# Road tax and MoT whilst abroad



## bigles

What's the situation regarding road tax and MoT on a motorhome whilst abroad?

We are planing to be away for 9-12 months during which time the road tax and Mot on ours will expire. I'm assuming they will be needed for our insurance to be valid. So do we have to return to the UK just to get the MoT so we can then get the road tax.

How do fellow MH'ers deal with this situation, particularly full timers?


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## tonyt

That's a question that frequently pops up here.

Have you tried a Forum search? There were some useful threads not so long ago.


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## NigeT

As I understand it you have to come back for the MOT, so do it before you leave.
Road Tax get a relative or friend to do it in the post office and post it to you.
Best I can think of.


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## DTPCHEMICALS

Simple 

Have mot done just prior to departure.
If you have a couple of months Tax prior to departure and are not going to use MH, Sorn it and then re tax prior to departure.
You then know that you are covered for a full 12 months.

Dave p
edit I think the earlier answer is incorrect as you have to show mot and insurance certs at post office to obtain VED disc.


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## johnthompson

The simple answer is you need both to be legal. Either get it before you go or come back the choice is yours.

John


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## inkey-2008

Do what I do Mot the van just before you leave mine had only 5 months on the ticket so it went straight though.

Cash in the tax one month before you leave then re-tax your van.

If your insurance is going to expire while you are away get somebody to post it to you. 

You need the original.

Andy


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## cabby

you can cancel your existing road tax and then take out a new 12 months one, providing there is at least one month of mot & insurance left.you should be able to do it online as well. regarding the mot, you can virtually do the same, a new mot will give you 12 months. no need to return to renew then.

cabby


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## erneboy

Here is a recent thread on the topic: http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-112729.html

Alan.


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## NigeT

Yes you are right need all the docs, but not you, could do it online though in this day and age.
But SORN and then retax is ideal.


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## Spacerunner

See here .
You can tax you vehicle up to 2 months in advance.


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## erneboy

Andy emailed Insurance Certificates were made legal last year in the UK at least: http://www.out-law.com/page-10910

It would be interesting to know if they are accepted else where. Doubtless they would be eventually but whether the Cop at the roadside in Spain or France know that they are approved in the UK?

It does look as though emailing them is intended to save on paper and postage so this may become increasingly popular. Who knows, Alan.


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## bigles

Thanks for all the prompt replies. I was assuming I could apply online for the tax and get it posted out to us by a relative, it was more the MoT situation as it's necessary to be able to get the tax.

So, I don't need tax whilst abroad, but do I need an MoT? If I let that expire I will be driving without MoT or tax when I arrive back in the UK (illegal).

It seems I'm best to get 12 months MoT before we go, which should last us.

I didn't realise hat no tax was needed - is that OK with insurance?


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## Addie

bigles said:


> Thanks for all the prompt replies. I was assuming I could apply online for the tax and get it posted out to us by a relative, it was more the MoT situation as it's necessary to be able to get the tax.
> 
> So, I don't need tax whilst abroad, but do I need an MoT? If I let that expire I will be driving without MoT or tax when I arrive back in the UK (illegal).
> 
> It seems I'm best to get 12 months MoT before we go, which should last us.
> 
> I didn't realise hat no tax was needed - is that OK with insurance?


We've just done 12 months in Europe we went to a DVLA office and they did all the forms to surrender and re-tax there and then and walked out with a years tax disc in less than 5 minutes. £35 MOT day before the ferry at a local garage.

I WOULD NOT for the sake of £200 risk being without tax abroad unless I had in writing from my insurance company that my vehicle was still covered while SORN'd but out of the country (which my insurer would not provide).

DVLA say (publically) you do, insurance company's likely follow suit and say you do and its irresponsible for any forum member to advise that you don't.

The choice is yours!


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## Annsman

The problem with posting it out to you is that if it goes missing there will be a devils' job to replace it.

Our road tax ran out while we were away in Spain and I checked with Cheshire Police Road Policing Division. They told me.

To drive an untaxed UK vehicle on any road in the EU is an offence. The police in the EU all have access to the DVLA data base. (It's the same for us with them). It will also invalidate your insurance, which will compound the effect.

They told me we could tax the van online and keep the tax disc at home until we got back. Any ANPR camera will show the vehicle as legal. Driving a vehicle with no valid tax disc is only an offence within the UK. The only way this would cause a problem is if a police officer sees the old disc in the window and stops you. He would of course have access to the database and so would know the vehicle was taxed. If you keep your ferry/tunnel receipt and show them your date of entry and providing you were on your way home, wherever in the UK that was, they would be very unlikely to take it further. If they did, I was to say I wasn't accepting the roadside ticket and wanted my day in court. This would then make them even less likely to do anything because there would be little chance of a prosecution. Of course if I was still driving round three months later the excuse wouldn't be valid!

Because the vehicle is taxed and MOT'd you are legal and this won't affect your insurance.

We did it and drove from Spain to the Warrington in December with a November tax disc and nobody batted an eyelid.


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## erneboy

The link I posted will tell you what we can be sure of. Your Insurance is not invalidated if the vehicle is not taxed although many people seem to think it is, Alan.


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## Annsman

That includes Cheshire Police!


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## DTPCHEMICALS

Quote Annsman:
They told me we could tax the van online and keep the tax disc at home until we got back. Any ANPR camera will show the vehicle as legal. Driving a vehicle with no valid tax disc is only an offence within the UK. The only way this would cause a problem is if a police officer sees the old disc in the window and stops you. He would of course have access to the database and so would know the vehicle was taxed. If you keep your ferry/tunnel receipt and show them your date of entry and providing you were on your way home, wherever in the UK that was, they would be very unlikely to take it further. If they did, I was to say I wasn't accepting the roadside ticket and wanted my day in court. This would then make them even less likely to do anything because there would be little chance of a prosecution. Of course if I was still driving round three months later the excuse wouldn't be valid! 

No excuse, my mate would nick you.

Plenty of ways to obtain VED. and be covered .

Dave p


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## Spacerunner

Contact your insurance company they may be able to post date a renewal to commence when your present insurance runs out.
I did this last year but only for a month's delay.


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## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

Annsman said:


> That includes Cheshire Police!


Ahh if only the police knew the law as well as some of them think they do. Reality is, as in most walks of life the things they deal with on a regular basis can be identified correctly by them as being contrary to the Statute Law. Things that they do net deal with regular and that are subject to EU regulations and sometimes stated cases in the high courts cause many more grey areas and often result in opinions. 
The Vehicle Excise Licence is primarily a revenue raising piece of legislation aimed at UK residents who own and use their vehicles on UK roads. It is outside of the powers of our parliament to legislate for the use of vehicles in other countries. That lies within the remit of their own parliaments. Most have rules that permit visitors vehicles periods of grace from their date of last entry into the country before their own rules kick in. It is recognised that with a free border system chaos would exist were they to try and enforce their own system on visitors.
Having said that the Go box system and the vignette system are being used by more and more continentals to harvest revenue from visitors using their roads.


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## Annsman

Dave, the guy I spoke to also said he's nick me! But that was only because he admitted he would be so jealous of me swanning round France & Spain while he had to put up with sh**e and bad weather! He said he retires in March and has picked out his van already.


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## bigles

I phoned the DVLA and they have told me that you have to have valid road tax, MoT and insurance in your country of origin to be legal in Europe.


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## bigles

And now my insurer (Saga) tell me that road tax is NOT necessary whilst abroad but MoT is!


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## erneboy

The link I provided earlier will help you understand the position the DVLA take.

Firstly the question you are asking is one which impinges on Government policy in so far as the law says that a UK registered vehicle must either be taxed or SORN ed. A functionary in the DVLA therefore must take the view that you do one or the other. They quite understandably take the view that you cannot continue to drive a vehicle for which you have completed a Statutory Off Road Notice so they tell you it must be taxed.

The only other option is to export the vehicle, then it's no longer of any concern to the DVLA. However that option may be fraught with difficulty and anyway it's not suitable for most of us.

Your insurance company are not concerned with tax as it's not a condition of insurance.

The only way to be certain that you are completely legal and stay away for more than one year is to so so in a vehicle which is young enough not to require MOT. You can then maintain both tax and insurance.

Whether or not you require tax when you are not in the UK is a matter of debate. Some say you do and some say you don't. I have seen lots of opinions on the matter but never a record of anyone who was away from the UK having been prosecuted for not having UK road tax. That seems logical as UK law applies in the UK, what charge could a foreign cop use? 

We have to face it, the system does not allow for what we do, Alan.


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## cabby

The DVLA is correct.You need MOT and Tax and Insurance.I have already explained how to get a full 12 months of each in a previous answer.

cabby


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## Addie

erneboy said:


> I have seen lots of opinions on the matter but never a record of anyone who was away from the UK having been prosecuted for not having UK road tax. That seems logical as UK law applies in the UK, what charge could a foreign cop use?
> 
> We have to face it, the system does not allow for what we do, Alan.


Alan,

I don't think the issue is one for prosecution for not having tax when abroad, but one of giving insurance companies an opportunity not to pay out. This is why I think its unwise to advise to advise members that it is 'legal' to do this when it could potentially invalidate their insurance.

I've written to 5 of the main motorhome insurers and 2 of the insurance bodies asking them to confirm if they would consider a motorhome insured by them but untaxed for the time it is abroad (and retaxed online before entry) insured.

Their responses should provide some clarification on the matter from an insurance angle at least.


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## erneboy

Cabby I am curious, how can you be sure about the need for tax abroad? I know why the DVLA say you need it, as explained in my post above.

As I said above: Whether or not you require tax when you are not in the UK is a matter of debate. Some say you do and some say you don't. I have seen lots of opinions on the matter but never a record of anyone who was away from the UK having been prosecuted for not having UK road tax. That seems logical as UK law applies in the UK.


The question I have never seen an answer to is what charge could a foreign cop use? 

Alan.


Edit: Addie tax is not a condition of an insurance policy. It cannot be as first you need insurance in order to get tax. If it was you could not get insurance if you didn't have tax and you couldn't get tax if you didn't have insurance. Making getting either and both permanently impossible.

2nd edit: My view is that asking insurance companies may result in an answer we don't want to hear. Currently there is policy condition requiring tax and while that does not provide any definitive answer it does mean that they could not refuse to indemnify because there is no clause to allow them to.


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## bigles

Focusing on the MoT situation, and that the insurers want a valid MoT for the insurance to be effective, I suppose we will have to return every year to get a new MoT?


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## erneboy

Bigles, not all insurers require MOT, some policies only say that the vehicle must be in a roadworthy condition, Alan.


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## Addie

erneboy said:


> 2nd edit: My view is that asking insurance companies may result in an answer we don't want to hear. Currently there is policy condition requiring tax and while that does not provide any definitive answer it does mean that they could not refuse to indemnify because there is no clause to allow them to.


You might not want to hear the answer but I do. I don't think you're wrong, but I think its wrong to advise someone based on a question you dare not ask for fear of getting the 'wrong' answer. If you're right, happy days - I'll be saving £200 on my next EU tour!



bigles said:


> Focusing on the MoT situation, and that the insurers want a valid MoT for the insurance to be effective, I suppose we will have to return every year to get a new MoT?


I have also covered this off in my letter to the underwriters and asked them to answer in isolation to the question of road tax.


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## Penquin

Ernieboy is correct that some insurers say "roadworthy condition" rather than an MoT as the MoT only applies to one specific day when it was tested.......

the implication is that if you had a full years MoT and four worn out tyres and then were involved in an accident the insurers could justifiably claim that the vehicle was NOT in a roadworthy conditon.....

Proving roadworthiness away from the UK would be hard as the UK Governement has just rejected accepting the MoT equivalent test from other EU countries. You could get a test done in another country - it would probably fail due to e.g. headlights not being correct, but in other respects it would maintain "proof" that the vehicle was roadworthy if that was acceptable to your insurers.

It is essential to talk to your insurers and get their opinion IN WRITING about what they want you to have and do. If they are happy that the MoT runs out just prior to your return OK, you can legally drive to a *pre-booked* MoT without a current MoT test certificate and without VED. The critical thing is that it is pre-booked so that if you are stopped you can show the booking exists. That was confirmed by Dougie a former traffic cop as acceptable to traffic police.

As for having valid VED as far as I know there is a requirement under European Law for vehicles being driven in countries other than their registration to fully comply with all requirements for their use in their country of registration. i.e. you should have current VED even if you do not have the disc to display. But I am not a Eurolawyer ( :lol: ) and would not know where such requirements are displayed in a definitive manner.

Dave


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## erneboy

I am not recommending that anyone drive anywhere without tax. I am saying that the position is not as clear as some people say it is and I am asking on what legal grounds a foreign Policeman might require a valid UK tax disc to be on display. I am aware that at least one poster on MHF has told of having been stopped and during the course of that been warned that his tax was shortly due to expire which the Police Officer said would be offence. 

I was wondering under which law any such offence would be committed. I have been examining this topic for several years and have never seen this question answered nor have I heard of anybody actually having been prosecuted for not having UK road tax while abroad.

I agree that it would be nice to have clear answers to all these questions but I think that different vested interests, Insurers, DVLA, Police etc., may simply give their own views rather that a definitive answer. In fact unless there are laws or conditions in insurance policies which refer to these matters opinions are all we can hope for, Alan.


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## cabby

as has already been said, your vehicle must be UK legal, whether in the UK or abroad. no matter what is said about having a tax disk, it is an offence not to display it, also it has to be displayed on the lefthand side of the screen.
As you are only away for less than 12 months, I see no problem at all.
Just do a new MOT and tax before you go.you will get a refund on any tax you return to DVLA, insurance you can renew online or by phone.


cabby


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## javea

erneboy said:


> I am not recommending that anyone drive anywhere without tax. I am saying that the position is not as clear as some people say it is and I am asking on what legal grounds a foreign Policeman might require a valid UK tax disc to be on display. I am aware that at least one poster on MHF has told of having been stopped and during the course of that been warned that his tax was shortly due to expire which the Police Officer said would be offence.
> 
> I was wondering under which law any such offence would be committed. I have been examining this topic for several years and have never seen this question answered nor have I heard of anybody actually having been prosecuted for not having UK road tax while abroad.


About 4 years ago the Guardia Civil locally teamed up with the DVLA and were stopping UK registered cars which were not displaying valid tax discs. The DVLA man had a laptop so that he could then ascertain the last time that the vehicle had been taxed in the UK. Now clearly this was aimed at ex-pats whose cars had been used in Spain for more than six months but does confirm that sometimes foreign authorities do take an interst in the road tax situation.

The penalties imposed on the transgressors varied from large fines to the vehicle being crushed! Presumably this was in respect of breach of Spanish laws but it was interesting that the DVLA were involved.

It certainly galvanised me into action properly to register the Smart that I had brought out from the UK and left here permanently.

Mike


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## erneboy

cabby said:


> as has already been said, your vehicle must be UK legal, whether in the UK or abroad. no matter what is said about having a tax disk, it is an offence not to display it, .........
> 
> cabby


Cabby, I respect your view but can you point us at any verifiable or first hand account of any legal action having been taken against anyone driving an untaxed UK vehicle in any other country? Alan.


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## erneboy

Thanks Mike, were you stopped and checked when this happened? Alan.


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## eddied

bigles said:


> I phoned the DVLA and they have told me that you have to have valid road tax, MoT and insurance in your country of origin to be legal in Europe.


  That is the situation throughout the EU in a nutshell. The smart thing to do is try to work things out so that insurance/MOT and tax disc all fall due on the same/similar dates. Any vehicle in the EU must be road legal in its country of origin.

saluti,
eddied


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## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

cabby said:


> as has already been said, your vehicle must be UK legal, whether in the UK or abroad. no matter what is said about having a tax disk, it is an offence not to display it, also it has to be displayed on the lefthand side of the screen.
> As you are only away for less than 12 months, I see no problem at all.
> Just do a new MOT and tax before you go.you will get a refund on any tax you return to DVLA, insurance you can renew online or by phone.
> 
> cabby


Cabby 
I think your argument would carry much more weight if you were to quote the legislation that supports it. If you have discovered an EU regulation regarding this displaying of a valid Vehicle Licence when abroad please quote it. 
If you do not know or are unable to quote any legislation then I am afraid you are likely to have your comments treated as your opinion, which from a legal standpoint carries very little weight


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## erneboy

eddied said:


> bigles said:
> 
> 
> 
> I phoned the DVLA and they have told me that you have to have valid road tax, MoT and insurance in your country of origin to be legal in Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> That is the situation throughout the EU in a nutshell. The smart thing to do is try to work things out so that insurance/MOT and tax disc all fall due on the same/similar dates. Any vehicle in the EU must be road legal in its country of origin.
> 
> saluti,
> eddied
Click to expand...

Interesting Eddie and often said by many people, it's just that I can't find a word about any actual legislation requiring this anywhere, nor can I fine any reports of anyone anywhere being prosecuted for not having UK tax in any other country.

I would really appreciate seeing the legislation or even just one credible, verifiable report to support this contention, Alan.


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## javea

erneboy said:


> Thanks Mike, were you stopped and checked when this happened? Alan.


Hi Alan,

Luckily no. More by luck than judgement to be honest, my Gardner warned me about the checks, he lives in Benitachell which is where it started, so I quickly made contact with the loocal Gestor who sorted out the Spanish plates at a cost of 900 euros.

Mike


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## erneboy

Thanks Mike.

There are few people on MHF whose posts I respect more that yours or indeed Cabby's so please don't misunderstand when I seek verification.

Maybe it's the pedant in me, Alan.


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## eddied

erneboy said:


> eddied said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigles said:
> 
> 
> 
> I phoned the DVLA and they have told me that you have to have valid road tax, MoT and insurance in your country of origin to be legal in Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> That is the situation throughout the EU in a nutshell. The smart thing to do is try to work things out so that insurance/MOT and tax disc all fall due on the same/similar dates. Any vehicle in the EU must be road legal in its country of origin.
> 
> saluti,
> eddied
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting Eddie and often said by many people, it's just that I can't find a word about any actual legislation requiring this anywhere, nor can I fine any reports of anyone anywhere being prosecuted for not having UK tax in any other country.
> 
> I would really appreciate seeing the legislation or even just one credible, verifiable report to support this contention, Alan.
Click to expand...

Here you go
http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/taxation/l31033_en.htm

lots more where that came from


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## erneboy

Thanks Eddie, which bit are you referring to. I can't see it, Alan.


Edit: Sorry, it says vehicles are exempted in other countries if they are imported in accordance with the general conditions of taxation in force on the domestic market of a Member State and that includes excise duties.

It does seem that you may be correct. Thanks for finding it. More would help if you have it, Alan.


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## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

One more thing to consider regarding Insurance of Motor Vehicles is the difference between being legally insured, which in this country is only Insurance against third party risks and what most of us have, which is a comprehensive policy covering a wealth of extras that we all regard as essential. 
It become important when Insurance companies start to wriggle regarding if they will pay out or not. 

One of the old Lord Chief Justices 'Widgery' I think it was, made the memorable quote that " the proof of Insurance is not whether an Insurance Company considers itself to be On Risk but whether a valid insurance certificate exists" So their opinion counts for little regarding the third party legal cover. One should therefore be clear in correspondence as to if you are enquiring regarding the legal cover or the full cover. It really goes without saying that a clerk in the office may differ from their legal departments solicitors, who will decide if they stick with it or pay out and that is just a matter of what amount is at risk. 

So what difference does that make? It means that third parties will be covered (the legal cover), but they can dodge and wriggle at will regarding all sorts of reasons that they may come up with and it is then up to the policy holder to extract what they can legally from them. 

The small print usually spells it out in their favour and all we see when renewing our policy is how much we pay them.

Do you all know if you are legally covered when abroad or if you have the same level of cover as in the UK?


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## javea

erneboy said:


> Thanks Mike.
> 
> There are few people on MHF whose posts I respect more that yours or indeed Cabby's so please don't misunderstand when I seek verification.
> 
> Maybe it's the pedant in me, Alan.


Thanks for that Alan, appreciated, may I reciprocate those sentiments.

To be honest, I think this was a special set of circumstances as the Spanish were getting understandably fed up with the number of Brits who had moved to Spain bringing their cars with them on a permanent basis but not bothering to register them here and not paying road tax.

I think the fact that Spanish cars do not display a tax disc encouraged the practice.

Mike


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## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

eddied said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eddied said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigles said:
> 
> 
> 
> I phoned the DVLA and they have told me that you have to have valid road tax, MoT and insurance in your country of origin to be legal in Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> That is the situation throughout the EU in a nutshell. The smart thing to do is try to work things out so that insurance/MOT and tax disc all fall due on the same/similar dates. Any vehicle in the EU must be road legal in its country of origin.
> 
> saluti,
> eddied
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting Eddie and often said by many people, it's just that I can't find a word about any actual legislation requiring this anywhere, nor can I fine any reports of anyone anywhere being prosecuted for not having UK tax in any other country.
> 
> I would really appreciate seeing the legislation or even just one credible, verifiable report to support this contention, Alan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here you go
> http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/taxation/l31033_en.htm
> 
> lots more where that came from
Click to expand...

Eddied
Did you come across in your searches whether or not any of the EU actually followed this 1983 directive and introduced legislation supporting it, as the directive suggested?


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## erneboy

Thanks Mike. The link EddieD posted is worth a read.

It does look seem from reading that as though having current UK road tax is a requirement, more specifically that excise duty requirements in the home country must be complied with to make the temporary importation of a vehicle into another state legal.

I wonder how that could be enforced in practice? 

I hope some of our members with legal expertise will give their opinions, Alan.


Edit: Good question Traveller. I take it that would be necessary then. I'm afraid I know nothing about how European law works.


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## eddied

erneboy said:


> Thanks Mike. The link EddieD posted is worth a read.
> 
> It does look seem from reading that as though having current UK road tax is a requirement, more specifically that excise duty requirements in the home country must be complied with to make the temporary importation of a vehicle into another state legal.
> 
> I wonder how that could be enforced in practice?
> 
> I hope some of our members with legal expertise will give their opinions, Alan.
> 
> Edit: Good question Traveller. I take it that would be necessary then. I'm afraid I know nothing about how European law works.


  In its simplest form EU law works so that a member state is obliged to introduce into its national legislation whatever the directive says it should, by a certain date usually shown in the directive itself. It is enforced by the European Commission. It is up to the individual citizen though to ensure that when encountering a law enforcement body, he know his ground; because said agency may not even know what new local law has been passed to comply.
How can this particular feature be enforced? By simple police road checks. As per autoroute near St.Avold a few years ago. 6, yes 6, police motocyclists pulled me over. Checked all my documents. Pointed out that I had only 2 days to get out of France as my MOT expired on 28 Feb. 'Yes, I know. That's why I'm heading to UK'
Re Insurance questions, check this out
http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/insurance/motor_en.htm

In December 1963 I was given 3 days to leave the country, leaving behind a pregnant wife and 14 month old child. There was no EU then, but had to find a way to make myself legal. Did it, ( OCSE directive) and have been doing it ever since.
saluti,
eddied


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## erneboy

Thanks Eddie. The insurance bit was clear, Alan.


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## alhod

If you are away for more than one year why not buy a French van - no road tax required and the equivalent to MoT only once in two years.

Alan


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## erneboy

How would you register it and insure it without a french address? Alan.


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## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

erneboy said:


> Thanks Mike. The link EddieD posted is worth a read.
> 
> It does look seem from reading that as though having current UK road tax is a requirement, more specifically that excise duty requirements in the home country must be complied with to make the temporary importation of a vehicle into another state legal.
> 
> I wonder how that could be enforced in practice?
> 
> I hope some of our members with legal expertise will give their opinions, Alan.
> 
> Edit: Good question Traveller. I take it that would be necessary then. I'm afraid I know nothing about how European law works.


Did I miss something in Para 1 of this directive or does it say that it gives exemption from the tax requirements for temp imported vehicles from countries mentioned in the Annex at the end of the document and for the UK that was Vehicle Excise act 1971


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## cabby

...it is an offence to keep a vehicle on a public road which is not displaying a valid tax disc, even if you've applied for it and are waiting for it to arrive'.

you have to be on a UK road before you get to and from the ferry.

cabby


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## thieawin

Lots of info and misinfo here.

1st 

You are away for less than a year, MOT and re tax it before you go so you have a full 12 months and no problems apart from insurance renewal, which should not be a problem, have a family member send the new certificate out to you. safest, belt and braces

or 

MOT it and you can renew tax on line as the computer has access to the MOT and insurance databases, again get someone to send out the new tax disc to be safest

BUT

The directive linked above does not say what it is being interpreted as saying, neither does the EU or Vienna Convention on International Circulation require MOT or tax disc whilst abroad. The taxes and duties exempted for temporary import are not road tax but import duties and VAT.

The EU regulations are about type acceptance (not road tax and MOTs) if it is type legal and so registered for legal use on the road in UK, so it is in rest of EU. It does not refer to MOT or tax discs. Other member states have no interest in, or ability to enforce, UK law on tax discs or MOT. Under their local law you do not have to have an MOT or a UK tax disc.

You have to be road legal where you are, ie construction and use compliant, lights, brakes, tyres etc.

The Spanish crackdown, with access to UK databases, was to show how long the vehicles were in Spain and thus had overstayed their temporary import exemption, and were thus illegal in Spain, for not having re registered, got an ITV and paid local municipal taxes, not to enforce UK MOT or road tax.

What you probably can't do is SORN in UK and use abroad, as you have agreed that the vehicle is off road, a. you would have to SORN after you departed otherwise you could not get to the port, b. Can you insure a SORNd vehicle for on road use, I think you can, for limited purposes, c. on return you can drive a vehicle without tax, or MOT (and on a SORN) to a prebooked MOT and then get it un SORNed and taxed. That presupposes you can be insured without MOT and tax in UK and whilst on a SORN.

Don't go asking questions, of police DVLA or insurers, chances are the answer will be wrong, and they will play safe, but they will have a record and that may make life difficult if something goes wrong.

it is highly unlikely that in law any attempt to avoid a policy for no MOT or no tax disc would be successful, as long as the vehicle was roadworthy. However you don't want to have the struggle.

So whilst I do advise the doom mongers are wrong about the need for MOT or tax abroad or the ability of the foreign country to actually enforce UK tax and MOT laws, I do advise that you get a years MOT before you go and retax on line, and of course you must insure, that latter is a given and enforceable anywhere.

IOM has no MOT, we tax on line. So maybe re register here! Then as long as you do not outstay temporary import periods in the visited country you can stay as long as you wish. NB there are different periods in different countries.


----------



## cabby

how about this then.

If you take your vehicle abroad, it must be continuously taxed. When you return from abroad, you must have a valid tax disc to be able to drive your vehicle home or you'll be committing an offence. There are no concessions

taken from the page linked below.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_4022052

cabby


----------



## Addie

thieawin said:


> Lots of info and misinfo here....
> 
> Don't go asking questions, of police DVLA or insurers, chances are the answer will be wrong, and they will play safe, but they will have a record and that may make life difficult if something goes wrong.


You've not actually provided anything other than your own opinion on the matter and are no more authoritative than any other contributor.

However, I think this 'hear to evil, speak no evil' approach is hilarious. Don't ask the insurance companies, they might tell you can't do it but if they do they'll be wrong anyway but might try and catch you out if you claim?!

It's a grey area, for sure, but when it comes to insuring £20-30k of your capital I rather it be crystal clear. Sorry if anyone doesn't agree with that, I think it's just common sense.


----------



## cabby

I am not posting any further on this topic.the answer is there, but it seems no one likes it. :roll: :roll: 

cabby


----------



## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

Yea but it was fun whilst it lasted.
We should take lessons from the French about European Directives. If they don't like them they all get their tractors out till the authorities forget all about it. Police just shrug their shoulders


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

cabby said:


> I am not posting any further on this topic.the answer is there, but it seems no one likes it. :roll: :roll:
> 
> cabby


I am with cabby on this. As I posted earlier.
No tax disc on display = offence simple.

Dave p


----------



## raynipper

I have no axe to grind here as all my vehicles are French reg.

But if the RFL (Tax disc) is a revenue pure and simple. Why would another country's plod be bothered about collecting revenue for said country?

We have been told over and over about the A frame debate. Just because it's legal in UK doesn't make it legal in Spain. It's a UK rule.

So if the RFL rule is applicable in UK Spain should not be interested. imho.

Ray.


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

The main point is Ray that once the OP has landed in the UK without displaying a current tax disc an offence is being commited. This has no bearing on being driven in another country.
If tax disc is not displayed vehicle should be SORN. 
The only legal part of driving without a current disc being displayed is if the vehicle is being driven to an MOT station where an apointment has been made.
And one several hundred miles from the port of entry is frowned upon.
dave p


----------



## cabby

No Ray it is not just a tax revenue, it is a simple way to check that you have MOT and insurance.So if you get run into, there is a fair chance you will be covered by their insurance rather than your own.

cabby

I know, but this was a change of direction so I posted. :lol: :lol:


----------



## raynipper

I accept what your saying Dave and Cabby.
But I still can't see foreign plod acting as a tax collector or IR Grass. Don't kinda see it happening.

Yes when you get on UK roads all bets are off.

Ray.


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

ray quote:Yes when you get on UK roads all bets are off.

Thats all we are stating.

Get off the ferry/chunnel and Number plate recognition cameras are in use.
I would not risk it.
From car tax rules dvla

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10021514

If you don't tax or SORN your vehicle
The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) carries out a computer check each month, as well as roadside checks to identify those vehicles without a valid tax disc. You could face an automatic penalty of £80 as well as a minimum fine of £1000. Your vehicle could be clamped, impounded or even crushed.

dave p


----------



## Stanner

cabby said:


> ...it is an offence to keep a vehicle on a public road which is not displaying a valid tax disc, even if you've applied for it and are waiting for it to arrive'.
> 
> you have to be on a UK road before you get to and from the ferry.
> 
> cabby


Not a "public road" (which can be privately owned and maintained) but open to the "public" - but "a road maintained at public expense".

Different things.


----------



## grizzlyj

Penquin said:


> you can legally drive to a *pre-booked* MoT without a current MoT test certificate and without VED. The critical thing is that it is pre-booked so that if you are stopped you can show the booking exists. That was confirmed by Dougie a former traffic cop as acceptable to traffic police.
> 
> Dave


Just to confirm the confirmation, Dougie said you can drive to a pre booked MOT without a current MOT certificate but only on the day of the test, which would also have to be the day of the ferry back to the UK.

From

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-106558.html&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=mot&start=30

Page 4 3rd post

Jason


----------



## cabby

oh dear stanner, are you drinking from the same cup as Ray. :roll: :roll: just how would one get from a public road to a public road. I was quoting from the dvla page verbaitum.

I do belive Ray it is a 1994 road traffic act. please dont ask me to look it up.

Belgium expect you to be UK road legal in their country when visiting, so does the rest of the EU. I am just too dam tired to bother trying to find the piece of legalise just for the sake of proving it to you. have a go yourself.

cabby


----------



## raynipper

OK ................. 1984 and 'The Prisoner' ............ square pegs in round holes, tough luck. Compliance is obligatory with no excuses.

Only the 'controllers' are allowed to make mistakes. Progress eh?

Ray.


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

Simple way of looking at it.
You pay to use a car park. Don`t pay and risk a fine
You pay to use the roads. Don`t pay and you risk a fine.

Dave p


----------



## Addie

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> The main point is Ray that once the OP has landed in the UK without displaying a current tax disc an offence is being commited.


In fairness Dave, if you tax your vehicle online you are given a 5 day exemption from the 'failure to display' legislation. So if you taxed it in Calais you'd be fine:

"If you use the electronic vehicle licensing service
or tax by post at the end of the month, there's
now an exemption for not displaying a tax disc.
This exemption covers the first five working days of
the month to allow time for the new disc to arrive
in the post. While you are still waiting for your tax
disc you will need to display your current tax disc.
The exemption only applies if applications are
made before the current tax disc or SORN expires."

Taken from:

http://m.direct.gov.uk/syndicationC...ection=1&utn=3e64860f42e3418b80fc201202220754

I'm on the fence, however.


----------



## raynipper

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> Simple way of looking at it.
> You pay to use a car park. Don`t pay and risk a fine
> You pay to use the roads. Don`t pay and you risk a fine.
> 
> Dave p


No argument there Dave.
But out of the UK?????

So many people are so scared of not having RFL while out of the UK.

Ray.


----------



## Addie

raynipper said:


> So many people are so scared of not having RFL while out of the UK.





raynipper said:


> I have no axe to grind here as all my vehicles are French reg.


Is this a classic case of 'do as I say, not as I do' ?

:roll:


----------



## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

Somewhere in the grey matter at the back of my head I can recall the release of DVLA information to continentals who do not share our respect for personal information being a bit of a stumbling block to this cross border following up of offenders abroad. 
Is there anyone who has personal experience of being tracked back from a continental motoring offence?
Having said that I realise that anyone can apply for driver information, but the suggestion has been that some direct link exists. Any of the recently retired police officers on the forum know what currently happens with this?


----------



## erneboy

In the absence of a consensus each of us will have decide what we consider the situation to be. 

What Thieawin said brings me back to what I thought at the beginning of this thread and until I see actual evidence of someone having been prosecuted for not having UK road tax or MOT while abroad I will stick with that, Alan.


----------



## eddied

Traveller_HA5_3DOM said:


> eddied said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eddied said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigles said:
> 
> 
> 
> I phoned the DVLA and they have told me that you have to have valid road tax, MoT and insurance in your country of origin to be legal in Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> That is the situation throughout the EU in a nutshell. The smart thing to do is try to work things out so that insurance/MOT and tax disc all fall due on the same/similar dates. Any vehicle in the EU must be road legal in its country of origin.
> 
> saluti,
> eddied
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting Eddie and often said by many people, it's just that I can't find a word about any actual legislation requiring this anywhere, nor can I fine any reports of anyone anywhere being prosecuted for not having UK tax in any other country.
> 
> I would really appreciate seeing the legislation or even just one credible, verifiable report to support this contention, Alan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here you go
> http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/taxation/l31033_en.htm
> 
> lots more where that came from
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eddied
> Did you come across in your searches whether or not any of the EU actually followed this 1983 directive and introduced legislation supporting it, as the directive suggested?
Click to expand...

Yes, as far as I'm concerned it is the Italian response that interested me re vehicles/insurance/driving licenses. I could quote you several pages of Italian legislation adopting directives that have allowed me over the years to maintain my UK driving license, and UK reg. vehicles here in Italy. All perfectly legal. I did have to fight my way for the license in 1998. Had it confiscated; produced the relative legislation to the Prefect in Naples; and received a personal apology for their incompetence and my license back. I do know from experience that most German, French, and Spanish legislation is up to date.
saluti,
eddied


----------



## raynipper

Addie said:


> raynipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> So many people are so scared of not having RFL while out of the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> raynipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no axe to grind here as all my vehicles are French reg.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is this a classic case of 'do as I say, not as I do' ?
> 
> :roll:
Click to expand...

Yep Addie.
We cashed in our RFL at least 4 times a year after visiting family in UK in our UK reged Citroen. Ran for at least 10 years like this before getting the car French reged. 
Even explained to DVLC when they brought in SORN and they accepted our pattern.

Many of our friends then and now keep their UK reged cars fully taxed even though they may only go back to UK one or two times a year. 
Then they complain about the cost of the ferry and fuel prices in UK.

:roll: :roll:

Ray.


----------



## eddied

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> The main point is Ray that once the OP has landed in the UK without displaying a current tax disc an offence is being commited. This has no bearing on being driven in another country.
> If tax disc is not displayed vehicle should be SORN.
> The only legal part of driving without a current disc being displayed is if the vehicle is being driven to an MOT station where an apointment has been made.
> And one several hundred miles from the port of entry is frowned upon.
> dave p


Why make life difficult for yourself? My solution was to have an email appointment with a garage in Dover for am MOT; drive from the Chunnel terminal in Folkestone; get my MOT certificate; pop into a nearby Post Office with MOT certificate and Insurance and get Tax Disc - job done. I could then trundle around UK/Europe for 12 months no worries.
saluti,
eddied


----------



## Stanner

Addie said:


> DTPCHEMICALS said:
> 
> 
> 
> The main point is Ray that once the OP has landed in the UK without displaying a current tax disc an offence is being commited.
> 
> 
> 
> In fairness Dave, if you tax your vehicle online you are given a 5 day exemption from the 'failure to display' legislation. So if you taxed it in Calais you'd be fine:
> 
> "If you use the electronic vehicle licensing service
> or tax by post at the end of the month, there's
> now an exemption for not displaying a tax disc.
> This exemption covers the first five working days of
> the month to allow time for the new disc to arrive
> in the post. While you are still waiting for your tax
> disc you will need to display your current tax disc.
> The exemption only applies if applications are
> made before the current tax disc or SORN expires."
> 
> Taken from:
> 
> http://m.direct.gov.uk/syndicationC...ection=1&utn=3e64860f42e3418b80fc201202220754
> 
> I'm on the fence, however.
Click to expand...

That only applies is you are renewing VED immediately NOT if there is a gap.


----------



## Stanner

cabby said:


> oh dear stanner, are you drinking from the same cup as Ray. :roll: :roll: just how would one get from a public road to a public road. I was quoting from the dvla page verbaitum.
> 
> I do belive Ray it is a 1994 road traffic act. please dont ask me to look it up.
> 
> Belgium expect you to be UK road legal in their country when visiting, so does the rest of the EU. I am just too dam tired to bother trying to find the piece of legalise just for the sake of proving it to you. have a go yourself.
> 
> cabby


You've lost me on several points, but I speak from experience.

I used to live in a privately maintained (i.e. unadopted) road and because of parking problems kept an (at times) untaxed, uninsured and un-MOTed Commer motorcaravan in front of my house and at times my neighbour had various untaxed, uninsured and un-MOTed cars parked outside his house.

We had a run in with a "new boy on the block" copper who asked to see the documents for the vehicles. He insisted that as the road was open at all times to the public it was a "public road" even though the "public" paid nothing toward maintaining it.

We told him to go forth and multiply it was our land maintained at our expense and that the public could drive down the road was their good luck and if it was going to be a problem we'd put up a gate.

In the end the case came to court both of us charged with no tax no MOT no insurance and I was defended under the RAC legal service.

The upshot was my lawyer pointed out that the road was NOT maintained at public expense and so VED was not required, that was accepted without question - case dismissed.

Insurance and MOT different matter though neither of those refer to "maintained" just "public road" i.e. one to which the public have free access (not closed one day per year!) so insurance and MOT were required. Result was we were convicted of both offences BUT magistrates took a very dim view of the smartarse's actions and refused to impose anything other than the minimum penalty they could get away with. No MOT was just dismissed but no insurance is an "absolute" offence - the only question is do you have insurance yes or no? If no there is no option but to convict - it cannot be simply dismissed so we were fined £15 each - BUT - we should have had a minimum of 3 points as well. The bench refused to impose them.

There you are a "public road" - so insurance and MOT required, but NOT maintained at public expense so no VED required.

OK?

:wink:


----------



## cabby

Stanner, Maybe I misled you, I was comparing with the op, to get to and from the area you will need rfl , be it a private public road or a different country.
We cannot agree that you need the RFL abroad apparantly, but we do all agree that you need it in the UK, so when you drive to and from the port you have to have it.
that is where my comparison is to your situation.
but thank you for your informative post.


As to the OP, the most simplest and convenient answer for them is to take out a new MOT and RFL just before leaving.the cost will be cheaper than a fine should that happen.

cabby


----------



## erneboy

Yes Cabby. I needed an MOT when we went home last June and then I had it done again in August to maximise the time we could stay away.

You can MOT as often as you want to. A few extra quid for peace of mind was worth it I thought. It still only gives a year maximum though, Alan.


----------



## Addie

Stanner said:


> That only applies is you are renewing VED immediately NOT if there is a gap.


That's not correct, Stanner.

You can no longer allow a tax disc to 'expire' without placing the vehicle on SORN or re-taxing it as you are issued an automatic fine.

Therefore if you are abroad and SORN the vehicle you can re-tax it at any point before the SORN expires (as it needs to be renewed periodically) you benefit from the 5 day exemption, hence:

"The exemption only applies if applications are
made before the current tax disc *or SORN expires.*"


----------



## erneboy

The DVLA say you can only SORN a vehicle which is in the UK although it seems the form doesn't actually ask, Alan.


----------



## raynipper

No it doesn't ask Alan.
I have just SORNed the Jeep I bought in UK at Christmas. It's now in France and I do intend to register it here. 
As and when the reg is complete I guess the French authorities will send back the V5.

Ray.


----------



## Stanner

Addie said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> That only applies is you are renewing VED immediately NOT if there is a gap.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not correct, Stanner.
> 
> You can no longer allow a tax disc to 'expire' without placing the vehicle on SORN or re-taxing it as you are issued an automatic fine.
> 
> Therefore if you are abroad and SORN the vehicle you can re-tax it at any point before the SORN expires (as it needs to be renewed periodically) you benefit from the 5 day exemption, hence:
> 
> "The exemption only applies if applications are
> made before the current tax disc *or SORN expires.*"
Click to expand...

I'd never seen the SORN bit before, when I read it somewhere there was no mention of the SORN option and I'm fairly certain it said it didn't apply if SORN was in place. It was a while ago and things change I guess.


----------



## erneboy

Sorry, obviously I meant to say the DVLA say you can't SORN a vehicle which is not in the UK, Alan.


----------



## Stanner

erneboy said:


> Sorry, obviously I meant to say the DVLA say you can't SORN a vehicle which is not in the UK, Alan.


The DVLA say many different things in many different places.

For Instance they say this

"Tax online or by phone

Use the reference number on your V11 reminder or Registration Certificate to renew your tax from the fifth day of the month in which the current tax disc expires. The tax disc can only be sent to the address shown on your V11 reminder or Registration Certificate. You could ask a friend or relative to post this to you at an address abroad."

Then further down the page they say this.

"Send a tax disc to an address abroad

Supply the foreign address in a covering letter and include this with your tax application. Your Great Britain (GB) address must be written on the V10 'Application for a tax disc'."

Which is hardly consistent with the first statement.

They then say..............

"Using your vehicle when you return from abroad

If you take your vehicle abroad, it must be continuously taxed. When you return from abroad, you must have a valid tax disc to be able to drive your vehicle home or you'll be committing an offence. There are no concessions."


----------



## raynipper

Stanner said:


> Using your vehicle when you return from abroad
> 
> If you take your vehicle abroad, it must be continuously taxed. When you return from abroad, you must have a valid tax disc to be able to drive your vehicle home or you'll be committing an offence. There are no concessions." [/color]


Balls ............................... Ed Balls..!!!!!

Ray.


----------



## cabby

Dear Sir

Thank you for your enquiry. Clearly, legislation will vary from one country to another but, as a general guide, when a UK registered vehicle is being driven abroad, the driver does so as a "visitor" and the general requirement, certainly for most EC countries, is that as long as the vehicle is legal in its home country (i.e. has a Road Fund Licence, MOT if applicable, appropriate insurance etc), it can be used in other countries on a temporary basis. However, if it does not comply with the requirements of its home country, then there is no reason for visitor status to be extended. On that basis, if it does not have UK road fund licence, it is not legal in the UK so it would follow that it is not legal abroad either unless the driver intends to register the vehicle abroad and comply with all requirements specific to that country.

Best wishes

Motor Lawyers
Website: www.motorlawyers.co.uk
Fax: 087 0705 9089

cabby


----------



## eddied

cabby said:


> Dear Sir
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry. Clearly, legislation will vary from one country to another but, as a general guide, when a UK registered vehicle is being driven abroad, the driver does so as a "visitor" and the general requirement, certainly for most EC countries, is that as long as the vehicle is legal in its home country (i.e. has a Road Fund Licence, MOT if applicable, appropriate insurance etc), it can be used in other countries on a temporary basis. However, if it does not comply with the requirements of its home country, then there is no reason for visitor status to be extended. On that basis, if it does not have UK road fund licence, it is not legal in the UK so it would follow that it is not legal abroad either unless the driver intends to register the vehicle abroad and comply with all requirements specific to that country.
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Motor Lawyers
> Website: www.motorlawyers.co.uk
> Fax: 087 0705 9089
> 
> cabby


  exactly what I've been saying since the year dot.


----------



## raynipper

OK Cabby.
I can't argue with that. I had better go get a UK TV license then.

Ray.


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

Ray, thats a good point. Do you receive BBC stations,
both TV and radio.

I shall e mail the chancellor asap. :lol: 

Dave p


----------



## cabby

Hi Ray, would you like me to find out for you. at your own risk of course. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 


cabby

Just a thought, does anyone remember people using beer bottle labels as tax discs in the good old days.Worthington ale springs to mind.


----------



## raynipper

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> Ray, thats a good point. Do you receive BBC stations,
> both TV and radio.
> 
> I shall e mail the chancellor asap. :lol: Dave p


Stuff the Chancellor and the UK Treasury. If they hadn't of been such a bunch of incompetents I would have enough money to have a home in UK and make em chase me.

They can't wring any more outs me, blood that is.
Apart from that at my age I am exempt from a French TV license. Once again it's the apparatus and not the channels.

Ray.

Stuff em again.............. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


----------



## erneboy

cabby said:


> Dear Sir
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry. Clearly, legislation will vary from one country to another but, as a general guide, when a UK registered vehicle is being driven abroad, the driver does so as a "visitor" and the general requirement, certainly for most EC countries, is that as long as the vehicle is legal in its home country (i.e. has a Road Fund Licence, MOT if applicable, appropriate insurance etc), it can be used in other countries on a temporary basis. However, if it does not comply with the requirements of its home country, then there is no reason for visitor status to be extended. On that basis, if it does not have UK road fund licence, it is not legal in the UK so it would follow that it is not legal abroad either unless the driver intends to register the vehicle abroad and comply with all requirements specific to that country.
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Motor Lawyers
> Website: www.motorlawyers.co.uk
> Fax: 087 0705 9089
> 
> cabby


I read that as being capable of supporting either view Cabby. It makes no mention at all of any law in any foreign country requiring UK motor tax or MOT. It makes an unsupported leap by saying, "it is not legal in the UK so it would follow that it is not legal abroad either" why would it follow? And then oddly qualifies that and allows a dispensation if, " the driver intends to register the vehicle abroad and comply with all requirements specific to that country. "

I would suggest that what the driver intends to do at some future date has no bearing on the topic. He is either driving legally or illegally at the moment in question.

It's legal to drive on the left in the UK, it does not follow that it's also legal to do that in France, nor will a driver be allowed to drive on the left in France if he assures Police that at some unspecified later date he intends to drive on the right, Alan.


----------



## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

cabby said:


> Dear Sir
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry. Clearly, legislation will vary from one country to another but, as a general guide, when a UK registered vehicle is being driven abroad, the driver does so as a "visitor" and the general requirement, certainly for most EC countries, is that as long as the vehicle is legal in its home country (i.e. has a Road Fund Licence, MOT if applicable, appropriate insurance etc), it can be used in other countries on a temporary basis. However, if it does not comply with the requirements of its home country, then there is no reason for visitor status to be extended. On that basis, if it does not have UK road fund licence, it is not legal in the UK so it would follow that it is not legal abroad either unless the driver intends to register the vehicle abroad and comply with all requirements specific to that country.
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Motor Lawyers
> Website: www.motorlawyers.co.uk
> Fax: 087 0705 9089
> 
> cabby


Sorry Cabby
No Idea who Motor Lawyers are but from their references to Road Fund Licence I would not consider them very up to date with current legislation.

The ROAD FUND LICENCE has not existed for over 40 years now.
Any solicitor worth his salt advising on motor law would know this.
It is a VEHICLE EXCISE LICENSE and has been for over 40 years


----------



## thieawin

cabby said:


> Dear Sir
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry. Clearly, legislation will vary from one country to another but, as a general guide, when a UK registered vehicle is being driven abroad, the driver does so as a "visitor" and the general requirement, certainly for most EC countries, is that as long as the vehicle is legal in its home country (i.e. has a Road Fund Licence, MOT if applicable, appropriate insurance etc), it can be used in other countries on a temporary basis. However, if it does not comply with the requirements of its home country, then there is no reason for visitor status to be extended. On that basis, if it does not have UK road fund licence, it is not legal in the UK so it would follow that it is not legal abroad either unless the driver intends to register the vehicle abroad and comply with all requirements specific to that country.
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Motor Lawyers
> Website: www.motorlawyers.co.uk
> Fax: 087 0705 9089
> 
> cabby


But I am not aware of any legislation in any EU country I have visited that makes it an offence in that country to use a UK registered vehicle without UK tax or MOT so that you can be prosecuted in the country you are visiting.

SORN is clearly different as the vehicle is not to be used on a road.

These are all fine points and it is always better to be safe

Your problem is only going to arise

a. If you out stay the temporary import limit in the country you are visting
b. On return to UK unless you are going directly to MOT without passing MOT
c. If a claim arises and the insurers take the point


----------



## eddied

French traffic cops made it quite clear to me at St. Avold that if I was still in France with an expired MOT I would be fined, (they dont go in for prosecuting, just impose road side fines)


----------



## cabby

don't shoot the messenger, :roll: :roll: the OP has asked a question, I have tried to find an answer on the net. 50% of you just point out where the cracks are, go on just say it is only 48%. :lol: :lol: 
should we not be doing our best to find the correct answer.even if it is only for future refernce. so stop the nit picking and let us find the answer.A prize for whoever can qualify his answer.

cabby


----------



## erneboy

Cabby surely nit picking or, as I see it examining everything which is said on the topic, is exactly what we must do.

If we weren't going to do that we might as well have stopped the discussion when the first answer was given.

It's only by examining every aspect that we can move forward, although my personal view is that as things stand there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.

My reaction to what Eddie just posted is that of course no-one likes to be warned by a Police Officer but what a cop says and what a cop can actually do might be two entirely different things. I freely admit though that I would not want to be the test case, Alan.


----------



## bigles

Thank you!


----------



## cabby

yes by all means, but also find something concrete as well.we need to be constructivel.its all very well saying that the information in the post is not right tells us why and what it should be.No wonder it is so blooming long.99 comments.

cabby

getting frustrated because my glasses have broken and i have keep doing corrections.
should have gone to spec savers. :roll: :roll:


----------



## Stanner

eddied said:


> French traffic cops made it quite clear to me at St. Avold that if I was still in France with an expired MOT I would be fined, (they dont go in for prosecuting, just impose road side fines)


But surely an expired MOT is a different matter from an expired VED disc?

It is the equivalent of the French contrôle technique - and thus a legal requirement in France, what is the French equivalent of the VED disc?


----------



## cabby

the French did away with them some time ago.considered too royalist i expect.

cabby


----------



## erneboy

My feeling is that the nature of the discussion and the different jurisdictions involved mean that we can only be absolutely certain we are legal in other countries if we obey all UK laws regardless of which country we are in, so tax and MOT.

This could be resolved if there were prosecutions in other countries but if the laws in those countries don't require UK tax and MOT there won't be prosecutions and we will not have certainty.

For those who say laws in other countries do require UK tax and MOT, fine, please show me examples of prosecutions and I will accept what you say, Alan.


----------



## raynipper

cabby said:


> the French did away with them some time ago.considered too royalist i expect. cabby


I read in an English/French newspaper here that it was costing as much to administer the collection of road tax as it brought in.

You had to buy the Vignette at any local Tabac and every different engine power had a different charge. You also had to buy the Vignette between the middle of November and middle of December for the following year or be fined an extra 20% of the charge.

This was before the variable RFL costs in UK.

Ray.


----------



## eddied

Once you have crossed the Channel the definitive answer lies in EU directives, and the local legislation applying a directive. There are no ifs and buts. Remember, or take note if you didnt know, that France, Italy, Spain etc. have very specific Civil and Penal written codes. No 'common law' or court cases to establish precedent. They don't have to prove you guilty; you have to prove your innocence! 
saluti,
eddied


----------



## erneboy

Perhaps we can agree on this.

The really daft thing is that the problem could be easily solved. It only needs EU member countries to agree to accept that vehicles from one country can be tested even in some other member countries.

The tests may vary a bit, and we know the required frequency does but surely in modern Europe the Governments could trust that the tests in at least some other countries are adequate to address safety concerns.

I can't see it happening any time soon though, Alan.


----------



## thieawin

The answer is that we will not get a definitive answer without court decisions in each country and they may be different

To eddied the directives do not create a criminal offence just the circumstances in which each country must allow vehicles from another into their territory and the prove innocence remark about civil code countries is just not true, it is an investigative rather than an adversarial process and precedent does have bearing on interpretation of the codes 

Given that we can MOT in advance at any time so can be away for 12 months without need pan europe testing is not needed. If you are away for more than 12 months you are supposed to export, but how that is enforced by UK is another matter, but it is relevant to the territory you are visiting which may allow only 6 months temporary presence before requiring re registration.

It is the loal laws that govern when we are abroad, not UK ones, but UK ones may have a carry over effect.

Tax disc you can do on line and it can be sent out to you. You have to have one to avoid a UK fine anyway

These two are things that the territory you are visiting really will not be interested in however, but you can, and, for safety, should comply and must comply for tax in UK

Insurance you must have. You can now insure a vehicle registered in one territory with an insurer in another.

Remember you must have insurance and a tax disc if your vehicle is not SORNed or you get a fine in the UK.

I would say my view is a SORNed vehicle cannot be driven abroad.


----------



## peribro

I don't recall if EC Directive 83/182 has already been mentioned in this thread but it seems clear to me that it requires that a UK registered vehicle must possess a valid UK road tax if it is to be driven in the EC without incurring a liability to pay local equivalent taxes. According to the DVLA, "European Union (EU) vehicles which are circulating temporarily within or between community Member States are allowed under EC Directive 83/182, to be used on public roads without the need to register or pay duties in the host country. These provisions limit visits to six months in a twelve-month period and the vehicle must comply with the registration and licensing requirements of its home country." The EU document http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/com_en.pdf discusses this on page 13.

Therefore whilst an owner can't be prosecuted for not having valid UK road tax whilst driving in the EU, he / she will be liable for any country specific taxes and any penalties that may apply for not having paid these.

As others have pointed out, Dougie investigated the MOT issue in depth and my understanding is that a valid MOT is not required in order to drive in other EU countries. However on returning to the UK, the car must be driven straight to a testing station for a pre-booked appointment. Also it is necessary to have an MOT to renew a vehicle's road tax (if over 3 years old), so if the latter expires whilst abroad then an MOT is going to be necessary. In addition some insurers make it a pre-condition that a vehicle has a valid MOT certificate. However I have no doubt that if you show an expired MOT certificate to a French or Spanish policeman, then he'll probably fine you for good measure!


----------



## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

Very true Ernie but the one thing that all countries will be in agreement with and all Insurance companies is that your vehicle must be fit and safe to use on the roads without the potential to cause danger to other road users. 
The testing regime, be it three, two or one year only pays lip service to this and attempts to focus users attention on the major safety features at a regular interval. 
The reality of motoring law is that, every single time a vehicle is taken onto the road the law insists that the user and driver ensure that ALL of the regulations are fully complied with. 
Waving a 24hour old test certificate at Mr Plod or Mr Magistrate will not be considered an excuse!


----------



## erneboy

True, but equally not being able to wave one may cause problems, that's what I had in mind.

I don't see why there can't be a few MOT approved garages in other countries, Alan.


----------



## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

Yes it's strange that we accept foreign issued driving licences that have the potential to cause plenty of grief and yet we cannot accept Test certificates for vehicles by foreign testing stations. It would be a logical step once everyone gets on to an electronic system with an agreed standard format.

What a I dreaming about, this is the EU our ministers are much to busy spending their exe's to do something practical and useful.


----------



## erneboy

thieawin said:


> Given that we can MOT in advance at any time so can be away for 12 months without need pan europe testing is not needed. If you are away for more than 12 months you are supposed to export, but how that is enforced by UK is another matter, but it is relevant to the territory you are visiting which may allow only 6 months temporary presence before requiring re registration.


And if you are travelling around many countries should you attempt to import it into each one? That solution won't work in practice. There are many problems in importing a vehicle to another country, not least that you may need an address there or to prove residency.

The fact is that under the current arrangements there is no certain legal way to travel in a vehicle which is old enough to require MOT for more than a year.

If you try to do so you will end up driving on foreign roads without your UK MOT and possibly without UK road tax.

I think we should be free to travel for more than a year if we want to and all it needs is for vehicle testing elsewhere to be acceptable, even if that is only allowed temporarily till we return to the UK. The home country need not accept the foreign certificate, we can be required to obtain an MOT as soon as we return to the UK, Alan.


----------



## bigles

Having been told by the DVLA that to use a vehicle overseas it must be taxed, MoT'd and insured in the country of origin my insurance company has quoted thus:

_'I can advise you that the Underwriting Department have confirmed that it is not a condition of the policy that your Motorhome has a valid UK road tax licence. However, they recommend that you contact the DVLA with regards to using a vehicle abroad without valid tax disc.

In addition they would bring your attention to the section "General conditions applicable to all of the policy", part 3- YOUR responsibility, section a) taking care of YOUR VEHICLE.'_

So it would seem that the insurance company don't insist on road tax but do defer the situation to the DVLA requirements, which as stated above, do require tax.

So I would guess that it's up to the owner to decide if it's worth taking the chance of the insurance company using the above statement to side step any claims.

That said I did have a minor bump in France last year that didn't involve the Police but did cause damage to a car (my fault) and the insurance company (so far) have not asked for evidence of road tax or MoT.


----------



## Addie

bigles said:


> Having been told by the DVLA that to use a vehicle overseas it must be taxed, MoT'd and insured in the country of origin my insurance company has quoted thus:
> 
> _'I can advise you that the Underwriting Department have confirmed that it is not a condition of the policy that your Motorhome has a valid UK road tax licence. However, they recommend that you contact the DVLA with regards to using a vehicle abroad without valid tax disc.
> 
> In addition they would bring your attention to the section "General conditions applicable to all of the policy", part 3- YOUR responsibility, section a) taking care of YOUR VEHICLE.'_
> 
> So it would seem that the insurance company don't insist on road tax but do defer the situation to the DVLA requirements, which as stated above, do require tax.
> 
> So I would guess that it's up to the owner to decide if it's worth taking the chance of the insurance company using the above statement to side step any claims.
> 
> That said I did have a minor bump in France last year that didn't involve the Police but did cause damage to a car (my fault) and the insurance company (so far) have not asked for evidence of road tax or MoT.


Can I ask what insurance company is?

The insurance company do not need to ask for evidence of your TAX/MOT status, they can find this out online.

What is section a) taking care of your vehicle and what does this have to do (if anything) with the tax status?

Can I ask if you asked them about MOT?

Does sound like good news from a tax situation as my only real concern is the insurance aspect.


----------



## erneboy

Insurance is not invalidated when a vehicle is not taxed, Alan.


----------



## bigles

The insurance company is Saga.

Originally they said the vehicle has to be taxed and MoT'd whilst abroad, but when challenged they said they would contact the underwriters, and this was their response.

But by adding the mention of the DVLA they seem to be covering themselves.


----------



## Addie

bigles said:


> The insurance company is Saga.
> 
> Originally they said the vehicle has to be taxed and MoT'd whilst abroad, but when challenged they said they would contact the underwriters, and this was their response.
> 
> But by adding the mention of the DVLA they seem to be covering themselves.


Saga are pretty good - they provide cover in The Balakans, Albania and some places other UK insurance companies won't touch.



erneboy said:


> Insurance is not invalidated when a vehicle is not taxed, Alan.


I have in writing from an underwriter at Allianz, that they consider an untaxed (and thus SORN) vehicle uninsured for use in UK or abroad. This was in February 2011 and is the basis of my position on this matter.

Other insurance companies might be different, hence why it is prudent to enquire and obtain confirmation in writing before doing so.


----------



## erneboy

If your insurance is invalid without tax you will always have to buy a new tax disc before the old one expires. If you don't you will never again have valid insurance and thus never again be able to tax the vehicle.

As you know Addie Insurance is a contract and you have a copy of the contract document. Can you please quote the passage in that document which requires your vehicle to be taxed.

It may be that as you asked the question and have been given a written answer that this alters the terms of your insurance as detailed in your policy document. That will not be the case for those of us who have not asked the question as in most if not all cases we have no such clause being applied to us, Alan.


----------



## Rosbotham

erneboy said:


> Insurance is not invalidated when a vehicle is not taxed, Alan.


That depends on the insurer. To quote from the MHF Key Facts Document (Comfort will be same), final bullet

_The motor caravan must at all times have a valid MOT Certificate (unless not required due to age of vehicle) & current UK road fund licence disc_


----------



## erneboy

erneboy said:


> ............... as in most if not all cases we have no such clause being applied to us, Alan.


OK only in most cases Paul. Asking the question brings the possibility of getting an answer we don't want to hear.

So anyone insured with MHF has the leeway entitlement discussed earlier in this thread removed and must retax before the old tax runs out. They must not do it afterwards as that would be fraud. They would be using an invalid certificate of insurance to obtain road tax, Alan.


----------



## Addie

erneboy said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ............... as in most if not all cases we have no such clause being applied to us, Alan.
> 
> 
> 
> OK only in most cases Paul. Asking the question brings the possibility of getting an answer we don't want to hear.
> 
> So anyone insured with MHF has the leeway entitlement discussed earlier in this thread removed and must retax before the old tax runs out. They must not do it afterwards as that would be fraud. They would be using an invalid certificate of insurance to obtain road tax, Alan.
Click to expand...

I know what answer I don't want to hear, that is "I listened to Alan off MHF who told me I don't need tax and now my claim for my £30k motorhome has been rejected".

We all know how insurance companies like to wrangle out of claims. Sure, I have no doubt you could fight your case - but why cause yourself unnecessary stress come claim time by doing so?

I'm a great believer in keeping things simple. I would rather "ask the question" and get an answer regardless of "wanting to hear it" or not.

You are really starting to split hairs now though. While I take your point that if a condition of insurance that the vehicle is taxed then to tax an untaxed vehicle might 'technically' means the insurance certificate you are using to tax the vehicle is invalid for the purpose of a claim but for the purpose of taxing the vehicle it shows there is an active policy.

The point I am making, and will continue to make, is that you cannot continue to advise on a public forum that members don't need tax. As RB has already demonstrated MHF/Comfort insurance require it and they won't be alone.

The answer is "check with your insurance company and if in doubt ask", not the madness that is "don't ask, because you don't want to hear the answer". This isn't about me being right - I've already said it varies from company to company - it's about looking after the interests of those willing to take at face value the information on a public forum.


----------



## erneboy

I have never once said that people don't require tax, on the contrary I have repeatedly recommended it. 

You should withdraw that unfounded accusation.

If people take what I have said at face value they will maintain Insurance, tax and MOT, Alan.


----------



## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

Rosbotham said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Insurance is not invalidated when a vehicle is not taxed, Alan.
> 
> 
> 
> That depends on the insurer. To quote from the MHF Key Facts Document (Comfort will be same), final bullet
> 
> _The motor caravan must at all times have a valid MOT Certificate (unless not required due to age of vehicle) & current UK road fund licence disc_
Click to expand...

Strange how a name persists!!
The term Road Fund Licence ceased in 1955 when the present system of Vehicle Excise Licence was introduced. The money collected had not been solely used for financing road building and repairs since the 1920s and even Churchill (the Winston one) was against RFL as he thought the public might try to claim ownership of the roads if they thought they had paid for them.
Quite how references to RFL can be used in legal documents and what weight they would carry if put to the test decries belief.
So lets all be clear on this, Road Fund Licences ceased to exist over 50 years ago so good luck to anyone who tries to obtain one. Closest you will get is one of those old beer bottle labels that were often used at that time.


----------



## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

This has proven harder to track down than the Holy Grail http://www.motorhomefacts.com/images/icon/icon17.gif 
Parliamentary Briefing Paper Louise Butcher May 2011 
Do not waste to much time reading it all just go to the last paragraph. 
Whilst it is primarily about foreign vehicles coming into the UK it does set out the government views on the exchange of information and reciprocal arrangements. 
It is a little like this breath test in France the constant reiteration of it seems to have the desired effect without the need to bring the legislation into effect. 
It seems like as far back as 18th May 1956 a certain James С. WARDROP 
on behalf of the ggovermentof the time signed an agreement Subject to ratification Convetion for taxation of road vehicles for private use in International Traffic 
No trace found of the ratification found to date. However this was one of the 'Geneva' agreements that would have almost certainly have been ratified by our parliament


----------



## thieawin

Traveller_HA5_3DOM said:


> This has proven harder to track down than the Holy Grail http://www.motorhomefacts.com/images/icon/icon17.gif
> Parliamentary Briefing Paper Louise Butcher May 2011
> Do not waste to much time reading it all just go to the last paragraph.
> Whilst it is primarily about foreign vehicles coming into the UK it does set out the government views on the exchange of information and reciprocal arrangements.
> It is a little like this breath test in France the constant reiteration of it seems to have the desired effect without the need to bring the legislation into effect.
> It seems like as far back as 18th May 1956 a certain James С. WARDROP
> on behalf of the ggovermentof the time signed an agreement Subject to ratification Convetion for taxation of road vehicles for private use in International Traffic
> No trace found of the ratification found to date. However this was one of the 'Geneva' agreements that would have almost certainly have been ratified by our parliament


It's about exemption from import/customs duties not Vehicle Excise duty

For the EU it is replaced by the Directive anyway

There are lots of UN Conventions signed by the UK which have never been ratified by Westminster, Vienna Convention 1968 which governs vehicles and trailers in international circulation, ie A Frames


----------



## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

thieawin said:


> Traveller_HA5_3DOM said:
> 
> 
> 
> This has proven harder to track down than the Holy Grail http://www.motorhomefacts.com/images/icon/icon17.gif
> Parliamentary Briefing Paper Louise Butcher May 2011
> Do not waste to much time reading it all just go to the last paragraph.
> Whilst it is primarily about foreign vehicles coming into the UK it does set out the government views on the exchange of information and reciprocal arrangements.
> It is a little like this breath test in France the constant reiteration of it seems to have the desired effect without the need to bring the legislation into effect.
> It seems like as far back as 18th May 1956 a certain James С. WARDROP
> on behalf of the ggovermentof the time signed an agreement Subject to ratification Convetion for taxation of road vehicles for private use in International Traffic
> No trace found of the ratification found to date. However this was one of the 'Geneva' agreements that would have almost certainly have been ratified by our parliament
> 
> 
> 
> It's about exemption from import/customs duties not Vehicle Excise duty
> 
> For the EU it is replaced by the Directive anyway
> 
> There are lots of UN Conventions signed by the UK which have never been ratified by Westminster, Vienna Convention 1968 which governs vehicles and trailers in international circulation, ie A Frames
Click to expand...

An easy mistake to make.

I read the heading 
CONVENTION ON THE TAXATION OF ROAD VEHICLES FOR PRIVATE USE IN INTERNATIONAL TRAFFIC

Then assumed 
ARTICLE 2
Vehicles registered in the territory of one of the Contracting Parties, and vehicles allowed to be brought into circulation on such territory and exempted on that territory from the obligation to be registered, shall, when temporarily imported for private use in the territory of another Contracting Party, be exempted under the conditions laid down below from taxes and charges levied on the circulation or possession of vehicles in the territory of that Contracting Party. This exemption shall not apply to tolls or to taxes or charges on consumption

Was meaning that the Term used "on the circulation or possession of vehicles in the territory of that contracting party" was meaning vehicles being used in that country.
Then the last paragraph 
"This exemption shall not apply to tolls or to taxes or charges on consumption"
Was meaning no exemption to Toll charges and any fuel used.

What did you think these phrases meant?


----------



## jiwawa

Wow... I'm tired reading through (most!) of this!

Just to add my pen'orth:



erneboy said:


> Yes Cabby. I needed an MOT when we went home last June and then I had it done again in August to maximise the time we could stay away.
> 
> You can MOT as often as you want to. A few extra quid for peace of mind was worth it I thought. It still only gives a year maximum though, Alan.





thieawin said:


> Given that we can MOT in advance at any time so can be away for 12 months without need pan europe testing is not needed.


Like you, erneboy, I wanted to MOT in Aug/Sep having got the first one in March. I've been in touch with our folk in DVTA (NI's DVLA) and have been told that I _cannot_ MOT my van more than 3 months before its due date (and not more than _one_ month in advance for its very first MOT). It seems very strange that a government department is refusing to take money early, but that's definitely what he said.

Where was your MOT done, erneboy? And yours, thieawin?



peribro said:


> As others have pointed out, Dougie investigated the MOT issue in depth and my understanding is that a valid MOT is not required in order to drive in other EU countries. However on returning to the UK, the car must be driven straight to a testing station for a pre-booked appointment.


I was also told "... if your MOT expires whilst you are abroad then you cannot legally drive the vehicle back regardless of having an appointment booked and you cannot get the test carried out outside of the UK."

I wish I had confidence that someone somewhere knew the facts


----------



## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

Yes this constant voicing of opinions without legislative support has grown the thread to a repetitive bore.

Instead of keep voicing what YOU think the system is for Vehicle Excise Licences required abroad or MOTs needed whilst abroad, why not take the trouble to publish the references to the legislation that either makes it illegal or otherwise.


----------



## erneboy

I did mine in England Jean, the rules are different. I did say I never took the van for testing at home, Alan.


----------



## jiwawa

Traveller_HA5_3DOM said:


> Yes this constant voicing of opinions without legislative support has grown the thread to a repetitive bore.
> 
> Instead of keep voicing what YOU think the system is for Vehicle Excise Licences required abroad or MOTs needed whilst abroad, why not take the trouble to publish the references to the legislation that either makes it illegal or otherwise.


But I _did_ go to the horse's mouth so to speak - my info is from the staff in DVTA.

However, I know from experience that other staff in MOT centres have given me rubbish information - like insisting that the train weight was actually the max weight of the van.


----------



## erneboy

There is one thing which I think we all agree on.

You can't have an Mot done abroad and even if you could the UK would not recognise it. And that's it.



It's not as simple as asking questions because the answers differ depending on which authoritative source you ask, that's because they all look at it from their own perspective. 

To be absolutely sure you are legal stay insured, taxed and Mot'd.

Despite the fact that we have differing views on aspects of this we would all like to find a definitive answer where it's all neatly explained and the relevant laws are referred to. So far we haven't found it and I suspect that's because it does not exist. 

Only a small number of people want to do what we do and we haven't been considered, Alan.


----------



## eddied

Traveller_HA5_3DOM said:


> Yes this constant voicing of opinions without legislative support has grown the thread to a repetitive bore.
> 
> Instead of keep voicing what YOU think the system is for Vehicle Excise Licences required abroad or MOTs needed whilst abroad, why not take the trouble to publish the references to the legislation that either makes it illegal or otherwise.


During the course of this thread this information has in fact been posted. Would you like me for example to put up the whole 172 pages of the Italian Traffic Law 1992 which incorporates the relative EU directives?
saluti,
eddied.


----------



## Addie

erneboy said:


> I have never once said that people don't require tax, on the contrary I have repeatedly recommended it.


I would like to redress this, as Alan has been quite insistent via PM that I do so and feels very strongly that I have misrepresented him in this statement:

"I know what answer I don't want to hear, that is "I listened to Alan off MHF who told me I don't need tax and now my claim for my £30k motorhome has been rejected"."

I would like to amend this to

"I know what answer I don't want to hear, that is "I listened to Alan off MHF who told me I don't need tax *for my insurance to be valid* and now my claim for my £30k motorhome has been rejected".

Backed up by these statements:



erneboy said:


> Your Insurance is not invalidated if the vehicle is not taxed although many people seem to think it is, Alan.





erneboy said:


> Insurance is not invalidated when a vehicle is not taxed, Alan.


----------



## thieawin

There are no English laws which make it illegal to drive in another country without a tax disc or MOT, so we cannot quote anything.

I am not aware of any law in another EU country that makes it an offence in that country to drive a UK registered vehicle without UK tax disc or MOT

I am aware of conventions and EU directives which allow temporary presence or importation, but they do not create criminal offences or penalties.

As I said above IOM vehicles do not require an MOT so i do not have the problem

I have 30 years experience as an advocate, ie solicitor/barrister, in IOM and am also qualified in England and Ireland, South & North

I raise the question, has anyone ever been prosecuted in the EU for driving a UK registered vehicle that did not have tax and MOT, rather than for having a vehicle in unroadworthy condition or having permanently imported it but not re registered

MOT you can have one done at any time, you can have one every day. once the vehicle is three years old. There is no restriction.

The 1956 convention point I will return to


----------



## thieawin

The provision of the 1956 Convention which clearly indicates it is import and customs duties and VAT is Article 3

ARTICLE 3
1. This exemption shall be granted in the
territory of each Contracting Party so long as
the conditions laid down in the Customs regulations
in force in that territory for the temporary
admission, without payment, of import
duties and import taxes of vehicles covered by
article 2 are fulfilled.
2. Nevertheless, each Contracting Party
may limit the duration of this exemption to
three hundred and sixty-five consecutive days,
even if the vehicle is temporarily admitted
without payment of import duties and import
taxes for a longer period.

my emphasis added, nb I chose red, but it came out as rainbow!


----------



## thieawin

eddied said:


> Traveller_HA5_3DOM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes this constant voicing of opinions without legislative support has grown the thread to a repetitive bore.
> 
> Instead of keep voicing what YOU think the system is for Vehicle Excise Licences required abroad or MOTs needed whilst abroad, why not take the trouble to publish the references to the legislation that either makes it illegal or otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> During the course of this thread this information has in fact been posted. Would you like me for example to put up the whole 172 pages of the Italian Traffic Law 1992 which incorporates the relative EU directives?
> saluti,
> eddied.
Click to expand...

eddied, please don't publish it or link it, but maybe tell us if/where it creates an offence and a punishment to drive a UK registered vehicle in Italy which is otherwise road legal and compliant but has no valid UK tax or MOT. The offences are in England, there will already have been a fine for no tax.

I agree that if SORNed the vehicle is not registered in UK for road use so the temporary import exemptions do not apply and it must be fully compliant with Italian law on MOT equivalent and disc equivalent and be imported into and registered in Italy and that not complying does give rise to offences under the code


----------



## erneboy

Addie, the thrust of your attack on me was your claim that I had said that people did not need tax.

Nowhere in this thread did I say that. On the contrary I have repeatedly said that to be sure people should maintain Insurance, tax and Mot.

I was was wrong about insurance remaining valid without tax, in some cases, and as soon as Paul quoted from his policy I amended what I had said. Some insurance policies do require tax and some require mot and some possibly require both. That advances our understanding of the topic and I consider that worthwhile and therefore I am grateful to Paul for having corrected me.

My interest in this topic is in finding out what the laws of the countries we visit might require of us.

I regret that you have chosen to try and alter the thrust of your attack on me rather that agree that I never said that people should travel without tax. The thread is there for all to read should they care to, Alan.


----------



## cabby

As I expected with all the nit picking and dissagreement there would be tears before bedtime. :roll: :roll: :roll: 

cabby

to sum up then, so far no one has produced any legal document that states the vehicle we drive in the EU must have tax and Mot.
Although you must have it when in the UK to remain legal.
However the DVLA states that you should have.but no reference to which laws for us to read.
Are we all in agreement on this statement.

as a disclaimer, I have to admit that I have not read the last 3 pages, so sorry if I missed an important point.


----------



## Addie

cabby said:


> to sum up then, so far no one has produced any legal document that states the vehicle we drive in the EU must have tax and Mot.


Except for the fact that some insurance companies require tax as a condition of insurance - such as MHF / Comfort. Paul provided the evidence to the Key Facts document PDF. (I think this was in the last 3 pages :lol

While your certificate would likely still pass a roadside check in the EU and no prosecution appears to result from driving abroad without tax, in the event of a claim it MAY render your insurance invalid. That is why it is best we advise members to check before doing so.

That is my only concern when members ask this question is that, irrespective of DVLA argument, is that someone could potentially lose a payout in the event of a claim.

I have no interest in the MOT argument.


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## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

I realise page 5 was a way back in this discussion but with regard to insurance read http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-1205348.html#1205348
the tax disk would be impossible to achieve if you are needing an MOT because you cannot get one without an MOT.
At the risk of being repetative please see the difference between Third party cover that is the legal element of your policy and the extra elements that make up your Comprehensive cover which is something they will try to avoid paying out on if one of the minor conditions in their small print is not complied with.


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## eddied

I have been challenged at various points during this thread to produce legislation supporting my stance, which quite simply is:

you aint road legal in UK? You aint road legal anywhere else in EU either.

There are volumes upon volumes of legislation available. Here's a bit more of it. Get your google translators to work and enjoy. 
HEALTH WARNING. It'll do your head in!

http://www.patente.it/normativa/articolo-80-cds

http://www.italy-ontheroad.it/stranieri/ANCILLOTTI_150910.pdf

saluti,
eddied


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## Traveller_HA5_3DOM

Thanks for that eddied

the patemte.it doc was nothing to do with the subjects under discussion and the italy-ontheroad.it was a reiteration in italian of the Geneva convetion document from the 1950s.

Do you think with the wealth of Italian documents you have to hand there are any sections in them that pertain to the main subject of the need to maintain a current UK Vehicle Excise Licence when travelling in Italy?


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## erneboy

I would have thought that if there was such a legal requirement it would be surprising if there was not a document explaining it and detailing the legislation involved in English and each of the other languages used in the EU for people travelling from each country. It seems unreasonable to enter into agreements which place legal obligations upon us and neglect to explain in our own language and highlight under what legislation it's required.

It also seems unlikely that the UK Government would have an agreement which is not capable of being found in the English language.

Equally if it's EU legislation it should be available in English, Alan.


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## adonisito

On the back of my renewal statement with Comfort which I received yesterday it says in bold type " The motor caravan must at all times have a valid MOT certificate (unless not required due to age of vehicle) & current UK road fund licence tax disc"

Does this help ? I suppose it might if you are with Comfort.


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## peribro

cabby said:


> However the DVLA states that you should have.but no reference to which laws for us to read.
> Are we all in agreement on this statement.


No! I found reference to this statement by the DVLA (which I posted yesterday morning):
"European Union (EU) vehicles which are circulating temporarily within or between community Member States are allowed under EC Directive 83/182, to be used on public roads without the need to register or pay duties in the host country. These provisions limit visits to six months in a twelve-month period and the vehicle must comply with the registration and licensing requirements of its home country."

Therefore you need to read EC Directive 83/182. However the key point is that it doesn't, per se, require a UK registered vehicle to be taxed when it is being driven outside the UK; it does however state that if it is not so taxed then it may not be exempt from any similar taxes, duties and levies in any EU country that you are visiting. If you are sure that Spain or France or any other country doesn't have any such levies, taxes or similar duties then there is not a problem as there are no taxes to be exempt from. Hence your vehicle does not need to be taxed in the UK.


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## jiwawa

erneboy said:


> I did mine in England Jean, the rules are different. I did say I never took the van for testing at home, Alan.


Sorry I missed that in the course of 15 pages Alan! So to clarify, despite thieawin's post -



thieawin said:


> MOT you can have one done at any time, you can have one every day. once the vehicle is three years old. There is no restriction.


- this does not apply in NI, where you can get your new MOT only within 3 months of the renewal date. I have no idea what the thinking behind this is. What the contact said was "They may have the facility to renew their MOT earlier than 3 months in mainland GB, but in NI it's not possible. You may find that a vehicle presented for test in a garage anywhere in GB would just carry out the MOT anyway, and we would not be informed so would be none the wiser, but as I stated before we are not aware of this." Judging by your experience erneboy, I should be able to go to any garage in England, just before we depart, and get the MOT there. And, since the NI folks are not informed, hope that they don't slap a fine on me when I'm away because they assume I no longer have an MOT when the NI one expires.

What a minefield!

Well, I for one intend to be on the safe side and have valid Tax, MOT and insurance.


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## Addie

peribro said:


> No! I found reference to this statement by the DVLA (which I posted yesterday morning):
> "European Union (EU) vehicles which are circulating temporarily within or between community Member States are allowed under EC Directive 83/182, to be used on public roads without the need to register or *pay duties[/] in the host country. These provisions limit visits to six months in a twelve-month period and the vehicle must comply with the registration and licensing requirements of its home country."
> *


*

I've not read Directive 83/182 but I seem to remember that 'duty' is actually referring to the VAT payable on a new vehicle.

Eg when I was looking to buy my van in Germany, I would buy it 'tax free', drive it back on Export Plates with UK insurance and then register and pay the VAT at home?*


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## thieawin

What the EU directive provides is for temporary importation, for the period allowed by the country temporarily being visited, without the requirement to re register locally, pay local import duties, local car tax equivalent or local VAT.

The offence, if any, in the country you were temporarily visiting would be not re registering or having an unregistered car on their roads, not not having an ITV, controle technique, MOT, or whatever, or tax disc.

BUT I agree, if you are UK registered, to avoid the auto fine for no tax disc, you must have tax, which you can renew whilst you are away on line, if you have a valid MOT and insurance, you must have insurance. As long as you are taxed and insured then if your MOT runs out whilst abroad then you may have an insurance problem for fully comprehensive, but not stautory minimum third party risks, (it will depend on your policy) and on return you can go directly to a prebooked MOT, (the directives do not cover MOT, it is not a duty or similar tax, which is what the directive covers). Of course your vehicle must meet the construction and use requirements to be roadworthy in the country(ies) you are temporarily visiting.

SORN is another matter. You are temporarily suspending registration, in effect so the exempy tions under the directive do not apply

Finally NI MOT and the three months rule (alleged). I understand the frustrations and difficulties of the differences in the various jurisdictions around the British Isles, and I admit we do not have MOT here in IOM, but under what provision is the NI official saying a garage in NI or GB cannot test you and issue a certificate at any time. I don't think there is one and I think, indeed am sure, the official is making it up. After all you can bring an NI registered car into GB without reregistering, keep your index number and so a GB MOT must be valid and trackable back in the province, and a GB MOT can be done at any time and then 12 months runs from the date of the last one. GB and NI share the MOT data bases. Why would there be a special rule on MOT for NI?


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## eddied

Sorry, but seems to me you can't see the wood for the trees here.
If you insist on being able to trundle around Europe without valid tax disc/MOT so be it. You may as well not bother with warning triangle, fluorescent vests, spare bulbs, an emergency set of spectacles, or bike rack warning plate whilst your at it.
The 'patente it' link specifically shows that section 80 of the Italian Traffic Law, paragraph 2, 'is drafted in accordance with all current EU directives on the matter' i.e. section 80 is dedicated to 'revisione' i.e. MOT Italian style.
Obviously the directives themselves are available in the language of all EU nations.
Further down, explaining sanctions, the phrase 'WHOEVER is without a 'revisione' or equivalent' etc. is used.

The 'Lancellotti' link explains the head of Florence metropoitan police depts. interpretation of EU directives and International Treaties and Conventions; and how police officers are advised to proceed. Several examples of especially Romanian and Bulgarian vehicles being taken off the road for non compliance. Again, all EU directives and International Treaties and Conventions are always available in the language of participating countries.
Arrivederci,
eddied


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## thieawin

Northern Ireland MOT

Whilst I cannot find the actual regs the NI gov direct site is interesting

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/how-do-i-book-an-mot-vehicle-test-appointment

You get 7 weeks written notice

You can test up to 28 days in advance without changing the expiry date, ie you can get a 13 month MOT

A GB test is valid for NI (and vice versa), ie the systems talk to each other

ie its the same as the rest of the UK.

No restriction in having a test months early, all that does is change your next renewal date, same as GB


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## erneboy

I don't think there would be any offence by having an MOT done early in another part of the UK, even if there is a three month rule in NI.

Don't worry about it you would be acting perfectly legally in England. It never occurred to me to think that and I haven't had a problem. I think that at times our rulers in NI likes to make silly little changes to legislation just to assert their ability to do so.

Thieawin, you might be interested to know that the MoT process in NI is quite different. Tests are conducted in Government run test centers staffed by civil servants, many very officious in my experience. There is no such thing as an advisory. It's more bureaucratic and time consuming. People in the rest of the UK have it easy by comparison.

Jean the advantage of having it done away from NI is that if there is a simple fault they will repair it and complete the test rather than leave you to request a re-test date and leave you to find a repairer.
If you like I can provide you details of two garages where I have had this done without any problem or comment, both understand what I was doing and why. It is perfectly legal and sensible.

There are several Mot centres in and near Stranraer. I am sure they get a lot of business from NI, you could try one of those. I used to go to Stranraer MoT Centre, they were very helpful, but it closed when the owner retired, Alan.


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## thieawin

I was aware of the difference erneboy. Whilst we do not have MOTs in IOM any vehicle older than 3 years old imported into the IOM has to undergo a Highways and Transport Board or Departnment of Infrastructure test for fitness to register. It is done at a Government Test Center by run by civil servants, for civil servants employing civil servants as the testing engineers, very similar to NI; and your description of how they behave in NI is identical to my experience here

I don't think there was any suggestion of illegality in NI over getting it done early, just a civil service "can't" or "won't" mentality and because of the different structure, and, due to the fact that they are public employees, a jobsworth hat? Possibly the system is under stress as to capacity (they imply as much on the site) so early overlapping tests would muck up their ordered lives.

I know the Public Service in NI is large and bloated, so MOTs must be an obvious candidate for privatisation, methinks, in these times of austerity


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## peribro

Addie said:


> I've not read Directive 83/182 but I seem to remember that 'duty' is actually referring to the VAT payable on a new vehicle.


 It states on page 13 of the EU Information Document on Taxation of Cars Transferred within the Community that

"Also, the provisions of Directive 83/182 of 28 March 1983 mean that a
Member State to which a car is temporarily transferred must grant [the
car's owner who is a] resident of another Member State exemption
from consumption taxes and the taxes specifically mentioned in the
Annex to the Directive (Article 1(1)). This therefore also covers taxes on using the car (mostly road tax)."

The last sentence is their (EU) words, not mine.


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## erneboy

I regret that I can't thank your post half a dozen times Peter. Well done finding that.

Does that leave us wondering whether the UK has a law saying we must have UK road tax in other countries and if so whether the the UK can make legislation to apply in other states?

That would only be of interest to those of us who have insurance which does not require us to have road tax at all times of course.

Them we could muse on how you must have insurance before you can have tax but some insurance companies, it seems, won't insure you unless you have tax. Thus making obtaining either legally impossible unless you always renew your tax before the old disc expires. That does not help with a new vehicle or with getting one which has been the subject of a SORN retaxed, Alan.


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## eddied

peribro said:


> Addie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've not read Directive 83/182 but I seem to remember that 'duty' is actually referring to the VAT payable on a new vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> It states on page 13 of the EU Information Document on Taxation of Cars Transferred within the Community that
> 
> "Also, the provisions of Directive 83/182 of 28 March 1983 mean that a
> Member State to which a car is temporarily transferred must grant [the
> car's owner who is a] resident of another Member State exemption
> from consumption taxes and the taxes specifically mentioned in the
> Annex to the Directive (Article 1(1)). This therefore also covers taxes on using the car (mostly road tax)."
> 
> The last sentence is their (EU) words, not mine.
Click to expand...

This last sentence of course means that another EU country cannot ask you to pay their road tax if you are already displaying a valid UK tax disc.
Re doubters of necessity for a valid MOT, read the following; in English; but available in all EU/EEA languages :

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:141:0012:0028:EN:PDF

in particular Chapter 1, Article 3, paragraph 2.

saluti,
eddied


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## peribro

eddied said:


> Re doubters of necessity for a valid MOT, read the following; in English; but available in all EU/EEA languages :
> 
> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:141:0012:0028:EN:PDF
> 
> in particular Chapter 1, Article 3, paragraph 2.


But how is such legislation enforceable outside the particular member state? As I understand it, the UK legislation governs the need for an MOT if the car is being driven on roads in the UK . Even if the legislation did cover roads abroad, how could it be enforced unless a particular country has specific legislation to say that a foreign registered vehicle must comply with the (MOT) requirements of its home state. An alternative would be if a member state had legislation that says that if a vehicle does not comply with the MOT or equivalent legislation in its home state then it must comply with local legislation. However I have never seen such legislation referred to so am not sure it exists.


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## erneboy

Thanks Eddie, that moves us along. It places a duty one one state to recognise test certificates issued by others. I don't see that it places duties on vehicle owners or drivers, Alan.


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## jiwawa

thieawin said:


> .... under what provision is the NI official saying a garage in NI or GB cannot test you and issue a certificate at any time. I don't think there is one and I think, indeed am sure, the official is making it up. After all you can bring an NI registered car into GB without reregistering, keep your index number and so a GB MOT must be valid and trackable back in the province, and a GB MOT can be done at any time and then 12 months runs from the date of the last one. GB and NI share the MOT data bases. Why would there be a special rule on MOT for NI?


Yes, the GB MOT is valid in NI and vice versa; I don't know about trackable - the 2 MOT DBs are _not_ shared, apparently.



thieawin said:


> A GB test is valid for NI (and vice versa), ie the systems talk to each other
> 
> ie its the same as the rest of the UK.
> 
> No restriction in having a test months early, all that does is change your next renewal date, same as GB


This is not the information I'm getting from the Department itself.



thieawin said:


> I don't think there was any suggestion of illegality in NI over getting it done early, just a civil service "can't" or "won't" mentality and because of the different structure, and, due to the fact that they are public employees, a jobsworth hat? Possibly the system is under stress as to capacity (they imply as much on the site) so early overlapping tests would muck up their ordered lives.


It really doesn't matter whether it's an 'illegality' or a 'won't because we're over-stretched' - if they won't give me an appointment, I can't get it done in NI.

But I have the solution now - get it done across the water on the way out - so I'm happy enough.


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## thieawin

JWW

I know your regime is different, MOT after 4 years (not 3) (for cars, motorhomes and motorbikes) and an MOT disc to display, but the nigov website about MOT says

1. If you have an MOT within 28 days of due date the MOT runs for 12 months from due date, ie if MOT due on 01 April and you test on 4th March then the new MOT runs for 12 months 28 days and, significantly

2. _If the vehicle is tested earlier than 28 days before its due date, the MOT will only run for twelve months_. Ie you can renew for 12 months at anytime

I also see that the NI tax disc can be posted to you at an address abroad, not so a GB one as i understand it.


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## jiwawa

Thanks theiawin - I've noted the appropriate section to my contact in DVTA and asked to be pointed to where it says I can't have it more than 3 months in advance - I'll let you know!

For me, personally, getting it done in GB is probably the best answer as we'll be outof NI for 4-5wks before we actually head abroad. The later, the better.


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## jiwawa

Here's the information supporting NI MOT not being available more than 3 months prior to the due date:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/nisr/2003/303/regulation/8/made

I see it's information from 2003, but at this page it would seem to say there have been no changes to that 2003 info


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## erneboy

JWW, I think your taped lights may not pass in England. As you have discovered the rules are not the same, Alan.


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## 1302

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> Simple
> 
> Have mot done just prior to departure.
> If you have a couple of months Tax prior to departure and are not going to use MH, Sorn it and then re tax prior to departure.
> You then know that you are covered for a full 12 months.
> 
> .


This is what we had to do - yuo dont lose out on Tax and just lose a bit of MOT time.


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## jiwawa

erneboy said:


> JWW, I think your taped lights may not pass in England. As you have discovered the rules are not the same, Alan.


Why is nothing ever easy?!?

Thanks for the heads-up - I'll continue the investigation


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## erneboy

You may be OK but I think I have read posts where it was fine in some cases and not in others. It may depend on the attitude of the person conducting the test, Alan.


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