# Towing a car



## Chausson (Oct 17, 2006)

Hi all.
I would like to ask all those who have done/doing, towed a car behind the M/H in france or spain as my understanding is that it's illegal there. I have written to the french embassy they told me yes it's against the law. I am sure I have read on this web site that providing your own state allows you to use oone then member states [france/spain] will allow but I cannot find the link to it again.
Is there anyone out there that can help if it's only your experience then that's fine all I want is some help.

Thanks all
Ron

:?


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Towing*

Hi

Various answers - do a search of the forum to talk about this heated discussion subject.

For further reading...

http://www.ntta.co.uk/faq/default.htm

and

http://www.towtal.co.uk/towtal.pdf

There is much on the net about the subject.

Rapide561


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## 101405 (Oct 15, 2006)

*Towing a car Europe*

Hi Chausson, For safety sake and piece of mind put it on a trailer, 4 brakes, more lights and you can see IT !! and its also easy for you to control , Forward and backwards think of it as a curve ! but also think of what its going to cost you on the autoroutes, Wow!! So bring the bikes and save your life,


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

Done loads of trips over there towing with an A frame and so have countless 100s of others. Theres been nobody stopped and fined yet as far as anybody is aware. We have personally towed all around this country, France, Germany, Luxembourg, Belgium, Holland and parts of switzerland with no bothers whatsoever. weve had police cars and motorbikes sat next to us in traffic and also passing us on the motorways without so much as taking a second glance. I think they have got so used to seeing motorhomes towing cars now over the last few years they just dont bother. On a recent trip I lost count of the numbers of English motorhomes we passed towing on A frames. I checked out with our insurance company ( safeguard ) when I swopped over from towing with a trailer and they were totally happy with A frame towing. Trailers are fine but the extra hassle of stowing them safely so that they dont get stolen and are not in anybodys way on campsites when you arrive used to get me down plus having to strap the car on each wheel each time you move on. The A frame takes two minutes to put on and off and your done.


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

> Done loads of trips over there towing with an A frame and so have countless 100s of others. Theres been nobody stopped and fined yet as far as anybody is aware. We have personally towed all around this country, France, Germany, Luxembourg, Belgium, Holland and parts of switzerland with no bothers whatsoever. weve had police cars and motorbikes sat next to us in traffic and also passing us on the motorways without so much as taking a second glance. I think they have got so used to seeing motorhomes towing cars now over the last few years they just dont bother. On a recent trip I lost count of the numbers of English motorhomes we passed towing on A frames. I checked out with our insurance company ( safeguard ) when I swopped over from towing with a trailer and they were totally happy with A frame towing. Trailers are fine but the extra hassle of stowing them safely so that they dont get stolen and are not in anybodys way on campsites when you arrive used to get me down plus having to strap the car on each wheel each time you move on. The A frame takes two minutes to put on and off and your done.


I would agree 100% with what Tony has said. I have exactly the same experience and would add to the list of countries I have towed in Spain, Italy, Austria and Andorra.
I would add, I tow a Smart car on an unbraked A frame. No lighting board.


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

Hey DJP is that legal no lighting board. Can understand maybe your not heavy enough for no brakes but everything needs a number plate & lights surely? Would have thought that not having those would have drawn unwanted attention to yourself.


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

hi Tony
When I had my A Frame and Towbar fitted at Towtal they said I did not need one. 
The lights on the Smart do work in conjunction with the MH lights (wired via 7 pin plug from Smart to standard lighting socket on MH). The reflectors on the Smart are acceptable. It would appear, so I am told that triangular reflectors are not a legal requirement only the spacing and a minimum size. To help back this up. when we had our Lunar motorhome the standard reflectors on the MH were in fact triangular!


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

*Re: Towing a car Europe*



silversurfa said:


> Hi Chausson, For safety sake and piece of mind put it on a trailer, 4 brakes, more lights and you can see IT !! and its also easy for you to control , Forward and backwards think of it as a curve ! but also think of what its going to cost you on the autoroutes, Wow!! So bring the bikes and save your life,


You mean tow another 300kg's of metal and rubber around with you quite unececarily........


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

Sorry DJP must have been having a brainstorm. Course you dont need a lighting board I was daydreaming going back to me days towing a boat trailer  Our own cars lights are linked through the motorhomes same as yours. we have put reflective triangles in the back window of the car also. I read somewhere that somebody was stopped by the police in this country and told that they should also have a long vehicle warning sign on the back also but dont know if this is a legal requirement or not. How do you get away with not having the smart braked whilst its a trailer isnt it heavy enough?


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## Chausson (Oct 17, 2006)

Hi
Thanks for the responses, I intend to tow our smart [without trailer] don't need the extra weight or hassle as Tony said. I did contact the french embassy they were categoric it had to be on a trailer otherwise it's against the law.
I shall just try it and see.

DJP I see you also do not have a brake system, have you given any thoughts to the brake buddy, a friend of mine has one he reckons it's great, I shall give it more thought but the price tag is the obstacle at roughly £800 ooooooh.
As you may have guessed I am new to M/H been caravanning for years though.

:wink:


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## 92180 (May 1, 2005)

I tow a Smart on a trailer and feel happy that I do. I have no problem with the extra 230kgs (BJT) or the fitting of the loading straps 5 minutes for 4 wheels. I cannot see how you get away with no brakes on the Smart as it is not the 730kgs that is the towing weight but the weight at max load which is I think 900kgs - that requires brakes. 

As for security , I have a hitch lock and with a padlock through the ramps it makes the trailer and the car very secure. 

Parking on site is never an issue , maybe at you house, but not in my case. 

I do not want this to start the is or is it not illegal conversation again it is personal choice. I just asked VOSA and they said it was illegal - all be it not currently enforced - but maybe it will be this year. 
EU law is EU law. 

Get a trailer


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## 98937 (Apr 28, 2006)

People that tow on A frames are probably the type of people that use their mobile phones whilst driving, on the basis that if you can get away with it, then do so. regardless of it being illegal
john


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## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

Parked next to a tugger in France, turned out to be a retired Police man, in fact the longest serving motorway patrol officer 26 years, anyway in his opinion A Frame illegal, reason why you don't get stopped the new coppers do know they are.

Still quite fancy one though.


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## des (Aug 13, 2005)

to john / hotdisk79

why choose to be so offensive? is it because you can get away with it?

des


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## 98937 (Apr 28, 2006)

You would only be offended if you used an A frame or a mobile phone whilst driving! both illegal
john


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## des (Aug 13, 2005)

been here before. see numerous threads on a-frames. by all means state your opinions, but as i said before, absolutely NO NEED TO BE OFFENSIVE. Mods please note.


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## 2kias (Sep 18, 2006)

I have just bought a motor home to stop towing. If I was going to tow a car then I would have kept the caravan.
Getting an electric bike I think!!!!!


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

I tow on an A frame to get the best of both worlds. With a a 7.5 m motorhome its not an easy job to visit places and travel around the sights. Park up on a campsite in say the middle of cornwall and drive by car to all the little nooks and crannies that you couldnt possibly visit with a motorhome. Towing a car on an A frame is effortless and certainly not stressful, the car just follows wherever you go. Wifes slightly disabled and cant walk very far so we are also able to take her mobility scooter in the back of the car also.


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

hotdisk79 said:


> People that tow on A frames are probably the type of people that use their mobile phones whilst driving, on the basis that if you can get away with it, then do so. regardless of it being illegal
> john


Im not sure what sort of person you are but no I dont use a mobile whilst driving, and no A frames are not illegal. Suggest you get of the board mate. Opinions are opinions, that was an insult.


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

There sure are some obnoxious individuals about with some weird views on things.


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

The insurance companies who have to operate with in the law clearly consider A feames legal.MFH link


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## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

Hi 2Kias

On a recent trip while loading the smart up onto the trailer I overheard one chap saying to another 'looks like to much hard work for me'

Some time later that day, I seen the above about 4 miles down the road with a bottle of milk, in pouring rain peddling like his life depended on it.

Looked to much like hard work to me !!


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

Towing a car on an A-frame and using a 'Brake-Buddy' system to apply the brakes on the towed vehicle is not legal.

Regarding the weight of the towed vehicle being light enough to not need a braked A-Frame, the rules are that if the said vehicle has brakes, they MUST operate when the towing vehicle brakes are applied.

So, ANY towed car that has it's wheels on the road MUST have it's brakes applied by the towing vehicle, regardless of weight.

HTH

Bryan


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## 2kias (Sep 18, 2006)

TonyHunt said:


> I tow on an A frame to get the best of both worlds. With a a 7.5 m motorhome its not an easy job to visit places and travel around the sights. Park up on a campsite in say the middle of cornwall and drive by car to all the little nooks and crannies that you couldnt possibly visit with a motorhome. Towing a car on an A frame is effortless and certainly not stressful, the car just follows wherever you go. Wifes slightly disabled and cant walk very far so we are also able to take her mobility scooter in the back of the car also.


I agree that some places are difficult to visit with a motorhome, particularly in Cornwall but we intend to camp somewhere in the middle and hire a small car for a few days. Seems the logical alternative to towing.


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

So if it has them then thats ok and I and hundreds of others that have the proper kit are ok also


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## 100390 (Aug 7, 2006)

We have been here before.

Suggest you all do a search on this site for A-frame to Germany, 144 postings on this subject.

Personally I belive it has not yet been proved legal, I also have it in writing from VOSA that it is illegal, plus umpteen other sources.

The sum total is that you pays your money you takes your chance, but if you seek out that earlier thread one of the most important points is that you ensure your insurance company is fully aware you are towing with an A-frame, actually state it to them and/or the car insurance about how you tow the car. An earlier thread advised that one insurer viewed it that their insurance policy is valid if the car is being driven, being towed is not being driven, so the car policy would not cover an accident.

By the way have I not seen other posting re the Smart car which advises in the handbook they have to be trailered, cannot comment do not have a Smart but another route perhaps it is worth looking into.

Del


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

WebAgents said:


> Towing a car on an A-frame and using a 'Brake-Buddy' system to apply the brakes on the towed vehicle is not legal.
> 
> Regarding the weight of the towed vehicle being light enough to not need a braked A-Frame, the rules are that if the said vehicle has brakes, they MUST operate when the towing vehicle brakes are applied.
> 
> ...


Your right we have been here before, and for that matter proven that towing with an A frame is legal. It is also safe and practical. The clarification from insurance companies that I posed was volenteered by the companies in question and I feel clarifies the matter for those insured with the companies concerned. Since I recieved the information other insurance companies have followed suit in clarifying their position.

Re braking, My own car does break then the MH breaks are applied. The system of overrun brakes is also used on most trailers also so there is no diference in this respect.

The question did arise questioning the need to tow a car at all. Given the option I would prefer not to and when possible I dont take the car with me. Like others who have writen here, practicality due to my situation dictates I need to take a small car with me. Given that it is the most practical, legal and effiecnet means of having alterative car transport thats what my choice was. When I made the choice it was irespective of cost although it is a less expensive option than a trailer.


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

2kias. You obviously got money to burn if your going to do that every time you go somewhere. My missus wouldnt go away now if we didnt have the car and the freedom to go shopping and visit all the local attractions and places of interest. Last time we were in spain for a month in Benidorm we put over a 1000 miles on the car just touring the local countryside and small towns.


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

Tony


> How do you get away with not having the smart braked whilst its a trailer isnt it heavy enough?


Again it is this very GREY area and open to debate depending on "trailer" weight. The Smart comes in at 720kg with 80% fuel so under the 750kg level. Again it is debatable whether the Gross vehicle weight 900+kg should be noted.


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

> People that tow on A frames are probably the type of people that use their mobile phones whilst driving, on the basis that if you can get away with it, then do so. regardless of it being illegal
> john


John
Hand on heart have you ever done anything illegal?
e.g. You have never exceeded the speed limit
You have never parked illegally
You have never assaulted anyone verbally or otherwise.
You have never bounced a cheque
The list could be endless.

I will continue to tow on an A frame until such a point the law becomes black and white and proved in a court of law.


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

I was always told its the gross vehicle weight that they go by. My Agila weighs 1050kg. The only vehicle that is definatly underweight and doesnt need brakes to be towed is the french Aixim. Thats according to all the blurb Ive read anyways. My missus and me would never have got in the front of one of them side by side so that was out for a start.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi your right tony, no grey area there, its the GVW not the actual weight.
I have a "C" licence when driving my 9 ton RV I can't tow my 1300kg GVW trailer empty without taking the "C+E" licence. (it weighs 300kg empty) max for "C" licence over 7.5 tonnes is 750kg GVW

Olley


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## DJP (May 9, 2005)

> I was always told its the gross vehicle weight that they go by


Correct as usual Tony :hathat35: :roll: :wink: :wink:
If stopped I would demand being taken to a weighbridge to prove my innoc :lol: ense


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

Trouble is the b-gg-rs would take you too. We run two 7.5 ton lorries with our business and are constantly fretting that either the Dorchester or the Ringwood weighbridges are working when we pass each day. Hey Olley isnt the C licence the one that allows you to drive something upto 7.5 tonnes max plus the 750kg trailer. How come your driving a 9 tonne M/H :wink:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi Tony, no thats the "C1" licence, the one you got for your "grandfather" rights, the "C" (old class 2) is up to 32? tonnes rigid and the "C+E" is your artic licence (old class 1)

Nothing like making it complicated.

Olley


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## 89767 (May 1, 2005)

takeaflight said:


> Parked next to a tugger in France, turned out to be a retired Police man, in fact the longest serving motorway patrol officer 26 years, anyway in his opinion A Frame illegal, reason why you don't get stopped the new coppers do know they are.
> 
> Still quite fancy one though.


Did you ask which law is being broken by towing a car on an A frame?

Nobody has yet explained to me why a caravan can have an A frame & be legal but a car with 4 braked wheels towed on an A frame is illegal, if all legal lighting/reflector requirements are met.

Keith


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## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

Keith

No I didnt I always think of the questions about two hours to late.


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## Chausson (Oct 17, 2006)

Hi
With all this banter going on I thought I would throw this into the pile.

How come you can tow a vehicle on a BAR that has no tax no insurance and no MOT, go even further, possibly no engine/gearbox umm No brakes to talk of.

I had to tow a car from staines to Cardiff a trailer hire was far to expensive for a few hours hire [if I could have got one like three weeks waiting], so I called my local police station to ask and was told by a P C that providing it was on a rigid bar all was ok, obviously I took his name to be safe from prosecution.

Ron


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## 101276 (Oct 6, 2006)

*towing with an a frame*

1 have been towing with an aframe around europe for 7 years
towed a vitara, escort, smart car and now an a class been all over europe been pulled twice in spain to check papers nothing was said about the aframe.
For anybody who wants to tow a car on an a frame just go for it the worst that could happen is you get a fine,
the people who say it is illegal are just to scared to try it or envy those who do.
we have had loads of police see our car on the back of the motorhome in service areas or on the motorway
and never had a problem.
The ones who do not tow are the ones who ask for a lift to the shops at campsites.

Steve


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

You hit the nail on the head steve.


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

Towing on an A-Frame is not illegal. (As long as the brakes on the towed vehicle are applied by the towing vehicle.)

Police cannot tell if the A-Framed vehicles brakes are operated as detailed above and so are not going to do anything as you may very well be towing on an A-frame legally.


Regards
Bryan


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

Decca said:


> We have been here before.
> 
> Suggest you all do a search on this site for A-frame to Germany, 144 postings on this subject.
> 
> ...


Same disingenuous mantra as always! :evil: Some A-frame setups are illegal some replicate/meet trailer setups/regulations exactly :lol: and no official body has ever condemmed A-frames as illegal per se, only their application, which is variable.

Noel.


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

TonyHunt said:


> I was always told its the gross vehicle weight that they go by. My Agila weighs 1050kg. The only vehicle that is definatly underweight and doesnt need brakes to be towed is the french Aixim. Thats according to all the blurb Ive read anyways. My missus and me would never have got in the front of one of them side by side so that was out for a start.


Weight is a red herring. If a "trailer" has brakes they must be operative. No car comes without brakes therefore a-frame must be of the braked variety OR operate the car's brakes via an electric brake buddy.


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

Keith said:


> takeaflight said:
> 
> 
> > Parked next to a tugger in France, turned out to be a retired Police man, in fact the longest serving motorway patrol officer 26 years, anyway in his opinion A Frame illegal, reason why you don't get stopped the new coppers do know they are.
> ...


Could not agree with you more! A-frame combinations CAN meet all legal requirements, others do not, just like a large percentage of other caravan/trailer combinations. It is up to the buyer to ensure they do meet the regs.

Noel.


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

Chausson said:


> Hi
> With all this banter going on I thought I would throw this into the pile.
> 
> How come you can tow a vehicle on a BAR that has no tax no insurance and no MOT, go even further, possibly no engine/gearbox umm No brakes to talk of.
> ...


I think this is a concession to "remove a broke vehicle to a place of safety or repair" similar to temporary a-frames being chained to any vehicle as opposed to being a properly engineered permanent modification/fit.

Noel.


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

Noel said:


> Decca said:
> 
> 
> > We have been here before.
> ...


Odd because I have it from VOSA that it is legal.... Like a trailer or any vehicle for that matter there are conditions ,like the breaks have to be applied when the towing vehicle brakes. But they seem are fine with it.

On the Eurpoean main land the requirement is clear, that the laws and standards to which the vehicles contry of origin meets will be accepted. I cant recall from memory the exact phrasing with out going to look it up.

So wheres the problem ?


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

...


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

Noel said:


> Weight is a red herring. If a "trailer" has brakes they must be operative. No car comes without brakes therefore a-frame must be of the braked variety OR operate the car's brakes via an electric brake buddy.


Comment re: weight is correct as is comment re: if trailer has brakes they must be operative.

However, they must operate 'continuously'. I.E. they must be applied THROUGH the towball connection when you apply the towing vehicles brakes. A brake buddy system is not legal because it is an INDEPENDANT braking system.

I got the above from an engineer in the Department for Transport.


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

Is it not better to use an electrical vacum pump ? also far less costly.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

WebAgents said:


> Noel said:
> 
> 
> > However, they must operate 'continuously'. I.E. they must be applied THROUGH the towball connection when you apply the towing vehicles brakes. A brake buddy system is not legal because it is an INDEPENDANT braking system.
> ...


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## awr (Jan 11, 2006)

HEY JOHN, NOT A FAIR COMPARISON...Its a personal choice,pays your money and take your chance. I would put overloaded vans as a much more unsafe issue[a better comparison to the use of a phone whilst driving]


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

WebAgents said:


> Noel said:
> 
> 
> > Weight is a red herring. If a "trailer" has brakes they must be operative. No car comes without brakes therefore a-frame must be of the braked variety OR operate the car's brakes via an electric brake buddy.
> ...


Well, yes the brake buddy is mechanically independant but does not operate spuriously or by any other input other than by sensing deceleration forces created by the motorhome slowing. The regs, as always, are lagging behind innovation and pioneering engineering which achieves the result required by different methods. Good job we didn't have such jobsworths when fly-by-wire replaced mechanical linkage in the latest UK fighter aircraft, which have to pass airworthiness considerations! However, accept that currently and until or if ever the laggardly legislators catch up, brake buddy is technically "illegal" by achieving the directive but not by the narrow method worded in the regs.

Noel.


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

davebl said:


> Noel said:
> 
> 
> > Decca said:
> ...


Exactly! Problems only seen from people who want a 100% written Guarantee/Certificate of Conformity, to be led by the hand and take no responsibility themselves as a user. This will never happen with a-frames as there are too many user variables, just as there is with towing any other type of trailer and countless other situations on the road in particular and with life in general!

Noel.


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## des (Aug 13, 2005)

well said guys! just bought a shopping trolley, complete with chris cox towbar, for SWMBO! A 4litre jeep wrangler. (1993, but immac.). tows a treat. am really p***d off i bought it for her. should be mine, mine, mine! however, quite a weight on the back, and prob. pushing both the max train weight, and the towbar limit. so, back to the punto. with brake buddy, of course. boring, boring, boring!

des


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

Noel said:


> Well, yes the brake buddy is mechanically independant but does not operate spuriously or by any other input other than by sensing deceleration forces created by the motorhome slowing. The regs, as always, are lagging behind innovation and pioneering engineering which achieves the result required by different methods. Good job we didn't have such jobsworths when fly-by-wire replaced mechanical linkage in the latest UK fighter aircraft, which have to pass airworthiness considerations! However, accept that currently and until or if ever the laggardly legislators catch up, brake buddy is technically "illegal" by achieving the directive but not by the narrow method worded in the regs.
> 
> Noel.


I agree, it's a right royal pain that technical innovation is not being kept up with by the 'authorities'. The brake buddy system looks great and we would have loved to consider it. The law being as it is however made us go the trailer and car route to avoid any issues if we have to rely upon our insurance at some later date.

Interesting to note that whilst some of the advice is as follows...
"the towed vehicles brakes must apply when the towing vehicles brakes are applied"... the overrun trailer does not do this. Consider the situation whilst stopped at traffic lights, holding the MH on the foot brake. The trailers brakes are not applied.

Bryan


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## beyondajoke (Jun 24, 2005)

Hi Guys, 

I have just started towing daewoo matiz on a Chris Cox A frame. Having been an Rac patrolman and now for the past 18 years having an Mot testing station, I have towed all sorts of outfits in many differing conditions, my current system also uses a brake buddy and in my opinion, regardless of this law or that law it really comes down to how you view your own safety and that of your fellow roaduser, I have a "trailer" which has been the subject of an MOT test, I have an independent method of applying the brakes to all four wheels at once (including a breakaway situation) and an outfit which is well lit and doesn't "snake" when being passed by your Juggernaught!!......now ask yourself the question..does all this bickering get this issue any further on? I think not, you must pay your money and take your chance. Either way and whatever method you choose to use, I wish you luck....if the coppers have had a bad day, it wont matter what you're towing, they'll pull you and do their worst if they can. 



Regards 


Harold


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

beyondajoke said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> now ask yourself the question..does all this bickering get this issue any further on?


Bickering? I thought we were having an informative discussion to enable potential newcomers to towing to come to an informed decision but what I will not take is persons purporting to make "definitive statements" that my combination is illegal when they have no evidence or knowledge it is!

Noel.


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## 100512 (Aug 13, 2006)

< I thought we were having an informative discussion>

Absolutly....


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

*Brake Buddy*

Given that a brake buddy costs about £800 can anyone tell me what is the advantage of them over the braked frame please becuase that is an awful lot to splash out when in my experience the braked frame does a good job?

peedee


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