# Winter tyres warning



## bigee

Just a warning to anyone who has fitted winter tyres to their motor home to make driving in these adverse conditions safer like i have done. Little did i know [untill a friend pointed it out to me] that by doing this you need to imform your insurance company, otherwise your insurance could be void should you have to make a claim. May not apply to all insurance companys but well worth checking out. I dont remember this being pointed out to me when i took out the policy and seems to me just another sneeky ploy to not have to pay out in the event of a claim, or is it just me?


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## Techno100

Some friend :lol: Personally I think that's nonsense as long as they are suitable for the job and the correct size


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## javea

Have a look at the following statement by the Association of British Insurers, you may find it helpful:

http://www.abi.org.uk/Information/C...r_Tyres__The_Motor_Insurance_Committment.aspx

Mike


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## Techno100

Interesting but no where does it say you're not insured if you don't tell them. They would also have to officially tell you if that were the case.


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## 113016

So, how would they react when el cheapo budget tyres are fitted, with no added safety at anytime :lol: longer stopping distances.
I understand that winter tyres have longer stopping distance if used during hot weather.


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## Sideways86

I don't get it sorry, a lot of campers now come with an M&S type tyre as oem?


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## 113016

Sideways86 said:


> I don't get it sorry, a lot of campers now come with an M&S type tyre as oem?


Winter tyres are better than the M & S for snow and ice.
M & S are a half way house!


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## Techno100

That's original equipment.

I've never in my life been asked what tyres are on my car bike motorhome bicycle :roll:


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## bigee

Yes you're right, but lets be honest, is it possible to be in the right in the eyes of insurance companys, wont they always find a reason to not pay out for a claim?


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## Techno100

Just make sure it's never your fault :lol:


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## bigee

Yep, good advice.


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## Sideways86

you will find its the law of some countries to fit a fully snow compatible tyre during certain months of the year and also above certain heights above sea level you must carry snow chains etc.

Or go to Tenerife on a plane lol !


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## Stanner

Sideways86 said:


> I don't get it sorry, a lot of campers now come with an M&S type tyre as oem?


M+S :wink:

M&S don't make tyres so far as I know.


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## Sideways86

Stanner said:


> Sideways86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get it sorry, a lot of campers now come with an M&S type tyre as oem?
> 
> 
> 
> M+S :wink:
> 
> M&S don't make tyres so far as I know.
Click to expand...

Well what else can I expect! lol


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## Stanner

PS
http://www.blackcircles.com/tyres/winter-tyres/laws-and-legislation


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## Stanner

Sideways86 said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sideways86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get it sorry, a lot of campers now come with an M&S type tyre as oem?
> 
> 
> 
> M+S :wink:
> 
> M&S don't make tyres so far as I know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well what else can I expect! lol
Click to expand...

I was only getting in quick before teemyob saw it :wink:


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## Techno100

Imagine if some pratt ran into your back end and his insurance wouldn't pay cos he'd not told em he had winter tyres fitted 8O


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## javea

bigee said:


> Yes you're right, but lets be honest, is it possible to be in the right in the eyes of insurance companys, wont they always find a reason to not pay out for a claim?


I have to say, with more than 50 years involvement in commercial insurance, from the individual private car to clients paying in excess of £1,000,000, that this view is not reflective of the facts.

There will be circumstances where insurers will repudiate a claim but it will be based upon a breach of the policy conditions, on the other hand I have personally been involved in instances where the insurer could have refused to deal with the claim but have waived their right so to do and paid out.

Very often you do not hear the full facts from the person complaining about the actions of the insurer, they can have a selective memory about the reasons behind the declinature.

If there has been a mistake in dealing with the claim, and I am not saying that this cannot happen, a complaint to the Insurance Ombudsman will see it rectified.

Mike


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## rotorywing

http://www.abi.org.uk/Information/C...r_Tyres__The_Motor_Insurance_Committment.aspx

It does quote 'CARS'

Please note that this Commitment only applies to 'cars' used for personal use that are insured under a private or personal use car insurance policy.


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## ardgour

Grath said:


> Sideways86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get it sorry, a lot of campers now come with an M&S type tyre as oem?
> 
> 
> 
> Winter tyres are better than the M & S for snow and ice.
> M & S are a half way house!
Click to expand...

M&S tyres with the snowflake symbol are the standard 'winter' tyre sold in the UK, and accepted by police in those european countries that require winter tyres fitted to vehicles as complying with their legislation.
We have them on the car and had them on the last MH - they make a huge difference to the road holding in slush, snow and ice.
My insurance company have never asked me what make of tyres I have fitted on the car, reading the policy documents it only seems to require that the vehicle is kept in a roadworthy condition in accordance with the manufacturers instructions
Chris


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## javea

rotorywing said:


> http://www.abi.org.uk/Information/Consumers/General/Winter_Tyres__The_Motor_Insurance_Committment.aspx
> 
> It does quote 'CARS'
> 
> Please note that this Commitment only applies to 'cars' used for personal use that are insured under a private or personal use car insurance policy.


Correct but they couldn't word it as 'any motor vehicle' as otherwise it would include all sorts of vehicles like 44 tonne lorries, coaches, tractors, etc, etc. A motorhome is usually operated like a private car and the policy wordings have a lot of similarities. If company XZY on the ABI list 
confirms that they do not require notification of the fitting of winter tyres they would be in an invidious position if they repudiated a claim involving a motor home on their portfolio.

Remember that you are actually improving the risk as far as they are concerned as your vehicle will be safer during the winter months.

Whilst better in winter the tyres should certainly be replaced by normal tyres at the end of winter as they do not exhibit the same stopping distances in warmer weather.

I believe that by law motorists in Germany for example have to fit winter tyres in October and replace them sometime in March? , would make sense here as well.

Mike

Mike


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## javea

ardgour said:


> Grath said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sideways86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get it sorry, a lot of campers now come with an M&S type tyre as oem?
> 
> 
> 
> Winter tyres are better than the M & S for snow and ice.
> M & S are a half way house!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We have them on the car and had them on the last MH - they make a huge difference to the road holding in slush, snow and ice.
> 
> Chris
Click to expand...

Chris, You are obviously a convert, for the benefit of others I will describe an experiment my son and I carried out last night:

The paddock was covered in virgin snow, about 6" thick.

My car: 3 litre twin turbo Jaguar diesel with 'Winter mode' on transmissiom. Summer tyres

His car: 3 litre twin turbo BMW 335d remapped to maximum power,
Winter tyres.

Results: initially the Winter mode on my car did a good job with full throttle, wheels turned very slowly until they gripped and then the car accelerated slowly, increasing speed gradually. Eased off throttle but when steering around the back end did swing out considerably. Couple of circuits stopped for a few minutes, car had sunk into soft ground under snow and was stuck - had to tow it out withX5.

Son's car: No winter mode facility on it, started without any wheelspin, drove round in circles with no rear end breakaway, stopped in same mud patch - pulled out with ease.

I shall certainly be fitting winters to my car in November this year! 

Mike


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## DTPCHEMICALS

Scudo van normal tyres loaded with threequaters of a ton of stock. Never a problem with the snow. Driver experiance come to mind. As for op so long as your vehicle has correct size tyres and is in a roadworthy condition no problems.. No one checked the tyres on the car that ran into my daughters car, or hers either.
Dave p


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## peribro

I can understand why insurers would be interested in what tyres are fitted and I think that to date they have been extremely tolerant of the situation. There is no doubt that winter tyres are much more efficient in winter conditions and particularly when the temperature is below 7C. Conversely winter tyres are vastly less efficient in summer months and braking distances are much increased. If I was an insurer I would not want my insured customers driving around with winter tyres in the summer. 

However insurers seem to have a complete disregard for the fact that many new cars in the UK are sold with tyres that are completely unsuitable for winter conditions, presumably because they were a standard manufacturer's fit. Three or four years ago I had a German built 4x4 with all sorts of buttons for everything you can imagine yet when it came to an inch or so of snow the car was useless. Small front wheel drive hatchbacks were going past me! The reason was because the car had Pirelli P Zero low profile tyres fitted that, when I read the handbook, were stated to be unsuitable for driving conditions where the temperature is below 7C! For the last 3 years I have fitted winter tyres to our Galaxy people carrier in November and the driving experience has been transformational. As for insurance companies, I have notified them and they have in turn noted the fact accordingly.

When it comes to motorhomes I have stated my views on this a number of times previously, but I think that fitting winter tyres for use at any time other than the winter is a great mistake because of the greatly increased braking distances in temperatures above 7C, which of course is when most people drive their motorhomes. 

M&S tyres, which I have on my motorhome, are a different matter though and should not be confused with winter tyres.


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## Stanner

peribro said:


> I can understand why insurers would be interested in what tyres are fitted and I think that to date they have been extremely tolerant of the situation. There is no doubt that winter tyres are much more efficient in winter conditions and particularly when the temperature is below 7C. Conversely winter tyres are vastly less efficient in summer months and braking distances are much increased. If I was an insurer I would not want my insured customers driving around with winter tyres in the summer.
> 
> However insurers seem to have a complete disregard for the fact that many new cars in the UK are sold with tyres that are completely unsuitable for winter conditions, presumably because they were a standard manufacturer's fit. Three or four years ago I had a German built 4x4 with all sorts of buttons for everything you can imagine yet when it came to an inch or so of snow the car was useless. Small front wheel drive hatchbacks were going past me! The reason was because the car had Pirelli P Zero low profile tyres fitted that, when I read the handbook, were stated to be unsuitable for driving conditions where the temperature is below 7C! For the last 3 years I have fitted winter tyres to our Galaxy people carrier in November and the driving experience has been transformational. As for insurance companies, I have notified them and they have in turn noted the fact accordingly.
> 
> When it comes to motorhomes I have stated my views on this a number of times previously, but I think that fitting winter tyres for use at any time other than the winter is a great mistake because of the greatly increased braking distances in temperatures above 7C, which of course is when most people drive their motorhomes.
> 
> M&S tyres, which I have on my motorhome, are a different matter though and should not be confused with winter tyres.


Slight over use of the words "greatly" & "vastly" there. :wink:

The difference between summer and winter tyres in summer is negligible compared to the VAST difference between summer and winter tyres in the winter.

And NO ONE ever questions the use of summer tyres all year round. :roll:


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## Spacerunner

javea said:


> Whilst better in winter the tyres should certainly be replaced by normal tyres at the end of winter as they do not exhibit the same stopping distances in warmer weather.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Mike


So when did winter end last year?

As someone posted on MHF some time ago UK weather has hardly a fortnight's summer weather to justify fitting summer tyres. Whereas fitting winter tyres could be fully justified 10 months of the year.


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## 113016

Stanner said:


> peribro said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand why insurers would be interested in what tyres are fitted and I think that to date they have been extremely tolerant of the situation. There is no doubt that winter tyres are much more efficient in winter conditions and particularly when the temperature is below 7C. Conversely winter tyres are vastly less efficient in summer months and braking distances are much increased. If I was an insurer I would not want my insured customers driving around with winter tyres in the summer.
> 
> When it comes to motorhomes I have stated my views on this a number of times previously, but I think that fitting winter tyres for use at any time other than the winter is a great mistake because of the greatly increased braking distances in temperatures above 7C, which of course is when most people drive their motorhomes.
> 
> And NO ONE ever questions the use of summer tyres all year round. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner, get ya specs cleaned, LOL!ha ha!
> 
> I mentioned, but did not question, on page one that I believe winter tyres have longer stopping distances during summer driving
> 
> I also believe that the normal M + S tyres that we have on M/H's are not full winter tyres, but are acceptable in places such as Germany where winter tyres are required.
> 
> The first one below is the normal M+S which is normal on M/H;s
> The second is the full winter tyre.
> I am not sure if they do an Alpine specifically for Camping Cars
> 
> http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/michelin-agilis-camping
> 
> http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/michelin-agilis-alpin
Click to expand...


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## 113016

I have found the answer on a Michelin Forum.

The Agilis Camping with the M+S is NOT a full winter tyre, but certainly helps traction.
The Agilis Alpine is a full winter tyre, but is not a Motorhome tyre and should not be run at such high tyre pressures as some of us do.

The Agilis Camping M+S is not designed for severe snow, the Agilis Alpine is.

See link,

http://motorsport.michelin.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=169

other brands available.


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## Techno100

I drove through 400 miles of snow from the M11 to Orlean where it finally cleared. Passed many vehicles that got stuck.
I'm completely happy with Agilis M&S


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## Mark993

This thread is ridiculous! Surely we should tell insurance company if we DON'T fit winter tyres!


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## listerdiesel

Many A/T or All-Terrain tyres are M+S rated as standard, the ones we have on are so labelled, and they are road tyres, not 'knobblies'.

One other aspect that I am querying with my own insurers is that of load and speed rating.

My vehicle handbook shows 105H to 109H for the speed and load ratings, but we use 106T rated tyres.

In speed terms, H is 130 mph, T is 118mph, so not big difference to me, I'm never going to get up to that speed!

106 is 2094lbs per tyre, 109 is 2271lbs per tyre, the max gross weight of the vehicle is 6063lbs so either will cover it. 

There is also a standard fitment size of 105H which again will be more than the gross vehicle weight, and all sizes are more than required for the maximum axle loading/

I don't think it will be an issue, nor does our broker, but I have put it all in writing and asked for their confirmation that we are OK.

Peter


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## 113016

Grath said:


> I have found the answer on a Michelin Forum.
> 
> The Agilis Camping with the M+S is NOT a full winter tyre, but certainly helps traction.
> The Agilis Alpine is a full winter tyre, but is not a Motorhome tyre and should not be run at such high tyre pressures as some of us do.
> 
> The Agilis Camping M+S is not designed for severe snow, the Agilis Alpine is.
> 
> See link,
> 
> http://motorsport.michelin.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=169
> 
> other brands available.


Personally, I don't have a problem with the Michelin Agilis Camping, infact, I had them on my previous van, just after the second edition came out and I was quite impressed.
The van we now own has Continentals and I will have to wait and see how they go.
My car is very low mileage and it will take years at 2k per year to wear them out. I am thinking of putting full winter tyres on it, so as to make it easier to visit our daughter who liver up a few hills. I am not bothered if they wear out quicker or if the summer stopping distance is a little longer. I will live with it!


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## raynipper

Agreed Grath.
Both my Hobby and VW Golf have winter tyres fitted cos they were cheaper.!!!
Both can gain traction on wet grass and even lose gravel where our ZX on regular summer tyres spins.

The Golf will happily do 130kph. for hours with no noticable noise or loss of control in Summer.

Ray.


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## peribro

Stanner said:


> Slight over use of the words "greatly" & "vastly" there. :wink:


An interesting article in Which http://www.which.co.uk/cars/driving/car-tyres/winter-tyres/ 
about winter tyres and the comment is made that: "At temperatures above 7C they (winter tyres) offer significantly poorer grip in dry conditions than the best summer tyres. This can mean a marked increase in braking distances and poorer handling and grip in bends.



Spacerunner said:


> As someone posted on MHF some time ago UK weather has hardly a fortnight's summer weather to justify fitting summer tyres. Whereas fitting winter tyres could be fully justified 10 months of the year.


I read a survey recently that stated that most driving in the UK is done at temperatures above 7C and that there are in fact relatively few days in the year when the average temperature is below 7C. As for motorhome driving, I suspect that very little driving is done when temperatures are at or below 7C.



Grath said:


> I am thinking of putting full winter tyres on it, so as to make it easier to visit our daughter who liver up a few hills. I am not bothered if they wear out quicker or if the summer stopping distance is a little longer. I will live with it!


Past tests have shown that the braking distance of winter tyres is at least 10% poorer than comparable summer tyres. On a dry road at 60mph that would result in an increase in average braking distance of about 20 feet which is over one car length. I suspect that that extra 20 feet could sadly be the difference between living and not living in some accidents.


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## Glandwr

I think that you are all barking up the wrong tree here with talk of the relative qualitiies of winter and summer tyres.

Looking at Javea's link there were three catogories of insurer

Those that wanted notication of fitting, those that didn't and those that did IF THEY WERE FITTED TO ALLOY WHEELS?

I think the clue is there.

Dick


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## Stanner

peribro said:


> than the best   summer tyres.


And EVERYBODY always uses the BEST summer tyres don't they? :roll:

Good winter tyres all year round are better than crap summer tyres anytime!

PS exactly which are the best summer tyres?


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## peribro

Stanner said:


> peribro said:
> 
> 
> 
> than the best   summer tyres.
> 
> 
> 
> And EVERYBODY always uses the BEST summer tyres don't they? :roll:
> 
> Good winter tyres all year round are better than crap summer tyres anytime!
> 
> PS exactly which are the best summer tyres?
Click to expand...

A useful comparison is between the same manufacturer's summer and winter tyres. For example, looking at Vredestein's range of summer Comtrac tyres they are nearly all rated at category B (using the EU's new A-G rating tables) for wet grip whereas the winter Comtrac tyres are all rated at category E. It is a similar comparison across all manufacturers that I have looked at.


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## Stanner

raynipper said:


> Agreed Grath.
> Both my Hobby and VW Golf have winter tyres fitted cos they were cheaper.!!!
> Both can gain traction on wet grass and even lose gravel where our ZX on regular summer tyres spins.
> 
> The Golf will happily do 130kph. for hours with no noticable noise or loss of control in Summer.
> 
> Ray.


Exactly, the problem is some people believe everything they read instead of relying on personal real life experience. :wink:


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## grizzlyj

Hi

Last year I couldn't get up a slightly inclined driveway in my front wheel drive hatch. Forwards, backwards, fast or slow traction control or not. Ford fit originals. 

This year it may as well still have been concrete under the tyres. No problem at all. Deep puddles are less noticeable with the deeper tread too. Snowflake tyres.

Is it better for my insurance to pay out or for me to have not actually entered your boot in the first place?! 8O 

I think I could drive all year on winter tyres in that car and never notice a lack of grip. I've tried braking as hard as possible on a good surface and couldn't get the abs to come on, which if they had less grip would be sure to happen if I reached their limit. Speedy cornering I also don't notice a difference.

I have driven on track days quite a few times, and to get to the limit there takes a lot of input (different car and tyres!), how many drive on the limit on the public roads? How many get the abs to fire up when even stopping quickly?

Most get nowhere near 7/10ths on the road, so if winter tyres give you 9/10ths all year and summer tyres give you 10/10ths when its above 7 deg C I don't think thats relevant unless you drive like a loon in a powerful light car on fat tyres.

My winter car tyres do seem to wear quite quickly though, and you're supposed to change them at 4?mm for full winter performance and some countries requirements. And the insurance company said good idea but not interested :?

The "three peaks in a snowflake" symbol means a different compound for colder weather and have performed to a certain standard. M+S only means a more open tread pattern which may or may not be better.


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## grizzlyj

Also the insurance aspect of less grip must revolve around the softer compound and 7degC.

Its only the snowflake tyres that are designed in this way, not M+S.

So M+S in the summer can't come into it?


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## trek

I put winter tyres on my car around November time and swap them back to summers around Easter

wouldn't be without them at this time of year especially beneficial in the rain on these wet motorways in my opinion ( aside from snow & ice of course)

Autocar report - how good are winter tyres


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## trek

winter tyre demo on indoor ski slope

dunlop


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## Glandwr

Those with sense change to xummer tyres anyway because winter tyres wear pretty quick in warm conditions.

Dick


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## trek

had this statement squirreled away from a couple of years ago

can't remember where I got it from

Insurance implications?
If you fit winter or all-season tyres in place of your standard 'summer' tyres then there should be no need to inform your insurer – even though the speed index might be lower than the standard tyre specified by the car maker. 
The lower speed index is still likely to exceed all national speed limits by a considerable margin – with the exception of some German autobahns – and is not checked as part of the passenger car MOT test. 
Fitting different wheels would not be considered a notifiable modification either provided they are not oversized. 
If you follow the standard European practice of keeping two sets of wheels, one fitted with winter tyres and one with summer tyres, then there will be no need to tell your insurer so long as the winter tyres are fitted to correct specification steel wheels or to alloy wheels of a similar specification to the car's original equipment.


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## Stanner

Glandwr said:


> Those with sense change to xummer tyres anyway because winter tyres wear pretty quick in warm conditions.
> 
> Dick


No they don't - anyway most motorhome tyres run out of life before they run out of tread.

I have had summer tyres that wear out faster than winter tyres.

NB - EXPERIENCE NOT HEARSAY!


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## 113016

Not thinking of the M/H, but our car which only does just over 2k per year.
Has anybody fitted Winter Tyres just on the front? Thinking of cost as the existing tyres have lots of tread as the car has done less then 7K


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## Pat-H

Grath said:


> Not thinking of the M/H, but our car which only does just over 2k per year.
> Has anybody fitted Winter Tyres just on the front? Thinking of cost as the existing tyres have lots of tread as the car has done less then 7K


The advice is to NOT mix winter and non winter tyres.
You risk the back end brakeing away as it will have less grip than the front.


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## 113016

Pat-H said:


> Grath said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not thinking of the M/H, but our car which only does just over 2k per year.
> Has anybody fitted Winter Tyres just on the front? Thinking of cost as the existing tyres have lots of tread as the car has done less then 7K
> 
> 
> 
> The advice is to NOT mix winter and non winter tyres.
> You risk the back end brakeing away as it will have less grip than the front.
Click to expand...

Thanks PatH, I realise that it is best not to mix and that the Winter Tyres would brake better and apart from the traction, that was the reason.
Another factor to think about, is that when a car is braking, some of the weight transfers to the front wheels which would make the front wheels be doing more braking than the rear. So would it really matter that much with winter tyres? I mean would having just winter tyres on the front be greatly detrimental or would the advantage outweigh the disadvantage. I think it would be better than none at all.
Cost comes into it and it could be change two or none.

Don't get me wrong, as an ex International Trucker, I do realise the importance of good tyres and I would never fit el cheapo.


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## Glandwr

Stanner said:


> Glandwr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those with sense change to xummer tyres anyway because winter tyres wear pretty quick in warm conditions.
> 
> Dick[/
> 
> Iquote]
> 
> No they don't - anyway most motorhome tyres run out of life before they run out of tread.
> 
> I have had summer tyres that wear out faster than winter tyres.
> 
> NB - EXPERIENCE NOT HEARSAY!
> 
> 
> 
> I can't speak from your experience Stanner. But I do know that winter tyres are made of softer rubber and softer rubber wears out faster in fact they harden the rubber in summer tyres specically to make them last longer
> 
> . As to your remarks about MHs you are right but were be talking exclusively of MHs?
> 
> Dick
Click to expand...


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## Stanner

Glandwr said:


> I can't speak from your experience Stanner. But I do know that winter tyres are made of softer rubber and softer rubber wears out faster in fact they harden the rubber in summer tyres specically to make them last longer
> 
> . As to your remarks about MHs you are right but were be talking exclusively of MHs?
> 
> Dick


No they aren't "softer" rubber, they are "different" rubber. What good are long lasting tyres if your car is buried under an Artic?

If a tyre isn't wearing it isn't gripping either. So I fail to see how winter tyres can wear out faster unless they are gripping better.

As said we have far more inclement weather that we ever have clement weather - so next time we have continuous dry weather with road temperatures consistently well over 10degrees C I'll take yours and Peribros advice and refit summer tyres until then I will rely on the superior "feel" and grip of winter tyres all year round. I'd rather change then a few miles earlier, than not need them any longer.

:wink:

Motorhomes make the case even better when I manage to get away and tour Spain and Morocco in high summer instead of France Germany and Benelux in Autumn Winter and Spring I might consider putting the Michelin Campings and brown trousers back on.


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## goldi

Afternoon all,
I have fitted toyo ho9 to the front (drive axle) I nt he event of getting caught in snow. If you are driving asports saloon at high speed in the winter then I might agree that you should fit them all round but this is amotorhome which is driven much more sedatly. As for the point of them wearing out quicker in my view its not that important. 


norm


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## pippin

I agree with you there - my (ordinary) tyres after >5 years have plenty of tread left but are showing signs of side-wall wear
so will need changing.


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## Zebedee

Stanner said:


> No they aren't "softer" rubber, they are "different" rubber.


"Mud and Snow, (or M+S, or M&S), is a designation applied rather arbitrarily by manufacturers for all-season and winter tires designed to provide improved performance under low temperature conditions, compared to summer tires. *The tread compound is usually softer than that used in tires for summer conditions, thus providing better grip on ice and snow, but wears more quickly at higher temperatures*."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire


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## grizzlyj

snipped


Stanner said:


> how winter tyres can wear out faster


Deeper tread blocks move about more, creating more heat. Too hot and they wear very quickly, as anyone watching a semi wet F1 race can testify to 

But anyhow, I'm surprised how quickly mine are wearing. 8mm of tread when new, 5mm at 10,000 miles (mostly in Scandinavia so driving slowly compared to here) and as I said some of the countries who specify winter tyres have a high minimum, Austria 4mm, others 3.

And "Portugal

It is prohibited to drive vehicles fitted with studded or winter tyres."

8O http://conti-central.co.uk/winter-tyres/winter-driving-laws-across-western-europe/


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## grizzlyj

Zebedee said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> No they aren't "softer" rubber, they are "different" rubber.
> 
> 
> 
> "Mud and Snow, (or M+S, or M&S), is a designation applied rather arbitrarily by manufacturers for all-season and winter tires designed to provide improved performance under low temperature conditions, compared to summer tires. *The tread compound is usually softer than that used in tires for summer conditions, thus providing better grip on ice and snow, but wears more quickly at higher temperatures*."
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire
Click to expand...

The arbitrarily bit is the trick though. M+S does only mean a more open tread nothing else. It may be a winter tyre it may not.

The three peaks in a snowflake can only be on a tyre if it performs to a minimum "winter" standard.

Tyres for wet and snow usually have more sipes. A M+S could be a big block tyre with a very open tread but no sipes at all making it good in mud but useless on slippy tarmac.

I did post a load of info the last time winter tyres got a good airing  Nobody read it though :twisted: :lol:

http://www.etyres.co.uk/glossary-tyre-terms?term=sipes

4x4 tyre pics just to give an idea on the difference on sipes at least


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## 113016

Zebedee said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> No they aren't "softer" rubber, they are "different" rubber.
> 
> 
> 
> "Mud and Snow, (or M+S, or M&S), is a designation applied rather arbitrarily by manufacturers for all-season and winter tires designed to provide improved performance under low temperature conditions, compared to summer tires. *The tread compound is usually softer than that used in tires for summer conditions, thus providing better grip on ice and snow, but wears more quickly at higher temperatures*."
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire
Click to expand...

Hi Zebedee, I put a couple of Michelin links on earlier today and it clearly states thet the M+S is not a full winter tyre
Check back my posts

here again

http://motorsport.michelin.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=169

http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/michelin-agilis-camping

http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/michelin-agilis-alpin


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## Zebedee

Hi Jason and Graham

Just Googled for my own interest because I always understood winter tyres to be made of a softer compound, as well as the obviously chunkier tread.

Still none the wiser - probably because I didn't read your earier post either! :roll: :lol: 

Cheers

Dave


P.S. Why are 2CVs so good in the snow, even when fitted with Michelin tyres which have barely any tread at all?


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## 113016

Zebedee said:


> Hi Jason and Graham
> Cheers
> Dave
> P.S. Why are 2CVs so good in the snow, even when fitted with Michelin tyres which have barely any tread at all?


Hi Dave, Probably because they are thin as tyres used to be on old cars. The tyre then cuts through the snow, instead of slipping on the top.


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## Zebedee

P.S. Just found >> this <<, which contains some interesting points.

But just to be perverse, ARE winters tyres made of a softer compound - given that they don't harden in the cold??

"Winter tyres are made from specially developed compound with more natural rubber so they don't harden when it's cold, which means increased grip on the road and greater safety."

Interesting semantics there! How do you define "softer"? :wink:

Dave


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## 113016

Zebedee said:


> P.S. Just found >> this <<, which contains some interesting points.
> 
> But just to be perverse, ARE winters tyres made of a softer compound - given that they don't harden in the cold??
> 
> "Winter tyres are made from specially developed compound with more natural rubber so they don't harden when it's cold, which means increased grip on the road and greater safety."
> 
> Interesting semantics there! How do you define "softer"? :wink:
> 
> Dave


Thanks Dave the link is interesting.
It states that Winter Tyres don't wear any quicker and that if you have not got room to store a spare set, keep Winter Tyres on all year.
Another interesting point is that the advantages of shorter stopping distances with winter tyres during the winter, outweighs the longer stopping distance with the same tyres during summer.


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## Stanner

Grath said:


> Zebedee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jason and Graham
> Cheers
> Dave
> P.S. Why are 2CVs so good in the snow, even when fitted with Michelin tyres which have barely any tread at all?
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Dave, Probably because they are thin as tyres used to be on old cars. The tyre then cuts through the snow, instead of slipping on the top.
Click to expand...

Exactly ever watched the Swedish Rally on Eurosport or whatever and seen the width of tyres fitted to 300BHP+ WRC cars?

195 or less and they certainly aren't 45 profile elastic bands either :wink:


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## pbell

On a previous car I had a set on snow/winter tyres on a spare set of steel wheels. The wheels and tyres were narrower than the wide summer tyres and alloy wheels and had a lower speed rating. Naturally I informed my insurers who were quite happy with the change (which was the official dealer fit at the time).

Nowadays winter tyres are available in many more standard sizes so on my current car I have snow/winter tyres fitted to the standard alloys and they are the same size, profile, speed and load rating as the summers. There's no way I'd even consider informing my insurers of this change.

As to effectiveness, I'd maintain that a standard front wheel drive car (preferably diesel for its ability to pull at low revs) with snow tyres is far more capable than a Chelsea tractor on over-wide summer tyres.
We have about 750m of fairly steep uphill unmade track to cover before we reach the road. In the present conditions our neighbour's Freelander is parked at the top of the track and he has to walk up and down. My Clio on snow tyres doesn't even break traction getting up..


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## 113016

I bet the CV has Cross ply as well :wink:


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## BrianJP

Just to ad more confusion to this thread .Have you noticed all the Tyre company ads recently for winter tyres because of the bad weather,perhaps this is all a marketing ploy to make us part with more money. I beleive that the difference between the grip in winter condtions between summer road tyres and winter tyres is marginal and most drivers would not notice the difference as they are both a compromise at the end of the day. Speaking as an old ex rally driver ,true off road tyres are a different animal alltogether and most of us would never want to drive very far on tarmac with them.

My MH has Conti Vanco Campers, the rears still have 9mm ,fronts now down to 5mm. These tyres are often criticised by the Michelin fans as inadequate in poor conditions. However 10days ago I arrived at Cocquelles off Eurotunnel where there was 50mm of untreated snow from the terminal. I was obviously very cautious however I could discern no particular loss of grip when driving with care.
I subsequently drove to my house here in southern Spain where the last 500metres are a fairly steep stone/mud track. Again the tyres seemed to perform well considering the amount of rain that has been falling since we arrived (up to 10cm in 1 day).

Food for thought ? I think you just need to get out there and see what grip you have before you spend any money on winter tyres.


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## Zebedee

Grath said:


> I bet the CV has Cross ply as well :wink:


Don't think so, but I'll check.

P.S. No. They are Michelin X Radials.


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## 113016

Zebedee said:


> Grath said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bet the CV has Cross ply as well :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't think so, but I'll check.
> 
> P.S. No. They are Michelin X Radials.
Click to expand...

Thanks Dave, I have never looked at them but thought they may have been as they always seem to sit up high. Shows looks can fool


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## Zebedee

Grath said:


> Thanks Dave, I have never looked at them but thought they may have been as they always seem to sit up high. Shows looks can fool


That's the suspension Graham, designed to ride with bum in the air. :wink: Very sophisticated for something designed before the war. Easily adjustable by winding a tie rod at each corner.

Designed to go across ploughed French fields - literally, and they will!

Off topic by a mile, but if you are interested >> Cliquez ici <

Dave


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## javea

BrianJP said:


> . I beleive that the difference between the grip in winter condtions between summer road tyres and winter tyres is marginal and most drivers would not notice the difference as they are both a compromise at the end of the day.
> 
> .


See my test here Brian - http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-1362858.html#1362858

Proves the point conclusively for me.

Mike


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## Annsman

Interesting discussion about the relative merits of different tyres etc, but has anyone got any actual living proof that any insurance company anywhere, in the UK, has ever refused a claim because of the wrong tyres, whatever the season? 

This seems to be another thread where we, as motorhome owners, are getting ourselves into a tizz about something that has very little, if any impact on anyone. E.G. LPG filling in France, Tolls in France, etc.

I have found something of interest though re, tyres in Germany for my possible trip to Greece next Feb via that country. So thanks for that!


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## BrianJP

javea said:


> BrianJP said:
> 
> 
> 
> . I beleive that the difference between the grip in winter condtions between summer road tyres and winter tyres is marginal and most drivers would not notice the difference as they are both a compromise at the end of the day.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> See my test here Brian - http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-1362858.html#1362858
> 
> Proves the point conclusively for me.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...

Sorry but I am not sure it does.
At the end of the day it just comes down to how you drive in bad weather. You are apparently old enough to remember as I am that in bad weather you just took more care. There were no winter tyres as are available now. Are we really suggesting that all drivers of cars and on here Motorhomes buy a separate set of wheels and tyres for winter use. After all in the UK the bad weather might all end next week !
Expert drivers can drive safely on snow and ice with "bald tyres" believe me I have seen it done.

Personally I just carry a set of chains just in case.


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## 113016

Did you see the link that Trek put on

http://www.dunlop.eu/dunlop_uk/I_want_new_tyres/winter_tyres/tyresinaction.jsp


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## BrianJP

Grath said:


> Did you see the link that Trek put on
> 
> http://www.dunlop.eu/dunlop_uk/I_want_new_tyres/winter_tyres/tyresinaction.jsp


Ah ! but they would say all that wouldn't they?

They want to sell more tyres


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## Stanner

Grath said:


> I bet the CV has Cross ply as well :wink:


The 2CV was one of the first cars to be fitted with radials as standard - the original Michelin X which was standard fitting long after they were not even available for any other car.

125/80 - 15 is plenty wide enough :wink:


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## 113016

BrianJP said:


> Grath said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you see the link that Trek put on
> 
> http://www.dunlop.eu/dunlop_uk/I_want_new_tyres/winter_tyres/tyresinaction.jsp
> 
> 
> 
> Ah ! but they would say all that wouldn't they?
> 
> They want to sell more tyres
Click to expand...

I understand where you are coming from, but we have to remain open minded.
It did look good, but I wondered if the driver of the first car had orders, but I doubt it could have done what the second car did.
The other thing is, could it have been 4 wheel drive :?: 
But if it was genuine it does prove the point


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## teemyob

*Winters*

See my post Here

I have used them almost always since I passed my test aged 17.

I have written a great deal on here about them. Do not think I need to add more...

Maybe....

I told you so! 8)


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## peribro

Stanner said:


> Exactly, the problem is some people believe everything they read instead of relying on personal real life experience. :wink:


I'm obviously fortunate that my personal real life experience of running winter tyres on the people carrier between November and March and M&S tyres on the motorhome year round has led me to conclude the same as the experts from the motoring organisations, the motoring press and the tyre companies - that is that winter tyres are appropriate for the winter but not year round.


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## trek

BrianJP said:


> Ah ! but they would say all that wouldn't they?
> 
> They want to sell more tyres


well having used them in all weathers I can assure you that I wouldn't want to drive in the snow and ice without them

neither do I consider myself a poor driver in fact my car which I sold a year a ago with over 108,000 miles on clock has just had its first set of front brake pads fitted at 122,000 which suggests I read the road and use the engine to brake

Ok so you have snow chains , you get to a hill can't get up it , put your chains on & off you go no problems except cold hands & wet knees

what if you were actually coming down the same hill instead of struggling going up ? winter tyres allow you to stop & steer going down hill - try braking with out winters on & you may just slide down out of control.

these last few days I have been driving around with the winters on & amazed at how much safer they are. now lets be honest they don't stick like limpets to the road - they will still spin or slide if you push them but only a little bit and very quickly regain control


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## Stanner

peribro said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, the problem is some people believe everything they read instead of relying on personal real life experience. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm obviously fortunate that my personal real life experience of running winter tyres on the people carrier between November and March and M&S tyres on the motorhome year round has led me to conclude the same as the experts from the motoring organisations, the motoring press and the tyre companies - that is that winter tyres are appropriate for the winter but not year round.
Click to expand...

You clearly have never had a car fitted with the same Bridgestone, Goodyear, Firestone or Michelin summer tyres that I have had the misfortune to drive on.

I naively thought they were some of the best makes.
If they are/were than they aren't a patch on Vredestein Quatracs.


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## grizzlyj

Chains on anything make a big difference


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## peribro

Stanner said:


> You clearly have never had a car fitted with the same Bridgestone, Goodyear, Firestone or Michelin summer tyres that I have had the misfortune to drive on.
> I naively thought they were some of the best makes.
> If they are/were than they aren't a patch on Vredestein Quatracs.


I've obviously been lucky as I cannot recall having had any of those makes fitted - at least in recent years. I've generally had Pirelli P Zeros fitted to my car although I've just had a pair of Dunlop SP Sports fitted to the fronts in place of the Pirellis. On the people carrier I am using Hankooks for the summer tyres which seem to be a reasonable mid-range tyre.


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## moonbeam32

*Winter Tyres*

Strange the way some peoples minds work, or should I say worrying......
Why would an insurance company want to charge you more money or insist you tell them if your are using legal tyres? We have an A3 which is always on winter tyres from November to March, and our camper has Michelin M & S all year round. Winter tyres are fantastic. You rarely need chains. When all the other cars are trying to get up a slight incline on a snowy or icy road you just drive straight up with no wheel spin. They do not have less grip on dry roads. The only downside is that they wear out quicker. The reason being is modern tyres have a low rubber content, last a long time, but get very hard when temperatures drop below freezing. Winter tyres have a high rubber content, remain soft and pliable when the temperature drops, but wear quicker on dry warm roads.
If you live in Germany, Austria etc, it is the law that you have Winter tyres fitted between the 1st of October and the 31st of March. If you don't, your insurance is invalid and you get a massive fine and the vehicle impounded by the authorities.
Michelin M & S tyres are classed as "All season tyres" and are accepted by the authorities in Germany etc. as Winter tyres. However, as someone below as pointed out, in my view also they are not quite as good as a full Winter tyre.
Last week we drove our Camper back from Austria in very poor conditions, with hard packed snow on both lanes of the autobahn in Austria and Germany. The first day we covered around 250 miles in these conditions, travelling at about 50 mph in blizzard conditions. We were being overtaken by artics and other trucks, and also by the odd Audi and BMW travelling at around 80 to 100 mph! We were heading for Polch near Koblenz that first day from Ischgl, and our Tom Tom live services showed not a single accident or hold up on the whole route.
Imagine that if we were in the UK. Probably wouldn't have managed 5 miles.

Moonbeam


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## goldi

Afternoon folks,


AsI understand it winter tyres do not become effective as winter tyres un til the temperature falls below 7degrees.



norm


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## Stanner

goldi said:


> Afternoon folks,
> 
> AsI understand it winter tyres do not become effective as winter tyres un til the temperature falls below 7degrees.
> 
> norm


Well as it isn't "winter" until it gets cold I guess you are right.

But I think you are thinking back to front. 
Summer tyres stop being effective tyres i.e. stop gripping, when it get cold.

Winter tyres grip all the time i.e. they don't stop gripping when it gets cold.

Winter tyres don't suddenly "start to work" at a certain road temperature, they just continue to work better.


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## BrianJP

I always went for top brand tyres in the belief that they were the best choice,but when I had new tyres put on my elderly Mondeo last year I went for a budget brand and had Barum Brauvaris fitted. The ride and grip are amazing for the money and in recent heavy snow here in Yorks they provided adequate grip and control combined with ABS and traction control .Yes perhaps I would have more grip with winter tyres but we only have a relatively short period of bad weather even here and many winter tyres are "c**p" on roads in good weather, tramlining all over the place. Incidently Barum ( from the Czech republic) is owned by Continental tyres and is ironically where their Vanco Camper tyres are made.


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## raynipper

The best for snow..............................!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/v/XwpKjEa4LYY&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version

Ray.


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## pippin

I want some!


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## raynipper

pippin said:


> I want some!


Me too Pippin.
But we would need a hulking 4X4 as well.

Ray.


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