# Thick newcomer needs more help



## midlifecrisismil (Sep 27, 2009)

Hi you all out there
Another dim question.  We are about to buy a 12v TV from Comet. It does not have a plug in the back but the chap said that it will come with a transformer in the lead so that we can use it from a 240v supply (ie either at home or on hook up).
So here goes the daft question - if we use it in the MH on the leisure battery and plug it into the TV socket is it going to work or will we need an additional lead which just does 12V to 12V???? :?


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## MikeCo (Jan 26, 2008)

If you are not on EHU then you have to either buy a separate 12v lead or use an inverter.

Mike


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## midlifecrisismil (Sep 27, 2009)

MikeCo said:


> If you are not on EHU then you have to either buy a separate 12v lead or use an inverter.
> 
> Mike


Thanks Mike but why would I need an inverter if I was going from a 12v leifsure battery to a 12v TV?


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

midlifecrisismil said:


> Hi you all out there
> Another dim question.  We are about to buy a 12v TV from Comet. It does not have a plug in the back but the chap said that it will come with a transformer in the lead so that we can use it from a 240v supply (ie either at home or on hook up).
> So here goes the daft question - if we use it in the MH on the leisure battery and plug it into the TV socket is it going to work or will we need an additional lead which just does 12V to 12V???? :?


Your right there, you will need a 12v to 12v stabiliser or and inverter to plug the TVs transformer into. I bought a TV from outdoor bits and had to get the extra kit to use it, or risk possible damage to the TV.

Wobby


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## midlifecrisismil (Sep 27, 2009)

wobby said:


> midlifecrisismil said:
> 
> 
> > Hi you all out there
> ...


Thanks but still confused. Does this mean that the transformer on the 12v TV transforms 240v (home power) to 12v but that if you plug it into a 12v socket it will try to transform it to 240v and thats why I would need an inverter to get it back to 12v or am I just plain thick???

And what is a 12v to 12v stabiliser - will Maplins understand if I ask for one of those?


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## richardjames (Feb 1, 2006)

No you are not thick. Basically you need regulated 12volt supply - some TVs do not like the ups and downs of the 12volt supply - a 12volt regulator smooths out the current - available from Maplin who should know what you need. I bought a MEOS and it came with both the 240 to 12 volt and 12volt to 12 volt regulated units. All you have to do is take the 240volt supply to Maplin who can then match the plug that goes into the TV although a lot of regulated supplies come with different plugs. The only other thing to concern yourself with is the polarity but Maplin should be able to help you with this as well
Hope that helps


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

You do need the voltage stabiliser. Although notionally rated at 12V, your battery will give anything from 14.5V down to 11V as it loses power. At 14.5V it could fry your TV.

The 240V transformer that came with your TV transforms from AC to DC, steps the voltage down, and stabilises the supply at 12V.

Bizarrely, although using a stabiliser is far more efficient, I gather getting an inverter can be cheaper.


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## Dixi (Oct 6, 2006)

if you use the transformer that comes with the TV you will either have to plug it in to 240v or use an inverter which steps up the voltage from 12v to 240v .

I you use the TV without the transformer you will have to make up a lead that connects your 12v supply to the TV the plugs are readily available from most good electrical shops .

I hope this explains your situation please do not hesitate to ask if you need more information

John


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## wackywyco (Apr 30, 2007)

*Thick Newcomer*

Welcome newcomer.....Please do not think of yourself as Thick, never be too embarrassed to ask on this forum as someone is bound to point you in the right direction, we cannot all be experts in all things. No doubt if you stick around the time will come when you can add your two pennorth to a thread and someone else will gain from your knowledge....


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## chrisjrv (May 7, 2007)

Hi,
Your TV will work on 12 volts supplied by the transformer plugged into the mains. The 12 volts in the van system can vary and be higher when on hook up with the leisure battery on charge. The stabiliser evens out these voltage fluctuations or you can run an inverter with the transformer plugged into it (ensure that the inverter is powerfull enough to run the transformer). If you are on hook up you can just plug the transformer into a mains socket as normal.
Regards,
Chris.


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## chrisjrv (May 7, 2007)

Hi,
Your TV will work on 12 volts supplied by the transformer plugged into the mains. The 12 volts in the van system can vary and be higher when on hook up with the leisure battery on charge. The stabiliser evens out these voltage fluctuations or you can run an inverter with the transformer plugged into it (ensure that the inverter is powerfull enough to run the transformer). If you are on hook up you can just plug the transformer into a mains socket as normal.
Regards,
Chris.


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

midlifecrisismil said:


> wobby said:
> 
> 
> > midlifecrisismil said:
> ...


A 12volt battery fully charged is nearer to 14 volt. a 12volt tv doesn't like that! so if you want to use your 12volt socket in the van to run the tv direct you need to stabilise the supply, hence the 12v to 12v stabiliser.

However if you want to use the transformer lead that came with your TV you will need a 240volt supply to plug it into. You can either wait till your on site and hooked up and use the power socket in the van.

If you wan't to use the TV on lets say an aire where there is no power supply, then you need to fit an inverter which will take power from your battery and transform it into 240volt which you can the plug the lead/transformer that came with your TV into

It sounds like an awful performance, but until the TV manufacturers fit into the TV a stabiliser thats what you have to do.

Wobby


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## bozzer (Jul 22, 2009)

Now I'm completely confused having just seen this thread.
We have a Beko 15in 12v and mains Tv. We have it permanently plugged into the 12v and have been using it for 4 years, we don't have an inverter could there be a stabiliser built in? We bought the TV from Roadpro as suitable for Motorhome. 
Is the discussion about domestic TV's being used in Mhome or all TV's
Thanks
Bozzer


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

bozzer said:


> Now I'm completely confused having just seen this thread.
> We have a Beko 15in 12v and mains Tv. We have it permanently plugged into the 12v and have been using it for 4 years, we don't have an inverter could there be a stabiliser built in? We bought the TV from Roadpro as suitable for Motorhome.
> Is the discussion about domestic TV's being used in Mhome or all TV's
> Thanks
> Bozzer


It may be that yours does have a stabiliser fitted in it especially as you bought it fro Road pro. The problem for most people is how do they know? and the risk is damage to the TV especially if its LCD.

I bought an LCD TV from outdoor bits a few years ago and even though it was advertised on the forum as 12 or 240 volt I had to buy a stabiliser to use 12 volt from the battery. To be fair to Outdoor bits when I pointed out the problem they paid for the stabiliser, and stopped advertising the TV as 12 volt


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## midlifecrisismil (Sep 27, 2009)

Thanks all of you out there I have now found this link http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Amperor-12-Vo...ctronics_PowerAdaptors_SM?hash=item19b718fb66 which explains things although I know that some of you have already explained this.

But next daft question. In the motorhome we have four three pin sockets and next to three of them there are circular holes which look like cigarette lighter sockets.

I have RTFM which says that we have three 230V sockets and 1 12V socket. The one socket without a circular hole at the side of it is the one that we are using for the heater and which only works on hook up so I assume that that is a 230v socket so what are the other sockets - are they for a 12v supply with appliances with a 3 pin plug and the circular sockets are for the same appliances but with cigarette lighter sockets on them????
I am now totally confused and the manual doesnt really explain it.


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## richardjames (Feb 1, 2006)

They are cigarrette style power sockets and the Amperor will just plug straight in


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

May suggest that next time you are on hook up Try out all the square pin sockets with your heater and see if they work, if they do you have the answer to that. Then the round one's you mention try something 12 volt like say a cheap rechargeable torch. However just to confuse things a bit more there are two kinds of 12 volt round outlet, the normal rubbish type and one that the Germans use!

Wobby


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## Oil-on-the-Road (Oct 16, 2009)

wobby said:


> May suggest that next time you are on hook up Try out all the square pin sockets with your heater and see if they work, if they do you have the answer to that. Then the round one's you mention try something 12 volt like say a cheap rechargeable torch. However just to confuse things a bit more there are two kinds of 12 volt round outlet, the normal rubbish type and one that the Germans use!
> 
> Wobby


Wobbly - would that be the smaller round plug that would fit the socket on the control panel of my 1993 Autosleeper Clubman that's marked "12v"?? Been wondering about that socket!


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## wakk44 (Jun 15, 2006)

midlifecrisismil said:


> Thanks all of you out there I have now found this link http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Amperor-12-Vo...ctronics_PowerAdaptors_SM?hash=item19b718fb66 which explains things although I know that some of you have already explained this.
> 
> But next daft question. In the motorhome we have four three pin sockets and next to three of them there are circular holes which look like cigarette lighter sockets.
> 
> ...


The amperor voltage stabiliser is the way to go imo.You can use it to supply the tv all the time regardless of whether you are on hook up or not.It will protect the tv from fluctuations in the 12v supply especially if the m/home charger is on.

You will need to check for the correct plug on the amperor supply that feeds into the tv as they are a few different types.Amperor can usually match one up for you,give them a ring with details of your tv before buying to save any problems,I have had dealings with them and they are very helpful.


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## midlifecrisismil (Sep 27, 2009)

wobby said:


> May suggest that next time you are on hook up Try out all the square pin sockets with your heater and see if they work, if they do you have the answer to that. Then the round one's you mention try something 12 volt like say a cheap rechargeable torch. However just to confuse things a bit more there are two kinds of 12 volt round outlet, the normal rubbish type and one that the Germans use!
> 
> Wobby


Would that be why the ones in the cab (Fiat Ducato) are different from the ones in the habitation area?


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

Oil-on-the-Road said:


> wobby said:
> 
> 
> > May suggest that next time you are on hook up Try out all the square pin sockets with your heater and see if they work, if they do you have the answer to that. Then the round one's you mention try something 12 volt like say a cheap rechargeable torch. However just to confuse things a bit more there are two kinds of 12 volt round outlet, the normal rubbish type and one that the Germans use!
> ...


Yes thats right, they are a different diameter and have different connections inside. If you get a torch a shine it into the socket you'll see what I mean. The van when/if new would be supplied with a couple of plugs to use with them as and when.

Wobby


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## midlifecrisismil (Sep 27, 2009)

wobby said:


> Oil-on-the-Road said:
> 
> 
> > wobby said:
> ...


Hi Van was new when bought but didnt get any plugs. Have used a cigarette connection in the plugs and seems to work OK - will this be alright or do I need to go back to dealer and ask him for appropriate plugs = any idea?


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## Oil-on-the-Road (Oct 16, 2009)

I would imagine that if the cig lighter plug will go in them, then that's what they are for - From what Wobby has now confirmed the other (German?) sort are asmaller diameter - so the common-or-garden 12v plugs wouldn't go in the socket.


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

Oil-on-the-Road said:


> I would imagine that if the cig lighter plug will go in them, then that's what they are for - From what Wobby has now confirmed the other (German?) sort are asmaller diameter - so the common-or-garden 12v plugs wouldn't go in the socket.


I would agree with that, my German van has both types, the German one's are better but very few accessories come with them.

Wobby


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

Most modern electronics will tolerate a wide range of voltage without anything going wrong. I have two TV's in my van - one is rated at 12 volts and I just plugged it into the van system via a cheap fused cigarette lighter adapter from Halfords and it works absolutely fine with nothing else fitted.

The other one is a sharp LCD TV rated at 14.3 volts which had been installed by Road Pro using an inverter between the 12v supply and the transformer feeding the telly. This was extremely wasteful of power so I cut the cable off the TV power supply and shoved it straight into the 12v van supply and it worked fine in spite of being 2.3v (nominally) too low to run it. It cut the power consumption from 3 amps to 1.8 amps as well which was very useful.

In general inverters and transformers are extremely wasteful of power which is no good in a van where you're constantly trying to be economical with it.

The 'Gadget Geek' brigade will tell you that you need all sorts of wierd and wonderful things like voltage stabilisers from Maplins or other suppliers but most electronics are so cheap nowadays it's worth just plugging the 12v straight in and seeing if it works. Even my laptop (nominally 18v) works fine on 12v though it doesn't charge the battery, it just runs the machine. As long as you make sure the polarity (plus and minus) are the right way round you're unlikely to damage anything and the worst that will happen is that the TV won't work properly. 99% of the time with recent stuff it'll be very happy on anything from 9v up to 18v in the case of a nominal 12v input. For lower voltage stuff buy a voltage reducing adaptor for about £2.99 at any garage. 

Hope this is useful to you

Cheers, Mark


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Well thats sure to give OP a mid life crisis . :lol: 
Dave p


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

Mark,

"The 'Gadget Geek' brigade", not a necessary remark and one that could be taken as an insult. 

My humble advice is based on sound advice I received from an intelligent gentleman who manufactures electronic equipment and I would rather listen to him.

I am sure you'll be happy to underight your advice, or would you?

Wobby


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## Oil-on-the-Road (Oct 16, 2009)

FIGHT 8O


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

Sorry it was meant tongue-in-cheek. I'm rather a 'Gadget Geek' myself a lot of the time especially when it comes to my very expensive and fragile Remote Control Helicopters.

The point I was trying to make was that LCD TV's and many other gadgets are so cheap nowadays that you might just as well plug them in and see if they work. If not, no harm done. If they do you've saved yourself time, effort and possible confusion if you're not very technically minded and if it blows up you've not lost a lot of money on it anyway.

The only thing that's ever happened to me is that stuff's not worked properly in which case I've had to run it off of an inverter. I've never experienced anything blowing up or failing... However to be 100% sure your advice was correct I just couldn't be bothered searching around Maplins in order to remove 1% of the risk of damaging a TV that probably cost 50 quid in the first place...

The saving on my motorhome of making everything 12v (two TV's, pace 12v box, laptop computer, my beard trimmers (seriously), battery chargers for my model helicopters and electronic flight instruments and everything else I could convert) is a reduction of about 50% in our electricity consumption per day. And I don't have to listen to all those nasty false 'low voltage' alarms going off on the mains inverters all the time.

Merry Xmas, Cheers, Mark

I forgot to mention I used to be an electronics engineer and have a wide experience of both vehicle electrics and mechanics from years spent building racing cars and..... motorhomes! This would probably have been a useful thing to mention in hindsight.


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

Go on, I'll bite...where did you get your fifty quid TV?

Oh, you mean one of those so-20th century CRT ones... :wink:


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

car boot sale is flooded with them

dave p


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

I live in France and Lidl, Aldi and occasionally Super U do a fine line in cheap and crappy electronics. I got a portable DVD player for 40 euros which has lasted 3 years before it died and kept my missus sane during her 10 day stay in French hospital whilst our daughter was born... I actually bought a workshop vertical drill stand (with motor and variable belt drive just like they have in a 'proper' machine shop) for 50 euros the other day in Lidl. How does anybody make it at that price?! The packaging must cost more than that. And it works really, really well...

Maybe the TV's are more than 50 quid. I haven't bought one recently but the point is they're NOT 500 quid so I think a small risk can be taken with them. I actually wired one of mine up with the positive and negative the wrong way round (because I'm incredibly stupid from time to time) and all it did was fail to turn on! I then put it the right way round and it was fine. 

I think a lot of this protection built into modern electronics is because they are global products and have to deal not only with our nice stable European supplies but widely variable ones in developing countries as well. If you're going to make a TV to sell it all over the world you may as well put a voltage stabiliser/polarity protector into it rather than making a different model for each country. Especially if doing so is cheap!

Cheers. I'm off to bed before I get into more bother with 'her indoors'.

Mark


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"The saving on my motorhome of making everything 12v (two TV's, pace 12v box, laptop computer, my beard trimmers (seriously), battery chargers for my model helicopters and electronic flight instruments and everything else I could convert) is a reduction of about 50% in our electricity consumption per day. And I don't have to listen to all those nasty false 'low voltage' alarms going off on the mains inverters all the time. "

Mark,

Inverters run at >90% efficiency provided you buy one the right size. And low voltage alarms only sound if your batteries are flat or your wiring is inadequate.

Quite what buying decisions you must have made to lose 50% of your battery consumption as waste heat in your inverter I hate to think.

Dave


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

Dave

"Inverters run at >90% efficiency provided you buy one the right size. And low voltage alarms only sound if you batteries are flat or your wiring is inadequate. 

Quite what buying decisions you must have made to lose 50% of your battery consumption as waste heat in your inverter I hate to think. "

With the greatest respect your mathematics and assumtions are wrong. There MAY be inverters out there that run at 90% efficiency but the small cheap ones that are used to power LCD TV's would be more like 75% in my experience, especially at lower currents where the proportion lost to heat goes up exponentially compared to the output power. 90% would only be achievable at very optimum outputs and is the figure always quoted by the manufacturer.

What you forget is that you then need a transformer to reduce the 240v you've just created back to 12v for the TV again. Nearly all electronics runs at low voltages so the same is true for a Satellite Box, battery charger, mobile phone charger or what have you even if you can't see the transformer as it will be built in. Transformers typically run in the 80-90% efficiency range but small ones are particularly bad for tidal magnetic losses for technical reasons and may be as low as 50% efficient.

Using your figure for the inverter and an optomistic 85% efficiency for the transformer we get 0.9 * 0.85 = 0.76 efficiency. Not bad and perhaps tolerable. Using my more realistic figures of 75% for the inverter and around 75% for the transformer we get 0.75 * 0.75 = 0.56 or around half as I said in my earlier post.

MEASURED changes as opposed to theoretical ones in my van are as follows. LCD TV 3 amps via the inverter, 1.8 direct. Pace 12v box 1 amp as opposed to Pace 240v box via inverter 2.5amps. Similar gains are made when using the laptop or other electronics.

Sitting watching telly in my van with the sound system running (0.5amps), and LED lights on (1.5amps) is as follows

Using inverters = 3+2.5+0.5+1.5 = 7.5 amps
Without inverters = 1.8+1+0.5+1.5 = 4.8 amps

Not quite half the power but not far off I think you'd agree. QED... This is all very important to me as I live in my van for 5 months a year and never use hook-up so I rely totally on my 100w solar panel for all our energy needs. In the summer I never have a problem with it but before all this removal of surplus inverters we certainly did.

As far as the alarms go they shouldn't go off unless you have a flat battery etc. but in my experience they often give false alarms when you load them as the appliance powers up or if you are near their power limit. No matter what if you don't have them they can't annoy you...

Never question an engineer on his logic or you get ten page thesis proving he was right all along... 

Cheers, Mark


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## Ian_n_Suzy (Feb 15, 2009)

Hi,

Im not saying this is right. But we also just use the "Fused Cigar Lighter to the 12v connection direct" setup.

Thus far we have had no problems doing this for some time, on Motorboats and now on our Motorhome. As an example our LCD TV / DVD Player, Comag Satellite Box / Pace Sky Box, Reversing Camera / Monitor are all plugged direct into the 12v system via homemade Cigar Lighter Wiring. They all function fine.

There, i've gone and put the moccas on it. It'll be jiggered next time I go to use it, guaranteed.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Now i am really confused.

DAve p :?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Mark,

A switch mode inverter will run at peak efficiency of ~95% at around 50% of rated load, dropping to 90% at 100% of rated load. Below 50% loading the efficiency drops due to the quiescent load. Make sure you know what the quiescent load is (true quiescent, not no-load current, which can be artificially low due to internal switching). If you doubt these figures, just search MHF for previous quotes, reference and efficiency curves, both from me and even from engineers, as this seems important to you! (An engineer in WHAT by the way?)

You have indicated your load is typically 4.8amps. In that situation I would buy a Sterling coke can inverter, rated at 100W:
> Sterling Coke Can 100W inverter <
To quote from Sterling's website - you'd get on like a house on fire with Charles Sterling as he is a dyed-in-the-wool engineer as well. Just phone him and you'll instantly see what I mean . I suggest starting with the claim his inverters false alarm :twisted: :twisted:



> When running low power equipment for long periods such as televisions, videos, refrigerators or computers, it is vital to have an inverter with low 'quiescent' current (the actual current the inverter takes to run itself when in operation). This quiescent current can vary dramatically from 0.7 amps for switch mode inverters, 2 - 5 amps for transformer inverters and 25 amps for rotary converters. Inverters that have a high quiescent current are usually fitted with a 'power saver' circuit to switch the inverter off when not required, switching on only when a load is detected. Beware of inverters with this type of circuit as this circuit is designed to mask the high quiescent current of the inverter when on line. It is very important to distinguish between the off load current of an inverter (with a power save circuit) and the actual quiescent current of the inverter when in actual use. This information is not readily available from most companies. A typical portable phone battery on recharge would require about 1 amp an hour for 12 hours, a total of 12 amp/hours. To provide this output a good switch mode inverter would actually use about 15 amp/hours, a transformer based inverter about 40 amp/hours and a rotary converter about 250 amp/hours, all to do the same task.


You will note the specific example here is for only a 1A load giving 75% efficiency. Your larger load will be much more efficient.

As to the application equipment efficiency running off 12V or mains, that is equipment specific due to internal design (usually penny pinching) and can go one way or the other. I've measured dual voltage equipments running significantly more efficient from mains. And vice versa.

Dave


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

" Make sure you know what the quiescent load is "

You don't need to know any of this you just turn the thing on and put your hand on it when running no load and notice it's getting hot. If it's producing heat and there's no load at all at this point it's 0% efficient! At very low loads like charging a mobile I suspect (but don't really know) that the heat is a far greater part of the output than any useful work being done.

"I suggest starting with the claim his inverters false alarm "

I expect his are fine as the Battery to Battery charger I have in my old self-build was a magnificent bit of kit. However I find many inverters give false low battery alarms a lot of the time including one of the two that I junked from my Autotrail when I bought it.

All of this quoting of efficiency curves etc. is fair enough but why bother with all this when you can plug the unit in to a 12v socket and see if it works and then do without the inverter if it does? If it doesn't then use the inverter as you have no choice.

Anybody with the most tenuous grasp of physics can see that there is no way any unit can work more efficiently by transforming 12v up to 240v and then back down to 12v again to make it work! It would break all the laws of thermodynamics and the conservation of energy if it could do so. It would make the inventor very rich, though...

This was the point I was initially trying to make before we all plainly had far too much time on our hands and got stuck into a pile of figures. 

Incidentally my 4.8 amps was made up of lights and stereo of 2 amps which ran on the 12v anyway and then 2.8 amps of telly and sky box which were originally 5.5 when run via inverters and not the whole 4.8 amps you mention in your reply. The Pace 12v box takes about an amp and replaced the original Pace home box which is not, of course, really comparible as the 12v box will have been produced to have a very low current draw and the home one wouldn't. However these were real measured figures and not estimates so no matter what the theory says this is what my multimeter (and the Sargent Unit's built in ameter) measured which means junking the inverters saves me about 20 amp hours a day on average - a tidy saving.

What type of Engineer? - Mechanical and Electrical a long time ago before I discoverd how to actually get a life and moved to the Alps to go snowboarding, party a lot and have a very nice time with a lot of willing chalet girls!!!  Unfortunately I also touch type at nearly 80 words a minute meaning verbosity is a problem on forums as I'm pretty much typing what I'm thinking...

So, for the original person who asked the question and is probably lost in all this techno babble now I'd say plug whatever it is into the 12v supply and see if it works. If it does it WILL work with less current via that method providing you are in the ball park for voltage. If it doesn't work buy an inverter and accept the slightly lower (or much lower depending on your measurements/viewpoint) efficiency with this method. If you have an inverter you're unlikely to cause much trouble by trying the device on the 12v supply via a suitable cable you can make up and, again, if it doesn't work go back to the inverter.

SIMPLES....!

Happy New Year to all, cheers, Mark


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"Anybody with the most tenuous grasp of physics"

Ah. That's my problem.

Dave


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> Now i am really confused.
> 
> DAve p :?


Your not the only one.

Wobby :wink:


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

""Anybody with the most tenuous grasp of physics" 

Ah. That's my problem. 

Dave"

Mine has always been that pesky supply of willing chalet girls. I'm sure I'd have got a lot more done without that distraction. Now I have a daughter I can see I'm exactly the kind of person I'm going to hate in about 18 years time... 

Have a good New Year, cheers, Mark


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