# C1 provisional licence



## dawnwynne (Nov 14, 2009)

I've been searching the dvla website and can't find the answer to my question and I know someone here must know...so here it goes.

If I apply for my C1 Provisional licence, once I receive it who can I drive with? Can I legally drive with someone who was licensed prior to Jan 1997 therefore legally able to drive up to 7.5 ton vehicle?


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Simple answer is providing they hold a FULL licence to drive that class of vehicle yes ! (just like any other learner but there are a few exceptins which do not apply in this case)

You will have to display "L" plates though !!!!


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## dawnwynne (Nov 14, 2009)

YES...that is the answer I was hoping for....you have made my day!!! :lol: :lol: 

I don't mind L plates...it will make me feel young again!!


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

I am trying to get my C1 back, forgot to tick the box at age 70, the grief is unbelievable.

Treadmill test which I failed due to breathlessness in November, had to wait until last week when I went to the Nuclear Medicine Dept at a hosptital in South London, I live near Reading so quite a journey.

One radioactive and heart stress injection on Monday and a scan, back today for another radioactive injection and another scan, I am like the Atomic Man now!

Results from DVLA next week so they say, at the speed the DVLA work, some hopes. Only taken eight months so far.

Peter


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

Yes. 
But only in the UK I believe. 
James


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

I certainly do know how you feel Peter, just gone through the same whole thing myself.wont know what the result is till middle July. DVLA, dont make me laugh, I can think of many things that those letters stand for.

cabby


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

*** UPDATE ***

Oooo - I've edited this. I might have to disagree with MrPlodd, much as it pains me. 

See http://www.dsa.gov.uk/Category.asp?cat=607

"These changes will not affect anyone's existing entitlement to drive C1 or D1 vehicles or vehicle plus trailer combinations. *But they will prevent anyone from acting as an accompanying driver in such vehicles if they only hold pre-1997 implied entitlements*"

Read the rest of the DSA article - it's comprehensive.

Dougie.


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## dawnwynne (Nov 14, 2009)

Okay I know now that I was never ever intended to be a legal eagle because that link has really thrown up more questions than answers...but I thank you for it Dougie...I have pm'ed you if you don't mind a little help.

Peter and Cabby hope you get your licence upgraded again very soon!

Looks like I'm on the look out of an assessment/training centre to take the test. Anyone know of one in the Sussex area?


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## dawnwynne (Nov 14, 2009)

Dougie,

The link you gave me has brought up a couple questions...I know it's just me...but honestly by the time I re-read it a couple times...I was losing the will! :lol: :lol:

It states this:

_Before January 1997, drivers who passed the car driving test were also granted implied entitlement to drive small lorries, buses and vehicle plus trailer combinations (categories C1, C1+E, D1 and D1+E) subject to certain restrictions. _

Can you tell me what those 'certain restrictions' are?

And does this imply that anyone with a pre -1997 licence must have taken the test (irrespective of whether they have the entitlement to drive in this category) in order to be a supervised driver?

Sorry if it seems obvious to you....but to me...I can read it many ways...it's a talent I know! :wink: :lol:


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

*Supervising Learner Drivers of category C1 and D1 including vehicle plus trailer combinations*

Supervising Learner Drivers of category C1 and D1 including vehicle plus trailer combinations

We intend to clarify the accompanying driver rules in respect of holders of pre-1997 licences who supervise learner drivers in category C1, D1 including vehicle plus trailer combinations. We consulted on this change in 2007 and subsequently announced that the change would be introduced - but not earlier than 6 April 2010.

Before January 1997, drivers who passed the car driving test were also granted implied entitlement to drive small lorries, buses and vehicle plus trailer combinations (categories C1, C1+E, D1 and D1+E) subject to certain restrictions.

_Learner drivers should not drive a vehicle on public roads unless they are being supervised by a qualified driver. The qualified driver (also known as the accompanying driver) must hold a full licence for the category of vehicle being driven and must have held that licence for the relevant period of time - usually 3 years. In our view, implied rights entitlements do not meet the first of those criteria because of the restrictions attaching to the licence. Also, there are road safety issues involved where a person who has never passed the relevant driving test acts as the supervisor for a leaner driver in a category C1 or D1 vehicle (including +E combinations)._

These changes will not affect anyone's existing entitlement to drive C1 or D1 vehicles or vehicle plus trailer combinations. But they will prevent anyone from acting as an accompanying driver in such vehicles if they only hold pre-1997 implied entitlements.

Anyone, particularly in the training industry, who currently relies on implied entitlements and wants to continue to act as an accompanying driver in C1 or D1 vehicles ( including +E combinations) after the change is introduced, will need to pass the relevant driving test(s) before 6 April 2010. We will ensure that such people are already considered to meet the requirement relating to the length of time that the full licence must have been held - usually 3 years - from the date of the change.

If they pass the relevant driving test(s) and meet the appropriate medical standards after the 6 April 2010, they will have to wait until they have held their new entitlement for three years before they can act as the supervising driver.

However, if they have passed a driving test for one category of vocational licence and have held that licence for a period of three years, they will only have to wait a period of one year from the date they pass the test for another category of vocational vehicle before they can supervise a learner driver in that category of vehicle.
[hr:0ee24b46ba]

Dissected then:-

_The qualified driver (also known as the accompanying driver) must hold a full licence for the category of vehicle being driven and must have held that licence for the relevant period of time - usually 3 years. _

See next bit - people who passed their test pre-1997 did not need to take a C1 test, so can continue to drive C1 vehicles. However, they do not actually hold a C1 licence.

_These changes will not affect anyone's existing entitlement to drive C1 or D1 vehicles or vehicle plus trailer combinations. But they will prevent anyone from acting as an accompanying driver in such vehicles if they only hold pre-1997 implied entitlements. _

The key points are *existing pre-1997 drivers* who are entitled to drive C1 vehicles and *accompanying drivers* who must hold a C1 licence. This ruling therefore excludes pre-1997 drivers from being accompanying drivers unless & until they pass the C1 test. Now that the April 2010 deadline is passed, they must wait 3 years before qualifying to become accompanying drivers after passing the C1 test.

Hopefully the rest of the article will make sense with that as the backdrop. Easy eh. 

Dougie.


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Good link, Dougie, but typically unclear statement from the DSA - 

What are the 'restrictions attached' to a C1 licence? 

'In our view, implied rights entitlements do not meet the first of those criteria because of the restrictions attaching to the licence'

The rights are not implied, they are given (by law?).

My father had the choice of a Class 1 Licence (now C+E) or a Certificate of Professional Competence (CPC) to operate lorries. On the back of that 'implied' qualification, we operated lorries throughout Europe (and Russia) without once falling foul of any legislation (A green traffic light score from VOSA) 

I can see where DSA is coming from, and don't necessarily disagree that trainees should be accompanied by a driver who has themself undertake training and a test for that class of vehicle.

My C1 Licence is by 'implied rights', so does this statement 'the qualified driver (also known as the accompanying driver) must hold a full licence for the category of vehicle being driven and must have held that licence for the relevant period of time – usually 3 years' mean that I can't supervise a learner in C1 category vehicle?

Does my C+E licence (obtained via test pass) only qualify me to accompany drivers in C+E vehicles? The above statement implies this. On that basis I couldn't accompany drivers in a category C vehicle either, as I only passed an artic test (old Class 1).

This may be another of those 'interpretations' of the law by a government department that is not what was intended when the law was made.

David


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## dawnwynne (Nov 14, 2009)

Thanks Dougie...clear as mud! :lol: 

Seriously, thanks for the help, I don't fully understand but you are da law  ...so I'll go with what you say! (aren't you glad you're not a teacher? lol) ...unfortunately I thought this would be the case but there was always a chance! 

So back to my previous post....does anyone know of a training/assessment centre in the West Sussex area that they can recommend? 

I cannot in good conscience make my other half do all the driving...tempting as that might be!! :lol:


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

b16duv said:


> Good link, Dougie, but typically unclear statement from the DSA


I disagree. It's clear to me (at any rate).

'In our view, implied rights entitlements do not meet the first of those criteria because of the restrictions attaching to the licence' means that you have to now pass a test to entitle you to drive a C1 vehicle, if you didn't pass your car test pre-1997. You then wait 3 years and you become qualified to be an accompanying driver. That's simple enough. Additionally, "implied rights" mean the pre-1997 rights _to drive_ C1 vehicles. That's not in question either. What can't happen though is that the implied driving rights are translated to implied accompanying rights. The law to which you refer is the law they have made to exclude pre-1997 drivers automatically becoming accompanying drivers (which is what the article is all about).



b16duv said:


> My C1 Licence is by 'implied rights', so does this statement 'the qualified driver (also known as the accompanying driver) must hold a full licence for the category of vehicle being driven and must have held that licence for the relevant period of time - usually 3 years' mean that I can't supervise a learner in C1 category vehicle?


That's exactly the case. You can't - see my explanation overleaf.



b16duv said:


> Does my C+E licence (obtained via test pass) only qualify me to accompany drivers in C+E vehicles? The above statement implies this. On that basis I couldn't accompany drivers in a category C vehicle either, as I only passed an artic test (old Class 1).


It does (only qualify you to accompany for C+E). Imagine if you tried to accompany a motorcycle rider? You must hold a licence to drive a vehicle of the type you are accompanying for, and for the minimum period set out by law (3 years for C1, 1 year for D1).
 ** see below*



b16duv said:


> This may be another of those 'interpretations' of the law by a government department that is not what was intended when the law was made


As I say, it's clear enough when you understand the rationale behind it (and don't confuse yourself with other licence categories ).

Dougie.

 **To be fair, that's only my understanding, and I can't find evidence of it right now. You should check it out - DSA don't appear to have an article for C/C+E.*


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

dawnwynne said:


> I don't fully understand


You need to, and you can.

Basically, you cannot have someone accompany (supervise) you whilst learning to drive a C1 vehicle, who themselves has not passed the C1 test.

AND they must have passed it 3 or more years ago.

Dougie.


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## dawnwynne (Nov 14, 2009)

Thanks Dougie,

You're post just after mine...made it much clearer...and now I get it! 

Isn't this forum great...thanks for the help!


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

Totally off topic but just noticed, how many paper rounds did Dougie have? 
40? 
James


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Then it's clearly unclear Dougie!

I can accompany a provisional licence holder in a 44 tonne artic that is 55 feet long (or 16.5metres, or 18.5 metres if it's a wagon and drag)

But I can't accompany him or her in the wagon (without the drag) cos I didn't pass a cat C test!

And I cannot accompany said person in a little 7.5tonne box van! Other than size, what is the difference? (okay it doesn't bend in the middle)

My Licence has Cat C1 on it with category restriction 107 (to do with trailer combination weight) There is nothing implied about that category on my licence, I hold that category until my 70th birthday (unless medical issues intervene).

Dawnwynne, if you find out where the HGV driving tests are carried out in your area (often based at a VOSA testing station), there will be loads of instructors hanging about waiting on candidates returning. There is also a list of which companies have the best 
pass rates (though that may not be for public consumption).

David

edit I do agree with Dougie about the C1 thing though with the accompanying driver! The article does say, though 'In our view.....' 
which may or may not be correct!


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## dawnwynne (Nov 14, 2009)

JP said:


> Totally off topic but just noticed, how many paper rounds did Dougie have?
> 40?
> James


Must not be my night but I'm :? :? :lol:


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

I must admit I find this somewhat objectionable.

It is perfectly clear...if you have C1(107) rights because you passed your test prior to 1997, you can drive a C1 but are not allowed to be an accompanying driver while a learner prepares for such a test. Fair enough in terms of understanding the rules.

But the logic of why you can't is that your license has restrictions (107 means 7.5 tonne max for vehicle, 8.25 tonne train weight), and that you didn't pass a C1 test. But you did! The test prior to 1997 covered C1 (hence the inherited rights). It concerns me that there's a creeping deprecation of the license rights...we now only have implied rights, how long before these are taken away because they're only "implied", not "real"?

Paul


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## camper69 (Aug 30, 2007)

Rosbotham said:


> But the logic of why you can't is that your license has restrictions (107 means 7.5 tonne max for vehicle, 8.25 tonne train weight), and that you didn't pass a C1 test. But you did! The test prior to 1997 covered C1 (hence the inherited rights). It concerns me that there's a creeping deprecation of the license rights...we now only have implied rights, how long before these are taken away because they're only "implied", not "real"?
> 
> Paul


I was just going to post exactly the the same as that was the limits on the licence when I passed.

Derek


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

b16duv said:


> But I can't accompany him or her in the wagon (without the drag) cos I didn't pass a cat C test!


Indeed. I quite understand that being objectionable, but it doesn't change the revised legislation (and I've already said I'm unsure of the position with Cat C or CE. Do your own research!



b16duv said:


> And I cannot accompany said person in a little 7.5tonne box van! Other than size, what is the difference?


The legislation. :roll: Listen, I never made a law, so don't shoot the monkey. 8O



b16duv said:


> I do agree with Dougie about the C1 thing though with the accompanying driver! The article does say, though 'In our view.....' which may or may not be correct!


Geez. Given that that was the OP's question, and that was what the article is about, what's all the fuss about? 8O



JP said:


> Totally off topic but just noticed, how many paper rounds did Dougie have? 40?


James old bean - what are you on abart??

Dougie.


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## b16duv (Feb 14, 2006)

Dougie,

I'm not trying to wind you up, honest! 

There really isn't any fuss on my part, was just enjoying a discussion! 

The point I was trying to make was that DSA say it's their opinion....


I did also say that I think it's the right thing to restrict the supervision of learners to those who have themselves been through some training and passed a test, as well as having experience.

3 years licence ownership ain't the same as having experience though !

Anyway, sorry if I've upset you Dougie, it wasn't my intention.

David


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

b16duv said:


> Anyway, sorry if I've upset you Dougie, it wasn't my intention.


David,

My use of smileys in my previous obviously wasn't liberal enough. :roll:  I'm completely cool about it, and came nowhwere near being wound up. It's actually been a useful topic, as I'll bet not many pre-1997 "grandfathers" know they're not entitled to accompany C1 learners.

Dougie.


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## 91502 (May 1, 2005)

asprn said:


> JP said:
> 
> 
> > Totally off topic but just noticed, how many paper rounds did Dougie have? 40?
> ...


Dougie
It says your age 40?
Never
James


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

JP said:


> [It says your age 40? Never


Honestly mate - you'll need to let me have some of your pills. I still don't have a clue.

8O


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## UncleNorm (May 1, 2005)

asprn said:


> as I'll bet not many pre-1997 "grandfathers" know they're not entitled to accompany C1 learners.


Thanks Dougie! I had no idea!  It _*has *_been a good thread and a very useful link, now assigned to my favourites for future reference.  :wink:


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## dawnwynne (Nov 14, 2009)

Thanks everyone for a good thread...not the answer I was hoping for but glad I asked and didn't take it for granted or god only knows what may have happened!


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

asprn said:


> *Supervising Learner Drivers of category C1 and D1 including vehicle plus trailer combinations*
> 
> Supervising Learner Drivers of category C1 and D1 including vehicle plus trailer combinations
> 
> ...


Just out of interest, Who makes up all these rules, is it Parliament. or someone in the DVLA.

Wobby


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

wobby said:


> Just out of interest, Who makes up all these rules, is it Parliament. or someone in the DVLA


There's no easy answer. "All these rules" isn't a definitive thing, but in general, Parliament proposes, discusses, and ultimately passes & amends laws. The DSA article above will be a user-friendly guide to the legislation - it isn't something which someone in the DSA has decided.

*Hansard* is the Parliamentary record which (sad, I know) I quite enjoy delving into sometimes. It brings debate to a personal level I can understand (I didn't say always agree with...). By way of example, have a look >> here << - then search the page for *Learner Drivers* - about 2/3 down. There's a record of a question in the House of Commons by one MP to a Minister about the publishing of an official syllabus.
_[hr:ddb58aeb91]"Mr. Neale : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether any conclusions have been reached about publishing an official syllabus for learner drivers and riders.

Mr. Atkins : The Department consulted last autumn on this proposal and the suggestion was widely welcomed. I have therefore decided that the Driving Standards Agency should produce a book containing the syllabus plus related information such as how to apply for a driving or motor cycling test. It is intended that the book will go on sale towards the end of this year"_[hr:ddb58aeb91]
So whoever has Government responsibility for publishing departmental guides, will have delegated the "accompanying drivers" guide to the DSA to produce, after the legislation was (in the Cat C1 test issue) amended

If you search a second time on the Hansard page for *Learner Drivers*, you'll see reference by the Minister to his having _"laid in the House regulations that require accompanying drivers to be at least 21 years old and to have held a full licence for three years. In order to ensure that existing and future provisional licence holders are aware fully of the new requirements, they will come into force on 1 October 1990. I urge strongly all provisional licence holders to ensure that those who accompany them meet these requirements now, and not to wait until 1 October [1990]._

Just to clarify, the above Hansard questions have nothing to do with the OP's question, but are purely to illustrate a little how the Government process works.

Good question about how these things work. Hope that shed a little light.

Dougie.


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## dawnwynne (Nov 14, 2009)

asprn said:


> wobby said:
> 
> 
> > Just out of interest, Who makes up all these rules, is it Parliament. or someone in the DVLA
> ...


Now that's interesting Dougie.....If I have this correct...

DSA interpret what is passed in legislation for the booklet, it would be interesting to note whether these 'booklets' ....hence the interpretation is ever brought back to parliament for approval or simply left at that.

In business when the Board requires a subgroup to develop something (in this case a phamplet) based on the Boards's findings, the final version would need to be approved by the board as a true representation before it is agreed to proceed.

Interesting.


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## asprn (Feb 10, 2006)

dawnwynne said:


> In business when the Board requires a subgroup to develop something (in this case a phamplet) based on the Boards's findings, the final version would need to be approved by the board as a true representation before it is agreed to proceed. Interesting.


I just don't know the process to that extent, but I'm certain there will be a "signing-off" process.  Ultimately, it's the legislation which counts - not the user guide - but I'm sure you could find out. An email to your MP asking the question would probably produce the answer.

* www.theyworkforyou.com *is a brilliant site, making access to local & central Government such a piece of cake. I was recently able to report a large hole in my road to the right department of teh right Council, with about 3 mouse-clicks! (And it was repaired in 2 days..) It's a great resource.

Dougie.


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## Cherekee (May 1, 2005)

and another slight anomaly I have found.

Although we are in Guernsey the same law seems to apply re licences.

My partner moved to Guernsey in 1968 and changed her car licence which may/or may not have included at that time (I have researched but cannot find out) a category to drive a small truck. The 1997 category which I think started in 1972. As far as I can ascertain it would seem that even though she had a licence prior to 1997 she has not inherited grandfather rights so now has to take a C1 to drive our Rapido.

So the plot thickens!!!

Alan


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