# Advice on panel van choice



## GeoffCrowther

Hi all
I'm new here and new to motorhomes so forgive my ignorance.
My wife and I plan to buy a motorhome as soon as a house we own is sold.
We've been researching since October last year and have veered from, initially, a compact front lounge coachbuilt (A/S Nuevo or similar) to a rear lounge panel van.
Our change of thought is due to my wife's preference for a narrow body, thinking of single track roads in NW Scotland, and I like the look, ie smooth, neat body and a colour other than white! I feel it would be easier to keep the exterior clean too.
We have two dogs (a boxer and a lab) but no kids and feel a rear lounge would give the hounds more free floor space at night.
At present we're considering Auto-Sleeper Warwick Duo/Marquis Sussex Duo or Swift Mondial RF/Autocruise Rhythm. Without spending a fortune no other 'van seems to fit the bill but do correct me if I've missed something.
A fundamental question is, how do either or both these 'vans cope with serious cold (we might go to the Alps in winter for example)? I know tanks can be winterised but am more concerned about insulation in body/roof/floor. I've read that Auto-Sleepers' single athermic glazing seems to cope ok.
Would we, in fact, be better off with a coachbuilt? Are they substantially better insulated?
We think we'll buy new, or nearly-new if availability is an issue.
I'd be grateful for any advice on our choices so far, and, indeed, any advice for newcomers.
Cheers
Geoff


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## Jented

Hi.
We have had a PVC,and found it handy to get in places,the rear lounge means you can have the rear doors open,as well as the sliding door and you and the dogs have more freedom. Thats the stumbling block ( In MY opinion). Make sure the beds are at least 6ft.long and check locker space,because in a PVC electrical/heating units take up a lot of space in an allready smaller space,and the wash room is at best a compromise,in a PVC.
With the slightly larger M/homes from A/sleeper/Auto trail/Auto cruise,plus ALL (PC) the others,that little bit extra room is worth a fortune,there are members on here with very large units,and i have read,and i would have to agree,nobody really wants to go smaller. If you look around,large commercial vehicles get every where,and even the supermarket chains can deliver your goods to the door in "larger" vans.
We have gone one size up from a PVC,but for another reason,not because of size." What will carry a lot,will carry a little",NOT!! the other way round. Don't let tiredness,rule a hasty choice.Best of luck.
Jented.


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## GeoffCrowther

Thank you for those thoughts Jented. That reinforces my thought to go for the long rather than medium wheelbase.
Cheers
Geoff


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## DABurleigh

Well I am a PVC fan (though will need something quite different once retirement arrives) but insulation is harder in a PVC. I would have doubts about its suitability for regular skiing trips.

Dave


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## Lesleykh

We have a PVC by Devon Conversions on a Renault Master base - 5.9 m long.

We are off on Sunday for a year in Europe with our collie cross. There's enough space for us. It has a rear lounge and a forward seating area - it's a 3 berth - BUT... you'd only fit sleeping in this van if you are under 6ft as the rear bed goes widthway across the van. I'm 5ft, so not a problem for me, but at 5ft 8" my husband says his feet touch the wall.

As to cold, we were in Brecon in Feb with thick snow and were warm. We didn't even have the heating on at night. I guess the Alps in Winter would be a lot colder though.

Lesley


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## Mike48

This one here has a rear lounge at a reasonable price.

http://www.devonconversions.com/

The main difficulty is that you have a long trek if warranty work is needed. In the end I opted for a Swift Mondial RL.

But I would check out the various judder threads before making your final choice if its on a Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen base. I opted for an automatic gearbox to avoid the possibilities of judder but the downside to this option is the price penalty.


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## GeoffCrowther

Thanks Gelathae
I note your point about warranty work. I've read some stuff that suggest that, with some makes, warranty claims can be a problem if you didn't buy from the dealer. By that, I mean your nearest most convenient one.
We're relatively close to the Swift/Autocruise site. I'm not sure though if it's acceptable to return to the manufacturer with problems, rather than the dealer. I'm especially curious as to how this would work if I bought from a dealer at, say, the opposite end of the country. I say this because my wife and I share an impatient nature. We're frustrated enough at the difficulty selling the house and, once that's happened, I really can't see us waiting the 6 or 8 months often quoted for an order. I'd prefer to trawl the internet, find something we'd like, go and look then return, perhaps by train, to collect after PDI.
That's purely hypothetical of course, since we do have several dealers up here in the frozen north (north Derbyshire, bordering on Lancashire, Cheshire, West and South Yorkshire). Any thoughts on this route for purchase, with reference to warranty repairs?
Still love to hear from anyone else with experiences in the cold. By the way, we're not skiers - my Alps suggestion was just for the sake of argument. We're hillwakers & mountaineers.
And thanks everyone for all those useful points so far.
Cheers
Geoff


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## Mike48

GeoffCrowther said:


> Thanks Gelathae
> I note your point about warranty work. I've read some stuff that suggest that, with some makes, warranty claims can be a problem if you didn't buy from the dealer. By that, I mean your nearest most convenient one.
> We're relatively close to the Swift/Autocruise site. I'm not sure though if it's acceptable to return to the manufacturer with problems, rather than the dealer. I'm especially curious as to how this would work if I bought from a dealer at, say, the opposite end of the country. I say this because my wife and I share an impatient nature. We're frustrated enough at the difficulty selling the house and, once that's happened, I really can't see us waiting the 6 or 8 months often quoted for an order. I'd prefer to trawl the internet, find something we'd like, go and look then return, perhaps by train, to collect after PDI.
> That's purely hypothetical of course, since we do have several dealers up here in the frozen north (north Derbyshire, bordering on Lancashire, Cheshire, West and South Yorkshire). Any thoughts on this route for purchase, with reference to warranty repairs?
> Still love to hear from anyone else with experiences in the cold. By the way, we're not skiers - my Alps suggestion was just for the sake of argument. We're hillwakers & mountaineers.
> And thanks everyone for all those useful points so far.
> Cheers
> Geoff


By getting warranty work done I meant, if you opted for a Devon Aztec for example and lived in the South of England you would have 2 choices. You could either buy the vehicle direct from the factory or through their single agent. Neither would be satisfactory for me as the shortest I would have to travel to get warranty work done would be around 200 miles. Devon Conversions are based in the North East so in your case you would buy from the factory.

For most people though you buy from the dealer and not the factory. Swift/Autocruise/Autosleepers - as do most manufacturers - sell their vans through appointed agents.

In the end you will have to buy the vehicle from a dealer that has one as panel van conversions are normally in fairly short supply. However, if you were to buy your vehicle from a national dealer such as Marquis they could ship one to you from one of their other sites and you would deal with the dealer that is nearest to where you live. But you cannot always guarantee that the one you want is available. I had to wait 6 months for mine.


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## p1nkie

Hi there, we bought an Autocruise Accent in Dec 09 from Lowdhams (near Notts) it has rear lounge with a raised floor for extra storage. It has insulated tanks and terrific heater (gas/electric) that coped very well with the recent winter. It's on the Peugeot 6m pvc. I've noticed that new prices have jumped by more than £3k since we bought ours tho

Guy


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## GeoffCrowther

Thanks Guy. That sounds very positive. Quite like the look of the Accent but, on balance, we think we'd prefer the single bed option, mainly for lazy lounging! Good to hear you've found it warm enough though.
Cheers
Geoff


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## Jented

Hello again G/C.
I know this is silly,but as you are walker/hikers,you will probably be off the beaten track,make sure whatever you buy has a spare wheel,lots of the modern vans do not. It's perhaps only me,but i want to be able to still travel in outer Mongolia at midnight on a Sunday,flat tyre or not lol,and i think it's a "must have" in Spain,we allways carry one,but the "Spain" experts, can put us both straight on this matter.
Jented.


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## rolyk

We occasionally use our Warwick Duo in the winter and don't have a problem with condensation on the windows. I'm not suggesting we don't get any, but what we do get is minimal and easily cleaned off with a single kitchen wipe. The Silver Screen keeps the windscreen fairly free of condensation and we usually get a small amount along the base of the screen.

The Truma Combi heater can pump out 4Kw on gas so you'll never be cold! On hookup it's 2Kw which is usually adequate unless the outside temperature is well below freezing.

As the water tanks are underslung they're bound to be prone to freezing and the fresh water would benefit from insulating and a heating element installed. Saying that, we've never experienced any problems but our winters have been confined to the UK. 

I'm not sure whether I'd be happy to share it two largish dogs though. But plenty do and I'm biased, not being a dog lover! There would be ample space for them to bed down behind the cab seats in front of the side door.

Our 12 month old van doesn't judder in reverse, but it's not entirely happy being reversed due to the high gearing. But unless I'd read all the adverse publicity about reversing I'd wouldn't have considered it a problem. It's better than our previous Transit which juddered quite badly on soft ground. A new vehicle will have the modified gearbox which has significantly improved the reversing.

For us, it's the perfect van. Our selection of vehicle was restricted by us not being able to park a coachbuilt on the drive without upsetting the neighbours who might well have invoked a restrictive covenant. My reckoning was that the Warwick Duo was an attractive enough vehicle to be acceptable and we've had no problems in that respect. 

Roly


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## teemyob

*PVC*

Mercedes Sprinter

My Choice/Recommendation


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## plasticplumber

We have used our Mondial down to minus 4 with no problems with the cold. The heating is more than adequate. I was concerned about the underslung uninsulated unheated water tanks and I would have these modified If expecting to regularly use the van in sub zero conditions.
We only have internal screens so have encountered condensation on the front windscreen in cold conditions. My view of this is that this is the safest place for condensation to occur and the windscreen is in fact acting as a dehumidifier in these conditions.
The moisture content is in the air and will be distributed throughout the van unless you have a cold spot. wiping the screen is no problem compared to condensation and possible mould in other parts of the van,


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## Chris_s

We have a Wildax Constellation and while this is not a rear lounge version, I guess if you are willing to ask, discuss and negotiate you may find that Wildax will build a PVC to your spec. Take a look at their website Wildax Motorhomes. Duncan and Chris are very helpful and welcome you to their workshop in Keighley by appointment. You can also hire one of their vans, which gives an opportunity to 'try before you buy'!

We love ours and have never found anything we like better but most motorhomers will have their own specific needs and wants from a motorhome whatever the size. Hope you find something to meet your specific needs.
Chris_s


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## tubbytuba

Have you had a look at 'Vantage'? Great vans, excellent insulation, rear lounge, excellent after care etc etc.
And if price is a problem they often have ex demo models at reduced prices, worth a look.


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## hiker

We've progressed from tent to A/S Symbol to A/S Nuevo to Murvi Morello ('08, shiny silver-blue!). We thought originally that the Nuevo ticked all the boxes, but we missed the driveability/versatility of a PVC - & the big sliding side door, to leave open to admire the view at the end of the day! The Morello gives a much greater feeling of space internally, compared with the Nuevo, because of the L-shaped seating, rather than 2 seats facing, & find we can both collapse & lounge better than in the Nuevo. We do use it all year (though haven't yet exposed it to continental Europe - or even Scottish - extreme winter temperatures). We use external & internal screen covers, & a small oil-filled radiator overnight if we have hook-up. The diesel Eberspacher heater has the ability to keep the van far hotter than we'd ever want it to be, so is excellent. The cold water tank is inside the rear door, behind the fridge, & the pipes seem well insulated - no problems so far, though we've had partial freezes on both previous vans in Yorkshire. 

Having said all this, we did see a couple with 2 large dogs in a Morello, & it did seem a bit tight, though we're not dog-people so are biased! I can't really see that any of the PVC's would have much more floor space with the bed in use? We've had an adult sleeping on the floor in our "kitchen", but that was a one-off!


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## JohnH

Like RolyK I too have an Auto-Sleepers Warwick Duo. It was chosen for the fact that, as a six footer I have problems finding single beds long enough in panel vans. I can stretch out no problems. The build quality is excellent, we bought it from a dealer with branches all over England and the payload is also very good. We spent Christmas in Dulverton with freezing cold weather and were as warm as toast. The only thing was that we used bottled water to perform all of the needs that a tap would do and the waste pipe was left open into a container. Good look with your search.
JohnH


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## b16duv

If you are serious about going to the Alps in winter, have a look Here

Concorde used to do a PVC but it's no longer listed. Hymer car can be seen Here

I like the euramobil, had a coachbuilt and it was very well insulated.

David


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## hiker

The PVCs with more floor space 'cos there's a drop-down bed are the La Strada Nova & Regent

http://www.lastrada-mobile.de/?languageid=2


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## GeoffCrowther

Thanks to all for your advice. We looked at a Rhythm yesterday and a Warwick Duo today. On balance, at the moment, we prefer the Duo due to better storage provision, better hob, bigger fridge, better washroom. But, of course, that just our opinion. We're aware of no insulation on the fresh water tank but that can be corrected if necessary. We really like the look of the Duo, especially the black glass. It looks quite swish (in our opinion). 
But really grateful for the input from you folks. It was enough to persuade me to buy a subscription just now.
Now all we have to do is sell the house. It's been for ale for 18 months and we've dropped the price three times already. Oh well! What a time to choose to sell! Actually, we didn't. The house was left to my wife after the passing of her, much missed, Mum. She still feels very sad but we both believe the purchase of a lovely motorhome will make for a terrific memorial to her Mum & Dad, both of whom loved travel.
Thanks again all!
Cheers
Geoff


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## Kipper

Sorry Geoff for coming to this late - been away travelling.

I have a pvc for many of the same reasons that you quote - narrower for country lanes, not a big white lump etc etc. Mine is an I H Campers rear lounge version and prior to that had an autosleeper Symbol. Both have beds where you sleep across the van so the previous points re being 6ft or under are valid. 

I have one large dog (and one cat!) and there's ample room. The bed when made up (and we often leave it made up during the day - one of the advantages of a rear lounge version) forms a "kennel" under the bed where Abby normally sleeps but she also has another bed up between/in front of the cab seats.

I use the van year round and am as snug as the proverbial bug. You do need external silver screens for the windscreen and cab windows - vital for winter use. Don't get a drop of condensation in present van but it has much better insulation than the autosleeper which was a little cold and you got a lot of condensation on the bare metal around the rear and side doors. Not a problem with the IH van as all bare metal is covered and they replace the original rear doors with a patented rear panel to enable full wrap around seating in the lounge. The biggest advantage with the IH van is its huge boot which swallows a vast amount of kit - chairs, windbreaks, skis, surf boards, wetsuits, walking boots and a whole lot more!

Been in the van for sustained periods of -10 to -12 degrees and plenty warm enough - the (insulated) tanks did start to freeze at that temperature but don't seem to have a problem at around -6 or so. Thinking about getting tank heaters to solve this problem (or could just carry bottled water).

Appreciate that new IH vans may be out of your price range - but would suggest you check out some second hand ones. IH usually have quite a few at their Knottingley base as people trade their old vans in.

HTH and good luck with the house sale.


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## The-Clangers

Bit biased toward Vantage Motorhomes as we have one. Spent some time looking and got down to IH or Vantage. Vantage had a nearly new one at a good price, so we went for it. 

No regrets, build quality is excellent and after sales is superb. If you phone Scott to ask a question, it is a welcoming chat you get.

I am 6ft 1in and my feet touch the other side of the van, but you can get one (Vantage Neo) with 2 x singles, or 1 x super king size bed, so room not a problem.

Very cosy with gas/electric heating and good insulation. In fact it even has a fan heater built in with a remote control. So if you want a quick blast of heat in the morning (if on hook up) you dont even need to get out of bed, just point the remote and switch it on. Heats the van up very quickly.

Vans come with external Silver Screen and have never had a drop of condensation. Also all windows (apart from Windscreen) are double glazed, original van single glazed rear windows replaced with double glazing.

Only downside for us is storage, as we would have liked to carry a bit more. But that is the trade off with a smaller van, and we do get 33.8mpg overall.

David


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## GeoffCrowther

Hi and thanks to both Kipper & David.
Interestingly, being right at the north end of Derbyshire, we're quite close to both Vantage & IH. I believe Vantage are in Leeds.
They both look good, if a bit on the expensive side, but, as you'll see on my other thread, I really want to source a van a soon as we have cash available. So, we may consider second hand if exactly what we want isn't easily available. In short we might considr either of these makes.
Thanks for the helpful & useful comments guys.
Cheers
Geoff


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## rowley

As Chris pointed out, it is worth having a look at Wildax. Duncan is so enthusiastic and helpful. My only gripe with my Aurora Leisure is the washroom, a large person would find it difficult to sit on the loo.


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## Steamdrivenandy

Been there, done that.

We started motorhoming with a new Horizons Unlimited Innovation 1 which we bought specifically because it had a 2ft deep rear garage and a custom made dog crate fitted across between the rear wheel arches. Innovations are sold by Roy Wood Transits in Reading but are built at the HU factory in Tamworth. They can be on 3 different lengths of Ford Transit (ours was the short wheelbase) and two Mercedes Sprinters. They are the cousin to HU's Cavarno which doesn't have a garage but has a washroom and oven instead.

Recently HU launched two longer length Cavarno's so they may well now be able to make an Innovation with a 2ft deep garage and a washroom and oven if that's what you want.

We purchased the Innovation as a means to travel to dog shows and either stay on site or nearby and avoid the 'red eye' 4am starts. You wouldn't believe the stuff we crammed into such a small van. The folding dog grooming trolley and puppy pen plus folding chairs all fitted on top of the dog crate and the hook up cable, levelling blocks and hoses fitted in between the crate ends and side of the van. In addition we fitted the dog grooming bag, Remoska and a few other bits in the back there.

Having HU's factory at Tamworth was a help for warranty and upgrade work as we lived in NY at the time.

After two years we realised that we liked motorhoming and found we were spending up to three weeks away in the van and at times we felt stir crazy.

So we looked for something bigger, but still capable of fitting on our drive.

All the Tempo's, Rhythm's, Warwick's, Mondial's, Vantages were starting to appear and we inspected each one carefully.

We feel strongly that dogs in vans need to be contained, otherwise they're a potential danger to themselves, us and other road users. So the van had to allow some form of crateage. It also had to allow the dogs some room at night and have the ability to store all their gear. Most panel vans can't meet one or more of those requirements. 

That's when we started looking at Van vans. There's the Hymer Van, Hobby Van, Knaus Van, Burtsner Travel Van, Autocruise Sports Star, and Adria Compact etc. We inspected them all. They were the same length as the ubiquitous X250 panel vans but 6ins wider (but still 6ins narrower than your 'normal' motorhome). They all had a rear 'fixed' transverse double bed with a large garage underneath for the dog equipment and driveaway awning, silver screens, even bikes etc. 

As we inspected we crossed various ones of the list. Mrs SDA doesn't do ladders so those with a ladder got the heave ho. Double beds with windows at the head end are just wrong as you end up trying to read a book with your head tangled in blinds and window fasteners. One's with spotlights that impaled your cranium got scratched off. Models with a blank bulkhead between hab. area and garage were no no's as well.

Eventually there was only one still standing. The Adria Compact. It had steps up to the bed (and an idiosyncratic, triple purpose lit up pole). It had a big cupboard in the bulkhead (used by the dogs as a replacement crate when we're pitched). It has a proper shower screen and not a horrible shower curtain that follows you round the washroom. It's got more storage than we've ever been able to fill. It's got an easily removable table that stores in the garage whilst we're in transit. It's replaced by a folding canvas dog crate that's just big enough to fit snugly behind the cab seats. The two dogs love it in there. We've used it in very frosty conditions and been snug and with a 120 litre inboard fresh tank and a heated 120 litre outboard waste tank we've not had any freezing probs. 

And the only build quality issue was that a metal press stud on the shower screen retaining strap broke first trip out and we had to use a pipe cleaner as a substitute. Compare that to the tales of woe on MHF from owners of so called 'prestige' brands. 

Our only regret is that we didn't wait another year and then we'd have had the choice of the Compact SL version with two longitudinal single beds in the back. A few feet longer but more convenient AND you still get THE POLE!

HTH Good luck in your search

SDA

BTW if you're interested in the Compact ours might be for sale.


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## GeoffCrowther

Update to this thread:
Finally, after two long years, we've sold the house.
Plus, we've been very lucky with our van search.
Jut two days after accepting the offer on the house we visited the Cheshire outdoor show and found that Spinney Motorhomes, our nearest Auto Sleepers dealer, had not just one, but two Warwick Duos in stock AND they kindly offered to keep one for us for a deposit which they would refund if our house sale fell through.
So, on Weds this week, I'm scheduled to collect our shiny, new silver Warwick Duo.
The van's got all the bells and whistles; cab air con, cruise control, alloy wheels, reversing camera. We're having seat swivels, an alarm and a box fitted on a Fiamma bike rack.
Roll on Weds and let the adventures commence. Already planning Scandinavia next summer but lots of UK travel before that.
Thanks again to all of you who added helpful comments.
And watch out for lots of daft novice-type questions from me on here.
Cheers
Geoff


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## Steamdrivenandy

Congrats Geoff, it just shows persistence pays off.

Mind I can understand why you want a storage box and an alarm, but I'm still puzzling over what you're going to do with swivel seats on a bike rack :lol: 

Andy


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