# RDH /Van bitz thread



## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Nuke

Why do you feel the need to quash the previous thread?

It doesn’t look well, that every time Van bitz gets some adverse commentary, that the thread is closed after a small promo pce. Second time now.

They claim not to get much per dealer install, but have lost a substantial sum?

If they do better on their own installs, why send people elsewhere for fitting?

In business 50% mark up or 33% margin is the norm on retail electronic sales.

Add in the sole Importer margin and the Distributors Margin....

All they got were the fitters notes, this seems odd too, everyone seems to recall, the fitter doing everything the Van Bitz way, which presumably would include a full set of notes regarding the install and any alterations from standard (seems a plug together system which would only require a custom wire length/route, but I await correction on that) and yet he made separate notes that included some addresses? Why would he do that? At first blush that’s making unneeded extra work.

I know no censorship occured as evidenced by the fact that the thread is still there albeit locked, but is there really a need to close the discussion down?

If you want to remove this, fair enough its your board.


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## 91289 (May 1, 2005)

...no real interest in the original thread either way but I am curious as to why it was locked, it hadn't infringed any rules and didn't appear libellous in any way, so are the rules sufficient? For the reason given for locking you could take the same view with a number of threads.

Tim


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## 88728 (May 9, 2005)

> In business 50% mark up or 33% margin is the norm on retail electronic sales.


What kind of electronics are you talking about? In our experience there is so little margin that it is not worth selling electronics unless you sell *thousands* of them.

I do not know the intimate details of RDH or VanBitz's businesses, but I am totally with Dave on this one. Consumers often think that they are being ripped off when they fail to take account of the retailers/distributors expenses or fail to recognise the real quality of the service/product.

As far as the locking is concerned, it is Dave's forum and I'm sure he has his reasons. Just my opinion.

Lizzie


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## patr (May 9, 2005)

Company Reports
Had good service from a mh related company or vice versa had very poor service, then report on it in here 
Moderator Moderators

Come on Nuke, look at your own Forum headings. Either we have our say or the whole tenant of this excellent forum will be lost. This is a fabulous forum to air views, ask for and receive excellent advice and for folk who have a grievance to seek the views of others and to warn the unwary. I do not see threads on Lazy Days, Marquis or indeed Brownhills locked and on each of those you could argue that whilst one or two comments were over the top it has allowed the members to voice an opinion. If you are going to censor then keep it to outrageous comments, foul and offensive language and let the members decide whether to give Van Bitz et all a wide berth or to continue to support them. Judging from the replies there are supporters of both points of view and that surely is what debate is all about.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Lizzie

I do accounts for varied businesses, the mark up from wholesale to retail prices is generally 50% If an item is selling for £150 inc VAT the retailer as bought it for Circa £100 inc VAT thats from the wholesaler/distributer the whole saler as had his cut above what he as paid the Importer. The margins for retail are often higher still

Now its my Impression that Van Bitz Import these and also distribute, so for every one that a franchise sells Van Bitz will have had two bites of the cherry already plus whatever they receive from the franchise.

When I have enquired for the electronic's like smart regs, Invertor's and CAT 1 vehicle alarms these were the kind of margins Quoted (and that doesnt include fitting fee's)


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## 88934 (May 10, 2005)

Nuke can lock the thread, because he is god on this forum  

Anyway, I still feel bad about Van Bitz. 

I initially telephoned Van Bitz, not RDH when I wanted an alarm. I had already spoken with Van Bitz (NOT RDH) at a show too. 

I made several phone calls to Van Bitz (not RDH) about my alarm, before Van Bitz themselves suggested that I went to RDH to have it fitted.. thus saving me a long journey down south. By that time all I did was ring RDH and said I need XXX itting.. give me a date/time please. 

Where XXX was a list provided by Van Bitz themselves.. with the instructions to "Just ring RDH and tell them this is what you require". 

Not once did I discus with RDH the various options on offer. This was all done to Van Bitz direct. I was merely refered to RDH for fitting. 

It was not my fault that RDH went out of business, but that is by the wayside now. 

But what really gets me, is how Van Bitz had the dam right cheek to ask me for £50 under the circumstances. 

They were cashing in and ripping people off in my eyes. That is *MY* opinion and who knows, my opinion alone. 

But I felt it was totally out of order, given that it was after all just a handful of customers who were affected in the whole nasty affair. 

So why oh why they took the approach they did is beyond me. 

Cheers


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

The orginal thread


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Thanks George, I was busy looking for it, looks like its "up and running " again 8O


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## 89213 (May 16, 2005)

I'm sorry but when I sold my business some 7 years ago I was owed money by various customers, some of which I have still to collect [fat chance] As is normal I received staged payments for my business, the last one of which I have never received as they went bust. Sad sad I hear you all cry [don't I?] not really it's a sad fact of running your own business that you get sh*t on by some customers/agents/employees etc. you just have to get on with earning a living!
As the person who started the original thread and who paid out over £900 to have a system c/w gas detector fitted, of course I'm pi**ed off about RDH, and I consider my right to be so as inalienable. I shall continue to doubt VBs ability to conduct their business as long as they continue to cut off their nose to spite their face as they have done. They sound a bit like the American public who expect to go to war, win battles and sustain no casualties.
John


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## Paulway (May 9, 2005)

Well VB will never get my custom or anyone I can talk into going elsewhere. I also believe Dave was wrong to lock the thread, but then again it is his perogative, having said that those people with any interest will do exactly what has happened here and discuss it anyway. The thing with censorship is that it just drives people into other ways of doing things.

Irrespective of profit margins and what a company makes or not, VB has committed the cardinal sin of Customer Relations. Its simple really exceed expectations and you will have customers for life, upset a customer and the world will hear about it from some source for ever, the fact it was RDH's customer is irrelevent VB push their product as the bee's knees cvlearly now even they doubt its integrity.
I didn't think that anything being discussed on the origional thread warrented it being locked, just my opinion


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## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

lol here goes again

I locked the original thread mostly due to people assuming things and then posting them in the public domain.

Its a tricky tightrope running a large discussion website like MHF as i firstly have to allow free speech (Well i dont have to, but i encourage it) secondly you have to watch the dodgy threads where manufacturers/dealers/vendors etc get slated. Now before everyone gets on their high horses i thoroughly encourage you all to slate any company that has done something wrong where you have firm evidence and hard facts, but when a thread wanders into dodgy ground like the phrase above in Georges post of "I Assume" you are then in dangerous ground as you are merely basing your post on what you THINK and not what is is KNOWN, this can be considered libellious and i do know that this thread is being watched with interest by many people.

I simply am trying to protect the interests of the site and of its members.

As i said before if you have FIRM evidence then please post away about any company, but make sure you have proof !!!

anyway Vanbitz have emailed me with the following information, the reason that they havent replied in the thread is they dont want to get into a slanging match in public, which i dont blame them tbh as they did reply on the site before 

"VanBitz do not have franchises, they do not charge for agencies, they do not receive a fitting fee or any other payment other than the one off fee.They do not import.



> They claim not to get much per dealer install, but have lost a substantial sum?


from Vanbitz

"Well RDH were installing systems every week, goods ordered in February would normally be paid for end of March, add March's orders, payment a couple of weeks late, which is no bother because we have dealt together for years, and they have had NEC to organise and Peterborough coming up. Suddenly 2.5 months worth of monies owed."



> If they do better on their own installs, why send people elsewhere for fitting?


Come on George i dont need to refer to Vanbitz to know this, if you are living in Scotland say would you drive all the way down to Taunton ? No, so they have fitting agents throughout the country whereby they at least build their brand and get a small payback for their kit purchased.



> In business 50% mark up or 33% margin is the norm on retail electronic sales.
> Add in the sole Importer margin and the Distributors Margin....


Again George you are basing this on your ideas and not facts, I nor you know the mark up that Vanbitz put on their kit, but i do know that some markets especially electronics do not make 50% profit !!! its a cut throat market George and margins are a lot tighter than you THINK that as noted above by Ben&Lizzie who actually sell electronics.



> All they got were the fitters notes, this seems odd too, everyone seems to recall, the fitter doing everything the Van Bitz way,


Well actually it wasnt "Everyone" George it was one person. Again imposing your thoughts not hard facts.



> which presumably would include a full set of notes regarding the install and any alterations from standard (seems a plug together system which would only require a custom wire length/route, but I await correction on that) and yet he made separate notes that included some addresses? Why would he do that? At first blush that's making unneeded extra work.


According to Vanbitz "The fitter photocopied the Thatcham Insurance Certificates when they were taken into the workshop for him to sign. "

Anyway thats answered your queries, i dont mind this thread continuing as long as its based on FACTS and not "assumptions, ideas, thoughts or anything of that nature" as this isnt the idea of a public forum.



> Come on Nuke, look at your own Forum headings. Either we have our say or the whole tenant of this excellent forum will be lost.


lol i didnt censore it, its still there !!! i just didnt want it turning into a tirade with no facts against a company who if they then so wished could start pursuing legal proceedings against my members, remember the following:-

"Motorhome Facts is not responsible for any of the Articles, Comments, Reviews, or User Names, as the poster of the particular Article, Comment, Review, or User Name on Motorhome Facts assumes full responsibility."

taken from the legal documents section here:-
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/modules.php?name=Docs&file=disclaimer

i.e. if you say it and its proven to be libellious/slanderous etc and the relevant injured party takes offence then its you, not the site that will be taken to court 

dont take this as me not wanting you all to have your say, i would most positively encourage you all to slate companies that need slating, but please base it on facts.

I have no association or tie in at all with Vanbitz apart from an alarm i had installed at their workshops about 1.5 years ago before MHF was like it is now and i did pay FULL whack for it George


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Nuke

I assume, I have had a look through and I have not said I assume anywhere.

I did make some assumptions based on KNOWN facts ie the mark up's and Margin's that I quoted are the minimums that I personally have seen and been quoted when I was considering selling Invertors chargers and other electronic goods including Thatcham alarms and these were NOT based on huge orders.

Assuming a similar mark up is not and never can be libelous.

Next you posted that they dont get much per install, but that they had lost a substantial sum from RDH.

For a start this is not RDH customers fault and in a way is not relevant, but the statements while not mutually exclusive do not sit well togethor, of course substantial amount is a relevent term to. It always grieves me to see one business go down owing another money.

Here from the Van Bitz web Site

"Van Bitz is the official sole UK distributor of the market leading Strikeback Motorhome Security System."

"In conjunction with the manufacturers specialising in electronic vehicle security we developed the STRIKEBACK T range of Motorcaravan Security Systems."

Not a huge leap to thinking they import from an Italian company, but as it turns out possibly incorrect as Meta (italian company) have a UK subsiduary.

Regarding the fitter, that was mentioned by 1 customer that the fitters insisted they had to do it the vanbitz way, it was repeated in another post, my mistake but that was still willies take on the situation that the fitter had to follow the VanBitz way.

also another VanBitz site quote

"Strikeback T is exclusive to Van Bitz and *our fitting agents*. If it is not supplied by *an approved fitting agent or Van Bitz*, then it is not STRIKEBACK T."

also

"To this end we offer a no quibble two year warranty as standard on all our components and workmanship, and a lifetime warranty on the Electronic Control Unit."

highlights mine, much as been made about having proper approved fitters, but then RDH go bust and then suddenly...............

With regard to sending wylie to RDH, wylie approached Van Bitz originally and was willing to travel there, Van bitz sent him to RDH. Only a wild guess but if someone approached me to do a job and I would make more doing it myself, then I would do the Job myself. If my agent was paying me a similar amount (profit wise) then I would send to an agent.

I have never suggested yours wasnt fully paid for !!, If I remember rightly, I hinted that a certain magazine reviewer possibly had a financial incentive (free or much reduced price) and this was never denied.


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## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

> I assume, I have had a look through and I have not said I assume anywhere.


Im just highlighting this to everyone George that things like assumptions, ideas, personal things and the such like are dangerous ground when on forums 



> I did make some assumptions based on KNOWN facts ie the mark up's and Margin's that I quoted are the minimums that I personally have seen and been quoted when I was considering selling Invertors chargers and other electronic goods including Thatcham alarms and these were NOT based on huge orders.
> Assuming a similar mark up is not and never can be libelous.


lol i never said that particular statement was libelous George ?
but im not an expert on law, but i would have though assumptions based on facts are assumption nonetheless 



> I have never suggested yours wasnt fully paid for !!, If I remember rightly, I hinted that a certain magazine reviewer possibly had a financial incentive (free or much reduced price) and this was never denied.


lol again George i was just ensuring everyone is clear that i am independant and not prone to protecting companies due to some allegieance to them,



> Not a huge leap to thinking they import from an Italian company, but as it turns out possibly incorrect as Meta (italian company) have a UK subsiduary.


This is what i mean George, these leaps of ideas are what gives people the wrong impression. I could say i think MHF is the best mh website in the world, but doesnt mean it is 

I forgot to add the final statement i received from Vanbitz btw here it is in its entirety.

"Any customer that shows me a written Van Bitz Warranty book, that is not being honoured by Van Bitz and I will personally guarantee a lifetime warranty free of charge to that individual. I will not honour warranties from third parties, nor do I feel I should."


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi again Nuke

So you libeled me by saying and I quote

"like the phrase above in *Georges post of "I Assume*""

its easily done isnt it !!

To make assumptions based on evidence, as long as its shown that you are not trying to palm off an assumption as fact (which I have not)

Btw showing an assumption cannot be libelous, ie Many Gays wear pink socks and Bill wears pink socks, is not libel, saying "bill is gay" could be Libel as not all wearer's of pink socks are GAY (again it might not be libel if Bill is provably gay ie its the truth) Liberace won a case like this, I was amazed

I asked Eddie last time what was in their system that made it worth so much more than a comparable system costing FAR less money.

Quote

"OK there are a few small points

1. A brighter LED, but a Very bright Led is at Most a couple of pounds 
2. Second external with brass fitting lets go absolutely mad and say this is worth £10 
3. Overnight pitch fee good CL £3 per night 
4. Encapsulated Mercury Microswitch £2

£17 lets round that up to £20 OK so the Strikeback Costs £575

A comparable Thatcham Costs £190 Fitted, so thats £385 More for the Stike back less the £20 we can Justify = £365 Extra. "

Several times I asked what extra features made it worth so much more money and their was no info forthcoming.

Quality and lifetime guarantee,

Anyway back to Vanbitz last statement

I will not honour warranties from third parties, nor do I feel I should.

That states their view, its obviously not popular with their customers and others (inc. potential customers) that have posted here. Many feel that if Van Bitz believed in their product they would have no Qualms about picking up the warranties, after all its only the fitting by their carefully selected agents/installers that seems to be an issue here, the blackbox etc have a lifetime guarantee anyway.

If I had carefully selected agents and installers and proclaimed as such on my website and in my literature, I would be embarrased to charge to cover any errors they had made or could have made. Rightly people would ask me why are you worried about covering work done by them?, after giving them the the big build up you are now worried about claims, do you trust their fitting or not?


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## 88934 (May 10, 2005)

Nuke, 

If VB feel the need to take legal action against something I said. Then so beit. 

Like I said in the old thread, I feel like they are after my blood anyway? 

(I don't see how MHF could in any possible way be held responsible for things which *I* might have said) 

But like I said in the last thread, my Strikeback was the best thing since sliced bread, and I praised both it and VB *ALOT*. 

Now when RDH went bust, You can imagine how I felt. But to then receive a letter from VB asked me for £50 was the final straw. 

It was at that point that *I* lost my faith in VB, full stop, period, end of story. 

*I* (that is me, wile coyote) still think for the small number of people it involved in the RDH Saga, it was a very bad business move by VB on this issue. 

I paid £1200 for my system, then soon after (I am still in first 12 months) get told to get stuffed or pay more money, So I think I have good reason to feel a little bit P**** off eh. 

In my opinion if VB had honoured the small amount of RDH customers involved in this, can you imagine the excellent publicity they would have got. But instead they tried to extract £50 from each of them and added more nails to Strikeback coffin. 

When I purchased my "strikeback" I had no idea at the time that indeed it was *I* that it was going to Strike Back against :evil: 

This is your board Nuke, and a fine one it is too. But I can see you also locking this thread too. You may even throw me off all together for venting a bit of free speech, who knows. 

But it will never stop me from feeling like I have been ripped off by Van Bitz. 

Cheers


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## nukeadmin (Oct 10, 2003)

> if VB feel the need to take legal action against something I said. Then so beit.


They have not informed me of this, so i shouldnt worry  I dont believe anyone will suffer legal consequences due to this thread lol



> This is your board Nuke, and a fine one it is too. But I can see you also locking this thread too. You may even throw me off all together for venting a bit of free speech, who knows.


I dont throw people off this forum, i warn people if they step out of line but the general populace of this site dont tend to be the sort of people that get thrown out of anywhere


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## patr (May 9, 2005)

Crickey Nuke I was once thrown out of the Naafi Roundabout Club in Aldershot and only quick thinking by my trusty batman Robin, who opened the window, saved me from a paneful landing. Bad move to wear a Green Beret in a Parachute Regiment town but we were young and without a care in the world ( and particularly stupid!)

No need to tell me what I must do. I'll get my coat and join the RMHFF (Robert Mugabe Housing Facts Forum)


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## androidGB (May 26, 2005)

This thread looks as though it will run and run, any chance of bringing in the narcotic gas detector element and and then it can continue forever

 


Andrew


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## 88934 (May 10, 2005)

androidGB said:


> This thread looks as though it will run and run, any chance of bringing in the narcotic gas detector element and and then it can continue forever
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew


Cool, Let it run 

I am not going anywhere, and will discuss it for as long as I live.

Cheers

£50 - not on your life VB


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