# Monaco width



## DABurleigh

I had a chat with Travelworld today:
http://www.travelworldrv.co.uk/
I've complimented them on the website previously:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-188099.html#188099
Their handling of my web enquiry by phone was prompt, efficient and courteous.

I'll come to my main question in a mo, but I also asked about short diesel pushers and storage. Jim had posted about this recently. In response to my surmising that exterior storage was limited for a shorter diesel pusher compared like-for-like with a petrol engine up front, they were adamant that the reverve was true due to the coach chassis used with pass-through storage underneath the vehicle. So, apparently, you don't pay a storage penalty to gain the advantage of a pusher. The shortest pusher is 34ft, however. I was invited to visit and compare.

For a petrol engine in a shorter RV, by the way, the Monarch SVE 30SFS with single full-length slide looks like a lot of volume for the length:
> Monaco Monarch SVE 30ft RV <

My main question was about width, as I had been perusing the Monaco website and the width of 100.5 inches intrigued me:
http://www.monacocoach.com/models/monaco.aspx?content=chart&model=cayman

MicknPat had previously established that their width was specified as a sidewall-to-sidewall measurement. This is 0.1" too big, before adding wheel arch trims, door handles, awnings etc.

Travelworld said that their vehicles are modified by Monaco before export to the UK. The 100.5" sidewall-to-sidewall dimension "has some tolerance", different fittings are used, in particular the awnings are roof awnings, and the DVLA and VOSA are content that they are UK legal. That must be be some "tolerance", however. They also claimed this registration cannot be revoked once granted. At one point they mentioned registration certifying the vehicle as road legal. I asked whether the owner received a certificate to this effect but unfortunately not.

The following DfT link is more specific and helpful about registering an imported motorhome than anything the DVLA or VOSA publishes to my knowledge. One can infer that new motorhomes are exempt from all "tests", yet clearly many relevant requirements for road legal use are stipulated, including width.
> DfT link <

I can only assume that Monaco, having been on the "legal" list, then relegated to the "illegal" list, are now back on the "legal" list again. But I am still bemused how 100.5" sidewall-to-sidewall, less any "tolerance", plus wheel arch trims and door handles, is still less than 100.4".

Dave


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## 101411

Hi Dave

Simple answer. They are to wide.

The rest im afraid is down to the new owner to deal with. It may have a number plate on it but that doesnt make it legal. My car has a number plate but if its got bald tyres its not legal is it??

Im afraid its back to the 1 rule for Main Dealers and another rule for the rest of us thing.

My advice (for what its worth!!) Steer clear and buy a legal coach there are plenty out there and you wont be constantly looking over your shoulder. 

There is also the insurance thing. If the insurers can find a way of not paying a claim you can bet they will find it and im sure there is a full chapter in the "How Not To Pay An Insurance Claim On American RVs In The UK" handbook about over width vehicles.

Dazzer


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## 101411

On another note I wonder what Monaco would have to say if you phoned them in the USA and asked them to provide you with a letter saying their vehicles were legal and approved for the UK market.

Id also ask to speak to the "European Marketing Manager" and ask him for a letter detailing all the fundamental changes they make to their vehicles to make them UK compliant.

That would be an interesting conversation!!

Dazzer


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## DABurleigh

One can always use this tactic with a UK dealer:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-228131.html#228131

And I have never been persuaded by the DVLA "corruption" argument being in favour of the big boys. Officials in the UK may be barking, but they are not corrupt.

Dave


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## 101411

So are you looking at buying 1 then?? And if so will you be handing over the letter for them to sign before agreeing to buy it??

What if they refuse (as im sure they will!!)


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## DandM

_And I have never been persuaded by the DVLA "corruption" argument being in favour of the big boys. Officials in the UK may be barking, but they are not corrupt._

mmmm, the validation of registering "unlawful" vehicles to certain persons only............ sorry but thats corruption Dave

That Cayman looks fabulous but as Dazzer rightly points out, stick to something legal, the insurance aspect would give me sleepless nights alone.

Dennis


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## DABurleigh

I am doing advance research. Years in advance  I first mulled the van I have now some 6 years before buying it, with no other motorhome in between. It's worked for me so far  Murvi say their customer lead time between first interest and purchase averages over 3 years (maybe their little-less-than-1-year delivery contributes .....).

If I were to buy from a UK dealer, yes, I would practice what I preach, using a letter that refers to the dealers's responsibility under the Road Traffic Act only to sell vehicles that are road legal. And I WOULD walk away if they didn't sign it. And I WOULD make merry hell about it should it ever happen.

As to the conspiracy theories of corruption, all I received to this was a deafening silence:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-190718.html#190718

Dave


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## Scotjimland

DABurleigh said:


> I am doing advance research. Years in advance  I first mulled the van I have now some 6 years before buying it, with no other motorhome in between. It's worked for me so far


G'morning Dave

with plenty of time to research and no doubt to save some of the folding stuff, play it safe mate and buy European .. :wink:

http://www.luxurylaunches.com/transport/volkner_mobil_rv_a_car_carrying_motor_coach.php

you know you want to 8)


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## Rapide561

*RV width*

Hello

Since cancelling the order for the new Swift, I have been looking at RV's, namely a Damon Daybreak. I like the external look of the van, and also the interiors look good. I cannot comment on the mechanical side etc.

I have learned, however, that Damon's are overwidth, and so decided against.

Russell


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## olley

Hi people keep referring to insurance, here whats three high court judges said in the destination RV case:

"In the light of this limited evidence I conclude that non-compliance with the � Regulations so far as the width of the motorhomes is concerned is not a matter material to risk or to premium, that such breach does not, therefore, need to be disclosed to motor insurers and that failure to do so would not be a material non-disclosure entitling insurers to avoid the policy.

Also from that case, this what the NFU agent said NFU had said to him:

NFU had indicated to him that it would not decline a claim or seek to avoid a policy for material non-disclosure on that account because it did not regard such illegality as material to risk or to premium.

I don't think the there is corruption either, the big dealers are allowed by the DVLA to simply register their vehicle's without inspection, (can't remember the name of the system) small dealers and the general public can't. 

Unless the DVLA withdraw that system, the big dealers can just keep on registering their vehicles. 

Driving a possibly overwidth RV doesn't worry me, NFU are aware that it might be over width, and the DVLA don't seem interested. If by chance that changes then I will deal with that then, Until then keep on trucking.

Another thought, most of them breach the C&U rear overhang regs as well.  

Olley


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## zaskar

[quote="ScotJimlandhttp://www.luxurylaunches.com/transport/volkner_mobil_rv_a_car_carrying_motor_coach.php

you know you want to 8)[/quote]

As a matter of interest, can anybody actually find a link to the Volkner company so that an anorack like me can view photo's and floorplans?
EVERY single link I've tried off Google go to a news or magazine article.


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## Scotjimland

After a bit of trawling ..

http://www.volkner-mobil.de/


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## zaskar

ScotJimland said:


> After a bit of trawling ..
> 
> http://www.volkner-mobil.de/


Well I was gonna get one but hey dont do a slide out!!!!!!! 8O 8)


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## MicknPat

Dave,

I think I have already said this on another thread but for those who missed it.

The SMMT at the beginning of 2006 at the request of the DVLA drew up a list of ALL motor-homes British, European and American which they called a REGISTER.

Now the author of this register is a Mr Carmelo Aquilina.The register shows the widths and lengths of each MH then places the MH's in either the 'approved' or 'over-sized' list depending on their size.


I have spoken at length with and he explained that the figures he used to make the register came from either the manufactures web site or brochure.

He also told me that he had written to every American RV manufacturer requesting dimensions for the register and only Monaco and Winnebago had replied.

So unless the register actually says an RV has been measured by the DVLA a 2550mm RV is in the approved list because it's manufacturer says its 2550mm.

So if Fleetwood were to put on their brochure that their RV's were 2550mm then they would be in the approved list.

I asked Mr Aquilina, " Who then is liable if an RV on the 'approved list' is bought to the UK and found to be over and refused registration?"

His reply, "The manufacture as they have given false details in their brochure"

We finished our conversation with the good news in that since the register had been produced NO motor-homes on the 'approved' list had been refused registration..........well none that he'd heard of :?


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## Rapide561

*RV*

Hello

All in all it seems just another grey area in the world of motorhoming..,.

Russell


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## zaskar

*Re: RV*



Rapide561 said:


> Hello
> All in all it seems just another grey area in the world of motorhoming..,.
> Russell


Sorry Russel, there's nothing grey at all about it.
The UK RV dealers have been lying to the buying public for years (me included! :evil: )and are STILL getting away with it. It's about time they were bought to task by the law. Only then will anything be done about this issue one way or the other. .......and I'm really not convinced as to which way it would go!
Even the new Monaco spouts that it's legal cos it now has a roof mounted sun canopy........so why when you look at ANY RV or motorhome magazine do you still see RV's for sale with side mounted sun canopies and slide out canopies when the new wording CLEARLY says that it is illegal to knowingly sell (or adverise for sale) and overwidth vehicle?
........and another thing. I've seen a copy of a letter from Mike Snell (Senior Vice President of Monaco corporation) that states that they do NOT recomend that slide out toppers are removed to make the vehicle UK legal because the sidewall seals cannot cope on thier own!
Would you buy a £100,000+ vehicle knowing that?
EVERY one of ther UK dealers has inserted wording on thier websites to the affect that it's up to purchasers to verify dimensions and legality.
This is utterly disgracefull and people are STILL being misled. I only wish that I wasn't as green as I was when I took the dealers word on legality because I WOULD have walked away.


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## MicknPat

*Re: RV*



Rapide561 said:


> All in all it seems just another grey area in the world of motorhoming..,.
> 
> Russell


Russell,

Not really, if you wish to pay the high price of buying from a UK dealer then there is no problem once the RV is registered, it's only those poor private importers who wish to have the same rights as those UK dealers to import from the USA who have to worry 

Because the BIG dealers have told the DVLA that ALL the RVs they import are legal the DVLA except that, the small dealer and private importer get measured :evil: :evil:


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## aultymer

Bringing together 2 RV problems, ie, Width and Overhang. 
Leaving out any discussion of how some dealers get away with it - 
If it is illegal to 'offer for sale' or sell oversize vehicles, how do you as an owner get rid of it?

Olley- I feel it is a bit naive to keep quoting the court case where the judges ruled that the width had no bearing on that claim - if there is damage to the side of any vehicle then the insurance company could claim that illegal width was a factor and refuse to pay 

To explain my interest - when the wife suggested buying a 'camper' she was thinking 'Dormobile' and when I agreed I was thinking'Winnebago'!! 
We have compromised for the time being but I still like the idea of a bigger, but legal, van.


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## olley

HI alutymer, sorry don't agree, the judges clearly stated that width was not a reason to void the insurance, and NFU stated the same, so therefore if I have an accident no matter what gets damaged they will not refuse to pay because of over width. (They might for other reasons) :wink: 

Hi Zaskar are you saying that if you had know yours was over width you wouldn't have bought it? I did some research before we bought ours and decided over width or not, If we found one we liked we would buy it. 

Its called "Risk Assessment" :lol: :lol: whats the chances of the DVLA saying its illegal? and the same goes for the insurance. If they do I poop out. My money, my risk.

I think if you you are going to worry about width, length, overhang, fuel, position of the TV plus no doubt a host of other minor infringments. 
DON'T BUY ONE.

Olley


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## Rapide561

*Re: RV*



MicknPat said:


> Rapide561 said:
> 
> 
> 
> All in all it seems just another grey area in the world of motorhoming..,.
> 
> Russell
> 
> 
> 
> Russell,
> 
> Not really, if you wish to pay the high price of buying from a UK dealer then there is no problem once the RV is registered, it's only those poor private importers who wish to have the same rights as those UK dealers to import from the USA who have to worry
> 
> Because the BIG dealers have told the DVLA that ALL the RVs they import are legal the DVLA except that, the small dealer and private importer get measured :evil: :evil:
Click to expand...

It is a very interesting subject, all in all.

I don't want to start a bun fight, but is there any risk that you could buy an RV - already registered etc - and then have it measured at a later date - a random check for example?

Russell


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## olley

Hi Russell, never heard of it but its possible, if they did and felt really nasty, and you were over width they could hit you with a PG9. (it means you ain't going nowhere mate) lowloader job.  

Olley


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## 101368

olley said:


> Its called "Risk Assessment" :lol: :lol: whats the chances of the DVLA saying its illegal? and the same goes for the insurance. If they do I poop out. My money, my risk.
> 
> Olley


Interesting attitude. So your admittedly illegal RV is involved in a fatal accident. Your insurance company refuses to pay out. Surely it's the victims dependents who lose out.


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## DABurleigh

Jim - I have deja vu 
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-159700.html#159700

"the big dealers are allowed by the DVLA to simply register their vehicle's without inspection"
Olley - that is certainly not what Travelworld said. They said they had to drive the things to the DVLA offices for measurement just as everyone has to.

Dave


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## spooky

MicknPat said:


> Dave,
> 
> I think I have already said this on another thread but for those who missed it.
> 
> The SMMT at the beginning of 2006 at the request of the DVLA drew up a list of ALL motor-homes British, European and American which they called a REGISTER.
> 
> Now the author of this register is a Mr Carmelo Aquilina.The register shows the widths and lengths of each MH then places the MH's in either the 'approved' or 'over-sized' list depending on their size.
> 
> Is this list available for public viewing?
> 
> cheers
> Malc


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## LC1962

Here it is Malc

http://www.smmt.co.uk/motorhomes/Motorhome_Directory.pdf

although it is far from complete as there are several RVs which are not yet listed despite having been registered in the past 12-18 months.


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## ruffingitsmoothly

Hi All

I'm new to this forum but just thought I would add my ten pence worth.

In Oct 06 I bought a 34' single slide Monaco Windsor from Houston Texas, after delays such as having it delivered to Baltimore, Thanksgiving and rough seas causing shipping delays it finally arrived in Liverpool December 19th, further delays with Christmas meant I was at last able to collect it on Jan 5th.

I drove it back and prepared it for Mot and did the 240volt conversion everything went well, hardest thing was trying get the thick wiring they use to bend inside the new socket boxes.

The RV passed the Mot and on 1st February I went to register it (expecting problems due to all the hoohah over width) I had no problem whatsoever the young clerk took away my paperwork was away for about 5 mins then returned I said ok? She replied "no problem it's on the list"
That was that! Our first trip was to Sheepcote on 2nd Feb.

The whole process had no real problems whatsoever, may I add I am not a dealer and as such would not have had the preferred treatment allegedly give to such.

Regards Pat


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## passionwagon

emgee said:


> olley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its called "Risk Assessment" :lol: :lol: whats the chances of the DVLA saying its illegal? and the same goes for the insurance. If they do I poop out. My money, my risk.
> 
> Olley
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting attitude. So your admittedly illegal RV is involved in a fatal accident. Your insurance company refuses to pay out. Surely it's the victims dependents who lose out.
Click to expand...

 8O Not so as the insurance MUST pay victims but your damaged vehicle will not be covered. BTW the insurers will come after you for recompense. Pip pip :wink:


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## 104705

passionwagon said:


> emgee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> olley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its called "Risk Assessment" :lol: :lol: whats the chances of the DVLA saying its illegal? and the same goes for the insurance. If they do I poop out. My money, my risk.
> 
> Olley
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting attitude. So your admittedly illegal RV is involved in a fatal accident. Your insurance company refuses to pay out. Surely it's the victims dependents who lose out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 8O Not so as the insurance MUST pay victims but your damaged vehicle will not be covered. BTW the insurers will come after you for recompense. Pip pip :wink:
Click to expand...

If you have a standard unmodified vehicle, and the insurance company accepts the risk, where is the get out clause?


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