# French Hell and a Clutch



## grumpyman

Was not to sure under which section I should have placed this but sure a Mod. will check. 
Well Tuesday evening set off from home down to Dover for our long awaited break. Onto the P&O Ferry at 5am having stopped for a few hours at Canterbury Park and Ride. 
By 1pm on the Wednesday turned onto the A13 at Rouen changed gear clutch pedal went flat to the floor, made it to a emergency lane a few yards away. Checked around but just knew the clutch had gone (13,000 miles 3 years 3 month old). 
Rang Caravan Guard Assistance to be informed that due to French Laws if you breakdown on any Motorway only their Emergency Assistance is allowed to attend. Rang 17 and after 45 minutes Low Loader arrives and we are taken to Garage DE LA Chouque which obviously was the drivers own Garage. 
Immediately got onto Caravan Guard as my French is limited and I had been told by Caravan Guard my vehicle would be taken to a Peugeot Garage. (Bear in mind no Peugeot dealers have workshops big enough for Motorhomes) 

A few conversations then took place between Caravan Guard and the owner which I will not go into yet as I am in discussion with them over a possible dispute which they may yet resolve. Anyway it is agreed this garage will carry out the repairs which obviously was a new clutch, then the first shock My vehicle would not be ready until the following Monday. (It is now Wednesday afternoon) Why so long this is a French vehicle.? 

Anyway we need to turn everything off and so hand over the contents of our Fridge to the Mechanics stuff some items in bags and are picked up by a lovely French Lady Caravan Guard having organised accommodation. 
Our only conciliation is that this area has seen nor rain for the past 3 months and is lovely and warm. 
Monday comes and we are told Van will not be ready until Tuesday morning. Tuesday comes it will be ready Tuesday afternoon then Tuesday night. Then Wednesday morning, then Wednesday night. Finally Wednesday afternoon I manage to get a lift to the garage as we are some 5 miles away.Insist on seeing my Van which is parked up Bonnet down no work taking place. Staff very sheepish and tell me it needs a test drive come back at 5.30 as we told your Insurance. I inform them I will sit and wait 5 minutes late van drives out of garage 1 minute test drive I am told it is ready. I am then presented with a bill for over 1100 Euro 8O and i know if I do not pay it I don't get the van and we had had enough by now. Same job in UK Peugeot dealer 900 Euro. Obviously I have been ripped off and am attempting to do something about it. I post this for other reasons though. 
1. I insisted on having the old clutch back both plates burnt. 
2. My vehicle a Peugeot 2.2 HDI 2006 reg had developed a slight judder. 
3. Be careful if you break down on a French Motorway 

Oh and also we received two telephone calls whilst stuck there around the deaths of two close friends and so just wanted to get home. Had paid £68 with P&O return. On getting to Calais explained the situation and was told pay another £61 just to get home that day. 
On the return journey passed French Farmers demonstrating and one thought it fun to punch the side of our van whilst stood with a French Police Officer who just laughed. :evil: 
The elderly French people we stopped with were lovely and live in a large house with car parking and would love to have Motorhomes stop over night for a moderate charge which I will post the details later. :wink:


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## CaGreg

See what happens when you leave our loving care. Hurry back to us and don't be minding them foreign people. Carol and I have home baked goodies and reassuring soup, we would welcome you with open arms,..... honest.

Ca


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## 113016

My Brother in Law has had (having at this very moment) a similar experience with a Volvo premature cam belt failure.
It will be costing him 6300 euro and the RAC recovery agents in Bordeaux and the office were not very good at all.
There will most certainly be legal action following his return.
He has been there for well over a week and just wants to get home.


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## Penquin

I moved this as it seemed more appropriate in French touring than Autocruise, what a nightmare of a trip - we should all take note.

Dave


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## 113016

By the way, it is not just the Autoroutes that you have to have the police get the recovery company.
It also applies to some of the large Bridges including the access roads and I think possibly some of the RN dual carriageways


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## julie798

*breakdown*

Sorry to hear about yourproblems it must be awful.
I think the breakdown recovery is the same in all of europe, if you breakdown on the motorway, you have to get off it before your cover commences, well thats what happened to us in Spain, luckily enough I had read it in the small print and waited until the next junction before pulling off, luckily for us it was nothing, the guy in the garage in Burgos repaired it in 0.1 seconds Lol !


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## barryd

We love France and spent a good part of this summer there. Everyone we met was charming and welcoming. However. Two incidents that cause concern and your story make me even more worried. Our *PEUGEOT* bike broke down in the Mid Pyrenees. All it was was a drive belt. To cut a very long story short we were charged 20 Euros by the first bike shop to look at it for an afternoon and tell me it was broken. They couldnt fix it as they couldnt get a belt. 7 bike shops later and the fastest it could be done was 2 weeks, perhaps. Had to arrange with my local dealer in NE England to ship a drive belt out to a Honda Dealer to fit. Came next day which was a Friday afternoon. They didnt work Sat, Sun or Monday so eventually got the bike back on the following Wednesday. Last few days we had a blow out on the van. Eventually the breakdown guy came out, was rude, and refused to get under the van to get the spare as he felt his jack was unsafe so I should do it! I have complained to the AA.

Would like to go back and spend some more time in France but breaking down are needing something fixing does seem to be a worry. I thought perhaps our incidents were isolated but perhaps not!


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## carolgavin

Gummy hunny is yours on the new or old chassis. If on the new one (some were built end 2006) might be worth posting on the judder thread. 
bet you are glad you are home more or less intact. Come into chat later where Ca and I will soothe all your troubles away...............................

We have the benefit of not being from French France and don't speak a furreign language, well we don't think scottish and irish counts does it???


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## china

The cost of replacing the clutch 1100 Euros in france or 900 Euros in Uk is very expensive, I have not had one changed for for years has anyone had one changed recently
Peter


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## grumpyman

carolgavin said:


> Gummy hunny is yours on the new or old chassis. If on the new one (some were built end 2006) might be worth posting on the judder thread.
> bet you are glad you are home more or less intact. Come into chat later where Ca and I will soothe all your troubles away...............................
> 
> We have the benefit of not being from French France and don't speak a furreign language, well we don't think scottish and irish counts does it???


Carol, Nice to hear from you it is the old model May 2006 but could still have the same clutch as the new model.?


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## loddy

I read the post with interest, clutch going flat to floor isn't a sign of a clutch failure, it's a sign of hydraulic or cable failure between pedal and release mechanism.
If you still had drive in other words the engine was still connected to the gear box why didn't you continue on to the next exit?

I used to work the Motorways M4 M5 for years and could not understand why people stopped on the hard shoulder when they could have continued on a short distance and saved themselves pounds

Loddy


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## gaspode

loddy said:


> clutch going flat to floor isn't a sign of a clutch failure, it's a sign of hydraulic or cable failure between pedal and release mechanism.


Absolutely correct Loddy.

If a clutch is "burnt out" the pedal will work normally but you'll lose drive from engine to wheels (or more usually when you try to accelerate the engine will rev up without any real increase in speed).

I suspect you've been completely duped and ripped off.


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## grumpyman

loddy said:


> I read the post with interest, clutch going flat to floor isn't a sign of a clutch failure, it's a sign of hydraulic or cable failure between pedal and release mechanism.
> If you still had drive in other words the engine was still connected to the gear box why didn't you continue on to the next exit?
> 
> I used to work the Motorways M4 M5 for years and could not understand why people stopped on the hard shoulder when they could have continued on a short distance and saved themselves pounds
> 
> Loddy


Yes I agree I could have carried on forcing the gears to change by the use of the engine and in my younger days drove a j4 from Scotland to Stoke by that means. On this occasion I was sat in my 35 grand Motorhome on a steep incline, did not know where the next exit was or if it just lead me into a even more dangerous point to stop. I believe my system is Hydraulic and as i said I have the burnt plates.


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## grumpyman

What I also forgot to mention is that after getting to the garage the pedal did return slightly but on attempting to drive it would judder and stall. Any thoughts.


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## loddy

If you could stall the engine then the clutch still had life in it, if you have in your possesion plates then they are not yours, you should have three components, clutch centre plate known as a drive plate, pressure assembly ( a big round thing with a diaphram spring within ) and a release bearing. I would question the fitter and ascertain what was done

Loddy


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## gaspode

grumpyman said:


> after getting to the garage the pedal did return slightly but on attempting to drive it would judder and stall


Hmmm.......
The plot thickens. :?

Still sounds to me that there may have been a hydraulic problem. :? 
When you say that "both" plates were "burnt" do you mean both sides of the friction plate, the friction plate and pressure plate or did they also replace the flywheel? Also what do you mean by "burnt"? Were the steel plates scored, buckled, discoloured etc. Were the friction plate linings intact, worn or missing? What was the condition of the release bearing? Were the spring/s broken or worn?

You were certainly charged an awful lot of cash and kept waiting far too long for what sounds like a fairly straightforward job. My first thought would be that they simply assumed a clutch failure, ordered a standard clutch plate set, replaced it and then found that the fault persisted. The extra time would be for them to sort out the hydraulics which probably caused the problem in the first place.

Impossible to prove retrospectively but definitely suspicious.


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## erneboy

Is yours an X250, 3 years and 3 months makes it borderline I think, I believe they were launched in 1996 with the hydraulic clutch, the older ones, I think, had cable clutches. If it is an X250 some people have had clutch failures when the pedal stuck down, I do not know why that happens. If it is not and has a traditional flywheel fitted then as already suggested, it does sound suspicious, Alan.


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## grumpyman

Here is a photo


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## lafree

Hi Grumpyman, Did Caravan Guard pay for you Hotel ?, we called for recovery at Guines on 16th of September steering lock jammed and were taken to Fiat garage in Calais and then taken to a hotel but had to pay the bill we are still trying to reclaim the hotel and taxi money back.
Regard Lafree


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## grumpyman

lafree said:


> Hi Grumpyman, Did Caravan Guard pay for you Hotel ?, we called for recovery at Guines on 16th of September steering lock jammed and were taken to Fiat garage in Calais and then taken to a hotel but had to pay the bill we are still trying to reclaim the hotel and taxi money back.
> Regard Lafree


Your Policy should cover you for the Hotel OR a hire car for 72 hours.Cover is for one night £30 each for driver and up to 5 passengers or 3 extra nights if the vehicle can not be repaired within 24 hours same amounts again. I took the car hire which provides a higher amount and new i was stuck for longer than the periods covered.


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## gaspode

It's very difficult to draw any conclusions from that photo, not enough detail. It looks as if some of the friction lining may be damaged at the top of the driven plate but I can't see any reason why that would cause the pedal to go to the floor. Are you sure this is the actual clutch removed from your van?

Not a lot you can do now anyway but if you're curious it may be interesting to take it to your local Fiat dealer and ask them to comment.


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## grumpyman

gaspode said:


> It's very difficult to draw any conclusions from that photo, not enough detail. It looks as if some of the friction lining may be damaged at the top of the driven plate but I can't see any reason why that would cause the pedal to go to the floor. Are you sure this is the actual clutch removed from your van?
> 
> Not a lot you can do now anyway but if you're curious it may be interesting to take it to your local Fiat dealer and ask them to comment.


The friction lining is missing from 50% of the plate. The only way I will be able to answer if this is from my Van is as you say take it to a Peugeot Dealer as the part numbers are clearly stamped.


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## Stanner

gaspode said:


> It's very difficult to draw any conclusions from that photo, not enough detail. It looks as if some of the friction lining may be damaged at the top of the driven plate but I can't see any reason why that would cause the pedal to go to the floor. Are you sure this is the actual clutch removed from your van?
> 
> Not a lot you can do now anyway but if you're curious it may be interesting to take it to your local Fiat dealer and ask them to comment.


Yep that looks like one lifted from the skip out the back of the workshop. If I were you I'd be very tempted to take that to a local motor factors and ask them if it matches the correct clutch for your model.

If it isn't, I'd be asking some more much more searching questions elsewhere.

The only times I've had "clutch failure" where the pedal went to the floor and stayed there, it was either the slave cylinder that had gone or the cable had failed.


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## grumpyman

Yep that looks like one lifted from the skip out the back of the workshop. If I were you I'd be very tempted to take that to a local motor factors and ask them if it matches the correct clutch for your model.

If it isn't, I'd be asking some more much more searching questions elsewhere.

The only times I've had "clutch failure" where the pedal went to the floor and stayed there, it was either the slave cylinder that had gone or the cable had failed.[/quote]

Obviously it is difficult for you to reach any positive conclusions from the photos what I can say is that the parts are not old and the part numbers can be seen clearly and there is no signs of rust but i will still check as advised.


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## gaspode

grumpyman said:


> The friction lining is missing from 50% of the plate.


OK, I think I've figured out what has happened. It was the "burnt out" bit that made me suspicious.

My suspicion is that a section of the driven plate lining has broken off and become wedged between the driven and pressure plates causing the release bearing to be pushed backwards and possibly jammed. Can't be certain but it's a possible explanation.. It could also explain why you re-gained some pedal travel later because the loose bits of lining could have moved around within the clutch cover.

Like I said before, not a lot you can do about it anyway. Even if you could establish that there had been some fraud, how do you hold a French garage to account after you've paid up in good faith?


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## sallytrafic

So is a mod going to move it again - perhaps to a Clutch judder forum now? 

To have fallen apart like that in so short a time it is evidence of some serious underlying problem


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## grumpyman

gaspode said:


> grumpyman said:
> 
> 
> 
> The friction lining is missing from 50% of the plate.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I think I've figured out what has happened. It was the "burnt out" bit that made me suspicious.
> 
> My suspicion is that a section of the driven plate lining has broken off and become wedged between the driven and pressure plates causing the release bearing to be pushed backwards and possibly jammed. Can't be certain but it's a possible explanation.. It could also explain why you re-gained some pedal travel later because the loose bits of lining could have moved around within the clutch cover.
> 
> Like I said before, not a lot you can do about it anyway. Even if you could establish that there had been some fraud, how do you hold a French garage to account after you've paid up in good faith?
Click to expand...

That is exactly what I can see parts of the plate lining are wedged in the other plate and cover.


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## Telbell

Can't comment on the mechanical sied grumpyman but just to offer sympathies and hope you get full satisfaction before very long.

Can't help thinking a bit of the "...but for the Grace of God...." :roll: (or Fiat)


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## BIGMILLIE

May be revalent to above posts I run a Ford Mondeo fitted with a Ford/ Peugeot engine the action of the clutch pedal staying on the floor is a failure of the concentric slave cylinder which is caused by the failure of the duel mass flywheel a common fault with duel mass flywheels (not sure if you have one but most modern diesels have them)
This has happened to me 3 times (vehicle done 166000 miles)

regards Charles


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## Mike48

Having replaced many car clutches over the years - and I've not seen a van clutch ever - the clutch in the photo looks very small to me for a commercial vehicle.

What I do know is that DMFs are notoriously unreliable and, unfortuneatly, all modern vehicles seem to have them.


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## erneboy

I do not know a great deal about DMF set ups but I understand that the DMF uses a friction plate without springs in it as the shock absorbtion function is built into the flywheel.

If your is an X250 then I think there should be no springs in the friction plate, the one in the photograph does have springs.

Is your an X250, Alan.


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## grumpyman

erneboy said:


> I do not know a great deal about DMF set ups but I understand that the DMF uses a friction plate without springs in it as the shock absorbtion function is built into the flywheel.
> 
> If your is an X250 then I think there should be no springs in the friction plate, the one in the photograph does have springs.
> 
> Is your an X250, Alan.


No Alan it is the previous model Reg May 2006. Dave


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## tony50

*Clutch,gone in France*



grumpyman said:


> Here is a photo


I've looked at photo,job to tell,As Gaspode seems they renewed clutch assembly ,then " hey up it's the hydraulic"
You didn't say if the bill includes recovery,if it does ,you want to see What a Company called " On Time " charges to tow a vehicle off the M 25, also consider these breakdowns are not used on a regular basis but cost a lot to keeo on the road.
Another thought,I was at the Exel exhibition for homes abroard we were approached by a Spanish Sol Bank Rep. she said you need a bank acc. I said if we buy we will do ,but you don't really want us over there she said of course we do I then said we may buy else where , really don't want us liviving over there she said no we don't,( I can some saying we have good friends on the continent, so have we. The Germane and the Dutch seem to take an ok view.After all the above that's why you have been ripped off.


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## tony50

*clutch replacement*

Just read my thoughts properly, please excuse bad spelling and grammer.


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## derek500

*Re: clutch replacement*



tony50 said:


> Just read my thoughts properly, please excuse bad spelling and grammer.


As long as you know what you're rambling on about, that's the main thing


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## grumpyman

*Re: Clutch,gone in France*



tony50 said:


> grumpyman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a photo
> 
> 
> 
> I've looked at photo,job to tell,As Gaspode seems they renewed clutch assembly ,then " hey up it's the hydraulic"
> You didn't say if the bill includes recovery,if it does ,you want to see What a Company called " On Time " charges to tow a vehicle off the M 25, also consider these breakdowns are not used on a regular basis but cost a lot to keeo on the road.
> Another thought,I was at the Exel exhibition for homes abroard we were approached by a Spanish Sol Bank Rep. she said you need a bank acc. I said if we buy we will do ,but you don't really want us over there she said of course we do I then said we may buy else where , really don't want us liviving over there she said no we don't,( I can some saying we have good friends on the continent, so have we. The Germane and the Dutch seem to take an ok view.After all the above that's why you have been ripped off.
Click to expand...

Tony, sorry tried to read your thoughts but failed, :wink: The Rescue off the Motorway was a further 138 Euro and let me tell you he was fetching vehicles in all the time I was there. He has the contract with the Police and so no competition.


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## tony50

*Clutch gone in France*

Hi Grumpyman ,then they have ripped you off.

Hi Derek500 in a nutshell the Spanish and French want your money(and will rip you off) ,but don't want you,having never lived in either country I have to rely on what friends say who have lived there for many years,they may seem welcoming you to your face , and as one friend put it try getting a job in this financial crisis.


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## derek500

*Re: Clutch gone in France*



tony50 said:


> Hi Derek500 in a nutshell the Spanish and French want your money(and will rip you off) ,but don't want you


Having lived in Spain for over six years I've found the opposite.

There are many Brits who come to live in Spain and they all live together in enclaves, open 'British' shops and bars and don't bother to learn the language and integrate. No wonder the Spanish are p****d off.

I'm sure if a bunch of Spaniards did the same in Britain, the Brits would feel the same.

I can honestly say I have only been ripped off once, and that was by an expat Brit electrician, the first week we lived here.

Since then I've only used Spanish tradesmen and have had excellent service at good prices.

My local Fiat dealer charges 31€ per hour labour and I've yet to pay more than 110€ for my annual service.


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## grumpyman

*Re: Clutch gone in France*



derek500 said:


> tony50 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Derek500 in a nutshell the Spanish and French want your money(and will rip you off) ,but don't want you
> 
> 
> 
> Having lived in Spain for over six years I've found the opposite.
> 
> There are many Brits who come to live in Spain and they all live together in enclaves, open 'British' shops and bars and don't bother to learn the language and integrate. No wonder the Spanish are p****d off.
> 
> I'm sure if a bunch of Spaniards did the same in Britain, the Brits would feel the same.
> 
> I can honestly say I have only been ripped off once, and that was by an expat Brit electrician, the first week we lived here.
> 
> Since then I've only used Spanish tradesmen and have had excellent service at good prices.
> 
> My local Fiat dealer charges 31€ per hour labour and I've yet to pay more than 110€ for my annual service.
Click to expand...

This French Garage is charging 32 Euro per hour and is not a Main Dealer. :roll:


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## grumpyman

Well three Mechanics have examined the Clutch as shown in the photos. As far as all three are concerned they are from my Van. The reason they all give for the peddle going to the floor is that my clutch was as good as metal to metal and due to the heat it would have seized the plates together. Once cooled the plates have allowed the pedal to return. 
Their estimated time for fitting a new one 6 to 8 hours. Just to add to the problems on Monday morning we intended to set off for a funeral in Wales. Opened the van turned key no power. After 2 hours I get hold of a Retired Auto Electrician. Result your Battery is shot they did not earth it properly to the Gear Box after they fitted the clutch and it has discharged. Suggests strongly I get a new one before going anywhere like Wales. Drive to local Battery Dealer where once turning off it will not start new Battery another £100. :evil:


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## zappy61

*Re: Clutch gone in France*



derek500 said:


> tony50 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Derek500 in a nutshell the Spanish and French want your money(and will rip you off) ,but don't want you
> 
> 
> 
> Having lived in Spain for over six years I've found the opposite.
> 
> There are many Brits who come to live in Spain and they all live together in enclaves, open 'British' shops and bars and don't bother to learn the language and integrate. No wonder the Spanish are p****d off.
> 
> I'm sure if a bunch of Spaniards did the same in Britain, the Brits would feel the same.
> 
> I can honestly say I have only been ripped off once, and that was by an expat Brit electrician, the first week we lived here.
> 
> Since then I've only used Spanish tradesmen and have had excellent service at good prices.
> 
> My local Fiat dealer charges 31€ per hour labour and I've yet to pay more than 110€ for my annual service.
Click to expand...

Hi Derek,

There's quite a bit of that here Derek, its a good old saying isn't it; when in rome........................

Graham


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## grumpyman

gaspode said:


> grumpyman said:
> 
> 
> 
> The friction lining is missing from 50% of the plate.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I think I've figured out what has happened. It was the "burnt out" bit that made me suspicious.
> 
> My suspicion is that a section of the driven plate lining has broken off and become wedged between the driven and pressure plates causing the release bearing to be pushed backwards and possibly jammed. Can't be certain but it's a possible explanation.. It could also explain why you re-gained some pedal travel later because the loose bits of lining could have moved around within the clutch cover.
> 
> Like I said before, not a lot you can do about it anyway. Even if you could establish that there had been some fraud, how do you hold a French garage to account after you've paid up in good faith?
Click to expand...

Gaspode thanks for your reply probably the the most accurate having as I say placed the Clutch plates on a table amongst a load of Mechanics interestingly the Retired Mechanics got it all wrong. They all loved the answer this Clutch was from a skip as they did not realise a Skip needed a Clutch. :wink:


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## time-traveller

grumpyman said:


> Well three Mechanics have examined the Clutch as shown in the photos. As far as all three are concerned they are from my Van. The reason they all give for the peddle going to the floor is that my clutch was as good as metal to metal and due to the heat it would have seized the plates together. Once cooled the plates have allowed the pedal to return.
> Their estimated time for fitting a new one 6 to 8 hours. Just to add to the problems on Monday morning we intended to set off for a funeral in Wales. Opened the van turned key no power. After 2 hours I get hold of a Retired Auto Electrician. Result your Battery is shot they did not earth it properly to the Gear Box after they fitted the clutch and it has discharged. Suggests strongly I get a new one before going anywhere like Wales. Drive to local Battery Dealer where once turning off it will not start new Battery another £100. :evil:


I don't get it .. 8O 8O ... Can someone explain to me how a battery can be discharged because it wasn't earthed 'properly' to the gearbox ?


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## Tailendcharley

Wondering that myself Time-Traveller..... 8O 8O 


Eagerly awaiting the reply :wink: :wink: 


Regards

Smithy 8O 8O


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## sallytrafic

Perhaps it wasn't getting a charge as it wasn't referenced to the alternator but the radio, canbus, alarm, or other system discharged it.


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## time-traveller

sallytrafic said:


> Perhaps it wasn't getting a charge as it wasn't referenced to the alternator but the radio, canbus, alarm, or other system discharged it.


Yes - I think it more likely that the alternator wasn't charging at all, but nothing to do with the gearbox earthing, and the battery simply went flat - or that co-incidentally to the clutch problem the battery simply went 'duff' and needed to be repkaced - which is more likely.


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## sallytrafic

time-traveller said:


> sallytrafic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps it wasn't getting a charge as it wasn't referenced to the alternator but the radio, canbus, alarm, or other system discharged it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes - I think it more likely that the alternator wasn't charging at all, but nothing to do with the gearbox earthing, and the battery simply went flat - or that co-incidentally to the clutch problem the battery simply went 'duff' and needed to be repkaced - which is more likely.
Click to expand...

The alternator wouldn't be charging without an earth return, try as it might


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## time-traveller

sallytrafic said:


> time-traveller said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sallytrafic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps it wasn't getting a charge as it wasn't referenced to the alternator but the radio, canbus, alarm, or other system discharged it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes - I think it more likely that the alternator wasn't charging at all, but nothing to do with the gearbox earthing, and the battery simply went flat - or that co-incidentally to the clutch problem the battery simply went 'duff' and needed to be repkaced - which is more likely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The alternator wouldn't be charging without an earth return, try as it might
Click to expand...


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## time-traveller

sallytrafic said:


> time-traveller said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sallytrafic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps it wasn't getting a charge as it wasn't referenced to the alternator but the radio, canbus, alarm, or other system discharged it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes - I think it more likely that the alternator wasn't charging at all, but nothing to do with the gearbox earthing, and the battery simply went flat - or that co-incidentally to the clutch problem the battery simply went 'duff' and needed to be repkaced - which is more likely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The alternator wouldn't be charging without an earth return, try as it might
Click to expand...

Quite right - but what's that got to do with the gearbox earthing strap?
And won't the alternator itself be earthed through its own casing to the engine block?


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## grumpyman

Cannot answer that myself all as I know is the Auto Electrician kept muttering that the Battery had discharged itself and and once he checked all the earths we managed to start it with 2 vehicles and Jump Leads. I know that when I went into the French Garage I found the Radio turned on in the vehicle and for how long this had been I do not know. Obviously it would still start then but it then was not re charging.


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## Stanner

time-traveller said:


> sallytrafic said:
> 
> 
> 
> The alternator wouldn't be charging without an earth return, try as it might
> 
> 
> 
> Quite right - but what's that got to do with the gearbox earthing strap?
> And won't the alternator itself be earthed through its own casing to the engine block?
Click to expand...

QED...... if there is no earthing strap betwixt engine block/gearbox and body, the earth connection betwixt alternator and battery is at best poor and at worst non-existant as most engine mounts are rubber and thus a rather good insulators.


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## emmbeedee

But if there was no earth strap connected how on earth did it manage to start after the gearbox repair? The starter motor takes hundreds of amps & thus requires a bigger earth path than the alternator, which is typically 60 - 90 amps. Surely if there was a good enough earth for the starter there must have been a good enough earth for the charging current.


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## Stanner

emmbeedee said:


> But if there was no earth strap connected how on earth did it manage to start after the gearbox repair? The starter motor takes hundreds of amps & thus requires a bigger earth path than the alternator, which is typically 60 - 90 amps. Surely if there was a good enough earth for the starter there must have been a good enough earth for the charging current.


Exactly, this is where the story is breaking down. 
One answer could be that they had to jump start it and they connected the earth clamp direct to the engine block (as you should) it would then start perfectly and continue to run OK on the residual poor earthing between block and chassis - until - it came to be started again.

I forgot to reconnect the earth cable on a Saab after an engine swap and when I tried to start it managed to get the throttle cable glowing red.


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## grumpyman

emmbeedee said:


> But if there was no earth strap connected how on earth did it manage to start after the gearbox repair? The starter motor takes hundreds of amps & thus requires a bigger earth path than the alternator, which is typically 60 - 90 amps. Surely if there was a good enough earth for the starter there must have been a good enough earth for the charging current.


The Earth leads were connected but not secure enough, once he had refitted them the Alternator showed power to the Battery but in his words your battery is now shot.I had noticed on our return journey the trip recorder zeroed which he suggests would have been part of the shorting. ? :roll:


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## grumpyman

Stanner said:


> emmbeedee said:
> 
> 
> 
> But if there was no earth strap connected how on earth did it manage to start after the gearbox repair? The starter motor takes hundreds of amps & thus requires a bigger earth path than the alternator, which is typically 60 - 90 amps. Surely if there was a good enough earth for the starter there must have been a good enough earth for the charging current.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, this is where the story is breaking down.
> One answer could be that they had to jump start it and they connected the earth clamp direct to the engine block (as you should) it would then start perfectly and continue to run OK on the residual poor earthing between block and chassis - until - it came to be started again.
> 
> I forgot to reconnect the earth cable on a Saab after an engine swap and when I tried to start it managed to get the throttle cable glowing red.
Click to expand...

Yes the Auto Electrician did connect the Earth jump lead to the engine block as you say as I also tried but the Battery was dead.


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## TR5

Going back to the original posts, I had exactly the same problem, clutch pedal dropping to the floor when touched, and had to lift it with my foot underneath and press down sharply to change gear.

It eventually gave up after a few days (while in france) and I had to have both the master and the slave cylinders replaced.

The master had only been replaced (reported leaking on the MOT) 10 months earlier.

I have now been told by the garage that fitted the first master cylinder, that the clutch is slipping? and it will cost in excess of £1250 for a new clutch!!!


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## amydan

grumpyman said:


> Was not to sure under which section I should have placed this but sure a Mod. will check.
> Well Tuesday evening set off from home down to Dover for our long awaited break. Onto the P&O Ferry at 5am having stopped for a few hours at Canterbury Park and Ride.
> By 1pm on the Wednesday turned onto the A13 at Rouen changed gear clutch pedal went flat to the floor, made it to a emergency lane a few yards away. Checked around but just knew the clutch had gone (13,000 miles 3 years 3 month old).
> Rang Caravan Guard Assistance to be informed that due to French Laws if you breakdown on any Motorway only their Emergency Assistance is allowed to attend. Rang 17 and after 45 minutes Low Loader arrives and we are taken to Garage DE LA Chouque which obviously was the drivers own Garage.
> Immediately got onto Caravan Guard as my French is limited and I had been told by Caravan Guard my vehicle would be taken to a Peugeot Garage. (Bear in mind no Peugeot dealers have workshops big enough for Motorhomes)
> 
> A few conversations then took place between Caravan Guard and the owner which I will not go into yet as I am in discussion with them over a possible dispute which they may yet resolve. Anyway it is agreed this garage will carry out the repairs which obviously was a new clutch, then the first shock My vehicle would not be ready until the following Monday. (It is now Wednesday afternoon) Why so long this is a French vehicle.?
> 
> Anyway we need to turn everything off and so hand over the contents of our Fridge to the Mechanics stuff some items in bags and are picked up by a lovely French Lady Caravan Guard having organised accommodation.
> Our only conciliation is that this area has seen nor rain for the past 3 months and is lovely and warm.
> Monday comes and we are told Van will not be ready until Tuesday morning. Tuesday comes it will be ready Tuesday afternoon then Tuesday night. Then Wednesday morning, then Wednesday night. Finally Wednesday afternoon I manage to get a lift to the garage as we are some 5 miles away.Insist on seeing my Van which is parked up Bonnet down no work taking place. Staff very sheepish and tell me it needs a test drive come back at 5.30 as we told your Insurance. I inform them I will sit and wait 5 minutes late van drives out of garage 1 minute test drive I am told it is ready. I am then presented with a bill for over 1100 Euro 8O and i know if I do not pay it I don't get the van and we had had enough by now. Same job in UK Peugeot dealer 900 Euro. Obviously I have been ripped off and am attempting to do something about it. I post this for other reasons though.
> 1. I insisted on having the old clutch back both plates burnt.
> 2. My vehicle a Peugeot 2.2 HDI 2006 reg had developed a slight judder.
> 3. Be careful if you break down on a French Motorway
> 
> Oh and also we received two telephone calls whilst stuck there around the deaths of two close friends and so just wanted to get home. Had paid £68 with P&O return. On getting to Calais explained the situation and was told pay another £61 just to get home that day.
> On the return journey passed French Farmers demonstrating and one thought it fun to punch the side of our van whilst stood with a French Police Officer who just laughed. :evil:
> The elderly French people we stopped with were lovely and live in a large house with car parking and would love to have Motorhomes stop over night for a moderate charge which I will post the details later. :wink:


I have a 2008 peugeot boxer 2.2 broke down 3 times in France twice in England all electrical problems first breakdown 700 miles from new. The customer service is rubbish good job the AA breakdown service is better than peugeot. I now think I have got the judder problem in reverse uphills only done 10,000 miles.


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## wakk44

TR5 said:


> I have now been told by the garage that fitted the first master cylinder, that the clutch is slipping? and it will cost in excess of £1250 for a new clutch!!!


That seems an awful lot for a clutch replacement-what engine is it?


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## TR5

It's a 2005 2.8hdi Boxer.


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## TR5

Personally, I have not found anything wrong with the clutch since he master and slave cylinders were changed - in my view it is not slipping.

However, with it in mind tat they may be right, I have been doing some investigating into costs of replacing the clutch, and have had a wide variety of quotes.

Main Dealers - circa £1250 using Peugeot parts.

Commercial vehicle repairers - non dealership - £650 - £850 using OEM parts. Using Peugeot parts + £100

Clutch Centres £ 640 using OEM parts

GRGB Ltd (Gloucester Road Gearboxes Ltd) £ 465
(Based in Bristol - anybody had any dealings with this company or know of thier work?)

Anyone else had a clutch in a 2.8hdi Boxer 2?


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## DTPCHEMICALS

For the last 24 years I have averaged 40k miles pa in vans.
I have never had to have a clutch replaced at all in 42 years of driving.
Last van citroen dispatch had over 150k miles 5 years old an d had only had servicing and tyres. On original exhaust and battery
Does that mean I am due for one?

Dave p


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## TR5

Hi Dave

Nor have I. i have run Sprinter's, the previous series Merc's, VWLT35's, Sherpa's (everything else goes wrong with these, but not clutches), Toyota Hiace's, the list goes on.

I have just fitted a new clutch to my TR5 - 105,000miles, and that is only because the friction plate disintigrated due to poor quality manufacture.

As there are others with clutch failures at low mileage, there must be an inherent problem, and it is not just on the X250's.

Michael


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