# Refund from CakTanks...?



## chalkstorm (Feb 25, 2010)

Hi all

Am interested in opinions please...

I bought something from CakTanks (a shower bracket). Was the only place that had one to match the faulty one - I checked their brochure carefully.

Anyway, when it arrived, it was totally different. I called and told them. They said sometimes this happens when stock runs out.... and agreed to take it back.

So, after a lengthy delay and a chasing email, they finally refunded me. The refund did not include the outbound or return postage!! I've just called and they said that as it wasn't faulty it isn't policy to refund postage.

Needless to same, I'm a little annoyed at this. Only talking £3... but the principal....

Do I actually have any rights in this matter?

The link to their T&Cs on their web site doesn't work...

:evil:


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## chalkstorm (Feb 25, 2010)

Just had an email back - they are going to 'try' and refund it as a gesture of goodwill.

They claim that they do change products without notice, which isn't an issue - but I don't think the customer should be penalised... with postage costs for something completely outside of his control.

:roll:


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## grizzlyj (Oct 14, 2008)

Hi

I bought a water filler inlet for the side of my camper from them, and a cap since the inlet photo doesn't show a cap coming with. Posted to France cos thats where I was 

The inlet did come with, so now I've got two, although I think the 2nd one doesn't even fit. Return postage from France was more than the 2nd cap was worth, so i've still got it and havn't ordered anything from them since. I could have rung to ask first, but me checking if their website is accurate before ordering and it ending up costing me is a strange way to do business  The description has since been changed, but the pic hasn't.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

I have purchased from CAK, three times and I am very satisfied with their service and prices. Once they were about £30 cheaper than the next lowest price supplier.
I have net needed to return goods as everything has up to now been as expected.


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## chalkstorm (Feb 25, 2010)

Grath said:


> I have purchased from CAK, three times and I am very satisfied with their service and prices. Once they were about £30 cheaper than the next lowest price supplier.
> I have net needed to return goods as everything has up to now been as expected.


Yes, I have used them several times..... lucky you haven't had to return anything though....


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## karlb (Feb 22, 2009)

just a thought..... if you return something to the hight st would you expect a refund of petrol and car parking?


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## chalkstorm (Feb 25, 2010)

karlb said:


> just a thought..... if you return something to the hight st would you expect a refund of petrol and car parking?


helpful.


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## spatz1 (May 19, 2011)

karlb said:


> just a thought..... if you return something to the hight st would you expect a refund of petrol and car parking?


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## jarcadia (May 1, 2005)

karlb said:


> just a thought..... if you return something to the hight st would you expect a refund of petrol and car parking?


Yes, our Tesco branch is a 20 mile round trip away. Every time I've taken something back that has been THEIR FAULT, I've claimed and got mileage, with no hassle.

.


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## val33 (Jun 29, 2008)

karlb said:


> just a thought..... if you return something to the hight st would you expect a refund of petrol and car parking?


That is not the same. When buying over the phone or internet you are not able to physically inspect the item. If the supplied item is not identical to the pictured item on their website then you are entitled to a full refund of the cost of the goods, delivery and return postage. That is the law. EU Distance Selling Regulations.

Val


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## chalkstorm (Feb 25, 2010)

val33 said:


> That is not the same. When buying over the phone or internet you are not able to physically inspect the item. If the supplied item is not identical to the pictured item on their website then you are entitled to a full refund of the cost of the goods, delivery and return postage. That is the law. EU Distance Selling Regulations.
> 
> Val


Thanks Val. I suspected that but after looking at the regs, gave up after 5 minutes!


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

What CAK are doing is interesting though.

Presumably if you ordered a toilet cassette for say a Thetford C250 but they were out of stock they would not presume that any other cassette could be substituted and send it instead? If they did and it was not suitable due to being nothing like the item you ordered and not actually even fitting would they still expect you to pay for their foolishly having sent it? 

I reckon their policy is wrong, illegal and cak, Alan.


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## TR5 (Jun 6, 2007)

As has been said already, distance selling regulations governs your purchase, and if it is not as the description (including the picture) you are entitled to a full refund of the goods AND costs incurred in supplying/returning.


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## chalkstorm (Feb 25, 2010)

erneboy said:


> If they did and it was not suitable due to being nothing like the item you ordered and not actually even fitting would they still expect you to pay for their foolishly having sent it?


Yes. They expect you to pay outbound and return postage in this case.

To quote their email back to me today... (although mine was a £5 shower bracket - with a fitting the right shape to fit my shower head)

"...there is a statement at the bottom of the first page of the catalogue stating "PRICES & SPECIFICATIONS SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE".

We cannot help it when a supplier changes the way they make things and therefore we are equally stuck in the middle"

:roll:


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## tattytony (Jun 29, 2009)

chalkstorm said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> > If they did and it was not suitable due to being nothing like the item you ordered and not actually even fitting would they still expect you to pay for their foolishly having sent it?
> ...


You can quote back to them the DSR as it applies to anything you purchase that can not be handled and a full refund of postage for del and rtn should be obtained.

I have an online store and have to abide by these rules also :wink:


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## chalkstorm (Feb 25, 2010)

tattytony said:


> I have an online store and have to abide by these rules also :wink:


Would it make any difference though - you can't order online - only view their catalogue - and then have to phone through the order...


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## tattytony (Jun 29, 2009)

chalkstorm said:


> tattytony said:
> 
> 
> > I have an online store and have to abide by these rules also :wink:
> ...


No difference what so ever so long as you have contacted them within a set time usually 14days to advise of any problems then they have to if incorrect item refund or replace at their cost and refund your return postage or arrange collection :wink:

They are obliged to rectify any mistakes not you if you ordered the correct item by phone or online and they sent the wrong item then its their fault and tell them that.

As for their "PRICES & SPECIFICATIONS SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE" note they can not change specification on items on order only if they inform you at time of purchase, it is not a valid statement after all you wouldn't go and order 400x400 heki and be happy with a 300x300 heki sent as they changed the specs without notice :roll:

Good luck with it


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## TR5 (Jun 6, 2007)

If the item they intend to send to you is not to the same spec., size, style, colour, dimensions etc., as that advertised, i.e. not the same item, then it is their responsibility to either; (a) contact you first and ask if you will accept an alternative, (b) give you the option to cancel the order before supply, or (c) accept full costs involved in supplying and returning an alternative.

They cannot have exclusions in their contract of sale, which takes away your rights. Items may change without notice, but they cannot expect you to be physic....

If an particular item stated alongside it, "...this item may be supplied in black or blue colour..." then you have the option to say, I only want it in black, or I don't care what colour it is.

However, they cannot say, "if you order anything in our catalogue, you must state that you want the exact item as advertised, and not an alternative", or you pay the costs of supply and return. That is an unreasonable clause or assumption.

If the item you ordered is different to that which you expected, due to the picture and/or description, and you were not informed otherwise before supply, then they are liable for your costs. Full Stop.

CAK tanks - that's business, i'm afraid, you take the rough with the smooth!


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Judging from this thread, you would never think CAK Tanks are a damn good, and very obliging company, would you? 8O

I know all about the legal minutiae, but is it right to give them such a beating up for the sake of three quid . . . which it seems they will refund anyway. :roll:

What about the eBay sellers who charge £1 for an item, plus £20 post and packing - then declare that they will refund only the cost of the item if it is returned?

Now that really is a scam!

Just my personal opinion.
*No Mod's hat in sight, before anyone has a go!!*

Dave


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## tattytony (Jun 29, 2009)

Zebedee said:


> Judging from this thread, you would never think CAK Tanks are a damn good, and very obliging company, would you? 8O
> 
> I know all about the legal minutiae, but is it right to give them such a beating up for the sake of three quid . . . which it seems they will refund anyway. :roll:
> 
> ...


Dave I agree with you thats why paypal refunds the full payment :wink:

I have bought from CAK with no problems but had they have said for the sake of only £3 yes of course we will refund your postage then I am sure this thread would not have started :wink:


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## chalkstorm (Feb 25, 2010)

Zebedee said:


> I know all about the legal minutiae, but is it right to give them such a beating up for the sake of three quid . . . which it seems they will refund anyway. :roll:


They haven't yet....

Seems they are very begrudging about it and I wanted to ask the question on here re refunds and my rights.

They may be a very obliging company - but like most things, it is how they handle things that don't go well that often really matter. I have ordered other stuff without an issue (mind you, it was as described!)

The £3 is irrelevant. Could have been much more. This is about the principal.

:roll:


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## pomme1 (May 19, 2005)

I have to agree with Dave. I've bought many bits and pieces from CAK that I couldn't source anywhere else. I've bought over the 'phone and have also picked stuff up from their unit. In my experience they are a very sound and helpful outfit albeit small and, I guess not terribly sophisticated. 

No doubt they screwed up this time, but I'm not sure what the OP hopes to gain from dragging their reputation through the mud when the original dispute is in the process of resolution.

Roger


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## chalkstorm (Feb 25, 2010)

pomme1 said:


> No doubt they screwed up this time, but I'm not sure what the OP hopes to gain from dragging their reputation through the mud when the original dispute is in the process of resolution.
> 
> Roger


I wanted to know if I was in the right....! You are not party to all the communication...

:roll:


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## chalkstorm (Feb 25, 2010)

I've suggested Dave deletes this thread.....if it is causing so much upset....


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## Mandale (May 18, 2011)

Firstly thanks for the heads up on this one Chalkstorm, we manufacture motorhomes and were looking to purchase lots of items from this company. Don’t think I would be paying postal or special delivery charges on an item that was ordered correctly and supplied wrong. I must say though, we have ordered various things from this company and what I have ordered is what has come. I do feel that if a customer ordered something from me and I sent something else, I would be more than apologetic and the postal cost would be paid for by me. Our relationship would end very quickly with any supplier who follows this policy.


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## val33 (Jun 29, 2008)

I don't view this thread as being a general slagging off of CAK Tanks. However, they, and a lot of other companies, believe that if they put disclaimers on their sites or catalogues, or 'get outs' in their T&C', then they can do what they want.

They can not.

The Distance Selling Regulations are LAW.

Most of the companies that fail to follow the regs are old traditional firms and businesses more used to dealing with the trade. I do understand their pain, but if they want to sell to retail customers by phone, catalogue, or web, then they really do need to make sure that they abide by the LAW.

Appart from the refund of postage costs, the other common failing is to make a 'restocking charge'. This too is 100% illegal in ALL circumstances at all times if the customer is retail.

I do feel sorry for CAK Tanks, they are an old style retailer trying to survive in an internet world, but that does not mean they can break the law. As the OP says, it's a matter of principal.

Val


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

pomme1 said:


> I have to agree with Dave. I've bought many bits and pieces from CAK that I couldn't source anywhere else. I've bought over the 'phone and have also picked stuff up from their unit. In my experience they are a very sound and helpful outfit albeit small and, I guess not terribly sophisticated.
> 
> No doubt they screwed up this time, but I'm not sure what the OP hopes to gain from dragging their reputation through the mud when the original dispute is in the process of resolution.
> 
> Roger


The point is that there shouldn't be any "original dispute" to "resolve".


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## namder (Sep 20, 2006)

> Just my personal opinion.
> No Mod's hat in sight, before anyone has a go!!


Zebedee, you may not have your Mod hat on but as a Mod you should refrain from making light of a trader ripping off a member. The amount of money involved is of no consequence and the trader has stated it is his policy and could therefore have been for a lot more. Lets hope previous rip offs of members by this traders refund policy will now be rectified.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

OK some thoughts from me.......

I have bought from CAK tanks several times and found them VERY helpful and very quick, all of the items that I wanted were delivered exactly as ordered so I have never come across what the OP states.

I cannot and will not therefore comment on this specific incident or the relative merits or otherwise of the value of the amount in dispute.

BUT I will nail my colours to the mast and state that if ANY company supplied me with incorrect goods and then tried not to refund the cost of p&p I would be extremely annoyed........

The Distance Selling Regulations are clear and DO govern ALL such distance selling whether it is by post, phone or internet as far as I am aware. The exceptions are listed in the pages below;

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft913.pdf

section 2:5 states;
_
• that you will pay the cost of your consumers returning any
products that you supply as substitutes because the goods
or services originally ordered are not available._

No company can arbitrarily change those regulations or how they apply to any sale, if they could then the whole basis of trade would degenerate to a point where it could not take place.

Any company that tries, for whatever sum of money, should IMO be reported to Trading Standards as that is not acceptable or legal and Trading Standards would be sure to investigate and resolve any misunderstandings.

Such practice would make me think very carefully about using such a service more than once.......

Dave


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## chalkstorm (Feb 25, 2010)

Well, got the postage refund yesterday (a week after the 'gesture of goodwill comment'!) so my case is now closed with Cak Tanks.

Shame it was so painful...

Simon


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I too have dealt with CAK and have found them to be fine, if a bit slow.

I got what I ordered as I am sure the vast majority of customers do.

This thread isn't just about CAK or £3. It's about retailers thinking the law can be ignored for their convenience or at their whim, or worse still not being aware of the laws governing their business activities.

I am constantly amazed at the sheer number of retailers who either don't know what the law says or choose just to ignore it. If we don't resist this kind of thing where does it end? 

I am glad the OP now has his refund, Alan.


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## ThursdaysChild (Aug 2, 2008)

And I'm jolly glad that this thread has enlightened us all.
Thank you.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

I hope it won't turn members against CAK Tanks, since as Alan says, they are a good firm and by no means unique in this context! :roll:

There are so many scams around though, deliberate or otherwise.

Like paying VAT on postage stamps when you buy something remotely.

The postage is always added to the bill *before *the VAT is calculated, and it can't be right that the customer pays VAT for a postage stamp, over and above its face value. 8O 8O

Why don't we get stuck into this one. It's just as bad, but very few people seem to notice - or get wound up about it! :roll:

Dave


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

Postage is always combined with packing/handling so you cant prove vat is being charged on a stamp in reality


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

What I mean is they would just argue that the postage element of the P&P charge is net of tax so the correct price when VAT added to the total. 
I don't think it is rife tho :roll: 
Many sellers advertise free P&P which obviously is considered in the article pricing. Nothings for nowt!


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Copied from a business forum:

Postage when supplied by the Royal Mail is exempt from VAT.

Postage when supplied by anyone else is usually standard-rated or zero-rated. Let me explain.

If the contract is to supply and deliver an item, the postage rate normally follows that of the supply you are making, so if you are sending out books/printed materials - these are zero rated supplies - so your postage charge on top will be zero rated. If you are posting out a DVD or whatever else, then your postage charge will be standard-rated.

If the delivery cost is an additional element to the supply then it will be standard-rated regardless of what is being sent.

But it will never be an exempt supply unless you are the Royal Mail itself.

Have a look at this Notice 700/24 (link) : http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsP...yType=document

In answer to your example, if you are charging £4.00 for delivery then you would need to add VAT onto that £4.00 (£4.70)


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Why can't all companies be like Amazon. I bought a sat nav from them 8 months ago and it went faulty. I e-mailed them, they responded staright away offering a complete refund as they could not replace and included a pre paid return address label for me to print out. Within 5 days of posting the complete costs, including the original postage, was returned to my CC.
I am sure that they must have some disappointed cutsomers but I have always found them efficient.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yep, just had a faulty Kindle replaced. New one sent out pending return of the old one, Alan.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

erneboy said:


> Postage when supplied by the Royal Mail is exempt from VAT.


Not on the two items we had delivered yesterday and today, Alan!

I take Techno's point though. P & P is obviously the way they get around it if anybody moans.

Dave


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

karlb said:


> just a thought..... if you return something to the hight st would you expect a refund of petrol and car parking?


No but the distance selling act covers goods bought without seeing them and it is totally different if the goods are not seen before purchase.


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## val33 (Jun 29, 2008)

Zebedee said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> > Postage when supplied by the Royal Mail is exempt from VAT.
> ...


No, The VAT notice is quite clear. A stamp is subject to VAT if sold by anyone other than Royal Mail in connection with a vatable sale.

Val


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

As you say Dave, not on zero rated items. It's a sneaky trick by the VAT people to gather a few more pounds by bending their own rules under the heading of expediency. They rarely miss a chance to stuff us even in small ways.

In fairness though it's probably a load of aggro for businesses to separate the cost of postage out, Alan.


Edit: I admit I didn't read the notice as I knew something about this from before. 

It seems from Val's post the stamps attract VAT when being resold regardless of the VAT status of the goods being shipped.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Interesting Alan and Val :wink:

I am interested only in the principle, same as the OP on this thread. A few pennies is neither here nor there to me . . . . but it might be to some folk. 8O 8O

I wonder what would be the response if you ordered an item by post _*and included in the letter the correct value of postage stamps to cover the P & P*_ . . . taken from the figure quoted _*before *_the VAT was added?

The stamps would then have been sold by the Post Office (to me) and could presumably be stuck quite legally on my parcel by the seller?

Don't think I'll make a habit of it - but I am tempted to try it on, just to be a cantankerous old fart!! :lol:

Dave


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

Stamps are cheaper in bulk from costco even with VAT
A big seller before xmas


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