# Stopovers _ asprn please see



## Lonewolf

Firstly I much apologise if this topic has been aired before.
I haven't been able to find it anywhere though.

When I read about motorhomers having a meal and a couple of drinks,then with the landlords permission,staying overnight in the pub's car park.

How does the law view this.Are you then not in charge of a vehicle whilst over the legal alcohol limit?

Lonewolf.


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## chrisndeb

Hi I have read about this on here before somewhere. I say if your on private land ie a pub car park with permission of the owner providing your not in the drivers seat with keys in hand or engine running what is the difference of being on a site, Im sure no police officer would be too bothered? however if your wild camping you should always remember you may be asked to move at anytime. As I say these are only my thoughts on this. Hope it helps a bit Chris


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## drcotts

*Re: Stopovers*



Lonewolf said:


> Firstly I much apologise if this topic has been aired before.
> I haven't been able to find it anywhere though.
> 
> When I read about motorhomers having a meal and a couple of drinks,then with the landlords permission,staying overnight in the pub's car park.
> 
> How does the law view this.Are you then not in charge of a vehicle whilst over the legal alcohol limit?
> 
> Lonewolf.


DOUGIE.............


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## Rapide561

*Parking*

Hi

My understanding is "the intention to drive". I interpret this, as follows.

If I am in the motorhome, drunk as a skunk, tucked up in bed, wearing my jimjams, there is no intention to drive.

If the above was taking place in a private car park, all well and good.

If I was parked on Dover seafront, then I would not have a drink at all in case I "was asked to move along" etc

Russell


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## CurlyBoy

Hi,not a legal expert BUT,if the public has access then the law applies,as per motoring offenses in supermarket car parks etc,BE SAFE STAY WITHIN THE LIMIT,sorry to be a killjoy,but all the best anyway1


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## drcotts

*Re: Parking*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> My understanding is "the intention to drive". I interpret this, as follows.


Hi 
I think you will find its more a case of was likey to or could have driven. Anyone who falls out the pub could use that excuse and say they were stopping in the car to sleep it off. The best defense is to not have the keys with you. leave them behind the bar. Then there is no possibility of you driving.

Its open to interpretation by the courts to a large degree.


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## johnandcharlie

What about a CL at a pub? I've stayed at several where the site was a field next to the pub and was certainly OK, but I was at one a couple of weeks ago where the camp site was a strip of grass along the back of the car park. As it was so wet I parked on the car park. The only obvious difference was that I was on a hookup, although the entrance gates were shut overnight. If I had been drunk and gone to bed before closing time surely that would have been risky too. Whether it's an official site or not, you are staying there with the advance agreement with the landlord. And it's not very practical to leave your ignition key behind the bar when you need it to open the van door.


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## dbh1961

*Re: Parking*



Rapide561 said:


> Hi
> 
> My understanding is "the intention to drive". I interpret this, as follows.
> 
> If I am in the motorhome, drunk as a skunk, tucked up in bed, wearing my jimjams, there is no intention to drive.
> 
> If the above was taking place in a private car park, all well and good.
> 
> If I was parked on Dover seafront, then I would not have a drink at all in case I "was asked to move along" etc
> 
> Russell


I'll remember that tonight - when I WILL be on Dover seafront (booze cruise to France 4:30 AM Fri boat). MH garage emptied last night, all ready to go. Cr*p exchange rate though.


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## artona

Hi

_Hi,not a legal expert BUT,if the public has access then the law applies,as per motoring offenses in supermarket car parks etc,BE SAFE STAY WITHIN THE LIMIT,sorry to be a killjoy,but all the best anyway1_

If this were the case then

1) Fulltimers could never drink
2) All campsites would be no drinks
3) Land lords who keep their own car on the car park would not be able to drink

etc etc

I have always understood that to be in charge of a vehicle then you have to have the key in the ignition etc as has been said earlier. Same applies if you pull over to use your phone, if your car is ticking over you are technically still in charge of it.

I am going to change the title of this thread to attract Dougies attention

stew


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## Auchmill

Have a look at this site and this one.

One of the key facts is whether you are in a public place, such as a car park, motorway stopovers etc. I don't think a camp site would be considered a public place since you have to pay to get on. But wherever you are if you intend to drive the next day getting drunk, or even drinking a little too much, the night before is not a good idea as you can still be over the limit next morning.


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## spykal

Hi

It never hurts to have a fresh discussion about this but there have been many threads about it already ...maybe read all those and then lets hope we can pin this one down at last .... what is the "official" line? ...

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4


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## johng1974

from

http://www.motorhomesdirect.co.uk/2007/11/25/alcohol-motorhomes-and-the-law/

You should never inhabit (or be in charge of) a motorhome while intoxicated, if it is not on private land.

must admit, it changes my view on being 'on the road' a bit, i like a wine or two with dinner.. in fact after driving all day I cant think of anything better 8O


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## artona

Hi

Anyone know what the legal understanding of "Being in charge of a vehicle" is?


stew


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## johng1974

very grey area Stew..

all of this discussion seems to depend on so many factors..


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## artona

Hi John

It is a grey area. What would happen if you were in Sainsburys car park and the only driver went in to do the shopping because the other half was drunk?


stew


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## johng1974

hi Stew..

I guess if the shopper has the keys it would be very hard to get a prosecution.. if the keys are in the lock.. the passenger is [all] thats in charge and could be done.. on a bad day.. etc

is sainsburies private or public? or both..


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## maddie

Hi why not give our plods a bit of credit for having a bit of common sence.They do not hassel wagon drivers parked up for the night so why would they hassel you?If you are intending to drive off then you deserve getting done,but if not I don't think they are looking to do you for the sake of it.It's 6 of one half a dozen of the other.
terry


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## artona

Hi Terry

No bashing of the police here. Just trying to understand the law by discussion.


stew


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## carolgavin

It is purely down to the circumstances of each and every occasion as it is a grey area. Should the police consider it is worthy of reporting to court then it is up to the courts to decide whether on the evidence provided it is substantiated. Or whether there is a reasonable excuse for the person to be intoxicated and within the vehicle. In charge is something for the courts to decide an officer can only report what he /she observes, he/she does not make the descision to prosecute. 
The key factor in these circumstances is that if the vehicle is in an innappropriate place for overnight stay then the chances of a report is substantially higher. You should get written permission from the pub owner as this would be a prudent move on anyone considering doing this. Then you can say officer I have permission to stay and this can be produced if challenged. this will show the intention of not moving off (similarily on site you have proof that you do not intend to move off by your payment/booking receipt) 


G


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## Auchmill

It's not quite so grey. If you are in a public place and in charge of a vehicle and have committed an offence or a policeman suspects you may be about to commit an offence then you can be breathalysed.

Here's what a law website says:

"When can the police require a breath test? Any person who is driving, attempting to drive, or in charge of a motor vehicle on the road, or in a public place (eg a pub car park or a garage forecourt), may be required by the police to provide a breath test, to ascertain whether they are over the prescribed limit of alcohol - 35 micrograms of alcohol per 100 millilitres of breath (or 80 milligrams of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood).

The request must be made by a police officer in uniform, but can only be made if one of the following situations apply :-

the police officer has reasonable cause to suspect that you have committed, or are currently committing a moving traffic offence, or 
if, having stopped, an officer has reasonable cause to suspect that the person driving/attempting to drive/in charge of the vehicle has consumed alcohol, or 
the police officer has reasonable cause to believe that you were the person driving/attempting to drive/in charge of a motor vehicle which was involved in an accident." (Lawontheweb.co.uk)

So if you are in a public place, road, layby, public carpark you may be at risk. If you are on private property, eg a fee-paying campsite, you are unlikely to be at risk unless a police officer suspects you may have committed an offence getting there.

Of course, the risk is entirely within one's own hands (or elbows) to control.


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## asprn

Somebody rang? 8O If someone wants my attention, the best thing might be to PM - I only just spotted this.

*Being in charge of a vehicle*
If you've got the keys in your possession (and this also has meaning in law), you can be deemed to be in charge, and it can mean more than having them in your pocket. Two people saying that the other is in charge (whilst being in drink) will not wash. You'll both most likely be arrested. Obviously, if you're in the driving seat, that might indicate who's really in charge, but in the scenario of overnight parking, I strongly suggest you don't drink if you're parked up on a public road or place (for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act). This in itself is a widely-misunderstood subject, but is in fact reasonably simple.

A pub car park is a public place for the purposes of drink/driving - or drink/being-in-charge - until the pub closes. It then reverts to a private place, as the public have no right to be there (the invitation by the landlord is withdrawn). A campsite is not a public place, as you have to pay to get in, neither is CL on a farm. A layby certainly is a public place.

The issue (which has been mentioned) is the likelihood of driving (intention doesn't come into it). If you're tucked up under the duvet, a) the Police will not randomly wake you up for a breath test (they wouldn't initially have the power to do so unless you were suspected of committing a *moving* traffic offence, or suspected of having excess alcohol in your body), and b) if you came to the door and smelt of drink, you may be breath-tested if you're in a public place. You'd be hard pushed not to answer the door if you wanted to avoid further Police interest.

Yadda yadda. The point is - don't consume alcohol whilst in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place. Do what you want whilst in charge of a vehicle in a private place (although bear in mind that private places can change into public places under certain circumstances, e.g. the pub car park, or a farmer's field during a car boot sale.

Dougie.


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## carolgavin

Again, although a police officer has the power to brethalyse under those circumstances it is still up to the Courts to decide whether or not an offence has been committed when all the facts pertaining to the case are known. 
The onus would be on the individual to prove that they intended to stay overnight and did not intend ( or were likely to) to drive. 
The whole grey area is proving or not proving the intention to drive, not something the officer can decide.
Leave the ignition key with the pub owner if you are unsure, no key, no intention to drive drunk or not!! 
Each case will be judged on it's own merits in a court of law if it gets that far.


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## johnandcharlie

So if you're spending the night on a pub car park, stay in the pub until closing time . It then doesn't matter how pissed you are as you'll be staying in a private place. But if you can't handle that much drinking, you could risk getting done if you go to bed before closing time. However, you need to be sober before the pub opens at lunchtime the next day, as you will then be drunk in a public place again. So you need to be in the pub every moment it's open until you become sober enough to drive :lol:.


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## asprn

johnandcharlie said:


> So if you're spending the night on a pub car park, stay in the pub until closing time . It then doesn't matter how pissed you are as you'll be staying in a private place. But if you can't handle that much drinking, you could risk getting done if you go to bed before closing time. However, you need to be sober before the pub opens at lunchtime the next day, as you will then be drunk in a public place again. So you need to be in the pub every moment it's open until you become sober enough to drive :lol:.


lol - pretty well sums it up. 

Dougie.


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## scotchjock

This takes me back to when I used my Renault Master conversion for working around the UK. I had all the creature comforts apart from windows. Very often when parked up for the night, a bang on the door from the police and a voice would ask if anyone was inside. Occasionally I was asked to open up. My reply was 'come back in the morning, I'm in bed'. Never was it challenged, and never did they come back in the morning. I'm sure they would need a warrant if they really wanted to get in. I have parked in supermarket carparks from Inverness to London, laybys, under the M25 underpasses, you name it I was there. One night in Aylesbury, on my return from the pub, I was just about to get in the van when a hand was placed firmly on my shoulder and a voice said 'gotcha'. My reply was 'I live here'. I had to prove ownership and ID myself. Apparently there had a spate of break ins at this car park and the law was doing its job for a change. They told me to have a good night's sleep and no suggestion of a breathalyser. At 6am, the back door was tried from the outside. My reply was f*** off, I'm still in bed. To this day I don't know who it was. But on a serious note, a colleague of mine was a bit over the top with his wild camping. He parked in a layby, windows open, TV in the cab watching Coronation Street, and swigging a can of beer in full view. Plod pulled into the layby, blow into this sir-you're nicked. That was his own fault for being too obvious.


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## namder

As mentioned in previous posts, if you are in a place where the public have access without specific invite, then you are subject to the road traffic act. It is not the police who ultimately decide but the magistrates court and it's the CPS who decide if it is to go to court based on the chances of a successful prosecution.
I think it would be unusual for a court to find guilt if it were "obvious" you were staying put for the night. I speak as a magistrate of some experience.

namder


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## teckie

MAKES ME WONDER....I'm speaking as a NON drinker and never have been one.. if a Motorhomer is staying overnight on a pub car park after drinking surely he is doing the SENSIBLE think by NOT drinking and driving !.

We can pass many public houses on every road in the UK the length and breadth of the country at 10pm every night and what do we see ! car parks full.. all drivers of which must be in the pub drinking !, Then when closing time comes.. they all drive home...how many could be over the drink and drive limit !, Where are the law enforcers to catch them !.

I try very hard not to be out driving after closing time because it makes me shudder to even think how many drunk drivers are behind or passing me on the other side of the road.

Drive safely...and if you MUST drive then be sensible and DON'T drink.


Teckie


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## wobby

I like, love a drink the same as most but when travelling the next day I drink tea. However when on site or at a CL I will have a drink or three. On Aires' I never drink as one might be/have to move on the following day and I'm not sure how the law stands with regards to Aires'.


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## Briarose

Bumped for reply to a question in another topic.
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-614276.html#614276


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## DTPCHEMICALS

Easy answer leave the ignition keys with pub landlord overnight

Dave P


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## Laikadriver

I would always urge at least one driver to remain sober because you never know what is around the corner.

About a year ago I went to a job where a long distance driver called because his truck had rocks thrown at it, smashing the windscreen. He quickly moved the vehicle about 1/2 a mile down the road and called the police. This was recorded in his statement, and I'm sure you can guess what happened next....


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## asprn

Laikadriver said:


> I'm sure you can guess what happened next....


How about:-

The officer attending saw that the driver had a third of a bottle of best Auchentoshan on his dashboard, climbed in the passenger's seat, and the two of them polished it off. Then the officer drove the lorry at high speed back to the station, taking off the gates on the way in, parked it against the back wall, & told the driver to fill his boots & have a nice sleep. The Divisional Superintendent and the officer were both Freemasons, so everyone lived happily ever after.

Do I win a prize? 

Dougie.


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## locovan

No!!! you go to the members bar and wash your mouth out with Lemonade 8O


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## asprn

Yummy.


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## locovan

I have just found an answer to the question Can you drink in your Motorhome
Answer

Check your local laws, but as long as the drinking is behind the "cockpit", it's generally okay. Of course, you have to be over 21. 


Now in an A class and RV it should be if the seats are turned round to face inwards


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## asprn

locovan said:


> Check your local laws, but as long as the drinking is behind the "cockpit", it's generally okay. Of course, you have to be over 21. Now in an A class and RV it should be if the seats are turned round to face inwards


I've grabbed me coat and am running full pelt in the opposite direction....
8O 8O

Byeeeeeeeeee


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## locovan

Coward stop and sort this out. :lol:


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## Nauplia

I know this a bit late and for that I apologise but this vexed question of drinking alcohol and staying in your motorhome overnight seems never to go away. I have noticed it is in the latest CC magazine.

There is a stated case on this subject area. It is Sheldrake v DPP(2004)UKHL 43. It is worth a read if you are really concerned, interested or a bit of a nerd.

In essence, it amplifies the defence against drink driving and allows a defence if the defendant can prove on the balance of probabilities that they did not intend to drive whilst under the influence. It is worth highlighting the 'on the balance of probability' as this is a lesser burden than proving 'beyond reasonable doubt' as is the case in most criminal proceedings. The onus is on the defendant to prove this and not the prosecutor however.

I think that if you were genuinely parked up for the night and had no intention of driving off until your blood/alcohol level was sufficiently low then it would be a foolish Policeman to ask you to undergo a breath test and an even more foolish custody sergeant to proceed with charging you.

My unprofessional advice would to be to try and reason with the officer/sergeant and if they still insist on proceeding with charging then then seek legal advice immediately. I am sure a good solicitor will get you off and probably get costs against the Police as well. No consolation against a ruined holiday though .......


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## asprn

Nauplia said:


> The onus is on the defendant to prove this and not the prosecutor however


Thanks for this. I've not yet researched the stated case you mention, but will do so after my luncheon.  It's worth highlighting where the onus apparently lies though.



Nauplia said:


> I think that if you were genuinely parked up for the night and had no intention of driving off until your blood/alcohol level was sufficiently low then it would be a foolish Policeman to ask you to undergo a breath test and an even more foolish custody sergeant to proceed with charging you


This is a bread-and-butter issue for Police. There is absolutely no merit in becoming embroiled in what would pretty obviously be a genuine camper whose intention clearly was to sleep and not drive. There are not hordes of desperate Bobbies out there roaming dark laybys hoping against hope that a wayward motorhomer will park up and therefore satiate his thirst for being a complete pr*ck. :roll:



Nauplia said:


> My unprofessional advice would to be to try and reason with the officer/sergeant and if they still insist on proceeding with charging then then seek legal advice immediately


Always seek legal advice if arrested It's available free from the Duty Solicitor scheme and is independent of the Police. A lot of people imagine that the Police don't want people to speak to solicitor (probably because of the view that it will stop the Police from stitching people up) but actually legal advice at an early stage benefits everybody, and generally stops people pursuing inaccurate and pointless "defences" which they've got from the Pontiff in the Pub.

Dougie.


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