# Walkie Talkies.



## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

This subject has probably been aired before. What are the legalities of using Walkie Talkies both here and the rest of EEC with a range of twelve to fourteen miles. On visiting E Bay today I found masses of them for sale, mostly from the states priced very reasonably at around £30 plus postage of £14. They are from a reputable dealer in the states and arrive ( friends have bought them) as stated. The ads are aimed at UK and Europe. I figured they would be ideal for Motorhomes travelling in convoy abroad to keep in touch so nobody got left behind or lost.
I have the normal 3 mile range at the moment that are useless when being used in a vehicle or when indoors. The range when used from one vehicle to another is just about line of sight if your lucky. They work ok outside in the open so long as theres nothing in the way.
Another option is to have CBs fitted I suppose. They dont seem to be used much these days now everybody has mobile phones.


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Hi Tony 
12 - 14mls is a lot of range for a hand held, I think they might be illegal in the EU .. 
As I recall the limit on the output for CBs is 4watts on a base station and 2watts on a hand held... do you have any more details? 
I have a CB in the RV and was thinking on getting a hand held for use when backing up or keeping in touch rather than using a mobile, bearing in mind the limited range..


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## Malc (May 9, 2005)

Hi Tony,
All FM radios are line of sight as is CB. Except by increasing the output for marginal gain, the higher the frequency the less likely you are to increase the distance.
Be wary of CB from the US they are AM and unlawful here and in Europe. The others on E Bay are 140-180 MHZ FM transceivers and marine, you have to be licensed to operate the things, part PMR and part Amatuer Radio license. Would not recommend them!
The only way that you could increase distance is to increase the height of the antenna.
Dont forget that the Europe FM frequencies for CB are slightly different to UK, ensure if you go along this path that the TX you buy is capable of using the European Freq.
Malc


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## TonyHunt (Oct 10, 2005)

Go on UK ebay and type in Midland walkie talkies. Theres shed loads for sale. Varying ranges and types and prices. They claim to pay the VAT if the customs charge it on delivery also.


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## 88724 (May 9, 2005)

Hi Tony

They are ilegal 5 Watt units, 14 mile is over open water or open landscape.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Malc said:


> Hi Tony,
> All FM radios are line of sight as is CB. Except by increasing the output for marginal gain, the higher the frequency the less likely you are to increase the distance.
> /quote]
> 
> ...


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## Malc (May 9, 2005)

FM transmissions are normally line of sight Peedee, sorry to disagree.
What you probably experianced was either Tropo Ducting, Sporidic E, Back scatter or lift conditions associated with high pressure or sunspot cycle highs (not a reliable condition)
Whilst I would agree that abnormal conditions exist and that records exist to the effect that unusual or abnormal distances are achieved that is not the normal accepted pattern of the mode.
Switch to the sideband at the same frequency, and the distances become greater, the SSB is supressed sideband/carrier AM.
There are some who use Moonbounce at certain frequencies, working on the basis of if you fire enough at the object, some will reflect. once again not a reliable method of communication.
Thats opened a can of worms. :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Malc


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Malc, Modulation method is irrelevant to transmission. Carrier frequency and radiated power determine propogation and up to about 30Mhz propogation is gernerally accepted to be via the ionosphere. (I am aware there will also be a ground wave)

peedee


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## Malc (May 9, 2005)

Have a look at this manual they are using the 462Mhz band, unlicensed! Not CB, probably same as the PMR 466 in UK but illegal here.
Page 16 specifications....

http://www.midlandradio.com/comersus/store/catalog/GXT500 Owners Manual RevD.pdf
Malc


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Thought we were talking about CB which is on a 27Mhz carrier frequency.
Agree the UHF band, which is where the PMR walkie talkie sets reside, is line of site only.

peedee


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Reminds me of the time I was having a chat with a ham in Mallorca. It was around the sunspot peak so I usually tried 28MHz 10m FM before looking elsewhere. He had a set of calibrated attenuators and as his signal was pegging my S-meter he gradually inserted more and more attenuation until his effective radiated power was just 10 thousandths of a watt. He was still S9 + 40dB and sounded like he was sitting in the same room.

After an awestruck pause as we took in the physics of this, he simply said "It's like they copper-plate the sky", and that phrase has stuck with me ever since. Almost poetic.

Dave


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Started to write a detailed reply then came across this which says it better than I could and shorter!

462 / 467 in the UK - FRS/GMRS over here potentially interferes with Home Office systems used by the emergency services - which is about as serious as it gets! That's a good reason not to use the 462 MHz channels, which could see you appearing on 455 or 457 MHz without your knowledge. [the signal may be rebroadcasted by repeaters] Best not to! Even if they're using a different CTCSS tone, you will still be clogging up their channel.

At 467 MHz, you could be causing a problem for Radio/TV outside broadcasts, programme/film makers on location, or any number of activities during 'Special Events' which could involve life-and-death matters such as motor sport safety. To make things worse, you may not be aware of their presence (even with any monitor button) whereas they'll certainly notice you! Also, if you're within range of the coast, be aware that the first few channels here at 467 MHz are also used on board ships, and again you could be being rebroadcast on 457 MHz.

Regards frank

Note that the Canadians have given up the struggle at this frequency but are clamping down on Tx's above 2W erp ( estimated radiated Power ).]


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## dodger148 (May 9, 2005)

Have to agree with Malc FM is line of sight, and yes you do get lifts on which help the distance, eg: North of Scotland, Ireland, Holland on 10 watts, also I can remember the days on 27MHz FM CB talking to Italy when there was a lift on
SSB is another issue and others on here will confirm they can work mainland europe no problems on anything from 2.5w to 50w
Regarding CB the UK (muppets) band is being withdrawn and the mid band frequencies will become the norm.
There was a move to de-licence UK CB but when Offcom took over they revokes that and a licence is still needed
The unlicenced stuff is generally ok for 2/3 miles anything more is a bonus


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

OK, I had hoped not to be indelicate, but regarding frequency, FM and line-of-sight, peedee is quite correct here:
http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-110650.html#110650

To say "FM is line-of-sight" is loose terminology at best, because it depends on what frequency you are talking about. FM tends to be avoided at the lower frequencies where ionospheric propagation dominates, because it is wasteful of bandwidth and interference would be dramatically increased (actually, in two ways). But at the higher end of this region, there is considerable bandwidth available and so FM is widely used.

To say other than line-of-sight is "anomalous" propagation here is wrong; it is the norm at times other than when the sunspot cycle is at its trough.

I could fire up my ham tranceiver on 7MHz, talk to someone thousands of miles away, get us both to switch to FM and carry on. I don't because as a form of modulation FM has no advantages here. But it is the frequency that is key.

Dave G4WIZ


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Thank you Dave, your knowledge is certainly greater than the average amateur I have had dialogues with. The point is, the unlicenced stuff, the PMR walkie talkies in the UHF band suffer transmission losses due to obstructions like buildings and hills. Its range can be extremely short as a result. CB Radio at the top end of the HF band, suffers far less from obstructions and can in adittion to its greater local ground range, be received over serveral hundreds of miles by virtue of reflection from the ionosphere. 

CB is therefore the better choice for motorhome to motorhome communications whilst on the road.

peedee


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## 97770 (Feb 19, 2006)

Hi i use to be into CBs and i can say that the 27MHz sets with a acom 17ft ant would work for a long way not just on the odd day but every day, like london to margate, 80 miles and this was in the 90s but with the am rigs i could with a dige scan on upper side bands get out to the USA with no probs, but that was not legal and i had my set confiscated..  
FORDY :lol:


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

The problem is that we get used to saying things without qualification. FM tends to be used on VHF (30MHz to 300Mhz) and UHF (300 to 3000 MHz) frequencies and higher. So saying 'FM' has become associated in peoples mind with these frequencies and is often used by the laymen as meaning 88 to 108 MHz the UK broadcast band in which the only modulation used is FM. It is the frequency or wavelength (VHF, HF,shortwave) that determines the path taken by radio waves not the modulation method eg (FM,AM, SSB, SSBSC etc)

I have to say the chance of being caught using a mobile device is low but you have to bear the moral responsibility of causing interference on what could be a critical frequency. If the use of these became widespread it would render the band unuseable for legitimate users they would then have to move to another frequency incurring extra costs to the taxpayer.

International agreements exist for frequency allocation unfortunately the USA (along with others) maintains its own Federal and local allocations as well with the result that equipment is still made that is legal in one country but not another. Just to see how complex the international frequency allocation is you could look HERE for a PDF which shows all the current allocations it takes 66 pages to outline the frequencies and has another 97 pages of footnotes  to explain the major exceptions and this is the outline document!!!

Regards Frank


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