# Car Park - definition or Caravan / Motor Caravan.



## Corkheader (Aug 25, 2008)

I have been parking my van in a local authority car park of and on for the past year. Today I returned to find a seventy pound fixed penalty notice on the van. The offence code indicates its a vehicle of a class prohibited from using the car park. 

On the board adjacent to the ticket machine it lists HGV's, overnight parking and Caravans. I am assuming that the warden is classing a motorhome as a caravan. 

I can find reference to housing covenants on here but not this particular issue. 

The van had a valid ticket and fits into the bay markings. 

Has anyone had a similar issue / can anyone advise me on the local authority definition of a caravan, does it include a motor caravan and if it is worth appealing against the notice.

Thanks


John


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Certainly worth appealing, apparently more than 50% of those who do are successful. 

Take a pic of the board display, photocopy your V5 for vevicle classification and possibly even the VED disc showing what tax class it fits into.

Good luck, and do let us know a) where this park is,
b) how you get on.

Good luck,

Dave


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## Mike48 (May 1, 2005)

First and foremost a motorhome is a licensed road vehicle. However, local authorities might try to rely on this definition. 

Section 29 (1) of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 defines a caravan by reference to it being,

"....... any structure designed or adapted for human habitation that is capable of being moved from one place to another."

However this is a definition relating to sites and development control so I would object as mentioned previously.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

I can also offer

LGFA 1988: "Caravan means any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted, " 

then follows a list of exceptions none of which concern a motorhome.


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## wakk44 (Jun 15, 2006)

Bad luck,sounds like you have had an encounter with the local jobsworth traffic warden. :roll:

If you were within the parking bays and had a valid ticket displayed then I can't see a problem and it is certainly worth appealing.

When you say'' *vehicle of a class prohibited from using the car park. *'' I assume you were not parked overnight,it sounds like the local authority are trying to discourage overnight camping in caravans.

If you were parked overnight then you could be on shaky ground and struggle with an appeal,even with a valid ticket as the m/home is obviously designed to be used overnight,and would be lumped together with caravans by the local authority.

Incidentally the criteria for using car parks is generally no vehicle over 3.5 tons.


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## DustyR (Jan 26, 2009)

I would definitely appeal on this one. I had same fine when parking in a pay and display car park, I noticed other MH's parked in larger bays so we joined them, then we all got tickets from a over zealos warden.
It took me several months of writing to many different departments, but in the end we got our fine reimbursed, and now the car park information board has now been updated with much clearer details as to parking information for MH's.
Incidentally our 'crime' was that we parked in a bay only meant for caravans & trailers.


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## Corkheader (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks for the replies.

I wasn't parked overnight and the GVW is 3500KG. 

I'll give it a try and let you know how I get on.

Thanks


John


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Not to hijack your thread John, but there is a very similar confusion about where to park on motorway service stations.

The signs often say "Caravans" but I don't recall ever seeing a notice specifying Motorhomes.

However, I have heard of a number of cases of motorhomes being fined for parking in the caravan bays! :roll: 

The authorities can't have it both ways surely!!

If your motorhome warrants a fine for parking where a caravan should not be, then that classes it as a caravan . . . which should therefore be permitted to park in the caravan bays of a service station.

Dave :?


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## TR5 (Jun 6, 2007)

I complained to Newark council about all car parks having height barriers, and was told that I was allowed to park in the Lorry park, on the edge of the town, AND could stay overnight, if I wished.

I pointed out that the notice on the site says NO CARAVANS and NO OVERNIGHT PARKING FOR CARAVANS, although trucks are allowed to stay overnight.
I was then told that the council would not consider a motorhome to be a caravan, and I could park there, and if I wished I could stay overnight. There is a small fee for overnight parking, I believe.

On this basis, I would protest against the ticket issued.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Hi Corkheader and others.
Might like to see how much the councils rake in parking fines.

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/parkingfines.pdf

Ray.


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## trackerman (Aug 16, 2005)

Earlier this year I contacted Weymouth Council asking where to park as the on-line information stated "no caravans" in their car parks. I had a most helpful reply which informed me that this did not apply to motorcaravans/motorhomes.

Stuart


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

A motorhome could be referred to as a motorcaravan and would then come under caravan parking rules.
I think that it is a matter of interpretation by different councils.
But try the appeal and good luck

http://www.google.co.uk/search?clie...ce=hp&q=motorcaravan&meta=&btnG=Google+Search


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## arturusuk (May 27, 2005)

I think that the similarity between motorhomes and caravans is only under "campsite" legislatsion.
As far as parking goes---both on-road and in carparks I have a feeling that it is the Road Trafic Act that is the legislation. This classifies motorhomes and caravans very differently. It is neither a caravan nor an HGV.
An appeal should be made.
Regards BrianM


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## hightop (Nov 28, 2009)

Corkheader said:


> I have been parking my van in a local authority car park of and on for the past year. Today I returned to find a seventy pound fixed penalty notice on the van. The offence code indicates its a vehicle of a class prohibited from using the car park.
> 
> On the board adjacent to the ticket machine it lists HGV's, overnight parking and Caravans. I am assuming that the warden is classing a motorhome as a caravan. I can find reference to housing covenants on here but not this particular issue. The van had a valid ticket and fits into the bay markings. Has anyone had a similar issue / can anyone advise me on the local authority definition of a caravan, does it include a motor caravan and if it is worth appealing against the notice.ThanksJohn


It doesn't look good John

Council Tax Manual - Practice Note 7: Appendix B - Definition of Caravan
Practice Note 7: Appendix B - Definition of Caravan

A caravan is defined in section 66(7) of the LGFA 1988 by reference to Part I of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960. That Act, as amended, by S.13 of The Caravan Sites Act 1968, provides that:

"Caravan" means any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted, but does not include:-

(1) any railway rolling stock which is for the time being on rails forming part of a railway system, or

(2) any tent, or

(3) a structure designed or adapted for human habitation which:

(a) is composed of not more than two sections separately constructed and designed to be assembled on a site by means of bolts, clamps or other devices; and

(b) is, when assembled, physically capable of being moved by road from one place to another (whether by being towed or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer),

if its dimensions when assembled exceed any of the prescribed limits.

Prescribed size limits:

Pre 01/10/ 2006:

Length excluding drawbar 60 feet (18.288 metres), width 20 feet (6.096 metres), internal height 10 feet (3.048 metres)

Post 01/10/06 : (SI 2006 2374)

Length excluding drawbar 20 metres length, 6.8 metres width and 3.05 metres internal height.

A structure falling within heads 3(a) and 3(b) above is not, however, treated as not being a caravan for those purposes by reason only that it cannot be lawfully be so moved on a highway when assembled.

Comment: The legislation must be read carefully as it is easy to misunderstand. In particular in must be noted that the definition is only exclusive, if the structure exceeds the size limits. Otherwise it will qualify.

Further guidance and interpretation of the requirements of these statutory provisions can be obtained from reading the decision of the Lands Tribunal in Atkinson ( VO) v Foster and Others 1996 RA 249


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Caravan" *means any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted*, but does not include:-

Thats the crunch, being moved. A motorhome moves itself and as such is a self propelled vehicle, a caravan is NOT.

Peter


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## arturusuk (May 27, 2005)

I notice that the o/p is in Hampshire. I don't know whether any of the info on Graham Hadfield's sit will be of help.---but it could be worth a look to find a way forward.
http://www.motorhomeparking.co.uk/ham.htm
Regards
BrianM


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I agree with Peter's distinction about method of moving and anyway that definition is in legislation covering Caravan Sites and Development.

Also any other interpretation would also make HGVs and horseboxes with beds, i.e. adapted for habitation be included in Caravan

Geoff


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

so what does 
'*any motor vehicle so designed or adapted*' 
mean then?


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

Zebedee said:


> Not to hijack your thread John, but there is a very similar confusion about where to park on motorway service stations.
> 
> The signs often say "Caravans" but I don't recall ever seeing a notice specifying Motorhomes.
> 
> ...


You raise a good point that is always bugging us as we travel.
On a Service staion is it ok that we park with the lorries then.
You cant park in the car section as we are to big and we never know whether we should be in the Caravan Section or if we are ok in the lorry park.
It just doesnt give a place for motorhomes.


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

Hi Mavis,

Must admit I have scratched my head over that one and when I got in the 'caravan section' it was no different bay wise to the car park section.

Just parked and bought me burger and coffee!.

Peter


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## locovan (Oct 17, 2007)

Well if you are puzzled then I have no chance :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Enjoy your burger :wink:


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## bigfoot (May 16, 2005)

I would strongly reccomend checking the validity of the PCN with this site
www.pepipoo.com


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## JohnsCrossMotorHomes (Jul 21, 2007)

locovan said:


> Well if you are puzzled then I have no chance :lol: :lol: :lol:
> Enjoy your burger :wink:


Hi Mavis,

I do if I can get one, last time I went in one on the M25 at 5 mins to 10 the Wimpy was closing and refused to serve me, ended up with a Costa Coffee and some ham and cheese thingy out of Smiths.

Must admit found the staffs attitude in both shops was rather off putting to say the least.

Had the coffee and eats in the van.............. then back on me way down to Sussex and overnight in a Kontiki on the forecourt :lol:

Peter


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## thePassants (Feb 9, 2009)

sallytrafic said:


> so what does
> '*any motor vehicle so designed or adapted*'
> mean then?


I'm with you on this one Frank:

A motorhome is a van (motor vehicle) which has been 'so designed or adapted' ie for habitation.

and so is defined as a caravan by that definition.

Still worth appealing though, even if you loose; you still only have to pay the fine, so worth a try.


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## Pyranha (Jul 4, 2006)

sallytrafic said:


> so what does
> '*any motor vehicle so designed or adapted*'
> mean then?


But, is that definition relevant? The heading in the quote suggested it was a definition for council tax purposes (possibly to decide whether something is a 'residence' and thus taxable?) - it would be necessary to see how the law, or by-law, for that car park defines a caravan. I would doubt that whoever gave you the ticket knows the definitions much better than you do, so appeal.


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## Mike48 (May 1, 2005)

Just to throw in an alternative suggestion.

The term caravan can mean many things but it boils down to what "the caravan" is being used for at the point the offence is committed.

It seems to me that as "the caravan" (motorhome) was being used as a licensed road vehicle and parked approporiately, the definition of whether a motorhome is a caravan becomes irrelevant.

As a licensed road vehicle there could be nothing to prevent a licensed road vehicle from parking in a car park. However, if you were sleeping in the "caravan" (motorhome) you would be using it as a caravan and at that point it could be argued that an offence had taken place.

I would definitely appeal. There is a sufficient grey area to enable you to succeed if for no other reason than the situation is unclear. If the local authority wanted to specifically ban motorhomes they should have said so on the signage in the car park.


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Parking*

Bloody jobsworth.

Don't it annoy you. I May have mentioned this before but here it is again.

Gypsies (which we are plagued with here) took over one of our local council car parks. They hooked up to the street lighting and dumped their dead dogs and rubbish everywhere as usual. The police were nowhere to be seen or the council officials whilst they held nightly drum fires.

Very few people dared to use what remained of the car park, but those that did and failed to buy a ticket, were booked and fined for not doing so!

UN BLOODY BELIEVABLE


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## Corkheader (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks all for the info. Seem to have opened a can of worms with this one.. 

I am familiar with the Road Traffic Act, the local planning regulations are another matter. I have written to the Borough Council, summarising the advice on here, I will let you know the result.

It does seem odd when we have national definitions under the Road Traffic Act and local Borough Councils can post ambiguous legislation on notice boards that catches us out.

Thanks

John


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Difference is that National laws are drafted by Parliamentary Draughtsmen, who have considerable skills-but even then both Houses muck the Draft Bills about without referring them baclk for skilled redrafting.

Local Authorities do not have the same level of expertise in the first place.

Sometimes the Local Authority exceed the powers granted to them by Parliament, but tracing the train is tedious.

Geoff


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## hightop (Nov 28, 2009)

*Re: Parking*



teemyob said:


> Bloody jobsworth.Don't it annoy you. I May have mentioned this before but here it is again.Gypsies (which we are plagued with here) took over one of our local council car parks. They hooked up to the street lighting and dumped their dead dogs and rubbish everywhere as usual. The police were nowhere to be seen or the council officials whilst they held nightly drum fires.Very few people dared to use what remained of the car park, but those that did and failed to buy a ticket, were booked and fined for not doing so!UN BLOODY BELIEVABLE


Petition the local council for a 2m HEIGHT BARRIER to be fitted at the car park entrance. That's the only way to keep them out. 8O


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

The Road Traffic Act does not have any relevance to this issue. Motor caravans are NOT defined anywhere in the RTA other than as being a "Mechanically propelled Vehicle" (the bit on the V5 refers to taxation class!!)

Car Parks are governed by local Bye-Laws (I think its something like the Off Street Parking Regulations Act) the council are the ones who make the Bye-Laws and also enforce them.

I would write very politely to the Council asking them to furnish you, under the Freedom Of Information Act, a FULL copy of the ACTUAL ORDER they are prosecuting you under. Then sit down and read what it actually says (not what you think it says). Then appeal it. I would suggest that you go down the route

"This is the only vehicle I possess, I use it for commuting and shopping as well as holidays, it was parked fully within the marked bay and a valid ticket was clearly displayed."

I would be inclined to enclose a photograph of a little Bedford Bambi or a small romahome conversion and ask them to explain what is different between those conversions and your MH, both are designed to be "lived in" would they whack a ticket on the Romahome based on a small Citroen??

Do keep us all posted !!!


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## Rainbow-Chasers (Sep 2, 2008)

I would do what has been suggested above. Take a picture of the sign in the car park, before they replace it and you have no evidence of what it does or does not say.

You may then argue that it is your daily car, under 3.5 t, and was not overhanging a bay etc - and state (depending on what is on the sign) that it was not included in the prohibitions and fact that it is a motor vehicle and not a caravan - being that a trailer.


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## goldi (Feb 4, 2009)

I coud not agree with you more teemy bob.

Now oo to the main question

If your van was in the parking bay, whats the difference between you and joe soap the builder who has just called in to the cafe for his brecki?
in his transit

And as for parking overnight in motorway truckstops if you pays the ticket and put it in the window that is all they are botherd about.Getting money off you


norm







road is life life is the road


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

On your V5c (logbook) it will state 'Motor Caravan' if it was a Caravan it would say so. In the same way that if you have a Motor Bicycle it is different to a Bicycle.

Also, you do not pay road tax for a caravan.


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## Corkheader (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi all -

Whilst the Road Traffic Act may not define a Motor Caravan the Construction and Use Regs 1986 do:

MOTOR CARAVAN
A motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users.


LIVING VAN
A vehicle used primarily as living accommodation by one or more persons, and which is not also used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle.

(Courtesy of PNLD)

Back to my original point - why cant the Borough Councils use a National Definition.

I have appealed the notice and will up date you when I receive a reply. 

Thanks


John


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## Corkheader (Aug 25, 2008)

Well - I have a reply from the council to my letter. They have upheld the notice. I do have an option to formally appeal although if I loose the fine goes up!

They are stating that the van is larger than the bays and of a type prohibited from parking in the car park. The goal posts have moved.

Where the van is parked the bays have been resurfaced (some years ago). The bays are two deep ie cars park one behind the other two deep. The bay markings are only around the perimeter making a large box that encompasses probably thirty vehicles. Therefore my van being 7 meters long fits within the bay markings. 

I will appeal this, it fits within the bay markings and is in my mind under the Construction and Use regs not a Caravan (see my previous post)

Thanks

John


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

The ticket is illegal if they are giving you a different reason to the reason on the ticket. If you are within the bay surely you are legally parked. I suggest you take some photos as evidence.


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