# Any legal minds out there? Property matters.



## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

We, as some may know, are self building a bungalow on land at the rear of our house.

During the digging of the footings we came across a 4 inch water main crossing the middle of the site. All work has stopped to sort it out.

Anglian Water were contacted about the matter. We were advised that they could divert the water main around the new building. The cost for this service would be £15,419.94. They would dig all the trenches, supply and lay the pipes make all the connections etc.
After picking ourselves up we asked if we could employ our own contractors to undertake the bulk of the work with AW joining the pipes when necessary. The reply has just come back.
I paraphrase - Yes we can employ our own contractors to dig the trenches and lay all the pipes. AW must, however, connect the old pipe to the new pipe and test the pressure etc. The cost for this connection service would be £14,148.98"

Anyone know if they can get away with this?

Someone has suggested that the pipe belonging to AW is on our land and that we should check if they have the legal right to be there. There is nothing on our deeds, as far as we know, about any wayleave or easement. We did have one for an electricity pylon but nothing for water mains.

Am in shock


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Sometimes it just don't pay to say anything. 
We had a gas main running under our house to a gas meter inside. We wanted the gas meter put outside which would have cost. So we called the gas board and said we smell gas. They came and renewed the pipe to an outside meter free.!

Maybe you can just bridge it or cause it to leak?

Ray.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

We did think of that, Ray, but we were told that they charge you for breaking the pipe and then just come and repair it


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

What would be the potential consequences of simply burying it deep in solid concrete? That way it is unlikely to break, but if it does AW would be aware of a leak but unable to locate it, so may bridge along acceptable route.

I do not know, it is not a problem I have ever faced, the only run in I had with the electricity company who had a way leave for a wire stay for a pole outside our garden. We wanted to build a patio, dug it out and asked them to move it.

They said they MIGHT be able to do it in a few months...... we declined their kind offer and simply rang back to say the pole was wobbling as the stay was no longer deeply embedded and the old railway sleeper section was on the surf. We said if the pole went, it would block the road, cut off the power to part of the village and bring down the telephone lines.

They were round moving it and digging it deeper with 2 hours and it was all foc.


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## swanny65 (Sep 12, 2014)

I am no engineer but i have built my own house. I cant imagine it would it be cheaper to float the over-site on a piled based construction over the pipe. So you are left with paying up or building over if and keeping your fingers crossed. The later opinion is not a goer for me either as if you sold the property you have to declare the water main under the property - that going to affect the sale price. 

Do the deeds to the property/land show anything that may be of help.

If you can wait, winter is coming. Leave the pipe exposed to the elements, it bursts. AW then have to get permission to come on your land and fix the pipe - which you could refuse. Thats the time to negotiate with them and get a discount on re-routing the main. You will p**s everyone off who relies on the main for water supply. We have friends and the Mrs works for Northumberland Water. The water company had a similar situation to that i mention earlier this year in a small village. Burst pipe on private land and the owner refusing access as he didn't want his garden ruined. Eventually they did get access but it took over a week. 

Can enquire and find out more about what the land owners rights are, did the water company pay the land owner etc etc if you want me to.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

swanny65 said:


> I am no engineer but i have built my own house. I cant imagine it would it be cheaper to float the over-site on a piled based construction over the pipe. So you are left with paying up or building over if and keeping your fingers crossed. The later opinion is not a goer for me either as if you sold the property you have to declare the water main under the property - that going to affect the sale price.
> 
> Do the deeds to the property/land show anything that may be of help.
> 
> ...


That is a good suggestion. Not sure my ultra honest husband will go for it but I can try.

Anything you can find out will be helpful, thank you.

We are looking into the legal aspect of whether they ever had a legal right to lay the pipe through the land in the first place. If they did not, and there is nothing on our deeds, then we need to find out what our rights are about it being in our way. We have planning permission to build and their pipe is in the way but with, possibly, no legal right to be there.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

We actually have a water main running under our property as well as an electricity supply on a pole above our property. Both of these are in the land deeds as edf and Saur have automatic rights of access as they exercised some years ago when a neighbour wanted mains supply instead of his well water.
I had no say in the matter and complained bitterly that my nice new gravel drive would sink after their restore but this was ignored.

Ray.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Having worked in the electricity industry Wayleave Rights apply, the link below states it also covers other utilities.

We were limited to building a garage on one side of our house as the other side had mains water pipes. Although it was clearly marked on the site maps and written into our deeds.

https://www.lexisnexis.com/uk/lexis...8C-40PV-00000-00/Statutory_wayleaves_overview

Terry


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

raynipper said:


> We actually have a water main running under our property as well as an electricity supply on a pole above our property. Both of these are in the land deeds as edf and Saur have automatic rights of access as they exercised some years ago when a neighbour wanted mains supply instead of his well water.
> I had no say in the matter and complained bitterly that my nice new gravel drive would sink after their restore but this was ignored.
> 
> Ray.


In my industry the issue of 'reinstatement' is always an issue, we withdrew many contracts from contractor digging teams who repeatedly cut corners and failed to reinstate ground correctly. No excuse when a gravel surface is the finish, but lawns are particularly hard to get right.

Terry


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

You need PROFESSIONAL advice rather than taking the (doubtless well meaning) advice of those on ANY forum. Utility companies do have some pretty draconian rights. In my area you are no longer permitted to build over any water supply pipe. It’s pretty obvious really, if you put a conservatory over the top of it, and the pipe leaks, your conservatory is either going to collapse or the floor will get ripped up. 

The cost of moving it does seem extortionate, having said that when I worked for the Highways Authority the cost of having an electric supply laid in for just a roadsign was simply staggering. 

Andy


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

I happened to have a few beers at lunchtime today with a friend who is an engineer and who has spent his whole career working for Southern Water.

I outlined the issue and he queried whether the Council had contacted Anglian Water before they granted planning permission. If they had and if Anglian had said "no issue" then that sort of throws the ball back into Anglian's court. He also wondered if Anglian has an expectation of having to put in a temporary diversion pipe whilst you do the work - if so he could understand the cost. He said that the testing of the new main can also involve a fair bit of work but I think he struggled to see how simply connecting up the pipes could cost that much.

As for easement and wayleaves etc, you won't always know they've been granted by previous owners regardless I think of what it may say in the title deeds. 

However you're only going to get it resolved by using a solicitor who knows about this sort of thing I would have thought.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

In NI Wayleaves aren’t granted by the property/land owner, as Andy mentioned they are rights that Utility Companies command. It ensures they have access to their equipment, even in your home.

Perhaps it’s different in GB but I doubt it.

Terry


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Maybe it's different in England & Wales because I granted a wayleave last year to UK Power Networks to allow them to replace the overhead cable to the pole in my garden with an underground cable. They wanted to do it because they believed there was a safety issue with the overhead cable going through some trees. 

I initially refused to grant the wayleave and tried to trade it against them moling the cable all the way up to my house and getting rid of the pole. They said that had the cable gone anywhere after my house then I might have had some leverage. As it was it only went to my house so if I wanted my electricity supply to continue then I had to sign!


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

NI Wayleave agreements mirror GB, rest assured if you had refused access they would resort to the powers Andy referred to. They were doing the polite thing by asking you rather than just turning up unannounced.

This from the link below regarding access.

"know that, if they make a fuss the utility company will just use its statutory power to get the same right."

https://www.cla.org.uk/events/your-...e-do-i-stand-article-enews-partner-tozers-llp

Terry


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I will be taking legal advice on this. First I am going to ask them if they have an Easement or a Way Leave in place for access to our land.

On a Self Build Forum several people have been in a similar situation. It is, apparently, incumbent upon Anglian Water to prove that they have an Easement or Wayleave right to run a pipe through your property. If they cannot produce one, even if historically there was one, you have the right to ask them to remove said pipe from your land. What usually follows is some horse trading around who is going to pay what. I have seen our deeds several times in the last few years and there is nothing on them about any water company easements or way leaves. There is only one about a telegraph pole.

Oh and the £15K they have asked for is a deposit! I had not noticed this as the figure was so staggering!

I asked if a contractor could do most of the work, i.e. dig all the trenches lay the pipe etc, while AW connected up and tested at the end. They said "yes" but only approved contractors (I can only find one) and that AW's charge for this service was £14K! This seems absolutely ridiculous because the breakdown of the first figure shows a labour fee of £10K.


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

AWs records are not very complete.

We have an Easement on our Deeds allowing us to discharge foul sewage into AWs system. :smile2:

However, they have no record of where it enters. :frown2:

This didn't cause us any concern until our drains started to back up. :crying:

Eventually Dynorod put some sensors down and were able to discover a manhole almost buried under a tree in a corner of our property. Not surprisingly, the blockage was tree roots and the system was cleared and repaired (courtesy of our house insurance).

Now we know where our drains go but I suspect AW are still in the dark. :surprise:

Gordon


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

dghr272 said:


> NI Wayleave agreements mirror GB, rest assured if you had refused access they would resort to the powers Andy referred to. They were doing the polite thing by asking you rather than just turning up unannounced.
> 
> This from the link below regarding access.
> 
> ...


Yes, I know. I did though get them to vary the rights of access that they were initialling demanding in the Wayleave Agreement - specifically as to notice to be given and their right to drive vehicles across my land without my prior consent, not to be unreasonably withheld and all subject to them having rights of unfettered access if the situation demanded it.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I hope you manage to sort it out Pat, we had an issue with where our extension wall was going to be when the started on the footing, the streets drains ran right where the wall should be, we concreted over it and moved the wall out 1 metre, not the same as your of course, good luck


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

The architect's opinion is that we should consider a re design. We did think of that ourselves but it seems such a shame to move the bungalow from a lovely, central, location on the plot of land to one where it is squeezed into a corner of it. We would have to compromise on layout and views. It might also be difficult to arrange the design so that we get those all important South and West facing windows.
I think we will fight on and if we lose we will just have to suck it up.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Good luck Pat, hope you get the outcome you desire.

Terry


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Well BuildHub the self builders forum have been absolutely amazing,

I have asked my, excellent, conveyancing solicitor to check our deeds and she tells me that she has been through them and found no evidence of an easement in them. She did the conveyancing, recently, when we sold some land. She has not asked for any payment for checking our deeds for us.

The building forum encouraged me to look at a map of boreholes (we have one on our property) to find out when ours was drilled. It was drilled in 1948. This means, assuming no one would drill a bore hole if they had mains water, that the main was laid some time after that date. As we know the deeds have been checked for the period since then we can be almost certain that Angian Water have no easement in place to allow a water main to cross our land. It seems that we can give them notice to remove it before charging them a daily rate for the period it remains in place without an easement.
Several people have been through similar experiences and the relevant authority has been forced to comply with the demand to divert the service concerned at their expense.

I just find it mind boggling that they have the temerity to try to get us to pay for their, illegally placed, water main to be moved! The have already procured £35,000 from a farmer friend in our village to move the same water main so that he could build on his building plots.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

That sounds like sensible advice from those who have experienced such things before.

Just a warning though, if AW decides to dispute it and take it to Court, what are their Statutory Powers ?

Courts are notoriously fickle and of course, mind-blowingly expensive 😢. AW are unlikely to simply capitulate and may have some records of a request from a previous owner for a supply to the house as the bore-hole was perhaps unreliable, or the water of too low quality.

Your assumption about what might have been may not carry any weight in a Court though.....

Does that main supply your house now ?

Sorry to be a wet blanket (no pun intended) but it is important to consider possible repercussions from AW whose (publically financed) pockets are VERY deep. :surprise:

Good luck, I hope that it goes well in a timely manner.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Before any court action I would suggest that you raise a formal complaint with AW and give them an opportunity to resolve the matter. Once they fail to satisfactorily resolve your complaint the path is then open to contact the regulatory body OFWAT.

They will then investigate your complaint directly with AW, They also have great powers to ensure AW comply with their findings.

As with the electricity industry water companies must respond to complaints with defined timelines and most certainly can be called to heel and even fined substantial amounts on action related to poor service.

Remember as said you must first give them an opportunity to resolve before the regulatory authority steps in.

https://www.ofwat.gov.uk/regulated-...-we-investigate/complaints-disputes-can-help/

Terry


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

We consulted a solicitor and it turns out that the water industry has a law that says if the pipe has been there for twenty years or more there is nothing we can do 

It looks like we might be taking Terry's advice. The solicitor advised us to ask AW for a more detailed breakdown of the £15000 cost. They had already given a few details, one of which was that labour was costed out at over £10,000! I think the whole trench is about 70 m. I asked for a more detailed costing to include the hourly labour rate but they have just repeated the lump sums again. We have been given, locally, a ball park figure of about £1500 to £2000 to dig the same trench. That leaves a huge amount for the laying and connecting side. 
It is so frustrating because we have an excellent digger driver available and Chris is a plumber! Why can't we just employ our own contractors and have one of their inspectors oversee the work. It is understandable that they will want to be in charge of the connection side of things but the digging?! 
They have a list of approved contractors but I have contacted four of them so far with not one reply


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Update on this -

Eventually found a contractor that was prepared to come out and quote. He, however, is not allowed to connect up the valves to his pipes or flush through the new pipes etc. His quote was £6.7K for supplying all the pipes and doing the bulk of the work.
We got all excited thinking that AW could, surely, only charge a couple of thousand for supplying two valves, connecting them and flushing through. 
They have quoted £12.5K! There is nothing we can do 

We informed the contractor and he described the AW connection and flush work as a "two man and a van" job.

Even more worrying is that all AW figures are "estimates" and not quotes.

As if that is not enough the kind people on the Build Hub forum inform me that AW did a similar job a while ago for them. They "estimated" it to cost £5K and then sent the final bill for £8.5K. Then the job took months longer than it should as they would turn up and then bugger off to another job after a couple of hours. Even when it was all completed they took weeks and weeks to "commission" the work which meant he could not get on with his project.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

I know nothing about these things Pat but if these people, AW, have a monopoly on the job, could you not take it up with the ombudsman?


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

jiwawa said:


> I know nothing about these things Pat but if these people, AW, have a monopoly on the job, could you not take it up with the ombudsman?


I missed this at the time, Jean. We took it to the Ombudsman and they were less than helpful. It was during Covid of course and all I got back was a juvenile type reply that, it was clear to me, meant that they had not read the complaint properly. The next step would be my MP but I think they are about as much use as a rice pudding.


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## mynijah (Oct 28, 2021)

Thank you for this thread full of useful tips!


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