# gaslow cylinder problems - an update



## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Having had problems in cold conditions with my gaslow cylinder, a problem also encountered by another forum member (jacqui), I took the liberty of ringing gaslow last week and was forwarded a copy of the email sent to jacqui, see her original post here -

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/postlite4117-lpg.html

Further to this, I asked gaslow for a verbal update on the situation. Richard Glazebrook, the MD of gaslow was abroad at the time and unavailable, but I was assured a reply on his return.

Today 7 feb 05 I received a phone call as promised from Richard with an update:-

After many enquiries to the relevant authorities for lpg on the continent he can confirm that as suggested by some members on jacqui's original post that it is standard practice for a mix of propane/butane on garage forecourts abroad. This problem is apparently either a way of using up surplus butane or possibly a cost cutting measure as butane is cheaper than propane. This is not a problem in the UK as the majority of the fuel here is propane with minimal butane added (if any).

Normal road vehicles using lpg tanks do not suffer any problems as they operate a 'liquid take off' arrangement causing no problems with the mix in the cold. lpg bottles use a 'vapour take off' and this is the problem as butane doesn't vaporize at low temperatures so it can't get out of the bottle in these conditions.

There are 2 possible solutions being evaluated by gaslow at the moment;

1. He has sourced (from Japan I think) a disposable heating wrap that operates on a chemical reaction process (similar to those emergency light sticks you crack open to operate) and will heat the cylinder sufficiently for up to 12 hrs at low cost (somewhere around the £2 mark). The idea being, the propane runs out (with an amount of butane left in the bottle), you then enable the heated wrap and burn off the excess butane before refilling the bottle. This solution would possibly be of interest if power consumption was an issue as it consumes no 12volt or mains power.

2. He is also looking into the feasibility of a low power 12volt wrap but this would be more expensive and there would more reliance on power than the previous option, probably no good if you wildcamp in these conditions or simply don't have access to mains electric or have insufficient battery power.

It is stressed that this should only be an issue for motorhomers spending extended periods in sub zero conditions. Normal winter holidays shouldn't present a problem as it's after repeated refilling and the resulting gradual reduction in bottle capacity that causes the problem.

He has also quite rightly strongly advised that you do not attempt to remove the cylinder, turn it upside down and discharge the excess butane into the atmosphere, very dangerous I think you'll agree! (you'd probably end up with your hands welded to the bottle!).

I also mentioned the problem of my gauge in these conditions showing red all the time even when the bottle is full and he has confirmed this is the butane causing the inaccurate reading as the gauge works by pressure. I can confirm that my gauge, once back to normal temps now works ok, so that seems a fair conclusion.

Hopefully i've got all that info correct (its me age you know).

I would certainly have thought more carefully about the purchase of refillables if i had known this before purchase, but as i said, probably only a big problem if you do a lot of extended winter camping and hopefully a solution is coming soon.

Richard has promised to reply within 6 weeks after further research and I have every reason to believe him. It seems to me that this is a company that doesn't shirk it's responsibilities and is actively searching for a solution to a problem beyond their control and genuinely cares about its customers (others will say they've got no choice, or sales will drop).

Usual disclaimers, nothing to do with the company, just impressed with their attitude and after sales service.

Watch this space for an update in the future…..

Pete.


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## smifee (May 17, 2005)

why can't a small blown air pipe be run from outside the van through the locker as they do for water tanks?

i'm sure as usual there's a reason why my simple idea won't work :roll:


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## 93295 (May 1, 2005)

Hi peejay......I must admit that I find the whole subject becoming more and more complex. But your posting was most enlightening.

I am (was) a gas fitter, but from a different age...

To me, it appears that commercial considerations are once again taking precedence........(it is cheaper to produce butane than propane).

Safety wise, I do not think it would create any real problems.......but inconvienience wise.....??????

Such is the commercial world we now live in........


___________________


Would I turn a cylinder upside down and empty it ?

Even if I was wearing thick gloves and pointed the valve downwind, whilst in a remote area...........

No, I'm not going to risk being sued.


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## 93652 (May 1, 2005)

Very enlightening postings, never new they'd stick butane in with the prop'
do they do this in Eire or Uk ?

As for emptying them well let me digress, some 15 years ago I did my first offshore survival course and part of it was a day playing with smoke/flares and fires, especially cascading burning derv and this derv was ignited by 3 x 47K propane cyc's being turned on ,lit and then pointyed at the derv,

Over 20-30 mins we each had to try to bring things under control. not a chance the propane would not go out, the instructor just wandered up behind the cyc's and one by one turned them off !

Mike


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

Thanks PJ for further information.

Mike asked 


metalmicky said:


> Very enlightening postings, never new they'd stick butane in with the prop'
> do they do this in Eire or Uk ?Mike


The original problem was brought to the attention of MotorhomeFacts by Jacqui in this posting http://www.motorhomefacts.com/posts4117-0.html

It would appear in some continental countries, the Autogas (LPG) has quite high percentages of butane mixed with propane. The exact mixes probably vary with country to country and with the seasons. It would appear very little if any butane is mixed with autogas in the UK but whether this will remain so is another matter. No idea what they do in Eire,
but even if in the future butane is mixed with propane in the UK I cannot see it being a problem because it is only rarely we suffer prolonged very cold spells

peedee


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## trigrem (May 1, 2005)

Interesting post as we are considering fitting Gaslow bottles.
As a comment to any possible problems in the UK if a Propane/Butane
is supplied I have used gas cartridges on backpaking camping stove which had a 85% Butane 15% Propane mix at -5 degrees C while I was still laying in my sleeping bag, with the cylinder resting on frozen ground and still managed to provide my morning cuppa, although sometimes I had to wrap my gloved hands around the cannister to make the water boil So I would think with a cylinder in a gas locker and off the floor it should not be a problem depending on the mix.
Doug


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

*Freezing LPG*

Hi All
Further to my original posts it is good to see the info from Gaslow. We have been trying to work around the problem as we travel. We always park where we know we will get some sun on the cylinders then we insulate the tanks as it gets cold.We have two cylinders one large one small. We use the small tank at night first then as it starts to freeze usually by 1-2am we switch tanks onto the large cylinder this is still freezing up but there is usually enough to get us through to the morning.Then we try to warm the bottles again. We have met other travellers with the same problem. One did suggest diverting warm air into the locker from our blown air heating system so we are looking at how we can do that.

Will watch any further developments with interest, we will still be in The Alpes for some time yet and temps have been between -6 and -17 degrees so will let you know if we come up with anything else to help!

Kind regards
Jacqui


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

There are thermostatically controlled heating belts made to around two demijohns for wine making, they are 240volts but as they would be very low wattage could be run from an inverter, if they were plugged in from outside the gas box I would not think fire hazard to be minimal.

Any thoughts?

Ken


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

Hi,

I wouldn't call this a commercial issue. The LPG tapped at fuel stations is intended for _automotive_ use. And here it is no problem as the gas is taken out of the liquid phase.

So refillable gas bottles can be considered a kind of "misuse" of this system. Which is, by the way, illegal e.g. in Netherlands!

Unfortunately I am not too confident regarding low power heating wraps: Evaporation of LPG can consume *a lot of heat*. And the more gas is taken out of the bottle the colder the bottle gets. Ever seen a gas bottle on a construction site getting iced on a hot summer day? I have.

The chemical heat wrap might be more effective, but of course once it is "ignited" it can't be switched off anymore and 12 hours operation time is not too much.



smifee said:


> why can't a small blown air pipe be run from outside the van through the locker as they do for water tanks?


Besides from being illegal (the gas box must always be sealed air-tight against the interior of the motorhome and the blown hot air comes from the heating and the heating air is drawn from, guess where...) it would also be quite dangerous: Just imagine a gas leak in coincidence with a defective heater where the flame is not completely isolated from the air vent system: Gas leaks into the gas box, from there through the air pipe into the heater. Suddenly the heater decides it is now cold enough to switch on again: *BOOM!!!*

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## smifee (May 17, 2005)

hi gerhard

oh dear i have got an illegal van 8O 

my gas compartment can only be opened from inside the van. 

i think that the present compensation culture is the cause of the 'this packet of nuts may contain nuts' syndrome.

how far do we take 'if this fault happens at the same time as that fault '. we are told that we musn't use gas on the move and advised to turn gas supply off before travelling. the yanks run their fridge freezers on gas whilst driving and fill up with petrol with it running. how many filling stations have been blown up by this :?: 

i'll carry on with care life's too short for me to get safety obsession syndrome. i like a gamble. life will be even shorter if i make the wrong bet though :wink:  :lol:


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## Boff (May 10, 2005)

smifee said:


> oh dear i have got an illegal van 8O
> 
> my gas compartment can only be opened from inside the van.


Sorry to disappoint you, but most probably you have not. :wink:

It may very well be opened from the inside, as long as the hatch seals air tight (normal rubber gasket is sufficient, we are not in outer space) and the gas box is ventilated (drop holes) to the outside.



smifee said:


> how far do we take 'if this fault happens at the same time as that fault '. we are told that we musn't use gas on the move and advised to turn gas supply off before travelling. the yanks run their fridge freezers on gas whilst driving and fill up with petrol with it running. how many filling stations have been blown up by this :?:


Well, I also frequently have the gas heating on while driving. And in Germany this is perfectly legal. And for safety I would not mind keeping the engine running while refuelling. Just for fuel efficiency it is nonsense. Another yankee habit is much more dangerous: Going back into the car while refuelling.



smifee said:


> i'll carry on with care life's too short for me to get safety obsession syndrome. i like a gamble. life will be even shorter if i make the wrong bet though :wink:  :lol:


Nothing about obsession. But there are really better things to gamble with than just gas. Money, for example.

In my scenario you don't even have to have a defective heater: Gas can diffuse into the interior of the van and get in contact with the fridge's pilot light. Or it could even be a spark on the perfectly well-working heater fan that makes it bang.

Best Regards,
Gerhard


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## smifee (May 17, 2005)

hi again gerhard

if i shine a torch i can see into the gas locker. it has an ordinary locker door no seal just 2 drop holes. the conversion was done in 1998 on a new van and i presume it conformed to the regulations, if any, that were in force then.

the new van has an exterior gas locker and refillable bottle soon to be bottles but after this winter i hope to be where it's warm enough not to have to worry about the temperature.

keep gambling and good luck

regards

mike


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## 93652 (May 1, 2005)

Try www.gasure.co.uk/underfloor.htm

Solves a lot of problems. I've only a vw t3 so space is at a premium and we like to go wild for long periods.

Mike


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## Anonymous (Nov 10, 2000)

*Short term solution*

Not ideal but it helps. We now warm the tanks overnight with a couple of hot water bottles. Water boiled up before the gaz freezes!
Awaiting a more professional solution now.

Jacqui


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