# Some people - no morals!



## Senator (Apr 24, 2008)

Just returned from a weekend at Fairlight Wood Caravan Club site. 

The site suffered temporary loss of electrical power on a couple of occasions over the weekend. As this involved the main circuit switch tripping out it affected literally the whole site. Eventually traced by the wardens to the Caravan next to us which had a dodgy mains cable, apparently held together one end with masking tape :!: 

The warden lent them a cable and no more issues!

I noticed that the same caravan had a waste container that was a square 10 gallon type commonly used for oil etc with the large screwed lid. They had laid the container on its side with the filler hole at the bottom and the two waste hoses from the caravan going into the filler hole. Therefore all the container would hold is around an inch or so of waste water with the rest flowing over the hole lip and out onto the ground. :evil: When they came to leave the guy picked the container up and emptied the residual over the pitch  

Then left the site and apparently took the wardens cable with him!

Nice!

Mark


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Members of the B`Stard familly.

Dave p


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## wakk44 (Jun 15, 2006)

And there was me thinking that you get guaranteed standards on CC sites. :roll: 

If he did take the electric cable with him the CC should have his details if they want to get it back,could have been a genuine mistake though,it's easily done when packing away and you have to think of 2 things or more at the same time. :lol: 

Waste water is mildly unpleasant when emptied on to a pitch and should not be condoned,however I have no qualms about emptying ours into a hedge bottom or similar out of the way place.

We clean all our plates,pots and pans with kitchen roll to remove any solids before washing them so the only thing that goes into our waste tank is waste water. :wink:


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## Remus (Feb 10, 2011)

Have to disagree with you wakk44 waste water is full of nasties. Body residues from washing & showering, food scraps and grease from crockery (I agree that scraping before washing up helps to some extent) and finally an assortment of chemicals ranging from soap and toothpaste through to washing up liquid, detergent and bleach. I'm sure others can add to this list. Like you I've had to empty the waste water into a hedge on occasions when there has been no alternative but the idea of someone emptying the waste onto the pitch where the next occupants kids may play is sickening.


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## tulsehillboys (Jul 22, 2010)

Remus said:


> Have to disagree with you wakk44 waste water is full of nasties. Body residues from washing & showering, food scraps and grease from crockery (I agree that scraping before washing up helps to some extent) and finally an assortment of chemicals ranging from soap and toothpaste through to washing up liquid, detergent and bleach. I'm sure others can add to this list. Like you I've had to empty the waste water into a hedge on occasions when there has been no alternative but the idea of someone emptying the waste onto the pitch where the next occupants kids may play is sickening.


The grass is not sterile it has all sorts in it! Bird poop and every other animal you can imagine!
Reed beds digest many toxins in water (as does turf). 
I would never advocate getting a pitch wet - simply because a wet patch is not pleasant for the next occupant - but the grey water is no real hazard.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

The problem is, would 'you' choose to go onto that pitch if you knew that waste water had been left on there, and it had been more than just a drop?

Most would say no, I certainly would.

When we are on rally** sites, which are often farmland, we always use the two Wastemasters to collect waste water and ask for a disposal point. If that is not available then we ask where it is safe to pour it away. If the landowner isn't sure then we will go to the nearest surface water drain and tip it down there. It doesn't take long to ask the question.

Toilet waste is another issue and we can usually survive for a few days using the Thetford cassette and the site toilets.

Anyone just letting it out onto the grass should be censured quite severely.

Peter

** Steam Engine type rallies


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## tulsehillboys (Jul 22, 2010)

listerdiesel said:


> The problem is, would 'you' choose to go onto that pitch if you knew that waste water had been left on there, and it had been more than just a drop?


Or one that a fox has pooped on...
etc

It is impossible to legislate for what is essentially a borrowed pitch what has happened to it the day before you arrive. 
Generally what you dont know about you dont worry about


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## Pet12 (Oct 10, 2011)

Waste water may be one thing I always use the waste area if there is one but has you know cl,s etc at meets don't always have them. 

The worst We have had was in Spain where the previous (Spanish) pitchers let their dog use the pitch and just covered with chippings, neadless to say we both stood in it and got it all on the tent, the site cleaned it all up and disinfected the tent cursing the Spanish that had left it. 

Pete


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## tuk-tuk (Jul 8, 2009)

I`ve been on sites in France where the owners ask you to pour your gray water into the hedge as it keeps their water bill down, which in turn should help to keep site fees down.
Tuk-tuk.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Those pitch users should have their membership revoked IMO.

I also do not agree with depositing waste water + whatever it contains, onto the hedgerows etc. 

Many of the chemicals contained within it are toxic to small invertebrates and will damage or destroy much of the natural balance. To say it could have happened yesterday does not detract from it should not be done.

Grey water should be disposed of into a proper soakaway so that the bacteria present there can destroy it effectively.

Black waste (sewage) is obviously everyone's main concern and that must be broken down properly by the aerobic and anaerobic bacteria found within reed beds, sewage plants, septic tanks etc. That is natural and the material will be broken down quickly (a few months for the solid waste, a year or two for paper waste).

Grey water will contain surfactants which can destroy the ability of organisms to survive e.g. the humble earthworm which exchanges gas (carbon dioxide and oxygen) through it's moist skin. Detergent or soap will burn the skin and stop it being able to do that - they are "natures ploughs" and aerate the soil.

Please do not just empty it in the hedge - how many others will have done so before? You may well be the final straw for the organisms there.

Dispose of it properly.

I can unhappily give more examples of organisms that are affected by such activities........  

Dave


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## uncleswede (Apr 16, 2010)

tulsehillboys said:


> Remus said:
> 
> 
> > Have to disagree with you wakk44 waste water is full of nasties. Body residues from washing & showering, food scraps and grease from crockery (I agree that scraping before washing up helps to some extent) and finally an assortment of chemicals ranging from soap and toothpaste through to washing up liquid, detergent and bleach. I'm sure others can add to this list. Like you I've had to empty the waste water into a hedge on occasions when there has been no alternative but the idea of someone emptying the waste onto the pitch where the next occupants kids may play is sickening.
> ...


My wife is a keen gardener and pointed out to me that the RHS _recommend_ using grey water to water gardens when short (e.g. hosepipe bans). They don't recommend watering pots with grey water however.

So, draining grey water under a hedge (assuming it's not on or near a pitch) may actually be beneficial in times of drought 

Also I would imagine that most of the grey water dumps on sites are actually soakaways, rather than pumped out and sent off for water processing? So wouldn't draining into the base of a hedge basically be the same?

Cheers


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*sites*



Penquin said:


> Those pitch users should have their membership revoked IMO.
> 
> I also do not agree with depositing waste water + whatever it contains, onto the hedgerows etc.
> 
> ...


Some C&CC sites do not have waste water facilities and ask you to empty into the hedges or nearest tree.

To be fair, the whole subject of grey water has been done to death.

Dispose of with consideration for other campers, the environment and road users!.

TM


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## rowley (May 14, 2005)

I do hope that The Caravan Club follow this up, or else this individual will continue his inconsiderate habits.


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

Those pitch users should have their membership revoked IMO. 

I also do not agree with depositing waste water + whatever it contains, onto the hedgerows etc. 


At the camp site in Wells Next The Sea a large notice asks people to please empty their waste water onto the hedgerows.

Surely common sense means that you do not deposit anything foul where a tent may set up after we leave, I think they would be the most sensitive to your waste.
Alan


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## carprus (Jun 22, 2008)

uncleswede said:


> tulsehillboys said:
> 
> 
> > Remus said:
> ...


Got to agree as we are now in green times surely it is better to use the water on the grass and plants .


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Being a horticulturalist I have experimented with grey water disposal around plants. Having disposed twice for six months on the same spot on a free draining soil along a short stretch of mixed hedging I can report that it had no discernible detrimental effect and in fact that stretch of hedge thrived on it by comparison to the rest of the hedge. I did this two years running in the same place.

I am quite careful about what we put in the waste water tank though, Alan.

This advice has been around for years. I first saw a version of it around 1974: http://www.rhs.org.uk/gardening/sus...e-way-ahead/water-management/using-grey-water

Quote, "Household soaps and detergents are harmless to plants, but water containing bleaches, disinfectants, dishwasher salt and stronger cleaning products should not be used, as they can harm plants and even damage soil structure if used long-term on soil."

The RHS make no mention of harm to micro organisms but given their importance you can be sure that was considered before this advice was given and continues to be considered. I therefore conclude that little or no such damage has been found to occur.


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## Chausson (Oct 17, 2006)

Hi 
We are on a cc cl at the moment I was told by the owner waste water under the trees please, saves our water bill and saves watering some of the trees.

Ron


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

I too would put grey water onto trees and bushes

I don't put anything in there that could be harmful, its just water and a little washing up liquid and liquid soap in the shower

At home I use washing up liquid in a water spray to control greenfly etc and it works. I have been known to wash complete house plants by swishing them gently in washing up liquid and water

Aldra


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## VanFlair (Nov 21, 2009)

Hedge bottom for me (or my gray waste anyway) I would not use a surface water drain as this goes straight into the stream and river system without any filtration through the ground.

We have a very small stream through our garden and anything that goes into local surface water drains comes straight into it, so NO THANKS.


Martin


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## JohnandChristine (Mar 19, 2012)

I do it responsibly but began to have doubts when this post came up.
Now thanks to erneboy I feel its ok to continue using grey water in hedgerows in a responsible and considerate manner..........so I will.
And I'll always ask the site owner if I'm unsure of the appropriateness.

However, last week we stayed at a pub by a canal, behind our pitch was a ditch overgrown with nettles and then a field of cows.
I had no qualms about allowing my grey to go into a field.

By the way, you should see what the narrowboat community discharge into a canal, and that is basically standing water, so is getting more concentrated with time.


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## johnthompson (Jul 29, 2010)

This is in the guidance issued by Natural England.

*The Caravan Code*

For touring other than on sites equipped with toilets, will carry his/her own sanitary equipment (usually chemical closet and approved related fluid) and dispose of the contents only at a point provided for the purpose. If burial is necessary, as perhaps on private property, *this will not be done in the vicinity of any water course*.

Allows no waste water from the caravan to foul the ground, ensures that suitable receptacles are connected to the waste water pipes to collect the waste, and the receptacles emptied as necessary. In the few instances where no disposal point is provided, *minimum fouling is achieved by distributing the water over a considerable area, as along a hedge*

Pouring waste water into a surface drain is not recommended as this is eventually connected to a water course. It is better to follow Natural Englands (as agents for DEFRA) recommendations and spread it over a distance along a hedge or spreading it widely over rough grass, that is not walked over regularly, where it can soak away naturally. Pouring it onto one spot overloads natures natural disposal methods.

John


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

erneboy said:


> I first saw a version of it around 1974: http://www.rhs.org.uk/gardening/sus...e-way-ahead/water-management/using-grey-water
> 
> .......... I therefore conclude that little or no such damage has been found to occur.


I have read and reread that article with interest and print some sections of it here with highlighting supplied by me but which confirms my concerns about emptying grey water onto a small area repeatedly;

_Grey water should be used *with care*, but can be useful in times of water shortages._

_Plants can be watered with shower, bath, kitchen and washing machine water (from rinse cycles), collectively referred to as 'grey' water. It varies in quality and may contain contaminants such as soap and detergent. Fortunately, soil and potting composts are effective at filtering them out, and the residues can sometimes act as a mild fertiliser.[/_size]

_To minimise bacterial growth, *grey water should only be saved for 24 *hours, unless filtered through a reedbed or professionally-designed system. It is best applied by watering can; grease and fibres can clog irrigation systems._

_There should be no problem with *small-scale, short-term* use of grey water to tide plants over in summer drought. An exception is on edible crops, due to the *risk of contamination from pathogens *in the water._

Long-term, extensive use, or permanent altering of indoor plumbing should not be attempted without expert advice.

_Softened tapwater and dishwasher water are less useful. Salts used in them can damage soil structure, particularly if rich in clay. This said, short-term use of softened water should not cause serious damage and may be worth considering in an emergency._

So my concerns are not without basis if considering frequent emptying of grey water of unknown composition and unknown storage life.

There are many scientific papers which also express concerns about the effects of the chemicals on the environment, much work has been done on aquatic environments where chemicals may leach out and disrupt a balanced ecosystem.

e.g. an extract of a South African study on aquatic ecosystems

_Key Characteristics of Concern: *Toxicity to aquatic organisms,* like fish (vertebrates), daphnids (invertebrates) and algae; *persistence in the environment*; *toxicity of biodegradation byproducts*.

Example: Alkylphenol ethoxylates-biodegrade under anaerobic conditions to alkylphenols, which persist in the environment, *have high toxicity to aquatic organisms*_

source;

http://www.springerlink.com/content/p577374634633060/

there are others but one example is more than enough!

Hence my concerns about dumping grey water in the manner described; either straight onto the pitch or into a hedgerow around the pitch - others may well do the same throughout the season, possibly on a daily basis......

If there is a suitable grey water disposal point it should be used IMO, there is no excuse for what may appear to be laziness...... if such a facility IS available. A correctly designed soakaway spreads the material over a very much larger area - hence the amount per square metre is markedly reduced.

If it's not, then VERY careful thought should be given to ensure that repetition will not build up in one area of the pollution that may result.

Dave


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I was unable to access the document you refer to Dave. I got this message when I clicked on it, "Access to this content is restricted to subscribers. Options for obtaining access are below."

Did you buy it?

In any case if it really was necessary to go as far afield as South Africa to find a paper supporting your view it can't be much of a concern elsewhere. I have no idea what local factors may be in play there generally or in the specific area where the research was conducted.

The RHS approves disposing of grey water onto the soil. The are a professional scientific organisation based in the UK.

As we now seem to have two threads going on this topic and a huge majority who are prepared to follow the advice given by the RHS and one of the caravanning organisations, both of whom approve under certain conditions (as quoted by someone earlier), I think I will bow out of both these threads.

But before I go I will repeat a question I posed for you on the other thread where Mrs. W told us that you are in favour of disposing into storm drains on roads. Don't you think that grey waste put directly into a storm drain is much more likely to discharge straight into a watercourse without having been filtered through the soil and therefore has the potential to do more harm than that disposed of onto the soil? 

The document you refer to seems to deal with the damage to aquatic organisms, "Toxicity to aquatic organisms, like fish (vertebrates), daphnids (invertebrates) and algae; persistence in the environment; toxicity of biodegradation byproducts." I find that interesting when what I am saying is that filtering the grey water through the soil reduces that specific risk, Alan.


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## Bill_H (Feb 18, 2011)

I've got several acres of ground with changing rooms, a shower, washing machine and kitchen sinks, all draining into a herring bone of land dranage pipes burried 2 feet down, spread over more than an acre. It is most obvoius where the pipes are burried as the grass grows at twice the rate of the rest of the field and is a much darker green.
I also have composting toilets, the waste of which is burried in bio-degradable bags.

Are we all happy going to a public swimming baths or a paddle in the sea with all the 'extras' others have left in the water?


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## teal (Feb 23, 2009)

So how come that in the latest drought they said let your waste water go on the garden as it will not harm the plants etc at all?.


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## carprus (Jun 22, 2008)

teal said:


> So how come that in the latest drought they said let your waste water go on the garden as it will not harm the plants etc at all?.


Exactly my point , cannot see past putting it in the hedge or grass but not on a pitch .

Rob.


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