# Competency to Work Safely on MH gas and electrics



## BJT (Oct 31, 2008)

Without trying to be pompous or a kill-joy, some of the questions that are posted on the forum about work on electrics (mains or 12v) and gas cause me great concern. 
As I have recently advised on another post, recent changes to Regulations (2008) mean that work on mains electrics by DIY is limited to simple tasks such as replacing a broken socket or switch. Any significant work must be carried out and certified by a person with the appropriate level of competency and registered with the proper authorities. ANY gas work must be carried out by a competent person registered with Gas Safe, CORGI is now defunct production of a CORGI certificate is no good.
These changes to the regulations were made as too many serious accidents,often fatal, were still occurring. I worked on both gas and electric for many years, and have copies of the current regulations in my library. But I will not do any work on gas systems, or electrics, as it will invalidate all insutance.
I may cost you a whack to get any work done, but your insurance is not imperiled (that a good word for Saturday night); and all responsibility for ensuring a safe installation is in the hands of the registered tradesman. 
12v and 230v do not mix, they are completely different systems. Seek advice if you are at all unsure, but most of all read the instructions!!


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Hi,

I am not sure whether these new regulations apply to motorhomes, I know they do as regards domestic homes like adding new 13 amp spurs etc and maybe a replacement 13amp socket.

Commercial organisations like ourselves do have to have qualified and acredited technicians to carry out chargeable work and it is also a condition of NCC certified workshops but the ordinary motor home owner doing electrical work............... ?

Whilst I definately agree as to gas and appliances being serviced professionaly and thats not because I have a vested interest!

Peter


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## airstream (Jan 7, 2009)

Hi,
Can you please quote the new regs re gas/electrics for privately owned motorhomes and owners who work on them
The last regs exempted private motorhomers the only requirement being that the work was carried out by a competent person -not corgi/gas safe registered or equiv electrical qualification as long as the works were not on hire vehicles or for reward 
To say that a private individual is now not able to work on his/her own vehicle is unenforceable ?
CITO run 2 day courses for caravan "engineers" to enable them to work on customer vehicles - 2 days!!! I was 6 years in my apprentiship and you are saying I am not competent now I am retired 
So more info please specific to owners working on own motorhomes
Ray


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

I don,t believe that V17 of the IEE regs is applicable legally to you working on your own vehicle. Similarly the gas regulations don,t apply to your own mobile as they would in a fixed application. Perhaps they should.
BUT once you sell the vehicle then a lot of responsibility falls on you and if you rent the vehicle out then its a totally different ball game.

The viewpoint of your insurance underwriter would no doubt point you towards applying to all the regs applicable to domestic applications. But I don,t believe that many professionally volume built motorhomes would fully comply anyway with wiring harnesses containing both mains and low voltage cabling in the same sheathing.

I wonder who wants to grasp this nettle?

C.


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## Chudders (Jul 5, 2008)

The changes actually come from BS7671 The 17th Edition of the IEE wiring regulations 2008-1
Section 721 of that document deals with electrical installations in caravans and motor caravans. Section 708 deals with Caravan parks, camping parks and similar location.
The regulations preventing (if you want to use that word) arise from Part P of the building regs which requires electrical work (other than certain minor work) to be carried out by a 'competent person' and certified . Competency is usually proved by membership of one of the government authorised bodies that register electricians EG NAPIT, NIC, ECA etc. Such membership permits self certification of the electrical work. This is however not the end of it as persons can work on their own electrics in a domestic property if they can prove competency in other ways (difficult and unlikely to be accepted) If a person is not so registered then they have to pre notify the work proposed to the local authority building control who charge a fee and will arrange for inspection (I do that for some local authorities as an outside agent). This is all still complicated but applies to the building regs. Whilst the Wiring regs apply by virtue of Section 721 to caravans and motor homes the building regs do not. 
This is a minefield for us in the trade, how members of the public are supposed to be aware is difficult to comprehend.
Even the name of the Wiring regs is complicated. They are published under the banner of the IEE (The institution of electrical engineers) although it is a British Standard. This in spite of the fact that the IEE changed its name in2006 to The IET (The institution of Engineering and Technology.
Also interestingly the wiring regulations are non statutory (unlike The Electricity at Work regs and Health and safety legislation) although they may be used as evidence in a court of law to prove compliance with a statutory regulation.
Sorry to gabble on but it is complicated and I would rather discuss motor homes than work issues. never mind.
Regards Dave MIET ( or am I MIEE)

Disclaimer, I am prone to taking rubbish so take no responsibility for the accuracy or otherwise of the above comments These are just my opinions !!


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Until someone classes my vehicle as a building I'm going to ignore part P of the building regulations which in any case was invented to get more work for the boys (a large proportion of whom I would not allow across my threshold to do electrical work).


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## ovalball (Sep 10, 2008)

sallytrafic said:


> Until someone classes my vehicle as a building I'm going to ignore part P of the building regulations which in any case was invented to get more work for the boys (a large proportion of whom I would not allow across my threshold to do electrical work).


Unfortunately,electricity can be even more lethal in a motorhome than a building.If i was buying a van with obvious electrical additions,i think i would like to know that the work had been carried out by a timeserved electrician and certified accordingly,and not someone who classes himself/herself as competent.


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## badger750 (Nov 1, 2009)

if you do the work yourself and indeed worried about it afterwards the surely getting checked and inspected and signed of by a certified gas/elec fitter would then be ok as its been checked . habitation check would give peace of mind if then selling the motorhome /caravan as this checks the systems for saftey i thought


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## BJT (Oct 31, 2008)

Unfortunately when BS 7671 was revised in 2008 a new section - 721 was introduced, headed ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS IN CARAVANS AND MOTOR CARAVANS.
So, sorry to say, but they are now under the remit of the said BS. I cannot transcribe it verbatim as this will infringe the strict copyright imposed by the BSI.
As I advised in my initial post, you will probably invalidate your insurance unless you have proof of your competency. I regard myself as very competent, but it is because I regard myself in this way that I have to employ someone with the appropriate certificate to do electrical work of any magnitude for me.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I was just going to go for a walk but I had better not as I am not sure if my competency (what a hateful americanisation) certificate covers me for that. 

I will continue to put plugs on electrical appliances. I have only one more word on this, absurd, Alan.


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## airstream (Jan 7, 2009)

*Time served electricians????*

Hi, 
Re comment about time served electricians working on m/homes - I have never seen an installation in any UK motorhome that would have been installed by a time served electrician of my era 
My own m/h is a jumble of loose wiring,poor quality connectors that would be more at home in a model car, mains and 12v cables tied together! and as for "minimum connections in circuits" my mains wiring has a connection via tiny plastic covered pin connectors every few feet including connectors inches from each socket outlet - why? So unskilled labour can "assemble" the wiring harness and ditto fit into the m/home 
In my time the only connections in circuits were at the consumer/fuse unit and at the switch/socket/ceiling rose as each connection in a circuit is regarded as a possible problem and unnecessary extra resistance in the circuit 
As to LPG, just watches a "gas safe" fitter fit a water heater in an ajacent boat hes was SOFT soldering the pipework! enough said 
Ray


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

I think in fairness to the original post, the point was, based on some of the questions being asked, it might be wise for those people to seek professional help before undertaking the work as their questions might lead one to believe that they may not be competant to do it themselves. However I have in the recent passed seen work on undertaken by a professional which wouldn't have passed an electrical inspection, I had to draw this to his attention for correction.

Not all manufacturers get it right and this fault was corrected on their later models when I drew it to their attention.

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-40931-.html

Can you see that the fumes from th B/F are blown straight over the electrics! wasn't very clever.

Wobby


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## TR5 (Jun 6, 2007)

BJT said:


> Without trying to be pompous or a kill-joy, some of the questions that are posted on the forum about work on electrics (mains or 12v) and gas cause me great concern.


I'm with Wobby on this one, and the opening paragraph from the OP says it all, really!

Regardless of whether you (or they) are "allowed" to carry out specific works without qualification, when someone asks the question, it is safe to assume they are possibly not competent to carry out the work required, by the fact that they have had to ask!

Obviously, this assumption does not apply to all, and I would not suggest otherwise.

However, having been (now retired) self employed most of my working life, and working with both gas and electrics, you are taught to "assess the competence" of the person asking the question, before advising they carry out any work.

I must say, that some posts answers have caused me some concern in the past, and (in my opinion) regardless of legislation, we have a moral obligation to advise carefully and correctly when answering posts regarding electricity or gas work, and that obligation may involve advising against the OP carrying out such work!

In my view, if you offer advice, and because of it things go wrong, you are just as responsible as the person carrying out your advice!

 My opinion, of course, and some will not agree!


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Just to muddy the waters a little(?) bit more:_

Even if we get a suitably qualified UK Gas/electric installer/inspector to approve the installation, where do we stand when we are in another country?

Are there any rules ( EU or otherwise ) that say that an approved installation in the country of registration of the vehicle is good anywhere?
If not do we need a certificate every time we cross a border?

I sniff (apologies for Pun) a new business opportunity here!

I feel I may have started a hornet's nest here - well it will keep some amused and irritate others. 

PLUS CA CHANGE! 

Please do not copy this to the EU Commission-it may give them even MORE stupid ideas!!

Geoff


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## BJT (Oct 31, 2008)

Thank you Wobbly & TR5; the original post was aimed at those who appear not to be safe to own a screwdriver and pliers, yet alone use them!
If someone was to ask on this forum if they really have to drive on the right hand side of the road in France & Spain, I think there would a fair few caustic comments!!
Like others I have spent years managing M&E work, contracts and contractors; and have ploughed through innumerable 'risk assessments written by total dipsticks in the process. I have seen electrical work that has made me shudder, diabolical plumbing, and dangerous gas work. Every trade, industry and activity has its fair share of incompetent workers; if we were all the same it would be a dull old world. 
My point is an attempt to protect people from causing serious damage to their own expensive property, and endangering themselves as well.
If you employ someone else who is designated competent by posession of a bit of paper, even if they are a total muppet, you have transferred all responsibility and liability for a safe and workmanlike job to them. They then carry the risk, and you can claim against their insurance if things go badly wrong. If you do it yourself without that bit of paper that designates you as competent, you carry *all *risk yourself. If your insurance company refuses to pay up as the work has not been done by a competent person, you have little choice but to raid your own piggy bank to finance repairs.
Todays rant now over.
TTFN
PS Where do we stand in Europe? British Standards are recognised by Europe and are being progressively 'harmonised' into pan-Europe standards - recognised by EN instead of BS in the reference number prefix. So all BS's are recognised in Europe, but only if the vehicle is UK registered are they fully accepted. EN prefixed standards are recognised and accepted on all European registered vehicles.


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## Chudders (Jul 5, 2008)

I entirely agree with all the comments about safety and ensuring work is caried out in a safe manner. In my opinion mortorhome electrics have the capacity to be more dangerous than domestic situations even if your own van electrics are spot on. Bear in mind that on sites you will be connecting to a third party electricity supply which should (but not necessarily) be safe and inspected and tested. You should see some of the site installations I inspect and test and they have no chance of me issuing a 'Satisfactory' report and wonder why. I am on occasions the worst in the world then for declaring the installation 'unsatisfactory'.
We as motorhomers invariably just turn up and plug in and we have a right to expect the electrics to be safe and 'compliant'. Sadly that is sometimes not the case. We rely on the RCD in the cupboard to provide some protection and the 13amp plug in testers will show basic faults but do nothing to ensure satisfactory 'earth fault loop impedance readings and disconnection times etc etc (Technical bit sorry)
I wonder how many of us even regularly test the mechanical operation of the RCD by pressing the test button.
Thats life I suppose (no pun intended)
Regards, Dave


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## gromett (May 9, 2005)

Chudders said:


> I wonder how many of us even regularly test the mechanical operation of the RCD by pressing the test button.


Thats a good tip there Chudders. I started with a landing and take off list which is now so automatic that I no longer have to refer to it.
On the landing list is the following.
Hookup cable, Van side first, press test button and reset.

As an electrician (years ago) it was a habit I had got into whenever I plugged in anywhere to press the test button each time. I was told at the time it also helped stop the coils in the trip becoming saturated (magnetically) to the point where they stopped working. This trick of test each time was taught to me by the same old boy who insisted that I carry my own padlock around to lock off main power switches to prevent muppets switching it back on when you were working on it and not to rely on the company supplied ones as they all used the same key.

Anyway, enough waffle. I would recommend that when you go onto sites and plug your power in, press the test button then reset...

Karl


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

BJT said:


> even if they are a total muppet, you have transferred all responsibility and liability for a safe and workmanlike job to them. They then carry the risk, and you can claim against their insurance if things go badly wrong.


And if the muppet kills a member of my family? I can bask in the knowledge that's he's insured.

Olley


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## Chudders (Jul 5, 2008)

gromett said:


> Chudders said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder how many of us even regularly test the mechanical operation of the RCD by pressing the test button.
> ...


And the point you make about locking off the power obviously holds good today except they now have to give it an official title 'Safe Isolation Procedure' I reckon it,s called common sense.
Dave


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

BJT said:


> Unfortunately when BS 7671 was revised in 2008 a new section - 721 was introduced, headed ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS IN CARAVANS AND MOTOR CARAVANS.
> So, sorry to say, but they are now under the remit of the said BS. I cannot transcribe it verbatim as this will infringe the strict copyright imposed by the BSI.
> As I advised in my initial post, you will probably invalidate your insurance unless you have proof of your competency. I regard myself as very competent, but it is because I regard myself in this way that I have to employ someone with the appropriate certificate to do electrical work of any magnitude for me.


it's available on the net, I think this is the right one
pdf to download BS 7671 AND SECTION 721

Hope this helps

Kev


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## Pyranha (Jul 4, 2006)

*Have you forgotten about gas?*

In your opening post, you stated:


BJT said:


> ANY gas work must be carried out by a competent person registered with Gas Safe


But you have subsequently only referred to electricity. Unless the THE GAS SAFETY (INSTALLATION AND USE) REGULATIONS 1998 have been superseded, you will find that they include the words "Nothing in these Regulations shall apply in relation to the supply of gas to, or anything done in respect of a gas fitting on - . . . . . a self-propelled vehicle". (That exemption doesn't apply if the vehicle is used for trade)

Can you confirm the regulations now state that you must be registered to undertake gas works on a MH?

Damien

Disclaimer - I am not claiming that anyone *should* do gas work, but questioning the OP's confident statement.


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

How abour gas systems then. Many European motorhome would not pass the UK regulations, but they are all CE marked and allowed to be sold here. For example we insist of "gas drops" for each pipe junction so minimise junctions in our motorhomes tending to group them together so that one gas drop serves all. Many Europeans use straight pipes and connectors all over the place, even in the most up market motorhomes. No gas drops nearby.

C.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I didn't know about those Clive, so in theory we could reject any MH which fails this regulation, or does the CE cert allow it to stand as is.

Kev.


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> it's available on the net, I think this is the right one
> pdf to download BS 7671 AND SECTION 721
> 
> Hope this helps
> ...


That's just an overview Kev. The wiring regs are one of the main income streams for the IET (formerly IEE) so although they may be available via various p2p download sites I would expect the IET (and BSI) lawyers to be pretty hot on anyone who breaks the copyright (on a cursory check I found quite a few dead links).

Paul Rosbotham FIET
(but freely admitting that although I'm a Fellow of the Institution, I know little of wiring so wouldn't profess any expertise or competence!)


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I'll see if I can get further into it, if it's on the net they'd struggle to prosecute anyone.

Kev.


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

Paid up members can I understand download PDF bits of the regs but every page is overwritten with their personal details to make sure that they use it for their own personal use only and not distribute it. I borrowed a copy for a bit of research from a local Nuclear establishment for a few days, but its back now.


Simples


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

*Re: Time served electricians????*



airstream said:


> Hi,
> Re comment about time served electricians working on m/homes - I have never seen an installation in any UK motorhome that would have been installed by a time served electrician of my era
> My own m/h is a jumble of loose wiring,poor quality connectors that would be more at home in a model car, mains and 12v cables tied together! and as for "minimum connections in circuits" my mains wiring has a connection via tiny plastic covered pin connectors every few feet including connectors inches from each socket outlet - why? So unskilled labour can "assemble" the wiring harness and ditto fit into the m/home
> In my time the only connections in circuits were at the consumer/fuse unit and at the switch/socket/ceiling rose as each connection in a circuit is regarded as a possible problem and unnecessary extra resistance in the circuit


I'm with you on this one Airsteam.
After a 6 year apprenticeship I still didn't know everything but it seems now a six week course can produce a competent person to be let lose in peoples homes.
Just because they have a bit of paper saying they have attended said course validates any insurance. 
What a cockeyed system we now have to abide by.

The IEE regs seem to be covering every possible eventuality of some ignoramus might do something stupid. Where common sense and experience should prevail.

I seem to remember a reg where plastic water pipes must be bonded to the plastic water tank??? This was a few IEE versions ago so they just might have figured this one out by now.

We have gone regulation crazy. The French did require I have a gas and electrical check by a certified 'VERITAS' authorised person when going through the registration process of my Hobby.
The inspection took all of three minutes while he checked the date on the gas hose and saw the 230v outlets were French standard. This cost me €227 and involved a 140 mile round trip.

I can sleep much sounder now I know I'm safe.

Ray.


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