# speeding



## metblue (Oct 9, 2006)

Hi to all,today i received a NIPS (notice of intended prosecution summons) notice from Northumbria police regarding me speeding in my Autotrail Chieftain. 
I was on cruise control at 56 mph when the roadside gatso camera flashed me ! now i know that with my vehicle i should only do 50 mph on "A" roads but as usual i was chancing my luck 50 mph +2 + 10% speedo error = 57mph.
Reason for this posting is not to quibble about the lovely coloured photograph of me speeding, i'm guilty as stated, no reason for the posting is to warm all of you that the gatso's are programmed to catch you because of you size,this also applies to truckers to, so spare them a thought when you come up behind then sitting at 50mph as they are only staying at the legal limit for them.
So watch out folks,"Big Brother" is watching you !!


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## Jented (Jan 12, 2010)

hi.
Thanks for the post,to ease your pain,as i have said before on another post,count the times you have,"Sinned",add up your fines,divide the fines by the "Sins",and Hey Presto,it should work out that each sin has cost....Pence. It always makes me feel better,but i have truly been a sinner,not just the speeding,so perhaps i have an advantage :wink: .
Gearjammer aka Sinner.
PS Better add. I do Not codone speeding,but,the more mileage you do,the greater the risk,its called "Law of averages".They had altered a 40 limit to 30 while i was away,when i saw a sign flashing "36" i knew something was wrong and dropped to 30,on the way back there were signs saying the new limit was 30,i had missed the signs at the other end stating this,close call.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

metblue said:


> Hi to all,today i received a NIPS (notice of intended prosecution summons) notice from Northumbria police regarding me speeding in my Autotrail Chieftain.
> I was on cruise control at 56 mph when the roadside gatso camera flashed me ! now i know that with my vehicle i should only do 50 mph on "A" roads but as usual i was chancing my luck 50 mph +2 + 10% speedo error = 57mph.
> Reason for this posting is not to quibble about the lovely coloured photograph of me speeding, i'm guilty as stated, no reason for the posting is to warm all of you that the gatso's are programmed to catch you because of you size,this also applies to truckers to, so spare them a thought when you come up behind then sitting at 50mph as they are only staying at the legal limit for them.
> So watch out folks,"Big Brother" is watching you !!


How does the camera differentiate between a Motor Caravan limited to 50mph on an A type road and one that can do 60mph on the same road?
A Motor Caravan with an UNLADEN weight of 3.05t or less has a speed limit of 60mph on A class roads irrespective of its MGW.
However the Gatso is programmed, whether to detect height, actual weight or whatever makes no difference to the fact that a Motor Caravan with an unladen weight of 3.05t or less would have been legal.


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## kaacee (Nov 29, 2008)

Perhaps it is programmed to read the number plate and cross reference with DVLA for maximum speed allowed before saying  

Keith


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Ray

Maybe he was on an A road . . . within a 30 limit! 8O :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Joking aside, Ray is right. It does sound a bit strange Metblue. Have you got a bit more information for us please.

It's a pretty sophisticated radar that can weigh an approaching vehicle. Must be more to it than at first appears.

Curious. :wink: 

Dave


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## darach (Dec 15, 2006)

Hi metblue
Truckers over 7500kg on A roads are only allowed 40mph but 99% do not keep to limit
Derek


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

This news certainly worries me.

My 5th gear is a bit high to use at 50 mph and so I travel at 55+ on single carriageways. At todays fuel prices I am not going to cane it in 4th. 8O 

I never slow down for the fixed cameras but will have to have a rethink (and get rid of that smug expressionj :lol: ).


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Zebedee said:


> Hi Ray
> 
> Maybe he was on an A road . . . within a 30 limit! 8O :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> ...


Dave, I am sure it does not detect the weight of the vehicle but its 'bulk' by sensors in the road surface and can therefore set the camera threshold to 60mph, 50 mph etc.
The picture will then be viewed back at base and a decision taken as to prosecute or not. A quick link to DVLA with registration number will not assist as it wil not show a Motor Caravans unladen weight which is the criteria for the maximum speed allowed.

In the Chausson Welcome range there were five models, three of which had an unladen weight of less than 3.05t and two which exceeded it. So three would be legal at 60mph in the OP's location.
One thing very interesting is that the 2012 Welcome range models have lost nearly 300kg of unladen [MIRO] weight from their 2011 ones due to the way the MIRO has now been standardised. This means that models that are exactly the same but different model years could have different speed limits.
Anyone who get flashed in similar circumstances as the OP should check the manufacturers MIRO weight and if less than 3.05t then fight the ticket as it is legally wrong.
The Police acknowledge the system is non-sensical and there was talk about a year ago of speed limits for Motor caravans being standardised to 65mph on motorways. This would be irrespective of their MIRO unladen weight. The situation is further confused because the MIRO figure, which is now standardised in line with an EC directive, is not the same as the legal definition of 'unladen' weight in UK law. 
Ray


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Speeding*

Hi

Goods vehicles upto 7.5t are ok for 50 mph on a national speed limit road. Is a 5000kg motorhome classed as a "goods vehicle" for this purpose or does the log book's "private heavy goods vehicle" change this?

Challenge it.

Russell


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Thanks Ray.

How common are these sensors in the road surface?

_(They must be expensive to install, which means they have to catch a lot of victims to make it worthwhile.)_

The speed limit doesn't bother me with our van, but if there is to be a greater purge on overloaded motorhomes (as I think I read on here) that could be a worry for a lot of us with those detectors around. 8O

Dave


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: Speeding*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> Goods vehicles upto 7.5t are ok for 50 mph on a national speed limit road. Is a 5000kg motorhome classed as a "goods vehicle" for this purpose or does the log book's "private heavy goods vehicle" change this?
> 
> ...


Russell
If registered as a Motor caravan in the V5c then the only criteria is with an unladen weight of 3.05t or less it is the same as for cars and if over 3.05t then 50 / 60 / 70 for Single carriageways / Dual carriageways / Motorways.
I suspect that the OP's Chieftain has an unladen weight greater than 3.05t so he is banged to rights.
Ray


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Zebedee said:


> Thanks Ray.
> 
> How common are these sensors in the road surface?
> 
> ...


Dave,
Weight sensors would make no difference as the Unladen Weight is the criteria for speed limits.
A motor Caravan with a MIRO of less than 3.05t can be as overloaded above its MGW but its speed limits will still be as for a car. [that is not to say it could not be prosecuted for overloading but that has nothing to do with speed cameras]. ray


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## Dougaitken (Aug 14, 2009)

*Speed Limits*

Hi

Rayc stated

A Motor Caravan with an UNLADEN weight of 3.05t or less has a speed limit of 60mph on A class roads irrespective of its MGW.

Can you please show where this is stated as fact on a Gov site.

I can only find suggestions on the Gov sites that the exception relates to vehicles under 2 tons.

I hope you are right but just want to see it in writing.

Doug


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## Westkirby01 (Jan 25, 2009)

I've always worked on the principle, over 3.5t = 10 mphs less than the regulated speed limit for normal road vehicles under 3.5t

If in my car, 
speed limit = OK
speed limit + 10% = warning
speed limit + 10% + 1 = points.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

3.05 tons unladen is the important bit as I understand it.

See the second table on this page for details: Speed limits

Alan.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: Speed Limits*



Dougaitken said:


> Hi
> 
> Rayc stated
> 
> ...


Doug, Perhaps 'A class' road is incorrect as it would apply to any single carriageway road, whether it be A, B or whatever as long as it was not subject to a speed limit of less than 60mph.

There are numerous but her is one from D & C Police. See the lower table. 
"Passenger vehicle, dual purpose vehicle, motor caravan (none of which exceed 3050kg unladen or 8 passenger seats).......

http://www.dcsafetycameras.org/education/carDrivers/index.aspx

or

http://www.motorhomeplanet.co.uk/motorhome-speed-limits/

or question 8 from CC advise leaflet

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/1022817/top-twenty-motor-caravanning-questions.pdf

Ray


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Metblue

pay your £80 course fee,

Albert said it was an excellent course , first offence in 51 yrs, he was doing 34 in a 30 zone

He was surprised by how much he didn't know 8O 

Every cloud has a silver lining 8O ---I think :roll:

Aldra


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

I set a camera of on the A68 with our van and I was doing 56MPH as well. I worked on the thought the camera would be set to at least 65MPH.

I was lucky though as I never heard anything.

Not sure how the camera knows what vehicle you are in but on the single bits on the A1 all the trucks slow down to 40 MPH going through them, they obviously have heard of drivers being done.

Try to keep to within 2MPH of the speed limits now when there are cameras about.


Richard...


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## Dougaitken (Aug 14, 2009)

*Speeding*

Thanks Rayc

It appears that all the data I looked at said Cars and did not say that that was a range of types up to 3050KG unladen. The confusion stemmed from the exception being Car based vans up to 2000kg MGW which were limited as cars. Sees a an odd difference between 3050 unladen and 2000 MGW.

Thanks again.

Doug


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: Speeding*



Dougaitken said:


> Thanks Rayc
> 
> It appears that all the data I looked at said Cars and did not say that that was a range of types up to 3050KG unladen. The confusion stemmed from the exception being Car based vans up to 2000kg MGW which were limited as cars. Sees a an odd difference between 3050 unladen and 2000 MGW.
> 
> ...


Doug, there are anomalies in speed limits. Why can a Motor Caravan, derived from a commercial van, have a higher speed limit than the van whilst weighing nearly twice as much? Ray


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

In the Northumbria Police area, the OP will be given the choice of a fine (was £60) or pay for a Driver Awareness Course. Same price but no points on the licence.

If he elects to take the course, I can give directions to it.   :lol:


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

I hadn't previously heard of cameras being able to differentiate by vehicle type / size but I know that new technology is being rolled out regularly. Is there any chance that the speed limit on that particular stretch had in fact been reduced to 50mph? Cameras and reduced speed limits go hand in hand, so to speak. Or did the NIP make specific mention of the vehicle's speed limit being restricted to 50mph on an A road because of its type and weight?


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## drcotts (Feb 23, 2006)

rayc said:


> metblue said:
> 
> 
> > Hi to all,today i received a NIPS (notice of intended prosecution summons) notice from Northumbria police regarding me speeding in my Autotrail Chieftain.
> ...


Each photo is examined by an actual person as the camera may have flashed when 2 people were travelling through it and one was speeding and the other wasnt.
Thats why the lines are on the road so that they can tell who was speeding.
The person then records the licence number from which they can tell the class of the vehicle and hey presto fine

Phill


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## Bethune (Apr 21, 2008)

I am interested in what triggered the camera in the first place. Have we established what the speed limit was on this stretch of road ? Was it 50 mph ? I cannot believe GATSOs can differentiate vehicle size or weight.
Philip


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

drcotts said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > metblue said:
> ...


The person who records the licence number can not tell from the class of the vehicle i.e. in the OP's case 'Motor Caravan' what it's unladen weight is. This is not recorded by DVLA and does not apper on the V5C. 
They may of course take a punt and issue a FPN to every Motor Caravan registerd as PHGV but my Chausson could have had a MGW of 3700kg or 3850kg but had an unladen weight of less than 3.05t.
The moral is that every MH owner should know what the manufacturers MIRO and what MIRO means and compare that with the definition of 'unladen weight' in the C&U regulations. They can then decide whether they fall into the sub 3.05t unladen weight category with the higher speed limits.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Perhaps if Metblue could tell us exactly what the notice of intended prosecution said we could understand better.

I can't understand either how a camera can apply different limits to different vehicles. It's easy to understand how a computer system might do that by using number plate recognition and referring to DVLA records for vehicle details in order to check what the applicable limit is, but that seems not to be the situation here.

I don't even think unladen weight is recorded by the DVLA at first registration of a motorcaravan. I may be wrong about that though. I have checked and it is given on the paperwork which came with my van when it was new, so it was available to the DVLA if they wanted to note it, Alan.


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## jud (Aug 15, 2009)

metblue said:


> Hi to all,today i received a NIPS (notice of intended prosecution summons) notice from Northumbria police regarding me speeding in my Autotrail Chieftain.
> I was on cruise control at 56 mph when the roadside gatso camera flashed me ! now i know that with my vehicle i should only do 50 mph on "A" roads but as usual i was chancing my luck 50 mph +2 + 10% speedo error = 57mph.
> Reason for this posting is not to quibble about the lovely coloured photograph of me speeding, i'm guilty as stated, no reason for the posting is to warm all of you that the gatso's are programmed to catch you because of you size,this also applies to truckers to, so spare them a thought when you come up behind then sitting at 50mph as they are only staying at the legal limit for them.
> So watch out folks,"Big Brother" is watching you !!


hi . i have been caught speeding in a car a van & a 30 tonner so i don't think it make any different what you are driving you are caught speeding and that is the end of that .by the way the 40 tonner was in Preston in a 30 mph zone and i was doing 33 mph just where it changes from 40 mph so if you cant not do the time don't do the crime. i have had a clean license since 2000 now when in motorway works for instance i all ways set the cruise when i can so i don't get distracted jud


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Good grief! I never knew this. I have always assumed (assumption being the mother of all cock ups of course) that the limits were just the same.

Im a bit confused though about this unladen weight thing. I know our vans max laden weight is 3400KG and generally packed up with the bike on the back we run around at the max but empty with just me driving, no gear in and no bike I reckon we could be under 3050KG perhaps. In fact we will be as our Payload is about 690 KG I think. So how will they know? I could start a journey under 3050, stop for a few pies and end up 3052KG!

Anyway I found this info on Gatsos. I suspect only a few of them (at the moment) can detect size or weight and half of those probably have run out of film.

http://ukspeedcameras.co.uk/guide.htm

Quote

"Some Gatso's can also tell the difference between a car and HGV, so if for instance the limit was 60 mph for cars and for HGV's it was 40 mph, if HGV's pass the threshold of approx 45-50mph the camera would be triggered. "

Thanks for bringing it to our attention OP although it appears everyone else knew about the speed limits except me.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Barry, you are confused. It's the "naked" (unladen) weight of the van that counts. Pies would be part of your payload and therefore have no bearing on the topic, Alan.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

barryd said:


> Good grief! I never knew this. I have always assumed (assumption being the mother of all cock ups of course) that the limits were just the same.
> 
> Im a bit confused though about this unladen weight thing. I know our vans max laden weight is 3400KG and generally packed up with the bike on the back we run around at the max but empty with just me driving, no gear in and no bike I reckon we could be under 3050KG perhaps. In fact we will be as our Payload is about 690 KG I think. So how will they know? I could start a journey under 3050, stop for a few pies and end up 3052KG!
> 
> ...


Barry, the Unaden Weight is defined in the regulations:

"Unladen weight
The unladen weight of any vehicle is the vehicles own weight when not carrying any goods or burden. This is:

•inclusive of the body and all parts which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road
•exclusive of fuel and, in the case of an electrically powered vehicle, the batteries"

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022708

The legally defined Unladen Weight is normally LESS than the figure given by the MH manufacturers who give it as MIRO {Mass In Running Order}. The MIRO figure includes a nominal figure for the driver and habitation gas etc.
Rapido say in their brochure:

"When purchasing a RAPIDO, the unladen weight includes the weight of the vehicle's standard equipment.The unladen weight of camping-cars is determined in compliance with the laws currently in force and includes the vehicle in working order, the driver (75kg), the gas bottle, fresh water and fuel tanks up to 90 % of their capacitywith a tolerance of +/-5 % (in accordance with European Directive EC 92/21)".

In any event it is safe to say that a MIRO figure of less than 3.05t will mean you are well inside the legal definition of Unladen Weight for speed limit purposes.
Ray


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## Topefisher (Apr 20, 2011)

For reference:

I found that when checking vehicle speedos with my Garmin Zumo 660 that they have all read over by between 4 and 7%.

I have tried it in all our works cars and vans, our own personal cars and quite a few rental cars + about 4 motorcycles.

This has been about the maxium variation I have seen throughout the speed range.

The general opinion from other Garmin users I personally know has been very similar.

I don't know if anybody has found the same, be interested to know.


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

Confirming what Ray is saying the regs word for word are

unladen weight	the weight of a vehicle or trailer inclusive of the body and all parts (the heavier being taken where alternative bodies or parts are used) which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road, but exclusive of the weight of water, fuel or accumulators used for the purpose of the supply of power for the propulsion of the vehicle or, as the case may be, of any vehicle by which the trailer is drawn, and of loose tools and loose equipment.

with the full regs being at:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/3/made


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## splitwagon (Oct 20, 2009)

Topefisher said:


> For reference:
> 
> I found that when checking vehicle speedos with my Garmin Zumo 660 that they have all read over by between 4 and 7%.
> 
> I don't know if anybody has found the same, be interested to know.


The speed calculated by your GPS is very accurate indeed, probably much better than 1 MPH at any instant in time when you are moving.

The way modern speedos work out speed is from transmission rotation rates, so will never be as accurate because of small variations in tyre diameter.

There are rules that state how much a speedo can over-read (and under-read), some people might even say they prefer their speedo to over-read.

So, over-reading speedos have been known about for decades, it is being able to cross-check with GPS that makes this obvious.

I wonder if anyone has successfully defended against prosecution using GPS data?

Cheers

Split
~~~~~


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## Jented (Jan 12, 2010)

Hi.
Rumour had it that the camera at the bottom of Barraby? hill,just off the A 1,heading Grantham to Notts,had an electrical height device,a couple of lamp posts back up the hill,that triggered the camera,should any vehicle larger than say a transit type van went through. This may just be "Rumour", but it slowed the lorries down. This was a few years ago,so there is probably a GATSO there now,take care.
Ted


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## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

I have always found that the GPS reads lower than the speedos in both the car and the 'van. I have also checked using two different models of GPSs plus the speedo app on my Android phone side by side and they agreed with one another, within the limits of the refresh rates.

Interestingly, the 'van speedo used to read 9-10% high. Some of you may recall our postings on here early in the year outlining the saga we were having with Peugeot getting supplies of a replacement speed sensor transducer when the old one failed. For the almost five months we were without it, we were relying on the GPS as our sole source of speed indication - not sure how we'd have stood in court!

However since the new transducer was fitted, our speedo still reads high but now only by about 4-5%. Luckily, we spotted this before going through various averaging speed roadworks!


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

splitwagon said:


> The speed calculated by your GPS is very accurate indeed, probably much better than 1 MPH at any instant in time when you are moving.
> 
> The way modern speedos work out speed is from transmission rotation rates, so will never be as accurate because of small variations in tyre diameter.
> 
> ...


Speedos have to be within 10% at 30mph i.e. + or - 3mph, so you r speedo can legally show 33 when you are doing 30, they rarely are lower due to safety and liability issues.

The Motor Vehcilce Construction and Use Regualtions say (I believe) that you have to have a device to show speed within that accuracy at all times. GPS only works with the degree of accuracy that you have stated if sufficient satellites are being interrogated, i.e. with just 1 or 2 it is not that accurate......

Also GPS does not work in tunnels (no sight of the satellites) and may not be accurate in high rise areas (e.g. those encountered in London's narrow streets with high buildings on each side restricting access to the sky).

But the report of a camera that senses the size or mass of an approaching vehicle is new to me and potentially of real worry. The only option will be to obey the speed limits 8O Now that will be a major change for many people that we see on the roads won't it ????? :lol:

Dave


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

Penquin said:


> splitwagon said:
> 
> 
> > The speed calculated by your GPS is very accurate indeed, probably much better than 1 MPH at any instant in time when you are moving.
> ...


Interesting. That's what I thought until I read this:

Speedometers

35.-(1) Save as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3), every motor vehicle shall be fitted with a speedometer which, if the vehicle is first used on or after 1st April 1984, shall be capable of indicating speed in both miles per hour and kilometres per hour, either simultaneously or, by the operation of a switch, separately.

(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply to-

(a)a vehicle having a maximum speed not exceeding 25 mph;

(b)a vehicle which it is at all times unlawful to drive at more than 25 mph;

(c)an agricultural motor vehicle which is not driven at more than 20 mph;

(d)a motor cycle first used before 1st April 1984 the engine of which has a cylinder capacity not exceeding 100 cc;

(e)an invalid carriage first used before 1st April 1984;

(f)a works truck first used before 1st April 1984;

(g)a vehicle first used before 1st October 1937; or

(h)a vehicle equipped with recording equipment marked with a marking designated as an approval mark by regulation 5 of the Approval Marks Regulations and shown at item 3 in Schedule 4 to those Regulations (whether or not the vehicle is required to be equipped with that equipment) and which, as regards the visual indications given by that equipment of the speed of the vehicle, complies with the requirements relating to the said indications and installations specified in the Community Recording Equipment Regulation.

(3) Instead of complying with paragraph (1) a vehicle may comply with Community Directive 75/443 or with ECE Regulation 39.

That's reg 35 of the C&U regs http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/35/made

I haven't been able to turn up the background to the 10% rule. I wonder if its common sense being applied through case law.


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## goldi (Feb 4, 2009)

Afternoon folks,

All speedometers over read because if they did,nt everybody would be getting booked and claiming off the manufacturers.

I thought afteer getting flashed on A road about three weeks ago and looking up the speed limits that the limit was 50 .



norm


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Vehicle construction and use regulations require a vehicle speedometer accuracy to be in the range of -0->+10%. The implications are that it must never under-read - for obvious reasons - but may over-read.

This is what was said by the Government in parliament in response to a question:

"The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, as amended, allows the use of speedometers that meet the requirements of EC Community Directive 75/443(97/39) or ECE Regulation 39. Both the EC Directive and the ECE Regulation lay down accuracy requirements to be applied at the time of vehicle approval for speedometers. These requirements are that the indicated speed must not be more than 10 per cent of the true speed plus 4 km/h. In production, however, a slightly different tolerance of 5 per cent plus 10 km/h is applied. The requirements are also that the indicated speed must never be less than the true speed.

A vehicle meeting these requirements would not be able to travel at a greater speed than that shown on the speedometer and a driver could not, therefore, inadvertently exceed speed restrictions. Her Majesty's Government have no plans to introduce instrument tests".


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

goldi said:


> Afternoon folks,
> I thought afteer getting flashed on A road about three weeks ago and looking up the speed limits that the limit was 50 .
> norm


Norm, Can you expand please? A roads can be single or dual carriageways and have different speed limits for each, as can B roads.
When you looked up the speed limit what type of vehicle were you checking for?


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## dovtrams (Aug 18, 2009)

The last time I travelled up the A1 in Northumberland 3 months ago, there was a new to me 50 mph speed limit for a good few miles. If that is the bit of the road we are talking about, 57mph will get you fined and points. I am told that the alternative course is well worth while.

Dave


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## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

dovtrams said:


> . . . I am told that the alternative course is well worth while. Dave


This seems to vary. 
Someone I know went on a course run within the Thames Valley area which was held at the Transport & Road Research Laboratory in Crowthorne. She said it was excellent, they spent most of it doing computer simulated scenarios followed by a very useful Q&A session with someone who really knew his stuff. She suggested that every driver would benefit from attending.

Another friend did hers in the West Country and it consisted of simply sitting in a classroom being lectured at by 'a spotty youth'. One question he asked was along the lines of " If you are in the middle of a queue of vehicles travelling at 42mph, who is setting the speed you are driving at?" She gave the obvious answer: " The driver of the car at the front of the line" whereupon he leapt on her (not physically!), saying scornfully "WRONG, WRONG, WRONG - you are setting your own speed!" to which she replied "Not if I wish to be doing 50 mph I'm not" He hadn't said anything about what the speed limit was on the stretch of road they were supposedly driving on. He went a bit pink  and couldn't offer any further response. It went pretty well downhill from there on and she felt it was a total waste of time, although she accepts it kept her licence clean.


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

rayc said:


> Vehicle construction and use regulations require a vehicle speedometer accuracy to be in the range of -0->+10%. The implications are that it must never under-read - for obvious reasons - but may over-read.
> 
> This is what was said by the Government in parliament in response to a question:
> 
> ...


I can find the 'must not under-read' part of EC Community Directive 75/443(97/39) or ECE Regulation 39; its the 10% bit that I'm having trouble with. :? I find this sort of thing interesting. Perhaps I should get out a bit more


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

rogerblack said:


> dovtrams said:
> 
> 
> > . . . I am told that the alternative course is well worth while. Dave
> ...


Leaving aside the efficacy of the course itself (my other half did say it was interesting & she learned things), it's worthwhile from a cost standpoint, probably more so as a motorhome owner. Get points on your license and the potential impact is on every policy on which you're named...so the motorhome, your car, your wife's car, your toad etc etc. And not just this year, but the next and the next. Worth £80 to avoid that.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I still dont get it. What is the unladen weight of My Kontiki? I have no idea. I only know its max laden weight is 3400KG.

I generally do 60mph on an A road single carrageway such as the A1 up through Northumberland or the A66 across to the lakes and up to 70 on a dual carriage way or motorway. Feels safe as its a big road but I would be hacked off if I got fined for it.


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## richardjames (Feb 1, 2006)

drcotts said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > metblue said:
> ...


I agree


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Why should laws make sense Barry? It's just a legal mess, all the more so as Motorcaravans have been singled out for special treatment which is based on their unladen weight which is uncertain at the best of times, even as they leave the converter, Alan.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

What an interesting and eye-opening thread this is.......

Like BarryD I do not know the unladen mass of my Kontiki - I always thought it was the laden weight so thanks to one and all for some valuable opportunities to learn.

Mind where we are now the situation is different anyway........

and I am NOT going take this {offtopic} by even starting to discuss that......... :lol: 

Dave


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## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

Penquin said:


> What an interesting and eye-opening thread this is....... (snip) Mind where we are now the situation is different anyway........ and I am NOT going take this {offtopic} by even starting to discuss that......... :lol: Dave


Actually, Dave, I wouldn't class that as being off-topic, since many of us come across the channel regularly and I for one would be interested to know if a similar situation applies over there.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

From the definition of 'unladen weight' as quoted by rayc and referred to in the link, am I correct in thinking that anything such as a towbar, spare wheel, leisure batteries, gas bottles, all domestic piping, refrigerator, sink etc,, which are not 'necessary' for the operation of the vehicle, can be excluded?

If so, how can the 'unladen weight' be established by any prosecuting authority without dismantling the vehicle?

Or have I misunderstood?

And what was the purpose of defining 'unladen weight' in relation to speed limits? Surely for braking and stopping distances the MAM is more relevant? And why 3050kg - it does not even translate to a round figure in lbs.?

Anyone know the history of the law?

Just a few thoughts before I go out to dinner ['barryd' - not pies! ]

Geoff


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

rogerblack said:


> Penquin said:
> 
> 
> > What an interesting and eye-opening thread this is....... (snip) Mind where we are now the situation is different anyway........ and I am NOT going take this {offtopic} by even starting to discuss that......... :lol: Dave
> ...


As I understand it unladen weight does not enter the equation in France for motor caravans, it is the much more sensible MGW which counts, either under or over 3.5t. I will leave it to Dave to expand further as you have asked him to comment.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Geoff, no doubt those who drafted the legislation has 3 tons in mind and added in a few pies for Barry, Alan.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

As regards the A1, you gentlemen can rest easy. There is little chance of you being done for speeding North of Newcastle.

Some of the road is dual carriageway and when it appears, you will struggle to get into the outside lane due to the long line of frustrated car drivers. 

I have very rarely NOT been stuck in a long slow parade of vehicles on that road. For some reason it is always worse coming South from Berwick. 8O 

Both me and the wife have done these courses (twice in the wifes case) and they are alright. When I was on mine, there was a chap from Barrow in Furness there. He had been caught locally and travelled a long way to avoid the 3 point penalty as he drives as part of his job.


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## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

747 said:


> . . . Both me and the wife have done these courses (twice in the wifes case) and they are alright. . . .


that's interesting, since my understanding was that you would only be offered this option the first time around, not for 'repeat offences' - were the two possibly within different jurisdictions where they don't cross-check?

Keep taking the pies, by the way :wink:


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

rogerblack said:


> Penquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will start another thread on that point to avoid detracting from this topic;

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-1162135.html#1162135

Hope that OK with everyone!

Dave


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## WhiteCheyenneMan (Sep 27, 2011)

A few quick points (but not on your licence :lol: ):
GPS speed is more accurate, almost spot on, but is delayed by 1 or more seconds due to transmission lag (same as your digital tv when compared to analogue).
Your Unladen Weight is normally printed in the handbook, or in the technical specification. In the case of Autotrail several editions of these can be downloaded, at least back to 2008. This is the definitive measure for your MH in the UK.
Sur le continent, most countries (France, Germany and Austria at least) go by the MH's Gross Train Weight (GTW) which will put many more of us in the lower speed restrictions.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

rogerblack said:


> 747 said:
> 
> 
> > . . . Both me and the wife have done these courses (twice in the wifes case) and they are alright. . . .
> ...


Not so my friend. 8)

You are not allowed a second course within a certain time period and get an automatic fine and 3 points. It is either 18 or 24 months of the first offence. There is no restriction on how many times you can attend, subject to that condition I specified.

Actually, in my wifes case she WAS inside the time period and should have had the fine and points. They sent her the offer of the Driver Awareness Course, she applied, was accepted and Hey Presto, no points on her licence. 

BTW Roger, BarryD is the Pie fanatic who has let himself go. I shall only say that my body is a Temple......and await a humourous response. :roll:


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Here is the ACPO guidance on the Driver Awareness Course and speed Awareness Course criteria.
You should not be offered a course if it is within 3 years of the last one. There is now a National database so there is a lot less chance of being offered a further course within the 3 years..
The courses are the big money earners for Police Forces and they can fund Camera Partnerships from them - they will offer the course if they possibly can.
ACPO course guidance


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

747 said:


> BTW Roger, BarryD is the Pie fanatic who has let himself go. I shall only say that my body is a Temple......and await a humourous response. :roll:


cheeky little northern monkey! Ill have you know I lost three and a half stone on that mad summer trip we did rowing that stupid little rubber dinghy around Europe!

ITs all down hill now though. Back in rainy grey Teesdale, pie shops everywhere, fish and chips, curry and now I have to worry about going too fast en route to the pie shop!

Actually I may need to stay on the pies as I have read somewhere else on here that if I loose too much weight it will have a detremental effect on our payload and with the bike on the back the van may start to pull wheelies as the front end gets lighter.

Sad times indeed.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

barryd said:


> 747 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW Roger, BarryD is the Pie fanatic who has let himself go. I shall only say that my body is a Temple......and await a humourous response. :roll:
> ...


Be very careful of loading to much weight behind the back axle


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

Of course, if you're measuring your speed with a GPS, it only knows your positions parallel to the surface of the earth. Your linear speed, parallel to the road surface, may vary from the GPS speed.

Not that I'm being pedantic or anything :roll: 

Gerald


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## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

747 said:


> . . . BTW Roger, BarryD is the Pie fanatic who has let himself go. I shall only say that my body is a Temple......and await a humourous response. :roll:


Sorry, my mistake  - forget my own name some days! :roll:

By the way, do you mean Shirley Temple? :lol: :lol:


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## tonyblake (Apr 4, 2008)

Actually I beg to differ. With technology these days it is pointless speeding.
Plus, if vthey don't get you on camera, they can get you on the digi tacho's. It is now enforcable to prosecute at a later date because of storage on card. Apparently the card only stores for 30 days and then over writes. Rubbish...VOSA can pull up 12 months history on it.
That's of course if you are not spotted on tracker or having Tacho's checked.

"Truckers over 7500kg on A roads are only allowed 40mph but 99% do not keep to limit "
Derek


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

rogerblack said:


> 747 said:
> 
> 
> > . . . BTW Roger, BarryD is the Pie fanatic who has let himself go. I shall only say that my body is a Temple......and await a humourous response. :roll:
> ...


Hi Roger,

I firmly believe that it is better to resemble Shirley Temple than Clive Anderson. :wink:


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## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

747 said:


> rogerblack said:
> 
> 
> > 747 said:
> ...


OUCH! :lol:

Although I believe I have commented before on your commenting on other people's Avatars being like living in a glass house and chucking bricks . . .


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## emmbeedee (Oct 31, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> And what was the purpose of defining 'unladen weight' in relation to speed limits? Surely for braking and stopping distances the MAM is more relevant? And why 3050kg - it does not even translate to a round figure in lbs.? http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules/Forums/bbcode_box/images/ram.gif
> 
> Anyone know the history of the law?
> 
> ...


3,050kg equates (very nearly) to 3 Tons in old money, as follows:
3 Tons x 2,240 = 6,720 lbs.
6,720/2.2046 = 3,048 kg.
So it appears the law must have referred originally to ULW of 3 tons & 3,050 kg was the nearest round number in kgs. 
I agree in this case "the law is an ass". I carry with me a weight certificate of my van unladen. I removed the spare wheel & everything movable & took it round to a local weighbridge, so if anyone pulls me at least they can see I have made an effort to comply. I am well under 3,050 kg in any case.
I can remember when all goods vehicles used to have stencilled on the side, often on the fuel tank, the ULW, so in those times it would have been easy for Plod to check the relevant speed limit. I don't know if that still applies to goods vehicles.
I can't imagine any Plod nowadays making you drive to a weighbridge & unload everything to check the actual ULW, but you never know your luck.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

emmbeedee said:


> I can't imagine any Plod nowadays making you drive to a weighbridge & unload everything to check the actual ULW, but you never know your luck.


They wouldn't bother. They, or their colleagues in the Camera Partnership would issue you with a NIP / FPN. If you believed you were not guilty of the offence you would reject the FPN on the grounds that your vehicle was subject to higher limits due to it being a Motor Caravan with an unladen weight of under 3.05t.
They would either accept your claim, possibly asking for evidence or reject it and pass the file to the CPS for further consideration and the possibility of a summons. It is then up to the Magistrate to rule on your case, where to be found guilty they would have to believe beyond reasonable doubt, that the unladen weight of your vehicle as defined in the regulations was over 3.05t.


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## goldi (Feb 4, 2009)

rayc said:


> goldi said:
> 
> 
> > Afternoon folks,
> ...


 My van is is classed as avan not motorhome . I was travelling on the A1 south scotland single carriageway. I do not believe that there are that maby weigh in motion sensors because of costI did not know about height beams until somone mentioned it on here and I am sceptical, this then brings me to the dvla linkages with the careras.
this happened over three weeks ago so no action can be taken . 
I hope this helps rayc

norm


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

Hi all,

There are two cameras in Lincolnshire, both on a single A class road, which I set off every time I go through them at 50 mph. 
I was not aware of height sensors until very recently, and assumed that it was either the weight, or the number of axles (3) running over the imbedded sensors in quick succession, that had activated the camera. 

On each occasion, I've not received any tickets.

Regards,

Jock.


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## metblue (Oct 9, 2006)

Hi and many thank to all who replied to my post, it has opened a real can of worms !!
I will try to answer your questions,
1) the stretch of A1 i was on has a 60 mph speed limit
2) there was/is no temp speed limit in force (i was there in my car 
yesterday)
3)The nip only stated, Your were in a vehicle which is only allowed a maximum speed of 50mph !!
4) They enclosed colour photographs of vehicle,date and time indicating that i was doing that speed.(57mph)
I have a couple of questions for you, the unladen weight of my chieftain according to Autotrail web site is 3415kgs ! and a max gross off 4500kgs and that the former is what should be used by the police for NIPS.
If this is the case and i am under 3500kgs I should then be allowed to do 60mph !!
Can someone clarify this ? if not I will be partaking the AA drivetech speed awareness course in bonnie Berwick upon Tweed sometime in January 2012, weather and roads permitting.
Thanking you all in advance,cheers,Tom


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

metblue said:


> I have a couple of questions for you, the unladen weight of my chieftain according to Autotrail web site is 3415kgs ! and a max gross off 4500kgs and that the former is what should be used by the police for NIPS.
> If this is the case and i am under 3500kgs I should then be allowed to do 60mph !!
> Can someone clarify this ? if not I will be partaking the AA drivetech speed awareness course in bonnie Berwick upon Tweed sometime in January 2012, weather and roads permitting.
> Thanking you all in advance,cheers,Tom


Hi Tom,

Without reading all the posts so far, I do believe the magic figure is 3.05 tonnes (3,050Kgs), rather than 3.5 tonnes (3,500kgs), and goodness knows why, when our European counterparts appear to use the 3.5 tonne figure. :?

Regards,

Jock.


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Yes - I am afraid it is 3,050kg so it sounds as if you will have to do the course.

Like you, I have not previously worried too much about the lower limit of 50mph on such roads but I will now be far more careful. Thanks for alerting us to this.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

JockandRita said:


> metblue said:
> 
> 
> > I have a couple of questions for you, the unladen weight of my chieftain according to Autotrail web site is 3415kgs ! and a max gross off 4500kgs and that the former is what should be used by the police for NIPS.
> ...


Tom, The difference is that the UK rule is 3050kg Unladen Weight whilst the European one is 3500kg MGW. With the figures you give you would have been guilty on each of them 

It would appear that the only manufacturers specification you have is the 3415kg figure. I do not know if that is a figure that equates to the legally defined 'unladen weight' or if it is the MIRO which includes such additional thing as 90% fuel and 78kg allowance for the driver, 90% gas etc.

My personal view is that with a MGW of 4500kg it is unlikely that your legallly defined Unladen Weight is less than 3050kg and you are guilty as charged of exceeding the speed limit for the class of vehicle. As I see it the course is the cheapest option open to you and I would accept it.
I think any MH which falls into the PHGV catergory is very likely to be over 3050kg unladen weight and fall into the lower speed limit band. In adition I think there are many that fall into the PLG category which are borderline.
This is what I said many posts back and I stick by it "The moral is that every MH owner should know what the manufacturers MIRO and what MIRO means and compare that with the definition of 'unladen weight' in the C&U regulations. They can then decide whether they fall into the sub 3.05t unladen weight category with the higher speed limits."

Ray

PS. It is not always neccessary to attend a course in the county where the event happened. I would suggest you go to their website and the AA drive tech one and explore your options.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Do we know yet weather a foreign registered vehicle will receive a fine when 'flashed' over the limit?

Ray.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

raynipper said:


> Do we know yet weather a foreign registered vehicle will receive a fine when 'flashed' over the limit?
> 
> Ray.


Not according to this 2011 article: 
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Home/Foreign-drivers-slipping-through-net-for-speeding-26072011.htm

It is not possible to issue a NIP/FPN to a foreign address.


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

Hi

All very interesting. 

No one has mentioned motorhome speed limits for over 7.5 tons? I'm not saying more than 56 is a good thing on many roads for such a big vehicle, but doing more than 40mph on single carraigeway is what nearly all lorries do do regardless of the various ways for them to be caught remotely.  Having a big queue of artics all tight up behind my camper doesn't encourage maintaining 40 

Yesterday I drove from Inverness to Preston, the vast majority of the northern bit on the lovely A9. It had lots of lorries but only two were sticking to 40 when one lane, Morrisons and "Chivas Regal". So maybe some employers make it a big deal to keep to limits, others make a big deal of get there ASAP?

A nice thread though!


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

grizzlyj said:


> Hi
> 
> All very interesting.
> 
> ...


As I understand it if the vehicle is registered as a 'Motor Caravan' then the criteria is the 3.05t unladen weight one. Over or under any specific MGW makes no difference. see the first paragraph of the link:

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-speed-limits.shtml


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I had a google around for my van but could only find some specs on a couple of adverts

http://www.motorsportads.com/recently-sold/15971.html

The first one states "The unladen weight including driver and fuel is 2810kgs."

http://www.c4caravans.com/motorhome-swift-gloucestershire90424.php

And this one states "Unladen Weight: 2700 kgs"

Either way can I assume its well under then?

I dont get it though. How come my van is big but so light? Its bigger than some of the newer vans that are much hevier. Is mine made of balsa wood or are the new ones full of house bricks?


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

barryd said:


> I had a google around for my van but could only find some specs on a couple of adverts
> 
> http://www.motorsportads.com/recently-sold/15971.html
> 
> ...


It would appear to fall into the under 3.05t unladen weight catergory especially as it has a MGW of 3.4t. All you have to do now is get something together so that you could produce it as evidence if it ever got to court. In my limited experience it is very unlikely to do so if it is registered as a Motor Caravan and falls into the PLG tax band.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

rayc said:


> raynipper said:
> 
> 
> > Do we know yet weather a foreign registered vehicle will receive a fine when 'flashed' over the limit?
> ...


Thanks Ray.
I do like this...................

"Of those 36,890 were "not proceeded with" including 2,533 "visitors from abroad or foreign vehicle".

That also included 5,257 police vehicles, 1,269 fire appliances and 7,069 ambulances."

Looks like twice as many police broke the law than 'visitors'.

Ray.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

raynipper said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > raynipper said:
> ...


I am sure that the Police Officers were using their lawful excemptions within the law at the time they tripped the cameras.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

So how do they know then? Sorry if Im being thick but if I drive past a Gatso at 57 mph and then the OP drives past it how will it know which one its going to flash at as they are probably a similar size?

Are you saying I have to prove to the courts that my van is under the 3050KG limit which it clearly is?

I dont really see how I can prove that unless its in the manual or something. Cant have a look as the vans in the repairers.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

barryd said:


> So how do they know then? Sorry if Im being thick but if I drive past a Gatso at 57 mph and then the OP drives past it how will it know which one its going to flash at as they are probably a similar size?
> 
> Are you saying I have to prove to the courts that my van is under the 3050KG limit which it clearly is?
> 
> I dont really see how I can prove that unless its in the manual or something. Cant have a look as the vans in the repairers.


In the circumstances you describe then the camera would flash both of you.
Who knows the inner workings of Camera Partnerships? Perhaps when examining the photos they prosecute all Motor caravans in tax band PHGV and do not prosecute those in tax band PLG.
If for some perverse reason they decided to prosecute you then the following scenario is likely:

They would issue you with a NIP / FPN. If you believed you were not guilty of the offence you would reject the FPN on the grounds that your vehicle was subject to higher limits due to it being a Motor Caravan with an unladen weight of under 3.05t. 
They would either accept your claim, possibly asking for evidence or reject it and pass the file to the CPS for further consideration and the possibility of a summons. It is then up to the Magistrate to rule on your case, where to be found guilty they would have to believe beyond all reasonable doubt, that the unladen weight of your vehicle as defined in the regulations was over 3.05t.


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## jim424 (Sep 17, 2011)

I've only recently bought a motorhome but I thought the case was clear. In the registration document it is described as Private/Light Goods. In the Highway Code it says: Goods vehicles
(under 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight) 30, 50, 60, and 70 for built-up, single carriageways, dual carriageways and motorways respectively. I would expect be done for doing 56 on a single carriageway.
It also says:
Car-derived’ vans weigh no more than 2 tonnes when loaded and are based on car designs. These have the same limits as cars.
jim424


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

jim424 said:


> I've only recently bought a motorhome but I thought the case was clear. In the registration document it is described as Private/Light Goods. In the Highway Code it says: Goods vehicles
> (under 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight) 30, 50, 60, and 70 for built-up, single carriageways, dual carriageways and motorways respectively. I would expect be done for doing 56 on a single carriageway.
> It also says:
> Car-derived' vans weigh no more than 2 tonnes when loaded and are based on car designs. These have the same limits as cars.
> jim424


Jim, we will soon be back on page 1 and starting this all over again:

Is your MH registered as a 'Motor Caravan' in the Registration Document? If so it is not a Goods Vehicle.

The Tax Band i.e. PLG or PHGV has no relavence to the maximum speed limits.

If your Vehicle is a Motor Caravan with an UNLADEN weight of 3.050kg or less then the speed limits are 30, 60, 70, and 70 for built-up, single carriageways, dual carriageways and motorways respectively.

If it has an UNLADEN weight of over 3.050kg then the speed limits are 30, 50, 60, and 70 for built-up, single carriageways, dual carriageways and motorways respectively.

That is the law, you may expect to be done for doing 56 on a single carriageway, but if your vehicle is a Motor Caravan with an UNLADEN weight of 3.050kg or less, you should not be done as you are driving legally.

Ray


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## uncleswede (Apr 16, 2010)

metblue said:


> I was on cruise control at 56 mph when the roadside gatso camera flashed me ! now i know that with my vehicle i should only do 50 mph on "A" roads but as usual i was chancing my luck 50 mph +2 + 10% speedo error = 57mph.!


Comparing the speed as measured by my satnav with my speedometer, when my speedo reads 52/53, I'm actually doing 50mph (also 74 on speedo = 70mph on satnav)


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

uncleswede said:


> metblue said:
> 
> 
> > I was on cruise control at 56 mph when the roadside gatso camera flashed me ! now i know that with my vehicle i should only do 50 mph on "A" roads but as usual i was chancing my luck 50 mph +2 + 10% speedo error = 57mph.!
> ...


It would be interesting to know what a fixed or mobile speed detecting device would be measuring at your speedo indicated 52/53.


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## uncleswede (Apr 16, 2010)

Well, I have driven through many 50mph fixed cameras with the speedo showing 52/53 and not been flashed (as yet)


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## metblue (Oct 9, 2006)

well folks, as i said i have opened a large tin of worms eh !! got all talking about the rights/wrongs of speeding (when caught !!)
As has been said, do the sin ,do the time So to that effect i finally managed to get a call through to AA Drivetech today and get a date to do the course in january 2012.
I will of course give you all feedback on the course once completed !
So to put this to bed will all of you have a Merry/Happy Christmas and a Great New Year in 2012 !!! 

PS. keep your foot of the accelerator when required and watch for the boys in blue and those dammed camera's


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## LittleGreyCat (Jun 22, 2008)

Half on, half off topic 

My Hymer manual does have approximate weights in with a warning that each van is different.
We had it weighed before we bought it to confirm that there was a reasonable payload - all the paperwork is in the van and I can't be bothered to dig it out tonight.
Well worth weighing the van empty, and generally very cheap as well.

The reason I found this thread is that I was talking to my cousin, who is disabled and has a WAV [Wheelchair Accessible Vehicle] and she thought that her speed limits were those for commercial vehicles of the same size. I said that my motorhome had the same limits as a car (and afterwards came here to double check).

I think that her vehicle should be classed as a passenger vehicle as shown in the table
http://www.dcsafetycameras.org/education/carDrivers/index.aspx
but can't find any reference to confirm this.
Her van is a Mercedes - previous one was a Transit.

Does anyone here know the classification?

Seems crazy that I can drive faster than she can (legally).

Cheers

LGC


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## steco1958 (Mar 5, 2009)

metblue said:


> well folks, as i said i have opened a large tin of worms eh !! got all talking about the rights/wrongs of speeding (when caught !!)
> As has been said, do the sin ,do the time So to that effect i finally managed to get a call through to AA Drivetech today and get a date to do the course in january 2012.
> I will of course give you all feedback on the course once completed !
> So to put this to bed will all of you have a Merry/Happy Christmas and a Great New Year in 2012 !!!
> ...


I did the "Speed Course" in 2010, it was very good, it reminds you of the reasons behind the speed limits, it also reminds you of all the things that you have forgotten or just ignore during your day to day driving.

I have to say, since having my MH, I dont think I have ever speeded in it.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

barryd said:


> Are you saying I have to prove to the courts that my van is under the 3050KG limit which it clearly is?


??

Where does this 3050kg come from?

On here 
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelA...G_178867?CID=TAT&PLA=url_mon&CRE=speed_limits
the only mention is Cars and car derived vans under 2 tonnes MLW.

I know it is mentioned here..
http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-faqs.shtml#speed 
but where has that come from?

Surely the DirectGov site should have some mention of the 3050kg unladen somewhere if it's "the law".

Then here
http://www.dcsafetycameras.org/education/carDrivers/index.aspx
The Devon & Cornwall safety camera site makes no mention of the 3050kg limit on the main page BUT if you click on and open the pdf 
http://www.dcsafetycameras.org/documents/National Speed Limits.pdf
the 3050kg limit magically appears - but where from?

...................and if it can magically appear and disappear all the time how is anybody meant to know?


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Stanner said:


> barryd said:
> 
> 
> > Are you saying I have to prove to the courts that my van is under the 3050KG limit which it clearly is?
> ...


Specifically fom the RTA Section 86 which sets out the regulation. The actual speed limits for type are in Schedule 6.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/schedule/6

Item no 1 gives the speed limits for a Motor Caravan over 3.05t Unladen weight.

If a vehicle type is not shown in Schedule 6 then the National Speed Limit applies i.e Motor Caravan under 3.05t Unladen Weight are the General NSL of 60 single / 70 dual / 70 motorways.


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## metblue (Oct 9, 2006)

Well folks here's my update,on Thursday 26th Jan i drove to Berwick upon Tweed to attend the Norhumbria Speed Awareness course.
This is my experience of it,the course lasts for 4 hours (with a break after two hours) 25 attended the course.It is run by AA Drivetech and the two guys Adrian and Steve are both fully qualified advance driving instructors.
The course covered all aspects of speeding and the how and why's that it happens plus the differents roads/conditions ect.
Each did a two hour stint covering in the first instance a question/answer session plus a slide of a Genuine RTA where a young 14 year old was killed.
It was a wake up call !! speed however little in the wrong place does kill.
All aspects of the RTA was discussed/questions were answered with full detailed explanations
In part two there was another short video of a run through a town and each table had to pick out possible distractions and or hazards , all the tables failed miserably !! 
More questions and answers then a talk about all the different kinds of cameras and there operations and finally we were advised to check www.northumbriapolice.co.uk to find out where all the cameras fixed and mobiles. 
All in all money well spent,learnt more than a few things about police work and how to be (hopeful) a more considerate driver.
Would reccomend attendance to all but please do not get caught speeding to get on the course !!


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Mrs Zeb came away with the same positive reaction.

In fact she thinks it's a pity that anybody can't opt to pay the money and go on the course.

I still haven't qualified! :roll: 

Dave


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## 1302 (Apr 4, 2006)

Zebedee said:


> In fact she thinks it's a pity that anybody can't opt to pay the money and go on the course.
> 
> Dave


Its only offered to minor offenders - I was doing 37 in a 30 so not exactly a prolific boy racer (although I was still braking from the 70 I was doing  You only get a stab if you have a clean license too.

I've typed all that out and now realised that you mean 'non offenders' should be able to pay and do the course - TBH I wouldnt say it weas that good a course and I imagine the Advanced Motorists might do something appropriate.

I did one a few weeks ago - I wont be returning


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## Mandale (May 18, 2011)

we once had a customer that had been caught speeding on a motorway in one of our courtesy cars. The customer insisted that something was wrong with the speedometer in our three month old courtesy car and he had been driving for over 20 years and indeed travelled thousands of miles every wk for his job. Two wks later we received a second speeding ticket for the same customer same place different date. I once heard a statement, "nothing handles like a hire car" seems that this customer's driving was fine in his own car "which he obviously looked after" but his driving style was completely different when the vehicle wasn't his. 6 points in 7 days! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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