# Is it time for metered pitch electricity ?



## peedee

My thanks to all those who voted and made comment on my poll about "Pitches without hook ups" As much as many of us would like to see this, it is just not going to happen more widely due to the popularity of hook ups. The fact that site owners are not going to risk lowering pitch occupancy by providing these and the rising cost of pitch prices got me thinking. I also noticed the trend by smaller site owners to introduce metering and have used such pitches.

Surely metering is the way to go on all sites? What do you think?

To help you make up your mind here is what I posted on an ongoing thread on the OAL forum:

_I have just re-read all of this thread as a result of a rekindled interest in the electricity debate. It reminded me that I had read some of it sometime ago but had forgotten all about it. It contains some useful information and some of the views expressed by those who have used metered electricity align with my own and maybe like me, you have that feeling that you are being ripped off by many, but not all, site owners when there is an inclusive charge for electricity. This is especially so in the summer months. Ok you have the choice not to use these rip off sites but it does not distract from the fact that it would be fairer on the customer and the owner to meter electricity use.

When the law first changed, metering of electricity was not a practical proposition for most owners. There were also concerns that if they did so this would lead to disputes. With what is available today, I do not think this is the case anymore and I don't see why the cost of installation and any standing charges are not included in the price of a pitch as they are now with consumption paid for by the customer using card meters. I think it is a lame excuse that sites would now fall foul of the regulator. All a site has to do is publish its unit charge and if so demanded show proof it was not overcharging. I am sure it would not be that hard to prove what the unit charge should be.

Since the law changed in 2003 the cost of meters has come down and electricity prices have risen dramatically. Reasonably priced card meters are now also available which take away the need for site managers to read meters making it more practical to install them.

The OP's reference document was written in 2008, it states that the British Holiday and Home Parks Association advised the costs to install meters on a 5 van site would be of the order of £1000 i.e. £200 per pitch. Later in the same article the owner of a 40 pitch site advised it cost £5000 for meter installation on his pitches i.e. £125 per pitch. Therefore, it is fair to assume the cost in 2008 of installing an electricity meter on a pitch was between £125 to £200 per pitch with the actual cost dependent on the buying power of a site. There has been some inflation since then but the cost of meters has fallen so in my view it could still be a fair representation of costs today, although to me, even at £125, this looks expensive when the cost of a card meter is, at most, £50.

So, how much extra would an owner have to charge to cover these installation costs? Meters should have a long life but realistically you would expect to recover electronic equipment costs over 5 years.

If a site was only open mid March until mid October which is 7 months or about a 210 day season and a yard stick for pitch use, according to the Caravan Club, is 65 percent occupancy, this equates to 135 days use. 
Therefore if it cost £200 per pitch the extra pitch cost to recover the expense over 5 years is:

200/135 x 5 = 0.30p per night when rounded up to the nearest penny.

If it only cost £125 per pitch then the extra cost per night over 5 years would be:

125/135 x 5 = 0.19p per night when rounded up to the nearest penny.

It is difficult to find out the electricity charge content when there is in an inclusive pitch fee but it is estimated to be £4 to £6. This is certainly true of a site open all year round but it may be less for a site which opens only for the summer season. Thus if meters were installed the pitch fee, once reduced by the fixed electricity charge, would only need to increase by 19p to 30p to cover the cost. i.e if it cost £200 per pitch, the pitch price could be reduced by about £3.70 to £5.70!

If an owner of a site open only in the summer months is charging a fair price for electricity, e.g. £1 to £2 per day, certainly not more, then I would accept there is not a great incentive to install meters. However the owner is leaving himself open to those who abuse the fixed pitch prices and use much more than an average consumption.

Vanners, whether motorhome or caravan owners, are increasingly using electrical appliances because there is no extra charge for excessive consumption. There is now the all electric van and we have all seen the empty awning with an electric heater going full blast. Electricity consumption on sites has risen steeply, site owners have little choice but to increase pitch charges to cover excessive use. I believe it is time to meter pitches to bring down the ever increasing pitch charges. There is no doubt in my mind this will encourage less consumption, be fairer on those who have taken steps to reduce their consumption and allow site owners better control of their costs. _

Can you add more weight to the above argument with first hand knowledge or even refute some or all of it?

peedee


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## rotorywing

The first two reviews of this site backs up your recommendation for metering
http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/sites/reviews.asp?revid=9215

Martin


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## HermanHymer

Have you ever thought about getting a dog?


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## autostratus

HermanHymer said:


> Have you ever thought about getting a dog?


I don't understand this post.
Are you a representative of your local animal rescue charity or is there some other underlying message here.
It's certainly not on topic.


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## bognormike

agree wholeheartedly Peedee. I've only come across one site in the Uk with metered electricity, and that is a CS near Thame. He had got fed up with people running allsorts of electrical equipment, so had it set up for metering. I know the municipal site at Ghent has it, you pay for what you use. The problem is the capital cost involved, but if it's done at the same time as the installation it should not be too much more.


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## coppo

I,ve voted yes although hardly use any EHU these days.

If it does cost around £200 a pitch to install EHU then I think that metered pitches will not catch on as money will be lost by site owners.

The question would be. Would site owners have the ability to set the metered charges at what they want or would they have to use a certain/set tariff?

Paul.


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## Rosbotham

Unless they got themselves a license, they'd be limited to charge exactly what they pay.

Would the meter be done by coins, prepay card, or someone reading the meter? 

If the first or last, then there's additional costs in emptying /reading the meter. 

If prepay, then it would represent inconvenience for those visiting as they'd either need to buy a card in excess of what they thought their usage would be, or would have to seek out the site owner to get a refund on unused credit. Certainly as a site user, I'd be put off by that and probably opt for a site that's all-inclusive, given the money involved for electricity usage adds up to all of £1.50 a night. This is on the same basis that I avoid sites with a coin slot for the shower : it's just penny pinching and inconvenient. Others may differ, but the key equation for the site owner is how many visitors like me they lose, versus how many are attracted by having a decorative EHU in the corner of the pitch.

The costs researched by Peedee, although interesting, are largely irrelevant as they make the mistake of assuming that the price of any goods/service is in any way related to the cost of provision, versus really being determined by what the market is prepared to pay.  However, leaving this to one side, the numbers seem to major on equipment cost, leaving aside the installation costs, using qualified electricians, maintenance costs of getting said electrician out to regularly test integrity etc. I'd be surprised if a 5 van site in the wilds of the country would persuade an electrician out for less than a couple of hours work, so that's prob of the order of another £20/pitch/year that's not factored in.


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## Sideways86

*hi*

All the german sites we stayed on recently were metered and bills were very fair indeed


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## bigbazza

I don't think they will install metered pitches in general.
They currently charge X amount per day which in most instances will create a good profit. They actually control your usage by setting the fuse rating to a figure which the fee covers.
If they meter pitches then they are only allowed to sell the electricity at a very slight margin.
I think they prefer the current system with no limit on the price they charge for the facility.


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## peedee

Rosbotham said:


> Unless they got themselves a license, they'd be limited to charge exactly what they pay.


Agree



> Would the meter be done by coins, prepay card, or someone reading the meter?
> 
> If the first or last, then there's additional costs in emptying /reading the meter.
> 
> If prepay, then it would represent inconvenience for those visiting as they'd either need to buy a card in excess of what they thought their usage would be, or would have to seek out the site owner to get a refund on unused credit. Certainly as a site user, I'd be put off by that and probably opt for a site that's all-inclusive, given the money involved for electricity usage adds up to all of £1.50 a night. This is on the same basis that I avoid sites with a coin slot for the shower : it's just penny pinching and inconvenient. Others may differ, but the key equation for the site owner is how many visitors like me they lose, versus how many are attracted by having a decorative EHU in the corner of the pitch.


Card meters would be the sensible route to take. The ones I have used, you buy a card on arrival, they come in £2 £5 £10 values, the card is inserted in the meter and the value is transferred onto the meter and the card invalidated. The meter shows exactly how much credit you have on a read out and it is easy to see on a daily basis, if so desired, how much you have used and how much credit you have left. There were no refunds.

On the site I stayed at for 9 nights, the pitch fee was £8 and I bought a £10 card and when I left there was 65p credit left on the meter. The per night cost worked out nearly £4 a night cheaper than the two nearby CLs!



> The costs researched by Peedee, although interesting, are largely irrelevant as they make the mistake of assuming that the price of any goods/service is in any way related to the cost of provision, versus really being determined by what the market is prepared to pay. However, leaving this to one side, the numbers seem to major on equipment cost, leaving aside the installation costs, using qualified electricians, maintenance costs of getting said electrician out to regularly test integrity etc. I'd be surprised if a 5 van site in the wilds of the country would persuade an electrician out for less than a couple of hours work, so that's prob of the order of another £20/pitch/year that's not factored in.


Agree the market does determine the price but note those that fit meters have greater control of their costs and have a competitive edge on those that don't. The cost I quoted included installation, note the cost of a each meter is, at most, £50, but I did not include maintenance which I would have though would be minimal. How often is you house meter maintained? Any checks could be done when the annual electricity check was carried out. Any owner should have already budgeted something for damage/replacements and call outs whether meters were installed or not.

peedee


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## steco1958

Why would any business opt to go down this route !!

Charging a flat fee is so much easier to administer, also they will make a lot more money overall.


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## barryd

We have been on a couple of sites abroad recently where they just give you a key for the EHU box. Surely that would be easier.

On a Sosta the other day you had to buy a plastic chip thing which you inserted into the ehu post to make it work. Simple.

You either paid for EHU or you didnt. Couldnt have cost much.

Just limit it to 3 or 6 amps and then nobody can abuse it anyway.

I agree with Steco. Why would anyone go to the bother of putting in meters but I do agree that it should be an option to have it or not


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## coppo

A few will do it but it will not catch on unless there is a big campaign within the sector, like I said earlier too much money will be lost, its more profitable to incorporate the EHU into the price.


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## Pat-H

I agree currently the price the site can charge for electricity usage is limited to what it costs them by law so there's no profit there. So then the additional cost of the metering and maintenance of that has to be covered in the pitch cost. Why go down that route. Much better for the site owner to have an inclusive fee and actually make more.
Hookup points can be locked or limited to EHU sections only and the supply can easily be limited by breakers to manage excessive usage.


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## peedee

steco1958 said:


> Why would any business opt to go down this route !!


Gives them greater cost control and as a result it should give them a competitive edge in being able to offer cheaper pitch pricing. Take a look at what >this site< is charging and as I have already pointed out the site I stayed on was nearly £4 a night cheaper than the two nearest CLs



> Charging a flat fee is so much easier to administer, also they will make a lot more money overall.


Agree they do which is why with metering they could cut costs. With an inclusive fee they will have difficulty in judging what is the optimum fee to charge. Its a risky strategy, charge too much and they will lose customers, increasingly likely if more sites provide metering, charge too little and they will run at a loss. The Caravan Club lost £4 million in one year due to getting it wrong.

peedee


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## Bill_H

Apart from a coin operated meter, the other options require a member of staff to be on site when you arrive and/or depart.
There are many sites where the owner lives at a distance.
Should you arrive during the evening, there would need to be staff at hand to sell you a card, or should you wish to leave at 7 am, there would need be someone to read your meter and take your money.
Are these £50 meters waterproof, or would all the EHU posts need replacing to accomodate them?
I can see it working on large comercial sites where there are several members of staff, but the cost of a pitch on them is often far outweighed by any saving on electricity useage.


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## peedee

Bill_H said:


> Apart from a coin operated meter, the other options require a member of staff to be on site when you arrive and/or depart.
> There are many sites where the owner lives at a distance.
> Should you arrive during the evening, there would need to be staff at hand to sell you a card, or should you wish to leave at 7 am, there would need be someone to read your meter and take your money.
> Are these £50 meters waterproof, or would all the EHU posts need replacing to accomodate them?
> I can see it working on large comercial sites where there are several members of staff, but the cost of a pitch on them is often far outweighed by any saving on electricity useage.


No you do not need members of staff to be on hand all the time with pre-payment cards which in fact you can obtain from a dispensing machine if one is provided. You certainly do not have to read meters on departure. These meters are also programmable and you can set levels of emergency credit if that should be a requirement. Of course this emergency credit has to be paid for with your next card. It all depends on what policies a site wishes to follow. There is also the alternative of running on your on board facilities (12v and gas) until you can get a card.

The meters are waterproof but I do not know if they can be retrofitted to existing hook up bollards. I would think it not. impossible.

peedee


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## dovtrams

I much prefer the present system, turn up pay your site fees which include EHU enjoy your hassle free stay and leave when you are ready. All the other proposals seem very complicated, imagine the hassle you would get if you run out of electricity half way through one of the soaps, especially if you are somewhere else, ie the local pub.

Life is grand, just leave it that way.

Dave


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## Patrick_Phillips

peedee said:


> No you do not need members of staff to be on hand all the time with pre-payment cards which in fact you can obtain from a dispensing machine if one is provided.


For me that would be a complete turn-away. The last thing I need in the middle of a wet and windy night is to find the leccy has gone off! I would not stay on a site with such a system.
Coin in slot would be a bit better but I still don't want to get up in the night to feed the meter nor do I want to have to calculate how much money to feed the meter with to not run out or over pay.
Many French Municipal sites charge a couple of euro for EHU. I have found they are often quite happy with I don't take EHU. Then we get a day or two with no sun and we ask for the EHU for a day to recharge our batteries. Perhaps there is a way forward along these lines?

Patrick


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## aldra

We have been on quite a few continental sights where you pay for usage

a flat fee but if you go over a charge for electric used you pay for the difference

mostly it seems we go over 8O 8O

not sure why

if we had run the aircon?????


who knows we just pay and move on

Aldra


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## peedee

peedee said:


> Card meters would be the sensible route to take. The ones I have used, you buy a card on arrival, they come in £2 £5 £10 values, the card is inserted in the meter and the value is transferred onto the meter and the card invalidated. *The meter shows exactly how much credit you have on a read out and it is easy to see on a daily basis, if so desired, how much you have used and how much credit you have left. *


 If you run out at an inappropiate time I only think you have yourselves to blame. It is so easy to see what your current credit is and it is worth checking on a daily basis.

Running out is a poor excuse for disliking a fair system.

peedee


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## rod_vw

Come along folks don't we all know that any excuse to charge inflated prices on a British site is the norm! If they could get away with charging for the air we breath they would.

If an Aire like Froncles Halte nautique can charge as little as €1.50 to park and an additional €1.50 for electricity why are we being ripped off in the UK? At that charge there is an attendant on site most of the day and he/she switches the power on for you.
This cost is not unique as the next Aire South on the canal at Vieville charges the same.

Never mind voting for the means of paying for electricity on a site here, vote with your feet and go into mainland Europe.

Rod

PS The last time we paid by meter in Germany the cost was less than €1 for a night.


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## Patrick_Phillips

peedee said:


> If you run out at an inappropiate time I only think you have yourselves to blame. It is so easy to see what your current credit is and it is worth checking on a daily basis.
> 
> Running out is a poor excuse for disliking a fair system.
> 
> peedee


No, Peedee, that is not fair!
Coming on to a strange site, you cannot know how much juice they will give you for a Euro so you would need a readout in kilowatts and you would need to know the cost of a kilowatt. Very, very few campsite owners will bother with that sort of detail.

I don't know how much leccy I will use because there are too many variables. 
Temperature - will the central heating come on? 
Washing and washing up - how much hot water will I use? What was for dinner? 
Will I sleep or will I want the radio, internet or TV half the night?
There are so many more...

We have 250Ah of leisure battery and we have 480 watts of solar, All our lights are LED. All our electrical stuff is 12v. Mostly we draw less than 2 amps but I have tripped a 10 amp EHU a couple of times.

But why would I want to have all that calculation to do when there are places to go and things to see?

No Peedee, I still don't want to a meter alongside my pitch unless I am going to be there for quite a few days...

Patrick


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## peedee

Patrick_Phillips said:


> We have 250Ah of leisure battery and we have 480 watts of solar, All our lights are LED. All our electrical stuff is 12v. Mostly we draw less than 2 amps but I have tripped a 10 amp EHU a couple of times.
> 
> Patrick


Withthat little lot I am surprised you would even bother to have electricity. At least with a meter you have that choice! With a flat rate you don't.
peedee


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## dovtrams

But why would I want to have all that calculation to do when there are places to go and things to see?

Patrick[/quote]

Totally agree.

Dave


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## peedee

:roll: :roll: What calculations do you envisage you have to do?

peedee


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## peedee

Anymore votes?

Thought this, taken from a suppliers web site made interesting reading:



> With the Card Meter, electricity is sold to the consumer using disposable card tokens with prefixed values of £1, £5, £10, £20 & £50. The system encourages a "pay-as-you-go" routine which is both fair and simple to operate. Card tokens can be sold over the counter from various outlets and an optional Vending Machine is also available for out of office hours.
> 
> Resale of Electricity On-site Programming, a customer commented,
> 
> _"Since the introduction of new Ofgem legislation in January 2003 we were keen to ensure that The Group remained within the law by not overcharging our customers. We were therefore seeking a metering solution that would enable us to provide a transparent 'cost pass through system' of reselling our energy. The Prepayment system has enabled us to resell our electricity at the precise current tariff whilst also allowing us to recover additional maintenance costs separately using the fixed weekly 'Service Charge' facility"._
> 
> The Card Operated Meter supplied has a built in time clock that enables Park Operators to recover the Service Charge through the meter in small daily increments; totally separate from the pence per unit tariff.
> 
> Emergency Credit:
> A hand-held Meter Programmer was supplied to each of the parks. The Programmer enables the Park
> Manager to adjust many of the meter's settings including:
> 
> -	reset meter credits and/or debts to zero,
> - add credit to the meter,
> - reset Emergency Credit etc.
> -
> The same programmer can also be used to switch a meter into "free-flow" for compassionate reasons. In order to avoid unnecessary disconnections the meter is equipped with a push-button Emergency Credit facility. The level of Emergency Credit provided can be set by the park operator and any amount of Emergency Credit used is automatically repaid the next time cards are inserted. For additional peace of mind it is also possible to programme the Card Meter with a 'disconnection override facility' in order to guarantee that the power supply will not disconnect out of office hours, even if the credit expires. A RENTAL facility for as little as £2.00 per meter per week including installation can be offered. With RENTAL there are no capital costs incurred whatsoever and the meter is fully guaranteed for the rental term.
> 
> A customer made the point ,
> 
> _"The new Ofgem legislation eliminated whatever margins we were able to negotiate with our electricity supplier. It was therefore no longer financially viable for us to include electricity services within the cost of the holiday, nor could we afford to spend time chasing electricity arrears. We therefore discussed the option of a RENTAL package and I am pleased to say that this has worked tremendously well for us"._


The extra pitch fee, after removing fixed electricity consumption charges, a site owner would have to charge to cover the all inclusive meter RENTAL with a pitch occupancy of 65 percent works out to about 45p per day! So do you still think meters are not a good idea?

peedee


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## CliveMott

Adding individual p;itch meters will yet again add to an increase in cost to the end user - us! The 16A hookup limits load to 4KW and progressively more and more caravans and motorhomes come with a full set of mains heating and cooking capability to take advantage of a hookup. So I vote for having a choice of hookup or no hookup so that those who genuinely do not need it do not have to pay for it. But somehow the infrastructure has to be paid for. Its only logical that those who use the hookups should also pay for its infrastructure.

C.


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## listerdiesel

Interesting subject!

We are fairly independent of EHU's, although we are fully fitted out for them.

We looked at energy usage before we built the trailer/RV and decided that as our Discovery was LPG-fuelled, then we would provide tankage for the trailer as well, so we can fill up the trailer when we fill the car. That fuel runs the fridge, water heater and cooking, so electricity use is really only for battery charging. There is a small 800W microwave as well.

Looking at the majority of EHU users, most are not heavy consumers and only use it for lights and water pumps/charger, so there is probably a dividing line between 'all-electric' modern caravans and the earlier models that would probably struggle to use a kWh of electricity per day.

So, my vote is for no metering, but by all means look at charging if you must, as only those with more modern 'vans are going to use it in my view.

Peter


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## peedee

Clive,
I said in a early post the at least with a meter you have the choice whether to pay for electricity or not! Ok, so you might have to pay 30 to 45p extra for the unused pitch infrastructure but I would imagine that would suit many motorhome owners only staying one or two nights and not wanting pay the current inclusive charges for electricity they do not really need. Prior to 2003 we had that choice.

peedee


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## Twm-Twp

HermanHymer said:


> Have you ever thought about getting a dog?


Made me smile - but not as much as Gillians' very indignant response.


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## robinpompey

*Metered Pitches*

Peedee you must have rivetting talks in your home.


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## Rosbotham

So should we put a coinslot on the toilet door then? I mean, it only needs cleaning if someone's using it so if we use onboard facilities, why should we contribute to that? Maybe variable charge for 1 vs 2s because think of all that toilet roll usage.

And water...shall we meter the tap? I quite often fill up before I go, so why should I pay for the infrastructure to pipe water into the site?

Come on guys, the avatars alongside the user names on this board typically have photos of motorhomes costing bare minimum £20k and sometimes 4 or 5x that. If you're getting 25MPG from your van it's costing you a pound every four miles you drive to/from the site. And we're bothered about paying the odd quid a night extra for the convenience of unmetered electricity? Let's get a sense of proportion...


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## peedee

Paul (rosbotham)
I am surprised you cannot find anything better than that to refute the points I have made for the introduction of what after all would be fairer system for both the consumer and the site owner! Ok so I and others can afford to pay for the inflation busting increases in pitch costs, many cannot. All user are not motorhome owners either, what about the tent and caravan owners?

Sorry I don't want to keep paying for others excessive use of electricity. Evidently nearly 60 percent of MHF members agree with me

peedee


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## robinpompey

Peedee are you a politician (MP)? They misrepresent reality to support their causes. 58% of 110 voters is not nearly 60% of the whole motorhome forum population. Most people, unlike me who is retired, wouldn't have the time read through the amount of writing that you did.


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## Twm-Twp

peedee said:


> Paul (rosbotham) Evidently nearly 60 percent of MHF members agree with me peedee


Don't you mean 60% of the members that could be bothered to vote ??

I voted 'couldn't care' because this really isn't as big an issue for me as it is for you and maybe a few dozen others. That doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion but I think I agree more with Rosbotham viewpoint than I do with yours.

There is another thread going at the moment with a member complaining that he was asked for £10 extra for an EHU. But is this the whole story? What else (if anything) did the extra charge take account of that this member maybe hasn't told us about??

We have often paid quite a few pounds more for a pitch with 'extras'. Very often the extra charge for a grand confort pitch in France for example includes your own water tap and grey waste disposal point and maybe a hard standing as well as leccy. Also, the grand confort pitches are usually much larger and maybe better situated than basic pitches. The point I am trying to make, is that it's very rarely that the extra charge is for an EHU alone.

Edit - PS (for clarity): By basis pitch, I mean a pitch without services.


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## coppo

Well I,m not retired and have found time to read through Peedees excellent report which I applaud.

Think its a great idea and although I don't think many site owners will introduce metered electricity even if a small percentage do then its a starting point.

Well done for taking the time and effort to try and bring this point to the forefront.

I think the main point here as others have said is that site owners would lose money if separate metered pitches were introduced, imagine if it was the other way around and they could earn more from the introduction, the environmental points would certainly be pushed.

Paul.


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## peedee

Twm-Twp said:


> Don't you mean 60% of the members that could be bothered to vote ??
> 
> I voted 'couldn't care' because this really isn't as big an issue for me as it is for you and maybe a few dozen others. That doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion but I think I agree more with Rosbotham viewpoint than I do with yours.


Ooops yes I did mean 60 percent of those that had bothered to vote. Statistically I have no idea how many voters you need to reflect a populations views. Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

Its been a issue or rather a principle with me ever since they changed the law. This law was introduced to stop profiteering on the resale of electricity. Clearly it is not controlling this on many campsites.

peedee


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## 747

Site owners can buy meters for £25 (from a similar t6hread on another forum). Why would they when they can squeeze more money out of campers without an outlay.

Nobody notices the cost of electricity on a daily basis. just imagine that you were parked up for one year with a single 16 amp supply (I am being generous to the campsites as they only give you 10 amps at best). Work out the cost. You will find it is more than you pay at home for your Gas AND Electricity.

I do not know which is worst. The Site owners or the Authorities who allow them to get away with what is basically Fraud.

I only use regular sites once a Crab season, I am never on a hook up except on my drive. If you lot are happy with the status quo and I am not involved, why should I care if you have more money than sense. :lol:


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## PennyandDerek

This topic brilliantly highlights the different ways in which motorhomers use their vans.

Those that are nomadic(like ourselves) vote with our 'feet'; choosing non EHU pitches, a lay-by, an inverter whilst the engine is running and a good solid Anglo-Saxon two-fingered approach to the rip-off merchants with their ridiculous electricity charges.

Others, who choose to use their vans more as caravans/mobile homes/holiday cottages, etc. see a constant electricity supply as the norm. They have the advantage of overall discounts(4 nights for the cost of 3, 14 for 10, etc.) and are prepared to pay extra for the convenience of a continuous 4kw. 
As Clive pointed out, the motorhome market is already pandering to this second group.

Peedee argued that a campsite would see an overall advantage by having a £4 'discount' from it's neighbour. In reality, the business model dictates that if you can garner your neighbour's custom by a £2 'discount' you can make an extra £2 profit ppn. The canny site owner would, of course, remain lawful by adding this to the pitch price, not the electricity. But why go to all that trouble? The law of diminishing returns applies.

This 'split' in our community lies at the heart of a lot of the perceived, and real, problems that we motorhomers encounter. Thus, it is also at the heart of a lot of the topics on the various forums and in our publications.
Parking, the height-fight, non-representation, and dare I say it.........electricity charges........, and lots, lots more will keep MHF(and others) going forever.

Derek


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## dorricc

IMO metered supplies would be a completely unnecessary complication. Personally I'm happy to pay a few quid extra for elec when I need it, or wild-camp when I don't.

Can't see that it makes any sense for a campsite to pay the installation and servicing costs in the interests of 'fairness' either. And the costs inevitably get passed on to the customer (ie all of us) if the business is to function.

Blimey, if we take this argument to its logical conclusion we'll be paying for metered water, metered drainage, rubbish disposal by the cubic foot, etc etc. Think of all those motorhome disposal points that caravanners don't use, maybe we should pay a surcharge to use them!

Nothing wrong with a flat rate, when the majority of the cost is in the infrastructure not the supply. Toronto transit system for example (mix of subway, streetcars and buses) has a fixed fare for every journey, irrespective of distance. Works great.


----------



## peedee

bump for more votes please.

peedee


----------



## Zebedee

What are you intending to do with the results of the poll PD?

I can't see any site owner taking the slightest notice of your/our suggestions unless it is going to bring in *more *money for them. :roll:

Dave


----------



## rosalan

As several have already observed, it aint going to happen. Too much extra installation costs and loss of initial revenue. Unless some future legislation determines that we should not pay for what we have not received or the demand for much higher amperage is realised.
When and where I have been fortunate to pay for metered electricity I have been surprised at the low charges, even in Spain where it can be highly priced in some places.
Alan


----------



## coppo

Regardless on what Peedee does with the poll I would have expected a lot more than a 100ish votes on a motorhome forum about this issue.

I can't work out if people don't care or if Peedee hasn't bumped it to the top enough so more can see it.  

Get bumping Peedee.

Paul.


----------



## Zebedee

Hi Paul

I don't think the lack of votes is because people don't care.

I think it's one of those questions where it's easy to agree with both sides of the argument. Too many variables to come down categorically with a unilateral response.

Dave


----------



## robinpompey

Zebedee, I think you are being too generous. People arn't interested in changing things that work. If you are really worried about a couple of pence a day for unmetered electricity is this type of holidaying really for you.


----------



## 747

robinpompey said:


> Zebedee, I think you are being too generous. People arn't interested in changing things that work. If you are really worried about *a couple of pence a day *for unmetered electricity is this type of holidaying really for you.


It works out at a hell of a lot more than a couple of pence. 8O


----------



## coppo

747 said:


> robinpompey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Zebedee, I think you are being too generous. People arn't interested in changing things that work. If you are really worried about *a couple of pence a day *for unmetered electricity is this type of holidaying really for you.
> 
> 
> 
> It works out at a hell of a lot more than a couple of pence. 8O
Click to expand...

Never a truer word spoke, a couple of pence :? :roll:


----------



## coppo

Zebedee said:


> Hi Paul
> 
> I don't think the lack of votes is because people don't care.
> 
> I think it's one of those questions where it's easy to agree with both sides of the argument. Too many variables to come down categorically with a unilateral response.
> 
> Dave


See what you mean Dave, but even so I would have expected many more votes on a motorhome forum regardless of how people voted, for, against or don't care.

Paul.


----------



## CliveMott

Then again we always have the final choice. If we don,t like a camp site because it is inclusive leccy then don,t use that site.

The choice of hookup or no hookup is what I believe is fair. Charging per KWH for a few days stay with a 4KW cap on demand is realistically not worth fitting meters. If the site was occupied by semi-permanent park homes then that is different. After all, camp sites are run as a business, not a charity. Unless peedee and friends are going to start a camp site on that basis?

C.


----------



## peedee

CliveMott said:


> Then again we always have the final choice. If we don,t like a camp site because it is inclusive leccy then don,t use that site.
> 
> The choice of hookup or no hookup is what I believe is fair. Charging per KWH for a few days stay with a 4KW cap on demand is realistically not worth fitting meters.
> C.


Unfortunately there are not too many equipped with meters as yet but I cannot disagree with any of the above.

All new sites should definitely be equipped with meters and if I was starting one I would do so. The extra cost of fitting these for better cost control on a new build cannot be worth worrying about.

peedee


----------



## peedee

Zebedee said:


> What are you intending to do with the results of the poll PD?
> 
> I can't see any site owner taking the slightest notice of your/our suggestions unless it is going to bring in *more *money for them. :roll:
> 
> Dave


Dunno what I will do with them yet, it does give an indication of van owners feelings though. However, I would like to see more interest taken in the subject and with more votes I would be happy to quote the results to others.

At least two site owners have admitted to looking into it further as a result of my posting. The attraction for them is greater control of costs. This may not bring in more customers but would help with profits from existing customers with what is actually consumed being fully paid for. However they could not justify the costs for their current pitch occupancy. Disappointing, but a least they looked into it. The outcome for others, especially larger sites may not be the same.

Did I hear there are more electricity price increases in the pipe line? I thought I heard the figure of 9 percent? This can only mean more pitch price increase for sites without metering while those who have already equipped with meters can maintain their current prices or make much smaller increases to cover other site costs.

peedee


----------



## Rosbotham

peedee said:


> Did I hear there are more electricity price increases in the pipe line? I thought I heard the figure of 9 percent? This can only mean more pitch price increase for sites without metering while those who have already equipped with meters can maintain their current prices or make much smaller increases to cover other site costs.
> 
> peedee


I'd seen that, but not sure I believe it. Just had my renewal through. The fixed price I've been quoted is 13% less than the variable. That tells me they expect prices to fall over the next year, not rise.


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## eddievanbitz

Well! 

Been here before with this one.

I do own a site, one that wins lots of awards, and many people that have posted on this thread have stayed at.

We opened in 2005 and gave the idea of metering a lot of thought and rejected it.

What happens when you arrive after hours? at present, you name will be written up on a big board outside the office with your pitch number. How will you get electric, or do you expect not to have hook up until the morning?

Card system for out of hours? that means a dispenser. That will quickly get robbed for the cash inside it. 

How do you stop people unplugging your van whilst your out for the day and then plugging their van in, free for them as you pay.

Who reads the meters and when? You want to leave early so how do you leave before the campsite office is open? Pay the night before and leave your van unplugged over night? How does the site owner know that you won't plug back in and use electric overnight? Would you be happy to have your electricity "shut down" to prevent this happening.

It is blowing a gale and peeing down with rain, and you have to walk over to the campsite office to give the warden the reading/buy a card/ get a token so instead you sit with no electric waiting for the rain to stop thinking how good progress is :roll: 

Nope sorry, I cannot see any advantage to this, and when we have put people on meters in the past to evaluate the process the end result is that our customers would have had to pay a lot more that they expected as most people simply don't realise how much power they use.

I simply do not understand the on going argument about pitches and facilities. If you don't like a sites policy on electric and pitches don't stay there. Why try to shape things so they look Rosy looking out through your glasses. 

Here is a service, this is what you get, and your right as a customer is to take it or leave it. Change it isn't an available option.

I stayed on a site in the South France a couple of weeks ago. 16amp electric, mains water, and grey and black drainage Excellent! I happily used everything and thoroughly enjoyed doing so.

We have very few customers who don't want or use the electric, and it is one of the most asked questions when people enquire about the site "Does the pitch have electric?"

Ultimately I believe that if a site charges a fair pitch fee, then how that cost is made up it is immaterial.

I know that if we started allowing people a "menu" system not to pay for things they don't use it would become a"bun fight" 

"I didn't use the hot water / washing up area / toilets / showers / electric / chemical dump / park on the grass / gravel / I fell asleep early and didn't use the dusk to dawn security lights :lol:

Vote with your feet not your forum lol

Eddie


----------



## Bagshanty

we stayed on a wohnmobilstellplatz some years ago ( a big one) that offered hook up with a small meter that plugged in at the connection. Didn't need it so have no details. (Also had wifi)


----------



## peedee

eddievanbitz said:


> Well!
> 
> Been here before with this one.
> 
> I do own a site, one that wins lots of awards, and many people that have posted on this thread have stayed at.
> 
> We opened in 2005 and gave the idea of metering a lot of thought and rejected it.
> 
> Eddie


Thanks for your input Eddie. Your site is a very good one and charges a fair price for the facilities you have. I have no problem using it, with or without meters.

I don't agree with all you say, I didn't over toads either, but do appreciate it does not fit with the way you operate. Every owner is entitled to run their site how they think best and if that is how you see it, fair enough.

peedee


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## robinpompey

I have just had a quick look at the the thread but it seems to me that there are more to the capital expenditure than first thought. Peedee is now saying that you can have dispensing machines for the cards to be used. If you have a seperate charge for the electricity will people then expect, and should they expect, to have unlimited supply. Some sites supply is so small that you cannot have two appliances on at one time. I would expect if the electricity was a seperate charge to be able to use what I want. This then leads on to what about the existing structure, would camp site owners have to upgrade their wiring to increase the new load.

What seemed a simple suggestion from Peedee is in fact a complicated matter that includes many facets; law, capital expenditure, people usage of the sites. This is going to make any change expensive and the owner will not want it to take years to recoup any outlay for dispensers, changes to supply etc.

I use hookups but I do not use heaters or items that have large consumption and I do not find it expensive. Having the service available is more important to me.


----------



## peedee

A good point robinpompey. The whole point of meters is self regulation to discourage excessive use and to ensure what is used is paid for. It has been suggested that as a means of enforced regulation, sites could downrate their electricity supplies, e.g. 16 amp to 6 amp. I really don't think that is practical, but if a site already limits the electricity supply, there does not seem to be much point in fitting meters as abuse is unlikely.

peedee


----------



## Pat-H

Limiting the supply current with an acessible breaker the end user can reset is a simple method to regulate excessive usage.
I agree the practical implications of a metered supply makes the install and operational costs higher and the experience for the camper more complex and limiting and camping is already drifting away from the "easy" experience it used to be.

I also agree that end users can vote with their feet on the services and charges offered and that's just what we do. We have lcoal sites that are very nice but the hook up excess is just too much and we have found less local sites that are just as nice withs ensible pricing and we go there.


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## 1943

robinpompey said:


> Zebedee, I think you are being too generous. People arn't interested in changing things that work. If you are really worried about a couple of pence a day for unmetered electricity is this type of holidaying really for you.


Most of the sites I see that "couple of pence" a day is around £5. Thatis much too much in my opinion.

Bob


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## johnthompson

I have just gone onto a metered pitch. First time on hookup since May.

The meter is pre loaded by the site owner who takes the reading when the pitch is vacated.

From 17:00 yesterday to 08:30 today our consumption was £0.45 Yes under 50p with an Electric kettle, Sky Box and water heater on mains plus battery charging and two computers.

I say meter every time.

John


----------



## johnthompson

I have just gone onto a metered pitch. First time on hookup since May.

The meter is pre loaded by the site owner who takes the reading when the pitch is vacated.

From 17:00 yesterday to 08:30 today our consumption was £0.45 Yes under 50p with an Electric kettle, Sky Box and water heater on mains plus battery charging and two computers.

I say meter every time.

John


----------



## eddievanbitz

Thanks for your comments PeeDee! To be fair PeeDee did make me re think about charging for Toads :lol: So we can be persuaded.

I do think though that the better sites that are full all the time would simply do some cosmetic maths and we would all end up paying more.

Baltic Wharf in Bristol as an example. We sat down with some friends to book it some time this year with a view to seeing a show, nice meal etc.

It's full! we got to September and gave up and this was in the last Christmas Holiday break! They would simply reduce the pitch fee a little, charge us £3 a night for electric and then put the price of the pitch back up next year and still be full. The site runs a lottery for places when the Tall Ships event is on.

Whether this is morally right or wrong I don't want to argue, as I am sure the more profitable sites Like Abbey Wood in London and Baltic Wharf subsidise some of the nice sites in more rural places that are not so profitable but are maintained to a good standard anyway, I am just making the point that I suspect that the overall cost of sites would dip and and then rise back to where they are now, and we would still have to pay for electric.

And I for one would, even knowing this, happily pay the extra to stay at places like Baltic Wharf or Abbey Wood.

The only way that metered electricity would work would be to have a radio link direct to the office, a credit card blank taken in advance (as in a hotel against the use of a Mini bar) and then payment up front when booking in.

So I arrive, my pitch is paid for and I leave. The staff would calculate my usage and charge it against my card details held on a secure server.

This of course would entail extra work for the staff so a small service charge would be levied by some, and of course would be useless to those that don't like leaving their details all over the place.

And of course the costs would rise to pay for the new equipment.

And the only problem then would be stopping the man (or woman) on the adjacent site (lets be nice) "borrowing" your electric whilst your out for the day as "you were out, so weren't using it" and "Its for his chair!" (as if either are reasonable excuses to steal) 

I still like the turn up pay a set fee that you know up front and plug in if you want it or not if you don't. It's included so no need for anyone to steal it or for anyone to turn it off, or it not be available when you want it!

Also, as many keep forgetting, we cannot resell electricity at a profit, it is illegal, so the costs of buying the equipment, having it installed, keeping it maintained and checked would be put onto the basic pitch fee, so the reduction would be less than some think anyway!


----------



## peedee

eddievanbitz said:


> I do think though that the better sites that are full all the time would simply do some cosmetic maths and we would all end up paying more.


I agree this is a possibility but competition should control this.

peedee


----------



## Zebedee

A related thought that might be of interest Peedee.

When we went to Ireland we were quite put out at first to find that everything was an "_extra_" on the campsites. A token for this, a coin in the slot for that . . . even hot water for washing up on some sites.

Thinking about it though, we decided that (_in principle_) it was not a bad system because it gave the option to pay for only those services you used. _(The coin in the slot meters were more convenient than tokens for the reasons given by Mr Van Bitz.)_

The only snag was the basic price of the campsites - which were pretty hefty *before *any extras had been added in. The danger (to the consumer) with any system which relies upon a basic price plus add-ons, is when the basic price is *high enough to include the extras* . . . but they still have to be added on if you want them.

Conclusion - there isn't a simple answer, so vote with your feet. :roll: If enough people did that (_which they won't of course_!) market forces would sort things out in most cases.

Dave


----------



## eddievanbitz

Zebedee said:


> A related thought that might be of interest Peedee.
> 
> When we went to Ireland we were quite put out at first to find that everything was an "_extra_" on the campsites. A token for this, a coin in the slot for that . . . even hot water for washing up on some sites.
> 
> Thinking about it though, we decided that (_in principle_) it was not a bad system because it gave the option to pay for only those services you used. _(The coin in the slot meters were more convenient than tokens for the reasons given by Mr Van Bitz.)_
> 
> The only snag was the basic price of the campsites - which were pretty hefty *before *any extras had been added in. The danger (to the consumer) with any system which relies upon a basic price plus add-ons, is when the basic price is *high enough to include the extras* . . . but they still have to be added on if you want them.
> 
> Conclusion - there isn't a simple answer, so vote with your feet. :roll: If enough people did that (_which they won't of course_!) market forces would sort things out in most cases.
> 
> Dave


LOL Hi Dave

Your too young to remember having to pay for hot water in the shower blocks! Getting rid of such nonsense was a move forward!

We have to have tokens for our laundry room as the we had some kind person rip the coin meters off the wall causing about £400 of damage and loads of aggravation for all for about £50 of cash!

I have never seen anything in life reduce is price in real terms due to approaching it from a different angle.

I still firmly believe that within two or three years the basic price will be back to where it is now plus a hefty charge for the extras.

As for competition keeping things in balance? I don't see that either. More and more sites are switching over to the lucrative mobile home business making less pitches available for us anyway.

I have just written trying to get a booking on a site in the South of France that we have been to before. We want as a group four super pitches and we are being quoted £100 per night per pitch and we have been placed on a waiting list for 2013!

I suspect that this is a case of "Don't mend what isn't broken" :lol:

Good thread and posts though!

Eddie


----------



## Zebedee

eddievanbitz said:


> Your too young to remember having to pay for hot water in the shower blocks! Getting rid of such nonsense was a move forward! Eddie


What hot water in the shower blocks Eddie!! 8O

When we started camping on the Continent most sites that we could afford didn't have hot water for any purpose. At one Camping a la Ferme I remember, the shower was a hosepipe in one corner of the field. 8O

None of this bothers us at all these days since we have our own perfectly good facilities on board, so it's really just a matter of what's the most convenient at the time. Even if the campsite loos are "By Appointment" (_like yours_! :wink: ) we still piddle in the Thetford if it's hissing down with rain! :lol:

Dave


----------



## Zozzer

dorricc said:


> IMO metered supplies would be a completely unnecessary complication. Personally I'm happy to pay a few quid extra for elec when I need it, or wild-camp when I don't.
> 
> Can't see that it makes any sense for a campsite to pay the installation and servicing costs in the interests of 'fairness' either. And the costs inevitably get passed on to the customer (ie all of us) if the business is to function.
> 
> Blimey, if we take this argument to its logical conclusion we'll be paying for metered water, metered drainage, rubbish disposal by the cubic foot, etc etc. Think of all those motorhome disposal points that caravanners don't use, maybe we should pay a surcharge to use them!


I've no problem with paying my way in life, but I do resent having to pay for other peoples services. So yes, electricity, water, drainage and rubbish should all be metered. Maybe it's time that the law was changed to allow people offer no frills aires / stellplaetz / sosta type facilities.


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## eddievanbitz

Zozzer said:


> Maybe it's time that the law was changed to allow people offer no frills aires / stellplaetz / sosta type facilities.


The law doesn't need to be changed to allow people offer no frills aires / stellplaetz / sosta type facilities.

The reality is that the majority of campers don't want them which is why so many CL owners have been forced into providing extra facilities to keep their CL's up to date.

Just stay on sites that suit your pocket or your idealogical beliefs and veto those that offer you facilities you don't want!

Eddie


----------



## Twm-Twp

Zozzer said:


> I've no problem with paying my way in life, but I do resent having to pay for other peoples services. So yes, electricity, water, drainage and rubbish should all be metered. Maybe it's time that the law was changed.


So you won't be a big fan of the NHS ..... or our social security system then .... and that's just for starters !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## CliveMott

Just come off a site (classed as an aire) in Alsace run by Germans. Will not go there again but for several reasons. However every pitch was marked and had designated hookup. You entered your bank card details at each hookup to buy KWH credits. 0.5 EU/KWH. The previous occupants of the adjacent pitch left leaving 0.7 KWH unused. Nothing to stop anybody swapping plugs around.
What the heck did that infrastructure cost I wonder?

Oh the other reasons we will not go to this aire again
10EU per night (Stenay is 7 EU including hookup, showers etc. inc.
Empty loo EU3 and you had to climb a ladder to get to the top of the holding tank!
100l water EU2.5

Very friendly
came from Cologne
Nice marina

But NO.


----------



## Zozzer

Twm-Twp said:


> Zozzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've no problem with paying my way in life, but I do resent having to pay for other peoples services. So yes, electricity, water, drainage and rubbish should all be metered. Maybe it's time that the law was changed.
> 
> 
> 
> So you won't be a big fan of the NHS ..... or our social security system then .... and that's just for starters !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Now which campsite is run by the NHS ?


----------



## Twm-Twp

Now which campsite is run by the NHS ?[/quote]

Now let me think ....... just so you can understand, how can I explain what I meant in words of less than three syllables? ....... no, I don't think I'll bother........I'd only be wasting my time !!!


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## Agilityman

I voted for meters.
It's the way it should be.
Before 2003 you could chose any pitch and elect to use electricity or not as Electricity was an itemised price. After 2003 you couldn't charge for electricity, so the 'serviced pitch' came into being. Now you can't use any pitch if you don't want Electricity.
All because the idiots in OFWATT can't see that the law wasn't intended for touring pitches on campsites.

The one point I haven't seen raised is the disparity between Electricity usage. Why should someone using Electricity for Fridge and Battery charger only pay the same as a Caravan with a heater going 24/7 in their awning. I see this happening quite often.


----------



## Techno100

I've not voted and I don't want to read the whole thread although I've read a little.
For my tuppence worth.
A cl near me charges £12 per night plus metered electric, personally I think £12 for a cl is ridiculous especially with electric not included.
I realise there must have been a big investment to facilitate this and this is being charged to everyone whether they use electric or not.

I've stayed in Winter and used £2.80 in 24hrs with oil filled radiator on full and everything else and the price is consistent with electricity prices without profiting.
Having just typed that I guess I would say no to metered electric :? It still costs either way so I guess for the benefit of the greater good I will vote no.


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## Techno100

I think 5 or 6 squid with no electric at all floats my boat :lol:


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## peedee

Another 9 percent on electricity must mean increased pitch fees for those without meters.  

peedee


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## 113016

Again as above, I have not read the whole thread but yes I agree with metered electricity.
As we mainly wild and use aires, we are well geared up to use gas appliances and would use very little electricity.
We have even witnessed very selfish over use of electricity and even seen people with two hook up leads going into the electricity posts, limiting the available pitches with electricity for new arrivals.
I vote yes to metering


----------



## HermanHymer

*Saw something in the forest yesterday - was that YOU??!!*



Zebedee said:


> eddievanbitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your too young to remember having to pay for hot water in the shower blocks! Getting rid of such nonsense was a move forward! Eddie
> 
> 
> 
> What hot water in the shower blocks Eddie!! 8O
> 
> Even if the campsite loos are "By Appointment" (_like yours_! :wink: ) we still piddle in the Thetford if it's hissing down with rain! :lol:
> 
> Dave
Click to expand...

As I travelled from one end of the forest to the other in 1st gear yesterday I saw something shaking in the trees.. was that you? Off topic i know, but now that work is starting on widening this road in winter 2014, this road is going to be double hell for the next five years! Be warned!
Viv

PS Back on topic - enterprising business owners will (usually) charge the most they can squeeze out of the paying public, so charge elec or not? The question is academic! Don't worry your heads about it, is my advice. Keep your eyes on the beautiful landscape and keep sipping.


----------



## oldun

My real problem with metered electricity is who pay the cost of installation and maintenance which will be quite high? How is the charge assessed - manually or by computer - again costly>?

If this cost cannot be added as a fixed charge to the metered costs then it will be added as a charge to all users via the site fee.

This means that all non users will subsidize the electricity user.

So it strikes me that meter or not there will always be winners and users.


----------



## dally1

We've had nothing but bad experiences in Germany with metered electric so I would be dead set against it.

1st experience was during one February at Munster. Freezing cold so heating on and so on. Luckily we only stayed 2 nights and the cost of electric alone was 18 euros per night but of course we didn't discover this till it was time to leave. I don't believe that a motorhome can use that amount of electricity in 24 hours, coupled with the fact that rates vary from site to site which makes it appear that there is no legislation, smacks of profiteering in my opinion. 

Subsequent experiences have found us using the metered hook ups for fridge and charger but still it always works out at 4.50 euros a day. Our house doesn't average that per day.

I think if it came in over here, firstly, there wouldn't be a reduction in site fees why would they? the system needs to be paid for, that would be down to us. Then the price of the electric on top, no thanks. I also think that as time goes on there will be ways invented to overcharge for the supply. Step backwards in my humble opinion.


----------



## stevethebeekeeper

I fall in to the don't care bracket. With the panels on the roof if I do not like the price I am being charged then I do not hook up.


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## peedee

dally1 said:


> I also think that as time goes on there will be ways invented to overcharge for the supply. Step backwards in my humble opinion.


How do you know you are not being overcharged already? You don't because the cost is built into the pitch price.

I have used meters in this country where there is legislation covering profiteering and I have paid under one pound a day. Work it out for yourself at 12 to 14p a unit.

peedee


----------



## goldi

Morning folks,

Last year I stayed on a site in Spain and because of the previous years near bancruptcy they had installed metered use, you were allowed a certain amount and then over that you paid for, which I thought was very fair. the useage came up in the office on their computer.

norm


----------



## HarleyDave

Grath said:


> ...
> We have even witnessed very selfish over use of electricity and even seen people with two hook up leads going into the electricity posts, limiting the available pitches with electricity for new arrivals...


But surely if you pulled into the pitch where the neighbour had plugged into "your" outlet, you would just ask/tell him to unplug??

I would - And I have considered using 2 leads when the supply is limited to a measly 3 amps or whatever

Cheers

Dave


----------



## dally1

peedee said:


> dally1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also think that as time goes on there will be ways invented to overcharge for the supply. Step backwards in my humble opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know you are not being overcharged already? You don't because the cost is built into the pitch price.
> 
> I have used meters in this country where there is legislation covering profiteering and I have paid under one pound a day. Work it out for yourself at 12 to 14p a unit.
> 
> peedee
Click to expand...

I'm sure I am being overcharged for electric now but I like the all in one price. Before I visit a site I can decide weather I believe it's value for money or not and make my decision. With a meter I can only guess at the final price.

I can't see a time when metered electric will mean a saving on a nights stay. For instance, lets say a site charges £18 a night and in that he's factored £3 a night for electric. Is it likely that he will reduce his night rate to £15 and charge electric per usage. Using the example you used of metered electric at under £1 then that site rate will be under £16. Call me a cynic but I don't think it will ever happen.


----------



## johnthompson

The CL site we used that was metered has stopped using them.

1. Customers refused to come when they found the EHU was metered.

2. It turned out to be too tying as he had to be onsite all of the time to provide top up cards.

3. To get around this he preloaded the meter but still had to read it when people arrived and again just as they were leaving.

He has now just loaded the meters and charges a flat rate for the site and EHU.

I was using about 50p per day but others were well over £5 for 24 hours. Now there is a flat rate and we all pay for the high usage users again. It frees him up to look after his business and his and his wife's health.

He now charges £12 per night before it was £10 Plus EHU. Another site CS I use charges £12 summer but £15 winter including EHU.


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## eddievanbitz

All of the "pro" argument is academic. The majority of the UK customers (people that use sites) want hook up. 

The least hassle for customers, campsite owners and staff is "included" in the basic pitch fee. anything that needs money in is liable to be broken into meaning downtime for all.

Other than that access to electricity is dependent on campsite office hours. Inconvenient in the extreme if you wish to arrive late or leave early. 

There is no advantage in it to the site owners, the disadvantage is cost and the additional admin. It will not bring extra business to the site and we, like most decent sites are more than happy with our occupancy rate as it is.

More and more sites are turning over to holiday villages with row after row of privately and rented statics homes. CL's are becoming more and more expensive.

Regarding the real cost of electricity we loose on this in the Winter and gain in the Summer I know, we pay the bills.

Good thread so long as kept in perspective, it wont happen

Eddie


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## Brock

I can't see me saving any money if we moved to metered electricity even though we use very little.

According to my domestic electricity provider, 39p of every pound I pay it relates to the electricity used, 4p is profit, and the rest is for infrastructure, compliance with legislation, and maintenance/ administration. Because everyone contributes to the overall costs other than the electricity used, the cost per household is reduced.

If this approach is adopted by sites, then the best we could hope for is a reduction of 39% in site fees relating to the use of electricity. 

However, if the 100% of costs is passed on to users only, then their costs will rocket and they will complain about having paid large sums of money to the motorhome manufacturers to provide electrical equipment they can no longer afford to use. Or they can invest in other ways of generating power in their motorhome. Or do without. It might curtail the greed of those who use as much electricity as they can because, "We paid for it." 

The Caravan Club has c375,000 family members, c 1 million people. In 2009 The Club’s expenditure on electricity was £4 million. That's £4 per person per annum, £10.67 per membership. The savings are not going to buy me and the missus an extra battery or another cylinder of gas.

There is never a fair way to provide a service. Some customers will win, some lose. We've created this monster by buying caravans and motorhomes that rely on mains electricity rather than demanding equipment that increases our self sufficiency. "It's our own fault" if you are in the meter camp and "We've created a benefit for ourselves" if you are in the keep meters camp.


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## listerdiesel

The argument goes on....   

Brock's statement probably sums it up:

"There is never a fair way to provide a service. Some customers will win, some lose. We've created this monster by buying caravans and motorhomes that rely on mains electricity rather than demanding equipment that increases our self sufficiency. "It's our own fault" if you are in the meter camp and "We've created a benefit for ourselves" if you are in the keep meters camp."

Self-sufficiency is the way to go, as nothing is going to get cheaper.

Peter


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## cabby

I think that as Caravans are used on campsites more than Motorhomes the answer is obviously that inclusive pricing will remain.
In the summertime when I can use my solar panel to charge the batteries I do not need EHU. But I have to point out that the only mains equipment that we have is the EHU charger and an oil filled radiator, all else is either gas or 12v. So we enjoy the Aires in France or the municipal with a choice on electric.
The answer really to this question is to push for a set up of Aires in the UK. 

cabby


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## Glasandra

I voted for not metering, but having just read a thread in a campsite forum I'm beginning to wonder. 

On there someone was asking how to heat a 3 pod 9 man tent overnight in October using electric. Some one suggested 3 oil filled radiators left on all night! 

Other 'tenters' were listing what they took with them - electric hobs, microwaves, mini cookers, fridges, toasters, kettles, bbqs, griddles, blankets, tvs as well as numerous heaters - I'm surprised some of them didn't blow the site fuses, never mind the hook up ones. 

We only use electric for a small oil filled radiator that is on low for a couple of hours at the most and the fridge. The rest of our stuff is gas or diesel powered. 

I'm wondering now if we are very much subsidising others who are, to me, taking the mickey. Don't get me wrong - I still love camping under canvas - it's something different that you can't beat in certain situations, and I have been camping in snow at Easter with the right equipment - but I've never come across a tent that is draughtproof enough to be economically heated by an electric heater (or three). 

If what I'm reading is true then I have sympathy with campsite owners who feel the need to charge top whack for electric hookups and think I might be turning to the 'metering is good' camp.


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## eddievanbitz

cabby said:


> The answer really to this question is to push for a set up of Aires in the UK. cabby


It would be great I genuinely mean that as I love my motorhome and using it in France is soooo much easier

However, France does have a lot more land than we do and consequently I would suspect that land is cheaper

Eddie


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## 747

It is extremely rare that I use a campsite, apart from Temporary Holiday Sites, so I have no opinion either way.

BUT

If pressure was put on owners to reduce the cost of electricity, they would just find another 'charge' in its place. BTW, I am aiming that jibe mainly at the CC and C&CC. :wink:


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