# Desperately need help - Leisure Batteries & Solar Panels



## 115255 (Aug 7, 2008)

Hello all,

*I desperately need some help --*

I recently acquired a static caravan on a site in the North-West next door to my partner's fathers static. It is getting delivered tomorrow (Fri 8th).

There are no electrics on this site so ideally I would like everything to be self sufficient. I do not want a petrol generator because they are too expensive to purchase and then run. I don't know much about anything like this so I have been doing a lot of research and so far only acquired an Inverter. I need a Leisure battery, 60w (minimum) solar panel kit and a regulator/trickle charger.

So far the cheapest 60w Solar panel kit I have found is £400 from Maplin. I can't afford this much at the moment because I desperately need 2x 110ah leisure batteries too so I have some power when it comes. This is where I need your help:

I don't really want a wet one because I would like it to be maintenance free. So far my shortlist is the following (Anything above 110Ah I would only need 1 battery) -

PLATINUM 110Ah from Local Supplier, £75each, 2 Years Guarantee
PLATINUM 135Ah from Local Supplier, £99.95, 2 Years Guarantee

L110 Premium NUMAX Deep Cycle Leisure Battery 12V 110Ah, tayna.co.uk, £75 + £11p&p = £86 ea, 2 Years Guarantee

ELECSOL 110 Carbon Fibre Battery, Local Supplier, £104, 5 Years GT
ELECSOL 125 Carbon Fibre Battery, Local Supplier, £123, 5 Years GT
ELECSOL 220 Carbon Fibre Battery, Local Supplier, £225, 5 Years GT
ELECSOL 270 Carbon Fibre Battery, Local Supplier, £295, 5 Years GT

Since I can't afford a Solar Panel Kit yet I was thinking of buying a Leisure Battery Charger and have found the 'The Ring SmartCharge 8' which will charge all types of sealed lead-acid batteries. This is £60 from Maplin.

Basically I need to know info regarding Platinum vs. Numax vs. Elecsol.

The Platinum is appealing simply because it is cheapest, bought local, and Guarantee is with the Shop, but I don't know if they are built to last.

The Numax is in the Caravan section on the Tanya website and has good reviews.

I think my favoured battery is 1x Elecsol 220Ah or 2x Elecsol 125Ah. They have a 5 year Guarantee (with the manufacturer), but this is no substitute for performance which I don't know anything about. Also, I have read somewhere that the 5 year guarantee isn't worth the paper it is written on. I have read on the internet that Elecols are "Wet" batteries that need topping up with distilled water, which I don't know anything about but my local shop assured me that it is sealed and doesn't need topping up and are completely maintenance free. Also, this will give over 1000 deep discharges cycles which is very attractive.

*Questions:*

1. Ideally I would rather not waste money on a charger and buy Solar panel Kit dtraight away. Are there any decent 60W> Solar Panel Kits on the market less than £400?
2. Which Leisure Battery would you recommend?
3. Do all Elecsols need topping up with water?
4. For the price of 1x 220Ah Elecsol Battery I could buy 3x 110Ah Platinum Batteries but I don't know if this would be a wise investment?
5. Will 'The Ring SmartCharge 8' charge all above batteries? Or would it be better buying an Elecsol battery Charger?

THANKS LOADS FOR YOUR TIME AND HELP!

Dane


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

My first thoughts are that with a static you can afford the space and weight isn't an issue so cheap lead acids probably the best bet. 

Then I thought a Static with no electricity how did they get planning permission for that? 

With solar PV modules then also the cheaper the better as you will have plenty of room and can afford the space to buy low efficiency ones if you are on a tight budget. You need a specialist supplier rather than an electronic hobby showroom or motorhome supplier I am told that they can be got for around £2 per Watt but £4 a watt seems the norm.

Although I am a 'solar person' I would recommend instead you use a small generator to 'cycle charge' your batteries ie generator put on for a short time per day to charge your batteries and use the spare power to do anything else that needs 240V at the same time. This advice given as a short term low cost startup option.


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## 107558 (Oct 10, 2007)

Think of being "self sufficient" as a balancing act. On one side you have your power consumption of the other your "power generating capacity". The more your consumption the high the generating capacity required the higher the installation cost.

Before you start spending money on batteries, Solar Panels (PV) and the like you need to make a list of what you need to power and how many Watts these items will require. At that point you can then decide which method is the most cost effective.

If you can post a list of the sort of things you will be running we can then give you some idea as to A) whether you can be self sufficient and B) what is likely to be the most cost effective method.


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## 115255 (Aug 7, 2008)

Thanks for the prompt responses. I don’t really want to purchase something and then need to upgrade in a few months time. I would rather get it right first time. Also I would rather stay away from generators. Would a solar panel kit be suffice on its own or should I buy a mains charger also?

I forgot to mention my inverter is 800w with 1200 peak. I will only really be powering a small TV (15-19”), a freeview box and one 6-8w light at a time. I only really intend to stay in it over weekends. It would be nice to power a camping fridge but I haven’t really looked into that yet. My girlfrieds dad has a gas one. Since I will only be there for mainly 2-3 days at a time I won’t really be needing one, and I’ll use a cooler bag. I have a cordless strimmer and a petrol lawnmower.

Thanks again loads for your help because this is all new to me :?


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## mandyandandy (Oct 1, 2006)

We had a similar dilemma as we had a single 110 battery which didn't quite last a full weekend with 4 of us on a rally with no EHU.

Battery not old enough to need replacing as we thought 2 85's would be better. Friend of ours had a Solar panel fitted by these people and recommended them to us.

http://www.towtal.co.uk/solar-panels.html

We had an 85 fitted and it has been an excellent buy and the cheapest we could find around by a long way. You can stay over night in their compound and get work done in around 3 hours. Will try and find out exact cost and put it on. I think I did post the cost originally but not sure how to find it again.

Mandy


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## 115255 (Aug 7, 2008)

Hello Mandy,

Thanks for your response. I have since spoken to a few people on site and it is very interesting to learn about how they are set up. It is all new to me though so not all is making sense.

Will just be me and my partner also staying in our Carnaby Siesta 23 x 10, 1 bedroom.

We will probably stay up their most weekends now (2 days at a time) and watch a bit of TV, maybe 5-6 hours a night. At the moment my thoughts are swaying towards buying 1x 220Ah Elecsol Sealed battery, unless anyone can recommend otherwise? I will see how I get on with that and may need to buy another at a later date.

I live 7 miles from site so I like the idea keeping one on charge at home and taking the fully charged battery with me each time we go to the camp. That would be really easy.

The other option is buying a solar panel kit. I need to do the maths to find out what will be suitable. A gentleman on site told me yesterday about a German place which he found on eBay to be cheapest where he bought his 1 year ago and had no problems www.soltronik.de/shop. I had a look but it doesn't work out cheap anymore, maybe because of the Euro. Nevertheless, I found other sellers with good rep selling 80W kits for £280. 80W on Maplin is £570. I rang Towtal this morning and they said they are struggling to get any solar panels in stock at the moment but he said a 85W Solar Panel Kit will cost £395 plus postage (around £20) when he gets them in. 60W on Maplin is £400. So eBay looks like the only affordable route - I am always reluctant to buy electronic goods off eBay tho.

My inverter is 800W - 1200W peak. I will then need to buy a trickle charger.

So many decisions, so many options. My caravan is being delivered this afternoon woo hoo!

Thanks for giving me some confidence that it is possible to camp and enjoy some pleasures on 12 volt power.

Any more help out there please respond, is very much appreciated!!!

Dane


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

Hi

If were me I would

1. buy two standard flooded lead acid leisure batteries ( est £40- £45 each from competitive accessory shops) making sure that they do have good carrying handles. Also give some attention to how you will transport them...plastic box fixed down in car boot??

2. buy a Ctek 3600 multi-stage charger for use at home recharging / maintaining the batteries. The high cost of this charger is a good investment.

4. On site I would use the batteries separately... one for essential services and the other for TV and entertainment. When the TV one is finished you still have lights etc.... When either is depleted to 50% you must stop using it or it will be damaged.

5. I would buy a digital voltmeter and learn how to use it to establish the battery condition. Lots of discussion on here a subscription may be good :wink: 

6. If after a weekend or two of testing the two batteries are not enough for you buy a third. (this is not likely assuming you do as you have described ...a little tv and only one light :wink: )

6. After running this set-up for a few weekends I would then decide on the size and viability of purchasing solar panels or some wind power ( Rutland windmill) 

This thread is now in the "Caravan Chat" Forum ...I hope you can find it .... as until you are a subscribed member I cannot send you a PM to inform you of the move :wink:

Best of luck, enjoy your van ...

Mike


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

You keep going on about this inverter - just for a TV.

If it's a modern LCD you may be more efficient if you use a TV power supply.

I suspect an 800/1200W unit ( that could be well over 100A drain if pushed ) might not be efficient at 50W or so of a TV.

Problem B - solar needs sun - oh you knew that  - but sun is not on offer much in UK particularly in the winter.

Have you considered wind ? ( Looks out, dead calm !! ).

You keep rejecting the cheapest and most reliable charging source, petrol generator.

And spending on LED lighting will save a lot of drain.


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## spykal (May 9, 2005)

hilldweller said:


> You keep rejecting the cheapest and most reliable charging source, petrol generator.


Some of us have an inbuilt maybe inane hatred of generators and dare I say it, the folk who use them, well those who use them without understanding how to use them properly and efficiently ... I wonder if danetownsend is one of us. :lol:

I agree with you about the windmill, and the inverter ( a smaller one or use direct 12v supply to LCD TV) ...this summer a windmill would have been a goody.

Mike


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

spykal said:


> Some of us have an inbuilt maybe inane hatred of generators and dare I say it, the folk who use them, Mike


I'm new to this lark and so far not had any bad experiences of generators but I certainly would switch on hatred mode if some t**t left one running near me all night.

A quick boost when everyone is active and making a noise anyway might be OK. A 1KW genny could do a good job on a battery in an hour but would need good monitoring or a proper controller to ensure the battery did not over charge.

I did hear one or two gennies at Lincoln, it's a noise guaranteed to upset the mildest of people.


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## 115255 (Aug 7, 2008)

I don’t meen to keep going on about anything. I mentioned inverter because I want everyone to know my situation ie what I have and what I need. It isn’t a modern TV it is old with a VHS player built in. If that is going to drain my juice I will consider upgrading (when I have saved up some pennies). My girlfriends dad told me we need an inverter so that’s why I bought one. Since I have one I haven’t bothered to research that much into it. Suppose it will be handy if I use it in the future for anything else such as a shower, dehumidifier, charger etc?

What do you meen by 800/1200W unit could be well over 100A drain??

I have began my research into solar panels. I have been told you can buy panels which rely on day light and not sunlight? Solar panels are very much the in thing at the moment. I have never seen a wind solar thingy. How much do these bad boys cost and are they as efficient?

I don’t like generators due to cost and use restrictions plus charging takes a long time from a genset. They are noisy and I don’t like dealing with petrol. I was in a fire accident not long ago. Recently my girlfriends dads generator started a fire (because of the fumes?). I just don’t feel comfortable with one.

Do you meen solar lighting by LED lighting? I have some of them for outside.

The cheapest sealed leisure battery I can find is £75 from a local shop. They do around 300 charges. I believe the Erecsol equivelant does 1000 charges and comes with 5 year guarantee for £30 more. This seems a more wise investment?

As far as the multi-stage charger go, I’m not sure to splash out on one if I am going to buy a solar panel. My girlfriends dad has a Halfords charger which I can borrow in the meantime. If everyone thinks I do need one also then I don’t know whether to buy the Ctek 3600, an Elecsol one (to match the battery) or the SmartCharge 8 I found on Maplin.

Do I need to keep the battery “topped-up”? The Elecsol uns say they can be continuously over discharged or even left in a discharged state permanently with no loss of capacity on recharge. If so how do I do this? I was intending on using it, when everything went off I would know it was dead, then I would charge.

I really don’t want to worry about not using electrics. I would like to be kitted out so I can relax and enjoy so I would like to be adequately equipped. Rather have more than not enough.

I am more confused now than I was before! :? Thanks all for your help so far, which will indefinitely help me make my decision on what I will be spending a lot of money on which I will have for years.

Dane


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

danetownsend said:


> Dane


>> I don't mean to keep going on about anything.

I'll re-phrase that then - you've mentioned the inverter a few times.

>> It isn't a modern TV it is old with a VHS player built in.

No use on batteries. Here is you biggest problem.

>> I have been told you can buy panels which rely on day light and not sunlight?

Sounds like sales spin - they might mean they are more efficient but that will mean lots more money but the bottom line is that it's all sunlight of varying strength. Remember that as the earth tilts in winter ALL light is weaker because it's spread over a bigger area. I think we are down to 50% compared to summer.

>> Do you mean solar lighting by LED lighting?

Sort of, the lamp in little solar lights is an LED ( Light Emitting Diode ) which is much more efficient than a normal bulb. You can buy plug in replacement 12V LED bulbs. My main light is down from about 3 amps to half an amp with more light.

>> I don't like generators due to cost and use restrictions plus charging takes a long time from a genset.

A genny is upwards from 600W and £100, you are looking at solar at 60W and £400. It's up to you to decide if you could run one for an hour a day. You could then get away with a single battery.

I'd say a reasonable quality charger will pay for itself, batteries are not cheap, you want the maximum life out of them.

>> What do you meen by 800/1200W unit could be well over 100A drain??

1200W at 240 volts means 5 amps. 
But 1200W from a 12V battery means 100 amps or more.

So forget the electric shower, kettle, a fully charged battery would not give you a single shower. The numbers are: Shower 3000W so at 12V that means 3000/12=250 amps. Your battery might say 100 amp hours so you might think it could deliver 250 amps for 24 minutes but they don't work like that for massive loads.

You are walking in a minefield, good join you found MHF. You're never going to find the perfect solution on a budget ( wind plus masses of solar and a genny just in case ) but you'll get there.


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## 115255 (Aug 7, 2008)

My caravan was delivered on Friday and we stayed in it Saturday night. Love it. We had plenty of candles and can’t wait to be set up properly, much more safer. Will be so rewarding once it’s done. I don’t want to rush into anything though and make any wrong decisions which will cost me loads of money and I will be stuck with it for several years…

Sounds like I will need to look out for a cheap small LCD TV. I already have a Freeview box I can hook up to it.

I have read via the internet Polycrystalline are the most efficient type of solar panels. I have found one made by Yingli (A Chinese firm) 80W for £270 + £20 postage = £290. This sounds an ok price in comparison with other shops.

I know all light will be down 50% compared to summer so I may need to charge it over winter months. Or the panel may prove suffice. Anyways, my girlfriends mother has a car battery charger which will hopefully do the job for now, until I have saved up more pennies. I haven’t had time to look into this field yet. I found the Smartcharge 8 on Maplin which sounds good. Can anyone recommend any others? Elescol ones are between £80-£90. I don’t really want to spend that much since (if all goes well) I won’t need to use because I have solar.

On another forum someone suggested wind turbines to me. I have never seen one of these in use (apart from a massive at our local Tesco!). Now I am confused even more because I had a look and I can get around 400W for the price of 80W Solar!? But if it isn’t windy (even tho it always is here) I won’t have power! I see in an ideal world I would have both. Every one else on site is solar but I am welcome to change.

I have decided to buy an Elecsol 125Ah battery. I will see how we go then I will most likely buy another one. I have measure dup and can comfortably fit 3 in my wardrobe side by side.

I will have to look into LED lighting. Do you have a link for somewhere or are they readily available in DIY stores or even Tesco etc? At the moment I have energy saving bulbs which are between 8W – 11W. Are these direct replacement bayonet or screw bulbs? I have had a gander on the net and they appear to be between £35 - £60 each!?

I definitely don’t want a generator. They are noisy and will be expensive to run. I understand that they are good for some people but I don’t want one. Although my girlfriends dad is next door and we have access to his 2 generators so they are there for back up if we need them.

My girlfriends dad hooked up my inverter yesterday. I definitely don’t want to use 100 amps when I could be using 5 amps so I will ask him about that. I will plug the TV into the plug in the wall. I think the inverter is hooked up to the electric box in my wardrobe? Tbc….

The shower will be running through my boiler so will be gas. My mistake!! Told you I’m new to all this. Yesterday I bought a whistle kettle for my gas cooker.

So far the cost will be £123 x 2 (2x leisure batteries) + £290 solar panel = £536.

Really happy I found MHF and I am extremely grateful for all your help so far! That is an understatement I am over the moon with info so far. If anyone can add further PLEASE PLEASE REPLY AND HELP A NUMPTY CARAVAN VIRGIN.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

There are many threads on the forum about solar chargers and their use and also about inverters; the point about them is that Ohm's Law shows that for a given power drain there is a direct relationship between voltage and current drained, hence while it may drain 5 amp at 240v (mains voltage is not stated as quite that high any more due to ease of transfer of electricity from Europe it is now 220v + or - 10% ie up to 240!) For 12 volt to supply the same amount of power the current is 240/12 times as great ie 12 x 5 = 60 amp directly from your battery. At that sort of drain from your battery your wires will get VERY hot and could burst into flame - big risk. Of course the battery will not give that current for very long and could be permanently damaged by trying. There are many threads on the forum about looking after your battery and not letting the voltage drop much due to the damage it causes.

Candles are inherantly unsafe, attractive yes but unsafe. You can readily buy an LED lantern that will give bright light economically without draining bateries very fast (LED's are VERY efficient because they don't give out so much heat).

Petrol generators are noisy and are also unsafe in the wrong hands - according to our local Fire and Rescue service they are not allowed to be used in eg fetes or public events due to risk of fire and injury, partiularly when refilling "hot" machines. I would agree with your not being keen to go that route.

Solar generators will give some power in daylight (our MH vehicle battery is kept trickle charged by a small solar cell - this works and gives out current even on dull days.) But they are failry delicate and need careful installation. Wind generators are virtually silent and give good power'cost ratio but they are not so readily available at present - this is changing rapidly, you can even (if really pushed) buy one at B & Q but they cost rather more than you would want!

Consideration of what you actually need should be your first priority - it sounds like replacing your TV would be sensible to one that runs off 12 v - there are many that do for less than £100 new (you could always look at internet auction sites for ideas), with or without VHS or DVD facility.

Don't expect everything to be available at the start - part of the fun is developing what you want when you discover you want/need it - it is easy to spend your money on other people ideas. I have only recently bought a small inverter so I can recharge my laptop after nearly 30 of having a caravan or motorhome and then only because I had to sit in my car for a long while using my laptop and it was cheaper than buying a 12v supply wire for the laptop which I would have preferred!

Good luck, your first £10 would be well spent joining the forum - there is a wealth of experience and wise guidance available once you do so (it is also failry addictive once you are on!).

Enjoy the opportunities you have.


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

danetownsend said:


> My caravan was delivered on Friday


>> Sounds like I will need to look out for a cheap small LCD TV.

They are getting cheaper by the day and usually have freeview built in.

>> I will have to look into LED lighting.

www.ultraLEDs.co.uk
[email protected] << cheaper and give MHF discount

You've got to get rid of 240V lighting. Makes no sense when running off 12V.

>> I can get around 400W for the price of 80W Solar!?

Wind is simple low cost generator technology as used in cars, so dead 
cheap. I really don't know how reliable wind is in the UK and it will depend a lot if your site is shaded from the wind. But with you only going at WE you have a good chance you'll get enough wind for a decent charge most weeks.

>> I have found one made by Yingli (A Chinese firm) 80W for £270 + £20 postage = £290.

Good price. You never know quality for sure :-(

Now the bad news - you've used your free 5 posts, it'll cost you a tenner to reply to this.


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## rowley (May 14, 2005)

There are some pure sine inverters on ebay that have inbuilt solar regulators for charging the battery. One is item 280261406216.


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## 108509 (Nov 28, 2007)

Hi.As far as the Elecsols are concerned i have two 110amp in my Mh.They are maintainance free and have given excellent performance.

Regards Rob.


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