# Battery dead again



## prog54

Hi
when my last battery died and could not be charged I bought new one, August 2010 with 3 year warranty I also have a solar panel trickle charger which I put on every time the van is not used, went to move today and yes flat as a witches whatsit. do I now have to go and buy a charger and how do you measure if it's being charge by the trickle charger when idle.
Any advice please.
Regards
Terry


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## steco1958

On the panel that shows you the voltage of battery.

Is there a switch that you can select the vehicle battery to power your Hab lights.

If so, when selected the solar and the charger will charge the vehicle battery.

It is an either or situation, the charger will charge whatever battery is selected !!

Just read your post again, the advise above is if you have a fitted solar panel


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## neilanddot

Hi Terry
I was convinced that my van would not start as the battery didn't cope with being idle last winter. So I was astonished that after 5 weeks it fired up. All thanks to the solar charger! It has been very mild so you should not have too much of a problem.
Two things for you to check, first thing have the battery checked to know it is not dead. Secondly check that the connection from the solar charger is live e.g. if it is to the cigarette lighter, that it is live when the ignition is off or that it isn't part of the habitation circuit. I was so impressed with the solar charger, they really do work!
Good luck Neil


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## tonka

prog54 said:


> I also have a solar panel trickle charger which I put on every time the van is not used,


If it's one of those plug in and leave on the dashboard thing throw it in the bin they are not worth the bother.... The wattage is almost nil and you alarm is probably taking more power than those things produce..


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## prog54

Hi steco1958
the solar charger I have is an attachment I fit direct to the van battery when not in use and sits on the dash,
Up to now it seems to have worked (I think) but M/H not been used for 2 months and it is now flat.
I have asked the suppliers if there is any way to check if it is still working but not had reply yet.
I only seem to have an indicator for the leisure battery on the electrics panel
Regards
Terry


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## steco1958

prog54 said:


> Hi steco1958
> the solar charger I have is an attachment I fit direct to the van battery when not in use and sits on the dash,
> Up to now it seems to have worked (I think) but M/H not been used for 2 months and it is now flat.
> I have asked the suppliers if there is any way to check if it is still working but not had reply yet.
> I only seem to have an indicator for the leisure battery on the electrics panel
> Regards
> Terry


As said above, they can be ineffective, in the winter.

What I would do is make sure the radio and other items that draw current when the unit is not in use, are identified, these would be radio, alarm system, Status ariel.

Pull the fuses on the non important ones, when I was laying up, or get a larger wattage solar panel fitted, and ensure it charges both batteries

Check Solar with a 12v bulb simples


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## Rosbotham

I'm generally the one who comes on these threads and berates those who believe flat batteries are a fact of life, saying the cause should be investigated.

However, in this case I think you're being very optimistic in hoping that a van left for two months will fire up when you get back. 4-5 weeks yes, 8 (in my view ) is just too long. Your options are to fit a solar panel on the roof that charges both vehicle & leisure battery, or visit the van every 3 weeks or so & take it out for a drive. If you don't need a solar panel for any other reason, I'd go with the latter.

You could get one of those units for jumpstarting and let the battery go flat, but if you do that continually you're just going to muller the battery.

Paul


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## Oscarmax

Hi,

Had the same problem, buy a cheap solar panel on ebay, a solar cable from Sargent Electrics which will plug into your PSU, approximately £200 all in.


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## tonka

Oscarmax said:


> Hi,
> 
> Had the same problem, buy a cheap solar panel on ebay, a solar cable from Sargent Electrics which will plug into your PSU, approximately £200 all in.


Agree... Just bought kit for my new Autotrail.. 80w panel £115, Lead off Sargent £10, Mounting brackets £10, Cable entry £8 and Sikaflex £8... The new PSU units have capability to take the solar panel in direct.


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## gbtyke

I just plug in my mains lead every 3 or 4 weeks and give each battery a couple of days?


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## sallytrafic

I agree with most of the posters.

There are two things discharging your battery, self discharge and circuits that are still live.

Self discharge on a new battery will be only about 5% per month however on an old or abused battery it will be much higher.

Modern vehicles have a number of loads which are always on. For example a small part of it is always live awaiting a signal from your keyfob to open the van. The can bus system gradually shuts down over a period of time but average loads of 300mA to an Amp are often reported. 

It is worthwhile remembering that the basis for your MH is a commercial vehicle. A commercial vehicle is expected to be used at least 5 days a week and is designed that way so the designer didn't expect it to be idle for 8 weeks.

Lastly the type of small solar plug in panel (say 1.5W up to 5W) even in bright winter sunlight is insufficient to power these loads in a modern vehicle (even if the socket remains connected to the battery when the ignition is off).

My 130W panel which is shaded during the middle of the day won't keep my 260Ahr of habitation battery plus the vehicle battery totally topped up in December/January. After a week the habitation voltage has dropped to around 12.6V and my NASA battery monitor indicates that it is 85-90% full.


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## prog54

Hi Guys thanks for the replys
I'm not sure I understand tonka's or oscarmax's explanation.

gbtyke, are you saying that the direct mains connection will charge both my leisure and motor battery, I was under the impression that mains only charged the leisure and ran the fridge etc I can find no info that it charges the motor battery.

If I am to pull fuses what ones should I remove as I have no idea what is still dragging current, all appliances are off but I know something must still be connected.
I know the alarm is something that drags current but I thought the solar panel would have coped with that.

My 2002 Mohican is not as refined as the later mobile homes so I think a lot of the suggestions are not available to me.

Cheers
Terry


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## Rosbotham

prog54 said:


> Hi Guys thanks for the replys
> I'm not sure I understand tonka's or oscarmax's explanation.


On the newer Autotrails you can have a large solar panel installed, and the power supply has a direct input (just need to buy the relevant lead from Sargent, who make the power supply). However, that option isn't open for your generation of van, I think. So you'd still get a solar panel, but would have to get a regulator as well - the regulators aren't expensive and you can get ones which will charge both the leisure and vehicle batteries. However, as I said earlier, if you haven't felt the need to get a solar panel otherwise, this is an expensive option (few £hundred) versus simply driving the van a few miles every 3 or 4 weeks to charge the batteries.



prog54 said:


> gbtyke, are you saying that the direct mains connection will charge both my leisure and motor battery, I was under the impression that mains only charged the leisure and ran the fridge etc I can find no info that it charges the motor battery.


Again, I'm not entirely sure on your age of van, but on mine (2009) the selector on the control panel which determines which battery you're using to power appliances - vehicle or hab - also determines which battery receives the charge from the charger. However, this does vary between marques of motorhome, so could vary by age...it's quite possible that on yours the charger can't charge the vehicle battery (e.g. that is the case on Elddis Autoquests). Tonka's van that he's just selling is approx 2004/5, so he might know.



prog54 said:


> I know the alarm is something that drags current but I thought the solar panel would have coped with that.


Not convinced. In winter a solar panel might only be putting out 10-20% of its rated power. So if your's is 5W, that's 1W (while it's light, which is 1/3 of the time?), which is 80mA. Your alarm would be at least that, probably more...so when it's light it may keep up, but most of the time it isn't light at this time of year.


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## gbtyke

gbtyke, are you saying that the direct mains connection will charge both my leisure and motor battery, I was under the impression that mains only charged the leisure and ran the fridge etc I can find no info that it charges the motor battery. 

I cannot find any details for 2002 but my 2004 and the 2003 brochure show the same panel over the door with a battery button to select which battery is in use or being charged.

No cannot charge both batteries together - either one or the other.


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## Mrplodd

My 2003 Dakota is the same, button to the right of the On/off button on Mr Sargents control panel (if pressed) diverts everything to and from the starter battery. Thats why you can scroll through the panels menu to see both leisure and starter battery voltages. 

If you would like me to talk you through it send a pm and I will let you have a phone number (happy to help)


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## prog54

Thanks again guys for all this help.
Just to explain, my 2002 model has a ZIG panel which has a battery voltage button and battery current button, although it does note say, the handbook seems to imply that these only refer to the leisure battery which I think this is charged either buy direct 240v input or 12v charging from van battery. 
I am not sure if the van battery continues to try and charge the leisure battery when ignition is off.
A point of interest is that whilst all the ignition electrics even windows and door locks are dead, my alarm system still seems operational, would this then be running from the leisure battery.
Sorry if i'm going on but I know that if I charge the battery which is only 6months old it will only happen again so I really need to isolate all the electric fuses which contribute to its downfall, would removing all the fuses solve this?
Cheers
Terry


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## prog54

Right
I think I may have found an answer for my situation.
Buy a Halfords Smart 12V Battery Charger which when finished charging goes into maintenance mode and when voltage drops will recharge and maintain again.
I have ask manufacturers if this can be left on indefinately and the answer was YES.
You can also check via the digital display the condition of a battery even when the unit is not powered.
As I store my MH at home I can leave the charger powered as long as necessary (not suitable for those homes in storage unless you have mains power)
The only draw back is its cost at £57.00 but worth it if it solves the problem.
I would be interested if anyone has experience of this unit or if this answer is a dangerous route to take.

Regards
Terry


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## prog54

Sorry to trouble again
I have a 2002 Autotrail Mohican on 316 Mercedes body.
I have now got a battery charger but I am sure I have read somewhere that you should not charge a Mercedes battery with all the terminal connections in place.
I think I have also seen that if the battery is below 3v the charger won't work so you can jump lead the battery, prior to charging fully, but again if the terminals are still connected damage can be done to the van electrics.
Is the above correct or have I got the wrong end of the stick. 

regards
terry


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## Perseus

Bump 

I too,was hoping for a reply to this post.


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## Mrplodd

If it was me I would disconnect the live starter battery terminal, connect the Halfords charger and see what happens.

Cant knack the van electrics 'cos the battery aint connected. If the charger wont start charging then jump start the van and leave it running for half an hour (to put some juice back into it) THEN carry out the above procedure. Nothing to lose everything to gain.


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## ched999uk

Don't know about commercial Merc chassis but I know that merc cars of that age are very susceptible to damage if an attempt to start them is made from a mains powered 'booster starter'. It's something to do with poor over voltage protection on the SAM unit (a management computer). Over voltage can kill some of the expensive electronic controllers. 

Personally (and it is just a personal opinion) I think you will be fine with the Halfords charger.

I guess that if you disconnect the starter battery terminals your alarm will not be powered!!!!

I didn't see this thread early enough as I might have mentioned a 'Battery Master' . This device 
enables the normal habitation charger to top up the starter battery as necessary, as long as the habitation battery is fully charged. They are a little more expensive than your Halfords charger but to me a neater solution as you just connect your mains hook up cable and both batteries will get fully charged.


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## prog54

Hi ched999uk. Many thanks for the information.

I have returned the Battery charger and ordered a "Battery Master".

I am surprised that this product is not known about universally as it seems to be the answer to a lot of dead batteries.
I have asked the manufacturers for a brief rundown on its operation and was supplied with the following.

"When you are on the move your alternator on the van will distribute the power provided to traditionally charge your engine battery and then through your motorhome split charge system it will then charge your leisure battery circuit as well. Most vans when static and plugged into a mains electric supply will charge the leisure battery unless told otherwise to charge the engine battery. This is where the battery master comes in. The battery master will take a charge from the leisure battery and put charge into the engine battery when the leisure battery is 0.5volt higher in charge. This will also benefit for when the van is left static without a mains supply and with an alarm or stereo feed etc,, is taking charge from the engine battery, then the battery master will take the charge from the leisure battery and recover what has been used so next time you come to start the van, You can.. The battery master is powered from both your engine and leisure batteries."
It is also simple to install and remains a permanent fixture.

Lets hope it may help others.

Cheers again

Terry


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## ched999uk

Hope it helps. The battery master can also charge starter battery from a solar panel should you have one. It doesn't care where the charge comes from but it just tops up starter battery when habitation battery is full. I really don't know why all manufacturers don't use them. Especially as lots of people have issues with newer chassis with data bus systems continually drawing power.

Although our MH is 2001 and not a posh one it's control panel has a battery master and solar regulator built in. Which is very handy.

Hope it solves your problems.


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## VenturerDave

Have just read this series of posts as we are currently in Spain.

When I came to get our 2000 Autotrail Cheyenne from the storage compound where we keep her the battery was completely flat despite being replaced in September.

I had used a small solar panel (Maplins 2.5w) on the dashboard, plugged in to the cigarette lighter socket as the original poster had. When the RAC bloke tested the battery when he arrived it showed 1.8 volts and he could not detect any leakage in the system. No wonder my own jump leads did not work. Battery has now been exchanged for a new one so all is currently OK.

I can only assume that the solar panel had no diodes fitted to stop backward drain from the battery when it goes dark so I have chucked it now.

I have an 80w panel on the roof that charges the domestic batteries but as far as I know does not touch the engine battery.

Is there any way this can safely be wired to keep the engine battery charged as well as the two domestic ones without any risk of draining all batteries or worse still cause a fire.


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## prog54

Hi VentureDave
I have now had my Battery master installed and working, from a mains input, since middle of January and so far it's not exploded or caught fire and the engine started first time.
All you need to do is wire the unit to the negative side of the 12v split charge system and irrespective whether you charge the leisure battery by mains or solar all the excess from leisure is directed to the van battery.
I used to have a small solar on the dash direct into the van battery but even this let the battery go flat.
The other good thing for me is that with the solar I had to disconnect it from van battery before starting engine otherwise it ruined the solar apparently, but now I can just leave the new unit in place when driving, so no maintenance required.
Well worth the money IMO.
Hope this helps
Terry


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## PeterMac

My mh is under a cover all winter so solar panel not an option. Bought a Ring Smartcharge 4 which keeps the battery topped up and goes into maintenance mode when it is fully charged. Attached it to the vehicle battery. About £35. Worked without even a visit all through the winter. DO NOT buy the Smartcharge 12. It does not work in this application.

Put the internal charger on for about a week for the leisure batteries. Bit of a smell and I'm not sure they appreciated it.


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## raynipper

Luckily I keep my van at home and plugged in all the time. This helps prolong the life of all batteries.
But if I could not keep the van at home and had to resort to a storage yard without any power, I would remove all the batteries if leaving the van for more than a few days. Partly so I could keep them on charge at home and partly to make stealing the van far more difficult.
Double edged sword.

Ray.


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