# What Happened to commonsense and DEFRA



## Vennwood

You won't believe this - 

We were stopped coming back into UK last weekend by DEFRA on a routine Pet Passport check. We were told that our paperwork was not in order and had to wait while they decided what to do. We held up hundreds of travelers disembarking for around 25 mins.

Our crime - well in 2005 the issuing Vet had stamped our dogs passport in BLACK ink. All subsequent stamps were the correct colour - RED. We were issued with a failure to comply notice and told we would be reported to DEFRA HQ in Chelmsford. We pointed out that actually the offending black stamp had expired in 2007 and the new stamp was in fact RED. This cut no ice.

We have crossed through Dover 12 times in the past 4 years without a problem but now we have to get this sorted out before we can travel again

I find this incredible - penalised for a black expired stamp..........


----------



## b16duv

lunatics and assylum springs to mind.

David


----------



## locovan

Goodness we have 2 in red (english) but our French ones are in Blue
So what do we do now???
All our stamps are 2008-2009 so when did this come out.


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

Jobsworth, Give someone a cap and a title and instantly they change into brainless twonk Grannies description not mine


Dave P


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

Get a whitw one Mavis .. Very patriotic on both sides of the chanel

DAve P


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

What a load of (what's that thing which sits in a cistern and goes up and down with the water, but spelt slightly different).

Kev.


----------



## locovan

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> Get a whitw one Mavis .. Very patriotic on both sides of the chanel
> 
> DAve P


Thankyou thats the best answer yet.
I have got to contact DEFRA though as I wont be able to take the dog abroad again will I and it cost £300 by the time we finished to get this passport :evil:


----------



## Vennwood

I've actually written to DEFRA today asking what we can do about this ridiculous situation. I have to count to 10 after each sentence as I am so wound up about this stupidity. Also have an appointment with the issuing Vet this afternoon. I'll let you know when I get an answer

I should have known something was afoot when we checked in through SeaFrance as they now issue you with a new piece of paper that just says that you comply with the rules - more job creation.....


----------



## camper69

That's just stupid. Why don't they just contact the issuing vet to make sure he/she is still not doing it wrong.

Why does the colour of the ink matter?

Derek


----------



## Vennwood

locovan said:


> Goodness we have 2 in red (english) but our French ones are in Blue
> So what do we do now???
> All our stamps are 2008-2009 so when did this come out.


Clearly in or before 2005 as that was when our stamp was entered


----------



## locovan

So why is mine in Blue from the French vet March 2009 this has to sorted in France as well--- and boy wont the French love it --they already think we go to far with the after 24 hour before 48 hour rule.

I can see I will have to stow my Louis in the back of a lorry. :lol: :lol:


----------



## Vennwood

locovan said:


> So why is mine in Blue from the French vet March 2009 this has to sorted in France as well--- and boy wont the French love it --they already think we go to far with the after 24 hour before 48 hour rule.
> 
> I can see I will have to stow my Louis in the back of a lorry. :lol: :lol:


Hi Mavis,

I'm not sure what the position is with the French (or other countries) stamping the passport. DEFRA only said that the issuing Vet has to use red ink. They didn't mention the others. That said oddly enough all our "foreign" stamps are in blue/black and DEFRA didn't pick up on that.

I'll post the failure notice


----------



## Vennwood

Here is the notification


----------



## teemyob

*DEFRA*

I am currently having to deal with DEFRA with regards to Refrigerant Handling Certificates.

I Know exactly what you are up against.

Keeps them in a job though eh?


----------



## locovan

Vennwood said:


> locovan said:
> 
> 
> 
> So why is mine in Blue from the French vet March 2009 this has to sorted in France as well--- and boy wont the French love it --they already think we go to far with the after 24 hour before 48 hour rule.
> 
> I can see I will have to stow my Louis in the back of a lorry. :lol: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Mavis,
> 
> I'm not sure what the position is with the French (or other countries) stamping the passport. DEFRA only said that the issuing Vet has to use red ink. They didn't mention the others. That said oddly enough all our "foreign" stamps are in blue/black and DEFRA didn't pick up on that.
> 
> I'll post the failure notice
Click to expand...

Then this makes it a total waste of time if one can and one cant use a Black/Blue stamp.
As others are saying this is a JOBS worth cap winner.


----------



## Vennwood

Well just got back from the Vets and after phoning DEFRA and getting passed around from person to person here is the result.

DEFRA say the reason for requiring red is to prevent fraudulent photocopying (haven't they heard of colour copiers???)

They have decided to issue a new passport as it is difficult to overwrite the original stamp "without it looking like a forgery"

So I would ask all you Pets Passport holders to check that the ORIGINAL stamps for rabies and blood test are in RED as DEFRA are on the warpath.

There will be no charge to anyone that takes their Pet Passport back to their issuing vet for a replacement.

Hope this helps.


----------



## patp

OH NO 8O 

I have just checked Gypsy's passport and the last, and still current, stamp is in blue!!
All the previous ones are in red. 

It is valid until 26 Sept 2011. We are due to travel to France on 19th July too.

Anyone know any passport forgers??


----------



## patp

That's funny Vennwood our posts about forgery just crossed :lol: 

How do DEFRA know my vet won't charge? He is in private practice after all.


----------



## Vennwood

patp said:


> OH NO 8O
> 
> I have just checked Gypsy's passport and the last, and still current, stamp is in blue!!
> All the previous ones are in red.
> 
> It is valid until 26 Sept 2011. We are due to travel to France on 19th July too.
> 
> Anyone know any passport forgers??


There has to be a market here selling colour copiers on the black (or should that be Red) market  

Well Patp if you take the current passport down to your issuing Vet he will be able to change it and, according to DEFRA, the fault lies with the issuing Vet as DEFRA says it has been agreed for years that only red would suffice. Our Vet said we can collect the new passport on Wednesday so its worth as a minimun checking up just to be certain


----------



## GEMMY

Following on.....defra at quarantine and animal health have just stated to me...any colour stamp just NOT black.
[email protected] and 01245 358383.

tony


----------



## patp

I have been onto the DEFRA website and looked in the "Instructions to issuing vets" part and it says that 
"vets must stamp the passport in any colour other than Black".

Now mine is in blue so I SHOULD be ok but I am going to ring them and check.


----------



## 108370

can you confirm is this the stamp on Page 8 of the passport for the Rabies serological Test or is it the 3 yearly booster vaccination for rabies starting on Page 4.of the passport.

Ours is red on page 8 and green for all the booster jabs


----------



## patp

If the bit about "any colour but black" is right then green will be ok too


----------



## Vennwood

reeventu said:


> can you confirm is this the stamp on Page 8 of the passport for the Rabies serological Test or is it the 3 yearly booster vaccination for rabies starting on Page 4.of the passport.
> 
> Ours is red on page 8 and green for all the booster jabs


That is correct it is the rabies serological test and any booster that can't be black

They didn't mention to me anything about other colours other than black is not allowed so I guess green, purple, etc. is ok also


----------



## locovan

Vennwood said:


> Well just got back from the Vets and after phoning DEFRA and getting passed around from person to person here is the result.
> 
> DEFRA say the reason for requiring red is to prevent fraudulent photocopying (haven't they heard of colour copiers???)
> 
> They have decided to issue a new passport as it is difficult to overwrite the original stamp "without it looking like a forgery"
> 
> So I would ask all you Pets Passport holders to check that the ORIGINAL stamps for rabies and blood test are in RED as DEFRA are on the warpath.
> 
> There will be no charge to anyone that takes their Pet Passport back to their issuing vet for a replacement.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Well done for all your hard work on this but it just shows how the Vets dont know all the rules on these passports.


----------



## Vennwood

I think the real answer to this is in the title of this thread - commonsense - where has it gone?

If in today's world they can't tell a photocopy from the real thing and if they really think forgers don't know how to use a colour copier well there is no hope for us


----------



## THEPOET

locovan said:


> Vennwood said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well just got back from the Vets and after phoning DEFRA and getting passed around from person to person here is the result.
> 
> DEFRA say the reason for requiring red is to prevent fraudulent photocopying (haven't they heard of colour copiers???)
> 
> They have decided to issue a new passport as it is difficult to overwrite the original stamp "without it looking like a forgery"
> 
> So I would ask all you Pets Passport holders to check that the ORIGINAL stamps for rabies and blood test are in RED as DEFRA are on the warpath.
> 
> There will be no charge to anyone that takes their Pet Passport back to their issuing vet for a replacement.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> 
> 
> Well done for all your hard work on this but it just shows how the Vets dont know all the rules on these passports.
Click to expand...

Hi, only just come across this thread, but it seems to me........ that DEFRA should be going after the issuing Vet not the poor bloody infantry i.e. the pet owner. but as many others have said Common Sense has long flown out of the window. Its what I call a "for Gods Sake" moment! its rare that I get past the first couple of pages of the Sunday papers without a FGS moment :roll:


----------



## locovan

Can I be forgiven for bumping this up as it really is a very Important subject


----------



## barrosa

just checked ours stamps red or blue so will be ok for the autum tour


----------



## Penquin

Does being in possession of an illegaly issued passport render the passport holder to prosecution? 

Surely the vet is the person who is liable for failing to issue the correct certificate and is therefore in breach of contract for failing to supply goods of a merchantable quality i.e. as the colour is wrong it is not valid but you have paid for it! 8O 

Just my thoughts about a ludicrous bit of bureaucratic nonsense, I am beginning to see why those little French ladies took up knitting as the heads rolled! :lol: 

Dave


----------



## patp

Perhaps a note could be added to the stickies on Pet Passports?


----------



## Vennwood

Penquin said:


> Does being in possession of an illegaly issued passport render the passport holder to prosecution?
> 
> Surely the vet is the person who is liable for failing to issue the correct certificate and is therefore in breach of contract for failing to supply goods of a merchantable quality i.e. as the colour is wrong it is not valid but you have paid for it! 8O
> 
> Just my thoughts about a ludicrous bit of bureaucratic nonsense, I am beginning to see why those little French ladies took up knitting as the heads rolled! :lol:
> 
> Dave


Hi Dave,

I'm guessing here that this is why the Vets are issuing replacement passports FOC - its their mistake

I still can't get my head around why black ink isn't acceptable - what happens if the DEFRA person is colour blind? :? :?

Perhaps the stamps should be in brail


----------



## Briarose

patp said:


> Perhaps a note could be added to the stickies on Pet Passports?


Thats a good idea it would be even better merged to the end of the passport topic :wink: off to check my passports now.


----------



## Briarose

Checked as I probably would have woken up at silly o clock to check if I hadn't done it this evening, all mine are in red. Thanks for drawing our attention to the potential problem.


----------



## Vennwood

Well I finally got my reply from DEFRA -

Dear Mr M,

Thank you for your letter of the 5th July 2009

I can confirm that it is a requirement that Official Veterinarians (OV's) use their official stamp in any colour other than black.

I would recommend that you ask your vet to re-issue a new passport that clearly shows all the necessary preparation. The new passport should include OV stamps that are not black.

Yours etc.

Chelmsford Animal Health Office

So there you have it from DEFRA - no black stamps. Still doesn't say why or what the difference is or means. 

Bureaucracy gone mad in my humble oppinion


----------



## zulurita

Vennwood said:


> You won't believe this -
> 
> We were stopped coming back into UK last weekend by DEFRA on a routine Pet Passport check. We were told that our paperwork was not in order and had to wait while they decided what to do. We held up hundreds of travelers disembarking for around 25 mins.
> 
> Our crime - well in 2005 the issuing Vet had stamped our dogs passport in BLACK ink. All subsequent stamps were the correct colour - RED. We were issued with a failure to comply notice and told we would be reported to DEFRA HQ in Chelmsford. We pointed out that actually the offending black stamp had expired in 2007 and the new stamp was in fact RED. This cut no ice.
> 
> We have crossed through Dover 12 times in the past 4 years without a problem but now we have to get this sorted out before we can travel again
> 
> I find this incredible - penalised for a black expired stamp..........


WELL! This is NEWS to me.

I have Jabulile's Pets Passport in front of me and was issued in 2001.( That is the original paperwork was, the Blue passport came out later)

1. There is NO issuing stamp and no page for this! (pages 1 to 3)

2. Page 4 is for vaccination against rabies. the vets stamp is a bluey/green stamp for ALL 5 entries.

3. Page 8 Rabies Serological Test. again vets stamp is blue/green.

4. Page 10 onwards Tick Treatment. all French vets have used Black veterinary stamps.

5. Page 16 onwards. echinococcus Treatment (worming) again all vets have used black vet stamps.

6. Page 22 onwards. Other Vaccinations: dogs usual yearly vaccinations, Spain a green stamp, UK bluey/green stamps but one blue stamp.

7. Page 28 onwards Clinical Examination. All black stamps in France and one UK bluey/green.

so where is the issuing page?

we do have the original paper work, BEFORE the blue pets passports came about. Just checked the Pets 1 paperwork and the official OV stamp is in the bluey/green.

Are there new or different pages in more recent blue pets passports?

we only came back through Dover on Sunday and used the ferry (usually go by shuttle) and had no problems. (mind you the chap at book in didn't even scan our dog but just checked her Blue passport, or rather he gave it to someone behind him)


----------



## Vennwood

Rita,

I *NEVER* said there was an "issuing stamp" - I said "*issuing vet*" i.e the vet that issued the passport in the first place.
The stamps that the vet enters for the vaccination Against Rabies (Page 4 on the blue passport) have to be in any colour EXCEPT black - so if yours are blue and green then you are ok.

The Rabies Serological Test (page 8 ) also has to be any colour except black - again you appear to be ok

Tick treatment etc. (page 10 onwards) can be in any colour, including black

If you look on the DEFRA web site you will see the details. It appears that some vets haven't followed the DEFRA requirements, ours being one such vet and over the past 10 days we have been contacted by 4 other pet owners who were in the same boat as ourselves and we all have been issued a new passport FOC.


----------



## zulurita

Vennwood said:


> Rita,
> 
> I *NEVER* said there was an "issuing stamp" - I said "*issuing vet*" i.e the vet that issued the passport in the first place.
> The stamps that the vet enters for the vaccination Against Rabies (Page 4 on the blue passport) have to be in any colour EXCEPT black - so if yours are blue and green then you are ok.
> 
> The Rabies Serological Test (page 8 ) also has to be any colour except black - again you appear to be ok
> 
> Tick treatment etc. (page 10 onwards) can be in any colour, including black
> 
> If you look on the DEFRA web site you will see the details. It appears that some vets haven't followed the DEFRA requirements, ours being one such vet and over the past 10 days we have been contacted by 4 other pet owners who were in the same boat as ourselves and we all have been issued a new passport FOC.


My mistake Vennwood.

I was looking for the wrong thing. Yes reading your post about Defras comments mine seems to be ok. We always carry the original paper work with us as well as the Blue pets passport. I was getting concerned that it needed to be in Red! Now reassured all ok so long as its not black.


----------



## toojo

I came back through Calais-Dover in July without a problem.My U.K. stamps are blue and the French ones black.Will this be a problem going back this year.John


----------



## goldi

\afternoon folks,


From what I can gather I reckon you will be O.K.





norm


----------



## patp

The reason they must not be black is that they could be a copy. It would depend on how nit picking the official wanted to be. Technically the passport is not valid.


----------



## erneboy

Typical UK bureaucratic nonsense in my opinion, job's worths. We have two dogs one with a Spanish issued passport and one with a UK one, both stamps on page 4 four from the issuing vet done in blue, but both have booster stamps done in black. We will have to wait and see if these are OK.

In my business I had dealings with DEFRA, what a shower if incompetents they were, Alan.


----------



## locovan

So I would ask all you Pets Passport holders to check that the ORIGINAL stamps for rabies and blood test are in RED as DEFRA are on the warpath.

There will be no charge to anyone that takes their Pet Passport back to their issuing vet for a replacement.

Venwood did say this on an early posting


----------



## zulurita

locovan said:


> So I would ask all you Pets Passport holders to check that the ORIGINAL stamps for rabies and blood test are in RED as DEFRA are on the warpath.
> 
> There will be no charge to anyone that takes their Pet Passport back to their issuing vet for a replacement.
> 
> Venwood did say this on an early posting


According to DEFRA any colour but not Black.


----------



## zulurita

If DEFRA are so hot on this, why do they not insist the return to UK treatment (Tick and worm ) are also stamped any colour but not black!

I see the French vets tend to use black stamps for this. After all they could be copied as well! If that is DEFRA's arguement.

So far we haven't had any issues coming back to UK regarding that.

Will have to make sure Lindiwe's new Pets Passport is done correctly.


----------

