# Bessacarr, Kontiki or Autotrail?



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

A real motorhome post at last!! 

I am trying to compile a list of Motorhomes that best meet our requirements for our next van.

I would have bought German but I think thats out of the question as they simply isnt a van that suits us.

I have used the search facility on OAL before but cannot get it to work at the moment so have posted over there.

What I would like to do is compare some Bessacarrs, Swift Kontiki and Autotrail Apache models

I have quite specific requirements

Must have a rear lounge and front dinette
Must have a good size luton
Must have a very good payload with enough spare on the back for a rack and scooter.

Really would like it on an Alko Chassis with short overhang like the Kontiki. I think this makes considerable difference to the handling with a scooter on, makes it easier to get in and out of the van as its lower and because of the shorter overhang it has reduces the strain and weight on the back axle.

Basically a replacement for what we have now which is a Kontiki 640.

I looked at an Apache 700se the other day at the Harrogate show and it ticked most of the boxes and being on a 4250kg chassis it had an 800kg payload but it wasnt on the Alko chassis.

There are so many models and chassis with differing payloads I need to narrow the choices down as much as possible so when I start looking I know exactly which models I need to concentrate on. It would be great if there was a comparison spreadsheet somewhere. Whichever model it is is going to be on the top weight chassis I think so sub 4000kg is probably no good.

I would like to go as new as possible but definitely used. Budget will be £26k to £35K tops, preferably somewhere in the middle.


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## PeteFarnell (Nov 20, 2013)

Hi Barry, I don't have enough experience of the different brands to be able to help, but if you have any specific questions about the Apache 700 then fire away - we bought one new in 2013 when I retired and we've done nearly 18,000 miles in it in that time. It's a rear lounge, front dinette, luton cab model.


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## Revise (May 13, 2012)

Barry,
We bought the Kontike 649 lsat year. 2015 model 3.0 Auto
The only thing that lets the van down is Swifts quality control. Overall the build quality has been very good. But small niggly things that should have not have got out of the factory have been picked up by myself over the past 10 months. But 95% of the faults have been rectified by myself and Brownhills. The last 5% could have been done by now but I am waiting for the first service. 
The ride was a bit harsh on the 80PSI the dealer said I should be running at. But at 60PSI it relies better and is a lot smoother and quieter. 
Let me know if you need any more details.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks very much chaps.

A question for both of you then. Do you know the max running weight of your vans and available payload? Front and rear axles would be really useful but overall will do.

I dont know if many bother to take their vans to a weighbridge but I am hoping someone will come along who has and can give me the real figures they obtained.

The only other slight worry that concerns me is some of the newer Brit vans seem to have external water tanks. Ours is internal so Winter camping down to sub zero temperatures is not a problem. Can you put heaters in?


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## philoaks (Sep 2, 2008)

Hi Barry,

Having owned both Swift and Autotrail then (although they aren't perfect) I would say the attention to detail with Autotrail is much better than Swift.

The overall dimensions of the Apache 700 look similar to our Dakota. Ours is rated at 4250kg but runs close to the maximum rear axle weight with just a towbar and cycle rack on the back. If the Apache is similar then I suspect it's highly unlikely that you'd get Pig 2 on the back.

The weight situation isn't helped by Autrotrail's decision to put the waste tank between the axles and the fresh water tank behind the rear axle  This means that we can't legally travel with a full tank of fresh water as it takes the rear axle over its limit.

I wouldn't rule out an Autotrail but you'll need to do some careful calculations first.

P.S. The Autotrail Scout is the same layout but is built on an Alko chassis (the latest ones are anyway, not sure about the earlier ones).

Phil


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Brilliant Phil. Just the kind of info I needed. I reckon Ill need 300kg spare on the back axle to be safely within the limits.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Out of the three I would go for the Autotrail myself. Have you considered a LHD from across the channel.You do spend most of your trips over there.

cabby


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## stewartwebr (May 27, 2005)

Having owned both Swift and Auto trails and looking through them recently at the shows, Autotrail win hands down in my book. Much better build quality by far. Only thing letting them down at the moment is the fact they do not install Alde Heating.

Sorry can't tell you much more than that


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## Kirbz73 (Nov 22, 2015)

I've only had a swift and the build quality isn't great but you tend to get more van for your money so it's a trade off I guess. Ours suffers from dodgy screws that are not big enough, wood peeling everywhere and we found stuff like this on the several ones we saw


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## deefordog (Dec 31, 2013)

Barry - so you're looking again but not a Bailey I guess ?? http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/20-motorhome-chitchat/138521-bailey-vs-hymer.html

Single or tag axle as this would rule out the Kontiki 649?


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## PeteFarnell (Nov 20, 2013)

From the Apache 700 handbook. 2012 model year.

Max gross weight 4250KG
Mass in running order 3520KG
User Payload 730KG
The water tanks are both external but can be heated (optional extra)

Vehicle Specifications
Please Note:
The Mass in Running Order includes a 75kg allowance for the driver and 90% full fuel tank, gas bottles and water tank.
All weights quoted are for standard vehicles. Please take care to ensure that you have allowed for the masses of all items
you intend to carry in the motorcaravan. e.g: Passengers, optional equipment and personal effects such as clothing, food,
pets, bicycles etc.
WARNING
Under no circumstances should the maximum gross weight of the vehicle be exceeded.
MAX.GARAGE DIMENSIONS: Length: 2170mm, Width: 1265mm, Height: 1185mm.
GARAGE DOOR APERTURE: Width: 745mm, Height: 1094mm
HEATING GRADE All Auto-Trail vehicles have a minimum heating classification of grade 3. This means that your vehicle
can maintain an average temperature of at least 20 degrees centigrade when the outside temperature is -15 degrees
centigrade.
GAS INPUT OF APPLIANCES
Fire = 3.9kw. Water Heater = 1.7kw. Cooker (3 gas burners) = 8.3kw. Fridge = 0.19kw.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks again everyone and cheers Pete for that detailed info.

Yes Paul I think i have given up on a Bailey. They do have one that fits the bill but there has been an awful lot of problems ive seen on the forums plus it wont fit on the drive.  Not a problem if we move to France or go full timing but who knows what will happen.

I Wouldnt rule out a tag 649 or an Arapaho but the tag Kontikis are a lot of money still.

Cabby, lhd drive would make sense especially if we leave the UK but I cannot find anything that suits.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Did you dismiss the Hymer then Barry?

We're looking too, Autotrail are at the top of the list, will consider Hymens and Laikas, Swift if that's all we can afford.

Budget is out biggest problem, if I forego the Harley we can get a good van, but I'm at an age where if I don't get my last one now, I won't get one, very much in two minds.

Barry, can you already drive over 3500kg or do you need to take the test?


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

The Bess e795 ticks most of your boxes but I think the payload may be too small for you. Check it out. We thought it was a good MH for the dosh. We had a 3.0litre engine in ours which was great.

We think the build quality is better on the Autotrail we have but it is 4 years newer so that might affect it. Oodles of payload for our model but I'm not sure across the range. I get better mpg out of the Euro 5 engine than the 4 as well.

Great research subject for you though :grin2:

Graham :smile2:


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Regarding build quality, I have no direct knowledge of British vans as I have owned 4 Hymers.
The first was a 2000 over cab and it was solid, the internal woodwork was hard wood ply and screws held in v tight.
The next was a 2004 low profile Tramp, and the bodywork was just as good, bt the internal ply was softer and if you tightemed a screw, you could strip the thread.
Our 3rd, was a 2011/12 Exsis I, and as the Exsis I, is a light weight vehicle, I thought it could be less durable, BUT it was no different to the 2004 model, nothing fell off and no cupboard door catches broke.
Our latest is a 2010 top (ish) SL Star edition. The internal woodwork is certainly top end, much detail with leather seating and leather also built into the furniture. The wood is the same hardness as the last two vans, you could strip a screw, if you tightened it very hard. The cupboard catches do look flimsy, but the only one which is suspect is the wardrobe one as it has those silly rods.
I don't expect to have any issues with the build quality as we do treat our van well and don't knock it about.
I keep hearing that the newer Hymers are not as good as the older ones.
Well, the wood work is softer, reducing weight, but I have had no issues!
I think the problem is, that manufactures, have reduced weight as owners want more goodies and expect much more. Reduced weight can lead to less strength, you can't have it both ways! One good thing about Hymers, is the showers are pretty waterproof!
My thoughts about UK vans, is that they do seem to have caught up with quality, but a same the water tanks are external!


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks chaps.

Im only fact finding at the moment Kev and wont be buying until I get rid of Hank first so I will no doubt be motorhomeless for a while. I suspect the whole process will take months. Im not rushing into it. Every time we go down this route we end up sticking with the old van but that cannot go on forever. Yes I can drive over 3500kg.

Graham, Ill take a look at the e795. Your profiles says your Autotrail is a Comanche. Do they do a rear lounge model? As said the Apache at the show was a 4250kg model with apparently 800kg of payload according to the dealer which I would have hoped offered good free payload on the rear axle but Phil earlier on reckoned his Dakota on the same chassis was quite limited on the back so I guess I need to find someone who has done the maths and put a rack and scooter on. The water tanks on ours are all forward which much make a big difference.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

barryd said:


> Thanks chaps.
> 
> Im only fact finding at the moment Kev and wont be buying until I get rid of Hank first so I will no doubt be motorhomeless for a while. I suspect the whole process will take months. Im not rushing into it. Every time we go down this route we end up sticking with the old van but that cannot go on forever. Yes I can drive over 3500kg.
> 
> Graham, Ill take a look at the e795. Your profiles says your Autotrail is a Comanche. Do they do a rear lounge model? As said the Apache at the show was a 4250kg model with apparently 800kg of payload according to the dealer which I would have hoped offered good free payload on the rear axle but Phil earlier on reckoned his Dakota on the same chassis was quite limited on the back so I guess I need to find someone who has done the maths and put a rack and scooter on. The water tanks on ours are all forward which much make a big difference.


As I say, the e795 was a great MH bt you may be stymied by the payload. From memory under 500kg

The Comanche is a rear fixed aisle bed but I reckon there must be some variants in the Autotrail range that do what you want. Our payload is pushing a tonne from memory :smile2:

Graham :smile2:


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## philoaks (Sep 2, 2008)

barryd said:


> Thanks chaps.
> 
> Im only fact finding at the moment Kev and wont be buying until I get rid of Hank first so I will no doubt be motorhomeless for a while. I suspect the whole process will take months. Im not rushing into it. Every time we go down this route we end up sticking with the old van but that cannot go on forever. Yes I can drive over 3500kg.
> 
> Graham, Ill take a look at the e795. Your profiles says your Autotrail is a Comanche. Do they do a rear lounge model? As said the Apache at the show was a 4250kg model with apparently 800kg of payload according to the dealer which I would have hoped offered good free payload on the rear axle but Phil earlier on reckoned his Dakota on the same chassis was quite limited on the back so I guess I need to find someone who has done the maths and put a rack and scooter on. The water tanks on ours are all forward which much make a big difference.


Barry,

I know it's not the layout you are looking for but just to clarify the figures for our Dakota. The available payload based on the manufacturers figures was 780KG but the useable figures are as below.

We loaded the van with clothes and food for a 2 week holiday in the UK, so lots of warm jumpers and waterproofs! The fuel tank was full, both the gas bottles were full (1 x11kg and 1 x 7kg). The waste tank was empty and the water tank was full. We have a full width tow bar fitted and we had our tandem loaded on the rear bike rack.

Front Axle - Permitted weight 2100kgs - Actual weight 1620kgs
Rear Axle - Permitted weight 2400kgs - Actual weight 2460kgs 
Overall - Permitted weight 4250kgs - Actual weight 4100kgs

As you can see, the back axle was 60kgs over the permitted so I drained the fresh tank to 25% full. This would have reduced the weight by 100kgs so would have taken the back axle well within limits.

On the face of its the 780kg payload should have been plenty but the overhang and the water tank positioning clearly make the payload difficult to maximise.

I found an article on another forum about upgrading a similar model to 4500kg overall and (more importantly) being able to increase the rear axle to 2900kgs. * Upgrading Autotrail Savannah*

Phil

P.S. Interestingly, the year after our van was made, Autotrail started fitting 2 drain taps to the fresh water tank. One to drain it completely and the other to drain it to a "travelling" weight so they clearly became aware of the issue.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Don't forget Barry that my Comanche is a TAG axle too...

Some TAGs are available within your budget perhaps, so may be an answer to overhang/payload issues?

It drives/corners so well too: like driving on rails compared to the Bess plus 27.2 mpg on a 2,500 mile over The Alps last summer and down to the Italian Lakes :smile2:

Graham :smile2:


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## deefordog (Dec 31, 2013)

Rear lounge version of the Autotrail tag was/is the Arapaho IIRC, Swift's is the 649 and Bessacarr (when they made them) was the E799.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks very much everyone. The logical place for a water tank with an end lounge van, mid bathroom and front kitchen would surely be forward would it not? Bonkers putting it at the back. When I looked at the Baileys their leisure battery was right at the back as far as it would go and I would need two! You have to wonder why.

The Autotrail Apache I looked at had nothing under the two front dinette seats. Our kontiki has the hot water under one and the cold tank under the other. Why put them outside at all and why at the back?

I thought of another approach which would be to ask on the forums who has scooters and racks within legal limits where you did the sums and on which vans. I might also email Armitage Trailers who may have some history of what they have installed and on what.


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## PeteFarnell (Nov 20, 2013)

barryd said:


> The Autotrail Apache I looked at had nothing under the two front dinette seats. Our kontiki has the hot water under one and the cold tank under the other. Why put them outside at all and why at the back?


Our apache has the fresh water tank just behind the axle, not right at the back. I'd say about 25% of it was over the axle. Why they put it there is anybodies guess though. 
I'm planning to fit some frost protection wiring round the tank and the feed pipe for next winter. The mains powered stuff is way cheaper than the low voltage tankblanket option and we don't anticipate wilding in sub zero temps, we'll use sites with hookups in harsh weather.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

PeteFarnell said:


> Our apache has the fresh water tank just behind the axle, not right at the back. I'd say about 25% of it was over the axle. Why they put it there is anybodies guess though.
> I'm planning to fit some frost protection wiring round the tank and the feed pipe for next winter. The mains powered stuff is way cheaper than the low voltage tankblanket option and we don't anticipate wilding in sub zero temps, we'll use sites with hookups in harsh weather.


Thanks again. We have wilded down to -17c before but I agree, better to be on hookup. Having said that presumably you can still get the tanks frozen up on hookup. I remember being on a CL with hookup and an autotrail behind us woke up to frozen tanks.

Its not a deal breaker to be honest as there must be ways around it.


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## Gretchibald (Jul 22, 2011)

Can't help with the choice of van but a friend of mine keeps his water tank from freezing by dropping in a little heater from a tropical fish tank. Good tip I thought. PS He drives a Swift Bolero tag axle.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Tag axle Bolero, not seen one of them, sounds good.

cabby


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Its funny. Ive been googling around and I keep finding my own threads over the past five years asking the same questions. 

Ive been having a look around. As for the Tags. The 649 Kontiki looks and sounds superb but they are a lot of money and not many available. The Auto Trail Arapaho also looks good and there are a few up for sale online http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...+arapaho.TRS0&_nkw=autotrail+arapaho&_sacat=0

There is a big difference in cost between the new and old shaped vans though and only a couple of years between them in some cases.

What is really really frustrating though is I cannot find the payload for the old shaped one. Its 4500KG max compared to the new one which is 5000kg with over 1000kg payload. I think the rear axle weights on the new ones are 1500kg each but information about the older shaped ones is just not available. I would guess as well that the calculations for the rack will involve a measurement from the middle of the two axles to the end of the van which is a long way but I could be wrong. It could be I may still not have enough with a tag.


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## philoaks (Sep 2, 2008)

barryd said:


> What is really really frustrating though is I cannot find the payload for the old shaped one. Its 4500KG max compared to the new one which is 5000kg with over 1000kg payload. I think the rear axle weights on the new ones are 1500kg each but information about the older shaped ones is just not available. I would guess as well that the calculations for the rack will involve a measurement from the middle of the two axles to the end of the van which is a long way but I could be wrong. It could be I may still not have enough with a tag.


I found this brochure for the Autotrail 2005 range Barry. Weights and specs on page 34.

*Brochure*


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## deefordog (Dec 31, 2013)

Watling Street Towbars have this http://www.watling-towbars.co.uk/motorhome_axle_loads.html

There used to be a calculation whereby you entered your own figures and got an immediate result - will have a look around 2mrw.

Sort of what I was after http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/30435-safe-loading-and-payloads


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## Gretchibald (Jul 22, 2011)

cabby said:


> Tag axle Bolero, not seen one of them, sounds good.
> 
> cabby


Sorry, you were right, they used to have a Bolero , the tag axle is a KonTiki. I'm guessing they have plenty of payload also as they travel everywhere with 3 full grown Rottweilers in the back and tow either a Smart car or a big Quad on a trailer.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

philoaks said:


> I found this brochure for the Autotrail 2005 range Barry. Weights and specs on page 34.
> 
> *Brochure*


Thanks. I did find that but I didnt scroll down far enough to the last bit, just looked at the specs above which just showed the axle weights but not the unladen wieght, max weight and payload.

Interesting but not as good as I expected for the Arapaho.

Look at these figures










Now compare them to the Apache and Cheyenne.

Apache










Cheyenne










The Arapaho is only 760kg payload

The Dakota mentioned earlier is 540 or 580kg

The Apache 700 which I was interested in at the show is 670KG which is not miles behind the tag but thats on a 3850kg chassis. The bloke I was talking to from Tyne Valley motorhomes reckoned it was 800kg and it was on a 4250KG chassis so something doesnt add up. If its the same van but plated as 4250KG should it not be 1070KG?

Interestingly some of the Cheyenne models are up to 860kg payload but dont have the right layout.

None the wiser really.

Thanks Deerfordog, I know about the calculators its the actual van specs I am after.


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## philoaks (Sep 2, 2008)

It's an absolute minefield isn't it. 

Our 2013 Dakota is now based on a 4250kg where as back in 2005 it was 3850kg. I guess it's a case of trying to narrow down you choice as best you can but don't commit anything until it's been on a weighbridge!!


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

philoaks said:


> It's an absolute minefield isn't it.
> 
> Our 2013 Dakota is now based on a 4250kg where as back in 2005 it was 3850kg. I guess it's a case of trying to narrow down you choice as best you can but don't commit anything until it's been on a weighbridge!!


It is. I am reminding myself once again why I have stuck with the same van so long.

747 on another forum has just suggested that all tags could be 5000kg MAM so maybe the Arapaho could be replated to 5000kg I dunno.

Or maybe the 4250kg Apache will have more payload than the brochure says. Dunno that either.

Short of finding someone who has actually done the sums and put the bike on and weighed it all you can do is actually get hold of one and weigh it.

I want to get a shortlist first though but would definitely insist on weighing any potential purchase.


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

barryd said:


> Thanks again everyone and cheers Pete for that detailed info.
> 
> Yes Paul I think i have given up on a Bailey. They do have one that fits the bill but there has been an awful lot of problems ive seen on the forums plus it wont fit on the drive.  Not a problem if we move to France or go full timing but who knows what will happen.
> 
> ...


Thing is if you plan on keeping it a fair while its a good motorhome,and would be the layout you prefer,I love my Kontiki 669:grin2:


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Did you dismiss the Hymer then Barry?
> 
> We're looking too, Autotrail are at the top of the list, will consider Hymens and Laikas, Swift if that's all we can afford.
> 
> ...


You have got to go for the bike Kev,you know you wanna!>


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Did you dismiss the Hymer then Barry?
> 
> We're looking too, Autotrail are at the top of the list, will consider Hymens and Laikas, Swift if that's all we can afford.
> 
> ...


I dont know whether you think Barry past his test after 1997,or hes over 70!>


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

jo662 said:


> Thing is if you plan on keeping it a fair while its a good motorhome,and would be the layout you prefer,I love my Kontiki 669:grin2:


Actually I showed Mrs D a 649 on Autotrader and she didnt like the mid ships kitchen opposite the bathroom. The front lounge seat is where it should be opposite the dinette. There is no way I would get her to commit to spending nearly £50k on a 5 year old van though which is about what they are.

I think the layout of the Arapaho is better.

Im wondering though if I can get a 7.5 metre van and just plate it up to 4250 or 4500kg possibly. I think it would need the 2400kg rear axle. The tags are just a tad longer than I wanted really but whatever it takes.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

barryd said:


> Its funny. Ive been googling around and I keep finding my own threads over the past five years asking the same questions.
> 
> Ive been having a look around. As for the Tags. The 649 Kontiki looks and sounds superb but they are a lot of money and not many available. The Auto Trail Arapaho also looks good and there are a few up for sale online http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...+arapaho.TRS0&_nkw=autotrail+arapaho&_sacat=0
> 
> ...


Baldwins, had an arapaho on their pitch on Sunday Bazz

http://rbm.co.uk/all-used-motorhomes it's not on the site though, they're bit slack that way.


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## MyGalSal (Dec 8, 2008)

barryd said:


> Thanks. I did find that but I didnt scroll down far enough to the last bit, just looked at the specs above which just showed the axle weights but not the unladen wieght, max weight and payload.
> 
> Interesting but not as good as I expected for the Arapaho.
> 
> ...


Hi Barry
Interesting thread. Payload is one of my obsessions. I don't know anything about the vans you mention but I do know about Hymers. It has been our experience that whatever payload they state in the spec is total garbage. It is always significantly less. Eg our current van states 1440kg payload and the actual is 850kgs. Also the design of it means the rear axle is almost 2400kgs before we load anything in. Well thats a slight exaggeration but a couple of bikes, tables and chairs, bits and bobs and that's it and we are 100kgs over. 
It is a 4250kg van but we had it replated to 4500. The good old 'paper exercise'. Our previous van was a 3500 replated to 3850 so although we replate them chassis and tyres are still the same so the way I see it it just means we are stretching its capabilities. On ours, and I assume it must be same for the British vans in question, the difference between a 3850 and 4250 is the chassis. The 4250 is on a maxi chassis which, of course, is heavier therefore the payload is not a straight 400+. That might answer your question.

Good luck with your search for new van. A minefield indeed.

Meantime, an aside - we stuck it out in Scotland for three solid months of rain waiting for my surgery - and we are still waiting - until at the end of Feb we couldn't take it any longer and pegged it down to Spain. Sitting now in the sunshine at Bonterra Park. Absolute bliss. However, must leave on Sunday. I finally have a pre-op apt on 12 April. However, consultant's sec warned me that does not mean surgery is imminent because pre-ops are valid for three months. So we wait, and wait....

We have had enough. We intend to move to Spain. My son has sent me all necessary info. So next trip to Barcelona - post op obviously - we are going to go for it. Would have done it this visit but my hip is deteriorating rapidly and I am just not mobile enough to get into town and do the biz so it will have to wait. And the point of that info for you is, if you are contemplating possibility of move to France, get a LHD van. We have a RHD and that going to pose a problem. Haven't worked out yet what we will do about it. Obviously France and Spain may have different rules but I imagine basics will be the same.

Sal


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Hi Sal

Thanks for this very useful input and explanation of the chassis. That all makes sense now. I wonder how the dealer arrived at the figure of 800kg for the Autotrail Apache we looked on the 4250kg chassis at the show. 

Sorry to hear your still suffering but I hope there is light at the end of the tunnel and at least your in warmer climes for now at least! Good luck with the op (Should it go ahead).

I have a feeling that the max any rear single motorhome axle can to is 2400kg (could be wrong of course). I am now starting to wonder if a lower weight van may be better with the possibility of an upgrade to the highest possible weight on the rear axle. What I am getting at is that if there is an existing model where the rear axle is say 2000KG max but can be upgraded to 2400KG without fitting anything that would be better than getting something thats already 2400kg but struggling and would provide ample payload.

I am also thinking that the only true way to ever know is to actually get all the different contenders weighed. Something I suspect dealers and sellers will not be keen to do.

I have posted a separate thread about who has what vans with scooters on and what were / are your payloads on 3 forums and the silence is deafening. I wonder how many just wing it.

I just looked at the Bessacarr E495 and it has a generous payload of 650kg on a 4005kg chassis compared to the E795 at 525kg and on the face of it looks the same layout but the 495 is on the standard chassis not Alko. Cant see what the difference is otherwise.

I Saw your thread about the woes of importing the van to Spain. Yes LHD would be better in case we do move to France but I cant find the right layout!!! Grrrr.  I think Penquin in France has a Kontiki though. 

I think Ill give up and just keep Hank.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

You didn't reveal your licence type Barry.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> You didn't reveal your licence type Barry.


I thought I did. I can drive anything. Passed test two weeks after my 17th birthday in 1983!  I could drive a combine harvester by the time I was 15. Just saying.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

barryd said:


> I thought I did. I can drive anything. Passed test two weeks after my 17th birthday in 1983!  I could drive a combine harvester by the time I was 15. Just saying.


Ah I see, it's those boyish good looks which made me think you were much younger than that, mind you Tuggs did say summat about you being an old tart, and past it last night when we spoke > >


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

barryd said:


> Hi Sal
> 
> I Saw your thread about the woes of importing the van to Spain. Yes LHD would be better in case we do move to France but I cant find the right layout!!! Grrrr.  I think Penquin in France has a Kontiki though.


Barry

Another point about importing RHD would be to check about insurance - it is almost impossible to get it for RHD here in Poland, but France may be easier, but at what price?

I wonder whether some of the apparent discrepancies on axle weights are down to what wheels and tyre loadings are fitted. I seem to have read that some chassis and body combinations only allow a certain size of wheel/tyre and that can restrict what tyre loadings are available. I am no expert so sorry if I am inserting a red herring into the equation. Jean-Luc may be a source to check whether I am right, although he has only been on rarely recently, so maybe does not even get notification of PMs.

Geoff


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## chilly (Apr 20, 2007)

barryd said:


> The Apache 700 which I was interested in at the show is 670KG which is not miles behind the tag but thats on a 3850kg chassis. The bloke I was talking to from Tyne Valley motorhomes reckoned it was 800kg and it was on a 4250KG chassis so something doesnt add up. If its the same van but plated as 4250KG should it not be 1070KG?





barryd said:


> I wonder how the dealer arrived at the figure of 800kg for the Autotrail Apache we looked on the 4250kg chassis at the show.


Because a lot talk B*ll*x and make stuff up!


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## randonneur (Jan 25, 2007)

nicholsong said:


> Barry
> 
> Another point about importing RHD would be to check about insurance - it is almost impossible to get it for RHD here in Poland, but France may be easier, but at what price?
> 
> Geoff


No problem re-registering a RHD in France as long a you can get a Certificate of Conformite from the Base vehicle manufacturer and the converter. Unless it is a very, very old van then it is ok.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

randonneur said:


> No problem re-registering a RHD in France as long a you can get a Certificate of Conformite from the Base vehicle manufacturer and the converter. Unless it is a very, very old van then it is ok.


Thanks for clearing that up. Good to know.

I think I might talk to svtech about these models and see what they say. If I can buy the model I want and it can be upgraded if need be then that's fine. I quite fancy the Kontiki 645 to be honest. I'm out at the gym at the moment but will post some photos later. They just look right with a low chassis and short overhang. The physics of putting a bike on the back of an Apache with a higher chassis and long overhang just looks wrong to me.

The payload on the kontiki 645 is just 525kg though but unlike the payload on my old kontiki which is 680kg I think on the newer vans they started Inculding stuff like water and fuel so they may be comparable.

If the 645 4005kg chassis can be up plated then that could be the way forward. Anyone got a 645?


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## chilly (Apr 20, 2007)

Here's one but someone's scribbled on it!


(I do wonder why they did that)


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## GMLS (Dec 2, 2010)

Hi. We have an AT Scout which is basically the same layout as the Apache with a larger payload (plus importantly for us a full height fridge freezer)

It has loads of payload and we've never come close to filling up all the internal storage. It does have a long overhang though but never had an issue with 3 MTB's on the back.

No experience of the Alde heating but found the blown heating to be excellent and very responsive. Build quality (2012) generally very good and we have external tanks but with heaters and never had an issue down to minus 10

Good luck!


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

randonneur said:


> No problem re-registering a RHD in France as long a you can get a Certificate of Conformite from the Base vehicle manufacturer and the converter. Unless it is a very, very old van then it is ok.


I wrote about insurance not re-registration - wake up at the back.:wink2:


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

chilly said:


> Here's one but someone's scribbled on it!
> 
> (I do wonder why they did that)


Bloody vandals...

I wouldn't buy that one!

Kids these days eh?:wink2:

Graham :grin2:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

:surprise::surprise::surprise:He said out at the "GYM" and no one said anything.>>>


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks folks. I spoke (well email) at length with Armitage Trailers this morning who fit the racks as to what vans they had worked on and listed my contenders. They were definitely saying the Alko Chassis was the best to go for but also said the Bessacarrs and Swifts would take more weight than the Autotrails. Im not so sure about this but the Alko chassis with short overhang I think is going to make a difference. I have emailed SVtech this afternoon to get their take on things. What I am hoping is that Kontiki 645 can be upgraded from 4005kg to say 4250kg with an extra 100kg or so put on the rear axle taking it from 2300 to 2400kg or more if possible. I think the front is 1850kg. The Bessacarr E795 is already at 4250kg but the payload is the same as the Kontiki, around 525kg so is there room for improvement on the 645?

Look at the following photos below and the length of the overhangs. The standard chassis on the Apache and Bessacarr E495 is a lot longer than the shorter ones on the Bessacarr E795 and Kontiki 645. This has to make a load of difference in handling and load.

Kontiki 645








Apache 700









Bessacarr E495









Bessacarr E795


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

The problem all the time is the back axle rating, which comes from the base vehicle - white van industry.

When we were looking at buying a van to convert, none of the smaller vans would meet our needs for towing capacity, which is why we bought the Mercedes Vario.

The downside is that it is a bit of a truck, in fact it is ALL truck with a van body plonked on, but it does have those very nice axles at 2.3 tonnes front and 4.3 tonnes rear, so you really have to go some to overload it. Buy the 814 instead of our 614 and you are up to 2.9 tonnes and 5.6 tonnes respectively

Mercedes did sell the Vario chassis-cab to motorhome builders, but the price meant that only the top-end builders used it. 

I don't think that the big Iveco's get used much, but they are out there.

Peter


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Are you okay for width Barry, I know you're a parking garu, but your spot is mega tight.


Just to be clear I was meaning the van, thought I'd better make sure after my GYM comment before, how you doing smokin n dietin anyhoo?


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## deefordog (Dec 31, 2013)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> :surprise::surprise::surprise:He said out at the "GYM" and no one said anything.>>>


I thought he meant he was going to see a mate called Jim lol?


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Width is an issue if we stay here. Thats another reason I ruled out the Baileys as they are too wide to fit on the drive.

I just did some more research and I think my stats are wrong when I posted the photos. Looks like the payload figures for the 2003 to 2006 Kontiki were just 425kg and the 525kg was on the later models which are already 4250kg so presumably no further upgrades are available.

GMLS you mention your Scout as having loads of payload. I am struggling with the later information for Autotrail. Do you have any more details. The Autotrail brochures that I posted bits of earlier are quite clear and show them but the later models do not. Ive been through their later model brochures and cannot find the specific payloads anywhere.

I am starting to flag now. Finding more and more of my old posts including this one on the Swift forum from four years ago!! The last bit is where I figured out the differential in the Kontikis from 2003 to 2006 and 2006 onwards. http://www.swift-talk.co.uk/swift/forum/motorhome-technical/62694/swift-payloads-for-scooter-rack

Maybe a tag is the only way forward. Either that or just keep our 20 year old van forever and just put aside £30k to keep it running until I croke.


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## chilly (Apr 20, 2007)

barryd said:


> Thanks folks. I spoke (well email) at length with Armitage Trailers this morning who fit the racks as to what vans they had worked on and listed my contenders. They were definitely saying the Alko Chassis was the best to go for but also said the Bessacarrs and Swifts would take more weight than the Autotrails. Im not so sure about this but the Alko chassis with short overhang I think is going to make a difference. I have emailed SVtech this afternoon to get their take on things. What I am hoping is that Kontiki 645 can be upgraded from 4005kg to say 4250kg with an extra 100kg or so put on the rear axle taking it from 2300 to 2400kg or more if possible. I think the front is 1850kg. The Bessacarr E795 is already at 4250kg but the payload is the same as the Kontiki, around 525kg so is there room for improvement on the 645?
> 
> Look at the following photos below and the length of the overhangs. The standard chassis on the Apache and Bessacarr E495 is a lot longer than the shorter ones on the Bessacarr E795 and Kontiki 645. This has to make a load of difference in handling and load.


I agree Barry, the overhangs on the Kontiki 645 and the Bessi E795 look much more ready to accept a bit of weight on the rear axle. You'll just have to spend a bit on air assist (and maybe bigger back tyres) to get the desired back end payload. Go for it!


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## Kirbz73 (Nov 22, 2015)

Shame you can't stretch the budget, there's a bessacarr 799 just gone up for sale near me that's nice, 2013 model for £45k half temped myself at the price and sell my kontiki but I'm not a fan of the end lounge


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## chilly (Apr 20, 2007)

barryd said:


> Width is an issue if we stay here. Thats another reason I ruled out the Baileys as they are too wide to fit on the drive.
> 
> I just did some more research and I think my stats are wrong when I posted the photos. Looks like the payload figures for the 2003 to 2006 Kontiki were just 425kg and the 525kg was on the later models which are already 4250kg so presumably no further upgrades are available.
> 
> ...


Talk to SV Tech about air assistance etc. I'm sure you'll be able to up plate to what you need.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks again but do you think a van that is already at 4000kg or 4250kg can be upgraded any further? I dont care how much it costs (Well I do) but if I have to spend £500-1000 or whatever to get the van I want to be beefy enough to take a bike then so be it. Ill be keeping it for the foreseable future.

There is logic in stretching the budget to a newer tag Kirbz but I will never get Mrs D to agree to that kind of money. Its doing my head in now. I dunno how they all got so heavy though, have they started putting bricks in them or something? 

I found a Hymer Classic C644 on Autotrader with rear lounge and luton. Can I find the wieghts and payload figures for it anywhere on the internet. Nope! Mrs D would kick it into touch though anyway as it doesnt have an oven.


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## chilly (Apr 20, 2007)

I don't know if I'm teaching grandma to suck eggs here Barry. ...But surely, all you need is do is to throw a bit of dosh at air assisted suspension and SV Tech.
it's also a lot cheaper on the older AlKo chassis with leaf springs than mine with torsion bars.


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## deefordog (Dec 31, 2013)

Barry - just to throw some other figures in the mix. Best way to explain this post is to cut and paste what came from Swift Talk, albeit our 2008 Kontiki 669.
My question:
Having been on a weighbridge last week, it may be time to lose some weight.
Overall of weight of 4880kg but with wife & I plus dog and full fuel & water - this is the most we'll ever be but still some payload left for more booze lol. But.....
Front axle came in at 2020kg (lots of stuff in luton), middle axle at 1680kg (blimey) and the rear at 1180kg. Given that we carry a fair amount in the small garage and under the rear bed well behind the third axle, this came as a bit of a surprise. Time to shed some weight in some areas, maybe dump the water tank but there's not much else which would cause the middle axle to be overweight.
Have just found the Certificate of Conformity as issued by Swift at the factory and the axle weights make for interesting reading:
Technically permissible max on each axle - 1) 2100kg, 2) 1500kg, 3) 1500kg.
Distribution of this mass on each axle - 1) 1934kg, 2) 1337kg, 3) 978kg.
So to Swift (or anyone that may have an answer), what was included in the MH when the certificate of conformity was completedto arrive at these factory weights? It seems to me that there was never much room for manoeuvre apart from the rearmost axle loading. By the time we're loaded up, it's no surprise that we're overweight given thelack of spare capacityafter it left the factory. If we were to carry additional passengers, even in its factory state, we could still be overloaded with nothing else on board.


Swift's reply:
Hi Paul,
let me assure you that the payload is 835kg as shown in the technical data.
The MRO axle masses shown on the Certificate of Conformity are the maximum in a range of values submitted to the approval authority when type approving the vehicle. These masses are determined in conjunction with the approval authority when assessing the prototype vehicle. The higher figure is to allow for build tolerances and additional or changes to the habitational specification without having to update the approvals.
The specification was not changed and therefore the payload for a 2008 Kon-Tiki 669 is the difference between the MTPLM and the MRO as declared in the technical data. i.e.
MTPLM 5000kg
MRO 4165kg
Payload 835kg


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Is this anything close to what you are looking for, it is at Webbs, they are helpful and will tell you weights etc.

cabby

eBay item number:201547382999
Bay item number:152023274297


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## deefordog (Dec 31, 2013)

Barry - so basically, you're looking for a newer MH that has the same layout and payload as your existing Kontiki?

We might be just going through the same thought process - our current 2008 669 offers everything we need but not necessarily want. Would like e newer MH (another 669), maybe new that has all the bells and whistles that ours doesn't. Looked at a new 669 last week, £77k OTR, so say £82k by the time we've added a few extras like sat, tow bar, a/c etc.. Price to change would be c.£45k and for that amount of cash we could do an awful lot to ours - new upholstery, vinyl wrap the cab and sides to look like a later model (yes, I've looked into this lol). I could even get Alde installed and still have some change. But.......

When the time does come to change the MH for whatever reason, we're not going to recoup the upgrade/s outlay. Bit like doing up a house and not getting any extra when you do eventually sell it.

So what will a newer MH offer that your current one doesn't? I think we've been here before in the Bailey thread lol. Will you get any more enjoyment and if so, at what cost?

JMO :wink2:


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## deefordog (Dec 31, 2013)

cabby said:


> Is this anything close to what you are looking for, it is at Webbs, they are helpful and will tell you weights etc.
> 
> cabby
> 
> eBay item number:201547382999


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201547382...l?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=201547382999&_rdc=1

Now that could fit the bill when to comes to layout and payload http://assets.swiftgroup.co.uk/swif.../Swift Motorhome Rio and Esprit Sept 2014.pdf


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## MyGalSal (Dec 8, 2008)

barryd said:


> Thanks again but do you think a van that is already at 4000kg or 4250kg can be upgraded any further? I dont care how much it costs (Well I do) but if I have to spend £500-1000 or whatever to get the van I want to be beefy enough to take a bike then so be it. Ill be keeping it for the foreseable future.
> 
> There is logic in stretching the budget to a newer tag Kirbz but I will never get Mrs D to agree to that kind of money. Its doing my head in now. I dunno how they all got so heavy though, have they started putting bricks in them or something?
> 
> I found a Hymer Classic C644 on Autotrader with rear lounge and luton. Can I find the wieghts and payload figures for it anywhere on the internet. Nope! Mrs D would kick it into touch though anyway as it doesnt have an oven.


Buy her a Remoska! only 400watts. A small inverter could take care of that when you are wilding. The Hymer 644 would be a great van. No worries about water tanks and winterising. No idea re payload though. What year is it?

Sal


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## Kirbz73 (Nov 22, 2015)

deefordog said:


> Barry - so basically, you're looking for a newer MH that has the same layout and payload as your existing Kontiki?
> 
> We might be just going through the same thought process - our current 2008 669 offers everything we need but not necessarily want. Would like e newer MH (another 669), maybe new that has all the bells and whistles that ours doesn't. Looked at a new 669 last week, £77k OTR, so say £82k by the time we've added a few extras like sat, tow bar, a/c etc.. Price to change would be c.£45k and for that amount of cash we could do an awful lot to ours - new upholstery, vinyl wrap the cab and sides to look like a later model (yes, I've looked into this lol). I could even get Alde installed and still have some change. But.......
> 
> ...


Funny enough we looked at a new one last week and didn't like it, felt too dark and clinical. We actually preferred the bolero model. "If" this year goes well I would like to upgrade ours to an a class, possible a burstner 810 or similar as I want the build quality and like the layout


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

deefordog said:


> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201547382...l?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=201547382999&_rdc=1
> 
> Now that could fit the bill when to comes to layout and payload http://assets.swiftgroup.co.uk/swif.../Swift Motorhome Rio and Esprit Sept 2014.pdf


Hmm. Look at the payload.










Never heard of it. Its a bit drab looking inside and it doesnt look like its on an Alko chassis but the payload is huge. Ill do a bit more research and report back. Bit pricey but its 2014 model.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

MyGalSal said:


> Buy her a Remoska! only 400watts. A small inverter could take care of that when you are wilding. The Hymer 644 would be a great van. No worries about water tanks and winterising. No idea re payload though. What year is it?
> 
> Sal


I think it was a 2006 Sal. http://motorhomes.autotrader.co.uk/...e5736f0ed7/makemodel/make/hymer/model/classic

I think they were only made that year but I could be wrong. Cant find any figures for it at all.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

deefordog said:


> Barry - so basically, you're looking for a newer MH that has the same layout and payload as your existing Kontiki?
> 
> We might be just going through the same thought process - our current 2008 669 offers everything we need but not necessarily want. Would like e newer MH (another 669), maybe new that has all the bells and whistles that ours doesn't. Looked at a new 669 last week, £77k OTR, so say £82k by the time we've added a few extras like sat, tow bar, a/c etc.. Price to change would be c.£45k and for that amount of cash we could do an awful lot to ours - new upholstery, vinyl wrap the cab and sides to look like a later model (yes, I've looked into this lol). I could even get Alde installed and still have some change. But.......
> 
> ...


I would love to keep our van (yeah we have been here before  ) but its 20 years old this year. Parts are getting hard to find and how long will it last given the amount of use it gets?

Also looking on ebay and autotrader, the "asking" prices are not a mile behind what we paid for it 8 years ago which was £16250. My guess was between £13-£15K going on whats been asked online but I think once motorhomes get over 20 years old they drop into the bargain basement price range so another year or two and will that value half? I dunno. Not a big issue really, just feels like right now its saleable at a decent price.

On the other hand, if the Swift Esprit 496 is a contender but its new and pricey then I could keep ours a few years longer and wait for prices to drop.

Arggh! Here we are again!


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Look what you get for £15k one Ebay right now Barry, not much really if you're particular like wot you is.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Look what you get for £15k one Ebay right now Barry, not much really if you're particular like wot you is.


Eh? 13-15k is what I hoped to get for my van Kev. Maybe.

That image I posted above about the 496 is for the lowline model. I cannot find any info whatsoever anywhere about the Luton model. I dont think its real.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

barryd said:


> Eh? 13-15k is what I hoped to get for my van Kev. Maybe.
> 
> That image I posted above about the 496 is for the lowline model. I cannot find any info whatsoever anywhere about the Luton model. I dont think its real.


Ah, but yours will be £20k plus due to it being a totally rebuilt, cos you broke damn near everything.

On the plus side I think we may have found one for us too, keeping schtumness for now as no deal has been struck, waiting for the cash for ours, but it's a cracking van, full monty on the toys too.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

If I was you Barry I would at least give Webbs a phone call and ask about that van. I could not remember what price range you were working on sorry.

cabby


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## deefordog (Dec 31, 2013)

Esprit 496 - ALKO chassis? http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjDs4zss9nLAhUEaxQKHbqIC64QFgghMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fassets.swiftgroup.co.uk%2Fswift-group%2Fhandbooks%2F2014%2520Technical%2520Handbooks%2F2014%2520Esprit%2520-%2520400%2520Series%2520tech%2520book.pdf&usg=AFQjCNF3RKxCdtWbxdauPr02mwkS7BAcbw&sig2=FmbuRp20FGjU1AUb_yYXhw

Or maybe the Bessacarr 496? Didn't Lowdhams, Brownhills and other dealers re-badge the 496 as dealer specials?


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Ah, but yours will be £20k plus due to it being a totally rebuilt, cos you broke damn near everything.
> 
> On the plus side I think we may have found one for us too, keeping schtumness for now as no deal has been struck, waiting for the cash for ours, but it's a cracking van, full monty on the toys too.


I hope you have more success with this one than the last one.

How do you find them so quickly? I reckon it will take me years. I started looking in 2011. 

There is actually an element of truth in your first statement. Everything has been fixed. Damp problem a few years ago, entire front end ripped out and fixed and replaced and everything sealed. Hab check done each year.

Rear axle replaced with the newer Alko model.

Upgraded water system to Surflo

The list goes on although there are a few things to do. If I totted up all the bills I could probably have bought a new Kontiki. 

Also, what do you do with the extras like Satellite dome, solar panel, gaslow, scooter rack?

Do you leave them as part of the sale or rip em out?

My feelings were to remove the dome and gaslow and leave the panel. Ill probably leave the scooter rack or offer it with the push bike rack which I took off, I dunno.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

barryd said:


> I hope you have more success with this one than the last one.
> 
> How do you find them so quickly? I reckon it will take me years. I started looking in 2011.
> 
> ...


I removed the refillable and the the 2 x 125ah LBs, left the MPPT controller and 100w panel (couldn't get the bugger off, Stixall 1 me sod all) put it up at £15k, we paid £11.5k put £1500 into it with the above bits, and a new Spinflo triplex cooker, selling at £14,250 = £1.25k profit


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

deefordog said:


> Esprit 496 - ALKO chassis? http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjDs4zss9nLAhUEaxQKHbqIC64QFgghMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fassets.swiftgroup.co.uk%2Fswift-group%2Fhandbooks%2F2014%2520Technical%2520Handbooks%2F2014%2520Esprit%2520-%2520400%2520Series%2520tech%2520book.pdf&usg=AFQjCNF3RKxCdtWbxdauPr02mwkS7BAcbw&sig2=FmbuRp20FGjU1AUb_yYXhw
> 
> Or maybe the Bessacarr 496? Didn't Lowdhams, Brownhills and other dealers re-badge the 496 as dealer specials?


Thanks

Missed your post. It is slightly less payload but still very good. It also does say Alko Hiline chassis. Its 3 or 4 inches wider than our van I think which is going to make it very very tight on the drive.

I have emailed Webbs Cabby. Ive also posted on the Swift forum.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

I would recommend you phoned rather than email, if they do not have the answers to hand they can email you.

cabby


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

That Hymer 644 Classic I mentioned earlier does actually have an oven. Its cheap as well.

Sadly I cannot find any details on the chassis or payload. http://motorhomes.autotrader.co.uk/...e5736f0ed7/makemodel/make/hymer/model/classic

Anyone know?


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## philoaks (Sep 2, 2008)

*This any help* Barry?

Looks like they used the same photo for all the Camp Classic models so I think you can ignore that bit. If the figures are right though it doesn't look hopeful


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

barryd said:


> That Hymer 644 Classic I mentioned earlier does actually have an oven. Its cheap as well.
> 
> Sadly I cannot find any details on the chassis or payload. http://motorhomes.autotrader.co.uk/...e5736f0ed7/makemodel/make/hymer/model/classic
> 
> Anyone know?


Ugh, that fabric is loud enough to keep you awake though mate, not for the seriously imbibed among us, IE you > >


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## Kirbz73 (Nov 22, 2015)

What about this Kevin? It's for sale in Lytham, seems well built if not a little bland but seems a fair price


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## Kirbz73 (Nov 22, 2015)

More


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## Kirbz73 (Nov 22, 2015)

More pics


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

philoaks said:


> *This any help* Barry?
> 
> Looks like they used the same photo for all the Camp Classic models so I think you can ignore that bit. If the figures are right though it doesn't look hopeful


Thanks. No its payload is pitiful and on the standard chassis.










However if it can be uprated to 3850kg then that would give 820kg payload but who knows? I am sure I saw one that was 3850kg somewhere. I seem to remember dismissing that model for that reason though some time ago and the fact that the lounge is very small.


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

barryd said:


> Thanks. No its payload is pitiful and on the standard chassis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats what we found with most German motorhomes when we were researching for our next one!


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Maybe you can update to 4500kg Barryb, as ours Hymer on Alko is just under 3500kg empty with a gross of 4500kg, meaning payload of 1000kg and not on a tag with plenty rear axle payload


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Grath said:


> Maybe you can update to 4500kg Barryb, as ours Hymer on Alko is just under 3500kg empty with a gross of 4500kg, meaning payload of 1000kg and not on a tag with plenty rear axle payload


Maybe Graham but that 644 is on the standard chassis so who knows?

I think the general opinion today when it was discussed was to carry on finding a short list and just keep looking for the right van and in the meantime just keep using ours rather than sell it now. The problem is unless your prepared to do thousands of miles driving around the country they will be few and far between. I could be vanless for years!

There just never seems to be that much for sale up here that suits us. If something perfect comes up ill just buy it and worry about selling ours later. Of course we then have the problem of having two motorhomes and all the issues with insurance etc. Not sure how that would work.

Im not keen to part ex as I think I will do better privately and then do a cash purchase either private or negotiate a discount with a dealer.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

barryd said:


> Maybe Graham but that 644 is on the standard chassis so who knows?
> 
> I think the general opinion today when it was discussed was to carry on finding a short list and just keep looking for the right van and in the meantime just keep using ours rather than sell it now. The problem is unless your prepared to do thousands of miles driving around the country they will be few and far between. I could be vanless for years!
> 
> ...


The 644, is probably on the Fiat Standard Maxi Chassis with 16 inch wheels
Our Tramp was similar and we uprated that to 4100 kg gross, which gave us about 1100 kg payload. The 644 will be heavier.
edit
our Tramp was a 625


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Grath said:


> The 644, is probably on the Fiat Standard Maxi Chassis with 16 inch wheels
> Our Tramp was similar and we uprated that to 4100 kg gross, which gave us about 1100 kg payload. The 644 will be heavier.
> edit
> our Tramp was a 625


Thanks

There is another one with less shocking upholstery here. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2005-Hyme...932007?hash=item35fb647727:g:-vUAAOSwezVWx0Jd

Again, no mention of the weights or payload. I have emailed them asking for specifics but I wont hold my breath.

Its in Southampton as well which is over 300 miles away.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Grath said:


> The 644, is probably on the Fiat Standard Maxi Chassis with 16 inch wheels
> Our Tramp was similar and we uprated that to 4100 kg gross, which gave us about 1100 kg payload. The 644 will be heavier.
> edit
> our Tramp was a 625


Thanks

There is another one with less shocking upholstery here. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2005-Hyme...932007?hash=item35fb647727:g:-vUAAOSwezVWx0Jd

Again, no mention of the weights or payload. I have emailed them asking for specifics but I wont hold my breath.

Its in Southampton as well which is over 300 miles away.

I did find an old ebay advert for one of them that stated it was on 3850KG. If one can be upgraded to 4100kg with a substantial up plate on the rear axle then I would be laughing. IF!

SV Tech might know, I already emailed them about another model but not heard back yet.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

barryd said:


> Thanks
> 
> There is another one with less shocking upholstery here. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2005-Hyme...932007?hash=item35fb647727:g:-vUAAOSwezVWx0Jd
> 
> ...


Our Tramp on a Maxi Chassis would have been uprated to 4000kg, but the Airide gave it another 100 kg to 4100kg. It was done by SV Tech, and I had to send photographs of the tyre specifications. If you find a suitable M/H, I would recommende you talk to SV Tech.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Barry
I know I have gone up weight to a 4500kg, but I am not sure it was the right thing to do, as I seem to have forgotten, and I did know, that more and more Countries are going down the Go Box route.
If I were to change again, it would be for a 3500kg with a box trailer to put the scooter and bits and pieces in.
Give it a little thought!


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Grath said:


> Barry
> I know I have gone up weight to a 4500kg, but I am not sure it was the right thing to do, as I seem to have forgotten, and I did know, that more and more Countries are going down the Go Box route.
> If I were to change again, it would be for a 3500kg with a box trailer to put the scooter and bits and pieces in.
> Give it a little thought!


I would rather pay the tolls / go box than ever use a trailer Graham. No question.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I think Ive been looking at this from the wrong angle. Instead of looking at the heavier motorhomes maybe I should be looking at ones that are lighter but have more scope for up plating. If you can upgrade a 3500kg van to 4100 or more than maybe thats the way forward but a van that is already 4250kg when it comes out of the factory but with a poor payload maybe cant be upgraded.

What do you think?


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

I personally think that the larger/heavier option is better (I would say that, wouldn't I!)

The chassis tends to be better/stronger mechanically, wheels and tyres are not skimpy to get under the 3500kg limit and so on.

Road tax is actually cheaper for PHGV.

BUT: You do tend to get more and more into the 'small truck' chassis on some makes as they don't have a panel van or chassis-cab at the higher weights.

Peter


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Kirbz73 said:


> More pics


Er, ta, but no ta.

Put a deposit on a Bessie today


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Er, ta, but no ta.
> 
> Put a deposit on a Bessie today


Great stuff Kev, any details and pics?

Paul.


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Er, ta, but no ta.
> 
> Put a deposit on a Bessie today


Yes Kev,show us where the moneys going too!:grin2:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I started a new fred in it's honour >


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

listerdiesel said:


> I personally think that the larger/heavier option is better (I would say that, wouldn't I!)
> 
> The chassis tends to be better/stronger mechanically, wheels and tyres are not skimpy to get under the 3500kg limit and so on.
> 
> ...


A truck chassis would solve Barry's weight problem, but he would not get it on his drive and maybe not be ablee to find a rear-lounge.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I think the question that needs answering is can one of the favoured vans on the Alko Chassis like the Kontiki 645 or Bessacarr 795 be up plated from 4005 or 4250kg up to 4500 or even 5000kg and with what modifications. I bet they cant which is why I am now wondering if your better starting with something on 3500 or 3850. SV Tech may have all the answers. They must have a database of what they have done and how. Ill get Easter out of the way and chase up their reply to the email I sent the other day.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

barryd said:


> I think the question that needs answering is can one of the favoured vans on the Alko Chassis like the Kontiki 645 or Bessacarr 795 be up plated from 4005 or 4250kg up to 4500 or even 5000kg and with what modifications. I bet they cant which is why I am now wondering if your better starting with something on 3500 or 3850. SV Tech may have all the answers. They must have a database of what they have done and how. Ill get Easter out of the way and chase up their reply to the email I sent the other day.


That does sound like the best and least frustrating way to go Bazza.

I wonder if they have a list of which vans might be most suitable for your needs too, worth asking.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> That does sound like the best and least frustrating way to go Bazza.
> 
> I wonder if they have a list of which vans might be most suitable for your needs too, worth asking.


Thats kind of what I asked them although I was specific on the models I was interested in. Ill pick it up after Easter and contact them again.

I am sure there must be a solution even if you have to throw a bit of money at it. Maybe I could get a Kontiki and fit it onto a Chieftain Tank chassis.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

barryd said:


> Thats kind of what I asked them although I was specific on the models I was interested in. Ill pick it up after Easter and contact them again.
> 
> I am sure there must be a solution even if you have to throw a bit of money at it. Maybe I could get a Kontiki and fit it onto a Chieftain Tank chassis.


Self build one, > > 7.5t chassis, and put a big caravan on the back, with a tail lift for the bike, sorted matey.


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## MyGalSal (Dec 8, 2008)

Barry, I am rather sorry that we are going to have to wait until after Easter for the next step/thought/consideration/possibility towards your new van. I am really enjoying all the detail and pros and cons etc. It's the way we approach things, and as Don is fond of saying, "i always want to know the far end of a f**t. At the same time I always end up with my head done in so it's great reading all your fact finding but thankful that it's not me having to make some momentous decision. Very serious business this van buying.

Re one of your dilemma's, ie lighter van maybe possible to upgrade, or heavier van possibly already near its max, well we went through this exercise. We had a 3500 which we had upgraded to 3850. After getting stopped and weighed in France, and found to be 200kgs overweight, oo, er, we realised we needed more payload. We investigated with SV Tech who advised that because we had 15" wheels we were at our max, also our back axle's max was 2200 (we were on Fiat Ducato chassis). So basically it was still a 3500 van, stretched to its limit at 3850 and personally, I believe that meant we were always running past the real comfortable limit of the van, although still legal (once we dumped a lot of un-necessary stuff). It handled well, I have to say, and the front end did not feel light. We sold it and went for a 4000/4250 van which the dealer upgraded to 4500 for us. When we loaded it up we found the rear axle was overloaded by 100kgs, and that was just carrying necessary stuff, so not much room for error. We talked to SV Tech again to see if we upgrade our 2400 allowance to 2600. They said we could with air assist and - an upgrade of tyres. We had 225x75x16 load index 116. They said that was inadequate and recommended at least 118 but preferably 121 because even without air assist and even with a full load of just 2400 on the rear the tyres were maxed out. Unfortunately because we have a Alko chassis the air assist costs an arm and a leg £2200 +SV Techs charge for new vin plate + new tyres. We didn't think it worth it just to get an extra 200 on the back and have rejigged our packing strategy. We have however, upgraded our tyres anyway to 121. During my fact finding mission Travelworld said we had to upgrade our WHEELS and not just our tyres. At that point I gave up. We are happy with our overall payload on the 4500, it's just a pity with our overhang etc the rear axle doesn't have more to play with. So at the end of this ramble I would urge you to go for heavier van with maxi chassis. 

I wish you luck and will continue to watch your thread with interest. 

Sal


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

You should be able to rent the van for week then decide, you can't of course, but we can spend an hour or more, just feeling it out, how we'd use, what go where, sort of make it ours for a bit, into every drawer and cupboard etc, being nosey and snooping, preferably left on our own, I also make a video as I'm looking round as it focuses the mind, you miss less too, and you have it to refer to later.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

As I mentioned earlier, it's the rear axle that is going to dictate what you can carry, followed by the front axle and then the tyres and wheels.

We went up fron 215/76R16 to 225/75R16 Load rating 121 on the four rears and 118 Load rating at the front, more to give us a better ride and tyre life as much as anything else, but the wheel size gives us a big range of truck tyres while 15" rims are not quite as well served.

A 3500kg chassis is not going to be uprated that far unless you have a tag axle with decent weights on both rears.

You probably need to go to the higher weight Mercedes Sprinter or Iveco Daily chassis to get a decent payload, as in 700+ kgs.

We'll have 1000+ kgs payload, but Varios are not everone's cup of tea.

Peter


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thank you very much Peter and Sal for those very useful contributions. It is turning out to be an excellent thread and will hopefully prove very useful to others as well as myself in the future. I am starting to think though that people just buy vans if they look nice and payload is an afterthought. 

What is very interesting Sal is you have pointed out that an upgrade on a rear axle above 2400kg is indeed possible. I am awaiting SVTechs response. To be honest as has been said to me off line by another member I would be willing to pay them to help with this research if they can provide the right information. I may point them at this thread as it could possibly generate business for them if others face the same dilemma.

Mind you if adding air assist to the Alko chassis is £2200 thats a chunk of money. I am sure Tugboat said he has an Alko chassis on his Bessacarr and added it himself just recently. I wonder if the standard chassis on say an Autotrail Apache is more easily upgradable but they you have the problem of a longer overhang! Arggh!

To be honest if I had to shell out £3k for tyres and air suspension and whatever was needed if I was say 100-200kg short on payload I would do it.

Ill give SVtech until the middle of the week and if they havent come back Ill give them a nudge.

Thanks once again.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Barry, here is the weight of our B654sl
The Hymer build plate states
Gross 4500kg 
Front axle 2200kg, 
Rear axle 2400kg
When we got it, I put it on a weigh bridge with full fuel, water and 2 cyl gas nearly full
Gross was 3430kg 
Front axle was 1700kg 
Rear axle was 1740kg

This means the payloads are as follow
Gross payload of 1070kg
Front axle payload of 500kg
Rear axle payload of 660kg

Since weighing, I have increased the tyre load ratings

Don't forget this is the SL version which will be heavier due to the higher specification, and it is also fully loaded with goodies, including the pull out scooter rack!

We will be going away soon fully loaded, with everything including Scooter and Geny,(also the Armatage upright and over seat part) therefore, I will be weighing at that stage. I think the rear will be near, due to the fulcrum effect of the scooter.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Self build one, > > 7.5t chassis, and put a big caravan on the back, with a tail lift for the bike, sorted matey.


Looks familiar, picture I took at Nuenen in 2011.

Peter


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

listerdiesel said:


> Looks familiar, picture I took at Nuenen in 2011.
> 
> Peter


Yes, :grin2: I pulled it off Google images, noticed the url though, waited to see if you were paying attention.>>


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Grath said:


> Barry, here is the weight of our B654sl
> The Hymer build plate states
> Gross 4500kg
> Front axle 2200kg,
> ...


Thanks Graham. That payload is ideal. I doubt though that the 644 with the layout we want would be able to be up plated to that spec but it does show whats possible. I Think you said yours was on the Alko Chassis?

I hope SVtech have the answers.


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## tugboat (Sep 14, 2013)

barryd said:


> Thank you very much Peter and Sal for those very useful contributions. It is turning out to be an excellent thread and will hopefully prove very useful to others as well as myself in the future. I am starting to think though that people just buy vans if they look nice and payload is an afterthought.
> 
> What is very interesting Sal is you have pointed out that an upgrade on a rear axle above 2400kg is indeed possible. I am awaiting SVTechs response. To be honest as has been said to me off line by another member I would be willing to pay them to help with this research if they can provide the right information. I may point them at this thread as it could possibly generate business for them if others face the same dilemma.
> 
> ...


I did indeed add air assist to my ALKO chassis a couple of weeks ago. The kit was £1436 from Marcle Leisure, and I fitted it myself. Technically it is easy, but I found it physically demanding 'cos I'm an unfit old f**t! The hardest part was deciding where to fit the pump and control panel and work out how to route the pipes.

Unlike the kits for standard chassis, it does not really allow levelling of the van on site, but has made a huge difference in the way the van handles. No more roly poly, and corners much better. When pumped up it only altered the height of the van by about 1cm (empty van), but I imagine once I get the scoot on the back, some water in the rear tank and all the other stuff (beer) loaded it will lift a bit more.

I discovered the scissors jack that is standard equipment is pretty useless and very hard work, despite lubeing it well. I've now bought a trolley jack from Machine Mart to use in the future.


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## chilly (Apr 20, 2007)

tugboat said:


> I did indeed add air assist to my ALKO chassis a couple of weeks ago. The kit was £1436 from Marcle Leisure, and I fitted it myself. Technically it is easy, but I found it physically demanding 'cos I'm an unfit old f**t! The hardest part was deciding where to fit the pump and control panel and work out how to route the pipes.
> 
> Unlike the kits for standard chassis, it does not really allow levelling of the van on site, but has made a huge difference in the way the van handles. No more roly poly, and corners much better. When pumped up it only altered the height of the van by about 1cm (empty van), but I imagine once I get the scoot on the back, some water in the rear tank and all the other stuff (beer) loaded it will lift a bit more.
> 
> I discovered the scissors jack that is standard equipment is pretty useless and very hard work, despite lubeing it well. I've now bought a trolley jack from Machine Mart to use in the future.


Are you having the van up-plated? If so from what to what? Do you have to fit larger rear tyres as part of the up-plate?
Sorry for the slight Hijack


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Yes, Barry, it is on Alko.
The tyres are 225/75 R16 CP with 118R load rating.
The van was plated with the previous lower spec tyres, which from memory were 116.
I have no intention of uprating, but thought for a few extra quid, a tyre load safety margin would be worth having

edit
Just remembered, a spare is included in the weights in my above post.
It is of course, the lower spec tyre


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

So if I need Air Assist adding I can get it done much cheaper at Tugboat Towers then.  Thats good to know. They serve Gin there as well so I can sit back in a deck chair and watch Tuggers sort the van out while quaffing his free Gin. Its a win win.


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## tugboat (Sep 14, 2013)

chilly said:


> Are you having the van up-plated? If so from what to what? Do you have to fit larger rear tyres as part of the up-plate?
> Sorry for the slight Hijack


Hi, Chilly,

No, van is already plated at 3850, and I have weighed the van fully loaded without any problems. This was done purely to improve the handling, to stop the van rolling so much. Going round endless roundabouts on city ringroads, and twisty B-roads, was unpleasant. I know it's an old(ish) van (2006), but it has only done 30k miles, it suits me very well and I have no urge to change it, having looked at what is on offer these days. I figured it was worth investing in, with the intention of keeping it as long as I'm licensed to drive it.

It's my first van too, so how lucky was I?


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## tugboat (Sep 14, 2013)

barryd said:


> So if I need Air Assist adding I can get it done much cheaper at Tugboat Towers then.  Thats good to know. They serve Gin there as well so I can sit back in a deck chair and watch Tuggers sort the van out while quaffing his free Gin. Its a win win.


After you visited and emptied my booze locker last time :knob:, it has taken me a long time to replenish.

I checked the locker today and I find there are now *5* bottles of gin. I've obviously been far too timpro tempera sober recently. Does the team think *5* bottles is excessive? Should Tuggers go on a mega-toot? A toot-toot, even?

I'm worried Barry might get on the next plane South!:drinking:


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

tugboat said:


> After you visited and emptied my booze locker last time :knob:, it has taken me a long time to replenish.
> 
> I checked the locker today and* I find there are now 5 bottles of gin*. I've obviously been far too timpro tempera sober recently. Does the team think *5* bottles is excessive? Should Tuggers go on a mega-toot? A toot-toot, even?
> 
> I'm worried Barry might get on the next plane South!:drinking:


Ill be at Exeter airport at Tea time. Make sure you wear the chauffeurs cap this time. Ill have Mrs D drive the van down later.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

tugboat said:


> After you visited and emptied my booze locker last time :knob:, it has taken me a long time to replenish.
> 
> I checked the locker today and I find there are now *5* bottles of gin. I've obviously been far too timpro tempera sober recently. Does the team think *5* bottles is excessive? Should Tuggers go on a mega-toot? A toot-toot, even?
> 
> I'm worried Barry might get on the next plane South!:drinking:


I'll refrain from slagging Barry off this time, as you clearly are adverting for mates, and know his weakness, that and his deformed hands, (must be to play like that) he needs to drink to remember.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Have you yet decided on which next van barry, sorry if I am off topic.>>

cabby


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

He's gorn off me now :crying::crying::crying: :knob:


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

cabby said:


> Have you yet decided on which next van barry, sorry if I am off topic.>>
> 
> cabby


Dont be daft Cabby. Ive only been looking since 2011. Been flat out busy today so not even had chance to contact SVtech and no reply from them as yet.

Not in a hurry.


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

barryd said:


> A real motorhome post at last!!
> 
> What I would like to do is compare some Bessacarrs, Swift Kontiki and Autotrail Apache models


Saw this and thought of you! Lol

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/motorhome...90c73e7&pid=100005&rk=5&rkt=6&sd=201551242712


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

jo662 said:


> Saw this and thought of you! Lol
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/motorhome-2013-fiat-ducato-150-multijet-swift-kon-tiki-649-6-berth-tag-axle/291739683454?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140122125356%26meid%3D52decd90ce6548b2b5f03d3c790c73e7%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D201551242712


Looks nice but too expensive and I would still rather avoid a Tag if possible but not definitely.

Another advert though with no mention of Payload stats. I was posting in two threads on two other forums where I Was asking similar questions. I asked one bloke what his payload was (he has scooter and rack) his answer. Its a 3.5ton van.  I asked another what is payload was. Answer. 160hp. 

Ive given up (again).  Well for now.


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

barryd said:


> Looks nice but too expensive and I would still rather avoid a Tag if possible but not definitely.
> 
> Another advert though with no mention of Payload stats. I was posting in two threads on two other forums where I Was asking similar questions. I asked one bloke what his payload was (he has scooter and rack) his answer. Its a 3.5ton van.  I asked another what is payload was. Answer. 160hp.
> 
> Ive given up (again).  Well for now.


i know its a lot of money,just thought its unusual to see that layout on a newer
Kontiki.
I think you would have plenty of payload for your scooter aswell.:grin2:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

How can anyone afford to buy a van like than and only do so few miles.


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## chilly (Apr 20, 2007)

Great big van like that and just a small under counter fridge! Daft.
Our Bolero is only a two berth and it has a big proper size fridge freezer.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

jo662 said:


> i know its a lot of money,just thought its unusual to see that layout on a newer
> Kontiki.
> *I think you would have plenty of payload for your scooter aswell.*:grin2:


You would think so but I am sure when I looked at them they were not as good as you would imagine and I am sure there was someone on here the other day who reckoned he was overweight on one axle (I think) on a tag.

I am also not sure where you measure the overhang from with a tag to do the rack weight calculation. On a normal van you have to measure from the centre of the rear wheel to where the rack is going to be to work out the "actual" weight of the bike and rack to include the overhang. I have a suspicion with a tag you have to work it out from the middle of the two rear wheels to where the rack is going to be and thats a hell of a long way so would add more weight.

I could be wrong about this though. They do look great though.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Barry

A zillion miles better to drive over my single rear axle Bess as well :smile2:

Corners on rails (and the Comanche has the full size fridge as well...LOADS of beer capacity :grin2

Graham :smile2:


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## deefordog (Dec 31, 2013)

barryd said:


> You would think so but I am sure when I looked at them they were not as good as you would imagine and I am sure there was someone on here the other day who reckoned he was overweight on one axle (I think) on a tag.


Me, and it was on the middle axle - work that one out :crying:


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

Just resurrecting this thread because just seen this Motorhome!:grin2:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-DUCA...565103?hash=item3ac30dce6f:g:b-YAAOSwv~xXES0S


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

jo662 said:


> Just resurrecting this thread because just seen this Motorhome!:grin2:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-DUCA...565103?hash=item3ac30dce6f:g:b-YAAOSwv~xXES0S


Thanks Joe. Looks lovely that. I bet that Aircon unit adds a fair bit to its already limited payload. I might go and have a look at though as its in Wigan which would be en route to the Swift Esprit thats for sale down in Staffs. The Esprit seems to have nearly double the payload of the Kontiki 645 but its also on a 4250kg chassis where the Kontiki is 4005kg. Maybe its made out of cardboard.  I am definitely leaning towards the Esprit but has anyone ever seen one? I certainly havent.


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

barryd said:


> Thanks Joe. Looks lovely that. I bet that Aircon unit adds a fair bit to its already limited payload. I might go and have a look at though as its in Wigan which would be en route to the Swift Esprit thats for sale down in Staffs. The Esprit seems to have nearly double the payload of the Kontiki 645 but its also on a 4250kg chassis where the Kontiki is 4005kg. Maybe its made out of cardboard.  I am definitely leaning towards the Esprit but has anyone ever seen one? I certainly havent.


Yes that's what I thought its reasonable close to you.Didnt know the payload
just saw the layout!:grin2:


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

jo662 said:


> Yes that's what I thought its reasonable close to you.Didnt know the payload
> just saw the layout!:grin2:


They are not as good on payload as the old ones (Well on paper the are not) but it might be an opportunity to weigh one if the dealer can do that. It ticks most of the boxes. However I wonder what the differences are in a Kontiki thats 9 years old costing £33K and a two year old Esprit that looks very similar but is only £5k more at £38.


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