# I need a new engine!



## macapaca

Hello,

I thought I should post a message to see if anyone could offer some advice about my engine problem.

While on holiday in Cornwall last week , I was driving my Niesmann & Bischoff Arto( Fiat ducato 2.8JTD 2004) up a steep hill when the engine suddenly failed and made horrible noises and seized up.
The garage have just phoned me to say that the engine is beyond repair as there are so many broken bits of metal everywhere (diesel in engine probably from failed injectors) 
They are a proper Fiat service garage and said it will be about £10K parts and labour, using a good reconditioned engine from Fiat.
I am obviously a bit upset about this.
The bulk of that figure is parts. 
Would it be a foolish thing to buy a secondhand engine like this one on ebay(131214321699)?
Any advise would be very welcome!


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## Penquin

e-Bay has little in the way of guarantees - if it works that is as far as you can go...... you need a decent, reliable engine that has no faults, e-Bay may well end up costing a lot more in the short and long term......

I would not consider e-Bay, but would look at the possibility of alternatives and even having someone recondition YOUR engine - not a FIAT dealer...

You need to ensure that the price they have quoted is reasonable - check other prices and other options, including finding an engine where the back end of the vehicle has been written off by a rear end shunt....

but you will pay a lot to locate, remove and refit and would still have no guarantee that it will work....

So, no easy answer but the FIAT option does have back-up and guarantees to support it....

Dave


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## Ian_n_Suzy

Sorry to hear of your mis-fortune.

Would the same company install a used engine as I would suspect they will only use original new parts rather than parts supplied by yourself?

If they (or another garage) would fit it, have they given you an idea of labour only costs to drop the engine in?


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## macapaca

Thanks for the reply.

I am almost certain that the garage would not want to touch a 2nd hand engine with no guarantee on it.

They were talking about £2500.00 labour for the work + VAT.

Does this happen often to engines or was I very unlucky?

There seemed to be no warning, just a few seconds of noise and smoke!


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## trek

maybe buy a running van in good condition with same engine as yours if you can find one and transplant the engine ?

then scrap the van


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## camallison

It really depends on how long you plan to keep the van and plan to use it after the work is done. More than a couple of years, and my vote would be to go with the offer you have on the table, with a warranty of course. Reconditioned means work has been expended ensuring the engine is as good as new, or almost.

Colin


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## nicholsong

Macapaca

Sorry to hear your plight - especially as owner of similar Arto(2003).

My first advice would be that you need a bit of time to look in detail at the problem and get advice from here and elsewhere.

At the moment I think you have not posted enough info as to what has actually failed to allow a good engineer to judge what needs to be replaced. 

The cause of the failure is not clear from your brief 'diesel in the engine....'

On the face of it there has probably been over-compression in the block, but we need to know more.

Maybe only the engine block needs to be replaced, or even only the head - it depends on what is broken.

Most of the ancillary parts - fuel pump, water pump etc. should be re-usable on a new block and not require a re-conditioned complete engine, which is possible what Fiat are quoting for at that price.

At a Fiat main dealer the cost of swopping the ancillary bits to a new block may be expensive, but a good backstreet workshop may be able to do it for a lot less.

Get a written report of the damage and then more advice on here or even pay a good Consultant Automotive Engineer to advise you.

There will be others on here with more advice I am sure.

Geoff


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## macapaca

Thanks Geoff.
The garage said that the engine was full of diesel, which had probably been caused by the failing injectors. They said that they couldn't turn the engine at all as it was totally siezed up and fused together. Lots of small bits of metal everywhere and broken up piedces. They said it would be almost impossible to repair and with all the debris everywhere it could be a big risk if they missed a bit.
They were very sympathetic and said they would drop their hourly rate down by 25% for me and really try to get it fixed as quickly as they could.
I really love this van and have done about 24000 miles in the five years I have had it.


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## rayrecrok

Hey up.


There should be loads of places to pick up reconditioned engines, the problem being they usually take your engine off you so they can fix that for the next guy..

For it to fail so catastrophically it sounds as though your timing belt went, have you had it changed, if you did there might be some come back against the garage that did it, or is it a chain?..

Either way it's a nightmare.. 8O 

ray.


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## Penquin

It certainly sounds like they are helping you as far as they can....

Just a similar account of what happened to me with a Volvo 850 petrol....

I was driving home from school after a parents meeting one evening when the engine suddenly made lots of nasty noises and stopped....

the RAC came and said "needs a major sort out as there is no compression at all....

we contacted the main Volvo dealer they quoted £7000 plus (8 years ago), my local garage took the engine apart and found the timing belt tensioner had failed and had detached itself (the timing belt had been changed by the main dealer before I got the car 2 years earlier.... they had NOT changed the tensioner - "not something we would normally do")

The garage found out of 24 valves, 2 were usable, several were bent, some snapped.....

It took them 4 weeks but the final result was better and quieter than before and the total cost £1500.......

So it may be worth seeking out smaller independent garages/workshops where you do not pay the National Debt off every hour......

But in the end only you can put a value on the MH, and they are knocking the price down - *BUT DO GET A FIRM MAXIMUM PRICE IN WRITING BEFORE THEY START.....*

There was a lady on here a few weeks ago who had not and the bill became extortionate and of course if you don't pay they can hang onto and sell the vehicle to cover the costs.....

Dave


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## Mike48

It's a pity that when posters ask for advice their location is not in the box on the left hand side. Members here might have experienced similar problems and/or could recommend a source for a new engine or engine reconditioner but without knowledge of their location that would be pointless.


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## cabby

Have you actually got a written quote of the condition of the engine with a full list of the work to be done and the parts listed with prices and labour charge. Have they taken the engine out already, have you seen it yourself. could they settle for a short engine.
If we knew which part of the country you lived in, as your details do not show this, we could advise a different garage,or who to give you a second opinion bearing in mind that should you go elsewhere there would be a charge for transporting, maybe even a charge from the existing garage for work already done. I also won der where all the nuts and bolts etc that belong to your van are being kept, not spread out around the workshop floor. 
Check against the list of spares for things like Turbo and alternator, can your old one be used to save money, most can be bolted on before fitting the new engine, but do have all the new hoses and belts.

cabby


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## macapaca

I am based in SE London.

The garage have said that it is so badly damaged, it is better to replace it with an as new engine.

I have to collect a load of stuff from the van this week and will have a look myself at the damage.

I just wanted to get a few ideas from the members here before I have to speak to the garage again.

Thanks for all the help.


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## Stanner

For an idea of the actual cost of a recon engine try Ivor Searle here

http://www.ivorsearle.co.uk/fiat_turbos.htm

They have an excellent reputation.

As your engine may not be suitable for chopping in you may need to call them and explain your situation.


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## garrynsarah

*i need a new engine*

I would try 1st choice or find a part or 247 spares.com 
I have used 1st choice on a number off occasions to buy various parts large and small they will give a guarantee and it can all be done online and you get to know the mileage off the engine never had any problems from them


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## pete4x4

I would also move it away from the dealer to an independent, labour would be a lot less plus they might rebuild the engine or rebuild a secondhand one.
I would buy off ebay but I would rebuild that engine.


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## nicholsong

It is possible that the experience of the workshop personnel in the Fiat dealer only goes as far as 'replacemenr' and would not know how to grind in and re-seat a valve and certainly not how to re-set the pressures on the injectors(for that go to Watsons in Wimbledon,amongst others)

I am not even sure the Fiat Agent has properly diagnosed the cause of the problem - have they had the head off? Have they examined the push-rods, valves and the cam-shaft/big-end bearings?

If you do not get the answers to these questions and fuelled with this information to take to a competent engineer you are likely to get legged-over.

I am speaking from experience - I got good advice and came out on top.

Geoff


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## PF13

I had a problem with the engine on a volvo v70 t5. The head had been overtightened and the block split open. I needed a new engine. Volvo quoted 7k. I found a volvo breakers and workshop. Bought a secondhand t5 engine off them which had come off a late plate 850 with minor damage which they had in after buying from a write off auction. I paid a grand for the engine and then they fitted with new clutch, belts and full service fluids etc.... Total bill was 1751 quid which hurt enough at the time that i remember the exact figure now 13 years later, but soooo much more palatable than the volvo quote.

i would therefore try and find some sort of fiat equivalent of a breakers and workshop and you might have a solution. I would avoid any reconditioned engine that is on a pallet and advertised as the industry is full of fraudsters. Work really hard to find one in a van and then see the van and go from there. Also do your research on where else that engine is fitted and therefore where you could find one. 

Your biggest challenge i guess is that the 2.8 engine is i think quite old now so mostwritten off vans of the era will be written off as they have done monster miles and are knackered. Would a later fiat 3.0 engine fit the same mounts? Or the more modern ford 2.2 or fiat 2.3 although they might be a bit underpowered.

Good luck


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## cabby

Have to agree with Geoff on this as well.

cabby


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## ozwhit

hi i had a similar problem with my engine ,the 2.0 litre version , garage said 6k , but manged to do it for 2k , engine rebuild , and parts,but fitted it myself, the 2.8 engine is a fairly strong engine , what happend , piston failure maybe ? id source a good secondhand , and fit new cambelt , waterpump, injector service etc .hope you get sorted ..regards gary


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## Pat-H

I'd look for a used engine still in a van and see/hear it running.
Depending on the mileage it's done I'd then consider rebuilding while it's out.


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## scrinchy

We had an engine failure with our 2.9 mercedes a year ago and needed a rebuild with new bits. We thought about a new or refurbished replacement engine from a third party but who fits it and fixes the snags? 
The advice from a local commercial vehicle garage was to use a chap they knew of to rebuild and fit it and then when any problems arose afterwards ( which they did) we would not get caught in the middle as they were both on the same side. It cost about 5k.
Anyway a year later we're running along with a nearly new engine.

Good luck with whatever way you go.

Scrinchy


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## eurajohn

Whilst most of the above is well meaning, for the OP to act upon the majority they would need to be very competent mechanically with full workshop facilities able to accommodate a vehicle the size of theirs. Failing that be able to find a reliable firm willing to undertake the fitting of second-hand parts.
Problems associated with the latter will be, at least, the expense already incurred at the Fiat agent, transport to the new workshop and then any parts fitted will not have a worthwhile warranty, whilst most sellers of second hand units will give a warranty of sorts they will not cover the cost of removal and fitting of parts or assemblies, so I'd suggest they would spend a large sum of money and it would be luck of the draw as to whether or not the unit fitted gave reliable trouble free service.
Unpalatable as it may be, if the Fiat workshops remedy is chosen they will at least get a properly guaranteed replacement covering parts and labour.
The only other alternative I would be willing to choose would be via an organisation such as the one linked to by Stanner.

Just my twopennorth, from someone equipped to do such a job both from experience and facilities.


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## Zuma

I haven't used this company, but they appear to have a good reputation and have been in business for years.

http://www.ivorsearle.co.uk/fiat_engines.htm


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## macapaca

Thanks everone for the kind help.

I decided to go for a remanufactured engine from Ivor searle.

It was £2061.00 +VAT 

A similar price for the Fiat service centre to put it all back together again.

I will get the injectors tested and refurbished if needed.

I will post an update when I have news.


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## macapaca

Hi Everyone,

It has been an expensive week.
Once the garage dropped the engine out they found out the turbo-charger was damaged and needed replacing. Also two of the injectors were damaged.
The clutch was also looking very worn so that is also being repaced.
I have found a remanufactured turbo and an reasonably priced clutch. The injectors are going to a garage in Wimbledon for repair.
The air-conditioner pump has had it's theads destroyed when disconnecting the pipes.
I am need to find out a way of sorting this peoblem out.
I will make a new post on this problem.


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## coppo

Bloody hell, it never rains does it.

Hope there is nothing else found that needs replacing.

I shouldn't bother with the lottery tonight, our luck is out.

Seriously, best wishes for a smooth put back together with no more issues.

Paul.


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## JockandRita

Hi Macapaca,

Sorry to read of your woes re the engine failure, and subsequent further damage to components.  

Although it was an insurance job, we are happy customers with our replacement engine from Ivor Searle at Soham, (as in the two links above). It was fitted by Ford & Slater (P/boro branch) who are Fiat Professional, as well Iveco and Volvo commercial agents.

I wish you well with the repairs, and hope that you are soon "back on the run".

All the best, :thumbright:

Jock.


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## pippin

The Ivor Searle video is fascinating - to a total mechanical numpty.


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## Penquin

Sorry to hear of further woes, I hope they can be sorted soon, glad the Ivor Searle link was helpful - that reflects comments I have had from others who have had to do the same thing......  

Dave


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## pete4x4

macapaca said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> It has been an expensive week.
> Once the garage dropped the engine out they found out the turbo-charger was damaged and needed replacing. Also two of the injectors were damaged.
> The clutch was also looking very worn so that is also being repaced.
> I have found a remanufactured turbo and an reasonably priced clutch. The injectors are going to a garage in Wimbledon for repair.
> The air-conditioner pump has had it's theads destroyed when disconnecting the pipes.
> I am need to find out a way of sorting this peoblem out.
> I will make a new post on this problem.


You will probably be able to replace the threads in the pump with helicoils. The garage that trashed it will know that.


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