# Grip test - winter tyres v summer tyres



## mikebeaches (Oct 18, 2008)

Advocates of fitting winter tyres should like this 5-minute video:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-ne...letter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter

Mike


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Having had several 4 x 4's with summer tyres and now running a people carrier with winter tyres (November to March), I can confirm everything that they say in the video. My last 4 x 4 was shod with ludicrous Pirelli P Zeros that were so utterly useless in the snow that even front wheel drive cars with summer tyres had better grip than I had.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

mikebeaches said:


> Advocates of fitting winter tyres should like this 5-minute video:
> 
> http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-ne...letter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter
> 
> Mike


Saw it earlier today but hadn't got round to posting it yet.

But there will no doubt still be those who think winter tyres are a waste of money. :roll:


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

An issue I have Harped on about <<<Click for a long time.

Used them since the day I passed my Test at 17.

TM


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## Christine600 (Jan 20, 2011)

Winter tyres are more important to me than seatbelts or aibags.


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## Scattycat (Mar 29, 2011)

It certainly proves the benefit of fitting winter tyres. But for a lot of folks, us included, the cost of having a set of winter wheels and summer wheels is more than their budgets will run to.

So, what is the general opinion of running winter tyres all year around?

Has anyone tried this and if so what has been their experience regarding the difference in wear rate?


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Scattycat said:


> So, what is the general opinion of running winter tyres all year around?
> 
> Has anyone tried this and if so what has been their experience regarding the difference in wear rate?


TM and I (and others) have been doing it for years. 
There are far more occasions when winter tyres are better than summer tyres than the very rare occasions when summer tyres MIGHT be better.

Strange thing is I haven't come across the latter - it is clearly possible to show that winter tyres are staggeringly better in winter as that video shows. 
But it just isn't possible to show that summer tyres are any where near that much better than winter tyres in summer conditions.

As for wear I haven't noticed wear being greater by any appreciable amount - there is probably more differential in wear rates between different brands of tyres than between winter and summer.

Many on here have commented how less often they get stuck on wet grass etc. when using winter tyres like the Toyo H09s I use.

And no, they are not noticeably noisier on the road either.


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

I've used winter tyres all this last year for the first time.
Mostly the weather has been more suitable for winter tyres than summer ones. Cool or wet or cool and wet!
I,ve not noticed any glaring differences during day to day driving apart from a very slight increase in road noise, and it is very,very slight.
I have been over surfaces that, with summer tyres, I would ordinarily tried to avoid .
I can't recall any incidences of loss of grip when driving over grass or dirt.
I shall certainly be fitting winter tyres next time around.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

We run Nexen Roadian A/T which are M+S marked, all the year round, they are a good all-year tyre and not horribly expensive.

I don't have any issues with summer running at all.

Peter


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Tyres*

It makes a mockery of the Media Who Broadcast lines like "People with 4x4's are being asked to help out". Now is that a Land Rover or a BMW X6 with Summer Tyres?.

Having spent 2-3 weeks in Norway in winter for 5 years. Vast Majority of cars were FWD only. Ive seen more Faux 4x4's on the road In Chelsea, Alderley Edge and Altrincham on a School run.

Don't get me wrong, I am not anti Chelsea tractor. We had a BMW X5 way back. It was delivered with Summer tyres on and would not get up our slightly inclined drive without slipping.

TM


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## trevd01 (Oct 26, 2007)

My Freelander 2 runs on Vreidestein Wintracs

Being:

a) Automatic

b) 4WD

c) Fiited with winter tyres


Its pretty unstoppable in the snow (unfortunately that is downhill as well as uphill) :wink:


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Scattycat said:


> ISo, what is the general opinion of running winter tyres all year around?


Apart from the worse fuel consumption on winter tyres, the show stopper for me (running on them all year round) is the increased braking distances (plus 10%) when temperatures are above 7C. I want to know that I have as much braking performance as possible - others on here are less relaxed about that and run winter tyres all year round.


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## bulawayolass (Jul 27, 2010)

I was just having the car (toyota auris hybrid) serviced and asked about winter tyres. Cost is £140/tyre and they will baby sit your summer ones and £40 to swap/set which includes balancing.

I asked about keeping them on all year and was told not advised as designed to work best at -7 and wont work very well in summer the hotter it gets and l think may have mentioned fuel consumption but after 3hrs waiting my mind was glazed as my eyes. I was puzzled as to worth as l didnt think the uk roads got to -7 a lot. 

The winners of 3 tested in the OP video only cost £99 so l felt that 140 was a typical rip off but just nodded at the guy and zipped my mouth shut.


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## javea (Jun 8, 2007)

bulawayolass said:


> I was just having the car (toyota auris hybrid) serviced and asked about winter tyres. Cost is £140/tyre and they will baby sit your summer ones and £40 to swap/set which includes balancing.
> 
> I asked about keeping them on all year and was told not advised as designed to work best at -7 and wont work very well in summer the hotter it gets and l think may have mentioned fuel consumption but after 3hrs waiting my mind was glazed as my eyes. I was puzzled as to worth as l didnt think the uk roads got to -7 a lot.
> 
> The winners of 3 tested in the OP video only cost £99 so l felt that 140 was a typical rip off but just nodded at the guy and zipped my mouth shut.


If you want to buy winter tyres have a look on the websites of Oponeo or Reifen. Bought my Nokians from the former for substantially less than tyre suppliers in the UK.

What a lot of people don't realise is that the winters are so much better at clearing water when it is raining heavily, making the drive much safer.

As to cost, you have to remember that you are saving 6 month's wear on each set of tyres so I think that the extra cost is not that great when you take extra security into account. If you get a set of second hand wheels from ebay it makes the changeover so much easier.

Mike


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## icer (Dec 11, 2006)

I asked about keeping them on all year and was told not advised as designed to work best at -7 and wont work very well in summer the hotter it gets and l think may have mentioned fuel consumption but after 3hrs waiting my mind was glazed as my eyes. I was puzzled as to worth as l didnt think the uk roads got to -7 a lot. 

I thought the figure that they work better at, was +7C and below

Ian


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## ozwhit (Feb 29, 2008)

we run vredestien comtrac snow on our van for ski season . they ironically go on tomo . great tyres .


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## bigtwin (May 24, 2008)

peribro said:


> Apart from the worse fuel consumption on winter tyres, the show stopper for me (running on them all year round) is the increased braking distances (plus 10%) when temperatures are above 7C. I want to know that I have as much braking performance as possible - others on here are less relaxed about that and run winter tyres all year round.


An interesting outlook!

Given that summer tyres have poorer stopping distances (of the order of 20 - 30%) than winters in the winter, I'd rather have the substantially greater safety benefit in the winter period when the risks are higher.

For many people (largely those who commute) much of their winter miles will be undertaken early in the morning/late in the day when temperatures are rarely above 7 degrees. For me, it's a no brainer.

Each to their own however!


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I also run all year on winter tyres.

On the aspect of overall cost; having two sets to buy and either the cost of spare wheels or having the tyres changed on one set of wheels ; further, for MHs the tread on one set of tyres rarely wears through by the recommended 5 year replacement - I know many people go beyond that. So with two sets of tyres, run say 6 months p.a. each, one would be throwing away a lot of unused tread on the two sets. 

In my book the additional cost of two sets far exceeds the extra wear and increased fuel consumption (if any) - unless one were doing say 20,000 miles a year.

Geoff


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

I'm not trying to question the reasons for using winter tyres but would like to ask a question to be answered by anyone with genuine knowledge of the actual answer.
All of the tests and comparisons are done with new tyres, you will see one of the very noticeable features of the winter tyres is the small criss cross grooves in the top of the multiple tread pattern, these appear to be quite shallow but a very important part of the efficient working of the tyre, how long do they last?
How much does the performance suffer when only the tread blocks are left? this is likely to happen quite quickly if used year round I would have thought!
Some of the comparisons I've seen are to be honest unfair, comparing tyres with no block tread patterns against the winter ones, I believe the difference would be no where near as extreme if compared to shall we say a Michelin Agilis M&S rated or Conti Vanco camper M& S rated.
As usual statistics can be used to prove just about any argument. 
I'd suggest in real life if a tyre is made of a softer compound then it WILL wear out quicker, a heavy block tread WILL be noisier than a lighter blocked or radial grooved one, just as the new winter tyre WILL deliver superior performance in the conditions and temperatures they were designed for.


There are many example on this thread and previous ones of people that are extremely happy with their choice of running winter tyres year round, so they must work, mustn't they? :?


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

bulawayolass said:


> I was just having the car (toyota auris hybrid) serviced and asked about winter tyres. Cost is £140/tyre and they will baby sit your summer ones and £40 to swap/set which includes balancing.
> 
> I asked about keeping them on all year and was told not advised as designed to work best at -7 and wont work very well in summer the hotter it gets and l think may have mentioned fuel consumption but after 3hrs waiting my mind was glazed as my eyes. I was puzzled as to worth as l didnt think the uk roads got to -7 a lot.
> 
> The winners of 3 tested in the OP video only cost £99 so l felt that 140 was a typical rip off but just nodded at the guy and zipped my mouth shut.


Best not to take such advice from anyone whose main interest is to sell you TWO sets of tyres.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

eurajohn said:


> I'd suggest in real life if a tyre is made of a softer compound then it WILL wear out quicker, a heavy block tread WILL be noisier than a lighter blocked or radial grooved one, just as the new winter tyre WILL deliver superior performance in the conditions and temperatures they were designed for.


Not just "softer", just rubber that _stays_ softer when it gets colder.

As for the rest, there are plenty of us who do not experience your expected outcomes in our real life situation.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

I think that there are possibly two types of tyre being discussed:

1) Pure winter tyres with the Ice / Mountain symbol on the sidewall. Intended for low temperature operation.

2) All seasons tyres marked M+S (Mud + Snow) A/T (All Terrain)

Ours are the second type, rated for use all year round:

http://www.nexentireusa.com/tires/suv-light-truck/roadian-at

They are intended for SUV's and Light Trucks.

Peter

Edit:

Symbol explanation:

M+S, or M&S: Mud and Snow; A tire that meets the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) and Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) all-season tire definition.[14] These are all-weather tires, with self-cleaning tread and above-average traction in muddy or very light snowy conditions, and for low ambient temperatures. Spike tires have an additional letter, "E" (M+SE).

M+T, or M&T: Mud and Terrain; Designed to perform in mud or on other terrain that requires additional traction such as on rocks, in deeper snow, and in loose gravel.

Mountain Snowflake Pictograph: Winter passenger and light truck tires that meet the severe snow service requirements of Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) and Rubber Association of Canada (RAC).


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

bigtwin said:


> peribro said:
> 
> 
> > Apart from the worse fuel consumption on winter tyres, the show stopper for me (running on them all year round) is the increased braking distances (plus 10%) when temperatures are above 7C. I want to know that I have as much braking performance as possible - others on here are less relaxed about that and run winter tyres all year round.
> ...


It may be interesting if you are interested in purely subjective bollox.


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## bulawayolass (Jul 27, 2010)

Stanner l agree l only asked cause l was there, if l was to have them done l would go see Paul at Pauls Fast Car who has done our repairs over the years. 

I am only having the car serviced at huge expense by toyota as it is so early in warranty, l know can have it done elsewhere but with so many miles left .. 20k service done today l dont want an excuse if something goes wrong under warranty.


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## paulkenny9 (Jun 25, 2008)

Is it a feasable option to just put winter tyres on the driving wheels??

I have got new summer tyres on my front and the rears are due for replacement.

Would it be worthwhile me putting my good ones one the back and having new winters on the front??

Due to cost this would be a all year round solution.

It is my work van not a mh also.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

paulkenny9 said:


> Is it a feasable option to just put winter tyres on the driving wheels??
> 
> I have got new summer tyres on my front and the rears are due for replacement.
> 
> ...


With the different grip levels, I think it would be a bit dodgy to say the least, especially in ice or snow.

Peter


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

paulkenny9 said:


> Is it a feasable option to just put winter tyres on the driving wheels??
> 
> I have got new summer tyres on my front and the rears are due for replacement.
> 
> ...


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## trevd01 (Oct 26, 2007)

listerdiesel said:


> I
> 
> M+S, or M&S: Mud and Snow; A tire that meets the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) and Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) all-season tire definition.[14] These are all-weather tires, with self-cleaning tread and above-average traction in muddy or very light snowy conditions, and for low ambient temperatures. Spike tires have an additional letter, "E" (M+SE).
> 
> ...


My Freelander came with Continentals marked M+S. They are fine in the summer up here in the Pennines, although frankly they are not that good in the mud. Or the snow for that matter.

Not a touch on the snowflake marked M+S Vredestiens in the ice, snow, or wet. They are better in the mud, too.

When I drove 'real' Landrovers I was happy with BF Goodrich ATs all year round (M+S, no snowflake)


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## bigtwin (May 24, 2008)

Stanner said:


> It may be interesting if you are interested in purely subjective bollox.


You're going to have to help me out with this as I don't follow your point.

Ian


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

bigtwin said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> > It may be interesting if you are interested in purely subjective bollox.
> ...


Peribro constantly brings up this theoretical "10% loss of grip" in certain conditions should you use winter tyres all year round.

But never gives any indication of how/why/where/what is measured to produce that figure.

Whether ANY summer tyre is 10% better than ANY winter tyre or what - just boldly stating that he thinks his summer tyres will be 10% better than any winter tyres.

Any help?


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

I can't see that you would lose grip with a winter tyre in the summer, but the wear rate would be much higher in the summer due to the different compound being used. Grippier compounds by definition will wear much quicker.

Peter


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## bulawayolass (Jul 27, 2010)

l think that the guy l spoke to said something about grip due to compounds being effective at lower temperatures... l guess a reverse of why summer tyres wont do well in winter?


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Stanner said:


> Peribro constantly brings up this theoretical "10% loss of grip" in certain conditions should you use winter tyres all year round.
> 
> But never gives any indication of how/why/where/what is measured to produce that figure.
> 
> Whether ANY summer tyre is 10% better than ANY winter tyre or what - just boldly stating that he thinks his summer tyres will be 10% better than any winter tyres.


I've given links previously to a number of tyre tests and to articles about this very point i.e. why winter tyres are not recommended for summer use. If I have nothing else to do later in the day, then I'll look them out again. Meanwhile to quote from the AA's website:

"Winter tyres are not really suited to all year round use though - summer tyres will give better performance when temperatures are higher and roads dry - so you'll need two sets of tyres if you're going to choose specialist tyres for winter."


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

peribro said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> > Peribro constantly brings up this theoretical "10% loss of grip" in certain conditions should you use winter tyres all year round.
> ...


You can quote all you like, but my (and others) EXPERIENCE does not agree.

I have had summer tyres, expensive Bridgestone Turanzas, that DID NOT have 10% more grip under ANY conditions than any of my winter tyres.

Tests under ideal conditions on test tracks can "prove" anything, but it does not mean it's true in real life.

Personally I would rather have noticeably more grip 90% of the time than a theoretical 10% more grip for the 10% of the time we may or may not have ideal conditions.

You'll be telling me you believe the MPG figures produced by the "official" test programme next. :roll:

You believe all the "tests" you like, I'll believe my own experience thanks.


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## bigtwin (May 24, 2008)

Stanner said:


> bigtwin said:
> 
> 
> > Stanner said:
> ...


Thanks Stanner, that does clarify your point.

I wasn't sure which side of the debate you were on. I posted with 'general' figures for the winter vs summer tyres in winter conditions without providing specific references to back them up but with the full knowledge that there was a plethora of evidence available reporting the results of tests demonstrating the benefits of using winter tyres in the winter.

Thanks for clarifying.

Ian


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Stanner said:


> You can quote all you like, but my (and others) EXPERIENCE does not agree.


Or a What Car test here where the average stopping distance of a VW Golf with winter tyres on in the dry at 5.5C was 15% longer than with summer tyres on. And in the same test the worst performing summer tyre still had better performance than the best winter tyre.

Or an Auto Express test of winter and summer tyres here  in which it states "Dry braking
As in the dry handling test, the summer tyres have a clear advantage here thanks to their stiffer tread blocks."

Or a test by Helvetic'istituto TCS here in which winter tests stopped a car travelling at 100kmh in 51 metres whereas summer tyres stopped it in 38 metres.

Or a test by Auto Bild here  where it notes "In the dry, the summers advantage was further stretched, stopping in just 39.6 meters from 100 km/h, where the Goodyear [All Season] took 45.3 meters and the winter 48.6."

I could go on but you stick with your EXPERIENCE. I just hope that you don't have to make an emergency stop in the dry when a child or an anmal runs out in front of you, or a car pulls out of a sideroad in front of you.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

peribro said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> > You can quote all you like, but my (and others) EXPERIENCE does not agree.
> ...


So what are we meant to do carry both sets or wheels around with us 24/7 and swap them back and forth as the weather changes?

ON AVERAGE and IN MY EXPERIENCE we have far more inclement weather (and thus road conditions) than we have clement weather (and road conditions), so I am being prudent in equipping myself for the bad times and the worst conditions.

I still maintain that there is more likelihood of your summer tyres letting you down in everyday use, than my winter tyres will me.


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## Cherekee (May 1, 2005)

I changed to Continental Vanco Winter 2 tyres (specific soft winter snow tyres) when I bought my Rapido and got 25k out of them full time. Very quiet and water efficient. Always felt safe. I bought new this February at the Continental garage in Fussen (next to the Stellplatze) and the engineer advised Vanco Four Seasons were just as good and were fine for fulltime use. He said most white van man and motor homers used this version in Germany. I will not say what I paid as I am still having nightmares about it.

Suffice to say I would not see any reason to go back to "camper tyres"
with all that slipping and sliding on grass. That must tell you something about their efficiency if nothing else does.


Alan


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Cherekee said:


> I changed to Continental Vanco Winter 2 tyres (specific soft winter snow tyres) when I bought my Rapido and got 25k out of them full time. Very quiet and water efficient. Always felt safe. I bought new this February at the Continental garage in Fussen (next to the Stellplatze) and the engineer advised Vanco Four Seasons were just as good and were fine for fulltime use. He said most white van man and motor homers used this version in Germany. I will not say what I paid as I am still having nightmares about it.
> 
> Suffice to say I would not see any reason to go back to "camper tyres"
> with all that slipping and sliding on grass. That must tell you something about their efficiency if nothing else does.
> ...


The Cont vanco winter 2 tyres really are wonderful, we had them on our last MH, nothing stops them.

Paul.


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## goldi (Feb 4, 2009)

Evening folks,


I expect to get about half the mileage from my toyo ho 9 compared to the bridgestone standard tyres


norm


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## bigtwin (May 24, 2008)

goldi said:


> Evening folks,
> 
> I expect to get about half the mileage from my toyo ho 9 compared to the bridgestone standard tyres
> 
> norm


I expect you'll get more! :wink:

Ian


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## trevd01 (Oct 26, 2007)

It snowed here yesterday.

...they had the Air Ambulance in for some poor driver involved in a collision.


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

Stanner said:


> peribro said:
> 
> 
> > Stanner said:
> ...


I know which information I would believe when choosing the type of tyre I required and I don't think I would base the choice on the limited experience of a Forum member.
I do wish we were made aware of the area of expertise of "trade members".


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

BillCreer said:


> I know which information I would believe when choosing the type of tyre I required and I don't think I would base the choice on the limited experience of a Forum member.
> I do wish we were made aware of the area of expertise of "trade members".


As I've said you do what you want - I believe, based on my (not so limited - many years now!) experience, that winter tyres are far better suited to year round use than summer tyres which only manage to outperform them by just 10% in ideal dry braking conditions.

That is all very well if you only ever drive in such conditions - I don't!
When conditions are not ideal, winter tyres outperform summer tyres.
So I'm happy to trade -10% under ideal conditions, for up to +100% in less than ideal conditions.

Decent all round tyres are clearly a waste of money for fair weather motorhomers. :wink:


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

Stanner said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> > I know which information I would believe when choosing the type of tyre I required and I don't think I would base the choice on the limited experience of a Forum member.
> ...


Hi,

Not sure if I understand or agree with your maths but a lot of people are prepared to pay a premium for the 10% extra grip especially when the grip we are talking about is when the temperature is above freezing. i.e. most of the time.

For me it is all down to cost. I know the safest thing to do is use winter tyres for 3/4 months a year and have a set of "normal" tyres for the rest of the year.
The science behind winter tyre is irrefutable.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

BillCreer said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not sure if I understand or agree with your maths but a lot of people are prepared to pay a premium for the 10% extra grip especially when the grip we are talking about is when the temperature is above freezing. i.e. most of the time.
> 
> ...


If you read about winter tyres it is not


> when the temperature is above freezing. i.e. most of the time.


It is above 7degrees C which is a heck of a lot more of the time and that extra grip will be on a sliding scale (it can't just suddenly "switch on") so probably is not appreciably more until much, much higher than 7degrees C.

So given my experience of using winter tyres year round on a variety of vehicles I believe that theoretical 10% improvement is only ever true on bone dry roads when the temperature is over 15-20 degrees C.

In those circumstance you would probably be better off with slicks - so why not have a set of them instead?

The "drop off" of summer tyres at low temps is far greater (and far more noticeable and dangerous) than is the alleged "drop off" of winter tyres at higher temps.


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## trevd01 (Oct 26, 2007)

A few more thoughts in support of using winter tyres - and why using them all all year round in the UK is not a problem

1. The huge variation in stopping distances combining different car models, different summer tyres, and driver individual reaction times is far greater than the 10% increase in stoping distances in high temperatures.

2. Some cars e.g. Panda 4x4 and Panda Trekking are supplied on M=S and snowflake marked tyres as standard.

3. The Dunlop Winter tyres we have for our VW Polo Bluemotion have the same low rolling resistance as the original fitment low rolling resistance (summer) tyres - meaning we still can get 80mpg...


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## SwampThing (Mar 9, 2012)

We faced the same dilemma when we purchased our motorhome last year. The "camper tyres" on it were almost useless on wet grass so I had little faith in them in winter conditions.
After much research we opted for Vredestein Comtrac All Season tyres which are designed for all year use and have the M+S code and Three Peak Snowflake symbol so they qualify as a winter tyre where law states winter tyres must be used.
Overall we have been very impressed. Road noise appears no different to the old tyres and grip on wet grass / mud is transformed.
We used the van on a number of occasions last winter and had no problems although we didn't see any significant snow.
I assume these all year versions aren't going to be as good as the dedicated "winter only" tyres in extreme conditions but, to be honest, if conditions are that bad I'm probably going to stay put where I am as I wouldn't trust the other idiots on the road on summer tyres!
These seemed to us to offer the best of both worlds although I'm sure some would see them as a compromise as they aren't going to offer the absolute best in either summer or winter. I guess you pays your money and takes your choice


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## joedenise (Jul 20, 2007)

We ran with Toyo HO9s on our Burstner for the last couple of years but have changed our van to a Euromobile this year. Have tried to get some more HO9s but apparently none available and Toyo aren't manufacturing any more this year!

Want to change to M&S tyres but need to decide which ones. Our local tyre place have suggested Matodor MPS530 winter tyres - has anyone any experience of these?

Denise


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Stanner said:


> So given my experience of using winter tyres year round on a variety of vehicles I believe that theoretical 10% improvement is only ever true on bone dry roads when the temperature is over 15-20 degrees C.


So you obviously weren't impressed by the What Car test that concluded that even the worst summer tyres were better than the best winter tyres at 5.5C?

I am also struggling to understand how your experience can help us here. Since you use winter tyres year round how are you able to compare them to using summer tyres if you never use summer tyres? At least Bill, myself and the various test reports that I linked to have the benefit of using both sorts of tyres.

Also you say that the better braking performance of summer tyres in the dry is theoretical. What is theoretical about all the tests that I linked to? Or indeed what is theoretical about some of the tyre manufacturers' websites where they state the same, not to say the likes of the AA which you were dismissive of earlier?


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

SwampThing said:


> We faced the same dilemma when we purchased our motorhome last year. The "camper tyres" on it were almost useless on wet grass so I had little faith in them in winter conditions.
> After much research we opted for Vredestein Comtrac All Season tyres which are designed for all year use and have the M+S code and Three Peak Snowflake symbol so they qualify as a winter tyre where law states winter tyres must be used.
> Overall we have been very impressed. Road noise appears no different to the old tyres and grip on wet grass / mud is transformed.
> We used the van on a number of occasions last winter and had no problems although we didn't see any significant snow.
> ...


Hi,

There are no places, in Europe, where full "winter" tyres are required by law.

Michelin Agilis Camping tyres do not have a very aggressive tread pattern but are marked as M&S. Michelin Head Office assure me that they conform to all winter law requirement throughout Europe.

There are some areas where you are required to carry chains as they are the ultimate weapon when it comes to snow and ice.

(We went through all of this last year)


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

BillCreer said:


> Hi,
> 
> There are no places, in Europe, where full "winter" tyres are required by law.


Good luck when you have to argue your interpretation of "winter driving conditions" with the local polizei anytime between November and March. :wink:


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

joedenise said:


> We ran with Toyo HO9s on our Burstner for the last couple of years but have changed our van to a Euromobile this year. Have tried to get some more HO9s but apparently none available and Toyo aren't manufacturing any more this year!
> 
> Want to change to M&S tyres but need to decide which ones. Our local tyre place have suggested Matodor MPS530 winter tyres - has anyone any experience of these?
> 
> Denise


When I couldn't get a hold of Toyo HO9s either, I went for Bridgestone Blizzak W800s as recommended on here. 215/75x16

Cheers,

Jock.


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

Stanner said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...


I took the initiative to contact the Technical Staff at Michelin UK HQ.

What do you base your knowledge on?

(We went through this last year)


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

P.S. Just saw this PDF Document from Bridgestone

For the doubters, please note the first paragraph on page 10, ie,  "Once the temperature drops below 7°C, winter tyres are more effective than equivalent summer tyres, on bad road
conditions (wet, snow, ice, ...) but also in good conditions (dry)."


I'm quite chuffed with the performance of mine on snow, wet grass, and wet roads. 

Cheers,

Jock.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Here's a published listing by the AA of European requirements:

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/snow-chains-winter-tyres.html

Peter


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

JockandRita said:


> For the doubters, please note the first paragraph on page 10, ie,  "Once the temperature drops below 7°C, winter tyres are more effective than equivalent summer tyres, on bad road
> conditions (wet, snow, ice, ...) but also in good conditions (dry)."


I'm not sure that anyone on this thread is doubting that winter tyres are better than summer tyres at temperatures below 7C, whether it be snow, ice, rain or dry. What is being debated is whether winter tyres are better than summer tyres year round and the presumption must be from the statement by Bridgestone that they aren't - otherwise why else would they say "Once the temperature drops below 7°C..."?


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## uncleswede (Apr 16, 2010)

An earlier post in this thread mentioned no difference in road noise between summer and winter tyres which I mildly disagree with. 

We run winter tyres all year round (Goodyears) and there is definitely more road noise when driving on roads with a layer of standing water. With dry roads or in heavy rain I can't hear any additional road noise.


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

uncleswede said:


> An earlier post in this thread mentioned no difference in road noise between summer and winter tyres which I mildly disagree with.
> 
> We run winter tyres all year round (Goodyears) and there is definitely more road noise when driving on roads with a layer of standing water. With dry roads or in heavy rain I can't hear any additional road noise.


In his defence what he actually said was "And no, they are not noticeably noisier on the road either." I think he was conceding that they may be a little bit noisier!! I certainly notice a slight increase in road notice but it's not so much that I find it offensive.


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## uncleswede (Apr 16, 2010)

Defence not necessary


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

As always everyone's opinion (experience) is better than all others!

In reality the opinion of one person or another is just that, nothing more than that persons belief or opinion of the subject in question.

All of the referred to tests and reports are carried out under what we are led to believe to be controlled conditions using NEW equipment, the results are monitored and recorded then reported. Individuals "experience" is exactly that, the individuals take on what they have and how whatever it is has performed for them, this does not make it better or worse information than the controlled reports available.
Some posts are from persons with a very strong opinion, which does not make them better or more correct than any other, controlled or otherwise.

I believe that virtually all motorhome owners will and do drive well within their and their vehicles performance limitations, so I'd suggest that most miles travelled will be done well within whatever tyres fitted to the vans performance capacity.
Soggy grass parking spots are not exactly within most peoples journey, although they may figure at the journeys end.

So are winter tyres worth the the cost, noise and reduced mileage that is proven they will return? some will say yes (loudly) others no and some won't give a toss, they'll fit the cheapest available. 

If going to Alpine regions in the Winter period definitely fit a brand new set of Winter spec tyres, to stay within the law.


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## Scattycat (Mar 29, 2011)

According to the Continental tyre manufactures website they suggest that if you aren't able to afford both winter and summer tyres and you need to replace your present tyres then, even though there is a slight trade off in stopping distances, most folks would be best advised for all round performance to purchase winter tyres for all year use.

If I've understood all the info I've read then winter tyres have more rubber in their make up and therefore warm up quicker and so have more grip than pure summer tyres that have a more synthetic compound and are harder.

If I hark back to my motorbike days the softer the tyre compound the grippier they were. So I would think that using winter tyres all year round on the camper would give me better grip all year round. The main trade off would be that the softer tyres would wear quicker but, as on the bike, a lot depends on how you drive.

I suppose at the end of the day it's just down to the individual, but I think I know where my money is going when I change my black circles


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

Scattycat said:


> According to the Continental tyre manufactures website they suggest that if you aren't able to afford both winter and summer tyres and you need to replace your present tyres then, even though there is a slight trade off in stopping distances, most folks would be best advised for all round performance to purchase winter tyres for all year use.
> 
> If I've understood all the info I've read then winter tyres have more rubber in their make up and therefore warm up quicker and so have more grip than pure summer tyres that have a more synthetic compound and are harder.
> 
> ...


I agree. If I couldn't afford or didn't want to swap tyres once a year, then assuming that my mileage was approximately equal between winter and summer months, then running winter tyres all year round would be the best option. However I would remain mindful that my stopping distances will be increased in the dryer months.


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