# 3.5 tonne wt limit signs



## Gretchibald (Jul 22, 2011)

Seeking clarification on the exact meaning of those wt limit signs ie do they mean no vehicles with a plated wt exceeding 3.5 tonnes or is it referring to an actual gross weight of a vehicle. Probably the same law in UK but I was particularly interested for France where they are at the approach roads to nearly every town/village.


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## bognormike (May 10, 2005)

i've always taken it to mean plated at +3.5t.


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## SunsetLancs (Mar 11, 2014)

No expert on French signs but as a UK highway engineer I know that it is anything OVER the weight shown. Don't tend to have 3.5 tonnes in this country but an extract from the UK traffic signs manual (as below) shows that the key phrase is "A Prohibition of goods vehicles *exceeding* the maximum gross weight indicated" So if you are the weight indicated you are fine.

As you would expect there is a "European standard" so I would expect the same to be true in France - but I am not offering to appear as expert witness in your defense!

5.16 The sign to diagram 622.1A may indicate
7.5 or 18 tonnes. 7.5 tonnes is the more common
weight limit to be signed as this includes all heavy
goods vehicles with the rear red and yellow
markings (including LONG VEHICLE). This aids
vehicle recognition for enforcement purposes.
The larger vehicle of 18 tonnes is one of the sizes
included in the Departmental Standard BD 21/01
"The Assessment of Highway Bridges and
Structures" (see para 1.3) and is the heaviest rigid
vehicle that may be driven on two axles, again
making recognition and enforcement easier.
622.1A Prohibition of goods vehicles exceeding
the maximum gross weight indicated
"7.5T" may be varied to "18T".


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## Gretchibald (Jul 22, 2011)

What, nobody knows or maybe the question was too vague. So in laymans terms , if I am driving a MH plated at 3.8 tonne GVW but it's empty and actually weighs 3.2 tonnes, can I legally drive down a road which has a 3.5 tonne wt limit sign on it.


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## daffodil (Aug 7, 2014)

Legally No, but who is going to check on such a tight margin .I have one near my house here in the Creuse its to stop big artics and the like not people who dont look over the weight, mind if you met a gendarme on a bad day he might not be nice :wink:


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## SunsetLancs (Mar 11, 2014)

Sorry but as the quote from the Traffic Signs Manual makes clear, it's all about "easy" enforcement so it's the plated weight, not the actual weight.

Hey, don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger!!


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## bigtree (Feb 3, 2007)

Came back from Spain through the Somport tunnel towards Oloron Sainte Marie and between 2 villages with a 3.5t limit was a section of road with a 7.5t limit??????????


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> Gretchibald said:
> 
> 
> > What, nobody knows or maybe the question was too vague. So in laymans terms , if I am driving a MH plated at 3.8 tonne GVW but it's empty and actually weighs 3.2 tonnes, can I legally drive down a road which has a 3.5 tonne wt limit sign on it.
> ...


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

> rayc posted..............I am sure that Mr Plodd, who is an expert on these things, has said that if there is a silhouette of a lorry on the sign then the limit only applies to commercial vehicles. If it is a straight forward roundel with the weight on it then it applies to all vehicles.


Ray,

If there is a sillouette of a lorry on the sign, then the displayed weight applies to goods vehicles. Other commercial vehicles such as PSV/PCVs are excluded from the prohibition, regardless of their weight.

For example, we have an historic bridge near us, which cleary displays a 7.5T Goods Vehicle weight limit, but that does not prohibit a 12T double decker bus from driving over it. I have often had to use a 7.5T route in a bus or coach on school runs and/or stage carriage (fares) routes.

Cheers,

Jock.


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## Gretchibald (Jul 22, 2011)

Yes , that's what I thought but was hoping for the other. Haven't been caught or anything but came across the scenario quite often of , should I drive on or take a detour off route . Judging by the amount of Mh's I've seen on these restricted roads showing the 50, 80, 90 signs on the back , most are just driving on . I'm not admitting to anything.


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

My understanding is:

The weight referred to is the plated weight, not actual weight.
If a goods vehicle is shown on the sign it only applies to goods vehicles - not M/Hs.
If no goods vehicle is show it applies to everyone.


Most French weight limit signs are conditional (usually sauf riverains") which means "except for residents". In this case, if you're pulled up, just tell the Gendarme that you're going to (or looking for) the municipal campsite or aire. If you're staying on the campsite or aire you're a resident.

If the sign just has the 3.5t script in a red circle then it's a safety limit applying to all vehicles and it may be risky to proceed.


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## Gretchibald (Jul 22, 2011)

Most French weight limit signs are conditional (usually sauf riverains") which means "except for residents". In this case, if you're pulled up, just tell the Gendarme that you're going to (or looking for) the municipal campsite or aire. If you're staying on the campsite or aire you're a resident.

That was the plan, great minds think alike.


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## prof20 (Jan 11, 2007)

rayc said:


> > Gretchibald said:
> >
> >
> > > What, nobody knows or maybe the question was too vague. So in laymans terms , if I am driving a MH plated at 3.8 tonne GVW but it's empty and actually weighs 3.2 tonnes, can I legally drive down a road which has a 3.5 tonne wt limit sign on it.
> > ...


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## gaspode (May 9, 2005)

> Some of those signs, (Roundel with weight) have been erected recently in my local Tesco Extra car park. Always a few motorhomes loading up.
> 
> Roger


I suspect that if they're being used in a private car park then ignoring them would not be a legally enforceable as a criminal offence. It would be up to Tesco to bring a civil action against you to enforce them (very unlikely).

On the other hand it's always a very remote possibility that there may be some hidden weakness in part of the car park surface - proceed with caution. :wink:


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## Christine600 (Jan 20, 2011)

Here in Norway it's actual weight that counts when you pass weight limit signs. 

And since other traffic regulations are the same all over Europe/Eu I would be surprised if this isn't the rule all over Europe.


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## jonegood (Nov 5, 2007)

IMHO it is normally plated gross weight that it referred to,

therefore preventing a uncoupled artic tractor unit using a road with a 7.5t limit. or somebody arguing that they were only partially loaded. 

Most of these limits are devised to prevent lorries going places where the locals dont want them. Ive never heard an argument suggesting that an area has a problem with the weights of Motorhomes.


HMG does not share its vehicle files with any other country or vice versa. So the France situation is only an issue if you get stopped and they look at your plate.

edit to add: On occasions when I'm called upon to put my case (erroneously as we are technically 4.5t) for class 2 at the peage booth, they invariably count the wheels. I imagine if you are on 4 wheels you would be a bit unlucky to get stopped for 3.5 tonnes, but then I would use the looking for the aire argument.


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## peedee (May 10, 2005)

I am over 3.5 tons and have been stopped by the Gendarmes in a 3.5 ton limit. They only asked if I was trying to get to the campsite and when I said yes they told me the campsite was closed due to flooding and directed me to where there was another campsite just out of town!
peedee


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## BrianJP (Sep 17, 2010)

My MH is plated at 3.4T.
However when driving in France on roads with the 3.5T speed limit at over 80Kph I frequently get flashed by motorists who think I am speeding or shouldn't be overtaking.


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## goldi (Feb 4, 2009)

Morning folks,

Camera technology is more likely to catch you in uk.



norm


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Apologies, slight digression from weights but still on prohibition limits:

I am always intrigued as to whom the authorities think they are fooling with the width restriction of 2m sign 'Except for access' - there is obviously no physical constraint, just a desire to deter. My reason for 'access' is to 'look for a local pub/newspaper shop/toilet' etc.

Geoff


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Regarding the 3.5T sign with a lorry silhouette, my van is 7.49T revenue weight, taxation class Private HGV, but body type is "Motor Caravan", all on the V5C.

Can I pass the sign? 

Dave


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

DABurleigh said:


> Regarding the 3.5T sign with a lorry silhouette, my van is 7.49T revenue weight, taxation class Private HGV, but body type is "Motor Caravan", all on the V5C.
> 
> Can I pass the sign?
> 
> Dave


Yes DABs................but you knew that anyway. :wink:

Cheers,

Jock.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

I didn't actually! The Highway Code sign says "No goods vehicles
over maximum gross weight shown (in tonnes) except for loading 
and unloading".

I am a "Heavy Goods Vehicle", though also a Private one and a Motor Caravan. To a mere layperson like me I therefore AM a Goods Vehicle, as that is what I am taxed as (there is no option). 

Dave


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## daffodil (Aug 7, 2014)

Dave, what does your Insurance Class you as :?: regards David


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> DABurleigh said:
> 
> 
> > I am a "Heavy Goods Vehicle", though also a Private one and a Motor Caravan. To a mere layperson like me I therefore AM a Goods Vehicle, as that is what I am taxed as (there is no option).
> ...


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Thank you! Would you know offhand where I could find that on a Gov website? They say ignorance of the law is no defence but even a Google-meister like me can lose the will to live when dealing with arbitrary bureaucracy!  

Dave


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> DABurleigh said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you! Would you know offhand where I could find that on a Gov website? They say ignorance of the law is no defence but even a Google-meister like me can lose the will to live when dealing with arbitrary bureaucracy!
> ...


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## wakk44 (Jun 15, 2006)

rayc said:


> > DABurleigh said:
> >
> >
> > > I am a "Heavy Goods Vehicle", though also a Private one and a Motor Caravan. To a mere layperson like me I therefore AM a Goods Vehicle, as that is what I am taxed as (there is no option).
> ...


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Steve - Which is why I said earlier I had no choice over the P/HGV - no CO2 on final stage CoC.

daffodil - The Safeguard certificate, schedule and Statement of Facts doesn't say - just VIN (then Reg), cc etc.

Dave


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> quote="wakk44"]
> Not sure about this Ray,I have read somewhere(can't find it now)that says the VED on new motorhomes is determined by emissions.


The VED class that vehicles are put into has nothing to do with speed limits etc. It is the body type on the V5c that matters;


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

DABurleigh said:


> Thank you! Would you know offhand where I could find that on a Gov website? They say ignorance of the law is no defence but even a Google-meister like me can lose the will to live when dealing with arbitrary bureaucracy!
> 
> Dave


Dave

I wa equally frustrated as both the Highway Code and Dft websites only gave partial information and referred to a booklet on orad signs that could be purchased from bookshops - what the hell are we paying government for?

However, from European agreed categories Motorcaravans are Category M1 (special purpose)

Goods vehicles are Category N , i.e designed primarily for the carriage of goods.

My intrpretation of the signing is that if the sign depicts a lorry it does not apply to MHs (Category M). I cannot rmember seeing a 3.5t limit showing a lorry silhouette.

However if it only shows 3.5t I presume it applies to all vehicles over that weight, including a Humvee(if it is over)

Geoff


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Indeed, though for me at 7.49t it makes no difference - 30/50/60/70.

What is the definition of unladen weight for a motor caravan, for those nearer 3.5t GVW for whom it may be more relevant?

Dave


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Geoff, I wonder how well briefed on these illogical subtleties are the policemen who might stop me? :-(

Dave


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> [quote="DABurleigh"
> What is the definition of unladen weight for a motor caravan, for those nearer 3.5t GVW for whom it may be more relevant?
> 
> Dave


The Unladen Weight of a motor vehicle in the UK is defined as "The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it's not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.
It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it's used on a road.
It doesn't include the weight of the fuel or, if it's an electric vehicle, the batteries.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

That is the weight that applies for speed limits of motor caravans.

This of course is not the same as the MIRO figure used by motorhome converters who calculate in accordance with European Directive EC92/21


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

How the heck do they enforce it in principle? Drag you to a weighbridge and empty your fuel, etc. where? 

Even the Vehicle weights explained page doesn't cover revenue weight on the V5C.

Dave


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> > My intrpretation of the signing is that if the sign depicts a lorry it does not apply to MHs (Category M). I cannot rmember seeing a 3.5t limit showing a lorry silhouette.
> ...


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

DABurleigh said:


> How the heck do they enforce it in principle? Drag you to a weighbridge and empty your fuel, etc. where?
> Dave


Unlikely as most speed enforcement does not lead to a stop at the time of the offence.
Mr Plodd explained that in the event that a NIP is issued and the driver believes that the the speed recorded was within the limit for his motor caravan as it has an Unladen Weight of 3.5t or less then that is the defence. It is then up to prosecution to prove otherwise.

As has been said on this forum many times, the speed limit thresholds for motor caravans, vans, car derived vans and dual type vehicles is absolute nonsense.


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

And there was me thinking speed limits were a safety issue, based on evidence.....


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> DABurleigh said:
> 
> 
> > And there was me thinking speed limits were a safety issue, based on evidence.....
> ...


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

Yes ;-)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/9324/final-report.pdf

And the Govt is consulting on over 7.5t dual carriageway 50mph to 60mph, too.

Dave


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Rayc's information as he has posted it is 100% correct in respect of weight limits.

if it has JUST the logo 3.5T then the restriction applies tl ALL vehicles exceeding that weight,(note EXCEEDING!! so if you are plated at 3500Kg its doesn't apply to you, if you are plated at 3501Kg then it does.

As for speed limits its the UNLADEN weight of 3050Kg applies (and there is nowhere anyone can get that info!!) so if you are ticketed for excess 50 all you need to do is write a letter saying 

"My vehicles unladen weight is under 3050Kg, if you wish to proceed with this prosecution I will see you in court where I shall plead not guilty AND claim costs against you" 

Andy


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

rayc said:


> > nicholsong said:
> >
> >
> > > My intrpretation of the signing is that if the sign depicts a lorry it does not apply to MHs (Category M). I cannot rmember seeing a 3.5t limit showing a lorry silhouette.
> ...


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

> rayc" posted..........If the UK sign depicts a lorry then it is an Environmental Limit and will only apply to commercial vehicles over 7.5t .


Sorry Ray, that should read "will only apply to Goods Vehicles", and not "will only apply to Commercial Vehicles".

As I tried to explain previously, buses and coaches (which are also classed as commercial vehicles) are exempt the restriction, where the sillouette of a lorry is pictured on the weight restriction/prohibition sign.

Another example of that, is when an official from Peterborough City Council's Traffic Department tried to inforce the restriction on a coach, I took home some evenings, due to an early start the next day. When repeatedly pointed out to him, that the vehicle was not a "Goods Vehicle", he relented and admitted that he had got it wrong...........but still insisted that I shouldn't park within that restricted zone. :roll:

It is my honest opinion, that the whole legislation is a minefield, as are the rules on licences too.

Regards,

Jock.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> > Ray
> ...


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Spot on again Ray!

The rules are the same across the EU. Silhouette of lorry and weight applies to commercial/goods vehicles, weight ONLY shown it applies to everything that exceeds the (plated) weight shown regardless of what the vehicle is, motorhome, car, minibus, motorcycle (if it's REALLY big) No ifs, no ands, no buts it's as simple as that


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> JockandRita said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry Ray, that should read "will only apply to Goods Vehicles", and not "will only apply to Commercial Vehicles".
> ...


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Jock

I agree that it is a mess.

How did the Government of the UK ever designate the right to local authorities to legislate for moving traffic?

For a citizenship to obey the law there must be certainty.

There is no certainty for a driver transitting 20 local councils in a one day journey.

And if any of you have followed Andy Strangeway's campaign against illegal parking restrictions and signs in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire you will not be surprised to find that many TROs, which local councils try to enforce, do not properly comply with the authorising primary legislation or the Orders in Council, or have not had the appropriate approval, or the signs do not meet the approved requirements.

The local councils are being run by the lunatics - and we are paying them. So, two sets of lunatics!!

In my opinion the safety of the roads would be better assigned to bodies like the Highways Agency and DVSA (forget DVLA - That is a tax dept.) 

Geoff


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

DABurleigh said:


> Geoff, I wonder how well briefed on these illogical subtleties are the policemen who might stop me? :-(
> 
> Dave


Dave I am responding because you asked me a direct question'

There are ex-police officers on here who could answer more clearly, but I suspect matters of weight restrictions they would probably leave to DVSA, but do that outfit want to enforce local TROs through a village?

Even'Which TRO then, whether it be a policeman or DVSA officer I am speaking to, I can imagine the conversation going something like this:-

'Which TRO have I breached? Which local authority area does it apply to? Where is the local authority boundary? When was it approved by the Secretary of State? Do you have the reference?

'No Sir, but you just passed a sign which clearly stated no vehicles >3.5t

Yes officer, shall we start again -'Which TRO .......

Maybe that is why there ar not too many stops.

Geoff


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## H1-GBV (Feb 28, 2006)

As I turned off the A1067 at Norwich (52.689058, 1.190330) towards Ringland in the car yesterday I was able to impress my wife with my newfound knowledge:
"that sign means the 7.5T limit only applies to commercial vehicles. You could even drive a 12T double-decker bus down here."

The sign was conveniently repeated here (52.679732, 1.176173) so she was able to see it clearly.

After rounding a couple of moderately sharp bends we began the descent (this is Norfolk, so we are not talking "1 in 4" :lol: ) towards Ringland bridge over the R Wensum. The road is wide enough for 2 cars to pass easily, but in the MH I would slow down to get past white-van man. The hedges are high and close to the road; there are no field gates.

The reason for the weight limit is clearly marked just a few yards short of it (52.678538, 1.167055): "Weak Bridge" declares the rectangular sign, above a grey rectangle containing a round white sign with red border, declaring "7.5T" BUT NOT inside a grey outline of a truck! 

So, if *you *were there (in very heavy MH, bus or whatever) would you proceed or reverse for approx. 0.5m? - Gordon


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Mrplodd said:


> As for speed limits its the UNLADEN weight of 3050Kg applies (and there is nowhere anyone can get that info!!)
> Andy


It is set out here?

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Motorhomes or motor caravans (not more than 3.05 tonnes maximum unladen weight)	30 (48km)	60 (96)	70 (112)	70 (112)

Motorhomes or motor caravans (more than 3.05 tonnes maximum unladen weight)	30 (48km)	50 (80)	60 (96)	70 (112)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Peter


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Yep

Paragraphs four and five. 

The daft thing is that its UNLADENED weight thats the deciding factor and there is nowhere that figure can be obtained from for a motorhome !!


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Peter

I think you may still be jet-lagged or wa it the California sun(or fog)? so you are excused.

I think Andy meant there is nowhere to find out the unladen weight of any particular MH, not the law as written.

Geoff


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## listerdiesel (Aug 3, 2012)

Yes, but it was slightly ambiguous 

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unladen weight

The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it's not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.

It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it's used on a road.

It doesn't include the weight of the fuel or, if it's an electric vehicle, the batteries.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So anyone can find out their own vehicle's unladen weight if they are interested.

Note that a spare wheel, jack and wheelbrace are considered to be normally part of the vehicle's unladen weight, but I can imagine some marginal vehicles losing them for the trip to the weighbridge.

Our Mercedes is 4000kg unladen at present.

Peter


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

"but I can imagine some marginal vehicles losing them for the trip to the weighbridge"

Along with fresh water, waste water, black water, LPG, engine running on diesel vapours, etc.

Dave


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> listerdiesel said:
> 
> 
> > So anyone can find out their own vehicle's unladen weight if they are interested.
> ...


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

listerdiesel said:


> Yes, but it was slightly ambiguous
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained
> 
> ...


Peter

Did you note that the link you quoted was in the section relating to 'Driving Licences' and starts the first paragraph stating so?

Very curious, as I have never seen reference to 'Unladen weight' in licence legislation.

Geoff


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...


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## JockandRita (Jun 1, 2005)

> H1-GBV posted..........So, if *you *were there (in very heavy MH, bus or whatever) would you proceed or reverse for approx. 0.5m? - Gordon


>>After the turning<<

>>At the bridge<<

That's a tricky one to answer Gordon, especially if driving a coach or a bus, because both signs cause confusion, ie, at the turning the sign tells me that as a 12T coach or bus, the restriction doesn't apply to me, but at the bridge, the sign clearly indicates that it does apply. With a coach load of passengers, I would reverse back, despite that action being against the rules, as you are not supposed to reverse without someone watching you back (but most of us do.......very carefully). If carrying school children, asking one of them to watch me back is absolutely and unreservedly *out of the question*, so I wouldn't have any choice but to reverse back wihilst carrying passengers. I have a duty of care, and asking children to disembark whilst I turned round, is also out of the question, as I consider that action to be placing an even greater risk to ther safety and well being.

If I was running empty, I may take the risk of crossing the bridge, knowing that the unladen weight is close to the 7.5T.

Regards,

Jock.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

rayc said:


> > nicholsong said:
> >
> >
> > > [
> ...


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

JockandRita said:


> > H1-GBV posted..........So, if *you *were there (in very heavy MH, bus or whatever) would you proceed or reverse for approx. 0.5m? - Gordon
> 
> 
> >>After the turning<<
> ...


Were I confronted with the problem maybe I would call the Police to

a) sort out the immediate problem of providing reversing guidance

and

b) getting them to 'thump' the local authority for wasting police time by bad signage.

Although, why had not police traffic patrols not noticed the discrepancy before? possibly because they are not worried about weight limits and think it is a DVSA(VOSA) matter?

Geoff

Geoff


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

> nicholsong said:
> 
> 
> > Ray
> ...


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

Ray

It surprises me not.

Do ou know that DVLA have advised me that they do not have a 'Legal Department' and that is covered by the Dft Legal Department at Marsham St.

When I referred the question to the Dft legal Department, they told me to contact DVLA :roll: 

I solved the problem another way - and I will not disclose how.

Sometimes anarchy can be more effective than Civil Servants - if not always.

I do believe in the Rule of Law but not as practised by some departments of government.

Geoff


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## DABurleigh (May 9, 2005)

So many issues are an analogy to A-frames, where no-one can confidently summarise the law in various practical scenarios, and until there is a court case for a precedent to give case law, things will remain that way. Therefore all you can get is opinion, no matter how professional, and even legal departments will say this should not be construed as legal advice, so as not to bring liability upon themselves.

Great being a mere plebs in the chaotic web various professionals have woven, isn't it? :-(

Dave


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