# Ignorance of the law is no excuse - Yes but what is it?



## andrewball1000 (Oct 16, 2009)

.. or "When is a Van Not a Van"?

I spent yesterday on a "Naughty Boys Course"  for being photographed doing 35mph in a 30mph area. Of course no one on this forum has ever done that! :wink:

This was in a car, not a MH. Despite my initial misgivings, this course was excellent and also saved me 3 points on my licence. I recomend it, but don't speed up just to go to one.

We were told by the instructor that we would all learn something, and she was right. Apart from the devastating news that I no longer needed to have a person with a red flag walking in front... we dealt with the topic of speed limits for Single & Dual carriageways and Motorways.

I know about HGVs and cars towing but the instructor talked about the 10mph difference for Vans. So Oliver Twist raised his hand and asked is a MH classed as a van? ie Take a panel van and cut a few windows out and add a bed and and??

After some embarrassment the (seriously) qualified tutors said that they didn't know. An honest answer was fine by me. I had been under the impression that I am the same as a car, but this has caused me to check again with Mr Google. I am not that wiser after.

This is just one of many links http://www2.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/speedmanagement/vanspeedlimits.html

Any help would be appreciated. All answers on a postcard to AA Drivetech care of Thames Valley Police etc etc.


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## tony645 (Sep 26, 2010)

I always assumed mine was a van and the 10mph rule applied. pro rata the 90kph on the autoroutes, helps that I`m a tight bugger and like to eek out the mpg.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Those speed limits apply to "Goods" vehicles and any vehicle that has "motorcaravan" shown as it's description on the V5 is not a goods vehicle.

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-speed-limits.shtml

So far as I know a 3.5 tonne goods vehicle also requires a different class of MOT from a 3.5 tonne "Motorcaravan" which only requires the same class of MOT as a car.

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-mot.shtml

Unless, apparently, you carry anything you do not "need" for "living".


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## andrewball1000 (Oct 16, 2009)

Stanner said:


> ... Unless, apparently, you carry anything you do not "need" for "living".


so cases of red wine for my own consumption is essential to living and OK then! :lol:

Thanks Stanner, your links do clarify it


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

As far as I am aware the speed limit changes when the unladen weight is in excess of 3050kg.
Gerry


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## andrewball1000 (Oct 16, 2009)

GerryD said:


> As far as I am aware the speed limit changes when the unladen weight is in excess of 3050kg.
> Gerry


Hi Gerry, yes that agrees with text in Stanners 1st link


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## lesanne (May 1, 2008)

Hey.....you finally found out that ....SHE... the instructer was right after all..................


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I wonder what the cost of these 'courses' are just to save some points?

Ray.


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## andrewball1000 (Oct 16, 2009)

lesanne said:


> Hey.....you finally found out that ....SHE... the instructer was right after all..................


Please don't bring sexism into this topic. It is unnecessary and inappropriate. If you have a feminist axe to grind, please do it else where.

I did say that the course was excellent and delivered very well, that she was seriously qualified. She gives advanced driving instruction to police on road and skid pans. She was eminently qualified to give the course which I have acknowledged. I used to give training course myself so I have no problem working with women. They often have better ability with soft skills. SHE had both soft and practical which was great and one of the reason why I recommended the course. (content and delivery)

She was neither right nor wrong as she said that she did NOT know the answer to my question. I said I did not have a problem with that as it was a course about the dangers of speed and not about the Law.

This is why I have sought to find the answer to a serious question through Google and then this this forum.

Now I will go away and calm down.


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## andrewball1000 (Oct 16, 2009)

raynipper said:


> I wonder what the cost of these 'courses' are just to save some points?
> 
> Ray.


Hi Ray, the course was £95 vs a £65 fine and 3 points on your licence and the need to declare them on your next insurance quote. Worth it to me as I have three vehicles to insure, MH, car and scooter.

They say that Thames Valley police are trialing the course and if successful they may run it nationally

regards Andrew


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## ThursdaysChild (Aug 2, 2008)

Just a tiny correction..........

Thames Valley Police have been offering the alternative of a course for some years now. I know, because I opted for one about five years ago.

I cannot comment on today's course format, but mine was a total waste of time, most of which was spent on some pseudo-psychological analysis of all the naughty participants.

The cost was about £60. 20 bods on the course, run 3 times a day, seven days a week.
Do the maths and you will see why they are so keen to offer courses rather than have the tiresome business of fines, points and paperwork.


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## andrewball1000 (Oct 16, 2009)

ThursdaysChild said:


> Just a tiny correction..........
> 
> Thames Valley Police have been offering the alternative of a course for some years now. I know, because I opted for one about five years ago.
> 
> ...


Yes I have spoken with a number of people and these courses do seem to vary considerably. One participant had done one recently with another authority so should not have been allowed to do this one which says a lot for the success of her original course. Mine was good and worth it for me for the reasons I have given.

The content was local to Thames Valley and differs to friends who have attended other local ones previously, so maybe they are experimenting with content and delivery. It was an interactive course and there was a monitor sitting at the back on this one.


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## teamsaga (Feb 26, 2006)

Hi
I understand (possibly wrongly) that the reason the police like these courses is that they get to keep the the fees, but dont keep fines.


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## Kasey (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm attending one on Monday in Hertfordshire, although the offence took place in Sussex. Course cost - £85.

Hope mine is a good 'un and not a waste of time, although, as said, it saves three points on the licence.

The information provided stresses that although there is no 'test', participation is essential.

KC


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## Bill_H (Feb 18, 2011)

I don't think the speed limit is to do with the base vehicle, it's to do with windows. 
It used to be (may be still is) that the van speed limits didn't apply once windows (one sq. foot minimum?) were inserted each side behind the drivers position it ceased to be a van, and car speed limits applied.
The reduced speed limit for commercial vehicles kicks in over 2000kg laden weight. I have a small transit connect van with a gvw of over 2000kg and it's restricted to 60 on dual carriageways.


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## andrewball1000 (Oct 16, 2009)

teamsaga said:


> Hi
> I understand (possibly wrongly) that the reason the police like these courses is that they get to keep the the fees, but dont keep fines.


I am sure that you are right on that one. What better incentive to create a good course though. I am also sure that there have been some dreadful ones. Mine wasn't.

Many (including me) did learn something. I was was staggered by some of their questions. The video content could be made available nationally to good effect.


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## andrewball1000 (Oct 16, 2009)

Kasey said:


> Hope mine is a good 'un and not a waste of time, although, as said, it saves three points on the licence.
> 
> The information provided stresses that although there is no 'test', participation is essential.
> 
> KC


I hope so too. Even if not, think of the insurance/points benefit. Participation is unavoidable if they present it right.

regards Andrew


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## richardjames (Feb 1, 2006)

Forgive me if I am wrong but arn't commercial HGVs now governed to 56mph. I'm sure that I read somewhere that some chassis fitted to MHs were governed but could legally be changed 8O 8O


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## Hymervanman (Aug 20, 2010)

richardjames said:


> Forgive me if I am wrong but arn't commercial HGVs now governed to 56mph. I'm sure that I read somewhere that some chassis fitted to MHs were governed but could legally be changed 8O 8O


Correct about the HGV's being speed limited , however the Max speed that they can do on a single carriageway is 40 mph even if the National speed limit is in force- hence the huge queues that can build up behind trucks only doing 40 on a 60mph stretch


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## soundman (May 1, 2005)

Hi Andrew,
For a moment I thought you were going to send me the bill then I saw it was the car and not the scooter!.
Yes, there is one other person that got caught, me.
Did the course earlier this year but unfortunately I dont share the same enthusiasm about it..
Maybe the presentation and the team I was part of was the problem here.
Take care
Paul


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

Did mine in Leicester about 18 months back - same cost as the fine - £65.

It was astonishing to tot up the amount they're getting in for these courses (as calculated above) - 15 odd people on a course, 3 courses a day, 7 days a week, and these are just the ones who've been caught at around 35/36mph...

It was an entertaining and instructive event and the only query that several of us had was when the lecturer was challenged about advice on gears. He said that using no higher than 3rd in a 30mph zone and 4th in a 40mph zone would likely prevent speeding inadvertently. The challenge was over fuel efficiency. We have been advised generally to save fuel by going up through the gears as soon as possible. He insisted there was no fuel saving advantage in doing so.

I still go through the gears as quickly as I can!

Got done 6 months later in the MH in Suffolk - 36mph again but we swear there was no visible signage.

Harry


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## Seeker (Dec 26, 2005)

Oh, and on the topic! Got done in Turkey for assuming the MH was a car when Turkish law is that it's a van and subject to a lower limit! 

Different to the UK I think.

Harry


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## Jumbocruiser (Aug 22, 2010)

> Got done 6 months later in the MH in Suffolk - 36mph again but we swear there was no visible signage.


I understand that no signs are required.

The presence of a system of street lights, not more than 200yards apart implies a 30mph limit.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Jumbocruiser said:


> > Got done 6 months later in the MH in Suffolk - 36mph again but we swear there was no visible signage.
> 
> 
> I understand that no signs are required.
> ...


http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/9240

I'm not even sure it has to be 200yds just "street lighting"

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070304


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## Jumbocruiser (Aug 22, 2010)

Stanner said:


> Jumbocruiser said:
> 
> 
> > > Got done 6 months later in the MH in Suffolk - 36mph again but we swear there was no visible signage.
> ...


There are many references to the 200yard rule on the net but the only official one i can find is:this one on parliament.co.uk

It's all somewhat confusing because the highway code tells us to assume 30mph when there are streetlights unless the signs state otherwise.

But it seems that if the last sign you pass states, for example 40mph, but then the streetlights get closer together (less than 200yards), the limit becomes 30mph with no signs required.

The document linked to above also points out that 30mph repeater signs are prohibited on such roads.

So, keep an eye out for those streetlights...


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Jumbocruiser said:


> It's all somewhat confusing because the highway code tells us to assume 30mph when there are streetlights unless the signs state otherwise.
> But it seems that if the last sign you pass states, for example 40mph, but then the streetlights get closer together (less than 200yards), the limit becomes 30mph with no signs required.


UNLESS there are 40mph repeater signs to tell you the 40 limit continues.



> The document linked to above also points out that 30mph repeater signs are prohibited on such roads.
> 
> So, keep an eye out for those streetlights...


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