# Another charger question



## epavelin

My camper van has no built-in charger/PSU, and I am thinking of fitting an intelligent mains charger to provide power when on hook-up.

My van, like most, has a split-charge relay for charging the leisure battery from the alternator. I was wondering whether there is any risk of the charger damaging the alternator during its 14.4V charging stage?

Sorry if that's a stupid question, but I don't know much about auto electrics!

Cheers!
Ed.


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## 91929

*Chargers*

No it isnt a stupid question
I have somewhere a wiring diagram for charging circuits

It is not too difficult to understand if you are OK with electrical circuits, If not it may be a bit complex

The you may require the help of a sparks to connect up the bits

May just require a change over switchto change from Van alternator to mains supply & a transformer to bring the mains down to 12V


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## 88724

Hi Ed

What do you mean by *inteligent* charger?, most chargers if you were to use them on mains hook up as a power supply could prove dangerous.

George


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## epavelin

Hi George,
I am looking at a 20-Amp 3-stage charger/PSU, supplied by Caravan and Leisure Technology. According to them, it is designed to charge the battery and power the 12v system load up to 300W. Price seems pretty good too.

The unit is actually made by Nordelettronica of Italy.

Ed.


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## 88724

Hi Ed

I am trying to look over the bumpf on the site, unfortunately the pdf's are print house size so it will take a while for me to read the data, the first page tells me the guy as a fair idea about batteries and charging.

He does drop a couple of bloopers

1/ he thinks proper leisure batteries should cost £95 to £125

2/ he thinks the reasons that caravans and motorhomes are not fitted with chargers is

a) Cost (not true) most of the rubbish fitted Zig and Plug ins etc is actually more expensive than decent gear !

b) that the rules come via EEC that the max voltage should be 13.8v, laterly there are EEC regs but these are mainly due to idiotproofing on the early 12v systems when the battery was only a capacitor and all caravans were expected to be hooked up on sites etc.

He is well on form when discussing 3 Stage Chargers, then goes and spoils it all by reccomending an Inteligent Bench charger, this is as I say above possibly very dangerous.

Looking into Nordelectric now this appears to be an inteligent charger (inteligent is adman speak, and isnt anything like inteligent it only changes stages due to Ohms law, this is its biggest downfall as a Power supply and the reason they can become dangerous)

Nordelectronic are a windings firm they make transformers, this unit as a bench charger would charge your battery well, used as a power supply.

Now if you want a much cheaper demo of why this could prove highley dangerous, do you know anyone who owns an Halfords battery "Inteligent" charger?

If so borrow it, connect up on a bench (The only place you should use these chargers thats why they are called bench chargers (NOT TO BE USED IN VEHICLES) )

"Fully" charge the battery, the voltage will drop to 13.8v fantastic, come back the next day it will still be 13.8v

But now switch on a 12v TV, the charger will Jump back to Boost voltage even though the battery is fully charged, now a "fully" charged battery is being boosted it will gas like crazy, it will be getting warm, electrolyte is being evapourated away, if this gets down to plates, could cause buckling, short between plates, explosion, batteries explode with a similar expansion rate to dynomite, if you are nearby you will wish it had of been dynomite because dynomite does not throw lead shrapnel laced with sulphuric acid.

BTW do not fully follow the above experiment a few mins with TV on will show you that what ~I say is true.

Either buy the expensive but weak zig type or a Sterling or similar 4 stage Charger/Power supply that is specifically made for the Job.

George


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## 88724

Hi Ed

Where do they say that the Nordelec is 3 Stage? I have searched all over and cant find that said anywhere.

George


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## 88941

Hi All

Dont know if this really relevent but working in the marine industry i know this is quality equipment and being of the ethos that in general you get what you pay for check out http://www.victronenergy.com/index.htm (other power solutions are available) personally i have never had a problem with these....

Keith


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## epavelin

Just to add some more info on these chargers, this is what the distributor said in answer to some questions I asked:

"The charger is capable of charging your leisure battery whilst running
the 12v system load there is a proviso that the load needs to be at or less than 200w approx (or 300w for part 2002).
The charger is designed to support your 12v load when the battery is
disconnected and powered by 230v input.
Finally you can leave the charger switched on to charge your battery
continuously as it is intelligent and will recognise the charge state of
the battery and adjust the power level accordingly."

They also confirmed that it is a 3-stage charger.

Ed.


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## epavelin

George,
quick question by the way:
How does decent a charger/PSU (say Sterling, for example) know not to switch back to 14.4V when a load is applied? How does it tell the difference between a voltage drop due to an external load, or a drop due to a discharged battery?

Both scenarios (appliance load, or discharged battery) presumably "look" the same to the charger- i.e. both lead to a voltage drop at the charger output terminals... so how does it know the difference?

Cheers,
Ed.


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## Brambles

I think you will find the Nordelettronica units mentioned are suitable. As there is doubt and the distributor might be flogging the wrong thing why not email the manufacturer at

[email protected]

I requested information and specifications for a 200W TE43 which is a 200 watt charger/power supply designed for Motorhomes.

One thing that does concern me is the proviso the power drawn does not go above that of the charger unit. It may be the distributor is saying this if you wish to retain charge in the battery. On the TE43 the full spec states that if the power drawn is greater than the power supply then the battery will provide the extra power.


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## 88724

Hi Ed

"How does decent a charger/PSU (say Sterling, for example) know not to switch back to 14.4V when a load is applied? "

I really dont know, but it does work! I have tested both types. BTW The Sterling as a fourth ~Stage Power supply, which means that it will supply full current but remain at the 13.8v level. It will not revert to charging unless the battery require it.

From the evidence (and there isnt much of it) Nordelletronica are a transformer windings company.

Nowhere on the web does it say they they are multi stage. BTW ring Halfords they will tell you theirs is inteligent 4 stage when its definately not.

Nowhere does it say they are switch mode.

The fact you can run it without battery also suggests it is not switch Mode.

Any transformer used to charge will alter the voltage as the battery charges, its a function of Ohms law, its how the alternator works, the fact that it changes voltage does not make it a multi stage charger.

Victron is good Quality Marine kit, So is Sterling.

Victron use a poor rating system on there invertor chargers amongst other items, ie they say on the box that its a 3000w invertor in reality at the proper rating its a 2000w invertor.

Buy a Sterling 3000w invertor and thats exactly what you get, a 3000 invertor that will run at that rating 24/7 @ 40 degrees C

Soon someone will come along and tell you that Victron do publish the info and this is true if you were to look on the web Victron do admit the real figures, but if you were in a shop and the was a Victron product on the shelf next to a Sterling product, both Stating 3000w on the box you would wrongly assume they were the same.

Victron is though a Quality product, it is also very expensive

Sterling Quality Product, but a lot more reasonably priced.

George

Here is some more info re ratings with links to Victron etc. http://www.motorhomefacts.com/posts1324-30.html


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## Brambles

George - when a 3 state charger reaches 14.4 volts it folds back to 13.8 volts. It does not go back into the high charge state again until the voltage drops below a set level. If you were to put on a very heavy load to reduce the voltage enough it would indeed go back into the high charge rate again. Nothings infalliable.

Nordelettronica do a lot more than just wind transformers. They are very big on supplying , especially Italian Motorhomes and Caravan manufacturers with Electronic modules. E.G. Chargers and power supplies, fuse and relay boxes, and electronic control panels. Their Web presence is minimal as they are really are a supplier to Original Equipment manufactures and not the aftermarket, wholesale or retail.


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## 88724

Hi Brambles

I am talking about a 4 stage Sterling and actually testing/using and the same with the so called "inteligent chargers" 

when tested the Sterling behaves properly, the "inteligent" unit Jumps to boost.

I never said that all Nord do is wind transformers, that is the core business though, they also supply hand printers and the like, What you wont find is much if any info on the ":charger" part

If they supply manufacturers its with the normal poor power supply/"chargers" these only put out 13.8v

No Manufacturer includes a proper 3 or more stage charger, this as been discussed before and no-one as yet come forward and shown a proper charger in a standard motorhome regardless of price. None that I am aware of even fit something that exceeeds 13.8v ever.

George


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## Maxonian

Hi George,



> No Manufacturer includes a proper 3 or more stage charger, this as been discussed before and no-one as yet come forward and shown a proper charger in a standard motorhome regardless of price. None that I am aware of even fit something that exceeeds 13.8v ever.


The 3 stage charger fitted to my Hymer as standard (and I assume fitted to lots of other Hymers) is manufactured by Schaudt GmbH. The model number is EBL 99 D and it has a maximum charging voltage of 14.3V.

I don't know (or care) how intelligent it is, but since the engine always starts, and the lights always work in the the MH, I am satisfied that it is doing what it is supposed to do.

Now, as to whether it's charging the batteries to 80% or 100% - who cares - lifes too short.

Ciao

Raymond


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## Brambles

George,

I have a nordelettronica TE43 200Watt charger/ supply. It is 3 state switch mode and charges to 14.4 volts. It is supplied as standard in many motorhomes.

I believe Nordelettronica Srl that is involved in handheld printers is a completely different company from Nordelettronica Benettetti.


Regards, Jon.


edits - just to correct spelling


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## 88724

Hi Maxonnian

Ring up and ask, numbers on their website, they dont make a 3 stage charger thats direct from the Horses mouth, its the German equivilent of a ZIG unit.

"Now, as to whether it's charging the batteries to 80% or 100% - who cares - lifes too short."

If your happy Ray thats great, many people are not how many people copmplain of battery failures and running out of juice on the shortest of trips.

The unit you refer too is definately OK in a motorhome and Safe, what worries me is when people are steered towards what amounts to a bench charger which could prove dangerous.

I cant debunk the Nord unit as they dont answer their phones, but nowhere is it ever refered to as switch mode charger or as a multi stage charger.

Look at any other charger site, if its switch mode and three stage its written in big letters to let you know, the Nord is strangely lacking in detail.

http://www.mastervolt.co.uk/chargers/index.asp

Have a look here http://www.mhpower.com.au/Chargers/ykcharger.html this manu realises the danger and adds a note about boost float switch over being 1 amp now switching on a light in this situation would iniate boost on a full battery hmm big bang waiting to happen. BTW Ray this is one of the reasons I keep bringing this up is the potential DANGER not that I really give a flying one whethor you cant watch corry cos the batteries flat.

Have a look here http://www.google.com/search?q=Switch+mode+charger&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8, if its switch mode they say and if its multi stage they say, ignore inteligent they areanything but.

At the end of the day its your money, batteries and safety.

George


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## epavelin

"I cant debunk the Nord unit as they dont answer their phones, but nowhere is it ever refered to as switch mode charger or as a multi stage charger. "

What about this from the Caravan and Leisure Technology website? (Link Here)-

"Our innovative *multi stage* battery chargers are specifically designed for caravans and motor homes to maximise charge rates and extend battery life. Manufactured in Europe our chargers come with a 1 year warranty and have been adopted as standard products by the UK's leading caravan manufacturer."

Ed.


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## 88724

Hi 

Thats the same claim Halfords make because the charger will charge at a higher rate and then lower in relation to battery resistance and charge level they claim multi stage charging.


All UK Caravans that claim NCC aproval would not be able to use the "charger" if it does put out 14,4v NCC aproval specifically forbids anything over 13.8v, its the initial reason why all caravans and motorhomes have such naff chargers.

So is the UK's leading Caravan manufacturer going to risk losing NCC aproval ? hmmm interesting


Have rang and asked them to fax me a spec sheet, they are getting back to me.


George


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## epavelin

Hi George,
Thanks, I will be interested to see what the spec sheet says.

By the way, I have never seen a Halfords charger described as multi stage. They describe them as "fully automatic", and I quite understand that that is a different thing altogether.

Cheers,
Ed.


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## Maxonian

> Ring up and ask, numbers on their website, they dont make a 3 stage charger thats direct from the Horses mouth, its the German equivilent of a ZIG unit


I don't need to ring them because I have their instruction manual for the charger.

The manual clearly states that it is a 3 stage switch mode charger.

If you contact them they will send you the manual as a .pdf (in English).

Raymond


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## 88724

Hi Ray

Was Just about to ring and ask again, when I spotted this








Just below the EBL100 It says IUoU which means it is indeed a 3 stage charger, So the first actual proper charger in a Professional manafactured campervan/motorhome.

Just rang Camp & Leisure to chase, it appears from the spec that its now a "two stage" "inteligent charger, but that sounds very much like the alternator version of "2 stage" ie the whole thing works by battery resistance ie "inteligent"

ie Applies ampage at higher voltage till internal resistance drops then drops back to 13.8 ie theres no inteligence about it.

They have promised to email the PDF watch this space.

George


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## 88724

Hi Ed

They have confirmed by phone that its not a 3 stage charger, at first it definately was, after I Asked for written confirmation it is now a 14.4 v which drops back to 13.8 v this was read from a pdf, I asked if they could email the pdf to me as this doesnt sound like a "staged charger" more like your average (cheapo) inteligent charger, the pdf was supposed to be sent to me over 2 hours ago, still no sign of it yet.

George


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## 89813

Well all I can say George is you must have a huge phone bill 8-[


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## 88781

This is the one we have fitted.

MOBITRONIC automatic charger +1 with modified IU0U curve, 15 A

Battery outputs: one plus one 1 A output for starter battery 
Input voltage range: 207-253 V/50-60 Hz 
End-of-charging voltage: 14.4 V/14.8 V ± 0.05 V 
Float charging voltage: 13.8 V ± 0.05 V 
Max. battery capacity: 150 Ah 
U0 phase limited at: 4 h eller 8 h 
Max. charging current: 15 A ± 0.5 A 
Operating temperature range: 0-50°C 
Dimensions (WxHxD): 200 x 60 x 260 mm 
Weight: 2,4 2.4 kg 
Quality features: Overload and short circuit protection, sleep mode 
Test marks: CE Modified IU0U curve optimised for charging gel, wet and absorbent glass mat batteries

Remote control and temperature sensors

http://www.waeco.com/pages/products/el/el.htm


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## 88724

Hi

Here is the word document? Yesterday this was a pdf

BATTERY CHARGER 200W NE 143

Read the instruction leaflet carefully before recharging.
For indoor use only.

DESCRIPTION:
The NE 143 is a Power Supply/Charger for lead storage batteries. The batteries must have nominal voltage of 12V and a capacity of no less than 45Ah.

OPERATION:
The battery charger uses an algorithm which makes it possible to significantly reduce recharging time and avoid permanent damage to batteries.
It starts charging at maximum current until the battery reaches a voltage value of 14.4V, then charging takes place at a constant voltage of 13.8V. In this state the recharge current gradually decreases and the battery can be left permanently connected to the charger without causing it any damage.
When it is fitted to a battery the power supply immediately provides the required current, so that the battery does not go flat (this is so only if the charging current is lower than the maximum current the power supplier can deliver, otherwise the battery will go flat in any case with an amount of current equal to the difference between I LOAD –I BATTERY CHARGER).
The NE 143 battery charger also operates as a power supply with fixed output current and voltage limited to 13.8V.

ATTENTION:
_ Keep the equipment in a dry, well-aired place.
• Do not carry out any maintenance without disconnecting from the 230V mains.
• Do not recharge batteries that are not rechargeable.
• Disconnect the power supply before connecting or disconnecting the battery connection.
• When acid lead batteries are charged an explosive gas is produced internally: avoid flames or sparks and make sure the battery is in a well-aired place.

If the power supply wire or battery connection clamps are damaged they must be replaced with items of the same type, available from the manufacturer or after-sales service.

TECHNICAL CHARACTERISTICS:
• Input 230V + 20% 50/60Hz 1.5A
• Maximum power: 200W
• Maximum output current: 15A continuous (17A with temperature compensation)
• Operating cc voltage at end of recharge: 14.4V
• Maintenance voltage: 13.8V
• Auxiliary output 12V + if main is present

PROTECTION:
• Input fuse: 5A 250V Delayed 5x20 (internal fuse)
• Protection from pole inversion, with 30A auto type fuse (internal fuse)
2.



• Overloading protection
• Short circuit protection
• Overheating protection

CONNECTIONS:
• 230V input: Mate-N-Lok 3-pole AMP connector
• 12V output: Fastin Faston 3-way connector (Red: (+), Black: (-), 
White: Power On.
We recommend short connections between the power supplier and battery, with 6 mm2 wire.

DIMENSIONS and WEIGHT:
• 165 x 190 x H70mm 1.5Kg

endquote

The email contained the following disclaimer.

All advice given by Caravan and Leisure Technology is done so on the understanding that the company and its employees and advisors are in no way responsible or liable for the outcome or actions taken by any individual or company upon receipt of written or verbal advice given.

Now following the charge pattern thru

Charges at full current till terminal voltage reaches 14.4 volts, then drops to 13.8v and the current diminishes

Seems to me that this is pretty much same as Halfords charger and again no mention of switch mode and suddenly not a 3 stage charger any more.

Someone here as got one of these fitted, could they test? ie fully charge battery with absolutely no load, then switch on a light if this immediately jumps to boost.

Mandy and Dave 

How much did the Moby cost?

George


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## 88781

Dont know what they cost George, it was already fitted whe I bought the Machzone.

Will try to find out for you,

Rgds M&D


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## epavelin

Hi,
I just received a reply from an Italian engineer to an email I sent to Nordelettronica answering some questions about the 20A/300W charger (which is model NE146). I have copied the questions and answers below:

1) Is the charger a switch-mode type, or is it based on a transformer?
*ANS: yes it is a switch mode type2*

2) I understand the charger uses a 3-stage charging profile. Is this correct?
*ANS: yes to give the full chargin of the battery.*

3) When the charger has reached the "float" stage (13.8V), what happens if I switch on an external load (12v appliance)? Will the charger continue to maintain 13.8V, or will it switch back to the initial 14.4V charging stage, risking damage to the battery?
*ANS: the charger, when it is in float stage, it try to give all the power (if minus 300W) for the load; if the load go up 300w the charger reduces the output tension so the battery help to supply more power. At this point, it dipend how long it discharge the battery; for little time if the load is out the tension go to 13,8 if for long time the tension goes 13.4 V the charging re-start.(pls remember: the battery drive the tension, it isn't a problem for the battery).*

So, from the horse's mouth, it is a 3-stage, switch mode charger. Note that this is the 20A version (NE146)- the 15A version may not necessarily be the same.

Ed.


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## epavelin

I have also today received a spec/instructions sheet for the NE146 from Caravan Tech. The relevant section reads:

CHARGE ALGORITHM
1st stage charge on constant current 20A up to a voltage of VC (14.4V)
2nd stage charge on constant voltage VF (14.4V) with a duration depending on S1 (S1=OFF 6 hours for gel batteries; S1=ON 30 min. for lead-acid storage batteries)
3rd stage holding voltage of VF (13.8V)

Again, the NE143 (15A version) may be different.

Ed.


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## 88724

Hi Ed

Thats not saying its a three stage charger, its pidgeon for it will fully charge.

I have enquired about switch mode type 2 and no-one as heard of it 

Can you forward the email to me, it might be better if we exchanged information in Italian, at least they will not be able to claim to have lost something in the translation.

From the evidence so far I would say its 2 Stage at best and "inteligent" rather than proper hardware control, ie it appears to follow WA Din and only follow the batteries internal resistance.


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## epavelin

George,
I don't think there's anything unambiguous about their email. I asked if it's 3-stage; they said "yes".

You can email them at [email protected]. The reply came from [email protected], so you might want to try that address as well.

Note also that the info you received was about the 15A version (NE143). I asked about the 20A version (NE146) and the two units could conceivably be different.

Good luck,
Ed.


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## 88724

Hi 

OK that confirms its a 3 stage, but I will say this, the voltage for lead acid charging the voltage should be up around 14.8-14.9v They have clipped it down to the Gel setting, with no choice in the matter

And they have further Hobbled good lead acid charging by only allowing lead acid 1/2 hour at the Absorbtion stage !! this charger will take an absolute age to fully charge a battery. Dont be surprised at how long fully charging will take.

Better than a Zig ? yes by miles, but there are far better products out there.

George


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## epavelin

OK, I'm glad we got that sorted out eventually.

I actually think 14.4v charging voltage is better for my specific application, because my leisure battery is mounted in the engine compartment. I would not be happy with a battery gassing into the engine compartment during a 14.8v charging stage. H + O + spark plugs = bang??

Maybe we can get back on topic... Can anyone answer my original question please:
When connecting a 3-stage charger to the leisure battery in a split-charge relay circuit, is there any risk to the alternator from the 14.4V bulk charging stage? Or are all alternators protected from reverse current (e.g. by a diode).

Cheers,

Ed.


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## Brambles

Hi George and everyone.

What happens with the TE 43 or NE 143 Nord unit is if there is no battery and it is acting as a supply only it will give 13.8 volts. This will drop slightly under load up to 200W but with a typical load of 150 Watts (everything switched on) it drops to approx 13.6 volts.


With a battery connected if the battery charging voltage is above 13.4 volts then the output voltage is set to 13.8 volts less any drop due the current drawn by either the battery charging or load. WIth a typical load the voltage drops about 0.3 of a volt.


If the battery charge voltage drops below 13.4 volts for more than 30 mins then bulk phase charging is entered to bring battery up to 14.4 volts. When 14.4 volts is reached then the charger drops back to 13.8 volts. If the battery voltage drops below a set low level of voltage (not sure what it is but if connecting a battery showing only a charge sufficient to give 6 volts the output from the charger stays switched off. This means you need to charge the battery with another source before the Nord will switch the output on and enter bulk phase charging. Whereas a good multi stage charger will supply a low current ( the 3rd stage) to bring up a flat battery the Nord TE43 does not appear to do so. I do not know if the NE143 will. In my set up if the battery is low (6volts in my test) the charge relay also does not close so it cannot be charged from the alternator due to the high current demand that will exist.

It may be worth asking Nord at what low battery voltage level the charger will not switch on and if any of their chargers will supply a low current to bring the flat battery up to a suitable level for bulk charging.


Jon.


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## 88724

BTW note that Mandy and Daves charger as a top Voltage of 14.8 this is for lead acids !

No there is no risk whatsoever to the alternator from 14.4 volts, or even the the proper charging voltage for lead acids of 14.8-14.9v

George


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## epavelin

Thanks George, that's good to know.

Thanks to Jon too- that's very useful information.

Ed.


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## AutoK

I have a copy of the Burstner A 747-2 user instruction manual, and this particular van is fitted with the Elektroblock EBL 99.
there is also a circuit diagram printed, this does seem to be a decent bit of kit and does everything you need.
It uses iuou charging curves (three stage charging) it has a microprocessor built in, monitors leisure batt voltage and disconnects 12v supply when batt voltage drops to 10.5v.
It also gives the vehicle starter battery a constant trickle charge (when on mains hook up).
The nice thing about this unit is everything is auotomatic, has a good leisure battery charger, top up starter battery charge, built in relays, microprocessor, just arrive on site plug in mains hook up and forget.
The only manual switch fitted is for selection of lead acid or gel battery.

I can't see anything else you would need.

Kieran.


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## 88724

Hi Kieran

The Germans are racing ahead,l thats two fitted with proper chargers a Major advance.

Does the switch up the Absorbtion Voltage to 14.8-9v ?

George


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## DABurleigh

> The Germans are racing ahead,lthat's two fitted with proper chargers


George,

Well to keep the UK's end up, Murvi fit a Sterling 20A 4 step charger/power pack (1220CE I think) as standard.

However, in my case I declined that for a Victron:
http://tinyurl.com/7ytfa
and Murvi have been testing C-Tek chargers with a view to a general change:
http://www.ctek.com/index_GB.htm

Not sure whether you consider that good or bad ;-)

Dave


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## 88724

Great news

At first I thought Ctek was a step backwards from Sterling and Victron, but it actually looks good stuff (far more power than the weedy stuff they used to do)

the 8 step wow gonna be longer than old McDonald uouououo eio

BTW Just recieved a PDF on the The bigger Nord stuff 20A and its says the larger stuff is 2 Stage too, so not sure where you are getting three stages from Ed PS reading it again now it shows 3 stage on one drawing then Describes a 2 stage algorhythm. I'll get back to you later?!?!?

George


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## AutoK

George.
Have just had another look at the Burstner manual, but unfortunately doesn't give any information about this switch, only to say and I quote from the manual "If the battery selector switch is wrongly set, there is a danger that oxyhydrogen gas could build up and expode" un quote.
They tell you not to alter this switch, and only ever replace the leisure battery with like for like.
So a bit of a shame really, I have not got one of these units to actually test, it's not a major problem, but it would nice to be able to change your gel type battery for a lead acid type or vice versa if you wanted to, and simply alter the selector switch.
Obviously no charger no matter how clever or so called "intelligent" can tell the difference between two different types of batteries, hence the switch, can't see why Burstner advice against altering it.

Kieran.


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## Brambles

I can only imagine Burstner are covering themselves. Sure as anything if they suggested it as an option someone somewhere would get confused have have it on the wrong setting with the wrong battery.


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## 88781

> How much did the Moby cost?


 £345.67 but it is definately 3 stage, used as a PSU, and the +1 connection is useful for keeping the 'starter' battery topped up too, useful if kids are using the cab CD player. 

It's also light, small and tucks away nicely in a cupboard, and intelligent too! 

Regards M&D


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## Brambles

Mandy and Dave,

£345 was an awful lot to pay for the Mobitronic 15Amp- did that include fitting?
I have seen them available for under £150, so maybe the prices have fallen sharply since you bought. 
Jon.


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## 88724

Hi 

re the Mobi at £350, you could get a 50 Amp Sterling 4 Stage that runs from any voltage and frequency that you throw at it. Also three independant isolated outputs.

I would assume that the Mobi included fitting at pretty expensive hourly rates.

Re the Burstner, in Germany they are changing to Gel batteries this may be the reason for the better charging equipment, the gel battery cannot stand the higher voltage they are a slugs at charging. I would definately trial it with a Lead acid and monitor. problem is they have to cater for the people out there who have no idea about batteries.

I am totally unsure about the info Nord have sent thru its as clear as mud on one page its 2 stage on the next its three. Personally wouldnt touch it with a barge pole based on the specs and info available.

George


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## south-fork

I see your still 'waffling' on about Sterling Chargers , George ! Hope your still getting a good commission rate.


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## 88724

Hi Jim (JR Southfork)

I never have recieved commision on Sterling Chargers. This is just one of the many wind up/ idiotic postings made by JIM

When the SBMCC site is back up I suggest that people look up the posts made by the Person known as JR or Southfork and see the type of poster that he is.

George


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## epavelin

JR-
please don't reduce this thread down to childish name-calling. I have no interest in your personal opinions of the people involved.
Some of us try hard to engage in polite, reasoned discussions, and people like you give internet forums a bad name.

I've had enough of this site,
bye,
Ed.


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## 89813

Good morning Jim nice to see you back again. I hope you have a good Christmas 
:reindeer:


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## 88790

There is an interesting article on Chargers in the February edition of Practical Motorhome, well worth a read.

John 8)


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## south-fork

*Re Practical Motorhome*

Jabber,
I read the article today, it covers some interesting points, but I would question the drawings of the two set ups. The Standard and the Modified set up are exactly the same as far as I can see.

JR


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## 88781

> Mandy and Dave,
> 
> £345 was an awful lot to pay for the Mobitronic 15Amp- did that include fitting?
> I have seen them available for under £150, so maybe the prices have fallen sharply since you bought.
> Jon.


 I didn't fit it, it came as standard on the silvermint ex factory, that price shown there of £345 was the first hit on an internet search, no doubt that it could be beaten! (the price that is,.not the unit :wink: )

Dave


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## 88790

Hi JR,

Yes, they are very similar! On the extreme left of both diagrams the difference is in the +ve side, in the left hand diagram the 12v circuits are connected directly to the battery and in the right hand one they are connected to the 'wire' from the charger.

I think the point is being made that to use a charging voltage of more than 13.8v, the circuits should not be connected to the charger when using a two stage which goes higher than 13.8v possibly 14.5v to get the maximum charge.

As the diagram stands it is not 'ultra' helpful but I think the article is the best I have seen on this aspect of charging.

Hope this helps!

John 8)


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## south-fork

*re Charger*

John
I totally agree with you that as an article that is going to be read by a very wide audience it is excellent and informative. But, surely it is flawed in its 'basic' information. Let alone the mistake that the headings for 'Standard' and 'Modified' circuits are transposed in relation to the wording that is with them, surely both diagrams are exactly the same ?? I stand corrected if I am wrong here. 
The fact that the power take off for the 12v circuits are in one instance taken from the ve+ of the battery and in the other from the wire leading from the charger + , makes no difference whatsoever. In fact the connection could be direct from the '+' output from the charger. So long as the battery is in the circuit , there is always going to be a 'load' on the charger so the 12v. circuit will be identical in either case. The only fall down is if the battery is removed from the circuit for any reason, in which case both circuits fall down. 
Please correct me if my thinking is incorrect

JR


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## 88790

Hi JR,

I also cannot see that it makes any difference where the wires are connected, they would have done better to leave the diagram out.

It makes no difference where you connect along the wire in either direction in my opinion, which I think is what you are saying.

I think there would need to be more control circuitry and there possibly is, its just a bad diagram.

All the best,

John


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## Brambles

Hi,

It will make a difference, albeit small. I have not read the article or seen the diagrams but can see what you are talking about and maybe can shed some light that will explain the difference.

The cable connections from the charger to the battery will have a volt drop. Every cable has some resistance and will give a volt drop when current flows. By connecting the load to the battery terminals you will get the battery voltage. If you connect to the charger you will get the battery voltage + the volt drop in the cables. This could easily be 0.5 volts if a heavy charge current was flowing from the charger.
Some exotic chargers (don't know if your circuit shows this) have a seperate wire conected to the battery to sense the battery voltage so allowance is made for any voltage drop inthe connecting cables. 

Hope this helps explain why they have shown a difference in the diagrams.
Jon.


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## 88724

Hi all

First off Nigel (the author) mixes up an Alternators 13.8 v and that provided by a "charger" (cheapo's and Zig Type units) The zig unit can put a far higher % IN but it will take weeks of running with NO LOADS ie a few weeks on a campsite hook up wont do it

The alternator charging bounces up and down due to vehicle loads the alternator is trying to react to these highes and lows of power requirement, because of this it is generally accepted that an alternator will not charge a battery much beyond 65% (what happens, is that while its reacting to power demands, its using the battery(s) to fund some of the power)

We'll go with his 70% for now so 70% of 85ah = 59.5 ah

Next he guesses that at 40% the appliances (Fridge and TV) think the battery is dead, this is again wrong, but having no idea never stops people writing articles does it. but just for a moment lets assume ite right.

40% of 85 ah = 34 ah take that away from whats available above and you have 25.5 ah

In the article he claims you could have as little as 35 ah available, even if we assume a fully charged 85 ah at the start less 34 ah = 51 ah

He then tackles Sulphation, many batteries are replaced due to not accepting a charge due to sulphation, this part is absolutely correct.

Sulphation occurs naturally every time you discharge a battery, it is a part of the natural chemical reaction that releases the power. What happens though is that some stays on the plate (and hardens) due to not being recharged fully, eventually this is added to as the cycle of abuse continues (what many people call normal use!) eventually the poor output of zigs and cheap chargers cannot break down the sulphate and reconstitute the electrolyte.

His next statement "Charging at higher voltages *prevents this sulphation* and maximises the life and performance of your battery"

The highlighted part is not correct, sulphation of the plates occurs every time you discharge a battery, the situation you dont want is the sulphation hardening, what a decent charger prevents is that sulphation staying on the plate and hardening.

ie you can have the best charging system in the world, but if you discharge the battery and then do not immediately recharge (PROPERLY) hardened sulphation will form, the better charger will remove it when you get round to recharging but its still battery abuse.

Next bit is spot on, basically the normal lead acid battery is King, forget Gel, AGM, mnaintenance free and Ecolsol.

Suffice to say the next few statements are pretty good, basically you want the best in chargers use Sterling 3 stage or really top charging Sterling international 4 Stage.

The drawings mentioned by JR etc are complete rubbish and as JR says the titles are transposed and even then its not correct, to act as He (Nigel) is trying to imply would require you to deliberately induce voltage drop thru wiring, a bad idea.

Charging on the move, I will have to do a write up on this later, every so often a writer will shoot themselves in the foot. read up on the Anteres split charge (relay?) it takes the all time prize for foot shooting, he sets the weapon to fully automatic and holds the trigger till the magazine is empty and then does the equivilent of changing magazines and starting again!!

Clue read paragraph 3 of battery basics on page 102

Even with all the errors this is the best magazine (motorhome at least) printed article, a Major leap forward in promoting the right gear ie proper chargers.

George

PS Jabber and Brambles it does (could) make a difference, as drawn not a significant difference, but depending on wire length and thickness it could represent a significant voltage drop. And as JR pointed out the Titles for each drawing were wrong.


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