# LPG - Cold Weather Problems



## trevorf (May 16, 2005)

Last summer we bought our 6 month old Apache in a private deal. It had the full gaslow conversion (2 X 13Kg cylinders with fill up connector fitted to gas locker door). 

Recently we have had problems with low gas pressure on the cooker rings and at on one trip the boiler would not light at all. Both cylinders are showing plenty of gas left on the gauge. I tried topping up but only managed to fit £3.20 worth in !! 

Is LPG less efficient than propane at low temperatures or do you think we have a problem with the regulator? 

Trevor


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## autostratus (May 9, 2005)

Seem to remember being told that autogas is a mixture of butane and propane. I suppose it depends on the proportions as to how far down the temperature has to drop before your gas is affected.

No doubt there'll be a more technical answer along soon.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

If you warm the cylinder and the problem goes away it is an accumulation of butane. If the flame is still low it's probably the regulator.

Dave


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## Maxonian (May 13, 2005)

Hi,

I think autostratus is right. This is, I believe, a known problem with LPG used for habitaion purposes. The butane component of LPG freezes at about 0°C, and topping up with new LPG simply increases the butane proportion, making the problem even worse.

Raymond


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*LPG*

Hi

As far as I know, LPG bought in this country is a mix of Propane and a small amount of butane.

LPG on the continent is about a 50/50 split. It could even have a higher butane content in the summer than the winter.

I use the Gaslow system and have had no probs. I started with LPG bought in the winter in the UK and topped up with Italian stuff.

I have seen on the web somewhere detailed info re the mixture.

I will try to find and and advise accordingly

Rapide561


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## trevorf (May 16, 2005)

Thanks rapide 561, that may be it.
I think the previous owner had just returned from the continent before selling the van to us and we have not used much gas up until now so maybe there is a high proportion of butane in the tanks.

Guess we may have to empty the tanks and refill with British LPG.

Dave, thanks, good thinking, I will try warming up the cylinders and see what happens.

Trevor


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## Rapide561 (Oct 1, 2005)

*LPG*

Hi Trevor

I cant find any further link on the net.

However I am sure there is more info on previous posts on MHF

Rapide561


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## trevorf (May 16, 2005)

Thanks Rapide

I found previous posts explaining that in cold weather the propane burns off leaving butane behind so gradually incresing the butane content to the point where it does not work.

Also found previous posts suggesting faulty regulators are quite common.

I will have to follow Dave's suggestion and somehow warm up the cylinders to see if this cures the problem, didn't fancy messing around with it today though because its snowing here 8O 8O 8O 

Trevor


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## 92046 (May 1, 2005)

*Gas*

Hi Try a hot water bottle, if you can boil the water,

No not in bed :lol: on the tank :lol:

Colin


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## trevorf (May 16, 2005)

Many thanks Dave & Colin. 

Put hot water bottle between the two cylinders, left for 10 mins - gas pressure now fine and boilers lights up no problem. Must be too high butane content in cylinders. 

Thanks to this forum saved on a visit to dealer service centre and/or cost of new gas regulator. 

Well worth the subscription for this post alone       

Trevor


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## 92180 (May 1, 2005)

What about a cylinder blanket to keep it a bit warmer. Or heat trace if very cold, you will need mains hook up for that.

i had an LPG car and living in Scotland it sometimes get cold. I had no problem with it in the winter . The tank was in the spare wheel well.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

No, insulation is the last thing you need; it will make it worse. Heat input, fine. More propane, fine.

Your car would have had a liquid take-off so you wouldn't experience the problem.

Dave


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## trevorf (May 16, 2005)

Having electric hook up is not an issue as we have one electric plate on the hob, electric heating for the hot water and a fan heater.

I think the problem is the last owner filled the gaslow cylinders in France so the butane content is too high. Will have to empty one cylinder and re fill it here which is mostly Propane.

Trevor


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## 91645 (May 1, 2005)

Well I ran into the same problem this winter at an outside temperature of -10 degree C. Last time I filled my LPG tank was in Italy near Venice in the summer with a lot of butane in it. Well it got cold and unfortunately the diesel fuel fired Webasto did want to continue firing ( Battery problem.......). I had to start the engine.................
John


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Same problem for us,

Unlike UK, where all refills are virtually all propane, its standard practice for refills on the continent to have a varying content of butane and propane mixed together, even down in the colder alpine areas.
To solve the problem I took a branch off our blown air and ducted it into the top of the gas compartment which keeps the bottles nice and warm and allows the butane element to burn off as well as the propane. We had no problems this year in similar temperatures to kleinejohan.

pete.


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## trevorf (May 16, 2005)

Hi Pete

Good idea, but if its too cold surely you cannot fire up the boiler to heat up the cylinders in the first place ? :? 

Trevor


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Hi Trevor,

Here's how I understand it works - any gaseous boffins out there please correct me if i'm wrong...

If the tank was all butane and zero propane then yes that would happen but the likelyhood of that is quite remote i think.
As long as there is some propane in the tank it will fire up - then when the gas compartment is warm the butane will start to gas and be used as well as the propane.

pete.


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## trevorf (May 16, 2005)

Sounds good to me pete, but my boiler will not light at all unless I first apply heat to gas cylinders. Fine when I have electric hook up to boil the kettle and fill hot water bottle but without electric I am up the paddle without a creek  

Trevor


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## peejay (May 10, 2005)

Going by that then you must have 100% butane in your bottle - if there was any propane in the bottle it would separate from the butane and produce the required vapour to light.
If you warm the cylinder and it lights, does it go of again when the bottle cools down, if so then that points towards '100% butane'.

pete.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

What surprised me when I did a quick Google to look into this, was how small a propane fraction is required to make the problem go away in practice. For example, just a 20% propane contribution gives the same vapour pressure at -7 degC as pure butane does at +10 degC.

http://www.altenergy.com/PDF Files/PropDataPdf.PDF
http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Mixtures.htm

What I haven't figured out is how to calculate the temperature below which you end up at pure butane irrespective of the initial propane fraction.

Dave


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## trevorf (May 16, 2005)

Thanks for the links Dave, and I thought I was being technical putting a hot water bottle between the cylinders 8O 8O 8O 

Guess I must have burnt off all the propane during the start of the cold weather and now have only butane left. 

Only option is to completly drain a cylinder and refill it. 

Trevor


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