# Possibly a really stupid question



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Please look at this first

This popped up on a search for something else, on looking at the picture, I thought that isn't a motor it's an alternator, looking at the label it says 240 volts so it is a motor.

My query is, as it looks like an alternator, and the mountings are alternator like, could it be put under the bonnet to supply 240 to the MH, not full time, but just to charge up the batteries, and maybe even run a microwave.

Like I said Possibly a really stupid question.


----------



## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

I really do think this is a motor Kev. Don't get me wrong but I felt there was a clue in the description and the fact that it looks like a washing machine motor.
Please do not be upset if I suggest that I have seen similar motors in peoples sheds, driving all sorts of devices.
This type of motor is given 240 volts to work, I do not think that it is designed to work both ways, but some are.
Alan


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

It is a 230v washing machine motor that works by applying 230v and the shaft spins and via the belt drive turns the drum.

It will not work backwards i.e. spinning the shaft will not produce 230v at its terminals. I am not sure how you were going to mount it and drive it in any event, via a drive belt from the crankshaft?

A much better alternative is a good bank of leisure batteries with a good solar panel and an inverter. Failing that a generator.


----------



## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

What you need is a DC motor or dynamo mate. Controlling output would your next prob.

Dick


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

This is where it all gets confusing as I have always understood that in simple term alternators/motors are basically the same thing see here

There will be obvious minor differences, such as alternators have a built in regulator pack on them, but the reason I was intrigued by the Ebay item is that the mounting points are very alternator like, IE 2 parallel to each other and on on the opposite side, exactly like an alternator, mounting one would create a much of a problem under most bonnets as there tend to be a few lugs on the engines for other applications, A/C for instance and some are even drilled and threaded.


----------



## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

The question is not as daft as it sounds. 

In some respects, an alternator is like a motor in reverse. In very simplistic terms, a motor uses current running through coils of wire to produce a magnetic field to drive an armature which drives a rotor shaft to produce rotary motion.

An alternator uses rotary motion to drive an armature (magnets) within the field of a coil of wire to induce current which produces electrical power. When I was a lad we had devices called dynamos that were driven by being mounted against the side of our bicycle tyres, that generated power for our lights - but only when you were moving along. The faster you pedalled, the brighter the light!

However there are sufficient differences in the way they are made that would prevent one simply being used in reverse for the other, if you see what I mean.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Glandwr said:


> What you need is a DC motor or dynamo mate. Controlling output would your next prob.
> 
> Dick


Why DC, Dick :?:

I don't want to charge the batteries as the alternator already does that, I want to run electrical stuff with the engine on like a Gennie but much less annoying and the motive power is already there.

I'm not good at explaining problems sometimes   so please bear with me and hopefully we'll arrive at an understanding together :roll: :roll: :roll:


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

rogerblack said:


> The question is not as daft as it sounds.


Thanks Roger



rogerblack said:


> However there are sufficient differences in the way they are made that would prevent one simply being used in reverse for the other, if you see what I mean.


 Please continue Roger


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Was the intention to run the motor only whilst travelling or to idle the engine on site as well?


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

rayc said:


> Was the intention to run the motor only whilst travelling or to idle the engine on site as well?


Both actually Ray I think, static mainly to use the microwave, We don't use site so EHU is not an option hence the need for a mobile 240v supply, and as our next van will be a self build space is at a premium so under the bonnet seems like a very good solution, Plus the van we did get to convert did have such a device, but they removed it before sale.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Just done a little research just to confuse me even more  

1st bit

Linked bit

I know I'm stretching the patience of some but I left school along time ago with nothing, and I still have most of it left.


----------



## Chrys (Sep 3, 2011)

Like I said Possibly a really stupid question.[/quote]

Not such a stupid question.

Electrolux used to market a product called either Travelpower or Travelpack. This was a 240 volt Alternator bolted on the front of an engine driven by a second belt.

Used a lot in the narrowboating world.

I think it has been discontinued but used ones are occasionally on the market

Chris


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > Was the intention to run the motor only whilst travelling or to idle the engine on site as well?
> ...


Is this link any use  
http://www.redrok.com/cimtext.pdf

Good luck, I will be very interted when you get it working. I just wonder what the advantage is over a good battery bank and an inverter. Running the vehicle engine will charge the batteries which will feed the inverter which will run the microwave - or am I missing something?

We are walking down the pub now for the Sunday Roast and a bottle of wine. I can't wait to get back so that I can continue to read this topic, I hope the wine does not blunt my logical thinking capability.


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Chrys said:


> Like I said Possibly a really stupid question.


Not such a stupid question.

Electrolux used to market a product called either Travelpower or Travelpack. This was a 240 volt Alternator bolted on the front of an engine driven by a second belt.

Used a lot in the narrowboating world.

I think it has been discontinued but used ones are occasionally on the market

Chris[/quote]

I think the price of them was about £3000 - £4000 and normally fitted when the engine was installed.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

rayc said:


> We are walking down the pub now for the Sunday Roast and a bottle of wine. I can't wait to get back so that I can continue to read this topic, I hope the wine does not blunt my logical thinking capability.


 Hope you had a fine lunch



rayc said:


> I just wonder what the advantage is over a good battery bank and an inverter. Running the vehicle engine will charge the batteries which will feed the inverter which will run the microwave - or am I missing something?


I hope you're missing something or this will have been one of my more pointless posts 
 

The advantage as I see it is at the very least a faster re-charge of the batteries after inverter use without having to fire up a gennie, or go for a drive, but also not having to use the inverter at all for some jobs, see here too by running the engine (assuming it would create enough juice) I can have a the micky on.

I'm sure there are advantages I haven't even thought of yet, and also some huge problems, like some way to disengage the extra alternator when not needed so it's not using engine power.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Chrys said:


> Like I said Possibly a really stupid question.


Not such a stupid question.

Electrolux used to market a product called either Travelpower or Travelpack. This was a 240 volt Alternator bolted on the front of an engine driven by a second belt.

Used a lot in the narrowboating world.

I think it has been discontinued but used ones are occasionally on the market

Chris[/quote]

I did see something on the "waterworld" program a while back, I even found a site selling them, but it seems to have died, but it was mega expensive.


----------



## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> rogerblack said:
> 
> 
> > The question is not as daft as it sounds.
> ...


For one thing, most motors of any decent power rating would probably have a capacitor wired in to allow for the surge of power required to 'kick-start it'. Equally you might need a capacitor on the output from a motor being used in reverse as a 'generator', to smooth the output - but the wiring in either case mightn't be identical.

As one of the attachments previously posted mentioned - you are dealing with voltage/current capability that can kill so the project you propose is not for the unwary nor with respect someone who doesn't really understand what he's doing - no offence intended.

I reproduce below the standard wording that goes on the end of every e-mail I send in relation to my business, where I'm being paid to supply stuff and give application advice:

*All technical advice, recommendations and services are based on technical data and information which the Seller believes to be reliable and these are intended for use by persons having skill and knowledge of the business, at their own discretion. All responsibility for decisions as to the suitability for our products for use in a particular application rests with the customer. Where required, we recommend obtaining the services of a suitable technically qualified consultant before proceeding.*


----------



## ched999uk (Jan 31, 2011)

Maybe an easier solution would be buy a generator that has a broken engine. That way you have the generation part and the regulation. You just need to mount it and work out how to get a drive to it at an appropriate speed.
Remember that if you set it up to provide the 240v you need at tickover it will be spinning much faster during driving!!!!!


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

rogerblack said:


> As one of the attachments previously posted mentioned - you are dealing with voltage/current capability that can kill so the project you propose is not for the unwary nor with respect someone who doesn't really understand what he's doing - no offence intended.
> 
> I reproduce below the standard wording that goes on the end of every e-mail I send in relation to my business, where I'm being paid to supply stuff and give application advice:
> 
> *All technical advice, recommendations and services are based on technical data and information which the Seller believes to be reliable and these are intended for use by persons having skill and knowledge of the business, at their own discretion. All responsibility for decisions as to the suitability for our products for use in a particular application rests with the customer. Where required, we recommend obtaining the services of a suitable technically qualified consultant before proceeding.*


There is no way I'd get involved with the building or installation of this kind of kit, first thing is to discover if and how it can be done, attempt to source the materials, and then find an unsuspecting sparky type to do the rest.

I know it can be done but probably for the reasons you mention there'snot much info out there that I can disseminate.

I think the idea is sound enough, the practicalities might be the limiting factor, but you never know, this might spur someone who can on to actually do.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

ched999uk said:


> Maybe an easier solution would be buy a generator that has a broken engine. That way you have the generation part and the regulation. You just need to mount it and work out how to get a drive to it at an appropriate speed.
> Remember that if you set it up to provide the 240v you need at tickover it will be spinning much faster during driving!!!!!


I could but that wouldn't achieve the objective of having it under the bonnet, driven by the engine, perhaps using a magnetic disengage it when not needed, and as mentioned there will be no space for a genny elsewhere.


----------



## JIMY (Feb 24, 2011)

You used to be able to buy an alternator for L/R etc which could be used for welding. Is this the sort of thing?
Jim


----------



## cabby (May 14, 2005)

do you not have room for a genny being hung under the van.a choice of lpg or diesel power.then again did I not see 12v microwaves for sale on ebay a while ago.whatever choice I would worry about insulation and earthing. :? :? 

cabby


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

cabby said:


> do you not have room for a genny being hung under the van.a choice of lpg or diesel power.then again did I not see 12v microwaves for sale on ebay a while ago.whatever choice I would worry about insulation and earthing. :? :?
> 
> cabby


There tends not to be much room under them after water tanks etc have been installed, and most gennys tend to be quite tall.

Some open mentioned boat power earlier found this, @ bottom of page still searching for the link.

I wonder where AMEC get there engine powered gennys from, might be the same kit.


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> ched999uk said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe an easier solution would be buy a generator that has a broken engine. That way you have the generation part and the regulation. You just need to mount it and work out how to get a drive to it at an appropriate speed.
> ...


How about this?
http://www.unipower.com.au/prod_up3500.asp

I guess you will have to get the gearing / revs right to keep it spinning at 8000rpm.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

rayc said:


> Kev_n_Liz said:
> 
> 
> > ched999uk said:
> ...


8k rpm, Hmm that doesn't sound right to me, but not read it proper like yet.

Found this, but not a suplier yet though.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I knew it was out there somewhere

Not quite where I thought we'd end up, but at least it is possible funds permitting, next is to look at the downside.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Apparently it's been discontinued now, but the boat guys might know of an alternative.


It looks like I'm going to join a narrowboat forum

Watch this space.


----------



## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

A lot of self sufficient gurus in the Antipodes use the motor from a Kelvinator washing machine in home made wind turbines. I do not propose that this is a suitable method in your case but it proves that a domestic 240 volt motor CAN be used to generate power.

I believe that any Permanent Magnet Induction motor (if that is the correct phraseology) can be used to generate power.

My advice.... get a bigger van. :lol:


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

rayc said:


> Chrys said:
> 
> 
> > Electrolux used to market a product called either Travelpower or Travelpack. This was a 240 volt Alternator bolted on the front of an engine driven by a second belt.
> ...


I mussed av missed that bit DOH   :roll: :roll: :wink: :wink: :arrow: :arrow:


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

rayc said:


> Is this link any use
> http://www.redrok.com/cimtext.pdf


Not alf mate to quote Mr Blackburn, I almost understood some of it, I shall save that one in my electrickery folder.

Thanks Ray.


----------

