# Electric vehicles thread



## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I've put this in Motorhoming ChitChat as there is no EV forum although I think VS should include one as it is not going to go away.

I've been getting more an more interested as new models come along, Tesla is the world leader in EVs but the others are catching up with the tech and some are over taking them, this one from China for example, you can actually buy one without a battery and subscribe to scheme where you just drive into a place and 5 minutes later drive out with a fully charged battery.

I watched 5th gear do a review of it on TV with JP and VBH, and although hard to please thought it was a very good car on many levels, I'll add it when it comes up on Youtube 28/5/22..

NIO ES8 Launches in Norway


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Saw one of these yesterday. https://www.citroen.co.uk/about-citroen/concept-cars/ami-one-concept.html

Interesting but ......


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

A huge But in more ways than one, Citroen has always been innovative but I can't see many of those coming to the UK, Fugly little thing, no licence needed, so that'd be fun for the cyclists and pedestrians NOT.


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

Where do you put the shopping and the dog? No good for me.


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## nidge1 (Jul 26, 2009)

Wouldn’t want a showdown with a 44 ton artic!


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

But the NEO ES8 is £60k.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

nidge1 said:


> Wouldn't want a showdown with a 44 ton artic!


Pah!! a shopping trolley would be enough.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

raynipper said:


> But the NEO ES8 is £60k.
> 
> Ray.


On par with quite a few at that price though, maybe wait for them to come up at a car boot sale Ray


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## Dogslow (Sep 14, 2021)

I stopped looking at the price of new cars because the price to buy is un attainable for me.Do you remember back in the day you could get a 12 month loan interest free to help buy your car.then it became 3 years interest free.Then they dropped the "year" comment and now it's 60 MONTHS.I used to be in the car game for over 30 years.Since Carmageddon which started in 2008 manufacturers have put up the price of new cars every year without fail.To the point now I would presume they no longer sell cars. They now use a new idea PCP where you basically rent the car for a few years then when you are confronted with the balloon payment you fit the bum cork.
Do you remember an English car maker called MG.That name MG was bought by the chinese and I didnt realise that MG sold more new vehicles in the UK in 2021 than HONDA UK.

ON the electric vehicle front I look at my LWB Mercedes Sprinter 314 CDI.It is a large cube van but actual payload keeping within its 3.5 ton gross is not very good at all.I wonder how small the payload of a LWB Sprinter would be in Electric battery mode.
I think the Chinese are going to be the electric car manufacturer for the world I like the look of the ORA CAT model, even priced at about £25,000 I will have my eye on one I won't ever get my Bottom in one.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes fossil fuel cars have all increased in price quite considerably the last 3 years. Where we were looking at a new T-Roc at €30k. The same model today is €36k. 
So we started looking at second hand and most under €30k are about 100,000 kms.

Ray.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Good thread Kev, nice one.

I have a number of issues with getting an electric car at the moment.

- In my minds eye I am waiting until they can do 500 miles on a charge...which is just a round figure I have plucked out of nowhere tbh.

- We live in a very rural area so would want a 4 wheel drive one able to do the above.

- I am also waiting until the number of charging points increases dramatically plus campsites have charging/fast charging facilities or even allow cars to be charged.

- It concerns me that we have a headlong rush to get battery vehicles but do not have the energy producing capacity to service them all. Announcements yesterday help as long as they come to fruition.

- Am I right in thinking that the batteries need replacing every so often? Manufacturer's only warrant them for a certain time period. They would be expensive to replace.

- I don't like to buy new cars but would be unhappy buying a second hand electric one not knowing the state of the batteries.

- They are very expensive to buy currently (sorry!). I feel that something has to be done on price if this country is to meet the governments aims on phasing out (sorry again!) petrol/diesel vehicles.

When all said and done I may consider a Hybrid as our next car or the one after that but will have to see how infrastructure etc evolves for me to commit to a full blown electric one.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes G, hybrids are a half way house into EVs. But with the excessive cost and battery rarely going more than 25 miles it's a very expensive and limited vehicle.

Ray.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Must ask my brother, in the States, who can well afford a Tesla why he got a Toyota petrol engine recently.

Would also be interesting to know what their fuel prices are like.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Range concerns me too. I also wonder whether it's possible for the remaining range given by the computer in the car to be accurate, and more to the point, to remain accurate as a battery ages and capacity falls off.

I am also bothered about the life of batteries and their cost, as well as the availability of enough fast charge points. It seems to me that currently it is hard enough to park your fossil fuelled car in a city even though any space will do. How much more difficult to find a space where there's a charge point available?

I have this vision of EVs being abandoned all over the place as they run out of power and of city streets criss crossed with cables. People will unplug other people's cars to charge their own and will be double parked all over the place getting a quick charge. People who have plenty of charge left will top up just to be sure using charge points they didn't really need and excluding those who do have the need.

How will recovery be paid for? If it's included in insurance it may see big rises in premiums because I think the need to be recovered will increase greatly. It won't be the rarity it is now.

How will all the injury claims for tripping over cables be dealt with?

I'm fairly sure that on it's own switching over to EV's will be a recipe for chaos. The number of vehicles commuting to cities also needs to be reduced and/or very much better managed.


There may be several solutions but in these days of connectivity I feel sure that journeys can be managed end to end in a dynamic way so that you are sent along the best available route using the best available means, public transport included, parking included, charging included, timings accommodated and costs optimised.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Like Graham, we live in a rural area and everything is a drive away. Even then the local town may not have everything you need so trips further afield are necessary. No one realises until they leave the cities to live here how reliant we are on cars. Of course it could change but there is no will to provide a shuttle bus service to local towns where there could be connecting bus services to go further afield. I love bus travel and often, in pre Covid times, took the bus into Norwich rather than the car. Local Council have introduced parking charges for long stays in the main car park that will probably put a stop to that now.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Good points made Pat/Alan

We have 1 bus at 10.15am and the return gets back at 3.15pm. It goes into Carmarthen, where tbh, you wouldn't want to spend a whole day every time you need to go in there for anything.

Like Alan - I also have concerns over charging. I think the tech needs to improve dramatically on charging capability. Unless streets have inlaid chargers where cars drive over them and park, I cant see how all the folks without driveways/garages will be able to safely charge up without cable spaghetti.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

We've were both brought up out of town and apart from a short time many years ago have always lived in the countryside . We also rely on cars, but I'd be happy enough to park out of town and use public transport under some conditions.


Foremost it would have to be easily done. I don't see why an app can't guide you step by step.

It would have to be convenient, without too much time spent outside or waiting. No body wants to turn up to an appointment wet, frozen or exhausted having had to walk a long way.

It would have to be reliably punctual. 

If we want people to take it up it would need to be low cost, or better still free of charge. It would probably be popular then. Perhaps it could be partly funded by charging those people who still opt to take cars into congested areas in preference to using public transport.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I suspect part of the problem over here is that these services were all privatised but with only lip service paid to rural routes which are not cost effective to run. Unfortunately these rural routes are the life blood of some communities and provide the only means for some folks to go out and about, shopping etc. in some case it may also be the only people they would speak to over a number of days.

In our experience of travelling in countries where the state runs/subsidises public transport we have always been impressed.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Don't even know why public transport is being discussed, never going to happen out of town, no will, no money, no way.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> Don't even know why public transport is being discussed, never going to happen out of town, no will, no money, no way.


I accept that. Which is why I'm advocating out of town parking with good transport links into the town.

I can think of several very useful Park and Ride services.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Public transport has to be part of the discussion though as good provision of it will take vehicles off the road and hence lessen the burden on finding charging points for example.

Totally agree though: P&R are great schemes when properly funded and used.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

We sometimes use the park and ride, mainly York and Chester, but people who shop in supermarkets around here either come in a car or get a taxi home, our Asda is the only one which even has a bus stop outside.

There was even a report the other day that buses would no longer run around one of the big council estates for fear of being attacked.

https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co...yorkshire-645-bus-refuses-enter-ravenscliffe/


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

My first wife was a chartered Civil engineer and specialised in Integrated Transport and it is precisely these kind of issues that were dealt with. Buses not stopping at/near shop like supermarkets is ridiculous.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I shall double check my comments actually just to be sure to be sure ; ')


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Supermarkets and others will have to deliver heavy or bulky items foc to encourage people to leave cars at home. Online shopping is the future but it needs improving.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> I shall double check my comments actually just to be sure to be sure ; ')


So that's the Welsh and the Irish so far this morning Kev. Any more? :grin2:

Don't forget the porridge gobblers....


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Sainsburys, Iceland and Aldi or Farm Foods & Morrisons do not have a bus stop.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Don't need to now you did it for me.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

erneboy said:


> Supermarkets and others will have to deliver heavy or bulky items foc to encourage people to leave cars at home. Online shopping is the future but it needs improving.


We have tried online grocery shopping, it's really good and competitive around here, but it just doesn't work, (I think you have to pay now too) wrong items, substitutions we didn't like, not coming in the time slots.

We tend to do the shopping when we have to go elsewhere so we use the car anyway, and even if there was a bus stop at the supermarket, there isn't one near home.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

GMJ said:


> So that's the Welsh and the Irish so far this morning Kev. Any more? :grin2:
> 
> Don't forget the porridge gobblers....


And anyway, My dad was NI, my mother was Geordie Scottish and Welsh (she was always a bit odd) so I'm pretty safe in me mind, what's left of it.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> We have tried online grocery shopping, it's really good and competitive around here, but it just doesn't work, (I think you have to pay now too) wrong items, substitutions we didn't like, not coming in the time slots.
> 
> We tend to do the shopping when we have to go elsewhere so we use the car anyway, and even if there was a bus stop at the supermarket, there isn't one near home.


It's stupid completely inappropriate substitutes that bother me most too. But I think that could largely be overcome if orders were picked as they were received. Years ago when we had a retail business we faxed our weekly shopping list through to a local independent supermarket on a Thursday evening for delivery on Saturday morning and hardly ever had a substitution because they picked immediately.

I know that this and public transport aren't entirely to do with EVs but if those of us who don't like shopping didn't feel that the results are better when we do it in person and if public transport generally met our needs better our use of cars might fall.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

It's to the side of the topic trolleybuses are back and we have electric trams in some cities.


With regard to EVs though I specifically chose the one in the OP as it gets around the range anxiety if the infrastructure was in place and it would need to be really if it was going to happen here, prices are high but I suppose it's still in the early adopters phase so should come down, as for others I've read that there is a market for ex EVs batteries in homes if you have solar, the voltage is up to 600v so more than adequate to run a house off grid so if the will is there it could be a winner and offset the cost of having a new battery.


It's all early days yet.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

You'd need an impractically large solar installation and number of very expensive batteries to run a house off grid in the UK, or another, reliable, generating source.

Even here in sunny Spain we were far from self sufficient in March, a wet, dull month. We generated 469Kw and used 458.98. Assuming that lot was spaced out evenly we'd have needed 2 x 5Kw batteries at approx €4,500 each to have managed. But it wasn't so we'd still have needed a generator. Here we will have a considerable deficit for at least four months of the year. On a very dull day last month our 6Kw system produced only around 3Kwh, yet yesterday with the longer days and plenty of bright sun it produced around 36Kwh, against usage of 12. So even though in good conditions we may produce 3 or 4 times what we use we still won't meet our demand over many days in winter.


I can post the graphs if anyone wants to see them.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I think if we were to go off grid we'd have wind and solar, probable air/ground SHP, 12v lighting and as much low voltage stuff as possible we all know what we can do in a van wild camping so it's not impractical to do it in a house and use a decent inverter for washing machine etc, having a ex-Tesla or other battery would I think be a decent system, I've watched a lot of YT videos of such things and in the US it seems to work albeit on 110v

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/27512217...HhZEHUXbUFfPlnv5eaQb4u7SIhcjjCbxoC6e0QAvD_BwE


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

You still could not be sure to manage even with lots of battery storage, even 40 or more Kwh and even then you'd need a source of electricity that was reliably constant and didn't depend on weather conditions. The problem is that once you use what's in your batteries during winter you won't have spare to recharge them till the weather improves.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

You've not seen the wind we get here then Alan   most stuff would be okay just the big loads when and if there is sufficient power spare, and of course, this is not going to happen for us, too big an investment but if I was I'd also find a nice place on a hill with flowing water and have a hydropower system too so even in winter we'd be ok, possibly even better than summer.

Here's a chap who is not only doing it but selling the hydro system he's now making to the public, he's running a full workshop and house on free energy.

https://www.youtube.com/c/KrisHarbour/videos?view=0&sort=da&flow=grid


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes, hydro could take up the slack. Something has to.

We have famously wicked winds here but there are no turbines because the winds are infrequent and of such force that turbines would be shut down.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Solar will be the main supplier for most as we can't all live on a windy hill with a reliable stream on our property.

But this is mainly a EV car thread and they are coming in force already, I think the cut off date will have to get moved if only because of infrastructure and the need for fuel to existing vehicles such as anything that needs to be used all day every day.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Guy who came to do our windscreen yesterday told Chris that Tesla's are rubbish because they develop a lot of faults and no one knows how to fix them.

We have that stream running through our property (all piped underground now) which we often think we could use for hydro power. Living in flat old Norfolk, though, means it would be hard .


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

That Tesla comment is interesting Pat. One of my brothers bought one a few months ago and loved it then. He's a car nut, as am I, and he reckoned it was amazingly fast. I will make a point of asking about reliability.

He often commutes from Glasgow home to Thirsk by car on Friday evenings and I sometimes ring him for a chat as he goes. Last time I did we had to give up which he put down to a defect in the inbuilt car phone kit. I'll ask about reliability.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I think part of the Tesla problem is the dealer network in the UK is not to the standard of the US ones, but all cars have faults, if it has **** or wheels it's going to give you trouble as the saying goes, Teslas are great cars but Fugly.

There are currently 26 Tesla Locations in the UK, with 19 service centres - 16 of them have showrooms - and seven are retail-only. The new Tesla Centre in Aberdeen is now the most northerly for the firm in the UK.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

I think its worth noting that most fleet vehicles and service vehicles are replaced regularly anyway. We already have home delivery vans thar are pure electric. Give it 3 years and we will see far more electric busses, and postal vans, and amazon vans etc.
Range isn't the issue many believe it to be. The average UK car mileage per day is just 20 miles.
In London I've seen lamp posts modified to provide charging point to the kerb side.
There's a profit in providing charging points and we will see a rush to grab a slice of that market.
The battery development, weight and cost are the major limitations but there are promising developments happening.
We are looking at a small EV run around around the £30K Mark and for longer runs will just hire a car. Way cheaper that way.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Can't Tesla switch on/off features on your car from their HQ in the States? I guess its a good way of stopping them if they are stolen.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I think that feature was outlawed as it could cause accidents G.

A big thing in the states at the moment and going through the courts is the right to repair, Mac, Tesla, John Deere etc are all battling to stop owners from having access to repair manuals and special tools and also none dealer repairers, I'm not sure what the situation is in the UK.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

EV vehicles are mechanically way simpler and more reliable than fosil fuel cars.
The number of components is just way less. Look at a modern car engine and transmission. Thousands of parts. Any one failing and you can't drive.
An EV car is very few parts.
It's the computer side that is the complex part but most modern fosil fuel cars have complex computers as well.
So ultimately your car repairs are become IT tech support jobs less and less greasy hands on old school mechanics.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

They also catch fire too.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Good analysis of the true costs of EVs compared to fossil fueled cars has just finished on Radio 4. The series is called Sliced Bread. It'll be on listen again. Well worth hearing.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

erneboy said:


> We also rely on cars, but I'd be happy enough to park out of town and use public transport under some conditions.
> 
> Foremost it would have to be easily done. I don't see why an app can't guide you step by step.


I'm sure there will be an app Alan. Certainly there's one for the bus system in Belfast and it's very accurate. It will tell me when to leave the house in order to be at my destination by a certain time. That includes the walk to the bus stop, any walk for an interchange or at the end, the times of the buses.... It couldn't be easier.

(Except when you board a 1A instead of a 1E - or was it the other way round??!)


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Here's why an EV motor wins out on reliability.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I really like these but not the price.

https://www.2twentyscooters.com/?ca...SrDNvI4jaXbIJpczUYIkVokrcKGjNE1EaAi2LEALw_wcB

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Dunno why they have to be so spensive either.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

They are about 50% again more expensive but that compared to fuel versions that paid for their development decades ago.
New tech costs more as it recoups development costs.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

They should recoup it over time, makes more sense to do it that way and have a cheaper product that more people would buy.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> They should recoup it over time, makes more sense to do it that way and have a cheaper product that more people would buy.


Sadly it rarely works that way. Venture capitalists often put the money up and most demand immediate returns.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Given the cost of living crisis we are in now which shows no sign of abating. Also, given that even after the crisis has finished (do they ever finish??), it is highly unlikely that prices will go back down and nor will wages catch up, I can see this being a major hold up in electric vehicle domination of the market given their exorbitant cost to buy.

Folks will simply not be able to afford them.

The 2030 target seems an awfully long way off to my mind.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

But on the flip side fuel costs are now so expensive switching to electric makes even more sense.
We are just moving home and that will involve as many solar panels as we can fit and battery storage. Charging an EV car is ano brainer. So an EV car is also in the budget.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

EVs are not for everyone Pat. They have to suit your lifestyle. Several friends with EVs also have a fossil fuel second car for when the EV is not practical.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Pat-H said:


> But on the flip side fuel costs are now so expensive switching to electric makes even more sense.
> We are just moving home and that will involve as many solar panels as we can fit and battery storage. Charging an EV car is ano brainer. So an EV car is also in the budget.


I'd not even bother unless I had 3 phase (cuts charging time by a factor of three) or if we never went more than into town, most cannot afford to run a second car, running a first car is expensive enough nowadays.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Charging on solar won't be overly wonderful on cloudy days.

I've looked at numerous so called solar calculators on installers web sites and most seem a bit optimistic or at best to be using info assuming a south coast house with a south facing roof and in a very cloud free year.

I'm sure there are solar forums where people post actual figures.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

But few need to fully charge their EV everyday.
Who domestically, and drives 200+ miles a day everyday?
They estimate the average EV home car will cost around £30 per month in charge. So even without solar its a saving.
The winter will be the worst time for sure but based on the our calculations our proposed panels will easily cover the car charging and more in summer months.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Our concerns regarding range are that we regularly go up to Gloucestershire to visit the FiL. That's a 150 miles there and another 150 back. We stay at a campsite. We have a choice of several, none of which are tooled up for car charging. When we are up there we use the car every day for visiting friends etc. 

I am not sure that an electric car would be a good option for us presently especially as my wife suffers from anxiety and range anxiety would not be something that I would want to be added to her list of woes at the present time.

Also because of where we live we would need a 4x4 as the roads get pretty bad in winter.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Pat-H said:


> But few need to fully charge their EV everyday.
> Who domestically, and drives 200+ miles a day everyday?
> They estimate the average EV home car will cost around £30 per month in charge. So even without solar its a saving.
> The winter will be the worst time for sure but based on the our calculations our proposed panels will easily cover the car charging and more in summer months.


All true for most people normally Pat but things happen, family issues and you have to visit somewhere distant every day, or say you decide to tour somewhere, stuffed unless where you stay has a charger which fits your car, all kinds of issue.

Don't get me wrong I'm pro EV as I started this thread but there are going to be issues for 5-10 years yet.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

I suspect that we may be looking at a hybrid maybe for the next car (or the one after that) and I also suspect that the 2030 thing will be amended to include/allow for these.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

We expect to travel some distance every now and then but hire cars seem to be the easiest solution.
And I think they will still be viable for some years.
But I think things will adapt mu H faster than we expect.
The likely hood is efforts to slow global warming will be hindered by the impact of the pandemic.
And that will accelerate global warming problems.
I can't imagine how phasing out fossil fuels will be politically viable as the cost of the delays mounts up.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I suppose even hire cars will eventually be all EV too, so not an ongoing to solution and it would pi$$ me off no end to have to hire a car when I had one sat at home doing nothing.

Hybrid in the short term with fines for using the ICE in town.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

I'm avoiding hybrids. They are the worst of both worlds. Still all the mechanical servicing requirements of a normal car but with limited battery capacity all adding to a lot more weight.
I'll stick with petrol and then go to pure EV.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Good point Pat, however almost to a man all the taxis around our town use the Toyota Prius, even though there are no charges, it's just cheaper to run even moreso now, they will only do around 25 miles on a charge but around town that's possibly half a day of cheap running for a taxi.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Hybrids had their place and for some reason will do for a while.
But it was a compromise to move towards pure EV.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

They are still making them though I think, but really we need to move away from batteries and get more development into Hydrogen, and establish a network of filling stations, it might be possible for the filling stations to actually create the fuel themselves if they can support enough solar or wind power or the cost come down if this became possible then the roads would be safer as no tankers needed.

https://www.cummins.com/news/2022/01/27/hydrogen-internal-combustion-engines-and-hydrogen-fuel-cells


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)




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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

But batteries are big business now Kev. 50 years ago when all we had was a couple of U2 batts in the torch and now everything is battery powered or back up.
I have a drawer of spares and there must be 20 different types. 

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Not good for the planet though or the people who have to make them.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

I've seen that you can now buy solar battery packs made from old EV car batteries. 
Cheaper than new battery units but lower capacity. But a great way of making EV batteries more useful beyond their car life.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

They'd want to be pretty much free to make financial sense. Solar with batteries really only makes sense for people who want or need to be off grid. And for it to work in winter they need a very big solar installation so as to have the capacity to cope with normal demand and charge batteries at the same time, all of which is required during short winter days mostly with low solar yield due to cloud.

I know that even here in sunny Spain our 6kw installation would not have the excess to charge batteries for four months of the year, yet for the rest of the year it yields many times more than we need. We could charge batteries now but since our excess goes to the grid and we can call some of it back buying batteries makes no sense.

Today for example we have yielded 38kwh so far and are still getting 3.3. We did the washing today and have the hot tub running and we've used 14kwh.

On a winters day we might yield just one or two kwh over the entire day. In March we yielded 469 and used 485. In Feb we yielded 541 and used 428. In Jan we yielded 505 and used 615. In December we yielded 375 and used 592.

The obvious conclusion is that we can't generate enough to charge batteries at times of year when we would particularly need them and that if we wanted to do so we would have to increase the size of our installation considerably. That investment plus buying batteries would be very substantial, perhaps twice what we've already invested.

We estimate that we will recoup our current investment in under five years.

Anyone going for solar should do the numbers on batteries vary carefully. I know solar companies are promoting them. One of my brothers had a "consultant" call with him in Yorkshire. This man recommended a 4kw installation with a battery. That would be effective for only around 6 months of the year even here in Spain, I guess there's good profit in batteries.


Edit: I wanted a battery, but the young installer here took the time to talk me out of it. He could have sold me 10kwh of batteries with no difficulty at all.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Investing in renewal energy can't be based on "cost effective" to do so dooms us to irreversible climate change.
We expect to spend more than we will get back.
But it helps in our little way.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Edit: I wanted a battery, but the young installer here took the time to talk me out of it. He could have sold me 10kwh of batteries with no difficulty at all.[/QUOTE]

How did the installer talk you out of batteries. Our, very clued up, guy intimated that it would make sense for us to have battery power. We have 14 kw of solar panels. We are awaiting a visit to discuss batteries and how we manage our surplus.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

He pointed out that at the time of year I really needed we would not have the capacity to charge them. You can see that from the figures I gave.

Do you have a record of what yield your 14Kw gives during the winter Pat? I'd guess that on the basis that we have a lot of winter sun you get much the same as we do. Can you check?


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

I only have a total figure of 17759.89 kwh. That is from installation on 24th December to today.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Really Pat, no error, over 17 thousand Kwh? No typo?

We have 2,200kwh for Jan. Feb and March.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Ooops! 1,772.59


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

So you get less than we do in winter.

January here was sunny, we got 506 kwh but even so we used more than we got 615kwh. 

We could charge batteries on some days in winter, as could you, but instead our excess generation goes into the grid for which they pay us. Then when it gets dark we take from the grid and them pay for it.

I don't know how that part works in England.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Same here though we haven't had time to investigate it properly. Can't get hold of our solar engineer for love or money at the moment. Octopus have not sent us a bill yet to I assume they are happy?
We did have an awful lot of cloud at one point. Been too busy to take too much notice. We also suffer from a copse of trees near us that the sun struggles to clear until nearly midday in the winter. Shade is the enemy of solar.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

On the UK the electric cost per KWh is around 20p or more. What they pay you for feed in power is about 20% of that.
Hence it makes sense to store excess rather than sell it on for a fraction of what it costs to buy it back.
With batteries there is also the option to buy at night cheap to charge and then use in the day. Particularly effective in winter.
Yes shadows on your panels is a big issue.
The older panels (in series) are seriously impacted by even part of one panel in shade. The newer installations tend to parallel up the panels so that's less of an issue.
You also need a house with the right orientation. I see lots of panels on either East or West faces as they have no south face.
Which ensures less than half the ability to catch the sun.
Our new place has plenty of directly south facing roof and we plan a carport for the MH which will also be south facing. All bungalows nearby and no trees so nothing to block the sun.

I've also read articles on using your EV battery as a store. So again excess into the EV battery from solar or cheap overnight. Being drawn out if needed in the day.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Of course the real crime is the governments deliberately poor Green initiatives. The lack of incentives to have people insulate their homes has robbed us the oppertunity to provide an industry doing that and left us with housing stock and heating solutions that waste so much energy. With the energy criss ramping up we are paying dearly for that shortsighted policy choice.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Just to get back on track with EVs, I just came across this.

https://www.mobilityhouse.com/int_e...wltp-for-electric-car-new-test-procedure.html


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Pat-H said:


> On the UK the electric cost per KWh is around 20p or more. What they pay you for feed in power is about 20% of that.
> Hence it makes sense to store excess rather than sell it on for a fraction of what it costs to buy it back.
> With batteries there is also the option to buy at night cheap to charge and then use in the day. Particularly effective in winter.
> Yes shadows on your panels is a big issue.
> ...


Factor in the cost of storage. Also factor in that your battery will hold just a few Kwh. If you have a 10kw system as the other Pat does, or here a 6kw one as I do you can't do anything other than send a great deal of power into the grid at certain times of the year. Yesterday we sent 31kwh to the grid and the day before we sent 24. That figure will grow day by day for the next number of months. We are paid only a percentage or what electricity costs us too but we export much more than we import so that we more than covers the cost of what we buy.

Let's assume I can buy and install 10kw of storage for £5,000, which I can't, but regardless if I could I would not have the spare to charge it during many winters days, even if I doubled my current installation from 6kw to 12. Even then my stored power would last me less than one winters day. When we have a cloudy week I will have benefitted one day's electricity from having storage, but even in a bright winter week I will not have a daily excess which would charge the batteries.

But of course I won't double my installation because at the size it now is I will generate several times what I use each year and I will only be paid for exporting up the the cost of what I buy in.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Do you have the option to charge your storage off peak at much lower cost?
That seems to be a key factor in making batteries more effective. Especially in the winter.

In the UK a 6kwh system can earn you an estimated £150 feeding back to the grid.
I guess if you had a 12KWh system you'd have more than double that excess but even so what you earn back is very small. 
So it seems to make sense to have enough capacity to store excess in the day to cover the non daylight time you'd be drawing off the grid. Especially with grid prices rocketing. 
Our plan is to log our power usage over time so we can accurately see what we typically use over summer and winter months. How that matches with tarrif timeslots. 
We can then better spec the panel size needed and the value of storage. 
But as I said before I'm not expecting it to be cost effective. The aim is to reduce our usage off the grid. Even if it costs more.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Pat-H said:


> Do you have tge option to charge your storage off peak at much lower cost?
> That seems to be a key factor in making batteries more effective. Especially in the winter.


Yes I could do that but it would not make economic sense for us because over the course of a billing period our generation will average out so that we will almost always export enough to pay for most if not all of what we import anyway.

For us adding a battery would increases our costs and add complexity.

How much storage do you want Pat?


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)




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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

I won't know until we have logged our usage. But we are planning on more than 6KWh of solar capacity. I've budgeted for 12K but think it will be nearer 10K
I've budgeted £5K which would buy about 8KWh of battery storage.
But the key is to know what and when we use energy.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

The Renault EV does seem rather noisy and lacking in windows.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Which one, be pacific Ray.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

The Megane you posted above Kev. Plus imho there are far too many distractions in the way of buttons, knobs, controls and dials. It's become a techy toy.

Ray.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Tech in cars is here to stay. Remember the future is the computer driving anyway.
The ability to supply back to the grid is useful.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

raynipper said:


> The Megane you posted above Kev. Plus imho there are far too many distractions in the way of buttons, knobs, controls and dials. It's become a techy toy.
> 
> Ray.


Not meaning to be rude Ray honestly, but do you have any learning difficulties, I have ADD, but also like tech (bummer) so I know what you mean but it's here to stay and you don't have to use all of it.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

kiss is my motto Kev. Plus it was very noisy and I'm deaf.? Plus it's a Renault. Great all the time it's under warranty but heaven help you when it runs out.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Odd, I didn't find it noisy at all, certainly no worse than the average diesel car, not a fan or Renault either, had three, two vans and a car all absotively ****e.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

You will also need to know how much you will generate and when you won't.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I do like the idea of recycling ex EV battery cassettes but to buy bespoke for a house seems counterproductive and adds to the problem.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

erneboy said:


> You will also need to know how much you will generate and when you won't.


I can probably rig a small solar panel with a load on it and log that voltage to give me a matching sunlight availability log.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Wouldn't weather stats over a number of winters do?


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

erneboy said:


> Wouldn't weather stats over a number of winters do?


Be a good guide.
I think some the solar calculators do that as part of their calculations.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Or you could say stuff it and have this instead, quite a few around at similar money.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304449458315?hash=item46e29a108b:g:hmAAAOSwMJdiXSYa


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yeah but just try opening that vast door in Tesco's car parks.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Why would you be slumming it in a Tesco carpark Ray? Waitrose at least and park away from the doors.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Cos I'm cheap Kev. You said so yerself.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I think money was made round to go round, spend the bugger, you could be dead tomorrow.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Wot about that rainy day?
And when the bills come in I can say 'Kev said'.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

How much rain are you expecting? how much time do you think you have left?


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> I think money was made round to go round, spend the bugger, you could be dead tomorrow.


That used to be the case but the wealthy now just accumulate for the sake of it. As do some of the bigger corporations like Apple.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> How much rain are you expecting? how much time do you think you have left?


12 years and then I will take stock.

Ray.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Currently they recon an electric vehicle saves you £600 per year over a petrol car. That on 6K miles a year.
Still not enough to be financially viable but of course its not just about cost in money.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I thought I'd chuck this in here, I bought one of these as an ex jam sandwich car, oodles of miles but ran perfectly.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)




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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...n-batteries-can-perform-better-than-new-ones/


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

This is interesting as we have discussed home use of batteries from EVs, this is a new install so a bit different.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

Fascinating Kev. We have a large array of solar panels on the roof. I did not know that you could have them on those tubs/boxes to avoid planning problems. 
We do not, at the moment, have any batteries but those were very interesting. We know that Tesla make batteries for solar storage that can be fitted in a garage but our electrician told us there were cheaper ones. It all gets muddied by the fact that Octopus like to work with Tesla batteries and they pay the best rate for selling back to the grid. All very complicated so we have parked it for now.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

This one really tickles my fancy but I wonder just how much I would use it.

https://www.bricoprive.com/80407742...2adcKmKdEl5VmPiKOKk7TPvho7eSbTcsaAnsCEALw_wcB

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Handy for a run to the shops I suppose, I doubt it's legal in our nanny state.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Seems it is https://www.privatesportshop.co.uk/...-cool-electric-moped-1500w-certified-red.html

I wonder what the price is.


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## powerplus (Oct 6, 2014)

https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/electric-bikes-and-law-what-you-need-know


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I have seen several in Portugal and Spain. But €1,250 aint bad.

Ray.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> Seems it is https://www.privatesportshop.co.uk/...-cool-electric-moped-1500w-certified-red.html
> 
> I wonder what the price is.


Ray's original link has this
"WARNING ! Regarding the regulations, this model is classified among electric personal transport devices (EDP), in the same way as hoverboards, Segways and other monowheels. From a legal point of view, they are prohibited on public roads, both on sidewalks and on cycle paths or traffic lanes. Their use is authorized on private roads. "


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

The failure to engage with the growth of escooters and ebikes in the UK is a farce.
Travel into any town and a significant percentage of users are zipping around on them. On pavements and on the road. I've spoken to police officers on the beat who watch them passing and they won't take action unless they see recless behaviour (if they have anyway of actually catching them).

I wonder if there is a valid argument in court that the failure to apply the law by law enforcement undermines their ability to selectively apply it.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

raynipper said:


> This one really tickles my fancy but I wonder just how much I would use it.
> 
> https://www.bricoprive.com/80407742...2adcKmKdEl5VmPiKOKk7TPvho7eSbTcsaAnsCEALw_wcB
> 
> Ray.


Those wheels certainly look a lot more rugged and capable at handling the pot holes we have in the UK although I still wouldn't want to hit one at 15mph on it I have to say.:surprise:


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

jiwawa said:


> Ray's original link has this
> "WARNING ! Regarding the regulations, this model is classified among electric personal transport devices (EDP), in the same way as hoverboards, Segways and other monowheels. From a legal point of view, they are prohibited on public roads, both on sidewalks and on cycle paths or traffic lanes. Their use is authorized on private roads. "


I'd not be buying one anyway Jean, we have them zooming about enough already, they are a menace, and making them illegal in the UK was a wise move I think, what I didn't understand was it was okay to rent one, bonkers.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> I'd not be buying one anyway Jean, we have them zooming about enough already, they are a menace, and making them illegal in the UK was a wise move I think, what I didn't understand was it was okay to rent one, bonkers.


Agreed on that Kev. I seems to me that renting them in cities would ensure that lots of inexperienced riders would be whizzing around on them for fun. You couldn't come up with a better way to injure loads of people.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I did look into getting a couple for us, but the first time we left one outside a shop or café it'd magically disappear I reckon.


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## patp (Apr 30, 2007)

We seriously considered renting the electric scooters in the IOW as Chris could not make the hills. You needed and ap on your phone though so we just walked on by . It would be great to see them, or similar, available for helping the less mobile gain access to all areas.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Still looking for a lightweight folding wheelchair which will go through the hab door, 28kg seems to be the average weight, which between us should be manageable or womanageble


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

The theory behind the UK allowing rental escooters was by renting they know who you are and you have insurance cover.
But the solution shoukd just have been making personal insurance a legal requirement.
Making them illegal to own and ride as opposed to rent just means everyone breaks the law and if someone is injured by one there is no insurance cover.
You can't reverse that technology or wind back time you have to adapt and adjust. It's madness to have an explosion of E transport that's technical illegal because the government can't find a way to manage it.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

And over to tranny vans, interesting bit @9:00


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Yes interesting re diving licenses.
But the energy companies are undermining the savings of e vehicles. It makes sense to charge at night so you can now get e-vehicle tariffs that are cheaper at night. Sounds good but they then whack the day tariff to more than double the normal 24hr tariff.

If you have plenty of solar panels you can avoid the day time tariff in the summer (but get clobbered in the winter) and then get cheaper electric in the evening.
But in the winter you get hit with the day tariff rate.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Pat-H said:


> Yes interesting re diving licenses.
> But the energy companies are undermining the savings of e vehicles. It makes sense to charge at night so you can now get e-vehicle tariffs that are cheaper at night. Sounds good but they then whack the day tariff to more than double the normal 24hr tariff.
> 
> If you have plenty of solar panels you can avoid the day time tariff in the summer (but get clobbered in the winter) and then get cheaper electric in the evening.
> But in the winter you get hit with the day tariff rate.


No, they're road vehicles not subrmarines Pat


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

One for sale here

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224939283622?hash=item345f6d14a6:g:uKwAAOSw-kJiWYid


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Not an EV but a good move forward for IC engines in the future by Cummins.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...debuts-a-15-liter-hydrogen-engine-188876.html

Cummins Refines Its Fuel-Agnostic Engine Platform, Debuts a 15-Liter Hydrogen Engine
Home > News > Technology16 May 2022, 13:13 UTC · by Cristian Agatie author pic
Cummins made clear its hydrogen ambitions last year when it announced the development of hydrogen-fueled combustion engines. We found out that Cummins was working on adapting the combustion chambers and cylinder heads for optimized hydrogen burning. Soon, the engine behemoth unveiled the concept of a fuel-agnostic engine platform, able to burn any fuel with minor modifications. Now, Cummins is ready with a production version of a 15-liter hydrogen-fueled engine.
Cummins debuts a 15-liter hydrogen engine
7 photos
Cummins jumps on the hydrogen ICE bandwagon, it's getting seriousCummins jumps on the hydrogen ICE bandwagon, it's getting seriousCummins jumps on the hydrogen ICE bandwagon, it's getting seriousCummins jumps on the hydrogen ICE bandwagon, it's getting seriousHydrogen Truck Concept RenderingCascadia Truck
The ever more stringent environmental regulations have pushed vehicle manufacturers to look for solutions to cut greenhouse gases (GHG). Electric vehicles look promising for consumer applications, but heavy-duty scenarios require a more adequate solution. That's where the hydrogen might prove useful, either by using it in fuel cells to produce electricity or by burning it directly in an internal combustion engine.

Cummins has decided to go all-in with hydrogen and started development with fuel-cell-powered vehicles as well as hydrogen-powered internal combustion engines. The latter is said to be a drop-in replacement for diesel and gas engines, requiring only minor modifications to run on hydrogen. Cummins being so far ahead in the internal combustion game naturally favors the hydrogen-powered ICEs. Its fuel-agnostic engine platform provides plenty of flexibility, allowing Cummins to move fast toward the first commercially-available hydrogen engine.

The 15-liter version of the hydrogen engine that Cummins debuted at ACT Expo in Long Beach, California will be ready for mass production in 2027. A smaller, 6.7-liter version of this engine will also be available soon, enabling the industry to reduce the GHG emission "yet this decade". The two engines are built upon Cummins' fuel-agnostic platform, where below the head gasket the engines have largely similar components, and above the head gasket, each has different components for different fuel types.

"Our customers are responding favorably to this practical technology," said Jim Nebergall, General Manager, Hydrogen Engines at Cummins. "These engines look like engines, they sound like engines, and fit where engines normally fit."

Advances in hydrogen generation mean greener, more affordable hydrogen will soon become available to the transportation companies. This development will allow the industry to choose whatever technology suits them on the path to decarbonization, without worrying about costs.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

not a good


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I would love one of these. I had a sit on one (the model before) when I bought my Piaggio last year. I bet they are lot of fun as the 0-60 time is 3 seconds. Zero FXE 7.2

Only 75 mile range though but that one is quite light at 135kg. Almost light enough for the back of a motorhome or motorhome garage. The trouble is with a lot of the scooters is they are still quite heavy and the lighter they are generally the less range you have. I cant see how they would work with a motorhome unless you were on hookup every night.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Nah, sorry, commuter bikes at best, you gorra have a zorst n ya gorra have gears, for me going fast is a small part of biking, the noise the smells the mechanics all part of it.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> Nah, sorry, commuter bikes at best, you gorra have a zorst n ya gorra have gears, for me going fast is a small part of biking, the noise the smells the mechanics all part of it.


You could just stick some carboard in the spokes like you did when you were a kid on yer Chopper! 

The noise would be odd I agree but having got used to scooters both little and hooligan size I love having an automatic bike. The big scoot is a total hoot and you are always in the right gear at the right time. I imagine this will be the same just twice as quick.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Tight arse we used lolly sticks but you had to only put them in one side or you could come a cropper.


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## powerplus (Oct 6, 2014)

Hi all 

I have a loan vauxhall corsa that is electric it goes well but no fun to drive maybe ok for a wife to run the kids to school


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Sacre bleu mate.


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## powerplus (Oct 6, 2014)

Hi kev i never knew you were bi lingual


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I can tell you to foxtrot oscar in many languages including sign language



















There is another way which is more graphic but can't find it on Google, but it's basically bringing your right fist down on top of your left fist both with thumbs up, and then you slap your right hand palm down on the still thumbs up left fist and slide it off rapidly, so the image is that you have flattened something between you fists F then you have brushed it away O.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

powerplus said:


> Hi kev i never knew you were bi lingual


He's a cunning linguist!


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

In my 20s one of my friends was deaf-mute, and he taught me a few things mostly forgotten now as he was killed in the 80s I still recall most of the alphabet so could probably make myself understood.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Myself and 2 friends learned the signing alphabet when we we were around 11 years old so we could talk in class without making a nose. It was a bit of fun while it lasted.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I watched a video reviewing the new Kia Sportage today. The presenter couldn't have been more enthusiastic and admitted she had actually bought one.

(539) "The new Kia Sportage is so good, I bought one": REVIEW - YouTube 

But the review was mainly about it's style and buttons which left me cold as neither appealed to me. But then she was of the younger generation where style and buttons mean far more than practicality and reliability. Priced 'FROM' £40k. apart from the 7 year warranty it left little to recommend it imho.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Yes she is a bit crap, easy on the eye but too much style and bugger all substance, it's what you get with a lot of younger presenters, Johnny Smith off the late brake show is much better, 5th gear is also good.

He's not done that model yet.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

raynipper said:


> I watched a video reviewing the new Kia Sportage today. The presenter couldn't have been more enthusiastic and admitted she had actually bought one.
> 
> (539) "The new Kia Sportage is so good, I bought one": REVIEW - YouTube
> 
> ...


Why have cars got so lardy and ugly looking? What happened to the sleek sporty looking coupes we used to have in the 90s? £40k for a feckin "Kia"! Jeesaz! Arent they the equivalent of supermarket own brand basics? You could buy a ten year old 911 for that!


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Take the mini (please) some are now the size of a Range Rover Sport ffs.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes Baz but models getting larger have always been with us since the 50s.
I'm trying to get away from the larger SUV and downsize to the VW T-Roc which is similar in footprint to our current Golf. But again the new prices and bluddy tech have escalated the price to another €40k.  

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Buying used does save a lot of dosh, ex hire vehicles always have better prices too as people assume they've had a hard life, but so long as Mr Bingo hasn't driven it, it should be fine.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Another test of the EV in the OP, featuring JP and VBH


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Amazing but what an expensive hulk. It's more toy than transport.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

The cost is the thing, also if you buy an ICE car, with regular servicing it will last forever if you can get part and it doesn't rust away, this at some point in its life will need a new battery as they have a finite life no matter how well you look after it.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Makes me wonder if it isn't a big master plan to part us from even more of our savings.
Our last two diesel cars lasted 20+ years and still got sold on. Think of the payments to lease a car over 20 years and have noting at the end.

Ray.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> Buying used does save a lot of dosh, ex hire vehicles always have better prices too as people assume they've had a hard life, but so long as Mr Bingo hasn't driven it, it should be fine.


A lot of Dosh indeed! I no longer need a car really other than from doing the odd local journeys so when my trusty Golf diesel finally started to fall apart I bought (in some desperation I might add) a tiny Hyundai i10 which I have never really liked but it refuses to die. Ive had it four or five years now and no matter how hard I try it still keeps going. I cant remember what I paid for it but it was about three and a half grand or something. I think I paid £1800 for the Golf in 2007/8 as an extra runaround and it was bullet proof for ten years until all of a sudden it started to give up. I had some nice motors when I did a fair few miles and wanted a bit of speed and luxury but it would be a total waste of money now buying something decent just to run into Barney, Richmond or the odd trip to the Lakes. The little Hyundai wins hands down here though round some of the narrow lanes where the lardy Chelsea tractors often get stuck if something comes the other way.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

The Tesla looks like it's been punched in the face, and it's too expensive and from various sources, it's pretty boring. I much prefer either of the other two.


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

I quite like that Ionic5 but the range of EVs is still worrying for me.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Why's that Ratty


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Portugal would be risky as would some of our day jaunts. I read "Range Anxiety" is a big concern to many. Apart from the price.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

DOH!!, I was thinking you meant the range of cars available, sorry Ray I had one of your daft moments


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

They are getting better though. This merc will do 453 miles apparently which is almost twice as far as my Hyundai will go on a full tank although I bet the Merc wont do 453 miles with me driving it. Bit dear though. Pure-electric Mercedes EQS saloon on sale now from £99,995 | Auto Express

Bargain basement, this Hyundai will do 300 miles if you get the bigger battery but I would rather stick pins in my eyes than spend £40k on a Hyundai. New 2021 Hyundai Ioniq 5: UK prices and specs confirmed | Auto Express


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

barryd said:


> They are getting better though. This merc will do 453 miles apparently which is almost twice as far as my Hyundai will go on a full tank although I bet the Merc wont do 453 miles with me driving it. Bit dear though. Pure-electric Mercedes EQS saloon on sale now from £99,995 | Auto Express
> 
> Bargain basement, this Hyundai will do 300 miles if you get the bigger battery but I would rather stick pins in my eyes than spend £40k on a Hyundai. New 2021 Hyundai Ioniq 5: UK prices and specs confirmed | Auto Express


it might do 435 miles, but what about how long it will take to charge, how long do you want to sit on a fast charge point? all night, or how about you charge it at your hotel 30 hours? maybe if they don't have a fast charger.

"Mercedes’s 400-volt architecture can also accommodate up to 200kW DC rapid charging, meaning a 10 to 80 per cent charge for the 107.8kWh battery only takes 31 minutes. To put that into perspective, that’s 186 miles of driving range added every 15 minutes." but how many of those are there out there and it still needs to be available when you want it.

No, not for us unless the price drops like a stone which it will when they finally understand that a hydrogen ICE engine is the only real way to go.


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## barryd (May 9, 2008)

I guess its a long enough range for someone who does a chunk of miles each day to maybe consider though. I would have thought a home charger could be fitted to make sure its topped up to full overnight and it has enough range to get you where you want to go and back on a daily basis. It has enough range for me for probably a couple of weeks if not more.

Dunno much about them or the Hydrogen options only that I remember Top Gear saying Hydrogen was the way to go. I think you can top them up like petrol. Is it Betamax and VHS all over again? It seems the electric market is well established now though.

I doubt ill ever get one. Perhaps like yourself if the costs come down. I see no reason to shell out tens of thousands on a car now just for bombing into Richmond or Barnard castle or the odd trip with the Kayak over to Ullswater.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

One of the hidden costs of EV's is also that the batteries wont last for ever. Now I know that there are savings by using electric (which are being eroded as price goes up); and by lower servicing costs; however new batteries ain't cheap. 

It's not as if you would need a new engine for a petrol or diesel car after 8-10-12 years is it? (depending upon your driving style)


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Just watched this, not sure the dream will live up to reality for a proper MoHo though, Fancy a trip down to Spain in it?


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Looks like a fun project but they are limited to full hook up sites. I wondered about his vehicle insurance? Any modification to a standard vehicle must advise the insurance company.

Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I hope the brakes get uprated too.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Real-life on a Transit EV, not actually watched this yet, but it may have some bearing on future EV MoHos.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm just watching that Vintage Voltage program on TV and they're doing a 60s BMW Isetta 300, worth about 20k, they have a budget of 30 to 40k to convert it, they must really love it.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

lightyear 0 can drive for months without charging using solar-panel roof


‘lightyear’ shares that ‘lightyear 0’ can drive for up to two months in cloudy climates while up to seven months in sunnier countries.



www.designboom.com


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Fascinating Kev!


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

‘It keeps on going’: driving the world’s first production-ready solar car


Makers of the €250,000 Lightyear 0 hope to convince drivers it can be a viable climate-friendly alternative




www.theguardian.com


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

This 17-Year-Old Designed a Motor That Could Potentially Transform the Electric Car Industry


Robert Sansone's research could pave the way for the sustainable manufacturing of electric vehicles that do not require rare-earth magnets




www.smithsonianmag.com


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

He's a bright lad.


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## jiwawa (Jun 22, 2007)

Wow, I am in awe!


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

It gives us hope for a brighter future, he and others are going to need to be innovative to get us out of the ****e we have got ourselves into over the last 100 years or it'll be curtains for the human race.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Out of thin air: new solar-powered invention creates hydrogen fuel from the atmosphere


Researchers say their prototype produces hydrogen with greater than 99% purity and works in air as dry as 4% relative humidity




www.theguardian.com


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Local produce............................... Ray.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)




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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

We pre ordered the new Renault Megane E-tech. 280 mile range. Under £40K
We are having a large solar install so on the summer charging is cost free. 
We rarely do runs longer than 200 miles but if we do most modern cars will fast charge over 50% in less than 30 mins. So you can top up an extra 100 miles in a very short boost charge. 
Battery life needs to be managed but mostly its just that range reduces and in 10 years I'll be 70 and we will have sold the megane for something smaller. 
Mainly its less about the longer term savings as about being able to stop using fossil fuel. It's my grandchildren future I'm prepared to invest in.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

The other option we looked at was the Chinese MG EV. The cheaper than the Megane but build quality reflects that. But I'd rather spend my money with the French than the far East.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

The Chinese end up with a good chunk anyway so may as well save the money.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

That maybe so but no need to give it on a plate. I'm happy at least some will end up paying French car workers.


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)




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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

This won't help things...









Electric car charging costs nearing petrol prices for some - RAC


The RAC suggests the soaring cost of charging an electric car could soon put people off buying them.



www.bbc.co.uk


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

It hasn't put us off. But most of our EV charging will come via our solar.
Until the Tories workout a way to tax sunlight I should be ok.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

As I understand it here in Spain they had a tax on solar generation till a few years ago. The UK could do that.









Farewell to Spain’s solar tax


Solar sun tax in Spain has now been abolished which will ultimately boost the country’s energy transition. The Spanish Cabinet has approved a royal decree, which introduces a package of urgent measures to boost the country’s energy transition.




www.solarinspain.com


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

Pat-H said:


> It hasn't put us off. But most of our EV charging will come via our solar.
> Until the Tories workout a way to tax sunlight I should be ok.


All they have to is put a meter on it Pat


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

Then theres another problem in Florida...............
How To Evacuate With An Electric Vehicle - Videos from The Weather Channel 

Ray.


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## Pat-H (Oct 30, 2009)

Pudsey_Bear said:


> All they have to is put a meter on it Pat


No the Tories would award a contract to a mate to implement the scheme that's so complex to manage that the sun will just give up and go out...


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

According to Sky News, the cost of charging an electric vehicle has increased by 42% and is now approaching the cost of running a petrol engines vehicle. Oh dear, yet another brake on the removal of fossil fuel.









Cost of charging an electric car surges by 42% - with prices nearing the same as petrol


An electric car driver exclusively using rapid or ultra-rapid public chargers pays around 18p per mile for electricity, compared with roughly 19p per mile for petrol and 21p per mile for diesel, according to new figures.




news.sky.com


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

GMJ said:


> This won't help things...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Penquin said:


> According to Sky News, the cost of charging an electric vehicle has increased by 42% and is now approaching the cost of running a petrol engines vehicle. Oh dear, yet another brake on the removal of fossil fuel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pay attention 007 (Dave)...


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## Pudsey_Bear (Sep 25, 2008)

This is what a single AA lithium battery can do, kin scary.










Lithium is dangerous


Check out my main channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/NileRed-------------------------------------------This is just a regular energizer lithium battery, and ...




youtube.com


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