# Crufts and the Kennel Club.



## Spacerunner

I see that time of year has come around again.
The parade of deformed and diseased dogs at the meat market called Crufts.

Isn't it about time that the RSPCA stepped in and had this farce banned.

From the Daily Telegraph:
_An investigation has revealed the extent of health problems suffered by popular breeds, including spaniels, bulldogs and pugs due to excessive inbreeding to accentuate traits such as coat colour, body shape and size.
The claims are made in a BBC documentary, to be broadcast tomorrow. The show is a follow-up to one made in 2008, Pedigree Dogs Exposed, which first highlighted many the health problems and drew comparisons between dog breeding practices and racial beliefs held by the Nazis.
As a result of the documentary, sponsors pulled out of Crufts and the Corporation ended its coverage of the show after 42 years.
The new investigation reveals how the health problems are now widespread and accuses some breed clubs of not doing enough to tackle the problems, even ostracising members who expressed concerns about the issue.
It features a recent study into one breed, Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, which found that 70 per cent of dogs over the age of six years old suffer from a severe neurological condition known as syringomyelia._

More here


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## carolgavin

I will ignore the meat market reference and point you to the fact that the clumber spaniel, the pekinese and the bulldog best of breed winners yesterday were disqualified after a vet check.


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## wakk44

It looks as if the kennel club recognise that there is a serious problem with close inbreeding and are trying to do something about it,using an independent vet to examine certain breeds.

http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2012/03/disqualified-bulldog-and-pekingese-fail-crufts-vet-checks/


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## 747

I have just come back from a 3 mile walk with the dogs.

My deformed and diseased Pug dog kept up with me and the Whippets without any bother.

The Whippets are now asleep and he is on the scrounge.

BTW, nothing wrong with making a comment on pedigree dogs but the tone of yours will make people press the 'back' button.


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## HeatherChloe

My Chloe is a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. 

She's not kennel club registered and I haven't bred her. 

I am much more concerned about puppy farming and ill treatment of dogs than I am about pampered dogs. 

There are farmers who keep Cavalier King Charles Spaniels outisde on concrete fllors, not house trained, scared of people, and just breed brred brred them until they are too old, then abandon them. 

People buy them online and don't see the conditions they come from. It's heart breaking.

At least this doesn't happen within the Kennel Club. 

Let's fight puppy farming and cruelty at animals first.


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## carolgavin

HeatherChloe said:


> My Chloe is a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.
> 
> She's not kennel club registered and I haven't bred her.
> 
> I am much more concerned about puppy farming and ill treatment of dogs than I am about pampered dogs.
> 
> There are farmers who keep Cavalier King Charles Spaniels outisde on concrete fllors, not house trained, scared of people, and just breed brred brred them until they are too old, then abandon them.
> 
> People buy them online and don't see the conditions they come from. It's heart breaking.
> 
> At least this doesn't happen within the Kennel Club.
> 
> Let's fight puppy farming and cruelty at animals first.


Hiya glad to see you again, haven't seen you lately hoping you and Chloe are well. x


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## aldra

The only problem that I see with disqualifying a dog after it has won best in class is it does nothing to change the very characteristics that it presumably won on

This has been discussed for years aspects of characteristics bred to the point of stupidity Bull dogs who cannot breathe because their nose is so squat, German Shepherds whose backs are so sloping it damages the hips and so on

Often these dogs have exaggerated characteristics of the breed

At least Crufts have made a start at long last but I would prefer to see the dogs disqualified BEFORE they have won the event

Aldra


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## patp

HeatherChloe said:


> My Chloe is a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.
> 
> She's not kennel club registered and I haven't bred her.
> 
> I am much more concerned about puppy farming and ill treatment of dogs than I am about pampered dogs.
> 
> There are farmers who keep Cavalier King Charles Spaniels outisde on concrete fllors, not house trained, scared of people, and just breed brred brred them until they are too old, then abandon them.
> 
> People buy them online and don't see the conditions they come from. It's heart breaking.
> 
> At least this doesn't happen within the Kennel Club.
> 
> Let's fight puppy farming and cruelty at animals first.


I think you will find that most puppies from Puppy Farms are Kennel Club registered so it does happen within the Kennel Club and they have been turning a blind eye to it for years.

At last they are using vets to weed out the severely affected dogs. What worries me is that a judge awarded each of those disqualified dogs the title of best in breed (before the vet intervened). Of course we must remember that judges were breeders once and helped to produce the dogs we see today.


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## carolgavin

patp said:


> HeatherChloe said:
> 
> 
> 
> My Chloe is a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.
> 
> She's not kennel club registered and I haven't bred her.
> 
> I am much more concerned about puppy farming and ill treatment of dogs than I am about pampered dogs.
> 
> There are farmers who keep Cavalier King Charles Spaniels outisde on concrete fllors, not house trained, scared of people, and just breed brred brred them until they are too old, then abandon them.
> 
> People buy them online and don't see the conditions they come from. It's heart breaking.
> 
> At least this doesn't happen within the Kennel Club.
> 
> Let's fight puppy farming and cruelty at animals first.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you will find that most puppies from Puppy Farms are Kennel Club registered so it does happen within the Kennel Club and they have been turning a blind eye to it for years.
> 
> At last they are using vets to weed out the severely affected dogs. What worries me is that a judge awarded each of those disqualified dogs the title of best in breed (before the vet intervened). Of course we must remember that judges were breeders once and helped to produce the dogs we see today.
Click to expand...

Apparently one of them was disqualified for Ectropion and conjunctivitis. :wink:


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## aldra

Well if that wasn,t congenital I see no reason for the disqualification

Is Ectropion congenital in dogs???

Aldra


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## bellabee

Yes, both ectropion and entropion are congenital in dogs.


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## Bill_H

The vanity of man never ceases to amaze me.


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## SomersetSteve

My dog enjoys Crufts!










On a more serious note, the Chairman of the Kennel Club said on TV that the disqualifications were sending a message to judges, if they get that message then they will change their approach to judging the affected breeds which has to be for the good of the dogs.


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## bulawayolass

Like the comment from chief rspca vet in the vet times about all the breed tinkering and no proper effort going on... "It is like trying to polish a dog ****"

As for rspca stopping anything.... "they are a legend in their own minds". Sorry but l am not impressed with them have dealt with them to long past jaded over them.

If you want to be depressed about the state of breeds have a read at the Inherited Diseases in Dogs database at Cam. Uni run by Dr David Sargan a geneticist the list of diseases/breed is climbing all the time.

http://www.vet.cam.ac.uk/idid/


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## 747

bulawayolass said:


> Like the comment from chief rspca vet in the vet times about all the breed tinkering and no proper effort going on... "It is like trying to polish a dog ****"
> 
> As for rspca stopping anything.... "they are a legend in their own minds". Sorry but l am not impressed with them have dealt with them to long past jaded over them.
> 
> If you want to be depressed about the state of breeds have a read at the Inherited Diseases in Dogs database at Cam. Uni run by Dr David Sargan a geneticist the list of diseases/breed is climbing all the time.
> 
> http://www.vet.cam.ac.uk/idid/


Thanks for the link but when I checked up on Whippets, it is a complete load of tosh.

They even refer to medical problems with a "Long Haired Whippet". 8O :lol:


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## Spacerunner

Long haired whippet


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## 747

No such breed recognised by the Kennel Club.

Lurcher would be a more appropriate name. :lol: 

Seen as how the Whippet evolved from the Bedlington terrier (short, curly coat) and the Manchester Terrier (short, smooth coat), the claims on the website where your photo came from is a little misleading about the origins of the so called recessive gene for long hair. :lol: 

BTW, just to prove that not all Whippet owners are ex pitmen with flat caps, the friend of ours that the wife has gone to Crufts with has been stopped by representatives of Marie Claire magazine and asked to model for their next edition. She is a very pretty blonde lady with a stylish dress sense and stands out a mile from the old dowagers in Tweeds. :lol: 

She is no dumb blonde either as she holds down a high powered job in Local Government.

Her teenage son Luke Johnson is one of the best junior handlers in the country and today he handled a Saluki to Best dog, earning it its 3rd CC and elevating it to the title of Champion. He then beat the Best bitch in the runoff and got Best of Breed, so you will see him tonight on TV in the big ring in the Hound Group. Not bad for a 14 year old.


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## patp

747 said:


> No such breed recognised by the Kennel Club.
> 
> Lurcher would be a more appropriate name. :lol:
> 
> Seen as how the Whippet evolved from the Bedlington terrier (short, curly coat) and the Manchester Terrier (short, smooth coat), the claims on the website where your photo came from is a little misleading about the origins of the so called recessive gene for long hair. :lol:
> 
> BTW, just to prove that not all Whippet owners are ex pitmen with flat caps, the friend of ours that the wife has gone to Crufts with has been stopped by representatives of Marie Claire magazine and asked to model for their next edition. She is a very pretty blonde lady with a stylish dress sense and stands out a mile from the old dowagers in Tweeds. :lol:
> 
> She is no dumb blonde either as she holds down a high powered job in Local Government.
> 
> Her teenage son Luke Johnson is one of the best junior handlers in the country and today he handled a Saluki to Best dog, earning it its 3rd CC and elevating it to the title of Champion. He then beat the Best bitch in the runoff and got Best of Breed, so you will see him tonight on TV in the big ring in the Hound Group. Not bad for a 14 year old.


Just because the KC do not recognise a breed does not mean it does not exist.
New breeds come to their attention every so often which they may or may not recognise. In fact, if they do not recognise it, I may just investigate because it probably means they are a healthy breed. I quite fancy a hairy Whippet as mine has to have a wardrobe of coats in this climate.
:roll:


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## 747

I agree Pat. Ours have coats but do not like wearing them unless it is bitter cold. They try to get them off by scrubbing against our legs. Of course yours a soft namby pamby southern Whippets. :lol: 

I am thinking of crossing my Whippets with my Pugs and calling the breed a 'Puppet'. Sounds better than a 'Whug'. :lol: 

Wanna buy a Puppet Puppy ?


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## MrSimon

aldra said:


> At least Crufts have made a start at long last but I would prefer to see the dogs disqualified BEFORE they have won the event
> 
> Aldra


I agree with this this Aldra. It should be like motor racing where any entrants have to pass scrutineers checks to compete.

Would it be so difficult for the dogs to be checked by a vet when they sign up at Crufts?

I went to Crufts for the first time ever yesterday. Absolutely loved it, but I didn't watch any of the live shows apart from the YKC Flyball first thing (as my 2x dogs parents were competing).


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## MrSimon

patp said:


> Just because the KC do not recognise a breed does not mean it does not exist.
> New breeds come to their attention every so often which they may or may not recognise. In fact, if they do not recognise it, I may just investigate because it probably means they are a healthy breed. I quite fancy a hairy Whippet as mine has to have a wardrobe of coats in this climate.
> :roll:


Exactly. The Border Collie wasn't recognised for years!


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## CliffyP

I wonder when they will recognise Labradoodlecockapoodlegsdspringerpoo's
Or mongrel's.
We have GSD's, and it took a while to find a proper square back GSD breeder instead of the one the KC seems to like that look deformed at the back end. 

When buying, view Dam and Sire, visit breeder, check pedigree. And thats just for starters. Our's get Birthday emails from the breeder and regular updates on health issues etc.


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## aldra

With you all the way Cliffyp

fortunately in 38 years of keeping German Shepherds we've never had a long haired one that wasn't a straight backed, heavy, loose limbed specimen

We always go for long haired although Shadow is the first all black one, insist on seeing Dam and Sire and require they both have a hip-score

Shadows breeder has put a provider on, that we cannot breed from him and have the pups registered with the kennel club without a prior hipscore.

Excellent idea

Aldra


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## CliffyP

aldra said:


> With you all the way Cliffyp
> 
> fortunately in 38 years of keeping German Shepherds we've never had a long haired one that wasn't a straight backed, heavy, loose limbed specimen
> 
> We always go for long haired although Shadow is the first all black one, insist on seeing Dam and Sire and require they both have a hip-score
> 
> Shadows breeder has put a provider on, that we cannot breed from him and have the pups registered with the kennel club without a prior hipscore.
> 
> Excellent idea
> 
> Aldra


Snap Aldra
We had to sign a contract with the breeder of Ollie that we would not breed without permission (not that anyone would want a pup off her, she's nuts).


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## 747

The boy done good !!!!!!!

Young Luke Johnson got G3 in the Hound Group and not only that, he put the adults to shame with his handling skills. The general standard of handling was poor, bearing in mind that a lot of them have been in that position before. It was Lukes first time at that level.


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## patp

MrSimon said:


> aldra said:
> 
> 
> 
> At least Crufts have made a start at long last but I would prefer to see the dogs disqualified BEFORE they have won the event
> 
> Aldra
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this this Aldra. It should be like motor racing where any entrants have to pass scrutineers checks to compete.
> 
> Would it be so difficult for the dogs to be checked by a vet when they sign up at Crufts?
> 
> I went to Crufts for the first time ever yesterday. Absolutely loved it, but I didn't watch any of the live shows apart from the YKC Flyball first thing (as my 2x dogs parents were competing).
Click to expand...

This is The Kennel Club we are talking about. It is absolutely amazing that they are doing anything at all.
It must be devastating for the owners of the dog that is denied its title. One minute they have achieved their lifetime ambition of being Best of Breed at Crufts and the next they have been told by a vet that their dog is deformed and had the title removed. It will surely have huge reverberations in the world of showing.
I think that this way will have more of an impact than vetting the dogs beforehand as it achieves maximum publicity and sends a clear message to breeders to clean up their acts or risk humiliation.


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## aldra

yes, but it has been the club that has encouraged the excessive 

breeding patterns that has caused the deformities

If now they are finally coming round to recognising their folly owners 

need clear guidelines on what is no longer tolerated

To me better given before dogs enter the judging compound

Aldra


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## 747

aldra said:


> yes, but it has been the club that has encouraged the excessive
> 
> breeding patterns that has caused the deformities
> 
> If now they are finally coming round to recognising their folly owners
> 
> need clear guidelines on what is no longer tolerated
> 
> To me better given before dogs enter the judging compound
> 
> Aldra


I don't think you can say that the KC encouraged anything.

In the case of your own breed, it was down to one influential man in the breed.

The way it was told to me, a top exhibitor had a very good GSD that was long in the body but exceptional in every other respect. He perfected the stance that every GSD exhibitor now follows with the rear legs not being set up the same. This was to disguise the body length. As this came from a top kennel, others slavishly followed suit. Thus, a breed that did not appear in the UK in any numbers until around the late 1930's was radically changed by exhibitors.

I also have direct experience myself in the field of Pointers, which we had 40 years ago. Again, one of the top kennels, Crookrise produced a dog with an exaggerated dished feature on the head. In other respects, it was a strikingly good dog, became the breed record holder for CC's and was used extensively at stud. That one dog radically changed the breed for ever.

The KC is undoubtedly guilty of many things but it is exhibitors with a short term mentality in terms of breeding who do the damage.


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## bulawayolass

l am told a breed has to be true breed for 100yrs for kc to recognise it.

I will let you tell David S he is a load of tosh as you are an undoubted expert in genetics he will be pleased to revise his list to suit your comments.

kc are a bunch of self serving .... they are the pole upon which people make money by genetic manipulation that causes pain and misery for millions of animals and that goes for kc around the world. 

The standards should be ripped apart and rewritten inc. no animal with any known problem should be allowed to breed and as that means some in fact many breeds will die out ... good why should they have pain and misery to "provide companionship"?
To breed even one litter people should have to sit a course and take an exam, anyone breeding without this gets a big fine.
Any intact dog able to breed should have a huge yearly licence fee against it
Any neutered one should have a lot lower one
All dogs should have a m'chip anyone moving and not re registering should have huge fine if person is found

Wont happen and is controversial but back to why should animals suffer for people yet again?


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## 747

I did not say General tosh......

......just Whippet tosh.

I actually attended talks on genetics for canines many years ago. Dogs have double the chromosones of humans. That is why it is better to kiss the Judges backside. The odds are shorter if you want a winner. It is just too hard to breed one. :lol:


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## andyangyh

Almost all our dogs have been rescues and, strangely enough, our last dog was dumped at the rescue center by a breeder of giant schnauzers who evidently realised that her prize, in-heat bitch had got out after being with the registered stud dog and had an afternoon of passion with what, to judge by the pups, was a bearded collie. Talking to the staff at the Rescue Center it seems this was not an isolated occurence of "mishaps" being cast off to Rescue Centres by breeders.

For years the Kennel Club sanctioned the breeding of deformed animals. It took a Panorama programme and the withdrawal of the BBC coverage to make them change their ways. I wouldn't get a puppy from anyone who breeds dogs for money. Rescue centres or friends are the way to go - definitely NOT puppy farms and, in my opinion, not anyone sanctioned by the Kennel Club until they have hugely cleaned up their act.

A dog is a companion and workmate and part of the family. It is not a vehicle for personal gain or glory. Crufts always reminds me of those awful Beauty Pageants where mothers use their daughters to fulfil their own dreams. Our very first dog was a pedigree German Shepherd. She had a bloodline as long as your arm and her grandfather was featured in many of the books on the breed. She died at 6 years of age after suffering with hip dysplasia. The Kennel Club set the standard for the breed, the breeders followed like sheep and the dogs suffered malformation in their thousands. Wheezing pugs, spaniels with skulls too small for their brains. Time to stop holding up the Kennel Club as the authority on how dogs should look I think.


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## 747

andyangyh said:


> Almost all our dogs have been rescues and, strangely enough, our last dog was dumped at the rescue center by a breeder of giant schnauzers who evidently realised that her prize, in-heat bitch had got out after being with the registered stud dog and had an afternoon of passion with what, to judge by the pups, was a bearded collie. Talking to the staff at the Rescue Center it seems this was not an isolated occurence of "mishaps" being cast off to Rescue Centres by breeders.
> 
> For years the Kennel Club sanctioned the breeding of deformed animals. It took a Panorama programme and the withdrawal of the BBC coverage to make them change their ways. I wouldn't get a puppy from anyone who breeds dogs for money. Rescue centres or friends are the way to go - definitely NOT puppy farms and, in my opinion, not anyone sanctioned by the Kennel Club until they have hugely cleaned up their act.


That would be an unrealistic goal I am afraid. Pedigree dogs do many useful jobs and it may be possible to get some of them from rescue centres but they have been bred from pedigree dogs in the first place. Sniffer dogs (drugs, cash, cadavers etc, etc) are very often pedigree Spaniels. Sheepdogs are pedigree border Collies.

I have had cross breeds AND pedigree dogs. I never saw any difference healthwise. With the pedigree ones, I DID know what I was letting myself in for.


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## HeatherChloe

Did you see the Newfoundland that took second prize - so gorgeous. 

Regarding dogs - so many people get them , don't train them properly, then have to give them up or have them put down. 

In London, lads get Staffordshire Bull Terriers of all kinds of mixes, and over 90% of the dogs awaiting rescue in Battersea are Staffs. 

The trouble with rescuing dogs is that it's ok if you want a 9 month old, poorly trained, aggresive Staff. That's very easy to find. 

But much harder to find a lovely natured dog, well trained - as people don't tend to give them up for rescue. 

The problem is people who get dogs and don't train them - if people were more responsible, then they would not have to give their dogs up for rescue as everyone would have a well behaved dog. 

It would also help if people always neutered their dogs, unless the dog is particulalry healthy and being bred by a well trained expert. Neutered males in particular are safer both to others and less likely yo be attacked themselves by other male dogs. 

Puppy farms should be banned. But if someone has a very healthy, good-natured dog and the skills and time to breed it, then this should and is allowed. 

My Chloe's breeders, a private family breeding from a well-loved private pet, who had the puppies in the living room, sold her on condition I would not breed her, and I had her neutered at 6 months. 

My understanding is that the life expectancy of mixed breed dogs is on average 1-2 years less than pure breeds, so it's not clear that pure breds are always more healthy.


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## andyangyh

Sheepdogs are indeed "pedigree" in that they are usually (but not solely) Border Collies. However, working sheepdogs will not be seen at Crufts - they will be scruffy, smelly and splattered with sheep dung and wouldn't be welcome in the show ring. They almost certainly won't be purchased from a Kennel Club registered breeder either - the shepherd (and I know several) will buy their pup from another shepherd who works his dogs. Most shepherds don't give two hoots what their dog looks like as long as it is good at its job and last time I looked there were no sheepdog trials at Crufts. Many spaniels involved in drug work etc. come from rescue centres. Certainly the two who work for our local Fire Brigade do - both, incidentally, cross-breeds ("Sprockers"). So...no Kennel Club registered breeder there. It is true that you know what you are getting with a Kennel Club registered dog - for many years you knew you were in with a good chance of getting a German Shepherd with hip dysplasia, a pug that could hardly breathe etc. Then Panorama jolted the KC into action when the sponsorship for Crufts was pulled as a result of the ensuing bad publicity. The latest fashion is for "designer crossbreeds" - the cockerpoos and labradoodles. This time the Kennel Club aren't involved but watch the greedy and unscrupulous crawl out of the woodwork. Not a million miles from me a breeder of pedigree spaniels has jumped onto this bandwagon. How soon before she and her friends are voting for their new breeds to be recognised, shown and, eventually, interbred.

You'll have gathered that I am not a fan of Kennel Club registered breeders. That's down to experience. But the person who has a dog and breeds from it - our own current spaniel is the result of an accident between our friends two dogs (one dog, one bitch, one mother in law who was looking after the dogs for a week and forgot to take the bitch for her injection - oops!) is a different story. Seeing the mother and father in their own home is ideal. I'm just against Kennel Club registered breeders who are running a business.


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## bulawayolass

Chloe think someone sold you a pup on the pedigrees living longer totally new on me at cpd if it comes up it is the other way around. I am wondering if you are getting muddled (or whoever told you) was confused and thinking of neutering. Un neutered live anecdotally less than neutered (there is no exact measure for this) and confirmed those done before first season dont get any mammary tumours and it is also not true those done early get urinary incontinence.

Agree about neutering but disagree about anyone breeding (re earlier comment)

Training oh god l promise to zip my mouth and not climb on my soap box about untrained dogs









Think cost of caesareans should go way up as well l think one well know group of ooh are around £1200 but should be around 2k for one.


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## DTPCHEMICALS

The beauty of a dog is in the eye of the beholder.
Crufts is as bent as an old door nail.

You are in the clique or not :wink: 

Dave p
Edit 
As for trained dogs half of our 20 dogs have been recue Shelties or Rough Collies all trained perfectly. Currently 4 shelties 1 collie and a husky
The current Husky is proving more than a handfull but is only 8 months old.
She has an American mum and a Russian dad.
I will win.
Dave p


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## 747

andyangyh said:


> Sheepdogs are indeed "pedigree" in that they are usually (but not solely) Border Collies. However, working sheepdogs will not be seen at Crufts - they will be scruffy, smelly and splattered with sheep dung and wouldn't be welcome in the show ring. They almost certainly won't be purchased from a Kennel Club registered breeder either - the shepherd (and I know several) will buy their pup from another shepherd who works his dogs. Most shepherds don't give two hoots what their dog looks like as long as it is good at its job and last time I looked there were no sheepdog trials at Crufts. Many spaniels involved in drug work etc. come from rescue centres. Certainly the two who work for our local Fire Brigade do - both, incidentally, cross-breeds ("Sprockers"). So...no Kennel Club registered breeder there. It is true that you know what you are getting with a Kennel Club registered dog - for many years you knew you were in with a good chance of getting a German Shepherd with hip dysplasia, a pug that could hardly breathe etc. Then Panorama jolted the KC into action when the sponsorship for Crufts was pulled as a result of the ensuing bad publicity. The latest fashion is for "designer crossbreeds" - the cockerpoos and labradoodles. This time the Kennel Club aren't involved but watch the greedy and unscrupulous crawl out of the woodwork. Not a million miles from me a breeder of pedigree spaniels has jumped onto this bandwagon. How soon before she and her friends are voting for their new breeds to be recognised, shown and, eventually, interbred.
> 
> You'll have gathered that I am not a fan of Kennel Club registered breeders. That's down to experience. But the person who has a dog and breeds from it - our own current spaniel is the result of an accident between our friends two dogs (one dog, one bitch, one mother in law who was looking after the dogs for a week and forgot to take the bitch for her injection - oops!) is a different story. Seeing the mother and father in their own home is ideal. I'm just against Kennel Club registered breeders who are running a business.


So that is why you do not like me then, it is because I am "a KC registered breeder".

We (my wife and I) have an affix registered with the KC so that we can register any pups we have bred. We have bred 4 litters in the past 40 years. I will just have to get over the fact that I am one of the 95% of exhibitors who breed a litter in order to carry on their bloodline and get hammered for it. I have bought in most of the pedigree dogs I have owned.

As for the cockerpoo lark, you still can get the genetic faults carried through. You will also pay twice or three times as much for a Labradoodle than you would for a pedigree Labrador or a Poodle.

I do not get my dogs from rescue centres but I have a standing order to my local one. I hope you are supporting your local one as well.


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## carolgavin

For every KC registered breeded who carefully selects their stud dog looks into the bloodlines of both and tries their very best to breed a healthy dog to take to shows, there are a thousand others who happen to have a bitch and think they can make money out of it by mating it to their second cousins twice removed pet :roll: :roll: 

The 'designer' dogs can often inherit the genetic faults of both their parents so hybrid vigour is not necessarily a good thing either! Many many of my friends are KC registered breeders and I do not recognise any one of them from the descriptions given. 

There are many people breeding dogs (puppy farms and pet owners) who have no clue. don't know how many times I have seen dogs with severely malformed mouth dentition and when asked where they got dog 'oh it was my friend she had a dog and her pal had a bitch' these poor things can barely eat.

Certainly some breeds have it all wrong especially the 15 targeted by the KC, I have to say however that going on hearsay (and some written :wink: ) evidence (allegedly) some of the dogs disqualified did not have congenital diseases that would make them unfit for function but common commensals which all pets can get from time to time ie canker, conjunctivitis. Although the argument is there that if your dog has any infection it should not be shown.

I don't really know what the answer if is there even is one...............


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## HeatherChloe

bulawayolass said:


> Chloe think someone sold you a pup on the pedigrees living longer totally new on me at cpd if it comes up it is the other way around. I am wondering if you are getting muddled (or whoever told you) was confused and thinking of neutering. Un neutered live anecdotally less than neutered (there is no exact measure for this) and confirmed those done before first season dont get any mammary tumours and it is also not true those done early get urinary incontinence.
> .


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9005839

All the scientific papers on dog life expectancy explain that it is dog size rather than breed that determines life expectancy.

Pure breeds and mixed breeds are not better or worse than the other.

In terms of breeding healthier dogs, instead of letting a random dog roger another one, the idea would be to find a dog without congenital defects and breed it with another which also does not have defects.

But, on average, mixed breeds occur due to dogs randomly having sex due to not being neutered.

So, in principle, there should be no difference in life expectancy, but the results may be skewed by having the dogs having a slight tendency to being better looked after by vets and owners if they are pure bred.


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## 747

Life expectancy of a Great Dane is 9 - 11 years.

Closer to home, Rhodesian Ridgebacks (presumably bred and fine tuned in Rhodesia). The ridge is a deformity, allied to Spins bifida (I believe). The animals without the ridge (so presumably more healthy) were destroyed because of that fact.

There seems to many enemies of the Kennel Club...... yet nobody lifts a finger to do anything about it. We no longer exhibit our dogs (but might let the young lad who did so well at Crufts tonight handle our old girl in Veteran at a local show). We do not like the KC either and would like to see more changes made quickly. A strong message has gone out, let us see where it goes.


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## korky24

*Crufts and the Kennel Club*

A lot (not all I might add) of these breeders want stringing up and the Kennel Club with them. The good breeders should stand up and be counted and say enough is enough.

My neighbour, who is a vet is currently training a young lab as a gundog. She was brought in as a pup, to be put down as she has a heart murmur and was no good for breeding, so was considered worthless. An absolute disgrace.

This animals as fashion accessories obsession not only creates pain and suffering on a massive scale but also in a lot of cases results in thousands of dogs being euthanased because they don't make the show grade.

On the recent BBC programme a brainless and I would add heartless breeder of Ridgebacks expressed the opinion that she'd much sooner a puppy born with no ridge (ie worthless to her) was put down by a friendly vet than fall into the hands of the dog fighting fraternity.What an absurd argument. Don't breed the bloody things then.

My friends used to breed (very successfully) Bengal cats. It was exactly the same there. Within 15 years they considered the breed ruined by unscrupulous breeders. The whole shape of the animals changed and genetic problems were manifesting themselves to such a degree they couldn't find anyone they could trust to breed with, so pulled out altogether on moral grounds.

This can really only be tackled by legislation, but with Cameron promising a free vote on fox hunting this parliament I won't hold my breath.

John.


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## 747

*Re: Crufts and the Kennel Club*



korky24 said:


> This animals as fashion accessories obsession not only creates pain and suffering on a massive scale but *also in a lot of cases results in thousands of dogs being euthanased because they don't make the show grade. *
> John.


Sorry to disagree but this is not the case as regards show dogs. Racing greyhounds...Yes ............ amongst the working gundog fraternity...... Yes but to a unknown degree (it is done discreetly). 8O

I am only up this late as I am waiting for the phone call to go and pick up my wife after her trip to Crufts (spectating and helping a friend). She will have met many like minded friends and no doubt seen a few people that we totally ignored in our showing days. The vast majority care for their animals and breed a litter to improve the quality of their line. Nobody makes money out of exhibiting dogs, it is a very expensive hobby these days. Do not condemn the many for the faults of the few.

I look forward to the same old arguments this time next year.


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## bulawayolass

Chloe yes l know re life exp. big dog small dog but your comment was on pedigree v non. And one of the reasons non live longer in info l have is the problems with the pedigrees health.

Yes l agree about rogering aimlessly (back to original posting)

I love the Rhodie Ridgeback, ridge immaterial but would never have one that being one of the reasons SB l mean, other it has breeders hooks into it. Originally it was bred to hold lion at bay. 

I predict the next problem dog being the Boerboel went from never seeing them in this country to seeing 5 in the last 2 years. They need proper handling are an SA breed used as a guard dog and will as usual be bought/bred by wrong people and become a wrecked breed.

747 you seem spectacularly able to bury your head in the sand over the problems in dogs in this country and to justify everything an amazing ability that speaks volumes.


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## patp

Here's my plan to stop bad breeding:-

Microchip every puppy before it leaves the breeder.
If the puppy ever needs re-homing it goes back to the breeder first.
If the puppy develops any genetic fault then the breeder is liable for all the vet fees.
Any aggressive dog would go back to the breeder.

I guarantee that as soon as that law was passed all the puppy farmers would give up. All the cash crop breeders (including one in my family) would give up.
The rescue centres would become redundant after about ten years because breeders would be taking over.

No good breeder would object to the above measures.
One result would be a shortage of dogs (because there would be few breeders left). This would mean that the good breeders could vet new owners thoroughly to ensure that they did not get any dogs returned for re homing or due to aggression.


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## KeithChesterfield

Best of Show 2012 - I wondered where my toilet brush had gone.


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## HeatherChloe

patp said:


> Here's my plan to stop bad breeding:-
> 
> Microchip every puppy before it leaves the breeder.
> If the puppy ever needs re-homing it goes back to the breeder first.
> If the puppy develops any genetic fault then the breeder is liable for all the vet fees.
> Any aggressive dog would go back to the breeder.
> 
> I guarantee that as soon as that law was passed all the puppy farmers would give up. All the cash crop breeders (including one in my family) would give up.
> The rescue centres would become redundant after about ten years because breeders would be taking over.
> 
> No good breeder would object to the above measures.
> One result would be a shortage of dogs (because there would be few breeders left). This would mean that the good breeders could vet new owners thoroughly to ensure that they did not get any dogs returned for re homing or due to aggression.


I can see some sense in this. Except, terribly difficult to enforce.


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## aldra

Not if it was an expectation of the buying public

pedigree dogs are now very expensive to purchase

what would classify a breeder though and with what justification could we lay blame at their feet for a badly trained or poorly socialised dog?

We bought Shadow from a small family breeder at a cost of £600, visited her in her home where the pups were bred, same pattern we always use

I have no experience with rogue breeders or puppy farms but I expect they exist, can not understand why people would buy a pup from them though

At the end of the day its us, the purchasers, that make puppy farming,
lucrative

Aldra


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## patp

If the dog fell foul of the law with regard to its temperament the breeder would become involved. This would have the effect of making sure breeders only sell to fully committed owners who will rear and train the dog properly.
I have just been talking to someone who has acquired a 14 month old Westie. She is the dog's third owner. Where is the breeder in all this? The dog seems perfectly fine in all respects, though it is early days, so why did the original owner pass the dog on after such a short time? Were they properly vetted as fully committed owners?

Microchipping of puppies would not be difficult to enforce if it became law that a Puppy Contract was essential between the breeder and owner and microchipping was a requirement of the contract.

Once we have good breeders (and there are many of them) selling puppies under contract to fully committed owners all the problems we are seeing with dogs in our society would start to fade.


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## SpeedyDux

As an ex dog-owner I used to watch Crufts but since the publicised scandals have given up and can't bear to watch it any more. I now realise why our 2 Bichons developed inherited diseases (we had no idea they were so susceptible) and died relatively young despite spending thousands of pounds on vet bills to prolong their lives. They were pedigree ones we bought from a breeder who was invited to judge this breed at Crufts. 

Things seem to me to be just as bad whenever commercial breeding is concerned. Show Budgies, for example. The official breed standard for the classic Budgerigar is unlike any natural wild bird, and many breeders are now simply breeding mutant showbirds with ridiculous but extravagant plumage characteristics that are detrimental to the health of the birds. A normal cage budgie can live 12 years or so, but I read that the average life of the showbirds is only about 3 years. Showbirds often can't see, and many can barely fly (even if they are allowed to). Seems very cruel and unnatural to me. 

SD


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## 747

bulawayolass said:


> Chloe yes l know re life exp. big dog small dog but your comment was on pedigree v non. And one of the reasons non live longer in info l have is the problems with the pedigrees health.
> 
> Yes l agree about rogering aimlessly (back to original posting)
> 
> I love the Rhodie Ridgeback, ridge immaterial but would never have one that being one of the reasons SB l mean, other it has breeders hooks into it. Originally it was bred to hold lion at bay.
> 
> I predict the next problem dog being the Boerboel went from never seeing them in this country to seeing 5 in the last 2 years. They need proper handling are an SA breed used as a guard dog and will as usual be bought/bred by wrong people and become a wrecked breed.
> 
> 747 you seem spectacularly able to bury your head in the sand over the problems in dogs in this country and to justify everything an amazing ability that speaks volumes.


When you learn how to read the message in members posts, you will make a big leap forward. I have not defended the KC or the health of pedigree dogs at all in this thread. I have over 40 years of involvement with dogs, can recognise a dodgy breeder by his stock and have always had healthy dogs. I have picked up abandoned dogs off the street and given them homes. I have reported exhibitors to the KC. I have reported puppy farmers to the RSPCA and the Police.

ps: as for your comment re the Boerboel, I even found a home on a Plot for an abandoned one when I was working in SA in 1981.


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## aldra

I must admit that I always thought that mongrels would have a longer life expectancy than a pedigree (based on equating size) because of natural selection in the process For example a full bred
English Bull dog compared to a cross bred one.

I would have thought that cross breeding enters another element into the gene pool

I have never looked at any research into it though

I would not agree that owners of pedigree dogs would be better 
owners than those of non pedigree or be more willing to spend money 
on vet bills etc 

I happen to like the look and temperament of Long-haired German Shepherds but when it comes to his care its him I love whether he be pedigree or not and that would not influence the fact I would do everything in my power to ensure he remains fit and well and has a good life

Aldra


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## HeatherChloe

aldra said:


> what would classify a breeder though and with what justification could we lay blame at their feet for a badly trained or poorly socialised dog?
> 
> We bought Shadow from a small family breeder at a cost of £600, visited her in her home where the pups were bred, same pattern we always use
> 
> I have no experience with rogue breeders or puppy farms but I expect they exist, can not understand why people would buy a pup from them though


1. Breeder should vet the potential owners re their suitability, just like rescue centres do.

2. People buy dogs from pet shops! So that's an example of a puppy taken away from mother and people and put in a cage alone at the wrng age.

Apparently, breeders will keep one dog and then pretend it is the happy mother when someone comes to see the puppy, whereas it is the front for a farm. Apparently,


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## aldra

I don't know Heather, 

Did shadows breeder vet us?, she certainly met us and we call back when we are in Wales and she is delighted to see him

we certainly vetted her, her dogs and their litter

Her proviso that we cannot breed him for KC registered pups without a hip scan I commend, but equally she would not want any registered faults appearing in her line at the kennel club

I have no intention of Breeding him although he is an excellent specimen of his breed therefore he has not been hip scanned.

We could do nothing about the score anyway so we must take our chances and so far with all our GSD we have been lucky, but I wouldn't dream of returning him anywhere to anyone

Well not on a good day anyway :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Aldra


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## HeatherChloe

aldra said:


> I don't know Heather,
> 
> Did shadows breeder vet us?, she certainly met us and we call back when we are in Wales and she is delighted to see him
> 
> we certainly vetted her, her dogs and their litter
> 
> Her proviso that we cannot breed him for KC registered pups without a hip scan I commend, but equally she would not want any registered faults appearing in her line at the kennel club
> 
> I have no intention of Breeding him although he is an excellent specimen of his breed therefore he has not been hip scanned.
> 
> We could do nothing about the score anyway so we must take our chances and so far with all our GSD we have been lucky, but I wouldn't dream of returning him anywhere to anyone
> 
> Well not on a good day anyway :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Aldra


I'm not advocating this. I was answering another poster's point.

The other poster said that breeders should be liable to take back badly trained dogs. Logically the only way that this could happen is if the breeder vetted potential owners so that they could be sure that the owner would train the dog well.

I don't think it it workable.

Probably just better education re dog training and care is what is needed.

Hey - imagine if parents had to take back their criminal children and look after them, instead of jails? ;-).


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## patp

I am not advocating the breeder take back an aggressive dog just that they be involved in the dog's future. Some dogs are put into rescue due to the bad handling of the owner. If the breeder was held jointly responsible for the dog they brought into the world, and took good money for, they would be much more likely to vet potential owners more carefully than is happening at present.
We all know that there are no bad dogs just bad owners. If breeders took more care over the homes their puppies went to there would not be a dog problem in this country.

If we have a faulty washing machine there is a system that protects us. Why is this not thought workable in dogs? It is more important that it works in dogs because, at the end of the day, it is the poor dog that suffers.


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## SomersetSteve

If there were no bad owners there'd be no bad breeders however at least the KC have started to take action against the worst excesses of the showing fraternity which is good for dogs and their owners. More needs to be done by all concerned but you can only regulate so much the rest will be down to the dog buying public being better informed and by the pressure of public opinion and resultant media interest.


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## HeatherChloe

patp said:


> I am not advocating the breeder take back an aggressive dog just that they be involved in the dog's future. Some dogs are put into rescue due to the bad handling of the owner. If the breeder was held jointly responsible for the dog they brought into the world, and took good money for, they would be much more likely to vet potential owners more carefully than is happening at present.
> We all know that there are no bad dogs just bad owners. If breeders took more care over the homes their puppies went to there would not be a dog problem in this country.
> 
> If we have a faulty washing machine there is a system that protects us. Why is this not thought workable in dogs? It is more important that it works in dogs because, at the end of the day, it is the poor dog that suffers.


Your washing machine example is not an analogy.

If you buy a washing machine, throw it down the stairs so it breaks, there is nothing which requires the manufacturer to be responsible for your mal treatment of the machine.

If a car manufacturer makes a car, and a bad driver drives it stupidly and crashes it causing death, it is not the manufacturers fault.

That's why we have a separate law requiring you to be a safe driver before you can drive the car.

An analogy would therefore be that you need to pass a test before you can be allowed to own a dog.

But it's hard to see how a breeder can really be responsible for subsequent poor treatment by an owner, or poor training, leading to a dangerous dog.


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## patp

If the puppy contract stated that the new owner had to go on a course then so be it. Whatever it takes to stop the bad breeders selling puppies to the first person who coughs up the cash. If they do not take some responsibility for the mental and physical health of the dogs they breed they will continue to churn out substandard specimens.


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## rugbyken

our molly is an irish red & white setter we have had 3 reds in the past and after a few years without one we went the rescue route looking for another , instead we came across the red & whites we went to see the pups and were told that in spite of a 60 ml drive to see the pups it was provisional on them allowing us to have a pup , obviously we passed inspection but the breeder has kept in touch and organised a litter reunion a couple of weeks ago at 1year old 5 of 8 were there all good big healthy dogs , we were all told that if we couldn't cope for any reason they would have them back and rehouse them, although these people breed and show this is thier second litter in 2 years they took thier bitch over to ireland to strenghten thier hip score and although they would like to breed from molly they have said that for them to get her checked and tested to registration standard would cost £350 and the same for the sire which they would probably go to italy for,
incidentally we crossed over sat morn and were staggered how busy the tunnel was dozens of dogs of course they were going home from crufts the owner of the setter champion we were talking to was austrian there were italian spanish and german plates galore,
never having taken a dog that way before was delighted with the walkies facility a fenced compound where the dogs can be let of to run.


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