# Rear light fitting problems



## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

hello all

I've checked over my Hymer B544SL pre-mot, and found that one of the rear fog lights isn't working. Easy enough, I thought, just remove the screws and detach the fitting, replace bulb. 10 minute job! But NO:frown2:. I've managed to get 4 of the 6 screws out, but the other 2 are stubbornly refusing to come out. They are turning (Torx or something similar), but not coming out. I can see no other way in to access the bulb housing. It feels like whatever it is screwed in to is just turning....

any ideas?


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

some pics


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

I've no idea on how to remove it Mike but in case you are not aware, a non-working nearside fog lamp is not an MOT failure. Indeed some vehicle have no nearside fog light fitted in the lamp cluster. S*d's law it's the offside one that you can't remove!


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

that's interesting, Peter. It's actually the nearside one that's given up! I thought that if a light is fitted, it should work for an MOT pass. I can understand when only one is fitted, but not so sure that they would let it through with only one if 2 were supposed to be there!


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

I can only suggest two methods, put all bolts back in tight and try undoing those 2 first this time, or use a small flat blade to prise the lens and unscrew at the same time, third idea, leave well alone if a nearside fog light.

cabby


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

cabby said:


> I can only suggest two methods, put all bolts back in tight and try undoing those 2 first this time, or use a small flat blade to prise the lens and unscrew at the same time, third idea, leave well alone if a nearside fog light.
> 
> cabby


yes, tried those, gentle leverage produced nothing, I didn't want to go damaging it and ending up with a huge bill for replacing a broken light fitting!:wink2:


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## vicdicdoc (May 14, 2005)

Can you drill out the stubborn screws & replace with self tappers ?


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## philoaks (Sep 2, 2008)

I'm guessing, looking at the photo, that there probably isn't enough room around the head to get a grip with a pair of fine nosed pliers and to pull/turn at the same time???

As a very final sh*t or bust plan, it may be possible to drill the heads off the 2 offenders. This would allow the lens to be removed then hopefully give access to the inside of the cluster to attack the bolt ends.

This plan would rely on a few things:

A set of very sharp drills
Sufficient friction on the bolt to allow it to stay put whilst being drilled
Only drilling in short bursts so that the heat can dissipate without damaging the lens.

Edit: Ditto Vicdicdoc, I was still typing


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I would steer clear of drilling them out Mike, firstly the hole in the screw is not round and the drill bit will grip it and revolve it in place, continue and the plastic will melt as the heat builds.

Is it possible to get at the back of the lamp where the screws terminate and possibly grip it from behind and allow the screws to be undone properly.

Otherwise leave it, but I'd be looking at the working side to possibly circumvent it happening there too, old dodge is to very slightly tighten any screw before trying to undo it to break it's grip, if stubborn, a succession of tighten loosen, tighten loosen, tighten loosen, sometimes works best.

I wish you bon chance Mike.


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Phil & vic - thnaks, but drilling out would be a very last resort! and yes, the heads are still set in the fitting, so no purchase. 

Oddly, when attempting to turn the screws the other way (ie tighten), they are just turning in the same fashion. Looks like whatever they are screwed into is turning as well. 

It may be a problem for Premier to look into! 

It may pass the MOT for now, but when I get another bulb blowing, I will still need to get the damn thing off!!


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

Kev_n_Liz said:


> Is it possible to get at the back of the lamp where the screws terminate and possibly grip it from behind and allow the screws to be undone properly.
> 
> Otherwise leave it, but I'd be looking at the working side to possibly circumvent it happening there too, old dodge is to very slightly tighten any screw before trying to undo it to break it's grip, if stubborn, a succession of tighten loosen, tighten loosen, tighten loosen, sometimes works best.
> 
> I wish you bon chance Mike.


Thanks Kev.
I've tried getting at the rear of it, but it's buried in between the Thetford housing and the back wall somewhere.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

bognormike said:


> that's interesting, Peter. It's actually the nearside one that's given up! I thought that if a light is fitted, it should work for an MOT pass. I can understand when only one is fitted, but not so sure that they would let it through with only one if 2 were supposed to be there!


My Rapido has placements for a fog lamp in the lampcluster on both sides. They were replaced at manufacture with a single fog lamp inwards of the off side mounted in the lower skirt. This was apparently because it was on the 4250kg chassis and 16 inch wheels which would have taken the original mountings above the maximum 1m regulation height . 
It passed several MOT's with no comment.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

It sounds like your best hope might be to get a cutting blade of some kind around the side of the fitting and cut the bolts out. The bolts possibly go into a captive nut and the locking 'cage' has corroded or broken.

The Torx head will be hardened steel (similar to a Cap Head bolt and difficult to drill).

If the plastic fittings are sectional, you might even have to break one to get it off and fit a replacement one. They are not cheap but think of the labour charge for a garage (who might just do the same anyway)


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## philoaks (Sep 2, 2008)

Just thought of something else you could try. Not quite as sh*t or bust as my last suggestion!

You could try to araldite an allen key, or a small length of hex section into the head which (once set) may give sufficient grip for a pair of pliers to turn/pull the bolt out.


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

747 said:


> It sounds like your best hope might be to get a cutting blade of some kind around the side of the fitting and cut the bolts out. The bolts possibly go into a captive nut and the locking 'cage' has corroded or broken.
> 
> The Torx head will be hardened steel (similar to a Cap Head bolt and difficult to drill).
> 
> If the plastic fittings are sectional, you might even have to break one to get it off and fit a replacement one. They are not cheap but think of the labour charge for a garage (who might just do the same anyway)


yes, that's what I'm thinking, I'll leave it until I see what happens on the MOT. The unit seem sto be in one piece, but the red and clear sections seem to come apart slightly, they may be locked together for strength (the 3 screws in the "red" secion are all out, but it's still in one unit and not coming out). The handbook says remove the whole module, not each one separately.

And Phil - as the bolt / screw is turning both ways, it looks like 747's suggestion about the holding piece where the locking nut sits being broken or corroded seems to make sensse.

If I can get the bolts cut & freed, then at least I will be able to get the unit off, and then get new bits.


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## jarcadia (May 1, 2005)

On a previous motorhome I had similar problem. Found that the nuts were captive rubber (similar to ones in photo) that work really well when new but after a number of years they go soft. One just refused to turn or rather turned but didn't hold. Constant pressure whilst turning was the only way to get it out, the whole rubber and nut came through bodywork, but luckily did no damage. I was told by our local dealer that these type of nuts were a common problem on caravans and motorhomes. 
Your motorhome is obviously much newer than our old Kontiki so this may not help.
I would try to remove the other side to see what I was dealing with.
Brian


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## lgbzone (Oct 8, 2008)

Hi Mike

I know it's not the nicest thing to do, but when you take it for the MOT couldn't you state that bulb has gone and ask how much it costs for them to supply and fit a new one, when they state a fiver (or whatever), say "thanks, please do so and add it to the cost of the MOT".

cheeky I know
Lee


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

lgbzone said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> I know it's not the nicest thing to do, but when you take it for the MOT couldn't you state that bulb has gone and ask how much it costs for them to supply and fit a new one, when they state a fiver (or whatever), say "thanks, please do so and add it to the cost of the MOT".
> 
> ...


ha ha! I couldn't do that, I've known them for years, would soon lose any brownie points!!


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

jarcadia said:


> On a previous motorhome I had similar problem. Found that the nuts were captive rubber (similar to ones in photo) that work really well when new but after a number of years they go soft. One just refused to turn or rather turned but didn't hold. Constant pressure whilst turning was the only way to get it out, the whole rubber and nut came through bodywork, but luckily did no damage. I was told by our local dealer that these type of nuts were a common problem on caravans and motorhomes.
> Your motorhome is obviously much newer than our old Kontiki so this may not help.
> I would try to remove the other side to see what I was dealing with.
> Brian


yes, that would seem to be what is happening! The trouble is, the one on the other side is also stuck on one screw!:surprise: Really got to sort it before bulbs start popping....


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Mike as unpalatable as it seems I'm sure the only way out is to drill the head off.


As previously mentioned by others you will need some sharp drills and care.

The screws are very unlikely to be hard, best way to attack is to start with a drill slightly smaller than the hole into which the torx bit fits, then carefully without undue pressure make a hole into the head of the screw, take a look at the ones you have got removed to measure the diameter of one of the removed screws, this will tell you what size drill you need to remove the head, this will also give you an idea of how deep the head of the screw is, with this information you then know how deep you need to drill your pilot hole. 
Once you have ascertained that information and have drilled your pilot / guide hole, choose a drill very slightly larger than the diameter of the screws shank and carefully drill into the head until you reach the correct depth and the head will fall off, leaving you with only the shaft of the screw, which will be more easily dealt with once the lens is removed.


.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Had a similar problem with the rear light cluster on an Autotrail a while ago. The screws on that went into rubbery holder like those in the photographs. I was able to lever the lens and gently ease the whole thing out, lens, screw and holder complete. Giving the screws a turn as you go it may help erode the fixing, I'd use a small electric screwdriver to keep it turning as I levered. I glued new holders in place and oiled the screws so it wouldn't happen again.


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## dalspa (Jul 1, 2008)

Mike,
I have bumped a thread by Hogan regards your problem - didn't know how to link to it so bumped it instead. I had a similar problem but chose to drill the head off, I found it quite easy. This enabled me to take off the lens cover. I can't remember how I managed to get the offending "stud" out, but with the lens cover out of the way the options are better. Heating the stud using a gas lighter and then letting it cool down and then undo whilst wedging the rotating captve nut with a screwdriver might work. Or put the stud in the chuck of a drill and rotate to heat up as explained in the thread. I glued the captive nut using a two part metal adhesive JB Weld - I always use this rather than Araldite etc.
I then copper greased all of the bolts, so good reminder to re-do.
DavidL


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## lgbzone (Oct 8, 2008)

bognormike said:


> ha ha! I couldn't do that, I've known them for years, would soon lose any brownie points!!


I'd feel the same way. i'd probably go for the dremel before the drill and grind the strength out of the screw head, that way you don't need much force towards the light possibly reducing the chance of damage.

Lee


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

many thanks Dalspa - this is the link

http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/60...ens-poss-premier-posted-here.html#post1636913

cross referenced!


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## nickkdx (May 26, 2009)

I've heard about using a Drill with driver bit in it and remove all screws that will come out and then spin the offending screws with the drill and bit, to create some heat and whilst spinning it put a bit of pressure on lense and it may come out. Then you've just got to sort out re fixing it.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I like Johns idea and the dremel to kill any strength, but if you end up melting the plastic it might not be the end of the world, Araldite clear might be all you need to make it right again, just a big blob and re drill to suit, it's probably the best way of securing a new nut into the the back plate too, maybe a nyloc, not sure, plenty of *copperslip* on refitting   stainless screws might be worth getting too, a bit of bling > >


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

bognormike said:


> that's interesting, Peter. It's actually the nearside one that's given up! I thought that if a light is fitted, it should work for an MOT pass. I can understand when only one is fitted, but not so sure that they would let it through with only one if 2 were supposed to be there!


Yes, they should let it through Mike. In fact they would be wrong to fail it. Have a look at Myth No 3 in the gov.uk site link below.

https://mattersoftesting.blog.gov.uk/urban-myths-of-the-mot-test/


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