# E495. winterised or not?



## daveil

hi, how do i know if my new bessacar e495 is ok for winter trips to the alps etc :?: i have heard that motorhomes are ok for -15, but i want to be sure :?


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## Hezbez

It all depends what year it is.
The new model 4 series which just came out this year has the option of a winter pack.
Otherwise, if it's a older van, I don't think it will be fully winterised.


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## geraldandannie

"Winterised" is not a digital parameter - i.e. it's not a "yes it is, no it isn't" kind of thing.

All vans are winterised to a certain extent. They have insulation and heating. How efficient they are at keeping you warm is a different matter. Also, you need to think about the fresh and grey water tanks. Some just hang below the van, and are open to freezing. Some are in a double floor. Our fresh water tank is under a sofa inside the van, so safe from freezing. The grey water is open to the elements. As Hezbez says, you can buy winter packs which will heat the two tanks to stop them freezing, if they're susceptible.

Although the Swift website states it's OK for -15C, you need to find out exactly what this means. It's strange to say that it meets this 'standard', if you then have to buy an optional winter pack to stop your tanks freezing.

Gerald


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## peejay

I'll stick my head above the parapet and say that the vast majority of UK vans are not built with prelonged use in sub zero conditions in mind except maybe a very few of the top range models. I think the majority would struggle at or around -15c for extended periods.

That is not to say that you can't enjoy a winter holiday in these vans, you just need a bit of ingenuity.

We used to have an Autosleeper Nuevo which was woefully equipped for winter conditions, but that didn't stop us having some great times down in the Alpine areas, it just wasn't as easy as it is with a properly equipped van and a few 'mods' were required to prevent freezing.


pete


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## oilslick

*-15 for how long??*

I think you also need to consider how long you might be at -15.

One day you might be ok, but after a week I am sure the drain pipes will be frozen, insulated or not.

Our previous Autotrail was ok at -5 for a few days, but after 4 or 5 days you could forget emptying the sink.

However good the insulation it only delays the heat loss.


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## Rapide561

*Insulation*

Hi

I will use my own van as an example. It is classed as grade three insulation. This means that with an outside temperature of -15 degrees C, the van should maintain an internal temperature of +20 degrees C, with the heating on of course.

Now, the weak spots - the fresh and waste water tanks are partially underslung, and also, some drain pipes are partially exposed. During the very cold winter where we had -17 and worse, my van was fine but I had the tank heaters switched on. I left the waste drain tap open at all times and waste went straight into the humble bucket. Also, I put a glass of salt water down the sinks every night to prevent residual water freezing in the pipes. The last winter 2009-2010 was the coldest I have ever experienced.

I will add that the heating, when on a full pelt, would have probably seen the van at about +30, despite being -17 outside.

The "insulation grades" refer to the heating/heat retention capabilities as far as I am aware.

Winterised in my mind is a van where all pipes, tanks and so on are inside the vehicle, with warm air pipes close by. A Dethleffs 7871-2 for example springs to mind.

Russell


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## geraldandannie

This is the specification for the winterisation grades:

EN 1646-1 for heating and thermal insulation, the highest is Grade 3

CLASSIFICATION of THERMAL INSULATION and HEATING

Grade 3. A caravan including windows, doors and rooflights
in which the average thermal transmittance (U) of the
elements of construction shall not exceed 1.2W/(m2K).

An average temperature difference of at least 35K between
inside and outside temperatures shall be achieved when the
outside temperature is -15C.

Precautions shall be taken to ensure that the fresh water
supply can be filled at the end of the stabilising time of
one hour according to Annexe M. Then the fresh water service
shall operate when the outside temperature is -15C.

..... the average thermal transmittance coefficient (U) shall
be calculated in accordance with Annexe L or, for grades 2
and 3, tested in accordance with the method of test given in
Annexe M, according to the manufacturer's choice.

In the European standard it says regarding thermal insulation:

'Thermal insulation will be classified using three grades, the manufacturer must calculate the average 'U' value for the product and this will determine the grade. The NCC Certificate of Approval will clearly indicate the grade to which the product will be certificated. *Those manufacturers seeking grade 3 classification (the highest) will need to ensure the water system will still operate when the outside temperature is -15 degrees C'.*

Category 2:
The heating system must be able to warm up the interior from outside temperature to 20 degrees C within 2 hours at an outside temperature of 0 degrees C.

Category 3:
The heating system must be able to warm up the interior from outside temperature to 20 degrees C within 2 hours at an outside temperature of -10 degrees C. In addition it must be possible after one hour to fill and use the water system and the heating must keep it frost free.

The key thing is highlighted:
*Those manufacturers seeking grade 3 classification (the highest) will need to ensure the water system will still operate when the outside temperature is -15 degrees C'.*

So the need to buy a "winterisation pack" is a nonsense - either it works and complies with category 3, or it doesn't. That seems to imply that it _doesn't_ comply with category 3.

However, having said that, there aren't many that would comply. If it's important to you, you will need to look at those motorhomes with a double floor, which has the tanks AND THE PIPES in a heated underfloor area.

Gerald


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## daveil

thanks for the replys,i must admit that i do feel it little bit deflated, that after spending all that money on a motorhome(may 2010)  i might not be able to have a skiing hol,without worrying whether the motormome will freeze up.


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## Jimmy007

*winterisation CAT £*

[align=justify]Hi, very informative response from"geraldandannie" on winterisation classifications however can anyone tell me if a Dethleffs Esprit I 7870 is a cat 3 winterised van as standard? It's a double floored vehicle. The dealer says it is cat 3 but also says it does not have any tank heaters! is it possible to be cat 3 winterised without tank heaters?

thanks in advance for any info, Jimmy


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## Sandy_Saunders

Hi Jimmy

As long as the double floor area is heated by your blown air heating (or whatever other heating system you use), you will be OK. As long as you keep the heating on of course.

My motorhome as a similar design and you can see the heating pipes in the area round the tanks. 

Sandy


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## bigtwin

I've a 7870 also and reckon this model is as well prepared for low temperatures as any (and much better than most).

A common practice in winter seems to be to place a bucket under the grey water outlet and leave the drain tap open. The bucket canbe emptied as required.


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## GerryD

The current Bessacar 400 series does not have a double floor, all of the tanks are under the floor. The fresh water tank can be heated. There was a factory option at the time of order, but of course if you bought from dealer stock or did not order the tank heaters then they will not be there.
The fresh water tank is insulated, but the blue pipe from the tank to the inside of the van will need lagging. Tank heaters can be fitted after market, and the identical units are sold by CAK tanks. The Sargent power supply unit is also prewired for the tank heaters.
As has been said before, the Bessacar E400 range is certified to Category 3 insulation standard, which is the highest grade. Other manufacturers may have better insulation standards, but they would not be able to make any certified claims. Whilst it is not a cheap purchase, the Bessacar E400 series is still classed as being at the budget end of the market. Others vehicles may perform better in extreme cold, but their cost is prohibitive to many.
For not a lot of money it is possible to improve the insulation that you have.
Whilst it is not the best, I am sure that you will find many owners thoroughly enjoying their skiing holidays nice and warm in motorhomes with insulation far below the standards of yours.
Gerry


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## geordie01

we have had hols in -15 in our firenze class 2 insulated and had no probs just need to think ahead. leave heating on low when not in van 
open the locker door where the fresh water tank is stored if you can
leave the waste drain open and catch in a bucket and take a hammer to hit said bucket to remove the ice cube that forms over night and do not leave your beer or wine under the van to cool down and then forget it. go enjoy
ps anti freeze in the wc cassette is worth thinking about.


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## Zepp

*Re: winterisation CAT £*



Jimmy007 said:


> [align=justify]Hi, very informative response from"geraldandannie" on winterisation classifications however can anyone tell me if a Dethleffs Esprit I 7870 is a cat 3 winterised van as standard? It's a double floored vehicle. The dealer says it is cat 3 but also says it does not have any tank heaters! is it possible to be cat 3 winterised without tank heaters?
> 
> thanks in advance for any info, Jimmy


We don't have heated tanks and we have been down to -12 and never froze up yet. Our tanks are inside the double floor.

We have been on sites this year and last year and everyone around us has been frozen up but we have been ok


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## Baciko

Does anyone know of a "league table" of motorhomes with respect to Class III? That could be pretty useful to me right now


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## cabby

No, but the idea of a chart sounds good to me.

cabby


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