# Juddergate. Legal Action Poll.



## erneboy

I am trying to establish how many people who suffer from the dreaded Fiat judder would be willing to consider joining in a group action against Fiat. 

I do not know yet if it is possible for us to take such an action but I am trying to find out. 

Obviously before we actually did anything many matters including cost would need to be clarified. 

For now I am only asking how many of you who are suffering from the juddering would be willing to join in if it looked like a viable and inexpensive option, Alan. 


Mods: Thanks for your help setting this up.

EDIT: COULD I ASK THOSE OF WHO ARE VOTING TO LEAVE A BRIEF REPLY BECAUSE IF YOU DO NOT IT LOOKS LIKE A DEAD POST, MEMBERS READ BUSY POSTS. WE HAVE 13 VOTES AS I WRITE THIS, BUT ONLY 5 REPLIES ARE SHOWING. I THINK VOTES SHOULD COUNT AS REPLIES.

It would be informative if anyone voting no felt able to tell us why.


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## jack01

OK this is your big chance to take the issue to FIAT and virtually put your money where your mouth is. If you are all serious about your concerns regarding your motorhome juddering in reverse then sign in and lets do it.
Individually we have little chance of taking them on. United we do have a stronger case. So vote now to take action.


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## stewartwebr

I'm in for sure. They deserve all we can give them


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## bigfoot

I have an Autotrail Scout on a 3litre X250 the clutch went at 200 miles it was road tested by Fiat in March they have not sent me their findings also it has the 'thump'.Now they are publicly stating there is no problem with the 3litre models.
It will be cold day in Hell before I buy another Fiat or derivative.
I'm in. could we find a legal type like Mike Mansfield Q.C.who would take it up for the glory?


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## GerryD

Fiat are still offering to take mine in once we can agree on a dealership. Until they have been given the chance and attempted a fix then it would not be possible for me to vote.
2.3MJ130
Gerry


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## 38Rover

My 2.3 has had the fix and it's better but it ain't perfect FIAT should be bought to account over the whole fiasco the legal route is the only way.


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## erneboy

GerryD, I appreciate your reservations. There is no question of rushing in to anything. Mine is a 3lt and I have not had the reply from Fiat. I cannot do anything until Fiat do whatever they are going to do although I understand from others that they say the 3.0 does not have a problem. 

At this stage we are only investigating whether people, once they have exhausted any remedies from Fiat, would be willing to join in if said remedies turn out to be ineffective as so far seems to be the case. 

At this stage you would not be committing yourself, merely indicating potential willing. Perhaps bearing all that in mind you could reconsider voting, Regards, Alan. 

All juddergate sufferers should bear this in mind. We understand that Fiat are monitoring these posts. A lack of determination displayed here will reinforce their conviction that if they string us along we will eventually loose heart and give up. Up to now that seems to have been their tactic.


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## monkton

I have cast my vote and would be happy to participate should this thread produce a viable way forward. I have the 3 litre version also (which I understand from posts here, Fiat claims does not have a problem) and apart from the original acknowledgement letter from Fiat, I have heard diddly squat from them. Such is the dismissive nature of their 'customer care.'


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## scept1c

*Juggergate. Legal Action Poll.*

I wholeheartedly support this action poll. My X250 3.0 litre vehicle has the reverse judder problem and I'm very concerned about how Fiat are dealing with the resolution.

I feel that this is the sort of attitude of short term profit and disregard for the future which led to the current credit crunch. What has happened to customer care?


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## 96299

I think now as most probably do, that this seems the natural way to progress and go forward as all the talking is falling on deaf ears, so please count me in. 

steve


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## Wellsgofar

*Juggergate. Legal Action Poll.*

Hi,
Not allowed to vote yet, I need 5 posts, this being the first, Awaiting 1st fix, but don't hold out for success, it's been going on far to long now, action required.
Alan


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## Pusser

Mine is not too bad but it is a principle here and I am in. But don't get C. Blair as she was meant to be doing a Royal Navy thing on Pensions. We all sent money to the solicitors in Bristol and nothing happened other than she bought a flat.  I used to think her mouth had grown because of all the talking she did. Now I think it may be something to do with Tony's wherewithall. 8O


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## bigfoot

I did take legal advice last year when the clutch went I was inform that I did have a case but it would be expensive to prosecute. Corporaet law is a very expensive minefield for one. If one person is successful that then enables others to follow,but each will be an individual case-unity is strength,
Unfortunately in these Fiat cases it is difficult to reject as unfit for purpose.
I amd very surprised,shocked and disgusted that the M/H manufacturers have not taken issue when it first manifested itself. It has been going on for 3 years now. They have been producing a faulty vehicle for this long. Wheist they continued to fob customers off they have still been in production. If they can build them that fast why cant they supply parts in time?
Personally I am also disillisusioned with the attitudes of the various clubs who should be looking after their members interests and the specialist press should have at least aknowledged more than they have.
IT STINKS!!


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## Pusser

bigfoot said:


> I did take legal advice last year when the clutch went I was inform that I did have a case but it would be expensive to prosecute. Corporaet law is a very expensive minefield for one. If one person is successful that then enables others to follow,but each will be an individual case-unity is strength,
> Unfortunately in these Fiat cases it is difficult to reject as unfit for purpose.
> I amd very surprised,shocked and disgusted that the M/H manufacturers have not taken issue when it first manifested itself. It has been going on for 3 years now. They have been producing a faulty vehicle for this long. Wheist they continued to fob customers off they have still been in production. If they can build them that fast why cant they supply parts in time?
> Personally I am also disillisusioned with the attitudes of the various clubs who should be looking after their members interests and the specialist press should have at least aknowledged more than they have.
> IT STINKS!!


That has put the major points down nicely. I presume it is advertising revenue, agency and availability where morals have to come after profit as it did with banks, financial institutions and the BBC.


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## EdsMH

Count me in too as it has taken them months to just reply to my enquiries. 

I have just got the letter saying there is no fault with the 3.0litre but the thump on start up is still there and I get judder mainly on soft ground in reverse. Not as bad as some I have seen and I make a point of avoiding the circumstances that cause the judder whenever I can just because it sounds so awful.

Not a customer focussed organisation in any way, shape or form in my opinion

Ed


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## DAVID32

EdsMH said:


> Count me in too as it has taken them months to just reply to my enquiries.
> 
> I have just got the letter saying there is no fault with the 3.0litre but the thump on start up is still there and I get judder mainly on soft ground in reverse. Not as bad as some I have seen and I make a point of avoiding the circumstances that cause the judder whenever I can just because it sounds so awful.
> 
> Not a customer focussed organisation in any way, shape or form in my opinion
> 
> Ed


Yes i am in to let hope we get the numbers we need to go forwards with this.
Because if we don,t Fiat will do nothing for us and the time has come to stop talking and head to court as a group and give Fiat a good kicking. Also back this up by not buying any more Fiats and boy will that hurt them.


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## camper69

Not having an affected van I cannot vote. Surely any case is aginst the dealer as that is who you bought it from, if new. Or am i not thinking straight.

Derek


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## weldted

*count me in*

Hi all count me in on this I am also waiting for a reply from Fiat but as of yet have not heard and it has been quite a while. I would of thought that Fiat have had long enough to come up with a solution.


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## bigfoot

camper69 said:


> Not having an affected van I cannot vote. Surely any case is aginst the dealer as that is who you bought it from, if new. Or am i not thinking straight.
> 
> Derek


In these dcircumstances the dealer is referring customers back to Fiat as are the m/h builders.


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## skiboycey

count me in though mine doesn't seem too bad, to be honest. Give it some revs and a bit of welly and it doesn't do it.

However the re-sale value has been affected which I know as I hammered the seller using this very problem to get money off. Fiat should have a duty of care to make sure customers don't lose out on a big value purchase.

Regards, Mark


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## pippin

I don't have an affected vehicle - but why is it called JU*GG*ERGATE?

Maybe I haven't been keeping abreast of the situation!

Edit after the thread title was changed from Juggergate to Juddergate so that my comment makes sense even now that the thread title has been corrected!!


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## weldted

*what is juddergate*

If you had one of the effected van, you may experience bad juddering when attempting to reverse up any sort of hill, some judder when pulling away in first especially when hot, the gearbox destroying itself. and it would appear that Fiat have not accepted that their is a problem affecting some of their vans.


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## jack01

Why JUGGERGATE ???? probably cos it's gone t*ts up for a lot of us !!!


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## 96299

pippin said:


> I don't have an affected vehicle - but why is it called JU*GG*ERGATE?
> 
> Maybe I haven't been keeping abreast of the situation!


 :lol:

steve


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## erneboy

There seems to be little support for my suggestion, perhaps the problem is not as widespread as it the number of posts on here would suggest, Alan.


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## 96299

erneboy said:


> There seems to be little support for my suggestion, perhaps the problem is not as widespread as it the number of posts on here would suggest, Alan.


Was only thinking this today. :roll: Come on people, where's the support? We have to do this together.

steve


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## monkton

Wishfull thinking, I know..........................but perhaps all of the others are away on their hols....................juddering up some slope..........or awaiting the breakdown crew with a knackered clutch..................or perhaps just apathetic.


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## Wupert

Chigman said:


> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There seems to be little support for my suggestion, perhaps the problem is not as widespread as it the number of posts on here would suggest, Alan.
> 
> 
> 
> Was only thinking this today. :roll: Come on people, where's the support? We have to do this together.
> 
> steve
Click to expand...

An interesting point would be to find out exactly which range of Motor-homes are affected

i.e Up to 3500 Kgs

Up to 4500 Kgs

Or Above


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## 96299

Wupert said:


> Chigman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There seems to be little support for my suggestion, perhaps the problem is not as widespread as it the number of posts on here would suggest, Alan.
> 
> 
> 
> Was only thinking this today. :roll: Come on people, where's the support? We have to do this together.
> 
> steve
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> An interesting point would be to find out exactly which range of Motor-homes are affected
> 
> i.e Up to 3500 Kgs
> 
> Up to 4500 Kgs
> 
> Or Above
Click to expand...

As far as I'm aware, all the new fiat's are capable of the judder. Remember, the "JUDDER" is just a symptom of the problem, and how many have actually tested for the judder properly, like taking it to a steep hill with a full load on ? Not many I bet.

steve


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## Wupert

Chigman said:


> Wupert said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chigman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> erneboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There seems to be little support for my suggestion, perhaps the problem is not as widespread as it the number of posts on here would suggest, Alan.
> 
> 
> 
> Was only thinking this today. :roll: Come on people, where's the support? We have to do this together.
> 
> steve
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> An interesting point would be to find out exactly which range of Motor-homes are affected
> 
> i.e Up to 3500 Kgs
> 
> Up to 4500 Kgs
> 
> Or Above
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As far as I'm aware, all the new fiat's are capable of the judder. Remember, the "JUDDER" is just a symptom of the problem, and how many have actually tested for the judder properly, like taking it to a steep hill with a full load on ? Not many I bet.
> 
> steve
Click to expand...

I have a Chausson 85 3000 kg and have no probs so far (fingers crossed)

I honestly think that the problem lies with both Fiat and many builders who have seriously overloaded the MH


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## Telbell

Yes-been on hols so just seen the Post- of course I support such action (and you've only to see the many Posts on other threads (and Forums) to see how widespread the problem is.


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## weldted

*gross van weights or Maximum Alowable Mass*

re the weight of van

2008 Swift Bessacar E765P Max Mass 4300kgs. 3000cc X250

Weight of van when clutch went was 4030 kgs as van was still fairly new, 9 weeks old, her indoors had not filled all the cupboards. As we go off for up to ten weeks at a time we are careful about weight, as we have seen when in France vans being weighed, and weight is fuel and fuel is money.

Our max target weight is around 4200kgs when we first set off and as supplies are used up we usually return around 4050. we are lucky where we live there is a weighbridge near us we can use for free. At the end of the day and not wishing to get to legal if the design mam is 4300 if the van is fit for the purpose it was designed for it should do the job within reason. Nowhere in the instruction book does it state that use of the van is restricted by the weight of the load.


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## Wupert

*Re: gross van weights or Maximum Alowable Mass*



weldted said:


> re the weight of van
> 
> 2008 Swift Bessacar E765P Max Mass 4300kgs. 3000cc X250
> 
> Weight of van when clutch went was 4030 kgs as van was still fairly new, 9 weeks old, her indoors had not filled all the cupboards. As we go off for up to ten weeks at a time we are careful about weight, as we have seen when in France vans being weighed, and weight is fuel and fuel is money.
> 
> Our max target weight is around 4200kgs when we first set off and as supplies are used up we usually return around 4050. we are lucky where we live there is a weighbridge near us we can use for free. At the end of the day and not wishing to get to legal if the design mam is 4300 if the van is fit for the purpose it was designed for it should do the job within reason. Nowhere in the instruction book does it state that use of the van is restricted by the weight of the load.


My Chaussson is at least 1000 Kgs lighter than your van

Q Is the gear box the same on all 6 speed manual Fiats?

Wups


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## sennen523

Yes, I'll support this action. I have a X2/50 2.3 and still waiting to hear from FIAT for the "fix". I'm VERY anti-FIAT anyway.
sennen523.


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## longman

I too am awaiting the fix from Fiat but agree in principle to taking joint action, dependent on cost. I had a call from Fiat 4 weeks ago to confirm which dealer would carry out the repair but I have heard nothing since. Thanks for taking the initiative on this.

Andy


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## granneb

*Juddergate*

Hi

I really did promise myself I wouldn't get into this debate, but...............

I have a Fiat chassis MH and pleased with it, yes it judders, but after driving Morris Minors for thirty years, it's certainly better than that, which juddered severely in reverse, even on a flat road.

However my point is, our previous MH was a 2006 Tribute, old design, five speed box and that also juddered, in both directions and in a couple of occasions enveloped any bystanders in clouds of clutch smoke, so is or has there been a problem with all Fiat vehicles.

Graham


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## 108883

Hi all / Juddergate. I have written several times to Fiat. The first time upon taking delivery of my Rapido 7097 in March 2007 when I found it impossible to reverse the back wheels up onto my height blocks without a terrible juddering and burning of the clutch. I compained to Brownhills (Newark) the followng day who said 'Not our problem, talk to Fiat'
I took the van to a Main Agent who said 'Its OK just slip the Clutch'

I again wrote to Fiat in September 2008 and received a card back stating 'At Fiat we take your enquries very seriously. One of our dedicated Customer Relations Team is working on your case and they'll contact you shortly' I have received nothing!

I have just written again (July 6th) enclosing a copy of my previous letter of September 25th 2008. I have received a reply this morning from Fiat with a different Case Number, in which they state in part - 'We have been conducting a through technical review of Motorhomes based on the Fiat Ducato chassis with the 2.2 and 3.0 litre engines. This has been prompted by concerns raised by a number of customers with regard to vibration when reversing'

'We are now in a position to confirm that the performance of these vehicles has been found to be within designed tolerance levels and are happy to advise you , therefore, that no modifcations will be required to your vehicle in this regard' Signed Justin Westnage Customer Relations Supervisor.

So, where do I go from here? Where do any of us go from here?


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## signman

*fiat poll*

we need any 3 litre Fiat owners who have had a clutch replaced 
Fiat will not reimburse us our £1100.00 claiming that they do not have a problem with the 3 litre engine but clearly according to many of us with 3 litre judder faults this CANNOT BE TRUE.

We will need any verifiable evidence to assit our legal case from any 3 litre owners who have had replacements or modifications.


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## signman

*3litre clutch*

good evening Tarmackid.
we will tell you were you go from here . keep your fingers crossed you dont have to reverse up a hill for a few hundred yards to be courtious to an elderly gentlman pulling a caravan. because you will end up with a burnt out clutch which needs a replacement .....along with a hefty bill £1100.00


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## linal

Hi you can count me in. I also havn't heard from Fiat since they sent me my case no. months ago.

Alex.


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## 96299

*Re: fiat poll*



signman said:


> we need any 3 litre Fiat owners who have had a clutch replaced
> Fiat will not reimburse us our £1100.00 claiming that they do not have a problem with the 3 litre engine but clearly according to many of us with 3 litre judder faults this CANNOT BE TRUE.
> 
> We will need any verifiable evidence to assit our legal case from any 3 litre owners who have had replacements or modifications.


This guy has had clutch and gearbox replaced on his 3l burstner argos, only trouble is, he dont post that often to tell us more about it. I have pm'd him but no joy as yet. Read his post HERE where he touches on it. 8O

steve


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## tony50

erneboy said:


> I am trying to establish how many people who suffer from the dreaded Fiat judder would be willing to consider joining in a group action against Fiat.
> 
> I do not know yet if it is possible for us to take such an action but I am trying to find out.
> 
> Obviously before we actually did anything many matters including cost would need to be clarified.
> 
> For now I am only asking how many of you who are suffering from the juddering would be willing to join in if it looked like a viable and inexpensive option, Alan.
> 
> Mods: Thanks for your help setting this up.
> 
> EDIT: COULD I ASK THOSE OF WHO ARE VOTING TO LEAVE A BRIEF REPLY BECAUSE IF YOU DO NOT IT LOOKS LIKE A DEAD POST, MEMBERS READ BUSY POSTS. WE HAVE 13 VOTES AS I WRITE THIS, BUT ONLY 5 REPLIES ARE SHOWING. I THINK VOTES SHOULD COUNT AS REPLIES.
> HI there didn't get aawy as soon as I thought I have looked at your brief to others , and as I thought , lots of people are moaning , I make it only 12 say they are interested , if there isn't a lot more interested ,I think it's going to be a non-starter Fiat in court would say "only 12 complaints ?? "out a production of possibly 100s if not 1000s of chassis produced, all I can say is to those with the problem save your money for new gearboxes / new clutches (burnt out clutches are usually classed as ("cockpit trouble "(driver ) ,) and don't think the dealers won't hit you hard when and if you exchange the vehicle .(they are not fools ) as I said on the forum before the dealer who sold the vehicle is the first point of call under the "Sale of goods act " I think if anyone has gone to a Fiat dealer or whoever they have let the selling dealer (perhaps legally off the hook ) I will be in touch on return .Regards Tony.
> It would be informative if anyone voting no felt able to tell us why.


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## Ebby

I will support group action. I have had all the modifications,engine mountings helped slightly on a level surface but still juddered on an incline,the new lower gear/clutch etc as made our X250 2.3 worse it still judders and the clutch now snatches causing the van to jump as well as judder. It was road tested today by Fiat technicians and they asked me to leave it at the Fiat dealers to be stripped down again to investigate.I dont think our problem will be solved without fitting a different designed gearbox.


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## erneboy

Hello, found the post from travelsRus, its in generic hints and tips, he just mentions that he had a new clutch and gearbox in the intro to another topic, no details. If you have sent him a PM that is about all I can think of. Sorry I do not know how to put the link for the topic in here but you can find all his posts by searching the forums under his username, Regards, Alan.


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## 96299

erneboy said:


> Hello, found the post from travelsRus, its in generic hints and tips, he just mentions that he had a new clutch and gearbox in the intro to another topic, no details. If you have sent him a PM that is about all I can think of. Sorry I do not know how to put the link for the topic in here but you can find all his posts by searching the forums under his username, Regards, Alan.


Alan-there is a link to it 4 posts up.

steve

ps... Have recieved pm from him and I've asked him to post in the main judder thread. It could take time though as he doesn't seem to log on all that often.

steve


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## travelsRus

Sorry I thought we did plenty of 'posts' but have had so many problems with new vehicle didn't realise others were having same problems. Gearbox crashed after 1,000 miles so had it recovered to Doncaster from Ferrybridge. Recovery vehicle caused damage to intercooling pipes and some other stuff so it had to be taken to Stoke to be repaired. 17months later (9,000 miles) clutch burnt out on way to Whitby. Recovered nr Malton - spent night in garage forecourt and then towed to Hull for repair. Had to hire car from Hull to Sheffield - home address. 
Not very happy and losing confidence every time we hit a steep hill.
Reversing is still a problem unless you go faster than first gear which is ok if a clear run. Registered complaint with fiat who are sending us a letter stating no problem with 3l. 
We want to go to Italy/Swtizerland and Austria for 4 months next year but are seriously thinking of swopping vehicles although we love the Argos (inside).
Graham and Chris


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## zulurita

I support your stance in principal.

My Auto-Trail cheyenne 660 bought Nov 2007 has had the judder problem since NEW. I am lucky in that I have now covered over 9,000 miles and have travelled up some steep passes in France (forwards though).

However I am constantly worrying about reversing and have had several instances of juddering on gravel, grass and Tarmac. The inclines haven't been particularly steep. On a recent gravel surface it felt bad.

I am fortunate in that Fiat have agreed modification work and in fact the motorhome is going in to my dealers on Monday.

My only worry now is: 

1. Will the work be carried out satisfactorily?

2. Will it improve the reversing or make it worse?

3. Will there be other problems as a consequence of this work? 

4. Will they remember to put oil in the gearbox or make sure the gearbox is NOT leaking oil?

5. Will there be a Whine in 2nd gear? 

Such things have been reported!

So fingers crossed all will be well! After all I have plans already booked for rest of the summer and Autumn and beyond. After all that is why I bought a motorhome in the first place, to use!


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## 96299

Hi

Just to say that i took my van for it's second service today, and while I was there I had another judder test done, well two dealerships is better than one  It still judders by the way. The dealer wanted to order the gear to rectify it there and then but I told him there was nothing wrong with the 3 L so dont bother. :roll: 

Still, if fiat say there's nothing wrong with it who am i to argue :? 

steve


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## 96299

travelsRus said:


> Sorry I thought we did plenty of 'posts' but have had so many problems with new vehicle didn't realise others were having same problems. Gearbox crashed after 1,000 miles so had it recovered to Doncaster from Ferrybridge. Recovery vehicle caused damage to intercooling pipes and some other stuff so it had to be taken to Stoke to be repaired. 17months later (9,000 miles) clutch burnt out on way to Whitby. Recovered nr Malton - spent night in garage forecourt and then towed to Hull for repair. Had to hire car from Hull to Sheffield - home address.
> Not very happy and losing confidence every time we hit a steep hill.
> Reversing is still a problem unless you go faster than first gear which is ok if a clear run. Registered complaint with fiat who are sending us a letter stating no problem with 3l.
> We want to go to Italy/Swtizerland and Austria for 4 months next year but are seriously thinking of swopping vehicles although we love the Argos (inside).
> Graham and Chris


Graham and Chris-thanks for posting this. your story sounds like a complete nightmare 8O Dont know how it happened though, as there is nothing wrong with the 3L version. :roll: Good luck

steve


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## erneboy

Just thought I would give this a bump in the hope that there might be some more interested owners out there, Alan.


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## adgy

Still waiting for Fiat to inspect and hopefully rectify my van.

If it dosnt improve then count me in....................

Cheers


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## wobby

Mine is a 5000kg chassis with a train weight of 6000kg running on a Fiat 3 lte
there is judder in reverse, unless I reverse with the clutch fully engaged, but then I'm travelling to fast. 

So I'm in if a QC thinks we have a chance.

However I think hell will freeze over before Fiat admit to a recall fault. I once said on this forum, Manufacturers were only interested in one thing, profit, got shot down for that by several members, Its still my view.

Wobby


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## erneboy

Wobby, mine too is a 3lt, 5,000kg and it judders every time I move off regardless whether it is forwards or backwards and regardless of surface, yours does not sound as bad as mine. Just by way of comparison does yours judder moving off forwards, Alan.


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## Rosbotham

Since mine's on a Peugeot and with minimal judder, I've got no axe to grind.

However, I would be interested to hear if anyone's sought detailed legal advice on this, because per a posting early in this thread, it seems to me that the liability falls with the dealer, or at best with the MH manufacturer.

I recognise that both dealers and manufacturers are referring owners onto Fiat because that's the most likely means of a fix, but that's quite different to legal liability.

If you buy a TV from Argos and it doesn't work, your legal avenue is to sue Argos, not Sony and certainly not an internal component manufacturer. Is there something specific about motorhomes which changes that legal basis? I'm not a lawyer so honestly don't know.

Incidentally, if I was a dealer and had to settle a legal claim, I'd onward sue the MH builder. If I was the MH builder, I'd sue Fiat. However, I don't _believe_ I could step out of the chain and insist it was nothing to do with me so the claimant should sue directly. Perhaps someone who knows could clarify?


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## 96299

erneboy said:


> Wobby, mine too is a 3lt, 5,000kg and it judders every time I move off regardless whether it is forwards or backwards and regardless of surface, yours does not sound as bad as mine. Just by way of comparison does yours judder moving off forwards, Alan.


Hi Alan

I would just like to add here that mine only judders in reverse. My dealer has known of vans that have juddered in first gear though.

steve


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## Telbell

> Is there something specific about motorhomes which changes that legal basis?


Fiat has admitted a design fault. Is that the clue? :wink:


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## Rosbotham

Telbell said:


> Is there something specific about motorhomes which changes that legal basis?
> 
> 
> 
> Fiat has admitted a design fault. Is that the clue? :wink:
Click to expand...

But where is your contract with Fiat for the purchase of anything? Let's go back to my TV analogy. Sony's manufacturer of power supplies admits there was a design fault that renders the TV likely to fail. Who would have the legal responsibility to remedy...the power supply manufacturer, Sony or Argos. My understanding - as an engineer not a lawyer - is that it would be Argos's issue and for them to deal with the fallout with their suppliers.


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## wobby

erneboy said:


> Wobby, mine too is a 3lt, 5,000kg and it judders every time I move off regardless whether it is forwards or backwards and regardless of surface, yours does not sound as bad as mine. Just by way of comparison does yours judder moving off forwards, Alan.


Hi erneboy.
Pulling away is not to much of a problem, if I pull away very slowly it's very smooth., but in a hurry then not quite so smooth. On a hill I would have to take greater care especially when towing our Smart car and a very steep hill is a no no as I would have to ride the clutch. It's very unfortunate really because otherwise Fiats engine is brilliant.

I've tried a Renault van fully load with concrete block, in fact overloaded, and it pulled away and reversed as smooth as silk on a steep hill in the Dordogne.


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## Jezport

I enquired at the Swift agent at the Pickering show, he assured me that he had never had a van with a problem, think he was talking out his :badairday:


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## Briarose

Jezport said:


> I enquired at the Swift agent at the Pickering show, he assured me that he had never had a van with a problem, think he was talking out his :badairday:


 HMMN theres a lot of that about :wink: also a lot of folk seem to get a' Bee' in their bonnett :roll:


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## weldted

*how about*

why don't all the people with the judder problem e mail [email protected] on the same day say August the 1st to see if they take any notice this time. They are back on in the Autumn so they have got time to research it?


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## locovan

Briarose said:


> Jezport said:
> 
> 
> 
> I enquired at the Swift agent at the Pickering show, he assured me that he had never had a van with a problem, think he was talking out his :badairday:
> 
> 
> 
> HMMN theres a lot of that about :wink: also a lot of folk seem to get a' Bee' in their bonnett :roll:
Click to expand...

Every Bee has a Judder in his tail watch you dont get stung Jezport


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## Telbell

> But where is your contract with Fiat for the purchase of anything?...........


Firstly- We should remind ourselves that Fiat monitor the Forum :wink:

Secondly- Nor do I speak/write as a lawyer .....that's why the O.P.is suggesting in the first instance getting some advice. But the fact remains that any supplier of goods (not just seller) has a duty of care at common Law and by implication the supplier in this (the manufacturer? ) seems to have fallen short in this respect.

Thirdly- as I understand things-there's nothing to stop action being taken aaginst, for example, a dealer and then adding a third party to the action (a manufacturer?).

But as I say- that's what the Poll is all about isn't it?


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## Rosbotham

I'd have thought Fiat would be able to afford their own legal advice rather than getting ideas from me...

My only point is that prior to going to too much effort getting a group action together, might be worth someone who has lawyer friends checking the legal basis. Or visiting the local CAB.


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## MikeCo

I don't wish to put the dampers on this but having had the work done by Fiat I find that their solution, in my case anyway does work.


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## carolgavin

Rosbotham said:


> I'd have thought Fiat would be able to afford their own legal advice rather than getting ideas from me...
> 
> My only point is that prior to going to too much effort getting a group action together, might be worth someone who has lawyer friends checking the legal basis. Or visiting the local CAB.


The legal basis is quite simple, its provided for under the sale of goods act. This is what you would rely on when raising an action.


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## Jezport

AFAIK Your contract is with the company which supplied the (unfit for purpose) item, be it a £30K or a £1 item. It is your supplier who has sold you a faulty item, therefore I think you may need to direct your action towards them.


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## erneboy

Just to clarify. 

1. None of us wants to take any kind of action, we all just want the judder fixed. In the absence of a solution we may be forced to see if we can take the matter further. 

2. I am trying to see if there would be support before taking legal advice, there is no point approaching lawyers to discuss a group action if there is insufficient support for such an action. 

3. Exactly where liability might lie or whether Fiat could be our target will be a matter for lawyers if there is sufficient support. 

4. Nothing could be done till Fiat have been given every opportunity to fix the problem. 


Please do not hijack this thread with arguments about where liability would lie, we are well aware that there is an issue, Alan.


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## weldted

*clutch judder*

Hi all just got of the phone to Fiat Customer Care re my 3 litre X25 01/03/08 to see what was happening following a test drive by my local Fiat dealer arranged by Fiat, to be told they would *reopen*my case and gave me a new case number and someone would be in touch. Is it the case that if you do not chase them they hope you will give up?


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## erneboy

Hello Welted, I do not know, I have been emailing every month or so but get no reply. Mine is also a 3lt, so I am encouraged that they are reopening your case since others have been told there is no problem with that model. I will email again today, Alan.


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## MikeCo

I mentioned earlier that my 2.3 was dealt with and appears to be fixed but the garage man did mention that they had also worked on the 3 L version as well.


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## weldted

*juddergate*

Hi Fiat UK have just telephoned me and state that they have no knowledge of the report re the Fiat Dealers test drive/report. They state that there is no fix for the 3litre engine as they do not recognise that there is a problem?? They have now telephoned my Fiat dealer to request a copy of the report for them to send on to Fiat Italy, this is the same report that they were going to send to Fiat Italy in may. I telephoned my local Fiat dealer who has been more than supportive to find out that they had sent the test drive report to Fiat UK on the 15th of May but were going to send another one today. As I have said previously if you do not shout no one listens. So I would suggest all those waiting to here from Fiat contact them to see what is happening.


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## jack01

To all interested 3 litre owners.

I have today received a letter advising me that there is no modification for the 3 litre version, since in Fiat's opinion there is not a fault. 

I have been given the opportunity to take the vehicle to a Fiat Dealership ( for the third time ) and Fiat will arrange for a technician to test drive it. I am not allowed to be in the presence of the technician, nor discuss any salient points with him. Neither will I be able to read or see his report.

I will then be advised (again) that there is no fault with my motorhome, and that the judder is in my imagination. 

I want to be able demonstrate to the technician how and when the judder occurs, but because he is not trained in "people interaction" I am not allowed to speak to him. I would also like to discuss with a technician the reasoning behind their conclusion that "yes, there is a judder with the 2.3, and no, there is not a judder with the 3 litre". Same transmission ? same set up ? more power maybe, but not significant at 1300 revs.---different conclusion. 
I have driven many vehicles of all sizes and shapes, and I know how to operate a clutch. So I think I have enough experience to know whether a vehicle has a juddering fault or not.

This juddering issue has changed from initially there being no fault, to now being restricted to the 2.3 engine. Being a cynic I suspect that it is now related to a sales/marketing matter. Most vehicles are specified with the 2.3 engine, and by inference, represent the highest percentage of units sold. Failing to address the judder in 3 litre models will have less impact on future sales, whereas if Fiat fail to address the judder on 2.3 engines, they have realised that they will lose sales to Iveco ,Renault and Mercedes.

I am happy for all 2.3 owners who have had, or will get, a modification. It appears from reading the comments that it seems to have cured the judder. 
I am however frustrated that, despite Fiat knowing that the same fault exists in the 3 litre version, they are prepared to cast aside those of us who have invested a huge amount of cash in a duff product. I hope the decision makers rot in hell.

Jack01


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## Telbell

Hmm-Interesting jack!

Keep that letter in pristine condition. May be required in the future for some adjudicating body to make a decision as to Fiat;'s responsibility in all this.

Perhaps time for yet another thread on this-this time just for 3 litre owners?


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## erneboy

Telbell, I like your 3lt post idea, why not go for it so we can try to find out how many of us there are. I know there was a speadsheet for all owners but I cannot find it, although it looks as though only the 3lt owners will be left out in the cold, Alan.


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## Telbell

I've PM'd Jack 01

Database here
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-36202-0.html

Leave it with me


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## erneboy

Just had Fiat on the phone saying that they have no modifications for the 3lt, but I should take my van to a dealer for evaluation. So at least they did not tell me there is not a problem. I will keep you informed, Alan.


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## javea

erneboy said:


> Just had Fiat on the phone saying that they have no modifications for the 3lt, but I should take my van to a dealer for evaluation. So at least they did not tell me there is not a problem. I will keep you informed, Alan.


Alan, be careful, they offered me the same but when I asked for their guarante that they would put right any damage caused to the clutch or gearbox as a result of their test they refused to honour any such problem.

They have also written to me on a number of occasions saying that they have carried out tests and there is no problem with the 3.0l variant.

We all know that isn't true but you can't get the truth from that bunch.

Mike


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## Telbell

WE've strayed so far off the thread title now that it's hard to recollect what it was about.

Remember the main thread for the Fiat issues is here:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-43588-database.html
but there are others :roll:

I've PM' d jack01 suggesting he does start a new "3 litre" thread with his letter from Fiat pasted.

In the meantime if the Post isn't "Poll" related can you all put it on main thread? (yes I know I'm as bad :wink: )

BTW I've counted fourteen affected 3litre owners according to Catherine,s Spreadsheet- though last entry was May.


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## carolgavin

Telbell said:


> BTW I've counted fourteen affected 3litre owners according to Catherine,s Spreadsheet- though last entry was May.


Guys please remember that the spreadsheet was started due to scuttlegate and was never meant to be for judder. I added a column to the spreadsheet when it became apparent that many owners were having a problem.
We can only add to it if members give us their details. Link to spreadsheet below.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pAEVt64jPXtRWMrFlbwFzDw

If anyone wants their details added please PM me with them so I can add them as I don't think catherine is around at the mo.


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## erneboy

Yes Telbell, you are right. I will post this sort of thing on the main thread. I have no objection to the mods moving it if they feel that would be the thing to do. If not I will post my recent info. there at the weekend, Alan.


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## Bubblehead

I have a 3 lt Fiat that clunks on start up and judders in reverse. The clutch smells even when reversing onto a gravel pitch - when are Fiat going to accept that there is a problem. 

Andy


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## Telbell

> when are Fiat going to accept that there is a problem.


When enough 3litre owners with a problem post it on the "3litre" thread? Perhaps "Fiat UK" might then take notice?

(or might not :roll: )


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## wobby

I have met a number of 3 Ltr owners various makes of motor home who have not complained because they say its a waste of time? So there are more of us, but it some cases they cant be bothered! Sadly I think they are right, Fiat will just weather this in the hopes it will disappear, its typical of large companies.

Wobby


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## mauriceheather1

*juddergate legal*

Hi Please count me in. I have a burstner 821. with the 3.0ltr engine. it has had the judders from day one and the smell of the clutch burning. 
It has been tested by service manager at chelston motorhomes who agrees. but fiat still say that there is no problem with the 3.0ltr .


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## 126365

*Judder in reverse*

Hi, I don't know if I am the lucky one!! but I have a 3.0lt Swift which was new in June this year and does not judder at all. Is this a problem that just happens or does it come on over a period of time. I have done 900 miles so far!!! interesting..


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## mauriceheather1

*juddergate legal*

Why don't we have a rally,we could call it the fiat juddergate rally, we all meet somewhere like windsor park which is just the other side of the m4 
from slough. then we all go in convour and stop outside fiat head office 
We tell them in advance of our intentions and that we will be informing 
all the national press, trade mags, and tv etc."That should make them sit up" What do you guys think. cheers maurice


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## jack01

There are 80 members who have voted in favour of some sort of action in an attempt to get Fiat to acknowledge that there IS ALSO a problem with the 3 litre version, and to provide us with a modification.

Readers of MMM will no doubt have seen Fiat's regular double page advertisement extolling the virtues of the 3 litre 160 multijet and partcularly how it "DRIVES WELL UPHILL". NOT IN REVERSE IT DOESN'T. Not mine anyway.

The cost of a double page MMM advert exposing the downside of the 3 litre, and Fiat's intransigence towards it's customers, is approx £4K or £50 each. It might be money well spent , or wasted !!!!! , but since I have already spent £Thousands what the hell.

Jack


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## erneboy

Jack, I doubt very much if any magazine would run an advertisement which is critical of a major customer but there is no harm in finding out if you would like to discuss it with them. You would then have to start a poll or pm 3lt owners to see if they would support it, Alan.


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## DustyR

I have voted yes in the Poll , I have 2.2ltr version 5 speed and despite my local Fiat dealer telling me there is no problem with reverse judder, we experienced it for the first time recently just reversing on level gravel. I have registered with Fiat and have received the the standard letter. Although the number of times we might experience the judder may be small ,that is not the point, if there is a basic design flaw then it must be corrected, so count me IN.


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## DustyR

I have voted yes in the Poll , I have 2.2ltr version 5 speed and despite my local Fiat dealer telling me there is no problem with reverse judder, we experienced it for the first time recently just reversing on level gravel. I have registered with Fiat and have received the the standard letter. Although the number of times we might experience the judder may be small ,that is not the point, if there is a basic design flaw then it must be corrected, so count me IN.


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## petepub

Yes. Count me in. It cannot be right that the motor and Motorhome trade can get away with this


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## 108883

*Juddergate*

Hi peoples'

It would be worth £50 to do something positive and collectively re the problem. Fiat may then realise that they too have a problem with customers, who really are worried about their vehicles and disgusted with their attitude towards customers.

So keep it going and count me in.


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## Rabbiteer

I have a Timberland Destiny built on a LWB Ducatto 160 multijet and manual g'box. In 9 months and 5,000 miles we [3 different drivers] have reversed up all sorts of hills and slopes and I dont think we have ever had any judder. 
Nor, in passing, any problem with the vehicle of any sort.

Guess we are very fortunate however after a test wheel change session I bought a 2ft lever and socket to get the wheel nuts off as even after loosening and tightening them to the correct torque with a posh torque wrentch I could not shift them with the supplied tools which didnt give me enough leverage.


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## erneboy

I have just emailed the BBC Watchdog programme giving details of my juddering problem and requesting help. Would any others who have the dreaded judder please also email them as we are told it takes a good number of similar complaints to get them to act, Alan. 

Edit: Apologies if you see this message more than once, I am putting it on the three related threads in the hope of getting people to join in, Alan.


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## sarahessex

I would also like to add my support to this thread. We also have the dreaded Fiat judder on our 3 litre engine - visibly noticeable even on the flat. I am awaiting a response from Customer Services, so we will see.
Sarah


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