# Motorscooter on back



## colail

We have just bought a Chausson flash 8, and want to carry a small motorscooter on the back, which will weigh no more than a 100kg.

Can anybody tell me if this is possible, without being overweight

Any advice appreciated.


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## Mike48

I'm investigating this at present but there are a couple of stumbling blocks. The first thing you need to do is establish your axle weight limits which can be found in your handbook and possibly also on the door pillar of your vehicle. Then weigh your vehicle fully loaded at a public weighbridge to ensure you will not exceed the axle limit or the maximum 3500kg limit..

In my case I found that the maximum towball limit is 100kgs which would include the weight of the scooter and rack. That restricts you to a 50cc scooter which is simply not powerful enough (for me at least) as I want to travel 2 up.

My only option - and this might apply to you also - seems to be a trailer but these are difficult to reverse. There are two that might be suitable - an Easylifter Hydra Trail and an EZETOW. Neither Company answers their phones and do not respond to e mails. So at the moment I'm in limbo. Like you I want a scooter but have not found any means to carry it.

There are several motorhomers that do carry scooters but I suspect some might be operating their vehicles in an overweight state.


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## brandywine

We carry a 50cc scooter on an integral rack, it does carry 2 of us but slows to about 20mph up steep hills.

We are limited to 3500kgs but have had the rear axle upgraded to 2050kgs but must admit if we had a full tank of water on board we would be a bit over the gross.

Regards


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## brandywine

We carry a 50cc scooter on an integral rack, it does carry 2 of us but slows to about 20mph up steep hills.

We are limited to 3500kgs but have had the rear axle upgraded to 2050kgs but must admit if we had a full tank of water on board we would be a bit over the gross.

Regards


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## Hawcara

We have just bought a Flash 04 and wish to carry a scooter. 

Last September I met a chap in France who had a similar Chausson on a Ford Transit chassis. He had a rack fitted by PWS in Poole. It was attached to the main chassis and he had a 400cc Yamaha on the back but it was a lightweight job. He had put it on a weighbridge and it did not have any problems.

Highbridge seem to think this may be an option but I would like to see another one before I go down this route. I have only discussed it on the phone so know no more than that.


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## Jean-Luc

Have a look HERE just fill in your figures (don't forget to include the weight of the rack itself) and you will see if remain legal.


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## Mike48

Its not only axle limits that are relevant. You also have to keep within the towball limits which on my van are only 100kgs - see your vehicle Handbook. You will be able to get a special reinforced towbar made but a standard Witter type will not do. It seems I can't do this on mine but for yours it will be possible.

Don't be confused by other people carrying motorscooters and bikes and assume you are OK to do the same. In all probability they are operating their vehicles unlawfully. It is doubtful that a 400cc motorbike (which will probably weigh around 200kgs plus rack 30kgs) can be carried within the relevant axle weight limits on a Chausson Flash. 

You should be able to find a solution for a 125cc scooter weighing around 125kgs with a special towbar such as those supplied by PWS and other people such as Watling but you need to weigh your vehicle fully laden first.


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## Photag

I'm also in the process of wanting to carry my 125 Honda. PSW does a very expensive rack that they build to the chassis and not on a tow ball. Watling Engineers does a much cheaper version, but on a tow bar.


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## Pet12

Hi
Not scooter related, but weight limits, I took my 76 to the local weigh bridge, full tank of fuel , no water and partial load of bits and pieces, all the heavy bits inlcuding a pair of folding leci bikes under the bed, my gross is 3500kg like most others giving a load of 420kg. front axle 1850kg rear 2000kg, both axles came in under BUT the overall weight came in at 3530kg, so I am in the process of having the gross capacity increased by 200kg at SV TECH, I dont want to be well over with a full load when everything on board for an extended stay in Spain. Pete


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## CliveMott

Its all be said but the weighbridge is the first job, 1 axle at a time. Then the resuslts plus the vehicle plate data and it can be worked out.
C.


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## dilly

Stop messing with carriers and get a trailer 8O I have probably towed about 4000 miles and reversed in that time about 20 yds


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## maxsdad

I know this may sound a bit odd but has anyone considered a front mounting,the lights on the x250 fiats are positioned quite high up out of the way and you would have to consider any adverse effects on air flow through the radiator, it may even help the traction on the front wheel drive.

just a thought

dave e


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## DABurleigh

Here's a photo I took in New Zealand, but the caption says it all:

> Front rack <

Dave


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## goldi

Morning all,
Sym and Kymco make scooters which are around 110 kg and 125cc.
kymco make engines for BMW motorbikes.


norm


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## maxsdad

DABurleigh said:


> Here's a photo I took in New Zealand, but the caption says it all:
> 
> > Front rack <
> 
> Dave


yes it looks odd but then again if you are prepared to ride around with two adults on a small scooter 8O ?


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## DABurleigh

It's not that it looks odd it's that it's illegal in the EU :-(

Dave


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## rosalan

The famous icampsite USB has a little program that shows the effects of carrying any extra weight on the back of your van.


Alan


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## ob1

Don't forget to add the leverage weight coming off the front axle onto the back in your calculations. A 100kg bike, plus a fitted rack such as the PWS at about 25kg, plus leverage of at least 50% I would have thought, adds up to at least an extra 190kg going on your back axle.


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## CliveMott

There are lots of things you can get away with in Oz and even more in India, but in the UK and Europe the Construction and Use regulations would rule a front rack out. Something about the impact on pedestrians should you nudge one. (Dunno why, they should not be on the road!)

I like racks and we had one on our previous motorhome, that was until I ventured onto a weighbridge when the rack became a towball for the trailer I made in a hurry!. It did take two mopeds though. Now my Mrs gives an increasing number of retrospective directions nowadays so reversing is even more frequent, and I cannot see the trailer other than in the rearview camera so don,t like reversing. hence the current tardis has a garage. But there is a price to pay previous MH did 26 MPG and the current one 18.
Its your money and your patience.

That suggestion that a 100kg scooter + rack will effectively add 190kg to the rear axle is about right. But you MUST visit the weighbridge in "touring mode" first and do the maths. Its all about moments.

C.


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## Mike48

Don't forget noseweights which many posters on this subject tend to ignore. Most Fiat and Ford chassis permit a maximum noseload of 85 -125 kgs. Alko and/or the motorhome manufacturer should give advice on their chassis capabilities but I doubt if any will permit the kind of weight added by a scooter, rack and towbar.

All of the specialist towbar people I have contacted fail to mention noseweight with the exception of Witter who reminded me of the importance of keeping within the vehicle manufacturers specification for noseweight capacity.

By my reckoning, unless the chassis has been uprated, most towball mounted racks with a scooter onboard exceed the vehicle manufacturers noseweight specification even if the axle loadings are within the recommended limits.

_PS. Apologies I seem to have made these points earlier on in this thread._


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## CliveMott

Must add that we have NEVER had a scooter rack that connects via the towball coupling. All have been from two chassis extensions to give much more lateral stability and strength. They did fold up when not in use.


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## rosalan

I am getting double vision!  
This must add considerable load to the back axle, however it is attached :?: 
Alan


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## alshymer

*Scooter*

Hi
I think that you are really going to struggle with a scooter on the rear of your Chausson.
I had similar problems with a Hymer at 3850kgs and eventually changed to a garage model. At least now the Gendarmes can't see that I could be overweight (not that I am) as they don't know I am carrying the scooter!!! (especially with the Air Rides fitted).
I have just bought a Honda Vision which is great 108 Kilos wet weight to replace my Kymco 100 which didn't feel the safest of scooters.
However return to the matter in hand, in France one can buy a very innovative system where one has two tow balls fitted to the tow bar and then an attachment to carry a bike with either one or two wheels that work on a castor arrangement is just attached to each tow ball.
Brilliant idea that elongates the vehicle with no extra weight added, but where one just reverses as normal.
Kind regards
Alshymer


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## DABurleigh

gelathae,

I seem to recall we've been here before, but regarding towbar noseweight limits, yes, my Witter towbar was specified as 85kg vertical load max (from memory). I therefore expected to have to have a new towbar when Watling Engineer's standard rack was strengthened to cope with my ~155kg scooter and fitted by them. 

However, once an experienced engineer looks at the towbar to understand WHY it is as low as 85kg (basically a load significantly in excess of that would twist the towbar about an axis parallel to the rear "axle", while the hangers themselves were perfectly adequate), all that was needed was a fore-aft reinforcing bar welded in. 

A panel van with short overhang and the higher optional spec chassis is still needed, and the airbags I had anyway desired, to allow such a scooter/ bike on a rack and keep within all maximum (and front minimum) weight limits in full touring trim.

It's all pretty straightforward, but impossible on the wrong vehicle, and on the right one only possible with a degree of prior thought and planning. The weighbridge in full touring trim is the first thing to do before expending ANY thought.

Dave


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## Bill_H

I've never liked the idea of a motorbike or scooter being mounted off the towbar. My main objection is the lateral leverage it places on the two bolts holding the towball to the rack - like a see-saw. Even the smallest scooter is around 6ft long and the bolts holding the weight of the load are only a few inches either side of the centre point. That's a tremendous leverage effect on each side. Couple that with the fact that most scooters have the engine incorporated on the rear wheel, and the load isn't ballanced either.
I carry a Honda C90 (85kilo) on two individual brackets, one for each wheel. These brackets clip over my Hope Safe-T-Bar, and distribute the bike's weight directly under each wheel.
If I want to take any of my bigger bikes with me, I hook a bike trailer on the back and off I go. I'd rather tow a bike on a trailer than tow a toad, you rarely have to reverse, and it's a mater of seconds to unhitch a bike trailer and wheel it out of the way should you need to manouvre in a difficult space.
My trailers both store on their sides, and take up little room when stored.


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## DABurleigh

Watling Engineer's scooter rack is 2-bolt and copes up to 130kg. For my 155kg scooter it is 4-bolts.

Dave


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## goldi

Afternoon all,
If you go for agarage model you need to check the weight the garage will take, some of them only take 120kg. 


norm


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## Mike48

DABurleigh said:


> gelathae,
> 
> I seem to recall we've been here before, but regarding towbar noseweight limits, yes, my Witter towbar was specified as 85kg vertical load max (from memory). I therefore expected to have to have a new towbar when Watling Engineer's standard rack was strengthened to cope with my ~155kg scooter and fitted by them.
> 
> However, once an experienced engineer looks at the towbar to understand WHY it is as low as 85kg (basically a load significantly in excess of that would twist the towbar about an axis parallel to the rear "axle", while the hangers themselves were perfectly adequate), all that was needed was a fore-aft reinforcing bar welded in.
> 
> A panel van with short overhang and the higher optional spec chassis is still needed, and the airbags I had anyway desired, to allow such a scooter/ bike on a rack and keep within all maximum (and front minimum) weight limits in full touring trim.
> 
> It's all pretty straightforward, but impossible on the wrong vehicle, and on the right one only possible with a degree of prior thought and planning. The weighbridge in full touring trim is the first thing to do before expending ANY thought.
> 
> Dave


Dave

Thanks. I have followed your experiences of towbar fitting on a thread a couple of years back and found your comments very helpful.

But my own research has led me down a different path and to a different conclusion.

Witter tell me that it is the *vehicle* and not the towbar that determines the weight that can be carried. I have spoken to most of the specialist towbar people and the subject of noseweight was not mentioned although all drew my attention to axle weights. It was Witter and not anything read on here that led me to the conclusion that towbar mounted racks are unsuitable. This is an extract from their e mail:

_Thank you for your email.

All Witter towbars are designed, tested and manufactured to tow at the maximum capability of the vehicle to which it is designed to fit.

It is the vehicle that is the limiting factor with regard to nose load.

Our records and the towbar type approval label indicate that the guideline maximum nose load for the 2010 Fiat Ducato Van is 80kg, the actual nose load for your vehicle will be printed in your vehicle's handbook.

It is quite likley that your vehicle will not be able to accommodate a 140kg nose load._ (That is the weight of the scooter, towbar and rack.)

I have received similar advice from Swift.

While it is possible that modifications to the chassis and or towbar can be made to increase the limits there must be warranty implications. And what would be the insurance position in the event of an accident if a vehicle/towbar had been modified to carry a weight in excess of the vehicle manufacturers specified limits? I presume such modifications will not fall foul of EC type approval legislation for new vehicles but that is a separate issue which I have not fully researched?

In summary I believe that carrying scooters on racks is a subject that needs to be researched very carefully and that manufacturers noseweight limits should form an important part of the calculation. The point I have been at pains to emphasise is that it's not all about ensuring that weights carried fall within axle weights limits.


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## CliveMott

Yes Alan, it did. I had an additional leaf fitted each side to the rear springs and always had maximum pressure in the tyres. It never was any problem, just that bl...y weighbridge which is why the rack came off and the trailer got built. Lesson learnt.

Present vehicle has been weighed will everything (including us) on board.

14.04.2010	PLATED	WEIGHED
Fully loaded
GVW 6400	6100

FRONT AXLE	2100	1860

REAR AXLE	4360	4220
Load included 250 litre water, Monkey bike, CCM bike 
both Gazebo,s with all sides, 4 outside chairs. 


C.


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## DABurleigh

gelathae said:


> DABurleigh said:
> 
> 
> 
> gelathae,
> 
> I seem to recall we've been here before, but regarding towbar noseweight limits, yes, my Witter towbar was specified as 85kg vertical load max (from memory). I therefore expected to have to have a new towbar when Watling Engineer's standard rack was strengthened to cope with my ~155kg scooter and fitted by them.
> 
> However, once an experienced engineer looks at the towbar to understand WHY it is as low as 85kg (basically a load significantly in excess of that would twist the towbar about an axis parallel to the rear "axle", while the hangers themselves were perfectly adequate), all that was needed was a fore-aft reinforcing bar welded in.
> 
> A panel van with short overhang and the higher optional spec chassis is still needed, and the airbags I had anyway desired, to allow such a scooter/ bike on a rack and keep within all maximum (and front minimum) weight limits in full touring trim.
> 
> It's all pretty straightforward, but impossible on the wrong vehicle, and on the right one only possible with a degree of prior thought and planning. The weighbridge in full touring trim is the first thing to do before expending ANY thought.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> Dave
> 
> Thanks. I have followed your experiences of towbar fitting on a thread a couple of years back and found your comments very helpful.
> 
> But my own research has led me down a different path and to a different conclusion.
> 
> Witter tell me that it is the *vehicle* and not the towbar that determines the weight that can be carried. I have spoken to most of the specialist towbar people and the subject of noseweight was not mentioned although all drew my attention to axle weights. It was Witter and not anything read on here that led me to the conclusion that towbar mounted racks are unsuitable. This is an extract from their e mail:
> 
> _Thank you for your email.
> 
> All Witter towbars are designed, tested and manufactured to tow at the maximum capability of the vehicle to which it is designed to fit.
> 
> It is the vehicle that is the limiting factor with regard to nose load.
> 
> Our records and the towbar type approval label indicate that the guideline maximum nose load for the 2010 Fiat Ducato Van is 80kg, the actual nose load for your vehicle will be printed in your vehicle's handbook.
> 
> It is quite likley that your vehicle will not be able to accommodate a 140kg nose load._ (That is the weight of the scooter, towbar and rack.)
> 
> I have received similar advice from Swift.
> 
> While it is possible that modifications to the chassis and or towbar can be made to increase the limits there must be warranty implications. And what would be the insurance position in the event of an accident if a vehicle/towbar had been modified to carry a weight in excess of the vehicle manufacturers specified limits? I presume such modifications will not fall foul of EC type approval legislation for new vehicles but that is a separate issue which I have not fully researched?
> 
> In summary I believe that carrying scooters on racks is a subject that needs to be researched very carefully and that manufacturers noseweight limits should form an important part of the calculation. The point I have been at pains to emphasise is that it's not all about ensuring that weights carried fall within axle weights limits.
Click to expand...

gelathe,

Thanks; that's clear.

If I were in the market again I'd find out Watling's views on that specific point. Their failure experience I know of, and it is most reassuring.

Dave


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## goldi

Afternoon all,

I,m surprised Mandale or some other convertor has n,t Resolved this at the conversion stage such as fixing the rack over the chassis and then changing the rear doors to asingle one as in some others, the weight could easily be increased to over 200kg and a clear marketing edge.


norm


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## airstream

*remorque scooter pour un camping-car*

Hi All,
Try "remorque scooter pour un camping-car" on You Tube 
You will see several transverse castor wheeled scooter trailers being towed/reversed by motorhomes

or "Remorque transversale camping-car"

etc etc

Regards Ray


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## goldi

*Re: remorque scooter pour un camping-car*



airstream said:


> Hi All,
> Try "remorque scooter pour un camping-car" on You Tube
> You will see several transverse castor wheeled scooter trailers being towed/reversed by motorhomes
> 
> or "Remorque transversale camping-car"
> 
> etc etc
> 
> Regards Ray


 Hi just had gander around these trailers and thereis a couple made by SARL CLADEL .fr which come galvanised and with suspension. 
Surprised no-one is importing these.

norm


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## Mike48

These are the best in my opinion. The wheels swivel to allow easy reversing.

http://www.ezetow.co.uk/ezetow.co.uk/Home.html

Normal short trailers are virtually impossible to reverse and this one seems better than the other swivel trailer/rack made by by Easylifter.


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