# LGV Licence (USRV) - a reply from the DVLA



## 88883

Just a note to advise that in the April 2005 issue of American RV magazine has a whole page reply regarding the DVLA rules on UK driving licences ( C C1 D1 etc ) and driving various tonnage vehicles ie: USRV 
The reply comes from DVLA customer complaints co-ordinator Swansea.

The highly recommended USRV magazine cannot be bought in the shops; it's only available from AB Publishing (ARVM) 27 Nether End, Great Dalby, LE14 2EY 08700 115 111 www.arvm.uk.com

chrisandee

no we're not on commission  
we have no connection with ABP whatsoever.


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## 88724

Hi 

The DVLA do not make rules or law, regarding what licence to drive which vehicle, anything they say usually as this proviso at the bottom.

DVLA cannot give legal advice on how vehicles are classified for driving licence purposes. We can only give general guidance. The Vehicle Standards and Engineering Division, Great Minster House, 76 Marsham St, London, SW1P 4DR,(0207 944 2064), may be able to help classify a vehicle that falls under - Works Trucks, Agricultural Motor Vehicles, Industrial Tractors and Engineering Plant but only for the purposes of its Construction and Use.


This information is not intended to be a definitive statement of law.

Not a bad magazine at all if you like the american stuff, they tend to have to much line dancing and the south will rise again BS. Definition of to much = even hinting


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## 88808

What does the article say, I've not had a chance to read it?


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## 88883

Hi George - thanks for your words of wisdom - however I'm only advising of the publication of a reply from the DVLA - I'm not giving my opinion  
Don't shoot the messenger  

Sorry Jonathan, I can't reproduce the reply here, last time I tried that on an article about Ben & Lizzie I was deleted by an invisible moderator  

Chris


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## RobMD

I've just swopped my tatty old paper licence for a new Photocard Licence.

In the Info booklet on Page 13 section 9 Motorhomes, it states:-

"When driving a motorhome it is the Maximum Authorised Mass (the Total weight of the vehicle plus the maximum load it can carry) which is relevant in determining the driving entitlement you need.

To drive any vehicle including a Motorhome:

Between 3.5 & 7.5 tonnes, you need a category C1 licence.

Over 7.5 tonnes, you need a category "C" licence."

So they are now stating the requirements with respect to motorhomes specifically.


What is also stated in a box half-way down page 10 is the following:-

If you passed category "B" or "B" Automatic test before 1 January 1997, your licence will already show C1, C1E (8.25 tonnes), D1, D1E (not for hire or reward) as entitlement flowing from the category "B". Although these limited categories are included in your licence:

If you want EC/EEA entitement to drive medium/large vehicles and minibuses/buses, you must apply for the appropriate provisional entitlement, and

you must not apply for Theory or Practical tests until the entitlement is shown on your licence.



The above appear to state that if your van is between 3.5 & 7.5 tonnes, you are entitled to drive it in the UK, but must take a test before driving it in Europe (Medium/large vehicles. are 3500kg. and over).

And yet on Page 16, Section12 Driving in other countries, it states that:-

You may use your GB licence for driving in all other EC/EEA countries


So have we been sold down the river on our C1, C1E, D1 and D1E entilements???
If so it will cause a lot of trouble with those who tour Europe in larger Motorhomes.


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## 88724

Hi Chris

Not shooting the messenger, just pointing out a fact, people might mistakenly accept DVLA opinion as LAW

If you reproduce an Article you would need to comment on it, ie a fair use would be to reproduce the Article then air your views on it, or reproduce small section with credits to support or rebutt.

which of course I realise you know as a legal eagle


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## 88742

Just an aside from the legal wranglings, when we picked up the new van they had forgotten to replace the 3500kgs plate with the new 3800kgs one and the fitter had gone home, because we'd had a long handover I said I'd do it myself and took the new plate home and swapped them over. 

What this means is when I come to sell the vehicle I can offer both plates to the new owner so they can swap the plates over at their will whenever they need the lower plate  







............................. Calm down George it's only a joke  


I keep looking into these threads on licences and the issue sure seems to raise a few questions, who knows what the future will bring :? 

In the meantime I just hope to keep my licence (Which has more boxes ticked than Grannie's Bingo card) intact until the dreaded medicals swipe it from me.

Ian


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## 88808

Whilst we have a current licence thread;

I had a phone call from my brother the other night, he is at the Scottish police college this week doing a traffic course. He has been quizzing the instructors who teach all of the Scottish forces: traffic officers, they agree with the DVLA with regard to motorhome driving licences.

He also asked about the drink driving issue. They said that whilst they would urge a common sense approach they would if they felt necessary arrest a person found over the drink drive limit "in charge" of a motorhome. So you can read into that what you want.

edit;

Sorry I forgot to add: 

He also said that if a person was arrested on a charge of being "in charge" of a motor vehicle whilst under the influence of drink, the onus would be on the driver to prove they did not intend driving until they were below the legal limit. The police would present the material facts to the Procurator Fiscal (in Scotland), it would then be up to them if the case would be pursued or not.


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## 88724

Hi

So they are now stating the requirements with respect to motorhomes specifically. 

If you ask them to back this up they will send you a leaflet which again states its their view, if you ask then to quote the law they cannot (they do pronounce the licencing laws) but when you point out that the preceding law only covers Goods vehicles specifically they claim a motorhome is a goods vehicle and then say that C&U in marsham classify the vehicles, when you ring marsham they say that a motorhome is DEFINATELY not a goods vehicle. I went backwards and forwards with their (DVLA'S) legal dept and they never could show that motorhomes are weight specific

Basically it eneded up that either all motorhomes over 3.5 tonnes are illegal to drive or they are all legal to drive as long as you have passed your car test. 

Jonathon Quote

I had a phone call from my brother the other night, he is at the Scottish police college this week doing a traffic course. He has been quizzing the instructors who teach all of the Scottish forces: traffic officers, they agree with the DVLA with regard to motorhome driving licences. 

End Quote

Amazing fact they agree with the DVLA, but what does this mean in the real world absolute diddly squat, the Police training college agree with DVLA opinion? and neither can actually quote the law (which would be required at court as the CPS have already found out.

Jonathon Quote 2

They said that whilst they would urge a common sense approach they would if they felt necessary arrest a person found over the drink drive limit "in charge" of a motorhome. So you can read into that what you want. 

Which tells us ? That they urge a common sense approach, but that if they felt it necessary.....................

ie dont arrest them unless (well the next bits a secret it depends on plods feelings.

Neither statement actually helps.

Try this though the CPS are not aware of a single case against a motorhome occupant.

On the license issue

The CPS did once try to bring a case against a Driver with no C licence, who was driving in the fast lane of the motorway (where no HGV should be) He admitted to driving it in his statement and the police who arrested him were witnesses. There is also I believe police camera evidence.

One other point is that he was driving on behalf of a motorhome company and therefore is Journey was of a commercial nature, if that didnt clinch it for the CPS one as got to wonder why? maybe because as marsham say a motorhome is NOT a goods nehicle.

After the cps adjourned twice on the third court date they dropped the case due to lac of evidence (none of the evidence as gone missing BTW)

So in the real world.............

Myself and Jonathon agree on one thing it would be far better to get the specialist training to drive a large vehicle, we differ in that he believes the DVLA and Police academy waffle (great film police acadamy) that its ilegal I and the DVLA cannot find a law that actually says it is.

On drink driving or in charge I am totally against it, it all depends on your intent, if you can show the officer that by the state (ie beds out washing in sink external silver screen in place levelers down) the inside of you vehicle that you have absolutely no intention of driving, unless he's a pedantic git that would be the end of it. If you are just trying to wissle out of it and did intend to drive hopefully they will throw the book at you.


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## 88808

> Amazing fact they agree with the DVLA, but what does this mean in the real world absolute diddly squat, the Police training college agree with DVLA?


It means that every traffic officer in Scotland has been taught the requirements as per the DVLA, so therefor if you drive a 12 tonne motorhome on a B licence in Scotland you are likely to be nicked. Regardless of wether you can squirm out of it with a fly lawyer is another thing altogether.



> Try this though the CPS are not aware of a single case against a motorhome occupant.


That may or may not be the case, but in Scotland the traffic officers are of the opinion they can arrest you if you are over the limit in a motorhome. And that it is up to the driver to prove they did not intend driving until they were below the limit.


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon

Quote

so therefor if you drive a 12 tonne motorhome on a B licence in Scotland you are likely to be nicked

And yet strangely no-one is ?


The police must be as blind to large motorhomes up in Scotland as they are down here then. Because there are loads about, of the people I have spoken to ONLY one as the licence THAT you say is required, I make that about 1 in 30 all OVER 7.5 tonnes rated for definate. Over 2 years I have been looking into this. Several have been stopped and had to produce their documents andnot even a quizzical eyebrow as been raised.


Otherwise why are there no cases, uness of course the law doesnt support it ..................


Re the Drunk In Charge, obviously supports the fact that the police excercise common sense and therefore there is no need to go about scaring motorhomers, with posts that suggest they will be arrested for sniffing a drink with no intent to drive.. The lack of prosecutions supports my position that common sense prevails.

Being taught something in college does not make it right or the law.

I was being taught electronics at college, the tutor was demonstrating some theory on the blackboard I raised my hand to say it was incorrect the tutor looked at his text book and then the board and said OK smart arse show us all were its wrong, so I did.

When doing my accountancy exams Just prior to Finals we were given last years test to complete, I answered the main question, but had to point out that I had assumed a certain set of figures otherwise the question was impossible to answer, Tutor was amazed because that meant.


The person writing the test had cocked up
The people who checked it also cocked up
Thousands of students did the exam and never noticed
The markers marked the exam and did not notice
A book was later published with the same question and same missing info

The above shows 2 main points

1. why I never take it for granted that the information given to me is correct even if by the acknowledged expert in any field

2. and that even if every policeman in the country was taught the same wrong thing it still doesnt make it right or make it law.


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## 88808

> Re the Drunk In Charge, obviously supports the fact that the police excercise common sense and therefore there is no need to go about scaring motorhomers, with posts that suggest they will be arrested for sniffing a drink with no intent to drive.. The lack of prosecutions supports my position that common sense prevails.


I think common sense on the part of motorhomers is probably responsible for the lack of prosecutions.

You told me to tell my brother he is wrong, so he has gone to the top and asked the questions. I have stated the answers he was given. I don't make the law or enforce it.


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## 88808

> 2. and that even if every policeman in the country was taught the same wrong thing it still doesnt make it right or make it law.


Ok I admit, I am wrong, the police are wrong, the DVLA, DSA and VOSA are wrong. :wink:


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon

Quote


You told me to tell my brother he is wrong, so he has gone to the top and asked the questions. I have stated the answers he was given. I don't make the law or enforce it.

I can't remember telling you what to do re your brother, but thats by the by, the top is not college tutors see, my last post. The top would be the law lords for a ruling, but as the CPS rolled over, in my opinion when they realised the law doesnt support the case of motorhomes being GV, their stated reason of lack of evidence does not make sense and is in any case obviously not true as they have got statements from police and an admission by the driver, according to what you, the DVLA, your brother and the police academy are saying, he was bang to rights guv and yet they withdrew saying insufficient evidence and paid all costs, the reality of course is that it was insufficient law to back their case.


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## 88724

Hi 


Quote from Jonathon 

Ok I admit, I am wrong, the police are wrong, the DVLA, DSA and VOSA are wrong

End treasured Quote


The first three I agree with, not sure what the DSA say, so cannot reaqlly comment, However VOSA unless they have changed their position are not wrong, because they agree a motorhome is not a goods vehicle and their test centers MOT it as a non GV

Let that be an end to the matter


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## 88808

Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:40 pm



> Hi Jonathon
> 
> Your brother is wrong


http://www.motorhomefacts.com/postp48907.html&highlight=#48907

George the DSA are the body who administer the driving test and set the syllabus for driver training. They issue pass certificates which are processed by the DVLA who then issue a licence to allow you to drive a vehicle of a certain type. The type of vehicle you are allowed to drive is determined by the type of test you pass.

VOSA agree with the DVLA, if you ask them what driving licence you need to drive a vehicle they will direct you to the DVLA. If you are unsure about driving an unusual vehicle the DVLA will send you to VOSA to clarify what sort of vehicle it is to determine what licence you need. I have spoken to VOSA and they have never told me that I can drive a motorcaravan over 3.5tonne on a B licence or over 7.5tonne on a C1 licence. They have defined a motorcaravan, and it is not a goods vehicle nor is it a car.


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## 88832

Here we go again :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Crackpot.


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon

So lets look at the facts, in a recent post you claimed that I told you to *tell* your brother he was wrong

quote "You told me to tell my brother he is wrong"

I actually said "Your brother is wrong" and your next post confirms it, but just as I said I did not tell you what to do with that information, it was a simple statement of fact, not an instruction

Next you state the obvious

George the DSA are the body who administer the driving test and set the syllabus for driver training. They issue pass certificates which are processed by the DVLA who then issue a licence to allow you to drive a vehicle of a certain type. The type of vehicle you are allowed to drive is determined by the type of test you pass.

All absolutely true and all totally irelevant, they do not decide or make the law only follow the instructions as written in the law.

Next another obvious but meaningless statement

VOSA agree with the DVLA, if you ask them what driving licence you need to drive a vehicle they will direct you to the DVLA.

Of course they will they are the people who are supposed to know, seeing as they are the department that deals with licencing, unfortunately they do not know or if they do know the truth they are not telling anyone. Ask them to quote the law quote the Law which means a motorcaravan is restricted due to weight, they cannot they can only show goods vehicle law.

I am glad you posted the next bit, this is what I have said before and they have confirmed to you now.

They have defined a motorcaravan, and it is not a goods vehicle nor is it a car.

So where does that leave us, either they are all ilegal regardless of licence held or all legal. Or an unprosecutable grey area?


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## 88808

You said my brother is wrong, so my brother double checked and asked the most senior traffic officers in Scotland what they would do in the situation. I stated their response.

But as you say they are only police officers so their opinion is irrelevant. 

I state obvious facts like the connection between the various government agencies. But again they are only government agencies so thier opinion is irrelevant.

Motorcaravans do have a MAM, all vehicles have a MAM. The licence required to drive a vehicle is based on the MAM.


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon

No you stated these connections as though they actually proved your case they do no such thing.

Another twisted statement

"But as you say they are only police officers so their opinion is irrelevant."

I do not say that their opinion is irrelevent, I say there opinion does not mean its law, which is brief and factual. Look closely I say your posting of that information is irrelevant not their opinions.

Next Quote


"The licence required to drive a vehicle is based on the MAM."

What utter rubbish, only certain vehicle types licencing is based on MAM this is stated in law and as you have so kindly confirmed VOSA say a motorhome is not a Good Vehicle.

Please Quote the Maximum Authorised Mass of a minibus, you will be telling me next that I cannot drive a 40 foot coach with 12 seats on my ordinary pre 97 licence next.

Many parts of a vehicles contruction are determined by MAM like number of axles and weight.


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## 88870

Wow 8O I wish I had this much free time on my hands!

Leigh :lol:


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## 89623

Handbags again!!

Sorry couldn't resist it!!!

I'll get me coat!!!


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## 89813

I’m keeping quiet I always end up in trouble :angel5:


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## 88808

> Please Quote the Maximum Authorised Mass of a minibus, you will be telling me next that I cannot drive a 40 foot coach with 12 seats on my ordinary pre 97 licence next.


At the moment there is no restriction on the MAM of minibus which can be driven on the basis of a D1 licence which meets the seating requirements.

But since you asked me to quote the MAM of a minibus my 12 seat minibus has a MAM of 2480KG :lol: :lol:

The EU driving licence law is under review and they are at present talking about restricting the size of a minibus.

I would however question why a minibus needs to be 40ft and weight more than 7500KG?? The current definition of D1 is a small bus.

All driving licences issued by the DVLA since 1997 state MAM.


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## 89813

Can you two have a break between 7.00 and 8.00 I want to watch the bill :-({|=


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## 88808

> What utter rubbish, only certain vehicle types licencing is based on MAM this is stated in law and as you have so kindly confirmed VOSA say a motorhome is not a Good Vehicle.


I agree a motorcaravan is not a goods vehicle. Neither is a mobile crane or a playbus.

But as you are aware the SI does state that mobile cranes require the licence relating to MAM.

It is not written in law that you can drive a motorcaravan over 3500KG on a B licence or over 7500KG on a B or C1 licence.

The exemption list set the precedent that large vehicles are to be considered based on the MAM of the vehicle.

A motorhome has a design MAM which dictates the size of the vehicle.


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## 88808

anskyber said:


> Can you two have a break between 7.00 and 8.00 I want to watch the bill :-({|=


You don't want to watch that, the police know nothing about law. :wink:


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## 89206

As much as I disagree with a lot of what George says there is nothing to disagree with here.

Police officers are not there to interpret the law.

DVLC is also not there to interpret the law.

The only person who can interpret the law is a judge.

DVLC can only quote you what has been written down, they will never tell you if you can do "A" or "B".

If you look at you driving licence you will see that all mention of vehicle and weights show little picture of lorries. Not double decker buses or coaches.

Check what is said about driving coaches and mini-buses.

Does it say that a mini-bus is not allowed to be over 7500kg? Nope.

Do you have to have a HGV licence to drive a coach/bus weighing more than 7500kg? Nope.

Can a HGV licence holder drive a bus carrying fare paying passengers? Nope.

It says it must not have more than 9 (?) seats. So a coach that HAD 45 seats and has had 40 removed is now therefore a mini-bus.

There is a vehicle registration description of a motorhome.

There is no legal definition of a motorhome with regard to a driving licence.

I dont have an HGV but I am allowed to drive all sorts of "Plant" ie road maintenance vehicles, regardless of how much they weigh.


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## 88724

Jonathon

So Basically your previous statement

"The licence required to drive a vehicle is based on the MAM"

Is by your own admission a blatant lie by your second statement 

"At the moment there is no restriction on the MAM of minibus which can be driven on the basis of a D1 licence which meets the seating requirements."


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## 89206

> I would however question why a minibus needs to be 40ft and weight more than 7500KG?? The current definition of D1 is a small bus.


For exactly the reason you are arguing about.

So that you can use it as a motorhome.

DING DONG


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## 88808

GeorgeTelford said:


> Jonathon
> 
> So Basically your previous statement
> 
> "The licence required to drive a vehicle is based on the MAM"
> 
> Is by your own admission a blatant lie by your second statement
> 
> "At the moment there is no restriction on the MAM of minibus which can be driven on the basis of a D1 licence which meets the seating requirements."


At the moment a D1 licence holder can drive a "minibus" or small bus with any MAM. However the law is under review.

C1 and D1 were supposed to be comparable vehicles.

C and D are supposed to be comparable vehicles.


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## 88808

Dishmop said:


> Check what is said about driving coaches and mini-buses.
> 
> Does it say that a mini-bus is not allowed to be over 7500kg? Nope.


The basis of the D1 licence was a 16 seat vehicle, if you do the maths, 15 people = 1 tonne, a D1 vehicle was meant to be the same as a 7500KG vehicle.

The seating capacity was supposed to limit the size of the vehicle. After all why do you need an 18 tonne minibus????



Dishmop said:


> Do you have to have a HGV licence to drive a coach/bus weighing more than 7500kg? Nope.


The D test requires a vehicle of at least 9 metres long, compared with the C test which requires at least 7 metres. The driving test for C and D are the same in most respects.


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## 88724

What does your post before last post mean?

That you are a liar, but maybe not for long? 

The fact that the law may or may not change re small buses does not alter the fact that you deliberately mislead the people of this forum.


Archer, Carr and many others have served time for lying, for your own good give youself up to your brother now, it will look better and may get you a more leniant sentence.


Your last post is waffle and bluster


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## 88808

Dishmop said:


> I would however question why a minibus needs to be 40ft and weight more than 7500KG?? The current definition of D1 is a small bus.
> 
> 
> 
> For exactly the reason you are arguing about.
> 
> So that you can use it as a motorhome.
> 
> DING DONG
Click to expand...

Unfortunately if your vehicle is a motorcaravan, then it is no longer a "minibus" so cannot be driven on the strength of a D1 licence. I hold a full D licence and cannot drive a 12 tonne motorcaravan on the strength of my D licence as it is not a bus.

If you take all of the seats out of a 12 tonne bus it becomes an HGV and requires a C licence.


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## 89206

> vehicle was meant to be the same as a 7500KG vehicle.


I'm sure that it "was meant to be" but its not is it? which is why I can drive a coach on my car licence.

a 16 seater weighing 7500kg? A 12 seater Tranny is only 3500kg


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## 88808

GeorgeTelford said:


> What does your post before last post mean?
> 
> That you are a liar, but maybe not for long?
> 
> The fact that the law may or may not change re small buses does not alter the fact that you deliberately mislead the people of this forum.
> 
> Archer, Carr and many others have served time for lying, for your own good give youself up to your brother now, it will look better and may get you a more leniant sentence.
> 
> Your last post is waffle and bluster


 :lol: :lol:

Very good, we have already established that passenger vehicle driving licences are based on seating capacity. There is a relationship between seating and weight. 15 people = 1 tonne.

As a bus driver I calculate weight by counting people, I can estimate the weight of my vehicle by counting the people, dividing by 15 and adding the Unladen weight stated on the side of the vehicle in front of the nearside rear axle.

As far as the DVLA are concerned there are only two types of bus. Less than 16 seats, or more than 9 seats.

For non passenger vehicles they use MAM.


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## 89206

> If you take all of the seats out of a 12 tonne bus it becomes an HGV and requires a C licence


I didnt say take ALL the seats out, and it would only become a HGV if you were carrying goods.

Where did you get your details from? or is it your own interpretation? because in the eyes of the law you interpretation means absolutely nothing.

DVLC DONT know.

The police DONT know so therefore with all due respect, what makes YOU the defining factor here?

Ah yes, I see now. You are a bus driver.

Having visited the Peterborough Show and the Shepton Mallet show and spoken to many owners of large American motorhomes I have only found one who who took a HGV test to drive his van.

We really ought to start a campaign to get all these illegally driven vehicles off the road. Ask why the police and the courts have NEVER prosecuted anyone for driving such vehicle without the appropriate licence.

Who give a **** anyway? or is it that one has to prove a point because somebody believes that what they say is correct and refuses to move from their line.


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## 88808

Dishmop said:


> vehicle was meant to be the same as a 7500KG vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure that it "was meant to be" but its not is it? which is why I can drive a coach on my car licence.
> 
> a 16 seater weighing 7500kg? A 12 seater Tranny is only 3500kg
Click to expand...

No you can drive a 16 seat coach on your D1 licence. Not on your car licence, there is a difference. :wink:


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## 88724

Jonathon

This place is called Motorhome *facts*

Quote "Unfortunately if your vehicle is a motorcaravan, then it is no longer a "minibus"

Again you are making it up as you go along, buses can have kitchens toilets, lounges and beds (reclining seats) and they are still buses.

You have to request the change to motorcravan if you want to.

There is nothing in the definitions to stop you.

Over to you Jonathon, show where it states in law that buses cannot have facilities.

Please no DVLA leaflets, or hearsay from police academy, please show the law that backs your latest lie.


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## 88808

Dishmop said:


> I didnt say take ALL the seats out, and it would only become a HGV if you were carrying goods.


The base vehicle of a PCV is an HGV if you remove the seats it defaults to being an incomplete large vehicle and requires the relevant licence based on MAM. Whilst the driving licence requirements for PCV's are not based on MAM, every PCV does have a MAM.


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## 88808

GeorgeTelford said:


> Again you are making it up as you go along, buses can have kitchens toilets, lounges and beds (reclining seats) and they are still buses.
> 
> You have to request the change to motorcravan if you want to.


Ask VOSA :lol: :lol:

I'm sure they are in a better position to advise you the difference between a minibus and a motorcaravan :wink:


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## 89206

> No you can drive a 16 seat coach on your D1 licence. Not on your car licence, there is a difference


You're nearly as good as George.

I didnt say drive a 16 seater coach. I said COACH.. no mention of how many seats.

and again with all due respect, you dont know how long I have had a car licence.

Is a D1 licence needed to drive a 7500kg coach with only 4 seats? NOPE.


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## 89206

> The base vehicle of a PCV is an HGV if you remove the seats it defaults to being an incomplete large vehicle


Not if its registered as a "Private Light Goods"

You couldnt register your bus/coach with "facilities" as a motorhome.


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## 88808

> Is a D1 licence needed to drive a 7500kg coach with only 4 seats? NOPE


If it is 7500KG then it can be driven on a C1 licence.


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon

I have already spoke to VOSA re this and know the answer, which is why I know you are lying again, Myself, Chris (dishmop) and many others looked into this way back.

When does a bus become a motorhome? FACT when you tell DVLA that you want the description changed.

There is no legal requirement to change it, leave the requisite number of seats in and you are away.


Again you are making it up as you go along


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## 88808

[quote="Dishmop]

Not if its registered as a "Private Light Goods"

[/quote]

That makes no difference, if the vehicle is over 7500KG then it requires a C licence. The road tax band or MOT does not reflect the driving licence category.


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## 88724

Jonathon repeating the LIE

"That makes no difference, if the vehicle is over 7500KG then it requires a C licence."


The above is STILL not true, again buses and many other vehicles, do you never learn.




"The road tax band or MOT does not reflect the driving licence category."

Neithor does Jonathon

Jonathons brother and Misc other McPlod of any rank

Police acadamy (Scotland)

The DVLA


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## 89206

The problem here Jonathan is that everything you say is only YOUR interpretation. Not DVLC or any other department or the police.

You have no way to establish that what you believe to be correct, is in fact correct. ONLY the courts can interpret the letter of the law. Not you or me or George.

If my van weighed over 7500kg the road fund disc would say what? PLG. Not Motorhome or HGV or bus/coach or "Owner Built it Himself and we dont know what it is because of the weight and what it was before"

Did you know that there was a time when a camper van which weighed over 30cwt didnt have to have an MOT?


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## 88808

The year is 2005, alot has changed.


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## 88724

Chris 

An HGV even if empty of all goods is still an HGV, I get what you are saying re minibuses even tho you are mixing seating capacities up your idea is correct.


Jonathon

Quote another Jon twist

"we have already established that passenger vehicle driving licences are based on seating capacity."

No Jonathon I said that, you claimed (lied) it was all based on MAM how quickly you forget.

Next 

As far as the DVLA are concerned there are only two types of bus. Less than 16 seats, or more than 9 seats. 

So what about buses with more than 16 Seats? are they the same as motorhomes?

And even if they do alter the MAM on bus licencing, I have seen no evidence that any such change is planned and with your recent spate of lies would you expect us to trust you on that?, there are still many other vehicles that are not weight restricted anyway.


----------



## 88808

I have read the same road traffic act as George. I cannot see anywhere in the road traffic act which states you can drive a motorcaravan over 3500KG with a B licence.

I can see where it says you can drive lots of other vehicles ( I link to the DVLA for simplicity as they do reproduce word for word the SI )

http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/special_licensing_arrangements_f.htm

But not motorcaravans.

I agree that there is a loop hole in the D1 category which could still be exploited. However newer drivers are issued with a category B licence which is "a car" upto 3500Kg and 8 passengers.


----------



## 89206

> The year is 2005, alot has changed.


Some things but there will always be dickheads who feel they know better than everybody else, and are completley unable to comprehend that the information they impart, albeit in good faith, may not in fact be fact.
I suppose you all know there is an election soon.


----------



## 88724

Hi Again

nearly correct, the same the statutory instruments do say that the parts they are changing supercede the previous act on certain points, HOWEVER crucially they do not change the wording RE HGV and weights, the weights that Jonathon and the DVLA claim now apply TO ALL vehicles and which it is easy to demonstrate is NOT correct.

As Chris and I have said a 40 Foot bus even with a 25 Tonne MAM with the right mumber of seats can be driven by all of us who passed test before 97 

Crucially there is no law that says a bus cannot have facilities as Jonathon is now trying to claim.


----------



## 89206

I didnt know we were centralising this around the B licence. I wouldnt think there are many people out there who only have a B licence.

That would make half the local parcel delivery drivers illegal.

Mine is B, BE, C1, D1, D1E, f,k,l,n,p

and I have never bothered to look up what they are.

As you know George, before you could register a coach/bus with "facilities" as a motorhome it would also have to have a wardrobe and something more than reclining seats as a bed.


----------



## 88808

> The above is STILL not true, again buses and many other vehicles, do you never learn.


George, A bus requires a special licence, which is different yet the same as the HGV licence. There has been discussion of integrating the HGV and PCV into one licence.

There are exemptions to allow HGV drivers to drive buses and for PCV drivers to drive HGV's. A PCV driver can drive a recovery vehicle designed to tow a PCV.

In the current legislation there are a number of vehicles which can be driven on a B licence. Motorhome is not included on that list.


----------



## 88808

> Crucially there is no law that says a bus cannot have facilities as Jonathon is now trying to claim.


When did I say that? All I said was you need to decide if your bus is a bus or a motorcaravan?


----------



## arvy

Cant believe I missed all this, I was was watching the Bill :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:

arvy,


----------



## 88808

> I wouldnt think there are many people out there who only have a B licence.


There are quite a few....
Everyone who is under 25, and those over 25 who passed their test since 1997.

Which includes people of all ages.


----------



## 88808

arvy said:


> Cant believe I missed all this, I was was watching the Bill :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:
> 
> arvy,


Was it good :lol:


----------



## 89206

> In the current legislation there are a number of vehicles which can be driven on a B licence. Motorhome is not included on that list.


So where is this "LIST" which says what you can drive on a B licence?

As far as I know the only restrictions are as to weight, (3500kg) and "not having more than 8 passenger seats"

Is an articulated towing unit without a 5th wheel coupling still a goods carrying vehicle if you never use it for hire or reward?


----------



## Anonymous

8O We have already had about 4,984.5 posts and 23 threads on this subject. Have you nothing else to discuss? :wink:


----------



## 89206

I don't care anyway, for tomorrow I will be happy driving the company Bentley to take somebody to Heathrow and the more traffic there is the longer it takes and the more I get paid.


----------



## Anonymous

8O Thought I'd cancelled the Bentley for tomorrow. :?: Ah well, gues I had better take that flight to the Bahamas after all. :wink:


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathon

George, A bus requires a special licence, which is different yet the same as the HGV licence. There has been discussion of integrating the HGV and PCV into one licence.

A minbus requires a licence that we all got automatically pre 97 and you keep claiming that all vehicles over 7.5 Tonnes require a special licence which is not true at all andis part of the lie you kee putting forward, repetition does not make the Lie true.

You tried to claim that a minibus that had facilities would become a motorcaravan 

Quote

Crucially there is no law that says a bus cannot have facilities as Jonathon is now trying to claim. 

When did I say that? All I said was you need to decide if your bus is a bus or a motorcaravan?

here is when you said it Jonathon next quote

Unfortunately if your vehicle is a motorcaravan, then it is no longer a "minibus"

Now again you are caught out and pretending you meant something else.


----------



## 88808

Dishmop said:


> In the current legislation there are a number of vehicles which can be driven on a B licence. Motorhome is not included on that list.
> 
> 
> 
> So where is this "LIST" which says what you can drive on a B licence?
> 
> As far as I know the only restrictions are as to weight, (3500kg) and "not having more than 8 passenger seats"
> 
> Is an articulated towing unit without a 5th wheel coupling still a goods carrying vehicle if you never use it for hire or reward?
Click to expand...

The list!

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992864.htm



> (4) A person who holds a relevant full licence authorising the driving of vehicles included in category B, other than vehicles in sub-categories B1 and B1 (invalid carriages), may drive -
> 
> (a) an exempted goods vehicle other than -
> 
> (i) a passenger-carrying vehicle recovery vehicle, or
> 
> (ii) a mobile project vehicle,
> 
> (b) an exempted military vehicle, and
> 
> (c) a passenger-carrying vehicle in respect of which the conditions specified in regulation 50(2) or (3) are satisfied,
> 
> unless by that licence he is authorised to drive only motor vehicles having automatic transmission, in which case he shall be deemed competent to drive only such of the vehicles mentioned in sub-paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) as have automatic transmission.
> 
> (5) A person who -
> 
> (a) holds a relevant full licence authorising the driving of vehicles of a class included in category B, other than vehicles in sub-categories B1 or B1 (invalid carriages),
> 
> (b) has held that licence for an aggregate period of not less than 2 years, and
> 
> (c) is aged 21 or over,
> 
> may drive a mobile project vehicle on behalf of a non-commercial body -
> 
> (i) to or from the place where the equipment it carries is to be, or has been, used, or the display or exhibition is to be, or has been, mounted, or
> 
> (ii) to or from the place where a mechanical defect in the vehicle is to be, or has been, remedied, or
> 
> (iii) in such circumstances that by virtue of paragaph 22 of Schedule 2 to the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994[33] the vehicle is not chargeable with duty in respect of its use on public roads,
> 
> unless by that licence he is authorised to drive only vehicles having automatic transmission, in which case he shall be deemed competent to drive only mobile project vehicles having automatic transmission.
> 
> (6) A person who -
> 
> (a) holds a relevant full licence authorising the driving of vehicles of a class included in category B, other than vehicles in sub-categories B1 or B1 (invalid carriages),
> 
> (b) has held that licence for an aggregate period of not less than 2 years,
> 
> (c) is aged 21 or over,
> 
> (d) if he is aged 70 or over, is not suffering from a relevant disability in respect of which the Secretary of State would be bound to refuse to grant him a Group 2 licence, and
> 
> (e) receives no consideration for so doing, other than out-of pocket expenses,
> 
> may drive, on behalf of a non-commercial body for social purposes but not for hire or reward, a vehicle of a class included in sub-category D1 which has no trailer attached and has a maximum authorised mass -
> 
> (i) not exceeding 3.5 tonnes, excluding any part of that weight which is attributable to specialised equipment intended for the carriage of disabled passengers, and
> 
> (ii) not exceeding 4.25 tonnes otherwise,
> 
> unless such a person is by that licence authorised to drive only vehicles having automatic transmission, in which case he shall be deemed competent to drive only such vehicles in sub-category D1 as conform to the above specification and have automatic transmission.
> 
> (7) A person who holds a relevant full licence authorising the driving of vehicles of a class included in category B, other than vehicles in sub-categories B1 or B1 (invalid carriages), may drive a vehicle of a class included in category B+E where -
> 
> (a) the trailer consists of a vehicle which is damaged or defective and is likely to represent a road safety hazard or obstruction to other road users,
> 
> (b) the vehicle is driven only so far as is reasonably necessary in the circumstances to remove the hazard or obstruction, and
> 
> (c) he receives no consideration for driving the vehicle,
> 
> unless by that licence he is authorised to drive only motor vehicles having automatic transmission, in which case he shall be deemed competent to drive, in the circumstances mentioned above, only vehicles included in category B+E having automatic transmission.


As for "Is an articulated towing unit without a 5th wheel coupling still a goods carrying vehicle if you never use it for hire or reward?"

Wether it is a good vehicle or not is irrelevant. If it has no 5th wheel coupling it is an incomplete large vehicle and requires a driving licence in relation to it's MAM, so if the vehicle is registered with a MAM of less than 3500KG then it could be driven on a B licence. If it is over 3500KG it would require a C1 licence. Should it be over 7500KG then it would require a C licence.


----------



## 89206

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> We have already had about 4,984.5 posts and 23 threads on this subject. Have you nothing else to discuss?


What would you suggest? Any preference?

How many times a year do you clean your van?

Where can I buy a cupboard dorr hinge?

Having read all the above and decided that the subject of driving licences held little interest for you, is it essential that one has to complain?

Reminds me of people who watch 2 hours of film on the TV then write to the TV company and say how vulgar and obscene it was.

You hold the answer in your right hand. Guide it to the appropriate place. Grip it hard and press your fore-finger firmly on the top left side and "click"

Darkness will then fall upon your screen and you can sleep soundly.


----------



## 88808

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Jonathon
> 
> George, A bus requires a special licence, which is different yet the same as the HGV licence. There has been discussion of integrating the HGV and PCV into one licence.
> 
> A minbus requires a licence that we all got automatically pre 97 and you keep claiming that all vehicles over 7.5 Tonnes require a special licence which is not true at all andis part of the lie you kee putting forward, repetition does not make the Lie true.
> 
> You tried to claim that a minibus that had facilities would become a motorcaravan
> 
> Quote
> 
> Crucially there is no law that says a bus cannot have facilities as Jonathon is now trying to claim.
> 
> When did I say that? All I said was you need to decide if your bus is a bus or a motorcaravan?
> 
> here is when you said it Jonathon next quote
> 
> Unfortunately if your vehicle is a motorcaravan, then it is no longer a "minibus"
> 
> Now again you are caught out and pretending you meant something else.


George, if your minibus is a motorcaravan it is not a minibus. It can't be a minibus and a motorcaravan as you have went to great lengths to find a definition of a motorcaravan and it is not the same is it?

I never said that a bus could not have "facilities" I don't actually see the point of this "spin"? Have you been watching too much question time???

A passenger carrying vehicle can be over 7500KG as category D licences as you keep saying do not refer to MAM, however B and C do.

I imply that the category D1 licence should state upto 7500KG, although it doesnt, the EU harmonisation of driving licences will change that and limit the size of a minibus.


----------



## 89813

This reminds me of the good old days before we were all banned from the SBMCC

http://www.1112.net/lastpage.html


----------



## 89206

> So where is this "LIST" which says what you can drive on a B licence?


Ok so you found a list.

It really only still boils down to weight and number of seats.

If a set of rules and regulations doesnt say you cant do something, then it means that you can.

I had some racing regs that said we couldnt use an "inline" fuel filter. We were however allowed to use a fuel filter fitted in the tank. Get it?

If a motorhome weighs less than 3500kg and most probably do, then there is no reason why somebody with a B licence cannot drive it if they are allowed to drive a Transit or similar.


----------



## 88808

The problem is two fold, firstly new drivers are now issued with 3500KG licences. Which restricts what they can drive.

Secondly there are very few motorhomes over 7500KG on the road in real terms. Yes there alot of them, but they are a very small minority. 
The law does not state that I cannot fly a helicopter on a B licence therefor I must be able to do it?

Pre 1997 licences are very messy.

Post 1997 it is very clear and well defined. If you pass a B test you can drive a vehicle upto 3500Kg with 8 passengers seats and a trailer upto 750KG. Plus the vehicles on the "list" subject to conditions.

People who passed their test before 1997 mis use the term "full licence". Full means you have passed the test, as opposed to "provisional". Full doesnt mean "everything".


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathon

"if your minibus is a motorcaravan it is not a minibus" thats you quoted accurately (ie I am not doing a Jonathon)

*Stating the obvious and also meaningless again. it only becomes a motorcaravan if YOU reregister it as such.*

Take one Large coach, remove enough seats that it becomes a small bus, insert all the facilities you like into it, but Crucially do not re-register it as a motorcaravan, there is no requirement under law to register a bus with facilities as a motor caravan

What you have in effect is a 12 tonne or whatever MAM Motorhome that is entirely legal to drive on a minibus licence.

The only reason I repeat the seperate definition for HGV and Motor caravans is that with less than 8 seats the above does not apply.

If harmonisation occurs we will get grandfather rights ie like pre and post 97

Right onto the law remember these are 1999 SI and not the ones DVLA previously based your licencing on with the 97 changes (so these refer back to the 97 Legislation and earlier)

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992864.htm

Check out citation and commencement and also revocation and saving, these refer to earlier legislation and unless the are revoked (which you will see they are not earlier rules still count)

I warn you its boring as hell but if you follow it through you will see that the 7.5 tonne mam still only applies to GV as laid out and not revoked.

Motorhomes and Minibuses are not GV even Jonathon now concedes that depending on which point he is defending

Note my posts do not contridict each other and are consistant and then note how many times Jonathon Lies and Changes his position even to the point of going backwards and forwards, saying the exact opposite and then recanting, but then 2 posts later he repeats the earlier point completely ignoring his own retraction, How many times as he said all vehicles over 7.5 tonnes need a C licence

Its like Reg in what have the Romans ever done for us (only not as funny) concedes point after point then backtracks.


----------



## 88808

When talking about a coach conversion, if you hold a pre 1997 licence it may be possible to use a D1 licence. I have already said that. However you may get into bother with the V5C as you are required to inform the DVLA of any changes to the vehicle.

Going back to the reference to goods vehicles, it makes no difference to the holder of a B licence, if a vehicle is over 3500KG it cannot be driven unless it is covered by the exemptions.


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathon

My previous post contained an error of ommision.

When you remove the seats from a massive coach, you need to re-register it as a small bus. I was that busy making the point about not having to reregister as a motor caravan that I forgot it needed to be correctly identified as a mini-bus.

Only a few posts ago you thought the D1 would not cover a minibus with motorhome facilities.

Quote

George, if your minibus is a motorcaravan it is not a minibus. It can't be a minibus and a motorcaravan as you have went to great lengths to find a definition of a motorcaravan and it is not the same is it? 


Ask VOSA 

I'm sure they are in a better position to advise you the difference between a minibus and a motorcaravan

End Quote

Your position re licencing is not that far away from ours now is it? not long ago all vehicles over 7.5 Tonnes MAM required special licences, now we can have a Huge Monster minibus way over 7.5 tonnes MAM with all the facilities we could ever desire.


----------



## 88808

George I think you are trying to argue a different point?

My original input onto this thread was that my brother had spoken to the senior traffic officers in Scotland and they are of the opinion that the DVLA are correct. 

You can argue all you like that a coach is not a coach it's a minibus or it's a camper van or what ever. If you can get away with driving a coach conversion on the basis of a D1 licence then that's great. But a D1 licence is not a car licence. 

Category D licences reflect seating capacity and at the moment there are no limits on the size of a D1 vehicle.

As far a motorcaravans are concerned there is no direct reference to them in the driving licence legislation so they are dealt with on the basis of MAM. 

You always insist that you can do it because it doesnt say you can't. And then go on to say that you have never heard of anyone being prosecuted? 

That's great, but I know alot of people who are quite happy going for the C licence and ensuring that they are not going to be the first to be prosecuted.


----------



## 88941

Hi all

Most intresting topic, i have not seen before maybe you can answer a few questions i have as i seem to be getting nowhere with the official bodies...

I have recently purchased an old Tristar Aircraft from the RAF.. with the intention of converting to a motorhome or a home on wheels, the main reason for this particular variant of aircraft was the fact that one of its 3 engines is mounted in the tailfin,

thereby enabling me to safely remove the wings to achieve a really streamline shape yet still leaving one engine for propulsion neat eh..

Now the problem i have is, once i have removed all the seats and kitted it out as my luxury motorhome what do i register it as ??? a minbus, a motorcaravan.. a wingless aeroplane ?????

and as strictly speaking due to the lack of wings it is no longer an aeroplane, do i still need a pilots licence.

cant be a goods vehicle coz i dont carry goods in it expect for everyday essentials of course.. so thats The LGV issue out of the way..

its definetly not a bus or coach .. so that clears up the PSV side of things..

its not a car so i wont need a car licence either i guess..

but it is a home on wheels so maybe i need a home on wheels licence :cyclopsani: 

Thats it i need a Motorhome licence !!!!! now where can i get one from....

any ideas from all you experts out there...

take care now and remember if youre gonna take the wings of your plane ... there are no laybys up there....


Keith n Debs......... Just having one of those moments..... :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## 88808

:lol: :lol: :lol: 

I'll ask my brother :wink: 

:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## 88941

Has your brother done a similar conversion then ??????

:roll:


----------



## RobMD

The DVLA are not really concerned with the letter of the law that determines what is or is not a goods vehicle etc.

They issue a licence to drive various vehicles based on the criteria they detemine, and the important phrase in the section on Motorhomes is:-

"which is relevant in determining the driving entitlement you need"

They are not saying whether a Motorhome is or is not any particular class of vehicle, they are saying what category of licence is required in order to drive a Motorhome, without which you are driving illegally.

Don't lose track of the fact that they are the Driver and Vehicle Licencing Agency

Because prosecutions aren't common for an offece doesn't mean an offence hasn't been committed (wait until they want more revenue!!)


----------



## 88941

hi

so what catergory of licence is required to drive a motorhome because i do not have motorhome as a category on my licence

keith


----------



## Road_Runner_644

Sorry to jump in, but i have asked an expert on the regional thing.

I might be wrong here, but i don't think there are any Police in Scotland.

I asked Mrs Roadrunner, who comes from the better part of Whitecrook, Clydebank, and she has said that all such matters are dealt with by the Polis, which seems to be a completely different organization.

I'm no expert, but Mrs Roadrunner was born and bred up there, so she should know.

RR


----------



## 88808

keith-n-debs said:


> hi
> 
> so what catergory of licence is required to drive a motorhome because i do not have motorhome as a category on my licence
> 
> keith


According to the DVLA, DSA, VOSA and the police....

You need a B licence for any vehicle upto 3500KG MAM

Over 3500KG MAM you need a C licence, between 3500KG and 7500KG MAM you can use a sub category C1 licence.

Any vehicle other than a PCV is defined for driving licence purposes using MAM Maximum Authorised Mass. A PCV is a vehicle with 9 or more passenger seats.


----------



## 88808

Road_Runner_644 said:


> Sorry to jump in, but i have asked an expert on the regional thing.
> 
> I might be wrong here, but i don't think there are any Police in Scotland.
> 
> I asked Mrs Roadrunner, who comes from the better part of Whitecrook, Clydebank, and she has said that all such matters are dealt with by the Polis, which seems to be a completely different organization.
> 
> I'm no expert, but Mrs Roadrunner was born and bred up there, so she should know.
> 
> RR


 :lol: :lol:

Yes in the West of Scotland they have Polis :wink: Over here in the East we have Police, cos we talk proper like :lol: :lol: We also have other words to describe them, but I run the risk of being arrested when my bro returns at the weekend so I shall not utter them 8)


----------



## Road_Runner_644

Ok RDB

I understand now, I was getting worried 'cos she had spotted some Polis down here in Leicester but i have tried to assure her that Polis are mainly in the industrial heartland of her homelnad, and she must have mistaken them for coppers. 

RR :lol:


----------



## 88808

:lol: :lol: 

If you get the old bill, you are in real bother then 8O 

You have alot of regional forces down your way though?

The bizzies
The fuzz
The bobbies
The old bill of course

Mr Plod

I'm not allowed to offer my Bro a bacon sandwich anymore :lol: :lol:


----------



## Road_Runner_644

Ha Ha 

Yep whatever we call them, I hope its taken as a term of endearment really, i don't like the bad ones, and think the force can live with the funny ones.

I just hear the term in my ear "Will Ye Gonna not drive like those ones in the sports cars, you'll be having the Polis on your case"

RR


----------



## 88808

I can actually hear the accent :wink: That's pure dead brilliant, so it is. 8O


----------



## peedee

keith-n-debs said:


> Hi all
> 
> I have recently purchased an old Tristar Aircraft from the RAF.. with the intention of converting to a motorhome or a home on wheels, the main reason for this particular variant of aircraft was the fact that one of its 3 engines is mounted in the tailfin,
> 
> thereby enabling me to safely remove the wings to achieve a really streamline shape yet still leaving one engine for propulsion neat eh..


I think someone did this many years ago and called it an "Airstream" 

peedee


----------



## 88724

Hi

Quote a further Jonthon lie

"According to the DVLA, DSA, VOSA and the police.... "

Anyone reading this thread or actually bothering to look into it will know that the above isnt true, certainly if you read Jonathons posts you will see occasionally he gives lie to his own words.

RR

Because prosecutions aren't common for an offence doesn't mean an offence hasn't been committed 

Not common infers there have been some, the fact is that in 35+years they attempted one and gave up.


----------



## 88808

George it is beyond me that you can declare that my statement is un true.

The DVLA have told you on many occasions what licence is required.

I work closely with the DSA as I teach car drivers, they publish books which include the licence requirements.

VOSA support the DVLA.

I have asked the police via my brother and stated the response from senior traffic officers.

All of these statements are *facts*.

You seem to have jumped on the tory band wagon, jump up and down and say "lies lies lies". :lol: :lol:

RobMD wrote:


> The DVLA are not really concerned with the letter of the law that determines what is or is not a goods vehicle etc.
> 
> They issue a licence to drive various vehicles based on the criteria they detemine, and the important phrase in the section on Motorhomes is:-
> 
> "which is relevant in determining the driving entitlement you need"
> 
> They are not saying whether a Motorhome is or is not any particular class of vehicle, they are saying what category of licence is required in order to drive a Motorhome, without which you are driving illegally.
> 
> Don't lose track of the fact that they are the Driver and Vehicle Licencing Agency
> 
> Because prosecutions aren't common for an offece doesn't mean an offence hasn't been committed (wait until they want more revenue!!)


All of these official bodies *tell* you what licence is required, yet it's easier to declare they don't know what they are talking about and shout "lies lies lies".


----------



## 89623

I have a copy of this months American RV Magazine, does anyone want me to type the article up?

Or am i just and more fuel to this?

Or shall i get my coat again?

Alex


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathon

VOSA support the DVLA. No they do not even by your own admission.

I have asked the police via my brother and stated the response from senior traffic officers. 

Yes but its only opinion, not the law as written

You have Shamelessly LIED over and over in this thread.


All of these official bodies tell you what licence is required, yet it's easier to declare they don't know what they are talking about and shout "lies lies lies".

Only one, maybe 2 (DSA?) advise on licenceing and the DVLA say its only their opinion (not the law) at the bottom of the pages. If they were that confident why not say so. All the others do not advise on licensing as you know so again you are lying.


----------



## 88808

Are you now saying that I am telling a lie about what my brother told me?

It is a *fact* that I asked my brother, he confirmed my view on the subject.

It is a *fact* that I asked my brother to do some research and ask senior traffic officers.

It is a *fact* that he did in fact ask the questions and got a response.

It is a *fact* that I presented the answer on this thread as given.

Or is it that the police are telling lies?

It is a *fact* that I have phoned VOSA on numerous occasions and they have told me that the DVLA are responsible for driving licences.

It is a *fact* that I work closely with the DSA and teach people to drive cars in order to obtain a B licence.

It is a *fact* that the DVLA state you require the appropriate licence according to MAM.


----------



## 88724

Hi Jonathon

Quote

All of these official bodies tell you what licence is required.

This is what you said and it is a lie, ring any one except DVLA and they will tell you to consult the DVLA.

You big bold statements making out that they all agree are NOT true and in fact because you know they are not true means you are LYING again.

BTW Note that I do not say these depts lie only that you have lied and the evidence is here throughout this thread.


----------



## 88808

I don't need to lie, I have all of these government agencies supporting my view on the subject. I don't need to twist the wording of the legislation to support my view.


----------



## 88724

OK Jonathon

Quote

I don't need to lie, I have all of these government agencies supporting my view on the subject. I don't need to twist the wording of the legislation to support my view.

End Quote

Lets break that down,

I don't need to lie, 

This is true you dont need to lie, however the truth is that you have lied (made statements Knowing they were not true) And your following statement again is not true.

I have all of these government agencies supporting my view on the subject.

The Subject is licencing and the only agency that supports your veiw for definate is the DVLA 

you claim police support Via hearsay from your brother is he High ranking or Official spokesman ? no an ordinary plod. Does he claim to represent the Police ?

Vosa when asked say a motorhome is not a HGV and cannot be one this is exactly the opposite of what the DVLA say, They (DVLA) claim it is an HGV and requires an HGV licence, however when questioned cannot quote the law that backs this UP.


However you are trying to infer that I twist the legislation, I have not, I have asked people to read it for themselves and see that the earlier parts re 7.5 tonnes refering to HGV have not been revoked, follow this on with the fact THAT VOSA and Construction and use both say a Motorhome is not an HGV 

The later legislation does only refer to MAM.

I totally agree that they do not specifically say its OK to drive an over 7.5 Tonne motorhome on a C & B licence of any flavour.

But when you realise it cannot be covered by an HGV licence (by your own reasoning if its not listed its not OK to drive and as VOSA have told you its not an HGV) and as you say its not listed as an exemption and its certainly not listed on B & C any variant.

Where does that leave us According to your method all Motorhomes over 7.5 Tonnes are being driven without a licence. Follow your reasoning right the way through and this is the position you end up in.


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## 89813

Surely the only person to answer this is the CPS ain10:


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## 88724

Hi Paul

If thats the case then they have already backed out of the only attempted prosecution. I did have a chat and they were very uncomfortable discussing it, especially when asked about why they dropped it, they still have all the evidence including a signed statement admitting to driving the vehicle in the third lane of the Motorway (an HGV there !!) plod statements too and I believe camera evidence. None of its missing.

The CPS refer you to DVLA re licencing !!

Asked what Law they were using to attempt the prosecution they clammed up and suddenly they dont discuss individual cases.


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## 88808

> Vosa when asked say a motorhome is not a HGV and cannot be one this is exactly the opposite of what the DVLA say, They (DVLA) claim it is an HGV and requires an HGV licence, however when questioned cannot quote the law that backs this UP.


The DVLA never once said that a motorhome was an HGV, they simply say that if it is over 3500KG then it cannot be driven on a B licence. They require an appropriate licence based on MAM. Which means you require a C or subcategory C1 licence.

Again it is alright for you to say that your MR plod says one thing, but again I cannot seek advice from serving police officers and relay their reponse. I asked a question and the police gave a response, it may not be the response that you want to hear. I am not about to criticise the opinion of Scotlands most senior traffic officers. Highly qualified and experienced officers who I imagine know a little bit about road traffic law? Or are you implying that the police are thick now?


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## Anonymous

Oh George George George George George!!!

Why do you have to repeatedly wind people up? Kids - let it drop, there's no point getting all ratty about this.

Obviously we all have different opinions and legislation to draw upon.

Chill, ok?


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## 89813

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Paul
> 
> If thats the case then they have already backed out of the only attempted prosecution.


What case was that George?


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## Anonymous

:? Why does this topic keep going round and round?

George and Red_dragon_bus Why don't you have your own website? Then you can continue to rant and rave about the same thing forever and a day. Let's just ALL AGREE that the law is an ASS and there will ALWAYS be different interpretations by the different agencies and their reperesentatives. :wink:


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon

The DVLA have told me that you need an HGV licence to drive one, and thats the reason I rang C&U because the DVLA said that a Motorhome over 7.5 Tonnes was an HGV and needed a C, the fact is they have since started refering to weights only however the legislation doesnt back that up.

Jst spoke to the CPS again in the last couple of years they have switched from a Compass System to a Scope system which basically means thay can no longer search for the info as easily all dead files are paper only now.

With regards to police quotes yes I quoted the local traffic division which disagreed with the statements by your plod, the difference is that I do not claim it as evidence of being proved right, to me its only another small pce. 

I have now recieved written confirmation from my local traffic division and they claim after consulting DVLA that an C licence is required, no surprise there then. Strangely when they were looking in Maxwell and Sweets they could not find anything that would cover it and said that looking at it they agreed so if that would have been a call in they would have told the officer to let them go on there way.

But I think we said before we are not going to agree on this, until one case is settled in court, rather than the CPS backing out we will not get a definative answer (although the very act of the CPS pulling the case shows they knew they were going to lose)


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## 88724

Hi Paul

Just for you here is a copy of the post I made way way back. it tells of the case

I have been researching this for over a year now and thought American motor home drivers were just plain lucky to have got away with driving 38ft vehicles that weigh far in excess of 7.5 tonnes on ordinary licences (i.e. not LGV = Large Goods Vehicle or HGV Heavy goods Vehicle)

There are no legal precedents as no case as been "tried", however I have found one case that went to court three times, twice adjourned by the CPS and then on the third occasion they withdrew all charges and the court awarded paid all costs for the defendant!

The CPS cited lack of evidence however this does not ring true as they had Video Camera Evidence, Police on the ground witnesses, and the driver did not deny driving the vehicle, the vehicle was travelling in the Outside lane of the M6 a road position that is totally illegal for LGV and HGV vehicles.

*Two Leading London firms of solicitors and a top Barrister were hired to act on behalf of the Driver Mr Mark Bishop by Travelworld, the main thrust of their defence was that the driver was driving a motor caravan and not a goods vehicle so therefore an LGV or HGV licence was not required.*

It seems highly likely that the case was dropped because there are no separate rules for motor caravan licensing and that because an LGV and HGV is defined legally as a Goods carrying vehicle (over certain set weights) which obviously a motor caravan is not, that they have no way of bringing charges!! The really strange bit is that if that's the case no-one as got a licence to drive a motor caravan or every-ones full licence covers them for any weight of vehicle that is not a goods vehicle.

I have tried the relevant Transport departments and no-one can give any information as to what class a motor caravan comes under, all initially point to LGV and HGV and when I point out the Definition of HGV/LGV they have no idea of how to actually classify it! I have a string of "I'll get back to you" and they never have!

Have sent a fax today asking them to point out the relevant legislation to back their claim that 7.5 tonnes is the legal max for motor homes without an LGV or HGV licence.


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## 89206

> My original input onto this thread was that my brother had spoken to the senior traffic officers in Scotland and they are of the opinion that the DVLA are correct.


Again I state that the DVLC do not have a remit to interpret the law. They can only quote what the regulations say as per written word, and the police can only give an "opinion" which means nothing.

Somebody stated that a HGV reregistered as a PLG is still a HGV. In that case, why does it not have to have a Plating Cerificate? All goods vehicles with over 3500kg total weight have to be plated, and you have to have an Operators licence as well. Therefore it is of my "opinion" that they are not HGV's.

I think as far as the Tristar is concerned you might have to book it in for a Single Vehicle Approval test as per Kit-Car, but if you are going to use it as a commercial vehicle, then the SVA is not needed. Just make sure that the windscreen washer bottle is full. Very easy to forget.

I feel that if you have only a B licence then you can only drive up to 3500kg no matter what it is, apart from any exceptions which may be listed, but none of those exceptions would be motorhome.

A large coach with all seats removed except for 9, re-registered as a mini-bus and THEN fitted with a bed/s, a wardrobe, cooking facilities and a water supply is still a mini-bus' and the road fund licence is the same as a car over 1100cc..

A 10 tonne truck fitted with the above facilities and re-registered as a Motorhome and given a classification on the log-book as PLG cannot then be a HGV, and again has the same road tax as a car over 1100cc.


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## 88808

Dishmop said:


> Somebody stated that a HGV reregistered as a PLG is still a HGV. In that case, why does it not have to have a Plating Cerificate? All goods vehicles with over 3500kg total weight have to be plated, and you have to have an Operators licence as well. Therefore it is of my "opinion" that they are not HGV's.


It is legal to drive a HGV without an operating disk or tachograph. It is possible to change the MAM of an HGV to any value above the unladen weight.

Companies derate 14 tonne lorries to 7.5 tonne so that they can employ C1 drivers. It depends on what they are transporting. They could fill a 14 tonne lorry with feathers and remain below the 7.5 tonne MAM limit.

I could buy a 14 tonne lorry and register it as a private vehicle, enjoy a lower road tax band, but I still need a C licence to drive it unless I have it derated to less than 7.5 tonne, then it could be driven by a C1 holder. If I was to convert it into a vehicle on the "list" then it could potentially be driven by a B holder. I would not need an operators licence or tachograph provided the vehicle was not being used for hire and reward.


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## 89206

> If I was to convert it into a vehicle on the "list" then it could potentially be driven by a B holder


Even if its max weight exceeded 3500kg ?

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Eastern_Self_Build/


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## 88808

Dishmop said:


> If I was to convert it into a vehicle on the "list" then it could potentially be driven by a B holder
> 
> 
> 
> Even if its max weight exceeded 3500kg ?
Click to expand...

Yes, provided it is on the list. But as stated before motorcaravans are not on the list.


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## eurajohn

WHERE HAVE ALL THE MODERATORS GONE????????????????????

Mad perhaps?

John


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## 88808

eurajohn said:


> WHERE HAVE ALL THE MODERATORS GONE????????????????????
> 
> Mad perhaps?
> 
> John


I heard they were putting the kettle on ready for the next instalment, so they can sit back with cup of tea and enjoy the fun :lol: :lol:


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## 88724

Hi John 

You do not have to read this thread, I cannot understand people entering a thread just to cry about not liking it.

If it bores you do not read it. Do not post just to bleat

George


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## 89813

Even I am behaving myself now, the new happy pill seem to be working


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## 89206

see below, made a boob


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## 89206

George, perhaps you should ask them about gas cylinder lockers and the legal requirement thereof.

and Corgi Installers.


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## eurajohn

George has an opinion and he's not afraid to use it !!!

John.


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## 88742

Don't really want to get involved in this, but it just so happens I received my logbook for the new van this morning and it's classed as a 'Motorhome HGV' !!!!!


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## peejay

eurajohn quote;



> WHERE HAVE ALL THE MODERATORS GONE????????????????????


we're here John, and watching all posts as usual, why do you ask?

pj


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## 88724

Hi Ian

The DVLA "oficially" only accept Motor caravan as a classification, so thats a strange class to be in, I would get that sorted asap as it could cause you problems.

According to VOSA as an HGV that is not on the Exempted list (and Motorhomes are Not exempted according to VOSA) you would require Plating, Tachograph, be barred from the second overtaking lane, you will need a speed limiter too, on new vehicles.


Just out of interest what is the MAM and what classes of licence do you hold?


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## 88742

George, 

MGW is 3800kgs, off the top of my head I can't remember the MAM - guessing it's about 5500kgs - not sure.

HGV1/PSV/Mbike (I know their classed differently now but that's how I remember them)


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## 89206

Many years ago I imported from Belgium a Mercedes ambulance. It was one of the stretched ones with a steel high roof. Looked like a white hearse really.

It was nearly 19ft long and weighed in at somewhere near to 3 tons.

I registered and taxed it and used it etc. When the tax came up for renewal it said on the reminder form that I needed a plating certificate.
I drove it to the local DVLC office and asked the lady behind the counter why. She replied that it was because of the weight. I tried to tell her that it was registered as a private vehicle and was in fact only a large estate car. "Sorry, its still because of the weight"

Being me, I asked with cool calm firm authority, " I want to see the manager"

After a dirty look or two, she went and spoke to somebody who came and asked what the problem was. Explained it to him and he said, "Its because of the weight"

I said "But I have a 3 ton motorhome which doesn't need plating"

"Thats because its got a bed"

I asked him if he would inspect the vehicle, to which he said I would have to make an appointment. " But you can see it if you look out of the window" He duly did look out of the window and promptly said

"Thats an estate car" and re-classified the vehicle.


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## 89206

I think you must mean "unladen weight" not MGW


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## 88742

I'm guessing now because I'm at work but I think the unladen weight is about 3100kgs.

.......................anyhow I'll have to catch up with this next week 'cos I'm off now for the weekend.


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## 89206

Not that it makes any difference, because the only thing that does matter is the MAM and that is just a new name for the MGW.

To find out the unladen weight of a H/M you would have to remove everything that was not screwed down, empty the tanks and fridge, etc etc.

If you have a M/H with a demountable body, the body is classed as part of the load, but but because of todays method of vehicle licencing thats also irrelevant.


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## 88742

Right I'm at home now - briefly.

Apologies George, the exact wording is:-

Body Type: Motor Caravan
Taxation Class: Private HGV
Revenue Weight: 3800 KG Gross


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## 88724

Hi Ian

No apologies needed, does that mean the total all up weight must stay blow 3.8 tonnes? Check the MAM out that will be on the weight plate (usually somewhere by the drivers seat)


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## 88724

Hi again

hmmmmm According to DVLA Revenue weights are for Goods Vehicles and yet a Private Heavy Good Vehicle WHICH is not according to the DVLA a goods vehicle at all, as a revenue weight. Yes it all makes perfect sense.

Goods Vehicles are taxed according to their "Revenue Weight". This is the confirmed maximum weight (ie gross weight or gross train weight) for vehicles subject to plating and testing. 

For non-testable vehicles this will be the maximum weight at which a vehicle can lawfully operate under construction and use limits (ie design weight)


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## 88808

The V5C now no longer shows the MAM for non commercial vehicles. An escort car does not show revenue weight but an escort van does.

Of course both vehicles are the same chassis and can carry the same weight.


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## 89206

> Of course both vehicles are the same chassis and can carry the same weight.


Not strictly accurate.

You couldnt load as much into a car as you could a van.

The maximum weight that they are allowed to be might be the same, but that doesnt mean that if you can stuff 500kg into the back of your van that you can stuff the same load into the back of your car


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon

Quote

The V5C now no longer shows the MAM for non commercial vehicles. An escort car does not show revenue weight but an escort van does. 

So now a motorhome is a commercial vehicle? we are doing the DVLA 2 step here one step forwards two steps back. Initially when I enquired about motorhome licence requirements the DVLA were insistant that a large Motorhome was a goods vehicle and requiresd HGV licence, then Construction and Use told Them No it is not A Goods or commercial vehicle. 

Chris 

I think Jonathon meant an escort estate car and the Van version which is the same vehicle with the rear seats removed and no side windows, even so you will be correct on the loading because the estate car as some of its capacity taken with the rear seats.


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## 89206

> of its capacity taken with the rear seats.


and dont forget the weight of all that glass!!!!


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## Anonymous

8O If I had an RV that weighed in at 7,800 KG and I filled it with all the gas that is being posted on this thread. Would it by any stretch of the imagination lower the weight less that 7,500KG? It would probably only weigh 100KG and could be driven on a moped licence. 8O


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## 88724

Hi John

The exhaled gases are mainly carbon dioxide which is not lighter then air and as such will not effect the Percieved mass of your vehicle. If you would like to learn more about CO2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide

Jonathon may be able to clarify further but a moped is restricted by Kw nowadays and in the past required a pedal movement system.

Not absolutely sure but Ithink mopeds may be restricted to being 2 wheeled too.


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## 88724

If you are refering to the Hot air then a study showed that in Astma patients the temperature of the exhaled air is aproximately 5 degrees above ambient.


A brief run down of Archimedes principle shows that this would be insufficient to have any percievable effect of a large motorhome.

This buoyant force is equal to the weight of the air displaced by the balloon. If the weight of the air displaced by the hot air balloon is greater than the total weight of the balloon and its cargo, the balloon will rise. The greater the temperature difference between the inside air and the surrounding air, the greater the difference in their densities, which produces more lift. Hot air balloons work best on cool, still days.


So even if we were all asthmatic and had a really heated debate sorry not enough force would be generated.


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## Anonymous

:? Hi George. I was referring to the GAS from the other END.


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## 89206

From your signature. John.



> Been there, done that, *but you never stop learning*.


Although this thread may not interest some readers, it is however very relevant to others, and by your own admission, possibly you also have learned something from it, although perhaps not understood it.


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## Anonymous

Hi Dishmop. The point I am making. Is that the same thing has been posted on several threads and it just goes on and on with no ending. The same arguments back and forth. Why can't people agree to disagree and leave it at that. 8O I cannot say I have learned anything that was not available elsewhere. I understand that people DO require an answer to the questions they put. But there should also be a resolvement to the arguments. 8)

Surely Forums are for people of like minds to ask and give answers, to help and advise. NOT a SOAPBOX for some to postulate . :wink:


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## 89206

> The same arguments back and forth. Why can't people agree to disagree and leave it at that.


Ah, 
now without having a personal dig at George, its because George does not give in. He knows this is true and part of his make-up.

If he is correct then that is all there is to it.

If he is wrong, but doesn't realise it then he, like a lot of other people will still not budge because he truly believes that he is right. Now theres nothing wrong with that. We couldn't have top MP's changing their mind 10 days after making a statement which they said was true could we.

However, George states his case so positively that even if he is talking a load of cr** and knows it, then in the end the opposition may begin to wonder if George is indeed correct and they are wring.

I heard somebody once say that nothing would upset Jeffrey Archer than NOT to talk about him.

If somebody post something on such a forum as this in response to a question, and that reply is incorrect then somebody (anybody) should feel it within their duty to correct the incorrect. Remember that on here you are talking about such things as LPG installations which is a serious matter.

I used to say "If you need to ask then you den't know and shouldn't be doing it" This in itself is a bit unfair unless you happen to know that the person asking the question is one of those who should never be let loose with a screwdriver. Destroy It Youself.

I have just installed a LPG conversion on my Mercedes car. I would supply details of how it is done, but I would not tell anybody else to go ahead and do it unless I knew their capabilities.


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## Anonymous

Hi Dishmop. 

Quote: I have just installed a LPG conversion on my Mercedes car. I would supply details of how it is done, but I would not tell anybody else to go ahead and do it unless I knew their capabilities.

I always assume that others have the same or more intelligence than myself. I do not pursue an argument which is futile and incorrect or wrongly qouted/used. As I have mentioned, either in this or another thread. If the establishment cannot agree, why should everyone else disagree and assume that their interpretation is correct? 8O


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## 89206

> I always assume that others have the same or more intelligence than myself.


Mmmmmm! Very noble of you. However, intelligence doesn't equate with common sense, or DIY capabilities.

A person who may be a whizz on a PC may not have the faintest idea what is inside the machine.

If you want to know where to find some info on the internet Ask George. 
I always did say he was good at that.
If you want to know anything about a motorhome, Ask George, but I amongst some other people have doubts as to if George has ever actually built a van himself.

I have pics on my forum of my van in the process of being built, but that doesnt prove that it was me that did it.


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## 88724

Hi Chris

I have in the past been the first to post evidence that what I have been saying is wrong, If I was to find positive evidence that I was wrong on This I would post it immediately and you know that to be true.

Look over at the SBMCC site when I find I am wrong I am first to admit it, what happened when Kalmar and Dave G found they were wrong re Split charging it all went very very quiet, they may have Honour's Degree's, but they didnt have the honour to admit they were wrong.

This particular debate is a difficult one because DVLA are stating as fact things which the law doesnt back up. If you follow their arguments tp conclusion then no Large RV is licenced this situation would be ridiculous given the number that are and have been on the roads. I cant prove my case outright although the CPS giving up backs it up, so does the number of people driving these that I and Chris have found many of these have had to produce and no-one as ever been done for it.

Its Jonathons position that in 35+ years its pure luck that NOT ONE person as been prosecuted, its my position that the law does not support a prosecution.

You say "If the establishment cannot agree" they have not said anything on this except the BS interpretation by DVLA And yes I do say its BS because they cannot show where the law regarding HGV flows forward to there new MAM regs, the flow chart works for HGV but doesnt for Non GV.


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## Anonymous

I agree not everyone can be a brilliant artist or top class designer, or capable of building a rocket to the moon, or being able to write an operating system better than Microsoft (Oh! I forgot it has been), or that everyone could beat Lynford Christy in a sprint etc, etc. But at the same time, you would be absolutley Gob-smacked at what some people can do with a pair of pliers, a screwdriver, a ball of string and some Silicone sealer. But at the same time, I would put a practical person of any skill against a book learned/educated person any day. Just my opinion. :wink:


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## 89206

Now don't start George.

I didn't say you were wrong concerning this licence subject. I was generalizing.

In the past I have tended to agree with you re licences, as in fact I do this time.

We have all said how we interpret the written word on this matter and it must be agreed that our opinions are irrelevant.

A similar situation is the "A" frame for towing. The law says we shouldn't be using them, and gives the various reason why, but until somebody is successfully prosecuted for using one they remain legal to use. Stupid, yes I know.

You may find it hard to believes that there is no statute as layed down by an act of Parliament that says murder is an offence under the law.!!!!!!


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## 88724

Hi Chris

Quote

However, George states his case so positively that even if he is talking a load of cr** and knows it, then in the end the opposition may begin to wonder if George is indeed correct and they are wring. 

it was this I responded too


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## 89206

Well, you wouldnt admit to it being true would you?


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## 88724

LOL Chris

There is no possible answer to that is there ? 

But the evidence is there, that I post any evidence that contradicts my position and I have posted apologies in the past. Unlike many others who just go Quiet for a while or come back under a new name.


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## 89206

> Unlike many others who just go Quiet for a while or come back under a new name.


Well that cant be me 'cause I've never had reason to go quiet because I've been wrong about something. I just get fed up or have an overload of work.

At my creeping old age it takes me a week to get over a 1500 + miles 2 day drive across the channel.


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## Anonymous

That must have been one Hell of a drive. 1500+ miles across the channel. Did you get lost in the canyons along the way?


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## 89206

> That must have been one Hell of a drive. 1500+ miles across the channel


As soon as I posted that, I just knew that somebody would ask such a question. It was Copenhagen.

Last time I came back on the ferry overnight, I woke up early and thought it was rather quiet and then noticed that the cabin lights didn't work.

Whilst having breakfast I overheard a casual conversation between staff that the ferry had lost all power, no generators, nothing, and they had to get 2 tugs out. Nice of them to tell that we were drifting helplessly in the north sea. Perhaps thats why I did all those miles.


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## Anonymous

I can beat that Dishmop. On the wifes 50th Birthday we should have gone to Germany from Spain then on to Holland. We had loaded our little camper with everything from our caravan which we had sold ready to go full-timing. Cut a long story short - the gearbox broke. 3 1/2 weeks later we had a new gearbox. Morning of Sandy's 50th Birthday we left our new Catalan friends. Went through Spain. Over the mountains and through Andorra into France. Got back to England (Luton) around 11pm. She got her birthday to remember. 4 countries in one day. 8O 8)


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## 89813

Doctor who was good tonight :smilebox:


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## 88724

Hi Chris

Not you, although you do have more than enough aliases


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## 89813

Do you mean me ccasion9:


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## 88724

Hi Paul 


Quote

Do you mean me 

endquote

Is the you in that quote me? if so I didnt mean you

If the you you refer too isnt me, then sorry I dont know, I can only say that if the you is me I didnt mean you.

could any other possible you's please let him know whethor you are refering to him asap


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## 88808

> Its Jonathons position that in 35+ years its pure luck that NOT ONE person as been prosecuted, its my position that the law does not support a prosecution.


George, driving licences have changed recently, you can't declare that my position is based on 35+ years.

My bus instructor passed his one and only driving test in a double decker bus, he had never driven a car in his life. When he learned to drive you could sit your car test in a bus.

Things have changed.

And for the record, I've been sailing all day :wink:


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## 88724

Hi Jonathon

According to the DVLA its always been ilegal to drive a Large over 7.5 Tonne motorhome without an HGV licence.

At least as far back as when they bought in the HGV licences.

So its been ilegal for 35+ years and yet not one prosecution! and anyone who cares to ask the drivers of these huge motorhomes will find that very few have a licence for HGV or the modern MAM letter that is supposed to have superceded HGV

Looks like Jonathon only supports the DVLA back to 1 Jan 1997, do you agree that pre 97 it was legal to drive (big motorhomes) on basic car test pass? but if thats the case Jon why do we not get Grandfather rights like the up to 7.5 Tonnes bit we pre 97'ers still have ?

George

Hope you had a good day on the water.


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## 88808

From 1997 the entitlements issued on passing a car test changed. In recent history prior to 1997 a "car" driver could drive a vehicle upto 7500KG on the basis of the C1 licence, there was/is a loop hole with regard to the D1 licence so it would be possible to drive larger vehicles. 

I think many people drove on the basis of the D1 category?

Going further back, prior to HGV licences anyone could drive a lorry without a further test. And going even further back still, there were no driving tests or licences.


The number of motorhomes over 7500KG until recently has been very low, there are not that many american RV's or UK coach conversions which are actually over 7500KG.

My own vehicle is definitely over 7500KG. On the basis that I passed my test in 1997 shortly after the change over, I was limited to 3500KG and despite holding D and D1 I was advised by the DVLA that my conversion required a C licence. 

I have always been under the impression that the 7500KG licence meant precisely that. Hence horse lorries being derated so that they could be driven on a C1 (so pre 1997 licence holders did not have to sit a further test). 


And yes, I had a brilliant day sailing


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## 89206

> Not you, although you do have more than enough aliases


I've forgotten what they are tho.


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## 89813

Dishmop said:


> Not you, although you do have more than enough aliases
> 
> 
> 
> I've forgotten what they are tho.
Click to expand...

I think when the SBMCC removed them from their forum they lost about six hundred members


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