# Solar panels info wanted.



## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Hi Y'all.
Just wondering what peoples experiences of having solar panels installed recently?
What types, costs and grants as well as actual benefits and returns.

Ray.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Assuming that you mean on the HOUSE - we have been conned by a company that funnily enough, has gone bankrupt three times now - well the same Firector.

Ours were installed amid promises of grants (never materialised), no costs (oh yes there are) and atrocious work.

Even EDF refuse to connect them as they are single Phase and the house is triple phase - so unconnectable. Thanks EUROFRANCE SOKAIRE and the follow up companies that have also gone bankrupt.

Badly installed by Romanian workers who were rubbish, and we are still paying for them, initial price 22,000€, by the time we finish it will be over 33000€. 

And they don't work, can't work and never will.

Just beware and do not be taken in by supposed grants, approval by Council, approval by EDF - they all turn out to be falsely obtained and yet we have no comeback on anyone.


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

all good here, I had 16 panel fitted on my roof in June 2014 by a local company. South facing, no obstructions, one of sunniest spots in England admittedly! Cost around £6500 . Combined feed-in tarrif and savings meant payback was by last june - ie 6 years. Continuing savings mean I have a net power cost of around nil after allowing for the winter fuel allowance. Solar heats my water most of the year, obviously need some input in the winter and cloudy times.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Gosh Dave, thanks for the warnings, yes house. I'm not sure which road we will be going down but need all the info possible.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

For the expense involved and the payback period ( we're south facing with a large roof) we decided it was a dead loss unless you're quite young and it's your forever home, Liz chases the cheapest supplier every year.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Dave, that sounds horrendous. Us there no French equivalent of Watchdog, or small claims court (tho hardly a small claim) or Citizens' Advice?


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

You might be right Kev using those parameters. Our age is a big factor. Luckily we are south facing and have two different angles to the horizon.
But our electricity costs have been rising recently probably to pay for all the new meters. Plus I guess our usage has increased this winter.

Where we will be next year or decade we know not.

Ray.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

We have just had 46 inset solar panels installed on the South and West facing rooves of the new bungalow. South facing roof is full and West facing took the balance. It is the maximum we are allowed to have before seeking permission. Cost was £8,000 including VAT which, as self builder, we will be able to claim back. The bungalow is due to be triple phase. The solar panels will connect to the triple phase by going on to one phase of it. The other two phases are for the rest of the house and for a future electric car charger. We are not electricians but our understanding is that you should be able to connect your panels, Dave, to one phase of the triple supply.

We thought long and hard about our age and the pay back. Decided that our daughter might want the bungalow as a holiday retreat when we are gone.
The grant, we decided, was not worth applying for. You must use their approved suppliers and they bump up the price enough to nullify the grant. Our supplier is a local company that specialises in solar. Cannot recommend him highly enough. They are called Spartek http://spartek.co.uk/ and Lee is a really nice chap if a bit intense. He came highly recommended by all the other trades who work with him. I am sure, Dave, if you offer him a nice little holiday, he would come and sort your system out. Next time we speak to him I will ask his opinion on the single phase to triple phase problem. He will be wiring up our bungalow and garage towards the end of this month/beginning of next. His current contract is for a London Borough.

Lee told us that we will generate enough (allowing for the weather) to charge a car over night. Not that we have an electric car but you never know! You can now get batteries that will hold some of the generated electricity for use over night or on dull days. Tesla do one but he says that you are paying for the name with them. Tesla have an agreement whereby you can sell your electricity back to one of the electricity companies https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/powerwall. Waiting to see if we have enough money to buy one of those or one of the ones Lee recommends.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

How long before you see payback from the panels to cover the cost, assuming rates stay the same?


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Highly commendable Pat. In your situation I might probably go down the same route new installation.
But a few comments and experiences have made us wary for now and as we age talk of possibly relocating rears it's ugly head more and more. Despite the fact we just can't agree on any next move so we stay.

£8k of panels would be OK if a suitable reduction in bills were guaranteed. But like on a motorhome you need more power when the sun is hardly shining. Saying that today is brilliant but chilly. 

There might be other complications here in France with connecting to EDF. They can be difficult being a monopoly. 

Ray.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

When we contacted EDF re connection, we were told there would be an upfront charge of 1500€ plus probable extra charges.....

When they actually tried to get confirmation from Eurofrance Solaire they were unable to get any reply - probably because they were deliberately going bankrupt with the sole Director taking a massive bonus or so we were told.....

Eventually we gave them a copy of the technical sheet we had managed to obtain,bEDF immediately said they could not connect due to being monophase panels to connect to a three phase system, instantly "no charge as cannot be done" cheque returned.

We later discovered one panel out of 12 had not been connected anyway so they are on the roof doing nothing and the only thing MIGHT be to run a supply to the pool to heat it, but that would require much more money being spent and frankly cannot be guaranteed, besides as you said, heating of the pool would be best when sun not so reliable....

Hence my grave reservations and anger about the finance company who refuse to even think about it although legally they SHOUKD annul the contract and repay with interest. But to get that would require taking them to Court - expensive and unpredictable.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Your not having a lot of luck one way and another Dave. Seems you have a few techy problems down there. I guess apart from lack of Fibre internet we have been lucky with our spot. Even the antics of our disagreeable neighbour are entertaining now. 

Ray.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Penquin said:


> When we contacted EDF re connection, we were told there would be an upfront charge of 1500€ plus probable extra charges.....
> 
> When they actually tried to get confirmation from Eurofrance Solaire they were unable to get any reply - probably because they were deliberately going bankrupt with the sole Director taking a massive bonus or so we were told.....
> 
> ...


This is terrible Dave what has happened to you. Can you not get one of these no win no fee lawyers to take this on? Its a fair chunk of money.

I hadnt thought of Solar for the house. Our electricity bills are low here though. about £30 a month in the summer or zero when we are away most of the summer and about £40 a month in the winter.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I thought we were doing well with only €100 a month average through the year but last year saw €200 a month and this winter considerably more. We are virtually all electric and only use the log burner 5 or 6 times a year in extremes. Plus one gas bottle at €24.
Looking round maybe we should start to economise on three fridges and two freezers, three teles and tuners, multiple phone systems, etc. It all adds up.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Why not use the log burner more Ray?


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Dave, could you not get a quote from an electrician who deals with solar? They might be able to tell you whether connection to 3 phase is doable. I will try and drop an email to our chap to see what he says. He may not want to comment on something he has not seen but you never know!

As regards the benefits of solar you only need daylight for it to be useful. Obviously sunlight is best but it will run with daylight. We mostly went with it because we are having an Air Source Heat Pump for our heating and were scared of the electric companies price hikes making us keep turning the heating down due to running costs.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

If there is no 3 phase near the property you cannot have 3 phase it's that simple, you can buy 3 phase inverter in the UK to convert single phase to 3 phase to run something which needs 450v, same as what we use an inverter in the van to run a TV or microwave.

Conversely, you can tap one of the phases to run 240v stuff with no problem.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

We have 3 Phase to the property, the phases are equally distributed as required, but certainly 3 Phase.

EDF said, as have others, that it cannot be connected. The property was formerly a farm hence the 3 Phase supply, converting it to single Phase would cost a lot, EDF do not want any changes, so price the current required slightly higher than the 3 Phase costs..

Bear in mind, France has a very unique way of doing such things and is more mureauctatic in organisation than most Brits could dream about in their worst nightmare....

We have just enquirer about fibre optic and because we now have an official address rather than an "Lieu dit" we now have a reference number and have been told we should have fibre optic by 2025 as 4G not available here due to the terrain.

Ray might need to check on that as the official Reference number is the key to being able to check.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I am confused (again) if it has 3 phase, you can use any one of them and I assume you already do so the panels are single phase, I have just gone back to the post concerned, it's still confusing as I think I'm right in saying that in the UK the lines run at 700v to keep losses down, (some run 5 cables in a rope, 3 @ 240v, one earth and one to run street lights) then locally drop to 450 so businesses can have 3 phase, then to 240v, I would have assumed they would just all you to tie into the 240c and use it, I am obviously wrong again.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

My electrician has replied -

Hi Pat

Happy to assist.

Sounds like nonsense to me.

Are you able to obtain any details ?

Inverter spec

Panel spec

Pictures of equipment

Pictures of metering and distribution boards.

End quote.

Seems like there is a lot of us thinking that you *can* connect single phase into three phase. It is called three phase because it is made up of three single phases joined together.

In answer to above - yes we do have 3 phase nearby. It is widely thought that it won't be long before every new build will have three phase installed in order to cope with the charging of electric vehicles.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

We have so far tried in excess of 6 electricians who have visited and inpspected and the same reply from all, "cannot be connected" I do not know the reasons, but all say the same including REDF who are responsible for connecting to supply. They visited, inspected and said cannot be done.

Our recent electrician says that all three phases SHOULD be balanced in what they supply, possibly having solar connected to a single Phase would unbalance the three phases, that is MY thought after 10 years of trying and failing to get the panels connected to the supply.

But, thanks for your electrician's suggestions, I will take those and ask yet again.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Ypu only need 3 phase to fast charge though.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Further from an expert in solar panels -

Lee Watson <[email protected]>
14:17 (1 hour ago)
to me

Hi Pat

I need info requested to comment further.

There is no such thing as single phase or three phase solar panels - they all produce power in DC voltage.

The single phase or three phase pieces of equipment is the inverter - and these can be changed to suit the incoming supply.

The only other scenario is you can have micro inverters under the panels, this are rarely installed now. They are single phase but can still be configured to work with three phase (by spitting the system into 3 to maintain phase balance).

Solar is very niche - And you are lucky to be speaking to an expert 😉

Whatever the issue is with your friend's panels - there will certainly be a solution.

End Quote

It seems as though he may have spotted your problem, Dave, with the micro inverters???

As you see there is an answer, but finding someone to sort it is another problem altogether. Lee is extremely busy so it is very good of him to take the time to look at this problem. As he says he is an expert in the field. He was described to us as a "genius" with electrics.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Thanks, is he aware that we are in France ?

If it's OK with him I will email him direct with details of what we have, of course, I would not expect a home visit from him as his qualifications would not be recognised here - most electricians here also work as plumbers - two professions I would have thought to be fairly keen to stay well apart..


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I'm sure it will be fine to email him direct Dave. He was asking for more info and he would not do that if he wanted to be kept out of it. Yes he does realise you are in France. Electrics are electrics so at least if he tells you it is possible to fix you might stand a chance of finding the right kind of help.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Ray

The only way solar panels really pay for themselves is via a FIT (Feed In Tariff) payment. That was a scheme in the U.K. whereby you got paid for ALL the electricity you generate, even if you use it all! That payment makes them a reasonable investment, but it's as good as stopped here now, it's certainly not a lot any more! Those of us to got in early are guaranteed that payment, index linked, for 25 years. My system was installed in Sept 2015

By my reckoning the FIT payments, on their own, will pay for my panels in a total of about nine years (I have ignored how much I actually save by using the energy generated because I have no way of measuring it)

The panels themselves are not that expensive, but you also need an inverter to convert the panels DC to AC for your house and connection to your supply. They are between £1500 & £2000

Purely for what you would save on your energy bills I don't think it would be financially viable because it will take you a long long time to use (not generate, but use) £6k's worth of "leccy! During daylight hours

My system (15 panels), at the very peak of the summer on a cloudless day will produce, at peak, about 3.7Kw or roughly 26kwh in a day which earns me just under £5 (don't forget I get paid for ALL of that, unless France has a FIT system you won't get that payment) In the depths of winter on a cloudy day I sometimes get only 250-300 watts! (Or less)

You could add battery storage to any solar panels you install to make better use of what you generate (power when it's dark outside) but of course that costs even more. I have looked into it and for me it would be about £2500 because I would need a different inverter to the one I currently have. So it's simply unviable as my *total * annual energy bill is just under £700

Best advice I can give is to research what exactly you can get in payment for any energy you export to the grid (if anything) and then do your sums very carefully indeed.

If you would like any further info etc you have my email address.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Thanks Andy. It's looking more and more like an unlikely project even with all the cold callers telling me how good they are.:wink2:
I guess I was just adding to my limited knowledge to satisfy my own doubts.

Ray.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

With your electricity charges, Ray, I would look more closely. Remember that more and more people are living well into their nineties and beyond.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I would like to think I will Pat but might not be here.

Ray.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

I would certainly do some research Ray. It may well be that there is a similar system to FIT in France, which might make them worth some serious consideration. It is no longer available in the U.K. (for new installations) so that, on its own, makes them a dubious investment here. 

Just be sure to get good information and do your own maths as far as payback is concerned. I basically used an unexpected windfall to buy my panels. So I “ignore” the capital cost and just take the benefit of the income which, along with my winter fuel allowance, now means I am cost neutral on my energy bills (but it’s a modern house that’s very well insulated and neither of us like living in a “hot house”)


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Thanks again Andy. So many variables in the equation. We will probably kick it around for a while and then decide to do nothing if we can't see some tangible benefit.

Ray.


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