# Reverse polarity on the continent



## Ken38 (Mar 24, 2009)

I have had reverse polarity indicated several times when hooked up on the continent. Using one of those little plug in testers.

Is it an actual reverse polarity problem or is their supply +110V and -110V either side of earth?

No guesses please. I can do that myself!

As my van is a continental van and the continentals seem to have no problems with it, it is not clear if it is a real problem.

I believe most modern equipment is double isolated so it really doesn't care either!

Anyone got a good link to a definitive answer?


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

The AC voltage is supposed to be 230volts across the EEC

It should be 230volts line to neutral and line to earth there is no + -

Reversed polarity will mean any switches will be in the neutral and device fuses too rather than the Live. Personally I'm not bothered. The main thing is that the RCD functions, use the test button. If it's not earthed the RCD wont trip on earth fault.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*sorted*

Hello,

Well I will not accept reverse polarity, can be dangerous, can lead to death.

You are already part way there by testing with our socket tester.

You should always have a good earth too.

Easy ways.

Have a 16Amp EHU Plug that twists off an you can swap the N+L around.

Or have a 16Amp EHU plug and lead set with crossed over cables pre-wired.

Other ways including manual and automatic switching in the motorhome.

TM


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## Ken38 (Mar 24, 2009)

Yes the fuses and breakers are potentially the biggest issue. The + - was purely indicative as it is AC but you will get 115V measured from both line and neutral to earth and 230V across line and neutral if it is set up that way. But I doubt that very much.

Why do the continentals seem not to care? Is because they protect each circuit back at the supply?

Does anyone have a definitive answer or a pointer to some research?

Cheers


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*care*



Ken38 said:


> Yes the fuses and breakers are potentially the biggest issue. The + - was purely indicative as it is AC but you will get 115V measured from both line and neutral to earth and 230V across line and neutral if it is set up that way. But I doubt that very much.
> 
> Why do the continentals seem not to care? Is because they protect each circuit back at the supply?
> 
> ...


Who knows why many don't care. But if the electricity provided is not earth seeking, may be another answer.

Other answer, ````````manana..................Zzz


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## Ken38 (Mar 24, 2009)

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-9829.html#9829

This post really implies it doesn't matter on the continent because they protect the circuit further back.

We protect at the plug with our 3, 5 or 13 Amp fuse.

So our fuse protection is redundant on the continent but reverse polarity in the UK is perhaps more serious as an earthed "neutral" could then cause a major problem as it would really be an earthed live with no circuit fuse protection!

I will make up a lead to correct polarity. When I get my next reversed polarity hookup I will do some careful investigation!

And re-reading the post. Testing the RCD is a very, very sensible suggestion!! That should keep you safe from electrocution and fire!

I guess that's why they don't worry.


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## pete4x4 (Dec 20, 2006)

The continental standard is for both live and neutral to be switched. That's why they don't care, no terminal can ever be live when switched off.
Uk on the other hand only switch the live so reverse the polarity and the neutral becomes live so you can get a shock when switched off

Pete


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## loddy (Feb 12, 2007)

This is worse than GAS ATTACKS, grow up

Loddy


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

pete4x4 said:


> The continental standard is for both live and neutral to be switched. That's why they don't care, no terminal can ever be live when switched off.
> Uk on the other hand only switch the live so reverse the polarity and the neutral becomes live so you can get a shock when switched off
> 
> Pete


Pete indeed has the definitive answer. Your Hymer has double pole switched sockets, so worry not.

Dave


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## BrianJP (Sep 17, 2010)

pete4x4 said:


> The continental standard is for both live and neutral to be switched. That's why they don't care, no terminal can ever be live when switched off.
> Uk on the other hand only switch the live so reverse the polarity and the neutral becomes live so you can get a shock when switched off
> 
> Pete


Thats only true if the socket is switched.I have never stayed in a hotel in France and seen switched sockets and in Spain where I have a house they are almost unheard of.! Also there you can plug into a socket either way round so there is a 50/50 chance of having reversed polarity presented to an appliance.


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## rugbyken (Jan 16, 2006)

one of the first posts i read on here [that persuaded me to part with my tenner] suggested carrying a second reversed adapter


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## bktayken (Oct 11, 2008)

*RCD polarity switch*

Brian JP.
The double pole switch protection is at the Fuse Board via the RCD switch the one with the reset button on it not at each socket.All Spanlsh houses have these its the law.
If you want protection in the van then get an RCD switch fitted in the fuse box problem solved. No needs for extra external cables adaptors etc.

Brian


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Bit of an emotive subject and Loddy I think your post a little nasty as most everyone will have a healthy fear of electricity (or should have unless they are reckless or silly). In France switched socket outlets are very rare, the norm has always been to protect both live and neutral and all RCD's protect both live and neutral, as mentioned earlier a good idea would be to get the isolation switch on your incoming supply changed for an RCD not a lot of cost for security, safety and peace of mind.
As to likening to gas attacks the probability of harm from electricity is REAL unlike the other myth.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

According to my friend who is a very highly qualified electrical engineer, the definitive answer is twofold.

*1).* Always better to be safe than sorry, so if your van doesn't have double pole switching or an RCD, and you want to carry a tester and a reversing adapter, that's fine.

*2).* But realistically the only time you would be in any danger is if you took the appliance apart and firtled around inside it . . . _*without *_unplugging it from the mains.

"Reversed polarity" is a misnomer, since alternating current reverses itself fifty times every second anyway!!!

What it really refers to (as has been said) is the position of the switch on the appliance. If the "polarity" is reversed the switch operates as the leccy _*exits *_the appliance, so even if it (the switch on the appliance) is switched off, the innards will still be "live".

If the "polarity" is correct the switch on the appliance will be the first thing the leccy encounters, so switching it off will isolate the innards from the current.

Nobody but a total dimwit would ever poke about inside an appliance without first unplugging it from the mains, so in reality there isn't much to worry about, whether the "polarity" is reversed or not.

Hope this helps.

Dave 

P.S. I know - some of this is very much over-simplified, but it's important for those without much electrical knowhow to understand and be reassured.


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

I thought I kept it simple :lol: pretty much said the same and I said the most important thing was to prove the RCD is working :wink:


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Techno100 said:


> I thought I kept it simple :lol: pretty much said the same and I said the most important thing was to prove the RCD is working :wink:


With all due respect Techno, I think I'm simpler than you are! :lol: :lol:

Your point about the earth "_If it's not earthed the RCD wont trip on earth fault_." is important, but I left it out to avoid confusion.

On reflection I think it should be emphasised since an Earth fault is potentially far more dangerous than reversed "polarity".

As far as I know all the test meters we M/Hers are likely to carry will test for a good Earth, and it's certainly worth checking that.

Dave


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

Zebedee said:


> *2).* But realistically the only time you would be in any danger is if you took the appliance apart and firtled around inside it . . . _*without *_unplugging it from the mains.


That's exactly my view Dave : we're not quite in gas attack territory because there is a legitimate underlying concern, but it is somewhat overblown. But NB "poking around" in an appliance extends to e.g. changing a light bulb as the terminals will be live even when turned off (or at least could be, depending on the details of whether the manufacturer fitted a single or dual pole switch). If doing _anything_ of that ilk, safe thing is to disconnect a reverse polarity supply while you do it. Personally I don't bother remedying reverse polarity, but do check for a proper earth.

One question for Autotrail owners : I notice the Sargent power supply has a reverse polarity warning indicator. Does anyone know if it (a) simply gives a warning, (b) won't allow operation if it detects, or (c) warns and "un-reverses" the polarity? The manuals are less than clear. I would hope (c) or (a)....(b) would be a pain in the proverbial....

Paul


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

Ah well I wont argue :lol: 
The Earth pin you might notice on a 16 amp commando is the BIGGEST pin. The size of the cable is important because if the earth loop impedance is too high the RCD tripping time will be too slow to completely remove the risk of a fatal shock. This is 0.4 of a second maximum but modern devices achieve much faster disconnection.
This is why extension leads are not made longer than 25 metres and usually 2.5mm cable as length and size affect volt drop and resistance (impedance)
It's not the voltage that kills you it's the current and it is 50milliamps or more that can interfere with your brain waves enough to stop your heart. This is why RCD's trip before 30ma is leaked.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi Paul

Excellent point about changing a light bulb etc.. :wink:

It's always safer to disconnect _*any *_supply, whether or not the "polarity" is correct. It takes only a second's lack of concentration to stick a finger in a light bulb socket, and it don't half tingle if it's switched on!!!! 8O  

I think I can partially answer your question about the Sargent panel, since we also have one. We have plugged into a "reversed polarity" supply in France, and everything still worked fine . . . so I think your option (b) is not going to be a pain!

I think the answer is option (a) but I agree that the manual isn't very clear on that issue. (I'll have another look now my interest has been aroused. :wink: )

Dave


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Techno100 said:


> Ah well I wont argue :lol:
> The Earth pin you might notice on a 16 amp commando is the BIGGEST pin. The size of the cable is important because if the earth loop impedance is too high the RCD tripping time will be too slow to completely remove the risk of a fatal shock. This is 0.4 of a second maximum but modern devices achieve much faster disconnection.
> This is why extension leads are not made longer than 25 metres and usually 2.5mm cable as length and size affect volt drop and resistance (impedance)


Which raises another interesting point.

Some Continental hook-up cables are clearly much thinner than ours, although it may be due to a different thickness in the sheathing, rather than the cable diameter.

If the cable is substantially thinner that would suggest a possibility of several problems would it not, as well as the one you highlight here?

Dave

P.S. Interesting thread this has become.


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## BrianJP (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: RCD polarity switch*



bktayken said:


> Brian JP.
> The double pole switch protection is at the Fuse Board via the RCD switch the one with the reset button on it not at each socket.All Spanlsh houses have these its the law.
> If you want protection in the van then get an RCD switch fitted in the fuse box problem solved. No needs for extra external cables adaptors etc.
> 
> Brian


I am well aware of that but that does not prevent polarity reversal at a socket that is why in the UK there is a wiring convention for live and neutral.Indeed modern UK domestic installations also have double pole circuit breakers but of course these only isolate the supply if overloaded they do not offer any other protection that is the job of the RCCD which protects neutral as well as live.


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

Not all European countries have the same supply system.

Norway for example still has three types of local distribution.
1 Like ours 230(ish) VAC with neutral bonded to earth at the local sub station.
2 230(ish) VAC with the mid point bonded to earth at the local sub station. (In reality its across two limbs of a 230 V three phase supply star connected with earth at the star point.)
3 230(ish) VAC with no local earth bonding at all. (Like 2 but with no bonding)

Just ensure that your RCD works and switches off BOTH poles.

C.


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

Zebedee said:


> Techno100 said:
> 
> 
> > Ah well I wont argue :lol:
> ...


I've seen allsorts used in France and all colours. Not neccessarily safe and many wind up extensions not unwound. Use the correct equipment. We have IEE regs in this country that cover caravans etc and caravan sites, they're supposed to be a european standard :lol: :lol:


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Techno100 said:


> I've seen allsorts used in France and all colours. Not neccessarily safe and many wind up extensions not unwound. Use the correct equipment. :lol: :lol:


I've even seen three of the thinner 25 metre hook-up cables linked together so a van could reach the hook up!!!

Bet his kettle didn't boil as quickly as usual! :lol: :lol:

Dave


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## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

:lol: 
Yes it's been often pointed out that you must completely unwind extension cables and they've said it will get hotter coiled given the same amount of current BUT it's often overlooked that the bigger risk is that the increased resistance will affect the RCD tripping time adversley


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

All electricity can be dangerous in the right set of circumstances. But mostly in the event of a fault all we get is a slight tingle as some residual volts find their way to earth via us.

Today there are so many new rules and regs to protect us with ELCB and RCDs we should never get the full volts across our bodies which are 90% water and very good conductors.

France has come along way since the war in introducing vast new regs called 'norms'. Any new installation in France should comply with the new regs and be super safe. But just like the UK where most of our existing ring main electrical installations can be as old as 50 to 60 years, you can still find the old two pin sockets originally fed from the lighting circuits and potentially unsafe.

I chose to 'lift' the earth from our RV power sockets due to their habit of centre tapping the earth. Now most of our visitors are in Euro vans the earth has been reinstated. But we do have a drinks fridge that can give a tingle to visiting friends who I suggest make themselves at home and get a drink..!!! 

A RCD will protect you. Make sure you have one in the van.

Ray.


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