# Electric shock training collars



## Annsman

This is a genuine request for advice/opinion to what is, for us, a serious problem.

We are at our wits end with our little dog. We got her in May from a rescue centre and she is a cracking little dog, apart from one thing! 

Recall! Sometimes she will and sometimes she won't. On a beach she responds to me calling her or blowing the dog whistle virtually straight away. And on a small field near where we live. However. Anywhere else and it's virtually guaranteed she will ignore us. We've tried treats, praise, shouting everything. Nothing stops her and she has absolutely no road sense. Thinking of nothing else but the hunt.

Today she was absent without leave for four hours. She was never more than 200 yards away from me, but just totally ignored my calls. Chasing rabbits. She never caught one. The thing is when she gets the scent you can see it's the only thing she can think of. She eventually gave herself up totally exhausted, cold & wet. She knows she has done wrong without us shouting at her, we just gave her the silent treatment!

We have started to look at those electric shock collars as a last resort. I know they're illegal in Wales but we don't live there! I hate the thought of hurting her and would only use it on the lowest setting to surpise her rather than cause her pain. 

We do love her and we are sure it's how she came to be in the kennels. Someone just lost patience with her and left her behind. 

So that's our dilemna. Do we try one or, to us the unthinkable, admit defeat and return her and let someone else have the problem?


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## tokkalosh

What breed is she?


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## raynipper

Our Lab x Dane came from Battersea Dogs Hom and was as wild as they come.
But we soon found out he was scared of bangs. So out walking in Richmond Park I used to carry a starting pistol and any time he ignored my call, the bang brought him back immediately. 
Only needed to carry it for a week or so.

Ray.


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## KeithChesterfield

Have a look at these people - www.barkbusters.co.uk/

There may be one in your area and at least they can probably give helpful advice to try and solve the problem.

Electric collars are not only a last resort but can be counter productive as the dog may think your only intention is to cause pain, however small, and may react accordingly.

Read some of the reports about the collars on the Internet before you decide to buy one.

If the dog is young they will probably grow out of the problem but seek proffesional advice before giving up on the dog.


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## Stanner

raynipper said:


> Our Lab x Dane came from Battersea Dogs Hom and was as wild as they come.
> But we soon found out he was scared of bangs. So out walking in Richmond Park I used to carry a starting pistol and any time he ignored my call, the bang brought him back immediately.
> Only needed to carry it for a week or so.
> 
> Ray.


Was his name "Fenton!" :lol:

(NOT Benton............as first thought)


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## Kev1

Bloody hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Brave man waving a starting pistol round in the middle of London.

So how long did it take for the armed reponse units to turn up?

Bet they loved your excuse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## motormouth

Have you had her to a dog trainer???
I am sure she can be cured of this without the need of a shock collar. She does come back to you some of the time so knows the commands you give her, she just chooses to ignore them when something else is more interesting.
We took our border collie pup to a trainer and after a few sessions she would do most of the basics. 
Have you tried an extending lead especially in areas where rabbits abound then pull her back when she starts to run off and reward with a treat or praise???


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## peribro

I don't like the idea of electric collars and I think I recall reading that the RSPCA may try to prosecute in England under existing laws.

How about extensive training using one of those very long retractable leads? Allow her to go to the full extent of the lead and then calling her back and pulling her in if she doesn't respond. Rewarded with treats once pulled back in, then the message may get through.


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## Rosbotham

It's an absolute "no" from me.

Rudy was like that at one stage; eventually he grew out of it. I'd rather keep the dog on lead than subject him/her to electric shock treatment.


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## litcher

My labrador had selective hearing and would totally ignore me if it suited him. I bought a remote controlled collar that gave out a puff of citronella or air depending on the refill. The first time I used it he yelped, leapt into the air and scurried back to me. I didn't need to use it very often! :lol: 

I went for that one as it doesn't hurt the dog or cause any discomfort; it's just the surprise of the puff of air that distracts them. It's the same idea as the anti-bark collars that react to the dog barking and release a puff of air.

Viv


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## erneboy

We had a similar problem but didn't want to use an electric collar.

We decided to try this it has a beep option and if the dog doesn't respond you can deliver a small spurt or a larger shot of water to focus their attention. It worked well for us. Get a few spare batteries as the one in the unit gets used up in a few days at first.

I know what you are going through, you don't want to cruel to your dog but you feel that a stupid refusal to obey could get your dog killed or cause an accident.

I have seen those cheaper somewhere, have a search, Alan.


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## wakk44

I have the same dilemna,a terrier that will do obedience for 99% of the time but if she gets a scent of vermin would not be seen for several hours. :roll:

Electric shock collars are illegal in Wales but can be used in England and Scotland although the subject is due to be debated in the respective parliaments.

The use of these remote controlled training collars is an emotive issue,one side will say they are a cruel inhumane device that inflicts pain,the opposing argument is the collar is a valuable training aid that could prevent problem dogs being put down.



motormouth said:


> I am sure she can be cured of this without the need of a shock collar.


I think some breeds have such strong working instincts that it is often impossible to cure this hunting prey instinct.



Annsman said:


> Do we try one or, to us the unthinkable, admit defeat and return her and let someone else have the problem?


There is another option,always keep her on the lead which is what I do with both of ours for different reasons,one has a very strong hunting instinct like yours,the other is aggressive with any male dog bigger than him.

I realise that the dog can't get as much exercise on the lead but I use a 5m extending type which gives them a bit of a run and is a decent compromise. :wink:

It sounds like you have bonded with the dog so taking it back to the kennels would be heartbreaking,particularly so because if a new home can't be found she could be put down.


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## DTPCHEMICALS

I am currently trying to train a Husky.
Aloof little b`s they are.

the one thing a dog cannot resist is a biccy.

Shelties and rough collies have been a dream to train in comparison.

Dave p


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## bazzeruk

You should try owning a Cocker!! 

Mad as a hatter - absolutely no brains if he sees a Rabbit or a Squirrel and if he sees a Pheasant he goes completely deaf!!

BUT - the best thing we ever did getting him


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## patnles

It's a definite no from me I'm afraid but can understand your desperation. My Labrador is so focused when she's hunting for her ball she has her nose to the ground and although she knows hand signals, she often refuses to look at me for directions. 
I would have a few sessions with a one to one trainer but make sure the person is APDT registered as anyone can call themselves a dog trainer with no qualifications whatsoever. Also there is the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC), they may be able to help. 
The rescue centre may have there own behaviourist that may be able to offer advice.
Lesley

PS. If the dog is insured your insurance may cover the cost of a behaviourist.


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## 4maddogs

It is a no from me too. Not only is it cruel ( try one on yourself) but it only gives the message that they will be hurt. 

I have 3 rescue springers and a rescue working strain golden retriever. We often have to keep the goldie on a long lead as he wanders off....never for that long though, so I do appreciate you must be wanting a solution. 

Our first springer was 9 months when she came to us and would run for miles back and forth on the beach ....and up the cliffs...and swim out to sea after birds. We didn't dare take her to the woods. We used a 100 foot climbing rope (the very thin sort) so she could run between us for a ball. Gradually we let go of the rope, but it was getting the second dog that persuaded her to come back reliably. She is now 4 and is so good. She still goes after anything small and furry or feathery (she is exceptionally fast, but never catches anything unlike the slower one that catches squirrels in the woods  ) but comes back straight away.

It is down to training which is hard to keep up for some of us. The type of dog makes a difference too...you often see very docile, slow greyhounds on leads who cannot help themselves if off lead!

Good luck, get some help from a trainer on a one to one basis and I hope it all works out


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## 747

It seems like you have come to this decision without asking for help from experts first.

Get in touch from the kennel where the dog came from and see what they will do. They have a moral obligation to help you. You could always tell them that you are at the end of your tether and might have to have the dog destroyed. As my Granny used to say 'tell a lie where a lie fits in'. :wink: 

These shock collars should be banned unless it is law that the owner has to wear one as well. Don't take this personally but I have seen plenty of badly behaved dogs solely because the owner did not have a clue. Not in this case though.


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## spatz1

simply put,,,you dont need to train your dog
your dog should be on the lead at all times and you in control...

why risk the poor dog being put down ?

How so you ask , if it went near a dog like mine and a fight ensued as i put up with what seems a regular occurance and in sepperating them i got bit, by god i d report the incident for the lack of respect to responsible owners who abide by the law and use a lead...and i d sue.... :evil: 

its a misconception your dog has a right to be out of control and wander free in public and by law you have to be 16 so if your kids are walking it you re responsible and thus any incident its deemed your dog wasnt in control in public..and i can only assume that means even on the lead but would like to know...

As for electric shock, use it on yourself a day and lets see if you re still keen and can i suggest a u tube video...

sorry , but its such a regular occurance we rally get naffed off with it

rant over :lol: :lol:


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## RobMD

It's a Definite No from me. They were banned in Wales, and I'm glad to say there have been prosecutions where the ban has been ignored.

A Dog is an intelligent creature and causing him pain is counter-productive - fear is not the key to an obedient dog!
I accept it can be difficult and worrying if your dog is as disobedient as you describe - have you discussed it with a trainer or behaviourist? Has he been neutered (this may make a difference)?
It can sometimes help if he is given so much opportunity to follow his nose that it becomes no big deal.
Please persevere, and don't even consider one of these barbaric contraptions!

The shock these things give is painful - try one and see!! When we were outside the assembly building in Cardiff protesting about them, a collar was being examined when it was activated - the person holding it soon decided they were not acceptable!


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## ToffeApple

Hi there,
You don't say what breed of dog she is, but sounds like a terrier.
The quote is " You can't train the Terrier out of a Terrier." Ther hve been brd to hunt, and hunt they will.

My Parson Jack Russell is brilliant ( for a Terrier) but now the rabbits and deer are becoming active, she is getting more and more independant & going off on one.
I put her back on the extender lead where I know she tends to disappear so I know she is safe.
You could also try a very long training lead which would give her far more freedom to run around.

Chris & Tilly.

PS: Please don't give up on her - both my previous Jack and the present one have been rescues and I couldn't bear to send them back, no matter what! :roll: :roll:


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## bulawayolass

Not just no but under NO circumstances use electric collar in fact none of the smell, squirt, shock collars should be used as someone pointed out they are all to often counter productive and will stop one problem and bring on a new one often worse.

Avoid the standard dog trainers to often those are self taught or via basic courses that just train for pet dogs with at most very basic problems, you need a proper behaviourist this isnt cheap but if you want to solve the problem you need to do it right. look at the following website for help in your area.

http://www.apbc.org.uk/help/index with the APBC the only people l recommend. Slightly cheaper are COAPE behaviourists but they are not as good to my mind.

Usually your behaviourist will ask you to get the pet vet checked to make sure there is no medical reason for the problem.


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## LisaB

It doesn't have to be an electric shock collar, we had similar trouble with Boris god rest his soul now, we had one of the collars that just puff some air under the chin no pain just catches the dogs attention again for you to recall and reward. They can also puff a citronella spray. I think from memory it was called a master vet pro. Not cheap, but we would have surely had him lost, stolen or killed on the road without it. We only used it for a while he soon got the just of it and if he lapsed just wearing the collar without a spray worked!


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## wakk44

As a dog lover and owner for 35 years I would not normally advocate any training device which inflicts pain on an animal.

However even the renowned dog trainer Cesar Millan has used them in extreme cases see here

He doesn't advocate them in normal situations,only in a ''last chance''scenario where the dog is in immediate danger of being destroyed because of severe behavioural problems.

The problem with the electric collar is the person that is in control of it,sadly there are some sadistic people about that get a perverse enjoyment from inflicting pain on animals.There was a local story in Nottingham recently where a tethered dog in a public park was being used as bait to train fighting dogs,fortunately it was rescued by a valiant passer by and made a full recovery from quite severe injuries.

If a dog is seen as a hopeless case and is going to be put down then why not give the shock collar a try as a last resort only?If there was a registered list of dog trainers that would use the device sparingly then surely it is worth a try rather than destroying the dog.


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## camallison

In one word ...... NO!

Your dog should be on a lead and under control at all times. Our Labrador is a working dog and the only time she is off the lead is when she is truly "working", well away from the public. Otherwise, we let her roam on a long extending lead.

Many breeds have a roaming/hunting instinct and it is cruel (in my humble opinion) to attempt to inflict pain just to correct this natural instinct. Far better a happy dog restrained only by a lead.

Best of luck - I wish you well in training your dog - you will eventually come to some compromise between you and the dog.

Colin


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## drcotts

Hi Annsman
As a part timecanine psycologist I hope my opinion proves of some use

Please excuse spelling as i am doing this at work and also please excuse the gender reference of him in case its a her

With regards to problems with dogs in general unless the fundamental cause of the issue is identified and treated then this type of device will prove at best totally useless and at best the problem being treated will be supressed but will usually manifest itself on other ways.
These shock collars are often used to treat barking or jumping up which are "habits" that the dog has aquired and devoloped and when used they will pften stop the dog barking etc but beause the dog cannot barl - which for him is as natural as takling is to us then other problems will develop ie the dog may urinate in the house, develop agressive tendencies or a range of other behaviours that are not required.

Just like hitting a dog any form of pain used to control behaviour is totally unecessary because at the end of the day the dog is probally doing exactly what you have asked of him...as far as he is concerned. Its just that you dont realise you have asked him.

For instance i treat a few dogs who bark for no apparent reason but when the owner and dog are seen the reasons are quire plain. The dog will bark for what seems no apparent reason and then the owner shouts at the dog to "shut up" or "Be quiet" this is seen by the dog as joining in and so the dog bark even more and the owner shouts even louder.

Problems with recall or the lack of it are fundamentally due to the fact that the dog thinks he is your leader and can therefore do as he pleases. You may think your the boss but in most cases when thr relationship of the owner(s) and dog is analysed its is usually found that the opposite is the case. You may be feeding, walking and oing all the oter things he likes just when he wants them and this is seen by the dog as you putting him in a position of dominance.

You shold in the fist instance tske on a more positive role in the relationship and assert yourself as the domiment partner and indeed everyone in te house including any childern should do the same. This may be seen as being cruel to the dog but in fact the opposite is the case as when a dog knows his place in the pack he/she will be more at ease generally and have less issues. 

I would suggest the following.

Fundamentally remember to only treat good behaviour and totally ignore bad behaviour. If the dog comes immediately he.she is called thenthis is good behaviour and so can be rewarded - sometime with a treat sometime with just a real good fuss and lots of verbal praise. If he/she doesnt come back straight away then dont give any treats or praise at all.

Keep the dog on a lead so if he doesnt come back you can still keep him under control.

Other ways of asserting dominace are

Feed the dog when you have had your dinner and indeed let him see you eating it.

Dont let him go throught doors or gates in front of you - make him stay until you and the reat of the family have passed through.

Give him lots of verbal commands and generally try to train him to respond to commends in short sharp training sessions of 5 mins each such as aking him to sit, stay come etc and reward him with lots of praise when he does.

Dont feed him your dinner especiall from the table. Its hard not to do this but if you igore him he will soon get fed up. 
If he/she sits on the furniture allow this until you want to sit down and then make him get off and sit on the floor.

When out walking give him something positive to do rather than just let him do his own thing so a good game is to get his favourite toy - make him sit and stay and then hide it. then say "find your toy " and let him go find it. When he does then give him lots of praise and play which will reinforce your position with him..this is the way the police train the drug dogs and they train ten a few time a year where i work.

I hope this info is useful but please feek free to PM me if you need any more info

Phill


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## froggy59

bazzeruk said:


> You should try owning a Cocker!!
> 
> Mad as a hatter - absolutely no brains if he sees a Rabbit or a Squirrel and if he sees a Pheasant he goes completely deaf!!
> 
> BUT - the best thing we ever did getting him


know that feeling, i have two


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## raynipper

Any dog, animal, bird, rhodent and even humans can be trained.
Like everything it's the 'stick' or the 'carrot' 

My starting pistol didn't actually hurt our dog Russel (Stanner) but it made him seek security with me.
The crack of a starting pistol is quite flat and localised Kev1.

A good friend (now dead) had all sorts of animals and birds. He trained his chickens to come for food with a WW2 'clicker'. One click and he was surrounded by chickens.!!!
He also had a donkey that was more of a pet than his dog. The thing used to sit at the table outside at mealtimes. Trouble was it kept trying to come into the kitchen at breakfast.

Food as a reward can work wonders.

Ray.


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## Stanner

raynipper said:


> Russel (Stanner)


This is why I asked (in case it's fame hasn't made it across La manche)






It was your mention of Richmond Park..


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## raynipper

Brilliant Stanner.
That brought back many vivid memories.

My dog Russel tried to chase the deer before he was trained. The deer helped as it was the calving season and they chased him all the way back to me. He never did it again.

But I have seen other dog owners screaming their way over the horizon in the park.
Even some dumb parents allowing their kids to harass the deer. A deer can right off a car.!!!!

Ray.


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## Annsman

A big thank you to everyone who has replied. I'll try to explain a bit more.

She is a Parsons/Irish/Border/lurcher cross. We only know for certain she is from Ireland, it's where the rescue place, "Many Tears", get most of their dogs for re-homing from. She is about 15-18 months old, she was 9-12 months whe we got her in May. I've spoken to a "terrier man", who worked them for a living, a few months ago on another of her "walkabouts", when she slipped her collar. After watching her "work" a hedgerow, he said it looked like very much like she has been partly trained to hunt, usually with a couple of lurchers or a man with a gun. It was more than likely travellers and they'd got fed up waiting for her to return and drove off. (I now know the feeling!) So we're up against breeding and training not just a desire to nip off and see the rabbits! She doesn't bother with farm animals in any way though. I know this because we have some friends who have a famr and we've been there and she was most disinterested in the sheep and cattle, mildly interested in the chickens and hated the pigs!

He gave me some tips and I worked on those and I really thought we were making progress. I only let her off the lead when we are well away from traffic or built up areas. Canal towpaths,old quarries that type of thing. When we were in Spain last Autumn I let her off on the beach and she came back everytime to her dog whistle, even when she was playing with other dogs it was like she was on elastic! So I thought she was "getting there". Of course now she won't be allowed off the lead EVER!

We've had two Cocker Spaniels before and they lived to 15 and 16 respectively and I used the same methods to train them and they both responded to recall with the whistle. For the record. I wanted another Cocker but my wife wanted a different breed and fell for the picture on the web site and Lexis' charm when we met her!

We'll try the different trainers before we go down the collar route because I too think they can be cruel and counter productive, but any port in a storm eh? Taking her back with be the VERY last thing we do because we both love her to bits, (most of the time!)


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## wug

I'm afraid there's a lot of misinformation here about the use of shock collars, usually by people who haven't used them. In essence, they are little different from the electric fences used to control cattle and other livestock. (It is a form of aversion therapy which is still used in various forms on humans.) I have used and tried both and although they give an uncomfortable experience they are not the devil's work as often portrayed.

Most dogs wont need a collar, but all dogs need training and that takes hours of dedication, which very few owners are prepared to do. Does your dog strain on its lead? We see hundreds of dogs nearly pulling their owners of their feet. Ours doesn't, and that's just through normal time-consuming training.

If you are going to use it on a dog, I suggest you go to a trainer who specialises in using this device and who will train you and the dog on its use.

And remember, a dog isn't a little hairy human - it's a underdeveloped wolf with a lot of the same instincts.

The shock isn't used routinely - if it is then it is being misused, just as giving children sweets or presents to shut them up or get their "love" is a sign of failure. It is used in an "emergency" when all else has failed. The shock, if it is required is preceded by a buzz which is often enough to bring the dog to heel. When the dog sets off and ignores all whistles, calls, buzzes or you know from experience that it will ignore everything, such as when ours chases a deer, then a quick brief shock can bring it back and you are saved hours of worry and the possibility of the dog coming to harm.

Ours used to chase sheep, but doesn't anymore and now just ignores them. So she isn't going to get shot by a farmer for sheep worrying.

The alternative is always to keep the dog on a lead, especially in the countryside (where we do all our walking), but that seems to me more cruel as a dog's instinct (from its wolf days) is to run and roam, with the owner keeping it under control with good recall. And how can you keep a dog fit if it's never off the lead? We see so many overweight dogs around because they are overfed and under-exercised and to me that's cruelty as well.

So before all you animal lovers start shooting me down, have a look at your own dog and tell me it's as fit as a flee.


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## Rosbotham

wug said:


> And remember, a dog isn't a little hairy human - it's a underdeveloped wolf with a lot of the same instincts.


Actually that's bad science (or should I say anthropology) and pretty comprehensively discredited. Much of the material based around treating dogs a particular way because they're descended from wolves falls apart because the studies of wolves were of the wrong variety, and in any case were undertaken with wolves in captive environment where they act in an atypical way. So while techniques like Cesar Milan's and domination may well work, they're not working because the natural instinct of a dog is to be dominated by a pack leader : in fact in the wild...even if one accepts that after many generations of breeding social characteristics of dogs remain like they're ancestors (*)...wolf packs operate in a more co-operative/collegiate manner.

I can heartily recommend "In Defence of Dogs" by eminent biologist/anthropologist Prof John Bradshaw (review here)...it's by no means an easy read, nor is it a training manual, but it is fascinating.

This is not to say that e.g. Milan's techniques are necessarily wrong, it is to say that the science behind them is bogus.

_(*) even if the wolf-linkage was correct, to compare canine behaviour with contemporary wolf behaviour is a bit like basing human psychology on observing apes in a zoo_


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## spatz1

wug said:


> And remember, a dog isn't a little hairy human - it's a underdeveloped wolf with a lot of the same instincts.
> 
> Ours used to chase sheep, but doesn't anymore and now just ignores them. So she isn't going to get shot by a farmer for sheep worrying.
> 
> The alternative is always to keep the dog on a lead, especially in the countryside (where we do all our walking), but that seems to me more cruel as a dog's instinct (from its wolf days) is to run and roam, with the owner keeping it under control with good recall. And how can you keep a dog fit if it's never off the lead? We see so many overweight dogs around because they are overfed and under-exercised and to me that's cruelty as well.
> 
> So before all you animal lovers start shooting me down, have a look at your own dog and tell me it's as fit as a flee.


Too right they have instincts, too wrong you THINK you have it under control off the lead...

fit off the lead, ?? simples, 100 indoor jumps and he s worn out (164 consecutive his personal best )






Ps without the ball in his mouth he has been known to bite the light...


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## The-Cookies

no such thing as a dog that needs pain to obey what you want it to do, this dog knows that in certain places it can do what it likes, use a really long extending lead and lots of treats, it has to realise you are more interesting than sniffing in a hedge bottom.

no 2 dogs are exactly alike , and you have to understand this 1 has hangups from previous, probably bad owners, its to much to expect it to perform as well as 1 like ours which has been trained properly from 5 1/2 weeks old.

personally i would stick with it as I couldn't bear taking it back.

John


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## wug

Rosbotham said:


> wug said:
> 
> 
> 
> And remember, a dog isn't a little hairy human - it's a underdeveloped wolf with a lot of the same instincts.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually that's bad science (or should I say anthropology) and pretty comprehensively discredited.
Click to expand...

Why do people always attack you not for what you say but for what they think you say? I was trying to point out that one should not be anthropomorphic in our attitude towards domestic animals - they are not that far removed from their wild ancestors (and nor are we).

A dog is "underdeveloped" in the sense that it hasn't become a wolf, because of the effects of selective breeding (it has a smaller brain for example) and because of environmental factors - obviously they don't live in packs and roam in the wild and unlike wolves they live with humans.

It certainly has "a lot of the same instincts" - I haven't seen any evidence to disprove that general statement.

No where did I say you should treat dogs like wolves and I certainly dislike the suggestion that my piece was like comparing the behaviour of humans with apes in a zoo.

Also, the idea of the "pack leader" as applied to both dogs and wolves has been discredited by recent research.

Finally, if we're going to contest what someone else has said then why let the facts get in the way of a good soundbite?


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## Rosbotham

Erm, what are you really angry about Wug?

I didn't attack you at all...if my words were construed to be an attack, then I'm sorry.

I merely highlighted that the science has moved on from any meaningful linkage between wolf and canine behaviour. Tell you what, read the book I referenced then consider whether you still think the statement that a dog is an _"underdeveloped wolf with a lot of the same instincts"_ is the case. Oh and I agree, they're not hairy little humans either.


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## wug

OK, apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

Re Bradshaw's book, I think the jury may still be out, but an interesting thesis.


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## Rosbotham

Indeed, there's still some debate. 

To be fair, the behaviour originally described - chasing - is thought to come from wolf ancestry. However, it's things like wanting to be first out of the door being interpreted as an attempt at dominance that Bradshaw objects to...his contention is that it's more about the excitement of going out. Sorry, wandering OT a bit.


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## Rapide561

*Electric collars*

My view on these electric collars is simple. Try it on yourself first a few times, then on your partner. If it is acceptable, the it probably is for the dog. If it hurts, would you really subject your dog to it?

Russell


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## wug

Rosbotham said:


> Indeed, there's still some debate.
> 
> wanting to be first out of the door being interpreted as an attempt at dominance that Bradshaw objects to...his contention is that it's more about the excitement of going out


Agreed. This top dog, leader of the pack, alpha male seems to tell us more about ourselves and our hierarchical society. A bit like rel....no, we wont go there.


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## wug

*Re: Electric collars*



Rapide561 said:


> My view on these electric collars is simple. Try it on yourself first a few times, then on your partner. If it is acceptable, the it probably is for the dog. If it hurts, would you really subject your dog to it?
> 
> Russell


As I said earlier, I have done, likewise electric fences. Not nice, but neither is being run over.


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## CurlyBoy

Hi, for gun dog training I use the normal dog whistle to recall, but if a dog ignores this, go to the dog grab a hold and using a very loud whistle, say a referee or police type, blow it very loud and close to the dog until he reacts. It always works as they don't like the sound and will associate this with the disobedience.
good luck
curlyboy


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## Jodi1

A friend of mine who is a very responsible dog owner had a lovely Labrador. He was inclined to run off so she spent a lot of time and money training her dog and his recall became perfect. However if he spotted sheep, even those miles away, he would be off and totally ignored her. His intention was to kill sheep not just chase, in every other way he was a lovely friendly gentle dog, but as soon as he spotted a sheep he became a wolf.

She took him to a dog trainer who worked hard with him but to no avail. He kept sheep and he put the dog in with a (horned) ewe and lamb in an enclosure. Despite the ewe trying to batter the dog, it didn't stop him. He was put in with a couple of rams who chased him everywhere, but still the dog wouldn't stop chasing sheep. Finally after all else (and I mean all else) failed, the trainer asked my friend if she would like to try an electric collar. He told her how they worked and she put the collar on her arm and felt the 'shock' for herself. At the lowest setting it was just a small flick on her skin. The dog was fitted with the collar. When he started to chase the sheep a warning noise was sounded by the collar, which he ignored, so, at the lowest setting, the dog was given a shock. He yelped and stopped for a few seconds, then took off after the sheep again. The noise followed by a shock stopped him in his tracks this time and he came instantly back to heel on recall. She never had to use the shock again. On a couple of occasions the noise was sounded after he set off after the sheep, but he didn't risk anything more happening and came back.
My friend is certain that had she not used this collar, she would either have to have kept the dog permenantly on a lead or risk him killing sheep and being destroyed. It was a last ditch solution after everything else failed. She was trained how to use the collar properly by an expert and felt that in this situation it worked.


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## wug

That mirrors our experience with the collar. Don't just buy one, go to a trainer to learn how to use it.


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## wakk44

Jodi1 said:


> A friend of mine who is a very responsible dog owner had a lovely Labrador. He was inclined to run off so she spent a lot of time and money training her dog and his recall became perfect. However if he spotted sheep, even those miles away, he would be off and totally ignored her. His intention was to kill sheep not just chase, in every other way he was a lovely friendly gentle dog, but as soon as he spotted a sheep he became a wolf.
> 
> She took him to a dog trainer who worked hard with him but to no avail. He kept sheep and he put the dog in with a (horned) ewe and lamb in an enclosure. Despite the ewe trying to batter the dog, it didn't stop him. He was put in with a couple of rams who chased him everywhere, but still the dog wouldn't stop chasing sheep. Finally after all else (and I mean all else) failed, the trainer asked my friend if she would like to try an electric collar. He told her how they worked and she put the collar on her arm and felt the 'shock' for herself. At the lowest setting it was just a small flick on her skin. The dog was fitted with the collar. When he started to chase the sheep a warning noise was sounded by the collar, which he ignored, so, at the lowest setting, the dog was given a shock. He yelped and stopped for a few seconds, then took off after the sheep again. The noise followed by a shock stopped him in his tracks this time and he came instantly back to heel on recall. She never had to use the shock again. On a couple of occasions the noise was sounded after he set off after the sheep, but he didn't risk anything more happening and came back.
> My friend is certain that had she not used this collar, she would either have to have kept the dog permenantly on a lead or risk him killing sheep and being destroyed. It was a last ditch solution after everything else failed. She was trained how to use the collar properly by an expert and felt that in this situation it worked.


So in this case the electric collar training worked,it's hard to argue it's effectiveness when you hear a story like this,it has more than likely prevented a healthy and otherwise well behaved dog from euthanasia.

I recall the circumstances in which the celebrated and popular dog trainer Cesar Millan successfully used an electric dog collar.The dog in question was a pit bull type breed which had a behavioural problem.

No it wasn't the obvious dog aggression problem,the dog had a mission to kill snakes. 8O

The dog lived in an arid part of California and would attack and kill any snake it came across.The problem was there are a lot of highly venomous rattlesnakes in that area.The dog's owner was naturally concerned that the dog could have been bitten and killed by one of the rattlers.

In desperation the owner turned to Cesar Millan for help who decided to use a shock collar,the dog got the message very quickly and when shown a rattle snake in a cage wouldn't even look at it.

It was quite a remarkable turnaround by the dog who previously would go absolutely nuts to attack any snake.


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## patp

Cesar Milan is following methods outdated for years. Yes they make good TV but who knows what is on the cutting room floor?!

Dogs are our companions and have chosen, over thousands of years, to live alongside us. They do not do anything to deliberately upset us. If we fail to understand their motivation then that is surely our problem.
If your rescue dog has indeed been bred to chase then you are fighting a very hard battle to over-ride that instinct. You may have stood a chance if you acquired him/her at seven or eight weeks of age but to re-train a dog that has been practising a certain behaviour for a long time is very very difficult.

The trouble with shock collars is that the dog can completely mis-understand why it is getting shocked. Say, for instance, it is running past an oak tree and gets a shock. The dog could, quite reasonably, attribute the pain to the oak tree. This might mean that it does not want to run past oak trees again and so stays with its owner until it is on the beach...............

My advice would be to see a behaviourist who will look at the overall picture and assess your dog's behaviour comprehensively. They will then come up with a plan of action tailored to your dog and to your circumstances. The most important thing of all is to have a strong bond with your dog built on trust and a shock collar has no part in that.


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## aldra

She is very young at 18 months and will mature

We had trouble with Shadow in his case comes back immediately when called except when he sees another dog then its hit and miss as to whether he comes immediately or after he has visited the other dog

At 3 he is now much better, totally ignored all the ponies, cattle, donkeys in the New Forest but his eyes light up when he sees another dog and you can see the battle he has not to run off and play

Aldra


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## 4maddogs

CurlyBoy said:


> Hi, for gun dog training I use the normal dog whistle to recall, but if a dog ignores this, go to the dog grab a hold and using a very loud whistle, say a referee or police type, blow it very loud and close to the dog until he reacts. It always works as they don't like the sound and will associate this with the disobedience.
> good luck
> curlyboy


What a great idea!!! Frighten the dog. Ak sociate the whistle with fear......then try to use the whistle for recall..

The Gundog club is not in favour of these rough techniques.


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## 747

I think it is funny (haha) to have a name like 4maddogs on a thread about animal behaviour. You should change it to 4littleangels. :lol: 

There again, I would have to change mine to gerroffmechairyabeggar. :wink:


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## weldted

*control collars*

Hi we have a Dog from the Dogs trust he is a great dog but with unknown history, we took him to dog training classes also one to one, but he had a habit of chasing joggers and bikes, we bought a spray collar from Pet Safe, it has a good range both the collar and the unit around your neck are rechargeable, it can squirt plain water or water with citronella and has two levels of sound, we bought it a year ago and are still on the original refills, Results were amazing but timing is very important you have to wait until the dog is actually starting to run, a press of the loud beep first if he does not stop a squirt of the citronella, he stopped dead and ran back to us, within a short time the dog learned that if he ignored the beep twice he would get a squirt, now when a bike or jogger come close he just watches them go by, as he is from the dogs trust you do not know what he went through, but if a squirt of water prevents injury to the jogger/rider/dog it is money well spent. it was around £100 worth every penny if he goes out of site a quick press of the beep and back he comes, if you use the citronella a lot wash under his neck from time to time so he does not get used to the smell


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## patp

You're playing with fire!
What if the dog thinks the jogger gave him the nasty squirt? Next time a jogger comes up from behind and surprises the dog???

There is only one solution to training problems and that is to find a nice safe place and keep practising. The dog must WANT to come back to you more than it wants to do the other thing. With some dogs this is harder than others. Strong prey drives are among the hardest to work with.


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## Gretchibald

A freiend of mine trains hunting dogs to a dog whistle and are mostly a joy to watch but a while ago he got a dog like yours and as a last resort tried the shock collar. First time he used it the dog shot up into the air and done a backwards somersault. It didn't take long for the dog to learn that if he didn't stop after the third whistle he got the shock-- after a while the whistle was all that was needed.


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## patp

Gretchibald said:


> A freiend of mine trains hunting dogs to a dog whistle and are mostly a joy to watch but a while ago he got a dog like yours and as a last resort tried the shock collar. First time he used it the dog shot up into the air and done a backwards somersault. It didn't take long for the dog to learn that if he didn't stop after the third whistle he got the shock-- after a while the whistle was all that was needed.


I think you mean that he doesn't "train" hunting dogs because otherwise he would not need to use a shock collar :roll:


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## cabby

can you get teenager size. :roll: :roll: :roll: 

cabby


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## rugbyken

our i year old setter is quite obedient but just focuses on what she is doing 100% unfortunately this is at the expense of recall commands etc she doesn't have an aggressive bone in her body but but dances around horses cows etc yipping, to date we haven't had any reactions from the other animals but i was worried and nothing else worked so i bought a collar for £30 of e bay it has 4 modes shock & vibrate each with 100 gradients and a buzzer and flashing light ,
as russel suggested the first thing i did was set it to 33% of shock and held my thumb across the probes i threw the collar across the room and i was expecting it, turned it right down to 05 and still made me jump , jan called me a wimp and demanded to try it , must confess did enjoy that but net result the shocker turned off the vibration however seem's to be doing exactly what i need we have it set on 25% and she has only had it used 4 times once when she got out of the van on dartmoor and started dancing around 2 ponies i had visions of me doing a fenton but i buzzed her and she came straight back


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## Annsman

After much heart searching and trying other potential remedies, none of which made the slightest bit of difference to her behaviour, we bit the bullet and sent for an electrical stimulation collar from a web site called British Dog. It came with an instruction DVD and has a range of 350 yards. It has 10 settings and an audible "warning" sound.

I tried it myself on the setting suitable for her, (number 2), and it was the same sensation as licking a 9V transistor battery! (it's a boy thing we've all done it!)

I started off on a fairly secure football pitch sized field and as well as the sensation collar she wore her own collar with a long 4 metre rope from her harness trailing behind. I let the rope go and she shot off, as expected, and I shouted her back. She carried on running around ignoring me. I pressed the audible warning button and called her again, nothing. So I pressed the sensation button. She stopped, shook herself, looked at me, so I called her again. She moved off, but slowly this time. I sounded the warning and called her again. She stopped and looked at me, so I called her again and she started to walk slowly back to me. I called her and as she got to me I made a big fuss of her and gave her a big treat.

That first time out I used the sensation button no more than three more times to get her to stop and she started to come back just using the audible warning.

At no time did she leap into the air, do somersaults, yelp in pain or any other such thing. I would say the sensation she feels is more irritation rather than actual pain.

After a week or so I reduced the length of the rope and carried on the same, but now she came back either straight away after being called or after using the audible warning.

After another week I removed the rope attachment and since then she only has her harness, the training collar and her ordinary collar on. I can count on one hand the number of times I had to "zap" her to get her to come back to me, and that's under the extreme provocation of a rabbit flaunting itself metres away!

I have to say we were extremely reluctant to go down the "collar" route. It was only because we'd tried everything else and were afraid she would cause an accident to either herself or someone else, or both. We now wish we had done it sooner! She is a joy to be out with. I can let her off the lead to run around, chase things and have a good sniff and explore of the area we are in, and this is most important to us, she hasn't lost any of her sparkle or love of life. If anything it has made her less stressed, calmer and she seems to enjoy our walks more. It seems to have removed the frantic, frenzied, "prey driven chasing behaviour" that seemed to be her sole motivation. I haven't had to use the stimulation button now for about a fortnight, and the audible button only occasionally. I've now introduced a dog whistle to get her to come back and it's been a huge success. I sound that and she comes to me straight away. She'll walk along side me without her lead and I can even get her to "wait" for me to catch her up. Amazing! 

If your dog isn't responding to any other training techniques and is in good health, and you are a sensible adult who only wants to do the best thing for your dog, then you could do much worse that try one of these collars.


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## Spiritofherald

Try a professional trainer first, then If you really must resort to a deterrent try a citronella collar, not an electric shock collar. The principle is the same but instead of an electric shock it dispenses a very dilute spray of citronella which distracts them instantly.

Take a look at this - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-CITRO...6?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Dogs&hash=item2313654200


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## 4maddogs

*Shame on you.*

Words fail me.

The sooner those things are made illegal, the better. 
Why on earth anyone would think frightening and hurting a dog into submission was a good idea I really do not know. 
If your dog came from the rescue organisations that I gave my dog from they would be taking it back.


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## rayrecrok

Hmm.

Once you become "Alpha dog" you will get control, if the dog is alpha dog you are in-sequential to them and an irritant in their exploring..

You do not become alpha dog by shocking them, beating them, or shouting at them you are only the human who mistreats them.

A dog only responds to firm kindness and repetition and you have to reinforce the repetition constantly so the dog gets used to it and it becomes second nature, as most dogs aim to please.. In nature the alpha dog turns round on it's underlings and gives them a nip if they get out of line, that is engraved as an instinct so they expect some retaliation, when it doesn't get it but a firm response rewarded with praise when it complies to you the alpha dog, it becomes comfortable in it's place within the pack, or in our case the pack is the family group.

Example a few years back we were in Norway and the Norwegian guy next to us had a German Shepherd, he said something in Norwegian and the dog laid down to his command, I hadn't a clue what he said and would have looked at him blank if he had said it to me, so look at it from a dogs point of view... They don't speak English so have to learn the commands, just like us learning the times table at school, we kept repeating it till it sunk in, how much harder is it for a dog or any other animal come to think of it.

Humans need training in training a dog which only comes with experience, dogs cotton on a lot quicker than a human in some instances :wink: 

ray.


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## Spiritofherald

*Re: Shame on you.*



4maddogs said:


> Words fail me.
> 
> The sooner those things are made illegal, the better.
> Why on earth anyone would think frightening and hurting a dog into submission was a good idea I really do not know.
> If your dog came from the rescue organisations that I gave my dog from they would be taking it back.


I assume you are referring to the citronella collar? If so then it doesn't harm or scare them but distracts them. It is 100% harmless otherwise I would never have tried it - and it was recommended to me by a police dog trainer when other methods failed.

I do agree the electric shock ones sound barbaric.


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## DTPCHEMICALS

quote Ray:Humans need training in training a dog which only comes with experience, dogs cotton on a lot quicker than a human in some instances 

Most of our dogs have been rescue dogs. We have had 18 I think over 39 years. Three of our current four are rescued. I attended dog training classes with our first dog who would not do a thing for me. It would do anything for lady p.
After the end of term I was invited to teach people to teach their dogs. Very rewarding at times.

Dave p


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## drcotts

As a general rule - and I have a bit of knowlegde of such things..training dogs by inducing fear doesnt work and I must say i tend to agree. Its a bit like the electric shock therapy they used on humans a few ago.
OK distracting them is a good thing and not the same as shocking or spraying citronella oil etc etc

If you want to stop your dog doing things that you dont want it to do then you have to find whats motivating them to do it. Even the lack of doing something like recall is because the dog chooses to do something else. Unless you find out why you may train the dog to come back by putting 500V up its Jacksy but do you think thats right.? And anyway they would probally revert back unless the underlying cause in known. If they dont come back its because they are getting more stimulous by ignoring you and looking at a cat or something.

Simply ignore things that the dog does that you dont like but reinforce things he does that you do like. When the dog does come back when asked give it lots of praise and a treat. do this every time until they do it without thinking. if this is done consistantly its usually a matter of hours before they know whats required.

Just screaming and shouting makes it worse and in fact the dog thinks your joining in. How many times have you seen someone tell their barking yapping dog dog to *shut up*.....repeatedly..and the dog take no notice. The dog thinks that your joining in.

Phill


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## Spacerunner

I've just done something with my 5 month old cross Lab.
She is very strong and pulls like mad when on a lead.

On the internet I found a quote.....'it takes two to pull'!

So I took her out on a lead to try their method. Every time she started to pull, as soon as she put even the tiniest bit of tension on the lead I stood still until she stopped and either sat (she's good at that!) or looked round to see what I was doing.

During an hour's walk/training she walked 60% of the time on a slack lead! Definitely a break through, and due to me finding the cause and removing it!


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## Annsman

There are a few misconceptions on here about these stimulation collars, and to be honest I was just as wrong before I used one. Most seem to come from people who haven't used one or have an interest in other forms of dog training.

They don't, or the good ones in the hands of a responsible person don't, "put 500 volts up it's jacksy! Neither do they cause any lasting damage to the dog. 

The actual collar works like a tens machine. It works off a battery, it gives out a pulse every time you press the button, this lasts for 1/200th of a second. That's about the time it takes to blink. It can't be used continuously for more than 8 seconds. If you follow the instructions before you use it, and I would suggest that anyone spending over £100.00 isn't doing so for a joke so will do just that, then they are not going to use one to deliberately to inflict pain. The idea is that you use the tone alone at first and praise or treat when the dog reacts then if you're lucky, and we weren't, then the dog doesn't need the stimulation sensation.

I know without any shadow of a doubt if we hadn't got one then Lexi would have been either run over, been lost or suffered some serious injury, and been in real pain. Nothing, and I mean nothing, would cause her to stop running in a frenzied and manic way. She had absolutely no concept of her personal safety. Barbed wire, roads, thick thorn bushes or tight places held her back. Some well meaning people suggested tempting her with a toy, chicken, meat treats or just plain old praise. Believe me we tried them all, to no avail.

She is just as loving, probably even more so, and we both enjoy our walks now. I am happy to promote these to anyone having the same problems we had. I am also happy we bought one and will continue to use it for her own safety and both our benefit.


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## 4maddogs

*Re: Shame on you.*



Spiritofherald said:


> 4maddogs said:
> 
> 
> 
> Words fail me.
> 
> The sooner those things are made illegal, the better.
> Why on earth anyone would think frightening and hurting a dog into submission was a good idea I really do not know.
> If your dog came from the rescue organisations that I gave my dog from they would be taking it back.
> 
> 
> 
> I assume you are referring to the citronella collar? If so then it doesn't harm or scare them but distracts them. It is 100% harmless otherwise I would never have tried it - and it was recommended to me by a police dog trainer when other methods failed.
> 
> I do agree the electric shock ones sound barbaric.
Click to expand...

No I mean the shock collars. Or spike collars as well. I agree that the spray collars do no physical harm.


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## 91502

In the right hands for the right dog for the right reasons they are a good training tool. 
I would never recommend people buying and using one themselves.
The problem is a professional one costs nearly £200 but you can now buy a cheap poor quality product from eBay for £20. 
JP


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## drcotts

Spacerunner said:


> I've just done something with my 5 month old cross Lab.
> She is very strong and pulls like mad when on a lead.
> 
> On the internet I found a quote.....'it takes two to pull'!
> 
> So I took her out on a lead to try their method. Every time she started to pull, as soon as she put even the tiniest bit of tension on the lead I stood still until she stopped and either sat (she's good at that!) or looked round to see what I was doing.
> 
> During an hour's walk/training she walked 60% of the time on a slack lead! Definitely a break through, and due to me finding the cause and removing it!


I rest my case
Trian with brain not pain.

You can also try doing a 90deg turn whenever the dog pulls so they are always going in the wrong direction. The dog is pulling because you are inadvertantly asking him/her to. This is usually beacuse they think they are the leader of the pack and unlike the old generals in the war lead from the front. You need to convince here that you are taking over this role and then she wont need to pull..and will probally feel better for it.


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