# 12x tables: WHY?



## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

The latest Government idea in education is for ALL 11y olds to learn their 12x tables. :roll: 

As a boy I found them very useful for converting between inches and feet or shillings and pence, but WHY would anyone use them now? Or is it a plan for a brave new future where we return to "British values" (but trade with no-one)?

How many 11y olds are more than 6" (oops - 15cm) from their smart phone, complete with calculator function? IF they need to know 9 x 12 surely it would be better to get them to use modern technology and use their 10x table to realise that the answer must be more than 90 (9x10) but less than 120 (12x10).

And who checks answers anyway? Last week HMRC sent a £4.7Bn tax bill to an OAP (OK, he MIGHT have owed that much, but checking first could have saved time, worry and embarrassment). :lol: 

Gordon


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Very useful if they want to buy a dozen eggs or bread rolls. I used to love those mental arithmetic tests with questions such as 'How much are 12 eggs if they are a penny farthing each' ect.


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## daffodil (Aug 7, 2014)

Great post by the way 

The problem is we are NOT keeping up with Technology 

What with Google, You tube ,wiki ,all you need to do is show the youngsters ,

HOW TO LOOK for the answers, not what the answers are 

The Internet the most comphrensive and largeat fact machine ever 

Just show them How,not WHY, 

In truth ,schools as we know them are so far out of kilter with modern life :wink:


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

Focus groups say the older (and potential UKIP voter) still thinks in imperial. DC, to his eternal shame in my eyes, with a straight face told Evan Davis in an interview the other month that he thought that school children should use imperial measurement exclusively for their first years of school.

As I said it appeals to the popular reactionary vote. A vote that the Tories are tusselling UKIP for. Bugger making sense, much more about winning the election. Someone ought to tell them that the modern yoof carry on their person more computing power than they had in the whole world when they were in school learning their 12 times tables :lol: 

Dick


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## Zebedee (Oct 3, 2007)

Show me a MHF member who doesn't think in mpg!! 

Litres per kilometre means nothing to me, nor to 99% of the population of this country!

It's a pity the rulers at the time didn't have the guts to go completely decimal when they had the chance. It's all a bit piecemeal now, and seems unlikely ever to complete the transformation.

Must go - I need a couple of metres of 4" x 2" to finish building a bird table.

Dave :roll:


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## pneumatician (May 1, 2005)

Just an understanding and appreciation of the basics.
We started every school day with either a spelling or Arithmetic test.
Didnt seem to do me much harm and it does mean I can usually spot when one of my calculators or similar devices has failed or I have erred with a digit.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> Zebedee said:
> 
> 
> > Litres per kilometre means nothing to me, nor to 99% of the population of this country!
> ...


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## Lesleykh (Apr 13, 2009)

Why not?

Anything that gets them mentally agile is good in my book.

Lesley


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Q/ If I have a bean, how many beans do I have

A/ A bean



Q/ If I add an extra bean how many beans do I have

A/ More beans


QED  

tony


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## p-c (Oct 27, 2007)

Hi
I tend to agree with using decimal. The problem is that students are arriving into year 7 unable to do basic times tables or mental arithmatic. We all need this to check things like how much we are spending and if we are getting the right change.
Re internet searches, students are encouraged to use the internet. The problem is they try to copy and paste large amounts of information without reading or understanding it. That is not learning.
Re use of computers etc. In many cases their computer skills are actually quite poor, unless it is a game of course.
Regards
p-c


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Having worked with a good number of young quantity surveyors who grew up in the age of the calculator I can tell you that generally that generation simply don't do mental calculations.

Not being of that generation I always knew roughly what the result of any calculation ought to be and therefore could spot obvious errors at a glance, as could any QS of my generation. The young ones thought this was some kind of magical power.

The problem was that because they had no sort of mental yardstick they just took it for granted that what ever answers the calculator or computer gave were always right. They would only notice an error if it was so gross as to be ridiculous. That often resulted in their submitting accounts which were incorrect and riddled with basic errors easily spotted by older people but which the young ones simply could not see. Their only way of finding an error was to check every value and every calculation. It made them inaccurate and slow at their jobs.

Doubtless anyone working with numbers in any job would suffer the same handicap if they weren't capable of doing some simple mental calculations.

That makes knowing tables worthwhile.

I told a waitress to add a 10% tip to our bill in a restaurant recently and she had to go and get her calculator to work it out.

I bought some petrol and a gas cylinder here in Spain a few days ago. A gas cylinder is €15.50 and the petrol was €19.50. The young guy had to add the two on his phone. I told him the answer as he was doing it and he was simply amazed that I could do that in my head.

Of course they need to know the basics otherwise we will be followed by a generation of incompetents, Alan.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Sadly, the reason WHY children have NOT learned their tables and have resorted to their mobile phones and calculators is a direct result of previous Government policies to "prepare Britain for the future".......

I was teaching when calculators were introduced to schools AGAINST the wishes of the maths teachers and science teachers because it removed the ability to approximate - if they punched in a figure that was 1000 times out they were not aware of it and assumed the calculator was right....

That passed through even to the medical profession where Doctors made simple mistakes in calculating the dose of drugs and made the same elementary error with a decimal place or with approximation, with sometimes fatal results.

It is difficult to "prepare for the future" by going backwards, but that is the wish - perhaps because it sounds good as a sound byte.......

Note the policy is being launched but no resources to assist, the school time is already crammed full of stuff which is junk - even at GCSE and A Level as a direct result of Government requirements - Governments are of course outstanding scientists and realise why it is important that 40% of an *A level science exam* comes from *"How Science Works"* - or why shampoo adverts cannot be trusted - and that is the truth direct from the specification (syllabus renamed as required by a previous Government), 40% comes from the ability to look at a table of results and use them to plot a graph..... and 20% *YES 20% ONLY* comes from actual A Level knowledge.........

That is a direct result of Governmental interference - and it dates back over the past 40+ years.........

Which roughly corresponds to how long the standards in schools have declined.....

I wonder if there is any causal link that might be suggested?

So I suspect the ability to count to 12, or multiples thereof will not last long as it does not link to the metric system, and few things apart from eggs, are sold in dozens........

and when did you last see things sold as a gross ?

Dave


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## bob-in-dav (Aug 11, 2013)

Maybe it's a prediction or anticipation of stronger trade ties with those idiots across the Atlantic who never did go metric. :lol:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I saw it all the time with my staff. If we needed to put 100mm of concrete into a foundation 5m wide x 5m long they would have to go and find or borrow a calculator to do the calculation. It was staggering and they couldn't understand why it annoyed me, nor when I explained how simple it was could they understand what I was telling them.

If they couldn't find a calculator they would ring the office and have another numpty there do it for them on their calculator.

The difference between a numpty and a good guy was that the good guys had the sense to carry credit card sized calculators. It wasn't stupidity, it was just a skill they had never learned, Alan.


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## HermanHymer (Dec 5, 2008)

Maybe in the future quilting will be compulsory! Quilting is done in inches and a 6" or 12" component is pretty standard and being able to multiply x 12 is quite useful!

Having been educated "more than 40 years ago my education was of the old type" and has given me an edge in this endeavour, more so than some of the younger practitioners.

Second point - we've all been at the sharp end of the education system that teaches learners (adult and youth) how to point and click and read off an answer, not having the faintest clue of what they are saying. (Every bank and call centre employs thousands of them.) 

To everyone's frustration they are only taught the 80% most common questions that are easy to answer, never the unusual, complicated 20% when things have not gone to plan. That turns intelligent, capable brains into robotic idiots and that can't be satisfying or fun.


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## daffodil (Aug 7, 2014)

Zebedee said:


> Show me a MHF member who doesn't think in mpg!!
> 
> Litres per kilometre means nothing to me, nor to 99% of the population of this country!
> 
> ...


I still convert from litres to galls and then kilometers to miles

WHY ???? I have lived here for nearly 12 years :lol: :lol:

OLD VHABITS ARE HARD TO BREAK :wink:


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

Remember Slide Rulers. I do, they worked well!

http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/slide_rule.html

https://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type=B111GB691D20130729&p=slide+rulers+calculators

and before that beads and fingers and toes :lol:


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

As did log tables and "the bones" the use of each being regarded as an essential skill by those brought up on them.

Anyone for their return? Enable you to do complicated calculations when the electricity runs out :lol: 

Dick


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## Sprinta (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm also old school maths and actually relish mental calulations, yes we have gone decimal but that doesn't preclude the ability to actually do other sums - and remember it hasn't done Rachel Riley any harm 8)


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

GEMMY said:


> Q/ If I have a bean, how many beans do I have
> 
> A/ A bean
> 
> ...


Tony

Sorry, your second answer is wrong.

It should be one more bean; if you had 'more beans' (plural) than one you would have 3 or more.   

Geoff


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## Hawcara (Jun 1, 2009)

I used to be a teacher and when I enrolled on the teacher training (post grad 1 year course) I mentioned learning tables by rote. The 'Lecturer' said that if he had known that was my attitude to teaching then he would not have invited me onto the course.

Oddly enough, last summer my wife and I visited an ice cream emporium. We bought 2 cornets at the extortinate price if £1.85 each. The girl who said she was in a gap year, said she would need a calculator to work it out. We told her it was £3.70. She stil wanted to get the calculator when we presented her with a £10.00 note.
She was not in the least embarrassed that she could not do the sum.

I could also rant on about the spellings advertising the aforementioned ice cream flavours.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Hawcara said:


> I could also rant on about the spellings advertising the aforementioned ice cream flavours.


I bet she could not have spelt 'aforementioned' either  :lol:


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## richardjames (Feb 1, 2006)

H1-GBV said:


> The latest Government idea in education is for ALL 11y olds to learn their 12x tables. :roll:
> 
> As a boy I found them very useful for converting between inches and feet or shillings and pence, but WHY would anyone use them now? Or is it a plan for a brave new future where we return to "British values" (but trade with no-one)?
> 
> ...


For a start it exercises the brain, 11 year olds should not have phones in the classroom which are useless when the battery is down. I frequently use tables in my workplace - it does not hurt to know your tables!!!
In my opinion the latest ideas out of the education department, even though they are not new, it's getting back to basics especially with the grammar and spelling!!! The number of news readers that do not know how to speak correctly is appalling e g 'different to' should be, grammatically speaking, different from is one example. English has of late been 'dumbed down' I am glad that they are starting to up the standards. I am speaking from 30 years experience in education and am ashamed at the lowering of standards - rant over!


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

I was of the cohort that learnt tables by heart and in fact took part in competitions to memorise well above 12. Today I could with a deal of difficulty recall only chunks of them even though most of my working life has involved basic maths, but for the last 30 years I have pretty well exclusively used spreadsheets. Why can’t I reel tables off like I used to? I think it is because it is so long since I have had to rely or even use them. Yes I do estimation to check my answers but you only need a skeleton knowledge (mainly based on the decimal system) for that. 

Quite honestly how many of you could recite without hesitate say the 7 or 9 times table now and more importantly when did you have need for it?

I take the point about mental exercise and agility, but are tables any different from learning poetry by rote these day when it comes to that?

Dick


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

> I take the point about mental exercise and agility, but are tables any different from learning poetry by rote these day when it comes to that?
> 
> Dick


Yes they are different Dick. Not learning poetry by rote doesn't leave people short of a basic, everyday skill, Alan.


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

erneboy said:


> > I take the point about mental exercise and agility, but are tables any different from learning poetry by rote these day when it comes to that?
> >
> > Dick
> 
> ...


*************

Much better for their soul though Alan :lol:

Dick


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I guess they should be made to do both then. Though I did have to learn poetry by rote and hate it as a result. Wasn't keen on learning tables then either but at least they have been useful, Alan.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

I expect the Darts game of '501' will die out unless the marker has a calculator as well as a piece of chalk.  

It is the opposite in the Far East. my Hotel Bills used to be computerised and printed out. The young cashier then used to check the figures with an Abacus. Like someone said, old habits die hard.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

> I guess they should be made to do both then. Though I did have to learn poetry by rote and hate it as a result. Wasn't keen on learning tables then either but at least they have been useful, Alan.


Though as a result of having had to learn the poetry I do know at least know that if I had a a ship I would need a star to steer her by and that the boy stood on the burning deck, Alan.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

erneboy said:


> > I guess they should be made to do both then. Though I did have to learn poetry by rote and hate it as a result. Wasn't keen on learning tables then either but at least they have been useful, Alan.
> 
> 
> Though as a result of having had to learn the poetry I do know at least know that if I had a a ship I would need a star to steer her by and that the boy stood on the burning deck, Alan.


Did the boy have anything in his pockets Alan? :wink:


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

That wasn't mentioned in the version I learned Jim. Maybe the one you know is better and actually worth having learned?


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## pneumatician (May 1, 2005)

When I worked in the drawing office we used slide rules, log tables etc quite a lot. Our chief draughtsman (ex aeronautical) would peer over your shoulder when using a slide rule then insist the figures were checked.

I still use the slide rule occasionally just for fun. Having spent most of my life working for a Swedish company it doesn't bother me whether I use Imperial or Metric. Occasionally still using American drawings I on occasion need the "Old system.


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

erneboy said:


> > I guess they should be made to do both then. Though I did have to learn poetry by rote and hate it as a result. Wasn't keen on learning tables then either but at least they have been useful, Alan.
> 
> 
> Though as a result of having had to learn the poetry I do know at least know that if I had a a ship I would need a star to steer her by and that the boy stood on the burning deck, Alan.


****************

Could you get up and find the Isle of Innisfree though Alan? 

Dick


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Unfortunately I could Dick, and the bloody Sally Gardens.

"Today we are going to talk about yeats" the teacher said. "Oh, that's handy" I thought. "I wouldn't know a yeat if I tripped over one."


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## tony50 (Oct 16, 2007)

I think learning the 2 times table up to the 12 times table from a young age is a good idea even if it is drummed in it was taught like that in my day, I'm still here does not seem to have a adverse effect !in my 20's I got a job as a brewery Fleet Engineer just when calculators became popular I got one and within a very short time mental calculations became a struggle. Education should in my view start with these basics, the same with reading from these are the starting building blocks education of our young who after all will run the country. Imperial or metric I find both helpful. the USA does alright on miles and USA gallons , remember when Honda said if we don't join Euro it will have a effect on their investment in the UK . 
Tony A


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## 113016 (Jun 5, 2008)

I think a lot of this depends on what you liked as a child.
I hated school and I couldn't spell to save my life, strange I now can, OK not brilliant, but better than most youngsters.
Probably because as I got older, I wanted to learn.
Regarding maths, I was always pretty good  At school, it was between another Lad and I, who would be top of the class  But I enjoyed maths, and that was most probably why 8) 
I wonder if too much pressure is now put on Kids to want to be this that or the other when they grow up, instead of letting them enjoy been Kids  
For myself, the tables were easy, and I still know them and can mentally calculate many sums, I got to know quite a few mental short cuts, learning calculations in different stages and then adding them together to get the end answer. Still sometimes quicker than a calculator.
However, your or my mind does get lazy and I know sometimes, I also rely on a calculator, when I know I shouldn't
Just the same as spell check :lol:


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## Al42 (Aug 4, 2011)

When I was taught to use a slide rule in the 60's it was drummed into me that a rough 'order of' calculation had to be done, especially on long complicated calculations. As others have said a misplaced decimal point can be catastrophic in some situations.

In the seventies, for a short while, I was a Maths teacher in a comprehensive and we were using a system called SMP....School Maths Project. The kids called it the simple maths project, it was far from simple......number bases to kids that struggled in base10. I did A levels in maths and further maths and it wasn't until this point that I really thought about *how*_ things worked, BTW I didn't do maths degree.

Perhaps this was because I had been taught by 'rote' and accepted things as they were taught up to quite a high level. My opinion is that rote learning is good for the basics but some measure of the theory should be introduced as the pupils progress. What the educational theorists at the time seemed to forget is that many children would never understand the theory and rote learning was the only way they would have a chance of basic numeracy._


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

erneboy said:


> Unfortunately I could Dick, and the bloody Sally Gardens.
> 
> "Today we are going to talk about yeats" the teacher said. "Oh, that's handy" I thought. "I wouldn't know a yeat if I tripped over one."


++++++++++++++++++++++++

We were told the same joke about a Keat! Had to sit an old crackly 78 by the man himself when it came to Innisfree.

Dick


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

Back on topic the generation before us (me?) had their own versions of the calculator and didn't as far as I know use mental arthmitic in everyday life anymore than we do today.

In the 50s my father negociationing with dealers on the farm would resort to what was called a ready reckoner as did the dealers. 347 @ 1s 6d happney. They would look it up each in their own. I can remember the covers now a big prominent 2s 6d the price of them.

When I first went on the tools the old boy carpenters would not use mental arithtimic. They had a wonderful thing called a roofing square that as far I was concerned could do every thing that the modern calculator can do in skilled hands.

I' ve no idea where the idea that until 1960 we worked everything out in our head came from :lol: 

Dick


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Glandwr said:


> Back on topic the generation before us (me?) had their own versions of the calculator and didn't as far as I know use mental arthmitic in everyday life anymore than we do today.
> 
> In the 50s my father negociationing with dealers on the farm would resort to what was called a ready reckoner as did the dealers. 347 @ 1s 6d happney. They would look it up each in their own. I can remember the covers now a big prominent 2s 6d the price of them.
> 
> ...


Dick, I depended upon my Zeus book at work. Any Engineer will know it but it was a small booklet that gave valuable information on a multitude of things like tapping size drills, threads per inch of ALL thread types and also information for Metric threads and pitches etc. My copy is very old, is dog eared and scruffy but still resides in my toolbox in the garage at home.

Many common things can be stored in the brain but a reference book is essential.


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

As the OP AND a secondary science & maths teacher for over 40y, I have NO problem with pupils learning facts and getting an opportunity to practice skills. Setting them in a real world situation provides an incentive to use them and become proficient. Primary pupils are already expected to learn tables upto x10 and my query is WHY x12?



tony50 said:


> I think learning the 2 times table up to the 12 times table from a young age is a good idea even if it is drummed in it was taught like that in my day, I'm still here does not seem to have a adverse effect !
> Tony A


And that is part of the problem: people think "I did that and it did me no harm" but they fail to accept that the world has moved on. I spent hours at Olevel learning how to do logs (and antilogs) then hours at Alevel using slide rules: where are they now? My Dad refused to give some of my pupils an apprenticeship because they couldn't tell him how many holes with 6" centres could be drilled in a yard-long bar: I told him he should have asked about 10cm centres in a metre bar.

The world moves on: our children are our future. Every week there are demands for schools to do "more": swimming lessons and first aid, financial awareness, cooking and healthy eating, democratic processes, etc.

PS DC recently stated that he wanted all children to have the same education that he had, but plans to expand Eton to take 10million pupils have been rejected  .

PPS WHY? The answer is, as appreciated by many, it is a politically-motivated sound bite, with no value to the people who matter.


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

"plans to expand Eton to take 10million pupils have been rejected Surprised "

===============================================

Not surprised, need a school the size of London :lol: 

tony


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

It seems then that I'm wrong and a bit of an oddball. i've always had and used the ability to approximate. There aren't many of us around, it would seem that most always have and always will rely on some device to do even simple calculations. Fair enough. I'll continue to regard them as unfortunate.

Just so we are clear I wasn't for one moment suggesting that I could always get the exact answer or that I could do every calculation in my head, Alan.


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

When I started work, Monday to Friday I was a Qs, Saturday I was a 'settler ' at a bookies, calculators hadn't been invented, If I worked out the bets incorrectly I either got it in the neck from the punters or the boss. 8O 

Interesting when decimal coinage came in :lol: 

tony


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

> When I started work, Monday to Friday I was a Qs, Saturday I was a 'settler ' at a bookies, calculators hadn't been invented, If I worked out the bets incorrectly I either got it in the neck from the punters or the boss. 8O
> 
> Interesting when decimal coinage came in :lol:
> 
> tony


A pair of oddballs then Tony, you and me, Alan.


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

Eton came out badly in the latest School performance figures. :? 

They close down failing Schools don't they?


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## aldra (Jul 2, 2009)

No surprise there then

It's money and connections, not brains that gets you a place there

Aldra


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

747

Read the report, your lop sided retort does you no favours

Any bluddy school that doesn't set GCSE s as an exam is BOUND to be bluddy bottom

Talking out of your plastic ******* again


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

GEMMY said:


> 747
> 
> Read the report, your lop sided retort does you no favours
> 
> ...


As reported on the TV News Channels the other day (note the plural of channel).

At least my arsehole is in the place nature intended and not just under my nose. :wink:


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Read PROPER reports before you comment or as ususual will appear a numpty following "some" extraneous party line :roll:


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

GEMMY said:


> Read PROPER reports before you comment or as ususual will appear a numpty following "some" extraneous party line :roll:


Do you mean Daily Mail reports (your Bible)? :lol:


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## GEMMY (Jun 19, 2006)

Stick to polishing jnrs gold braid and reminisce


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## pneumatician (May 1, 2005)

Eton came out badly in the latest School performance figures. Confused 

They close down failing Schools don't they? Very Happy


No worries there then as they tend to end up as Politicians don't they.

Still use my Zeus book dont think its the one I paid 2/6d for though.
I also refer to my copy of "Machinerys Handbook from time to time.

Who amongst us would go gladly into that good night ?

Also would we not like the gifty to see ourselves as others see us, perhaps not.


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## mistycat (Jan 28, 2014)

At work we use plenty of, 1/2" 3/4" and 1" Galv pipe or tube which ever takes your fancy, but guess how we order it ????

Yep by the metre,
Misty


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## SNandJA (Aug 22, 2008)

Learning the 11 times table shouldn't prove too tricky but why up to 12 still? You could see it before the days of metrication and decimalisation which we've never really fully adopted. Pints still around
In the old days 12 times table was useful because we used to have a yard not a metre! For buildings and fittings it was a useful unit because 36 inches has more factors than 100 cm So you could have 4 x 9" bricks to fit in the yard, 2x18" blocks 3x12" etc. (And why 4x3 old measurement timber was a standard) Then of course you needed 12s it for old money too. Decimal systems don't give much opportunity to explain different base numbers. Given that in theory we should be measuring everything in metric then it would make more sense to put more emphasis on a different base. In the modern age binary springs to mind as a more useful system to emphasise along with Tables learnt to 10!

Still never mind eh Nigel will get us back on track....

I have a LHD van with kilometres and litres and I offer myself as one who does think km to the litre.


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## Al42 (Aug 4, 2011)

SNandJA said:


> Learning the 11 times table shouldn't prove too tricky but why up to 12 still? You could see it before the days of metrication and decimalisation which we've never really fully adopted. Pints still around
> In the old days 12 times table was useful because we used to have a yard not a metre! For buildings and fittings it was a useful unit because 36 inches has more factors than 100 cm So you could have 4 x 9" bricks to fit in the yard, 2x18" blocks 3x12" etc. (And why 4x3 old measurement timber was a standard) Then of course you needed 12s it for old money too. Decimal systems don't give much opportunity to explain different base numbers. Given that in theory we should be measuring everything in metric then it would make more sense to put more emphasis on a different base. In the modern age binary springs to mind as a more useful system to emphasise along with Tables learnt to 10!
> 
> Still never mind eh Nigel will get us back on track....
> ...


I think for us oldies it is very difficult to start using these new fangled units, after all the metrication process in the UK only started in 1963 

The problem is in comparing the measurement with physical experience eg what temperature is cold,warm, hot etc..

I now think in Celcius and kilograms but find measures such as mpg and lb/sq.ins difficult to eradicate and have to convert to make comparisons.I would compare it to learning a second language after many years using only one, far from impossible but slow for some of us.

Incidentally the standard for fuel consumption in metric land is litres/100km and to convert from l/100km into mpg then divide 282.3 by the mpg figure.

In our wisdom in the UK the metric system has been introduced in a haphazard way with many strange decisions eg half inch pipe sizes in the UK were converted to 15mm. Pipe sizes available on the continent are 14 &16 mm so no real point in doing it as converters are still necessary if connecting one to the other.


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## Glandwr (Jun 12, 2006)

Yet the old 3/4 copper pipe WAS changed and we needed adaptors to connect to pre 70s plumbing here!

Dick


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## Al42 (Aug 4, 2011)

Glandwr said:


> Yet the old 3/4 copper pipe WAS changed and we needed adaptors to connect to pre 70s plumbing here!
> 
> Dick


I suspect that you know far more about pipe sizes and many other things than I(not being ironic  )

The only reason I know about UK 15mm pipe and continental 14 & 16 mm is that we have a UK built static van in France and finding 15mm fittings is difficult though some are available.


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