# Habitation service electrical checks



## chrisjrv (May 7, 2007)

Hi,
Just booked my van in for a full habitation Service and been told that any van over five years old should have a full check of the mains system at £300 8O or we could sign a disclaimer and not bother. We will have it done as we will be selling next year but has anyone else come across this?
Regards,
Chris


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

Who says so?

Sounds cobblers to me- as does the price

And sign a disclaimer for what?

If it's the planned service engineer then I'd plan to have it done elsewhere-you're being ripped off in my view

If you ae selling in the future then up to date records of the "normal" hab checks should be enouOh- and what do you/he mean by "Full" hab service (should be "check") - it's either a hab check or it's not.


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## chrisjrv (May 7, 2007)

hi,
this is from Autosleepers, they say that as they are an approved service centre they have to inform their customer and if you decide not to have it done you sign a disclaimer which protects them. I use Autosleeper as I trust them to do a good job. If you were buying and the van had not had this electrical inspection ......................
Chris


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

I've never heard of it but others may have.

Personally I don't trust Autoslepers but that's through my own personal experiences-I know others use them.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone else who has either sold or bought a m/home with a "£300 full electrical inspection"- especially techno100 !

I still think you're being conned :wink:


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

They must be including all the electrics 12volt and 230volt systems. There is no legal requirement that I know of to have this done only a recommendation.
In any event £300 is eyepopping it's not like there's anything complicated on the mains side :?

having re read the OP I see it is just the mains so like £100 per radial :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: MANY PEOPLE WORK ALL DAY for less than a ton


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## trevorf (May 16, 2005)

An inspection of the mains system and a test of the Mcb's should be included with any habitation check as standard.
If everything works, the wiring looks secure, insulation sound and the earth Mcb's trip when tested what more can you do?
I always check all the mains sockets with a plug in tester also.



Trevor


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## kandsservices (Sep 5, 2010)

My answer is the sme as Trevor's we always check the sockets and the mcb trips in a habitation check.


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## jocie (Dec 24, 2006)

In my experience of buying both new and secondhand vans, the most important occasion to check all critical areas (call them what you like, but I would include as a minimum gas, electrical, and water ingress items) is immediately after taking delivery of the vehicle no matter what assurances you have been given either verbally or in writing. I would test sockets and mcb trips at least annually, and test all gas lines with a manometer every six months. A visual close examination off external bodywork seams and joins should be carried out every time you wash the vehicle , ( or at least quarterly). I must confess that this is all easy for me as I carry out all these tests myself and have done for twenty years, but most people should be able to learn to do the non gas tests for themselves, perhaps with some initial professional guidance.... :?


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

Are you sure it's not £30.00 Chris?
You could get a 3 bed house tested for £300 You only have 1 room and no lighting :lol:


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## jwinder (Mar 29, 2006)

hi chris
i agree with everything everybody else hava said they are ripping you off in my opinion


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## HeatherChloe (Oct 18, 2009)

Hello

See this recent thread where members discussed how much a habitation check on average cost http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-99731-.html.

You'll see that it is a lot less than £300. Also a habitation check includes gas and water too, not just electricity.

As for a "disclaimer" this is rather confusing....... This is YOUR VAN which YOU OWN. It doesn't belong to the Autosleeper dealer and they have no obligation towards it.

You can do whatever you want to with your own van so long as you comply with basic laws regarding taxing it, insuring it, and getting your MOT done.

As a van which is more than 5 years old, it is no longer under warranty, so you're not going to breach any warranty conditions.

So, if you feel you are concerned that the gas may be leaking, that the electrics may be dodgy, or so on, then by all means, shop around to find a company which will give it a good habitation check at a specific price.

But the idea that you have to sign a "disclaimer" to a company which you are NOT paying to provide you with any kind of service is just nonsense - what on earth would it be for or say? "I hereby declare that I have decided NOT to pay XYZ to check whether my electrics are safe, and I hereby agree that they are not responsible to me if the electrics are not safe and I absolve them from all liability". I mean, it's such a nonsense - of course they are not responsible if you haven't paid them to do it! If you had to sign a disclaimer to them, you'd have to sign a disclaimer to every company that you didn't use.

Tell them it's your van, and you'll do what you like with it, and you're not signing anything, and you don't like being treated like an idiot.

Then, if you want a habitation check (particularly if you want to do one shortly prior to sale) use a cheaper local company.


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

I think you have the answer there Chris. You may trust auto sleepers but a few on here smell a costly rat!


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## steles (Sep 29, 2005)

17th edition comes to mind

For info my full PIR test cost£80

I found the following on Google
NCC TB-2009-17 Page 1 of 2
Ref. No.TB-2009-17
Date 6th August 2009
Author:
Martin Perman, Technical Officer
Direct Tel: +44 (0) 1252 796054. mailto:[email protected]
Circulation: All Members
Subject(s): PIR Testing
Action required:
For Information
Dear Member,
Guidance on Periodical Inspection Reports for Electrical Installations
Summary
This bulletin is intended to clarify the industry requirements for periodic inspection and testing, it covers issuing a Periodic Inspection Report (PIR) and offers practical guidance to workshops and dealers providing this service. The bulletin covers periodic inspection and test frequencies for electrical installations in all Caravans i.e. Park Homes, Touring Caravans, Holiday Homes and Motorhomes. There is also information contained on the frequency of testing for Park installations.
Where a periodic inspection and test has been recommended and the user declines the service, the workshop can issue a disclaimer: whereby the owner signs to confirm that the PIR has been offered but declined.
Instructions in this bulletin describe how and when to use the disclaimer.
Requirements
There are two separate and distinct areas to consider:
1) Electrical installations in Caravans.
2) Electrical installations on parks to supply Caravans.
The IET and HSE have both issued guidance in this subject. The IET (IEE) in Guidance Note 3 and the HSE through guidance on the Statutory Regulations regarding the supply of electricity: the Electrical Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002 (ESQCR). In addition to this technical bulletin, the NCC has released a guide to the safe management of electrical installations and distribution on parks.
The 17th edition wiring regulations (BS 7671:2008), regulation 622.1, stipulates that a periodic inspection and test of an electrical installation should be carried out at a frequency determined with regard to the type of installation and equipment. In regulation 721.514 there is direct reference to this subject with respect to Caravans.
NCC TB-2009-17 Page 2 of 2
Frequency of Inspection and Test
It is the duty of the engineer carrying out a periodic inspection and test, on a Caravan or Park, to establish when the next periodic inspection is required. This will be based on the condition, age and type of installation.
To recommend when the next periodic inspection and test is due for installations in Caravans, the engineer will also need to take into account the use of the Caravan, and the mileage covered for a Touring Caravan or Motorhome: this will then be reviewed at that time. This period will be not less than 3 years and in some cases could be 1 year.
For Park installations, see the NCC guide for ESQCR safe management for complete advice, but the PIR test frequencies are:
Touring Caravan and Motorhome pitches - annually
Holiday Homes and Park Homes - at least every 3 years
Overhead installations - annually
Inspections on Used Caravans
It is recommended that each time a used Caravan is sold commercially an inspection is carried out and a PIR issued. This is considered by the NCC to be 'Best Practice' for the industry. It should be noted that in the event of any safety issues with a Caravan subsequent to its sale, the supplying dealer could be held liable for any injury or damages caused under the Consumer Protection Act 1987 and the European Product Liability Directive 85/374/EEC.
CITO Training
The minimum standard for a Competent Person for PIR inspection on Caravans is the certificate "Electrical Competence for Touring Caravans & Motorhomes" issued by the caravan industry training organisation (CITO). This CITO course is the only industry recognised training for electrical competency.
The Disclaimer Form
When a PIR has been advised by a workshop or inspector and this service is declined by the customer, to formally record that the service has been offered and declined, the workshop can use the Electrical Disclaimer form.
This should be completed in the presence of the customer and signed by both parties.
The signed copy is given to the customer and a duplicate copy kept to record the agreement between the workshop and the customer.
Yours Faithfully,
Martin Perman
Encl.- PIR SERVICE DISCLAIMER FORM
PIR SERVICE DISCLAIMER FORM
PIR Service Disclaimer Form/090731
1. Vehicle details
Manufacturer:
Model:
Serial Number:
VIN or VRN:
2. Details of company carrying out the service
Company name:
Telephone number:
Company address:
Name:
Signature:
3. Guidance for recipients
This Disclaimer Form confirms that the owner of the caravan or motorhome has been made aware of the requirements for a full periodic inspection and test and the issue of a Periodic Inspection Report at intervals not exceeding 3 years.
4. Recipient declaration
I have had explained to me the purpose of a Periodic Inspection and Test on the electrical installation of my caravan/motorhome* (*delete as appropriate). I have read and understood item 3 above and do not wish for a Periodic Inspection and Test to be carried out on this occasion. I have read and understood the terms of this disclaimer as given overleaf.
Name:
Signature:
Address:
Date:
This form should be kept by the customer and a duplicate copy kept by the company carrying out the service.
PIR SERVICE DISCLAIMER FORM
PIR Service Disclaimer Form/090731
The Inspector who has issued this disclaimer to you is trained to carry out inspection and testing and to issue a Periodic Inspection Report, based on the requirements of BS 7671:2008.
In respect of any legal requirements, the Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations (ESQR) 2002, Regulation 25 clearly requires that an electrical installation cannot be connected to the UK public supply unless the supply provider (the Distributor) is satisfied the installation complies with the relevant provisions of the British Standard - BS 7671:2008 - also referred to as 17th Edition Wiring Regulations.
The Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate makes clear the need to comment on the condition of the existing installation. This is an implied term requiring the issue of a Periodic Report.
PERIODIC INSPECTION AND TEST
Beyond the normal service there is a need to inspect and test the original electrical installation of the caravan or motorhome to ensure the electrical installation is satisfactory for continued use. This condition survey is referred to as a 'PERIODIC INSPECTION AND TEST' and is subject to the issue to the customer of a: 'PERIODIC INSPECTION REPORT'.
HAZARD AND RISK
Periodic inspection and testing is based upon hazard and risk:
- HAZARD: anything with the potential to cause harm
- RISK: the likelihood that the harm will be realised
ELECTRICAL HAZARD
Essentially, when it comes to caravan electrical installations, there are only two hazards, viz:
- Electric shock and burns
- Fire
All electrical installations are hazardous. In other words, they have the potential to cause harm of electric shock and burns and/or fire. The purpose of a periodic inspection and test is to quantify the risk of the hazard being realised.
ELECTRICAL RISK
Essentially, with electrical risk, i.e. the likelihood of harm, there are four recognized levels and these are codified as:
- Code 1: requires urgent attention
- Code 2: requires improvement
- Code 3: requires further investigation
- Code 4: does not comply (but is not a safety risk)
The purpose of a periodic inspection and test is to codify and report the level of risk the electrical installation poses to the user. For instance, where the inspector identifies a code 1 risk this indicates an imminent threat of death or fire 'WHICH MUST BE MADE SAFE' before the installation is handed back to the customer.
The level of risk identified in the periodic inspection and test (other than a Code 1) will determine the action to be taken, and the advice to be given to the customer (the user of the installation).
The issue of a Periodic Inspection Report does not carry the same legal provisions for safety as a certificate, but the inspector must show, so far as is reasonable, that all foreseeable risks are identified and that recommendations to remove such risks have been given. This signed disclaimer confirms the customer has understood the need for issuance of a Periodic Inspection Report but has declined the issuance of said document along with any recommendations made by the inspector to rectify any hazard or risk.
Without prejudice


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

That clarifies the "Disclaimer" but £300 8O is taking the pi**


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## chrisjrv (May 7, 2007)

Hi,
unsurprisingly perhaps I will only be having a van and habitation service carried out next week but I will get clarification when it is done. If you google the current legislation it talks about inspecting the wiring etc. every three years and a new certificate being issued, but at the moment site owners are not expected to ask to see this before you connect to their supply :? . Autosleeper are covering their hearse by asking you to sign to say you were offered the inspection but declined and I can't blame them for that. I must say that I have seen some dodgy wiring jobs on peoples vans and trailer tents 8O 8O 8O . I understand that the regs. also require the inspection of the hook up lead, that should be fun.
Regards,
Chris

just read steles post, just what I found this afternoon, perhaps everone should be aware


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

The NCC tried to introduce a scheme a few years ago where an electrical installation test would be required. They trained up dealers technicians to carry out the tests and they were told to mark the certificates up so that the next test would be required annually. The technicians were not electricians and were talking about having to inspect every inch of cable and disconnect or even remove heaters, fridges etc. to enable the tests to be carried out. It appeared to my fairly well trained electrical eye that they were attempting to do electrical installation tests and not periodic inspection ones. The cost was going to be about £100 and the dealers were rubbing their hands at the prospect of all that cash coming in.
The stick to make owners have the test done was to get the CC and C&CC to refuse you access to their EHU points if you could not show a current certificate. This was quietly dropped when the clubs got swamped with complaints from their members. Practical Caravan forum had a very heated discussion on the subject and I raised the topic on MHF.

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-79694-.html


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

As I understand it all hook up points are RCD protected so anything plugged in that is faulty will simply trip.
Likewise your van, as long as you have an RCD mainswitch a fault will soon become evident.


THE HOOK UP LEAD is probably the most important item. If the earth wire becomes disconnected the RCD in your van cannot operate to protect you, you must push the test button on your van RCD to confirm that you are protected.

It is no coincidence that the earth terminal & connection pin is the BIGGEST of the three in your cable and leads are limited to 25 metres because the resistance of the earth has to be low for your device to trip fast enough.


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## The-Cookies (Nov 28, 2010)

wish i could make money as easy as them, how many £300 checks per day could you fit in, each to their own though , but i know where i would tell them to go stick it 1


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## chrisjrv (May 7, 2007)

Hi,
Steles you have a pm,
Chris


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## clive1821 (Mar 27, 2010)

I usually do electrical inspections at 3years and at a cost of £80.00 + vat as has been mentioned it's the hook up cable that needs testing more often... Yes the RCD will help to protect you in some electrical faults.... The test button on the RCD only a test on the RCD it's self and dose NOT test your installation.


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

It doesn't need to test the installation, it's job is to operate in the event of a fault.


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## clive1821 (Mar 27, 2010)

Yes I think that's was I just indicated it's only a test of the RCD not of the installation and that's why a full test of an installation is needed, and as been mentioned the hook up cable need to be checked more often, just not wanting anyone thinking that the RCD test is an indication of one being totally safe, for example many generators are connected to an RCD you press the test button and it works, but in the event of a cpc fault the trip may well not come out, for various reasons, it's just a matter of people just being aware and making there own judgments.....


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## chrisjrv (May 7, 2007)

Hi,
I seem to have reopened a can of worms that is not going to go away. I read the same items that Seles posted and the recommendation is for your installation to be inspected regularly. If you decline I am sure that your insurance company could say that you have failed to maintain the vehicle and "adjust" your claim accordingly, worst case if your faulty electrics cause a fire and damage or injury to yourselves and other vans or persons.
There is also a difference between a check, and an inspection prior to issuing a test certificate, if there is an accident the person who has issued the certificate is required to attend any inquiry and explain the methods they use for the inspection...can be nasty. At the moment it appears to be only a recommendation, ignore it at your peril. You don't have to pay £300, I will check with Autosleepers why they are so expensive when I go next week but they did say it would take four hours,
regards,
Chris
ps I used to inspect and issue test certs for access machines so I do know what I'm talking about


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

Yes there are loads of motorhomes/caravans catching fire all the time NOT.
The circuit protective devices are there to prevent this happening. 
Unless an installation did not meet regulations when it was built or has been modified incorrectly since it should be safe


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

chrisjrv said:


> Hi,
> I seem to have reopened a can of worms that is not going to go away. I read the same items that Seles posted and the recommendation is for your installation to be inspected regularly. If you decline I am sure that your insurance company could say that you have failed to maintain the vehicle and "adjust" your claim accordingly, worst case if your faulty electrics cause a fire and damage or injury to yourselves and other vans or persons.
> There is also a difference between a check, and an inspection prior to issuing a test certificate, if there is an accident the person who has issued the certificate is required to attend any inquiry and explain the methods they use for the inspection...can be nasty. At the moment it appears to be only a recommendation, ignore it at your peril. You don't have to pay £300, I will check with Autosleepers why they are so expensive when I go next week but they did say it would take four hours,
> regards,
> ...


If takes Autosleepers 4 hours to Inspect the electrical installation as required by a Periodic Inspection then in my opinion they are making the job much more complicated than is required by the regulations.

My son is buying a flat that is 3 years old. The electrical certificate issued at the time of installation recommends an inspection after 10 years. NCC affiliated manufacturers issue a cert at installation that lasts 3 years so why is there talk by dealers of only issuing Periodic Inspection certs for one year? I carried out Periodic Tests at communications sites throughout the Rail Network in much more demanding environments than a caravan or MH and certs were issued for 3 years or more. Equipment was not switched off and all tests could be carried out with it live. There is also no requirement to disconnect every electrical connection and remove items such as fridges, heaters etc to inspect every inch of cable.

As I see it it is all the more reason not to use a NCC affiliated dealers as they are are the only ones using this disclaimer form.


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

There are electricians testing 4 HOUSES per day to make a living so how can they take 4 hrs to inspect/test 1 room wired in 3 pieces of flex :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: AND charge £300 :evil:


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## chrisjrv (May 7, 2007)

Hi,
My last word on the subject,

TITANIC

Chris


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## Telbell (May 1, 2005)

> 3. Guidance for recipients
> This Disclaimer Form confirms that the owner of the caravan or motorhome has been made aware of the requirements for a full periodic inspection and test and the issue of a Periodic Inspection Report at intervals not exceeding 3 years.


But as per chris's long post about PIR's, they are NOT requirements but recommendations.....and as many among us have said, just another attempt to squeeze more cash from us.

Knowing the CC and C&CC (as we do :roll: ) I'd have thought that if those clubs were that concerned about PIR's and the risk of not having one presents to the site )they'd have made it compulsory to make owners produce one when they check in at a site.

And according to the link
http://www.cito.org.uk/attachments/article/143/PIR Guide for Tourers and Motorhomes.pdf
the Disclaimer" isn't compulsory either.

If Clive Mott is around I'd be interested to hear his view

....and yes Titanic was quite a good film :lol:

(sorry-meant steles long post)


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