# Towing the car



## Chausson (Oct 17, 2006)

Hi
Not having towed the smart as of yet, please can you tell me, do you take keys out lock doors and away you go, or leave keys in.
Probably a silly question uh. :? 

Ron


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## chapter (May 1, 2005)

there is a lot on here about towing a smart click search at the top right of the page 
are you going to use a A frame or a trailer 
chapter


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## 99043 (May 4, 2006)

I had to ask the self same question! so not stupid 

Turn keys to light up the dashboard, but not start the car
Press the brake pedal
Put car into Neutral
Handbrake off
Turn key to off ('0')
Get out and lock the car as normal

...... easier than searching - which I also did, and couldn't find it 

HTH
Gillian


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## Chausson (Oct 17, 2006)

GillianandJohn said:


> I had to ask the self same question! so not stupid
> 
> Turn keys to light up the dashboard, but not start the car
> Press the brake pedal
> ...


Thanks it's just what I needed to know.

Ron


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## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

If yours is a braked A Frame you may have to put a bungee cord around the brake pedal to pull it back after you have braked in the van.

I certainly have to with my Matiz


Andrew


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Is it legal 8O


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## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

eddievanbitz said:


> Is it legal 8O


As long as the Bungee Cord conforms to BS5733, and you attach it wearing a Hi Viz jacket, safety boots, gloves, ear and eye protection and a hard hat, and have a suitably qualified person in attendance.

Andrew


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## 99911 (Jul 6, 2006)

Will have to come to see your set up Ron. I've been thinking of getting a small tow car.
Jeff


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

Thank you Andy now I know where I went wrong! incorrect bungee! Duh how stupid


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## Chascass (May 10, 2007)

If it's under 750 kg why have a braked A frame ?. 
Towtal (A frame fitters) say there is no requirement for breaks to be fitted under this weight, and the stipulation that, if breaks are fitted they must work, refers to the A frame, not the car.

Charlie


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## Chausson (Oct 17, 2006)

eddievanbitz said:


> Is it legal 8O


Don't start Eddie all we need is a small open door for the against brigade.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ron


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## Chausson (Oct 17, 2006)

androidGB said:


> eddievanbitz said:
> 
> 
> > Is it legal 8O
> ...


Spot on Andrew


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

> If it's under 750 kg why have a braked A frame ?.
> Towtal (A frame fitters) say there is no requirement for breaks to be fitted under this weight, and the stipulation that, if breaks are fitted they must work, refers to the A frame, not the car.


Forgetting the bit about It's under 750kg unladen etc. and the fact whether that's laden or unladen etc.

Speaking from personal experience of towing a Smart unbraked and a Matiz, braked I would certainly go for a braked version. After all you are trying to slow down/stop an extra 750kg or about another 20% of your vehicle weight. It does cut down on brake fade after prolonged periods of braking on busy roads or long downhill stretches. Plus if you change the Smart at a later date for something a little bigger, you are halfway there with the A frame.
We never bothered with the Bungy on either the Smart or Matiz and have not had any problems.

With regards to the keys on a Smart. Take them out of the ignition and lock the doors up. (after making sure car was in neutral with the handbrake off, assuming it's on an a frame that is.

How long should the bungee be? Is that lying limp or fully stretched? :lol:


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## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

Interesting that you never used the bungee on the Matiz, on mine it was essential to prevent the brake lights staying on.

As an experiment I did once try towing the Matiz without the brakes connected and there was a distinct jolt when braking, so I would agree that a braked version would be preferable even if legally you could use unbraked.


Andrew


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## Chascass (May 10, 2007)

The argument used to counter the weight issue, is that there is no gross weight stamped on a car, the manufacturer only gives a recommend maximum weight. So when a car is on tow it becomes a trailer, and the only stipulated weight that can be used is the empty weight.(if the car is empty) 

You having used un braked and braked A frames, of course will leave you with a better understanding of the benefits of both. My experience of using a un braked frame, coupled with a Chieftain and now a Cheyenne is that I feel very little difference. 

I take your point concerning cost, but like a lot of things concerning M/H at the time £400 looked a good saving.

Charlie


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## MrRob (Jan 15, 2007)

*Smart GVW*



Chascass said:


> The argument used to counter the weight issue, is that there is no gross weight stamped on a car, the manufacturer only gives a recommend maximum weight. So when a car is on tow it becomes a trailer, and the only stipulated weight that can be used is the empty weight. (if the car is empty


Cant believe their is no vin/data plate on a Smart ... its a legal requirement I thought.

www.smart.com has the following data in pdf format

Curb Weight (without driver) 750Kg
Load 270Kg
Permissible Total Weight 1020Kg (GVW)

there heavy because of all the steel in the substantial "safety cell".

However you read it a smart will need breaks if towed on a a-frame (or trailer)


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## Chascass (May 10, 2007)

As I said, the argument used comes from Towtal, who maintain there is no gross weight on a smart, when being used as a trailer, empty. (ring them and have a word with Bill senior) you might enjoy the banter.

To be honest, like a lot more A frame users I am quite happy with the situation, in the knowledge that a A frame is a very safe method of towing, and until someone is prosecuted I will continue to do so.


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## MrRob (Jan 15, 2007)

Chascass said:


> As I said, the argument used comes from Towtal, who maintain there is no gross weight on a smart, when being used as a trailer, empty. (ring them and have a word with Bill senior) you might enjoy the banter.
> 
> To be honest, like a lot more A frame users I am quite happy with the situation, in the knowledge that a A frame is a very safe method of towing, and until someone is prosecuted I will continue to do so.


Dont understand what there is to discuss .... "real"curb weight, published curb weight AND therefore GVW are all over 750Kg therefore brakes ARE legally required as is a Data Plate on the trailer showing Max Gross Weight of the trailer.

:wink:

Perhaps "Bill senior" would post his opinion on here so we can all discuss it in public. :wink:


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## Chascass (May 10, 2007)

Yes, I will suggest that.
In the mean time, do you have a view on a question I asked, in responce to a statement you make on another thread concerning A frames :wink: 


Mr Rob Said

My first thought is that insurance companies are not allowed to insure you for something that is NOT LEGAL - FULL STOP 

But they do, I have a letter from both the MH insurer and the towed car insurer, stating that the vehicles are fully insured wile being towed by a A frame with all 4 wheels on the road. 
Are you saying insurance company are breaking the rules/law by doing this.


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

> www.smart.com has the following data in pdf format
> 
> Curb Weight (without driver) 750Kg
> Load 270Kg
> Permissible Total Weight 1020Kg (GVW)





> Dont understand what there is to discuss .... "real"curb weight, published curb weight AND therefore GVW are all over 750Kg therefore brakes ARE legally required as is a Data Plate on the trailer showing Max Gross Weight of the trailer.


Assuming one is talking about the current September 2007 onwards Smart fortwo.Then the weight is 750 kg and not 750.01kg therefore does not exceed the 750kg "limit"
If you are referring to the Smart pre September 2007 model then you will find that the kerb weight is in fact only 720kg with 80% fluid levels (fuel)


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## MrRob (Jan 15, 2007)

Sorry :wink: I was just trying to flush out the "Facts" ...

As I said it was very hard to come by sufficient information to ascertain what is and is not legal in relation to a-frames. Certain combinations I am assured ARE legal and therefore fine .... 8)

But :wink: are you saying that your Insurance Company knows that your specific combination is Illegal (and why) and have explicitly stated they are happy with this fact and are still happy to insure it?

If you have a letter and your happy to rely on it great ... the statement I made was something I had been told by someone in the Insurance industry and in fact Id also seen it said on this forum. BUT Im more than happy to accept that an insurance company would probably not refuse a payout on a claim resulting from "accepted practice" (ie being a couple of mph over the speed limit) driving an illegal vehicle might fall onto this category but I would not risk it.... without reading all the terms of your insurance. 

Hopefully its not something that will ever need to be "tested".


Ps My new van arrives tomorrow so I'll have less time to "consider" stuff LOL


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## MrRob (Jan 15, 2007)

DJP said:


> > www.smart.com has the following data in pdf format
> >
> > Curb Weight (without driver) 750Kg
> > Load 270Kg
> ...


Thats not relay relevant as its is the maximum permitted GROSS weight of a trailer as stated on the legaly required Data Plate that dictates whether breaks are required.

All Smarts have GVWs far in eccess of 750Kgs.

{EDIT] Irrelivant it may be but how much dose a frame weigh?


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

I was just correcting the post here


> Cant believe their is no vin/data plate on a Smart ... its a legal requirement I thought.
> 
> www.smart.com has the following data in pdf format
> 
> ...


To say not ALL Smarts fall into that category. 
Yes the the max weight will exceed 750kg IF carrying goods but at the time of the alledged offence, the trailer will be empty and weigh under the 750 kg. SAME AS the van pulling it will (hopefully) be under it's maximum gross vehicle weight


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## MrRob (Jan 15, 2007)

DJP said:


> I was just correcting the post here
> 
> 
> > Cant believe their is no vin/data plate on a Smart ... its a legal requirement I thought.
> ...


Sorry I dont understand what you are saying ..... perhaps Im misunderstanding something ....

The actual weight of the trailer (Smart + A Frame) is irrelevant even if it IS the olny weight listed on a data plate (which I doubt)

Am I correct in saying that the Gross Vehicle Weight is the same as Maximum Authorised Mass which is the same as Gross Permissable Weight ? They are all the same thing namely the maximum total a vehicle or trailer is allowed to weigh (on a weigh bridge).

So the only way I can see that an A-Frame could get around this is to carry a Data Plate that limits the trailer's GVW/MAM/GPW to 750Kg .... and I think physical alterations would need to be made to the trailer to limit the load it could carry to allow this down plating ....


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## Chascass (May 10, 2007)

The insurance company's I refer to are Saga (M/H) and Comfort insurance who do a dedicated "towed car policy" both these company's are more than aware of what a A frame is when it is explained to them what you propose using, and have put it in writing that they are acceptable.

These company's I hope you will agree have been around (and insuring ) these combination longer than you and I have been taken a interest, you are not then suggesting I then tell them not to be so stupid, because what they are accepting is illegal ( Mr Rob said ) :wink: :wink: 

Hope you are pleased with your new van tomorrow, have a couple of days rest from all this "Considering" to enjoy it.
You may even come to the conclusion (after all your spade work) that the A frame is for you. :lol: :lol: 

p.s. My smart is a cabriolet,so even lighter (660kg waiting for this to be confirmed)


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## MrRob (Jan 15, 2007)

Chascass said:


> The insurance company's I refer to are Saga (M/H) and Comfort insurance who do a dedicated "towed car policy" both these company's are more than aware of what a A frame is when it is explained to them what you propose using, and have put it in writing that they are acceptable.
> 
> These company's I hope you will agree have been around (and insuring ) these combination longer than you and I have been taken a interest, you are not then suggesting I then tell them not to be so stupid, because what they are accepting is illegal ( Mr Rob said ) :wink: :wink:
> 
> ...


So long as your covered  
My first and only real experience of an Insurance company led me to believe they will do anything possible to escape paying out ... I admit it looked a little "sus" but I dont ever want to be there again ....

Actually I have no intention of towing a car either on a trailer or frame .... We enjoy the challenge posed by finding some where to park a 7+ Meter van .... it just adds to the adventure

I just had a burning desire to get to the bottom of the situation .... after my London LEZ "balls up" .... there is so much un-researched commentary its difficult to find the facts ..... I feel I have a clear(er) picture of a hazy situation and fully understand the pro's and cons of each method now .... dunno which way I would jump if I was going to take the plunge but I am more inclined to go the braked a frame route than I would have been, if I had not "considered" it on here LOL

.... But Id probably still prefer a trailer..... as I am just as happy driving with one as I am driving solo .... though an a-frame would be a new "challenge" ..... I think my sat nav would get thrown out the window at the first "no through road" mis route LOL

.... I'll let you all know how the-new-van-same-as-the-old-van-only-newer is ..... when Ive enjoyed it for a while LOL 

Ps We had a Roadster .... great fun and all the electronics ment it was un-crushable .... even when you tried to ... amasing fun! £250 to insure and 45Mpg and that turbo wastgate


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## 96783 (Nov 23, 2005)

MrRob said:


> Chascass said:
> 
> 
> > Actually I have no intention of towing a car either on a trailer or frame .... We enjoy the challenge posed by finding some where to park a 7+ Meter van .... it just adds to the adventure.
> ...


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