breakdown cover policy/arrangements needed.


Most inclusive policies will cover above 3500kg.



Topefisher said:


> 6. The bigger and weightier the unit, the less versatile.


See my comments above. To be honest, so long as you're sub e.g. 7.5M, I don't think the difference between 6.5M and 7.5M makes a whole lot of difference.



Topefisher said:


> 1. Is the insurance usually more expensive over 3500kgs?


No. At least mine wasn't. I transitioned from a 3300kg van to a 4000kg van worth approx 80% more and premium didn't change.



Topefisher said:


> 2. Is road tax more expensive both UK based and temp when going thro' some countries in Europe?


UK it's cheaper above 3500kg. Switzerland (poss Austria) a different taxation regime applies...can be more or less, according to your usage pattern.


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## Bob45 (Jan 22, 2007)

When I bought my Hymer in Germany I didn't realise it was 3800kgs and came above the magic 3500kgs. The extra payload is usefull but it means my youngest son can't drive it which I regret.
As for layout - we wanted a fixed bed and are more than happy with the smaller "lounge" area as the front swivel seats are very comfortable. There are only two of us and there seems plenty of room.
We did spend ages sitting and lying in many M/H before we chose this one.
All the best.

Bob


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Tope

Firstly, you seem to be well on the way in decision making in that you pros and cons are quite comprehensive and quite accurate.

Although i do not know the models you are looking at in detail, they are obviously substantial at an empty weight of circa 3150kg.

Word of caution, many owners discover that actual weights as delivered do not match the brochure/dealers stated weights, so payload may not be what you think.

Even at 350kg that is not a lot when you consider 50lt water is 50kg and 50lt fuel about 37kg, so there is 1/4 gone before you put the other half in (say 45kg)

You are in very much the same market that I was in 2 years ago and I very quickly decided that to get the comfort and payload I wanted the MH had to be able to be plated at over 3500kg.

If you decide the same, you may as well go for one that can be up to 4000kg rather than just another 200kg. The additional costs will be marginal.

Re Zebedee's comment on fixed beds - it is all personal, but for me that it is not wasted space in the day because below it is my big garage, push/motorbike, hose reel, levellers, buckets, comfortable canvass deck chairs (they weigh 4kg each) and lots more AND ALL EASILY ACCESSIBLE !

In essence, looking at MHs of empty weight (actual) over 3000kg my advice would be to ignore the artificial limit of 3500kg and go for what you want, as others have said, because the advantages and disadvantages balance out.

Good luck - the looking is fun, the reality is better!

Geoff


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## aguilas389 (May 18, 2008)

The size of the van all depends on the length of time you intend spending in it. It is pointless have a huge vehicle if you only spend the odd weekend and a couple of 2 week trips to Europe each year. The longer you spend in it the larger the van you want. After spending 3 days in torrential rain one year in Marbella in a IH Rio we just had to get a bigger van. Hymer 544 came next, great wagon lots more room, 3500kgs go anywhere. Then we started travelling for 6 months at a time. Needed a larger van................staying with the 754 though unless I win the lottery, we just keep off the toll roads and bought a Tomtom that we can enter the vehicle's dimensions in so as not to get stuck in the streets of Florence again! We would have saved loads of money had we bought the 754 in the first place!.
Marion & Mike


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

I agree with rosbotham,

We purchased our MH totally oblivious of weights, licence requirements etc, and were not given guidence by brownhills staff on the matter. It was purchased for the following:

comfort
ease of use
fixed bed
manufacturers reputation

As it transpires it is 3500 kg which is fine and allows our daughter / son in law to drive.
The load margin is poor . I used local quary weighbridge and without much gear, no clothes, food, or water the weight was 3400kg. The towbar probably weighs in at 50kg alone.
If we needed to exceed the payload by a large margin i would tow a trailer.

Russell I am sure my last road tax (VED) was £200. on 07/11
All the print has faded so does not shoe amount or registration on disc

Dave p


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## Richard_M (Dec 17, 2010)

Topefisher said:


> *Disadvantages of over 3500kgs:*
> 
> 3. Lower speed limits in France and other European countries


Lower speed limits apply over 3050kg unladen weight and NOT 3500kg.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Richard, you are correct on speed limits for > 3050kg unladen in UK.

Is that also correct for Europe? I really do not know.

The unladen weight is not on the plate, so can you imagine a policeman taking any vehicle to a weighbridge, unloading it, including de-tanking the fuel etc. just to prove the driver exceeded the speed limit. 

"Candid Camera" come back, all is forgiven!

Geoff


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> Richard, you are correct on speed limits for > 3050kg unladen in UK.
> 
> Is that also correct for Europe? I really do not know.
> Geoff


No. At least according to this month's Practical Motorhome, quoting the Caravan Club's legal advice. In France at least, it's the GVW that matters, and the breakpoint is 3500kg. Wouldn't know elsewhere...


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Dave P might be right about VED on under 3500kg, but my, over 3500kg so Private Heavy Goods Vehicle, was unchanged from last year at GBP 165.00 at end April.

Geoff


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## Topefisher (Apr 20, 2011)

Thank you people ,for your very valuable and rapid response.

Nothing on our selection is fixed yet and your input seems to confirm I am not at present seriously missing anything more to consider in our choice. The 3500kg point is not a final value in our selection by any means.

Yes I do 100% agree that layouts are a very personal issue on space value.
I also agree that her indoors will be the final judge on selection no matter what arguement I put forward.

For this reason alone we have had to rule out a lot of the continental units that insist on putting ovens so high that my wife cannot even see in them let alone safely use one.

Many years previously (35+ ish) of caravanning has given us some experience on habitation and also spoilt us a bit for space.

We do however have no experience with manipulating a motorhome down smallish lanes albeit we have towed down some in our time.

We at the moment have settled on a maximum length for us around the 7 metre region.

In the practicality of things, fixed bed ( albeit as stated is wasted space for daytime for use other than a bit of lounging/reading etc ) is a must for a few reasons for us i.e. we have argued so many times in the past on who's turn to make a bed up it is when both tired. 
We also do quite a few motorcycle rallies ( known for some heavy drinking sessions ) where in the early hours of a morning we may just want have a last drink with some friends before falling into a bed ( literally ) or just in fact fall straight in.
I am afraid the days of setting down tables/pulling out slats, manipulating cushions, dragging out bedding and pillows is over.


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## henede (Nov 18, 2009)

*Renault*

Just got ours replated by svtec to 3.9t. Many can be plated higher but this is the max for a R. master.

Road tax came down from £210 to £165.

Think you'll find you may start out with plenty of payload, but a little bit of weight added here and there soon adds up!

Henry.


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## JeanLuc (Jan 13, 2007)

Rosbotham said:


> No. At least according to this month's Practical Motorhome, quoting the Caravan Club's legal advice. In France at least, it's the GVW that matters, and the breakpoint is 3500kg. Wouldn't know elsewhere...


Unlike the UK which, for reasons that I cannot fathom, relates speed limit to ULW (3,050 kg in this case), an almost unknowable figure for most motorhomes, the rest of Europe is much more logical. GVW (also called MAM or MTPLM) is used, since that is what the vehicle is capable of carrying and is therefore what the brakes, chassis etc. are designed for.

So once you cross the Channel, different limits apply to motorhomes with GVW over 3,500 kg. In France, the limit is 80 kph on single carriageway roads and I think, 100 kph on dual carriageways and 110 kph on motorways. If using a UK speedo, 50mph, 62 mph and 68 mph respectively. Many other countries, particularly in central Europe, apply a limit of 80 kph on all roads.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Topefisher said:


> I am afraid the days of setting down tables/pulling out slats, manipulating cushions, dragging out bedding and pillows is over.


So is it for us Tope. :wink: (_Also previously long standing caravanners_.)

We can make our bed in less than a minute - literally!

Pull the side benches to the middle on their rails, the backrests drop down to fill the gaps, chuck the duvets down . . . done!!

Worth asking for a demo in some vans if only to keep all your options open! You might find the perfect van - all excpet a fixed bed, but if it's as easy as ours you may decide it's worth compromising.

Dave


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## Topefisher (Apr 20, 2011)

Like to say a final thanks to everybody ( having already said thanks to each ) as you have perfectly addressed my questions and offered far more info of great value.

I now have no reservations about going over the 3500kgs to achieve a good payload if needed. 

The other factor that I intimated but didn't actually mention is that I need towing ability to 1300kgs plus. 
Rules out a lots of units and most of the Autosleepers Zebedee I am afraid, except the Cotswolds.

I also hope that somebody else in the same position as me can now find a central reference to this post when doing a similar search as I have previously had to do on a fragmented basis.


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## carol (May 9, 2005)

May I add a few thoughts

We have a LHD Rapido with fixed island bed. No oven by choice although Rapido do fit theirs in below the hob. 

We started in 1990 with a Hymer 564 which had the usual drop down bed of the A class and great quality. Brilliant end shower and double wardrobe layout. We went fro. That then around 20ft to a 34ft RV. Great for longer trips but you needed to tow. Not so easy

A break of a few years and the. Another Hymer this time the 640B D
Starline. If I could have put up with the drop down bed it would have been the perfect van. 

If you go for a fixed bed think about night time walks to the loo. Can you get in it easily or does it have one od those noisy sliding doors. Oh yes did you have to climb over someone to get there

As to bed making. Corner beds are difficult if you intend to use proper sheets etc., but so too are the island beds as you have to get on the mattress to put said sheet over the mattress. 

Rear kitchens can be a pain too if people are walking in and out. 

Continental motorhomes are better made in my opinion. Please look at stock but don't buy from them whatever the deal. Just read the forum and you will see so many after sales problems. 

PAYLOAD. Bear in mind ANYTHING added to the van from awning, rear view camera, mud flaps, extra leisure batteries, GPS, all have to be deducted and your partner too. That payload will go nowhere

When buying this mh we ordered it at Dusseldorf as we prefer LHD (as more driving is done there on unfamiliar roads than in UK) and by the time we had added the auto gearbox and 3 litre enginerm cruise, awning etc etc, solars, camos, I realised we needed to order the Heavy chassis as well. Just to enable us to add clothes etc

Best of luck choosing. A friend who used to be a dealer told me. Spend a couple of hours in the mh you think will suit you, pretend to cook a meal, rearm sleep on those beds etc., plan where things would go. If it all works buy it. If the dealer doesn't like it walk away and buy elsewhere. They should want you to be happy

Carol


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