# Heating, Truma, Webasto, Eberspacher



## 89043 (May 12, 2005)

Progressing on the Transporter project - next decision to make
Heating with intended all seasons use
First question LPG or Diesel: Truma or Webasto-Eberspacher

What about the noise of the dieselfired heaters?

What about the mean time between failure of either one of the three?
Thxs
Archimedes


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Archimedes,

The diesel fired heaters can be noisy, though noise is a very subjective subject. Personally, I think I would be conscious of it and a bit guilty if I were to use it late at night or early in the morning when parked next to a tent. If I needed it THROUGH the night, then those tenters would be such a hardy bunch in such low temperatures a little bit of noise shouldn't bother them  However, when parked up at a compact or busy aire, say, right next to other motorhomes, I wouldn't think twice about the noise. 

Don't know about the MTBF of Eberspacher, but the warranty is good and it needs no scheduled servicing/maintenance for 3 years. When they do go wrong, however, I recall stories of how expensive they can be to fix.

If you NEED heating, don't run your diesel tank too low. Not that it gulps the fuel, just that it consciously does not operate with less that ~1/5th tank left. 

It is the integration, flexibility and convenience of the Eberspacher that I like. Instant hot water and space heating on the move from the engine. Selectable engine pre-heating & separately selectable windscreen demisting before you even twist the ignition key. Full use of dash vents and blower by the system. Timers, thermostat, selectable fan speed and automatic 5 level heat output. Mains water heater when on hookup. With my home bathroom etc being done over at the moment, for the last couple of mornings I've woken up in my normal bed, leaned over and pressed a keyfob remote, and 20 mins later padded outside in my dressing gown into a cosy motorhome for a piping hot shower! Luxury 

Dave


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Hi Archimedes,

I dont know about the other heaters but I do know somthing of the Eberspacher having lived with one for the last 4 years.

Yes they can be noisy, mainly when they first fire up as they go on to maximum heat at first, but when the cabin reaches the set temp they slow down and from then on they are ok.

When I say noisy, they are not that noisy that they would bother you watching TV but might disturb you when sleeping.

The biggest problem for me was that when they started up the draw 18 amps for the heater plug and if your batteries are not fully charged the supply voltage would dip under 12 volt and then the heater would shut down, to get around this it is sometimes necessary to run the engine to get it going.

If I was making the choice again I would not have a Eberspacher.

Doug...


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## 89043 (May 12, 2005)

*Thanks Dave, Thanks Doug*

I appreciate the advantages Dave is enumerating, the hot shower might be a bit elusive in our project as the farthest that we will go is for an outside shower ( we work on a kind of "safari room" under the extended rear hatch of the van for "upright" activity, but for the rest the transporter will be very much a combination of a sitting room-kitchen-dining upfront and a bed on wheels in the back, the latter even sliding over the dining table at night... don't, panic we foresee some luxuries as a campi-potti and a coolbox hidden in the intermediate area)
Yet I am interested in the possibility of using a heat exchanger in the cooling circuit for hot water... do not see that on the Eberspacher web,
so any info on that would also be welcome.

My big concern is the noise, linked to our camping (and travel) style, what we love is to "wander" through the country, with surely a number interest points in head and so one or two "must see" spots on the navigation table when we set off, yet leaving all very much to the hazard of the "good winds". Means that we often stopover at a nice or interesting spot over the day, "wander" a bit further stop maybe again and realise that again the day is over to soon at sunset... , The habit remains from a former life where we camped with small canadian tents, just big enough to sleep- since we turned to MH this means that for overnight camping the two most ready issues that work in our hands are - look for a some secluded space in the middle of nowhere, keep a low profile have a good sleep an wake up in the morning nose to nose with the game (happened once to us in the Morvan having a small herd of (raised) bisons around the MH,

and the other approach is to drive to the middle of the village, under the church tower, have a glass of wine, or beer in the local pub, get often a decent meal at a reasonable price, end with " does it matter", we would just stopover for the night .... mostly "yes no problem" were even once or twice greeted in the morning with coffee and "croissants".

In neither case I would like much roar to mark our presence... the transporter concept was born because what is available for rent in the MH market is too obtrusive for our mode of life.

So can I resume that overnight heating with the Eberspacher is "tangent" under the circumstances... would it be possible to mute it by working on the muffler or is the unit itself noisy... I am a bit wary because I tried two outfitters, to hear with own ears, but none had a unit that could be demonstrated... in both cases none of the fitted ones where on a unit that had power on. My experience with rented MH is with Truma gas heating that is of course silent, but lacks the ease of integration.

Back to MTBF, I also heard about high repair costs. One record is that a common cause for failure is low batteries, leading to carbonization around the glow plug. Also heard from the maritime side that webasto if even more demanding on power at startup.

18-20 A at startup would mean that the 10 A of the datasheet is as always a bit optimistic. Would that be the same for the "running" power consumption? I calculated from the data sheet that 10 hours would need some 25 Ah from the house batteries stock, what is to the limit we can spare for the heater.... but as the eberspacher use the normal ducting...most probably the ventilation of the van will have to be on power also, what means more power so I might get short on that side also

thanks already for your info and any further you can spare
Marcel.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Marcel,

Regarding heat exchanger, see:
http://www.eberspacher.com/auto_motorhome.php?section=automotive

Regarding noise, as I say it is so subjective that you really ought to hear one (a recent one - silencing is better than older models) and imagine that in your most demanding environment from a noise point of view. I may be wrong but I thought many Sprinter CDI vans had separate diesel heaters as standard.

Typical use for me on a cold morning would be to fire it up on full fan speed in the rear servicing 2 outlets in the lounge/kitchen and 1 in the washroom, with dash hot air coming through the face-level vents on fan speed 2. This will raise the temperature pretty quickly, so after around 15 mins I'll shut off the cab heating (unless I want further to demist the screen or preheat the engine for an early getaway) and turn the rear fan to low. Then I'll be back to 4 amps steady state, but after a while for the van to "soak" at that demanded internal temperature I'll turn it off unless I'm sitting in a heat-robbing gale or constantly in-and-out. It pays not to have a high heat output and middling demanded temperature, as this will cycle the heater on/off more than is necessary and it is at start-up that it hits the batteries, as Doug says.

The last 3 mornings I have showered in a currently hook-up-free motorhome that was at 20deg C internal temperature. The first morning the outside temperature was surprisingly smack on freezing, yet I noted that evening that the batteries had been fully topped up by just the solar panel.

I would be the first to stress that you need to be comfortable with your 12V side energy budget before deciding on a diesel heater. That, of course, can be a PhD thesis in itself, but one point I will make is that I am a believer in a battery capacity meter rather than a simple voltmeter. Having one of these:
http://www.victronenergy.com/product.php?productid=155
http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-UK-BMV501BattMonitor.pdf (1 Meg download)
allows me to treat 12V electricity just the same as diesel, fresh water, waste water or true gas level (NOT Gaslow) gauges allow you to know exactly "how much you have left in the tank". This takes out all the uncertainty and makes its management a sub-conscious activity.

Dave


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## 93606 (May 1, 2005)

Archimedes,
We replaced our truma heater with an eberspacher unit, with a 40 litre hot water tank with heat exchanger. The unit is a little bit noisy but we have parked on aires within 5 feet of other vans without any problems disturbing other people. It is slightly noisy in the van when sleeping if left on - ie when the tempperature gets very low. We leave it on so that the 2 year old doesnt get too cold, the heater turns on and off with the thermostat so you get some noise as it starts up, but not enough to disturb your sleep - especially after a couple of beers ! The hot water is excellent also - far better than the gas system. We have been on aires for several days without hook up and had no problems with low battery charge - we have 2 85 amp batterys. If you are anywhere near west yorkshire you are more than welcome to visit us and have a listen to the system working if that helps ?


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## 89043 (May 12, 2005)

*To launaeloise and Dave*

Thanks for the offering launaeloise, but as for near to west yorkshire, will have to wait until the van is outfitted, my homestead is in the countryside southeast of Brussels... 
Thanks also for the info both of you... If the 25 Ah / day I computed for the Hydronic form data are confirmed the unit fits in my DC bilan. That one is bit charged on travel days because we intend to depend on electricity (over an inverter) for cooking ( basically reheating canned food and roasting meat) inside the van , with a backup for some more elaborate cooking on either a campinggas or colemanstove on a slideout panel in the rear under the hatch when we stay long enough somewhere to be tempted to that. That makes that with a provision of 2x 100 Ah the bilan fits without less lay-way. Two lines of thought we follow now,

In a stopover "en route" we can just keep the engine running while the microwave or the inductionplate are in use, so lower the burden on the batteries. Your line about the battery meter is fully justified Dave, and that is one of the item to decide on... one step at a time.. but I note the item that gave you satisfaction.

The other line of thougt is that actually we can either dispense unless in extreme circumstances with heating overnight or just keep the unit running continuously at its lowest stand to keep the beer bottles from bursting... might solve the other problem: condensation on outfitter pointed us to while wanting to convince us that after all our van needed a full interior thermal insulation a change of windows and a ventilation hatch in the roof... we intend anyhow to keep to our US army mountaineers down filled sleeping bags for sleeping.. so starting the heater only in the morning might fit the picture.

To come back to hot water, what we look for the moment is some kind of flow-through system. Water reserves will be on the low end from a modal MH user point of view, two 25 l jerrycans, one in use one spare.

Classical electrical flow-throughs are out for burden on the supply as well for capacity and pressure of the water flow, a heat water tank does not fit in the design, what I am looking for is an heat - exchanger to it in the cooling circuit one end and in a water line the other side. The whole small enough to fit in a one or two liter minute hot water supply that matches with availlable water reserves and intended use.

If we went to gas heating a flow through standard gas unit could fit in a "rearhatch - open shower - mild season only concept", with petrol heating and for the less mild season we will have to content with the facilities available either at campsites or roadside for more comfortable I fear.

Well I have been promised to see (hear) a recent Eberspacher hydronic next week.
Kind regards
Marcel


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## pomme1 (May 19, 2005)

Marcel,

Over the Easter holiday we were pitched next to a new Autosleeper Trooper/Trident (don't know which!). It had a diesel powered heater which was sufficiently noisy to prevent us from sitting in our awning and could be heard several pitches away. I don't know whether A/S use Eberspacher or Webasto, but this one was certainly unacceptable. I can only imagine what it was like inside the van.

Pomme


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## 89043 (May 12, 2005)

*to Pomme*

Thanks Pomme,
One of the problems is if you order "standard from manufacturer" and that counts I know if it is from car base manufactures but likewise for MH outfitters I presume they are all but explicit about what they fit... as far "as something as Webasto or Ebenspacher" is the most explicit our car dealer wants to go (an I know he honestly does not know better until after he sees the car coming in (same goes of course for such "fringes" as alternators... manufactures just play the market and go for what fits their specs and prices... As for the heater i have the alternative to get it retrofitted, and bargaining coming to even a slightly better price than VW charges after discount... less convenient however. What I learned sofar is that the muffler on the exhaust and maybe even the innards of the muffler are "options" anyhow at the level manufactures buy... that might explain why some of the fitted units are noisier than others.

Just adding pro and cons of both systems for the moment. One thing for sure: whatever I buy and where, I want to be fixed about make and brand before I sign and will have to see (and hear a working unit before I go as far as that..

THanks again for the info, and hopefully your next weekend you get more thoughtful neighbors

Marcel


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