# Would thinner orange cable be ok?



## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Ok all you electrical experts out there...

I'm fed up with lugging 1/2 a ton of thick orange cable around with me on my travels and storage is tight on our van. It just so happens that our flymo has given up the ghost and it comes with some lovely orange 3 core cable at least 1/2 the thickness of the other stuff and so much easier to coil up so i was thinking of using that. 

We rarely plug in and even if we are on a site with high amp mains we rarely use much power and the cable will always be fully uncoiled.

Can you see any probs?

pj


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## 88810 (May 9, 2005)

We dont use the thick orange one either we use a blue one bought at B&Q just to annoy the CC. If people ask we say with a straight face that "We had to have a blue one to match our van" and people actaully believe us.
We like you keep it unrolled and havent had a problem.


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## Road_Runner_644 (May 9, 2005)

Hi peejay

I did the same thing, used the strimmer cable as a hookup.

In theory you will lose some volts, but most UK sites are 230-240 and your appliances are rated at 220-240.

Voltage has only ever hampered us at one site when the reading on the voltmeter was 180V, i don't think having super thick cable would have made much differance.

Dave


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## 88941 (May 10, 2005)

peejay said:


> We rarely plug in and even if we are on a site with high amp mains we rarely use much power and the cable will always be fully uncoiled.
> 
> Can you see any probs?
> 
> pj


Hiya

i can't forsee any real probs if you are not a high consumer,

the only prob you will have is not complying with 16th edition IEE regs which state that the cable must match the rated amperage of the plug in use i.e. to fall within the regs the cable you use with our 16 amp rated plugs should have a cross sectional area of 2.5 square millimetres.

Keith n Debs


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

Maplins sell a low temperature blue cable rated at 16 amps by the metre. It is much lighter than the usual orange stuff, complies with IEE regs and remains very flexible in freezing conditions. The only point to note is that you should always uncoil your lead completely to prevent overheating and induction problems when drawing a high current.


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Thanks for the replies guys, the flymo cable it is then.

pj


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## SidT (May 9, 2005)

Have you ever seen a continental van with a thick orange cable?    
Cheers Sid


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

SidT said:


> Have you ever seen a continental van with a thick orange cable?
> Cheers Sid


Only when they are being towed :wink:


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Sid wrote;



> Have you ever seen a continental van with a thick orange cable?


Thats what always puzzles me, the continentals always seem to have thin black cable on a large wind out drum which, unlike our orange pythons, looks really practical and easy to use, but they never seem to bother to uncoil it all, (apart from when they're about 1/2 a mile from the socket :roll: ). 
I've always been told you must never leave a cable coiled up otherwise it could overheat and possibly catch fire.
I've never seen or heard about any foreign motorhomes bursting into flames because of this common procedure so could this be, to quote Mr Telford esq.... 'another urban myth'?

Or, metaphorically speaking, have i got my cable completely tangled as usual?

pj


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peejay

I've never seen a foreign motor home hook-up lead go up in flames either - but twice in my professional life I have witnessed reels of cable spontaneaouly combust, once causing a fire sufficient to bring out the fire brigade. The first time it was cable coiled up in a dustbin that caused the fire - and had it not been for the fact that the emergency services were less than 200yds from the incident at the time, there may well have been a very serious incident. The second time was when a long extension cable was left with half its length coiled on the reeling drum with a 2kw floodlight plugged into it. The heat from the close coiling together with the inductance (the cable was not overloaded) caused the coil of cable to combust suddenly. Luckily the fire went out when the lead was switched off.
So it isn't one of Georges' urban myths, it actually can happen and it isn't necessary for the cable to be overloaded either if it is coiled up.


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## SidT (May 9, 2005)

I agree about uncoiling them and I must admit most of the continentals I have seen have uncoiled them. I was on a stellplatz in Kalkar recently with eight cables plugged in to a central point. I was embarassed at my bright orange cable standing out so much against the black cables you could hardly see.
Cheers Sid


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## 91929 (May 1, 2005)

*Hook up Cable*

1) The continentals that i have seen all use a smaller diameter cable than us

They also carry a Blue plug to 2 pin connecter on a short cable. This they connect to their cable drum. They also carry a 2 pin to Blue plug that they couple from the drum to their Caravan/MH
In other words they are just using a bog standard 13A continental extention cable, and cant be bothered (or cannot afford) a proper 16A to 16A hook up cable

They then go to some extreems to protect the cable & plugs from damp

2) As far as getting induction from an unrolled coil

We used to make up highly accurate resistance coils for inside instruments

First we would measure the length of wire to slightly over the value required.
Then measure the resistance using a 'Wheatsone Bridge' and make adjustments untill the value was accurate

We then Doubled Up the cable and started to wind it onto a former starting at the center and working towards the two ends
This produced a NON INDUCTIVE coil as the magnetic fields were cancelled out in the winding

NOW using this why should we get inductive heating in a coiled hook up cable carrying AC. Where the live carries the current into the van and the Neutral carries the current out of the van?????????????

I have left a coiled cable out in snow and frost, the heat produced in insufficient to thaw out even the lightest of frosts


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi all

Coiled up cable causes heat, if low consumption probably not going to combust, but its a very silly thing to do why risk an electrical fire or electrocution I have seen that to were an eejit who I had warned several times carried on using it while coiled and evenetually had a cable reel fire.

Also using the low ampage wire from a flymo IS NOT a good idea, one it will heat up quicker when coiled, also will heat up even when not coiled if the ampage exceeds its rating.

Proper Arctic blue costs pence per meter, for the sake of a few quid do the job right.

Pete I have seen the results of cable reel fires over and over, I dont know about your instrument coils, but consider a few examples.

Light bulb is a coil of wire that gets hot with AC racing back and forth.
Old type electric heaters are a coil of wire
Early resistors are simple wire windings.


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## klex20 (May 1, 2005)

*Re: Hook up Cable*



PamNPete said:


> 1) The continentals that i have seen all use a smaller diameter cable than us
> 
> They also carry a Blue plug to 2 pin connecter on a short cable. This they connect to their cable drum. They also carry a 2 pin to Blue plug that they couple from the drum to their Caravan/MH
> In other words they are just using a bog standard 13A continental extention cable, and cant be bothered (or cannot afford) a proper 16A to 16A hook up cable
> ...


Well, we will get a proper 2.5 mm cable as soon as we can afford it....
:lol:

Your "bifilar" wound coiled cable is a great idea but might be difficult to perform IRL, coiling in one cable properly on the drum is one thing but now two of them. And in precise layers also? 8O


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## 95742 (Jul 15, 2005)

*ORANGE CABLE*

PLEASE DONT USE STRIMMER CABLE FOR POWER SUPPLIES IT DOES NOT HAVE AN EARTH CONDUCTOR AND IS ONLY MEANT FOR DOUBLE INSULATED EQUIPMENT AND UNDER THE IEE REGULATIONS SHOULD NOT BE USED FOR EXTENSION LEADS PLEASE NOTE SOME ORANGE COLOURED EXTENSION LEADS WITH THREE PIN PLUG AND SOCKET ARE ONLY TWO CORE AND AS SUCH ARE UNSUITABLE


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

The orange or blue cable that most of us use is rated at 16amps and the RCD fitted in your vehicle should be as well, the site feed to your van will be protected by a simular device, so all three elements are protected, their supply, your cable and your van, if you change to a smaller cable you run the risk of overloading your cable possibly causing it to melt.
allot of sites do not supply 16amps, the cable you are talking about is rated at 6amps i believe, so if you only connect to a 6amp supply you will be fine, as their fuse will trip if you try to draw more. what ever cable you use it must be three core.
only thermal heating is a problem on coiled cables and for that they need to be close to their design capacity, as most people are unaware of the loading they are placing upon their cable its a good idea to unwind it, induction heating is a myth and does not occur, also voltage drops over 50 or 100 metres are insignificant.

olley


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## 2point (Jun 10, 2005)

I wouldn't risk mine and others safety for the sake of vanity I can understand the space issue, but it's only space whilst in transit.

A few years ago I plugged a tumble dryer in using an extension reel, when I came to use the reel again I founf that the cable has fused itself together due to heat build up. A very close call.


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## Bazbro (May 9, 2005)

Quite a few years ago, when I first heard the warning about our cables remaining coiled, I did a test. I ran a 2kw fan heater in the van for just over an hour, with our proper orange hook-up cable coiled on the reel. There was no discernible rise in temperature. Try it yourself. After about 5 minutes I worried, and tested it, then left it a bit longer, and so on.

However, on another occasion I did the same in the loft, using an ordinary diy extension lead to power my lead light and the fan heater (can't remember the setting; 1kw or 2kw) and I was horrified when I discovered the cable was hot - almost too hot to hold!

My conclusion is, therefore, that on hook-ups, using the proper cable and no more than 2kw, is not a problem if the proper cable remains coiled. If you make a mistake, though, I'm convinced cable can catch fire.

General advice: always uncoil a hose fully unless you know it's safe.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Olley

You think that the coiled cable will be protected by the MCB's in reality it will not, heres why.

Think of the old fashioned fires, coils of diochromic wire which got hot due to resistance did this blow a fuse or mcb? no you can create a lot of heat well before 16 Amps is reached, also a 16 AMP MCB can require 5 times more ampage to trip than its rating, read here !, the coiled wire can melt or cause a fire very very easily, I have seen at least 3 coiled cable fires.

Barry is correct about the rating of the cable and that on some occasions it will not matter, but most people will have no idea or to calculate what's OK and whats not, simple answer do not use cable on a coil unless its been specifically designed to withstand it.


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

8O Just a point. Every Reel of Cable Cable I have bought has had a Coiled rating and an Un-Coiled rating. :roll:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi George when i went college (we where still using quills then) i was taught that fuse wire melted at approx twice its rated ampage, but an MCB trips at just over its rating.

olley


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Olley

CLICK on this link

It needs 3 to 5 times the rated current, so a 10 Amp (Type B) mcb would need 30 to 50 Amps to trip.

The reason why its reccomended not to used coiled cables is that most people cannot figure out which cable would be safe to use and which would be dangerous.


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## 91929 (May 1, 2005)

Yes George I HAVE seen the results of cabls overheating

i used to 'demonstrate' the effects of a 13A fues protecting items rated at 5A, or wired with 3A cables 
To welding students

My cable isnt wound onto a drum, ut when fully coiled up it har 25 x 1metre turns Also ti is a 16 A cable.

the only time I have felt it warm was on our last trip.
it got warm laying in the sun when the only current being drawn was to run the fridge and a 2A fan
Otherwise running heating fan, immersion heater, kettle, and hot plate (total 15A) there was no change in temp

Electric light bulbe etc are designed to draw sufficient current to make them hot

I am now retired from teaching electrical engineering and have given away all my reference books with the resistance of cables, but they are much lower than the resistance of you examples 
BA(Hons), HND, Full Tech Cert, CGLI Adv, Apprentice Trained Instrument Technician


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Pete

I know they are lower resistance (and Impedance) but they are to demonstrate the basic principle. Coil wire and you get heat. Place a solid steel bar between + and - on a battery bang and melted bar, connect a thin curly wire between + and - and you get heat and light, same basic principles.

By some strange coincidence, I visited another business today and a worker there was running a welder through a coiled up extension cable with Inevitable results, I have asked the chap to keep the extension till I call by tommorow to photograph it.

J&S also points out that some ext cables have wound and Unwound ratings all based on the same principles.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Hi george 
you are correct about the three to five for type b but this refers to the instantaneous tripping current in a fault situation, if you refer to iee regs they state for a non fault situation i.e. overload, that the tripping current should be not more than 1.45 the cable rating.

olley


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cach...nsion+cable+coiled+and+uncoiled+ratings&hl=en

Have a read of the above link, note read pages 11, 13 and 19


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Thanks for all the replies but its all getting a bit technical for me now.

The original question, can i use a length of 3 core cable from my old flymo safely?

I only use hook up occasionally and am a low power user and would probably use it to power the fridge, water heater occasionally when req'd - use of lights and water pump intermittently and minimal use of small lcd tv about an hour max each night for the news and weather.

I would always uncoil it fully before use.

The only reason i use electricity is when on sites or cl's where i have to pay for it whether i want it or not (thanks caravan club)

pj.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peejay

No you should not use the lower rated cable, the potential is there to draw more current through the cable than it is designed for, regardless of coiling (but coiling is more dangerous)

For your own safety do not use a cable that rated for less than half the potential ampage that could be drawn though it.


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Thanks george,

Thats the bit i don't understand, surely a flymo whizzing around the lawn is taking more current through the cable than me on a site with my fridge and other low use bits'n'bobs, or am i being a bit naive here?


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Peejay

It probably is taking less BUT, the Flymo is not likely to have someone plug in an Hairdryer.

All the fixtures and fittings either side of your new weak cable are set up to handle a potential 16 Amps


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## 88847 (May 9, 2005)

This has been a good thread to read

i have often thought about why i hump this orange towrope about with me

CONCLUSION................i'll keep humping it around

REASON.........................i want to keep my wife and i as safe as i can

Thanx for all the info

Paul


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