# Fitting/ epilepsy in dogs



## lindyloot (May 20, 2007)

Hi, has any one had experience or knowledge of this. Last night Otto had several odd moments, as if he was clicking his tongue, throthy slober and then running around like a tasmainian devil. These periods were over very quickly and lasted less then a minute. They seemed to occur every 2hours. I took him to the vet, after telephoning them at 10'clock this morning. After a good examination (heart and temperature good) advise was take him home and keep an eye on him, ring if they get worse. He had another small attack just before one o clock, then at four o clock he had a full blown fit. We took him back this evening They have taken some blood and given him an injection ( diazepan),also have four doses of it to put where the sun don't shine should he have another full blown fit. Should have the results of the blood test tomorrow afternoon.
Have spoken to the breeder she aswures me there is no knoeledge of this in his pedigree and none of his litter have reported anything. Also spoken to the breeder who is the owner of his father and she has'nt had a dog with this in all her years of breeding and owning German Shepherds. She did have something interesting to say though. It has been known for puppies to have this type of reaction to their vaccinations and it can manifest itself after 6 weeks or so. It is 8 weeks since his final jab. Apparently it is the distemper part that can have this effect. I hope he will grow out of this, still should have a better idea tomorow. Lin


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Jake has had one episode three weeks or so ago (a few days after two sedations at the vet for another problem) seems OK now but we are watching him closely. He's 12 so not likely to be the same problem as with your dog. Hope all goes well for Otto.


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## lindyloot (May 20, 2007)

Hi Frank, hope Jake is okay. I think Rich will be very annoyed if the injection has caused it , then have to pay the vet to put it right.Thank goodness for insurence. Lin


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## 118286 (Nov 18, 2008)

Hi Our first gsd suffered his first fit at about a year old he was treated by the vet with phenobarbitone he still lived till he was 12 years old with very few more fits. I don't think phenobarbitone is available now but there is a substitute the vets use regards squiggle


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## dodger148 (May 9, 2005)

Not heard that GSD's suffer from epilepsy but I do know Dalmations suffer and they seem to get treated on similar drugs to humams same as squiggles dog. 

Our Daly's were ok, but I have seen a couple that suffered and like humans understand some fit more than others and can in some cases grow out of epilepsy as do humans. 
Dont know if when they appear to have grown out of fitting they are really in remission. I am sure there is someone on here with greater knowledge than me will be able to give you
more information.
I do hope he settles down (dont like dogs being ill - they cant explain like humans) just give him love and try to aviod him getting excited


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## Waleem (Nov 1, 2006)

One of our Greyhounds started to have fits about a year ago. The vet tried various medications over the 12 months and she would go weeks without fitting. Problem was, when she DID fit, it was increasing in severity. In July she had an episode of many fits together which needed a trip to the emergency vet and hospitalisation (At GREAT expense) but seemed to be much improved. Unfortunately in August the same thing happened again-VERY violent fits, running into walls etc. At this time, we had decided with great sadness that enough was enough. We took her to the emergency vet who put her to sleep. She never came round from that last fit.
Both the vets (Our own and the emegency one) said that they have never seen epilepsy in Greyhounds before-our local branch of the Greyhound trust (who see thousands) agreed. We were just the unlucky ones.

I hope that your dog can be medication controlled if it is general epilepsy-I believe that a lot can-but I would strongly advise you to discuss options should it get worse for both yours and your Dog's welfare. We were glad we had decided our course of action in advance which made it a little easier to say goodbye when the time came.

I'm sorry if this seems negative, but it was an awful experience which started along the lines you mention. I really do hope that your dog is OK.


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## lindyloot (May 20, 2007)

Thankyou for all your replys.
Waleem so sorry to hear about your epispdes, we have decided if this goes up the ricter scalein fits and is uncontrolable that the best course would be to have him put to sleep. Hopefully this will not be needed.

Since last night he has had 7 more petit mal ones. One of these was in the car on the way to work, good job Rich was driving as when he comes out of this type he goes balistic. I managed to keep him on the back seat. After telephoning the vet I had to put two does of Diaipam in his bum  
He is now sleeping, but dosent like either of us leaving him . I am hoping its a case of getting worse before it gets better, we are still investigating whether the puppy vaccination is the cause.
Lin


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## andybodoyd (Oct 6, 2009)

Our yellow lab had a fit at 7 months old,didn't fit again for about 8 months but then started to have increasing fits till she was having one every couple of weeks with the fits lasting from a couple of minutes to up to 5 minutes. Started on Epiphen (phenobarbitone) and hasn't fitted since ( 8 weeks). Watching your dog fitting is a horrible experience.Think I have read that as well as vaccinations flea treatments can reduce the threshhold for a dog to fit!


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## KeiththeBigUn (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Lindyloot,

I am so sorry to hear about Otto. 
 

I do have some experience of a fitting dog. Sadly not a good news story though, so I am sorry in advance as it may not be what you want to hear. We had a Cavalier King Charles (Josh) who fitted throughout his life although at first only minor fits/seizures which the vet said were unfortunately quite common in the breed. We had him seen by various vets hoping for a different diagnosis to no avail. As he got older his fits got worse and they went form what we called his funny five minuets to lasting longer and longer. The vet said that he did not think that Josh could feel the fits and he would not be in too much discomfort. When he was not fitting he was a perfectly normal dog and a great family pet. Still nothing the vet could do until one day we were woken by the sound of him crying out in a very strange way, almost liie he was barking in his sleep. This was maybe 6am on Sunday morning. When I go t to him he was having a major fit/seizure. We took him to the out of hours vet in Martock where they sedated him to make him comfortable. Unfortunately for all of us though he did not survive as his little heart gave out on him when they tried to bring him off the sedation.  

Josh was only 9 years old and this was eight years ago now and he is still missed by all of us. He was one of the very first dogs to travel through the tunnel on the pet passport scheme, (we still have his certificate to prove it!  ) a pioneer in his own lifetime! 

I do hope that Otto gets sorted and it all ends well. :wink: 

Keith


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## lindyloot (May 20, 2007)

Hi Keith ,I am finding more and more of fitting and epilepsy in dogs . I found this article on the internet,thought it was very good in explaining the subject and possible causes.

Alterative vet

Link appears not to be working

Lin


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## iconnor (Nov 27, 2007)

*Epilepsy*

No experience of epilepsy in dogs, but loads of experience with my son.
A couple of points.
1. Diazepan, this is to "knock out" the patient to prevent the seizure or series of seizures from continuing and getting stuck as a pattern in the brain and becoming continuous.
2. There are many other drugs other than phenobarbitone available these days, ask about others for continuing treatment.
3. The crying out/strange bark that has been mentioned is usually caused by a strong exhalation partially blocked by the seizing of the neck muscles (try breathing out hard while tensing your neck muscles and you will understand).

Although my son's epilepsy remains uncontrolled and morphs slightly over time he is down to +/- 1 fir per day.


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## lindyloot (May 20, 2007)

Hi iconnor, thankyou for the info. Otto has had 15 petit mal and 2 grand mal fits since the early hours of yesterday morning. He has had three separate doses of diazipam which have not sedated him at all. The vet wants to try out some tablets containing phenobarbitone. We are still awaiting the results of the blood test.The vet has given us three options, try the tablets, if no joy from blood test do an MRI and a lumber puncture or put him to sleep. What we cannot understand is that he was perfectly normal dog untill the first fit. Now unless he falls asleep he will not calm down and is almost constaintly howling.


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## iconnor (Nov 27, 2007)

*Epilepsy*

If the diazepan hasn't knock him out then I would suggest that the dose is too low....it knocks my son out for several hours. However the vet should know the right amount.
Personally I don't see the point of the MRI scan, it will only offer some indication of the site within the brain where the activity is happening, and will only do that if you are lucky and catch the fit while he is in there, or he stays in a long time (very expensive). My son had an EEG which showed sub-clinical fitting (i.e. not visible outside his brain) every 15-30 seconds, didn't help much with setting the medication etc.
As for phenobarbitone, I would give it a try but ask about other drugs, they have come on a lot in the past 10 years.
It sounds like your dog is in great distress so I would not keep trying for the sake of it (yes I do have a dog).
My son's fits started suddenly when he was 14 months old.
Iain


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

So sorry to hear about Otto Lin. It must be awful for you.

I am afraid that there is epilepsy in GSD's. I used to own and breed them so I speak with some authority. Although my dogs did not suffer from that particular hereditary disease they did suffer from others which is why I no longer have the breed. 

Epileps varies from dog to dog so much. As far as I know there is no scientific evidence that vaccination or flea treatments cause siezures. I think that rumour comes from breeders trying to find a cause. Almost every disease in the dog will be put down to vaccination by some breeders. They are just in denial I am afraid.

My first GSD came from a much researched breeder. I took every precaution I could to make sure the puppy was from sound stock. It turned out this breeder had knowingly used a dog suffering from cryptorchidism (reteained testicle) and this manifested itself in my puppies later on. I was then approached by a top breeder to use my affected dog at stud! She defended herself by saying that she was only going to keep a bitch puppy from the litter and would sell the rest as pets. (For those who do not know a retained testicle can turn cancerous if not removed in time).

If it is any comfort it is thought that the dog is not aware of a seizure. Neither can they worry as we would. They just accept what life throws at them and get on with it. They may be confused or puzzled but that is about it. Howling is an instinct to call for help and may be a symptom of Otto's confusion. It may help to have a favourite toy or bed available at all times. A DAP diffuser may also help. If he is used to a crate he may feel safer in there?

I do so hope the medics find a cause and are able to offer a treatment.

Best Wishes

Pat


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## 118286 (Nov 18, 2008)

hi its squiggle again we did have a second dog who was from the same breeder unfortunatly he also suffered from epilepsy but he had major fits and sadly had to be put to sleep after a multiple fit that the vet could not bring him round from i know its horrible watching them in fits but by our experiance with the breed it is hereditory we now have 2 german shepards that are clear of fits but they had there vaccinations late about year old it took our vet ages to persude us to have them vaccinated because that is what we blamed it on you have our sympathy good luck with otto regards squiggle


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

andybodoyd said:


> Our yellow lab had a fit at 7 months old,didn't fit again for about 8 months but then started to have increasing fits till she was having one every couple of weeks with the fits lasting from a couple of minutes to up to 5 minutes. Started on Epiphen (phenobarbitone) and hasn't fitted since ( 8 weeks). Watching your dog fitting is a horrible experience.Think I have read that as well as vaccinations flea treatments can reduce the threshhold for a dog to fit!


I think your right about the flee control, our yorkydoodle use to fit. When I mentioned it to the German lady at the kennels we use to use, she said stop using the flee control. We did and our dogs fits reduce to very few in the following 6 year that he lived. The vets can treat the dog with Epanutin (phenytoin) 
Epanutin capsules, oral suspension and infatabs all contain the active ingredient phenytoin, which is a type of medicine called an anticonvulsant. (NB. Phenytoin is also available without a brand name, ie as the generic medicine.) Phenytoin is used to treat epilepsy and works by stabilising electrical activity in the brain.

wobby


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## iconnor (Nov 27, 2007)

*Epilepsy*

Any updates on Otto?
Iain


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## lindyloot (May 20, 2007)

Hi update on Otto. He had a fit last evening about 5.30, I had just come back after picking up his blood test results ( all clear) and 5 days worth of Epiphen.
We gave hime the first one at 5.45 yesterday. He did quieten down then had 2 fits around 7.45. He became a little bit snarly as he came round and turn into the tasmainian Devil. He had another grand mal at 11.20 pm. Then we have 9 hours fit free . When he woke in the morning he was very subdued and very causious of going down stairs and very clingy to me. He had two more in suscession a gend mal followed by a petit mal at 8.10 . We gave him the first dose of the day of his Epiphen,theat 10.20 he had another petit mal.

When I went to the vet last night I had a chat with him and is suggestion was try the tablets if it cut s the fitting down by half then thatis good if not to put him under a GA and do a fluid tap/sample. If that is clear refer him toa specialist for a second opinion and an MRI.
The vet feels that as he is so young (18weeks) to have so many that the prognosis is ot good. His fourth suggestion is euthanasia.

I can really feelfor any one who has to cope with epilepsy whether in a person or animal. Trying to cope is physically and emotionally draining and we have only had 3 days of it.
If otto is on tablets for the rest of his life at the moment I cannot se us going out in the MH for a very long time as it wouldnt be fair on him to have an attack in there.
Lin


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## 118286 (Nov 18, 2008)

hi when our oldest gsd came out of a fit he would not realise who we were and be very aggressive we could not get near him for about 2 hours when he did fully come round he would search the house to make sure it was still there and he hadnt done any damage he would also make sure we were safe our other gsd could have a fit and be perfectly ok even during fitting you could cuddle him we did feel cheated when the young one at four had to be put to sleep you feel robbed hope otto is ok on the pills

ps it was frightening when the older dog came round but we understood that it was also part of the fitting as my older brother suffered from fits so i did know a bit about human fits which helped we also noticed that certain household sprays also bought on fits i use very few chemicals around the dogs now more out of habit than anything else hope this might help to reassure you see how the fits settle down then decide about taking otto in the motorhome


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## iconnor (Nov 27, 2007)

I really hope the epephin works. Fingers crossed.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I do so hope that a cause of the seizures can be found. There are dogs that live many years on phenobarbitone. Hopefully Otto will be one of them. If that is the case there is no reason why he wouldn't be able to go away in the motorhome.

Please try to remember that the aggression is not a planned action. He is just reacting to his survival instinct. He feels vulnerable and reacts accordingly. If he was in the wild it would save him from predators. If he is in a safe place it is probably best to just leave him alone until her returns to his normal self. The less you are associated with his seizures the better your relationship will be.

Stay positive. Look after yourselves.

Pat


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## stewartwebr (May 27, 2005)

I hope Otto gets over this and is not suffering from epilepsy. If she is it’s not the end of the world.
We had a lovely Border Collie called Kim. We got her from a farm at 8 weeks old who suffered many medical conditions. One of those being idiosyncratic epilepsy, she had her first episode at around 11 months old. The insurance company paid a crazy amount of money for a CT scan to be carried out and for her to be examined by a neurologist. The diagnosis was epilepsy. She was place on phenobarbitone in an attempt to control the episodes. It’s extremely difficult trying to calculate the correct dosage, as it’s unlike other traditional medication where body mass can be used to give a key to dosage. It’s done in a rather hit or miss fashion unfortunately. 

Kim lived a normal happy life with the epilepsy being well controlled. We were assisted by our other dog at the time Jess. Jess for some unknown reason would sense when Kim was about to have a fit and alert us. In the 11 years we were lucky enough to have Jess the only time she ever barked in the house was a few minutes before Kim took a fit. We never did work out how she knew.

As said previously Kim was never a fit dog and unfortunately she took a large fit a few days before her 7th. birthday which she never came out of. However, we all had a lovely 7 years together where I think she enjoyed her time with us and we certainly loved her to bits..

I hope things work out for Otto. I’m a Medical Doctor and not a vet. However, if I can help answer any medical related questions or anything in relation to my experience of living with a dog with epilepsy, please do not hesitate to give me a shout.

Best Wishes,

Stewart


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Someone else has just told me a story very similar to Kim's where the dog had a long and happy life. Let's all hope that Otto has the same.

On the subject of dogs, like Jess, detecting epilepsy, there are dogs who are trained to do just that. They live with owners who suffer from epilepsy and will give an indication to their owner that a seizure is imminent so that their owner can get to a safe place.

Every time I think of this it makes me feel so humble. It also makes me really angry that an animal so in tune with us humans should sometimes be so abused by us.


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

patp said:


> Someone else has just told me a story very similar to Kim's where the dog had a long and happy life. Let's all hope that Otto has the same.
> 
> On the subject of dogs, like Jess, detecting epilepsy, there are dogs who are trained to do just that. They live with owners who suffer from epilepsy and will give an indication to their owner that a seizure is imminent so that their owner can get to a safe place.
> 
> Every time I think of this it makes me feel so humble. It also makes me really angry that an animal so in tune with us humans should sometimes be so abused by us.


You are so right

Wobby

sonny


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## lindyloot (May 20, 2007)

Update on Otto, he is on 60mg of Epiphen, we had a fit free evening but then he had one at 3 am and another at 7am this morning. Took another tablet at 8am and one at 8pm. He has now had nearly 14 1/2 hours fit free, but we are still on edge waiting for the next. We then get a phone call from Richards ex wife to say his son has had a fit and is in A & E Rich has jusst gone up there to see him and collect his motor bike( dont know any details yet. I'm at home as we daren;t leave Otto on his own.
They say things happen in 3's I wonder what;s next  
Lin


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Oh Lin I am so sorry to hear your news. You must not know which way to turn.

Let's hope that the medication works for Otto and that Rich's son is soon on his way to recovery. He is in the best hands.

Pat


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

All I can offer is a hug Lin


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## lindyloot (May 20, 2007)

Thank you Frank

Well we have had 24 hours fit free. At 7.20 this mornig Otto had a small siezure compared to the previous ones.i don't want to speak too soon but if the medication after 3 days can make such a dramatic change there is light at the end of the tunnel.  

Clayton , Rich's lad has been kept in hospital overnight, they want to do a CT scan. We shall be going to see him later today.
Lin


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## RedSonja (May 22, 2006)

Lin

Like Frank I can only Offer a hug as well. Take care and lets hope the corner has been turned. Love to all of you and lets hope Clayton is on the mend as well. Wish I could give the hug in person.

Sonja


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## KeiththeBigUn (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Lin,

I am pleased to read your latest post in that Otto has had a better day regarding his fitting! Let’s hope that he has turned the corner so to speak and the medicine is working. :lol: :lol: 


Keith


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## zulurita (May 9, 2005)

So sorry to read about Otto. I sincerely hope the medication is working. He looks such a cutie, it is heartbreaking to see our beloved pets suffer.

So get well soon Otto.


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## lindyloot (May 20, 2007)

Update on Otto, the medication seems to be working, he has had a couple of what i can only call trances/ daydreaming, then a run across the room. I think one of the side effects is manifesting itself, a foraious appetite especially when we are having something to eat, before the medication he would never try and climb on you when you are eating a meal or having a drink :twisted: 
When Muffie would see another dog either on the tv or when in the car , she would bark and Otto would copy, but now he doesn't show any interest.
I telephoned another vet today ( several people had recommended them to us) they specialize in GSD's. This is because we feel our vet hasn't time to explain things and is only interested in money. The new vet rang me back after surgery time had finished and was able to explain all the in's and out's of this, he seemed more caring and has experience of this condition ( our original vet hasn't even told me to come back and get some more medication) So Otto is going to see the new vet tomorrow evening


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

All sounds promising Lindy. 

I know from my behaviourist work that phenobarbitone interferes with the memory (used it for certain problems when we wanted to block a bad memory). You may find that Otto forgets certain behaviours. Of course these will be the ones you want him to remember not the ones you want him to forget :lol: 

Hope you and the new vet hit it off.  I mean form a good working relationship :lol:


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## littlenell (Aug 1, 2008)

I am sorry to read the news, I have had to research epilepsy for a friend whose dobe developed seizures, but unfortunately did not respond to the traditional medications.
I have seen a research trial offered to dogs with epilepsy based on medication working in human's. I know not everyone will feel this is appropriate so just offer it as an additional point to note...

http://www.rvc.ac.uk/CIC/Clinics/Epilepsy.cfm

There are additional things that some may consider such as a holistic vet, we use one in Bath who works traditional medicine alongside homeopathy/herbal. Also ttouch can help to calm and support the dog during stressful times.

Hugs to all from the nutter dobes...and their also nutty owner!


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## lindyloot (May 20, 2007)

Thanks littlenell for the info. It makes very interesting reading. at our next visit to our vet I will mention about the trial and see if Otto is suitable for a candidate. I hope your friends dogs are responding well to treatment.
Lin


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