# Towing a Smart car on an A frame



## DJP (May 9, 2005)

Do you tow a Smart car on a A frame?
Had any problms with gearbox or anything else?
How many miles have you towed your Smart car?
What is the furthest you have towed it without driving it in between?
Various comments in poll section say damage may occur if you tow a Smart car on a A frame so I would be grateful of any experiences before having A frame fitted.
Thanks


----------



## 88726 (May 9, 2005)

hi djp

havent towed a smart car , but have a framed my 4x4 all over uk , no probs , cant see how it would damage a gearbox, maybe somebody else will post who has done it to put youre mind at ease.


----------



## 88847 (May 9, 2005)

DJP


Re Smart car towing

i have a roadster smart, and was told that they CANNOT be towed on an A frame because the have a centrifugal clutch system, 
I was going to use a dolly to tow mine but was told it would have to have the rear wheels off the ground.......Problem: they dont have a steering lock on them to lock the wheels
We have opted for a trailer
Bantam trailer do a bespoke trailer for the "baby"smart which i believe i have seen a MHF member with one on this site called "biggermac"

Paul


----------



## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

Tiptronic g/boxes fitted in Smarts rely on a pump to supply oil to the nec working parts (without going into great detail) therefore if a vehicle fitted with this system is towed then lubrication is not being sent to the transmission/drive mechanism, so towing your pride and joy is not on!

Ok for a short tow to the Garage if broken down, not for touring France!

M&D


----------



## 88726 (May 9, 2005)

i'll just get me coat !  

thank god i dont have a smart car . :lol:


----------



## RichardandMary (May 9, 2005)

Hi DJP

You will also invalidate your warranty if you tow a Smart

Regards
R/M


----------



## 88847 (May 9, 2005)

Flying scot

Dont knock smart cars :lol: 

i have never had so much fun in a car for years

70mpg
very fast
scary
little racing car
paddle gear shift
soft top
the list goes on


----------



## 88726 (May 9, 2005)

hi red

not knocking them , theyre actually quite smart :lol: . just thank god i havent got one cause id probabaly have wrecked it by now by towing it about .


----------



## Dickle (May 9, 2005)

My mate and his wife are full-timing in their Kontiki and have covered over 5000 miles towing their Smart car on an A frame, they have been to Spain twice and have had no problems whatsoever with the car......perhaps ignorance is bliss?


----------



## 89122 (May 14, 2005)

Hi my Smart has a 6 speed manual box, you can use it as an auto or change gear using the lever, it is electronically controlled and not hydraulically driven.
It only has a brake pedal and throttle pedal, it is great fun to drive and is towed on an A Bar.
Eddie


----------



## DJP (May 9, 2005)

*Questions, questions, questions for EDDIE*

Hi Eddie
Whilst towing:-
Do you leave the gear lever over to the right or the left?
Keys in or out of ignition? If in, in which posiion?
Do you lock the doors or do they self lock?(If keys are not in ignition)
I assume it is unbraked?
Do you use a trailer/lighting board?

Sorry for all the questions but it's a case of need to know!
Thanks in anticipation

Dennis


----------



## 89122 (May 14, 2005)

Hi Dennis, the gears are in neutral, the key is turned to first position, Doors unlocked,unbraked A Frame with Brake Buddy in car to operate car brakes, all fitted by Towtal, car plugs in to light socket on motorhome.
Towtal fit a Frame to the car and wire up a plug for the lights etc, A Frame clips on to Brackets on car plug in electrics and Drive .

Towtal
hope this helps
Eddie


----------



## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

My understanding was that it was illegal to tow a car with an A frame on mainland Europe ..Am I misinformed :?:


----------



## DJP (May 9, 2005)

*Smart A Frame*

Eddie
Thanks for prompt reply.
I am going up to Towtal !st July for fitting etc. I have not come across *Brake Buddy * before. I assume it applies the brakes in the Smart? Was it extra or included in the price? I am paying about £795 for tow bar and A frame and lights.
Sorry for more questions
Dennis


----------



## DJP (May 9, 2005)

*Towing on A frame legality*

Hi Scotjimland

I have looked into this recently and found this on Towtal website

When attached with a fixed towing frame the car is considered to be a
trailer and is subject to trailer regulations covered by the official
Construction and Use Regulations. A number of EEC Directives
apply to U.K. trailer regulations. A car on tow with a fixed towing
device is defined as a steerable multi-axle trailer.

Dennis


----------



## 89122 (May 14, 2005)

Hi Dennis, yes it is extra but it means you can use the lighter unbraked A Frame and the Brake Buddy does all the braking.
All in Price around £1200,
Eddie


----------



## DJP (May 9, 2005)

*Smart A frame Again!*

Eddie
Thanks again.
Towtal tell me an unbraked A frame is ok as the Smart (Pulse) weighs in at 720kg with 75% fuel load and no passengers. :?

Dennis


----------



## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Dennis,
thank you for the info, I have looked at the regulations on this site,
http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml
and it's still at bit of a grey area .. here is an extract ,

Quote 
"From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.

Alan Mendelson
Primary Safety Branch
Department for Transport"

Un Quote

These are the UK regs, Im still looking for the directive from the EU , my interest stems from my own desire to tow a small car around europe and I read somewhere that it was only legal on a braked trailer.. I'll keep searching ..

Jim


----------



## 89468 (May 24, 2005)

*Towing a SMART*

Here goes nothing!

I've been researching this subject for weeks. I've heard all the horror stories from Merc about the seals blowing on the gearbox. Dreadful wear on the gearbox itself, etc. etc. But, to cut a long story short (and it is a VERY long story), the SMART does not have a conventional automatic gearbox (which would get damaged if towed). The best description I've heard is that it's a software controlled manual box. This means that when you put it in neutral, that's exactly what you get. No problems. Because I'm a suspicious individual I didn't take all this without checking around, so when the Caravan Club held it's annual rally in my back garden (Burghley Park) a couple of weeks ago, I took a ramble around and found people who were towing SMARTS on A frames. I asked each of them what their experiences were and not one of them had ever had a single problem. Then I asked the dealer that I bought my RV from. They said the same thing: Both they and several of their customers have been towing SMARTS for years without any adverse effects. Pretty convincing evidence. However, one thing worth bearing in mind is that sur le continent, several member states are not too keen on A frames. They have to tolerate them as apparently, the ruling is that the law which applies is that of the country of origin, i.e. if you arrive from the UK towing with an A frame, there's not much they can do about it if you stand your ground. However (again), the Dept of Transport is currently reviewing and updating the UK rules on towed vehicles and no-one seems very certain as to what the revised definitions will be. It could be that they will come into line with other EU states and make A frames 'illegal'. Whether this will apply retrospectively is anyones guess.

Bottom line: For more or less the price of a braked A frame, you can go to Woodford Trailers and get a very nice, fully braked trailer that will take all four wheels of your SMART off the ground. As far as I know, no-one (not even the French) object to that and as a bonus, you only wear out two tyres instead of four.

So after weeks of convincing myself that an A frame was the answer. I went out and bought a trailer today.

Go figure.


----------



## DJP (May 9, 2005)

*Smart on an A*

Hi Gewity
Been through everything you have and still looking :? 
I have searched many web sites including all MH sites and Smart sites and cannot find ANYONE who has actually had a mechanical problem whilst towing on an A frame  
The legal side is still a grey area, but at the moment leaning to the legal side in UK and Europe. The Towtal website gives lots of info and documents to convince various law enforcement agencies that A frame towing is legal as long as the lighting rquirement is complied with.
Again I cannot find anybody who has been prosecuted for A frame towing.
So that is the route I am going. .........................for now anyway.

Enjoy the MH and Smart

Dennis


----------



## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

Bought a Smart Brian james Trailer of EBay, off to France with it next week, so yesterday gave it a spin for the first time. 
For what its worth I found wear gloves, grease all over my hands from some where. I have aTag Hymer 7.7 mtrs with no rear window so a camera is a must (if only to reassure yourself its still there) you cant see the trailer at all with the mirrors, need to take care with cornering could clip the kerb with the trailer. Reversing not to much of a problem however you could find yourself in a tight spot where the only answer is to unhitch so tried this on level tarmac and I found I could push the trailer and car together (not to far though) . Takes about 10 mins to off load the car and pack away the straps. (Don't make the mistake I did without thinking I unhitched the trailer before I drove the car off, interesting see saw action) Conclusion being new to MH I have come to realise most things to do with the van is a compromise and eveything seems to cost multiples of £400.00


----------



## eupho (Jun 3, 2005)

*Towing on an A Frame*

Hi, 
I too have been looking into this recently and it seems that many of the replies are at variance to the information posted on the National Trailer & Towing Association site, which as I read it states quite specifically that towing a Smart on an A frame does not conform to the relevant European Directive.

..
*I have a motor home and want to tow a Fiat Seicento behind it using an A-frame. *This car has a kerb weight under 750 kg so am I legal with this outfit? Sorry no is the answer. The law regards this as an unbraked trailer and you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross Trailer Weight, not a car's kerb weight. The figure you have to use is the car's Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight. We have no knowledge of any car sold in the UK that has a GVW under 750 kg. The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100. An A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal. A-frames may be offered with a braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety.


----------



## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

Just out of interest I found this: www.aixamatwheelsnw.co.uk/


----------



## DJP (May 9, 2005)

*Smart A Frame*

Yes it is very much a grey area. I understand your post on unladen v gross weight. 
It's a bit like having a Ferrari capable of 200mph and only being able to drive at 70mph.  
I would never tow Smart with anything in it and IF stopped would request to be taken to nearest weighbridge to prove the trailer I am towing, unbraked, is in fact under the permissable towing capacity and see where we go from there.

Since my last post I have had the towbar and A frame fitted to the Smart by Towtal in Stoke on Trent.

I would also point out from your post


> I have a motor home and want to tow a Fiat Seicento behind it using an A-frame. This car has a kerb weight under 750 kg so am I legal with this outfit? Sorry no is the answer. The law regards this as an unbraked trailer and *you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross Trailer *Weight


States You are allowed to tow up to 750kg gross trailer weight and that's what I am doing


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

If you have any doubts about towing a Smart on an A Frame I was assured this little Aixam weighing only 350 to 380Kgms depending on model could be towed without problems. Its two cylinder engine is capable of 70 miles per gallon with a top speed of 60mph. Price new about £8000

peedee


----------



## DJP (May 9, 2005)

*Doubts? not me!*

Quote 
"From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.

Alan Mendelson 
Primary Safety Branch 
Department for Transport"

Un Quote

*These are the UK regs, Im still looking for the directive from the EU *

Same regs I assume as we are part of EU?


----------



## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

*Re: Doubts? not me!*



DJP said:


> how do you post a picture?


Post in the normal way, then scroll down to "add an attachment", use "Browse" to find where it is located on your computer, then just press Submit

Andrew


----------



## eupho (Jun 3, 2005)

Hi DJP,
I hope that you are right but you seem to be ignoring the following,

"The figure you have to use is the car’s Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight"


----------



## Maverick (May 9, 2005)

Here's ours.....

We prefer the trailer as it's less wear and tear on the Smart and no issues in Europe. I just have to remember it's there!


----------



## DJP (May 9, 2005)

*A Frame*

We currently store MH on a secure compound and the Smart at home in a garage. We just don't have room for a trailer as well 



> Hi DJP,
> I hope that you are right but you seem to be ignoring the following,
> 
> "The figure you have to use is the car's Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight"


Err well yes officer you do have a point there 
I will fit one when I get home :twisted:


----------



## Enodreven (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi, does towing a car add much to the fuel consumption?? either on an "A" frame or a trailer

Brian


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Smart Car*

I have seen lots of Smarts being towed on the continent on a frames and dolleys.

I am considering towing our Audi A2, does anyone know the best "Legal" way to tow this througout Europe?

Trev


----------



## Maverick (May 9, 2005)

Enodreven said:


> Hi, does towing a car add much to the fuel consumption?? either on an "A" frame or a trailer
> 
> Brian


Well to be honest I don't know. We have the Smart on a trailer and with all the advantages of taking the car along we have never checked. Certainly performance wise it doesn't seem to make much difference except on the steepest of hills and our range doesn't seem to be reduced dramatically.

Promise to check properly next year and report back......


----------



## DJP (May 9, 2005)

*Fuel consumption*

Our MH is still fairly low mileage and is still loosening up, so it is difficlut to say. I will say that the consumption did not drop from previous trips without Smart and we have not done any trips recently, without the Smart .
So it either makes no diference or there has been an improvement which we have not yet enjoyed! I hope this makes sense!
My thought is that the difference, if any would be marginal. The Smart weighs in at 750kg and is 3' behind the MH so not attracting any wind resistance to the frontal area. If it costs 1 or 2 mpg it's still worth it. When touring around off site at 50mpg in the Smart as opposed to sub 20mpg in MH (if around small towns villages) it has got to be worth doing! AND the mileage does not go up on the Smart whilst being towed :twisted:


----------



## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

*Re: Smart Car*



teemyob said:


> I have seen lots of Smarts being towed on the continent on a frames and dolleys.
> I am considering towing our Audi A2, does anyone know the best "Legal" way to tow this througout Europe?


On a braked trailer....


----------



## 89504 (May 25, 2005)

*TOWING WITH AN A-FRAME*

I have been towing a Fiat Sciencento with a Hymer for 4 years in the UK without any problems. However, when towing in France I use a Brain James trailer. Based on my experience I can honestly say that it is much easier to use the A-Frame, in fact I'm thinking of selling the trailer! To be blunt loading the car onto a trailer, strapping it down etc. in 40 degrees of heat is not much fun! 
From what I can understand is that few if any people have been stopped and severely fined for using a A-Frame on the continent. 
Regardless of legality I cannot understand how a trailer has any advantages over an A-Frame re: safety, storage, convenience, etc. Surely, towing the car with its 4 wheels on the road must be very safe as the car will have had an MOT or not be eligible for one! Can any one explain why a trailer is better than an A-Frame in this respect?

Peter (thehawk)


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Not me cos I agree with you 100 percent  

peedee


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Maverick said:


> Enodreven said:
> 
> 
> > Hi, does towing a car add much to the fuel consumption?? either on an "A" frame or a trailer
> ...


I have been towing using an A frame over the last 4 years and I agree with 
Maverick. I think it may reduce m.p.g by 1 mile if that. I tend to drive more carefully when towing. Less use of the heavy right foot and of course you come under towing law so your speeds are much less which all adds to improve consumption. Result it isn't much different to going solo.

peedee


----------



## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

Like many things in life OK until something goes wrong, the test would be if an insurance company would pay out in the event of an accident if it was illegal to tow on a A frame in that country where the incident occurred.


----------



## DJP (May 9, 2005)

*Insurance*



> Like many things in life OK until something goes wrong, the test would be if an insurance company would pay out in the event of an accident if it was illegal to tow on a A frame in that country where the incident occurred.


I informed my insurance companies (Smart and MH) before going to france Spain and Andorra

NO problem they said! 

The ONLY advantage of a trailer over an A frame is you CAN reverse the MH and Trailer whilst coupled. You can't do that with an A Frame


----------



## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

I towed with a trailer for two years. I have now sold it and had an A frame fitted because all my friends have them and havent had a problem whatsoever towing through France and Spain. There was apparently a test court case in spain where somebody got fined heavily. On appeal it was pointed out that as the A frame conformed to British trailer laws ie it had legal brakes and lights there was no case to answer and the guy won the case and got his money back.. I was supplied with this information and a written document in several languages to show the police should we have trouble. I bought mine from Pro tow in Poole Dorset. Fully braked and lighted system around 800 quid all in. 
We are planning a trip through Holland, germany, denmark and then into Poland next summer. Has anybody had experience of these countries whilst using an A frame. All EEC countries so shouldnt be a problem, hopefully 

P.S. I did make a point of getting my insurance co ( NFU) to write me a letter confirming that I was fully covered whilst towing the car ( also insured by them) on an A frame.


----------

