# Can anyone confirm our garage repair bill



## see_leigh

Our Hymer B544 has recently undergone extensive repairs including the engine being remanufactured.

I am just asking if anyone, once we have the final bill, can look at it and give their professional opinion as to whether the charges are reasonable.

We knew the engine had blown so we contacted a professional engine remanufacturer specialist who gave us an estimate of £2500 to remanufacture the engine plus parts. We were happy that we could meet these costs.

However, he then informed us that he was unable to remanufacture the engine and suggested we buy a remanufactured engine 'off the shelf' for £3000 which we did.

He has also changed some parts and has manufactured some parts. (its all a bit vague) 

The bill now stands at just under £10,000

I am not suggesting that he is over charging us or doing anything improper, however, I would feel more comfortable if I could get a independent professional to evaluate the bill once we have a breakdown of all costs.

Paying the £10,000 will wipe us out of all the funds we had saved for a 2-3 year tour around Europe in our Hymer and leave us penniless and homeless (except for the Hymer which we can't afford to run!!) so as you can understand the accuracy of this bill is very important to us.

I would be grateful if anyone that knows how these work can look at it and confirm the parts and labour costs.

t present we do still do not have the final bill as he is struggling to complete the job, but once he does I assume we will be provided with a full breakdown.

As you have guessed I am not mechanical and am feeling very vulnerable.

Thank you


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## dalspa

Thats a huge jump from £3k to £10k to cover for labour and the "other bits". What year and engine is it - we had a 2002 B544 with the 2.8jtd engine? Is it an earlier model with the older engine? What were the "extensive repairs"? Lots more info required before people can advise.

DavidL


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## BillCreer

The first thing is to remove anything that is "vague" from the proceedings and be sure that you understand what you are paying for.
Second thing is to get them to give you that information on an itemised statement.
You are unlikely to get anyone on this Forum to give you a "professional" opinion but there are plenty of well meaning amateurs who would help.


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## see_leigh

Its a Hymer B544 2.5 turbo 1993 - he says that he has experienced great difficulty in sourcing parts for this year and as he did not take the engine apart originally (another garage did this to diagnose and didn't feel able to complete the job) he has struggled to fit the engine back into the block

Also the vagueness is something we have been trying to address for weeks, I have requested a breakdown of all costs to date on 4 occasions and nothing is forthcoming. I have demanded he stop work on it once as I could not understand the rise in costs but he practically demanded that he continue work - his communication leaves something to be desired.


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## erneboy

Didn't you get lots of advice about this job and what it should cost on another recent thread on here?


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## see_leigh

erneboy said:


> Didn't you get lots of advice about this job and what it should cost on another recent thread on here?


I asked about technical drawings and I got some great advice, all of which was rejected for one reason or another by our mechanic.

People on here advised that the cost seemed high for an engine to be remanufactured but without a breakdown I guess we/and other people are only guessing as we don't have details of all work carried out.

What I could do with is a more informed opinion about costs when the details are available.


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## cabby

If you belong to one of the motoring clubs, RAC or AA. their technical and legal teams are very good. Also you can use the local trading standards etc.

It reads as if you are being taken for a ride. Do not pay anything until you get some qualified advice.

cabby

I see you have not disclosed your location or who the garages are. We may know of them or their reputation.


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## Penquin

If you have told them to stop work then they should have done precisely that until you were happy for them to continue.

IMO any work they have done should have been agreed, even the manufacture of "minor parts" since it may have been possible to source them from places he did not attempt - that is one thing MHF has - an excellent database i.e. the members knowledge and memory.

If he continued to work then that is at his expense IMO - you had told him to stop.

I suspect that you are going to end up needing professional advice not only on the work he has supposedly done, but also on how liable you are for his lack of knowledge. It is quite possible that this could end up in a litigious situation - and of course £10k is way above the small claims court threshold.

Instruct him IN WRITING to do no more work until a fully itemised account has been submitted and approved.

Get that checked and only when you are happy should he be allowed to continue.

DO NOT SIMPLY ALLOW HIM TO CONTINUE - IT SOUNDS FROM WHAT YOU HAVE SAID THAT HE DOES NOT KNOW WHAT HE HAS UNDERTAKEN.

Get professional advice - the AA or the RAC would be best from mechanical advice but you need legal advice too -so find a solicitor who can advise you.

Do not allow it to just drift - hence the STOP authority in writing while you work out what to do.

Dave


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## Carl_n_Flo

First class advice Dave!!!!


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## erneboy

I recommended expert help a week ago http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-2135929-.html#2135929

I still do. It sounds as though there is bodging going on (did you say he was fabricating parts?) and I think you have no way of knowing what the quality of the work done will be like. 10k is absolutely nuts to supply and fit a recon engine.


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## Stanner

erneboy said:


> I recommended expert help a week ago http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopicp-2135929-.html#2135929
> 
> I still do. It sounds as though there is bodging going on (did you say he was fabricating parts?) and I think you have no way of knowing what the quality of the work done will be like. 10k is absolutely nuts to supply and fit a recon engine.


Seems to me that the main thing he has been fabricating is the bill. :roll:


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## rosalan

I feel very sorry for you in your present situation, which will not help I know but it really makes me cross when someone professes not to understand the mechanics involved and is getting, what looks like, being bullied and blinded with technology. Many people including women, have no real interest in mechanics and can get taken for a ride.
It is absolutely possible that the costs of labour and parts have reached these dizzying heights but if so, I would question the skill of the garage services. I would not have thought it inconceivable to find another engine and fully rebuild it for a fraction of the price quoted. Buying from overseas if needs be and still for less money.
Why on earth it should be difficult to fit the same engine into the van, or even a different engine where moving major components about took place. Something feels wrong here and I cannot put my finger on it.

Alan


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## p-c

Hi
Re Cabby's location request, I believe the motorhome was in Reading, no garage specified.
p-c


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## cabby

The advice on here comes down to getting qualified people to look at the vehicle and see what is wrong, what has been done and what still needs to be done and also if all is done properly.
Could I ask if you got a written report from the first garage which supposedly stripped down the engine to fault find.
Did you get an itemised Vat bill.
Who and how was the vehicle taken to the second garage.

The only fabrications that I could imagine to be made would be engine mounts if the wrong engine block was supplied.
I am not sure what is meant these days by a remanufactured engine, is this a re-bored block with new pistons, crank etc. we called it a rebuilt short engine. They might have had trouble getting a cylinder head and he is trying to make the wrong one fit. But a query on the Fiat forum would get an answer about parts.

You have to get seriously qualified assistance over this NOW. DO NOT pay any bill until you have done this.

cabby


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## rayrecrok

Hey up.

Why did you not get a re conditioned engine?

Here

ray.


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## nicholsong

rayrecrok said:


> Hey up.
> 
> Why did you not get a re conditioned engine?
> 
> Here
> 
> ray.


Ray

That advice would have been pertinent at the start, but unfortunately the OP seems to have got into the hands of two garages before MHF members got involved.

The recon alternative might however be relevant if this comes to a legal dispute as to whether he was advised to go this route or 'conned' into a more expensive alternative.

The problem with the advice to stop and pay nothing is that the vehicle could get stuck in the current garage under a 'repairer's lien'. In which case he needs not only technical but also legal advice.

Geoff


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## Stanner

nicholsong said:


> rayrecrok said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey up.
> 
> Why did you not get a re conditioned engine?
> 
> Here
> 
> ray.
> 
> 
> 
> Ray
> 
> That advice would have been pertinent at the start, but unfortunately the OP seems to have got into the hands of two garages before MHF members got involved.
> 
> The recon alternative might however be relevant if this comes to a legal dispute as to whether he was advised to go this route or 'conned' into a more expensive alternative.
> 
> The problem with the advice to stop and pay nothing is that the vehicle could get stuck in the current garage under a 'repairer's lien'. In which case he needs not only technical but also legal advice.
> 
> Geoff
Click to expand...

There must also be considered the likelihood that sellers of recon engines require a reconable engine to be part exchanged. 
If one isn't chopped in against the new engine there is often a very hefty surcharge. 
We are told the existing engine is stuffed, so a surcharged outright purchase may have been the only option.


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## rosalan

One reason Ray, I checked most of their site and they do not seem to have any Fiat engines.

Alan


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## rayrecrok

> rosalan"]One reason Ray, I checked most of their site and they do not seem to have any Fiat engines.
> 
> Alan


Hey up..

Didn't look I just googled re con engines and there were pages to choose from, I can't believe there are no suppliers for re con engines that don't have a factory full of Fiat engines of every kind, every motor home engine is only a commercial engine fitted in the millions of vans through out the world...

If the engine had been fixed albeit at an inflated price, it can't have been that knackered or they would have binned it, so it would have been taken against a re con, and how can an exchange re con engine supplier actually know what is wrong with an engine they take in until they strip it down to rebuild it so it works, the brother in law does gear boxes and they have the same criteria they take one in that does not work, and sell them out to some one else with one that works as new..

ray.


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## Stanner

rayrecrok said:


> .....and how can an exchange re con engine supplier actually know what is wrong with an engine they take in until they strip it down to rebuild it so it works,


A cracked block (if it really WAS cracked, the more I read the more sceptical I get :roll: ) is usually fairly obvious and fairly fatal for reconning so a no no for trading in.

The OP does seem to have been particularly unfortunate in their choice of repairers thus far. :?

PS If it were me I would be involving Trading Standards - well I would if I had allowed things to get this far.


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## see_leigh

We found the engine at

http://www.replacementengines.co.uk...ioned-fiat-ducatodieselvan-engine&mo_id=31765

but we were advised by The Federation of Engine Remanufactorers that they did not have a very good reputation within the industry.

When contacting CFM Engineering they estimated £2500 for remanufacturing and fitting the engine. This was a cost that we thought was reasonable to ensure a trustworthy engine as it was our intention to live full time in the van long term.

Forgive me for not being able to answer some of the more technical questions. I'm sure you all have better things to do but I have posted the email I received from CFM Engineering that discusses technical work carried out and the costs involved.

This is the response we got when we requested a breakdown of the costs and a time frame for completing the job.

(the original estimate was £2500 for remanufacturing the engine plus parts - £2000 for labour plus VAT was never discussed)

-email form CFM

'I will clarify this but I feel we're going around in circles and over old ground as we've discussed this subject several times over with yourself and Rachel, and you have been fully informed at every step so you're aware of the issues we're having. Further to this we suggested you were involved in the research process so you;

a have a useful list of technical contacts for yourself in the future
b save CFM Engineering time which could potentially prevent some hours being billed to the job
c possibly shorten the timescale of the work

The original estimate was based on:
a £2500 for remanufacture of the engine (assuming block, crank and head were able to be remanufactured) - backed up by email to you 24/4 confirming £3000 deposit (being £2500 plus VAT) required to purchase an exchange engine as yours was beyond repair.
b Components needed to complete the install
c Labour to remove and refit, test etc

The discussion from the beginning was that you had to budget for £2500 for the engine, possibly £2000 labour (equals 40 man hours) for removal and refit and a potential £ 500 to £1000 for ancillary items/brackets/components around the engine bay required for the process. I stated (as I always do) that you have to have a contingency for all unforeseen circumstances. So the above original estimate without additional contingency was an estimate of £5000 to £5500, therefore with VAT £6000 to £6600.

The task is long and arduous as the vehicle arrived with the engine in, yet cylinder head and surrounding components already removed, and all old parts and bolts thrown in one big box rather than being cleaned, bagged and labelled. The block was scored deeply so couldn't be re-bored, and lining the block would involve massive expense and several extra months as they would have to be a bespoke manufacture. A complete unit was then sourced via an external main supplier of remanufactured engines, and for the same value.

Subsequently all parts ordered in advance from motor factors were incorrect as no company had parts catalogues, reference books or drawings of any kind. Further to this both FIAT and IVECO main dealers and specialists have been of very little use as many do not carry any details at all of this age of vehicle, and on many occasions their systems would not recognise the chassis number despite being of FIAT issue.

The problem is your vehicle is based on a commercial vehicle which is 22 years old of which the manufacturer has stopped supplying parts or technical support/information in approximately 2004, so 10 years ago! As Hymer is also a limited volume coach builder, and the chassis was originally a commercial vehicle, there is probably no European legal requirement for FIAT, IVECO or Hymer to provide anything beyond this date.

As you are aware we have then spent days chasing any information from breakers, camper specialists, Hymer specialists, and many more, all to no avail. If it was a Sprinter based Hymer we would be in a much better position. Currently your direct costs have increased due to the additional near failure of the fuel injection system to operate within safe parameters. Discussions between both parties regarding this issue did take place many times and you were given information and options in which to choose a route to proceed. I believe you made the right decision. This was additional cost to you, and as you are aware this work was conducted by a third party, which was paid by you directly. Therefore we have taken this route to save you money as not added any margin on for subcontract services which is the norm in any industry. Therefore all time involved in dismantling, cleaning, research, discussions, and then delivery and collection of the unit to the injection specialist has not been charged. We are trying to assist you in getting the project completed and as reasonably priced as possible, and actions like these go to demonstrate this. I hope it is appreciated.

Currently your revised estimate stands as above, plus extra time in stripping cleaning, measuring of original engine (scrapped due to bore damage) pressure testing of the radiator and sourcing and installing a replacement cabin heater. We have also spent considerable time welding and repairing and paint protecting your exhaust downpipe as a new item is not available.
There is the additional cost of the injection system, but this is separate and additional to the original works, and as mentioned was of no financial benefit to CFM Engineering.

As things stand so far we have had two amounts of additional work in the last 2 days:

1. The old and new engine blocks are not identical, despite being the same engine code. This situation is typical of mass production with multiple end vehicle uses. Various modifications to the block have had to be made to ensure connecting bolts for various flanges are actually the correct thread and length. This has to do with the oil system so is essential, and also delicate to ensure no contamination from swarf.
2. The cam timing belt is a crucial element to the precision timing of the rotating parts of the engine (the clockwork element) and this belt is tensioned and guided by various pulleys and wheels. The main idle wheel is held onto the engine by a flimsy cast iron bracket that has a machined stub axle to locate the idle wheel and allow it to spin with precision. The original design is not brilliant, but then I expect not much thought was given to it lasting so long. Your cast bracket was in poor condition and when the wheel was removed from the axle it was cracked and broken. Cast iron is not the best item to weld (and this was in poor condition) and is also complicated process.
A great deal of time has been given to sourcing a new replacement component but it has been obsolete from FIAT/IVECO for 10+ years. As this is essentially one of the most important components bolted to the engine and prevents the timing from slipping and causing catastrophic damage, a second-hand item of potentially 20 years of age was clearly not an option. Global enquiries for the part only brought in offers from China to manufacture the item again, but with a minimum run of 500 units. As this was not cost effective we have machined a new stub axle and made our own mounting bracket, all out of solid steel.
A picture is attached. You can see the old item in the back ground which has broken (been welded) and then broken again in a different place. The bespoke steel item is in the foreground.

Regarding an estimate on timescale, I estimate to finish is 15 hours straight forward hands on tools time, but this would be with all parts to hand, knowledge of location and nothing else breaking. As you know we have very few replacement parts, no knowledge as we did not remove or strip the top half of the engine, and no technical drawings or information. Therefore it is impossible to state a final completion time. We need it done as soon as possible as it is completely holding one of our units at standstill due to the size and immobility of the vehicle.

I hope you appreciate it is in our mutual interest to complete this job at the earliest opportunity. However we do require some consideration in the task we willing took on to assist you when you had very few other options.


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## Stanner

If it is as they say then any responsible repairer should have advised you that the repair was uneconomic.


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## rosalan

I was a little surprised that the bits not being clean and sorted should have caused distress, for most mechanics I have observed throw the components into a container for either cleaning or re-fitting. They 'know' where and which nuts and bolts go.
'No. 1 Gear' carry many of the parts for Fiat engines of this period that research should have picked up on. However, at the end of the day, the garage is not a charity and each fitter and workshop bay must earn its keep. Sadly the efficiency of their finding and knowing of parts, would seem to have fallen below economic expectations.

There is an almost unspoken warning in this thread, to any owner of a motorhome who keeps the vehicle for more than 10 years.
If something goes wrong; tough!
There are a lot of Motorhomes around that date back as far as 2003 that may need to feel some concern if this thread is to be believed.

Alan


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## rayrecrok

Hey up.

It seems as the garage was between a rock and a hard place, and with the benefit of hindsight would have turned the job down...

I still think a suitable re con engine could have been found and you would have never needed to put up this post, but they seem to have done the best they could with what you presented them with... As for the Estimate and that is what it is, it is a best shot of what they thought might be wrong with the engine, which turned out to be a lot more work and parts when the thing was stripped down, against a Quote which is a figure you would have to stick with and is non negotiable on both sides, but obviously they would be taking into account everything that "might" be wrong and hit you with an enormous Quote..

Which on reflection would have been about or more than what you are being charged for the work done, but would have set alarm bells ringing and maybe choose a different option, even scrapping the van..

So maybe you went the wrong route unless you are happy with the van and it now or will go, you asked the piper to play, now you have to pay him.. Maybe next time get your subs moneys worth and ask here before you commit yourself a lot of folk do :wink: ..

ray.


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## barryd

Well it may not help the OP much but hopefully this thread will possibly help others. I priced up an engine on that site for our van and it came out at £1180 (2.5 TD Peugeot Boxer 1996 van).

It would not however let me quote for it fitted!

I am kind of with Ray on this one though. OK so the OP's van is an old one but there must be plenty of them that have gone to breakers so I fail to understand why a second hand engine could not have been sourced and that is the route the garage and OP should have gone down. 

I often have to work with my Garage to find bits for our 1996 van and it is true they are often hard to find but so far we (well mainly me and the good people on here) have found them or a near as damit fit.

The garage should have looked into this and done more research and advised you better I think. They should be considerate of this fact with your final bill really.

For a job like that I would be wanting a quote with a fixed price. Thats what my customers would expect from me for a big job. IF I quote someone for a £5K job and it takes me twice as long as what I envisaged or I run into unforseen problems. Tough titty. (for me that is). Its still £5K to the customer.


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## nicholsong

[quote="rosalan"

There is an almost unspoken warning in this thread, to any owner of a motorhome who keeps the vehicle for more than 10 years.
If something goes wrong; tough!

There are a lot of Motorhomes around that date back as far as 2003 that may need to feel some concern if this thread is to be believed.

Alan[/quote]

I hope you are being over-pessimistic.

Our Arto is 2003 (could be 2002 Fiat Base) but has done only 29,500 miles so I am hopeful a long way to go yet and the Habitation side is in excellent condition.

Even if the engine did become unrepairable/ not reconable I think the MH would be worth a new, if different, engine and gearbox if necessary.

Geoff


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## Penquin

Our Kontiki is 2003 and has done 24,000 and runs well with excellent habitation area.

My one main concern would be to not get into a situation that does not have a clear end, before trusting your expensive vehicle to anyone to work on, try and verify their level of competence for that vehicle.

If they cannot supply that reassurance, go somewhere else and do not allow anyone to start working.

BUT that is easily said with hindsight......

Dave


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## see_leigh

cabby said:


> If you belong to one of the motoring clubs, RAC or AA. their technical and legal teams are very good. Also you can use the local trading standards etc.
> 
> It reads as if you are being taken for a ride. Do not pay anything until you get some qualified advice.
> 
> cabby
> 
> I see you have not disclosed your location or who the garages are. We may know of them or their reputation.


The AA were helpful but advised that I needed to get a second opinion on the costs when we receive a breakdown of the bill from a professional, hence my plea on here.

Trading Standards may be an idea though, thanks for taking the time to post.


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## 1302

Whilst I feel very sorry for the OP who hasn't really got the funds to pay for this eventually expensive repair, I do have some sympathy for the garage/mechanic. The job has escalated from the original well meaning £3000 to a nightmare due to many factors out of their control. I stick with VW and Mercedes for a reason - they provide spares way beyond the remit of many other manufactureers and due to my long lasting love of VWs I know where to get this stuff fixed. To be told that Fiat wont or cant provide spares for 20 years old is laughable. Ive rebuilt 50 year old Volkswagens thanks to a network of reputable suppliers and specialists.

Still £10K for a Fiat lump is a tad rich - I replaced a Porsche 911 engine a few years back for todays equivalent of £6000.


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## Stanner

1302 said:


> Ive rebuilt 50 year old Volkswagens thanks to a network of reputable suppliers and specialists.


I bet not many of the parts came from VW itself. :wink:

How many parts do main dealers stock for those 50 year old models?



> thanks to a network of reputable suppliers and specialists


You often find this about makes that need lots of spares - the big demand stimulates the market and economy of scale keeps the price down.

PS from what is said in the thread most of the £10k is down to "labour costs" and most of that seems to be pfaffing about achieving nothing more than an ever inflated bill. :roll:


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## Murphey

Really feel you, a terrible situation to be in. But this might be a clue as to why your engine failed..

Mine is in for a diesel pump rebuild as it was losing performance. Just had the final diagnosis & basically the pump internals are chewed up, a common problem on these old Bosch pumps.

The metal fragments can make their way through the injectors & into the piston. I would seriously look into having the pump checked & change the fuel filter.


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## funkyronster

Been reading this post with sadness. It could happen to anybody. Owners can't be expected to know every technicality, and garages can't be expected to predict every problem.

However I do think the garage should be taking a more sympathetic line. After all, they have plenty more jobs to make up for the occasional bad one - indeed they should expect such jobs and cost them into their overhead. Whereas for you, it's a one off that can be never recovered.

So I have nothing extra to offer except sympathy.....and I wouldn't have written this if I hadn't seen this ad on ebay this morning. I am looking for a new van, and I have the habit of reading every single motorhome ad on Ebay for the last 6 months. It's amazing what comes up, and it has also given me a good feel for prices.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1992-HYME...mpers_Caravans_Motorhomes&hash=item43cb724af2

I don't know if links are allowed on here, if it doesn't work just search for a B544 on Ebay - it only came up today. And I have seen others and similar.

And I thought of you and it made me angry....and I got to thinking what would I do if it were me. Well here goes.....

Now please don't take this as solid advice, because we are getting into consumer and contractual law here.....but my feeling when I saw the figure of £10,000, was "they could buy a new van for that" and so you can. Although this B544 is in Spain, I just feel that you could Easyjet out there and probably make an offer. After all, as an existing owner you know what you are looking at!

As for the law and finances, it depends on what is on paper, and how much you have paid. Maybe it would be worth spending a few quid on a solicitors opinion. But if you haven't paid the full 10k and work has stopped, you may be in a position to wriggle out of this.

Obviously I am not saying pay the 10k and buy a new van!!!

I am NOT advocating dishonesty here.....but in my long experience I have found that in general these situations are solved by pragmatic reality. It is unlikely that you will get sued, and even if you do, forget what you have seen on the TV, I have been in county courts on both sides, and have found them to be informal, and the judges very fair. And generally, in a complicated case with no clear cut evidence, just who said what, they end up splitting the difference anyway. It is unlikely that the garage will have the time or inclination to defend - they have work to do. And you will have the upper hand if you get in first. It costs less than £100 to lodge a claim. The trick is to not claim a huge figure, hoping the final compromise will be about half. If you do that, they will have to defend in case they lose. Claim a figure and write a story that includes compromise and understanding, and they are likely as not to look at it and decide they can't be bothered. In county court, if the other side doesn't turn up either represented or prepared, then you win by default.

Only you know the exact figures - but from what I can see, the garage has paid 2500 for a new engine - it is still a new engine - he should be able to sell it back or sell it on, same with any other expensive parts - they have value. There seems to be a huge amount of labour - but labour is where he can take a hit - garages may charge £50 an hour, but the mechanic only gets 10 or 12 of that - the rest is overhead.

And remember this - the bigger the garage, the less likely he will suffer. If he is a one man outfit then it will be a big issue, and your tactics should also be different. But if it's a big outfit then they should be able to take the hit. They should take some of the blame. Don't forget that the owner of this garage has long experience, he knows the score - it's his job to wriggle out at minimum cost, AND SO IS YOURS!! Stand up and fight, and he is likely to back down. To mount a credible defence he is looking at hours of preparation, and then a day in court facing you. Or he has to employ a solicitor.....The figures, while heartbreaking to you, just are not big enough for lawyers to be involved. But you should be ready willing and able to spend as much time as you need.

So basically I would hit him with a county court summons.....simply saying you agreed a figure for an engine replacement, and he hasn't delivered. Don't ask for punitive damages, just ask for your van and money back as was. No point in asking them to put the original engine back in! He may ask for the labour of taking it out.

If you are lucky, they will just cave in, return your money, and you will have to find a home for a 544 with no engine. Or maybe they will mount a defence. But even if they do, it is highly likely that you will get a more favourable judgement than them. And in any event, at this stage of the game, anything less than £10k is a victory.

Personally I think you are in a decent position. Perhaps you should offer a token sum to cover some of his labour costs - at NETT. CC judges always look favourably on compromise. There is no way a CC judge will let a consumer bear the WHOLE cost of a suppliers mistake or even misjudgement. The garage will argue he acted in good faith, but so have you, so why should you pay ALL?

Either way the trick is to get your van back at minimum cost.

Then you either do exhaustive research and find a new garage, or you buy a new 544 for 5 or 6 grand, and scrap the old one. You will be surprised how much you will get. Hymer's are rarely broken, and when they are it's like a feeding frenzy. I saw a Fiat Hymer being broken at a scrap yard in Essex. He quoted me £100 just for the drivers door, and said I'd better hurry as the whole front end was already gone.

Now you may not have the time, skill, or inclination to turn your old van into spares, but the option is there. It is worth something.

Remember you are faced with a 10k bill. If you can get your van back for nothing, or a small sum, buy a new one for 5 and sell the old one for 1 or 2, then you will have paid no more than what you should have for an engine replacement. And that should be your final goal - to pay no more or less than what it should have been in the first place.

And from what other posters have said about the injectors and metal bits...I am not sure if you could ever be happy with it again - so maybe a new van is the way to go. All you have to do is extricate yourself at minimum but fair cost.

The final solution will depend on you personally - I don't know you. But if you have the time and energy to stand up and fight, you have a little to lose and a lot to gain.

By the way, personally, I don't advocate the use of a solicitor in County Court (also called small claims court)....but this is a personal view based on my own experience. You will probably end up with a junior out to make his mark, and county court judges have seen it all before. Do it yourself - all it takes is common sense and preparedness. You won't get thrown out on technicalities and the clerks are there to help YOU. Don't be indignant or belligerent, just state your case and present the facts, much as you have done on this forum.

It COULD (no promises!) be as simple as open and shut.....they quoted and didn't deliver, end of story, you win.

Back to square one with a broken Hymer, but under the circumstances that is what is fair.

It basically comes down to a simple choice - pay or fight. And if you fight, the County Court option is your only choice - just don't be frightened by it.

Good luck, and if I have said anything in this post that others disagree with, I am only offering my personal opinion in the spirit of fellowship.

Ron B

PS If you do OK and it does come to replacing the van, and you can afford it, may I suggest a Mercedes based model for just a little more money. Mine has done 250,000 miles in 20 years, and as an avid forum reader I can tell you that the old Merc engines have a near religious following, and that you are not the first owner with a blown Fiat. They are known as the million mile engine. I am not saying Fiats have a bad reputation....they were just not built to the same standard as Mercs. That's why Mercs were that much more expensive....then and now. If you use your van a lot, then Mercs are better. But if you only do 2 weeks a year then it doesn't matter.


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## nicholsong

There is some sound advice in 'funkyronster''s post

You may not feel so confident as he about representing yourself in Court and if so got to a Solicitor, but choose an experienced one regardless of cost. I am a Barrister and am currently taking advice on IHT and am using a City firm who probably charge 350/hr but I know they are worth it. I am not suggesting that you have to pay that for this matter, but just give it as an example of my attitude as a lawyer to getting value for money.

Another point I would make is that if you go to court it would be useful to your case if you could demonstrate in writing that you had tried to offer a sum to settle the matter. Als, if they sue you or cross-claim for their money you have an option of 'paying into Court' what you think is a fair amount - this has the effect that, if they are awarded no more than this amount by the Court, then all your costs from the date you pay into court are recoverable from them, on the basis that they should have accepted your offer and not continued litigation.

I personally would be going to a good Litigation Solicitor now. Hit them with a Solicitors letter from a reputable firm and my guess is they will compromise very readily as they probably cannot justify 10,000. You will probably only pay for 1/2 to 1 hour's advice and be a few thousand to the better. Also you will have assurance that you are taking the right action and not guessing/relying on us 'amateurs' - well I would be on this or IHT; Aviation Law was my speciality :wink: 

Geoff


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