# LED's anyone?



## ojibway (May 9, 2005)

This is a reply I posted re pet hates in motorhomes. I thought it worth its own spot!

An issue I have is with the lights all the newer MHs have to have - HALOGEN!
OK, so they are cute and very "in" and who wants the old, dated strip lights (even though they are efficient and economical to run).
But the halogens produce more heat than light and gobble up power like nobody's business! (3 halogens = 1 lcd tv)
*LEDs* are the thing we all need. They use next to nothing and look good too. But they seem to be very expensive and the kinds we'd like are being taylored to the luxury boating fraternity. I believe you can get *LED* bulbs that'll just fit into the existing halogen socket, but its harder to find the ones that fit sideways.

Any thoughts or experience with these *LEDs*?? or know where to get hold of the replacements ( I use this word loosely as I believe they rarely need replacing with a life of some 50,000hr)


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

I'm not sure how acceptable these leds are, ojibway, so I'd like to do a 'back-to-back' test first, before I bought any. I know that a test was carried out on motorcycle led rear/brake lights, comparing them to the original, filament bulbs. The comparison was not favourable.

Have you seen these lights in action, and if so, how do you rate their performance?

(ojibway - American indian?)


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## ojibway (May 9, 2005)

Hi Barry,
Thats the problem. I haven't come across LEDs in use. I may fork out and try them myself - there is a US company that will supply them to me at $16 a piece for the bulb.

A rear light on a motorcylcle is looked at so only needs to light itself up, if you know what I mean. Many car rear lights use them now. A light, as we know it, needs to throw out a beam of light to light up an area in front of it. There are all sorts available in different colours and warm or cold white. They come in clusters of any number - 4, 8, 12, 32, etc. The closest thing I've seen that I may purchase to take to pieces, as they are very inexpensive, is the head-band light

I'll keep y'all posted when I try 'em out.

Mike


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## ojibway (May 9, 2005)

*Ojibway*

Hi again Barry,
didn't notice your question! Yes, well, Canadian Indian or First Nation in this case - I was involved with Indian artists, one of who's images I use as my avatar - Norval Morrisseau.
M


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## 95539 (Jun 24, 2005)

*Leds*

This site did LED replacements for normal bulbs - long time since I went on there and I think they were indicators, stop lights etc. : www.ultraleds.co.uk


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## ojibway (May 9, 2005)

Hey Gunk, thanks for that. Have you tried any of these?


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Thanks, ojibway. It may have been that the leds on the m/cycle rear lights were too omni-directional, giving insufficient light sideways? Whatever, I think the only way to proceed is to 'suck-it-and-see', as apart from being of the wrong power, the light given off may be too 'cold'. But the difficulty may be getting one that's not too powerful - it could be like sitting in an operating theatre! 8O

I look forward to your observations.


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## 95813 (Jul 21, 2005)

Hi, 
I'm new to the forum and not introduced myself properly but as this topic is "close to home" I thougtht I'd jump in. I've just completed re-wiring my house and I have used LED lighting in places here's my experience.

The light is a little "blue" although I've used two types and the newer ones are much whiter. The light is alway's rather cold and benefits from "balancing" with something warmer - e.g. halogen 

Most of the lamps I've seen are highly directional, this can be good or bad depending on what you are trying to achieve.

I think they would be great for motorhomes as the current draw is a fraction of flourescent lights - ideal to preserve batteries (I can "mood" light my bedroom on 1.6w!!). You would possibly need more fittings, i.e. if you just replace your halogens with LEDs you will probably not have enought light in your MH

I don't want to ramble too much here but if you're really interested in LED lighting drop me a note. 

Cheers 

R


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Hi ojibway. As a result of Gunk's post, I contacted Robert Bennett at Ultraleds Ltd.

He is sending me one of the new Mr16 halogen-replacement bulbs to try, FOC. He says that they are classed as "Warm White" and don't have the usual Blue colour of white leds. 
He goes on to say "Also they are safe up to 15V. Most other 12v Led Bulbs bulbs fry when more than 12v applied to them - they just look brighter for a short time then fail early."

I will post my findings about these new bulbs totally independent of this company, but I must say that Robert Bennett of Ultraleds seems to have extreme confidence in his product, and a good business attitude. Let's hope these leds are as good as he says they are.

I asked Ultraleds if there might be a discount for MHF members, but this wasn't answered. I'll mention it again after reporting on the bulbs.

*Ojibway* - if you PM me your postal address, I wll forward this FOC led bulb to you after I've had a chance to test and compare it. Then perhaps you could do the same? That way we'll hopefully present a balanced view of these. Maybe you'd care to pass the bulb on to *Gunk* and *Russki* for their evaluation, too?


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Thanks for your input, Russki, particularly since I now notice you don't yet have a motorhome (never a bar to being a member of MHF!)


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## 88726 (May 9, 2005)

hi guys

found these on ebay , about 5.50 each , possibly the same type you require ?

click here


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Thanks, kenny&stella, but further into their site are these, which are the ones Ultraleds are selling and recommend (Mr16):
http://tinyurl.com/9scyg


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## ojibway (May 9, 2005)

Thanks all for the great responses!
Russki, that sounds interesting, using leds in your home. You see lots of outdoor leds for decks etc but they are not desinged to supply light, only to accent areas. So your use of leds as light sources is very useful. Have you bought whole fitting with leds or have you put leds into fittings originally for halogen?


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## 95813 (Jul 21, 2005)

Hi Ojibway,
It's the latter.. I used GU10 fittings which (as you guessed) usually are for 240v Halogen lamps, but fitted LED lamps. I put a considerable number of these fittings in near the walls so that they "wash" down and reflect into the room. It is quite pleasant for watching TV. You do need additional light for reading.

Also my earlier post should have read 12w not 1.6w - Caught out copy and pasting :?

To get this away from my house and back to MotorHomes - I saw a site offering a < 12V 24 WARM WHITE LED STRIPBAR > looks like a really interesing solution to low power lighting. this site wants way too much money for them but you could rig up something similar yourself. If I ever manage to get enough cash together for a MH this is exactly the kind of tinkering I would enjoy wasting my time on :lol:


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## Old_Adventurer (May 13, 2005)

Following on from what others have posted about LED lights, I was in B&Q at the weekend and they have LED light units for £12.99, which sounds quite reasonable for an everlasting lamp. They are for recessed fixing, and are about 1½ inches in diameter, with about a dozen LEDs, rated at 12 volts. They also sell the appropriate 230/12volt transformers for these lights. Unfortunately the output of the transformer just says 12v, nothing about whether it is a stabilised power supply or not, so the lights may work OK at 12v or 12.5v, but what about when connected to a M/H battery that is connected to a charger. The voltage then might be over 15v, and they won't last too long before burning out.
One possibility is to fit a suitable dropping resistor in series with the lights to bring the voltage down to 12v, or alternatively replace the inbuilt resistor with something lower, and incorporate a Zener diode voltage stabiliser so that they never get over voltage.
I havn't got a M/H (yet!), so I am not in a position to experiment. Incidentilly you could install the lights in the M/H running on mains electricity. The transformer has socket for up to 5 lights to be connected, each light having 3 metres of flex attached. Unfortunately running on mains wouldn't be much good for extending the charge of the leisure battery.
Has anyone tried these light units? With less LEDs than the American plug-in "bulbs" they wouldn't be as bright (?good thing?).
As to the issue of the light being too cold, how about painting one of the many LEDs with a bit of red paint. Would that help to "warm" the light up a bit.
Just a thought..........


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## 89122 (May 14, 2005)

Hi these are the lamps for my internal lights in place of halogen.

>>>>>>>>>>>Click Here<<<<<<<<<<<


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

As good as his word, Robert Bennett of Ultraleds sent me the larger of the two led bulbs that he recommends for motorhome use.

I tried it in conjunction with my halogen lamps.

The brightness of these leds is superb, more than enough to read by, though I think you would need several for a 'spread' of light, but they are easily as bright as the halogens.

The colour temperature however, was a wee bit disappointing, especially as these are 'warm white' versions. The light was very akin to the fluorescent tubes I also have fitted, but certainly not 'blue' like normal so-called 'white' leds.

These bulbs are safe up to 15volts. Mr Bennett points out that "Most other 12v Led Bulbs bulbs fry when more than 12v applied to them - they just look brighter for a short time then fail early." That's not the case with these bulbs.

These bulbs are Mr16, which is the the larger size of reflector. If you have a smaller light fitting, then the Mr11 is the bulb you need.

Each lamp has 30 leds, has an output of 20 watts, yet consumes only *1 watt* of power!!!

If you need to conserve energy, particularly if you motorhome during the winter months, a set of these bulbs could be the answer for you.

I can heartily recommend them, subject to the above caveat re colour temperature. See the bulb here:
http://tinyurl.com/bwvfp

*Robert Bennett*, of http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/ is the guy to speak to, on this number *0871 7110413*. Discounts are available for purchases of over 10 bulbs.

(I have no connection with Ultraleds, and will not retain the bulb he sent me for testing)


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"has an output of 20 watts, yet consumes only 1 watt of power!!! "

Barry,

You are going to be a very wealthy man indeed ......

I guess a word such as "equivalent" is missing ;-)

Dave


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Sorry Dave, I don't 'do' "Electrical Technical" - I just quoted from their website.
Well, I knew what I meant!


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## ojibway (May 9, 2005)

The LED subject is hotting up!!

Old_Adventurer's post about LEDs from B&Q is interesting. I often look out to see if they are comming onto the domestic market.

Looks like Barry is the lead researcher. Although I have not tried any out yet I have heard the issue over cold/warm light. Cold can be very clinical.

I hope to be trying the LED out that Barry has and will add my comments too.
Mike


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## ojibway (May 9, 2005)

Last night I had the chance to try out the LED that Barry sent me, which he had been sent by Ultraleds.
I was very impressed with the buld which I used in place of a halogen spotlight in the sleeping area. It is bright enough though a little on the cold/blue side. Both Annie and I have been annoyed with the over-bright halogen spotlights.
The two bonuses using LEDs are that you aren't getting fried - they can give off a lot of heat, and the fact they use so little power.
I think that I will be changing the lot very soon!

So, thats a big 'thumbs up' for LEDs


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## 89122 (May 14, 2005)

Perhaps we should all buy in one order to get a discount, I need 10 of these >>>> G4 (Capsule) 12V AC/DC 21 Led Warm White Led Bulb .
Eddie


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

Has anyone road-tested these bulbs in their van for any length of time yet ? I'd be interested in how they got on.

We'd like to fit them to our van before winter.

G.


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

I'm afraid I can't add anything to my previous posts, Grizzly.

Perhaps you could be the first to "take the plunge" and buy a set?  

If you do, let us know how you get on. Ultraleds would seem to be a reasonable firm to start with - an interested and supportive boss who is as good as his word.


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## ojibway (May 9, 2005)

Hi,
I ordered the LEDs from ultraleds, some 16 all together. Got two in the post. They have to order more. Its the G4s I haven't tried out. They are the side mounted halogen replacements.
So, the jury's still out!
Mike


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## klex20 (May 1, 2005)

And for tayloring your own lights, warmwhite LED:s can be bought here:
http://www.led1.de/shop/index.php?cPath=3_34

Buy LED:s with the strongest light (most bang for the bucks!), you can always dim it with a bigger resistor or fewer LED:s. :wink:


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## 88966 (May 11, 2005)

Watch out, those on the last website appear to be 3,4 v ????


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## klex20 (May 1, 2005)

BillD said:


> Watch out, those on the last website appear to be 3,4 v ????


Yes, and....?


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## 88966 (May 11, 2005)

Just a word of warning in case anyone assumed they were 12 v !


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## klex20 (May 1, 2005)

Yes Bill, see what you mean but these LED's are only the inmate in the lamps you can buy readymade for 12V.
The LED's are interconncted in series and/or parallel with or without current limiting resistors and some math, however simple, is needed to get those LED's lined up properly inside the 12V lamp.

For example, if three of these 3,4V diodes are connected in series, they should be driven by 10,2V max. If connected to 12V, the combination is going down south immediately.
With a series resistor of 91 Ohms included, the three 3,4V LED's will however light up just fine at 12V and about 20mA.
The three LED's will in this circuit (with the 91 Ohm resistor) function up to about 12,9V where the max allowed LED current of 30mA is reached. 
There is a spread in component values and border units might exist so use care. Do not use battery chargers with home brew LED lamps unless the lamp circiut is designed for that or the lamp supply is regulated and when buying readymade 12V LED lamps, check out the max allowed voltage!


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## 88966 (May 11, 2005)

Hi klex20,
That's a good write-up and will help those who are not leccies.


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## klex20 (May 1, 2005)

BillD said:


> Hi klex20,
> That's a good write-up and will help those who are not leccies.


Thank you Bill (humbly twisting and scraping with my foot)!


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

That's what's so good about the Ultraleds bulb - Robert Bennett at Ultraleds Ltd. says about his product 
"Also they are safe up to 15V. Most other 12v Led Bulbs bulbs fry when more than 12v applied to them - they just look brighter for a short time then fail early." 
So as klex20 says, something to watch out for with other leds.


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## 96414 (Oct 1, 2005)

Hi

IMHO Better than using the resistor would be add another LED, this will give you extra light instead of wasting it on heating a resistor. This gives a 13v average and will easily take the extra from charging. In thirty plus years of playing with LED's I find you have to seriously overvoltage a single LED to burn it out. Any group of LED's will take that extra voltage spread between them no problem.


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## klex20 (May 1, 2005)

temporary said:


> Hi
> 
> IMHO Better than using the resistor would be add another LED, this will give you extra light instead of wasting it on heating a resistor. This gives a 13v average and will easily take the extra from charging. In thirty plus years of playing with LED's I find you have to seriously overvoltage a single LED to burn it out. Any group of LED's will take that extra voltage spread between them no problem.


Yes, you can do that - and if you are gaining light - thats nice!
But you are now coming down from the second grade, are you not?


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## 96414 (Oct 1, 2005)

Hi Klex


Quote Klex

But you are now coming down from the second grade, are you not? 

End quote

I am not sure what you mean by this could you clarify?

Regards

George


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## klex20 (May 1, 2005)

Oh George, that was unclear, sorry! 
After your 30 years with LED's I am convinced that you have climbed up to the second class/grade/level of the LED school for shure and left us, or at least me, on the entry level!  
Have to be more careful with my language, eh?


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

We've just road tested LED lighting in the habitation area ( white, bayonet fitting , 9 LED replacement bulbs ) over the past two nights.

We will not be using them while the van is on hook up and will stick to the ordinary spots then. The LED light is reasonably bright and can be used for reading but is rather stark for normal use and not very cheerful. 

If we wild camped a lot and were worried about battery drain then we could live with them, probably supplemented by fluorescents, but we would not choose to do so otherwise . They do have the advantage of being cool, something the others are not -which is an advantage on hot nights.

We'd be interested to hear the opinions of others.

G.


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## ojibway (May 9, 2005)

Hi again,
I've just fried my first LED!
This is the MR16 replacement spot that UltraLed sent to Barry who kindly sent it on to me to try out. I hadn't been away 'til now so hadn't given it a proper go.
Anyway, I was on electrical hook-up (the van, not me!), had left the LED spot on when I noticed it was flashing erratically. When I looked closer I saw it was sparking inside and giving off smoke! Half the leds in the unit had stopped working.
So, that's it, I guess!
I still have a smaller G4, side mounted LED in place and will monitor this.
I appreciate Klex20's instructions on Leds but, though it makes sense it doesn't mean much to me as I'm ignorant on many things but especially electrickery.
I do know that the vans electrics fluctuate when on hook-up, surging every 5 to 10 seconds. Is this normal? If that is so then maybe a voltage regulator should be incorporated at the source end of the lighting system?!
Look forward to further comments re leds!!
Mike


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## klex20 (May 1, 2005)

Quote ojibway: ".................._I do know that the vans electrics fluctuate when on hook-up, surging every 5 to 10 seconds".............._ End quote.

If you accidently connect your 230V charger to the output of the inverter (230V) for charging the battery to wich the inverter is connected you might get that pumping fenomena. Yes, done that...  
It's like lifting your self in the hair - the battery will use power from itself to charge itself.

Don't know how your 230V system is wired - if there is some automatic switching done when on hookup you might have to check the system or otherwise move the charger from the inverter 230V output to the hookup 230V.
Just guessing here....


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## ojibway (May 9, 2005)

I have only been using the LED plugged straight into the spot light fitting and been on 240v hook-up. It hasn't been used through an inverter. The fluctuation occurs every time I'm on hook-up, all lights brighten and dim.
mike


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## klex20 (May 1, 2005)

ojibway said:


> I have only been using the LED plugged straight into the spot light fitting and been on 240v hook-up. It hasn't been used through an inverter. The fluctuation occurs every time I'm on hook-up, all lights brighten and dim.
> mike


Then an ordinary fault search has to be done, when on full hook-up disconnect the appliances and lamps one by one to se wich unit is making trouble. 
Start with the charger...


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## klex20 (May 1, 2005)

Anyone interested in designing with LED's - primarily for connecting to 240V - might have a look here:
http://www.hansen-neon.de/englisch/index.php

They got universal power supplies (current generators for 25 mA) for LED tubes - number of LED's does not matter - and also a design program called LEDSOFT. :wink:


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Mike - sorry to hear about the demise of that lamp. Perhaps send it back to UltraLeds and see what their comment is? It may be that the unit was faulty, and the guy at UltraLeds can confirm that. On the other hand, the lamp may have been OK - you may have been pumping 10,000volts through it!!! 8O 

I think Grizzly has probably got the balance right. Although these 'warm white' leds are better than the older 'cold blue' ones, Grizzly's right that they are still 'cool'. So use them 
1. to save battery power when that's important, and
2. to keep the heat down on those stifling nights.

Otherwise the appearance of halogen is more pleasant than leds.

My guess is that leds will continue to improve, and the 'coldness' issue will eventually be resolved.


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## ojibway (May 9, 2005)

I think you are right there, Barry, they will improve. Trouble with having two systems is just that: two systems. Two sets of reading lights, two sets of cabin lights, etc.
I shall do some more investigating into my electrics and shall also return the freebee to Ultrled for their inspection.
Mike


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