# Swift claim their Kontiki is fully-winterised. Definitely!



## LondonMotorhomeHire

Our latest baby has just returned from a trip with some clients having toured the German and Austrian snowlands. 
I thought I'd share the feedback that there was not a single hitch, in any respect but especially regarding the wintery conditions.

I'm delighted as some claims fall short of reality but this van really is prepared for the sub-zero temps.


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## 104477

That is sooo coool :lol: 

We were discussing winterised 'vans while in Germany over Xmas, ours isn't fully as the grey waste is under slung ( though did not have a problem with it) . Our next one will have to be though as we so enjoy getting away from the UK at xmas but Sue's work means limited time off for trips to warmer climes.
Whilst we love our Rapido we will definately be considering all options when the time comes, positive feedback from posts like yours are of great interest.
Regards Rob.


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## peejay

Hi Tug;

Thanks for the piccies.
Whereabouts in Germany and Austria please?.

Pete


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## moblee

Excellent pictures tug66 :!:


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## 96410

I was looking at a van the same as yours in my local B and Q yesterday, wow, what a stunning machine.


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## pippin

I didn't know that B&Q are now motorhome dealers.

I quite fancy that 10% discount on top of the 15% for my over 60's card!!


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## buttons

They must have come on leaps and bounds since the earlier Swift kontiki that I had from new. 
Aptly named “Konleaky”. We needed an umbrella to stay dry when dinning inside. 
It went back to the factory to be resealed after only six months but still leaked like a sieve.
That experience put me off swifts for life, hell would freeze over before I would have another.


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## RichardnGill

Interesting as we are soon to buy a similar van (Bessie 789) and I was a bit concerned about the winterisation of the Swift as we currently have a Hymer which is good in the winter. 

Did you have any problems with the waste freezing? or does yours have the heated tanks? 

Did you find the cab warm enough with out any external blinds? 


Richard...


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## 96410

pippin,
well now you do.


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## LondonMotorhomeHire

Well, Gee, thanks for your collective responses. I'll try to reply......

In a bit more detail the family said that it all proved to be the best holiday they've experienced considering it was their first ever MH holiday. I think they were astonished how well the van stood up to the conditions.

If considering as serious as buying one, there was a slight hitch with freezing, but again, swift have designed-in a solution, though it might be intended for hairballs rather than pockets of ice. As mentioned by one of you (sorry for being too lazy to flick back n forth) the only hitch they had was on one occasion when the grey waste wouldn't empty from the sink. The pipe from there to the tank runs low underneath and, as there are elsewhere, there is an inspection/drain pot which is easily accessible from under the van beside the entrance door. This had become iced, so a quick unscrew, some warm water and it was free'd up. Problem solved.
The family reported otherwise that the van was as if at home when in these freezing conditions, both day and night. 
All I have to do now is find the time to try it out for ourselves....maybe next year.

Umm, where did they go? bearing in mind it wasn't me, but our hirers/clients.
Another product plug then....we have the Smart-track Utrack tracker system installed and as you having asked, i can see looking back at their history that they were actually mostly around St Gallen, not a million miles from Zurich and Lichtenstien in the mountains for NYE and also Reute, Lochau, Bregenz and Shwarzenburg. (all double dutch to me)

So, there we have it.........jelious like hell.

Happy Camping!


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## tude

hi there
well dont wont to dampen things we have just got back from les gets in the alps well i can tell you my waste tank froze even with the tap left open also the waste pipe from shower and rear sink froze but it did drop to -15 overnite.i have a kontiki 655p 2007 model also alps and back to uk it returned 22.7 mpg its a 3 litre model tude


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## pippin

Blimey, you don't half talk fast!


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## Codfinger

rapidorob said:


> That is sooo coool :lol:
> 
> We were discussing winterised 'vans while in Germany over Xmas, ours isn't fully as the grey waste is under slung ( though did not have a problem with it) . Our next one will have to be though as we so enjoy getting away from the UK at xmas but Sue's work means limited time off for trips to warmer climes.
> Whilst we love our Rapido we will definately be considering all options when the time comes, positive feedback from posts like yours are of great interest.
> Regards Rob.


I thought the grey waste was heated on the Rapido?


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## b16duv

tude said:


> hi there
> well dont wont to dampen things we have just got back from les gets in the alps well i can tell you my waste tank froze even with the tap left open also the waste pipe from shower and rear sink froze but it did drop to -15 overnite.i have a kontiki 655p 2007 model also alps and back to uk it returned 22.7 mpg its a 3 litre model tude


So that confirms it then - The Swift Kontiki is fully winterised - definitely (unless it gets cold and the waste freezes up)

Maybe they have the same PR people as the Government, who are, apparently, fully in control of the economy (unless there is a recession)

David :twisted: :twisted:


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## LondonMotorhomeHire

Thats a real shame tude but I guess minus 15 is a bit below the norm of wintery conditions...........(trying to be at least a bit reasonable about it rather than getting all angry and red-faced over it, David)

Bearing in mind 'winterised' is one thing, eskimo-ised is another.

Put antifreeze in your fresh water, it's great for teeth-whitening! 
(ahem, joke) and your waste wont freeze-up.

Now waiting for the hail of 'its reaches -20 here, and -40 there 8O


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## b16duv

tug66 said:


> Thats a real shame tude but I guess minus 15 is a bit below the norm of wintery conditions...........(trying to be at least a bit reasonable about it rather than getting all angry and red-faced over it, David)
> 
> Bearing in mind 'winterised' is one thing, eskimo-ised is another.
> 
> Put antifreeze in your fresh water, it's great for teeth-whitening!
> (ahem, joke) and your waste wont freeze-up.
> 
> Now waiting for the hail of 'its reaches -20 here, and -40 there 8O


Not in the least angry or red-faced, tug, but surely winterised means that you can use it in the winter? Freezing waste pipes means that the water systems in the van can't be used until the pipe is thawed.

And yes, I have had mine in the alps at -20 overnight and nothing froze! But then it is winterised - all pipes are inboard, as are both fresh and waste tanks and the dump valve for the waste. The double floor is heated (this is where the tanks and pipes are) by the blown air heating, so you can walk about inside the van in bare feet on a nice warm floor.

The germans, in particular, are good at winterising vans - I had a euramobile sport, bottom of the range, and it was fully winterised too.

My personal opinion is that externally mounted tanks, even with electric heaters, cannot cope in sub-zero temperatures. (electric heating is no good unless you are on hook-up).

In the end of the day, it's horses for courses, and I wanted a van that could cope in sub-zero temperatures without any extra hassle.

David


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## LondonMotorhomeHire

Indeed David, without hesitation I would agree that the Germans will always win in the built to survive the cold stakes and it isn't even worth me or most likely anyone attempting to compare the British in the form of Swift. Perhaps our winterised and their winterised are degrees apart.

I'm just going to bow out now as my original post was in the spirit of a 'yippee, it behaved well and all had a great experience' and share that with other users of a similar vehicle. 

What credit crunch?  

David, is yours front or rear wheel drive and did you have to use snow-chains ever? 1 or 2 pairs?

Mark.


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## b16duv

tug66 said:


> Indeed David, without hesitation I would agree that the Germans will always win in the built to survive the cold stakes and it isn't even worth me or most likely anyone attempting to compare the British in the form of Swift. Perhaps our winterised and their winterised are degrees apart.
> 
> I'm just going to bow out now as my original post was in the spirit of a 'yippee, it behaved well and all had a great experience' and share that with other users of a similar vehicle.
> 
> What credit crunch?
> 
> David, is yours front or rear wheel drive and did you have to use snow-chains ever? 1 or 2 pairs?


Mark,

Firstly, I really didn't intend to rain on your parade, sorry if I have.

I believe that the winterisation of a motohome is contained in EN1646 standard, and relates in part to heating time from a specific ambient temp to a 'habitable' condition.

Anyhow, hope you enjoy your van and get lots of use from it.

Mine is front wheel drive, and yes, I have 1 pair of snow chains for the driven wheels, though I have never used them in anger - last time i got the snow plough driver to clear the 2 foot of snow from in front of the van before we departed.

The ski resorts seem to be quite good at clearing the roads up the mountain, so I wait til they have done that before moving.

Mine runs at 4 tonne gross, but in winter the garage isn't too full, so there isn't too much weight at the back. Traction is limited more by the tyres, and I intend to change to a proper winter tyre for next year.

All the best

David


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## b16duv

sorry, duplicate post!


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## RichardnGill

Just to get back on topic, has any one else got first hand winter experance in a 2007> Kon Tikki or Bessie E7??

I would really like to know what to watch out for while winter camping in one as we are about to but a new one.

Is there a fix for the exposed wast pipe? 

Are the tanks OK as the van is double floored?

Richard...


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## LondonMotorhomeHire

Richard,

I, for one, will try to add some more to this to assist you in a day or two when time allows - i'll have a close look at what my hirer was saying about the pipe in question. 
At a glance, I certainly like the fact that inspection/unblocking 'cups' are located inline in any case.

Have you yet come across the swift cross-section diagrams of these vans showing the internal-insulated-heated tanks between the two floors?

Mark.


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## buttons

My konleaky was also winterised fully, pity that didn't include the hot water tank that froze and blew the end off making a right old mess. 8O


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## Rapide561

*Winter*

Hi

I have a Kontiki 679 (edited) and over the recent frosty nights - minus 8 and similar, I had no problems with the fresh or waste water tanks freezing as they have a heater fitted.

However, the weakspot seems to be the pipe carrying waste water from the shower to the waste tank. This froze solid - unbeknown to me until I had a shower and flooded the whole area. All three waste pipes - kitchn sink, loo sink and from the shower tray are external. Examination of the pipe area proved the pipes were frozen solid. After mopping up the loo area, I managed to defrost the pipes using a warmed towel.

The heating system inside does keep the van warm enough though, using electric on the 1800 wattt setting (Truma Combi 6) and giving the heating a higher blast with the gas (an extra 2000 or 4000 watts) when needed.

Last night was bitterly cold and there has been a snow flurry. We are in Worcestershire at the CCC Blackmore.

Grade Three insulation - as deemed for the Kontiki - means that the heating when switched on should be able to maintain an interior temperature of plus twenty degrees C when the external termperature is minus 15 degrees C. I have yet to test these extreme conditions, but the way the winter is panning out, this looks quite possible!

Here is a pic from this morning - sadly not as much snow as earlier in the thread!

Russell


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## nukeadmin

thought you had a 679 Russell 
Would there be any way of lagging these pipes somehow to prevent freezing if they are externally routed ?


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## Rapide561

*679*

Dave - that pic is a 679! Get your glasses on.

There are three external waste pipes on my van. One from the kitchen sink and another from the washroom sink. These slope downwards to the waste tank. The wate pipe from the shower seems to sit horizontal and due ot having a waste trap, the latter holds and collects water. This freezes and expands. The pipe in question is alongside the rear twin wheels on the drivers side. I do not believe insulating the pipe would help and the amount of spray, much and road dirt thown onto it would probably force it to work loose. Also, in the recent temperatures - -5 and less night after night. I think the frost would actually get through the insulation and then it would be even harder to defrost.

Salt water as an interim fix.

Russell


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## Rapide561

*Winter*

Richard

Re your earlier post about winter in a van. Obviously I have come through this winter so far with the 679 and spent last winter in the 669 at the CCC in Boroughbridge. February was bitterly cold - you may recall the photos of the thermometer showing the -8 and -9 temperatures. The van was once again warm enough but the weak spot was the waste pipe from the kitch sink on that van. The shower was ok.

There are numerous remedies available with a bit of time, thought, effort and money.

There are waste traps on the pipe but that was the area that was frozen solid last week. Impossible therefore to unscrew the cap without causing damage.

Grade three - as far as I am aware and as already mentioned by Dave relates to the heating of the habitation area.

Fully winterised in my view - note my view only and not a definition as such - is something along the lines of a Dethleffs A7871-2 where ALL pipes and plumbing is inboard. I used the Dethleffs as an example as I researched the product thoroughly before commiting to the 679.

To be fair though, the temperatures over recent days have been fairly extreme and also, this is a prolonged cold snap.

I have found some 12v heating things for pipes but for the sake of a couple of weeks per year, is it worth the hassle of fitting them? I am more interested in altering the angle of the pipes. More downward slope - less chance of "standing water" - less chance of freezing.

Russell


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## nukeadmin

I know the picture is of a 679 and i know your profile says 679, but you said


> I have a Kontiki 669 and over the recent frosty nights


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## Rapide561

*679*

Top spot, Dave - edited for clarity now!

Russell


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## SwiftGroup

Read your posts with interest and will investigate the waste pipes freezing.Peter.


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## SwiftGroup

The fresh tanks in all our current Motorhomes are insulated with 15mm thick walls, the waste tanks are single skinned. The Kon-tiki and E700 from 2009 have tank heaters as standard (part of the winter pack option on Bolero and Voyager). The fresh tank on Kontiki and E700 is mounted inbetween the double floors which is heated additionally by the blown air system. 

The issue seems to be in extreme or prolonged conditions the waste pipes are freezing up. Provided the water doesn't sit in the pipes and has a reasonable drain rate this shouldn't have been an issue but we suspect that the traps which are there to prevent smells entering the vehicles are freezing up. Previously when these were mounted inboard we struggled to achieve a decent flow rate (as a certain amount of water pressure is required). Clearly, we need to conduct some more testing on the positioning of these and the insualting of the pipes.

It is reassuring however to see that the vans otherwise are working well in these extreme conditions.

Regards
Andy - Swift Technical


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## Zebedee

Anything will freeze up if it's left undisturbed and unheated for long enough.

Unless it is 100% effective (practically impossible) insulation can do nothing more than slow down the process - in both directions.

It makes the system slower to freeze, but equally slower to thaw. It can therefore be a two-edged sword!! 8O 

The less volume of water there is the quicker it will freeze, which is why the pipework is always the first to go.

Hope this helps a bit. Even Swift can't work miracles . . . . well, not all the time anyway!!


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## peejay

I think this is one area where there is room for improvement on most British motorhomes that claim to be 'winterised' and where they must be losing sales to their continental counterparts. Its certainly a big reason why I chose German as opposed to British.

On Hymers and most other continentals with double floors every pipe including all the runs into the waste tank are within the double floor. On a Kontiki with a double flloor, surely it must be possible to keep all the pipe runs within this area, especially on a van that claims to be fully winterised?
Peter?

Pete


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## b16duv

Zebedee said:


> Anything will freeze up if it's left undisturbed and unheated for long enough.
> 
> Unless it is 100% effective (practically impossible) insulation can do nothing more than slow down the process - in both directions.
> 
> It makes the system slower to freeze, but equally slower to thaw. It can therefore be a two-edged sword!! 8O
> 
> The less volume of water there is the quicker it will freeze, which is why the pipework is always the first to go.
> 
> Hope this helps a bit. Even Swift can't work miracles . . . . well, not all the time anyway!!


Absolutely Zeb, however: -

Being 'winterised' doesn't mean pipes etc won't freeze ever, but should mean that pipes and tanks won't freeze when the motorhome is 'in use'?That is, with the habitation heating on to provide a level of warmth suitable for, well, habitation really.

So any underslung tank or pipework will freeze (eventually)in sub-zero temperatures.

Does anyone know what the various standards of 'winterisation' are?

Then we could compare eggs with eggs!

David


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## Zebedee

b16duv said:


> Does anyone know what the various standards of 'winterisation' are?
> Then we could compare eggs with eggs!
> David


Assuming such "standards" exist (and are adhered to) that would certainly be useful. 

I wasn't being critical of anyone, but just making a general point which is sometimes forgotten. Some folk seem to think that insulation works like magic, and that insulated pipes and tanks are somehow prevented from freezing in almost any conditions. :wink: :roll:

Dave


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## b16duv

Zebedee said:


> b16duv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what the various standards of 'winterisation' are?
> Then we could compare eggs with eggs!
> David
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming such "standards" exist (and are adhered to) that would certainly be useful.
> 
> I wasn't being critical of anyone, but just making a general point which is sometimes forgotten. Some folk seem to think that insulation works like magic, and that insulated pipes and tanks are somehow prevented from freezing in almost any conditions. :wink: :roll:
> 
> Dave
Click to expand...

I went into my van this morning and the inside temperature was -1. Colder outside though, so yes, my pipes would be frozen were there water in them.

There was an earlier post that stated that the kontiki was winterised to en1646 level 3. On that basis, there must be a 'standard' (or at least 3!).

I too am not trying to be critical of anyone's van, but would like to know what being 'winterised' actually means. (and not specifically in relation to Swift).

David


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## Rapide561

*Insulation grades*

Hi

In order to attain grade 3, the "unit" (ie motorhome or caravan) must be able to attain an interior temperature of plus 20 degrees C, with the heating on, when the outside temperature is - 15 degrees C

Grade 2, a similar theme, with the interior temperature of plus 20 degrees C when the exterior temp is zero degrees C

I have no idea about grade 1

Russell


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## b16duv

*Re: Insulation grades*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> In order to attain grade 3, the "unit" (ie motorhome or caravan) must be able to attain an interior temperature of plus 20 degrees C, with the heating on, when the outside temperature is - 15 degrees C
> 
> Grade 2, a similar theme, with the interior temperature of plus 20 degrees C when the exterior temp is zero degrees C
> 
> I have no idea about grade 1
> 
> Russell


Thanks, Russell


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## DABurleigh

A work colleague had a week's skiing just before Christmas. One day it got quite balmy at minus 26C but most of the time it was minus 42C. I wonder what a Grade 3 motorhome would get the temperature up to in those conditions 

Dave


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## tviall

I have the same question as you David.

I have a 2008 Chieftain which like a Swift is a UK built van and I would guess built to the same "winter" standards as Autotrail. I would hope therefore that my van would also be able to cope with the cold temperatures. Does anyone know?


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## sersol

I'm not sure about all the teccy stuff but I've been away at -18 and nothing froze and very warm inside m/h (Eura-Mobil Integra)
Went away in a Autostratus -2 all froze so came home.
Not saying that German m/h's are better than brit's as such but when they say "winterised" they mean it.
Gary


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## Rapide561

*Temps*



DABurleigh said:


> A work colleague had a week's skiing just before Christmas. One day it got quite balmy at minus 26C but most of the time it was minus 42C. I wonder what a Grade 3 motorhome would get the temperature up to in those conditions
> 
> Dave


Dave - I cannot answer your question, but will say that even when the outside temp is -8 and -9, the interior of the van is 23 or 24 degrees C, and the heating is not on at full pelt. Having the Truma Combi 6 on full pelt is just unbearably hot.

The coldest temperature I have ever expereinced in the UK was last winter with -9 recorded on my outdoor thermometer. Tonight may surpass that, but I am in Worcester and my thermometer is in Derbyshire!

The coldest temperature I have seen on a thermometer overseas was -22 degrees C in Salzburg. The Webasto heating was left in use overnight on the coach and all was well.

Russell


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## b16duv

sersol said:


> I'm not sure about all the teccy stuff but I've been away at -18 and nothing froze and very warm inside m/h (Eura-Mobil Integra)
> Went away in a Autostratus -2 all froze so came home.
> Not saying that German m/h's are better than brit's as such but when they say "winterised" they mean it.
> Gary


Gary,

I could be wrong (often am), but I seem to remember that the Euramobil
was the winner in a test of M/H winterisation - based on the time it took to go from -20 to +20 degrees.

Tviall,

I have come to the conclusion (based on Russells posts) that the term 'winterisation' relates to the ability of the M/H to reach and maintain a set temperature relative to a specific ambient temp. (EN1646)

The ability of the motorhome to actually function as a motorhome (use shower, toilet, sinks etc) with a severe ambient temperature doesn't seem to be part of the standard.

Thus, I apologise for my earlier (slightly humorous?, well attempt at humour) posts where I questioned the validity of the claim that Swift Kontiki's are fully winterised. This was based on my understanding of the term, and not the standard definition which would support the claim.

Hope that clears everything up and we can all be pals again?

It's bleedin' cold outside, can I come in now?

David


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## 115195

Here goes my tuppence worth. We have the 769 Bessie and as stated on previous posts concerning waste pipes etc I've had 2 weeks of crawling under the van trying to thaw out the bleeding things. I've insulated all the waste pipes that run on the outside with German double grade insulation. All the way from the top to the bottom and onto the waste tank itself. The waste pipe from the tank has even been done. Might as well saved my money. It's been that cold in Austria that even the hot water feed to the shower and sink decided to freeze up 8O We went through Germany with no problems at all. Seems - 6 to -8 everything is ok. But anything colder and the fun starts. We were in Ferlach in Austria and the whole waste water tank was 1 big ice cube. We ended up driving into Italy to defrost! Surely Swift could come up with a better design for these pipes and waste water tanks? Apart from not doing cold climates what else is there to do? Do the Germans sell a non toxic anti freeze for the fresh water? Now in Italy and it's lashing it down but at least I'll not have frozen pipes.


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