# Vehicle weights - what do all the definitions nean?



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I have copied this over from another thread where it was off-topic.

I am hoping some of the knowledgable guys from VOSA or Traffic Police will be able to allucidate



747 said:


> MAM = Maximum Authorised Mass.
> 
> If you run any heavier than the figure quoted, you are overloaded. You could still not be overloaded on any axle as the added sum of the max axle loading is usually always above the MAM.
> 
> ...


Jim

This is not a criticism of you(do not shoot the messenger) but even that document has a variety of definitions which appear to amount to the same weight

GVW

MAM

MGW

MTPLM

The only difference I can find is that MAM includes 'Authorised' so could be less than the others to suit drivers' licences.

However my V5C has none of these. Mine reads

F.1 Max. permissible mass (exc. m/c)

And has nothing entered on that line. And what is "m/c" ? Surely not a motorcycle?

I can understand that The Swasea Swatwits or the Brussels Bratwits have changed their definitions, but how are we(or Policemen in other countries) meant to know what they mean or what is legal? Especially if there is no figure entered?

I am aware that the 'Lading Plate' is what most Police or other authorities would look at, but since my converters plate is plastic, and that and even a metal one would be easy to forge then they might want to see the V5C, which in my case tells them nothing.

Geoff


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

It would have been better to have just copied the link I gave, or found a better one Geoff.

As for 'don't shoot the messenger' ...... too late I am afraid, my man is already on the Ferry. :evil:


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

The MAM is the guide weight for drivers licences in reality. This is why the Police use it.
Does not matter what the axle weights are, the MAM is the one that counts as it says what the class of licence needed.
So say your van is MAM of 3500kg. you can drive this on your licence without C1.
Plus if weighed it must not be more than the 3500kg as stated on the plate.

Stop trying to confuse yourself, or it could cost you a hefty fine or even worse,Barryd could be in front of you.

cabby

And yes i know one must not go over the axle weights, but that is a different topic.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

cabby

To whom was this remark addressed? " Stop trying to confuse yourself"

You refer to MAM - I have nothing like that on my V5C.

Geoff


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## daffodil (Aug 7, 2014)

747 said:


> It would have been better to have just copied the link I gave, or found a better one Geoff.
> 
> As for 'don't shoot the messenger' ...... too late I am afraid, my man is already on the Ferry. :evil:


hA hA so that was what ray was doing all along 

formulating an alibi

so he can knock off Nicholsong for 747 :lol: :lol:

the plot thickens

So MAM really stands for

Murder and Mayhem :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

M/C is short for Motor Car on these documents.

MAM is a Driving-Licence definition.

Axle weights are not additive for GVW, they are always more when totalled than the GVW.

Our Mercedes has 2300kg front axle and 4300kg rear axle, GVW is 5990kg.

As an aside, I got the build spec sheets out of Mercedes today for our 614D vehicle, and the axle is a 5600kg item, so probably the same as the 814D.

We also have 'Soft Springing'   

Peter


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

OK will try again then to elucidate, the V5C should have a VIN number and an Engine number.
You should have a metal plate, usually under the bonnet and visible at another location, depending on make.This will have chassis details, hopefully they will correspond to those on the V5C
This plus the converters plate is all that is needed to identify the vehicle in an ordinary situation.
My previous comment was due to the comments about why the difference in weights.Thought it might help readers understand what their licences required.Plus of course I seem to misunderstood what info you were looking for.
Oh yes m/c can stand for motor/caravan, or motor/conversion.

cabby

doing my best at all times.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Just to point out cabby that my present van and the last one did not have engine numbers in the V5C. I put that down to laziness by the Dealer in both cases.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Thanks for that 747, I will go and check our vehicles V5C's now as curious.Not that the engine number really makes a difference.

cabby


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

listerdiesel said:


> M/C is short for Motor Car on these documents.
> 
> MAM is a Driving-Licence definition.
> 
> Peter


Peter

Your answer is interesting.

If MAM is for driving licences, as controlled by DVLA, are VOSA and DVLA using different definitions and weights?

If 'm/c' means motor car what does the line on my V5C mean which reads

"F.1 Max. permissible mass (exc. m/c)"

[no figure entered]

Does exc. mean except or excluding? or maybe

Do any of you have a V5C with the same wording for that paragraph?

Does anyone have a line that says either MAM or MPLTM or anything other than my F. 1 wording?

If we British people are having trouble understanding all this when writing in English what does a Czech policeman make of it all?

I would ask DVLA, but the last time I sent a question addressed to their Legal Department, which apparently they do not have, it was referred to the lawyers at the DfT, whose answer was 'ask DVLA'

I am still hoping some MHF member who was involved in enforcement will come on this thread to enlighten us - or to say they were/are as confused :roll:

Geoff


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## HarryTheHymer (May 1, 2005)

Geoff

My V5C reads the following from D.3 downwards:

D.5 Body type - MOTOR CARAVAN
[X] Taxation class - PRIVATE HGV
[Y] Revenue weight - 4250KG GROSS
P.1 Cylinder capacity - 3000CC
P.3 Type of fuel - HEAVY OIL
S.1 Number of seats - 4
[D.4] Wheel plan - 2 AXLE RIGID BODY
E Vin/Chassis/Frame No. - ZFA250000 etc
P.5 Engine number - NOT KNOWN
F.1 Max. permissible mass (exc. m/c) - Nothing shown

Hope this helps to some extent.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

HarryTheHymer said:


> Geoff
> 
> My V5C reads the following from D.3 downwards:
> 
> ...


Thanks

Seems much like mine.

As for your V5C the only weight on mine is

[Y] Revenue weight

This appears to be a para only on UK documents, and is certainly not on our Polish equivalent. I wonder what the international standing is of this weight when there is no entry in F 1? Could a foreign jurisdiction use it to prosecute for overweight/motorway charges etc.?

This has got me thinking a bit more.

If our V5cs are not complete, i.e. missing F.1 and other entries, is it in conformity with the 'Vienna Convention' for the right to use the vehicle in other Contracting States?

Does it even comply with UK law?

We need 'theawin' (sadly sold his Flair) or 'Jean-Luc' (who we have not seen for a while)

As for all those ex-police? Where can you find one when you need one?:roll: :lol:

Geoff


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

OK Here goes I will try and explain.

The ONLY thing that any enforcemnt officer is going to interested in is the Vehicles "plate" If its a motorhome then its the CONVERTERS plate they will look at not the base vehicles plate even though the vehilce must have both.

On that (converters) plate will be listed .

The Vehicles identification No. (VIN) 

1. The Maximum (or Gross) Vehicle Weight. (MVW or MGW) Thats the absolute maximum weight of the vehicle thats permitted when on a road. Its IDENTICAL to Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) as mass is a more "technical" term than weight :wink: 

2. The maximum axle weights. that being the maximum weight that each axle can transmit to the road surface (if you have a Tag Axle vehicle then they are usually shown as a SINGLE axle because they are less than 1 meter apart)

3. The Maximum TRAIN weight, (MTW) which is the absolute maximum the vehicle PLUS and trailer and load can weigh. (Its is entirely possible to be overweight even if the various axle weights have not been exceeded) many many motorhomes run in excess of their max TRAIN weight because they tow trailers/cars on A frames that EXCEED the max weight permitted. For instance my X250 based Autotrail can only tow a trailer with a max weight of 1045Kg and that JUST takes in a Smart car and trailer, or something like a Citroen C1 on an A frame. I have seen many similar MH's towing Estate cars (and even Land Rovers  ) on A frames. A hefty fine just waiting to be collected !!!

For driving licences the ONLY figure that matters is the vehicles Max Gross Weight ( MGW) or Authorised Maximum Mass (MAM) If it EXCEEDS 3500 Kg then you require EITHER "Grandfather rights" Basically if you passd your test BEFORE 01 Jan 1997 you will have Garndfather rights which authorises you to drive a vehicle up to a MGW or MAM of 7500Kg without having to take a test AND you can tow any trailer behind said vehicle. If you passed your test AFTER 01 Jan 1997 then you WONT have Grandfather Rights and must take an ADDITIONAL test to drive a vehicle over 3500Kg.

Do not concern yourselve with what it says on the V5, it is, to a great extent, irrelevant !!

MTLPM and MIRO etc are useful numbers but the enforcement agencies are NOT INTERESTED in them. ALL they will want to know is whether your licence covers you for that class of vehicle and whether any of the weights shown on the palte have been exceeded.

Hopefully that has explained things?


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Motor cars are such up to 3050kg.

Exc = excluding by memory.

Peter


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

And just to add to the mix:

If you passed your test after 1997, not only did you not get the C1 entitlement (to drive anything over 3.5 tons), you did not get the B + E either.

So a youngster (relatively speaking :roll: ) can drive a motorhome (under 3.5 tons) but not tow anything behind it as he is limited to 750Kg unless he/she passes a separate Driving Test.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Thank you MrPlodd. hopefully Geoff will be happy with that explanation.
Would I be correct in saying that the F1.. m/c is for Motorcycles.

cabby


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Cabby

Sorry no idea about that one.

Peter.

3050kg UNLADENED weight is the cut off point for vehicle SPEED limits the vehicle classification for "motor Car" is up to but not exceeding 3500Kg


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Andy

Thanks for the trouble of writing such a long explanation.

I did already understand a lot of what you explained.

There are still some aspects which are not explained.

You used several different sets of terms - GVW, MGW and MAM. Surely there must be a current legal term? What is it? Of course there is no term on the plate; just a number - does this have any legal standing in international law?

You state that the V5 is 'largely irrelevant'. I understand that it is a requirement to carry a document of registration in many countries, therefore is the document only relevant in respect of showing registration or are the details, e.g. as to weight, also a legal requirement under the Vienna Convention? If so what is the law if there is a discrepancy between the 'plated' weight and either the 'Revenue' weight on the V5 or the F. 1 weight, or is it legal for that to be blank?

You say 'any enforcement officer' - I can accept that is true for UK, but outside UK?

As I posited in a previous post, what if there is a bent 'plate' fixed to the vehicle? Does the law rely on the V5? and then which weight on the V5?

Does a foreign enforcement officer take note of the [Y] Revenue weight on the V5, which does not appear on non-UK registration documents?

This may all sound theoretical - until one is standing in front of a XXXX police officer in XXXX country trying to argue one's case.

Geoff


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

The correct technical term is now Maximum Authorised Mass, it's just that the others are still in use. It's thesame as HGV and PSV Heavy Goods Vehicle and Public Service Behicle, everyone uses those terms but they are actually now LGV's Large Goods Vehicles and PCV' Passenger Carrying Vehicles.

The V5 ONLY lists the MAM not the various axle, or train weight. They are ONLY on the plate. The only "discrepancy" that can crop up is the MAM as that's the only one shown on the V5. I never even looked at a V5 because I didn't need to.

The revenue weight is, as I said earlier, irrelevant when it comes to enforcement, I am pretty sure it's relates to how much road tax has to be paid (in conjunction with CO2 emissions etc) but I am NOT certain.

The whole purpose of the vehicle plate is to have an easy reference point ON THE VEHICLE where all of the important weights are stored/displayed. 

If it was me the only thing I would be in the slightest bit concerned about would be if the MAM shown on the V5 was different to that shown on the plate. In such a case I would photograph the plate and send a copy to DVLA so they could amend the V5 (as that, without a doubt, would be the one that was incorrect) 

Andy


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## robbosps (Mar 10, 2014)

747 said:


> And just to add to the mix:
> 
> If you passed your test after 1997, not only did you not get the C1 entitlement (to drive anything over 3.5 tons), you did not get the B + E either.
> 
> So a youngster (relatively speaking :roll: ) can drive a motorhome (under 3.5 tons) but not tow anything behind it as he is limited to 750Kg unless he/she passes a separate Driving Test.


Not quite correct.

A youngster with cat B, can tow a trailer, providing that the combined weight doesn't exceed 3500kgs. There are some other bits around that, but that's a general idea.


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## robbosps (Mar 10, 2014)

As an Adage, if your weight plate has been removed from tHe van, I'd be more worried that there were other issues. 

Having met some foreign law enforcement, they would go for the plate, and take the plastic or paper sticker as the weight.

But then, whose ever been stopped and weighed?


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

And this is where a lot of caravaners are breaking the law.

A Range Rover can Weigh 3,200kG's legally laden. With a Max Towing Weight of 3,500kG's. Bringing that up-to 6,700kG's.

I bet there are a good few drivers, young and old who passed there test post 1997. Who do not realise that adding just a 1 Ton caravan to a large car or van, can take them way over the limits.

Trev


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