# Fiat no horn earth. Help.



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

OK Guys and maybe David-David new video project.
Just about to get van ready for it's MOT and I find the horn don't work.
It's a 2000 Ducato cab and there is a permanent pos to the horn and no neg when horn button is pressed.
I have taken the horn off and checked it works OK. Linked out the two contacts at the steering wheel but still no neg at the horn.

Does anyone know the whereabouts of the horn earth point please? I had assumed it was local to the actual horn but it's more likely to be in the vicinity of the steering column.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

It's a horn button on the stalk Ray? Are the contacts you refer to those in the stalk?


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

No Alan.
As I have a removable steering wheel there are two brass contacts in the 'boss' which are easily accessable and linked out.

Ray.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

What I'm thinking Ray is that the brass contacts complete the circuit so it goes through them straight to earth. There must be another wire on the other side of the button going to the horn. Effectively two wires to the button, one in from the horn and the other out to earth. Find the other wire and check it for continuity or run a replacement out the window and round to the neg side of the horn. I'm assuming that if you put a wire on the neg side of the horn and ground it the horn works OK? Alan.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes Alan.
All true.
But I was hoping someone just might have located the earth point under the dash or footwell.
I guess before running new wires I will get the van out to access the footwell area and search around for any earthing point.

Ray.


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## havingfun (Oct 31, 2007)

*fiat no horn*

hi ray,

we had the same problem while in morrocco this year,i know bernard spent ages finding out where it went,[cant not have a horn in morroc,think its the only time he uses it],but at the moment he,s with david sorting wiring and plumbing out, he should be home in about 1 hour,so if nobody else gets back to you, i will get him to explain exactly where it is, because we all three have the same hobby. david will owe us a good wash and brush up on the van......

mags


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## havingfun (Oct 31, 2007)

Hi Ray,
if you remove your stearing wheel,you can dismantel the top of your stearing colum,lt's held on by the six alen screws their you will find a brass ring which will have two location lugs that hold it in place on the colum,if these lugs have broken off the ring has a tendency to float around and does't give a possitive conection.Hence the horn won't work.You will need to re-solder new location pins(lugs) securing it back into the two location holes,then re-assemble in the reverse of the way you took it to pieces.
Hope this will help solve you problem!!.
Berenard.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Thanks Bernard.
Will take a look probably tomorrow although we are expecting a howling gale also.

Thanks again Ray.


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## deefordog (Dec 31, 2013)

Ray - anything here on the Fiat forum that might help? http://www.fiatforum.com/search.php?searchid=8286623


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yeah, been there Bernard.
But most are problems with later vans and relays. 

Ray.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

OK Guys n Galls.
Moving forward but still not found the fault.

Steering wheel boss removed and this is where the earth is. It's good and solid earth.
But the other wire (to the horn) is a fairly heavy black one that vanishes into the column loom. But the earth wire at the horn is a white with a stripe much thinner wire.? So obviously there is a join somewhere.

I can't believe my older van has a horn relay like most of the later vans as my horn has a permanent live (+) wire.

So the question is where is the join that changes the return earth wire from a heavy black to a lighter white striped wire.?

Ray.


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## ozwhit (Feb 29, 2008)

hi ray , if you try tapping the horn , its normally clogged up with debris , its behind the passenger side headlight , which im sure you know,every ducato ive had has been the same , worth a try , regards gary


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

ozwhit said:


> hi ray , if you try tapping the horn , its normally clogged up with debris , its behind the passenger side headlight , which im sure you know,every ducato ive had has been the same , worth a try , regards gary


Thanks Gary but that was the first thing I tried and took the horn off.
As I say it's the neg, earth return from the steering wheel to the horn thats broken.

Ray.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Is it worth all the bother of finding and fixing the original Ray?


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

erneboy said:


> Is it worth all the bother of finding and fixing the original Ray?


Probably not Alan.
I like to keep to originality if possible but if it means dismantling too much I will take the easier option and run a new wire to the horn.
But of course that means getting the other end up inside the steering boss somehow.

But again finding another 'window' to do that job inbetween the other dozen jobs that need my attention. Life is never simple today.

Ray.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I'd try to find the old one below the steering column and see if joining it there works Ray.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

David-David, just looking at your fuel gage video, is one of the relays shown under the glove box a horn relay possibly>
I haven't managed to get time to investigate further about my horn problem. I just wondered if you knew which one?

Ray.


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## david-david (Feb 24, 2013)

Hi Ray,

Just been reading through your post and from what I gather, that A653 may also controls the horn (I read lots of things, and a lot of it I disregarded as it wasn't relevant to my problem but I do recall reading things about the horn too)

I don't know if this is correct. My horn works OK.

Coffee dribbling onto that unit seems to cause all sorts of problems. There are 6 wires leading to that unit. Obviously, not all of those wires control the fuel gauge.

I don't know what the unit is called otherwise I would be able to tell you what those six wires control. 

I would try cleaning that unit.

I'm at home right now. I can dismantle that unit again and show you what it looks like inside if that helps?

I'm guessing a good clean will re-establish connections.


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## david-david (Feb 24, 2013)

raynipper said:


> David-David, just looking at your fuel gage video, is one of the relays shown under the glove box a horn relay possibly>
> I haven't managed to get time to investigate further about my horn problem. I just wondered if you knew which one?
> 
> Ray.


I don't know which relay controls the horn.

*ALL *of my relays were drenched in coffee. I cleaned all spade fittings with a Stanley knife and the connections with WD40 and a toothbrush before I got to that A653 unit.

Do you have a coffee while travelling? I bet your units as as filthy as mine.

Disconnect EHU. Take keys out of ignition. Disconnect 'live' on van battery before starting to mess around with the relays.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Nope David. No drinks ever get put on glove box lid at all. I'm not only particular like that I dislike coffee and only have one cup a month to be sociable.

I asked because after finding a heavy black wire at the horn push and a lighter white wire at the actual horn, I assumed the return must go via some contacts to change wire.
I'm really being lazy asking as I should set too and investigate but it needs the van extricating from the barn and we have a howling gale this week.

Ray.


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## david-david (Feb 24, 2013)

I just checked.

I unhooked the 6 wires from the A653 unit and the horn still worked.

The horn doesn't seem to be controlled from that unit.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Thanks David.
I will have to dismantle the panel under the glove box. But after this howling gale has blown itself out.

Ray.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

david-david said:


> *ALL *of my relays were drenched in coffee. I cleaned all spade fittings with a Stanley knife and the connections with WD40 and a toothbrush before I got to that A653 unit.
> .


I hate to pour cold water on things (or even worse, hot flavoured water with a dash of milk.....), but I had read somewhere that WD40 is not good for electrical connections as it leaves an insulating layer like fish oil behind (apparently it is based on that according to some posts....)

I found these rapidly;

http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums...6-never-use-wd-40-electrical-connections.html

http://www.kawasakimotorcycle.org/f...why-not-use-wd-40-your-electrical-system.html

which seems to confirm my memory.....

Sorry if that does not give you any comfort......

Dave


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## david-david (Feb 24, 2013)

Penquin said:


> I hate to pour cold water on things (or even worse, hot flavoured water with a dash of milk.....), but I had read somewhere that WD40 is not good for electrical connections as it leaves an insulating layer like fish oil behind (apparently it is based on that according to some posts....)
> 
> I found these rapidly;
> 
> ...


WD40 works as a cleaning/insulating agent for electrical contacts.

In this scenario, we want to clean the contacts. WD40 is excellent for this job.

If you want to go one step further then obviously you'd want to use IPA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol

I have lots of IPA. I imagine the average person doesn't. These videos are aimed at the DIY'er with limited knowledge and limited tools. I did explain this very clearly in my first videos.

The aim of my videos is to lead people gently into general maintenance. To build confidence. To have a 'can do' attitude.

Asking people to start with materials and products they have never heard of (let alone ever used) is self defeating. They will watch the videos and never attempt to solve problems.

WD40 is absolutely fine is this instance. It works. Everyone will understand it. It is *SAFE* even for a beginner to use.

If you'd like to add some videos with your knowledge I'm sure we would all watch them.

Dave.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Thanks again David. Your videos are so explanatory that I have even managed to remove, clean and get working all my ceiling vents. Plus all the side window blinds.
As you can tell I'm a fair weather worker so the horn just might take a while.

Ray.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

david-david said:


> WD40 is absolutely fine is this instance. It works. Everyone will understand it. It is *SAFE* even for a beginner to use....... snipped....
> 
> If you'd like to add some videos with your knowledge I'm sure we would all watch them.
> 
> Dave.


Thank you for that snide comment, I will *NEVER* bother offering advice against such an obvious know-it-all.

If you *BOTHERED to read *my post which you quoted you will see that all I said was that I had once been told that WD40 is *NOT* good if you put it on electrical contacts and that is confirmed by very many other posts if you bother to search.....

Even the manufacturers of WD40 mention that it leaves a very thin layer of a high molecular mass *OIL* on surfaces and many warnings exist about spraying too much onto electrical contacts - *not sufficient to "wet" the surface is recommended by VERY many users, including the manufacturers.*...

But no, I do not make videos and was simply trying to pass on a warning that I had been given, correctly in many people's opinions.

No snide comments are needed thanks. I am totally familiar with the properties of isopropanol being a part-chemist by profession - it does *NOT *leave a trace of oil behind unlike WD40, which contains 50% aliphatic hydrocarbons and *less than 25% petroleum based oil......
*

Source; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40

I'm out of this thread. Good luck Ray.

Dave


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Well I been an gorne n dunnit now.
All the dash dismantled and still unable to find the offending wire. 
Must try harder or maybe less time being distracted.............................. Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Ask David David for help he seems to know this model quite well.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Ask David David for help he seems to know this model quite well.


Read previous posts Kev..........???

Ray.


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

When I first bought my van, which has the same dash / chassis as yours, 5+ years ago I had the same problem with the horn. I checked all the obvious stuff but was unable to get it to work. As it was under warranty I told Brownhills and they sent me a new horn to see if that would fix it.
It did fix it, to my amazement, but the confusing thing is that when I put the old horn back on it also worked.
At the time I couldn't be bothered to work out what was going on as it all worked but you have to think that the connections under the bonnet at the horn had to be prime suspects.
I've since fitted the same steering wheel as yours with no problems.
It might be worth taking the boss of the column to look at the original horn contacts that sit underneath as I think, from memory, they are not all that robust.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

raynipper said:


> Read previous posts Kev..........???
> 
> Ray.


I was referring to help with the actual wiring problem only, I've been away for a week and not caught up with all the threads yet.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I have been trying to find the horn earth return from the horn push to the actual horn. It seems it goes through a relay, the black one top left in the pic. But none of these wires give me continuity to either the horn or the 'push'.
So I am trying to access the plug strapped to the steering shaft bracket to just run another wire directly to the horn. But of course access is somewhat restrictive and I'm not as flexible as I was in my early years.

Now I have dismantled everything, I need to drive the van out of the barn to be able to access under dash to the left of the steering wheel. I also need good weather, inclination, confidence and motivation.

Ray.


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## BillCreer (Jan 23, 2010)

The cable colours at the horn end of mine are white/black and red/black. If you belled out the white/ black as the earth then did you say that you belled out the contacts at both the column end and the horn end to earth?
The horn works when the ignition is switched off so I can't see that there would be any relays being used.
Don't see why it should be one complete earth cable between the horn and button.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Thanks Bill.
My horn has a permanent live and the other wire is a white with green stripe that in theory goes to the relay but it's not there.
Yes it did work when ign is off. But looking at a schematic wiring diagram for Fiat Ducato shows a relay. Weird I know but pressing the button gives an earth to the relay closing another earth contact? Why I don't know and I only assume it's the black one in the pic.

Yes one contact at the horn push does go to earth but the other heavy black one vanishes into the steering column loom and it's this I will eventually locate and take a new wire to the horn as and when I can access the plug.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

You have a PM Ray


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

havingfun said:


> Hi Ray,
> if you remove your stearing wheel,you can dismantel the top of your stearing colum,lt's held on by the six alen screws their you will find a brass ring which will have two location lugs that hold it in place on the colum,if these lugs have broken off the ring has a tendency to float around and does't give a possitive conection.Hence the horn won't work.You will need to re-solder new location pins(lugs) securing it back into the two location holes,then re-assemble in the reverse of the way you took it to pieces.
> Hope this will help solve you problem!!.
> Berenard.


Bernard, you were spot on. Why didn't I listen to you more.
I had checked the contacts in the horn boss but didn't realise there were the slip rings under the next section of the steering wheel assembly. It did take some getting to but only after I had dismantled the dash, wiring loom and sockets underneath.

Thanks to all contributions and suggestions. Sadly your pm hasn't arrived yet Kev.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

raynipper said:


> Bernard, you were spot on. Why didn't I listen to you more.
> I had checked the contacts in the horn boss but didn't realise there were the slip rings under the next section of the steering wheel assembly. It did take some getting to but only after I had dismantled the dash, wiring loom and sockets underneath.
> 
> Thanks to all contributions and suggestions. Sadly your pm hasn't arrived yet Kev.
> ...


No worries Ray, just an alternative offer of help, have you checked notifications under the blue bar.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Blue bar Kev.??? 
I checked my pm messages and so far ziltch.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

raynipper said:


> Blue bar Kev.???
> I checked my pm messages and so far ziltch.
> 
> Ray.


Blue bar is where you have active and new posts etc.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

And where do I find this Blue Bar Kev.?

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Here ya go Ray.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Well I'l be dawg gawned.
First time I ever looked in there. I always look at PMs and respond. Now this has confused me.
Sorry Key but yes it is fixed now. Thanks for trying.

Ray.
p.s. not sure I will ever look at NOTIFICATIONS when PMs usually do.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

raynipper said:


> Well I'l be dawg gawned.
> First time I ever looked in there. I always look at PMs and respond. Now this has confused me.
> Sorry Key but yes it is fixed now. Thanks for trying.
> 
> ...


No Worries Ray, Peter (Listerdiesel) who is on the self build site but has stopped posting on here a while back, suggested the following, I post it in case it helps others, he also send his regards to you.

"There are a couple of things to look at.

There will be a steering column 'coupler' that carries the signals from the rotating steering wheel to the static steering column.

The feed to the horn is normally live and the horn button gives the earth to make the horn sound.

Lack of a decent connection/earth on the column is one problem, the coupler may be faulty so the horn signal never gets to the switch and so on.

See if there is 12V on one of the horn terminals, then earth the other terminal. That should sound the horn.

If there is only one terminal then the horn body is earthed by the mounting bolt and 12V is fed from the steering wheel, not a ground/earth.

Peter"


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Thanks Kev.
Just penned a good long reply and lost it.!!!!!
But basically yes to Peter's points. If I hadn't gone off on a wild goose chase of my own making looking for a broken wire, I might have twigged Bernard's suggestion was right.

I had noticed Peter was not around but as he sometimes went off to shows in Germany didn't think any more.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

raynipper said:


> Thanks Kev.
> Just penned a good long reply and lost it.!!!!!
> But basically yes to Peter's points. If I hadn't gone off on a wild goose chase of my own making looking for a broken wire, I might have twigged Bernard's suggestion was right.
> 
> ...


He just had enough of the squabbling, he's on MHOwners though should anyone need his advice, He's going into Hospital on Monday, re his heart problem.


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## david-david (Feb 24, 2013)

Penquin said:


> Thank you for that snide comment, I will *NEVER* bother offering advice against such an obvious know-it-all.
> 
> If you *BOTHERED to read *my post which you quoted you will see that all I said was that I had once been told that WD40 is *NOT* good if you put it on electrical contacts and that is confirmed by very many other posts if you bother to search.....
> 
> ...


Dave,

Sincere apologies!

I've been away for a few days and just had chance to read what I typed.

I left the computer to see if I could locate a relay for Ray and my phone 'pinged' with a new message from MHF. It was your message. I hurriedly typed my reply.

It does sound massively aggressive and ar5ey.

Totally my fault.

It wasn't meant as an aggressive reply. I don't claim to have all the answers but I know a lot of you guys do....or at least way more knowledge than me!

What I was trying to say was -

_WD40 is a good cleaning agent for this sort of thing. Ideally, you'd want to use IPA but if you haven't got it to hand, WD40 will work as long as you clean it up, and off - with a paper towel.

Dave, I'd really like to see your videos. Get some posted! You have lots of knowledge to share and it took me two days to fathom out this A653 unit.
_

If you (or anyone else!) gets a short sharp reply from me with too many line spacings and no reply, chances are, I'm doing it from my phone.

*Lesson to self - don't post from daft phone.*

Sorry Dave, it wasn't a slant at you.


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## david-david (Feb 24, 2013)

raynipper said:


> Bernard, you were spot on. Why didn't I listen to you more.
> I had checked the contacts in the horn boss but didn't realise there were the slip rings under the next section of the steering wheel assembly. It did take some getting to but only after I had dismantled the dash, wiring loom and sockets underneath.
> 
> Thanks to all contributions and suggestions. Sadly your pm hasn't arrived yet Kev.
> ...


My dad (havingfun) is a bit of dark horse 

He doesn't post much about technical stuff but he has an intimate knowledge of the Hobby750. This is where I go when I have a problem. It's the reason my first motorhome was a Hobby750. Same colour, same model, same layout, same everything!

He's upgraded their van way beyond anything I could do!


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## havingfun (Oct 31, 2007)

Hi Ray,glad you have sorted it out.
I Don't need a trumpet .
David has a way of doing it for me.
Thanks Bernard.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Thanks again Bernard.
And all this time I was thinking David was the clever one. Must defer to age, just hope our David thinks like yours.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

We'll just go to the Yoda in future then, I like "Having fun" sounds like one of those supposed red indian names, like 'two dogs sh****ng', so offence intended


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