# A-Frames in Germany?



## chellaman (May 18, 2005)

I hope I'm not opening up old wounds. We've been towing our Smart on an A-Frame for a year now for many thousands of miles in UK, France, Spain, and Morocco without problems concerning legality. Never stopped at all in UK and France. Stopped in Barcelona to check both vehicle documents to ensure they weren't stolen. Stopped many times in Morocco, but only because there are so many cops and they seldom see an RV, and have never seen a Smart! 
So, all in all, no-one seems to give a damn about towing on an A-Frame! 
However, German motorhomers always tow on a trailer and give a sharp intake of breath at the sight of an A-Frame, and gasp that it is "verboten" in Germany.
If I'm not able to use my A-Frame through Germany this summer for an East European tour, it will severely restrict my plans.
Hs anybody had any experience, either personally or heresay, about Brits towing with an A-Frame in Germany?


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi

Its ilegal in most countries, although I believe it is legal in one or two for emergency recovery only.

People seem to get away with it, but its probably because there is a kind of truce in place that if its legal in your home country, you get free passage in other Countries (it doesnt work with every law though)

But the problem is that its ilegal over here anyway, so in effect not legal over there (but they dont know that for sure, if you see what I mean) 
If you are not bothered about being legal in the UK why worry about abroad? Or is it that Germans are noted for their efficiency, so I would guess that you have less chance of bluffing over there.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

I’ve always taken my Dads advise and never visited there, he said they were really unfriendly every time he visited there in 1943, so he just flew back home again.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Perhaps he dropped litter from a great height. They deserved to be angry.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Dave, you would be surprised how many people do not know we were the first to terror bomb civilians.

BTW germany is one of the few countries were the public transport system works brilliantly, if the timetable says 18:06 the bus will be there a 18:06 and if its supposed to arrive at the destination at 18:29 thats exactly when it will get there. Likewise train service if the train was due to leave at 13 :21 and yoiu arrive at 13:22 the train as gone.

Taxi's are mint Mercedes and travelling long distance is not expensive, we used to take 50 mile taxi rides all the while


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Were we the first to use poision gas George?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

I think the order went French, Germans, Brits.

Edit - sorry, Chellaman :-(


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

I think this post has been diluted ... 8O


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Definitely on topic, Jim. The thread started off with "opening old wounds"


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Yes in the last century wars Dave as the order right, But gas attacks in warfare occured over 3000 yrs ago in land warfare.

Is nobody going to add to the A frame discussion? Boff would usually be very clued up on something like this.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

guzzijim said:


> Were we the first to use poision gas George?


Completely off topic but you've hooked me.

The French were the first to use chemical weapons in the first world war the British didn't follow suit until 1915. If poisoning arrows or wells is a biological weapon then the technique has been going on throughout recorded history. Lord Jeffery Amherst (British) was spreading smallpox among Native Americans during the French-Indian War in the eighteenth century by giving them blankets that had been used by smallpox victims.

Regards Frank


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Sorry I never realized *humour* was of topic, although it may be said to be in bad taste.
As the Germans would say "*stick to zee subject only*"


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

guzzijim,

You never got an answer last time you asked. We're just keeping up the tradition 

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-105631.html#105631

Dave


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Sorry Dave but that reply is to cryptic for my limited intelligence. Really don't understand what you are trying to say.
You have quoted my reply to a previous mail re. Germany/a Frames.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

In which you asked about A-frame experience in Germany and it wasn't answered then either.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

DABurleigh said:


> In which you asked about A-frame experience in Germany and it wasn't answered then either.


But I didn't Dave, that was my reply to someone elses question. If your going to do searches to see what I said on previous occasions get it right mate.


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## whistlinggypsy (May 1, 2005)

Back to the thread, having many German friends we spend many weeks in that country and as a result we have towed with a "A" frame from Kiel too Garmisch visiting many towns along the way, the last trip was for 10 weeks and we never once had a problem with any officials. 

The germans would love to use an A frame but the TUV will not issue a standard type for approval, it will come eventually and when it does it will be reconnised throughout the EU and hopefully remove the "GREY AREA" that causes so much confusion of whether or not it is legal, so go for it chellaman and enjoy the trip.
Haben Sie eine große Reise.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

*chellaman * if in view of the previous reply, if you decide take you A frame to Germany, please post a mail on here after your return to let us know how you got on! when do you propose to go?


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2006)

chellaman said:


> *Hs anybody had any experience, either personally or heresay, about Brits towing with an A-Frame in Germany?*
> 
> Some.
> 
> ...


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## whistlinggypsy (May 1, 2005)

Jeeps reply is such a valid one as this enters the grey area realm, as far a i know there has never been a reported case of a "blood spilt" accident, a death caused by vehicle towing with an a frame or even a breakaway accident involving third party damage. 

I for one would not like to be the first to encounter the repercussions of such a accident in any EU country as the legalities of such an offence will be enormous. 

This is the main reason that after 9 years of A frame towing we have decided not too carry on doing it, it is not required in places like France and Germany as they are so m/h friendly, we did last year buy a small spanish registered car and leave it in Mazarron with friends and use that for our 4 month winter break Nov/Mar.

But having said this it is up to each individual to access the pro's and con's, factor in the risk and then decide is it worth the hassle or stress.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2006)

chellaman said:


> Hs anybody had any experience, either personally or heresay, about Brits towing with an A-Frame in Germany?


Your maximum permitted trailer weight appears to be either 2000lbs or 909 kilo.

If it is 909 Kilo, that is the maximum weight that you can tow, ie, heavier than most cars.

If it is 2000kg, you need an HGV licence if the combined weight of your vehicle and 'trailer' is over 8250Kg.

There is one solution.

*Tow a car that has a maximum permitted weight of 750kg or less.*

You can legally tow such a car with a UK registered vehicle on an unbraked A-frame in any country that accepts your Uk registered vehicle.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

jeeps said:


> Since you have deliberately broken the Law (German and UK) your insurance company will walk away from you.


Interesting .. which laws do you refer to ?


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2006)

chellaman said:


> IIf I'm not able to use my A-Frame through Germany this summer for an East European tour, it will severely restrict my plans.
> 
> Hs anybody had any experience, either personally or heresay, about Brits towing with an A-Frame in Germany?


 Howzabout http://www.micro-cars.co.uk/

Max permitted weight 602Kg
Therefore entirely legal as an unbraked trailer.

I expect there are others


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jim

This isnt even a grey area, they are ilegal, last time I Looked automatic reversing on a braked "trailer" was the hurdle that they could not overcome. (braked trailer was the section that they claimed made them legal, not so)

Someone from Ministry did say manual switch over would be acceptable (but this is in direct conflict with the law as written)


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

I have a letter from my insurers (NFU) saying they recognise 
A frames and they are quite happy for me to use one. I made sure of that before I sold my trailer. Other people have mentioned that Safeguard do to. If you have a Breakaway accident towing a car on a Trailer they would still throw the book at you for having an Insecure load. It would be nice to hear from more people who have used A frames in Germany and eastern Europe as a group of us are planning a trip across the top end of Germany maybe taking in Denmark on the way then on to Poland. Whilst on the subject of eastern europe has anybody had problems travelling through those countries with regard to security and staying safe.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Tony

Thats good to know and great for those that want to ignore the law and carry on using A frames, however hopefully people will not mix up insured with legal to use, motorhomes that are Oversize in dimension are all well insured without a problem, in reality they are still ilegal to use on UK roads.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2006)

GeorgeTelford"

Hi Jim

This isnt even a grey area, they are ilegal, last time I Looked automatic reversing on a braked "trailer" was the hurdle that they could not overcome. (braked trailer was the section that they claimed made them legal, not so)

Automatic reversing requirements depend on the age of the trailer (car).
If the car on tow is pre-89, manual reverse block is Ok.

Someone from Ministry did say manual switch over would be acceptable (but this is in direct conflict with the law as written)[/quote
Electric over-ride operated through the reverse light switch should be Ok.

Other brake conundrums: -

1) The trailer handbrake must operate on both axles, ie all four wheels.
Only practical on a 4 wheel drive.

2) Brakes must work properly.
The servo on the trailed car needs vacuum.
Theoretically, one can increase the volume of the tow vehicle exhauster, but this may cause the engine to fail.

One could fit an electric powered exhauster.

The technical problems involved in reversing a car on an A-frame are financially insurmountable.

A cars front wheels have a caster angle.
When the car goes forward, the front wheels follow the line taken by the car.
It steers itself.

When you push the car backwards the caster angle tries to turn the steering to full lock.

Anti-jack-knife chains are the best compromise.
Stout chains between the ends of the tow bar, and the directly opposite ends of the car end of the A-frame.
The chains should to only come taught on full lock.

In reverse, the tow vehicle forces the towed vehicle to follow its line.
The front tyres on the towed vehicle wear rapidly.


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## whistlinggypsy (May 1, 2005)

safeguard insured my m/h and A framed tow car for 6 years with no problems, as i never had an accident or incident i do not know if there would have been repercussions if i had :?: What i do know is that any towed vehicle that was manufactured with a braking system MUST have the brakes working when being towed reguardless of weight


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2006)

TonyHunt said:


> I have a letter from my insurers (NFU) saying they recognise
> A frames and they are quite happy for me to use one.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2006)

whistlinggypsy said:


> What i do know is that any towed vehicle that was manufactured with a braking system MUST have the brakes working when being towed reguardless of weight


The vehicle was manufactured when you fitted the A-frame WG.

Unless the tow frame has a braking mechanism, the trailer has no brakes per se.

The under 750Kg maximum permitted weight holds good.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

[/color][/quote]

I've fitted one of these

http://www.victorylibrary.com/mopar/pump-tech-c.htm


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Guzz 

Could you please modify the quote in your post? it looks like you are quoting me.

But regardless, are you saying you can reverse with a car on an A frame?

Jeeps, when an A frame is fitted the vehicle wheels become the trailer wheels, they have brakes and ergo the brakes must be working, regardless of weight.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Guzz
> 
> Could you please modify the quote in your post? it looks like you are quoting me.
> 
> ...


*Sorry George* I was only quoting what you had quoted!

*No* I and not saying you can reverse a car on an A frame, *the link *was to Vacuum pump which I have fitted to my tow car.

Having said you can't reverse a car on an frame, I have ! admittedly it was only a short distance 30ft. in a straight line.
Before you start to reverse release the overrun brake cable (car a tow) by pulling the connecting pin out, next put on the steering lock on towed car and then reverse! 
The steering lock on my car locks wheels straight ahead, don't try and make any major turns with the steering locked, it will put a massive amount of strain on the whole setup.
It's handy when you just need to back up a few yards.


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## des (Aug 13, 2005)

I tow with an A-frame using a Brake Buddy. This does not cut in until speeds of 10 - 15mph. Hence reversing is possible without any manual intervention. Admittedly difficult, because of the flip to full lock problem, but possible with care. Not sure how this affects a very cloudy issue.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi GuzzJim

If you look you will find you are quoting Jeeps, you have clipped a part where he his addressing me, so could you please modify the quote and remove my name from it?

Regards 

George


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2006)

Jeeps, *when an A frame is fitted the vehicle wheels become the trailer wheels, they have brakes and ergo the brakes must be working, regardless of weight.*[/quote]

Fine George, you have your opinion, I have mine.

You think that a trailed under 750Kg trailer that has some brake parts fitted but certain essential parts not fitted is illegal.
I think that It is Ok to tow an under 750Kg trailer with some brake parts but not others.

The National Trailer and Towing Association comfirmed my opinion in writing before I presented my opinion.

As far as I can tell from extensive research: -

*An under 750Kg car on an A-frame hold is Ok.​ *


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2006)

*I've fitted one of these*​
http://www.victorylibrary.com/mopar/pump-tech-c.htm[/quote]

Thank you very much for the advert George.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2006)

*Des - 'I tow with an A-frame using a Brake Buddy. 
This does not cut in until speeds of 10 - 15mph.' *​
Is your Brake Buddy certificated for use in the EU do you know please Des?

.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jeeps

I have not posted an advert.

You may have based your side on an opinion, but I am not basing my post on a mere opinion, its the law, if brakes are fitted to a trailer even sub 750KG they must be working.

If you look through some of the regs

From the NTTA which seems to disagree with what they told you in writing

Trailer Brake Requirements
Braked trailers manufactured after Oct. 1982 must be fitted with a coupling that *incorporates a hydraulic damper. *
Braked trailers manufactured after Oct. 1982 require brakes that comply with EC Directives. *If brakes are required, all wheels must be braked. (if manufactured in or after 1968) *

*Any braked trailers manufactured after April 1989 must be fitted with a hydraulically damped coupling and auto reverse brakes to give braking efficiencies required by EEC Directive 71/320 (ECE13). *

*Unbraked trailers manufactured after 1 Jan 1997 must be fitted with a secondary coupling that will provide some residual steering in the event of an unplanned uncoupling. This device should also prevent the ball coupling hitting the ground in similar circumstances. It must be connected to the towing vehicle when the trailer is being towed. *

*Braked trailers must be fitted with a parking brake that operates on at least two road wheels on the same axle. At all times it must be capable of being maintained in operation by direct mechanical action without the use of hydraulic, electric or pneumatic systems - i.e. Operated by rod or cable action. The efficiency of the handbrake must also comply with EEC Directive 71/320/EEC; i.e. It must be capable of holding a stationary trailer on a gradient of at least 16% (1 in 6.25) *

An emergency breakaway cable must be fitted to the parking brake linkage and the other end clipped or fixed round some fixture on the towing vehicle so that, in the event of the trailer becoming detached from the towing vehicle, the cable will apply the parking brake automatically, before snapping itself. It is not recommended to loop the cable round the towball. (But do so if there is no alternative attachment point.) It is a separate offence not to use the breakaway cable provided. 
A secondary coupling as per ( F ) must be fitted to a braked trailer manufactured before 1982 that has a manual handbrake arrangement . (A secondary coupling can also be fitted to a braked trailer with hydraulic damping, manufactured after 1982. In such cases, great care should be taken to ensure that the secondary coupling is appropriate in terms of the weight of the trailer (esp. If it is over 1000kg.). Also the operation of the breakaway cable is likely to be prejudiced.)

*1982 regulations demand that all trailers, including unbraked ones, must be clearly marked with their maximum gross weight in kg. This may be checked at any time by the police at a weighbridge. Since 1st January 1997, all unbraked trailer plates must show the year of manufacture*

But also on their web page

*I have a motor home and want to tow a Fiat Seicento behind it using an A-frame. This car has a kerb weight under 750 kg so am I legal with this outfit? Sorry no is the answer. The law regards this as an unbraked trailer and you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross Trailer Weight, not a car's kerb weight. The figure you have to use is the car's Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight. We have no knowledge of any car sold in the UK that has a GVW under 750 kg. The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100. An A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal. A-frames may be offered with a braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety.*
But anyway have a look round here

National Trailer & Towing Association website


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2006)

George, the nearest relevant thing that I could find in your information is: -

*'its the law, if brakes are fitted to a trailer even sub 750KG they must be working.'​*
However, if brakes are not fitted you do not need them.

By extension, if only half the brakes are fitted, brakes are not fitted per se.

*If brakes are not fitted per se, the A-frame is Ok on vehicles with a max permitted weight of 750Kg.*

If there is a section that directly contradicts what NTTA told me, please will you let me know so that I can take them to task and let the site know.


.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2006)

*From information posted by George.*

I have a motor home and want to tow a Fiat Seicento behind it using an A-frame. This car has a kerb weight under 750 kg so am I legal with this outfit? Sorry no is the answer. *The law regards this as an unbraked trailer* and you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross Trailer Weight, not a car's kerb weight. The figure you have to use is the car's Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight. We have no knowledge of any car sold in the UK that has a GVW under 750 kg. *The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100*. An A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal. A-frames may be offered with a braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety.

.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi GuzzJim
> 
> If you look you will find you are quoting Jeeps, you have clipped a part where he his addressing me, so could you please modify the quote and remove my name from it?
> 
> ...


Ok George tell me how to do that please.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jeeps

I think the last underlined paragraph blows it all out of the water, the Axiom being the only known car, even then on just this next line *"Unbraked trailers manufactured after 1 Jan 1997 must be fitted with a secondary coupling that will provide some residual steering in the event of an unplanned uncoupling. This device should also prevent the ball coupling hitting the ground in similar circumstances. It must be connected to the towing vehicle when the trailer is being towed." * that seems to rule out the Axiom too.

But there is a law that if brakes are fitted to a trailer (which obviously they are even on the Aixom then said brakes must be operational) and obviously if they were made operational they could not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety.

Exemptions for having fitted brakes working are C&U Regs 1973 Sec 70 the exemptions include (for trailers) Agricultural trailers, broken down vehicles (Thats why its ok to A frame in breakdown situ) and certain trailers fitted with over run brakes (no time to explain that and its not relevant anyway) C&U Regs 1973 Sec 94 Brakes *where fitted* must be in serviceable condition and good working order and kept properly adjusted, now unless you are removing the Aixoms braking system before setting off........

A Frames have always been ilegal for transporting cars (ie like we are talking about here, taking your car with you) and thats throughout the EU, its never as far as I can see ever even been a grey area.

I did look into this because I was going to build a small trailer using mini hubs and then found that it would be ilegal if the brakes did not work, even though there was no legal requirement to have them fitted.

_There are strict regulations on braked trailers and, whilst a braked 'A' frame attached to a towed car constitutes a braked trailer, it is not legal for transportation as it cannot comply with EC71/320. With car dollies, the situation is somewhat different. Under regulation 83 of the Road Vehicles (construction & Use) Regulations 1986 (SI.1986/1078) Amending Regulations, a car dolly, with a car in place, will be considered as two trailers. This is legal for recovery but, under the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 (Schedule 6) the combination is limited to 40 mph on motorways and dual carriageways and 20 mph elsewhere._


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

guzzijim said:


> Ok George tell me how to do that please.


Hi Jim

Click on the edit button

Left click and drag over the text you want to remove and then hit delete

or place the insertion point just ahead of the text you wish to remove and then hit backspace until text is cleared

or place the insertion point just ahead of the text you wis to remove and then hit delete until the text is cleared.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

*IT'S BEEN DONE GEORGE*


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2006)

George, I read your arguments very carefully.
I am impressed, but not favourably.

I suggest that if you wish to bring us to your side that you take your arguments up with the SMMT with a view to proving them wrong.

I think the last underlined paragraph blows it all out of the water, the Axiom being the only known car, even then on just this next line *"Unbraked trailers manufactured after 1 Jan 1997 must be fitted with a secondary coupling that will provide some residual steering in the event of an unplanned uncoupling. This device should also prevent the ball coupling hitting the ground in similar circumstances. It must be connected to the towing vehicle when the trailer is being towed." * that seems to rule out the Axiom too.
I think that you are out of your depth and 'floundering like a great beached whale' there George.

All you need is the same bit of strong chain between the tow hitch and the tow bar that you need on every unbraked trailer.
A bit of chain that's just long enough to reach from hitch to bar without restricting normal trailer movement.
A bit of chain that is strong enough to lift the loaded trailer off the ground.

But there is a law that if brakes are fitted to a trailer (which obviously they are even on the Aixom 
I think that you are floundering again George.
The car is now a trailer.
The trailer does not have a complete braking system - therefore it is an un-braked trailer.
If the Law was worded, "If brakes are *partially* or completely fitted to a trailer" then you would have 'a wildcat tearing the bowels out of my arguments'. 
However, it does not, so yet again, I think that you are a 'floundering whale'.

I think that the rest of your letter is further irrelevant floundering.

.


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## des (Aug 13, 2005)

Jeeps

answering your question re Brake Buddy and EC regs. I have no idea. But I seriously doubt it. I suggest you ask Bill at Towtal. 

Des


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Des' mentioning of Bill at Towtal reminds me. Having spoken to him last week he has my total (no pun) respect.
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-12689.html

However, looking at the information on his website, presumably to comfort existing and potential customers as to the use of their A-frames, I thought it lightweight.

http://www.towtal.co.uk/towtal.pdf
http://www.towtal.co.uk/fines1.pdf

Dave


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## 96783 (Nov 23, 2005)

The original question was "Are A frames legal in Germany?" So far as I can see nobody has answered that specific question. George, in his usual detailed and impeccable way, has argued the law for this country and possibly also for the EU, of which Germany is a part, while others seem to have argued on the basis "I've got one and never been pulled up so I'll continue to use it." Has anybody asked the original question of the German equivalent of the Department of Transport? 

That at least would resolve the issue and, perhaps, save another 4 pages of discussion. I have to confess that I keep hoping that Boff will come in with the definitive answer but, perhaps, he's very wisely keeping out of what seems like a problem with which those who have them may never be content with the answer. A second confession - I've become so disenchanted with the whole question of A frames/trailers that we've decided to stick with our push bikes, probably as much push as bike, and have binned the idea of a trailer or A frame!!! :roll:


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

PhredC,

The impression I get (sorry this is not definitive!) is that a German registered motorhome towing a car on a A-frame would not get away with it for long. The authorities seem hotter on it than elsewhere in Europe. 

However, even if that is the case, because they are in the EU, whether a UK registered motorhome using an A-frame in Germany is illegal is purely down to whether it is legal in the UK. 

I am fast coming to the opinion that is is solely down to the fact that the latter issue has not been tested in a court that has allowed the benefit of the doubt to win - so far.

Dave


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jeeps

There is no need for the floundering quips and I would appreciate you removing said goading comments.

There are brakes fitted to any car, when the car becomes a trailer then it still as brakes fitted, according to the law these brakes must work.....

Exemptions for having fitted brakes working are C&U Regs 1973 Sec 70 the exemptions include (for trailers) Agricultural trailers, broken down vehicles (Thats why its ok to A frame in breakdown situ) and certain trailers fitted with over run brakes (no time to explain that and its not relevant anyway) C&U Regs 1973 Sec 94 Brakes where fitted must be in serviceable condition and good working order and kept properly adjusted.

note that they even mention broken down vehicles in the exemptions, I don't think it could be more clear

On the secondary steering and chain thing I think you are right, I totally misread the meaning of that.

But overall A frames are not a legal means of towing a vehicle behind a motorhome here or in europe. (unless for the purposes of breakdown)

*I suggest that if you wish to bring us to your side that you take your arguments up with the SMMT with a view to proving them wrong. *

Us?

I have no idea what the SMMT say on the matter, we have not as far as I am aware been discussing the SMMT (or even quoting them), but if they disagree with the law, its then up to you who you believe.

We were discussing the NTTA and their letter to you, but there website appears to disagree with what you claim the letter says.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Phred, Dave

It is ilegal in Germany and as far as I can tell all other euro countries (except for breakdown)

The crux of the argument is that if its legal in UK then by international truce it usually guarantee's safe passage thru a Euro country (not in all cases though, it seems to be OK for vehicles I am not sure it applies to everything) 

Unfortunately it is definately not legal in the UK, but at the moment it is being ignored, but will they ignore it forever? who knows.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2006)

I think that you are still floundering George.
I read your recent arguments.
You have gone down even further in my estimation.

I think that the NTTA is correct when they say, and as you held up in evidence when it suited you: -

*The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100. *

Please will you explain why you think that you know better than the NTTA George?

Please will you explain why you wish to stop people towing cars legally, when towing a car will make their motorhoming more enjoyable?

I made no quips, floundering or otherwise, George.

I merely borrowed some analogies from Winston Churchill, so that you could easily see yourself as I see you.

Your postscript invites a firm abrasive style.
I suggest that if you can't stand the heat, you get out of the kitchen.



.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2006)

answering your question re Brake Buddy and EC regs. I have no idea. But I seriously doubt it. I suggest you ask Bill at Towtal.

Des

Thanks for the info Des.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jeeps

Sorry mate not going to get involved in a flame war, would be nice if you revealed who you truly are, seems vaguely familiar tone, you are certainly not just a new poster called jeeps, but no matter. Sorry, but your estimation means nothing to me

Yes I did hold up the only car that the NTTA say is legal and also pointed out why I believe they are incorrect, C&U say that if brakes are fitted to a trailer they must work. I have rung Marsham this morning to confirm, the towing and trailer expert is in a meeting at the moment I have been told I should expect a call back around lunchtime.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2006)

PhredC Wrote 
The original question was "*Are A frames legal in Germany?" *So far as I can see nobody has answered that specific question.

The NTTA answered the question for you PhredC when they wrote

The only vehicle we know *that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame *​*
*
[align=left:bfd7b5a550]is the French Aixam small "car". [/align:bfd7b5a550]
This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100.

If it's legal in this country, 
it's legal in Germany, on the back of a British registered car.

George quoted the NTTA statement when it suited him.
And argued against it when it suited him.
I think our understandings of the words 'detailed' and 'impeccable' differ.

I asked the NTTA seperately, they confirmed their opinion in writing.

Since it is legal to tow an unbraked trailer on the back of an German registered car, it seems probable that it is legal to tow an under 750Kg car on an A-frame.

If you wish to know chapter and verse on the legal situation of a German motorist, the German Embassy will tell you of you ask them.

In the meantime, as long as: -

1) The NTTA say

*'The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100'.*

2) Your insurance company will cover you to tow an under 750Kg car on an A-frame for social, domestic, and pleasure purposes.

You will be at no greater risk towing an under 750Kg max permitted weight car on an A-frame than you are driving without a trailer.

*On the matter of bikes.*
If your bike sticks out further behind your back axle than 60% of your wheel base you may be in schtuck with the German Police.

It's also illegal in this country.

.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi again Jeeps

The NTTA claim that the only car is an Aixan car, I disagree because the law says if brakes are fitted they must be operational and serviceable, that being the case an Aixam on an A Frame then becomes ilegal.

According to your logic if I accept part of what the NTTA (or someone) says then I have to accept all of it?, this is of course totally ilogical. You or I or for that matter any organisation can of course be partially right.

BTW on the matter of bikes, the rule is 60% not 2/3rd's which would be 66.6666 recuring % thats a pretty big error (but dont worry I do not use your logical model, ie I dont assume everything you say is wrong now, based on one error)


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## 96783 (Nov 23, 2005)

Sorry Jeeps, I could have said that I carry our bikes on a bike rack in the MH's garage, properly secured and therefore at no risk of the 2/3rds rule. My interests and antennae rose because our MH is German registered and perhaps to answer the next question - no that is not illegal for I am registered as a German resident prior to emigration in the next few weeks.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2006)

George, you ignored my questions.
Virtually every society considers people who ignore question to be rude.

Why did you ignore my questions George?

The NTTA claim that the only car is an Aixan car 
No, they say that is the only one they know George, 
I disagree 
Then convince the NTTA, they are the guys with the qualifications. 
because the law says if brakes are fitted 
Brakes are not fitted until the A-frame has the fittings George, until then, they are only partly fitted. 
they must b e operational and serviceable, that being the case an Aixam on an A Frame then becomes ilegal.

According to your logic if I accept part of what the NTTA (or someone) says then I have to accept all of it?, 
Correction George, you quoted that NTTA Okd towing a car with a GAUW of 750Kg or less 
this is of course totally ilogical. 
You or I or for that matter any organisation can of course be partially right.
Can you identify those parts of this matter where you are partially correct George because I can't find them?

BTW on the matter of bikes, the rule is 60% not 2/3rd's which would be 66.6666 recuring % thats a pretty big error 
Thanks George, you are quite correct, 60% it is.

(but dont worry
I don't worry George, its one of the things I can't seem to get a handle on.
I do not use your logical model, ie I dont assume everything you say is wrong now, based on one error)
Fine George, you've blown your negative trumpet a bit; how about telling me what you do do?

.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2006)

PhredC said:


> Sorry Jeeps, I could have said that I carry our bikes on a bike rack in the MH's garage, properly secured and therefore at no risk of the 2/3rds rule.
> I goofed, *it's 60%* not 2/3rds PhredC
> 
> My interests and antennae rose because our MH is German registered and perhaps to answer the next question - no that is not illegal for I am registered as a German resident prior to emigration in the next few weeks.
> ...


.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jeeps

Ok the only car they know of.

If you wish to pass this on to the NTTA then do so, I am not your messenger boy.

For the following I do not understand the point your are trying to make at all

*According to your logic if I accept part of what the NTTA (or someone) says then I have to accept all of it?, 
Correction George, you quoted that NTTA Okd towing a car with a GAUW of 750Kg or less 
this is of course totally ilogical. 
You or I or for that matter any organisation can of course be partially right. 
Can you identify those parts of this matter where you are partially correct George because I can't find them? *

Can you make the question understandable please

I was refering to the fact that I believe the NTTA can be wrong on one point and right on others, quite how you are trying to twist that to mean anything else I am not sure.

I have not ignored your questions, if you would like an answer please formulate a question that I can read and answer.

Also I did ask who you really are (ie what is your name or other usual alias ('s))


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi all

Just had a conversation with Bob Taylor of VOSA technical and Legal Dept and also Lawrence Thatcher of construction and Use Marsham just phoned back

If a trailer below 750KG has brakes fitted (which the car obviously does) then they must be fully operational, to make it legal you could remove the brake shoes and all associated brake parts.

According to Reg 15 through to 18 of the road vehicle contruction and use regulations (as amended)

For vehicles over 750 they must be fitted with overun braking system that allows reversing automatically, but this must be done mechanically and not electrically

Brake buddies are ilegal (Lawrence Thatcher), they do not conform to uk Law for trailer braking. The brakes on a trailer must be operated mechanically by the driver or on overun principle.

So there you have it towing a vehicle on an A frame (whethor over or under 750KG) for anything other than recovery is ilegal.


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## 96783 (Nov 23, 2005)

Yes Jeeps, silent P which then gives you Fred. I've found that when I tried to use FredC as a user name on almost anything that somebody else has already bagged it. Shows my devious mind I suspect. :wink: 

Thanks for the good wishes.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

George, I'm replying on this thread as I want to keep my thread from going off course, you will have noted no doubt the last posting on there.
You will I'm sure have the answer to this one, there was a case in Spain back in the 90's when someone was fined for towing with an A frame, they were later refunded with an appology by the Spainish Government, for something that's illegal?


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jim

Yes, they managed to convince the spanish that it was legal over here (which os patently not the case) An incorrect judgement but there you go.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Does that judgement not set some sort of president? One could say that you were driving on the outcome of the case, we are all EEC now!


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

No Jim

Its based on a mistake, the law quite clearly shows that it is wrong. One person bluffing the Spanish court does not a _*Precedent*_ make

From Wilkipedia

A recent decision in the same jurisdiction as the instant case will be given great weight. Next in descending order would be recent precedent in jurisdictions whose law is the same as local law. Least weight would be given to precedent which stems from dissimilar circumstances, older cases which have since been contradicted, or cases in jurisdictions which have dissimilar law.

Precedent is worthless when a clear reading of the law shows that it is wrong. (the faulty precedent)


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2006)

Hi Jeeps

*The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100. *

I've followed your spiel as best I can George.

As far as I am concerned NTTA are correct, and you are incorrect.
And that's it and all about it as far as I'm concerned.

Ok the only car they know of.

If you wish to pass this on to the NTTA then do so, I am not your messenger boy.

For the following I do not understand the point your are trying to make at all

*According to your logic if I accept part of what the NTTA (or someone) says then I have to accept all of it?, 
Correction George, you quoted that NTTA Okd towing a car with a GAUW of 750Kg or less 
this is of course totally ilogical. 
You or I or for that matter any organisation can of course be partially right. 
Can you identify those parts of this matter where you are partially correct George because I can't find them? *

Can you make the question understandable please

I was refering to the fact that I believe the NTTA can be wrong on one point and right on others, quite how you are trying to twist that to mean anything else I am not sure.

I have not ignored your questions, if you would like an answer please formulate a question that I can read and answer.

Also I did ask who you really are (ie what is your name or other usual alias ('s))[/quote]


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2006)

*The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100. *

I've followed your spiel, including this one, as best I can George.

As far as I am concerned NTTA are correct, and you are incorrect.
And that's it and all about it as far as I'm concerned.

Just had a conversation with Bob Taylor of VOSA technical and Legal Dept and also Lawrence Thatcher of construction and Use Marsham just phoned back

If a trailer below 750KG has brakes fitted (which the car obviously does) then they must be fully operational, to make it legal you could remove the brake shoes and all associated brake parts.

According to Reg 15 through to 18 of the road vehicle contruction and use regulations (as amended)

For vehicles over 750 they must be fitted with overun braking system that allows reversing automatically, but this must be done mechanically and not electrically

Brake buddies are ilegal (Lawrence Thatcher), they do not conform to uk Law for trailer braking. The brakes on a trailer must be operated mechanically by the driver or on overun principle.

So there you have it towing a vehicle on an A frame (whethor over or under 750KG) for anything other than recovery is ilegal.[/quote]


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2006)

guzzijim said:


> Does that judgement not set some sort of president? One could say that you were driving on the outcome of the case, we are all EEC now!


According to Towtal http://www.towtal.co.uk/fines1.pdf

The prosecution was for *towing a broken down car behind a vehicle not intended for towing broken down cars* Jim.
Spanish Law says that broken down cars can only be towed by specialist breakdown vehicles.

Since it is legal to tow a broken down car in the UK, the Court accepted that plea.

The Judgement on the sheet was therefore was correct.
However, I feel that Towtal use the translation of the fines sheet improperly.

The judgement sets at least two precedents: -

1) . . . . That it is OK for a Brit reg car to tow a broken down Brit car in Spain.
2) . . . . The unofficial one that the Spanish Police are likely to check that the car is broken down, and accompany the broken down car to a repairer.

.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jeepster

I am not going to get involved in a flame war. Much as you try with little snipes like Spiel and Floundering. All the bluster and still the Evidence says you are wrong Jeeps, but its up to the people to decide who they believe.

I have never said that towing a broken down vehicle is against the regs in fact just the opposite I say its the only legal way. {Please check back through the posts.}

The NTTA are a business organisation representing an industry and they are incorrect, the law as written says they are incorrect, I rang Vosa to confirm and Construction and use (if it ever comes to court C&U will be there because they are mentioned specifically in the legislation as the people who decide classifications), both agree that the law is clear on this if brakes are fitted they must be operational, clearly they are not operational ergo its against the law. Brake buddy is not legal either.

Amazing they towed a broken down vehicle all the way from the UK, Hello is there anybody home? they managed to pull a flanker, its perfectly obvious, or are we supposed to believe that they just got an A frame and number plates made up on the spot? Why the spanish court didnt spot this obvious point I just cannot imagine. I doubt they will let anyone else get away with it. I am glad to see that you are saying that its unlikely that they will let anyone will get away with it again.


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## chellaman (May 18, 2005)

There weren't many replies to my original post!!! Most of the rest was covering old ground by old adversaries! All interesting stuff anyway.
What I was trying to imply was that, in the other countries I've been to, the cops seem either not to know about A-frame illegality, or they don't care! Since the Germans NEVER use an A-frame, I really needed some indication of how the German cops viewed Brits using them. 
Irrespective of any answers, I still intend to traverse Germany using mine, but probably won't dally! Or maybe drive the short route at night!
As with lots of laws, the ones for RVs and A-frames are not totally explicit, which is why everyone interprets them differently(promoting interesting argument!), and why there are no prosecutions.
I was the subject of quite a big scam a year ago. I tried to involve police, traffic police, Trading Standards, VOSA, DVLA, and a huge weighbridge company.
NONE OF THEM WANTED TO KNOW!!! So now I don't want to know and, at my well-retired age, if they want to prosecute me for some trivial illegality, come and get me!!!
Guzzijim, to answer your question, I should be crossing Germany at the beginning of June and returning the middle of August. 
Good luck to all A-framers and Trailers, braked or unbraked!


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"You will I'm sure have the answer to this one, there was a case in Spain back in the 90's when someone was fined for towing with an A frame, they were later refunded with an appology by the Spainish Government, for something that's illegal?"

Guzzijim,

I think you will find that's the one I referred to in the last link in my post earlier in this thread:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-108628.html#108628

Dave


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## ollybear (May 16, 2005)

chellaman,

the reason why german motorhomers do not use A-frames is not the police being more strikt than in any other country in europe. 

It just isnt considered worth the trouble to risk your insurance in the case of an accident.

I think your personal risk of getting a fine or being stopped for using the A-frame is similar in every european country. 

This is only my opinion, I have no personal experience in this subject,

Best wishes from germany,

Rainer


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2006)

Best wishes from germany,​
Rainer

Hi Rainer what do you reckon to: -

a) . . . . Getting details of an A-frame.
b) . . . . Taking the details to a State MOT place.
c) . . . . Asking how you get it 'plated' for use with a motorhome with a suitably plated towbar.

I believe the German word for 'plate' is 'Kraftfahrzeugschein'.

And the German for 'MOT' is 'TUV'.

However, I found my command of the German language was such that your countrymen prefered English.
I also found that the question 'how' produced much better results than 'can I' when I needed to get a problem 'camel' through official ears.

I think that your information will help many people understand the situation.

.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2006)

Are you still in Germany PFred?

If so, what do you reckon to: -

a) . . . . Getting details of an A-frame.
b) . . . . Taking the details to a State MOT place.
c) . . . . Asking how you get it 'plated' for use with a motorhome with a suitably plated towbar.

I believe the German word for 'plate' is 'Kraftfahrzeugschein'.

And the German for 'MOT' is 'TUV'.

However, I found my command of the German language was such that Germans prefered English.
I also found that the question 'how' produced much better results than 'can I' when I needed to get a problem camel through official ears.

.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jeeps (Dave)

Its against EEC directives, ergo there is no way to shuffle this past, the C&U mods are based on the EEC directive, Germany are even less likely to let it ride than any other country


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2006)

*chellaman asked*

"Hs anybody had any experience, either personally or heresay, about Brits towing with an A-Frame in Germany?"​

If you contact SMMT Chellaman, 
http://www.smmt.co.uk/site/contactus.cfm?CFID=2206492&CFTOKEN=40440633
they will "give" you a written statement that it is legal to tow an unbraked car that has a Gross Maximum Weight of 750Kg or less with a Brit reg Car.

It should cost you around £40 for their written advice.

Their advice is the very best that you are going to get.

The SMMT, is the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders.
They don't come more Authoritive than the SMMT.

Once you have the SMMT letter stating that's it's OK to use an unbraked A-frame with an under 750Kg GVW car, then you can use that rig in any EU country.

Similarly, your insurance company cannot walk away from you when you most need them.

The SMMT will also sell you a guide to the law on trailers.

.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2006)

Hi Jeeps (Dave)

Your spyware is exceedingly intrusive George.

*Are you authorized to spy on members?*​
My machine was secondhand.

Dave was on it when I got it.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jeeps (Dave)

Unfortunately a £40 pce of paper is not going to change the law, and the voice of the Kit car and small run car manufacturer's is hardly the Equivelent to the C&U and VOSA where trailer law in the UK and Erope are concerned.


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

You guys really are something else. You sure you werent Politicians in a past life  Lifes too short for all this nit pickin. Chellaman asked a simple question at the start of this thread, one which I and a lot of people would like an answer to from members who have been there and done it. My question would be has anybody ever had a problem using an A frame in countries other than Spain or France period. We have all had more than an insight into what the laws are supposed to say. The fact that they arent followed up by our own and French and Spanish police means to me that they cant be bothered for some reason. Its a bit like Georges argument about all motorhomes being non goods vehicles for driving licence purposes. He argues that nobodys ever been done in a court of law for driving an RV over 7.5 tonnes on a car licence. I followed his arguments with interest because I drive my own lorries upto 7.5 tonnes but cannot drive the 37ft RV that I have just purchased to live in or can I?


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Tony

Seperate thread required for the live in question, live in vans are a whole different ball of beeswax. If you can refrain from making comment's like this one from earlier "Dont you just love these argumentative know alls with verbal dirrohea." I will be happy to help you in your quest.

But I have to say this is not the same at all, police in any European country can prosecute you for towing with an A frame, because the law is clear, it is ilegal. 

With the licence situation there is no law against driving a motorhome of any weight as long as the Axles comply with C&U regs because Motorhomes like minibuses are not weight restricted, because of this it would then be legal in EU countries, the only thing that worries me with this in EU is that this amnesty doesnt appear to cover all eventualities, I have heard that its still ilegal to ride a Scooter when under 18 in Italy regardless off the fact that its OK in UK, But like I say thats another thread.


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