# Towing on an A-frame



## Chetty

Please give views and experiences of towing a small car using an A-frame, I've just read in this months (April 07) issue of MMM that future changes to EU law on towing will mean it may become illegal to tow car on a frame.

Whether this true or just a bit of scare mongering I don't know, your thoughts please.
Rob & Di


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## Sparrow

Please don't tell me this. 
I have just decided to get an A frame fitted and was going to contact Chris Cox this week. 
Now you tell me its going to be illegal thanks to our friends in the EU. 
Anybody out there can confirm this story. 

Now the debate starts again on the benefits of Trailer versus A frame. 

Mike


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## klubnomad

Hi

towing with an A frame on mainland europe has always been a grey area. In Spain you are not allowed to tow a vehicle unless you are a recovery vehicle altho the Spanish Police have turned a blind eye. the reason being, is that using an A Frame is legal in the home country. If this rule come in, it will cause a lot of problems for those in this country where A frames are legal at present - EDIT- where there use is tolerated.

Dave

656


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## Don_Madge

Chetty said:


> Please give views and experiences of towing a small car using an A-frame, I've just read in this months (April 07) issue of MMM that future changes to EU law on towing will mean it may become illegal to tow car on a frame.
> 
> Whether this true or just a bit of scare mongering I don't know, your thoughts please.
> Rob & Di


Hi Rob & Di

This was published in the MMM some while back. With Aframes you pay your money and you take your chances.

Safe travelling

Don

The problem with A frames is simple:

1. To be legal trailers, they must display all trailer signs (including white bordered rear reflector) and MUST be braked (there is no realistic car under 750 Kg's Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)).

2. The law relating to trailers is now uniform in just about all respects across the EU. This law says nothing about A-frames at all, except in respect of vehicle recovery where special rules do apply.

3. The first question is does the A-frame, overrun braking system and peripherals turn the car into a trailer? Nobody has yet tested this in court, so we simply don't know.

4. Even if it does become a trailer, is it legal? A problem, since English Law basically works on the principle that, if it ain't again the law then it's legal. The French (Napoleonic) system works on the opposite principle - if it isn't specifically permitted by the law, then it's not legal. That's why it isn't legal in most of Europe.

5. Relying on the rule that, if it's legal in your own country, then you can legally import a vehicle for up to 6 months into any other EU country is, to say the least, fraught, since it is NOT clear whether or not it's actually legal in the UK.

6. So most of the time, yes, the locals look on in a mixture of amazement and envy, since they definitely cannot do it! Most Police take the same attitude, but not all. I have met four A-frame towers who have been subject to on-the-spot fines; all, fortunately had a second driver, so could uncouple the car and continue separately.

A final point - this can be a very simple way of towing a car. But my own experience, using the market leading system, was far from comfortable. As I've said before, I was cautious enough to fit temp and pressure sensors to the car's wheels, radio connected to a display in the towing vehicle. When the brakes failed to release properly (first a problem of bad fitting by the supplier and then a fairly common brake caliper problem), this system sounded the warnings before all the tyres overheated and blew out (they reached 85C on one occasion).

So I'm no longer sure of the system's safety or reliability and I've stopped towing. After all, none of these systems are subjected to the testing a car undergoes, or that undergone by trailer suspensions, brakes, etc. A simple problem with the brakes not releasing will cause a potentially serious accident.


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## 97993

> in this country where A frames are legal at present.


May I suggest a new termonoligy here
"where there use is tolerated" 
that may prevent a string of repeat arguments
Geo


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## peedee

There have been rumours about this for a couple of years now but I have seen no official documentatioon on this whatsoever. Does the give any references?
Last Saturday I saw three British vans here in Spain
all heading for Bilbao towing with an A Frame one of which hadjust passed a police check point totally unhindered. FYI the weather is cold and wet down here and itlooks much better in the UK

peedee


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## LandCruiser

The comments by Mel Eastwood in the mag picked-up on the point which many A-framers rely upon ..."if its legal in the home country its acceptable in other member states (for no more than 6 months)."

Mel E now believes this "viewpoint" to be incorrect, having researched the matter; he gives the example of importing a vehicle into the UK where (he says) the law requires the vehicle to comply with British Construction & Use Regs IMMEDIATELY, if it is used on the roads here; he suggests similar situations prevail in the EU where the A-frame is illegal, locally (outside of the UK that is !).

It just looks like "harmonisation" will eventually resolve the issue, negatively, from an A-framers point of view.


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## 97993

> he gives the example of importing a vehicle into the UK where (he says) the law requires the vehicle to comply with British Construction & Use Regs IMMEDIATELY,


 We were talking Visiting not importing, you saying all visitors to this country need converting? there would be a queue of lorrys 50 miles long up the M1


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## 101342

Hi people,

We have "A Framed" my wifes Pug 206 behind our last MH, a Rapido and our latest Chieftain tag axle G, its a braked A frame and so far we have had no problems or issues, that said we only use it in the UK. When abroad we have a small Piaggio that was on a rack on the Rapido but now goes in the garage of the Chieftain.

I have read with interest all the pertinent magazine articles and have even asked my daughter (a MET police officer) to research this issue and she could find nothing specific either for or against. As many of you have noted its a tough one. If you apply the RTA and NTA rules a trailer (thats what the A framed car becomes) has to have the ability to be reversed whilst attached to the towing vehicle. this can not be achieved with an A frame as the front wheels just lock over, so in this case they are not "legal" A real problem if you don't have a second driver and hence the ability to uncouple and drive the car separately, is if you get into a place that you can not drive forwards out off. 

The reason that most of us in the UK don't get hassle is, I suspect, a function of several things, we Motor Homers are generally sensible drivers who take care of our equipment and are cautious in the way we use it, the police themselves see this as a grey area and, as one post mentions, it seems that the use of an A frame has not been tested in law. 

Whilst it may well become a legislated no-no once the Eurocrats get involved for now I will continue to use this system here in the UK. (The long term solution may well be a Smart car on a single axle trailer but......)


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## Rapide561

*A Frames*

Hello

I would like to see a copy of the article. Could anyone scan it and email it please?

Russell


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## Noel

Rapido1 said:


> If you apply the RTA and NTA rules a trailer (thats what the A framed car becomes) has to have the ability to be reversed whilst attached to the towing vehicle. this can not be achieved with an A frame as the front wheels just lock over, so in this case they are not "legal" .)


I don't agree with this comment, I can auto-reverse my set up in a straight/ish line for as far as I want or need on a hard surface, on a softer surface I only need to apply the car's steering lock, more than most caravanners can achieve! So, the "ability" IS achieved as the regs do not quantify or qualify with either distance or angles.

Regards,

Noel.


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## eddievanbitz

I can confirm that categorically towing a car on an A frame is shortly to be made illegal, in this and any other Country.

The fine will be in the region of about £1000 per offence committed and SIX penalty points

Sorry but I have proof! 8O


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## Noel

eddievanbitz said:


> I can confirm that categorically towing a car on an A frame is shortly to be made illegal, in this and any other Country.
> 
> The fine will be in the region of about £1000 per offence committed and SIX penalty points
> 
> Sorry but I have proof! 8O


So please show us this proof!


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## 101411

eddievanbitz said:


> I can confirm that categorically towing a car on an A frame is shortly to be made illegal, in this and any other Country.
> 
> The fine will be in the region of about £1000 per offence committed and SIX penalty points
> 
> Sorry but I have proof! 8O


Any other country!!!!!! My My thats a very big sweeping statement. Are you for 1 minute suggesting they are going to ban A frames in the USA?? Where towing a "toad" with 4 wheels down behind an RV is standard practice??

Not till hell freezes over im afraid and if USA wont do it then neither will Canada or Mexico. Which is a pretty large % of the planets population!!

India and Africa have more important things to worry about (like feeding there people) so thats them out of the running as well!!

I think you need to check your facts before you go making such broad far reaching statements

Dazzer


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## 2kias

eddievanbitz said:


> I can confirm that categorically towing a car on an A frame is shortly to be made illegal, in this and any other Country.
> 
> The fine will be in the region of about £1000 per offence committed and SIX penalty points
> 
> Sorry but I have proof! 8O


Please produce the proof then!!!!!!

We have an 'A' frame and Smart car. We do not take it abroad as the facilities for MH's are so much better and the car chugging behind is a pain in the neck. We use it when we are visiting family here in the UK.
If it becomes illegal then we will just put it on a trailer. If that happens then we might aswell go back to caravanning blocking the roads and using more fuel!

Trouble is, the more this is discussed the more the powers to be will think there is a problem, which there isn't!


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## eddievanbitz

Simple! After years of not being able to make up my mind I am today collecting a Trios 4X4 to tow behind my Winnie. Car A Tow are fitting my frame on Friday, so given my usual luck A Frames are bound to be declared illegal on Monday with a huge punitive fine. 

Further proof? I ordered the car two weeks before Gordon announced that he was going to hike the tax on 4X4's :lol:


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## 2kias

eddievanbitz said:


> Simple! After years of not being able to make up my mind I am today collecting a Trios 4X4 to tow behind my Winnie. Car A Tow are fitting my frame on Friday, so given my usual luck A Frames are bound to be declared illegal on Monday with a huge punitive fine.
> 
> Further proof? I ordered the car two weeks before Gordon announced that he was going to hike the tax on 4X4's :lol:


Eddie, Think your previous comments were a bit irresponsible, particularly coming from someone in the industry.


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## 97993

Eddie I think your comments are indeed well founded 
check out Murphys and Sods Laws :lol: 
Geo


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## sersol

Hi all, I neither have or intend to have an A Frame.
I gave up towing when I sold my caravan,I always wonder why as m/h's get bigger why do people find the need to tow a car :? Perhaps its a size thing that applies to us MEN :wink: nothing better than a 40' outfit well only a 45'outfit.
Surly if you wish to tow why not get a caravan,ok you may say "but I can't get the m/h where I want to go" easy get a smaller m/h. My own vehicle is 24' & I've not had any problems getting where I wanted to go,I've legs :lol: & normally there is a local bus service.
The exception to this rule may be full timing.
I may be wrong (& sometimes am) but as I see it towing an "A Frame is only legal because as YET nobody has been prosecuted  .
The loudest shouting comes from them that MAY be breaking the current law.
On a personal level I have no feeling about "A Frames",each to their own "live & let live"
Good luck
Gary


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## eddievanbitz

Hi 2kias

I think that it may have been a pointless posting but hardly irresponsible. If it brought a smile to anyones face then it was worth it.

For the record Lynda and I thought like Sersol that we couldn't see the point in towing a car, but having towed a 58 foot unit for the last four years we have got fed up with dragging a big RIB around Europe so thought we would take a little blow up boat, launching trailer and engine, all of which will fit into and be launched from the little 4X4

I still maintain motorhoming is like religion. What I believe doesn't make me right or wrong, and I may change my views in the future. Neither should I try to persuade or dictate to anyone else my views, because they are, at the end of the day only opinions.


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## sersol

Nicely put Eddie.
Gary


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## bognormike

there are 3 things that get tempers fraying in the world of motorhomes 

so called gas attacks
height barriers 
and A frame legality

please keep cool folks 8)


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## Rapide561

*A Frames*

Mike

In addition to the above three, you may as well add driving licence regulations for RVs at the same time!

Seriously, let's not fall out.

I have an A frame and as a singleton, could be in the brown stuff....I would drive the Swift back and fly back to collect the car. Not ideal, but, well, we shall have to wait and see I guess.

Russell


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## artona

Hi Mike



> there are 3 things that get tempers fraying in the world of motorhomes
> 
> so called gas attacks
> height barriers
> and A frame legality


I could generate a fouth one as well :lol: :lol: :lol:

stew


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## metblue

*a frame/towing*

Hi to all,re above this cherry has been going around for years,its down to your own preference.Being disabled and have plates and pins in my wrist mine is to have a "a frame" i can manage this easily enough.I have tried a trailer but lifting/fitting and carrying trailer boards I cannot do! also I know everybody says that you cannot tow in Spain but,a couple of years ago it was illegal to tow trailers behind motorbikes but after representations by the goldwing owners club GB and goldwing owners club Europe an amendment to the law was made by EEC that if it was allowed in your home country then you as an indivual can temporarily take it legally into another EEC country.All the members of the above clubs were given translations of this legally binding agreement.If it's good enough for them then it's good enough for me. If anyone wants a copy contact GWOCGB.co.uk
hope this helps,
Tom


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## 98452

Well reading April edition of "Motor Caravan" on page 109 has John Wickersham (who write for many magazines) was watching one fitted and states that because they are braked and lighting meets requirements they are legal.

I will carrying on using mine anyway.


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## 2kias

eddievanbitz said:


> Hi 2kias
> 
> I think that it may have been a pointless posting but hardly irresponsible. If it brought a smile to anyones face then it was worth it.
> 
> For the record Lynda and I thought like Sersol that we couldn't see the point in towing a car, but having towed a 58 foot unit for the last four years we have got fed up with dragging a big RIB around Europe so thought we would take a little blow up boat, launching trailer and engine, all of which will fit into and be launched from the little 4X4
> 
> I still maintain motorhoming is like religion. What I believe doesn't make me right or wrong, and I may change my views in the future. Neither should I try to persuade or dictate to anyone else my views, because they are, at the end of the day only opinions.


Sorry, had a sense of humour bypass today!


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## eddievanbitz

No Problem at all  

regards

Eddie


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## TonyHunt

Maybe all the hundreds nay probably into the thousands of us who use A frames responsibly and sensibly in this country and abroad should be getting ourselves organised to get them legalised so that our friends in the european motorhoming fraternity can legally use them also. Everywhere we travel abroad we have dozens of them thronging over our outfit everywhere we stop for the night to see how it all works. The idea of a framing is a brilliant one and has been proven to be as safe as any other means of towing. The main accidents you see which are towing related are always Caravans that have jacknifed because the idiot driving them hasnt a clue how to handle them or have had wheels come adrift through bad or no maintenance.


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## peedee

As a first step can I suggest those of us who are members of the CC and C&CC lobby them to establish what is going on and to ask them to support the full EEC legalisation of A Frames

peedee


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## Rapide561

*A frames*



peedee said:


> As a first step can I suggest those of us who are members of the CC and C&CC lobby them to establish what is going on and to ask them to support the full EEC legalisation of A Frames
> 
> peedee


Sounds like a fair starting point to me.

Russell


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## 98452

Yupp good idea to get organised.

Must admit i have been torn to bit by caravaner and don't get it as I don't slag caravans and never will as had many happy years tugging.

Poor loading/vehicle matching is the main reason for them overturning.


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## TonyHunt

Russell. your good at getting results how about starting the ball rolling for us with some well placed letters not only to the clubs but also maybe a bit higher. AA, RAC, Members of Parliament etc, etc.
RR I wasnt having a go at the sensible caravanners out there who know what they are doing indeed I was one for some time. Its the dipsticks who hatch up because theres a Bank Holiday looming and who just have to go somewhere to get out of the cities with not a thought to maintenance since they last used their van. Living on one of the main Trunk roads (A31-M27) to the Dorset Beaches I regularly see them turned over or jacked up with their weekends ruined.


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## 98452

Tony I know your were not and I am agreeing with you in my usual poor way :roll:   

I took great offence after being asked about my RV to find myself then being torn to pieces by supposed caravaning friends.

I still love vans though and cant understand some of the hostility to us :roll:


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## chellaman

Noel wrote:
"I can auto-reverse my set up in a straight/ish line for as far as I want or need on a hard surface".

Sorry!
This statement is just rubbish!!!
Sometimes, reversing on the level or downhill, it is possible for a very short distance when the rig has stopped perfectly straight fore/aft. But even this can't be relied on.
Due to the castoring action of the toad's front wheels, the reason why it follows the M/H in the first place, the wheels very quickly turn to full lock one way or the other!


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## Noel

peedee said:


> As a first step can I suggest those of us who are members of the CC and C&CC lobby them to establish what is going on and to ask them to support the full EEC legalisation of A Frames
> 
> peedee


Went to an invitation question and answer session of the western area of the CC last year at Salisbury racecourse and it is a complete waste of time getting any backing from them. They are completely behind the NTTA and other vested interests in discouraging the practice.

Noel.


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## Noel

chellaman said:


> Noel wrote:
> "I can auto-reverse my set up in a straight/ish line for as far as I want or need on a hard surface".
> 
> Sorry!
> This statement is just rubbish!!!
> Sometimes, reversing on the level or downhill, it is possible for a very short distance when the rig has stopped perfectly straight fore/aft. But even this can't be relied on.
> Due to the castoring action of the toad's front wheels, the reason why it follows the M/H in the first place, the wheels very quickly turn to full lock one way or the other!


No it is not "rubbish", please do not use insults about something you obviously know nothing about and is outside your limited experience! I have done this loads of times over 2 years of a-frameing, as I said, with _my_ outfit. Ever heard of friction and line of least resistance, which is to roll, NOT castor? The wheels will NOT castor on reasonable hard UK road surfaces, I don't know about your "rubbish" Spanish ones, but this, as I also said, can be overcome by putting the car's steering lock on (remembering to free it again when going forward).


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## klubnomad

Noel said:


> [ I also said, can be overcome by putting the car's steering lock on (remembering to free it again when going forward).


Hang on, when I put the steering lock on on my car, the wheels are turned to the left slightly. This is certainly enough to stop the car going in a straight line.



Noel said:


> You obviously know nothing about and is outside your limited experience!


Was this really nessesary? We are all friends here! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, we have free sppeach on this forum.

Dave

656


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## Noel

656 said:


> Noel said:
> 
> 
> 
> [ I also said, can be overcome by putting the car's steering lock on (remembering to free it again when going forward).
> 
> 
> 
> Hang on, when I put the steering lock on on my car, the wheels are turned to the left slightly. This is certainly enough to stop the car going in a straight line.
> 
> 
> 
> Noel said:
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously know nothing about and is outside your limited experience!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was this really nessesary? We are all friends here! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, we have free sppeach on this forum.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 656
Click to expand...

Strange, mine remain straight! As to the whether my comment was neccessary, probably, if it discourages his intemperate and unneccessary "rubbishing" of my original free speech and opinion.

Noel.


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## 2kias

Haven't tried reversing yet but my Smart ain't got no steering lock!!!!
Surely if you reverse then the front wheels become the rear wheels and should follow the back ones without spinning round. I am sure someone will disprove my logic!!!


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## bognormike

I will ask again, please calm down gentlemen. there's no need to fall out over this.


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## geraldandannie

I think when Noel said "put on my steering lock", he meant turning the wheel to 12 o'clock, and taking the key out (therefore locking the steering wheel in that position).

As opposed to "putting on lock" or somesuch. Misinterpretation, methinks.

Gerald


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## chellaman

I'm afraid Noel seems like a real hothead from his aggressive outburst!
And a whole two years' experience too!!!
P.S. The line of least resistance for a castorable wheel is to castor!


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## 88781

If you set the steering lock by removing the key from the ignition, then no matter which way the wheels are pointing either straight or left/right slightly, then you are asking for trouble IMO, the towed car will not naturally follow the motorhome, and severe tyre scrub will occur to say the least.

MnD


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## olley

Hi I have nicked this of another site. :wink: 

Reversing:

The outfit must be capable of being reversed for whatever distance is necessary including turning if required to complete the manouvre.

Clearly this is impossible. Yes no specific distance is specified but "under full control of the driver of the towing vehicle" means just that. No A frame towed vehicle can be reversed round a bend, for example, under the full control of the driver of the towing vehicle because the castor angle of the front suspension of the towed vehicle will lock the steering over to full lock as soon as it gets deflected by either a turning force or an uneven road surface. 

Olley


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## 97993

I belive Noel's comment re being able to reverse true, i also belive that with the steering locked in the straight ahead posision it would be relativly easy and futher belive full control and turning may be practical, as with the wheels locked it would act no different to a 4 wheel trailor, picking up on Daves comment indeed the tyres may get scuffed, but thats not the debating point is it?,
Chellamans response was niether constructive or polite,
Noel's response to chellaman was to be expected and IMO deserved
Next time out with thw towed car I am going to try all the above manovers purly to satisfy myself
May i also point out that some A frames are more suited by design for reversing small distances and even state those facts in the advertisment
lastly i know my splelligs crap,so is my driving, keep outa the way when I try it
Geo :lol:


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## sersol

Geo,have you consided that the four wheels on a trailer are much closer together than a car & further back (normally) than the towing point for a car ?. As I recall it was much easier reversing my 24' tandam axle caravan than a small trailer.
Just a thought. :idea: 
Gary


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## Noel

MandyandDave said:


> If you set the steering lock by removing the key from the ignition, then no matter which way the wheels are pointing either straight or left/right slightly, then you are asking for trouble IMO, the towed car will not naturally follow the motorhome, and severe tyre scrub will occur to say the least.
> 
> MnD


Good grief, I did say, this is only to reverse a few yards to prevent castor over over soft ground NOT for normal foward towing!!!!!


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## Noel

chellaman said:


> I'm afraid Noel seems like a real hothead from his aggressive outburst!
> And a whole two years' experience too!!!
> P.S. The line of least resistance for a castorable wheel is to castor!


1) The original aggression was yours. 2) Two years a-frameing over 1000's of miles is enough to prove my point for my set up, I'm truly very sorry if your set up/skills cannot achieve a simple reverse 3) Car wheels are not shopping trolleys and are not designed to castor but steer and with tyre and linkage friction over a hard surface (particularly asphalt) that is what they will generally default to.


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## camoyboy

I think this issue about reversing is easily overcome. A trailer is a trailer whether it is connected to a tow hitch or not, and can only be reversed when attached. A tow car is only a "trailer" when it is coupled to the tow hitch, when it is disconnected it becomes a car again. Therefore if a reversing situation arises, disconnect, and use the reversing features of the car. In law the trailer would no longer exist, as it has just become a car again (even if it has got a big lump on metal attached to the front of it). 
I have to say in six years of towing with the car on the back I have never needed to reverse , I guess tomorrow will be the first time!!
Colin


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## des

i can no longer resist joining in. have been towing on an a-frame for about 15k miles. reversing is possible, including turning. the wheels do occasionally flip to full lock, but a short forward shunt will straighten them again. no regulations re manoevring forbid a shunt. including the c+e test, where this is most certainly permitted. 

however, as has happened before on this (and other) forum, contributors have entrenched positions which do not always take into account all the facts.

i am particularly concerned to hear that within a month, towing using an a-frame will be illegal, carrying a max fine of £1000, and 6 penalty points. is anyone able to substantiate this?

with regard to pressure groups to clarify this grey area, i would prefer a low profile, as the most likely outcome of clarification is an outright ban. 

des


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## spykal

des said:


> snip: i am particularly concerned to hear that within a month, towing using an a-frame will be illegal, carrying a max fine of £1000, and 6 penalty points. is anyone able to substantiate this?


 :roll: it was TIC Des... a joke  , please read the follow up.

Mike

P.S. this is posted in the interests of the innocent :lol:

P.P.S. and who are the innocent?.... those of us who are reading this and do not have an A Frame :roll:


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## frenchfancy

So where is you proof please?


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## 98452

Reversing a twin axle caravan is easier than a single as it doesn't dance around like a single.

Wonder with the car having a larger wheelbase and less A frame make it more awkward.


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## aido

*post subject*

Found on another forum regarding A Frames

A Fiat Cinquinto Nissan Micra, would be the cheapest or a Smart Car but you must Use a Dolly or trailer in Europe, "A" frames are still used in the UK but Definitly not in France Spain or Germany

-----------------
"A stranger is a friend you have yet to meet"

aido


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## aido

*post subject*

Found on another forum re A frames.

The French police will stop you make you disconnect the car and drive it, a second time they will seize the car and fine you,

-----------------
"aido


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## 2kias

*Re: post subject*



aido said:


> Found on another forum re A frames.
> 
> The French police will stop you make you disconnect the car and drive it, a second time they will seize the car and fine you,
> 
> -----------------
> "aido


What rubbish! We have seen loads of people with 'A' frames in France although we don't take ours. The car is a damn nuisance if you use the MH for what it is intended for 'Touring'


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## chellaman

Now then, 2kias, you are not allowed to use the word "rubbish".
See the ranting reply from Noel when I used it earlier in this thread!!!
I also received a PM warning from the moderator, Bognormike, for using the word rubbish in a reply.
I see you got a normal reaction i.e. acceptance that it is a word in everyday use in discussion!


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## 2kias

chellaman said:


> Now then, 2kias, you are not allowed to use the word "rubbish".
> See the ranting reply from Noel when I used it earlier in this thread!!!
> I also received a PM warning from the moderator, Bognormike, for using the word rubbish in a reply.
> I see you got a normal reaction i.e. acceptance that it is a word in everyday use in discussion!


Rubbish is better than c**p I think!


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## peedee

Have to agree with you 2kias. There are more and more doing it and the police are only taking notice out of curiosity. There are current A-Frames on site here at Bonterra Park in Spain.
peedee


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## kijana

We haven't had any problems with the law in France or Spain yet, despite numerous police passing us on the road. And we don't yet have the reflective triangles or other trailer markings fitted to the Smart (will do asap.) 

Maybe we've just been lucky, but we'll continue to enjoy the advantages of our A frame until someone tells us not to.

Don Madge, I was most interested to read your reference to the common problem of calipers sticking and overheating the brakes.

I check the temperature of discs & drums by hand every time we stop, and recently one of the front discs on the Smart has been very hot, the other cold. I took this to be a sticky caliper slide or piston. My (temporary) solution has been to not connect the braking cable, thereby plunging myself deeper into the realms of criminality. Made worse by the lack of brake lights with no car braking.

So what is the solution to this problem? The car drives fine when disconnected, with no apparent braking or overheating disc problems.

I would pulll the offending caliper assembly off, but being a Smart one of the mounting bolts is 5-sided, or so I believe. . .

Any input gratefully received. Damondunc?

Cheers

Bruce


----------



## 98452

Bruce my brakelights on the car work from the RV lights.

How are your connected?


----------



## kijana

A Smart's brakelights are 'hardwired' according to the A frame fitters. 

I think what they mean by this is that there is a mechanical switch on the brake pedal operating the brakelights, independent of the ignition being on. Since the braking system pulls on the brake pedal, normally the system would show brakelights when braking.

I suppose I could faff around connecting the RV power supply to the TOAD brakelight wiring, but I'd rather get the braking system working, if only to get as near to satisfying trailer law as possible.

Though weighing in excess of 8 tonnes and towing a Smart of less than 700kg, I don't notice any difference at all in braking performance.


Bruce


----------



## anita302

My sister and her husband were travelling down the M5 (Glous) driving an RV with a KA on the rear attached to a braked 'A' frame. Behind them was another RV (They were not together) also towing a car on the rear. 

The police appeared alongside them and indicated that they wanted them to get off the motorway and go onto the next Services with them. (They also did the same with the other RV behind them).

On getting to the Services and stopping the police then inspected their 'A' frame even by getting under the KA and looking at the fittings. They asked them a few questions and checked it was braked and then told them it was fine and to carry on there way.

The other RV which was towing on a 'A' frame was not so lucky as it was not a braked 'A' frame. My sister does not know the full outcome of what happened to these people. 

But, it goes to show that as its stands they are allowing braked 'A' frames to be used.

I also have an RV which we tow on a braked 'A' and we've never had any problems.


----------



## Noel

chellaman said:


> Now then, 2kias, you are not allowed to use the word "rubbish".
> See the ranting reply from Noel when I used it earlier in this thread!!!
> I also received a PM warning from the moderator, Bognormike, for using the word rubbish in a reply.
> I see you got a normal reaction i.e. acceptance that it is a word in everyday use in discussion!


I see you are not prepared to let this lie. Your inaccurate and unjustified rubbishing was direct and personal to another member of THIS forum who was trying to contribute in good faith. 2kias was responding to a quote on another forum which aido merely reproduced. There is a difference, which most reasonable people will recognise.


----------



## Noel

anita302 said:


> But, it goes to show that as its stands they are allowing braked 'A' frames to be used.


And so they should! As all cars have brakes then these must be operable when towed irrespective of weight, although even the Smart has a _gross_ weight of above 750kgs. It is unfortunate that some a-frame manufacturers (Towtal for one) perpetuate the wrong assertion that you can tow cars below 750kgs unladen weight on an unbraked a-frame and lead customers to break trailer regulations and put a-frame legality into a grey area.


----------



## 98452

Hi Bruce

My Chris Cox braked frame is wired up just like a caravan and has a 7 pin socket under my car bonnet which is connected to the RV's 7 pin socket at it's towbar so as the RV brakes and other lights come on so does my Kia Cerato's rear lights.


----------



## Noel

RR said:


> Hi Bruce
> 
> My Chris Cox frame is wired up just like a caravan and has a 7 pin socket under my car bonnet which is connected to the RV's 7 pin socket so as the RV brakes and other lights come on so does my Kia Cerato's rear lights.


Yes, so does mine on the Daihatsu charade but some cars do not allow this because of the way their internal wiring works and the only way round it, if you want the MH to control the brake lighting other than by physically appying the car's brakes, it to use a lighting board attached to the car and connected direct to the MH.


----------



## 98452

OK so if the 7 pin socket is not used how do you run the side lights and indicators?


----------



## kijana

I do use the connector - it's just the brake light power lines aren't used.


----------



## Noel

RR said:


> OK so if the 7 pin socket is not used how do you run the side lights and indicators?


The 7 pin socket on the MH is connected to the 7 pin socket on the lighting board which replaces the car's lighting (as on a trailer without its own lights)


----------



## quartet

*Current Position of A frames*

Hi
Thinking of towing a Smart car behing Bessacarr E560 home and abroad. Assured by fitters at NEC that if it's legal here, it is abroad, quoting some Vienna convention
Any body got a similar setup?
Any probs?
What is the effect on MPG?
Can you get in on the tunnel trains? Or ferries?
Is the cost prohibitive for channel crossings?
Is the A frame cost of about £900 fitted about right?
Thanks 
Barry


----------



## fatwallet

*a frames*

hi barry. just returned from a six week tour of eastern europe inc germany no problems at all with the smart on a A frame lots of lookes at borders and some questions from the police but only nice enquires as to how good does the smart tow. we paid £650 at chris cox in solihull first class service. len


----------



## androidGB

Barry,

Took our Matiz on an A frame on Eurotunnnel now problem. Initially booked a crossing without the car and was around £110 for our 8.3 metre van, adding the car was an additional £80 or so.


Andrew


----------



## 105069

I have been watching this thread all the way and as I "A" frame myself and have done for the past 12 months without incident and with the full knowledge of my insurance company, it appears that a number of people intimate by there replies that they have something against "A" Frames and get off on the fact that they believe it to be illegal, some of the replies have been intimidating and nasty, all this on a friendly site? I thought this was a debate,not a slagging match. All I can say to the rest of you who like me do "A"frame is, you pays your money and take your chance, until I am pulled over and told to unhook, fined, or otherwise, I will be towing my Matiz behind me whenever I feel the need. If its so illegal, I have not seen any evidence of fines or prosecution for the use of one yet, If the police believe it to be a "grey" area, then I for one will be taking advantage of it.


----------



## DJP

> I have been watching this thread all the way and as I "A" frame myself and have done for the past 12 months without incident and with the full knowledge of my insurance company, it appears that a number of people intimate by there replies that they have something against "A" Frames and get off on the fact that they believe it to be illegal, some of the replies have been intimidating and nasty, all this on a friendly site? I thought this was a debate,not a slagging match. All I can say to the rest of you who like me do "A"frame is, you pays your money and take your chance, until I am pulled over and told to unhook, fined, or otherwise, I will be towing my Matiz behind me whenever I feel the need. If its so illegal, I have not seen any evidence of fines or prosecution for the use of one yet, If the police believe it to be a "grey" area, then I for one will be taking advantage of it.


 :hello1:

I would just like to add, that I have towed a Smart and a Matiz (seperately :lol: ) for over 10,000 over Uk and most of Europe with no problem

Apart from

The Mont Blanc Tunnel

Mentioned on an earlier post here A frame in Germany


----------



## Noel

*Re: Current Position of A frames*



Bessie560 said:


> Hi
> Thinking of towing a Smart car behing Bessacarr E560 home and abroad. Assured by fitters at NEC that if it's legal here, it is abroad, quoting some Vienna convention
> Any body got a similar setup?
> Any probs?
> What is the effect on MPG?
> Can you get in on the tunnel trains? Or ferries?
> Is the cost prohibitive for channel crossings?
> Is the A frame cost of about £900 fitted about right?
> Thanks
> Barry


Don't forget you can get a "real" car for less than the price of a Smart! My Daihatsu Charade is a full 5-door and only 740 KG Unladen 1200 KG Gross
£35 car tax, up to 68 mpg. Towed many 1000's of miles all over UK and in France, Belguim, Holland and Germany with absolutely no problems.

Noel.


----------



## Rio

Hi A bar users, I am new to mhf and only 14 mths of happy motorhoming, Ihave already gained some benefit from the real peoples experience, on this site, so ifeel obliged to share my views on the debate , based on 25 years of towing other peoples cars with A bars.
I do think it is a wonderfully simple and effective device, however the world and rules are changing and so are the cars.
So there are now issues that must be considered.
1, More manual gearboxes are pump lubricated only with the engine running, and almost all a auto and tiptronic types are speed and distance limited usually very short for tow to safety only ,for example smart car, 30 miles at 30 mph max.
Please check the manufacturers info , or contact AA or RAC they do have a database on most cars,
2,the A bar was designed as a recovery device for towing broken down vehicles ,if the vehicle is not broken down recovery insurance doesnt cover this use ,non commercial use is a grey area check with your insurance co for their policy,
you are not towing just a trailer,a caravan is a trailer and a trailer is a trailer , an A frame is not !its a recovery device.
3Bull bars were frowned upon some time ago as they werent pedestrian friendly ,so brackets fitted on or behind the bumper could , cause liability / injury in an accident.
Just look around and note how many recovery companies are using A bars which are by far the cheapest way of towing ,they are all phasing them out.
In the meantime take care ,


----------



## peedee

Thanks Rio, but I think you will find these issues have also been around for sometime and have been hammered to death in previous correspondence on this and other forums. Still it is as well to highlight them again. The subject has been pretty quiet but towing is becoming more popular and there are still folk who need to be aware of these issues.

peedee


----------



## Noel

Rio said:


> Hi A bar users, I am new to mhf and only 14 mths of happy motorhoming, Ihave already gained some benefit from the real peoples experience, on this site, so ifeel obliged to share my views on the debate , based on 25 years of towing other peoples cars with A bars.
> I do think it is a wonderfully simple and effective device, however the world and rules are changing and so are the cars.
> So there are now issues that must be considered.
> 1, More manual gearboxes are pump lubricated only with the engine running, and almost all a auto and tiptronic types are speed and distance limited usually very short for tow to safety only ,for example smart car, 30 miles at 30 mph max.
> Please check the manufacturers info , or contact AA or RAC they do have a database on most cars,
> 2,the A bar was designed as a recovery device for towing broken down vehicles ,if the vehicle is not broken down recovery insurance doesnt cover this use ,non commercial use is a grey area check with your insurance co for their policy,
> you are not towing just a trailer,a caravan is a trailer and a trailer is a trailer , an A frame is not !its a recovery device.
> 3Bull bars were frowned upon some time ago as they werent pedestrian friendly ,so brackets fitted on or behind the bumper could , cause liability / injury in an accident.
> Just look around and note how many recovery companies are using A bars which are by far the cheapest way of towing ,they are all phasing them out.
> In the meantime take care ,


This has little to do with the way we MH users tow cars. We know that universal A-frame dollys are only permitted for the recovery of vehicles, are subject to speed limits etc. etc. and are NOT for general towing use.

The a-frames we use are designed to be connected to cars *permanently and specifically modified *to accept them, when the car becomes a trailer and as long as trailer law regarding braking, lighting, gross weight, train weight, etc. is met then it is as legal as any other vehicle/trailer combination when they take to the road on a case by case basis, until proved different by a court (at least under UK law).

Regards,

Noel.


----------



## RAH

Hey members! How is this issue shaping up today? We plan on towing our Jeep Grand Cherokee on a Blue Ox tow set-up soon: 7-pin lights and brakes.

Our car hauler is still with us, but we are not using it and the Ultima GTR is sitting in a garage during the winter. Then we have only a few months before we return to the States again.

A-frame: go/no-go/or still gray?


----------



## bozzer

*Towing on an A frame*

We've towed in Britain and Europe over the last 2 years.
Only problem has been in Spain. First year stopped and told to separate the van/car. My wife had to drive the car and we were checked by another Police car 30 miles down the road. Hooked up the next day as we were in a different department - no problems and passed police cars. 
This year on the motorway leaving Seville flagged down the slip road by Police. They checked the information given by Towtal and commented on poor translation! Told towing on A frame was not allowed in Spain but then told by policeman "he didn't want to separate me from my wife' but put it on a trailer next time.
We've never been fined and they have never asked for documentation.


----------



## mauriceheather1

*towing on a aframe*

Hi Go to. tow a car. webb site


----------



## peedee

*Re: Towing on an A frame*



bozzer said:


> We've towed in Britain and Europe over the last 2 years.
> Only problem has been in Spain. First year stopped and told to separate the van/car. My wife had to drive the car and we were checked by another Police car 30 miles down the road. Hooked up the next day as we were in a different department - no problems and passed police cars.
> This year on the motorway leaving Seville flagged down the slip road by Police. They checked the information given by Towtal and commented on poor translation! Told towing on A frame was not allowed in Spain but then told by policeman "he didn't want to separate me from my wife' but put it on a trailer next time.
> We've never been fined and they have never asked for documentation.


This is what has always worried me. I have been towing for nearly 9 years but never on the continent. My better half cannot drive the tow car, if the above happened to me I would be stuffed. I know many have no problems at all but given that it is far easier to park over there I don't take the risk.

peedee


----------



## mauriceheather1

*towing on a aframe*

sorry. thats car-a- tow webb site. click on legals, then on downloads.and print it off and take it with you. 
I started towing with a a frame in 1969 with a 7.5 ton truck with a landrover on the back and one behind on the a frame all over uk and europe never had a problem, however did have problems when i was inporting track atv!s from france with the truck and trailer,the police allways asking for the trailer regerstration, so went back to a frame which in those days was unbraked. i will be off to portugal towing again in feb. cheers maurice


----------



## bozzer

*Towing with an A frame*

Thanks Maurice,

We have the download both in English and Spanish but the Police said there was no authority stamp on the document and the Spanish was a poor translation!! The first year we were stopped they wouldn't even look at the information and were adamant we separated.
We have the Brake buddy system for braking. It has put my wife off towing abroad but we use the system in the UK. However the new franchise Towtal have in France is looking good for the A frame.
Bozzer


----------



## frenchfancy

i can't believe there is still all this can i can't i tow on an a frame. We have been doing it for 3years now, and have just got home from France after 11 weeks, no problems. Never been stopped by the police here or in France. All we have added is a number plate board in the back window, which says long vehicle. It may become illegal, but who is to say, in the meantime carry on.By the way Chris Cox is the ace A framer.


----------



## richardjames

Chris Cox's system does not just rely on connecting to the front but has two bars going further down the frame thus spreading the load - I've had towtal and Chris Cox


----------



## frenchfancy

I went for Chris Cox because,we have a Punto and Towtal said i needed a light board, no light board with Chris Cox, appparently Punto is a more difficult car to sort out electrically


----------



## teemyob

*Re: Towing with an A frame*



bozzer said:


> Thanks Maurice,
> 
> We have the download both in English and Spanish but the Police said there was no authority stamp on the document and the Spanish was a poor translation!! The first year we were stopped they wouldn't even look at the information and were adamant we separated.
> We have the Brake buddy system for braking. It has put my wife off towing abroad but we use the system in the UK. However the new franchise Towtal have in France is looking good for the A frame.
> Bozzer


And the Spanish Authorities are strapped for cash, so you are lucky they did not fine you.


----------



## Blodger

*Some handy links*

Take a look at these links - interesting...

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/factsheetaframes.pdf
http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml
http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/articles/view.asp?id=18


----------



## Noel

*Re: Some handy links*



Blodger said:


> Take a look at these links - interesting...
> 
> http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/factsheetaframes.pdf
> http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml
> http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/articles/view.asp?id=18


First two links are covered here and final link is old NTTA propaganda (you don't get turkeys voting for Christmas!)


----------



## Mrplodd

There is *no* doubt about it, the towing of cars on "A" frames is not legal.

Having been a Traffic Cop for many many years I do know what I am talking about.

The problem is that the brakes on the trailer (thats what the car becomes when it is hitched up) do NOT disengage automatically when the towing vehicle reverses, (like they do on caravans) and that is a legal requirement on all trailers (dont forget thats what your car is when it is hitched up, its the legal definition that is relevant, a car on an "A" frame is, by legal definition a trailer NOT a car) there is NO WAY you can modify the brakes on a car to do what is required!!

The LAW is very clear on this, and it is the same all across the EU However it is not that heavily enforced. (but it is still a distinct possibility, you might even meet a man from VOSA in this country, he WILL book you)

If you choose to go down that route you need to be fully aware that you are, without any doubt at all, actually breaking the law, if you get stopped and booked then its down to you and no-one else.

You pay your money and take your chance.

If you are thinking of getting an "A" frame ask the supplier to confirm IN WRITING that the use of such a device is fully legal in the UK. If you do not get that in writing it should tell you all you need to know!!


----------



## frenchfancy

We have been towing on an A frame for 5 years, with no problems in Europe or should i say France. We have the reflective triangles on the car boot, a red and silver triangle in the back window of the car also a plate that says ON TOW. It is a braked A frame from Chris Cox, and until this grey area becomes law or black and white, we will contineue to tow. French Police have only stopped us to video or take pictures of our towcar in situ


----------



## Noel

Mrplodd said:


> There is *no* doubt about it, the towing of cars on "A" frames is not legal.
> 
> Having been a Traffic Cop for many many years I do know what I am talking about.
> 
> The problem is that the brakes on the trailer (thats what the car becomes when it is hitched up) do NOT disengage automatically when the towing vehicle reverses, (like they do on caravans) and that is a legal requirement on all trailers (dont forget thats what your car is when it is hitched up, its the legal definition that is relevant, a car on an "A" frame is, by legal definition a trailer NOT a car) there is NO WAY you can modify the brakes on a car to do what is required!!
> 
> The LAW is very clear on this, and it is the same all across the EU However it is not that heavily enforced. (but it is still a distinct possibility, you might even meet a man from VOSA in this country, he WILL book you)
> 
> If you choose to go down that route you need to be fully aware that you are, without any doubt at all, actually breaking the law, if you get stopped and booked then its down to you and no-one else.
> 
> You pay your money and take your chance.
> 
> If you are thinking of getting an "A" frame ask the supplier to confirm IN WRITING that the use of such a device is fully legal in the UK. If you do not get that in writing it should tell you all you need to know!!


Fitting of "auto-reverse" brakes is how the Caravan/trailer manufacturer's get their locked-on brakes to disengage to reverse. The regulations/EEC directive do NOT call for this (and I bet you cannot quote one)! After forward braking has finished your car brakes will not be engaged and if the combination is correctly adjusted reversing without manual intervention is possible.

Your certainty that A-framing is not legal is manifestly incorrect. 
We have other police on here who tow and would argue that, depending on your setup, it can meet trailer legal braking and lighting requirements. A-frame legalities


----------



## erneboy

I am not sure whether towing on an a frame is legal or not having read links on another post but I am sure that you cannot tow anything weighing over 750kg unless you have done an additional test or you are still the holder of an old style licence. If you have renewed your licence you are now restricted to a maximum of 750kg, Alan.


----------



## Chascass

After reading every bit of opinion I have come across regarding Braked A-frames I came to the conclusion long ago that what Noel has said is correct.

And yes, Manufacturers of these frames will put their names to the opinion that they are legal.

Charlie


----------



## raynipper

Just an observation as I haven't read all posts and it may have been mentioned.....

Surely towing with a 'Brake-Buddy' which personally I'm not a fan of, would not engage the toads brakes when reversing.

Then this might be within the regs Mr.Plod is referring to. Right or wrong.

I have towed a car for 20 years in UK and France. The only times I have been stopped 'plod' just admired the set up.

Ray.


----------



## erneboy

Noel may be correct, what about the weight limit, Alan.


----------



## Chascass

Alan, the only weight limits I have read concerning a trailer is the fact that any trailer over 750 kg must have brakes fitted, and if the trailer is under 750 kg and has brakes fitted they must still be in working order.

I have never read anything relating to a additional test if not in possession of the old style licence.

Charlie


----------



## Mrplodd

Unless the brakes of the trailer become inoperative when the vehicle is reversed without any intervention then an ofence is commited.

I would be interested in an explanation as to how this can be acheived on a braked "A" frame (one fitted with over-run braking system which activates the brakes of the towed vehicle which is the norm, not an electrical system which is a very expensive system and which IS almost certainly legal) when the towing vehicle and the "trailer" stop whilst going downhill.

The weight of the "trailer" pushes forward onto the over-run braking system and applies the brakes which then remain on due to the weight of the trailer pushing downhill. Just how do you then get them to release in order to reverse without any human intervention???

On a caravan the brake shoes are fitted on a cam which, when rotated the "wrong" way when the trailer goeas backwards, moves the brake shoes out of contact with the drums thus complying with the regulations. When the wheels rotate the "correct" way the cam rotates back and the brakes operate as they should.

If it is not a requirement to fit such a system please explain why every single caravan IS fitted with exactly that system??

Do you think for an instant that caravan makers (all of them, both UK & EU) would spend money fitting such an expensive system if it was not a legal requirement.?

I have spent many years dealing with such matters I am sure if I had been mistaken someone would have proved me wrong in a court of law!!

There have been cases reported on here of people being fined whilst abroad, have any of them had the conviction overturned, or fine cancelled on appeal ??

I would still like to see written confirmation from the maker that their over-run braking system on an "A" frame complies with that requirement!!

If there are any such suppliers on this forum perhaps they would care to make such a statement?? has ANYONE got such written undertaking if so please post it here.


----------



## raynipper

MrPlod says>>> There have been cases reported on here of people being fined whilst abroad, have any of them had the conviction overturned, or fine cancelled on appeal ?? >>>>

Car-A-Tow did in fact have documented evidence of just this event on their website a while ago. Not sure if it's still there but I'm sure I have a copy somewhere.

Someone fined in Spain for towing a car on an 'A' frame did in fact have the fine squashed and he was reimbursed after Brussels got involved.

Found it..!! http://www.caratow.com/docs/dismissal.pdf
Ray.


----------



## erneboy

When on tow it should be viewed as a trailer. If over 750kg unrestricted C1+E would be required but the case was not concerned with that aspect it seems, Alan,


----------



## peedee

So if a car on a tow rope is a trailer why isn't one on a frame Mr Plod?

peedee


----------



## Noel

Mrplodd said:


> Unless the brakes of the trailer become inoperative when the vehicle is reversed without any intervention then an ofence is commited.
> 
> I would be interested in an explanation as to how this can be acheived on a braked "A" frame (one fitted with over-run braking system which activates the brakes of the towed vehicle which is the norm, not an electrical system which is a very expensive system and which IS almost certainly legal) when the towing vehicle and the "trailer" stop whilst going downhill.
> 
> The weight of the "trailer" pushes forward onto the over-run braking system and applies the brakes which then remain on due to the weight of the trailer pushing downhill. Just how do you then get them to release in order to reverse without any human intervention???
> 
> On a caravan the brake shoes are fitted on a cam which, when rotated the "wrong" way when the trailer goeas backwards, moves the brake shoes out of contact with the drums thus complying with the regulations. When the wheels rotate the "correct" way the cam rotates back and the brakes operate as they should.
> 
> If it is not a requirement to fit such a system please explain why every single caravan IS fitted with exactly that system??
> 
> Do you think for an instant that caravan makers (all of them, both UK & EU) would spend money fitting such an expensive system if it was not a legal requirement.?
> 
> I have spent many years dealing with such matters I am sure if I had been mistaken someone would have proved me wrong in a court of law!!
> 
> There have been cases reported on here of people being fined whilst abroad, have any of them had the conviction overturned, or fine cancelled on appeal ??
> 
> I would still like to see written confirmation from the maker that their over-run braking system on an "A" frame complies with that requirement!!
> 
> If there are any such suppliers on this forum perhaps they would care to make such a statement?? has ANYONE got such written undertaking if so please post it here.


Because, in practice, if properly set-up and adjusted to take into account that, unlike a car/caravan/trailer; with a M/H/trailer(car) the M/H is by far the heavier vehicle relative to the trailer(car) and the trailer(car) only needs to assist the combined braking by up to 50%.

If you adjust the operating cable to only pull on the brakes during over-run and utilizing the considerable momentum generated by any significant forward motion; then you are unlikely to pull on the brakes after a stop on a hill. If the brakes are on, you merely move forward the approx 3 - 6 inches to take them off and then reverse, the over-run /relative weight of the car will _not_ pull them on again, i.e. you are moving slowly, pushing a light weight and no momentum.

Believe me I have tried it and on my combination it works, so; I am satisfied that on each and every occasion that *I* take to the road and after the proper set-up and adjustments I'm legal.

As I said, a-framers require more technical knowledge, care and user input than a standard trailer tower and I accept that the most cavalier or dim may be illegal on occasion but that does not make us all illegal by virtue of the fact we tow cars on a-frames.

You will never get written confirmation/c of c's from manufacturers because the _application_ of the product is out of thier hands and requires instruction and some sense from thier customers/users.

That applies to other trailer towers and to a lesser extent, every other road user also for that matter but our vehicles are dual purpose and do require more technical application.

Caravan manufacturers fit auto-reverse brakes to achieve what the regulations want i.e. reversing "without any intervention" for a single purpose trailer and to make the product "fool proof" for thier customers, something we can't have!


----------



## erneboy

Noel, is your "trailer" over 750kg and does your licence allow to tow a trailer which exceeds that weight. 

My interest in this is genuine because I was cautioned by Traffic Police for this offence following a stop at a roadside vehicle check, Alan.


----------



## Noel

erneboy said:


> Noel, is your "trailer" over 750kg and does your licence allow to tow a trailer which exceeds that weight.
> 
> My interest in this is genuine because I was cautioned by Traffic Police for this offence following a stop at a roadside vehicle check, Alan.


As I passed my test prior to 1997 (1963) yes, and yes! See here


----------



## erneboy

Thanks Noel. From that page "All drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 retain their existing entitlement to tow trailers until their licence expires."

So you have not renewed your licence and retain unrestricted C1+E for that reason. I changed address so renewed mine and had the restriction added, I challenged the change but to no avail, Alan.


----------



## pete4x4

Then you need to challenge again as I have changed address twice and still retain the right, my licence does not expire until 2027.


----------



## Noel

erneboy said:


> Thanks Noel. From that page "All drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 retain their existing entitlement to tow trailers until their licence expires."
> 
> So you have not renewed your licence and retain unrestricted C1+E for that reason. I changed address so renewed mine and had the restriction added, I challenged the change but to no avail, Alan.


There have been loads of cases where on licence renewal people have wrongly lost entitlements due to those bozos at DVLA, even a police motorcyclist lost his motorcycle entitlement and was asked for proof he had passed his test! DON'T send any licence to DVLA without photo copying the old one and send it by registered post or they will claim "lost"

By the way you should not lose entitlement on renewal at 70

YOUR DRIVING ENTITLEMENT ON RENEWING AT THE AGE OF 70

On reaching the age of 70, drivers will retain their driving entitlement for Category B and Category B+E (provided Category B+E was held prior to the expiry date of their driving licence).

Category B+E entitles drivers to drive a motor vehicle (ie car, van or 4x4) not exceeding 3.5 tonnes Maximum Authorised Mass* (MAM), drawing/towing any weight trailer/caravan within the prescribed maximum towing weight. The maximum towing weight will be specified in the technical data section of the vehicle manufacturer's handbook.

See here


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## erneboy

erneboy said:


> Thanks Noel. From that page "All drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 retain their existing entitlement to tow trailers until their licence expires."
> 
> So you have not renewed your licence and retain unrestricted C1+E for that reason. I changed address so renewed mine and had the restriction added, I challenged the change but to no avail, Alan.


"I changed address so renewed mine and had the restriction added, I challenged the change but to no avail".

It was a back door move to harmonise with other EU countries. I did challenge it but they were not interested, so anyone renewing their licence because of a change of address, to have points removed, because they cannot find their old one or for any other reason will loose the entitelement regardless of age or when they passed the test. This is detailed in the first link you posted for me, Alan.


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## DJP

I assume you all realise the original post by Rob and Di was 3 years ago!


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## erneboy

Thanks DJP. Yes I knew, all the more reason to discuss the issue as it remains uncertain, Alan.


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## DJP

It has been uncertain for a great number of years. We have been unconvinced of it's legality/illegality for close on 5 years of towing with A frame and covering over 10000 miles.
It just needs either someone to be prosecuted (not following any incident hopefully) or the Government to issue some legislation to make the situation clear.
We have a number of police officers on this forum. Have they or any of their colleagues prosecuted anyone for A frame use. If not, why not. Simple question I think :roll: 
You can fined £1000 for putting the wrong rubbish in a bin so why not fine an A framer. We are all easy pickings! Of course, it would have to be illegal in the first place.
I therefore rest my case M'lud.


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## Wizzo

So Erneboy I'm a bit confused here. I read the link and took it to mean that you lose your entitlement when your licence expires i.e. the age of 70 but am I right in saying that you believe that I will lose my entitlement when I renew my licence purely for a change of address?

I have changed address about 5 years ago and I have C1E on my licence with code 107 which indicates to me that I have retained my 'grandfathers rights' to tow a trailer of more than 750kg. Are you saying this will not continue next time?

JohnW


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## peedee

Before I started A-Framing nearly 10 years ago (there were very few A-Frames about then), I spoke to a number of people about the legality of it, one was a traffic policeman. No one could give me a clear answer but what final convinced me to go ahead was the comments from the traffic policeman who, whilst acknowledging the law was very complex, said he would not stop me on the grounds that if he couldn't bring a case against some one using a tow rope which after all makes the car a trailer, he did not think there was a case against the use of an A-Frame.

True dit

peedee

ps in Spain its illegal to use a towrope.


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## zappy61

Mrplodd said:


> Unless the brakes of the trailer become inoperative when the vehicle is reversed without any intervention then an ofence is commited.
> 
> I would be interested in an explanation as to how this can be acheived on a braked "A" frame (one fitted with over-run braking system which activates the brakes of the towed vehicle which is the norm, not an electrical system which is a very expensive system and which IS almost certainly legal) when the towing vehicle and the "trailer" stop whilst going downhill.
> 
> The weight of the "trailer" pushes forward onto the over-run braking system and applies the brakes which then remain on due to the weight of the trailer pushing downhill. Just how do you then get them to release in order to reverse without any human intervention???
> 
> On a caravan the brake shoes are fitted on a cam which, when rotated the "wrong" way when the trailer goeas backwards, moves the brake shoes out of contact with the drums thus complying with the regulations. When the wheels rotate the "correct" way the cam rotates back and the brakes operate as they should.
> 
> If it is not a requirement to fit such a system please explain why every single caravan IS fitted with exactly that system??
> 
> Do you think for an instant that caravan makers (all of them, both UK & EU) would spend money fitting such an expensive system if it was not a legal requirement.?
> 
> I have spent many years dealing with such matters I am sure if I had been mistaken someone would have proved me wrong in a court of law!!
> 
> There have been cases reported on here of people being fined whilst abroad, have any of them had the conviction overturned, or fine cancelled on appeal ??
> 
> I would still like to see written confirmation from the maker that their over-run braking system on an "A" frame complies with that requirement!!
> 
> If there are any such suppliers on this forum perhaps they would care to make such a statement?? has ANYONE got such written undertaking if so please post it here.


With a BrakeBuddy system the brakes are inoperative when the vehicle is reversing. 
Graham


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## erneboy

John, Code 107 is a confirmation of the restriction, not a confirmation that you have "grandfather rights".

Please look at note 2 in the introduction of this document.

This was a rotten stealthy trick, Alan.


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## pete4x4

107 is a restriction to 8250kg gross weight, see dvla site on licence codes "Goods vehicle with MAM between 3,500 and 7,500 kg and pulling a trailer, as long as the total weight of both vehicles is not more than 8,250 kg"


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## erneboy

Pete is correct, it is a restriction specifically on the weight of a trailer which is how a car on an a frame is viewed. It makes the maximum weight you can tow 750kg. The 8250kg figure may mislead some, 8250 is the max train weight but within that the maximum the trailer can be is 750kg, Alan.


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## pete4x4

No that is incorrect, I've just edited my post to add what the dvla site says and it quotes Gross train weight upto 8250kg, it says nothing about 750kg trailers that is just your misguided view.

4tonne motorhome + 1tonne toad = 5tonne inside permissible weight therefore allowed. 
End of story, there is nothing else.


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## erneboy

Pete please read the pdf I posted above. If after reading that you still think I am wrong fair enough, Alan.


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## pete4x4

In fact Alan what you are quoting is category C, the old C1 had no trailer limit.
The E bit of C+E entitles you to pull a trailer over 750kgs, that is what it says!

The old system of C1+E details a GTW, you are trying to apply the regulations/codes as if you had passed a test after 97, there is a subtle difference between the two when you compare them side by side.


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## pete4x4

Yep note 2 totally contradicts what you have said and completely agrees with me.
I cannot see how you see it any differently, it even says you can drive a minibus with a trailer greater than 750kgs.
"You are also entitled to drive a minibus with a trailer weighing more than 750kg."

I don't get what you see.


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## raynipper

erneboy said:


> Pete please read the pdf I posted above. If after reading that you still think I am wrong fair enough, Alan.


Hello Alan.
If I read the regs right at age 70 I will have to undergo not only a medical but the theory and practical tests to retain the C1 + E license.

As it happens I have the old Class 1 all HGV groups. But this new rule would make me try for the test again. Is this right?

Ray.


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## erneboy

I see what you are saying Pete and would prefer to agree with you but I have been cautioned for this by Traffic Police, it is not impossible to believe that they were wrong, but googling code 107 also produces many answers saying what I am saying. 

It really should be a lot clearer. I will go back to Google, unpersuaded, Alan.


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## val33

Alan, I have to agree with Pete.

C+E and C1+E details on this page http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022547

And code 107 on this page http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_10022623

Val


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## val33

There is also this, detailing the old classes for licenses past before 1997

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_180694

Val


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## val33

I think I can see where your confusion is. 

The entitlement C+E allows you to drive a vehicle up to 7500kg and a trailer (not exceeding the unladen weight of the towing vehicle) .

Code 107 limits the total weight of the vehicle and trailer to 8250kg, so IF you were driving a vehicle weighing 7500kg the the max trailer weight would be 750kg (total of 8250kg). However, if the vehicle only weighs 6000kg then the trailer could weigh up to 2250kg.

Val


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## erneboy

Thanks all. I must admit I have been looking at this till I am cross eyed however I think that while the Traffic Cop who cautioned me was correct overall his explanation was not correct. The problem was that the MAM of my vehicle was 7.5 tons, therefore the trailer could only be 750 kg giving a total of 8250kg. He told me the the restricted C1+E limited the trailer weight to 750kg which I now see is wrong. 

Thank you for your help with it, Alan.


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## javea

I have been following this thread with interest and would appreciate advice from you chaps who are obviously well conversed in these regulations.

On my current licence I have groups A, B, BE, B1, C1, C1E, D1, D1E.

When I reach 70 next year I know that I will have to complete the medical formalities, but will I have to take a test to enable me to continue to tow a car on an A frame?


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## erneboy

Lets see if I understand correctly. 

No, just take a medical and your train weight can still be up to 8250kg, I hope, Alan.


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## val33

Correct. My understanding is that you WILL retain the right to C1+E provided you ask for it and complete a medical.

You will not get it if you do not specifically ask for it.

Val


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## javea

Thanks Alan and Val.

I will make sure I ask for it - don't want to be taking a test!!

Mike


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## raynipper

javea03730 said:


> Thanks Alan and Val.
> I will make sure I ask for it - don't want to be taking a test!!Mike


Taking the test again would not be too bad if it wasn't so damn expensive.

Ray.


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## lookback

javea03730 said:


> I have been following this thread with interest and would appreciate advice from you chaps who are obviously well conversed in these regulations.
> 
> On my current licence I have groups A, B, BE, B1, C1, C1E, D1, D1E.
> 
> When I reach 70 next year I know that I will have to complete the medical formalities, but will I have to take a test to enable me to continue to tow a car on an A frame?


I am 70 in Nov this year. Just had an e.mail back from DVLA who say:
"At the age of 70 if you do not apply to retain the heavier categories your licence will show the following categories.

B =motor cars or light vans up to 3.5 tonnes with up to 8 passenger seats.

B+E = motor cars and light vans up to 3.5 tonnes pulling a trailer over 750kgs.

Therefore provided the motorhome and vehicle you intend to tow fall within the above category your licence will be sufficient."

Hope that clarifies the situation.

Ian


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## javea

Thanks Ian, the only problem I have now is that my motorhome is rated at 3,850 kgs, uprated from 3,500 by SV Tech.

So, can I continue to run at the higher weight or do I need to downgrade again which I don't really want to do.

Mike


Sorry, just had a senior moment and realised that you are saying that indeed I do need to apply for the higher entitlement otherwise I will lose it.


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## Wizzo

Thanks Pete 4x4 and Val 33 you have confirmed what I thought. Whilst I am limited to 8,250kg train weight I am not limited to a 750kg trailer.

JohnW


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## javea

Just answered my own question by looking on the DVLA site - mustn't be so lazy in future!

If you passed your car driving test before 1 January 1997 you would have been given the implied entitlements for vehicle categories C1 (medium sized vehicle that weighs between 3500kg and 7500kg) and D1 (to drive a minibus but not as part of carrying passengers).

If you still require any of these entitlements you won’t be able to make an online application. You must make an application using your D46P renewal form or a D2 application form accompanied by a D4 medical report, which must be filled in by a doctor.

However, if you no longer want these entitlements you can continue to apply online just to renew your car entitlement.


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## pete4x4

Alan, 
I now understand! up to now in all the threads you have never mentioned your MAM was 7.5tonnes, the cop would have been right you would only have been able to tow 750kgs.

Glad we sorted that one out :lol:


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## zappy61

*A Frame*

This is a useful Link which explains driving licence entitlements before and after changes to legislation. After following this thread I had to read mine again, but as I passed my test in 1959 I am ok (to drive up to Goods vehicle with MAM between 3,500 and 7,500 kg and pulling a trailer, as long as the total weight of both vehicles is not more than 8,250 kg(licence says A,E****)) as long as I claim my grandfather rights when I am 70 (next year).

Graham


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## raynipper

Isn't it amazing we now have to have an explanatory document many pages long just to indicate what we can and can't drive.

I received a pamphlet with my original HGV license back in the 70s comprising of 10 lines.

Such is 'progress'.

Ray.


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