# Efoy System



## carol

I expect many will have seen the Efoy Fuel Cells advertised in the Motorhome press over the last few months.

Has ANYONE fitted one, and if so what do they think of it, does it work, is it worth the money....

Previously we had 2 x solar panels and 2 x leisure batteries, which did serve us well, but on one occassion we found that when it had been wet and cold that we ran out of steam...not fully, but we noticed a much quicker drop in our battery power..... and would like to avoid that. Also with solar panels is does help if you are in line with the sun a bit, to get the best benefit from them, and sometimes if it is hot, I would prefer to be in the shade....

Now from being at Dusseldorf this last week, and speaking to the makers, we were impressed with the ideas, we are considering adding them to our specification of our new motorhome.

I understand, that they work by using methanol and air to charge your batteries, but as it then is technical, my brain isn't able to properly understand it all. We also believe that it is automatic or can be operated manually (and solar panels can also be used in conjunction with the system, say for summer) but works 24/7.... 

Does anyone have any useful knowledge, or comments please....a response asap would be really appreciated before we order tomorrow....

Thanks for reading

Carol


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## Superk

I considered the EFOY system then realised how many gallons of methanol would have to be carried or obtained and it made it a non-starter for me. Not wanting to have solar panels or holes in the roof but something that worked automatically when most needed (when its dark and most electric is being used) I opted for a Gasperini Self-Energy. It fits neatly under the van, runs on the LPG you already have, and if switched on, cuts in automatically whenever the voltage drops to a certain level on the battery to charge it back up and its quiet. Conrad-Anderson did a great fitting job. Self-Energy


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## Boff

Hi,

the EFOY system is a fuel cell. Its main advantage over solar cells is that it works day and night under all weather conditions. Its main advantage over a generator is that it operates practically without any noise and without any smelly exhaust fumes. It is also practically maintenance-free. Disadvantages are: Still rather expensive, and you need the special methanol containers for fuel that you cannot buy just 'round the corner.

Probably, or hopefully, the price will come under pressure next year, as Truma (the company with the heaters and boilers) will start field tests with a fuel cell that is powered by ordinary LPG, so propane or butane gas.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## DABurleigh

And users are already being engaged by a firm local to me in Basingstoke to beta-test a decent power (not like that Efoy wimp) fuel cell direct from LPG. Early adopters should not bother asking how much it costs, however ...

Carol - certain MHF members who sell Efoy didn't like my advice on it. So, factually, if you want a sustained 4 Amps charging current from a silent generator requiring litres of pure methanal a day for ~£2000, go right ahead.

Dave


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## 97984

We also looked at these as an option sometime ago. Came to the conclusion that the return was not worth the price tag. fitted 130w solar panel & 2 leisure batts instead.


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## eddievanbitz

Hi Van Bitz were the first UK company to import, advertise and exhibit Smart Fuel Cells from SFC Germany. I drove down and collected personally the first SFC unit that came into the Country.

We were, and still are concerned about the distribution of Methanol. There are several problems with the supply and distribution for example. Yes you can buy it in bulk and take it with you, but why would you want to carry a dangerous liquid around that, when ignited burns invisibly?

Getting the stuff shipped? there are very few carriers who have the necessary licence to carry Methanol, and of those that do, will only undertake a delivery to a home address with persuasion. So it is in reality near impossible to get it sent to a camp site for example. Plastimo a huge multi national marine company have a marine version of the SFC and they claim that there is a European network of Methanol stockists. They just don't seem to exist yet! but to be fair it has only been out about three years!

We have been monitoring a UK Company that are confident that they will crack the market, using LPG which of course will be absolutely fantastic for people that want to be more self sufficient.

The future of Fuel Cells is exciting because don't forget, for most folk in the UK in the Autumn and winter solar panels are a complete and utter waste of money and payload. 

The summer when 12 volt consumption is minimal and you get up in the sun and go to bed in the twilight the van is little more than a bed to get into at night. 

The winter when you put heating and lights on first thing in the morning, use the facilities in the van as it is too cold and wet to go to the shower block, the 12 volt system is being hammered all day long and the solar panel is producing nothing significant.

The best advice , at the moment, that we would give our customers is to turn up with enough power to last the duration of your stay, rather than try to replenish during the stay. 

A couple of decent, extra batteries and a good split charging system is much cheaper than a solar panel, loads cheaper than a Fuel Cell and, unlike a genny makes no noise at all, so you wont upset everyone else (other than by being able to use all of your appliances when their batteries are flat because the are relying on their solar panel at the New Year Rally)

Hope this helps

Eddie


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## 97984

Yep

Solar Panel-March-October

EHU-November-February


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## DABurleigh

eddievanbitz said:


> We have been monitoring a UK Company that are confident that they will crack the market, using LPG which of course will be absolutely fantastic for people that want to be more self sufficient.


Eddie,

Voller?
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-211523.html#211523

Dave


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## eddievanbitz

Hi Dave

yep, fantastic potential

Are you going to York?


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## DABurleigh

No, Eddie. I have been in recent years as it happily coincided with a Sheffield Uni run, but son finished in July. Too far to go for just another show.

Shepton this weekend for me, though won't get there until later on Friday I guess.

See the Voller kit is in an MCL motorhome. Couldn't afford it without the fuel cell, let alone with :-(

Dave


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## 96783

A very interesting topic. We too have just returned from the Dusseldorf Show (just an hour down the road). It was our first visit and we stayed on the site stellplatz for two nights and enjoyed two days wandering the halls. We had hoped to buy a new table and some LED lights having almost completely fitted out the Sunliner with LEDs and just have 4 more to do. Contrary to all the advice we had received we've found them warm and that they give better light at one eigth the consumption of the halogens they replaced. The show is incredibly well organised and, in our opinion, makes Earls Court and the NEC look the poor relations except for the Accessories Halls. One hall contained suppliers who could only supply manugacturers or wholesalers and the other did not have the sort of accessories that we expected to find. So we found neither tables nor LEDs for sale to the general public.

That seems to have got away from the topic but do read on. We have replaced the table, although not quite in the way we expected. However, we have ordered an EFOY fuel cell, having gone very carefully through our average to high consumption days and the rate of consumption of methanol as confirmed by the salesman and the sales literature. We also receved, and recorded, the comment by Oliver Freitag on the stand that if it didn't do what they said it did or we were dissatified with it we could send it back and get our money back. Now that does beg the question of how much you trust the rep or salesman! 

Yes, it is expensive, but so, equally, is the LPG generator and the running costs will probably more or less equate. Of course cost does come into it and at some point that will be the deciding factor, but for us it fits the bill. If cost were the main criteria we would probably still be in a caravan or even a tent. Yes, methanol is a dangerous liquid and we are investigating carrying the spare container in a fire resistant bag or box as a "just in case".

Methanol resupply is not a problem here in Germany and we have the updated list of stockists for mainland Europe, but oddly none are shown for UK, although we know that it is available in UK.

Weight in our present van is not a problem and we carry two large solar panels and two 110 aH batteries and a 2000W inverter. The very light fuel cell will replace those in our new van which is smaller and lighter with a greatly reduced weight limit. The solar panels, even in summer only charge our batteries to 13.9volts and the voltage drop during only one day/evening can be quite dramatic, albeit we have never got down to the yellow or red boxes on the display. The fuel cell will charge to 14.5volts ala mains charging and do so automatically to ensure full batteries at all times.

So thank you to Eddie and Dave, whose original post I remember quite well, and was not in the least offended by it, for your helpful (if contrary to my views) advice. After his original post I looked at the Voller web site and was quite sceptical of the company which may be doing them a completer injustice and I acknowledge that.


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## 108408

*EFOY in the UK*

I've also been looking into these fuel cells for motorhome and work applications. Grove are now the UK suppliers and the cells and fuel should be available in the UK from early next year.

I'm amused by the problems people think they may have, when you consider the other flammable materials that work by fuel air explosive mix you carry around! I'll take a hammer to a bottle of methanol if you'll take one to your gas bottle.

It's a top up system! if your drawing power, you're using Methanol. If your batteries charged, you ain't.

As per cost, I've just been quoted about £15 per ten litres which will last 4 weeks of constant use. 1.1 litres per KW hour. So £4 a week. That's expensive? Cheaper than bottled water.

I note some are buying Methanol from other sources, so that's aimed at other use. If you run your car off lighter fluid, it's gonna cost.

Plus the additives in "pure" fuel vary considerably, these systems use platinum catylitic vconverters similar to your exhausts. Mess these up-. Has a life of about 10 years making a cost of £220 a year, another £4 a year. That's £8 per week.

These sysyems have been going in Germany and France for years. If it don't work, if it's not cost effective, would it still be available and being fitted as standard on some of the leading makes?


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## eddievanbitz

It is the methanol that is impossible to get in the real world, and most carriers are not licensed to carry it, and the ones that are object to delivering to private address's

Much better is the Voller system available through Unipart Leisure (ex Burdens and Joy and King) The Emerald fuel cell runs off LPG which is more sensible. MCL motorhomes are fitting the Emerald (Voller) as standard on their motorhomes

Up in Scotland or in the middle of Spain I know I could get a bottle of gas, but refined methanol? don't think so

Just my opinion

Cheers

Eddie


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## erneboy

hello, 

I recently fitted an Efoy 1200, find it fine. Not cheap to buy, but during the winter if you want to go wild camping for any length of time you need to charge your batteries. I have a 100w solar panel which keeps us fully charged for most of the year but has no chance in winter. Supplies of Efoy fuel can be difficult but running costs compare favourably with the alternatives. A litre of Efoy fuel lasts me several days, 5lt lasts two weeks or so.


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## fatwallet

*efoy fuel cells*

hi piratedave. we also have a fuel cell fitted as std on our hymer s820. please can you tell me where you obtain your methanol at £15 per 10 litres. kind regards. len


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## 107558

eddievanbitz said:


> It is the methanol that is impossible to get in the real world, and most carriers are not licensed to carry it, and the ones that are object to delivering to private address's
> 
> Much better is the Voller system available through Unipart Leisure (ex Burdens and Joy and King) The Emerald fuel cell runs off LPG which is more sensible. MCL motorhomes are fitting the Emerald (Voller) as standard on their motorhomes
> 
> Up in Scotland or in the middle of Spain I know I could get a bottle of gas, but refined methanol? don't think so
> 
> Just my opinion
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Eddie


Eddie,

What sort of price are Voller Emerald Fuel Cells?


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## Annsman

Just had an e-mail from Voller. The LPG Emerald Fuel Cell will set you back a meagre 20 THOUSAND POUNDS!! They expect them to sell out quickly so get in the queue now!!


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## eddievanbitz

They are loads of money and working very well in very expensive boats. No one is suggesting lashing out £20K for a motorhome, but, once the technology is mass produced the price will fall, as production increases.

The smart advice is to wait a while 8)


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## Annsman

The sales guy who I e-mailed said the same Eddie, but as a manufacturer surely if you offered them for sale at a competative price you would recoup more of your money quicker than limiting your market to the very, very few who can afford a luxury yacht.

I bet even if they priced them the same as an EFOY they would out sell them because of the simplicity and ease of fuel supply would be the thing that attracts them to "vanners".

Some manufacturers are starting to go down the fixed gas tank route now too so to offer them to van constructors to be included in the build would also increase dramatically their market.

Good grief, do none of these people watch "Dragons' Den"!


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## davidcampervanstuff

eddievanbitz said:


> They are loads of money and working very well in very expensive boats. No one is suggesting lashing out £20K for a motorhome, but, once the technology is mass produced the price will fall, as production increases.
> 
> The smart advice is to wait a while 8)


On the other hand it's nice to be able to have a comparison which makes Efoy's fuel cells look dirt cheap and reminds us that Efoys are available now, not at some always-receding point in the future - up until when we can just grin and bear those long dark winter nights (and grey summers if 2008 is anything to go) eking out our limited battery power.

I confess to having zero knowledge of the Voller beyond the postings here but on this alone I'd guess that there is not one in the offing which has an output, dimensions and weight which make it any kind of solution for a very significant part (the greatest part?) of the motorhome population: vehicles of modest size, with users who have a less than gigantic power requirement.

The Efoy fits into the bottom of our wardrobe; it's silent enough for us to sleep happlly with it close by; it certainly doesn't disturb any neighbours; it has ample power at 130Ah per day (in tune with the needs of a far greater number of motorhomers and campervanners than the projected level of 'competing' products, if they were available).

Sure, fuel distribution is not yet as easy as we would like but it is available at an increasing number of outlets and also by mail order although the latter is not entirely without problems. There are plenty of people in the trade who are willing to support Efoy and I believe that this will ensure improving supplies.

Besides, it's not difficult for users to carry enough fuel to last a trip. No, it's not gallons and gallons and gallons.

We've just had a two-week break and stayed on a variety of sites, some with electric hookup, some not - about half and half I guess. Some days we moved on or drove out, sometimes the vehicle stayed put without moving for three or four days. Some days we got some contribution from our small 40 solar panel - but not a lot. Some evenings we sucked out around 35Ah in one go from the battery, to power our 500 watt Remoska 230v cooker. Other times we cooked on gas. We enjoyed (electric) toast in the morning and watched satellite TV at night. Sadly, because this meant work, the laptop (and therefore inverter, another power draw) was on for many more hours than I'd have liked each day.

So how many gallons and gallons did all this take? Well litres actually: we used one 5 litre cartridge. The two spares which we took with us remained tucked away.

Does this mean that the Efoy 1600 runs for two weeks continuously on 5 litres of fuel? Of course not, but what it does demonstrate is that in a mixed usage pattern the reality is that you run the fuel cell only when you need to. But - and because you can - you always enjoy all the power you need. It was a great feeling. Or, as a customer of ours described it only a couple of week ago, "Absolutely fabulous".

The Efoy is an extremely highly developed product that does it's job efficiently and without fuss. Seems to me that any alternatives would have an awful lot of catching up to do.

Regards

David


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## Batch

Have just bought an Efoy1600 and couldn't be more happy or self sufficient. We are really pleased with the whole package. What price independence?


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## EJB

What price was independence???

Edit:- I've answered my own question:-

Efoy


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## erneboy

Good for you Batch. Keep us posted on here when you have used it for a while please. 

I have been using one for over two years and find it quite simply excellent. I have had only slight problems in getting fuel and carry only 10lt at a time as that is quite sufficient for my needs. I have found that fuel can be mail ordered readily in the UK (I get mine from David at Campervanstuff) and while travelling in France and Spain there are enough stockists to get more fuel when I need it. Although I always contact any stockist to make sure they actually have it before going there, Alan.


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## eddievanbitz

Hi Batch

Check with your insurers, make sure that you get in writing that they are aware your carrying Methanol.

We sell EFOY and have had customers in a pickle with carrying the methanol.

Adrian Flux, Comfort and MTC don't allow methanol to be carried at all. 

As a EFOY retailer my argument has always been the same, if the insurer is happy, they will write and tell you and nothing is lost asking them. If asking them opens a can of worms and sets them think that they are unwilling to insure you carrying the fuel, it is better to find out prior to a claim than after 8O 

We were the first company in the UK to import SFC products in 2004 so have experience in this matter.

Webasto are the other UK distributor, but they are finding it hard to find carriers prepared to "legally" distribute the methanol to private address's

Eddie


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## coppo

Eddie
Have you/anybody heard any latest news/update on the lpg powered fuel cells mentioned earlier in this post(over 2 years ago).

PaulnCaz.


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## olley

Hi Truma reckon on late next year, see here: http://www.truma.com/truma05/en/products/detail2_en_249238.html

Olley


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## eddievanbitz

Hi Voller went bust :roll: however, Voller did not make the Fuel Cell they used a product from another manufacturer, so the technology is not lost. And, as Olley has said Truma will be launching a LPG powered unit next year. 

Google LPG powered Fuel Cells and you'll be amazed how close they are.

Eddie


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## DABurleigh

As I have said elsewhere on MHF, Truma may be first to production for the motorhomer but it is just 250watts. A far better offering will come from Ceres Power. Calor have just paid them for the licence to sell their off-mains-gas (that is, propane powered) high power combined heat and power fuel cells for a 5 year period in the UK.

Dave


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## coppo

When are these for sale then Dave?


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## olley

Hi Dave I would have thought 250 watts every hour, for 24 hours would be enough, even for an RV, it is after all equal to around a 20amp charger.

Olley


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## DABurleigh

Full production at a considerable scale in 2011, aimed at the European domestic boiler replacement market. They are well aware of the motorhome market, which is what they stressed to me when they declined my offer to beta-test one  

Olley - quite correct, and if all you want is an Efoy without the methanol pain and grief, buy a Truma VEGA.

But being a geek I always look a stage beyond that. Ceres Power (a JV spin-off from Imperial College London) will have economies of scale (they have bought a £5M production factory in Guildford) and think what silent kWs of electricity and heat will do for simplifying the van. With the fuel cell and just resistance wires you can power the van, including aircon, heat the van, heat water, boil the kettle, cook food on hob and oven, power the fridge (no 3-way necessary), etc.

Dave


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## Batch

I think the thing is you can wait til the cows come home but if you want your independence now then the Efoy is the business. It is lightweight 7Kgs, so quiet I couldn't hear it in the van and when I went outside still couldn't hear it until I opened the locker and then it was a humm! It really is first class and it does what you want it to. It ensures you can be free of hookup in any weather and able to go where you want. Solar panels don't work at the bottom of valleys in ski resorts which is where most sites and aires are.Also the waste product is equal to of the breath of a child ie water vapour I'm made up with it and under 3K fitted I think it's very good value


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## erneboy

I agree with Batch, the Efoy is here working very well now! 

No doubt in time some of these other concepts will develop into products we can buy and when they do we can watch to see how they perform. At some time in the future I will, no doubt, want to replace my Efoy and at that time I shall consider all the options and choose the one which I think best suits my needs. Of course, by then the Efoy will no doubt also have moved on. 

I feel quite justified in making assertive posts about the Efoy as I actually use one and have been doing so for over two years. I am not in a position to comment on the practicalities or performance of other systems as I have no experience of them. 

Ideally we would be able to buy a cheap system with high output which operates on a benign fuel. Science fiction does have a way of becoming science fact and no doubt some day just such a system will become reality. For now it´s Efoy for me, Alan.


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## olley

Hi Dave what sort of efficiency's are they achieving? a site I was on last night was quoting 32-33% for a straight fuel cell, no better than a genny at 10x the cost.

Olley


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## olley

Just been doing some calculations based on Truma's figures, they could well be wrong as my math's is crap.

LPG has an energy density of around 27MJ/L = 7500watts per Litre=15,000watts per Kg

Truma say 110g per hour to get 250watts, so to get 1KW you need 440gm, so roughly its getting 1KW per Litre of LPG 

So to me you burn 1kg of LPG to get 2000watts, when there is potentially 15,000 watts available, seems pretty crap to me.

Olley


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## DABurleigh

Olley, 

Solid Oxide Fuel Cells give around 50% efficiency in the conversion from the hydrocarbon to electricity. But because it is also suited to combined heat and power applications, when heat is required the overall efficiency goes up much further still.

Ceres Power's niche technology is in doing this at a far lower temperature which reduces costs dramatically and suits powers of up to a few kWs. 

Dave


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## olley

Hi having read the Ceres blurb I can't see why anyone would change to one of there boilers, they claim an overall efficency of 92% but condensing boilers are already close to this mark, so given a typical 10year life span of a modern boiler I think you would be unlikely to get your money back before you replaced it.

Olley


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## DABurleigh

I think you ought to tell British Gas they have got their marketing wrong and are throwing millions down the tubes, then 

Or, put another way, if I didn't have a mortgage to pay off, I'd very happily invest in Ceres Power, and despite being a geek, there are VERY few technology stocks that would pass my "own money" test.

Dave


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