# Hank the Tank engine trouble



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Van was moved for the first time in 3 months the other day and did about 35 miles no problem.

Come to start it today and there is lots of blue smoke and it sounds like it's missing a bit. It's normally a bit lumpy and smokey at start up but usually clears.

I notice a small patch of oil with bits of water on it where it was stood but no obvious leaks.

I have had to go out until about 3pm so have just left it. It was running a while though and lots of blue smoke.

Phones the garage and they reckon either knackered injector, blown turbo or a piston problem. I'm wary to move it or even try it up the road and wondered if I should get safeguard to recover it to the garage which is 15 miles away.

There has been some debate for a while that the injectors might be iffy.

Any thoughts? It's all I need right now.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

All I can say is a brotherly

'Oh S H I T!. Oh S H I T! Oh S H I T!'

It is going to be difficult for anyone to give advice at a distance.

I have just one thought about the oil and water - are you sure the oil has just appeared or could it have been old? Is the oil still liquid or is it dried into the surface? If the oil and water had come out simultaneously I would have expected the oil to be on top, not the other way round.

Another thought is that the water is condensation from the engine which was shaken loose by vibration when you started Hank. 

I have Safeguard Insurance and just checked the Recovery cover and it is only covered for home if you have the additional Home Start cover. If you do not have it, it may be cheaper for the garage to collect it if they can lift the size/weight - or get them to send a mechanic to advise if it is driveable.

To save you looking up Safeguard UK Breakdown No. it is 

0800 269 325

Good luck, Barry. I hope it is not too expensive.

Geoff


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks. Will check my cover when I get home. I suspect it's just standard.


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Stuck injector most likely.

Peter


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Agree with Peter most likely an injector.
As to the oil / water on floor, if there is a drop of oil on floor you'll often see droplets of water sitting on top.
Very unlikely to be piston or turbo I'd suggest.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Peter

I think you could be right, but in case it is something worse I would not like to recommend driving it.

Maybe one solution, since the MH is at home and he has not got a trip planned, is to take out the injectors and take them for service, re-fit, bleed the lines and try again. If Barry an do that, but I am sure there must be an agricultual travelling mechanic in his area who could drop in to do it - taking them out is only a 10 minute job.

I remember taking the injectors from my boat's 1978 Merc engine to Watsons in Wimbledon; as soon as I showed them to the boss and he said 'Oh that's an old Merc injector' I thought I am in the right 'shop here. But he had to phone me to get the pressure settings off my old engineer (ex-Merc) who udsed to service the engine - had them off the top of his head. Not many of those sorts of guys left these days.

Sorry, rambling. It's just that I appreciate that sort of expertise and want to encourage its continuation.

Geoff


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Geoff, getting the injectors out of the engine that Barry has is not a 10 minute job and will require a special socket to do so, also the servo makes getting one out very difficult, not a job for the faint hearted and I wouldn't suggest Barry attempted it.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I wouldn't suggest that Barry attempt any mechanical work at all. He's lethal and probably only has a hammer and vice grips anyway. He keeps those for working on the brakes and steering.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks. Geoff, have you gone bananas? I can just about open the bonnet and sometime that doesnt always work! :grin2:

Anyway, just got back home and did the following

Checked oil. A little low but its a while since its been serviced and it did get hammered over the Pyrenees all last summer. No oil on the road. Started up and I had to drive it 100 yards up the road (hill) and back to turn it round to get it back in the drive (moved it this morning for oil man to deliver oil). Still smoking but once it was driven a bit the smoke almost stopped. Left on tick over back outside the house and its still missing a little but but the turbo is definitely working. I also think its fuel or injector related but what do I know? There has been some debate about the injectors on this van causing problems for a while but I never got them looked at.

I have put it back on the drive for now until I decide what to do with it. It stinks though. Smells very fuely. Actually it smells like a helicopter.  certainly a smokey diesel type whiff. 

Performance was fine up the hill though and perfect the other day when I took it out but I did notice every now and then the other day on a longer run a bit of smoke when we were first setting off, changing gear etc.

There is a mechanic just around the corner but I would prefer my garage 15 miles away in Darlington to handle it. Having said that whoever does it will need to send the injector off so really I am just paying to have them taken off, repaired and stuck back on so I guess the local guy might be the best bet. Or I could get my Darlington garage to come out and take a look and whip them off here I suppose.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

My tuppence worth.

power going up hill sounds like turbo is OK,

no oil on floor means no holes or major leaks, 

clouds of smoke when setting off isn't too big a worry, unless you sit revving the engine when stopped you will get a build up in the zorst, which get a kick up the harris when you set of so looks bad, older vans are worse for this.

You might get a puff changing gear, (that'll be tuggers) could be multiple causes from dodgy valves seals/stems to all kinds of tiny components getting warn, as the engine gets hotter some of them cease, but are back when cold again.

As you haven't mentioned any knocking I don't think it's terminal, Eurojohn is yer man though but difficult from a distance.

Hope it's something cheap to sort though, and if you know tho oil was low top it up, it's there for a reason :roll:


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## jo662 (Jul 27, 2010)

Dont touch it Barry ffs.


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

Link @BillCreerposted in a previous thread.

http://www.dieselbombers.com/genera...iesel-engine-smoke-color-what-means-what.html

Terry


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

If its injector issues it will more than likely be white/grey smoke. Blue smoke usually means valve stem oil seals.

Is your van parked on a slope?? is so oil could be pooling around the top of the valves whilst its stood. If it IS on a slope try parking the other way round and see if that makes a difference.

Andy


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Mrplodd said:


> If its injector issues it will more than likely be white/grey smoke. Blue smoke usually means valve stem oil seals.
> 
> Is your van parked on a slope?? is so oil could be pooling around the top of the valves whilst its stood. If it IS on a slope try parking the other way round and see if that makes a difference.
> 
> Andy


I meant to say most of that, and got a bloody phone call so sent it as was :roll:


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

eurajohn said:


> Geoff, getting the injectors out of the engine that Barry has is not a 10 minute job and will require a special socket to do so, also the servo makes getting one out very difficult, not a job for the faint hearted and I wouldn't suggest Barry attempted it.


John

I bow to your superior knowledge about that engine and installation. I forget how easy is the access to my boat engine where I can lift the cockpit sole and stand over the back end of the engine but also have access to the front end from the cabin.

However, if Barry has previously been given a warning about the injectors, and maybe they have never been serviced, I think it might be time to have them all out and serviced.

Prior to removal I presume any mechanic would also check free fuel flow to each injector, just in case of a partial/blockage.

Anyway Barry, good luck.

Geoff


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## valphil (Sep 5, 2012)

If it is the injectors , I took mine out , took them to a specialist and they reconditioned them . cost £ 180 inc vat and I put them back in . so if you cant do it , it will cost you that plus 2/3 hours labour . it improved my mpg , better perfomance and got rid of black smoke . note black smoke , as has been said , blue smoke is usually oil . best of luck mate


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Seems reasonable Phil


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

On the engine / injector set up in question it is not unusual for the type of symptom Barry has experienced. 
I would suggest that the smoke he refers to is more white than a true blue, this is caused by the faulty injector dribbling excess amounts of non atomised fuel into the combustion chamber that cannot be ignited, which manifests itself as white / blue smoke in vast quantities from the exhaust.
This is always at its worst when cold as the combustion chamber lacks available heat to help combustion.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks again.

The van is parked on the drive which is flatish but with the van naturally sloping slightly forward. Im pretty sure the smoke appeared more blue than white which going by Terrys guide is not a good sign and it does appear to have used a bit of oil then again its done 8000 miles since its last service in 2013 and I probably checked it once or twice in that time. Loads of that mileage has been up and down some of the biggest mountain roads in Europe, lots of em! So its had some proper hammer.

I thought I had blown something in France in the summer when we spent an hour or so coming down the Col de Tourmelet which is 7000ft+. When I got to the bottom and finally used the accelerator there was smoke everywhere. Thought I had blown something but it kind of builds up when your using engine breaking for long periods. I think I heard it was common on the older diesels (2.5TD Peugeot Boxer 1996). Anyway a few miles down the road under load it was clear again.

I really dont know whether to risk the drive into town or get someone round to assess it first.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I'd probably go for it, it's not going to get worse in that distance and less goofing about to, just don't cane.


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## mistycat (Jan 28, 2014)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> I'd probably go for it, it's not going to get worse in that distance and less goofing about to, just don't cane.


it is Barry we you are talking about, anything can happen :surprise::surprise:


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## camallison (Jul 15, 2009)

eurajohn said:


> On the engine / injector set up in question it is not unusual for the type of symptom Barry has experienced.
> I would suggest that the smoke he refers to is more white than a true blue, this is caused by the faulty injector dribbling excess amounts of non atomised fuel into the combustion chamber that cannot be ignited, which manifests itself as white / blue smoke in vast quantities from the exhaust.
> This is always at its worst when cold as the combustion chamber lacks available heat to help combustion.


.... and Barry DID say he could smell unburnt fuel too.

Colin


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks again folks. If I do decide to take it in it will be a long 15 mile drive thats for sure and not one I will enjoy! Maybe take the back roads!


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

If you are that worried, get the garage to come and collect it, they can decide if to drive it back to their garage or get you to recover it there for them.Or else phone them as to which they would prefer and then do it. Stop giving yourself ulcers worrying unnecessarily.Let them do the job.

cabby


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Finally got the van into the garage today. Charged the battery and fired it up this morning. Still very lumpy at startup and plenty of smoke. Didn't seem as bad though and after running for a minute or so no misfire.

Some smoke when setting off but once I was 300 yards up the road no smoke at all. This is kind of how it's been for ages but this last two times worse that usual hence the alarm.

Garage are going to test the glow plugs first. They said if it was injectors it would smoke all the time. Is that right?

I'm still concerned that it's something warn in the engine but maybe it just needs a good service I don't know.

Performance all the way in to town which is 14 miles was spot on.


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

I'd guess there is a possibility of a glow plug fault but would still plump for injectors.
Your engine uses a style of injector that relies on a spring shutting off the fuel as well as ensuring a correct spray pattern. It is very possible for them to be a bit "sluggish" shall we say, the garage perhaps has experience with the more modern style of diesel where the fuel injection is controlled electronically via an ECU and is less likely to act erratically.
As to needing a service that will do nothing for the running, unless you have a very clogged filter, but the oil change will benefit you.


As to anything worn in the engine, to behave as you originally posted i.e. excess smoke etc. it would not self heal and go away, if something broken causing it it would stay broken


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Which garage do you use Barry?


Are they any good? Future reference seeing as though we are both near Barny.


Paul.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

eurajohn said:


> I'd guess there is a possibility of a glow plug fault but would still plump for injectors.
> Your engine uses a style of injector that relies on a spring shutting off the fuel as well as ensuring a correct spray pattern. It is very possible for them to be a bit "sluggish" shall we say, the garage perhaps has experience with the more modern style of diesel where the fuel injection is controlled electronically via an ECU and is less likely to act erratically.
> As to needing a service that will do nothing for the running, unless you have a very clogged filter, but the oil change will benefit you.
> 
> As to anything worn in the engine, to behave as you originally posted i.e. excess smoke etc. it would not self heal and go away, if something broken causing it it would stay broken


Thanks John. That is somewhat reassuring. If it were serious then it wouldn't just clear up as the van warms up? In fact its not even once it warms up its clear after a few hundred yards. Performance is spot on and although the oil level is a bit low it is getting on a bit and has had some serious hammer since the last service in 2013.

So if its not glow plugs I should still suggest they look at the injectors then.

Many thanks
BD


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

coppo said:


> Which garage do you use Barry?
> 
> Are they any good? Future reference seeing as though we are both near Barny.
> 
> Paul.


Sorry Paul missed your post.

We use Wilsons Motors at the bottom of Haughton Road just off the ring road in Darlington. Used them for 20 years. They have had the odd C0ck up with the van but I know and trust them. I suspect there are better Diesel specialists out there but ive been happy with them over the years and I know they wont fob me off.


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## trek (May 1, 2005)

Lumpy running and smoking only at start up could well be glow plugs especially if you have only had the problem during the last couple of weeks during the recent cold spell. It may have been better today as it's not so cold now. And you say it clears up quickly after running for a short time after starting

Fingers crossed what ever it is it's not expensive.


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Barry, I'm sure you would notice the benefit of having the injectors serviced, if that's what you mean by "looked at", it is very unlikely there will be any visual problem with them, faults and wear will only be obvious when stripped, cleaned and measured.
Problem with your garage, if they are not diesel specialists they will have to remove them and then either get a set of service exchange ones from a specialists such as http://www.jacksonsdieselcentre.com/injectors.asp (bloody link still doesn't work for me) or simply get yours serviced.
Chances are you have got a bad glow plug along with a less than perfect injector bank which gives you the symptoms you experienced, as mentioned before the plugs are cheap and 3 of them easy to replace the 4th is an absolute sod to do but if you also have a dribbly injector you'll still experience problems.
Hopefully the mechanics can sort it for you at not too much expense.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

The poor old van's Bazzered.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

trek said:


> Lumpy running and smoking only at start up could well be glow plugs especially if you have only had the problem during the last couple of weeks during the recent cold spell. It may have been better today as it's not so cold now. And you say it clears up quickly after running for a short time after starting
> 
> Fingers crossed what ever it is it's not expensive.


I was tempted to post similar, but hesitated due to my assessment of my knowledge.

It would make sense in that you are starting only the cylinders which have pre-heated enough to ignite the diesel on compression, and the duff cylinder kicks in when the block has warmed a bit. Thus you might have been firing on 3 and the smoke was from unburnt fuel mixing with the hot exhaust gases??

Somebody maybe will be along to tell me I am talking 'rollocks'

This might also be of interest to Barry and any others:-

On my Fiat 2.8jtd(2002/3) there is, as normal, a glowplug symbol (coil-shaped) which one waits to extinguish before starting. For the last year after starting the symbol flashed for about 15 seconds and then stopped. The manual did not identify the fault but a member on here advised that it indicates that there is a fault with one(or more) glowplugs.

Barry, did you have something similar?

Geoff


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

eurajohn said:


> Barry, I'm sure you would notice the benefit of having the injectors serviced, if that's what you mean by "looked at", it is very unlikely there will be any visual problem with them, faults and wear will only be obvious when stripped, cleaned and measured.
> Problem with your garage, if they are not diesel specialists they will have to remove them and then either get a set of service exchange ones from a specialists such as http://www.jacksonsdieselcentre.com/injectors.asp (bloody link still doesn't work for me) or simply get yours serviced.
> Chances are you have got a bad glow plug along with a less than perfect injector bank which gives you the symptoms you experienced, as mentioned before the plugs are cheap and 3 of them easy to replace the 4th is an absolute sod to do but if you also have a dribbly injector you'll still experience problems.
> Hopefully the mechanics can sort it for you at not too much expense.


The link worked fine for me John.


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Kev, not the actual link but the little link icon (chain and globe) above the reply box that allows you to put your own abbreviated title to what is shown.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Re what Geoff said about waiting for the glow plug light to go out, I've never done this unless it didn't start without heat.

My question is, am I doing it any harm, I've not needed to do it as my engines even old 312 mercs with 700k plus on them have always started right up, only needing a shot or three of heat on icy days.


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## Al42 (Aug 4, 2011)

In the 70's I used to drive an Atkinson Borderer with a Gardner 180 engine , on a cold morning(or virtually any morning) it created its own fog patch and took ages to build the air up and warm up. Very popular on truck stops :grin2:
That's the way it was in those days:smile2:

Like this

http://wjriding.webs.com/3629870721_f50b909a22_b-1.jpg


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

eurajohn said:


> Kev, not the actual link but the little link icon (chain and globe) above the reply box that allows you to put your own abbreviated title to what is shown.


That is odd, I thought you meant it wouldn't link, good job you know how to do it manually then 

I actually prefer this site link method IE type text then highlight it and then use the link icon, not that that helps you.

ADMIN take note.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Al42 said:


> In the 70's I used to drive an Atkinson Borderer with a Gardner 180 engine , on a cold morning(or virtually any morning) it created its own fog patch and took ages to build the air up and warm up. Very popular on truck stops :grin2:
> That's the way it was in those days:smile2:
> 
> Like this
> ...


Bloody ****, how old are you then > >

Come on Admin sort the spell checker out, we're mostly adults on here, and can cope with H E L L


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Re what Geoff said about waiting for the glow plug light to go out, I've never done this unless it didn't start without heat.
> 
> My question is, am I doing it any harm, I've not needed to do it as my engines even old 312 mercs with 700k plus on them have always started right up, only needing a shot or three of heat on icy days.


Kev

My first real experience with diesel engines was when I bought my boat in 1987, which has a Merc OM 636 and with that engine it needs 30 secs of pre-heat - if I try to get away with 25 secs., even in July in Greece, it will not have it.

Of course that engine was originally designed in a British PoW camp by a German engineer and I believe is more properly described as a semi-diesel.

So I have got accustomed to giving any diesel the full period of pre-heat.

Geoff


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

Always a nervous time when something you trust to always work does not.
From a practical point of view, check out the cheapest options first rather than deciding it could be one of the most expensive.
You have really come to a decision already, I think, in getting the injectors checked out. Whatever the eventual problem may be, this can only benefit the overall condition of the van and at best, may cure the problem.
Winter = cold and damp. Residual water could cause damage to the sensitive injectors. Before this, everything was working.


Alan


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I seem to dimly remember a mechanic telling me not to bother and it'd bugger up the glow plugs, as I said dimly remember, so I'll carry on as I have for however long, never had to replace one touch wood.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks. For those of you that know the history this problem has been going on for some time (years! ). We did change the glow plugs a couple of years ago and it was a bit better for a while. I am still not convinced who did it did the difficult one though. I took it to a diesel specialist recommended by someone on here I think.

Years ago the orange light used to stay on for ages then for some reason after it had been in the garage it was staying on for a much shorter period. Now I tend to turn the key 2 or 3 times to give it an extra shot so to speak. Yes generally it is better in warmer weather but even last summer I noticed it still wasnt great even when it was a warm morning which actually was seldom last year as we were nearly always up a bloody mountain.  Once running it would be fine all day.

I kind of got used to it but it was only this time last week when I panicked as it really was quite bad. Then again its been stood all bloody winter (yes I know I know  wont do it again).

The garage will indeed need to send the injectors off if thats what it is. You never know they might come back and say it was just glow plugs. I suspect they wont want it there long as they struggle for space. Wonder if I should just get them to do the injectors anyway. Did someone say about £400?


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Difficult one Barty, if you're going to keep it for a while it might be a good investment, you like the van and like the lifestyle so it's a bit of no brainer, which is handy for you innit, go on you know you want to.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Your nozzles may be worn.


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## Al42 (Aug 4, 2011)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Bloody ****, how old are you then > >
> 
> Come on Admin sort the spell checker out, we're mostly adults on here, and can cope with H E L L


As old as I feel......bloody old:grin2:

21 in 1970, this Saturday is the end of an era for me as I am not renewing my C + E licence.:crying:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Al42 said:


> As old as I feel......bloody old:grin2:
> 
> 21 in 1970, this Saturday is the end of an era for me as I am not renewing my C + E licence.:crying:


Oh not that old then, I though you might have been in your 90's > >


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

Dear Barry
May I apologise about suggesting you check out the injectors, as these had already been done, something I was not aware of.
Your latest contribution means that you now think it could be the glow plugs not warming up enough. They are certainly a lot cheaper and you could possibly attempt to replace these yourself. This is a problem I have had with an earlier van that tended to be a poor starter and chuck out smoke when starting.
Good luck Barry


Alan


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

rosalan said:


> Dear Barry
> May I apologise about suggesting you check out the injectors, as these had already been done, something I was not aware of.
> Your latest contribution means that you now think it could be the glow plugs not warming up enough. They are certainly a lot cheaper and you could possibly attempt to replace these yourself. This is a problem I have had with an earlier van that tended to be a poor starter and chuck out smoke when starting.
> Good luck Barry
> ...


No Alan the Injectors have not been done. It was suggested at one point a while ago but they never got done. The garage are going to test the glow plugs first and take it from there.

The opinion seems to be that the Injectors may be the cause of the problem and maybe should be done anyway. I didnt bother last time as new glow plugs made it better to some extent but it now seems to have got much worse.

Dunno. Will wait and see what they say tomorrow.

Thanks again everyone for the replies.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

While I remember! I just spoke to the garage and they have done a service on the van and discovered the following.

Two glow plugs were not performing properly so they have changed them. They cannot get to the forth one which is the difficult one without removing the head so they have left that. Suspect its never been changed and probably doesnt work.

Fuel pump was full of sand (That will teach me not to do Donuts on the beach at Biarritz).

Apparently (I will probably get this wrong) something in the fuel pump is moving or wobbling and this means on cold start up it is sucking in pockets of air which probably accounts for the lumpy start and smoke. Its a big job to fix apparently and they have advised me to just leave it for now unless it gets worse. There is a small oil leak on the crank case (Think thats what he said) but again a big job to fix.

They dont think there is anything wrong with the engine. So if thats what it is then fine. I can live with that. 

What do the experts think?


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Barry

Your descrition sounds a bit off-key.

Are you sure what they are referring to, in each case? i.e.

Fuel pump? as in pump drawing fuel from tank to supply the injection pump?

Or the injection pump?

Or the Fuel Filter?

I cannot see how sand has got into the fuel system without there being a real problem with a gasket/seal - but if they found that they could fix it.

Other alternatives is somebody that you upset put sand in your tank - or you filled up at some half-price dodgy filling station in Morrocco?

Geoff


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Change it before you get the bill for fixing the oil leak is my advice. It'll very likely be engine out stripped and rebuilt, doubtless more things that need doing would turn up at the same time.

Either that or bite the bullet and get it all fixed. It can only get worse if you don't.

Don't fully understand your fuel pump reference. Did they say injector pump. The lift pump, normally referred to as the fuel pump should be easily and cheaply changed. The injector pump may be expensive (as in a few hundred) to overhaul.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Alan

Same thinking. We just posted a minute apart.

Geoff


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

If the plug they haven't changed is the one behind the servo which is normally the nasty one to change it can be done with the appropriate spanner or by removing the servo out of the way, really would be best to get it dealt with, sounds as though they haven't tested them as you say they told you "Suspect its never been changed and probably doesnt work", if they had tested them they would know if it was working or not, they don't need to be removed to test.



The fuel pump story sounds a bit iffy to me, are they referring to the lift pump or injection pump?
Sand in fuel pump? This can only be the lift pump filter screen they are referring to if any sand found its way into the injection pump it would not still be working, I'd doubt that sand could bypass the main fuel filter anyway, unless the filter had holes in it!


Wobbly bits in pump "Jackanory" springs to mind.
Oil leak, unlikely to be crankcase, either front crankshaft seal or rear crankshaft seal, if front relatively easy to change, if rear means gearbox out to do, surprisingly easy on your engine.
Unless you have a puddle of oil under the engine and you are having to top up large amounts doesn't sound too serious, you did mention a spot of oil under it in your original post.
If rear seal don't be frightened by the likely comments that it will get on your clutch, that is not likely unless it is leaking vast amounts, as the seal and potential leak is on the wrong side of the flywheel to get on clutch. If the leak is from the gearbox input shaft then that is a reality.


Edit :Alan & Geoff got their reply in whilst I was compiling mine.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Right I have written it down now.

The correct information.

Diesel pump / main mechanical pump there is a Cold start leaver and throttle leaver. Bit of play in shaft on cold start leaver which rectifies once started.


Gunk was in the bottom of the fuel filter

rear crankshaft oil seal is leaking very slightly. This could be the small patch of oil on the drive but they reckon its a days job.


The awkward glow plug was tested and is working but they are not sure how well it is working.


Thanks again


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

If you have a Bosch VE pump or CAV DPA pump, then you have one lever for throttle, a solenoid valve for stop and that's it.

There IS an injection advance lever which is described as a cold start lever by some, but it doesn't have any connections unless you have the wax cold start sensor attached to it. 

This lever is linked to the throttle to give a fast idle, but the whole thing was ditched on later pumps as there were too many variants to keep up with.

If you have a decent fuel leak on the shaft going into the pump then you may get fuel running back to the tank while standing as air can get in at that point. Pump the hand lift pump a few times before starting to see if that makes a difference.

If the glowplugs have been checked, then I'd look at the injectors anyway, then get your wallet out and get the pump sorted. It's going to cost around £450 plus VAT for a full overhaul, but can be less if the main rotor can be used again.

Peter


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Glad to hear rear crank seal can be done with gearbox out. Not too bad then, and maybe not bad enough to be necessary anyway.

How many miles on your engine Barry?


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

erneboy said:


> Glad to hear rear crank seal can be done with gearbox out. Not too bad then, and maybe not bad enough to be necessary anyway.
> 
> How many miles on your engine Barry?


78000 miles. The garage are not really suggesting we do anything at this stage. Not really sure what to do.

EDIT. Its a 1996 Boxer 2.5 TD Peter if that makes any difference.

DOUBLE EDIT: I dont mind shelling out cash for an overhaul or getting the Injectors looked at if it can be diagnosed that this is the problem. This is not what the garage are telling me though. I would be well miffed if I spent another £450 or whatever just to find its something else.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I think you need to find a specialist Barty, even if you need to travel to them, no point in throwing money at it if you're not confident the garage it's at now can't effect a cure.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> I think you need to find a specialist Barty, even if you need to travel to them, no point in throwing money at it if you're not confident the garage it's at now can't effect a cure.


Thanks. I tried that though about 2 years ago. Took it to a specialist and all they did was change the glow plugs but clearly not the difficult one. I told them about the problem and thats all they did.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

That wasn't a specialist then, find out where the local haulage firms send theirs to be sorted when their own mucky necks can't fix it, they need to fast, good and cheap.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks but Ill wait first and see what its like when I pick it up on Monday and talk further with the chief mechanic.

They maybe right though about the cold start whatsit. It clearly is a cold start issue as its worse when its cold!! Fine once its running so (not that I know) but it cannot be injectors then really can it or anything serious in the engine.

Whats the worst that can happen if I just leave it?


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

barryd said:


> Thanks. I tried that though about 2 years ago. Took it to a specialist and all they did was change the glow plugs but clearly not the difficult one. I told them about the problem and thats all they did.


I'd try and find a proper diesel repair shop, there must be one near to you, or there's Peter Slater in S****horpe, he is well known to stationary engine people.

Our own guy is in Luton, so too far away.

Garages in general are not that good with diesels, if you find a good diesel fitter who is conversant with distributor pumps, he is probably retired now as almost all modern engines are common rail with electronic control.

The other people to ask is either the local bus company or on the local taxi rank.

Peter


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks Peter but as said what are the consequences of just leaving it. Its been serviced now and new glow plugs so should be better hopefully. If its as good as it has been over the past few years and this problem has been there for years why bother doing anything?

It would be good to get a definite answer though or a second opinion.


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Barry to be totally honest, the likelihood of a 100% correct distance diagnosis is remote.
What I (and others) have suggested is from personal experience of working and repairing faults such as you have described.
As Peter mentioned the cold start lever does not directly involve the fuel delivery, it is simply like having your foot very lightly on the accelerator pedal when the engine is cold to give you a faster tickover (or at least one that will be maintained whilst the engine reaches its operating temperature).


My advice would be to see how it performs when you get it back, if it starts and runs as it always has, get on and enjoy it. 


With a diesel engine if there are genuine problems with the fuel delivery they will not self heal, to me your problems have always suggested, glow plugs or dribbly injectors, if you do indeed have injectors with worn internals the only thing you are going to notice, other than on start up will be a slight loss of both power and economy, which will also show as excess black smoke, especially when accelerating,


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## BrianJP (Sep 17, 2010)

Barry
Have watched this thread and my first instincts were to say glowplug failure as is very common.
However if you still have problems, as we are in the same area I would suggest you contact Ripon Auto Electrics as they are the experts in Diesels that many garages in our locality use .


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks I will see how it goes.

I may have mentioned it but the garage ruled out injectors as they reckoned there would be smoke or lack of performance all the time, not just on start up.

Van goes really well.

I will see what its like. If its back to how its always been (better than recently) ill just leave it but if its still really bad then I might contact that firm in Ripon (thanks for the tip).


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## BrianJP (Sep 17, 2010)

As with all these situations follow logic.
I suspect that AOK .


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

Hi Barry
I am glad that the potential doom and gloom seems to have been averted. What I and I assume everyone else would like to know is how does it run now they have worked on it.
Diesel being 'thin' if that is a way of describing it, can leak through the smallest hole, which is very unlikely to heal itself, so any leak could only get worse. Unless diesel is leaking into the oil, I am trying to work out what other harm it can do. If it leaked into the oil, the level would rise on the dipstick so I am, until told otherwise, unsure what harm you can cause by driving the van. I am not an expert by any means just trying to follow a practical problem.

Alan


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

rosalan said:


> Hi Barry
> I am glad that the potential doom and gloom seems to have been averted. What I and I assume everyone else would like to know is how does it run now they have worked on it.
> Diesel being 'thin' if that is a way of describing it, can leak through the smallest hole, which is very unlikely to heal itself, so any leak could only get worse. Unless diesel is leaking into the oil, I am trying to work out what other harm it can do. If it leaked into the oil, the level would rise on the dipstick so I am, until told otherwise, unsure what harm you can cause by driving the van. I am not an expert by any means just trying to follow a practical problem.
> 
> Alan


Thanks Alan

I wont know until tomorrow when I pick it up. Unfortunately I am then off to London for a couple of days but will give it a proper cold start test when I get back.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

*Update*

Just turned over the van after its service and new glow plugs for the first time since I got it back. Ok so its warmed up to a tropical 9 degrees here but it started fine. Bit of a puff of white smoke, hardly any smell and a little lumpy on first start but 1000% better than before and better than its been for a long time.

Game on then!

Now I just have to repair the fire. Actually I have to test the new shower that Tuggers sent me which I finally got around the fixing the other week but have not been able to get water in it yet.

Then I need to take the Van to the weigh station and figure out how I can get Carl's 124KG Honda PCX on the back. Might need to get creative with moving stuff about.

Thanks again for all the help.


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## fifthwheel (May 31, 2009)

Barry if you get the injectors overhauled you wont believe the difference it will make. A cleaner exhaust, more power and better mpg.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

fifthwheel said:


> Barry if you get the injectors overhauled you wont believe the difference it will make. A cleaner exhaust, more power and better mpg.


Thanks. Maybe I should do that next. Got a lot of expenditure to think about though right now. Need a new bike (scooter) for a kick off.


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## rosalan (Aug 24, 2009)

I am so pleased for you Barry. When anything that I rely on goes wrong, the world falls out of my bottom.
Now you are sorted I can start taking the Wee Willy Winkie out of you again.:wink2:

Alan


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Barry

I am glad Hank is off the respirator. That means you can breath a Leffe of relief.

Scooter? - just a bit more work -(sorry to swear)

You will be back on the Yellow Brck Road before you know it.

'Keep your pecker up' - as they say in the woodland.

Bip. Bip.

Geoff


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Thanks. New Scooter, Trip to outer Mongolia it is then! Are there any Aires there?


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

I used Powerline Services in Shipley when Sewells of Leeds tried to repair my van for over a year giving it more faults than it had originally. Sewells of leeds had it in so many times I lost count and I will be avoiding them like the plague. Powerline Services sorted it first time. They are Bosch master technicians and really know their stuff.


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