# rv mot failure, lap seat belts



## delboy57

just taken our rv (rockwood bayport) to warrington borough council bus dept for the mot. its failed on having the two front seats fitted with lap belts rather than the three point seat belts. the rv has had seven previous mot's and passed with the existing lap belts. i've spoken to GEO to ask his advise and he gave me some very valid sections of the vosa documentation to quote which will allow lapbelts, been back on to mot station to quote these but he says this is only valid for vehicles with nine or more seats excluding the drivers. the vosa documentation quotes "an adult harness belt comprising a lap belt and shoulder straps bearing a british standard marking is an acceptable alternative to any of the seat belt types listed". has anyone fitted anything like that to an rv which previously had the lapbelts or does anyone know where i could obtain them. ( i think this may be going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons now that vosa are on to it). any help thanks in advance, cheers, derek


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## 88927

Hi Derek
Our Rockwood also has lap belts and it has passed MOT's from day one (it was imported new in 1995). I hope that this is not a change in the law regarding lapbelts??? There is no provision on our Rockwood to fit 3 point seatbelts, and I suspect this is true of a lot of RV's, as there is no suitable structure in the sidewalls to accomodate the mounting points for the shoulder point.....
Will watch this thread with interest mate, maybe worth getting another test done somewhere else to see if they have the same rulings???
Good luck

Keith


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## mangothemadmonk

If thats what was originally fitted it should be ok. What does it say in your handbook if you have one?
Johnny F


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## androidGB

Gents, can you confirm which seats you are refering to; Is it the driver and front passenger seats?


Andrew


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## Scotjimland

Hi Derek 

Our's has 3 point belts fitted to the driver and front passenger seats, I've checked and they look like original equipment as they are the same make as the other six lap belts .. perhaps ordered at time of build as George was imported new by the previous owner.


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## delboy57

hi all, thanks for replies: Kands, thought of taking it somewhere else but its all computerised now, as soon as they put in the licence number it will come up with the fail certificate along with relevant clauses as to why its failed. Johnnyf , don't have handbook, these are original belts that have passed six times previously. Andrew, it is the drivers and front passenger seats. been round a couple of car spares places cant see anything suitable, opinion seems to be if this is how it was supplied by the maker that should pass mot ok. still hoping somebody out there whos had lapbelts and converted. cheers, derek


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## 94969

this reminds me of an old Mk.1 Cortina I had, it was pre-1964 with no seat belts fitted, they try to fail it on the MOT as the seatbelts didn't come up to standard (well they couldn't as they weren't any fitted ) 
It came down to ''when built it was up to spec.'' yours should be the same 
If the Government change the rules, they should pick up the cost of work to bring your RV up to spec.

Roy.


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## delboy57

am going to ring vosa myself tomorrow, but dont hold out much hope (according to Geo theyre very pedantic), will report back, cheers, derek


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## 97993

Hi Derick have checked and re checked wording and as stated earlier ther are conflicting paragraphs I dont hold out any hope of beating VOSA on this one ,
However I have come up with a simple get around, All 3 point racing harnesses come with fast clip on fixings that use eye bolts as the final fixing/support, all you have to do is drill 3 holes and mount the eye bolts, fit the harness for the test and simply remove it after,saving the harness for the next MOT or hire it out and make some cash :lol:below is a link for a new pair @£60 on e-bay you need to check if they are kite marked and come with the eyebolts (most dont) they are about £2 each and you will need 6, leave lap belts in place put eye bolts next to lapbelt mounts and one at the rear of the seat frame, it does not have to be demonstrated that it fits you, it just has to be there ,
before any one gets on there high horse about defeating the spirit of the rules, they should implement easy to follow regs in plain English and we could all then comply quite simply
Geo

Ebay link


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## geraldandannie

Geo said:


> HERE looks like you will have to cut and paste link as the insert link ain working


here

Worked for me, Geo - did you copy and paste direct from the browser address window, or did you go through somewhere else first?

Gerald


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## 97993

Straight from browser window, tried 3 times and it came out as you see can you edit my post and tidy it up please 
Ta Geo

_Edit - happy to oblige, Geo (Gerald) _

Thats better thanks Gerald,Geo, getting silly this ,Geo, Gerald, Geo, Gerald ,Gerald, Geo. :lol: 
Geo


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## 101600

Geo said:


> Hi Derick have checked and re checked wording and as stated earlier ther are conflicting paragraphs I dont hold out any hope of beating VOSA on this one ,
> However I have come up with a simple get around, All 3 point racing harnesses come with fast clip on fixings that use eye bolts as the final fixing/support, all you have to do is drill 3 holes and mount the eye bolts, fit the harness for the test and simply remove it after,saving the harness for the next MOT or hire it out and make some cash :lol:below is a link for a new pair @£60 on e-bay you need to check if they are kite marked and come with the eyebolts (most dont) they are about £2 each and you will need 6, leave lap belts in place put eye bolts next to lapbelt mounts and one at the rear of the seat frame, it does not have to be demonstrated that it fits you, it just has to be there ,
> before any one gets on there high horse about defeating the spirit of the rules, they should implement easy to follow regs in plain English and we could all then comply quite simply
> Geo
> HEREHERElooks like you will have to cut and paste link as the insert link ain working


Here here Geo, it sounds like a case of let leg doesnt know what the right leg is doing and the brain just dont give a $h!*. You will be lucky if the person on the end of the phone at VOSA even has a driving license 

They try to make all these regs far to complicated for their own good. or mybe its just we are not educated well enough to understand :lol:


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## 101368

delboy57 said:


> just taken our rv (rockwood bayport) to warrington borough council bus dept for the mot. its failed on having the two front seats fitted with lap belts rather than the three point seat belts. the rv has had seven previous mot's and passed with the existing lap belts. i've spoken to GEO to ask his advise and he gave me some very valid sections of the vosa documentation to quote which will allow lapbelts, been back on to mot station to quote these but he says this is only valid for vehicles with nine or more seats excluding the drivers. the vosa documentation quotes "an adult harness belt comprising a lap belt and shoulder straps bearing a british standard marking is an acceptable alternative to any of the seat belt types listed". has anyone fitted anything like that to an rv which previously had the lapbelts or does anyone know where i could obtain them. ( i think this may be going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons now that vosa are on to it). any help thanks in advance, cheers, derek


Last time I had an MOT fail the form had details of how to appeal the decision. Might be worth going down that road. If details aren't on the form then try the VOSA website.


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## Bryan

This must be a very recent change as we had our RV Mot'd in October last year and had no problem with our lap belts on both driver and front passenger seats.

The MOT certificate that we have has a section regarding seatbelt checks which seems to be applicable only for vehicles with more than 8 passenger seats. This section has been completed by the garage as n/a. 

Whilst our vehicle has seating for 10, only 7 plus driver (eight) are fitted with seat belts the other 2 seats are not to be used whilst travelling which makes them habitation seats only.

I think because our passenger seats with belts number less than 8 they have not considered them in any way hence our MOT stating n/a.

Who is the next RV owner due an MOT?

Suzy


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## aultymer

Can I suggest another approach? There is a good reason why Lap and Diagonal belts have replaced Lap only belts in modern vehicles, ie they are better!
Why not fit 3 point belts for your own safety?
I have seen first hand the dent a human head can make in a windscreen when only a lap belt is used. It convinced me that my nearest and dearest must never travel in a front seat fitted with lap only belts.


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## 97201

I have 10 seats, 9 + driver. The driver and front passenger are both 3 point, all the others are lap. This is on a 1995 model.

My re-test MOT is due now but because of the half shaft failure (still waiting for parts from USA) will be delayed.

I went to the local bus co. for the original test this year and was told that my rear number plate lights were illegal as they show white light to the rear (they are dome shaped) but as the RV has passed several MOTs in the past, they didn't write it on the fail certificate.

Ian


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## 88927

Hi
With regard to the fitting of standard three point seat belts in an RV, maybe you could tell us all how to fit them please? There is no suitable mounting point for the shoulder strap as the walls adjacent to the front seats are made of plywood or similar material. As a seat belt mounting point needs to provide a 10 ton loading, how is this to be achieved. No one is suggesting not fitting them on safety grounds, but just how to fit them (and be able to drive the thing without becoming part of an immoveable seat) is the question. My neck would need to be about 5 feet long to hit the screen in our RV, so my concern is not that I would dent the windscreen, more that I could have damage to my spleen and other internal organs......
Ian, if your vehicle is going to be off the road when the tax expires please make sure that you SORN it mate. I once had a fine when my Rolls was in the garage with the engine out in bits, the tax expired and I forgot to SORN it consequently the nasty brigade sent out a fine which they absolutely insisted that I paid, no excuses whatsoever..... Still it is easier than catching criminals or teaching our kids how to read and write eh???

Keith


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## Bryan

Our last RV had full seat belts fitted, it was a 1997 Damon Daybreak. Our current RV which is exactly the same model but is a 1999 does not have them fitted. 

The legalities of whether they should be fitted or not is still not clear to me. 

For personal preference I would prefer that we had full seatbelts and would be interested in having them retrofit if anyone has any experience of this I would appreciate info.

Suzy


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## zaskar

Our 1st RV (1995 Gulfstream Sunsport) had lap belts and sailed through every MOT.
Our second RV (1999 Georgieboy Landau) has 3 point........and I HATE them!!!!! 
I ALWAYS wear a belt, but I much prefered the lap belts in the Gulfstream. The 3 pointers in the Landau are uncomfortable to wear, far too restrictive and the ratchet release on the belt has a mind of it's own (think Robbin Williams - RV the Movie! :evil:  ).
Besides, as has been said, you'd have to be VERY tall to get your head anywhere near the windscreen if an A class crashed!


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## Scotjimland

zaskar said:


> Our second RV (1999 Georgieboy Landau) has 3 point........and I HATE them!!!!!


You and me both.. they are soo restrictive and always 'locking up' :evil:


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## 98452

My RV has lap belts to and passed with flying colour :wink:


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## sallytrafic

royandhelen said:


> this reminds me of an old Mk.1 Cortina I had, it was pre-1964 with no seat belts fitted, they try to fail it on the MOT as the seatbelts didn't come up to standard (well they couldn't as they weren't any fitted )
> It came down to ''when built it was up to spec.'' yours should be the same
> If the Government change the rules, they should pick up the cost of work to bring your RV up to spec.
> 
> Roy.


Correct me if I'm wrong but year of manufacture is only relevant for vehicles that are homologated here. For other imports its the date of import that applies. So if the date of import was after it was compulsory to have three point harnesses then thats what they should have and it doesn't matter how many MOTs its passed. If it is not possible to meet our road laws then it shouldn't be imported. Unless, apparently, if you are a US serviceman stationed in this country. Where, unlike Brits stationed in Germany, their vehicles don't have to comply to local C&U laws.

Regards Frank


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## aultymer

Hi Keith,

You say "With regard to the fitting of standard three point seat belts in an RV, maybe you could tell us all how to fit them please? There is no suitable mounting point for the shoulder strap as the walls adjacent to the front seats are made of plywood or similar material."

Sorry mate I hadn't realised how flimsy an RV structure is.


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## 99573

*seat belts*

our 1999 holiday rambler is due to have its mot this march we have 3 point seat belts in the front seats and lap belts in the rear . we are going to our local bus depot to get it done. are you on about the front seat belts and are we better of getting moted not in a bus depot.


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## 91502

Hi all
I don't yet have this problem as I have not managed the move up into the world of the RV but would love to do so.
A three point harness as used in rally cars can be mounted using the two mounting bolts already in place for your lap belts and a third behind the seat on the floor so this would only necessitate the drilling of one hole.
The only problem I can see is that if used daily it would be in the way when you swivel your seat around. 
The quick release fixings that use an eye bold would be easy to remove but leave the bolt just right to stub you toe on.
Finally many of the cheap harness systems on the market are not for road use and will also fail an mot so make sure you buy ones with the relevant markings.
JP


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## Duadua

Difficult to advise blindfolded as it were, but picking up all the ideas so far and going forward one step further.

Why not use the 3 pt racing harness with the two lap hooks using the existing connections, and look for / arrange for a third connection on the base of the chair at the rear. This way no complaints re swivelling and short / long necks.

We have 3 pt lap belts for driver and co pilot, lap connections on the seat base itself and shoulder strap connected to the side wall. Lap belts elsewhere. Agree it would be nice not to have to have the shoulder connection to the walls.


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## G2EWS

Hi Dellboy,

Interesting info for you so far!

It seems to me that one of us must have reasonable contact with an MOT station whom could confirm if your garage are correct in their assessment!

I guess in the long run, fitting a three point belt would be good and it seems that the only way it can be done is with the racing harness.

Hi Aultymer,

HaHa! However, I guess you would understand that ANY vehicle not designed to have a correct fitting at a certain location would not be strong enough!

But then you probably realised that and wanted a laugh at the expense of us poor RV'ers. You know the ones who drive around in luxury with enough room to swing a battalion of cats! Tee Hee!

Regards

Chris


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## olley

Hi it would seem that bolting through the floor into the chassis for the racing harness would give the strength needed. Ten tons keith is that the loading an anchor point must take? seems very high.

I already have 3 point belts at the front, but I would like to fit 3 point belts to the forward facing dinette seats, to replace the existing lap belts, but a ten ton loading means some hefty steelwork.  

Olley


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## sallytrafic

olley said:


> Hi it would seem that bolting through the floor into the chassis for the racing harness would give the strength needed. Ten tons keith is that the loading an anchor point must take? seems very high.
> 
> I already have 3 point belts at the front, but I would like to fit 3 point belts to the forward facing dinette seats, to replace the existing lap belts, but a ten ton loading means some hefty steelwork.
> 
> Olley


Seems high to me as pilots seats and belt mounts for example are rated at 10G ie they have to be able to withstand a 10G deceleration but when worked out as a force that comes to a lot less than 10tons. Still as you can hang 1 ton off a 5mm bolt it ain't going to be that much bigger for ten tons - 12mm at a (radio engineers) guess.

Regards Frank


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## Duadua

Feeling a bit guilty re my idea when hearing about 10 tonnes pulling strain and this and that, as I am NOT an expert on this.

Better discard my idea before someone blames me in this litigious society in which we live.

Having said that do the drivers and pilot seats withstand the same strain? 

No jokes about 10 ton drivers!


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## delboy57

hi all, thanks very much for all your inputs. well i rang vosa this morning and spoke to a very nice young welsh girl (they are also based in swansea same as dvla) and guess what no matter what direction i took the conversation she always went back and quoted the section about three point belts (very reminiscent of little britain "computer says no"), so thats that and maybe fair comment. i've booked into a company called elite in stockport next wednesday (thats all they do, fit seat belts to all types of vehicles) and they are going to supply and fit two three point belts at a cost of £125 plus vat each (not cheap i think). i think they will use the two existing lap points and one more on the floor which could be one of the four bolts that hold the chair in position (they go through the chair plate, the rv floor and through the rv chassis). the other bit they have to do is to enter the top of the seat back and fit a strap guide to ensure the strap does not slide off the seat in a bump. when its done i'll post a photo. i'm just glad there seems to be a solution and as this company was where the staff from warrington bus sheds went to learn all about seatbelts and seem to be associated with manchester university they should know what they're doing, cheers, derek


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## 88927

aultymer said:


> Sorry mate I hadn't realised how flimsy an RV structure is.


Having rebuilt the front (and rear) end of a Hymer, I know which vehicle I would rather have a crash in matey.... and it isn't built in Germany :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Please see my pictures of the Hymer front end if you want to discuss flimsy :wink: :wink:

Keith


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## sallytrafic

Duadua said:


> Feeling a bit guilty re my idea when hearing about 10 tonnes pulling strain and this and that, as I am NOT an expert on this.
> 
> Better discard my idea before someone blames me in this litigious society in which we live.
> 
> Having said that do the drivers and pilot seats withstand the same strain?
> 
> No jokes about 10 ton drivers!


 On a helicopter crash that I know about where the seat mounts sheared both pilot and crewman died but 10g is just about survivable I would think. The rest of the aircraft bits were held together by the wiring looms and it provided many a training aid for the aircraft engineering school once the air accident people released all the bits.

Regards Frank


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## aultymer

Hi again Keith,
Nice pics and I too have had to remake and refit the plywood panel because of rot. I didn't seek to cause offence but am gratified that my suggestion to fit 3 point belts is being adopted (albeit with some prompting from the authorites) in spite of your fears regarding fitting to an RV structure.

How quickly you forget how you loved your Hymie -- "Another glorious weekend away. "I'm loving it" ".


and yes I am jealous that I cant afford to buy or run an RV even though I have no desire to own never mind swing a cat!!


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## G2EWS

RV, I'm loving it!


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## 88927

Hi aultymer
None taken :lol: :lol: Just pointing out some facts :lol: .
have not forgotten the trips out in the Hymer, how could I, they were great, especially after all the work involved in getting it ready for those trips......
You should never feel jealous about RV's mate, they are just another type of motorhome, I cannot park mine easily and nip in the shop for a paper or some **** so they all have plusses and minuses.....
Regarding the belts (back on topic now before we get slapped :lol: ), I still have reservations about bolting a belt to even the floor because it is made of timber as well.... After Frank has pointed out that the 10 tons I quoted is very wrong ( I would love to see that calculation by the way Frank, as the test for seat belt anchorage, so I am led to believe, is to apply a load in the forward direction, using the belt and the B Post must deform before the belt snaps......) I would be amazed if the floor on any motorhome would provide security against a 10g force, so back to the original position of mine, where do you fit the third end, as my understanding is that it must be attached to a structural component of the vehicles frame?

Keith


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## olley

Hi keith through the floor and the chassis rail should do it.  

Just going off topic for a sec. can you tell sharon we are booked in to the shire horse show.

Thanks
Olley


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## sallytrafic

kands said:


> Hi aultymer
> None taken :lol: :lol: Just pointing out some facts :lol: .
> have not forgotten the trips out in the Hymer, how could I, they were great, especially after all the work involved in getting it ready for those trips......
> You should never feel jealous about RV's mate, they are just another type of motorhome, I cannot park mine easily and nip in the shop for a paper or some **** so they all have plusses and minuses.....
> Regarding the belts (back on topic now before we get slapped :lol: ), I still have reservations about bolting a belt to even the floor because it is made of timber as well.... After Frank has pointed out that the 10 tons I quoted is very wrong ( I would love to see that calculation by the way Frank, as the test for seat belt anchorage, so I am led to believe, is to apply a load in the forward direction, using the belt and the B Post must deform before the belt snaps......) I would be amazed if the floor on any motorhome would provide security against a 10g force, so back to the original position of mine, where do you fit the third end, as my understanding is that it must be attached to a structural component of the vehicles frame?
> 
> Keith


I din't say they were very wrong Keith I said seemed high but easily acheived.

The seats in a gazelle are bolted on to the floor. All the seat harness attachments are on the seat. The floor is made of a paper honeycomb faced with thin (less than 1mm possibly less than 0.5mm thick) aluminium alloy all glued together, there are spreaders around the bolt holes made of a second thickness of the facing alloy and spacers within the bolt holes to prevent crushing if slightly overtorqued. If you are determined you could push a six inch nail through the structure with your bare hands. RV cross members have got to be stronger than that. Given that the seat and pilot combined weigh about 100Kg then to cope with 10g the bolts and floor must be able to support a 1000kg - a metric tonne.

Regards frank


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## 88927

Hi Olley
Message passed mate :lol: :lol: 
Thanks Frank, I though Velocity factored into the equasion somewhere not just static g, as experienced in a centrifuge?
I would also be amazed if a seat belt anchorage only provided for 1000Kgs or even 2000Kgs???
Not trying to be picky here at all, I am just trying to understand so that I can make an informed decision :lol: :lol: 

Keith


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## sallytrafic

What decides how much g happens in a crash is the time over which the velocity reduces so yes velocity figures as well as time and how well the crumple zones work etc but speaking in terms of 10g conveniently removes the need to take those considerations further ie you don't need to know how you got to 10g just how to deal with it when you get there. Weight being a force as opposed to mass already has 1g factored in but when you weigh something you normally don't bother with g and you assume its the same as mass, In this case with 10g the mass is multiplied by 10 to give the resultant force which in the case of the pilot seat that I am using as am example is 1000Kg 

Regards Frank


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## 101125

Just to shed some light on this, we install full harness seat belts into construction equipment, our seats are tested at MIRA prior to sale IIRC the test procedure is 'the seat belt needed to withstand a simultaneous pull of 9,000 Newtons on the lap webbing and 7,000 Newtons on the shoulder webbing for a period of ten seconds' 

personnally after seeing the tests and working in this industry for over 10years I would never retro fit any type of harness or lap and diagonal seat belt to an existing seat, they are not strong enough.


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## sallytrafic

spill said:


> Just to shed some light on this, we install full harness seat belts into construction equipment, our seats are tested at MIRA prior to sale IIRC the test procedure is 'the seat belt needed to withstand a simultaneous pull of 9,000 Newtons on the lap webbing and 7,000 Newtons on the shoulder webbing for a period of ten seconds'
> 
> personnally after seeing the tests and working in this industry for over 10years I would never retro fit any type of harness or lap and diagonal seat belt to an existing seat, they are not strong enough.


So at about 10 Newtons to a Kg (force) 9000 Newtons = 900Kg which is a bit less than my metric ton which I have been saying. Not bad for an avionics engineer eh! Any comment Keith?

Regards Frank


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## 88927

sallytrafic said:


> Any comment Keith?
> 
> Regards Frank


As I am still trying to learn and understand the potential problem that I may have in the near future I feel I am not in a position to comment Frank, only do as I am doing, asking questions and saying what I understand to be the truth......

One more question... Are the regulations and tests the same for construction equipment as they are for motor vehicles to be used on the roads?

Keith


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## sersol

Hi all I can't & don't want to,do any clever calculations here,For what its worth, if say I were involved in head on accident I would think that there may be a better chance of less injury in an RV.BUT I would still prefer 3 point seat belts (mine are fitted into Isri seats).
Regardless of what the mot standards are I believe 3 points are better than 2. Is it not possible to fit these type of seats into an RV.
NO incoming please, just a matter of safety in my humble opinion (sorry)  
Gary


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## 88781

What's the score with new ones then? If I won the Lottery and treated myself to a brand new Winnebago Adventurer from Dudleys, would it fail the MOT in three years time under current seat belt laws, and what comeback if any would I have from the dealer re compensation? 
Are UK dealers of American RV's up to date with legislation? 

Dave


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## olley

Hi Dave, mines an 04 and its got lap and diagonal so should be OK. An 02 Holiday Rambler we looked at, and I took for a drive also had them.

Olley


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## 88781

Right I'll go and pick my six winning numbers! :lol: :lol: 

Dave


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## 97932

Hi All
Going to ring Travelworld first thing in the morning. We are ment to be picking our Thor Infinity up in April and it only has lap belts fitted. They are going to MOT it before we pick it up will see what they have to say.Will post reply tomorrow when we have spoken to them.

Joan and Peter


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## 97932

Hi All

Just rung Travelworld this morning re seat belts. They havn't heard of any problems with MOT and lap belts but they are going to look into it and let us know if there is a problem.
Joan and Peter


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## 101125

kands said:


> One more question... Are the regulations and tests the same for construction equipment as they are for motor vehicles to be used on the roads?
> 
> Keith


Hi Keith

Believe it or not the standard for earth-moving equipment in Europe ISO6683 is a requirement for lapbelts only, we as a company are pushing for three point fixings which the standard as described previously is ironically a US standard SAE J2292. Can't comment on automotive standards, but I believe they only have to be type approved which should have some type of ISO test attributed.

As for integrated solutions, you have three options grammer, kab or isringhausen. Just ensure the vehicle floor mountings conform to ECE14/ADD 13/REV 1/AMMEND 1 or equivalent before fitting this type of seat and belt.


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## 88927

Hi Spill
Thanks for that useful and informative information mate...
Ironic indeed that the 3 point standard is a US one isn't it? The point that you made about the floor mountings is where I am having difficulties to be honest. I cannot see how to fix a 3 point mounting to a suitable location on the floor (the walls are an instant no no) that will provide a strong enough mount. The floor is made of timber as you will know, therefore one would have to somehow secure through the floor and affix to a chassis member but this is some distance away from the ideal point. I can only assume therefore that one would need to utilise a length of (say) steel wire rope and conjure up some sort of permanent fixing to attach the 3rd point of the seatbelt.....
How would this work? What approvals would be required? Would it pass an MOT? What size rope and fixings would be required? The list is endless and I really would like to know how to proceed before my MOT in June.
I do not believe that the answers are at all simple to this dilemma, which is why I have been asking the questions, but I do thank you for your help and that of others in trying to overcome this without the need to poke fun, after all isn't this type of thing the very nub of these forums? Or do we poke fun at anyone with a cassette problem, for example, in the future????? :roll: :roll: 
Many thanks again

Keith


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## sallytrafic

The seat belts on my van are fixed at the shoulder to a piece of steel 1.4 mm thick so I wouldn't rule out a substantial wood floor with the right spreaders. (I can't get my callipers in to measure the floor mounts) The Gazelle floor that I referred to earlier is largely made of paper.

Regards Frank


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## 101125

As for mounting and I can only comment on construction equipment we always inspect the floor first, the amount of times we are asked to install a seat and harness onto a hinged battery box is unbelievable :roll: 

A standard set by my company, if unsuitable we take the section out and reinforce with 5mm plate, or we use 5mm plate to spread the load over a larger surface area, and always relace mounting bolts with 8mm HT sets. We also install a tether strap between lapbelt mounting points and chassis rails, this is made of seat belt webbing. 

We may be over cautious but I have seen the outcome of a dumptruck rollover and eject the seat and the operator who was strapped to it through the windscreen.

TBH though we very rarely these days have to go to these extents as most of the time we are replacing like for like 

All the best
Pete


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## 101125

One final point any type of restraint system used whether linking to the third point of the harness or the seat belt it's self must be 'e' marked IIRC to pass an MOT.


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## delboy57

took rv to have seatbelts fitted wednesday, done and got certificate saying it complied with this that and the other to prove it. took back to mot station today and guess what he refused to pass it again, he wants me to go back tomorrow and have it photographed which he will fax to vosa (he said mine was a test case and it had to be right?????????). the belt fitter had positioned the inertia reel part on a substantial bracket then utilised one of the seat anchor bolts ie through seat plate/rv floor and chassis girder. the part that the belt clips into was bolted using one of the existing lap belt anchors in the seat frame. to stop the belt from sliding off the seat he fitted a guide on top of the seat. it worked fine and actually felt ok. i'll take it back tomorrow and let you know what happens, cheers, derek


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## sallytrafic

delboy57 said:


> took rv to have seatbelts fitted wednesday, done and got certificate saying it complied with this that and the other to prove it. took back to mot station today and guess what he refused to pass it again, he wants me to go back tomorrow and have it photographed which he will fax to vosa (he said mine was a test case and it had to be right?????????). the belt fitter had positioned the inertia reel part on a substantial bracket then utilised one of the seat anchor bolts ie through seat plate/rv floor and chassis girder. the part that the belt clips into was bolted using one of the existing lap belt anchors in the seat frame. to stop the belt from sliding off the seat he fitted a guide on top of the seat. it worked fine and actually felt ok. i'll take it back tomorrow and let you know what happens, cheers, derek


hope it goes well
Frank


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## 101411

Sounds to me like your examiner is a complete tos**r!!

What an uptight jobsworth, why don't you bung him £10.00 and tell him to go and buy himself a life??

Seriously though looks like they did a great job of the installation, looks really well made.

Let us know how it goes

Dazzer


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## loddy

Just taken delivery of a 1997 Trek with a new MOT fitted with lap only belts, past mot certificates are with vehicle history and it has past a least 5 times before. I have a friend working within VOSA and shall ask the relevant question.

regards Loddy


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## loddy

*seat belts*

I have just checked with VOSA 
and vehicles with a DGW of over 3500kg used between 1st Oct 1988 and 30th Sept 2001 had no requirement for seatbelts, if fitted they must be tested,, the guy thats just had 3 point belts fitted should go back to the testing station and supply the tester with glasses!!!!

This information was obtained by myself a retired tester who asked someone in a high place.
Regards LODDY


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## 97993

Your information is wrong you /he have chosen to read the section that will give you the answer you want, you / he needs to read regs in full context and note number of seats as well as gvw year etc
Get your friend to put it in writing on Vosa headed paper and i will gladly except his/your interpretation
Geo 
Current tester with friends in higher places 8O :lol: 
I might add I do not agree with Vosa,s stand on this subject


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## loddy

*seat belts*

Hi Geo
I take on board what you say,I did tell my friend it was a safari with no forward facing seats apart from the 2 obvious ones, so he may be right on the information given, I shall follow it up and apolagise if I have misled anyone.

regards LODDY


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## delboy57

hi all, sorry for delay in replying but i was waiting for the mot man to get back to me. i went back to mot station and the guy took some photos of the seat belt and he faxed these to vosa to look at along with the certificate i'd got from the seat belt fitter (see attached). i did mention to him that the guy who had actually fitted the seat belt had said to me that there was misunderstanding as to what three point seatbelt means, ie on mine the floor mount bolt which secures the reel is one point, the bolt which secures the receptical to the seat is two and the buckle clipping in is three. the mot man was not convinced and said he would talk to vosa. half an hour later he came back and said vosa had agreed that was correct it was a three point seat belt however they hadn't received the photos to examine them but they instructed the mot man to pass my rv and if after examining the photos they changed their mind it would fail next year. so i got my pass certificate. he said he would get in touch with me when vosa had been in touch, i contacted him yesterday and vosa hadn't been it touch, he said he was going to ring them today, friday, but he hasn't been back on to me. the mot man did say that he has had another rv owner in with lap belts and he failed that and said the owner was going to fit traditional belts by fitting a top anchor through the rv wall to a plate on the outside (sounds nice). cheers, derek ps wont let me add photo of certificate


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## 102098

That's an interesting point about the 3 point bit.... I didn't know that; had always thought that 3 point meant 1 point securing the reel (if enertia), 2nd point securing belt fixing at shoulder height and the 3rd point as being the receiver bolted to the floor /sill/seat area.

I love Vosa's attitude: pass it this year and maybe fail it next if we don't like the look! Nutsville......

Yeah, the guy putting the plate on the outside of his Rv..... that sound's like a really good way to do it.... eh, not!


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## 99573

*seat belts*

our van was moted this week no problem with the seat belts we have 3 point belts.but it failed on a leaking shock absorber so will have to wait for them to come from usa. so long for going away over easter. we tried several suppliers in the uk no luck


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## 97993

> Yeah, the guy putting the plate on the outside of his Rv..... that sound's like a really good way to do it.... eh, not!


Wont look to bad if he does it properly, he could use those wrought iron crosses they use on listed building to keep the walls from buldging out
should be austheticly pleasing that :lol: 
Geo


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## 97993

> I love Vosa's attitude: pass it this year and maybe fail it next if we don't like the look


We had a special notice about European imported quads that fall in to class 4 tests, they have a hydraulic hand brake, as we all know from the A frame debate the requirements call for a mechanical system, we have been told to pass the hydraulic brake and give a written (as in official computor generated)advise that next year it may fail, it also may not if the EU brigade get involed, anyone crossing their fingers,Brake Buddies are hydraulic are they not!!!!!!!!!!!! 8O 
Geo


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## 88781

Geo,.. Are brake buddies not vacuum/air operated, (litle motor inside the unit that sits on the seat) works of air pressure to apply force to the brake pedal?

http://www.brakebuddy.com/products.html

MnD


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## 97993

Yes dave but you have to learn to think Vosa, tha final part of the sytem applies the foot brake as you or i do, then its the *Hydraulics* that apply the brakes, as oposed to a mechanical devise,
Geo


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## 88781

Vosa thinking,.. I'm so out of touch mate, not had to do it for 6 years  

Cheers Dave


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## 101411

Just a picky point but if the final drive to the pedal is air driven then its pneumatic not hydraulic. Not sure if this has any bearing on the legislation or not though.

Dazzer


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## delboy57

hi all, well the mot man rang on friday and said vosa had been in touch and said he wanted more photos, i obliged and sent them direct to vosa with a copy to the mot man and elite seat belt fitters. mot man rang back said vosa wanted more photos, i obliged again and guess what vosa have accepted that the belts are acceptable so hayho off we go. the guy who said he was going to put a plate on the outside for the third point was told by elite that it was not possible as the body was not strong enough for this and instead he has had some harness arrangement with a frame at a cost of £500. i have a contact no for him and i might contact him.
i havnt been on this site for a couple of days as we have moved out of our house and are now "fulltiming", i will post a topic on the fulltiming forum. thanks to everyone who has contributed to this topic and hope that the mot's will be ok for everyone, cheers, derek


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## olley

Hi guys, brothers just downloaded this from VOSA 

Passenger and dual purpose vehicles with no more than 8 passenger seats first used after 31 March 1981 must have 3 point lap and diagonal for both driver and front passenger seats. No requirement for rear seats to have any belts at all.

Its dated 10 jan 05

Olley


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## 107112

I just had mine mot'd at a VOSA run station. It would appear that when it came in from US it had lap belts but they were not there when last owner had it and still not there (bracket removed). Passed MOT last year at same VOSA station and this year they queried it iwth technical dept in Bristol. I now have an exempt cert for mine from VOSA. 

Would still like to fit seats with lap and diagonal as fitted to 1997 Chrysler Sebring not found any other suitable second hand yet. 

Seen new seats available here but they start at 795 :evil: each and then there would be the swivel mechanics to look at to see if they were strong enough.


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## LC1962

Br00n1e said:


> I just had mine mot'd at a VOSA run station. It would appear that when it came in from US it had lap belts but they were not there when last owner had it and still not there (bracket removed). Passed MOT last year at same VOSA station and this year they queried it iwth technical dept in Bristol. I now have an exempt cert for mine from VOSA.
> 
> Would still like to fit seats with lap and diagonal as fitted to 1997 Chrysler Sebring not found any other suitable second hand yet.
> 
> Seen new seats available here but they start at 795 :evil: each and then there would be the swivel mechanics to look at to see if they were strong enough.


Gav, if that is the exact belt you are looking for I know where to get them. Drop me an email or call.
Cheers
Linda


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## 107112

Okay will call soon, 
transformer fitted today working a treat so ready for next weekend.

Cheers to you n' your James


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## 103840

*seat belts*

Hi everyone, just returned from the RV capital of the world, Phoenix in Arizona.
Been looking at some great RV`s. The RV`s with 3 point diagonal belts have an ally frame work for the belt to fit too and a steel fire wall. Those with lap belts don`t. So over all less crash protection.
I saw some new RV`s at Travelworld Shropshire with lap belts and the sales man will tell you they are legal and will pass the MOT when due!!!


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