# Dispute with trader over damage to Burstner 748 roof



## Mongrel (May 11, 2011)

Hi Folks, I'm currently in dispute with a trader in the South West regarding extensive damage to the roof of a Burstner 748, most probably caused by a continental hail storm. The roof has hundreds if not thousands of small dents in it, it looks as if a rugby team has danced all over it. The roof is watertight at the moment but I have been told it could fail in the future, I have a background in experimental structural analysis and believe this to be the case. I have spoken to two reputable companies who specialise in motorhome repairs and they have both recommended that the roof panel is replaced. It can not be repaired due to the extent of the damage and the construction method used on a Burstner. All the trader has offered so far is to make the roof good with a skim of filler and some paint, he is insistent the roof does not need replacing. Not a good situation to be in with a £32k motorhome. To all you folks out there just about to buy a motorhome or caravan for that matter, don't take the word of the trader, CHECK THE ROOF!!!. I am currently in the process of taking the trader to the county court however I now need a vehicle engineer experienced inspecting motorhomes who could be an expert witness and can prepare a report for court etc. Can anyone help please. Thanks & Regards Marcus


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Hello Marcus
welcome to MHF

you don't make it clear - did you buy it from them in that state recently, or did you buy it from them and use it on holiday and get the damage?


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

There are plenty of motorhomes and caravans with dented roofs across the channel where heavy hail storms are much more common, we were quite alarmed when we first saw one.  

They don't seem to worry too much about it unless the sides/rear are damaged and cosmetically unacceptable. As long as the damage is not too severe (and no skin perforation of course) you should be OK.

Having said that, I would have expected a reputable trader to point out the damage prior to purchase and make a suitable price adjustment.


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Caveat Emptor, springs to mind. :wink: 

tony


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

You can buy hail damaged vans much cheaper in Europe. We were haggling with another Hobby in Germany a while back as it was virtually half price due the the dimples all over the roof.

Ray.


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## Bob45 (Jan 22, 2007)

We were in our previous caravan near Limoges but high up when there was this tremendous storm. The hail stones were bigger than golf balls and it was a frightening experience.
On returning home I found that the entire roof was pot marked and questioned my insurance company as to cover and they eventually paid for a new roof.

Not something we usually check though.

Bob


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## Mongrel (May 11, 2011)

Hi Folks Thank for responses, we have been told that the roof should be replaced as it can start to crack from the dents due to the aluminium being made brittle from all the impacts. The roof was like this when we purchased the vehicle, we collected it on the 18th March got it home and noticed the damage from one of our upstairs windows on the 19th or 20th. I can't remember there being a freak hail storm on our way back up the M5 either. Cheers Marcus

_(Mod note. Typo corrected for you on this post, and subsequent redundant one removed.)_


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## Snelly (Aug 20, 2005)

The ali skin is quite vulnerable to denting, but (unlike semi bonded caravans) the motorhome roofs are quite strong with lots of supports.


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

I wonder if the dealer was made aware when he/she bought the van in! 

There always seems a moral acceptance of ripping a dealer off, yet outrage when it gets passed on to a "new" owner.

One often reads on this web site " I had so many problems with the van I sold it" I wonder if the dealers ergo the new owners are every made aware of the "loads of problems"

I guess ultimately that the arguement will be did the dealer know and knowingly pass the vehicle on? I suspect that on a 2nd hand motorhome, to cure an asthetic problem a fill and spray would be deemed a reasonable solution.

I would think that you would struggle to enforce a re-roof of the van even through the courts.

Eddie


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## motormouth (Jul 3, 2010)

I think you are on a sticky wicket. The buyer has a duty to fully inspect any purchase before agreeing to buy. You had the opportunity to do this. Unless the seller made a false representation about the condition, e.g., the bodywork is perfect, there are no marks on the bodywork etc etc, then you may find that their offer to skim and paint the roof is as good as you will get. You may end up with nothing if you go to court and lose. 

All IMHO of course but something to consider.


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## brockley (Mar 6, 2009)

I wonder Eddie if this is partly the reason why dealers offer trade in values at well below the price you would expect to sell privately for, even after taking into account their 'overheads'.

I would expect a competent dealer to be capable of assessing the true value/condition of a camper they intend to take as a trade in, after all, they are the experts.

I'm sure that some unscrupulous individuals outside the trade do sell camper vans on because they are having "loads of problems", just as they would with any other type of vehicle. However, I'm sure that many of us expect reputable dealers to be forthright and honest at all times. Aesthetics are one thing, but a roof covered in dimples not knowingly passed on - come on now!


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## brockley (Mar 6, 2009)

No answer came the loud reply! :wink:


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

brockley said:


> No answer came the loud reply! :wink:


Ah some of us have a life as well you know :wink:

I am not a trader so I don't know what they do. All I know is that the number of times that I read people on this forum say that they got shot of a motorhome as there were too many faults. This being the case, I wonder how many of these people would list the faults that were so serious that they felt forced to sell the vehicle, to a potential buyer or a dealer?

From first hand knowledge we are often asked to re-fit old equipment as the motorhome is being sold and the "new bits" or equipment is felt "too good" to part exchange into a dealer.

I must admit that I would always look on the roof of a van before buying it though.

Eddie


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## ICDSUN (Oct 10, 2006)

Slightly OT

In our case we had a wait of 7 months for delivery, in that time the initial inspection/valuation could have been wildly adrift in particular to roof damage and other possible reasons to lower the value, a prudent dealer would allow some leeway for these scenarios and as such will not be overly generous with p/ex values.

People who are trading in a perceived rogue MH are unlikely to list all the faults to the dealer or purchaser, is that seen as dishonest or just part of doing the deal on their part.

I did check our van out including the roof area on the PDI and was encouraged to do so by our dealer

To the OP I hope you get a satisfactory result

Chris


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## brockley (Mar 6, 2009)

Sorry Eddie if you thought I was trying to force a reply, I may have been mistaken into thinking you weren't going to reply as I saw you had been active in other areas of the forum some while after my last post.

I'm sure that you are closer to the trade than most people here, thats why I reacted to your statement "There always seems a moral acceptance of ripping a dealer off, yet outrage when it gets passed on to a "new" owner". You also questioned whether people here pass on information to dealers about the "many faults". 

I don't believe a dealer is as easily misled by a punter from this site than a punter from this site is be by a dealer. As previously said - they are the experts, not us and the expectation is that they should be honest.

I also don't believe that most people here have a moral acceptance of ripping dealers off. If someone says " I had so many problems with the van I sold it", why doubt full disclosure to the dealer? I believe that everyone likes to feel they have got a bargain, I also believe that dealers build this into the deal to make the punter feel they did.

Dealers do have overheads and I'm sure they get landed with the odd Lemon from time to time. I'm also sure that they compensate this by giving low trade in values. Call me an old sceptic - I just don't believe such large trade in profits can be justified this way.

As for the roof, a dealer would spot extensive damage like this straight away. This dealer passed it on to Marcus without a thought. I don't mean to be insulting Marcus, but my bet is you didn't notice the damage because firstly, you are not an expert in the trade and secondly, you expected the dealer to be forthright and honest about it.


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## norm1955 (Sep 20, 2009)

*Damaged Roof*

Hi It might be an idea to contact the previous owner, also may be worth a HPI check or any other comany that can check the Insurance database.
Hope this helps,
Good Luck..........
Kind Regards

Norman


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

My current van and my last one came from the same dealer. I changed because I had multiple problems with the last van at just a year old. The dealer seemed unable to fix the faults. This dealer was well aware of all the faults in the old van and seemed not to care, his only interest was in doing a deal so he could get another wad of cash on the change.

When moving the toys from the old van to the new they just cut wires and pushed them out of sight. I was there when this was being done and offered to label the wires so that the new owner would not be faced with an insoluble puzzle, they had no interest in doing that.

Of course they may have tidied it all up afterwards but my experience with this dealer makes me doubt it. Many dealers will try to get away with as much as possible and fix things only when or if people find them, Alan.


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

brockley said:


> Sorry Eddie if you thought I was trying to force a reply, I may have been mistaken into thinking you weren't going to reply as I saw you had been active in other areas of the forum some while after my last post.
> 
> I'm sure that you are closer to the trade than most people here, thats why I reacted to your statement "There always seems a moral acceptance of ripping a dealer off, yet outrage when it gets passed on to a "new" owner". You also questioned whether people here pass on information to dealers about the "many faults".
> 
> ...


Oh trust me, many many people will happily sell a lemon to another motorhomer without a moments hesitation. I know as we often have to help the "new" owner pick up the pieces.

We are also often requested to remove items replacing them with cheaper options or often not replacing them at all.

There is good and bad in every group of people, whether dealers or public, pr plumbers or tailors!

Eddie


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## brockley (Mar 6, 2009)

Sorry Eddie for the long delay in replying, I've been trying to fit my life around composing a reply, you know how it is :wink: 

It pains me to read that your faith in motorhomers has reached such a low ebb.

It also leaves me wondering if your career choice has become something of a challenge to you of late.

I do of course appreciate the difficult circumstances surrounding dealing with human nature on a daily basis. However, If circumstances ever began to leave me feeling cynical towards the 'normal people' I deal with daily, I think I would view this as a promp to move on or retire.


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## HarleyDave (Jul 1, 2007)

Is it just me or does Brockley's post look/feel/seem a bit like trolling??

It looks to me like a direct attack on the previous post while adding nothing to the debate.

Cheers

Dave


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

brockley said:


> Sorry Eddie for the long delay in replying, I've been trying to fit my life around composing a reply, you know how it is :wink:
> 
> It pains me to read that your faith in motorhomers has reached such a low ebb.
> 
> ...


Low Ebb?? Certainly not! it was the double standards that attracted me to the industry twenty two years ago. Remember I specialise in security systems and I spend lots of time talking to people who have been ripped off, robbed and conned! Trust me it is not always the dealers you have to worry about.

The great thing about running a really successful business is that we can pick and choose who we do business with, so we can elliminate the really nasty ones, so no need for me to retire so young. Perhaps when I am in my fifties, who knows, I have a fantastic team around me so I will probably drift off into the background and get "wheeled out" at shows and open days :lol:

I don't think that there are any more rotten motorhomers than there are plumbers, golfers or shop assistants. There are just rotten people in all walks of live, the trick is to identify this and avoid them. On the whole most of the people that have motorhomes are pleasant and charming people and good fun.

But thank you for the concern anyway, even if it is way off the mark 
:wink:

Eddie


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## brockley (Mar 6, 2009)

I am pleased that I was off the mark about the low ebb. I'm also pleased that "There always seems a moral acceptance of ripping a dealer off, yet outrage when it gets passed on to a "new" owner" didn't actually mean how it read. :wink:


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## JohnGun (May 15, 2009)

I have a background in experimental structural analysis and believe this to be the case

WHAT WOULD THAT BE???????


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