# What is an inverter?



## 91123 (May 1, 2005)

Hi,

Been looking around for all the gadgets and gizmos you can buy for a motorhome and keep coming across these things called inverters. I understand they somehow enable you to use normal appliances (not 12v) in your motorhome - but how it works etc or if it is essential I haven't got a clue. Also, we were thinking of buying a generator, are they the same things as an inverter or are they completely different things? If you have a generator, do you still need an inverter or not? As you can see - I aint got a clue - so any advice would be helpful.

Thanks

Sonesta


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Sonesta,

Both a generator and an inverter allow you to run mains (240Volt, alternating current) devices when you are away from a mains-cable hookup.

A generator is a mechanical engine that runs on fuel, whether petrol, diesel or LPG and generates 240V mains.

An inverter is an electronic device that requires a 12volt, direct current input from your batteries and converts it to 240V ac mains.

So if you need to charge up your batteries without running your motorhome's engine or plugging in a mains hookup, a generator will do this while an inverter won't.

Small inverters, say with only 150 or 300 watts output, are cheap but convenient for charging laptops, PDAs, mobile phones, digital cameras, etc., which often have dedicated mains chargers, and also for powering mains-only TVs.

Generators are big, heavy and pricey, and can be used for charging your leisure batteries and powering large consumption appliances, such as aircon.

But the most significant difference between generators and inverters is NOISE. If ANY other camper can hear the generator, evil thoughts will be transmitted in your direction 

Only buy a genny as a last resort.

Dave


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## 89425 (May 23, 2005)

Dave has given an excellent roundup of invertors and generators, however he forgot to mention that not all invertors give the same quality of mains output as the electric in your house or that of generators in that invertors don't always give a nice rounded sine wave output, more often, especially the cheaper ones the sine wave tends to be rather square or stepped. Rather than baffle you with all the technicalities it best you make the inverter supplier aware of what you wish their inverter to supply. By putting the onus on them they will tell you if their inverter or possibly another one would be more suitable for your needs.

Electric tooth brushes are usually the items that suffer from cheap invertors, so do check.

____________________________________________________
*Steve 
aka A very wild....wild camper*
.
 Click here for my van website!
.









_I do like a bit of feed back to my posts please_
____________________________________________________


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## 90473 (May 1, 2005)

Small point really but quite annoying at times on the forum (please don't take it to heart anyone as it's only a personal opinion).

The original poster indicated that they were completely at a loss and didn't have a clue as to the technicalities.

I followed Dave's post which was a perfect summary of the situation.

Then Steve you added a rather technical aspect regarding sine waves which like the average man in the street, I haven't got a clue about. It is rather unfair to say that someone 'forgot' to do something when it was never their intention to provide detailed information on technical matters.

I would like to see the thread continue along the lines it started out on, ie simplified explanations or advice to simple queries. There is a place for technical explanations if a specific technical matter is being discussed. Quite often we see the experts locking horns on such matters and it is interesting and amusing to say the least, but occasionally it's just nice to get a straightforward answer without having to disclose our own shortcomings or levels of part time/full time expertise.

Rant over :wink:


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## 88905 (May 10, 2005)

Keng,
how right you are.
I have been using invertors for the last 10/11 years on a boat and now in an MH and have never taken any concern over the fact that they are "square wave" machines. I buy for the cheapest and have never had an item fail because of that, and I have used computors, crt TVs, tooth brushes . battery chargers and...need I go 
From a technical point of view the only true sinusoidal wave invertor is probably a rotary one but only if you have lots of money and some big batteries.
Asking the retailer to suggest is just hiding behind modern law in the hope that you can sue.
And its's worth pointing out that the Space Shuttle is made from components which were from the lowest bidder in most cases...for what it's worth.
If the cheapos sold by Halfords, Maplin and others of that ilk were no good then the newspapers would be full of the cases being reported!!!!
nobby


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## Dopeyngrumpy (May 13, 2005)

I've used the first I came across at a reasonable price to power and charge laptop and mobile phone for some time. 

It has worked like a charm. What I would encourage is to get one from somewhere reputable and be realistic about what you want it for - a friend was encouraged to purchase something well beyond what he needed at a show (rated several times the load for either of these types of applications) it cost him a fortune comparatively and seemed to draw more current for the same load as mine. 

Regards

David


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Yes, always buy the smallest power inverter you need. Don't be tempted to future-proof your requirements by buying larger because an inverter's stand-by (no-load) current is roughly proportional to its maximum output, so you will be draining your battery more whenever it is connected and switched on.

If you can get by with 150W, they tend not to have a fan, too, so are quieter.

In principle, the cheaper square or modified wave inverters can have difficulty with inductive loads, for example motor windings and some lighting. In practice, all I have noticed is a large mains desk fan hums when running off the inverter, but not off mains direct. I can live with that to get some air movement when it's stifling even with the windows open 

You do need to watch out for electric toothbrush chargers, though. These tend to charge via inductive loops (no metal contacts....) and square and modified sine-wave inverters can break the charging circuit.

Dave


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## 89425 (May 23, 2005)

Dear Keng and Nobby,

You may not have noticed that I pointed out all the positive points of the previous posts, as I always try to do. I also then covered another aspect of inverters that many people are not aware of, but finished off with the proviso of advising the purchaser to check with the retailer that their intended purchase was suitable for their needs.

You obviously feel I should not have mentioned the quality of the output of inverters, I ask, how would you feel if you had bought an inverter and it messed up your equipment because you were not aware of different outputs?

Also, the reason I said the previous poster had 'forgot to mention' was not to insult his knowledge of the subject, thus being positive again.

Whilst you feel my post is too technical, I tried to limit the technicalities so that anyone reading the post would not fell overwhelmed. If you take the time to read previous posts on this forum you will note that other people wished that they had been armed with the knowledge I have given in the post above as they had bought inverters which turned out to be an expensive purchase as it had destroyed various items that they had tried to use with their 'cheap' purchase.

Rather than being negative, why not try and be positive for a change, more people will love you for it. Just in case your wondering, I am insulted by your unwelcome comments

____________________________________________________
*Steve 
aka A very wild....wild camper*
.
 Click here for my van website!
.









_I do like a bit of feed back to my posts please_
____________________________________________________


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## 90473 (May 1, 2005)

Steve,

Get real, we're not here to be loved or unloved and no-one posts 'comments' to insult other members. 

A forum is a place for an exchange of views and information and surely everyone has a say on how we'd like to see that information portrayed.

I for one have benefitted greatly from the information shared by others on this and many more forums, on a great variety of subjects.

End of story.


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Steve, Don't take it too heart, you have a wealth of invaluble knowledge.

Some like to hear the simple stuff, some like it technical, some are technophobes. I understand what you mean about asking at retailers etc. I know a place or two where you will get good honest advice and some places where you will get sold the most expensive, inappropriate piece of junk!

Some of the other posters may have been bitten by this horrible menace.

So don't be offended. Your website is intresting and you moderate well. You are bound to get a bit of 'constructive critasism' sometimes. you can't please all the people all the time.

Keep up the good work,  

Richard

ps feel free to complain about my spelling :roll: I'm lost without my spell checker........... :!:


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## 91123 (May 1, 2005)

Thank you everyone for all your help, tips and advice. Yes I am a novice but I truly did not find any of the replies too difficult to understand and as for the waves and thingy majigs - my husband, when he read the replies was able to understand fully what was being said - so as he is the technical wizard in our house - I can always get him to decipher the information.

Basically - I will be wanting to run a tv, a digibox, a hairdrier, sometimes heated curling tongs, an iron, mobile phone charger, camcorder charger and now and again a 700W microwave. I will not want to have all these appliances on at one time - I am just mentioning the electrical appliances I will have in the vehicle - so what size invertor would you recommend? Someone mentioned that sometimes inverters can damage your appliances, why or how is this and am I better going for 12v appliances?
Sorry to ask so many questions.

Once again a great big thank you to everyone who has posted.

Sonesta


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## Jeffus (May 1, 2005)

Sonesta_uk said:


> . . . so what size invertor would you recommend?


Yes I would like to know roughly what output for running the odd appliance . . . and how is the inverter hooked up? directly to the batteries or what? :? Jeffus. 8)


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## 88905 (May 10, 2005)

Sonesta
Thisa site may be of use to you...usual caveat applies...don't know them from Adam

http://www.cybermarket.co.uk/ishop/923/shopscr98.html

Your are geting into deep waters with some of your items. Most are ok but the curling tongs, iron and especially the microwave are dodgy areas. What wattages are you talking about...if they are less than about 300 watts then that size inverter would be ok but you do need to look at the maths of the problem.
I'll try and keep it simple but let's look at thaat micro.

700 watts is about 59 amps take off whilst running but could be up to 50% or more extra at start up.

Leaving out the efficiency of the inverter which could be up to 98% (it reputedly was on a Canadian version I had on my boat) you then need to look at your leisure batteries.
Let's say you have 2 at 70 amp/hour each = 140. This is calculated on the 10 hour rate...ie how much could be supplied in 10 hours...ie again 14 amps for 10 hours. If you take more than 14 amps the time period does not drop linearly but it gets progressively and considerably worse!!!
pure maths says that at 60 amps (near enough to 59 for this example) you could manage 2hr 20 mins but that you will not get....more like 1hr 30 (I can't be precise here as all batteries will be different and I don't have anyprecise figures to hand).
You must also remember that the inverter has built in undervoltage protection and may/ should shut down ling before the batteries reach their dead point. On that basis you may only get 1 hours use but on top of everything you have to consider your other power needs!!!! which must all come from the same source.
After all that just consider next morning after start up...you have to replace all the power you have used and even though you may have a 50amp alternator it would still take nearly 3 hours driving to replace your losses and I must admit I have never seen an on-board ammeter read 50 amps for such a long period and the real truth of the matter might be that you would never replace the losses in the normal use of a MH rxcept by going into a site and using mains and a good external battery charger.
Please don't think I am trying to put you off the problem, merely pointing out the pitfalls and suggesting that you might need to re-addrss your requiremants..
The same maths can be used for any item but please don't try to be too precise as, except for ohm's law/ Kichoffs law etc, electricity is not that precise.
You could solve your problem by getting a 1kW generator but only at the risk of making yourself ver unpopular in some locations, especially campsites!!

regards nobby


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## 88905 (May 10, 2005)

Jeffus,
My previous post should give you some idea of how to look at your size requirements but if not then do come back.
As for a general view on connections , well you can get smallish ones, ie up to maybe 300 watts which plug direct into the cigar lighter but my personal preference is to mount them in a decent bit of space with a switch and a good fuse and connect direct to the battery as I often feel that the cigar lighter can be a bit of a fire hazard if used over a long period at high currents.
To summarise though, If you want to run under 150 watss then get that size and if between 150 and 300 then get a 300 watt version, and anything over you must start doing some calculating.
nobby


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## Jeffus (May 1, 2005)

*Thanks*

Thanks nobby, I haven't read your previous post as I write this as our posts must have crossed in mid internet ether. I will read it soon though and many thanks again for your valued help.  Regards, Jeffus. 8)

EDIT, yes just finished reading you very detailed and precise post (that crossed in the ether) nobby, re what size of inverter would be good. The information is just what I was wanting. Many thanks buddy. Jeffus. 8)


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## 90473 (May 1, 2005)

Nobby,

I spent a fair amount of time last night studying the various articles relating to inverters and your post has certainly made it all the more clearer from a practical point of view.

Incidentally, I can relate to your view on using 'lighter' sockets as last weekend I was part of a support crew on a 24hr cycle challenge and we had an amber, flashing beacon plugged in during the night. At one point it stopped working and when I inspected the plug it was bent into a banana shape through overheating.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

*Invertors and generators*

Mains Microwave through invertor

Modern 240v Microwaves are getting more efficient (most are anyway) so for 700w cooking power they require about 50% more input ampage so a 700w microwave would need 1050w of power in.

1050w thru an invertor would cost about 10% extra to allow for invertor efficiency so thats 1155w so the ampage required would be in the order of 96 amps. Microwaves tend not to run at 100% efficiency on quasi invertors so allowing for this we get 630 cooking watts costing 96 A

So an Invertor fed mains microwave gives roughly 6.56 watts per Amp

Direct 12v microwave

12v microwaves have not advanced as much efficiency wise, a 450 watt Samsung uses 750w, 750w at 12v = 62.5 Amps

So a 12v Microwave gives 7.2 watts per Amp

Overall a 12v microwave is only slightly more efficient.

Other Factors

Price a 240v Microwave can be had for as little as £25, with a brand name and good guarantee for under £40. A 12v version costs up to 10 times more than the average entry level mains version

Size Mains microwaves tend to be 25% bigger capacity

Speed mains will cook quicker (having 630w, against the 450w of the 12v version)

Battery bank size , to maximise the life of your battery bank no current draw should exceed 10% of the amp hour rating of the battery bank, so for a 12v the battery bank "officially" should be greater than 650 ah, for the mains version 1,000 ah is the "reccomended" size.

Another effect of this is that taking say 5 amps per 100 ah battery bank is the 20 Hour rate which allows 5 amps to be withdrawn for 20 hours before flattening battery completely at 10A draw the battery will not last 10 hours as expected. This is just to show that the amp hour draw will cost you more amp hours than the consumption suggests, this would apply to either microwave.

In practice most take the performance "hit" in terms of longivety and actual ah usage.

In the end its all down to what is important to you, cost £, performance (cooking), efficiency (watts per amp used), actual amps used, size of cooking area and ease of replacement out in the cuds (will always be easier to replace a mains microwave)

Ah Comparison figures for a 5 minute warm (not allowing for battery bank size)

12v 5 mins @ 62.5 amps = 5.21 Ah

240v 3.57 mins @ 96.25 amps = 5.73 Ah (the mains will cook quicker 630w against 450w)


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

8O .........W 8O W.........Impressive stuff.

Intresting and it proves one thing, I'll stick to the BBQ. Takes longer but more fun.

Thanks for the sums though.


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## llawnroc (May 24, 2005)

thanks for all the tips and advice on here!! so if i wanted to run a laptop or a tv/video for a couple of hours i could get an invertor (300 watts)and plug it into the cigar lighter and run them of that!!


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Impressively detailed reply George!

We are currently drawing upto 160A from our 200Ah flooded lead-acid battery bank. It will be interesting to see how long it lasts being treated like that!

Should it fail, we've got our eyes on some nice AGM batteries that (according to the manufaturers) can be drained at at lest 100% of their capacity! Time will tell 

Best regards

Ben


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Llawmroc,

For the Laptop and TV a 150w Sterling will do it, I have heard of some cheap makes causing probs ie lines on TV's (These have mainly been via Maplins)

Sterling Webpage

Hi Benandlizzie,

Part of my research when deciding on power and microwave etc for my motorhome.

Although theory says 10% of bank size 200 ah will do it and still give a fair battery life as long as the charger is a good 3-4 stage one.

AGM's have a few good points, but most of these only relate to the abuse they can take

1. even with a bad charging system ie Split charger, Zig or plug in systems types these batteries will charge to 90+ % of fully charged.
2. They can be over discharged (80 or 90%) and come back, they wont take this for too long though
3. They do not suffer from sulphation as badly as a lead acid (there again a lead acid does not suffer from sulphation if charged properly

To my mind a standard lead acid is far better * as long as its charged properly*

A lead acid costs only a third of the cost of a AGM, use the saving to buy a decent charging system. Then all the agm's superiority is defeated at a stroke.

George


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

I agree that for the price, inexpensive lead acids are hard to beat. We check our electrolyte level every month, and have never found it to be low so the argument that they're high maintenance doesn't really wash either.

It'll be interesting to see how long our bog-standard leisure battery lasts with the current 'abuse' it's suffering on the inverter side. The saving grace is that the charger is excellent (adaptive multi-stage and even temperature corrected)

Charging properly has alread started to show its merits. Its also very interesting to compare the 'proper' battery monitor (BMV-501) to the voltage readout. It shows how much guesswork used to be involved!

Best regards

Ben


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## Yorky (May 10, 2005)

Going back to the comments on page one, if you can't talk technical in the technical section then whats the point of having a technical section?. 
Regards. Eddie


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

George, Nobby,
I have followed this thread with great interest, I too get bogged down by the world of inverters, sine this and soft start that! :? :? 
However you guys may know which piece of kit (inverter wise) I need to buy in relation to the set up I have.

2x solar panels (dont have spec to hand) but they are 3ft long x 2ft wide.
4 x leisure batteries @ 85AH each.
The solar panel function is just simple battery charging, (seems overkill really when on hook-up) i.e 12V running is no effort without mains to recharge leisure batts,
Sooooo with 4 batteries and two hefty solar panels, what inv. could I use to supply the van with 240V in shall we say average usage?
:?: :?: :?: :?: Regards M&D


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Mandy & Dave,

You missed out the most important part - what do you want to RUN on mains?

Depending on that answer, a "solution" could cost £30 or over £1000.

Dave


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

*System Design*

Hi DA , Mandy and Dave

A few questions need answers first.

1. how long do you wish to wild camp for?
2. what 240v Item (s?) do you wish to power and for how long each day?
3. what wattage are the solar panels?

The solar panels by size will be around 30 watts each, being generous (I used Australian sun charts) this will give maybe 225 watts per day

This gives around 18 amps charging per day.

The battery bank if fully charged gives 170ah so if you wild camped for one day you would have 2250 w to play with per day

Two days wild camping Gives 1230 w per day

Three days Gives 890 w per day

Bear in mind even 890 w could run many models of 240v TV for around 24 hours straight.

Running a Microwave for 10 mins per day would be possible, but this would use all the extra charge given by the panels.

More info will get a better picture/answer

George


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

For Christ sake Mandy and Dave - answer the question.  Wicked stuff George but way above my head but I am sure not above others on here.
We have an 85amp lead acid and I've yet to see it not fully charged. But this will change as I will buy an inverter to use my 75Euro multiscan TV - a 14 inch mains Sanyo. Grateful for a clue as to what size inverter I need to buy for running this only and how long would it last for if left on until the battery ran out.

By numbers answer if you have the time.


Many thanks.


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

O.K. more info, mine are the 65 models laid side by side as shown here
http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-solarex.html

I don't want to run a microwave oven 
I do not forsee us wildcamping for more than a long w/e.
Electrical items used would be a portable colour tv, a cd/radio player, mobile phone chargers, a small electric kettle, not all at once and certainly not for long periods during the day, tv maybe on longest 2-3 hrs on an evening.

P.S The batteries are 100 AH x4 and the solar panels have been checked by Mand,.(well it's too bloody cold for me out there on that roof!) :lol:


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Mandy and Dave

Without the small electric Kettle, a good 150w Quasi Sine wave invertor (Sterling) would cope with all the rest these cost £35

With Kettle you need a 1800 W Quasi Sine wave invertor (£365) with a corded Kettle, If however you want to use a Cordless Kettle You will need a Pure sine wave Invertor at 1500 w this costs £799 List The reason a pure is needed in this case is that cordless kettles use induction to transfer power from base to Kettle.

I checked Kettle wattages small ones seem to be average 1500w 

£330 Jump just to boil a Kettle, or a £764 Jump if you want cordless!

BTW those are list prices, I deal with Sterling a lot and could probably get you a discount.

Gas is probably the best for boiling water, I read somewhere that there is more power in a 9KG gas bottle than 1 Tonne of batteries (about 30 X 110 ah batteries!!) 

Power wise 130w worth of panels will generate 450w a day or 38 Amps and with 4 X100 ah batteries a weekend away even a long one will be NP at all.


If you decide on an electric Kettle it will use about 8 ah per boil X number of boils per day. 

George


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

George that's fantastic, and thankyou very much for the explanation on inverters, and for taking the time out to configure what I need.

We keep a small gas kettle on board for service stn. stops and a quick brew whilst en route to wherever our destination is.

The only thing left to consider is ..how do I fit it, where do I wire it, and what to connect it to?

I know that there is a sr120w shunt regulator, fitted to prevent overcharging of the batteries from the solar array, avoiding the loss of electrolyte through gassing. It also helps to protect other electronic equipment from damage due to high battery voltage.
On reaching maximum voltage the regulator diverts excess power from the solar panels and dissipates it in the form of heat.
Therefore the solar array remains "on-load" at all times. 

What effect if any would the fitting of an inverter have on this system? 

Regards M&D


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi again

Fitting, are you going for the bigger invertors or the baby invertor?, the answer really depends on which one.

An Invertor uses a quiescent current the whole time it is switched on with Sterling this amounts to .7 amp or less on Quasi sine (tested both of my Sterling invertors and it holds true for either) True sine uses a bit more.

Effect on the Solar system ? it will obviously use some of the power generated but I cannot think of any adverse effect that adding an invertor would have.

My choice would be the 1800w (not for kettle as such) but because this gives more choice of appliances that could be used. If however entertainment systems are definately the limit on what you want to power then a 150w or 300w would be more economical.

BTW buy a decent brand I reccomend Sterling because I know they are good and surprisingly good value for money for marine gear and because of the problems I have seen caused by using "Cheaper" stuff.

George


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

George I will go along with your reccomendations, and purchase a Sterling unit. Being a boat owner I know how harsh a marine environment can be on electrical equipment!
And if these units are used by the Marine industry, then I'm happy too  
Regarding the size, we think that a larger unit will give us a little more flexibility as far as usage is concerned, and that will be our choice.
M&D


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi again

The larger units come with battery type leads with "O"rings its best to have a Fuse in line I used a Big Sterling gold plated Jobby. The Invertor comes with a neat little remote control unit which displays the Status as well.

This size of invertor needs to be connected close to the batteries due to the Ampages involved when running Heavy loads.

My main usage is for a full Mains fridge freezer, when running this alone its uses less than 3 Amps @ 12v (start up hits around 50 amps on compressor start up, but the average hour is still less than 3 amps) And boy does it knock the spots off any Electrolux three way fridge!

BTW in an earlier post you mention that the solar gismo avoids gassing, people often mix up "boiling" with gassing a decent charger will always gas the batteries, it is part and parcel of fully charging a battery. But thats another story.

George


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

I don't want to enter into a Stirling vs. Victron argument with George 

However, Victron are used in high end yachts upto large cruise liners. They are a multi-national company many times the size of Stirling, and their products aren't made in Taiwan. They use a combination of switch mode and toroidal coil technologies to combine compactness with surge power capability.

They are almost silent in use, beautifully engineered and highly efficient (our 1600W model wastes only 5W when not loaded). They have a range of products that work together beautifully, most notably the BMV-501 battery monitor that turns unfathomable voltage and current readings into a simple % readout.

They all come with temperature probes to ensure correct charging. They all offer permanent, uninterrupted mains in your van. They offer PowerControl which allows you to tell the unit how much power you have available so you'll NEVER trip your genny or hookup.

They presently are the ONLY company to offer PowerAssist which synchronises the inverter with the incoming mains to allow you to temporarily consume more power than is availalbe from the hookup / genny. This is the real clincher for us.

After considerable consultation with marine fitters, www.mcltd.com, and others I believe Victron is the current market leader. To give you some idea of cost a Victron MultiPlus 12/1200/50 gives you...

A 1200w pure sinewave inverter
A multi-stage 50A charger
Automatic distribution of incoming power
PowerAssist and PowerControl as above
Permanent mains on your van
Over 2kW of power from a Honda EU10i
Peak power of over 3kW

... how much, about £895 inc VAT.

It's like comparing an Peugeot to a Ferrari, apart from the fact the Ferrari's the price of an Audi! If your ONLY consideration is cost, then buy Stirling

(Don't flame me George, I would love to recommend British designed Stirling above all others. It wasn't until I started looking at Struda, MasterVolt, Victron, etc that I realised Stirling isn't the only solution)

Best regards

Ben[/b]


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Ben and Lizzie

No Flames

Victron and others Over specify there invertors, note in the other thread a Sterling of the same rating will always be more powerful, most people would assume that a 1600 watt Victron unit is more powerful than a 1500 w Sterling, It is obvious from reading the specs that this is not so, but how many people read the specs properly, to me Victrons bumpf is misleading. Price wise Sterlings are better too even if their products were not more powerful, which they are watt for watt A sterling always comes out ahead because it is rated correctly.

Also the Victrons standby power may well be only 5w sounds impressive again you are not comparing like for like quiescent current as stated by Sterling is the current it will use when under no load and still be the same when under load, the Victron is using that standby power rating to disguise a much higher quiescent current, when under load it is far higher, typically 2-5 amps will be wasted when it is under load, whiloe the Sterling is still only using .7 or less regardless.

Sterling also do a range of complementory products easy to understand battery management etc

*"They all come with temperature probes to ensure correct charging. They all offer permanent, uninterrupted mains in your van. They offer PowerControl which allows you to tell the unit how much power you have available so you'll NEVER trip your genny or hookup."*

Now you are a bit off topic because here we were discussing Invertors. and you have moved on to Invertor/Chargers, Which by the way Sterling do to, the difference is that the Sterling 3000w invertor is a 3000w invertor the victron in reality by their own specs is only a 2000w invertor !

The Above Statement (re never blowing a hook or genny trip) is inaccurate, it will only avoid tripping the mains if you set the ampage correctly (ie you have to know what is available, this is not always possible at times of high demand a 10 amp hook up may only allow 7 amps to be drawn, unless the unit as some fantastic ability to "know" then the statement above cannot be true !)

Sterlings are also almost silent in use, beautifully engineered and highly efficient and most importantly the ratings are accurate and not designed to mislead also the prices are much better. Watt for real watt far better.

A 1200w pure sinewave inverter 
A multi-stage 50A charger 
Automatic distribution of incoming power 
PowerAssist and PowerControl as above 
Permanent mains on your van 
Over 2kW of power from a Honda EU10i 
Peak power of over 3kW

... how much, about £895 inc VAT.

If this is true I will buy the package now ! an Honda eu10i and a Victron Power assist for £895, fantastic value even tho the invertor part is only 900w again not as claimed 1200w, Why do you keep on mixing up VA and watts ? I know most people do not know the difference, is this what yourself and Victron bank on ?

You also Claim the Honda Eu10i is a 1 Kw generator actually 900w, 1 Kva is not 1000watts.

Top athletes can run 100 metres in under 10 Seconds, would you claim that they can run 1 kilometre in under 1 min 40 secs ? This seems to be how Victron and Yourself rate products.

Putting the real facts as confirmed by Victrons and Honda's own specifications does not amount to Flaming.

Bad analogy about cars really, would you buy a ferrari and be happy with mini performance ? thats what you are getting with the Victron, you think you are buying performance but its not actually there.

George


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

George, this is getting a little silly - have you been brainwashed by Charles Stirling?

I state the wattaged I do because I have a 1600W Victron, and my 1440W hoover ran from it for over an hour with no hookup the other day. The day was 26 degrees celcius, and the battery locker hotter than that!

I agree that accoding to Victron specs this isn't possible, but it does it. It seems Victron are somewhat under rating their products NOT over rating.

Right NOW we're running 2x50W laptops, a 50W flatscreen and Lizzie's using a 1200W hairdryer in the bathroom. We are in the middle of nowhere, no hookup, no genny. I make the sum 1350W, and the Victron's perfectly happy.

Forget VA, it'll just confuse other readers. It's 27 degrees C in our battery locker, and according to the Victron specs it can only produce 1200-1300W at this temp.

*When you buy a 1600W product, you can run 1600W worth of stuff, and that's comparing the label on the product to the label on the inverter - exactly what 'normal' people will do (without regard for power factors, VAs, surge currents, Peukert exponents, temperature compensation, inductive / capacitative loads, etc. etc.)*

I'm not going to contiune these posts, because I'm too busy. We should meet sometime when in the same part of the country so you can have a look at / play with the Victron yourself, you may be surprised.

Best wishes

Ben


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Ben

Its Charles STERLING not Stirling, what as your battery box temp got to do with the Invertor? Invertors should be sited close to the batteries but not in the same box, if it is you are putting yourself in Danger.

Running products short term is not the problem, I am quite sure it will but it will not run stuff amounting to 1600w for long if the temperature rises above that stated in the specs.

Also if you are going to rate products like that by the same token (Victron/Van Gear rating system) then a 1500 watt sterling is a 2500w invertor (when Rated as per Victron/Van gear)

Forget ~VA !! what you are saying is dupe the readers VA and watts are similar, but not the same thing Rated that way the Sterling 1500w is now a 3000 watt invertor. (rated as per Van gear, Victron do not try to claim VA is the same as wattage)

Compared like for like Sterling products blow Victron out of the water when compared by price and performance.

You like Victron Products (and want to sell them) fair enough but you will not come here and compare them with Sterling unfavourably, without me putting the real facts and figures.

I use Sterling and reccomend because it is good stuff and after researching many other brands (and you can see I have really compared the specs not Just the overblown advertising claims)

*When you buy a 1600W product, you can run 1600W worth of stuff*

This true when you buy a Sterling however by Victrons own Specs it is only sometimes possible with the Victron, If it gets warm it will not and we are not just talking weather temperature here, in use an Invertor will get warm under load, In Victrons world this means that in long term use you have only got say a 1 KW invertor.

If we ever meet you will see that the Sterling 1800 will run 1800w of gear no stop regardless of temperature whereas the Victron will not.

Ye gods, even Victrons own specs reveal the truth, nothing I have posted above is not in their own Specs. Read them with your Degree head on and take off the rose coloured goggles.

George


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

BTW Ben

What size battery bank have you got ? 

over 120 amp hours, for an hours hoovering, how big is your rig ?

I can hoover an entire 3 bedroom house in less than that ? confused?

George


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi 

I missed this bit

"However, Victron are used in high end yachts upto large cruise liners. They are a multi-national company many times the size of Stirling, and their products aren't made in Taiwan. They use a combination of switch mode and toroidal coil technologies to combine compactness with surge power capability."

Sterling is world renowned, it is also a multi national business it as dedicated Manufacturing in Tiawan and a sister company in the USA, Professional Mariner all the design work is done in house in England.

Sterling gear is also fitted into High end Yachts, I am not aware of the position re cruise liners, so will not comment either way or BS.

Sterling also have a large surge capacity but remember watt for watt they are way ahead if you compare Box stated numbers.

Sterling's business as grown year on year.

Sterling were the first to introduce the folowing products 

1. Switch mode chargers
2. 230v alternators
3. Multi stage advanced regulators
4. First and as yet the only people to accurately rate their products outside the USA, So in Europe are the only supplier who gives you the real specs from the Start, not hidden away in technical bumpf.

George


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

While acknowledging that this thread has indeed drifted from the simple enquiry which started it (and whose spirit I tried to keep to in my reply in the 2nd message), nevertheless I'd like to chip in a brief twopennorth, from the perspective of a potential customer of Victron and Sterling products with no axe to grind other than wishing to spend my money wisely.

As I have said earlier in this thread, both manufacturers offer quality products. Both fall short in the information they provide to potential customers. Sterling can be verbose and rambling with broken links on their website and with key information missing (just how big is the 1500W inverter charger? I'd really like to know!)
http://www.sterling-power.com/htm/cu.htm
Victron include some confusing constraints that aren't there in practice. Why? Who knows.

As to ratings, certainly I prefer the "standards" Sterling use. But, to be fair to Victron, they are hardly conning their customers. They are entirely open and publish full information. For example, on temperature variations and inverter efficiencies, I find 
http://www.victronenergie.com/Techn...ting operating temperature and efficiency.pdf
extremely informative and reassuring.

I am interested in all of alternator regulators, big chargers and big sine-wave inverters. My thinking at present is to plump for a Victron inverter/charger, and the jury's still out on the Sterling alternator regulator. Reasons:

I find Victron as a company responsive technically to my questions; Sterling not. This is not simply my experience. From other credible and experienced sources, far removed from MHF, but whom I cannot attribute here, it seems Sterling indeed offer value-for-money products, but the back-up when you need it simply isn't there. There are questions from the same source over the effectiveness of the alternator regulator in practice.

Victron inverter chargers have the unique PowerAssist function, which is no gimmick but extremely useful to me. Yes, the overall output is indeed additive between the output of the inverter and the output of the genny or mains input. Brilliant.

That's it. I don't intend debating it, but some of the 3000+ members may find it useful.

Dave


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi DA

I agree ~Victron do not completely hide the true figures, but you have got to want to find them and if you were in a store buying one the boxes tell a different story.

Looking at the to boxes you would assume the Victron 1600w is more powerful than the STERLING 1500w In reality it is the other way around by a big margin.

Not everyone uses the internet and it is not so obvious looking at the products.

Maybe its because I have always (bar once) dealt directly with Charles Sterling. I have found him extremely helpful and honest. he did not try to sell me the pure sine wave at thrice the cost two other companies ( not Victron) insisted that a pure sine wave was needed, Charles was right and I saved over a thousand pounds on the invertor (and think about it Charles lowered a potential sale how many companies do you know that truly put the customers needs before bumping up sales value ?)

He spent a couple of hours helping me design a system to suit what I wanted and all with no guarantee of a sale at the end!


PS I do not wish to argue either, but it does annoy, when Ben insists on using advertising Hype rather than real facts and figures.

George


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## 92386 (May 1, 2005)

Phew! 
I see you have become unstoppable following your enforced exit from the sbmcc George :roll:


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## 90473 (May 1, 2005)

Lots of good info (copy/paste, copy/paste, copy/paste) which I have safely stored away in my reference folder.

Okay Dave, **nuke it** now I'm finished.


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