# Over-complicated electrics.



## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

I have just realised how complicated the 12V system is in my Chausson.

Not only complicated but if anything were to go wrong with the electronics in the panel or distribution system how snookered we would be. As far as I can see the mains charger would keep the battery charged but lighting, water pump water heater and hot air system would probably not function. If it happened on holiday you would probably have to come home.

I am not particularly impressed thus far with Nordelletronica products and opening the dc distribution box and looking in at surface mounted ics just a few mm from power cables and pcb mounted connectors doesn't fill me full of confidence. [As the panel is connected to the dc distribution with a two core wire some of this electronics forms a communication system between the two].

So in the interests of preserving my options I am fitting a separate fuse box and am going to carry a few meters of cable already terminated to jury rig the warm air heating, hot water boiler, some lighting and the water pump in the event that the control panel or dc distribution electronics fail.

It will also give me a way of connecting my solar panel and regulator independently of the rest.


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## bigfrank3 (Mar 26, 2007)

Now that's a good idea Frank. You'v got me thinking now.

bigfrank3


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## Chudders (Jul 5, 2008)

bigfrank3 said:


> Now that's a good idea Frank. You'v got me thinking now.
> 
> bigfrank3


And me ???


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## teemyob (Nov 22, 2005)

*electrics*

Well should be easy for a man of your capabilities Frank!

I have some cable but for a quick remedy we have candles and hot water bottles!

TM


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## greenasthegrass (Oct 27, 2007)

Duntcha just love it when Frunk talks sechsy! I love it when he gets all technicaly and saucy :wink: 

Greenie :lol:


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

greenasthegrass said:


> Duntcha just love it when Frunk talks sechsy! I love it when he gets all technicaly and saucy :wink:
> 
> Greenie :lol:


Whatever floats your boat Greenie 

You need someone to whisper the laws of thermodynamics or the general theory of relativity into your shell likes then :lol:

(BTW we once let our tame scientist at work set the social club 'pub' quiz and Doreen was heard to remark the same  Our team won, I think we got we got 3/20! One of his simpler questions for half a point was what is the speed of light in a vacuum? The answer 2.997 * 10^8 m/s he wouldn't accept 3 * 10^8 m/s, which is the figure radio engineers normally work with, assuming you got that right for a further half a point you had to give the answer for the speed of light in glass fibre)


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## artona (Jan 19, 2006)

It was one of the many positive points of doing a self build Frank. Since I put in every cable, fuse, connector etc etc I know where they all run and am confident I could sort any problem out.

At the start of the build I went to a professional converters factory. I was astounded at the electrics, as you say very complicated. They also used the shortest route which in many cases was straight over the ceiling, before the ceiling was insulated and boarded, so any fault up there and you are stuffed. 

stew


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

artona said:


> It was one of the many positive points of doing a self build Frank. Since I put in every cable, fuse, connector etc etc I know where they all run and am confident I could sort any problem out.
> 
> At the start of the build I went to a professional converters factory. I was astounded at the electrics, as you say very complicated. They also used the shortest route which in many cases was straight over the ceiling, before the ceiling was insulated and boarded, so any fault up there and you are stuffed.
> 
> stew


Yes and as well the complicated electronics takes 200mA or so when the panel is just switched on with nothing happening.

Of course what the converter is saving is cable costs and weight.

I remember I think one post where someone was saying that everything in their motorhome could only be controlled with a remote.


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## gromett (May 9, 2005)

Other than enclosed units such as the charger and the B2B unit everything in my van is operated by old fashioned toggle switches.
I did look at these complicated control panels with integrated meters and LCD displays but decided against it. I want to be able to fix anything quickly and easily with just a pair of wire snips and a screw driver 

To make it look nice I have used an aluminium panel covered in DI NOC glass fibre look vinyl....

Karl


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## PAT4NEIL (Jul 21, 2007)

Hi Frank

We are about to embark on a self build based on a army truck.

We have been looking at other peoples trucks and couldnt believe how complicated their electrics were. They have systems to cover redundant systems so that you can keep going, however the circuit boards on the electronics side were just like the star trek enterprise ( a modern one). I digress, anyhow when Neil comes around to the electrics he is aiming to keep it as simple as possible (although more complex than normal motorhomes).

We were hoping to keep the wiring as short as possible, but it does depend on the final layout that we can agree upon.

The positive side is the actual vehicle doesnt have any complicated electrical systems as its probably gonna be pre 1987.

Pat


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

This has struck a chord with some so a photo of part of my 12V distribution board

Edithoto removed see next post

I have indentified some of the wiring but central to it all is a microcontroller. That is like a small computer on a chip it has memory, software (actually called firmware) can handle analogue to digital conversion and communicate with the control panel and operate relays to control the dc distribution. A clever bit of kit but its putting your eggs in one basket.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

*Updated Photo and annotations* This has struck a chord with some so a photo of part of my 12V distribution board










I have indentified some of the wiring but central to it all is a microcontroller. That is like a small computer on a chip it has memory, software (actually called firmware) can handle analogue to digital conversion and communicate with the control panel and operate relays to control the dc distribution. A clever bit of kit but its putting your eggs in one basket.

Its is linked to the CAN BUS and one function the controller does is take a can bus signal about the ignition and turn it into a D+ signal which is what on older vehicles controlled your ignition light on the dash.

It also controls two battery relay boxes to connect the leisure battery and the vehicle battery to the distributions system. The control of the dc to the 12V part of the fridge is dealt with by a relay on the pcb and the microcontroller determines when this happens.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yep Frank.
As you say all these electronics are all very well in a perfect world but leave us vulnerable to surges, spikes and in some cases reverse polarity problems. 

Our last American RV had a box under the bed the size of a suitcase. It not only controlled the 12 volt charger/converter but load shed to limit the available 110v. power and shut down some appliances. It controlled the auto genny start when the batts got low but only at certain times, etc. etc. 
I never discovered everything it did. But hear tales from other American Coach owners that a replacement came in at $6,000.

Made us feel very vulnerable especially as we had a surge on the previous RV that fried the 2,500 watt 'charger/converter/inverter' (a primitive version) that cost us $3,000 to replace until it was proven the electricity supply company was at fault and they stumped up.

Ray.


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## andrewball1000 (Oct 16, 2009)

"Over complicated" electrics, oh how I agree. I am used to an old boat where a charger charges 1 or more batteries and all the 12v supply is via a simple fuse box. 

When I bought the Knaus I was staggered by the complexity. The heart of the system is Calira Charger cum everything else, which is too clever by half. Even the fuse box does clever things. The problem is that, when I read the Knaus Owners website, I found that this unit has a history of going wrong leaving batteries empty and vehicles stranded. Not only that but the replacement unit was over £500. 

When I installed 3 solar panels and batteries, I deliberately kept solar input direct to the batteries and supply separate from their output. There is an old fashion manual switch to direct the charge between either leisure battery bank, and another to select the output battery supply from either of them. This also stops the solar regulator fighting with the Calira one . 

I can now see which battery gets what and when. If anything goes wrong at least I will have one battery bank full. Viva Low Tech


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## foll-de-roll (Oct 29, 2007)

Hi


In our first Van (1962 Martin Walter conversion) the most technical item was the Mantle for the Gas light. How things have moved on, or not :roll: :roll: 


Andy ( But I still enjoy reading the techy bits)


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## SpeedyDux (Jul 13, 2007)

Don't they teach designers to KISS anymore?


SD


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## clive1821 (Mar 27, 2010)

Yes I totally agree all you need is that 16Mhz xal to shatter and you are stuffed, which would be the first to fail I guess.... nothing like a switch and a relay and fuses which can easily be serviced.... this thats moden stuff for you....


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

foll-de-roll said:


> In our first Van (1962 Martin Walter conversion) the most technical item was the Mantle for the Gas light.


:lol:

Jock.


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## cabby (May 14, 2005)

Sorry, but to me it sounds like someone who wishes to remain in the past. 8O The amount of these products produced and the % that go wrong is surely minimal. :wink: :wink: 
would you carry on about the high tech electronics on the modern vehicle. dont want ABS in case it goes wrong etc.
Perhaps one would be better off with an old vehicle.
Are you having a bad year Sally traffic, as we have had a rant about sprinting delivery men and now this. :lol: :lol: 

cabby


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

cabby said:


> Sorry, but to me it sounds like someone who wishes to remain in the past. 8O The amount of these products produced and the % that go wrong is surely minimal. :wink: :wink:
> would you carry on about the high tech electronics on the modern vehicle. dont want ABS in case it goes wrong etc.
> Perhaps one would be better off with an old vehicle.
> Are you having a bad year Sally traffic, as we have had a rant about sprinting delivery men and now this. :lol: :lol:
> ...


Nordelettronic stuff (apart from their alarm system) are no longer fitted by Swift because of reliability problems I have already had a battery charger failure. They are in some sort of receivership I believe.

I am not a luddite but you don't get better or new functions with these microcontroller electronics, apart from superficial bells and whistles that is.

Understand this if the microcontroller fails nothing will work. Nada. So if its a long weekend away no problem but if you are in Finland or Poland where is the nearest nordelletronica servicing?

Whereas if my Transit ABS fails I have every confidence that I would get it fixed in any European country.

oh and as an afterthought I used to design microcontroller stuff for a living but we were forced to use three to ensure that any two could keep an eye on what the third was doing and they used up a lot of Watthours. (the power requirements have come down but most of these microcontrollers were originally developed for systems with a plentiful supply of mains electricity.


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## Rosbotham (May 4, 2008)

I'm with Cabby on this one. I know you like to tinker Frank, but you'll probably increase the risk of failure significantly by opening & fiddling. What proportion do actually fail? Doubtless there's reports of individual units going, but it'd be interesting to know what the real risk is.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

Rosbotham said:


> I'm with Cabby on this one. I know you like to tinker Frank, but you'll probably increase the risk of failure significantly by opening & fiddling. What proportion do actually fail? Doubtless there's reports of individual units going, but it'd be interesting to know what the real risk is.


I didn't make them unreliable in Swift Motorhomes and caravans


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## Jezport (Jun 19, 2008)

You make me feel quite lucky having an electroblok self destructing charger.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Modern electronics should be very reliable. I worked on communications systems in the railway environment for over 20 years. There are systems still in use which have not failed in over 20 years of continual use with minimal maintainance. Printed circuit board mounted processor systems with associated solid state relays should go on forever. 
The important bit is the design and manufacture, get that right and failures should not occur.
I had Honda CR-V's which did over 80,000 miles each in 3 years with no failures of any sort. I would hate to go back to the simple mechanics of the Imp that I bought new in the 70's.


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## sallytrafic (Jan 17, 2006)

The relays FRS3M on Nordelletronica NE205 are not solid state you can hear then operating 

I don't think anyone is comparing like with like here. These are small volume products which have suffered failures.

Here is what swift owners club say on their handbook website


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## EJB (Aug 25, 2007)

Frank,
I always look in awe at your modifications, additions and general tinkering. 
I then look at my own MH and wonder why it only took a couple of hours to make it perfect :wink: 
Thank goodness I didn't buy the vehicle that you did :roll:

Keep it up Frank it makes a good read 

No doubt you do what you do because you can....not because you have to :lol:


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

The control unit in my Autotrail failed a couple of weeks ago just (like 10 minutes) before I was due to go away for the weekend.

Currently (yes intentional pun made) with the nice men at Sargent being (hopefully) sorted. BUT sallytraffic is dead right, nothing but NOTHING in the habitation side worked due to this little box of whizzo bits failing for whatever reason.

We usually go away for all of August so if the control unit had failed on day 2 of the next trip (in France) I would, as the saying goes, be up a particularly smelly creek without a paddle (or electrics) .       

It would be handy if there was some kind of "get you home" system built in, but there isnt !!!


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## CliveMott (Mar 10, 2008)

Totally agree with you Frank.
I believe that Swift used Nordelletronica for one year only and learnt their lesson.

If you are crafty you can work out which end of the important fuses is the inputs and make up a wired set of fuses that plug in and allow you to bypass all the technology. Call in insurance!



C.


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