# Ventilation (or lack of) - cross post from MMM



## 89539 (May 27, 2005)

Hi all,

Apologies for the long post. But hopefully those of you who have been doing this for a while may be able to comment……

We upgraded from an A-S Trident to an A-S Nuevo ES in December because my 2 kids were starting to get a bit claustrophobic in the top berth of the Trident. Since we like to camp all year, we need a reasonable 4 berth, but it also needs to double as a second car when needed. Hence been rather taken by the layout of the Nuevo  

Our first trip to France in Feb. this year was great and on the way down, we let the kids sleep in the 2 singles while we drove and stopped in an Aire some time after midnight and the wife and I slept up top. Being rather tired, I slept soundly despite sleeping in the smaller “inside” berth (I am 6’ and about 15st! :twisted: )

On the way home from a fantastic “trial” ski trip, we followed a similar pattern i.e. drive late while the kids slept and then pulled over before it got too late or I got too tired. This time I awoke in an absolute panic in the early hours of the morning. It was rather hot, and after a while managed to get back to sleep, but feeling like the cramped berth was not great idea for an adult after all. 8O 

All through this summer, we have had many nights away, but frequently my son (who is only 7), wakes up in a bit of a panic. He also sleeps in the inside berth and his sister who is 11 in the outer. We have always put this down to being in a slightly darker and less familiar sleeping environment. He settles reasonably easily.

However, on one of the trips away, my daughter became quite ill (as kids do when you start packing to go away), and so we decided that my wife and 2 kids would sleep down on the double to make the frequent heaving trips to the bathroom easier on all of us. Since I was alone in the Luton, I had plenty of space and slept on the outside edge. Once again, I suffered a complete panic attack in the night. I guess I was feeling like a fish feels out of water. Once I opened the vent fully and got some air circulating, I started to feel better. I am not really a claustrophobia sufferer, so I have started to wonder if the Nuevo ES has an inherent ventilation problem in the Luton. I suspect that the airflow in the Luton is not good enough and that you are able to use up much of the available oxygen after a few hours sleep, given that the volume of air is quite small. All the carbon dioxide from those sleeping below would inevitably rise, and with no cross ventilation you soon run out of adequate oxygen, which causes the body to go into panic mode.

One of my thoughts is to have small side windows fitted, but is this practical on a 'van design that doesn’t really cater for them? The top vents are not totally weatherproof, so they tend to be shut in iffy weather, and then I guess the permanent ventilation is just not quite good enough. I am thinking of replacing the standard vent with a mini Heki, as it does get quite drafty and cold while driving, but I also don’t want to make a bad situation worse!

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated :!: 

Pete


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

Hi Pete and welcome to this community.

I'm sorry to read of your bad experiences in your new van and hope that the knowledgeable members of this group will be able to help you.


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Hi pete from another pete,

Sorry to hear of your problem, its not something i've heard of before, the only thing i could suggest is maybe leaving the heki and the rear roof vent just slightly open, this shouldn't cause any problems with rain/inclement weather and would help with circulation. I was going to say there may be a problem with the heater not venting to the outside properly but this would obviously affect all the inhabitants of the van so can be ruled out. Sorry i can't be of more assistance but from one nuevo owner (2 berth low profile) to another, i hope that someone on this forum comes up with a more worthwhile solution.

Slightly off topic, how did you get on with the van in winter conditions? I'd be interested to hear as we are planning a winter trip to France in January in ours.

Happy travels

pete.


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## Yorky (May 10, 2005)

Hello Pete
One possible solution to your problem may be to fit a small electric fan somewhere high up so it blows into the luton, this will keep the air circulating. I'm no physicist but I don't think it is possible to "Breath " enough oxygen out of the air to cause you problems in a volume as big as a van.
The fan would not have to be blowing hard just enough to keep a movement in the air. Regards Eddie


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi all

Its definately possible to use all the oxygen up if adequate ventilation is not provided. I have heard that the permenant ventilation that used to be included in most roof vents as been or is being discontinued.

URL some info on Carbon Dioxide in enclosed spaces

George


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## 89539 (May 27, 2005)

Hi all, and thanks for the welcome.

"peejay" Pete. No problems at all in France. We were only there for 5 days with the lowest night time temp. recorded at about -4 deg. C. The fresh water only froze once, but a watering can full of hot water from the ablutions soon had everything runnning fine again. Mail me at pete[at]isat(dot)co(dot)za if you have any more questions. I could ramble on for ages.

As to the ventilation problem, the cheap and nasty vents fore and aft let quit a bit of water in, even in light rain if there is any wind at all. The one above the sink is already shot, and flops around a bit. I have seen replacements at the various shows for about £20, so I guess you get what you pay for.

I had thought about the Fiama turbovent, up front to help with air circulation, but not sure if they would be annoyingly noisy at night.

Cheers for now,
Pete


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi 

I have an Omnivent in my Motorhome (see my webpage) its virtually silent on a low setting.

Sorry I have not heard a Fiamma in operation.

George


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Just two of us in a 23ft van wake up gasping unless we have the largest vent up.

You MUST have constant air changes Pete.


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

There is comment about the roof vents and getting top ventilation but as yet no one has mentioned air in.
Are the floor vents all clear and able to allow the free flow of air into the van?


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

> but as yet no one has mentioned air in.


So many gaps in my van you can feel the draughts as soon as the top vent is opened!


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## 89539 (May 27, 2005)

autostratus said:


> There is comment about the roof vents and getting top ventilation but as yet no one has mentioned air in.
> Are the floor vents all clear and able to allow the free flow of air into the van?


On the night in question, it was up at the show in York which certainly wasn't cold. One side window was open all night, and the rear roof vent in the kitchen area was up on one side away from the weather, as was the one above the Luton. I don't believe there is a problem with air getting into the 'van, and as the main area is so huge there is plenty of it. Just wonder why most other makes have side windows in the Luton and A-S have chosen not to. There is a reasonable picture of the Luton aperture on the A-S website, and if you look at that and imagine the bulk of a person on top of the bunk, there is only a fairly narrow postbox left to draw in fresh air.

Given most comments, I think it is safe to say we have a problem, but how to solve it  Also need to be practical in sub-zero temperatures, where the choice becomes, freeze to death or suffocate :?

Pete


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Pete;

Like george we have an omnivent fitted (above the kitchen), this may be the answer, its incredibly efficient, the other day Judy was boiling a pan for rice, this resulted in all the windows steaming up quite badly, we switched on the omnivent on the highest setting and the windows had cleared within a few minutes. On the high setting (3), its noisy but on low (1) you can hardly hear it and it would keep a constant change of air in the van overnight. The only problem i could envisage is power consumption if you're not on hook up but i don't think they use too much on low.

pete.


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

We have two Fiamma turbovents fitted, one in kitchen t'other above rear fixed bed.

Above the lounge area at front, there is one of those awful pop-up style vents, which until a roof spoiler was fitted used to rattle something terrible.

Had words with dealer regarding changing said vent for something more modern, he said no can do due to vent laws regarding gas appliances?

However had no problems in van regarding panic attacks, oxygen depletion or similar, to be honest it sounds like a bl**dy serious problem that needs bottoming. 

What do A/S say about the matter, are there any other high occupancy 'vans having similar problems?

Frightens me when there are young ones involved
Hope it is soon resolved ...M&D 8O


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi Pete!



PKCJ said:


> All the carbon dioxide from those sleeping below would inevitably rise, and with no cross ventilation you soon run out of adequate oxygen, which causes the body to go into panic mode.


No, it would not. Carbon dioxide has a higher specific mass than normal air and also than oxygen. So if your problems were really caused by carbon dioxide the "low sleepers" should feel it first.

Nevertheless, especially when camping in wintery conditions you should keep an eye on sufficient ventilation. And if you have no side windows at all in your Luton (we have one on each side and the one on our head's side is always slightly open at night) you should definitely have the roof vent open. Maybe exchange it against a more weatherproof model.



Morton said:


> I'm no physicist but I don't think it is possible to "Breath " enough oxygen out of the air to cause you problems in a volume as big as a van.


Unfortunately it *is possible* to breathe away enough oxygen to die from suffocation. And in the confined space of a van filled with four people this is just a matter of hours. Several German camper families have already died from this over the last years! But only because they had clogged absolutely all vents.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi all

MandyDave

"Had words with dealer regarding changing said vent for something more modern, he said no can do due to vent laws regarding gas appliances?"

Yes he was talking about BS (Bu**S**t) Gas vents are an entirely different thing by the time the roof vents were reached by LPG you would have all drowned, LPG is heavier than air and drops out at the lowest point. Most (all now except cooker) are room sealed ie they will not unless seriously damaged allow CO into the vehicle. Thats why the newer vents do not have permenant Ventilation (ie old style was always allowing ventilation even when fully closed)

Carbon Monoxide will be neither higher or lower than the surrounding air its density is the same and diffusion will only happen through convected air currents. ie unlike LPG which sinks, CO will be at any level unless an air current moves it.

You want a new vent seek out a better informed Dealer. Omni vents and Fiamma vents both have permenant ventilation anyway !

Couple of primers on CO

http://www.dti.gov.uk/homesafetynetwork/cm_intro.htm

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03364.htm


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## 88781 (May 9, 2005)

Thanks George, on recollection he did mention cooking and Carbon monoxide all in the same breath as it were, my explanation of the regulations are inaccurate.

What he was relating to in simple terms, is that you can't cook in your M/H without ventilation.

Therefore he would not change the 'old style free flow vent open/closed type' for something else.

The roof vent in question is a Fiamma, and does allow airflow even when closed,. it's just a butt ugly thing ! :?


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## 89539 (May 27, 2005)

For those that may be interested, a follow up......

I wrote a letter to Auto-Sleepers, along the same lines of my post and did receive a sympathetic reply from the service centre with the promise of a comprehensive and detailed follow up from the design manager  

However, the design manager in two short paragraphs says:.....

"The roof light in the Luton, as well as all roof lights, have fixed ventilation to provide an exchange of air within the motorhome which should ensure a good supply of oxygen within the vehicle.

I must confess, when I have used this vehicle, I have always opened the roof vent to its full extent and would suggest that to improve your comfort you may wish to follow the same practice. I also sleep with the side windows on the first catch positon again to improve the ventilation"........

So, there you have it. Waking up gasping for breath at night is a figment of my imagination :evil: 

Pity he didn't read my letter that clearly states that the vent was open (and the side windows too) during my last episode.

So what now?

I wish another manufacturer had a similar layout. This rather patronising reply along with really [email protected] service from Marquis is the end.

Pete


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## 88741 (May 9, 2005)

Not a medical person by any means, but would it be possible to be mildly claustraphopic when awake, but when asleep and your rational brain is not in charge to reassure you that all is well, you then have a 'panic' attack, the symptoms can I believe be very similar to O2 deprivation. Some of the over cab beds are very restrictive I beleive. You could always borrow a miners light to check oxygen is available, or a canary 8O


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi
Just been musing on your question and the replies.
Following on from the HelenB reply I am wondering about your description of the panic attack. Having known a sufferer, of Panic attacks, the symptoms were much the same as those you describe when you awaken, I think you maybe ( a big maybe) should investigate if you really are having just that, a panic attack. In these circumstances the body is not short of Oxygen but short of Carbon Dioxide, caused by over-breathing which is caused by the sufferer taking rapid shallow breaths. I know it sounds silly but even though the sufferer wants to get to a window for fresh air the actual cure for this type of attack is to breath in and out from a paper bag...to increase the level of CO2 in the blood. Do we have a medical person onboard? I suppose if we do they would be wary of giving advice in this way. Maybe do an internet search on the cause and symtoms of Panic Attacks.

Mike


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## 89539 (May 27, 2005)

Evening all,

We have thought of trying to get an air quality meter to measure exactly what is happening and seperate fact from fiction. Even so, I am still pretty convinced that the postbox size slot that is left when there is a body sleeping in front of the gap is the problem.

I have managed to find some sturdy looking ventilators normally used in yachts, but they do a general version for motorhomes and caravans etc. They can either pull fresh air in, or exhaust out. I think they will be quieter than the Onmi or Fiamma vent, plus they are solar powered and backed up by NiMH batteries, so not another 12v appliance to worry about and will run for 48hrs without sunlight. They move about 34m^3 of air per hour. Only problem is that they are pretty pricey.

http://www.icpsolar.com/ssfamille.php3?id_rubrique=9

Cheers for now.

Pete


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## RobMD (May 9, 2005)

Appears to me it is more a case of lack of air circulation in the Luton than lack of air in the van.
A fan in the Luton as suggested seems a good idea - and easy to try out.

To possibly improve on that idea,how about a length of flexible trunking (as used for the van blow-air heating) from the front of the Luton to the rear, with a fan at the rear end. That may ensure that fresh air gets drawn into the front of the Luton.
If you have blown-air heating fitted, you could try temporarily diverting that (heater off of course) to the Luton, just to try it out.
(I have the low-profile Nuevo, so don't have a Luton, but just thinking of things to try).

All the best with this problem - It may be worth having a chat to AutoSleepers R & D Dept. They may have a solution, and it could help future development.


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi again
Still pondering your problem, the solar powered vent you found looks a good piece of kit.

Reference is made to the effects of too much carbon dioxide at:

http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/mspot/arp/highco2.htm

part of the page reads:
At 600 parts per million (ppm), people notice the air is "stuffy." 
At 1000 ppm and up, some people may begin to feel the classic symptoms of carbon dioxide poisoning: shortness of breath, difficulty in breathing, rapid pulse rate, headaches, hearing loss, hyperventilation, sweating, and fatigue. 
It goes on to list higher levels and the consequences
check it out

Mike


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## RobMD (May 9, 2005)

Oooops! Only read the first page before I posted my last one


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## bigfoot (May 16, 2005)

Board Closed
This board has been closed for Terms of Service violations.
The Terms of Service

George Telford,
Found the above when I tried to link to your website.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Bigfoot


Yes hoping to get this sorted soon, there are a few miserable whingers out there causing trouble the invision team are investigating a complaint.


George


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Hello everyone
I'm new to motorhomes, in fact collecting one on Monday, but I think I may be able help with the panic attack feelings sleeping in the Luton. My guess is that you just do not have enough room to move about to your normal pattern when you are fast asleep. We have a cairn terrier and as we get ready for bed he sidles into the bedroom and jumps onto my bed. Normally, he is sent back to his bed before I get into bed. Once or twice in the past, as he has settled down right at the bottom corner of the duvet, I have been tired. I have just jumped into bed and left him there. Each time that happened I woke up during the night feeling panicky. As far as I can tell it is because Rik at the bottom of the bed on top of the duvet, has stopped me moving my legs about, and that has been enough to cause me real anxiety and wake up. In other words your problem Pete may not be lack of air, but lack of the abilit to move about as you habitually do when you are asleep. Now as soon as your youngsters realise you have a problem, they will be anxious because they know there is a problem. So provided you have taken reasonable steps to be satisfied there is sufficient air, I suggest you simply do not have enough room. It is possible of course that even your young son is a bit short of space.

Les


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi Pete (Norwegian Blue)

Are you still after a ventilator...here is a solar powered one on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=36798&item=4501478934&rd=1

Not sure if it runs at night from solar powered battery, you could ask the seller.

Mike


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## 89539 (May 27, 2005)

Hi Mike,

Thanks for that, I will have a look. Still burns my @$$ (like knee high flames) that we will end up paying to fix a manufacturing fault. We were down in the New Forrest last week-end and experimented again. First night with max vent open and no blind, no problem. Next night, max vent and blind and my son "panicked twice".

I will have one last go at A-S. Basically they either do something, or I threaten to get a H&S expert to do an air quality test. If it works out fine, I leave it, otherwise take action.

The solar vents I looked at have NiMH batteries, so they can run for 48hrs without sunlight.

Cheers.
Pete


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