# Extra seat belts



## VRS (Mar 27, 2011)

Hi does anyone know the law regarding carrying passengers. if you have side ways seats can you carry passengers or do you have to have forward facing seats with seat belts.


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## GerryD (Sep 20, 2007)

Check with your insurance company. Most will only cover passengers in belted seats.
Gerry


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## madontour (May 19, 2008)

It depends when the van was first registered. The law changed recently to only allow passengers in belted seats. Prior to that it was legal, but risky, to carry passengers in rear seats without belts. 

It is not advised to fit belts to sideways seats as the twisting they induce in an accident is deemed worse than rattling about like a rag doll.

We don't make a habit of it but do carry passengers on our sideways seats occasionally. We are, after all, adults and able to assess the risk.

Mike


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## Cornishaich (Oct 18, 2009)

I would be very interested in an answer to the question posed by VRS, as we have a three berth rapido with only two belted seats.


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## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

This seems to cover it:

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-faqs.shtml#seatbelts


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## Cornishaich (Oct 18, 2009)

Thank you for that roger.


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## Stanner (Aug 17, 2006)

rogerblack said:


> This seems to cover it:
> 
> http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-faqs.shtml#seatbelts


It must always be remembered that just because something isn't specifically illegal, doesn't mean that it is specifically legal. 
There are plenty of "catch all" laws that can be used to make almost anything that isn't specifically legal - illegal.


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## peribro (Sep 6, 2009)

madontour said:


> It depends when the van was first registered. The law changed recently to only allow passengers in belted seats.


I don't think that is the case. The law requires passengers to occupy belted seats if they are available but if they are not and there are non-belted seats available, then the law does not preclude the use of those seats.


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## Jagman (Feb 16, 2008)

Hi VRS

As you might expect there have been a few seat belt discussions over the years here are a few:

www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-46924-.html

www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-52288-.html

www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopict-63290-.html

Roger's link is the key to the facts but Gerry's point is vital - if you're not insured for unbelted passengers you have a situation which 'over-rides' the law re. seatbelts and, in effect, puts you in contravention of another law - certainly check this with your insurers.

It is frustrating, to say the least, that many, especially older, vans have 'berth' ratings which supersede their belted seating capacity, something which buyers have to be alert to. We have had people on here who realise their mistake only too late and face the difficult decision of either selling the van and replacing it with a suitable mh or carrying family members in an unsafe way. The problem is exacerbated when child seats come into the equation.

Good luck with your decisions

Jagman


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## ched999uk (Jan 31, 2011)

I seem to also remember that children can only travel with seat belts!! So it's OK for adults to travel in unbelted seats provided belted ones are unavailable but children must have seat belts.


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## rogerblack (May 1, 2005)

At least DfT have revised their original (and rather daft!) interpretation of the new law, which would in effect have meant that for my vehicle (a five berth but with only four seat belts) I would have faced the choice of either being limited to carrying only two passenger in the back if I kept the seat belts on the forward facing seats * or if I removed the two rear seat belts (which for my vehicle are not required by the regulations) I would then have been able legally* to carry passengers in all the rear seats, none having a belt to wear* :!: :roll:

* I take Stanner's point however and accept that whilst this would have been compliant with the seatbelt regulations, as then interpreted by DfT, it could still lead to potential non-compliance with other laws relating to safe carrying of passengers. As has been mentioned, this is a matter of judgement - by a police officer initially and where relevant, subsequently a court.

I accept that there may be a difference between what might comply with the strict letter of the law and what is sensible and safe - as has been said, we are all adults and must make our own decisions based on the circumstances and accept responsibility for any consequences. The practice of "Risk Assessment" existed long before it was given the formal title!

Incidentally, can anyone point out for me which section of their insurance policy document would cover this matter, as I can find no relevant reference in mine (with Safeguard).


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## VRS (Mar 27, 2011)

*Seatbelts*

Thanks everyone for your repies lots of info


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## bulawayolass (Jul 27, 2010)

As we travel in buses and coaches without them as you say make our own choices. I know about the dangers of fitting side seats with belts had l realised when l bought mine all the confusion l would have got the other design and if need be different vehicle but have CB so live with it but was wondering how aircraft seat belts would do just across the lap?


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## pneumatician (May 1, 2005)

Full harness for flying, but then I have yet to fly in a 737 or Airbus and execute a roll.
I doubt very much whether laps straps would offer much protection in anything other than a hard landing.
I suppose the main idea is to stop people leaving their seats and causing injury to other passengers.
I think the idea of meeting my maker with my head up my jacksie somewhat amusing.

Steve


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## TR5 (Jun 6, 2007)

Like this you mean............?


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## bulawayolass (Jul 27, 2010)

:lol: l was hoping to remove my head before l met my maker :lol: 
Was thinking about the keeping a person from being flung out of the seat than the stage where your head is required to be placed into your orifice.


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## pneumatician (May 1, 2005)

Excellent image TR5 would have liked to have had that at a few sales meetings when I was working.

Steve


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## n4ked (Sep 21, 2011)

VRS said:


> Hi does anyone know the law regarding carrying passengers. if you have side ways seats can you carry passengers or do you have to have forward facing seats with seat belts.


There is a company at stoke who will fit extra lap belts if needed

www.towtal.co.uk


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## n4ked (Sep 21, 2011)

VRS said:


> Hi does anyone know the law regarding carrying passengers. if you have side ways seats can you carry passengers or do you have to have forward facing seats with seat belts.


i know this is off the topic slightly but it might help someone else as it has us in converting a lap belt to a three point seatbelt. Securon make the parts.

Britax make a special belt called child teather for child seats

http://www.securon.co.uk/other/seat_belts_centre.htm


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## loughrigg (Nov 10, 2008)

The article at the following link includes an extract from an Australian study. The section on potential for injury measured using crash-test dummies is worth reading.

http://www.voea.vic.edu.au/publications/journeys/sideways_seats_brookes.html

Mike


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## pneumatician (May 1, 2005)

To me it was obvious before reading that sideways seat should not carry travelling passengers. This excellent article just proves it.
Unfortunately our van has two sideways bench seats.
Grandchildren have to be delivered and collected which means that for the last six years we rarely entertain them in the Camper 

Steve


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## n4ked (Sep 21, 2011)

ched999uk said:


> I seem to also remember that children can only travel with seat belts!! So it's OK for adults to travel in unbelted seats provided belted ones are unavailable but children must have seat belts.


There is also another part of the law on seat belts overlooked regarding children in vehicles. Parents seem to think that if a child is over a certain height that they can travel in a booster cushion, or a 3 point seatbelt in a child seat.

This rule only applies if the child is over 3, and 15kg or 33.069 Lbs (group 2-3 seat) otherwise the inertia will not work, this means that if a child who might be the legal height does not make the weight also they have to have a five point harness. I know that there is an overlap but this is a little known law. This applies to all vehicles fitted with seatbelts. Went into this at kiddicare a few weeks ago and also spoke at lengths with Britax Uk as we always believed this is not made clear that if the child was tall enough it is ok, its the weight that is the dominant factor not height but the law is not made clear.

Waste of time asking Vosa or even your local traffic police as when they do stop tests they use their local safety council inspector who is probaly taught by Britax UK. This is why you see so many children on a booster cushion who are of the age when the parents dont know about the weight to make the belt work. Although it looks legal its a child life they play with as the correct information is not made clear.

Just have a look on Youtube as manufacturers dont design seatbelts to work under 15kg....

Remember its 15kg child + child seat = STOP

Remember children under 15kg no matter how tall must be in a five point harness always.

Under three must be retstrained properly and take priority if belts are fitted always.

Children should not be in side ways facing belts (very grey area as not forward facing, its your child's life but as an adult you are able make your own decision).

Its a shame the law does not make this clear

I know about the 15kg + seat rule as i worked with crash test dummies for a while at millbrook bedfordshire.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Being a member of this forum means you are still working with dummies.

Where did I put that tin hat? :lol:


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