# Your Driving Tech'...Brakes or Gears? now inc. Snow Driving



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi All

I read sometime this week about how someone ran into the back of another vehicle because he did not realise that the vehicle in front was slowing down.

The reason given was that "contrary to todays best advice from driving instructors" the front vehicle driver was slowing down approaching a junction by using his gears....and so...no braking lights were seen by the following driver.

I was taught to drive and for that matter race....bikes and cars, by using my gears to slow down in a controlled way...something I still do...does this make me a bad driver?

Mike

P.S. Go to the end of thread for "Snow Driving"


----------



## 88933 (May 10, 2005)

*Brakes or Gears*

Hi Spykal, I was taught much the same as yourself many many moons ago, and use the gears to beginslowing down, the only difference I make is to blip the brake pedal in between gear changes to hopefully indicate I am slowing to following traffic, I`ve driven for 52 years now and still have a clean licence, so I believe you and I must be doing something right.

Mike


----------



## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Mike , I was taught the same way as you, however No.1 son was taught to approach a junction/roundabout on the brakes, and select req'd gear when ready to go.

Both systems work, and it doesn't make for a bad driver!, method 2 used in the scenario you read would possibly have prevented a rear end shunt due to brake lamps being lit up, but then again we don't know how close was the following driver to the vehicle in front?

M&D


----------



## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

The driver following was to blame, brake lights or no brake lights, he should have anticipated the other car would slow down aproaching the junction .. no excuses ..


----------



## peejay (May 10, 2005)

> I was taught to drive and for that matter race....bikes and cars, by using my gears to slow down in a controlled way...something I still do...does this make me a bad driver?


Absolutely not Mike,

When i was taught to drive in the RAF it was always drummed into me to use the gears to slow you down, a more efficient way than putting too much reliance upon brakes in that era and especially when going down hils to avoid brake fade.

Nowadays the emphasis is more on fuel economy and braking systems are much more efficient, so when you are taught now, as far as i know you brake it down in the gear you are in then select the appropriate lower gear before pulling away missing two maybe three gears in the process.

I tend to stick to how i was taught and use my gears but occasionally use the braking method if i have to slow up quickly.

Agree 100% with jim, the fact that there are no brakelights to warn you is no excuse. Anticipation and keeping sufficient distance between you and the vehicle in front according to raod conditions is the only way to prevent a rear end shunt.

One lad at work was reprimanded for running into the back of a vehicle and simply couldn't understand what he'd done wrong explaining that 'it wasn'y my fault, the car in front stopped too quickly, there was nothing I could do about it!'. :wink:

pete.


----------



## Tansy (May 11, 2005)

Gears are for going and Brakes are for slowing!

Modern vehicles have much better braking systems on them than vehicles built in the seventies or even eighties, and although there are times when going down the gears is acceptable, generally you should just brake, and match the speed to the gear. Remember, if you only change down the box to slow down, firstly no brake lights will show to the driver behind, thereby giving him/her a later reaction time to your braking, which could result in a rear end shunt, and secondly, you will be "coasting", i.e. have no engine braking as you will be dropping the clutch as you change every gear.

Another, but worse reason for tail end shunting, is the fact that too many drivers are driving too close to the car in front. If everybody kept to the "two second rule", there would be less accidents. As a driving instructor, this is a subject that really annoys me. I even have a sign on the back of my tuition car telling drivers behind to keep their distance, but do they?. I think some 90% of the driving population cannot read!!!!!!!!


----------



## Motorhomersimpson (May 9, 2005)

Last year I had to rethink, like Dave, teaching my daughter to drive in combination with school of motoring, just could not and will not get my head around approaching junctions ETC on the brakes alone.

I did query this with her instructor, although I had a good idea why they did this, his answer " brakes today are far more reliable and effective than when I learned to drive". Okay I agree with this in principal, but after my daughter passed, I encouraged her to select the gear before the junction or hazard, that way the car is more controllable.

MHS...Rob


----------



## peejay (May 10, 2005)

> If everybody kept to the "two second rule",


The lad i referred to in my post tried the 2 second rule, he got to 'one' and hit the car in front. :roll: :lol:

pete.


----------



## camoyboy (May 9, 2005)

Driving a Fiat, I use the gearbox as little as possible as we all know they are not the strongest of gearboxes out there!! 
It is also alot cheaper to replace worn brake pads than a worn gearbox. 
As driving instruction is part of my job I have adapted to the brake and select correct gear for reduced speed senario, plus I do a bit of heel and toe as well when doing performance driving.
As someone else said there is no right or wrong, observation is the key to good driving, and keeping a safe distance from the vehicle in front allows you to see alot more.
Colin


----------



## Mat7 (May 15, 2005)

The modern Phrase is ..........

"Gears are for going.... and Brakes are for slowing!!!"

I look at it this way, brake pads are cheap in comparison to gearboxes and clutches, learn your gear box and change gear to match your road speed once you have attaind the correct speed.

Using "brake down Change down technique" is smoother than changing down indvidual gears but is not a replacment for poor forward anticpation and braking when not needed. ie charging up to a set of trafic lights that are red and slaming on the anchors at the last minute!

Modern brakes are so much better than they used to be... let them do there job and let the engine / gearbox do its job.

cheers for now
Matt  8O  8O
P.S. but on long hills I would let the engine take some of the strain as not to let things get out of control :roll: :wink:


----------



## 95405 (Jun 10, 2005)

Using the gears to slow a vehicle is a no-no in the modern way of driver training. Yes, it's done all the time, but it's not the Roadcraft (Police driving manual) or the IAM method.

At the approach to any hazard, you reduce speed by braking (or de-cellerating), then when you are ready to proceed select the appropriate gear and continue.

Approaching a roundabout you may well brake to a complete stop from top gear. That's the way it's done.

Can My Safety Be Given Away (acronym to remember the sequence)

Course, Mirrors, Signals, Brake (or reduce speed) Gear, Accellerate

Only one action is done at a time, braking and changing gear at the same time isn't a part of the sequence.

I'm talking purely about safe road driving - track behaviour is something else.


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

The big problem with going down through the gears to slow is, because of the differential, you're often only braking on only one wheel! If you use your brakes, you have balanced braking on all four wheels. While most people who slow using gears, get away with this most of the time, there are occasions when the vehicle will lose traction on one or both of the 'driven/slowing' wheels (mainly on wet roads or loose surfaces, but also at high speed) and loss of control is the result (a skid).

Braking down to the appropriate speed before a hazard with both hands on the wheel, and only then quickly snicking it into the correct gear, negotiating the hazard and accelerating away is accepted as the safest method. Continually depressing the clutch, taking a hand off the wheel to 'stir the 'box', maintaining correct throttle for the new gear is not the safest way to approach a hazard. Yes, you'll succeed 999 time out of 1,000, but those odd occasions when "something happens" when you're in the middle of a gear change (you are approaching a hazard after all) can leave you disadvantaged and possibly not fully in control at that vital moment.

Couple these two reasons together and the Police Manual of Car Control ("Roadcraft", a Home Office manual) has got it right. All Police Advanced drivers are taught this method. :wink:


----------



## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Totally agree with the brakes being the correct method of slowing down, however an exception is on long steep downhill gradients where brake fade due to overheating is a distinct possibility. 
Selecting a lower gear is much safer and advised on road signs.


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Yes, you're absolutely right, Jim. Roadcraft even says "Remember the value of engaging a lower gear at an early stage in a descent".

Also, matching the gear to minor variations in road speed is also correct.

What we're talking about here, though, is actually slowing a vehicle on the approach to a hazard.


----------



## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

Quote Barry and Sue - "Couple these two reasons together and the Police Manual of Car Control ("Roadcraft", a Home Office manual) has got it right. All Police Advanced drivers are taught this method."

Probably why there has been such a large increase in 'Polaccs' in recent years. I totally disagree with this new method of driving you cannot keep full control of a vehicle that is in too high a gear for the prevailing conditions.

Thats my 'twopennyworth' anyway .


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Sorry Paul, but the reason for the appalling increase in 'Polaccs' (accidents involving a Police vehicle) is economies within the Police Service have resulted in the closure of driving schools (that were probably among the best in the world) and general dumbing-down of the formerly high standards of Police driving. Police Drivers no longer have the time spent on their tuition, and we are all seeing the result. I understand that this situation is now causing some concern, so they may reinvent the wheel and start opening up Police Driving Schools to teach properly again!

And I'm afraid that, not only can you keep full and perfect control of a vehicle that is slowing on the brakes to walking speed while still in top gear (by merely dipping the clutch at the appropriate moment), but you have also kept both hands on the wheel all the time you've been braking.

I'll take you out some time and demonstrate just how good and safe it is!


----------



## 95405 (Jun 10, 2005)

I don't think it's so new really. Roadcraft manuals in the early 1970s describe this method and I think The System of Car Control incorporating this basic procedure for all hazards was formulated and taught much earlier than that.


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

You're right LaM - it's not new at all. I believe the original "System" was developed in the 1920s/1930s by Sir Malcolm Campbell among others, advising the Home Office on how to control a vehicle under all circumstances. The reason? Because of the enormous number of Polaccs when Police started to really use the new-fangled "motor car"! 8O 

Although slight modifications have been made to techniques (I don't think they now teach double de-clutching, and things like that) it's remarkable how little has changed.


----------



## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

That is not neccessarily the view of the police that I know.
Also if you are talking of 'dipping the clutch' you are actually coasting and therefore having less control. I have friends who are IAM trained and hold thier badge and even they disagree with this method.
I'll decline the offer of the trip out as I would not feel safe with your method of driving thanks all the same. Not good and not safe at all in my view.


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

We'll agree to disagree, Paul. I can't answer for your Police pals and IAM members, but both should abide by Roadcraft - if they're not then they're wrong. :wink:

Dipping the clutch when at walking speed to engage first gear isn't coasting, any more than you're coasting when changing any other gear.


----------



## olley (May 1, 2005)

Just a comment on the voting choices, just because you have an autobox does not mean you cannot slow down using the gears. And you would certainly use the gears going down a hill.

olley


----------



## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

Yep I can handle agree to disagree, but to say that my friends are wrong (one of whom is a police driving instructor) that is only according to an outdated method devised by some half bake 70 years ago and critisised at the time by many of the new bread of sporting motorists.


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

BarryandSue said:


> I'll take you out some time and demonstrate just how good and safe it is!


It is so good to differ so I would like to take you out and show you just how good, safe and very fast my way is. At all times I will be in complete control and ready for any eventuality. It will not matter whether I need to slow even more or accelerate away rapidly. I will be able do it in a far smother and more effective way than the "Brake to slow and Gears to go" crowd. But then I suppose to teach the young things that are learning to drive today to use this "always in the right gear" method would involve even more hours at the driving school. And no don't tell me that the "Brake to slow and Gears to go" method puts you in the right gear for the situation, there will always be that delay while you disengage your grip from the wheel to get to the gear lever to change down, and as for dipping the clutch and rolling...... "Poop-poop!" "Poop-poop!"

Mike


----------



## 95405 (Jun 10, 2005)

Braking to a standstill in the gear you have been travelling in, top gear perhaps, I found was a bit of a fundamental change to the method I was presumably taught. I say presumably, I can't remember being told to do it the change down way but I passed my test and between then and taking the IAM and RoSPA tests not long after had to re-train myself to do it the 'System' way.

It's second nature now - I can't drive any other way, and it's never a problem; I do not believe my vehicle is 'out of control' at any time. 

I have heard anecdotal tales that the Police method is now more relaxed and even crossing hands at the steering wheel might be tolerated - I've seen 'em do it on those tv police driving documentaries. Not crossing hands was one of the things that the 'sporting' motorists didn't like.


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Police driving instruction is founded on Roadraft, and the IAM was created on the basis of bringing Roadcraft to ordinary drivers. Examiners are all holders of Police Class 1 Driving Certificates.

I'm sure you've misunderstood comments by your Police Driving Instructor chum. Have another chat with him about this post, and see what his comments are.

I'll confess  that I'm a Police Class 1 Driver, and a member of IAM.


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

I surrender! We're never going to be able to convince each other, are we? :lol: 

Just drive safely - it's a dangerous world out there!


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

olley said:


> Just a comment on the voting choices, just because you have an autobox does not mean you cannot slow down using the gears. And you would certainly use the gears going down a hill.
> 
> olley


Hi Olley

Sorry I did not get the voting quite right, of course it is possible to down shift in an auto. In fact we have a car with an auto box that does allow us to choose the gear we are in so that a drop down a gear is possible to assist braking and in fact in an automatic fitted with this drop down button on the stick it becomes an even smoother way of slowing down...just a pity they did not think of putting it on the steering wheel where it would have meant we could keep both hands on the wheel at all times.

mike


----------



## olley (May 1, 2005)

Just another point in this to brake or gear discussion, are not some of the new hybrid cars (petrol electric) going to be fitted with retro-generative braking systems to improve fuel economy? This would of course necessitate using the gears to slow down.


----------



## eddied (May 9, 2005)

Well, this thread has completely destroyed my confidence after 48 years clean licence! Of course when I took my test in an old Austin Gypsy, it didn't actually have any brakes!
saluti, eddied


----------



## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

My 'sporting motorist' neighbour recently assured me that he is among the top 10% of drivers - wasn't able to tell me how he arrived at that view though.

Since then, to his credit, he has embarked on some IAM training. Told me the other day that he is staggered by the speed and car control of his IAM Instructor who incidentally happens to be a Police Class 1 driver. Not bad for an old poop using some old fashioned half bake system apparently.

Double de-clutching eh! Takes me back. How many people who stir the gearbox do so with a sustained change - another old-fashioned method, kind to clutch and gearbox. Some of these old things were developed for smoothness and mechanical sympathy as well as control and are still relevent today.

Nobby


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Not to mention "cadence braking" for when you "really" need to stop......ABS does not always work when you need it most..............."Poop Poop"

Mike


----------



## badger (May 9, 2005)

I'm sure that you are all excellent drivers......says he keeping well and truly in the middle........but my position is, in an emergency you dont get time to change down......but for most other slowing down situations I would prefer to use a combination of gears and brakes depending on the "severity" of the slowing down required.........Well I know what I mean anyhow.


----------



## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

Now that I do agree with badger.


----------



## zulurita (May 9, 2005)

Phew! That was certainly interesting reading!

Like many I was taught to use my gears, be aware of my surroundings and anticipate the actions of other drivers. Consequently I was always aware of the driver in front slowing down even if there was NO brake lights initially!
I can see the relevance of both points of view, but I dare say putting brakes on first was brought in because people didn't pay attention when driving and therefore often didn't notice the person in front slowing until it was too late!
I can remember some years ago having an accident where I had signalled in good time to turn right, then had to stop because of traffic coming from the other direction, indicators still signalling right, I had watched to make sure the car behind had noticed, he had & passed on my left I was just about to turn right when the car behind him went straight into the back of us! He was too busy talking to his girlfriend!! My indicators were still flashing!


----------



## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

8O I learned to drive while in the Army in Singapore. We used Bedford 3 Ton trucks. Even though they were fitted with syncromesh we still double declutched to change gear. This came in handy when I was handed an Austin 1 ton K9 with a crash gearbox. That you had to double de-clutch. I have always driven using the gears and brakes together. Not necessarily just to slow the vehicle. But also to be in the right gear for all situations. I do not double d-clutch anymore. But it took year's to get out of the automatic way of doing so. I now drive an automatic but still engage a lower gear when decending steep hills and mouintains. Just as I sometimes override the automatic to engage a lower gear for acceleration up a gradient. With regards running into the back of a vehicle that is stationary without brake lights showing. Once again I have been in a situation similar. It has been mentioned about being prepared for all eventualities? I approached a bend (driving in Spain) with a Truck convoy on the inside of the corner coming towards me. Nice Sunny day. I hadn't seen a vehicle on my side of the road for around 10 miles. At the exit of the corner when I could finally see around it. Was a long line of stationary traffic. No brake lights showing. But who had time to think about things like that at 60 mph? I braked and locked uo the front wheels (50 yard skid mark) and made a veering manouvre over to the cycle path. I missed 8 or 9 cars (probably would have killed several) but there was a stupid Renault works van parked partially over inot the cycle path. THAT you cannot be prepared for. I scraped right down the side of the van. I was not a happy chappy. But I was glad. Even though virtually unprepared. I had not caused more damage or possible loss of life.


----------



## olley (May 1, 2005)

Does anybody know how HGV drivers are taught to drive?


----------



## peejay (May 10, 2005)

In a similar way as cars now i think, relying more on brakes than gears. Goes against the grain in my book, relying totally on the brakes to slow down 40+ tons of vehicle, on the few occasions I drive HGV's (or should i say LGV's) now i use a combination of both with a heavy bias towards using gears.

pete.


----------



## 95405 (Jun 10, 2005)

Both navigator and I remarked how little engine braking our Fiat 2.3 has - it seems to continue barely reducing speed on the level when you lift off.

Is there any way of finding out what 'other' method the 2 posters use ? Does it involve the use of an anchor ? A brick on a rope ? A suitable wall or vehicle ?


----------



## olley (May 1, 2005)

In my 7 ton Rv i usually find that running over a few european motorhomes slows me down nicely, unfortunately it does mean i have to clean it more often!

olley


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Like bugs on the windscreen, eh, olley? :wink: :lol:


----------



## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

olley said:


> In my 7 ton Rv i usually find that running over a few european motorhomes slows me down nicely, unfortunately it does mean i have to clean it more often!
> 
> olley


 8O Or brand new Puegot 406's make a good stopper for failed brakes.


----------



## olley (May 1, 2005)

No barry they only reach the top of the bumper


----------



## 93498 (May 1, 2005)

Hi all,

I began my time on the tarmac with motorcycles, and due to motorcycles having true sequential gearboxes it's impossible to go up or down more than one gear when stationary. For that reason, a motorcyclist *must* go down through the gears while braking or would end up being stuck in maybe fifth gear and unable to pull away when the lights change.

It was only natural to me, when I began driving cars, to do the same. It also means that I am always in the correct gear for any given road speed.

It amuses (irritates) me to see people slowing down to a junction/traffic lights using only brakes, only to fumble for the neccesary gear (usually selecting the wrong one) at 15 or so miles per hour when the lights change back to green e.t.c.

Changing down to the next suitable gear as road speed decreases ensures that this situation does not occur, and all that is required is pressure on the accelerator followed by subsequent up-changes.

To suggest that one should not go down through the gears (whilst braking) is as daft (to me) as suggesting that one should not change up through the gears whilst accelerating.

Incidentally, during my driving lessons (of which I had six before passing my test on the first attempt) I was told to use the brakes only. I did this only until I passed the test, then continued to do it the 'proper' way.

I drive an average of 500-600 miles per weeks in my company van, drive a motorhome, ride a motorcycle, drive a car occasionally, have never killed a gearbox, have never rear-ended anyone (with or without ABS) and have also worked as a motorcycle instructor, so no amount of bulls**t about how good modern brakes are will ever make me do it any other way.

Stepping off the soapbox now...

Phil


----------



## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Phil,

I haven't been following this thread, but your post did prompt me to say there seems a lot of inconsistent dogma surrounding this whole area. 

For example, selecting the correct gear for one's roadspeed when decelerating seems frowned upon in certain circles, and if the clutch is not fully engaged each time doubly frowned upon, yet all this is doing is, as you rightly point out, positioning oneself to be able to react quickly and in full control of both braking AND accelerating, should the need arise. 

To me this seems no different in principle to the practice, accepted in the same circles, of "covering" the brake pedal with one's foot without actually depressing it, in case it is needed quickly.

Incidentally, in all the training I have received at work, the best by a long way was that by the IAM for staff who drove over a threshold annual number of miles for work purposes. It remains fresh and in daily use every time I get behind a wheel. Just common sense, but no less effective for that.

Dave


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi Dave
its not really "inconsistent dogma" it's just that "the right gear for the speed and situation" is the "right way " and anything else is just "dumbed down driving" a sort of Sun readers version of the skill and panache that we 70%combine into a beautiful flowing driving style. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Mike


----------



## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

On a rainy evening in the Dordogne not long after I got my van and eager to canvas the views of another Sevel user about the long-legged fifth gear, I spoke to an old bloke about his driving technique in his beloved Peugeot Autosleeper 2.5TD.

"What speed do you have to be down to before you'll shift out of fifth and drive in fourth?" I enquired.
With a straight face he looked at me and (imagine Coventry accent) said, "I don't. She's strong as an ox. She'll pull from nearly standstill in fifth. I can go nearly all day without changing gear over here."

I often wonder if his fifth gear teeth have survived, not to mention his own.

Nobby


----------



## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

I might be right with a diesel. I once drove 150 miles with just 4th gear in an Autohomes Frontier Transit petrol engined vehicle. Not through choice mind you.


----------



## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

Yep - sorry! 5 speed Sevel drivers will appreciate it more.

Nobby


----------



## Malc (May 9, 2005)

Taught to drive with crash box (double de-clutch) and vacumn brakes! 
Try to brake on a long decline with vacumn brakes and you will soon have to change gears to slow you down!
Still D D Clutch, smoother and far more friendly to the clutch and gearbox IMHO, just a habit of years.
We train all our drivers at work `defensive driving` anticipation is the key.
regards Malc


----------



## Mat7 (May 15, 2005)

Some one asked about HGV's

Well I drive HGV's and I use Brake down change down in that too, 

However in the truck I use it has a two stage automatic exhaust brake, which is also termed as a Zero Wear brake, I like to use the exhaust brake as I find 44 tons pushing you forward even with a 14ltr V6 will not slow it on its own very readily. However it will only come on if you are off the throttle and clutch, it works in conjunction with the brakes, and cuts out as soon as you touch the clutch / throttle or the engine revs are very low, ie just about idle speed, you can hear the exhaust brake cut out letting you know it is the optimal speed for you to change gear. The truck I drive has a "tip tronic" gearbox, and at the "tip" of a lever and a press of the clutch the gearbox will automatically select the correct gear (out of 16) for the road speed. Taking the guess work out of it completely, another feature for the truck is that it simply will not allow you to select a gear which is "out of range" or would over rev the engine. 
The brakes them selves are tremdously powerful, a careless press of the pedal will see you kissing the windscreen no problem!

cheers for now
Matt 8O :? 8) :roll: :roll:


----------



## 91929 (May 1, 2005)

Was taught by an ex Tank transporter driver, (Doble declutch to numbers 1,2,3,) then by a fire engine driver and had an ex bus driver as accompanying driver on my way to work
they taught me to change down unless driving too fast then brake first

Later our firm ran an advanced driving course run by the police The police insruction is to change down into a suitable gear so that you are in a position to be able to drive away from ant incident - In other words you are in complete control of the vehicle 

Do tou change down at the top of long hills???????????


----------



## Mat7 (May 15, 2005)

PamNPete said:


> Do tou change down at the top of long hills???????????


In the case of the hill of course you would change down at the top of a long down hill, I let the exhuast brake do alot of the work on long grades, but stopping in genral for hazzards and juctions etc, is different because they are not all at the bottom of a long hill!

cheers
Matt


----------



## 95405 (Jun 10, 2005)

Back in the early 1970s my employer bought a new BMC flat bed lorry which turned out to have a crash box. Like that one in Heartbeat but bigger. I was the lucky one and drove it for a while on short-hop city deliveries (no hills).

The engine was very slow to build up revs and needed one hell of a blip on the down change to engage a lower gear - not so much a blip as floor the throttle, wait 5 seconds or so for the revs to build up, engage gear . . . and yes, I'm pretty sure I did work down through the 'box. Was it necessary ? Probably not, but I cut my double de-clutch teeth on it. Maybe it did reduce the brake load a bit. All that time I spent free-wheeling though.


----------



## fdhadi (May 9, 2005)

The leading vehicle would be partly at fault.
Before slowing down or stopping, you should use the MSM routine.
M = Mirrors ( so you can see whats happening behind you and react on what is seen).

S = Signal ( this case being the brakes / lights to warn following vehicles that you are slowing down or intending to stop).

M = Manoeuver ( this is broken down into 3 parts, PSL).
P = Position
S = Speed
L = Look

Modern breaking systems and gearboxes are much more efficient, aided with the help of abs / traction control and better tyres.
Block changing, ie 5th to 3rd / 4th to 2nd / 3rd to 1st when slowing down or even 1st to 3rd / 2nd to 4th / 3rd to 5th when speeding up is quite common nowadays.
I personally would not drive a car without brake lights, which effectively you are doing if only using the gears to slow down.

Regards
Frank


----------



## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

I am working as a driving instructor at the moment, I am required to teach the DSA method which is to use the brakes to slow and the gears to go.

In a modern car there is no need to change down through the gears when slowing down. I teach to approach roundabouts from 70mph in 5th gear and select an appropriate gear for the junction.

So we may actually stop the vehicle in 5th gear, then select first gear to pull away.

In a modern car there is little benifit changing down through the gears whilst slowing down.

On a long down hill run, slow down to the appropriate speed with the brakes then select an appropriate gear, then cover the brakes and make use of engine braking.

When driving older vehicles with less efficient brakes then changing down through the gears is not a problem. You cannot currently fail a driving test for changing down through the gears when slowing down.

I would suggest however that it is a better to use the gears to assist in slowing down rather than simply not use the brakes at all.

Part of the MSPSL routine as mentioned above is SIGNAL and the signal for slowing down is the brakes lights unless you want to stick your arm out the window as per the highway code.










You would fail a driving test for failing to give a signal when it is required, or giving a misleading signal. So you could fail a driving test for changing down through the gears but not signalling to following traffic that you are slowing down.


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi 

I change down, at all times making sure I am in the correct gear for the speed, but use the brakes to slow the vehicle. Hate to be behind vehicles when they use Gears only.

Being in the correct gear cannot hurt, if the brakes were to fail, or if you need to apply power to the wheels its always there if you are in the correct gear for the speed.


----------



## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

A modern car can be slowed to 30mph in 5th gear without the need to change gear at all and the clutch is kept engaged at all times. The clutch only needs to be pressed in either to prevent the car stalling below 25mph or in order to change gear.

A driver should be able to gauge which gear to select for the speed of the vehicle. I teach to select 2nd if carrying on or 1st if stopping. Very rarely 3rd gear is required eg very large roundabouts.

I do discuss the use of gears to slow down in an emergency ie brake failure, but not for normal driving.

The danger of using gears on a front wheel drive vehicle are that the front wheels are being slowed using the engine and the rear wheels are not so you could induce a skid. The brake pedal applies the brakes to all four wheels and has balancing systems to ensure the brakes are applied equally on all 4 wheels.

Changing down 5 4 3 2 1 also required the driver to remove the hand from the wheel whilst slowing down which reduces the amount of control the driver has on the steering.


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Red_Dragon_Bus said:


> In a modern car there is no need to change down through the gears when slowing down. I teach to approach roundabouts from 70mph in 5th gear and select an appropriate gear for the junction.


I don't get to use that manouver round here much...we don't have any dual carriageways that lead onto roundabouts............but I know what you mean :wink:

I like the picture of the slowing down hand signal...... I had one very long all day lesson before my test ( the only lesson I had!) with a friend who at the time was one of only two driving instuctors in our area...he was a bit of a comedian and while making sure that I knew the "I am slowing" hand signal he did comment that if I ever saw a woman giving it it was more likely that she was drying her fingernail polish :lol:

mike


----------



## badger (May 9, 2005)

So Red dragon bus.......sounds like you are an experienced driving instructor?

Sorry but I still dont get it......if the only time you teach to use gears for slowing is in an emergency??? 

So what about driving in slippery conditions???
and who gets time to think of which gear to get in in EMERGENCY.



I may have missunderstood in which case I appologise..........but if I havn't....remind me not to get a lift with one of your pupils :lol: 
"JUST MY OPINION you UNDERSTAND"


----------



## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

badger said:


> So Red dragon bus.......sounds like you are an experienced driving instructor?
> 
> Sorry but I still dont get it......if the only time you teach to use gears for slowing is in an emergency???
> 
> ...


No I discuss the use of gears to slow the vehicle down in the event of brake failure. ie when the brakes are not working at all. If you teach someone the only way to stop the car is to use the brakes then they would not know that it is actually possible to slow down using the gears.

The DSA set the sylabus and every driving instructor in the UK is required to teach the same. So all learners are now taught to use the brakes to slow down rather than the gears.


----------



## badger (May 9, 2005)

HMMnn I'm very glad I had quality lessons.....My daughter is learning to drive at the moment and I refused to teach her as she would pick up any bad habits I had, I said she must learn with a professional.......
I think I may give her a few extra curricular tips to enhance her skills.


----------



## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

Badger I teach the syllabus it doesnt necessarily mean I agree with it :wink: 

Once your daughter has passed her test and demonstrated the DSA methods to the examiner feel free to assist her in gaining driving experience.


----------



## fdhadi (May 9, 2005)

Remember !!!!!!!!

M
S
M
P
S
L

Regards

Frank D Horton ADI Car / Hgv all classes (fully qualified)

fdhadi


----------



## 95405 (Jun 10, 2005)

Red_Dragon_Bus says: "You cannot currently fail a driving test for changing down through the gears when slowing down."

Interesting - Ripley says you can if I understand him correctly

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2002/02/08/emrip09.xml


----------



## 88752 (May 9, 2005)

What a lot of R******. Things change but some people live in the past. Gears for going brakes for stopping, no discussion.

and THAT is MY 2pennyworth!


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Frankly, I'm terrified that it seems a large number of drivers here are staggering into hazards, busy declutching to change endless gears, only one hand on the steeringwheel each time, with the engine slowing the poor vehicle via only one or two tyres gripping the road surface 8O

But why??? There's a far safer method than this, but you're just being stubborn - "I've always done it like this and never had an accident!" You're an accident waiting to happen, my friends.

You have brakes, which operate all four wheels as a balanced set; four tyres gripping the road surface, possibly with the extra safety of ABS - so use them! Both hands on the wheel all the time, until one quick gear change and away - it's all so simple, slick and safe!

When you've used your brakes and reduced the speed of your vehicle to match that required by the hazard (from 50mph down to, say, a 20mph corner) select the correct gear and accelerate through the hazard appropriately. It's so simple I just cannot see where the controversy lies! Just because you've always gone down through the gears doesn't make it the best, safest or most desirable method - it just means you haven't got into difficulties doing it... yet.

If you still have doubts about all this, try your gear-slowing method at max permitted speed on a wet road. You will eventually come unstuck... literally! Just don't do it when I (or anyone else) is around!

Read again the link provided by LordatManor
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2002/02/08/emrip09.xml


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Barry

*Brakes for stopping*, but matching the gears as you slow down, cant see a problem.

I *can see a problem *if you are slowing and then need power to the wheels, left in fifth by the time you realise you need power, you then need to change, it could be to late.


----------



## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Well said Barry, 
what is it they say about old dogs and new tricks :roll:


----------



## peejay (May 10, 2005)

One other thing that concerns me with this braking method and correct me if i'm wrong.

Say you're travelling along at 55/60 in 5th, approach a hazard then brake right down to say 15 mph before dipping the clutch and selecting the appropriate gear, i'm thinking that travelling at such a slow speed in such a high gear will put an unacceptable strain on the gearbox/engine/drivetrain.

pete.


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

How many times has it been vital that sudden, instantaneous acceleration has been required on the approach to a hazard that you've supposedly been constantly assessing? It's far more likely that you'll need to suddenly reduce your speed even further. This need for "instant acceleration" is, IMHO, pure myth.

While I accept that there are rare occasions when it's desirable to be able to accelerate away from 'a situation', it's far more likely that you'll be needing to brake more heavily when approaching a hazard.

Get on the brakes, and leave the pudding-stirer alone!


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

No, Pete. It doesn't work quite like that. It's all a matter of practice (like everything in driving) and timing. There's no strain placed on the drivetrain, and there should be no coasting either. 

The clutch is dipped and the gear selected (say second gear) at just the right speed - it takes maybe a couple of seconds to take a nice, smooth gearchange (not a hurried, 'bang-through-the-box'!). The whole operation is very smooth and must not permit the engine to stutter in too high a gear for the road speed. I know what you're getting at, but it's difficult to reassure you - much easier to demonstrate (but you might be like Mike 'Spykal' and be of too nervous a disposition!  )


----------



## badger (May 9, 2005)

I think people are making too much of this, it sounds as though its either one method or the other.
In practice, those who learned the craft of driving more years ago that we care to remember, still use the time honoured tradition of using BOTH BRAKE AND GEAR CHANGE AS APPROPRIATE.
Its true that modern engineering has made a lot of old practices redundant, such as double declutching before the advent of syncromesh gears. But I wont subscribe to the brake for stop, gear to go brigade. I prefer to continue smooth trouble free, ready for anything, harmonious use of both brake and gear change.


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

> I prefer to continue smooth trouble free, ready for anything, harmonious use of both brake and gear change.


Is that the "Haphazard Method", badger?


----------



## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

badger,

Amen to that. I find it incredible this subject has had 72 contributions and 1677 views. An outsider looking in would say if that's what motorhomers spend their time on, get a life!

Dave


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

It only had 71 contributions, 'til you posted, Dave!


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Now it's 73... er, 74...


----------



## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

LordAtManor said:


> Red_Dragon_Bus says: "You cannot currently fail a driving test for changing down through the gears when slowing down."
> 
> Interesting - Ripley says you can if I understand him correctly
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2002/02/08/emrip09.xml


My understanding is that there is no legal requirement for a learner to be taught to drive by an ADI so a learner may be taught by a parent or friend who might teach the old method. So the DSA would not penalise a candidate.

As I mentioned before failing to give a signal would be marked down as a driver fault. Changing gear in itself should not be marked down as a driver fault if it is done safely.

Every learner I present for test has been taught the DSA method from the start or I have corrected the gear changing "problem" before presenting them for test. I have pupils who practice with family and come back with some interesting "habits" which I have to correct.

I am not a DSA examiner so I am not in a position to decide the outcome of a driving test.


----------



## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

You can steal a man's wife but don't try and criticize his driving. 
Strange phenomena isn't it that people get into trenches over what after all is a simple mechanical process. If the heading had been for a discussion on 'road reading' or 'anticipation', then this thread would have probably died at birth and yet those things are probably far more important to 'safety'.

Always been impressed by Barry's diplomacy on these pages. Honed through many years 'advising' motorists at the side of the road no doubt. 

I suspect in any case that most motorhomers are fairly cautious drivers - you don't see too many ripping through towns at 50 plus. Imagine what entrenched views some others will have.

Spookily, I was thinking about this thread yesterday while driving my daughter along a rural A road with a high fatality rate. At that very moment, her mobile rang, the radio needed turning down, the traffic ahead stopped suddenly, she was pitched forward in her belt and we nearly became another statistic. She couldn't understand why I found it funny.

Nobby.


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

> Always been impressed by Barry's diplomacy on these pages.


Thanks, nobby. My philosophy on life has been, to borrow the physician's dictum, "Do no harm" and if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. But I'm a gasbag, too!


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

BarryandSue said:


> [ But I'm a gasbag, too!


I will avoid the opportunity of comment on that other than to note that any gassings you have tried on this forum have proved not only to be harmless but actually livened up the occupants........ I never even felt a little drowsy.

Mike

P.S. I am working on my next thread and poll which will I hope be followed by another Mrs Merton style 'heated debate!'


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

C'mon, Mike "Let's have a heated debate!" :lol:


----------



## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

8O People keep telling me and I have seen it demostrated on many occasion. Is that the correct procedure for a turn manouver (someone mentioned it earlier in this thread) is the following:-

Brake hard
Turn
Indicate
Change into the correct gear and trying not to stall the engine. Accelerate away. :roll:


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

:lol: The indicator's optional in this case JSW! Normally if it gets knocked accidentally! :lol:


----------



## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

BarryandSue said:


> :lol: The indicator's optional in this case JSW! Normally if it gets knocked accidentally! :lol:


 8O Yes I forgot to mention that. The indicator usually gets knocked on by accident when turning the steering wheel with one hand the other holding the Mobile phone and peering through the smoke haze from a cigarette in the mouth. :roll:


----------



## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Oh, and the indicator coming on doesn't always have to appear near a turn. 
It can make an appearance when, for instance, the children are being "disciplined", or immediately before the wipers are switched on or headlamp flashed, etc. It can also be left on for mile after mile, as a mark of respect for all those who were confused three miles back!


----------



## fdhadi (May 9, 2005)

Nobby,

when you braked suddenly did you use the gears 
or the brakes to stop????????

Regards
Frank


----------



## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

Nice one Frank!

In this part of the world we have a third means of slowing down.... tractors!!! 
As soon as you get anywhere near one (and there are many), your vehicle speed seems to mysteriously reduce to about 15mph.

I used to work with a (very pleasant) chap who resorted to leaving home at 6.a.m. just to avoid them on his drive in. He had to retire on mental health grounds by which time he had taken to stopping his car on the carriageway on busy A roads and shaking his fist at their drivers (really). He did have other symptoms but that was one of the more amusing ones.

Nobby


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi all

I have bumped this thread because last night I had to drive home in blizzard conditions. The roads were jam packed with folk driving too close, too fast and with clearly not the faintest idea of how to cope with 2-3 inches of snow on the road.

As I watched the snaking traffic in front of me going off into the distance I could not believe how many drivers were using the brakes to control the car....that is if you call using the brakes, in ice and snow, "controlling the car".

All of this has no doubt been brought about by the current teaching methods.....proper throttle control and the benefits of using the gear box to slow down seems to be a thing of the past when it comes to instruction.

In last nights conditions I felt reasonably safe and in control...until another car came anywhere near us...._how could I be sure that it was not some unfortunate who had only ever been taught to use the brakes to slow down_ :roll:

With all those "snow virgins" out there, when the conditions are like last night, I think the best place to be is by the fire at home, driving amongst them is just too frightening :lol: :lol:

Mike


----------



## MOTORHOMER (May 9, 2005)

Hello

I drive the Motorhome the way I was taught to drive. Slow down through the gears. 

My car is automatic so I have to use the brakes.

There fore I have two boxes to tick above. We need a box for those who drive both ways depending on which vehicle they are using


Motorhomer


----------



## Enodreven (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi, 

I think we are nearly all agreeing, even if you don't change down, you are still using the gear (s) to help slow the vehicle as long as you don't depress the clutch (and coast).

As a driving instructor, I taught pupils to use the engine braking together with the brakes to slow the vehicle e.g. keep the clutch up until the last possible moment before the engine starts to pull (some diesels) or stall, thereby using both the gear (s) and engine, plus brakes to slow the vehicle, 

Snow/Ice conditions

I have a rear wheel drive diesel automatic, and in the snow and ice it becomes very difficult to stop the front sliding, and i have sliped it into neutral at times to stop this happening. What appears to happen is that if you brake very gently the front wheels lock and the back drive wheels continue to turn thus pushing the vehicle forward and as the front wheels are locked you are unable to control the direction, anyone else had this problems
Brian


----------



## SidT (May 9, 2005)

Unfortunately I haven't had time to read all the posts.

someone said

_Course, Mirrors, Signals, Brake (or reduce speed) Gear, Accellerate _

So that's why so many drivers these days stop at roundabouts when there isn't a car in sight, they are trying to select 1st gear.

Surely if you are braking from 70mph at a junction and don't change gear until you are ready to accelerate, you are in the wrong gear all the time.
I passed my test 53 years ago and I am afraid its too late to change, I only feel safe when braking _and_ changing down thru the box as I decelerate.
Sorry if its been said before.
Cheers Sid


----------



## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Enodreven said:


> Snow/Ice conditions
> 
> I have a rear wheel drive diesel automatic, and in the snow and ice it becomes very difficult to stop the front sliding, and i have sliped it into neutral at times to stop this happening. What appears to happen is that if you brake very gently the front wheels lock and the back drive wheels continue to turn thus pushing the vehicle forward and as the front wheels are locked you are unable to control the direction, anyone else had this problems
> Brian


Hi Brian

Interesting that you too have had some problems in the snow with your Automatic...we have an Automatic Volvo Estate ...in fact that is what we were in last evening when the snow came down...and yes the Volvo is really dodgy to drive on snow, just like yours...for a car that comes from Sweden where for several months a year there is snow around I find that quite strange. The back end on the Volvo is really light and with a V6 3 litre petrol engine, controlling the amount of power to the wheels needs a light right foot. If we get a lot more snow this year I shall be putting a couple of bags of spuds into the back for the duration. :lol: Or use my old VW Golf, front wheel drive, point it in the direction you want to go and it follows the front wheels....usually :roll:

Mike


----------



## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

Most service buses are fully automatic with rear wheel drive and they are a nightmare in snow and ice. The back end is pushing against the brakes and the front end is sliding forward regardless of the direction the wheels are pointing. Thats why they only send buses up treated roads. 8O 

Driving a manual vehicle in snow you want to be very gentle with all of the controls, whilst I appreciate the comment about not using the brakes, I would not recommend using the gears in place of brakes. 

Allowing the vehicle to lose momentum by removing the drive to the wheels and then selecting an appropriate gear is not the same as selecting a lower gear and bringing the clutch up to make the vehicle slow down.

If you do you are forcing the driven wheels to slow down which could induce a skid particularly in a front wheel drive vehicle.

It is still better to use the brakes gently as they are applied to all 4 wheels, they key is to keep the speed low to start with.


----------



## Pusser (May 9, 2005)

I don't give a monkeys for those hehind me - only the one in front. This is because if I hit the one in front it is my fault and if someone goes up my backside then that is theirs.


----------



## Malc (May 9, 2005)

Red Dragon Bus,
The idea is to rev the engine to match the road speed prior to engaging the clutch. :lol: 
Malc


----------



## Col447 (May 14, 2005)

The RAF taught me to drive many years ago, double declutching and using the gears to slow the vehicle.I have spent many months in Norway in the middle of winter driving around in plenty of snow and ice, and the best way of keeping the vehicle under control was to use your gears.As the slightest touch of the brake pedal would be the end of your drive as you would almost certainly end up in a large snow bank on the side of the road( as happened to one of my Sgts two years on the trot, the second time it was on its roof !!!!!!!!!) Needless to say the Boss was not happy as he was suppose to know better ! :roll:


----------



## 88927 (May 10, 2005)

Hi Mike
I once had an interesting situation in an automatic Volvo. I was going down an on ramp towards a dual carriageway in ice and snow. The dual carriageway was stationary and I gently applied the brakes..... Nothing. All four wheels locked up and I was still doing about 15-20 MPH straight towards a very large lorry. Bit of quick thinking on my part, I slammed the brakes on again to stop the wheels turning, hit reverse gear and nailed it. Yes, result... the car came to a standstill and the seatwarmer dried up the wet patch.
I don't know if this is recommended technique but when needs must.......

Keith


----------



## 91929 (May 1, 2005)

Yep Double De Clutch Whats that I Hear

1 - Change into Neutral
2 - Foot off clutch
3 - Rev engine to bring revs up so taht the clutch plates are revolving at thier New speed (that requored for the lower gear)
4 - Foot on Clutch
5 - Engage lower gear
6 - Foot of clutch Get the idea

Once you get into this you can change down to First gear in a mini at 10 mph
hand boook says DO NOT ENGAGE 1st GEAR UNTIL STATIONARY

Yep Change down DDC keep engine revs & steer in the direction you want to go in (Front Wheel Drive)

Bought my first front wheel drive in 1963 & have driven in snow. On the Pennines. In mud on grass 

Car handling on ice - Find a straight flat road & try brakes NOT WHILE TRAVELLING AT 60 mph


----------

