# Is it only Fiat ... and related questions.



## TDG (May 26, 2009)

Having been a member and an avid reader of the Forum for a few months now, I am struck by the number of (mainly) transmission issues posted regarding Fiat and to a lesser extent Peugeot based motorhomes 
From observations on the road, it seems that they may have a good proportion of the market but,even so, surely the reported issues are totally out of proportion to their population?!
That being the case;
A) is it that those of us with blue ovals or 3-pointed stars on the bonnet have problems but don't report them?
B) how can it be that problems seem to span a considerable number of years and more than one engine/transmission size and so "infect" so many different vehicles.
C) these problems couldn't exist to any significant extent in the normal "white van man" applications becuse they would not have stayed in busines. Could it be that, as suggested elsewhere in the forum, the loadings we subject the drive train to are much more severe than the average panel van? See (H) below.
D) is it the case that the converters build such good vans that owners think the technical risks are worth taking?
E) is the Fiat chassis popular with converters because it is relatively cheap?
F) do the converters continue to use the Fiat base because they know that they can hide behind the (what seems to me) strange warranty arrangements split between chassis and habitation?
G) are the dealers dealers escaping too lightly? We pay our money only to the dealer so surely in law our only contact is with them?
H) what has happened to the consumer law concept of "fit for purpose"?

Any constructive (others under Jokes & Trivia please :wink: ) answers and/or comments on the above would be read with great interest.

I have some knowledge of the Italians from my dealings with them on *very* large diesel engines and I have to say that the concept of good engineering practice is not something they ever seem very comfortable with :twisted:


----------



## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

TDG said:


> I have some knowledge of the Italians from my dealings with them on *very* large diesel engines and I have to say that the concept of good engineering practice is not something they ever seem very comfortable with :twisted:


Given the history of Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Weber, Dellorto, Lombardini, Piaggio, Lambretta, Aer Macchi, Ducati, Moto Guzzi etc etc.

I think that's a rather sweeping statement.

It's strange that they still have a thriving motor industry and we don't, so they must be doing something right.


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

The problems all stem from the same stable, plenty of info on here, Alan.


----------



## TDG (May 26, 2009)

Stanner said:


> TDG said:
> 
> 
> > I have some knowledge of the Italians from my dealings with them on *very* large diesel engines and I have to say that the concept of good engineering practice is not something they ever seem very comfortable with :twisted:
> ...


Could it be my experience is more relevant to panel van transmissions than those great designs are?


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

The Transit forum indicates at first glance that there are many many problems that can happen to a transit owner. Are these generic or just unfortunate one offs?
http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50544


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm not wanting to pick a fight but IMHO

Ferrari = very temperamental and fragile 

Lamborghini = Ditto

Maserati = likewise

Alfa Romeo = beautiful but rubbish electrics

Lancia = rust buckets

Weber = touchy and hard to keep in tune

Dellorto = now we're getting somewhere

Lombardini = WTF

Piaggio/Lambretta = old junk tarted up

Aer Macchi = very nice, but again unreliable

Ducati = they seem to be OK

Moto Guzzi = used to be really good, now hairdressers bikes.


I can't think of a single thing that Italy makes which is world beating, OK they do make supercars but only in small numbers, Pizza is OK, as is Ice Cream, oh yeah Clothes and shoes seem to have a good rep.

I'm sure if you put any Italian item against a German item of the same type, most would go German if the prices were the same.

As I said not picking a fight, just a different opinion.

Kev


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Are there any British items to put against a German item of the same type to see if the same maxim holds?


----------



## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

rayc said:


> Are there any British items to put against a German item of the same type to see if the same maxim holds?


I wonder what British item you could put up against a T2 VW - Hmmmmm just about anything would win.


----------



## TDG (May 26, 2009)

Stanner said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > Are there any British items to put against a German item of the same type to see if the same maxim holds?
> ...


 A guy walks into the psychiatrist wearing only Clingfilm for shorts. The shrink says, "Well, I can clearly see you're nuts." 

I'm not often considered to be a particularly serious person but I started this thread trying to get an understanding of what appears to be a serious issue for some. 
However it seems to have developed into a cliquey and irrelevant thread so perhaps the Mods can find an appropriate topic to move these posts to.


----------



## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

TDG, people are drifting off topic because this has been widely discussed before, all the info. is readily available in other threads. Just do a quick search, the main post runs to hundreds of pages, theories abound. It is too extensive to recount again here, Alan.


----------



## cater_racer (May 1, 2005)

It might be a case of scale TDG. there must be 10 FIAT or PUG vehicles to every FORD or MERC.

I've had a FIAT Duck-a-two Motorhome for 7 years and it never missed a beat, I've now moved to a PUG 3.0 160HP Motorhome and it is a fantastic engine and gearbox, pulls like a train and smooth power delivery and slick gearchange. Love it it to bits, mind you I use top quality synthetic oil, and change it every 6 months or 3,000 miles. 

Some people have said I'm wasting money on oil, but I think otherwise.

I think people may underestimate the stresses that Motorhomes are subject to. Infrequent use and slow speeds round country roads are not ideal for vehicle that was designed to hammer down the Autostrada at 130KPH.

I hired a Ford based M/Home in Australia two years ago, and it blew a turbo in Mount Isa, and cam belt in Port Augusta. Once again I fear it was more to do with poor service regieme than engineering quality.


----------



## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

cater_racer said:


> I've now moved to a PUG 3.0 160HP Motorhome and it is a fantastic engine and gearbox, pulls like a train and smooth power delivery and slick gearchange. Love it it to bits,


It's still a Fiat whatever the badge. :wink:


----------



## cater_racer (May 1, 2005)

You're right Stanner, they are all made in the same factory and the badges are the only differences. The new PUG/FIAT 160PS 3.0 is in fact an IVECO engine.

It has one big redeeming factor, Timing chain!!!

It pulls my 4.25 T Augusta, with a trailer and race car + tyre rack as if it wasn't there!

I'm grateful for the speed warning bleeper, which keeps me legal.


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

quote: "You're right Stanner, they are all made in the same factory and the badges are the only differences. The new PUG/FIAT 160PS 3.0 is in fact an IVECO engine".

So is the 2.3 130BHP [an IVECO engine that is]


----------



## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Yep and if it has a 2.0/2.2 litre engine it's a Peugeot/Citroen (but built in a Fiat factory) as that engine is the Hdi.

Likewise the Fiat Scudo is a Peugeot/Citroen van built in a Peugeot/Citroen factory and all the engines (even if it says JTD) are Hdi's.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

> I'm not often considered to be a particularly serious person but I started this thread trying to get an understanding of what appears to be a serious issue for some.
> However it seems to have developed into a cliquey and irrelevant thread so perhaps the Mods can find an appropriate topic to move these posts to.


sorry TDG

Kev


----------



## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> > I'm not often considered to be a particularly serious person but I started this thread trying to get an understanding of what appears to be a serious issue for some.
> > However it seems to have developed into a cliquey and irrelevant thread so perhaps the Mods can find an appropriate topic to move these posts to.
> 
> 
> ...


And my apologies also as I do understand it is a serious issue for some


----------



## joedenise (Jul 20, 2007)

*stanner*

I totally agree with your - you pay your money to the dealer take it back to them to sort out. Your contract is with the dealer.

And then see how many dealers say there isn't a problem with them.

Joe


----------



## TDG (May 26, 2009)

Kev and rayc.... no prob. and, as erneboy said, the subject has been very, very comprehensively covered previously.
The problem for me, as a relative new comer, is that there is too much of it for my simple brain take in and try and get a picture of how & why it developed, the extent of it and where it may end.
Unfortunately, as an engineer who's spent his whole working life encountering such problems, trying to understand them and then finding the solution, it's something I don't seem to be able to grow out of and remain fascinated by the challenge.
How sad is that :?: :evil:


----------



## TDG (May 26, 2009)

cater_racer said:


> It might be a case of scale TDG. there must be 10 FIAT or PUG vehicles to every FORD or MERC.
> 
> .............. mind you I use top quality synthetic oil, and change it every 6 months or 3,000 miles.
> 
> Some people have said I'm wasting money on oil, but I think otherwise.......


Oh no you're not wasting money - well, maybe a bit at 3K miles! My choice is 6k. These new oils may have great anti-wear, anti-oxidising, anti-almost everything properties but no oil will not get get rid of the insoluble contaminants. Only filters can do that but I have extreme doubts that filters that are supposed to have a life of up to 30k miles can give really good levels of filtration.
Interestingly, Honda refuse to budge from 12.5K mile services for this reason.
I had an A4 with servicing that ran to about 23k miles but by 90k I had camshaft problems and was burning a lot of (£13/litre) oil. Mind you, that engine only held half a cup full of oil so it was working very hard indeed:redhotevil:


----------

