# Resons why councils discourage motorhomers.



## 89987 (May 1, 2005)

I work in the tourist industry and on my travels I had an informal discussion on the issue of motorhomes recently with the tourist development officer for a public body. There is a deliberate policy to discouraging motorhomes in some towns and specific tourist attractions. Here is a summary of the points involved :

Fire : A motorhome in a municipal car park is a fire risk and the authority has a statutory obligation of fire protection. 

Insurance : There is an issue of public liability and insurance premiums of the local authority can increase where overnighting is allowed in car parks.

Trade : The council is tasked to encourage tourism to local B&B and hotel accommodation and motorhomes detract from this initiative.

Trespass : Public parking and land open 24hrs a day attracts travellers who wish to establish permanent residency on council property and eviction is often a lengthy and costly process.

Antisocial behaviour : Many municipal car parks attracts gangs of youths at night particularly those involved car trailing. Locking car parks overnight discourages this type activity.

Crime : Car parks are covered by town security and CCTV operations. It is prohibitively costly to maintain such service overnight and valuable vehicles parked overnight encourages crime.

Licensing : Local authorities have licensing and planning control over dedicated caravan parks and in this way can maintain high standards of accommodation and provision. This is not possible in cases of municipal overnighting of motorhomes. 

Refuse disposal : A motorhomer does not contribute to the local income in the form of local taxation but requires refuse disposal facilities for which the local authority incurs a cost.

Public conveniences : Regardless of the issue of vandalism, conveniences situated in municipal parking areas are closed overnight to discourage undesirable sexual activity.

Any comments ?

Drifter


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

It's interesting to hear the council's views, thank for posting that. This is what we initially thought about each point...

Personally we have no great desire to park in public car parks, for most of the reasons below plus the fact the view isn't great.

Fire: Technically true, but we fell that the chances of a cataclysmic fire starting on, and spreading from, a motorhome in a car park is pretty low!

Insurance : Simple economic decision for the council as we see it: Is it possible that the extra local business bought by motorhomers outweigh the insurance premium?

Trade : Motorhomes ARE tourists! Also, motorhomers probably won't stay in the B&Bs anyway.

Trespass : Agreed that travellers (motorhomers without morals?) are not a good thing, and we wouldn't want to be confused with them.

Antisocial behaviour : Firstly who would want to stay in such a car park? Secondly, is being locked in really that much of problem?

Crime : Again, why park in nasty car parks?

Licensing : If you want to park for free, there are lots of ways but you have to look for them and take your own risks. Otherwise, you pay through the nose for a club site. We often opt for the middle ground offered by a certified site, preferably costing under £5.

Refuse disposal : We tend to keep our rubbish until we can empty at a site. On the rare occasion we empty somewhere else, we're probably spending money there at the same time (like Tescos)

Public conveniences : If don't have an onboard loo, then the already unattractive proposition of parking in a public car park is even more dismal.

In general fair points from the council, if you find a car park then take your chances if you think the risks are worth the small saving when compared with a comparable minimal facilities site.

There are plenty of better options for wild camping. We tend to spend 2-4 nights a week wild camping, and the rest of the time spending about £20 a week on site fees.


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi Drifter,

are these points you list up really brought up by council officials? I have the impression that some of them (Fire, Insurance) are mere excuses, while others like "refuse disposal" could be covered by charging an adequate fee for the stopover.

When I look to my former home country Germany there we have the following situation: 

With the exception of the northernmost province Schleswig-Holstein (they have a special "nature protection"*) law in place banning the use of all kind of "mobile abodes" outside of official sites) overnight parking is basically "not forbidden". Means that you can stopover for one night unless local parking restrictions are violated.

While now most councils and other local authorities tolerate (or just ignore) motorhome stopovers, there is an increasing number actively encouraging it by providing motorhome sites and/or sanitary stations. 

On the other hand there is a small (but also increasing  ) minority of councils actively discouraging motorhomers. Asked for their reasons they normally present a lot of gibberish about motorhomers leaving no money (a statement which has just recently been proven wrong by an independent study) etc. When you dig deeper this normally boils down to two reasons:

1. Local camp site owners fearing for their revenues.
2. Local residents complaining about inconveniences caused by motorhomers.

Number 1 may be true but is not really relevant here, as discouraged motorhomers normally just go somewhere else, but not on the local camp site. 

Number 2 on the other hand most frequently is related to nuisances from garbage, toilet wastes, power generator noise and barbecue fumes. And I am afraid I must say that there are some rotten apples among us fellow motorhomers who give reason to such complaints. 

Best Regards,
Gerhard

*) Can somebody tell me what kind of "nature" can be protected on tarmac car parks??? :?


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## 89987 (May 1, 2005)

Don't shoot the messenger !

-------------------------

Gerhard

In the UK there is 'public liability' issue with insurance. If you have an accident on the land, the owner can be sued, hence the common signage 'at own risk'. This excuse of insurance in my view is not valid for motorhomers, who's vehicle must already be legally insured. This is not the case for caravans.

There are also 'national parks' in the UK like Schleswig-Holstein and in these areas there is special legislation for environmental protection. Often the local council has obligations under these rules. Again, this excuse in my view is silly, because unlike static caravans which can be a blot on the landscape and holiday homes causing community issues with house price inflation, there is no permanent footprint from motorhomers.

In the UK the fire service is under the control of the local council.



> While now most councils and other local authorities tolerate (or just ignore) motorhome stopovers, there is an increasing number actively encouraging it by providing motorhome sites and/or sanitary stations.


Oh ! How lucky you are one the mainland of Europe. 
If only it were the same in the UK !

------------------------

BenandLizzie

I don't agree with you about not wanting to overnight in public car parks. Whereas some can be pretty awful, the UK is full of very nice and attractive market towns with wonderful views and scenery. Often the public car park in these towns are off limits to motorhomes which is a real shame.

------------------------

Drifter


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## andyangyh (May 1, 2005)

*UK Aires etc*

Interesting isn't it, that the UK councils are so worried about fire, insurance risks, travellers, rabies, witchcraft (forget those last two - they haven't mentioned them yet!). I live in France, spend most weekends camping on Aires and we have NEVER seen any "travellers" camping on them. Mainly because the members of the "travelling community" in France tend to drive white vans with caravans behind them and stick to their own (often legally provided) campsites. Most Communes (the equivalent to our local councils) welcome motorhomers and are sensible enough to realise that anyone who has paid upwards of £30000 for their vehicle is going to have some disposable income to spend in their town and is unlikely to be some sort of vandal. They are also not potential customers for hotels - although they may well eat in the attached restaurant or drink in the bar.

They also don't seem to have the vandalism problem that bedevils the UK. Likewise, I presume they think that the best way to make a deserted area unattractive to joyriders etc is to populate it - with motorhomes.

If they have any sense they also will have worked out that a motorhome contains its own sanitary facilities - thus making the provision of toilets un-necessary. As for the bit about having to close toilets at night because of unwelcome sexual activity - the remarks above concerning joy-riders apply. Those that seek out quiet places are unlikely to use somewhere overlooked by a collection of vans (especially as one of them might just contain the police).

French friends are baffled by this attitude on the part of the British. We also stayed on a France Passion site (a vineyard where they produce excellent cognac) and the owner was amazed that Britain doesn't have a similar scheme. "But it brings in so many people! Do they not want to make money?" He was happy to provide somewhere flat, secure and picturesque for an overnight stay content in the knowledge that probably one in two of his guests would buy something from his vineyard and distillery.

What a strange country Britain has become!


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

Hi Andy and welcome. Hope you enjoy it here.

As a lover of and a frequent traveller to France I envy you and wish that we had taken the plunge to live there when we first thought of it 25 years ago. Unfortunately it's now too late and we have to make do with our 3 or 4 months a year. Most of our stopovers are on aires or France Passion premises. Most are great but the occasional one  .

If I can be cheeky, what area do you live in?

We visit the Dordogne a lot as we have a mobile home there which is let for the high season. It's sited about 16km NNE of Nontron.


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## 88923 (May 10, 2005)

I work for a county council highway authority and we don't have responsibility for parking - that lies with the district councils - and I can only comment on my own informal discussions with those responsible for parking.

Many officers are totally ignorant of the MH issue - they see them as something else they have to 'manage' along with coaches and HGV's - a bit of a pain, so some officers may well use any number of excuses to avoid having to tackle the issue.

I have tried to open up a sensible dialogue with those officers and have received some good support, in fact, there are likely to be some significant developments in Chester in the near future (not because of me but I did help to speed things up a bit). I honestly believe that it is only a matter of time before better facilities are included in any redevelopment of parking areas. In the meantime, getting through to those who will not see the light is a difficult job!!!

banjo 8)


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## 89335 (May 20, 2005)

> there are likely to be some significant developments in Chester in the near future


that's good news

something needs to be done and I think that more and more pressure will come to bear as more and more people get into motorhoming (like me)


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## MOTORHOMER (May 9, 2005)

Hi


I think the poster above who says France provides legally licensed sites for the travellers all over France says it all. They dont have the problems we have in England with these folk because they have somewhere to go all over france unlike in this country where the places for them provided legally either does not exist or they are totally few and far between.


Motorhomer.


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Being about to up-size from my Frisky motorcaravan, which will fit under height barriers & in a car parking space, to a 6 berth coachbuilt which won't, what concerns me is not a place to stay cheaply overnight. I have 2 children & feel safer on a proper campsite. However, I will need to visit shops etc & will want to park my motorhome whilst I do so.
I think it is totally unreasonable of Councils to deny me the opportunity of visiting their towns & spending my money there. :evil:


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

Isn't it annoying to think that although motorhoming is on the increase and more and more people are enjoying the freedom of such holidays that we cannot then park in a lot of the nearby towns and villages to buy our provisions or shop in the local craft shops etc. A lot of people who enjoy motorhoming have some mobility problems and it is not always possible for them to walk long distances and they need to park in the town centres etc. 

Like someone said in an earlier post a lot of motorhomers have spent a lot of money on their vehicles and have disposeable income to spend in the local communiites and I think to turn away the potential business from such tourists is ridiculous and the councillors really do need to get their heads together and rethink their policies. I hardly think that the motorhome community is going to add to the crime rate - we have all worked hard ourselves in order to purchase our dream motorhomes and the majority of us are responsible law abiding adults who take great pride in our vehicles and just want to be able to pursue our love of travel and touring our countries beauty spots. We like the freedom that a motorhome gives us and the fact that we can up and go as and when the fancy takes us. We are not travellers who have no regard for other people and leave mess and litter behind - we are ordinary law abiding people with a love of beauty, peace and tranquility. The last thing we want to do is trash our countryside or pitch up in some grotty car park. That is not what motorhoming is all about. Why doesn't our country behave more motorhome friendly - because a lot of tourists from other countries will also bring their revenue to our towns and villages. So come on you councillors ... sort this out!

Sonesta


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## 91958 (May 1, 2005)

*Re: UK Aires etc*



andyangyh said:


> Interesting isn't it, that the UK councils are so worried about fire, insurance risks, travellers, rabies, witchcraft (forget those last two - they haven't mentioned them yet!).


If they tried to ban witches they can now be done under the Religious Discrimination laws. :wink:

I was wondering about some of those points mentioned above when reading about the Stopovers campaign.

If they have sites especially for MHs wouldn't that attract 'travellers'? Councils aren't providing nearly enough official sites for them so it would be an attractive option for them.
I think that could be the main stumbling block on getting these Stopover sites going?


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## 88923 (May 10, 2005)

As I said back in March ...there would be some significant developments in Chester....and they're already in place. Overnight stop over point. May not be the best in the world but it's there, within a minute of the city centre and virtually beside the city walls.

Not all council officers are unwilling to listen but it can be hard to persuade those who don't enjoy the freedom of owning a MH, to understand just how good it is and why we need stop overs. To be fair, not many people understand the logic of driving around in a big white van thingy!!! 8O 
Hey, it's our secret! :lol: 

Anyway, job done for Chester, now we've got to work on the other towns in Cheshire, though there is a facility in Nantwich.

Banjo 8)


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

I see the point regarding attracting travellers but there must be some means of preventing this. Not sure exactly what that could be at this moment in time but if the subject was properly discussed I am sure some kind of safety measure and solution to this could be found. Maybe we would all have to have some kind of special pass or something that could only be obtained if the applicants met certain criteria etc - like I say I am not sure what method could be adopted to prevent the travelling community from setting up - but I am sure there must be ways and means.

I know all towns and villages must fear this happening - we had hundreds of the travelling community arrive in our town one Christmas a few years back and they created total havoc in the town. They set up home on the seafront in the car parks and no one could find anywhere to park. Christmas and New Year normally attracts many tourists to our town either for short breaks or for a day out over the Christmas holidays and many visitors kept away as a result. From the moment they arrived there was trouble and in the end because of all the problems and the violence - every single pub for miles around shut down for Christmas and New year and the whole town was unable to enjoy the normal Christmas celebrations. The pubs were all frightened to open up their doors it was that bad and it spoiled Christmas for a hell of a lot of people. It was so sad and a lot of revenue was lost for the local businesses. Many of the pubs rely on the Christmas and New Year trade in order to survive and this amount of financial loss can never be recovered. Shops too had to endure shoplifting and some of the children were allowed to run wild around the town in and out the local shops shooting people with toy bb guns etc. In the end the council managed to get them to move on - but a lot of mess. litter and vandalism was left in their wake. It was quite a frightening time for our town and I know certain measures have since been set up now to prevent this from happening here ever again - but I can well understand why any town or village would be fearful of them turning up in their community. Pity they could not have behaved more decently - perhaps then they would not be made so unwelcome wherever they go. I am sure NOT everyone who travels in these groups behaves badly - but sadly like in all other walks of life the guilty spoil it for the innocent and then we all end up getting tarred with the same brush. 

Sue


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## 88797 (May 9, 2005)

In the UK councils are terified of travellers invading if they dont put hight barriers on every carpark - so how come france has thousands of perfect sites for 'travellers' called Aires????

Is it a UK problem only?

A


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

I don't know the answer to this one chuggalugs - all I know is that it is damn right annoying. I think it is unfair for motorhomers to be singled out like this and there must be some kind of compromise from the local councils in order to make our towns and villages - especially tourist attraction areas more motorhome and campervan friendly. We pay our rates and taxes and we should be allowed to park up - at least for a few hours like everybody else can. 

Like I said in my earlier post - I understand the problems that might arise and the fact that the councils do not want to encourage communes of travellers - but the ordinary motorhomer who uses his van for holidays and touring etc should not be penalised because of the minority and there must be some means of sorting the wheat from the chaff!

Shall we start up a petition?

Sonesta


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## 89564 (May 28, 2005)

This summer whilst out locally in the Motorhome and looking for a dog walk we were confronted by two things yet another height barrier accross a rural car park and the local ammenities officer (or some such) inspecting his handywork. I asked,after explaining that i had never defaulted on one council tax payment and being willing to pay the car park fee why was he discriminating against my fully legal vehicle. (I can go on).

The answer seemed to be that as the local councill did not subscribe to some policy that actively involves its self in the welfare of'Travellers' and had no real sites for them to stay on they had to make certain they didnt settle on their patch.

Where shall i park then? 
On that piece of waste ground over there but as its council property you will need to display a ticket.

Whilst waiting on Bleriot Plage Calais beach car park this spring for the dog's vet appointment i watched a burly Gendarme and his to young lady officers move a group of Travellers.

The two girls just banged and banged their nightsticks on the side of the 60ft Hymer and Hobby Caravans until the 'Travellers' left.No arguments allowed.

Sadly the car park now has height barriers.


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## RobMD (May 9, 2005)

Travelers, Tinkers, call them what you may, won't be stopped by a gate or height barrier - they will just either destroy the barrier or force their way in and deny all knowlege of the damage.

Fire Risk? a car with a full tank of petrol is more prone to fire than a M/home with diesel and bottled gas - how many car versus commercial vehicle fires do you see? (and M/homes even less).

Income? If 2 people in a M/Home stay for even 1 night, it is likely they will either go out for dinner, replenish provisions, sightsee, top up with fuel etc. If we pass by that income is lost.

Security? We don't ask for dog patrols around our vans, just the normal security measures in place for the population as a whole.

Waste? How much waste do councils think we generate? probably less than average, and many of us are very environmentally aware.

Toilets? We have our own!

In my opinion, unless it is shown that Motorhomers are as important to their local economy as other tourists, we will treated as a nuisance rather than an asset.


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

*Councils & Motorhome Parking*

We are Full Timers but we own 2 houses which we rent to family. We used to park on the path next to our main home until the council asked us to move it onto the road. We didn't want to cause traffic problems, so we moved it round to the other house and parked it on a parking space at the side of the house away from the main road. Someone, who obviously begrudges our hard earned lifestyle complained we were taking up too many parking spaces. There is room to park 12 vehicles. We take up 4 spaces, but there has only ever been 2 other cars parked there. We have had a running battle for the last 6 months with the council classing us as Gypsies or Travellers and wanting us to move to a council provided site (we wouldn't last 2 minutes with them). We are travellers of sorts I suppose. But I don't think we can be classed with the other type. :twisted:


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## 91929 (May 1, 2005)

Hi drifter interested to read the letter and I agree with some of the points

We live near Keswick and find many motorhomers turn away when they find that the parking is retricted to them (the spaces are too short and people get fined for overhanging the space)

So the town is loosing far more in lost trade than in empty B&B's. As most of the B&B's are already full especially in the summer months

Keswick is also busy with tourists in the winter months

I do understand about the 'travellers' who do not travel in motorhomes but in caravans


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## 96627 (Nov 2, 2005)

My parents used to live in Keswick - didn't have parking with their house and had to use the town centre car park for their Pilote. For this they paid 2 annual parking fees because they took up more than one parking space - but as anyone knows who visits Keswick, once you move your vehicle in the summer, you're very lucky to get a space any time soon. Result, especially during summer holidays, Convention week, Jazz week, Victorian Fair, half terms etc. they stopped using their van, because of the hassle parking it again. One van sold.  

Krystal


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

I'm sure it all comes down to a difference in attitude between the British and the French and Germans. Here we tend to look for the problems and legislate to avoid them. Hence all the " MHs banned because of possibility of fire / traveller invasion / improper use of public loos etc etc. On the continent they tend to come from the opposite direction : allow something and then, if it becomes a problem, do something about it.

I'm no expert on law making, here or anywhere else, but I suspect it all boils down to the fact that it takes a very long time to get a law or prohibition passed in UK and lots of money must be spent first. From my limited experience of living in a French commune, if the Mayor wanted to ban something then he did it overnight. I can imagine the fuss that would be made if the mayor here did likewise !

G


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## 90136 (May 1, 2005)

There is a lot of discrimination out there about M'Homes and their owners, I know by experience, while we attended York this year the local paper had an article about Motorhomes parking in the road in front of local residences, Note how much they valued the income from the show, employment for local people.
My neighbours have actively tried to force us to sell our van, by reporting to the DVLA my driving a motorhome while disabled, Still fighting this one.
Actively complaigning to the council about where we park, however the council admit that they cant insist we park elswhere.


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Barty said:


> however the council admit that they cant insist we park elswhere.


 8O That's not the position of the council in our own case. They have threatened on 2 seperate occasions whilst we have been visiting family back in the UK to take us to Court and have us prosecuted for trespassing on Council property. We own the house next to where we usually park it. :evil:


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## 95603 (Jul 1, 2005)

Do we really deserve to be treated any differently?

The Stopovers campaign run for many months and was supported by several Motor-home magazines and managed to get just 3000 signatures on their petition.

There are close to 8000 members of this forum, how many took an active part in the campaign?

There are estimated to be 80,000 motor-home owners in the UK, 3000 out of 80,000 is not a very good response.

The problem lies with NIMBYISM. How many on this forum, or others, really want a Stopover next to or across the road from their home? Personally I would not mind but most of my neighbours would be very much against it, some are even trying to stop the local bus service going past their houses.

I spoke to both Dundee City Council and the Tayside Tourist Board. To my surprise the council were far more sympathetic and pointed out that most of the Council Car Parks allow overnight parking as long as the parking fee is paid. Few of these carparks have height barriers. The Tourist Board were not really interested "In a few Motor Caravanners" their words not mine. There was no interest in either Municipal Sites, as in France, or Stopovers similar to those to be found in Eire.

Personally I am not sure what the answer is other than to use the existing site network.

Regards,

Mike


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## 88808 (May 9, 2005)

I am just in the door after 2 weeks touring Scotland in Dragon bus. I used coach and HGV parking bays in the following locations:

Killiecranckie, Dingwall, Ullapool, Sandwood bay car park, Durness, Portrigh, Oban, Inverary. All for overnight stays. Being the end of October/ start of November I was never once approached or required to move on. 

Dragon bus is a full size coach and is a class 2 HGV, I do not mind living amongst HGV's and Coaches, I had a driver round for tea and was invited on a coach tour by a coach driver. 

I have in the past used road side laybys, I cannot get into most caravan sites due to size and turning ability. 

I leave no mess and stay no more than 2 days in any location, although I was stuck all weekend in Dingwall with an air leak in the braking system. I contributed to the local economy and ordered spares through the garage. 

I have to say though I am sick of seeing those unsightly yellow notices littering my beautiful country. I've lost count of the number of photo opportunities being marred by these signs. :wink:


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## bar (Aug 6, 2005)

*mh friendly parking*

I have been talking with the Chief Executive of the West Country Tourist Board, Malcolm Bell who is a progressive man. He has listened to the case for motorhome parking and understands all the arguments. I am hoping he will be able to influence some of the local councils in Devon & Cornwall of our value to the economy.Will keep you posted.

By the way as an ex N. Ireland man I was delighted to read about a new "aires" in Broughshane, Co. Antrim . see www.motorcaravanning.co.uk stopovers uk & uk aires .
And as Red Dragon Indicates Scotland seems to have a much friendlier attitude to motorhome tourists, well done Scotland.

Bar.


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

Good for you Bar; keeping my fingers crossed that Malcolm Bell can apply some influence.

G


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## rommel (May 10, 2005)

*Wildcamping*

I think its got something to do with France being a Republic and Britain a Kingdom, property in Britain has always been owned by the gentry whom want to keep peasants off it , this has been perpetuated by "little Englanders" whom feel affronted and threatened by any infringment of their privacy (look at the proliferation of "no turning"signs at the entrance to drives, how mean spirited is that? The French have still got a connection with the country, and feel their country belongs to everybody and if you can enjoy it without harming anyone else then go ahead. The Government ( both national and local)still want to stop people doing things. When was the last time Tony Blair passed a law allowing some freedom or other without a restrictive caveat.


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## andyangyh (May 1, 2005)

I wrote an article for Motor Caravan magazine when they started their Stopovers campaign. I interviewed French mayors, tourist officials etc for the article and the contrast between attitudes in France and UK was very marked. In France they WANT motorhomers, welcome the money they bring to an area. I got all sorts of strange objections from UK officials - risk of being sued (is EVERYONE in this country obsessed with being sued?), fire risk (never understood that one and, on asking them to explain, neither did they!), risk of vandalism (the French officials said that having motorhomes parked in an area REDUCED the incidence of vandalism). I suppose the reason why we will never have stopovers in the Uk was summed up when I got an e.mail from a "Risk Assessment Manager" from a local council. As long as our Council Taxes are being spent on Risk Assessment Managers (and the mindset that implies) we are unlikely to get councils welcoming motorhomes.

Good job we have the 5 van sites. Not quite the same as French Aires but the nearest we are likely to get in this country.


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## 96105 (Aug 23, 2005)

Drifter said:


> I work in the tourist industry and on my travels I had an informal discussion on the issue of motorhomes recently with the tourist development officer for a public body. There is a deliberate policy to discouraging motorhomes in some towns and specific tourist attractions. Here is a summary of the points involved :
> 
> Fire : A motorhome in a municipal car park is a fire risk and the authority has a statutory obligation of fire protection.
> 
> ...


hi IT has been mentioned in other threads and posts some councils do put
MH friendly parking has in hunstanton . =D> =D> =D> =D> 
:wink:


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## bar (Aug 6, 2005)

*Hunstanton Parking*

Thanks Saruman, nice one!!

Bar


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