# Help, please, from you eagle-eyed drivers!



## Alonzo (Jan 31, 2014)

A favour to ask, please, from this amazing community ...

Our MH has had its plates cloned. We received a parking fine notice which included photos of a MH which had exceeded its free parking time at MOTO Services in Scotland, with our plates on it. The MH at MOTO was not ours. We've appealed the Charge Notice and that has been withdrawn. The parking company (apparently) checked the photos and confirmed that the plates on the MH are the same as ours. 

We've identified the bogus MH as a Hymer, we're fairly sure a Hymer 524, so when you're all out and about please will you keep an eye out for a Hymer carrying plates reading FP03 A** ? ... we'd be so grateful, really. The Hymer 524, btw, has a swept valance at the back, and the one in the MOTO photographs had had its bike rack and ladder removed, so all that appeared in the rear photos was the central back window. 

I'm attaching photos of the fake MH, as sent through by the parking company and found online ... can anyone identify the wording on the back of the MH? It doesn't say 'Hymer', and we can't decipher it.


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

It might be worth a phone call to the police and/or DVLA, just to keep them in the loop. They have ANPR cameras everywhere now and might be able to track it. It might also save you from a dawn raid by a swat team if it's used in a bank job or as cover to gas someone!


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## Alonzo (Jan 31, 2014)

Annsman, thank you. We've informed the police, but we're waiting for a return call from them up so that we can update the report, and the Scottish police (the 'fake' MH was logged in Stirling) weren't interested, refused even to take down the plate number or any details at all. The answer we got was "I've talked to my colleague and we're not going to take any action over this." We've contacted the DVLA and our insurers, but it's frightening to find out how few agencies are interested in catching criminals.


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## HarryTheHymer (May 1, 2005)

The MH doesn't look like a Hymer to me. Looks more like a Rollerteam.

I shouldn't imagine your reg has been cloned - just a matter of mistaken identity. 

These ANPR cameras are not infallible especially in low light levels.

Where were you at the time of the photo?

Do you have an alibi that you were miles away from where the alleged offence was captured ?


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> Alonzo said:
> 
> 
> > The parking company (apparently) checked the photos and confirmed that the plates on the MH are the same as ours.
> ...


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Isn't the Hymer 524 an A class? the one in the photos isn't and the 524 doesn't (from what I've seen) have a rear window either.

http://motorhomes.autotrader.co.uk/...ae7f5ee346d3/makemodel/make/hymer/model/b-524


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## Alonzo (Jan 31, 2014)

HarryTheHymer said:


> The MH doesn't look like a Hymer to me. Looks more like a Rollerteam.
> 
> I shouldn't imagine your reg has been cloned - just a matter of mistaken identity.
> 
> ...


Harry ... it doesn't really matter what MH it was, it's not ours! We're not into proving alibis just yet, but yes we do, and thank you for the thought. 
It's hard to imagine that a parking company could happen to invent a plate which corresponds to another MH on a Fiat chassis, isn't it?


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## Alonzo (Jan 31, 2014)

Never owned a Hymer, only had these photos to go on ... the 524 (from whatever year) did have a rear window and a swept back valance, so that's what we've based the assumption on.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Well that 524 is completely different from the 2004 version on Autotrader which is an A class without a rear window.


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

I'll tell you what has happened.....................

Someone in a M/H has parked at MOTO and not paid. The parking company has guessed the registration number from a very poor photo, looked their guess up on the database and when the vehicle type for that registration came back as a M/H they've assumed their guess was correct.
FACT: parking companies DO NOT withdraw their charge notices if they are confident they've got the number plate correct.

There are hundreds of M/Hs with very similar registrations to yours (FP03 A**) because most of Brownhills and Hymer UK vans were registered with "FP" prefix plates. Yours has been mis-read and they know it, they're just trying it on.

If they had a clear photo of your registration they'd have sent it to you as proof along with another (stronger) demand for payment.

Your plate hasn't been cloned, you're just the victim of an unscrupulous parking company who are "trying it on".

PS: You didn't get a "fine", only a court can fine you, you received a demand for payment - ignore it.

PPS: Stanner, isn't the one you're looking at a *B*524 (which would indeed be an "A" class?)


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## HarryTheHymer (May 1, 2005)

Gaspode's explanation sounds extremely plausible, especially the Brownhill's effect with respect to similar reg numbers.

The Hymer shown in Alonzo's pics is a Hymercamp 524 or Hymer-Swing 524 with rear window and luton over standard cab. The rear layout comprises 2 single bunks - hence the central rear window. 

The Hymercamp - Swing had a more boxy luton whilst the Hymercamp had a more rounded luton.

Does't help the OP much cos the database will only show "motorcaravan".


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

> "gaspode"]PPS: Stanner, isn't the one you're looking at a *B*524 (which would indeed be an "A" class?)


You may well be right.

I searched for a "Hymer 524" and that is what came up.

How is someone who has no knowledge of (in deed no interest in) Hymers whatsoever, meant to register that all but insignificant distinction?

PS perhaps I should have gone off and read this thread first and still have been none the wiser.
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-6011-0-days0-orderasc-.html


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## forthpilot (Jul 7, 2012)

Hi Alonzo,
These parking notice demands have no validity in Scotland. One that I received a few years ago, for parking at a large shopping centre in Livingston, escalated to a demand for £689.00 for costs incurred, plus threat of court action and bailiffs removing property. From the original notice, the letters got more threatening, with all sorts of legal prose.
Ignore them, put them straight in the bin.
Check out www.adviceguide.org.uk and put parking on private land in the search box.
I did a bit of research into my own case. The company involved covers a lot of large sites in Scotland. It transpired that their legal team consisted of a council employee, moonlighting through a PO Box, using the name of a reputable law firm some 30 miles away.

Stewart.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

So a HymerCAMP/SWING/Whatever 524 is (completely) different from a Hymer B 524 then.


A really logical numbering system there then.................. :roll:


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## Alonzo (Jan 31, 2014)

*Thank you all!*

Thank you ... so much useful info from you all. We've asked for clear and irrefutable evidence (decent photos) from CP Plus but, surprisingly (!) they haven't come back. We spoke to the RAC's legal team today and they confirmed that it's more than likely to be a scam. Please God it is, but I wonder if any other MH'ers have received the same photos and the same demand? In a lot of cases it must be quicker and easier to pay up the £40 within 14 days, rather than waste days on fighting something. I've got a bit of work to do with CP Plus' photos to prove that they've tried to scam us - will let you all know if we get any result from it.


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## forthpilot (Jul 7, 2012)

Hi Alonzo,
Another scam that we had for a while, was private companies, acting as traffic wardens on new housing developments in our cities, putting stickers on car windows, threatening clamping and fines for people parking in 'Resident Only Parking Zones'. Most of these roads, although 'adopted' by the Council, had no official restrictions.
It went to Law, and the ruling was that 'Clamping' under Scot's law was in fact an act of 'theft' in that it deprived an owner of the use of his or her property. 
We do have vehicles removed by official means when causing a serious obstruction, and these are described in the web site I quoted.

Stewart.


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## HarryTheHymer (May 1, 2005)

Hi Alonzo 

Have you considered sending a back and front pic of your MH with reg clearly visible.

You could also say that you have no intention of paying because the camera images don't look anything like your Rapido. 

End of story - hopefully. 

PS. I would imagine you could claim under your "legal rights" to request compensation for stress and time spent in rebutting your defence.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

> "HarryTheHymer"
> Hi Alonzo
> 
> Have you considered sending a back and front pic of your MH with reg clearly visible.
> ...


I would send them an invoice for your "admin fee" for dealing with their attempt to extort money from you with menaces.
I would suggest a figure exactly the same as their attempted "charge" to you.

Halved if paid within 14 days. :wink:


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> HarryTheHymer said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Alonzo
> ...


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## HarryTheHymer (May 1, 2005)

rayc said:


> > HarryTheHymer said:
> >
> >
> > > Hi Alonzo
> ...


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I think now you don't need a matching "tax disc" we'll see a lot more cloning of cars and perhaps motorhomes too.


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## Alonzo (Jan 31, 2014)

I spent some time yesterday blowing up the photos sent through by CP Plus after we'd asked for clear and irrefutable photos showing the plates clearly legible on the motorhome. These are obviously the only photos these guys have, and in order to read the number plates they would have had to do exactly what I did, ie, blow the photos up to a sensible size. Ha ha ... what a surprise! There's absolutely no way that they or anyone else could decipher the figures on the plates. I'll try and attach the photos (had trouble trying to do this last night) - these turkeys are clearly just scammers who, as someone on here suggested, 'harvest' plates for later use. :evil:
(Still can't post attachments, no idea why)


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## HarleyDave (Jul 1, 2007)

Photos are probably "too big"

File size needs to be about 100Kb as I recollect

Yes - I know it says 1Mb in the notes - but that's not correct

Cheers

Dave


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## Alonzo (Jan 31, 2014)

100Kb?!! That explains it, then; I was posting 2 x 750Kb.


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## Alonzo (Jan 31, 2014)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> I think now you don't need a matching "tax disc" we'll see a lot more cloning of cars and perhaps motorhomes too.


It's inevitable, surely. One of the most stupid decisions that government has ever made (although it's hard to single out any one of them), particularly since there are countless web sites selling plates online, with no proof of ownership required. Surely, instead of just trying to catch 
crocodiles it's time to drain the swamp?


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

CP Plus huh? Should have said at the start. I had a run in with them a few years ago. The internet is awash with incidents of them trying it on with people.

My advice and the general advice on most forums is to just bin anything from them and ignore them.


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## Alonzo (Jan 31, 2014)

barryd said:


> CP Plus huh? Should have said at the start. I had a run in with them a few years ago. The internet is awash with incidents of them trying it on with people.
> 
> My advice and the general advice on most forums is to just bin anything from them and ignore them.


I did, but not at the outset. The issue wasn't simply a parking charge, it was charging us for a vehicle which we don't own.


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## Alonzo (Jan 31, 2014)

Final attempt to post the massively blown-up photos which are the only images they could have had to go on. If anyone on here can decipher a plate from these there's a bottle of wine waiting for you!


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> Alonzo said:
> 
> 
> > The issue wasn't simply a parking charge, it was charging us for a vehicle which we don't own.
> ...


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## Alonzo (Jan 31, 2014)

rayc said:


> > Alonzo said:
> >
> >
> > > The issue wasn't simply a parking charge, it was charging us for a vehicle which we don't own.
> ...


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Given the fallibility of ANPR & given the ease of cloning number plates I think these companies should be required to submit their claims based on the vehicle's VIN number rather than the (observed) reg number.

That will require an increase in resolution of their cameras.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

It'll require a bit more than better cameras, not all VINs are in the windscreen.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> It'll require a bit more than better cameras, not all VINs are in the windscreen.


Exactly! :wink:


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## Alonzo (Jan 31, 2014)

*Reply from CP Plus*

Following our email asking CP+ to provide clear photos of the plates actually on the vehicle (all the reg plate photos they've sent through have been images separate from the main photos) this was their reply today:

"Dear Sir,

Thank you for your email.

The photographs we have sent you clearly show infra-red images of the registration in question and, as such, they suffice to demonstrate the original claim raised by our company.

We can once again confirm that your PCN has been cancelled, as previously detailed.

We can also confirm that this case is now closed and that, as such, we are unable to correspond further."

They're now claiming infra-red ... anyone know more about this than we do?


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

That is just a way of them not having to say they were wrong.

cabby


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: Reply from CP Plus*



> Alonzo said:
> 
> 
> > F
> ...


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## annie2106 (Feb 17, 2015)

hello


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## annie2106 (Feb 17, 2015)

Hello Alonzo

I'm really hoping someone can help us in our search to find our Hymer C524 which was stolen on 17th December 2014 in Dumfries & Galloway. We had only had our Hymer since July 2014 & have many fond memories of the times we had with it .
We are certain it was stolen to order as our registration plates where left smashed to pieces at the site of the theft & two blue strips of cellophane were also found at the scene which were obviously removed from the new plates the theives had brought with them to replace ours.
We're now wondering as yours is the same model if the theives have cloned your registration plates to our Motorhome.
Many thanks in advance
annie


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Bump


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## StephandJohn (Sep 3, 2007)

Hi Annie
What a sad thing to happen to you. Have you PMd Alonzo - he may pick that up if he's not looing on here.
Steph


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

What an amazing thread. Not only giving us all cause for concern with CP Plus but also drawing our attention to some poor soul who has had her van stolen.
Unlike the movies, I somehow doubt there is any link but the lady with the stolen van could have indicated the vans number-plate, you just never know.....

Alan


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Alan 

If referring to the stolen MH and it is Annie's, on previous page, did you note her number plates were left in pieces at the scene of the crime.

Geoff


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## HarryTheHymer (May 1, 2005)

There maybe a link between the stolen MH and the images shown to Alonzo.

The Hymer Camp 524 is a pretty rare model (or C524 as mentioned by the owner of the stolen MH).

Furthermore, the stolen MH was stolen in Scotland and the parking offence was also committed in Scotland.

It makes you wonder a bit !!!


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## Alonzo (Jan 31, 2014)

*Developments*

Plates definitely cloned. Annie's MH with our plates involved in an aggravated (lump hammers) robbery on a cash van. Wouldn't it be reassuring if the police would take this seriously?


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Alonzo said:


> Plates definitely cloned. Annie's MH with our plates involved in an aggravated (lump hammers) robbery on a cash van. Wouldn't it be reassuring if the police would take this seriously?


Eh!! Blimey! Shocking news but am I missing something here? Why would anyone use a motorhome to do a robbery? Shouldnt it be a Mk2 Jag or a big White Citroen?

Please tell us more.


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