# Act fast to beat big Efoy fuel price rise



## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

Efoy users might like to know that the price of Efoy fuel cartridges is increasing by around 30% from this coming Monday, 12th September.

We will accept orders online at the current prices up to 11am on that day, in time to place our own orders with the UK distributor before they apply the new prices from midday.

More information on our website <>

David


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Good info for efoy users,  hugely damaging for wannabe efoy users. 8O 8) 

tony


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Thanks for letting us know David. I am in Germany so won't order any just now. 

This looks plain daft to me. Efoy was already a questionable solution to the power needs in a motorhome. I think they will price themselves right out of the market with this move in combination with the price of the new models, Alan.

Edit: The price of technology is supposed to reduce as it develops and savings of scale are made in production. Not so here it seems.


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## spatz1 (May 19, 2011)

erneboy said:


> Thanks for letting us know David. I am in Germany so won't order any just now.
> 
> This looks plain daft to me. Efoy was already a questionable solution to the power needs in a motorhome. I think they will price themselves right out of the market with this move in combination with the price of the new models, Alan.
> 
> Edit: The price of technology is supposed to reduce as it develops and savings of scale are made in production. Not so here it seems.


Surely you can top a "catridge" up and make savings !


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## andyangyh (May 1, 2005)

I always thought they were a good idea but, like all new technology, expensive. Thought I'd wait for the "early adopters" to jump in and then get in when the price came down as it did with mp3 players, flat screen TVs etc. I remember wincing at the price a couple of years back but an extra 30%???? Glad I'm not an early adopter.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes, you can save money for a few hours till the standard methanol clogs up the works and destroys the fuel cell. Believe me I know.

Efoy fuel is not the same as the methanol you can buy in drums, it's further refined they say, Alan.


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## spatz1 (May 19, 2011)

erneboy said:


> Yes, you can save money for a few hours till the standard methanol clogs up the works and destroys the fuel cell. Believe me I know.
> 
> Efoy fuel is not the same as the methanol you can buy in drums, it's further refined they say, Alan.


My future father in law has spent a lifetime manufacturing chemicals at the "leek" chemicals plant and on questioning him on this he asured me you couldnt get better than what they supply worldwide and even that is nt 100% pure...

can i ask what quality was used by your mate :wink:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Sorry it was years ago. It was a barrel of Methanol is all I remember, Alan.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*efoy*

I was considering one. But with the price hikes. Decided well against them.

TM


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## spatz1 (May 19, 2011)

erneboy said:


> Sorry it was years ago. It was a barrel of Methanol is all I remember, Alan.


It was the price of catridges and the rumours of dont use anything else that put me off but i can see how they started as there are different grades of methanol purity....

I m mean, who d pay £3k upfront and £35 for a 9kw catridge enless money was no objection


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

spatz1 said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, you can save money for a few hours till the standard methanol clogs up the works and destroys the fuel cell. Believe me I know.
> ...


Another aspect to consider regarding purity is the high risk of contamination occurring when the methanol is transferred from a bulk supply to the cartridges; I'd imagine that conditions would be most unlike the highly controlled environment which we might assume for the SFC supply.


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

*Re: efoy*



teemyob said:


> I was considering one. But with the price hikes. Decided well against them.
> 
> TM


It's a big increase but to add a slightly different perpective, consider that the price has been unchanged for rather a long time (when I've got a mo I'll peek back at our own price history) - during a time when the value of the £ against the euro has fallen steadily and so it would be expected that the UK price would rise.

The real usage cost of the methanol for Efoy fuel cell owners of course is related to their average power usage and given SFC's estimates of the number of days that a cartridge might last for a typical user, I would make a roughtimate that the increase might mean an extra cost of perhaps 50p per day.

Obviously not welcome but perhaps not as daunting as might seem at first gasp ....

David


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## Andysam (May 10, 2005)

Pure Methanol is 99.99% pure. I don't see why this could not be used to refill the cartridges BUT everyone please remember Methanol is poisonous and can be absorbed through the skin.

I use it regularly instead of meths for other hobbies.


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

*Re: efoy*



davidcampervanstuff said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> > I was considering one. But with the price hikes. Decided well against them.
> ...


As I thought, looking back at the history of our net retail prices (and therefore ignoring the recent VAT fluctuations), they have been substantially the same since March 2009 - so that means no underlying price increase either in our buying or selling price for around 30 months.

Given the rise in transport costs and the falling pound during that period, it could be that SFC has held back on price increases for as long as it could.

David


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: efoy*



davidcampervanstuff said:


> davidcampervanstuff said:
> 
> 
> > teemyob said:
> ...


Yes but 30% 

I was also considering Efoy but will cross it off my list now.


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## PaulW2 (May 30, 2010)

I toyed with the idea of an Efoy as well but this helps to finally knock the idea on the head for me too.

Paul


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I have had my Efoy for around five years now and like it very much. Mine is coming near the end of it's guaranteed life and I would have been buying another but given the big price rise both for the new units and for the fuel I think it's looking quite unlikely now.

I understand that they will take your old unit in against a new one but despite having asked several times this has not been confirmed nor has any indication of how much would be allowed against a new one been given.

What is not often discussed is that the units are guaranteed for 3,000 hours or 3 years, SFC say they may last up to 5,000 hours which means that they should be keen for repeat sales, Alan.


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## Andysam (May 10, 2005)

*Re: efoy*



davidcampervanstuff said:


> As I thought, looking back at the history of our net retail prices (and therefore ignoring the recent VAT fluctuations), they have been substantially the same since March 2009 - so that means no underlying price increase either in our buying or selling price for around 30 months.
> 
> Given the rise in transport costs and the falling pound during that period, it could be that SFC has held back on price increases for as long as it could.
> 
> David


David,

I know it's not your increase, but the price of my methanol has fallen over the last 3 years never mind being stable.


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

*Re: efoy*



Andysam said:


> davidcampervanstuff said:
> 
> 
> > As I thought, looking back at the history of our net retail prices (and therefore ignoring the recent VAT fluctuations), they have been substantially the same since March 2009 - so that means no underlying price increase either in our buying or selling price for around 30 months.
> ...


Hi Andysam,

It's important to remember that the Efoy cartridges are an entire system, not merely the methanol contents. SFC has developed a complete fueling solution which is designed for safety and convenience as well as reliability.

The user only has to put a new cartridge in place and screw the cap onto the valve-sealed cartridge, without ever any risk of spillage, leakage or fumes. It takes seconds to do.

The cartridge is replaced every time that the fuel is replaced, preventing any contamination of the methanol from the eventual escape of chemicals from the materials of the plastic container itself. The container is approved and tested for it's purpose.

I would guess that the hobby uses which you refer to do not involve something as extremely sensitive and expensive as a fuel stack and are not going to cause much harm if a bit of contamination gets in here or there. SFC, on the other hand has gone to great lengths to develop, manufacture and distribute a system that carries none of these worries or messing about.

I can't imagine that the average Efoy user would dream of circumventing all this care that SFC has taken with it's product . What the Efoy user enjoys can't be compared with 'filling your own' and nor can the cost of distributing these sophisticated cartridges around Europe be compared with the cost of bulk supplies.

There's no getting away from the fact that this price rise is very regrettable but the cartridges shouldn't be compared on the same terms as the raw methanol on it's own.

David


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## Andysam (May 10, 2005)

Noted- it's probably the cost of the cartridge materials that have gone up then.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Ah well, probably not. Although they call it a cartridge really it's a 5 or 10lt plastic container just the same as the ones juice or anything else comes in. The only difference is that there is a little plastic device stuck in the neck to prevent spillage and possibly perform other functions. That little top is no more elabourate than a child proof top and I am sure costs no more. Calling the whole thing a "cartridge" is good marketing though, Alan.


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## spatz1 (May 19, 2011)

erneboy said:


> Ah well, probably not. Although they call it a cartridge really it's a 5 or 10lt plastic container just the same as the ones juice or anything else comes in. The only difference is that there is a little plastic device stuck in the neck to prevent spillage and possibly perform other functions. That little top is no more elabourate than a child proof top and I am sure costs no more. Calling the whole thing a "cartridge" is good marketing though, Alan.


and here it is in all its costly glory....

http://screencast.com/t/T10Zeli31

Marvelous, the contents must be worth a fiver !!!!


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

*Re: efoy*



davidcampervanstuff said:


> The cartridge is replaced every time that the fuel is replaced, preventing any contamination of the methanol from the eventual escape of chemicals from the materials of the plastic container itself. The container is approved and tested for it's purpose.
> 
> David


So the cartridges have self life then?

Ian


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

*Re: efoy*



olley said:


> davidcampervanstuff said:
> 
> 
> > The cartridge is replaced every time that the fuel is replaced, preventing any contamination of the methanol from the eventual escape of chemicals from the materials of the plastic container itself. The container is approved and tested for it's purpose.
> ...


They do, but they have ample shelf life: an expiry date is printed on every cartridge; generally though it is about two or three years ahead to judge by the dates printed on the cartridges which I use personally. Naturally it will be related to the date of manufacture although this is not on the cartridges.

Recently I asked SFC, on behalf of a customer, whether he should use an expired cartridge which he had obtained (I don't know where from) - answer below:

"Please don't allow the customer to use the methanol. Between us it probably won't be a problem but the date is there for a reason and this is due to the fact that methanol a corrosive liquid is and even the plastic with time will slowly deteriorate causing the methanol to become slightly impure with eventual negative consequences for the fuel cell."

David


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## Andysam (May 10, 2005)

...and we're told you can't refill those! Rubbish. 30% increase in price- rubbish!

This smacks of "We've got a customer base now, we haven't put the prices up for a while so we'll rump 'em for 30%"

Doesn't seem like a sound sales plan to me.

Mind you, I don't know why I'm bothered- I don't even have one :roll:


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

erneboy said:


> Ah well, probably not. Although they call it a cartridge really it's a 5 or 10lt plastic container just the same as the ones juice or anything else comes in. The only difference is that there is a little plastic device stuck in the neck to prevent spillage and possibly perform other functions. That little top is no more elabourate than a child proof top and I am sure costs no more. Calling the whole thing a "cartridge" is good marketing though, Alan.


Hello Alan,

But juice it is not and a juice container it is not.

No juice purveyor every put their product in a container like this one: Read about Efoy cartridges on SFC's website

And what's more you didn't mention the tube and float thingy inside each cartridge (sorry I don't know the purpose but it seems like it ensures that the methanol is always drawn from the top of the liquid level). mmm... expensive .. (compared to fruit juice anyway) ...

David


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## PaulW2 (May 30, 2010)

Andysam said:


> This smacks of "We've got a customer base now, we haven't put the prices up for a while so we'll rump 'em for 30%"


I'm sure that's broadly correct. They have a monopoly and a customer base. Their business argument will no doubt be that they should charge whatever they think they can get away with.

Their costs associated with the cartridges must, as we have seen, be negligible. Their pricing structure cannot realistically follow a 'markup on costs' - type argument and must instead be a 'what will our price-insensitive customer base wear' (because if they can pay £ 3 k for the base unit, they will pay for the fuel...).

Paul


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

Andysam said:


> ...and we're told you can't refill those! Rubbish. 30% increase in price- rubbish!
> 
> This smacks of "We've got a customer base now, we haven't put the prices up for a while so we'll rump 'em for 30%"
> 
> ...


For a moment there I thought that we might be discussing UK energy prices which are ever escalating - and they don't even have to provide us with fresh gas pipe or electricity wires for every re-supply, nor transport it across Europe in individual containers.

Unfortunately I do have said pipes and wires (oh, and an Efoy too ...)

David


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

PaulW2 said:


> Andysam said:
> 
> 
> > This smacks of "We've got a customer base now, we haven't put the prices up for a while so we'll rump 'em for 30%"
> ...


Hello Paul,

I don't know where you can possibly have 'seen' that the costs of the cartridges 'must be negligible'. I have been posting here with a number of comments drawing attention to the fact that these cartridges are not ordinary (as in juice) containers; and that there is a high transport costs for the class of product.

I don't think that we have ever sold an Efoy to a 'price-insensive' customer; only to customers who have carefully weighed up the advantages of the Efoy for their own particular circumstances and decided that the price is worth it, even though it is a heavy price for them. I also don't know of any of our customers who regret buying their Efoy.

The bottom line is that if SFC's product is so easy to produce and so overpriced as some people seem to think, then we'd be swamped with cheaper competitor offerings. If they have a monopoly then surely they have earned it; it would be nice occasionally to hear praise for the achievements of enterprises which are successfully providing products like this thanks to their own drive.

David


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

spatz1 said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> > Ah well, probably not. Although they call it a cartridge really it's a 5 or 10lt plastic container just the same as the ones juice or anything else comes in. The only difference is that there is a little plastic device stuck in the neck to prevent spillage and possibly perform other functions. That little top is no more elabourate than a child proof top and I am sure costs no more. Calling the whole thing a "cartridge" is good marketing though, Alan.
> ...


Another way of making comparisons which are not like-for-like: guess what liquid product would cost you £122.66 for 10 litres? It is used by many motorhomers and caravaners yet how can the cost be justified when it only has a very plain (juice-like?) container? And what's more, there are no special requirements for safety or convenience and the worst that might happen if you spilled it is that you would smell nice (err, not)?

Could it be that it's a small container with a heavy product inside and a high unit costs of production and transport (and yes, someone has to make a profit too, from manufacturer to distributor to retailer)?

And it is ....

Much more expensive than Methanol product ..

David


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Hello David, I am sorry to disagree but I am sure the container is just a cheap plastic 5 or 10lt one the floaty thing is a pickup pipe and the device on the lid is simple. I have had one apart.

In my opinion the cost of this container and it's extra bit is a couple of pounds maximum.

There are identification marks on the container which I used to trace it and found this: http://www.ampulla.co.uk/Shop-For-P...tural-Stackable-&-Din51-TE-Cap/p-170-112-453/

It may be that these are not exactly the same but they are approved for hazardous chemicals. OK not quite juice containers but nothing very special even so, Alan.

Edit: I am sorry if I have annoyed you David. I appreciate that your original post was intended to save us a few pounds. I know you don't set Efoy's fuel prices.


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## PaulW2 (May 30, 2010)

Sorry David, your arguments don't really work. The plastic containers are cheap. The methanol is cheap. And the provider has a monopoly.

Whether they have a monopoly because they are so clever, or because once there is a single provider the entry hurdle for followers is too high, is not the point.

The fact is that they have a monopoly.

And in their position pricing is a function of what the market will wear in the absence of competitors. That is just a fact. They are a business, not a charity.

The argument is therefore a variant of 'what can we get away with'. 

Of course the consumer is price insensitive. He has spent £ 3 k on the hardware. He will spend the required sum on the consumables.


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Why don't you Efoy users club together and get an "exact" analysis of the Ethanol, then source it from another supplier.  

tony


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

It is only fair to note that Lab Grade Methanol is a great deal more expensive than the stuff Efoy supply so it looks as though refining it is an expensive process, Alan.


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

erneboy said:


> Hello David, I am sorry to disagree but I am sure the container is just a cheap plastic 5 or 10lt one the floaty thing is a pickup pipe and the device on the lid is simple. I have had one apart.
> 
> In my opinion the cost of this container and it's extra bit is a couple of pounds maximum.
> 
> ...


Alan, you have not annoyed me at all. I am always interested in your posts as an actual Efoy user yourself. I am as dismayed at the price increase as anyone else but in reality only SFC will ever know the true costs of the product as it is delivered, and what the profit levels are.

I once had a discussion with a SFC person who told me that they did not regard the fuel as a profit generator on its own, but more as a necessary service in order to further their true business which is the fuel cells themselves. The ongoing production and filling of the fuel cartridges is actually contracted out to a third party, I was told.

David


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

PaulW2 said:


> Sorry David, your arguments don't really work. The plastic containers are cheap. The methanol is cheap. And the provider has a monopoly.
> 
> Whether they have a monopoly because they are so clever, or because once there is a single provider the entry hurdle for followers is too high, is not the point.
> 
> ...


And then of course it could be said that all motorhome owners are price-insenitive: after all they most likely have spent £-tens-of-thousands on their pride and joy, and so they continue to spend whatever the fuel companies can get away with on the necessary consumable, the fuel.


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## PaulW2 (May 30, 2010)

I think that's largely true David. When fuel prices increase we tend to accept it. Some will travel a bit less, but many will just pay more. 

But the price of diesel is a much bigger item in the cost of running a motorhome - on a per day or per trip basis - than the Efoy fuel cell.

So for a given level of impecuniousness the fuel price will modify the behaviour of motorhome owners before the price of the fuel cartridge modifies the behaviour of the Efoy user.


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