# HELP! Electric wont switch off when our engine is running!



## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Aargh I could scream!

We have just returned from Scotland but whilst away we developed yet another battery charging problem this time with the engine management (I believe is what my husband called it?) We have only just got the first problem resolved which turned out to be a loose connection to the LED panel but this latest problem is an entirely different problem entirely and despite ringing Auto Trail. Fiat & Sargent no one was able to give us much advice over the telephone and each one claimed the problem lay with someone other than them! Auto Trail claimed it lay with Sargent, Sargent claimed it lay with Fiat and Fiat seemed totally clueless and after saying they would look into the matter and get back to us within the hour they never returned the promised call! Sadly as there did not appear to be anything we could do like simply changing a fuse or something, we just had to play safe and stay on campsites whilst touring around Scotland and regretfully we were therefore unable to wild camp like we occasionally like to do. Never mind we still had a great time but we now need to take the motorhome into Camper UK for further investigation as no-one seems to have a simple answer to the problem!

Anyway, Its such a pain having to take the motorhome in for warranty work all the time as it's a 90 mile round trip each time and so we just wondered if anyone else has ever experienced the same problem with their motorhome and especially the new Fiat Ducato cab and If so, what was the solution? If it is a simple case of changing a fuse then it would save a hell of a lot of time and hassle!

We have a 2007 Auto Trail Cheyenne 840S with new Fiat Ducato cab and we first noticed that the electric step was not retracting when we started up the engine and neither was the fridge working on 12 volt. As this had happened once before in our previuous Swift motorhome my husband assumed it was either a fuse that had blown or a problem with the relay switch and both problems he knew how to rectify himself. So no real problem we thought and as the step worked via the door switch and key fob it was not a major concern at that precise moment and hubby intended to put this right when he had a suitable moment to spare. However, we later realised that when he struck up the engine the electrics in the habitation were not switching off at all and further investigation showed that the M50 Sargent Control Box (I think that was the correct model number) in the habitation area was not receiving the required signal that recognised that the engine is running and as a result the electrics were not switching off automatically as they should do. There was an added problem too, as even though we could switch the electrics off manually at the LED panel over the habitation door the engine wasn't able to charge the leisure battery whilst we were on the move which meant we had to rely soley on mains electricity for power! 

Like I say, we spoke to Auto Trail, Sargent and Fiat and neither seemd to have any real idea what the problem could be and so the advice was that we probably had a faulty Sargent M50 control box! My husband just wondered if there may be a fuse somewhere between the engine and the M50 control box and if so, does anyone know if there is and where it is located? He has checked with a special screw driver all the fuses in the M50 control box and they are all fine! By the way there is a light showing in the M50 control box which we were informed by Sargent proves that there is defintiely power getting through. 

Over to you chaps (or chapesses!)  

Sue


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## Broom (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi Sue

I am unable to help with your problem, but can agree with you that all the time and money spent on travelling and waiting for the warranty works to be corrected/repaired is a pain.

Hope you get sorted quickly.

Best Regards
Broom


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## Briarose (Oct 9, 2007)

Hi Sue is it worth a phone call to Mick at Lincs Caravans, he might just be able to help or even Metz Service is supposed to be very good too...........he is mobile but been doing the job for years. I know you would have to pay but if it is something simple it might work out cheaper than the fuel etc etc worth a thought.


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Broom said:


> Hi Sue
> 
> I am unable to help with your problem, but can agree with you that all the time and money spent on travelling and waiting for the warranty works to be corrected/repaired is a pain.
> 
> ...


Thanks Broom,

How is your new Auto Trail behaving? I hope you are not experiencing too many warranty issues? I am really pleased with ours and just love the layout but we have had problems with the flipping electrics several times now and it always happens when we are away on holiday or just about to go. Seeing as we have had it less than a year it seems unacceptable that a vehicle you buy in order to enjoy the freedom of going away whenever the fancy takes you has to be spoiled by spending a lot of the time in workshops having warranty issues resolved! I know it seems to be the norm with most UK motorhomes to have technical problems and we had loads of niggly things go wrong during the warranty period with our previous model too; a Swift Kontiki and again we bought this vehicle from new! Why do you think this is and why do new motorhomes seem to have so many teething problems? We certainly wouldn't accept this as standard with any other product or vehicle we purchased would we?

Anyway, I wont go on as there's little point in getting myself all worked up about it, so we will just take a deep breath and count to 10 LOL ............... but it is really frustrating and we could well do without the hassle!

Best regards

Sue


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## Broom (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi Sue

We are happy with the layout of our Motorhome, but, have become disappointed with the defects/faults.

We are waiting for 2 shower walls and the shower tray to be replaced, plastic surround to habitation door handles has broken, and just discovered in the rain yesterday that the sliding widows are letting in rain when the direction of the rain is from the rear of the Motorhome.

Quite despondent about the whole matter when you consider that the only work that was undertaken in 4 years of owning our old Autocruise Stargazer was renewing the awning light.

Can only hope that things and the weather improve.

Best Regards and keep smiling
Broom


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## 110162 (Feb 25, 2008)

Hi There
Check the output plugs on the bottom of the control unit as I have found several units burning the pins out, hence stopping 12v supply to the motorhome 12v system
Regards Angus


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi Sue,

please do not let yourself be sent back and forth between AutoTrail, Sargent and Fiat. This is a warranty issue, and for warranty issues always the *dealer* is responsible. So let him sort out the stuff and do the rat race between the 3 companies.

Technically speaking, I think that your conclusion that it has something to do with the signal from the engine to the control box is quite right. Now I know that with Fiats until 2006 this signal came directly from the alternator, on a line called "D+". I do not know whether with the 07 models it still takes this way or comes from somewhere else.

So the simplest explanation for your troubles could be that this D+ cable leading to your Sargent box is broken or loose. Do not expect this cable to have any fuse, as it is a signal cable no real power is transferred over it, so no fuse required. If you know which cable it is at the control box, you can also check it yourself with a volt meter: While the engine is running, there should be about 12 volts against the chassis. Depending on the charge status of the engine battery, there might however be a slight delay (5-10 secs) before the signal comes up.

Another possibility would be, of course, a defective control box. If the signal arrives correctly at the box, and this does not switch over, something is wrong with it.

And I think I have heard from other motorhomers with new Fiat chassis, that there are sometimes compatibility issues with control boxes. Maybe, with the new chassis the signal has a higher or lower voltage than with the old, and AutoTrail has used the wrong version of the Sargent box?

Hope that helps a bit.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Sorry I can't be specific as I do not know your MH. It appears that the control box does not know that the engine is running [alternator giving an output]. 
You have 2 things not working that are both operated by the control panel on my MH - the fridge 12v supply and the battery charging. I do not know what controls your step automatically but it has got to be from the same source.

A couple of thins to sort out then. Is the control box getting a feed to let it know the engine is running and how is the step sensing carried out.


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Thanks guys and when hubby comes in from work I will let him read your replies and hopefully this might solve the problem. If not it looks like it will have to go in for repair!

As regards the dealer Boff - well unfortuntely for us that is Brownhills and we stopped using them last November due to appalling service etc. Since last November we have used Camper UK for any warranty issues. We have been well impressed with Camper UK but as they are not authorised to carry out Fiat warranty work we wondered if it may be simpler to resolve the problem if the dealer was able to tackle all issues under one roof? Bearing this in mind, we decided that as our problem maybe on the Fiat side and Brownhills are Fiat approved, we would therefore give them another chance, especially as they have had major management changes since their MBO and we hoped this may have resulted in many changes for the better! Well no such luck, I rang them a few days back and a very helpful and pleasant young lady took our call and I explained we were touring around Scotland in our motorhome and we had developed this electrical problem. She seemed genuinely concerned and I was impressed with her attitude so I thought mmmn much better than before and their receptionists must have been instructed to be more customer friendly. She took down my telephone number; promising to get a technecian to ring me asap! What a joke and after 3 days of waiting the promised call never did happen so I presume we had either been forgotten or pushed to one side? This was a common occurence in the past with Brownhills and more often than not they failed to return promised calls and this latest incident was sufficient for us to decide that we certainly weren't gonna fanny around with Brownhills and if that is an indication of their improved service then for us personally, it is a case of thanks but no thanks! Never mind, If needs be we will take our motorhome into Camper UK for the habitation area and the Truck & Van company for the Fiat Ducato side and even though its a pain in the backside rather that, than give Brownhills any further chances!

Thanks again and with any luck your replies will help us to reslove the problem one way or another!

Sue


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## Broom (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi Sue

Brownhills have lost their Fiat authorisation due to the company change, this is direct from their aftercare service on 13th June 2008,

Hope this helps
Broom


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## Roger7webster (Oct 10, 2006)

My 2006 Swift Ace has a relay that is activated by the alternator when the engine starts and cuts out the habitation 12v electrics
This is I believe only fitted to UK built motor homes to achieve some sort of type approval. I disconnected mine from day one and have all the services available when the engine is running. Perhaphs there is not too much to worry about (hopefully)


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Roger7webster said:


> My 2006 Swift Ace has a relay that is activated by the alternator when the engine starts and cuts out the habitation 12v electrics
> This is I believe only fitted to UK built motor homes to achieve some sort of type approval. I disconnected mine from day one and have all the services available when the engine is running. Perhaphs there is not too much to worry about (hopefully)


Really Roger and are you absolutely sure this is not dangeous? If not, then maybe it is not such a serious problem for us after all? Just one thing though what about the charging of the leisure battery when on the move? Our leisure battery is not charging either which makes it a bit of a problem if we want to wild camp or stop overnight without an electric hook up and often a long run is vital so as to recharge our batteries. We have a honda generator but that is not always a solution and as we all know a lot of people have issues with folk using generators so a fully charged leisure battery is quite important to us.

I hope you are right though as I quite fancy the idea of having power whilst on the move.

Sue


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi again Sue!



Sonesta said:


> Really Roger and are you absolutely sure this is not dangeous? If not, then maybe it is not such a serious problem for us after all?


Roger is right: This relay that cuts off the habitation electrics when starting the engine is a UK-only "feature", no, absolutely no continental van has such. So if it were only that, then no problem.

In your case however it is also the fridge which does not switch over, and the leisure battery not being charged. Both are serious, because they make proper usage of the van practically impossible. Not only wild camping, but also long hauls on the road in summer are not really possible, or do you want to run the fridge on gas while driving?

Still, all three most probably have the same cause, which is lack of the D+ signal from the alternator.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Once again thanks Gerthard and everyone else who has taken the time to reply to my question it has been much appreciated.  Hubby is going to have another look into it today sometime so fingers crossed. 

We really are hoping he can sort it out himself as there are no dealers around here, as far as we know, who are authorised to undertake the warranty issues on both the Auto Trail and Fiat side and we therefore envisage being passed from pillar to post with this one. I think we will ring Auto Trail directly if my husband cannot sort it out himself and put the ball in their court as it isn't our fault that Brownhills have lost their Fiat authorisation and have given such poor service is it and whatever happens we surely should be covered under our warranty for such problems as this? What do customers do in situations like ours and what happens when the fault is connected to both the habitation and Fiat Ducato side as many dealers sell motorhomes and not all of them are Fiat Approved. Ooh aint it all complicated? :roll: 

Sue


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Just a quick update. Hubby has now checked all of the fuses and all of the suggestions you lovely folk suggested and nothing seems to be wrong there - so it looks like we probably have a faulty Sargent M50 Control Box on our hands! 

I decided a phone call to Auto Trail was necessary and have just spoken to a lovely gentleman by the name of Colin who works in the Customer Services department. What a credit to his company he is and he was so helpful. He agreed that it did sound like the most likely explanation was a faulty M50 control box and if that was the case then the problem is on the Auto Trail side and any approved service centre could carry out the work but if it were a problem on the Fiat side, as Sargent had suggested when we spoke to them about it, then obviously Camper UK or Brownhills could not carry out that work and it would then have to go to a Fiat approved service centre for that side. I explained we did not wish to use Brownhills and although we were very impressed with Camper UK we did not fancy having to mess about going backwards and forwards in order to resolve and diagnose this particular problem. He explained the nearest dealer that could carry out the work on both sides was in Taunton which is rather a long journey to say the least and so he suggested we take it back to the Auto Trail factory and they would sort it out for us! As Auto Trail is in Grimsby and only an hours drive away we are delighted with his offer and it will mean we will get it all sorted under one roof. Well done Auto Trail and thank you Colin.  

I will keep you all informed but as I am sure you can appreciate I feel a lot more optimistic now and we are thrilled with the speedy response by Auto Trail.

Sue


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## Mike48 (May 1, 2005)

Blimey! Another helpful manufacturer. Is the industry at last beginning to get its act together. Not surprised to hear about the non response from Brownhills. They might have changed ownership but the old problems seemingly remain the same.


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## Broom (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi Sue

Just as a reference I have been advised that Dick Lane of Bradford do Fiat and Auto Trail servicing.

Best Regards
Broom


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

gelathae said:


> Blimey! Another helpful manufacturer. Is the industry at last beginning to get its act together. Not surprised to hear about the non response from Brownhills. They might have changed ownership but the old problems seemingly remain the same.


Yes we were well impressed with Auto Trail so watch this space and I will let you know how they deal with problem once the motorhome has been back to the factory.

As for Brownhills I was willing to give them another chance but that's it now and we wont be bothering again! It will be Camper UK of Lincoln who get our business from now on and our dealings with them so far have been very positive. Can't fault Camper UK at all; a family owned business who take customer satisfaction seriously but sadly they cannot do warranty issues on the Fiat side.

Sue


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Broom said:


> Hi Sue
> 
> Just as a reference I have been advised that Dick Lane of Bradford do Fiat and Auto Trail servicing.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that info Broom it's greatly appreciated. 

Auto Trail have been really helpful though and its going into their factory on Thursday for the work to be carried out there. How's that for service? As Grimsby is only 40 miles from us we are well happy and Colin in customer services says he doesn't envisage it being a long job either.

What about you and your problems ............ who is doing yours?

Sue


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## Broom (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi Sue

I am still with Brownhills so far so good, but am aware of others problems, with them loosing the Fiat side will have to look at alternatives when the first service is due.

Will keep all posted in my post ''New Motorhome 3 months on'' in Motorhome Chit Chat

Best regards
Broom


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Broom said:


> Hi Sue
> 
> I am still with Brownhills so far so good, but am aware of others problems, with them loosing the Fiat side will have to look at alternatives when the first service is due.
> 
> ...


Oh didn't realise you were using Brownhills but if they are looking after you, then that's the main thing and you must speak as you find.

Give me a link to your post and I will follow your experiences with interest.

Regards

Sue


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## Tucano (Jun 9, 2006)

Broom,
How about Richard Baldwins of Halifax who deal in Fiat and Autotrail,
they must be closer to you.
Regards,
Norman


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## Broom (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi Sue

Don't know how to do a link but will try later

Hi Norman

Saving Baldwins as a back up, but they are not in house Fiat authorised, bought previous Motorhome from them had no problems, went to Brownhills for a better deal.


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Hi there Broom,

I have saved you the trouble and found the link to the thread you mentioned regarding your new motorhome www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-41139-.html Phew Broom ....... it's a long one isn't it and will sure keep me busy for a while reading it all? :lol:

I will put in my watched topics section and follow it with great interest.

Regards.

Sue


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Just a another quick update for anyone following this topic or who may be experiencing a similar problem and that is to say I have just received a really helpful and respectful PM from Karl at Sargent. He has given several possible explanations as to what the problem may be and has asked me to keep him informed of the outcome. 

I must say I am very impressed with both the response from Auto Trail and now the helpful PM from Sargent and I salute them both for their professionalism and care. Things go wrong that's life - but when you recieve good customer service like this, it certainly helps to minimise the inconvenience greatly and also helps we often agitated customers to remain calm and fair. 

WELL DONE Auto Trail and Sargent.  

Sue


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## Broom (Oct 8, 2007)

Sonesta said:


> Phew Broom ....... it's a long one isn't it
> 
> Sue
> 
> ...


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Hellooooooooooooooooooo,

Our motorhome is all fixed now and thought all of you who have been so kind as to offer me advice and suggestions might like to know the outcome?

Hubby took our motorhome over to the Auto Trail factory in Grimsby this morning as arranged and after the engineers inspection, the fault was very quickly diagnosed. Apparantley, the Trigger wire from the Fiat engine to the Sargent EM50 Control Box was either broken or had come disconnected and so the problem, as Karl from Sargent had suspected, lay on the Fiat side. Auto Trail replaced the trigger wire and hey ho everything is now up and running again! Yippee we once more have lift off!

So thank you very much Auto Trail for you prompt and efficient service, thank you to Karl at Sargent for your help and assistance and thank you everyone who has come forward on MHF with tips and advice.  

Hee hee reading my last paragraph sounds like I have won an oscar or something and am thanking all my friends, family and fans for their support! ha ha ha :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Sue


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi Sue,

great to hear that the problem is finally solved! 

Just one more comment. This:


Sonesta said:


> Apparantley, the Trigger wire from the Fiat engine to the Sargent EM50 Control Box was either broken or had come disconnected and so the problem, as Karl from Sargent had suspected, lay on the Fiat side.


is in fact the AutoTrail side, not the Fiat side. Because this wire is fitted by Autotrail while building the motorhome onto the Fiat chassis.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

I wonder why a trigger from the alternator is still used on motorhomes? In the caravan world the relay fitted in the car to feed the caravan fridge and battery charging is voltage sensing and operates on the rise in voltage when the alternator is running.


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Hi Boff,

I have been speaking to Colin Treacher this afternoon and we have been discussing the point you raised regarding the Trigger Wire and Colin explained that the information you posted was not relevant to the new Fiat Chassis.

Auto Trail are not currently members of MHF and so I suggested Colin send me an email with all the relevant info and I will copy and paste the details onto the forum on Auto Trail's behalf. This will then enable yourself and any other members who may come across this same problem in the future to be fully informed of the latest and up to date information regarding this matter.

These are as follows:

*Only the Fiat X244 chassis had the Alternator Trigger Wire fitted by Auto-Trail.

Since the arrival of the new Fiat X250 chassis which uses the Can-Bus wiring system the Trigger Wire has been part of the Fiat loom and terminates at a connecter block at the base of the B pillar, into which plugs the EM50.*

Hope the above information helps to clarify any queries?

Sue


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi!



rayc said:


> I wonder why a trigger from the alternator is still used on motorhomes? In the caravan world the relay fitted in the car to feed the caravan fridge and battery charging is voltage sensing and operates on the rise in voltage when the alternator is running.


Using a trigger signal is the most simple way of doing this. In a caravan however this signal is, depending on the kind of plug used for the connection between caravan and vehicle, not always available. So either a manual switch, or a voltage sensor must be used.



Sonesta said:


> Since the arrival of the new Fiat X250 chassis which uses the Can-Bus wiring system the Trigger Wire has been part of the Fiat loom and terminates at a connecter block at the base of the B pillar, into which plugs the EM50.


Thank you Sue, that was indeed new to me. I am only used to pre-can-bus Fiat chassis, and here the MH builder had to lay this cable.

So in your case the Fiat loom was faulty, I guess.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Sonesta (May 10, 2005)

Boff said:


> Thank you Sue, that was indeed new to me. I am only used to pre-can-bus Fiat chassis, and here the MH builder had to lay this cable.
> 
> So in your case the Fiat loom was faulty, I guess.
> 
> ...


You are welcome Gerthard and thank you too. 

All the best.

Sue


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## Broom (Oct 8, 2007)

Hi Sue

Quickly fixed and back on the road, great, exactly whats required.

Best Regards
Broom


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## Sargent (Feb 1, 2008)

*Alternator Trigger wire*

Hi Sonesta,

Pleased to hear the good news fingers crossed all will be well for some time. I just thought I'd take the opportunity to explain a little about what this wire does and why it has to be fitted.

The wire from the alternator as per previous posts does control charging of the leisure battery whilst on the move. It also automatically controls the step to retract when the engine is started. Supplies the fridge electrics so your food is kept cold whilst driving. Also the legal part we have to fit this wire to ensure that the control panel shuts down all the habitation electrics whilst the engine is running, of course disabling this wire will allow the electrics to carry on being used but this isn't recommended as some of the other handy features will be disabled. Also as a final recommendation for not disabling this wire, it may affect your warranty should it cause any further problems and if involved in an accident caused by any peice of equipment being used that isn't supposed to be could also invalidate your insurance.

I hope this short explaination helps everyone else out there who has any queries regarding this very important wire. As always please PM me if you do have any questions.

Best Regards

Karl Hulse
Sargent Electrical Services Ltd.


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## AberdeenAngus (Jul 26, 2008)

BUT........if it was the trigger wire broken, why was no-one able to diagnose this ?


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## camper69 (Aug 30, 2007)

*Re: Alternator Trigger wire*



Sargent said:


> Also the legal part we have to fit this wire to ensure that the control panel shuts down all the habitation electrics whilst the engine is running


Why would this only be the case in the UK? Thought the atandards were the same cross Europe.

Derek


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