# New tyres - good value?



## lev

Hi all,

I need to replace 2 Michelin 215/R70 CP front tyres and, like most people it seems, am struggling to find stock locally to Worcester.

Just wondering if these would do the trick from etyres?

- Michelin AGILIS more...

215/70R15 S Reinforced

Fully fitted price£116.80 inc VAT each.

I assume they are commercial van tyres rather than camping tyres.

Does anyone use them as £116 seems a reasonable price?
Would there be any problems in mixing camping tyres on the rear and non-camping tyes on the front?

Many thanks
Ross


----------



## DTPCHEMICALS

I had Hankooks fitted a couple of years ago by etyres. Quiter and stop better than the original Michelins.

I did read on a post that the French authorities expected to see a stamp on th etyres related to motorhome use. Camping tyre or something like that.
No such stamp on Hankooks or the 6 French registered motorhomes that i spotted with them fitted in June.

There does appear to be a shortage of that size of tyre.

Dave p


----------



## tude

*Tyres*

Hi one thing I can tell you if you buy camping tyres they are accepted around Europe as winter tyres .that's if you go to the alps in winter time .are yours 15 or 16 inch tyres?


----------



## teemyob

*Re: Tyres*



tude said:


> Hi one thing I can tell you if you buy camping tyres they are accepted around Europe as winter tyres .that's if you go to the alps in winter time .are yours 15 or 16 inch tyres?


No, Camping tyres will not be accepted as winter tyres. Unless they are stamped with the severe Snowflake Icon. To My knowledge, no such Camping Tyre Exists.

DaveP:

Motorhomes DO NOT Have to be fitted with Camper tyres to satisfy the French Authorities. No Manufacturer makes Camping tyres in all sizes so not possible.

TM


----------



## BillCreer

*Re: Tyres*



teemyob said:


> tude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi one thing I can tell you if you buy camping tyres they are accepted around Europe as winter tyres .that's if you go to the alps in winter time .are yours 15 or 16 inch tyres?
> 
> 
> 
> No, Camping tyres will not be accepted as winter tyres. Unless they are stamped with the severe Snowflake Icon. To My knowledge, no such Camping Tyre Exists.
> 
> DaveP:
> 
> Motorhomes DO NOT Have to be fitted with Camper tyres to satisfy the French Authorities. No Manufacturer makes Camping tyres in all sizes so not possible.
> 
> TM
Click to expand...

My Camping Agilis, which I bought just over 2 weeks ago from ATS in the size you want, say "Versatility (M+S marked) M+S = designed to be suitable for mud and snow conditions."


----------



## tinkering

*tyres*

19/5/11...Henstridge tyres ,Marsh lane ind est Henstridge Somerset

2 Michelin angilis 195/70R/15c/8ply fitted

£181.20.

Your quote seems very expensive to me Ross .

Les


----------



## teemyob

*Re: Tyres*



BillCreer said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi one thing I can tell you if you buy camping tyres they are accepted around Europe as winter tyres .that's if you go to the alps in winter time .are yours 15 or 16 inch tyres?
> 
> 
> 
> No, Camping tyres will not be accepted as winter tyres. Unless they are stamped with the severe Snowflake Icon. To My knowledge, no such Camping Tyre Exists.
> 
> DaveP:
> 
> Motorhomes DO NOT Have to be fitted with Camper tyres to satisfy the French Authorities. No Manufacturer makes Camping tyres in all sizes so not possible.
> 
> TM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My Camping Agilis, which I bought just over 2 weeks ago from ATS in the size you want, say "Versatility (M+S marked) M+S = designed to be suitable for mud and snow conditions."
Click to expand...

Yes, you are correct. The Latest Michelin Agilis Camping are an All-Season/Weather tyre M+S Marked. Suitable for Northern European Countries (not all of Scandinavia) as an All-Season Tyre. Gets complicated because for example, In Norway, despite highly recommending you drive on the appropriate tyre, it is not currently against the law to drive on Summer tyres in Winter.

Most European Alpine counties on the other hand insist that in Winter, you drive on winter tyres, certainly in mountainous terrain. That is Winter tyres with the Severe Snowflake Icon. All-Season, M+S tyres are not accepted as winter tyres.

To complicate matters further; Most true Winter tyres will carry the "M+S" Marking in addition to the Severe Winter Snowflake and or Mountain Icon.

Confused?

TM


----------



## teemyob

*Re: tyres*



tinkering said:


> 19/5/11...Henstridge tyres ,Marsh lane ind est Henstridge Somerset
> 
> 2 Michelin angilis 195/70R/15c/8ply fitted
> 
> £181.20.
> 
> Your quote seems very expensive to me Ross .
> 
> Les


Your size is two sizes down!

Can make a massive difference to pricing.

As can availability of Size

If you have a common size for Example

215/75/16 and there are 30 Manufacturers in your tyre type, pricing is competitive.

However, if you have a smaller size that is only produced by say, 10 Manufacturers. Prices can be much higher than the larger sizes.

TM


----------



## trek

Whatever tyres you choose I would recommend that you put the new tyres on the rear (moving the part worn rears to the front wheels)


----------



## teemyob

*Worst*

One of the worst tyres ever produced for Grip were the Michelin XC Camping.

Turn too fast on damp tarmac with these on your wheels and you could be up sh1t creek.

You may as well have put slicks on or Skates.

So how could these possibly be accepted around Europe as Winter tyres?. They were not even M+S Marked.

The Michelin Agilis camping were long overdue and anything was an improvement. Surprises me how many people will pay through the nose for a tyre simply because they are marked "Camper".

TM


----------



## teemyob

*Winter Tyres*

A well priced Winter Tyre 215/70/15

A summer Tyre 

The Matador used to carry the M+S Marking. Not sure if they still do?.

TM


----------



## lev

Thanks to everyone for the speedy replies and advice.

Will take a look at teemyob's suggestions and call local dealers.
An interesting comment re the Michelin XC's as I have seen these at 'quite competitive' prices - will avoid now!

Ross


----------



## teemyob

*Ross*



lev said:


> Thanks to everyone for the speedy replies and advice.
> 
> Will take a look at teemyob's suggestions and call local dealers.
> An interesting comment re the Michelin XC's as I have seen these at 'quite competitive' prices - will avoid now!
> 
> Ross


Don't buy the XC's. They will be running out-of-date soon.

TM


----------



## DaveJM

Just picked up on this thread.

I bought 6 Matador tyres, actually on Teemyob's recommendation!!, and I find they are excellent. 

They are 215/75/R16c and are marked Van and also have the 3 snowflakes to indicate winter use.

I paid £105 each in December last year when winter tyres were very hard to come by.

Matador are made by one of the major manufacturers so quality control should be good. 


Regards


David


----------



## teemyob

*Tyres*



DaveJM said:


> Just picked up on this thread.
> 
> I bought 6 Matador tyres, actually on Teemyob's recommendation!!, and I find they are excellent.
> 
> They are 215/75/R16c and are marked Van and also have the 3 snowflakes to indicate winter use.
> 
> I paid £105 each in December last year when winter tyres were very hard to come by.
> 
> Matador are made by one of the major manufacturers so quality control should be good.
> 
> Regards
> 
> David


Was that the MPS520 Winters David?

Trev


----------



## DaveJM

Trev,

Yes the MPS 520

They are directional tyres and of course I didn't check till I got home, 25 miles away that I realised the twit had put two on the wrong way!

They are also marked up 8 ply - not too sure how significant that is.


Regards


David


----------



## LittleGreyCat

Just looking for camper tyres and they seem to be mainly out of stock.

Just to check - I think camper tyres are not van tyres but have extra strength in the side walls because a camper is expected to spend a lot of time (6 months or more, perhaps) parked up and so there is a long term stress on one part of the tyre and also the tyre is not kept flexible by constant use.

So has anyone had problems over the long term using van tyres instead of camper tyres?

Cheers

LGC

P.S. Vanco Campers in stock


----------



## LittleGreyCat

trek said:


> Whatever tyres you choose I would recommend that you put the new tyres on the rear (moving the part worn rears to the front wheels)


Could you expand on this, please?

Given that my camper is front wheel drive and so the maximum wear is expected on the front driving wheels why would I want to put part worn tyres on them?

Or is this a strategy to put some wear on the older rear tyres which otherwise don't seem to wear much at all?

I am replacing my rear tyres because they are so old the side walls are cracking.
They still have plenty of tread.

Cheers

LGC


----------



## teemyob

*8 or 10*



LittleGreyCat said:


> Just looking for camper tyres and they seem to be mainly out of stock.
> 
> Just to check - I think camper tyres are not van tyres but have extra strength in the side walls because a camper is expected to spend a lot of time (6 months or more, perhaps) parked up and so there is a long term stress on one part of the tyre and also the tyre is not kept flexible by constant use.
> 
> So has anyone had problems over the long term using van tyres instead of camper tyres?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> LGC
> 
> P.S. Vanco Campers in stock


"So has anyone had problems over the long term using van tyres instead of camper tyres? "

No, I have not.

But there are quite a few reports of a Michelin XC camper tyres where the sidewalls have started to crack prematurely.

You can buy 10 ply non camping tyres. I think Avon Avanza and some double branded tyres are 10 ply.
TM


----------



## rugbyken

just querying treks post regarding putting the new tyres on the rear , i have always done the opposite am i doing something wrong.


----------



## teemyob

*Most*



rugbyken said:


> just querying treks post regarding putting the new tyres on the rear , i have always done the opposite am i doing something wrong.


Most suggest that new tyres should be placed on the steering wheels, regardless of drive.

The theory is that should you end up in a skid, the more grip you have, the more chance you have of steering your way out of trouble.

Me?

I would fit the best to the driving wheels.

TM


----------



## BillCreer

Costco refuse to fit new tyres to the front axle. They quote a Michelin directive that tells them not to do so and the Michelin logic is that losing control of the back end,due to worn tyres, is a more dangerous situation than losing control of the front.
I have to agree with that logic but I always end up with the best tyres on the front on front wheel drive vehicles.


----------



## teemyob

*Tyres*

Another reason why you should (I know most of us don't)

Rotate Tyres:

X ways,

for non Directional

and

Front - Back- Front,

for Directional

I am too busy to explain Twin And Tag Axles!

Just Google 6 tire or 6 tyre rotation


----------



## trek

new tyres on rear for several reasons - its the safest way


one reason particularly relevant to FWD motorhomes is that the front tyres naturally wear out quickly compared to the rear, on some campers the rear tread will never wear out with the limited use these vehicles get

if the fronts are always replaced with the new set the rear set will get older & older & the tread will still look good but the tyres will be ageing internally & may go bang!

I was in Germany last year at the Frankia repair centre talking with a Swedish family who had bought their 7 year old 2nd hand coachbuilt that spring with a low mileage & original tyres on the rear. having loaded it up for a two week holiday with their young children they had a blow out in one of the long tunnels in Austria, it was a very frightening experience & the shreaded tyre made one hell of a mess of the side of the van & made a large hole in the floor by the wheel arch. 

They were told by the authorities that it was due to the old tyre, & of course they had loaded their van up & driven at moderately high speeds for many hours & the tyre just couldn't take the punishment. needless to say they bought 4 new tyres before continuing

now if the new tyres always go on the rear & the rears brought forward then you will get more miles / thread out of your set of 4 tyres for your money plus the benefit of never having old tyres on the rear


----------



## trek

TV's fifth gear shows advice:-





the AA says:-
Generally it's good practice to fit the best/newest tyres on the rear - in wet conditions, this favours understeer rather than oversteer. So if you have the front tyres renewed it's best to have the rear ones moved to the front and the new tyres fitted to the rear. Tyres with deep tread are less likely to puncture and it's more difficult to control a car with a damaged rear tyre.

http://www.celtictyres.co.uk/front-rear.php

http://www.tyresafe.org/news-and-events/detail/motorists-get-their-tyres--back-to-front--/

etc etc

just Google new tyres on rear

Same advice form the States
see this video :-


----------



## BillCreer

Hi,

Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-

"Dear Mr Creer

Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings. 

I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."


----------



## NeilandDebs

*tyres*

I have Michelin Aqilis tyres on my tag axles and am about to have Michelin Aqilis Alpin's put on the front axle. These will hopefully keep me on the road in the white stuff and help me get off the green stuff when it is wet!!

Neil


----------



## BillCreer

*Re: tyres*



NeilandDebs said:


> I have Michelin Aqilis tyres on my tag axles and am about to have Michelin Aqilis Alpin's put on the front axle. These will hopefully keep me on the road in the white stuff and help me get off the green stuff when it is wet!!
> 
> Neil


Sounds like a good combination to me Neil.

No doubt someone will disagree though.


----------



## G7UXG

Re the new tyres on the rear/older tyres on the front debate:

A deflated rear tyre will result in oversteer when cornering and be very difficult to control. A rear deflation on a straight section of road such as a high speed motorway is also difficult to control and often results in vehicles travelling sideways. If this happens at speed in a motorhome (or van) it's likely to overturn.

A deflated front tyre will result in understeer when cornering, much easier to control, and on a straight section of road it's unlikely to cause a major problem. Modern vehicles will be able to just slow down and stop safely.

Vehicle manufacturers engineer understeer into vehicles and take account of tyre deflation when setting up a vehicle's geometry. That's why low profile tyres are used more on cars in recent years, because a deflation has less effect on wheel diameter and so less effect on steering geometry.

It's nothing to do with worn tyres having more grip than new ones. They will all have a similar level of grip if the compound of the tyre is similar. I could go on and on....

Minimise the risk of a rear deflation. You really don't want that to happen at speed.

Always put your best tyres on the rear axle.


----------



## BillCreer

Sounds like your going to have to move two of you camping tyres to the front and have a mixture of Camping and Alpin on your Tag axles Neil. :?:


----------



## teemyob

*Tyres*



BillCreer said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-
> 
> "Dear Mr Creer
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."


I am going to take issue with that statement.

I guess it will end up like those A-Frame statements and Certain Authorities like Spain as an example.

As far as I am concerned, M+S does not denote that it is a winter tyre and it cannot be classified as one, simply because it has this marking.

If a Policeman in Say Austria (or worse none EU Switzerland) attends an accident in a state where Winter tyres (with Severe Snowflake Markings) are mandatory and you only have M+S All Seasons fitted, will Michelins claims then stand up in court?.

Maybe Michelin make this claim as they do not currently manufacture a Winter Camping Tyre?.

Here is my Understanding of Winter Tyres

All season tyres

Then when radial ply tyres were also found to deliver more snow traction than the straight rib bias ply tyres, the tyre company marketing departments saw an opportunity, and the term "all-season tyre" was born. Supported by advertising, all-season tyres have presented an unspoken promise that they, throughout their life, can provide traction for all-seasons…through spring's rain, summer's heat, autumn's cooling and winter's snow. And while this combined offering made all-season tyres popular, the problem is that this geometric definition doesn't guarantee performance or any degree of safety in winter driving.

M+S marking on tyres is very misleading.
Many AWD tyres are rated M+S, M&S or M/S, i.e., mud and snow. Established by the USA Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA), the M+S designation refers only to the tread pattern. The M+S standard calls for a tyre with grooves at the outside of the tread that extend into the centre. It also means that 25% of the tyre tread contact surface be open, i.e., a more open tread pattern.

You will find the M+S symbol on most all-season tyres, on off-road and all-terrain tyres and even some high performance summer tyres may have this designation. However, there are no performance standards to meet or traction tests to pass. Any tyre with grooves at angles and with 25% of the tread void can be labelled as M+S.

And on icy snow and on ice, the open tread grooves have zero effect on performance. Control of the vehicle comes strictly from equal parts of the tyre rubber compound that provides adhesion and the effects from the tread sipes.

In 1999, the RMA defined a real "snow" or winter tyre with its severe snow-rating. Car and AWD tyres that pass this performance test and are embossed with the "snowflake on a mountain peak" icon. Severe snow-rated tyres must provide traction at least 10% better than a standard reference test tyre.

The off-road, all-terrain and all-season M+S tyres cannot pass this test. The M+S rating doesn't mean much. The severe snow rating does.

Severe Service Winter/Snow Tyres

All Nokian Tyres have the snowflake-on-the-mountain symbol denoting that they are suitable for use in severe snow conditions. The snowflake-on-the-mountain-peak symbol indicates a severe snow service conditions rating.

In order to meet this standard, tires must be tested using an American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) testing procedure described in "RMA Definition for Passenger and Light Truck Tires for use in Severe Snow Conditions". Tires designed for use in severe snow conditions are recognized by manufacturers to attain a traction index equal to or greater than 110 compared to the ASTM E-1136 Standard Reference Test Tire when using the ASTM F-1805 snow traction test with equivalent percentage loads.

Tyres bearing this symbol will provide snow performance far superior to tyres only bearing the M+S symbol.

The safety of any AWD vehicle in snow and icy conditions is determined by the tyres. First and foremost, the single most important aspect of a winter tire is the tread compound that remains soft at lower temperatures. Always remember that no matter how many safety features an AWD vehicle has it is the tyres that determines how it drives and handles on snow and ice.

Source Here<

Australian Website for Nokian. I did find the Austrian version but could not translate it.

TM


----------



## BillCreer

*Re: Tyres*



teemyob said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-
> 
> "Dear Mr Creer
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to take issue with that statement.
> 
> I guess it will end up like those A-Frame statements and Certain Authorities like Spain as an example.
> 
> As far as I am concerned, M+S does not denote that it is a winter tyre and it cannot be classified as one, simply because it has this marking.
> 
> If a Policeman in Say Austria (or worse none EU Switzerland) attends an accident in a state where Winter tyres (with Severe Snowflake Markings) are mandatory and you only have M+S All Seasons fitted, will Michelins claims then stand up in court?.
> 
> Maybe Michelin make this claim as they do not currently manufacture a Winter Camping Tyre?.
> 
> Here is my Understanding of Winter Tyres
> 
> All season tyres
> 
> Then when radial ply tyres were also found to deliver more snow traction than the straight rib bias ply tyres, the tyre company marketing departments saw an opportunity, and the term "all-season tyre" was born. Supported by advertising, all-season tyres have presented an unspoken promise that they, throughout their life, can provide traction for all-seasons…through spring's rain, summer's heat, autumn's cooling and winter's snow. And while this combined offering made all-season tyres popular, the problem is that this geometric definition doesn't guarantee performance or any degree of safety in winter driving.
> 
> M+S marking on tyres is very misleading.
> Many AWD tyres are rated M+S, M&S or M/S, i.e., mud and snow. Established by the USA Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA), the M+S designation refers only to the tread pattern. The M+S standard calls for a tyre with grooves at the outside of the tread that extend into the centre. It also means that 25% of the tyre tread contact surface be open, i.e., a more open tread pattern.
> 
> You will find the M+S symbol on most all-season tyres, on off-road and all-terrain tyres and even some high performance summer tyres may have this designation. However, there are no performance standards to meet or traction tests to pass. Any tyre with grooves at angles and with 25% of the tread void can be labelled as M+S.
> 
> And on icy snow and on ice, the open tread grooves have zero effect on performance. Control of the vehicle comes strictly from equal parts of the tyre rubber compound that provides adhesion and the effects from the tread sipes.
> 
> In 1999, the RMA defined a real "snow" or winter tyre with its severe snow-rating. Car and AWD tyres that pass this performance test and are embossed with the "snowflake on a mountain peak" icon. Severe snow-rated tyres must provide traction at least 10% better than a standard reference test tyre.
> 
> The off-road, all-terrain and all-season M+S tyres cannot pass this test. The M+S rating doesn't mean much. The severe snow rating does.
> 
> Severe Service Winter/Snow Tyres
> 
> All Nokian Tyres have the snowflake-on-the-mountain symbol denoting that they are suitable for use in severe snow conditions. The snowflake-on-the-mountain-peak symbol indicates a severe snow service conditions rating.
> 
> In order to meet this standard, tires must be tested using an American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) testing procedure described in "RMA Definition for Passenger and Light Truck Tires for use in Severe Snow Conditions". Tires designed for use in severe snow conditions are recognized by manufacturers to attain a traction index equal to or greater than 110 compared to the ASTM E-1136 Standard Reference Test Tire when using the ASTM F-1805 snow traction test with equivalent percentage loads.
> 
> Tyres bearing this symbol will provide snow performance far superior to tyres only bearing the M+S symbol.
> 
> The safety of any AWD vehicle in snow and icy conditions is determined by the tyres. First and foremost, the single most important aspect of a winter tire is the tread compound that remains soft at lower temperatures. Always remember that no matter how many safety features an AWD vehicle has it is the tyres that determines how it drives and handles on snow and ice.
> 
> Source Here<
> 
> Australian Website for Nokian. I did find the Austrian version but could not translate it.
> 
> TM
Click to expand...

Rather than confuse people why don't you write to Michelin and see if they agree with you?


----------



## teemyob

*Re: Tyres*



BillCreer said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-
> 
> "Dear Mr Creer
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to take issue with that statement.
> 
> I guess it will end up like those A-Frame statements and Certain Authorities like Spain as an example.
> 
> As far as I am concerned, M+S does not denote that it is a winter tyre and it cannot be classified as one, simply because it has this marking.
> 
> If a Policeman in Say Austria (or worse none EU Switzerland) attends an accident in a state where Winter tyres (with Severe Snowflake Markings) are mandatory and you only have M+S All Seasons fitted, will Michelins claims then stand up in court?.
> 
> Maybe Michelin make this claim as they do not currently manufacture a Winter Camping Tyre?.
> 
> Here is my Understanding of Winter Tyres
> 
> All season tyres
> 
> Then when radial ply tyres were also found to deliver more snow traction than the straight rib bias ply tyres, the tyre company marketing departments saw an opportunity, and the term "all-season tyre" was born. Supported by advertising, all-season tyres have presented an unspoken promise that they, throughout their life, can provide traction for all-seasons…through spring's rain, summer's heat, autumn's cooling and winter's snow. And while this combined offering made all-season tyres popular, the problem is that this geometric definition doesn't guarantee performance or any degree of safety in winter driving.
> 
> M+S marking on tyres is very misleading.
> Many AWD tyres are rated M+S, M&S or M/S, i.e., mud and snow. Established by the USA Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA), the M+S designation refers only to the tread pattern. The M+S standard calls for a tyre with grooves at the outside of the tread that extend into the centre. It also means that 25% of the tyre tread contact surface be open, i.e., a more open tread pattern.
> 
> You will find the M+S symbol on most all-season tyres, on off-road and all-terrain tyres and even some high performance summer tyres may have this designation. However, there are no performance standards to meet or traction tests to pass. Any tyre with grooves at angles and with 25% of the tread void can be labelled as M+S.
> 
> And on icy snow and on ice, the open tread grooves have zero effect on performance. Control of the vehicle comes strictly from equal parts of the tyre rubber compound that provides adhesion and the effects from the tread sipes.
> 
> In 1999, the RMA defined a real "snow" or winter tyre with its severe snow-rating. Car and AWD tyres that pass this performance test and are embossed with the "snowflake on a mountain peak" icon. Severe snow-rated tyres must provide traction at least 10% better than a standard reference test tyre.
> 
> The off-road, all-terrain and all-season M+S tyres cannot pass this test. The M+S rating doesn't mean much. The severe snow rating does.
> 
> Severe Service Winter/Snow Tyres
> 
> All Nokian Tyres have the snowflake-on-the-mountain symbol denoting that they are suitable for use in severe snow conditions. The snowflake-on-the-mountain-peak symbol indicates a severe snow service conditions rating.
> 
> In order to meet this standard, tires must be tested using an American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) testing procedure described in "RMA Definition for Passenger and Light Truck Tires for use in Severe Snow Conditions". Tires designed for use in severe snow conditions are recognized by manufacturers to attain a traction index equal to or greater than 110 compared to the ASTM E-1136 Standard Reference Test Tire when using the ASTM F-1805 snow traction test with equivalent percentage loads.
> 
> Tyres bearing this symbol will provide snow performance far superior to tyres only bearing the M+S symbol.
> 
> The safety of any AWD vehicle in snow and icy conditions is determined by the tyres. First and foremost, the single most important aspect of a winter tire is the tread compound that remains soft at lower temperatures. Always remember that no matter how many safety features an AWD vehicle has it is the tyres that determines how it drives and handles on snow and ice.
> 
> Source Here<
> 
> Australian Website for Nokian. I did find the Austrian version but could not translate it.
> 
> TM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Rather than confuse people why don't you write to Michelin and see if they agree with you?
Click to expand...

I have no need to write to Michelin, I have my own understanding. And that is what I have expressed here.

I have Michelin Agilis Alpin. And they are good but not the best I have used.

We have 7 Vehicles here and we run them on Winters all-year round. Unless we move to A warmer Climate like South Of France or Spain. Will continue to use winters.

To Simplify it for motorhome use.

Summer Tyres - Everyday Tyre, Summer Tyre. Rarely marked M+S

All-Season Tyre - (Some people still call these "Town & Country") For use in all Season, Usually marked M+S. Suitable for use in Northern European Countries all year and in occasional use in Mud and Snow.

Winter Tyres - (often referred to as "Snow Tyres") - Almost always marked with Severe Snowflake Icon and usually with the M+S Marking.

Not going to bother with Off Road, 4x4, or the numerous others. With the exception of the odd idiosyncratic or all-terrain vehicle, they don't really apply to the vast majority of MHF'ers.

TM


----------



## BillCreer

*Re: Tyres*



teemyob said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thought I would clarify the rules for winter tyres so I wrote to Michelin and got the following reply:-
> 
> "Dear Mr Creer
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable."
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to take issue with that statement.
> 
> I guess it will end up like those A-Frame statements and Certain Authorities like Spain as an example.
> 
> As far as I am concerned, M+S does not denote that it is a winter tyre and it cannot be classified as one, simply because it has this marking.
> 
> If a Policeman in Say Austria (or worse none EU Switzerland) attends an accident in a state where Winter tyres (with Severe Snowflake Markings) are mandatory and you only have M+S All Seasons fitted, will Michelins claims then stand up in court?.
> 
> Maybe Michelin make this claim as they do not currently manufacture a Winter Camping Tyre?.
> 
> Here is my Understanding of Winter Tyres
> 
> All season tyres
> 
> Then when radial ply tyres were also found to deliver more snow traction than the straight rib bias ply tyres, the tyre company marketing departments saw an opportunity, and the term "all-season tyre" was born. Supported by advertising, all-season tyres have presented an unspoken promise that they, throughout their life, can provide traction for all-seasons…through spring's rain, summer's heat, autumn's cooling and winter's snow. And while this combined offering made all-season tyres popular, the problem is that this geometric definition doesn't guarantee performance or any degree of safety in winter driving.
> 
> M+S marking on tyres is very misleading.
> Many AWD tyres are rated M+S, M&S or M/S, i.e., mud and snow. Established by the USA Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA), the M+S designation refers only to the tread pattern. The M+S standard calls for a tyre with grooves at the outside of the tread that extend into the centre. It also means that 25% of the tyre tread contact surface be open, i.e., a more open tread pattern.
> 
> You will find the M+S symbol on most all-season tyres, on off-road and all-terrain tyres and even some high performance summer tyres may have this designation. However, there are no performance standards to meet or traction tests to pass. Any tyre with grooves at angles and with 25% of the tread void can be labelled as M+S.
> 
> And on icy snow and on ice, the open tread grooves have zero effect on performance. Control of the vehicle comes strictly from equal parts of the tyre rubber compound that provides adhesion and the effects from the tread sipes.
> 
> In 1999, the RMA defined a real "snow" or winter tyre with its severe snow-rating. Car and AWD tyres that pass this performance test and are embossed with the "snowflake on a mountain peak" icon. Severe snow-rated tyres must provide traction at least 10% better than a standard reference test tyre.
> 
> The off-road, all-terrain and all-season M+S tyres cannot pass this test. The M+S rating doesn't mean much. The severe snow rating does.
> 
> Severe Service Winter/Snow Tyres
> 
> All Nokian Tyres have the snowflake-on-the-mountain symbol denoting that they are suitable for use in severe snow conditions. The snowflake-on-the-mountain-peak symbol indicates a severe snow service conditions rating.
> 
> In order to meet this standard, tires must be tested using an American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) testing procedure described in "RMA Definition for Passenger and Light Truck Tires for use in Severe Snow Conditions". Tires designed for use in severe snow conditions are recognized by manufacturers to attain a traction index equal to or greater than 110 compared to the ASTM E-1136 Standard Reference Test Tire when using the ASTM F-1805 snow traction test with equivalent percentage loads.
> 
> Tyres bearing this symbol will provide snow performance far superior to tyres only bearing the M+S symbol.
> 
> The safety of any AWD vehicle in snow and icy conditions is determined by the tyres. First and foremost, the single most important aspect of a winter tire is the tread compound that remains soft at lower temperatures. Always remember that no matter how many safety features an AWD vehicle has it is the tyres that determines how it drives and handles on snow and ice.
> 
> Source Here<
> 
> Australian Website for Nokian. I did find the Austrian version but could not translate it.
> 
> TM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Rather than confuse people why don't you write to Michelin and see if they agree with you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have no need to write to Michelin, I have my own understanding. And that is what I have expressed here.
> 
> I have Michelin Agilis Alpin. And they are good but not the best I have used.
> 
> We have 7 Vehicles here and we run them on Winters all-year round. Unless we move to A warmer Climate like South Of France or Spain. Will continue to use winters.
> 
> To Simplify it for motorhome use.
> 
> Summer Tyres - Everyday Tyre, Summer Tyre. Rarely marked M+S
> 
> All-Season Tyre - (Some people still call these "Town & Country") For use in all Season, Usually marked M+S. Suitable for use in Northern European Countries all year and in occasional use in Mud and Snow.
> 
> Winter Tyres - (often referred to as "Snow Tyres") - Almost always marked with Severe Snowflake Icon and usually with the M+S Marking.
> 
> Not going to bother with Off Road, 4x4, or the numerous others. With the exception of the odd idiosyncratic or all-terrain vehicle, they don't really apply to the vast majority of MHF'ers.
> 
> TM
Click to expand...

That's the problem it is your understanding and your opinion.

Many of us know all the combinations of tyres that are available for different conditions and seasons. (including studs and chains)

What people are looking for is simple set of rules that get them around northern Europe during the winter months.

I believe Michelin have supplied that.

Yes they sell a summer tyre that can be also used in the winter.


----------



## bigtwin

A point to bear in mind with respect to the use of winter tyres throughout the year; some insurers may not provide cover for their use outside the winter season.

I have winter tyres on my car and have been obtaining qutoes for renewal. One underwriter suggested that winter tyres were ony for use in temperatures below 10 degrees C!!!!

It's a bl**dy minefield out there!


----------



## NeilandDebs

*Winter tyres*

Having read all of this thread twice now I am still of a mind to stick with the Agilis's on the tag axles,(middle axle tyres are 12months old rear axle 18 months old). Then the Agilis Alpines on the front.
Unless anyone knows of a better winter tyre!
My problem is at the moment finding someone in the Poole area who can supply them. They seem to be like rocking horse dohdah!!

Neil


----------



## teemyob

*Re: Winter tyres*



NeilandDebs said:


> Having read all of this thread twice now I am still of a mind to stick with the Agilis's on the tag axles,(middle axle tyres are 12months old rear axle 18 months old). Then the Agilis Alpines on the front.
> Unless anyone knows of a better winter tyre!
> My problem is at the moment finding someone in the Poole area who can supply them. They seem to be like rocking horse dohdah!!
> 
> Neil


Hello,

Sorry I have not replied to your PM, we have been away.

To Answer in part.

The best Winter Tyres I have ever experienced are Goodyear ULTRAGrip 7+. phenomenal grip, have to be experienced to be believed. I bought them last year for our Daughters Swift. Just ordered a set for our minivan and off the back of these (not read any reports as yet) a set of ULTRAgrip 8's for Mrs TM's Audi A2.

Sadly, they dont make them in C rated commercial tyres.

If you have a tag axle, I would put the Alpins or other Winters on the front axle.

After all, I think you are looking for traction on the front drive wheels?.

The only things I find with the Alpins is that they are a bit soft on the sidewalls and the tread. I also think the tread pattern is a bit too open.

Vredstein COMTRAC Winters
Good year CARGO ULTRA GRIP
Toyo H09
Falken HS-437 VAN
Dunlop SP LT 60
Bridgestone Blizzak W800

Are all good Winter Tyres. Vredstein seem very popular with Germans, Dutch and Scandinavian motorhomers.


----------



## grumpyman

LittleGreyCat said:


> trek said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever tyres you choose I would recommend that you put the new tyres on the rear (moving the part worn rears to the front wheels)
> 
> 
> 
> Could you expand on this, please?
> 
> Given that my camper is front wheel drive and so the maximum wear is expected on the front driving wheels why would I want to put part worn tyres on them?
> 
> Or is this a strategy to put some wear on the older rear tyres which otherwise don't seem to wear much at all?
> 
> I am replacing my rear tyres because they are so old the side walls are cracking.
> They still have plenty of tread.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> LGC
Click to expand...

Mentioned this to my Tyre Man who said the same all as you are doing is wearing 4 Tyres out not 2. :wink:


----------



## teemyob

*Good Car Tyres*

These are excellent car tyres for those who are considering them.


----------



## LittleGreyCat

*Camper Tyres*

Not had much luck locating camper tyres.

I am told by my usual tyre company that the Michelin Agilis camper tyres (215/70 R15) are currently not available in the UK and Michelin do not have a date for further stock.

I have just ordered two VANCO CAMPER 8PR 215/70 R15 109R tyres from tyrewizard.co.uk and am assuming they will turn up as they were reported as in stock and they have processed the order.

After that, find someone to fit them 

These will be going on the front and the older tyres going on the back.
If I ever wear out a front set of tyres I will possibly move the rear tyres to the front to get the most tread wear but the jury is still out.
I think that most camper tyres time out instead of wearing out.

With regard to front and rear tyre blowouts and over/understeer.

IMHO oversteer is not always easier to control than understeer.

In theory for understeer you should just let go of everything - feet off the pedals hands of the wheel - and a FWD vehicle should self correct.
This does of course assume that the understeer is due to too much power at the front wheels.
If you are going too fast for the corner then with understeer you plough straight on.

I have always found that oversteer is easier to control as you just ignore where the back wheels are and keep pointing the front wheels where you want to go.
Drifting sideways also scrubs off a lot of speed quite quickly.
Finally when you manage to correct oversteer your front wheels are still hopefully on your side of the road, and the rear comes back in to join you.
With understeer when you regain control your front is generally on the wrong side of the road.

Then again I learned to drive in the era of cross ply tyres, on a car which provided very controllable oversteer.

I think some of the thinking behind the configuring for understeer is that people don't generally learn how to control oversteer these days and an inexperienced driver can potentially get into more trouble with oversteer than understeer.

Noted also that the considerations are different for large top heavy vans than for passenger cars.

I have had a couple of rear wheel punctures and in one case (Volvo 7 Series Estate) I didn't even notice until I slowed down and turned right. No change in the feel of the vehicle at all.

My personal view is that I feel safer if I can control the steering and think that a front wheel blowout could seriously compromise this.
However I am basing most of my opinons on my formative years of driving where cars and tyres were much less well engineered than the latest models.

Cheers

LGC


----------



## BillCreer

Hi,
I don't think that the tyre manufacturers are telling you that a back end slide is easier to control than a front wheel one.

I think they are talking about worst case scenarios where the driver becomes more of a passenger than than a driver.

In the worst case scenario when that back end goes you will spin down the road totally out of control.

In the worst case scenario when the front end goes you just plough straight on and with things like ABS, hopefully, you'll almost automatically regain control.

It doesn't stop me from doing what you do thought and it doesn't mean that rear wheel slides in a rear wheel drive car aren't good fun.


----------



## Sprinta

studded tyres are useful on occasion up North (very,very North) :lol:


----------



## HMFIC

*Vanco Tyres*

Hi All. Very interesting subject and pretty close to my heart at the moment.

I was off on a weeks long trip down the east coast then across to Corwall last week end (Bank holiday) It was raining cats and dogs and I was travelling at 15mph down a 20% hill near Whitby.(Blame the TOM TOM for the route)

In short as I was going down the hill and turning to the left at the same time when the MH started to slide across to the opposite side of the road. I eventually stopped when I hit a car on the opposite side of the road and completely wiping the side of it away.

The damage to the MH is the side wing and bumper including all lights etc.

No one was hurt thankfully except my ego and my pride and joy MH

It is booked in this week to get an estimate to see what it will cost to repair (through the insurance)as it is an A class and all fibreglass at the front end

The tyres on the MH are Vanco and are inflated to 60psi (not sure if that is correct as I cannot find any info about that except sticker which was in the MH from the previous owner.

I have checked the age of the tyres and they are around 6-61/2years old no cracking on the walls and the tread is still good, Just had them check at a tyre garage who's only comment was the age of them.

In short I am looking to replace all 6 tyres with new (twin wheel at rear as opposed to twin axel on the rear.

My questions are simple I am looking for new tyres which are both good for winter and summer. I very very rarely use the van in snow if at all however I also want tyres which are quiet, the present Vanco tyres are ok'ish and when driving on a reasonably good road surface are OK but would like something which may be quieter.

Any suggestions will be appreciated

Paul


----------



## teemyob

*Re: Vanco Tyres*



HMFIC said:


> Hi All. Very interesting subject and pretty close to my heart at the moment.
> 
> I was off on a weeks long trip down the east coast then across to Corwall last week end (Bank holiday) It was raining cats and dogs and I was travelling at 15mph down a 20% hill near Whitby.(Blame the TOM TOM for the route)
> 
> In short as I was going down the hill and turning to the left at the same time when the MH started to slide across to the opposite side of the road. I eventually stopped when I hit a car on the opposite side of the road and completely wiping the side of it away.
> 
> The damage to the MH is the side wing and bumper including all lights etc.
> 
> No one was hurt thankfully except my ego and my pride and joy MH
> 
> It is booked in this week to get an estimate to see what it will cost to repair (through the insurance)as it is an A class and all fibreglass at the front end
> 
> The tyres on the MH are Vanco and are inflated to 60psi (not sure if that is correct as I cannot find any info about that except sticker which was in the MH from the previous owner.
> 
> I have checked the age of the tyres and they are around 6-61/2years old no cracking on the walls and the tread is still good, Just had them check at a tyre garage who's only comment was the age of them.
> 
> In short I am looking to replace all 6 tyres with new (twin wheel at rear as opposed to twin axel on the rear.
> 
> My questions are simple I am looking for new tyres which are both good for winter and summer. I very very rarely use the van in snow if at all however I also want tyres which are quiet, the present Vanco tyres are ok'ish and when driving on a reasonably good road surface are OK but would like something which may be quieter.
> 
> Any suggestions will be appreciated
> 
> Paul


Hello Paul,

If you let me have your tyres sizes I will see what is available that I can recommend.

TM


----------



## HMFIC

Hi I will be home this coming weekend and will let you know


----------



## teemyob

*PM*



HMFIC said:


> Hi I will be home this coming weekend and will let you know


Best remind me by PM

TM


----------



## LittleGreyCat

*Re: Vanco Tyres*



HMFIC said:


> Hi All. Very interesting subject and pretty close to my heart at the moment.
> 
> I was off on a weeks long trip down the east coast then across to Corwall last week end (Bank holiday) It was raining cats and dogs and I was travelling at 15mph down a 20% hill near Whitby.(Blame the TOM TOM for the route)
> 
> In short as I was going down the hill and turning to the left at the same time when the MH started to slide across to the opposite side of the road. I eventually stopped when I hit a car on the opposite side of the road and completely wiping the side of it away.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Paul


Sympathy.

Out of interest, was the problem that every time you braked the wheels locked up and you just slid out of control?

Reason I ask is that I had a very similar problem with a FWD car many years ago on a steep icy hill going down into Wirksworth.
Evrey time I braked the wheels just locked up and I slid down the camber of the hill completely out of control.
At low speeds there is not enough grip for ABS to detect that the wheels are losing traction - the system just thinks the car is stopped.
Result - a sledge.
The car was also automatic and so if I idled in bottom gear the front wheels pushed me forwards as the rear wheels locked.
So I was either being pushed forwards or sliding with locked wheels.

I managed to survive by changing into neutral so there was nothing pushing the wheels round and then steering to the centre of the road, braking a bit, steering a bit etc. - essentially coasting as slowly as possible and implementing a manual version of ABS.

I have had similar experiences with a rear wheel drive Volvo Estate Automatic - you either slide or the engine at tickover pushes you forward. Only way I have found to control this is again to engage neutral and then brake gently. In a manual you would just depress the clutch - much easier.

Long story, but if this in any way describes your problem then it may be that your tyres are not to blame and therefore do not necessarily need replacing.

Cheers

LGC


----------



## LittleGreyCat

*Vanco Camper 215/70 R15 CP*

My two Vanco Camper 215/70 R15 CP have just turned up via CityLink.

From TyreWizard they cost £115.22 each and delivery was £13.

Total £243.44 for the pair.

Now I have to check round for fitting.
I have a quote for £24 per tyre to fit and swap tryes front and back so I just need to check this against a few others and hopefully I will be sorted.

This is way cheaper, BTW, than the prices quoted by Kwik Fit.

Cheers

LGC

P.S. These are not M&S tyres but they do have a picture of a camper on the sidewall.
Max. inflation 69 PSI in response to earlier poster who was inflating to 60 PSI.


----------



## teemyob

*Re: Vanco Camper 215/70 R15 CP*



LittleGreyCat said:


> My two Vanco Camper 215/70 R15 CP have just turned up via CityLink.
> 
> From TyreWizard they cost £115.22 each and delivery was £13.
> 
> Total £243.44 for the pair.
> 
> Now I have to check round for fitting.
> I have a quote for £24 per tyre to fit and swap tryes front and back so I just need to check this against a few others and hopefully I will be sorted.
> 
> This is way cheaper, BTW, than the prices quoted by Kwik Fit.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> LGC
> 
> P.S. These are not M&S tyres but they do have a picture of a camper on the sidewall.
> Max. inflation 69 PSI in response to earlier poster who was inflating to 60 PSI.


£24 is expensive to change a tyre. I only pay a tenner. balanced and new valve. £12 for over 3500kGs


----------



## LittleGreyCat

*Re: Vanco Camper 215/70 R15 CP*



teemyob said:


> LittleGreyCat said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two Vanco Camper 215/70 R15 CP have just turned up via CityLink.
> 
> From TyreWizard they cost £115.22 each and delivery was £13.
> 
> Total £243.44 for the pair.
> 
> Now I have to check round for fitting.
> I have a quote for £24 per tyre to fit and swap tryes front and back so I just need to check this against a few others and hopefully I will be sorted.
> 
> This is way cheaper, BTW, than the prices quoted by Kwik Fit.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> LGC
> 
> P.S. These are not M&S tyres but they do have a picture of a camper on the sidewall.
> Max. inflation 69 PSI in response to earlier poster who was inflating to 60 PSI.
> 
> 
> 
> £24 is expensive to change a tyre. I only pay a tenner. balanced and new valve. £12 for over 3500kGs
Click to expand...

The deal included swapping front to back.
I checked with ATS and they wanted £30 per wheel, so it seemed reasonable.
Took them about 45 minutes so £48 didn't seem exorbitant.

Do you use a national chain?
If so, which one?

Cheers

LGC


----------



## teemyob

*Re: Vanco Camper 215/70 R15 CP*



LittleGreyCat said:


> teemyob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LittleGreyCat said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two Vanco Camper 215/70 R15 CP have just turned up via CityLink.
> 
> From TyreWizard they cost £115.22 each and delivery was £13.
> 
> Total £243.44 for the pair.
> 
> Now I have to check round for fitting.
> I have a quote for £24 per tyre to fit and swap tryes front and back so I just need to check this against a few others and hopefully I will be sorted.
> 
> This is way cheaper, BTW, than the prices quoted by Kwik Fit.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> LGC
> 
> P.S. These are not M&S tyres but they do have a picture of a camper on the sidewall.
> Max. inflation 69 PSI in response to earlier poster who was inflating to 60 PSI.
> 
> 
> 
> £24 is expensive to change a tyre. I only pay a tenner. balanced and new valve. £12 for over 3500kGs
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The deal included swapping front to back.
> I checked with ATS and they wanted £30 per wheel, so it seemed reasonable.
> Took them about 45 minutes so £48 didn't seem exorbitant.
> 
> Do you use a national chain?
> If so, which one?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> LGC
Click to expand...

Hello,

I use a bunch of Independents .

Paul Symes Tyres HYDE 
Ashton Tyres (Poynton) for Commercial Tyres
MiniMax STOCKPORT
NTS Northwest - STOCKPORT

I have known Ashton, MimiMax and NTS for years. In-Fact the guy who owns NTS put my first set of tyres on my Orange marina when I was 17!. He worked for National then.

Paul Symes is a customer of mine.

But, they all charge a tenner a tyre as i said with the exception of Ashton who charge a bit more for commercial stuff. £12, so that is half what you have been charged.

I Usually Supply my own tyres. But I did use Kwik Fit last year for Our Daughters car as they had a good price on Conti's. And there service was 100%.

TM


----------



## Mrplodd

I needed a couple of new tyres earlier in the year (age related crazing)

I was unable to obtain Michelin Agilis CP but was able to get Agilis C 

The odd thing was that both the CP and C tyres have identical speed and load indexing. :? 

So my question is why should I pay the (considerable) extra for CP tyres when there is no difference in speed or load rating ?? the C tyre is obviously made to carry the same load at the same speed. I accept that the CP tyre has "stronger?" sidewalls but where is the advantage if there is no difference in what speed I can run at or what load I can carry ??? (this is a serious not rhetorical question) if thye C tyre had a lower load or speed index then I could understand, but they dont.

I now have a pair of Agilis "C" tyres on the rear and have done a good few thousand miles. I run very close to my max permitted rear axle load which is bang on the max load rating of the tyre !! I have been to the south of France where it was VERY hot and and done a good few miles on the motorways. 

At the end of the (motorway) trip of about 300 miles non stop I checked the tyres all round, theye were certainly warm to the touch but there was no noticable difference between front and rear (Vanco fronts Agilis rears with identical speed an load ratings on all 4) even though the axle loadings are very different, 

To the best of my knowledge, the rear tyres are still in one piece doing the job of keeping my (rear) end up!!!


----------



## LittleGreyCat

Mrplodd said:


> So my question is why should I pay the (considerable) extra for CP tyres when there is no difference in speed or load rating ?? the C tyre is obviously made to carry the same load at the same speed. I accept that the CP tyre has "stronger?" sidewalls but where is the advantage if there is no difference in what speed I can run at or what load I can carry ??? (this is a serious not rhetorical question) if thye C tyre had a lower load or speed index then I could understand, but they dont.


My understanding is that the difference is not when you are moving but when you are standing still.

Normal useage for a van tyre is loads of miles nearly every day. The tyre is continually flexing, heating up, cooling down.

A camper tyre can spend a long time supporting the weight of the camper but not moving, so the tyre has to expect to be deformed at the same point (bottom of the tyre) for long periods without losing resilience and flexibility.

In extreme cases the tyre could be in the same static position for ten months or more before the annual outing over the summer.

So allegedly the side walls and the compound should be different from a normal commercial tyre to cope with the different conditions.

However the cynical may suspect that the addition of a 'camper' designation is little more than a charge for the extra detailing on the sidewall. It would be good to have details from the manufacturers which demonstrate a clear difference, and some testing to compare performance between the tyres when under static load for a period of six months or more.

I do recall that the advice for taking a car off the road for six months included jacking up on blocks and removing the tyres but I don't know if this still applies with the latest tyre technology.

Cheers

LGC


----------



## Pusser

Off the topic a bit but i have already bemoaned the suspension of a BMW X3 and reported I wanted to get rid of it and stick with an old Toyota Granvia with camping upgrade. 

I was told that Continental tyres are ideal and put these on the X3 and it is simply a different car. I just cannot believe that tyres are not just tyres but a major thing in performance and comfort.

Fuel economy has improved and ride and handling are impossible to moan about.

So I am now keeping it and getting rid of the Toy Gran which has only done one trip over two days around the UK so ad appearing next month.

Bottom line is seek advice from users about tyres as there may be a different make that could change entirely your driving experience.

Cautionary and legal note: Tyres can go up as well as down. 8)


----------



## teemyob

*Cheap*



Pusser said:


> Off the topic a bit but i have already bemoaned the suspension of a BMW X3 and reported I wanted to get rid of it and stick with an old Toyota Granvia with camping upgrade.
> 
> I was told that Continental tyres are ideal and put these on the X3 and it is simply a different car. I just cannot believe that tyres are not just tyres but a major thing in performance and comfort.
> 
> Fuel economy has improved and ride and handling are impossible to moan about.
> 
> So I am now keeping it and getting rid of the Toy Gran which has only done one trip over two days around the UK so ad appearing next month.
> 
> Bottom line is seek advice from users about tyres as there may be a different make that could change entirely your driving experience.
> 
> Cautionary and legal note: Tyres can go up as well as down. 8)


Tut,

When I started reading, I thought a cheap X3 was going to be up for grabs.

TM


----------



## Pusser

*Re: Cheap*



teemyob said:


> When I started reading, I thought a cheap X3 was going to be up for grabs.TM


I do have a Granvia N reg  with brand new campervan stuff inside and new tyres and bendy wipers. New timing chain, serviced and hot
wax oiled, new port pottie. 8) And brand new Sony radio\cd with USB.

Ideal for a couple wanting a single vehicle for everything.


----------

