# Disable Engine Started feature from Sargent Unit



## 113841 (Jun 29, 2008)

Can anyone help I have recently purchase an 05 Arapaho it has a Sargent Power controller and the problem is when you start the Engine it turns off all of the electrics within the Motor home and puts on the display that "disabled ening started". I realise that this is a safety feature but as proven on our last trip it was far more dangerous with my wife and children sitting in the Motor home using torches rather that being able to put the reading lights on. Is there any way of disabling this feature????


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

I'd like to know that too: I have a Sargent in my Autocruise: it is no bother as I don't carry passengers but I'd still like to know.

Harvey


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

As this seems to be a safety 'euro-directive' or some such it is doubtful that Sargent are in a position to suggest ways of disabling this feature, however,
if you go to their website here:

http://www.sargentltd.co.uk/html/power.html

you will see that they do have connection information for their systems and you may be able to determine from that what you may need to do to alter it; not that I am suggesting that you should buxxer about with it if you are not competent of course ..............

Harvey


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## lindyloot (May 20, 2007)

Hi mindimand, our does the same. The only way you can have the electrics on ( when in the move) is if they are connected to the vehicle battery. As soon as you start the engine it imobilizes the habitation electrics for safety reasons.


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

ingram said:


> As this seems to be a safety 'euro-directive' or some such
> Harvey


Someone in here said it was a peculiar English configuration. Our Burstner does nothing so ridiculous.

I can see some logic in it, having passengers flashing lights on and off whilst driving at night poses a little risk.


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

It's a requirement of the NCC (National Caravan Council) approval scheme and applies only to UK manufactured M/Hs.

The Europeans are far more sensible and specify the exact opposite - that appliances should be operable with the vehicle in motion (subject to local laws).


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

I stand corrected: It was the "EMC ( Electro Magnetic Compatibility ) directive 89/336/EEC requires that electrical accessories within the vehicle are disconnected while the vehicle is in motion." explanation that I scanned briefly: lead me to believe, 'Europe': careless of me .....  

Harvey


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## 113841 (Jun 29, 2008)

:lol: 

thanks for all of your help I have down loaded the wiring diagram as suggested by Ingram. I have now removed pin 7 Engine running signal Red/yellow and it appears to have solved the problem.


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## hilldweller (Mar 8, 2008)

mindimand said:


> :lol:
> 
> thanks for all of your help I have down loaded the wiring diagram as suggested by Ingram. I have now removed pin 7 Engine running signal Red/yellow and it appears to have solved the problem.


Brilliant - People 1 - Interfering bottom inspectors 0.

Now your only problem is that if you have an electrical fire on the move you'd better put that wire back pretty sharpish or else your insurers have a nice get out.

I think the bottom inspectors win in the end, they make the rules.


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## Sargent (Feb 1, 2008)

Hi Everyone,

Although it is possible to disable the engine run feature Sargent Electrical Services Ltd can not condone it in any way because of the legal requirements of the EMC directive, on a modern system disabling the feature will also stop the leisure battery from being charged whilst the vehicle is being driven.
Also quite rightly as someone mentioned if it was found that this feature was disabled after being in an accident your insurance could become void.

By all means check the technical drawings to figure it out but unfortunately we cant tell you how to do it.

Regards to all

Karl Hulse
Sargent Electrical Services Ltd


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## ingram (May 12, 2005)

Sargent said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> <snip> ..... on a modern system disabling the feature will also stop the leisure battery from being charged whilst the vehicle is being driven.


Thanks for that Karl... an important point.

I am now planning to fit a radio / CD player in the habitation area and it would have been good to have a permanent supply to retain the radio memory: I guess I'll just have to tap into the leisure battery direct.

Things were so simple in my old Renault............... 

Harvey

ps. perhaps mindimand would like to pay the sub. and join, and tell us if that is the case with his / her charger. :wink:


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

I worked out how to do this on my Autotrail 696g 2007 if anyone's not already worked around it themselves.

Take the front off the EC 325 having first pulled the leisure and vehicle fuses and having ensured it's not plugged into the mains. Look around the fuse board and you'll find three connectors together marked 'Switched supply' and 'Permanent Supply' which sort of gives the game away. They are in the middle of the main board, to the right of the Solar panel connectors.

You'll find there are two cables linking the 'Switched Supply' to the habitation fuses, one to each end of the fuse block but both doing the same job. Take one of these and either branch it straight into the 'Permanent Supply' if you want the habitation electrics on all the time or run it through a switch if you want the option to switch them on and off. I made up a spade connector with a double male conncector on it and put this on the 'Permanent Supply' and then plugged both the 'Permanent' and 'Switched' feeds into that, leaving one of the 'Switched' leads connected to the original place.

I used a Switch for the re-routed supply otherwise you can no longer turn off the habitation stuff via the LCD console. If you put a switch in line you can mount it on the front of the charge unit and label it 'Habitation Cutoff Emergency Override' to make it look smart. You then switch this on if you want to use the habitation with the engine running and otherwise leave it off to retain the standard wiring. It will also not affect anything like leisure battery charging or step retraction. The LCD unit will still say 'engine running system disabled' but the electrics will work.

It all works a treat and takes about ten minutes and a very small modicum of electrical knowledge plus some crimpers, a bit of 2.5mm cable, a 25 amp quality switch (about ten quid) and some good quality spade connectors. There would be other ways to wire this using a relay so that it automatically switched when the engine comes on but this solution was enough for me. It now means I don't have to reset the satellite TV everytime I move the van two feet as I can leave all the electrics on and, of course, I can now emergency charge the leisure batteries without sitting in a 50k motorhome with a candle and a torch!

I can send photos if anyone wants them. It's a shame we need to resort to this sort of subterfuge to get around unwanted nanny laws and regulations...

Regards, Mark


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

Does the modification affect things like the step automatically housing, satelitte dish/ tracking solar panel housing or pump running with no water in the system?


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

Nothing is affected as the unit still thinks it's turning off. All you're doing is bypassing the switched power supply the habitation normally runs off by linking it to the permanent supply (from which the switched supply is fed from via a relay) with the new switch you add. The permanent supply is the same feed and normally runs things like the stereo and ignition circuits for the fridge.

If you leave the switch you will be adding off the whole thing will run as normal and if you turn it on then the habitation will work but the display will still say 'disabled engine running' etc. If you could be bothered you could add your own relay to do this when you turn the engine on and 'Hey Presto!' it would be completely automatic and hidden. I couldn't be bothered to do this so I just put a manual overide switch in for emergencies like battery charging after days of cloudy weather for example.

If you could be bothered to look around the board for long enough I'm sure it would be possible to find the feed to the relay which turns off the supply to the habitation area and disable it via a switch but, again, I couldn't be bothered to get this in depth as my mod does what I need and is very quick and easy to do.

All quite simple once you get the front off the unit and have a nose around.

I can send a couple of photos of the modification I've done if you want. PM me and I'll either post it here or send you something on email.

Cheers, Mark


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

Wouldn't a far simpler, and less technical idea, be to buy some of those round LED lights that are battery powered and stick one of those over each seat. Then who ever is sat there can have their own light and it isn't affecting each others comfort. 

If you have a dinette table up for them just fix three or four on a board, fasten the board to the ceiling above the table with Velcro pads and they can see to draw, eat or whatever. It saves messing about with the unit and prevents an insurance or warranty get out.


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

>>Wouldn't a far simpler, and less technical idea, 
>>be to buy some of those round LED lights that
>> are battery powered and stick one of those over 
>>each seat. Then who ever is sat there can have 
>>their own light and it isn't affecting each others comfort. 

The main reason I wanted to do this was to be able to charge the battery in an emergency without needing to sit in the van either using candles or LED lamps or other bodge jobs to see what I'm doing. I'd also still quite like to be able to watch my TV and make a cup of tea etc. etc.

It's not often I need to do this but I've been living in various motorhomes full time every summer for 6 or 7 years now and it's a fact of life that if you're going to live independantly without hook-up or indeed without ever touching a camp site then it's going to happen from time to time, almost always late at night when you need the blown air heating to run or whatever. An hour's charge from the engine will get you till the next day when you can either hope the sun will shine and run the solar panel or you can go for a drive to shops. I intensely dislike generators as they're so noisy so I won't carry one. I spend a great deal of time on isolated airfields that don't have their own power let alone a connection for my van so I've got to think of all eventualities. It's also extremely annoying to have to re-set the satellite TV and all the ancilliaries each time you start up the engine to move the vehicle a couple of feet for some reason.

As you can probably tell I have an intense problem with authority and the fact that some faceless bureacrat has sat behind a desk attempting to second-guess all the eventualities that I will face in my life using my own van and that I would be incapable of applying any sort of intelligence to how I decide to do things (like not putting the habitation lights on at night when driving for example) is motivation enough for me to try to defeat their valiant aims to wheedle into every aspect of my private life. Can't help it - it's just how I'm made.  

So putting LED's above each passenger seat won't work for what I'm trying to achieve but thanks for an elegant engineering suggestion none-the-less (joke!  )...

I'm going to post the photos as soon as I can get to my own computer and you can judge for yourselves if it's a worthwhile modification.

Regards, Mark


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## short-stick (Jul 23, 2007)

Mark,
Congratulations and well done for "beating bureaucracy". I too like many sensible motorhomers cannot believe that only the UK invokes such a silly design as disabling 12v in the rear of a motorhome if the engine is running whereas the vast majority of continentals who, lets face it, have far more experience at this than us, don't do such a thing. Perhaps we should all lobby the National Caravan Council who "invented" this design for a rethink, after all this is the only reason that UK Motorhome manufacturers and electronics companies implement it, I'm sure it also costs more money and adds complication!
Welcome to the club of "people who have bucked the system".
Now you can rustle up bacon and eggs and a pot of hot tea whilst watching the TV, with the lights on, sat on the flushable toilet, without a seatbelt on, whilst travelling.... Try it, it's fun! 
(I'm joking, but you can do all of these things if you want, we are all adults, but not all at once!)


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

In the same vein I also spent some time working out how to disable the seat belt alarm which annoyingly starts shouting its head off when you're trying to manouvre around a parking area. 

As with many things bureacratic it overplays its hand and thus renders itself useless. IF it would sound the alarm when I exceeded 20 mph or a reasonable level then it'd be very useful as I do often forget to belt up but the limit is set to a stupid 5 mph so it bugs the hell out of me at walking pace - something you do quite a lot of in a motorhome when pitching up.

The only solution for someone like me who can't stand busy-body government has been to completely disable it thus making a quite useful safety addition completely useless because a long line of people were doubtless trying to cover their backsides in the event of trouble so a reasonable 'adult' threshold that we would have all respected got slowly bought down to one where there could be no repercussions for anybody involved at a future date. The fact that owners will now cut the cables or do up the seatbelt behind the seat (it's not this easy on a Fiat X2/50 but you get the idea) never seems to enter these people's heads as they think we all, like sheep, unflinchingly follow their edicts.

A curse on all their doubtless well regulated and exceedingly boring houses...

Cheers, Mark


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

To be honest Mark, that's the limit OF my engineering solutions!  I put fuel in on one side, turn a key on the other and as if by magic a noise starts from the front, I then press another pedal, move a lever and the van moves forwards! Amazing!

I agree with the comments about the seat belt alarm too, I have used the wearing the seatbelt behind me but would, in all seriousness, NEVER cut any wiring to a seatbelt in a modern vehicle. If you don't know what you are doing it will fire the seatbelt tightener, operate the airbag and then you really are up poo creek!


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## skiboycey (May 21, 2009)

Luckily I do know what I'm doing. The seat belt accelerometer is sat beside the seat on the left on a new Fiat and is fired by a rapid deceleration moving a bob weight so it makes a contact as long as the seat belt is already fastened. There's a logic gate to tell it this which works via a ballast resistor of which I measured the various loads and resistances... Unusually there is no seat pressure switch so it doesn't care if the passenger is belted up. If you do things wrong the airbags don't work, either, so it's certainly not just a case of cutting a wire...

It's why I said it's not as easy as just fastening the belt behind the seat on an X 2/50. Modern vehicles are complex, to be sure, but nowhere near as complex as a modern computer operating system (especially a server controlling hundreds of machines) and many technically minded people happily delve into those without dire repercussions. The doom-sayers always tell you (not yourself I hasten to add) that fiddling with 'modern' vehicles is a minefield but if, like myself, you've buggered around with a few aeroplanes, on which your life truly depends when using them, you can have quite a bit of confidence in a tiddly little seat belt alarm or an intrusive electrical cutoff device...

I do take your point if you're unlucky enough to be non-techinically competant, though. I'd probably be happier if I was then I could just accept meddling engineering as an unchangeable and leave it at that and get on with my holiday. Knowing I can change it is actually quite annoying at times...  

Cheers, Mark


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## Annsman (Nov 8, 2007)

Y'see, now that's why I have big respect for engineering types, they know lots of STUFF and how things work!

I'd much rather pay someone like Mark to fix things properly than bodge it up myself and that's also why you'll never see me under my van or it's bonnet with a spanner in my hand! 8O 

My brother fixes helicopters for a living too, he is so confident of his knowledge he even goes up in them, sometimes!


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## VOLKSLT (Dec 13, 2008)

*AUTOTRAIL MIAMI New To Us 07*

Hi,Very interested in the post .We have a Autotrail Miami 740s on a Renault Master 2.3 2007. I cannot believe that a company like Autotrail would use the the Vehicle Batt. to run some of the habitation electricals,
We do a lot of wild camping and so far in the 3 mounths of owning the van I cannot see if the Batts will cope with the way it has been wired up.
The heating system for excample needs the batts. to run a fan, some of the lighting and other electricals are wired to the Vehicle Batt.
Has any one had any exsperiance of splitting it ,and running the habitation side off the leasure side as it should be
Regards Derek


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## Sargent (Feb 1, 2008)

Hi VOLKSLT, I don't believe that some of lights etc should be connected to the vehicle battery so it appears that there may be something incorrectly connected or similar. 
The control panel allows you to select either the vehicle or the leisure batteries but you need to select the vehicle (ie a conscious decision) to draw from the vehicle.
If you send me a PM or call our technical people who should be able to assist in establishing the problem.
Tel 01482 678981

Best regards

Ian Sargent


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