# Validity of UK Driving Licences after March 2019



## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

This topic comes from another forum.

A question arises from an article in the Guardian stating that UK Driving Licences will not be valid in the EU after 29th March 2019.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-wave-of-red-tape-for-uk-drivers-and-hauliers

The possibility of the invalidity may be negated by an agreement within the Exit negotiations that accept that UK Licences will be accepted as valid after the date, just as Swiss Licences are acccepted in the EU. However it is possible that we have to consider that this might not happen.

Whilst the current *format* of the photocard licence was agreed as an EU standard, the acceptance of licences generally was agreed under various Treaties back to the '40s and before, to which there are some 126 signatories worldwide.

These Treaties will still exist whether UK is in or out of the EU. As far as I can ascertain the Treaties only refer to paper Licences, which would still cover many countries. I do not know whether the Treaties have made provision for accepting Photocard Licences.

If the EU countries decide not to accept UK Photocard Licences after March 2019, they are still presumably bound to accept paper Licences under the Treaties.

Of course UK withdrew the requirement for paper Licences, except for those people still not in possession of Photocard Licences, which I think is only those who have not moved address nor reached 70, since there was no event that required their licences to be renewed.

Therefore the vast majority of holders of UK Driving Licences have no old-style paper Licence.

I have a paper 'Counterpart Driving Licence'(D740), which was presumably issued, alongside the Photocard Licence(before withdrawal), when I renewed my C1 licence at 70 in 2012, since the Provisional Entitlements expire in 2015.This is coloured green in the heading and footnotes, but pink between them. It carries the same number as my Photocard Licence but has no expiry date, other than for the 'Provisional Entitlement'.

I imagine that many other drivers are in a similar position. It is not clear whether this 'Counterpart Driving Licence' in conjunction with an EU style Photocard Licence would be acceptable in a EU country after March 2019.

If, as the Guardian article suggest the UK Photocard Licences will not be valid, how will the UK procede? Issue new Paper Licences?

Just minutiae of Exit negotiations.

Please stick to the subject of licences and not switch this to a general discussion of Exit.

Geoff


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Has been discussed recently and there is the possibility of International Driving Permits being required again (as they used to be with Spain). It may also be that there will be the reintoriduction of "Bail Bonds" and Green Cards since reciprocal insurance arrangements may no longer exist.......

There are an awful lot of things that may have to be renegiotiated f no deal is reached but presumably if any sort of deal is agreed these hings will continue?

Sadly common sense does not seem to be high on the agenda for either side in the "negotiations"......

A great deal still remains to be done and I have my doubts that many of these so called minutiae have been raised at all yet.

What will happen as regards EU HGV drivers in the UK? Or vice versa.....

Under the IDP scheme the NUMBER of hours of driving for commercial drivers is laid down (apparently) and it varies between 300 per year and 1340 but exactly who gets what entitlement seems clouded in obscurity.....

MH drivers? No idea as if over 3.5t will that be classified as driving an HGV or _"poids lourdes"_ as such vehicles are classified here..... I genuinely have no clue at all....


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## dghr272 (Jun 14, 2012)

This was mentioned on the Brexit thread a few days ago, one response presumed the UK would threaten a tit for tat response, as a starting point for discussion/negotiation I assume, apparently it was missed from the UK Brexit planning, no surprise there then.

Terry


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

I wonder how we all managed in the pre 1973 days for international travel? It never appeared to be a problem to me to join my unit in Germany via Belgium and Holland and to travel regularly between them. No European Directive on Driving Licences then but we all managed ok. Likewise for insurance a Green Card was cheap.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

If you were joining a forces unit you were covered by an agreement as one of the "Supervising Powers" started in 1945/6 whether those powers still exist I somehow doubt.....

In those dim and distant days cars bought by serving personnel had different registration numbers to either German or UK one's and this as used by the IRA to target attacks - hence that practice was stopped in the early 190's I believe.....


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

Penquin said:


> If you were joining a forces unit you were covered by an agreement as one of the "Supervising Powers" started in 1945/6 whether those powers still exist I somehow doubt.....
> 
> In those dim and distant days cars bought by serving personnel had different registration numbers to either German or UK one's and this as used by the IRA to target attacks - hence that practice was stopped in the early 190's I believe.....


Just a bog standard UK driving licence just like those holiday makers who toured the Continent. We were never the occupying powers of Belguim and Holland and were never called that in Germany in the 70's. I see plenty of Turkish lorries on my travels so it must be possible to travel in the EU without an EU licence. I have even spoken to Australian and US citizens who are driving.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

Another bit of “Operation Fear?” 

I for one cannot see there will be any falling off a cliff in March next year. There is far too much commerce between the U.K. and the mainland of Europe for M Barnier and his cohorts to bu**er about with something as mundane as driving licence regs. 

It may well be that, over a period of time, driving licence regs MAY change, but, what would be the point if that? The harmonisation of driving licences has worked perfectly well for many years. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. 

As far as car insurance is concerned I have just (as in this morning) renewed my car insurance. It expires on 8th March 2019 (had to do it early as I am out of the country on 8th March this year) No mention was made of the possibility of any “issues” with foreign travel after 1st March 2019. 

To quote an oft use phrase I am going to “Carry on and don’t panic”!

Andy


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

Geoff, seeing as you spend a considerable amount of time in Poland, would it not be a possibility to get a Polish licence?
I changed mine to a French one and it could not have been simpler and at no cost, obviously don't know if the Polish experience would be the same.

.


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## GMJ (Jun 24, 2014)

Mrplodd said:


> Another bit of "Operation Fear?"
> 
> As far as car insurance is concerned I have just (as in this morning) renewed my car insurance. It expires on 8th March 2019 (had to do it early as I am out of the country on 8th March this year) *No mention was made of the possibility of any "issues" with foreign travel after 1st March 2019. *


It'll be next year's renewal that you may have a chat (but probably not) as it's 29/03/19 that we leave, which is after your renewal next year!

Graham:smile2:


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

Why should there be any discussions yet? 

No-one (including all those spposedly negotiating) has any clue how things will pan out..... :crying:

It MIGHT be all sweetness and light :grin2: 

or sour faces and dark glares...... :frown2:

We do not knowand are unlikely to know for at least a year..... :nerd:


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

eurajohn said:


> Geoff, seeing as you spend a considerable amount of time in Poland, would it not be a possibility to get a Polish licence?
> I changed mine to a French one and it could not have been simpler and at no cost, obviously don't know if the Polish experience would be the same.
> 
> .


John

As I understand it when one exchanges a UK licence for another county's licence they do not recognise 'grandfather' rights for C1, so I would have to take a test for 7.5t - and in Polish.

Geoff


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

nicholsong said:


> John
> 
> As I understand it when one exchanges a UK licence for another county's licence they do not recognise 'grandfather' rights for C1, so I would have to take a test for 7.5t - and in Polish.
> 
> Geoff


If you have the C1 category on the licence how do they know how you obtained it? 
I passed an HGV test for mine but let it lapse at 45 because I did not use it and needed a medical to renew it. Then I was awarded it under Grandfather rights. Good thing as I would have had to have a medical every 5 years from 45-65 and then annually to drive my Rapido under my old regime. Utter madness!


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## 747 (Oct 2, 2009)

I have been following that thread on 'the other forum' and found it most entertaining and a fund of knowledge.


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## Mrplodd (Mar 4, 2008)

GMJ said:


> It'll be next year's renewal that you may have a chat (but probably not) as it's 29/03/19 that we leave, which is after your renewal next year!
> 
> Graham:smile2:


Good point!

Andy


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

nicholsong said:


> John
> 
> As I understand it when one exchanges a UK licence for another county's licence they do not recognise 'grandfather' rights for C1, so I would have to take a test for 7.5t - and in Polish.
> 
> Geoff


Geoff, don't know about other EU countries but France definitely honours any and all categories of a UK permit, so if you have "grandfather" rights they carry over to a French permit.

For mine (and my wife) after 70, the commercial element (hire and reward) of the C1 has to have a medical every year however the recreational element is every two years.

Might be worth checking it out?

.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

I've been investigating and considering this in Spain for some time too Geoff, and my understanding is that the groups I currently have on my licence would be transferred. It's easy enough to get the answers you want here, the problem might be with what would actually be delivered, which is why I'm vacillating.

I've also been wondering about whether UK insurance companies would be happy with a policy holder having a Spanish licence and whether, after brexit, UK law will allow me to drive on it there.


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

rayc;2861546[B said:


> ]If you have the C1 category on the licence how do they know how you obtained it? [/B]
> I passed an HGV test for mine but let it lapse at 45 because I did not use it and needed a medical to renew it. Then I was awarded it under Grandfather rights. Good thing as I would have had to have a medical every 5 years from 45-65 and then annually to drive my Rapido under my old regime. Utter madness!


If the foreign licensing authority know the UK system they can tell that one has C1 'grandfather rights' from the 8250kg Train Weight restriction printed on the licence, which does not apply if one obtained the C1 category by passing the test.

Geoff


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## nicholsong (May 26, 2009)

I have also being wondering about whether one can hold a UK Driving Licence and another countries one.

Is their any UK law to stop that?

Has anyone when taking out a non-UK Licence been forced to surrender one's UK Licence to the non-UK authority? If so in which country?

Geoff


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

That apprently is the rule in France although very many peple seem to have overlooked that fact....

Now all such exchanges are dealt with by post via an office in Nantes - with a delay which appears to extend into several months.....

The French authorities are supposedly sending the UK licence back to check it's validity which may well account for the long delay as I suspect DVLA will not respond with any degree of urgency.....

Meanwhile it is debatable whether you have a valid licence or not.....

The French authroites supposedly send a document certifying what they have done - but even tha appears to be delayed for months and of course meanwhile..........?


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

nicholsong said:


> I have also being wondering about whether one can hold a UK Driving Licence and another countries one.
> 
> Is their any UK law to stop that?
> 
> ...


My understanding here in Spain is that we surrender our current licence as we apply for a new one. Maybe not though. I'll see if I can find out.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

erneboy said:


> My understanding here in Spain is that we surrender our current licence as we apply for a new one. Maybe not though. I'll see if I can find out.


The word that the EU appear to use is 'exchange' so I guess you change your UK one for a Spanish one and vice versa when you return to the UK?

Further to the discussion regarding C1 for grandfather rights I understand that the French and Germans have a similar grandfather rights system to retain pre 1997 entitlements. In the German case it is 1999 when group 3, which covered up to 7500kg, was split into B BE C1 C1E. I remember a German lady who had been given C1 when exchanging her German licence for a UK. On approaching 45 was told she would have to take a medical to retain it. In other words the UK authorities gave her C1 but with the 45 medical and 5 yearly up to 65 and then annually regime and not the grandfather rights 70 and thence 3 yearly.


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## erneboy (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes, hand in, exchange, surrender. Not really practical for anybody spending six months of the year split between two jurisdictions thus needing to do it twice a year. I doubt if that's intended and maybe it wouldn't be welcomed. I'll ask a few Brits here, though I don't often see any. Maybe Ray or Dave/Penquin could ask some in France too. It'd be interesting to know.


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## Penquin (Oct 15, 2007)

No, stays UP TO six months are currently permitted before any consideration needs to be made and f living in another EU country you are not required to excahnge licence UNLESS you have infringed the law and in France had points taken off (system in France is start with 12 lose e.g. one for speeding up to about 20% over limit that is valid i.e. removed for six month then ignored and the full 12 is restored....

So if you tried to swap your licence every six motnhs you would be greeted by a (hopefully) polite refusal you might also end up with no licence due to administration issue and delays as it is illegal to drive without being in possession of a valid driving licence (same in UK I believe?)

Hence the major problems with trying to align the information with the UK's system......


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

nicholsong said:


> I have also being wondering about whether one can hold a UK Driving Licence and another countries one.
> 
> Is their any UK law to stop that?
> 
> ...


Geoff I can confirm that you have to surrender your UK licence when being granted a French one.

Re some comments on people having more than one licence i.e. UK and French, there are quite a few dodgy UK characters living in France, many flout the law ref vehicle registration and I am aware of a person that has two UK licences, apparently achieved by having access to two UK addresses as their registered abode, obviously illegal but doesn't seem to deter them.
So no doubt if they apply for a French one they can surrender one of their UK ones.

.


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## rayc (Jun 3, 2008)

eurajohn said:


> I am aware of a person that has two UK licences, apparently achieved by having access to two UK addresses as their registered abode, obviously illegal but doesn't seem to deter them.
> 
> .


I wonder how they get two different driver id numbers for line 5 of the licence?


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## raynipper (Aug 4, 2008)

We are apparently leaving the EU not the bloody universe. Why should anything change?

I changed my UK HGV driving license to a French one with similar rights about 8 years ago.
And yes we had to surrender the UK one. Although I kept a copy for my satisfaction.
We also had American licenses until they ran out last year.

We have friends in the Vienne who have changed their UK license to French and back again twice to cover the 7.5 ton facility of their motorhome.

Ray.


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## yarmouth (Nov 1, 2017)

My understanding is that in Spain when you apply for a Spanish licence when you get your Spanish one they take your UK licence and send it to Swansea.


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## eurajohn (May 9, 2005)

With reference to the driving over 3500Kgs, here in France if a person has grandfather rights they can get an endorsement on their licence that allows the driving of heavy motorhomes without the medical tests. 
A link to a report here (in French Google will help) http://www.lemondeducampingcar.fr/p...camping-car-poids-lourd-avec-le-permis-b.html


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## JanHank (Mar 29, 2015)

I haven't read all of the posts so forgive me if what I say has already been said.

Hans and I both have German driving licences, we had to hand in our paper :laugh: UK licences for them to transfer everything onto the new licence, the old UK licences were not returned to us. I am allowed to drive a 7.5 ton van, not that I would want to at my age, (no medical required after 70 as you do in the UK),
At the bottom of the licence is my GB licence number, I assume *IF* we ever returned to the UK that number will get our UK licences back.


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