# Winter tyres warning for Germany



## locovan

http://www.blackcircles.com/tyres/winter-tyres/laws-and-legislation

Some people are unsure where you have to have winter tyres 
Thought a reminder is needed :wink:


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## listerdiesel

Useful information, many thanks!

I assume that goes for trailers as well?

Peter


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## locovan

hmmm I cant answer that-- can some else :wink:


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## bognormike

Logically it should, but that doesn't always apply!

Since I found out that in some parts of Europe they insist on winter tyres because they obviously have worse winters than the UK, I'm surprised that we don't hear more about tyre retailers offering winter tyres in areas like northern England or Scotland?


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## Kev1

We had winter tyres only on the front drive wheels

not sure if this is the norm?


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## Stanner

Kev1 said:


> We had winter tyres only on the front drive wheels
> 
> not sure if this is the norm?


It is most definitely NOT recommended.

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Video-Can-you-fit-just-2-winter-tyres.htm

PS and there's more





http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071122192629AAskAdT

http://www.simplemotoring.co.uk/winter-tyres/#.UI5p9oaLw-k


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## Boff

Hi!



listerdiesel said:


> I assume that goes for trailers as well?


No, it does not. Only motor vehicles are required to have winter tyres if road conditions require so. A trailer is not a motor vehicle.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Hawcara

Not having done any Christmas markets yet, does that mean that, if you do, it would be advisable to fit winter tyres, or is it just if you drive in snow? For a one off trip it could be expensive, but I can see the attraction.


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## Wupert

Kev1 said:


> We had winter tyres only on the front drive wheels
> 
> not sure if this is the norm?


'tis illegal in Austria and I'm sure the other countries and certainly not advisable anywhere else


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## Kev1

thanks wu


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## FoweyBoy

Just checked my Michelin Agilis Camping 215/70 R15 109 Q fitted a few months ago are marked M+S.


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## grizzlyj

I know its not really applicable but does anyone know if studded tyres are legal in the UK? I saw a Norwegian car in Suffolk last year with them on and it made me wonder.

I put winter tyres on my Focus about 6 weeks ago. The insurance company weren't interested, theres a little more noise, they don't like roads with tramlines created by HGVs but cornering and braking is still good and standing water no longer seems to exist!


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## GRUMPYOB

Does this apply to motorhomes over 3.5 tons or would commercial rules apply then. Mine is rated at 4.25 tons and I am thinking of doing a Christmas market in December. I have snow chains but obviously they're no good on frosty roads.


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## Twm-Twp

GRUMPYOB said:


> Does this apply to motorhomes over 3.5 tons or would commercial rules apply then. Mine is rated at 4.25 tons


There are several websites available for you to check on the exact requirement re. winter / all-season tyres in Europe. I think that the only deviation the Germans allow applies to heavy goods vehicles only and that is they (HGV's) are only required to fit winter tyres to the drive axles.

So that means you need winter tyres on your m/h if you planning on visiting Germany during the period specified. They must be fitted all round, not just on one axle and they must also have a minimum tread depth of I think 3mm.

Hope that helps.

PS: It's worth checking the sidewall of your existing tyres for the 'M & S' mark. Tyres marked as suitable for 'mud and snow' fully comply with the European winter tyre laws - providing they have sufficient tread.


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## grizzlyj

Austria 4mm, it doesn't give a minimum for Germany though?

http://www.europcar.com/EBE/module/render/Driving-abroad-in-Winter-conditions


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## Stanner

Twm-Twp said:


> PS: It's worth checking the sidewall of your existing tyres for the 'M & S' mark. Tyres marked as suitable for 'mud and snow' fully comply with the European winter tyre laws - providing they have sufficient tread.


M&S is Marks and Spencer

M+S is the correct marking for Mud + Snow.

And even then M+S is meaningless as it only refers to the tread pattern it doesn't mean the tyre is suitable for use in the winter.

http://www.tyrepress.com/News/1/18147.html


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## WildThingsKev

We are in Italy at present and virtually all of the northern half seems to have a requirement for winter tyres and chains from dates between 14 Oct and 1st Dec until March, dependant on where you are. I was quite surprised about the number and location of signs really, 'left the camper tyres on for this trip and only just escaped the snow in the Dolomites.


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## Twm-Twp

Stanner said:


> Twm-Twp said:
> 
> 
> 
> M+S is the correct marking for Mud + Snow. M+S is meaningless as it only refers to the tread pattern it doesn't mean the tyre is suitable for use in the winter.
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct Stanner ...... of course M&S stands for Marks and Spencers. Apologies to all those that I may have inadvertently mislead ... please don't rush off to M&S looking for winter or all-season tyres. Good for underwear ... but not for tyres !!!
> 
> I think you are misquoting the article you attached to your post ... the gist of which warns against cheap M+S tyres. My advice still stands ..... tyres marked with the M+S symbol fully meet the winter tyre requirement in Germany and Austria.
> 
> I would add that anyone planning on driving in a region where heavy snow is anticipated, they should be equipped with good quality snow-chains. They should also know how to put them on bearing in mind that when the time comes to actually fit snow-chains, it may be snowing heavily, you may be trying to put them on in several centimetres of snow and it could also be in the dark ...... and it will be very cold on your hands ... so also carry waterproof gloves. Or buy Weissenfels (?) clack & go snow-chains for ease of use ... they are definitely worth the extra bucks !!!
Click to expand...


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## Wupert

Twm-Twp said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Twm-Twp said:
> 
> 
> 
> M+S is the correct marking for Mud + Snow. M+S is meaningless as it only refers to the tread pattern it doesn't mean the tyre is suitable for use in the winter.
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct Stanner ...... of course M&S stands for Marks and Spencers. Apologies to all those that I may have inadvertently mislead ... please don't rush off to M&S looking for winter or all-season tyres. Good for underwear ... but not for tyres !!!
> 
> I think you are misquoting the article you attached to your post ... the gist of which warns against cheap M+S tyres. My advice still stands ..... tyres marked with the M+S symbol fully meet the winter tyre requirement in Germany and Austria.
> 
> I would add that anyone planning on driving in a region where heavy snow is anticipated, they should be equipped with good quality snow-chains. They should also know how to put them on bearing in mind that when the time comes to actually fit snow-chains, it may be snowing heavily, you may be trying to put them on in several centimetres of snow and it could also be in the dark ...... and it will be very cold on your hands ... so also carry waterproof gloves. Or buy Weissenfels (?) clack & go snow-chains for ease of use ... they are definitely worth the extra bucks !!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi Twm (We may have met in Lee & Turners)
> 
> In Austria and I'm sure other alpine areas the tyres must have in addition to other info a small snowflake on them
Click to expand...


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## rayrecrok

Twm-Twp said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Twm-Twp said:
> 
> 
> 
> M+S is the correct marking for Mud + Snow. M+S is meaningless as it only refers to the tread pattern it doesn't mean the tyre is suitable for use in the winter.
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct Stanner ...... of course M&S stands for Marks and Spencers. Apologies to all those that I may have inadvertently mislead ... please don't rush off to M&S looking for winter or all-season tyres. Good for underwear ... but not for tyres !!!
> 
> I think you are misquoting the article you attached to your post ... the gist of which warns against cheap M+S tyres. My advice still stands ..... tyres marked with the M+S symbol fully meet the winter tyre requirement in Germany and Austria.
> 
> I would add that anyone planning on driving in a region where heavy snow is anticipated, they should be equipped with good quality snow-chains. They should also know how to put them on bearing in mind that when the time comes to actually fit snow-chains, it may be snowing heavily, you may be trying to put them on in several centimetres of snow and it could also be in the dark ...... and it will be very cold on your hands ... so also carry waterproof gloves. Or buy Weissenfels (?) clack & go snow-chains for ease of use ... they are definitely worth the extra bucks !!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi..
> 
> >linky Weissenfels<
> 
> ray.
Click to expand...


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## Wupert

Worth a look

www.continental-tyres.com/

check out the pages on tyre markings and check areas where winter tyres are needed


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## Stanner

Twm-Twp said:


> I think you are misquoting the article you attached to your post ... the gist of which warns against cheap M+S tyres. My advice still stands ..... tyres marked with the M+S symbol fully meet the winter tyre requirement in Germany and Austria.


Not really what it says is that M+S alone is not a good indication of COLD weather performance a stiff slippy tyre with an open tread pattern is no better at gripping on icy or compounded snow than any other stiff slippy tyre.

As Ray says it is increasingly the case that the Mountain/Snowflake symbol is the one that matters as that DOES indicate adequate cold weather performance.

I foresee that the M+S marking will not be worth the rubber it's written on soon.
Also any tyres it is still written on will be long past their use by date.


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## Twm-Twp

Wupert said:


> Hi Twm (We may have met in Lee & Turners)
> 
> In Austria and I'm sure other alpine areas the tyres must have in addition to other info a small snowflake on them


Hi Wupert .... yes we did meet in L & T's before your trip to Bosnia ..... I hope that went well.

The snowflake symbol denotes the tyres are full on winter tyres which is sometimes seen in addition to the M + S symbol. I have a set of winter tyres for our car which we have fitted in January before the first of our two ski trips .... and then taken back off when we return home from Italy in Mid-March.

See you soon ... I could do with some info from you re. your trip to Bosnia.


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## Wupert

Twm-Twp said:


> Wupert said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Twm (We may have met in Lee & Turners)
> 
> In Austria and I'm sure other alpine areas the tyres must have in addition to other info a small snowflake on them
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Wupert .... yes we did meet in L & T's before your trip to Bosnia ..... I hope that went well.
> 
> The snowflake symbol denotes the tyres are full on winter tyres which is sometimes seen in addition to the M + S symbol. I have a set of winter tyres for our car which we have fitted in January before the first of our two ski trips .... and then taken back off when we return home from Italy in Mid-March.
> 
> See you soon ... I could do with some info from you re. your trip to Bosnia.
Click to expand...

Hi Twm

We had a fantastic trip but didnt go to Bosnia with the camper.

We spent 6 weeks in Slovenia & Croatia staying on Krk & Cres Islands

If you want more info just ask

Regards

dave


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## grizzlyj

snipped


Stanner said:


> I foresee that the M+S marking will not be worth the rubber it's written on soon.
> Also any tyres it is still written on will be long past their use by date.


Hiya

As far as I've seen all 4x4 tyres have M+S on the side, so why the Tyrepress article says "According to Conti, these M+S marked tyres are really all-season or summer tyres "produced cheaply in the Far East"", or that they will be out of date soon seems a step too far?

Conti's own tyres have M+S on the sidewall but no snowflake on some I had 4 years ago but are still being made. :? Were they talking about their own products?


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## Boff

Hi!



Twm-Twp said:


> I think that the only deviation the Germans allow applies to heavy goods vehicles only and that is they (HGV's) are only required to fit winter tyres to the drive axles.


This is correct.



grizzlyj said:


> Austria 4mm, it doesn't give a minimum for Germany though?


Same goes for Germany.

And regarding M+S and Snowflake/Mountain icon: Both are considered as winter tyres from a _legal_ point of view in Germany. However I would prefer the Snowflake. After all it is not just to fulfill the law. If you are really driving on snowy roads - and snowfall can occur quite unexpectedly in German winters - your life may depend on the tyres.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Twm-Twp

Wupert said:


> we had a fantastic trip but didn't go to Bosnia with the camper. We spent 6 weeks in Slovenia & Croatia staying on Krk & Cres Islands.


Yes of course it was Croatia I was thinking of ...... I was just out walking the dogs over Kenfig Nature Reserve in all the wind and rain that is currently lashing in over Swansea Bay .... and I thought, why am I asking about Bosnia. It wasn't Bosnia at all ....... it's Croatia .... !!! another senior moment.


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## Twm-Twp

Boff said:


> However I would prefer the Snowflake. After all it is not just to fulfill the law. If you are really driving on snowy roads - and snowfall can occur quite unexpectedly in German winters - your life may depend on the tyres.


I completely agree with you Gerhard. Having had a mega slow speed slide on a snow covered mountain road once I have invested in a full set of winter tyres (Continentals with the snowflake symbol) for the car we take on our ski-trips. Even though most of our winter trips are to the French Alps or Italian Dolomites. I also carry Weissenfel snow chains.

One of my pet dislikes on this forum is when I read recommendations for cheapo m/h tyres ........ nothing quite like a front wheel blow out to bring you to your senses !!!!!!! I even have tyron bands fitted to all the wheels on our m/h ..... £250 well spent.


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## Pat-H

I can see that winter tyres are not reccomended for summer use but I wonder if that applies to motorhomes.
Increased wear isn't an issue as many MHs do such low mileage they face changing tyres based on age not wear.
Reduced top speed isn't an issue as MH driver just don't go that fast.
The only thing I can see is that the increased road resistance can increase the tyre temp and increase the risk of blowout.

But the winter tyres offer so many advantages to MH owners in view of muddy fields etc I'd certainly consider it if they were practical all year round.


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## Twm-Twp

Pat-H said:


> But the winter tyres offer so many advantages to MH owners in view of muddy fields etc I'd certainly consider it if they were practical all year round.


You should check the sidewall of your existing tyres - perhaps your van is already fitted with M+S tyres. Our 2011 Autocruise Augusta came fitted with a full set of mud and snow tyres (Michelins) as standard ......... and I wonder if this is something that the Swift group now fit as standard on all models.


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## Pat-H

Twm-Twp said:


> Pat-H said:
> 
> 
> 
> But the winter tyres offer so many advantages to MH owners in view of muddy fields etc I'd certainly consider it if they were practical all year round.
> 
> 
> 
> You should check the sidewall of your existing tyres - perhaps your van is already fitted with M+S tyres. Our 2011 Autocruise Augusta came fitted with a full set of mud and snow tyres (Michelins) as standard ......... and I wonder if this is something that the Swift group now fit as standard on all models.
Click to expand...

Ours is a 2007 van with the original tyres and they are Continental VancoCamper tyres but have no M + S or winter markings. Looking at the tread pattern they are summer only tyres.


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## Boff

Pat-H said:


> I can see that winter tyres are not reccomended for summer use but I wonder if that applies to motorhomes.
> Increased wear isn't an issue as many MHs do such low mileage they face changing tyres based on age not wear.
> Reduced top speed isn't an issue as MH driver just don't go that fast.
> The only thing I can see is that the increased road resistance can increase the tyre temp and increase the risk of blowout.


There is a bit more to it: Winter tyres are not available in "camping" quality, at least not "real" winter tyres with snow flake symbol. Which means they are less resistant to overload, so the risk of a blowout could further increase. And then they have longer braking distances on a hot road surface.

But it is still better to drive winter tyres in summer, than summer tyres on snowy roads.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## Kev1

Hi following this with interest.

With regard to Germany
our Hobby camper is 4.5 tonne
registered as private HGV
Does this mean it would only require winter tyres on the front driving axle

Just trying to clarify

Kev


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## tattytony

Kev1 said:


> Hi following this with interest.
> 
> With regard to Germany
> our Hobby camper is 4.5 tonne
> registered as private HGV
> Does this mean it would only require winter tyres on the front driving axle
> 
> Just trying to clarify
> 
> Kev


We were at a campsite in the Black Forest last week and the police man there informed us that even though our tyres had M + S (mud and snow) on them, and they were on all six wheels and we had hit an unfortunate snow storm then it is likely that no further action would be taken. 

He did say that if we went to Germany knowing that we were most likely to see snow and didn't have winter tyres then a Fine would issued on the spot. 

M+S are Not winter tyres so not too sure what we would do for later in the year :?


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## grizzlyj

Does the snowflake symbol only apply up to 3500kg type tyres in reality perhaps?


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## BillCreer

Hi,
This is the reply I got from Michelin on the subject.

25.8.11

Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings. 

I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable


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## tattytony

BillCreer said:


> Hi,
> This is the reply I got from Michelin on the subject.
> 
> 25.8.11
> 
> Thank you for your enquiry about mud and snow markings.
> 
> I can confirm that the Mud and snow marking on the Agilis 2 Camping tyre conforms to European winter tyre laws. Please be aware however that some countries have a legal requirement that for the tyre to be classed as a winter tyre the tread depth must be 4mm or above. When the tread depth drops to below 4mm then the tyre is classed as a summer tyre and therefore the M+S marking is no longer applicable


The German policeman we were talking to who spoke perfect English and was clear on the fact that Mud + Snow are not winter tyres and if we could not show the flake then fine us it will be


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## nicholsong

So Michelin or the policeman must be wrong - couldn't be the policeman could it? :wink: 

'Sorry Officer, did not see you there' :roll: 

Geoff


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## tattytony

nicholsong said:


> So Michelin or the policeman must be wrong - couldn't be the policeman could it? :wink:
> 
> 'Sorry Officer, did not see you there' :roll:
> 
> Geoff


Surley Geoff the police will only look for the flake as M+S mean nothing to them as it has a different name in different language :?:


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## Stanner

nicholsong said:


> So Michelin or the policeman must be wrong - couldn't be the policeman could it? :wink:
> 
> 'Sorry Officer, did not see you there' :roll:
> 
> Geoff


Ohh don't worry so much, I'm sure Michelin will fund his defence in the German Court. :wink:


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## Wupert

Kev1 said:


> Hi following this with interest.
> 
> With regard to Germany
> our Hobby camper is 4.5 tonne
> registered as private HGV
> Does this mean it would only require winter tyres on the front driving axle
> 
> Just trying to clarify
> 
> Kev


You really need snow tyres on all wheels or you may find yourself going the wrong way down hills

From memory our coaches doing winter Austria trips have Snowflake tyres on both sets of rear wheels.

The wiser suppliers have them on all wheels


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## grizzlyj

A bit of further reading suggests there are guidelines before a tyre can display MS, M+S and M/S (or even M&S according to Nokian ). But the tyres are not tested, and the guidelines essentially mean it should, to a specified extent, be open treaded.

http://www.snowtyres.com.au/severe-service-emblem

To display the "snowflake in a mountain" a test does have to be passed, but from what I can gather it just has to perform 10% better than an all season control tyre. So ignoring tyre manufacturers slant might actually mean that something marked M+S etc could be better than a snowflake! But more importantly, for a test initiated in 1999 (perhaps updated in 2006 but in what way I can't find), tyre performance has I'm sure come on in leaps and bounds, so assuming a snowflake is the best available is not correct, and there may well be a large variation in a winter tyres performance over and above the required 10% which no current standard incorporates. If the test actually means 10% better than an all season tyre designed in 1999 (which I hope it doesn't!) then I don't think it means very much at all today?

The test is for rear wheel drive cars and light trucks only.

From http://auto.howstuffworks.com/tire3.htm

"All-Season Tires with Mud and Snow Designation 
If a tire has MS, M+S, M/S or M&S on it, then it meets the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) guidelines for a mud and snow tire. For a tire to receive the Mud and Snow designation, it must meet these geometric requirements (taken from the bulletin "RMA Snow Tire Definitions for Passenger and Light Truck (LT) Tires"):

1. New tire treads shall have multiple pockets or slots in at least one tread edge that meet the following dimensional requirements based on mold dimensions:

Extend toward the tread center at least 1/2 inch from the footprint edge, measured perpendicularly to the tread centerline. 
A minimum cross-sectional width of 1/16 inch. 
Edges of pockets or slots at angles between 35 and 90 degrees from the direction of travel.

2. The new tire tread contact surface void area will be a minimum of 25 percent based on mold dimensions.

The rough translation of this specification is that the tire must have a row of fairly big grooves that start at the edge of the tread and extend toward the center of the tire. Also, at least 25 percent of the surface area must be grooves.

Severe winter traction icon

The idea is to give the tread pattern enough void space so that it can bite through the snow and get traction. However, as you can see from the specification, there is no testing involved.

To address this shortcoming, the Rubber Manufacturers Association and the tire industry have agreed on a standard that does involve testing. The designation is called Severe Snow Use and has a specific icon (see image at right), which goes next to the M/S designation.

In order to meet this standard, tires must be tested using an American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) testing procedure described in "RMA Definition for Passenger and Light Truck Tires for use in Severe Snow Conditions":

Tires designed for use in severe snow conditions are recognized by manufacturers to attain a traction index equal to or greater than 110 compared to the ASTM E-1136 Standard Reference Test Tire when using the ASTM F-1805 snow traction test with equivalent percentage loads.

These tires, in addition to meeting the geometrical requirements for an M/S designation, are tested on snow using a standardized test procedure. They have to do better than the standard reference tire in order to meet the requirements for Severe Snow Use."

More links

http://www.blackcircles.com/tyres/winter-tyres/laws-and-legislation

http://www.etyres.co.uk/winter-tyres

Two tyres? clip


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## tattytony

grizzlyj said:


> A bit of further reading suggests there are guidelines before a tyre can display MS, M+S and M/S (or even M&S according to Nokian ). But the tyres are not tested, and the guidelines essentially mean it should, to a specified extent, be open treaded.
> 
> http://www.snowtyres.com.au/severe-service-emblem
> 
> To display the "snowflake in a mountain" a test does have to be passed, but from what I can gather it just has to perform 10% better than an all season control tyre. So ignoring tyre manufacturers slant might actually mean that something marked M+S etc could be better than a snowflake! But more importantly, for a test initiated in 1999 (perhaps updated in 2006 but in what way I can't find), tyre performance has I'm sure come on in leaps and bounds, so assuming a snowflake is the best available is not correct, and there may well be a large variation in a winter tyres performance over and above the required 10% which no current standard incorporates. If the test actually means 10% better than an all season tyre designed in 1999 (which I hope it doesn't!) then I don't think it means very much at all today?
> 
> The test is for rear wheel drive cars and light trucks only.
> 
> From http://auto.howstuffworks.com/tire3.htm
> 
> "All-Season Tires with Mud and Snow Designation
> If a tire has MS, M+S, M/S or M&S on it, then it meets the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) guidelines for a mud and snow tire. For a tire to receive the Mud and Snow designation, it must meet these geometric requirements (taken from the bulletin "RMA Snow Tire Definitions for Passenger and Light Truck (LT) Tires"):
> 
> 1. New tire treads shall have multiple pockets or slots in at least one tread edge that meet the following dimensional requirements based on mold dimensions:
> 
> Extend toward the tread center at least 1/2 inch from the footprint edge, measured perpendicularly to the tread centerline.
> A minimum cross-sectional width of 1/16 inch.
> Edges of pockets or slots at angles between 35 and 90 degrees from the direction of travel.
> 
> 2. The new tire tread contact surface void area will be a minimum of 25 percent based on mold dimensions.
> 
> The rough translation of this specification is that the tire must have a row of fairly big grooves that start at the edge of the tread and extend toward the center of the tire. Also, at least 25 percent of the surface area must be grooves.
> 
> Severe winter traction icon
> 
> The idea is to give the tread pattern enough void space so that it can bite through the snow and get traction. However, as you can see from the specification, there is no testing involved.
> 
> To address this shortcoming, the Rubber Manufacturers Association and the tire industry have agreed on a standard that does involve testing. The designation is called Severe Snow Use and has a specific icon (see image at right), which goes next to the M/S designation.
> 
> In order to meet this standard, tires must be tested using an American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) testing procedure described in "RMA Definition for Passenger and Light Truck Tires for use in Severe Snow Conditions":
> 
> Tires designed for use in severe snow conditions are recognized by manufacturers to attain a traction index equal to or greater than 110 compared to the ASTM E-1136 Standard Reference Test Tire when using the ASTM F-1805 snow traction test with equivalent percentage loads.
> 
> These tires, in addition to meeting the geometrical requirements for an M/S designation, are tested on snow using a standardized test procedure. They have to do better than the standard reference tire in order to meet the requirements for Severe Snow Use."
> 
> More links
> 
> http://www.blackcircles.com/tyres/winter-tyres/laws-and-legislation
> 
> http://www.etyres.co.uk/winter-tyres
> 
> Two tyres? clip


Jason,
Am I right in saying that the policeman was right M+S are not winter tyres


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## Wupert

tattytony said:


> grizzlyj said:
> 
> 
> 
> d
> 
> 
> 
> Jason,
> Am I right in saying that the policeman was right M+S are not winter tyres
Click to expand...

I would say you are correct.

They are not seen as legal winter tyres in Austria.


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## Twm-Twp

tattytony said:


> Am I right in saying that the policeman was right M+S are not winter tyres


M+S tyres are not winter tyres .... absolutely correct.

But, tyres marked with the M+S symbol on the outside tyre wall fully comply with the winter tyre requirement in Germany and Austria. They (M+S tyres) are legal for use in those countries during the period specified as winter months. It's as simple as that.......providing they have sufficient tread depth (4mm minimum).

To labour the point:

Summer tyres (or ordinary car / van tyres) have tread patterns primarily designed to disperse rain water quickly and aid braking & steering in wet conditions. This applies regardless of the tread design etc - some motorists want to pootle about at 40 / 50 mph all day long and they will buy different or lower quality tyres to the guy who thrashes a Merc S300 up and down the autobahns for example.

M+S tyres (or all-season tyres) in addition to coping safely with wet weather conditions, are better designed to cope with winter driving conditions than summer tyres. In addition to differences in the rubber compound, M+S have a wider tread pattern designed to disperse light snow / slush more efficiently avoiding loss of traction / slides etc. 
The big problem, as I see it, is that M+S tyres are not subjected to a specific testing regime and as one poster has pointed out, some eastern country manufacturers are knocking out cheap M+S tyres which are little better at dealing with slush and light snow than summer tyres. The answer to that is ... don't buy cheapo / crappo tyres .... buy one of the established, quality brands. Cost over safety is ludicrous !!!!

Winter tyres (with the snowflake symbol) are the 'DB's' They are designed to deal with heavy snow conditions and depending entirely on drivers skills will help prevent loss of traction on steering and drive axles when driving in snow. These tyres must be tested to ensure they comply with a certain criteria and are manufactured to a higher standard than M+S tyres.

Finally, and despite whatever else has been written on this subject in this forum. All drivers should be aware that M+S tyres and winter tyres are not the panacea for all winter driving conditions. They will probably not get you up or down a steep snow covered incline especially if you have to stop and start on said incline. In other words, in heavy snow or icy conditions (unless you have a 4-wheel drive and / or studded tyres) you will need to be equipped with good quality snow chains to deal with certain weather or road conditions.

PS: The German policeman was definitely talking tosh if he implied that tyres marked with the M+S symbol do not comply with the legislation covering winter driving in his country.


----------



## grizzlyj

tattytony said:


> ......M+S are not winter tyres


I don't see why?

The tyres on my truck are recommended for snow by Michelin, cost a fortune, but no snowflake/mountain when new.

snipped


Twm-Twp said:


> These tyres .......... are manufactured to a higher standard than M+S tyres.


Why do you say that though?

The Snowflake in a Mountain symbol means they perform 10% better (not much IMHO) than a control all season tyre (not "the best" all season tyre, and possibly one designed in 1999) in a test for cold weather traction, nothing else. Quality is a subjective thing, but the test is surely only one small aspect of a tyres performance?

One thing I read said the best current winter tyres out perform the control tyre by as much as 140%. If the improvement has been that much, then I don't see why plenty of other tyres may well outperform the 10% too.

The snowflake/mountain itself may be on a 140% tyre, or a 110% tyre, you have no way of knowing.

And, since the chunk I quoted in my previous post says the test is for cars and light trucks, American test and terms, perhaps this particular test is indeed entirely inapplicable to anything bigger? Light trucks have a payload of less than 1815kg, the Euro equivalent is a light commercial vehicle (up to 3500kg gross) according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_truck.

I'm just suggesting that having a snowflake/mountain is not by itself as fantastic a leap forward in tyre cold weather performance as you might expect after having read a little into what it actually means.

And perhaps entirely irrelevant if you drive a PHGV


----------



## tattytony

grizzlyj said:


> tattytony said:
> 
> 
> 
> ......M+S are not winter tyres
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see why?
> 
> The tyres on my truck are recommended for snow by Michelin, cost a fortune, but no snowflake/mountain when new.
> 
> snipped
> 
> 
> Twm-Twp said:
> 
> 
> 
> These tyres .......... are manufactured to a higher standard than M+S tyres.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why do you say that though?
> 
> The Snowflake in a Mountain symbol means they perform 10% better (not much IMHO) than a control all season tyre (not "the best" all season tyre, and possibly one designed in 1999) in a test for cold weather traction, nothing else. Quality is a subjective thing, but the test is surely only one small aspect of a tyres performance?
> 
> One thing I read said the best current winter tyres out perform the control tyre by as much as 140%. If the improvement has been that much, then I don't see why plenty of other tyres may well outperform the 10% too.
> 
> The snowflake/mountain itself may be on a 140% tyre, or a 110% tyre, you have no way of knowing.
> 
> And, since the chunk I quoted in my previous post says the test is for cars and light trucks, American test and terms, perhaps this particular test is indeed entirely inapplicable to anything bigger? Light trucks have a payload of less than 1815kg, the Euro equivalent is a light commercial vehicle (up to 3500kg gross) according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_truck.
> 
> I'm just suggesting that having a snowflake/mountain is not by itself as fantastic a leap forward in tyre cold weather performance as you might expect after having read a little into what it actually means.
> 
> And perhaps entirely irrelevant if you drive a PHGV
Click to expand...

tattytony still as confused :?


----------



## nicholsong

When one sees all the useless legislation emanating from Brussels it is surprising that, with several EU countries having severe winter conditions, the EU would have set a standard and not relied upon a US one from 1999.

But EU Commissioners and MEPs probably don't buy tyres for chauffeur-driven cars do they?

Geoff


----------



## grizzlyj

If that was me, sorry 

I think a "snowflake in a mountain" symbol is a good bet for a winter tyre, but read some independant tests to find out which one is best.

And, if you're over 3500kg then the symbol does not seem to apply to you. You might then end up with a quality tyre marked M&S, M+S etc, but no snowflake


----------



## Boff

Hi!



tattytony said:


> The German policeman we were talking to who spoke perfect English and was clear on the fact that Mud + Snow are not winter tyres ...


Well, then his knowledge of the English seems to have been better than of the German road traffic laws. :wink: Because in the German _"Straßenverkehrsordnung"_ (equivalent to Highway Code) it is explicitly stated that Mud+Snow tyres (_"M+S-Reifen"_) are sufficient.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


----------



## Wupert

Twm-Twp said:


> tattytony said:
> 
> 
> 
> Am I right in saying that the policeman was right M+S are not winter tyres
> 
> 
> 
> mply with the winter tyre requirement in Germany and Austria. They (M+S tyres) are legal for use in those countries during the period specified as winter months. It's as simple as that.......providing they have sufficient tread depth (4mm minimum).
> 
> T in his country.
Click to expand...

Sorry Twm

We have a winter business in Austria.

If your tyres do not display the snowflake they will not be legal.

Not sure about Germany but would think the same applies.

If anyone reading this thread is considering buying Winter Tyres then make sure they have the snowflake.


----------



## grizzlyj

I've just confused myself 

First off, this is supposed to be German over 3500kg relevant info, dated Nov 2010, M+S required for goods vehicle category N2 (over 3500kg, under 12000kg). M+S etc mentioned throughout, snowflakein3peaks not.

http://www.bundesrat.de/cln_152/Sha...aw,property=publicationFile.pdf/699-10(B).pdf

Then Pirelli and Continental European country specific info only mentioning a snowflake, not the three peaks with snowflake which is specific to the 110% test.

http://www.pirelli.com/mediaObject/...Winter/winter_truck/original/winter_truck.pdf

http://www.conti-online.com/generat...general/hidden/winter_tyre_guide/guide_en.pdf

But Michelin have a new truck tyre with a snowflakein3peaks.

http://www.cisionwire.com/michelin-...ant-truck-and-coach-tyre-in-a-decade,c9311144

:?


----------



## Twm-Twp

Wupert said:


> If your tyres do not display the snowflake they will not be legal. If anyone reading this thread is considering buying Winter Tyres then make sure they have the snowflake.


I agree with you in that if anyone is thinking of buying winter tyres then they should buy tyres with the snowflake emblem on the sidewall. But don't expect them to be the answer for all snow conditions .... you should also carry snow chains.

Although my m/h (and yours) is fitted with Michelin Aguilis ? M+S tyres, they stand about as much chance of being used on snow covered roads as they do of being used to cross a field full of rocking horse poo !!! The van is parked up for the winter ........ drained, emptied out & de-taxed until next April.

When I use my car to travel to ski-resorts, it is fitted with winter tyres (with the snowflake emblem). I even use them in France.

Interesting to hear that you have a winter business in Austria .... is it connected with winter sports? We will be stopping over in Innsbruck en route to Selva Val Gardena next March.


----------



## BillCreer

Hi,

I have copied this from Etyres website but the same information can easily be found from many other "reliable sources".

Austria
Winter tyres are mandatory in Austria. The law states that passenger cars with a permissible maximum weight of up to 3.5 tonnes may be operated only between 1 November and 15 April in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice if winter tyres have been installed on all wheels. All-season tyres are also considered winter tyres if they have the "M + S" mark.

As an alternative to winter tyres, snow chains may be used on at least two driving wheels, however, these may only be used in case the road is covered by a complete or scarcely broken snow cover or sheet of ice. Failure to comply with the law results in a fine up to 5,000 Euros and the vehicle could be impounded. Insurance is deemed void if a vehicle which is involved in an accident between November 1 and April 15 is not fitted with winter tyres.

Germany

Motorists are obliged to make sure they have correct tyres to suit the winter weather conditions. This may mean the use of winter tyres (with M&S or snowflake symbol) and in extreme weather, the additional use of snow chains.

Vehicles with summer tyres fitted are not allowed to be driven on roads covered with snow and ice. Fines are in place for vehicles found to be doing so.


----------



## BillCreer

Stanner said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> So Michelin or the policeman must be wrong - couldn't be the policeman could it? :wink:
> 
> 'Sorry Officer, did not see you there' :roll:
> 
> Geoff
> 
> 
> 
> Ohh don't worry so much, I'm sure Michelin will fund his defence in the German Court. :wink:
Click to expand...

If you are going to sneer at well meaning advice given by other members, yet again, please check your facts.


----------



## nicholsong

Bill

I am not sure whether your remark about sneering was aimed at me or 'Stanner, since you quoted both our posts.

In mine I simply pointed out that there was conflicting advice. 

As your quote from Etyres suggests the German policeman was wrong.

Geoff


----------



## Stanner

nicholsong said:


> As your quote from Etyres suggests the German policeman was wrong.
> 
> Geoff


and in the case of both countries it sates "in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice" which implies that if road conditions are not like that winter tyres are not obligatory.

It does not state "at all times", or "under all road conditions", between those dates.


----------



## Wupert

Twm-Twp said:


> Wupert said:
> 
> 
> 
> If your tyres do not display the snowflake they will not be legal. If anyon
> 
> Interesting to hear that you have a winter business in Austria .... is it connected with winter sports? We will be stopping over in Innsbruck en route to Selva Val Gardena next March.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Twm
> 
> We have a house 50 kms South of Salzburg and own a ski holiday business that has been running for almost 30 years.
> 
> We are to far East for you to stop over on your way to Val Gardena.
> 
> If you want to detour feel free but check first as we may have groups in the Dollomites
Click to expand...


----------



## Wupert

Stanner said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> As your quote from Etyres suggests the German policeman was wrong.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> 
> 
> and in the case of both countries it sates "in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice" which implies that if road conditions are not like that winter tyres are not obligatory.
> 
> It does not state "at all times", or "under all road conditions", between those dates.
Click to expand...

Winter tyres are mandatory at all times in Austria from mid november until mid March

Believe me I live in Austria

PS Snow chains can only be used on snow covered roads


----------



## Stanner

Wupert said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> As your quote from Etyres suggests the German policeman was wrong.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> 
> 
> and in the case of both countries it sates "in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice" which implies that if road conditions are not like that winter tyres are not obligatory.
> 
> It does not state "at all times", or "under all road conditions", between those dates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Winter tyres are mandatory at all times in Austria from mid november until mid March
> 
> Believe me I live in Austria
> 
> PS Snow chains can only be used on snow covered roads
Click to expand...

Oh I believe you.

But in that case it should clearly say exactly that and not specify particular conditions under which they are required instead.

I agree that the conditions for the use of snow chains IS clearly specified however.


----------



## BillCreer

nicholsong said:


> Bill
> 
> I am not sure whether your remark about sneering was aimed at me or 'Stanner, since you quoted both our posts.
> 
> In mine I simply pointed out that there was conflicting advice.
> 
> As your quote from Etyres suggests the German policeman was wrong.
> 
> Geoff


Hi Geoff,

No it was not intended for you.


----------



## Stanner

BillCreer said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bill
> 
> I am not sure whether your remark about sneering was aimed at me or 'Stanner, since you quoted both our posts.
> 
> In mine I simply pointed out that there was conflicting advice.
> 
> As your quote from Etyres suggests the German policeman was wrong.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Geoff,
> 
> No it was not intended for you.
Click to expand...

So it was intended for me then?

On what basis?

All I said was if Michelin were so sure their interpretation of the law was right they would (or should) be willing to defend it in court if necessary.

No sneering there that I can see, just that if a company tells you it's product is good for a particular use they should be prepared to indemnify you if you rely on that advice.


----------



## BillCreer

Wupert said:


> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> As your quote from Etyres suggests the German policeman was wrong.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> 
> 
> and in the case of both countries it sates "in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice" which implies that if road conditions are not like that winter tyres are not obligatory.
> 
> It does not state "at all times", or "under all road conditions", between those dates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Winter tyres are mandatory at all times in Austria from mid november until mid March
> 
> Believe me I live in Austria
> 
> PS Snow chains can only be used on snow covered roads
Click to expand...

Hi,

I think you are missing the point. Tyres marked M&S are counted as "winter tyres" in Germany and Austria.
People who have tyres such as Michelin Agilis Camping, which are only marked M&S, can legally drive on them during the winter in Germany and Austria as long as the tread depth is more than 4mm.


----------



## Stanner

tattytony said:


> tattytony still as confused :?


So am I.

Who's going to tell the Polizei he's wrong?


----------



## Wupert

BillCreer said:


> Wupert said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> As your quote from Etyres suggests the German policeman was wrong.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> 
> 
> and in the case of both countries it sates "in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice" which implies that if road conditions are not like that winter tyres are not obligatory.
> 
> It does not state "at all times", or "under all road conditions", between those dates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Winter tyres are mandatory at all times in Austria from mid november until mid March
> 
> Believe me I live in Austria
> 
> PS Snow chains can only be used on snow covered roads
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I think you are missing the point. Tyres marked M&S are counted as "winter tyres" in Germany and Austria.
> People who have tyres such as Michelin Agilis Camping, which are only marked M&S, can legally drive on them during the winter in Germany and Austria as long as the tread depth is more than 4mm.
Click to expand...

I think you may be reading info that is out of date.

Winter tyres i.e ie. with the snowflake are mandatory in Austria between Mid Nov - Mid March

Should you wish to drive during those times with M&S do so at your own risk

Should you be involved in any accident you will be considerd the guilty party

Use a "Snowflake free" tyre at your peril 

'tis my last post on this thread


----------



## Stanner

Wupert said:


> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wupert said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> As your quote from Etyres suggests the German policeman was wrong.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> 
> 
> and in the case of both countries it sates "in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice" which implies that if road conditions are not like that winter tyres are not obligatory.
> 
> It does not state "at all times", or "under all road conditions", between those dates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Winter tyres are mandatory at all times in Austria from mid november until mid March
> 
> Believe me I live in Austria
> 
> PS Snow chains can only be used on snow covered roads
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I think you are missing the point. Tyres marked M&S are counted as "winter tyres" in Germany and Austria.
> People who have tyres such as Michelin Agilis Camping, which are only marked M&S, can legally drive on them during the winter in Germany and Austria as long as the tread depth is more than 4mm.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you may be reading info that is out of date.
> 
> Winter tyres i.e ie. with the snowflake are mandatory in Austria between Mid Nov - Mid March
> 
> Should you wish to drive during those times with M&S do so at your own risk
> 
> Should you be involved in any accident you will be considerd the guilty party
> 
> Use a "Snowflake free" tyre at your peril
> 
> 'tis my last post on this thread
Click to expand...

This is the very point that I was accused of "sneering" about.

Michelin do not accept that and state that their "snowflake free" Agilis tyres are legal.

So with my lip now firmly curled (this time) I ask "Will Michelin defend IN COURT anyone charged with using their M+S (only) tyres during the winter in Austria?"

As I shall be visiting Germany soon, so can any of you advise the best retailers there for winter tyres?
I know Ratio in Trier were selling them at an excellent price last year but don't know whether they can arrange fitting. Hela (just across Zurmainer Str from Ratio) have a full fitting bay, but couldn't see any prices so don't know how they compare.

Anyone want some part worn XC Campings?


----------



## Wupert

Stanner said:


> Wupert said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BillCreer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wupert said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> As your quote from Etyres suggests the German policeman was wrong.
> 
> Geoff
> 
> 
> 
> and in the case of both countries it sates "in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice" which implies that if road conditions are not like that winter tyres are not obligatory.
> 
> It does not state "at all times", or "under all road conditions", between those dates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Winter tyres are mandatory at all times in Austria from mid november until mid March
> 
> Believe me I live in Austria
> 
> PS Snow chains can only be used on snow covered roads
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I think you are missing the point. Tyres marked M&S are counted as "winter tyres" in Germany and Austria.
> People who have tyres such as Michelin Agilis Camping, which are only marked M&S, can legally drive on them during the winter in Germany and Austria as long as the tread depth is more than 4mm.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you may be reading info that is out of date.
> 
> Winter tyres i.e ie. with the snowflake are mandatory in Austria between Mid Nov - Mid March
> 
> Should you wish to drive during those times with M&S do so at your own risk
> 
> Should you be involved in any accident you will be considerd the guilty party
> 
> Use a "Snowflake free" tyre at your peril
> 
> 'tis my last post on this thread
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is the very point that I was accused of "sneering" about.
> 
> Michelin do not accept that and state that their "snowflake free" Agilis tyres are legal.
> 
> So with my lip now firmly curled (this time) I ask "Will Michelin defend IN COURT anyone charged with using their M+S (only) tyres during the winter in Austria?"
> 
> As I shall be visiting Germany soon, so can any of you advise the best retailers there for winter tyres?
> I know Ratio in Trier were selling them at an excellent price last year but don't know whether they can arrange fitting. Hela (just across Zurmainer Str from Ratio) have a full fitting bay, but couldn't see any prices so don't know how they compare.
> 
> Anyone want some part worn XC Campings?
Click to expand...

Hi Stanner

I have googled and come up with the same info as you so my apologies if our wires crossed.

We asked the Austrian traffic police a few years back about tSnow tyres "They said as far as they were concerned there had to be a Snowflake to be a genuine Snow Tyre".

All the local drivers fit "Snowflake" tyres on Nov 1 every year and remove them around Easter time.

I wouldn't under any circumstances drive in any vehicle in Alpine regions without the Snowflake


----------



## Wupert

Any reputable Tyre place will have stocks available usually within 24 hours.

I'm sorry but I dont have any names.

Bridgestone make a good tyre


----------



## GRUMPYOB

I'm still none the wiser about what to do tyre wise. My Kontiki is rated at 4.25tons and all the info available seems to relate to vehicles under 3.5 tons. I have XC camping tyres on mine and they're crap. The front wheels spun on a wet tollbooth exit in France this summer and I got stuck on a wet grass slope in June that my mates Agilis equipped Kontiki drove straight up. I'm not looking forward to winter use and certainly won't lay the camper up, that's not what I got it for. MY tyres are 225/75 R 16. Anyone got real experience of that size and my weight with winter tyres so I can decide which way to go please? My XC's have loads of tread but if I can't get about in winter I may have to bite the bullet and spend big for replacements so any feedback on makes and your experience would be appreciated.


----------



## Stanner

Wupert said:


> Hi Stanner
> 
> I have googled and come up with the same info as you so my apologies if our wires crossed.
> 
> We asked the Austrian traffic police a few years back about tSnow tyres "They said as far as they were concerned there had to be a Snowflake to be a genuine Snow Tyre".
> 
> All the local drivers fit "Snowflake" tyres on Nov 1 every year and remove them around Easter time.
> 
> I wouldn't under any circumstances drive in any vehicle in Alpine regions without the Snowflake


I didn't find any info - I was simply commenting on the conflicting information posted by you and BillCreer. You stating what you had been told and Bill stating what he had received from Michelin.

My point was that if what you were told was correct Michelin were providing duff information to their customers and should be prepared to defend customers in court should they rely on that information and get prosecuted.

It now appears you feel that what you were told may not be entirely correct, but will that help someone stopped by the Polizei and they won't take Michelin's word for it??


----------



## Twm-Twp

GRUMPYOB said:


> My Kontiki is rated at 4.25tons and all the info available seems to relate to vehicles under 3.5 tons.


I must have missed something .... what makes you think that the winter tyre / M+S tyre requirement only applies to vehicles under 3.5 tonnes ?????


----------



## GRUMPYOB

The guidelines I've read seem to specify vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes. I haven't found anything relating specifically to commercial weights or over 3.5 tonnes. Please correct me if I'm missing something as new tyres are not cheap as you know, even though I'm unhappy with the current XC camoing ones.


----------



## grizzlyj

GRUMPYOB said:


> The guidelines I've read seem to specify vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes. I haven't found anything relating specifically to commercial weights or over 3.5 tonnes. Please correct me if I'm missing something as new tyres are not cheap as you know, even though I'm unhappy with the current XC camoing ones.


See my last post in this thread?????


----------



## foxtwo

Some clarification out of german point of view.

An obligation for having winter tyres in Germany during a specific time (e.g. November to March) is not existing in german law.

However, in case the road condition !!! will be 
snow or slush or hoarfrost or ice , then it is an obligation per law, to be euipped with winter tyres.
That means, it is depending on the road condition. As well that means, when it will be a warm winter without snow and ice and only rainy conditions or snow is finished, you need no winter tyres.

A tyre is a winter tyre in Germany, when the two letters M+S (Matsch und Schnee/ slush and snow) are on the tyre. Only this will be examined by police.

The law is applicable for all cars, independent of weight.
Trailers do not need M+S tyres.

For parked cars the law is not applicable, you can park on official roads without M+S tyres, but you are not allowed to drive the car on the road.

The minimum condition/depth of profil is 1.6 millimeters per law.

Cars registered in foreign countries need M+S tyres in germany, when the a.m. road conditions occur.

Driving in snow without M+S tyres and beeing caught by Police costs 40 Euros.

Regards
Bernd


----------



## GRUMPYOB

Cheers grizzlyj, I've just read all of your last post and made some sense of the situation at last. The info from tyre manufacturers makes sense. Looked at the prices of suitable tyres too and think Christmas markets in Germany are best left until next year when the existing tyres are nearer replacement.


----------



## Wupert

Just like to add Proper Winter tyres have in addition to the Snowflake an arrow giving the direction of rotation of the tyre.

So when fitting check the arrow

For a few Euros extra it makes little sense chancing things on M&S

The difference in traction is noticeable.


----------



## nicholsong

'an arrow giving the direction of rotation of the tyre.' 

So now we have to change tyres to reverse?  

Geoff


----------



## Pat-H

nicholsong said:


> 'an arrow giving the direction of rotation of the tyre.'
> 
> So now we have to change tyres to reverse?
> 
> Geoff


Also the tyres become handed then. Swapping the tyres from the OS to the NS would swap the rotation direction....


----------



## nicholsong

Pat-H said:


> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'an arrow giving the direction of rotation of the tyre.'
> 
> So now we have to change tyres to reverse?
> 
> Geoff
> 
> 
> 
> Also the tyres become handed then. Swapping the tyres from the OS to the NS would swap the rotation direction....
Click to expand...

And soon they will be marked 'Front' or 'Back' and 'This side up!' or like the X boxes 'For use in Austria only'

Geoff


----------



## BillCreer

Wupert said:


> Just like to add Proper Winter tyres have in addition to the Snowflake an arrow giving the direction of rotation of the tyre.
> 
> So when fitting check the arrow
> 
> For a few Euros extra it makes little sense chancing things on M&S
> 
> The difference in traction is noticeable.


Trouble is that it is not just a few Euros if you have already invested in some Michelin Agils Camping marked M&S which are perfectly legal to use in Germany and Austria.

I know that Full Winter Tyres give superior grip but, in many cases, that means that the accident just happens at a higher speed.

I think if most of us lived for many months in an Alpine climate we would invest in a set of full winter tyres but we don't.

Armed with a set of chains I would not hesitate to drive to Germany or Austria tomorrow in my Agils Camping shod van.


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## Stanner

nicholsong said:


> 'an arrow giving the direction of rotation of the tyre.'
> 
> So now we have to change tyres to reverse?
> 
> Geoff


It's not just winter tyres - it's all tyres (winter or otherwise) with a directional tread pattern that have to be fitted in accordance with the direction of rotation marked on the sidewall.

..................and it only applies to the 99.999% of your driving when you are going forwards. :wink:

http://www.etyres.co.uk/glossary-tyre-terms?term=directional


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## GRUMPYOB

I'd be happy with agillis and snow chains instead of the xc camping which slip on wet roads. Not looking forward to too much winter use. Suppose I'll have to be selective and watch the weather forecasts carefully. At least if I get somewhere I can always stay until the weather inproves!!!!!


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