# !n 30 days its Christmas day



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I am alone in the kitchen making bread.
Many thought s going through my head about Christmas.
One thought about the persons who´s birthday is being celebrated,
when he grew up, how did he earn money to live?
Jan


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

The same way the Tooth Fairy, Father Christmas, St. Nick and others managed to. Flogging books on Amazon.

Ray.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

29 people have looked and so far no_ sensible_ answer, that tells me you, like me, have no idea. Funny that.
Jan


----------



## cabby (May 14, 2005)

He was a carpenter.

cabby


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

cabby said:


> He was a carpenter.
> 
> cabby


His dad was, but where does it tell us he was?


----------



## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

No proof whatsoever (other than a few things written many hundreds of years AFTER he is aledged to have lived) that "He" ever existed. 

Personally, by dint of applying a bit of logic to the whole issue, I am an atheist. 

However if others "believe" and it gives them some comfort then I have no problem but do suggest they read Richard Dawkins book "The God delusion" It's very well written and VERY well argued from BOTH viewpoints! (Which came a big surprise to me as I expected it to be a one sided rant, which it most certainly isn't )

Andy


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Mrplodd said:


> No proof whatsoever (other than a few things written many hundreds of years AFTER he is aledged to have lived) that "He" ever existed.
> Personally, by dint of applying a bit of logic to the whole issue, I am an atheist.
> However if others "believe" and it gives them some comfort then I have no problem but do suggest they read Richard Dawkins book "The God delusion" It's very well written and VERY well argued from BOTH viewpoints! (Which came a big surprise to me as I expected it to be a one sided rant, which it most certainly isn't )
> Andy


I´m not questioniing if he did or did not exist Andy, only if the story tells us what he did to earn his keep, I am reading some bits on t´internet.
My view, I´m a gamekeeper turned poacher.
Jan


----------



## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Ah, fair enough.

In that case I cannot say that I have ever considered the question you have raised! Can't say I have the faintest idea of an answer either 

Andy


----------



## blindwatchertrev (Nov 4, 2011)

Mrplodd said:


> No proof whatsoever (other than a few things written many hundreds of years AFTER he is aledged to have lived) that "He" ever existed.
> 
> Personally, by dint of applying a bit of logic to the whole issue, I am an atheist.
> 
> ...


Thouroughly endorse what Andy says about 'The God Delusion'. Indeed, Dawkins's other works are very worthwhile as well.


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Taking this to it's logical conclusion at least 50% of the worlds population have been conned. Thats a lot of people so a damn good scam.

Ray.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I don't condemn those who have the belief Ray please don't make this thread into a Religious argument, discussion, points of view if you won't, but no arguments please. 
For fourty years of my life I had a very strong belief and spent a lot of time amongst people of the same mind, they were very happy years. In the last 17 years I have questioned everything I believed in and come up with my own answer, I do not wish or expect everyone to have the same opinion as me. 
An old lady told me years ago "I have my faith and I don't question it" at the time neither did I.
Jan


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

blindwatchertrev said:


> Thouroughly endorse what Andy says about 'The God Delusion'. Indeed, Dawkins's other works are very worthwhile as well.


I'll ciome back and suggest another book

And inthe interest of looking at alternative views I'm sure you'll read it >

Well you want tobalanceyour view :smile2::wink2:

And not just read what supports it

Well won't you?

Sandra


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

JanHank said:


> I don't condemn those who have the belief Ray please don't make this thread into a Religious argument, discussion, points of view if you won't, but no arguments please.
> For fourty years of my life I had a very strong belief and spent a lot of time amongst people of the same mind, they were very happy years. In the last 17 years I have questioned everything I believed in and come up with my own answer, I do not wish or expect everyone to have the same opinion as me.
> An old lady told me years ago "I have my faith and I don't question it" at the time neither did I.
> Jan


Agreed Jan. I was in fact a Baptist Minister in my early years. So I have seen it from both sides. I'm not trying to 'convert' or even discredit. Just my point of view.

Ray.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Well Jan I have faith

And I question it continuously 

But I just can't get my God to step away 

I fell I love with Him 

in my twenties 

And in my seventies it remains

My faith wavers, my love doesn't 

A bit the same with my love for Albert 

Sandra


----------



## Jamsieboy (Jan 14, 2011)

Jan
I think he earned his "keep" as an itinerant preacher/teacher. 
Back in the day money was less important that food and a place to stay.
So as a wandering itinerant preacher/teacher he would have been given a bed and food.

I too was a "no questions asked" believer for 20 years and then ................


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

May it stay that way Sandra, but I have to be honest to myself.

I was a very active Methodist, church/chapel every Sunday, weekday meetings, visiting old folks and more. I loved it all, then something happened to make me wonder and started me thinking.
I will sing/whistle the hymns and carols at Christmas, can't wash that away. 
The candle lit Christmas eve service with the midnight communion after the white candle in the center of the Advent candles had been lit was always wonderful.
It's all still in the head, but I have to be true to myself and no person or book will convince me to change my mind.
Jan


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

No Jan

No person or book ever will

They are just intellectual exercises and inform your thoughts 

But it may, just one day whenyoudont expect it, enter your heart, and you will fall in love 

And then you are done for 

Well I certainly was

Sandra


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

raynipper said:


> Agreed Jan. I was in fact a Baptist Minister in my early years. So I have seen it from both sides. I'm not trying to 'convert' or even discredit. Just my point of view.
> 
> Ray.


Sounds as if you have an interesting story to tell Ray, feel like telling us more?
Jan


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Not really Jan. I was young and impressionable. Got 'converted' at a Billy Graham rally at Harringay Arena about 1958 or before.
Far more interesting being a Mini Cab driver and for a time delivering White Goods around London. 


Ray.


----------



## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

JC was a carpenter.
He only took up full time preaching the last three years before his death, some estimates as little as one year. He was most probably 'kept' by his followers, family (he's been a very naughty boy!) and most probably his twelve mates were still working part-time.


----------



## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Why would he have needed to work?

No vehicle to maintain (a 'bus for 13 would have been horrendous and needed all sorts of different licences, insurance, testing and of course taxes.....

No Council tax to plan and pay for, if the "Council" decided a new tax was needed they simply charged everyone they felt they should or else.....

No house insurance as he was one of the Homeless group, along with his friends living under the railway bridges and in the corners of the camel parks (operated by NCP - National Camel Parking)

he did his best to avoid tax collectors by simply kicking them out - may work for a short time but not recommended as tax evasion is not legal, although avoidance is.....

He did not need a lot of food - if he could feed 5,000 on 5 loaves and 2 small fishes the odd leaf would have given him an ample supply of packed meals - he had already been offered as a special that he could strike stones and pick up more bread than he could ever want....

He was not worried about leaving 'owt for his descendants as he was a bachelor and had left the family business,

so all in all, his needs would be easily fulfilled - fruit from the trees, the odd olive (terrible raw though IMO), a few spare bits of wheat from beside the roadside, perhaps even the odd bit of roadkill from the Roman traffic..... (animals not Jews)

I believe that he was doing the Grand Tour (without Ckarkson et al) of the known world for a maximum of 3 years, but the reputation he built in that time and particularly in his last few days has lasted much longer than Clarkson, Farage, Boris or anyone else currently alive will achieve.

Yes, that is meant to be a bit of fun, yes I do have a Christian faith, yes I did serve on a rural PCC (Vicar of Dibley is sooo accurate), yes I was on a Deanery Synod and I was Diocesan Children's Education adviser, so I do have a background.....

I have seen the good bits of faith and the bad bits - many of the latter are when people take things to extremes....

Books? Yes I have read loads on both points of view, but why should I want other people's opinions? I can form my own from my own experiences and like the allegorical comment that "there are no atheists or unbelievers on the battlefield" in other words there are times when all of us suddenly find some form of faith. However short lasting....

Dave


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Thank you Dave.

As you said, who do I thank when there is nobody around to thank, I still say thank god automatically.

We, Hans and I that is, have long discussions about the Chriastian faith struggling to understand what we believed in until we started questioning it, we always come up with the same answer.
It used to be heart over head now its the opposite.
Jan


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Well Jan

It isn't really

And I have no intentoin of starting an argument 

I'm happy to accept what ever people believe

It's their choice

For me it's simple In one way

I met Him, and eventually loved Him , not easily

But nothing has managed to shake that love

Nor probably more important

That feeling of being loved in spite of everything 

Sandra


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

aldra said:


> Well Jan
> 
> It isn't really
> 
> ...


The last thing I would do is argue with you or anyone Sandra, in fact I envy you, if I could reverse to my former belief I would, hence the discussions we have. 
Jan


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

No need Jan

If the time is right it will reverse or not

And if not then there is another pathway meant for you 

Nothing is really as it seems in this life 

And contrary to what many seem to think

It's no walk in the park with God beside you 

Except for sometimes

Sandra


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

aldra said:


> I'll ciome back and suggest another book
> 
> And inthe interest of looking at alternative views I'm sure you'll read it >
> 
> ...


I would suggest you read Who made God? By Edgar Andrews

A scientist himself, very readable and thought provoking

Sandra


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Well it seems Teresa May is now asking God for guidance. So we can blame him if it all goes wrong.??

Ray.


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

aldra said:


> I would suggest you read Who made God? By Edgar Andrews
> 
> A scientist himself, very readable and thought provoking
> 
> Sandra


Got it on the Kindle now Sandra.
Jan


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

How about "Was God an Astronaut" by Eric Von Daniken.? 

Ray.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

JanHank said:


> Got it on the Kindle now Sandra.
> Jan


I think you will enjoy it Jan

Sandra


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

QUOTE=raynipper;2361914]How about "Was God an Astronaut" by Eric Von Daniken.?

Ray.[/QUOTE]

Will look for it Ray

But give is a clue

New age atheists? Or not

Sandra


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

aldra said:


> I think you will enjoy it Jan
> 
> Sandra


I'm re reading it along side you Jan

Sandra


----------



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

aldra said:


> QUOTE=raynipper;2361914]How about "Was God an Astronaut" by Eric Von Daniken.?
> 
> Ray.


Will look for it Ray 
But give is a clue
New age atheists? Or not
Sandra[/QUOTE]

An alternative viewpoint Sandra.
A bit like "Farenheit 9/11" leaving more questions than answers.

Ray.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

raynipper said:


> Will look for it Ray
> But give is a clue
> New age atheists? Or not
> Sandra


An alternative viewpoint Sandra.
A bit like "Farenheit 9/11" leaving more questions than answers.

Ray.[/QUOTE]

Sounds about right Ray 
I'm always happy to be left with more questions
I have a feeling when I'm not I'll be dead or dying :grin2:

Sandra


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

aldra said:


> I'm re reading it along side you Jan
> 
> Sandra


I expect your half way through or finished.
I read for 2 hours Sandra, couldn´t read it anymore, sorry to say I could not understand where he was getting to and found it like trying to listen to a boring sermon.
I know you are a fast reader, me I have to read every word and understand it, maybe thats why I found it ---- boring.
Sorry,
Jan


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

How far did you get Jan?

The laws of physics can be a bit daunting but boring isn't a word I could apply to it

I find it fascinating and science was never my subject

I do read fast naturally, but I also have to understand it 

Sorry you didn't enjoy it 

Sandra


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

So where are you Jan?

Sandra


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

aldra said:


> So where are you Jan?
> 
> Sandra


Here, just starting again from the beginning, perhaps I am in a better frame of mind tonight and it will sink in, please don't disturb, I have told Hans.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Jan my love 

You are not expected to understand it all

Just absorb the things 

Nothing to do with the theology

He writes well, explains well

And if nothing else 

You will end up with an understanding of thermodynamics . 

I found him really amusing and a good teacher

And who doesn't wantto understand thermodynamics ?.>:grin2:

Sandra


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

aldra said:


> Jan my love
> 
> You are not expected to understand it all
> 
> ...


Its a struggle Sandra, I´m giving up for tonight, I´m as far as *Yogurt *I really don´t think I will be able to finish the book.
Jan


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Ahh you are on the breakfast

He's already told you your unlikely to understand

But don't worry

But I guess your toast will will cold :grin2:

Relax and go with the flow, you are not a physicist, a philosopher or a theology student

You just glean what you can, ponder and you will be amazed

It won't change your beliefs

But it will give you food for thought

Excluding that cold toast:wink2:

Sandra


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Hey Jan

Let's take it together chapter by chapter 

We obviously won't glean the same things

Unfortunately my degree was theology 

Which is nota study of God as so many think, but a study of mans response to God

But you are safe it not my role to change people's beliefs

Mine is far too simple

I just love God 

And if there was nothing in afterlife

It would be enough to have loved him in this life

And for Him to have loved me 

Sandra


----------



## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

aldra said:


> Hey Jan
> 
> Let's take it together chapter by chapter
> 
> ...


Even after my restart and reading what I had read all over again I still cannot get my head round it Sandra.
Its not the kind of book I would ever enjoy, sorry, thank you for trying to educate me > no thats not the right thing to say.
Thanks for being concerned, thats probably not right either so just thank you for being you .
Jan X


----------



## Matchlock (Jun 26, 2010)

I think I may be with Jan on this one but I started at a much earlier age.
When I was at Primary School every Friday we had to go to our local church after assembly for prayers, at 10 years old I had had enough so had a long chat with my headmaster about the fact that it was not doing anything for me.

My parents asked me to go to Sunday school which I did twice, first time to see what it was like and the second time to confirm my feelings, they also asked me to go to Church with the same outcome (bear in mind that they asked and not demanded)
When I told them it was not for me they conceded to my feelings.

Back to the Headmaster, I convinced him about my thoughts on religion and about my beliefs or non depending on your point of view,he made me the Milk monitor so while everybody else was at church I delivered the milk to the classrooms which I think was a useful solution.

Since then I will always listen to anybody's point of view on religion, I get the Jehovah's and some times the Mormons round every couple of months and after they have put over their point I give my alternative view, we always finish the conversation amicably.
Perhaps that is why the keep coming back because I will listen to them but not always with a favorable outcome.

When it comes down to it I do not have any faith apart from my faith in people but if religion or faith is what you require then that is not a problem with me, each to their own, but don't expect me to agree and NO I will not change my mind on my deathbed.


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

The reason I suggested it was

In response to , no not In response, but as an alternative viewpoint to the God Delusion

It certainly isn't a sermon maybe more of a lecture on the laws of physics 

I think he is brilliant, I learnt so much about physics and philosophy,which to be fair I know a lot about already(philosophy)

And at the end I didn't think he pushed belief but laid out the counter arguments 

i found his sense of humour delightful

And he used my favourite book

Alice in wonderland/though the looking glass

I like the queen find it takes all the running I can do to stay in the same place

You tried Jan , good for you , I'm sorry it didn't work

But I suspect you got too hung up trying to follow the laws of physics 

whereas I'm happy to move on and return to things later as I understand more

Sandra


----------



## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Matchlock said:


> I think I may be with Jan on this one but I started at a much earlier age.
> When I was at Primary School every Friday we had to go to our local church after assembly for prayers, at 10 years old I had had enough so had a long chat with my headmaster about the fact that it was not doing anything for me.
> 
> My parents asked me to go to Sunday school which I did twice, first time to see what it was like and the second time to confirm my feelings, they also asked me to go to Church with the same outcome (bear in mind that they asked and not demanded)
> ...


Well

you prob didn't read the God Delusion

This book is in no way attempting to change your relious affilliation or lack of it

It's looking at evidence or lack of evidence on the existence of God

If He doesn't exist for you

You might or might not want to study views that agree with you

Or possibally things that don't

Sandra:wink2:


----------

