# Smart Meters only benefit Linky.



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I have yet to find or hear from anyone who has actually got any benefits from having a smart meter.
Often they are installed in places you are hardly likely to sit and watch it. Plus after the first five minutes the novelty wears off.

Yes the supply company saves money on meter readers but the Linky company must be making billions and landfill with millions of old analogue meters.

Ray.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

raynipper said:


> I have yet to find or hear from anyone who has actually got any benefits from having a smart meter.
> Often they are installed in places you are hardly likely to sit and watch it. Plus after the first five minutes the novelty wears off.
> 
> Yes the supply company saves money on meter readers but the Linky company must be making billions and landfill with millions of old analogue meters.
> ...


Having spent too many years in metering services, they will help in the long run as a wise old guy I worked with once said, "they'll only become relevant when electricity becomes really really really expensive." (It hasn't got there yet)
The more up to date smarts come with a stand alone visual device to keep in a handy location.

At the minute it's a con and don't forget it's the consumer that ultimately pays the cost of the new metering and fitting, with a meter costing about £50-60. A simple single rate analogue meter costs a network company approx £6-7. 
We scrapped thousands of pounds worth of meter re-certification equipment as it was cheaper to buy in a new one @£6. 
The saving of meter reading costs is a red herring, the biggest elements of bills by far are the generating costs, network costs and suppliers costs. I've managed both meter reading, supplier billing and network elements and followed costs very closely.

The ultimate goal in smart metering is for them to independently switch you to the cheapest suppliers deal, year on year or even month to month. Just imagine the carnage that could cause. 
The other less published functionality is the potential option to remotely disconnect your supply. Whilst keypad/token meters allow self disconnection, the smart meter enables a supplier 2way coms to the meter to switch you off.:surprise:

Terry


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes Terry, I feel they are being 'pushed' a little too hard to benefit the client at all.
My fear at the moment is any service or utility we have changed in France has usually caused us days or weeks of anguish trying to get the service back up and running. 5 weeks for the internet one time and always an increase in tariff. I dread losing our electric tariff as it suits our lifestyle.

Ray.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

raynipper said:


> Yes Terry, I feel they are being 'pushed' a little too hard to benefit the client at all.
> My fear at the moment is any service or utility we have changed in France has usually caused us days or weeks of anguish trying to get the service back up and running. 5 weeks for the internet one time and always an increase in tariff. I dread losing our electric tariff as it suits our lifestyle.
> 
> Ray.


In fairness the U.K. is quite heavily regulated with tight codes of practice relating to things like meter reading, being off supplier, new connections, lack of response to a complaint by a supplier or network operator.
The electricity market opening in GB really fragmented the industry in the name of competition with many suppliers, network companies and data collection companies occupying the same space one company used to. Often the issues now arise through poor communication between then all.
I've seen GB suppliers being threatened with removal of their license and/or being heavily fined for poor customer service.
It was often said, tongue in cheek, that it was a great business except for the bl00dy customers. (We in NI were formerly told not to call them consumers)

I could write a book but I'd have to change quite a few names, both staff and customers. Like one customer who was each quarter in trouble for non payment of their bill, only to see them make the front page of a West Belfast newspaper for a very rather excessive front garden Xmas light display. :surprise:

Terry


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Years ago we borrowed a smart meter from the local library. You could watch it record the usage as various appliances were switched on. It did its job in a couple of days and we discovered, quite quickly, how greedy the kettle was. It went back to the library to be "recycled" into another home where they could discover the same thing. 

How green is that? One meter that did the job of thousands of the "fitted" variety. When this smart meter scheme was rolled out I shouted as loud as I could that it was a scam but no one was listening


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

It's hardly surprising Pat that a 2,400 watt kettle will take more power than any non heating appliance. But it's only on for 5 mins. Unlike the 3kw immersion hear or 3kw space heaters.
Surely it's so simple to know heat costs more money than other electrical appliances. Why do we need an expensive meter to show this.? 

Ray.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

raynipper said:


> It's hardly surprising Pat that a 2,400 watt kettle will take more power than any non heating appliance. But it's only on for 5 mins. Unlike the 3kw immersion hear or 3kw space heaters.
> Surely it's so simple to know heat costs more money than other electrical appliances. Why do we need an expensive meter to show this.?
> 
> Ray.


Here's one reason that might make them handy for those in power. (Yes I know excuse the pun)

Take the current example of Texas with large areas blacked due to lack of generating capacity due to under investment in standby reserve generation, something the U.K. is heading towards.

If a network had the capacity via smart meter communications to turn large volumes of premises off in rotation for several hours at a time they could minimise the current widespread destruction long uncontrolled power cuts cause.

Another reason to not p1ss off our European neighbours who currently top us up with lecky.

Terry


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes Terry. If only the 'powers' that be could be honest about it though. All this twaddle telling everyone they can save money by watching how much appliances use.
The US has long known it's power system is fragile and operating close to breakdown all year round in part due to being 110v and their power hungry air con.
Plus now electric cars are being promoted it's only going to compound their problems.

Ray.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

raynipper said:


> It's hardly surprising Pat that a 2,400 watt kettle will take more power than any non heating appliance. But it's only on for 5 mins. Unlike the 3kw immersion hear or 3kw space heaters.
> Surely it's so simple to know heat costs more money than other electrical appliances. Why do we need an expensive meter to show this.?
> 
> Ray.


It's not surprising Ray but there's nothing like the visual or practical experience to make a human think better.

I was involved in the rollout trial of a new keypad prepayment electric meter to NI, the habits of the 200 hundred in the trial was later reflected in the widespread installation of 200k+ such meters. Some forced for bad debt reasons but the majority were requested as word of mouth recommendations spread.

Previous normal rates of consumption were reduced simply by the customer physically having to purchase a 20 digit vend code that was then punched by them into the meter. On the realisation that, "jeez that twenty quid didn't last long" etc it helped focus the minds on usage.

Terry


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Reminds me of when we had a pre payment meter as a child. It was a personal vendetta by my dad to not put any more money in it. We could not have the one bar wall mounted electric fire on in the bathroom before we took a bath. "Just duck under the water" he would say, "you'll soon get warm"!


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## Matchlock (Jun 26, 2010)

dghr272 said:


> Here's one reason that might make them handy for those in power. (Yes I know excuse the pun)
> 
> Take the current example of Texas with large areas blacked due to lack of generating capacity due to under investment in standby reserve generation, something the U.K. is heading towards.
> 
> ...


These European connectors are bi directional, at this moment we are taking energy from the French, Dutch and Belgium inter-connectors but feeding GB energy to NI and Eire, they change daily depending on energy needs.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Thinking of the poor people in Texas reminds of what goes on in the Northern states of the US. Many, many of them up sticks and fly south, known as "Snow Birds" in the winter. They leave their houses and apartments with the heating going full blast! In the summer they have hot dry weather but never put washing out to dry. They put it in the dryer! I remonstrated with my brother but he said that his neighbours would not be happy if he hung washing out because it is frowned upon in middle class areas! He has air con in his house and in his garage. The garage is also heated! Crazy people.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes Pat but their chickens are coming home as power costs are escalating in all states. 
Their RVs never had double glazing until about 2000. When I asked why not I usually got just turn the furnace up. Most RVs have two furnaces and two air con units. 50a power points are not uncommon.

Ray.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Yup! Then there are there gas guzzling cars  They have a morbid fear of taxes and the politicians are terrified of taxing fuel because they will get thrown out at the next election.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Matchlock said:


> These European connectors are bi directional, at this moment we are taking energy from the French, Dutch and Belgium inter-connectors but feeding GB energy to NI and Eire, they change daily depending on energy needs.


Granny and sucking eggs and teaching are words that comes to mind.

Terry


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Just watched a report on BBC about some Texas billing, it appears to be variable individual billing with currently serious uplifts being applied on tariffs as demand increases. Obviously drops when things improve but in a crisis situations you’re stuffed, and in the recent case solely because investing in infrastructure was never a priority, the supplier always wins.

Terry


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes I saw that and realised you are right Terry about the supply company being able to limit supply in times of excess demand. Sneaky. 

My existing tariff kinds does this already as we benefit from cheap electricity all year but suffer a 10x increase on very cold days between Nov. to March. Up to now it's been great as before when it was a holiday home we were never here in winter and recently in Portugal.

Ray.


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## Matchlock (Jun 26, 2010)

dghr272 said:


> Granny and sucking eggs and teaching are words that comes to mind.
> 
> Terry


 I was just stating the facts to your incorrect statement for others that may not know, and you need to brush up on your English, it should be:
*Don't Teach Your Grandmother to Suck Eggs*


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

raynipper said:


> Yes I saw that and realised you are right Terry about the supply company being able to limit supply in times of excess demand. Sneaky.
> 
> My existing tariff kinds does this already as we benefit from cheap electricity all year but suffer a 10x increase on very cold days between Nov. to March. Up to now it's been great as before when it was a holiday home we were never here in winter and recently in Portugal.
> 
> Ray.


Wow x10 would really concentrate the mind and bring out the clothing layers or even the fur coats. :grin2:

We in NI had a SToD tariff (Seasonal Time of Day) for commercial customers with the most expensive unit charge being winter months at peak times of day, generally morning breakfast time and evening dinner time when the unit price tripled.

At the minute in Texas I suspect the system automatically shuts large areas down at substation level to protect itself rather than on an individual household basis.

Terry


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Matchlock said:


> I was just stating the facts to your incorrect statement for others that may not know, and you need to brush up on your English, it should be:
> *Don't Teach Your Grandmother to Suck Eggs*


You'll still find GB is a net importer of energy from Europe the attached link will explain it to you in nice colours.

We do send some the other mid year but take most of the time. So put that in your fact pipe and suck it.

Hope you understand my poor English, the coloured graphs should help just in case.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/data-portal/electricity-generation-mix-quarter-and-fuel-source-gb

Terry


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

dghr272 said:


> If a network had the capacity via smart meter communications to turn large volumes of premises off in rotation for several hours at a time they could minimise the current widespread destruction long uncontrolled power cuts cause.
> 
> Another reason to not p1ss off our European neighbours who currently top us up with lecky.
> 
> Terry





Matchlock said:


> These European connectors are bi directional, at this moment we are taking energy from the French, Dutch and Belgium inter-connectors but feeding GB energy to NI and Eire, they change daily depending on energy needs.


I found both pieces of information interesting, thank you both.

My goodness, the grumpy old men are out in force tonight!


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

jiwawa said:


> dghr272 said:
> 
> 
> > If a network had the capacity via smart meter communications to turn large volumes of premises off in rotation for several hours at a time they could minimise the current widespread destruction long uncontrolled power cuts cause.
> ...


Glad my written English was sufficient for you to understand Jean 😄

Terry


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

jiwawa said:


> I found both pieces of information interesting, thank you both.
> 
> My goodness, the grumpy old men are out in force tonight!


And your countrymen are the worst offenders. :frown2:

It takes real skill to turn a large motorhome forum into a sick joke. Still, as long as they are happy eh? :smile2:


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Come off it Jim, your detracting from my initial question.

Ray.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

747 said:


> *It takes real skill to turn a large motorhome forum into a sick joke.* Still, as long as they are happy eh? :smile2:


There would probably be a large degree of support that the decline of, what used to be, the largeST motorhome forum, required an owner who fiddled extensively, but apparently kept no records of what he had done.

Then all it took was to sell it to an impersonal company that collects forums solely for the number of subscribers recorded so that advertising revenue can be maximised.

Introduce delay after delay and a failure to deliver upgrades that were repeatedly promised, but rarely delivered.

All of those sort of problems coincided with an exponential growth in free FaceBook groups, attracting members in their thousands and the successful growth of an alternative forum that started after a fall out between the previous owner of this site and the very successful owner of the Fun side - he has maintained interest through careful growth coupled with the maintenance of standards that was abandoned on here when Moderators were removed "at a stroke" on the whim of the flawed previous owner.

None of those things should be ignored, this forum is a shadow of its previous self but still attracts new members who fail to be able to register - a comment repeated often.

I know this is {offtopic} Ray, but felt it important to divert criticism however implied, away from the loyal members that remain with this forum.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

raynipper said:


> Come off it Jim, your detracting from my initial question.
> 
> Ray.


More like sh1t stirring again. It's all they have left.

I can't understand how the lurkers only appear to groan, they've won their beloved Brexit you'd think they'd be happy........... oh yeah I forgot it's turned out a mess.:grin2::grin2:

Have you also noticed they hate this place so much but can't resist a wee look, sad or what, only resorting to disruptive interventions.

Terry
.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

I just think it would be good if we could respond to a post as it is, without dragging into it all the ire that has obviously built up in some against particular posters for whatever reason.

If you think they're trolling just don't give them the satisfaction of responding. And allow others to take what they will from the post.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I guess that if old 7 and Barry didn't attack people there'd be no need for an answer.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Matchlock said:


> These European connectors are bi directional, at this moment we are taking energy from the French, Dutch and Belgium inter-connectors but feeding GB energy to NI and Eire, they change daily depending on energy needs.


But there was nothing to attack in that post Alan - that's my point. There's no need to carry all that baggage. No wonder some are so grumpy on here.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I know Jean and I haven't said that there was.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

patp said:


> Reminds me of when we had a pre payment meter as a child. It was a personal vendetta by my dad to not put any more money in it. We could not have the one bar wall mounted electric fire on in the bathroom before we took a bath. "Just duck under the water" he would say, "you'll soon get warm"!


One of the very early pre payment meters we had were 50p slot meters, these had to be emptied as the coins built up, quite a hazardous procedure in parts of Belfast as the collectors were often targeted by the local hoods
Although to be honest that was small beer as the coin mechs on the devices were pretty crude. Some customers twigged that if you froze water in the shape of a 50p it worked to get the meter ticking over. 
Picture the poor sod calling to empty the cash box usually located in the meter cupboard only to find water spilling from the cash box as it was wrestled free, amazing that no one was fried. Naturally all pleaded total ignorance.

Terry


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Was it true about hinging meter boards Terry?


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

dghr272 said:


> Although to be honest that was small beer as the coin mechs on the devices were pretty crude. Some customers twigged that if you froze water in the shape of a 50p it worked to get the meter ticking over.
> Picture the poor sod calling to empty the cash box usually located in the meter cupboard only to find water spilling from the cash box as it was wrestled free, amazing that no one was fried. Naturally all pleaded total ignorance. Terry


Yes, I had tenants who managed to do that and all I found was the coin box went rusty. But others drilled through the wall and connected their flat up to the landlords (me) staircase lighting.

Ray.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

erneboy said:


> Was it true about hinging meter boards Terry?


I had a few years working with RPU revenue protection unit, I've seen it all, boards hinged to fall over therefore stopping the disk from spinning or hinging sideways to access the rear of the meter to hide a bypass, black boxes to stop or reverse a meter, underground splicing to power illegal supplies. Where there's a will there's a way, many crazy attempts leading to backboard fires and even personal injuries.

Terry


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

The electrician who wired our house 35 years ago asked me if I wanted the board on hinges. I had no idea what he was talking about.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Whilst a fair amount of illegal abstraction occurred in NIHE estates or landlord’s HMOs, it may surprise you the volume in well to do areas in houses that gave the appearance of wealth with several cars in the drive.

Terry


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Put the wealthy ones in Jail I say.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

dghr272 said:


> Whilst a fair amount of illegal abstraction occurred in NIHE estates or landlord's HMOs, it may surprise you the volume in well to do areas in houses that gave the appearance of wealth with several cars in the drive.
> 
> Terry


That's how they can afford the cars Terry!


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Out of interest I scratched the surface of the Texas power issues. The electrical grid in Texas was deregulated, privatised, and removed from interconnected networks to avoid federal regulation and increase profits to a small number of wealthy individuals.

I suspect if any of those wealthy individuals actually lived in Texas they probably could afford a UPS system or like Ted Cruz could afford to fly elsewhere.

Terry


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## weldted (May 1, 2005)

We had one fitted at our French holiday cottage last November, EDF got very insistent that we had one as they complained that as were were away for long periods they had to keep estimating our bill. As our insurance requires up to turn off the utilities when we are away for extended periods, I always took a photo of the day and night tarrif with a date stamped picture. When asking for a meter reading which was by email I sent them the photo explaining if we weren’t their that was the reading the day we left? Now they are complaining that they cannot get a reading, I had explained to them that as I have to turn the power off at the master trip there will be not power going to the meter? We have had the cottage 7 1/2 years paid the bill by direct debit and always been in credit. Some progress!!


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yep, brilliant Welted. We also have given them the exact reading every two months despite being away for three months in winter by my estimation. But as you say they are going to do it whether we want one or not.

Ray.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

raynipper said:


> Yep, brilliant Welted. We also have given them the exact reading every two months despite being away for three months in winter by my estimation. But as you say they are going to do it whether we want one or not.
> 
> Ray.


Next will be a visit from the fraud squad as they have suddenly realised you appeared to have stopped your meter from recording (perhaps illegally) in previous years. :wink2::wink2:

------

For really difficult domestic debt customers we ended up getting warrants to force fit prepayment meters.

Terry


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Ha ha, if only Terry. The French seem to have things very securely sealed up. But thats why I'm paranoid about keeping our EJP tariff. It works well for us and I would hate it to get changed. 

Ray.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Seals only keep honest folk out Ray, the scoundrels always find a way.

Terry


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Well the day finally came and I had to allow a couple of EDF bods to come and change a perfectly good mechanical electric meter for a new high tech and life benefiting Linky Smart Meter.

So far I can only see a backward step. I have always been able to see my usage and note the kw used, calculate my expected bill and no surprises.
The new and life enhancing meter you can only see a light blinking faster to see your using more power? Great but not actual usage indicator other than how many KVa at any one time. 
To try and relate that to a bill would need a great deal of calculation. 

So a total con and disappointment imho.

Ray.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

It is not for your benefit Ray. The reason they are installing them is to closely monitor your usage. They will then move you onto a tariff where you are charged by the hour based on your usage. Peak usage hours, early morning and early evening for the workers, will be charged at the higher rate while the hours of nine to five and midnight to six am will be bargain basement prices. 

We have refused to have one fitted.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

raynipper said:


> Well the day finally came and I had to allow a couple of EDF bods to come and change a perfectly good mechanical electric meter for a new high tech and life benefiting Linky Smart Meter.
> 
> So far I can only see a backward step. I have always been able to see my usage and note the kw used, calculate my expected bill and no surprises.
> The new and life enhancing meter you can only see a light blinking faster to see your using more power? Great but not actual usage indicator other than how many KVa at any one time.
> ...


You have a design award winning meter Ray, enjoy 😉

https://www.smart-energy.com/features-analysis/smart-meters-101-frances-linky-electricity-meters/

Terry


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

You can select the different usage as you did before, they are supposed to show you how before leaving the useless instruction sheet.....

The supposed benefit was adjustment each month of the direct debit..... it has not happened and they have suddenly landed us with a 700€ settlement bill..... our monthly bill is more or less the same as it has always been and normally it all works with no balance or debit at settlement time.

As you said it is a con, award winning or not....


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