# A Question For any Experienced Runners Out There



## jimmyd0g (Oct 22, 2009)

I know from other threads that are some experienced runners out there, so I hope that at least one of you can help me with the following query, please:-
As a newcomer to running (& without me having anything like a heart rate monitor to aid the calculation) is there an formula that shows how much running up a slope relates to running on the flat? 
A specific example:-
In my local park, where I do most of my running, is an uphill stretch of 570 yards (according to Google). The pathway is not Mount Everest, but it is a continuous climb. Allowing for the fact that people will vary according to their own fitness levels, what would those 570 yards convert to on a level pathway?
Thanks for any help.


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## ThePrisoner (Jan 13, 2009)

Cant help sorry. I am knackered just reading it.

:wink: :lol: :wink:


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## Mike48 (May 1, 2005)

I doubt whether such a calculation exists as it depends on an individual's level of fitness.

I suppose you could measure your pulse on the flat after 570 yards and then do the same for the slope which would enable you to calculate your heartbeats over that distance for each surface. But that would not be a particularly helpful calculation as exercise is about the whole body and not just the heart. 

In fact I'm not - and never have been - a serious runner but was a qualified SRA (now lapsed) coach where relevant exercise is more geared to stop/start sprinting/circuit training than distance running. I might be a bit out of date exercise wise but those are my initial thoughts.

One piece of advice as you are new to running. Don't do the kind of daft things I used to do by running with a rucksack on my back with a couple of bricks inside and a lead weight around each of my knees. All that achieved was a dodgy back which led to 20 years of virtual inactivity. Build up your fitness gradually, buy decent shoes and run where possible on the grass as hard surfaces can damage your knees and back even with good shoes.


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## jimmyd0g (Oct 22, 2009)

ThePrisoner said:


> Cant help sorry. I am knackered just reading it.
> 
> :wink: :lol: :wink:


I understand what you mean.  No easy way to ask what is quite a technical question, which is why I titled the thread as I did.
Hope you recover from your knackeredness soon. :lol:


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## busterbears (Sep 4, 2010)

Hi Jimmyd0g,

Good to hear your 5k race training is going well. 

I wouldn't get too hung up on how a climb relates to a flat, it won't ever be flat, it wil always be a hill unless a bulldozer appears in front of you, and unless you track run you'll experience gradients.
Rather than dropping your pace because you are climbing, try and keep your steady flat terrain pace and work your heart/lungs a bit harder (they can take it) each time you run up the hill try and get a little further before you have to either walk/slow down. Eventually you'll be able to manage it without slowing down or stopping and you'll feel the smaller gradients less as a result. 
The knack of running uphill is to keep your hips level, stay upright (don't lean into the hill), keep your shoulders back a bit more giving your lungs plenty room, lift your knees a little higher than when running on the flat and use your arms to help you.
Your breathing will feel more laboured and you might feel a little light headed to start with at the top when pushing a little harder uphill, but you're also training your heart and lung muscles as well as your legs, arms and core.
Once you've comfortably conquered this hill at normal pace, find a steeper one and go through the process again, the sense of achievement is great and your first hill then feels like a doddle!

I ran on saturday morning, 2nd run back after 6 months off with a long term achilles problem caused by over training and running on an injury. The first run was hellish I felt like I was stumbling along just waiting to vomit. Saturdays run was much better, did 3.5 miles although 1 minute per mile slower than I usually run, muscle memory kicked in and my legs knew what to do. 

Keep up the good training, the weather is improving and there's nothing nicer than an early morning run with the sun on your back. Remember to vary your route, gradient, surface often and set yourself mini challenges along the way.

Look forward to hearing more of your progress.


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## CourtJester (Aug 26, 2009)

Hello jimmyd0g

I run, sorry jog, three times a week for 60 mins at the gym. My run rate is a constant 6.8 kms an hour. I choose what is termed a 'random' climb setting on the treadmill . This setting returns varying climbs from flat to 1.5 meters. and the maximum time at any one climb is 90 seconds before a random change in climb occurs. This results in an average climb of 38 metres in a distance of 6.8 kilometres.

I have been told by more serious runners than I that it is important to include a climb(s) and indeed to try and maintain the same pace throughout.

Much easier to achieve at the gym.


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## jimmyd0g (Oct 22, 2009)

busterbears, thanks for these really kind words of encouragement. I will take on board what you have said along with gelathae's earlier advice.
I'm fortunate that I have any number of variable routes from home - wether it be out of the front door & start running or jump in the car (sacrilege, I know  ) & drive just over a mile to the local park. Within the park I've got everything that I need to vary the routine (long flats; long climbs; short sharp climbs; off-tarmac trails; grassy banks), so that will be where the bulk of my training will take place. The 12 days warm weather training in France over Easter will also help. :wink: 
Incidentally, this morning was a major milestone for me. 2.1 miles _non-stop running (fast jog really)_ - including the 570 yard climb - in just over 21 minutes. _Me_ running 2 miles non-stop? Amazing!!


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

Jimmydog,
I walk with the dog every day and every hill leaves me well out breath and feel like vommitting. My dog, who's legs are only 9" long runs up many hills in a day without being even slightly out of breath.
How does she do that then?


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## CourtJester (Aug 26, 2009)

Sorry jimmyd0g, I forgot to mention that my climb setting is the lowest possible.  

Well, I have been poorly.


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## busterbears (Sep 4, 2010)

jimmyd0g said:


> busterbears, thanks for these really kind words of encouragement. I will take on board what you have said along with gelathae's earlier advice.
> I'm fortunate that I have any number of variable routes from home - wether it be out of the front door & start running or jump in the car (sacrilege, I know  ) & drive just over a mile to the local park. Within the park I've got everything that I need to vary the routine (long flats; long climbs; short sharp climbs; off-tarmac trails; grassy banks), so that will be where the bulk of my training will take place. The 12 days warm weather training in France over Easter will also help. :wink:
> Incidentally, this morning was a major milestone for me. 2.1 miles _non-stop running (fast jog really)_ - including the 570 yard climb - in just over 21 minutes. _Me_ running 2 miles non-stop? Amazing!!


jimmyd0g - never say jog, you're a runner, on your way to becoming an athlete by virtue of a training regime, competition and performance expectation. 2.1 miles non-stop is a great milestone and 21+ mins time is excellent. 5k is now well within your capabilities, its only 1608metres further than you've already run! If you can do the climb within your run its definitely time to find a bigger/steeper hill and push a bit harder  
Feel free to PM me anytime if I can help.


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## Alfa_Scud (Sep 27, 2006)

Hiya JD

Must admit I don't know of a simple equation of hill vs effort, but you definately need more effort to go up 'em!! 

BB's tips for hill running are quite good if you're on tarmac or grass banks etc, but if you stray off on to steeper stuff you'll find the opposite works better; lean into the hill, bend over your lower legs & use your hands to support your knees. To be fair that is only on steeper stuff when your pace drops to a point where you're practically walking anyway.

Try & relax your upper body, don't use your arms unless you have too, it's wasted effort unless you're sprinting! Hill work is excellent for building aerobic capacity & increasing VOmax (the amount of oxygen you utilise while exercising). It also help your recovery after effort e.g. in a race, after a tough climb, you'll be knackered for a shorter period once you reach the top!

I wouldn't worry too much about _how much_ effort you're putting in, just know that it is more & you will benefit, but don't drive yourself into the ground with it, start gently & increase gradually. As a rule of thumb you shouldn't increase by more than 10% a week, whether that's time, mileage, effort or whatever.

As a general indicator as to effort, I would say that if I'm running off road / hills I'll burn a minimum of 30% more calories for the same distance on a flattish road course; I did a recce run of the Yorkshire 3 peaks on Saturday & did 3,800 calories, the last time I raced the Edinburgh marathon I burned 2,300!!!

Remember one thing though - stretch afterwards!!! I still don't stretch enough & it causes massive problems with flexibility.

You're two thirds of the way to completing your first 5k - That is a great achievement, & if you can do 2.1 non stop, you'll easy get round the whole lot when the day comes given you've still got time! You've already completed it with the positive attitude you're adopting, keep it up there'll be no stopping you!

Again as BB says, You Are A Runner! People who have never done it refer to it as jogging - they know nothing! _Edit: GG that goes for you too!!!_


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## teljoy (Jul 4, 2005)

jimmyd0g said:


> Incidentally, this morning was a major milestone for me. 2.1 miles _non-stop running (fast jog really)_ - including the 570 yard climb - in just over 21 minutes. _Me_ running 2 miles non-stop? Amazing!!


And always remember that feeling of achievement at the end. I know you experienced it!
I do a 7 mile run three times a week and the first mile ends in a climb which is very steep (some walkers tackle it slowly). I find that if on my own I enjoy listening on my mp3 player to the morning talk shows and arguing with the presenters. It takes your mind off the effort needed for the climb. Also during the climb I look down rather than at the top of the hill. I find it helps I've been doing this route for some years now and can notice the improvement.
Went out with my neighbour's 14 year old son a couple of years ago and almost kept up with him on the hill. Must admit though that I completed the rest of the route at a lot slower pace!

Lots of luck with your training but it sounds like you don't need it.

Terry


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## CourtJester (Aug 26, 2009)

busterbears said:


> jimmyd0g said:
> 
> 
> > Incidentally, this morning was a major milestone for me. 2.1 miles _non-stop running (fast jog really)_ - including the 570 yard climb - in just over 21 minutes. _Me_ running 2 miles non-stop? Amazing!!
> ...





Alfa_Scud said:


> People who have never done it refer to it as jogging...


Blimey, what have I started here??!! The rampant runners are attacking the jaded jogger!

I didn't know there was anything wrong with 'jog'. :roll:

A jog is a running speed less than 9.7 kms per hour according the definition that I have.

If the 'it' Alfa_Scud is referring to is a 5k run, you're right, I haven't, but I have completed two 10k runs at a jogging pace, (75km/h and 77 km/h).

Maybe the real serious runners don't like to jog, but I do, and I reckon jimmyd0g is more of a jogger that a runner. :lol:


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## jimmyd0g (Oct 22, 2009)

GG222 said:


> Maybe the real serious runners don't like to jog, but I do, and I reckon jimmyd0g is more of a jogger that a runner. :lol:


Personally, I don't care _what_ I am, provided that I've got enough energy to come on here on the evening of the 8th May & bore you all with every step of my first 5k. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## CourtJester (Aug 26, 2009)

Easy, easy, easy. 

Go for it my jogging friend. :lol:


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## Alfa_Scud (Sep 27, 2006)

GG222 said:


> If the 'it' Alfa_Scud is referring to is a 5k run, you're right, I haven't, but I have completed two 10k runs at a jogging pace, (75km/h and 77 km/h).
> Maybe the real serious runners don't like to jog, but I do, and I reckon jimmyd0g is more of a jogger that a runner. :lol:


Now I know you're a runner - 75km/h has never seen a jog, my bloody car only just does that :lol: !!

To be serious though, for once in my life, many people put themselves down by saying "jogger", it sometimes does nothing for your confidence. If you personally are happy with the term, stick to it, I was just trying to help a little. Oh look now that sounds like I'm sulking & I don't mean it like...... I meant, oh ba**s to it, you know what I mean - I hope 

Anyway, I'm off to put my trainers on & go out for a trot :lol:


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## busterbears (Sep 4, 2010)

GG222 if you're going at 75kmph and 77 kmph for 10k then you're sitting above Mo Farah in the world rankings :lol: doing about 45 miles per hour!

The treadmills in our local gym say 3kmph is walking speed, 6kmph is jogging speed and 9kmph is running speed - but its not about the numbers its how you view it, and to me it feels like running, the sweating and red face are proof of that


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## ramblingon (Jul 15, 2009)

BillCreer said:


> Jimmydog,
> I walk with the dog every day and every hill leaves me well out breath and feel like vommitting. My dog, who's legs are only 9" long runs up many hills in a day without being even slightly out of breath.
> How does she do that then?


Very low gear/tiny stride.


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## CourtJester (Aug 26, 2009)

GG222 said:


> ...but I have completed two 10k runs at a jogging pace, (75km/h and 77 km/h).


Superman I am not!! :lol: :lol:

More to the point: 7.5km/h, 7.7km/h.  

That's made me laugh. Cheers.


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## midlifecrisismil (Sep 27, 2009)

Hi Jimmydog

HWMBO (who is a RUNNER never a jogger of many years and does silly things like the OMM and the Saunders - a two day event in the lakes running and carrying all the stuff for food/camping etc) says take off your watch and enjoy the run - which is a very strange thing for him to say because I get chapter and verse on his distance/time every time he comes back from a run :? :? 

Milly


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## CourtJester (Aug 26, 2009)

midlifecrisismil said:


> Hi Jimmydog
> 
> HWMBO (who is a RUNNER never a jogger ... ...says take off your watch and enjoy the run - which is a very strange thing for him to say because I get chapter and verse on his distance/time every time he comes back from a run :? :?
> 
> Milly


Why the capitals for 'runner'? It strikes me that there are a few stuffy, snotty opinions here swiped at joggers. :roll:

Anyway, if your acquaintance takes his watch off, he may well be under the average of 9.7 kph. That would make his 'run' by definition a jog.

Just try to keep fit. If you want to walk, fine. If you want to jog, fine, if you want to run, well just fine.


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