# Is Your Payload A Load Of "Pants"???



## 101411 (Oct 15, 2006)

Hi All

Just read a sad tale on here about a chap with a Hymer who loaded it it up with the usual stuff to go away with a full tank of fuel and a full tank of water and went to get it weighed.

Result..................overloaded!!!

Bearing in mind that most m/h carry 4 passengers and he didn't have his bike rack and small scooter on the back either or as he put it "a loaf of bread in the cupboard" and was already overloaded I was just wondering how many other owners have this problem and how common it is??

You spend umpty thousands of pounds on a m/h (i assume his is a big one) only to find that if you fill it up with anything more than helium balloons you are breaking the law!!! 

I have never owned a Euro m/h and always had RVs so its not something ive ever had to worry about but it does make you wonder how the manufacturers can supply a vehicle that is illegal when fully loaded as it was designed to be?

Im sure this only applies to the bigger m/h but surely even the small ones must suffer to some extend as well with this issue with there smaller carrying capacity and lower rated axles/tyres

Let the debate begin!!!!!

Dazzer


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## Waleem (Nov 1, 2006)

In my humble opinion, four berth vans that arent even capable of carrying four people (Let alone their luggage) is not fit for purpose. The manufacturers of such vans should not be allowed to get away with it. People on this list are by and large aware of payload limitations (Mainly because it crops up so much in the forums) but what about those motorhomers (The majority??) who are not only unaware of it, but also are not told by their supplying dealers ? They are liable in law for something they know nothing about.
It really annoys me.......... :evil:


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

I don't think there is a debate to be had. The issue is simply one of manufacturer/dealer maximising profit versus caveat emptor.

And the greater mystery to me is not why do manufacturers/ dealers get away with it (answer - because they can), but why do so many people throw money at their second largest purchase in life without much thought.

Now that I genuinely WOULD be interested in appreciating, simply because I don't understand it.

Dave


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## LC1962 (Oct 6, 2005)

DABurleigh said:


> I don't think there is a debate to be had. The issue is simply one of manufacturer/dealer maximising profit versus caveat emptor.
> 
> And the greater mystery to me is not why do manufacturers/ dealers get away with it (answer - because they can), but why do so many people throw money at their second largest purchase in life without much thought.
> 
> ...


I think the answer to that is pretty simple Dave, because they are blissfully ignorant of the vehicles limitations. They see a van and vans are designed to carry weight. The dealers and manufacturers aren't going to volunteer information if they are not asked the question, and most buyers are not clued up enough to ask....unless they have read the forums that is.

The relevant specs will no doubt be printed somewhere in the brochures but will not be given the same hype as the furnishings, layout and gadgets which, MOST people look to first and foremost.

As you rightly say......caveat emptor


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

There is also an element of blame to be aimed at the buyers. Many buyers want the maximum number of gadgets, gizmos and home comforts. They also want solid, home-like furniture and fittings. 

Given that the van chassis is only designed to carry a set load then once all these have been fitted there is not a lot left for the buyer to add his own things. 

I wonder if manufacturers are looking at alternative materials to make furniture and so on from ? Modern plastics are lighter and more robust than veneered chipboard and could be moulded to make furniture and fittings for example. 

G


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## vicdicdoc (May 14, 2005)

Whilst I fully agree that its up to the buyer to confirm that there is sufficient weight allowance - I never double-checked before this as the chap I bought the van from used to carry his motorcycle on the [supplied] carrier & he assured me that there was plenty of spare weight allowance [foolish I know to just take his word] . . I'm contacting Hymer to see if I can find out more info on my van & looking into maybe re-plating


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## 102098 (Dec 13, 2006)

As has been said, I think lots of people are blissfully unaware and keep loading their van up until the things starts to sag at the back! What would be a better way of giving the payload would be for each manufacturer to take the number of berths available and multiply by, let's say, 80Kg, add this to the base vehicle weight once built and deduct that figure from the GVW, then list the balance as 'actual' payload.

I carried out 4 months of research before buying a 2nd hand m/h and 1 of my biggest concerns was payload since I'm full timing.


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## pneumatician (May 1, 2005)

*Weight Limits & Overloading*

I have been through this problem with our last vehicle an Autosleeper Pollensa.
I decided to get it replated. SVTech said it had already been uprated but could not understand how Autosleeper got it to 3200kg when the stated max by Peugeot was 3000kg. I was asked by SVtech to contact Autosleeper to find out what mods had been carried out to the chassis. That was about 5 months ago after several phone calls mails etc still had no reply or confirmation.

Changed the van now but will always wonder if it had in fact been uprated.

Steve


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

European motorhomes are by in large built on existing vans and van chassis.. they are therefore constrained to the weight limits set by the donor vehicles. 

A class RVs generally use a purpose built chassis, the manufacturer has done his sums and ordered a chassis that is 'fit for purpose' .. this is reflected in the higher cost. 

It is a disgrace that vehicles are sold which if used 'normally' are grossly over laden.. are the construction and use regs not being flouted by the manufacturers ?


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"are the construction and use regs not being flouted by the manufacturers ?"

No, it is not their job to specify adequate payload, which is a user requirement.

That said, without looking I am ignorant of the legal source of the changes around 4 years ago (IIRC) that stipulated definitions and consistency in motorhome payload matters. I remember Hymer brochures changed significantly in the technical specifications section at that point.

Dave
Edit - Hymer brochures not manuals


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## geraldandannie (Jun 4, 2006)

And the questions about manufacturers legality are largely irrelevent.

They will argue that even a four berth motohrome is legally and practically able to sleep four people. How you transport them to the destination (i.e. if you carry them and all their stuff on board) is not their concern.

I think it's a slightly different matter when they supply seatbelts for four or six people. Then they're saying you can carry this number of people on board, so it should be possible to do this with at least half a tank of fuel too.

I think replating is a fairly simple job, and I'm sure Don Madge posted something a while ago where it could be done over the phone for not much money. I'll try to find this later.

Gerald


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## 101392 (Oct 14, 2006)

Do RVs have payloads? Just interested.

Tina S


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## 101411 (Oct 15, 2006)

Yes RVs have a "proper" payload.

My Chateau for instance weights 5180kg when fully loaded with fuel and water. Max weight is 6375kg and able to tow up to 9100kgs total weight.

RVs are VERY different from Euro m/hs as they are usually built on a truck or coach chassis which is more than capable of carrying anything you want to throw at (or in!!) it.

The Yanks have a simple solution to the problem. Build the motorhome and weigh it then go find a chassis and engine/gearbox combo capable of doing the job and carrying a decent load of extras as well.

The Euro manufacturers have a slighty different approach!!!!

Dazzer


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## 101392 (Oct 14, 2006)

thanks dazzer, have only had my hymer 3 months but already fancy an RV!

Tina S


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## 101411 (Oct 15, 2006)

Hi Tina

Shame you didnt see the light before you bought the Hymer!!!

Once youve owned 1 you will wonder why you ever bothered with a Euro m/h!!

Dazzer


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## sailor (Aug 23, 2005)

The other influencer here is the fact that over 3500kg mgw:

- In many countries speed limits are lower
- In many countries tolls are higher
- in many countries you need an extra test to drive them at all.

So lots of European manufacturers ( and buyers) keep the MGW to 3500 for very good reasons, even though this can reduce payloads.

In some cases the identical van is sold in different countries with different MGW (My CI is an example of this, here the MGW is 3800 but in Italy, france and others it is 3500.)

Another problem is that there is no leeway in the MGW figure, but the unladen figure is allowed a 5% leeway. So a van with unladen weight of 3000 could legitimately be 3150, making the actual allowed payload 150kg less than you might think.

Another contributor said it is irresponsible of manufacturers to provide 4 berths but not enough payload for 4 people. Personally I would also argue that it is irresponsible of manufatcurers to have 4 berths but only 2 belted seats - but lots of British manufacturers do this (autocruise, autotrail etc)

Personally I think anyone sho does not go into weights when buying should! It really is the user who is responsible for getting it right .

JeffO


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## bozerboy (Feb 23, 2007)

*payloads /private light goods/private heavy goods??*

With all the concern regards carying capacity of vehicles, am I right in that the majority of motorhomes are rated as maximun "ALL UP" weight as being 3500kg :?: So as to come into the private light goods catagory :!: 
At what stage do they change to Private Heavy Goods :?: 
I appreciate that there are differences regards driving licence entitlement/requirements for the 2 classes :!: 
Would I be correct in that once into the PHG rating the maximum "All Up" weight one can drive is then 7500Kg.
I am a bit confused  for each of the 2 catagories are referred to as GOODS What costitutes as being a Motor Home?
My next question is what other limitations are placed on HPG rated motorhomes Compared with Goods Vehicles of similar weight rating?


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## Invicta (Feb 9, 2006)

As I have previously posted on another thread, I had a 4 berth M/C purpose built on a Mercedes Sprinter to take two electric mobility scooters. I had asked repeatedly if the chassis was suitable for the additional weight of these and was assuranced that it was. 

When I eventually took delivery of the M/C and got it home from Yorkshire I took it to a local Mercedes Dealer . There it was weighed only to find-guess what-it was overweight with 4 passengers and only one scooter in it! The addition of the underfloor electric lift had obviously not been calculated. Being overweight had invalidated the Mercedes guarantee and with it my insurance. 

Following my urgent phone call, the builder of the M/C came down to Kent to collect the vehicle and took it away to have it adapted to carry 5.800 kg as opposed to the original 5.500kg. This improved the situation to some extent but I was having to weigh everything going into it as the limit was very soon reached. 

The weight became such an issue that I made the reluctant decision to sell the 'van but not before telling prospective purchasers why I was selling it. It was bought by a couple, the wife being so severely disabled that she could only use a manual wheelchair. Weight was not therefore a problem for them.

Last year I attended the Mobility Roadshow at Kemble Airport. My grandson who was accompanying me spotted the Mercedes M/C there. It had been sold on to a person who was at the show as a trader. It was obvious that he was carrying all the goods and the paraphenalia that went with the business, including a Gazebo, tables, chairs, his own wheelchair in the 'van.

I felt I had a responsibility to tell him why I had sold the 'van which I did but he didn't appear to be in the least concerned. He said that he had travelled extensively in the 'van (from its appearance it certainly looked like it), without any problems. I asked him about his insurance but from his reply it was obvious from his attitude he saw me as an interfering busybody so I walked away wondering if the person who had sold the 'van to him had discussed the weight problem as I had done with the person who bought it from me. 

I feel that as responsible M/C, R/V owners we have a responsibility to alert prospective purchases of these vehicles about weight restrictions. We should also be campaigning to ensure that every berth has the appropriate number of seat belts fitted. By doing so we might just be saving lives!


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*Payload*

Hello

Slightly off topic, I think the way the info is portrayed to the customer is, at best confusing.

Some manufacturers show their motorhome as "weight at factory" and then give the "maximum authorised mass", the difference is obviously a high figure.

Other manufacturers quote the "mass in running order" (vehicle plus allowance for driver, and water/gas/deiesel tanks 90% full) and also the maximum authorised mass.

It would be far better if there was an industry standard, in plain English!

Example

Empty vehicle weighs..........

Max weight of vehicle fully laden......

Payload.........

etc

Russell


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## 101392 (Oct 14, 2006)

Dazzer - am happy with the Hymer, hubbie would never have gone for an RV and never will - he is already talking of only doing 'the motorhome thing for another 10 years (I think he has a shock coming!)

Tina S


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

We have just ordered a 2007 Hymer and Pay load was one of the things I checked. It clearly states all the relevent weights in the 2007 brochure and shows our van a C622CL as having a pay load of 550 kgs, it also states that this is with a driver of 75kgs and full fresh water, fuel and gas. The van is a 6 berth so it sould be perfectable feasable for us to travel with 6 people on board and our luggage. I am aware the the actual pay load might be reduced with some of the options fitted, but the brochure does give weights for these options. So it is just a case of adding your options up and subtracting these of the pay load. In addition to this the laiden weight is upgradable to 3850 kgs as that is the original chassis weight.
So as far as I am concerned Hymer have been upfront with all weight information. I looked at many M/Hs and I found in most cases these figures were available. I would presume that things have improved with information or why would anyone but some thing that they could not legally use.

PS. I have contacted Ford and they have informed me that I could upgrade to 4250 laden weight if I wanted to. Mabe the newer chassis have better weight carrying abilities.

Richard...


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## Wanderwagon3 (May 27, 2005)

*As Topic*

Evening All

Our most important criteria when choosing our current camper van was pay load. We had had an excellent "Duetto" for 6 ½ years with a pay load of 361 kgs not a lot!!

Our Current campincar, before our first mainland Europe trip, was weighed at local Waste Management Facility. Overflowing H2O tank, over ½ full diesel,driver,navigator stores and kit and wheel chair and we weighed in at 2080kgs on scales calibrated (by chance the day before) Plated weight 3500kgs therefore room for 50 boxes of wine! For those interested see Owners Vehicle Reports.

Ken .............. with Wanderwagon3


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## Wanderwagon3 (May 27, 2005)

*AS topic*

Richard

Your post above mine.

Just a thought.... is your licence upratable to 3850kgs??

Ken.with Wanderwgaon3


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## wobby (May 1, 2005)

I didn't go for a RV because of their size narrow roads me and an RV don't 
go together. Instead I've gone for a 7.6 mte with tag axle as I learnt my lesson on a much cheaper 1993 Hymer 544 which had a very poor payload. 
My new MH will have a payload of over 1000 kl and thats after all the extras are fitted so I won't be caught out again.


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## 94055 (May 1, 2005)

> weight is upgradable to 3850 kgs as that is the original chassis weight.
> So as far as I am concerned Hymer have been upfront with all weight information. I looked at many M/Hs and I found in most cases these figures were available. I would presume that things have improved with information or why would anyone but some thing that they could not legally use.
> 
> PS. I have contacted Ford and they have informed me that I could upgrade to 4250 laden weight if I wanted to. Mabe the newer chassis have better weight carrying abilities.


Richard

I would upgrade yours to the highest you can, that is if you are allowed to drive it at that gross weight.

IMO

Steve


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## shortcircuit (Mar 19, 2006)

I would be interested to no of how many have actually been stopped and weighed. Is the another "I've been gassed"


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## RichardnGill (Aug 31, 2006)

> Richard
> 
> I would upgrade yours to the highest you can, that is if you are allowed to drive it at that gross weight.





> Just a thought.... is your licence upratable to 3850kgs??


I am not too worried about the weight at the moment as there will only be 4 of us + the dog using our van and we have not got anything to put in it yet. My plan was to get all of us in with our gear and fuel/water etc and then see what is actually weighs. I can drive up to 7500kgs so no probs there and as I have said before with the van being german it is currently only at 3500kgs to be more popular in the home land. As I have checked the normal weight for the chassis would be 3850 kgs so it will easy upgrade. The only down side will be reduced speed limits when in foreign parts.
There are plenty of vans out there with less than 400kgs pay load and with all my options on I will have 497kgs so I am not too worried at the moment, or should I be?

Richard...


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## 94055 (May 1, 2005)

Richard
To upgrade later would cost £200 approx
If you upgrade now it will cost? Get it as part of the deal. If it is new it should cost nothing, I think!
What have you got to lose?
Ok slower top speed but cheaper road tax and no worries of...Am I, Are'nt I?

Steve

ps
You may want to carry a scooter or ???????
I always said, no I won't and ........Yes I did 8O


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Its not only the manufacturers and dealers who sell them that are at fault.

Adria Vision 707 - user payload 220kg

This van won the.....

2006 Which Motorcaravan 'Motorhome of the Year'.

and the

2006 Caravan Club Design & Drive Awards 'Best A Class'.

pete


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

A sobering thought, Pete. Just goes to prove whose side the magazines are on.

Dave


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## LC1962 (Oct 6, 2005)

DABurleigh said:


> A sobering thought, Pete. Just goes to prove whose side the magazines are on.
> 
> Dave


You sober again tonight Dave? :lol: :wink:

James was punching a calculator after Pete's post.....2 average sized adults, a tank of fuel, a few essentials and.....well, it makes owning an RV so much more appealing (but of course we are biased) :lol:


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## Invicta (Feb 9, 2006)

I totally agree with your last comment LC1962 ! 

As the owner of an R/V, no more worries about what I can and cannot carry regarding weight. 

I have had my Fourwinds Siesta, 26' in length with its double slide outs, for a year and have travelled both in France and the UK, including narrow roads in North Wales, 

I feel I now have the ideal van for my purpose. Not too large for UK roads and not too small to carry everything bar the kitchen sink!


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## Wanderwagon3 (May 27, 2005)

*As Topic more or less*

Good day All

I refer to " Short Circuits " comment a few posts above.

Like most things eg beam benders,yellow vests, overloading

, spare specs,triangles etc 1000s of us may well get away with not conforming to the appropriate laws.

BUT have a serious accident and the law and insurance companies will take you and your rig apart....one lot to jail you the other to say you're not road
road legal and wont pay out the insurance!

Its your risk!

Ken..........with Wanderwagon3 in philosophical mode!


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

shortcircuit said:


> I would be interested to no of how many have actually been stopped and weighed.


I've always thought of weighbridges as pretty obvious things - like the one we used to use run by VOSA. The other day we went to the new trade waste area of the local tip. There the weighbridge looked like a silvered section of road. Thinking about it, it looked very like a section of the road in the customs shed area at Dover docks. We've been asked to drive through that area at least twice that I can remember.

I wonder if many of us have been weighed without knowing about it ?

G


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