# A Frames & legality From DOT



## 99089 (May 7, 2006)

Note on A-Frames and Dollies, issued by the Department for Transport 
When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).

Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.

Regulations 15 and 16 set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. The most recent consolidated directive is 98/12/EC. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.

In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device.

Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.

Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.

The use of "dollies" is intended for the recovery of broken down vehicles, not for the transportation of a vehicle from "A" to "B". Under Regulation 83 of C&U a motor car is permitted to tow two trailers when one of them is a towing implement and the other is secured to and either rests on or is suspended from the implement. Therefore as a trailer if the maximum laden weight of the dolly exceeds 750 kg it must be fitted with operational brakes, additionally the brakes on the wheels of the second trailer (the towed car) must work and meet the specified requirements. Again this would be very difficult for the rear brakes of a motor car, on their own, to meet the 50% braking efficiency required for a trailer. The dolly would also be required by Regulation 22 of C&U to be fitted with suspension. Regulations 19 and 22 in C&U permit a broken down vehicle to be recovered without complying with these requirements. However, there is further legislation under the Road Traffic Act that introduces a limitation on the maximum speed that the combination can be driven; this is 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads.

We do not supply copies of legislation but I have included some information on various sources where they can be obtained. If you would like to purchase printed copies of Statutory Instruments these are available from TSO:

The Stationery Office Tel: 0870 600 5522
PO Box 29 Fax: 0870 600 5533
St Crispins e-mail: [email protected]
Duke Street online ordering: www.tso.co.uk/bookshop 
Norwich NR3 1GN

Alternatively you can consult "The Encyclopaedia of Road Traffic Law and Practice" published by Sweet and Maxwell. This publication is updated regularly and is available in most city reference libraries.

EU Directives can be found at:
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/search/search_lif.html

UN-ECE Regulations can be found at: http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs.html

From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.

Alan Mendelson
Primary Safety Branch
Department for Transport


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## 101411 (Oct 15, 2006)

Thanks for that really informative post.

Anyone got any ideas on the legalities of using an electronic braking system (Brake Buddy).  As far as i can make out there is no mention of this kind of braking system in the legislation but as it acts in the same way as the over-run type I cant see a problem. Its also much more powerful that any over-run system ive ever seen. 8O 

If they are deemed as been "illegal" anyone got any history of prosecutions etc??  

Thanks


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## 99089 (May 7, 2006)

*A Frames*

I was seaching for A Frame suppliers and came across the above article 
hope it helps.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi dazzer this from a long thread on MHT 

hi Paul my reading of that EEC directive confirms George's view.

Category O : Trailers (including semi-trailers): - Category O1 : Trailers with a maximum weight not exceeding 0 775 metric tons; 
- Category O2 : Trailers with a maximum weight exceeding 0 775 but not exceeding 3 75 metric tons; 

2.2.2.2. Every trailer of category O2 must be fitted with a service braking device either of the continuous or semi-continuous type or of the inertia (overrun) type. The latter type shall be authorised only for trailers other than semi-trailers. 

1.5. Braking devices in which accumulated energy (for instance, electric, pneumatic or hydraulic) is transmitted to the trailer by the drawing vehicle and is only controlled by the force at the coupling shall not be deemed to be inertia braking devices within the meaning of this Directive. 

However my reading of this is that if the driver controls the braking ie. not an overrun device, then electrical, mechanical and hydraulic are ok. So if the towing vehicle controlled the brakes on the "A" framed car, that would make this aspect legal. 

Brake buddys are neither overrun or continuous or semi-continuous types so would appear to be outside these regulations.

Olley


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

Dazzer said:


> Thanks for that really informative post.
> 
> Anyone got any ideas on the legalities of using an electronic braking system (Brake Buddy). As far as i can make out there is no mention of this kind of braking system in the legislation but as it acts in the same way as the over-run type I cant see a problem. Its also much more powerful that any over-run system ive ever seen. 8O
> 
> ...


 Paragraph two in the report:

Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved ...........(Brake Buddy fits that job description)

Dave


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

MandyandDave said:


> Paragraph two in the report:
> 
> Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved ...........(Brake Buddy fits that job description)
> 
> Dave


Good point Dave,

Para 2 only gives EXAMPLES of how to achieve the required braking. The only stipulation is that a braking system that is fitted must work.

Whilst I agree that the brake buddy fulfils that criteria I have to add that during a discussion with an engineer at the DVLA I was told that as far as they were concerned the Brake Buddy type of braking system was illegal.

Bryan


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Bryan, not wishing to open old wounds or trawl through the whole 'A frame' towing issues again :roll: What reasons did he give to deem the device as illegal? I see the brake buddy as a mechanical device acting upon the brake pedal, not got one myself, I use a braked A frame along with a cable attachment to the footbrake pedal of the car, but I have seen one in operation and think it's a great idea, not cheap though :roll: :wink: 

Dave


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Dave,

It may simply be that the Brake Buddy is regarded as not by mechanical means, eg electric:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-202670.html#202670

Dave


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

Good point Dave, however the device uses both electric and mechanical means to slow the car, electric signal from M/H and mechanical arm operating on footbrake pedal?


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

MandyandDave said:


> Hi Bryan, not wishing to open old wounds or trawl through the whole 'A frame' towing issues again :roll: What reasons did he give to deem the device as illegal? I see the brake buddy as a mechanical device acting upon the brake pedal, not got one myself, I use a braked A frame along with a cable attachment to the footbrake pedal of the car, but I have seen one in operation and think it's a great idea, not cheap though :roll: :wink:
> 
> Dave


Hi Dave,

The reason he gave was that the brakes on the 'trailer' being towed had to be operated as a direct action through the tow-ball. The brake buddy works independently of the tow-ball and this makes it illegal.

I don't have one but I really like the idea as well. I wonder if it is just a case of the regulations lagging behind the innovation?

Regards
Bryan


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## Bryan (Aug 9, 2006)

MandyandDave said:


> Good point Dave, however the device uses both electric and mechanical means to slow the car, electric signal from M/H and mechanical arm operating on footbrake pedal?


Dave,

I'm not sure that this is correct.

As I understand it the Brake Buddy is a completely independant brake system.

It connects to the 12v supply in the car (usually through a cigarette lighter socket) and uses an internal inertia switch to ascertain deceleration and then applies mechanical pressure dirctly to the towed vehicles brake pedal.

If I'm right then there is no electrical connection to the motorhome.
If I'm wrong please tell me what the connection from the motorhome is for.

Bryan


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Yes, I think all recent posts are hovering around the key issue, which is the reliability of the braking action. So, to draw a parallel, we may have engine throttle as fly-by-wire, but so far we don't have braking or steering as fly-by-wire (though I must say that the extent of servo assistance can be such that if the engine dies while trying to steer, it can be a struggle ...). Thus, without looking up the law, I suspect the trailer braking aspect is direct mechanical (exclusively) means. 

Dave


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## 2kias (Sep 18, 2006)

MandyandDave said:


> Good point Dave, however the device uses both electric and mechanical means to slow the car, electric signal from M/H and mechanical arm operating on footbrake pedal?


I have a brake buddy and the one I have does not use electrical means from the towing vehicle. It works on the basis of pressure built up in the compressor. When the MH stops the brake buddy recognises that the vehicle is slowing down and applies the brakes.
Having towed a caravan for years I can certainly say the the buddy is a far more reliable system for applying the brakes than the very poor overun system.
The Americans use thousands of them and they are legal there. If you want one at half the UK cost buy one from the US on ebay. Cost me £400 (£750 UK price from Towtal) and was delivered in 4 days.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

I'm certainly not casting aspersions at the reliability of the Brake Buddy, merely trying to explain the law. One aspect of good law is that it is clear and enforceable (yes, well ....) which is what "direct mechanical means" is. One can, of course, have cr.p mechanical design, and exceedingly reliable electrical design, but having a law which says the braking efficiency must be at least 99.9% reliable is even less helpful! 

Dave


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

The braking problem is easily solved using the item below,
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_85962_-1
I have not used the kit my self, I have gone for the cheaper option of buying a secondhand vacuum pump off a 70s American production car.

If after looking at the above web site any member of MF decides to import one (2 dollars to the £ !!!) I would also like one, PM me and perhaps we could set something up.

QUOTE
From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device.

This seems to be the more unsolvable problem, any bright ideas?

The only idea I can come up with is a device, solenoid perhaps that works from motorhome reversing light circuit locking overrun system, but how?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

I thought there were A-frames that did this. Can't recall which ones but one of the main UK suppliers.

Dave


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Here's a couple of useful address with regards vacuum pumps and their installation.

http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/vacuum.shtml

http://users.california.com/~eagle/figs/vacpump/vac.html

http://www.victorylibrary.com/mopar/pump-tech-c.htm


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

DABurleigh said:


> I thought there were A-frames that did this. Can't recall which ones but one of the main UK suppliers.
> 
> Dave


Unbraked A frames will not have a problem, but braked A frames working on the overrun system will have, unless some one has devised an auto-reverse system. Caravans work on an overrun system and have auto-reverse but the caravan brakes are designed different to a cars.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-202682.html#202682

The autoreverse coupling on A-frames seems to be the rule, not the exception.

Dave


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

DABurleigh said:


> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-202682.html#202682
> 
> The autoreverse coupling on A-frames seems to be the rule, not the exception.
> 
> Dave


Have looked at your link and extract follows:-As all cars have brakes fitted it must be obvious (to Police, VOSA, anyone) that a-frames used to tow cars as trailers must be of the braked variety, irrespective of the gross weight of the car. A braked a-frame pulls on the car's brake pedal via a cable operated by the over-run when the MH brakes (similar to a caravan). Some braked a-frames allow you to reverse without pulling the car brakes on, others do not.

All I can say is that Car a Tow does not have auto-reverse facility, in fact if you or anybody can put me in touch with an A frame maker that has this facility I would consider selling my present setup.


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

guzzijim said:


> DABurleigh said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-202682.html#202682
> ...


My set up from Towtal allows auto-reverse. There appears to be a "double" piston ie a sleeve within a sleeve and only the outer sleeve hits the brake cable cam on forward motion, this must "lock" on reverse motion and the inner sleeve only then moves to compress the shock absorber/piston but misses the brake cable cam.

Clever stuff and another feature towards fully implementing the required braking directives and being totally legal.

Noel.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Thanks Noel, may well change to Towtal A frame when I change cars (soon).

So what’s the problem conforming to reg’s if you fit a vacuum pump ?
Although I do not have auto-reverse with my Car a Tow set-up the vacuum pump works fine, in fact it’s like throwing out an anchor out of the motorhome rear window ! Jim


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

The particular post I referenced includes the sentence (not one of mine):

"The coupling and auto-reverse is standard on most a-frames and replicates a caravan/trailer setup."

Dave


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Dave, the following statement I believe is incorrect, but I do stand to be corrected 

"The coupling and auto-reverse is standard on most a-frames and replicates a caravan/trailer setup." 

It is not the overrun coupling on trailers and caravans that facilitates the auto-reversing capability but the design of the drum brakes themselves.
Before the advent of auto-reverse brakes it was necessary to manually lock the overrun facility before commencing reversing.

Noel in an earlier post stated that his Towtal set-up incorporated auto-reverse, I have emailed Towtal asking them to confirm.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Having not received a reply from Towtal and not wishing tread to go dead I have done a bit of research on internet for an auto-reverse coupling.
Noel says his Towtal set-up auto reverses; I have searched for the coupling Towtal are using to no avail.
I have found a Hydraulic Couplings for Auto-Reverse Brakes, but have not found a coupling that facilitates auto-reverse without the appropriate brakes.
Noel if you read this I would be grateful if you would look on your A frame coupling to see if there is a manufacturers name.
It would be worth my while changing the coupling on my Car a Tow A frame to allow auto-reversing and to comply with regs., the braking system as I have said earlier complies.

http://www.western-towing.co.uk/acatalog/Knott_Brake_Parts_Diagram.html

http://www.towsure.com/category/7220-Hydraulic_Couplings_for_Auto-Reverse_Brakes


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## Chascass (May 10, 2007)

Hi. I am new to the forum and motorhomeing (9 months) So first of all can I say hello to everyone, and say what a mine of info. this site is.

I recently had a A frame and eclectrics fitted to a smart car (under 750 kg) and was informed by the installers, because the car was under 750 kg all was legal ( now I find this is not 100% true)

My question is, has any one ever been prosecuted for towing a car under these circumstances? our is a blind eye/police not aware of the technicality's the case.

Chas


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

Chascass said:


> Hi. I am new to the forum and motorhomeing (9 months) So first of all can I say hello to everyone, and say what a mine of info. this site is.
> 
> I recently had a A frame and eclectics fitted to a smart car (under 750 kg) and was informed by the installers, because the car was under 750 kg all was legal ( now I find this is not 100% true)
> 
> ...


Assume you have an illegal (for towing CARS as trailers) UN-Braked a-frame?

1. The Smart is not under 750Kg GROSS weight (the relevant figure).

2. In any event weight of car is irrelevant, if brakes are fitted (what car does not have brakes?) they must be operable!!!

3. There have been, apparently, cases where UK police have made unbraked a-framers towing cars, disconnect and sent them on their way separately. Know of no prosecutions but they must be on the horizon as police are well aware of UK trailer regulations.

Noel.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi All

This must be one of the most discussed and disputed topics on MHFs.. I have followed umpteen threads and they always end in disagreement, some in acrimony.

I have thought about towing with an A frame and at one point actually had a car, a 2CV, ready to go.. but then I decided against, Jan doesn't drive and if I were asked to unhitch I would be in trouble, especially if we were in Spain, but nothing so far has convinced me that the law has changed.

It's a great pity, in the US they have been towing with A frames for years where it's perfectly legal and more importantly SAFE ..

This US site has A frames and four approved methods for braking..

Blue Ox Braking systems


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

guzzijim said:


> Having not received a reply from Towtal and not wishing tread to go dead I have done a bit of research on internet for an auto-reverse coupling.
> Noel says his Towtal set-up auto reverses; I have searched for the coupling Towtal are using to no avail.
> I have found a Hydraulic Couplings for Auto-Reverse Brakes, but have not found a coupling that facilitates auto-reverse without the appropriate brakes.
> Noel if you read this I would be grateful if you would look on your A frame coupling to see if there is a manufacturers name.
> ...


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## takeaflight (May 9, 2005)

Scotland Jim is so right.

Why don't all MHF members of C &CC and the CC send a joint email for them to bring some pressure to bear, to bring closure to this topic one way or another. 

Surely we must get something from one of the clubs apart from a caravan orientated mag.

There are other forums out there having the same posts.


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

but nothing so far has convinced me that the law has changed.

Hi Jim,

The law in UK at least is perfectly clear and does not need to change! As long as _your complete set up _exactly matches and complies with trailer regulations, then you are legal in UK. Some combinations are illegal, others are as legal as any other trailer/caravan combination.

Regards,

Noel.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Noel said:


> The law in UK at least is perfectly clear and does not need to change! As long as _your complete set up _exactly matches and complies with trailer regulations, then you are legal in UK.


Hi Noel

For me this is the problem, I'm still not convinced that there is a 100% legal set up .. but just for arguments sake, let's say there is and I adopt it, what happens when Mr Pedantic plod in Spain or Germany tell's me to unhitch ? I'd be up the proverbial creek with no paddle .. a small chance some will argue but not one I am prepared to risk...

I will continue to listen and learn from those who do use them.. thanks for your comments.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Jim,

A-frames are of academic interest to me, certainly for the next few years, therefore I would happily defer to your more motivated research! But a brief summary of the real sticking points as I understood them is here:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-202670.html#202670

and Noel's A-frame meets them. What is there in UK trailer law that his car on HIS A-frame is not meeting?

Noel, can you say a bit more about the auto-reverse & braking mechanics of Towtal's unit?

Dave
Edit - our posts crossed in the ether


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Dave 

thanks for your link and comments

When I was thinking of towing the 2CV I realised that the set up I was considering was far from legal, it had no braking and no way of reversing.. .. so I abandoned the idea. :?


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

ScotJimland said:


> Noel said:
> 
> 
> > The law in UK at least is perfectly clear and does not need to change! As long as _your complete set up _exactly matches and complies with trailer regulations, then you are legal in UK.
> ...


As always, the devil is in the detail and everyone's personal circumstances but with a wifey driver I towed all over France, Belgium, Holland and Germany with absolutely no problems except the excessive interest and enthusiasim of loads of jealous continental motorhomers and caravanners!

Noel.


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

DABurleigh said:


> Jim,
> 
> A-frames are of academic interest to me, certainly for the next few years, therefore I would happily defer to your more motivated research! But a brief summary of the real sticking points as I understood them is here:
> http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-202670.html#202670
> ...


Not sure what I can add except to say that Towtal's a-frame incorporates this hydraulic overun http://www.towsure.com/category/7220-Hydraulic_Couplings_for_Auto-Reverse_Brakes with double pistons of which only one operates the brake cable cam on the forward overun only.

Noel.


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

Noel, the link you give advertises 'Hydraulic Couplings for Auto-Reverse Brakes' - my reading of this is that they are for trailers already equipped with an Auto reverse system built into the brakes.

I wish someone from the manufacturers would come along and give a definitive answer to this one.


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

aultymer said:


> Noel, the link you give advertises 'Hydraulic Couplings for Auto-Reverse Brakes' - my reading of this is that they are for trailers already equipped with an Auto reverse system built into the brakes.
> 
> I wish someone from the manufacturers would come along and give a definitive answer to this one.


A CAR'S brakes ARE built-in "auto-reverse" in as much as the brake cable on the a-frame just pulls on the car's brake pedal on forward motion, on reversing the car's brakes are default "off" ie brake pedal/brakes not pushed/operating!

Noel.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Aultymer, I was about to say the same as you, the Hydraulic (750 - 1250kg) & (1250-2000kg.) refers to the gross weight of trailer they are suitable for. Use the wrong one and the over-run will either come on prematurely or to late.
The hydraulic reference I think refers to the hand brake mechanism, when operated manually or by a breakaway cable, the brake comes on with force hydraulically.
Car a Tow use this coupling, but it is not auto reverse.
I did reply to a PM from Noel earlier, I asked him how his over-run mechanism knew, when being compressed, if it was the inertia of the towed car (travelling forwards) or motorhome pushing backwards.
According to Noel his auto-reversing coupling can differentiate! How?


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

Noel, your last comment just does not make sense - whether the car is pushing the van (overun) or the van is reversing the coupling is in compression. How does it know the difference? Please someone explain how it works - I would love to use it.


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

aultymer said:


> Noel, your last comment just does not make sense - whether the car is pushing the van (overun) or the van is reversing the coupling is in compression. How does it know the difference? Please someone explain how it works - I would love to use it.


As far as I can see there are double (one within the other) pistons, with a pawl lock, locking them togeher, only on the forward overun. On reverse this releases to allow the (inner) piston NOT bearing on the cable cam to move but the outer remains static and does not move the cam on the end of the brake cable. I am no expert but it does work whether it makes sense or not and that is what I am commenting on and can confirm!

Noel.


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## aultymer (Jun 20, 2006)

Thanks Noel, that makes more sense. It looks like the device is 'sensing' which direction the initial compression is coming from and using this to operate brakes or not.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

SORRY NOEL YOU HAVE GOT THE WRONG END OF THE STICK

Below a short but definitive answer to my question to Towtal, does your braked A frame have auto-reverse.

Hi

No sorry

Regards Paula

________________________________________________

TOWTal Ltd

332 King Street

Fenton

Stoke On Trent

ST4 3DA

Tel: 01782 333422

Fax: 01782 343662

e-mail: [email protected]

web: www.towtal.co.uk

This message is strictly private and contains confidential information intended only for the use of the person named above. If you have received this e-mail in error and are not the intended recipient you must not disclose, copy or distribute it to anyone else. Please immediately advise the sender and delete this email and all attachments.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Thought I ought to post my original question to Towtal.

Subject: A Frame
To:	[email protected]
Sir, does your braked A frame set-up have an auto-reverse facility?

Regards Jim Butcher


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

guzzijim said:


> SORRY NOEL YOU HAVE GOT THE WRONG END OF THE STICK
> 
> Below a short but definitive answer to my question to Towtal, does your braked A frame have auto-reverse.
> 
> ...




The "definitive answer" appears to be missing from your post! All I know IS that I can reverse (without getting out of the cab or touching the a-frame) for as far as I need and the car's brakes do not apply, good enough for me and others who have also confirmed this fact on this forum.

Noel.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Noel look at the one posted at 12.11pm. not the one after.

Jim


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

guzzijim said:


> Noel look at the one posted at 12.11pm. not the one after.
> 
> Jim


I was looking at that one, now I see the shortness! From my dealings with their secretary in the past I would not rely on her grasp of anything smacking of engineering or a-frame/trailer regs (witness their incorrect website assertion that unbraked a-frames are ok to tow cars)! They probably buy in the a-frames with the Towsure auto-reverse http://www.towsure.com/category/7220-Hydraulic_Couplings_for_Auto-Reverse_Brakes incorporated and the admin don't have a clue of the added benefit, OR they are now fitting a different cheaper a-frame, I bought mine nearly 2 years ago.

Noel.


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

Noel said:


> guzzijim said:
> 
> 
> > Noel look at the one posted at 12.11pm. not the one after.
> ...


Hi

No sorry

Regards Paula

________________________________________________

TOWTa l Ltd

332 King Street

Fenton

Stoke On Trent


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## guzzijim (May 1, 2005)

[/quote]

From my dealings with their secretary in the past I would not rely on her grasp of anything smacking of engineering or a-frame/trailer regs (witness their incorrect website assertion that unbraked a-frames are ok to tow cars)! They probably buy in the a-frames with the Towsure auto-reverse http://www.towsure.com/category/7220-Hydraulic_Couplings_for_Auto-Reverse_Brakes incorporated and the admin don't have a clue of the added benefit, OR they are now fitting a different cheaper a-frame, I bought mine nearly 2 years ago.

Noel.[/quote]

I have spoken at length to William Bark of Towtal reference auto-reversing AFrames,
He has confirmed that the only A-Frame that they make that is truly auto-reversing is the unbraked A frame used in conjunction with a Brake Buddy.
The braked A-frame is reversible to a certain extent but not fully auto-reversing, i.e. not meeting the standards as set out in the DOT. Regs.
Towtal's and Car a Tow's braked A frames will allow you to reverse a short distance if the following criteria are meet.

1.	If your outfit has comes to a halt with the overrun coupling compressed the cars brakes will still be applied, should you try and reverse under this situation the cars brakes will be applied even more. The only alternative is to drive forward thereby uncompressing the coupling and releasing the cars brakes, this is fine if you have room to drive forward and are on level ground, but this will not be sufficient if you are facing down-hill as the coupling will compress immediately you start backing up. One could of course manually remove the quick release brake cable pin thereby disconnecting the car brakes, but this is not auto-reverse.
So to sum up, yes you can reverse a braked A frame to a limited extent under the right conditions, but it does not conform to DOT regs.
Never the less it will not stop me using my Car a Tow braked A frame at home or abroad, I do however feel that I am conforming a little more with the law by using an electric vacuum pump to ensure my cars brakes are working safely and efficiently.
So carry on A framing but don't be under the illusion that you have an auto-reversing A-frame.


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## Noel (May 1, 2005)

So carry on A framing but don't be under the illusion that you have an auto-reversing A-frame.[/quote]

OK I will not be under an illusion! However, I have never been in a situation where the car's brakes have locked on reversing and according to this thread:- http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=149740#149740 there is no need to have "auto-reverse brakes" as such and the system/s can meet the requirements under the most likely conditions to be met.

Relevant para repeated here:-

A further point raised, is the ability of the motorhome/car combination to be reversed without operating a manual mechanism. Contrary to common belief, the regulations do not state that braked trailers must be fitted with "auto reverse brakes".

The D f T remind us 
"From 1St October 1988 the inertia braking system (overun) is required to allow the trailer to be reversed with the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically" 
Although we understand the meaning, it does not actually state `auto reverse brakes, as commonly fitted to modern trailers and caravans, but requires a system to enable a trailer to be reversed without the need to manually operate a mechanism.

There are specific regulations concerning this requirement and the Car-A-Tow frame system can meet the requirements as stated in UN-ECE Regulation No. 13, Annexe 12, Page 137, Paragraph 3:4 and 3:5, providing the system is fitted and operated correctly and is in good condition.

Noel.


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