# Covid vaccine, will YOU have it??



## Mrplodd

Just curious as to who would, and would not have the new vaccine if offered. 

I am happy to be first in line (after health care workers etc) Hiw about you??


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## dghr272

Yep count me in as someone who was required to shield.

Terry


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## raynipper

By the time I actually get a choice it will be well tried and tested. So by then yes.

Ray.


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## erneboy

Yes.


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## Ozzyjohn

Yes, if and when I reach the pointy end of the queue.


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## barryd

Yeah no bother. Ill try anything me. 

Not sure where I would be on the list at 54 but also a bit of a lardy git and my lung function has never been great. Im happy to wait though, there are far more needier and more at risk than myself.


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## aldra

Yes certainly 

I’m waiting for blood test results to see if I still have antibodies, but sadly it’s now 7 months since I was so sick so I prob haven’t, although I still have long Covid symptoms , both feet are without sensation, which I’m told is common nerve damage, although I haven’t been told why or how long it will last, no longer breathless but still tire soon , struggling with inflammatory arthritis as Im reluctant to go back on immunosuppressants

I couldn’t volunteer to give blood plasma as tests were not available at the end of March and you needed to have tested positive for Covid to volunteer , or been hospitalised

So as someone who has met and survived Covid, just about, I would urge all who have the chance of a vaccine to take it 

It’s a horrific disease if you are in anyway vulnerable and it leaves it’s Mark a long time after you survive it

That’s if you do survive it

Sandra


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## bc109

Serpently. Even if the queue is very long. Don't know when it will be available in Spain.

Bill


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## patp

Yes, I would. I have asthma but am otherwise well. 

Barry, I think, if it is offered, you should go for it. You tick a several of the "at risk" boxes.

I hadn't realised, Bill, that it was not available in mainland Europe.


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## JanHank

Yes.

I want to start living again before it’s too late.

The flu jab has protected me for the past 36 years so I am all for it.


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## dghr272

patp said:


> Yes, I would. I have asthma but am otherwise well.
> 
> Barry, I think, if it is offered, you should go for it. You tick a several of the "at risk" boxes.
> 
> I hadn't realised, Bill, that it was not available in mainland Europe.


WHAT? Is it the music sounds he makes that's the issue ?
Can't see any vaccine changing that outcome. :surprise:

Terry


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## H1-GBV

I wonder how many people responded to the Government's Covid Consultation Document.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...s-to-support-the-rollout-of-covid-19-vaccines

Here is one paragraph regarding the medicine itself which may interest you:

_What regulation 345 does, therefore, is transpose into UK law a requirement of EU law that key actors in the medicines supply chain *cannot generally be sued in the civil courts for the consequences resulting from the use of an unlicensed product*, or a new use of a licensed product, that a national licensing authority is recommending in order to deal with certain specific health threats._

And one about who might give you the jab:

_It will also be apparent in what we say about workforce expansion that someone other than a registered healthcare professional may actually be administering unlicensed vaccines - and as a basic issue of fairness, we think they should benefit from the same immunity from civil liability as a registered healthcare professional who is performing the same role, if the person who is not a healthcare professional is following one of the proposed new protocols._

IF you didn't participate please don't waste your time reading it too thoroughly:

_The consultation period will run until the end of Friday 18 September 2020._

Gordon


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## dghr272

H1-GBV said:


> I wonder how many people responded to the Government's Covid Consultation Document.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...s-to-support-the-rollout-of-covid-19-vaccines
> 
> Here is one paragraph regarding the medicine itself which may interest you:
> 
> _*What regulation 345 does, therefore, is transpose into UK law a requirement of EU law *that key actors in the medicines supply chain *cannot generally be sued in the civil courts for the consequences resulting from the use of an unlicensed product*, or a new use of a licensed product, that a national licensing authority is recommending in order to deal with certain specific health threats._
> 
> And one about who might give you the jab:
> 
> _It will also be apparent in what we say about workforce expansion that someone other than a registered healthcare professional may actually be administering unlicensed vaccines - and as a basic issue of fairness, we think they should benefit from the same immunity from civil liability as a registered healthcare professional who is performing the same role, if the person who is not a healthcare professional is following one of the proposed new protocols._
> 
> IF you didn't participate please don't waste your time reading it too thoroughly:
> 
> _The consultation period will run until the end of Friday 18 September 2020._
> 
> Gordon


But but, we now have control of our laws therefore why are we now being constrained by the bad old EU laws? >


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## H1-GBV

I'm not worried about that (do we still have to abide by EU rules during the transition period?)

I remember thalidomide and the fight which parents had to make in order to get support for their children (one colleague only had arm buds: I was very impressed by the way that he marked books using just a pen in his mouth).

I WILL be having the jab. However, I will also be thinking about how successful they have been in organising PPE and how good the training has been for T&T staff.

Gordon


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## barryd

I guess you have to trust the team that developed the vaccine who seem incredible as do the Oxford team. However, the lowest common denominator in the chain from development to it ending up in your arm is the government.  I would liken it to purchasing a really expensive laptop then relying on My Hermes to deliver it.  Ill still be taking it though if offered.


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## aldra

So will I 

Having survived Covid

I’d rather not go their again 

Sandra


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## ChrisandJohn

Yes, I'd have it, but given that we don't know how good the protection would be, or how long it will last, I think I'd still be very cautious for a while. I could end up still pretty much isolating, which might seem a bit of a waste of a good vaccine. 

Chris


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## Glandwr

I would also although i am not looking forward to it having a phobia of needles. Slightly concerned also that whenever there are clips of people receiving the shots they seem to pump a serious amount of it into your arm.:surprise:


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## jiwawa

Yes, I'll be saying yes when I get the chance. Tho as Chris says, I'll probably be keeping myself apart for a while anyway.

I was saying to my sister today that I seem to have lost a shed-load of confidence since this thing began. Fingers crossed I can get it back.


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## raynipper

We have two family and friends who keep banging on about it being a big fake and only making money for the pharmaceutical companies. But no amount of evidence hundreds of thousands have died with convince them otherwise.

Ray.


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## barryd

raynipper said:


> We have two family and friends who keep banging on about it being a big fake and only making money for the pharmaceutical companies. But no amount of evidence hundreds of thousands have died with convince them otherwise.
> 
> Ray.


Just a shot in the dark Ray but are these the family and friends you have mentioned who are big Brexit and Trump supporters by any chance?


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## raynipper

barryd said:


> Just a shot in the dark Ray but are these the family and friends you have mentioned who are big Brexit and Trump supporters by any chance?


Yup. And both live outside the UK.:crying:

Ray.


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## H1-GBV

ANOTHER vaccine announced: 95% effective and works well with older folk. Also, can be stored in a fridge for 30 days. GREAT NEWS!

UNFORTUNATELY UK has not pre-ordered any.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54902908

Gordon


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## barryd

H1-GBV said:


> ANOTHER vaccine announced: 95% effective and works well with older folk. Also, can be stored in a fridge for 30 days. GREAT NEWS!
> 
> UNFORTUNATELY UK has not pre-ordered any.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54902908
> 
> Gordon


Why was it not on the list I wonder? The fact that it can be stored in a fridge for 30 days is a massive advantage over the BioNTech vaccine we have ordered as the logistics of distribution of their vaccine will be a complete nightmare in comparison. Government backs the wrong horse yet again.


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## erneboy

God forbid that I might seem sympathetic towards this regime, but in the race for a vaccine I think they backed most, if not all of the horses which seems very wise to me.


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## dghr272

barryd said:


> Why was it not on the list I wonder? The fact that it can be stored in a fridge for 30 days is a massive advantage over the BioNTech vaccine we have ordered as the logistics of distribution of their vaccine will be a complete nightmare in comparison. Government backs the wrong horse yet again.


They couldn't back it as it was offered by an EU consortium to cover as many bases as possible. Our Regime new better as usual and could do better on their exceptional own obviously. So once again they actually lost some control as opposed to taking back control and it's likely there was no cronyistic opportunities for any of their mates.

Terry


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## barryd

dghr272 said:


> They couldn't back it as it was offered by an EU consortium to cover as many bases as possible. Our Regime new better as usual and could do better on their exceptional own obviously. So once again they actually lost some control as opposed to taking back control and it's likely there was no cronyistic opportunities for any of their mates.
> 
> Terry


Ah right. So we can blame that on Brexit as well then. The gift that keeps on giving. Sorry taking away.


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## erneboy

dghr272 said:


> They couldn't back it as it was offered by an EU consortium to cover as many bases as possible. Our Regime new better as usual and could do better on their exceptional own obviously. So once again they actually lost some control as opposed to taking back control and it's likely there was no cronyistic opportunities for any of their mates.
> 
> Terry


Ah, thanks, I didn't know that Terry.


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## dghr272

dghr272 said:


> barryd said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why was it not on the list I wonder? The fact that it can be stored in a fridge for 30 days is a massive advantage over the BioNTech vaccine we have ordered as the logistics of distribution of their vaccine will be a complete nightmare in comparison. Government backs the wrong horse yet again.
> 
> 
> 
> They couldn't back it as it was offered by an EU consortium to cover as many bases as possible. Our Regime new better as usual and could do better on their exceptional own obviously. So once again they actually lost some control as opposed to taking back control and it's likely there was no cronyistic opportunities for any of their mates.
> 
> Terry
Click to expand...




erneboy said:


> dghr272 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They couldn't back it as it was offered by an EU consortium to cover as many bases as possible. Our Regime new better as usual and could do better on their exceptional own obviously. So once again they actually lost some control as opposed to taking back control and it's likely there was no cronyistic opportunities for any of their mates.
> 
> Terry
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, thanks, I didn't know that Terry.
Click to expand...

You can imagine the Gammon response if they'd joined in the project. It's nothing new either, sure they did the same with the sourcing of ventilators as they wanted to spend millions targeting their mates.

Terry


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## aldra

If the vaccine is available

I’d be the first in the queue 

After those who need it more than me 

I’m protected from flu... as far as possible, protected from pneumonia, from shingles , polio and from childhood diseases and many others thanks to modern science 

So why not from Covid?

Yep we will beat this as we have beaten 

so much more

And one day WE WILL add cancer to the list

Heart disease and so much more 

Special people are working non stop on it 

Sandra


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## HermanHymer

As an alternative in the meantime, anyone popping zinc and/or vitamin d3? For an interesting analysis of potential of these 2 supplements look up Dr John Campbell on YouTube. Makes you think, worth a punt! What has anyone got to lose?


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## aldra

We are

Vit D high dose, will look up the author of the book an American doctor 

Alberts consultant said his Vit D was low, most cancer patients are, our doctor did not prescribe it said we could buy it online

Mine was also low as diagnosed by an endocrinologist, Vit D very high short term dose prescribed dropping to a maintenance dose, first test showed adequate levels, i taken the Vit D, spent two months in Europe , so the Gp cancelled the prescription, so l continued myself

If my Vit D falls I suffer night cramps which reminds me to take it 

If it’s low according to recommended dosage it’s very low as to be almost useless unless to prevent Rickets in children

And Vit D is a hormone not a vitamin

Sandra


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## Christine600

I'll be hurrying to get in line for the vaccine. Hope to get it in time for Easter. 



I guess I'll be pretty far back in the prioritized line though.


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## ChrisandJohn

aldra said:


> We are
> 
> Vit D high dose, will look up the author of the book an American doctor
> 
> Alberts consultant said his Vit D was low, most cancer patients are, our doctor did not prescribe it said we could buy it online
> 
> Mine was also low as diagnosed by an endocrinologist, Vit D very high short term dose prescribed dropping to a maintenance dose, first test showed adequate levels, i taken the Vit D, spent two months in Europe , so the Gp cancelled the prescription, so l continued myself
> 
> If my Vit D falls I suffer night cramps which reminds me to take it
> 
> If it's low according to recommended dosage it's very low as to be almost useless unless to prevent Rickets in children
> 
> And Vit D is a hormone not a vitamin
> 
> Sandra


I've been taking high dose vitamin D3 for about 18 months, along with co-factors Vit K2 and magnesium. I've had hardly any leg cramps since then too.

Chris


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## Penquin

We take 1000iu of Vit D daily as there is considerable evidence that low Vit D is very common in those with the most severe forms of CoVid, those in ITU are the base of the survey but it has been peer reviewed and is of a sufficient size to be significant.

Costs us about £5 a month, we use Healthspan UK to supply it and do far so good.

It's a very small price to pay to potentially reduce serious outcomes as both of us have underlying comorbidity problems.

Use of Brufen type NSAID's is also linked to higher incidence of serious forms, so both of us have now swapped from Brufen to other forms of analgesia. Once again, this was done with medical advice.


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## jiwawa

HermanHymer said:


> As an alternative in the meantime, anyone popping zinc and/or vitamin d3? For an interesting analysis of potential of these 2 supplements look up Dr John Campbell on YouTube. Makes you think, worth a punt! What has anyone got to lose?


Yes, along with magnesium.


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## raynipper

And now mouthwash is supposed to kill it. But the jury is still out on this.

Ray.


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## Penquin

raynipper said:


> And now mouthwash is supposed to kill it. But the jury is still out on this.
> 
> Ray.


*JOKE ALERT*

But according to the SuperMedic Mr D Trump, neat bleach is best.... :grin2:

*REMINDER I AM JOKING, DO NOT TRY USING BLEACH AS A MOUTHWASH.....,,*. :surprise:


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## raynipper

From the horses mouth............................

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/11/...navirus-within-30-seconds-in-laboratory-test/

Ray.


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## jiwawa

raynipper said:


> From the horses mouth............................
> 
> https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/11/...navirus-within-30-seconds-in-laboratory-test/
> 
> Ray.


I see in the comments below "Rather than mouthwash why not have a few straight cask strength whiskies of over 60% alcohol by volume with no mixers..."


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## patp

I have been diagnosed with a Zinc deficiency. It took massive doses three times daily to bring it up to normal. My doctor then stopped the prescription. I had that fall which resulted in a non healing injury and still could not get Zinc prescribed for longer than a month. My doctor is obsessed with controlling prescriptions. It seems too risky to go and have an appointment to do battle over a Zinc prescription so I now buy my own.
We do get quite a lot of fresh air and sunshine so I take Vitamin D on an ad hoc basis i.e. when I remember


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## raynipper

jiwawa said:


> I see in the comments below "Rather than mouthwash why not have a few straight cask strength whiskies of over 60% alcohol by volume with no mixers..."


I can't stand either Jean.

Ray.


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## powerplus

i would take it

i have had shoulder and neck pain for a few months now and about 3 or 4 weeks ago my toes started to get numb and swollen with inflammation and mauve under the skin

dock thinks its late covid but i have not felt that bad this year so went for a covid test and that was negative so next week im having the antibody test to see if i had covid in the past 

big problem now in the uk is that you have to blood test you have to book it and it was 2 weeks before i could it


barry


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## aldra

Yes I have the same, my feet and toes went numb when I had Covid and have remained so, seven months later

They are numb and tingling, worse at night , I started high dose Vit D a few weeks ago and I feel more sensation in my feet returning, but that may be coincidence, also told it was long Covid 

I also have shoulder pain, which causes my arms and hands to go dead with pins and needles at night when I must be constricting the nerve supply, butt that could be due to inflammatory arthritis

My recent blood test is positive for Covid antibodies ,7 months later 

Sandra


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## powerplus

hi sandra

i will see what the outcome is the problem here now is getting an appointment with the GP

and end up with a telephone consultation as long as you can get past the receptionist

i also have arthritis in my back and neck but wander if the covid is to blame and in someways hope it is

barry


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## aldra

Barry, I registered for the government survey

I’m tested more or less weekly for Covid, blood tests every few months

I’m interested now in giving plasma whilst I’ve got antibodies, my daughter , a nurse ,is checking out how I go about it

But if I can help someone I will, I was so very, very sick

I wouldn’t wish it on anyone

I was like a body without a skeleton , and just collapsed if I tried to stand, I couldn’t eat, could hardly drink

I just wanted to sleep, and sleeping had no idea that I could hardly breathe, and didn’t really care 

It was hard for Albert who was also unwell, unsure with no backup from the GP 

And we were both afraid of hospital, so many were dying there late March 

So I was lucky, and so it seems was Albert, cancer, COPD, he never became so unwell, but he too has antibodies in his blood test

Sandra


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## Ingo Sundowner

With Pfizer dealing with their compensation claims all over the planet, due to botched vaccines (50m $$$ in Africa alone). Plus a survival rate of 95.5% for the virus, i decided to let you all into the queue before me 😁😁😁
BUT, as I bet my last penny on needing an occupation


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## Ingo Sundowner

With Pfizer dealing with their compensation claims all over the planet, due to botched vaccines (50m $$$ in Africa alone). Plus a survival rate of 95.5% for the virus, i decided to let you all into the queue before me 😁😁😁
BUT, as I bet my last penny on needing a vaccination passport or similar to travel abroad I'll have to have it just to get away 🤣🤣🤣


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## patp

Thanks - we'll let you know......


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## Penquin

The eminently sensible idea of a "vaccine passport" akin to the rabies pet passport, where proof of having received the two doses of the vaccine could be entered into the recipients passport, along with the Batch number and perhaps a Batch label stamped and signed by a traceable professional has been pooh poohed by the regime when mentioned so far " there are no plans for such a record".

To me, it makes total sense and could reduce the bureaucracy of travelling in the forseeable future,

BUT

the British Government does not seem to have kept, or be keeping any records of who had what, when...

Now that some people, albeit only a very small number, have received their second dose, is it too late to be able to establish such a proven record ?

To me, this is a missed opportunity when Britain COULD have been truly "world beating" and I suspect once the idea became known, other countries would grasp the advantages and simplicity of such a scheme.

Yes, forgeries might have been possible - hence the idea of a bar code linking to a National database with name, date of vaccination and Batch number would have reduced such a likelihood. All for one page in a passport.....

Surely it is worth further consideration, although it is likely to be suddenly introduced at a very late stage based on current experience of Government action. 😢


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## rayc

Penquin said:


> BUT
> 
> the British Government does not seem to have kept, or be keeping any records of who had what, when...
> 
> Now that some people, albeit only a very small number, have received their second dose, is it too late to be able to establish such a proven record ?


Of course there are records. I can go online and check my medical history, including that I had the flu vaccine in October last and what type it was and that I was wearing a mask and had given my permission to receive it. I can check the results of my annual blood test including the result of each parameter. Boris may not have the actual record of each and every recipient on his PC but I am sure the NHS knows.


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## bilbaoman

Wont be a problem for a while for the ones of us living in the Eu due to slow speed of the vaccine roll out


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## jiwawa

rayc said:


> Of course there are records. I can go online and check my medical history, including that I had the flu vaccine in October last and what type it was and that I was wearing a mask and had given my permission to receive it. I can check the results of my annual blood test including the result of each parameter. Boris may not have the actual record of each and every recipient on his PC but I am sure the NHS knows.


Really? I had no idea this was possible.

And actually, I'm not sure I'm happy about it considering how easy it is (apparently) for folk to hack into systems.

Is this throughout the UK?


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## dghr272

jiwawa said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there are records. I can go online and check my medical history, including that I had the flu vaccine in October last and what type it was and that I was wearing a mask and had given my permission to receive it. I can check the results of my annual blood test including the result of each parameter. Boris may not have the actual record of each and every recipient on his PC but I am sure the NHS knows.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? I had no idea this was possible.
> 
> And actually, I'm not sure I'm happy about it considering how easy it is (apparently) for folk to hack into systems.
> 
> Is this throughout the UK?
Click to expand...

Our GP uses the EMIS system I can order repeat prescriptions with their app, but the access Rayc mentions is blocked, when I queried it with the surgery over a year ago they quoted data protection reasons. So all I can do is order repeat meds, I'm happy with that as it saves a visit or trying to get through on the phone.

https://www.emishealth.com/products/emis-mobile/

Terry


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## Penquin

rayc said:


> Of course there are records. I can go online and check my medical history, including that I had the flu vaccine in October last and what type it was and that I was wearing a mask and had given my permission to receive it. I can check the results of my annual blood test including the result of each parameter. Boris may not have the actual record of each and every recipient on his PC but I am sure the NHS knows.


Then why is it that there are numerous reports that the type of vaccine is NOT being recorded,

Why also is it that your GP has NO RECORD of whether you have had a CoVid test since Superdrug and Boots have no link to submitting such information and GP's are IN NO WAY involved in the test and trace system, they cannot give you a test or find out if you have had one ?

This is unique, nothing like it has occurred before, the GP's are completely out of the loop.

These concerns were first aired when the second dose delivery date was changed from 3 weeks to 12 without any scientific support and against the advice of the vaccine manufacturers and today, the WHO. It was said that as no records were being kept of what type of vaccine, they could not be sure for the second one.

As regards the second dose, it has been admitted by HMG that there is no way of tracing what vaccine someone has had, merely that hey we're invited for a vaccine on a specific date and time.

If you don't believe me (and frankly I found it incredulous when I was told by my GP daughter in confirmation of media reports), ask your GP whether they have such records of the test and trace and the CoVid vaccination systems.


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## rayc

jiwawa said:


> Really? I had no idea this was possible.
> 
> And actually, I'm not sure I'm happy about it considering how easy it is (apparently) for folk to hack into systems.
> 
> Is this throughout the UK?


I do not know as I believe it is up to each practice which elements are enabled. As an example I was able to book an appointment on line but since Covid that facility is 'greyed' out. It is based around the following link https://www.tpp-uk.com/products/systmonline

I recently assisted a lady who had fell in the street and the ambulance paramedic was able to access her medical record on a portable device from her name and DOB so I am sure that one way or another the NHS will have a record of covid vaccinations.


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## bilbaoman

The vaccine quoted in Gordons post is not EU but american and as been ordered by the UK and needs storing at minus 20c


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## rayc

Penquin said:


> Then why is it that there are numerous reports that the type of vaccine is NOT being recorded,
> 
> Why also is it that your GP has NO RECORD of whether you have had a CoVid test since Superdrug and Boots have no link to submitting such information and GP's are IN NO WAY involved in the test and trace system, they cannot give you a test or find out if you have had one ?
> 
> This is unique, nothing like it has occurred before, the GP's are completely out of the loop.
> 
> These concerns were first aired when the second dose delivery date was changed from 3 weeks to 12 without any scientific support and against the advice of the vaccine manufacturers and today, the WHO. It was said that as no records were being kept of what type of vaccine, they could not be sure for the second one.
> 
> As regards the second dose, it has been admitted by HMG that there is no way of tracing what vaccine someone has had, merely that hey we're invited for a vaccine on a specific date and time.
> 
> If you don't believe me (and frankly I found it incredulous when I was told by my GP daughter in confirmation of media reports), ask your GP whether they have such records.


Quite frankly there is not much I can say to that if its your belief. Each dose of the vaccine is given against a NHS number down to the batch number. Do you really believe that GP's who are paid to administer the vaccine will not have to record who they give it to? The flu jab is offered by invitation and my Doctor certainly knows who took up the offer and had the jab so I do not see any difference with Covid.


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## Penquin

rayc said:


> I do not know as I believe it is up to each practice which elements are enabled. As an example I was able to book an appointment on line but since Covid that facility is 'greyed' out. It is based around the following link https://www.tpp-uk.com/products/systmonline
> 
> I recently assisted a lady who had fell in the street and the ambulance paramedic was able to access her medical record on a portable device from her name and DOB so I am *sure that one way or another the NHS will have a record of covid vaccinations.*


Sadly Ray, being sure is not the same as having information.

Yes, ambulance Paramedics can access CERTAIN PARTS of the EMIs system, but not all, hospitals can also access the same records BUT BOTH OF THOSE ARE ONLY IF THE PERSON CONCERNED HAS GIVEN APPROVAL A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO. All patients were asked if they were willing to share their records about 10 or 12 years ago, consent had to be given.

You may also give approval for another specified person to receive such details eg other half, said n case you are unable to do so. That is all to do with Patient Confidentiality - a very important restriction for all working in the Health and Care systems.

This was at a time when it was intended that ALL medical records would be available on line through IT access. It was never completed as the costs were prohibitive and the system failed too many times.

But, that is NOT the same, YES your records will say you had A vaccination, but NOT whether it was Pfizer, AZ, Moderna or any of the others up for approval after completion of Stage 3 trials. No record is being kept of what vaccine you have received, what you get depends on what they have available - that was said in BBC Breakfast this morning.


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## Gretchibald

My mother , who is 90 and in a nursing home, had the first vaccine jag 2nd week in Dec. Today she has been diagnosed with the Covid virus. One jag obviously not much use then . She would have had the 2nd one but if you remember the gov. decided to use the 2nd jag date to give to others to have their 1st jag .


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## Penquin

For those in the EU

The EMA has given "conditional marketing approval" for these nod vaccine, the Moderna vaccine now has to be approved by the European Commission and individual states before it can be rolled out throughout Europe.

This vaccine only needs to be stored at -17C rather than the -70C required for the Pfizer vaccine.

I do not know if, once taken to room temperature, it is any more stable than the Pfizer vaccine. It has not yet been given approval in the U.K. AFAIK (but I suspect that is a "watch this space" statement.

https://www.connexionfrance.com/Fre...il&utm_term=0_9b5fbe85b4-afff1fc1f9-358495333


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## dghr272

Penquin said:


> rayc said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not know as I believe it is up to each practice which elements are enabled. As an example I was able to book an appointment on line but since Covid that facility is 'greyed' out. It is based around the following link https://www.tpp-uk.com/products/systmonline
> 
> I recently assisted a lady who had fell in the street and the ambulance paramedic was able to access her medical record on a portable device from her name and DOB so I am *sure that one way or another the NHS will have a record of covid vaccinations.*
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly Ray, being sure is not the same as having information.
> 
> Yes, ambulance Paramedics can access CERTAIN PARTS of the EMIs system, but not all, hospitals can also access the same records BUT BOTH OF THOSE ARE ONLY IF THE PERSON CONCERNED HAS GIVEN APPROVAL A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO. All patients were asked if they were willing to share their records about 10 or 12 years ago, consent had to be given.
> 
> You may also give approval for another specified person to receive such details eg other half, said n case you are unable to do so. That is all to do with Patient Confidentiality - a very important restriction for all working in the Health and Care systems.
> 
> This was at a time when it was intended that ALL medical records would be available on line through IT access. It was never completed as the costs were prohibitive and the system failed too many times.
> 
> But, that is NOT the same, YES your records will say you had A vaccination, but NOT whether it was Pfizer, AZ, Moderna or any of the others up for approval after completion of Stage 3 trials. No record is being kept of what vaccine you have received, what you get depends on what they have available - that was said in BBC Breakfast this morning.
Click to expand...

Correct Dave my better half was working in medical records for over twenty years, the nationwide medical records project was an IT disaster in terms of nationwide integrated records, the only good thing that came out of it was each person getting their own Health and Care number it was supposed to be the key for nationwide record retrieval.

Terry


----------



## rayc

Gretchibald said:


> My mother , who is 90 and in a nursing home, had the first vaccine jag 2nd week in Dec. Today she has been diagnosed with the Covid virus. One jag obviously not much use then . She would have had the 2nd one but if you remember the gov. decided to use the 2nd jag date to give to others to have their 1st jag .


This is how the Chief Medical Officer explained the 1 viz 2 policy. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-55553302


----------



## erneboy

Gretchibald said:


> My mother , who is 90 and in a nursing home, had the first vaccine jag 2nd week in Dec. Today she has been diagnosed with the Covid virus. One jag obviously not much use then . She would have had the 2nd one but if you remember the gov. decided to use the 2nd jag date to give to others to have their 1st jag .


Very sorry to hear that. I hope your mother recovers fully and quickly and that perhaps the vaccine may mean that she experiences only minor symptoms. Fingers crossed.


----------



## patp

Oh dear. That is a bit of a worry. But then any vaccine can fail as none of them are 100% effective. We just have to hope that we dodge the virus or that the immunity we have helps us to recover more quickly.

As for NHS records. It is almost dangerous that they are not available to medical professionals. We had a devil of a job getting life saving treatment for Chris after his heart attack because the paper records were en route from where he had his heart attack and medical intervention to our local NHS. In fact if he had lived alone he would not be here today! He could not walk across the room to reach the phone to call for help. All due to no one knowing what medication he was supposed to be getting as prescribed by the emergency team.


----------



## bilbaoman

Penquin said:


> For those in the EU
> 
> The EMA has given "conditional marketing approval" for these nod vaccine, the Moderna vaccine now has to be approved by the European Commission and individual states before it can be rolled out throughout Europe.
> 
> This vaccine only needs to be stored at -17C rather than the -70C required for the Pfizer vaccine.
> 
> I do not know if, once taken to room temperature, it is any more stable than the Pfizer vaccine. It has not yet been given approval in the U.K. AFAIK (but I suspect that is a "watch this space" statement.
> 
> https://www.connexionfrance.com/Fre...il&utm_term=0_9b5fbe85b4-afff1fc1f9-358495333


With the slow roll out so far we may well be asked to to store it in our freezers:frown2::frown2:


----------



## Penquin

Soon, but they won't say till after tomorrow's joint press event, individuals will be able to register for a vaccine, not book a slot, just register, presumably so popularity can be gauged. They say they currently have 560,000 doses and another 500, arriving this week.

So I will certainly register although it gives no exclusion from the 72h CoVid test required for entry to the UK.


----------



## dghr272

Gretchibald said:


> My mother , who is 90 and in a nursing home, had the first vaccine jag 2nd week in Dec. Today she has been diagnosed with the Covid virus. One jag obviously not much use then . She would have had the 2nd one but if you remember the gov. decided to use the 2nd jag date to give to others to have their 1st jag .


Hope there is some protection for your mum that will help her fight the virus, sad that the WHO guidelines that 28 days should be the max interval for Phizer jabs has been ignored by government.

We all have known that a very rapid vaccination program was going to be needed, just terrible that the government have again been taken by surprise and are already scrambling along, but still making big promises leaving folk like Alan seriously disappointed from a very personal perspective.

Sadly he's not alone, all are thoughts are with him I'm sure.

Terry


----------



## Penquin

I believe that there is a reconsideration of the 23 forms retired medics are required to complete before they can administer the vaccine.....

That is one piece of good news, but surely, drawing up and injecting is not a hard skill, after all nurses learn it very quickly as do diabetics on daily insulin injections...

Empire building ?


----------



## rayc

Penquin said:


> I believe that there is a reconsideration of the 23 forms retired medics are required to complete before they can administer the vaccine.....
> 
> That is one piece of good news, but surely, drawing up and injecting is not a hard skill, after all nurses learn it very quickly as do diabetics on daily insulin injections...
> 
> Empire building ?


----------



## Penquin

Very glad to hear that, he had mentioned it yesterday, but IMO the person that put such a list of topics together for using retired medics needs to be taught a few lessons in "Keeping things simple" - perhaps that should be a required course for Civil Servants (misnomer IMO, as their civility can never be measured or observed and their role as a servant seems unfulfilled 😷 )


----------



## bilbaoman

Penquin said:


> I believe that there is a reconsideration of the 23 forms retired medics are required to complete before they can administer the vaccine.....
> 
> That is one piece of good news, but surely, drawing up and injecting is not a hard skill, after all nurses learn it very quickly as do diabetics on daily insulin injections...
> 
> Empire building ?


I agree not an hard skill i have to give myself blood thining injections before i started i was frightened of injections now its like taking a tablet maybe they could make diy kits for people like myself


----------



## dghr272

Take a leisure centre on a Sunday, gather a team of pharmacists, dentists, vets, clerical officers and an MD or two to oversee any possible reactions.

Think out of the box and attack it like the war it is.

Or leave it to the government to turn into a shambles, why did it take it to be raised in parliament to raise concerns about the hoops volunteers were being asked to jump through?

Terry


----------



## DJMotorhomer

Yes


----------



## patp

I wonder if those 23 forms were all invented in Brussels? Just saying  .................


----------



## Pat-H

Hopefully by the time I'm elligable for the vaccine (2022) they will have moved back to following the medical advice on administering it.
And like others my GP only has limited medical information on me. 
It's not joined up.


----------



## raynipper

patp said:


> I wonder if those 23 forms were all invented in Brussels? Just saying  .................


But 'we' have taken back control Pat.

Ray.


----------



## erneboy

raynipper said:


> But 'we' have taken back control Pat.
> 
> Ray.


If any of it did come from the EU we can be sure that rather than seeking to minimise the impact the UK will, as always, have added to it.

People love to blame the EU for stuff. Perhaps they should look at how things get done in countries where EU regulations are not taken so seriously?

At the extreme end just look at how road works are done in the UK and compare what you see there to what you see in any other EU country. The same legislation applies yet the safety measures employed are so vastly different that unless you know you would never for a moment think that in every EU country what you see is one set of legislation being interpreted and put into action.

Grass cutting on motorways with a tractor or two following a couple of lorries rolling along with illuminated signs attached behind them in Europe or 5 or 6 miles of motorway coned off in the UK.

That's one simple example of the contrast.


----------



## Pat-H

Oh the British do love forms and red tape. Johnson has made much mileage out of his claims to reduce red tape and in doing so has generated even more.

In taking back control we have strangled ourselves with our closest trading partner. The UK chose to do that and we haven't really seen the impact of that yet.
More middle "men" with their costs, more delays and the costs of that. Ultimately paid for by the UK shoppers.


----------



## jiwawa

Gretchibald said:


> My mother , who is 90 and in a nursing home, had the first vaccine jag 2nd week in Dec. Today she has been diagnosed with the Covid virus. One jag obviously not much use then . She would have had the 2nd one but if you remember the gov. decided to use the 2nd jag date to give to others to have their 1st jag .


Very sorry to hear that Alan - a worrying time for the family. Hopefully her reaction to it will be mild. A friend's mother in her mid-90s in a care home had it months ago and it hardly phased her.

The roll-out of the vaccine is being treated as something of a continued trial of the vaccines, on the lookout for adverse effects, so it's surely not possible that they don't know who's had what.


----------



## Pat-H

jiwawa said:


> Very sorry to hear that Alan - a worrying time for the family. Hopefully her reaction to it will be mild. A friend's mother in her mid-90s in a care home had it months ago and it hardly phased her.
> 
> The roll-out of the vaccine is being treated as something of a continued trial of the vaccines, on the lookout for adverse effects, so it's surely not possible that they don't know who's had what.


Its only possible to know who's had what if you have the needed systems in place, the training to operate them and somebody to manage it.

It's very likely, based on previous form, that it won't be managed correctly and so its more likely there won't be proper records.


----------



## 747

Pat-H said:


> Oh the British do love forms and red tape. Johnson has made much mileage out of his claims to reduce red tape and in doing so has generated even more.
> 
> In taking back control we have strangled ourselves with our closest trading partner. The UK chose to do that and we haven't really seen the impact of that yet.
> More middle "men" with their costs, more delays and the costs of that. Ultimately paid for by the UK shoppers.


https://www.euronews.com/2021/01/03...country-is-fastest-at-rolling-out-the-vaccine


----------



## erneboy

747 said:


> https://www.euronews.com/2021/01/03...country-is-fastest-at-rolling-out-the-vaccine


Hello 7. How are you old chap?

Would have been even more without the red tape then, wouldn't it?


----------



## JanHank

Has anyone else _tried _to listen to Mat Hancock live, he may still be waffling now, I couldn´t stand it any longer, did he go to the same waffle school as Johnson by any chance?


----------



## sennen523

YES, without any doubts.
Just want to get back in the van & head for Spain, maybe in the autumn.
Hope the Anti-Vaccine brigade change their minds or come up with an alternative solution to end this nightmare.

Stay Safe 
Al.


----------



## JanHank

sennen523 said:


> *YES, without any doubts.*
> Just want to get back in the van & head for Spain, maybe in the autumn.
> Hope the Anti-Vaccine brigade change their minds or come up with an alternative solution to end this nightmare.
> 
> Stay Safe
> Al.


I assume you mean they went to the same school:grin2:

I also learnt there will be 12 weeks between the first and second dose of the vaccine, I don´t know whats happening here, my informer hasn`t informed me yet.


----------



## dghr272

JanHank said:


> Has anyone else _tried _to listen to Mat Hancock live, he may still be waffling now, I couldn´t stand it any longer, did he go to the same waffle school as Johnson by any chance?


Total embarrassment for him turning up at a GP surgery to boast about the vaccine progress. Typically even by lunchtime the surgery still hadn't got their delivery of vaccine.
Embarrassing yes but let's be honest, not surprising given their previous incompetence. 
Birmingham council have already complained their Phizer vaccine has run out. They say you need to give it time get up and running, something similar was said about TT&Trace so lots to worry about.

Terry


----------



## aldra

747 said:


> https://www.euronews.com/2021/01/03...country-is-fastest-at-rolling-out-the-vaccine


Yes, Israel and Britain first to roll out the vaccine in significant numbers

Now much can be said about Israel but they are on the ball, I can guarantee their army which consists of every adult male and female, who can be called up at a moments notice in an emergency will be involved

So is Britain in the admin of the Covid vaccine, and still much is said against it

Perhaps we would prefer Frances response ?

We need a greater expansion of drug and areas to administer it

But it's looking good and the army is involved in ensuring we can and will deliver this vaccine, there is a problem with the role out and we were hoping for more

Nevertheless we still are one of the first to roll out this vital vaccine

Ps Hi there Heathcliffe, hope all is well with you and yours :kiss:

Sandra


----------



## erneboy

Why not prefer the British response and hope that perhaps they will begin to find ways to meet the targets they announce. Or better still that they might finally adopt a more cautious policy and promise things that night be achievable.

It's sort of a first principle of leadership. Generally to under promise in the hope of over delivering.


----------



## barryd

I saw this on the local lunchtime news, its hilarious.

It seems some northerners (it wont just be northerners) are refusing to have the pfizer vaccine when its being offered to them because its from funny foreigners and would rather wait for the British one. I wonder how many of them know that the leader of the Oxford team is French or that large amounts of it are being produced in Holland and Germany.

Anyway its terrific news. I am sure there are plenty of less nationalistic sensible people that will take their slots.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...GETBZZm3al-8SrOwOsIHVEUoO4pQmAXHcL4FZKflqUhZ8


----------



## JanHank

Obviously the brains that also voted for Brexit.


----------



## bilbaoman

barryd said:


> I saw this on the local lunchtime news, its hilarious.
> 
> It seems some northerners (it wont just be northerners) are refusing to have the pfizer vaccine when its being offered to them because its from funny foreigners and would rather wait for the British one. I wonder how many of them know that the leader of the Oxford team is French or that large amounts of it are being produced in Holland and Germany.
> 
> Anyway its terrific news. I am sure there are plenty of less nationalistic sensible people that will take their slots.
> 
> https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...GETBZZm3al-8SrOwOsIHVEUoO4pQmAXHcL4FZKflqUhZ8


Good they are saving the tax payer a lot of money also there will be less waste due to its storage requirements did you you relise that in a normal year vaccine storage and mishandling problems cost the NHS more than 6 million


----------



## Pat-H

bilbaoman said:


> Good they are saving the tax payer a lot of money also there will be less waste due to its storage requirements did you you relise that in a normal year vaccine storage and mishandling problems cost the NHS more than 6 million


How will they be saving any money? We have already contracted to buy a certain number of that vaccine. Not accepting it doesn't get us a refund. It just wastes time and effort.


----------



## aldra

It’s not funny at all

It’s so important

A bit like parents who refuse to vaccine kids and put at risk those who can’t receive the vaccine

Hopefully when their kids get older they will not loose their grandchild when their child gets measles

Or their sons become impotent due to mumps

Or give birth to a child born deaf or worse

And should we welcome polio or TB , rickets even

It still exists throughout our world

For us it shouldn’t because we have immunisation 

But we need to take it to keep us and others safe 

Sandra


----------



## erneboy

Of course it's funny.

Listening to idiotic babble is funny, unfortunately it's also tragic.


----------



## dghr272

erneboy said:


> Why not prefer the British response and hope that perhaps they will begin to find ways to meet the targets they announce. Or better still that they might finally adopt a more cautious policy and promise things that night be achievable.
> 
> It's sort of a first principle of leadership. Generally to under promise in the hope of over delivering.


Perhaps I'm mistaken, but not so long ago the Cult didn't want to get involved in comparisons by country for very obvious reasons, suddenly they're happy to do so, bunch of slippery hypocrites.

Terry


----------



## erneboy

dghr272 said:


> .......... bunch of slippery hypocrites.
> 
> Terry


Oh yes, I see what you mean Terry.


----------



## bilbaoman

Pat-H said:


> How will they be saving any money? We have already contracted to buy a certain number of that vaccine. Not accepting it doesn't get us a refund. It just wastes time and effort.


It means that it can be used in in less more controlled areas which means less waste the Pfzer vaccine is more suitable in a large hospital setting due its transport and and storage problems did you know you can only transport it 6 times


----------



## barryd

JanHank said:


> Obviously the brains that also voted for Brexit.


Ooooh! Do you think?

As you know I am responsible for supporting the system that is producing the labels and instructions for the Oxford Vaccine. Today they were in a right flap as it all ground to a halt and I had to edit the actual file with the text in. Had I seen that article before it would have been really tempting to alter it and put "Made in Germany" and maybe an EU Flag background or something. :lol: Lets hope they dont call me again when Ive had a few.


----------



## Glandwr

:smile2:Those that are waiting for the "English" vaccine are going to be waiting a long time. It's made in Wales (Wrexham):laugh:


----------



## erneboy

The thing about Englishness is, like most national identities, that it doesn't really exist. Unless your ancestors were captive on an undiscovered island you almost certainly come from a long line a complicatedly mixed antecedents. All of us do. Wrapping yourself in a national flag as if you are wholly this or that is either an act of stupidity or bigotry, or a tasty cocktail of both.

Just look at the kinds of moron who stormed the Capitol this week. Thugs wrapped in national flags. How often do you see erudite, gentle people doing that, barring perhaps a rugby international, a royal visit, or in order to celebrate some other similar happy occasion?

To save the bother of having to deal with an obvious stupid comment I'm inviting by posting the above. The not so bright should consider that the EU flag is not a national flag, the significance of displaying or wearing it is the polar opposite of wrapping yourselves in Union flags or the English St. George's Cross flag. The only thing I can think of that's worse is twats of every shade in NI misusing practically any flag they can lay their hands on. Especially those who claim allegiance to the Union but know so little about what they claim to be part of that they fly the Union flag upside down.


----------



## JanHank

erneboy said:


> The thing about Englishness is, like most national identities, that it doesn't really exist. Unless your ancestors were captive on an undiscovered island you almost certainly come from a long line a complicatedly mixed antecedents. All of us do. Wrapping yourself in a national flag as if you are wholly this or that is either an act of stupidity or bigotry, or a tasty cocktail of both.
> 
> Just look at the kinds of moron who stormed the Capitol this week. Thugs wrapped in national flags. How often do you see erudite, gentle people doing that, barring perhaps a rugby international, a royal visit, or in order to celebrate some other similar happy occasion?
> 
> To save the bother of having to deal with an obvious stupid comment I'm inviting by posting the above. The not so bright should consider that the EU flag is not a national flag, the significance of displaying or wearing it is the polar opposite or wrapping yourselves in Union flags or the English St. George's Cross flag. The only thing I can think of that's worse is twats of every shade in NI misusing practically any flag they can lay their hands on. Especially those who claim allegiance to the Union but know so little about what they claim to be part of that they fly the Union flag upside down.


I´m a mixture of this lot :laugh:

Who were the conquerors of east anglia
The Norman conquest of England (in Britain, often called the Norman Conquest or the Conquest) was the 11th-century invasion and occupation of England by an army made up of Normans, Bretons, Flemish, and men from other French provinces, all led by the Duke of Normandy later styled William the Conqueror.


----------



## erneboy

Yes, I'm half and half and half too. Red Indian, Eskimo and Pict. All half each.


----------



## JanHank

erneboy said:


> Yes, I'm half and half and half too. Red Indian, Eskimo and Pict. All half each.


:laugh::laugh: (Whats a Pict?)

I´m a descendent of royalty though... maybe >


----------



## dghr272

JanHank said:


> I´m a mixture of this lot :laugh:
> 
> Who were the conquerors of east anglia
> The Norman conquest of England (in Britain, often called the Norman Conquest or the Conquest) was the 11th-century invasion and occupation of England by an army made up of Normans, Bretons, Flemish, and men from other French provinces, all led by the Duke of Normandy later styled William the Conqueror.


Us parked up at William's house in Falasie.
He was out horse riding.

Terry


----------



## JanHank

dghr272 said:


> Us parked up at William's house in Falasie.
> He was out horse riding.
> 
> Terry


He looks as if he has devils horns


----------



## Glandwr

In fact if you went right back into antiquity to try and identify the indigenous people of GB you would come up with ...... wait for it. The Welsh!

Cymru am byth

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cel...glish: Bryttas,and language diverged into the


----------



## erneboy

A sect which worshipped nose pickings Jan.

They went extinct due to a spate of heads caving in.

Or else a little blue person. Making me, purely by accident you understand, red white and blue, just like May's Brexit as it turns out.


----------



## Glandwr

JanHank said:


> He looks as if he has devils horns


Many will tell you that the Norman were descended from Vikings:smile2:


----------



## erneboy

Wisdom?


----------



## JanHank

Glandwr said:


> Many will tell you that the Norman were descended from Vikings:smile2:


So its his helmet (good job this is not on the Fruitcake forum)>


----------



## H1-GBV

I'm related to all of you: my great, great, great, great, ...........great grandparents were Adam & Eve!

Gordon

{I'm sure that's what the vicar told me when I was younger.]


----------



## dghr272

H1-GBV said:


> I'm related to all of you: my great, great, great, great, ...........great grandparents were Adam & Eve!
> 
> Gordon
> 
> {I'm sure that's what the vicar told me when I was younger.]


Were they wed, just askin?

Terry


----------



## rayc

dghr272 said:


> Were they wed, just askin?
> 
> Terry


Talking of Adam and Eve


----------



## patp

How many have done their family tree? Any surprises?


----------



## Pat-H

dghr272 said:


> Were they wed, just askin?
> 
> Terry


And if so who married them and who witnessed it?

Otherwise aren't we all the product of sin?


----------



## JanHank

No 1, probably how most of our ancestors started out

No 1. possibly one of mine

No 3 this is why us females should be careful who we mix with


----------



## aldra

Pat-H said:


> And if so who married them and who witnessed it?
> 
> Otherwise aren't we all the product of sin?


Well there you go

Catholicism

And a lot more isims

We are all bastards

Sandra


----------



## Glandwr

Wonder why have to wait until at least April for our first doses of the Modena vaccine when there are many in Europe already being injected with it? Hungary is expecting a huge batch next week. It's American, where's our bloody special relationship? C'mon Johnson, your mate's still in office for 11 days, get on the bloody phone now.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...eon-general-idUKKBN29C1CR?edition-redirect=uk


----------



## erneboy

Perhaps The Clown should have been on the phone with his old mucker the Orange Faced Horror before he chucked him under the bus licking up to MrBiden?


----------



## bilbaoman

Because for once they got it right Moderna was not pre ordered as its the same Pfzer so it was not wise to place to many pre orders on vaccines of the same design before you know its going to work also the price is to high compared to Pfzer


----------



## Glandwr

bilbaoman said:


> Because for once they got it right Moderna was not pre ordered as its the same Pfzer so it was not wise to place to many pre orders on vaccines of the same design before you know its going to work also the price is to high compared to Pfzer


 Didn't stop us ordering 5 million doses of it in the summer and a further 2 million in November though :laugh:
Why are wee having to wait until April for it I wonder? The rest of Europe has it now.:smile2:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...l-2-million-doses-of-moderna-covid-19-vaccine


----------



## bilbaoman

Even if it was delivered today it would be be impossible to use it as you would have to decrease the use of pfzer due the storage and distribution constraints on this type of vaccine even the EU are having problems with this type of vaccine both Pfzer and Modena are only of use in developed countries and even these would struggle if easier stored and distributed vaccines were not avl


----------



## JanHank

Shock horror for me this morning, there were 2 cases across the road over Christmas and new year, one being Mario from the farm who has helped me with things over the year, he is OK again now. He came out to the gate where Motley and I were talking to Barron the dog and told me, also said to run the lawnmower over to him on Monday for him to give it a service, so he definitely is better. :grin2:


----------



## jiwawa

Glandwr said:


> Why are wee having to wait until April for it I wonder? The rest of Europe has it now./images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_smile.png
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...l-2-million-doses-of-moderna-covid-19-vaccine


I think because we chose not to join in with the EU on that one. We preferred our Brexit options.


----------



## Glandwr

But we have still bought 7 million doses. Do you think we might have got them cheaper? We certainly haven't got them quicker:laugh:


----------



## jiwawa

Glandwr said:


> But we have still bought 7 million doses. Do you think we might have got them cheaper? We certainly haven't got them quicker/images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_smile_big.png


I've no idea, I was just pointing out why EU has and we don't.


----------



## bilbaoman

Yes we would have got it cheaper but but up to now the number of vaccines the EU as given against population numbers is much lower than the UK the very best country is only one third of the UK so you could say it would have been cheaper but would have cost lives also the UK paid the premium to help poorer countries buy the vaccine the EU did not


----------



## aldra

Yes

Let’s at least give credit to the U.K. when it’s due 

I getting tired of U.K. bashing

Ok Brexit isn’t popular on here

Johnson isn’t popular on here

But it’s only a very small population that contributes to this thread

A really small proportion of people

And I’d like to respect their views, but I’d like balance 

Sandra


----------



## erneboy

AS you'd expect I'd suggest that there isn't much of what you call balance because it doesn't actually exist. Matters of fact are not balanced by unsubstantiated beliefs or dogma. But by all means go ahead and challenge any information you disagree with by providing facts that counter what has been said. Bring others along to do the same.


----------



## aldra

No, just me

Sandra


----------



## erneboy

OK. Give us a verifiable fact then.


----------



## Penquin

Surely, the key thing is that as much vaccine is available asap in ALL countries?

There are difficulties with both the Pfizer and the. Moderna vaccines as regards storage (-70C for the Pfizer, -17C for the Moderna vaccine).

-17C is a domestic freezer, -70C is in a solid CO2 freezer, NOT liquid Nitrogen as -163C damages it.

Once taken out of the freezer, they need to thaw, be diluted and taken up as an individual dose. In France it appears 2 out of every 5 doses of the Pfizer vaccine are being unused due to timing issues, so the cost to France is GREATER than the cost per dose in the U.K.

The Moderna vaccine has only just been released and no real information about its use has become available.

A little while ago people ON HERE were concerned about how these vaccines work being based on viral mRNA to trick the cells in the body onto making viral spike proteins which are then released and stimulate the body to produce antibodies. They are a totally new type of vaccine only made possible by genetic engineering....

The AZ vaccine is a normal style, based on using a carrier virus that does not cause disease in man to simplify the process. It has NOT yet been approved by the EU AFAIK.

Costs really should not be considered; the cost of a lost life runs into many, many thousands of £.

Be grateful for whatever any of us can get, it is better than nothing - which is the only alternative.

Sadly CoVid can be a fatal disease, some people are more likely to die than others; BAME, immunologically compromised, diabetics, obese people, severe asthmatics, COPD sufferers, those over 50, males, the list is added to on a regular basis sadly as an increased risk shows a greater likelihood.

I suspect that list probably includes most on here.....

Can MHF afford to lose posters in that manner ?

Just hope that you get the vaccine at least three weeks before encountering the virus.....

You will know when you have had the vaccine, but not when encountering the virus......

Good luck....


----------



## aldra

Yes just let’s celebrate the vaccine

Many have already died without it

With it we have a chance

With a vaccine that doesn’t need impossible storage

The world has a chance

I was lucky first time round, maybe still have antibodies, I find out soon

To the new strain? Who knows

But we all now have a chance to survive

Because we have a vaccine

How brilliant is that?

Sandra


----------



## erneboy

I'll drink to that Sandra.


----------



## aldra

And I’ll join you

Cheers

Sandra :kiss:


----------



## dghr272

My neighbour, the treatment room nurse, had her first vaccination last week, bit of an adverse reaction overnight with headache, painful joints and a raised temperature. Only lasted 24hrs then all back to normal, she’s now jabbing several hundred folk a day with the Oxford vaccine.

Unfortunately she can’t do homers.

Terry


----------



## patp

I'll drink to it too! Mind you, we are supposed to be cutting down on the drink to help fight Covid off if we get it. Taking lots of Vitamin D3 and have sent off for some B12 as we, apparently, do not absorb it so easily in our later years.


----------



## Pat-H

They have proved vitamin D isn't a factor in Covid. Of course ensuring you have enough of all vitiams is important but the initial idea vitiam D or lack of was a factor has been disproved recently.
It's more likely that BAME communities suffer worse due to them being more represented in front line jobs and living in more cramped housing.

More here.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...min-d-combat-covid?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other


----------



## jiwawa

Pat-H said:


> They have proved vitamin D isn't a factor in Covid. Of course ensuring you have enough of all vitiams is important but the initial idea vitiam D or lack of was a factor *has been disproved recently.*
> 
> More here.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...min-d-combat-covid?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other


Has it? That's not my understanding.

It hasn't been PROVED to be beneficial but that's not saying it isn't. Which I think is what your article is saying.

In fact it seems to point the other way - that it MIGHT be beneficial, that it can't harm and it's cheap.


----------



## bilbaoman

jiwawa said:


> Has it? That's not my understanding.
> 
> It hasn't been PROVED to be beneficial but that's not saying it isn't. Which I think is what your article is saying.
> 
> In fact it seems to point the other way - that it MIGHT be beneficial, that it can't harm and it's cheap.


Until its my time to get the vaccine i will rely on my daily intake of vino tinto and spanish brandy to protect me


----------



## Pat-H

bilbaoman said:


> jiwawa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has it? That's not my understanding.
> 
> It hasn't been PROVED to be beneficial but that's not saying it isn't. Which I think is what your article is saying.
> 
> In fact it seems to point the other way - that it MIGHT be beneficial, that it can't harm and it's cheap.
> 
> 
> 
> Until its my time to get the vaccine i will rely on my daily intake of vino tinto and spanish brandy to protect me
Click to expand...

Well alcohol is good for killing germs.


----------



## H1-GBV

But bleach is better :wink2:

Gordon


----------



## bilbaoman

H1-GBV said:


> But bleach is better :wink2:
> 
> Gordon


Only to be used if you are the president of the USA


----------



## Pat-H

H1-GBV said:


> But bleach is better /images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_wink.png
> 
> Gordon


But not as much fun to drink.


----------



## Penquin

jiwawa said:


> Has it? That's not my understanding.
> 
> It hasn't been PROVED to be beneficial but that's not saying it isn't. Which I think is what your article is saying.
> 
> In fact it seems to point the other way - that it MIGHT be beneficial, that it can't harm and it's cheap.


*PROVING* is impossible but there may well be factors that can be described as beneficial causal factors....

It is my understanding that Vitamin D MAY be a factor in the severity of CoVid. In BAME communities, which are more than well represented in front line,bat risk employment and who are more often found in highly dense, multi-generation living conditions. Those last two points are also dorectly linked to lower paid employment, often on the minimum wage. If they are living in central cities, or close to such places, then they may well frequent public transport more often than "white collar" management role people, perhaps living in single family accommodation with more space around the house. Are these linked factors too ?

It has been suggested that BAME communities do not react to the limited level of sunlight in the UK, this means that tgeir skin will not form as much Vitamin D - hence the suggested link. White skinned people react more to sunlight and geberate Vitamin D - raising the level in the body.

So, while not proved, or indeed provable, such possible links can be used to the advantage of people who may be more susceptible due to other factors such as age, obesity, gender, underlying conditions.

I take it regularly, since to quote Tesco's "Every Little Helps.


----------



## dghr272

These help keep you on an even keel.:wink2::wink2:


Terry


----------



## Pat-H

Penquin said:


> *PROVING* is impossible but there may well be factors that can be described as beneficial causal factors....
> 
> It is my understanding that Vitamin D MAY be a factor in the severity of CoVid. In BAME communities, which are more than well represented in front line,bat risk employment and who are more often found in highly dense, multi-generation living conditions. Those last two points are also dorectly linked to lower paid employment, often on the minimum wage. If they are living in central cities, or close to such places, then they may well frequent public transport more often than "white collar" management role people, perhaps living in single family accommodation with more space around the house. Are these linked factors too ?
> 
> It has been suggested that BAME communities do not react to the limited level of sunlight in the UK, this means that tgeir skin will not form as much Vitamin D - hence the suggested link. White skinned people react more to sunlight and geberate Vitamin D - raising the level in the body.
> 
> So, while not proved, or indeed provable, such possible links can be used to the advantage of people who may be more susceptible due to other factors such as age, obesity, gender, underlying conditions.
> 
> I take it regularly, since to quote Tesco's "Every Little Helps.


I can't find the link now but I had read it was provable. Vitamin D levels were measured across a range of Covid suffers from the BAME community and no correlation could be shown between normal and low levels of vitamin D. Some with normal levels went on to be very unwell and even die as did some with low levels. Of course with all these sorts of studies there are so many other factors to consider it would take a lot more research to prove.
But as said taking vitamin D is a cheap harmless (unless taking excessively) step that certainly won't worsen the risk.
I taken calcium supplements (as I have less dairy to reduce cholesterol levels) and that comes with Vitamin D added.


----------



## Penquin

Most people are advised to take 1000 mcg (microgrammes) = 1000 units.

It is apparently safe to take up to 3000 mcg, but over 1000 has not shown to be of any benefit and it is simply removed by the kidneys.


----------



## bilbaoman

Still think a min dosage of 20cl of vino tinto is better protection


----------



## raynipper

Someone sent me this and I wondered how accurate.................................................??

_Germany accused of breaching EU rules by purchasing supplies of vaccine unilaterally
Germany purchased an extra 30 million doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine while trumpeting the benefits of an EU-wide purchasing strategy_

Ray.


----------



## erneboy

Time will tell Ray.

My currently uninformed view is that it seems unlikely that Germany having been part of an EU scheme to buy would exclude the country from also buying on its own behalf. There are many emergency derrogations which allow member states all kinds of unilateral actions. Being a member of the EU does not remove all sovereignty from any member country despite what the brexiters said.


----------



## rayc

Some info on current EU state of play as regards vaccination. Who would have believed that in France "the primary reason for the delay seems to be the cumbersome, over-centralised nature of France's health bureaucracy? A 45-page dossier of instructions issued by the ministry in Paris had to be read and understood by staff at old people's homes.
Each recipient then had to give informed consent in a consultation with a doctor, held no less than five days before injection. "

in Germany it is reported "Much of the criticism has come from Mrs Merkel's own coalition partners but some within the scientific community have echoed their concerns - that Germany put European interests above its own by insisting on a joint EU procurement process. The scientists who developed the vaccine have said publicly that the EU originally turned down an offer for a further order."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55575756


----------



## patp

We are being told that studies of seriously ill people in ITU have shown low levels of vitamin D. Now, this could be causal or as a result of having the virus. I think that I will just take it anyway.


----------



## Pat-H

patp said:


> We are being told that studies of seriously ill people in ITU have shown low levels of vitamin D. Now, this could be causal or as a result of having the virus. I think that I will just take it anyway.


By the time you get to ICU you will have been out of direct sunlight quite a while.


----------



## Ozzyjohn

patp said:


> We are being told that studies of seriously ill people in ITU have shown low levels of vitamin D. Now, this could be causal or as a result of having the virus. I think that I will just take it anyway.


I suppose the question might be, "Are vitamin D levels down more so in ICU patients with the virus than they are in the general population?" I could easily imagine that vitamin D levels are down in large numbers of the general population - I certainly spend a lot less time outdoors during lockdown etc than I would in more normal times. I started taking a vitamin D supplement recently - more from a general health perspective than specifically related to any possible virus related risk.

Regards,
John


----------



## Pat-H

The risk is its the same argument used that people who eat an apple a day are less likely to see a doctor than those that don't.
So the logical answer is get everyone to eat an apple a day.
Which has a very marginal effect. Turns out people who eat a apple a day tend to eat more healthily anyway do more exercise etc.
The apple is just one part of a complex equation.

But as has already been said. Taking the suggested vitamin supplement is cheap and a simple potential precaution. 
I'd say if the government rejected calls to introduce it in foods its probably the right thing to do...


----------



## Ingo Sundowner

bilbaoman said:


> Still think a min dosage of 20cl of vino tinto is better protection


Tinto is my remedy of choice, no matter what the illness :smile2: but we may have to discuss the serious matter of dosage over a few ................... yes, copas de tinto >


----------



## aldra

Vit D is already added to some foods, but it is usually the cheaper D2, there is no regulation to identify which strain of Vit D is used, for example mushrooms contain VitD2

Vit D 2 is difficult for the body to utilise, D3 is the preferred choice, but more expensive 

Most people with cancer have low VitD levels, according to Alberts dermatologist 

Not everyone is efficient at getting it from sunlight , and many whose cultures require them to be covered, especially women are exposed to very little sunlight of the intensity or length of time they would receive in their native countries

I take a high daily dose of VitD, as does Albert , a calcium blood check ensures that all remains well

The recommended dose is far too low to be beneficial, other than to prevent rickets in young children 

That people with Covid in ICU have low VitD levels may well be why they are in ICU, no studies have yet been done, but as we are primed to utilise VitD stored throughout the winter, I was would guess they were low before contacting Covid

Sandra


----------



## Penquin

Sandra, what dose do you and Albert take - you describe it as "high"? the maximum recommended is 3000 mcg/day AFAIK, so can you give some more detail please ?

The figure that I quoted comes from my GP daughter.


----------



## aldra

I wouldn’t give a figure Dave 

It’s for each to decide, just as I wouldn’t recommend everyone fasts for 40 days at lent, or any other time

To build up levels from scratch very high short term doses are needed , but I was under an endocrinologist 
at the time

If your daughter recommends 300O a day I guess you should go with that, although I risk a much higher dose 

Sandra


----------



## Pat-H

No plans for night time vaccines it seems.
No appetite from people they say but everyone I know would gladly have the vaccine at anytime.


----------



## erneboy

Pat-H said:


> No plans for night time vaccines it seems.
> No appetite from people they say but everyone I know would gladly have the vaccine at anytime.


It's not a real emergency. It can be put away during normal working hours.

The working days may get longer as it gets worse, and we're only a short way away from that, even if Ploddy thinks 7 to 10 days will see infections reduce.

I think he may be in error on the 7to 10 day estimate.


----------



## jiwawa

Pat-H said:


> I'd say if the government rejected calls to introduce it in foods its probably the right thing to do...


The Govt (or A Govt) has delivered supplies of VitD to its vulnerable people - my sister in Edinburgh received her supply about a month ago. 


aldra said:


> The recommended dose is far too low to be beneficial, other than to prevent rickets in young children
> 
> That people with Covid in ICU have low VitD levels may well be why they are in ICU, no studies have yet been done, but as we are primed to utilise VitD stored throughout the winter, I was *would guess they were low before contacting Covid*
> 
> Sandra


There have been observational studies Sandra, noting that in many ICU patients the levels of VitD were at rickets levels or below.

I think the whole point of taking the VitD is to hopefully avoid being in that position.

Sorry I can't remember where I read this but it was some time ago.


----------



## raynipper

We are taking a high dose of Vit D. Just in case.

Ray.


----------



## bilbaoman

Unfortunatley i cannot increase my medicine today as i am already over the Uk recomended units for it maybe 1 more glass would not hurt.


----------



## Penquin

aldra said:


> I wouldn't give a figure Dave
> 
> It's for each to decide, just as I wouldn't recommend everyone fasts for 40 days at lent, or any other time
> 
> To build up levels from scratch very high short term doses are needed , but I was under an endocrinologist
> at the time
> 
> If your daughter recommends 300O a day I guess you should go with that, although I risk a much higher dose
> 
> Sandra


Not just my daughter,

Healthline(American) recommends a maximum of 4000 IU

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vitamin-d-dosage#TOC_TITLE_HDR_3

There is considerable confusion about how much is needed for anything....

The NHS website says an absolute maximum of 100 mcg which is 4000IU

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-d/

But, there is no evidence to support the suggested role in CoVid as, of course, no studies have been done (does that soubd like HMG and vaccine second dose issues ? )

Discuss with your Doctor and if not take advice on here as applicable to you, what Sandra and I may of, which may differ, does not apply to you. Each of us is an individual and has different underlying needs or wants.

The one clear factor is that you CANNOT overdose on D3 built up from sunlight, but of course few people wear a pair of chords and T shirt in mid-winter...... although the Fisk is f skin cancer and sunburn still apply..lol.


----------



## Penquin

France is seeking to extend the time between vaccinations "so that more people can receive some immunity", but has not yet said at what interval.

There are also active moves to reduce thecwastage of vaccine, each rose requires 0.3 ml and thus five doses is 1.5 ml, the vial contains enough, just, for another 2 doses. Pfizer of bourse, are not happy with allowing the vial to be designated as containing 6 or 7 doses and may raise the price to Government that...

https://www.connexionfrance.com/Fre...il&utm_term=0_9b5fbe85b4-4f1a9163db-358495333

The lateral thinking of allowing more to be used is currently being used in Israel and is reflected in their high apparent rate.


----------



## DJMotorhomer

I had it on good authority today from someone who works in an NHS building that one day last week 87 people failed to attend their vaccine appointments.

These were then offered to people who were in the building who were not yet invited for theirs so they would not be wasted.

Dave


----------



## jiwawa

I haven't heard anyone give any thought to how those administering the vaccine are going to cope once the 12 weeks are up after the 1st dose - that'll be the beginning of March.

I believe they have delivered 2nd dose to a number but the vast majority will start coming due in March. How to manage both streams?

I do hope they've at least considered the problem. Or will they leave that till the end of February.... Par for the course.


----------



## Penquin

My GP daughter was given hers from "wastage" at the end of a day vaccinating others, funnily enough she got her second dose in the same way..l.

If not used after dilution within a few hours it must be destroyed. It must not be shaken even by taking it upstairs as such movement breaks the lipid layer that surrounds the mRNA which is the basis for it working. I had not realised WHY it was so delicate, now I can understand.


----------



## jiwawa

I think it's the States that's having a big argument about whether to move down the list of priorities if higher priority don't turn up or refuse. And that's the Pfizer they're using.

Would they prefer just to waste it??


----------



## bilbaoman

I see the Pfzer vaccine is not on the list for use in the COVAX vaccine rollout plan which is due to start the WHO must have relised that the wastage would not be acceptable if it is used in third world countries


----------



## patp

Dr Sarah Jarvis, the Radio 2 GP, says that she takes 2000 iu of Vitamin D. She avoids the sun due to having a fair skin.

My doctor actually told me, years ago. to eat an apple a day after I asked him if I should take a low dose aspirin every day. He is also the one who, when calculating whether to prescribe statins, takes off the "age factor" and then decides whether statins are necessary. In other words it is done on your actual blood results and not by factoring in your age. I am impressed with his attitude.


----------



## aldra

Interesting, on my letter from the gov to extremely vulnerable people

It states I can apply for free Vit D for four months!

Sandra


----------



## H1-GBV

We applied approx 2 months ago.

They haven't arrived yet but we bought some back in September.

Gordon


----------



## aldra

They won’t be strong enough for me

I buy my own 

Although my GP should prescribe it according to my endocrinologist, and for Albert according to his dermatologist and his oncologist

But our GP informed us we could buy it, which we always have done , when asked about his response to the letter he was sent 

And I’m guessing there is a big demand for Vit D in this area

Don’t even go there webby 

A big lack of Vit D in those whose religion demands full coverage in our climate , even men in traditional dress 

I’m speaking as a nurse, could that be a reason that BAME residents are more at risk?

Time will tell as we find out more about the virus

Sandra


----------



## aldra

Letter today from the office for National statistics

Blood test shows positive for antibodies, for both of us , Covid the middle of March, antibodies still present 10 months later

It all helps research, a pity I’m too old for my blood to help others

Sandra


----------



## barryd

aldra said:


> Letter today from the office for National statistics
> 
> Blood test shows positive for antibodies, for both of us , Covid the middle of March, antibodies still present 10 months later
> 
> It all helps research, a pity I'm too old for my blood to help others
> 
> Sandra


Thats great news though Sandra, not just for you and Albert but for anyone that has had the virus. Do the tests show if they have depleted over time or not? I dont understand the science but I do know they didnt know how long the antibodies would last.


----------



## patp

Great news, Sandra. Let's hope that all the young people and children who have had it are now immune. I think, however, that they are saying that people with immunity can still spread the virus so we do all have be careful until all the vulnerable are vaccinated.


----------



## aldra

I’m still shielding 

But because I registered with the the office of National statistics to be tested monthly 

I get the swab test and blood test around monthly

( assuming the testers can actually take blood)

I rarely leave the house, Albert still shops with mask and gloves

I have antibodies, but I almost died getting them, the miracle was that Albert who took care of me didnt and still has antibodies 

He slept in the same bed, refused to leave me at night, and sat with me most of the day panicking when my lips went blue

Me I just slept, didn’t eat, hardly drank , didn’t really know I couldn’t breath that well

It should have been him with COPD and cancer that nearly died , but it wasn’t thank God 

We both survived it

We both have antibodies, but we both still take care not to infect or be infected by anyone

But how I hope for the day I can hug my kids and grandkids

But I guess I’m not alone in that

Even a hug from my toyboy would be so special 

Sandra


----------



## DJMotorhomer

Read today that Lincolnshire is getting 5 new vaccine outlets, my surgery is one of them, wonder how long I have to wait.

I will be asking on Monday when I get my ear syringed.

Dave


----------



## bilbaoman

DJMotorhomer said:


> Read today that Lincolnshire is getting 5 new vaccine outlets, my surgery is one of them, wonder how long I have to wait.
> 
> I will be asking on Monday when I get my ear syringed.
> 
> Dave


You can be sure that you will get it before we do in Spain the EU orders dont start ramping up until the second quarter they did give the first Moderna vaccination today in Spain i am 77 and dont expect to get it until April May time so its not only the Uk goverment thats crap :frown2::frown2:


----------



## JanHank

I have no idea when I will get mine and not at all worried, it will come sometime and even when it does it will make no difference to my behaviour, that won’t change until the infection rate is rock bottom. Unlike most of you I have no problem with my own company, I am alone, but no way am I lonely as long as the internet doesn’t break down 😁.


----------



## barryd

JanHank said:


> I have no idea when I will get mine and not at all worried, it will come sometime and even when it does it will make no difference to my behaviour, that won't change until the infection rate is rock bottom. Unlike most of you I have no problem with my own company, I am alone, but no way am I lonely as long as the internet doesn't break down 😁.


Can you imagine what this would have been like without the internet? I remember when I first introduced Mrs D to the internet when I first set her up with a PC about 20 years ago and her saying "I dont see the point of the internet, whats it for?"


----------



## jiwawa

JanHank said:


> .... I am alone, but no way am I lonely as long as the internet doesn't break down 😁.


Agreed Jan n Barry. Tho without the Internet I'd probably spend more time reading books, which had gone by the board in the last few months.


----------



## Don Madge

Had my first covid jab at the local GP's surgery, took about 50 minutes from arriving to leaving after resting for 15 minutes. It was very well organised and I get my second jab on the first of April. No after effects so far.

We are still managing to walk most days, we are very lucky to have a good walk on the prom from Rusting to Littlehampton and back. We get a coffee from Costa Coffee in Littlehampton then sit on the sea front watching the world go by. 
Stay safe.
Regards
Don


----------



## sennen523

YES, no doubts at all and is the only way out of this.


----------



## raynipper

Don Madge said:


> Had my first covid jab at the local GP's surgery, took about 50 minutes from arriving to leaving after resting for 15 minutes. It was very well organised and I get my second jab on the first of April. No after effects so far.
> 
> We are still managing to walk most days, we are very lucky to have a good walk on the prom from Rusting to Littlehampton and back. We get a coffee from Costa Coffee in Littlehampton then sit on the sea front watching the world go by.
> Stay safe. Regards Don


Great news Don and Maureen.
Yes it's tough not being able to just travel at will. But the alternative could be terminal. We did have a car malfunction when almost at the Portuguese border which made me decide to come home just before Christmas. Now with hindsight it was the better choice and we can always hope to get back to Armacao another time.

Ray.


----------



## JanHank

Don Madge said:


> We are still managing to walk most days, we are very lucky to have a good walk on the prom from Rusting to Littlehampton and back. We get a coffee from Costa Coffee in Littlehampton then sit on the sea front watching the world go by.
> Stay safe.
> Regards
> Don


That put a little skip on my heart rate reading a post from you Don, so pleased you are still getting out in the fresh air, keep away from the unmasked and stupid ones :grin2:


----------



## jiwawa

aldra said:


> I'm still shielding
> 
> But because I registered with the the office of National statistics to be tested monthly
> 
> I get the swab test and blood test around monthly
> 
> Sandra


This should be of interest to you Sandra.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...-gives-similar-level-of-protection-to-vaccine


----------



## Pat-H

jiwawa said:


> This should be of interest to you Sandra.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society...-gives-similar-level-of-protection-to-vaccine


Not so useful to us that had it nearly 40 weeks ago. In fact wearing the mask and avoiding the virus has probably hastened away the immunity. Normally low exposure to it helps keep the immunity boosted.


----------



## aldra

I’m still showing antibodies in blood sample after 40 weeks Pat

Must say something, so is Albert although he was no where near as ill with Covid as I was

Sandra


----------



## Penquin

The titre of antibody response is not linear, it is more reverse exponential once established.

On the first exposure the body takes 3 - 4 days to recognise the foreign protein and start the imune response, this is the development of antibodies which GENERALLY start to appear around 7 days post exposure.

The number of circulating antibodies builds up over about 3 - 4 weeks to a high level, by which time T-Lymphocytes can also be detected, these are the white blood cells that surround and engulf the antibody-antigen complex- the foreign protein (virus coat) + the locked on antibody which fits the spike proteins of the CoVid virus like a glove fits over a finger or two or three. That locking on of the antibody stops the virus being able to enter the cell in the body that it would normally attack - in the respiratory tract.

The T cells destroy the antibody * virus particle using digestive enzymes. They can often go on to destroy others, or in some cases are then destroyed themselves in the liver.

Once the antibody level peaks, it declines very slowly, generally reaching an undetectable level after around one year UNLESS

there is a second exposure to the same antigen (virus), in which case the body reacts VERY much quicker, as it has "seen" the virus before., in which case it responds normally within 48h producing a much higher level of antibody response. These antibodies and T-Lymphocytes AND Memory cells circulate within the body at a high level which only declines VERY slowly.

In some cases these antibodies are readily detectable after 10 YEARS.

If, during this long period, the body encounters the same virus again, it responds so fast that the virus cannot infect cells at all, so the infection never gets a chance to start.

That is the basic purpose of ALL vaccines, to establish a level of antibody sufficient to "tie up" any infecting virus before it can be established.

Once developed, an immune response is often still measurable 20 years or more later, but the level may not be high enough for a rapid response - hence repeat booster doses.

CoVid is new, no-one yet knows how long the antibodies will last at any particular level - hence the concerns about the UK strategy, although other countries are using the same model.

One added complication is that viruses change, often, so far there have been more than a dozen changes in the oroginal CoVid virus, that will undoubtedly continue but as long as the overall shape of the spike protein does not change, any vaccine should be functional to initiate the antibody response and the antibodies SHOUKD be able to lock on and immobilise the viral particles.

In general terms, as Albert has probably shown, repeated exposure generates a higher response, he was probably exposed early on and yet was not affected for the first few days, perhaps the exposure level was too low initially. His body built up antibodies which continue to be found such a long home afterwards, thank heavens.

Hopefully, both Sandra AND Albert now have life-long immunity so we will not lose them via that nasty virus......

I hope that makes sense, sorry, typical biology teacher mode...


----------



## Pat-H

Yes makes perfect sense but of course the re-infection/exposure to the virus is being inhibited to some degree by the Covid restrictions in place. Stopping the spread will, for some, reduce their ongoing resistance.

Catch 22


----------



## aldra

I think as I was on immunosuppressants at the time I encountered Covid 

My immune system failed to respond 

Alberts obviously did

Thanks Dave, you can go into biology teacher mode as often as you like...fascinating 

Sandra


----------



## Penquin

Pat-H said:


> Yes makes perfect sense but of course the re-infection/exposure to the virus is being inhibited to some degree by the Covid restrictions in place. Stopping the spread will, for some, reduce their ongoing resistance.
> 
> Catch 22


BUT

and isn't there always a BUT.....

The BIG problem with CoVid is that it can build up VERY quickly in some people, from zero level of virus particles to overwhelming within 5 - 7 days, meaning they could be exposed on Sunday, infectious from the same day, really unwell with lung structure being attacked by Saturday and sadly killed by Sunday.

Hence what Johnson hopes for and wants, is that a single exposure to the vaccine will build up some resistance and reduce, or preferably stop, that very rapid onset route.

It is not possible to predict who will suffer that way. One thing that does seem to occur is that those vaccinated do not descend via that route or need to be hospitalised......

Once again BUT the "no serious hospitalisation" result was after TWO doses, not a single one - and therein lays the Johnson gamble.

It is impossible to predict the outcome, as has been said "wait and see" is the only way to develop hindsight about what HAS happened.


----------



## erneboy

Hindsight is to have waited and seen isn't it?

Never thought of this before but if we comment as things unfold we are told to wait and see, and if we comment later we are told that hindsight is 20/20. It's almost as though looking back and seeing that something was not well done and commenting on it, even when it's done with the hope that it wouldn't be repeated, is some kind of a fault. Isn't it? 

Cake and eat it? People can't have it both ways.


----------



## Penquin

erneboy said:


> Hindsight is to have waited and seen isn't it?
> 
> Never thought of this before but if we comment as things unfold we are told to wait and see, and if we comment later we are told that hindsight is 20/20. It's almost as though looking back and seeing that something was not well done and commenting on it, even when it's done with the hope that it wouldn't be repeated, is some kind of a fault. Isn't it?
> 
> Cake and eat it? People can't have it both ways.


Sorry Alan, but that seems to me to be a deliberate misunderstanding of what I was posting.

It is impossible to predict how long the immunity will last - UNTIL THAT TIME HAS PASSED.

The Government TODAY said that anyone who has HAD CoVid is not LIKELY to be immune for at least five months, from the experience of the last six months - the time since people were thought to have overcome it - last June.

So, only by looking back can any surety be given, not by guessing in advance,

Wait and see is all that CAN happen so that some degree of certainty can be given.

There can be no other way, or maybe your crystal ball can tell us with a high degree of certainty what Saturday's Lotto result will be ?

All we can do is "wait and see" and then look back, with hindsight, what the result was.

To suggest any other interpretation is to deliberately misunderstand.

I am in NO WAY suggesting fault and I believe that is clear from my posts.


----------



## erneboy

Not deliberate I promise Dave.

In any case I wasn't taking issue with you. I was making a point, rather an obvious one, about a contradiction that had never occurred to me before.


----------



## Pat-H

That's not strickly true. We have knowledge of how viruses work. We have knowledge of how the human body works.
We don't know it all but we no more than nothing. So experts can make educated predictions and refine them as things unfold.


----------



## aldra

I noted the research/ study was only 5 months reliable 

Or maybe I’m wrong

People like me who were never actually tested for Covid at the time I was so ill, would not have entered the research figures

If I wasn’t now part of a research programme I could never have proved that I even had Covid 

No one would visit to test me 

But I have antibodies, 10 months later

If I’d agreed to be admitted to hospital at the time then I’d have been part of early figures

But people were dying rather quickly in mid March, little was known of the virus

And I decided if I was to die I’d die at home with Albert by my side

Selfish, yes but I’d make the same decision again , and I guess he would too

Sandra


----------



## Penquin

Pat-H said:


> That's not strickly true. We have knowledge of how viruses work. We have knowledge of how the human body works.
> We don't know it all but we no more than nothing. So experts can make educated predictions and refine them as things unfold.


With the antibody response level, it is not hard to measure, what is hard to predict is the differentvway that different people are reacting.

So, experts (who are now regarded as worse than liars after the Brexit campaign painted ALL experts as dishonest), are now VERY unlikely to put their head above the parapet for fear of being proved wrong by someone with hindsight.

They are therefore very conservative (small c) with what they say. There are still many aspects of viral behaviour and its effects that are little understood, suggestions over the past few months have included Vitamin D levels, skin colour, diet, density of housing with multigenerational occupation, even the 1m / 2m safe distance is only based on rudimentary evidence of how far invisible microdroplets MAY spread and how much virus they can carry.

Sadly, if someone says anything that can be considered potentially challengable, then it WILL be challenged. We have seen that repeatedly since it is human nature to try to clarify what we are told - although sadly, that does not seem to have occurred under other major events.

Many statements are on the scientific / political boundaries - scientists are VERY wary of overstepping an undemarcated line, whereas politicians are much more ready to make statements that are within the field of scientific content.

It must, of course, also be remembered that MOST scientific research is centrally funded and few scientists can afford to criticise the hands that directly or indirectly hold the purse strings.......

Sadly, with this Government there seems to be a greater reservation about speaking out than has been observed before, I wonder why that is ...... ?


----------



## patp

Heard of a couple who, recently, contracted the virus. The wife had a sore throat and was assured by the doctor that it was not the virus. Husband had mild Covid symptoms. Three days later she died. He was fine.

This story, as in Sandra's case, of one part of a couple succumbing to the virus while the other doesn't, seems to happen quite a lot.


----------



## Penquin

According to Grant Schapps on BBC Breakfast;

"There have been ore than 12 thousand variants so far" 

So my suggestion of more than 12 was false, apologies, obviously I do not have the same level of resource as HMG.

All travel from Brazil, Argentina, Portugal and South Africa has now been banned, except for British citizens or residents who will need to supply a CoVid free certificate from within 72 hours of departure and tgen quarantine for 10 days on arrival. Portugal becacuse tgere are many links between Portugal and South American countries.


----------



## Ozzyjohn

patp said:


> Heard of a couple who, recently, contracted the virus. The wife had a sore throat and was assured by the doctor that it was not the virus. Husband had mild Covid symptoms. Three days later she died. He was fine.
> 
> This story, as in Sandra's case, of one part of a couple succumbing to the virus while the other doesn't, seems to happen quite a lot.


Yes, the only member of my immediate family to have tested positive so far is my oldest son - he's a secondary school teacher doing supply work, so three schools in three days in the run up to Christmas made catching it quite likely. He tested positive in the last week of term so isolated at home (he lives in a small Victorian terraced house with his partner who is also a teacher). He's fine again now, but despite multiple tests his girlfriend had no positive result (and no symptoms).

Regards,
John


----------



## bilbaoman

I see in the UK the take up of the vaccines is 80% in the white population but only 50% in the asian population due to fake news that the vaccines contain meat products


----------



## Pat-H

bilbaoman said:


> I see in the UK the take up of the vaccines is 80% in the white population but only 50% in the asian population due to fake news that the vaccines contain meat products


But that figure only means anything if you know the ethnic balance of those offered the vaccine?
It may well be that more white people have been offered it do far.


----------



## bilbaoman

Pat-H said:


> But that figure only means anything if you know the ethnic balance of those offered the vaccine?
> It may well be that more white people have been offered it do far.


IT means 80% of whites offered it accept it and only 50% of asians offered it accept it


----------



## Pat-H

bilbaoman said:


> IT means 80% of whites offered it accept it and only 50% of asians offered it accept it


Yes I see there are reports of failing to involve local communities and a continuation of other centralized government initiatives. They don't know exactly why yet but its suspected that communities don't trust the government and do trust their local health community who are being kept out of the loop.


----------



## Penquin

Pat-H said:


> Yes I see there are reports of failing to involve local communities and a continuation of other centralized government initiatives. They don't know exactly why yet but its suspected that communities don't trust the government and do trust their local health community who are being kept out of the loop.


That should not be a surprise, they may well have realised that the whole country has been lied to, repeatedly.

It has s true that ALL faiths have endorsed the use of all of the vaccines and have assured tgeir followers that it does not contain meat, pork or beef products and is Kosher AND Halal. That must be a very important endorsement for its use.


----------



## Pat-H

Penquin said:


> That should not be a surprise, they may well have realised that the whole country has been lied to, repeatedly.
> 
> It has s true that ALL faiths have endorsed the use of all of the vaccines and have assured tgeir followers that it does not contain meat, pork or beef products and is Kosher AND Halal. That must be a very important endorsement for its use.


As we know (well some of acknowledge while others deny) non white communities have had a rough time of it in recent years and its no wonder they have a caution about promises on the safety and testing made by the government.

On the flip side we see how easily much of the remaining population is led to believe whatever suits the government.


----------



## aldra

We have just been informed we are to have our first vaccine at 4.30 on Tuesday, and it’s local

Brilliant, as we are only vulnerable 

So they are rolling it out

Sandra


----------



## JanHank

I have been sent by the German government 2 vouchers, I for this month one for next for 6 masks to be collected from any chemist and I only have to pay 2€, do you have anything like that over there?


----------



## raynipper

We had an envelope of six masks dropped into all mail boxes early last year from the Mairie. 
Every time I visited a hospital for treatment or just a scan I was presented with a few more masks. 
Plus my wife has fashioned about another dozen.

Ray.


----------



## JanHank

raynipper said:


> We had an envelope of six masks dropped into all mail boxes early last year from the Mairie.
> Every time I visited a hospital for treatment or just a scan I was presented with a few more masks.
> Plus my wife has fashioned about another dozen.
> 
> Ray.


These are sent to everyone in the country that´s over 60.


----------



## erneboy

The Ayuntamiento (local council) delivered masks to our door in April and asked if we'd like them regularly.


----------



## JanHank

Germany France and Spain what about the UK?


----------



## Ozzyjohn

I’ve not come across anything similar in the U.K. 

No doubt they will announce a scheme in due course - just as soon as one of Hancock’s mates realises that they can make a vast profit without delivering anything.

Regards,
John


----------



## bilbaoman

erneboy said:


> The Ayuntamiento (local council) delivered masks to our door in April and asked if we'd like them regularly.


Nothing in the Basque Country but not a problem for us daughter supplies ours she is given them at the school she teaches at.


----------



## Penquin

Both MrsW and I get 50 masks per month, so we have an ample supply....

She got her prescription for the vaccine as a "priority person", I have to go to my GP tomorrow morning to find out if I qualify too....

To be honest, I feel safer here than my daughter's comments in the UK.


----------



## bilbaoman

I see Pfzer are reducing deliveries of vaccine to the EU and Norway from now to mid Feb no mention of UK deliveries being affected


----------



## JanHank

Penquin said:


> Both MrsW and I get 50 masks per month, so we have an ample supply....
> 
> She got her prescription for the vaccine as a "priority person", I have to go to my GP tomorrow morning to find out if I qualify too....
> 
> To be honest, I feel safer here than my daughter's comments in the UK.


Are they supplied to you free Dave? Why ever would anyone need *50* masks a month that's more that one a day.


----------



## patp

We have to supply our own masks. Must be some EU thing by the sound of it. I wonder who it is in Brussels that has a mate that supplies them? There was a huge voluntary effort to make masks from donated fabric which is environmentally friendly too


----------



## jiwawa

This is a very interesting ongoing series on the radio, available on catchup - How to Vaccinate the World. I've listened to only a few so far but found them very informative.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000py6s/episodes/player


----------



## bilbaoman

Looks like the NHS will be vaccinating the over 70 years group starting next weekend the best date for us in Spain at the moment is April


----------



## JanHank

bilbaoman said:


> Looks like the NHS will be vaccinating the over 70 years group starting next weekend the best date for us in Spain at the moment is April


Don't worry about it, just remember your weather is mostly better where you are, your heating will be turned off before theirs, you'll feel the warm sun before them, you'd rather be living in Spain than over there and even though they have the vaccination they still won't be free to visit you, our turn will come, no idea when mine will be.


----------



## erneboy

patp said:


> We have to supply our own masks. Must be some EU thing by the sound of it. I wonder who it is in Brussels that has a mate that supplies them? There was a huge voluntary effort to make masks from donated fabric which is environmentally friendly too


The method, timing and quantity seems a bit too random for it to be a centrally dictated thing I think.


----------



## bilbaoman

We were in Cambodia last Jan masks were free the method of distrubution was stalls on the pavement when you needed one you just took one this would not work in Europe as someone would take the lot and sell them in the pub or bar


----------



## Penquin

JanHank said:


> Are they supplied to you free Dave? Why ever would anyone need *50* masks a month that's more that one a day.


Both are medically compromised and at serious risk, the masks are paid for by the state health scheme and the idea is if you don't use them all, you don't collect them.

So far since September when the issue started, I have actually collected two boxes, I wear one for the maximum of one day if visiting hospital etc., in most hospitals now there is a one way route through and a box to discard used masks as you leave.

Apparently, the disposable masks CAN be washed a few times but that sounds risky to me. We also got upissued with six washable masks by the commune, all residents received the same.


----------



## raynipper

I have been using 3 or 4 masks for six months. My wife washes them now and again but as mine are left in the car and get forgotten but used as soon as we leave the car.

Ray.


----------



## bilbaoman

India as started vaccinations planning to give 300 million a double jab by august


----------



## patp

I hope we are all cutting the loops before we bin our masks?


----------



## JanHank

Who carries a pair of scissors or a knife around with them Pat? I have a shut knife, but not many people do.


----------



## raynipper

My wife has everything in her bag. I think the scissors are between the jack and spare wheel.

Ray.


----------



## Pat-H

More info that confirms very low likelyhood of vaccine take up in BAME groups.
Our past instutional racism has come to bite our ability going forward.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ikely-covid-jab-uk?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other


----------



## patp

JanHank said:


> Who carries a pair of scissors or a knife around with them Pat? I have a shut knife, but not many people do.


Put the mask in a pocket until you can find a way to cut the loops. So many creatures are being found with these masks wrapped around their necks


----------



## Penquin

Simple pull and the elastic is out, takes a second and works easily. Or put in a fire and destroy that way, it all burns quite well in our wood burner,

BUT, as said, DO NOT DISCARD WITH iNTACT ELASTUC - wildlife can be endangered.


----------



## JanHank

I would never dream of throwing one away, it would go in my bonfire bag.

I think I could count how many times I have worn a mask on my digits, shopping, went on Wednesday, first time since before Christmas, other times once every 2 weeks, before that My neighbour did my shopping. 
I´m not a gadabout


----------



## Pat-H

Why is anyone throwing masks away?
We bought fabric masks and wash them. 
I have a few with carbon filters that the filter has to be replaced and that gets thrown but the fabric of the mask is washed. 
I've never used a disposable mask.


----------



## Penquin

Pat-H said:


> Why is anyone throwing masks away?
> We bought fabric masks and wash them.
> I have a few with carbon filters that the filter has to be replaced and that gets thrown but the fabric of the mask is washed.
> I've never used a disposable mask.


No admission to hospital clinics, Doctor's surgeries or any clinics is permitted with cloth masks, we have half a dozen each but have to use disposable ones in accordance with rules here.


----------



## raynipper

The two hospitals and one clinic we have been to give out disposable ones Dave. I keep wearing them as we don't go out enough to use them up.

Ray.


----------



## baldlygo

My 95 year old Dad was driven for his jab this morning by my brother - the driver has just messaged me.


> 10 miles in the snow. Apparently vaccine held up due to snow. Was told had typo wait at least 3/4 hour before joining queue. Massive queue of non socialising distancing pensioners not wearing masks. After waiting 3/4 hour and queue not going down decided to travel back to ipswich. More chance of getting covid or hypothermia if joining queue.


Sounds very worrying to me :frown2:


----------



## raynipper

Is that in France Paul? I didn't think the jabs were available till monday.

Ray.


----------



## baldlygo

raynipper said:


> Is that in France Paul? I didn't think the jabs were available till monday.
> 
> Ray.


Suffolk Ray


----------



## baldlygo

Sounds horrendous to me. He is ultra vulnerable and been in isolation for months. Not even contact with others in the same retirement complex. I just can't believe it.


----------



## Penquin

Agree totally, disgraceful behaviour, presumably no-one I/c to complain to at the venue ?


----------



## Pat-H

Penquin said:


> Pat-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why is anyone throwing masks away?
> We bought fabric masks and wash them.
> I have a few with carbon filters that the filter has to be replaced and that gets thrown but the fabric of the mask is washed.
> I've never used a disposable mask.
> 
> 
> 
> No admission to hospital clinics, Doctor's surgeries or any clinics is permitted with cloth masks, we have half a dozen each but have to use disposable ones in accordance with rules here.
Click to expand...

Not hear. No restrictions but generally single layer masks shouldn't be used. But my wife makes and buys 3 layer masks.
They fit way better than the flimsy blue paper disposable ones.


----------



## dghr272

DiL got her jab today at the Ulster Hospital as a key worker dispensing meds directly to care homes.

Terry


----------



## baldlygo

Penquin said:


> Agree totally, disgraceful behaviour, presumably no-one I/c to complain to at the venue ?


My Dad would never complain about his health treatment. In fact, he would be horrified if he know I was talking about his health on any Internet platform. 
A year or so ago I was angry when his GP did not recognise a condition which cost him 3 months of itching and sleepless tormented nights. In the end, he paid private and his problem was in 10 minutes diagnosed correctly as scabies. Apparently, it was common at the home my mother stayed in before she died and his GP knew he visited nearly every day.
I think he should have complained then and asked for his private consultation to be paid for him. It might also have helped to stop someone else suffering in a similar way. No way would he complain :frown2:


----------



## aldra

Hospitals here give out masks, fabric ones not allowed, hand sanitation monitored at the door

Dentist provides mask and gloves 

We use masks rarely as we rarely go out 

Left for thee days sealed Covid dies 

No need to landfill with masks that have been worn for an hour

Bag for three days, reuse or put into paper disposal 

Or even hang them in a well ventilated spot and recycle them

Sandra


----------



## aldra

I know exactly how he felt

As a student nurse I contacted scabies from a patient

The treatment then was brutal, it was a long time ago, scrubbing with a stiff brush and a caustic soap to break down the under skin passages

The itch was also brutal

It should be easy to identify in modern times

Sandra


----------



## fdhadi

Why not vaccinate by household. 

They have to leave a room free for 15 mins for each person. Surely they could do a family in the same room in 5 mins then leave that room free for 15 mins. 

How much time could that save and how many more people could they vaccinate. 
Their are 4 of us, myself 57, my wife 53, daughters 21 & 18. 

Just a simple thought.


----------



## Penquin

Just a word of warning

There is some recent evidence that the CoVid virus can survive for up to 28 days on sons surfaces in some condirions.......

Hot, UV laden conditions destroy it within minutes, cool, damp conditions allow its survival.

This info came from BBC Breakfast today from the virologist from Imperial College (?) from memory.....


----------



## jiwawa

Penquin said:


> Agree totally, disgraceful behaviour, presumably no-one I/c to complain to at the venue ?


I can understand the reaction but seeing it from the other side, the vaccine was held up in the snow, presumably they were expecting it to arrive imminently. If it was the Pfizer they really needed to start using it that day so they couldn't really take the risk of sending everyone home.

Very difficult decisions IMO.


----------



## H1-GBV

No, it was "The Naked Scientist": Chris Smith (born 1975) - "the Naked Scientist" - is a British consultant virologist and a lecturer based at Cambridge University where he is a fellow commoner of Queens' College.

Quite frightening the length of time which it can stay on surfaces: we wipe everything with mild bleach. So far, so good.

Gordon


----------



## jiwawa

Might I suggest that when you've had your vaccine you log it with the Zoe app which is running the largest community study into the effects of the vaccine? They have almost 110,000 vaccines logged so far.

In fact, if you don't already do so you could start logging your symptoms now. I've been logging my symptoms daily from almost the beginning of the pandemic and, having over 4.55 million users, they are able to submit useful, real-time info to the government - they are able to see pockets of rising infection before these become apparent through test results. The Zoe covid app was the first to be aware of the loss of smell/taste as an indicator of covid and their information fed into govt guidelines. (The app has a list of almost 20 symptoms).

It's very easy to do - you just say you're feeling normal or not. If not, there are a few more questions. When I was ill with a kidney infection in Nov my symptoms (high temp I think) led to me getting a test through the app - I don't know if I'd have got one otherwise.

I personally think it will be great to have this oversight of the health of the nation, post-vaccine.

https://covid.joinzoe.com/vaccines


----------



## Pat-H

jiwawa said:


> Might I suggest that when you've had your vaccine you log it with the Zoe app which is running the largest community study into the effects of the vaccine? They have almost 110,000 vaccines logged so far.
> 
> In fact, if you don't already do so you could start logging your symptoms now. I've been logging my symptoms daily from almost the beginning of the pandemic and, having over 4.55 million users, they are able to submit useful, real-time info to the government - they are able to see pockets of rising infection before these become apparent through test results. The Zoe covid app was the first to be aware of the loss of smell/taste as an indicator of covid and their information fed into govt guidelines. (The app has a list of almost 20 symptoms).
> 
> It's very easy to do - you just say you're feeling normal or not. If not, there are a few more questions. When I was ill with a kidney infection in Nov my symptoms (high temp I think) led to me getting a test through the app - I don't know if I'd have got one otherwise.
> 
> I personally think it will be great to have this oversight of the health of the nation, post-vaccine.
> 
> https://covid.joinzoe.com/vaccines


I've been using the app from very early on as well. It also tells me how the infection rates change in my local area so I can be aware of changes to risk.


----------



## barryd

Pat-H said:


> I've been using the app from very early on as well. It also tells me how the infection rates change in my local area so I can be aware of changes to risk.


probably posted this before but this is a good map and probably the most up to date. You can put in your postcode or even better just zoom in to districts or even town level and see what the rates are anywhere in the uk.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map

I presume its just confirmed cases but it gives you a good idea.


----------



## aldra

Vaccine done

Organisation brilliant, local venue, on time, 15 mins to wait in waiting area after receiving the vaccine in case of after effects

Doing 500 + a day 

1 of 8 centres in Bury giving the vaccine 

Sandra


----------



## Pat-H

aldra said:


> Vaccine done
> 
> Organisation brilliant, local venue, on time, 15 mins to wait in waiting area after receiving the vaccine in case of after effects
> 
> Doing 500 + a day
> 
> 1 of 8 centres in Bury giving the vaccine
> 
> Sandra


That works out at around 4 months to give everyone in Bury their 2 doses. Assuming they can keep that supply up and operate 7 days a week for those months.


----------



## Penquin

UK total now over 4.25 million people given first dose, to me, that is an excellent figure and shows how hard the NHS Staff are working to give this potentially life saving vaccine.

No if's, no but's the figure is very, very impressive.

Give praise where it's due, and it's certainly due to the staff ramping this up so rapidly.


----------



## aldra

Yes that’s the glass half empty Pat

The glass half full celebrates that fact that in about 4 months we may well get most of Bury vaccinated

Most of Bury no longer at risk of death from Covid , many more safe as antibodies fight the disease

Of course that depends on everyone agreeing to have the vaccine , many it seems don’t , although I don’t know if that applies to Bury, but I suspect it may well 

A repeat of those who refuse to have their child vaccinated and instead rely on others to have their kids vaccinated and present a risk to those who because of genuine Heath reasons are unable to be vaccinated 

But then again government not withstanding some people think only of themselves 

Sandra


----------



## erneboy

THe figures are excellent. It is a great effort, but the optimism for the end of Feb, Easter or even the summer, returning to foreign holidays and all that?

The figures don't lie. The time frame is easy to calculate. Maybe they can "ramp it up" but even so we are looking at the end of this year at best for something approaching normality.

By all means disagree with me, but first get your calculator out. Do it in your head even, round all they are doing up and even then it's sill a good way off, even though the effort is great and what they are doing is excellent. I'm not knocking, far from it I think it's impressive. I am doing some simple maths though. Try it for yourself, then you'll get the real picture.


----------



## patp

Norfolk, as usual, is doing it the slow way. Still lots of over 80's to vaccinate. We do have a very high concentration of elderly here. I think it is possibly the highest in the country. Never mind we will get there eventually.


----------



## aldra

erneboy said:


> THe figures are excellent. It is a great effort, but the optimism for the end of Feb, Easter or even the summer, returning to foreign holidays and all that?
> 
> The figures don't lie. The time frame is easy to calculate. Maybe they can "ramp it up" but even so we are looking at the end of this year at best for something approaching normality.
> 
> By all means disagree with me, but first get your calculator out. Do it in your head even, round all they are doing up and even then it's sill a good way off, even though the effort is great and what they are doing is excellent. I'm not knocking, far from it I think it's impressive. I am doing some simple maths though. Try it for yourself, then you'll get the real picture.


Yes but it is a pandemic

And we are doing our best

It's excellent, we've lived a year in lockdown with a few blips

But now we are rolling out a vaccine, believe it a vaccine, that people have actually managed to produce

A vaccine that has managed to transform our future, we well manage to to beat this virus

We may well help to stop it in its tracks in poor countries

Now that's worth celebrating

Some people somewhere have managed to produce a vaccine that could well stop a pandemic

How miraculous is that

Sandra


----------



## erneboy

I see that what's being done is excellent.

Didn't you understand that? I said it in several ways, just so you'd understand it.

I also see the maths.


----------



## dghr272

1610 “Blips” reported today.


----------



## H1-GBV

Yes Sandra, it is wonderful news that a number of vaccines have been invented and that salvation is on the horizon. :smile2:

BUT "we" are not doing "our" best.

Some people are working fantastically hard and doing a magnificent job: all praise to them.

BUT what about the innumerable doctor's surgeries which are having to cancel inoculations because the amount of vaccine which they've been promised hasn't materialised?
What physical and mental effect does that have on those who've organised transport and helpers (because a lot of "clients" are elderly and cannot cope without assistance)?
Is that just a "blip" to be ignored or is it incompetence at the top, produced because announcing a "ramping up" of the numbers is more important than actually delivering them?

I heard World Health Organization chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said _"We need to close the gap between intent and implementation at the country and individual level,"_

As for "poor countries" the British Medical Journal ran this article last week:
_Covid-19: Many poor countries will see almost no vaccine next year, aid groups warn
_ :frown2:
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4809

One expert is suggesting that it would be better to immunise elderly in 3rd World countries rather than healthy young people in 1st World Countries: what do you think?
Are we all in this together or should we just look after our own?
Should people in the UK who can pay for it get preferential access to the vaccines?

Yes, by all means celebrate the great progress but do not believe everything that you are told by this Government.

And as Alan says, do some maths.
By yesterday there were 3,687,206 1st doses, 431,136 2nd doses giving a cumulative Total of 4,118,342. 
In 12 weeks time they will need to be starting 3,687,206 2nd doses so as to maintain that rate of new jabs then the number of inoculations will have to double. :nerd:
Does that sound feasible?
Or is it more smoke and mirrors from a number of politicians who have spent the last years selling snake oil?

Gordon


----------



## Penquin

At present it is not the injection of the vaccine, but it's delivery that is causing concerns.

IF there were unlimited quantities of vaccine available 24/7 then criticism could be levelled and those using it, but EVERY dose of any of the vaccines is required to be checked for quality before it can be used.

Manufacturers are producing it 24/7 but the UK is not the only contract that has to be fulfilled, virtually every country has pre-ordered the Pfizer vaccine in mind blowing quantities.

No-one should be given priority - it should be dispatched on a worldwide basis WHERE IT CAN BE USED.

That cuts out the use of the Pfizer and the Moderna vaccines in most of Africa, South America, China, India - in other words the centres of vast numbers of the world's population. They cannot use it because it is too delicate and has to be stored at -70C or -17C depending on the vaccine. Those low temperatures cannot be supplied in a controlled manner - so sending the vaccine there would simply waste the doses and could give false reassurance.

Within the U.K. the doses should be delivered to the areas with most need first, then down to areas with a lower need and probably a lower infection rate. The vials should be FULLY used - the "excess" over the 5 stated doses, stated by the manufacturer as 0.3 ml should be used, but most vials actually contain 2.2ml i.e. often enough god 7 dose, but that cannot be relied upon as there will be a small amount of wastage, drawing up the dose. Thus 6 doses is now calculated but the sixth dose cannot be relied upon - it depends on the skill of the person drawing it up.

It would be wrong to tell an 85 year old to come down for the vaccine, and then find there is insufficient, but keeping a reserve list of younger people is justifiable - "we have a dose, come here now" type call.

I think the distribution is going well, there will always be people who others say should be further down the list, or not vaccinated at all. That is absolutely normal.

The process of actually developing the vaccines has been tackled VERY rapidly by more than 150 different companies - not all of which will ever work. All of us should be grateful, not critical of what has been and is being done..

No, people should not be allowed to jump the queue using a cheque card as a pole to vault the queue. Sadly, such things can rarely be levelled at Countries, there are economic forces that none of us has ever encountered, or understood. I doubt that however much we complain on here anything will change.

But, the speed with which vaccinations can be gone and is being fine at present is limited by supply, new centres are being opened every week, getting staff will always be the biggest challenge, professional staff are in short supply but volunteers can now be used for done roles under professional supervision. That will increase the speed on a regular basis. It is possible to use volunteers in that manner, but the Nightingale hospitals require professional experienced staff willing and capable to work often independently due to staff shortages - do not a place for volunteers however willing they may be.


----------



## jiwawa

I was at the surgery last week having bloods done. I asked the nurse if the practice was looking for volunteers for delivery of the vaccine n she said no; she'd be willing to work extra shifts but hadn't been approached.

Her sister-in-law was on a list of volunteers, having done all the training, but hadn't been contacted. 

Hopefully that's all cos they're coming down with volunteers rather than that they haven't got started.


----------



## bilbaoman

The roll out of the vaccine in the UK is the only success story so far but the UK is not alone none of the countries in the northen hemisphere have responded very well the best response as been Australia Newzealand the asian countries and of cause China but i dont think their methods would be acceptable in any democratic country.


----------



## patp

They have chosen a strange place to set up a mass vaccination centre here in Norfolk. It is in a shopping mall right in the middle of Norwich. Not just that but, due to needing access to cold storage it is in the food hall which is at the top of the mall accessed by lifts from the car park or via an escalator.

Why they thought that bringing people to an indoor environment and asking them to walk through it to get to the vaccine hub was a good idea is beyond me. Many elderly people in Norfolk have not been to Norwich for over forty years! I have heard of them refusing to go because of this. We always tell the story of our elderly neighbour, opposite, when asked about Norwich saying in broad Norfolk accent "Narich, Narich? I went thar once - di'nt like it - so di'nt go agin".


----------



## raynipper

Just got this from our niece Pat.

_Aah well it's clear your friend also hasn't been to Norwich in a long time too! The food hall at the top level of the castle mall is a genius location for the vaccination point. Firstly, as mentioned, fridges abound, also space, it's vast both in footprint and cathedral-like height which, due to multiple entry points, has perfect air flow in addition to ventilation fans. Ample space for well distanced patient and staff comfort, a glass roof for lots of daylight. It's also located in Castlemeadow which is a major hub for county busses. This vaccination point is obviously for able bodied and for those not able to travel, the vaccines are taken to them . Also, it's only the Norwich one, there are others dotted around the county too, my own GP surgery for example. _

Ray.


----------



## bilbaoman

It looks like the dip in the number of vacinations given per day is due to supply problems from Pfzer who have reduced their production to upgrade the factory and the reduced supply will continue untill mid Feb


----------



## Penquin

The rebuilding of the Pfizer factory hit the headlines last week, Angela Merkel in particular was furious, as were many other European leaders.

AFAIK Boris has made no mention of it......


----------



## bilbaoman

AT least the impact on the UK will be less than the EU as they dont have the cheap and cheerfull Oxford vaccine yet


----------



## patp

raynipper said:


> Just got this from our niece Pat.
> 
> _Aah well it's clear your friend also hasn't been to Norwich in a long time too! The food hall at the top level of the castle mall is a genius location for the vaccination point. Firstly, as mentioned, fridges abound, also space, it's vast both in footprint and cathedral-like height which, due to multiple entry points, has perfect air flow in addition to ventilation fans. Ample space for well distanced patient and staff comfort, a glass roof for lots of daylight. It's also located in Castlemeadow which is a major hub for county busses. This vaccination point is obviously for able bodied and for those not able to travel, the vaccines are taken to them . Also, it's only the Norwich one, there are others dotted around the county too, my own GP surgery for example. _
> 
> Ray.


Ha, ha she is right! I don't like malls so, although I have been to it, I would not be able to describe it as she does. Not sure about people having to use buses though  The complaints from local people about it have all been about the less able members of society getting there. We, for instance have no bus service in our village. This means they need to be driven and then transfer from the multi story car park to the food hall. As it is them that are being targeted for vaccination first it still seems a bit strange. Our GP is using Poringland as a vaccination hub which, I understand, is much more user friendly.


----------



## Penquin

Bus ? What's a bus ?


----------



## patp

There seems to be some mis match between NHS England and local GPs. Our surgery has published guidelines telling us that NHS England may call people to go to a mass vaccination hub. The same people may get called by the GP surgery to go to a GP hub. I have heard GP's moaning about NHS England on other occasions too.


----------



## H1-GBV

Penquin said:


> At present it is not the injection of the vaccine, but it's delivery that is causing concerns.
> 
> IF there were unlimited quantities of vaccine available 24/7 then criticism could be levelled and those using it, but EVERY dose of any of the vaccines is required to be checked for quality before it can be used.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> But, the speed with which vaccinations can be gone and is being fine at present is limited by supply, .


And that is the nub of the problem Dave.

Do you remember the great announcements?

_*In May, the UK government said AstraZeneca would make up to 30 million doses available by September for people in the UK.*_

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-qa-how-much-coronavirus-vaccine-do-we-have

Perhaps I missed the equally big announcement when the Government admitted that this was an intention, or an aspiration, but they "now" (July? Sep? Dec?) realised that it was Fake News? Could you highlight it for me please? :smile2:

Presumably you saw/heard the Home Secretary this morning?

_*Priti Patel: There will be 'inconsistencies' in vaccine rollout as demand is 'beyond comprehension'*_

I'm not a statistician but I would guess that demand worldwide would be approx 5 billion (omitting U18s) and around 50 million in the UK.
The Government seem able to comprehend that keeping the extra £20 per week on UC will cost £6 billion so big numbers are within their frame of understanding.

Please consider my earlier quote:
I heard World Health Organization chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said "We need to close *the gap between intent and implementation* at the country and individual level,"

Thanks - Gordon

[I'll be generous and admit that ONE might be construed as "up to 30M" :wink2:]


----------



## Penquin

Problems do not just exist in the U.K......

Our appointments for the two injections have both been cancelled - the Centres do not have the Pfizer vaccine.....

The Pfizer factory is working at VERY reduced capacity as they have just started rebuilding it - as was announced a couple of weeks ago

They gave virtually no notice of the impact - at least an 18% reduction but in theory, much more available from March onwards

https://www.ft.com/content/e8177df6-04ae-4d20-8e62-ca76589c7653


----------



## raynipper

I have been trying to call for an appointment since early am monday. Finally get through to a person who informs me there is no availability for even a rendezvous and to try calling again in Feb.

Ray.


----------



## Penquin

Sounds like the same problem as around here, they don't know when, or even "if" they will get any, that makes planning impossible for them and us..... 😢


----------



## barryd

Not good news from Israel.

I wonder what this means for the Tory gamble to spread the vaccine doses apart three months against the instructions of the vaccine producers

https://tinyurl.com/y4tx39wn


----------



## raynipper

Oh ****. Everyone rushing to get the 'cure' and it's not happening. 

Ray.


----------



## erneboy

raynipper said:


> Oh ****. Everyone rushing to get the 'cure' and it's not happening.
> 
> Ray.


I expect they will just maintain that it's fine and carry on with the 12 week policy. It was a political decision and a gamble. It may yet work.

It would have been safest to stick to the manufacturers advice.


----------



## aldra

I had my first vaccine on Tuesday

Wednesday a sore heavy arm, not feeling so well a bit flu...y 

Albert the same although he had a headache on waking

Today a bit better but joints have been particularly sore today

The symptoms are common, at least the sore arm, headache flu type feelings

I wonder if the flare up in my joints is due to antibodies I already have, and added antibodies introduced 

I need to be well by Sat , my teeth implants have failed so now I will have implants secured into my cheek bones

Complications with health mean I need a consultant anaesthetist, not a dental anaesthetist to administer a particular sedative , I can’t tolerate Adrenaline, which reduces bleeding and I take anticoagulants because of an irregular heart beat and replacement tissue aortic valve, adrenaline sends my heart into overdrive 

The guy putting in the implants is one of few who can use this method, he does reconstruction surgery following cancer or accidents

I haven’t met him but we have talked on the phone

If it goes well I will have teeth permanently secured in my mouth

A greater advantage in the young 

As he said I can guarantee they will last a minimum of 10 years, well that will make me 87 I said, beyond that it’s unlikely to matter

Don’t say that he said , £ for £ not a great bargain for me

It’s the kids inheritance and they all say go for it mum 

So I am, fingers crossed for sat

I am a bit anxious 

Sandra


----------



## Pat-H

How good of them.

BBC News - Birmingham mosque becomes UK's first to offer Covid vaccine
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-55752056


----------



## aldra

why, how good?

This is a pandemic, as you so frequently point out thousands have died, Moslems , non Muslims, old people, 
nHS workers , and normal people

So a Moslem centre has opened for vaccines

Sorry not before time

No one has excluded Moslems from the vaccination programme in our towns and cities 

So now we need to celebrate a mosque has opened to provide vaccines ?

Why would that be needed?

We are all in this together, religion not withstanding, all BRITiSH people treated exactly the same 

You can have the vaccine regardless of faith, no discrimination

But

Sandra


----------



## erneboy

Why is it good?

It's good because it is the clearest possible message to Muslims that the stupid gossip doing the rounds which says that being vaccinated is forbidden by their religion is complete cobblers.


----------



## Pat-H

If its not good them the implication is its bad.

We know ethnic groups in the UK have been disadvantaged and marginalized before the pandemic and during the pandemic. There is still no response of action to address the fact that so many BAME people in the UK are dying.

So its understandable they are cautious and concerned about a vaccination programme that has addressed those issues.

So yes I stand by the statement its good that we are seeing a supportive step to helping those people get the protection they more than deserve.


----------



## aldra

Well I’m guessing quite a lot of people from different and no denominations are reluctant to have the vaccine 

So perhaps we should arrange to give it in synagogues, churches etc to keep it inclusive 

It would be interesting to see how many people and from what religious background are refusing the vaccine

Much of the black community are Christian or a denomination other than Muslim 

Sandra


----------



## Penquin

Perhaps, if the synagogues and churches had suitable facilities they would be considered.

Mosques generally have a very large central space and lots of small rooms, the large space does not have pews etc that might need to be cleared as churches have.

It also is in the centre of that population, a population that has expressed severe distrust in the vaccines often on such falsehoods as they may contain pork products - totally untrue.

The welcome given by the Imam represents the welcome that I have ecperienced in Mosques. As has been said it is a very strong message to all local and more distant Muslims that everything about the vaccine is safe and acceptable to the Islamic faith. That may well serve to remove a barrier to being vaccinated.

To me, there is more than enough justification for opening in a Mosque, or ANY suitable place.


----------



## erneboy

aldra said:


> Well I'm guessing quite a lot of people from different and no denominations are reluctant to have the vaccine
> ............
> 
> Sandra


That's right.

The thing is that so far there hasn't been any stupid chat doing the rounds saying that it's against any other religion. This Imam's reaction to the nonsense about it being against his religion was to give the clearest possible message that it isn't. Good for him.

Perhaps if there was a similar rumour saying it was against the teachings of the C of E or the Catholic church they'd react in the same way to show that it isn't.


----------



## bilbaoman

For me the more diverse places that are used the better if it increases the take up of the vaccine i would even go to a conservative or labour club for my shot.


----------



## aldra

It’s a pity pubs are closed, they would be an excellent venue

Not all churches have fixed pews Dave, many are wide open spaces with removable seating 

That applies to a great many places of worship in this modern age 

Sandra


----------



## bilbaoman

aldra said:


> It's a pity pubs are closed, they would be an excellent venue
> 
> Not all churches have fixed pews Dave, many are wide open spaces with removable seating
> 
> That applies to a great many places of worship in this modern age
> 
> Sandra


A business opportunity for wetherspoons :smile2::smile2:They could offer a voucher for a free pint with every vaccine :laugh::laugh:


----------



## Penquin

aldra said:


> It's a pity pubs are closed, they would be an excellent venue
> 
> Not all churches have fixed pews Dave, many are wide open spaces with removable seating
> 
> That applies to a great many places of worship in this modern age
> 
> Sandra


Pubs are generally too small and often have carpeted floors, they cannot be cleaned effectively, agree Churches frequently do not have fixed pews but removing any seating requires manpower, Mosques do not need that input, often have (beautifully) tiled floors which can be cleaned to a satisfactory state very efficiently.

There is no particular advantage in using Mosques, unless the one being used is in an area where the Islamic faith predominates - as you have said before, people tend to like living in areas where there are other like-minded people living. Perhaps that is why this Mosque was considered suitable along with its space and facilities.

It has been said before that the BAME community may be at particular risk, for a variety of possible reasons, fear of potentially infringing the tenets of one's faith may be one, just one, of those reasons. Using a Mosque to demonstrate the fallacy of possible infringements may be an important demonstration, as was said before.


----------



## erneboy

bilbaoman said:


> A business opportunity for wetherspoons :smile2::smile2:They could offer a voucher for a free pint with every vaccine :laugh::laugh:


We were guessing on here that what with Timothy being a big mucker of The Clown that might happen. I'm surprised it didn't. There's still time.


----------



## Pat-H

More hostile immigration efforts.
What's the point in denying vaccines to certain groups in society?
Dont we want and need coverage?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...id-vaccine-england?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other


----------



## jiwawa

Pat-H said:


> More hostile immigration efforts.
> What's the point in denying vaccines to certain groups in society?
> Dont we want and need coverage?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...id-vaccine-england?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other


That is SO short-sighted, as well as being immoral.

The article says "Staff at one hospital set up a separate system to vaccinate workers with and without NHS numbers - but were later advised not to do so and to follow the NIVS protocol instead.

"We've decided that's wrong," said the source. "We're vaccinating them anyway, then we're asking them to register afterwards and we'll put them on the system retrospectively."

Good on them and shame on those who advised them to stop. I just hope they don't face a court case or similar.


----------



## erneboy

I was going to say that it seemed to me that vaccinating them would be widely seen as the right thing to do and that a court case or discipline was unlikely. But actually I'm not so sure given the public mood in the UK these days.


----------



## bilbaoman

Pat-H said:


> More hostile immigration efforts.
> What's the point in denying vaccines to certain groups in society?
> Dont we want and need coverage?
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...id-vaccine-england?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other


If you bother to read the whole article the NHS state that its untrue


----------



## erneboy

If you bother to think about it you will realise that an NHS spokesman may well be a long way away from the reality. 

I am always distrustful of unattributed sources. "A source close to" "A spokesman for" "An insider" If the source of the denial is reliable and the denial is useful why not name the person saying it. 

One the one hand we have the person the story came from wanting to be anonymus, with good reason, while the official spokesperson feels the need to do so too with no earthly reason what so ever. Which is the more credible?

I'd conclude that it's a denial from on high issued as a matter of course. I'd say that for most people it will do the job.


----------



## jiwawa

Penquin said:


> ... The welcome given by the Imam represents the welcome that I have ecperienced in Mosques.


Totally off-topic but that remark reminded me of when my daughter and I were walking past a large mosque in Doha during the call to prayer. I decided it would be interesting to see the women's quarters.

But as we walked towards the entrance we were yelled at from a distance by a guard on duty, with a rifle, who became very rude and aggressive. I'm not sure if it was the Western dress (tho perfectly demure) or the colour of skin but my daughter thought I would be arrested and she was going to have to call the consulate!


----------



## jiwawa

erneboy said:


> The thing is that so far there hasn't been any stupid chat doing the rounds saying that it's against any other religion.


Jon Snow (Ch4 News) was having his vaccination at his local centre n the organiser had said that they DID have problems encouraging Jewish people to turn up. But I don't know why.


----------



## erneboy

Against their religion?


----------



## jiwawa

Well, many of the Jews in Israel have already been vaccinated. Unless the local Jews are a particular group.


----------



## raynipper

I'm still trying to book ours but everywhere is full and I have been told to call again Feb.1st.

Ray.


----------



## bilbaoman

raynipper said:


> I'm still trying to book ours but everywhere is full and I have been told to call again Feb.1st.
> 
> Ray.


You are lucky i am 78 and have been told it will be April May in Spain for me it may be for sale on Ebay before then:frown2::frown2::frown2:


----------



## Pat-H

So the BMA is extremely concerned with the governments decision to have a 12 week gap between the 2 vaccine doses.
A decision that hasnt been tested and has no clear medical foundation could risk undermining the vaccine process.
If instead of a measured rollout that's effective we get a faster thinner spread that leaves people vulnerable before their second jab we risk exposing people who think they are safe.

BBC News - Covid: Gap between Pfizer vaccine doses should be halved, say doctors
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55777084


----------



## Penquin

The worry must be that by the 12 week deadline, the immune response in the person may have dropped sufficiently that the second vaccination will be treated by the body as a FIRST antigen exposure - meaning that the full immune response would not be developed if the Pfizer vaccine is delayed....

I doubt that a THIRD vaccination would be approved, so by delaying the second Pfizer vaccine, it may well be that far from increasing immunity, it could actually result in a large number of people falsely believing that they have immunity, when they don't.

The same cannot be said for the AZ vaccine where a 12 week gap seems to be acceptable to develop full immunity.

I hope that records ARE being kept of who is getting which vaccine, or that Tory are being told and will remember........

Yet another worry caused by the ignoring advice that BoJo seems to force through.... against BMA, WHO and all other informed bodies.


----------



## dghr272

*How they attack the truth when it highlights their incompetence*

Yorkshire post stands by their report despite numerous organised attacks by the Tories.

"They don't like it upem"

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/new...ffort-national-interest-letter-editor-3109891

Terry


----------



## Pat-H

dghr272 said:


> Yorkshire post stands by their report despite numerous organised attacks by the Tories.
> 
> "They don't like it upem"
> 
> https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/new...ffort-national-interest-letter-editor-3109891
> 
> Terry


The truth can't be made public. The lies have to win out. 
The Tories will find ways to bury those seeking the truth.


----------



## bilbaoman

Thats it locked down again for the sixth time with different rules
lock down 
1 lock down in house only allowed out to buy food (only one person)
2 AS above but allowed 1 hour exercise within 1km of house
3 Allowed out but only in own town
4 AS above but allowed to visit next town 
5 Allowed out can travel in own county but 10pm to6am curfew
6 As of monday allowed out in own town only 10pm to 6am curfew


----------



## bilbaoman

Not looking good if you live in the EU the chance of getting the vaccine soon is receeding the EU should get 81 million doses of the Oxford vaccine in the first quarter this as been reduced to 31million doses


----------



## bilbaoman

Looks like if you are near the top of the list in France you may get your first jab quicker they are recommending 6 weeks between doses now not 3 weeks as recoended by the maker


----------



## bilbaoman

More restrictions for us we have been declared a red area all bars and restaurants to close no more than 4 people together but no change in curfew


----------



## Penquin

bilbaoman said:


> More restrictions for us we have been declared a red area all bars and restaurants to close no more than 4 people together but no change in curfew


Just to save me and others checking, where are you ? Obviously not France or U.K. as "bars and restaurants" are just a distant memory and a fervent wish....

Your "Location" says East Midlands but I somehow doubt that as I believe "East Midlands" is part of the UK unless you have declared UDI and followed Sturgeon's greatest wish - to be free of Johnson AND the UK....


----------



## bilbaoman

I see the Eu are not happy with Astra Zeneca because their Eu supply chain can only supply 31 million doses of the 80 million promised they have problems in their Belgium factory perhaps the Germans will send some of the extra doses they have purchased to help make up the shortfall


----------



## Penquin

The Pasteur Institute (Paris) has abandoned CoVid vaccine trials.

This one was in Phase 1 trials, based on the Measles vaccine, the Institute has two other vaccines currently at the preclinical stage, not yet tested on human beings.

https://www.connexionfrance.com/Fre...il&utm_term=0_9b5fbe85b4-6a3496c851-358495333

It would seem that any scheme to use a French vaccine has failed.


----------



## patp

Oh no, that is a shame.


----------



## bilbaoman

Penquin said:


> The Pasteur Institute (Paris) has abandoned CoVid vaccine trials.
> 
> This one was in Phase 1 trials, based on the Measles vaccine, the Institute has two other vaccines currently at the preclinical stage, not yet tested on human beings.
> 
> https://www.connexionfrance.com/Fre...il&utm_term=0_9b5fbe85b4-6a3496c851-358495333
> 
> It would seem that any scheme to use a French vaccine has failed.


Isuppose you could call Valneva a French company its offices are in France its vaccine is in phase 2 testing and will be used in the EU and UK will be produced in Scotland i think the EU problem is they ordered late and forced the price down so now supplies are tight the countries who paid the most are getting served first


----------



## tonytca

bilbaoman said:


> I see the Eu are not happy with Astra Zeneca because their Eu supply chain can only supply 31 million doses of the 80 million promised they have problems in their Belgium factory perhaps the Germans will send some of the extra doses they have purchased to help make up the shortfall


They could always water it down i doubt if anyone would notice. As for taking the jab for me....err no. I don't fancy being a genetically modified tomato. The U.S. VAERS vaccine reporting database has logged THOUSANDS of serious adverse reactions and its only been rolled out since early January. 148 people have died within hours or few days of taking the covid vax. Anyways even if you believe it might work you still have to wear a mask, social distance, self isolate etc and your van still has to sit on the drive. So basically there is nothing to gain from having it and a lot to lose when it goes wrong.


----------



## raynipper

I guess these are regarded as acceptable numbers in the grand scheme of Covid deaths overall.

Ray.


----------



## erneboy

tonytca said:


> They could always water it down i doubt if anyone would notice. As for taking the jab for me....err no. I don't fancy being a genetically modified tomato. The U.S. VAERS vaccine reporting database has logged THOUSANDS of serious adverse reactions and its only been rolled out since early January. 148 people have died within hours or few days of taking the covid vax. Anyways even if you believe it might work you still have to wear a mask, social distance, self isolate etc and your van still has to sit on the drive. So basically there is nothing to gain from having it and a lot to lose when it goes wrong.


Nothing to gain except that it may be the only way to allow society to return to something approaching normal.

Perhaps you have some other proposal as to how that can be done?


----------



## Penquin

I have just reported tonytca's post as misinformation.

The contents are untrue and biased against vaccines, these sort of posts should be removed in line with the laws governing social media.

Please report to increase likelihood.

21 cases of anaphylaxis ALL WITHIN 13 minutes (Manufacturers use says must remain under supervision for 15 minutes) out of over 21 MILLION doses given..... roughly one in a million chance. ALL were people with a history of severe anaphylactic reactions - such people SHOULD NOT receive the vaccine under US, UK OR EU usage as recommended by the manufacturer.

Feel free to read the summary;

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7002e1.htm


----------



## dghr272

erneboy said:


> Nothing to gain except that it may be the only way to allow society to return to something approaching normal.
> 
> *Perhaps you have some other proposal as to how that can be done*?


An interesting question.

Terry


----------



## jiwawa

Considering the vaccine has been administered to the very elderly so far it is not at all surprising that some will die within a short time of receiving the vaccine - that is not to say that the vaccine was the cause of their deaths.

Also, the Zoe Covid Symptoms app are saying it's clear from data they have so far that vaccination gives NO benefit for the first couple of weeks. After that there's a steady reduction in risk - he mentioned 50% but it wasn't clear in what time frame.

So even when we get the vaccine it will make no difference AT ALL for the first couple of weeks or so, so we must continue to behave as if we all have it - social distance, masks, hand-washing.


----------



## dghr272

Penquin said:


> I have just reported tonytca's post as misinformation.
> 
> The contents are untrue and biased against vaccines, these sort of posts should be removed in line with the laws governing social media.
> 
> Please report to increase likelihood.
> 
> 21 cases of anaphylaxis ALL WITHIN 13 minutes (Manufacturers use says must remain under supervision for 15 minutes) out of over 21 MILLION doses given..... roughly one in a million chance. ALL were people with a history of severe anaphylactic reactions - such people SHOULD NOT receive the vaccine under US, UK OR EU usage as recommended by the manufacturer.
> 
> Feel free to read the summary;
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7002e1.htm


I suspect it's some sort of drivel picked up from the likes of Qanon that slowly attempts to gain traction as a creditable theory.
Hence my interest in a response to Alan's query.

Terry


----------



## barryd

Talk about rotten luck. An old retired farmer friend of mine who lives on his own and who I have been supporting for a year remotely (helping with shopping etc, general chatting etc) was due to get his vaccine on Friday. Took ill two days ago and is now in hospital in Durham with Covid. He says he has been pretty much shielding for a year but he let slip a week or two ago that someone came to his house to collect something and was later diagnosed with covid. Its clearly that easy. He says the whole floor he is on is full of Covid patients and some of them are in a terrible state. He reckons anyone who doesnt want the vaccine is stark raving mad.


----------



## jiwawa

That is so hard to hear Barry. I hope he's one of the lucky ones.

I've noticed in conversation with people that they'll say "I never go anywhere..." And then you'll find, in the course of conversation, that they've been out for lunch with 2 other households, and they've been somewhere else with a group of workmates for coffee... 

Admittedly this was when you were allowed to sit in for lunch or coffee... But still, they convinced themselves they weren't indulging in risky behaviour when they clearly were.

I'm a day late but "Oh would some power the giftie gie us tae see oorsels as ithers see us".


----------



## erneboy

Sorry to hear that Baz. I remember you mentioning that chap before. I hope he's OK.


----------



## patp

Oh dear. Such a worry. As we are building our bungalow it is really hard to manage the build and not meet with people. Luckily it is mostly outside, in the fresh air with people that work outside, in the fresh air all the time. There have been rumours that some of the roofers on the house opposite have had covid but they are young men who do seem more cavalier about the risks. Having said all this we engaged a carpenter by recommendation and over the phone only for him to turn up and ask to see the plans. He knocked on the door and bustled his way in to the kitchen! He is an older guy so I just hope that he has not been engaging in risky pursuits.


----------



## bilbaoman

Looks like Pfzers buy five get one free offer is ending they have now billed Sweden for 6 shots in a bottle


----------



## patp

I think they were finding that experienced practitioners were getting six out of a bottle so it is not their fault if novices can only get five doses.


----------



## dghr272

patp said:


> I think they were finding that experienced practitioners were getting six out of a bottle so it is not their fault if novices can only get five doses.


Our neighbour treatment room nurse was teaching her doctors how not to waste and get the maximum from vials.
Docs. she says have a habit of drawing off from the vial then removing the needle and squirting in the air to clear air from the syringe, wasting vaccination in the process. Her tip was to draw from the vial and express the air and ensure the correct dose whilst the vial is upside down, then remove needle from vial cap.

I was astounded as she said it took them quite a while to perfect the simple method. They appear to like seeing the drama of it squirt in the air ?????

Terry


----------



## Mrplodd

Goes to show that most Dr's have very little practice in regards to injections, unlike nurses. I will *always * try and get a nurse to give me any form of injection. Practice makes perfect !


----------



## erneboy

The over educated and common sense can often be strangers.


----------



## H1-GBV

Mrplodd said:


> Goes to show that most Dr's have very little practice in regards to injections, unlike nurses. I will *always * try and get a nurse to give me any form of injection. Practice makes perfect !


I can't recall a doctor ever giving me an injection.

I suspect with these vaccines you will have no choice about who gives it to you AND you will be grateful to whoever it is. :smile2:

Gordon


----------



## swanny65

Penquin said:


> The worry must be that by the 12 week deadline, the immune response in the person may have dropped sufficiently that the second vaccination will be treated by the body as a FIRST antigen exposure - meaning that the full immune response would not be developed if the Pfizer vaccine is delayed....
> 
> I doubt that a THIRD vaccination would be approved, so by delaying the second Pfizer vaccine, it may well be that far from increasing immunity, it could actually result in a large number of people falsely believing that they have immunity, when they don't.
> 
> The same cannot be said for the AZ vaccine where a 12 week gap seems to be acceptable to develop full immunity.
> 
> I hope that records ARE being kept of who is getting which vaccine, or that Tory are being told and will remember........
> 
> Yet another worry caused by the ignoring advice that BoJo seems to force through.... against BMA, WHO and all other informed bodies.


Took my old mum to get her jab last Thursday at a local chemists. She was given a card with the date (21 Jan), type of vaccine (AZ) and batch number (AB0003). Cant remember the exact second jab date but it is early April, following the 12 week rule. The pharmacist told us that they would notify her GP and her surgery would update her records.

Father-in-law who had the Pfizer vaccine a week earlier has also got a second jab date - unfortunately about 12 weeks later...


----------



## jiwawa

Have you any idea if they're recording the ethnicity of the vaccine recipients? They say they need that info to see what the uptake is in the BAME community and try to encourage where necessary.


----------



## Penquin

swanny65 said:


> Took my old mum to get her jab last Thursday at a local chemists. She was given a card with the date (21 Jan), type of vaccine (AZ) and batch number (AB0003). Cant remember the exact second jab date but it is early April, following the 12 week rule. The pharmacist told us that they would notify her GP and her surgery would update her records.
> 
> Father-in-law who had the Pfizer vaccine a week earlier has also got a second jab date - unfortunately about 12 weeks later...


Thanks for that info about a card, it's the first time that I have heard about it and to me, that seems highly desirable and COULD be used as a gateway at borders along with a negative test.

The concerns that I have had about the 12 week gap were addressed today and it was reassuring to hear that there is no likelihood of the level of immune response dropping below the level that will trigger the enhanced second exposure levels.

I still have concerns that they seem to be cherry-picking bits from each of the three vaccines;

1. the AZ gap as the AZ results support a higher level of response,

2. The Moderna ability to work with the variants - with a statement that "the Pfizer is similar to the Moderna, in that they are both mRNA vaccines"

3. The high level of antibody production as found by the Pfizer research after the first dose.

Is it correct to take what suits what you have chosen to do, from unconnected areas of research ? Very questionable to me.

Cherry-picking is not the same as following the science advice, but picking points for political reasons, in a similar potentially dangerous manner as delaying lockdowns one and two, allowing big sporting events to go ahead such as the Cambridge Festival and the Liverpool/Spanish football match, or failing to have an efficient testing or tracing system and certainly no integration when it was needed.

Couple that with "Go out to restaurants and help (spread the virus and) the economy." and the numerous examples of cronieism that seem to have been encountered in such giekds as ferries, PPE, laptops, test and trace, the infamous non-functional app., or even to much vaunted, but unstaffable Nightingale Units and to me, it seems clear to me that when Johnson said "as PM I am responsible for ALL of the Government's actions" that will be tested in a Court following the untimely death of just one person, perhaps due to a lack of PPE, or instructions to transfer elderly positive people to Care Homes.

There are MANY questions to be answered, sadly, I doubt that we will ever be allowed to hear the answers.


----------



## raynipper

Some people will go to any lengths to get the jab.

https://www.newhamburgindependent.c...bs-locals-say-now-they-face-charges-and-fury/

Ray.


----------



## Penquin

Chartered aircraft.... 😳

Living in plush hotel.... 😳

Facing fines or court appearances.... 😁

Fortunately they were easily shown up by a simple phone call.... 👏

I am sure such actions are far from unique, perhaps these people were able to spend more to take advantage of other areas, but checking eligibility is essential - people have tried here to jump queues but have been told they will NOT get the second dose so their immunity will be limited.


----------



## raynipper

More weird news on vaccines.........................

https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/...5kpc9nwbqVX88xhhAHScptkhAKZhBAV98hRmKwMDV0XUQ

Ray.


----------



## erneboy

Yesterday I had an email claiming to be from the HNS and offering the recipient, who was not named, an appointment to have a vaccination. The email looked fairly convincing. The email address it supposedly came from did have the letters NHS and UK in it, though a little more scrutiny showed that it came from another address which was just gobbledygook.

There was a link to follow to arrange the vaccination. My guess is they'd have asked for money or personal details.

I got another, much the same this morning.

Be careful. I should think there will be plenty of scams about.


----------



## bilbaoman

Here in the north of spain all appointments or invitations such as flue jabs always come by post you can and i do make appointments to visit your GP online in the UK the local GPs contact you by phone or if its from central NHS by post


----------



## Pat-H

erneboy said:


> Yesterday I had an email claiming to be from the HNS and offering the recipient, who was not named, an appointment to have a vaccination. The email looked fairly convincing. The email address it supposedly came from did have the letters NHS and UK in it, though a little more scrutiny showed that it came from another address which was just gobbledygook.
> 
> There was a link to follow to arrange the vaccination. My guess is they'd have asked for money or personal details.
> 
> I got another, much the same this morning.
> 
> Be careful. I should think there will be plenty of scams about.


And yet these don't get investigated or prosecuted. Its just another way of scamming people and at all sorts of levels that's accepted as smart business.


----------



## jiwawa

raynipper said:


> More weird news on vaccines.........................
> 
> https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/...acts.com/images/smilies/new_alien.gif[/IMG]UQ
> 
> Ray.


How is that weird news Ray? Am I missing something? Seems great news to me as you'd expect rates to go up after Christmas. And, as on the continent, the firefighters are used to transport the sick so they're in n out of covid homes all the time m


----------



## raynipper

Yes your right Jean. Dunno how it changed but I initially saw covid rates had INCREASED after getting their jabs. Thats who I thought it weird. Seems it's either changed or I was mistaken.

Ray.

p.s. yes it was my mistake.


----------



## bilbaoman

Looks like more good news Johnson & Johnson vaccine to be submitted to regulators early next week Uk expect roleout mid Feb at the latest EU permitting


----------



## barryd

bilbaoman said:


> Looks like more good news Johnson & Johnson vaccine to be submitted to regulators early next week Uk expect roleout mid Feb at the latest EU permitting


Bet they wish they could change their name.


----------



## aldra

Today was in our local Asian shop

At least three people without a mask, one a rather larger than life black woman was standing so close to me we were touching and I found it difficult move away, she reached across me her face level with mine to get whatever produce she wanted

I can’t understand why they would put themselves and others at risk given the figures of risk to the BAME and black community 

Is it a type of arrogance ?

I know it’s not only the BAME community that is refusing to wear masks, but how stupid is that , I rarely go out but called in to buy some offal for the hound on the way back from the vets , and I won’t be bothering to go again

And it’s going to cost more money to the tax payer to encourage communities at greatest risk to take the vaccine 

It’s a funny old world

Sandra


----------



## erneboy

According to my two brothers who live in Leicester and Thirsk every shop they go into, regardless of ownership or ethnicity of the clientele, is much the same. 

Yes. It is arrogance.


----------



## patp

There was an item on tv when they asked people in the street if they believed in the virus. So many of them said no! Others said they would not be having the vaccine because it was more dangerous than the virus.


----------



## barryd

patp said:


> There was an item on tv when they asked people in the street if they believed in the virus. So many of them said no! Others said they would not be having the vaccine because it was more dangerous than the virus.


Have a look at this video. Its simply shocking. Pond life does not come close to describing these people. Those poor doctors and nurses, dealing with morons like this.


----------



## dghr272

erneboy said:


> According to my two brothers who live in Leicester and Thirsk every shop they go into, regardless of ownership or ethnicity of the clientele, is much the same.
> 
> Yes. It is arrogance.


Much too forgiving to say arrogance, my description would be along the lines of stupidity mixed with a fair dose of selfishness.
I seldom venture out into shops but when I must I have no hesitation pointing out the stupidity rather loudly to them whilst waving the stick that gives support to my dicky hip. No lanyard then expect a stick waving nutcase. Try it, it works,having a crazed look also helps.

BTW the hips are great since getting my injections into the joints two weeks ago. ;-D

Terry


----------



## Pat-H

I was in wickes a few days back. They have somebody on the door checking masks but once inside some take their masks down.
Not Asian just white blokes.


----------



## Antoni

Yes definitely. I hope it will reach me by the end of the summer.


----------



## jiwawa

They've introduced a new system for vaccine to NI where 60-69yr-olds can go online for an appt at a vaccine hub. So now all my friends in that age group have their jabs this week. 

Another friend who's over 75 gets hers this week thro the GP.

And those of us in the 70-75 group are still waiting.... 

But it will come soon. I feel for those who don't know yet.


----------



## bilbaoman

jiwawa said:


> They've introduced a new system for vaccine to NI where 60-69yr-olds can go online for an appt at a vaccine hub. So now all my friends in that age group have their jabs this week.
> 
> Another friend who's over 75 gets hers this week thro the GP.
> 
> And those of us in the 70-75 group are still waiting....
> 
> But it will come soon. I feel for those who don't know yet.


YOU are lucky here in Spain they are closing down the vaccine centres no vaccine:frown2::frown2::frown2:


----------



## bilbaoman

Looks like Germany will not give the Oxford jab to any one aged over 65 even before its been approved by the EMA


----------



## raynipper

Ha ha............................ how many has he compromised?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ar-mask.html?ito=email_share_article-masthead

Ray.


----------



## dghr272

jiwawa said:


> They've introduced a new system for vaccine to NI where 60-69yr-olds can go online for an appt at a vaccine hub. So now all my friends in that age group have their jabs this week.
> 
> Another friend who's over 75 gets hers this week thro the GP.
> 
> And those of us in the 70-75 group are still waiting....
> 
> But it will come soon. I feel for those who don't know yet.


Thanks Jean, after a couple of hang ups I was able to book slots for Lorraine and I on the basis of our age, just needed to dig out our NHS H&C numbers. Both going to Ballymena Tower Centre on Fri 5th Feb. Follow up appointments booked automatically for 16th April.

As a notified extremely vulnerable person, when I used that option it referred me to wait for GP contact so just used the age option being over 65.

Terry


----------



## Pat-H

raynipper said:


> Ha ha............................ how many has he compromised?
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ar-mask.html?ito=email_share_article-masthead
> 
> Ray.


Well at least dawinianisum is getting a fresh crack and streamlining the human race.


----------



## bilbaoman

By there own admission the EU stated that it would not start using the Oxford vaccine until mid feb which is nearly three weeks away and as they are not going to mix vaccines why are they closing vaccine centres in a number of countries it must mean the shortage of the other two vaccines is greater than they are saying or they did not order enough


----------



## dghr272

bilbaoman said:


> By there own admission the EU stated that it would not start using the Oxford vaccine until mid feb which is nearly three weeks away and as they are not going to mix vaccines why are they closing vaccine centres in a number of countries it must mean the shortage of the other two vaccines is greater than they are saying or they did not order enough


Looks like it's not an order quantity issue just that they were slow out of the blocks agreeing contracts. Their contract with Oxford AstraZ vaccine contained an Oxford line mentioning "delivery on best endeavours". Sadly a rookie error that lets OxfordAsraZ off a very large legal enforcement hook.

Terry

Edit, But remember, given all this 'Global Britain' bluster I'm sure we'll be playing our part and sharing our abundance of vaccine, won't we ?????


----------



## bilbaoman

Will not affect me even if boris sends all the British production to the EU the Germans have said it cannot be used on over 65s yet so when its approved later today by the EMA will agree to this restriction and i am 78


----------



## raynipper

Just tried to get an appointment again this am and told they have run out. Grrrrrrrr.

Ray.


----------



## patp

Our GP, here in a Norfolk village, has passed the test to be vaccine centre. He is just awaiting supplies of vaccines and will then be calling his patients forward. In the meantime, if we are called, we can still go to one of the regional centres for it.'

A friend who works in a SEN school has had hers. She was called in to the Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital. Getting a bit excited now. Daughter has indicated that her husband must take some leave before end of Feb so they come to us for a visit and a granddaughter hug!


----------



## raynipper

Be so very careful Pat. Christmas and New Year family gatherings have been the cause of many infections and deaths.

Ray.


----------



## Pat-H

Yes it's worth remembering these vaccines aren't 100% effective so there are still risks involved.


----------



## Penquin

raynipper said:


> Just tried to get an appointment again this am and told they have run out. Grrrrrrrr.
> 
> Ray.


My two and herself have both been cancelled - no vaccine.

Trying DoctorLib to find new appointments within a 150kn radius, to no avail, just get told "this Centre *may* have 1756 doses for the next 28 days" for a main regional centre.

The AZ and one other should be approved today and although there are considerable arguments about delivery of 80 million doses for the EU, it looks as if 3 million will be sent next week. The EU Commission has the distribution figures for what is going to each country so all we can do is "wait and see" - oh sorry, this is the wrong thread for that phrase.....

As you said Grrrrrrrr but we are in the lap of the Gods of the EU Commission. Deep joy !


----------



## H1-GBV

Can someone explain numbers for me please?
https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/covid-vaccine-uk/

_"Overall, the UK has secured access to 340 million doses across four separate types of vaccine

60 million doses of the Novavax vaccine
30 million doses from Janssen
40 million doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine - the first agreement the firms signed with any government
60 million doses of a vaccine being developed by Valneva
60 million doses of protein adjuvant vaccine from GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) and Sanofi Pasteur
5 million doses of the jab on offer from Moderna in the US"_

Additionally, 100M from AZ-Oxford

With an adult population of approx 60M, so 120M jabs if there is 100% take up, what happens to the rest?

Gordon


----------



## dghr272

H1-GBV said:


> Can someone explain numbers for me please?
> https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/covid-vaccine-uk/
> 
> _"Overall, the UK has secured access to 340 million doses across four separate types of vaccine
> 
> 60 million doses of the Novavax vaccine
> 30 million doses from Janssen
> 40 million doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine - the first agreement the firms signed with any government
> 60 million doses of a vaccine being developed by Valneva
> 60 million doses of protein adjuvant vaccine from GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) and Sanofi Pasteur
> 5 million doses of the jab on offer from Moderna in the US"_
> 
> Additionally, 100M from AZ-Oxford
> 
> With an adult population of approx 60M, so 120M jabs if there is 100% take up, what happens to the rest?
> 
> Gordon


I suspect 'securing access' doesn't mean buying however, being Global Britain now we'll probably give it away OR more likely a Tory mates company could sell off our buying options for a big handy profit.

See how I've learned how these charlatans work.

Terry


----------



## H1-GBV

Currently EU are arguing that their contract with AZ is a legal requirement for them to supply umpteen million doses.
I wonder if this is a "two way" thing and we have to buy all of those doses even if we can't use them?

On the Brexit thread there has been discussion about how good both sides are at negotiating and mention has been made of the experience of UK negotiators over the last few decades.
We know how well they defined the requirements and costs for PPE.
I would much rather that we had too much vaccine than not enough but do we want to be "world beating" in this respect?

Gordon

Memo to self: must stop being glass half-empty!


----------



## erneboy

H1-GBV said:


> Currently EU are arguing that their contract with AZ is a legal requirement for them to supply umpteen million doses.
> I wonder if this is a "two way" thing and we have to buy all of those doses even if we can't use them?
> 
> On the Brexit thread there has been discussion about how good both sides are at negotiating and mention has been made of the experience of UK negotiators over the last few decades.
> We know how well they defined the requirements and costs for PPE.
> I would much rather that we had too much vaccine than not enough but do we want to be "world beating" in this respect?
> 
> Gordon
> 
> Memo to self: must stop being glass half-empty!


I'd like to think that surplus would be given to countries which can't afford the cost of vaccine for all, along with help administering it.

It does seen a bit unlikely, still fingers crossed.


----------



## patp

Are children going to be vaccinated?


----------



## jiwawa

H1-GBV said:


> Can someone explain numbers for me please?
> https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/covid-vaccine-uk/
> 
> _"Overall, the UK has secured access to 340 million doses across four separate types of vaccine
> 
> 60 million doses of the Novavax vaccine
> 30 million doses from Janssen
> 40 million doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine - the first agreement the firms signed with any government
> 60 million doses of a vaccine being developed by Valneva
> 60 million doses of protein adjuvant vaccine from GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) and Sanofi Pasteur
> 5 million doses of the jab on offer from Moderna in the US"_
> 
> Additionally, 100M from AZ-Oxford
> 
> With an adult population of approx 60M, so 120M jabs if there is 100% take up, what happens to the rest?
> 
> Gordon


Some of these may never come online Gordon, for one reason or another. 


patp said:


> Are children going to be vaccinated?


I believe not Pat.


----------



## dghr272

H1-GBV said:


> Currently EU are arguing that their contract with AZ is a legal requirement for them to supply umpteen million doses.
> I wonder if this is a "two way" thing and we have to buy all of those doses even if we can't use them?
> 
> On the Brexit thread there has been discussion about how good both sides are at negotiating and mention has been made of the experience of UK negotiators over the last few decades.
> We know how well they defined the requirements and costs for PPE.
> I would much rather that we had too much vaccine than not enough but do we want to be "world beating" in this respect?
> 
> Gordon
> 
> Memo to self: must stop being glass half-empty!


The 'legal' requirement and I believe the point they're arguing on is OAZ contract wording to deliver with "best efforts/endeavours", David Allen Green, a legal contributor to the Times, has explained the difficulties,more detail here...

https://davidallengreen.com/2021/01...-in-the-astrazeneca-vaccine-supply-agreement/

Terry


----------



## H1-GBV

JVine (R2, 12:00) has just had guests (I was out walking so didn't catch their names) who were congratulating Kate Bingham for selecting the best vaccines to bet on: we seem to have backed all the leading brands and this is down to great British investigative work and taking the advice of experts.
Apparently the EU were steamrolled by Macron into backing a French vaccine.

Not wishing to appear cynical (glass half-empty again?) but did we not just adopt a scatter-gun approach and buy into almost every development?
(Lets be honest, it wasn't Kate's money that she was spending!)

A caller said that they hoped that all the scientists etc would receive appropriate recognition in the next set of Queen's Honours: my money is on Kate getting the accolade "on behalf of everyone involved".

Gordon

I'm glad that we have got the amount that we have.


----------



## bilbaoman

EU approve oxford jab no restrictions on use menber countries can impose restriction Germany already not recommending it for anyone over 65


----------



## Penquin

EU approval is ONLY for over 18's.


----------



## bilbaoman

Eu to ban export of covid vaccines without prior authorisation looks like the lawyers will be busy


----------



## Penquin

Or the production will stop ?

This will primarily affect Pfizer and I doubt that they will be keen to comply......

If the UK mirrored that, then the EU are less likely to obtain the AZ vaccine, if there is any surplus in the production within the U.K.

That will go down well.


----------



## aldra

Oh well

Definitely glass half full here

I almost lost my life to Covid, gained antibodies, have had the first vaccine 

Would like to live a bit longer , EU not withstanding 

Then I would wish it to go to the poorer countries

To protect us and them

EU, all grown up can sort themselves out 

Will fish boost their immunity ? :grin2::grin2:

Sandra


----------



## erneboy

I think everybody is glass half full, or even more enthusiastic than that about the evolution and delivery of vaccines Sandra.

Do you see someone who isn't? Please point them out for me, I missed it.


----------



## dghr272

So apparent that many here whilst generally supportive of the EU, have previously clearly stated it’s not without its problems. No more so than now regarding the specific vaccine issues.
Compare that to the HMG cult who tolerate lie after lie, incompetency after incompetency and all they can do is wrap themselves in nationalist jingoism.

The Commission’s handling of vaccine procurement has been inept, is it trying to cast AZ and the UK as the villains to divert attention from its own incompetence and now by this reckless Article 16 action is undermining the NI Protocol.

The cult gleefully boast about being first, best, world beating etc etc etc, how pathetic, but also very un-British old chap.

Terry


----------



## Pat-H

Indeed the EU make mistakes. And there are issues with being so large.
But as Macron has said the UK needs to decide exactly what trading model it wants (it's another matter altogether if it can achieve that and if that is viable)
As Macron says the auk can't be half friends with Europe.

I think he's not realised that the UK doesn't want to be friends at all. Johnson's deal shows trade with the EU has no political value. 

I suspect the EU hasn't realised yet that the UK has walked away.


----------



## bilbaoman

More problems for the EU vaccine programme Moderna to cut planned deliveries to Italy and France by 20% and 25% in Feb due to production problems


----------



## aldra

In my opinion the EU have been less than welcoming during the Brexit negotiations 

I see no reason now when they have messed up we need to rush to support them, nor any reason why they would expect us to rally round in their hour of need

There has never been any love lost by the French for the British long before Brexit 

What trading modal we want??

Suddenly trading modals become negotiable in order for the EU to demand a better share of the vaccine 

I imagine they have got what they paid for and developed and if in hindsight it wasn’t enough tough 

Sandra


----------



## bilbaoman

When you put somebody in charge that nearly stopped an airforce flying you are going to have problems maybe a drunk or clown are better


----------



## erneboy

aldra said:


> In my opinion the EU have been less than welcoming during the Brexit negotiations
> 
> I see no reason now when they have messed up we need to rush to support them, nor any reason why they would expect us to rally round in their hour of need
> 
> There has never been any love lost by the French for the British long before Brexit
> 
> What trading modal we want??
> 
> Suddenly trading modals become negotiable in order for the EU to demand a better share of the vaccine
> 
> I imagine they have got what they paid for and developed and if in hindsight it wasn't enough tough
> 
> Sandra


Are you aware that the British PM made exactly the same threat last week? I wasn't, it was barely considered news worthy when he said it it seems.


----------



## aldra

No I wasn’t

But then I’m not making any threats 

Sandra


----------



## erneboy

aldra said:


> No I wasn't
> 
> But then I'm not making any threats
> 
> Sandra


How does your not making threats relate to your not knowing that the British PM had made one last week Sandra?


----------



## patp

We have had the call to vaccinate! I can't believe how much lighter I feel having had that news


----------



## jiwawa

Congratulations Pat - yes, I see the excitement levels soar among my friends as they get the call. Being a 'W' surname I'll be at the coo's tail as usual!


----------



## Penquin

We would be later than you.... we are Wy.....

Always at the end of EVERY list..... and it has been always so....


----------



## bilbaoman

jiwawa said:


> Congratulations Pat - yes, I see the excitement levels soar among my friends as they get the call. Being a 'W' surname I'll be at the coo's tail as usual!


You can change your name by deed poll to be at front of the queue cost less than 43 gbp:smile2::smile2:


----------



## raynipper

Yes but ABBA doesn't look good on forms. 

Ray.


----------



## dghr272

raynipper said:


> Yes but ABBA doesn't look good on forms.
> 
> Ray.


You might just get away with Aardvark.

Terry


----------



## patp

Is it alphabetical, or is it age before beauty? Poor old Suffolk, the next door county, are well behind Norfolk. Not sure what happened there?


----------



## bilbaoman

patp said:


> Is it alphabetical, or is it age before beauty? Poor old Suffolk, the next door county, are well behind Norfolk. Not sure what happened there?


In Spain the priority is by who you know there as been widespread cheating also the experts have calculated that at the current rate of roll out it will take 4.7 years to complete:frown2::frown2::frown2::frown2::frown2:


----------



## jiwawa

bilbaoman said:


> In Spain the priority is by who you know there as been widespread cheating also the experts have calculated that at the current rate of roll out it will take 4.7 years to complete/images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_sad.png/images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_sad.png/images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_sad.png/images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_sad.png/images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_sad.png


That's pretty depressing about the cheating. I see the millionaire couple who flew to an indigenous town to jump the queue are facing jail time. Good.

I'm sure the rollout will ramp up as more vaccine passes muster. The current vaccine nationalism is abhorrent.


----------



## dghr272

jiwawa said:


> That's pretty depressing about the cheating. I see the millionaire couple who flew to an indigenous town to jump the queue are facing jail time. Good.
> 
> I'm sure the rollout will ramp up as more vaccine passes muster. The current vaccine nationalism is abhorrent.


Abhorrent and stupid, don't they understand it's a pandemic therefore needs to be attacked on every front, in terms of country's.
Although I dare say it will be offered to others in certain circumstances that is with multiple strings attached, such is the shameful nature in a lot of politics today.

Terry


----------



## aldra

Of course we hope the vaccine will offer personal protection, protection to our family and friends

But this is a pandemic, a clue is in the word 

None are safe till all are safe across our world 

I recon we just all may well end up to be in it together if we want our world to survive

Climate change?, get in line, if we all go then I’m sure the climate will happily sort itself out without us

But we can defeat Covid , that is the miracle of modern science, and then tackle climate change to protect our planet

Maybe we will remember just how precious life is

Sandra


----------



## jiwawa

I phoned the surgery this morning to ensure they wouldn't use my landline (I never answer as it's usually spam). As I was about to hang up she asked what call I was expecting. When I said the vaccination she asked me to hold on - so now I have the last available appointment this week, Friday!

I guess it saves someone hanging on the phone later.


----------



## dghr272

jiwawa said:


> I phoned the surgery this morning to ensure they wouldn't use my landline (I never answer as it's usually spam). As I was about to hang up she asked what call I was expecting. When I said the vaccination she asked me to hold on - so now I have the last available appointment this week, Friday!
> 
> I guess it saves someone hanging on the phone later.


Great news Jean we can compare side effects, mine is at 12:10 in Ballymena hey:grin2:

Terry


----------



## aldra

For us a heavy aching arm and mild flu like symptoms for a day or so , but we already had antibodies prior to the vaccination 

My daughters, nurses ,no effects at all

Sandra


----------



## kabundi

Just spoke to our surgery. They are currently doing 75+ but don’t have enough vaccine to complete all. They are hoping for another delivery next week to allow them to finish 75+ and start 70+


----------



## dghr272

Son who is one of the extremely vulnerable at 40 years of age just got a phone call to attend the RVH on Thursday cor his first jab.

Terry


----------



## Pat-H

Oh to be wealthy and have no morals.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...od-ekaterina-baker?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other


----------



## bilbaoman

Looks like AstraZenca wont need to find as many doses for the EU Sweden as followed Germany in banning its use in over 65s hope Spain does not follow suit as its my choice vaccine as its based on proven vaccine technology


----------



## kabundi

France has also approved use for under 65 only.

Ireland has approved use for all ages but intends not to use on over 65 if they can get enough of the Pfizer vaccine


----------



## Gretchibald

dghr272 said:


> Great news Jean we can compare side effects, mine is at 12:10 in Ballymena hey:grin2:
> 
> Terry


Beat you to it , B'mena at 08.40 am . Hope it doesn't snow over the hill.


----------



## H1-GBV

H1-GBV said:


> ...
> 
> Not wishing to appear cynical (glass half-empty again?) but *did we not just adopt a scatter-gun approach* and buy into almost every development?
> (Lets be honest, it wasn't Kate's money that she was spending!)
> ...
> 
> Gordon
> 
> I'm glad that we have got the amount that we have.


As an Imperial College alumni I wondered why we hadn't heard much recently about their version of a vaccine. So with a little bit of research I discover that HMG have given £40M towards its development. However, they are no longer focussing on producing a vaccine for the present, but rather a technique for tackling future problems:

Professor Robin Shattock, from Imperial's Department of Infectious Disease, said: "Although our first generation COVID-19 vaccine candidate is showing promise in early clinical development, the broader situation has changed with the rapid roll out of approved vaccines. It is not the right time to start a new efficacy trial for a further vaccine in the UK, with the emphasis rightly placed on mass vaccination in response to the rapid spread of the new variant.

GLASS HALF EMPTY: It *was *a scatter-gun approach and HMG are only crowing about the successes, which were *not *"carefully selected".

"We want our technology to have the greatest impact. That means focusing our UK efforts on developing self-amplifying RNA technology to adapt to new variants, to boost other vaccines and to be deployed against future pandemic threats. We want to develop Imperial's technology as a safety net to catch escape mutations, reach variants that other vaccines may not and meet potential needs for annual booster vaccinations.

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/213313/imperial-vaccine-tech-target-covid-mutations/

GLASS HALF FULL: This *is *fantastic news and could help to save all of our futures.

Gordon

[Still glad to have the amount which we have and my wife gets her first jab in 3h time. :smile2: ]


----------



## jiwawa

Gretchibald said:


> dghr272 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great news Jean we can compare side effects, mine is at 12:10 in Ballymena hey/images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_grin.png
> 
> Terry
> 
> 
> 
> Beat you to it , B'mena at 08.40 am . Hope it doesn't snow over the hill.
Click to expand...

Are we all Friday? Good luck!


----------



## Ingo Sundowner

*vaccine*

Just read this morning that both, France and Germany won't give the AZ vaccine to the over 65's. Makes me wonder


----------



## H1-GBV

My wife got Pfizer, so that isn't a worry for her.

I was 70 yesterday so I'm hoping Matty is going to send me a nice present before 15th Feb!

Gordon


----------



## bilbaoman

Ingo Sundowner said:


> Just read this morning that both, France and Germany won't give the AZ vaccine to the over 65's. Makes me wonder


Dont forget the Austrains poles and belgians have placed age limits belgium is over 55 the Swiss have banned it at the moment strange the EMA and 26 other countries have put no such restrictions on its use


----------



## dghr272

bilbaoman said:


> Ingo Sundowner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just read this morning that both, France and Germany won't give the AZ vaccine to the over 65's. Makes me wonder
> 
> 
> 
> Dont forget the Austrains poles and belgians have placed age limits belgium is over 55 the Swiss have banned it at the moment strange the EMA and 26 other countries have put no such restrictions on its use
Click to expand...

Be interesting to see outside rational for these decisions, is there something our mob haven't told us about? Surely not??

Terry


----------



## kabundi

The claimed issue seems to be that there were too few people over 65 in the OAZ trial. It seems there were somewhere between 300 and 400 of this age who received the vaccine plus about the same again in the control group who didn’t receive the vaccine.


----------



## Penquin

But now getting on for 8 million in the U.K........

of whom the majority are probably over 75 ......

Time to rethink those figures and comments by many EU Leaders methinks....


----------



## Glandwr

72 and I got it with my wife (71) today. I had signed up for "leftovers" at short notice call in our nearest mass vaccination centre 38 miles away. Email this morning @ 11:30, turn up between 1300 and 1500!! Didn't see email till 1300 hrs! An hours Paddy Hopkirk style run on country roads with the wife's head between her knees and we made it just in time. 2 phzers job done!


----------



## aldra

brilliant

Ours was much more laid back , 77, years booked, took about 5 minutes plus the waiting time of 15 minutes before we were allowed to leave

Sandra


----------



## Glandwr

I'm afraid I took the 15mins waiting post jab as optional Sandra and was out pretty sharpish as I had missed my lunch:laugh:

I was amazed at how many seemed to take it literally. I wonder if this pandemic will make us more suggestible as a nation.:smile2:


----------



## aldra

I admit I was itching to go, watching the clock

But I know the waiting period was in case of adverse reaction to the vaccination

I’m a good girl plus I felt a bit intimidated by others counting down the 15 min and didn’t want to seem ungrateful >

Sandra


----------



## barryd

Glandwr said:


> I'm afraid I took the 15mins waiting post jab as optional Sandra and was out pretty sharpish as I had missed my lunch:laugh:
> 
> I was amazed at how many seemed to take it literally. I wonder if this pandemic will make us more suggestible as a nation.:smile2:


Dont think ill be hanging around either. Would it not be better to wait in your car for the 15 min? Some of these vaccine centres inevitably will have virus aerosol present with so many people in them and they are indoors of course. Get in, get out as quick as possible I reckon.


----------



## H1-GBV

We waited in the car 

Gordon


----------



## patp

H1-GBV said:


> My wife got Pfizer, so that isn't a worry for her.
> 
> I was 70 yesterday so I'm hoping Matty is going to send me a nice present before 15th Feb!
> 
> Gordon


Happy Birthday Gordon!


----------



## aldra

I expect a tiny minority may have a sudden adverse reaction to the vaccine

The waiting room was spaced, a nurse present at all times, all wore masks

All chairs were disinfected immediately they were vacated

Waiting in a car would mean you would not be seen should you have been one of the unlucky ones that had an adverse reaction and would be slow to get treatment to reverse it

Sandra


----------



## barryd

I think I would rather take my chances sat in the car than a room full of people for 15 min.


----------



## patp

Has anyone heard of any adverse reactions?


----------



## raynipper

Lots of aches and pains but apart from the 188 dead in the US, no.

Ray.


----------



## Penquin

So far the Pfizer vaccine has had FOUR adverse reactions including facial paralysis (later resolved), with 48000 volunteers in the trial, the Moderna vaccine also had FOUR, three with the vaccine and one with the placebo (try explaining that), they had 30,000 volunteers in their trial. France has reported 10 adverse reactions, mainly allergic with two temporary tachycardia (rapid heartbeat), France has so far vaccinated more than 1.2 million.

I have not seen any details about the O/AZ except as a temporary justification for the U65 only use adopted by many European countries due to only 600 volunteers in the U.K. trial in that age group and only TWO were reported as being "exposed to the CoVid virus" hence their concerns about it being approved for the home being.


----------



## Penquin

raynipper said:


> Lots of aches and pains but apart from the 188 dead in the US, no.
> 
> Ray.


Can you quote a link to that 188 figure please ?


----------



## patp

I was thinking about the sitting for about 15 minutes "just in case". I haven't heard of anyone having an anaphylactic reaction so wondered whether they might phase out the 15 minute wait.


----------



## Glandwr

patp said:


> I was thinking about the sitting for about 15 minutes "just in case". I haven't heard of anyone having an anaphylactic reaction so wondered whether they might phase out the 15 minute wait.


...... there would need to be a consultation period on that one :laugh:


----------



## raynipper

Penquin said:


> Can you quote a link to that 188 figure please ?


Not offhand Dave. It was a lifted item from my friend in CA off a news comment.

Ray.


----------



## aldra

I’m not up to date on that

But an anaphylactic reaction needs a rapid response , 15 mins seems a small concession 

The waiting rooms are set out to be two metres apart, masks worn, more than can be guaranteed at the supermarket

Sandra


----------



## raynipper

Side effects.

https://www.aol.co.uk/more-third-people-report-side-165427774.html

Ray.


----------



## kabundi

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n149/rapid-responses

https://health.economictimes.indiat...f-people-vaccinated-against-covid-19/80278306

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/health/covid-vaccine-death.html

Some reports above of adverse reactions.

Looks like headlines are misleading


----------



## barryd

aldra said:


> I'm not up to date on that
> 
> But an anaphylactic reaction needs a rapid response , 15 mins seems a small concession
> 
> The waiting rooms are set out to be two metres apart, masks worn, more than can be guaranteed at the supermarket
> 
> Sandra


Trouble is, two metres dont make much difference in a room full of people for a long time which is been used by hundreds all day long. Same applies for where you get the vaccine. Time is crucial apparently, especially indoors. I would say the risks of having a reaction in your car outside are far less than hanging about in a hospital or wherever its administered inside seeing as very few people do have any issues. I hate to say it but there are bound to be cases where people have caught the virus while getting their jabs. in and out as quickly as possible. I wont be staying for 15 min.


----------



## erneboy

I'm not dismissing the possibility that people die of a reaction to vaccination, but out of millions of people vaccinated some of them would certainly have died when they did anyway and from other causes.

Around 3 in 100,000 people will die every day from old age alone. So 30 in a million people vaccinated were going to die on a given day regardless of vaccination. 

I think. Do the numbers. Assume say 75 years as an average life span. That's a bit short of 30,000 days, so roughly 30 in any million will shuffle off on any given day.

It seems to me that the odds shorten rapidly the closer to the finishing post we get,

Someone check that please.


----------



## jiwawa

aldra said:


> Waiting in a car would mean you would not be seen should you have been one of the unlucky ones that had an adverse reaction and would be slow to get treatment to reverse it
> 
> Sandra


I agree. I think it's a requirement to have a defibrillator at vaccination sites.

Maybe wear an FFP2 mask, or a double home-made one? 


erneboy said:


> I'm not dismissing the possibility that people die of a reaction to vaccination, but out of millions of people vaccinated some of them would certainly have died when they did anyway and from other causes.
> 
> Around 3 in 100,000 people will die every day from old age alone. So 30 in a million people vaccinated were going to die on a given day regardless of vaccination.
> 
> I think. Do the numbers. Assume say 75 years as an average life span. That's a bit short of 30,000 days, so roughly 30 in any million will shuffle off on any given day.
> 
> It seems to me that the odds shorten rapidly the closer to the finishing post we get,
> 
> Someone check that please.


The info is somewhere in the Vaccinate the World series https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000py6s/episodes/player

Maybe in the Vaccine Hesitancy one.


----------



## bilbaoman

As i am 77 from your assumptions i should be dead so i had better tell my wife i cannot start any jobs in the house in case i die before i complete them i am going to open another bottle of gin now as i had better run down my stocks


----------



## dghr272

My sons experience at the RVH Belfast today, was picked out of the queue due the being a previous shielding E Vulnerable person then fast racked to a separate room for jab, then shown to a special seating area with seats 3 metres apart covered with new plastic on them, rows of seats had plastic shielding sheets between them. Very efficient and safe process, no side effects so far.

Us going to Ballymena will be probably be sitting on straw bales with staff wearing full length vets gloves, take care 😄

Terry


----------



## kabundi

dghr272 said:


> Us going to Ballymena will be probably be sitting on straw bales with staff wearing full length vets gloves, take care 😄
> 
> Terry


Those going to Ballymena wrap up warm.

My BIL was there earlier in the week. Joined the long queue outside in the rain. Took him about 75 minutes from arrival until he was at the 'book in' area.


----------



## erneboy

bilbaoman said:


> As i am 77 from your assumptions i should be dead so i had better tell my wife i cannot start any jobs in the house in case i die before i complete them i am going to open another bottle of gin now as i had better run down my stocks


Move the calculation to whatever upper limit you like then. 90 would seem quite a high upper limit, try that. It makes little difference to the number of deaths which can be expected each day.


----------



## patp

kabundi said:


> Those going to Ballymena wrap up warm.
> 
> My BIL was there earlier in the week. Joined the long queue outside in the rain. Took him about 75 minutes from arrival until he was at the 'book in' area.


What!? All over the, local, social media sites here in Norfolk are reports of the wonderful efficiency people are experiencing when they turn up for their appointment. I have not seen one report that did not attest to turning up and just having details taken before a brief wait to be called in, jabbed and moved into the waiting area. Lots of cheerful staff making the whole process seamless. Off for ours in a few hours so will report back.


----------



## dghr272

patp said:


> What!? All over the, local, social media sites here in Norfolk are reports of the wonderful efficiency people are experiencing when they turn up for their appointment. I have not seen one report that did not attest to turning up and just having details taken before a brief wait to be called in, jabbed and moved into the waiting area. Lots of cheerful staff making the whole process seamless. Off for ours in a few hours so will report back.


Ah yes, but remember this is Paisley's territory, perhaps like his good Tory mate Daniel Hannan he doesn't believe the virus could kill you. :surprise:

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...ple-coronavirus-isnt-going-to-kill-you/21/05/

Terry


----------



## Glandwr

patp said:


> What!? All over the, local, social media sites here in Norfolk are reports of the wonderful efficiency people are experiencing when they turn up for their appointment. I have not seen one report that did not attest to turning up and just having details taken before a brief wait to be called in, jabbed and moved into the waiting area. Lots of cheerful staff making the whole process seamless. Off for ours in a few hours so will report back.


Many will tell you that it is the one (the only?) Government initiative of the pandemic that hasn't been outsourced to the public sector sharks and scavengers. But is run and organised directly by public sector workers with the help of volunteers and in many cases the services Pat. I wonder if that is the case over the water?

There must be some rather disgruntled "business men" sitting on the sidelines here, dreaming of the money they could have made :smile2:. I wonder if political donations will suffer :wink2:


----------



## jiwawa

Had mine this morning at a local sports centre. I was 1st of the day and in and out before I should have been in. Only had to sit for 15mins if you were driving (I'd walked) so they must've done their risk assessment on that.

My Dr was an ex-rugby player, played centre in Ireland-Scotland games. 

I went out the door I thought he'd indicated n found myself locked in a rear compound! I did eventually find a small gate that wasn't locked - and then I was totally lost! 

One disadvantage of an early appointment - no coffee places open! So it was a driech walk home.


----------



## jiwawa

Oh, and per advice from my sister, I had it in the arm I don't sleep on - wouldn't have thought of that.


----------



## kabundi

Some people are suggesting taking pain killers a couple of hours before and a couple of hours after the jab to reduce any aches


----------



## dghr272

Jabs done, Phizer, very efficient in Ballymena, both of us in and out within 30mins. Card supplied with second jab date 16/04.

Terry


----------



## patp

Jab done in a Norwich suburb doctor's surgery. All very efficient. Retired doctor did ours. Appointment give for 11 weeks time that overrides the original 12 week one.


----------



## kabundi

dghr272 said:


> Jabs done, Phizer, very efficient in Ballymena, both of us in and out within 30mins. Card supplied with second jab date 16/04.
> 
> Terry


That's 10 weeks ahead.

10 weeks seems normal in NI, my daughter who is front line NHS gets her second one in early March after 10 weeks. Same with sister who got her first last week.


----------



## patp

At our appointment, today, they changed our second appointment to eleven weeks time from the twelve weeks given to us earlier. I think they must be more confident of vaccine supplies.


----------



## H1-GBV

*The joys of country living:
*
Our GP practice has 2 surgeries, both approx 3 miles away.
One of them is a linear format so ideal for vaccinations: in through one door,report to reception, into one of the rooms, out of the far end.

It's so suitable that it has been chosen as the hub for all of Dereham and surrounding villages. :smile2:

Unfortunately, no-one told the bus company and they recently reduced their service to one bus every 2 hours. :frown2:
They say that they are unable to revert to a higher level of provision so almost everyone needs a car.

Gordon


----------



## patp

It is a bit weird, Gordon. We go to Hingham GP practice as it is the best in the area. They were approved to be a vaccine centre. We got the call, from them to go for our vaccination to Cringleford! I asked if they were still vaccinating and they said "yes - but we haven't got enough vaccines". I assume that they may be vaccinating those that might not be able to travel to Cringleford for various reasons.


----------



## dghr272

The nurse that jabbed me yesterday in Ballymena was saying near the close of day for them local pharmacists pick up the vials of Phizer that have been prepared for use and take them contacting their staff and folk they know to come to them for vaccination, therefore the vaccine isn’t going to waste as it has a limited life.

Terry


----------



## jiwawa

There's been a whole hoohah about left-over vaccine being used - would they rather it get thrown away? Of course we don't want that abused but it makes sense to use it - hopefully they would have some idea of 'deserving' cases.


----------



## Penquin

GP daughter says Pfizer vaccine VERY sensitive once thawed and diluted, too sensitive to even walk up stairs, it apparently, consists of a lipid (fat) layer around the mRNA and with too vigorous handling the lipid layer is broken, meaning the vaccine cannot fuse with the cel membrane for the mRNA to enter and be used to form the spike proteins.

It may be that the manufacturers have found a way to stabilise it, but I have heard/read nothing to suggest this so if it was Pfizer they were using moving it away from the vaccine centre might seem a "Bridge Too Far" and people may think they have been given the active vaccine but haven't as it had broken during transport.

She says they have a reserve list, ring them and then ring the ambulance and the fire service to use up any surplus stock. That, to me, seems both feasible and sensible behaviour.

If they are using the O/AZ vaccine that problem does not occur and that would be very sensible.

I THINK but do not KNOW that vastly more O/AZ vaccine is being used than Pfizer now in the UK, so with that assumption, the staff at Ballymena are behaving absolutely properly - it would be good if there were more such people willing to "think outside the box".


----------



## dghr272

Penquin said:


> GP daughter says Pfizer vaccine VERY sensitive once thawed and diluted, too sensitive to even walk up stairs, it apparently, consists of a lipid (fat) layer around the mRNA and with too vigorous handling the lipid layer is broken, meaning the vaccine cannot fuse with the cel membrane for the mRNA to enter and be used to form the spike proteins.
> 
> It may be that the manufacturers have found a way to stabilise it, but I have heard/read nothing to suggest this so if it was Pfizer they were using moving it away from the vaccine centre might seem a "Bridge Too Far" and people may think they have been given the active vaccine but haven't as it had broken during transport.
> 
> She says they have a reserve list, ring them and then ring the ambulance and the fire service to use up any surplus stock. That, to me, seems both feasible and sensible behaviour.
> 
> If they are using the O/AZ vaccine that problem does not occur and that would be very sensible.
> 
> I THINK but do not KNOW that vastly more O/AZ vaccine is being used than Pfizer now in the UK, so with that assumption, the staff at Ballymena are behaving absolutely properly - it would be good if there were more such people willing to "think outside the box".


Nope Ballymena all Pfizer, RVH Belfast son also got Pfizer. Ulster hospital DiL Pfizer also. I think the local GPs practices are OAZ as it's more manageable in their environments.

Terry


----------



## jiwawa

That's my experience - friends thro hospitalfizer, thro GP: AZ


----------



## Glandwr

Yep as I understand it the MASS vaccination centres are using the Pfizer product and smaller centres like surgeries are using the O Az one. Makes logistics easier i suppose.


----------



## H1-GBV

Pfizer at our surgery 

Gordon


----------



## Pat-H

The good thing with being younger (under 60) and healthy is by the time I due to get a vaccine we may know more about which options are best. Especially with these new variants.
It does show that the laz quarantine and lock downs have allowed these variants to get a foothold and risk undermining the effectiveness of the vaccines programme.


----------



## raynipper

I'm thinking the same way Pat and in no rush to get jabbed.

Ray.


----------



## erneboy

raynipper said:


> I'm thinking the same way Pat and in no rush to get jabbed.
> 
> Ray.


Haven't dared say it, but I'm OK with the wait we will have here too. By the time it gets round to being our turn a lot more will be known.


----------



## dghr272

If I was in Spain and no other option it makes a reasoned argument, however here it’s available, I’m listed as CEV, so best to take what’s going at this point in time, yes it’s risk but on balance worth taking.
The postcode testing panic does make me suspect we’re not getting the full story and HMG doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence.

It does tickle me greatly at the ones rejecting Pfizer wanting to wait for the OAZ ‘British’ vaccine.

Terry


----------



## erneboy

Yes, like you I'd have taken it if offered, and been glad of it too Terry. I'm happy enough that it's not for now though.


----------



## patp

Pfizer at our local centre but we overheard them saying that it would be AZ next week. I have heard elsewhere too that they seem to be alternating them. Could be a way of managing the supply and demand? If so, all credit to them for devising a system that seems to be working so well,


----------



## Penquin

Rang today and was told "nothing available, try next week and you might be lucky and can go on the waiting list"

That does sound encouraging, last time we looked, the waiting list was ver 1500 long and they are receiving approx 800 per month.......

We both have "Priority prescriptions" but even with those we are now looking at April/May at the earliest.

Isn't France doing well ?

Most parts of the UK have vaccinated around 16% of the population (it varies slightly with Country), France has managed 3%.........,


----------



## Pat-H

Penquin said:


> Rang today and was told "nothing available, try next week and you might be lucky and can go on the waiting list"
> 
> That does sound encouraging, last time we looked, the waiting list was ver 1500 long and they are receiving approx 800 per month.......
> 
> We both have "Priority prescriptions" but even with those we are now looking at April/May at the earliest.
> 
> Isn't France doing well ?
> 
> Most parts of the UK have vaccinated around 16% of the population (it varies slightly with Country), France has managed 3%.........,


Its not just France most of Europe is lagging behind on this and the UK did better at securing early access but we have no idea of the cost of that as it seems a scatter gun approach was used.


----------



## raynipper

Ironically after being told on the phone there was no availability in Dept 50 Le Manche I went online and booked my wife for next friday. But although times for me were available I can't get any conformation of my rendezvous. So it's a lottery again that when we turn up for my wifes conformed appointment can they squeeze me in? Confusing.

Ray.


----------



## H1-GBV

It looks like Matty has forgotten my birthday and I need to organise my own present!

_Covid: Over-70s can contact NHS for vaccine in England
_

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55980053

Gordon


----------



## Penquin

Same here, but no chance of getting through on line, or on the phone.


----------



## raynipper

Have you got a Dr. Lib account Dave. If not set one up. It free and easy and I'm sure can get appointments where calling won't.

Ray.


----------



## aldra

Pat-H said:


> Its not just France most of Europe is lagging behind on this and the UK did better at securing early access but we have no idea of the cost of that as it seems a scatter gun approach was used.


Scatter gun or not

We are still getting the vaccine rolled out

I'm grateful to have had my first one, although a nasty attack of Covid left me with antibodies 10 months later before the vaccine

Unlike you under 60 and in good health Pat many are relying on the vaccine

And the truth is under 60 and in good health doesn't guarantee you will survive Covid

60 is the average age of those in intensive care now

So you are fortunate to live in Britain for all its faults and I hope you will get the vaccine soon

Sandra


----------



## Pat-H

Further fortunately we believe the whole family had Covid around April last year. But we still take all the due care.

My main concern is the lost opportunity we had with the early vaccine rollout. We had the chance to significantly reduce the infection levels as the vaccinated population acted as barriers to the spread.

But we didn't control international travel and that's allowed the entry and spread of variants. And we also still have a woefully inadequate track and trace.

If the levels of infection aren't lowered enough then we are just treading water. And the longer we allow the virus to circulate in our population the greater the risk of variants that the vaccines we have rolled out being less effective.


----------



## Penquin

raynipper said:


> Have you got a Dr. Lib account Dave. If not set one up. It free and easy and I'm sure can get appointments where calling won't.
> 
> Ray.


Yes, been there, been trying for weeks several times a day, always with the same message "We have no places freee but expect to have eg 878 doses in the next 28 days"

The suggestion from HAS is that if you encounter that problem AND can have a last minute slot, phone and ask to go on the waiting list.

Trying to do that, unsuccessfully so far. One restriction is that the vaccines are being delivered to each Department according to perceived need, you can ONLY be vaccinated in your own Department and the Lot et Garonne is way down the list, even in Nouvelle Aquitaine - the next step up the chain.....

We will keep trying but hopefully not for too long..... The new timetable says we SHOULD be vaccinated before the end of the month, but these things tend to slip...


----------



## raynipper

OK Dave. The other thing is we have just been added to a list our local Pharmacy has. Just in case. But being as it looks like my wife will get first jab Friday we will take her off the pharmacy list for someone else.
If I don't get squeezed in when my wife has hers I will keep trying as well.

Ray.


----------



## Penquin

Pharmacy not allowed to give AZ to anyone over 60 due to Macron, deciding it doesn't work. That is the ONLY vaccine Pharmacies can give due to very cold storage requirement AFAIK.


----------



## jiwawa

Pat-H said:


> And we also still have a woefully inadequate track and trace.


Not according to Matt Hancock at the briefing tonight.... According to him, TnT is now returning in the upper 90s% of tests within 24hrs and tracing in the upper 90s% of contacts.

Yes, I was flabbergasted too and wonder where the evidence is.

And Ch4 news says they're sacking some of the TnT staff right now.

Eh??


----------



## JanHank

Sent to me this morning by a friend.

https://english.elpais.com/society/...pUzTAgg7YBUTS4kg-inxAOvPUs#Echobox=1612774235


----------



## H1-GBV

aldra said:


> Scatter gun or not
> 
> We are still getting the vaccine rolled out
> .
> .
> 
> So you are fortunate to live in Britain for all its faults and I hope you will get the vaccine soon
> 
> Sandra


You are correct Sandra: those of us living in UK are very fortunate to get the vaccine so quickly.

I was probably the person who introduced the term "scatter gun", because I was very annoyed at being lied to once again. JVine was allowing people to say how clever the Gov had been, listening to experts then selecting those which were going to succeed.
I'm sure that you appreciate NO-ONE knew which experiments were going to succeed and so the HONEST approach would be to say, as Sunak did with the first financial support packages, "we will do whatever it takes".

He did receive a lot of criticism from people who thought that the damage to the economy by borrowing would be more serious than just letting the weak go to the wall. However, most folk (including me) thought that he did the right thing, even if it was not perfect.

So why can't they say they "did whatever it takes"? The cost is something, I suspect, that most people will accept in exchange for early vaccination of the whole country.

I would feel much more fortunate to live in a country with honest, or at least competent, politicians: wouldn't you?

Gordon


----------



## patp

aldra said:


> Scatter gun or not
> 
> We are still getting the vaccine rolled out
> 
> I'm grateful to have had my first one, although a nasty attack of Covid left me with antibodies 10 months later before the vaccine
> 
> Unlike you under 60 and in good health Pat many are relying on the vaccine
> 
> And the truth is under 60 and in good health doesn't guarantee you will survive Covid
> 
> 60 is the average age of those in intensive care now
> 
> So you are fortunate to live in Britain for all its faults and I hope you will get the vaccine soon
> 
> Sandra


I am so with you there Sandra. To think that we thought we would be safer to stay in Spain last winter. Credit where it is due to all those involved in rolling this vaccine programme out.


----------



## bilbaoman

aldra said:


> Scatter gun or not
> 
> We are still getting the vaccine rolled out
> 
> I'm grateful to have had my first one, although a nasty attack of Covid left me with antibodies 10 months later before the vaccine
> 
> Unlike you under 60 and in good health Pat many are relying on the vaccine
> 
> And the truth is under 60 and in good health doesn't guarantee you will survive Covid
> 
> 60 is the average age of those in intensive care now
> 
> So you are fortunate to live in Britain for all its faults and I hope you will get the vaccine soon
> 
> Sandra


You are certainly lucky to live in the in the UK with regards to the vaccine roll out here in the Basque Country we have been told today they hope to vaccinate 80% of the over 80s by the end of April so not much chance for the rest of us also we have suffered 6 different lock down since last April the present one for the last 16 days the bars have taken the goverment to court because they were closed the bars won and will reopen tomorrow even though the number of covid cases is increasing so its not only the UK that as got problems:frown2::frown2:


----------



## raynipper

I don't think I would trade a jab to move back to the UK from what we see on the news Bil.

Ray.


----------



## patp

Oh, Ray, never believe all that you see on the news  We don't even recognise the UK when we watch it


----------



## raynipper

I guess with several news channels including foreign ones in English and possibly 200+ members on four forums and family and friends still in UK we do get a pretty accurate assessment of how things have changed since we left.
I'm not saying Normandy is Utopia but compared to anywhere in England we are conversant with it is.

Yellow lines, motoring restrictions and the medical services are just the daily obvious. Quality of life is more subtle and subjective but Rick Stein prog last night on BBC2 said it all despite his love of raw shellfish.

Ray.


----------



## patp

No parking or motoring restrictions in France? There are none where I live. For something that is absolutely free I think that our world beating hospitals and medical facilities are fantastic. I remember my gran refusing to go into hospital when her leg was turning gangrene. She had memories of her parents only going in when it was too late to save them because they had to pay 

Our quality of life here in rural Norfolk is wonderful.


----------



## barryd

I would say the same about the North Yorkshire Dales, Teesdale, Richmond and Barnard Castle. In fact its not that dissimilar to Normandy in that its not over crowded and parking is easy. Doctors appointments often the same day, relaxed way of life, almost zero crime rate here, stunning scenery and you can buy a palace here for the price of a two up two down in London. Ray might have a point about many parts of the UK though. I dont travel around much anymore these last few years but I certainly used to and it ceased being an enjoyable experience some years ago. As Dorothy said, "Theres no place like home".


----------



## Penquin

As I frequently discuss with French medical receptionists when they use often excellent English c/w my 'O' Level (failed) French, "Have you ever visited Britain ?"

"Yes," they often say, "I have been to London once"

As if that was a total immersion in British culture....

My reply ?

"London is not Britain, anymore than Paris is typical of France"

"Oh, no, Paris is totally different to the rest of France" often with a wrinkled nose.....

We do not know all of France, yet, there are vast areas that we have not visited, although many that we have, so I would never claim to "know France", anymore than I would claim to know all of Britain, since by the nature of only visiting somewhere you only get a very superficial view.

At present any decision to go to Britain has been made for us by that "nice Mr Hancock", on the present basis it could be a couple of YEARS before we are allowed back without serious implications of cost and time. By that time, I suspect many, if not most, travel companies, airlines, airports will have ceased trading.


----------



## patp

A friend described her trip to London, when asked, as "well, I stepped off the train and my bum nipped up!"


----------



## erneboy

Good for theatre and restaurants which now and again I enjoyed and liked. Sometimes essential for business which I always disliked having to do. Mrs Eb worked there a lot more than I did and liked it fine.

But then I just don't really like cities anywhere. A day trip now and again or an evening out is enough for me.


----------



## patp

I lived in the suburbs and worked right in the centre. Never did like it. Mind you I would give my eye teeth to have even one of the lovely parks on my doorstep.


----------



## H1-GBV

*Another joy of country living*: "You may be over 70 BUT you're not on the list yet!"

And because of the snow, the chances of me being on it before 15th Feb is extremely low.

Gordon

I can't blame Matty for the snow but he obviously has failed to deliver my birthday present! >


----------



## patp

He's been reading some of your posts Gordon


----------



## barryd

erneboy said:


> Good for theatre and restaurants which now and again I enjoyed and liked. Sometimes essential for business which I always disliked having to do. Mrs Eb worked there a lot more than I did and liked it fine.
> 
> But then I just don't really like cities anywhere. A day trip now and again or an evening out is enough for me.


I loved my time in London but it was mainly in my 30s. If you are young and are spending someone else's money and on a good wage in a good job its fantastic. The opportunities are there though, more than anywhere else but for most people its a hell of a rat race slog for very little in terms of a quality lifestyle at the end of it.


----------



## H1-GBV

We spent 4y as students in London (69-73). A fantastic time with lots to enjoy (but not lots of money).
However, we had a first-floor flat (sharing the bathroom & toilet with5 other flats!) just off the South Circular. During the summer we had the choice of sweltering with the windows closed or breathing in fumes from stationary traffic.

We much prefer our comfortable home with large garden here in rural Norfolk!

Gordon


----------



## H1-GBV

My 65y old brother (no medical problems) texted this afternoon to say that he gets his jab, in Teesside, tomorrow.

Then the post came (4pm) and I have a letter inviting me to get a jab (probably 25miles away in the Norwich shopping mall, which I will not go to) OR to wait until my GP contacts me.

Gordon

So Matty has sent me a present, after all! :wink2:


----------



## patp

A friend has had her jab but her husband had heard nothing. Chris and I were called together. She phoned to make sure he was on their books and he was. When they checked their landline that had about 3 or 4 missed calls! He has now been called to go to Poringland.

Are you put of Castle Mall because of its location Gordon? I must admit that I found it a weird choice but everybody who has been says it is very easy to access from the car park and the huge roof makes it seem very safe.


----------



## aldra

I watched the programme on TV this morning dedicated to BAME people to encourage them to have the Covid Vaccine

A question and answer programme , one women whose English was impeccable said her mother is refusing it, she is Turkish and doesn’t understand English, which the daughter put down as the reason her mother refuses to have it, does she have any idea how much money is paid by the NHS to interpreters?

My daughter is head of children’s services, her budget is eaten up with interpreter costs, every leaflet I have seen is multilingual, with the addition of a contact for language difficulties 

Others want to know if it’s safe for BAME people? Is it safe for none BAME people ?

Do none BAME people die from Covid ?1

At risk of sounding racist I’m becoming irritated, most of the people are not first generation citizens , they have been British citizens their whole lives 

Suddenly they are different, require a different treatment, different consideration, encouragement to save their lives, and all is costing money that could be better spent elsewhere

The NHS is full of BAME doctors and nurses working to save everyone’s lives regardless of ethnicity

How is Pakistan and Bangladesh dealing with Covid , are they using the vaccine if they can get it? What about Turkey, are they also refusing to be vaccinated ?

This is a pandemic we are dealing with, a virus happy to kill regardless of ethnicity, is the vaccine safe long term ?

Who knows only time will tell

But it’s better than the alternative as countless people who have died would have attested to, many of them BAME 

It’s the responsibility of everyone to halt this pandemic, at present the vaccine is our best bet whether we are BAME citizens or not

Britain is not trying to kill BAME citizens, Covid is , and unfortunately Covid is succeeding to do just that

The Bame community needs to recognise that and do something about it, Covid does not recognise them as different or special they die just the same

And without the vaccine are likely to infect and kill others

And that goes also for all the idiots who refuse the vaccine without a genuine reason

Those with a genuine reason we protect by getting ourselves vaccinated 

Sandra


----------



## Pat-H

Don't worry Sandra the cost of printing leaflets and even interpreters is a tiny fraction of the money handed out in PPE contracts track and trace and all the rest of the governments mates contracts.

And yes everyone in our society needs and deserves the information presented to them in a way they can understand and trust. 
It may irritate you that they may have different needs to you and others but if they do then that has to be resolved. 
It's not correct that they present a risk. As those vaccinated should be safe. It's only those not vaccinated that are at risk. 
But of course this is just the result of decades of ignoring a problem. It's pressing now because it was ignored before.


----------



## dghr272

Pat-H said:


> Don't worry Sandra the cost of printing leaflets and even interpreters is a tiny fraction of the money handed out in PPE contracts track and trace and all the rest of the governments mates contracts.
> 
> And yes everyone in our society needs and deserves the information presented to them in a way they can understand and trust.
> It may irritate you that they may have different needs to you and others but if they do then that has to be resolved.
> It's not correct that they present a risk. As those vaccinated should be safe. It's only those not vaccinated that are at risk.
> But of course this is just the result of decades of ignoring a problem. It's pressing now because it was ignored before.


Yes and it's not a situation that Britain alone suffers from, thinking of the Brits in Spain as an example who make no effort to integrate. I'm sure it's irritating for the locals too, some here conveniently point only in one direction.

Terry


----------



## patp

I so agree with you Sandra. I would, if it were in my power, make everyone who refuses a vaccine, without a good medical reason, fund their own healthcare. It is one of the few faults of our free NHS that people take little care with their own health. And yes, I would include those in Spain in that. At least there they have to provide, and pay for, an interpreter when they attend a medical appointment. Why don't we do that?


----------



## aldra

I’m not discussing integration 

Regardless of integration we are not looking at new immigrants that are refusing the vaccine

The BAME community is not made up of newly arrived immigrants

Well certainly not in my area

They came over to work the Lancashire cotton mills around the time I was born

I grew up in the cotton mills of Lancashire along side the immigrants over 70 years ago

So how long new immigrants ?

70+ years , new immigrants?

Their kids and their children’s kids British citizens 

So everyone here has no problem with the vaccination?

Wrong

In this they choose to be different

Why?

The cost of interpreters is a minor cost to the NHS ?

You know that for a fact ?

We are not discussing PPE , we are discussing Interpreters and Covid and the NHS

We are are trying to understand why BAME people need to be convinced to have the vaccine especially as many have been British citizens for all their lives 

They need special consideration, we need to expend money to convince them, why?

Covid is killing them, Covid is killing non BAME people too

Stick to the discussion 

Why do we need to continually explain to BAME people that it is in their own interest to have the vaccination , why do we need to spend Money to convince them to be vaccinated against a pandemic that they already know is killing more of the BAME population than others

And if they won’t listen what do you propose

As yet we don’t know why the BAME community is at higher risk only that they seem to be , is it multi generational living, is it it only the poor, is it only the poor non BAME that are dying that are living in poverty?

It doesn’t seem to be 

It could years of research to find out why

Meanwhile we have the vaccine

Take it or not

Sandra


----------



## H1-GBV

People have their own reasons for their beliefs: when we hold different ones from them we sometimes find it difficult to accept how or why they think the way they do.
One of my very best friends, an ex-colleague with a first degree in bio-chemistry and a research degree based on cancer has decided not to have the vaccine. Despite her scientific background she is also qualified in various alternative therapies such as crystal healing and aroma therapy. I know that there is no point in trying to change her mind.

Earlier on this thread several folk, me included, questioned the possible efficacy of the vaccines on offer BECAUSE we have become so used to the Government lying to us and doing anything to further their own agenda. Since then there has been plenty of support for "our" system (especially today) BUT also medical authorities from around the world saying that we are doing things incorrectly. On balance, I have decided to have the jab.

Imagine living for the whole of your life feeling that the country is against you: "stop and search" from the Police; discrimination from landlords, employers, etc (either actual, as it used to be in my youth or just perceived); incorrect deportation and the Windrush scandal; the hostile environment, etc. Then suddenly there is a huge disruption to everyone's lives and the Government TELLS you that you ought to do this for the good of the country BUT some of the Government's own MPs are saying that the wrong decisions are being made. "Idiots" on social media say the vaccine has this or that in it but what if they are not idiots?

How much trust would you place on these different messages?
Do nothing and hope that you will survive? 
Do something and possibly be even worse off?

We used to tell our kids that there isn't a magic light bulb above your head to tell folk when you are lying: either you have a reputation for integrity or you are known to tell lies occasionally and therefore everything you say is suspect. We reap what we sow.

Gordon


----------



## aldra

Yep

We ALL reap what we sow

And we all sow

Across all communities

Sandra


----------



## Pat-H

Yup and we are reaping the decades of mistreatment of minorities in our society. We sowed those issues and now they are the dangers of today.

But this isn't confined to non white policies and treatments. During the Thatcher years the abandonment of working people is still a burden we carry today.
Whole decimated communities, who decimated families. All in the dream of an efficient small state.

Once again we see the danger of the small state and its inability to respond to an emergency when needed. Its worth asking if we see less national/global emergencies in the future or more? So do we need to be prepared or just gamble that its somebody else's problem to respond to?


----------



## jiwawa

aldra said:


> We are are trying to understand why BAME people need to be convinced to have the vaccine especially as many have been British citizens for all their lives
> 
> They need special consideration, we need to expend money to convince them, why?
> 
> Sandra


This is just one reason why black people are suspicious of vaccination.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study


----------



## aldra

Yes and there are many reasons why poor ,disadvantaged white people should also be suspicious and may well be

We all have a degree of uncertainty around a new vaccination

People are still refusing the MMR vaccine for their children 

But Covid deaths speaks for itself, it won’t wait , it’s deadly pandemic and we are all in it together 

The vaccine is attempting to save millions of lives from a deadly disease, the vaccine is the same whether black or white is receiving it 

There may be long term problems from the vaccine but at least we may well live long enough to find out

Meanwhile the dead remain dead

Sandra


----------



## dghr272

jiwawa said:


> This is just one reason why black people are suspicious of vaccination.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study


Unfortunately there are those that will happily remind folk of this to further their own particular twisted views and dogma, not caring for those impacted.

It's an idea not related to that subject either, look how well the Brexit ideology and anti EU dogma was sold to the fishermen and others and some still even believe in it, so it unfortunately does work.

Terry


----------



## H1-GBV

This isn't "covid related" but it may help some folk to understand what lengths our Governments, over the years, will go to in order to further it's own ends:

_Over 20,000 military personnel were present at the UK nuclear weapon tests between 1952 and 1967 in Australia and the South Pacific. The tests were the largest tri-service event since the D-Day landings. Nuclear Test Veterans, who believe they have suffered ill health due to service can apply for no-fault compensation under the War Pensions Scheme which has no time limits and a low standard of proof._

That is taken from a .gov.uk site, so it's not fanciful journalism.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-guidance-for-british-nuclear-test-veterans

I don't think that is what they are doing now in relation to covid but I can't completely object to those who have their own doubts.

Gordon


----------



## Pat-H

There you go again Sandra. A discussion on why non whites aren't being vaccinated and the historic bias that likely led to that and you have to point out white people may also have reason to fear the vaccination.

There is no question that white people are lagging behind in the vaccination. Program. In fact the evidence is the opposite. 

This isn't a game that requires you to counter every issue of bias against non whites with done erroneous claim of white suffering. 
It just comes across as a desperate attempt to counter any discussions of white bias. 
And no matter what you say it exists.


----------



## Penquin

H1-GBV said:


> This isn't "covid related" but it may help some folk to understand what lengths our Governments, over the years, will go to in order to further it's own ends:
> 
> _Over 20,000 military personnel were present at the UK nuclear weapon tests between 1952 and 1967 in Australia and the South Pacific. The tests were the largest tri-service event since the D-Day landings. Nuclear Test Veterans, who believe they have suffered ill health due to service can apply for no-fault compensation under the War Pensions Scheme which has no time limits and a low standard of proof._
> 
> That is taken from a .gov.uk site, so it's not fanciful journalism.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-guidance-for-british-nuclear-test-veterans
> 
> I don't think that is what they are doing now in relation to covid but I can't completely object to those who have their own doubts.
> 
> Gordon


don't forget all those involved in Gulf War 1 & 2 were given multiple injections over a very short time of untested vaccines against "what if Sadaam has developed...." bugs.

That probably lead or contributed to the very high number that afterwards ALL reported similar symptoms of nerve damage and coordination problems as well as susceptibility to infections. All of the attributed symptoms were collectively called "Gulf War Syndrome" and numerous attempts were made to gain some form of recognition or compensation.

All were rejected, repeatedly, as it was said "There was insufficient evidence", very similar to the release from lockdown 1 and the exhortation to eat out and support the restaurant sector over the summer, against scientific advice. Many other such examples of selective understanding have been displayed...l.l


----------



## jiwawa

aldra said:


> But Covid deaths speaks for itself,
> 
> Sandra


They obviously don't, Sandra, to those who won't, or can't, hear.

Education is the key and having the information in your own language, if that's all you're comfortable with, is surely an acceptable way forward?

Hopefully money spent on that will have better results than some of the spaffing up the wall this govt has been involved in.


----------



## aldra

But great effort has been made to ensure information is available in all languages

I was at the Gp this week for a blood test and waited over 25 minutes, unable to sit because the chairs provided had no arms, if I’d sat I would have been unable to get back up, in the event when I queried the wait they had forgotten to book me in, next to the chairs a notice “these chairs are provided for those with disabilities,” Yes Well, and don’t think I hadn’t already pointed that out on a previous visit 

In that time I read the notice board , information in multi languages 

Interpretation services available to all, family are not allowed to interpret , paid interpretations free to those who need the service, an expensive service as my daughter will attest, eats into her budget for all childcare in the community 

In Israel I relied on my son at the GP ect not the best but needs must

I think we have gone a long way to ensuring that everyone can access information in their own language

Even the deaf and blind can now access information as normality

I don’t think we can say we are not providing information in multi languages

Sandra


----------



## jiwawa

Sandra, if you have to be IN the surgery to find there's information available in your language, that's a bit of a problem, is it not? We may be providing the info in multilanguages but if it's not reaching the people who need to know, then it's not much use.

Thinking of myself - I'm forever missing the briefings because they don't seem to advertise very well when they'll take place. If you remember earlier in the pandemic we were having really important announcements made on TV at all different times as the mood took them it seems. It was very difficult to keep up with what was going on.


----------



## Penquin

Communication is the key, sadly there have been numerous examples of an atrocious disregard for the wisdom of those used to delivering information;

Changing times of briefings

Graphs which are too small to see and impossible to understand rather than being built up successively.

"Next slide please" and a total inability to access a specific slide if asked for out of the normal briefing - give him a remote control, wired or wireless they are child's play to use. Use PowerPoint to develop the presentation rather than 15 lines in different colours and a key that cannot be deciphered.

No presentations on TV in ANY language other than English, that I have seen.

Have any of them been "signed" for the profoundly deaf, or subtitled ? Not routinely as far as I have seen.

Leaflets only available if you know where to look - mail drop houses in BAME areas using LA knowledge....

Mixed messages; book holiday / don't book holiday

There are many more I am sure, the outcome is that many people are totally confused. That is not effective communication.


----------



## H1-GBV

Signing (BSE) is on the News Channel 

Gordon


----------



## H1-GBV

Bsl


----------



## Pat-H

Penquin said:


> Communication is the key, sadly there have been numerous examples of an atrocious disregard for the wisdom of those used to delivering information;
> 
> Changing times of briefings
> 
> Graphs which are too small to see and impossible to understand rather than being built up successively.
> 
> "Next slide please" and a total inability to access a specific slide if asked for out of the normal briefing - give him a remote control, wired or wireless they are child's play to use. Use PowerPoint to develop the presentation rather than 15 lines in different colours and a key that cannot be deciphered.
> 
> No presentations on TV in ANY language other than English, that I have seen.
> 
> Have any of them been "signed" for the profoundly deaf, or subtitled ? Not routinely as far as I have seen.
> 
> Leaflets only available if you know where to look - mail drop houses in BAME areas using LA knowledge....
> 
> Mixed messages; book holiday / don't book holiday
> 
> There are many more I am sure, the outcome is that many people are totally confused. That is not effective communication.


You can't communicate effectively if you don't know the message you want to convey or rather you can't risk the true message being conveyed. So you have to disguise the true message behind ineptitude and lies.

And the true message is the government don't give a fig for normal people especially non white normal people. They care about their party donors and their bigger political picture. Small state, low taxation, services provided by private providers, Tax exception for the very rich and a route into that for all those who support the party line.


----------



## erneboy

60% of covid deaths have been among disabled people. There are around 14.1 million disabled people in the UK. That's a group of around 20% of the population suffering 60% of the fatalities. That looks like a catastrophic failure to me.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56033813

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-people-make-six-10-Covid-deaths-England.html


----------



## Penquin

There was some mixed messaging when this was announced yesterday, they said 30,000 disabled people had died "more than half of the total CoVid deaths".

Not in my maths days.....

They have now added the little rider that this was January to November and the total number of deaths they were considering was 59,000. On that figure the maths works, but that was omitted by the presenter or the Editor at the time of announcement.

But it does NOT surprise me and that sort of figure is disgraceful.

As far as the Tory bigwigs are concerned though, it is probably good news as these people are expensive to run....

Them not surviving will same the Treasury a large amount in Benefits payments....

That is one consideration as to why it is so disgusting.


----------



## dghr272

Penquin said:


> Communication is the key, sadly there have been numerous examples of an atrocious disregard for the wisdom of those used to delivering information;
> 
> Changing times of briefings
> 
> Graphs which are too small to see and impossible to understand rather than being built up successively.
> 
> "Next slide please" and a total inability to access a specific slide if asked for out of the normal briefing - give him a remote control, wired or wireless they are child's play to use. Use PowerPoint to develop the presentation rather than 15 lines in different colours and a key that cannot be deciphered.
> 
> No presentations on TV in ANY language other than English, that I have seen.
> 
> Have any of them been "signed" for the profoundly deaf, or subtitled ? Not routinely as far as I have seen.
> 
> Leaflets only available if you know where to look - mail drop houses in BAME areas using LA knowledge....
> 
> Mixed messages; book holiday / don't book holiday
> 
> There are many more I am sure, the outcome is that many people are totally confused. That is not effective communication.


Just a few reasons why some don't put their heads up to feel included and/or get informed in any way, targeted front page headlines delivered nationally to every street corner shop.

Terry


----------



## raynipper

After booking online and getting conformation e-mail and print out we drove 40km to the vaccine centre only to be told we were too old for the AZ and they hadn't got the Pfizer one.
So a complete waste of 80km and the day.

Ray.


----------



## baldlygo

Was that booked via Doctolib Ray?


----------



## Penquin

We are now booked for the Pfizer next Friday morning with the second injection on 17 March, done via Doctolib as France released another 500,000 slots this morning.

At last....


----------



## raynipper

baldlygo said:


> Was that booked via Doctolib Ray?


Yes Dr Lib and sante.fr
But just checked again and no availability in Dept.50.
https://www.sante.fr/cf/centres-vaccination-covid.html#dep-50

Ray.


----------



## raynipper

Just read this Dave................

_Covid-19 vaccine doses are not being sent as priority to the most affected areas in France - and it is a deliberate choice, the Ministry of Health has stated.

Certain departments in France with high rates of Covid-19 at the moment, such as those in the Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur region in the southeast, have vaccinated a comparatively low percentage of people than in departments with lower rates of Covid-19, such as those in Normandy._

Ray.


----------



## Penquin

Yes, I just read that too, along with the article about the enforcement of the 90/180 day visits by U.K. visitors. That will undoubtedly provoke cries of "the EU picking on Brits" although it has been clear this WOULD apply long before the Referendum - it is a direct consequence of Not being any part of the EU area.

But it will be portrayed as the EU's fault.


----------



## JanHank

I have absolutely no idea when it will be my turn, but after 6 months my doctor says, not because of availability, but because yesterday I had my second shingles inoculation and she says there must be at least 6 months between any different inoculation. It´s OK with me, by the time it´s my turn they will know even more than now and I am so busy with my normal tasks, then planning the trip next year, then learning a bit of French and maybe even a bit of Spanish,
I understand it´s important to know how to ask for a beer in every language :grin2:


----------



## raynipper

Penquin said:


> We are now booked for the Pfizer next Friday morning with the second injection on 17 March, done via Doctolib as France released another 500,000 slots this morning. At last....


Thanks Dave................................. I think.?

After seeing your comment I went on their site again and managed to book us both in March 10th. This time it actually says Pfizer and conformation.

Thanks Ray.


----------



## jiwawa

JanHank said:


> ... because yesterday I had my second shingles inoculation and she says there must be at least 6 months between any different inoculation.


Mmm..... Most of us oldies would have had the flu vaccine within the last few months but no-one even asked.


----------



## JanHank

jiwawa said:


> Mmm..... Most of us oldies would have had the flu vaccine within the last few months but no-one even asked.


I didn´t think at the time when she told me this Jean, but the first shingles was given on the same day as my flu jab, one after the other so it must have something to do with the second shingles dose.


----------



## aldra

Apparently it’s not wise to have the Covid and flu vaccine together 

But I see no sign that is done

We had the shingles vaccine a long time ago but as I remember only one injection, and one pneumonia vaccine

But my memory may be suspect >

I’ve never heard a six month rest twix shingles and Covid is required but I’ll certainly follow it through 

Shingles is a nasty affliction, but it won’t kill you 

Sandra


----------



## Penquin

I heard one report that IF you have had a confirmed case of CoVid,bthen you will only need, and get, a single dose of the vaccine as a booster- that seems logical but is there any scientific evidence to justify it ?

I have not heard of any such trials, or of it being a widespread decision, but I suppose it would save a single dose...

Has anyone heard the same or is it my imagination ?


----------



## jiwawa

My daughter had covid just before Christmas and was given her 1st vaccination (as an essential worker) last week, as advised by the Dr.


----------



## dghr272

Penquin said:


> I heard one report that IF you have had a confirmed case of CoVid,bthen you will only need, and get, a single dose of the vaccine as a booster- that seems logical but is there any scientific evidence to justify it ?
> 
> I have not heard of any such trials, or of it being a widespread decision, but I suppose it would save a single dose...
> 
> Has anyone heard the same or is it my imagination ?


Yes me too, I read it here Dave.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/01/health/have-you-had-covid-19-coronavirus.amp.html

Terry


----------



## aldra

Well I certainly had it

Frequent tests have identified I have antibodies 10 months later

And I’ve now had the vaccine, a very sore arm and flu like symptoms and excessive tiredness for a couple of days

In a couple of weeks I’ll have another blood test

Unfortunately it will only identify antibodies, not if they have increased since the vaccine

Sandra


----------



## Penquin

Johnson is to promise in a virtual G7 meeting today that ALL "spare" vaccine will be given to developing countries which have yet to start their vaccination programme. The UK has apparently ordered more than 400 million doses - enough for 200 million people to have two doses each and the UK population is around 65 million.

Did not he promise the EU a few weeks ago when there was a threat to invoke Article 16 that spare doses would go to Europe ?

I'm sure I remember that being said.

Is this yet another example of his facultative memory loss ? One thing IS clear though, the EU will not be happy if what I believed turns out to be yet another story made up at the time and not intended.......

Oh yes, it was Liz (You really can't)Truss(t me.......)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/31/uk-help-eu-not-affect-vaccine-timetable-liz-truss


----------



## Pat-H

He can promise all he wants the key us what they define as "spare"
I bet any unused vaccine won't be spare in the heir eyes. It's a business oppertunity.


----------



## bilbaoman

Today the Basque health service annouced the next that the next group to recieve the vaccine will be those aged over a hundred shows the EU vaccine programme is picking up pace


----------



## Matchlock

Penquin said:


> Johnson is to promise in a virtual G7 meeting today that ALL "spare" vaccine will be given to developing countries which have yet to start their vaccination programme. The UK has apparently ordered more than 400 million doses - enough for 200 million people to have two doses each and the UK population is around 65 million.
> 
> Did not he promise the EU a few weeks ago when there was a threat to invoke Article 16 that spare doses would go to Europe ?
> 
> I'm sure I remember that being said.
> 
> Is this yet another example of his facultative memory loss ? One thing IS clear though, the EU will not be happy if what I believed turns out to be yet another story made up at the time and not intended.......
> 
> Oh yes, it was Liz (You really can't)Truss(t me.......)
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/31/uk-help-eu-not-affect-vaccine-timetable-liz-truss


I read that article and typical of the guardian, they twist the text to meet with their remit, you need to actually read it not just skip through it and replace words, may, possible, could with words more suited to your ideals, the English language and grammar really has gone tits up over the years.


----------



## Penquin

Matchlock said:


> I read that article and typical of the guardian, they twist the text to meet with their remit, you need to actually read it not just skip through it and replace words, may, possible, could with words more suited to your ideals, the English language and grammar really has gone tits up over the years.


I HAVE read that article, several times, carefully but at present am unable to identify where I have changed words "skip through it and replace words, may, possible, could with words more suited to [my] ideals"

Would you please post some examples where I have done that ?

The original promise was made by Nadhim Zahawi at the time it f the abortive threat over Article 16. Zachariah talked about "helping the EU with supply problems" Truss said that they could give spare supplies to the EU, but has declined to say when.

Was that my error ? Interestingly, it was reported elsewhere as a promise to supply spare, but the details of those quotes are behind paywalls and I will not take those routes to help you in your quest for clarity.

If I wish to comment on English Grammar standards, have a look at this direct quote from you;

" _you need to actually read it not just skip through it and replace words, may, possible, could with words more suited to your ideals, the English language and grammar really has gone tits up over the year_"

Is there an error in that quote ? I think there may well be.....


----------



## erneboy

Let's not deconstruct that sentence Dave. There are too many errors to mention in it. I do love the irony of employing the phrase tits up in a sentence complaining about the use of poor English.


----------



## Matchlock

Penquin said:


> I HAVE read that article, several times, carefully but at present am unable to identify where I have changed words "skip through it and replace words, may, possible, could with words more suited to [my] ideals"
> 
> Would you please post some examples where I have done that ?
> 
> The original promise was made by Nadhim Zahawi at the time it f the abortive threat over Article 16. Zachariah talked about "helping the EU with supply problems" Truss said that they could give spare supplies to the EU, but has declined to say when.
> 
> Was that my error ? Interestingly, it was reported elsewhere as a promise to supply spare, but the details of those quotes are behind paywalls and I will not take those routes to help you in your quest for clarity.
> 
> If I wish to comment on English Grammar standards, have a look at this direct quote from you;
> 
> " _you need to actually read it not just skip through it and replace words, may, possible, could with words more suited to your ideals, the English language and grammar really has gone tits up over the year_"
> 
> Is there an error in that quote ? I think there may well be.....


Nit picking will not get you anywhere, we all can turn the written word to satisfy the things we believe in that suits our beliefs, that applies to me and you.


----------



## erneboy

More irony, wonderful. Who started the nitpicking Barry?


----------



## Matchlock

erneboy said:


> Let's not deconstruct that sentence Dave. There are too many errors to mention in it. I do love the irony of employing the phrase tits up in a sentence complaining about the use of poor English.


No matter what I think of you Erneboy my impression is that you are still a self riotous **** that thinks you are above everybody else, that is sad, I'm sure that tits up rang a bell with you.


----------



## erneboy

Matchlock said:


> No matter what I think of you Erneboy my impression is that you are still a self riotous **** that thinks you are above everybody else, that is sad, I'm sure that tits up rang a bell with you.


I expected no less from you Barry. You are a real charmer and you've just demonstrated it to everyone once again. Thank you. The first couple of times people might have put it down to a little lapse but doing it repeatedly removes that possibility.


----------



## Penquin

Matchlock said:


> Nit picking will not get you anywhere, we all can turn the written word to satisfy the things we believe in that suits our beliefs, that applies to me and you.


Sadly, you have chosen not to help me improve my English Grammar standard by giving me the example(s) of where and how I had altered words as I asked.

That saddens me because I am a keen believer in trying to improve by using the wisdom of others.

Perhaps you might like to rethink your acerbic comment and help me in my quest.

Please, feel free, to show me examples of where I have altered (important) words to make them fit what I believe to be correct.

Obviously, my education lacked the finesse that you believe should be apparent.


----------



## dghr272

I suspect it’s ‘Little England good English day’ today as he’s got a write bee in his bonnet.
That’ll just finish him off, right?!

In fairness it all deflects from the output of his great Brexit victory as he can’t rub in all the great benefits.

Terry


----------



## Mrplodd

Had my jab Thursday. Back in early May to get the second one to activate the “Tracking devices” hidden in the first \\/\\/\\/


----------



## jiwawa

Mrplodd said:


> Had my jab Thursday. Back in early May to get the second one to activate the "Tracking devices" hidden in the first


It's a pity you won't be able to go anywhere interesting!


----------



## dghr272

Mrplodd said:


> Had my jab Thursday. Back in early May to get the second one to activate the "Tracking devices" hidden in the first \\/\\/\\/


If you've still got an old helmet/hat, line it with tin foil, that'll confuse their sneaky trackers. In the summer just line your knotted hanky. :wink2:

No thanks required.

Terry


----------



## H1-GBV

Last week I was overjoyed to be told that I can have a jab at my local surgery on Thursday.

This morning my 35y old son (with minor health issues) has got one for the same day at the same place.

Then he has been notified that his 15month-old son's room at nursery has a positive case.

So grandson MAY have to isolate, in which case son will also have to isolate.

They live in a caravan in our garden so are effectively part of our household although we tend to keep well apart: does that mean I will also have to isolate?
So no jab????

Gordon


----------



## jiwawa

I guess you'd need to wait n see if your grandson IS told to isolate. Then decide if you've had contact with any of them in the last 5 days or so.

But there must be loads of people going for jabs who've unwittingly been in contact with an infected person, especially as we go down the age ranges and people have not been more or less isolating themselves. 

Or maybe you should just contact your Dr to ask, if and when your grandson is told to isolate.

You must be gutted at the possibility of missing it. But I guess you'd get it pretty quickly after any isolation. Fingers crossed.


----------



## H1-GBV

UPDATE: Nursery thinks that he is clear but are closing his room for the week.
I would not be surprised if his Dad brings a test home this evening (he is in charge of them at school).

Son gets tested Monday & Thursday: he is clear today.

I SHALL GO AND GET THE JAB!

Gordon


----------



## patp

I agree with you Gordon. Much better to have had the jab stimulate your immune system. As Jean says there must be many people who have unknowingly been in contact with the virus getting vaccinated.


----------



## Penquin

Having had the first is a feeling of relief, no unpleasant side effects like sore arm, lethargy, headaches as suggested MIGHT encounter.

Knowing that my immune system is now beginning the process of producing antibodies and T cells is good, yes it is NOT full immunity, so careful precautions must be maintained, but the thought that serious effects are less likely now is a huge relief.

Second dose in around three weeks in the middle of March, then, of course, it will take time to build the maximum level of immunity but hearing that there is an 84% reduction in transmission for tgevPfizer vaccine, which I had, is another positive thought.

If you can have it, do -* YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE.*. 💉 🤙


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

I had mine two weeks ago, no problems but felt a bit off two days later, Liz had hers last Friday, felt pain in her arm but otherwise okay.


----------



## KeithChesterfield

It's over three weeks since I had my first Pfizer vaccine and I've had absolutely no pain or after effects except one.

Since then I've had the urge to roger like a rabbit.

Unfortunately the bl**dy rabbits are too quick and I haven't managed to catch one yet.

Another eight weeks or so before my second injection of the vaccine and then with my ID Card or Vaccine Passport the outside of my four walls will possibly once more be available.

And if during my first outing to a Pub there is someone before me at the Bar ordering a f*cking coffee they will be in danger of their face putting a dent in my garden shovel.

I hope you all keep well and hopefully look forward to better times.

:nerd:


----------



## Ingo Sundowner

SWMBO booked me in for the jab as she wants me to have it. Guess where with a Northumberland post code? Kendal, yes, southern lake district. The other choice given was Brighton, somewhere down south. Asked her to book that on as it would have been a nice trip out for a few days but by the time she got to the right page it had gone.so she booked Kendal instead. Also booked the second one for 15th May also in Kendal.
Nice couple of over nighters in the MH.
Should also explain that I had rang our GP surgery but they couldn't tell me when I would be able to get it as they don't know how many doses they'll get for the following week.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

Our local vaccination place ran out and won't have any more for at least two weeks.

I just hope all the morons who are saying no to the jab will get real and just do it.


----------



## jiwawa

KeithChesterfield said:


> It's over three weeks since I had my first Pfizer vaccine and I've had absolutely no pain or after effects except one.
> 
> Since then I've had the urge to roger like a rabbit.
> 
> Unfortunately the bl**dy rabbits are too quick and I haven't managed to catch one yet.
> 
> Another eight weeks or so before my second injection of the vaccine and then with my ID Card or Vaccine Passport the outside of my four walls will possibly once more be available.
> 
> And if during my first outing to a Pub there is someone before me at the Bar ordering a f*cking coffee they will be in danger of their face putting a dent in my garden shovel.
> 
> I hope you all keep well and hopefully look forward to better times.
> 
> /images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_glasses.png


Thanks for brightening my afternoon Keith!!


----------



## H1-GBV

Oh dear: just been told that the surgery hasn't got it's expected delivery of vaccine so now I've been rescheduled to next Tuesday.

And on the local FaceBook pages there are folk complaining that they are 65y old and haven't had their's yet!

Gordon (keeping smiling)


----------



## bilbaoman

H1-GBV said:


> Oh dear: just been told that the surgery hasn't got it's expected delivery of vaccine so now I've been rescheduled to next Tuesday.
> 
> And on the local FaceBook pages there are folk complaining that they are 65y old and haven't had their's yet!
> 
> Gordon (keeping smiling)


Ask Matt to have a word with is EU counterparts they might send him the AstraZenica jabs they cannot give away after prof Macrons report on its effectness.


----------



## H1-GBV

To rub salt into the wound, my 35y old son (who was due to get the jab 3h after me) has had his jab rescheduled to Monday, (22h before me).

Everything comes to he who waits (I hope).

Gordon


----------



## Glandwr

A serious study by Oxford University reveals that political allegiance is an indicator of whether you will take or refuse the vaccine to get back to the OP.

Among the findings, Leave voters are much more likely to say no to it with half of Nige's new Reform party saying that they will refuse it. I don't begin to understand them, to me it just confirms my opinion that they are barking!:smile2:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.lb...support-brexit-voter-leave-oxford-university/


----------



## bilbaoman

H1-GBV said:


> To rub salt into the wound, my 35y old son (who was due to get the jab 3h after me) has had his jab rescheduled to Monday, (22h before me).
> 
> Everything comes to he who waits (I hope).
> 
> Gordon


Son who as slight heart problem recieved text this afternoon to book a jab went online and was offered places in 4 centres could have it tomorrow but 15 miles away booked one close to his home for sunday 9-45am also got is appointment for his second dose in may:smile2::smile2:


----------



## dghr272

Glandwr said:


> A serious study by Oxford University reveals that political allegiance is an indicator of whether you will take or refuse the vaccine to get back to the OP.
> 
> Among the findings, Leave voters are much more likely to say no to it with half of Nige's new Reform party saying that they will refuse it. I don't begin to understand them, to me it just confirms my opinion that they are barking!:smile2:
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.lb...support-brexit-voter-leave-oxford-university/


Can't find it now, but was it not the 'German' Pfizer vaccine that was being said no to, as they wanted the 'British' Oxford vaccine ?

Terry


----------



## bilbaoman

See Pfizer now say its vaccine can be stored at domestic freezer temperatures for up to 2 weeks before use must be trying to attract buyers from the less developed nations


----------



## DJMotorhomer

I received the Pfizer vaccine today with no side affects at all

Dave


----------



## bilbaoman

Good news in the Basque Country over hundreds now complete starting to vaccinate over 90s on monday so looks like us over 70 could get it in may


----------



## patp

Good news! My brother in the States is getting his soon. He is over 70.


----------



## raynipper

We get ours March 10th. all being well.

ray.


----------



## Penquin

Get our second on March 17th, absolutely no after effects; no sore arm, headache, lethargy, raised temperature or anything else. That was of course, Pfizer/BionTech as I am deemed "too old" for the Oxford /AstraZeneca vaccine by Professor Dr. Macron (not).

Go for it without any concern when you are offered it.


----------



## Pat-H

Just had the AZ jab this morning.


----------



## raynipper

Yep had our first last week and second will be April 7th. Pfizer jab. Sore arm for a couple of days but nothing more.

Ray.


----------



## rayc

From the BBC:
"There were 13,107 deaths registered in the UK in the week of 5 March, 3% above the usual level for this time of year.

Last week, they were 9% above usual levels.

2,279 of these deaths involved Covid-19, down by 920 on the previous week.

Statisticians advise that the weekly death figure can rise and fall by 5% due to chance variation, so this is within the “normal range” of deaths for early March in a non-pandemic year."

I am looking forward to my second AZ jab on 20th April, 12 weeks after the original.


----------



## raynipper

We are all a very finely balanced mix of chemicals and a bit too much one way or the other and we die. No good praying as that hasn't worked for over 2000 years.

Ray.


----------



## rayc

Perception of risk is a strange thing to analyse.

With regard to the current actions of some countries with regards to the AZ it is interesting to hear the views of Silvestro Scotti, head of the Italian Federation of General Practitioners. He said today "The crazy thing is that, even if the correlation between the vaccine and blood clots were proved, it would be a rate of 0.007 out of a thousand. To give an example: the birth control pill, which is used widely and doesn't worry anyone, has a proven risk rate of 0.6 in a thousand. Even in the worst-case scenario, the risk/benefit ratio for this vaccine is extraordinarily favourable. That needs to be explained to people"

and

"The World Health Organisation's Margaret Harris has said 268 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines from various developers have been administered worldwide and none have been shown to cause a single death"


----------



## patp

There seems to be not a single medical expert who agrees with them. It beggars belief that they are gambling with people's lives rather than admit a failure on their part to order enough doses or, in one case, to wait for their own vaccine.


----------



## dghr272

I suspect the political response to the AZ vaccine is them doing what politicians always do, ‘make a silk purse out of a sows ear’, the ear being them being too slow not to order enough in the first place.

Blood clots happened every day before vaccination, and I’ve seen no proof that it’s suddenly outside normal occurrences. Considering the impact of COVID I’d take my chances.

Terry


----------



## Penquin

rayc said:


> From the BBC:
> 
> Statisticians advise that the weekly death figure can rise and fall by 5% due to chance variation, so this is within the "normal range" of deaths for early March in a non-pandemic year."


Interesting since that plus or minus 5% being due to chance was totally ignored as regards the Referendum, although it had been pointed out before the vote, and has been pointed out since.

The out vote beloved by Peribro as an example of democracy is a load of cr9p - the leave marking was way too small and should have been treated as "insignificant - the vote should be repeated" under all normal statistic analysis.

I know this is {offtopic} but it bears saying.

The AZ vaccine is safe, clots occur frequently and there is no demonstrated valid correlation between clots and receiving the vaccine.


----------



## jiwawa

rayc said:


> "The crazy thing is that, even if the correlation between the vaccine and blood clots were proved, it would be a rate of 0.007 out of a thousand. To give an example: the birth control pill, which is used widely and doesn't worry anyone, has a proven risk rate of 0.6 in a thousand. Even in the worst-case scenario, the risk/benefit ratio for this vaccine is extraordinarily favourable. That needs to be explained to people"


One problem of their taking the route they have is that trust in vaccines will be even further eroded. They were having enough problems as it was.

Absolutely, we need to monitor possible connections but the latest death rate figure for covid is 1.4 per 100 thousand in UK, as opposed to the 0.007 from clots after vaccination - and still no proof that the vaccine caused the clotting.

I'm due my 2nd AZ 2nd half of April and, as things stand, I'll certainly be taking it.


----------



## fdhadi

Both my wife and I booked for this Thursday. Not sure which vaccine we will have but not bothered.


----------



## raynipper

The precautionary principle is literally killing Europe

European leaders have destroyed confidence in the AstraZeneca vaccine, meaning even more people will die

I think from the Torygraph.

Ray.


----------



## Pat-H

Well had a horrid night last night. shivers started about 7pm and by bedtime I just couldn't keep warm.
This morning I have a heavy head and ache all over. But got a busy mornings so hopefully that will take my mind off things.


----------



## raynipper

Sorry to hear that Pat, do you put it all down to the jab or are there any 'underlying' health issues there?

Ray.


----------



## Mrplodd

But you are still around to talk about it. Hundreds of thousands have not been so fortunate!

We deliberately had our jabs in the evening so would be asleep should there be any adverse effects. We both woke in the early hours feeling as though we were in an oven! But we’re fine the next day so I think the tactic is worth considering by others


----------



## Glandwr

I and the wife had the Pfizer (by chance). Absolutely no side affects other than I had to sit down in the afternoon:wink2:. But I've talked to 4 people in the last couple of days that had the AZ by (chance) and 3 had what they described as a very unpleasant side affects 2 said it went on for days. Not scientific by any means. Just looked at the AZ share price to see if there was a indicator there. Nothing untoward.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

We came to the conclusion that getting the jab was a no brainer, we might feel rough for a while but the jab was fine we didn't feel it, I felt crap 2 days later, liz has been fine. I cannot understand the reasoning for not doing all we can to stay safe and take advantage of whatever the NHS offers us.


----------



## Pat-H

raynipper said:


> Sorry to hear that Pat, do you put it all down to the jab or are there any 'underlying' health issues there?
> 
> Ray.


No normally fit as a fiddle. My son in law also had the AZ jab and was laid up the next day. My wife had less of a reaction but it went on for longer.

It was definitely the jab that caused it but its a price worth paying.


----------



## barryd

Had mine on Monday, was fine for 24 hours then since yesterday lunchtime have been pretty awful. Hot then cold, aching everywhere, waking up feeling like I have a hangover from hell and I fell asleep twice yesterday during the day which is unheard of for me. 

Some are saying that having side effects is a good thing though as it proves your immune system is working and the vaccine will be more effective but it could just be social media chatter.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

I suppose if you mess with the immune system anything can happen, it's a fine balance and we are all chemically different, so you get different reactions.


----------



## patp

It is the medics that are saying it is a good sign if you have a reaction.


----------



## ChrisandJohn

I've just had my invitation to my 2nd Covid jab (Pfizer) - booked for next Weds. 

I only had the usual sore arm with the first one, but John, who had the Oxford/AstraZeneca one, did have mild flu like symptoms for a day.

Chris


----------



## H1-GBV

patp said:


> It is the medics that are saying it is a good sign if you have a reaction.


That worries me because I had no effects whatsoever (OAZ).
It makes me wonder if I just got tapwater! :wink2:
AND there's no way to check if it's had any effect unless I ask for an antibody count next time I get a blood test. :frown2:
I guess I'll just have to take my chances.

Gordon


----------



## patp

The same medics are telling us to drink plenty of water and take paracetamol every four hours.

I wonder if those of us that did not react may have had Covid and been asymptomatic? Chris and I have always wondered if we had it on our return from Spain. He was quite poorly for 24 hours and I was a bit poorly for about 12 hours. Would be lovely to know but no chance now.


----------



## jiwawa

patp said:


> The same medics are telling us to drink plenty of water and take paracetamol every four hours.


And avoid alcohol for a couple of weeks after to give the antibodies the best chance. Apparently.


----------



## ChrisandJohn

Son and his wife had their first Covid jabs last Saturday - in the lovely setting of Salisbury cathedral.

Chris


----------



## raynipper

jiwawa said:


> And avoid alcohol for a couple of weeks after to give the antibodies the best chance. Apparently.


Garrrnnn, thats a new one Jean. Especially this side of La Manche.

Ray.


----------



## Pat-H

raynipper said:


> Garrrnnn, thats a new one Jean. Especially this side of La Manche.
> 
> Ray.


There isn't much evidence either way on consuming alcohol and its effect on the vaccine but at worst its an issue for those consuming large quantities as binge drinking is known to impact the immune system.
I suspect the odd beer or glass of wine will have no impact at all.


----------



## rayc

barryd said:


> Had mine on Monday, was fine for 24 hours then since yesterday lunchtime have been pretty awful. Hot then cold, aching everywhere, waking up feeling like I have a hangover from hell and I fell asleep twice yesterday during the day which is unheard of for me.
> 
> Some are saying that having side effects is a good thing though as it proves your immune system is working and the vaccine will be more effective but it could just be social media chatter.


Apparently age is a factor "The older you are, the less the side effects - the over-70s have almost no side effects."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56375307

The UK had reached the milestone of giving a first dose of a coronavirus vaccination to 25 million people exactly 100 days after the first jab was delivered in the country. It stands to reason if the annual flu jab is anything to go by that of that 25 million a percentage will feel unwell.


----------



## raynipper

Regarding the AZ jab, there are side effects to flying like DVT and crashing. Do we all stop flying as these 'side effects' are probably more common.

Ray.


----------



## Penquin

Had our second dose today, incredibly efficient system and we are given proof that we have had two doses of Pfizer/BionTech with the batch number. EU talks are apparently ongoing about vaccination passports but some are saying it would be discriminatory against those that have not had the chance to receive it, which of course is true.

P&O today announced that while you do not have to be vaccinated to BOOK a cruise, you do in order to walk up the gangway. That of course, is age discriminatory against ALL children who CANNOT be vaccinated, so that may prove interesting. Admittedly, not many over 65's take their U18 children with them, but it still discriminates.

Nothing is ever simple is it ? But at least we now should have a 95% immunity after another three weeks from what we were told today by the Doctor countersigning it.


----------



## Pat-H

Well things look to be owing for the under 50s due to severe shortages in supply.
I wonder if they will prioritise the second doses or forgo those to get more first doses out.


----------



## Penquin

Pat-H said:


> Well things look to be owing for the under 50s due to severe shortages in supply.
> I wonder if they will prioritise the second doses or forgo those to get more first doses out.


Prioritise second dose, so fewer first doses will be given, according to GP on BBC Breakfast this morning (Dr. Rosemary Lennard ?).


----------



## JanHank

My friend Horst up the road is 84 he had his first jab yesterday so I still have a while to wait, may not even get it before my tour starts. As I don’t anticipate partying or mixing any more than I do now I don’t think it will make any difference.


----------



## JanHank

I forgot to ask, if those who take blood thinners were you told to stop taking them the a day before the vaccination as they do here?

Advice given here.

*Blood Thinners*

If you are taking a blood thinner, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) recommends informing your vaccine provider when you go in for your COVID-19 shot. Blood thinners prevent clotting, so even a small injury such as a needle piercing the skin can cause more bleeding or bruising than usual.

Neither the FDA nor the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) say you shouldn't receive a coronavirus vaccination just because you are on a blood thinner.
Stephen Moll, a professor of medicine at the University of North Carolina (UNC) and the medical director of Clot Connect at the UNC Blood Research Center, reiterates in a January blog post that people on blood thinners should get the COVID-19 vaccine. If you are taking a blood thinner, like warfarin, Eliquis, Pradaxa, Savaysa, Xarelto, Lovenox, Arixtra or another antiplatelet drugs, here are some things to watch for, he says:
You probably will have a higher risk of bruising at the injection site.
Keep pressure on the site of the injection for at least five minutes to reduce the risk of bruising.
The smallest possible needle should be used. Ask for a 25-gauge size needle.
Consider skipping one dose of your blood thinner, but be sure to check with your doctor before doing so.


----------



## raynipper

I dare not rock the boat Jan even though I do take a bp tab most days. Didn't want to give em an excuse not to jab me. 
We have a medical card in France like a Credit Card and we present it at every doctor, pharmacy, clinic and hospital and it displays our record.

Ray.


----------



## Penquin

As Ray says, we go nowhere without our _Carte vitale_, interesting that it is the FDA making such a pronouncement, not the EMA or the MHRA so "watch this space" as to whether they follow that or the FDA quietly lets it die.

The recent concerns about blood clots would suggest the opposite of stopping taking it to my mind..... but I am not a Doctor, if there is ANY possibility of a clot, you would want to minimise it.

Interesting also that the most commonly used blood affecting drug is not in that list; aspirin has a marked effect on blood as anyone that takes it daily and then suffers a small nick will testify I am sure.....

All in all, we are all still fairly in the dark about a lot of things regarding this virus and ALL of the vaccines and that level of knowledge will only become available over a number of years with increasing experience. Generally many of these things would probably have been considered during testing, but any delays on implementation of this vaccine will increase fatalities.

Mixed thoughts therefore but the vaccine will not work in the fridge, only in the arm.... very true.


----------



## JanHank

There are many times blood thinners need to be stopped for a short period, when Hans had to stop his for a few weeks he was given the injections to self administer.

Horst has shown me the paper he was given yesterday, his second appointment is April 14th so no 12 weeks wait. He also says he still feels fine today.


----------



## patp

Chris is on Aspirin and we were asked if we were on blood thinners. The doctor that vaccinated us explained it is to do with the injection site which may bleed more. He just told Chris to press down more firmly on the injection site.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

I thought it was common knowledge that if you have a jab or give blood to press for 5 minutes to prevent a bruise & pain as a matter of course.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

It seems that drugs these days have a long list of side effects many include blood clots, I'm sure they just change the name of the drug as they seem to be more or less the same list, rendering them useless.


----------



## patp

I am too tight to bleed. I always tell them and they never believe me. They say hold that on there firmly and I duly take it off just to prove that I am not bleeding just like I told 'em!


----------



## dghr272

Pudsey_Bear said:


> I thought it was common knowledge that if you have a jab or give blood to press for 5 minutes to prevent a bruise & pain as a matter of course.


Correct Kev, I'm on 75mgs of Clipidogrel since my stroke. When getting my jab the nurse did ask but just asked me to press hard after the deed, just a spot of blood so she stuck a plaster on it, no further issues.
When I had my guided hip injections a month ago they did ask me to stop taking it for two days before the procedure.

Our treatment room nurse neighbour always advises hard pressure after getting bloods done as it reduces bruising even if your not on blood thinners.

I have stopped my sulfasalazine meds months ago, an immunosuppression used against my arthritis, as until I'm fully covered the last thing I want to be doing is suppress my bodies capacity to fight an infection like covid.

Terry


----------



## dghr272

patp said:


> I am too tight to bleed. I always tell them and they never believe me. They say hold that on there firmly and I duly take it off just to prove that I am not bleeding just like I told 'em!


Ha don't want to worry you BUT, I used to be exactly same, they then told me my "sticky" (their description) blood was the likely cause of my stroke last year. The Clopidogrel I'm on now makes it less "sticky". :surprise::grin2:

Terry


----------



## raynipper

It's OK all back on now.

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/european-countries-resume-using-astrazeneca-201240297.html

Ray.


----------



## patp

dghr272 said:


> Ha don't want to worry you BUT, I used to be exactly same, they then told me my "sticky" (their description) blood was the likely cause of my stroke last year. The Clopidogrel I'm on now makes it less "sticky". :surprise::grin2:
> 
> Terry


I asked my GP should I take a low dose Aspirin a day as is often recommended. Just eat an apple he told me. I have posted elsewhere about how tight he is with the drugs we pay for.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear




----------



## Mrplodd

All this fuss about the AZ vaccine is madness.Just look at the *possible * side effects listed on the back of a packet of paracetamol, people take them without a thought !!


----------



## Pat-H

Mrplodd said:


> All this fuss about the AZ vaccine is madness.Just look at the *possible * side effects listed on the back of a packet of paracetamol, people take them without a thought !!


The difference is paracetamol has a track record and decades of research.
The vaccine side effects are only just being discovered and it is right that these things are investigated. They did that and are confident to continue.
There would be an uproar if issues were ignored and a major problem emerged.


----------



## barryd

To be honest I think we had to trust the vaccine experts. There simply wasnt time for years and years of testing. I was happy to take it, delighted in fact. If down the line I drop down dead or grew a second head or something as result of taking it so be it. I wouldn't be looking to blame anyone or demanding compensation. We had to take a tiny bit of a gamble if we were to stand a chance of getting on top of this thing. Jeeesaz! Its got to be better than dying of Covid, becoming seriously ill with the possibility of long covid or being locked down for ever and a day. 

Frankly I am amazed so many are unwilling to take it.


----------



## Penquin

One of the major problems is that every one of us has a different background some thoughts;

Are any of the people taking the pill (OK not likely with 50+ recipients, and even less with those in their 70's 🤣 )

Are any taking aspirin or heparain, warfarin etc ? Their response may differ and there are numerous similar drugs. Sadly many people (particularly those over 70) simply tell you_ " I take a white, waterworks tablet and a red one for my heart as well as a couple of others, but I don't remember their name or what they are for......_" That is genuinely what I have OFTEN heard when people need and summon a 999 ambulance.

But, from my experience (OK that's here not the UK) those giving the vaccine don't ask such questions. Maybe my experience is atypical. I sincerely hope so.......


----------



## Penquin

If, and that's a big if, you wish to travel in the EU and have had two foses of an approved vaccine or have had CoVid and recovered, not more than 180 days before, or have had a negative per or lateral flow test, you are or will be, entitled to get this so that you can travel to countries within the EU.

https://www.connexionfrance.com/Fre...il&utm_term=0_9b5fbe85b4-ca1c4eeaae-358495333

This is a proposal not actually available yet but could be of value...


----------



## patp

The words "present it to your travel company" fill me with dread. When we were trying to get home last year there was zero help for those of us driving home. Those using the ferries were treated nearly as badly. All help was aimed at those using the airlines. Any statement issuing from the British Embassy was only ever centred around those trying to fly home.

I did email the British Embassy but we were nearly home by the time they replied with anything like a sensible answer.


----------



## baldlygo

Good news for us this morning. We had a visit from our commune maire adjoint who is going to organise a coach from the village to take us for vaccinations. There are less than a thousand inhabitants in our rural commune so it is very nice to know we are being considered and included. When we actually get our vaccinations of course is another matter but it is a good start.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

barryd said:


> To be honest I think we had to trust the vaccine experts. There simply wasnt time for years and years of testing. I was happy to take it, delighted in fact. If down the line I drop down dead or grew a second head or something as result of taking it so be it. I wouldn't be looking to blame anyone or demanding compensation. We had to take a tiny bit of a gamble if we were to stand a chance of getting on top of this thing. Jeeesaz! Its got to be better than dying of Covid, becoming seriously ill with the possibility of long covid or being locked down for ever and a day.
> 
> Frankly I am amazed so many are unwilling to take it.


OH no, not having you doing a bloody duet with yourself, no, no way.


----------



## Penquin

baldlygo said:


> Good news for us this morning. We had a visit from our commune maire adjoint who is going to organise a coach from the village to take us for vaccinations. There are less than a thousand inhabitants in our rural commune so it is very nice to know we are being considered and included. When we actually get our vaccinations of course is another matter but it is a good start.


609 in ours in 2019, it was 696 in 2009

But we have heard nothing since being given 6 masks each last year.


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## raynipper

Just had a call from our Pharmacy offering first jabs. But as we have had first jab last week had to decline.

Ray.


----------



## Penquin

We have just had to drive back 55 km each way as the certificate issued to MrsW has her down for another dose in three weeks time, even with an arranged appointment. Don't think she needs THREE doses....

Went there, no secretary, cone back Monday (dream on), eventually receptionist for vaccination centre checked on card and computer record......

First dose had not been recorded, mine had, hers hadn't.

Can't search the old paperwork, can't do this, can't do that.....

As a last resort, she took a copy, wrote some notes on it and told us to ring Monday morning.....

Oh dear, France is the home of bureaucracy, but this record has failed..... 

We asked for the correct certificate to be posted - shock, horror, not sure they can do that......

Watch this space.

But, one bonus. We went to a Motorhome centre celebrating a birthday (50 years of "expertise" - in a building less than 2 years old....

We wanted and bought an outside floor covering for under the awning to keep the MH cleaner. 2.50 m x 5.00 m, 500g per sq m (the heaviest), list price 120€.

We had a 30€ "Birthday bonus" + a 10% discount for this weekend.......

We were actually asked for, and paid 39€, yes 39€.

We have no clue how they arrived at that due, but paid rapidly and went yo look round the 80,000€ + vehicles, ouch....... they had a maximum of 2 burners for cooking, no electric hob, no TV or Satellite fish, no oven and all had a fixed rear bed.

I don't think we will be changing our trusty Swift (even if we could knit the 80,000€ + needed.....), I doubt that even their counting system would have reduced them to 39€ 🙄😢


----------



## jiwawa

Penquin said:


> even if we could knit the 80,000€ + needed....


Ooh, I like the idea of knitting 80,000€ Dave - are you giving lessons?

Just going to look out my pins!


----------



## Pat-H

Now the retired folk have been vaccinated it looks like it's going to be slower to cover the rest.
Nearly half of working age people polled are having trouble get vaccinated as employers refuse paid time off for staff.


----------



## jiwawa

Indonesia is vaccinating its working age population first, on the assumption that that will keep the economy going while at the same time protecting the elderly as many live in multigenerational households.


----------



## Pat-H

Looks like care home staff will be mandatory vaccinated.
Once that's established I can't see how it can't ripple to other lines of work or access.


----------



## bilbaoman

The vaccine is getting closer a mass vaccine unit is being set up in the park behind our house all we need now is VDL to supply the the vaccine


----------



## raynipper

Vets and dentists can give Covid-19 jabs, says French health body
The plan is to speed up vaccination with a greater number of doses due to be delivered in April.

Vets????

Ray.


----------



## erneboy

In the scruff of your neck Ray, and then you get a biscuit.


----------



## patp

Why not vets Ray. If they can stick a needle in a feral cat or an angry stallion I am sure they will manage to vaccinate a few willing humans!


----------



## KeithChesterfield

My son and daughter have been working throughout the pandemic – he works for a building firm and she is a Manager at a well known Supermarket – and at last they are both getting their first vaccines.
My son's wife had the jab today and my son, my daughter and her partner (who also has worked for the last year) get their jab tomorrow.
We feel much happier knowing they will all have some protection against Covid and we may drink to their continued good health at some point during this weekend.
Why many people do not want the vaccine is a mystery to me.........

:wav::wav::wav::wav:


----------



## Penquin

If they can vaccinate a tiger, they ought to be able to cope with most Frenchmen.....


----------



## raynipper

It's the people who are crazy.

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/police-clash-anti-lockdown-protesters-092446821.html

Ray.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

I see William Wallace was there too ffs.

this took place right outside where Liz and I get our jabs.


----------



## Pat-H

Pudsey_Bear said:


> I see William Wallace was there too ffs.
> 
> this took place right outside where Liz and I get our jabs.


Be interesting to see Patels and Johnsons comments on this demonstration. They were quick to condemn those protesting about the removal of our rights. What say they on this?


----------



## barryd

Pat-H said:


> Be interesting to see Patels and Johnsons comments on this demonstration. They were quick to condemn those protesting about the removal of our rights. What say they on this?


They were protesting about the same thing were they not? The protest bill.


----------



## Pat-H

barryd said:


> They were protesting about the same thing were they not? The protest bill.


These were anti lockdown protesters I think. Protesting about the limiting of their right to spread infection and go about their daily lives.


----------



## patp

Can we not find an uninhabited island somewhere for them all to mingle?


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## Pat-H

patp said:


> Can we not find an uninhabited island somewhere for them all to mingle?


The Falkland's. Be good for it to actually have a use after all....


----------



## Penquin

That’s not fair 



















On the REAL sheep there... 🐏🐑🐑🐑🐏🐏🐏🐏🐑🐏🐏🐏🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐏🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐐🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑


----------



## Jeallom

I am not sure it's safe, I really have doubts that's why I don't want to get a covid vaccine for now. I think it's better to take care of yourself and strengthen the immune. I consulted a doctor, he prescribed me to take vitamin D, C, B12. By the way, I buy all the meds at Canadian pharmacy, hope it's useful for someone.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

Doubts about what for instance? it's too late if you get the virus.


----------



## Jeallom

Side effects


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

There are no drugs without side effects, walking down the street can have side effects, unless you are prone to them I'd not worry too much about the vaccine.

Do you read the side effects leaflets for all the drugs you take, I think the media is responsible for all this rubbish.


----------



## Penquin

Jeallom said:


> I am not sure it's safe, I really have doubts that's why I don't want to get a covid vaccine for now. I think it's better to take care of yourself and strengthen the immune. I consulted a doctor, he prescribed me to take vitamin D, C, B12. By the way, I buy all the meds at Canadian pharmacy, hope it's useful for someone.


In the UK more than 126,000 people would have wished to have had the chance to have had a vaccine.

Sadly, by NOT having the vaccine YOU are putting other people at risk as you simply pass amongst them. Your concoction Vit D, B12 etc., is designed to strengthen the immune response system. Sadly, CoVid can overcome such things although you MIGHT be reducing your chance lightly.

Yes, side effects are known for all of the vaccines, but those side effects are generally very small and manageable at home. Every medication that you take has side effects, even Vitamin D have a read through this link

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-929/vitamin-d

The side effects, weakness, fatigue, possible hardening of arteries, excess build up of calcium etc., are explained way down the page......

That sort of detail exists for EVERY medication, even aspirin (not suitable for children underage 12' and Paracetamol - slight overdose can be fatal.

I believe safety for everyone depends on as wide spread uptake of possible and will react very strongly to posts advising against.


----------



## Mrplodd

Jeallom said:


> I am not sure it's safe, I really have doubts that's why I don't want to get a covid vaccine for now. I think it's better to take care of yourself and strengthen the immune. I consulted a doctor, he prescribed me to take vitamin D, C, B12. By the way, I buy all the meds at Canadian pharmacy, hope it's useful for someone.


Thirty million in the U.K. have now had the vaccination, just how much more proof do you need?

I imagine it is rather difficult to breathe with your head in the sand., but I don't know.


----------



## Pat-H

I think dawinian theory will resolve the vaccine doulters.
Covid will be around in society for the foreseeable future and not being vaccinated means you will get exposed at some point. 
Evidence already shows its impossible to measure who it effects and to what degree.
Having a weak immune system is clearly more dangerous but plenty who had strong immunity died.
It's balancing risk and the odds of dying from covid are way higher than the risks of the vaccines side effects.


----------



## bc109

Turned 80 in March. Off to get my first jab today. Survived all the gubbins the British Army jabbed in my arm during 22 years of service. I trust I will survive this one.

Day of celebration !
Bill


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

Pat-H said:


> Evidence already shows its impossible to measure who it effects and to what degree.


Is that an April fool oxymoron?


----------



## Pat-H

Pudsey_Bear said:


> Is that an April fool oxymoron?


For clarity there is little evidence of how to identify who will get Covid and to what degree they will suffer or die.

So its not possible to say I'm not likely to get it or if I do I'll be ok.

Unless you have a compromised immune system in which case yes the risks are greater.

But also there is no point taking supplements to boost your immune system if you are effectively isolating. Your immune system will be weaker for lack of exposure to infections.

Taking a bunch of vitamins and supplements is a poor substitute for being vaccinated and of course as a non vaccinated person you present a risk to others in potentially catching and spreading it.


----------



## aldra

My second vaccination this Saturday 

I am very grateful having suffered Covid I wouldn’t wish it on another

It won’t actually change my life as far as going out and about, unfortunately arthritis has already put me into isolation 

But as time goes on those I love can comeback into my life

I’d be sad if there are side effects to some who have the vaccine, but I feel quite sure Covid has much more dangerous side effects to those who get it

The number of deaths is testimony to that

Hopefully the vaccination will save many lives, if the spread of Covid and its variations are to be believed those who are young and not yet are at risk soon will be

The virus is out to survive

We have to join the fight to prevent it surviving , if the vaccine is the way then we all need to welcome it , it just may save our kids and grandkids 

We have brilliant scientists who will meet each variations, but first we must tackle the present variants 

Meanwhile people crowding together as lockdown releases is complete and utter madness

More than madness it risks your and my kids as they spread the disease

How stupid is that

Sandra


----------



## aldra

Second dose now done

May be side effects as the first vaccination gives antibodies I was told

I already had antibodies before the first, a touch flu..ish and a sore arm after that

Let me tell those who are concerned about the side effects of the vaccination 

The side effects of Covid , so called long Covid , are much much worse and last a long time

I have only just got sensation back into my hands and feet , 12 months later 

Don’t risk it

Sandra


----------



## bilbaoman

Good news in the Basque Country they have started the over 60s bad news the 70s and 80s are waitng due to vaccine shortages as they are not allowed to have the Oxford vaccine so we must wait for VDL to supply us with the superior EU or American designed vaccine


----------



## jiwawa

Are they still using AZ on younger folk?

There seems to be resistance to that. I was reading this morning that the CSVT clots are similar to what very occasionally happens with people on Hepterin blood thinner.

As a Dr friend of mine says no one knows they're allergic to penicillin until after they've had it, and it doesn't put most people off having it.


----------



## erneboy

Not here Jean.


----------



## bilbaoman

In the Basque Country yes daughter 43 had hers she is a teacher also they have been giving it to the police and firemen and using it on the 60s its 12 weeks between jabs all the other vaccines are 4 weeks


----------



## aldra

We had the Pfizer vaccine 

So couldn’t really comment

Sandra


----------



## raynipper

We had our second Pfizer jabs yesterday and now we have two certificates each to prove it.
Even though we have small little booklets to record vaccines they don't do that.

So I have printed back to back and reduced them in size to A5 and plasticised them but still too large to carry around. Might just take a pic and keep in the camera.

Ray.


----------



## KeithChesterfield

Eight days before the second Pfizer vaccine for us both - and haircuts booked on the same day - could be a better day than Christmas Day ........


----------



## greygit

Had a phone call from the health authority in Murcia last night, I'm booked for the vaccine this Friday, I hope it’s not the Oxford one that they have now changed the name of as it is a little doubtful of its safety.


----------



## jiwawa

greygit said:


> Had a phone call from the health authority in Murcia last night, I'm booked for the vaccine this Friday, I hope it's not the Oxford one that they have now changed the name of as it is a little doubtful of its safety.


I don't think there's any problem with its safety in older people. Even in younger people the risk from the vaccine is lower than the risk from covid tho I understand why people would be hesitant. I'm due my 2nd AZ a week Fri.


----------



## patp

It has been blown out of all proportion. It is far safer than the pill!


----------



## rayc

ITV news is reporting that "The US has recommended a "pause" in use of the single-dose Johnson & Johnson (J&J) Covid-19 jab in order to investigate six reports of potentially dangerous blood clots."
In a joint statement released on Tuesday, the Centres for Disease Control (CDC) and Prevention and the Food and Drug Administration said they were investigating clots in six women in the days after vaccination, in combination with reduced platelet counts. More than 6.8 million doses of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine have been administered in the US.

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-04-13...n-and-johnson-jab-over-six-blood-clot-reports

It will be a shame if there are questions over its safety as it is single shot and relatively easy to store and distribute.


----------



## Penquin

Interesting as that sounds similar to the comments about the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine.

I wonder whether the clots occurred in the same place and a similar time after vaccination as the AZ vaccine reports. Both seem to cause reduction in platelets which would tend to lead to LESS clotting AFAIK. Clotting is a complex process involving 14 different steps (including Factor 8 the haemophilia related chemical) and some white blood cells. Generally with reduced platelets bruising is more common as the blood does not clot.

I suspect research will be taking place into any causal links......... rapidly.


----------



## jiwawa

patp said:


> It has been blown out of all proportion. It is far safer than the pill!


I think the difference is that the pill has been around for years and people's experience is that it is 'safe', whereas, although the figures for the AZ vaccine are better than for the pill, we don't actually have that 'lived experience' that it is really quite safe.

That, I think, feeds into people's fears that the vaccines were developed 'in a rush' and it all leads to hesitancy.


----------



## Penquin

The pill has been known to cause clots for many years, but initially that was unknown, exactly the same as clots possibly linked with two vaccines are unknown.

Over the years things may be one clearer as regards the risks and other factors eg are the clots found in underweight people, or overweight people or are they sex linked or age linked or underlying conditions linked?

There are very many questions that need to be asked and answered but the simple fact is that the risk from the vaccine is very much lower than the risks of serious CoVid or long-CoVid or hospitalisation of death........

If offered the vaccine, take the chance and have it.


----------



## rayc

jiwawa said:


> I think the difference is that the pill has been around for years and people's experience is that it is 'safe', whereas, although the figures for the AZ vaccine are better than for the pill, we don't actually have that 'lived experience' that it is really quite safe.
> 
> That, I think, feeds into people's fears that the vaccines were developed 'in a rush' and it all leads to hesitancy.


There has been very little hesitancy in the UK phase 1 groups 1-9. The take up has been well in excess of 90% in all groups.
As of the end of Sunday, April 11, the number of people in the UK to have been given a first dose of a Covid-19 vaccine is 32,190,576 
A total of 7,656,205 second doses have been administered.
Of course there may be greater hesitancy in Phase 2, the non vulnerable 18 - 50 years old people. This may be more likely in the younger age groups as relatively few of them have ended up in hospital or died as a result of Covid.
There is no doubt that the vaccines were produced in a rush with the death toll being the main driver. It is interesting to see the take up of the Russian Sputnick V vaccine among European countries. It is reported that Germany wants to purchase it but not until the EMA have authorised it. They would then be prepared to push ahead without the rest of the EU to purchase doses of the Russian Sputnik V virus vaccine. https://www.euractiv.com/section/co...mep-as-germany-moves-to-secure-russian-shots/


----------



## rayc

Penquin said:


> Interesting as that sounds similar to the comments about the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine.
> 
> I wonder whether the clots occurred in the same place and a similar time after vaccination as the AZ vaccine reports. Both seem to cause reduction in platelets which would tend to lead to LESS clotting AFAIK. Clotting is a complex process involving 14 different steps (including Factor 8 the haemophilia related chemical) and some white blood cells. Generally with reduced platelets bruising is more common as the blood does not clot.
> 
> I suspect research will be taking place into any causal links......... rapidly.


Breaking news from the BBC: 
"Johnson & Johnson says it's going to delay the rollout of its vaccine in Europe, and is reviewing cases of extremely rare blood clots in a small number of people who've received the jab.
US health officials earlier called for a pause on Johnson & Johnson's single-dose vaccinations, after six people there developed a rare disorder involving blood clots.
All of the people who developed the disorder were women between the ages of 18 and 48. One person died, and another is in a critical condition.
According to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), almost seven million people have been given the Johnson & Johnson vaccine in the US so far."

It is difficult to quantify personal risk when 6 people out of 7 million have be affected. What are the chances of dying from Covid if there were no vaccines?

I will happily be in line for my 2nd AZ vaccine next Tuesday. I had no reaction to the first one, I am just glad that it is not my responsibility to design, manufacture approve and distribute these vaccines. It has been a fantastic human effort.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

Is there any proof that the blood clots are solely down to the vaccine and wouldn't have happened anyway.


----------



## bilbaoman

Pudsey_Bear said:


> Is there any proof that the blood clots are solely down to the vaccine and wouldn't have happened anyway.


It is probably out of the stastistical limits for the number of cases they now have to check each case and determine wether its other medicatiion or disease or genetic or the vaccination that caused the blood clots- I have the gene defect factor v leiden which causes blood clotting but i have had the jab as at my age covid is more likely to kill me than a blood clot


----------



## rayc

Pudsey_Bear said:


> Is there any proof that the blood clots are solely down to the vaccine and wouldn't have happened anyway.


Proof no but there appears to be a casual link. It would appear that AZ and J&J use similar a similar design as opposed to Pfizer which does things differently. It is all beyond me of course but no doubt the best scientific brains are devoting their time to it. 
I have the upmost respect for Prof Jonathan Van-Tam, the deputy chief medical officer for England. He comes over very well on the TV Covid briefings and this article is very interesting. He says "AstraZeneca vaccine's risk v benefit is finely balanced for younger people - as it happened".

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...strazeneca-vaccine-coronavirus-latest-updates

The benefits v the risk is greater the older you are. The chances of contacting Covid and requiring serious medical attention or worse are greater the older you are. The risk of clotting v benefit of the jab in preventing Covid and requiring serious medical attention or worse is different for the younger groups.


----------



## Penquin

rayc said:


> "Johnson & Johnson
> All of the people who developed the disorder were *women between the ages of 18 and 48. * One person died, and another is in a critical condition.
> 
> It is difficult to quantify personal risk when 6 people out of 7 million have be affected. What are the chances of dying from Covid if there were no vaccines?
> 
> I will happily be in line for my 2nd AZ vaccine next Tuesday. I had no reaction to the first one, I am just glad that it is not my responsibility to design, manufacture approve and distribute these vaccines. It has been a fantastic human effort.


Chances of dying without vaccines around have been put at higher than 2%..........

All the people who developed were women between 18 and 48

I wonder if they were on, or had been on the pill ?

That has a known clotting risk, increasing with age and with the time the woman has been taking it. Yet another question that I would like to see an answer to.....

I suspect us elderly blokes are not taking the pill so that should not add to our risk....

Have the vaccine - it is the safest option.


----------



## aldra

My granddaughter was ill with a severe headache which disappeared in 24 hrs after her first vaccine

I’m a bit worried about the second

Sandra


----------



## raynipper

Bit more on vaccines............................ couple of 'blue' words.






Ray.


----------



## patp

Too early for shouty men Ray.


----------



## greygit

patp said:


> Too early for shouty men Ray.


But not too early for the truth or to find out what is happening in the UK.:wink2:


----------



## bilbaoman

I see Denmark will no longer use AZ vaccine at all causing a delay of several weeks to its vaccination programme


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/covid-19-vaccine-trials-cannot-tell-us-if-they-will-save-lives/


----------



## bilbaoman

Pudsey_Bear said:


> https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/covid-19-vaccine-trials-cannot-tell-us-if-they-will-save-lives/


Out of date dated 21/10/20 real life data as proved lives are being saved,The UK as slipped to number 11 in the world for deaths per million while the EU as 7 countries in the top 10 including the top 2


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

I looked for a date too, Specsavers for me again.


----------



## Mrplodd

Had my first jab 18 Feb, second due on 6th May. Phone rang this morning “Hello, vaccine centre here, we have you on the reserve list, we have spare capacity can you come now?” (Took me about 12 minutes to get there ) 

Both of us now fully vaccinated, reeeesult!!


----------



## aldra

Brilliant Ploddy

Life slowly getting back to normal

Take care to shield for a couple of weeks to ensure the antibodies have developed

I’m not sure I’ve got over Covid 12 months later, although my hair is now growing thicker, it fell out in clumps after covid

I don’t want anyone to suffer Covid even it doesn’t kill it certainly affects life for a long time in many people

Thank goodness for the vaccine

Sandra


----------



## Penquin

Very pleased to hear that you too have joined the “two shotter’s”, it used to be a fairly exclusive society, but it is growing in popularity........

Now then, I wonder when we will become “three shotter’s”?, presumably when an update is deemed desirable to cope with eg the Brittany variant.....

(Before you ask, yes the Brittany variant DOES exist already, but it is not reported as “of concern”........).

I bet a lot of people didn’t know that ......


----------



## bilbaoman

Lets hope we do not get a Bilbao strain as every one in Spain knows that anything from Bilbao is the biggest and best we even had to build the Guggenheim museum as Puppy needed a new kennel


----------



## patp

I will join next week Dave.

I have suspected that there are variants about due to the travel restrictions staying in place despite all the pressure the Government are under to lift them.


----------



## greygit

We are having our first one this morning.😣


----------



## dghr272

Boss and I head to Ballymena today for our second Phizer dose.

Terry


----------



## KeithChesterfield

I have heard on the grapevine that Scientists are developing the vaccine in suppository form to be used on those a*seholes who won't take the vaccine in the normal 'jab' formulae ….....


----------



## KeithChesterfield

Second Pfizer jab successfully put into my arm, and SWMBO's arm, and even more of an event worth recalling - we've both had our hairdresser round to see us and coiffure our barnets.

Things don't get much better ........

:wav::wav::wav::wav:


----------



## aldra

So have we Keith

I hate hairdressing salons, Albert hates barbers

I’ve always cut his hair but I’m happy to hand him over

Me I like to wash my own hair have it cut, not even bothered about the blow dry, it won’t get one from me

So I need a good cut that shakes into place

Sandra


----------



## barryd

Ive just ordered a barbers kit. Cordless hair cutters strimmer thing, various heads, scissors, comb etc. Michelle has been hacking my hair for a year now so I thought I would treat her to some proper gear.  Well its a 34 mile round trip to my usual barbers. I reckon she will be an expert in the next five years or so.


----------



## patp

Hairdresser for me too yesterday. 2nd Vacc next week.


----------



## Penquin

Lesley has been doing mine for about 8 years after I was being charged an exorbitant “search fee” each time as well as a cutting fee for each hair - it was described as a “specialist exercise”...... So we tried the diy barbers kit and it looks great.

Mind you when during LD1 she was unable to have her’s done at the hairdesser’s she was far from impressed, but her lady wot does said she has nearly got it back to normal after 11 months.....

Obviously didn’t recognise my latent talent......🤪


----------



## erneboy

barryd said:


> Ive just ordered a barbers kit. Cordless hair cutters strimmer thing, various heads, scissors, comb etc. Michelle has been hacking my hair for a year now so I thought I would treat her to some proper gear.  Well its a 34 mile round trip to my usual barbers. I reckon she will be an expert in the next five years or so.


Been doing my own for over a year now using a machine and various length combs. Apart from cutting it a bit short the first time I can see that my hair looks perfectly fine.

My hair has always been long, mainly because I can't be bothered going to the hairdresser/barber.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

It must be 40 or more years since I went to the barbers, I think I have bought four of five sets of trimmers by now.


----------



## raynipper

Luckily my wife can cut hair. Never trained just picked it up. But I do hang onto my curly locks until the warmer weather as she will shear me almost clean just as we get frosts.

Ray.


----------



## greygit

Anyone can cut hair but it’s how well that counts.
We are lucky as we have a hair dresser that travels around our area ever so often and she then sends out a text and we reply if we want her to call.


----------



## jiwawa

I've cut my own for years tho I had started going to the hairdressers when it was too hard on my arms n shoulders. But of course I've had no choice this last year.


----------



## greygit

I had a pony tail for years (figures) as it was just a case of gathering it all behind and trapping it all in a band of some sort. Then I got fed up with washing and drying that much hair so I joined the conventional gentlemen (as if) and had it all cut off. There was a bonus looking conventional in that we never got the motorhome searched at customs anymore. :grin2::grin2:


----------



## raynipper

The two friends we had with pony tails were rather overbearing and dominant. Didn't seem to change much after being cut off.

Ray.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

Well there is that old one about what do you find if you lift up a ponies tail.


----------



## raynipper

Oooowww Kev. Not nice. Ha ha ha.

Ray.


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

I didn't make it up though.


----------



## Mrplodd

raynipper said:


> Oooowww Kev. Not nice. Ha ha ha.
> 
> Ray.


But not too far from the truth!

Men of a certain age with pony tails look even dafter than men if a similar age wearing fottball shirts to disguise their belly's :wink2: Or sandals with black (or any colour) socks. I could go on.


----------



## greygit

Pudsey_Bear said:


> Well there is that old one about what do you find if you lift up a ponies tail.


 Is that what you get up to when doing your ablutions in the woods? :wink2:


----------



## patp

Jean, how on earth do you cut your own hair?


----------



## Pat-H

I cut my own hair. No3 clippers. Easy.


----------



## erneboy

I use 10s and 12s.


----------



## aldra

I’m trying to fathom out how using the long teeth comb on the trimmer cuts hair longer

If I was sure Id trim shadows coat and save myself £49 having him clipped

Scared he might end up like the specksavers dog or a hairless hound 

Sandra


----------



## bilbaoman

We are in lockdown again in northern Spain new rules you can sit in a bar at breakfast and lunch time but have to sit outside at all other times maybe the virus does not attack you at these times


----------



## jiwawa

patp said:


> Jean, how on earth do you cut your own hair?


With good hairdressing scissors and thinning scissors. And some knowledge of how to hold your hair for cuttso it gives a layered look rather than a straight edge. With the thinners I just ram the open shears into my hair n chop as I move to the ends. Seems to work! 


aldra said:


> I'm trying to fathom out how using the long teeth comb on the trimmer cuts hair longer
> 
> Sandra


It's really that the longer teeth allow a deeper depth between skull and cutters. I used to cut hubby's hair too!


----------



## Penquin

AFAIK the numbers (1 - 10) refer to the clearance measured in mm.....

So a grade 1 = maximum of 1mm between head and blades and so on....

I have an 11 in the winter and a 7 in the summer...

(And an overall polish for the rest - Boot’s do a great head and scalp spray factor 30 or 50 to protect my solar panel...... ), very useful here I can tell you.....


----------



## aldra

So the longer teeth allow closer cut?

I think I’d better pay the £49

Sandra


----------



## Pat-H

aldra said:


> So the longer teeth allow closer cut?
> 
> I think I'd better pay the £49
> 
> Sandra


No the shorter the teet the shorter the cut.
I have a No. 4 in the winter No. 3 in summer


----------



## bilbaoman

I see profesor Macron strikes again only 50 people came forward for vaccination in Nice leaving 3950 doses of AZ vaccine unused


----------



## raynipper

How is that Macrons fault Bill.?

Ray.


----------



## KeithChesterfield

_


raynipper said:



How is that Macrons fault Bill.?

Ray.

Click to expand...

_This didn't help -

*(Feb 2021) French President Emmanual Macron said the AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccine appeared to be "quasi-ineffective" on people older than 65 - just hours before the EU's drugs regulator approved it for use on all adults.*


----------



## raynipper

I think he might have learnt his lesson now Keith. Jabs are getting faster.

Ray.


----------



## bilbaoman

raynipper said:


> I think he might have learnt his lesson now Keith. Jabs are getting faster.
> 
> Ray.


Frances vaccination roll out is poor even by EU standards they are way behind Germany Italy and Spain


----------



## JanHank

:sunny: My dermatologist offered me the vaccine when she gets it in a weeks time, I am first on the list she said and as I saw the list I can confirm I was the only one.:grin2:


----------



## bilbaoman

JanHank said:


> :sunny: My dermatologist offered me the vaccine when she gets it in a weeks time, I am first on the list she said and as I saw the list I can confirm I was the only one.:grin2:


I hope you checked she that you you will be getting German made not the surplus inferior foriegn vaccine


----------



## JanHank

bilbaoman said:


> I hope you checked she that you you will be getting German made not the surplus inferior foriegn vaccine


You´d better tell me what they are 0


----------



## bilbaoman

Wife as her first dose on the 28 April my second 2May her second 18 May so should be able to travel early June if allowed


----------



## Pudsey_Bear

We get ours in 10 and 17 days respectively.


----------



## patp

What is your dermatologist doing with vaccines, Jan?


----------



## Penquin

patp said:


> What is your dermatologist doing with vaccines, Jan?


Hopefully injecting people......

Vets, volunteers, nursing assistants, it makes no difference, giving an injection is certainly not rocket science or a very skilled job. With these vaccines the preparation before the actual injection Timon is much more critical and requires very careful skill.


----------



## patp

But this dermatologist, according to Jan, only has one person on her list. Just seems a bit strange. If he/she is volunteering to inject then surely they would have a whole list of people?


----------



## Mrplodd

I am doing my second stint providing a transport service for a nurse to go around the housebound of the town to give them their second injection.

Amazing how many of these "housebound" have a car (or more) parked on their driveways. Even if they don't drive clearly _someone_ in the house does, so they could easily get to a vaccination hub rather than expect someone to come to them couldn't they ?


----------



## patp

Oh yes, Andy. My mother would have been one of those "entitled" people. She saw the welfare state as her personal servant to minister to her every need. She didn't actually drive but she had plenty of people who would ferry her to appointments etc but thought the welfare state should do it. She thought she should get disability benefits because she was partially sighted and old. She was perfectly capable of looking after herself but thought that the welfare state would make life easier for her. Lots like her about.


----------



## aldra

I think you will find that many people who have been shielding from Covid are afraid to leave their house Ploddy

I guess it becomes a habit to shield and the outside world is a bit scary

Good for you for bringing the vaccine to them

Sandra


----------



## Mrplodd

On a "good" day "my" nurse reckons she can do about 28 home visit jabs if she has a driver (me) Think how many _*more*_ could be vaccinated if she was able to remain at the hub injecting people who come to her. Multiply that across the country and it would make a huge difference to the speed of everyone getting done. 
My sister is another "benefit entitlement" expert. Her husband is even worse, he is just an air thief, but knows "his rights and entitlements" They get sod all help from me!


----------



## Mrplodd

aldra said:


> I think you will find that many people who have been shielding from Covid are afraid to leave their house Ploddy
> 
> I guess it becomes a habit to shield and the outside world is a bit scary
> 
> Good for you for bringing the vaccine to them
> 
> Sandra


All of those in my area who are shielding have already had their second doses over the last few weeks. (I did ask) They have now moved on to the "housebound"


----------



## aldra

We’re they all benefit entitlements Ploddy

Or just frightened people ?

I was really sick with Covid but it didn’t make me afraid, after all I survived it

But then again I had Albert who would drive me anywhere and I trust his decision

Not everyone has that

But it seems they had you

Sandra


----------



## Mrplodd

aldra said:


> We're they all benefit entitlements Ploddy
> 
> Sandra


I have no idea Sandra.


----------



## aldra

Give over you big softy

Your ferrying the nurse and ensuring people get the vaccine

Well done you

Sandra


----------



## JanHank

patp said:


> But this dermatologist, according to Jan, only has one person on her list. Just seems a bit strange. If he/she is volunteering to inject then surely they would have a whole list of people?


You misunderstand Pat, she had obviously only just been told and I was there thats why she said and I knew I was first on the list, I was also her last patient so nobody else will be added until tomorrow. Why question it anyway, I´m just pleased I was there at the right time.


----------



## rayc

Good news from the BBC. They are reporting "Vaccine is working in real world - Sage scientist". 
"Some 74,000 people were admitted to UK hospitals with the virus in recent months, but only 32 who had had the vaccine, according to official data."

Prof Calum Semple, of the University of Liverpool, says researchers looked "very carefully" at the hospital records of these 74,000 people and worked out how many had been admitted after vaccination started - 43,000.
They then identified within that number just under 2,000 people that had received the vaccine, and examined how many days there were between receiving the vaccine and the onset of their symptoms.
"Most people admitted had caught their infection within a week on either side of vaccination and then there was a really sharp drop off in numbers, so that, after three weeks after being vaccinated, we could only count 32 people out of the 2,000 that had been vaccinated," he says.
Prof Semple stresses this is a "tiny number" - less than 2% - and says "that's just after the first vaccine and that's in the elderly population."

My wife and I had our second AZ vaccine yesterday. It is fantastically well organised. Our centre is run at a local sports and social club with great organised parking and booking in. Our first doses 12 weeks ago were given by RN medics this time it was staff and doctors from a number of local practices.


----------



## jiwawa

That is indeed fantastic news Ray!


----------



## aldra

It’s amazing

Britain has really turned up trumps

Brexit not withstanding 

Sandra


----------



## Penquin

aldra said:


> It's amazing
> 
> Britain has really turned up trumps
> 
> Brexit not withstanding
> 
> Sandra


IMO the NHS has really turned up trumps as they have organised the vaccination programme

BUT

They could not have done that without a plentiful, timely supply of vaccine doses and people to administer the vaccine including car parking attendants etc., the supply came about because of excellent advanced confidence and orders to all developers, that came from the Government so they are due praise for those actions.

Sadly, the elements that the Government ALONE have masterminded have apparently been expensive flops eg Test and Trace and of course, The App.

Here we have had the AntiCovid App since last summer, it has been extended and improved to allow the generation of Attestation forms, digitally, as a backup to restrictions on movement. Scotland has also had restrictions on moving outside Council Area and Wales has had distance restrictions too. Perhaps that would have been a beneficial piece of evidence for England ?

The UK does seem to have thrown a lot of money in directions that have not proved beneficial; the App., T&T, PPE supplies, Volunteers for the NHS (not used), Nightingale Hospitals without any clue about staffing requirements or supplies.

So, yes, praise in some places, but not universal.


----------



## aldra

Yes it’s down to the local people and NHS 

Still a fantastic result

Well done Britain 

Sandra


----------



## bilbaoman

I see that the excess death rate is now at minus 18% at the start of the vaccine roll out it was plus 47 % and i think the track and trace is starting to work since they have put boots on the ground the couple that live opposite my son had 3 visits while isolating one from the police and two from the local council


----------



## erneboy

bilbaoman said:


> I see that the excess death rate is now at minus 18% at the start of the vaccine roll out it was plus 47 % and i think the track and trace is starting to work since they have put boots on the ground the couple that live opposite my son had 3 visits while isolating one from the police and two from the local council


Perhaps the vulnerable died a while ago and weren't available to oblige now?


----------



## bilbaoman

erneboy said:


> Perhaps the vulnerable died a while ago and weren't available to oblige now?


No no flu this year due to covid rules it will increase later due to people not getting treatment for other illness due to covid. all it means deaths from covid is not a problem at the moment due to the vaccine roll out and the success of giving the first dose to as many as possible unlike many countries that stuck to the 3 to 4 weeks between doses


----------



## bilbaoman

JanHank said:


> :sunny: My dermatologist offered me the vaccine when she gets it in a weeks time, I am first on the list she said and as I saw the list I can confirm I was the only one.:grin2:


As you live close to Poland watch out you do not get a fake jab Pfzer have confirmed a batch of fake doses found in Poland contain anti wrinkle treatment


----------



## JanHank

bilbaoman said:


> As you live close to Poland watch out you do not get a fake jab Pfzer have confirmed a batch of fake doses found in Poland contain anti wrinkle treatment


Does it affect the whole of the body?>


----------



## bilbaoman

You will have to ask the pilot


----------



## raynipper

I like this from Fruits................. Ray.


----------



## patp

Weren't the army involved in rolling out the vaccine?


----------



## bilbaoman

patp said:


> Weren't the army involved in rolling out the vaccine?


Yes all the logistics was controlled by the army logistics corp with input from the nhs the nhs organised the staffing and the volenteers at the vaccination centres and invited the different groups as defined by the vaccine panel the vaccines were ordered by central goverment


----------



## aldra

It’s possible variants may require a booster

But then again we have a flu jab every year

So far so good

Not so good though in other countries which is definitely a worry

We need that vaccine distributed 

Sandra


----------



## bilbaoman

Here in the Basque country the vaccine rollout around Bilbao is now being centred at the Bilbao Exhibition centre in the town i live we had 3 vaccine centres one in the park behind my house it as only been in use for 5 days since it was opened 5 weeks ago so all 3 are being closed i am lucky i will get my second dose on the last day the reason for closure is vaccine shortage the EU is not supplying Spain with enough vaccine to sustain the planned rollout


----------



## patp

Chris had his photo taken as the recipient of dose number 25,000 at our local vaccination hub!


----------



## JanHank

patp said:


> Chris had his photo taken as the recipient of dose number 25,000 at our local vaccination hub!


Will he be famous, picture in the newspaper, on telly and on the internet?:laugh:


----------



## patp

bilbaoman said:


> Here in the Basque country the vaccine rollout around Bilbao is now being centred at the Bilbao Exhibition centre in the town i live we had 3 vaccine centres one in the park behind my house it as only been in use for 5 days since it was opened 5 weeks ago so all 3 are being closed i am lucky i will get my second dose on the last day the reason for closure is vaccine shortage the EU is not supplying Spain with enough vaccine to sustain the planned rollout


That is sad for all those waiting for their jabs  Thank goodness you just crept under the barrier. So glad we are able to be fully covered. I think a little celebration might be in order tonight


----------



## patp

Doubt it Jan  I think they said something about it being sent to the GP surgery for them to display on their website. Given that I have made a complaint about my treatment by them I am not holding my breath.


----------



## bilbaoman

I see that the ones of us living in the EU are now 15 times more likely to die of covid than people living in the UK the ones at most risk are the ones living in Poland who are 38 times more likely to die than someone in the in the UK


----------



## JanHank

I don´t follow the news, prevents an awful lot of worry :grin2:


----------



## erneboy

Oh well, what comes around etc. You'll remember that it was the reverse at this time last year as The Clown and his team of half wits tried to ignore the virus and then claimed the UK was well prepared and so on. 

Credit to those who delivered the vaccine and the vaccinations for the situation the UK is in now.


----------



## bilbaoman

The problem is there as not been an effective vaccine rollout there is an estimated 20million doses in storage and the insistance of sticking to 3 weeks between doses therefore slowing the first doses which its been proved you will not die from covid if you have had your 1 dose more than 3 weeks ago.Also inefective lock down policy here bars and restaurants are still open the rule of 4 people is ignored today i saw 10 people in a lift to the metro the limit is 2 unless the same family then its 4


----------



## aldra

bilbaoman said:


> I see that the ones of us living in the EU are now 15 times more likely to die of covid than people living in the UK the ones at most risk are the ones living in Poland who are 38 times more likely to die than someone in the in the UK


Well there you go

But now we need to concentrate on India

Get oxygen and vaccinations there

It's a world wide epidemic

This world needs to pull together to beat it

My heart goes out to those people who are dying without oxygen

Sandra


----------



## bilbaoman

I understand both the EU and Uk are sending medical supplies even Pakistan as sent some even though it as problems with the virus my daughter is in Lahore today and they have not been let out of the hotel.


----------



## patp

So sad for India and its people. Their culture is such a respecter of the elderly too.


----------



## JanHank

A phone call this morning to go for my first Pfizer jab tomorrow at 1.30. 

I have to go this afternoon to collect the form that is usually completed when there, but as I will need time to understand it (I will translate it with google docs), I will collect it today.

So as they say here `es get los´ it starts.:smile2:


----------



## aldra

Price of oxygen 90 times higher than before Covid in India

Is the oxygen we are sending the same?

We really need each of us to remember this is a world wide pandemic

No one is safe till we all are safe

And everyone’s safety is so so important wherever they live

Sandra


----------



## Penquin

From what I have heard, the U.K. is sending oxygen concentrators which increase the amount of oxygen in the air to be breathed to around 70% O2. That would aid those struggling to maintain a reasonable oxygen saturation level.

The most efficient way of transporting oxygen as a pure substance, would be using liquid oxygen under pressure and cooling, useless fact; 16g of liquid oxygen will vapourise into 22.4litres of gaseous oxygen enough for about 90 seconds of pure oxygen breathing.....

But, every “Western” country needs to be sending help, the USA, Germany and the U.K. are but are others ? Australia is usually very quick to send help.

Have a thought too for those in Brazil, where anaesthetics for the insertion of airways have run out and it is being done while the patient is still conscious. The thought of that is horrendous - we all know the feeling of panic when “something goes down the wrong way” and we cough and splutter. Imagine the pain of having an airway inserted.......

As Sandra says, until every country overcomes the virus, no country can rest on its laurels.....


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## claypigeon

Hi had my second jab today


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## JanHank

claypigeon said:


> Hi had my second jab today


So this time my intervention has worked :grin2::angel:


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## bilbaoman

Wifes first tomorrow maybe wont need second as they have started using Janssen 1 dose this week i get my second Pfizer on sunday so we are ready to travel when we are allowed


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## claypigeon

Yes Jan it certainly did thank you. x


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## JanHank

I’ve been done with biotech, next one in four weeks when they will phone to tell me when. 
I was told about the not feeling well maybe and if it lasts for more than 3 days see my GP. I had to sit for 15 mins before leaving.

Has anyone been told they shouldn’t drink alcohol for 14 days afterwards, Heike just came up with that one and I said I’ve never heard of it, where did you get that from, off the internet, no body action for 3 days no alcohol for 4 weeks.


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## bilbaoman

JanHank said:


> I've been done with biotech, next one in four weeks when they will phone to tell me when.
> I was told about the not feeling well maybe and if it lasts for more than 3 days see my GP. I had to sit for 15 mins before leaving.
> 
> Has anyone been told they shouldn't drink alcohol for 14 days afterwards, Heike just came up with that one and I said I've never heard of it, where did you get that from, off the internet, no body action for 3 days no alcohol for 4 weeks.


Alcohol at normal levals OK heavy drinking could prevent inmune system working correctly thus reducing the effectiveness of the vaccine:smile2::smile2::smile2:


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## bilbaoman

Wife went this morning they have runout of Janssen so was given Pfizer and as to return in 3 weeks for the second dose same place same time which makes it easy for us to remember so we will be away in the motorhome early june if the rules allow


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## jiwawa

bilbaoman said:


> Alcohol at normal levals OK heavy drinking could prevent inmune system working correctly thus reducing the effectiveness of the vaccine/images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_smile.png/images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_smile.png/images/MotorhomeFacts_2014/smilies/tango_face_smile.png


I'd heard no alcohol for about 3 weeks giving your immune system the best chance to build up its defences.


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## patp

No alcohol? Whoops!


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## JanHank

I believe they are taking about more than the recommended amount not a glass with a meal.


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## bilbaoman

Moderate alcohol consumption can reduce heart disease and prevent blood clots but any alcohoi consumption can be a condtributing cause in cancer in some people so the choice is yours


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## JanHank

bilbaoman said:


> Moderate alcohol consumption can reduce heart disease and prevent blood clots but any alcohoi consumption can be a condtributing cause in cancer in some people so the choice is yours


That might be enough for some people to want to give up living, *NO ALCOHOL * can´t be done. I can take it or leave it, mostly left. very little has passed my lips this year and I don´t feel any better or worse for it.


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## patp

I wish it was just a glass with a meal. We get very stressed with our bungalow build and leaking bore holes and bad weather. I think the stress does more harm than the alcohol (at least that is my story).


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## aldra

Yep I’ve depended on alcohol to relieve my back pain these last weeks

Come 6pm it’s a life savour

Just easing the tension and the pain of the day is priceless

Possibly worth shortening a few years of your life

I certainly wouldn’t want to extend the pain for years, it’s exhausting 

And I wear a morphine patch

Sandra


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## JanHank

I didn’t drink any alcohol, I haven’t had any after effects, I will continue my life as I have for the past year until it’s safe to do otherwise which won’t be for a while yet we’re told. I just hope I’ll live long enough to enjoy what we knew as a normal life again.


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## GMJ

There doesn't seem to be any evidence of ill effects of drinking alcohol on anti bodies according to the interweb. The NHS site lists this under the Pfizer jab...

_*Some news and social media have reported you should abstain from alcohol to boost your immune response
to the vaccine. This is selective reporting from a statement from DrinkAware (a UK alcohol education charity).
a
Their detailed recommendations:
• Get vaccinated if you are offered a COVID-19 vaccine, regardless of whether you ever drink any
alcohol or not.
• Heavy drinkers have a higher risk of becoming seriously ill with COVID-19 therefore please keep your
appointment for vaccination if you are offered one
• There is no direct evidence that heavy or social drinking will affect your body's response to the
COVID-19 vaccine
• It is possible, but not proven, that drinking alcohol, especially regular heavy drinking, can reduce your
body's response to some vaccines. Therefore it is prudent for you not to drink any alcohol for a few
days before, and for at least two weeks after, you've been vaccinated.
Summary:
• Receiving your COVID-19 vaccine without delay is important (regardless of whether you drink or not)
• You may like to reduce your alcohol consumption as this is generally good for your health and there is
limited evidence that it might improve your body's response to the vaccine.*_

Anyway, an hangover might take your attention away from your sore arm


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## JanHank

I don´t have a sore arm, it feels just the same as after any injection, if I touch the spot its like touching a bruise, if I don´t touch it I feel nothing.


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## patp

I had no symptoms with the first but some symptoms with the second. Apparently it can happen the other way around, too.


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## GMJ

Mrs GMJ was rough for 3 or so days after the first and 2 days after the second. It seemed to mirror some of her MS symptoms tbh although she did also have a headache too. 

I had no reaction to my first jab except for a sore arm which I put down to it just being a needle however it lasted for a few days after, so was probably a slight reaction to the jab contents.

My brother and his partner in their mid 60's reported slight cold like symptoms. His son in his late 30's was rough with it for a couple of days.

It seems to have no rhyme nor reason tbh.

Either way its a great deal better than the alternative. That I can say with big certainty!


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## Penquin

No problems for either of us for either (Pfizer) dose except MrsW had a slightly sore arm when she lay on it that night.

My son, in the U.K. was in bed for 2 days feeling really rough, he has previously had cancer and massive chemotherapy, whether there is any link there I do not know - others may like to add their personal possible links.


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## aldra

I think it depends on the immune reaction to the virus

Strong or weak will produce symptoms 

My granddaughter was in bed poorly for a few days and had bad headache, I felt flu like symptoms and a sore arm for a few days as did Albert 

Strong immune response as we know will cause inflammatory reaction which has affect on the body

Weak immune response I guess requires time to gather forces together to fight the invasion

I don’t know just hazarding a guess

It may also depend on previous exposure to the virus

Sandra

Sandra


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## bilbaoman

There appears that one part of the Track and Trace that works my daughter works for an airline if a passenger comming to the UK tests positive the NHS contact the airline who supply details of the crew the NHS then contact the crew members who have come into contact they then have to isolate intill they have passed a covid test this as happened to my daughter twice she also has to self test twice a week and on many flights as to pass a full test before the flight


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## Glandwr

bilbaoman said:


> There appears that one part of the Track and Trace that works my daughter works for an airline if a passenger comming to the UK tests positive the NHS contact the airline who supply details of the crew the NHS then contact the crew members who have come into contact they then have to isolate intill they have passed a covid test this as happened to my daughter twice she also has to self test twice a week and on many flights as to pass a full test before the flight


Well you would expect something for £37BILLION wouldn't you:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## bilbaoman

I see VDL at a press conference yesterday congratulated herself that the covid vaccine rollout was on track and the EU had given out the third most doses in the world only beaten by China and the USA while these figures are correct she forgot to mention that in % terms of the population the EU is ninth the only EU country in the top 5 is Hungary the top country is Israel on 62% the only other country above 50% is the UK the EU is on 20%( I have ignored Malta as the population is so small)


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## Glandwr

Good to see Wales leading the field among the home nations. 5th out of world top 20 for vaccinations as of 27th April. England appears to be 9th (7% behind). In reality though, in the first world, the difference between the first and last country reaching herd immunity is likely to be only measured in weeks. Tragic for some yes but something to take jingoistic pride in i don't think so.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55855220


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## GMJ

I lost 2 stone in January this year alone when I was riddled with covid. I'm pleased to say that I have carried on losing the weight in a controlled manner since and now its up to 3 stone 6 pound.

My starting weight was 17st 3lb and am now 13st 11lb. I'm determined to keep it off as well although all my clothes look a little to loose now


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## dghr272

GMJ said:


> I lost 2 stone in January this year alone when I was riddled with covid. I'm pleased to say that I have carried on losing the weight in a controlled manner since and now its up to 3 stone 6 pound.
> 
> My starting weight was 17st 3lb and am now 13st 11lb. I'm determined to keep it off as well although all my clothes look a little to loose now


Yes I understand the clothes issue my 3st loss has resulted in me owning many trousers that look the height of fashion (to some) with them hanging half off my @ss. :grin2:

Terry


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## GMJ

dghr272 said:


> Yes I understand the clothes issue my 3st loss has resulted in me owning many trousers that look the height of fashion (to some) with them hanging half off my @ss. :grin2:
> 
> Terry


I nearly dribbled coffee there Terry









I am in need of another hole in my belt I must admit. All my clothes (tops) are either XXL or XL which is fine as I like loose clothing but they are hanging a bit. I'm more than happy now I'm back in 36" waist jeans but they do need a belt!


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## dghr272

GMJ said:


> I nearly dribbled coffee there Terry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am in need of another hole in my belt I must admit. All my clothes (tops) are either XXL or XL which is fine as I like loose clothing but they are hanging a bit. I'm more than happy now I'm back in 36" waist jeans but they do need a belt!


We better stop now, Barry will be getting p1ssed at all this weight loss chat:surprise:

Terry


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## Penquin

I bought a hole puncher for just that problem.......

Oh that I will need to use it more often.....


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## JanHank

Never mind about the clothes you can buy more that will fit, what about all the spare skin, what are you doing with that?:frown2:

I´m still fine by the way, no delayed after effects.


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## erneboy

bilbaoman said:


> I see VDL at a press conference yesterday congratulated herself that the covid vaccine rollout was on track and the EU had given out the third most doses in the world only beaten by China and the USA while these figures are correct she forgot to mention that in % terms of the population the EU is ninth the only EU country in the top 5 is Hungary the top country is Israel on 62% the only other country above 50% is the UK the EU is on 20%( I have ignored Malta as the population is so small)


It does rather look as though it's been turned into a competition. That seems sad to me. Surely, just in the interests of humanity, it should have been a joint effort rather than an endless opportunity to try to score political points.

It doesn't matter who started it or why it has happened. It is a shameful indictment of those who continue to do it. The solution is just to stop keeping score as a point of national honour and to use the scores instead to decide where help is needed and to send it there.

I speak as someone who has not yet been vaccinated. I'm in no rush and am not greatly at risk isolated here at home. I would rather see people who are at risk vaccinated ahead of me, if it worked that way.


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## JanHank

*A question.*

Heike has some funny ideas at times, being German has something to do with it :grin2:
She tells me I shouldn't be too busy and give the vaccine time to work is there any truth in it?

I found this and it´s probably what she has read somewhere, but as I don´t do any real physical exercise other than walking and the normal housework exercise it doesn't apply I am sure.

_If you're feeling fine, however, you can try physical activity in the day or two afterward as long as you start slowly and pay attention to your body. You might not have immediately felt any side effects, but once you start exerting yourself, you might find you tire more quickly or easily in the first few days after vaccination. Some physicians advise against any exercise in the first 24 hours after the vaccine, but that's based more on a "take it easy and see how it goes" approach rather than any data showing that exercise could harm you or the vaccine response.
_


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## GMJ

JanHank said:


> Never mind about the clothes you can buy more that will fit, what about all the spare skin, what are you doing with that?:frown2:


Not a problem for me Jan. I have shrunk uniformly :grin2:


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## patp

I didn't know you had Covid Graham? Did I miss something? How are you feeling now?


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## JanHank

patp said:


> I didn't know you had Covid Graham? Did I miss something? How are you feeling now?


He was very ill in January Pat, reporting in on Owners and if he missed a day we all got very worried. His wife also had it, but only mildly thank goodness, she doesn't need any further illness.


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## GMJ

patp said:


> I didn't know you had Covid Graham? Did I miss something? How are you feeling now?


As Jan says it was very touch and go at one stage as I struggled to breathe. I was on the verge of going into hospital but pulled through. 2 of my stones lost happened in January alone. It was the worst I have ever felt times 1000!

I had body aches like myalgia; headaches that took 2 types of horse pills to hit; night sweats and day sweats; shivers; salty taste in my mouth all the time; no appetite...so a full house basically :grin2:

I used to sit in our living room with a vest, rugby jersey, thick jumper and a blanket on with the log burner on full chat...and I'd still be shivering! Half hour later I would be stripping off as I was sweating!

Mornings became a binary choice between having a shower or brushing my teeth as I had no energy to do both. The fatigue gave me some indication of what my wife's life is like with MS tbh. Just walking to the toilet to have a pee left me exhausted.

All over now but I urge everyone to do what they can to avoid this insipid illness and for God's sake get both your jabs.

I thought I was going to die.


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## patp

Blimey, Graham. How awful for you and how frightening! Breath is life and to not be able to breathe is the worst feeling in the world. And poor Mrs GMJ to be so poorly herself and watch you and then get it. It makes me feel humble.
I watched a program I had recorded, last night, about the hospitals coping with Covid. It followed a couple of doctors and a couple of patients through their experiences. So truly terrible.


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## aldra

Exactly Graham

I was so sick and I thought I was going to die

Couldn’t breathe but last March it seemed as though no one made it through the hospital and I was more afraid of dying alone than dying at home

Only just coming through long Covid, lost a lot of weight but unfortunately regained it, my hair fell out as though I’d been on chemo , and I was breathless for months and I haven’t yet managed the extreme tiredness

I’m struggling with inflammatory arthritis and I’m uneasy about going back on immunosuppressants but the stiffness and swollen joints means I really need to

I really feel for your wife, I don’t know until I get up in the morning what part of me won’t work, on a good day I over do it which results in several poor days

But Covid it wiped me out

Definately all should get the vaccination, it’s a nasty disease 

Sandra


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## GMJ

Thanks Pat.

We were very fortunate that Mrs GMJ only developed heavy cold type symptoms for 4 days or so. I dread to think what would have happened had she got worse with her MS and asthma. 

Our son kindly gave it to us when he came down for Xmas Day. He tested positive and only had a mild cold for a few days. Luckily my Father in Law (who also came for Xmas Day and is 82!) didn't develop it at all. How arbitrary is that?

It was a real wake up call for me tbh and since then I have made a number of lifestyle changes for the better, hence the weight loss this year which has been done through portion control and reduced beer intake along with more exercise: all things I can sustain. I'm feeling great now.


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