# Charging via alternator / PSU



## Andysam (May 10, 2005)

No this isn't another let's do it again topic, BUT in a recent (long) post it was generally agreed that if a vehicle was left to charge over a long (week) period it would do a half decent job of charging the batt(s) through a zig/PMS due to the low amperage over a long period. It's just if this is the case it seems pointless (for me) to buy another charger especially if driving will then "drain off" or equalize the well charged battery with the veh one.

So the Qs are these:

1. Does it charge well in this case?
2. Will it damage the battery?


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Andysam, Charging must be via a correctly set, voltage regulated, temperature compensated charger to achieve maximum battery life. Quality mains chargers have these features built in, and if I'm right in thinking you mean the leisure battery, then no damage will occur.

Batteries can be charged from 10.5V to 90% in 3.5 hours with a decent Mains charger.

Match the charging system to the battery. 

Driving will have no draining effect on your charged leisure batt

Dave


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## Andysam (May 10, 2005)

I don't mean an independant mains charger, I'm talking about the built in PSU (Power Supply Unit) already fitted to the van. Is it safe to leave this on for a week without damaging the batts?

George and others, also agreed that test and experience showed the leisure batt to lose capacity when driven after charging. George does seem to know his electric "eggs"!


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

Yep no problem,
 

Just like been parked on a campsite plugged into the hook-up, all the time your hooked you are charging the batts.


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## 93795 (May 1, 2005)

Hi M&D that seems a strange setup you have if your battery charges all the time you are on hook-up, can you not switch the power unit from charging the battery to just supplying the 12v electrics?
Phil.


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## Andysam (May 10, 2005)

I physically have to switch my charger on, ergo I am not automatically charging the batts. Anyone?


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi All

It would seem that some van setups do in fact charge the leisure battery via the powersupply all the time a hook up is available. In another thread Jabber described that in his Autosleeper Executive the only way to stop his onboard charger is to switch its supply off at the breaker box, which is pretty useless since the same breaker feeds the fridge, yet in my Executive (different year) I can get at the charger and the switch which is on the side of it.

Now onto whether a fully charged leisure battery is in fact "discharged" whist driving due to it being connected by the split charge relay to the vehicle battery and altenator.

George is convinced that following a full charge to the leisure battery with an intelligent charger if you then drive the vehicle, the battery will in fact be less fully charged after the drive. I also had my suspicions that this happens and yesterday did my own (not very scientific) test. Before the drive both the leisure and the vehicle batteries were shown to be fully charged by my Intelligent Charger. The charger has a display which shows that they are fully charged. An amber charging LED goes to Green! If when the batteries have been charged like this I then switch off the intelligent charger for a day or so then when reconnected the charge level will have dropped a little (amber LED)but the battery will be back up within 5 minutes and the charger will go into maintenance mode (green LED)

Both batteries were at green before I set off on my drive. I drove a round trip of 32 miles. Whilst away the vehicle battery was obviously in use but all load connections to the leisure battery were switched off. On my return I connected to the mains and connected the intelligent charger again to the leisure battery, Guess what? the battery needed charging. The intelligent charger took around 20 minutes or so to get the battery back up to "fully" charged (green LED)

I then connected the charger to the vehicle battery, it showed that this needed some charging too.

So there you are two fully charged batteries before driving....both needed charging after a 32 mile trip.

So what do you make of this?

By the way before you ask...yes I do know that the alternator is giving a full (for an alternator) charge rate.


There is little I can do about it, I am not going to alter the wiring of my van for the sake of a couple of amp/hours. But it is interesting, and maybe when I am driving I should disconnect the split charge from the leisure battery and charge it via an invertor running from the vehicle battery and the intelligent charger.


Mike


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## Brambles (May 12, 2005)

There is actually a reason for this and comes down to the ripple produced by the alternator which does not produce a constant charge voltage but is rectified 3 phase sinewave. The ripple causes odd charging/discharge patternes in a battery system and the result is you cannot fully charge a connected battery and will indeed discharge a fully charged battery a small amount if there are circuits drawing power. Drive with the head lights on and you will find you will need even more charge from your intelligent charger to top up to maximum charge level after a run.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Brambles all

The reason for leaching is that :

It is an accepted fact (by experts the world over) that an alternator will not charge a battery to more than 65-70% of full.

So when the fully charged leisure battery is connected in paralell with the Partially full starter battery, the Fuller battery tries to equalise with the starter.

There is however the alternator putting out a voltage that should counter this, BUT the alternator reacts to loads therefore there is a constant lag during this lag, the leaching takes place. Also Kirsches law (probably spelt wrong) shows that if there are two or more power supplies in a circuit all will provide some of the power (this just follows Ohms law)

BTW If you fully charge at home then drive for a few hours the Leisure battery will eventually drop to the same level as the starter ie only 65-70% full.

Unless there is a problem with either the battery or the "zig type" "charger" then leaving it connected 24/7/365 will not be a problem.

Unless you are going to fit a smart regulator this will always occur ( 4 stage smart regulator takes over from the alternators regulator and turns it into decent charger) 

You could fit a split charge Diode this would stop the leaching however a diode causes a .7 v voltage drop which would then render the charging voltage useless.

If fitted in conjunction with a smart regulator the regulator "allows" for the voltage drop.

George


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## Brambles (May 12, 2005)

Hi George. Just for information..

Kirchoff's Current Law:

Kirchoff's Current Law states that 'the algebraic sum of the current meeting at any point in a circuit is zero'.
In other words the sum of all currents entering a junction must equal the sum of those leaving it.

Kirchoff's Voltage Law:

Kirchoff's Voltage Law states that 'in travelling round any closed mesh (section) of a network (circuit) , the algebraic sum of the emfs (voltages) acting in the mesh is equal to the algebraic sum of the IR voltage drops for the individual resistances in the mesh.'

In other words the sum of all voltage sources must equal the sum of all voltages dropped across resistances in the circuit, or part of circuit.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Brambles

It (Kirschovs) I read it to explain, why when driving around the starter leaches from the leisure battery. Physics I enjoy, but have never "properly" understood the above law. 

When researching why the above leaching occurs this law cropped up I read it to say that the current would be taken equally from all "corners" of the Circuit.

George


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## AutoK (May 1, 2005)

Hi.
Kirchoffs law in very simpllified terms just means that you can't mysteriously loose voltage or gain voltage in a cicuit.

Imagine 4 cars arrive at a road junction, then 4 cars must leave the junction (if only 3 cars leave wheres the 4th)
A bit over simpified I know but I wouldn't worry too much.

Cheers.
Kieran.


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## Andysam (May 10, 2005)

So the gist is it's okay for long term power supply charging and not worth the time and expense of a 3/4stage charger if the current set up work okay.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Andy

If you charge regularly for a long time between trips yes its OK, If you neglect to do long (ie1 to 2 week charges) the battery will die in a couple of years.

If the battery is ever deeply discharged and left for any length of time 6-12 hours without getting the charger going the Sulphation will defeat the "Zig" and the battery will not Charge, This is the reason most leisure batteries get thrown away, the battery is not really dead but its beyond the ZIG to break down the sulphation.

The budget 3 stage from Sterling only costs around £50, its will last you years, ensure you have fully Charged batteries very quickly ie it will fully charge a 110 ah battery in under 12 hours (compared to 1 to 2 weeks via ZIG)

George


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## 93795 (May 1, 2005)

George, have you any idea what percentage of units have a 'zig' fitted? I'm just curious as you mention it frequently and I had never heard of it before I started reading some of your posts.
Thanks, 
Phil.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Phil

Its a bit like Hoover, there other names Plug in systems for one. Many people say "I cant fathom my Zig out" or some such when they have'nt even got a ZIG as such (ie they own an equivilent) they all operate at the 13.8v setting and are all as bad (I have not found one motorhome yet with a proper charger fitted as standard)

Contrary to popular belief mtorhome manufacturers dont fit proper "chargers" They all seem to have the same "ZIG" or equivilent power supplies fitted (anything that takes 2 weeks (and possibly more)) to charge a battery doesnt Qualify as a "Proper" Charger (to me).


George


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## Brambles (May 12, 2005)

Hi Phil and George,

I have a Nordelettronica on my italian built home. It charges to an end point of 14.4 volts and then switches back to a maintainance voltage of 13.8 volts. 
Before laying vehicle up for a few weeks I aways charge via the M/homes power supply and then disconnect the Liesure battery as the control panel for the vehicle electrics draws a quiescent current of about 50mA. 

Jon.


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## Andysam (May 10, 2005)

Thanks everyone, got my answer now....see boys wasn't that nice to have a reasoned debate :wink: 

Seriously thankyou to you ALL.

Andy


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## 93135 (May 1, 2005)

If the Sterling system was that good don't you think that all vehicle manufactureres would have a similar charging pattern incorporated into modern alternator design?. What is provided today is about the best compromise.

A battery that has become sulphated is pretty well... knackered!

Its unlikely that any charging regime will provide any long term recovery.

If you do modify your alternator and put a sterling type controller in the system make sure you don,t damage some of your equipment due to over voltage if you switch it ON during certain parts of the charging cycle.

ww


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Wedrobin 

Quote 

If the Sterling system was that good don't you think that all vehicle manufacturers would have a similar charging pattern incorporated into modern alternator design? 

End Quote 

No they don't need to, a battery that is 65-70% charged starts the vehicle, thats it Game over it doesn't need to do anything else 

Lets say 200 A for 2 seconds to start a vehicle that works out to .11 ah this takes all of 2 secs to recharge, the alternator is not and was not ever meant to be a charger its a power supply for the Vehicle it puts the tiny bit back in then supplies all the electrical needs for the rest of the Journey. The battery is no just a large smoothing Capacitor. 

With a leisure battery its different, we Generally want a fully charged battery (unless you are running a minimal system ie light and water pump) 

This requirement to fully charge the battery can never be achieved by using an alternator alone, if one were to drive from lands end to John O'Groats in one journey without stopping it would still not fully charge. 

Which is were a smart regulator comes in, these turn the alternator into a 4 stage smart charger, ensuring that batteries attain and retain a full charge. 

It is not true that a sulphated battery is dead, a zig or similar or alternator will not rescusitate it a good battery charger Like a Sterling will, it just needs the higher voltage that the alt and zig type stuff cannot provide. The sulphation is just the sulphuric acids discharged state it only hardens beyond recharging by poor chargers capacity, a Sterling will fully recharge the battery by breaking down the sulphation. Most leisure batteries get thrown away due to this (sulphation) 

If you're vehicle as sensitive electronics, then there is another version which will leave the vehicle side alone, but still charge the Leisure battery fully. 

George


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## 93135 (May 1, 2005)

George,
I hope you are not trying to sell this via the forum!

When the battery is sulphated and paste falls off the plates and lays in the bottom of the cell box thus shorting out the pos and neg electrodes then the battery is knackered, due for lead re-cycling. Believe me, 42 years in the business etc.

I agree that its possible to charge a battery to its FULL capability by alowing the voltage to rise above the "critical gassing voltage" but its NOT a good idea to do this while the battery is still connected to equipment it is intended to run. 
Nearly all chargers for electrically powered vehicles use this technique in various flavours. For really fast charging one can even agitate the electrolyte by bubbling air through it. But and its a BIG but, the battery is ALWAYS disconnected from everything else when these charging techniques are used. Voltages above 2.6 volts per cell are frequently seen. 
Also don,t forget that batteries charged using these techniques invariably have automatic watering systems as de-ionised top ups are required regularly.
Manual top up is today too labour intensive.
This is why I don,t believe the sterling system as advocated is that suitable for a motorhome leisure battery. If you need a bit more capacity fit a bigger / terciary battery.
Also don,t forget, you cannot charge gel cells as fast as wet cells, nor discharge them as much either.
Horses for courses. 

Me ? 160 AH Chloride emergency stand by batteries (2 X 6 volt) 14 volts 10 amp limited charger/PSU and 80 watt solar panel with regulator.
Alternator 100 amp bog standard Bosch.

P.S. I don,t go along with so called EMC relays either! Pain in the B.m.
All our bits work all the time.
ww


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Webwobin

Not selling, reccomending something that I believe we are allowed to do.

Battery Sulphation and Shedding are two entirely different things, sulphation is the natural chemical reaction which releases the power, the sulphuric acid forms a sulphate surface on the plates, it becomes a problem to weak chargers when it is allowed to go to far (deep discharge) and sit on the plates (ie leaving it a day or two before recharging).

Here is an article by Bill Darden that will explain the sulphation process and how to recover the battery.

http://www.optimabattery.freeserve.co.uk/batteryFAQ/carfaq16.htm

When the shedding reachs the bottom of the cells and shorts I agree dead battery, BUT this as nothing at all to do with sulphation.

Gassing is part and parcel of proper charging, even at alternator ordinary voltages the plates gas.

Re running electrical stuff at proper charging voltages.

While traveling its charging the engine battery and the leisure batteries, in general people are not running tv's and such. The only problems are likely to occur when people mistakenly assume that any item that runs on a 12v power supply is the same as an item which is designed to run at leisure vehicle rates

Explanation many people assume that a leisure battery is a 12v item in reality if the voltage is showing 12v The battery is flatter than it ever should be a fully charged battery should read around 12.8v

When hooked up a vehicle will be showing 13.8v, so a tv thats designed for a leisure vehicle use should be able to run safely on a voltage from around 12v to 13.8v with no adverse effects.

A Goodmans TV say that as a 12v power supply (for example only) is only expecting 12v and may be damaged by the higher voltage, on the other hand it may work perfectly.

The Sterling units are designed for Campers Yachts etc and are designed to fully charge and then power the vehicles leisure side all week while hooked up.

George


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## 93272 (May 1, 2005)

Well said webwobin, Georges theory sounds all right until its put into practice, something he hasn't actually done as yet.

Who really wants to be constantly topping up batteries that are gassing at every opportunity.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Zapped, Zaphod, Zap, Stuart, Kate and the Myriad other names you pop up, to have a go under.

Stick to one name and actually say something constructive.

And by the way yes I have put all of the above into Practice.

George


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## 93135 (May 1, 2005)

Surely in a yacht it will be necessary for equipment to be powered off the batteries at the same time as they are on charge. 2 way radio for example. These certainly do not like 15 or more volts up them. Then there is the radar. That to is designed for 12 - 14 volt operation. Bulbs will have a short life. In a boat heavy gassing caused by fast 100% charging providing a perfect mixture of hydrogen and oxygen for combustion is not to be recommended. OK I know they have to be externally ventilated but why increase the risk.
Sorry but from my standpoint the techniques used for rapid full battery charging are only suitable for batteries in traction and similar duties. In you boat or motorhome just use a bigger battery. Its safer, requires minimal maintenance, uses established well proven charging techniques that are adopted almost universally world wide. Plus it doesn,t invalidate the guarantee on your alternator.
As I said previously, if you want more capacity fit a bigger battery. 
KISS principle OK.


ww


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

webwobin said:


> Clipped: Sorry but from my standpoint the techniques used for rapid full battery charging are only suitable for batteries in traction and similar duties. As I said previously, if you want more capacity fit a bigger battery.
> KISS principle OK.


Hi Webwobbin

My intelligent charger which is a portable unit and not a power supply in no way could be described as a rapid charger and I have never seen it cause excessive gassing but it does ensure that the batteries are left in a fully charged state when standing and before use. This is the only way to maintain a lead acid battery if you want long life fom it.

Mike

Mike


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## 93272 (May 1, 2005)

So how many Motorhomes have you actually built yourself George, other than the one your in-laws built and sold to you and the bus that hasn't moved since you tried to have a go at self building. It might also be worth a mention of your excellent relationships with Sterling.

It cannot be safe, in practice, to have a battery desulphating in a confined environment such as a motorhome/camper. If you need lots more power, camp on a site with electrical hook-ups, buy a genny or get a bigger battery.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Mike

All proper chargers cause some gassing, even the weakling ZIG units, its an unavoidable part of the chemical reaction that charges the battery, the Sterling as the added benefit of being a power supply as well, used on yachtes the world over.

Quote

In you boat or motorhome just use a bigger battery. Its safer, requires minimal maintenance, uses established well proven charging techniques that are adopted almost universally world wide. Plus it doesn,t invalidate the guarantee on your alternator. 

Endquote

The Bigger battery theory, this is a poor idea why not fill the battery you have first? instead the idea is to carry more partially full batteries ? This is not only wasteful you are now abusing 2 batteries

The Charging regime employed on the Sterling Charger is the one reccomended by battery manufacturers the world over to achieve fast full charging, its fitted as new to alternaters on yachtes etc so I can only assume that it doesnt affect warranties there, also if its a new van and there is a warranty issue, use the other none intrusive version, problem solved.

Earlier you claimed 42 years in the business, what business may I ask?, one would have to assume its was not auto-electrics or battery related as you appear not to know the basics (ie mixing up Shedding and sulphation)

Radios and Radar are working the world over and in conjunction with Sterling Smart regulators (amongst others) that all use these higher voltages, so we have to assume they must be working ok still and there is not a problem.

If you fully charge a battery slowly, it will due to the chemical reaction required still repoduce the same a mount of flammable gas, so how is it safer?

Topping up batteries should be part of regular maintenance. If your not having to top up, then you battery is not being fully and properly charged. 


The next item will be Maintenance free batteries and how you dont need to top up etc.

Here is a quote from the Sterling brochure

If a battery claims to be maintenace free treat this claim with caution, there really is no such thing, all batteries are basically the same , Gel sealed lead acid and AGM are only maintenance free due to their REDUCED charging performance, if you charge a normal lead acid battery to the same charging curves then it becomes maintenance free too.

Endquote

If you want to fully charge a battery fast, you really dont want maintenance free.

KISS in reality is

Use a decent charger, top up your batteries

Not use poor charger, dont top up, replace the battery you have killed every 1 to 2 years.

George


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Stuart (Zapped)

According to your flawed logic one as to have built a motorhome to have used and fitted charging systems? Many people here have never built a motorhome and camper, but many have used and fitted chargers besides the standard fare.

I have rebuilt, assisted others and fitted chargers to many vans. I have and still am charging the batteries in the bus.

We both know CJT right ? He built his electrical system based on a set up reccomended by me, was he ever anything other than happy with its performance?

Has usual you are trying to cause trouble instead of being helpful, all of the things you are trying to do Sterling down with apply equally to the Ardverc system you like.

and finally

Quote

"It might also be worth a mention of your excellent relationships with Sterling."

endquote

Here stuart is trying inuendo to imply something underhand, so 

Would you like to expand on that? And I would advise you to be very careful here.

George


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## 89813 (May 1, 2005)

Good morning Stuart good morning George it’s a bit cold this morning!


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## 93272 (May 1, 2005)

Please try to stick to the subject in this thread george, you're the one getting personal again.



> Earlier you claimed 42 years in the business, what business may I ask?, one would have to assume its was not auto-electrics or battery related as you appear not to know the basics (ie mixing up Shedding and sulphation


And you say that I am winding people up by being insulting, how many years have you been in the auto electric business, other than having a minor qualification and a passing interest, or is this another area your business empire is trying to take over.



> Here is a quote from the Sterling brochure


Well there's not many people sitting with a broucher to hand so ready to quote from and you do get an enhanced discount from them dont you?.



> Not use poor charger, don't top up, replace the battery you have killed every 1 to 2 years.


I have used the same battery for about 3 years, is this a record.



> even the weakling ZIG units


Becareful what you say, they may take action against you, if they cared about your opinion that is. Is this another veiled threat that starts to show the true George?. Where you threaten people to ensure only your view is heard or contact the manufacturer to let them know someone has said something against their product.



> Not selling, reccomending something that I believe we are allowed to do.


Doesn't this apply to everyone on this forum?, or is this back to the 'olde world' of only Georges opinion counts. Please let others have say without pushing your 'opinion' as the only one that counts. You are not an authority on the subject, as you like to portray, and doubt if you ever will be.


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## 89813 (May 1, 2005)

Happy Christmas Stuart happy Christmas George


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Stuart

I asked a pertinant Question, a Claim of 42 years in the business carries a certain air of expert status, so I think it should be clearer what business.

How many years have I been dealing with Electrics (auto and otherwise) about 30 years, not on a business footing though.

I got a decent Discount from them when I purchased a largish amount of gear all in one go, something that anyone turning at the Sterling Place would probably get. I also did arrange a 20% discount for the SBMCC, which as been dropped to 10% since (nothing to do with me)

And yes because I do have businesses, I could buy from them at Trade prices, something which any Business could do. Again you are trying to imply some subtle deviousness.

I was asking *you* to be careful before you made an outright libel rather than these repeated "implied hidden Agenda's"

I have not at any point contacted manufacturers, to support my opinions or the facts, I do refer to literature and facts that are published.

No Stuart everyones opinion counts, I will counter things that are stated as fact that are clearly incorrect like WebWobins claim about Sulphation and Shedding. Or your claims of danger that do not fit with the facts and would actually make your Adverc system just as dangerous and just as unuseable around Radar etc, but in your race to score points you didnt think of that did you?

Saying a Zig system is a weak "charger" is not a libel, the truth never is.

George

BTW I am not going to get involved in protracted arguments here, so unless anything relevant comes up, I'll leave it at that.


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## 93135 (May 1, 2005)

Here,s more thoughts. 
1)If a battery is left in a badly sulphated condition for a period of time, then the charging system is wound up to push some amps through it, what happens to the paste? Does it like it or does some of it blow off?

2) You can get about 80% of the charge into a battery without causing a lot of gassing. The charge current is used to change the chemical composition of both the sulphuric acid in the electrolyte and also the paste on the plates.
If you want to fully charge the battery then you continue charging past the "Critical Gassing Voltage". Surely, this is where more of your amps are used to split water into hydrogen and oxygen than before? Hence the term. Hence more frequent topping up.
Or Is this wrong.

Come on George, whats the Sterling viewpoint on this one?

ww

There comming to take me away ha ha!


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi

ans to 1

No if on zig it just doesnt charge and gets thrown away needlessly, If charged with a proper charger (sterling or other good make) the extra voltage causes the sulphate to recombine into sulphuric acid and the battery charges, Plate doesnt get blown off by charging, plate is taken by rapid (HIGH ampage discharge) but even this is minimised by the newer technologies of polate manufacture.

ans to 2

the operative word here is a "without a lot of gassing" as I said before if its fully charged, slowly or fast the same amount of gas is produced and fully charging is better for your battery in terms of usage and its long term life expectancy.

George


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## 89122 (May 14, 2005)

1. Does it charge well in this case? 
2. Will it damage the battery?
*
This was the original question by Andysam, he was satisfied with the answer on the previous page to this one, so why continue with all this retoric and bad feeling amongst everyone, I think we all have read enough of this subject by now so why not put it to bed.
Eddie*


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## 93135 (May 1, 2005)

Eddie,
Don,t take it too seriously, it is a FORUM don,t forget where people can sound off, fire from the hip if you like. Sorry George but you rise to the bait too easily!

Which Mortimer? East end, West end, near Spratleys, Bushnells etc?
That unmade Avenue near the war memorial perhaps?

Or something totally different.

ww its not far away!!


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## 89122 (May 14, 2005)

ww, it is the road opposite the Victoria Arms next to Spratleys, Bushnells went years ago.
Eddie


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Webwobin

So you freely admit you were baiting, putting up inaccurate information just to cause trouble?

What a waste of your time and mine.

George


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## 93135 (May 1, 2005)

Hi Eddie,
I was the very first vice captain at Willink. Noel Jackson was top man and Clifford Metcalf second.
Can you work it out from that?

If Geoge had looked at my profile earlier perhaps.....

ww


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## 89122 (May 14, 2005)

Hi ww, not yet, I went to the other one it was called 3 mile Cross in those days. all the old coaches from Spratleys took us there, that was fun and games on the buses then.
Eddie


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## 93135 (May 1, 2005)

Do you remember Pecker Bushnell? He did a bit of gardening for my dad.
Spratleys looked after mums Vauxhall Viva.
And the toff who lived in the Mansion at the other end of the village on the corner just after the war memorial was part of the Mortimer Fire Brigade.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be!.
In those days we had the first house on the right in Hollybush lane from the Rising Sun at B.C.. "Apple Trees" Now there is a housing estate first in the field that was betwen us and Gibbs stores. Also the back half of the garden is now more houses compared to when I lived there, then the Recreation ground was the other side of our back fence.
People People, where do they all come from?

More interesting that batteries!


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## 89122 (May 14, 2005)

Yes I remember Pecker and the Toff we just called him Nick (Sir Nicholas Williamson Bart! ) I worked for at one time when he owned the garage near the Station, It was called Masons in those days untill he aquired it, they used to be Triumph car Agents,
Sadly Nick has Passed away a few years ago, he was a real character and a privellege to know. 
You would not recognise Hollybush Lane now speed ramps, traffic lights and two enormouse building sites where the farm was.
Eddie


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## 93135 (May 1, 2005)

The Farm was in my day also the Vets, Mrs Stuckey. What ever happened to daughter Katie I wonder?


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## 93135 (May 1, 2005)

Ah!
Are we well off topic now?
Oops


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