# Paper Road Tax Disc Being Abolished



## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25223631

Peter


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

when I saw the headline this morning I though Osborne was going to be really radical and abolish the charge altogether and increase fuel duty to compensate. :roll: 

So presumably the "authorities" have access to DVLA records and can see that the vehicle's owner has paid up. A guinness bottle label isn't any good now?


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

I think that has been the case for some time now, Police ANPR cameras can check the databases for tax, MOT and insurance and the registered owner's details.

It would have made a lot more sense to have VED on fuel, but then we have never had a Government willing to grasp the nettle and do it.

Probably because of the increases in transport costs it would bring to the road haulage companies. We are very road transport intensive in the UK, so anything like this would disproportionately affect truck running costs.

Peter


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## dovtrams (Aug 18, 2009)

A good move and not before time. It is a pity that the tax was not abolished all together and put it on fuel as a separate charge but that is for the future. Moreover, this move will get rid of the stupid law of 'not displaying a valid tax disc'. Guilty even if you are fully paid up and the disc has just slipped off the windscreen.

Dave


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

So will we be able to just pay for the months we want to use the van?

Pay as you Go (away)?


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Stanner said:


> So will we be able to just pay for the months we want to use the van?
> 
> Pay as you Go (away)?


Nice idea and sounds easy but they already want SORN and you can only claim back for complete months so I think it unlikely as it would reduce Government income...... and cause DVLA to be even more pivotal about getting the database accurate - so I think not (sadly)

Dave


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## bigcats30 (Aug 13, 2012)

bognormike said:


> when I saw the headline this morning I though Osborne was going to be really radical and abolish the charge altogether and increase fuel duty to compensate. :roll:
> 
> So presumably the "authorities" have access to DVLA records and can see that the vehicle's owner has paid up. A guinness bottle label isn't any good now?


They will never do it as they make far more money out of charging a fixed fee no matter how you use your vehicle.

Remember the Government will never put money in your pocket for them to loose it......ever.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Ah, the Swansea Joke Machine!

Probably better now that the old ICL stuff has been ditched, but according to one of their staff, they still get a huge volume of phone and letter enquiries that take up a large proportion of their Customer Services department.

We use the online services and they seem to work well.

Peter


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

While I welcome the removal of another layer of officialdom, I will miss being able to remind myself about taxing my vehicles. I know they post reminders but not all letters arrive, so how will I explain that to the ANPR car that stops me?
If someone parks in a place that is inconvenient for an extended time. at present a glance at the tax disc will tell me it has been abandoned or not and if I wish I may report it.
I understand that we should be able to check online by entering our registration. I just tried this and all I learned was how to find the tax office in Ipswich where it was first registered. Not sure this is much help for anything.

So losing the disc may be a great idea but we will need some online back-up to replace it.

Alan


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## Tintent115 (Dec 20, 2012)

bognormike said:


> So presumably the "authorities" have access to DVLA records and can see that the vehicle's owner has paid up.


The public have access to this information as well. You can just go on the government website.....

https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-tax


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Penquin said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> > So will we be able to just pay for the months we want to use the van?
> ...


You would just declare SORN at the end of the month and restart the VED the next month you wanted to use it again. Just like taking out a tax disc and cashing it in at the end of the season.

It will make long term continental use cheaper.

Travel out in last week of month - declare SORN from McD in France.

Then travel back in first week of month re-taxing van from McD in France a day or so before catching the ferry.

Ooops I bet they hadn't thought of that......................

They will have now...............


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## Easyriders (May 16, 2011)

As far as I understand it, the vehicle should still be taxed when it is abroad, so long as it is on the road.

But without a tax disc, how will police in other countries know whether it's taxed or not?


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

[/quote]

The public have access to this information as well. You can just go on the government website.....

https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-tax[/quote]

I just tried this route and unless I have the logbook or VO5 it would not tell me if my vehicle was taxed or not.
If the number plate search is enlarged this may work but at present I failed to find the details i needed.

Alan


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

The public have access to this information as well. You can just go on the government website.....

https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-tax[/quote]

I just tried this route and unless I have the logbook or VO5 it would not tell me if my vehicle was taxed or not.
If the number plate search is enlarged this may work but at present I failed to find the details i needed.

Alan[/quote]

Alan, It works for me for my two vehicles. Go to the link and select <start>. Select <vehicle inquiry> <next>.
Enter Vehicle Registration and make. Submit { ignore the Date last V5C issued box}
Ray


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Easyriders said:


> As far as I understand it, the vehicle should still be taxed when it is abroad, so long as it is on the road.
> 
> But without a tax disc, how will police in other countries know whether it's taxed or not?


they are not interested, completely irrelevant to them.


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

bognormike said:


> Easyriders said:
> 
> 
> > As far as I understand it, the vehicle should still be taxed when it is abroad, so long as it is on the road.
> ...


That used to be the case her ein Spain, but increasingly not any more. Certainly the Guardia Trafico have very substantially upped their stop-and-check rates on foreign registered vehicles in the past 2 years, and there seem to be more and more every month now.

Two reasons I think: firstly they have to be self-funding nowadays,a nd "rich" foreigners are easy meat. Also, they've had a lot more trainming in what a Brit vehicle needs, in order to be used legally in Spain..........to be legally used ANYWHERE a Brit car needs to be legal in it's home country.....so must have current UK VED and current UK MOT (assuming it's of an age where MOT is needed).

These things really are now being checked at least in our region in Spain, and very hefty fines, plus confiscation of vehicle, follow, if you're caught driving without them.

Unfortunately for all law abiding people over here, the UK Govt is one of the few countries that has thus far still refusing to enter DVLA into the computerised driver/vehicle information system which increasingly is becoming accessible by Police forces across the rest of mainland Europe.
This means that UK Police find it nigh on impossible to check the bona fides of non-Brit vehicles being used in the UK; and it also hampers the Police in all other countries who cannot do the same for UK vehicles being used in their countries.
Maybe that UK Govt. reluctance will change in the near future if they are finally embracing electronic systems?


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## sideways (Jun 2, 2008)

under current rules if you surrender the disc and declare sorn, you cannot retax for 21 days, if you do they will send the surrendered tax disc back to you.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

sideways said:


> under current rules if you surrender the disc and declare sorn, you cannot retax for 21 days, if you do they will send the surrendered tax disc back to you.


Which is exactly what they should do, as you are simply re-taxing from the date at which you declared SORN.

You cannot re-tax from part way through a month can you?


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

TheNomad said:


> so must have current UK VED and current UK MOT........These things really are now being checked at least in our region in Spain, and very hefty fines, plus confiscation of vehicle, follow, if you're caught driving without them.


I heard / read somewhere that the Spanish have sorted the problem of not being able to access the DVLA database by having a representative of DVLA in Spain with a laptop/tablet who CAN check the database himself (herself) - that way they know on the spot whether the vehicle is legal in the UK or not......

Presumably the costs of such a secondment will be borne by the Spanish authority that is using their services and presumably it is cost-effective to do that.......

Assuming that it is true, of course,

Dave


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Penquin said:


> by having a representative of DVLA in Spain with a laptop/tablet who CAN check the database himself (herself) -


Could you let me know if the job ever comes available please.

I fancy a job sat on a Spanish beach looking up reg nos on a laptop.

What are the hours like?

Would you really need to be in Spain though?


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

Penquin said:


> TheNomad said:
> 
> 
> > so must have current UK VED and current UK MOT........These things really are now being checked at least in our region in Spain, and very hefty fines, plus confiscation of vehicle, follow, if you're caught driving without them.
> ...


Would be a nice idea; but shame it's not true I'm afraid. 
The UK Govt still won't share DVLA records with any other Foreign Govt Agency except where serious cross border crime (murder etc) is involved; and even then they work through Interpol.

That's why if you're flashed for speeding by a French/Spanish/Potuguese/German etc fixed speed camera whilst "en continent" in your UK motorhome, you don't need to worry about getting a fine letter through the post back in Blighty.


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## Zozzer (Aug 13, 2006)

Could removing the tax disc and allowing payment to be made by monthly direct debit pave the way for a UK toll system.

Ie, you will no longer pay a monthy road tax, you will instead pay a monthly road toll.

Then Johnnie foreigner will have to cough up when entering the country.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I just fail to understand why a foreign country would be fussed if your vehicle is taxed or not. I can understand them being concerned about perhaps MOT but even that is not the same abroad.

Anyway if its true that they cant access DVLA Records abroad then without a tax disc in the window they simply wont know now.

What is good about this is that you can now retax abroad and drive home without a disc. This frequently happens to us. I tax the van abroad but then have the 320 mile drive home from dover without the disc. Not been in bother yet but it just takes one jobsworth traffic warden to report you for not displaying a disc.

Its a good idea. Sorning and retaxing will be much easier now.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Stanner said:


> Penquin said:
> 
> 
> > by having a representative of DVLA in Spain with a laptop/tablet who CAN check the database himself (herself) -
> ...


You could end up (not) by the beach in S........

..........wansea. :lol:


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

Hi Barry - I think the reason why foreign Police are interested is that if you're driving in their country with an illegal-to-drive UK registered vehicle, then you're committing an offence in their country and they can fine you.

In addition, I assume there's potentially a question mark over whether your insurance would pay out in the event of you hurting some of their citizens in an accident, and the UK insurers found out (which is of course easy in the UK), that the vehicle was untaxed and was thus being driven illegally.


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## pneumatician (May 1, 2005)

Next step will be as per Insurance companies, automatic renewal just in case you forget.


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## Bubblehead (Mar 5, 2007)

What about hire cars or pool cars, how do you know that they are taxed. Who would be at fault if stopped, owner or driver?


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Bubblehead said:


> What about hire cars or pool cars, how do you know that they are taxed. Who would be at fault if stopped, owner or driver?


VED is the responsibility of the Registered Keeper. The 'Failing to Display' offence will no longer be applicable therefore a non Registered Keeper driver will not be committing any offence.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

TheNomad said:


> Hi Barry - I think the reason why foreign Police are interested is that if you're driving in their country with an illegal-to-drive UK registered vehicle, then you're committing an offence in their country and they can fine you.
> 
> In addition, I assume there's potentially a question mark over whether your insurance would pay out in the event of you hurting some of their citizens in an accident, and the UK insurers found out (which is of course easy in the UK), that the vehicle was untaxed and was thus being driven illegally.


I wonder then if they pull you and decide to get awkward and ask you to prove your vehicle is taxed how you would now do that. No disc.

It shouldnt be a problem for me as I wouldnt intentionally drive around without tax anyway. It just means I dont have to worry about having an out of date tasc disc on the dash so good news.

Although some of you might remember I cocked up this year and went to tax the van in France online only to discover I had forgotten to MOT it three months earlier!


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## chrisgog (May 17, 2005)

Barryd, I too am relieved that you can be abroad and get your vehicle taxed without having to physically have a tax disc displayed. 
Reason we are coming back from Spain end of March is to get the tax disc.
Glad its going now then.
Chris


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

TheNomad said:


> Hi Barry - I think the reason why foreign Police are interested is that if you're driving in their country with an illegal-to-drive UK registered vehicle, then you're committing an offence in their country and they can fine you.
> 
> In addition, I assume there's potentially a question mark over whether your insurance would pay out in the event of you hurting some of their citizens in an accident, and the UK insurers found out (which is of course easy in the UK), that the vehicle was untaxed and was thus being driven illegally.


As VED is only required to drive a vehicle on a "UK highway maintained at public expense", if it isn't on such a highway how it can it be illegal if it doesn't have VED?


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

but surely in order to drive legally in any member of the EEA it has to be legally able to be driven in the UK?

As such the VED *is* required IMO......

but it would take an EEA lawyer to give a definitive answer I suspect....

Dave


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Penquin said:


> but surely in order to drive legally in any member of the EEA it has to be legally able to be driven in the UK?
> 
> As such the VED *is* required IMO......
> 
> ...


It can be driven legally in the UK, but just NOT on public roads - nothing to say exactly WHERE it is drivable.

What could the offence possibly be?

It isn't on a UK public road, so it cannot require UK VED.

The only possible flaw in the cunning plan is enforcement of the "rule" on the DVLA website that states....



> Your vehicle must be in and remain in Great Britain to make a SORN.


So if that is NOT the case the SORN is invalid and VED continues to be due "IN THE UK" and to the UK DVLA.

The foreign authorities are unlikely to give a damn, but if DVLA link to the UKBA computer and that starts using ANPR to record ALL vehicle movements in and out of the country (if it doesn't already) you may return to find a fine for illegally declaring SORN/not having VED waiting for you.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

This subject has been done to death as everybody knows  :lol: 
However the way that I understand it, is that for a vehicle to be legal abroad, it must be legal to drive on the UK road network.
It is a reciprocal agreement, but some folks try to push the boundaries


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Frankly what the UK authorities do is not relevant, what IS relevant is that if your vehicle is not legally able to be driven in the UK and I am sure that would mean on public roads since otherwise not even a driving licence would be needed, and 17 year olds could drive in Europe - which they cannot even if they hold a UK licence, then the authorities in the EEA country could decide that your vehicle is not being driven legally in their country.

And that could mean confiscation of the vehicle and a large fine, with the vehicle oly being returned once it can LEGALLY be driven in that country which means in the UK too.....

I am sure a lot of people get away with it (ask barry) but in these days of austerity across Europe it may well be that other EEA countries do decide to follow such a route - and however much people in the UK complain the agreement says that you may drive in other European countries if you could legally drive in the UK.

EEA countries may still apply their own rules as users of A frames may discover in Spain, and MH users discover if they haven't got a warning triangle in many and two in some, and if they have bikes on the back they have to have the correct red and white warning sign - so they can apply LOCAL laws...... and that differs between e.g. Spain, France and Italy.....

the only way to be sure is to be legally covered in all respects..... and that includes VED IMO.

Dave


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

It's a tax. Like a TV license. 
Do you need a UK TV license to view TV in another country?

Ray.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Penquin said:


> Frankly what the UK authorities do is not relevant, what IS relevant is that if your vehicle is not legally able to be driven in the UK and I am sure that would mean on public roads since otherwise not even a driving licence would be needed, and 17 year olds could drive in Europe - which they cannot even if they hold a UK licence, then the authorities in the EEA country could decide that your vehicle is not being driven legally in their country.
> 
> And that could mean confiscation of the vehicle and a large fine, with the vehicle oly being returned once it can LEGALLY be driven in that country which means in the UK too.....
> 
> ...


BUT what EXACTLY is the offence in French/German/Belgian/Ruritainian law you could be charged with?

IF the DVLA know the vehicle is outside the UK and Sorn has (invalidly) been declared it CAN charge you with not having VED.

So it IS relevant what the UK DVLA do - it can do you for having no road tax.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

I do not have the specific details of which statute they would charge you under, but I am sure they would if they wanted to.....

Asking such a question IMO suggests that you accept that it is a possibility - as I said, your vehicle must be able to be driven legally in the UK, if it is legal you are permitted (not "have a right to.....") to drive in other EEA countries BUT they can still impose their own laws onto those visiting from outside their borders.......

The UK appears to not try to enforce their own rules on EEA residents - hence the many comments about being able to speed / park / use the LEZ if you are registered outside the UK, but if they wish to they can (and do with HGV's as regards driving hours etc.).

I am NOT trying to discuss what penalties you could face in the UK, but what you could face in other EEA countries, where perhaps the penalties are more severe and CAN include confiscation of the vehicle 

You may know the specific offence under UK law, but only a country specialist for each EEA country could tell you what it would be in their country - and if they did, it is unlikely to change such an entrenched view - and that is an observation NOT a criticism of you. It is an observation that very many UK drivers make when in the EEA and many EEA drivers do when they visit the UK.......

Dave


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## bob-in-dav (Aug 11, 2013)

Slightly off topic - but I believe that another part of this new initiative is the scrapping of 6 month and 12 month options to be replaced by monthly direct debit - that could make things a bit more useful.

So - my other half said "How would that work when your tax is only £30 a year or even £0 if you run one of those little diesel cars?"


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

There will be a 5% premium for taking the monthly option!

Another example of the less you can afford the more you are charged that seems to be applied across the board in the UK today.

Dick


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

Glandwr said:


> There will be a 5% premium for taking the monthly option!
> 
> Another example of the less you can afford the more you are charged that seems to be applied across the board in the UK today.
> 
> Dick


That is less than the current surcharge for 6 months and there are more admin costs, so 5% isn't too bad.


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## andyandsue (Sep 7, 2008)

*what will old codgers do now!*

what will old codgers do now they cant save EVERY ONE of thier old tax discs in the plastic circular holder


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## bob-in-dav (Aug 11, 2013)

And Halfords could dip into the red if they're not selling tax disc holders at their usual inflated prices - still, it will make room on the shelves for something else.

Any ideas what tax disc holders could be used for when there's millions of unsold stock?

I'm really lowering the tone of this serious subject ain't I?


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

bob-in-dav said:


> Any ideas what tax disc holders could be used for when there's millions of unsold stock?


I use one, cut in half, and put parking or overnight aire tickets inside.
Works well!


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## Jamsieboy (Jan 14, 2011)

Another blow to rural post offices


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

A further measure appears to be that it is no longer a requirement to check for insurance as part of the tax renewal from 16/12/2013 .

http://www.mib.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/...AinsuranceandSORNpressnoticeDecember20132.pdf


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

rayc said:


> A further measure appears to be that it is no longer a requirement to check for insurance as part of the tax renewal from 16/12/2013 .


If it is all going to go online anyway, what is the benefit/significance of doing that?

I could see that a PO counter wouldn't have the facilities to look it up, but are we still going to use PO's for RFL renewal?

Peter


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Has anyone successfully renewed their VED for a PHGV at a Post Office since it was permitted since last June?. This was done in anticipation of closing of Regional DVLA offices, which was where you had to renew unless you sent it to Swansea, or did it on-line.

Geoff


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

listerdiesel said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> > A further measure appears to be that it is no longer a requirement to check for insurance as part of the tax renewal from 16/12/2013 .
> ...


I think you will still be able to renew at the Post Office as not everybody has the internet. Of course all they will do is to do it on line hopefully for no extra charge. In any event the Post Office will still be doing it until late next year until no tax disc at least, whilst the non check of insurance applies from the 16th of this month.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

rayc said:


> listerdiesel said:
> 
> 
> > rayc said:
> ...


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## Spacerunner (Mar 18, 2006)

If 'toffee-nosed' villages and their post offices accepted motorhomes with more of a welcome then maybe their other (grocery) sales would be enough to keep them going. Same applies to their whingeing pubs too.


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## bigtree (Feb 3, 2007)

Please be aware that this quotation (or renewal) is subject to the following conditions:
Proposers must maintain a full UK residence, either through ownership or long term rental agreement (of at least 9 months) unless a
full-timing rate has been agreed and paid.
This address must be the one at which the proposer is on the electoral roll, (unless a full-timing rate has been agreed and paid) and
also the one that appears on the driving licence and vehicle documentation.
The motor caravan must at all times have a valid MOT certificate (unless not required due to age of vehicle) & current UK road
fund licence tax disc.

Lifted off Comfort Insurance proposal.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

I think it is a bad move.

I also think we should have to display insurance discs or squares in the front window.

TM


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## TheNomad (Aug 12, 2013)

I think this is a buggers muddle.

It's only gone halfway to what would have been the sensible change: scrap VED entirely, and put a few pence on each litre of road fuel instead.

The it would be a truly progressive tax: Everyone then pays accoring to their usage - including all those in the UK who currently evade paying VED by having untaxed vehicles; AND including all foreign cars/lorries on UK roads.

Got a gas guzzler? Pay more. Got an economical vehicle? Pay less.

The savings in Admin/beancounters/computer programmes/police time/cps time/magistrates courts time would be utterly gigantic....meaning the additional tax on a litre of fuel would be very small to balance out the change.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

bigtree said:


> The motor caravan must at all times have a valid MOT certificate (unless not required due to age of vehicle) & current UK road
> fund licence tax disc.
> 
> Lifted off Comfort Insurance proposal.


That will obviously need amending for late 2014 when the disc is obsolete.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

teemyob said:


> I think it is a bad move.
> 
> I also think we should have to display insurance discs or squares in the front window.
> 
> TM


While I agree that any way to stop uninsured vehicles is to be welcomed I think that a insurance 'disc' would not achieve this in the same way rhe production of a Cert. of Ins. does not.

It is too easy to take out insurance on a direct debit, receive Cert?disc, display, and cancel a month later. The cancellation does show up on the MID, for the police to check.

Also dics are only readable on a stationery vehicle - the police via DVLA and MID links can check moving vehicles.

Geoff


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## Zozzer (Aug 13, 2006)

VED should be scrapped entirely, replaced with a vignette for vehicles under 3500kg. Vehicles over 3500kg should be fitted with an electronic device similar to the "Go Box".

At least that way ALL vehicles will have to pay to use the roads and not just British drivers.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Zozzer said:


> VED should be scrapped entirely, replaced with a vignette for vehicles under 3500kg. Vehicles over 3500kg should be fitted with an electronic device similar to the "Go Box".
> 
> At least that way ALL vehicles will have to pay to use the roads and not just British drivers.


Strange that as the EEC is getting more integration that member countries want more protectionism as far as vehicle Excise Duty or their equivalent funding is concerned. No doubt the next step is a duty that covers all member countries with the income going to Brussels?


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

I admit to liking the idea of direct tax being abolished but that could create the need for more automatic vehicle recognition equipment being deployed, to prevent MOT and Insurance evasion. If I gather some statistics concerning these and the number of people driving without a valid licence are correct, a sizeable minority of road users would be filling the courts.

Alan


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## emmbeedee (Oct 31, 2008)

TheNomad said:


> AND including all foreign cars/lorries on UK roads.


What makes you think the foreign lorries buy fuel here? Their drivers are too smart for that, they fill up in the cheapest country they can (Luxembourg?) & run on their enormous tanks. 
The present system is bad enough, all these foreign trucks undercutting our guys, 'cos their fuel is cheaper, damaging our roads, with their 44 tonners & paying nothing towards maintaining our roads. Our guys have to pay their tolls over there, but we don't have tolls so lose out. We certainly shouldn't make our fuel any dearer, we're one of the dearest already.


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

When I was trucking, we had large tanks and mostly used Spanish fuel. Just the odd top up here in the UK


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## Jeannette (Aug 7, 2012)

I am a big fan of this change personally. As the owner of seven vehicles it will make my life so much easier to just pay by direct debit and not worry about having to display a disk. The authorities know they are taxed and that's all that's needed. 

It will save me endless hassle getting trashed disks on my enduro bikes being replaced. 

I picked up a new car earlier this week and am driving around without displaying a tax disk as it's not been sent yet and I have not wrought havoc on the roads.


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