# Battery Charging by Solar/Efoy?



## alshymer (Nov 4, 2007)

Hi again
Wife of Alshymer here again!!!
Thank you all for your replies to my Volts/Amps topic.
I think that I can understand it more now. I was mostly confused due to a faulty battery, which has now been changed.
One further point that I would appreciate clarification on is-
With having a 120w solar solar panel and the 1200w Efoy, will these charge the battery simultaneously or will the solar take priority?
Happy Christmas to you all.


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## premiermotorhomes (Feb 13, 2008)

Good morning Alshymer and Happy Christmas, 

The Efoy monitors the battery state and will only turn on when the terminal voltage hits 12.3V, the solar panel will permanently be charging.

Working on this basis, then the Efoy will only kick in when the load on the batteries is greater than the solar panels can compensate for, which in turn will be more likely to happen in the winter months with the sun lower, and in colder conditions.

If i'm wrong, or anyone can add more please do.

Regards, 
Chris


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Basically as Chris says, the Efoy and the solar controller both have set points that determine when charging stops and starts.

The controller we have on the trailer has four settings for different battery types, but it is at 13.60V at present, and will charge the battery to hold that voltage.

Thus if the Efoy has a lower starting point, the solar panel is always going to be doing the background charge.

Peter


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I would recommend not using the Efoy unless it's really needed. It sounds as though you are leaving it on automatic which I consider rather wasteful.

This http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-134337-.html may help explain why.

Regards, Alan.


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## alshymer (Nov 4, 2007)

*Battery Charging Solar/Efoy*

Hi All 
Thanks for those.
Alan, this is the reason I asked the question. Whether or not I could maybe just use the Efoy when really necessary.
Does it use fuel when in Standby mode?
Best wishes
Alshymer


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

No it won't use fuel in standby. I assume you mean standby on automatic?

Did you read my post on the other thread, keeping it on automatic will use it's rather limited life span much more quickly than necessary. That will end up being costly in the long run. It is best to turn it on manually when it's really needed and off again when it's replaced sufficient charge, Alan.


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## premiermotorhomes (Feb 13, 2008)

As I understand it, Automatic mode will only use fuel when the voltage drops below 12.3V, over this voltage is purely a monitoring process where no fuel will be used.

I would personally leave it operating in Automatic mode because you have the solar panel which will keep Efoy use to a minimum as it should only come on after heavy use, though I understand the points made about manual operation as this provides more control on operation whilst minimising fuel consumption.

Perhaps it would be best to try it in Automatic mode and see how you go, and if its coming on too frequently or if you know you will be driving or have EHU soon then you could just use manual at your discretion.

Regards,
Chris


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Efoy and solar panel will almost certainly operate together, which will mean at times that the Efoy is being used to do work that the solar panel would have done given time. Solar energy is free-ish, power form your Efoy is very far from free. Why leave it on auto if you don't need to replace the charge right at that time. Let's say it is evening but the sun will come up in the morning, or it's evening but you will be driving the next day?

In my view the automatic setting is there mainly for use when charging unmanned applications or vacant vans, but of course Efoy won't mind if you leave it on auto, all the more dosh for them when the unit needs a premature refurb.

Remember that your Efoy is only expected to give around 3000 hours use, that's 125 days. You could, using it carelessly, use that in one year.

Your decision , Alan.


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## alshymer (Nov 4, 2007)

*Battery charging*

Hi 
Thanks again all.
Alan you surprise me when you say that the Efoy's expected life is only 3000hrs and as you say, this time could be used quite quickly.
I know that you have had yours refurbished but I cannot quite make my mind up as to whether you really like it or not!!
What made you think that it needed refurbishment?
It is as you say an expensive piece of kit, which only generates some 3.9AH (1200w)
Thank you for your comments and have a great day.
Regards


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: Battery charging*



alshymer said:


> Hi
> Thanks again all.
> Alan you surprise me when you say that the Efoy's expected life is only 3000hrs and as you say, this time could be used quite quickly.
> I know that you have had yours refurbished but I cannot quite make my mind up as to whether you really like it or not!!
> ...


At just over 3,000 hours and around five years old the performance of mine began dropping off quite a bit. Around 2 amps max. even on a fairly discharged battery. I guessed the stack might be coming to the end of it's life so contacted SFC, the manufacturer. They said send it along and we will test it.

They confirmed that the stack needed replacing and so that's being done now.

Yes, I like it a lot. It gives sufficient power for our needs without hook up and without needing to run the engine. I don't like the noise of generators or of the Gasperini.

I use it very carefully and only when I feel I absolutely need to.

If my quick mental calculation is correct power produced this way costs well over £20 per kilowatt. It's not to be used frivolously I think.

Regards, Alan.


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## alshymer (Nov 4, 2007)

*Battery etc*

Hi Alan
Thanks again.
Was it not possible to exchange for the newer model?
Regards


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Mine came with a warranty which said 3,000 hours or two years. Here is the registration form for the warranty: http://www.efoy.com/en/service-commercial-guarantee.html

I discussed this with them before buying the first one and they said, as you would expect, the warranty is for 3,000 hours but it could last a lot longer. Yeah, well maybe.

On the current warranty information: http://www.efoy.com/en/22.1.3.1-2-garantiebedingungen.html

I see only two years mentioned, the 3,000 hours doesn't seem to be there any more.

Not cheap and if the warranty is only two years now it doesn't have a very good guarantee either.

They do put offers on now and then where you can have a five year warranty and I am fairly sure you can but that with a new machine.

Don't be tempted to use anything other than Efoy fuel. Impure fuel will wreck the machine in short order, as I found out.

Regards, Alan.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I think you didn't read the other thread for which I posted a link.

Yes I could have bought a new one. That would have cost around twice as much and they are only very slightly more efficient, so refurb is a much, much more cost effective thing to do, Alan.


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## alshymer (Nov 4, 2007)

*Battery etc*

Hi Alan
I have read all your postings with great interest.
I realise that you could have bought a new one, but wondered whether Efoy offered you a part exchange for the new model rather than a refurbishment?
I have never seen any other manufacturers methanol, but am amazed at the fuel cartridge prices advertised on the Internet today. From £96 -£126 for a 10 litre cartridge.
Here in France, I can purchase for 60€!!
Regards


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

They did offer to sell me a new one, at full retail price. So a refurb at around half price was a much better option for me, as I guess it will be for most.

I see what you mean about the price of fuel. I bought a fair bit last time I bought. It seems to have doubled in price since then and of course due to shipping costs mail order is pretty well out.

RoadPro seem to have a half reasonable price on it: https://www.roadpro.co.uk/retail/product_list.aspx?prod=Fuel+cartridges+for+Efoy+fuel+cells

if it's possible to collect. It looks as though the cartridges come in packs of two from most suppliers.

I must do the calculation on the cost of per Kw factoring in the fuel. It must be around £30 per Kw, if I did my first calculation correctly.

I am in Spain. Will have to shop around before buying any. Thanks for the heads up on that.

Happy Christmas, Alan.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I thought I woud post the offer Efoy made me for repair/replacement.

Allowing that they charge shipping on top of these prices, I can buy them on the net at pretty much what they call their Customer Loyalty Price. For example an Efoy 80 Comfort inc. shipping for £2,364. Shipping on my refurbed unit is €80.


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

Have an Efoy on long term test. It does what it says on the tin. In winter solar charging is minimal so sustained off grid camping can be without doubt extended indefinitely with an Efoy. BUT it can be doubled by adding another leisure battery which is a much lower cost option. The first job however is to use wisely your battery energy, LED lighting etc. DO NOT use battery energy for any heating system, use gas for heating cooking and the fridge and you will last many days on one battery charge.

C.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

How many hours on your's now Clive? Alan.


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## premiermotorhomes (Feb 13, 2008)

The suggested selling prices for Efoy from the sole UK importer Grove Products are;

M5 £34.40inc VAT
M10 £51.60inc VAT

Cartridges are sold in cases of two, which is how most dealers will sell them. Prices above are per cartridge, not per case.

Comfort 80 £2499.99inc VAT
Comfort 140 £3729.99inc VAT
Comfort 210 £5259.99inc VAT

I expect the Roadpro price allows for shipping which is why it is slightly higher. There are very few companies who are permitted to handle methanol in transit, and I expect some suppliers will not advise the courier of the contents as the shipping costs would be higher.

I ordered some Methanol as part of an order from Grove and the Methanol was shipped separately via another courier.

Regards,
Chris


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

It's certainly an interesting gadget, but at the total cost of ownership including fuel, it looks to be one of those things that you'd like but never buy.

As erneboy has said, cost of power generation is pretty eye-wateringly expensive, but if there are no other options then you'd have to go that route.

Fortunately, most of us can work out other options for power, even in the winter when solar isn't at its best.

Peter


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

Very. Little hours, only used about 14 litres of Methanol total in some 4 years. But its insurance or peace of mind contripution is imence. It was the unexpected purr of the efoy that allerted me to find out why after a days driving it was running. Turned out to be a bad connection between the alternator and the starter battery.
C.


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

I will start by saying I know nothing, but I have an inquisitive mind!

If you have set up a solar panel and an Efoy ( or 2nd solar panel) then both devices are connected to the same leisure battery/batteries and the controllers, of which there is one for each device are also connected to the same battery/batteries. During a sunny day the solar will be required to put in some amps to the battery needing charge as instructed by the controller, the Efoy/2nd solar will also have the same instruction from its controller, with me so far?
Now, here's the bit where I know nothing. Which one is charging the battery? Solar 1 may be putting 13.?? Whatever volts into the battery so solar 2 or Efoy may think and be fooled by its controller the battery is fully charged, therefore does nothing. OR the other way round, solar 2 or Efoy is doing the charging and solar 1 sits in the sun taking it easy!
This assumes the start point for charging on the Efoy is same as solar panel. Can you connect 2 charging devices to one battery set up?
Who rules and WHY especially if 2 solar panels are fitted?


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## alshymer (Nov 4, 2007)

*Battery/solar panel*

Hi 
Thanks again for all your replies.
To the previous poster- I think that this has been already answered from the Efoy point of view, in that it doesn't click in until the battery reaches 12.3v, so hopefully the solar won't allow the batteries to get to this level.
Regards
Alshymer


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

The device with the highest set point will always start charging first.

Even as little as 0.1V difference will show in the way the devices take up the charge, but if a heavy load is applied to the battery and that device won't hold the voltage, then the other devices will come on stream to support the load as the battery voltage falls.

Peter


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Battery/solar panel*



alshymer said:


> Hi
> Thanks again for all your replies.
> To the previous poster- I think that this has been already answered from the Efoy point of view, in that it doesn't click in until the battery reaches 12.3v, so hopefully the solar won't allow the batteries to get to this level.
> Regards
> Alshymer


Thanks or that, the point I was trying to make and perhaps the Efoy with an adjustable "start point" was not ideal. Assume then 2 separate solar panels through 2 regulators, if panel 1 was charging it would fool panel 2 into thinking that the battery was fully charged due to the voltage at the battery? Then there would be no point in having 2 panels, or would there?
The point in question refers to an Auto Trail with a Sargent control panel EC325 which has a maximum capacity of 125 amps or there abouts'. Fitting 2 x 85 amp panels would exceed this limit therefore requiring the fitting of an additional regulator. Hence the question.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

As your solar should be your first choice power source why would you have the Efoy on if there was decent solar input.

If, in late afternoon or early evening as the sun gets low your solar hasn't been able to give enough charge and you will be using heavily the next day then turn the Efoy on over night, Alan.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

*Re: Battery/solar panel*



DJP said:


> Thanks or that, the point I was trying to make and perhaps the Efoy with an adjustable "start point" was not ideal. Assume then 2 separate solar panels through 2 regulators, if panel 1 was charging it would fool panel 2 into thinking that the battery was fully charged due to the voltage at the battery? Then there would be no point in having 2 panels, or would there?
> The point in question refers to an Auto Trail with a Sargent control panel EC325 which has a maximum capacity of 125 amps or there abouts'. Fitting 2 x 85 amp panels would exceed this limit therefore requiring the fitting of an additional regulator. Hence the question.


It isn't quite as simple as that.

Yes, there will always be a 'lead' regulator out of two units, you can rarely set them to identical voltages, so one will always come on first, but as soon as the voltage starts to fall, the other will also come on as the regulation is not as good as my switch-mode charger which holds +- 0.1V up to its full output.

Regarding your second paragraph, you seem to be getting Watts and Amps confused. 80 WATT solar panels are what are usually fitted, 80 AMP panels would be pretty fearsome beasties!

2 X 85 watt panels with a decent controller would normally do all you need in the way of load support and battery charging, it's only at night when the battery itself actually does anything.

If you're on EHU then your on-board charger will join the fun as well.

Our charger is set to 13.80V, the panels controller at 13.60V. If the charger is on, the panels contribute nothing at all. The meter display says 000 for the charge current.

Peter


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Peter, it might be worth adding that while 2 x 80w solar panels should cope in summer they will give very little in winter. 

Winter is when I find our Efoy invaluable, Alan.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

erneboy said:


> Peter, it might be worth adding that while 2 x 80w solar panels should cope in summer they will give very little in winter.
> 
> Winter is when I find our Efoy invaluable, Alan.


I think that is a given, but worth mentioning.

Ours are knocking out a bit in daytime, but because we are not using anything it is just a maintenance level of charge.

Peter


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## alshymer (Nov 4, 2007)

*Battery/solar/Efoy*

Hi again,
Ernie boy, could you tell me how you think leaving the Efoy on all the time is wasteful?
In auto standby, it isn't using any fuel or clocking up usage hours.
As I have 375AH battery bank and if the Efoy doesn't come on until 12.3v, I don't think it will come on a great deal.
I would have thought that starting up and shutting down regularly would cost more in fuel and usage hours.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Kind regards
Alshymer


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## Christine600 (Jan 20, 2011)

Alshymer I think it is wasteful to let the Efoy charge up my batteries if I know I am getting EHU or going to be driving for several hours.

The EHU or the long drive will charge my batteries anyway and cheaper.

It does not harm the Efoy nor the batteries though - only my wallet when I have to get a new fuel cartridge sooner.


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## RichardD (Sep 14, 2009)

Up until now I'd always run the Efoy on auto, but on the last trip with reasonably well charged leisure batteries I used an inverter for 10 minutes or so and the voltage drop caused the Efoy to kick in. The start up period of the Efoy is quite lengthy before it starts to develop a good charge rate and then it ran for about 2 hours before switching to standby. A complete waste of fuel especially as we were on the road the next day.

In future I will be using the manual method not least as our unit is located under the bed and on one trip it started up just as we were settling down for the night and though it is very quiet the small hum it produces was amplified up through the bed!!!

Richard


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: Battery/solar/Efoy*



alshymer said:


> Hi again,
> Ernie boy, could you tell me how you think leaving the Efoy on all the time is wasteful?
> In auto standby, it isn't using any fuel or clocking up usage hours.
> As I have 375AH battery bank and if the Efoy doesn't come on until 12.3v, I don't think it will come on a great deal.
> ...


When your batteries are down to 12.3 volts you still have 65 to 70% of your battery power, admittedly not all of that is usable. So if you will be driving any reasonable distance the next day or if you have solar that may take care of your charging needs. That's for you to decide. But it's pointless, wasteful and very expensive to use the Efoy if other power sources will become available while you still have adequate power.

It's a personal decision. I want my Efoy to last and not to unnecessarily use fuel.

I agree with Christine and Richard, Alan.


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## eddievanbitz (May 1, 2005)

premiermotorhomes said:


> Good morning Alshymer and Happy Christmas,
> 
> The Efoy monitors the battery state and will only turn on when the terminal voltage hits 12.3V, the solar panel will permanently be charging.
> 
> ...


neither are as good as a genny or arriving with sufficient power to last the duration of your stay!

if money is not the prime decider have an efoy!

Lets not assume that everyone is on a budget!

Eddie


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## safariboy (May 1, 2005)

alshymer said:


> Hi again
> Wife of Alshymer here again!!!
> Thank you all for your replies to my Volts/Amps topic.
> I think that I can understand it more now. I was mostly confused due to a faulty battery, which has now been changed.
> ...


Something wrong here. The biggest Efoy (at over £5000.00!) is a 105W model. Anyway a 1200W charger would be almost 100A.
Happy camping for 2013.


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## Cherekee (May 1, 2005)

I know old post but was talking to a friend who is getting a new Pilot and we were discussing battery charging and I said "have you thought about an Efoy". Have been doing some research today and it seems that the LPG Efoy does not exist any more (well Google has never heard about it) and only a model that uses a Methanol/Water mix.

Anybody know or can point me in the right direction.

Cheers

Alan


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Never heard of an LPG one.

I think I'd go so far as to say there never was one. I have had an Efoy for years and think I know a little about the company and it's products. I may be wrong though.


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## Cherekee (May 1, 2005)

Thanks Erneboy,

I think you are correct and me the wally. Some one else locally has/had one and thinking about it it was more than likely diesel powered and not LPG. No wonder nothing found.

Anyway are they still making the diesel one and if so can you point me in the right direction. Are you still happy with yours. I use the van in the alps etc in the winter and have thought about getting one for years. If I do eventually change the Rapido is it a worthwhile expense?

Cheers

Alan


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

To the best of my knowledge they only ever made a methanol fuel cell. Surely anything petrol, diesel or lpg powered would be a generator?

I stand to be corrected on that though.


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