# Replying to the French Aires break in



## bar (Aug 6, 2005)

Have read your replies, thanks. with regard to the break in, we saw the evidence within 4 hours of happening. Agree that there is no evidence of gas, however the chap had trouble waking his wife despite the alarm ( agree it could have been tiredness. However the most worrying aspect was that two individuals tried to block their exeit from the aires by standing in front of the van waving them down. IWe have the couples·name and address for when we retun home. We have asked them to join MHF then you can question them first hand. Think they are back end of Oct.
The best place for information for those seeking it would probably be to contact the Gendarmes at Biarritz who will be able to tell you the local situation.¨


Meanwhile we are in Barco de Avila (mid Spain) enroute Portugal.

Cheers Barry & Dell


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

I look forward to hearing the account from the victims. 
Having following with great interest the threads on gas attacks, the 'expert' opinion and the 'urban myth' theories I am still not convinced either way. 
I have my own theory that it's Ether being used, my reasons are as follows. 

Ether is cheap and easily obtained 

It can be stored in a bottle or jar as a liquid 

It is an excellent anesthetic, needing little to knock out. 

It could be administered by a cloth held over a sleeping person or 
poured though a window or vent 

It is however highly flammable which is the argument people use to dismiss it as an agent. I'm not convinced. 

a) a gas fridge could easily be extinguished from outside the van before Ether was introduced. 
b) If it was administered by cloth there would be little or no risk. 


OK , Im sitting back and waiting to be shot down in flames...


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

Ether does have a very strong smell which would linger for a while, especially if some got spilled or it was poured through a window . It also tends to make people very sick and leave them feeling very rough -headache etc afterwards.
It is also a solvent so would leave at least marks on any plastic it spilt on -or acrylic windows.

G


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

Valid points Grizzly, but not evidence of it not being used , we need more 'first hand' accounts from alleged victims. 

Interestingly I was reading about 'gas attacks' on overnight trains in southern and eastern europe.. people being knocked out and robbed in railway compartments and being advised how to secure the door against this.. I just feel there is too many reports for them all to be myths. 

I await this couples report with interest and hopefully shed some light on it.


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## 89213 (May 16, 2005)

I've always thought that it wouldn't need that much gas to put an already sleeping person into an deeper sleep, and after all that's all they need to do.
I can vouch for a robbery in the same area, one of our lorry drivers was held up and robbed at gunpoint in an aire, and that was while he had the cab jacked up and was working on the engine, all in daylight.
John.


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Ether is a good anesthetic needing little to knock you out but a bit more and it will kill you.

Stick a cloth over someones face? you have to break in first, next while you hold the cloth over their mouths they must not wake up, what if their is two of them? do you do one then the other? or both together. suppose there in the over cab bed? you would have to climb up to get to them.

Pour through a window, how would you know how much to pour to knock them out and not kill them?

Gas fridge should be sealed at the rear from the inside of the van to prevent fumes being blown in by the wind, so their would be no danger from the burner, this is the reason that gas cannot be introduced via the fridge vents.

I would think there would be a tremendous risk to administer by cloth.

Why bother, just smash the door in grab what you can and do a runner

Olley


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## Brambles (May 12, 2005)

and presumably the crooks wear fullbreathing gear or maybe hold their breath for 5 minutes while they rob you. I find it hard to believe this talk of gas attacks and the debate is still going on. The experts say it cannot be done without deaths, commonsense prevails and all you are doing by carrying on discussing is putting fear into the minds of the unknowledgeable and newcomers to the world of camping - Oh and selling more narcotic gas alarms.


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi Scotjimland,

no, no flames, I leave that to the crooks with the ether :wink: Just some rationales:

"Ether is cheap and easily obtained"
"It can be stored in a bottle or jar as a liquid"
Yes, these two are true.

"It is an excellent anesthetic...."
*No, it is not!* In fact it is one of the nastiest anesthetics around, and that is why it is (at least standalone) almost not used anymore in medicine. Problems are:
1. You need a very high concentration of ether vapour in the lung to get an anesthetic effect, that is why the only possible application for a crook would be via a cloth in front of the mouth. For "filling up" a motorhome from the outside you would need hundreds of litres of liquid ether to achieve any effect.
2. If administered in too low concentration it has an excitatory effect rather than narcotic. So it would act as a "wake-up gas" instead of a "knock-out gas"
3. The threshold between narcotic and lethal concentration is extremely small, so constant monitoring by an experienced anesthesist would be needed.
4. The anesthetic effect vanishes almost at an instant once you stop administering it. So it would have to be administered all the time throughout the burglary.

"It could be administered by a cloth held over a sleeping person or
poured though a window or vent"
Application via cloth would be the only practical way. However then one of the burglars would have to act as an "anesthesist" and constantly monitor the victims. Administering it through window or vent would make it extremely difficult to achieve narcotic concentrations and leave clearly visible traces (e.g. holes in foam mattresses etc.).

"It is however highly flammable..."
Yes, it is _extremely flammable_! And a combustible concentration is already achieved at about 1.5%, while you need more than 50% for a narcotic effect. And once it is ignited it is almost like Napalm, putting everything on fire that gets in it's way and leaving severe skin burns behind. Only that it burns or explodes much faster.

In practice this would mean:
To achieve a narcotic concentration of ether in an average motorhome (6 metres lenght) on the level of the overcab bed by administering from the outside the crooks would:
- need several hundred litres of liquid ether
- administer them within minutes
- certainly kill all people sleeping on lower levels than the overcab
- with an extremely high probability blow up the whole van long before a narcotic effect is achieved.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## tonyt (May 25, 2005)

Just like flying saucers - show me some credible evidence and I'll be the first to acknowledge their existence.


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

Very good post *Boff*. I still think it is few and far between the amount of people who are attacked and robbed. I am not saying people are not robbed or attacked. YES, we should take steps to prevent the possibility of an attack happening. But we should also not be so afraid or paranoid that the enjoyment is ruined. IMHO. :wink:


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

The problem is that if you contact the Camping Club they will tell you its true! They advised me not to stop in any aires anywhere in Europe, because of the various dangers, one of which was gas. Is it any wonder that people are concerned.

The first time I heard of this I was sceptical, and one of the first people who claimed to have suffered from it, had an insurance claim in for £5000.00 in lost money plus camera's ect 
£5000.00 they where coming home with £5000.00 not going! I don't take £5000.00 when I go, let along come back. I just thought SCAM.

And nothing I have heard or read has changed my mind.
"Belive nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see"
Perhaps if the CC listened to people like Boff they would stop giving out crap advice

Olley


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## johnsandywhite (May 9, 2005)

olley said:


> The first time I heard of this I was sceptical, and one of the first people who claimed to have suffered from it, had an insurance claim in for £5000.00 in lost money plus camera's ect
> £5000.00 they where coming home with £5000.00 not going! I don't take £5000.00 when I go, let along come back. I just thought SCAM.


 8O You and me both *olley*. I have also met people who have told they have been attacked and robbed, They always lost lot's of money, laptops etc. :roll:


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## bigfoot (May 16, 2005)

...not forgetting the Gold and Platinum Rolexes, fur coat and diamond necklace and earrings.
BTW do Tiffany or Lalique make shades for motorhome light fittings another claim coming on!!!!


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## olley (May 1, 2005)

Trouble is some birdbrained crook is going to think "is that how it's done" give it a try, blow the van up, kill somebody, wake the inhabitants up or just make a mess and people like CC will say "told you so" :evil: :evil: 

Olley


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## Grizzly (May 9, 2005)

Any thief who can fight his way past the tightly-packed spare cushions, barbeque, wellies, clothes, water bottles etc etc in our cab at night probably deserves the few euros and Argos watches he would find ! 

Laptop and cameras are well out of sight. It has occured to me that putting a couple of those sonic alert alarms on the wardrobe or lockers might stir us from sleep if anyone tried to open them.

G


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## phoenix (May 9, 2005)

Betterware currently selling Buy 4 get 4 free, sonic alarms plus 24 batteries for £12.99. Could have one on each door and window and cupboard door!!
Also have switch so during day you can have door chime instead of 90 decibel warning tone. 8) 

(But we won't be buying, not for the M/H, don't believe in gassings yet)

Lyn


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## Scotjimland (May 23, 2005)

phoenix said:


> (But we won't be buying, not for the M/H, don't believe in gassings yet)


Hi Lyn

Gassing has not been proved nor disproved but MHs are broken into, that's a fact, these alarms look like a resonable cheap way of protecting doors and windows, gas attacks or not.

Jim


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