# Aires, whats the official rule?



## peejay (May 10, 2005)

This often crops up on the forums and I would love to know the official line...

Some are under the opinion that if you stay overnight on an aire you must not put out your awning, put out chairs, tables etc etc or you are breaking the rules and deemed to be 'camping'.

Regardless of the fact that the French usually ignore any rules if they don't agree with them, can anyone refer to an official regulation or link that either confirms or refutes this?


Pete


----------



## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

I believe it's all in the Aires book ? Basically they're motorhome parking and if space is limited it won't be taken kindly by those who want to park. St Valerie en Caux is a prime example of being cramped.


----------



## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Everyone knows that it is law in France that at least once a day every French person has to make some kind of table outside spread a table cloth on it and spend 4 hours having lunch before wondering if they should bother going back to work or not. 

I wouldnt worry about it.


----------



## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

I wouldn't worry if it's not busy but I know what it's like to turn up late afternoon and not be able to park because people are using more space than is fair.


----------



## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

Techno100 said:


> St Valerie en Caux is a prime example of being cramped.


Absolutely, in fact it gets so cramped it is frightening.........literally. We wouldn't have been able to get out if there had been an emergency situation. 8O

Apart from the location and proximity to the town, one other advantage the Aire at St Valerie en Caux, was that to the rear of the MHs, is a grassed area next to the footpath, where many occupants had their tables and chairs out for dining and socialising.

Sorry *Pete*, I can't help with providing any formal regs on the protocol of using Aires.

Cheers,

Jock.


----------



## rugbyken (Jan 16, 2006)

we were on the lovely aire at cognac a few years ago when we had only just started using aires , a french family obviously there for the weekend had visitors a table out and washed the car , but came over in absolute horror when we put out our awning sorry can't quote the chapter and verse but very clear we could all get kicked off if we persisted


----------



## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

Our interpretation is that the spaces, if they are not clearly marked are designed for common sense. Unfortunately the translation of common sense is as exact as any other French translation.
As far as we are concerned, we will park where we feel comfortable. The greater amount of space will always be on the entrance door side of the motorhome. If we do not feel safe then we shall move. We would also expect others to do the same.
As for St Valery en Caux, our opinion is that this is an aire with a very dangerous entrance and once in there possibly one of the most dangerous gatherings of motorhome users anyone has ever come across.
The major benefit is that they are so crammed together, if there is ever a fire they will all fuel the inferno together, with no escape.
Gerry


----------



## Ozzyjohn (Sep 3, 2007)

I agree with the sentiments already posted - the French appear to have scant regard for rules. Everyone else seems to take the same stance when in France. I've also spent single nights on Aires where it was barely possible to open the the kitchen window, never mind wind the awning out - the fire risk can be a bit scary in these circumstances.

My approach so far has been to go through a mental checklist :
1. Having pitched up, would the use of awning / table / chairs prevent a later arrival from being able to park? 
2. Would using any of the above equipment potentially spoil another campers enjoyment?
3. Are there prominent signs telling me not to?

If Mrs O and I are both happy as a result of the above process, we get our kit out. We would always put it away again if we suspected that we were causing inconvenience or offence.


Regards,
John


----------



## jud (Aug 15, 2009)

Techno100 said:


> I wouldn't worry if it's not busy but I know what it's like to turn up late afternoon and not be able to park because people are using more space than is fair.


hi again techno100 we always try and arrive about 11.00am any later on some sites and you have had it  jud


----------



## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Hi;

Thanks for your replies, .

Rightly or wrongly I think it's as I suspected - there ain't no official Aires regulations per se and I believe having equipment 'outside the limits of your van' is merely the distinction between the process of parking overnight or camping, of which the latter isn't allowed - and is directed more towards staying the night in areas away from aires, call it wildcamping or parking up overnight if you like and has nothing to do with aires unless specifically stated on a sign at the aire itself.

I've stayed at quite a few aires in my time and have only come across 2 aires that specifically prohibit putting out awnings, chairs, tables etc and that was at Fouras in the Charente.

Pete


----------



## SNandJA (Aug 22, 2008)

peejay said:


> This often crops up on the forums and I would love to know the official line...
> 
> Some are under the opinion that if you stay overnight on an aire you must not put out your awning, put out chairs, tables etc etc or you are breaking the rules and deemed to be 'camping'.
> 
> ...


I have the answer in the M/H so I'll check it out next time I'm in it but French Law comes into the equation and I think this covers the question.

What are Aires:
The full title for Aires is 'Aire de Service/Stationment pour Camping-Car' which translates to 'Area of service/parking for motorhomes'. These are special areas providing facilities for motorhomes in the form of overnight parking and/or service point for water collection and disposal of waste fluids. Located in towns and villages across France. Aire just means area, therefore the Aires you see on motorways are simply service areas for all vehicles, not the specialist motorhome parking detailed in this guide.

Who can use Aires?
French law forbids caravans and tents from using these Aires, they are just for motorhomes. French law permits motorhomes to be parked responsibly and their users to cook and sleep in them. But French law does not allow for camping, for example winding out awnings, and putting out tables and chairs. If you want to camp, use one of the 10,500 campsites in France.

I think it also forbids the use of leveling blocks/ramps as well.

Steve


----------



## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Thanks Steve, our posts crossed, looking forward to your reply when you find it.

Pete


----------



## SNandJA (Aug 22, 2008)

peejay said:


> Thanks Steve, our posts crossed, looking forward to your reply when you find it.
> 
> Pete


No problem Pete,
I picked up a booklet at the NEC which was a great guide to Etiquette when using aires but it was published by an official source. Sadly I forget vital things nowadays and I think I even posted a link to the source of the booklet on a previous post........ I'll ask the other goldfish in my bowl ... if they remember.... what's a goldfish?!!!!

It is getting late but I'll try and track it down and then we can try and bump the post back up for anyone interested?

One source of the booklet

Steve


----------



## SNandJA (Aug 22, 2008)

More info

Link to another reference to the booklet

Someone else seems to have picked one up as well... although I couldn't get the link on this post to get to the info he was highlighting?

This seems to be where it was meant to go??

Try this link

Steve


----------



## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi!



SNandJA said:


> But French law does not allow for camping, for example winding out awnings, and putting out tables and chairs.


I would be interested to which French law this refers to. I am not aware of any. 8O

The practicalities of camping in France are regulated in the Code de'l urbanisme, Section IV. And this code basically says that, apart from certain exceptions, *wild camping is legal!* Among the exceptions are nature reserves, listed monument sites and beaches, as well as public roads.

Erecting an aire is one possibility for a municipal administration to regulate the practice of wild camping in motorhomes and caravans on its territory. Yes, also caravans, as there is no general ban on caravans using aires. Of course, if traffic signs or signposted local byelaws restrict the aire to be used by MHs only, then caravans must stay out. Same goes for other kinds of restrictions, e.g. against BBQs.

On the other hand this means that if something is not explicitly forbidden, then it is, generally speaking, legal. And - again apart from a few exceptions - my experience is that if something is explicitly forbidden in France, then there is good reason for it.

However, other than in certain other countries (I am German and I know what I am talking about :wink: ), La France expects a certain amount of _common sense_ from her citizens and visitors. Which would mean that on a moderately busy aire you don't roll out an awning, as it could take away parking space. You also don't run a genny if its noise or fumes could disturb other visitors to the aire, or residents. Etc.

The use of chairs and tables is less frowned upon, because you are expected to take them away if the space is needed for another van. There is also no required minimum distance between vans. It goes without saying that doors may not be obstructed, but those who are afraid of a - in my opinion rather far-fetched - fire hazard among closely parked vans should perhaps better consider going to a top-rated camp site with marked pitches.



SNandJA said:


> I think it also forbids the use of leveling blocks/ramps as well.


Certainly not. The Code de'l urbanisme is not that detailed, and common sense gives no reason not to use them.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


----------



## SNandJA (Aug 22, 2008)

Boff said:


> Hi!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree! If you try and search for
Quelles sont les règles de stationnement d'un camping-car ? 
Then the hits don't seem to specifically quote anything other than 
what has been hinted elsewhere although I do vaguely remember finding something referring to parking within 200 metres of the sea. The text in the link in my other posts is replicated below but i have seen similar elsewhere.....

_"The interesting advice on parking is that you can park anywhere, where there are no restrictions in place, for up to 7 days. But all wheels must be in contact with ground ( no chocks or levelling blocks ) no awnings or furniture outside of van, or you will be considered as camping and not parking. The extract from the French highway code reads as follows:

Parking is permitted for a maximum of 7 days after which the vehicle may be reported and removed under article L.417-1 of the French highway code, regardless of wether the vehicle is occupied or not. However the Mayor may legally reduce the permitted parking time to 24 or 48 hours, prohibit parking in narrow or busy streets where could cause serious problems or even prohibit parking on market days."_

Guess the key is to find the definitive definitions of "parking" and "camping"?

Steve


----------



## goldi (Feb 4, 2009)

Evening folks,


Th one at Le touquet where we sometimes stay some people take up two parking spaces with there equipment, if this stopped me finding a spot I would be mightily chessed off, The autoriities that come round for the money should charge double.



norm


----------



## mandyandandy (Oct 1, 2006)

I am surprised others let them get away with that, one bank holiday we were in the larger of the 2 Aires in Le Croytoy and it was packed, sardines would have had more room. 

A couple turned up and the lady made a guy take his bikes off the back of his van and fold his rack up so they could squeeze in the back of him. :roll: :roll: and he did. She did look scary though. 

I would say it is almost 100% common sense and respect for others. Some you can see others with awnings out and sat chatting etc, others are just a car park with little or no room to move. If you have more space than you should you will be able to tell from the stares and tuts usually that you need to budge up. 

Mandy


----------



## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

Boff said:


> but those who are afraid of a - in my opinion rather far-fetched - fire hazard among closely parked vans should perhaps better consider going to a top-rated camp site with marked pitches.


With the utmost respect Gerhard, at St Valerie en Caux, the potential hazard was certainly "not far fetched".
The only other example of such confined parking I have witnessed, was on the river front at Dusseldorf old town, during the Caravan Salon week.

Regards,

Jock.


----------



## peedee (May 10, 2005)

I'm with Jock on this one, not only is dangerous but I am holiday and have no wish to be crammed in with anyone. I even hate cramped pitches on sites. 

I'll use an aire for a night stop en route but prefer a site where I can BBQ if I want, sit around in the sunshine and have room to breath.

peedee


----------



## mandyandandy (Oct 1, 2006)

Strange isn't it , when on an Aire I think its quite funny when we are all packed in like peas in a pod. But whoa betide any one who stops nearer than the allowed 20 foot when we are in the UK :lol: :lol: 

Got some excellent pics of Le Croytoy on a busy weekend that would just be one huge fire ball if it went up, you just takes your choice when there and move on if not happy. 

Mandy


----------



## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi!



SNandJA said:


> Then the hits don't seem to specifically quote anything other than what has been hinted elsewhere ...


This is exactly the problem. Even the editors of renowned travel guides seem to often not do thorough research, but simply present equivocal statements they have found somewhere.

I remember a huge discussion about the Scandinavian "Everybody's Right" in the German MH and camping forums some years ago. Even the German Wikipedia's article about this was infested with nonsense. Until I translated the related first-hand information, i.e. the respective laws of the countries in question, and brought at least the Wikipedia article up to shape. (It seems now that the travel guides follow ...)

The same seems to happen regarding the French aires.



SNandJA said:


> But all wheels must be in contact with ground ( no chocks or levelling blocks )


As said, there seems to be absolutely no first-hand evidence to support such a statement, it is all anecdotal.



SNandJA said:


> ... no awnings or furniture outside of van, or you will be considered as camping and not parking.


This is certainly correct _if parking on a public road._ Because putting out anything like that onto a public road would be seen as an obstruction to road traffic.



> Guess the key is to find the definitive definitions of "parking" and "camping"?


Not when we are talking about aires. Because dedicated aires de camping-car are NOT part of a public road. So on aires, unless written restrictions apply, camping activities are not forbidden.

Regarding space on aires: I am fully aware that certain aires tend to get cramped. But this is the way it is. If you don't like it, then you have to move on. There is no legal requirement for a minimum distance between two vehicles, other than that it must still be possible to open the doors and get in and out.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


----------



## jud (Aug 15, 2009)

mandyandandy said:


> Strange isn't it , when on an Aire I think its quite funny when we are all packed in like peas in a pod. But whoa betide any one who stops nearer than the allowed 20 foot when we are in the UK :lol: :lol:
> 
> Got some excellent pics of Le Croytoy on a busy weekend that would just be one huge fire ball if it went up, you just takes your choice when there and move on if not happy.
> 
> Mandy


 :wink: hi mandyandandy . can we see the pic's please.jud


----------



## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

mandyandandy said:


> Strange isn't it , when on an Aire I think its quite funny when we are all packed in like peas in a pod. But whoa betide any one who stops nearer than the allowed 20 foot when we are in the UK :lol: :lol:


Hi Mandy,

That's where it's a case of "when in Rome", etc, etc, which we accept as visitors, but may not necessary be comfortable with.

(For info, the 6mtr rule on UK licensed campsites is legislation, which for public safety reasons, is enforced, otherwise they could lose their licence.)

I can feel some wild camping coming on, when our unpredictable UK/European weather picks up. :wink:

Cheers,

Jock.


----------



## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Aire*

Depends on the Aire.

Cavaliere in South Eastern France your can put out tables/chairs Awning Washing and even park your tow car / trailer along side you.

It is on the coast road and you can sea the sea or walk 150 metres to swim in it in less than 1 min.

It is €15 a night mind.

TM


----------



## Zepp (May 14, 2009)

We have been on aires when people have gone out for the day ( with moterhome )and left chairs or bikes in the bay to keep there spot.


----------



## peejay (May 10, 2005)

I knew this one would be a can of worms, thats why I asked. :lol:

Thanks for the link Steve (SNandJA), I've applied for a copy of the translated Sicuerl & CLC book via your Marquis link.

Gerhard, one day when I have lots of time on my hand I'll wade through the Code de L'urbanism that you quote but my French isn't great.

As has been hinted, I don't think there are any hard and fast regulations for aires, most rules are directed to camping or parking, I'm thinking it all depends on what regulations the local Mairie wants to stipulate, they are the ones who have the authority.

I shall carry on putting chairs out etc on aires if theres room and as long as there is no signs to the contrary.

As to parking too close together, well thats a whole new subject/can of worms.



Jock said:


> I can feel some wild camping coming on, when our unpredictable UK/European weather picks up


Good idea Jock, don't put your chairs out though, or you'll be in trouble :lol:

Pete


----------



## Jean-Luc (Jul 21, 2005)

As I understand it there are three types of Aires, which can be found separately or combine in one site.

Aire de Services
Aire Camping-car
Aire de Stationnement pour Camping-car, to give it it's full title.

The Aire de Services are, as the title suggests, where services are available.

The Aire Camping-car, which are usually secure areas, often behind an entry barrier, where a fee needs to be paid. In such Aires 'camping' activities are usually, but not universally, allowed.

The Aire de Stationnement pour Camping-car, are where Parking is available. (Stationnement = Parking, stopping or standing)

If tables, chairs, awnings, water or waste containers or other 'camping' equipment is put out one is now longer 'parked' but 'camping', which is forbidden at an Aire de Stationnement. The use of wheel chocks for safety reasons (which I equate to levelers) is specifically mentioned as being allowed. 
The foregoing information information can be found in the Rapido users manual.

I have often 'camped' at an Aire de Stationnement, but with a weather eye out for any indications of disapproval from neighbours or new comers looking for a space.


----------



## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

The OP wanted to know where to find the official Rules. You can view them on www.legifrance.gouv.fr

French general road traffic and parking law is set out in the *Code de la Route*. Articles R417-1 to R417-13 cover parking. The Code de la Route seems to apply to all public roads, including areas accessible to the public - I think that applies to parking on road verges, footpaths, lay-bys, public car parks and aires, in the same way that in the UK they would be deemed to be part of the public highway.

Parking which is dangerous (_dangereux_), annoying or a nuisance (_gênant_), or excessive or causing inconvenience (_abusif_) is an offence, punishable by a scale fine and 3 penalty points. If you put out your table and chairs when you are parked at the roadside you will be considered to be contravening one or more of these Articles. Parking on an aire in such a way that you block the movement, access or departure of other aire users would also be covered by this regulation. Likewise, if you park across more than one marked parking bays, or if you obstruct an adjacent marked bay.

Other Codes apply when a motorhome is parked up with equipment being used in camping mode. These are the *Code Général des Collectivités Territoriales* and *Code de l'Urbanisme*. About 15 Articles under these 2 Codes give legal powers to regulate motorhome parking. The Mayors (or Préfets) can make local traffic and parking restrictions that apply to various categories of vehicles. However some local restrictions aimed solely at prohibiting all parking by Camping-Cars have been overturned by the Administrative Courts as discriminatory.

Since 1985, under French Law there has been a general right for camping-cars to find somewhere to park in each commune, by night as well as day. In 2004 this was qualified to allow restrictions to be put on overnight parking by occupied vehicles for reasons of safety, in areas that are deemed sensitive. Any municipality or commune can make it illegal for an aire to be used by camping-cars for camping purposes, including overnight stays. The legitimate aim can be to preserve public order (including prevention of noise during hours of darkness), or environmental reasons.

Keep an eye out for a notice which refers to "_stationnement avec hébergement_" being "_interdit_", for example. Technically that means use of the aire for camping is forbidden. Putting out camping equipment such as tables and chairs, or an awning, BBQ etc. on such an aire will bring attention to a breach of the local regulation, which is enforceable by the Police. You can be ordered to move on, failing which the Police can clamp your vehicle or get it towed to the pound (which may also happen if the vehicle is unoccupied).

The definition of a camping-car under French law (autocaravane) categorises it as a caravan. While the camping-car is being used for transporting people it is a private vehicle and is therefore allowed to park on an aire, but as soon as it is being used for camping purposes "_hébergement_" it ceases to be a private vehicle and is deemed to be a caravan. When you put your table and chairs out, you are no longer just parking, so you are deemed to be caravanners, therefore subject to different rules.

Hope this helps clarify the legal situation regarding motorhome parking on aires.

Wild camping in France is also quite heavily regulated, but that is a topic for another thread.

SD


----------



## PeterandLinda (Feb 21, 2009)

Hi 

We were once told by a very officious woman on a (pay) Stellplatz in Germany who came to empty the parking ticket machine to put our 2 chairs and coffee table away. An hour later all the Germans on the site were barbecuing and eating outside. We were too scared !

L+P


----------



## Boff (May 10, 2005)

PeterandLinda said:


> We were once told by a very officious woman on a (pay) Stellplatz in Germany who came to empty the parking ticket machine to put our 2 chairs and coffee table away.


Well, Germany is not France ... Do you remember the old joke?

_In Germany, anything that is not explicitly allowed, is forbidden.
In France, anything that is not explicitly forbidden, is allowed. :wink: _

Best Regards,
Gerhard


----------



## jud (Aug 15, 2009)

Zepp said:


> We have been on aires when people have gone out for the day ( with moterhome )and left chairs or bikes in the bay to keep there spot.


hi zepp well with what i have been hearing about travellers are using m/h's now so they can go on aires so these people should watch out some traveller will move in there spot :lol: .jud


----------



## eddied (May 9, 2005)

*Aires/Aree di Sosta*

 Buon giorno tutti, ciao Speedydux.
You have covered most of what the situation is in your post. If it is of any help the question is totally covered in a document dated 19/10/2004 no. NOR INTD 0400127C issued by the Ministry of the Interior, adressed to Prefects and Chiefs of Police throughout France; and referrring back to an Interministerial document of 27/06/85. Very simply put; if 'parking' you cannot open compass windows, awnings, steps, tables/chairs etc. One of the reasons why many French campervans have sliding rather than compass windows for the kitchen area.
The situation in Italy is basically the same. As we speak a furious debate is in progress on the subject in a Camperonline forum. National legislation has been abrogated, and it is now up to the Regional governments to legislate. Some have, some haven't, and confusion reigns supreme.  so what's new?
saluti,
eddied


----------



## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

Eddied, thanks for that reference. The 2004 ministerial Circular appears to have resulted from a perception by some French communes and municipalities of the abuse by growing numbers of both French and foreign motorhomers of the right to park their camping-cars overnight in popular tourist areas. 

The ministry recognised that a nuisance was being caused that might provoke hostile reactions due to the behaviour of the owners of motorhomes who neither respected French law, nor local custom and practice, nor the environment. Hence outright bans on motorhome parking were appearing in some tourist areas. That in turn led to protests to the French Government, from the motorhome manufacturers and clubs. The ministry was reminding the local powers-that-be of the scope and limits of their jurisdiction under the applicable Codes, and the need to avoid overstepping them in their desire to control motorhome use in their areas. 

The Circular doesn’t contain a definition as such of the difference between overnight parking and camping. The prohibition on putting out of chairs, tables, steps, and opening of windows etc. must be spelt out elsewhere in the French legal system; I just haven’t found the right reference yet. 

This thread ought to be read by all the MHers who love using French aires. The French laws and customs relating to the use of aires need to be understood and respected by all visitors from the UK. The overriding intention of French law is that aires de service for camping cars - those including parking spaces and not just a borne - are simply designated places where the camping-car can park overnight (or in some cases for a specific time – usually up to 48 hours). If a MHer wishes to spend many days or weeks pitched up on an aire (or roadside - limited to 7 days maximum under the Code) that is basically illegal in all France. For longer stays French law specifically says that MHers ought to use a proper campsite, not an aire. Municipal campsite fees are generally cheap by UK standards anyway; some aires cost almost as much.

It would be wrong for UK MHers to assume that just because in their experience putting out chairs etc. seems to be tolerated on some French aires it must be an acceptable custom and practice, when it is in fact illegal and very much frowned on by the local powers-that-be. Even if what MHers want to do appears to be tolerated (for example the Police or Mayor hasn’t actually ordered them to move on - yet) it is unacceptable. Abuse of the aires de service stirs resentment and eventual hostility among some of the local French inhabitants – that is also a clear message. If the majority of MHers start believing that putting out chairs etc. and using aires for lengthy stays is acceptable then sooner or later there will be a backlash that will spoil it for everyone. 


SD


----------



## CliffyP (Dec 19, 2008)

We remember being on the Aire in Granville in March 2008, when we arrived only two motorhomes on an Aire that would take 25/30 plus. We parked well away from the other two (by the steps going down to the town, for anyone thats been on it) and about an hour later a Frenchie came on and parked so close to us, he had to move over to open his camper door. Their window was right next to ours and if felt like we were in the same van. Within 20 seconds a bunch of flowers was on the table, and almost as quick they were sat with a drink and sandwiches, we were in tears :lol: :lol:, The van was held together with fibre glass and duct tape, and it was like sitting next to a kid with knits :roll: . The stayed till morning, just the four of us on the Aire. We got chatting (in a fashion) in the evening, and they were a lovely couple, we have since been told though that the French feel more secure closer to others. Good job wev'e got past the rocking the van and screaming age (except for birthdays and special occassions :wink: )


----------



## Techno100 (May 8, 2010)

Many aires are marked out and you pay for a space so why on earth would it be thought of as acceptable to wind out the canopy and put chairs and tables out?(in the next bay)The whole issue is about space. There is quite often a strip of grass behind or nearby where I doubt it would be frowned upon to picnic. Aires like Le Treport have this and picnic tables too. If I turned up and the last available space was taken up by some dipstick's furniture no matter what nationality I'd be well angry


----------



## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

Techno100 said:


> Clipped.....If I turned up and the last available space was taken up by some dipstick's furniture no matter what nationality I'd be well angry


Aye, me too.

On the camping area near the Dusseldorf Messe, there are pitches between trees. We pitched up leaving enough room for another MH to park up in front of us. We went out for a snout about, and when we came back, French matey had reversed so close to our front bumper, that we couldn't get through the gap, and as there was a tree behind me, I couldn't move our MH. :x

It turned out that his acute pitching, was all down to him getting a decent satellite signal through a gap in the trees, with little regard for anyone else. :evil: 
It wasn't long before his evening's viewing was duly disturbed, and a reasonable gap appeared between both MHs. Sorted. :wink:

Cheers,

Jock.


----------



## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Some excellent info in this thread, thanks to everyone who responded, theres some particularly informative and thorough replies that I wasn't expecting.

merci beaucoup!

Pete


----------

