# LPG question ?



## martkaz (May 9, 2005)

My friend has got a bee in his bonnet about the need or "law" as he put it, of a drop out hole in the floor of the gas locker..... mine has just got vents in the door and he's saying im breaking the law 8O.... if this is the case how would it of past any gas inspections ? and would a company such as Autotrail build motorhomes that don't comply with the law ?.... does anyone know the answer....

thanx in advance Martyn


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Yes there are some regs to do with gas and they do reccomend having a hole at the bottom of the gas locker, they have no force of law though.

as you can see Autotrail are ignoring a reccomendation not a law.

Gas lockers are also supposed to be made of steel or another material that will not burn thru in under 20 Mins ( the fact that the whole van would have burnt to the ground by then seems to have escaped them )

Imagine a boat if it were law what kind of boat would it be with a hole in the bottom ?


BTW what gas inspections? heard and seen of gas servicing, but no gas inspection as such or certification.

I would say the vent would be safe enough, do not rely on manufacturers making things safe according to any regulations tho.

I have seen lots of vans recently with 240 Volt sockets in the shower room highly dangerous and totally against wiring regs, this worries me far more than a missing drop out hole.

George


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

I'm not 100% sure on this ,but I believe the gas storage cupboard has to be vented, for obvious reasons..in a lot of M/H's that vent is in the locker floor because LPG is heavier than air.
Maybe this is where your freind's 'bee' comes from, a vent is in place in your locker door, that meets regs as far as I know.
Regards M&D


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Any one who stores a gas cylinder in a locker that is not vented at its LOWEST point is asking for trouble, LPG is a liquid and can be poured just as easily as water and indeed can slop around in the bottom of a locker that is not vented correctly. Boats normally have their gas locker in the rear upper deck area and then vented in the bottom of the locker to come out above water level, I have witnessed two boats going up Poole Harbour through bad instalations plus the bad experience of bailing LPG out of the bilges out at 0300Hrs in Yarmouth Harbour, an experience I do not wish to repeat.

Do yourself a favour, dont take the advice on this matter from this forum, go to the experts (Corgie ) and ask them.

Ken


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi

Have seen propane lockers on British Gas Vans that only had door vents

You would expect them to follow the regs if really needed would you not.

George


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## martkaz (May 9, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Imagine a boat if it were law what kind of boat would it be with a hole in the bottom ?
> George


Thanx George, and im still laughing at the above comment. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Martyn


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## 89429 (May 23, 2005)

The difference in boats and MHs is that boats with gas usually have a forced vent system with fans that are run before the engine is started to avoid the bilges blowing as Ken has witnessed in Poole Harbour.
The "guidelines" in this country for motorhome gas installations are "owned" by the National Caravan Council(NCC). If the MH is approved by them you should have no problem with your gas installation.
If in doubt stay away from me on sites please.
George I think your comments are a bit simplistic and could cause confusion, you are obviously a man with great experience not everybody knows what they are doing as well as you do.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Ken

LPG cannot be poured as easily as water.

If released into the atmosphere it rapidly expands into 270 times its volume as a vapour.

The quantum of gas to air ratio required for ignition is between 2 % and 9 % other wise ignition will not occur. Its not as easy to have an accident with LPG as people imagine. ie knock the regulator off and allow all the gas to escape into the fire whats the most likely thing to happen? diddly Squat absolutely nothing. 

LPG is not poisoness it could kill you by asphyxiation (drowning in the vapour)

Nothing we do in life is 100% safe LPG is not easy to cause problems with but that does not mean we should not show it the respect it deserves.

There is a corgi fitter on another MH forum who thinks drop out holes are overated and that Carbon monoxide poisening from faulty gas apliances is the one we should be concerned with.

At the time I checked for deaths By LPG explosion and looking at the records of most major countries I could find none for last 6 or 7 years.

Carbon monoixide is the one we should really concern ourselves with have the apliances chacked, do not use if the flame is Yellow Tipped.

Do not use a cooker hob as a van heat source, this is the only gas appliance that is not room sealed (or it should be !) the CO build up of using this as an heater can kill you.

George


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

George

I have no intention of getting into an argument with you, you may choose to beleive what you will, may be you would like to pass your expertise on to the fire service and discover their reaction. I have demonstrated many times the pouring of LPG from one milk bottle to another and watched the liquid flow and finally lighting it to show how easily it can happen.
------------------------------------------
Docted
I agee in princible with what you say, with water craft it is not unusual for engine bays to be blown before ignition of the engines, however bilges more often than not contain automatic bilge pumps that work from a float switch, these are very seldom sealed against the ingress of gas, they are designed to be left unattended and can switch on at any time, thats when accidents can happen.
-----------------------------------------
As said previously I am not going to argue, I stand by my previous posting. If there is any one who has any doubts about their gas installions go to someone with the appropiate expertise

Ken


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Ken

Quotes from Ken S post

"I have demonstrated many times the pouring of LPG from one milk bottle to another and watched the liquid flow and finally lighting it to show how easily it can happen."

"As said previously I am not going to argue, I stand by my previous posting. If there is any one who has any doubts about their gas installions go to someone with the appropiate expertise"

Endquotes


Sorry but several sites concerned with nothing but LPG written by Shell BP and Other expert companies are all wrong?

They all say that if released into the atmosphere it turns into a vapour, so there is NO liquid to pour.

They also say that the ratio of gas to air must be between 2% and 9 % otherwise it will not ignite, which is why if your fridge jet is damaged by the tiniest amount the gas will not light.

Sorry Ken but you saying it, is not good enough to overturn the facts stated in several expert websites.

George


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

I would not be happy without a vent at the lowest point.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Rowley

In your case then

Happiness can easily be achieved 

The Zen of motorhomes


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi
> 
> Have seen propane lockers on British Gas Vans that only had door vents
> 
> ...


They may be built like my Autotrail locker, no obvious vent but put your hand under the bottom of the gas locker door and there is gap between this and the floor of the locker. So effectively it is provided with a floor vent.



> If released into the atmosphere it rapidly expands into 270 times its volume as a vapour.
> 
> The quantum of gas to air ratio required for ignition is between 2 % and 9 % other wise ignition will not occur.


Your dead right it expands rapidly, so rapidly in fact that the air to gas ratio is very very rapidly realised. Anyone who has had the misfortune to have experienced a leak which has caught fire knows this. i.e in practice butane or propane will ignite very very readily. I would make sure your gas locker does have bleed holes at the lowest point.

peedee


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi peedee

re door bottom gap, whether this would meet the size that is required in the regs I do not know.

Any way re gas and ignition at the edge of a leak "cloud"and also what happens to LPG when released into atmosphere in general.

http://www.gameco.com.au/lpg.htm


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

There are no LAWS or regulations saying that there has to be any gas drop out holes in a cupboard where you may store your gas cylinder and there are no LAWS or regualtions saying there has to be any such vents under or near any LPG appliance used inside your caravan or motorhome. 

If there was any LAWS why is it that I can look in any dealers yard and find motorhomes where the gas bottles are stored under a bed locker or under the cooking facilities?????

Where people are getting confused here is the NCC regulations. The National Caravan Council state that any manufacturer who wishes to have to NCC stamp of approval applied to a new model must ensure that the product must meet certain criterior, which cover LPG installation, insulation, etc etc.
Have none of you got/had/used a mobile LPG heater. Did it leak?
It always amazes me as to why anybody creates within themselves such paranoia that a LPG cylinder is going to leak all over the place. The most likely sources of a leak is at the cooker. How many people here have ---- turned the gas on----- stuck a match--------- match blew out, or the gas had not yet comes thro the pipes to the cooker------- stuck another match and POP. Strike the bloody match first if you havent got a spark gun.

Natural and LPG regs apply to residential and commercial properties and not to caravans and motorhomes. Did you know that it is ILLEGAL to take a propane cylinder into a house???????????

Ever used a GAZ cooker which is attatch to the the cylinder.


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## dodger148 (May 9, 2005)

There should be vents in a gas cylinder compartment, be it in the door, or floor it should be at the lowest point as LPG finds the lowest point to travel. 
This was demonstated many years ago in a safety film made by my former employers 
( a very large gas company) It should not vented into the van.
Those vans that have internal lockers will also have a vent hole thro the floor. It may well have been blocked by some misguided soul wanting to stop draughts. There should also be vent holes under gas appliances.

As for laws, well they are more a good practice / safety guide but if you want some reading on the matter have a look at the "Act" that covers Pressure Systems & Transportable Gas Containers. Having been retired now around 10 years I cant remember its exact title.

Many dealers will change the "black LPG Hose" on an annual habitation service which should include a gas check by a suitably qualified Corgi Technician - your local BG Service Technicians qualification does not cover this section (according to them anyway) - thjis is good practice as it is far from kink resistant which is discussed in the act. 

If you use the correct BS/Euro Standard Orange Propane hose this should pass kink resistance tests and be ok for a longer period. The regulators we use I think should be changed around 3 years for safeties sake, they are only flimsy diecast affairs after all.

One of the problems with inspections is in the definition of the words Should & Will by dealer servicing staff.

Like others I am not going to enter an argument, but I do have a few years experience in the cylinder gas industry.


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

Where does all this leaking LPG come from??????


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## martkaz (May 9, 2005)

Looks like I've opened up a can of worms. :wink: anyway my problem or maybe not that much of a problem is solved....on further inspection I've found a slit in the floor of my gas locker right at the front that vents under the side skirts of the van.....So thanx guys for all your input and useful information, at least i know abit more about the gas systems in our vans now ...."what a great site this is!!"  

cheers Martyn

oh here's a piccy of the vent


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

I rest my case

Ken


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Pressure systems and transportable cylinders etc is an industry safety thing it does not apply to Joe Bloggs in his camper.

Consider this we frequent forums

Therefore we know there are people who have not got the slightest clue what they are doing, some things make us cringe they are so dangerous.

These same people are using gas appliances.

Check the records (I did for several Major countries) there have been no serious accidents involving LPG (ie fire, axplosion) , people have died from CO but gas fires and explosions nil nada none.

That is because LPG is very very safe, even handled badly it is not easy to come to grief.

I do not advocate being silly with LPG, there is far to much scaremongering about it though.

They are going to remove drop out holes as they are more trouble than they are worth, they are more likely to poisen you from vehicle fumes coming in than they ever are likely to save you from LPG leaking out.


George


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Ken 

rest what case? the one containing milk bottles and liquid petroleum Gas?

You are unreal


George


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

All we are talking about here is minimising the risks. To me it is common sense to insure there is a vent hole at the lowest point of a gas locker to vent a heavier than air flamable gas for dispersal. 

peedee


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

> All we are talking about here is minimising the risks. To me it is common sense to insure there is a vent hole at the lowest point of a gas locker to vent a heavier than air flamable gas for dispersal.


Again I ask. "WHERE IS ALL THIS LEAKING GAS COMING FROM?"

Now, think on this, did you know that the gas seeps thro the metal walls of the cylinder????? That will keep you worrying for a few years.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Dishmop said:


> > Again I ask. "WHERE IS ALL THIS LEAKING GAS COMING FROM?"
> 
> 
> I guess your one of these guys that gets it right first time and every time or never purchases a cylinder with a leaky valve ????
> ...


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peedee

Surely if it had a leaking valve there would be no gas left by the time you bought it?

Chris (dishmop) is a very experienced camper and I think that like me he believes most of the LPG dangers are OVER hyped. 

George


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## Jeffus (May 1, 2005)

Dishmop said:


> Clipped quote . . . Again I ask. "WHERE IS ALL THIS LEAKING GAS COMING FROM?"


Hi Dishmop, I think what the guys are trying to get across to you is that wherever there is a connection (hose/cylinder) there COULD always be the chance of a leak. Simple as that. HTH. Jeffus. 8)


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

> I guess your one of these guys that gets it right first time and every time or never purchases a cylinder with a leaky valve ????


If you bought a cylinder with a leaking valve, it wouldnt have any gas in it anyway would it.?

George has read my mind, knowing exactly what I and every body else on here would say.



> that wherever there is a connection (hose/cylinder) there COULD always be the chance of a leak. Simple as that.


Ever heard of turning the valve off before you disconnect anything??? Actually, I bet if I go out and have a look at my gas supply, I dont even have a jubilee clip securing the hose to the regulator. I have been fitting gas bottles for over 40 years and never known of a leak.

I have just converted my car to LPG and I am driving around with 80 litres of LGP in the boot. How much petrol do you have in your car? Ever worry about if its leaking or how dangerous it is when you fill up. NO, of course you dont.


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

Did you know that there are some manufacturers of your mega money camper vans who wont supply either a regulator or the hose, because then if you blow it up or somebody dies, they can say "we never connected to gas supply, the customer did it"


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Peedee
> 
> Surely if it had a leaking valve there would be no gas left by the time you bought it?
> 
> ...


Hi George, 
Overhyped maybe but it is all too easy to become complacent, probably more so with the experienced. Suppliers try to make the bits a pieces as safe as possible but they are not infallible and neither are the people that change the bottles. Perhaps I should have refered to a valve developing a leak?

peedee


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Peedee,

Don't be drawn in, let them carry on and make an even bigger fools of themselves, they will be judged bytheir own words.

The saying " hoisted by their own petard " comes to mind.

Ken


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## dodger148 (May 9, 2005)

George - you go your way and I will go mine (safely) - I know mine is right. 

Talk to a properly qualified Corgi Approved Techician (for caravans and motorhomes) and they will confirm what I have said

Leaks occur due to leaky cylinder valves, hose which is not diffusion resistant, or cracked, the use of Jubillee clips instead of non-reusable hose clips, and people putting PTFE tape around the regulator to cylinder valve joint 

The other thing I didnt mention on hose, is "Can you be sure the Black LPG hose is resistant to Pentane Attack" as is the correct type of Propane Hose


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## Jeffus (May 1, 2005)

KenS said:


> The saying " hoisted by their own petard " comes to mind.


I'm with you on this one Ken . . . I think it's a wind up by Dishmop.  Let 'em get on with it. Jeffus. 8)


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Ken

How can you dare to comment?, earlier in this thread you were hand bailing *Liquid* petroleum Gas from the bilges of a boat !! and then pouring it like water from one milk bottle to another and then setting it alight.

As stated earlier you cannot pour LPG it is not liquid when released into the atmosphere, after your previous nonsensical statements, How can you have the brass NECK to say we are making fools of ourselves.

Thats taking one foot out of your mouth only to make way for the other.

Ken please throw the spade away now the holes way to big and your making it worse.

George

Chris

They wont believe you when then spend £xx,000 on a new motorhome they honestly and truly believe that its all inspected by a Corgi, strange that none of them ever wonder where the Gas certificate is ?

Hands up those in possesion of a gas cert supplied with their new motorhome?

Re electric too how many of you have an electric socket in your bathroom at home (I mean a normal 240v not a shaver point) now have a look at a lot of new vans strange isnt it? do you think that it would pass 16th edition wiring regs? I have a copy listed on my web page take a look thru most motorhomes that I have checked would fail when tested against 16th edition wiring regs

George

Peedee

I havesaid several times here that we should not become complacent, niether should we be running round in a panic over what is basically a very safe system, I would say that we should all pay far more attention to CO which as killed many a gas user.

George


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Dodger,

I am afraid you will have to do better than that. The act you refer to is and industry transport thing and as nothing at all to do with campervans and motorhomes.

You even misquote the gas regs it should be a drop out hole in the floor of the compartment there are no requirements for vents in the door at all. BUT they are going to remove the drop out hole idea because of the risks from CO getting in from exhausts etc.

I am not suggesting anyone behaves in an irresponsable way. Many motorhomes have no gas locker at all its stored under bed boxes in flimsy plastic compartments very few IF ANY would pass a CORGI safety check, some of you are suffering from delusions of safety being built in by suppliers, the habitation checks check for CO safety, they may also pressure test for leaks luckily for you they do not ensure compliance with regs, why luckily ? because the manufacturer does not have to ensure it passes regs many bypass by just not fitting the regulator as Chris says it happens even on Very expensive MH's


George


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

> I think it's a wind up by Dishmop.  Let 'em get on with it. Jeffus.


I agree,. little point in carrying on with the debate. I have made my points
anyway.

peedee


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peedee

The point you made was the same point made by me in the very first response I made in this thread ie that the regs suggest having a hole in the bottom of the gas locker. For the Moment, all change very shortly.

Then Ken S went all "Alice in wonderland" on us.

Dishmop was making some valid points re Gas

To be honest you would be making a bigger impact on safety if we discussed chip fat fires ie something that is actually a danger over 10,000 injuries and deaths a year. compared to LPG deaths erm NIL serious Injuries Erm Nil again 

Fires and explosions over the last six years caused by LPG leaks erm NIL thats from the records of several major countries.

No that is not a reason to become complacent, but there are far greater dangers that we take for granted.

The other thing that is suggested is that lockers be fire resistant for 20 mins this bascally means a steel locker how many of you have a steel locker ?? but if having a hole makes you happy.

George


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

Anybpdy who knows of the history behind myseld and George will also know that I we do not get on, but on this occsaion I will agree that what he says is correct. I would LOVE to be able to prove him wrong but he's not.



> Perhaps I should have refered to a valve developing a leak?


 Er! somebody did refer to a leaky valve but don't know who.

I am truly at a complete loss to understand why you think that I am creating a "wind up", just how do you reach that assumption? Have I said anything anywhere to contradict what anybody has said, or given you misleading information, or is it because in reality you dont have the slightest idea what you are talking about and misunderstand what you are being/have been told.
I have stated a few facts, not in contradiction to anything that anybody else has said in this thread, but only hopefully to clear up one or two points.

If you readers dont wish to believe then I dont know why you ask in the first place.

If you need to ask then you dont know. If you dont know then you shouldnt be doing it.

The only time that a camper or caravan or boat has to have a corgi safety certificate is when they are used for renting out to the general public. Before each new rental period, the camper etc has to undergo a LPG system check.

]


> I agree,. little point in carrying on with the debate. I have made my points
> anyway.
> peedee


What point did you make? and "little point carry on with this debate"

I think that on such a high level safety issue as LPG in campers/caravans there is a very great need to carry on the debate, if only to dispell some of the myths and undue worries that some people have regarding gas.



> Talk to a properly qualified Corgi Approved Techician (for caravans and motorhomes) and they will confirm what I have said


 Er, is there such a classification?

And the LPG connecting hose is neoprene.


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## RobMD (May 9, 2005)

Reading through all the posts, I detect more than a hint of arrogance in both GT and Dishmops posts  8O .

Overall, this is an easy going site and it would be nice to keep it that way before the Mods have to step in!

Please remember that we are all motorhomers that (presumably) like our way of life. NONE of us know it all and we can learn from each other which is why these forums exist.
We come from all walks of life (and some of us have seen a lot of it) from Accountants to Zoo Keepers, with some being very practical and others academic.

If you air an Opinion, don't sulk if others don't agree, if it is an irrefutable fact, please give us the benefit of it without being patronising.



Incidentally, The Gas Locker of my van Is Metal (only Galv Plating admittedly) the door isn't, but it is sealed from the M/Home interior - and has drop-out holes at the lowest point.

Many liquified gases in vessels under pressure can be decanted into containers at room pressure, and will remain as a liquid until it has all boiled off.
To keep it liquid as long as poss. a small surface area is best, together with cool surroundings.
In the past, I have decanted liquid Freon into a large Baked Bean can lined with Kapok (before it was found to damage the ozone layer) in order to freeze down valve seats for shrink fitting (at sea, in the middle of nowhere on has to improvise).
I haven't tried it with Propane, but the principle is the same, so I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of pouring LPG from Milk Bottle to Milk Bottle.

Also of course, without Oxygen LPG will not ignite - mix with air and retire immediately!


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## Jeffus (May 1, 2005)

RobMD said:


> Clipped quote . . . Reading through all the posts, I detect more than a hint of arrogance in both GT and Dishmops posts  8O .
> 
> Overall, this is an easy going site and it would be nice to keep it that way before the Mods have to step in!
> 
> ...


Very well put, RobMD I agree with all you said and thanks for your thoughts and info on the LPG thread . . . very interesting, cheers, Jeffus. 8)


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Rob

Not arrogance, note after Kens earlier claim to be bailing out liquid LPG from a boat, I did not comment or even dismiss his claim. After Kens next Arrogant response, I did let rip.

LPG and air Only between 2% and 9% LPG, big leak is unlikely to ignite.

The dissapation rate in atmosphere is an "Instant" 270% increase in volume this is what the LPG companies say and is a primary reason for its safety.

LPG goes up with a whoosh, not a bang for the reasons above.

There are very few Corgis with the extra Mobile LPG qualification.

There are several people here repeating the same old wives tales and saying that they are facts.

I note that there as not been a rush of scanned gas certificates being published.

The point that we (Chris and I) have bought up here is that contrary to what most people assume your vans are not Built according to regulations. Most if not all have never had a corgi near them, unless he happened to be driving by.

Its the same with mains I have been in touch with a manufacturer whose vehicle was wired outside of 16th Edition, actually most are outside regs and would fail if inspected. The company concerned had a time served electrician solely for the mains, we (myself and said electrician) had some very interesting conversations.

Strange thing is that after talking to several other electricians and working thru the 16th edition, none not one pair agree on how it should be wired.

If you also add in the international regs it gets very confused. To me it seems that wiring according to Australian and American regs ( very similar and very safe ) would be safer and better than following 16th Edition.

London Underground Use Sterling Invertors, they also use RCD's on every one. Electricians would understand why this is a total waste of time.

Sometimes a little controversy is a good thing, especially if it gets people thinking or blows their Assumptions out off the water.

What we dont need is people getting annoyed and even less do we need people cheering from the side like its a playground fight.


George


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

I apologise if I seemed as if I ws being arrogant and giving the impression that "I know better then you" but if you look carefuly, you will see that at no time did I say anything to that effect. I didnt disagree with what anybody had said, I didnt say that anybody was wrong or mistaken. I simply stated a few facts. If you cant understand those facts well thats not my problem. If for some reason you dont agree with what I say then thats ok with me. 

Please point out to me where you believe that I have said somehting that you believe to be a wind up and I will attempt to rectify the situation.


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

> There should be vents in a gas cylinder compartment, be it in the door, or floor it should be at the lowest point as LPG finds the lowest point to travel.
> It should not vented into the van.
> Those vans that have internal lockers will also have a vent hole thro the floor. It may well have been blocked by some misguided soul wanting to stop draughts. There should also be vent holes under gas appliances.


Who says there SHOULD be?

and who says it "should not be vented to the van"?

If there is some law or regulation somewhere, why are there still vans being made that contravene these points?


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## 88915 (May 10, 2005)

*gas, gas ,gas*

Can we call an end to this now?


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## 89206 (May 16, 2005)

End what?

I thought somebody asked a question. I have only been trying to give an answer but was accused of being a wind-up merchant. 

If people cant understand what I am trying to say them I am prepared to spare some of my time to help them.

However, if there are those of you who for some reason dont wish to believe what they are told, then I cant understand why they bother to ask on here at all.


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Cor Blimey! All facts & clarity dishmop.....they don't like it up 'em see.............it's the last thing they be wantin' is facts..........they can't cope with 'em...........so, they'll have you down as a troublemaker.......... It's the quickest way around the problem that you & that Geo Teflon bloke created.................You'll be out on yer ear old son -- you mark my words

'motorhomefacts'..............Funny title ennit?


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## 88915 (May 10, 2005)

children, calm down!


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## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

OK Everyone, well firstly let me put across my views and hence the views of this website.

"I do not advocate anyone blocking up lpg vents, or that they are unecessary"

There thats it. No more on the subject. Those of you who believe otherwise then fair enough its your risk whether that risk is trivial or more important is another topic not open for conversation here.

As for the tone of this thread, i don't like the fact that we have some antagonistic posts here, this forum is for the CIVIL exchange of views, no name calling, no witty comments meant in sarcastic nature please.

This thread is now locked, I hope those who contributed gained some knowledge of importance.


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