# Pitches without hook ups - yes or no?



## peedee

I posted the following on the Caravan Clubs>discussion page<

"We are all being encouraged to use less energy. There are schemes to help improve home insulation and to fit solar panels and the power hungry filament light bulb is no longer available, it being replaced by LEDs and low energy bulbs.

But hey what is happening on caravan sites, we have no alternative but to pay for our primary source of energy, electricity, and owners are stuffing their vans with electric appliances as a result. On the other hand there are many caravan owners who have good battery and solar panel systems and do not need or want hook ups all the time.

Should the club not be doing it's bit by offering at least a few discounted, electricity free pitches on each site for those that are increasing prepared to go that extra mile and fit solar panels?"

Whilst I have targeted the CC should all sites not have an obligation to provide these?

peedee


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## bognormike

Hi Peedee

I agree it can be wasteful, and we've all seen the heaters going full blast in awnings :roll: . On most CCC sites there is the option to have a "standard" pitch, on grass with no electric, and we normally use these when on site for up to 2 days in the summer season. This is because - 1) we don't really need the electricity for heating, and can manage quite well without it, 2) why pay around £5 a night for something you don't need! and 3) in the summer period it's nicer parking up on grass than horrible gravel

:roll:


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## rayc

peedee said:


> I posted the following on the Caravan Clubs>discussion page<
> 
> "We are all being encouraged to use less energy. There are schemes to help improve home insulation and to fit solar panels and the power hungry filament light bulb is no longer available, it being replaced by LEDs and low energy bulbs.
> 
> But hey what is happening on caravan sites, we have no alternative but to pay for our primary source of energy, electricity, and owners are stuffing their vans with electric appliances as a result. On the other hand there are many caravan owners who have good battery and solar panel systems and do not need or want hook ups all the time.
> 
> Should the club not be doing it's bit by offering at least a few discounted, electricity free pitches on each site for those that are increasing prepared to go that extra mile and fit solar panels?"
> 
> Whilst I have targeted the CC should all sites not have an obligation to provide these?
> 
> peedee


The CC and other site owners rubbed their hands with glee when they introduced the combined pitch and electric fee under the excuse of complying with EU regulations. The potential income from each pitch was maximumised.
I am sure the CC response will be that they do have some non electric pitches available but of course they will not mention that these pitches are not in the most attractive parts of the site.


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## barryd

I just posted on the CC site. The formatting is all over the place though!

I dont stay on club sites as they are too expensive and regimented but I do stay on CL sites and look for the really basic ones with no EHU for about a fiver.

I agree, why pay for something you dont need?


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## Jented

Hi.
It is supply and demand,some sites were loseing trade because they did not have electric points,another plus is the fact that people with a medical need for power,can go further out into the country side to holiday at the remote CL/CS's.
We had a twin wheel c/van with Alde heating,during one winter rally,several members had to get gas from Ashbourne,me included and i had the genny working overtime,it was very "Power hungry",the plus side?,the pipes ran along under the front beds...... Sheer luxury!.
I think there should be some pitches with just grass or hardish standing,but as c/vans/m/homes become more complex there will be more demand for electric points. My preference is a farm field,tap in the corner,somwhere within 200yds to empty the cassete a view and just Jennifer and sass for company
Ted.


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## Rosbotham

I've not voted, but I'd welcome it if only to stop folk moaning!!! :wink:

CC does have economy pitches on some sites, which come without hookup.

I suspect the answer is a bit analogous to one I come across in my industry, telecoms, though. People moan about having to take voice telephony service and the amount of their line rental, saying they'd just prefer to be able to do broadband only. But most of the cost of the voice service/line rental is actually the cost of the copper to your home...so without voice your broadband would have to go up by that much. So back on EHU, the CC has spent £Xmillion meeting customer demand to have an EHU facility, they need to recover those costs, and the incremental cost of you actually using it is minimal...few kWH = few tens of pence, so the discount you'd get is minimal.


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## peedee

rayc said:


> The CC and other site owners rubbed their hands with glee when they introduced the combined pitch and electric fee under the excuse of complying with EU regulations. The potential income from each pitch was maximumised.


I don't think this is necessarily so, the CC made an operating loss on running its sites in 2008 and 2009. In 2009 this was much larger than in 2008 and it was all put down to the increased cost of site electricty.

I also recently stayed on a CL where the owner apologised that they would have to put up their charges on Jan 1st from £10 to £12 per night due the cost of electric. So I don't think they are rubbing their hands with glee although the provision of hook ups does seem to increase pitch occupancy.

peedee


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## Zepp

I think we should be given the choice on all pitches to have hookup or without hookup or they should fit meters.

We pulled into a CL after ringing them first and explaining what outfit we had . once we pulled into the CL the owner demanded we pay a extra £2 pn because we would use more electric .

I refused to pay the extra £2 pn as he could not tell me why he thought I would use more elec than the caravan parked next to me 

We have 3 solar panels and everything works on 12v apart from the fridge we run it on 240 if we are on hookup.


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## eddievanbitz

Zepp said:


> I think we should be given the choice on all pitches to have hookup or without hookup or they should fit meters.


Why should you? Sites are commercial we live in a democracy use sites that offer the services that you want. Why should a site owner be forced to spend money that they don't need to, to save you spending money you don't need to?

This is an old chestnut and PeeDee and I have happily discussed this a number of times, however, people that don't want electricity are in a minority to those that do.

Having owned a campsite for the last few years I speak from experience.

It is zero degree's today and I guarantee that if the wardens turned the electric off they would be lynched!

I liken it to going into a fish restaurant and telling them that I disagree with their menu and wanted Southern Fried Chicken and arguing with them when told they don't offer that!

We don't like the idea of meters as they are inconvenient for everyone guests as well as our staff

Eddie


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## Oscarmax

The Caravan Club has made it public, their huge electricity bill. they also encouraging us to be greener so why not a choice with or without electric hook ups. After all we are motorhomers not holiday makers?

By the way the electric heater in the awning drying the washing is probably my mate, he does it even in the height of the summer, they insist as they are paying for the facilities they are going to use it


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## barryd

"
I don't think this is necessarily so, the CC made an operating loss on running its sites in 2008 and 2009. In 2009 this was much larger than in 2008 and it was all put down to the increased cost of site electricty.
"

If that was the case then surely they would want to offer more pitches without EHU?


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## rayc

eddievanbitz said:


> Zepp said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think we should be given the choice on all pitches to have hookup or without hookup or they should fit meters.
> 
> 
> 
> Why should you? Sites are commercial we live in a democracy use sites that offer the services that you want. Why should a site owner be forced to spend money that they don't need to, to save you spending money you don't need to?
> 
> This is an old chestnut and PeeDee and I have happily discussed this a number of times, however, people that don't want electricity are in a minority to those that do.
> 
> Having owned a campsite for the last few years I speak from experience.
> 
> It is zero degree's today and I guarantee that if the wardens turned the electric off they would be lynched!
> 
> I liken it to going into a fish restaurant and telling them that I disagree with their menu and wanted Southern Fried Chicken and arguing with them when told they don't offer that!
> 
> We don't like the idea of meters as they are inconvenient for everyone guests as well as our staff
> 
> Eddie
Click to expand...

I agree with all you have said but the CC is a club with subscribing members so it is different to a commercial site such as yours.


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## rayc

barryd said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think this is necessarily so, the CC made an operating loss on running its sites in 2008 and 2009. In 2009 this was much larger than in 2008 and it was all put down to the increased cost of site electricty.
> rayc
> 
> 
> 
> If that was the case then surely they would want to offer more pitches without EHU?
Click to expand...

It was not me who said what you have quoted me as saying.


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## barryd

rayc said:


> barryd said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rayc said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think this is necessarily so, the CC made an operating loss on running its sites in 2008 and 2009. In 2009 this was much larger than in 2008 and it was all put down to the increased cost of site electricty.
> rayc
> 
> 
> 
> If that was the case then surely they would want to offer more pitches without EHU?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It was not me who said what you have quoted me as saying.
Click to expand...

  Oops sorry. Dont know what I did there. Took your name off.


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## drcotts

I voted yes. Mind you that doesnt mean i want to be pushed to the corner of a muddy field.

Phill


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## patp

Meters must surely be the way to go.
There for those that want them and those that don't (like me) can sit and feel smug :wink: .

I was horrified at the C&CC's idea of the price for a patch of grass, sorry I mean Standard Pitch. As we use CL/S's mostly I assumed there would not be much difference in price! 
While we are on the subject of metering why don't they also offer a token system for the shower blocks as we never use those either?


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## eddievanbitz

patp said:


> Meters must surely be the way to go.
> There for those that want them and those that don't (like me) can sit and feel smug :wink: .
> 
> I was horrified at the C&CC's idea of the price for a patch of grass, sorry I mean Standard Pitch. As we use CL/S's mostly I assumed there would not be much difference in price!
> While we are on the subject of metering why don't they also offer a token system for the shower blocks as we never use those either?


Well so long as we are talking about Club Sites I have no opinion.

However, how do you propose to get the club to make a massive financial investment when there is no real support from the members?

Tokens for showers are always wrong. People jam foreign coins in a jam them up inconveniencing non scumbags and costing the club money to fix. Bigger scumbags think that there is money in them and rip them off the walls, again causing inconvenience and costing money to repair.

So at best you can have a shower if you have a token, and can't it you don't have a token so not as convenient as have a shower 24/7 when you want one!

All these things are backward steps.

Eddie


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## SpeedyDux

I would welcome a discounted pitch fee for low users of mains electricity like me. I have just 1 mains socket and only need to power a fridge, battery charger and 2 small fluorescent lights (and for a few minutes, the Duxette's hair dryer). No electricity required for hot water boiler or space heating (we use the Eberspacher diesel-fired jobby for that). 

I prefer a pitch with hook-up but I only need 5 or 6 amps. On the other hand I saw in a recent CC Magazine a caravan with 13 mains sockets  . Wow. How can they use them all without tripping the supply to themselves and their neighbours? This is getting silly. What next, 60 amp supply to each pitch for the caravanners' use?

Come on CC, help the caravanners be more "green". 

SD


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## peedee

eddievanbitz said:


> This is an old chestnut and PeeDee and I have happily discussed this a number of times, however, people that don't want electricity are in a minority to those that do.
> Eddie


But circumstances are changing Eddie. Inclusive electricity is driving up its use and energy has become more expensive. Pitch prices are rising to prevent owners from making losses, customers don't want that either. Meters are clearly a pain in the butt for everyone and although there are some sites equipped, I am not supportive of this approach.

It would seem the only other approach is to limit power available as on many continental sites, but there again you would have dissatisfied customers and countless tripping of breakers which, unless you let the customer have access, will have to be reset. There has been and always will be demand for pitches without electricity, especially from motorhome owners who tend not to stay on a site very long, so why not offer this to encourage less overall electricity use?

The law was changed to prevent resale of electricity. There is no law which says you have to provide it and I cannot imagine it would be financial suicide to disconnect electricity from a small percentage of pitches on each site ! There would be nothing to stop owners putting the fuses back in at any time!

peedee


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## eddievanbitz

I would welcome a reduction on sites with no play park as I don't need them.

I would like to see a reduction on sites if I don't take any pets.

Because I normally pay in advance, I don't need to see the warden in the office, so like with self check in airports, this would save money.

I would like a reduction for paying with cash or a debit card as this saves the merchant fee

I have a torch so don't need security lights or dusk to dawn lights

My van holds 40 gallons of black waste (poo) and I have emptying facilities at home so i definitely don't need chemical waste facities

I hold 50 gallons of fresh water so I don't need taps around the place.

I have satellite TV so I don't need cable TV

Or, I can look at a site, in the area I wish to go, decide if the overall price is fair and go! I can use what I need, and ignore the stuff that I don't want to use (this trip!)

Eddie


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## The-Cookies

should have the option to have hook up or not, most big cc sites have no option, but then some post notices telling you how green they are.

like the new cc at bridlington , solar panels, low wattage lighting,waste water recycling.

even better if there was an option to have different amp supply say 6, 10, and 16.

if 16amp is paid for most will think, i paid for it may as well make use of it even if i don't need to.

John


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## bognormike

:lol: :lol: I would ban the use of those little table lamps in the front windows of caravans - that would save the CC millions!

now back on topic 8)


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## Grizzly

Go to Walton-on-Thames; some of the best pitches on site are non-electric !

However, we have been told, on 2 separate club sites, that if they allow non-electric users on electric pitches then a very high percentage of them wait until the wardens are off duty and plug in their EHU lead.
It is not easy to police and make sure that only those who have paid are using electricity. I'm sure that the vast majority of wardens we've met would hate doing that.

It's easier- as at Walton- to separate the electric and non-electric pitches but that will mean complaints because, at busy periods, they'll almost certainly not be able to get it right and some people will have to go non-electric or go home. 

THE CC and C&CC, once again, are damned if they do and damned if they don't !

G


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## barryd

Actually I have noticed when looking at some sites abroad they somtimes offer different rates of EHU such as 3 amps, 6amps, 10 amps etc with 3 being the cheapest.

Maybe that is an option but then I assume it involves fitting something expensive to regulate it to a particular pitch?

Certainly lowering the ampage to 6 amps or even 3 would bring costs down. I dont see why anyone needs more than 6 really anyway. At least that way people would be greener as they would have to be and wouldnt be as wasteful with electricity.


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## rayc

barryd said:


> Actually .
> 
> Maybe that is an option but then I assume it involves fitting something expensive to regulate it to a particular pitch?


Not the ones I have used. You select the amperage and a site worker comes along to the pitch and fits the appropriate size MCB to the electricity box.


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## H1-GBV

Arrange for all pitches to have EHU with cabling designed for maximum use but without a fuse. "Rent" the desired fuse at an appropriate rate (£1 = 3A, £2 = 6A etc) which is locked in place by the warden when you pitch.

Simples - Gordon


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## Zepp

We stayed on a CL the owner was complaining how much electricity campers were using .

She wanted the same profit in the winter as she made in the summer . she used to charge £12 a night and every time we went is was full.

She put the price up to £15 a night and £18 night for RVs now she is empty all the time . 


Another CL we stayed on charged £10 a night in the summer and £12 a night in the winter but the price always went back down to £10 in the summer . I don’t have a problem with owners charging more in the winter for electricity but they should not use the cost of electric in the summer to make more profit . 

Most of the sites in Europe give you the option to have a pitch with or without electric , some have meters and some just lock the electric box 

I would of thought if electric is so high they would save money or do they just want to earn more in the summer charging for electric that campers don’t use , then complain in the winter when they do use the electric .


One site in Cornwall last year had a notice up asking campers to please use there gas heating but were still charging for electric.


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## peedee

Grizzly said:


> However, we have been told, on 2 separate club sites, that if they allow non-electric users on electric pitches then a very high percentage of them wait until the wardens are off duty and plug in their EHU lead.
> G


I have no doubt this would be the case, I have seen a caravan on a club site use two outlets, one for the awning and one for the van.

The simple answer is to remove the fuses or breakers. In the case of the CC, outlets are locked, you cannot get at the breakers so it shouldn't be too difficult to just switch them off.

peedee


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## jedi

Just voted and read through comments. 65% would like more no ehu pitches. Apparently that makes us moaners and unreasonable  

I left the Caravan Club and joined Camping and Caravanning Club as they offered me some choice.

My van is fairly modern ( 10 years old :lol: ) and runs quite happily for several days on batteries. Sometimes I want electric so choose hook-up.

I generally go abroad where choice is more acceptable. What does amaze me more and more on MHF is how intolerant people are becoming to other's views - it's not as friendly a site as it used to be. Even been thinking of moving to MotorhomeFun  

Seriously, though, I wouldn't have thought people could get so heated (gas only) about a basic camping issue. Vote with your feet - use sites that allow you to have ehu free pitches if that's what YOU want and use sites that insist you have hook-up if that's what YOU want - simples  

Happy camping whatever you decide.

Jed


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## jedi

jedi said:


> moving to fun


I'm sure I didn't write that. Were my actual words censored? :?


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## dragonflyer

*Electric hook ups*

Regretfully I have to report that we have been the victim of someone who did not wish to pay for electricity. Returning late to a Caravan Club site to find that that our pitch electric post was being utilised by another camper who was not pleased at our return. He was very grudging in removing his cable.

We would not just unhook as we are more polite than that.

On a German stellplatz we were invited to hook up by a departing M/H to benefit from the remaining electricity on the coin operated post. We were also offered the opportunity to take water that was not needed.

Metered electricity on camp sites is very inconvenient as we also discovered in Germany. Finding someone to unlock the box and calculate the charge delayed us several hours.

We happily camp for long weekends on school fields, etc for kite festivals without facilities. A hook up does extend the gas supply which we find more difficult to replace as the 'light' cylinders have limited availability (a 40 mile journey from home) unlike standard ones which can be purchased from a nearby store.

Joyce


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## jedi

*Re: Electric hook ups*



dragonflyer said:


> Regretfully I have to report that we have been the victim of someone who did not wish to pay for electricity. Returning late to a Caravan Club site to find that that our pitch electric post was being utilised by another camper who was not pleased at our return. He was very grudging in removing his cable.
> Joyce


Please do not confuse people who do not wish to use ehu with people who dishonestly try to aquire it - a completely different issue.

I am pleased you like using hook-ups. I too on occasions choose to connect to preserve gas supplies when these are restricted. But I have absolutely no need for electricity on many other occasions.

If I do not want to use hook-up it does not imply that I am too mean or dishonest. Simply personal choice.

Jed


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## ThursdaysChild

A little late in the discussion, but I am confused over the " resale " of electricity regulations. Surely, metering and charging for what has been used is " resale " ? Or is it to do with not charging the customer more than the actual cost from the grid ?

Any Linemen out there ?


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## barryd

ThursdaysChild said:


> A little late in the discussion, but I am confused over the " resale " of electricity regulations. Surely, metering and charging for what has been used is " resale " ? Or is it to do with not charging the customer more than the actual cost from the grid ?
> 
> Any Linemen out there ?


I think your not allowed to sell it on at a profit although how that works I really dont know. So if you put meters in I guess you would have to charge the exact rate that your paying for it so there is no incentive for a site owner to put a meter in. If he just charges £12 for a pitch with EHU who is to say how much he is really charging for electricity. If the same site / CL didnt have EHU it might only be £7 so in effect he is charging £5 a night for EHU which I would assume he is making a profit on.

I have used the coin meters on German Stellplatz and I think they are pretty good. 50 cents seems to last a long time and often people feed them so you nearly always find one thats live! I carry a little tester to find the live ones and to check they are earthed properly which of course in Germany they always are.


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## Rosbotham

barryd said:


> I have used the coin meters on German Stellplatz and I think they are pretty good. 50 cents seems to last a long time and often people feed them so you nearly always find one thats live! I carry a little tester to find the live ones and to check they are earthed properly which of course in Germany they always are.


But you're paying for the hookup either way though Barry, that's what seems to be missing from this whole debate.

If we accept that prices are in any way cost related (dodgy because it'll be what the market will put up with), then the cost of a hookup vs non-hookup pitch is the incremental usage of KWH + cost of the infrastructure to get a *lot* of power to a field (*) + maintenance costs, PAT testing, liability insurance for an outdoor power supply etc. Eddie is probably best informed to comment, but I'd wager that the incremental KWH of electricity directly used is at the minor end of the spectrum versus the total cost of provision.

So if a campsite owner moves to using a metered supply, all of the fixed costs stay the same (perhaps marginal decrease in capacity required on the inbound trunk), they can't be recovered in the metered pricing, so must be incorporated into the pitch fee.

Likewise in the case of CC, there may be an interesting debate in the case of new sites and extra pitches being squeezed into existing ones. But for most sites, the kit's already deployed and somebody needs to be paying for the amortisation of the capex of deploying it, and maintenance. A motorhomer not connecting to a supply will reduce the metered kWH...perhaps a couple of quid a night based on 10-15p/kWH, but won't make a dent on these other costs.

For me the whole debate is a bit like whether the price of toilets/showers should be included in a pitch fee, or if there should be coin slot on the door...

_(*) think about it...100 pitch CC site @16amp, e.g. 66% load factor = 250KW supply unless my maths are wrong, which is the equivalent of a small housing estate._


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## sallytrafic

Surely this debate is about whether we want hook ups or not. 

It looks like there is a majority who say not.


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## Grizzly

sallytrafic said:


> It looks like there is a majority who say not.


Are there any like us who are not fussed in high summer but prefer a hook up on long, sun-less winter days ?

I would support one of the mechanisms mentioned earlier for ensuring that only those who have paid can access the supply but I would not support more pitches being provided with no possibility of a hook up at all.

G


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## Gary1944

Hi all, as an ex Warden for the CC the comments on this discussion have given me some chuckles and brought some memories back. As we started with the club in 2000 we went through the period of change from charging for EHU to it being included in site fees we saw this changeover from the other side. One of the jobs we had in 1st year was checking who was using electrics and not paying, which meant going around in the evening checking if they had sneaked the cable in after the office had closed. Yes, you guessed it. Quite a few had.

Moving forward in time I have had many people tell me the trip had failed and they "had nothing on". After explaining that the trip is a switch and will only trip out through overload or an earth fault, we would re-set the trip and then wait for the next call out. This happened so frequently that I made up a lead to fit between the bollard and lead to check the amps used. I had this for a number of years but never had to use it as people suddenly remembered all the other things they were using!!

On a more serious note my last site had real problems coping with the electricity demands from the hook ups and would regularly trip out large areas of the site, especially in the evening. I was delighted when the club had the power supply and cabling upgraded, at a cost of £150,000. Glad I wasn't paying the bill.

Please have some sympathy for the Wardens and the CC, we tried really hard to give our customers what they wanted.

Gary


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## barryd

I can't beleive people have the cheek to hook up without paying for it! Don't these people have any shame? It's not like it's a fortune.

I like a freebee as much as anyone but I can't abide dishonesty. They should have a name and shame page in the cc mag or c&cc now that would be a laugh


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## peedee

Thanks for your input Garry. I'm surprised at £150K to upgrade the site supply that they did not consider putting meters on each pitch. For £150K you can buy an awful lot of meters and by the accounts of those that have done so it halves consumption. I suspect it would not meet the approval of customers?

peedee


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## rogerblack

sallytrafic said:


> Surely this debate is about whether we want hook ups or not. It looks like there is a majority who say not.


Are you looking at a different survey? Current figure is 61% want MORE pitches with ehu and it's possible to assume some of the nos and don't knows may still want to keep the existing number . . . or am I misreading this somehow?


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## Zebedee

Those sad old bloodshot eyes are failing you again Roger!! 

Check the wording of the poll.

62% want *more *pitches *without *hookups . . . i.e. less hookups required.

The wording is rather confusing, but I think the nays have it!!  

_(I wonder how many have voted contrary to how they intended? :roll: )_

Dave


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## coppo

Zebedee said:


> Those sad old bloodshot eyes are failing you again Roger!!
> 
> Check the wording of the poll.
> 
> 62% want *more *pitches *without *hookups . . . i.e. less hookups required.
> 
> The wording is rather confusing, but I think the nays have it!!
> 
> _(I wonder how many have voted contrary to how they intended? :roll: )_
> 
> Dave


None, I think its just Roger :lol:

We use sites without EHU all year round and thats as fulltimers. Whats saddens me is that on quite a few of the lovely little quiet CLS's we go on, when speaking to the owners they have plans to introduce EHU, in some cases they already have and the price doubles accordingly.

In all the sites we have stayed on so far this winter we have been the only ones there. 8)

Such bliss.

Paul.


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## Zebedee

Hi Paul

Interestingly - when we went to Ireland a couple of years ago we were initially very irritated by the extra charges for everything additional to the basic pitch.

Then we reconsidered and thought it wasn't a bad idea, since it allowed you to pay only for what you wanted.

Then we looked at the prices most of the campsites were charging for both basic pitch and sundry extras . . . and decided it was a neat way of printing money for the owners.

It's just a thought, but while the prices are "all in" the clubs can only get away with hiking them so far before members begin to complain in earnest. If there was a basic "pitch only" price, with extras for hot water, showers, fresh water fill, etc., I am inclined to think the total cost of what most people need would soon be a lot higher than the current "all inclusive" charge.

Don't know - but cynicism (or should that be "realism"?) and past experience suggests it could easily happen that way.

Dave


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## barryd

I Agree with Paul about the CL sites. I love the ones that have nothing but a view and cost a few quid.

Worryingly the cc magazine keeps putting in those articles from Cl owners and visitors who keep blabbing on about how important ehu is. 

Yes there are times when it is useful but not for us when touring. If you move on every few days it you don't need it


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## rogerblack

Zebedee said:


> Those sad old bloodshot eyes are failing you again Roger!!
> 
> Check the wording of the poll.
> 
> 62% want *more *pitches *without *hookups . . . i.e. less hookups required.
> 
> The wording is rather confusing, but I think the nays have it!!
> 
> _(I wonder how many have voted contrary to how they intended? :roll: )_
> 
> Dave


Ahh - you are right and I am wrong  
- now there's a rare admission for you!
However, regarding your further comments on voting contrary to intention - ME FOR ONE! :roll:
Who worded the questions - not wee Alex Salmond by any chance?
If I'm the only one who should have gone to Specsavers, fair enough - however if others were caught out then this would seem to cast doubt on the poll's validity . . .


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## jedi

Would you welcome the introduction of more pitches without hook ups? 

yes, no or don't care


Seems pretty clear to me.


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## Grizzly

barryd said:


> Yes there are times when it is useful but not for us when touring. If you move on every few days it you don't need it


But Barry; we're motorhomers and, even now, I suspect are in the minority when it comes to campers. Most caravanners want- even require- a hook up and still have to be catered for. That's what many CL/CS owners look at. They don't want to discourage caravanners.

When most of us on here started caravanning there was no option; caravans were not made to be hooked up to the mains and it was gas lighting and cooking or nothing. Nowadays there are caravans ( and I believe a few motorhomes ?) that have no gas option at all and *must *use a hook up.

G


----------



## barryd

A very good point Grizzly. Most visitors to Cl sites do seem to be tuggers although I have seen a fair few on none ehu sites with solar power who seem quite happy.


----------



## Zebedee

Grizzly said:


> Nowadays there are caravans ( and I believe a few motorhomes ?) that have no gas option at all and *must *use a hook up. G


Quite correct Grizz - but would you buy one? 

Has to be one of the daftest ideas yet. Designing a motorhome with no gas is like selling a car with no fuel tank!!! 8O

I think you are right about hookup provision. As motorhomers we tend sometimes to forget about caravanners, and I guess few of them would regularly spend time off-hookup . . . they would probably be motorhomers if they did.

Dave


----------



## Gary1944

Hi Peedee, 
THe CC trialled metering of hook ups on sites over 12 years ago, but the computer controlling the system had many hiccups. Maybe today that would be less of a problem with more reliable and adaptable systems. However having tried it I doubt they would go back to that system as they probably think the present system works OK. My experience is that the great majority of people staying on club sites want the easiest way out, and many people don't even have batteries in their vans, relying on the mains hook-up totally. 

I remember being called from my bed by a member ( caravanner admittedly ) at 11pm demanding I re-set his electricity! He wanted to watch TV and said I would also be responsible for all the food in his fridge going off overnight. He had never used the fridge on gas, nor his heating system. Needless to say his food was still OK in the morning, and he did grudgingly apologise for getting me out of bed.

Hey ho, the trials and tribulations of a Warden!
Gary


----------



## eddievanbitz

peedee said:


> eddievanbitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is an old chestnut and PeeDee and I have happily discussed this a number of times, however, people that don't want electricity are in a minority to those that do.
> Eddie
> 
> 
> 
> But circumstances are changing Eddie. Inclusive electricity is driving up its use and energy has become more expensive. Pitch prices are rising to prevent owners from making losses, customers don't want that either. Meters are clearly a pain in the butt for everyone and although there are some sites equipped, I am not supportive of this approach.
> 
> It would seem the only other approach is to limit power available as on many continental sites, but there again you would have dissatisfied customers and countless tripping of breakers which, unless you let the customer have access, will have to be reset. There has been and always will be demand for pitches without electricity, especially from motorhome owners who tend not to stay on a site very long, so why not offer this to encourage less overall electricity use?
> 
> The law was changed to prevent resale of electricity. There is no law which says you have to provide it and I cannot imagine it would be financial suicide to disconnect electricity from a small percentage of pitches on each site ! There would be nothing to stop owners putting the fuses back in at any time!
> 
> peedee
Click to expand...

It is not that simple. We are not allowed to resell at a profit. That is the law. Not intended to be levelled at us but housing landlords but the law is there.

So, if we charge £10 for non hook up pitches and £12 for hook up pitches we are charging £2 for hook up no argument.

We cannot then prove without meters how much electricity you have used, if you have used less say £1 and we charge you £2 we have just broken the law.

Meters? Sounds grand! Some one has to walk around in the rain and check them! OK spend loads to satisfy a tiny percentage of the market, and have the meters in the office!.

Can I pay now as we need to leave early in the morning before the office opens? What about the electric? If you pay tonight do you need electricity tonight and in the morning? How do you account for that?

It is not that we haven't thought about it! We have seem people unplugging each other and knicking electric abroad, we have had our token meters ripped of the wall in the laundrette twice and is always got foreign coins and dodgy tokens inside from "decent law abiding people :roll

People like to be able to roll up after hours, see their name and their pitch number on a board and go straight to their pitch plug in and relax. This is the way that the majority of people want this to work.

I am a business man after all and if I thought that I was loosing business by running the site the way the 99% of all other sites are run, I would look to change it.

Support the sites that offer the services that you want. I would never go to a naturist site and demand that the management tell everyone to put their cloths on, yet it feels to me that this is what is being asked and expected here.

Eddie


----------



## coppo

Gary1944 said:


> Hi Peedee,
> THe CC trialled metering of hook ups on sites over 12 years ago, but the computer controlling the system had many hiccups. Maybe today that would be less of a problem with more reliable and adaptable systems. However having tried it I doubt they would go back to that system as they probably think the present system works OK. My experience is that the great majority of people staying on club sites want the easiest way out, and many people don't even have batteries in their vans, relying on the mains hook-up totally.
> 
> I remember being called from my bed by a member ( caravanner admittedly ) at 11pm demanding I re-set his electricity! He wanted to watch TV and said I would also be responsible for all the food in his fridge going off overnight. He had never used the fridge on gas, nor his heating system. Needless to say his food was still OK in the morning, and he did grudgingly apologise for getting me out of bed.
> 
> Hey ho, the trials and tribulations of a Warden!
> Gary


 :lol: :lol:

You must have the patience of a saint Gary.

You learn something every day, some folk don't even have batteries, never used gas for heating or the fridge even though its an option.

Amazing, i,m not knocking it by the way, each to his own.

Paul.


----------



## tonyt

A CS I stayed on last year had a coin operated meter. Seemed to work fine. Take it or leave it.


----------



## eddievanbitz

A couple of hundred people in a poll means nothing as the majority of people that read this thread either have an interest (like me) or have in inkling that perhaps they would like no hook up so I am afraid the information is skewed.

HOWEVER! to be fair and in the interests of truth and transparency I will spend some time in a fortnight looking around at all of the caravans and motorhomes, at Excel while I am stuck there for a week and see how many are built without the pesky electrical stuff in to get a true picture of how many people want a van without electricity :lol:

Eddie


----------



## Grizzly

coppo said:


> You learn something every day, some folk don't even have batteries, never used gas for heating or the fridge even though its an option.
> 
> Amazing, i,m not knocking it by the way, each to his own.


Herein lies the big difference between a caravanner and a motorhomer.

Motorhomers prefer to be able to be self-contained and to move on frequently. Caravanners put down roots for longer periods and use their caravan like holiday cottages so need an electric hook up. There's no need for them to have or have to service a leisure battery or to have the hassle of hefting gas bottles around if this is the case.

G


----------



## coppo

Grizzly said:


> coppo said:
> 
> 
> 
> You learn something every day, some folk don't even have batteries, never used gas for heating or the fridge even though its an option.
> 
> Amazing, i,m not knocking it by the way, each to his own.
> 
> 
> 
> Herein lies the big difference between a caravanner and a motorhomer.
> 
> Motorhomers prefer to be able to be self-contained and to move on frequently. Caravanners put down roots for longer periods and use their caravan like holiday cottages so need an electric hook up. There's no need for them to have or have to service a leisure battery or to have the hassle of hefting gas bottles around if this is the case.
> 
> G
Click to expand...

Yes Grizzly but I still thought all caravans would have had at least 1 leisure battery though, in case of power cuts, tripping EHU etc and not been able to restore power for some other fault.

As I said, you learn something new all the time.

Paul.


----------



## eddievanbitz

tonyt said:


> A CS I stayed on last year had a coin operated meter. Seemed to work fine. Take it or leave it.


That is the problem the number of people that take it! The meter full of coins that it!

Eddie


----------



## Grizzly

coppo said:


> Yes Grizzly but I still thought all caravans would have had at least 1 leisure battery though, in case of power cuts, tripping EHU etc and not been able to restore power for some other fault.
> .


We had 3 caravans before going to a motorhome and not one of them had a leisure battery. We used gas lighting for the first two and then, luxury of luxuries, bought a fluorescent light, mounted it on a wooden batten and ran it off the car battery in the third van. What a difference not to have to replace at least one gas mantle per trip.

Very few of the small sites that we used had electric hook ups available anyway but, watching the club magazines, there is nearly always at least one CL/CS installing it in each issue nowadays. Clearly their research tells them it is a good idea and I doubt we,as motorhomers, would be able to make any difference to that opinion.

G


----------



## peedee

> It is not that simple. We are not allowed to resell at a profit. That is the law. Not intended to be levelled at us but housing landlords but the law is there.
> 
> So, if we charge £10 for non hook up pitches and £12 for hook up pitches we are charging £2 for hook up no argument.
> 
> We cannot then prove without meters how much electricity you have used, if you have used less say £1 and we charge you £2 we have just broken the law.


Eddie,
As there is no evidence of use I don't see the problem. This is how it used to be done, you either accepted the arbitrary charge for hook up or you used a pitch without which of course you can still do on many sites and it doesn't cause a problem.

I will be using a site this year for which if you want electricity you have to buy a swipe card, initially for £2, there after top ups are £2 a time. Last time I stayed there I didn't bother.

So it can be done. I'll take a clip on meter with me to make sure the law is not being broken. :wink:

peedee


----------



## peedee

Grizzly said:


> watching the club magazines, there is nearly always at least one CL/CS installing it in each issue nowadays. Clearly their research tells them it is a good idea and I doubt we,as motorhomers, would be able to make any difference to that opinion.
> G


Its pretty obvious this is the case if you try and get on a CL which has hookups and hard standings. The pitch occupancy is far higher than without electrics. The clubs also advises new CL/CS owners that they will attract more customers if they have hook ups. I think your right that motorhome owners will not make a difference. I do wonder though if rising energy costs will eventually force a change. Site pitch costs are becoming too expensive and I think more and more are turning towards the no frills sites like the CLs and CSs as a result.

peedee


----------



## Zepp

We stayed on a Site / Stellplatz on the mosel for 7 nights .

The owner came along and opened the elec box and plugged you in then he locked the box no big deal , we used 3 euro’s worth of electricity in a week on a meter.

So if a UK site is charging £2 to £3 per day for elec with the pitch fee that’s a big mark up on the power we use . 

If people start stealing electricity ring the police or throw them off the site .


----------



## jedi

Hi Peedee,

Just wanted to be the thousandth person to thank you :lol: 

Jed


----------



## coppo

peedee said:


> Grizzly said:
> 
> 
> 
> watching the club magazines, there is nearly always at least one CL/CS installing it in each issue nowadays. Clearly their research tells them it is a good idea and I doubt we,as motorhomers, would be able to make any difference to that opinion.
> G
> 
> 
> 
> I do wonder though if rising energy costs will eventually force a change. Site pitch costs are becoming too expensive and I think more and more are turning towards the no frills sites like the CLs and CSs as a result.
> 
> peedee
Click to expand...

Agree totally.

And with the price of solar panels now so much cheaper this will also have a bearing.

Paul.


----------



## eddievanbitz

peedee said:


> It is not that simple. We are not allowed to resell at a profit. That is the law. Not intended to be levelled at us but housing landlords but the law is there.
> 
> So, if we charge £10 for non hook up pitches and £12 for hook up pitches we are charging £2 for hook up no argument.
> 
> We cannot then prove without meters how much electricity you have used, if you have used less say £1 and we charge you £2 we have just broken the law.
> 
> 
> 
> Eddie,
> As there is no evidence of use I don't see the problem. This is how it used to be done, you either accepted the arbitrary charge for hook up or you used a pitch without which of course you can still do on many sites and it doesn't cause a problem.
> 
> I will be using a site this year for which if you want electricity you have to buy a swipe card, initially for £2, there after top ups are £2 a time. Last time I stayed there I didn't bother.
> 
> So it can be done. I'll take a clip on meter with me to make sure the law is not being broken. :wink:
> 
> peedee
Click to expand...

But there is no market for it so no one will invest the money needed to do these sorts of things.

What happens when the office is closed and some one turns up and wants electricity? where do they get the swipe card. Tell someone that is leaving in an hour that they need to pay another £2 to top up their swipe card or go without electricity.

All the proposals are inconvenient to the vast majority of our customers who want hook up.

We charge £14 a night for a great site with everything included even free WiFi all I say would say to anyone that doesn't want to stay with us because we include electric is that you can drive five miles down the road, stay at the Taunton services for £18.00 a night and you will not be given electric, WiFi, water or have access to clean toilets and showers. Vote with your feet!

We do listen and try though, you may remember when we first opened I thought that it fair to charge for A framed cars. in 2007 I started towing behind my motorhome and realised that charging for the car was daft so we scrapped it at Cornish Farm!

Eddie


----------



## barryd

I wonder with new technology what the cost would be for putting in computerised meters in the Campsite Office. A few years ago before I had a motorhome I had a Motor Cruiser on Windermere, EHU was on a meter and I just paid my account when asked to. They had a central computer that told them how much I had used and it just printed a bill. 

Some of the boats in there were 60ft million pound yachts and would clearly run up more of a bill than a 25ft sports cruiser but it was dead simple. You just paid for what you used and it never seemed any hassle.

Could something like this not be adapted? Presumably when you check out you just pay for what you have used. Suits me as I hardly use anything but I gather some people like to heat up awnings and all sorts. Doesnt seem fair to me.

I reckon if you were paying on usage people would be a lot more careful!


----------



## sallytrafic

I agree with penquin many of us hookup in winter.

However all that changes for me when on hookup is that I switch the fridge to gas, use our 600W oil filled radiator and the 500W electric kettle. I still use solar to charge the battery (my charger spends most of the time switched off) and diesel heating when necessary at the beginning and end of every day to make getting dressed and undressed more comfortable.

Clearly for me a metered outlet would be a saving over when I am paying £3 or £3.75 for an 'electric' pitch. *However am clearly prepared to pay extra to get 4 seasons camping.* EHU pitches in the C&CC normally have extra features as well, like not being on the softest piece of mud for miles around. 

On the other three seasons I am mostly looking for non-ehu pitches. If I have to use a ehu pitch I balance the inconvenience of getting cabled up to the small saving on gas. In my capacity as an Alan Rogers's site assessor I am often given a free fully serviced pitch, many times last year the cable was not deployed.

One of the reasons I left the CC was the issue of halogen heated awnings when they couldn't give me a non ehu pitch.

My 4 nights camping so far this year was all at below zero night time temperatures and the biggest pain was trying to bend frozen cable back into its stowage.


----------



## peedee

Time is a great healer Eddie, people have got used to having near enough as much electricity as they like without having to apparently pay for it! However we all pay for it in increased pitch charges. The Caravan Club has in the past admitted putting in any form of metering would now result in uproar from its members.

I have been trying to research the cost of metering and like Barryd I think technology has moved on, costs have reduced and I don't think the capital outlay is as great as some people make out. If that results in reduced costs which can be passed on to the customer at no inconvenience to the site owner then surely that is the way to go? The trouble is, like I said, everyone is now used to an inclusive price and however little capital outlay is required it may be difficult, but not impossible, to claw back? It would only take an organisation like the CC to do it and the vast majority would have to follow.

As an aside, how about >these< There must be a way of locking them in so they could not be bypassed. I also came across a post from a CL owner who has fitted meters. Currently he is only using them for his own purposes to obtain an average electricity consumption per pitch.

Ah, so common sense prevailed, glad to read it. £14 is a very good price, some CLs are charging that. The service area down the road obviously does not want overnighters. I haven't forgot our debate over towed cars and the fact you offered me a free night  Its immaterial though as when I can get organised I will be coming to see you to have an alarm fitted. You can give me 15 percent discount instead :lol:

peedee


----------



## wakk44

An interesting debate and the different points of view have been expressed quite eloquently 

Unsurprisingly nearly 60% welcome the introduction of more non electric pitches,quite understandable for a motorhome site.

Camp site owners are primarily driven by commercial concerns and will provide hook ups if there is a significant demand for them and consequently attract more custom.

I think Grizzly hits the nail on the head with the comparison between motorhomers and touring caravans..............



Grizzly said:


> ............
> Herein lies the big difference between a caravanner and a motorhomer.
> Motorhomers prefer to be able to be self-contained and to move on frequently. Caravanners put down roots for longer periods and use their caravan like holiday cottages so need an electric hook up.......
> G


The ratio of caravans to motorhomes in the UK is 5:1 ncc stats
so it is obvious that site owners are going to listen more and cater for tuggers,who as Grizzly succinctly explains above rely more on ehu.

Personally I have fitted solar panels and a large leisure battery bank as I like the idea of electrical independence and not being be reliant on an ehu.


----------



## barryd

peedee said:


> The Caravan Club has in the past admitted putting in any form of metering would now result in uproar from its members.


Tough! If they did it people would still go. From what I can gather their sites are popular. So much so there are endless posts about not being able to get a pitch. It wouldnt be popular because people would be worried they would spend a fortune racking up huge bills. Well perhaps this would educate them to use just what they need rather than the selfish attitude of "Ive paid for it, Im going to use it".

Its got to be better for the environment as well. Unless, secretly these sites have worked out what their base price for a pitch is and are secretly making a profit on EHU.


----------



## brianamelia

*reply*

Personally for me there is nothing like getting away for the weekend after a hard week at work arriving on site, sign in with no fuss, park up ,plug in, and relax.I always remember the times visting America and eating out you order a meal and then are offered every extra in the book by the time its explained to you you could have finished your meal. Not for me simple is better.
Bri


----------



## eddievanbitz

peedee said:


> Time is a great healer Eddie, people have got used to having near enough as much electricity as they like without having to apparently pay for it! However we all pay for it in increased pitch charges. The Caravan Club has in the past admitted putting in any form of metering would now result in uproar from its members.
> 
> I have been trying to research the cost of metering and like Barryd I think technology has moved on, costs have reduced and I don't think the capital outlay is as great as some people make out. If that results in reduced costs which can be passed on to the customer at no inconvenience to the site owner then surely that is the way to go? The trouble is, like I said, everyone is now used to an inclusive price and however little capital outlay is required it may be difficult, but not impossible, to claw back? It would only take an organisation like the CC to do it and the vast majority would have to follow.
> 
> As an aside, how about >these< There must be a way of locking them in so they could not be bypassed. I also came across a post from a CL owner who has fitted meters. Currently he is only using them for his own purposes to obtain an average electricity consumption per pitch.
> 
> Ah, so common sense prevailed, glad to read it. £14 is a very good price, some CLs are charging that. The service area down the road obviously does not want overnighters. I haven't forgot our debate over towed cars and the fact you offered me a free night  Its immaterial though as when I can get organised I will be coming to see you to have an alarm fitted. You can give me 15 percent discount instead :lol:
> 
> peedee


Lol you get a free night with the Strikeback installation as well :lol:

We have meter maids on site, we also have had the nicked, so you lock them in so people drive off and ripp the wires out!

When you come down I promise I will walk around the site with you and discuss the pro's and con's of any ideas that you may have

Regards

Eddie


----------



## Zebedee

I can never understand why folk are happy to pay £50,000 for a motorhome _(and that's not expensive these days! Our little shoe-box costs more than that new!! :roll: )_ then fret and worry if they can't find free Aire or have to pay a couple of quid for the leccy!!! :roll: :roll:

Since there are so many who do this, those same people may well be the ones who hammer down the motorway at 70 or 80mph, and increase their fuel consumption by about a third!

I can't see the logic of wasting probably ten quid or more in fuel on a needlessly high speed journey, then worrying about a couple of quid for EHU or a few Euros for an Aire?

Does this qualify me for the G.O.M Club? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dave


----------



## peedee

> I can never understand why folk are happy to pay £50,000 for a motorhome (and that's not expensive these days! Our little shoe-box costs more than that new!! ) then fret and worry if they can't find free Aire or have to pay a couple of quid for the leccy!!!


Mind the pennies and the pounds take care of themselves but that is not what this thread is about, at least in my mind. So it won't break the bank Dave but it is a good topic to discuss especially when site owners contribute their views?

peedee


----------



## Grizzly

Zebedee said:


> I can't see the logic of wasting probably ten quid or more in fuel on a needlessly high speed journey, then worrying about a couple of quid for EHU or a few Euros for an Aire?
> 
> Dave


Give the man a gold medal for sheer plain speaking ! Many campsites charge £10 or less per night and that includes EHU. When you look at what they have to put up with- witness earlier posts- this is remarkable value for money.

G


----------



## coppo

barryd said:


> peedee said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Caravan Club has in the past admitted putting in any form of metering would now result in uproar from its members.
> 
> 
> 
> Tough! If they did it people would still go. From what I can gather their sites are popular. So much so there are endless posts about not being able to get a pitch. It wouldnt be popular because people would be worried they would spend a fortune racking up huge bills. Well perhaps this would educate them to use just what they need rather than the selfish attitude of "Ive paid for it, Im going to use it".
> 
> Its got to be better for the environment as well. Unless, secretly these sites have worked out what their base price for a pitch is and are secretly making a profit on EHU.
Click to expand...

Your last sentence sums it up perfectly for me Barry.

I do agree though thats everyone should be catered for and having a nice, balanced mixture of sites means everyones touring style can be met.

I just wish people would stop commercialising some of my favourite CL's with EHU's and toilet blocks etc 

Only a few weeks ago we were at one of our regular CL's in York and the site owner was walking around the site with a suited man taking photos etc, he later informed me that the man was from the council and he was looking at getting planning permission for eco friendly lodges, toilet/shower blocks and EHU. Its going to go from £6 to £26 no doubt if it comes off.

I did put my views forward though. 

Paul.


----------



## Zebedee

peedee said:


> Mind the pennies and the pounds take care of themselves but that is not what this thread is about, at least in my mind. So it won't break the bank Dave but it is a good topic to discuss especially when site owners contribute their views?
> peedee


Hi Peedee

I think we have to distinguish between those who are trying to save the pennies, and others who resent having to pay for facilities they don't want.

Nothing wrong with either philosophy (_I would fall more into the latter_ :wink: ) but the concerns and objectives are quite dissimilar.

In any event I would not (_do not_! :roll: ) let it concern me to the point of spoiling my enjoyment of the van.

As a confirmed skinflint, and with Scottish ancestry to prove it :lol: I think of how much a holiday would cost if we were staying in hotels and had to eat out for every meal, especially on the Continent where it's far more difficult to eat cheaply than at home.

Good discussion though, as you say, and on balance I think I would vote for separately itemised facilities . . . so long as it was not used as a sneaky and convenient way of elevating the total cost. 8O

Dave


----------



## Grizzly

I think I am right in saying that many European campsites -French ?- get a government or local authority grant for improving or for setting up a new site. Is this also true in UK ? 

G


----------



## jedi

Zebedee said:


> I can never understand why folk are happy to pay £50,000 for a motorhome _(and that's not expensive these days! Our little shoe-box costs more than that new!! :roll: )_ then fret and worry if they can't find free Aire or have to pay a couple of quid for the leccy!!! :roll: :roll:
> 
> Since there are so many who do this, those same people may well be the ones who hammer down the motorway at 70 or 80mph, and increase their fuel consumption by about a third!
> 
> I can't see the logic of wasting probably ten quid or more in fuel on a needlessly high speed journey, then worrying about a couple of quid for EHU or a few Euros for an Aire?
> 
> Does this qualify me for the G.O.M Club? :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Dave


I was not going to contribute further to this discussion but feel these remarks, especially from a mod are rather unfair.

I cannot afford a £50000 motorhome
I do not drive at 70 to 80 mph
And I am not too tight to pay for electricity

My much cheaper van does not need hook-up all the time. It has leisure batteries 

I do not agree with some of the things Eddie says but he makes valid points about the problems with meters. His site sounds good value and worth a visit if I'm down that way.

Please allow me, though, to choose when to, or not to, hook-up without being labelled tight, irresponsible, dishonest or stupid.

ps what ios the G.O.M club :?

Jed


----------



## spykal

jedi said:


> I was not going to contribute further to this discussion but feel these remarks, especially from a mod are rather unfair.
> 
> I cannot afford a £50000 motorhome
> I do not drive at 70 to 80 mph
> And I am not too tight to pay for electricity
> 
> My much cheaper van does not need hook-up all the time. It has leisure batteries
> 
> I do not agree with some of the things Eddie says but he makes valid points about the problems with meters. His site sounds good value and worth a visit if I'm down that way.
> 
> Please allow me, though, to choose when to, or not to, hook-up without being labelled tight, irresponsible, dishonest or stupid.
> 
> ps what ios the G.O.M club :?
> 
> Jed


if the cap fits wear it ...if it does not ... ces't la vie

Mike


----------



## jedi

spykal said:


> if the cap fits wear it ...if it does not ... ces't la vie
> Mike


Wonderful. Thankfully this site still has some decent mods.


----------



## Zebedee

jedi said:


> spykal said:
> 
> 
> 
> if the cap fits wear it ...if it does not ... ces't la vie Mike
> 
> 
> 
> Wonderful. Thankfully this site still has some decent mods.
Click to expand...

I'm lost for words! 8O

Dave :?


----------



## jedi

Zebedee said:


> I think we have to distinguish between those who are trying to save the pennies, and others who resent having to pay for facilities they don't want.
> Dave


Sorry, Dave you must have been writing this as I wrote and we submited at the same time. It was the other mods short comment aimed to insult rather than contribute to the discussion that I took offence at. Maybe I'm just too sensitive 

I believe:
Campsite owner has every write to charge for electric if he has provided it on that pitch whether you want it or not.
Meters in theory are a fair way of providing electricity but bring there own problems.
Camping without hook-up is not an offence.
Motorhoming is fun.

I'm now going to lunch (at work)

Jed


----------



## Zebedee

jedi said:


> Sorry, Dave you must have been writing this as I wrote and we submited at the same time. It was the other mods short comment aimed to insult rather than contribute to the discussion that I took offence at. Maybe I'm just too sensitive
> Jed


OK Jed - no problem. 

Maybe you were being a bit too sensitive - you took personal offence at a generalised comment, and saw an insult where none was intended.

Best we stop here I think, and get on with enjoying the show! :lol:

Dave


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## spykal

Hi Jedi

As it was my short comment you are referring to then I must expand on it as I was not trying to insult you... quite the opposite in fact, as I can see where you are coming from as your take on it exactly coincides with my views about electricity and the charges for it.

All I was trying to say was that you were obviously not one of those motorhomers who have paid pots of money for a van and then jibe at paying for electricity. 

That is what I meant by "if the cap fits" .... it was obvious to me that the cap did not fit you and there was no way you should have got upset when references were made to those others by Zebedee. 

Mike


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## wakk44

jedi said:


> ps what ios the G.O.M club :?
> Jed


This is an exclusive club of which Zeb is a founder member,he can be seen below proudly collecting his hard earned trophy. :lol:


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## sallytrafic

I don't want ehu

When I am staying only one or two nights

When I am staying two or three and its not very cold (ie cold enough for diesel heating but not on permanently draining the battery)

When I am staying all week or even longer from April to October as on average my solar system copes (roughly from Spring to Autumn equinox)

When it costs a ridiculous amount for my maximum 4A useage


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## peedee

And there was I thinking Zeb had scored an own goal. (Goal Of the Month) The original question was aimed at sites not doing enough to promote energy saving by individuals on sites whilst in all other aspects of life, we are encouraged to do so. I asked;



> Should the club not be doing it's bit by offering at least a few discounted, electricity free pitches on each site for those that are increasing prepared to go that extra mile and fit solar panels?"
> 
> Whilst I have targeted the CC should all sites not have an obligation to provide these?


It wasn't about saving money, although you would hardly offer a pitch without a hook up at the same price as one with. Its about giving those that want it and are prepared to spend money in generating their own source of power, whether it be in a £10,000 or £50,000 plus van, a better choice.

Yes some sites do make provision but usually it is because they cannot do much else with the space with the obvious result they are not very popular.

peedee


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## Zebedee

peedee said:


> And there was I thinking Zeb had scored an own goal. peedee


Always a possibility Peedee!  :lol:

_(Did you like the picture of me and my friend Steve receiving our awards? :lol: )_

I was in complete agreement with your original post, but thought the way the poll was phrased made it a bit too narrow - as was shown when some of the comments began to polarise those with tight wallets against others who resented the lack of choice. _(I think I'm in both camps actually. :wink: )_

I an effort to keep the thread lively and interesting _(the Boss does "performance checks" on us poor workers you know!!   )_ I threw in a (mostly) tongue-in-cheek comment about the fifty grand vans . . . which of course in some instances is demonstrably accurate! 

It all makes for an interesting debate when we are stuck indoors and pining for the van! The nasty white stuff is thawing here, but not very fast.

Dave


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## Bill_H

So, you drive several hundred miles in 3,500kg motorhome at 25mpg, and you worry about a couple of kilowatts of electricity.
Perhaps the answer is to catch the train to your holiday site and stay in a tent - made from natural fibres of course. You won't need a heater as you can bask in the warm glow of knowing you are doing your bit to save the planet.


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## Zebedee

Careful Bill!

I got a slap for making a very similar point! 8O :roll: 

Dave :lol:


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## Bill_H

Zebedee said:


> Careful Bill!
> 
> I got a slap for making a very similar point! 8O :roll:
> 
> Dave :lol:


I didn't read all the posts in this thread, as I didn't want to use several pages of electricity looking through them all.


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## Grizzly

Doesn't the way this debate is going simply emphasise what is blatantly obvious ? 

We all use our vans differently
We have different economic circumstances
We're all different ages 
We have different needs when it comes to using our vans

We are becoming too judgemental about the views of others. Yes, hold strong views, yes, put them forward for consideration but NO, do not condemn others because their views are not yours. It's happening more and more on MHF and we are in danger of losing the nice, friendly feel that we have had and which make it a comfortable and pleasant place to discuss.

G


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## coppo

Grizzly said:


> Doesn't the way this debate is going simply emphasise what is blatantly obvious ?
> 
> We all use our vans differently
> We have different economic circumstances
> We're all different ages
> We have different needs when it comes to using our vans
> 
> We are becoming too judgemental about the views of others. Yes, hold strong views, yes, put them forward for consideration but NO, do not condemn others because their views are not yours. It's happening more and more on MHF and we are in danger of losing the nice, friendly feel that we have had and which make it a comfortable and pleasant place to discuss.
> 
> G


Well said there.

There is a big difference, by the way, in paying £3 a night and £25 a night, regardless of how many miles you have driven and what MPG you get. 
If this wasn't about generating money then EVERYBODY on this thread would say ''Brilliant, you can go to a site and have the option of a pitch without EHU, how great for the environment''

It is only being suggested as an OPTION, some with EHU and a few without, everyone is different and we must respect their views.

Paul.


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## Jezport

We wild camp a lot. Not really because of the cost of sites and being forced to pay for EHU but because the sites are usually too busy and we dont like to be all packed together

Some sites are using services such as EHU to charge more than they are worth. We just dont stay there.


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## cheshiregordon

I personally don't buy all this environmental stuff - if the UK and all its people disappeared tomorrow the global green house gas emissions would reduce by a massive 2% which would quickly be made good by the Chinese or some volcanic eruption.
I do think that as someone who often frequents CC sites and never sets foot inside the toilet block that perhaps they could amend their pricing so that a basic pitch fee plus toilet plus ehu increments would allow individuals to pick and choose!
Although I haven't read all the postings on this topic without an EHU I would need to use gas for the fridge (I have solar) bottled gas is not as cheap as it used to be - so savings on EHU would be offset by additional gas usage!!


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## barryd

I think regardless of whether your van cost £50000, £5000 or £500 for me the idea of a motorhome is that its self contained with its own water, waste and power. Yes the flipping thing has cost me a fortune, is rubbish on fuel and always needs something fixing but the whole point (for me I emphasise) is when I get where I want to be I have everything I need and dont want to be paying £25 for a parking space with EHU ,showers and toilets etc that I dont necessarily need at that point.

It sort of defeats the object of motorhoming (for me) really. Its one of many reasons I wouldnt use a club site but as Grizzly quite rightly points out we are all different.


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## coppo

Jezport said:


> We wild camp a lot. Not really because of the cost of sites and being forced to pay for EHU but because the sites are usually too busy and we dont like to be all packed together
> 
> Some sites are using services such as EHU to charge more than they are worth. We just dont stay there.


Exactly the same for us.

I do BUY the environmental bit, showing that you are doing your bit, lobbying, campaigning etc will eventually persuade others to do the same, China are already changing a little.

Paul.


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## Zebedee

Hi Paul

I must stop agreeing with you . . . . people will talk!! 8O 8O



coppo said:


> There is a big difference, by the way, in paying £3 a night and £25 a night, regardless of how many miles you have driven and what MPG you get.


Of course - and with reference to Grizzly's excellent point above, within a fairly complex subject like this, individual comments should not be taken in isolation and applied to onesself (resulting in umbrage) or to a different scenario (resulting in disagreement and a possible spat).

In a face-to-face debate with a pint in your hand, this would not be a problem, but remotely and in print it's very easy to give, or take the wrong impression.



coppo said:


> If this wasn't about generating money then EVERYBODY on this thread would say ''Brilliant, you can go to a site and have the option of a pitch without EHU, how great for the environment''


Also "_how great for us_" . . . and what's wrong with being a bit selfish about it? :wink:

OK - boring and I've said it before, but the more sophisticated we become as a society, the fewer individual freedoms remain. This is a classic case - some poorly applied beaurocracy from the EU and everybody has to fit in the same mould.  _(The original ruling is sensible - the blanket application to include campsites is not!)_



coppo said:


> It is only being suggested as an OPTION, some with EHU and a few without, everyone is different and we must respect their views.


Absolutely - but by the same token we must take care not to find conflict or insult where it is quite clear that none is intended.

There is a vast difference between expressing a strongly held opinion - and trying to impose it upon others. The latter is what causes the problems. :roll:

Dave


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## Penquin

And of course, our wishes for such a facility will probably change depending on such things as the weather, at present when the temperature here is well below 0C then more people are likely to want EHU than in the summer when it's 30C.

But no organisation can have it available sometimes and not others, it has to be there 24/7 as who knows who will want it when......

The cost of installation is massive due to the very heavy cable needed and the cost of entrenching them. Coupled with the safety aspects it will never be a cheap option.

The CC mainly caters for caravans (fact not opinion - look at their membership statistics), few caravans are equipped for "wild camping", fewer still carry generators. They therefore request EHU.

MH owners may well be much more capable of "independent living" away from EHU with solar panels, generators and even wind turbines being evident. BUT would you want to opt to stay on a site, perhaps only 5m from another unit where that unit chooses to run their generator to keep their batteries topped up and their electrical equipment functioning?

EHU is a sign of the times, yes we all should be looking to save electricity but when there is a flat rate for using as much as you want people will do precisely that - drying clothes in an awning over a 3kw fan heater is one example of that........

Why do we have a flat rate? Because of the expense of individual meters and actually reading them - and then the hassles where people say "that wasn't the reading when I came" and so on. So flat rate is easier and more economic to operate from the site owners point of view and hence probably cheaper for the user (us).

Of course, one of the problems is that organisations such as the CC are NOT allowed to charge a different figure for electricity units than they pay - so where is the money to provide the installation to come from if there is no "profit margin" in the supply?

So, EHU is desired by many, if not most users, it would be nice to be able to "opt out" but that would have to be policed (smart alecs would opt out and then plug in without telling anyone - often to someone else's outlet (seen it done in France on metered supplies)

It is a sign of the times, and if you don't want it don't use those sites where you cannot opt for the "standard pitch". That way there will be more available for those that want them! :lol: 

Dave


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## cheshiregordon

coppo said:


> Jezport said:
> 
> 
> 
> We wild camp a lot. Not really because of the cost of sites and being forced to pay for EHU but because the sites are usually too busy and we dont like to be all packed together
> 
> Some sites are using services such as EHU to charge more than they are worth. We just dont stay there.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly the same for us.
> 
> I do BUY the environmental bit, showing that you are doing your bit, lobbying, campaigning etc will eventually persuade others to do the same, China are already changing a little.
> 
> Paul.
Click to expand...

While I don't want to enter into a debate on EC - this is the same old augment being trotted out!! The figures speak for themselves.


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## peejay

Interesting to note that the Caravan Club are charging £4 extra p/n for 6amp electricity on their Barleylands temporary olympics site....

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/news-and-events/events/barleylands/

I wonder if that is in breach of those ofgem rules that are often quoted.

Pete


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## sallytrafic

Penquin said:


> And of course, our wishes for such a facility will probably change depending on such things as the weather, at present when the temperature here is well below 0C then more people are likely to want EHU than in the summer when it's 30C.
> 
> But no organisation can have it available sometimes and not others, it has to be there 24/7 as who knows who will want it when......
> 
> The cost of installation is massive due to the very heavy cable needed and the cost of entrenching them. Coupled with the safety aspects it will never be a cheap option.
> 
> The CC mainly caters for caravans (fact not opinion - look at their membership statistics), few caravans are equipped for "wild camping", fewer still carry generators. They therefore request EHU.
> 
> MH owners may well be much more capable of "independent living" away from EHU with solar panels, generators and even wind turbines being evident. BUT would you want to opt to stay on a site, perhaps only 5m from another unit where that unit chooses to run their generator to keep their batteries topped up and their electrical equipment functioning?
> 
> EHU is a sign of the times, yes we all should be looking to save electricity but when there is a flat rate for using as much as you want people will do precisely that - drying clothes in an awning over a 3kw fan heater is one example of that........
> 
> Why do we have a flat rate? Because of the expense of individual meters and actually reading them - and then the hassles where people say "that wasn't the reading when I came" and so on. So flat rate is easier and more economic to operate from the site owners point of view and hence probably cheaper for the user (us).
> 
> Of course, one of the problems is that organisations such as the CC are NOT allowed to charge a different figure for electricity units than they pay - so where is the money to provide the installation to come from if there is no "profit margin" in the supply?
> 
> So, EHU is desired by many, if not most users, it would be nice to be able to "opt out" but that would have to be policed (smart alecs would opt out and then plug in without telling anyone - often to someone else's outlet (seen it done in France on metered supplies)
> 
> It is a sign of the times, and if you don't want it don't use those sites where you cannot opt for the "standard pitch". That way there will be more available for those that want them! :lol:
> 
> Dave


Yes but

When its winter they don't have full occupancy so its no bother accommodating those (all on site perhaps) who want EHU.

In the summer when they have full occupancy lots don't need power.

So a ratio of 80 with electric to 20 without might work if you are attracting motorhomes to your site.

However have you considered all electriic camper vans. if Murvi are making them you can bet there is a demand.


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## peedee

peejay said:


> Interesting to note that the Caravan Club are charging £4 extra p/n for 6amp electricity on their Barleylands temporary olympics site....
> 
> http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/news-and-events/events/barleylands/
> 
> I wonder if that is in breach of those ofgem rules that are often quoted.
> 
> Pete


£4 sounds cheap, I wonder who the supplier is. Its £6 a night at the National Rally but they usually generate their own on that rally. If they are using their own generators at Barleylands, I wonder why there is a difference?

peedee


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## Grizzly

peejay said:


> Interesting to note that the Caravan Club are charging £4 extra p/n for 6amp electricity on their Barleylands temporary olympics site....


Is this the site :

http://www.campingmole.co.uk/CampsiteDetails.aspx?cid=4048

Sounds like it is a CL that has lots of space so it might be that the Club have had to extend the EHUs on a temporary basis. Given that you will have to book in advance, and they will know how many EHU and non-EHU, they presumably can add the extra as they want beforehand. This might explain the extra charge ?

G


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## Bill_H

Zebedee said:


> .....
> 
> In a face-to-face debate with a pint in your hand, this would not be a problem, but remotely and in print it's very easy to give, or take the wrong impression.


I hope my posts don't cause personal offence, strong reaction yes, but offence is not intended, just adding to the debate.
The quote above is pertinant, and I've yet to find the tongue-in-cheek emoticon.
Bill


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## Penquin

sallytrafic said:


> When its winter they don't have full occupancy..........


Until you try and book a site when you seem to be told they are virtually all full throughout the year............

The under-occupancy that they have (that we have all seen) is often because they are not using grass pitches for obvious reasons.

Few MH users venture wilingly onto slippery grass unless that is waht they want.......

I doubt that their power capacity is based on even 50% using much power, we have been on sites where restrictions have been imposed temporarily due to the demand tripping the breakers.

This occurs more frequently outside the summer season as more people want to use more power as I said.

Dave


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## peedee

I started this thread suggesting provision of more non electric pitches. Someone suggested metering which I stated I would not like to see introduced but, noting that metering is becoming more common and from a little research, I now think this is the solution. In fact, it may be inevitable if site owners are to effectively control pitch costs.

The use of card operated meters can remove the onus on site owners to read meters and the risks of vandalism to these. They are also not so expensive as some make out to install. Costing less than £50 each and easy to install, to recover the costs of fitting, they could add as little as 8p per night to pitch costs over their life expectancy. I have used a figure of £20 each for installation costs and a life of 10 years with the cost of cards at just under 2p each to arrive at this figure. This does not seem unrealistic but if you know better, I stand to be corrected.

Surely at this price or near to it, it has to be worth it to the site owner and the customer who then has more choice on how much or how little electricity they consume.

peedee


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## oldun

Meyers will be expensive to install and will require more maintenance etc so be prepared to pay for them - probably by an extra charger per pitch meaning that the non ehu users will pay for them anyway.

I suggest an extra charge per pitch as it will be difficult to add these costs to the electricity charges.


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## Zebedee

If you don't mind me asking Oldun, why do you dig up so many ancient threads?

Just wondering.

Dave


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## aldra

I must admit I don't mind either way

if its very hot I seek out electric to run the aircon or a remote spot where I can run the aircon on the gas generator

other than that I'm not fussed, have solar and gas so basically self reliant

Under normal conditions would only use the hookup for the fridge, lights and occasionally a video

I class the provision of electric as part of the cost of campsites, some cost more than others but you are free to choose not to use those sites

Aldra


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## sweetie

Zebedee said:


> If you don't mind me asking Oldun, why do you dig up so many ancient threads?
> 
> Just wondering.
> 
> Dave


I think he gets bored at times and wants to wind someone up 

Steve


----------



## aldra

don't we all?

Get bored at times I mean  :lol: 

aldra


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## shedbrewer

*Cost of electricityon sites*

get bored sometimes,,,,NEVER,,,,, I have enough to occupy myself at all times, am I a lucky fella or what,,,,


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## Zebedee

sweetie said:


> Zebedee said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't mind me asking Oldun, why do you dig up so many ancient threads?
> Just wondering.
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> I think he gets bored at times and wants to wind someone up
> Steve
Click to expand...

Watch it Steve. He'll be back to have a go at you . . . in a couple of years time! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dave


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## Zozzer

I firmly believe that all electricity should be supplied from a metered source at the basic metered tariff per Kw/H as dictated by law as the supply of electricity . Any maintenance related fee for electrical equipment should be part of the pitch fee where electricity is available.

It is totally unfair to average out the cost of electricity per pitch based on total site usage.

Would any of us agree to pay electricity charges at home based on the average consumption in the town we live. Of course we wouldn't.


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## peedee

Couldn't agre more zozzer which leads me nicely on to bumping up >this poll<

peedee


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## wakk44

It's nice to have electrical independence and the choice of an ehu or not.I have gone the solar route so don't need a hook up for about 9 months of the year.

The winter months produce very little solar power but is not really a concern for me as I only go out for 2-3 days in winter.If we went for a longer period then a hook up would be necessary(or become unpopular and buy a genny :lol: )

I have been on a few sites where the best pitches with views were non electric so I didn't have to think twice about going on them.I do think that some campers(particularly tuggers)are becoming more reliant on an ehu with the ever increasing mains electric appliances fitted in leisure vehicles.

Give me 12 volt,gas,and electrical independence every time. :wink:


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## sweetie

Zebedee said:


> sweetie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zebedee said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't mind me asking Oldun, why do you dig up so many ancient threads?
> Just wondering.
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> I think he gets bored at times and wants to wind someone up
> Steve
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Watch it Steve. He'll be back to have a go at you . . . in a couple of years time! :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Dave
Click to expand...

Will that be his next date out of hibernation Dave :lol: :lol:


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## Rosbotham

Zozzer said:


> It is totally unfair to average out the cost of electricity per pitch based on total site usage.
> 
> Would any of us agree to pay electricity charges at home based on the average consumption in the town we live. Of course we wouldn't.


No, but a better analogy would be to ask the question of whether it'd be reasonable to have a meter in a hotel room & only pay for what you've used, versus having it built into the room rate.


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## cheshiregordon

why stop at electricity! surely if we accept the idea of only paying for what we use then all services provided should carry a separate charge!
e.g
use of the toilet block 
use of the chemical discharge point
filling water 
waste water discharge
Dog walk
kiddies play-ground 
TV booster point.
cutting the grass around the pitch

etc etc.


----------



## peedee

Rosbotham said:


> Zozzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is totally unfair to average out the cost of electricity per pitch based on total site usage.
> 
> Would any of us agree to pay electricity charges at home based on the average consumption in the town we live. Of course we wouldn't.
> 
> 
> 
> No, but a better analogy would be to ask the question of whether it'd be reasonable to have a meter in a hotel room & only pay for what you've used, versus having it built into the room rate.
Click to expand...

I disagree. You don't cook in your hotel room and the heating and lighting are controlled by the hotel. 
peedee


----------



## peedee

cheshiregordon said:


> why stop at electricity! surely if we accept the idea of only paying for what we use then all services provided should carry a separate charge!
> e.g
> use of the toilet block
> use of the chemical discharge point
> filling water
> waste water discharge
> Dog walk
> kiddies play-ground
> TV booster point.
> cutting the grass around the pitch
> 
> etc etc.


Which is why many prefer minimal facility sites which as a rule are generally cheaper.
peedee


----------



## Rosbotham

peedee said:


> Rosbotham said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, but a better analogy would be to ask the question of whether it'd be reasonable to have a meter in a hotel room & only pay for what you've used, versus having it built into the room rate.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. You don't cook in your hotel room and the heating and lighting are controlled by the hotel.
> peedee
Click to expand...

Personally when I use hotels, I do prefer those which have a light switch in the room, and a kettle to make a cup of tea..... :wink: Thermostat on the wall's usually handy too.


----------



## oldun

peedee said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> 
> The CC and other site owners rubbed their hands with glee when they introduced the combined pitch and electric fee under the excuse of complying with EU regulations. The potential income from each pitch was maximumised.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think this is necessarily so, the CC made an operating loss on running its sites in 2008 and 2009. In 2009 this was much larger than in 2008 and it was all put down to the increased cost of site electricty.
> 
> I also recently stayed on a CL where the owner apologised that they would have to put up their charges on Jan 1st from £10 to £12 per night due the cost of electric. So I don't think they are rubbing their hands with glee although the provision of hook ups does seem to increase pitch occupancy.
> 
> peedee
Click to expand...

It's not surprising that many caravaners and motorhomers will not pitch their outfits on non electric pitches when manufacturers are now fitting out vans with electric hobs.

These vans are practically useless on non-electric pitches.


----------

