# Reasons for leaving



## 98172 (Mar 16, 2006)

I would like to take this opportunity using one of my last few posts to comment on some of the discussion that have taken place over the course of the last week regarding payment for membership.

This post isn't a last bitter kick at the system and is not in any way meant to rekindle any fires but merely to show some of the membership that there may be more reasons for people to leave than is covered by a cursory view.

Some members here were quite aggressive in their reaction to those people who decided that they did not want to pay for the privilege of being a member of this site.

Several of the comments that were made implied that people who did not want to pay were simply skin flints or freeloaders. 
I feel that this is a very shallow and narrow-minded view of the possible reasons that underpin most people's reasons for leaving.

The World Wide Web began with the desire of a few people around the globe to share information that would be of value to others in a free and accessible way. 

Being involved in academia I use the electronic media in various ways but always with that early concept in mind, to share information without necessarily gaining in any way other than to receive information which may be useful to me.

I am an active member of several forums, and on those where I have extensive subject knowledge I spend a lot of time answering people's questions. In that way I am paying for being a member of a given forum and I have no thoughts regarding reward. 

The unfortunate thing about my involvement in this forum is that so far I have been a taker but that is not because I'm a freeloader, it is because I do not have sufficient knowledge of motor homes to be able to pass on to other people. However, had things been different, I would have stayed and I would have been active on the site and as my own knowledge of motor homes increased I would have been in a position to pay back the system in kind. 

Many of you, I know, behave in exactly this way and were very kind in replying to my often rather basic queries and sometimes at no small cost in terms of your time, and for that I thank you.

In addition I can't help thinking that the implementation of a two tier system, paying and non-paying members, may well be responsible in part for some of the more abrasive threads that appear to frequent the forum. I also believe that a membership only system will, in time, be reduced to a core of members who have nothing new to say to each other at which point it will simply implode.

I have every respect for entrepreneurs who work hard at trying to make an honest living; it's just that I can't agree with it when it involves the buying and selling of information that has been input by the membership. Clearly many of you will disagree with my view, but it is just that, my view and I just feel uncomfortable with the idea as a whole.

Best wishes

Frank

BTW; the new avatar is because of the way I was accused (by my partner) of driving the Hymer when we first used it
:?


----------



## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Sorry to see you leave Frank.. 
Safe travels .. .

Jim


----------



## 88757 (May 9, 2005)

An honourable viewpoint well expressed Frank. Sorry to see a person of your calibre go.
Mary


----------



## 95384 (Jun 9, 2005)

Excellent post Frank - I am in the same boat thinking the same thing. Over the past week I have noticed several posts where I could have offered advice or assistance, but didn't know if I had one or two or four posts left. I've watched many boards go 'pay per view' and fall quickly by the wayside, so I am not planning to pay for a board that probably wont be around in a year or 18 months. I appreciate that Nuke has to put a massive amunt of time and effort into MHF, and I certainly wouldn't put that amount of time and effort in for no reward, but I can't help the feeling that once the initial phase of subscriptions die out, the board will become less useful as people don't get round to renewing subs and by September 2007 the place will be reduced to George arguing with the mods about nothing much (as usual)


----------



## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

An admirable post Frank, and like others have mentioned, we too are sorry to hear you're leaving us  

Safe journeys..M&D


----------



## 90212 (May 1, 2005)

Overall, my feelings are mirrored in this calmly well written post. I also feel that sadly there has been too much negativity in the MHF forums over the past few months & I find it embarrassing that some so called motorhomers are at each others throats. 



Monty


----------



## Pusser (May 9, 2005)

Good post Frank and I can see where you are coming from. One point you ought to have considered is that while information sharing around the world is admirable, it would be more admirable if ISP's hosting the servers gave of their services free of charge and then Nukes would not have to single handedly fork out for what is a sizeable charge. The subs have not been in place for a money making venture but to stop the drain of Nukes personal money and the free time spent affecting his professional capacity where he does earn his money from.

In an ideal world it would be free - we don't live in one though.

I do hope you will reconsider if only from the point of view that any subs you are likely to incur can easily be recouped with discounts of campsites and equipment and as George pointed out only yesterday, one member saved I think £2k from the advice on here.

So its not a bad deal, it is not rip off prices but simply a necessity to keep this site going in the way that the majority of members would like it to go.

Wish you safe and happy travels in your recently found love of m\homes.


----------



## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

I can't add to what has been said, Frank. You and yours take care and enjoy motorhoming!

Regards,

Dave


----------



## eddied (May 9, 2005)

:? 
Hi there Frank,
well put from your point of view; but is not the subscription more a club membership fee than a forum charge? don't you think ?

Any way, all the best.
saluti,
eddied


----------



## 89555 (May 28, 2005)

[quote=" one member saved I think £2k from the advice on here.

.[/quote]

Yes but that advice was freely given


----------



## Pusser (May 9, 2005)

Jackkelly32 said:


> [quote=" one member saved I think £2k from the advice on here.
> 
> .


Yes but that advice was freely given[/quote]

Yep . valid point and I missed the target altogether with that one. But I think the rest of what I said is sound.


----------



## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Pusser said:


> one member saved I think £2k from the advice on here.


For clarification:

This was the difference between two quotes I received for RV insurance, advice and help on here was extremely helpful and I am grateful to everyone who contributed and steered me in the right direction, it saved me time and effort phoning brokers, this is what forums are all about, sharing information and giving advice.

MHFs however is more than a forum, it has evolved over the past 30 months into a club with discounts on sites and accessories, rallys and informal meets. As Pusser has pointed out this type of service does cost money, there is no such thing as a 'free lunch' and whether you think it is GVFM or not, the subscription of £10 will easily be recouped over and over again .. 
Principals about the right to free information and the right to free forums are a smokescreen.. do you get free broadband, do you not pay per minute on your mobile to get 'free' information from a friend, is TV free ? .. nothing is free, it's the value you place on the cost of the service or product which must be considered whether to subscribe or not .. not a principal.


----------



## vicdicdoc (May 14, 2005)

I can't see any logical argument - 'membership' fee for MHF wouldn't buy me a round of drinks and if I was that short of money that I couldn't afford it I'd be selling my motorhome & buying a pushbike. 
As for not paying 'on principal' . . . ??? 
I get immense enjoyment from reading the posts, asking & getting replies to my questions, having the opportunity to meet other motorhomers & generally getting my moneysworth.
Although help, advice & information is given freely by other MHF members & friends -anyone who thinks everything should be free should sign up to their local library & see if the info they seek is on the shelves - I'd bet next years subs that it isn't.


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Jim, Vic, all

MHF is not a club as far as I am aware, if it is can you point me to the constitution?

I and all the others involved in the RV insurance thread would have done the same even without the subscriptions.

Discounts will be given to any group of people, no supplier I have ever aproached in the past ever asked if subs were collected.

There are many groups out there that organise meets and gatherings and do not have any subs.

So not one of the things above actually need's subscriptions to occur.

One of the biggest camping forums on the net (everything from tents to motorhomes and anything in between), they probably use more bandwidth in an hour then we do all day and they do all of the above and do not charge a penny to the end user's.

Simple fact is that Dave (Nuke) wants/needs to make a living, I certainly do not begrudge him some remuneration for his efforts. We are paying for Daves time

BTW before anyone accuses me of being anti subs I am not, I paid and also I donated money when there were no subs ( far more than the subs cost this year )


----------



## mauramac (May 24, 2005)

My pennyworth - for that is all it is probably worth :roll: 
Like Frank, I knew nothing whatsoever about MH's when I registered on this site way back when it first began. I also could not contribute any useful advice back then but was totally overwhelmed by the help, advice and many laughs along the way from some very kind people on here. 

Occasionally I have felt brave enough to put forward a couple of suggestions which I believe have been helpful and feel that I am not just a taker these days (despite still waiting to get a vehicle to actually use).

I do not object to paying this small fee to subscribe but I do try to understand the feelings of those who do object like Frank and the others.

What I do object to most strongly and simply cannot understand is the aggressive and totally childish postings of a few people who ruin the whole atmosphere of this site. If a TV or radio program were to offend me as much I would simply switch it off but I don't want to switch off from MHF and mostly these idiots just go away all by themselves and save me the bother.

Please can we keep things friendly and helpful and stop being so petty and childish.... I often think I have wandered into a school playground instead of a intelligent friendly forum.

Thats it, all said now and you can be offended if you wish, but there is no offence intended in anything I post on here.

Maura

ps. Just for the record I'm not too keen on the 10 free postings rule or the Members Bar recently added which seems to have 'fragmented' the community here.


----------



## 96105 (Aug 23, 2005)

*in reply*

hi all 
" mauramac wrote" 
What I do object to most strongly and simply cannot understand is the aggressive and totally childish postings of a few people who ruin the whole atmosphere of this site. If a TV or radio program were to offend me as much I would simply switch it off but I don't want to switch off from MHF and mostly these idiots just go away all by themselves and save me the bother.

Please can we keep things friendly and helpful and stop being so petty and childish.... I often think I have wandered into a school playground instead of a intelligent friendly forum.

yes totally agree =D> =D> =D> and i would think most would agree also mauramac  
saruman


----------



## 88916 (May 10, 2005)

Hi all
Thank you Frank a very good post. You have expressed everything I feel about the subject.


----------



## grouch (Oct 1, 2005)

Would totally agree with the likes of vicdicdot and mauramac.

Who could object to paying a subscription (especially such a small one) to be able to access so much knowledge. Whoever provides it. The only thing now that would make me decide to no longer belong is all the snide little quips that seem to constantly rise up. If Motorhomefacts fails surely this would be one of the main reasons.

We travel a lot in the motorhome and have done since 1988. During that time I think we have only met two objectionable motorhomers. Everyone else has been interesting, helpful and enthusiastic. Long may this continue!!!


----------



## Pusser (May 9, 2005)

I agree to. Keep it sensible... :roll:


----------



## mauramac (May 24, 2005)

Just a thought and not sure if it would work but wouldn't it be friendlier if non-members/subscribers were able to continue to take full part in the forums etc without restricting them to just 10 free posts by signing in as "Guest" somehow.

Only full members/subscribers would be able to take advantage of discounts - thereby gaining the often mentioned 'value for money' by belonging to the group. 

Perhaps this would reduce the number of people being miffed and leaving the site and reduce the "Us and Them" syndrome that seems to be developing and is very divisive. It would also give newcomers a fair way of using the site before deciding whether to commit to becoming a full member. After all most people are happy to give their advice for free - I pay the subs for all the time and technical expertise of Nuke for running and maintaining the site.

I apologise if this has already been suggested or decided against - have to say I gave up on previous discussions as it started to get a bit unpleasant.

Maura


----------



## C7KEN (May 27, 2005)

Mauramac I would agree with you, although I am a very contented member obviously some are not so maybe some concessions need to be made, similarly if there are some who will continue to complain then they may be better served elswhere although I wish they would just stop complaining and enjoy this site


----------



## 88757 (May 9, 2005)

I have to say I heartily agree with MauraMac. If we are not going to be able to exchange information, opinions and even just chit chat with so many people, that has to be to the detriment of the site in the longer term. Subscribers could get the discounts etc., but the Forums should, by whatever means, be open to all. I do hope we don't become an exclusive group who exclude others. I can't agree with the Club analogy. Surely a Club would have all decisions made by a vote of the full membership and not just the Moderators? Don't misunderstand me I am perfectly happy to pay my subs, just as I was happy to donate. I also have great respect for the Mods, who are willing to give of their time unselfishly. I just hope MHF stays the wonderful, helpful, friendly site it was when I came across it via a google search.
Mary


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi 

I would happily see everyone with free and unfettered access to the foums, I have said that all along, but would all subscribers be happy? Maybe with Nukes permission a vote in the members bar?

Total free access to all regardless of subs?


----------



## beagle (Sep 25, 2005)

I happily paid up simply because I've learnt so much from this site. I started out pretty bewildered despite having spent much more than the subscription on the magazines before I found MHF. Because of this forum I've had the confidence to order my van from Germany and will be collecting soon. This will have saved me thousands. I am hugely appreciative of the friendly advice, impressed by the willingness of people to take the time and trouble - and I love the humourous exchanges that I eavesdrop on. 

Some people spoil things, and I wish they wouldn't, but it's a small minority. I know the avatars and simply don't read their contributions. 

As for the members/non-members thing, my view is that it gives guests a real feel for what MHF is about without any pressure to join. They can get lots and lots of good information for free - great. If they want to play a full part in the community, stick around and maybe put something back in, then a small subscription to help keep the site running at a high standard isn't much to ask. I know a lot of thought was put into the decision to charge - personally I think it was the right one and I hope MHF remains a friendly place to be and can cope with any disagreement over something that's really not that big a deal. Arguably...


----------



## 96105 (Aug 23, 2005)

*beagle*



beagle said:


> I happily paid up simply because I've learnt so much from this site. I started out pretty bewildered despite having spent much more than the subscription on the magazines before I found MHF. Because of this forum I've had the confidence to order my van from Germany and will be collecting soon. This will have saved me thousands. I am hugely appreciative of the friendly advice, impressed by the willingness of people to take the time and trouble - and I love the humourous exchanges that I eavesdrop on.
> 
> Some people spoil things, and I wish they wouldn't, but it's a small minority. I know the avatars and simply don't read their contributions.
> 
> As for the members/non-members thing, my view is that it gives guests a real feel for what MHF is about without any pressure to join. They can get lots and lots of good information for free - great. If they want to play a full part in the community, stick around and maybe put something back in, then a small subscription to help keep the site running at a high standard isn't much to ask. I know a lot of thought was put into the decision to charge - personally I think it was the right one and I hope MHF remains a friendly place to be and can cope with any disagreement over something that's really not that big a deal. Arguably...


hi beagle
took the words out of my mouth . 
=D> =D> =D> =D> well said
saruman


----------



## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

I've been a "member" from the earliest days, through the early hiccups where everything Dave had done (and we had posted) was lost, to now. 
I had a bit more time on my hands a while ago and never a day went by that I didn't log on, not so now. Having had vans for 30 odd years I've amassed a fair bit of knowledge ref motorcaravans and my profession has given me different skills, which I have always been ready to pass on to help others. Most of my posts have been made in an effort to help / give advice to those seeking it, indeed I have never directly benefited (to my knowledge) from any members post, other than the humour of pusser and maybe a couple of others.
Well the purpose of this post is simply to say farewell to all as I choose not to pay. I'll spare my other 9 posts for any opportunity to help others after that I'll just browse.

John


----------



## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

Is anything that is free worth having?

The only really free things in this life is your own thoughts!

You wouldn't wont mine. Even for free. :wink: 


For those that have given everything and received nothing I wish you well and safe journeys.


----------



## Invicta (Feb 9, 2006)

I can't understand what all this 'to pay or not to pay' is about!

The information given may have been freely given but the site on which to put it certainly isn't as I know having just paid to have my business web site hosting and domain name renewed!

And if Nuke is making a profit out of the site, not taking into account all the man hours he must spend on it, well good luck to him from one entrepreneur to another!


----------



## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

Hear Hear Invicta. Nowts for free these days. I dont begrudge a penny of the subs. Like george I contributed more than was necessary before subs started and will continue to do so. I havent bothered to try to claim any discounts from anybody yet to get my money back, may do one day. Just enjoy visiting the forum every day and increasing my knowledge of all things motorhoming. There is no way this forum will die you only have to look at the stats to see that. What started all this off again anyways?


----------



## peteandjay (May 1, 2005)

I must be missing something here. Pay 20, 30, 40, or £50000 for a camper then complain about a £10 fee to access a bloody good site/community, with loads of information and friendly help. It beggers belief.


----------



## vicdicdoc (May 14, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi
> 
> I would happily see everyone with free and unfettered access to the foums, I have said that all along, but would all subscribers be happy? Maybe with Nukes permission a vote in the members bar?
> 
> Total free access to all regardless of subs?


No George - paying [such a small sub] makes those feel that they are part of the "club" [yes that's what it is regardless of what 'outsiders' may think] - and as part of the club 'members' value MHF more.


----------



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Vic

This is not a club, if you look back at the early discussions you will see that, Nuke made that very clear. Note that thread may have been deleted, but regardless it is not a club.

Hi Pete and Jay

Everyone could access the site before subs, the only thing thats changed is that the people who have not paid have had facilities removed, the subs payer's have not gained any facilities.


Hi Tony

what they mean by the forum dying is that it will drop down to just a few posters, without new blood to stimulate new conversation or even rehash older ones with new perspective.

Most of the people that signed on did so in Jan, but even now after restrictions have been put in place for non-subscribers the take up as been extremely slow.

Now new people may take up faster than the stagnation sets in, but only time will tell whethor it chokes or builds

Hi Invicta 

Has a business paying for website hosting etc you have (most likely) been ripped off, I do accounts and see it all the while, someone sets the webpage up and pays 100's for hosting etc to Webmaster X and webmaster X pay's pence to hosting company.

There are really big forums/websites out there that do not charge a penny and still make a profit.


----------



## 96105 (Aug 23, 2005)

GeorgeTelford said:


> Hi Vic
> 
> This is not a club, if you look back at the early discussions you will see that, Nuke made that very clear. Note that thread may have been deleted, but regardless it is not a club.
> 
> ...


 SNAFU

SARUMAN


----------



## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

You better believe it, incredible eh. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Invicta (Feb 9, 2006)

Hi George,

I have just paid £23 for the renewal of the company's domain name and £58 for the web site hosting. both include VAT. Are you suggesting this is too much? 

I am about to commission a new web site for the company. How much would you suggest I should pay for this? 

PS The new web site builder is coming in the morning at 10 am so a prompt reply would be very much appreciated.


----------



## gromett (May 9, 2005)

£23 for the domain does sound a lot unless you are using a .tv in which case it is a bit on the cheap side.

.com .net .org .info and .biz should never be much more than £10 per year.
.uk domain should never be much more than around £10 for 2 years.

If they are much cheaper than this, you need to wondering where they are making their money and what shortcuts they are taking. If it is much more than this you need to wondering either why are they ripping you off or why are they wasting so much for a basic service.

On the hosting side, that is much harder to judge as a lot of things come into play. Processor utilisation, bandwidth, data transfer quota, memory usage, disk usage. Special features such as email, webmail, spam filtering, virus filtering, etc etc etc etc £58 for hosting doesn't sound too bad to be honest for a reasonable package its about £4 a month which should get you a fair bit depending on the service level.

Web design side, thats how long is a bit of string and the result counts more than what the sales man tells/sells you.

Cheers
Karl


----------



## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi all,

regarding the World Wide Web I have a similar background as Frank. So, to be honest I have to admit that when the concept of a subscription fee was first introduced I had similar thoughts coming up to my mind.

However then I realized that while the information flow on the Internet should be free of charge, *providing infrastructure is not!* Back in the good old academic times when the universities provided free Internet access for all their students, the costs for the infrastructure were all covered just by these universities, which in the end meant in my case the tax payer, as German universities did not charge any tuition fees at that time.

Now I know that there are so-called "free" web service providers out there, but first they all apply certain restrictions reg. band width etc., of which I am sure MHF would collide with within days, if not hours, being as lively as it is. Second, most of them flood the users with more or less annoying advertising.

Knowing the costs (and the effort) needed to run a web server, and especially such an excellent one as MHF, I am quite sure that the revenues from the subscription fee barely cover the costs that Dave (nukeadmin) has from running MHF.

So finally, seeing it as an appreciation for Dave's excellent work, I had no problem paying the subscription fee.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


----------



## 98172 (Mar 16, 2006)

Thank you all very much for replying to this thread and I appreciate those views that have been expressed without the need to personalise the issues under discussion.

I do have some comments. May I start by saying that this thread was written to simply declare my views on the subject and I was careful to point this out, they were just my views; I was not trying to sway anybody from their own beliefs.

I did not attack any member in my post and had hoped that the thread would remain neutral in that regard but clearly some members simply cannot help themselves when the opportunity to attack somebody presents itself.

What members here do with their own money is entirely their affair; it doesn't bother me in the slightest whether they pay for membership or not, I am not out to attempt to persuade people one way or the other.



Scotjimland said:


> Principals about the right to free information and the right to free forums are a smokescreen.


I think that it is sad that you personalise here with the suggestion that I am using the moral high ground presumably to disguise the fact that I do not want to part with £10



Scotjimland said:


> here is no such thing as a 'free lunch' and whether you think it is GVFM or not, the subscription of £10 will easily be recouped over and over again ..


What a sorry world you must live in. Can you not understand that if I give something freely and it is accepted, then whatever is given is free, whether object or knowledge.

What is more bewildering to me is the fact that you attack this post and yet only recently complained that you were yourself a victim of attack on this forum. Additionally you were actually the first to respond to this thread and didn't raise any of the latter issues in your first post. Were you simply showboating the second time around?



vicdicdoc said:


> As for not paying 'on principal' . . . ???


I'm sorry but I can't really respond to this until you try to complete the sentence.



vicdicdoc said:


> - anyone who thinks everything should be free should sign up to their local library & see if the info they seek is on the shelves -


Maybe not everything will be found in the library but at least it is available to all, regardless of class or means to pay.

I do wonder how many members with a similar attitude would be happy if every time they logged on to Google they were presented with a large red sign giving the cost of their query. Or if they simply wanted to visit a few sites to compare various aspects of a project that they had in mind and found that payment was required for each of them. I could go on but I think that the point is made, where would it all stop and who would be able to afford it?



vicdicdoc said:


> No George - paying [such a small sub] makes those feel that they are part of the "club" [yes that's what it is regardless of what 'outsiders' may think] - and as part of the club 'members' value MHF more.


This reply reeks of elitism and it is this kind of attitude that is at the root of many of the troublesome posts on the forum IMO since it forges an 'us and them' attitude.

The cost of running a forum such as this has been raised. I am aware of the costs of such things since I also pay for server space. I host several web sites and a forum all of which I have built myself so I am also aware of the effort that is involved. I do not have any hosting income from any of these.

The point is that there are many reasons why an individual may produce a forum and often it can be simply to have the satisfaction of achieving the build and watching people enjoy using it, yes, I am aware that this concept will be alien to some.

I belonged to a photography forum that I thought was particularly good and so gave a donation. I know for a fact that the author of that forum made a lot of money from such donations and this is before one considers other avenues of revenue such as advertising.

George and others mentioned that they had donated to this site prior to compulsory membership, would not this system, voluntary donation, be acceptable to the author of this forum as a means of revenue?



Invicta said:


> And if Nuke is making a profit out of the site, not taking into account all the man hours he must spend on it, well good luck to him from one entrepreneur to another!


I still don't see why one individual should make money out of the input from many others.

The question of club status has come up but has been addressed very ably by others so I will refrain from further comment.

Regards

Frank


----------



## annej (May 27, 2005)

Can someone give me a link to the posts on "payment for membership" in the week 28.04.2006-05.05.2006. I must have missed them, although I don't know how I managed that 8O 

Anne


----------



## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

> if every time they logged on to Google they were presented with a large red sign giving the cost of their query


The thing is this is a corporation worth Billions and is supported by revenue generated from many other avenues. I am not !



> The point is that there are many reasons why an individual may produce a forum and often it can be simply to have the satisfaction of achieving the build and watching people enjoy using it, yes, I am aware that this concept will be alien to some.


Well actually MHF was completely 100% free for the entire site from October 2003-January 2006 so i think i served my apprenticeship first before jumping in to subs.



> I belonged to a photography forum that I thought was particularly good and so gave a donation. I know for a fact that the author of that forum made a lot of money from such donations and this is before one considers other avenues of revenue such as advertising.


The problem with this avenue is that its completely unpredictable as a source of funding especially when one has gone the dedicated server route and out of the realms of free/very cheap hosting costs. On a personal front i detested being what i considered a charity case and offered money on a plate. My principals didn't agree with this type of funding Frank. As for advertising, I went through these lines of research and the two things hit me, companies don't like paying to advertise online and pay the same costs they would to a physical medium, until very recently the most i could have got out of a advertiser for a banner image for a year would be £200, whereas a similar magazine advert would probably command more like £1000 per month !! so the only way to recoup all costs and some pin money is to swamp the site with adverts fr different advertisers, secondly if your main income flow is from advertisers you then lose "independence" i.e. if someone berates a company that provides a large chunk of the sites revenue then you lose impartiality whereas my advertisers pay a tiny portion of the running costs.

I do understand that you don't wish to pay, what i don't understand is why people who don't wish to pay to be a subscriber of MHF simply don't, instead of coming on the site constantly going over old ground, this has been discussed to death tbh Frank. The situation isn't going to change, MHF is a subscription based site, i am happy with the site as it is, the stats rise every month, revenue comes in to cover the costs and a bit more besides, discounts flow in etc etc etc
and long may it continue


----------



## xgx (Oct 14, 2005)

Frymer
I enjoyed your posts in this thread, it's a refreshing change to read a point of view expressed cogently and coherently.

As for the subject, it remains a matter of personal choice.


----------



## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

'NUKE'

Hear Hear


----------



## grouch (Oct 1, 2005)

Just out of interest and forgive me if this question has been asked before but just how many of the 10000 odd members are actual subscribers?


----------



## vicdicdoc (May 14, 2005)

Oh dear Oh dear . . . I was going to continue with this thread - but I've got a life to lead.


----------



## 97075 (Dec 30, 2005)

I am frankly quite amused by all this discussion.

The majority of web sites are very cheap to run, successful sites however are not so cheap. Large numbers of hits force the web master to source more reliable and competent hosting companies - including DNS hosting (domain name stuff) to ensure that everything works in a timely manner, this ultimately means paying more to the hosting companies.

As for revenue generation to pay for all this, no matter what we think, Motorhoming is a niche market. Advertisers will not pay big money for no or limited return. On a mass market site - such as a Car forum, then I would expect advertising revenues to be higher and therefore subscriptions to the lower or non existent.

There was a previous reference to Google, just to put this into perspective, if you search on the three words "Private Medical Insurance" in Google, and sponsored links appear or the right hand side. Every time someone clicks on those links the company that appears there is charged £8 plus vat - sale or no sale. That is why your searches are free. This is fact, I pay the bills for it.

All in all, Nuke *and all* the "members" here have created a wonderful resource here that I for one find invaluable. I am happy to pay simply because it is a niche market. Assuming that we do not believe in cross subsidisation from another business - I don't know another way of Nuke generating income to cover costs (and time).

MarkM


----------



## JustRadio (May 21, 2005)

Frymer said:


> I have every respect for entrepreneurs who work hard at trying to make an honest living; it's just that I can't agree with it when it involves the buying and selling of information that has been input by the membership. Clearly many of you will disagree with my view, but it is just that, my view and I just feel uncomfortable with the idea as a whole.
> :?


I haven't read all the intervening 43 responses so I apologise if they've covered this. The choice to stay or go is ones own, but many organisations thrive of being a market exchange, and it matters not if the exchange is goods, shares (markets), air brokers, ship brokers, etc. etc. or simply the exchange of ideas. Nor does it matter if the items are free or for sale, it is the means of exchanging them which is being paid for, and the value of a developed infrastructure for doing it.

There was a time when advertising on the Internet was expected to meet the operating requirements of sites like this, but as we all know revenue from advertising has fallen in a big way.

I don't like to pay either, and I would like to think that it could be done another way, but equally I feel uncomfortable having "expectations" of a product which is free and funded for love. Now I have paid I can expect a higher level of provision and service.

Putting it kindly, perhaps you've spent too long in academia and believed too much in the post hippy California expectation for the www. Perhaps should the day ever come when ISP services are also free....


----------



## badger (May 9, 2005)

An elequent original post by Frymer.

I too said no when asked to pay. I was a bit "miffed" to say the least when I had for quite a while been using the site for free. 

Why should I pay? I asked myself............bloody cheek I said to myself..........Then I asked will I miss it if I leave?......Yes........is there another site that is as friendly, as humerous, as knowledgeable and is free etc.?........
Maybe but not to my knowledge..........So I paid.

I'm not a rallier.......a club member.........one of the clique........one of the elite.......(god forbid)

But I enjoy using this site, I get benefit from it in terms of, information, amusement, entertainment and to cap it all discounts on stuff so I can get my money back...................I'm glad I paid.

Frymer ....if you have a problem arriving at the same answers.......then dont pay, just leave.......... 

You have made your point and arguing about it will not alter either the paid up members opinions nor the ultimate decisions on the owner of this site.

We wish you pleasant Journeys.

Regards

Badger


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

The last three posts say it all and I echo Badgers sentiments. If you don't want to subscribe just leave and go elsewhere and leave others who enjoy the site in peace.

peedee


----------



## 2point (Jun 10, 2005)

I personally didn't analyse in great detail the principle or otherwise of payment.

For me it is a similar case to Badger, the discounts I have used alone have paid for my subs, and likely to do so on an ongoing basis, therefore the sie for me is free.

If there was another site that was as frequently visited and contributed to and free I'd probably go there. For the sites I have visited they don't match what is here, nevermind surpass it.

If it was purely information I would be unlikely to pay and just browse, the added value of the discounts negociated on my behalf is more than worth it, simple maths, simple decsion.


----------



## mauramac (May 24, 2005)

Apart from "GAS ATTACKS" I don't think any other subject has caused so many postings 8O

*Nuke* - I have no probs at all with the subs, I'm happy to pay OK? 
Anyone else's business if you want to charge to use this site - No it isn't.

10 posts only to non-members - No, I don't like that.
Members Bar - No, I'm not comfortable with that either.

Discounts only to fee paying members - sounds a good idea to me.

I wish "The Guest" idea would be considered as I think it would stop all this being regurgitated over and over again - and hopefully allow this excellent site to continue with all (well almost all) being happy.

That just about says all I have to say.

Maura


----------



## frenchfancy (May 21, 2005)

Although i can see Franks point of view, and i have noticed the needle that has been building up for a while aka George. Come on guys, this is the best website for info, especially if you are fairly new like me, I paid the £5 subs by the deadline, and think it is the best fiver i have spent, when you consider MMM is £3.10 and nearly all ads. The wealth of info available is priceless and someone is always there if you have a problem with your M/H. Why don't we all just chill, and enjoy sharing all our info and news etc. Thanks to the moderators for all their hard work


----------



## solentviews (May 9, 2005)

My own personal view. I been on motorhomefacts.com since the early days. When it was donations, I gave a donation and felt the rewards were well worth the money. Now it is subscription based I am actually into pocket. I still think it is worthwhile and the rewards are incalculable in knowledge gained assistance received and friendly rapport. Long may it continue.
Ian


----------



## rowley (May 14, 2005)

I was content to pay the subscription even though I thought that I would never use the discount facility. However, I have just spent a few days at Penmarlam Campsite and obtained my 5% discount, thanks Nuke.


----------



## billym (Dec 17, 2005)

We payed. We escaped Great Britain a few months ago on a very cheap ferry we heard about on here and now I am so glad we did 'cos the CYBERMEN ARE BACK......but not here they're not. So good luck you will need it.


----------



## dodger148 (May 9, 2005)

This topic has been thrashed well and truly for months.

Before MHF started there was another community (where in fact quite a few of us came from to the original MHF site ) on the go that was developing as MHF has developed, but as it grew John found it nigh on impossible to fund and had to call it a day, both for cash and time reasons.

I know people say you can get web space for free, but when the site become big you have to pay for reliable webspace etc. We had hickups and instability with the original site, but generally speaking since the new site/equipment has been up and running there has been few problems when the sites usage is taken into consideration ieage visits/day and numbers on the site at the same time. 
Sure it may be slow when there are loads on but do remember there can be more people viewing this site at any one time than other fora have in total members.

Dave did try various options to his credit but in the end subscriptions was the only way
to keep this community going as you wanted it.

Could we please try and give the topic a rest now - it takes up valuable space

Remember you always have the power, to either, pay a sub, or just view the site, or indeed not visit - no one forces anybody to type a URL in the address bar


----------



## 99184 (May 13, 2006)

SARUMAN said:


> GeorgeTelford said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Vic
> ...


Did you call? 

I'm using one of my last 'free' posts here to put my two Euros worth. I've only been on here for three days but already have saved a fortune on insurance, got some technical help that no dealer has been able to supply me with, and as a consequence, bought a new MH. Yes,there are other bigger forums than run for free, but I try and contribute a little to those who do need donations, because the price of knowledge is above, er rubies.

I think of the ten quid sub as the price of a drink , and considering how much return I've got already, I'm very happy to pay it. Other's may feel diffferently of course, but for me it's a tenner well spent.

regards

s.


----------



## 98316 (Mar 25, 2006)

*Payment*

I just want to say that having worked in the internet industry I know how much it can cost to get a website hosted with unlimited bandwith each month or year. Add into this the cost of ringing the 0870 technical support numbers plus the cost of purchasing the software to design the website in the first place and I have no objection to paying the subscription fee for this site.

We ourselves are fairly new to the world of motor homing, we are now on our second vehicle in the last year and the information and advice we have obtained from this site has been invaluable in helping us to choose the right model for ourselves and also over come the few technical hitches we've encountered since having the new motorhome. I realise this information is freely given but someone is paying for this site to be hosted, designed, monitored etc....

Since being on here we have saved ourselves money on items purchased through the outdoorbits.com website, we've had a free battery master installed with our Van Bitz motor home alarm, we were able to take advice on which security systems were worth installing plus we've saved an additional 10% on our motorhome insurance as a result of having the alarm installed.

Please keep up the good work, this site has been a great help and I only hope I can help by offering some advice to new comers when I have a bit more experience under my belt.


----------



## mauramac (May 24, 2005)

*Dodger said....
"Could we please try and give the topic a rest now - it takes up valuable space
Remember you always have the power, to either, pay a sub, or just view the site, or indeed not visit - no one forces anybody to type a URL in the address bar"*

sorry Dodger not sure how to use proper quotes but I cannot understand why you want to stop people - who for the most part are making very positive comments about the whole subs issue from continuing this type of thread. This is a democratic website surely?

Please continue to stop, and moderate when there is unnecessary aggressive and objectionable posts but please don't tell members to 'give it a rest' under the very sad reason that 'it takes up valuable space' just because you seem to object to the postings. I find this quite rude - sorry to have to say so and I think this is the first time I have ever complained about anything on here.

To put it into perspective...
A recent post about " Tell Me A Story"...which was very amusing, went on for endless pages without being rebuked for taking up valuable space????

Maura


----------



## xgx (Oct 14, 2005)

Maura
Thanks for that perspective 8O ... you've just saved me from having a pop this thread running on  

quite right, everyone should have their say... within the bounds of decency and decorum of course :wink:


----------



## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

Hi Maura,

i dont think Dodger minds the thread, its just that this has been raised a lot of times in the past lol

I dont mind let it ride, the more positive comments the better


----------



## teamsaga (Feb 26, 2006)

as a newcomer i have read the subscription debate with some interest. last week i collected my first motorhome , before getting it i joined c&cc. and c.c . they both provided me with information i.e. books listing hundreds of sites, the information in those books was freely available elsewhere, but supplying it to me was not . printing the info and delivering to my door costs. i will be quite happy to subscribe , but will have to post it i hate putting card numbers onto the leaky internet. regards phil


----------



## 97324 (Jan 17, 2006)

*agree*

Sorry but i agree with frymer. 8O


----------



## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

Hi Phil (teamsaga)

You make a good point there, isn't all this type of publishing simply a gathering together of available information to be published in one convenient location? It isn't really relevent whether the means of distribution be in print or on the internet there are still costs and labour involved in the compilation.

Adressing your concerns about credit cards and the internet, I think it has been statistically proven that you have far greater risk of your card details being abused if you use it at a restaurant or a shop than on the internet. Oh, by the way, don't use your chip & pin at a Shell cyber-garage eh? :wink:

Hoping to welcome you as a full member soon.


----------



## mauramac (May 24, 2005)

Hi & this is my last post on this thread....OK?

I just felt the comment about taking up valuable space was insensitive and unnecessary and devalued the time and trouble people had taken to contribute their opinions.

'Most' contributors are well aware when a topic has run its course and eventually it comes to a natural end - there will always be the ones that go on too long and everything gets repeated over and over, but with the huge numbers of members now being involved surely this is to be expected and tolerated - especially when the posts are not abusive or unfriendly.

As I said before the popular "Gas Attack" postings are a similar case for being talked and talked and talked :roll: about but as new members join they will most probably bring the subject up all over again - not sure why they shouldn't be allowed to do so without the fear of using up valuable space.

Thats it, had my say.
Maura


----------



## artona (Jan 19, 2006)

*Oh, by the way, don't use your chip & pin at a Shell cyber-garage eh? *

Our local shell garage is now 3p a litre cheaper than tescos and you sign rather than chip

stew


----------

