# Lasting Power of Attorney?



## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I have just done one each for Chris and myself. When I mentioned it to a friend she asked if I had done the "health" one. I have not. I have just done the financial one. She tells me that the health one is the most important. What do others think?

I have always assumed that the NHS would do its best for me if I were not able to make decisions. I did hear, however, of a woman who was not being treated for cancer because she was unable to consent to the treatment.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

To me both are well wort considering as you sadly, cannot predict what state you might be in if such a thing becomes relevant and active.

It is worth thinking about such things as an advanced DNR notice (Do Not Resuscitate) in the event of eg serious head injuries resulting in an inability to communicate. AFAIK a Lasting Power of Attorney can ONLY be drawn up BEFORE it is needed as you have to be sufficiently aware that you can agree to it's implications. We thought about and investigated doing one for our Special Needs daughter but were advised that it could not be done as she does not have sufficient mental capacity to agree to the terms as she cannot understand the implications.

So, sensible advanced thought would be a good way forward but discuss it widely and do seek professional advice and guidance.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Is it necessary Pat if everything is in joint names? We made a point of doing this once past 70 and the will states on the demise of one the lot passes to the surviving spouse. And on the demise of both the lot to be shared with both children.

Ray.


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

PoA has nothing to do with wills or dying: it is about how decisions are made and who makes them IF you aren't capable.

We took out PoA for Finance on my Dad in the early stages of dementia: we can pay his bills (inc Care Home fees and sell his bungalow), sort out insurances, etc.

Unfortunately we didn't include PoA for Health, so when he was found lying in a pool of blood in his bungalow last Xmas, HE was able to refuse to go to hospital as the ambulance crew were not prepared to accept verbal statements that he had dementia (he can be very persuasive in appearing "normal") and no family doctor was available to attend. [Dad was frightened that they wouldn't let him out, despite everyone reassuring him that he needed an Xray to see if he'd damaged his hip.]

Eventually he agreed to go to a Care Home on a temporary basis, as he couldn't cope in his home even with family support and 4 visiting carers per day.
They organised capability tests and decided that he wouldn't cope at home, so he was placed in the care of the Local Authority "Best Interests" person.
She felt he needed to stay in the Home, following further Occupational Therapists assessments.

He wanted to get out and after numerous "escape attempts" and phone calls to the police complaining that he was being held prisoner, a court case was instigated.
A solicitor was appointed to fight his case but the outcome was that he is now legally instructed to remain in the current Care Home.

Recently we were presented with an invoice for £28k, to cover his costs from Xmas to early November.

He can have another court hearing next August, but it is unlikely that the judge will order his release.

IF we held PoA for Health, Dad might have been back in his bungalow at Easter.

I'll leave you to decide for yourself whether PoA on Health is important for you - Gordon


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## HurricaneSmith (Jul 13, 2007)

Thanks for such a comprehensive post, Gordon.

We completed Enduring PoA forms a while ago, but didn't consider your points. 

When I get home later today, following your story, I'm going to talk it over with Yvonne. 

Thank you again!

.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

How awful for you, Gordon.

I had Power of Attorney for my mum over her financial affairs. When she became ill she was, for the most part, able to consent to treatment. At the very end, however, she was unable to understand what was being said. We were told that she would not survive her perforated bowel and she was too frail to operate upon. The medics then started to give her antibiotics. I queried the purpose of this as it seemed pointless to treat her given their prognosis. They then asked me to leave the room. I presume they asked my unconscious mother what she wanted them to do. We had already passed on her wishes to not be treated if she was terminal but they had to ask her. They did stop treatment and supported her through to her death. This lead me to believe that I would be treated the same. Perhaps I am wrong.

It does seem to me, now, that a medical LPA is necessary. I did the financial one for Chris and myself through the Office of the Public Guardian. It cost me £80 odd for each of us. A friend paid a solicitor £400. It was a nuisance getting witness signatures etc but was other wise straightforward. They lead you through the process.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

An “Enduring Power of Attorney” to give it itscorrect name is absolutely VITAL in respect of medical matters. Mrs P and I both have them for finance AND health. The finance aspect has been covered. 

Health ones are so important because once you become incapable due to whatever reason (stroke being the most likely) the medical authorities are not allowed, by law, to accept anyone else’s instructions in respect of your health care UNLESS you have an attorney who is named on a POA in place. It matters not what relationship they have with you, their word counts for nothing and the medical profession will do what THEY think is right.

I know it sounds all wrong but even if you have been married for 60+ years without that POA being in place any partner can be overridden by a doctor. If there is a POA in place then any decision made by the named attorney, is considered, in law, to have been made by the perlson making the POA, and must be acted on accordingly. No POA means the medical profession CANNOT listen to anyone else in regards to patient health care.

I my case I have instructed my attorney as to my wishes in respect of resuscitation etc. I do not wish to be kept alive by artificial means, food may be witheld but NOT fluids etc. Without a POA enabling my attorney to tell the drs that I could be kept alive for years by machine, or have all fluids witheld so would die of dehydration. 

Any POA must be registered at the Court of Protection in London and is NOT valid until so registered. 

It’s such an important thing my advice is to have one done by a solicitor, as it’s not really a DIY job. I think mine charged me about £200 all in.

Andy


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I think in todays world Andy it's more likely they would pull the plug rather than prolong life. All down to money.

Ray.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

I understand your sentiment but having dealt with my mothers end of life a few years ago I was VERY pleased that a few years previously we had done a POA, it would have been a nightmare without it. Even being in possession of one I STILL had a fair battle with the Dr’s over what they could, and more importantly could NOT do. She wanted to die at home, “they” wanted her in a hospital and fought me very hard. 

But of course they failed!! But ONLY because of the POA I kept waving under their noses. 

Andy


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I better tell me kids to get on with it then.

Ray.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

raynipper said:


> I better tell me kids to get on with it then.
> 
> Ray.


ONLY you and Prue can make POA's in respect of your health. You can name your children as your attorney if you wish.

I have no idea how POA's made in England would work in France though.

Andy


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## Westbay (Mar 15, 2008)

Mrplodd said:


> An "Enduring Power of Attorney" to give it itscorrect name is absolutely VITAL in respect of medical matters. Mrs P and I both have them for finance AND health. The finance aspect has been covered.
> 
> Health ones are so important because once you become incapable due to whatever reason (stroke being the most likely) the medical authorities are not allowed, by law, to accept anyone else's instructions in respect of your health care UNLESS you have an attorney who is named on a POA in place. It matters not what relationship they have with you, their word counts for nothing and the medical profession will do what THEY think is right.
> 
> ...


Changed a bit since then. No longer such a thing as Enduring poa. It's now a Lasting Poa. Can be done very simply online, the Guv Uk make a point that no solicitor is really necessary. Did both health and financial for me and wife. Did same for late mother-in-law and was absolutely a godsend in helping her in her last months.

The Gov Uk site is probably the most helpful I've ever seen.


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## cronkle (May 1, 2005)

Penquin said:


> To me both are well wort considering as you sadly, cannot predict what state you might be in if such a thing becomes relevant and active.
> 
> It is worth thinking about such things as an advanced DNR notice (Do Not Resuscitate) in the event of eg serious head injuries resulting in an inability to communicate. AFAIK a Lasting Power of Attorney can ONLY be drawn up BEFORE it is needed as you have to be sufficiently aware that you can agree to it's implications. We thought about and investigated doing one for our Special Needs daughter but were advised that it could not be done as she does not have sufficient mental capacity to agree to the terms as she cannot understand the implications.
> 
> So, sensible advanced thought would be a good way forward but discuss it widely and do seek professional advice and guidance.


I'm sure you are aware that the Court of Protection can appoint a deputy (maybe you or your wife) who would have very similar powers as a donee under an LPA. Most times that would not be necessary if you and your family are satisfied with how you are being consulted about your daughter's care under the 'best interest principles.
https://www.scie.org.uk/mca/practice/best-interests.

These processes have all been set up under the Mental Capacity Act 2005 and there are penalties for those who don't stick to them. It was 2009 or there-abouts that the Act was enabled and it has been interesting watching how services have come to realise how far reaching it was and how it could change the lives of people who come within it's scope.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

One of the signatures required is from someone who certifies that you understand what you are signing. As I say above that can be a long term friend. From memory it cannot be one of the attorneys.


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## powerplus (Oct 6, 2014)

hi all

this lot of post jumped out at me just now

some of you may remember that i ended up doing poa for my friend and his wife as they were in portugal

they and a family member sorted out all the forms for both financial and health for them both

lucky they did as he passed away in portugal back in the summer and i had to fly back to portugal to get his funeral sorted

i had also arranged poa for his wife in portugal as the british poa is not valid in portugal

his wife is also here in the home with dementia and i am her responsible person here

being a poa is not to be taken lightly as there are many responsibilities such as getting registered on the persons bank as a poa

you must also make decisions that are in the persons best interests and not make any profit from what you do

i would definitely suggest that people do consider having some one who you trust fully as a poa as you just dont know what will happen in the future as once something happens the vultures will suddenly appear with lots of advice and be interested in any money matters that may not be in the interests of the aged people

i ended up also being a trustee for my friends estate and also act as a executor on behalf of his wife

sorry if its a bit bitty but just wanted to say the above and how important it is and needs doing now not later when it may be to late



barry


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## HurricaneSmith (Jul 13, 2007)

Westbay said:


> Changed a bit since then. No longer such a thing as Enduring poa. It's now a Lasting Poa. Can be done very simply online, the Guv Uk make a point that no solicitor is really necessary. Did both health and financial for me and wife. Did same for late mother-in-law and was absolutely a godsend in helping her in her last months.
> 
> The Gov Uk site is probably the most helpful I've ever seen.


One point to add to the above good post.

"The Mental Capacity Act 2005 came into force on 1 October 2007 and no new Enduring PoAs can now be drawn up; however, one signed before that date remains valid and may still be registered with the Office of the Public Guardian. This is required when the donor begins to lose mental capacity. Unlike an LPA, an Enduring PoA can be used without registration for so long as the donor has mental capacity."

Being aware that the rules were changing, our PoA was completed before the cut-off date and is still legally valid.

.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Mrplodd said:


> I know it sounds all wrong but even if you have been married for 60+ years without that POA being in place any partner can be overridden by a doctor. If there is a POA in place then any decision made by the named attorney, is considered, in law, to have been made by the perlson making the POA, and must be acted on accordingly. No POA means the medical profession CANNOT listen to anyone else in regards to patient health care.
> 
> Andy


This is very true. It happened to my sister whose husband was in hospital for a year before he died.

What made it so much worse was that the staff were very unpleasant about it all. It made for an extremely distressing and stressful experience.

They had had the financial POA in place but not the medical.


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## TeamRienza (Sep 21, 2010)

I cannot be certain of the legalities in Britain, but in N. Ireland when it came to setting up enduring power of attorneys for my parents and more recently my wife and myself, we ensured that at least two of our family were named (as with appointing executors for the wills). This ensured that no one person had sole control over health or financial matters on behalf of the person concerned.

Checks and balances as regards assets and division of responsibility for matters of health. Whilst there was no suggestion of the possibility of improper actions within our family, I certainly felt happier having decisions made on behalf of our parents in conjunction with my sister. The papers are full of stories of children manipulating their elderly parents to their detriment and the detriment of other family members (particularly where money is concerned).

The POA was extremely useful when it was used in both my parents situations and allowed consultation and access to medical information and of course in managing finance on their behalfs. Interestingly at no time did I ever have to produce the agreement for inspection by health or financial institutions. Probably a bit of lax procedure on their behalf.

The other point worth stressing is that if not having a POA in place, the courts can appoint a solicitor to make all the relevant decisions on behalf of the affected individual. The ongoing costs of their services can make a large hole in the parents assets. Money which is lost to their well-being and ongoing medical or financial needs.

Davy


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

If you are using your children to administer your affairs, and you have more children than attorneys, may I suggest that you make extra provision for them in your will. I looked after my mother including all her medical and financial affairs. I have two brothers. Before she died she had mild dementia and went through that stage of accusing anyone and everyone of stealing her things. It was very distressing. Her will, of course, was divided equally between the three of us. I accepted this just as the way things were. Now that I am putting that same onus upon my daughter I would, if I had more children, leave her a little extra for all her efforts. I know this happens with executors of wills who can claim "expenses" but I did not see a provision for it on the LPA.
One of my brothers, my mum's favorite before she died, did not bother to come to her funeral. The other, the eldest child and her original favorite, attended the funeral but that was his sole input into the latter stages of her life including hospital visiting.


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## RobMD (May 9, 2005)

Worth having A solicitor to guide you through making an LPA. there are things to consider that you may not think of. Do you want your attorneys to act together at all times, or singly. do you want replacement attorneys?
It is essential to have an LPA for Financial and Health, and for them to be registered immediately after making them, so they can be used as soon as they are required.
I made them both for my wife, and for myself. Beryl's health deteriorated, and I had to use both in order to manage her care properly. She died recently, and on her death the Power of Attorney also dies, and the executor of the will then takes over all affairs.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

So sorry to hear about the death of your wife Rob. Thanks for sharing the benefits of having LPAs in place. 
The forms I downloaded do explain about attorneys acting singly or jointly and about having replacement attorneys. Our financial LPAs are now registered with the Office of the Public Guardian. Will do the health ones when we get a rainy day or before daughter and son in law come for Christmas so that they can sign their part.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

We have one son and one daughter as executives of our will 

As yet we have not appointed POE 

We were P o E to a dear friend , being a friend we shared it with a solicitor we trusted 

Because their was a relative on her husbands side who did in fact try to infer we were financially abusing her , when in fact it was her who tried to cut her off from her husbands will

He unfortunately for her left everything to her in a change of will , and she left it to me in her will

And it was a lot of money , and I tried to talk her into at least halving it , but she wouldn’t 

She would only tell the soliciter she should have adopted me 

And bless her she did although not legally 

But I was a manager in Social services, Albert a manager in education 

We needed our jobs to pay the bills 

We were afraid of a financially abusing situation 

We would never financially abuse anyone

Caring for her cost us 

But I had promised that as she had cared for me as child and beyond I’d care for her 

And I never guessed what she was worth, niether did she till her husband died 

But I did care for her and so did Albert 

She went into an expensive home, which she loved

She stayed with us every weekend until it became dangerous 

As her mind deteriorated 

And then we took her out for afternoons teas, till. Even that became too much 

And we shared afternoon teas in the home 

She died Christmas Day , at 90 years old 

Which absolutely was fitting 

She’d want a special day to die 

Sandra


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## Kaytutt (Feb 5, 2013)

My Sister and I have joint and several lasting power off attorney for my Mother's health and finances, she did this a few years ago when she was first diagnosed with dementia. In the past year her health has deteriorated significantly with spells in a care home, a psychiatric unit, a generaly hospital ward and from tomorrow in another care home. I can't begin to think how much more difficult everything would have been had we not had LPA for health. Navigating the battlefield of health whose own departments can't communicate, social services and Department of work and Pensions I think would have been horrific if they had not been forced to include us in decision making because of the LPA for health


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## Kaytutt (Feb 5, 2013)

just to add some information that might be relevant to other posters in this thread. My Mother has been able to secure means tested funding for her general care home placement in the past (with a £40 per week top up from family) but since being hospitalised her condition has deteriorated slightly and she is now categorised as needing a care home with nursing and so we have been able to apply for Continued Health Care funding which *isn't means tested*. We haven't had the outcome of our application yet but having read the criteria I'm not sure they'll be able to refuse. She moves to a new care home today


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Did anyone see the drama Care last night? They mentioned the Continuing Health Care as the way to go.

It was a very powerful drama. 

It also touched on many care workers being very dedicated but not having the resources needed. And hospitals too, having to choose between perhaps saving a young person's life and dealing with an incontinent elderly patient. Polar choices but it got the message across. 

At the end of the day, if we want better care we have to lobby our politicians into providing it, and we have to be prepared to pay for it.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Continued Health Care was highlighted in the drama. It was the solution to the family's problem. I had heard of it but not known what it was called. To be honest I thought it was something people did to get round the system. I had heard that if your elderly relative was in a home of their choice and the funding for it ran out you could refuse to move them and Social Services would take over the cost. Is that the same thing?


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

no 

Nursing care is down to the NHS , they pay the cost not Social Services 

As such it is not means tested 

Continued Health Care funding, is as you would guess difficult to obtain, the criteria is set high 

It’s not that nursing imput is required , that can be solved by district nurse input into a residential care home setting 

It’s that continual nursing care is the main imput 

Then care becomes free under the NHS 

Sandra


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

There is a fabulous care home not far from where I live. I visited, once, when I was helping in the re-homing of a deaf kitten that could not live near a road. This care home was down a, long, tree lined drive and surrounded by fields. It smelled wonderful. They had a little resident dog but their previous cat had died. When i arrived, with the kitten, all the residents came to greet me and proceeded to tell me about, either the previous cat, or one that they had once owned. The notice board was full of clubs and society events with visiting hairdressers, chiropodists etc.
When I got home I told the family that I had put my name down for a place!
It had a Nursing Home attached.

So, if I were to be lucky enough to end up there, would they evict me when the money ran out?


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

Possibally

The amount of money provided by SServices , no longer covers the cost of care 

Top ups are or were illegal unless from the clients money, not the family, although I wouldn’t hold my breath on that one 

Unfortunately the short fall is often paid by charging private funders more 

Dorothy paid 100 + £, a day, 8years ago 

Attendance allowance made up part of that cost , but she was happy there , and two days , and nights a week , at weekend when we didn’t work , she spent with us, didn’t alter the bill though 

You do the best you can for those you love 

Although I’m not sure self funders should be supplementing SS funding , even indirectly 

But I guess that was always going to happen 

Sandra


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

aldra said:


> Top ups are or were illegal unless from the clients money, not the family, although I wouldn't hold my breath on that one
> 
> Sandra


I don't know about a situation where SocSer are paying.

We found a lovely care home for Dad, who is self-funding BUT 
1) it was approx £1000pw (his current home is £840)
2) a "third-party" top up of approx £500pw was required.
this could be paid for by a charity, a family member or whoever else would be prepared to pay it.

Gordon

My gran was in a different local care home, funded by the local authority, and Dad would have paid £550pw to be there: he doesn't like where he is BUT oh boy, things could be much worse!
Getting the best deal is not easy.


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

No it’s not 

Prices go up and up 

I’m hoping niether of us need a care home

We have over Half a million to give to our kids , we never touch it 

It was left to me and on my death to the kids

And I’ve honoured that 

We could get through that in a heart beat if we need care 

Even using our own money to top it up 

Sandra


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## Kaytutt (Feb 5, 2013)

My Mother had no savings, no private pension, no other sources of income and no property of her own, she's been living in a granny annexe attached to my Sisters house for the last 30 years. She was means tested and qualified for full Social Services funding, they calculate this by working out what her housing benefit would be worth, what her state pension is worth and any income support top-up she may be entitled to and then they gave her £40 a week back as pocket money, her previous care home received £535 per week from Social Services and family paid the £40 a week top up, the £40 a week pocket money she got to keep from her pension paid for a weekly hair do and for trips and activities that the care home organised.


She's been in hospital since the end of September so there haven't been any fees to pay and her state pension is being paid into her bank account so she's accumulated a small pot of money. As Aldra indicated, continued health care funding is difficult to get and doesn't just mean she gets supported by occasional visits by a nurse, it's for round the clock nursing care supported by senior carers and carers. She has dementia, diabetes, life long depression and a number of other ailments so CHC funding has been applied for, if she gets it then NHS pay her care fees and she gets to keep her state pension. Her new care home (she moved in yesterday) are charging £550 per week plus a £50 per week top up


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

It’s no longer a joke

Fees are astromonical 

They were as I as a social worker battled the system 

People who battled the system to receive nursing care

But the barriers were set so high 

It was almost impossible to push through 

And I’ve been retired now for many years

I doubt it’s got better

Sandra


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

When applying for these things does it help if you know how to "work" the system?

When my mother first started to struggle at home she applied for help from social services. She had Macular Degeneration and, although she did have some vision, she was registered blind. She got nowhere with her application. Then a lady from the Norfolk and Norwich Association for the Blind visited her. She took over the form filling and mum was able to claim some help. One of the things I remember was that they had asked if mum could dress herself unaided. As, physically, she could put on her clothes mum had answered "yes" to this question. The social worker asked my mum if she could see if the items of clothing matched and if they were clean. The answer was, of course "no".


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## Kaytutt (Feb 5, 2013)

I think the experts are better able to provide the most correct answers


We've heard this morning that my Mother has been awarded continuing health care but just a proportion (£163 per week) so I'm guessing that Social Services makes a saving, we are waiting for a call from the Social worker


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

aldra said:


> No it's not
> 
> Prices go up and up
> 
> ...


It would seem a wise move to put that 500,000 into a trust fund for your children. That way it can be protected and not called upon should your circumstances change.
Just a thought.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Kaytutt said:


> I think the experts are better able to provide the most correct answers
> 
> We've heard this morning that my Mother has been awarded continuing health care but just a proportion (£163 per week) so I'm guessing that Social Services makes a saving, we are waiting for a call from the Social worker


Something at least.


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