# Help do I need a c1 driving licence



## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

I have seen a van for sale with a gross weight of 6000kgs on an Iveco with a towing limit of 3500kgs.

Being an old fart I can drive upto 7500. Plus 750 trailer.

So for the Iveco do I need a C1 or what ever hgv licence ?

Thanks roy


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## finyar (May 25, 2008)

C1 is what you need in my view

Regards
Raymond


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

When did you pass your driving test?

tony


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

If you passed your test prior to some date in 1997.

You can drive the Motorhome, no problem.

As I understand the law however. You cannot drive anything over 7500kG .

You can however drive and tow a combined train weight of 8250kG's.

So if your unit is 6000kG, the maximum you can tow is 2250kG, not the 9,500kG that you suggest is permissible.

In other words, you cannot tow the 3500kG max. You can tow a braked trailer of 2250kG.

That is as I understand it. Some may haver other interpretations or understandings of the law.

TM
(E&OE) 8)


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## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

I passed my test before 1997, so I can drive upto 7.5 ton plus 750 kg.
However I have been told, it's not what the weight is,it's what the capacity is. So in this case because you could load the van upto 6 ton and then tow a further 3.5 ton you need a c1.

You could have a lorry that's capable of carrying 18 tons, loaded with a match box, and you would still need an hgv.

I am really not sure. Where's mrplod ?

Roy


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

Concerning Motorhome driving.
At the age of 70, if you wish to drive a motorhome weighing more than 3.5 tons, you require a C1, assuming you were already entitled to drive more than 3.5 tons.
This must be renewed every 3 years and will include a medical that will cost around £100.
The rules regarding eligibility to drive heavy motorhomes is changing in December, so watch this space.

Alan


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Also replied to the OP in the "Downrate a Towing limit" thread.

See this Govt website:

https://www.gov.uk/old-driving-licence-categories

Peter


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

rosalan said:


> The rules regarding eligibility to drive heavy motorhomes is changing in December, so watch this space.
> 
> Alan


Are you referring to the the C1 test? As far as I know there will be no weight changes?

peedee


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## p-c (Oct 27, 2007)

Hi
If you have "grandfather rights" for a C1 licence please do make sure that it is actually on the licence. The DVLA have a habit of leaving categories off. This means that although morally you can drive legally you can't.
p-c


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Just a small addition to the discussion:

C1+E with 'Grandfather Rights' entitlement has a top weight limit of 8250kgs Gross Combination Weight.

C1+E after taking the test is up to 12000kg Gross Combination Weight.

Gross Combination weight is also referred to as gross Train Weight.

Peter


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## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

listerdiesel said:


> Just a small addition to the discussion:
> 
> C1+E with 'Grandfather Rights' entitlement has a top weight limit of 8250kgs Gross Combination Weight.
> 
> ...


So just to be clear, I have grandfather rights, but to drive a mh with a gross weight of 6000kg and towing weight of 3500 kg I would need to take the test ?

Thanks roy


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

takeaflight said:


> So just to be clear, I have grandfather rights, but to drive a mh with a gross weight of 6000kg and towing weight of 3500 kg I would need to take the test ?
> 
> Thanks roy


Your ok to drive the MH and a trailer with max plated weight of 750kg but not with a trailer plated any higher than that no matter what its actual weight is.

James


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

takeaflight said:


> So just to be clear, I have grandfather rights, but to drive a mh with a gross weight of 6000kg and towing weight of 3500 kg I would need to take the test ?
> Thanks roy


If you don't need the 3500kg trailer weight capacity of the M/H then a standard C1 licence will do the job. You can add a trailer up to 750kg max with the C1+E restricted weight entitlement.

The motorhome weight cannot exceed 7500kg by itself.

Peter


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## kezbea (Jan 5, 2008)

Yes you can pay £100 and more for the license medical, but if you shop around its a lot cheaper, my last one cost £30. and before that £15. and thats for a full HGV/ PSV.
And you don't have to use your own doctor.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

teemyob said:


> If you passed your test prior to some date in 1997.
> 
> You can drive the Motorhome, no problem.
> 
> ...


TM:

Your figures are wrong, by virtue of the detail in the legislation.

The vehicle weight is limited to 7500kg, the trailer weight is limited to 750kg, regardless of the weight of the towing vehicle.

That is for a C1+E licence with Grandfather Rights.

If you take the test, then the combination you suggest would be legal, as would 7500kg towing vehicle and 4500kg trailer.

Peter


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Going back about 8 years, I could drive a 7.5t + 2.0t four wheel braked trailer, has this changed.

Pre 97 licence.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

If you passed your car test prior to 1997 you can drive up to 7500kg as has already been said. The confusion that is arising is over the max trailer you can pull. Under "Grandfather rights" their is no limit on the trailer weight providing you don't exceed a train weight of 8250kg.

Its the plated weight that is important, so your van plated weight, and your trailer plated weight can't exceed 8250kg in total. 

Ian


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

olley said:


> If you passed your car test prior to 1997 you can drive up to 7500kg as has already been said. The confusion that is arising is over the max trailer you can pull. Under "Grandfather rights" their is no limit on the trailer weight providing you don't exceed a train weight of 8250kg.
> 
> Its the plated weight that is important, so your van plated weight, and your trailer plated weight can't exceed 8250kg in total.
> 
> Ian


Ian:

That is wrong.

There is an absolute limit of 750kgs on the trailer gross weight, see my reply to TM above Kev's post.

Also my references to the Govt website and the licence group details.

Peter


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Going back about 8 years, I could drive a 7.5t + 2.0t four wheel braked trailer, has this changed.
> 
> Pre 97 licence.


Yes, Kev, if you haven't taken a test for C1+E then 7500kg vehicle with 750kg trailer is the limit, the trailer weight is fixed.

We are looking at an Iveco Daily 35C15 crew cab, with a flat load platform on the back.

That will give us 3500kg vehicle gross AND it will tow 3500kg as well with that engine, and the 140hp does it as well. We need a tonne payload at least.

Mainly as we need two vehicles and trailer to move the two engines to shows, whereas this combination would allow both engines and the big trailer in one trip, plus all our stuff. Makes a big difference in fuel and ferry costs.,

Peter


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Peter, I think Ian/Olley has it right. Plated weight of vehicle plus plated weight of trailer not to exceed 8250kgs, Alan.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

listerdiesel said:


> olley said:
> 
> 
> > If you passed your car test prior to 1997 you can drive up to 7500kg as has already been said. The confusion that is arising is over the max trailer you can pull. Under "Grandfather rights" their is no limit on the trailer weight providing you don't exceed a train weight of 8250kg.
> ...


Peter look on your licence, if you have "grandfather rights" you wil have C1-E this would normally entitle you to have a max train weight 12000kg but look further along the column and you will see code 107 this restricts you to a max train weight of 8250kg but does not restrict the weight of the trailer as long as the max train weight is not exceeded.

As I posted before:
Grandfather rights C1-E = 7500kg vehicle with any weight of trailer, providing the combined weight does not exceed 8250kg.

Ian


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

olley said:


> Peter look on your licence, if you have "grandfather rights" you wil have C1-E this would normally entitle you to have a max train weight 12000kg but look further along the column and you will see code 107 this restricts you to a max train weight of 8250kg but does not restrict the weight of the trailer as long as the max train weight is not exceeded.
> Ian


Not so:

I called DVLA yesterday and confirmed the details.

The 750kg trailer weight is an absolute, you cannot exceed it on a Grandfather Rights licence with code 107, which is what I have.

I was unsure and so were others, which is why I called them in the end and had it confirmed.

It is a very confusing situation as the Govt website does not give any insight into this at all.

Peter


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Then you have been told wrong Peter.

Ian


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

olley said:


> Then you have been told wrong Peter.
> 
> Ian


Well, call them yourself and see what answer you get?

A C1+E licence group with 107 code is limited to towing a 750kg trailer.

You can tow bigger trailers on other groups, which is what makes a nonsense out of it, but on that group you are definitely limited to 750kg.

Logic says that a 6 tonner and a 2.25 tonne trailer would be within the rules, but it is not. You cannot mix and match in that group.

An Iveco 35C15 chassis will give me 7 tonnes gross train weight, but that is another group, not C1+E.

Peter


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Peter a C1+E entitles you to drive a vehicle of 7500kg with a trailer giving a combined weight of 12000kg, the trailer can be any weight providing you don't exceed a combined weight of 12000kg.

If as you say we were restricted to a trailer of only 750kg then we would have a "C" licence, their would be no point in giving us a C1+E simply to take it away with a code. 
The code 107 restricts you to a max train weight of 8250kg, it does not restrict the trailer weight.

Ian


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Peter, read the code 107 explanation here: http://towingtraining.wordpress.com/category/c1-e-licence/

It has it right, 8250 max in any combination so long as it fulfils the other requirements. 750kgs is not an absolute max. for the trailer, Alan.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Ian:

Take the trouble to contact DVLA yourself and see what you are told.

If it is different to what I was told, then let's hear it from you.

Do not be guided by the Govt website as it does not detail the retrictions with code 107.

Peter


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

erneboy said:


> Peter, read the code 107 explanation here: http://towingtraining.wordpress.com/category/c1-e-licence/
> 
> It has it right, 8250 max in any combination so long as it fulfils the other requirements. 750kgs is not an absolute max. for the trailer, Alan.


I can see the logic behind the argument (that site doesn't work for me at present BTW) but I was told, in answer to my question, that C1+E with 107 code equates to a maximum 7500kgs towing vehicle, but the trailer could not exceed 750kgs.

If I was told wrong, I can live with that, but at present it makes more sense to me than others on here obviously.

Peter


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Peter, we all know that speaking to the DVLA is just as likely to get a wrong answer as a correct one. The link I provided has it right, in addition there are many truck driving sites where this is discussed which will bear out Ian's understanding of it.

I have much experience of this particular law having operated a fleet of 7.5 ton trucks, Alan.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

OK, I'll assume that you and Ian are correct.

I will in the meantime ask DVLA for written confirmation of the situation and advise when I get something firm from them.

Peter


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Here is a good example of a Government web site getting it wrong. It explains code 107 as meaning you can drive a vehicle of up to 8250kgs, which is utter nonsense: https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-codes

They don't even understand the legislation they administer, Alan.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Question sent to DVLA with a request for confirmation of what I can and cannot do.

Will drop the reply back here as soon as I get it, and I'd be more than happy to admit I was wrong if that is the case.

Peter


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

No answer from the DVLA will carry legal authority Peter. The matter has been tested in the courts as James demonstrated yesterday.

You may be lucky enough to get an answer from someone who knows, just a likely not though.

I would have thought that VOSA might understand the legislation, or your local Traffic Branch, Alan.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Here's a typical statement from a training company:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C1+E (7½ Tonner and Trailer)

A vehicle up to 7,500kg MAM towing a trailer over 750kg MAM (Maximum train weight is 12,000kg MAM)
Minimum age 18. 
You must have your C1 drivers licence with C1+E provisional entitlement on it. (This is added automatically when you pass your C1 driving test). 
No theory required if you did one for your C1.

Note: If you have passed your car driving test before 1997, you will have received C1 Grandfather Rights automatically. You will also have C1+E with code 107 against it, which means you can tow a trailer upto 750kg MAM. You will need to do your theory test before taking your C1+E driving test.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.benshawtraining.co.uk/80509/info.php?p=8

Peter


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

response from DVLA promises a reply within 3 business days, unless it is more complex, then they will contact me to let me know how long.

Peter

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"This is a system generated acknowledgement - Do not reply to this email.

Dear Mr Forbes

Thank you for your enquiry.

DVLA will send a reply to you within 3 working days.

If this takes longer because your query may need investigating, we will let you know."


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

listerdiesel said:


> Kev_n_Liz said:
> 
> 
> > Going back about 8 years, I could drive a 7.5t + 2.0t four wheel braked trailer, has this changed.
> ...


Just shows you dunt it, O licence CPC passed and that is what I was told by the transport manager of a haulage firm as I was considering doing the CPC myself and going for my own operating licence, but decided against it as at that time Palletline etc were doing a Pallet next day anywhere on the mainland for £55, I just couldn't compete, so I just stuck a 2t trailer on the back of my curtain sider, which gave me 5.5t gross, and I could carry 3t ish, which meant I could compete with most 7.5t box vans on price, but not bulk.

The haulage industry is constantly changing, ans as a one man band it was easy to get wrong footed with the wrong vehicle combination, I eventually gave up, as there was no longer any money in it unless you had a small fleet, and well written contracts.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I suggest using this search term in Google: DVLA inf 30

It will turn up a pdf of a leaflet which gives the correct answer, Alan.

Edit: Having looked again at that leaflet it seems to give the answer I believe is correct and would appear to go on the contradict it. What a shambles.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

erneboy said:


> I suggest using this search term in Google: DVLA inf 30
> 
> It will turn up a pdf of a leaflet which gives the correct answer, Alan.
> 
> Edit: Having looked again at that leaflet it seems to give the answer I believe is correct and would appear to go on the contradict it. What a shambles.


Yep, I looked at that and printed out before I phoned the DVLA.

Peter


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

listerdiesel said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> > I suggest using this search term in Google: DVLA inf 30
> ...


You phoned the DVLA, did you speak to anyone who actually knew anything about anything then, amazing, all I ever get is press this to do that, and I get bored and hang up.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

erneboy said:


> Peter, I think Ian/Olley has it right. Plated weight of vehicle plus plated weight of trailer not to exceed 8250kgs, Alan.


I think he is too. I have just checked my licence. I am over 70 but hold among other categories, a C1E category (truck/motorhome towing a trailer) and it clearly shows in the code column =<8250Kgms i.e.equal to or less than 8250Kgms.

peedee


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

If the vehicle is pre-1960, it can be any weight and tow any trailer, as long as neither is carrying a load (other than fixed engineering equipment) and can be driven on a car licence.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/[email protected]/documents/digitalasset/dg_10013774.pdf

They do not need an MOT either.

How daft is that?

Peter


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

listerdiesel said:


> If the vehicle is pre-1960, it can be any weight and tow any trailer, as long as neither is carrying a load (other than fixed engineering equipment) and can be driven on a car licence.
> 
> http://www.direct.gov.uk/[email protected]/documents/digitalasset/dg_10013774.pdf
> 
> ...


Just a tad, this lot will be queuing up for them now


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Response from DVLA just in:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Dear Mr Forbes

Thank you for your email received on 28/9/13. Your email reference number is 1546121.

We cannot comment on your individual driving licence via email. We can however provide detailed information on driving licence categories that may be found on your licence and what these categories may allow you to drive.

If you would like information on other driving licence categories, please visit www.gov.uk/browse/driving alternatively, if you want to discuss what vehicles your licence allows you to drive you can call our Customer Enquiries Section on 0300 790 6801, Monday to Friday 8.00am to 7.00pm and Saturday 8.00am to 2.00pm.

*Category C1E (with 107 restriction) - Vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailer over 750kg (combined weight not more than 8250kg), and designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver.*

Please note, the total weight of the vehicle and trailer can't weigh more than 8250kg. The weight of the trailer, when fully loaded, can't weigh more than the unladen weight of the vehicle.

Do not reply to this email. If you wish to contact us again about this response then please use our Reply Form or copy and paste the following URL in to your browser:

https://emaildvla.direct.gov.uk/emaildvla/cegemail/dvla/en/reply_form_drivers.html

When filling in the form the email reference number 1546121 will be required.

Regards

R Lloyd
Customer Enquiries Group
DVLA

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That confirms that you CAN drive with a 4.6tonnes vehicle with a trailer more than 750kg (as an example) so well done DVLA and my apologies to all for my misinterpretation of their website.

Peter


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## p-c (Oct 27, 2007)

Hi Peter
Thanks for posting that and for clarifying what was confusing many on here. Will it now make your trailer life easier?
It is a minefield but this was the answer I expected and very relieved it is what you got. As someone with grandfather rights towing on an A frame with a motorhome over 3.5 I would have been a bit stuck otherwise.
Regards
p-c


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

It was nice to get it sorted out, but it doesn't actually improve on our present position to any degree.

Using my ordinary car licence group, I can tow with a vehicle up to 3500kg, a trailer up to 3500kgs. My Discovery is 2.2tonnes unladen but it can legally tow up to 3500kgs, how safe is that?

I can also get an Iveco Daily crew-cab 35C15 with a GTW of 7000kgs, vehicle at 3500kg and trailer at 3500kg, but I'd rather go for the heavier 45C15. 

I am prevented from doing so by the trailer weight compared to the towing vehicle unladen weight being 3500/2600, so no joy. I'd have thought that the larger vehicle was safer at those weights, and we would be running with a 1 tonne load, but on paper it's a no-go as we are then above the car licence 3500kg top limit.

Peter


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## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

Well we went to look at a Carthago and was about to put in offer, on an Iveco with a gross weight of 6500kg and towing limit of 3000kg, unless i wont to take the C1 E test i cant use it to tow a trailer above 750kg.

I wonder how many people are driving around totally illegally, its not the weight you are carrying, its the weight you could carry that decides it.

Thanks to all for stopping me make a very expensive mistake.

Roy


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Roy:

Check the details, particularly the weight of the trailer against the unladen weight of the towing vehicle.

In the case of a motorhome, the unladen weight is considerably higher than a basic commercial, but the big snag is that the gross combination weight will exceed 8250kgs if you use the full ratings.

You should be able to tow something like a 1.5 tonne trailer?

Peter


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

takeaflight said:


> Well we went to look at a Carthago and was about to put in offer, on an Iveco with a gross weight of 6500kg and towing limit of 3000kg, unless i wont to take the C1 E test i cant use it to tow a trailer above 750kg.
> 
> I wonder how many people are driving around totally illegally, its not the weight you are carrying, its the weight you could carry that decides it.
> 
> ...


You can replate a trailer downwards. What you need is a combined plated weight of 8250 or less. Car and trailer not more than 1750kgs is achievable, Alan.


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## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

erneboy said:


> takeaflight said:
> 
> 
> > Well we went to look at a Carthago and was about to put in offer, on an Iveco with a gross weight of 6500kg and towing limit of 3000kg, unless i wont to take the C1 E test i cant use it to tow a trailer above 750kg.
> ...


I don't think that will work, it's not what you are towing, my understanding is, it's what you could tow.
You could have a truck with a capacity of say 18 ton, carrying a matchbox, but you would still need an applicable licence.

However if you could, it would help, but I won't to tow a trailer with a gross weight of 2600kg.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

You could, if you wanted to, replate a trailer to it's actual weight plus 1kg. It wouldn't be very useful then but if all you wanted to carry was half a bag of sugar it would be perfectly legal, till it accumulated enough dirt to take the weight over the plated weight. But for instance, if a trailer weighing 1 ton to was plated at 3 tons there is no reason at all not to plate it downwards to say 2.5 or 2 tons to allow it to be towed within the restrictions of your licence.

Plating up is a technical issue because it needs to be demonstrated that the trailer/vehicle is capable of carrying the additional weight. Downward is simple because it is self evident that the vehicle/trailer is capable of carrying less, Alan.


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## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

Sorry guys, just went through the entire thread, and followed the links.

So I can tow any size trailer as long as the combination does not exceed 8250kgs.

To down plate a trailer, is it just the case of replating the existing pate with a gross weight not to exceed 8250kgs in combination with the MHF?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes, subject to satisfying the requirements for the relative weights of the tow vehicle and the trailer, Alan.


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## kabundi (Feb 14, 2011)

I took my test around 1965 so have "grand father rights"

My current licence issued in 2006 states that it have category C1E valid from Jan 1985 in column10 and -79(<8250kg) in column 11. Is this different from code 107 discussed above?

Colin


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Code 107 is max 8250kg Train weight.

https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-codes


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## kabundi (Feb 14, 2011)

My licence is code 79 (<8250kg). Does this mean that I can tow a trailer of any plated weight provided it is less than the plated weight of the motorhome and also provided that the total train plated weight is under 8250kg. 

In other words is code 107 and code79 (<8250kg) identical?

Colin


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

kabundi said:


> My licence is code 79 (<8250kg). Does this mean that I can tow a trailer of any plated weight provided it is less than the plated weight of the motorhome and also provided that the total train plated weight is under 8250kg.
> 
> In other words is code 107 and code79 (<8250kg) identical?
> 
> Colin


"Code 79 - restricted to vehicles in conformity with the specifications stated in brackets on your licence".

https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-codes

Looks like it is the same as Code 107, but different circumstances as to how you got there?

Peter


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