# Distressing



## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

The below was brought to my attention and I feel compelled to share it. The video clip concerned is available on the National Geographic website under The Dog Whisperer (!) video clips "aggressive dogs" and is, I think, labelled Shadow the dominant wolf or some other such ridiculous title. If I knew how to do links I would but perhaps the mods could help here. I warn you that it might distress you.
Quote -

Many of you may be aware of a National Geographic television show featuring a charismatic individual who helps dog owners. I recently came across this video on the website and I urge you to watch it (preferably without the sound so as not to be distracted by his talking) and keep your eye on the dog. Here is what you will see: 

Within the first 5 seconds, the handler kicks the dog in the abdomen. When the dog turns toward him he is jerked off his feet. A struggle ensues where the handler gets bitten several times and the dog is seen to be struggling for air. Finally he gets the dog onto the ground and the dogs tongue is blue and the dog is gasping for breath. When he finally gets the dog up it appears that there might be urine on the ground and that the dog voided his bladder in distress. 

What you have witnessed is not dog training but abuse. Not only does the dog suffer, but clients are at risk if they attempt these interventions themselves. These are not appropriate measures and compromise the welfare of the dog and the safety of people. His explanations are false and not based on science as we know it. We as veterinarians must make our voices heard and let National Geographic and most importantly our clients know that these types of interventions are wrong and not in the best interest of dogs or people. 

As a veterinary behaviorist I have dealt with behavior problems in companion animals for over 25 years and would never confront a dog this way. Not only would it be dangerous for me and the family, it would be harmful for the dog. My goal is diagnose the problem, and design humane treatment plans that help the family change the behavior of their dog so that they can safely live together. I hope all veterinarians can agree that this is the best approach. 

I would love to hear your thoughts. Most importantly, go to the link and scroll down the page to “contact us” and click on that. Let National Geographic know what you think.

Unquote

Pat



Thank you for your time


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## Pusser (May 9, 2005)

Link :?:


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## annetony (May 1, 2005)

I have tried to find the video on the website but cant find it, maybe someone could post the link for you

I hate all cruelty to animals and if this video shows any form of cruelty then Ceaser Milan must be held accountable

Anne


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

I cant believe our hero has been cruel please put the link up so we can judge.
But worse still I have copied this on Louis where we hold him to the floor to calm him --does this mean we have been using cruel treatment.
I have just patted him on the head and said sorry, I got a lick.


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## litcher (Jul 24, 2006)

Is it this one? Working with a wolf

Viv


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## litcher (Jul 24, 2006)

Hmmm, didn't quite work. When it goes to that page, click on "aggression" then go to the second page of video clips. I think it's the middle video on the bottom row. You have to watch an advert first.

Viv


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

It's >> this one << I think.

But it takes a while to load up and come onto the background screen.

Dave


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## litcher (Jul 24, 2006)

Same one but better link. Thanks Dave.

Viv


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

you have to click on "aggression" and then it is in page two and yes it is called working with a wolf!

Pat


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Thanks Dave - I will talk to you about an Avatar when I get back from France in a couple of weeks :wink:


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

Ok I have it and have watched it but it was a lot of dog to handle.
He does lay quietly in the end--- can we really say its cruelty though?
What would happen to the dog if he didnt calm it surely it would be destroyed?
That hanging method was used at the local dog training at Swalecliffe.
I never went back after Louis first lesson.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

locovan said:


> Ok I have it and have watched it but it was a lot of dog to handle.
> He does lay quietly in the end--- can we really say its cruelty though?
> What would happen to the dog if he didnt calm it surely it would be destroyed?


My thoughts exactly Mavis, especially your point about the dog being destroyed. 8O

The thing that worries me a bit is the obvious cuts in the video. :?

I would really like to see what goes on between "takes" when the camera is not running.

I didn't see anything that I would consider too drastic with such a seriously aggressive dog . . . but, how did he get it to submit so completely in such an apparently short time? I can't get our Gracie to submit like that when she has been very naughty, and she's the soppiest creature you could meet.

Hmmmm. I shall neither condone or condemn, because I think we have not seen the whole story. :roll: :roll:

Dave


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

If you google Ceaser Milan cruelty it does come up with a lot of thoughts on it


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

The dog was ok until he was kicked and jerked.
No one should hang a dog until he collapses, the tongue goes blue and his bladder empties.
Why, if Shadow was so aggressive, was he not muzzled for the session?
Why was Cesar Milan not wearing protective clothing.
In order to obtain professional indemnity insurance a behaviourist must follow these rulles:-
Before visiting the dog the owner must be instructed to put the dog in another room in order to admit you to the house.
The owner must fit a muzzle and a collar and lead supplied by the behaviourist to the dog before it is brought into the room.

Cesar didn't diagnose aggression he said it was "dominance". This went out in the eighties as we have discussed on here before. Whatever it was, and whatever went on in the out takes, the dog did not deserve to be throttled until he was blue through lack of oxygen.


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

It's American show-biz Pat, and that worries me almost as much as the out-takes. 8O 8O 

Dave


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

I followed zebs link.
To be honest i had to watch it twice before i saw the "kick"

This did not appear to me to be a hard kick but a distractive move which I do use o my rough collie, very rarely i must add This is the same as tapping an unruly youngster on the backside. It is a case of who is to be the leader at the end of the day

We used it in dog training class years ago. Not harmfull. Purely as a distraction. I have seen worse in military / police dog handlers training exercises

The hanging method of control i disagree with, but with a powerfull determined dog measures of control must be used.

Mankind uses far worse measures on fellow man.

I am pleased our daughters huskies are the oposite temperamet to shadow.

Dave P


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> We used it in dog training class years ago.
> 
> "Years ago" being the operative wording. I too plead guilty. We know better now and so should Cesar Millan!
> 
> ...


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## waz (Jan 5, 2008)

I seen a disclaimer about his show that basically said that what you see in the 1 hour show has been filmed over 2/3 days or more.
Waz


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

patp, quote from my reply.

quote i used it years ago,as a distractive move


It is the same as a tap on the backside to an unruly yougster.
How many times do you tap someone on the shoulder to get their attention?
I do not like cruelty to animals in any form.
iI have rewatched the video and still think this was more of a tap than a kick.

Animals have actions and reactions just like us animals.

dave p


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

pat p
you forgot the fourth F


dave p


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Go on then. 

Or is it unprintable :roll: ?


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Like a lot of what i think unprintable but it ends in k

The more i watch this video the less i think it was a kick in the sense of a kick.
it was to distract the dog which it certainly did.
Ceaser used his right foot round the back of his left leg. He did not loose his balance and the dogs attention was certainly attracted. No violence involved. However as my previous reply to hold the dog in the manner that he did was totaly wrong


Dave P


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> Like a lot of what i think unprintable but it ends in k


With ladies present Dave it ends in "e".

Fornicate. 8O

You can get away with that even if those dreadful Mods are looking!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dave


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Thaks zeb i`ll go and wash my mouth out with a double.


Dave P


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## Rainbow-Chasers (Sep 2, 2008)

The aggression comes from dominance, and a leaders reluctance to relinquish that dominant status - dogs can be very stubborn! They like to do things on their terms.

When the dog is in this state of aggression, firstly ANY backdown will result in the dog becoming more dominant - so anything has to be carried through or you are wasting your time, and the dog will never respond to any of your commands again as you have displayed weakness. The more dominant he is, the longer he will persist. It is much like a toddlers tantrum - you would think they are being murdered, and parents often get scornful looks - but as with the dog - the child is fighting to maintain control, and dislikes the parent disallowing it - but they learn!


Secondly, When in an aggressive state, or fight mode - the pain a dogs feels is virtually nil. The focus is on the attack. The only place a dog will respond is in the side - this is a sensitive point that will gain the dogs attention and distract him from his fight focus. It is not a kick, but touching using your foot - there is no power in it - it is there purely as a distraction method to bring down the aggression. Same as if you poke someone in the side when they are distracted. It serves to get the attention but is not painful!

Yes, sometimes it can look cruel, but it is for the good of the dog. Dogs get distressed when at a vets - do you not take them? No! It is for the best for the dog and it's comfort, although it may not like the idea, your yelping dog at the vets doesn't make you a cruel torturer!

At the end of the day, the dog is being dealt with how it would be by another dog. It is not a human telling a dog off, nor is it a human training - it is a human using the dogs natural manerisms to manipulate the situation and take control. A dog in the wild would fight another virtually to death to acheive the same result.


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## joedenise (Jul 20, 2007)

Totally agree with Rainbow Chasers. People should stop treating their dogs as if they are human!


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Oh dear we have RainbowChaser giving dogs human emotions i.e. "dominance" and JoeDenise telling us we shouldn't.

It has now been irrefutably proved that wild dogs do not dominate each other. That thinking came from some very old studies on captive wolves which had limited resources and so would fight over which one had access to them (resource guarding - not dominance).

The latest, scientifically conducted, studies show that dogs actually do not want to be leaders. In the wild it is all about survival and the fittest, fastest dog is almost democratically elected to lead the pack because that is the best way to ensure survival.

This would tie in with the fact that dogs came to live with man all those thousands of years ago. They saw a place for them to help man hunt and to share in the leftovers. Recent studies suggest that they started off by clearing up the latrines!

The late great John Fisher, the father of the thinking of dominance in dogs, did a complete about face on the subject when he re visited the dogs he had put on "rank reduction" programmes because their bad behaviour was thought to be, at that time, caused by the dog behaving in a dominant fashion. He later wrote that we can try all we like to label dogs as dominant but it all means diddly squat to the dog.

Modern thinking is that each and every behaviour problem has a cause and it is rooted in the emotionality of the dog. A modern behaviourist will do an emotional assessment of the dog both in its normal state and during the problem behaviour. In Shadow's case he would be assessed in the home first to see how near he is, during his daily life, to "resting contentment". If he is either depressed or highly excitable or anything other than calm then that would be worked on first so that any treatment for the problem could start from a level playing field. Once the dog is calm in his daily life then the problem behaviour would be addressed by observing the dog during the behaviour.

The only time the dog is not observed "in action" is in cases of aggression. This is because "rehearsal" makes the problem much harder to cure.

A very detailed history would be taken in all cases starting with the type of rearing by the breeder and progressing through puppyhood and adolescence to the present day. The behaviourist would be looking for clues to the "cause" of the dog choosing to display the problem behaviour.

It would appear that Shadow has a problem with other dogs and Cesar wanted to see him in action. By far the most common cause of dog to dog aggression is caused by inadequate socialisation during the critical puppy stage. The other cause can be fear caused by our dog being attacked or hurt during an encounter with another dog.

Now go back to the video and imagine that Shadow is fearful of other dogs and that is why he attacks them ( to make them go away). Cesar Millan has caused Shadow severe trauma, and all during the experience there was another dog present! If Shadow wasn't dog aggressive before the session then he would have good reason to start now. He would also have good reason to be fearful of small Hispanic men and may, in future, choose to lunge and bark at any he may see in order to make them "go away".

The modern way to treat Shadow would be to raise his hedonic budget in the presence of other dogs (and now small Hispanic men!). This would involve a long period of socialisation and habituation using anything that makes Shadow happy (food or play for instance) in the presence of dogs. Any dogs would have to be kept at a distance determined by Shadow's perception of "safety" so that he would be relaxed enough to learn. 
*Anxiety prevents learning. *

JoeDenise is much closer to the truth because dogs do not "think" like people but they do have similar emotional responses.

Sorry for the length of post :roll:


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

prety similar to footballers then

DAve P


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

I'm not the expert you are Pat, but I find it helpful to think that dogs simply react . . .

The reaction to a current stimulus has often been pre-conditioned by an earlier experience, and this is where the problems of diagnosis get more difficult.

The trainer has to try to understand what it was in the past that makes the dog react in the way it does to present stimuli.

B F Skinner taught us a lot about Operant Conditioning, and some of his "failed" experiments are the most interesting. When his pigeons didn't respond as he anticipated he sometimes found that they were reacting to an additional stimulus which he hadn't taken into account (or even noticed sometimes) . . . but which the pigeons found very significant.

I think this happens a lot with dogs. They react and respond to stimuli that we are sometimes not even aware of, but the dog certainly is!! If the resultant behaviour is undesirable (in our world that is - not in the dog's) it can be awfully difficult to root out the underlying cause.

A good example is when owners (including me!) say, _"How on earth does that damn dog know when I am thinking of taking her for a walk?"_

She can't read my mind, but she's brilliant at "body language" and picking up other stimuli - so she appears to have second sight.

Would this be somewhere near the truth?

Dave


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## wakk44 (Jun 15, 2006)

Just read this thread and must say how impressed I am with Cesar Milan's dog training techniques.I agree that there is some 'Hollywood'glamour to make the show more watchable.The aggressive dog should have been muzzled whilst training,but it gets more viewing figures when Cesar's shirt is ripped and he suffers some bite wounds.

The overall picture for me is that the dog's aggression was rectified and no doubt it went on to become a good pet.As a previous poster has already said the dog would have been put down if Cesar had failed.

If the animal has to suffer some discomfort to get to a well trained and sociable dog then so be it,surely it is better than the alternative.


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## DTPCHEMICALS (Jul 24, 2006)

Put your tin hat on Steve


dave p


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## littlenell (Aug 1, 2008)

Our world must be so confusing to a dog, where the rules change, expectations are higher, and folk aren't willing to put in the effort. 

Just been watching some of the Stillwell vids, and it is quite scary how much damage is done by not giving a dog clear signals/boundaries...

Dogs "speak" a lot with eyes, subtle ear, and mouth movements; stuff you might not catch it is so quick. Ever taken a picture and then noticed when you look that the dog has licked its lips or yawned....

Watching our two dobes interact, sometimes quite forcefully, our dobe girl puts young lad in his place when needed. Maple does this by pinning him, and by going tight around his neck with her jaws or over his muzzle. If she really means it, he gets a nip on the ear or cheek...and, yes, he has peed a couple of times when he got a proper telling off. So was Maple being cruel.

I don't use any one training method...but cherry pick. I do however realise that the dogs with problems on the CM show are going to have to make good viewing else it would be a pretty dull watch for Mr Joe Public USA.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Tin hats on then? :lol: :lol: 
Oh how National Geographic love people like you Steve. Just dish up a load of old tosh and people will believe it.

Trainers in the eighties were doing stuff like Cesar because they knew no better. If you read an earlier post with quotes from the British Veterinary Association and the article quoted here, from the American equivalant, they are condemning these old fashioned methods.

The most respected dog training organisation in the world is the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT). They do not even allow a dog to *wear* a choke chain let alone be strung up by one. And no the end does not justify the means. Especially when *there is a better way*. Not just a kinder way, a *better* way.

If someone did a follow up on these cases then it would show, as John Fisher found out, that these dogs would be either more aggressive or very depressed.

At best the dog learns to shut itself away from relationships with humans because they cannot be trusted. At worst the dog's fear of our intentions towards him cause him to become even more aggressive. Maybe not that day, or the next, but one day. On that day it may be a child that looks like Cesar Millan, and raises its arms like he did. and all the memories of pain and a near death experience come rushing back......

Dogs don't understand English. They learn by experience.

There are perfectly good, humane, ways to train Shadow not to be aggressive around other dogs. The trouble is they do not make good TV!

As littlenell so rightly says, our world is very confusing to dogs. They do not think like us. Shadow is now a very very confused dog. For all we know he may now be dead. The owners may have copied Cesar and not released pressure soon enough or Shadow may have bitten someone and been euthanased.

If so, I blame Shadow's breeder for selling the dog to owners who allowed him to grow up the way he did, I blame the owners for bringing him up the way they did and then allowing Cesar Millan to hang him until he fainted. The one you can't blame, because he knows no better, is Shadow.

Orf me soapbox now! :lol:


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## Kelcat (Apr 20, 2008)

I've watched this video several times now - & it seems alot of you are getting caught up in the 'drama' of it. I don't see a particularly aggressive husky - I see a husky who's obviously not happy but is in an aqgressive form of play. The technique is, at best poor, at worst yes cruel. But the dog doesn't warrant the treatment. Almost certainly a poor owner has volunteered a dog they struggle to control (most usually with a husky due to too little excercise) in the hope of some celebrity. 
Cesar Milan I can frankly live without - but I'll take Shadow tomorrow.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

This thread won't tempt me to comment on the reasoning or experience contained within it, but I do want to state the fact that Cesar does not claim to be a dog trainer. In many episodes when a dog trainer is needed, he gets a professional trainer in. No, Cesar is much more useful than that.

Dave


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

How would you have dealt with the situation.
Ceaser does get scratched badly. or at least his clothes were torn.
How do you train Shadow?


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## AL8 (Feb 16, 2009)

It just so happens that I've 'taped' CM & Shadow off of the NatGeoWild channel, it was on at 12 noon today. The section of the show given over to Shadow is about 30 mins & goes something like:
Rescue dog, 2 years old, multiple viscous attacks on its owners & other dogs, on death row, CM last chance before death.

The scene shown, and worse, seems to have been a regular occurrence for its owners.

Outcome was that dog seems happier, no longer on death row & they now seem to be a happy family of 2 humans & 2 dogs.

Drastic measures for a drastic situation? Maybe.

Short term pain for long term gain? Again maybe.

Some showboating? Almost certainly.

A positive outcome? Who knows? Do we have to study Shadow for the next 10+ years to see if CM was right or wrong?

If CM cases had even a 10% worsening or failure rate would he have got to where he is?

CM is no spring chicken so there must be plenty of dogs he’s ‘treated’ 10 or more years ago – did they become worse after he left? I really somehow doubt it.

Mostly CM is the dog’s last hope before death, often when many other ‘trainers’ or ‘behaviourists’ seem to have failed.

Hopefully, none of us on here will ever have any need to find out if CM’s techniques work. I’m always amazed that these people have lived with unbelievably bad behaviour for many years before seeking out CM. My hat is taken off to them for sticking with their dog & leaving no stone unturned using before that terminal injection.


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## Rainbow-Chasers (Sep 2, 2008)

I must agree to diagree on the putting your dog on a couch and asking it about it's puppyhood angle. I do agree that much of what you say does have a place, and the word dominance is a word that we humans understand, hence it is used. I cannot say that I have studied wolves and the democracy or how they vote or elect. They work by heirachy for the betterment of the pack - whatever means that takes. I have watched them play and challenge, they are very different behaviours from very intelligent creatures!

I have had alot of experience with Last Chance. A scheme way before we heard about CM! It was even supported by the courts, and was around after the dangerous dogs act came out, actually started by a friend who was an army dog handler. We used natural methods that the dogs understood and they responded well. 

The last three dogs i owned were rehab dogs. The first was solo - a dobermann. Brought in for killing a child - he had problems, would attck passing cars ripping off their door mirrors etc Highly aggressive, but under excercised and tormented. Much was nervous aggression. We were given a 5 Months deadline - He was a success! Turned out to be the loveliest most loving dog!

Next was Toby, Black lab - never seen a viscious lab! again we faced with nervous aggression and security problems. He bit me a few times! Had to avoid eye contact for two weeks solid - look in his direction and he went for the throat! He ended up being harder to crack than the early pit bulls! Took a year, and he learned to trust - and actually became my favourite dog ever - reminded me of a kid with a catapult, always cheeky, always up to something but so rewarding. I recall he used to 'do a runner' to the pitch black campsite nearby in the winter. You would call, he would run up behind you, nip your butt and run off again! Being black you could never see him! Mischeivious and great!

Now we have Lorcan, ( not through that scheme - that finished long ago!)nervous aggressive again (seem to be my pick!) Glens are reknown for being dog aggressive and give no warning of attack. He was easy! Couple of times he challenged, put in place each time. Again he learned very quickly and responded well. I even have to take a few bits of kibble before he eats! 

These we just the ones i took home, but they all responded with the same techniques and were rehomed, none were returned or had further problems. A couple ended up under the needle, sadest of which was sam, a white GSD. Funnily he was fine with me for some reason! But he had been interbred and had a brain tumour - all the litter were hunted down and terminated, the breeder was prosecuted.

Sorry to go on, but just stating that these techniques work - and result in happy, and healthy dogs. They hold no grudge, have no long term memory of the past. They live for today.


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

DTPCHEMICALS said:


> Put your tin hat on Steve
> 
> dave p


I'll have to find mine too, as I agree with Steve, like it or not. :wink:

Jock.


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