# Re: Recent thread on Statins . . . .



## Zebedee

*Re: Recent thread on Statins . . . .*

Re: This thread - http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-1489205.html#1489205 I hope this might help someone. 

I won't bore you with the detail, but my knees are more decorative than useful these days, so I went to the doctor (again!) yesterday.

I asked if statins (specifically Simvastatin) might be exacerbating the muscle pain, and he said at once that it was quite possible since it's a common side effect.

While we were at it I asked him to review all the (5) tablets on my repeat prescription, since my previous doctor (now retired) seemed to hand them out like Smarties. (I was a bit more subtle than that! :roll: )

He checked my record and discussed the pro's and con's of each drug, and as a result I am now taking only one - Olmetec for raised blood pressure. No more Simvastatin, so that's one less uncertainty to worry about with the dodgy knees.

He admitted that drugs are sometimes prescribed too readily, and once on the prescription they may not be reviewed unless the patient asks, even though the condition for which they were prescribed may no longer apply.

Hope this is useful.

Dave


----------



## Penquin

Hi Zeb, 

I also had severe cramps in my legs at night, in the UK I was given quinine which seemed to work.... but no-one looked at Simvastatin which I had been taking for about 8 years....

Last Christmas the cramps got so severe that my daughter (a GP) advised to stop taking the Simvastatin for a month, the cramps stopped within 3 days (or nights).

Back in France the GP equivalent agreed and switched me to a different statin, no problems now and he says there are lots of others available.

The key point as you said is to get your medication reviewed annually as to any possible side effects - the patient information sheet in every packet lists the known ones for each medication, but is not so good at interactions between different medications. That is when a pharmacist may well be able to give excellent advice......

Dave


----------



## autostratus

*Re: Recent thread on Statins . . . .*



Zebedee said:


> Re: This thread - http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-1489205.html#1489205 I hope this might help someone.
> 
> I won't bore you with the detail, but my knees are more decorative than useful these days, so I went to the doctor (again!) yesterday.
> 
> I asked if statins (specifically Simvastatin) might be exacerbating the muscle pain, and he said at once that it was quite possible since it's a common side effect.
> 
> While we were at it I asked him to review all the (5) tablets on my repeat prescription, since my previous doctor (now retired) seemed to hand them out like Smarties. (I was a bit more subtle than that! :roll: )
> 
> He checked my record and discussed the pro's and con's of each drug, and as a result I am now taking only one - Olmetec for raised blood pressure. No more Simvastatin, so that's one less uncertainty to worry about with the dodgy knees.
> 
> He admitted that drugs are sometimes prescribed too readily, and once on the prescription they may not be reviewed unless the patient asks, even though the condition for which they were prescribed may no longer apply.
> 
> Hope this is useful.
> 
> Dave


Simvastatin is the cheapest and the one the GP usually prescribes first.

I was on Simvastatin and when I complained of the thigh muscle pains my GP swapped it to a Atorvastatin which had no effect on the pains I had.
She then swapped to a non statin which was supposed to do the same job. There was no improvement.

The low point was we were going to France for a month and I had to put a rope on a plastic stool so I could use it to climb into the MH and pull it up after me.

After we got to France I stopped taking the medication and by the end of the month the pains had reduced considerably although it was some months before they went completely.
I never went back on the statins and take a tomato extract capsule each morning.
I have regular blood tests and my cholesterol level is fine.
The worst part is I've never recovered the from the muscle damage the statins did to me. I can only walk very short distances (50 - 70m) and have ended up with a disabled badge. 

Thanks to statins and my GP!


----------



## Easyriders

Penquin said:


> Hi Zeb,
> 
> I also had severe cramps in my legs at night, in the UK I was given quinine which seemed to work.... but no-one looked at Simvastatin which I had been taking for about 8 years....
> 
> Last Christmas the cramps got so severe that my daughter (a GP) advised to stop taking the Simvastatin for a month, the cramps stopped within 3 days (or nights).
> 
> Back in France the GP equivalent agreed and switched me to a different statin, no problems now and he says there are lots of others available.
> 
> The key point as you said is to get your medication reviewed annually as to any possible side effects - the patient information sheet in every packet lists the known ones for each medication, but is not so good at interactions between different medications. That is when a pharmacist may well be able to give excellent advice......
> 
> Dave


Dave, when statins nearly killed John a few years ago, the GP said that they all worked the same way, so if you get side effects with one, you should avoid them all. Perhaps things have changed, but take care, and read the leaflet to check on side effects. All the best, Linda


----------



## Zebedee

*Re: Recent thread on Statins . . . .*



autostratus said:


> The worst part is I've never recovered the from the muscle damage the statins did to me. I can only walk very short distances (50 - 70m) and have ended up with a disabled badge.
> Thanks to statins and my GP!


That's the part which worries me Gillian! 8O

Fortunately I'm still OK once I'm vertical, and managed to shift 6 tons of rubble and soil last week to fill in the (leaking) garden pond, albeit rather slowly. I'm pretty fit for 70, apart from a dodgy back which I can live with, but getting up and down is becoming very difficult.

I was out with the dog the other day and I fell in a ditch (defective eyesight as well! :lol: ) I had a heck of a job to get out without something to lean on to haul myself up with my arms.

Something I never thought of when I was younger - loss of mobility in an otherwise fit person is pretty devastating, and can wreck the quality of life very thoroughly!! How long before I have to carry a walking stick in case I end up in another hidden ditch?

Dave :roll:


----------



## Penquin

As someone with mobility problems due to having no feeling in my feet and yet severe pain if I walk on them for more than 100m, the loss of mobility does have a fundamental deterioration on the quality of life I can assure you.......   

It would be nice to once again go for a walk through the woods, but sadly that sort of ramble is impossible when there is severe pain after 100m......  

Sadly, a walking stick would not help me, but we are seriously considering a mobility scooter which I currently use in e.g. the major shopping centre in Southampton, but carrying such a thing in the MH would be impossible for us, so the bike has to suffice there - and is good since there is not the same problem with my feet as walking - but not so good going through John Lewis or M&S..... :lol: 

Dave


----------



## bulawayolass

Dave a friend has a scooter that dismantels into small parts fits in a car boot is that type any use?

Regards statins if in the 3mths l have given myself my chol. doesn't come down my diabetic nurse agreed just go on them a short time to knock chol down then off them. No need for long term.


----------



## Matchlock

Like you Penquin my feet go numb when walking then gets so painful I have to stop.
last year I started getting cramp in my calves after walking a short distance then I have to stop for a short time until the pain goes.

Early this year I had a MRI scan which revealed poor circulation in my legs, the consultant prescribed Praxilene which helps a lot.

3 years ago on visiting the Doc my blood pressure was so high, that she tried 3 different BP monitors, arm, wrist and the old pump type but they all gave the same results, something like 210/100.
I was prescribed Lisinopril which seem to have done the job although sometimes my pressure seems too low.
At the same time she also prescribed aspirin and Simvastatin, seemed OK for about a year until I started to get pains in my thighs and knee's and aching legs in bed.
I stopped taking all the tablets for just over 2 weeks and the pains subsided, I did monitor my BP during that time.
Then started taking the BP tabs for a week without any problem so started the statins again and the pains came back, the Statins are now somewhere in the back of the cabinet.

Barry


----------



## 747

bulawayolass said:


> Dave a friend has a scooter that dismantels into small parts fits in a car boot is that type any use?
> 
> Regards statins if in the 3mths l have given myself my chol. doesn't come down my diabetic nurse agreed just go on them a short time to knock chol down then off them. No need for long term.


That is what I am doing now. I found a big difference when I came off them earlier this year. My greedy GP will not give me any other Statin (otherwise he might not be able to change his Mercedes every year). :roll:

Zeb, cut yourself a nice branch to use as a walking stick. It also doubles as a flicker stick for dog poo. The Park Wardens where I live told us that flicking it into the undergrowth is OK. Of course there are times when a pick up is better, so we still carry plenty of bags.


----------



## Zebedee

747 said:


> Zeb, cut yourself a nice branch to use as a walking stick. It also doubles as a flicker stick for dog poo. The Park Wardens where I live told us that flicking it into the undergrowth is OK. Of course there are times when a pick up is better, so we still carry plenty of bags.


How did you guess 747? :roll: I have made several "rustic" walking sticks for friends and have kept a couple for myself. Stronger and more comfortable than many of the commercial type.

You do need a bit of flicking practice though, for when the dog has a touch of the squits. If your wrist movement is less than perfectly timed you can get a bit of backlash!!!!! :roll:

As for the bags - one fell on the floor in the surgery yesterday as I pulled out my hankie! 

Keep taking the tablets. :wink:

Dave


----------



## Mike48

*Re: Recent thread on Statins . . . .*



Zebedee said:


> Re: This thread - http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-1489205.html#1489205 I hope this might help someone.
> 
> I won't bore you with the detail, but my knees are more decorative than useful these days, so I went to the doctor (again!) yesterday.
> 
> I asked if statins (specifically Simvastatin) might be exacerbating the muscle pain, and he said at once that it was quite possible since it's a common side effect.
> 
> While we were at it I asked him to review all the (5) tablets on my repeat prescription, since my previous doctor (now retired) seemed to hand them out like Smarties. (I was a bit more subtle than that! :roll: )
> 
> He checked my record and discussed the pro's and con's of each drug, and as a result I am now taking only one - Olmetec for raised blood pressure. No more Simvastatin, so that's one less uncertainty to worry about with the dodgy knees.
> 
> He admitted that drugs are sometimes prescribed too readily, and once on the prescription they may not be reviewed unless the patient asks, even though the condition for which they were prescribed may no longer apply.
> 
> Hope this is useful.
> 
> Dave


This is potentially very useful so would be interested to know if the pain in your knees disappears. My wife is a knee sufferer and has been on Simvastatin for 10 years.


----------



## Zebedee

*Re: Recent thread on Statins . . . .*



Mike48 said:


> This is potentially very useful so would be interested to know if the pain in your knees disappears. My wife is a knee sufferer and has been on Simvastatin for 10 years.


I won't be able to help much I'm afraid Mike.

I'm going to see an osteopath next week and have just started taking Glucosamine and Omega 3 tablets, so I won't be able to say with certainty which "treatment" gives the benefit - assuming the knees do indeed improve. I won't know if it's due to stopping the simvastatin, or one/both of the new influences.

I'm very sceptical about some alternative medicines (snake-oil homeopathy for example) but willing to give almost anything a try.

Dave


----------



## StephandJohn

It is difficult to know what to do when the GP offers a drug as a treatment because we all know now that Pharmaceutical companies withhold bad clinical trial results and only release the good ones. I'm very very sceptical about everything as Ik now a few people who were prescribed tranquilisers and then left on them for years. They had terrible withdrawal symptoms when they tried to come off them.


----------



## Penquin

Matchlock said:


> ..... my feet go numb when walking then gets so painful I have to stop.
> last year I started getting cramp in my calves after walking a short distance then I have to stop for a .
> Then started taking the BP tabs for a week without any problem so started the statins again and the pains came back, the Statins are now somewhere in the back of the cabinet.
> 
> Barry


There are a lot of different statins available - some have more side effects than others, some are cheaper than others.... Simvastatin I believe wins on both counts.....

Go back to the GP and try a different one, but you have to give it at least a month before starting another and then only if your cholesterol levels require it......

BP is very important - high is not good news so that needs to be carefully monitored BUT the machines for it do vary and are very difficult to standardise....... (that was the one piece of gizmology on our ambulance that could not be checked annually as the only way is to use it and then compare it others of known accuracy...... and that is the report from the Medical Electronics Department that does ALL the hospital machines......)

So go back and use up a little bit of your NI payments by making your Doctor earn it...... "you know it makes sense" :lol:

Dave


----------



## wakk44

I started taking simvastatin 3 years ago.I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes and blood tests revealed my cholesterol level was marginally high.At that time my GP convinced me that it was an easy and effective way to reduce cholesterol levels.

After a couple of months I began to feel extremely weak and tired all the time.Another visit to the GP and a different statin was prescribed- atorvastatin.This made no difference and eventually I stopped taking statins altogether and I now feel a lot better. 

I believe that simvastatin is the first one a GP will prescribe as they are the cheapest,I don't think a doctor will tell you about possible downsides in case of imagined side effects,I certainly didn't imagine mine,I felt pretty rough.

It is well documented about the possible side effects of taking statins and I think anyone starting to take them should be fully aware of this.


----------



## raynipper

I have this vision of you Dave on your back in a ditch like a turtle......................... 

Ray. 8O


----------



## bulawayolass

This is quite an interesting article. i know it says what has often been said but in a good layout and why. Also he doesn't like statins so l like him

Heart Disease and Real Causes


----------



## Zebedee

raynipper said:


> I have this vision of you Dave on your back in a ditch like a turtle.........................
> Ray. 8O


Not too far from reality Ray, but turtles can carry it off with more panache! :roll:

Joking aside, it's quite a worry. There are so many occasions when you need to get down on your knees that it becomes very restricting when you can't.

Like checking the rat trap in the floor cavity on the landing! Little sh1tes have got in again, as they do most years at this time. Daren't lay poison or the pong is throat-gripping for months afterwards as they slowly decay where you can't get at them.

(How about that for drifting off topic!! :lol: :lol: )

Dave


----------



## bulawayolass

Impressive... turtles to rats :?


----------



## Easyriders

bulawayolass said:


> This is quite an interesting article. i know it says what has often been said but in a good layout and why. Also he doesn't like statins so l like him
> 
> Heart Disease and Real Causes


Thanks for the link, hope more people read it! This doctor prescribes the sort of diet John and I have eaten for years. It does help that I can cook!


----------



## bulawayolass

This is from my favourite medical forum. Due to diabetes and cholesterol being a hot topic and me on a big learning curve. Well worth a read explains cholesterol and tests. I have put the diabetes forum up on other posts but would really recommended it for info. Just go onto the low carb forum where most of the cholesterol details are, or do a search.

Cholesterol Explained


----------



## patp

Just found this thread.
Chris had a heart attack last April. They inserted a stent into his blocked artery. After the op they told us that his arteries were quite clear of cholesterol for a man of his age (66). They still, however, prescribed statins (atoravastin)!

The whole village was gobsmacked to hear of his heart attack. We walk the dog for miles every day and he is never still in between. We have a smallholding that needs constant maintenance jobs etc, an old cottage to maintain and he has a part time job cutting the grass at some large fishing lakes nearby (ride-on mower though!). 
He just was not a prime candidate. He was a little overweight due to his fondness for biscuits and chocolate, but lost 2 stone when he contracted pneumonia shortly after the heart attack. His weight is now stable and he feels really fit and well.

My question is - given that his arteries looked so good should he be on statins? We ate reasonably healthily before his heart attack and are even more careful now.

There was a tv programme on this very subject recently and the doctor who presented it came down on the side of taking statins but it was a close run thing.


----------



## bulawayolass

PatP read the link in the thread l put up there above yours. And rare you will find any nhs person step outside it they have pack mentality and dont like to be seen to be different... god forbid and on tv of all things. Not to mention all the money drugs companys make out of the crud that is pushed,

Below is the whole forum as l said elsewhere l am on the low carb high fat diet. cream in coffee, bacon, lots eggs, chocolate (low carb dark chocolate) full fat yogurt. I try to have around 20-30 gram of carbs a day and 1gram/kg of my bodyweight protein, fat l dont count.

Cholesterol may go up at the start of the diet as your body adjusts, you may also have a few days of headaches, but then cholestrol goes down and body adjusts.
Sweden is the only health service that recommends this diet.

Your body doesn't store the fat it uses it for energy, with "normal" high carbs it uses carbs for energy and stores fat . I also eat clean so no processed food which is the big problem with cholestrol.

Low Carb High Fat 

Yes it is the diabetes forum but also known as the Atkins diet and open to all. Weight loss is amazing as well. I would say though it should be a lifestyle not a diet.

l also put a different post on other page of this thread about a heart surgeon and statins


----------



## StephandJohn

I've had personal experience of the extreme damage that can be done to patients by the way drug companies withhold adverse trial data. I'm very suspicious of all drugs now. 
Unfortunately they do this with the collusion of the government (all governments for the last 50 years not just this one), Department of Health, the MHRA (who are supposed to regulate medication and don't).
This new report has just come out
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jan/03/drug-firms-information-clinical-trials.
Sorry o sound like a conspiracy theorist but I do have the proof if anyone wants it.


----------



## Mike48

StephandJohn said:


> I've had personal experience of the extreme damage that can be done to patients by the way drug companies withhold adverse trial data. I'm very suspicious of all drugs now.
> Unfortunately they do this with the collusion of the government (all governments for the last 50 years not just this one), Department of Health, the MHRA (who are supposed to regulate medication and don't).
> This new report has just come out
> http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jan/03/drug-firms-information-clinical-trials.
> Sorry o sound like a conspiracy theorist but I do have the proof if anyone wants it.


Without reading this thread in its entirety I am doubtful about the conspiracy point as these drugs are used widely throughout the World. Surely not every country has been duped?

I'm a regular visitor to the States and in their daily phone ins Medical Practitioners always advise people over 50 to take them.

I've been taking statins for 15 years as has my wife with no issues.


----------



## 747

Mike48 said:


> StephandJohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've had personal experience of the extreme damage that can be done to patients by the way drug companies withhold adverse trial data. I'm very suspicious of all drugs now.
> Unfortunately they do this with the collusion of the government (all governments for the last 50 years not just this one), Department of Health, the MHRA (who are supposed to regulate medication and don't).
> This new report has just come out
> http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jan/03/drug-firms-information-clinical-trials.
> Sorry o sound like a conspiracy theorist but I do have the proof if anyone wants it.
> 
> 
> 
> Without reading this thread in its entirety I am doubtful about the conspiracy point as these drugs are used widely throughout the World. Surely not every country has been duped?
> 
> I'm a regular visitor to the States and in their daily phone ins Medical Practitioners always advise people over 50 to take them.
> 
> I've been taking statins for 15 years as has my wife with no issues.
Click to expand...

Lucky you.

Now read the entire thread and search for the other big one on Simvastatin.


----------



## Mike48

747 said:


> Mike48 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StephandJohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've had personal experience of the extreme damage that can be done to patients by the way drug companies withhold adverse trial data. I'm very suspicious of all drugs now.
> Unfortunately they do this with the collusion of the government (all governments for the last 50 years not just this one), Department of Health, the MHRA (who are supposed to regulate medication and don't).
> This new report has just come out
> http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jan/03/drug-firms-information-clinical-trials.
> Sorry o sound like a conspiracy theorist but I do have the proof if anyone wants it.
> 
> 
> 
> Without reading this thread in its entirety I am doubtful about the conspiracy point as these drugs are used widely throughout the World. Surely not every country has been duped?
> 
> I'm a regular visitor to the States and in their daily phone ins Medical Practitioners always advise people over 50 to take them.
> 
> I've been taking statins for 15 years as has my wife with no issues.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lucky you.
> 
> Now read the entire thread and search for the other big one on Simvastatin.
Click to expand...

So a few people on a motorhome messageboard know best.


----------



## StephandJohn

I'm not talking about statins particularly but I do know about antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications. Clinical trials withheld all over the world. The person I know who is campaigning about this has emails from all over the world from people damaged by them.
I've worked in the health service for years and no-one could be more disappointed and upset by this knowledge than I am. I've reluctantly had to accept it.
www.benzo.org tells the story.


----------



## rayc

Mike48 said:


> 747 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike48 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StephandJohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've had personal experience of the extreme damage that can be done to patients by the way drug companies withhold adverse trial data. I'm very suspicious of all drugs now.
> Unfortunately they do this with the collusion of the government (all governments for the last 50 years not just this one), Department of Health, the MHRA (who are supposed to regulate medication and don't).
> This new report has just come out
> http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jan/03/drug-firms-information-clinical-trials.
> Sorry o sound like a conspiracy theorist but I do have the proof if anyone wants it.
> 
> 
> 
> Without reading this thread in its entirety I am doubtful about the conspiracy point as these drugs are used widely throughout the World. Surely not every country has been duped?
> 
> I'm a regular visitor to the States and in their daily phone ins Medical Practitioners always advise people over 50 to take them.
> 
> I've been taking statins for 15 years as has my wife with no issues.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lucky you.
> 
> Now read the entire thread and search for the other big one on Simvastatin.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So a few people on a motorhome messageboard know best.
Click to expand...

Perhaps not but the record of the health services in prescribing drugs is not always something to boast about viz Thalidomide.
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/broughttolife/themes/controversies/thalidomide.aspx

How do you know what the long term effects of taking Statins are likely to be?


----------



## bulawayolass

Mike should you not be asking yourself why you are still on them after 15 years? 
Even if l were to go on them (no intention) my diabetic nurse said.. "you only need to go on them till your cholesterol drops then come off. Once off diet and exercise will keep it off."

I think you better start asking yourself some questions instead of blindly following your dr.

As to sneering that a few people here knowing better go read the diabetic forum. Everyone on the high fat low carb diet has gone from high to low cholesterol are not on statins never in the majority of cases have been, and the drs refuse to see what is going on. 
And most diabetics from what l can see are told we HAVE to go on statins. It isn't just on that one section you will see it but generally more posts on the subject there. 

If you feel the need to believe every dr in creation that is your choice but the majority of us have a deep disbelief in them, question everything and look for a better way. Don't get me going on tranquillisers / anti depressants etc.....


----------



## autostratus

Mike48 said:


> So a few people on a motorhome messageboard know best.


No we don't and have never professed to.

As someone who was prescribed statins and suffered from excruciating thigh muscle pain over a considerable period I surely am allowed to give the benefit of my experience to others.

After stopping the medication the muscle agony gradually faded away but long term I can only walk very short distances due to the damage the statins have done.

My quality of life has suffered considerably and as I said to someone only yesterday my motorhome touring days are over. Fortunately I can still drive without a problem.

So you tell me.
Should I tell people of my problems and let them make up their own mind or simply keep quiet and perhaps let people suffer until they reach a situation similar to mine when its too late to reverse the effects?


----------



## Zebedee

Mike48 said:


> I've been taking statins for 15 years as has my wife with no issues.


So what you are saying Mike, is that a clinical trial using two subjects is valid for the rest of humanity???

I'm afraid the statistical significance of your experience is precisely zero when applied to anyone else. You and your wife haven't suffered any ill effects (_as far as you are aware_) but that is absolutely no indication of how someone will react to the same drugs.

Dave


----------



## rayc

Big money or what? 
"The guidelines announced in November by the American College of Cardiology and the American Heart Association advise that people with 7.5% or higher risk for heart attack be prescribed statins as against the existing guideline of a 20% or higher risk rate. This is expected to double statin usage in the US from the existing 36 million."

You have to wonder when 72 million people will be taking them. This must be a large percentage of the over 50's. Still good business for the Indian drug companies. Indian produced Cholesterol-reducing drugs worth nearly $15 billion were sold in the US in the year to September 2013. Those doctors on the American radio phone ins are possibly getting a cut from that.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...lp-Indian-drug-firms/articleshow/28004412.cms


----------



## Mike48

I'll be leaving MHF in the next couple of days after 8 years so I won't be responding after today so I'll leave my final comments to this.

Questions such as how do you know the long term problems of taking statins are no more valid than how do you know the problems that might have occurred had you not taken them. I'm Taking them full stop.

I have no pain issues and my cholestorol has dropped to 4.0. On one occasion I had to stop taking them due to incompatibility with another medication and my cholestorol rocketed back up.

Don't mention diet. I don't smoke, don't drink and I've been a vegetarian for most of my life. I'm a fun night out!

I'm not overweight either although my blood pressure is slightly up - 130 over 79 with a heart rate of 62. Statins are the only medication I take other than Zantac just recently for acid reflux. Generally I'm well with no ill effects from statins. Bully for me. But that's not the point. 

My wife does have knee pain but statins have been eliminated after seeing X Rays and an Orthapaedic consultant. Does that mean we should ignore that advice?

You can go onto forums and find find people taking a stance about anything. What about who killed Diana or Lee Harvey Oswald was innocent? You can always find a reason to blame something for anything. I'm not saying statins are blameless but they are in such widespread use I'm doubtful whether some statistically insignificant cases can be the cause for widespread concern.


----------



## 747

After a lifetime working in Medium and Heavy Industry my body is quite worn out. Worn spinal vertebrae, hardly any discs to speak of, worn joints all over. I depend on exercise to keep fit otherwise I suffer with aches and pains. I had plenty of them until I read about the adverse of Simvastatin (note: not ALL statins). I found a great difference when I stopped the statins. Yes my Cholesterol went up, to a figure that is said to be bad. 5 years ago, that same level was perfectly acceptable to the Medical profession. I particularly made that point for Mike who sees us as panic merchants and fools and medics are wonderful intelligent people that are never wrong. BTW, have you ever noticed all the freebies from Drug Companies in GP Surgeries. :roll: 

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, whether it is right or wrong.

Goodbye Mike.


----------



## Zebedee

Mike48 said:


> I'm Taking them full stop.


Amen to that . . . the full stop that is! :roll:

Sorry you are leaving Mike, but I can't quite understand why you are getting warm under the collar because others disagree with you, and choose *not *to take statins??

And as for sneering that "they know best" - it sounds very much as though it's *you *who knows best.

The truth is either that nobody really knows, or if any of "them" do know they are not telling us. Could it be that several billion dollars per year is influencing their veracity!!!! 8O

Dave


----------



## StephandJohn

I find these discussions difficult because all the evidence is out there for anyone to see, and more is coming out daily, about the prescribing of unnecessary and dangerous medicines. I could direct you to such a lot of the literature, reports, enquiries, court cases against pharma companies. BUT we all need healthcare at sometime and I don't want to frighten anyone on this forum who does.
I do think though that we deserve to know everything about a drug before we take it. Unfortunately the medical profession aren't told the truth by the Deprt of Health and the pharma companies and they don't have ANY pharmacology training so they don't have enough knowledge to prescribe safely.
A government report out today http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health lifts the lid yet again on the non-disclosure of adverse clinical trials.


----------



## Zebedee

*Re: Recent thread on Statins . . . .*



Mike48 said:


> This is potentially very useful so would be interested to know if the pain in your knees disappears. My wife is a knee sufferer and has been on Simvastatin for 10 years.


I can report back in part at least Mike.

I've been off the statins now for nearly a month and the pain has reduced. It hasn't gone completely but I have since discovered that my kneecaps have seen better days, and it is they which are causing some of the pain. _(I'm sure they are 20 years older than the rest of me! :lol: :lol: )_

As I said earlier, too many variables are involved to be categoric, but I would have to say that the statins did appear to be making it worse.

All other discussion points aside, it can't be good for you to take *any *medicines on a prolonged and regular basis if they are not really necessary.

Dave


----------



## raynipper

Are Statins safe...........................??

http://www.healthscams.org.uk/are-statins-safe.html

Ray.


----------



## StephandJohn

Thanks. I've read this info in other reports but, of course, none of this is acknowledged by the people supposedly responsible for safety of medicines.


----------



## BlondiS

I was put on statins by an enthusiastic doctor. After suffering pains on two different types (Simvastatin and Pravastatin) I read two books on the subject 'The Great Cholesterol Con' by Dr Malcolm Kenderick and 'The Statin Crisis' by Duane Graveline. 
Both books explain how cholesterol is vital to the body and the side effects of Statins.

The books may be controversial and I leave you to make your own mind up, but at least you will be better informed.

I decided to come off the tablets. After going on the 5-2 diet and losing some weight my cholesterol level has now come down to normal anyway.


----------



## StephandJohn

So - you didn't need the statins at all.Just modify your diet! Healthier for you than relying on chemicals and healthier for the NHS budget.


----------



## bulawayolass

After a close call (luckily it was an almost live message posting answering each other) on the DCUK forum last night a lass is on some grapefruit and veg "diet" luckily only been on it 2 days when l asked why she couldn't eat a normal diet other than diabetes did she have any other problems. Was told oh l am on statins...

My next comment in short sharp tones was stop all grapefruit NOW and read the effects it can and will kill you.

What l didn't know was the following info and may be useful one of the others posted.
(note the info at the end he was not on fruit but the last comment from what he said can apply with or without the fruit) .......

The same risks apply (although at a slightly lower lever) with some forms of oranges, clemetines, satsumas and pomelo's

It was explained to me that there is a specific enzyme involved which is found in many members of the Orange and Grapefruit family.

Grapefruit, and Orange juices are completely banned and I am permitted to eat a few segments of these fruit occasionally but only if I have not taken statins for at least 12 hours.

If you have experienced any unexplained bruising (we are talking big bruises not little ones) muscle or joint pain, or pain in your lower back (kidneys), see a doctor as quick as you can and tell them about the grapefruit. 

I suffered this while on high dose simvastatin without the grapefruit and had to drop the dose then change to lipitor, but caught it early enough to avoid any lasting damage. If I hadn't know about the grapefruit it would have been much worse.


----------



## goldi

BlondiS said:


> I was put on statins by an enthusiastic doctor. After suffering pains on two different types (Simvastatin and Pravastatin) I read two books on the subject 'The Great Cholesterol Con' by Dr Malcolm Kenderick and 'The Statin Crisis' by Duane Graveline.
> Both books explain how cholesterol is vital to the body and the side effects of Statins.
> 
> The books may be controversial and I leave you to make your own mind up, but at least you will be better informed.
> 
> I decided to come off the tablets. After going on the 5-2 diet and losing some weight my cholesterol level has now come down to normal anyway.


 Afternoon folks,

Could it be that people are not being diagnosed properly and given better advice or drugs ?

norm


----------



## StephandJohn

Yes, Goldi, it does mean that unfortunately. Scary though it is many doctors just don't understand what they are prescribing - they believe all the pharma company publicity and nothing else.
Also the MHRA who are supposed to regulate our drugs don't do it properly either!
Yet another problem is that doctors go for medication without considering other options first e.g. diet, counselling for mental health issues etc.
I have first hand evidence of all the above. I won't take anything now unless I have thoroughly researched it and looked at alternatives.
Its very worrying.


----------



## Steve_UK

I tested with high cholesterol about 17 years ago when I went to the doc for a checkup.

He faffed around for months with dietician and about three further tests (all showing high at around eight). To be fair, the dietician bit was the proper way to go, but she reported back that dietary cholesterol was not an issue.

I must admit that, after a few visits I let it drop as my wife had been diagnosed with cancer and it suddenly seemed not that important.

It was only some 10 or 12 years later that I happened to notice white deposits on one eyelid that I was eventually diagnosed with Familial Hypercholesterolemia. That genetic condition means that you're going to have high levels no matter how healthy your diet and lifestyle (though I make no claims to be angelic in either).

The specialist put me straight onto Atorvostatin which, at that time, was still a "protected" product and was expensive. My GP did, of course, try to change it to a generic product to which I said OK, fine. As long as you get the consultant's agreement. Nothing was changed!

That statin has stabilised my levels at less than 4 as a combined figure, though the balance of HDL and LDL isn't ideal. Unfortunately, presumably because I had high levels for so many years, I had a slight attack on "indigestion" three years ago which ended up convincing me that I mustn't self-diagnose, as heart attacks don't always present as they do on TV.

The good thing is that it all resulted in taking early retirement, buying a motorhome, and being here with you guys! Silver lining or what?


----------



## bulawayolass

Just been given This Link on Benecol and Pro Activa type


----------



## Scattycat

I would never suggest that anyone who has a diagnosed heart condition that needs medication should stop taking statins if that is what they have been prescribed, but I am concerned that many folks are prescribed statins, as a precaution, because they have what is considered high LDL cholesterol.
In a recent article I read it suggested that having a low LDL level can lead to the onset of certain cancers. Thinking that it sounded a bit, off the wall, I googled, " link between low LDL cholesterol and cancer" and I was amazed at how much information acknowledging the link was out there.

So that being the case the pharmaceutical companies can't loose can they? They persuade the medical profession that all folks over a certain age should take statins thereby making the companies loads of dosh and then sell loads of other drugs to try and cure the cancers that they have probably caused.
Am I cynical? You bet I am.
It was suggested sometime ago that because of a high cholesterol reading that I should take statins, but as I have a resting heart rate of around 50, no high blood pressure and having had various heart checks that prove it to be on the good side for my age I couldn't see the point and now my doctors agrees with me


----------



## aldra

Get your wieght downtown normal

And retest

Amazing the results

Aldra


----------



## Scattycat

aldra said:


> Get your wieght downtown normal
> 
> And retest
> 
> Amazing the results
> 
> Aldra


 :lol: Get my weight down!

You've obviously never met me. :lol: :lol:


----------



## aldra

So are you a svelt figure

No I haven't met you , sadly

But when Albert reduced his weight to normal

His cholesteral reduced to normal too

Worth a try

Some people at normal weight have high cholesteral 

Or what is considered normal

And they may well need treatment

But many don't, they are just overweight

And why, they eat the wrong proportion of cholestral building food

Aldra


----------



## Phil42

A couple of weeks ago I got a call from the surgery to say I should book an appointment to see the nurse for BP check and fasting lipids (cholesterol) test.

I'd seen the GP a month before and shown him a whole months BP results (twice a day) where the average was low 130's systolic and 80 diastolic. He said that this was pretty good. I've been on Losartan 25mg for a few months and, as he said, there's scope to up the dose in the future if need be.

Four months ago, I had a fasting lipids test:
Cholesterol: 4.7
Triglycerides: 0.9
HDL: 1.5
LDL: 2.8
Total cholesterol:HDL ratio: 3.1

The GP said this was fine (consistent with previous tests as well). He actually said he was envious.

So I declined the appointment with the nurse.

This week I got a call from the lead GP in the practice (only two of them). He was very polite and explained that they had been reviewing people who might be at risk of a cardiovascular event.

He said that there was a 21%risk of a heart attack or stroke in the next 10 years.

He also mentioned a specific symptom (rather personal  ) that I had raised when I was for a while on Ramipril. This was very effectively eradicated  when I switched to Losartan (as I then informed him). The calculators I've seen don't seem to allow for entry of such symptoms anyway.

He then very tentatively offered me Statins. I declined, having read quite a lot about them in the last year or so.

One question I should have asked and didn't was why hypertension adversely affects the risk when it is being effectively tackled by medication. If the medicinal effects don't reduce the risk, why am I taking the medication.

I also wonder whether GPs have to reach a target of Statin prescription.

He finished by saying (as I have read) that next year, the treatment threshold will be 10% risk. So, more pressure to look forward to!

Phil


----------



## rayc

Phil42 said:


> I also wonder whether GPs have to reach a target of Statin prescription.
> Phil


That would be an interesting fact to find out together with High Blood Pressure treatment. Britain has bcome the Statins capital of Europe.

Valerie Paris, an economist from the OECD's health division, said Britain's high place in the tables could be because GPs are given financial incentives to identify and treat heart disease as part of pay contracts which reward doctors for identifying and treating a long list so of diseases.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...ins-capital-of-Europe-according-to-study.html


----------



## StephandJohn

Professor Rory Collins of Oxford University who provides research for the British Heart Foundation (which promotes statin use as does Professor Collins), says "Statins should be given to all over-50s, regardless of their health history, because they dramatically cut the risk of heart attacks and strokes in later life."

Five statins currently have a UK marketing authorisation: atorvastatin, fluvastatin, pravastatin, rosuvastatin and simvastatin. Professor Collins lists his conflicts of interests as "engaged in research activities for pharmaceuticals Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Sanofi, and AstraZeneca", all of which make statins. Over 60 million statin prescriptions were issued last year with no supporting evidence for their use apart from info from pharmaceutical companies and influential academics with pharmaceutical interests like Professor Collins. Independent science is a rare thing.

The British Heart Foundation lists lifestyle/dietary choices at the end of its info page on statins under "How else can I lower my cholesterol?" inferring these as a secondary choice to statins but surely diet/exercise/smoking/drinking need addressing first before putting people on drugs?

So the BHF and NICE are promoting statin use on a colossal scale with no supporting evidence apart from pharmaceutical propaganda.

This article counters claims by pharma and Professor Collins:

http://chriskresser.com/the-diet-heart-myth-statins-dont-save-lives-in-people-without-heart-disease


----------



## Steve_UK

Whilst I fully support anybody questioning the use of statins (and indeed any drugs), especially where there is a question of commercial interest on the part of "experts" in the field, I would strongly urge anybody already on these drugs to raise any such concerns with their GP or consultant before deciding to stop taking them.

There may well be other issues in your own particular case that are not taken into account in the cases that you read about.


----------



## HermanHymer

http://www.runnersworld.co.za/nutrition/novel-dietary-ideas/

Professor Tim Noakes is a highly respected sports scientist at the University of Cape Town. He also debunks the low-fat, high carb diets as a cause of life-threatening illness.

I know the Cancer Association of SA are actively promoting the consumption of Omega 3's and 6's in THE RIGHT PROPORTIONS.

To read more about their version of a healthy diet go to www.cansa.org.za.

Read this link and see what you think.


----------

