# Efoy Economics



## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Its getting near to winter again and each year I look from the top of my fence at the viability of the Efoy system. Do I jump off this year or do I stay put?

It seems to me that there are two major economic considerations here (apart from the issue of carriage of methanol and insurance companies)

From the sales brochure from Efoy the life of the unit is 3000 hours (don't know if the unit is binned or refurbished after that)

On the same brochure it says that a 10 ltr methanol bottle will supply 760 AH of electricity

So. During winter we use around 50 to 60 amps per day off grid and in Jan we could theoretically get up to 50AH from our Solar panels in the South of France. In practice that usually equates to around 25 on a good day. We go for approx 6 to 8 weeks and so would be looking to "top up our batteries" at the rate of say on average 25A per day. Thats a total over the period of 1050A on a 6 week trip.

At £43 per 10 ltrs that would cost £59 - still cheaper than EHU however if you add in the depreciation on the unit at roughly £1 per hour (£3000 cost / 3000 hours ) that would add another £194 to the cost giving a total of around £250.

Is that about right? And should I take this into consideration in my deliberations?

Can any Efoy owners give their actual running costs?


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

Calcs are probably right but in reality you will find that you use the Efoy more as insurance than for regular use. If you know you always have a backup you wont be so stingy with 12 volt usage. But your beast has a fair bit of solar real estate on top and you also drive from time to time and the on-board charger is a beafy beast supplying lots of amps.

Since January we have used only half a 5 litre container of Methanol and this was principally because we hammered the 12volts over a 5 day show weekend to pull the batteries down to test the Efoy in the new van. And you have twice the solar area than us I believe with just the one 125 watt panel.

On that basis how old will you be when 3000 hours clocks up? 

Oh, and I have the hardware and the software for re-setting the Efoy operating parameters to suit bigger batteries, given to me at Dussledorf.

Its your money.

C.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Now that MMM is published, perhaps you would like to advise MHFers of what you thought of Truma's LPG fuel cell. I guess waste heat isn't conducive to silence :-(

What do you reckon for availability and price?

Dave


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

Vennwood said:


> Its getting near to winter again and each year I look from the top of my fence at the viability of the Efoy system. Do I jump off this year or do I stay put?
> 
> It seems to me that there are two major economic considerations here (apart from the issue of carriage of methanol and insurance companies)
> 
> ...


Hi,

You've asked for comments from owners so I hope that others will chip in here. Although I'm an owner I don't get away often enough or for long enough for my trips to be comparable with your sort of usage, so I'll just add a few factual points which - as a dealer - I'm aware of.

First of all, SFC has improved the efficiency of all the Efoy models (by around 20%) so that capacity of a 10 litre cartridge is now 925 Ah. Note that you should check whether the specific model in the UK supply chain is the updated version. Even the earlier models can be improved upon (from 760 Ah / 10 litre) by around 7% thanks to a free software updater which SFC has provided.

Regarding the life of the unit, the 3000 hours which you quote is the warranty level; SFC has said in it's publicity material that in its test programmes the fuel cells have lasted well beyond that. At the end of its life the fuel cell stack loses its reactivity but this does not mean that the entire device has come to the end of its life; SFC will service the fuel cell to replace the stack and any other parts as necessary. The fuel cell has to be returned to SFC (they have recenlty introduced a new mechanism for service returns generally). Sorry but I have no information at the moment on the price of the refurbishment.

My take on the costings? - the running cost in fuel terms is very reasonable when measured against EHU and - most importantly - convenience and ... err... empowerment. It's up to you whether or not you also add in depreciation (which is less harsh anyway seeing as how it can be refurbished to renew its service life); but if you do, then perhaps you should also take into account the depreciation of your entire rig and wonder if you ought to be going at all ... (jokey emoticon would appear here except that I can't be bothered to try to remember how to add one and I can type much faster than it would take)

David


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## Vennwood (Feb 4, 2007)

Thanks Clive/David,

All helps to get a better picture. As you both say if we started adding in the overall depreciation of the MH and bits then serious depression would set in.

You are right Clive, I do have a fair amount of solar but the output still doesn't amount to much in winter and I have invested in additional battery chargers so when I do use external power (EHU or genny) then I can re-charge quickly. Its the convenience/noise issue (genny) etc. that prompts me to re-visit this yet again.

How much does this hardware/software reprogram cost Clive as you know I would probably need this update given my battery size(s)?

Presumably the latest Efoys with the better consumption are readily available by now? How can you recognise the new models?

Pete


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

Yes, i too am interested in the truma fuel cell and price/ecenomy/reliability/lifespan.
Anybody(Clive) got any info apart from the fact they will be available next autumn(or has this changed)?

PaulnCaz.


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

Yes the EFOY units have improved in efficiency over the last few years and a free firmware update is available to all owners. Efoy will contact you is my understanding. They did Germany first (I wonder why?) then continental Europe and finally the UK. I borrowed a firmware update kit at Dussledorf from their stand and did ET while in the camping platz. Then gave the kit back to them. Each time I meet them I sound them out about an LPG cell from their stable and each time its a positive NO NO. However the latest EFOY 2200 has a bigger stack and provides up to 7.5 amps and when I suggested that they will achieve 10 amps from their standard suitcase sized enclosure within 2 years I got a sweet smile.
The reliablity record of the Efoy units is very good. I only have knowledge of one failure and that was of a Mk 1, 2 amp units like Van Bitz had in the UK first.
Its technically possible to make a fuel cell work from most gasses and most fossil fuels. LPG and Diesel being the ones that would interest us the most. The problem with these systems is that a unit called the "reformer" is required to convert the fuel into something the cell can use. The "reformer" is normally twice as large and twice as expensive as the actual cell bit.
I reported accurately what I was told regarding the Truma unit regarding their predicted time scales. Those who follow this subject closely might have spotted that I reported the same time scale last year as well. So they have effectively stood still for a year? Make of that what you will!. The proffered price was EU6000 + VAT for 250 watts. For me, putting the price to one side three things need sorting with it.
1 The noise from the cooling fan. Its similar to the Truma aircon system.
2 The wasted heat from the unit. As most fuel cell operation is likely in winter then some way of directing this waste heat into the living accomodation is required. Currently its blown outside.
3 Its size. Its MASSIVE and will completely fill an under double seat locker.
The other runner in the LPG cell race was Voller in Basingstoke with a monster called the "Emerald" which provided about 1kw. I did visit their factory and it was plain that they were only at the prototype stage. Certainly not engineered for any volume production. I did ask them what they had identified as their principal market for this product. A question they found some difficulty in answering. There were no volume production facilities at their factory that I could see. They have subsequently gone into liquidation so I lost the chance of an in depth report for MMM.

Samsung were also demonstrating a 200 watt LPG cell a couple of years back but seem to have gone quiet of late. Protronics also offered a 250 watt Methanol fuel cell to the American RV industry in February this year but also seem to have gone quiet. Prise estimated USD9000 trade. I believe they lost the military business to SFC (Efoy). (EMILY)
Domestic systems are around running fron Natural gas. Ceres Power in the UK said a year back "Ceres Power's technology is suited to auxilliary power and generator replacement for motor home applications, however at this stage we are focussing on a stationary CHP product for use in the home. We may, in the future, look at motorhome application, but at this stage I am unable to tell you when this may be."

That folks brings you all up to speed with me.

Here,s a piccy of the Samsung lump.

C.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

The Ceres Power unit fits easily into a standard domestic boiler unit and will supply considerable heat and mains power. This is available in 2011. Quite attractive for motorhome winter use. For summer, however, this is a different ballgame. Removing waste heat could be noisy, too :-(

Dave


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

Perhaps a wet system like the Alde to transfer heat into the motorhome quietly for winter and another set of radiators under the van to get rid of it during the summer?

But its BIG.

Here,s a different question. "How much comfort does one have to enjoy to move from being classed as a "camper" to being classed as one with a moveable home".
Or to put it another way "are any of us on this forum campers?"

C.


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

CliveMott said:


> But its BIG.
> 
> Here,s a different question. "How much comfort does one have to enjoy to move from being classed as a "camper" to being classed as one with a moveable home".
> Or to put it another way "are any of us on this forum campers?"
> ...


yessir! With a T4-based high-top camper I'm definitely a camper which is why I maintain that of the alternatives discussed there is only currently (and for some time to come, I'd say) one that has a hope of fitting in - witness the Efoy which takes up _some_ of the space in the bottom of our wardrobe: Efoy fits

I looked at the Truma at Dusseldorf and I would lose a a great deal more than some space at the bottom of the wardrobe - how about an entire seat (which effectively means our bed)?

And as for DB's Ceres which would fit into a standard domestic boiler; well I guess it's time to put wheels on the house, for me at least.

Clive, thanks for your summing up of the current alternatives: it nicely puts the current state of play into perspective. Hope that you can also supply perspective glasses because these might be necessary for some to get the picture...


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Absolutely!

Oxford English:
camp·er / ËˆkampÉ™r/
• n. 1. a person who spends a vacation in a tent or camp.
2. a large motor vehicle with facilities for sleeping and cooking while camping.
PHRASES:
happy camper a comfortable, contented person.

From Ceres Power:


> Our core technology provides an excellent platform for the development of a range of closely related products for global applications including:
> 
> Combined Heat and Power (CHP) products for new and existing homes, operating on mains natural gas or packaged fuels
> 
> ...


Dave


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

Vennwood said:


> Thanks Clive/David,
> 
> How much does this hardware/software reprogram cost Clive as you know I would probably need this update given my battery size(s)?
> 
> ...


Hi Pete,

The newer Efoys have a 15-digit serial number, compared to 12 digits before.

I asked at Dusseldorf about using the fuel cells with larger (over 240Ah) battery banks and was told that this only required the installation of an optional plug-in interface. Not an expensive piece of kit either - as I recall, the price was listed at in the order of 35 to 40 Euros - though not sure whether this was a retail price or trade price, or what a UK retail would be.

Right now I can't offer more detailed information because that was as far as I enquired at the time.

David


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

DABurleigh said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> PHRASES:
> happy camper a comfortable, contented person.
> ...


It's a platform already?

Strike a light, I'll make room immediately!


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

David,

If you wish to resort to sarcasm centred on one of my posts, please point out what I have said or quoted to merit it. And if you do quote me, please do in in full, not heavily edited to make a biased point. Who is better placed than Ceres Power for full-scale production of thousands of LPG fuel cells delivering kW of 240v electricity?

Calor has paid up front for a deal encompassing 20,000 units. No, there won't be a motorhome dedicated unit before 2012.

I can do sarcasm too; I cannot believe it is your conflict of interest in selling EFOY that gives your posts the flavour they have?

Dave


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

Pete,
The software is free. Its the TERMINAL program already resident in every microsoft based PC. The small adapter they gave me converts a 9 pin serial port to one for a network plug to fit the EFOY. An off the shelf part I guess.
The important part is the instructions which I have in pdf. 
How to set it up.
What to change to alter the Efoy switch ON and switch OFF voltages.

Thats it

If you want a copy PM me an email address and I will forward to you.

C.


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

DABurleigh said:


> David,
> 
> If you wish to resort to sarcasm centred on one of my posts, please point out what I have said or quoted to merit it. And if you do quote me, please do in in full, not heavily edited to make a biased point. Who is better placed than Ceres Power for full-scale production of thousands of LPG fuel cells delivering kW of 240v electricity?
> 
> ...


Dave,

Sorry, please pardon my clumsiness if my intended mild humour came across as sarcasm. I took your post as being light-hearted and responded - I thought - in an appropriate way.

I roughly edited the quote to keep in the 'happy camper' bit ie the light-hearted context; while the 'platform' part of the quote was to reference the serious point I wished to make that a platform does not a deliverable product make, for the motorhome market, here and now.

And it is the motorhome market we are talking about.

David


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## coppo (May 27, 2009)

David

You must have a grin from ear to ear(lol) after reading Clives post on Truma vega and the current state of play with other possible technologies.

Your sales may go up a little now. 

I was certainly surprised of the problems which Clive says need overcoming, i thought after reading the Truma website that everything was all ironed out and there would be a mass of people ordering one. 

I think i was wrong.

PS. How much is the new 2200 efoy unit to buy?

PaulnCaz.


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## davidcampervanstuff (Nov 24, 2007)

coppo said:


> David
> 
> You must have a grin from ear to ear(lol) after reading Clives post on Truma vega and the current state of play with other possible technologies.
> 
> ...


Hold your breath: the suggested retail that I have is £4675 for the 2200. But as far as I'm aware there are not yet any available from stock in the UK supply chain. SFC's production roll-out was scheduled for October but no doubt it could take a while for production and distribution to gather pace.

We will fix our own retail price once supplies are available here and trade pricing has been confirmed.

Its a big price to pay but it does get you 7.5 A in the same footprint as all of the models in the range. Of course you would also use more fuel if you operated at full power all the time but as you might have gathered from other discussions Efoys tend not to be used like that: the point is having the power available for times that you do need it.

Hope that helps.

David


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