# Calor and user-owned portable LPG cylinders..



## Don_Madge (May 1, 2005)

The following article appears in the latest edition of the Caravan Club Magazine. 

CALOR HAS advised all its stockists, including company-owned sites, which supply autogas, not to refill user-owned portable LPG cylinders.. 

The company has established that, although it is not currently illegal to fill refillable cylinders at an autogas site, the insurance protection covering a Calor autogas installation may be jeopardised as a result of any incidents arising from refilling such cylinders. 


The advice does not cover permanently attached tanks for heating and cooking, as they come under the Road Vehicles Construction& Use Regulations. Meanwhi1e, Calor is advising that any customers requesting such a service should be directed back to the origina1supplier of the cylinder. 

I wonder if there other filling stations other than supplied by Calor?I've contacted Calor and will post the reply if and when. 

This should not effect us (I hope) as we have a external filling point, I've only filled up once in this country that was when the bottle was first installed. 

Don


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## Don_Madge (May 1, 2005)

This is the reply I received from Calor.

Dear Mr Madge

The Caravan Club article is correct but it is not just Calor's advice,it stems from the LPGAs statement on the subject which I attach. 

Hope this clarifies the situation.

Regards

Andrew Ford
Corporate Affairs Manager

The LPGA Statement

"It is our advice that user owned, portable LPG cylinders should not be refilled at autogas refuelling sites.
It is our view that UK Health and Safety law, particularly the new Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations (DSEAR) and the Transportable Pressure Vessels Regulations, impose significant duties on the site operator to ensure safety. Autogas filling points are places of work and their personnel have responsibility for safety to everyone on the site,including the general public. They authorise the flow of gas from the dispenser and they may be considered, in law, the filler.

Safe filling of LPG cylinders requires appropriate expertise and/or equipment. 
Staff at autogas filling points cannot fulfil statutory obligations as they have neither.

Were there to be any accident the site operator could be liable to prosecution.

Tanks which are permanently attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper vans or similar) come under the Road Vehicles Construction and Use Regulations and present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion purposes and may be permitted to be re-filled at autogas refuelling sites."


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Interesting, I wonder how one defines "permanently attached" my gas cylinder is held in place by a ratchet webbing strap in a well made cradle(which obviously could be classed as portable), the refilling pipe bracket is attached to the inside skin of the locker by 3 poprivets (permanent), but the refilling pipe is attached to the bracket by 3 bolts and to the cylinder by the usual thread, now is all that classed as a permanent or portable fixture ?

All fuel tanks I've seen have bee attached by removable bolts is that permanent or portable, or am I being pedantic.

One other point, as the gas is being used for heating and cooking it should be subject to a lower rate of VAT.

Ken


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## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

The Caravan Club have been typically sluggardly about this with their comments in their magazine over recent months, choosing to parrot the 'advice' of their commercial business partner, Calor Gas. The latter of course have significant interest in maintaining the status quo on this matter. What about all the other filling stations, Shell, BP etc.? Who else have the CC consulted?

Several months ago, the Caravan Club carried a small piece in it's 'technical section' (sic) in response to queries from a number of members who apparently saw benefits to be had from autogas refillable cylinders. One might reasonably expect that the Club, by way of responding to the interests of it's members, would put some effort into looking into the various aspects of the use of these cylinders but alas, no. Quoting the 'safety' advice of the LPGA via Calor Gas, they merely advised members not to use them on safety grounds. Why so? The great majority of these cylinders carry the same technology with safety fill cutoff and gauge that fixed tanks have and these are welcomed at autogas refill stations. Indeed, the type available from TB Turbo and MTH are manufactured by WVM, one of Europe's premier manufacturers of gas tanks.

If the Caravan Club put some effort into investigating the use of these cylinders, they may well even be able to further the interests of their members by way of succesfully lobbying the LPGA who must surely in any case eventually follow the accepted practice in Europe where the safety of refillable cylinders is readily accepted. I suppose they're too busy reviewing torches or something?

The approach of the CC over this matter has to my mind been pathetic and in complete contrast to the member supportive attitude of the Motorcaravanners Club whose different approach can be seen here http://www.motorcaravanners.org.uk/ but I guess the MCC aren't hand in hand with a business partner with financial interests at work.

The MCC entry clearly suggests that refillable bottles strapped into the vehicle will be classed as 'permanent' for all intents and purposes. As it happens, my refillable is strapped into a locker and I have never had any problems getting it refilled, either in the UK or Europe - no thanks to the efforts of the Caravan Club.

Like many others, if it wasn't for CL's, the Caravan Club would not see my annual subscription!

Steve


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Like you Steve, I also have had no problems refilling, and in my own mind it is a permanent fixture. One thing for sure I will not go back to lifting the cylinders in /out of the locker.

Ken


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Thanks for this post, Don, and an excellent response, Steve.

I'm in despair with this country, that every organisation seems to look for ways to opt-out of almost anything under the guise of obeying "Health & Safety". In the main, these arguments are spurious and a total cop-out.

Exactly the same arguments could be spouted regarding the filling of vehicles on public forecourts with that most dangerous explosive, "petrol". How on earth untrained individuals (you and I) would be permitted to fill tanks with this lethal substance, petrol, if the internal combustion engine had only just been invented. I note that they, too, have spotted this apparent anomaly in their dictat, when they go on to say



> Tanks which are permanently attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper vans or similar) come under the Road Vehicles Construction and Use Regulations and present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion purposes and may be permitted to be re-filled at autogas refuelling sites


So, we now have a new saying to add to the "Pathetic" lexicon - instead of "More than my job's worth, mate", we have "Sorry, Health & Safety, mate".

I truly despair. Is there nobody with any guts left in this country?

Barry


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## Don_Madge (May 1, 2005)

Ken wrote

Like you Steve, I also have had no problems refilling, and in my own mind it is a permanent fixture. One thing for sure I will not go back to lifting the cylinders in /out of the locker.

Ken,

I've got to the stage in life where due to age and disability I'm unable to lift a full 13 kg gas bottle. 

My external filling point is under the rear bumper and the conecting pipe goes through one of the vents in the floor of the gas bottle locker. The bottle is secured firmly in the locker. So as far as I'm concerned it's a fixture.

Friends who have an identical bottle to ours have had problems because they have to slide the bottle out of the locker, once the filling station staff see the bottle they sometimes come and check. Usually once they have seen the gauge and realise it is a refillable bottle everything is OK. If this new ruling is enforced they could be in trouble

Don


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Ephesus

We are in fact the same age ,and for the same reasons changed to refillables. I mounted a corner bracket for the refill pipe in the top L/H corner of the gas locker (removable if I decide to sell), this leaves enough room for a small bottle for the Cadac or as a spare in the unlikely event of running out of gas, my gas locker door closes completely hiding the filling point

Ken


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## Yorky (May 10, 2005)

Hello All
I'm like the rest of you my cylinder and the pipe work is a "Fixed installation", as someone said earlier it would probably be easier to drop an underfloor tank than unbutton my setup.
I think the shortsighted lot at the CC expect people who own refillable to roll up on the garage forcourt and get a cylinder out of a locker stand it on the floor attach the filling pipe and go from there.
I'v had no problems anywhere, by the time anyone comes out of the kiosk to ask the cylinders full anyway. Regards. Eddie


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## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

> I think the shortsighted lot at the CC expect people who own refillable to roll up on the garage forcourt and get a cylinder out of a locker stand it on the floor attach the filling pipe and go from there.


I think you're right Morton but that's because the CC are usually thinking 'Caravan' rather than motorhome.

I also agree with you about the kidology involved in arriving on the forecourt and filling up quickly giving the impression of filling a fixed tank even if it isn't fixed. The sight of an attendant leaving his or her nice warm seat in the cabin is an unusual one and may only happen if they see a loose cylinder being plonked onto the concrete next to the pump. Would tend to frighten other forecourt users as well I guess as a refillable looks to the uninitiated like any other Calor Propane cylinder and that is perhaps the biggest problem.

Steve


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

"Don't forget, it's Health & Safety, mate."

Barry


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## Yorky (May 10, 2005)

I think if calor could have got "Refillables" under any aspect of contravention of H & S Barry they would have gone for an outright ban.
Legislation is only as good as the mentality of the person applying it.
Regards, Eddie


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## dodger148 (May 9, 2005)

Its not so much the problem of refillable cylinders, but the care of same. 

Calor and other Cylinder Gas Producers do test gas cylinders on a regular bases and also re-valve as and when necessary.

With Private Cylinders they cant be certain that either is done and this is where the problem lies. I spent the bulk of my working life in the compressed gas industry and we would fill private cylinders but would want to test and re-valve if needed or see a last test cert date prior to filling.
If any of our members are Fire Fighters, they will tell you what leaking valves can do.


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## nobbythehobby (May 9, 2005)

Hi,

Fair point but that does introduce yet another safety feature in favour of these refillable cylinders and that is that they are actually fitted with a pressure release valve. Calor and other commercial cylinders are not.

What this means is that in the event of a fire, the gas from a refillable will release when the bottle becomes heated. The Calor type bottle will not, it will simply explode. If a safety argument is being put forward, then this is surely very much in favour of the refillable.

The main thing that bugs me is the discrimination shown over this by the authorities. How often are the owners of 'fitted' tanks asked for certificates at a filling station or required to submit the thing for testing? I would suggest hardly ever, if at all. 

If there is to be some type of campaigning by the Club, Calor or the LPGA for safer storage of gas, then it should be for all users not just a small section.

Steve


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## 92387 (May 1, 2005)

*Refilling cylinders*

It makes me wonder how it seems if there is a gas issue, everyone turns to Calor!At the end of the day they are another company like any other in the UK. It seems the like of the lpga need to be consulted. Indeed calor supply some of the gas, but don't they buy it of the large companies i.e. the likes of shell, BP, esso etc?

I have been using my refillable cylinders with no problems on the fourcourts, like other articles state, mine is permantly fitted into my locker as any other bottle is, i also have the filling point permantly installed to the side of my van. Where lies the problem with that?
As i understand the safety features i.e. the 80% cut off, safety valves etc are the same as those installed to a LPG fueled car?

Just seems that at the end of the day as with all new products not everybody's sure, but do we turn to calor as an association or as a company?as far as im aware there a company??

I save alot of my bottles, calor 6kg used to cost me round about £12 for a refil, with my bottles £4.50! Noticeable?

Calor have stated they they do not advise the refilling, but it isn't illegal? Seems to me that there a bit unsure, or is it because there put out because they have nothing to do with these cylinders?

At the end of the day after calor increasing the price of refils constantly, the refillable systems seem ideal for myself and i've never had problems refilling nor do i regret it!

As far as i'm aware calor do not own all the gas supply to the LPG stations there are the other companies that have started to appear, i.e. those that offer cylinder exchanges which are not calor bottles.


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## MOTORHOMER (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Refilling cylinders*



jack40 said:


> It makes me wonder how it seems if there is a gas issue, everyone turns to Calor!At the end of the day they are another company like any other in the UK. It seems the like of the lpga need to be consulted. Indeed calor supply some of the gas, but don't they buy it of the large companies i.e. the likes of shell, BP, esso etc? qoute.
> 
> Hi
> 
> ...


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